	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Winter Soldier: Winter Kills 1-FB
2. Baal Note
3. Top Cow/Marvel Devil's Reign
4. New Mutants: Truth or Death
5. CA 160-162
6. Thor 210-228
7. Generation X holiday special
8. ReLoad chronology
9. Heroes Reborn Chronology
10. Exiles Annual -- where does it fit in the Exiles chronology?
11. Spider-man M/TU 79,82-85 placement
12. M
13. ASM 537-FB
14. Doctor Strange question
15. Change for Ahura and Pope: they are the same person
16. Info needed, quick, on "Hulk: Nightmerica"
17. Education of Professor Xavier
18. Ages of Marvel Characters
19. Need FF Info
20. Civil War: let's untangle the chronology...
21. obscure X-character question
22. Stan Lee Meets...
23. Martians in the MU
24. Longshot series 1-6
25. Wolverine vol3 50/2-FB?

	MC-2 Forum
26. 3 Quick corrections/additions
27. My MC2 chronology
28. Need help identifying characters
29. More minor updates

	Issue Analysis Forum
30. Giant Size Hulk vol. 2 #1 (story #2)
31. Chronology Review for Hulk vol. 3 #92-95
32. Claws #1-3
33. GHOST RIDER vol 5 #1-5
34. GENERATION X HOLIDAY SPECIAL
35. The Punisher gap books
36. Silver Surfer: Dangerous Artifacts
37. Wolverine: Evilution
38. Wolverine: Inner Fury
39. Wolverine Killing
40. Wolverine: Global Jeopardy
41. Ghost Rider #1/2
42. Knights of Pendragon Vol.1
43. Union Jack, vol 2, 1-4
44. Wolverine and the Punisher: Damaging Evidence
45. Books of Doom #1
46. Webspinners: Tales of Spider-Man 3-12, 14-18
47. Avengers Next #1-5
48. Wolverine: Origins 1-5, & misc
49. Alpha Flight 2 -1
50. Calendar; Punisher: X-Mas Special #1
51. January call for analysis
52. Calendar; Punisher MAX 37-42
53. Chronology Review for Hulk vol. 3 #96-99

	Chat Forum
54. Name of Reed's ship in FF 1?
55. Question about Beyond #6
56. Question for DHall
57. Coming from Marvel in April
58. Info needed on the Plunderer
59. Black Bolt question






Thread 1

Posted: 31 Dec 2006 03:30 pm    Post subject: Winter Soldier: Winter Kills 1-FB
By Col_Fury

Winter Soldier: Winter Kills 1 has a FlashBack to the Christmas Eve of 1944. Here's a synopsis: 

24 December, Sunday 
Winter Soldier: Winter Kills #1-FB pg1-pg3 
Bucky & Toro prepare to go to a Christmas Eve USO dance, Namor is on his way to join the Human Torch & Falworths at a dinner, and Captain America declines to go to either because he has new codes to memorize. 

Winter Soldier: Winter Kills #1-FB pg32-pg35 
Bucky makes Toro dance with a red head he had his eyes on. Steve shows up, and Bucky tells him he has a good feeling about Toro chances for the evening. 

Appearing characters: 
Captain America, Bucky, Toro, Namor, Human Torch-BTS. 

References: 
It's the Christmas Eve of 1944, and Namor mentions that the Torch is waiting for Toro at the Falworths' party. As far as I can tell, that would give Torch a BTS because we know where he is and what he's doing. We're only told where the Falsworths are, but not excatly what they're up to. 

Some placement suggestions: 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 
*WS: WK 1-FB (12/24/44) 
CA:SL2 12-FB pg23-pg29 

BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN BUCKY BARNES 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 
*WS: WK 1-FB (12/24/44) 
CA:SL2 12-FB pg23-pg29 

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
WX2 14-FB (1944) 
*WS: WK 1-FB (12/24/44) 
SAGAHT 2 

HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND 
WX2 14-FB (1944) 
*WS: WK 1-FB-BTS (12/24/44) 
SAGAHT 2 pg18-pg19pn2 

TORO/TOM RAYMOND 
CA5 3-FB (08/44) 
*WS: WK 1-FB (12/24/44) 
SAGAHT 2 pg18-pg19pn2
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Dec 2006 05:54 pm    
By SeanCurtin

If the Torch is BTS here, the Flasworths would be too, if we had an idea of which ones were at the party (most likely Spitfire and Union Jack, if the issue doesn't specify). 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Dec 2006 06:15 pm    
By Somebody

Specfies Spitfire (Namor's going just for the good food & to watch the Torch squirm when he flirts with her) and strongly implies more.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jan 2007 02:20 am    
By Col_Fury

If that's the case, here are some placement suggestions: 

UNION JACK II/BRIAN FALSWORTH 
M/U 1-FB 
*WS: WK 1-FB-BTS (12/24/44) 
MSU 9 (01/45) 

SPITFIRE/LADY JACQUELINE FALSWORTH CRICHTON 
M/U 1-FB 
M/CP 89/3-FB 
*WS: WK 1-FB-BTS (12/24/44) 
SAGAHT 2 

Thanks, guys!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 2

Posted: 01 Jan 2007 06:16 am    Post subject: Baal Note
By Enda80

This Baal was mentioned as existing as far back as the era of Kull, therefore he precedes the pharonic Egytian Baal, and should count as Baal I. In fact, he appeared before that pharonic Egytian Baal in publishing terms. 

BAAL II (a.k.a. BA'AL) 
W2 13-FB 
W2 11-BTS 
{W2 12} 
W2 13 
W2 14 
W2 15 
W2 16 
GR3 50-BTS 
BLAZE 3 
BLAZE 4 
BLAZE 5 
BLAZE 6-FB 
BLAZE 6 
BLAZE 8-BTS 
BLAZE 10 
BLAZE 11 
BLAZE 12

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jan 2007 05:22 pm    
By Col_Fury

To clarify, you're talking about Rise of Apocalypse, right? 

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Baal was mentioned as existing as far back as the era of Kull 
<<<

Where was this mentioned?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jan 2007 07:34 pm    
By Enda80

SSOC#131/2.

			*	*	*

Thread 3

Posted: 31 Dec 2006 02:04 pm    Post subject: Top Cow/Marvel Devil's Reign
By Jason Doty

I've been spending my weekend trying to place the universe to universe Devil's Reign crossover and lining the Marvel Characters up as close as possible for this to work. I have a rough estimate for placement and wondered if anyone could help in narrowing it down. I believe it would be as follows. 

Wolverine 

UX 352 
*Devil's Reign 
ELEK 10 

Elektra 

ELEK 9 
*Devil's Reign 
ELEK 10 

Ghost Rider 

V:SB 2 
*Devil's Reign 
GR3 90 

Silver Surfer 

SS3 137 
*Devil's Reign 
ASM 430 

Mephisto 

SS3 137 
*Devil's Reign 
AF2 16 

Would this placement work for all of the characters or are there plot points I'm missing?

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jan 2007 12:33 am    
By JLH

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Would this placement work for all of the characters or are there plot points I'm missing? 
<<<

The only one I can recall from that era that Devil's Reign hinged upon was Mephisto's status, and you pinned it down exactly right.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jan 2007 09:19 pm    
By Jason Doty

While I'm fairly sure these placements are close. Are there any fans of Silver Surfer or Ghost Rider that could confirm what was going on in there books at this time? Not having those in my collection makes it tough to narrow it down any further.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Jan 2007 10:17 pm    
By Hotcharokey

I don't think the following placement for Wolverine works. 

Quote: 

Wolverine 

UX 352 
*Devil's Reign 
ELEK 10 
 


I think this works better. 

Wolverine 

MHS96 
*Devil's Reign Ch. 3 
UX 342 
*Devil's Reign Ch. 4-8 
IH2 454 

MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 1996. Logan walks through the streets of the city, grumbling about what is wrong with Christmas 

GHOST RIDER/BALLISTIC (Devil's Reign Chapter 3). Wolverine is present in the Top Cow Universe. His shadow is seen in a building behind Ghost Rider and Ballistic. (Wolverine must return to the Marvel Universe between this chapter and the next chapter of Devil's Reign because he is in the Marvel Universe at the beginning of the next chapter.) 

UX 341. Occurs on Christmas Eve. Wolverine does not appear. 

UX 342. On Christmas Morning, Cyclops, Storm, Phoenix, Wolverine, and Cannonball discuss whether to help their teammates who are lost in space or remain on Earth to deal with other matters. 

UX 343. The X-Men have been in Shi'ar space for nearly a week, therefore it is probably December 30 or 31. Wolverine does not appear. 

BALLISTIC/WOLVERINE (Devil's Reign Chapter 4). Wolverine is in New York on New Years Eve. He goes though a door at Landau, Luckman, and Lake, only to arrive in the Top Cow Universe, where it is also New Years Eve. He teams up with Ballistic. 

WOLVERINE/WITCHBLADE (Devil's Reign Chapter 5). Occurs on New Years Day. 

WITCHBLADE/ELEKTRA (Devil's Reign Chapter 6). Mephisto captures Wolverine. 

ELEKTRA/CYBLADE (Devil's Reign Chapter 7). Wolverine is Mephisto's prisoner, behind the scenes. 

SILVER SURFER/WEAPON ZERO (Devil's Reign Chapter 8). Wolverine is Mephisto's prisoner, behind the scenes. When the villain is defeated by Heatwave of Weapon Zero, Logan is released and returned home behind the scenes. 

IH2 454. Feeling alone and persecuted, the Hulk flees to the Savage Land only to encounter and battle Wolverine and Ka-Zar. When the Hulk collapses mysteriously after the battle, Wolverine decides to get him help.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Jan 2007 11:53 pm    
By Jason Doty

Using your idea Hotcharokay 

Elektra would be here between Elek 8 and ASM 124. 

Mephisto would appear here between GRWP:DD and SS3 133. 

Silver Surfer between SS125/2 and M/HOL 1996/3-f/b then between M/HOL 1996 and SS3 126. 

Can anyone offer assistance with Ghost Rider during this era? 

Also could you add in the other appearances of Wolverine in this time frame in comparison to your placement to see how well they match up to the MCP.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Jan 2007 11:53 pm    
By jephyork
Director

So, Hotcharokey, your only criteria is placing a "New Year's Eve" issue near a "Christmas" issue? 

Well, X #73 -- which takes place around the same timeframe as UX #352, Jason's original placement suggestion -- also takes place on New Year's Eve. So by your criteria, his placement is just as good as yours. 

EDIT: Hmm, also I think Wolverine was in his "feral" state during UX #342. So Jason's placement actually works *better*... 

-Jeph!

Last edited by jephyork on 03 Jan 2007 01:27 am; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jan 2007 12:12 am    
By JLH

Jason Doty wrote: 
Can anyone offer assistance with Ghost Rider during this era? 


Has to be after GR3 80, since it's the end of the storyline where he ends up in the orange costume he's wearing in Devil's Reign. But before GR 87 or so, which starts a storyline that switches his costume back to the old one. 

Course, I notice his Marvel Fanfare vol 2 appearance is in the MCP in a place that's well before he gets his orange costume, despite wearing it in that issue, so... whatever.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jan 2007 07:46 am    
By Jason Doty

In placeing this story, I started by trying to keep this series in the same year (1997) as the comics that the characters came out in. The Silver Surfer issues actually were the only ones that expanded into the (1998) publishing timeframe, but just barely. Not owning these issues makes it hard to be exact. Also, regardless of which universe the characters appeared in, I tried to keep this story arc together, rather than split it up.

			*	*	*

Thread 4

Posted: 05 Jan 2007 05:03 pm    Post subject: New Mutants: Truth or Death
By Shadowdragon

I seem to be having some trouble figuring out where the New Mutants: Truth or Death miniseries fits in the X-Force series. The chronology for sunspot put it between 62 and 63, but that doesn't seem right. I don't think it fits in until 70+, but I can't figure out exactly where it fits in. Can anyone help me out?

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jan 2007 05:21 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I agree, between #62-63 is too early -- but it can't go much later than that. Here's a little something I wrote up about the "Truth or Death" series back in May of 2003, back when the MCP had it between X-Force #70-71. 

-Jeph! 

-------- 
The current placement of the "New Mutants: Truth or Death" series has been bothering me for some time, but until recently I couldn't sit down and work out a better placement. I finally found the time, and I believe I now have a much better placement. let me know what you think. 

This three-issue series reunites the five original New Mutants  Cannonball, Sunspot, Karma, Moonstar, and Wolfsbane (plus Douglock)  for a weekend at the mansion, where they find themselves battling Mikhail Rasputin and their time-travelling past selves. This series was published around the time that "Operation: Zero Tolerance" was wrapping up, and that's where it's been placed  between X-Men #71-72, and between X-Force #70-71. 

The trouble with this placement is, at that time (from X-Men #70-81), the X-Mansion had been stripped. Of everything. Shi'Ar technology, personal effects, furniture  all gone. The mansion was reduced to bare wood walls and floors, thanks to Bastion, who gained control of the mansion in Cable v2 #47. By the time of X #73, the X-Men have replaced some of the effects (kitchen table, TV, couch, wallpaper), but the Shi'Ar medical technology and Danger Room are still missing even as of X #81. 

In the NM:TOD series, though, the mansion is depicted as perfectly normal  several characters' rooms are shown fully furnished, team photographs hang everywhere, genetic identity scanners and holding cells complete with energy barriers are used, and the Shi'Ar medlab is given heavy use. We also see the Danger Room. There's no way that the TOD series could occur where it is currently placed. 

Could the series, then, occur after X #81, where the X-Men are shown starting to rebuild the Danger Room? No  the events of TOD are referenced in X-Force #75, which takes place between X #73-74. Meaning, the TOD series must also take place prior to X #74. And therefore, prior to X #70, since the mansion is unuseable between X #70-74. 

Now, from X #62-70, Cannonball is either out of the country or a prisoner of O:ZT. There are no opportunities for him to appear in the TOD series during X #62-70, and by X #70, the mansion has been stripped. Therefore, the TOD series must occur before X #62. 

How does this work out for the other characters? Well, we only have a solid departure point from two of them  Wolfsbane and Douglock. In Excalibur #113, Rahne departs for the reunion, and Moira warns her to lay low, citing the fuss O:ZT is currently kicking up in the USA. (More evidence that the series can't take place where it's currently located, as O:ZT was shut down in X #69.) In Excalibur #114, Douglock decides to join her, and jumps ship for the airport, hoping to catch Rahne's flight. (Which he does, as we see in TOD #1.) 

Now, at the very end of EXCAL #114, Moira MacTaggert receives an urgent e-mail from SHIELD, who then show up to pick up Shadowcat in "Kitty Pryde: Agent of SHIELD" #1. In KP:AOS #1, when SHIELD arrives, Wolfsbane and Douglock are back on the island  meaning, there must be a gap somewhere long enough to accommodate a weekend in the States. It seems unlikely that SHIELD would notify Moira several days before they were due to arrive  especially given the nature of their emergency, and the fact that everyone else on the island seemed surprised at their arrival  so the gap must be in EXCAL #114 itself. I have found a likely one between pp.13-14. Kitty is down in the tunnels below Muir searching for Lockheed during the entire issue, but it's very easily assumed that she made more than one trip to search for him  he'd been missing for weeks at that point anyway. Other than Kitty in the tunnels, the gap between pp.13-14 could easily span any length of time. 

So: Wolfsbane and Douglock appear between pp.13-14 of EXCAL #114, where there exists a gap of  according to the TOD series  at least 2-3 days. What about everyone else? 

Karma is not a problem  she was last seen in the Beast limited series, which occurs between UX #340-341  and UX #341, featuring Cannonball, occurs before he travels to Hong Kong in X #62. Therefore, we've actually narrowed the gap down  the TOD series has to occur AFTER the Beast series, meaning in-between UX #340 and X #62. 

(Narrowing further  UX #340 occurs before Graydon Creed's death in X-Factor #130. At that time, Cannonball is undercover in Creed's campaign. He remains undercover during X #60-61, which take place shortly AFTER Creed's death. And in X #62 he leaves for Hong Kong. Therefore, the TOD series has to occur between X #61-62.) 

Sunspot is not a problem either  he's a regularly featured character in X-Force, and plenty of opportunities can be found for him to slip away. 

Moonstar  ahh, Moonstar is a problem. At that time, she is an undercover member of the MLF  she has been since X-Force #28 or so -- and she doesn't break cover and rejoin the team until X-Force #67-70, a story arc that ends with them meeting Cable, who tells them the mansion has been compromised  therefore, too late for the TOD series to take place. There are no gaps in that storyline  but is there an earlier point at which Dani could have snuck away from the MLF and enjoyed a weekend with her old teammates? 

Yes  yes there is. In the "X-Force and Cable" 1997 Annual, Dani is alerted to a threat to the Asgardian Valkyrior, and calls in X-Force to help her out. She tells Forearm of the MLF that she's going away for personal business. This is an IDEAL time for her to take a weekend detour to the X-Mansion. At the end of the annual, as X-Force stands on a windswept Asgardian plain, Dani says that she won't be returning home with them; that Brunnhilda will take her back to the MLF. However, we never see her actually LEAVE, we never see her separate from her former teammates and start to walk away. It's entirely possible that, seconds after the issue ends, Sunspot gets her to change her mind, and at least attend the reunion. (More to the point, we HAVE to assume he convinces her, because there's no other way for Dani to be available for the TOD series.) 

Now, this is a fairly spotty period for the MCP  it's in the middle of the second gap. So far I've been able to deduce that XFO@'97 is currently placed between XFO #62 and #69, but no more. I'll try to narrow it down further  and see if it can be placed in a proper spot to allow it to be a day or two before the TOD series. 

Now, X-Force #62 occurs before the Beast limited series  Karma's siblings being kidnapped by Spiral in this issue is the set-up for that series. Since the Beast series takes place before the TOD series, the X-Force Annual should take place after XFO #62. In X-Force #65, Caliban begins to suffer seizures  and he is healthy in the X-Force annual. Therefore, the annual takes place between XFO #62-65  and #63-64 are a two-part story in Latveria. At the very end of that story, X-Force says that they've contacted "the X-Men at the mansion". Now, in UX #341, half of the X-Men are whisked away to Shi'Ar space, and in X #62, the other half go to Hong Kong. Neither group returns to the mansion until X #70, and in-between the only X-Men at the mansion are Archangel and Psylocke. 

Therefore, it's likely that XFO #63-64 take place at LEAST before X #62. However, there's no way to place it any more accurately  and the TOD series (and therefore the X-Force annual) takes place before X #62 as well. So I'll just shrug, go with the relative publication order of the two, and say that the annual takes place just after XFO #64. 

Therefore, for Sunspot and Moonstar, the NM:TOD series can take place between XFO@'97 and XFO #65. 

Now, for Wolfsbane and Douglock, whose appearances are tied into Excalibur continuity at a definite point  can we shift EXCAL #114 backwards, claiming it takes place between X #61-62 and XFO #64-65? Can we say that EXCAL #114 takes place before the entire Operation: Zero Tolerence crossover? 

Excalibur #115 takes place just after Gen-X #33; Banshee is on Muir Island for both issues. Gen-X #32-33 take place AFTER their portion of the O:ZT crossover  therefore Excalibur #115 takes place after O:ZT as well. However, the gap I created in Excalibur #114 pp.13-14 is of sufficient vagueness that it probably CAN be widened to hold all of X #62-69. Those issues probably take a week at most, and there's no fast-paced stories going on at the time in Excalibur  it's workable. 

Now, Rory Campbell appears in X #63, where it is revealed to the readers that he's been working for Sebastian Shaw. He appears again in EXCAL #111, where it's clear that Moira knows that he's working for Shaw. However, in X #63, none of the X-MEN learn that Rory is working for Shaw  only the reader learns this. Therefore, Moira must have learned of Rory's allegiances through a different method, and this is NOT proof that EXCAL #111 has to come after X #63. 

Excalibur #107-110, based on Spiral's appearances, take place after the Beast miniseries  and in #110, Moira receives an e-mail from Alistauire Stuart, saying that he was taking Rory to Japan to be fitted for a prosthetic leg (placing EXCAL #110 before X #63  and perhaps THIS is how Moira learned of his allegiances?)  so already, EXCAL #107-110 are placed between BEAST #1-3 and X #62-64. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch at all to go ahead and place EXCAL #111-114 p.13 into the same gap (along with the Colossus one-shot, which takes place between EXCAL #112-113). The only major change would be the flipping of X #62 and EXCAL #111 in Rory Campbell's chronology. 

One other plot point  Dani Moonstar doesn't tell X-Force that she's UNDERCOVER until XFO #67  until then, they all believe she's really joined the MLF. Sunspot in particular is very mad at her for withholding this information. However, in the TOD series, Cannonball knows that she's undercover, and she freely tells her past self this information. Although the TOD series was clearly WRITTEN to take place after Dani rejoined X-Force, it can be made to work where I've placed it with the following rationale: Dani confided in Cannonball, and ONLY in him, because he told her about HIS recent undercover stint in Graydon Creed's campaign (which ended only recently, in X #61). However, even though they shared a common espionage experience, she made him promise not to tell anyone else. (And telling her past self isn't really a problem either, as long as she made her promise not to blab it around too.) 

So: to sum up  the "New Mutants: Truth or Death" series can and would work MUCH better placed between X #61-62, UX #340-341, XFO@'97-XFO #65, and EXCAL #114 pp.13-14, than its current MCP placement. 

Can anyone see any holes in this suggestion? Any logic traps or irreconcilable character appearances I missed? Any input on this  even confirmation  would be very welcome. 


Revised placement: 
 
UX #340 
XF #130 
XFO #62 
X #60-61 
BEAST #1-3 
EXCAL #107-110 
XFO #63-64 
X@'97 
EXCAL #111-112 
COLOSSUS 
XFO@'97 
EXCAL #113 
EXCAL #114 pp.1-13 
NM:TOD #1-3 
UX #341 
X #62-65 
C2 #47 
XFO #67-70 
X #66-70 


			*	*	*

Thread 5

Posted: 06 Jan 2007 06:38 pm    Post subject: CA 160-162
By Dhall

SOLARR/SILAS KING 
*CA 160-FB 
AF SPECIAL 
{CA 160} 
A 126 
DEF 42 

**Wolfgang, Johann Doctor 
CA 161 
CA 162 

REDWING 
CA 159 
CA 160 
CA 161 
CA 162 <-Delete, Redwing does not appear in this issue. 
CA 163

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Posted: 06 Jan 2007 06:40 pm    Post subject: Thor 210-228
By Dhall

Thor 210 
Balder 
Karnilla 
Hildegard 
Sif 

These four do not appear in this issue, and it should be removed from their MCP listings. 

**GIERRODUR 
T 210 
T 211 

**ULLA 
T 210 
T 211 

**SSSTHGAR 
T 212 
T 213 

ODIN 
 
T 208 
*T 212-FB 
T 212 
T 213 

HEIMDALL 
T 204 
T 212 <-S/B T 212-BTS 
*T 213-BTS (BTS because he shows up at beginning of next issue, with the rest of the gods.) 
T 214 
T 215 
T 216 
T 217 
*T 218 
*T 223 
T 227 
T 240 

4-D MAN/MERCURIO 
T 208 
*T 214-FB 
T 214 
T 215 
T 216 
*T 216-FB 
*T 216 
T 440 
CM 51 

**XORR 
T 214 
T 215 
T 216 

GRAND COMMISSIONER [RIGELLIAN] 
T 132 
T 133-BTS 
T 134-BTS 
*T 216 
*T 217 
*T 218 
*T 219 
*T 221-FB 

BALDER 
T 210 
T 212 
T 216 
*T 217-FB 
T 217 
T 218 
T 219 
T 220 
T 221 <- S/B T 221-FB 
T 244 

VOLSTAGG 
T 211 
T 212 
T 216 
*T 217-FB-BTS 
T 217 
T 218 
T 240 

**IGRON 
T 179 
T 217-FB 
T 217 


**AVALON 
T 219 
T 220 

**KRAGONN 
T 219 
T 220 

**DRACUS 
T 220 

TANA NILE 
T 218 
T 219 
T 220 
T 221 <- S/B T 221-FB 
CPU 4 
CPU 5 

GRANT, SILAS 
T 218 
T 219 
T 220 
T 221 <S/B T 221-FB 

SIF 
T 219 
T 220 
T 221 <- S/B T 221-FB 
T 222 
T 223 

ODIN 
T 218 
T 220 
T 221 <- S/B T 221-FB 
T 222 
T 223 

THOR 
T 219 
T 220 
*T 221-FB 
T 221 
T 222 

HILDEGARD 
T 219 
T 220 
T 221 <-S/B T 221-FB 
T 222 

VIZIER 
T 209 
T 218 
T 220 
T 221 <-S/B T 221-FB 
T 222 
T 230 

KRISTA 
T 217 
T 218 
T 219 
T 221 <-S/B T 221-FB 
T 222 
T 223 

PLUTO 
T 199 
T 200 
T 201 
T 221 <-S/B T 221-FB 
T 222 <- S/B T 222-BTS 
T 223 

ARES 
A 100 
SUB-M 57 
*T 221-FB (posing as Hercules to deceive Thor) 
T 221 
T 222 

GALACTUS 
FF 121 
FF 122 
FF 123 
*T 226-FB 
T 225 
T 226 
T 227 
T 228 


EGO/EGROS <Real (former)Name EGROS 
*T 228-FB 
T 132 
T 133 
T 155 
T 160 
T 161 
T 199 
T 201 
T 226-FB 
*T 226 
T 227 
T 228

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jan 2007 11:54 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

We have him listed as GEIRRODUR. Is that a mistake on our part? 


watching: harry potter

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jan 2007 08:52 am    
By Dhall

It appears that Marvel has erred. In JIM 101/2 & T 137 it's spelled GEIRRODUR, in T 210 & T 211, GIERRODUR. 


GEIRRODUR 
T@ 14/4 
{JIM 101/2} 
T:G 2 
T 137 
T 138 
T 139 
*T 210 
*T 211 
JIM 504 
JIM 505 
JIM 512 
T2 14-FB 
T2 42

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Posted: 08 Jan 2007 02:14 am    Post subject: Generation X holiday special
By Shadowdragon

I can't seem to find the 1998 Generation X holiday special listed in the chronology anywhere. Does anyone happen to know where this special fits into the Generation X series?

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Posted: 08 Jan 2007 07:02 pm    
By Dhall

This issue needs an analysis done. In my list I have it between Gen X 48 and 49, though I'm sure others have it elsewhere. 

Dave H

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Thread 8

Posted: 08 Jan 2007 09:52 pm    Post subject: ReLoad chronology
By Somebody

I was looking for the big thread with all the ReLoad notes there for something, and it's not coming up on the search function. Anyone got a link to it?

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Posted: 08 Jan 2007 10:43 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Primarily June and July, 2005, although it's mentioned for many months prior to that. 


watching: florida vs ohio state

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Thread 9

Posted: 08 Jan 2007 04:29 pm    Post subject: Heroes Reborn Chronology
By republican22203

Hey first post here! Ive been trying to find a single chronology list of Heroes Reborn issues (cap, iron, FF, avengers), if its not a problem does anyone know the chronology?

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Posted: 08 Jan 2007 05:02 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I moved this to the "Marvel Universe" forum, which is the correct place for your question. I don't know about a single chronology list, but each of the characters who were a part of the Heroes Reborn issues already have those issues listed in their individual chronologies.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 08 Jan 2007 06:49 pm    
By RLG

I came up with exactly the thing you are asking for way back in late `04. I currently don't have the ability to unlock the MCP archives, but am pretty certain it would be in the DEC 2004 stuff. 

If you cannot find it, let me know and I'll see what I can do. 

RLG

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Posted: 08 Jan 2007 07:07 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

RLG wrote: 
>>>
pretty certain it would be in the DEC 2004 stuff. 
<<<

Correct. Thread #1 in the December 2004 archive. The link is at the bottom of the page. 


watching: florida vs ohio state

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Posted: 08 Jan 2007 09:21 pm    
By republican22203

Hey! Sorry about the wrong location! But sooo much thanks to that! I really appreciate it greatly!!!!! Thanks so much!

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Posted: 09 Jan 2007 11:14 pm    
By republican22203

LoL i had one last question. Sorry lol dont want to sound like a bother but i was just curious if anywhere in the archives theres the Heroes Return Chronology? ive been trying to gather reading orders for Onslaught, Heroes Reborn, and Heroes Return. and just got the Return left just curious if anywhere in archives its there but if not its totally cool!

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Thread 10

Posted: 11 Jan 2007 08:53 pm    Post subject: Exiles Annual -- where does it fit in the Exiles chronology?
By jimmyflowers

In between any particular issues? I'm finally catching up on my Exiles reading and I don't want to mess up the order. : ) 

Thanks! 
Jimmy

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Posted: 12 Jan 2007 06:55 am    
By lkseitz

Sometime after the World Tour arc, but nothing specific beyond that that I noticed. I'd probably place it before any of the Claremont issues once those start.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Posted: 12 Jan 2007 09:17 am    
By Somebody

Probably just "between whatever two issues it came out between" then, huh?

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Posted: 12 Jan 2007 01:17 pm    
By JD

That would then be between #88 and #89, which is perfectly appropriate : #89 is a one-issue story which serves as an epilogue for the whole Bedard run (44 issues, which is more than average these days).

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Thread 11

Posted: 12 Jan 2007 11:19 pm    Post subject: Spider-man M/TU 79,82-85 placement
By cweed4

Currently listed as: 
ASM 206 
M/TU 79 
DD 160 
M/TU 82 
M/TU 83 
M/TU 84 
M/TU 85 
S-W 26 
PPTSS 44 
PPTSS 45 
M/TE 25 
ASM 207 
PPTSS 46 
S-W 28 

First, the DD 160 appearance comes after S-W 26 according to the OMI to M/TU and the corresponding chronology of Black Widow here. 

The bigger shift that I would suggest involves the return of jolly JJJ to the Daily Bugle. He is not running the paper thru ASM 206, but is in charge during M/TU 79. This return is seen in ASM 207 which would place it between those 2 issues. For JJJ's (& Joe Robertson's) MCP listing those panels are designated as flashbacks. Page 14 of ASM 207 begins with Spidey swinging off to the Brooklyn bridge before leading into the event in question. The caption to start that scene states "AT THAT MOMENT". Since that would eliminate the possible flashback designation of those specific panels the entire issue would need to be relisted. 

That move then requires PPTSS 46 to change as well since it specifically references Pete's missed date with Deb Whitman having taken place "last night in ASM 207". I would think PPTSS 44+45 would also move to maintain sequential order. However, there doesn't seem to be anything in those 2 issues that demands a move. Plus it would contradict the OMI to M/TU which puts M/TU 85 before PPTSS 44. 

I am leaving M/TE 25 alone since I don't have that comic. 

ASM 206 
ASM 207 
PPTSS 46 
M/TU 79 
M/TU 82 
M/TU 83 
M/TU 84 
M/TU 85 
S-W 26 
DD 160 
PPTSS 44 
PPTSS 45 
M/TE 25 
S-W 28 

These changes don't appear to effect the listings for Black Widow, Mary-Jane, Daredevil, JJJ or Joe Roberston except for removing the FB designation on ASM 207 for the last two.

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Thread 12

Posted: 08 Jan 2007 07:50 pm    Post subject: M
By Dhall

M 
Caution: See also Claudette St. Croix and Nicole St. Croix 
UX 316 
X 36 

Real Name: Monet Yvette Clarisse Maria Therese St. Croix

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Posted: 08 Jan 2007 07:53 pm    
By Somebody

Wrong M - that M's the twins. Monet-proper's listed under "M II".

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Posted: 08 Jan 2007 08:08 pm    
By Dhall

Which is what I get for browsing the listings too quickly...you are quite correct.

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Posted: 13 Jan 2007 03:34 pm    
By Somebody

One thing looking at that listing again though - there should be a "See Penance II" link at the end of the M (twins) listing, same as the Penance (Monet) listing ends with "See M II", and a corresponding "From M" listing on Penance (twins)

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Thread 13

Posted: 14 Jan 2007 01:25 am    Post subject: ASM 537-FB
By Col_Fury

Amazing Spider-Man 537 pg12pn2-pg12pn3 has a FlashBack to Steve Rogers in school reading Mark Twain. He mentions that he was 'maybe twelve.' So that's maybe 1929... 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
M/HOL 1994/2-FB (~6 YRS OLD) 
M/SH3 3-FB pg3 (~8 YRS OLD) 
CA 255-FB pg2pn5-pg3pn1 
CA 270-FB pg4pn5-pg5pn2 
*ASM 537-FB (~12 YRS OLD) 
CA 250-FB 
CA: SL2 7/2-FB pg2-pg3 (33-34) 

There's also a generic/remembrance one-panel WWII FlashBack to Cap & Bucky fighting Nazis while Steve quotes Mark Twain. It's nothing new, really. Just a 'remember when Cap fought in WWII?' type FlashBack.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Thread 14

Posted: 14 Jan 2007 01:32 pm    Post subject: Doctor Strange question
By Enda80

Quick question-has it been established that it was not in fact Doctor Strange in the issue where the Scarlet Witch gives birth to Thomas and William (or seemed to.......) but just an illusion? 

Has Doctor Strange ever recalled or referred to his having been there for their birth?

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Thread 15

Posted: 15 Jan 2007 12:25 am    Post subject: Change for Ahura and Pope: they are the same person
By blue

I just noticed that there is a separate listing for Ahura and Pope. However, the Daredevil arc listed for Pope (DD 280-283) actually covers the period when Ahura (Black Bolt's son) was sent to earth by the Genetic council, but his spaceship crashed. He was found by a couple and was called "Pope". After he is found by Gorgon and Karnak, he is next seen in Fantastic Four Unlimited 2 where he is called Ahura again (however, the recap on pp 8-12 clearly explains that they are one and the same). 

I would thus suggest revising Ahura's listing as follows: 

INHUMANS GRAPHIC NOVEL 
DD 279 
DD 280 
DD 281 
DD282 
DD 283 
FFU 2-FB 
FFU 2 
I:GR 
FF 402 
AR 2 
FFU 11 
FF 411 
FF 413 

I would also suggest deleting the Pope entry, or linking it back to the Ahura entry. 

(I added in the DD 279 issue because he is first seen there) 

Does this sound right to you? 

Edwin Tam

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Posted: 16 Jan 2007 11:16 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

I agree with you, blue. I'd never looked at either Ahura's or Pope's entries that closely to see the discrepency, but you're absolutely right.

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Thread 16

Posted: 15 Jan 2007 09:58 pm    Post subject: Info needed, quick, on "Hulk: Nightmerica"
By jephyork
Director

I'm not looking for a full write-up, but can someone tell me quickly if "Hulk: Nightmerica" is a modern-day canon story, a set-in-the-past canon story, or a non-canon story? 

(And also WHY?) 

Thanks ... it's for a seeecret project I'm working on.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Jan 2007 11:19 pm    
By JLH

Hulk is "Hulk Smash!", green and stupid, while Banner is your typical on the run version who turns when he gets mad. It appears to be in 'modern' times, concerning the vehicles and technology and crap (not a pure indicator, but I figured I'd mention), no continuity notes involved. Editor is Ralph Macchio, who at least seems to give a damn about doing canon tales more than Axel "Editing Is More Than Rubberstamping Approvals?!" Alonzo.

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Posted: 16 Jan 2007 12:41 am    
By Frederic Krier

I found an interview with the writer, Robin Laws: 
http://www.comicboards.com/interviews/laws.html 

This part would indicate that the series is indeed meant to be in continuity: 
"When Nightmerica was a novel, I had a freer hand to ignore continuity, presenting Banner as younger and more Eric Bana-like. When it became a comic, it was more about conforming to the mainline Marvel universe version of the character than about making it match the movie." 
and according to this it's supposedly taking place during the Bruce Jones run: 
http://forum.newsarama.com/archive/index.php/t-1493.html 

Maybe the best place to put it would be between the Jenkins and Jones run, actually.

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Posted: 17 Jan 2007 10:36 am    
By jephyork
Director

Thanks, guys! 

-Jeph!

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Thread 17

Posted: 27 Jan 2006 02:19 pm    Post subject: Education of Professor Xavier
By wolframbane

I have been working out some of the educational background of Charles Xavier from different sources, trying to compile an order of events. Things seem to have flowed relatively orderly until the recent Excalibur v3 #14. This is how I have ordered events up until the release of XCAL3 14. 

High school: graduated at age 16 due to genius (OHOTMU:X-MEN '04), excels academically and at football and track (UX 12) and basketball (UX 180), telepathy fully develops and looses hair (UX 12) 

Bard College in New York: attended from age 16-18 due to genius (OHOTMU:X-MEN '04), recieved bachelor's degree in biology (OHOTMU:X-MEN '04), befriends John Grey (OHOTMU:X-MEN '04) 

Oxford University in England: Earns scholarship (UX 389), meets Moira (UX 389), Mr. Sinister secretly one of his instructers (XCAL3 14), recieves PhDs in biophysics, genetics and psychology (OHOTMU:X-MEN '04), note that according to the Oxford website recieving PhDs would normally take 6-9 years 

There is an interim during which Xavier joins does a stint with the US Army in Asia for 3 years (UX 117), wanders through Europe and Asia, gets injured battling Lucifer, and returns home with Amelia Voght, then he continues his education: 

Columbia University in New York: Recieves PhD in anthropology while living with Amelia (UX 309, OHOTMU:X-MEN '04) 

University in London, England: Recieves PhD in psychiatry (OHOTMU:X-MEN '04), renews contact w/ Moira about starting school (OHOTMU:X-MEN '04), after getting PhD he awakens the comatose Jean Grey (BIZADV 27/1) 

My analysis of XCAL3 14 adds some contradicting information. During a conversation between Xavier and Dr. Strange, Strange mentioned that Xavier graduated college with honors at 16, spent 2 years at Oxford where he fell in love with Moira, and enlisted in the US Army at 19. Still later there is mention that Xavier is at Harvard at age 15, which contradicts that earlier statement of him graduating college at 16. 

Any comments on this? 

Additionally, are there any references to what 'university in London' that Xavier recieved his PhD in psychiatry? Are there any other references of him attending Harvard? Any indication of him having other degrees?

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Posted: 01 Feb 2006 02:57 pm    
By wolframbane

Well, it took a bit of creative thinking, but I think I managed to accomodate the conflicting accounts of Xavier's early education as given in XCAL3 14. 

He graduated high school at age 16. XCAL3 14 states he graduated college with honors at 16, and was at Harvard at age 15. I believe he did graduate high school at 16 (due to his genius), while taking college-level correspondence courses through Harvard Extension School from age 15-16. This accomodates the 'Harvard at 15' and 'graduated college at 16' problems. 

He attended Bard College from ages 16-18. No problem there. 

He attended Oxford University in England. XCAL3 14 has him spend 2 years there, meaning he would graduate at 20. However, XCAL3 14 also states that 'at 19, you enlisted, OCS (Officer Candidate School), commission, off to war'. How could he enlist in OCS for officer training (traditionally done at Fort Benning in the US) at 19, while attending Oxford between ages 18 to 20 in England. To accomodate this, I believe he did enlist at 19, but in the reserve services, where he could pursue OCS training one weekend a month, at a nearby base. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Officer_Candidate_School_(U.S._Army) ). The United States Army does have numerous bases in Europe, where he could have recieved his OCS training in the reserves. When he graduated Oxford at 20, he briefly reurned with Moira to New York, and the fully enlisted to fight in Asia.

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Posted: 01 Feb 2006 06:32 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
He graduated high school at age 16. XCAL3 14 states he graduated college with honors at 16, and was at Harvard at age 15. I believe he did graduate high school at 16 (due to his genius), while taking college-level correspondence courses through Harvard Extension School from age 15-16. This accomodates the 'Harvard at 15' and 'graduated college at 16' problems. 
<<<

Would he have bothered graduating from high school at 16, if he was taking Harvard courses at 15? More likely, Dr. Strange is simply mistaken. 


watching: situation room

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Posted: 10 Feb 2006 12:15 pm    
By trey

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
IUniversity in London, England: Recieves PhD in psychiatry (OHOTMU:X-MEN '04s 
<<<

As you and I discussed off-list before this has to be incorrect because there is no such thing as a PhD in psychiatry. 

This was a error in the OHOTHMU. There are no stories which say Prof. X is a physician so he could not be a psychiatrist anyway. 

I brought this up to Jeff Christiansen over on the Masters of the Obscure message boards. He agreed it was a mistake, and said they would add it to the "mistakes we made" part of the OHOTMU FAQ at some point.

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Posted: 10 Feb 2006 01:40 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I take your first point. As to your second point, we don't use lack of evidence as evidence. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 10 Feb 2006 03:33 pm    
By trey

I'm not sure what that means in this context. Surely the "default position" is that someone isn't a physician/psychiatrist and the burden of proof would be upon establishing that he or she was. 

But really, Professor X being a physician is not particularly an issue--my only quibble would be that if he were it was made up wholly in the OHOTMU (newest edition), but then so are a lot of other things. My only real concern was with the confusion of psychiatry (MD subspecialty) and psychology (PhD science).

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Posted: 10 Feb 2006 06:25 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Surely it's not. The "default position" is that we don't know whether he's a physician or not. To say that he can't be a psychiatrist because no story has shown that he's a physician is faulty logic. 


Quote: 
>>>
But really, Professor X being a physician is not particularly an issue--my only quibble would be that if he were it was made up wholly in the OHOTMU (newest edition), but then so are a lot of other things. My only real concern was with the confusion of psychiatry (MD subspecialty) and psychology (PhD science). 
<<<

Agreed. But, then again, I've already said that. 


watching: situation room

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Posted: 10 Feb 2006 08:29 pm    
By trey

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Surely it's not. The "default position" is that we don't know whether he's a physician or not. To say that he can't be a psychiatrist because no story has shown that he's a physician is faulty logic. 
<<<

My point was he can't be a psychiatrist unless he is a physician. I apologize for stating it unclearly. 

As to him being a physician, yes, we have no evidence to support the theory that he is--and only circumstantial evidence (i.e. we'vew been told a lot about his schooling and this is never mentioned, nor has any residency training, etc.) against it. But yes, it is an open question, as much as it is about anyone else in the Marvel Universe (or I suppose anyone in the real world) who hasn't been explicitly established as a physician.

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Posted: 11 Feb 2006 03:12 am    
By jephyork
Director

I'm unclear as to what any of this has to do with his chronology. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 Feb 2006 11:10 am    
By Ocean Doot

As long as people are chattin' on the subject of Prof. X's backstory, I got a question. 

In the original X-Men series, in issue 60 or 61 (the Sauron two-parter), it's stated that Charles Xavier and Karl Lykos worked together for a while. They did some studies on mutation, etc. The X-Men actually read a bunch of Xavier's and Lykos' notes in these issues. There are no actual flashbacks of this time however, so ... to my knowledge ... this has never been placed in the MCP. 

It's also pretty much *never* mentioned anymore. Lykos' position as a cohort of Xavier's in genetic research in the pre-X-Men days has kinda been usurped by Moira MacTaggert. I saw a thing on John Byrne's forum once where he suggested that the Moira MacTaggert retcon means that the *three* of them, Xavier, MacTaggert and Lykos, must have all shared a lab at one point. I don't know that I buy that. 

Anyway, I just wondered if any of the chronology-minded folks on this forum had any thoughts about this. At what point in Xavier's rather eventful pre-X-Men life did he work with Karl Lykos? 

-- Jason

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Posted: 20 Feb 2006 02:06 am    
By wolframbane

I have done some extensive research into placement of events for the backstory of Professor Xavier. Consult my X-Men timeline for most of the events in his early life. 
http://geocities.com/johnston_portfolio/xmentimeline.html 

Charles worked with Lykos studying mutation, so it was prbably after Xavier returned from recieving his final PhD oversees and began studying and educating mutants, which I place during Yr -1. It was likely before Xavier recruited the first X-Men (Yr 2), as none of the X-Men were familiar with Dr. Lykos in UX 59. For my timeline, I placed Xavier and Lykos in Yr 1 (sometime between Yr -1 and Yr 2). 

Xavier also worked with Bruce Banner prior to his becoming the Hulk, working on a develop a device to treat mental exhaustion utilizing gamma radiation. This would occur at least sometime prior to the Hulk's first appearance in Hulk #1.

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Posted: 18 Jan 2007 12:35 am    
By wolframbane

This is kinda interesting, because this is exatly what has since happened. Charles, Moira and Lykos were all revealed to have worked together on Project Mutant together in X-Men: Deadly Genesis!!

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Thread 18

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:56 pm    Post subject: Ages of Marvel Characters
By wolframbane

An asset to developing chronologies is determining the approximate ages of certain characters. While this is a wild card game at best, given the often erratic methods in which time flows within comics, but it still can be a useful tool, especially when determining when certain events occurred during their younger years (ie Professor X, witnessed Kurt beatin his mother at age 10, graduated high school at age 16, graduated Bard College at age 18). 

The purpose of this forum is to not necessarily determine the exact 'current' age of a character, or to determine their dates of birth. It is rather intended to compile a list of ages that characters were at certain periods within their lives. Given the fluidity at which time flows in the MU, I will not necessarily determine how old characters are 'now'. The same applies for the ever growing lapse of time between the Golden and Silver Ages. 

Some ages have been explicitly given in stories. Others may require extrapolation or deduction, such as approximate ages if the character is in school or has a specific occupation that requires a specific age minimum. If there is a min/max age a character may be, I will use a < or > symbol to indicate that he is no younger/older than a given age. The assumption that high school graduates are >18, college graduates are >22, and certain careers involves age minimums such as lawyers age >26, medical doctors age >28. 

Any additions to this list are welcome, as are any comments on existing 
Finally a special thanks to Kelson Vibber for his inspiration and guidelines to create this concept at: 
http://dcu.smartmemes.com/DCTL_7_intro.html 

Spiderman: 2nd term high school sophomore (age 16) in Amazing Fantasy 15 (according to Spider-Man Index 1). Flash Thompson, Gwen Stacy, Harry Osborne, Mary Jane Watson and Liz Allen were his peers in Midtown High and ESU. Jessica Jones (Alias) also attended Midtown w/ Peter. 

Ben and May Parker were engaged (age >18) during the Great Depression (<1941), giving a birthdate of >1923. 

Arana was age 15 at her debut in Amazing Fantasy v2 #1. 

Johnny Storm: 2nd term high school sophomore (age 16) in Fantastic Four 1. Susan Storm is his older sister age (>17). Reed Richards is eight years older than sue (age >25). Ben Grimm is a former air force test pilot (age >29). Franklin Richards is born in FF Annual #6. 

Captain America (Steve Rogers): Born July 9, 1917 in Captain America: The Great Gold Steal. This is a 1968 prose novel and therefore may be considered non-canon. 

She-Hulk is a lawyer (age >26) at her debut in Savage She-Hulk 1. Hulk is her older cousin. 

Magneto was born Erik Magnus Lensherr in 1928 in X-Men Unlimited 2. However it was later revealed that this identity was a fabrication, but his established childhood in Auschitz concentraion camp would tend to concur a biirthdate of the late 1920s. 

Professor X (and by proxy his twin Cassandra Nova) fought in the Korean War (1950-1953) for 3 years in UXM 117. He was an Oxford graduate (age 22) when he enlisted. This would give a borthdate of approx 1928, although later retcons may have since placed his miliary activity later, thus giving him a later birthdate. As an alternative date, he was an oxford graduate (age 22), then fought in an Asian war for 3 years, sometime after that he arrived in Israel in UXM 161 (flashback 20 years ago), so by UXM 161 he was age >45. 

Juggernaut also fought in the Korean War (or an Asian conflict if retconned), he was slightly older than Prof X, and was age 16 when possessed by his future self in X-Men Forever. During this time he also encountered an infant Toad (age 0). 

Moira MacTaggart attended Oxford with Xavier. Carter Rhyking (Hazard) was a childhood friend of Xavier. 

Gabrielle Haller (age 10) arrived at the Dachau concetration camp (which closed in 1945) in UXM 161, therefore she was born <1935. Her longevity remains unexplained, but it could have something to do with the treatment that placed her into a coma by Strucker. A possible (but unsubstantiated) alternative to her longevity may be exposure to the Ressurection Stone which appeared briiefly in Dachau in 1945 in Avengers 209. 

Thomas Halloway (Angel) was born in the late 1970s according to Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Golden Age Marvel 2004.  

Sir Denis Nayland Smith was 28 when he first encountered Fu Manchu in 1911 in Master of Kung Fu 19 (born 1883). 

Wolverine was born sometime after 1885, when his older bother John Howlett Jr was born. 

Walter Charles born to Agamemnon in 1944 per Incredible Hulk #407. 

Jessica Drew (Spider-Woman) was born in 1928 and recieved uranium poisoning in 1931. 

Johann Schmidt (Red Skull) was born in 1899, according to Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Golden Age Marvel 2004. 

Baron Zemo born in 1900, per OHMUGA. 

Mark Anthony Todd (Blazing Skull) was born in 1910, according to Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Golden Age Marvel 2004. 

Nick Fury was born in the late 1910s. according to Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Marvel Knights 2005. 

Robert William Paine (Black Fox) was born in 1920, accoridng to Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Golden Age Marvel 2004. 

Red Raven was age 20 in 1940, giving a borthdate of 1920, in Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Golden Age Marvel 2004. 

Bucky was 'almost 21' when he died in 1945, giving a birthdate of 1925. 

3-D Man was a test pilot (age >29) in 1958, giving a birthdate of <1929. 

Grand Director/Captain America IV was born in 1929, according to OHMUGA.  

Viper II was born in the late 1920s, according to Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Wolverine 2004. 

Dr. Strange was born in 1930, according to Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Marvel Knights 2005. 

Robert Grayson (Marvel Boy) was born in 1934, per OHMUGA. 

Blade was born over seven decades ago, per OHMUMK. 

Jack Monroe (Nomad) was born 1941, per OHMUGA. 

John Jameson was a test pilot (age >29) in Amazing Spider-Man 1. J Jonah Jameson was his father, therefore he is >18 years older (assuming age >18 for fatherhood). 

Wilson Grant Fisk (Kingpin) was 15 when he became a crimelord, married vanessa 10 years after that, and first faced Spider-Man 20 years after that. Vanessa was 15 when she married Kingpin. Richard was born one year after they were married. 

Frank Castle (Punisher) served in the Vietnam War (1968-1975) for five years, and had to be minimum age to enlist in US Army (18), so a borthdate of <1950. 

Forge, Lionel Jefferies, Madison Jefferies, Abraham Kieros (War) and Water Wizard (Peter Van Zante) fought in the Vietnam War (ended 1975). Assuming minmum age <18 to enlist, birthdates of <1957. 

Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch were born in 1958, per Whizzer lisitng in OHMUGA. 

Norman Osborne (Green Goblin), assuming age >18 when became father of Harry, who is same age as Peter Parker. 

Curt Connors (Lizard) was a medical doctor (age >28) when he first appeared in Amazing Spider-Man 6. 

Daredevil and Foggy nelson were lawyers (age >26) when they first appeared. Elektra attende university with them. 

Achilles is born in 1909, per Incredible Hulk 387 and 409. 

Storm was age 6 when her parents were killed, in a flashback 20 years before in UXM 102. 

Cable was born in UXM 200. 

Eugene Judd (Puck) is born in 1914 per Alpha Flight 32. 

Beast was a college freshman (age 18) when he joined the X-Men. Dark Beast is born at the same time, but is 20 years older physically because he travelled back in time in X-Men Omega. Beast mntined he was soon to turn 30 in X-Men v2 #20. 

Rick Jones was a teenage (age <17) in Incredible Hulk 1. 

Dr. Cecilia Reyes was a medical doctor (age >28) at her debut. 

Iceman was 16 in UXM 1, and had his 18th birthday in UXM 32. 

Cyclops, Angel and Jean Grey are first term high school seniors (age 17) in UXM 1, according to the X-Men Index 1. Havok is 4 years younger than Cyclops. In X-Men v2 #51, Cyc said he was 'twenty-fi--'. 

Jamie Madrox is age 21 during his debut in Giant-Size Fantastic Four #4. 

Shang-Chi is age 18 during his debut in Master of Kung Fu #1. 

Nightcrawler turns 21 in UXM Annual 4. 

In Marvel Graphic Novel 4, Sunspot is 14. In New Mutants 2, Karma is 19, Cannonball is 16, Sunspot is 13, Wolfsbane is 14. A later latters page corrected the ages from NM 2 to Sunspot 14 and Wolfsbane 13. 

Kitty Pryde is 13 and a half in UXM 129. She turns 14 in the UXM 160s and New Mutants 3, 15 in Excalibur 26, and 'barely 16' in UXM 379. 

Cloak (age 17) and Dagger (age 16) debut in Spectacular Spider-Man 62. 

Rogue was age 17 when she joined the X-Men in UXM 171. 

Gambit was 18 when he fled after marrying Belladonna. Sometime thereafter, he was with the Marauders during the Morlock Massacre, when he would have been age >18. 

Marrow (Sarah) was 9 during the Morlock Massacre. 

Katherine Power (Energizer) was in kindergarten (age 6) at her debut. 

Magik (Illyana Rasputin) was age 7 when she went to Limbo, and returned immediately after at age 14. 

Dracula was born in 1430, historically in November or December. 

Jubilee was 15 at her debut in UXM 244. The Generation X collector's preview seemed to retcon her back to age 13 and a half, and later in Generation X 65-69 she is age 16.

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:15 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
Shang-Chi is age 18 during his debut in Master of Kung Fu #1. 
<<<

Are you sure? 


watching: smallville

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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:35 pm    
By wolframbane

Thanks for the heads-up. I consulted the OHMU Marvel Knights. Shang-Chi was age 19 during his debut in Special Marvel Edition 15.

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:21 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hoo-boy...I have a bunch of age references, either in stories as published or in subsequent stories that established ages for earlier tales. Here are some, not counting flashbacks, in no particular order... 

Sue Storm  20 in FF 1 
James Proudstar  11 in XFOR -1 
Alicia Masters  19 in FF 9 [see FF 270] 
Hank McCoy  18 in UX 2; 20 in X:HY 22 
Bobby Drake  15 in UX 4; 18 in X 32 
Warren Worthington  18 in UX 5 
Ashley Martin  10 in X:HY 10 
Rich Ryder  17 in NO 6 
Jean Grey  24 in UX 138 
Illyana Rasputin  13 in UX 160 
Dani Moonstar  15 in M/GN 4 
Rogue  18 in UX 182 
Peter Rasputin  nearly 20 in UX 183 
Heather Hudson  29 in AF 13 
Dave Cox  36 in CA 300 
Jack Power  going on 8 in PP 6 
Angelica Jones  13 in FS 2 
Elizabeth Twoyoungmen  19 in AF 15 
Vance Astrovik  17 in THING 27 
Roberto DaCosta  14 in FA 1 and FA 5 
Tabitha Smith  14 in XF 22 
Jeff Wilde  18 in MK 4 
Kristy Watson  13 in PPTSS 153 
Alex Power  13 in PP 60 
Matthew Raven  54 in SM:LY 1 
Phoebe Maars  31 in NAMOR 14 
Caleb Alexander  60 in NAMOR 19 
Rachel Carpenter  7 in AWC 75 
Ginger Beach  19 in WM 5 
Nick Collins  8 in DL2 6 
Jason and Jon Powell  11 in DHAWK 9 
Julie Power  11 in PP 45 
Kitty Pryde  15 in XCAL 24 
Hallie Tanaka  15 during Onslaught [TB 33-FB] 
Kid Deadpool  DP 51 
Ben Urich  52 in DB 1 
Chris Bradley  15 in XU 15 
Mattie Franklin  15 in ASM2 5 
Diamondhead  43 in NO2 2 
Jesse Bedlam  19 in XFOR 87 
Christopher Bedlam  21 in XFOR 87 
Axel Cluney  27 in XFOR 116 
Ameiko Sabuki  23 in CVVB:E 4 
Jamie Madrox  21 in GSFF 4 
Kurt Wagner  21 in UX@ 4 
Robert Frank, Jr.  32 in V&SW 2 
Janet Van Dyne  23 in A 42 
Ezekiel  57 in ASM2 32 
Venus Dee Milo  19 in XS 1 
May Parker  72 in M/KSM 6 
Alexander Bont  93 in DD2 68 
Alecto  13 in FOUR 20 
Sofia Mantega  16 in NM2 1 
Franklin Richards  0 in FF@ 6; 4 in FF 228; 5 in M/TIO 98 and FF 270; 4 in FF@ 20; 6 in SS3 18 

I'm not sure I have abbreviations right, so let me know if you have questions.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:08 am    
By Selaboc

The recent Pulse House of M newspaper special lists Kevin Plunder's (Ka-zar) current age as 26.

			*	*	*

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:51 pm
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The recent Pulse House of M newspaper special lists Kevin Plunder's (Ka-zar) current age as 26. 
<<<

But this is an altered reality in which dead people now live. Surely people's ages can differ from their ages in the unaltered MU. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:59 am    
By Selaboc

Possibly, do we have any examples of people being differently aged in House of M vs regular Marvel U (where their age wasn't aretifically altered in the Marvel U to begin with)? 

Personally I always thought Ka-zar was a bit older than 26, however 26 is in line with the Waid/Kubert take of the character being 20-something.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:31 am    
By wolframbane

Spider-Man: The Jackal Files (August 1995) gives the age of Miles Warren/Jackal as 57.

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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:45 am   
By wolframbane

In Dazzler #1, Allison Blaire had just graduated pre-law (age 22) and her father wanted her to go to law school, but he became a musician instead. Therefore in Dazzler #1, she was age >22.

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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:55 am    
By wolframbane

I was inteested in compiling a master list of what every characters ages are 'currently'. I know that 'currently' is a highly subjective term with regards to the Marvel Timeline. Plus many characters ages tend to fluctuate, so in the end this might simply end up a fool's ploy. 

I do now that within many of the early Marvel Indexes (such as the Fantastic Four Index and X-Men Index v1) they actually catalogued the flow of time for the first several years of 'Marvel Time' quite accurately, with regards to months and years similiar to Paul Bourcier's Marvel Calendar. For example, Spider-Man became active in April of Year One, the X-Men became active in late October of Year Two. The overall timeline reviwed within the early indexes seems to go up to about Year Eight, about Uncanny X-Men #138 in 1980, when Kitty Pryde first joined the team.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:33 pm    
By wolframbane

I was interested in compiling a master list of the years of birth for various characters. I do now that within many of the early Marvel Indexes (such as the Fantastic Four Index and X-Men Index v1) they actually catalogued the flow of time for the first several years of 'Marvel Time' quite accurately, with regards to months and years similiar to Paul Bourcier's Marvel Calendar. For example, Spider-Man became active in April of Year One, the X-Men became active in late October of Year Two. The overall timeline reviwed within the early indexes seems to go up to about Year Eight, about Uncanny X-Men #138 in 1980, when Kitty Pryde first joined the team. 

For this I have decided to determine their 'Marvel Year' of birth. Here is a list of birth years that I have just compiled based upon the X-Men Index v1. Assuming that the Fantastic Four and Spiderman appeared in Year One, the X-Men in Year Two, based on the index. 

For simplicity sake, Marvel Year will be called 'MY' (so Marvel Year 1 is MY1; note there is a Marvel Year Zero or MY0). 

Ororo Munroe was born MY -17. (Age 25 in UXM 102 during Y 8) 
Henry McCoy was born MY -16. (Age 18 in UXM 1 during MY 2) 
Jean Grey was born MY -15. (Age 18 in UXM 24 during MY 3) 
Scott Summers was born MY -15. (Age 17 in UXM 1 during MY 2) 
Warren Worthington was born MY -15. (Age 17 in UXM 1 during MY 2) 
Peter Parker was born MY -15. (Age 16 in AMF 15 during MY 1) 
Bobby Drake was born MY -14. (Age 16 in UXM 1 during MY 2) 
Kurt Wagner was born MY -13. (Age 21 in UXM An 4 during MY 8) 
Alex Summers was born MY -11. (Age 15 in UXM 54 during MY 4) 
Kitty Pryde was born MY -5. (Age 13 in UXM 129 during MY 8)

Last edited by wolframbane on Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:38 pm    
By PeteD

Did anyone else notice that in the Disassembled stories the Scarlet Witch seemed to have got stuck in her teens. Captain America made a reference to her being only a 'kid' or something similar, rather than a woman when challenged over his kissing Wanda. 

Even if she was 12-13 when she first joined the Avengers that would put her in her mid-twenties now. 

Pete.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:49 pm    
By wolframbane

Regarding the ages of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. The Official handbook of the Marvel Universe: Golden Age 2004 mentions that Whizzer and Miss America gave birth to their second child (who was stillborn) in 1958. Pietro and Wanda were born that same night. As well, this was also the same night that Russoff tried to use the Darkhold to open a gateway at Wundagore to summon Chthon but was stopped by the Knights of Wundagore, an event which led to Wanda having mystical potential. 

If Pietro and Wanda were born in 1958 rather than much later, their longevity can eaily be explained but their mutant nature, inherited from their father Magneto. he himself is apparently long lived. Even before his rejuvenation to a younger age in the past few years, he still had the vitality of a man decades younger during the first few years he fought the X-Men. He age is evident as he grew up in Auchwitz, giving a birthdate of circa 1928. Therefore Wanda and Pietro may have inherited their dad's longevity and be born in 1958, but still be physically young.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:57 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Didn't some handbook or another indicate that the High Evolutionary had placed the infant Pietro and Wanda in stasis for several decades before finally deciding to give them to the gypsies? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:37 pm   
By wolframbane

Compiled Definitive List for Years of Birth 

1883 
Sir Denis Nayland Smith 

1892 
Wolverine 

1899 
Red Skull 

1900 
Baron Zemo 

1909 
Achilles 

1910 
Blazing Skull 

1914 
Puck 

1917 
Captain America 

1920 
Black Fox, Red Raven 

1925 
Bucky 

1928 
Magneto, Spider-Woman 

1929 
Grand Director 

1930 
Dr. Strange 

1934 
Marvel Boy 

1941 
Nomad 

1958 
Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch 

YEAR -42 
Kingpin 

YEAR -32 
Vanessa Fisk 

YEAR -28 
Thing 

YEAR -27 
Mr. Fantastic 

YEAR -20 
Wasp 

YEAR -19 
Invisible Woman 

YEAR -18 
Alicia Masters 

YEAR -17 
Storm 

YEAR -16 
Beast, Dark Beast, Richard Fisk 

YEAR -15 
Jean Grey, Cyclops, Archangel, Spider-Man, Gwen Stacy, Flash Thompson, Liz Allen, Harry Osborn, Jessica Jones, Human Torch, MJ Watson, Madrox 

YEAR -14 
Iceman 

YEAR -13 
Nightcrawler 

YEAR -11 
Havok, Shang-Chi 

YEAR -5 
Shadowcat 

YEAR 4 
Franklin Richards

Last edited by wolframbane on Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:21 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

wolframbane, 

There's no need to reformat, repackage and repost the same information over and over again. Post it once. We'll get it. 


watching: little league world series

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Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:38 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Be careful about placing too much faith in these references. Characters tend to be whatever age the story requires. See for instance, Franklin Richards, Kitty Pryde, Billy Connors, Cassie Lang, and the Power Pack kids. 

Hell, the letters page of Journey Into Mystery #122 says that Thor is 28. 

Another example: May Parker. Your citation is that she was born in 1923, at the latest,* yet Paul Bourcier's citation is that she is recently 72. 


watching: little league world series 

*Actually your citation was that she was born in 1923, at the earliest, 

Quote: 
>>>
Ben and May Parker were engaged (age >18) during the Great Depression (<1941), giving a birthdate of >1923. 
<<<

but judging by your logic (was more than 18 no later than 1941), I believe that was a typo on your part and you meant to say "giving a birthdate of <1923" (read as "less than (or earlier than) 1923"), not ">1923".

			*	*	*

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:46 am    
By wolframbane

Unfortunately Admin, you are exactly right when it comes to using everchanging age references within stories. I always tend to use the most recently published references as current canon, with exceptions where the most recent story is outweighed by a mountain of other evidence. 

For Franklin, he has had several situatios (at least two) where circumstances have accelerated him to adulthood, only to later be restored to childhood. It is entirely possible that he he restored to a much younger age then orignally intended on at least on occasion. 

You were right about my mistake for Aunt May, her birthdate should have been <1923, not >1923. But given the sliding timeline would make her and Ben increasingly older (eventually even too old for Ben to have realistically been around during the Depression AND being Richard Parker's 'much older' brother) and the fact that the age 72 reference is far more recent, her birthdate will undoubtably be retconned from <1923 to 72 years ago. 

Same logic with the Punisher being 'stuck' during Vietnam, that is another kettle of fish entirely.

			*	*	*

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:34 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
For Franklin, he has had several situatios (at least two) where circumstances have accelerated him to adulthood, only to later be restored to childhood. It is entirely possible that he he restored to a much younger age then orignally intended on at least on occasion. 
<<<

Yeah, I'm aware of all that. But I was referring to stories between age conversions, and stories since the most recent age conversion. He appears to be anywhere from six to ten, based on the story's needs. 

Re: May Parker's depression-era past being a clue to her age or her birthdate, that's kind of my point. It's dangerous to place too much weight on these references, just as Paul Bourcier's 72 citation is difficult, because it's bound to change. If Paul's correct that approximately 24 years have passed in the Marvel Age, then May was barely past her mid-forties in her first appearance. May Parker hasn't aged appreciably in the last forty years, and I daresay she won't age at all, in the next thirty. 


watching: live from

			*	*	*

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:45 pm  
By meta

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
YEAR -16 
Beast, Dark Beast, 
<<<

Beast and Dark Beast may have technically been born at the same time, BUT Dark Beast is in fact 20 years older than his 616 Counter Part. When he, Sugar Man and Holocaust crossed over from the Age of Apocalyse all of them returned 20 years earlier that current time. Giving Sugar Man time to play with the Genosian Mutates, Dark Beast time to play with the Morlocks and Holocaust time to, well, float around in space encased in ice. So although he was born in BM 16 for age purposes his birth could be pushed back to BM 36. As the AoA didn't technically have an MY 1 


Oh and as for Franklin Richards he did celebrate his 8th birthday recently in Marvel Knights 4.

			*	*	*

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:48 pm    
By wolframbane

True enuff Meta. Dark Beast would be technically 20 years older than the Beast. Chronological anomalies affecting age are downright common in the Marvel Universe. Captain America was 28 when he was frozen in 1945, and physically 28 when he awoke in MY 2. Technically, for age purposes, his year of birth would be MY -26. Same for Red Skull, he was born in 1899 but has a cloned body of Cap. 

An interesting thing about LegionQuest (and the appearance of Dark Beast and company in our timeline) occuring '20 year ago' when Xavier and Magnus were in Israel. The first reference to them in Israel was back in UXM 161 (fb), whic also mentioned it as '20 years ago'. But UXM 161 (modern) itself occured just a few short years before LegionQuest. I would assume that the more recent reference to '20 years ago' in legionQuest is canon, and in UXM 161 (fb) is would be more appropriately 'over 20 years ago' or 'approximately 20 years ago'.

			*	*	*

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:54 pm    
By wolframbane

Franklin had his 8th birthday in Marvel Knights #4 and his next birthday was mentioned as being 'soon' in FF #505. According to the FF Index, this would have been late August of YEAR 4.

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Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:12 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
If Paul's correct that approximately 24 years have passed in the Marvel Age, then May was barely past her mid-forties in her first appearance.  
<<<

Actually, I estimate that it's been 22 years since Amazing Fantasy #15, but yes, Russ has a point. There's no way May was in her forties when Spidey debuted, and 72 certainly seems to be on the young side for now; I'd believe 82. Then again, is the woman who was resurrected after dying a poignant death really Aunt May? 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:06 pm    
By wolframbane

Repetitive info deleted. There we go. 

Last edited by wolframbane on Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:40 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:31 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
Thing/Ben Grimm born YEAR -28 (age >29 during FF 1/YEAR 1) 

John Jameson born YEAR -28 (age >29 during AMS 1/YEAR 1) 

3-D Man/Chuck Chandler born 1929 (age >29 in 1958, per OHMUGA) 
<<<

This is your second warning (in the same thread, no less). Stop posting the same information, over and over again.

			*	*	*

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:45 am    
By Enda80

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
True enuff Meta. Dark Beast would be technically 20 years older than the Beast. Chronological anomalies affecting age are downright common in the Marvel Universe. Captain America was 28 when he was frozen in 1945, and physically 28 when he awoke in MY 2. Technically, for age purposes, his year of birth would be MY -26. Same for Red Skull, he was born in 1899 but has a cloned body of Cap. 
<<<

That reminds me. Going an erroneous fb that showed Elektra's parents as active during World War II, I rattled off various means of age suppresion. 
A few others have occurred to me since. So here are some characters where we can leave a fb as an absolute referenc versus a relative reference: 

1. Infinity Formula (Nick Fury)-plenty of pre-modern era appearances 
2. Bloodstone (Maha Yogi, Ulysses Bloodstone-so far as I k now none of the other Bloodstone users have been established as having found theirs before the modern era)-Bloodstone has a few pre-modern 
3. Elixir Vitae (Fu Manchu)-a few pre-modern era appearanaces, 
4. Pool of Blood (Yellow Claw and Orphelus-check the YC's Golden Age Handbook) Jean-Marc Lofficier has explained that he intended to publish a story linking the Tomb of Dracula I#15 story to other characters, such as the Aged Ghenghis-Yellow Claw has a few pre-modern 
5. Baron Mordo, per Doc III#8/2, stayed young via his presence in the Ancient One's sanctuary (Mordo was shown as active in the 1940's) 
6. Compound X (Baron Zemo) 
7. mind transference into cloned bodies (Maelstrom, Phaeder, the Hate-Monger, Arnim Zola, possibly Baron Strucker [Fury#1 shows he was aware of the process], Kang, et al.] 
8. Fountain of Youth (Tyrannus) 
9. Super-Soldier Formula variant (Black Widow per MCP#130) 
10. Night Raven was given immortality by Yi Yang, so his 1980's published appearances for the most part can remain absolute references. 

Anyone think of any other means? Has it been stated how Baron Strucker stays young? Strucker has racked up an impressive number of pre-modern era appearances (since he was not put in suspended animation the way the Red Skull was), so explaining his age supression would be helpful. 


I think Marvel the Lost Generation had a letters page stating the some of Doctor Strange's appearances in the 1960's Strange Tales could have taken place in the pre-modern era. There is that fb with Mortigan Goth to consider. Should we treat as 1960's absolutely or "X-30 years). 

Since discerning whether references are absolute ("1968") or relative ("15 years ago") can affect chronology, it is an interesting thing to sort out. 

Anyway as Michael Hoskin, Ronald Byrd, and Jeff Christiansen said 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mastersofobscurity/message/18711 

">3) Michael: Accept the dates if the information is pertinent to the 
>character history, but just accept that this is a fictional universe and 
>that the sliding timescale causes problems. Don't ask, don't tell. 

*nodnod* That's me in a nutshell. I see little point in concocting far-fetched explanations for why the Sablinovas/Parkers/Jamesons/Howlers/Carters/Maximoffs 
haven't aged appropriately when, as time goes on, we're just going to wind up with even more characters who don't look old enough, whether it be Captain Terror or Peggy Chandler. 
There's always the fan-theory that everyone IS that old, and Franklin&nbsp;fixed it all.  

MH 


Of course, problematic characters include the following. One might have to write off fbs in order to accomdate them. 
Jimmy Woo (did he fight the Yellow Claw in the absolute 1950's or ("X-20 years ago") 
Phil and Doris Sheldon (they were adults in WW II yet still alive in the modern era at least up to the death of Gwen Stacy? Their children were younger than John Jameson!) 
Captain Terror 
Peggy Carter (if she did not serve as a WWII resistance fighter, then many fbs have to be written off-and her parents were still alive within the last decade-however, that would totally destroy her past with Cap) 
Gabrielle Haller 
Anna Kapelbaum (supposed to be concentration camp survivors...maybe the Judas Man was involved) 
May Fitzpatrick Parker (her dad was an OSS agent in WW II) 

I was rather disheartened when a recent ASM issue refer to Ben Parker as one of Captain America's generation. 


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mastersofobscurity/message/18707

Last edited by Enda80 on Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:34 am; edited 6 times in total

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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:59 am    
By JLH

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Going an erroneous fb that showed Elektra's parents .... 

Did Elektra's parents were active during World War II? 

How does Baron Strucker stay young? 

Has it been stated how Baron Strucker stays young? 
<<<

Do you have any sense of common courtesy for the people on this board? Your posts resemble something a person typed using their rear end and a broken mirror to see behind them. Russ scolds one guy for posting the same thing over and over, then you follow it up by bringing up that inane Elektra flashback argument yet again when the post isn't even off the first page. So what the flashback said they were active in WWII? Last I checked, Reed Richard & Ben Grimm have a few wars on their belts they shouldn't. If Christmas can occur multiple times per year for Marvel characters, who's to say the mention of the second World War isn't just as maleable an event?

			*	*	*

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:10 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Do you suppose that when reality is reset at the end of House of M, everyone in the MU will be physically younger?  

(Hey, Steve Rogers was aged in HOM, so it's possible...)
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:40 am    
By Enda80

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
Thomas Halloway (Angel) was born in the late 1970s according to Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Golden Age Marvel 2004.  

Frank Castle (Punisher) served in the Vietnam War (1968-1975) for five years, and had to be minimum age to enlist in US Army (18), so a borthdate of <1950. 

Forge, Lionel Jefferies, Madison Jefferies, Abraham Kieros (War) and Water Wizard (Peter Van Zante) fought in the Vietnam War (ended 1975). Assuming minmum age <18 to enlist, birthdates of <1957. 
<<<


He was actually born in the 1870's (Halloway). 

Since P Year One established that the death of Castle's family took place in the modern era, Vietnam references are not absolute. 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mastersofobscurity/message/5905 

Some other characters that are tricky: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mastersofobscurity/message/5905

			*	*	*

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:13 pm    
By rhod

Punisher makes for a confusing case- original story has his family killed shortly after he returns (early) from Nam, 
Punisher-Bloodlines then retcons this, to having him be pretty much the last one out of Saigon, then he gets married, his family are then killed about a decade later. 
The recent Ennis stories seem to prefer the original though, with the gravestones clearly marked ...-1976 on all 3. 
Does Frank have a Handbook entry anywhere? Any idea what the official line is? 

[For the time being I'm avoiding the issue of 'crossfire of a Mob war' vs. 'witnesses to an execution' - this has also changed more than once over the last 30 years]

			*	*	*

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:03 pm    
By Somebody

meta wrote: 
>>>
wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
YEAR -16 
Beast, Dark Beast, 
<<<


Beast and Dark Beast may have technically been born at the same time, BUT Dark Beast is in fact 20 years older than his 616 Counter Part. When he, Sugar Man and Holocaust crossed over from the Age of Apocalyse all of them returned 20 years earlier that current time. Giving Sugar Man time to play with the Genosian Mutates, Dark Beast time to play with the Morlocks and Holocaust time to, well, float around in space encased in ice. So although he was born in BM 16 for age purposes his birth could be pushed back to BM 36. 
<<<

Well, yeah (although it was crystal, not ice for Holo ) - but given how easily and readily AoA Hank played around with his genetic structure in XMU (10?), I wouldn't be surprised to find that he artifically kept himself young. 

Not that that really changes the main point here, I just felt like pointing it out 

			*	*	*

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:04 pm    
By SeanCurtin

meta wrote: 
>>>
Beast and Dark Beast may have technically been born at the same time, BUT Dark Beast is in fact 20 years older than his 616 Counter Part. When he, Sugar Man and Holocaust crossed over from the Age of Apocalyse all of them returned 20 years earlier that current time. 
<<<

Only Dark Beast and Sugar Man travelled back in time. X-Man and Holocaust both arrived in the present. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:47 pm    
By wolframbane

Is anyone aware if there was any sreference of a specific age Legion (David Haller) was when he first appeared? The OHOTMU stated he was in his 'late teens' when he first met his father Xavier (btwn age 15-19), but still considered a minor in Israel (age <18). I was curious as to how long Xavier had stayed in Israel with Gabrielle Haller. They met in Israel 20 years before the events of UXM 161 or LegionQuest. And Xavier would of had to have left at least half a year before Legion's birth, because he was never aware that Gaby was pregnant.

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 7:08 pm    
By Enda80

As Ronald Byrd pointed out: 


"It might be fun to briefly discuss some of the other Marvel characters who fought in "the Vietnam War" (Flash Thompson, Thunderbird, Red Wolf, Forge, Jim Rhodes, the Green Liberation Front, Devil-Slayer, Warhawk, Typeface, and others (but not the Half-Fulls, I suppose, they were in the war long enough ago to have, after getting out, become the fathers of various teenagers/20-somethings such as Night Thrasher and Silhouette, so their hitches couldn't have coincided with Castle's (unless of course it says so in his New Warriors appearance, I'll have to check, in which case...sigh)), but as far as I know none of them have ever been said to have served with Castle (it'd be interesting to get them all together in one story, though), so that might be going too far afield; anyway, I'll probably need every word allowable just to cover all of this." 


In any of the Bengal's appearances or the Half-Fulls, did Castle ever say "I fought in that war, too" or words to that effect? He did meet the Bengal at least once in an early issue of New Warriors I. I had the issue, went through, did not encounter dialogue to that effect. 

Aside from that, the Bengal is problematic, because his origin was that he was a young boy (looking no more than seven) whose village was attacked by US soldiers. Among the soldiers in his origin fb who appeared elsewhere (other than in Bengal stories): 

Willie Lincoln 
Will Talltrees 
Jim Rhodes 

As I recall, DD was entertaining troops in Willie Lincoln's first appearance.....should we ignore that scene? Otherwise, Lincoln had to have been in Southeast Asia for ten years (to give the Bengal time to become an adult.) 

http://www.manwithoutfear.com/interviews/ddINTERVIEW.shtml?id=Nicieza 

"Bengal ended up appearing in DD, New Warriors, an IRON MAN/Rhodey story I did, and to tell you the truth, a couple of others I've forgotten!" 

Where did the War Machine meets Bengal story happen? The Gap?

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Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:38 am    
By wolframbane

Professor X himself was explicitly stated as having fought within the Korean War up until about comics published during the mid-1980s. Interestingly, after that time they seemed to have stopped referring to it as Korean and more as a conflict within Southeast Asia. But in at least one depiction of his involvement in Asia, Xavier was shown wearing combat fatigues and fighting in an environment that seems to resemble the Vietnam War. It would 'seem' like an unmentioned retcon, and as real time continues even Vietnam will become unviable. 

Another characters of note whose origin lies in the Vietnam War is Karma of the New Mutants. 

Personally I always felt that the events of the Korean and Vietnam War in the Marvel universe which must ultimately become retconned may have occurred with the country of Sin Cong, a fictional southeast Asian country introduced in Avengers v1 #18 [7.65]. As a fictional country, its timeline is not fixed and can slide along with the rest of Marvel continuity and can encompass many of the events of both the Korean and Vietnam conflicts.

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Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:30 pm    
By wolframbane

According to the novel 'Doc Savage: His Apocalyptic Life', Sax Rohmer's character Fu Manchu was born in 1840. He is the father of Shang Chi, the Master of Kung Fu.

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Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:37 pm    
By wolframbane

According to the Doc Savage pulp novels by Lester Dent, the character of Doc Savage was born November 12, 1901. His cousin Pat Savage was born in 1914.

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Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:39 pm    
By wolframbane

In X-Men Forever 4 [4.01], a 16 year old Cain Marko (possessed by the mind of his future self) came across a incubator that had an infant Toad inside. Therefore, Juggernaut is 16 years older than Toad.

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Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:56 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
According to the novel 'Doc Savage: His Apocalyptic Life', Sax Rohmer's character Fu Manchu was born in 1840. He is the father of Shang Chi, the Master of Kung Fu. 
<<<

That's not a novel. It's a fake biography, and has nothing to do with the Marvel Universe. That biography also claims that Doc Savage is related to Fu Manchu, Phineas Fogg, the Scarlet Pimpernel, and about three hundred other fictional characters. 


watching: american morning

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Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:39 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
Professor X himself was explicitly stated as having fought within the Korean War up until about comics published during the mid-1980s. Interestingly, after that time they seemed to have stopped referring to it as Korean and more as a conflict within Southeast Asia. But in at least one depiction of his involvement in Asia, Xavier was shown wearing combat fatigues and fighting in an environment that seems to resemble the Vietnam War. It would 'seem' like an unmentioned retcon, and as real time continues even Vietnam will become unviable. 
<<<

It was an unnamed Vietnam for a while, and now Claremont's abandoned even that idea - he wrote a flashback story which had Xavier joining the army to prove himself to Moira, rather than simply being drafted as was previously the case. The logic for this retcon, apparently, is that Xavier is now simply too young to have been drafted, and his military career is now in some unspecified post-Vietnam conflict which is being kept deliberately vague.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:31 am    
By Col_Fury

From this subject: 

Quote: 
>>>
1. Infinity Formula (Nick Fury)-plenty of pre-modern era appearances  
<<<


And from the Iron Man's Origin subject: 

Quote: 
>>>
Does Gabe Jones' World War II career remain canon? Or Dum Dum Dugan's? Or are all SHIELD agents sucking on the Infinity Formula?  
<<<

Finally, an answer! From the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Marvel Knights 2005, no less. 


Quote: 
>>>
Over the course of the war,(WWII) exposure to Fury's blood introduced the Infinity Formula into the other Howlers' bloodstreams as well, causing them to remain unusually vital well into old age. 
<<<

This has been bugging me for years. Why didn't I read this six months ago when I bought it?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:36 pm    
By Somebody

Eh? Doesn't Fury need the Formula applied yearly to avoid rapid aging and death? And didn't he keep it a secret for years because he was being extorted for tons of cash over it to avoid the aforementioned side effect? 

And wouldn't the Howlers thus have aged and died years ago if that explaination is taken as read?

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Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:12 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Yeah, I believe that Handbook explanation is contradicted by the stories, as I read them. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:40 pm    
By Col_Fury

The handbook even listed the events of Marvel Spotlight 31 & NF3 30 & 31... odd. I guess I was just excited to see the problem even addressed... Maybe Fury's blood acted as a diluted form of the Formula? But you're right, it doesn't make as much sense as it should. Dang it.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:13 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I can see what the HANDBOOK is trying to do, but I agree that they've got themselves tied up in knots and should simply have deleted any reference to the blackmail arc if they were going to take that route. 

I've said for a long time now that the Infinity Formula is a bad idea, that giving Fury super-slow-aging powers damages the character, and that in an ideal world we'd just kick the Howling Commandos' World War II stories out of continuity altogether. It's not like anyone makes much use of them. 

But if Fury's World War II career has to stay, then some explanation is needed for why the Howling Commandos are very obvously too young to have fought in World War II. And the Infinity Formula is a bad explanation because it only applies to Fury, meaning that there must be another, quite separate explanation for the other Howling Commandos. That stretches credibility to a ludicrous degree, as if the basic concept wasn't absurd enough to start with. The Handbook is making a bold effort to fudge continuity so that the same single explanation applies to all of the Howling Commandos. It's the right way to go, but they haven't done it right. 

But it seems to me that unless this area of continuity is to descend into total farce (and a strong argument can be made that this happened years ago), either the Commandos' WWII careers should be deleted, or the blackmail story should be removed so that the Howlers can all share the same explanation for their slow aging. I'd rather have a retconned continuity that made sense than the current one which is utterly stupid.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:44 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
in an ideal world we'd just kick the Howling Commandos' World War II stories out of continuity altogether. It's not like anyone makes much use of them. 
<<<

Depends. I think Marvel makes use of them. Sometimes, it seems like two consecutive years can't pass without a new story (or flashback, at least) dealing with the Howlers in WWII. 


watching: south florida v penn state

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Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 6:26 pm    
By Enda80

Actually, Fury has made extensive fb appearances during World War II with the Howlers. 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1184&highlight=zemo 

Baron Strucker probably has one of the most extensive flashbacks to the pre-modern era records of any villain. I don't think that the Red Skull shows up in as many different titles (since he was in suspended animation, the Red Skull mostly only shows in fbs in Captain America stories). 

Strucker was in fbs or fb stories in Gambit III#10, X-Men:True Friends#1-3, Rampaging Hulk Vol.1 #23, X-Force#64, Invaders#30, Daredevil#295, 
Uncanny X-Men #268, Fury#1 Captain Savage And His Leatherneck Raiders #2-4, Namor, The Sub-Mariner #10, Untold Tales of Spider-Man#-1, Uncanny X-Men #161, and Marvel Universe#1-3. I have probably missed a few. 

http://home.gate.net/~images/ww2b.html has the Howlers non-title mission adventures. 


Dr. Strange (1) #50-51 (1982), Marvel Comics Presents #77-79, Captain America (3) #20-21, Gambit (2) #10, Captain America/ Nick Fury: The Otherworld War (2001), Captain America Soldier of Liberty#12 

Marvels#1 
Nick Fury: Agent of SHIELD (2): 3-5, 11 
Fury: 1 
Fury/Agent 13: 1-2 
Invaders (1): 35 
Captain America (1): 383 
Captain America (3): 32 
War Machine: 15-16 
Spider-Woman#42 
Captain America Annual#9 
Motormouth and Killpower#5 
Weapon X#14 and #23 
Marvel Premiere#31 
Nick Fury III#30 

Also, Nick Fury villain Colonel Klaue is Klaw's father, pace FF Unlimited#1/2.

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Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:27 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Actually, Fury has made extensive fb appearances during World War II with the Howlers. 
<<<

Where in this thread did anyone say differently, John? That's pretty common knowledge. 


Quote: 
>>>
Also, Nick Fury villain Colonel Klaue is Klaw's father, pace FF Unlimited#1/2. 
<<<

"Pace"? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:09 am    
By Enda80

jephyork wrote: 

>>>
Where in this thread did anyone say differently, John? That's pretty common knowledge. 
<<<


Paul O'Brien did.

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Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:17 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director


No, I didn't. I said "It's not like anyone makes much use of" the Howling Commandos' World War II stories, which is not the same thing as "nobody ever uses them."
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:49 pm    
By wolframbane

For Sage, OHOTMU:X-Men '04 states she first encountered Xavier just prior to her teenage years (perhaps about 12) immediately after Lucifer crushed his legs. 

Cameron Hodge and Candy Southern knew boarding Angel during his time at boarding school, so they would be his approximate age. 

Moira and Joe MacTaggart got divorced 20 years before UX 127. Her son Kevin (Proteus) was born thereafter, Joe never knew about the pregnancy.

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Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:55 am    
By Andrew Greaves

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
Kitty Pryde is 13 and a half in UXM 129. She turns 14 in the UXM 160s and New Mutants 3, 15 in Excalibur 26, and 'barely 16' in UXM 379. 
<<<

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Kitty Pryde  15 in XCAL 24 
<<<

Actually, Kitty notes that it will be a year before she can legally drive (in England). 

On a whim, I checked and found that the minimum driving age in England is 17, not 16. So it was her sixteenth birthday that Sat-Yr-Nine (as Courtney Ross) treated her to, not her fifteenth.

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Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:01 am    
By Andrew Greaves

Regarding the presence of real-world events within the Marvel Universe, notably World War II, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War, considering the lack of synchronization between Marvel time and real time, would it not be simplest to just translate the years in which those events took place into Marvel Years?

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Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:38 pm    
By Ocean Doot

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>1
Moira and Joe MacTaggart got divorced 20 years before UX 127. Her son Kevin (Proteus) was born thereafter, Joe never knew about the pregnancy. 
<<<

Sorry, I know this post is over six months old, but I can't help but note ... they never divorced. As I recall the dialogue in issue 127, Joe never granted Moira a divorce.

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Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:52 pm    
By Nathan P. Mahney

That's correct - he found being married to a Nobel Prize winner too valuable for his political career, if memory serves. Nevertheless, they did separate some 20 years before UX 127.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:39 pm    
By wolframbane

It took a while, but I think I managed to track down Cable's age. He was born circa UX 200-201 in Year 13, and he was sent to the future in XF 68 in Year 16. Although depicted as an infant, he was likely almost age 3. 

In XFOR 17, it was revealed he fought against Stryfe from 3783-3806 (23 years). In C&P 1-4, it was mentioned that he was raised by Slym and Redd Dayspring for 12 years upon his arrival in the future, followed by another 5 years before he began battling Stryfe. 

He left 3806 and arrived back around Year 2 in C2 -1. This was shortly before he faced new villain Vulture and met Wolverine in W/C, and met Prof X who was starting up his school but had not yet recruited Scott in C2 45. Although he has has some time travels since this oint, he has spent the better part of the last 2 decades in modern times. 

Cable Timeline: 
Year 13: Nathan born (age 0) 
Year 16: Transported to future (age 3) 
3766: Arrived in future (age 3) 
3778: Apocalypse slain (age 15) 
3783: Battles Stryfe (age 20) 
3806: Pursues Stryfe to past (age 43) 
Year 2: Arrives in past (age 43) 
Year 12: Joins New Mutants (age 53) 
Year 24: Currently active (age 65) 

By Year 24, Cable is 11 chronologicaly, but 65 biologically.

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Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:56 am    
By Somebody

And, see, you have to accept Paul B's twenty-ex years without qualification for that to work. To pick an easy example of why that doesn't work, in Cable #-1 (which you mentioned, ergo the easy example), you've got Wolfsbane who is clearly around 4 to 6, giving a range which is over-generous but serves the point. This is set in either Year 0 (probably) or 1 (maybe) clearly, since it predates in every chronological sense Cable/Wolverine, which was set before ASM 2. And in New Mutants v2 and New X-Men: Academy X, just the other side of M-Day, it was a plot point that Rahne was 19, not yet in her twenties and three years older than the 16-year old Elixir, young enough that the age difference wasn't necessarily insumountable, but old enough to put her on the wrong side of the teacher/pupil divide. Your reading would put her in her early thirties 

Here's a similar-but-far-more-detailed reading of Spider-Man's age. 

The general rule of thumb is 12-15 years, making Cable somewhere in his fifties on his chronological line (although Cable/Deadpool #15-19 makes it impossible to give a straight answer to his biological age).

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Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:40 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Well, Marvel still wants us to believe Spider-Man is in his mid 20's, and I choose to overlook that. So people who enjoy the idea of a calender can just turn around and ignore the comment that Wolfsbane is only 19 years old. Marvel may not be able to keep track, but we know the truth! 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:45 am    
By Somebody

Like I said though, the closeness in ages was key to the story, as opposed to a throwaway remark. The whole dynamic would have been different had she been twice his age.

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Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:27 am   
By rhod

An obvious flaw in the above timeline is the placement of UX201 in year 13 (Cable's birth) and New Mutants 86 in year 12 (Cable joins the New Mutants), since UX 201 was published approximately 4 years earlier than NM 86. 
This doesn't really help things as far as Cable's age goes, or Wolfsbane's either, but I thought I should mention it.
_________________
"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

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Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:39 pm    
By wolframbane

For the X-Men Timeline I am currently constructing, I have decided to use Paul B's 20+ year Marvel Calender as the basis for it. This does unfortunately cause many indiscrepencies to crop up (particularly in more recent years), but then constructing a Marvel Timeline in any way causes them to crop up.  

I have decided to place the events of Cable arriving in modern times no later than Year 2 because of the early appearance of Vulture and Prof X just starting his school. It also works for Wolverine as a member of Department H (between Yr -2 and Yr 8). Rahne's age is a bit more difficult. I calculated her birthdate as approximately Yr -1 (she was 13 when she joined the New mutants in Year 12). I couldn't really make her meeting Cable any earlier. If Cable -1 took place in Yr 2, this would make her three. She looked a little old for age 3, but I couldn't place it any later nor push her birthdate back any farther. Unfortunately, this does not work with her being 19 is the later story.  

Thanks rhod for pointing out the error in my timeline. I got the date of Cable joining the New Mutants mixed-up with the date the NM formed!!

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Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:54 pm    
By Somebody

But Year 2 is too late for that meeting by any standard - how the hell can Amazing Spider-Man v1 #2 and a scene which predates Uncanny X-Men #1 by some way possibly be in Y2 or later?! Never mind the fact that time elapses between Cable Minus One and Cable #46 & Wolverine/Cable, pushing it further back still! 

You're tying yourself in knots to further a series of assumptions which aren't supported by the way characters are presented at any point.

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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:53 pm    
By Andrew Greaves

Kitty Pryde was 13.5 when she first appeared in UXM 129. She turned 14 sometime from UXM 162 to UXM 166, was fifteen in OHotMU-DE 11, celebrated her fifteenth birthday in EXC 26, was 'barely 16' in UXM 379, and was remembering joining the X-Men five years ago in XMU (v1) 36. 

Something funny is going on here. 

Okay, WI? (v2) 33, which diverged with UXM 137, established that Rachel Summers was conceived during UXM 132. This is assuming temporal parallelism, but Rachel was noted as being nine months old during the events of Secret Wars I, which means that they took place eighteen months after Kitty joined the team. 

A point to note about EXC 26 is that Kitty remarks on having to wait another year before being able to legally drive. However, the minimum driving age in England is 17, not 16 like in North America. This might be classified as being an editorial error. 

As for UXM 379, considering the brevity of time between it and XMU (v1) 36, she should be 'barely 18', not 'barely 16'. 

This means that Kitty Pryde was born in MY-5, joined the X-Men in MY 8, founded Excalibur in MY 10, and dissolved Excalibur in MY 12. Note that Year 21 of Paul's calendar is MY 13.

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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:44 am    
By Enda80

Oh, yeah, the scene where Scott and Phoenix had sex on a mud butte (also homaged in X-Men/Titans).

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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:42 am    
By Somebody

Andrew Greaves wrote: 
>>>
Kitty Pryde was 13.5 when she first appeared in UXM 129. She turned 14 sometime from UXM 162 to UXM 166, was fifteen in OHotMU-DE 11, celebrated her fifteenth birthday in EXC 26, was 'barely 16' in UXM 379, and was remembering joining the X-Men five years ago in XMU (v1) 36. 

Something funny is going on here. 

A point to note about EXC 26 is that Kitty remarks on having to wait another year before being able to legally drive. However, the minimum driving age in England is 17, not 16 like in North America. This might be classified as being an editorial error. 

As for UXM 379, considering the brevity of time between it and XMU (v1) 36, she should be 'barely 18', not 'barely 16'. 

This means that Kitty Pryde was born in MY-5, joined the X-Men in MY 8, founded Excalibur in MY 10, and dissolved Excalibur in MY 12. Note that Year 21 of Paul's calendar is MY 13. 
<<<

It's the "barely 16" reference that's the problem - previously, she'd been "old enough to drink" (UK = 18+) in late Excalibur. Even Claremont backtracked on that one later. Leave the "drive" one in. 


Andrew Greaves wrote: 
>>>
Okay, WI? (v2) 33, which diverged with UXM 137, established that Rachel Summers was conceived during UXM 132. This is assuming temporal parallelism, but Rachel was noted as being nine months old during the events of Secret Wars I, which means that they took place eighteen months after Kitty joined the team. 
<<<

Excalibur #52 established that, whether or not there was a native Phoenix in Rachel's timeline, Jean was never replaced.

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Thread 19

Posted: 18 Jan 2007 09:14 pm    Post subject: Need FF Info
By Dhall

Hi, I am trying to place Death's Head 9 into FF Chronology. In that issue all 4 members of the FF plus Franklin, are present at Four Freedoms Plaza (in 1989) 

Sue mentions to Ben, I thought youd have learnt some responsibility as the Fantastic Fours leader. 

Ben is definitly The Thing. 

Death's Head uses Reed's time machine. 

The issue is dated August 1989. 

It should also be sometime before FF 338, where the FF meet Death's Head for the second time. 

By the way, I cannot find a listing for Iron Man 2020. Am I looking in the wrong places? 

Thanks! 

Dave H

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Posted: 19 Jan 2007 11:56 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Well, I don't have the Death's Head issue, but as the resident FF expert, I'll see what I can do to help... 

Reed and Sue don't return to the Baxter Building (and the team) until FF #326, so it's clearly after that. 

The issue also shows Ben is NOT in his "pineapple Thing" state, so it must be after FF #327. (Ben must be wearing his Thing exo-skeleton in DH 9.) 

In #328, the FF are captured by a rogue Watcher and placed in suspended animation until #333, so it can't be between those issues. 

Also, to my recollection, FF #327 leads directly into #328 without a break, so I don't think it can go between those two issues. 

FF #334-336 are relatively self-contained and probably shouldn't be broken up if it can be avoided. Likewise, #337-346. 

So it looks like the biggest opening is between FF #333 and #334, which is where the "Atlantis Attacks" crossovers occur. Without having the issues at hand, I would suggest placing DH 9 before the crossover so it's closer to its publication date. Something like this... 

FF #327-333 
DH 9 
SH:C 
A@ 18 
WOSM@ 5 
T@ 14 
FF@ 22 
FF #334-336 

All that said, I just looked at how Russ has it laid out on the MCP, and he has the issue placed just after FF@ 22 but before FF #334. Either way seems to work just as well as far as I'm concerned.

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Posted: 20 Jan 2007 01:01 am    
By Dhall

Thanks, that helps to know that it's listed in the right place. 

Dave H

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Thread 20

Posted: 30 Jun 2006 12:35 am    Post subject: Civil War: let's untangle the chronology...
By JD

Okay, since there is no CW thread yet, I'll just start one... 

At first it looked quite well coordinated, it even seemed all ties-ins would be published in chronological order (yeah, right). But with this week, we see it is not the case. 

- New Avengers #21 is obviously set before Civil War #2 (Cap recruits Falcon). 

- The first story of Civil War: Frontline #2 is a mess : it follows up from the end of Civil War #2 and Amazing Spider-Man #533 (Spider-Man's unmasking and Jonah's reactions), but at the end there is a scene with the beginning of the enforcement of the act (which is similar to what happens at the beginning of Civil War #2). Are the scenes out of order or what ?

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Posted: 30 Jun 2006 12:26 pm    
By jannepie

Does anyone recognize the male hero next to Valkyrie in #1 page 20 panel 1? It's the panel where Spider-Man is in the window and others seem to be upside down. This hero wears a yellow mask.

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Posted: 03 Jul 2006 04:33 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

JD wrote: 
>>>
- The first story of Civil War: Frontline #2 is a mess : it follows up from the end of Civil War #2 and Amazing Spider-Man #533 (Spider-Man's unmasking and Jonah's reactions), but at the end there is a scene with the beginning of the enforcement of the act (which is similar to what happens at the beginning of Civil War #2). Are the scenes out of order or what ? 
<<<

You're right: Civil War #2 has the law going into effect at "midnight", and this is followed up by Spider-Man unmasking a couple days later. 

Civil War: Frontline #2 has Spider-Man unmasking, followed by the law going into effect at Midnight. How to reconcile these two events, I don't know...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 03 Jul 2006 09:26 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
How to reconcile these two events, I don't know... 
<<<

I've grappled with this one myself and think I have a solution. We might want to think of the sequence of events as follows: 

1) Superhuman Registration Act is debated by Congress 
2) Act is passed by both houses of Congress and goes to the president 
3) The president signs the act, making it law, but the law's "effective date" doesn't start just yet 
4) Spidey unmasks 
5) The law takes effect at midnight of a day shortly thereafter and a deadline is set for registration 
6) The registration deadline passes 

I hope to get a detailed timeline posted in the next day or two.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Jul 2006 09:43 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Thus, making the "law taking effect" and the "registration deadline taking effect" two different things? Hmmm...but for that to work in the case of Civil War #2 and CW: Frontline #2, you have to switch around #4 and #5 on your list, I think. 

In CW #2, the "law taking effect" happens at midnight, and Spider-Man unmasks a couple days later. This is followed up by Spider-Man having unmasked at the start of CW:FL #2, and the first story in CW: FL #2 ending with the registration deadline passing. 

Only problem I see with that is that inbetween the "midnight deadline" scene and the "Spidey unmasking" scene in CW #2, we see "24 hours later" the Young Avengers getting arrested for being in violation of the new law. Wouldn't they not get arrested till after the registration deadline passed? 

By the way, could you tell me again which Civil War tie-in's you're getting Paul?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 04 Jul 2006 04:35 am   
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I really think it's simpler just to treat the Iron Man/Prodigy sequence as a flashback. There doesn't seem to be anything obvious in the story to prevent that, and the timeline of the primary CIVIL WAR series ought to take precedence over the fringe books.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 04 Jul 2006 05:56 am    
By JD


Yeah, that's what I thought too. 
Remember also that the editors have already stated that a scene in FRONTLINE #1 had been placed out of order chronologically so as to give the issue a better narrative rythm ; maybe they did the same for #2.

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Posted: 04 Jul 2006 07:32 am    
By Jason Doty

Since the MCP is starting to list page numbers behind the listings is calling something a flashback thats not the best way to go about the problem? I think that would lead to more confusion and people start debating what a flashback is. Also arn't the CW: FL issues seperate stories.

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Posted: 04 Jul 2006 08:07 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Thus, making the "law taking effect" and the "registration deadline taking effect" two different things? Hmmm...but for that to work in the case of Civil War #2 and CW: Frontline #2, you have to switch around #4 and #5 on your list, I think.  
<<<

Oops. Yes, you're right. I did mean to list it in the order you suggest. 


Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Only problem I see with that is that inbetween the "midnight deadline" scene and the "Spidey unmasking" scene in CW #2, we see "24 hours later" the Young Avengers getting arrested for being in violation of the new law. Wouldn't they not get arrested till after the registration deadline passed?  
<<<

Yup, right again. I overlooked that Young Avengers arrest, which should happen after the end of ASM 533, since that's the point at which Stark declares that violators will be arrested; no more giving them the option of just leaving like he did with Prodigy. 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
I really think it's simpler just to treat the Iron Man/Prodigy sequence as a flashback.  
<<<

I thought of that, but really hesitated to do that. (I was actually looking for evidence that the Iron Man/Prodigy sequence was the second story in CW:FL 2, separate from what went before!). But now with Kevin's reminder of the Young Avengers arrest, I'm going to try to reorganize scenes with the Iron Man/Prodigy sequence as a flashback and see how the big picture falls in line. 

At least now I may not have to insert a gap between panels 1 and 2 of ASM 533 to accommodate the first several pages of CW:FL 2. But I really dislike disjointed storytelling with no indication that events are not being recounted in chronological order. Really...  "Narrative rhythm" my Aunt Petunia.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 04 Jul 2006 11:11 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

New thought: Maybe the Young Avengers were getting rounded up because they are teenagers, and the new law specifically forbids teens from crimefighting, (the law was written with the New Warriors in mind, as they were supposed to be a bunch of rookies, according to the story...even though the New Warriors have been around since 1990...  ) 

Thus, we have the new law taking effect, outlawing illegal crimefighting, (ESPECIALLY teenage crimefighting). This is followed by the Young Avengers getting arrested and Spider-Man unmasking. Later on, a Registration Deadline, (as spelled out in the new law) passes, and we have the scene with Prodigy/Iron Man...from there, we have the scene in ASM 533 with Tony Stark declaring that the registration deadline has passed, and he will hunt down all heroes who have refused to register by this point. 

Quote: 
>>>
Remember also that the editors have already stated that a scene in FRONTLINE #1 had been placed out of order chronologically so as to give the issue a better narrative rythm ; maybe they did the same for #2. 
<<<

Where did you hear this? What scene is out of order in CW: FL #1? 


Quote: 
>>>
Since the MCP is starting to list page numbers behind the listings is calling something a flashback thats not the best way to go about the problem? 
<<<

I have to agree with Jason here: calling something a flashback that's clearly not presented as a flashback is a dangerous trend.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 04 Jul 2006 11:21 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Also, going back to the first post in this thread: 

JD wrote: 
>>>
- New Avengers #21 is obviously set before Civil War #2 (Cap recruits Falcon). 
<<<
 


New Avengers #21 probably occurs shortly after Civil War #1, (before the new law takes effect in CW #2 and before the registration deadline passes in CW:FL #2). Of course, with that being the case, you have to come up with some sort of rationalization as to why Cap. America's being chased if the law isn't in effect yet. The answer, I believe, is that Cap. America is now considered a rogue SHIELD agent, and thus he is being hunted down by SHIELD, even though the new law isn't in effect yet. 


The order for Captain America's appearances would go thus: 

CW #1: (he escapes from the Helicarrier) 
NA #21: Cap and the Falcon team up, and start up the resistance. 
She-Hulk #8: Cap America speaks to John Jameson 
CW #2: Cap. America and the Falcon free the Young Avengers 

...am I missing anything?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 04 Jul 2006 11:37 am    
By  JD

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Where did you hear this? What scene is out of order in CW: FL #1? 
<<<

Tom Brevoort's blog : 
http://marvel.com/blogs/Tom%20Brevoort/entry/183 

"And in certain instances, I may even opt to swap pages and sequences around in a given story, so that the sequence of events makes more sense. The most recent time I did this was in CIVIL WAR FRONT LINE #1--I'd expect that people could suss out which pages were re-ordered now that you've been made aware of it, but I'd also be willing to bet that no reades noticed the switch, because the sequence flows better in the current configuration."

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Posted: 04 Jul 2006 12:41 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Okay, but that's what Tom Brevoort, an official Marvel Editor did: they actually reordered the pages. If Tom Brevoort did that to Issue #1, then if he had wanted Issue #2 to be reordered, wouldn't he have done it there as well? In other words: It's far better for Marvel to reorder pages then it is for us to declare certain pages out of sequence. 

But again, since Tom didn't spell it out: Does anyone know which pages were reordered in CW:FL #1?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 04 Jul 2006 04:39 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
In other words: It's far better for Marvel to reorder pages then it is for us to declare certain pages out of sequence. 
<<<

In theory, yes, but if the story simply can't work as published - and it can't, without drawing artificial distinctions that plainly weren't intended by any of the writers involved - then we have to come up with a solution. And the "unlabelled flashback" is minimally damaging to the integrity of the story.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 05 Jul 2006 12:01 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

I would submit that an "unlabelled flashback" is more damaging to the integrity of the story than simply reinterpretting the meaning of a couple of scenes happening at "midnight". One involves the rearranging of pages, the other involves just declaring that two different scenes mean two different things, (one is a "law" deadline, the other is a "registration" deadline). 

But that's just me...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:11 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

But both scenes are plainly written on the assumption that the law has just come into force. The sequence is really immaterial; the plot content is vital.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:59 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

I guess the thing is that I don't see the change in interpretation as being harmful to the plot content: Several laws in real life are implemented in different phases, at different times. Just as an example from recent U.S. news, I believe there's a law being debated that calls for the U.S. borders to be sealed, and after that is implemented, the law then calls for measures to be enacted against those who are already here in this country illegally. 

I don't believe it to be too far of a stretch to say one "midnight" deadline is for one thing, another "midnight" deadline is for another thing, especially when one has Spider-Man unmasking before, and the other has him unmasking after.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:24 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, here's my current recap (it changes almost daily) of Civil War to date. I haven't had a chance to double-check everything, but I thought I'd go with the theory of an out-of-order CW:FL 2 here (much as I hate to do this). I put calendar dates here as a way to track the passage of time, but they may change. Although...wouldn't it be ironic for an upcoming installment to occur on Independence Day? That would be a nice touch... 

POSSIBLE SPOILERS BELOW............ 






Monday, June 13 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (1-6) 
One morning. Logan fights the Crusader and his flunkies aboard a federal treasury plane they hijacked. Logan brings the plane down in a crash landing. He wakes up three hours later and gets directions to the nearest bar from an FAA body-hauler. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (1-7p1) 
The same school day as W3 42 (1-6). This segment must occur after THING2 8 and probably occurs a couple of days before CW 1 (13-17). According to CW:OS, this segment occurs months after H3 92 (1p4-1p6). This segment occurs after IHM:MI 1 (5-10) and after Novas departure from the New Warriors in A:N 1. It occurs before the flashbacks in S-H4 8 and two weeks before W3 43. Three months after breaking out of Rykers, Cobalt Man, Coldheart, Speedfreek, and Nitro are staked out at a house in Stamford by the New Warriors, who are filming an episode for the second season of their reality TV show. Despite the fact that theyre outmatched, the Warriors attack for the sake of ratings. In the fracas Nitro prepares to explode. Green grass and trees in Connecticut. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1  FB (2p2-2p4) 
The same day as CW 1 (1-7). Cameraman John Fernandez stands before Nitro as he explodes. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (7p2-7p4) 
The same day as CW:FL 1-FB (2p2-2p4). This segment occurs two weeks before TB 103 (1p1). Nitros explosion killing and wounding an estimated 800-900 people, including schoolchildren. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1/2  FB (8p6) 
The same day as CW 1 (7p2-7p4). Speedball absorbs the brunt of the explosion and is blown into the sky. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1  FB (2p5) 
The same day as CW:FL 1/2-FB (8p6). It is probably a few days before CW:FL 1 (1-5). John Fernandez lay dead. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532  FB (2-3) 
The same day as CW:FL 1/2. While flying in a plane, Tony and Peter find out about the Stamford disaster. 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (7-11p1) 
The same day as ASM 532-FB (2-3). This segment probably occurs after FFS 1. As Logan orders beer at the bar, he gets an alert on his Avengers pager and sees TV news coverage of the Stamford explosion. In Latveria, Doom views a tape of the Warriors fight and takes an interest in Nitro. Logan shows up in Stamford and helps in the rescue/recovery effort. Green trees in Latveria. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (8-9) 
The same day as W3 42 (7-11). The Avengers (Cap, Cage, Iron Man, Spider-Woman, Logan, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, Falcon w/goatee), Goliath (Foster), the FF, and the X-Men (Scott, Rachel, Colossus, Iceman) help the authorities search for survivors in Stamford. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (10p1) ~ WOLVERINE v3 #42 (11p2) 
The same day as CW 1 (8-9). Iron Man tells Cap the authorities have a lead on Nitro. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (10p2-11p2) 
The same day as CW 1 (10p1). Iron Man discusses the New Warriors bad judgment with Cap. Rachel levitates some debris. 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (11p3) 
The same day as CW 1 (10-11). Logan dwells on scapegoats for the tragedy. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (11p3-11p5) 
The same day as W3 42 (11p3). Logan notices that the Sentinels have arrived. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (12p1-12p2) ~ WOLVERINE v3 #42 (11p4) 
The same day as CW 1 (11p3-11p5). Logan remarks about the Sentinels presence and Lex notes that theyre just doing their job. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (12p3-12p5) 
The same day as CW 1 (12p1-12p2). As they work, the heroes discuss the repercussions of the tragedy. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532  FB (4-5) 
The same day as CW 1 (12p3-12p5). Two hours after ASM 532-FB (2-3), after all the bodies have been retrieved from the rubble, Spidey notices that onlookers are staring at the heroes with hatred. The president arrives by helicopter. 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (12) 
The same day as W3 42 (11p4). It is days before W3 42 (13-15) and W3 42 (17-19). A suburban couple is summoned by the Operations Directorate. It is not a Thursday. Green grass and trees in New York. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532  FB (6-12) 
The same day as W3 42 (12). Three hours after ASM 532-FB (4-5), Peter accompanies Stark to the White House, where Tony meets with the president and tells him that he is Iron Man. After the meeting, Tony explains the new reality of superhuman registration to Peter and asks him to consider revealing his secret identity to comply with the Registration Act, which the president is expected to sign very soon (so soon that Tony stays in DC to meet with the president again after he signs the act, but these plans may change). Peter flies back to New York in a Stark jet. Green grass and trees in Washington, DC. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1/2 (1-6) 
The same night as CW:FL 1-FB (2p5). Two guys discover Speedball barely conscious in a wheat field in upstate New York. The energy absorbed by Speedball is released, killing the two guys. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #531 (21-22) 
The same night as ASM 532-FB (6-12). This segment must occur before XF3 8. As M.J. showers in Avengers Tower (no Watchtower spires), Peter (after a stressful day) watches a TV news report about the tragedy in Stamford. A sports report on the TV indicates that its Major League Baseball season. Full moon. 

Tuesday, June 14 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1/2 (7-11) 
The day after CW:FL 1/2 (1-6). It is long enough before CW:FL 2/2 for Robbie to recover and regrow some of his hair. A powerless Speedball comes to in a SHIELD medical facility and is arrested. 

Wednesday, June 15 
SHE-HULK v4 #8  FB (8p4) 
One day, after CW 1 (12p3-12p5). In the wake of the Stamford tragedy, Hindsight Lad has started his hate site Destroy All Warriors and sets up a fake attack on his property. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (13-17) 
One day, shortly after CW 1 (12p3-12p5). This segment must occur before ASM 532 (20-22) and FF 538-FB. Larry King interviews She-Hulk about a proposed ban on super-heroes. At a memorial service for the Stamford victims, Miriam Sharpe, the mother of a boy who was killed, spits at Tony Stark and blames him for the recklessness of vigilante super-heroes. Present are J. Jonah Jameson and photographer Peter Parker. Perhaps that night, Johnny Storm goes clubbing and is beaten into a coma by a throng of people who blame him for the Stamford tragedy. Green trees in Connecticut and light clothing in New York. 
WOLVERINE v2 #42 (13-15) 
One night, days after W3 42 (13). With hatred and fear of superhumans mounting, Logan is asked to leave a Japanese restaurant in New York and confronts a hostile group outside. 

Thursday, June 16 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1 (1-5) 
One rainy day, probably a few days after CW:FL 1-FB (2p5). The staff of the Daily Bugle attend John Fernandezs funeral, then retire to a bar to discuss the Stamford tragedy, the Superhuman Registration Act, and Jonahs reaction to it. Green grass and trees in New York. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (18-19p4) 
The day after CW 1 (13-17). This segment occurs before S-H4 8 (1-10) and probably before TB 102-FB (1-2). It is two weeks before the superhuman registration proposal goes to a vote in Congress, but it appears that Congress acts on the proposal more quickly; the swift response is noted in CW 1 (32-33). With Johnny in the hospital, 23 (I count 24-25) super-heroes  Reed, Sue, Ben, Strange, Iron Man, Cage, Wasp, Yellowjacket, Falcon, Nighthawk (with the thick forehead stripe seen in THING2 1-3), Spidey, Spider-Woman, Scott, Logan, Hercules, She-Hulk, Valkyrie, Patriot, Hulking, Kate, Cassie, the new Daredevil, Felicia, Rachel  gather at the Baxter Building to debate about superhuman registration and the group is dividing into two camps. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (19p5-19p6) ~ WOLVERINE v3 #42 (16p1-16p3) 
The same evening as CW 1 (18-19). At 6:36 PM, Falcon objects to the infringement of superhuman rights, but Yellowjacket remarks that superhumans are lucky to have been tolerated for as long as they have. Logan remarks that masks are necessary in a hostile world, and the Thing inquires whether Johnny would have ended up in the hospital last night if some superhumans werent giving everyone a bad name. 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (16p4) 
The same evening as CW 1 (19p5-19p6). Someone answers, I dont know. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (20) 
The same evening as W3 42 (16p4). Spidey expresses concern for the safety of loved ones if superhumans identities were outed. Nighthawk wonders if theyre being paranoid, but the new Daredevil remarks that this is the end of the way heroes do business. 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (17-19) 
The same evening as CW 1 (20). It is days after CW 1 (13). Iron Man tells Logan that SHIELD is withholding intel about Nitro and Logan is itching to get him. Logan and Cage have a discussion about registration and civil liberties. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (21-28) 
The same evening as W3 42 (17-19). In a helicarrier above New York, Cap meets with Maria Hill and warns her that the issue of registration will result in war between factions of the super-hero community. When Hill suggests that Cap and the Avengers suppress the objectors, Cap rebels and Hill orders SHIELD to attack Cap. Cap plows through the SHIELD agents and runs. 
NEW AVENGERS #21  FB (1p3) 
The same evening as CW 1 (21-31). SHIELD agents fire at Cap as he runs on the helicarrier deck. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (29-31) 
The same evening as A4 21-FB (1p3). This segment occurs before A4 21 and probably before ASM 532 (18-19) and TB 102-FB (1-2). Cap escapes from the helicarrier. After this, he becomes a fugitive. The Watcher shows up at the Baxter Building to observe. 

Friday, June 17 
SHE-HULK v4 #8  FB (8p5) 
One day. Debriis identity is outed by the New Warriors hate site and her car is torched. 

Saturday, June 18 
SHE-HULK v4 #8  FB (8p6) 
One day. Timeslips identity is outed by the New Warriors hate site and she flees from a mob. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1 (6-13) 
One day, shortly after CW:FL 1 (1-5). This segment occurs after GENM 5 (24) and the year after GENM 5-FB (8-9). Ben Urich and Robbie Robertson discuss the Bugles handling of the Stamford tragedy. Ben is assigned to cover the Iron Man press conference tomorrow morning. That night, Spider-Man (in version 2.0 of his Iron Spider costume) visits Sally Floyd at her apartment. Spidey talks about the pressure for him to reveal his identity and the consequences. He tells her to go to Iron Mans press conference tomorrow. A reference to Friday as an upcoming day indicates that its neither Friday nor likely Thursday. 

Sunday, June 19 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1 (14-18) 
The morning after CW:FL 1 (6-13). This segment must occur before CW 2 (3p1), in which a newspaper headline announces that Congress has passed the Registration Act. Iron Man conducts his press conference about the proposed Super Hero Registration Act currently making the rounds of Congress, whose acceleration has been the subject of much speculation in recent weeks. Iron Man removes his helmet to reveal himself as Tony Stark. 
NEW AVENGERS #21 (1-9) 
One day. In a hideaway, Steve Rogers tries to draw, but hes so lost in thought about recent events that he fails to detect a SHIELD squad that has snuck up on him with new capekilling tech designed by Stark. He defeats the SHIELD team and encounters Dum Dum, who allows Cap to escape. Cap heads for an old secret bunker of Nick Furys in the Manhattan sewers. 
THUNDERBOLTS #102  FB (1-2) 
One day, three days before TB 102. This flashback probably occurs after CW 1 (29-31). Nighthawk joins the Squadron Sinister, now renamed Supreme Power, and the Grandmaster to find the Wellspring of Power that spawned the Squadrons abilities. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1/3 
One night, probably after CW:FL 1 (6-13). Spidey (in the Iron Spidey costume) swings around New York, thinking about Japanese internment during World War II as he ponders the decision he must make about registering and revealing his identity. 

Monday, June 20 
NEW AVENGERS #21 (10-21) 
Perhaps the day after A4 21 (1-9). This segment must occur before S-H4 8 (11-16) and BP4 17 (1-14). Cap awakens in Furys secret bunker when Falcon shows up looking for him. Cap verifies Sams identity and asks him if he registered (which doesnt necessarily mean that mandatory registration is law yet). Cap swears to fight back and Sam agrees to help him put a resistance team together. They write off Spider-Man (in version 2.0 of the Iron Spider costume) as a Stark ally, then, in Caps first public appearance since going AWOL, they defeat the Shocker who was in a standoff with police at a federal courthouse. The TV news reports the incident and notes an emergency Congressional session to debate legality of role of super heroes in government. Cap and Sam try to enlist Hank Pym, who tells them hes on Starks side. Pym turns giant and tries to prevent the duo from leaving to give a SHIELD team time to arrive. Cap injures Pyms nose and he and Sam escape Anita Hill and the SHIELD team. Sam asks Cap, Whos next? Avengers Tower has the Watchtower spires. 
SHE-HULK v4 #8 (1-10) 
One day, after CW 1 (18-31). This segment probably occurs after IHM:MI 1/2 (6-11). John Jameson test pilots an Extreme Vertical Assault (EVA) craft for the military, who plan to use it against super-humans who oppose the Superhuman Registration Act, which is expected to pass. Jennifer sees Doc Samson and Dr. Strange at Stranges Sanctum Sanctorum. Strange lifts Wandas old spell from Jennifer, which cures her of her difficulty in changing into She-Hulk. At GLK&H headquarters, Justice and Rage (both back in their old Avengers costumes) asks for Jennifers help in shutting down a hate site on the web that is revealing the secret identities of the remaining New Warriors. She agrees, and that night John Jameson talks to her about her different stances as She-Hulk (pro-registration) and Jennifer Walters (anti-registration). 

Tuesday, June 21: Summer Solstice 
SHE-HULK v4 #8 (11-16) 
The day after S-H4 8 (1-10), since John refers to his test flight as having occurred yesterday; apparently it took no time for the New Warriors case against the hate site to go to court. This segment must occur before W3 43. On day one of the court case, Stamford survivors tell their stories and an outburst by Rage gets him and Justice removed from the courtroom. Meanwhile, John has a clandestine meeting with Cap in a bookstore basement. Cap asks John if hell ask She-Hulk to fight on his side if the Registration Act is enacted. John refuses and talks about his feelings for Jen. Steve encourages John to do something about it. 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #17 (1-14) 
One day. This story must occur after A4 21 (10-21), given that Cap is a fugitive and is in touch with Sam, although Sam isnt apprehended here for being an accomplice of Caps. TChalla and Ororo hold a press conference in Manhattan. Logan and TShan go along with Cages plans to give TChalla a bachelor party, but TChalla rejects the idea. Storm goes shopping with Kitty Pryde and Sue Richards and discovers that someones been passing herself off as TChallas bride. Back at the Wakandan Embassy, TChalla and Ororo have a romp and the Falcon (depicted with a red, not a yellow, beank symbol on his mask) relays a message from the indisposed Cap concerning the Bradleys. Sam is determined to get Cap to the wedding despite what the state department says. Meanwhile in Africa, Man-Ape goes ape over the wedding. Avengers Tower does not have the Watchtower spires. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #538  FB 
One night. This flashback must occur after CW 1 (13-17). Word gets out about Thors hammer in Oklahoma and guys line up to get a shot at lifting it. 

Wednesday, June 22 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #17 (15) 
The morning after BP4 17 (1-14). Storm tells TChalla that shes going out with the girls on Friday night and suggests that he go to the bachelor party his friends are planning for that night. 
SHE-HULK v4 #8 (17-22) 
The day after S-H4 8 (11-16). On day two of the court case, the defense calls Iron Man to the stand and Jen brings up Starks past sins concerning his Iron Man secrets. Afterward, Iron Man gives She-Hulk data on the identity and location of the hate sites creator. She-Hulk, Justice, Rage, Slapstick, Ultragirl, and Firestar confront Hindsight Lad, who explains his actions. The heroes are approached by an angry mob, which is dispersed when an EVA craft lands. Inside is John Jameson, who proposes marriage to Jen. Green grass and leafy trees. 
THUNDERBOLTS #102 
One day, three days after TB 102-FB (1-2). This story probably occurs before Congress passes the Registration Act, as noted in CW 1 (32-33). As Joystick secretly observes, Speed Demon fights ninja monks in Tokyo who have been tapping power from the Wellspring. Speed Demon leaves after the monks spit out their power, then Joystick emerges and beats info about the Wellspring out of one of the ninjas. She teleports to the Fixers lab in New York, where Zemo has a teleconference with Gyrich and Dallas. Zemo notes the recent aggressive stances taken by your government towards the superhuman community and Abner predicts that if they really go through with the registration act, itll split the super hero community in half. As Joystick reports to Zemo, Supreme Power convene and discuss the Wellspring of Power, then teleport away to find access points to the Wellspring as Joystick appears at their Manhattan apartment. Grandmaster sees her as Fixer teleports Joystick to Istanbul. There, she beats on more monks whose released powers she records on a device created by Fixer. Speed Demon shows up and fights Joystick, who breaks his legs and collects his power. Back in New York, Zemo congratulates Joystick, who is double-dealing with the Grandmaster. 

Thursday, June 23 
CIVIL WAR #1 (32-33) 
One day, probably after TB 102. Rallying around Miriam Sharpe, protesters demand superhuman registration at the White House, where the Cabinet notes Congress swift response and Caps going underground and becoming a figurehead for opponents to registration. Present are Iron Man, Reed Richards, and Yellowjacket, who plan to deal with Cap. Green trees in DC. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (1-2) 
One night. SHIELD picks up a chained-up Vulture, Grim Reaper, and Trapster  the latest in a string of fifteen super-villains apprehended by Captain America. inside of seventy-two hours. Maria Hill suspects that Cap now has allies. 

Friday, June 24 
CIVIL WAR #2 (3p1) 
One day. Newspapers report: Registration Act Passed by Congress, President Promises Swift Action, Captain America Goes into Hiding, and Tony Stark Now Backing Super Hero Reform,  the last an apparent reference to the press conference of CW:FL (14-18). This may be a collection of recent papers that dont necessarily share the same date. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (3p2) 
Perhaps the same day as CW 2 (3p1). It is seven days before CW 2 (8p4). The press interview a government official about Caps stance. She states that theres seven days before the act becomes law (this may be a reference to the proposed registration deadline date, not the date the president is expected to sign the Act into law). 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #17 (16-22) 
The Friday night after BP4 17 (15). Cage, Logan, Sam, Namor, TShan, and Ben Grimm take TChalla to Rio in an Avengers quinjet for a bachelor party at a strip club, but when the ladies come on to TChalla, he leaves. While out on the town with Sue and Kitty, Ororo encounters her imitator, Princess Zanda. Ororo decks her. She and TChalla meet back up at the Wakandan Embassy, ready to get married. 

Saturday, June 25 
[Presumably TChallas and Ororos wedding day] 

Sunday, June 26 
X-FACTOR v3 #8 
One day. This story occurs after ASM 531 (21-22). XF3 7-FB is referred to as having occurred the other day, but it may have been some time since Scotts visit. X-Factor wonders about Scotts seeming to know Layla and the X-Mens warning about Pietro possibly showing up. Siryn reads the Bugle and talks about Jonahs editorials in favor of the Super Hero Registration Act, an indication that this story occurs before CW:FL 2/2, set on the day the president signs the act into law. Jamie believes the X-Men know something about the Decimation. A duplicate of Jamies, a SHIELD agent for some time, drops by to register X-Factor. Jamies friend Malcom Modern states that the DNA samples from the Tryps are identical. Spider-Man (in version 2.0 of his Iron Spider costume) nabs a crook, then he talks to Siryn about the Registration Act. Spidey mentions the Stamford incident. Siryn entrances Spidey into spilling the beans about the Decimation and Theresa is convinced the X-Men have been covering it up. Rictor and M register, and Layla encounters some unfortunate mutants to whom Pietro has restored their power. As X-Factor converge back on their headquarters, Pietro arrives. 

Monday, June 27 
[BTS] 
One day, four days before W3 43. Nitro leaves the East Coast in a pick-up bound for California. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/2 
One day, probably after XF3 8. It is long enough after CW:FL 1/2 for Robbie to recover and grow back some hair. A government lawyer visits Robbie Baldwin at an undisclosed location where Robbie has been for more than three days. The lawyer tells him that the Superhuman Registration Act  which passed in both Congress [meaning the House] and the Senate three days ago  was signed into law today by the president. (The law likely includes a deadline for registration that may be shortly after this.) The lawyer gives Robbie one chance to avoid punishment for Stamford by registering and agreeing to work for SHIELD in subduing unregistered super-humans. Robbie refuses because he insists he did nothing wrong. He is beaten and taken to a maximum security penitentiary, where he is handed over to the mercy of other prisoners who know his identity. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (1) 
One night. Peter asks M.J.s and Mays help in deciding what to do regarding revealing his identity. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (13-17) 
The same night as ASM 532 (1). It is four days, before ASM 532 (18-19). M.J. and May express their feelings and urge Peter to reveal his identity. 

Tuesday, June 28 

Wednesday, June 29 
CIVIL WAR #2 (3p3-4) 
One day. Yellowjacket, Mr. Fantastic, Iron Man, Doc Samson, Warbird, Tigra, and She-Hulk (who is not wearing her gamma charger) defeat a Doombot in New York City and discuss registration. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (5-6) 
One night. At the Baxter Building, Sue checks in on Reed before going to visit Johnny in the hospital. Reed, excited about Starks plans for super-humans, does not divulge the contents of a CD labeled 42. 

Thursday, June 30 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (20-22) 
One day. Logan notes that hes been an Avenger for a couplea months now, but it must be more than a couplea months after A4 6. Over the objections of Scott and Emma, Logan leaves the Xavier Institute (managing to evade the Sentinels there) and heads to Stamford on a quest for Nitro. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (7-8p3) 
One day. Spidey (in his Iron Spider costume) swings past the Daily Bugle as Jonah and Robbie talk about the fact that the Superhuman Registration Act becomes law at midnight tonight. Robbie mentions a huge press conference Tony Stark is holding tomorrow morning. Stark and Happy anticipate the enactment of the law in twenty minutes. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (8) 
Perhaps the same rainy night as CW:FL 2 (6-7). Carrying a bottle of booze, the Slingers Prodigy declares from a rooftop at 11:59 PM, in one minute Ill be a bad guy cause some politician says theres a deadline. Among the crowd below are Ben Urich and Sally Floyd. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (1p5, 1p7, 2p2, 2p4, 2p6, 3p2, 3p4, 3p6) 
The same rainy night as CW:FL 2 (8). As Prodigy continues to rant, Iron Man heads toward the scene. 

Friday, July 1 
CIVIL WAR #2 (8p4) 
Early the morning after CW 2 (7-8). It is seven days after CW 2 (3p2) and 24 hours before CW 2 (9-18). This segment must occur before FF 538. At midnight, the Superhuman Registration Act becomes law (meaning that its the first day to which the law applies, and heroes have until a specified deadline after this to register). 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (9p1) 
The rainy early morning after CW:FL 2/4-FB (3p6) and the same early morning as CW 2 (8p4). Probably right at midnight, Iron Man approaches Prodigy, who defies him. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (9p2) ~ CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (4p2) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (9p1). Iron Man tells Prodigy that he is an unregistered combatant and has ten seconds to leave. Note that Shellhead does not arrest Prodigy right off the bat but gives him the option to leave. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (9p3-11) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (9p2). Iron Man tries to convince Prodigy to register, but Prodigy calls him a traitor and attacks. The two heroes battle in the sky as Urich and Sally watch. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (4p4) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (9-11). Iron Man and Prodigy struggle. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (12) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2/4-FB (4p4). Sally voices her defense of Prodigy and Iron Man blasts the Slinger. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (4p6, 5p2) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (12). Prodigy lands unconscious on a rooftop. The authorities arrive and douse Prodigy in foam. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (13p1-13p2) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2/4-FB (5p2). At 12:05 AM, Prodigy continues to be doused and Sally voices her dissent. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (5p4, 5p6) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (13p1-13p2). The authorities carry Prodigy away as Iron Man looks on. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (13p3-14) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2/4-FB (5p6). This segment must occur before ASM 533 (17-23). The authorities load Prodigy into a helicopter and Iron Man flies away. Sally yells at Iron Man and the retreating airborne troops and at 12:15 AM, Urich finds himself wondering about the price of the registration law. 
WOLVERINE v3 #43 
One day, two weeks after CW 1 (1-7). This story occurs before CW 2 (3p1), three days before CW:FL 2/2, probably before XF3 8, and must occur after S-H4 8 (11-16). Logan notes at 12:05 AM PST (3:05 AM EST) that what he does is illegal as of five minutes ago. It is four days after Nitro left the East Coast for California, where Logan has arrived in pursuit. A newspaper in this issue reports that the Superhuman Registration Act passes  this must be an old paper. In a bar in Stockton, he discovers that Nitro has headed to Big Sur. Iron Man catches up to Logan and warns him not to go on this vendetta. Tony has a strike team ready to get Nitro in Big Sur and Logan joins the team. The team flubs their raid and Nitro blows them up, incinerating Logan in the process. Nitro reports to a mystery boss in Washington while Janus and company are on Logans trail. As Nitro prepares to leave the scene, hes attacked by a healed Logan. Green trees in California. It is not a Wednesday. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (18-19) 
One morning. It is four days, after ASM 532 (13-17). This segment probably occurs after CW 1 (29-31). Peter prepares to leave Avengers Tower (no Watchtower spires) for Washington and has second thoughts about revealing his identity. He thinks about being a fugitive but May reminds him about power and responsibility. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4 
Probably the same day as CW:FL 2 (13-14). Ben Urich writes about the Iron Man/Prodigy incident in terms of the tale of Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon and igniting civil war. 

Saturday, July 2 
CIVIL WAR #2 (9-17/18p5) 
The morning of the day (24 hours) after CW 2 (8p4). SHIELD catches the unregistered Patriot trying to break up a mugging and captures the rest of the Young Avengers. Cap and the Falcon hijack the SHIELD transport holding the young heroes and have Wiccan teleport the vehicle to a top-secret SHIELD safe house, where Cap and his resistance movement (including Cage, the new Daredevil, Cable, Cloak, Dagger, and Hercules) have set up a headquarters for the Resistance, thanks to the underground Nick Fury. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (20) 
The same morning as CW 2 (9-18) and the morning after ASM 532 (18-19). As Tony Stark prepares for another press conference, he is joined by Peter Parker, who vows to stand by him. Green trees in Washington, DC. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (17/18p6) 
The same morning as ASM 532 (20). Dagger calls the Resistances attention to a TV on which Stark appears. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (21p1-21p2) ~ CIVIL WAR #2 (19p1) 
The same morning as CW 2 (9-18). Stark begins the press conference and introduces Miriam Sharpe. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (19p2) 
The same morning as CW 2 (9p1). Scott, Emma, Beast, Colossus, and Logan watch the press conference at the Xavier Institute. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (21p3-21p4) 
The same morning as CW 2 (19p2). Spidey, in his classic costume, prepares to go out and join Stark at the press conference. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (19p3-19p4) 
The same morning as ASM 532 (21p3-21p4). Stark introduces Spidey. Sue Richards watches the press conference from the hospital room where Johnny lies in a coma. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (22) 
The same morning as CW 2 (19p3-19p4). Spidey steps up to the podium and says he has an announcement to make. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (20p1-20p4) 
The same morning as ASM 532 (22). Spidey makes a speech and Aunt May, M.J., the Daily Bugle staff, Wasp, Thing, She-Hulk, and Yellowjacket watch him on TV. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (20p5-21p1) ~ THUNDERBOLTS #103 (1p1) ~ AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (1) ~ CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/3  FB (1p1) 
The same morning as CW 2 (20p1-20p4). It is two weeks after CW 1 (7p2-7p4). Spidey unmasks himself and reveals that he is Peter Parker. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (21p2-22) ~ CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/3  FB (1p1) 
The same morning as CW 2 (20-21). Jonah faints and Spidey asks the press if they have any questions. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/3  FB (1p2-2p3, 2p5-3p3) 
The same morning as CW 2 (21-22). Spidey answers reporters questions. 
THUNDERBOLTS #103 (1p2-6p3) 
The same morning as CW:FL 2/3-FB (2-3). It is years after ASM 90 and months after A/TB 2. The Thunderbolts battle and defeat Quicksand in Denver. They catch a televised broadcast of the reporters questions for Spidey. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (2-11) 
The same morning as TB 103 (1-6). This segment must occur before FF 538. Jonah (now vertical) and Robbie catch the remainder of Spideys press conference. Jonah vows to make Peter pay for duping him all these years. After the conference, Peter ralphs and tells Stark hed better not regret revealing his identity. As Peter leaves Washington amid protesters, M.J., Aunt May, and Reed Richards call to congratulate him. Sue Richards shows her concern and she and Reed end up sniping. 
THUNDERBOLTS #103 (6p4-21) 
It must be the same day as ASM 533 (2-11). This segment must occur after IHM:OL 1 (15-20) and before ASM 533 (2-23). The CSA invites the Thunderbolts to Washington, where Iron Man, Yellowjacket, and Mr. Fantastic tell the group that they want the Thunderbolts to hunt down super-villains and recruit them to the cause of registration. Eight hours later, the Thunderbolts battle and defeat a trio of college kids whove stolen old Beetle armors in New Jersey. Back at their headquarters, Zemo toasts his team, and he and Melissa check in on the detention quadrant that holds a growing army of renegade villains they already started to capture three weeks ago. These villains include Batroc, Zaran, Boomerang, the U-Foes, the Wrecking Crew, Folding Circle, Quicksand, Pretty Persuasions, Mimic, Scarecrow, and the de-powered Blob. Green grass and trees in New Jersey. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (12-17p1) 
It must be the same night as TB 103 (6-21). Peter is flown back to New York, and when he arrives, hes given notice that the Bugle is suing him for $5 million. TV coverage of Spideys revelation from this morning is seen by Flash Thompson, Eddie Brock, Doc Ock, Vulture, and a host of others. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (17p2-23) 
The same night as ASM 533 (12-17). This segment must occur before FF 538. Since this segment occurs after the registration deadline shown in CW 2 (13-14), then it cannot be the same night as ASM 533 (12-17); Spidey notes that this day started with Stark and is now ending with Stark, but the start of the day must be an unpublished scene, not the identity disclosure scene. At Avengers Tower, Spidey, M.J., and May watch a televised press conference in which Stark announces that the deadline for registration has come and gone. Starting this time tomorrow, anyone on this list [of 137 heroes whose identities he knows] who has not come forward to register, or who gives aid and comfort to those who refuse  will be hunted down, arrested and imprisoned, without exception. Stark says that Spider-Man is on his strike team, much to Peters surprise. As Peter and M.J. go out for air, a Cap supporter attempts to shoot Peter, but Peter webs him. Iron Man arrives and Spidey gives him crap until Stark apologizes. Iron Man then leads Spidey into a meeting of the pro-registration heroes, including the active FF, the Thunderbolts, She-Hulk, Doc Samson, Ms. Marvel, Yellowjacket, and Wasp. 

Sunday, July 3 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (1-5) 
The early morning after ASM 533 (12-23). The first seven pages of CW:FL 2 must occur after the rest of the story. The Daily Bugles headline covers Spideys revelation with the headline, Youre Fired. Ben Urich is hounded by the press as he leaves the Bugle offices, then he encounters Peter in an elevator. Sally Floyd meets Firestar in a bar, and Firestar tells her she quits because of the Registration Act. It is a weekday, since Letterman is on TV. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (6-7) 
The same day as CW:FL 2 (1-5). Robbie tells Jonah that Urich encountered Spidey last night and relays a message from Peter that he quits, backdated to before Jonah fired him. Jonah argues with Robbie and calls Peter a betrayer. The front page headline of the Daily Bugle reads, Spiderman  Parker. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/3 
One day, shortly after CW:FL 2/3-FB (2-3). In prison, agents show Norman Osborn a tape of Spideys unmasking and Osborn gets angry, saying he broke the rules. An agent asks Osborn if hes prepared to play by a new set of rules. 

Monday, July 4: Independence Day 

Tuesday, July 5 
FANTASTIC FOUR #538 
One day. This story must occur after FOUR 30, CW 2 (8p4), and ASM 533 (17-23). The FF visit the comatose Johnny in the hospital. There, Reed and Sue get into an argument about Reeds helping Stark round up heroes. Ben keeps vigil over Johnny, then Sue returns and talks to him about her feelings about registration. Ben sees a live TV news report about a battle on Yancy Street between pro- and anti-registration heroes. Ben rushes there and sees Ms. Marvel fighting Silverclaw. Carol asks for Bens help in apprehending Silverclaw, but Ben walks away. Ben then talks to Yancy Streeters who protest the Registration Act. They tell him that he has to choose sides. Meanwhile, the Mad Thinker and the Puppet Master plan to hit a security van carrying heroes to prison tomorrow at ten. In Oklahoma, Don Blake arrives, grabs Thors hammer, and flies off with it. Green trees in New York. Waning crescent moon.
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:20 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
By the way, could you tell me again which Civil War tie-in's you're getting Paul? 
<<<

Sorry for not responding to this earlier. I plan to get all the tie-ins except for Punisher War Journal v2 #1-3. I really am enjoying Civil War, despite the annoying continuity glitches.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:05 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I've noticed one thing that supports the reshuffling of pages: 

ASM 533: Towards the end of the issue, Tony Stark, (at the news conference) says that "the deadline for Registration has come and gone." And if all events in ASM 533 happen on the same day, then the day of Spider-Man's unmasking is clearly after the "midnight" of the registration deadline, (which matches Civil War #2, but not Civil War: Frontline #2). 

That would indeed seem to support the need to reshuffle pages...though if there's a better way to do this, I'd like to find it... 

Quote: 
>>>
Sorry for not responding to this earlier. I plan to get all the tie-ins except for Punisher War Journal v2 #1-3. I really am enjoying Civil War, despite the annoying continuity glitches. 
<<<

So, it's the complete opposite of "House of M" for you then? 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:22 pm    
By SeanCurtin

You have CW:FL 2/3 listed the day before Peter unmasks. Shouldn't it go after CW 2, not before? 

-Sean

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Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:49 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
You have CW:FL 2/3 listed the day before Peter unmasks. Shouldn't it go after CW 2, not before?  
<<<

Good catch, Sean. Yes, you're right. CW:FL 2/3 was inadvertently moved as a block with other CW:FL content. I'd place it as the last entry under June 30 for now. I'll edit.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:44 am    
By dubj1979

I think your Wolverine#43 can be rethought on the time were you stuck it. 

On page one he states that what he does best was illegal as of five minutes ago. On the top of pg2 it says 12:05PST so it would be 3hrs after CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (13p1-13p2) Which might give Iron Man enough time to get to him. Then again on pg6 Iron Man conferms the aprox time by saying "As one of the 198 mutants-at-large, you're already de facto registered under the S.R.A.(superhuman Registration act)" Then on pg 10 it jumps to daylight and Wolverine says he has decided to go with Tony's team to take down Nitro, from there to the end of the book it has apsolutly NO refrences to the time or were it would fit, except the fact that Wolvy has manicures on Wednesdays. So by the looks of it you have maybe a couple hrs of time between the takeoff from the city in the background to were ever th Big Sur is. It also leaves you to have time, maybe a day or 2 between pg9 and 10.

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Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:03 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

dubj1979 wrote: 
>>>
I think your Wolverine#43 can be rethought on the time were you stuck it.  
<<<

You know, I noticed that "illegal" statement on page 1 when I read this issue but missed it when I went back over it for cataloging into the calendar. Nice catch there, and in noting the inconsistency of Tony's statement about the 198 already being registered. Maybe Logan was either: (a) thinking in generalities, not necessarily applied to himself; or (b) unaware that he was already registered. 

Anyway, I take it that W3 43 belongs just before ASM 532 (18-19) in the sequence of events, and that the newspaper in W3 43 with the headline "Superhuman Registration Act passes" must be an old paper as it references Congress' passing of the Act, "three days" before the president signed it into law, which in turns occurs before the registration deadline. 

W3 43 also gives us a timeframe of "two weeks" from the Stamford incident to the registration deadline. I'll work on editing the post and re-post in the next couple of days. Meanwhile, if folks have other suggestions, please let us know.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:27 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I edited my previous post in this thread about Civil War chronology. I condensed the time period so that the registration deadline is "two weeks" after the Stamford incident. The start of CW is moved forward on the calendar to accommodate the "month" of preparation for Ben Grimm's bar mitzvah (as shown in THING2 8), which I have occurring just two days (on "Saturday") prior to the Stamford incident. I also moved the registration deadline to midnight on June 30, figuring an end-of-the-month deadline made sense. And I rearranged the order of events given not only the compressed time but also the necessary move of W3 43. I invite folks to take a look at the new chronology and comment. I expect it will change after this week's books come out, if not before (based on your comments).
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:14 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

As I predicted, it's time to rethink the Civil War calendar...again. From SPECSM2 28, it's clear that Spidey unmasks during the school year, so I may have to shift CW back a little. 

CW incongruity of the week: 
In SENSM2 28, it's morning, and Jordan is preparing to go to school. The TV news is showing a tape of Spidey's unmasking from "last night" and the Daily Bugle already has the headline, "You're Fired!" According to ASM 532, Spidey unmasks in the "morning" (daylight), and the tie-in to TB 103 appears to reinforce that morning placement. So which is it -- night or morning? If it's night, it would have to be pretty late for Peter's students not to learn of the unmasking until the next morning, and if it's that late, what's the point of that kind of timing for Stark's press conference? And wouldn't it be dark? If it's morning, I can see an early morning press conference to tie into morning network news, but how could the Daily Bugle already have a "You're Fired!" headline by the time the kids go to school? And if you wait a day for that headline to appear, then why would Spidey's unmasking be a surprise for anyone 24 hours later? I'm working on trying to reconcile this conundrum and its potential impact on the course of events in CW 2 and CW:FL 2 as well. 

I tell ya, I'm enjoying this story  , but the chronology is driving me up the flippin' wall! 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:25 pm   
By Somebody

Given Hudlin's MKSM arc and Cable/Deadpool #24 (Peter working for the Bugle during the summer holiday), wouldn't it have to be after the summer break rather than before for a calendaree? 

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Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:59 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

One other curio: FRONT LINE #3 includes a fight between two real Z-listers, Bantam and Thunderclap. Bantam, notoriously, is the bozo who used to dress as a boxing chicken. According to the Master List, Thunderclap's one and only previous appearance appears to be in Marvel UK's SPIDER-MAN WEEKLY #607, which is presumably now canonical by implication. Anyone have a copy of it?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:00 am   
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Given Hudlin's MKSM arc and Cable/Deadpool #24 (Peter working for the Bugle during the summer holiday), wouldn't it have to be after the summer break rather than before for a calendaree?  
<<<

Yes, you're correct in saying that CW is after that summer holiday -- but by my reckoning it's WAY after...I'm talking about the following year now. Peter didn't get that teaching job in the summer of Year 23 so he went back to work for the Bugle. When school resumed in the fall of Year 23, Peter stayed on at the Bugle. This is confirmed not only in C&DP 24 (which I have in fall of Year 23), but also in the more recent FNSM 1 (which I have in spring of Year 24). In SENSM2 28, which I have in June of Year 24, Peter is a teacher AND the Bugle fires him. I concluded from this that Peter was working two jobs throughout the school year of Year 23/24.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:31 pm
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I think I worked out a sequence of events that takes SENSM2 28 into account. It's not the neatest of patch jobs, but then that's par for the course with CW. Given the events of SENSM2 28, I think we're forced to place Spidey's unmasking early one evening rather than in the "morning" previously cited. The entries below concentrate on the period from just before the registration deadline. Dates still need to be adjusted based largely on the prominent school reference in SENSM2 28. AND the "three weeks" reference in MM2 5 is forcing me to return to the drawing board concerning the amount of time between House of M and Civil War. Sigh. 

Of course, I can guarantee the stuff below will change in two days. ;) 


Thursday, June 30 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (20-22) 
One day. Logan notes that hes been an Avenger for a couplea months now, but it must be more than a couplea months after A4 6. Over the objections of Scott and Emma, Logan leaves the Xavier Institute (managing to evade the Sentinels there) and heads to Stamford on a quest for Nitro. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (7-8p3) 
One day. Spidey (in his Iron Spider costume) swings past the Daily Bugle as Jonah and Robbie talk about the fact that the Superhuman Registration Act becomes law at midnight tonight. Robbie mentions a huge press conference Tony Stark is holding tomorrow morning. Stark and Happy anticipate the enactment of the law in twenty minutes. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (8) 
Perhaps the same rainy night as CW:FL 2 (6-7). Carrying a bottle of booze, the Slingers Prodigy declares from a rooftop at 11:59 PM, in one minute Ill be a bad guy cause some politician says theres a deadline. Among the crowd below are Ben Urich and Sally Floyd. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (1p5, 1p7, 2p2, 2p4, 2p6, 3p2, 3p4, 3p6) 
The same rainy night as CW:FL 2 (8). As Prodigy continues to rant, Iron Man heads toward the scene. 

Friday, July 1 
CIVIL WAR #2 (8p4) 
Early the morning after CW 2 (7-8). It is seven days after CW 2 (3p2) and 24 hours before CW 2 (9-18). This segment must occur before FF 538 and CW:FL 2/2. At midnight, the Superhuman Registration Act becomes law (meaning that its the first day to which the law applies, and heroes have until a specified deadline after this to register). 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (9p1) 
The rainy early morning after CW:FL 2/4-FB (3p6) and the same early morning as CW 2 (8p4). Probably right at midnight, Iron Man approaches Prodigy, who defies him. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (9p2) ~ CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (4p2) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (9p1). Iron Man tells Prodigy that he is an unregistered combatant and has ten seconds to leave. Note that Shellhead does not arrest Prodigy right off the bat but gives him the option to leave. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (9p3-11) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (9p2). Iron Man tries to convince Prodigy to register, but Prodigy calls him a traitor and attacks. The two heroes battle in the sky as Urich and Sally watch. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (4p4) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (9-11). Iron Man and Prodigy struggle. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (12) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2/4-FB (4p4). Sally voices her defense of Prodigy and Iron Man blasts the Slinger. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (4p6, 5p2) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (12). Prodigy lands unconscious on a rooftop. The authorities arrive and douse Prodigy in foam. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (13p1-13p2) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2/4-FB (5p2). At 12:05 AM, Prodigy continues to be doused and Sally voices her dissent. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (5p4, 5p6) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (13p1-13p2). The authorities carry Prodigy away as Iron Man looks on. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (13p3-14) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2/4-FB (5p6). This segment must occur before ASM 533 (17-23). The authorities load Prodigy into a helicopter and Iron Man flies away. Sally yells at Iron Man and the retreating airborne troops and at 12:15 AM, Urich finds himself wondering about the price of the registration law. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (18-19) 
One morning. It is four days, after ASM 532 (13-17). This segment probably occurs after CW 1 (29-31). At 7:05, Peter prepares to leave Avengers Tower (no Watchtower spires) for Washington and has second thoughts about revealing his identity. He thinks about being a fugitive but May reminds him about power and responsibility. 
WOLVERINE v3 #43 
One day, two weeks after CW 1 (1-7). This story occurs before CW 2 (3p1), three days before CW:FL 2/2, probably before XF3 8, and must occur after S-H4 8 (11-16). Logan notes at 12:05 AM PST (3:05 AM EST) that what he does is illegal as of five minutes ago. It is four days after Nitro left the East Coast for California, where Logan has arrived in pursuit. A newspaper in this issue reports that the Superhuman Registration Act passes  this must be an old paper. In a bar in Stockton, he discovers that Nitro has headed to Big Sur. Iron Man catches up to Logan and warns him not to go on this vendetta. Tony has a strike team ready to get Nitro in Big Sur and Logan joins the team. The team flubs their raid and Nitro blows them up, incinerating Logan in the process. Nitro reports to a mystery boss in Washington while Janus and company are on Logans trail. As Nitro prepares to leave the scene, hes attacked by a healed Logan. Green trees in California. It is not a Wednesday. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4 
Probably the same day as CW:FL 2 (13-14). Ben Urich writes about the Iron Man/Prodigy incident in terms of the tale of Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon and igniting civil war. 

Saturday, July 2 
CIVIL WAR #2 (9-17/18p5) 
The early morning of the day (24 hours) after CW 2 (8p4). SHIELD catches the unregistered Patriot trying to break up a mugging and captures the rest of the Young Avengers. Cap and the Falcon hijack the SHIELD transport holding the young heroes and have Wiccan teleport the vehicle to a top-secret SHIELD safe house, where Cap and his resistance movement (including Cage, the new Daredevil, Cable, Cloak, Dagger, and Hercules) have set up a headquarters for the Resistance, thanks to the underground Nick Fury. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (20) 
It must be the same day as ASM 532 (18-19), since Peter is in the same clothes. But according to SPECSM2 28, this scene occurs at night, not in the morning as the caption on this page notes. As Tony Stark prepares for another press conference, he is joined by Peter Parker, who vows to stand by him. Green trees in Washington, DC. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (17/18p6) 
The same evening as ASM 532 (20). Dagger calls the Resistances attention to a TV on which Stark appears. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (21p1-21p2) ~ CIVIL WAR #2 (19p1) 
The same evening as CW 2 (9-18). Stark begins the press conference and introduces Miriam Sharpe. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (19p2) 
The same evening as CW 2 (9p1). Scott, Emma, Beast, Colossus, and Logan watch the press conference at the Xavier Institute. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (21p3-21p4) 
The same evening as CW 2 (19p2). Spidey, in his classic costume, prepares to go out and join Stark at the press conference. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (19p3-19p4) 
The same evening as ASM 532 (21p3-21p4). Stark introduces Spidey. Sue Richards watches the press conference from the hospital room where Johnny lies in a coma. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (22) 
The same evening as CW 2 (19p3-19p4). Spidey steps up to the podium and says he has an announcement to make. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (20p1-20p4) 
The same morning as ASM 532 (22). Spidey makes a speech and Aunt May, M.J., the Daily Bugle staff, Wasp, Thing, She-Hulk, and Yellowjacket watch him on TV. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (20p5-21p1) ~ THUNDERBOLTS #103 (1p1) ~ AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (1) ~ CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/3  FB (1p1) 
The same evening as CW 2 (20p1-20p4). It is two weeks after CW 1 (7p2-7p4). Spidey unmasks himself and reveals that he is Peter Parker. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (21p2-22) ~ CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/3  FB (1p1) 
The same evening as CW 2 (20-21). Jonah faints and Spidey asks the press if they have any questions. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/3  FB (1p2-2p3, 2p5-3p3) 
The same evening as CW 2 (21-22). Spidey answers reporters questions. 
THUNDERBOLTS #103 (1p2-6p3) 
The same evening as CW:FL 2/3-FB (2-3). It is years after ASM 90 and months after A/TB 2. The Thunderbolts battle and defeat Quicksand in Denver. They catch a televised broadcast of the reporters questions for Spidey. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (2-11) 
The same evening as TB 103 (1-6). This segment must occur before FF 538. Jonah (now vertical) and Robbie catch the remainder of Spideys press conference. Jonah vows to make Peter pay for duping him all these years. After the conference, Peter ralphs and tells Stark hed better not regret revealing his identity. As Peter leaves Washington amid protesters, M.J., Aunt May, and Reed Richards call to congratulate him. Sue Richards shows her concern and she and Reed end up sniping. 
THUNDERBOLTS #103 (6p4-11) 
It must be the same evening as ASM 533 (2-11). This segment must occur after IHM:OL 1 (15-20) and before ASM 533 (2-23). The CSA invites the Thunderbolts to Washington, where Iron Man, Yellowjacket, and Mr. Fantastic tell the group that they want the Thunderbolts to hunt down super-villains and recruit them to the cause of registration. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (12-17p1) 
The same night as TB 103 (6-11). Peter is flown back to New York, and when he arrives (at sundown), hes given notice that the Bugle is suing him for $5 million. TV coverage of Spideys revelation from this morning is seen by Flash Thompson, Eddie Brock, Doc Ock, Vulture, and a host of others. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (17p2-19p3) 
The same night as ASM 533 (12-17). At Avengers Tower, Spidey, M.J., and May watch a televised press conference in which Stark announces that the deadline for registration has come and gone. Starting this time tomorrow, anyone on this list [of 137 heroes whose identities he knows] who has not come forward to register, or who gives aid and comfort to those who refuse  will be hunted down, arrested and imprisoned, without exception. Stark says that Spider-Man is on his strike team, much to Peters surprise. 
[BTS] 
The same night as ASM 533 (17-19). Stark probably goes with Reed, Hank, and the T-Bolts from DC to NY in mere moments, using the T-Bolts spatial portals. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (19p4-23) 
The same night as ASM 533 (17-19). This segment must occur before FF 538. I have the T-Bolts here during the eight hours between pages 11 and 12 of TB 103. As Peter and M.J. go out for air, a Cap supporter attempts to shoot Peter, but Peter webs him. Iron Man arrives (back in a flash from Washington) and Spidey gives him crap until Stark apologizes. Spidey notes that this day started with Stark and is now ending with Stark. Iron Man then leads Spidey into a meeting of the pro-registration heroes, including the active FF, the Thunderbolts, She-Hulk, Doc Samson, Ms. Marvel, Yellowjacket, and Wasp. 

Sunday, July 3 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (1-5) 
The early morning after ASM 533 (12-23). The first seven pages of CW:FL 2 must occur after the rest of the story. The Daily Bugles headline covers Spideys revelation with the headline, Youre Fired. Ben Urich is hounded by the press as he leaves the Bugle offices, then he encounters Peter in an elevator. Sally Floyd meets Firestar in a bar, and Firestar tells her she quits because of the Registration Act. It is a weekday, since Letterman is on TV. 
THUNDERBOLTS #103 (12-21) 
Early the morning (eight hours) after TB 103 (6-11). The Thunderbolts battle and defeat a trio of college kids whove stolen old Beetle armors in New Jersey. Back at their headquarters, Zemo toasts his team, and he and Melissa check in on the detention quadrant that holds a growing army of renegade villains they already started to capture three weeks ago. These villains include Batroc, Zaran, Boomerang, the U-Foes, the Wrecking Crew, Folding Circle, Quicksand, Pretty Persuasions, Mimic, Scarecrow, and the de-powered Blob. Green grass and trees in New Jersey. 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN v2 #28 
The weekday morning after ASM 533 (19-23). This story must occur before TB 104 (1-19). At 5:45 A.M., Jordan Harrison wakes and as he gets ready for school, he sees on the TV a replay of the press conference at which Spidey unmasked last night. Hes blown away by the revelation that Spidey is his science teacher, Peter Parker. (Its surprising that Jordan hadnt heard about this news earlier, as the press conference surely would have occurred before his bedtime the previous evening, and news travels fast.) The replay is also seen by Sue Richards, who is visiting Johnny in the hospital, and Doc Ock, to whom this is news (not as surprising, as the villain could easily have missed media coverage until now and his whereabouts would be known to very few if anyone). Jordan takes the subway, where he sees the Bugle headline, Youre Fired! He meets up with his friend Madeline and both witness a battle right in front of their school (Midtown High) between Spidey (in the Iron Spider costume) and the enraged Doc Ock. Jordan stands up to Ock and distracts him, allowing Spidey to administer the coup-de-gras. Presumably after this, Doc Ock is apprehended and handed over to the T-Bolts. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (6-7) 
The same day as CW:FL 2 (1-5). Robbie tells Jonah that Urich encountered Spidey last night and relays a message from Peter that he quits, backdated to before Jonah fired him. Jonah argues with Robbie and calls Peter a betrayer. The new front page headline of the Daily Bugle reads, Spiderman  Parker. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/3 
One day, shortly after CW:FL 2/3-FB (2-3). In prison, agents show Norman Osborn a tape of Spideys unmasking and Osborn gets angry, saying he broke the rules. An agent asks Osborn if hes prepared to play by a new set of rules. 

Monday, July 4: Independence Day 

Tuesday, July 5 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/2 
One day, probably after XF3 8. It is long enough after CW:FL 1/2 for Robbie to recover and grow back some hair. This story must occur after CW 2 (8p4), because according to CW:FL 3/2, Robbie was unconscious when the registration deadline passed. A government lawyer visits Robbie Baldwin at an undisclosed location where Robbie has been for more than three days. The lawyer tells him that the Superhuman Registration Act  which passed in both Congress [meaning the House] and the Senate three days ago  was signed into law today by the president. (The law likely includes a deadline for registration that may be shortly after this.) The lawyer gives Robbie one chance to avoid punishment for Stamford by registering and agreeing to work for SHIELD in subduing unregistered super-humans. Robbie refuses because he insists he did nothing wrong. He is beaten and taken to a maximum security penitentiary, where he is handed over to the mercy of other prisoners who know his identity. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #538 
One day. This story must occur after FOUR 30, CW 2 (8p4), and ASM 533 (19-23). The FF visit the comatose Johnny in the hospital. There, Reed and Sue get into an argument about Reeds helping Stark round up heroes. Ben keeps vigil over Johnny, then Sue returns and talks to him about her feelings about registration. Ben sees a live TV news report about a battle on Yancy Street between pro- and anti-registration heroes. Ben rushes there and sees Ms. Marvel fighting Silverclaw. Carol asks for Bens help in apprehending Silverclaw, but Ben walks away. Ben then talks to Yancy Streeters who protest the Registration Act. They tell him that he has to choose sides. Meanwhile, the Mad Thinker and the Puppet Master plan to hit a security van carrying heroes to prison tomorrow at ten. In Oklahoma, Don Blake arrives, grabs Thors hammer, and flies off with it. Green trees in New York. Waning crescent moon. 

Wednesday, July 6 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #3/2 (1-7) 
Probably the day after CW:FL 2/2. She-Hulk visits her client, Robbie Baldwin, in jail and reviews his case with him. Jen encourages Robbie to plead criminal negligence, but Robbie refuses. Hes led back to his cell, where he is harassed by guards and fellow inmates. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #3 
One night. In a secret location, Sally Floyd interviews a group of super-beings who refuse to register. They include Solo, Typeface, and Battlestar. At the Baxter Building, Ben Urich interviews Reed Richards, who notes that its been a difficult week. Reed and Urich voice different views about registration. On her way back from her interview, Sally encounters a battle between the anti-registration Thunderclap and pro-registration Bantam. Things get out of hand and Bantam is killed by mistake. 

Thursday, July 7 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #3/2 (8-9) 
Perhaps the day after CW:FL 3/2 (1-7). She-Hulk comes to Robbie with an offer from the governor to have Robbie register as a costumed hero and agree to three years community service. Robbie refuses, saying it would amount to an admission of guilt. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #3/3  FB 
One evening. Karen Mason purchases a tetra at an aquarium store. Store owners Joe and his wife close the store and go home, where they see TV news coverage of beached whales. Joe goes into the bathroom, injects himself with a serum and turns into a blue-skinned Atlantean. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #3/3 
The same night as CW:FL 3/3. Police investigate an explosion at the fish store and interview Karen Mason. 

Friday, July 8 
THUNDERBOLTS #104 (1-19) 
One day, weeks after the Beetle armors were stolen. This story must occur after SPECSM2 28. Three teams of Thunderbolts round up more renegade villains simultaneously  Mach IV and the Beetles apprehend Eel and Porcupine; Songbird, Atlas, and Smuggler nab Mongoose; and Blizzard, Fixer, Joystick, and Quicksand defeat the U-Foes. Dallas and Gyrich monitor the teams work and present their plans for the T-Bolts to Washington decision makers. Zemo drops in on Reed Richards, Yellowjacket, and Radioactive Man to check on their progress with the construction of a new prison facility for arrested super-heroes. Swordsman trains new super-villain recruits Ox, Cobra, and Unicorn in new Mexico and has a skirmish with the new Whiplash and Blacklash. The T-Bolts arrive, and before a vast gathering of villains, Doc Ock questions Zemo. 
THUNDERBOLTS #104 (20-21) 
One night. Zemo teleports to the underground headquarters of the Resistance, where he meets Cap, Falcon (without goatee), and Hercules. Zemo offers them a deal to gain freedom and redemption at such a time that the government imprisons them.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:40 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
AND the "three weeks" reference in MM2 5  
<<<

MM2? What's that? 

[The Key lists Machine Man as MM, and of course there's no Machine Man v2 running presently, so that helps not]

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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:45 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Paul, do you mean Ms. Marvel v2 #5? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:01 am    
By Paul Boucier
Director

Um...yeah. Make that MSM2 5. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:50 pm    
By Somebody

Cable's apparance in C/D #30 vs. CW seems... loose. He's meeting Cap on a rooftop in what must occur after Civil War #2, given the Young Avengers' presence, but Cable was in their safehouse when the YAs arrived. Moreover, while there are several implicit references, the last scene references the Cap/DD2/Herc/Goliath diner conversation in CW3. But Cable's talking as if its' the first time he's seen Cap since Civil War started. 

Probably fits, but might need a crowbar.

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Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:12 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It depends what happens after CIVIL WAR #3. CABLE & DEADPOOL #30 fits, a little awkwardly, if it takes place after CIVIL WAR #3 and Cap's group are all familiar with their new cover identities. (Goliath even references a comment that he made in that issue.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:28 am    
By JD

Also, C/D #30 seems to confirm the leading theory regarding the identity of Daredevil 2. 

HEAVY SPOILERS (highlight to see) 
Quote: 
The "deja-vu" comment at the end of this issue matches the fact that this page is nearly identical to C/D #21-page 4, where Deadpool fences with... Iron Fist. They do exactly the same fighting moves (DD2/IF knees DP's face, DP catches his ankle). Deadpool seems to make the connection : "wait a minute, you're not even Daredevil for real, are you ? You're really..." 

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Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:45 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

That's the leading theory as to who the new Daredevil is? I heard the "leading theory" was another well known figure... 

POSSIBLE SPOILERS, (highlight to read): Quote: 
I heard it was Hawkeye 

Speaking of which, is that indeed Matt Murdock in Civil War #3? I thought Joe Quesada was teasing us about the Daredevil appearing in Civil War being someone else. I seem to recall in one of the Joe Friday interviews him teasing us by saying something like, "Yes, just what IS the significance of Daredevil playing with that coin in Civil War #1? Hmm?" 

To which I of course thought to myself, "Two-Face is the New Daredevil?!?" 

Anyway, if it is Matt Murdock appearing in the pages of Civil War, then DD2 #82-87 occurs before Civil War, (as Matt supposedly escapes from jail in Issue 87...which is set to be released next week. Review of those issues to follow soon after!)
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:03 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The Daredevil in CIVIL WAR isn't Matt Murdock. That's confirmed in the Director's Cut edition of CIVIL WAR #1. The published version has the character's identity blacked out. Unfortunately, the name is still legible. Marvel claim there are five variant editions, but other than Marvel staff and their friends, nobody seems to have seen any of these alleged variants, so it's probably a desperate attempt at misdirection. Everyone else seems to agree that the script 

Quote: 
identifies Daredevil II as Iron Fist 
.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:09 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Well, granted, everyone was in secret identities in that diner, but I thought the eyes looked kind of hazy, (like how the artists usually depict Matt Murdock's eyes). Makes for the ultimate disguise though: Matt Murdock is blind, so who's going to suspect that guy wearing regular glasses is the blind Matt Murdock? 

But I must've misinterpretted the scene...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:13 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

I just read She-Hulk #9. So J. Jonah Jameson's idea to sue Spider-Man apparently comes from She-Hulk, placing this issue in the middle of Amazing Spider-Man #533. The day of Spider-Man's unmasking must be the longest day in Marvel history.. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:04 am    
By JD

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
So J. Jonah Jameson's idea to sue Spider-Man apparently comes from She-Hulk, placing this issue in the middle of Amazing Spider-Man #533.  
<<<

Er, no. From what I understood of taht issue, JJJ first announced he'd be suing (ASM 533 and so forth), then Stark talked the authorities into giving amnesty to registered superheroes. that's why JJJ is so angry in this issue ("but my lawyers said I could sue his wallcrawling ***** for that !", implying he's already trying to sue Spidey). She-Hulk only givers him a loophole to sue anyway. 

It might still be the same day, but ASM 533 is before S-H 9.

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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:40 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Yes, but She-Hulk #9 starts out with, (once again) the images being broadcast on TV of Spider-Man unmasking. They've been broadcasting the images for the last "10 hours", according to one of the staff at Jen's law firm. And Pug hadn't heard about it before now...so I think it's pretty clear that the day in She-Hulk #9 is the same day as Spider-Man unmasks. 

And the way I read the issue, Jonah was talking to his lawyers that morning, only to hear on the news about "Amnesty" for superheroes who register, and this is followed by Jen telling him he can still sue. Since Jen specifically discusses the $5 million with Jonah at the end of the issue, I felt it makes sense for Peter to get served the lawsuit for $5 million, (as shown in Amazing Spider-Man #533) after that point.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:25 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The beginning of SHE-HULK #9, yes. There's plenty of scope for inserting breaks into the action, though.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:11 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Here's my latest take on Civil War chronology. I think I've addressed the She-Hulk issue here, as well as several other things that needed some clarification. Ignore the dates for the time being; they're just placeholders that allow you to better track the passage of time. And it's a guarantee that things will change in a few days. 


Sunday, June 12 
UNCANNY X-MEN #475 
One day, two days after UX 475-FB (3-5). This story must occur after X 188-FB (4-21). In Egypt, Lorna is pursued by enemies of Apocalypse in high-tech fighting machines. Xaviers team of X-Men (Havok, Marvel Girl, Warpath, and Nightcrawler) come to her rescue. Lorna is recruited for Xaviers mission  to stop Vulcan from wreaking vengeance on the ShiAr Empire. In space, Vulcan destroys a ShiAr ship. 

Monday, June 13 
UNCANNY X-MEN #476  FB 
Probably the morning after UX 475. Xavier asks Scott to let Darwin go with him on his mission, but Scott refuses. Scott and Xavier argue and Alex arrives to support Xavier. Scott relents. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #476 
The same morning as UX 476-FB. Xaviers X-Men go to a secret ShiAr base in upstate New York to find a spacecraft. There, they battle and defeat mutated former prisoners of the ShiAr who were left at the base. The X-Men blast off in a spaceship and jump through a stargate beyond the moon, only to discover that the remaining stargates that lead to the ShiAr empire have been destroyed. Green grass and trees in New York. 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (1-6) 
One morning. Logan fights the Crusader and his flunkies aboard a federal treasury plane they hijacked. Logan brings the plane down in a crash landing. He wakes up three hours later and gets directions to the nearest bar from an FAA body-hauler. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (1-7p1) 
The same school day as W3 42 (1-6). This segment must occur after THING2 8 and probably occurs a couple of days before CW 1 (13-17). According to CW:OS, this segment occurs months after H3 92 (1p4-1p6). This segment occurs after IHM:MI 1 (5-10) and after Novas departure from the New Warriors in A:N 1. It occurs before the flashbacks in S-H4 8 and two weeks before W3 43. Three months after breaking out of Rykers, Cobalt Man, Coldheart, Speedfreek, and Nitro are staked out at a house in Stamford by the New Warriors, who are filming an episode for the second season of their reality TV show. Despite the fact that theyre outmatched, the Warriors attack for the sake of ratings. In the fracas Nitro prepares to explode. Green grass and trees in Connecticut. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1  FB (2p2-2p4) 
The same day as CW 1 (1-7). Cameraman John Fernandez stands before Nitro as he explodes. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (7p2-7p4) 
The same day as CW:FL 1-FB (2p2-2p4). This segment occurs two weeks before TB 103 (1p1). Nitros explosion killing and wounding an estimated 800-900 people, including schoolchildren. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1/2  FB (8p6) 
The same day as CW 1 (7p2-7p4). Speedball absorbs the brunt of the explosion and is blown into the sky. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1  FB (2p5) 
The same day as CW:FL 1/2-FB (8p6). It is probably a few days before CW:FL 1 (1-5). John Fernandez lay dead. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532  FB (2-3) 
The same day as CW:FL 1/2. While flying in a plane, Tony and Peter find out about the Stamford disaster. 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (7-11p1) 
The same day as ASM 532-FB (2-3). This segment probably occurs after FFS 1. As Logan orders beer at the bar, he gets an alert on his Avengers pager and sees TV news coverage of the Stamford explosion. In Latveria, Doom views a tape of the Warriors fight and takes an interest in Nitro. Logan shows up in Stamford and helps in the rescue/recovery effort. Green trees in Latveria. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (8-9) 
The same day as W3 42 (7-11). The Avengers (Cap, Cage, Iron Man, Spider-Woman, Logan, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, Falcon w/goatee), Goliath (Foster), the FF, and the X-Men (Scott, Rachel, Colossus, Iceman) help the authorities search for survivors in Stamford. This occasion may be the last time that Carol has talked to Cap, a couple weeks before MSM2 5 (20-21). 
CIVIL WAR #1 (10p1) ~ WOLVERINE v3 #42 (11p2) 
The same day as CW 1 (8-9). Iron Man tells Cap the authorities have a lead on Nitro. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (10p2-11p2) 
The same day as CW 1 (10p1). Iron Man discusses the New Warriors bad judgment with Cap. Rachel levitates some debris. 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (11p3) 
The same day as CW 1 (10-11). Logan dwells on scapegoats for the tragedy. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (11p3-11p5) 
The same day as W3 42 (11p3). Logan notices that the Sentinels have arrived. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (12p1-12p2) ~ WOLVERINE v3 #42 (11p4) 
The same day as CW 1 (11p3-11p5). Logan remarks about the Sentinels presence and Lex notes that theyre just doing their job. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (12p3-12p5) 
The same day as CW 1 (12p1-12p2). As they work, the heroes discuss the repercussions of the tragedy. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532  FB (4-5) 
The same day as CW 1 (12p3-12p5). Two hours after ASM 532-FB (2-3), after all the bodies have been retrieved from the rubble, Spidey notices that onlookers are staring at the heroes with hatred. The president arrives by helicopter. 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (12) 
The same day as W3 42 (11p4). It is days before W3 42 (13-15) and W3 42 (17-19). A suburban couple is summoned by the Operations Directorate. It is not a Thursday. Green grass and trees in New York. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532  FB (6-12) 
The same day as W3 42 (12). Three hours after ASM 532-FB (4-5), Peter accompanies Stark to the White House, where Tony meets with the president and tells him that he is Iron Man. After the meeting, Tony explains the new reality of superhuman registration to Peter and asks him to consider revealing his secret identity to comply with the Registration Act, which the president is expected to sign very soon (so soon that Tony stays in DC to meet with the president again after he signs the act, but these plans may change). Peter flies back to New York in a Stark jet. Green grass and trees in Washington, DC. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1/2 (1-6) 
The same night as CW:FL 1-FB (2p5). Two guys discover Speedball barely conscious in a wheat field in upstate New York. The energy absorbed by Speedball is released, killing the two guys. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #531 (21-22) 
The same night as ASM 532-FB (6-12). This segment must occur before XF3 8. As M.J. showers in Avengers Tower (no Watchtower spires), Peter (after a stressful day) watches a TV news report about the tragedy in Stamford. A sports report on the TV indicates that its Major League Baseball season. Full moon. 

Tuesday, June 14 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1/2 (7-11) 
The day after CW:FL 1/2 (1-6). It is long enough before CW:FL 2/2 for Robbie to recover and regrow some of his hair. A powerless Speedball comes to in a SHIELD medical facility and is arrested. 

Wednesday, June 15 
SHE-HULK v4 #8  FB (8p4) 
One day, after CW 1 (12p3-12p5). In the wake of the Stamford tragedy, Hindsight Lad has started his hate site Destroy All Warriors and sets up a fake attack on his property. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (13-17) 
One day, shortly after CW 1 (12p3-12p5). This segment must occur before ASM 532 (20-22) and FF 538-FB. Larry King interviews She-Hulk about a proposed ban on super-heroes. At a memorial service for the Stamford victims, Miriam Sharpe, the mother of a boy who was killed, spits at Tony Stark and blames him for the recklessness of vigilante super-heroes. Present are J. Jonah Jameson and photographer Peter Parker. Perhaps that night, Johnny Storm goes clubbing and is beaten into a coma by a throng of people who blame him for the Stamford tragedy. Green trees in Connecticut and light clothing in New York. 
WOLVERINE v2 #42 (13-15) 
One night, days after W3 42 (13). With hatred and fear of superhumans mounting, Logan is asked to leave a Japanese restaurant in New York and confronts a hostile group outside. 

Thursday, June 16 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1 (1-5) 
One rainy day, probably a few days after CW:FL 1-FB (2p5). The staff of the Daily Bugle attend John Fernandezs funeral, then retire to a bar to discuss the Stamford tragedy, the Superhuman Registration Act, and Jonahs reaction to it. Green grass and trees in New York. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (18-19p4) 
The day after CW 1 (13-17). This segment occurs before S-H4 8 (1-10) and probably before TB 102-FB (1-2). It is two weeks before the superhuman registration proposal goes to a vote in Congress, but it appears that Congress acts on the proposal more quickly; the swift response is noted in CW 1 (32-33). With Johnny in the hospital, 23 (I count 24-25) super-heroes  Reed, Sue, Ben, Strange, Iron Man, Cage, Wasp, Yellowjacket, Falcon, Nighthawk (with the thick forehead stripe seen in THING2 1-3), Spidey, Spider-Woman, Scott, Logan, Hercules, She-Hulk, Valkyrie, Patriot, Hulking, Kate, Cassie, the new Daredevil, Felicia, Rachel  gather at the Baxter Building to debate about superhuman registration and the group is dividing into two camps. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (19p5-19p6) ~ WOLVERINE v3 #42 (16p1-16p3) 
The same evening as CW 1 (18-19). At 6:36 PM, Falcon objects to the infringement of superhuman rights, but Yellowjacket remarks that superhumans are lucky to have been tolerated for as long as they have. Logan remarks that masks are necessary in a hostile world, and the Thing inquires whether Johnny would have ended up in the hospital last night if some superhumans werent giving everyone a bad name. 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (16p4) 
The same evening as CW 1 (19p5-19p6). Someone answers, I dont know. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (20) 
The same evening as W3 42 (16p4). Spidey expresses concern for the safety of loved ones if superhumans identities were outed. Nighthawk wonders if theyre being paranoid, but the new Daredevil remarks that this is the end of the way heroes do business. 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (17-19) 
The same evening as CW 1 (20). It is days after CW 1 (13). Iron Man tells Logan that SHIELD is withholding intel about Nitro and Logan is itching to get him. Logan and Cage have a discussion about registration and civil liberties. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (21-28) 
The same evening as W3 42 (17-19). In a helicarrier above New York, Cap meets with Maria Hill and warns her that the issue of registration will result in war between factions of the super-hero community. When Hill suggests that Cap and the Avengers suppress the objectors, Cap rebels and Hill orders SHIELD to attack Cap. Cap plows through the SHIELD agents and runs. 
NEW AVENGERS #21  FB (1p3) 
The same evening as CW 1 (21-31). SHIELD agents fire at Cap as he runs on the helicarrier deck. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (29-31) 
The same evening as A4 21-FB (1p3). This segment occurs before A4 21, shortly before S-H4 9-FB, and probably before ASM 532 (18-19) and TB 102-FB (1-2). Cap escapes from the helicarrier. After this, he becomes a fugitive. The Watcher shows up at the Baxter Building to observe. 

Friday, June 17 
SHE-HULK v4 #8  FB (8p5) 
One day. Debriis identity is outed by the New Warriors hate site and her car is torched. 

Saturday, June 18 
SHE-HULK v4 #8  FB (8p6) 
One day. Timeslips identity is outed by the New Warriors hate site and she flees from a mob. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1 (6-13) 
One day, shortly after CW:FL 1 (1-5). This segment occurs after GENM 5 (24) and the year after GENM 5-FB (8-9). Ben Urich and Robbie Robertson discuss the Bugles handling of the Stamford tragedy. Ben is assigned to cover the Iron Man press conference tomorrow morning. That night, Spider-Man (in version 2.0 of his Iron Spider costume) visits Sally Floyd at her apartment. Spidey talks about the pressure for him to reveal his identity and the consequences. He tells her to go to Iron Mans press conference tomorrow. A reference to Friday as an upcoming day indicates that its neither Friday nor likely Thursday. 

Sunday, June 19 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1 (14-18) 
The morning after CW:FL 1 (6-13). This segment must occur before CW 2 (3p1), in which a newspaper headline announces that Congress has passed the Registration Act. Iron Man conducts his press conference about the proposed Super Hero Registration Act currently making the rounds of Congress, whose acceleration has been the subject of much speculation in recent weeks. Iron Man removes his helmet to reveal himself as Tony Stark. 
NEW AVENGERS #21 (1-9) 
One day. In a hideaway, Steve Rogers tries to draw, but hes so lost in thought about recent events that he fails to detect a SHIELD squad that has snuck up on him with new capekilling tech designed by Stark. He defeats the SHIELD team and encounters Dum Dum, who allows Cap to escape. Cap heads for an old secret bunker of Nick Furys in the Manhattan sewers. 
THUNDERBOLTS #102  FB (1-2) 
One day, three days before TB 102. This flashback probably occurs after CW 1 (29-31). Nighthawk joins the Squadron Sinister, now renamed Supreme Power, and the Grandmaster to find the Wellspring of Power that spawned the Squadrons abilities. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1/3 
One night, probably after CW:FL 1 (6-13). Spidey (in the Iron Spidey costume) swings around New York, thinking about Japanese internment during World War II as he ponders the decision he must make about registering and revealing his identity. 

Monday, June 20 
NEW AVENGERS #21 (10-21) 
Perhaps the day after A4 21 (1-9). This segment must occur before S-H4 8 (11-16), BP4 17 (1-14), and MSM2 5 (20-21). Cap awakens in Furys secret bunker when Falcon shows up looking for him. Cap verifies Sams identity and asks him if he registered (which doesnt necessarily mean that mandatory registration is law yet). Cap swears to fight back and Sam agrees to help him put a resistance team together. They write off Spider-Man (in version 2.0 of the Iron Spider costume) as a Stark ally, then, in Caps first public appearance since going AWOL, they defeat the Shocker who was in a standoff with police at a federal courthouse. The TV news reports the incident and notes an emergency Congressional session to debate legality of role of super heroes in government. Cap and Sam try to enlist Hank Pym, who tells them hes on Starks side. Pym turns giant and tries to prevent the duo from leaving to give a SHIELD team time to arrive. Cap injures Pyms nose and he and Sam escape Anita Hill and the SHIELD team. Sam asks Cap, Whos next? Avengers Tower has the Watchtower spires. 
SHE-HULK v4 #8 (1-10) 
One day, after CW 1 (18-31). This segment probably occurs after IHM:MI 1/2 (6-11). John Jameson test pilots an Extreme Vertical Assault (EVA) craft for the military, who plan to use it against super-humans who oppose the Superhuman Registration Act, which is expected to pass. Jennifer sees Doc Samson and Dr. Strange at Stranges Sanctum Sanctorum. Strange lifts Wandas old spell from Jennifer, which cures her of her difficulty in changing into She-Hulk. At GLK&H headquarters, Justice and Rage (both back in their old Avengers costumes) asks for Jennifers help in shutting down a hate site on the web that is revealing the secret identities of the remaining New Warriors. She agrees, and that night John Jameson talks to her about her different stances as She-Hulk (pro-registration) and Jennifer Walters (anti-registration). 

Tuesday, June 21: Summer Solstice 
SHE-HULK v4 #8 (11-16) 
The day after S-H4 8 (1-10), since John refers to his test flight as having occurred yesterday; apparently it took no time for the New Warriors case against the hate site to go to court. This segment must occur before W3 43. On day one of the court case, Stamford survivors tell their stories and an outburst by Rage gets him and Justice removed from the courtroom. Meanwhile, John has a clandestine meeting with Cap in a bookstore basement. Cap asks John if hell ask She-Hulk to fight on his side if the Registration Act is enacted. John refuses and talks about his feelings for Jen. Steve encourages John to do something about it. 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #17 (1-14) 
One day. This story must occur after A4 21 (10-21), given that Cap is a fugitive and is in touch with Sam, although Sam isnt apprehended here for being an accomplice of Caps. TChalla and Ororo hold a press conference in Manhattan. Logan and TShan go along with Cages plans to give TChalla a bachelor party, but TChalla rejects the idea. Storm goes shopping with Kitty Pryde and Sue Richards and discovers that someones been passing herself off as TChallas bride. Back at the Wakandan Embassy, TChalla and Ororo have a romp and the Falcon (depicted with a red, not a yellow, beank symbol on his mask) relays a message from the indisposed Cap concerning the Bradleys. Sam is determined to get Cap to the wedding despite what the state department says. Meanwhile in Africa, Man-Ape goes ape over the wedding. Avengers Tower does not have the Watchtower spires. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #538  FB 
One night. This flashback must occur after CW 1 (13-17). Word gets out about Thors hammer in Oklahoma and guys line up to get a shot at lifting it. 

Wednesday, June 22 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #17 (15) 
The morning after BP4 17 (1-14). Storm tells TChalla that shes going out with the girls on Friday night and suggests that he go to the bachelor party his friends are planning for that night. 
SHE-HULK v4 #8 (17-22) 
The day after S-H4 8 (11-16). On day two of the court case, the defense calls Iron Man to the stand and Jen brings up Starks past sins concerning his Iron Man secrets. Afterward, Iron Man gives She-Hulk data on the identity and location of the hate sites creator. She-Hulk, Justice, Rage, Slapstick, Ultragirl, and Firestar confront Hindsight Lad, who explains his actions. The heroes are approached by an angry mob, which is dispersed when an EVA craft lands. Inside is John Jameson, who proposes marriage to Jen. Green grass and leafy trees. 
THUNDERBOLTS #102 
One day, three days after TB 102-FB (1-2). This story probably occurs before Congress passes the Registration Act, as noted in CW 1 (32-33). As Joystick secretly observes, Speed Demon fights ninja monks in Tokyo who have been tapping power from the Wellspring. Speed Demon leaves after the monks spit out their power, then Joystick emerges and beats info about the Wellspring out of one of the ninjas. She teleports to the Fixers lab in New York, where Zemo has a teleconference with Gyrich and Dallas. Zemo notes the recent aggressive stances taken by your government towards the superhuman community and Abner predicts that if they really go through with the registration act, itll split the super hero community in half. As Joystick reports to Zemo, Supreme Power convene and discuss the Wellspring of Power, then teleport away to find access points to the Wellspring as Joystick appears at their Manhattan apartment. Grandmaster sees her as Fixer teleports Joystick to Istanbul. There, she beats on more monks whose released powers she records on a device created by Fixer. Speed Demon shows up and fights Joystick, who breaks his legs and collects his power. Back in New York, Zemo congratulates Joystick, who is double-dealing with the Grandmaster. 

Thursday, June 23 
CIVIL WAR #1 (32-33) 
One day, probably after TB 102. Rallying around Miriam Sharpe, protesters demand superhuman registration at the White House, where the Cabinet notes Congress swift response and Caps going underground and becoming a figurehead for opponents to registration. Present are Iron Man, Reed Richards, and Yellowjacket, who plan to deal with Cap. Green trees in DC. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (1-2) 
One night. SHIELD picks up a chained-up Vulture, Grim Reaper, and Trapster  the latest in a string of fifteen super-villains apprehended by Captain America. inside of seventy-two hours. Maria Hill suspects that Cap now has allies. 

Friday, June 24 
CIVIL WAR #2 (3p1) 
One day. Newspapers report: Registration Act Passed by Congress, President Promises Swift Action, Captain America Goes into Hiding, and Tony Stark Now Backing Super Hero Reform,  the last an apparent reference to the press conference of CW:FL (14-18). This may be a collection of recent papers that dont necessarily share the same date. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (3p2) 
Perhaps the same day as CW 2 (3p1). It is seven days before CW 2 (8p4). The press interview a government official about Caps stance. She states that theres seven days before the act becomes law (this may be a reference to the proposed registration deadline date, not the date the president is expected to sign the Act into law). 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #17 (16-22) 
The Friday night after BP4 17 (15). Cage, Logan, Sam, Namor, TShan, and Ben Grimm take TChalla to Rio in an Avengers quinjet for a bachelor party at a strip club, but when the ladies come on to TChalla, he leaves. While out on the town with Sue and Kitty, Ororo encounters her imitator, Princess Zanda. Ororo decks her. She and TChalla meet back up at the Wakandan Embassy, ready to get married. 

Saturday, June 25 

Sunday, June 26 

Monday, June 27 
[BTS] 
One day, four days before W3 43. Nitro leaves the East Coast in a pick-up bound for California. 
MS. MARVEL v2 #5 (20-21) 
One day, three weeks after MSM2 5 (1-19), during which time the press got interested in all the hoopla in Washington about the Super Hero Registration Act. It is a couple weeks since Carol and Cap have talked, perhaps at the Stamford incident. This segment must occur after A4 21 (10-21). Iron Man calls Carol to asks if shes seen Cap and tells her to call him if she does. Just then, Cap shows up at Carols newly repaired apartment. 
SHE-HULK v4 #9  FB 
One day, six days before S-H4 9 (1-9). This flashback occurs shortly after CW 1 (29-31). Pug barges in on Mr. Zix floating in his office conversing with someone distant about She-Hulks recent proximity to Uatu. Zix secretly prepares to shoot Pug, but Pug claims no interest in the mumbo-jumbo; he just wants to review GLK&Hs video records. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (1) 
One night. Peter asks M.J.s and Mays help in deciding what to do regarding revealing his identity. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (13-17) 
The same night as ASM 532 (1). It is four days, before ASM 532 (18-19). M.J. and May express their feelings and urge Peter to reveal his identity. 

Tuesday, June 28 

Wednesday, June 29 
CIVIL WAR #2 (3p3-4) 
One day. Yellowjacket, Mr. Fantastic, Iron Man, Doc Samson, Warbird, Tigra, and She-Hulk (who is not wearing her gamma charger) defeat a Doombot in New York City and discuss registration. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (5-6) 
One night. At the Baxter Building, Sue checks in on Reed before going to visit Johnny in the hospital. Reed, excited about Starks plans for super-humans, does not divulge the contents of a CD labeled 42. 

Thursday, June 30 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (20-22) 
One day. Logan notes that hes been an Avenger for a couplea months now, but it must be more than a couplea months after A4 6. Over the objections of Scott and Emma, Logan leaves the Xavier Institute (managing to evade the Sentinels there) and heads to Stamford on a quest for Nitro. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (7-8p3) 
One day. Spidey (in his Iron Spider costume) swings past the Daily Bugle as Jonah and Robbie talk about the fact that the Superhuman Registration Act becomes law at midnight tonight. Robbie mentions a huge press conference Tony Stark is holding tomorrow morning. Stark and Happy anticipate the enactment of the law in twenty minutes. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (8) 
Perhaps the same rainy night as CW:FL 2 (6-7). Carrying a bottle of booze, the Slingers Prodigy declares from a rooftop at 11:59 PM, in one minute Ill be a bad guy cause some politician says theres a deadline. Among the crowd below are Ben Urich and Sally Floyd. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (1p5, 1p7, 2p2, 2p4, 2p6, 3p2, 3p4, 3p6) 
The same rainy night as CW:FL 2 (8). As Prodigy continues to rant, Iron Man heads toward the scene. 

Friday, July 1 
CIVIL WAR #2 (8p4) 
Early the morning after CW 2 (7-8). It is seven days after CW 2 (3p2) and 24 hours before CW 2 (9-18). This segment must occur before FF 538 and CW:FL 2/2. At midnight, the Superhuman Registration Act becomes law (meaning that its the first day to which the law applies, and heroes have until a specified deadline after this to register). 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (9p1) 
The rainy early morning after CW:FL 2/4-FB (3p6) and the same early morning as CW 2 (8p4). Probably right at midnight, Iron Man approaches Prodigy, who defies him. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (9p2) ~ CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (4p2) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (9p1). Iron Man tells Prodigy that he is an unregistered combatant and has ten seconds to leave. Note that Shellhead does not arrest Prodigy right off the bat but gives him the option to leave. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (9p3-11) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (9p2). Iron Man tries to convince Prodigy to register, but Prodigy calls him a traitor and attacks. The two heroes battle in the sky as Urich and Sally watch. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (4p4) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (9-11). Iron Man and Prodigy struggle. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (12) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2/4-FB (4p4). Sally voices her defense of Prodigy and Iron Man blasts the Slinger. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (4p6, 5p2) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (12). Prodigy lands unconscious on a rooftop. The authorities arrive and douse Prodigy in foam. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (13p1-13p2) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2/4-FB (5p2). At 12:05 AM, Prodigy continues to be doused and Sally voices her dissent. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (5p4, 5p6) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (13p1-13p2). The authorities carry Prodigy away as Iron Man looks on. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (13p3-14) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2/4-FB (5p6). This segment must occur before ASM 533 (17-23). The authorities load Prodigy into a helicopter and Iron Man flies away. Sally yells at Iron Man and the retreating airborne troops and at 12:15 AM, Urich finds himself wondering about the price of the registration law. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (18-19) 
One morning. It is four days, after ASM 532 (13-17). This segment probably occurs after CW 1 (29-31). At 7:05, Peter prepares to leave Avengers Tower (no Watchtower spires) for Washington and has second thoughts about revealing his identity. He thinks about being a fugitive but May reminds him about power and responsibility. 
WOLVERINE v3 #43 
One day, two weeks after CW 1 (1-7). This story occurs before CW 2 (3p1), three days before CW:FL 2/2, probably before XF3 8, and must occur after S-H4 8 (11-16). Logan notes at 12:05 AM PST (3:05 AM EST) that what he does is illegal as of five minutes ago. It is four days after Nitro left the East Coast for California, where Logan has arrived in pursuit. A newspaper in this issue reports that the Superhuman Registration Act passes  this must be an old paper. In a bar in Stockton, he discovers that Nitro has headed to Big Sur. Iron Man catches up to Logan and warns him not to go on this vendetta. Tony has a strike team ready to get Nitro in Big Sur and Logan joins the team. The team flubs their raid and Nitro blows them up, incinerating Logan in the process. Nitro reports to a mystery boss in Washington while Janus and company are on Logans trail. As Nitro prepares to leave the scene, hes attacked by a healed Logan. Green trees in California. It is not a Wednesday. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4 
Probably the same day as CW:FL 2 (13-14). Ben Urich writes about the Iron Man/Prodigy incident in terms of the tale of Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon and igniting civil war. 

Saturday, July 2 
CIVIL WAR #2 (9-17/18p5) 
The early morning of the day (24 hours) after CW 2 (8p4). SHIELD catches the unregistered Patriot trying to break up a mugging and captures the rest of the Young Avengers. Cap and the Falcon hijack the SHIELD transport holding the young heroes and have Wiccan teleport the vehicle to a top-secret SHIELD safe house, where Cap and his resistance movement (including Cage, the new Daredevil, Cable, Cloak, Dagger, and Hercules) have set up a headquarters for the Resistance, thanks to the underground Nick Fury. 
CIVIL WAR #3  FB 
One day, likely before ASM 532 (20). Cap, Falcon, and the new Daredevil battle a new Sinister Six, which includes Lizard, Doc Ock, and Shocker. I theorize that Ock escapes and holes up the rest of the day, missing the unmasking of Spidey until the next morning in SENSM 28. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (20) 
It must be the same day as ASM 532 (18-19), since Peter is in the same clothes. But according to SPECSM2 28, this scene occurs at night, not in the morning as the caption on this page notes. This segment likely occurs after CW 3-FB and may occur later the same day. As Tony Stark prepares for another press conference, he is joined by Peter Parker, who vows to stand by him. Green trees in Washington, DC. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (17/18p6) 
The same evening as ASM 532 (20). Dagger calls the Resistances attention to a TV on which Stark appears. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (21p1-21p2) ~ CIVIL WAR #2 (19p1) 
The same evening as CW 2 (9-18). Stark begins the press conference and introduces Miriam Sharpe. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (19p2) 
The same evening as CW 2 (9p1). Scott, Emma, Beast, Colossus, and Logan watch the press conference at the Xavier Institute. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (21p3-21p4) 
The same evening as CW 2 (19p2). Spidey, in his classic costume, prepares to go out and join Stark at the press conference. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (19p3-19p4) 
The same evening as ASM 532 (21p3-21p4). Stark introduces Spidey. Sue Richards watches the press conference from the hospital room where Johnny lies in a coma. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (22) 
The same evening as CW 2 (19p3-19p4). Spidey steps up to the podium and says he has an announcement to make. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (20p1-20p4) 
The same evening as ASM 532 (22). Spidey makes a speech and Aunt May, M.J., the Daily Bugle staff, Wasp, Thing, She-Hulk, and Yellowjacket watch him on TV. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (20p5-21p1) ~ THUNDERBOLTS #103 (1p1) ~ AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (1) ~ CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/3  FB (1p1) 
The same evening as CW 2 (20p1-20p4). It is two weeks after CW 1 (7p2-7p4). Spidey unmasks himself and reveals that he is Peter Parker. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (21p2-22) ~ CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/3  FB (1p1) 
The same evening as CW 2 (20-21). Jonah faints and Spidey asks the press if they have any questions. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/3  FB (1p2-2p3, 2p5-3p3) 
The same evening as CW 2 (21-22). Spidey answers reporters questions. 
THUNDERBOLTS #103 (1p2-6p3) 
The same evening as CW:FL 2/3-FB (2-3). It is years after ASM 90 and months after A/TB 2. The Thunderbolts battle and defeat Quicksand in Denver. They catch a televised broadcast of the reporters questions for Spidey. 
CIVIL WAR #3 (1) 
The same evening as TB 103 (1-6). As reporters continue to bombard Peter, Stark joins him and tells him to soak it up. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (2-11) 
The same evening as CW 3 (1). This segment occurs before S-H4 9 and must occur before FF 538 and C&DP 30 (1-9). Jonah (now vertical) and Robbie catch the remainder of Spideys press conference. Jonah vows to make Peter pay for duping him all these years. After the conference, Peter ralphs and tells Stark hed better not regret revealing his identity. As Peter leaves Washington amid protesters, M.J., Aunt May, and Reed Richards call to congratulate him. Sue Richards shows her concern and she and Reed end up sniping. 
THUNDERBOLTS #103 (6p4-11) 
It must be the same evening as ASM 533 (2-11). This segment must occur after IHM:OL 1 (15-20) and before ASM 533 (2-23). The CSA invites the Thunderbolts to Washington, where Iron Man, Yellowjacket, and Mr. Fantastic tell the group that they want the Thunderbolts to hunt down super-villains and recruit them to the cause of registration. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (12-17p1) 
The same night as TB 103 (6-11). Peter is flown back to New York, and when he arrives (at sundown), hes given notice that the Bugle is suing him for $5 million. TV coverage of Spideys revelation from this morning is seen by Flash Thompson, Eddie Brock, Doc Ock, Vulture, and a host of others. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (17p2-19p3) 
The same night as ASM 533 (12-17). At Avengers Tower, Spidey, M.J., and May watch a televised press conference in which Stark announces that the deadline for registration has come and gone. Starting this time tomorrow, anyone on this list [of 137 heroes whose identities he knows] who has not come forward to register, or who gives aid and comfort to those who refuse  will be hunted down, arrested and imprisoned, without exception. Stark says that Spider-Man is on his strike team, much to Peters surprise. 
[BTS] 
The same night as ASM 533 (17-19). Stark probably goes with Reed, Hank, and the T-Bolts from DC to NY in mere moments, using the T-Bolts spatial portals. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (19p4-23) 
The same night as ASM 533 (17-19) and probably the night before CW 3 (2-3). This segment must occur before FF 538. I have the T-Bolts here during the eight hours between pages 11 and 12 of TB 103. As Peter and M.J. go out for air, a Cap supporter attempts to shoot Peter, but Peter webs him. Iron Man arrives (back in a flash from Washington) and Spidey gives him crap until Stark apologizes. Spidey notes that this day started with Stark and is now ending with Stark. Iron Man then leads Spidey into a meeting of the pro-registration heroes, including the active FF, the Thunderbolts, She-Hulk, Doc Samson, Ms. Marvel, Yellowjacket, and Wasp. 
[BTS] 
The night before CW 3 (4-5). The X-Men hold a meeting and decide not to help Stark hunt down anti-registration rebels. 

Sunday, July 3 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (1-5) 
The early morning after ASM 533 (12-23). The first seven pages of CW:FL 2 must occur after the rest of the story. The Daily Bugles headline covers Spideys revelation with the headline, Youre Fired. Ben Urich is hounded by the press as he leaves the Bugle offices, then he encounters Peter in an elevator. Sally Floyd meets Firestar in a bar, and Firestar tells her she quits because of the Registration Act. It is a weekday, since Letterman is on TV. 
THUNDERBOLTS #103 (12-21) 
Early the morning (eight hours) after TB 103 (6-11). The Thunderbolts battle and defeat a trio of college kids whove stolen old Beetle armors in New Jersey. Back at their headquarters, Zemo toasts his team, and he and Melissa check in on the detention quadrant that holds a growing army of renegade villains they already started to capture three weeks ago. These villains include Batroc, Zaran, Boomerang, the U-Foes, the Wrecking Crew, Folding Circle, Quicksand, Pretty Persuasions, Mimic, Scarecrow, and the de-powered Blob. Green grass and trees in New Jersey. 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN v2 #28 
The weekday morning after ASM 533 (19-23). This story must occur before TB 104 (1-19). At 5:45 A.M., Jordan Harrison wakes and as he gets ready for school, he sees on the TV a replay of the press conference at which Spidey unmasked last night. Hes blown away by the revelation that Spidey is his science teacher, Peter Parker. (Its surprising that Jordan hadnt heard about this news earlier, as the press conference surely would have occurred before his bedtime the previous evening, and news travels fast.) The replay is also seen by Sue Richards, who is visiting Johnny in the hospital, and Doc Ock, to whom this is news (not as surprising, as the villain could easily have missed media coverage until now  after having escaped the battle with Cap and company  and his whereabouts would be known to very few if anyone). Jordan takes the subway, where he sees the Bugle headline, Youre Fired! He meets up with his friend Madeline and both witness a battle right in front of their school (Midtown High) between Spidey (in the Iron Spider costume) and the enraged Doc Ock. Jordan stands up to Ock and distracts him, allowing Spidey to administer the coup-de-gras. Presumably after this, Doc Ock is apprehended and handed over to the T-Bolts. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (6-7) 
The same morning as CW:FL 2 (1-5). This segment must occur before S-H4 9. Robbie tells Jonah that Urich encountered Spidey last night and relays a message from Peter that he quits, backdated to before Jonah fired him. Jonah argues with Robbie and calls Peter a betrayer. The new front page headline of the Daily Bugle (perhaps a mockup for the upcoming evening edition) reads, Spiderman  Parker. 
SHE-HULK v4 #9 (1-9) 
It must be the morning after ASM 533 (2-11), since cable news has been running Spideys unmasking for the past ten hours. This story occurs six days after S-H4 9-FB and must occur after CW:FL 2 (6-7). Pug finds video proof that Jens feelings for John Jameson are Starfoxs doing. He burns the footage onto a disk and emerges from the GLK&H archives to find his co-workers looking at the repeated news footage of Spideys unmasking. At the Bugle, Jonah throws a fit when he discovers that Spidey may be awarded amnesty for registering, making him immune to Jonahs lawsuit. As Jonah rants about super heroes and lawyers, he catches live TV coverage of his son Johns Las Vegas wedding to She-Hulk. Others, including Wasp and Doc Samson, catch the news as well. Jonah calls John on his cell phone and gives him crap. She-Hulk is told that the Hulk hasnt been seen since his attack on Vegas. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/3 
One day, shortly after CW:FL 2/3-FB (2-3). In prison, agents show Norman Osborn a tape of Spideys unmasking and Osborn gets angry, saying he broke the rules. An agent asks Osborn if hes prepared to play by a new set of rules. 
CIVIL WAR #3 (2-3) 
Probably the day after CW 3-FB and ASM 533 (19-23). Reed visits TChalla in Wakanda and relays a request from the president that the Panther help hunt down renegade heroes, but TChalla declines. Reed notes that he hasnt checked in with Sue for a day or two (my analysis has him with Sue the previous night). Yellowjacket and the Wasp visit the Sanctum Sanctorum to ask Strange to join them, but Wong reports that Strange has gone into seclusion to fast for forty nights and wouldnt consider supporting Starks plans. Newspapers report the smashing of the Sinister Six by Caps Secret Avengers and Starks promise to tackle super-rebels. 
CIVIL WAR #3 (4-5) 
One day. This segment occurs before NX 28 and thus must occur before NX 25 and CW:X 1 (1-16). It probably occurs before XF3 9. At the Xavier Institute, where a Sentinel stands on duty, Stark asks Emma Frost to help him hunt down anti-registration rebels. Emma declares that the X-Men remain neutral, but as Stark leaves, Bishop approaches him. Stark tells Happy to move forward with the containment as planned, before I go public with the fifty-state initiative. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
SHE-HULK v4 #9 (10-22) 
The same night as S-H4 9 (1-9). Jen notes that the Superhuman Registration Act passed this week, but this may be a reference to the registration deadline, not the Congressional approval. She also notes that she is out there, registering the heroes thatll let me...fighting the ones that wont. As Jen and John prepare to go to Jonahs for dinner, Jen tells John that shes decided to stay She-Hulk 24/7. As they argue about it, Pug leaves a message on her answering machine to meet her in a nightclub. Ditto shows up as She-Hulk to meet Pug to allow Pug to get his feelings out, but Pug decks him when he reveals himself. That evening, Jen and John have dinner with Jonah and Marla. John gets angry and unleashes an old Spider-Slayer on She-Hulk, who trashes it. As Jonah and Jen argue, she tells him that Spidey is not shielded from fraud. When She-Hulk tells Jonah he could sue Spidey for his new Iron Spider costume, Jonah changes his tune about Jen. 

Monday, July 4: Independence Day 
NEW X-MEN v2 #25 
One day. In Dallas, Forge has a setback in his lab. The New X-Men train in the Danger Room by trying to take down Colossus. They fail, and Josh, still angry about the X-Mens inability to save the mutants who were killed on the bus, attacks Peter after the session. Emma kicks Josh off the team. Jay leaves the infirmary to speak to Sooraya. He admits to doing something wrong to try and save everyone and says he intends to fix things. He slips Dust a note with the address of his destination. That night on the Institutes grounds, Laurie tries to talk to the upset Josh and is shot and killed by one of Strykers Purifiers. Stryker notes that his vision can come to pass once Dust is eliminated. Jay shows up at Strykers place and Stryker shows him his destiny, a Nimrod armor. Green grass and trees at Westchester. Waning crescent moon. 
NEW X-MEN v2 #26 
The same night as NX 25. It is supposed to be several years after NX 26-FB (1) and two years after NX 26-FB (2-3), but it may be just the year after. From Dallas, Forge watches a TV news report about the presence of O*N*E and a communications blackout at the Institute, and the arrival of new mutants there; the implication is that it is not long after HOM:DA 1 (32-38). Stryker explains to Jay that hes been using Nimrods projections of future events to identify mutants who need to be killed to ensure a future in which humans triumph over mutants. Scott tells David he needs to stay at the Institute for his own safety. The New X-Men react to Lauries death. Someone dressed as Dust goes to Strykers place, only to be gunned down. Stryker learns that Dusts death doesnt alter future events and he critically shoots Jay. Discovering that Jay has left the grounds of the Institute, the X-Men split into two teams and depart with some of the Sentinels. Stryker and his troops arrive at the Institute and incapacitate the Sentinels still stationed there. Green trees at Westchester. 
NEW X-MEN v2 #27 
The same night as NX 26. Because Scott asks Forge if hes going to attend Ororos wedding, this segment must occur after BP4 16 (10-23). Nimrod goes online and leaves Strykers place to proceed with his primary objective. It is revealed that X-23 (now healed from her gunshot wounds) took Soorayas place and Stryker cant believe that Dust is still alive. In the battle with Strykers troops at the Institute, Dust and X-23 make short work of the attackers, but Quill is killed, Sam and Onyxx are badly injured, Bishop and Beast suffer minor injuries, and Emma is stabbed in her left shoulder. Josh uses his power to kill Stryker. In doing so, Josh becomes catatonic and his skin changes from gold to black. In the aftermath, Emma, her left arm in a sling, kicks herself for another student death. From his Dallas headquarters, Forge checks in with Scott and says hell be at the Institute with something hell likein another week; that something is probably the battle vehicle seen in CW:X 1 (17-22). After signing off, Forge is found by Nimrod, for whom finding the maker is his primary objective. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
NEW X-MEN v2 #28 
The same night as NX 27; its unlikely that twenty-two hours pass between NX 27 and 28 as Emma notes. Official super heroes Iron Man and Ms. Marvel are called to help police deal with the aftermath of the carnage at Strykers place. There they find Jays corpse and his partially written message of Nimr. Carol decides to go to the Xavier Institute to report Jays death. At the Institute, O*N*E removes Strykers corpse and Beast comments on the Sentinels ineffectiveness against him as well as Vulcan and Apocalypse. Gail Collins arrives to claim her deceased daughter, and Surge notes that forty-five of us are now dead. Carol arrives and the New X-Men learn of Jays fate as they eavesdrop on Carols meeting with Scott. Emma enters the room and reveals that Carol is also here to discuss the Registration Act. Emma remarks that it would appear the no I gave Tony Stark didnt convince Ms. Marvel. She rebukes Carol by showing her recent scenes of mutant tragedy. Scott escorts Carol out. The New X-Men discuss what they overhead about the energy trail found at Strykers and David concludes that it was Nimrod. In Dallas, Nimrod tells Forge to help him or he will teleport to Africa and kill Ororo. 

Tuesday, July 5 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/2 
One day, long enough after CW:FL 1/2 for Robbie to recover and grow back some hair. This story must occur after CW 2 (8p4), because according to CW:FL 3/2, Robbie was unconscious when the registration deadline passed. A government lawyer visits Robbie Baldwin at an undisclosed location where Robbie has been for more than three days. The lawyer tells him that the Superhuman Registration Act  which passed in both Congress [meaning the House] and the Senate three days ago  was signed into law today by the president. (The law likely includes a deadline for registration that may be shortly after this.) The lawyer gives Robbie one chance to avoid punishment for Stamford by registering and agreeing to work for SHIELD in subduing unregistered super-humans. Robbie refuses because he insists he did nothing wrong. He is beaten and taken to a maximum security penitentiary, where he is handed over to the mercy of other prisoners who know his identity. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #538 
One day. This story must occur after FOUR 30, CW 2 (8p4), and ASM 533 (19-23), and must occur before CW 3 (6-21). The FF visit the comatose Johnny in the hospital. There, Reed and Sue get into an argument about Reeds helping Stark round up heroes. Ben keeps vigil over Johnny, then Sue returns and talks to him about her feelings about registration. Ben sees a live TV news report about a battle on Yancy Street between pro- and anti-registration heroes. Ben rushes there and sees Ms. Marvel fighting Silverclaw. Carol asks for Bens help in apprehending Silverclaw, but Ben walks away. Ben then talks to Yancy Streeters who protest the Registration Act. They tell him that he has to choose sides. Meanwhile, the Mad Thinker and the Puppet Master plan to hit a security van carrying heroes to prison tomorrow at ten. In Oklahoma, Don Blake arrives, grabs Thors hammer, and flies off with it. Green trees in New York. Waning crescent moon. 

Wednesday, July 6 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #3/2 (1-7) 
Probably the day after CW:FL 2/2. She-Hulk visits her client, Robbie Baldwin, in jail and reviews his case with him. Jen encourages Robbie to plead criminal negligence, but Robbie refuses. Hes led back to his cell, where he is harassed by guards and fellow inmates. 
X-FACTOR v3 #8 
One day. This story occurs after ASM 531 (21-22). XF3 7-FB is referred to as having occurred the other day, but it may have been some time since Scotts visit. X-Factor wonders about Scotts seeming to know Layla and the X-Mens warning about Pietro possibly showing up. Siryn reads the Bugle and talks about Jonahs editorials in favor of the Super Hero Registration Act. Jamie believes the X-Men know something about the Decimation. A duplicate of Jamies, a SHIELD agent for some time, drops by to register X-Factor. Jamies friend Malcom Modern states that the DNA samples from the Tryps are identical. Spider-Man (in version 2.0 of his Iron Spider costume) nabs a crook, then he talks to Siryn about the Registration Act. Spidey mentions the Stamford incident. Siryn entrances Spidey into spilling the beans about the Decimation and Theresa is convinced the X-Men have been covering it up. Rictor and M register, and Layla encounters some unfortunate mutants to whom Pietro has restored their power. As X-Factor converge back on their headquarters, Pietro arrives. 
X-FACTOR v3 #9 
The same day as XF3 8. This story probably occurs after CW 3 (4-5) and must occur before CW:X 1 (1-16). X-Factor and Pietro argue, and Pietro claims he wants to help deal with the problems hes caused. Not knowing what to do, Madrox leaves and encounters Layla, who admits that she knew about the Decimation. She points him toward an encounter with Aegis, who is running from SHIELD forces for failure to comply with the Superhuman Registration Act. Madrox uses his duplicates to help Aegis escape. Rictor calls the X-Men to let them know that Pietro is with X-Factor. When the Astonishing team (Scott, Logan, Kitty, Peter, and Hank) arrive, X-Factor take them to task about not being honest with them about the Decimation. Madrox states that he will call a press conference to announce that X-Factor is opposed to the Registration Act and will help people in avoiding the government. When he asks the X-Men for their support, Scott answers that they cant because theyve already agreed to be neutral. Madrox orders the X-Men to leave, and Scott tells him hes responsible for keeping Pietro in Mutant Town. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #3 
One night. In a secret location, Sally Floyd interviews a group of super-beings who refuse to register. They include Solo, Typeface, and Battlestar. At the Baxter Building, Ben Urich interviews Reed Richards, who notes that its been a difficult week. Reed and Urich voice different views about registration. On her way back from her interview, Sally encounters a battle between the anti-registration Thunderclap and pro-registration Bantam. Things get out of hand and Bantam is killed by mistake. 

Thursday, July 7 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #3/2 (8-9) 
Perhaps the day after CW:FL 3/2 (1-7). She-Hulk comes to Robbie with an offer from the governor to have Robbie register as a costumed hero and agree to three years community service. Robbie refuses, saying it would amount to an admission of guilt. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #3/3  FB 
One evening. Karen Mason purchases a tetra at an aquarium store. Store owners Joe and his wife close the store and go home, where they see TV news coverage of beached whales. Joe goes into the bathroom, injects himself with a serum and turns into a blue-skinned Atlantean. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #3/3 
The same night as CW:FL 3/3. Police investigate an explosion at the fish store and interview Karen Mason. 
CIVIL WAR #3 (6-21) 
One night. This segment must occur before C&DP 30 (16-22) and after FF 538. An unattended Johnny Storm awakens from his coma. Cap, Hercules, Goliath, and the new Daredevil assume new identities, and Foster disapproves of his new name. As they sit in a diner, they get a distress call from a petrochemical plant on fire. The quartet join Cable, Cage, Falcon, Cloak, Dagger, and the Young Avengers at the plant, only to discover that its a Stark facility  its a trap, the containment that Stark noted. Iron Man, She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel, Wonder Man, Doc Samson, Mr. Fantastic, Thing, Invisible Woman, Spidey, Yellowjacket, Wasp, Black Widow, Tigra, and the Thunderbolts attack and take out Cloak and Wiccan. Iron Man gives Cap one last chance for amnesty, but Cap tricks Stark and scrambles his armor with some SHIELD tech from Fury. A battle ensues as Maria Hill and SHIELD surround the perimeter with cape-killer units. Then a bolt of lighting strikes and Thor arrives. 

Friday, July 8 
THUNDERBOLTS #104 (1-19) 
One day, weeks after the Beetle armors were stolen. This story must occur after SPECSM2 28. Three teams of Thunderbolts round up more renegade villains simultaneously  Mach IV and the Beetles apprehend Eel and Porcupine; Songbird, Atlas, and Smuggler nab Mongoose; and Blizzard, Fixer, Joystick, and Quicksand defeat the U-Foes. Dallas and Gyrich monitor the teams work and present their plans for the T-Bolts to Washington decision makers. Zemo drops in on Reed Richards, Yellowjacket, and Radioactive Man to check on their progress with the construction of a new prison facility for arrested super-heroes. Swordsman trains new super-villain recruits Ox, Cobra, and Unicorn in new Mexico and has a skirmish with the new Whiplash and Blacklash. The T-Bolts arrive, and before a vast gathering of villains, Doc Ock questions Zemo. 
THUNDERBOLTS #104 (20-21) 
One night. Zemo teleports to the underground headquarters of the Resistance, where he meets Cap, Falcon (without goatee), and Hercules. Zemo offers them a deal to gain freedom and redemption at such a time that the government imprisons them. 

Saturday, July 9 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #30 (1-9) 
One day, probably just after dawn CST. This segment occurs after THING2 8 and ASM 533 (2-11) and eleven hours before C&DP 30 (10-). Deadpool attacks the Great Lakes Champions at their Milwaukee headquarters to force them to register, not realizing that theyve already done so. After the GLC defeat Wade, CSA Agent Hafner arrives to offer Wade a job as government bounty hunter to track down non-registrants and bring them to justice. 
[Perhaps TChallas and Ororos wedding] 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #30 (10-15) 
Probably the same night (eleven hours later) as C&DP 30 (1-9). After having been jetted to Washington to be deputized, Wade is back at his place in New York preparing to go hunting when Nathan shows up. Cable discovers the governments plan to use superhuman operatives to track down superhuman renegades, and Wade assumes Nathan is above the whole matter. Armed with the new intel, Nathan meets with Cap and offers him and his colleagues asylum in Providence. Nathan warns Cap about the danger of being discovered and visually projects the new secret identities created for Cap, Herc, Goliath, and the new Daredevil. Nathan claims hes trying to prevent a long-term totalitarian future, but Cap stands his ground and tells Nathan, we could use you. Cable replies, Im trying to keep my involvement low-profile, but...Ill do what I can when I can and teleports away. The eavesdropping Deadpool, upon discovering the new DDs new secret identity, decides to go to Long Island to claim his first target. 

Sunday, July 10 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #30 (16-22) 
The morning after C&DP 30 (10-15). This segment must occur after CW 3 (6-21). Wade cases out the new DD on Long Island and follows him to a warehouse in Manhattan, only to discover that its a trap. The new Daredevil ambushes him. As they fight, the new DD says, I thought Cable was on our side, and Deadpool recognizes the new DDs fighting style. He is about to identify him when Cap, Herc, Goliath, and the Young Avengers appear. Wade mocks Fosters new name and Foster responds, See. I told you. Green grass and trees on Long Island. 

Monday, July 11 
CIVIL WAR: X-MEN #1 (1-16) 
One rainy night. This segment must occur after CW 3 (4-5) and XF3 9. Val Cooper is interviewed on TV about the civil rights of the mutants kept at the Xavier Institute. The 198 stage a riot as a diversion for an assault on the Institute by Domino and Shatterstar. Bishop joins O*N*E troops and Sentinels in battling the intruders and the rioting mutants. A stealth jet arrives to spirit the 198 away, then the X-Men (Scott, Warren, Hank, Bobby, Kitty, and Lockheed) join the battle. To avoid fatalities, Cyclops ends up letting the jet go with more than half of the internees aboard. Bishop, considering it important for mutants to police themselves, argues with Scott about the situation. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 

Tuesday, July 12 
[BTS] 
The morning prior to CW:X 1 (17-22). Stark has breakfast with the Secretary of Defense. 
CIVIL WAR: X-MEN #1 (17-22) 
The day after CW:X 1 (1-16). It is at least a week after NX 27. Iron Man meets with Bishop, Val Cooper, and Lazer about the attack on the Institute. Thinking it important for mutants not to be seen as menaces, Stark calls for a task force of mutants and Sentinels led by Bishop to bring in the renegade 198. Bishop already has recruited Micromax and Sabra for the team. Lazer futilely objects, believing that mutants will always side with their own kind. Around dusk, the original X-Men (Scott, Hank, Bobby, and Warren) don new black leathers and, with the Sentinels still getting patched up after the kicking they got last night, they leave the Institute in a battle vehicle made for them by Forge (which may be the item to which Forge refers in NX 27). They have chosen a side in the battle and are sworn to protect the renegade mutants from O*N*E. After they leave Emma behind, she is confronted by a new Sentinel. Green grass and trees at Westchester.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:19 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Just an initial observation: You can't have UNCANNY X-MEN #475-476 taking place before CIVIL WAR, because Marvel Girl appears in CIVIL WAR #1, and she leaves Earth in UNCANNY #476.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:02 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
Just an initial observation: You can't have UNCANNY X-MEN #475-476 taking place before CIVIL WAR, because Marvel Girl appears in CIVIL WAR #1, and she leaves Earth in UNCANNY #476. 


Good point, Paul. I was trying to get Xavier off-planet before the kickoff of CW (as he's nowhere to be found), but that doesn't work with Rachel being around for the Stamford incident and again shortly thereafter in CW 1. 

As I see it, we have two possibilities: 
Placing the Stamford incident and the few days after during the "week" between pages 24 and 25 of X:DG 6. The new sequence would be: 
X:DG 6 (1-24) 
CW 1 
X:DG 6 (25-28) 
X 188-FB (1-3) 
UX 475-FB (3-5) 
UX 475-FB (9-11) 
UX 475-FB (14-15) 
X 188-FB (4-21) 
X 188 
UX 475 
UX 476-FB 
UX 476 
That sequence from X:DG 6 (25-28) through UX 476 might easily fit between what I'm calling June 17 and June 21. As is noted currently, W3 42 (20-22)-43 would happen after this stretch (June 30-July 1), NX 25-28 after that (July 4), XF3 8-9 after that (July 6), and CW:X 1 after that (July 12). 

OR, we could place the entirety of X:DG after the Stamford incident, which would explain the absence of Xavier in CW and would result in the following sequence: 
CW 1 
X:DG 1 
X:DG 2 
X:DG 3 
X:DG 5-FB-FB 
X:DG 4 
X:DG 5 
X:DG 6 (1-24) 
XF3 7-FB 
XF3 7 
Everything from X:DG 1 through XF3 7 would occur in a span of four days, say from June 17 through June 20. Then we pick up with X:DG 6 (25-28) the following week, after Logan's had a chance to appear in BP4 17 (16-22) on June 24... 
X:DG 6 (25-28) 
X 188-FB (1-3) 
UX 475-FB (3-5) 
UX 475-FB (9-11) 
UX 475-FB (14-15) 
X 188-FB (4-21) 
X 188 
UX 475 
UX 476-FB 
UX 476 
This sequence may occur, say, from June 25 through June 29. Then Scott and Emma appear in W3 42 (20-22) after this (June 30), and we proceed along as above with W3 43, NX 25-28, XF3 8-9, and CW:X 1. 

How do these options look?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:26 am    
By jephyork
Director

Is Xavier NOTABLY absent in Civil War, or is he just ... not around? Like, does anybody say "I wish Xavier was here"? 

Seems to me we're making it more complex than it needs to be. Maybe he's in the basement trying to contact the Shi'Ar. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:39 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Maybe he's in the basement trying to contact the Shi'Ar 
<<<

Or kicking back beers with Logan....

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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:53 pm    
By Hotcharokey

Or buffing his head...

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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Is Xavier NOTABLY absent in Civil War, or is he just ... not around?  
<<<

Just not around. Of course, Xavier isn't really even much of a player in the whole Institute-as-sanctuary/concentration camp issue in the X-titles. A missed opportunity, IMHO. If he isn't factoring much into that plot string, his absence in CW isn't particularly glaring. 

So what do folks think? CW 1 in the week between pages of X:DG 6, or CW 1 before X:DG 1? It doesn't appear to be "wait and see" situation, as we seem to have progressed far enough past CW 1 in the myriad tie-in titles. Of course, an as-yet-unpublished temporal reference to X:DG in an upcoming comic might provide another clue, but I wouldn't count on it.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:50 pm    
By JimC

I'm casting my vote: during issue 6

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Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:15 pm    
By Col_Fury

I'm also going to say option 1. Putting all of Deadly Genesis after the Stamford Incident seems... I don't know. Eh. 

Option 1 feels better. 

And the good news is, this weeks ASM 534 supports the placement of C&DP 30. Things seem to be working out fairly well so far... 

And, this weeks DD 87 has a big reveal to help us identify who the Daredevil is in Civil War. Yay! 

But what about the Wedding of the Century in Black Panther 18? There's a few guests present(one in particular) that factor into the placement of Deadly Genesis. It's not really a problem, but it does nail a few things down. Initially, I would put Black Panther 18 after Deadly Genesis, and before the FlashBacks in Uncanny 475.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:38 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Is there any reason why DEADLY GENESIS can't simply take place before CIVIL WAR? I don't particularly want to splice appearances into the middle of X:DG 6 unless there's a compelling reason for it. Cyclops has to visit Siryn during that gap to tell her about the funeral, but I don't see what we're gaining by splicing other appearances into the middle of an issue.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:13 am    
By Jason Doty

Not to mention that Professor X is also in the X-Men arc prior to leaving in the Uncanny arc. So, this break will continue to grow.

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:22 am    
By Somebody

Uh-oh. When is Cable meant to turn up in X-Men again? (with Bachalo ignoring the arm design and his powers being in his costume, oc...)

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:58 am    
By JD

Actually, Xavier is only in X-MEN #188. In #189, he's already left and Mystique is impersonating him for public appearances.

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:06 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

If the concern is simply that X:DG 6 ends with Cyclops telling Professor X to get out of the Mansion, then I don't think that's really a problem. Cyclops can't make him leave - Xavier owns the building - and the implication of UX 475-476 and X 188 is that Xavier has simply refused to comply.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:12 pm    
By Jason Doty

I didn't get a chance to read the X-Men no.189 yet and just "saw" Professor X. 

On another note, would'nt Polaris have to appear in X:DG before she leaves in X-Men no.187?

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:42 pm    
By Somebody

The main sequence, including her cameos, needs to be before she left the Mansion post-Decimation, since she appears in her purple Asamanga/Larroca costume. And then leaves again the same night she regains consciousness in X187 (and makes a point of doing so on the basis that she'd get sucked back in to X-stuff, with her leaving then confirmed by Rogue/Pulse). 

And Quicksilver's there at the funeral scene, in the same panel, and we're already ignoring that out of necessity. And Siryn's badly out-of-character as established by XF.... 

 

And the :D smiley really needs changed to :-D...

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:06 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
And the :D smiley really needs changed to :-D... 
<<<

That would mess up the posts of everyone else who's used the smiley legitimately. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:21 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
The main sequence, including her cameos, needs to be before she left the Mansion post-Decimation, since she appears in her purple Asamanga/Larroca costume. 
<<<

Well, it can't, because that Sentinel pilot, Briggs, is killed in X:DG but shows up in "Blood of Apocalypse". To me that outweighs what clothes she happens to be wearing. 

Without having read any of the books in question, and just going by what I've heard here -- it seems to me that we've really only got one slot to put X:DG into -- during X #187, between Lorna regaining consciousness and her leaving again. Is that feasible? 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Quicksilver's there at the funeral scene, in the same panel, and we're already ignoring that out of necessity. 
<<<

I'm not. I'd like to make it work. What's the continuity conundrum there exactly? 

And why are you hiding a non-spoilery phrase by coloring it the same color as the background? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:43 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The X-Men were hunting Quicksilver down in the X-FACTOR Civil War crossover last week. They'd have arrested him on sight if he'd shown up for the funeral - leaving aside the question of how he could have found out it was happening.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:46 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
The main sequence, including her cameos, needs to be before she left the Mansion post-Decimation, since she appears in her purple Asamanga/Larroca costume. 
<<<

Well, it can't, because that Sentinel pilot, Briggs, is killed in XDG but shows up in "Blood of Apocalypse". To me that outweighs what clothes she happens to be wearing. 

Without having read any of the books in question, and just going by what I've heard here -- it seems to me that we've really only got one slot to put XDG into -- during X #187, between Lorna regaining consciousness and her leaving again. Is that feasible? 
<<<

Not in the slightest. She wakes and leaves the same night, talking about how, if she doesn't leave that very night, she'll "end up staying forever", and Rogue and Pulse are talking about her as having left and wondering exactly where she's going in the next scene. There's no gap to work with. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Quicksilver's there at the funeral scene, in the same panel, and we're already ignoring that out of necessity. 
<<<

I'm not. I'd like to make it work. What's the continuity conundrum there exactly? 
<<<

What Paul O said. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And why are you hiding a non-spoilery phrase by coloring it the same color as the background? 
<<<

Because I felt the need to moan, but it's not a chronology point as such (it's a discontinuity point, in the sense that a glass suddenly changing levels during a scene because retakes are being stitched together out of order is a discontinuity point, but it's not an MCP-style discontinuity).

Last edited by Somebody on Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:51 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:49 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The X-Men were hunting Quicksilver down in the X-FACTOR Civil War crossover last week. They'd have arrested him on sight if he'd shown up for the funeral - leaving aside the question of how he could have found out it was happening. 
<<<

Two potentially extremely easy workarounds come to mind: 

1) The X-Men weren't hunting him at the time of X:DG. (Like I said, I haven't read the books in question -- have they been hunting him ever since M-Day? Or just since he stole the Terrigen Mists?) 

2) They didn't know he was there. The guy has time-travel powers now -- he could have appeared for just that one panel, and then vanished before anyone noticed him. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:54 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The X-Men were hunting Quicksilver down in the X-FACTOR Civil War crossover last week. They'd have arrested him on sight if he'd shown up for the funeral - leaving aside the question of how he could have found out it was happening. 
<<<

Two potentially extremely easy workarounds come to mind: 

1) The X-Men weren't hunting him at the time of XDG. (Like I said, I haven't read the books in question -- have they been hunting him ever since M-Day? Or just since he stole the Terrigen Mists?) 
<<<

M-Day, as a result of his part in causing House of M/the Decimation. I'm not even sure they know about the Mists. 

Not sure how hard they were looking, but if he turned up to their door, y'know... 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
2) They didn't know he was there. The guy has time-travel powers now -- he could have appeared for just that one panel, and then vanished before anyone noticed him. 
<<<

But he'd still need to get on the grounds in the first place - he's a limited-future-and-back-only time-traveller, not a teleporter.

Last edited by Somebody on Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:55 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
She wakes and leaves the same night, talking about how, if she doesn't leave that very night, she'll "end up staying forever" ... There's no gap to work with. 
<<<

Well, how long does X:DG take to occur? And are you saying there's *literally* no gap? She wakes up, then in the middle of the same sentence she walks out the front door? There's almost always a gap to exploit. 

On another tack -- how explicit is Briggs' appearance in "BoA"? Or, put another way, what's *your* preferred solution? 

-Jeph! 
(By the way, if the :D smiley is screwing you up, just click the "disable smilies" box when you post ... or type it out as X: DG.)

Last edited by jephyork on Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:57 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
he'd still need to get on the grounds in the first place 
<<<

True, but it's not like the Sentinels are very effective at keeping the rest of the X-Men in or out. He could have snuck onto the grounds in the middle of the night, jumped ahead to the funeral, then jumped back and snuck out. 

I don't see why we have to be all hardline and *ignore* Quicksilver's appearance, when there are a bunch of ways to rationalize it off. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:04 pm    
By Jason Doty

Maybe, it's not Quicksilver, but the Northstar II from the past now that he's stuck in the future from Alpha Flight vol.3 and he's grieving because another male mutant died. I figure he needs another appearance to cement his place in the MCP. 

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:20 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
She wakes and leaves the same night, talking about how, if she doesn't leave that very night, she'll "end up staying forever" ... There's no gap to work with. 
<<<

Well, how long does X:DG take to occur? And are you saying there's *literally* no gap? She wakes up, then in the middle of the same sentence she walks out the front door? There's almost always a gap to exploit. 
<<<

This is the point where the error-riddled colouring of this issue (amongst the umpteen other faults, Emma frost is coloured as [Black] Gambit in one panel) confuses matters. It looks to me like she's drawn as dressed and wearing an overcoat, that goes down to mid-calf, but she's coloured as if she's still just come out of the bed, where she was wearing a short bright purple gown/nightshirt thing that just kept her decent and no shoes. 

Ignoring the colouring, Iceman and Beast are trying to stop her leaving, they pass Havok, she announces to him that she's leaving tonight or she'll never get to leave etc, and walks away from the Mansion. She's not carrying a bag, but then, she was effectively kicked out with her bags before and such shouldn't have any clothes or personal effects in the Mansion to take. 

In the next panel, Rogue and Pulse are looking over the Mansion fence speculating where she's going, and Pulse [correctly] predict Egypt. The conversation then continues, referring to their fight with Gambit and Sunfire as "today". 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
On another tack -- how explicit is Briggs' appearance in "BoA"? Or, put another way, what's *your* preferred solution? 
<<<

He's named but not clearly shown. And we know now that the M-Day Sentinels never reappear after being destroyed in BoA - they're briefly replaced by the two experimental Sentinels at the end of BoA, and their "proper" replacements are shown in CW:XM 

I would just say that Lexington was used to Briggs being the one to disobey orders, and thus shouted "BRIGGS!" at the hapless replacement SS1 member out of habit. Then stuff it, painfully, between X179 and X180. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
he'd still need to get on the grounds in the first place 
<<<

True, but it's not like the Sentinels are very effective at keeping the rest of the X-Men in or out. He could have snuck onto the grounds in the middle of the night, jumped ahead to the funeral, then jumped back and snuck out. 
<<<

This is the point where I want to throw my hands up and shout "we're talking about Pietro flipping Maximoff here!". But I won't :) I'll just ask, does that scenario or anything like it sound vaguely plausible without involving mind control? I'd go with Jason's joke about AFv3-Northstar.

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:25 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
And we know now that the M-Day Sentinels never reappear after being destroyed in BoA 
<<<

No, that's not right. There was one in X-MEN #188, for example. And it played a part in the plot.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:37 pm    
By Somebody

Should have guessed. I'm avoiding that one over the art. One of these days I'll learn... 

OTOH, something I was going to edit in, but since I'm replying now... in UX475, Lorna doesn't know Prof X is walking again until she sees him in the Blackbird, and he says yes, and other things have changed in her absence. Implying she'd left before the events of DG5-6, at least.

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:40 pm
By Alpha Trion

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Saturday, July 2 
CIVIL WAR #2 (20p5-21p1) ~ THUNDERBOLTS #103 (1p1) ~ AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (1) ~ CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/3  FB (1p1) 
The same evening as CW 2 (20p1-20p4). It is two weeks after CW 1 (7p2-7p4). Spidey unmasks himself and reveals that he is Peter Parker. 

Wednesday, July 6 
X-FACTOR v3 #8 
<<<

I don't think that works. In X-Factor 8 a crook tells Spider-Man he can't wait until heroes "have to come clean with their IDs" and Siryn is surprised when Spidey defends the Registration Act.

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Good point. That leaves a pretty specific point in time for XF3 8 to occur, and I'll work with that as I develop the next edition of the chronology, which will include this week's issues. Thanks, Alpha.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:38 pm    
By Jason Doty

I think well have to keep pushing this X-Men and Uncanny arc foward because Professor X also appeared in the Black Panther Civil War tie-in and that will also fall between X: DG and those two arcs.

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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:12 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
are you saying there's *literally* no gap? She wakes up, then in the middle of the same sentence she walks out the front door? There's almost always a gap to exploit. 
<<<

This is the point where the error-riddled colouring of this issue...confuses matters. It looks to me like she's drawn as dressed and wearing an overcoat, that goes down to mid-calf, but she's coloured as if she's still just come out of the bed, where she was wearing a short bright purple gown/nightshirt thing that just kept her decent and no shoes. 
<<<

So what you're saying is, there's a gap. :-D 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
she announces to him that she's leaving tonight or she'll never get to leave etc, and walks away from the Mansion. ... In the next panel, Rogue and Pulse are looking over the Mansion fence speculating where she's going, and Pulse [correctly] predict Egypt. The conversation then continues, referring to their fight with Gambit and Sunfire as "today". 
<<<

Interesting. So how long does X:DG #1-4 take to occur? 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
I would just say that Lexington was used to Briggs being the one to disobey orders, and thus shouted "BRIGGS!" at the hapless replacement SS1 member out of habit. Then stuff it, painfully, between X179 and X180. 
<<<

Personally, now that we know that the M-Day-style Sentinels DID survive past X #186 -- I'd prefer to place X:DG in-between panels of X #187. Like your suggested placement, this solution is also "painful" -- but at least has the advantage of acknowledging the existence of Briggs, who is named on-panel. 

Generally, I feel that if characters are acknowledged to appear in an issue, pretending that they don't actually appear in the issue, just to get a nicer chronological placement, is the absolute last resort. 

See also Quicksilver in X:DG #6. 

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
it's not like the Sentinels are very effective at keeping the rest of the X-Men in or out. He could have snuck onto the grounds in the middle of the night, jumped ahead to the funeral, then jumped back and snuck out. 
<<<

This is the point where I want to throw my hands up and shout "we're talking about Pietro flipping Maximoff here!". But I won't :) I'll just ask, does that scenario or anything like it sound vaguely plausible without involving mind control? 
<<<

I'm not exactly sure how mind-control would make my scenario MORE plausible. That said, all I'm saying is: there's Quicksilver in X:DG #6. We can either ignore his appearance because he's not "supposed" to be there ... see above for my feelings on that ... or we can acknowledge that for some reason he was there, and even though we ourselves don't know the exact details of how that occured, it's NOT completely outside the bounds of reason that he could be there -- so we should list him as appearing in the MCP. 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
in UX475, Lorna doesn't know Prof X is walking again until she sees him in the Blackbird, and he says yes, and other things have changed in her absence. Implying she'd left before the events of DG5-6, at least. 
<<<

I'm not sure in which X:DG issue Lorna was last seen, nor where a suitable gap occurs in the story, but I'd like to see events sequenced this way: 

X #181-186. Briggs appears. 
X #187 until Lorna recovers. 
X:DG #1 to Lorna's last appearance, break at first gap, for minimum time passage. Hopefully all one day. 
Rest of X #187. Hopefully still same day as X #186. 
X:DG - end of gap to #6. 
UX #475 

Yes? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:06 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Just getting caught up with the X:DG conversation of this thread. Here's what I have, FWIW. I'm not sure how this squares with what's been said, but here goes: 


X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #1 (1) 
One day during the week after HOM 8 (11-19). As a O*N*E Sentinel stands vigil at the Institute, Beast wonders where all the mutant energy went on M-Day. 

X-MEN v2 #180 (12-22) 
The day after X 180 (6-11). This segment occurs after C&DP 27. A group of Sapien League thugs come looking for Alex and Lorna, but Alex dispatches them. That night, the defeated thugs call the Leper Queen, who decides to come as quickly as she can. Aboard Gazers spacecraft, Torso goes silent. Alex and Lorna witness something streak down from the sky and at the site of the crash they discover the creature Lorna saw in space  Doop. 

X-MEN v2 #180 (6-11) 
One day, three weeks, after X 180 (1-5). Gazer and Torso fly through a solar storm while in orbit around earth. After spending time in Nebraska and Acapulco, Havok and Polaris try to adopt a cover as they spend time in Puerto Benito. 

X-MEN v2 #180 (12-22) 
The day after X 180 (6-11). This segment occurs after C&DP 27. A group of Sapien League thugs come looking for Alex and Lorna, but Alex dispatches them. That night, the defeated thugs call the Leper Queen, who decides to come as quickly as she can. Aboard Gazers spacecraft, Torso goes silent. Alex and Lorna witness something streak down from the sky and at the site of the crash they discover the creature Lorna saw in space  Doop. 
X-MEN: APOCALYPSE/DRACULA #1 
It must be the same day as X 180 (12-22). It is weeks after C&DP 27 (12-20). Ozymandas enters an Egyptian pyramid by using a tattoo of the Akkaba symbol to activate a reciprocal symbol on a trapdoor. He looks at Apocalypse in his crysalis chamber (visibly whole and in costume, unlike the Necropocalypse of C&DP 27). He then starts thinking about how this time Apocalypse will rise to save rather than test mutantkind. 
X-MEN: APOCALYPSE/DRACULA #2 
The same day as X:A/D 1. With Apocalypses chamber in the background, Ozymandas looks over some carvings he has made of tales hed heard, involving vampires arising as a result of the Egyptian god Set. 
X-MEN: APOCALYPSE/DRACULA #3 
The same day as X:A/D 2. Ozymandas looks over carvings representing past events and begins to carve some more. 
X-MEN: APOCALYPSE/DRACULA #4 
The same day as X:A/D 3. Ozymandas, looking over Apocalypses crysalis chamber, finishes relating the story, noting how Apocalypse had learned from his encounter with Dracula how his blood was power in and of itself, thinks how it was time for Apocalypse to rise on his terms, and walks off. Apocalypse then wakes. 
X-MEN v2 #181 
The same night as X 180 (12-22) and X:A/D 4. It is weeks before X 187 (5-23). The plummet in global mutant activity resulting from M-Day awakens Apocalypse from his slumber in Akaba. Gazer leaves his space vehicle. In Costa Rica, Alex and Lorna have an encounter with Doop and discover a large sphinx-like monument to Apocalypse. The Leper Queen tells her back-story to a follower who she then has to kill. She attacks Lorna and Alex reacts by blasting Doop, who he believes to be the attacker. The shredded Doop seizes Lorna and the Leper Queen and flies away with them. At the Xavier Institute, Mystique introduces Pulse to the X-Men and announces her intention to join the team and hook Rogue up with Pulse. Remy has a cow, but Scott affirms that shes been given probationary status by team vote. Full moon. 
X-MEN v2 #185/2 
The same night as X 181. As the Leper Queen struggles in chains aboard Apocalypses sphinx, Apocalypse begins transforming the captive Polaris into the horseman Pestilence. 
X-MEN v2 #182 (1-12) 
The same night as X 181. Apocalypse transports Gazer from space to his sphinx temple, where he pits Gazer against archaeologist Dr. Foster in a battle to the death for the mantle of the horseman War. Unbeknownst to Apocalypse, Ozymandias kills Foster so that Gazer can become War. Apocalypse sends his horseman Pestilence to a World Health Organization lab to ingest samples of deadly diseases. 

X-MEN v2 #182 (13-19) 
Probably the day after X 182 (1-12). After disappearing in ROGUE3 12, the crippled (but alive) Sunfire recuperates in a facility in Aspen. Apocalypse appears and offers to restore him. As Pulse and Rogue talk outside the Institute (where Sentinels are standing guard), Mystique and Gambit talk about Rogue while they spar in a boxing ring inside. Apocalypse prepares Gazer to become War. Snow in Aspen and green grass and trees at Westchester. 
X-MEN v2 #182/2 
Probably the same day as X 182 (13-19). Gazers transformation into War continues. Ozymandias retrieves the shackled Sunfire, but Shiro, having second thoughts, decks Ozymandias and tries to escape Apocalypses sphinx. 
X-MEN v2 #183/2 
The same day as X 182/2. Sunfire goes back to free Gazer, but Gazer turns on him and Shiro is apprehended by Apocalypse. 
X-MEN v2 #182 (20-22) 
One day. Alex returns to the Institute and reports that Lorna may be dead. Just then, Apocalypses sphinx appears above the Institute. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
X-MEN v2 #183 
The same day as X 182 (20-22). Shan was a teacher at the Institute weeks ago. Apocalypse implores the mutants to join his cause, then releases Famine, who makes everyone feel starved. Apocalypse entices the crowd with an elixir that will stop their hunger. Some mutants are drawn to Apocalypse, as are the Sentinel Squad, all but one of whom abandon their posts. Apocalypse sends War out to fight the last Sentinel. As the X-Men join the fray, Gambit steals aboard the sphinx, meets Apocalypse and drinks his elixir to join his cause. 
X-MEN v2 #184/2 
The same day as X 183. Gambit explains his motives to Apocalypse and undergoes his transformation into a Horseman. 
X-MEN v2 #184 
The same day as X 184/2. Some of the 198 rejoice over the fallen Sentinels. Havok takes out Famine, who the X-Men discover to be Shiro. When Ozymandias questions Apocalypses reluctance to release Pestilence, Apocalypse lashes out at him. Ozymandias tries to enlist War to rebel against Apocalypse, but War betrays Ozymandias. Mystique tells the X-Men that Pulse can take down Apocalypse, but Pulse is afraid. Ozymandias sneaks into the Institute and offers to help them fight Apocalypse, who Ozy believes is insane. With Ozys help, some of the X-Men steal into the sphinx and confront Apocalypse. With Scalphunter, Skids, and Fever Pitch at his side, Apocalypse unveils his newest Horseman  Gambit as Death. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
X-MEN v2 #185 (1-18) 
The same day as X 184. Some X-Men battle Apocalypse and Death aboard the sphinx and the antidote to Pestilences plague is inadvertently destroyed in the melee. War breaks into the Institute to free Famine, but hes driven away by Emma, Scott, and a revived Shiro, who then collapses. The X-Men are forced to retreat from Apocalypses departing sphinx, which then heads to the U.N. Apocalypse smashes in and demands that the U.N. cull the human population to 10% of its current size to redress the human/mutant balance of power. Apocalypse gives the U.N. one week to comply before he unleashes Pestilence to destroy all humankind. Green trees. 

X-MEN v2 #185 (19-21) 
One day, shortly after X 185 (1-18). Val invites Scott and Alex to the O*N*E Sentinel base in New Mexico, where she tells the brothers that since the O*N*E Sentinels are out of commission for some time and shows them Crazy Train and War Machine, two new Sentinel models that O*N*E intends to use against Apocalypse. 

X-MEN v2 #185 (22) 
One day, one week after X 185 (1-18). As Gambit experiences an inner conflict as Death, Apocalypse prepares to release Pestilence. 
X-MEN v2 #186 
The same day as X 185 (22). This story occurs before XCAL4 9. Because Spidey appears in version 2.0 of his Stark-designed costume, this story must occur after ASM 531. Reed Richards is reachable, but is unavailable for a few days. Apocalypses sphinx appears over the U.N. Building and engages the Avengers (Cap, Iron Man, Spidey, Cage, Logan) in battle. Crazy Train (manned by Skylark) and War Machine (manned by Rhodey) arrivew on the scene with two jets of X-Men. The X-Men invade the sphinx and Ozymandias skewers War/Gazer. Sunfire arrives and takes off with the downed Death/Gambit. Placed on the defensive, Apocalypse escapes through a tear in space created by his Infernal Machine, and Pestilence/Polaris is gravely injured. Alex realizes shes Lorna and administers CPR, saving her life and getting a cold in the process. Back at the Xavier Institute, Emma gives Alex a serum for the cold. 
X-MEN v2 #186/2 
The same day as X 186. In the tear in space, Apocalypse is approached by a Celestial. 

X-MEN v2 #187 (1-4) 
Perhaps the day after X 186. Back in Japan, Sunfire enlists Gambit to form a new team of Horsemen independent of Apocalypse and resolves to get Polaris to join them. 

X-MEN v2 #187 (5-23) 
One day, weeks after X2 181. This segment must occur before X:DG 1 (2-28). At the Xavier Institute, Lornas mind is having difficulty dealing with her experience as Pestilence while her powers mutate from that of the Polaris-like ability hardwired into her by Apocalypse. Gambit and Sunfire arrive to claim Polaris and fight the X-Men. When Polaris awakens and refuses to go, Sunfire beats a retreat with Gambit in tow. Alex meets with Val Cooper to discuss the lack of adequate defense while the Sentinels are gone. Val notes that a new Sentinel Squad is due at any time. Polaris decides to leave the Institute that night to search for Apocalypse and the answers about her new powers. Rogue and Pulse start to get close. Back in Japan, Gambit and Sunfire look for direction and encounter Mr. Sinister. Green grass and trees at Westchester. Full moon. 

X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #1 (2-28) 
One day. This segment must occur after X 187 (5-23) and XF3 7-FB-FB. The Sentinels seen in this story arc must be the new squad referred to in X 187 (5-23). Vulcan is freed from Krakoa and attacks a space shuttle that launched on 6.18.2005. Using Cerebra, Emma detects the mutants presence and is knocked out. Scott, Logan, and Rachel jet to the shuttles crash site in the Adirondacks, ditching the pursuing Sentinel. At the Institute, Kitty and Kurt see visions. On rainy Muir Island, Banshee follows a vision of Moira MacTaggert to a building containing an archive of Xaviers notes. Sean plays a tape of Moira saying what a bastard Xavier is. The search team is led into a cave by a vision of Jean and is defeated by Vulcan, who drags Scott and Rachel away. As Logan comes to, he is found by the Sentinel and O*N*E, who place him under arrest. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #2 (1-11) 
The same night as X:DG 1 (2-28). With a Sentinel chaperone, Kitty and Beast arrive at the air force encampment in which Logan is being held. They are accompanied by Emma, who takes control of Commander Stacks mind to get Logan released. The three return to the Institute, and try to repair Cerebra so they can locate Scott and Rachel. Alex (who presumably hasnt left yet) gets anxious about the disappearance and sees a vision of Bobby and Lorna together. Scott and Rachel awaken to discover that they are bound and powerless. Green grass and trees in upstate New York. 

X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #2 (12-21) 
The day after X:DG 2 (1-11). Scott and Rachel learn that they are held at a facility that Xavier was in a long time ago, then they meet their mysterious captor. As Banshee jets to Westchester, Vulcan monitors his conversation with Kurt. On his way to the airport with Logan to pick up Sean, Kurt expresses concern about his vision and the strange behavior of their teammates. They arrive at the airport and at 5:42 in the evening, they see the Blackbird jetting right toward Banshees plane. Banshee flies out of the plane and tries to stop the Blackbird, but it explodes. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #5  FB  FB 
The same day as X:DG 2 (12-21). Vulcan is caught on camera watching the carnage from the Blackbird explosion from high in the air. 
X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #3 
The same night as X:DG 2 (12-21). Believing the X-Men to be responsible for the sabotage, the O*N*E locks down the Institute, but they back off when Kitty shows them that she reported the Blackbird missing yesterday. Alex, Bobby, and Peter see visions (and the Polaris shown here must be a vision, since Lorna must be in Egypt at this point). In the plane wreck, Logan and Kurt find Banshees corpse and the tape of Moira that he was bringing. Beast scans the tape and runs it, only to learn a secret about Xavier. Scott and Rachel are tormented by their captor. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 

X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #5  FB 
It must be the day after X:DG 3, as its three hours before X:DG 5. O*N*E sees Vulcan on a tape recording of the Blackbird disaster. They send Nathanial Briggs to Westchester Airport to investigate in his Sentinel armor. Green trees in New York. 
X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #4 
The day after X:DG 3. Logan, Kurt, and Hank watch Moiras tape and learn about the first team of new X-Men that Xavier sent to rescue the original team from Krakoa. Scott and Rachel awaken to find themselves freed from their shackles and discover that theyre in an American research facility that was run by Moira, a place that Scott dimly remembers. Their captor arrives and reveals himself to be Scotts brother, Kid Vulcan, who was one of the members of the substitute X-Men team. 
X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #5 
The same day as X:DG 4 and three hours after X:DG 5-FB. This story may occur after NA:I 1. Scott refuses to believe Vulcan. Briggs arrives at Moiras facility and engages Vulcan in battle. Scott uses the distraction to send Rachel away. Vulcan slays Briggs and leaves the scene with Scott in tow. That night, the X-Men watch TV news coverage of the event and Kitty discovers that the scene was Moiras research facility. Rachel arrives at the Institute and Vulcan and Scott arrive at Muir Island and meet Xavier there. The X-Men (Kitty, Colossus, Beast, Rachel, Iceman, Emma) arrive and Vulcan holds them at bay. Xavier reveals that hes regained his ability to walk but has lost his mutant powers. Green trees in New York and rain in Wales and Scotland.. 
X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #6 (1-24) 
The same night as X:DG 5. This segment occurs one week before X:DG 6 (25-28) and must occur before XF3 7-FB. Xavier tells everyone about Gabriels history and about what really happened with Krakoa. Concluding that Darwin has been Gabriel since then, Rachel separates Darwins consciousness from Gabriels. The X-Men then attack and, disgusted by what the teams become, Vulcan blasts off into space. The X-Men discover that Darwins consciousness is taking human form. 

X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #6 (25-28) 
One day, one week after X:DG 6 (1-24), during which time Xavier is at the Institute. This segment occurs shortly before UX 475-FB (3-5) and must occur after XF3 7. XF3 6 is referred to as having occurred the other day. As Sentinels stand at the Institute, Xavier and the Beast observe Darwins bodily evolution in the lab. The X-Men attend the funeral of Sway, Petra, and Banshee in the cemetery on the Institutes grounds; their graves are added to others already there  probably the ones seen in NX 24. Among those in attendance are Bishop, Peter, Kitty, Scott, Lorna, Kurt, Logan, Ororo, Rachel, Hank, Bobby, Emma, Alex?, Theresa, Pietro, and Xavier. Scott kicks Xavier out of the Institute for his betrayal. Vulcan flies through space with his targets set on the ShiAr. Green trees at Westchester.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:02 am    
By Somebody

Lorna can't be a "vision" in DG3 for two reasons - firstly, and most importantly, she replies to Havok. THe visions are simple, non-interactive replays of stuff that happened before (the other, more minor reason is visual - that she's in her Asamanga/Larroca costume when all the visions, including the DG2 one of Lorna, are 70s era). 

On the rest, I'm giving myself a headache trying to reconcile all this (remembering other stuff, like Iron Spider's appearance in X186). Aren't editors meant to make writers bloody talk to each other over this stuff - it's not as if either story would need substantive alterations to fit together.

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:08 am    
By jephyork
Director

I'm having some problems here. 

UX #475 has Lorna claim that she didn't know Xavier was walking again -- that it happened "in her absence". However, there she is in the funeral scene of X:DG #6, with a walking Prof. X. Surely she'd have noticed. 

Two, I'm not sure I like your solution that Lorna MUST be a vision in X:DG #3, since she MUST be in Egypt at the time ... that goes back to my dislike of ignoring legitimate character appearances for the sake of a smoother overall chronology. No dice. 

It looks like, aside from the opener and the funeral scene, X:DG takes three days. Now, allegedly all of X #187 occurs the same day as the battle with Apocalypse -- meaning any gaps we create should be less than one day long -- but to be honest, I don't much care about a throwaway reference to the battle being "today". As long as the gap we wedge open isn't a huge amount, like a week or a month, I'm fine with bending one time reference. Three days is fine -- but I'd hesitate to try to wedge the funeral scene, "a week" later than the rest of X:DG, into that same gap. Which means that if Lorna's present there, then ... maybe it's after she came back? 

Here's an idea ... when, in X:DG #6, does Cyclops tell Prof. X to leave the mansion? If, as I hope, it's before the funeral scene, we could potentially order things like this: 

X 187 - up until Lorna recovers. 
X:DG 1-6 - up until Prof. X is told to leave. 
X 187 - Lorna leaves, issue ends. 
UX 475 - Lorna returns, expresses surprise at a walking Prof. X. 
X:DG 6 - funeral scene, "a week" after the rest of X:DG. Lorna and walking Prof. X present. 
UX 475 - the rest of the issue. 

Eh? 

And Somebody, what's wrong with the Iron Spidey appearance in X #186? If it's that he allegedly got his costume the day before the Stamford disaster, I think there's been enough pre-Civil War Iron Spidey appearances by now that we've got to throw that reference out as bullsh*t. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:38 am    
By JD

Er, wait a second. Where's the gap in UX 475 ?

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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:17 am    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I'm having some problems here. 

UX #475 has Lorna claim that she didn't know Xavier was walking again -- that it happened "in her absence". However, there she is in the funeral scene of X:DG #6, with a walking Prof. X. Surely she'd have noticed. 
<<<

No, SHE expresses surprise that Xavier's walking, then HE says stuff has happened "in [her] absence", confirming she wasn't there when he reappeared. This falls after an Xavier/Beast scene which references the Xavier/Cyclops scene with Cyke telling him to get out. Which leads into him gathering the team which go . 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
It looks like, aside from the opener and the funeral scene, X:DG takes three days. Now, allegedly all of X #187 occurs the same day as the battle with Apocalypse -- meaning any gaps we create should be less than one day long -- but to be honest, I don't much care about a throwaway reference to the battle being "today". As long as the gap we wedge open isn't a huge amount, like a week or a month, I'm fine with bending one time reference. Three days is fine -- but I'd hesitate to try to wedge the funeral scene, "a week" later than the rest of X:DG, into that same gap. Which means that if Lorna's present there, then ... maybe it's after she came back? 
<<<


Quote: 
>>>
No, SHE expresses surprise that Xavier's walking, then HE says stuff has happened "in [her] absence". This falls after an Xavier/Beast scene which references the Xavier/Cyclops scene with Cyke telling him to get out. 
<<<


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Here's an idea ... when, in X:DG #6, does Cyclops tell Prof. X to leave the mansion? If, as I hope, it's before the funeral scene, 
<<<

No dice. Other than a generic "Vulcan flies through space" scene, it's the very last scene of the series, leading Xavier to recoil with shock and horror. 

I thought you said you bought every X-comic? 

Here's the events in question. Order them as you will: 

1) X179 - Emma tells Polaris to get out over Cyclops' objection, Polaris complies saying there's no place for her in the Mansion powerless. Havok quits to go with her 
2) X180-181 - Havok and Lorna leave the country looking for the thing Lorna saw in space. "Three Weeks Later", they're in Costa Rica, get involved with Daap, and ends with APocalypse's Sphinx appearing and sucking Lorna up. 
3) X185 backup, X182-186 + other backups - Blood of Apocalypse. After she's taken, Lorna's held unconscious for an indeternimate amount of time, and is then half-talked, half-forced into becoming Pestilence. Apoc attacks the X-Mansion, destroys the Sentinels, X-Men rescure Sunfire but Gambit switches sides and is curious black, Apoc attacks the UN, the Avengers, X-Men, War Machine and Skylark attack, after the battle's done, Wolverine (With the Avs, not XM) finds Polaris/Pestilence choking, Havok gives her mouth-to-mouth and stabilises her, Emma gives him some of the Blood of Apoc at the end to let him fight off the infection while Polaris lies in a hospital bed, comatose. 
4) X187 - Night of the day of X186, a few hours for the whole issue. Polaris wakes up briefly, freaks out and lashes out. Sunfire and Gambit attack, trying to retrieve Polaris and kill Rogue respectively. Gambit is stopped by Pulse, Sunfire by the awakened-and-sane Polaris, saying she's her own person for the first time in ages. Sunfire grabs Gambit and flies off. "Later" that night, Polaris announces her intention to leave the same night, and says Havok's not going with her this time. Rogue thanks Pulse for saving her life "today", but he messes up by coming on too strong. 
5) XDG1-6 (non-funeral) - Vulcan is hit by the Collective energy and woken up. He grabs a Space Shuttle, the astronauts dead, mutated wildly by the Collective energy and crashes the shuttle. Emma is knocked out by his reading while in Cerebra, which is also fried. Banshee, on Muir Island (Wasn't that sunk/destroyed?), is lead by a vision to the Xavier-is-a-bastard video. Lorna appears only in #3, in Larroca costume. Which is at least a couple of days after 1. 
6) XDG6: Funeral. Then Xavier is told to get out. 
7) UXM475 - Xavier talks with Beast about being told to get out, amongst other things. In order, he then proceeds to recruit Nightcrawler, Warpath, Rachel and (off-panel) Havok, before they all go to get Polaris, who's been on the run for "a week" from an unnamed "Anti-Apocalypse cult". She doesn't know Xavier's walking until Nightcrawler teleports her onto the Blackbird [in the last scene of the issue], and he says a lot has happened in her absence. 

*phew* 


Quote: 
>>>
And Somebody, what's wrong with the Iron Spidey appearance in X #186? If it's that he allegedly got his costume the day before the Stamford disaster, I think there's been enough pre-Civil War Iron Spidey appearances by now that we've got to throw that reference out as bullsh*t. 
<<<

No, that's about Wolverine and the Collective story in NewAv, which must fall after DG1, which means blahblahblah. Trying to keep one eye on the wider picture. 


JD wrote: 
>>>
Er, wait a second. Where's the gap in UX 475 ? 
<<<

There isn't one. Not in the sense Jeph wants one, anyway.

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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:15 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I thought you said you bought every X-comic? 
<<<

I do. In trades. I find it very frustrating, as it keeps me from actively participating in as many of the discussions here as I'd like. By the time I have a chance to study the stories, everyone else has already made up their minds about what goes where and I haven't been able to offer any input. >:( 


Quote: 
>>>
SHE expresses surprise that Xavier's walking, then HE says stuff has happened "in [her] absence", confirming she wasn't there when he reappeared. 
<<<

Okay, then Brubaker's contradicted himself, because Lorna was around at the funeral, when Xavier was walking. 


Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
when, in X:DG #6, does Cyclops tell Prof. X to leave the mansion? 
<<<

it's the very last scene of the series, leading Xavier to recoil with shock and horror. 
<<<

Crap. Okay, thanks for that, and thanks for confirming that there's no Lorna-gap in UX #475. 

So, since the funeral scene can't occur after Lorna returns, it must be before she leaves -- so all of X:DG must be before she leaves. But, leaves which time? 

At this point, I guess we're back to our original two choices: 

- Put X:DG between scenes of X #179, ignore/rationalize Briggs in X #183. 
- Put X:DG between scenes of X #187, ignore the same-day reference. 

Quote: 
>>>
No, that's about Wolverine and the Collective story in NewAv, which must fall after DG1, which means blahblahblah. Trying to keep one eye on the wider picture. 
<<<

Can you elaborate? If you can demonstrate that A4 #16-20 MUST occur after X:DG and MUST occur before X #186, that pretty much makes the case for where to place X:DG... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:08 am    
By Jason Doty

We need to keep Deadly Genesis between pages of X 179, because after 181, Lorna is taken by Apocalypse, becomes a Horseman is freed, rejects Sunfire and Gambit, then leaves to get away, the is recruted by Xavier. 

This hassel is being caused by one panel in the funeral scene from X: DG no.6 that shows three errors. 

Siryn acting contrary to how she acted in X-Factor, and Quicksilver and Lorna cannot be there. 

This is such a small error (1 panel) that trying to reconcile at the sake of plot points isn't going to work. Neither Quicksilver or Lorna speech at the funeral and arn't integral to the plot of that scene. As much as I also hate to leave characters out. This is going to be the only choice we have. The two of them cannot be there and the emotion did'nt hit Siryn untill she actually attended the funeral.

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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:54 am
By ADMINISTRATOR

Standard disclaimer applies (i.e., I haven't read the stories, and what follows is only a discussion of general theory). 

Maybe there's more than one Polaris. 

This theory has the added bonus of allowing Polaris to belong to both camps in Infinity Crusade, at the same time. 

Seriously, it's not really up to us to explain the how's or why's of Polaris appearing at various weddings and funerals and Columbus Day celebrations. Really, that's Marvel's job to offer explanations. What we need to be concerned about is that she does appear there, and the question is really neither how nor why, but simply "when". 

Now, I may be oversimplifying things, but let's just do what we do best. 

Sometimes, we ask the how and why, but only so far as they can help us determine the when. If we don't have answers to the how, or why, then they're simply not our concern. 

When we find ourselves asking "How did she do this?" or "Why didn't he know that?" and the answer to these questions is, "We don't know," let's just move on and determine the "when", and leave it up to Marvel to determine the "how" and "why". 

To ignore an obvious character appearance because we can't answer questions about motivation doesn't stike me as the proper methodology. 


watching: city confidential

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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:08 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Quote: 
>>>
What we need to be concerned about is that she does appear there, and the question is really neither how nor why, but simply "when".  
<<<

I'm not sure I agree with that, in this case. 

I can see the logic of this approach for Quicksilver, since his appearance isn't as such impossible, nor has it been expressly contradicted by a later story. It just raises the question of why the X-Men don't jump him on sight, given their attitude towards him in X-FACTOR, and it calls for an awful lot of explanation. 

But Polaris is in a different position. UX 475 tells us outright that she hasn't seen Professor X since he returned to the Mansion. On that basis, she simply CAN'T have been at the funeral. She's only a background figure in a crowd of mourners, with no dialogue and no role in the action. Her presence is expressly ruled out by a later story where she's a lead character. And since both stories are by the same writer, Ed Brubaker, it seems reasonable to conclude that her appearance at the funeral is nothing more than an art error.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:28 am    
By jephyork
Director

I'm with Russ on this one. We don't need to DO ANYTHING about the fact that Lorna's presence at the funeral contradicts UX #475 -- we've noticed that it does, we've noticed that she appears in both stories -- the rest is Marvel's problem. And more importantly, Lorna's presence doesn't really affect our arguments either way for the placement of X:DG. 

Quote: 
>>>
We need to keep Deadly Genesis between pages of X 179, because after 181, Lorna is taken by Apocalypse, becomes a Horseman is freed, rejects Sunfire and Gambit, then leaves to get away, the is recruted by Xavier. 
<<<

Yes, Jason, we've been over that several times. And it's been determined that there's some slight time passage in X #187 between Lorna's recovery and her leaving again. 


Quote: 
>>>
This hassel is being caused by one panel in the funeral scene from X: DG no.6 that shows three errors. 
<<<

No. This hassle is being caused because Briggs, a character that appears in X #183, IS KILLED in X:DG. Logic would dictate, then, that X:DG comes after X #183. Which is why I'm focusing on that miniscule gap in X #187... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:16 pm    
By Jason Doty

Jeph!, I was giving my opinion on your two choices and attempting to give my reasoning behind them. 

Are you suggesting putting all of X: DG in that small gap or just the funeral scene, which takes place a week after the main story?

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:28 pm    
By Hotcharokey

Quote: 
>>>
This hassel is being caused by one panel in the funeral scene from X: DG no.6 that shows three errors. 
<<<

Make that four errors. In BP #18, Storm is suprised to see that Professor X can walk. However, she is also present at the funeral in X:DG #6. I know, maybe we can assume that Siryn, Lorna, Quicksilver, and Storm were all actually Mystique having a little fun by impersonating everyone who was absent from the funeral. Of course, now all we have to figure out is how she was able to appear as more than one person at the same time.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

How about this? 

POLARIS -- 
After being Pestilence, she ends up unconscious in the Xavier Institute's medical facility in X 186. While she's there, X:DG happens and Xavier returns, but Lorna is unaware of those events. Lorna briefly regains consciousness and is seems well enough to immediately attend the funeral in X:DG 6. She quickly loses consciousness again (much to Beast's dismay), before she even notices Xavier there, and she's returned to the med facility. At the funeral, Scott tells Xavier he's not welcome. Then, in X 187, Lorna awakens again, Gambit and Sunfire come to claim her, chaos ensues, and Lorna decides to leave that night for Egypt. She never had the chance to learn about Xavier being at the Institute. Then, in UX 475, the rejected Xavier and his new team go to Egypt to recruit Lorna for the space mission and Lorna is surprised to see Xavier walking. 

STORM -- 
X:DG happens and Xavier returns. During the "week" between pages 24 and 25 of X:DG 6, Xavier and the Astonishing team attend the wedding of Ororo and T'Challa in BP4 18. Storm is surprised to see Xavier walking. After this, Ororo attends the funeral. 

While this sequence of events would make sense for Storm, it would require pushing a lot of recent X-stories into the Civil War time frame, including X:DG. This might have some benefits, including the placement XF3 7 (Scott telling Theresa about Sean's death) right after X:DG 6 (1-24) and the placement of XF3 8 just days after that. Remember that XF3 8 occurs after Spidey's unmasking and has a reference to XF3 7 as having occurred "the other day." 

It would also support placement of all of X:DG after CW 1, which was an option that was discussed earlier, although it wasn't popular. 

I'll work on seeing if we can indeed get recent X-adventures into the Civil War time frame. Can anyone think of major problems with this off-hand? I'm probably not thinking of something obvious, but couldn't wait to suggest this theory.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:16 am    
By Somebody

*rechecks comics again* 

Yeah, there's a "weeks" gap between X186 and X187 I hadn't noticed before (Rogue to Pulse, thanking him for his support over the past "few weeks"), but it doesn't help matters - firstly, her in-(purple)-costume appearance in DG3 which is far more significant than the "can't that be Lila Cheney after visiting a planet where people who don't have green hair get stoned to death for a concert" non-speaking single-panel cameo in DG6 which Brubaker appears to have deliberately attempted to retcon in UX475. Secondly, they don't have a clue in X187 whether her mind's gone or not after everything (Emma uses a particularly... flowery... phrase to describe this). 

And should all the X-Men/DG stuff be moved to this thread, since we've got pretty off-the-subject of Civil War.

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:37 am    
By jephyork
Director

Paul, sorry, but Polaris can't be unconscious during the bulk of X:DG -- as we've noted before, she appears in at least #3 and she can't be a vision. 

And as for Storm, she could have appeared at the funeral via hologram -- Bishop noted in UX #469 or thereabouts that she's got access to extremely sophisticated and lifelike imaging technology. That could be why she didn't notice Prof. X walking again ... she projected in just for the service itself and didn't stay to socialize. 

I'm not prepared to claim that Storm, Polaris, Quicksilver and/or Siryn weren't really there at the funeral. 


Jason: 

Quote: 
>>>
Are you suggesting putting all of X: DG in that small gap or just the funeral scene, which takes place a week after the main story? 
<<<

If we deem Briggs' appearance in X #183 to be significant enough not to ignore, then I'm advocating putting the entire series in the gap in X #187. 

The reason I was suggesting moving the funeral scene up into UX #475 (before I realized it was impossible) was to minimize the size of the gap we were opening in X #187. After all, the funeral takes place a week after the rest of the issue. 

However, right now my solution is to put ALL of X:DG in that gap, and ignore the "week" reference and pretend the funeral took place the day after the rest of the issue (thus minimizing the gap we've opened). 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:41 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
If we deem Briggs' appearance in X #183 to be significant enough not to ignore, then I'm advocating putting the entire series in the gap in X #187. 
<<<

I'm rather baffled that you're suggesting Briggs' appearance in X 183 might be ignored if it was insignificant, yet a bunch of non-speaking cameos in XDG 6 are non-negotiable. 

But leaving that aside, I agree with you that Briggs' appearance requires XDG to follow "Blood of Apocalypse", and since Polaris is present at the Mansion, the series simply has to take place between pages of X 187. There's no other space where Polaris is at the Mansion, and therefore that's the only way XDG can be placed relative to X-MEN.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:53 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Paul, sorry, but Polaris can't be unconscious during the bulk of X:DG -- as we've noted before, she appears in at least #3 and she can't be a vision.  
<<<

So she regained consciousness on at least two occasions, including X:DG 3. (She awoke, donned her purple Polaris costume, walked out and encountered Alex, who says "is that really you?" "Yeah, I think so." She passes out off-panel. It could happen.) Perhaps she has a series of recoveries (incl. X:DG 3 and the funeral in X:DG 6) and relapses in the "weeks" between X 186 and 187. During the brief recoveries, she does not see Xavier and does not learn of his state. Seems like an easy explanation to me. And the "week" gap within X:DG 6 can easily fit in the "weeks" separating X 186 and 187. 

I think Pietro easily could appear in one panel at the funeral in X:DG 6 and not be noticed by anyone present. Doesn't his new hyper-speed allow him to do this? 

Does anyone have an objection to the funeral in X:DG 6 occurring after Ororo's wedding in BP4 18? That would explain the whole Ororo/Xavier thing. 

I'm still working on this, but an X-chronology might shape up like this, within a time frame of about five or six weeks (during which a lot of CW stuff is going on elsewhere in the MU): 

X 186 -- weeks before X 187 (5-23) -- Lorna wiped out 
X 186/2 
X 187 (1-4) 
W3 42 (1-19) ~ CW 1 
BP4 14 -- Logan w/Ororo in Africa 
BP4 15 (1-20) 
UX 472 
UX 473 
UX 474 -- bye, Jamie 
UX@2 1-FB 
UX@2 1 
BP4 15 (21-22) 
BP4 16 
W3 42 (20-22) 
W3 43 -- two weeks after CW 1 
W3 44 
W3 45 
XF3 1 
XF3 2 
XF3 3 
XF3 4 
XF3 5 
XF3 6 -- "the other day" in X:DG 6 (25-28) 
BP4 17 (1-14) -- plans for T'Challa's bachelor party involve Logan 
X:DG 1 
X:DG 2 
X:DG 3 -- a brief recovery for Lorna 
X:DG 4 
X:DG 5 
X:DG 6 (1-24) -- a week before X:DG 6 (25-28) -- bye, Sean 
XF3 7-FB -- "the other day" in XF3 8 -- Theresa notified 
XF3 7 
BP4 17 (16-22) -- T'Challa's and Ororo's parties 
BP4 18 -- the wedding -- Ororo: wow, Prof! -- Psylocke there 
XCAL4 8 -- Betsy: Jamie's gone -- bye, Betsy 
XF3 8 
XF3 9 
X:DG 6 (25-28) -- a week after X:DG 6 (1-24) -- the funeral -- another brief recovery for Lorna -- Scott tells Xavier to leave 
X 187 (5-23) -- weeks after X 186 -- Lorna up and leaves 
UX 475-FBs -- Xavier: Scott wants me out 
UX 475 -- two days later; get Lorna: wow, Prof! 
X 188-FB (1-3) 
UX 476-FB 
UX 476 -- Xavier & co. into space 
UX 188-FB (4-21) 
X 188 
X 189 -- Raven impersonates Xavier 
X 190 
XCAL4 9 
CW:X 1
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:54 pm    
By Jason Doty

I just thought about an idea. As far as the funeral scene goes, I believe we could place a gap between UX 475 and UX 476, because we can assume that Xavier and crew head back to the mansion for Professor X to get Darwin and also converse with Cyclops about it as well as enlist Iron Man and Reed Richards help to find the base in the first place. Xavier knew about the base but needed help to find it. This would solve all the problems, because it would be after the wedding, and after the X-Men tell X-Factor that Quicksilver is their problem and for Siryn to come to the realazation that her father is dead. 

At the end of recruiting Lorna at the end of UX 475 Xavier tells those X-Men with him the plan, but their is no set amount of time between the issues. 

So my suggestion would be: 

UX 475-f/b's 
UX 475 
X: DG 6 (25-28) 
UX 476-f/b 
X 188 
UX 476 

This would at the very least settle the funeral problem. What does everyone think?

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:24 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
If we deem Briggs' appearance in X #183 to be significant enough not to ignore, then I'm advocating putting the entire series in the gap in X #187. 
<<<

I'm rather baffled that you're suggesting Briggs' appearance in X 183 might be ignored if it was insignificant, yet a bunch of non-speaking cameos in XDG 6 are non-negotiable. 
<<<

That's not really what I meant. I guess the difference in my head is that we don't actually SEE Briggs on-panel -- we just see a Sentinel. We (logically) presume that he's piloting it because someone yells his name. 

If someone could prove to me, using other sources, that X:DG *must* precede "Blood of Apocalypse", then I'd be willing to ignore the one shouted "Briggs!" in X #183. Somebody seemed to be heading in that direction, implying that A4 #16-20, which must occur after at least the start of X:DG due to the energy cloud's appearance, must also occur before X #186 because of something to do with Spider-Man's Iron Spidey outfit -- and therefore X:DG must precede X #186. However, he never followed up ... and so I'm NOT inclined to ignore the shouting of Briggs' name. 

Jason, I thought that we already decided it was impossible to put the funeral after the start of UX #475, because Cyclops orders Xavier off the mansion grounds *after* the funeral ... and Xavier's discussing that ultimatum at the *start* of UX #475. Therefore Funeral -> ultimatum -> UX #475. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:31 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
the "week" gap within X:DG 6 can easily fit in the "weeks" separating X 186 and 187. 
<<<

Not having the issue, I'm confused here. I thought Somebody said that X #187 happens the same day as X #186. He did mention that Rogue thanked Pulse for helping her "over the last few weeks", but hasn't Pulse been at the mansion since well before X #186? 

Where in the issue does each reference fall? 

I have to say, I'm not a fan of assuming that Lorna has bunches of recoveries and fainting spells off-panel between X #186-187. From what I've read of X #187, they seemed awfully concerned for her well-being while running the tests on her. Almost as if, you know, she *hadn't* regained consciousness one or two times in the recent past. 

My copy of the "Blood of Apocalypse" trade will be arriving on August 11. I can hardly wait to actually READ this thing we've all been discussing so vigorously... :-) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:38 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Somebody seemed to be heading in that direction, implying that A4 #16-20, which must occur after at least the start of X:DG due to the energy cloud's appearance, must also occur before X #186 because of something to do with Spider-Man's Iron Spidey outfit -- and therefore X:DG must precede X #186. 
<<<

Ah, well A4 16-20 is a cluster of irreconcilable continuity references, and at some point you've just got to pick and choose between them. The story claims that only a week has passed since HOUSE OF M, but then goes on to feature scenes on Genosha that clearly follow SON OF M #6, as well as including Spider-Man's new costume (which places the story after The Other, which in turn follows HOUSE OF M). The continuity references for that story are such a mess that some of them will clearly have to be ignored, and within reason, I'm comfortable with just picking the place that makes things simplest and going with that.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:48 am    
By Jason Doty

It's not so much an ultimatum, as a statement, but you are correct, right at the end of the funeral he does tell him to leave and at the begining of UX 475 while the Beast and Professor X are talking, Professor X says Scott still wants him to leave. 

I'm just making an assumption that Professor X has been feeling the vibe about being unwelcome and at the end of the funeral when he asks Scott if they can talk today, Scott tells him outright that he has to leave and he has no place there. 

This reads a whole lot easier than assuming Lorna is recovering and relapsing twice and solves all the appearance glitches. 

Just have all the people in on this debate read the funeral scene and the UX 475 scene with Beast and Professor X at the begining and see if they can swallow this idea, because it at least solves part of this debate.

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Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:47 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It doesn't work for me. Professor X reacts to Cyclops' comment in X:DG 6 as though it's a surprising and shocking statement. I can't square that with the UX 475 scenes coming first. 

I have to say that I think it is overwhelmingly clear that Lorna was not meant to be in that scene. UX 475 is obviously written on that assumption. I really don't understand the philosophy of twisting the stories to try and preserve the canonicity of an obvious error.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:15 am    
By jephyork
Director

See, to me preserving Lorna's appearance at the funeral scene DOESN'T involve any chronological twisting. 

We all agree that her appearance in X:DG #3 must be legitimate, right? In which case, because of good old Briggs, the bulk of X:DG must occur between pages of X #187. 

So to me, it's no big deal to say that, what the heck, the funeral occured in that gap too. 

It's not like placing the funeral *there*, rather than during another time period, makes Storm, Quicksilver and Siryn's glitchy appearances *better* somehow ... so why not leave it? That way, just in case the Lorna appearance is legit, we've got it covered. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:44 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
See, to me preserving Lorna's appearance at the funeral scene DOESN'T involve any chronological twisting. 
<<<

No, but it mutilates the sense of a scene in UX 475 by having Polaris react with shock and surprise to something she must already know. Whether that's "chronological twisting" is semantically doubtful, but it's just unworkable as a natural reading of the scene. 

Consider what we have here. The funeral scene is essentially an epilogue to X:DG 6. In that scene, Lorna appears in the background and does absolutely nothing. It makes no difference whether she's there or not; the artist has probably just picked a few characters at random to fil out the ranks. The scene does, however, end with Cyclops telling Professor X to get out of the Institute. This ultimatum comes as a shock to the Professor. 

In UX 475, Cyclops is still grumbling that Xavier hasn't left. So it's after the funeral scene. Polaris is off in Egypt, and when the X-Men show up, she expresses surprise that Xavier is walking again. If she had been present at the funeral, she would have known that he was walking; therefore she can't have been at the funeral, and the art in X:DG 6 must be a mistake. 

That's the way any sensible reader would interpret these scenes, and it's the way we'd interpret them if we weren't determined to preserve all references at any cost. In order to preserve a trivial cameo appearance which is obviously a mistake (or at least would be interpreted as such by any normal reader) we're prepared to mutilate the sense of UX 475. I just do not for the life of me understand why that's worthwhile. Why are we so unwilling to dismiss trivialities as errors, and yet so blase about trashing the dramatic sense of scenes in order to preserve those trivial errors? It seems a bizarrely inverted sense of priorities. 

We're not even preserving the literal meaning of the stories here. We're assaulting UX 475 with a chainsaw, wilfully ignoring its dialogue, and vandalising the literal and dramatic sense of its scenes, solely to preserve an erroneous cameo. What possible rationale can there be for that approach? Why is a trivial art error more important than a plot-significant line of dialogue? 

You might argue that the dialogue can be explained away, but it really can't, without resorting to absurd and ludicrous contrivances. And if absurd and ludicrous contrivances are acceptable, why not apply them to the easier target and declare that the character in X:DG 6 isn't Lorna at all, but just somebody who looks a bit similar? 


Quote: 
>>>
We all agree that her appearance in X:DG #3 must be legitimate, right? In which case, because of good old Briggs, the bulk of X:DG must occur between pages of X #187. 
<<<

Certainly, but that leaves open the possibility of Lorna leaving the Mansion after X:DG 3 and before Professor X arrives to attend the funeral - a substantial gap.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:09 am    
By Somebody

*agrees with Paul O 100% on this matter* 

Call the scene in UX475 a retcon if you must, but a panel where the artist appears to have chosen about the worst character lineup and attitudes imaginable in the circumstances doesn't hold much weight IMO, expecially when you're gutting scenes in UX475 and XF3 9 to try and force Polaris and Quicksilver in. 

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
the "week" gap within XDG 6 can easily fit in the "weeks" separating X 186 and 187. 
<<<

Not having the issue, I'm confused here. I thought Somebody said that X #187 happens the same day as X #186. He did mention that Rogue thanked Pulse for helping her "over the last few weeks", but hasn't Pulse been at the mansion since well before X #186? 
<<<

The "same day" was my initial reading before I noticed the "weeks" line. Pulse arrived in X181, and him and Rogue are awkward around each other in the "whoops, I didn't mean to draw them both in costume" scene in X182. My initial reading was that, given the Gambit/Sunfire, Iceman/Bling and Havok/Emma conversations, very little time had passed, but the Rogue/Pulse conversation appears to contradict that by giving a "weeks", implicitly while Gambit's been gone. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I have to say, I'm not a fan of assuming that Lorna has bunches of recoveries and fainting spells off-panel between X #186-187. From what I've read of X #187, they seemed awfully concerned for her well-being while running the tests on her. Almost as if, you know, she *hadn't* regained consciousness one or two times in the recent past. 
<<<

Nothing in the issue suggests she's been conscious at any point since being found by Wolverine in X186 and lots suggests she hasn't. Maybe she had a mild relapse - not enough to knock her back into a coma, but enough to force her to stick around for a few days after X187 - but UX475 makes it clear she cannot have stayed for the week-and-a-half or so for the funeral.

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Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:01 pm    
By Jason Doty

Jeph! wrote 
>>>
It's not like placing the funeral *there*, rather than during another time period, makes Storm, Quicksilver and Siryn's glitchy appearances *better* somehow ... so why not leave it? That way, just in case the Lorna appearance is legit, we've got it covered.  
<<<

Yes it does. 

My suggestion involves throwing nothing out and allowing all characters present to be able too. It also dose'nt leave glaring continuity glitches like "you can walk!," which is way more obvious than Cyclops asking him to leave. 

I'm with the suggestion to place the bulk of X: DG between X 187, but not the funeral. 

It looks like no matter which way we go with this not all of our intrests are served, so I'll bow to the concensus.

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Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:22 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Paul, nobody's assaulting UX #475 with a chainsaw. 

It's been said earlier in the thread -- by me and by Russ -- that at a certain point, the MCP doesn't *need* to bother with "how" or "why" a given character appears in a book. ALL we care about is "when". If Marvel publishes some appearances that don't work well in the broader picture, that's Marvel's problem. We don't write the books -- we just reflect their contents. 

WE aren't violating the beautiful purity and authorial intent of UX #475 -- the artist and editor of X:DG #6 did that. The fact is, in the book as published, Lorna appears. We've analyzed her appearance (over and over) and come to the conclusion that it's extremely unlikely that she should have appeared there. We have NOT, however, concluded that it's chronologically impossible for her to be there. And I'm sorry, but I don't CARE that her appearance is awkward. It's not impossible, and to me that's the bottom line. 

Paul, I actually think you're TOO willing to dismiss unlikely-but-not-impossible character appearances. Remember Josh Guthrie in UX #444? His appearance there was awkward, and accomodating it required interweaving some pages of X #157 and UX #444 -- but you advocated simply dismissing his presence as an art error. Never mind that we actually found a way to keep it. 
Same here. There IS a way to keep Lorna's appearance -- yes, it's awkward but it's not impossible -- but no, let's just discount her, because that's simpler. 

I've never thought that we at the MCP were in pursuit of the simple solution. I thought our job was to interweave things to accomodate all character appearances -- awkward or not. I've never thought that our chronologies should be sleek and attractive when we're done divining them -- just accurate. They can be as messy as hell, as long as they're accurate. And I define "accurate" as "accurately reflecting any awkward appearances Marvel has let slip out their door". 

And right now, I'm curious exactly what BENEFIT we gain -- speaking purely chronologically, not aesthetically -- from discounting Lorna's appearance in X:DG #6? 

I mean, the bulk of X:DG still has to occur between pages in X #187. We've all pretty much agreed on that. 

The funeral still has to occur before UX #745. There's no getting around that. 

All we're debating about is where to put the funeral scene. And does it really work BETTER if it's put somewhere else in the timeline between the middle of X #187 and the start of UX #475? Do we gain a significant advantage? An ability to reconcile some OTHER character's awkward appearance? 

No, we don't. So WHAT'S THE BLOODY HARM in leaving the funeral scene in the one place where it COULD accomodate Lorna's unlikely appearance -- instead of deleting her because it's simple, and gaining the unneeded ability to put the funeral somewhere else? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:33 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
The funeral still has to occur before UX #745. There's no getting around that. 
<<<

Well, obviously 

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Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:51 pm    
By jephyork
Director

See, it's not like I'm blowing off EVERYTHING you tell me.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 31 Jul 2006 03:19 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And right now, I'm curious exactly what BENEFIT we gain -- speaking purely chronologically, not aesthetically -- from discounting Lorna's appearance in X:DG #6? 
<<<

Ah, but here we're getting to the nub of the problem. I don't accept the principle that we should approach the task "purely chronologically, not aesthetically." At that point, the tail is wagging the dog. You're rewriting the stories to fit the chronology. But the point of the chronology is to order the stories. The stories come first; a solution that undermines the dramatic sense of the stories is no solution at all, and reduces the whole exercise to a glorified maths problem. I don't see the point of a chronology unless it provides some meaningful guide to reading the stories. It should all come back to the stories in the end. 

Clearly there is a continuity error here. X:DG 6 shows Lorna at the funeral; UX 475 says she isn't there. I don't see the benefit of pretending that both stories are true and that there must be an unrevealed explanation. It's wildly artificial. Why can't we just accept a continuity error when we see one? 

We have to choose one story over the other. In this case, it is a trivially easy choice: Lorna's status is part of the action in UX 475, and a mere background detail in X:DG 6. Eliminating her from the funeral scene does no damage at all to that story, whereas keeping her leaves UX 475 with absurd dialogue. 

You suggest that it's "not chronologically impossible" for Lorna to be there, which appears to concede the principle that an appearance can be disregarded if it didn't really happen. But the dialogue in UX 475 tells us outright that she wasn't there. If that doesn't show that her appearance is impossible, what on earth would?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 31 Jul 2006 04:31 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
How about this? 

STORM -- 
XDG happens and Xavier returns. During the "week" between pages 24 and 25 of XDG 6, Xavier and the Astonishing team attend the wedding of Ororo and T'Challa in BP4 18. Storm is surprised to see Xavier walking. After this, Ororo attends the funeral. 

While this sequence of events would make sense for Storm, it would require pushing a lot of recent X-stories into the Civil War time frame, including XDG. This might have some benefits, including the placement XF3 7 (Scott telling Theresa about Sean's death) right after XDG 6 (1-24) and the placement of XF3 8 just days after that. Remember that XF3 8 occurs after Spidey's unmasking and has a reference to XF3 7 as having occurred "the other day." 

It would also support placement of all of XDG after CW 1, which was an option that was discussed earlier, although it wasn't popular. 

I'll work on seeing if we can indeed get recent X-adventures into the Civil War time frame. Can anyone think of major problems with this off-hand? I'm probably not thinking of something obvious, but couldn't wait to 
suggest this theory. 
<<<

Hadn't noticed this before, but I was too focused in on the Polaris bit. The bulk of DG can't be pushed into the Civil War timeframe because of NewAv16. Paul O is quite right to say what a mess that story is, but the fact is that, after NewAv16-20, the Big Ball Of Energy&trade; that hits Vulcan isn't in Earth-orbit to hit him and the astronauts it mutates & kills. 

So, you're putting NewAv16-20, the BP wedding issue (Which I haven't read and don't plan to), Civil War #1 and probably a bunch of other comics in the "week" between Vulcan flying into space and the funeral by moving it up there. Dunno if that works or not, but it has to be tight. 

And XF3 #8 occurs BEFORE Spidey's unmasking. Not only does it not have the obligatory reference/flashback that the other 112000 comics to be set after CW2 have, but there's a dialogue reference to the contrary.

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Posted: 31 Jul 2006 08:14 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
So, you're putting NewAv16-20, the BP wedding issue (Which I haven't read and don't plan to), Civil War #1 and probably a bunch of other comics in the "week" between Vulcan flying into space and the funeral by moving it up there. Dunno if that works or not, but it has to be tight.  
<<<

Yup, that week is definitely going to have to be stretched if the funeral indeed occurs after the wedding to accommodate Ororo's surprise at Xavier walking. 

Within that "week," you have to have (among many other things): 

A4 16-20 -- which actually can occur during the days that the bulk of X:DG 1-6 take; before CW [I HATE how screwed up A4 16 is!] 

XF3 7 -- in which Scott informs Theresa of Sean's death, presumably shortly after X:DG 6 (1-24) 

CW 1 (1-7) -- the Stamford incident 

CW 2 (8p4) -- the registration deadline, which, according to W3 43, occurs "two weeks" after Stamford 

XF3 8 -- after the registration deadline, so XF3 7 having occurred "the other day" is a stretch; and before Spidey unmasks 

XF3 9 -- same day as XF3 8; X-Men want to thrash Pietro, then leave him in X-Factor's hands 

ASM 533 (and countless other titles) -- Spidey unmasks 

CW 3 (2-3) -- after Spidey unmasks; Reed approaches T'Challa, so before the wedding 

BP4 18 -- the wedding, in which the above is referenced; Ororo is surprised by the walking Xavier 

Then, and only then, do we finally have X:DG 6 (25-28) -- the funeral, which Xavier, Ororo, and Pietro (yes) attend. Following that, we must have UX 475 and the "Scott doesn't want me...boo-hoo" comment. 

We talking a good three weeks here. Maybe we "pull a Cable" and substitute "month" for "week" in that temporal reference in X:DG 6. Of course, that would mean that the X-Men took their sweet time to get a funeral organized. It also means that Vulcan spent a while flying in space on his way to the Shi'ar Empire. It may also mean that Xavier hung around the Institute for quite some time before a ticked Scott finally told him off...or not. There may be a reason for Xavier not to have been at the Institute for a good chunk of the few weeks between pages 24 and 25 of X:DG...who knows? 

So I'd say we've made good sense of Ororo and Pietro being at the funeral. Lorna...not so much. But given the battle raging around that issue, I'm sticking with the brief recovery/relapse explanation, which preserves Lorna's appearances in both X:DG 3 and X:DG 6 (25-28), as well as the Briggs chronology and the integrity of Lorna's surprise at Xavier walking in UX 475.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Aug 2006 08:20 am    
By Andy Holcombe

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
You suggest that it's "not chronologically impossible" for Lorna to be there, which appears to concede the principle that an appearance can be disregarded if it didn't really happen. But the dialogue in UX 475 tells us outright that she wasn't there. If that doesn't show that her appearance is impossible, what on earth would? 
<<<

Lorna's been a nut job since at least Chuck Austen's run on X-Men. She can be in a scene and still not present. When Xavier says that "stuff happened in [her] absence," he could have been referring to her mental state. 

Concerning Quicksilver, the X-Men could have given him amnesty for the funeral. It's happened before.

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Posted: 01 Aug 2006 10:00 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Lorna's been emotionally unstable, admittedly, but I don't see how that can be generalised into a claim that she simply forgot she was at the funeral. Besides, Professor X's dialogue in UX 475 clearly indicates that HE doesn't think she was at the funeral either. It's not purely a matter of her recollection.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 01 Aug 2006 11:45 am    
By Marc-Oliver Frisch

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Ah, but here we're getting to the nub of the problem. I don't accept the principle that we should approach the task "purely chronologically, not aesthetically." At that point, the tail is wagging the dog. You're rewriting the stories to fit the chronology. But the point of the chronology is to order the stories. The stories come first; a solution that undermines the dramatic sense of the stories is no solution at all, and reduces the whole exercise to a glorified maths problem. I don't see the point of a chronology unless it provides some meaningful guide to reading the stories. It should all come back to the stories in the end. 
<<< 


I certainly agree with the sentiment, but -- and I don't remotely mean that as a slight -- my impression of the Chronology Project's purpose has always been that it's precisely what you say it's not. 

After all, it's business as usual for the Chronology Project to pluck stories apart at its leisure and rebuild them around chunks of other stories so they fit "the chronology." What I get from that, personally, is that it's NOT the stories which are the utmost priority, but the chronology. 

Personally, as a reader, I'm generally much more interested in a useful "reading guide" to the stories than in an absolute chronology, even if minor contradictions -- or sometimes, inevitably, major ones -- may remain: The best possible compromise between maintaining the story's integrity on the one hand, and keeping a reasonable semblance of a chronological order on the other hand -- but always with story integrity as the overriding priority. 

But that's not at all what the Chronology Project is, right? By its very definition, the Chronology Project wants to provide a definitive chronology WITHOUT any contradictions. Even presuming that's possible, this approach still obviously requires stories to be frequently cut apart with chainsaws. 

And again, that's not meant as a slight. For the purpose of providing help to creators in sorting through a character's backstory or even as an end in itself, if you like that sort of exercise, I can see how making the chronology a priority can be worthwhile. 

It's just not what I, as a reader, am interested in most of the time.
_________________
Marc-Oliver Frisch 
POPP'D! -- Comikado -- Supercritical 

Updated almost daily.

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Posted: 01 Aug 2006 11:49 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

What if the writer or the editor for the story were to come out and indeed verify that a character that appears in a scene wasn't meant to be there, and that the character's appearance is indeed an art error? Is that enough to hold off the chainsaws?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 01 Aug 2006 01:16 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
What if the writer or the editor for the story were to come out and indeed verify that a character that appears in a scene wasn't meant to be there, and that the character's appearance is indeed an art error? Is that enough to hold off the chainsaws? 
<<<

In general, yes. There's the famous Tigra appearance in an Avengers West Coast Annual, and a cartoon published in the back of a later issue where John Byrne told us all that he goofed up and she wasn't really there -- and in a more recent example, I'm thinking of the Vision's appearance in Spectacular Spider-Man v2 #19, and Tom Brevoort's comment that that story took place after "Avengers Disassembled", and so he must not have been there. 

If someone would like to contact an editor, or Ed Brubaker himself, please feel free. Once a chronology discussion devolves into personal philosophies, I don't think much more headway can be made. 

I don't have X:DG #6, so I don't know -- is Lorna at the funeral in costume? Is she arm-in-arm with Havok? Or is she standing alone, in street clothes? 

What I'm really asking is, how likely is it that her appearance is a coloring error? If the only thing marking her as "Lorna" is green hair, I might consider writing it off ... but if she's in costume, or hugging Alex, or if every other attendee is a current X-character and she couldn't possibly be "an unnamed mourner", then I'd have a much harder time, personally, rationalizing it as an error. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Aug 2006 01:48 pm    
By Somebody

*edit* 500 posts? Sheesh... 

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I don't have XDG #6, so I don't know -- is Lorna at the funeral in costume? Is she arm-in-arm with Havok? Or is she standing alone, in street clothes? 
<<<

I posted the pic back on page 4. This is IT: 

 

Quote: 
>>>
If someone would like to contact an editor, or Ed Brubaker himself, please feel free. Once a chronology discussion devolves into personal philosophies, I don't think much more headway can be made. 
<<<

He posts on the Comicboards Captain America board, I think, but I don't know of anywhere else.

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Posted: 01 Aug 2006 02:09 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Kevin sounds like he just volunteered.  

Thanks for the panel -- I didn't realize that she was just in the one. 

By the way, what about the rest of the funeral scene? Is it a big crowd of unnamed mourners, or a small crowd, all obviously X-Men? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Aug 2006 03:16 pm    
By Somebody

SOmewhere in-between. Black Panther's the only non-X character I can definitively identify (although I'm not sure who several of the people in that panel are), but there are a lot of human-shaped blobs in the background. 

To Hell with it, I'll just post the substance of the page: 

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Posted: 01 Aug 2006 08:23 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
...or if every other attendee is a current X-character and she couldn't possibly be "an unnamed mourner", then I'd have a much harder time, personally, rationalizing it as an error.  
<<<

It's clearly Lorna, the hair, and the face look like Lorna. 
Every single character who isn't a dark shape in the far background, is an X-Character (or the Black Panther) 

I don't see how that can be written off as an art error, unless it is absolutly impossible for her to be there, and I don't think that's the case. 

Against a clear appaearance, we have a couple of lines in Uncanny 475 
Lorna - "Yeah - Are you walking again?" 
Xavier " I am, though other things have changed in your absence." 

To me those lines could be read in several ways. One of which is that Lorna hasn't spoken to Xavier since he was walking(despite seeing him at the funeral,) and she is making conversation. There really is no reason for either one to bring up the funeral in this scene.

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Posted: 01 Aug 2006 10:44 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I only brought up that question as I do tend to put a fairly high value on writer/editorial intent. I can try to hunt down Brubaker, but others should feel free to keep a look out for him as well. Some of you hang out at far more Marvel message boards than I do.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 02 Aug 2006 05:58 am  
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Lorna aside, how do folks like the placement of the funeral in X:DG 6 after the wedding in BP4 18? Although it requires making the gap in X:DG 6 three or four times longer than the stated "week," it does solve both the Ororo and Pietro problems. Chronological analysis of Civil War places the wedding after XF3 9, so Pietro would be at the funeral after being remanded to X-Factor. Ororo and T'Challa might be at the funeral during a stop on their world tour honeymoon.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Aug 2006 06:06 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It's an awfully long time to wait before burying somebody, but I agree that BLACK PANTHER #18 seems to demand that Ororo and Xavier appear in that scene first.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 02 Aug 2006 10:15 am    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Although it requires making the gap in XDG 6 three or four times longer than the stated "week," it does solve both the Ororo and Pietro problems. Chronological analysis of Civil War places the wedding after XF3 9, so Pietro would be at the funeral after being remanded to X-Factor. Ororo and T'Challa might be at the funeral during a stop on their world tour honeymoon. 
<<<

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Posted: 02 Aug 2006 11:27 am    
By jannepie

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
It's an awfully long time to wait before burying somebody, but I agree that BLACK PANTHER #18 seems to demand that Ororo and Xavier appear in that scene first. 
<<<

Three weeks isn't that long. That's how long it took to bury my grandfather, although I don't know if the habits are different in other countries. They could have waited with the funeral so all Banshee's relatives had time to make their way to the United States. 

But yeah, it sounds like a great explanation! So that was indeed Black Panther next to Storm in XMDG #6?

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Posted: 02 Aug 2006 11:28 am    
By jephyork
Director

[in response to Somebody's posted panel:] 

So? Siryn's at the funeral -- that means "X-Factor's problem" is being chaperoned by someone from X-Factor. And I'm sure the X-Men would lighten up on their "mad at Pietro" stance for the duration of a funeral... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 02 Aug 2006 11:59 am    
By jephyork
Director

And, wait, now I'm a little confused. 

Paul, you put forth a suggestion that Lorna recovers and has a relapse between X #186-187, right? Which would rationalize away the fact that she's unconscious at the end of X #186 and still unconscious when X #187 opens, yes? 

And this would allow us to place all these events -- X:DG #1-6 in full, Civil War #1, etc. -- between X #186-187? Rather than wedging open the miniscule gap between panels in X #187 when Lorna wakes up, and dumping them all in there, right? 

Although I don't particularly like this rationalization, I just remembered that Marvel has pulled something very like it before. One of the Official Indexes to the X-Men decided that Marvel Team-Up Annual #1 occured between pages of UX #101, between the shuttle crash where Jean announced herself to be Phoenix, then collapsed, and her subsequent scenes in the hospital. They stated that Jean got better off-panel, appeared in M/TU@ #1, then relapsed and was taken *back* to the hospital, where we saw her in the rest of UX #101. 

So there's a precedent for this type of thing -- but, my question is, do WE have the right do do this? That was Marvel making an official statement, this is a bunch of fans looking for a way to make the awkward look prettier. 

I hesitate to offer my own personal solution, having not read the majority of the books in question -- but I don't know if we have the authority to invent relapses, unless it's chronologically impossible to reconcile the books otherwise. And I don't know if that's the case this time around. 

Personally, I'd prefer to: 

(a) wedge open the gap in X #187 to accomodate the three weeks' worth of stories you're suggesting fit between the bulk of X:DG and the funeral, or 

(b) ignore the disparities in Quicksilver's presence, Siryn's attitude, and Storm and Lorna's later ignorance of Prof. X's mobility, ignore the "week" reference between the bulk of X:DG and the funeral, compress the entire X:DG miniseries to four days and leave it between panels of X #187, and leave the whole thing pre-Civil War. 

At the moment -- because it IS quite neat to have Pietro, Siryn and Siryn's glitches more or less under control, I'm leaning towards option A: violate X #187 until it tears in half. 

I wish we *could* just invent a relapse. But I'm not sure we have that kind of authority, and I don't think we should be coming up with workarounds that basically amount to writing fanfic, when there ARE other solutions. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 02 Aug 2006 01:51 pm    
By Peter Fabricius

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And, wait, now I'm a little confused. 

Although I don't particularly like this rationalization, I just remembered that Marvel has pulled something very like it before. One of the Official Indexes to the X-Men decided that Marvel Team-Up Annual #1 occured between pages of UX #101, between the shuttle crash where Jean announced herself to be Phoenix, then collapsed, and her subsequent scenes in the hospital. They stated that Jean got better off-panel, appeared in M/TU@ #1, then relapsed and was taken *back* to the hospital, where we saw her in the rest of UX #101. 

So there's a precedent for this type of thing -- but, my question is, do WE have the right do do this? That was Marvel making an official statement, this is a bunch of fans looking for a way to make the awkward look prettier. 
<<<


Actually this is stated in the Marvel Comics Index 9A, by George Olshevsky. 
This was not published by Marvel.
_________________
Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Posted: 02 Aug 2006 07:09 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Yes, it was -- it was stated in The Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 1, issue 5, page 20, under "Comments". It was further reiterated in The Wolverine Saga #2. 

That said -- I *still* don't like the idea of us assuming we have the authority to presume such things. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 02 Aug 2006 07:36 pm    
By Dhall

Jeph, I've just read X-Men 187. Where is this gap you keep mentioning? 

There is no gap in 187. 

The issue goes like this: 
Lorna screams, and wakes up, wearing a purple robe. She passes out, Bobby picks her up, the team has a conversation. 

Nighttime: Sunfire and Gambit attack the mansion. Lorna is still out, still in the same robe. A fight breaks out. Lorna regains conciousness, and convinces Sunfire that she's not going with them. 

Later....Lorna tells Bobby and Alex that she's leaving tonight. She's still wearing her purple hospital robe and bare feet. She has not had time to change or pack. 


I don't see a gap that allows Lorna to be awake. 

Why can't we just assume that despite what Lorna says, she doesn't leave that same night? (And then after she hears about Banshee, decideds to stay for the funeral.) Can't DG occur between X 187 and 188? 

Dave H

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 03:47 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yes, I think we're losing sight of the fact that Lorna also has a speaking part earlier on in X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS, during the main action of the series. (Other than the first scene in issue #1 and the funeral epilogue in issue #6, the action runs through without a break.) 

Since the main action of XDG features the death of Briggs, the whole storyline has to take place after "Blood of Apocalypse", and therefore Lorna must appear in the main story (let alone the funeral, if you count it) after returning to the mansion in X 186, and before leaving it as she plans to do in X 187. 

It certainly seems to me that it's much simpler and more straightforward to infer that Lorna was delayed in leaving, than to have her waking and relapsing. 

And of course, having appeared in the main story, she's straight out of the door - as she planned - long before the funeral. 
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 08:25 am    
By jephyork
Director

Dhall, I don't own the issue, but I was informed earlier in the thread that "Lorna's purple robe" later in the issue is a coloring error -- she's been DRAWN with different clothes, but the colorist has colored them like the purple robe. Is this incorrect? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 09:01 am    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Dhall, I don't own the issue, but I was informed earlier in the thread that "Lorna's purple robe" later in the issue is a coloring error -- she's been DRAWN with different clothes, but the colorist has colored them like the purple robe. Is this incorrect? 
<<<

No, but I'd still rather push the gap back and pretend that her complete lack of clothes (remember, she packed her clothes for her round-the-world trip with Havok and he only brought one suitcase back) bar her costume and possibly after-effects of her coma forced her to stick around, and Rogue and Pulse were mistaken in thinking she had left. 

Plus, as YOU were at pains to point out to em, isn't it "what is" rather than "what should be" that's important 

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 09:17 am    
By Dhall

She's still wearing some kind of purple tunic thing, it may not be the same robe, but travelling clothes it's not. Also the whole lack of shoes thing, doesn't exactly scream I'm leaving, I'm leaving. 

The final scene with Lorna's leaving speech seems more to me that she's just being a bit of a drama queen. I think that at the moment she said it, she truly meant it, but the realities of packing, where she's going, etc. don't seem to have entered her mind. It's not too big a stretch to imagine that it took her a day or two to get ready, and that she ended up staying for the funeral. 

I'll take another look at Lorna's attire when I get home tonight.

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 09:31 am    
By Somebody

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
It's not too big a stretch to imagine that it took her a day or two to get ready, and that she ended up staying for the funeral. 
<<<

If we end up saying, as seems to be the case now, that DG takes place starting the day after X187, then it's believable that she ended up staying the couple of days needed to appear in DG3, but not the couple of days + a week for the funeral per the comic, or the couple of days + three weeks Paul B wants to say - especially since UX475 retcons her presence at the funeral away!

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 12:48 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
especially since UX475 retcons her presence at the funeral away! 
<<<

Now that's an opinion that I don't share. She's clearly at the funeral. 

As I see it our options are either: 

A) Find a gap between pages of X 187, which means that we would have to accept the multiple recovery & relapse for Lorna theory. 

B) Decide, that Lorna thinks better of storming off immediately, like she suggests she is about to do in X 187, and place some things between X 187, and Lorna leaving. 

or 

C) Lorna storms off in a huff, leaving the mansion the night of 187, goes into town for a few days (probably for shoe shopping, booking tickets to Egypt, etc.) Then goes back to the mansion to search old mission files, etc. in an attempt to narrow down where to start looking for Apocalypse (Eqypt is a big place...) hears about Banshee's death, and decides to come back for the funeral, prior to leaving the country. 

or 
D) some other combination of reasons why Lorna could both leave the mansion, but still be in the country until after the funeral. 

Is option D really so unreasonable? If Lorna's flying to Egypt on a commercial flight, as a mutant and a member of the X-Men, might she not have to get some type of governmental approval from Val Cooper's office? 

Can we not come up with a dozen scenarios allowing Lorna to leave the mansion, but not the country right away, at the end of X 187?

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 04:01 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Dhall, I like where you're going, but I should point out that Option A does NOT necessarily involve assuming multiple recoveries and a relapse. 

When Lorna leaves in X #187 -- does she SAY where she's going? I mean, she could have just gotten a hotel room in Salem Center for a while, THEN gone to Egypt. 

Again, I haven't fully read any of the books in question -- but from what I remember of Lorna in X:DG, she was just hanging out at the mansion like she belonged there. Not in a hurry to leave, not snappy at anyone. If I'm remembering correctly, I find this behavior hard to reconcile with the Lorna that was leaving in X #187. I'm not sure how I feel about assuming that she came back for X:DG after leaving in X #187. 

However, if there MUST be a large gap between the rest of X:DG and the funeral, I do like the notion that she left for a hotel, came back briefly for the funeral, and then departed for Egypt. 

Maybe a compromise could be this scenario: Lorna wakes up in X #187 and hasn't made up her mind whether or not to stay. Then, the bulk of X:DG happens -- and, disgusted by yet MORE X-Men drama, Lorna decides that if she doesn't leave that night she's never leaving, and storms out in the last half of X #187. She gets a hotel, and plans her trip to Egypt while things like Civil War and Storm's wedding happen -- and before she goes, she grudgingly fulfills her last X-Men obligation by attending Banshee's funeral. Then, she's off to Egypt until UX #475. 

How's that? 

X #181-186. Briggs appears, Lorna returns and falls unconscious. 
X #187 until Lorna awakens. 
X:DG #1-6, except funeral. Briggs dies, Lorna is around. 
X #187, the end. Lorna leaves for a hotel. 
(All the stuff Paul wants to shove between X:DG and the funeral, like Civil War #1 and X-Factor #9 and Black Panther #18.) Lorna's in a hotel. 
X:DG #6, the funeral. Lorna grudgingly attends, then leaves for Egypt. 

Yes/no? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 06:44 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
How's that? 
<<<

Quite good. 

I should point out that I don't care what her reasons are for doing it, I think that a sequence of events that has Lorna leave the mansion, and come back for X:DG before leaving for Egypt, is going to make the most sense here. 

We can speculate about her reasons all we like, but that gets us into fanfic, what's important is a) is it possible b) does it make the most sense chronologically? 


Quote: 
>>>
Option A does NOT necessarily involve assuming multiple recoveries and a relapse.  
<<<

Now I don't want to say my option is the only way things could happen, but I don't understand where in X 187, there could a) be a break, and b) Lorna is concious, without assuming a recovery/relapse scenario? 

Let's look again at X 187: 

Page 1-4: Sunfire and Gambit 

Page 5: Lorna screams, is awake, wearing purple robe, no shoes or slippers. On Page 5-8 Lorna causes an explosion, knocking herself unconcious again. So no break in the first 8 pages. 

Pages 8-10 panels 1-3: Conversations that continue directly from page 8. 

You could put a break here, but you would have to assume a recovery/replapse scenario for Lorna. 

Page 10 Panels 4-5, Nightfall:We see soldiers being knocked out 
Page 11 : Lorna lying in bed unconcious, wearing purple robe. continues into 
Page 12-15 : Sunfire and Gambit attack the team. 
Page 16 : continues on, We see Lorna in bed, then waking up, still in purple robe, bare legs, bare feet. 
Page 17-18 : Fight continues, Lorna declares that she belongs to herself. 
Page 19: Sunfoire grabs Gambit and leaves. 

So, no break between Pages 10-19. 

Page 20: Caption says "Later" Havok has a conversation with Val about security. "The new sentinel squad is due any time." 
Lorna shows up, still wearing her purple robe, bare legs, no shoes. Her hand is clutching her top together. (Clearly this is still her hospital garb.) 
Bobby: "Lorna says she's leaving tonight." 

Lorna: " I know how this place works, If I don't leave tonight something will happen, and I'll end up staying forever." 
Page 21: more dialogue, about finding Apocalypse and asking him why 
Lorna: I know where I'll start looking." 

Since Lorna's still in her hospital robe, there's no break between pages 19 and 22. 

Page 22: Gus and Rogue speculate about where Lorna is going "Egypt probably" and if they have a future together. 

Page 23: Sunfire and Gambit meet Sinister. 



So without assuming a recovery/relapse where do you put a break? 

If we do assume a recovery/relapse then the break point would have to be in between panels of page 10, or between X 186 and 187. 

I'm not saying that we can't or shouldn't make a break point, just that we should explore other alternatives, and if they can't work, then by all means put a break in 187, but if you do, you'll have to assume at least one recovery/relapse. 

Dave H

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 09:35 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Lorna: " I know how this place works, If I don't leave tonight something will happen, and I'll end up staying forever." 
Page 21: more dialogue, about finding Apocalypse and asking him why 
Lorna: "I know where I'll start looking."  
<<<

Lorna does say she's leaving tonight. It's urgent for her to get out or she'll be sucked into staying. She also says she knows where to start looking for Apocalypse but she doesn't say she'll start doing that right away. She could pack some belongings, including the blue bustier/purple cape ensemble, and hie to a nearby hotel to prepare for her trip and plan her strategy for tracking Apocalypse. A couple of nights later, we can imagine that she returns to the Institute in the blue/purple ensemble to grab some extra things. It's then that Alex sees her in X:DG 3 ("Lorna? Is that really you?" might be interpreted as "I've been seeing things...and didn't you leave?"). BTS, seeing that weird things are going on, Lorna tells herself not to get pulled back in and leaves with what she came to retrieve. 

But she still doesn't go to Egypt yet. No, she stays stateside for weeks, out of touch with the X-Men. (Fill in your own blanks here. Maybe as a way to prepare herself for her journey, she finds it necessary to have a number of sessions with Doc Samson about her state of being after the whole Horseman thing and for green hair fashion tips. Samson is in New York, as seen in Civil War comics. The sessions take a while.) During these weeks, the Stamford tragedy happens, Civil War erupts, Pietro shows up in X-Factor, Spidey unmasks, and T'Challa and Ororo are wed. 

Then somehow Lorna hears about the funeral and decides to attend before heading to Egypt. At the funeral, as unlikely as it may seem, she totally misses seeing Xavier walking and no one tells her the news. Distracted? Sure... BTS, she confirms to some teammates that she indeed is Egypt-bound. Scott gives Xavier the old heave-ho. 

Lorna goes to Egypt. The rejected Xavier finally resolves to form a team to go after Vulcan, who would have left for the Shi'Ar Empire weeks before. D'oh! They know to go to Egypt to find Lorna. When they do find her, Lorna is surprised that Xavier can walk ("Professor, you can walk again?"), but she's not necessary surprised that Xavier is back, just that he's in Egypt ("The professor's here?"). 


Hey, we're going to have to make up some BTS explanations for scenes we actually see in the comics*, so is this scenario better than multiple recoveries and relapses? 

*Yes, we have the power. IMHO, we have less power to dismiss the evidence that appears in the comics (e.g. let's ignore Lorna at the funeral).
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 09:55 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Page 20: Caption says "Later" Havok has a conversation with Val about security. "The new sentinel squad is due any time." 
Lorna shows up, still wearing her purple robe, bare legs, no shoes. Her hand is clutching her top together. (Clearly this is still her hospital garb.) 
Bobby: "Lorna says she's leaving tonight." 
Lorna: " I know how this place works, If I don't leave tonight something will happen, and I'll end up staying forever." 

Since Lorna's still in her hospital robe, there's no break between pages 19 and 22. 

So without assuming a recovery/relapse where do you put a break? 
<<<

Well, normally I would have said "between pp.19-20", and suggest that she just put the damned robe back ON (because I can't get a straight answer as to whether it's the same robe, or a coloring error over different clothes) ... but I just noticed something. 

Question: were ALL the Sentinels currently at the mansion destroyed in X #181-186? When Havok says, in X #187 p.20, that the new Sentinels should be arriving shortly -- was the school *completely* bereft of Sentinels at that time? 

If ALL the Sentinels were, in fact, destroyed in X #181-186, then -- we CAN'T place X:DG between pp.19-20 of X #187 -- because there are Sentinels in X:DG, and they explicitly haven't yet arrived on X #187 p.20, when Lorna announces once again that she's leaving. 

If all the Sentinels were destroyed in "Blood of Apocalypse", then we have literally NO CHOICE but to place all of X:DG after X #187 ... and make up our own rationales about why Lorna briefly returned to the mansion twice. 

My question is ... why didn't anyone notice this before? It's been five pages we've been debating this f**king Lorna thing, and we're JUST NOW pointing out chronological clues like "there are no Sentinels around during the gap we're looking at"? Ugh. 

What's the extent of Lorna's appearance in X:DG #3? Can someone post or quote the entire exchange? I want to read it and see if it "feels" feasible that she's just back there to pick up some clothes, or if Havok's "is it really you?" line can sound like he's surprised to see her because she left rather than because he's hallucinating. 

Also, if someone can confirm the number of destroyed Sentinels in X #181-186, that'd be great. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 10:19 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Also, if someone can confirm the number of destroyed Sentinels in X #181-186, that'd be great.  
<<<

I don't have a head count, but I can confirm that we see no Sentinels in X 187, and per Val Cooper's dialogue there are none. 

Havok: " I thought you O*n*e* guys were supposed to be guarding the place." 
Val: "IF the Sentinels had been here, they wouldn't have gotten away like that. Wouldn't have gotten in so easy either." 

Havok: " We can get along without the Sentinels." 

Val: "Maybe, but don't get used to it. The NEW Sentinel Squad is due any time." 

So according to Val (and she would know) there are NO sentinels present during X 187. 

Also, I believe that Lorna's wearing the same purple robe throught the whole issue. The length might vary a little from scene to scene, but it's the same robe. 

And from X:DG3 : 

Havok just saw a vision of Xavier and his father talking. 
Lorna comes up behing him 

Lorna: "Alex? Are you all right in here? I though you were in a fight or--" 
Alex: "Lorna? Is that really you?" 
Lorna: " Uh..Yeah I think so. Why Wouldn't it be?" 
Alex: " Then it hasn't happend to you? I hope the others are as lucky" 

Here's a thought, maybe Lorna came back tot the mansion to get her costume.....

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Posted: 04 Aug 2006 02:38 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Good point... the absence of Sentinels does indeed seems to rule out X:DG taking place between pages of X 187. 

So... we now know exactly where X:DG takes place relative to X-MEN. It's after "Blood of Apocalypse" (because Briggs is alive in that story), and therefore it's after X 186. There are Sentinels at the Mansion again, so it's after X 187. And Professor X only returns to the team in X:DG, so it's before X 188 (where he's present at the Mansion). 

Therefore, X:DG (all of it) takes place between X 187-188. That's a lengthy gap in terms of the internal narrative of X-MEN; the only glitch is that Lorna is still present at the Mansion in X:DG 3 despite having left in X 187, but she must simply have come back.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 04 Aug 2006 06:18 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

So let's recap: 

X 186 -- Sentinels destroyed 
X 187 -- New Sentinels not there yet; Lorna leaves 
X:DG 1- X:DG (1-24) -- Vulcan hit by Collective energy; New Sentinels present; Lorna returns briefly before Xavier shows up; Sean dies 
A4 16-20 -- Collective energy follow-up 
XF3 7 -- Scott informs Theresa of Sean's death 
CW 1 (1-7) -- the Stamford incident 
CW 2 (8p4) -- the registration deadline, which, according to W3 43, occurs "two weeks" after Stamford 
XF3 8 -- after the registration deadline and before Spidey unmasks 
XF3 9 -- same day as XF3 8; X-Men want to thrash Pietro, then leave him in X-Factor's hands 
ASM 533 (and countless other titles) -- Spidey unmasks 
CW 3 (2-3) -- after Spidey unmasks; Reed approaches T'Challa, so before the wedding 
BP4 18 -- the wedding, in which the above is referenced; Ororo is surprised by the walking Xavier; Betsy's there, so before XCAL4 8 
X:DG 6 (25-28) -- the funeral; Lorna back again but doesn't see Xavier; Pietro there but it's okay; T'Challa and Ororo there; Scott tells Xavier he's not welcome 
X 188 -- rejected Xavier finds Lorna, who's surprised that he can walk 

Now...how about NX 25-28? Because Scott asks Forge if hes going to attend Ororos wedding in NX 27, this story arc must occur before BP4 18. Sentinels are in this story arc. 

And...how about UX 472-474 and UX@2 1? As noted in another thread, this story (force) fits between pages 20 and 21 of BP4 15. 

I'll work on seeing where these story arcs fall, and I'll incorporate this week's comics into the scheme of things before posting an updated draft of a CW chronology.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 04 Aug 2006 07:09 am    
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
X 188 -- rejected Xavier finds Lorna, who's surprised that he can walk 
<<<

No, that's UX 475. 
But no worries, X 188 is before UX 475, since Xavier is still at Xavier's. (By X 189, he's gone.) 
Also, we have to place the various FBs in UX 475, where Xavier recruits his team. After the funeral, obviously. 


Quote: 
>>>
Now...how about NX 25-28 ? 
<<<

I'm very cautious about the current act of New X-Men, since solicitations hint at a reset button at the end.

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Posted: 04 Aug 2006 07:44 am    
By jephyork
Director

True. I'd be wary of NX #20-31 for now. 

By the way, a while back Marvel teased us that the Sentinels were getting replaced with crazy Mecha-looking things. Have those Mecha-Sentinels appeared anywhere yet, or was that idea quietly discarded? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 04 Aug 2006 07:55 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
By the way, a while back Marvel teased us that the Sentinels were getting replaced with crazy Mecha-looking things. Have those Mecha-Sentinels appeared anywhere yet, or was that idea quietly discarded? 
<<<


They appeared in "Blood of Apocalypse" and one appeared on the last page of "Civil War: X-Men" #1. Yet we also see regular Sentinels in "Civil War: X-Men" as well...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

Last edited by Kevin W. on 04 Aug 2006 08:50 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 04 Aug 2006 08:42 am    
By jephyork
Director

Okay, so they're working alongside the original models, and we don't have to worry about organizing things so all the Mecha appearances come after all the regular-model appearances. Good. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 04 Aug 2006 10:16 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Now...how about NX 25-28? Because Scott asks Forge if hes going to attend Ororos wedding in NX 27, this story arc must occur before BP4 18. Sentinels are in this story arc. 
<<<

Well, leaving aside the possibility of a reset button, NX 28 has Emma Frost referring to her conversation with Iron Man in CW 3, doesn't it? So that would leave you to place the arc between CW3 and BP4 18. (There are obvious problems here in finding breaks in the NX storyline, but of all the various continuity references it's made, the CIVIL WAR material in NX 28 is the most prominent and inescapable.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 04 Aug 2006 11:29 am    
By jephyork
Director

By the way, I just want to state how glad I am that this Lorna thing finally fell into place. I wish we'd noticed that Sentinel line in X #187 sooner, but otherwise I think we did a great job slogging through the various possibilities and points of view without getting TOO contentious. Thanks to all that participated! 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 04 Aug 2006 06:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Ditto. I was even reminded of those heady days dealing with the Kang War! Ah, good times... 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 04 Aug 2006 06:41 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, a revised recap (thanks, guys): 

X 186 -- Sentinels destroyed 
X 187 -- New Sentinels not there yet; Lorna leaves 
X: DG 1- X: DG (1-24) -- Vulcan hit by Collective energy; New Sentinels present; Lorna returns briefly before Xavier shows up; Sean dies 
A4 16-20 -- Collective energy follow-up 
XF3 7 -- Scott informs Theresa of Sean's death 
CW 1 (1-7) -- the Stamford incident 
CW 2 (8p4) -- the registration deadline, which, according to W3 43, occurs "two weeks" after Stamford 
XF3 8 -- after the registration deadline and before Spidey unmasks 
XF3 9 -- same day as XF3 8; X-Men want to thrash Pietro, then leave him in X-Factor's hands 
ASM 533 (and countless other titles) -- Spidey unmasks 
CW 3 (2-3) -- after Spidey unmasks; Reed approaches T'Challa, so before the wedding 
CW 3 (4-5) -- Stark tries to recruit the X-Men 
NX 25-28 -- after Stark's recruitment attempt; before the wedding 
BP4 18 -- the wedding, in which the above is referenced; Ororo is surprised by the walking Xavier; Betsy's there, so before XCAL4 8 
X: DG 6 (25-28) -- the funeral; Lorna back again but doesn't see Xavier; Pietro there but it's okay; T'Challa and Ororo there; Scott tells Xavier he's not welcome 
UX 475 -- rejected Xavier finds Lorna, who's surprised that he can walk 
UX 476 -- Xavier and crew into space 
X 188-189 -- Mystique impersonates the missing Xavier 

(and let's not forget green-hair therapy with Lorna and Samson between pages 24 and 25 of X: DG 6  ) 

Now, back to that CW chronology...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 04 Aug 2006 11:22 pm
By Jason Doty

One small glitch. X 188 comes before UX 475, because Xavier is in that issue. Mystique impersonates him in X 189 to cover the Uncanny team after Xavier leaves on his mission.

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Posted: 04 Aug 2006 11:40 pm    
By Hotcharokey

Paul, 

You have XF3 9 occurring before CW 3. However, at the top of page 20 of XF3 9, Cyclops mentions Emma's discussion with Stark, indicating that the confrontation between the X-Men and X-Factor occurs after pp. 4-5 of CW 3. 

I suggest placing a break between pages 13 and 14 of XF3 9. Pages 1-13 would occur the same day as XF3 8 right where you placed them, but pages 14-21 would occur after CW 3, page 5.

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Posted: 05 Aug 2006 04:38 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
One small glitch. X 188 comes before UX 475, because Xavier is in that issue. 
<<<

Not necessarily. Professor X's team don't leave Earth until UX 476. There's nothing to prevent them returning to the Mansion between UX 475-476, allowing Xavier's appearance in X 188 to take place in publication order.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 05 Aug 2006 04:56 am    
By JD

And there's actually UX 476-FB, "earlier that morning [of UX 476]", where Xavier picks out Darwin at the Institute. 

So the sequence would be : 
UX 475-FB : ("two days" before UX 475) Xavier recruits Nightcrawler, Warpath and Marvel Girl and starts looking for Polaris 
UX 475 : Xavier's team rescue Polaris, no Darwin in sight 
X 188 : Cyclops is surprised to see that Xavier is still there 
UX 476-FB : they argue about Darwin, Xavier and Havok pick him out 
UX 476 : Xavier's team steals a Shi'ar spacecraft and go into space 

Wow, that's really nicely in publication order, too.

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Posted: 06 Aug 2006 04:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Does the following sequence of events work? 

UNCANNY X-MEN #475  FB (3-5) 
One day, shortly after (perhaps the day after) XG 6 (25-28). It is two days before UX 475. A Sentinel stands vigil at the Xavier Institute. Xavier tells Beast that Scott wants him out of the Institute and Hank offers his support. Xavier asks Kurt for assistance with a mission. Green trees at Westchester. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #475  FB (9-11) 
Probably the same day as UX 475-FB (3-5). James Proudstar practices with a vibranium knife that Ororo left him. Xavier invites him to go on a mission. Green trees at Westchester. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #475  FB (14-15) 
Probably the same day as UX 475-FB (9-11). This flashback probably occurs before X 188-FB (4-21). Xavier asks Rachel to go on a mission. 

X-MEN v2 #188  FB (1-3) 
One night, twenty-four hours before X 188. A battered, fearful Sabretooth, bereft of his healing power, shows up in a Nogales, Mexico bar, where a man arranges his passage into the U.S. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #475 (1-2) 
One day, two days after UX 475-FB (3-5). This story must occur after X 188-FB (4-21). In Egypt, Lorna is pursued by enemies of Apocalypse in high-tech fighting machines. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #475 (6-20p4) 
The same day as UX 475 (1-2). Xaviers team of X-Men (Havok, Marvel Girl, Warpath, and Nightcrawler) come to her rescue. Lorna is recruited for Xaviers mission  to stop Vulcan from wreaking vengeance on the ShiAr Empire. Lorna is surprised that Xavier can walk. Vulcan flies through space. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #477 (1-6p2) 
The same day as UX 475 (6-20). It is at least a week after XG 6 (1-24), and probably far longer than that. In space, Vulcan approaches a ShiAr ship. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #475 (20p5-21) 
The same day as UX 477 (1-6). Vulcan blasts the ShiAr ship. Aboard the X-jet, Xavier outlines his teams mission. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #477 (6p3) 
The same day as UX 475 (20-21). The ShiAr ship explodes. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #475 (22) 
The same day as UX 477 (6p3). ShiAr corpses float around the wrecked ship. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #477 (7-18) 
The same day as UX 475 (22). This segment occurs before UX 476 and days before UX 477 (19-22). Vulcan asks a surviving ShiAr how far it is to the ShiAr homeworld and he tells him that the only way to make it there is through stargates activated by ShiAr craft. Vulcan kills his informant and detects three more ShiAr vessels. He destroys two of them and forces the third to surrender. He commandeers the ship and tells the crew to set a course for Shandilar and to destroy star-gates behind them as they travel. 
X-MEN v2 #188  FB (4-17p4) 
The night of the day after X 188-FB (1-3). This flashback must occur before UX 476. As a Sentinel looks on and Beast monitors from the Institute, the X-Men (Scott, Emma, Rogue, Bobby, Sam) assault a hospital in which mutant DNA is spliced into baseline humans. There they retrieve the comatose Lady Mastermind and Karima Shapandar. Upon their return to the Institute, Xavier asks to have a word with Scott. Scott replies, Professor. Youre still here, and Xavier responds, For the moment, yes. Xavier criticizes Scott for what he perceives as Rogues recklessness in the assault, but Scott dismisses him. Meanwhile, Sangre and Serafina arrive at the bar where Sabretooth had been and, detecting his prior presence there, destroy the entire block, intentionally leaving a little girl as a lone survivor and false witness. They catch up to Sabretooth on the Mexico/U.S. border and lose him in a skirmish. 

UNCANNY X-MEN #476  FB 
Probably the morning after UX 475. Xavier asks Scott to let Darwin go with him on his mission, but Scott refuses. Scott and Xavier argue and Alex arrives to support Xavier. Scott relents. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #476 
The same morning as UX 476-FB. This story must occur after UX 477 (7-18) and X 188-FB (4-17) and before X 188-FB (17-21). Xaviers X-Men go to a secret ShiAr base in upstate New York to find a spacecraft. There, they battle and defeat mutated former prisoners of the ShiAr who were left at the base. The X-Men blast off in a spaceship and jump through a star-gate beyond the moon, only to discover that the remaining stargates that lead to the ShiAr empire have been destroyed. Green grass and trees in New York. 
X-MEN v2 #188  FB (17p5-21) 
Perhaps the night of the day after X 188-FB (4-17). Since Mystique impersonates Xavier in X 189, this flashback must occur after UX 476. At the Institute, Scott asks Rogue to lead a rapid response unit. Rogue agrees and selects Sam, Bobby, and Mystique for the team. Just then, Sabretooth arrives at the Institute, runs into a Sentinel, and asks for sanctuary. Green grass and trees at Westchester. Full moon. 
X-MEN v2 #188 
The same night as X 188-FB (17-21). It is twenty-four hours after X 188-FB (1-3). A TV news reporter reports on the decimation in Nogales, and the little girl who survived claims the X-Men are responsible. 
X-MEN v2 #189 
The same night as X 188. This story occurs a week after X 189-FB, seven months after W3 28, and more than thirteen weeks (three months) after XCAL3 13 (19-20). Sangre and his teammates (Fuego, Serafina, Perro, Aguja) assault a SHIELD holding facility in Alaska and free Northstar from his reconditioning. Serafina interfaces with the computers there and plants false evidence that the X-Men were responsible for the assault. At the Institute, Sabretooth insists on speaking to Xavier (so obviously the word is out that he returned) and Emma detects Creeds fear. Val Cooper talks to someone she believes to be Xavier about the Nogales situation, and after she leaves, Xavier is revealed as Mystique. Sam tells Raven she had to assume Xaviers identity to give the prof and the others a head start. He also tells her that Rogue picked her to be on her team. In space, a ShiAr scout ship detects Vulcan flying away from the Terran stargate and something big net of energy moving toward earth. The energy net obliterates the scout ship. Northstar appears in western Canada and fetches his suicidal sister while Sangre, Fuego, and Aguja return to their base, the Camara Roja Vault. Karima awakens in the Institutes med lab, bereft of her memory of the last thirteen weeks (three months). Regan Wyngarde remains comatose, and Logan and Rogue talk. Perro and Serefina attack the Institute with Northstar and Aurora. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
X-MEN v2 #190 
The same night as X 189. This story must occur before CW:X 1 (1-16).
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Aug 2006 06:29 pm    
By Jason Doty

Since manythings will also be going on during Civil War, I guess we should do our best to place all the comics that fit in this time frame as we go. This weeks New X-Men no.29 takes place before the wedding of Storm and Black Panther and after the Blood of Apokalypse storyline.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Aug 2006 09:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

You bet. I hope to post a comprehensive update over the weekend as a basis for reaction and commentary on where we are so far.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Aug 2006 06:14 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Here's my latest attempt at a Civil War chronology. I haven't included CW:FL 5/4 yet, as it appears to tie into a Civil War chapter that hasn't been published yet. Any feedback is appreciated. 

Tuesday 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (1-6) 
One morning. Logan fights the Crusader and his flunkies aboard a federal treasury plane they hijacked. Logan brings the plane down in a crash landing. He wakes up three hours later and gets directions to the nearest bar from an FAA body-hauler. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (1-7p1) 
The same school day as W3 42 (1-6). This segment must occur after A4 20 and THING2 8 and probably occurs a couple of days before CW 1 (13-17). According to CW:OS, this segment occurs months after H3 92 (1p4-1p6). This segment occurs after IHM:MI 1 (5-10) and after Novas departure from the New Warriors in A:N 1. It occurs before the flashbacks in S-H4 8 and two weeks before W3 43. Three months after breaking out of Rykers, Cobalt Man, Coldheart, Speedfreek, and Nitro are staked out at a house in Stamford by the New Warriors, who are filming an episode for the second season of their reality TV show. Despite the fact that theyre outmatched, the Warriors attack for the sake of ratings. In the fracas Nitro prepares to explode. Green grass and trees in Connecticut. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1  FB (2p2-2p4) 
The same day as CW 1 (1-7). Cameraman John Fernandez stands before Nitro as he explodes. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (7p2-7p4) 
The same day as CW:FL 1-FB (2p2-2p4). This segment occurs two weeks before TB 103 (1p1). Nitros explosion killing and wounding an estimated 800-900 people, including schoolchildren. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1/2  FB (8p6) 
The same day as CW 1 (7p2-7p4). Speedball absorbs the brunt of the explosion and is blown into the sky. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1  FB (2p5) 
The same day as CW:FL 1/2-FB (8p6). It is probably a few days before CW:FL 1 (1-5). John Fernandez lay dead. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532  FB (2-3) 
The same day as CW:FL 1/2. While flying in a plane, Tony and Peter find out about the Stamford disaster. 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (7-11p1) 
The same day as ASM 532-FB (2-3). This segment probably occurs after FFS 1. As Logan orders beer at the bar, he gets an alert on his Avengers pager and sees TV news coverage of the Stamford explosion. In Latveria, Doom views a tape of the Warriors fight and takes an interest in Nitro. Logan shows up in Stamford and helps in the rescue/recovery effort. Green trees in Latveria. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (8-9) 
The same day as W3 42 (7-11). The Avengers (Cap, Cage, Iron Man, Spider-Woman, Logan, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, Falcon w/goatee), Goliath (Foster), the FF, and the X-Men (Scott, Rachel, Colossus, Iceman) help the authorities search for survivors in Stamford. This occasion may be the last time that Carol has talked to Cap, a couple weeks before MSM2 5 (20-21). 
CIVIL WAR #1 (10p1) ~ WOLVERINE v3 #42 (11p2) 
The same day as CW 1 (8-9). Iron Man tells Cap the authorities have a lead on Nitro. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (10p2-11p2) 
The same day as CW 1 (10p1). Iron Man discusses the New Warriors bad judgment with Cap. Rachel levitates some debris. 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (11p3) 
The same day as CW 1 (10-11). Logan dwells on scapegoats for the tragedy. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (11p3-11p5) 
The same day as W3 42 (11p3). Logan notices that the Sentinels have arrived. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (12p1-12p2) ~ WOLVERINE v3 #42 (11p4) 
The same day as CW 1 (11p3-11p5). Logan remarks about the Sentinels presence and Lex notes that theyre just doing their job. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (12p3-12p5) 
The same day as CW 1 (12p1-12p2). As they work, the heroes discuss the repercussions of the tragedy. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532  FB (4-5) 
The same day as CW 1 (12p3-12p5). Two hours after ASM 532-FB (2-3), after all the bodies have been retrieved from the rubble, Spidey notices that onlookers are staring at the heroes with hatred. The president arrives by helicopter. 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (12) 
The same day as W3 42 (11p4). It is days before W3 42 (13-15) and W3 42 (17-19). A suburban couple is summoned by the Operations Directorate. It is not a Thursday. Green grass and trees in New York. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532  FB (6-12) 
The same day as W3 42 (12). This flashback must occur before SENSM2 29-FB. Three hours after ASM 532-FB (4-5), Peter accompanies Stark to the White House, where Tony meets with the president and tells him that he is Iron Man. After the meeting, Tony explains the new reality of superhuman registration to Peter and asks him to consider revealing his secret identity to comply with the Registration Act, which the president is expected to sign very soon (so soon that Tony stays in DC to meet with the president again after he signs the act, but these plans may change). Peter flies back to New York in a Stark jet. Green grass and trees in Washington, DC. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1/2 (1-6) 
The same night as CW:FL 1-FB (2p5). Two guys discover Speedball barely conscious in a wheat field in upstate New York. The energy absorbed by Speedball is released, killing the two guys. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #531 (21-22) 
The same night as ASM 532-FB (6-12). This segment must occur before XF3 8. As M.J. showers in Avengers Tower (no Watchtower spires), Peter (after a stressful day) watches a TV news report about the tragedy in Stamford. A sports report on the TV indicates that its Major League Baseball season. Full moon. 

Wednesday 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1/2 (7-11) 
The day after CW:FL 1/2 (1-6). It is long enough before CW:FL 2/2 for Robbie to recover and regrow some of his hair. A powerless Speedball comes to in a SHIELD medical facility and is arrested. 

Thursday 
SHE-HULK v4 #8  FB (8p4) 
One day, after CW 1 (12p3-12p5). In the wake of the Stamford tragedy, Hindsight Lad has started his hate site Destroy All Warriors and sets up a fake attack on his property. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (13-17) 
One day, shortly after CW 1 (12p3-12p5). This segment must occur before ASM 532 (20-22) and FF 538-FB. It is referred to as having occurred last-- (likely month) in CW:YA&R 1. Larry King interviews She-Hulk about a proposed ban on super-heroes. At a memorial service for the Stamford victims, Miriam Sharpe, the mother of a boy who was killed, spits at Tony Stark and blames him for the recklessness of vigilante super-heroes. Present are J. Jonah Jameson and photographer Peter Parker. Perhaps that night, Johnny Storm goes clubbing and is beaten into a coma by a throng of people who blame him for the Stamford tragedy. Green trees in Connecticut and light clothing in New York. 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (13-15) 
One night, days after W3 42 (12). With hatred and fear of superhumans mounting, Logan is asked to leave a Japanese restaurant in New York and confronts a hostile group outside. 

Friday 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1 (1-5) 
One rainy day, probably a few days after CW:FL 1-FB (2p5). The staff of the Daily Bugle attend John Fernandezs funeral, then retire to a bar to discuss the Stamford tragedy, the Superhuman Registration Act, and Jonahs reaction to it. Green grass and trees in New York. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (18-19p4) 
The day after CW 1 (13-17). This segment occurs before S-H4 8 (1-10) and probably before TB 102-FB (1-2). It must occur after X 186. It is two weeks before the superhuman registration proposal goes to a vote in Congress, but it appears that Congress acts on the proposal more quickly; the swift response is noted in CW 1 (32-33). With Johnny in the hospital, 23 (I count 24-25) super-heroes  Reed, Sue, Ben, Strange, Iron Man, Cage, Wasp, Yellowjacket, Falcon, Nighthawk (with the thick forehead stripe seen in THING2 1-3), Spidey, Spider-Woman, Scott, Logan, Hercules, She-Hulk, Valkyrie, Patriot, Hulking, Kate, Cassie, the new Daredevil, Felicia, Rachel  gather at the Baxter Building to debate about superhuman registration and the group is dividing into two camps. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (19p5-19p6) ~ WOLVERINE v3 #42 (16p1-16p3) 
The same evening as CW 1 (18-19). At 6:36 PM, Falcon objects to the infringement of superhuman rights, but Yellowjacket remarks that superhumans are lucky to have been tolerated for as long as they have. Logan remarks that masks are necessary in a hostile world, and the Thing inquires whether Johnny would have ended up in the hospital last night if some superhumans werent giving everyone a bad name. 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (16p4) 
The same evening as CW 1 (19p5-19p6). Someone answers, I dont know. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (20) 
The same evening as W3 42 (16p4). Spidey expresses concern for the safety of loved ones if superhumans identities were outed. Nighthawk wonders if theyre being paranoid, but the new Daredevil remarks that this is the end of the way heroes do business. 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (17-19) 
The same evening as CW 1 (20). It is days after CW 1 (13). Iron Man tells Logan that SHIELD is withholding intel about Nitro and Logan is itching to get him. Logan and Cage have a discussion about registration and civil liberties. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (21-28) 
The same evening as W3 42 (17-19). In a helicarrier above New York, Cap meets with Maria Hill and warns her that the issue of registration will result in war between factions of the super-hero community. When Hill suggests that Cap and the Avengers suppress the objectors, Cap rebels and Hill orders SHIELD to attack Cap. Cap plows through the SHIELD agents and runs. 
NEW AVENGERS #21  FB (1p3) 
The same evening as CW 1 (21-31). SHIELD agents fire at Cap as he runs on the helicarrier deck. 
CIVIL WAR #1 (29-31) 
The same evening as A4 21-FB (1p3). This segment occurs before A4 21, shortly before S-H4 9-FB, and probably before ASM 532 (18-19) and TB 102-FB (1-2). Cap escapes from the helicarrier. After this, he becomes a fugitive. The Watcher shows up at the Baxter Building to observe. 

Saturday 
SHE-HULK v4 #8  FB (8p5) 
One day. Debriis identity is outed by the New Warriors hate site and her car is torched. 

Sunday 
SHE-HULK v4 #8  FB (8p6) 
One day. Timeslips identity is outed by the New Warriors hate site and she flees from a mob. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1 (6-13) 
One day, shortly after CW:FL 1 (1-5). This segment occurs after GENM 5 (24) and the year after GENM 5-FB (8-9). Ben Urich and Robbie Robertson discuss the Bugles handling of the Stamford tragedy. Ben is assigned to cover the Iron Man press conference tomorrow morning. That night, Spider-Man (in version 2.0 of his Iron Spider costume) visits Sally Floyd at her apartment. Spidey talks about the pressure for him to reveal his identity and the consequences. He tells her to go to Iron Mans press conference tomorrow. A reference to Friday as an upcoming day indicates that its neither Friday nor likely Thursday. 

Monday 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1 (14-18) 
The morning after CW:FL 1 (6-13). This segment must occur before CW 2 (3p1), in which a newspaper headline announces that Congress has passed the Registration Act. Iron Man conducts his press conference about the proposed Super Hero Registration Act currently making the rounds of Congress, whose acceleration has been the subject of much speculation in recent weeks. Iron Man removes his helmet to reveal himself as Tony Stark. 
NEW AVENGERS #21 (1-9) 
One day. In a hideaway, Steve Rogers tries to draw, but hes so lost in thought about recent events that he fails to detect a SHIELD squad that has snuck up on him with new capekilling tech designed by Stark. He defeats the SHIELD team and encounters Dum Dum, who allows Cap to escape. Cap heads for an old secret bunker of Nick Furys in the Manhattan sewers. 
THUNDERBOLTS #102  FB (1-2) 
One day, three days before TB 102. This flashback probably occurs after CW 1 (29-31). Nighthawk joins the Squadron Sinister, now renamed Supreme Power, and the Grandmaster to find the Wellspring of Power that spawned the Squadrons abilities. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #1/3 
One night, probably after CW:FL 1 (6-13). Spidey (in the Iron Spidey costume) swings around New York, thinking about Japanese internment during World War II as he ponders the decision he must make about registering and revealing his identity. 

Tuesday 
NEW AVENGERS #21 (10-21) 
Perhaps the day after A4 21 (1-9). This segment must occur before S-H4 8 (11-16), BP4 17 (1-14), and MSM2 5 (20-21). Cap awakens in Furys secret bunker when Falcon shows up looking for him. Cap verifies Sams identity and asks him if he registered (which doesnt necessarily mean that mandatory registration is law yet). Cap swears to fight back and Sam agrees to help him put a resistance team together. They write off Spider-Man (in version 2.0 of the Iron Spider costume) as a Stark ally, then, in Caps first public appearance since going AWOL, they defeat the Shocker who was in a standoff with police at a federal courthouse. The TV news reports the incident and notes an emergency Congressional session to debate legality of role of super heroes in government. Cap and Sam try to enlist Hank Pym, who tells them hes on Starks side. Pym turns giant and tries to prevent the duo from leaving to give a SHIELD team time to arrive. Cap injures Pyms nose and he and Sam escape Maria Hill and the SHIELD team. Sam asks Cap, Whos next? Avengers Tower has the Watchtower spires. 
SHE-HULK v4 #8 (1-10) 
One day, after CW 1 (18-31). This segment probably occurs after IHM:MI 1/2 (6-11). John Jameson test pilots an Extreme Vertical Assault (EVA) craft for the military, who plan to use it against super-humans who oppose the Superhuman Registration Act, which is expected to pass. Jennifer sees Doc Samson and Dr. Strange at Stranges Sanctum Sanctorum. Strange lifts Wandas old spell from Jennifer, which cures her of her difficulty in changing into She-Hulk. At GLK&H headquarters, Justice and Rage (both back in their old Avengers costumes) asks for Jennifers help in shutting down a hate site on the web that is revealing the secret identities of the remaining New Warriors. She agrees, and that night John Jameson talks to her about her different stances as She-Hulk (pro-registration) and Jennifer Walters (anti-registration). 

Wednesday 
SHE-HULK v4 #8 (11-16) 
The day after S-H4 8 (1-10), since John refers to his test flight as having occurred yesterday; apparently it took no time for the New Warriors case against the hate site to go to court. This segment must occur before W3 43. On day one of the court case, Stamford survivors tell their stories and an outburst by Rage gets him and Justice removed from the courtroom. Meanwhile, John has a clandestine meeting with Cap in a bookstore basement. Cap asks John if hell ask She-Hulk to fight on his side if the Registration Act is enacted. John refuses and talks about his feelings for Jen. Steve encourages John to do something about it. 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #17 (1-14) 
One day. This story must occur after A4 21 (10-21), given that Cap is a fugitive and is in touch with Sam, although Sam isnt apprehended here for being an accomplice of Caps. TChalla and Ororo hold a press conference in Manhattan. Logan and TShan go along with Cages plans to give TChalla a bachelor party, but TChalla rejects the idea. Storm goes shopping with Kitty Pryde and Sue Richards and discovers that someones been passing herself off as TChallas bride. Back at the Wakandan Embassy, TChalla and Ororo have a romp and the Falcon (depicted with a red, not a yellow, beak symbol on his mask) relays a message from the indisposed Cap concerning the Bradleys. Sam is determined to get Cap to the wedding despite what the state department says. Meanwhile in Africa, Man-Ape goes ape over the wedding. Avengers Tower does not have the Watchtower spires. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #538  FB 
One night. This flashback must occur after CW 1 (13-17). Word gets out about Thors hammer in Oklahoma and guys line up to get a shot at lifting it. 

Thursday 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #17 (15) 
The morning after BP4 17 (1-14). Storm tells TChalla that shes going out with the girls on Friday night and suggests that he go to the bachelor party his friends are planning for that night. 
SHE-HULK v4 #8 (17-22) 
The day after S-H4 8 (11-16). On day two of the court case, the defense calls Iron Man to the stand and Jen brings up Starks past sins concerning his Iron Man secrets. Afterward, Iron Man gives She-Hulk data on the identity and location of the hate sites creator. She-Hulk, Justice, Rage, Slapstick, Ultragirl, and Firestar confront Hindsight Lad, who explains his actions. The heroes are approached by an angry mob, which is dispersed when an EVA craft lands. Inside is John Jameson, who proposes marriage to Jen. Green grass and leafy trees. 
THUNDERBOLTS #102 
One day, three days after TB 102-FB (1-2). This story probably occurs before Congress passes the Registration Act, as noted in CW 1 (32-33). As Joystick secretly observes, Speed Demon fights ninja monks in Tokyo who have been tapping power from the Wellspring. Speed Demon leaves after the monks spit out their power, then Joystick emerges and beats info about the Wellspring out of one of the ninjas. She teleports to the Fixers lab in New York, where Zemo has a teleconference with Gyrich and Dallas. Zemo notes the recent aggressive stances taken by your government towards the superhuman community and Abner predicts that if they really go through with the registration act, itll split the super hero community in half. As Joystick reports to Zemo, Supreme Power convene and discuss the Wellspring of Power, then teleport away to find access points to the Wellspring as Joystick appears at their Manhattan apartment. Grandmaster sees her as Fixer teleports Joystick to Istanbul. There, she beats on more monks whose released powers she records on a device created by Fixer. Speed Demon shows up and fights Joystick, who breaks his legs and collects his power. Back in New York, Zemo congratulates Joystick, who is double-dealing with the Grandmaster. 

Friday 
CIVIL WAR #1 (32-33) 
One day, probably after TB 102. A reference to Congress passing of the Registration Act may be an indication that this segment occurs three days before CW:FL 2/2. Rallying around Miriam Sharpe, protesters demand superhuman registration at the White House, where the Cabinet notes Congress swift response and Caps going underground and becoming a figurehead for opponents to registration. Present are Iron Man, Reed Richards, and Yellowjacket, who plan to deal with Cap. Green trees in DC. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (1-2) 
One night. SHIELD picks up a chained-up Vulture, Grim Reaper, and Trapster  the latest in a string of fifteen super-villains apprehended by Captain America. inside of seventy-two hours. Maria Hill suspects that Cap now has allies. 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #17 (16-22) 
The Friday night after BP4 17 (15). Cage, Logan, Sam, Namor, TShan, and Ben Grimm take TChalla to Rio in an Avengers quinjet for a bachelor party at a strip club, but when the ladies come on to TChalla, he leaves. While out on the town with Sue and Kitty, Ororo encounters her imitator, Princess Zanda. Ororo decks her. She and TChalla meet back up at the Wakandan Embassy, ready to get married. 
[BTS] 
One day, four days before W3 43. Nitro leaves the East Coast in a pick-up bound for California. 
SHE-HULK v4 #9  FB 
One day, six days before S-H4 9 (1-9). This flashback occurs shortly after CW 1 (29-31). Pug barges in on Mr. Zix floating in his office conversing with someone distant about She-Hulks recent proximity to Uatu. Zix secretly prepares to shoot Pug, but Pug claims no interest in the mumbo-jumbo; he just wants to review GLK&Hs video records. 

Saturday 
CIVIL WAR #2 (3p1) 
One day. Newspapers report: Registration Act Passed by Congress, President Promises Swift Action, Captain America Goes into Hiding, and Tony Stark Now Backing Super Hero Reform,  the last an apparent reference to the press conference of CW:FL (14-18). This may be a collection of recent papers that dont necessarily share the same date. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (3p2) 
Perhaps the same day as CW 2 (3p1). It is seven days before CW 2 (8p4). The press interview a government official about Caps stance. She states that theres seven days before the act becomes law (this may be a reference to the proposed registration deadline date, not the date the president is expected to sign the Act into law). 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (1) 
One night. Peter asks M.J.s and Mays help in deciding what to do regarding revealing his identity. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (13-17) 
The same night as ASM 532 (1). It is four days, before ASM 532 (18-19). M.J. and May express their feelings and urge Peter to reveal his identity. 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN v2 #29  FB 
One day, sometime between ASM 532-FB (6-12) and ASM 532 (18-19). It may be the same night as ASM 532 (13-17). In the presence of May and M.J. (presumably in Avengers Tower), Tony Stark reassures Peter Parker that all his enemies wont come after him after he reveals his identity. 

Sunday 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #4/3  FB 
One day, sometime before CW:FL 3/3-FB. Namor sends an Atlantean spy to Manhattan, presumably after the Stamford incident. This spy will take the guise of aquarium store owner Joe. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (3p3-4) 
One day. Yellowjacket, Mr. Fantastic, Iron Man, Doc Samson, Warbird, Tigra, and She-Hulk (who is not wearing her gamma charger) defeat a Doombot in New York City and discuss registration. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (5-6) 
One night. At the Baxter Building, Sue checks in on Reed before going to visit Johnny in the hospital. Reed, excited about Starks plans for super-humans, does not divulge the contents of a CD labeled 42. 

Monday 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/2 
One day, long enough after CW:FL 1/2 (7-11) for Robbie to recover and grow back some hair. This story must occur after CW 2 (8p4), because according to CW:FL 3/2, Robbie was unconscious when the registration deadline passed. It must occur before HFH2 1-FB and may be three days after CW 1 (32-33). A government lawyer visits Robbie Baldwin at an undisclosed location where Robbie has been for more than three days. The lawyer tells him that the Superhuman Registration Act  which passed in both Congress [meaning the House] and the Senate three days ago  was signed into law today by the president. (The law likely includes a deadline for registration that may be shortly after this  maybe even at midnight of this very day.) The lawyer gives Robbie one chance to avoid punishment for Stamford by registering and agreeing to work for SHIELD in subduing unregistered super-humans. Robbie refuses because he insists he did nothing wrong. He is beaten and taken to a maximum security penitentiary, where he is handed over to the mercy of other prisoners who know his identity. 
WOLVERINE v3 #42 (20-22) 
One day. Logan notes that hes been an Avenger for a couplea months now, but it must be more than a couplea months after A4 6. Over the objections of Scott and Emma, Logan leaves the Xavier Institute (managing to evade the Sentinels there) and heads to Stamford on a quest for Nitro. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
NEW AVENGERS #22 (1-9) 
One day. Iron Man and Ms. Marvel visit Cage and Jessica Jones at their apartment. Noting that at midnight the Superhuman Registration Act becomes law, Tony tries to get the couple to register, but Cage and Jessica voice their objections. After Tony and Carol leave, Jessica plans to go to Canada with the baby and asks Cage to join them, but Cage decides to stay and fight. Jessica notes that Matt Murdock is in prison. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (7-8p3) 
The same day as A4 22 (1-9). Spidey (in his Iron Spider costume) swings past the Daily Bugle as Jonah and Robbie talk about the fact that the Superhuman Registration Act becomes law at midnight tonight. Robbie mentions a huge press conference Tony Stark is holding tomorrow morning. Stark and Happy anticipate the enactment of the law in twenty minutes. 
NEW AVENGERS #22 (10p1-10p2) 
The same night as CW 2 (7-8). The clock goes from 11:40 PM to 11:55 PM. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (8) 
The same rainy night as A4 22 (10p1-10p2). Carrying a bottle of booze, the Slingers Prodigy declares from a rooftop at 11:59 PM, in one minute Ill be a bad guy cause some politician says theres a deadline. Among the crowd below are Ben Urich and Sally Floyd. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (1p5, 1p7, 2p2, 2p4, 2p6, 3p2, 3p4, 3p6) 
The same rainy night as CW:FL 2 (8). As Prodigy continues to rant, Iron Man heads toward the scene. 

Tuesday 
CIVIL WAR #2 (8p4) 
Early the morning after CW 2 (7-8). It is seven days after CW 2 (3p2) and 24 hours before CW 2 (9-18). This segment must occur before FF 538 (1-17), XF3 8, CW:FL 2/2, W3 44, MSM2 6-FB, and MSM2 6 (1-3). At midnight, the Superhuman Registration Act becomes law (meaning that its the first day to which the law applies, and heroes have until a specified deadline after this to register). 
NEW AVENGERS #22 (10p3-19) 
The same early morning as CW 2 (8p4). This segment must occur before CW 2 (9-18). At midnight, Gabe Jones and a unit of capekiller SHIELD agents come to the apartment of the unregistered Cage to arrest him. Cage fights them and holds his own until Cap, Falcon, and the new Daredevil arrive and join the battle against SHIELD. Full moon. 
NEW AVENGERS #22  FB 
The same early morning as A4 22 (10-19). Cap, Cage, Falcon, and the new Daredevil fight SHIELD. 
NEW AVENGERS #22 (20) 
The same early morning as A4 22-FB. Cap and company commandeer a tank and Cage radios to Maria Hill that the revolution is coming. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (9p1) 
The rainy early morning after CW:FL 2/4-FB (3p6) and the same early morning as A4 (20). Probably shortly after midnight, Iron Man approaches Prodigy, who defies him. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (9p2) ~ CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (4p2) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (9p1). Iron Man tells Prodigy that he is an unregistered combatant and has ten seconds to leave. Note that Shellhead does not arrest Prodigy right off the bat but gives him the option to leave. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (9p3-11) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (9p2). Iron Man tries to convince Prodigy to register, but Prodigy calls him a traitor and attacks. The two heroes battle in the sky as Urich and Sally watch. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (4p4) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (9-11). Iron Man and Prodigy struggle. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (12) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2/4-FB (4p4). Sally voices her defense of Prodigy and Iron Man blasts the Slinger. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (4p6, 5p2) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (12). Prodigy lands unconscious on a rooftop. The authorities arrive and douse Prodigy in foam. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (13p1-13p2) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2/4-FB (5p2). At 12:05 AM, Prodigy continues to be doused and Sally voices her dissent. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4  FB (5p4, 5p6) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2 (13p1-13p2). The authorities carry Prodigy away as Iron Man looks on. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (13p3-14) 
The same rainy early morning as CW:FL 2/4-FB (5p6). This segment must occur before ASM 533 (17-23). The authorities load Prodigy into a helicopter and Iron Man flies away. Sally yells at Iron Man and the retreating airborne troops and at 12:15 AM, Urich finds himself wondering about the price of the registration law. 
NEW AVENGERS #22 (21) 
The same early morning as A4 22 (20). Having just crossed into Canada, Jessica Jones stops to buy soy milk for her baby and sees a TV news report about Cages attempted arrest and escape. 
WOLVERINE v3 #43 
One morning, two weeks after CW 1 (1-7). This story occurs before CW 2 (3p1), three days before CW:FL 2/2, probably before XF3 8, and must occur after S-H4 8 (11-16). Logan notes at 12:05 AM PST (3:05 AM EST) that what he does is illegal as of five minutes ago. It is four days after Nitro left the East Coast for California, where Logan has arrived in pursuit. A newspaper in this issue reports that the Superhuman Registration Act passes  this must be an old paper. In a bar in Stockton, he discovers that Nitro has headed to Big Sur. Iron Man catches up to Logan and warns him not to go on this vendetta. Tony has a strike team ready to get Nitro in Big Sur and Logan joins the team. The team flubs their raid and Nitro blows them up, incinerating Logan in the process. Nitro reports to a mystery boss in Washington while Janus and company are on Logans trail. As Nitro prepares to leave the scene, hes attacked by a healed Logan. Green trees in California. It is not a Wednesday. 
WOLVERINE v3 #44 
The same morning as W3 43. Logan notes that all the good guysre workin for the government now. Everybody else is just breakin the law  this is a clue that this story occurs after CW 2 (8p4). At 8:22 AM PST, Logan beats on Nitro, who reveals that his power his hyped by MGH. As Nitros about to name his supplier, theyre attacked by a trio (Janus and the surburban couple) who want to bring Nitro to justice themselves. After a skirmish, the trio are revealed as Atlanteans, and Namor (in his black costume) appears. Green grass and trees in California. 
WOLVERINE v3 #45 (1-22) 
The same day as W3 44. Namor decks Logan and leaves for the Atlantean province of Pangea with his colleagues and the captive Nitro. Logan awakens and Iron Man joins up with him. Stark provides Logan with an undersea Iron Man armor and Logan arrives in Pangea at 3:05 PM. Logan confronts Namor and demands custody of Nitro, but Namor refuses to free Namoritas killer. Namor takes Logan to the place where Nitro is being interrogated, only to find that the villain has killed his interrogator, Politus, the male of the suburban couple. Logan slices off Nitros right hand and decides to leave him with the Atlanteans. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/4 
Probably the same day as CW:FL 2 (13-14). Ben Urich writes about the Iron Man/Prodigy incident in terms of the tale of Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon and igniting civil war. 
X-FACTOR v3 #8 
One day. This story occurs after ASM 531 (21-22) and must occur after the registration deadline in CW 2 (8p4). Given that Theresa is surprised that Spidey defends the Registration Act, this story must occur before Spidey goes to DC to reveal his identity in ASM 532 (18-19). XF3 7-FB is referred to as having occurred the other day, but it may have been some time since Scotts visit. X-Factor wonders about Scotts seeming to know Layla and the X-Mens warning about Pietro possibly showing up. Siryn reads the Bugle and talks about Jonahs editorials in favor of the Super Hero Registration Act. Jamie believes the X-Men know something about the Decimation. A duplicate of Jamies, a SHIELD agent for some time, drops by to register X-Factor. Jamies friend Malcom Modern states that the DNA samples from the Tryps are identical. Spider-Man (in version 2.0 of his Iron Spider costume) nabs a crook, then he talks to Siryn about the Registration Act. Siryn is surprised to discover that Spidey is pro-registration. Spidey mentions the Stamford incident. Siryn entrances Spidey into spilling the beans about the Decimation and Theresa is convinced the X-Men have been covering it up. Rictor and M register, and Layla encounters some unfortunate mutants to whom Pietro has restored their power. As X-Factor converge back on their headquarters, Pietro arrives. 
X-FACTOR v3 #9 (1-13) 
The same day as XF3 8. This story must occur before ASM 532 (18-19), given the scene with Siryn and Spidey in XF3 8. X-Factor and Pietro argue, and Pietro claims he wants to help deal with the problems hes caused. Not knowing what to do, Madrox leaves and encounters Layla, who admits that she knew about the Decimation. She points him toward an encounter with Aegis, who is running from SHIELD forces for failure to comply with the Superhuman Registration Act. Madrox uses his duplicates to help Aegis escape. 
MS. MARVEL v2 #5 (20-21) 
One day, three weeks after MSM2 5 (1-19), during which time the press got interested in all the hoopla in Washington about the Super Hero Registration Act. It is a couple weeks since Carol and Cap have talked, perhaps at the Stamford incident, and it must be after CW 2 (8p4), since Carol says in MSM2 6-FB that not registering is against the law. This segment must occur after A4 21 (10-21). Iron Man calls Carol to asks if shes seen Cap and tells her to call him if she does. Just then, Cap shows up at Carols newly repaired apartment. 
MS. MARVEL v2 #6  FB 
The same day as MSM2 5 (20-21). This flashback must occur after CW 2 (8p4). Carol tells Cap she has to register, since its the law and in the best interest of the nation. Cap leaves, disappointed, and Carol declines to apprehend him. 
WOLVERINE v3 #45 (23) 
One night, some time after W3 45 (1-22)  possibly the same night. Namor finds Logan in a bar and tells him that Politus did discover the identity of Nitros benefactor  Walter Declun, the CEO of Damage Control. 

Wednesday 
CIVIL WAR #2 (9-17/18p5) 
The early morning of the day (24 hours) after CW 2 (8p4). This segment must occur after A4 22 (20). SHIELD catches the unregistered Patriot trying to break up a mugging and captures the rest of the Young Avengers. Cap and the Falcon hijack the SHIELD transport holding the young heroes and have Wiccan teleport the vehicle to a top-secret SHIELD safe house, where Cap and his resistance movement (including Cage, the new Daredevil, Cable, Cloak, Dagger, and Hercules) have set up a headquarters for the Resistance, thanks to the underground Nick Fury. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (18-19) 
One morning. It is four days, after ASM 532 (13-17). This segment probably occurs after CW 1 (29-31) and must occur after XF3 9 (1-13) and SENSM2 29-FB. At 7:05, Peter prepares to leave Avengers Tower (no Watchtower spires) for Washington and has second thoughts about revealing his identity. He thinks about being a fugitive but May reminds him about power and responsibility. 
CIVIL WAR #3  FB 
One day, likely before ASM 532 (20). Cap, Falcon, and the new Daredevil battle a new Sinister Six, which includes Lizard, Doc Ock, and Shocker. I theorize that Ock escapes and holes up the rest of the day, missing the unmasking of Spidey until the next morning in SENSM 28. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (20) 
It must be the same day as ASM 532 (18-19), since Peter is in the same clothes. But according to SPECSM2 28, this scene occurs at night, not in the morning as the caption on this page notes. This segment likely occurs after CW 3-FB and may occur later the same day. As Tony Stark prepares for another press conference, he is joined by Peter Parker, who vows to stand by him. Green trees in Washington, DC. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (17/18p6) 
The same evening as ASM 532 (20). Dagger calls the Resistances attention to a TV on which Stark appears. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (21p1-21p2) ~ CIVIL WAR #2 (19p1) 
The same evening as CW 2 (9-18). Stark begins the press conference and introduces Miriam Sharpe. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (19p2) 
The same evening as CW 2 (9p1). Scott, Emma, Beast, Colossus, and Logan watch the press conference at the Xavier Institute. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (21p3-21p4) 
The same evening as CW 2 (19p2). Spidey, in his classic costume, prepares to go out and join Stark at the press conference. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (19p3-19p4) 
The same evening as ASM 532 (21p3-21p4). Stark introduces Spidey. Sue Richards watches the press conference from the hospital room where Johnny lies in a coma. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #532 (22) 
The same evening as CW 2 (19p3-19p4). Spidey steps up to the podium and says he has an announcement to make. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (20p1-20p4) 
The same evening as ASM 532 (22). Spidey makes a speech and Aunt May, M.J., the Daily Bugle staff, Wasp, Thing, She-Hulk, and Yellowjacket watch him on TV. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (20p5-21p1) ~ THUNDERBOLTS #103 (1p1) ~ AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (1) ~ CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/3  FB (1p1) 
The same evening as CW 2 (20p1-20p4). It is two weeks after CW 1 (7p2-7p4). Spidey unmasks himself and reveals that he is Peter Parker. 
CIVIL WAR #2 (21p2-22) ~ CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/3  FB (1p1) 
The same evening as CW 2 (20-21). Jonah faints and Spidey asks the press if they have any questions. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/3  FB (1p2-2p3, 2p5-3p3) 
The same evening as CW 2 (21-22). Spidey answers reporters questions. 
THUNDERBOLTS #103 (1p2-6p3) 
The same evening as CW:FL 2/3-FB (2-3). It is years after ASM 90 and months after A/TB 2. The Thunderbolts battle and defeat Quicksand in Denver. They catch a televised broadcast of the reporters questions for Spidey. 
CIVIL WAR #3 (1) 
The same evening as TB 103 (1-6). As reporters continue to bombard Peter, Stark joins him and tells him to soak it up. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (2-11) 
The same evening as CW 3 (1). This segment occurs before S-H4 9 and must occur before FF 538 (1-17) and C&DP 30 (1-9). Jonah (now vertical) and Robbie catch the remainder of Spideys press conference. Jonah vows to make Peter pay for duping him all these years. After the conference, Peter ralphs and tells Stark hed better not regret revealing his identity. As Peter leaves Washington amid protesters, M.J., Aunt May, and Reed Richards call to congratulate him. Sue Richards shows her concern and she and Reed end up sniping. 
THUNDERBOLTS #103 (6p4-11) 
It must be the same evening as ASM 533 (2-11). This segment must occur after IHM:OL 1 (15-20) and before ASM 533 (2-23). The CSA invites the Thunderbolts to Washington, where Iron Man, Yellowjacket, and Mr. Fantastic tell the group that they want the Thunderbolts to hunt down super-villains and recruit them to the cause of registration. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (12-17p1) 
The same night as TB 103 (6-11). Peter is flown back to New York, and when he arrives (at sundown), hes given notice that the Bugle is suing him for $5 million. TV coverage of Spideys revelation from this morning is seen by Flash Thompson, Eddie Brock, Doc Ock, Vulture, and a host of others. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (17p2-19p3) 
The same night as ASM 533 (12-17). At Avengers Tower, Spidey, M.J., and May watch a televised press conference in which Stark announces that the deadline for registration has come and gone. This is probably the press conference referred to in CW:YA&R 1. Starting this time tomorrow, anyone on this list [of 137 heroes whose identities he knows] who has not come forward to register, or who gives aid and comfort to those who refuse  will be hunted down, arrested and imprisoned, without exception. Stark says that Spider-Man is on his strike team, much to Peters surprise. 
[BTS] 
The same night as ASM 533 (17-19). Stark probably goes with Reed, Hank, and the T-Bolts from DC to NY in mere moments, using the T-Bolts spatial portals. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533 (19p4-23) 
The same night as ASM 533 (17-19) and probably the night before CW 3 (2-3) and A4 23 (1-15). This segment must occur before FF 538 (1-17). I have the T-Bolts here during the eight hours between pages 11 and 12 of TB 103. As Peter and M.J. go out for air, a Cap supporter attempts to shoot Peter, but Peter webs him. Iron Man arrives (back in a flash from Washington) and Spidey gives him crap until Stark apologizes. Spidey notes that this day started with Stark and is now ending with Stark. Iron Man then leads Spidey into a meeting of the pro-registration heroes, including the active FF, the Thunderbolts, She-Hulk, Doc Samson, Ms. Marvel, Yellowjacket, and Wasp. 
[BTS] 
One night, after CW 2 (8p4) and three nights before MSM2 6 (4-9). The unregistered Shroud singlehandedly defeats a squad of SHIELD agents. 
[BTS] 
The night before CW 3 (4-5). The X-Men hold a meeting and decide not to help Stark hunt down anti-registration rebels. 

Thursday 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (1-5) 
The early morning after ASM 533 (12-23). The first seven pages of CW:FL 2 must occur after the rest of the story. The Daily Bugles headline covers Spideys revelation with the headline, Youre Fired. Ben Urich is hounded by the press as he leaves the Bugle offices, then he encounters Peter in an elevator. Sally Floyd meets Firestar in a bar, and Firestar tells her she quits because of the Registration Act. It is a weekday, since Letterman is on TV. 
THUNDERBOLTS #103 (12-21) 
Early the morning (eight hours) after TB 103 (6-11). The Thunderbolts battle and defeat a trio of college kids whove stolen old Beetle armors in New Jersey. Back at their headquarters, Zemo toasts his team, and he and Melissa check in on the detention quadrant that holds a growing army of renegade villains they already started to capture three weeks ago. These villains include Batroc, Zaran, Boomerang, the U-Foes, the Wrecking Crew, Folding Circle, Quicksand, Pretty Persuasions, Mimic, Scarecrow, and the de-powered Blob. Green grass and trees in New Jersey. 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN v2 #28 
The weekday morning after ASM 533 (19-23). This story must occur before TB 104 (1-19) and shortly before FNSM 11. At 5:45 A.M., Jordan Harrison wakes and as he gets ready for school, he sees on the TV a replay of the press conference at which Spidey unmasked last night. Hes blown away by the revelation that Spidey is his science teacher, Peter Parker. (Its surprising that Jordan hadnt heard about this news earlier, as the press conference surely would have occurred before his bedtime the previous evening, and news travels fast.) The replay is also seen by Sue Richards, who is visiting Johnny in the hospital, and Doc Ock, to whom this is news (not as surprising, as the villain could easily have missed media coverage until now  after having escaped the battle with Cap and company  and his whereabouts would be known to very few if anyone). Jordan takes the subway, where he sees the Bugle headline, Youre Fired! He meets up with his friend Madeline and both witness a battle right in front of their school (Midtown High) between Spidey (in the Iron Spider costume) and the enraged Doc Ock. Jordan stands up to Ock and distracts him, allowing Spidey to administer the coup-de-gras. Presumably after this, Doc Ock is apprehended and handed over to the T-Bolts. 
NEW AVENGERS #23 (1-15) 
Probably the morning after ASM 533 (19-23), since TV news has full court coverage of Spider-Mans shocking public revelation in Washington. The news also reports on Caps status as a public menace. Jessica Drew awakens in her apartment and is paid a visit by a Nick Fury LMD seeking to know what side of the civil war she wants to be on. Jessica recognizes her visitor as an LMD operated by Maria Hill. When Maria calls her a traitor, Jessica blasts the LMD, but shes apprehended by a SHIELD cape-killer squad. Jessica awakens in an interrogation room aboard the helicarrier in the presence of Hill and Iron Man. Iron Man has told SHIELD about Jessicas triple agent status and tells Jessica that he cant afford to have her as a wild card in the civil war. Just then, Hydra disables the helicarrier and Shellhead with an EMP, frees Jessica, and sends the craft falling toward Providence, RI. SHIELD prevents a crash, but Jessica is gone. Green grass and trees and light clothing in Rhode Island. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2 (6-7) 
The same morning as CW:FL 2 (1-5). This segment must occur before S-H4 9. Robbie tells Jonah that Urich encountered Spidey last night and relays a message from Peter that he quits, backdated to before Jonah fired him. Jonah argues with Robbie and calls Peter a betrayer. The new front page headline of the Daily Bugle (perhaps a mockup for the upcoming evening edition) reads, Spiderman  Parker. 
SHE-HULK v4 #9 (1-9) 
It must be the morning after ASM 533 (2-11), since cable news has been running Spideys unmasking for the past ten hours. This story occurs six days after S-H4 9-FB and must occur after CW:FL 2 (6-7). Pug finds video proof that Jens feelings for John Jameson are Starfoxs doing. He burns the footage onto a disk and emerges from the GLK&H archives to find his co-workers looking at the repeated news footage of Spideys unmasking. At the Bugle, Jonah throws a fit when he discovers that Spidey may be awarded amnesty for registering, making him immune to Jonahs lawsuit. As Jonah rants about super heroes and lawyers, he catches live TV coverage of his son Johns Las Vegas wedding to She-Hulk. Others, including Wasp and Doc Samson, catch the news as well. Jonah calls John on his cell phone and gives him crap. She-Hulk is told that the Hulk hasnt been seen since his attack on Vegas. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #2/3 
One day, shortly after CW:FL 2/3-FB (2-3). In prison, agents show Norman Osborn a tape of Spideys unmasking and Osborn gets angry, saying he broke the rules. An agent asks Osborn if hes prepared to play by a new set of rules. 
CIVIL WAR #3 (2-3) 
Probably the day after CW 3-FB and ASM 533 (19-23). This segment occurs before BP4 18. Reed visits TChalla in Wakanda and relays a request from the president that the Panther help hunt down renegade heroes, but TChalla declines. Reed notes that he hasnt checked in with Sue for a day or two (my analysis has him with Sue the previous night). Yellowjacket and the Wasp visit the Sanctum Sanctorum to ask Strange to join them, but Wong reports that Strange has gone into seclusion to fast for forty nights and wouldnt consider supporting Starks plans. Newspapers report the smashing of the Sinister Six by Caps Secret Avengers and Starks promise to tackle super-rebels. 
CIVIL WAR #3 (4-5) 
One day. This segment occurs before XF3 9 (14-21). It occurs before NX 28 and thus must occur before NX 25 and CW:X 1 (1-16). At the Xavier Institute, where a Sentinel stands on duty, Stark asks Emma Frost to help him hunt down anti-registration rebels. Emma declares that the X-Men remain neutral, but as Stark leaves, Bishop approaches him. Stark tells Happy to move forward with the containment as planned, before I go public with the fifty-state initiative. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #27 (21) 
One day, weeks after C&DP 27 (12-20). G.W. Bridge and the Thin Man plan to end Cables and Deadpools incursion in Rumekistan and hire Domino to take them down. 
NEW AVENGERS #23 (16-20) 
Probably the same day as A4 23 (1-15). Jessica Drew awakends on Hydra Island, where Connelly tries to talk her into replacing Viper as Madame Hydra, but Jessica refuses. She subdues Connelly, fights a squad of Hydra goons, and blows up the island as she escapes in a boat. 
CIVIL WAR: YOUNG AVENGERS & RUNAWAYS #1 
One day. This story must occur after RUN2 18. It is probably shortly after ASM 533 (17-19), given the reference to Iron Mans apparent betrayal at a press conference and to his vow to track down super-humans unwilling to register. CW 1 (13-17) is referred to as having occurred last-- (probably month). Since Johnny Storm is reported as still in critical condition, this story likely occurs before CW 3 (6-15). Given his activities in Rumekistan, Flag-Smashers presence in California in this issue is not explained, but it must occur before C&DP 28. The Runaways go shopping at the Santa Monica Farmers Market, where they end up fighting Flag-Smasher. A SHIELD helicopter responds and its crew tries to subdue the Runaways. Victor is injured in the melee, but the kids escape (and Flag-Smasher must as well). At the Resistance safe-house, the Young Avengers catch a TV news broadcast covering the Runaways escape, and Patriot intends to find and recruit them. Despite Caps disapproval, that night the Young Avengers jet to California. They find the Runaways with the help of Wiccans locating spell. Mistaking the Young Avengers for the pro-Registration Avengers, Molly attacks the group and is downed. Vision and Victor experience techno-spasms. Molly is twelve. Green grass and trees in California. Full moon. 
CIVIL WAR: YOUNG AVENGERS & RUNAWAYS #2 
The same night as CW:YA&R 1. 
SHE-HULK v4 #9 (10-22) 
The same night as S-H4 9 (1-9). Jen notes that the Superhuman Registration Act passed this week, but this may be a reference to the registration deadline, not the Congressional approval. She also notes that she is out there, registering the heroes thatll let me...fighting the ones that wont. As Jen and John prepare to go to Jonahs for dinner, Jen tells John that shes decided to stay She-Hulk 24/7. As they argue about it, Pug leaves a message on her answering machine to meet her in a nightclub. Ditto shows up as She-Hulk to meet Pug to allow Pug to get his feelings out, but Pug decks him when he reveals himself. That evening, Jen and John have dinner with Jonah and Marla. John gets angry and unleashes an old Spider-Slayer on She-Hulk, who trashes it. As Jonah and Jen argue, she tells him that Spidey is not shielded from fraud. When She-Hulk tells Jonah he could sue Spidey for his new Iron Spider costume, Jonah changes his tune about Jen. 
HEROES FOR HIRE v2 #1  FB 
One night, one week before HFH2 1. This flashback must occur after CW:FL 2/2, since Reed notes that a law has been passed. Spideys remarks likely place this flashback before CW 3 (6-15); there are no clues to place this flashback relative to Spideys unmasking. Misty Knight and Colleen Wing meet Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, and Spider-Man (in the Iron Spidey costume) on a rooftop. The trio asks the ladies to be government bounty hunters to bring in people who refuse to register. Misty refuses to go after Cap and talks about war, but Spidey says there isnt going to be a war. Things will cool down and people will understand this is the best thing for everyone. Colleen raises concerns and compares registration to China, but Reed dismisses the comparison as extreme. Misty agrees to Starks offer, but only if she gets Stark-level resources, can pick her own team, and that she can count on Stark to back her up when things go bad. Stark agrees. Avengers Tower has the Watchtower spires. Full moon. 

Friday 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #11 
One school day. This story must occur shortly after SENSM 28. As someone monitors him, a new Mysterio rants to himself about how hell strike at Spidey by attacking the school at which he works. Peter Parker wades through a group of reporters in front of his school. As he leaps over them and enters the school, he wonders if revealing his identity was a mistake. In the school, Flash provokes Peter, believing his revelation to be a ruse. Flash hurls a ball at him and Peter kicks it back in his face, giving Flash two black eyes. Flash is cared for by the new school nurse, Arrow, with whom he flirts. Peter tells the school principal that he resigns teaching after today. After school, Peter meets with the Ecology Club, whose students complain about Peters resignation. The new Mysterio attacks the school after rigging the place up with hauntings and death traps. The students scurry in fear and Peter changes into his Iron Spidey costume. The new Mysterio is confronted by someone claiming to be the original Mysterio. Avengers Tower features the Watchtower spires. 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #12 
The same day as FNSM 11. 
X-FACTOR v3 #9 (14-21) 
One day. This segment occurs after CW 3 (4-5), probably occurs before X:DG 6 (25-28), and must occur before CW:X 1 (1-16). Rictor calls the X-Men to let them know that Pietro is with X-Factor. When the Astonishing team (Scott, Logan, Kitty, Peter, and Hank) arrive, X-Factor take them to task about not being honest with them about the Decimation. Madrox states that he will call a press conference to announce that X-Factor is opposed to the Registration Act and will help people in avoiding the government. When he asks the X-Men for their support, Scott answers that they cant because theyve already agreed to be neutral; he mentions Emmas discussion with Stark from CW 3 (4-5). Madrox orders the X-Men to leave, and Scott tells him hes responsible for keeping Pietro in Mutant Town. 
MS. MARVEL v2 #6 (1-3) 
One night. Since this segment must occur after the registration deadline in CW 2 (8p4), it must be more than just a few days after the Stamford incident. Ms. Marvel defeats the unregistered Prowler and SHIELD arrives to take him into custody. Full moon. 

Saturday 
MS. MARVEL v2 #6 (4-10) 
The morning after MSM2 6 (1-3). Carols nightmares are interrupted when Wonder Man knocks on her door. He and Carol go to Stark Tower (which has the Watchtower spires) to attend a meeting called by Iron Man. There theyre greeted by Julia Carpenter, now going by the name Arachne. Stark arrives and assigns Julia the task of bringing in the Shroud, who defeated a SHIELD squad three nights ago. He assigns Simon and Carol with finding and registering or arresting Arana. Stark asks Carol if shes seen Cap, but Carol just says she doesnt know where he is. Carol and Simon head to Brooklyn to carry out their assignment. 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN v2 #29 
One weekend day during Little League baseball season. Chameleon coerces Molten Man into joining a group of villains going after the outed Peter Parker by using Electro to threaten the safety of the boy that Raxton mentors. Meanwhile, Scarecrow and Will O the Wisp attack Spidey and quickly disappear. Suspecting that the attack is a prelude, Spidey calls M.J., whos at a MacBeth rehearsal, and tells her to go to Avengers Tower to be safe. M.J. refuses to let any threat interrupt her life as Swarm lurks outside the theater. Black Cat is upset about the continued media coverage of Spideys unmasking and her lover Puma suggests that shes still in love with Spidey. Spidey goes to Madame Web for advice, and she sees a horrible future. As Liz Allan contemplates the repercussions of Spideys revelation, Molten Man pays her a visit. Green grass and trees in New York. 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN v2 #30 
The same night as SENSM2 29. 
MS. MARVEL v2 #6 (11-21) 
The same evening as MSM2 6 (4-10). A SHIELD agent interrogates the Prowler at Rykers and discovers that Julia Carpenter tipped him off just prior to his arrest. Julia shows up at the Shrouds penthouse to warn him that SHIELD is closing in on him. He and Julia are lovers. SHIELD bursts in and Shroud tries to cover for Julia for the sake of her daughter, but Julia attacks SHIELD and escapes with Shroud. After fruitlessly crisscrossing Brooklyn all day, Carol and Simon go to a Chicken Cow restaurant, where they foil an attempted holdup. The incident forces restaurant server Anya Corazon to reveal herself as Arana. Full moon. 
MS. MARVEL v2 #7 
The same night as MSM2 6 (11-21). Wonder Man probably appears here before CW:FL 5/3. 

Sunday 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #28 
One morning, probably two days after C&DP 27 (21), since it is day two in Dominos mission log. Flag-Smasher must appear here after escaping BTS in CW:YA&R 1. Domino watches Wade fight Ultimatum soldiers and report to the resistance movement in Rumekistan, where it is raining. Domino meets with an old friend whos now an Ultimatum soldier and cant decide whether Deadpool or Flag Smasher should be killed. At Providence, Irene sends Ken Ellis inside info on the Superhuman Registration Act. Back in Rumekistan, Wade meets Weasel, who is working for the resistance. They are attacked by Domino, and after a fight in which Domino finds herself on the losing end, Ultimatum forces scare the resistance fighters away. After dawn, Deadpool prepares to kill Flag-Smasher as he makes a public speech, but Domino ends up assassinating him. The leader of the resistance then introduces the people to their new head of state  Cable. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #29 
The same day as C&DP 28. Cable convinces Ultimatum to join him and Domino resists the urge to take down Cable. After a meeting in which plans to rebuild Rumekistan are laid, Wade follows the suspicious resistance leader, only to discover that hes Citizen V. On Providence, Black Box checks his files for info on Citizen V and Irene notes that theyre in the middle of considering legislation to register superhumans. Nathan is upset at Dominos silence. Deadpool fights and defeats Citizen V and delivers him to Domino, who lets him go. Domino reveals her distrust of Nathan and leaves. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #538 (1-17) 
One day. This story must occur after FOUR 30, CW 2 (8p4), and ASM 533 (19-23), and must occur before CW 3 (6-21). The FF visit the comatose Johnny in the hospital. There, Reed and Sue get into an argument about Reeds helping Stark round up heroes. Ben keeps vigil over Johnny, then Sue returns and talks to him about her feelings about registration. Ben sees a live TV news report about a battle on Yancy Street between pro- and anti-registration heroes. Ben rushes there and sees Ms. Marvel fighting Silverclaw. Carol asks for Bens help in apprehending Silverclaw, but Ben walks away. Ben then talks to Yancy Streeters who protest the Registration Act. They tell him that he has to choose sides. Green trees in New York. Waning crescent moon. 

Monday 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #3/2 (1-7) 
Probably the day after CW:FL 2/2. She-Hulk visits her client, Robbie Baldwin, in jail and reviews his case with him. Jen encourages Robbie to plead criminal negligence, but Robbie refuses. Hes led back to his cell, where he is harassed by guards and fellow inmates. 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #18  FB 
One day. Dr. Doom records a video message for TChalla and Ororo, saluting the couple and offering an alliance. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #3 
One night. In a secret location, Sally Floyd interviews a group of super-beings who refuse to register. They include Solo, Typeface, and Battlestar. At the Baxter Building, Ben Urich interviews Reed Richards, who notes that its been a difficult week. Reed and Urich voice different views about registration. On her way back from her interview, Sally encounters a battle between the anti-registration Thunderclap and pro-registration Bantam. Things get out of hand and Bantam is killed by mistake.
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 28 Aug 2006 01:31 pm; edited 5 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Aug 2006 06:19 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Continued... 

Tuesday 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #4 (1-4) 
Probably the day after CW:FL 3. The Daily Bugle headline reads, Act of War. In a coffee shop, Urich and Sally discuss Bantams death. Sally thinks the scene was a set-up, but Ben doubts her until he gets an anonymous note to listen to her. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #4/4 (1p2, 1p4, 1p6, 2p2, 2p4) 
The same day as CW:FL 4 (1-4). A squad of capekiller SHIELD agents are given an assignment and take off from the helicarrier in a helicopter. Meanwhile, in a secret location, Network addresses the ragtag group of anti-registration super-beings who want to find and join Caps Resistance. Sally is there, taking notes. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #4 (5-6p3) 
The same day as CW:FL 4/4 (2p4). The ragtag bunch discusses their situation. The capekiller SHIELD unit approaches, accompanied by Iron Man, Ms. Marvel, and Wonder Man. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #4/4 (2p6) 
The same day as CW:FL 4 (5-6). Ms. Marvel swoops down and the SHIELD agents deploy. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #4 (6p4-7) 
The same day as CW:FL 4/4 (2p6). The SHIELD agents burst into the secret facility, surprising the ragtag bunch. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #4/4 (3p2, 3p4) 
The same day as CW:FL 4 (6-7). More agents stream in, as do Wonder Man and Iron Man. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #4 (8p1-8p4) 
The same day as CW:FL 4/4 (3p4). Solo blames Sally for leading the authorities to them, and Typeface instructs Gladiatrix to get Sally out of there. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #4/4 (3p6, 4p2, 4p4) 
The same day as CW:FL 4 (8p1-8p4). The anti-registration folks fight back and an explosion erupts. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #4 (8p5-9) 
The same day as CW:FL 4/4 (4p4). Gladiatrix is knocked down by the explosion and is trapped under rubble. Sally escapes with some of the anti-registration group, but others, including Battlestar, Typeface, and Solo, surrender. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #4/4 (4p6, 5p2, 5p4, 5p6) 
The same day as CW:FL 4 (8-9). Those surrendering are taken into custody by SHIELD. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #4 (10-13) 
The same day as CW:FL 4/4 (5p6). Sally, suspecting that the authorities tailed her, calls Urich to warn him that reporters may be under surveillance. Then, Urich is attacked in an alley by the Green Goblin. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #5  FB 
The same day as CW:FL 4 (10-13). The Goblin threatens Urich, then he collapses as he seems to fight someone inside of him. Urich gets away. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #3/2 (8-9) 
Perhaps the day after CW:FL 3/2 (1-7). She-Hulk comes to Robbie Baldwin with an offer from the governor to have Robbie register as a costumed hero and agree to three years community service. Robbie refuses, saying it would amount to an admission of guilt. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #5 
The same night as CW:FL 5-FB. At the Daily Bugle, Urich tells Jonah and Robbie about his encounter with the Goblin. Jonah doubts Urich and confirms that Norman Osborn is still in prison. And argument ensues, Urich gets out of line, and Jonah fires him. In Chinatown, Sally is approached by a mysterious figure who tells her to abandon her pursuit of a story about the underground heroes and to focus on the wrongness of the Registration Act. Sally submits her story to Neil at the Alternative, where a government agent shows up with a SHIELD squad demanding to know more about the unregistered combatants she was with and about the mystery man who approached her in Chinatown. When Sally and Neil refuse to cooperate, theyre arrested. Jacket weather in New York. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #3/3  FB 
One evening, sometime after CW:FL 4/3-FB. Karen Mason purchases a tetra at an aquarium store. Store owners Joe and his wife close the store and go home, where they see TV news coverage of beached whales. Joe goes into the bathroom, injects himself with a serum and turns into a blue-skinned Atlantean. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #3/3 
The same night as CW:FL 3/3. Police investigate an explosion at the fish store and interview Karen Mason. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #4/3 
The same night as CW:FL 3/3. It is two days before CW:FL 5/3. As the police and fire departments deal with the aftermath of the aquarium store explosion, Detective Keith theorizes that a sleeper agent is responsible. Joe slips away in firemans garb. 
CIVIL WAR #3 (6-15p2) 
One night. This segment must occur before C&DP 30 (16-22) and after FF 538 (1-17), and likely after CW:YA&R 1 and HFH2 1-FB. An unattended Johnny Storm awakens from his coma. Cap, Hercules, Goliath, and the new Daredevil assume new identities, and Foster disapproves of his new name. As they sit in a diner, they get a distress call from a petrochemical plant on fire. The quartet join Cable, Cage, Falcon, Cloak, Dagger, and the Young Avengers at the plant, only to discover that its a Stark facility  its a trap, the containment that Stark noted. Iron Man, She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel, Wonder Man, Doc Samson, Mr. Fantastic, Thing, Invisible Woman, Spidey, Yellowjacket, Wasp, Black Widow, Tigra, and the Thunderbolts attack and take out Cloak and Wiccan. Iron Man gives Cap one last chance for amnesty, but Cap tricks Stark and scrambles his armor with some SHIELD tech from Fury. A battle ensues as Maria Hill and SHIELD surround the perimeter with cape-killer units. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #538 (19-22) 
The same night as CW 3 (6-15). This segment must occur before FF 538 (19-22), not meanwhile. In Oklahoma, Don Blake arrives, grabs Thors hammer, and flies off with it. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #534  FB 
The same night as CW 3 (6-15). The battle at the petrochemical plant continues. Spidey decks Falcon. 
CIVIL WAR #3 (15p3-21) 
The same night as ASM 534-FB and FF 538 (19-22). The battle continues, then a bolt of lighting strikes and Thor arrives. 
CIVIL WAR #4 
The same night as CW 3 (15-21). 
FANTASTIC FOUR #538 (18) 
It must be the same night as CW 4. The Mad Thinker and the Puppet Master plan to hit a security van carrying the captured heroes to prison tomorrow at ten. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (1-3p3) 
The same night as FF 538 (18-22). Knowing that Iron Man will be moving the detainees out sometime tomorrow morning, Cap outlines a plan to free the detainees for Cage, Cloak, Dagger, and the new Daredevil in their underground lair. Theyre interrupted by Cee and two of his fellow Yancy Streeters, who give Cap some intel on the route the security convoy will take. 

Wednesday 
FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (3p4-8p3) 
The morning after FF 539 (1-3). The Puppet Master and Thinker prepare for the carnage theyll unleash during the transport of apprehended Resistance members from a temporary holding facility to a more permanent facility. Cap and his associates prepare to leave their lair to intercept the convoy. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #534 (3-6) 
The same morning as FF 539 (3-8) and the morning after CW 3 (15-21). Iron Man and his associates (Spidey, Yellowjacket, Wasp, She-Hulk, and Ms. Marvel) escort the security convoy. As they do, Spidey thinks about the protestors they pass and discovers that Iron Man knows about his spider-sense. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (8p4-9) 
The same morning as ASM 534 (3-6). As the convoy moves on, Ben eats a sandwich in a deli, whose owner tells him about a protest march on Yancy Street at ten oclock. Seeing that its just after ten, Ben rushes out of the deli. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #534 (7-9p5) ~ FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (10-12) 
The same morning as FF 539 (8-9). Spidey detects remaining Resistance fighters heading for them, so they switch routes and end up at Yancy Street, where the heroes are pelted with junk. Tigra is now among Iron Mans associates. Spideys spider-sense tingles. Green trees in New York. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (13p1-13p4) 
The same morning as ASM 534 (7-9). Realizing that Spidey is sensing them, Puppet Master and Thinker decide to act immediately. They possess the pilot of a flying escort and make him fire a missile at the ground convoy. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #534 (9p6-10p3) ~ FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (13p5-14p3) 
The same morning as FF 539 (13p1-13p4). Spidey warns of the approaching missiles and Iron Man and Ms. Marvel destroy most of them, but two get through. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #534 (10p4) 
The same morning as ASM 534 (9-10). The two missiles approach Spidey. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (14p4) 
The same morning as ASM 534 (10p4). Spidey extends his arms and yells, Ive got em! Ive got em! Ive. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #534 (10p5-10p6) 
The same morning as FF 539 (14p4). Spidey shoots webs at the missiles and slings them away, yelling (again), Ive got em! Ive got em! Ive. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (14p5-15) 
The same morning as ASM 534 (10p5-10p6). The Thing arrives and sees Spidey being slingshot by the departing missiles. He turns and sees the crashing of the security van carrying the detainees. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #534 (10p7-11) 
The same morning as FF 539 (14-15). The missiles carry Spidey into the sky and he makes them crash into each other. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (16-17) 
The same morning as ASM 534 (10-11). Iron Man orders the Thing to prevent the prisoners from escaping. The Resistance arrives and asks Ben to help them with the escape. Puppet Master and Thinker remotely possess a Yancy Streeter named Mouse into activating a bomb, which falls to the ground when Cee tackles Mouse. The Thing plans to use the emptied van as a shield for the bomb. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #534 (12-20) 
The same morning as FF 539 (16-17). The Thing lifts up the van. Somewhere nearby, Cap offers Spidey one last chance to join the Resistance, but Spidey refuses. They fight, and Spidey webs up Caps shield. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (18) 
The same morning as ASM 534 (12-20). The Thing throws the van on top of the bomb, which explodes. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #534 (21-22) 
The same morning as FF 539 (18). The explosion forces Cap to ditch his fight with Spidey. Spidey decides not to keep the shield but to web it up in a safe place for Cap to retrieve later. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (19-23) 
The same morning as ASM 534 (21-22). When the Puppet Master speaks through Mouse, the Thing recognizes the villain. Then he sees Cee lying dead in the street. Cap returns and confirms that all the detainees escaped, and Iron Man prepares his team to attack Cap. Holding Cees corpse, Ben Grimm reams into both sides of the battle. Cap and Iron Man each try to talk him into joining his side, but the Thing tells them to go to hell. He says he cant take a side and storms off, saying hes leaving the country. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #534 (23) 
The same night as FF 539 (19-23). Cap retrieves his shield as Spidey looks on and Peter starts to question his choice. 

Thursday 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #5/3 
One day, two days after CW:FL 4/3. Wonder Man probably appears here after MSM2 7. After filming a public information spot for the Registration Act, Wonder Man is approached by SHIELD to investigate the case of Joe, the mysterious pet store owner. To ensure Simons cooperation, SHIELD is willing to overlook Simons outstanding embezzlement counts. Simon is given a day to review the dossier before SHIELD returns tomorrow night to go over the details of the assignment. 
HEROES FOR HIRE v2 #1 
One day, one week after HFH2 1-FB. Mistys and Colleens Heroes for Hire (now including Shang-Chi, Humbug, and the new Tarantula) battle and defeat the Mandarins Avatars in New York. They return to their home base in Chinatown, to which fellow member Black Cat returns from a reconnaissance mission. She reports that Vienna is running a fake ID ring for super felons looking to go underground or leave the country. Misty, Colleen, Tarantula, Black Cat, and Humbug assault Viennas place and battle a group of villains seeking new IDs, including Grindhouse, Shockwave, Goldbug, Equinox, and Ghost Maker. A second wave of Heroes for Hire  Shang-Chi, Paladin, and Orka  join the fray and the bad guys are defeated. Its revealed that the mission was a sting operation and that Vienna was in on it. Some of the heroes are ticked that they werent trusted to be privy to the sting. 
NEW X-MEN v2 #25 (1-21p2) 
One day. This story must occur after CW 3 (4-5). In Dallas, Forge has a setback in his lab. The New X-Men train in the Danger Room by trying to take down Colossus. They fail, and Josh, still angry about the X-Mens inability to save the mutants who were killed on the bus, attacks Peter after the session. Emma kicks Josh off the team. Jay leaves the infirmary to speak to Sooraya. He admits to doing something wrong to try and save everyone and says he intends to fix things. He slips Dust a note with the address of his destination. That night on the Institutes grounds, Laurie tries to talk to the upset Josh and is shot and killed by one of Strykers Purifiers. Stryker notes that his vision can come to pass once Dust is eliminated. Jay shows up at Strykers place. Waning crescent moon. 
NEW X-MEN v2 #29  FB (10p1) 
The same day as NX 25 (1-21). Jay asks Stryker if he can save his friends, just as Strykers men shut down Nimrod, which detects Jays presence. 
NEW X-MEN v2 #25 (21p3-22) 
The same day as NX 29-FB (10p1). Stryker shows Jay his destiny, Nimrod. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
NEW X-MEN v2 #26 (3p4-12) 
The same night as NX 25. It is supposed to be several years after NX 26-FB (1) and two years after NX 26-FB (2-3), but it may be just the year after. From Dallas, Forge watches a TV news report about the presence of O*N*E and a communications blackout at the Institute, and the arrival of new mutants there; the implication is that it is not long after HOM:DA 1 (32-38). Stryker explains to Jay that hes been using Nimrods projections of future events to identify mutants who need to be killed to ensure a future in which humans triumph over mutants. Scott tells David he needs to stay at the Institute for his own safety. The New X-Men react to Lauries death. Green trees at Westchester. 
NEW X-MEN v2 #29  FB (10p3) 
The same day as NX 26 (3-12). As Nimrod reboots, Stryker shows Jay his vision. 
NEW X-MEN v2 #26 (13-23) 
The same day as NX 29-FB (10p3). Someone dressed as Dust goes to Strykers place, only to be gunned down. Stryker learns that Dusts death doesnt alter future events and he critically shoots Jay. Discovering that Jay has left the grounds of the Institute, the X-Men split into two teams and depart with some of the Sentinels. Stryker and his troops arrive at the Institute and incapacitate the Sentinels still stationed there. Green trees at Westchester. 
NEW X-MEN v2 #27 
The same night as NX 26 (13-23). Because Scott asks Forge if hes going to attend Ororos wedding, this segment must occur after BP4 16 (10-23). Nimrod goes online and leaves Strykers place to proceed with his primary objective. It is revealed that X-23 (now healed from her gunshot wounds) took Soorayas place and Stryker cant believe that Dust is still alive. In the battle with Strykers troops at the Institute, Dust and X-23 make short work of the attackers, but Quill is killed, Sam and Onyxx are badly injured, Bishop and Beast suffer minor injuries, and Emma is stabbed in her left shoulder. Josh uses his power to kill Stryker. In doing so, Josh becomes catatonic and his skin changes from gold to black. In the aftermath, Emma, her left arm in a sling, kicks herself for another student death. From his Dallas headquarters, Forge checks in with Scott and says hell be at the Institute with something hell likein another week; that something is probably the battle vehicle seen in CW:X 1 (17-22). After signing off, Forge is found by Nimrod, for whom finding the maker is his primary objective. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
NEW X-MEN v2 #28 
The same night as NX 27; its unlikely that twenty-two hours pass between NX 27 and 28 as Emma notes. Official super heroes Iron Man and Ms. Marvel are called to help police deal with the aftermath of the carnage at Strykers place. There they find Jays corpse and his partially written message of Nimr. Carol decides to go to the Xavier Institute to report Jays death. At the Institute, O*N*E removes Strykers corpse and Beast comments on the Sentinels ineffectiveness against him as well as Vulcan and Apocalypse. Gail Collins arrives to claim her deceased daughter, and Surge notes that forty-five of us are now dead. Carol arrives and the New X-Men learn of Jays fate as they eavesdrop on Carols meeting with Scott. Emma enters the room and reveals that Carol is also here to discuss the Registration Act. Emma remarks that it would appear the no I gave Tony Stark didnt convince Ms. Marvel. She rebukes Carol by showing her recent scenes of mutant tragedy. Scott escorts Carol out. The New X-Men discuss what they overhead about the energy trail found at Strykers and David concludes that it was Nimrod. In Dallas, Nimrod tells Forge to help him or he will teleport to Africa and kill Ororo. 

Friday 
NEW X-MEN v2 #29 (3p6-7) 
Probably the morning after NX 28. Forge discovers that Nimrod arrived 1.82 years ago from an alternate future in which Forges counterpart modified Nimrod. David tries to tell Scott that Nimrod is back, but Scott dismisses him and leaves for Ororos wedding with the Astonishing team. Green trees at Westchester. 
NEW X-MEN v2 #29 (8-11) 
The same evening as NX 29 (3-7). Forge tries to buy time as hes forced to repair the damaged Nimrod. Forge taps an emergency button to summon the X-Men. 

Saturday 
NEW X-MEN v2 #29 (12-22) 
The early morning after NX 29 (8-11). Surge awakens to an image of Forge with Nimrod. With the X-Men half a world away (at Storms wedding), the New X-Men decide to save Forge. As the Sentinels conduct their 3:00 AM scan of the Institute, the New X-Men jet out of an abandoned tunnel. Forge finishes a new body for Nimrod, who detects the arrival of the New X-Men in 24 minutes and predicts their deaths shortly thereafter. Leafy trees at Westchester. 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #18 
Probably the same day as NX 29 (12-22). This story occurs shortly after BP4 18-FB. This story occurs after CW 3 (2-3) and must occur before X:DG 6 (25-28) and S-H4 10. Betsy Braddocks presence here places this story before XCAL4 8; apparently she doesnt have a chance to talk to Brian about Jamie at the wedding. During a cease-fire in the Civil War, heroes from both sides of the registration battle gather in Wakanda to celebrate the wedding of TChalla and Ororo. Cage tells Spidey that it took guts to reveal his identity. The Thing complains when Reed and Sue argue again. Xavier arrives to wish Ororo well, and she is surprised that he can walk. TChalla tries to broker a truce between Cap and Iron Man, but the two argue and Cap leaves. Stark tells TChalla he respects Wakandas neutrality and is abiding the presence of known fugitives, but he tells TChalla not to meddle. The Panther responds by dismissing Stark. Among the other attendees are the Astonishing X-Men (Kitty, Emma, Scott, Peter, and Logan), the Inhumans, Namor, Dr. Strange, Goliath, Iron Fist, Blade, Brother Voodoo, Shang-Chi, Triathlon, Falcon (w/goatee), Isaiah Bradley, Excalibur (Cain, Brian, Kurt), Psylocke, She-Hulk, Jessica Jones, Monica Rambeau (in her Nextwave costume) and Deadpool. The Watcher arrives and everyone wonders why hes there. The ceremony gets underway and the Panther God blesses the union. At the reception, the mystics in attendance detect the psychic parasite Cannibal, who then abandons his plans to usurp the Wakandan throne and escapes. Spidey gets into a tussle with Man-Ape. A few hours later, TChalla and Ororo open presents, including a hologram recording from Dr. Doom suggesting an alliance. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #4/2 
One day. Robbie Baldwin fights fellow inmate Toomey in their prison boxing ring. Robbie floors Toomey, but another inmate slices Robbies leg. Robbies mother visits and pleads with him to express remorse over Stamford, but Robbie refuses. His mother leaves and says shell never return for another visit. 

Sunday 
NEW EXCALIBUR #8 
One day, shortly after UX@2 1. This story must occur after Betsys appearance in BP4 18. Talia spends a day on the town in London, then she and Cain watch Alison perform at a nightclub. Brian has dinner with Betsy, who tells him about what happened with Jamie. Wisdom contacts Brian and says that the brain-dead Shadow Xavier is asking for Betsy. The team head to Crossmoor Prison, where Psylocke confronts the malevolent presence inside the evil Xaviers mind, the Shadow King. The villain takes possession of Cain, Talia, and Wisdom and they fight Sage and Brian. The spell breaks when Betsy stabs Shadow Xaviers mind with her psychic blade and she vanishes. Green trees in London. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #30 (1-9) 
One day, probably just after dawn CST. This segment occurs after THING2 8 and ASM 533 (2-11) and eleven hours before C&DP 30 (10-15). Deadpool attacks the Great Lakes Champions at their Milwaukee headquarters to force them to register, not realizing that theyve already done so. After the GLC defeat Wade, CSA Agent Hafner arrives to offer Wade a job as government bounty hunter to track down non-registrants and bring them to justice. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #30 (10-15) 
Probably the same night (eleven hours later) as C&DP 30 (1-9). After having been jetted to Washington to be deputized, Wade is back at his place in New York preparing to go hunting when Nathan shows up. Cable discovers the governments plan to use superhuman operatives to track down superhuman renegades, and Wade assumes Nathan is above the whole matter. Armed with the new intel, Nathan meets with Cap and offers him and his colleagues asylum in Providence. Nathan warns Cap about the danger of being discovered and visually projects the new secret identities created for Cap, Herc, Goliath, and the new Daredevil. Nathan claims hes trying to prevent a long-term totalitarian future, but Cap stands his ground and tells Nathan, we could use you. Cable replies, Im trying to keep my involvement low-profile, but...Ill do what I can when I can and teleports away. The eavesdropping Deadpool, upon discovering the new DDs new secret identity, decides to go to Long Island to claim his first target. 

Monday 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #30 (16-22) 
The morning after C&DP 30 (10-15). This segment must occur after CW 3 (6-21). Wade cases out the new DD on Long Island and follows him to a warehouse in Manhattan, only to discover that its a trap. The new Daredevil ambushes him. As they fight, the new DD says, I thought Cable was on our side, and Deadpool recognizes the new DDs fighting style. He is about to identify him when Cap, Herc, Goliath, and the Young Avengers appear. Wade mocks Fosters new name and Foster responds, See. I told you. Green grass and trees on Long Island. 
X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS #6 (25-28) 
One day. Given both Xaviers and Ororos presence here, this segment must occur after BP4 18. It cannot be just one week after X:DG 6 (1-24), but probably one month after. Xavier may or may not have been at the Institute this whole time. This segment occurs shortly before UX 475-FB (3-5) and must occur after XF3 7. Pietros presence makes it likely that this story occurs after XF3 9 (1-13). XF3 6 is referred to as having occurred the other day, but it must be the other week. As Sentinels stand at the Institute, Xavier and the Beast observe Darwins bodily evolution in the lab. The X-Men attend the funeral of Sway, Petra, and Banshee in the cemetery on the Institutes grounds; their graves are added to others already there  probably the ones seen in NX 24. Among those in attendance are Bishop, Peter, Kitty, Scott, Lorna, Kurt, Logan, Ororo and TChalla, Rachel, Hank, Bobby, Emma, Alex, Theresa, and Xavier. Scott kicks Xavier out of the Institute for his betrayal. Vulcan flies through space with his targets set on the ShiAr. Green trees at Westchester. 

Tuesday 
UNCANNY X-MEN #475  FB (3-5) 
One day, shortly after (perhaps the day after) X:DG 6 (25-28). It is two days before UX 475. A Sentinel stands vigil at the Xavier Institute. Xavier tells Beast that Scott wants him out of the Institute and Hank offers his support. Xavier asks Kurt for assistance with a mission. Green trees at Westchester. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #475  FB (9-11) 
Probably the same day as UX 475-FB (3-5). James Proudstar practices with a vibranium knife that Ororo left him. Xavier invites him to go on a mission. Green trees at Westchester. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #475  FB (14-15) 
Probably the same day as UX 475-FB (9-11). This flashback probably occurs before X 188-FB (4-21). Xavier asks Rachel to go on a mission. 
SHE-HULK v4 #10 
One day. This story must occur after BP4 18. She-Hulk stops the unlicensed Hellcat from chasing after Ruby Thursday and gets her to register as a super-hero. Jen tells Patsy that she wont have to pull a Parker with a public unmasking. Two-Gun Kid takes Ruby down. At Rykers, Pug and Ditto interrogate a Hydra agent who bore false witness against Starfox at his trial. AT GLK&H, Grey Gargoyle talks to Mallory about suing Thor Girl for assault and compelling her to reveal her identity. Awesome Andy convinces the smitten Mallory not to take the case. Alistair Smythe poses as Willoe Lumpkin and delivers belated wedding presents to Jen and John at the Excelsior. Jen compares her quickie Vegas wedding with the ceremonies of TChalla and Ororo and Cage and Jessica. Smythe activates a remote control spider device that bites John. Pug arrives and tells Jen that her love for John is a result of Eros power, then John and Pug fight and John turns into Man-Wolf. The scene is monitored by Mr. Zix. Stu Cicero tells Zix that hes figured out that Zix is the Recorder robot from the Living Tribunals magistrati. Zix incinerates Cicero for knowing too much. 

Wednesday 
NEW EXCALIBUR #9 
One day, at least a few weeks after XCAL4 9-FB (4p2). This story occurs after X 186. Pete Wisdom, who hasnt smoked in three months, comes to claim Chamber from the hospital, only to discover that a Dr. Hartley has absconded with the patient. Later, Chamber awakens to find himself transformed into an Apocalypse-looking being, bearing his symbol and standing before a new incarnation of Clan Akkaba, followers of Apocalypse and a group to which Jonos great-grandfather belonged. Chamber refuses the Clans invitation to join them and leaves. He encounters Excalibur, who tries to recruit him to no avail. Chamber walks away, and inside the Clans quarters, Hartley asks Ozymandias when they shall meet Apocalypse, whose recent reappearance is noted. Ozymandias tells him that Chamber will play a role in that meeting. Hours later, Wisdom arrives with a warrant to search the Clans quarters, which has been cleaned out. Wisdoms people detect Jonos off-the-chart energy signature. Green grass and trees in England. 
THUNDERBOLTS #104 (1-19) 
One day, weeks after the Beetle armors were stolen. This story must occur after SPECSM2 28. Three teams of Thunderbolts round up more renegade villains simultaneously  Mach IV and the Beetles apprehend Eel and Porcupine; Songbird, Atlas, and Smuggler nab Mongoose; and Blizzard, Fixer, Joystick, and Quicksand defeat the U-Foes. Dallas and Gyrich monitor the teams work and present their plans for the T-Bolts to Washington decision makers. Zemo drops in on Reed Richards, Yellowjacket, and Radioactive Man to check on their progress with the construction of a new prison facility for arrested super-heroes. Swordsman trains new super-villain recruits Ox, Cobra, and Unicorn in new Mexico and has a skirmish with the new Whiplash and Blacklash. The T-Bolts arrive, and before a vast gathering of villains, Doc Ock questions Zemo. 
THUNDERBOLTS #104 (20-21) 
One night. Zemo teleports to the underground headquarters of the Resistance, where he meets Cap, Falcon (without goatee), and Hercules. Zemo offers them a deal to gain freedom and redemption at such a time that the government imprisons them. 
THUNDERBOLTS #105 
The same night as TB 104 (20-21). This story occurs a few months after A/TB 5 and before CW:FL 5/2. The heroes attack and Zemo dispatches all but Cap to New Jersey. Zemo tells Cap about his reformation and atones for the past by returning to Cap cherished personal belongings plucked from time. Zemo gives Cap a spatial interface key that will allow him to escape from future government imprisonment and he asks Cap to trust him when the Grandmasters threat materializes. At a Manhattan bar, Dallas meets Songbird and they discuss her heading a pro-registration team in Colorado as part of Starks Fifty States Initiative. Fixer, Mach-V, and Joystick battle Iron Maiden in Washington State. After a meeting with the renegade heroes, Nighthawk reports back to the Grandmaster and the Squadron Sinister, including Speed Demon, whose legs are in casts healing from injuries sustained in TB 102. As Hank Pym and Reed Richards work on the Negative Zone prison for apprehended non-registrants, Radioactive Man compares their efforts with the tactics of the Chinese government; this would be at least the second time Reed has heard the comparison to China, following Colleens remark in HFH2 1-FB. Zemo returns to his quarters and talks with Melissa about their fates. 
X-MEN v2 #188  FB (1-3) 
One night, twenty-four hours before X 188. A battered, fearful Sabretooth, bereft of his healing power, shows up in a Nogales, Mexico bar, where a man arranges his passage into the U.S. 

Thursday 
UNCANNY X-MEN #475 (1-2) 
One day, two days after UX 475-FB (3-5). This story must occur after X 188-FB (4-21). In Egypt, Lorna is pursued by enemies of Apocalypse in high-tech fighting machines. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #475 (6-20p4) 
The same day as UX 475 (1-2). Xaviers team of X-Men (Havok, Marvel Girl, Warpath, and Nightcrawler) come to her rescue. Lorna is recruited for Xaviers mission  to stop Vulcan from wreaking vengeance on the ShiAr Empire. Lorna is surprised that Xavier can walk. Vulcan flies through space. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #477 (1-6p2) 
The same day as UX 475 (6-20). It is at least a week after X:DG 6 (1-24), and probably far longer than that. In space, Vulcan approaches a ShiAr ship. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #475 (20p5-21) 
The same day as UX 477 (1-6). Vulcan blasts the ShiAr ship. Aboard the X-jet, Xavier outlines his teams mission. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #477 (6p3) 
The same day as UX 475 (20-21). The ShiAr ship explodes. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #475 (22) 
The same day as UX 477 (6p3). ShiAr corpses float around the wrecked ship. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #477 (7-18) 
The same day as UX 475 (22). This segment occurs before UX 476 and days before UX 477 (19-22). Vulcan asks a surviving ShiAr how far it is to the ShiAr homeworld and he tells him that the only way to make it there is through stargates activated by ShiAr craft. Vulcan kills his informant and detects three more ShiAr vessels. He destroys two of them and forces the third to surrender. He commandeers the ship and tells the crew to set a course for Shandilar and to destroy star-gates behind them as they travel. 
X-MEN v2 #188  FB (4-17p4) 
The night of the day after X 188-FB (1-3). This flashback must occur before UX 476. As a Sentinel looks on and Beast monitors from the Institute, the X-Men (Scott, Emma, Rogue, Bobby, Sam) assault a hospital in which mutant DNA is spliced into baseline humans. There they retrieve the comatose Lady Mastermind and Karima Shapandar. Upon their return to the Institute, Xavier asks to have a word with Scott. Scott replies, Professor. Youre still here, and Xavier responds, For the moment, yes. Xavier criticizes Scott for what he perceives as Rogues recklessness in the assault, but Scott dismisses him. Meanwhile, Sangre and Serafina arrive at the bar where Sabretooth had been and, detecting his prior presence there, destroy the entire block, intentionally leaving a little girl as a lone survivor and false witness. They catch up to Sabretooth on the Mexico/U.S. border and lose him in a skirmish. 

Friday 
UNCANNY X-MEN #476  FB 
Probably the morning after UX 475. Xavier asks Scott to let Darwin go with him on his mission, but Scott refuses. Scott and Xavier argue and Alex arrives to support Xavier. Scott relents. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #476 
The same morning as UX 476-FB. This story must occur after UX 477 (7-18) and X 188-FB (4-17) and before X 188-FB (17-21). Xaviers X-Men go to a secret ShiAr base in upstate New York to find a spacecraft. There, they battle and defeat mutated former prisoners of the ShiAr who were left at the base. The X-Men blast off in a spaceship and jump through a star-gate beyond the moon, only to discover that the remaining stargates that lead to the ShiAr empire have been destroyed. Green grass and trees in New York. 
X-MEN v2 #188  FB (17p5-21) 
Perhaps the night of the day after X 188-FB (4-17). Since Mystique impersonates Xavier in X 189, this flashback must occur after UX 476. At the Institute, Scott asks Rogue to lead a rapid response unit. Rogue agrees and selects Sam, Bobby, and Mystique for the team. Just then, Sabretooth arrives at the Institute, runs into a Sentinel, and asks for sanctuary. Green grass and trees at Westchester. Full moon. 
X-MEN v2 #188 
The same night as X 188-FB (17-21). It is twenty-four hours after X 188-FB (1-3). A TV news reporter reports on the decimation in Nogales, and the little girl who survived claims the X-Men are responsible. 
X-MEN v2 #189 
The same night as X 188. This story occurs a week after X 189-FB, seven months after W3 28, and more than thirteen weeks (three months) after XCAL3 13 (19-20). Sangre and his teammates (Fuego, Serafina, Perro, Aguja) assault a SHIELD holding facility in Alaska and free Northstar from his reconditioning. Serafina interfaces with the computers there and plants false evidence that the X-Men were responsible for the assault. At the Institute, Sabretooth insists on speaking to Xavier (so obviously the word is out that he returned) and Emma detects Creeds fear. Val Cooper talks to someone she believes to be Xavier about the Nogales situation, and after she leaves, Xavier is revealed as Mystique. Sam tells Raven she had to assume Xaviers identity to give the prof and the others a head start. He also tells her that Rogue picked her to be on her team. In space, a ShiAr scout ship detects Vulcan flying away from the Terran stargate and something big net of energy moving toward earth. The energy net obliterates the scout ship. Northstar appears in western Canada and fetches his suicidal sister while Sangre, Fuego, and Aguja return to their base, the Camara Roja Vault. Karima awakens in the Institutes med lab, bereft of her memory of the last thirteen weeks (three months). Regan Wyngarde remains comatose, and Logan and Rogue talk. Perro and Serefina attack the Institute with Northstar and Aurora. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
X-MEN v2 #190 
The same night as X 189. This story must occur before CW:X 1 (1-16). 

Saturday 
NEW EXCALIBUR #10 
One day. Dane Whitman opens Garret Castle as a Black Knight museum. He receives a phone call from Captain Britain, who hints (while fighting bank robbers) at asking him to join Excalibur. Then the spirit of Sir Percy of Scandia, the original Black Knight, enters Whitmans body. He takes the Ebony Blade and smashes into a display case holding his own preserved body. From the case he takes a scroll, and just then, Excalibur arrives. They fight, and Talia determines that Dane is possessed. Cain knocks Dane out and Sage retrieves the scroll. It is an ancient drawing of the members of Excalibur. Green trees in England. 
NEW EXCALIBUR #11 
The same day as XCAL4 10. 
CIVIL WAR: X-MEN #1 (1-16) 
One rainy night. This segment must occur after CW 3 (4-5), XF3 9 (14-21), and X 190. This segment occurs two days before CW:X 3 (3-12). Val Cooper is interviewed on TV about the civil rights of the mutants kept at the Xavier Institute. The 198 stage a riot as a diversion for an assault on the Institute by Domino and Shatterstar. Bishop joins O*N*E troops and Sentinels in battling the intruders and the rioting mutants. A stealth jet arrives to spirit the 198 away, then the X-Men (Scott, Warren, Hank, Bobby, Kitty, and Lockheed) join the battle. To avoid fatalities, Cyclops ends up letting the jet go with more than half of the internees aboard. Bishop, considering it important for mutants to police themselves, argues with Scott about the situation. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 

Sunday 
[BTS] 
The morning prior to CW:X 1 (17-22). Stark has breakfast with the Secretary of Defense. 
CIVIL WAR: X-MEN #1 (17-22) 
The day after CW:X 1 (1-16). This segment occurs at least a week after NX 27. Iron Man meets with Bishop, Val Cooper, and Lazer about the attack on the Institute. Thinking it important for mutants not to be seen as menaces, Stark calls for a task force of mutants and Sentinels led by Bishop to bring in the renegade 198. Bishop already has recruited Micromax and Sabra for the team. Lazer futilely objects, believing that mutants will always side with their own kind. Around dusk, the original X-Men (Scott, Hank, Bobby, and Warren) don new black leathers and, with the Sentinels still getting patched up after the kicking they got last night, they leave the Institute in a battle vehicle made for them by Forge (which may be the item to which Forge refers in NX 27). They have chosen a side in the battle and are sworn to protect the renegade mutants from O*N*E. After they leave Emma behind, she is confronted by a new Sentinel. Green grass and trees at Westchester. 
CIVIL WAR: X-MEN #2 (1-2) 
The same night as CW:X 1 (17-22). As the Sentinel holds Emma, Val demands to know where Scott and the others are, but Emma refuses to cooperate. Green trees at Westchester. 
UNCANNY X-MEN #477 (19-22) 
One day, days after UX 477 (7-18). The ship under Vulcans command enters the inner realms of the ShiAr Empire and is confronted by the Imperial Guard. 

Monday 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #5/2 
One day. This story must occur after TB 105. She-Hulk accompanies Robbie Baldwin as hes transferred from his prison to a portal to the Negative Zone. Jen gives Robbie one more chance to register, but he refuses. Robbie, along with Typeface, Coldblood, the Living Mummy, and other prisoners, walk through the portal and see Negative Zone Prison Alpha before them. Coldblood freaks out and collapses. 
CIVIL WAR: X-MEN #2 (3-12) 
It must be the day after CW:X 2 (1-2), since its two days after CW:X 1 (17-22). In Illinois, Scott and company manage to remotely contact Captain America, whose face is swollen and whose arms are being bandaged. With Cap in the Resistance headquarters are Cloak and Dagger, Hercules, and the new Daredevil. Scott asks Cap where the 198 are, then one of the new Sentinels, commandeered by Slayton, finds and attacks Scotts group. The X-Men fight back, then escape using Forges red herring jammer. They head for the Nevada facility where the 198 are making themselves at home, and where Caliban finds a radioactive containment chamber. At the Pentagon, Lazer forces Johnny D to show how the creature in his torso can make mind-controlling replica figures from DNA samples. Green grass and trees in Illinois. 

Tuesday 
NEW AVENGERS #23 (21) 
One day, long enough after A4 23 (16-20) for Jessica to have traveled all over the country looking for Fury. This segment probably occurs after scenes in other titles that show the Resistance without Spider-Woman. Jessica Drew shows up at the headquarters of the Resistance looking for Fury, but discovers Cap and his allies instead. Shown here are Falcon, Cage, the new Daredevil, Cloak, Dagger, and Stature. Jessica asks to join the Resistance. 

Wednesday 
CIVIL WAR: X-MEN #2 (13-22) 
One day, probably two days after CW:X 2 (3-12), as long as it takes the X-Men to drive from Illinois to Nevada. Val tells Bishop that the president is considering pardons for the escaped mutants. Lazer discovers the location of the 198. Just as Cyclops and company arrive at the Nevada facility and make contact with Domino and Shatterstar, Bishop, Sabra, Micromax, and a squad of new Sentinels show up. Bishop tells Scott to back off until the president decides what to do, but Lazer, wanting the 198 to be brought in, decides to provoke a battle. He uses Johnny D to possess Scott into blasting Bishop with his eye beams. 
CIVIL WAR; X-MEN #3 
The same day as CW:X 2 (13-22).
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 28 Aug 2006 01:34 pm; edited 5 times in total

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Posted: 14 Aug 2006 10:35 am    
By ashram316

You have Banshee's Funeral listed as occuring before X 187 (5-23), but I thought it had beed established by the presence of Sentinels that this was incorrect (the funeral must occur after X 187). Also, does XF3 9 have to occur the same day as XF3 8? Is your placement of XF3 9 before CW 3 under the assumption that Cyclop's statement about neutrality merely refers to the decision, not Emma's official agreement with Iron Man? 


Here's another thought. Could Civil War: X-men occur before Supernovas? 
We know that there was a week between the Banshee's funeral and UX 475. Is it possible that CW:X takes place during that time? This would free up Iceman for his part in Supernovas.

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Posted: 14 Aug 2006 02:09 pm    
By Somebody

ashram316 wrote: 
>>>
Also, does XF3 9 have to occur the same day as XF3 8? Is your placement of XF3 9 before CW 3 under the assumption that Cyclop's statement about neutrality merely refers to the decision, not Emma's official agreement with Iron Man? 
<<<

XF8 ends with Madrox and Siryn heading to XFHQ, and Quicksilver entering, and XF9 starts with an almighty argument in XFHQ as a result of what Siryn pumped Spider-Man for and Quicksilver's presence. Madrox then leaves XFHQ with a headache, gets angry at Layla, Layla sends him to help the New Warrior forcefield-guy, Madrox then reabsorbs a hundred or so dupes and, dizzy, falls down a flight of stairs (one dupe created as a result wants to do it again).In the meantime, Quicksilver is trying to rent a shop in Mutant Town, and the AXM team, less Frost, shout in to challenge him. Layla then turns up, followed by the rest of X-Factor - less Madrox. Madrox comes in a few panels later and immediately dives in front of Siryn, taking Cyclops' blast square and making another crapload of dupes.

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Posted: 14 Aug 2006 04:46 pm    
By ashram316

Looking back, I probably asnwered my own question in the post, but I was referring to the logic of the placement, not what happens in the issue. Madrox states that X-factor will side against registration. He then asks Cyclops if the X-men will help. Cyclops responds that "we can't, we already agreed to --" before being cut off. He is referring to the fact that the X-men will remain neutral in the Civil War. Upon first glance, I assumed that this was a reference to Emma's conversation with Iron Man in CW 3 where she says just that. However, upon seeing Paul's placement of the issue, I see that Cyke's reference could be to an internal decision to remain neutral and that the conversation between Emma and Iron Man has not necessarily taken place. I guess I was asking Paul if this was the train of thought he was following. 

BTW, Somebody, I love the DP pic.

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Posted: 14 Aug 2006 07:14 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

ashram316 said: 
>>>
You have Banshee's Funeral listed as occuring before X 187 (5-23),  
<<<

Thanks for pointing out the fact that I forgot to remove that statement about X 187 (5-23) from the listing for X:DG 6 (25-28). We DID decide that X 187 (5-23) occurs before the funeral, given the Sentinel situation. You'll see that there IS no entry for X 187 (5-23) in this chronology. That's because I've placed it before Civil War. I'll edit the entry to remove the offending Lorna theory. :) 


ashram316 said: 
>>>
I see that Cyke's reference could be to an internal decision to remain neutral and that the conversation between Emma and Iron Man has not necessarily taken place. I guess I was asking Paul if this was the train of thought he was following.  
<<<

Yes. I don't think Emma's telling Tony that the X-Men were neutral was the moment they decided to be neutral. That decision surely would have been made before then.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 14 Aug 2006 09:56 pm    
By Hotcharokey

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Yes. I don't think Emma's telling Tony that the X-Men were neutral was the moment they decided to be neutral. That decision surely would have been made before then. 
<<<

In XFA 9, Cyclops says, "Emma already discussed it with Stark. Officially we're neutral." 

Are you saying that Emma and Stark had more than one conversation?

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Posted: 15 Aug 2006 06:09 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hmm, well that's not likely, is it? So we have a problem. There are no breaks between XF3 8 and 9. XF3 9 must occur after CW 3 (4-5), which in turn occurs after the portions of CW 2 that tie into Spidey's unmasking. So one would conclude that XF3 8 must occur after Spidey's unmasking. Yet, in XF3 8, Siryn is surprised to learn that Spidey is pro-registration, a fact that was revealed for everyone when he unmasked. So did Emma have two conversations with Tony or was Teresa hiding under a rock?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 15 Aug 2006 07:39 am 
By jephyork
Director

Rock. Her dad just died, give her a break. Besides, I think it's the less damaging option of the two. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 15 Aug 2006 09:56 am    
By Somebody

You haven't read XF7 yet, have you?

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Posted: 15 Aug 2006 10:12 am    
By ashram316

In XF3 8, Spidey takes down a criminal who can't wait until the heroes are unmasked. I find it highly unlikely this would occur after CW 2, since there are multiple references to Spidey not being unmasked. There are now 3 ways to look at this: 

1. This story overlaps the end of CW 2 and 3. Spidey heads to unmask right after his conversation with Siryn. The beginning of XF3 9 coincides with CW 3 (4-5). The Emma talks to Tony at the same time that X-factor is arguing. It appears that Madrox is gone for several hours (it is morning/early in the day at the beginning, evening when the X-men arrive), so this is conceivable. 

2. There were multiple conversations between Iron Man and Emma. It's less likely, but still possible. Emma seems frustrated in New X-men when Ms. Marvel tries to recruit the X-men. Who knows, maybe Tony called first, got rejected, then tried to meet in person and change her mind. The X-men would be a rather valuable asset to either side if they joined the fight. 

3. The argument lasted a lot longer than was let on.

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Posted: 15 Aug 2006 11:35 am    
By Somebody

ashram316 wrote: 
>>>
1. This story overlaps the end of CW 2 and 3. Spidey heads to unmask right after his conversation with Siryn. The beginning of XF3 9 coincides with CW 3 (4-5). The Emma talks to Tony at the same time that X-factor is arguing. It appears that Madrox is gone for several hours (it is morning/early in the day at the beginning, evening when the X-men arrive), so this is conceivable. 
<<<

IF this fits with the ASM issue that leads up to the unmasking (which I don't have to hand, but I'm less than sure it works. Could someone who does say if there's time for Spidey to have a web-swing in NYC to try and settle his nerves?), it would be best, since the issue is very certainly written as "he's not unmasked yet"

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Posted: 15 Aug 2006 05:09 pm    
By Hotcharokey

I suggest placing a break between pages 13 and 14 of XF3 9. Pages 1-13 would occur the same day as XF3 8, but pages 14-21 would occur after CW 3, page 5. This would mean that Quicksilver spent several days with X-Factor before the X-Men arrived.

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Posted: 15 Aug 2006 08:16 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Works for me. I can see a gap between those pages, easily. Rictor could have taken several days to rat out Pietro. Let me edit the chronology and let folks see how this change looks. Thanks, hotcharokey. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 17 Aug 2006 10:36 am    
By ashram316

I think that CW:X needs go before ASM 534. In CW:X 2 we see Cap looking totally beat up, as if he has just come from getting stomped in the big fight at the end of CW 3. This would place ASM a bit later, giving him time to recover before attempting the rescue in ASM~FF.

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Posted: 17 Aug 2006 01:27 pm    
By Somebody

ashram316 wrote: 
>>>
...as if he has just come from getting stomped in the big fight at the end of CW 3. 
<<<

That's WAAAY too big a logic leap to make without seeing CW4!

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Posted: 17 Aug 2006 01:38 pm    
By ashram316

Has he been in another big fight recently? Have you seen the panels? His face is all swolen, his cotume is torn all overm and his arms are bandaged, He is clearly more injured here than he is after ASM. Spider-Man only gave Cap a scratch. At this point, I don't find that to be a large leap at all. Cap and a few others escape the fight in CW 3. Cyke contacts Cap as they are planning the rescue that is seen in ASM. We have already basically assumed that the latest ASM and FF take place after the battle in CW 3, so why can't CW:X happen between that fight and ASM~FF?

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Posted: 17 Aug 2006 02:08 pm    
By jephyork
Director

And herein lies the problem of trying to put together a chronology for a complex story that's still in the process of being told. 

Maybe we should wait a little bit before presuming that we have all the necessary information to divine issue placements. I've never advocated chronologizing a story while it was was still in motion. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 17 Aug 2006 02:47 pm    
By ashram316

I see your point. However, I don't see the harm in making speculatory placements mid-story. My personal placement of CW:X is merely how I see it at this moment. Of course, it could all change next week, but until then, why not make an educated guess. Is my placement competely impossible based on what we have seen so far? I don't believe so. Is it possible that something will come out that will contradict my placement? Maybe. Why open a Civil War forum at all if we weren't going to speculate about placement before it is over?

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Posted: 17 Aug 2006 03:22 pm    
By Somebody

If you look back, about half the posts to date in the thread are about Blood of Apocalypse and Deadly Genesis with minimal CW content...

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Posted: 17 Aug 2006 03:38 pm  
By ashram316

True, but if we wait for CW to be over, what will we do until January?

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Posted: 17 Aug 2006 08:55 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

When I read CW:X 2, I automatically assumed that Cap was beat up from an as-yet unpublished battle. His injuries don't match anything that's come out yet, and my presumption of a late placement for CW:X within CW seemed confirmed by Cap's state. Yup, wait and see...and a long wait it may be. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 19 Aug 2006 05:17 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I just edited my previously posted CW chronology to reflect the addition of CIVIL WAR: X-MEN #2, SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN v2 #29, and THUNDERBOLTS #105.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 21 Aug 2006 12:24 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Hey hey, I *finally* got my copy of the "Blood of Apocalypse" TPB, and I'm wondering why in five pages of debate about opening up a gap in X-Men #187, nobody brought up the fact that, as Lorna's walking out the Mansion door, there are people following her, telling her that she just got out of her sick-bed. That -- just like the "no Sentinels" point that everyone missed -- would have probably killed the debate right there too. 

 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 21 Aug 2006 12:33 pm    
By Somebody

Thought it was implicit in everything I said on the subject....

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Posted: 21 Aug 2006 02:44 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
telling her that she just got out of her sick-bed.  

Hey, I kept mentioning she was still in her ratty sick robe! :) 

Not quite what you're looking for, I know.

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Posted: 21 Aug 2006 08:25 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I'm wondering why in five pages of debate about opening up a gap in X-Men #187, nobody brought up the fact that, as Lorna's walking out the Mansion door, there are people following her, telling her that she just got out of her sick-bed. 
<<<

Kirk: Bones, what's the story with that horse? 
McCoy: She's dead, Jim. 
Kirk: Then, what's that man from Boston doing with that club? 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 22 Aug 2006 07:54 am    
By jephyork
Director

Heh. 

I'm just saying -- it's a frustrating process for me to try to chronologize without owning the books. I have to rely on the analyses and clues presented here by others, and when people skip obvious clues and it leads to five pages of placement discussion, wherein I repeatedly propose a solution that's completely unworkable if only someone would notice the obvious clue ... well, I get annoyed. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Aug 2006 10:59 am    
By Ocean Doot

" it's a frustrating process for me to try to chronologize without owning the books." 

Couldn't you buy the books? That might cut down on frustration.

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Posted: 22 Aug 2006 11:27 am    
By jephyork
Director

You think? 

Actually, Doot, I buy the trades. As stated above, I just got the "Blood of Apocalypse" trade, and immediately noticed the simple clue I mentioned before. 

The other way to cut down on frustration is to not discuss the chronology until I own the books -- but generally by the time I get them, the discussion is long over and placement has been generally agreed-upon, and I haven't been able to have my say. 

This time, when I saw people railroading to a conclusion I didn't like ("let's ignore Lorna!"), I felt compelled to step in -- and so I asked my fellow chronologists for all the clues. 

I didn't get them. That's what bugs me. How did people who were actually quoting me parts of the issue miss things like the "there's no Sentinels" line for over a week? Now I'm starting to worry that there are dozens of other missed clues out there, and because I don't collect the single issues, I won't notice them until it's too late -- the discussions will continue without me, with incomplete information, and the MCP will wind up with incorrect placements. 

(Not that I'm So Much Better than the rest of you, but I believe that every single pair of eyes looking over the material helps.) 

It's just frustrating to have three choices -- stay silent and worry that things are being missed, jump in and risk getting incomplete info from my fellow posters, or start spending more money (which I can't afford) to buy the original issues. 

Which is why I wish people would at least wait until a story-arc is OVER before they start chronologizing. In addition to everyone being able to have the big picture -- ALL the chronology clues from the whole story -- by the time I get the trade, the discussion is still relatively fresh in everyone's mind, and I can weigh in.  

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Thought it was implicit in everything I said on the subject.... 
<<<

No offense meant, but next time please make it EXplicit. 

Sorry, I'm just venting a little steam. Carry on... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 22 Aug 2006 11:44 am    
By Ocean Doot

"The other way to cut down on frustration is to not discuss the chronology until I own the books -- but generally by the time I get them, the discussion is long over and placement has been generally agreed-upon, and I haven't been able to have my say. \0" 

Ah, makes sense. I understand your frustration now. (I'm not just saying that. I just recently constructed a read-order for my Chris Claremont X-Men comics from the '80s, and I want to discuss THAT with someone. If you're frustrated by discussions of comics from three or four months ago passing you by, imagine the frustration when the comics are 20 *years* old!)

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Posted: 22 Aug 2006 12:32 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Well, there is an inherent problem with conducting analyses of storylines that are still in progress: it wastes time and effort. 


watching: live from

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Posted: 22 Aug 2006 09:03 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
The other way to cut down on frustration is to not discuss the chronology until I own the books -- but generally by the time I get them, the discussion is long over and placement has been generally agreed-upon, and I haven't been able to have my say. 
<<<

Oh, like that isn't by design!  

Seriously, though, Jeph -- you should know that any and all placements are up for debate indefinitely. Sometimes we overlook things, sometimes Russ just makes a typo when he's working up pages, and sometimes a new writer comes along and forces new material into place that requires some revisiting. 

That's one of the reasons why I think the MCP is infinitely more useful than the old indexes: since the MCP is online, corrections can be made for everyone at any time -- we don't have to print retractions or addendums that everyone may or may not get. Bad/incorrect/outdated information is essentially removed entirely from existence and good/correct/up-to-date information is put in its place. 

I don't have a problem with you (or anyone else) weighing in on a topic without actually having read the entire book. Sometimes it takes the ignorance of someone out of the loop to point out flaws in other's logic or that certain assumptions are based on implied and not explicit information. How you respond (or don't) to any given thread is obviously entirely up to you, but I don't think you should be required to limit your input to issues you've actually read. If that were the case, how many people could legitimately talk about "Civil War" since the story hits so many different books?

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Posted: 27 Aug 2006 02:33 pm    
By Somebody

Pointing out that, although it's not billed as a Civil War crossover, Eternals appears to be taking place in the Civil War timeframe - it's certainly after Iron Man's reunmasking in Frontline (which is explicitly referenced), and the Iron Man/Sersi conversation in #3 (with Iron Man telling [the mindwiped] Sersi that it's her "duty to get registered" and that "You can't stay neutral forever. You need to decide which side you're on") appears to place it smack-bang in the middle.

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Posted: 28 Aug 2006 05:23 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Up till now, ETERNALS has simply referred to the Registration Act being in force. However, this issue does see Iron Man telling Sersi outright to "choose a side", which implies that there are still sides at this stage. 

But it doesn't necessarily mean that the story is during CIVIL WAR (although it easily could be). It depends on what the new status quo is when CIVIL WAR is over. I have a suspicion that the Registration Act is going nowhere fast, and that there will still be a bunch of rebel (or expatriate) heroes out there for some time to come. 

Of course, regardless of that, publication order suggests a placement during CIVIL WAR in any event.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 28 Aug 2006 01:38 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I updated the Civil War chronology I posted on page 11 of this thread, as follows: 

Added: 
A4 23 (1-15) 
A4 23 (16-20) 
A4 23 (21) 
HFH2 1-FB 
HFH2 1 
W3 45 (1-22) 
W3 45 (23) 

Moved: 
CW:FL 2/2 (I had this too late in the chronology) 

Edited: 
A4 21 (10-21) 
ASM 533 (19-23) 
CW 1 (32-33) 
CW 3 (6-15) 
TB 105 
W3 44 


Be aware of possible spoilers if you haven't read recent issues.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 30 Aug 2006 11:41 pm    
By ashram316

2 things: 

First off, C&D 30 and the 1st part of 31 take place between the pages of CW 3. The final portion of C&D 31 takes place after the fight from CW 3-4 concludes. Apparently Cap and co. return to base before heading out to the chemical plant. They fight DP, then head out to get ambushed by Iron Man and co. 

Second, I went back through CW 3 and took a closer look a the injuries sustained by Cap. On page 19 he gets hit in the face by Iron Man. These injuries seem to match perfectly the injuries he is shown to have in CW:X 2.

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Posted: 31 Aug 2006 06:10 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

You're right about C&DP, ashram. I'll be making adjustments to accommodate this week's comics soon. Thanks for noticing the Cap face bashing. I'll investigate how this interplay between CW and CW:X works out.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 31 Aug 2006 10:54 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quick question: the prisoner-transport sequence in ASM #534 and FF #539 occurs after the big fight seen in CW #3, right? So what's Rage doing there? It's hard to tell from the art -- is he escaping the prisoner transport? When was he captured? I didn't see him in CW #3 -- heck, I don't think I've seen him pop up in *any* Civil War issue yet, except for SH2 #8... 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 31 Aug 2006 02:37 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quick question: the prisoner-transport sequence in ASM #534 and FF #539 occurs after the big fight seen in CW #3, right? So what's Rage doing there? It's hard to tell from the art -- is he escaping the prisoner transport? When was he captured? I didn't see him in CW #3 -- heck, I don't think I've seen him pop up in *any* Civil War issue yet, except for SH2 #8... 
<<<

TBH, I don't think having some BTS captures is really a surprise. If you insisted on showing every individual capture, it would get very monotonus very quickly.

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Posted: 01 Sep 2006 11:38 am    
By Somebody

And now I've read C/D #31 - does this actually fit with CW3? We've got everyone who had been fighting DP going off "on a mission" and Cable coming back afterwards complaining about Thor - but we saw them depart for the set-up in CW3 from their temp civilian IDs. I think FN's out of the loop again... 

[I'm presuming the suddenly-disappearing Young Avengers just decide "leave it to the others, DP's not worth it"] 

(edit: typo fix)

Last edited by Somebody on 01 Sep 2006 02:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 01 Sep 2006 01:57 pm    
By ashram316

The Young Avengers were with Cap and Co. in CW 3 (or at least Wiccan was). For the civi's, maybe they forgot something at the base?? Who knows. 

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Posted: 01 Sep 2006 03:51 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Different mission, maybe? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Sep 2006 05:13 pm    
By Somebody

Probably going to have to be treated as such in the end - they go on a mission, break up, Cap and co go to the diner in their fake IDs then get called to the set-up where Mark Millar forgets Cable can teleport. Pet hate of mine though - it's blatantly intended to lead into it, but it can't work that way, so we have to ASS-u-me that other stuff happened off-panel that was inconsequential to the point of never being mentioned again, y'know.

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Posted: 01 Sep 2006 09:13 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

So...the scene in the diner in which Cap, Bill, Herc, and Danny review their new identities and Bill reacts negatively to his Rockwell moniker (CW 3) happens AFTER the scene in which Wade encounters the quartet, rattles off their new identities, and remarks negatively about the Rockwell moniker, to which Bill says, "See I told you --" (C&DP 30)??? Naahhh. 

Okay... how about this? 

1) Cable (who knows all) inadvertently reveals the new IDs of Cap, Bill, Herc, and the new DD to Deadpool while talking to Cap on a rooftop one night -- C&DP 30 (13-15) 

2) Next morning, Deadpool cases "DD" from a house on Long Island to a place in the city (the Resistance HQ) -- C&DP 30 (16p1-16p4) 

3) Wade cases the HQ all day. Inside the HQ, Danny meets up with Cap, Bill, and Herc and they head to the diner that evening so Cap can brief them on the new IDs Cable already knew about -- BTS 

4) The quartet review their new IDs and Bill express his dislike of the name Rockwell. They receive the distress call about the fire at the petrochemical plant and duck into the alley to change into their costumes and wait for Cloak and Dagger to teleport them -- CW 3 (6-8) 

5) For some unknown reason, Cap has Cloak and Dagger teleport them back to their HQ first -- BTS 

6) Wade finally decides to enter the HQ and encounters Danny, Cap, Bill, and Herc. He reveals his knowledge of their new identities and makes fun of Rockwell, to which Bill says "See I told you --" -- C&DP 30 (16p5-22) 

7) Wade fights the quartet, then Cable shows up and subdues Wade. They wrap Wade in duct tape, then head out to deal with the fire. Bill asks, "what's the mission?" and Cap responds, "we'll brief on the way." Bill may have meant, "what's our game plan on this mission." Wade struggles in his duct tape prison -- C&DP 31 (1-11) 

8) Nathan, Cap, Herc, Bill and Danny rejoin Cloak and Dagger and the Young Avengers, who are elsewhere in the HQ -- BTS 

9) The Resistance members teleport to the petrochemical plant and are ambushed by Iron Man and company -- CW 3 (9-15p2) 

10) The battle continues -- ASM 534-FB 

11) The battle continues, and Thor arrives -- CW 3 (15p3-21) 

12) Thor kicks butt and someone dies -- CW 4 (not yet released) 

13) "Hours" after C&DP 31 (1-11), Cable returns to the HQ and tells the taped-up Wade about Thor killing someone...yadda, yadda -- C&DP 31 (12-22) 


Jeez...how much contorted chronologizing and BTS rationalization will we have to do by the time this CW thing is done??
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Sep 2006 10:12 pm    
By Somebody

(Bearing in mind that, from a C/D perspective, 9-12 are one item) 

That seems far more contorted to me - sure, I don't like the idea of inventing a BTS mission, but the opening of CW2 exists to make it clear they're going on umpteen BTS missions despite being hunted. Insert an hour or more, with your scenario, into their reaction time for the petrochemical thing, and they might as well not go at all, because (a) the "normal" authorities are going to be there and (b) between the heat and the fumes, there aren't going to BE any survivors by that point. It's clumsy to say it's a brief BTS mission but the mission in question in C/D at least is not specifically referenced as the chemical plant, while it's ten times clumsier still to fudge a time-critical reference. I'd rather ignore an offhand comment ("see, I told you") than a plot point (get there quickly), especially when it looks like the diner scene is *their first practice* rather than them getting told the IDs for the first time. 

Call the BTS thing something that gets wrapped up in five minutes or less, like Stilt-Man robbing a bank (completely hypothetical), the four from CW3 go straight to the diner while Cable goes back to join the YAvs in their proper base or something (since the warehouse in C/D #30-31 looks nothing like the base from CW2 - at most, it's the upstairs, visible portion while the real thing is underground or something like that, and quite probably a whole seperate "depot" base).

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Posted: 02 Sep 2006 06:12 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The stories certainly don't work as written. There are two possible solutions here, without doing TOO much violence to the stories. 

CIVIL WAR #3, pp7-9 show Captain America, Hercules, Daredevil II and Goliath in a cafe discussing their new identites. They're wearing civilian clothes appropriate to those identities. So clearly they haven't just shown up at the cafe and been handed an envelope. They knew at least something about their identities before. (Danny even talks about having time to think about character traits for his new persona.) On the other hand, they're telling one another about their new identities, which suggests that this is the first time they've been together to discuss them with one another. Still, there IS scope for them to have their secret identities established to some extent before this scene starts. 

The scene ends with the group receiving word of a "petrochemical plant on fire over by the Hudson". There are "three or four hundred trapped inside." Cloak and Dagger are being sent to collect them, and the heroes go into an alleyway to change. 

After a three panel cutaway to Johnny Storm in hospital, we pick up with the four heroes, in costume and joined by various allies, teleporting into a burning factory complex which the narrator identifies as "Geffen-Meyer Chemicals." Cap asks how many workers there are, and Cable repeats the line "Three or four hundred." However, nobody actually SAYS that they've come direct from the cafe. 

So it's possible that they leave the cafe on page 9, attend another fire entirely, appear in CABLE & DEADPOOL #30-31, and then finally receive the call which leads them to turn up at Geffen-Meyer on page 10. 

There seem to be two possible ways of sequencing this. 

OPTION 1. 

- CABLE & DEADPOOL #30, pp13-15. Cable meets with Captain America on a rooftop and reveals that he knows the new identities of the renegade heroes. Deadpool listens in, and identifies Daredevil as "Cooper Peyton, an engineer from Long Island." (Which is odd in itself, since nobody actually mentions the words "engineer from Long Island" in this scene, so how did Deadpool pick up that information? Anyhow, the clear idea is that he got it from listening in on Cable, perhaps earlier in the evening.) 

- CABLE & DEADPOOL #30, p16 to #31 p9. Deadpool goes to Long Island, finds "Cooper Peyton" leaving his house - where he's clearly already living - and tails him to the rebel heroes' headquarters where he is swiftly defeated and tied up. The heroes leave to go on an unspecified mission. 

- An unspecified mission duly takes place. 

- CIVIL WAR #3, pp7-9. Captain America, Hercules, Goliath and Daredevil II meet up in a cafe and have a conversation about their (already existing) secret identities. They get an alert about a fire at a petrochemical plant and race off to join other heroes, leading to... 

- CIVIL WAR #3, pp10ff and CIVIL WAR #4. A huge fight at Geffen-Meyer, where Thor turns up, somebody is killed, and some heroes are captured. 

- CABLE & DEADPOOL #31, pp12-13. Cable finally arrives back at the abandoned base to let Deadpool out. 

This works if you're prepared to assume that the characters in CIVIL WAR #3 are talking about their pre-existing secret identities, and possibly just exchanging information which the OTHER people around the table don't know. There's at least some support for this in the scene itself. 

OPTION 2: 

- CIVIL WAR #3, pp7-9. Cap, Goliath, Hercules and "Daredevil" meet in a cafe and then race off to a completely different petrochemical fire. 

- CABLE & DEADPOOL #30 p13 to #31 p9. An indeterminate time later, Deadpool learns "Daredevil"'s secret identity by eavesdropping on a conversation between Cable and Captain America. He tails "Daredevil" from his new home to the anti-registration headquarters, attacks and gets defeated. 

- CIVIL WAR #3, p10ff and #4. The rebel heroes are lured into the ambush at Geffen-Meyer and the same action scene plays out. 

- CABLE & DEADPOOL #31, pp12-13. Cable arrives back at the rebel headquarters to release Deadpool. 

Either is workable, but in fairness, CIVIL WAR #3 *does* contain powerful internal evidence that the heroes already have their secret identities up and running by that point, since they're fully dressed for the part.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 02 Sep 2006 11:56 am    
By ashram316

I definately think that the conversation between Cap and Cable occurs before the diner scene. Though it is implied that they head straight to the plant from the diner, is it possible that the warehouse or, whatever that is, where DP is caught is the rendevous point for the heroes who are headed to the plant? Would it make sense to say that: 

1. After leaving the diner, the heroes split up to avoid being seen. 
2. DP finds DD and tails him to the house. 
3. A quick fight ensues in which DP is detained. 
4. The heroes are then teleported to the plant. 
5. Battle occurs. Hours later, Cable returns to free DP. 

This scenario works out a way to incorporate the scenes as close to how they are written without having to make up another fire.

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Posted: 02 Sep 2006 09:14 pm    
By U-Man

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
 You think? 

Actually, Doot, I buy the trades. As stated above, I just got the "Blood of Apocalypse" trade, and immediately noticed the simple clue I mentioned before. 

The other way to cut down on frustration is to not discuss the chronology until I own the books -- but generally by the time I get them, the discussion is long over and placement has been generally agreed-upon, and I haven't been able to have my say. 

This time, when I saw people railroading to a conclusion I didn't like ("let's ignore Lorna!"), I felt compelled to step in -- and so I asked my fellow chronologists for all the clues. 

I didn't get them. That's what bugs me. How did people who were actually quoting me parts of the issue miss things like the "there's no Sentinels" line for over a week? Now I'm starting to worry that there are dozens of other missed clues out there, and because I don't collect the single issues, I won't notice them until it's too late -- the discussions will continue without me, with incomplete information, and the MCP will wind up with incorrect placements. 

(Not that I'm So Much Better than the rest of you, but I believe that every single pair of eyes looking over the material helps.) 

It's just frustrating to have three choices -- stay silent and worry that things are being missed, jump in and risk getting incomplete info from my fellow posters, or start spending more money (which I can't afford) to buy the original issues. 

Which is why I wish people would at least wait until a story-arc is OVER before they start chronologizing. In addition to everyone being able to have the big picture -- ALL the chronology clues from the whole story -- by the time I get the trade, the discussion is still relatively fresh in everyone's mind, and I can weigh in.  
<<<

Do what I do, and flip through the issue in the store without buying it. That got me through all the lead-ups to INFINITE CRISIS save VILLIANS UNITED, the post-Loeb SUPERGIRL, post-OYL SUPERGIRL AND THE LEGION, one or two post-BRAVE NEW WORLD miniseries, and the current WONDER WOMAN run (of all of two issues) without getting yelled at yet. And I've yet to even read a trade. 

(And yes, I know what you're thinking: "If you're such a DC guy, why do you hang out at the Marvel Chronology Project?" Because DC doesn't have an equivalent place with people as committed as you all are, that's why. If it did, it would be standstilled at this point without any clue as to what the post-IC status quo is.)

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Posted: 02 Sep 2006 09:32 pm    
By Somebody

Okay, this is completely off-topic. Feel very, very free to delete 

U-Man wrote: 
>>>
post-OYL SUPERGIRL AND THE LEGION 
<<<

Eugh. Not just post-1YL, the whole post-rereboot series = eugh.

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Posted: 02 Sep 2006 10:04 pm    
By U-Man

Actually, I don't even understand it a lot of the time, even discounting the late date I started reading. But I have my reasons for sticking with it... Feel free to delete this as well.

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Posted: 02 Sep 2006 10:21 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
flip through the issue in the store without buying it. 
<<<

I generally do. But my comic guy has lately been giving me the dick-eye ... sidling up and asking if there's anything he can help me find, which I'm pretty sure translates as "planning to actually *buy* anything?" So I tend to read fast lately  , and don't get all the chronology detail I need. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 04 Sep 2006 03:32 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

ashram316 wrote: 
>>>
I went back through CW 3 and took a closer look a the injuries sustained by Cap. On page 19 he gets hit in the face by Iron Man. These injuries seem to match perfectly the injuries he is shown to have in CW:X 2. 
<<<

You're quite right, ashram. If these injuries do indeed match up, then CW:X 2 (3-12) would have to occur right after the Resistance returns from the big battle with Thor in which someone gets killed. This scene in CW:X 2 (3-12) would be roughly synchronous with Cable's return from that same battle in C&DP 31 (12-22). But let's take this further and link it to the larger scheme of things. 

CW:X 2 (3-12) occurs "two days" after CW:X 1 (17-22), which is the day the original male X-Men take a side against the government. And this in turn occurs the day after CW:X 1 (1-16), the day in which Scott lets the 198 get away. 

Because CW:X marks the X-Men's taking of sides in Civil War, it should happen after the current story arc in X 188-193, which ties into the current story arc in UX 475-486. (That latter story arc can stretch into the future and wouldn't have to occur entirely before CW:X, but it must begin before.) 

UX 475 needs to occur after BP14 18, as noted in previous posts, given Storm's and Xavier's chronologies. BP4 18 picks up from the current arc in NX 25-29. And NX 15 must occur after CW 3 (4-5), given the reference in NX 28 to Stark's visit to Emma in CW 3 (4-5). 

This places a gap of a good couple of weeks between pages 5 and 6 of CW 3 -- between Stark's visit to Emma and the diner scene involving Cap, Goliath, Hercules, and the new DD (which leads directly into the battle in which Cap gets his face bashed by Iron Man). 

So, here's the proposed sequence, in broad strokes (without chopped up segments and flashbacks): 
CW 3 (4-5) 
NX 25-29 
BP4 18 
UX 475-476 
X 188-193 
CW:X 1 (12-22) 
CW:X 2 (1-2) 
CW 3 (6-21) 
CW 4 (or some part thereof) 
CW:X 2 (3-22) 

Before I update the Civil War chronology, I'll need some feedback on this, and it's going to require some major readjustments.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 04 Sep 2006 04:07 pm    
By Somebody

Where. The. HELL are you getting the idea that Supernovas is pre-CW? Is this those Sentinels again? I'm sure there's a line in there referencing the 198's breakout... 

We've got interview comments that this team is going to break off from the mansion at the end of the arc (which takes Iceman out of the picture), and you're tying Cable's chronology in knots again 

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/article/showquestion.asp?faq=11&fldAuto=280 
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=6591 
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=57009 
http://www.yourmomsbasement.com/archives/2006/07/interview_with_5.html#more 

[And I don't see the "right after" - soon after, certainly, but swelling isn't instant and doesn't diffuse instantly. Could be a day or more...]

Last edited by Somebody on 04 Sep 2006 04:22 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Posted: 04 Sep 2006 04:08 pm    
By ashram316

And don't forget C&DP  I suggest something along these lines: 

CW 3 (4-5) 
NX 25-29 
BP4 18 
UX 475-476 
X 188-193 
CW:X 1 (12-22) 
CW:X 2 (1-2) 
CW 3 (6-8) 
C&DP 30 (16-22) 
C&DP 31 (1-10) 
CW 3 (9-22) 
CW 4 (or some part thereof) 
C&DP 31 (11-22) 
CW:X 2 (3-22)

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Posted: 04 Sep 2006 06:16 pm    
By JD

Er, yeah. Why can't UX 475-... and X 188-... be post-CW ?

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Posted: 04 Sep 2006 09:58 pm    
By Mikhail

Indeed. While we don't know how Civil War: X-Men will necessarily turn out, I don't think the original X-Men's actions really constitute the mutants "taking a side".

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Posted: 04 Sep 2006 10:14 pm    
By ashram316

I personally don't like the idea of them being post-civil war because that would put too much distance between Vulcan leaving for space and Xavier doing anything about it. If they do not occur during Civil War, then we should consider putting them before it. I know that Xavier, et al appear in Civil War issues, but who's to say that Xavier and co haven't saved the galaxy and made it back by then? So far, it seems to require the least stretching to put the arcs during Civil War, but to put it afterwards makes no sense at all to me.

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Posted: 05 Sep 2006 01:55 am    
By Somebody

*blinks* 

You... want to put TWELVE issues of Uncanny between DG6 and CW1? 

Reducto ad absurdium...

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Posted: 05 Sep 2006 04:48 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

It's not absurd at all, the way you've stated it. We've put as many as thirty issues of Thor between two issues of Avengers. 


watching: the cave

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Posted: 05 Sep 2006 06:10 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Where. The. HELL are you getting the idea that Supernovas is pre-CW? 
<<<

Easy now, somebody...easy... 


Quote: 
>>>
We've got interview comments that this team is going to break off from the mansion at the end of the arc (which takes Iceman out of the picture),  
<<<

somebody, this is exactly why I'm asking the group. Did I know that Iceman was slated to leave at the end of the Supernovas story arc? No, because it's not evident from the comics I've read so far. 


Quote: 
>>>
And I don't see the "right after" - soon after, certainly, but swelling isn't instant and doesn't diffuse instantly. Could be a day or more...] 
<<<

Cap's swollen face isn't the only clue about timing. He's shown being bandaged up and his costume is in tatters. You're saying that Cap would be wearing the tattered costume for a day or more after the battle happened?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 05 Sep 2006 08:37 am    
By jephyork
Director

Again: can we not wait until the stories in question END before we decide what order they occur in? 

There's plenty of other stuff we can be working on right now. 

Paul, didn't you want to give Inferno a nice polish? That was supposed to be "our next project" after the Kang War discussion ended...  

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Sep 2006 12:10 pm    
By ashram316

Okay, let's take a little detour to talk about some finished stories then. Let's talk about 'the collective.' I haven't read it yet (waiting for the trade). From what I have heard, I assume that it comes after X: DG. If this is the case, that would place both DG and the collective between X 187 and Cap going underground at the end of CW 1.

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Posted: 05 Sep 2006 12:49 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I have some inside info about X:DG -- I'm going to branch discussion of A4 #16-20 off into a new thread. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 05 Sep 2006 08:29 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Paul, didn't you want to give Inferno a nice polish? That was supposed to be "our next project" after the Kang War discussion ended...  
<<<

But I'm having so much fun with this Civil War stuff...  
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 25 Sep 2006 12:03 am    
By simmo

So how does FF fit in with CW#4, what with the Thing leaving the country in the last issue of FF yet watching Sue & johnny leave in CW#4.

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Posted: 25 Sep 2006 04:15 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

ashram316 wrote: 
>>>
I personally don't like the idea of them being post-civil war because that would put too much distance between Vulcan leaving for space and Xavier doing anything about it. 
<<<

I don't see that as a problem. By the time of UX 475, Professor X has apparently been trying to contact the Shi'ar without success for some time. Moreover, he can't leave Earth until he's got a ship, and he needs the help of Reed and Tony to find it, as mentioned in UX 476. It's unlikely to be a top priority for them during Civil War, even if they were capable of finding the ship instantly (and who says they are?).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 25 Sep 2006 10:13 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
So how does FF fit in with CW#4, what with the Thing leaving the country in the last issue of FF yet watching Sue & johnny leave in CW#4. 
<<<

Obviously, the FF issue (#539) occurs after CW #4. 

(Doesn't it even reference the battle scene from FF #4?) 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 25 Sep 2006 10:37 am    
By ashram316

I see your point. I was looking through it and noticed that Xavier mentioned that he had been back for several weeks. This still doesn't force UX 475 to be after CW, but it gives us room to put it there if need be. Again, only time will tell. 

In regards to FF and CW 4, I woud say that FF 539 occurs after CW 4. IIRC, Sue and Johnny are no where to be found. The Thing is the only member shown. Sue and Johnny left for Cap's team and Ben leaves at the end of the issue leaving poor Reed by himself.  

Curse my slow typing, double checking of issue!! 

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Posted: 25 Sep 2006 12:20 pm    
By Antonio Gavio

Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
So how does FF fit in with CW#4, what with the Thing leaving the country in the last issue of FF yet watching Sue & johnny leave in CW#4. 
<<<

Obviously, the FF issue (#539) occurs after CW #4.  
<<<

Now wait a minute here, Ben doesn't leave the country at the end of FF 539, he only announces his decision to do it. FF 539 happens in between panels of CW 4. Obviously the funeral depicted in CW 4 doesn't happen the same night of his death, which goes to tell us it could be the evening of the next day at the earliest (this is a worst case scenario, I don't think it happens that soon though). On the other hand, the scenes in FF 539 happen the morning after the death in CW 4 as referenced in ASM 534 that shows scenes of the same events. Therefore FF 539 goes between pages 16 and 17 of CW 4, after the death but before the funeral. 
Ben still has to be waiting for the day of his flight to leave the country when he sees Sue leave at the end of CW 4.

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Posted: 26 Sep 2006 06:05 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Antonio, I edited your post to prevent spoilers for those who haven't yet read CW 4.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 26 Sep 2006 06:14 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I suspect that Iron Man's reference to the big battle in CW 4 as having occurred "yesterday" on page 1 of ASM 534 is not going to hold up. I think there's a gap between pages 17 and 18 of FF 538 that allows the funeral in CW 4 to occur, allows Johnny to recover fully, allows for Sue's action in CW 4, and allows for Cap to recover.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 29 Sep 2006 10:22 pm
By Kevin W.
Director

I just wanted to add this little tidbit from Joe Quesada over at his weekly "Joe Friday's" colum on Newsarama, (and if you don't get the joke, Joe Quesada is basically going around his office beating up his editors): 

Quote: 
>>>
Q - The Skoot: Given recent events, is the current arc on Astonishing X-Men pre- or post-Civil War? 

JQ: Hey Skoot, I went in to Editor Nick Lowes office to get the answer directly from the source. Well, Nick isnt really the source but he does speak to the source or The Whedon as we like to refer to it. For some reason Nick isnt anywhere to be found, his office mates said he just ran out like he was afraid of something, but he did leave this note. 

"Post! It takes place when the last issue comes out. At that moment in continuity. Please dont hurt me- NL" 

Well, there you have it!  
<<<

Well, that's unexpected...I was thinking that the current arc in Astonishing was Pre-Civil War...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 30 Sep 2006 05:49 am    
By Somebody

Honestly, that was where I expected it to go as well, since anything else would require a major resetbuttionation. 

Of course, it makes all the internal references even more screwy, and might mean that Fury's finally back in charge at SHIELD at that point despite AXM using Maria Hill, but - hey - that's the price for using core MU characters as if they're off to the side 

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Posted: 02 Oct 2006 10:37 pm    
By ashram316

Did anyone else notice the reference to X 188 in W 46? 

Wolverine references Rogue absorbing Emma's memories when she absorbed her powers 'that time.' This isn't necessarliy hard proof that X 188 occurs before this, as he could be referencing another incedent off panel, but it looks as though this was intended to be talking about X 188.

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Posted: 06 Oct 2006 06:40 pm    
By JD

Seen in this week's Joe's New Fridays : 

Quote: 
>>>
Justice and Rage are among the detainees who are rescued by Cap's underground in the "Battle of Yancy Street" seen in Amazing Spider-Man #533-534 and Fantastic Four #538-539. And for those who've asked, that battle takes place in-between pages of Civil War #4, after the battle at the Chemical Plant, but before Goliath's funeral. 
<<<

Does this work ?

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Posted: 06 Oct 2006 08:46 pm    
By ashram316

I don't see why it wouldn't. Either way, it definately takes place before Sue and Johnny leave at the end of CW 4. I am more concerned with the placement of ASM 535 and FF 540. Personally, I think it works better to put them after the end of CW 4, but I can see it go either way.

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Posted: 06 Oct 2006 11:04 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

ashram316 wrote: 
>>>
I am more concerned with the placement of ASM 535 and FF 540. Personally, I think it works better to put them after the end of CW 4, but I can see it go either way. 
<<<

I think it makes more sense for them to occur considerably after CW 4 for two reasons. 

1) In CW 4 and FF 540, Sue leaves Reed in two fundamentally different ways. If FF 540 were to occur first, then it means Sue storms out (pun intended) in a huff causing tens of thousands of dollars of damage to the building in the process. Then she reconciles with Reed off-camera sometime, spends a wonderful day with him... and then leaves again. If CW 4 occurs first, then Sue leaves Reed quietly for an indetermanent amount of time, comes back fuming, gets into a big fight, and THEN goes ballistic on the building. It seems to flow much more coherently with CW 4 occurring first. 

2) Sue has a line in FF 540 that's something like, "I think we're long past talking, don't you, Reed?" To me, that implies that they've been fighting about this issue for a while, which they only just started fighting about in CW 4. 

For what it's worth, I put FF 540 (and, by extension, ASM 535) after CW 4, SH4 10, TB 105 and New Avengers 21. I haven't gone back to double check those too closely yet, though.

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Posted: 06 Oct 2006 11:25 pm    
By ashram316

Did you mean New Avengers 23? I have 21 occuring shortly after CW 1, since it shows Cap beginning to recruit his team.

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Posted: 07 Oct 2006 12:10 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Sorry, yes. I meant #23.

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Posted: 07 Oct 2006 03:17 pm    
By ashram316

No problem. I am here to keep you guys on your toes 

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Posted: 07 Oct 2006 04:45 pm   
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I agree with Sean. 

First Sue leaves with Johnny to join Cap's forces. Ben sees them go. 

Then the Battle of Yancy Street occurs and Ben decides to leave the country. Spidey misses the climax of the battle and so doesn't know about Ben. 

Probably that same day, Sue returns to the Baxter Building for an undisclosed reason (perhaps never intending to be seen), decides to act when she sees Wildstreak imprisoned, and argues with the husband she left. She wrecks the place and finalizes her departure. Ben returns to the Baxter Building (fresh from Yancy Street) and tells Reed he's going to France. 

Probably the next day (after not being able to sleep), Spidey shows up at the Baxter Building with Iron Man to check out Negative Zone Prison Alpha. Ben's and Sue's departures are news to him. 

Then that night, Spidey makes a fateful decision. 

I'm working on how all the page/panel ranges synch up between FF 539-540 and ASM 534-535 -- all post-CW 4.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 09 Oct 2006 11:12 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul, I already did ASM 535 and FF 540 if you want to save yourself some effort. Ican try to post it later tonight.

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Posted: 09 Oct 2006 09:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director


Oops. Too late. I put this together yesterday. Let's see how your analysis compares, Sean: 


Monday 
FANTASTIC FOUR #538 (18-22) 
One night. The Mad Thinker and the Puppet Master plan to hit a security van carrying the captured Resistance members to prison tomorrow at ten. Meanwhile in Oklahoma, Don Blake arrives, grabs Thors hammer, and flies off with it. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (1-3p3) 
The same night as FF 538 (18-22). Knowing that Iron Man will be moving the detainees out sometime tomorrow morning, Cap (now recovered) outlines a plan to free the detainees for Cage, Cloak, Dagger, and the new Daredevil in their underground lair. Theyre interrupted by Cee and two of his fellow Yancy Streeters, who give Cap some intel on the route the security convoy will take. 

Tuesday 
FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (3p4-8p3) 
The morning after FF 539 (1-3). This segment must occur after CW 4 (19-20). The Puppet Master and Thinker prepare for the carnage theyll unleash during the transport of apprehended Resistance members from a temporary holding facility to a more permanent facility. Cap and his associates prepare to leave their lair to intercept the convoy. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #534 (3-6) 
The same morning as FF 539 (3-8). CW 4 (1-14) cannot have occurred yesterday. Iron Man and his associates (Spidey, Yellowjacket, Wasp, She-Hulk, and Ms. Marvel) escort the security convoy. As they do, Spidey thinks about the protestors they pass and discovers that Iron Man knows about his spider-sense. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (8p4-9) 
The same morning as ASM 534 (3-6). As the convoy moves on, Ben eats a sandwich in a deli, whose owner tells him about a protest march on Yancy Street at ten oclock. Seeing that its just after ten, Ben rushes out of the deli. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #534 (7-9p5) ~ FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (10-12) 
The same morning as FF 539 (8-9). Spidey detects remaining Resistance fighters heading for them, so they switch routes and end up at Yancy Street, where the heroes are pelted with junk. Tigra is among Iron Mans associates. Spideys spider-sense tingles. Green trees in New York. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (13p1-13p4) 
The same morning as ASM 534 (7-9). Realizing that Spidey is sensing them, Puppet Master and Thinker decide to act immediately. They possess the pilot of a flying escort and make him fire a missile at the ground convoy. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #534 (9p6-10p3) ~ FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (13p5-14p3) 
The same morning as FF 539 (13p1-13p4). Spidey warns of the approaching missiles and Iron Man and Ms. Marvel destroy most of them, but two get through. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #534 (10p4) 
The same morning as ASM 534 (9-10). The two missiles approach Spidey. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (14p4) 
The same morning as ASM 534 (10p4). Spidey extends his arms and yells, Ive got em! Ive got em! Ive. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #534 (10p5-10p6) 
The same morning as FF 539 (14p4). Spidey shoots webs at the missiles and slings them away, yelling (again), Ive got em! Ive got em! Ive. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (14p5-15) 
The same morning as ASM 534 (10p5-10p6). The Thing arrives and sees Spidey being slingshot by the departing missiles. He turns and sees the crashing of the security van carrying the detainees. Rage escapes the van. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #534 (10p7-11) 
The same morning as FF 539 (14-15). The missiles carry Spidey into the sky and he makes them crash into each other. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (16-17) 
The same morning as ASM 534 (10-11). Iron Man orders the Thing to prevent the prisoners from escaping. The Resistance arrives and asks Ben to help them with the escape. Puppet Master and Thinker remotely possess a Yancy Streeter named Mouse into activating a bomb, which falls to the ground when Cee tackles Mouse. The Thing plans to use the emptied van as a shield for the bomb. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #534 (12-20) 
The same morning as FF 539 (16-17). The Thing lifts up the van. Somewhere nearby, Cap offers Spidey one last chance to join the Resistance, but Spidey refuses. They fight, and Spidey webs up Caps shield. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (18) 
The same morning as ASM 534 (12-20). The Thing throws the van on top of the bomb, which explodes. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #534 (21-22) 
The same morning as FF 539 (18). The explosion forces Cap to ditch his fight with Spidey. Spidey decides not to keep the shield but to web it up in a safe place for Cap to retrieve later. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (19-23) 
The same morning as ASM 534 (21-22). When the Puppet Master speaks through Mouse, the Thing recognizes the villain. Then he sees Cee lying dead in the street. Cap returns and confirms that all the detainees escaped, and Iron Man prepares his team to attack Cap. Holding Cees corpse, Ben Grimm reams into both sides of the battle. Cap and Iron Man each try to talk him into joining his side, but the Thing tells them to go to hell. He says he cant take a side and storms off, saying hes leaving the country. Spidey is not present to witness this. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #540 (1-17) 
It must be the same day as FF 539 (19-23). In the Baxter Building, Reed prepares a containment field holding Wildstreak for transportation to Negative Zone Prison Alpha. An unseen force frees Wildstreak and helps her escape  its Sue, who has apparently returned to the Baxter Building for an undisclosed reason (perhaps intending to remain unnoticed). Reed calls her out and they argue. Sue loses her cool and shows off her power by punching a force field through the building. Reed asks her to leave and she does, finalizing their break. Ben arrives (probably fresh from the Battle of Yancy Street) and tells Reed hes leaving for France. Ben asks Reed if Sue left and Reed just says goodbye. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #534 (23) 
The same night as FF 539 (19-23). Cap retrieves his shield as Spidey looks on and Peter further questions his choice of sides. 

Wednesday 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #535 (1-2) 
Probably the early morning after ASM 534 (23), since Spidey doesnt know why Ben Grimm is gone in ASM 535 (4p2-4p6); he also doesnt know that Sue has left. At 2:34 AM, M.J. wakes up to discover Peter watching a TV news report about how Stark Enterprises and Fantastic Four Inc. are profiting from the Civil War. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #535 (3-4p1) 
Probably the same evening as ASM 535 (1-2), Peter asks Stark to see the detention area in which non-registered superhumans are being held. Stark complies and the duo head to the Baxter Building. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #540 (18p1-18p3) 
The same evening as ASM 535 (1-4). Peter and Iron Man arrive at the Baxter Building and notice the damage wrought by Sue. Peter asks Reed if hes okay. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #535 (4p2-4p6) ~ FANTASTIC FOUR #540 (18p3-19p3) 
The same evening as FF 540 (18p1-18p3). Peter asks Reed where Ben and Sue are and Reed replies that Ben has taken a leave of absence. Reed prepares to open the portal to the Negative Zone and Peter is shocked that the prison is there. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #535 (4p6) 
The same evening as ASM 535 (4p2-4p6). Reed tells Peter to grab a thruster pack. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #540 (19p4) 
The same evening as ASM 535 (4p6). Reed opens the portal. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #535 (5) 
The same evening as FF 540 (19p4). Peter and Iron Man prepare to step through the portal. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #540 (19p5-20p4) 
The same evening as ASM 535 (5). Reed closes the door after Peter and Stark step through. Rain starts to come in through the hole that Sue punched in the roof. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #535 (6-13p2) 
The same evening as FF 540 (19-20). Stark shows Peter Negative Zone Prison Alpha, where they see Prodigy, Gladiatrix, and Living Mummy. When Stark tells Peter that inmates in this prison are there permanently, Peter objects and they argue. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #535 (13p3-13p6) ~ FANTASTIC FOUR #540 (20p5-20p8) 
The same evening as ASM 535 (6-13). Peter and Iron Man return to the Baxter Building. As Stark presumably goes to the john, Peter asks Reed why hes doing this. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #535 (14p1-14p2) 
The same evening as ASM 535 (13p3-13p6). Reed starts to explain. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #535 (14p2-14p5) ~ FANTASTIC FOUR #540 (21p1-21p3) 
The same evening as ASM 535 (14p1-14p2). Reed tells Peter a story about his blacklisted uncle. Iron Man eavesdrops. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #535 (14p6-14p7) 
The same evening as ASM 535 (14p2-14p5). Reed continues his story. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #535 (15p1-16p4) ~ FANTASTIC FOUR #540 (21p4-22p4) 
The same evening as ASM 535 (14p6-14p7). Reed finishes his story and explains why he must side with the law. After eavesdropping, Iron Man returns and tells Peter its time to go. Peter tells Reed he would have liked his uncle but that Reed loved him. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #535 (16p5) 
The same evening as ASM 535 (15-16). Reed is left alone. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #540 (22p5-22p6) 
The same evening as ASM 535 (16p5). Reed contemplates his story and Peters remarks. 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #535 (17-21) 
The same night as FF 540 (22p5-22p6). Once outside, Iron Man asks Peter to go to L.A. tomorrow to help with a new program tentatively called the 50-State Initiative. Later at Avengers Tower (with Watchtower spires), Peter awakens M.J. and May and tells them hes made a terrible mistake. He tells them to get away now and as they flee, Iron Man bursts in and attacks Spidey.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 09 Oct 2006 09:43 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Mine came out almost exactly the same. The only difference I saw was how I broke up the bit when Spidey and Iron Man were actually in the Negative Zone while Reed was still in the Baxter Building... 

FF 540 p. 19 panels 5-6 
ASM 535 pp. 6-12 
FF 540 p. 20 panels 1-4 
ASM 535 p. 13 panels 1-2 

From the MCP's perspective, though, it's a moot point since those particular portions don't share any common character appearances.

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Posted: 10 Oct 2006 06:10 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

The difference, as you note, is pretty minor. Either could be the proper sequence of events; mine just involves fewer separate listings. 

Glad we're on the same page. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 10 Oct 2006 08:52 pm    
By JD

From Tom Brevoort : 
http://www.marvel.com/blogs/Tom_Brevoort/entry/480 

Quote: 
>>>
So to put this in practical terms that you can understand, the sequence of events in CIVIL WAR goes like this: 

CIVIL WAR #3-4: The heroes battle it out at the chemical plant. Goliath is killed 

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #533-534/FANTASTIC FOUR #538-539: The "Battle of Yancy Street" takes place as prisoners are moved from one location to the next. The Thing decides to leave the battlefield. 

FANTASTIC FOUR #540: Reed and Sue have a fight. Sue storms out. Ben says, "She's left you, huh?" 

CIVIL WAR #4: Hours or days later, Sue and Johnny leave the Baxter Building with their things, intent on joining up with Cap's crew. 
<<<

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Posted: 10 Oct 2006 09:30 pm    
By ashram316

Ugh, so. . . they have a huge fight. Sue storms out. Comes back. Makes dinner. Has sex. Leaves quietly in the night? I guess it works, but I think it works better the way we had it. Is there any way we can override the official explanation?? 

			*	*	*

ashram316 wrote: 
>>>
Is there any way we can override the official explanation?? 
<<<

Well, you could ask your question on Tom's blog. He might have an explanation. 

Alternatively, we could wait until Civil War is finished, to determine if his proposed chronology makes a little more sense, in hindsight. 


watching: fox 6 news

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Posted: 10 Oct 2006 10:38 pm    
By ashram316

My line about overriding the official explanation was mostly a joke. Obviously only time will tell what order makes most sense.

			*	*	*

New interview with Giffen: 
http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/001984006.cfm 

Section of interest: "When I was discussing it with Andy [Schmidt], I believe he said that Annihilation takes place before Civil War."

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Posted: 12 Oct 2006 05:26 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Ugh, so. . . they have a huge fight. Sue storms out. Comes back. Makes dinner. Has sex. Leaves quietly in the night? I guess it works, but I think it works better the way we had it.  
<<<

Our way makes more sense, at least in the short run. That's the way I'll keep it until we see evidence that Brevoort's order is best in the long run. If no such evidence comes to light, let's ask Tom.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Oct 2006 06:21 pm    
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
until we see evidence that Brevoort's order is best in the long run. 
<<<

There may well be. 


In a further segment of the same post : 
Tom Brevoort wrote: 
>>>
There's actually some more FF-related events that go on in and around some of the events I just listed, but because they'll be happening in books that we haven't released yet, I'm not including them in this example. 
<<<

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Posted: 12 Oct 2006 11:39 pm    
By Frederic Krier

JLH wrote: 
>>>
New interview with Giffen: 
http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/001984006.cfm 

Section of interest: "When I was discussing it with Andy [Schmidt], I believe he said that Annihilation takes place before Civil War." 
<<<

Which is just the opposite of what Dan Slott says on the CBR message board, who places the current appearance of Thanos in She-Hulk before the destruction of the Nova Corps: 


Quote: 
>>>
So? What does happen in SHE-HULK #12? 

Thanos shows up in his classic costume, Heather is confused by this, and Thanos gives her an explanation. 

Just wait an issue before you jump to more "slamming" conclusions, okay? 

Geez... 

For the record: I am LOVING each and every issue of ANNIHILATION-- wouldn't miss it for the world-- and not just for the cool cosmic scripts by Mr. Giffen-- but also for the pulse-pounding pencils by my THING-pal, Andrea DiVito. 

(You'll also notice that She-Hulk herself makes ref. to the Nova Corps of Xandar in this issue-- showing that they were still around (to Shulkie's knowledge) at the top of the issue). 
<<<

Well, hopefully we'll know more after #13...

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Posted: 15 Oct 2006 03:39 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Does anyone have a clue about what's going on in the last story in CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #5 and when it happens? Spidey's back in his classic costume, but is he on Iron Man's side or fighting him? Phone Ranger is in this story, but who are the others? The last story in each issue of FRONT LINE usually repeats a scene published elsewhere and adds new details, but I don't recognize where else this scene was published. Perhaps it's a scene that we've yet to see in another comic?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 15 Oct 2006 10:04 pm    
By Mikhail

It was Phone Ranger, Lectronn, Lightbright, and Wildstreak. The last hero has already been seen escaping the Baxter Building in the latest FF, which coincides with Spider-Man's defection, so the story definitely happened already in CW continuity. I think it was just thrown in there at the end when no other story in the issue really warranted a revisit. And Spidey's new armor can simulate the old costume, so no worries there.

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Posted: 16 Oct 2006 06:04 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Mikhail. I knew that I had just seen Wildstreak somewhere, but I find it difficult keeping fourth-tier superbeings straight. 

I find it odd that this story is not repeated elsewhere, as other final stories in CW:FL are. Also, that Spidey would choose this occasion to assume the original costume design. Oh well...
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 21 Oct 2006 10:43 pm    
By Mikhail

Okay, some concerns about Solo. A year or so before Civil War, he joined the Six Pack in Cable / Deadpool under SHIELD's command. In Civil War: Front Line #4, he's one of the underground dissidents caught by the cape-killers in a raid. Battlestar was also caught in the raid, and we've since seen him in the Negative Zone prison. This week, though, Solo is shown as a member of the Six Pack still in the pages of Cable / Deadpool. 

So...what? Did he join the establishment, develop a violent anti-SHRA sentiment for a time, then get over it when they threatened to put him in prison? Sketchy timeline. 

Also, Cable / Deadpool #33 refers to Solo as a mutant; he's not, his power comes from a mechanical implant. Maybe this is Solo II, a new mutant assuming the old guy's identity?

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Posted: 22 Oct 2006 07:16 am    
By ashram316

Without having read it, I'd say it all depends on how the mutant reference played out. If it was a throw away line or two, it's probably just a mistake. Solo panicking at the idea of spending the rest of his life in the negative zone is a reasonable explanation for his current turn around. If the mutant reference is more than just a line or two (i.e. he tells a story about how hard it was growing up as a mutant) I'd consider adding a new character. It all depends on how concrete the evidence is.

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Posted: 23 Oct 2006 12:35 pm    
By Frederic Krier

Solo is called a "mutant covert soldier" in a narrative caption, he's not calling himself a mutant nor is he called a mutant by anyone other than the narrator in the book. 
I don't see a big problem with him rejoining the Six Pack either: he left them at some point, as he's more of a solo player anyway; didn't like the idea of the registration act; joins up with Battlestar's resistance group; gets captured and transferred to the Negative Zone; agrees to work for SHIELD once more, rather than staying in prison. 

Also: a reader is awarded a no-prize on the letters page of C&DP 33 for pointing out, that the "Flag Smasher" appearing in Civil War: Young Avengers & Runaways is a new one, at least the 
third one. I quote: "I suppose the death of Flag Smasher prompted some bulky former ULTIMATUM member, living on the West Coast, to don the old costume in his former uberlibertarian master's memory [but gets captured by the Runaways; in the CW: YA&R 1 FB] [...] One of his roommates, another former ULTIMATUM member, took up the cause, and was quickly captured as well. And thus the process repeats until we get the current guy." 
This sounds reasonable enough, Flag Smasher wasn't exactly acting in character either (even though I think you only need one Flag Smasher imposter, not an army of them...)

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Posted: 23 Oct 2006 06:38 pm    
By Mikhail

Heh. Maybe Flag-Smasher has inspired a legion of ULTIMATUM soldiers to pull an "I Am Spartacus" routine in his absence.

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Posted: 24 Oct 2006 03:04 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Wasn't this interpretation already approved in CIVIL WAR FILES?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 Nov 2006 12:06 pm    
By Somebody

Anyone got a plug-in point for CW: Young Avengers/Runaways yet? Tom B said it took place "between two pages" of CW-proper a while back, and now the main book's progressed it's clearly before the big fight in CW3, but I don't see where. 

And Thunderbolts' current arc looks like it may prove tricky, given the ending to TB108 and the appearance of Atlas and Joystick as Tbolt members in CW5, combined with the fact that Fabian himself has only a vague idea of how the two fit together (and last time that happened, we got the Tbolts Enemy of the State tie-in...)

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Posted: 16 Nov 2006 03:34 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Couple of notes on CW 5 from Tom B. via Newsarama. Most of this, I should think, is obvious, but I'm adding it here to keep an active/concise record of things... 

Newsarama wrote: 
>>>
Tom, ballparking  how much time has passed since the end of issue #4, where we saw a relatively peaceful departure for Sue and Johnny, and the start of issue #5 where theyre (pardon the pun) in the heat of things? 
<<<

Tom Brevoort wrote: 
>>>
Its been a couple of days at least, maybe a week  I havent tracked it that specifically against all of the tie-ins to determine an exact amount of time thats passed. 
<<<

And... 
Tom Brevoort wrote: 
>>>
Amazing {Spider-Man} #536 picks up right after Spidey is blown out of the wall in the opening seven pages or so, and then runs parallel to the rest of Civil War #5 (and even a little bit beyond it). 
<<<

And finally... 
Newsarama wrote: 
>>>
How did DD/Danny go from being at the meeting on one page to being captured on the next? Was his capture planned by the Anti-Reg forces? 
<<<

Tom Brevoort wrote: 
>>>
Well, theres a time jump between pages. Some of the crossover tie-ins take place within that gap. But for the purposes of reading only Civil War, it didnt seem prudent to add any sort of time-stamp to the HELLS KITCHEN locator caption when we segue to the Daredevil scene. 
<<<

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Posted: 09 Dec 2006 11:10 am    
By Chris McCarver

Thought I'd throw this into the discussion: one of my forum-mates on the Bendis Boards is working hard on a CW timeline of his own, complete with feedback from that lovable curmudgeon Tom Brevoort. 

Linkable at: http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=87090
_________________
chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

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Posted: 21 Dec 2006 01:34 pm    
By Somebody

Well, the Iron Man and Thunderbolts issues are in, and there's only one way they can go - unfortunately, they're both a little awkward, especially Thunderbolts, where the clear intention is that Songbird & co don't meet the Killerbolts until the end of TB109, but that's not explicitly stated, and two cameos (one of Zemo in Iron Man #14 and one involving Atlas & Joystick in Civil War #5) mean the whole Wellspring arc has to be after Civil War #5; while Iron Man #13 must have a split somewhere in the middle for the opening scene of Civil War #5 to go, and, and, given the footnoting in ASM, Iron Man #14 may be after at least part of CW6.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Dec 2006 08:59 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
especially Thunderbolts, where the clear intention is that Songbird & co don't meet the Killerbolts until the end of TB109, but that's not explicitly stated, and two cameos (one of Zemo in Iron Man #14 and one involving Atlas & Joystick in Civil War #5) mean the whole Wellspring arc has to be after Civil War #5 
<<<

Unfortunately, that doesn't work if you consider Civil War: War Crimes. Pages 25-30 of CW:WC 1 follow directly from the capture of Cloak and Dagger noted in CW 5. CW 5 must occur between pages 24 and 25 of CW:WC 1. Pages 22-24 of CW:WC 1 occur "one week" after pages 19-21 of CW:WC 1, which in turn occurs after the death of Slyde in pages 15-18 of CW:WC 1. Slyde's death has to follow his appearance in TB 107. Thus TB 106-109 should occur some time before CW 5. 

This sequence would support the notion that Songbird and company do indeed meet the "Killerbolts" for the first time in TB 109. But, then, what are Atlas, Joystick, and several other non-"Killerbolt" members of the Thunderbolt Army doing with the Killerbolts in CW 5? Last we knew, Joystick was heading for the Negative Zone prison in TB 109, but what if she agreed to have a chip planted in her to work for the government and avoid the N-Zone? And could the other non-Killerbolts from CW 5 been retained for government work without necessarily forming the core of the new T-Bolts? But what about Atlas? Could he have somehow recovered from his condition in TB 109 to be up and about (but not necessarily ion-charged) in CW 5? (That's iffy, damn.) 

As for Iron Man, I have a gap between pages 10 and 11 of IM4 13, with pages 11-21 as well as IM4 14 going after CW 5. Unfortunately, if TB 109 occurs before CW 5 and CW 5 occurs before IM4 14, what the heck is Zemo doing on page 3 of IM4 14 in the rehab unit containing a bunch of T-Bolt recruits you'd expect to be here just prior to TB 104? 

Um, could page 1, panel 1 through page 3, panel 2 of IM4 14 be a flashback??
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 05 Jan 2007 03:02 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

A few more for-the-record notes courtesy of Newsarama and Tom Brevoort. These pertain specifically to Civil War #6... 

Newsarama wrote: 
>>>
First off, just 'cause it's kinda fun and we figure you have to tilt your head back and let your eyes unfocus to figure it, and that's a fun mental image - with issue #6, about how long has it been since Stamford in "Marvel Time?" 
<<<

Tom Brevoort wrote: 
>>>
I think its been a vague couple of weeks, maybe a little over a month. A lot has happened in a very short amount of time. 
<<<

And... 
Newsarama wrote: 
>>>
So - er, you can sneak into Ryker's if you're invisible, or did Tony let Cap's force in? 
<<<

Tom Brevoort wrote: 
>>>
Theres a bit more to this scene that youll see elsewhere, in Black Panther #25 for one. So no, its not quite so easy. Also, Zemo gave Captain America a key to the joint back in the Thunderbolts tie-ins. 
<<<

Newsarama wrote: 
>>>
Got it. Going from what Hulkling said, then - the entire issue took place in the space of one day?  
<<<

Tom Brevoort wrote: 
>>>
Since we never see Hulkling knock out Pym and take his placewe only see Hank and the disguised Hulkling go off together on page 3theres at least the potential for more time to have passed during this issue than merely one day. 
<<<

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jan 2007 10:31 pm    
By Somebody

Some characters from CW6 I had trouble IDing. Could someone fill me in plze? 

From the double-page spread: 

Between Falcon and Spidey (white/blond guy in orange & blue suit, glowing hands) 

Between Hercules and Prodigy (black guy in white domino mask, big white collar and mostly red costume) 

Between Prodigy & Invisible Woman (red-mohawked woman) 

Between Cage & Cap (white, white part-face mask, not much to see) 

The three between Solo and Iron Man (white guy with scarred or tattooed face, white guy in black cloak with Raven-style shadows face; electric-blue skinned woman)


From the last page: 

The dreadlocked black woman with a metal/gold oval on her forehead and, from what little we see of it, a Ms Marvel/Warbird-style costume behind Wiccan to our left 

And the guy in a Black Knight-style helmet behind Wiccan to his right (Constrictor?)


Oh, and two OH ^%&* moments: 

Blizzard and MACH-IV are both in the lineup on Iron Man's side - and Blizzard's in his pre-New Tbolts #12 costume to boot - along with Fixer. The Tbolts/CW chronology hashed out in this thread just went completely out the window. 

Solo - sorting Cable/Deadpool #33-34 and Solo's appearances in Frontline and here is going to be fun. Can the order go C/D #33-34, Frontline #4, CW6, remembering that Cable/Deadpool #31 bridges over the big CW3-4 fight and that Solo's working **for** SHIELD in C/D and is anti-reg in FL & here?

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Jan 2007 11:06 pm    
By Mikhail
Director

From the double-page spread: 
-Lectronn 
-Battlestar 
-Gladiatrix 
-Coldblood-7 
-Typeface 
-Shroud 
-Network 

From the last page: 
-Lightbright 
-Black Crow

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jan 2007 11:50 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Blizzard and MACH-IV are both in the lineup on Iron Man's side - and Blizzard's in his pre-New Tbolts #12 costume to boot - along with Fixer. The Tbolts/CW chronology hashed out in this thread just went completely out the window. 
<<<

Now bear with me, as I haven't read the T-Bolts issues in question -- but is there any reason that Blizzard, Mach-IV and Fixer can't be there, even after the downsizing of the Thunderbolts army? Maybe they were "drafted" one more time for this conflict? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Jan 2007 12:08 pm    
By Somebody

MACH-IV's armour and Blizzard's costume (where his power came from) were fried beyond repair in Tbolts #108 (and, yes, we were explicitly told they were wrecked beyond repair in TB109, with Fixer saying the only option for Abe would be to build an all-new harness for ~$14 million). MACH-IV and Fixer were then offered non-super government jobs (X-Files comparisons were used in a sequence that read awfully like Fabian was angling for a "Fixer and Abe" miniseries) which they took up, and Blizzard was Let Go with a blanket pardon for past misdemeanours.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jan 2007 02:26 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Mmm-kay. So we've got a problem. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jan 2007 06:01 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sean K. wrote: 
>>>
A few more for-the-record notes courtesy of Newsarama and Tom Brevoort. These pertain specifically to Civil War #6... 
<<<

Thanks for these notes, Sean. My mileage varies, with two months separating the Stamford incident and CW 6. A detailed chronological review is forthcoming, once CW is completed. 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Blizzard and MACH-IV are both in the lineup on Iron Man's side - and Blizzard's in his pre-New Tbolts #12 costume to boot - along with Fixer. The Tbolts/CW chronology hashed out in this thread just went completely out the window. 
<<<

Not necessarily. Any reason CW 6 can't go between IM4 14 and TB 106? 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Solo - sorting Cable/Deadpool #33-34 and Solo's appearances in Frontline and here is going to be fun. Can the order go C/D #33-34, Frontline #4, CW6, remembering that Cable/Deadpool #31 bridges over the big CW3-4 fight and that Solo's working **for** SHIELD in C/D and is anti-reg in FL & here? 
<<<

Or how about Solo in: 
CW:FL 4 
CW 6-7 
C&DP 33-34 
This order involves a gap between C&DP 32 and 33 and the notion that Solo goes to work for the government after he's broken out of 42.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 06 Jan 2007 07:21 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Blizzard and MACH-IV are both in the lineup on Iron Man's side - and Blizzard's in his pre-New Tbolts #12 costume to boot - along with Fixer. The Tbolts/CW chronology hashed out in this thread just went completely out the window. 
<<<

Not necessarily. Any reason CW 6 can't go between IM4 14 and TB 106? 
<<<

I'll need to get my Tbolts issues out and recheck. However, from the CW6 ending, it looks at first glance like placing after CW6 might well take a comic out of the Civil War timeframe altogether. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Solo - sorting Cable/Deadpool #33-34 and Solo's appearances in Frontline and here is going to be fun. Can the order go C/D #33-34, Frontline #4, CW6, remembering that Cable/Deadpool #31 bridges over the big CW3-4 fight and that Solo's working **for** SHIELD in C/D and is anti-reg in FL & here? 
<<<

Or how about Solo in: 
CW:FL 4 
CW 6-7 
C&DP 33-34 
This order involves a gap between C&DP 32 and 33 and the notion that Solo goes to work for the government after he's broken out of 42. 
<<<

Can't work - there's a "This takes place before Punisher: War Journal" note on C/D #34. And P:WJ #1 repeats the Punisher scenes from CW5

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jan 2007 09:12 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I'll need to get my Tbolts issues out and recheck. However, from the CW6 ending, it looks at first glance like placing after CW6 might well take a comic out of the Civil War timeframe altogether. 
<<<

That depends on how the storyline wraps up in CW 7. The showdown at the end of CW 6 seems to be a set-up for a grand finale, but we don't necessarily know that more CW scenes won't follow the big battle.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 07 Jan 2007 10:22 pm    
By Somebody

Ergo "At first glance..." and "...might well...". I know how to hedge my bets  

Logically, though, everything after The Big Fight should be epilogue setting up the new status quo in the same way, say, HoM8 (the retconned first couple of pages aside) wasn't set in the HoMverse but the altered status-quo MU. Whether that IS the case or not remains to be seen, of course.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jan 2007 11:47 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Well, Frontline #10-11 take place after the big battle in CW #6-7, at least -- the guys the new Thunderbolts are chasing all over town in FL #10 are the same guys (Daredevil, Typeface, etc.) who just got broken out of the 42 prison at the very end of CW #6. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jan 2007 02:22 am    
By Somebody

Didn't Jenkins say @ Newsarama that this is **during**/part of the CW6-7 fight, rather than aftermath?

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jan 2007 11:38 am    
By jephyork
Director

Well, since Daredevil and Typeface can't be in two places at once, I went out on a limb and assumed that they got sprung, fought Iron Man's forces in the 42 prison for a while, then got back to Earth and fought the Thunderbolts for a while. Makes sense, right? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 08 Jan 2007 11:50 am    
By ashram316

Most likely, the battle spills over back to NY. The Daredevil/Typeface sequence is probably going on at the same time that Cap and IM are duking it out. All speculation of course.

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Posted: 08 Jan 2007 06:48 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Well, since Daredevil and Typeface can't be in two places at once, I went out on a limb and assumed that they got sprung, fought Iron Man's forces in the 42 prison for a while, then got back to Earth and fought the Thunderbolts for a while. Makes sense, right? 
<<<

What ashram said - the Thunderbolts & Killerbolts are in 42 with Iron Man & co at the end of CW6 too. And there's an open portal to Ryker's Island (and possibly the Baxter Building) at the time.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jan 2007 10:24 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Here's some interesting chronology notes from Joe Quesada and Tom Brevoort over at the "New Joe Friday's" segment on Newsarama. Most of this is stuff we've already concluded, but I figured I'd share it just in case... 

Quote: 
>>>
Question from ireact : "While "Civil War" has been written well overall, there seem to be some troubling continuity gaffes. In the "Civil War" event, different comics depict the same events in contradictory ways. Sue either storms out of the Baxter Building in the FF title, but in CW, she leaves Reed a note after a final night of passion. Spider-Man is told Area 42 isn't temporary in AMAZING, then he's told it is temporary in CW. The Punisher walks in on Cap making a deal with two villains and shoots the bad guys in PWJ, but according to CW, the bad guys suddenly show up in the midst of a meeting and the Punisher opens fire. And then there's the inconsistently depicted Area 42, a dirt-floored hellhole according to Paul Jenkins' "Frontlines", yet a gleaming and polished facility with AMAZING. Mistakes are inevitable -- but what's going on when the writers are meant to be scripting the same scene and the individual depictions don't match? 
<<<


The answer: 

Quote: 
>>>
JQ: As with all things Civil War, ireact, Tom Brevoort likes to jump into the fray, so without further or due, the Rapping, T-Voort. 

Tom Brevoort: In most of these cases, these aren't continuity mistakes, but a necessary duplication of certain story points in different books so that each one can be read individually. And it's no different than working out how Captain America can be facing certain death in his own book, but hanging around with the Avengers in New Avengers seemingly at the same time - one story, one scene, one event happens before the other. 

We've covered the Sue sequence of events a few times already, but just to reiterate it: in Civil War #4, Sue is present for the battle in which Goliath gets killed. Then, in FF, she and Reed have a blow-out argument after she helps Wildstreak to escape and she storms off - and Ben says, "she's laving, huh?" Then, towards the end of Civil War #4, we read her final note to Reed and see her and Johnny leave the Baxter Building while Ben watches. 

The Punisher War Journal scene aligns pretty precisely with the scene in Civil War #6, with the additional sequences taking place in-between panels in Civil War #6. We've got a limited amount of space in the core book, but if you look at that scene, while the Punisher is walking with Spider-Man on the previous page, he's not in the scene when Diamondback brings the villains in. 

The dirt floors in Front Line had more to do with the fact that Steve hadn't drawn the prison yet in the main book, and so to some extent Ramon Bachs had to determine his own interpretation. As it turned out, the place was actually designed by Ron Garney in Amazing, because he needed it before Steve was going to be able to get to that issue, and so we then provided Steve with the appropriate reference. 

The only item on your list that's a genuine mistake is the turn-around on Iron Man's take on the prison being temporary or permanent between Amazing and Civil War, and that was simply a miscommunication between JMS and Mark. And even within that, from a story point of view I can rationalize Iron Man telling Spidey that the prison is a permanent measure in order to try to scare him back away from doing what he's thinking of doing.  
<<<

_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001! 
 
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Posted: 15 Jan 2007 03:41 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Tom Brevoort wrote: 
>>>
We've covered the Sue sequence of events a few times already, but just to reiterate it: in Civil War #4, Sue is present for the battle in which Goliath gets killed. Then, in FF, she and Reed have a blow-out argument after she helps Wildstreak to escape and she storms off - and Ben says, "she's laving, huh?" Then, towards the end of Civil War #4, we read her final note to Reed and see her and Johnny leave the Baxter Building while Ben watches.  
<<<

That still doesn't make much sense from either Sue's or Ben's standpoint. I think the scenario of Sue returning to the Baxter Building in FF 540 after leaving in CW 4 (perhaps to check in on the kids on the sly) works a lot better from a chronology standpoint. 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Can't work - there's a "This takes place before Punisher: War Journal" note on C/D #34. And P:WJ #1 repeats the Punisher scenes from CW5 
<<<

Okay, here's a new take on chronology involving Solo and Bridge: 

CW:FL 4 -- Solo is captured [and imprisoned] 
CW:FL 5 
CW:FL 6 -- contemporaneous with CW 3 
C&DP 31 -- contemporaneous with CW 4 
C&DP 32 
C&DP 33 -- Solo and Bridge recruited to Six Pack [Solo recruited from prison] 
C&DP 34 -- Six Pack defeated [Solo returned to prison after this] 
PWJ 1 -- Bridge given assignment to go after Castle -- contemporaneous with CW 5 
PWJ 2 -- Bridge follows up 
CW 6 -- Solo broken out of prison 

Given how CW:FL and C&DP weave into CW, Solo must have been doing the government's bidding as a member of Six Pack as part of an arrangement he made while he was incarcerated in the Negative Zone prison.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 15 Jan 2007 04:04 pm    
By Somebody

I think that's as good as we're going to get, and just about works if you squint - the embarrassment caused to the US by Cable's stunt is more than enough reason to send Solo back to jail (hell, you wonder how Bridge got away scot-free. At least Domino had the decency to defect ). Maybe he had the Killerbolts electro-shock-nanos in him to force him to help in the first place. 

As for the Tbolts general chronology, as an aside, I'm not even making guesses, let alone bets, until CW7 is out at this point. I wouldn't be surprised to see Smuggler, Joystick or Atlas turn up there to screw everything up once and for all.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jan 2007 03:44 am    
By simmo

So, rather than a scene by scene guide, is there a rough issue by issue guide? Mainly because pretty soon I'll want to go back and read the lot in one hit, but I haven't got the staying power to go back and read select pages from select books. 

Cheers.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jan 2007 04:42 am    
By Somebody

If you just need a rough issue-by-issue guide, then just follow the publication order - it's mostly the smaller things, like cameos that are causing ordering problems, and they're holding back issues to make sure things don't get too out of sync.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2007 07:49 am    
By Somebody

Following on from something from p14 & 15 of this thread, that we let drop because stuff was still ongoing... 

Cable/DP #36 doesn't feature Cable (at all), and includes a two-week jump. 

Given that he was wearing his Cone of Silence suit in C/D #25-35 + CW, and the fact that Fabian's inserting a fairly deliberate gap in here to my eyes to let Supernovas happen, can we now say X (188+189+) 190-193 occur after C/D #35, and that Supernovas similarly occurs after Iceman's apparances in Civil War:X-Men?

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2007 09:05 am    
By ashram316

Sounds good to me. After re-evaluating the issues, it looks like a post CW placement for the current X-titles would be for the best. The way that Xavier speaks at the beginning of UX 475 makes it appear as though some time has passed since X: DG, and I would think it best to attempt to place non-CW titles either before or after CW wherever possible.

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Posted: 20 Jan 2007 05:13 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Um...I'm having some difficulty following the posts. Can someone provide a concise summary of the reasons Supernovas and X 188 on must go after CW? 

We have the argument of not wanting to interrupt Cable's costume from C&DP 25-35 for his appearances in X 190-193. 

We have the argument of Iceman's being part of Rogue's departing team in UX 493, with the assumption that he can't return to be in CW:X after that. 

Any others? 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Cable/DP #36 doesn't feature Cable (at all), and includes a two-week jump. 
<<<

Actually, C&DP 36 involves two two-week jumps within the issue and an indefinite amount of time from C&DP 35.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Jan 2007 06:19 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Isn't Prof. X one of the telepaths seen helping Overmind keep the world calm in TB #106-108? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 20 Jan 2007 09:13 pm    
By Col_Fury

Didn't Prof. X lose his telepathy after M Day?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Posted: 20 Jan 2007 09:39 pm    
By Somebody

I'm at least half-asleep here - I'll get back to Paul B later today or tomorrow. 

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Isn't Prof. X one of the telepaths seen helping Overmind keep the world calm in TB #106-108?  
<<<

Wasn't that Gamesmaster (not to be confused with Grandmaster). I seem to recall him being bald, omnipaths were mentioned, and he's a Fabian creation. IIRC. 


Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Didn't Prof. X lose his telepathy after M Day? 
<<<

Yes.

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Posted: 20 Jan 2007 11:14 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Didn't Prof. X lose his telepathy after M Day? 
<<<

Yeah, but Cable's in that shot too, and all he has these days for "telepathy" is some kind of nebulous access to the internet -- right? I wasn't saying it made sense, just that I thought it was Prof. X. 

But you're right, it could also be the Gamesmaster. In reality he was young, and had hair and glasses -- but yeah, his "avatar" was an older bald guy. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Posted: 21 Jan 2007 05:23 pm    Post subject: obscure X-character question
By zeus

The Chronology List shows Jamil showing up in X-Men #60&61, as well as Wolverine #94&99 (and X-Men Unlimited, but I don't have that one, so I can't comment on it). 

In X-Men #61, it's stated pretty definitively that Jamil never existed. He was a figment of Karima's imagination, and a result of her mutant powers. 

Does this mean that she based "her" Jamil on the real one from Wolverine, or that her imagination developed a free will, and went to work for Genesis? How does this work?

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jan 2007 08:17 pm    
By SeanCurtin

IIRC: She unconsciously created Jamil some time prior to XU 7, but she didn't have any control over him, so he was able work for Genesis and Candra independently of her. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Posted: 11 Dec 2006 11:54 am    Post subject: Stan Lee Meets...
By SKleefeld
Director

I thought I'd start a thread here to cover ALL of the "Stan Lee Meets..." comics that have come out recently. All individual issue summaries, for those who might not have read the books, are in the Issue Analysis section of the boards here. 

To summarize, we have a few questions on the table: 

1) Are the Stan-Lee-written stories canon? 

2) Are the back-up stories canon? 

3) Do we treat either the Stan-Lee-written or the back-up stories as individual pieces, or do them come under an all-or-nothing heading? That is, for example, if the backups in ...Silver Surfer, ...Spider-Man, and ...Dr. Doom are canon, does that automatically make ...Thing and ...Dr. Strange canon? 

I'll start with a few of my observations... 

Rule #1 of the MCP: We consider a book canon unless it's either expressly stated by Marvel as out of continuity, or it simply cannot be reconciled with existing continuity. 

While all of the new stories in these books are silly and clearly written in a tongue-in-cheek fashion, that alone does not warrant exclusion from canoncity. 

I don't see anything in the Stan-Lee-written stories that expressly contradicts continuity. At no point does Stan refer to himself as the creator of these characters, nor do the characters recognize Stan as their (co-)creator. Further, none of the characters recount parts of their history that we can, with certainty, define as wrong. In the Dr. Strange story, for example, we do get several flashbacks, but we're never told WHICH battle with Dormammu we're seeing, or even if we've ever seen that particular battle before. 

There's also something of an internal continuity within the Stan-Lee-written stories... although the publication order has cofused that somewhat. In ...Spider-Man, ...Dr. Doom, and ...Silver Surfer, Stan is at home being leisurely while his wife is out of town. Having been teleported out his home twice in a relatively short amount of time, he then takes a trip to NYC (...Thing) and visits an old friend (...Dr. Strange). 

Although the title characters tend to act vaguely out of character, again, they don't say or do anything that directly contradicts (to my knowledge) existing continuity. I know I've seen greater mis-characterizations that are to be taken as canon. 

The backups are somewhat problematic by comparison. In ...Dr. Doom, we get a recap of the original FF 40 and learn that, shortly after the events of that story, Stan Lee had flown out to Latveria to impersonate Boris. And the subterfuge went undetected by Doom. In ...Dr. Strange, a slew of characters -- many of which are dead -- are seen outside Stan's home, although most of them don't speak or move. In ...Thing, there's a suggestion that Stan had control over some of the 1940s heroes, but that's at least implied within the context of a story to be a dream sequence. ...Silver Surfer suggests that Stan has some detailed knowledge of Paul Jenkins' future as a comic book writer and ...Spider-Man gives Stan access to some sort of multi-dimensional portal. 

Cumulatively, this would suggest that the backups are NOT canon. But we do have canon evidence of Stan being party to cosmic entities before (Silver Surfer -1 springs to mind) and it's not outside the realm of possibilities that 616-Stan has picked up more than a few things in striking comic book deals with so many heroes. 

That said, I think the ...Dr. Strange backup -- because of all the dead people shown wandering around not being dead -- is out of continuity. The question then becomes: is that, coupled with the admittedly strained plot devices in the other stories, sufficient evidence to throw out the rest of the backups?

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Dec 2006 01:24 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
is that, coupled with the admittedly strained plot devices in the other stories, sufficient evidence to throw out the rest of the backups? 
<<<

Oh please yes. Main stories too. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2006 02:33 pm    
By rhod

My opinion is that, since the main stories all fit, we should consider these canon. The back-ups should be taken on a case-by-case basis.
_________________
"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Dec 2006 07:41 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
My opinion is that, since the main stories all fit, we should consider these canon. The back-ups should be taken on a case-by-case basis. 
<<<


That sounds reasonable to me. As gosh-darned silly as those main stories are, we haven't been presented with evidence to suggest that they don't pass the listmus test of canonicity. And given the fact that those stories are tied together, it's seems to be an all-or-nothing proposition. 

Not so with the back-ups. They appear to be independent of one another and so should be evaluated independently. The Doc Strange story is shown to refute established canon, so it's out. 

As for the other back-ups, how strained does a plot line need to be to throw the story out of continuity? If nothing outright contradicts established continuity, where do you draw that line? Jeph would argue that the plots of the main stories are strained enough that the line (let's call it "the shark jump line") was crossed. Sean's shark jump line is drawn in a different spot, with the backup stories being borderline.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 12 Dec 2006 07:43 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Sorry, I'm still not buying that the main stories "fit". 

Dr. Strange, for example, being portrayed as so money-hungry that he sells souvenirs in his lobby. Or Spider-Man being inspired to fight crime by the news that he's the lynchpin of an entertainment empire. Or Galactus asking Stan to try to make the Surfer stop pontificating. 

To me, these aren't "goofy" -- they're flat-out satire. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Dec 2006 09:45 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

I don't think anyone is doubting that these are, at best, strained characterizations. But isn't the Reed Richards we're seeing in "Civil War" just as strained, if not moreso? Here's a guy who went up against a Senate subcommittee already (during "Acts of Vengeance") and expressly stated in no uncertain terms that he was decidedly against registration. He even went so far as to fudge his own science to drive his point home. And we're now told that he fully supports registration? To the point where he's willing to create a cyborg/clone of a god (and, I might add, a friend who saved his son's life from his greatest enemy at the end of "Heroes Reborn") and allow it the capacity to kill? To the point where he actively estranges his wife and his best friend? 

If we're going to say the Stan Lee stories are non-canon just because the characterizations are off, then I'd have to argue that all of the "Civil War" stories get thrown out the window as well. 

Although that actually isn't a half-bad idea!  


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
To me, these aren't "goofy" -- they're flat-out satire. 
<<<

Steve Gerber's Howard the Duck wasn't satire? John Byrne's She-Hulk wasn't satire? We have an in-continuity story in which She-Hulk escapes a non-escapable trap by ripping the corner of the comic book page, running across an ad, and jumping back into the story after the scene has changed... and you're saying that a little poor characterization is enough to chuck these? 

Honestly, I'm not all that keen on ensuring that these are the canon but, Jeph, you're not proving their lack of canonocity by just saying they have a different tone than most Marvel comics, or that you don't buy into the characterizations. We hold every other comic to a higher burden of proof, and I don't think these should be any different. In all seriousness, please find for me that Dr. Strange never leased his property. Please find for me that Stan was not the first person to write about Galactus. Please find that Dr. Doom doesn't know what "megilla" means. Please find for me Ralph Macchio saying, "No, of course those aren't in continuity!" Give us some bona fide proof to work with here!

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Posted: 13 Dec 2006 11:14 am    
By cweed4

I thought it was pretty clear that these stories were not intended to be considered canon. Check out the interview from Newsarama regarding these books. (http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/StanLee/StanMeets.html) 

Tom Brevoort answers this very question regarding the main story- 
Wow, I feel like I'm on the Internet or something, the editor astutely responded. I think you're giving these stories a bit too much thought in terms of trying to figure out how they fit into the overall superstructure of the Marvel Universe. 
These tales are pretty much Stan having fun, bouncing off of the characters he created, and having them bounce off of him. So Spidey will seek out Stan for advice about the sorry state of his personal life, Doctor Doom will call Stan on the carpet for slandering him in the books all these years, and Galactus will summon Stan to try to put a sock in the depressing lamentations of the Silver Surfer. 

and the back-up stories- 
The back-ups will cover a very broad spectrum, and won't necessarily take place in the recognized Marvel Universe at all, explained Brevoort, asked to describe the back-ups. Some of them won't even have any superheroes at all to speak of. 

That sounds pretty close to being "expressly stated by Marvel as out of continuity".

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Posted: 13 Dec 2006 12:50 pm    
By jephyork
Director

To be honest, Sean, I don't really have the energy. If incorporating these silly things meant bending previously-existing chronologies into a pretzel, maybe I'd put up more of a fight. But as it is, they don't feature any characters I particularly care about and they don't affect the chronology of any book I care about. So, whatever. In my mind, they're clearly intended to be satire and that's as far as it needs to go. 

Does someone want to shoot Tom Brevoort an e-mail? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Dec 2006 06:13 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It's always struck me as bizarre that people want to incorporate these sorts of stories into continuity. I honestly don't see the logic of a version of the Marvel Universe where continuity applies in such minute detail as to render something like the MCP meaningful, and yet where continuity is so wild and elastic to comfortably accommodate stories like these.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 25 Jan 2007 12:28 am    
By Col_Fury

I've finally found time to read these books! 
 
Tom Brevoort wrote: 
>>>
I think you're giving these stories a bit too much thought in terms of trying to figure out how they fit into the overall superstructure of the Marvel Universe. These tales are pretty much Stan having fun, bouncing off of the characters he created, and having them bounce off of him.  
<<<

I think that bit sums it up. 

Fun series, though. I really liked it.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Thread 23

Posted: 06 Jul 2004 01:45 pm    Post subject: Martians in the MU
By DonCampbell

Last year, it was suggested that the entries for all Killraven and Guardians of the Galaxy characters should be placed in one combined page since, after all, they came from the same timeline. I voiced my objection to this plan since, after all, the Killraven characters from AMAZING ADVENTURES and the Guardians of the Galaxy characters clearly existed in different timelines. After a long series of dueling postings, the matter was left unresolved since neither StAkAr Karnak nor I was able to convince the other that we were right. Anyway, I decided to compose a posting that would contain all the relevant information so that interested parties could make up their own minds and voice their opinions. After months of (VERY sporadic) effort), heres the result: Martians in the MU. 

PART A: Killraven and his world 

1) Killraven is a character who first appeared in the War of the World series that ran in AMAZING ADVENTURES (vol. 2) #18-39 (May, 1973  November, 1976). Based on concepts created in the novel by H.G. Wells, the series was set in the early 21st century of an Earth which had been conquered by invaders from Mars. Killraven is the hero of the series, an escaped gladiator turned freedom fighter. In the first issue, set in 2018, Killraven battles his way into an enemy stronghold where he discovers records from the past that reveal that the Martian conquest of Earth in the year 2001 was not Earths first contact with the aliens. As in the novel, the Martians had invaded Earth in 1901, easily crushing all human resistance, but their seemingly-unstoppable attempt to conquer the planet was thwarted when their lack of immunity to diseases carried by Earths microorganisms killed them all. This series is a sequel to the novel and is based on the premise that the Martians didnt just give up their planned conquest of Earth because their first invasion failed. Instead, the Martians devoted the next hundred years to developing a way to immunize themselves against Earths diseases before they attacked again. This time, their invasion was successful and Earth was conquered. 

One thing about this series about which I remain uncertain is whether it was meant to be set in an alternate future of Marvel-Earth. I recently read 13 of the 22 issues in the series and it seems like Killravens Earth is just an Earth on which the events of the War of the Worlds novel really took place. So far I have seen nothing about Killravens Earth which ties it to the mainstream Marvel-Earth. However, one of the 9 issues I havent read yet is AMAZING ADVENTURES (vol. 2) #38 (September, 1976) which has a cover showing Killraven being attacked by demonic versions of eight Marvel heroes and the caption, Deaths Dark Dreamer! Since Ive never read that issue, I can only speculate about its story. The cover's reference to dreamer combined with the distorted images of the super-heroes suggests that those characters appear within a dream or hallucination experienced by Killraven. If thats true, then the relevant question is where did those dream-images come from? Are they from the souls of the dead heroes or were they inspired by KRs memories? And if they did come from KR's memory, were those memories of newspaper reports about real-life heroes or of comic books about fictional heroes? I have absolutely no idea. Can somebody fill me in? 


2) DEFENDERS #26 (August, 1975) featured the first appearance of Killraven outside of AMAZING ADVENTURES. Major Astro, a member of the Guardians of the Galaxy from an alternate 31st century Earth, tells the Defenders some of the history of his timeline. After describing how "his planet" was invaded and conquered by Martians in 2001, he then states: There are no reliable histories of the period of occupation. Legend has it that a band of Freemen, led by a charismatic figure known as Killraven began the revolt against the invaders. All we can say for certain is that by 2075, the aliens had abandoned our world. We may never know exactly when or why. The first panel on page 12 shows an image of these Freemen and they look like Killraven, MShulla, Carmilla Frost, Old Skull and Grok. However, since so little information is provided about them, its impossible to determine whether they are the exact same characters from AA2 or just other-dimensional counterparts to those AA2 characters. 


3) MARVEL TEAM-UP #45 (May, 1976) featured Spider-Man and Killraven in Future-Shock! When Spider-Man tries to use Dooms time platform to return to his own present (1975) from the year 1692, an electrical storm derails the time platform and causes it to overshoot Spider-Mans own time and take him to New York in the year 2019. There he meets Killraven and they fight together to defeat three Martian tripods. This story is considered part of Killravens chronology because a reference to Volcano Ash having left to find her sister places the story after AMAZING ADVENTURES #31 (April, 2019). 

As far as I can tell, there is nothing that firmly establishes that Killravens 2019 Earth is a possible future of Spider-Mans 1975 Marvel Earth. Even Killraven himself says, I mourn a lost past, you a shattered future, neither of us really knowing if one relates to the other. On the one hand, KR doesnt seem to know about Marvel-Earths super-heroes (but that could just be due to the Martian effort to eradicate mankinds knowledge of their history). On the other hand, Spider-Man doesnt react when KR mentions that it has been Just eighteen years since the second Martian invasion of Earth. Unlike the first -- this one was a success. Maybe he didnt react because he already knew about the failed 1901 Martian invasion? Or maybe he was just too overwhelmed by what KR had been telling him to ask, Hey, what FIRST invasion are you talking about? Either way, theres nothing conclusive. 


4) The letters page of MARVEL TEAM-UP #49 (September, 1976) included a letter from one Mark Gruenwald of Oshkosh, Wisconsin. Heres what he thought of MTU #45: 

Considering that Spider-Man meets Killraven is a premise that most writers wouldnt touch with a ten-foot pencil, MTU #45 came off pretty well. However, I feel compelled to try to clarify a possible misconception one might get from reading #45s Future Shock. Namely: Spider-Mans concern that Nothing we do matters because in thirty years time the Martians are gonna grind it all into paste. 

It has already been established that no future is the only possible course of reality a world will take (notably in DEFENDERS #26), but Spider-Man has even less cause for concern. Killravens world of 2019 couldnt possibly be in Spider-Mans future, because Marvel-Earth is NOT in Killravens past. What warrants this conclusion? Simply this: it is highly improbable that in 1900 on Marvel-Earth the Martians attacked as in H.G. Wells original book. Had they, it seems improbable that the reality of Marvel-Earth of the 30s (Doc Savage), 40s (Invaders) and 60s (Fantastic Four) would have turned out as depicted in the wake of the Martian aftermath. It also seems improbable that the inception of the mass super-hero population of the 70s wouldnt have found some way to stem a possible Martian invasion before it could occur. Although we do not know for certain that all Marvels heroes will be dead or retired by the time of the Martian invasion of 2001, one imagines that some would still answer the clarion call to save Earth  if indeed the War of the Worlds were actually one of Earths futures. We all know that Dooms time platform can travel to alternate realities (as witnessed in FANTASTIC FOUR #152), so Spidey could have easily gone to the future of another Earth besides his own. Remember that the future is wide open, and theres no reason to tie all future down to Marvel-Earth. I guess it cant be said any better than as expressed in your story, Bill: There are many pasts, thinks Killraven, many presents...and the future, for all men, is different. 

This letter does not PROVE anything. Since Mark Gruenwald wrote this letter before he began working for Marvel, it is nothing more than the opinion of a fan and thats not binding. I included it simply to show I am not alone in my belief that, just because Marvel Comics published Killravens adventures, Killravens Earth is NOT NECESSARILY an alternate future of the mainstream Marvel-Earth. 


5) MARVEL GRAPHIC NOVEL No. 7: KILLRAVEN, WARRIOR OF THE WORLDS Last Dreams Broken was published in 1983. The GN continued the storyline from AA2 and wrapped up the plotline about the search for Killravens brother that was left unfinished when AA2 was cancelled. It was also revealed that Keeper Whitman had secretly made Killraven a repository of human history, of Earths human past, and the story displayed many images from human history. However, none of the images were of super-beings. This fact MAY indicate that the Killraven series was NOT set on Marvel-Earth. 


6) OFFICIAL HANDBOOK OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE (vol. 3) #4 (October, 1989) included a KILLRAVEN entry by writer/researcher Peter Sanderson. Here are two excerpts that I find interesting: 
a) History: Killraven is the native of an alternate Earth in which sentient octopus-like aliens known as Martians invaded the United Kingdom in 1901. Okay, I read this excerpt as saying that Killraven is from an alternate Earth which diverged from the mainstream Earth in 1901 when sentient octopus-like aliens known as Martians invaded the United Kingdom. I also think that its significant that the entry states that Killraven is a native of an alternate Earth when it could just as easily have stated that he was a native of an alternate future (of the mainstream) Earth. Others disagree. 

b) Note: According to one account, the original Deathlok and the Guardians of the Galaxy are also native to the alternate Earth dimension in which Killraven exists. The account in question is DEFENDERS #26 (which reveals that a war fought by armies of cyborgs took place but doesnt specifically mention Deathlok). At the time that this note was written, a storyline in CAPTAIN AMERICA had established that all the heroes on Deathloks Earth/timeline had vanished in 1983 when they were secretly killed by Roxxon Oils Nth Project. This would explain why none of Marvels heroes had fought back against the Martian invaders in 2001. Unfortunately, when GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY began a few years later, it was soon established that some of Marvels familiar heroes had died fighting against the Martians...which meant they had survived until 2001...which means that the original Deathlok and the Guardians of the Galaxy are NOT from the same alternate Earth dimension...so maybe Killraven isnt either? 


7) AVENGERS FOREVER #4 (March, 1999) introduced another Killraven fighting against Martian invaders. This Killraven exists in a timeline which diverged from the mainstream timeline sometime after AVENGERS (vol. 3) #12. This issue contains the first in-story reference to the possibility that the Martians may not be native to Mars. Also, the list of Sources on the inside back cover states that Killraven and the Martian invaders, including the cyborg Skar, the basis for the Skorpsmen, were first seen in a divergent future depicted in Amazing Adventures #18-39. 


8) AVENGERS FOREVER #10 (October, 1999) confirmed that the Martians fought by the various Killravens are not native to Mars (Immortus: I visited the staging base of a militant race that had reached Mars and with a word in the right ear, turned their attention to Earth...) The list of Sources at the end of AVENGERS FOREVER #12 (February, 2000) states that Immortuss visit to the Martians occurred prior to Amazing Adventures (vol. 2) #18. 


9) KILLRAVEN #1 (February, 2001) presented Killraven: 2020 by Joseph Michael Lisner. The story, set a few months after the Graphic Novel, tells how Killraven stumbled across an underground chamber containing hibernation tubes. Since all but one of the tubes had been damaged, Killraven rescued the lone survivor, a girl named Alice who, with her friends, entered the tubes in 1976 as a form of political protest. When Killraven told her that the Martians returned to conquer the Earth in 2001 after an earlier invasion failed due to Earths germs, Alice refused to believe him, saying, What?! Thats War of the Worlds by H.G. Wells. Cmon, if youre gonna pull my leg, try to be a little more original than that! That whole routine may have worked for Orson Welles, but--. Killraven then told her that After they invaded in 1901, mankind chose to fictionalize the whole encounter because the truth was just too terrible to bear. 

I have two problems with this theory. First, I find the idea that any government would choose to cover-up an alien invasion in which thousands (or was it millions?) of people were killed is ridiculous. Surely they would be smart enough to realize the need to prepare the world for the possibility that these deadly aliens might be planning a second invasion and that knowledge of the first invasion would be needed to motivate their people to prepare for it? Also, on a strictly practical level, I just don't see how such a large death toll could be explained away, especially since the deaths took place all over England. And even if the British government did decide to cover up the invasion, what about all the other countries who were aware of the invasion? Would France go along with a British cover-up? 

Second, if The War of the Worlds was written in order to fictionalize the invasion of 1901, how could it have been published in 1897, four years BEFORE the actual Martian invasion took place? 



PART B: References to the Martian invasion(s) in GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY stories 

In order to be as accurate as possible, I tried to be very thorough. To that end, I carefully read through the GotG issues of MARVEL PRESENTS and all GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY issues and annuals and all the associated letters pages. The references to the Martian invasion(s) can be sorted into three groups: 

1) Most of the stories that mention the invasion by the Martians in 2001 seem to consider it a unique event. The following nine histories/recaps only refer to the Martian invasion and make no mention of an earlier invasion that failed: 
DEFENDERS #26 (August, 1975), MARVEL PRESENTS #4 (March, 1976), GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY #1 (June, 1990), GOTG #2 (July, 1990), GOTG #50/2 (July, 1994), GOTG #54 (Nov, 1994), GOTG Annual #4/2 (1994), GOTG #61/1 (June, 1995), and GALACTIC GUARDIANS #1 (July, 1994). 

2) Two of the stories are somewhat ambiguous. First, the letters page of MARVEL PRESENTS #3 (February, 1976) is actually a text page describing the solar system in the year 3015 A.D. Heres the excerpt which deals with Mars: Neither Venus nor Mars was ever colonized...Mars, as terrans learned to their sorrow back in 2001, was already inhabited. (Check out any issue of KILLRAVEN if you doubt us.) I get a mixed message from this excerpt. While the fact that it specifically mentions 2001 as the time when humans learned that Mars was inhabited implies that the invasion of 1901 did NOT take place in the GotG timeline, the suggestion to check out KILLRAVEN seems to indicate that the events from that series DID happen...which would include the 1901 invasion. Its six of one, half a dozen of another. 

Second, an editorial response in the letters page of GotG #5 (Oct, 1990) states: Our time-line encompasses the War of the Worlds, as viewed in the Killraven series in AMAZING ADVENTURES. While this statement may mean that the events depicted in AA occurred within the GotG timeline, it could also be taken to mean that the same (War of the Worlds) events took place in both of the separate timelines. 

3) In all, there are only three GotG stories which state that there were two different Martian invasions of Earth. 
a) GOTG Annual #3 (1993)  While recounting the history of the Book of Kells, Mainframe states: However, there came a time when Mars launched its second invasion of Earth. The planet was overrun and the Book of Kells was presumed lost. 
b) GOTG #55 (Dec, 1994)  The Guardians find Ripjaks personal log program and translate it into English: 
My status as the preeminent Martian scientist rapidly increased when I was chosen to engineer the final pillage hundreds of years after our great conquest. Earths remaining natural resources were depleted and the long occupation ended with a glorious homecoming. The High Overlord elevated me to a cabinet chair. But soon afterwards, incurable plague began rampaging across Mars. The most sophisticated exo-suits were useless. It poisoned the inner-life fluid network. Our own blood became acitoxic and ate away at us from within! Panic gripped the populace. Some speculated it was Earth-borne bacteria as in the failed first invasion, but my tests proved otherwise. 
c) GOTG #62/2 (July, 1995)  As the Martian flagship travels from Mars to Earth on June 29, 2001 the High Overlord of the Martian strike fleet proclaims: Generations of planning the re-invasion of Earth shall not be undone! 

I think its significant that all three of these stories were written by the same person, Michael Gallagher, and that some of his GOTG stories are inconsistent with earlier stories. A good example of this can be found in Ripjaks log program which seems to state that his races long occupation of Earth lasted for hundreds of years. This is inconsistent with previous stories, notably DEFENDERS #26, which established that the Martians had abandoned Earth by 2075. If Gallagher could make a mistake like that, then his references to an earlier invasion may be equally wrong. 



PART C: Mars in the mainstream MU 

Here are the stories I could find in which beings from the mainstream Marvel-Earth interact with Mars or Martians. 

1) MARVEL TEAM-UP #45 (May, 1976)  Spider-Man visits the alternate future timeline of Killraven and helps him battle some of the Martians who have conquered that future Earth. 

2) QUASAR #12 (July, 1990)  Quasar flies the two Blood Brothers to Mars, challenges them to a fight, takes a beating from them and then leaves them there. 

3) STARBLAST #2-3 (February-March, 1994) and QUASAR #55-56 (February-March, 1994)  Skar, a character who first appeared as a hunter for the Martians in AMAZING ADVENTURES, is shown to be a member of the Starblasters in the mainstream universe. I have NO idea what the significance of this is. 

4) 2099: WORLD OF TOMORROW #1 (September, 1986)  Green-skinned semi-humanoids are shown to be living on Mars in the year 2099. In WOT #2 it is revealed that the Ares colonists refer to them as Takers. In WOT #5 (January, 1997) it is revealed that the Takers are native to Mars and that the few remaining members of their race have been in suspended animation for over ten thousand years (i.e. since before 7100 BC), ever since the surface of Mars was devastated by the Phalanx whose attempted conquest of Mars had been thwarted by the Takers. 

5) AVENGERS FOREVER #4 (March, 1999)  While investigating a temporal anomaly created by Immortus, Captain America and Giant-Man find themselves in New York City in the first half of the twenty-first century, helping the Avengers of the time (including Killraven) in Earths last battle against the Martians. The Sources list confirms that this is the same alien species that was first seen in a divergent future depicted in Amazing Adventures #18-39. In AVENGERS FOREVER #10 (October, 1999), it is established that the Martians are actually a militant race that had reached Mars. I think its significant that, unlike when the original Killraven met Spider-Man in MTU #45, none of this futures Avengers mention that the Martians had invaded Earth before. 

6) MARVEL: THE LOST GENERATION #12 (March, 2000)  The possibility that Earths governments could have covered up a Martian invasion in 1901 is supported by the revelation that, in the mainstream timeline, the worlds governments DID cover up evidence of a space battle near the Moon between an advance squadron of Skrull battle cruisers and the lost generation of Earths superhumans. However, it should be noted that no actual invasion of Earth occurred at this time, just an eruption in the heavens, so it would have been a lot easier to cover up. 

7) MARVEL: THE LOST GENERATION #11 (April, 2000)  Several years before the FF formed, Reed Richards was a doctoral student at State University in upstate New York when he captured a Skrull spy and turned him over to the local police. The police transferred the alien to the feds who turned him over to the Carmody Institute for study. When Rapunzel stated that the feds brought (Carmody) some Martian to study, Carmody replied, There are no Martians. Is that something that Carmody knows or is it just what he believes? 

8) X-FORCE #102 (May, 2000)  While Pete Wisdom is discussing British Intel's primary dissection lab with Alistaire Stuart, he states: They dissected Martians there in 1899, kicking off a century of cutting up aliens for fun and profit." Thanks to Jeph! for this tidbit. 

9) SILVER SURFER (vol. 4) #7 (May, 2004)  In Revelation Part I the Silver Surfer recounts this (NEW) history of the solar system: Over a hundred million years ago, advanced civilizations dwelled within this solar system, on the planet now called Mars and on her sister planet, Tiamat. For reasons long forgotten, the two worlds went to war. Mars was left a desolate wasteland. None of its inhabitants survived. Tiamat was annihilated. These asteroids are all that remain of it. From a distant star came the Annunaki, mourning the loss of these beloved worlds. They were the ones who had seeded Mars and Tiamat with intelligent life. They mourned for eons. In time, the neighboring Earth suffered a more natural form of destruction. For some species, it was an End. 

Two things of note. First, these Martians look like Caucasian humans with pointed ears. Second, the Surfer also reveals that the Annunaki had created a planet-sized machine named Marduk which drowned the warring kingdoms of an earlier civilization on Earth when they waged endless war on each other. This seems to be a new version of the Great Cataclysm that destroyed Atlantis and Lemuria. 


PART D: Conclusions and speculation 

1) Killraven: In all the Killraven stories Ive read, Ive never found anything that definitely connects his world with the mainstream Marvel timeline. In fact, I dont recall ever reading any Killraven story in which there was any mention of super-powered beings having existed in that timelines pre-invasion past. Obviously, if super-heroes never existed in Killravens timeline, then Mark Gruenwalds belief that Killravens world of 2019 couldnt possibly be a future of Marvel-Earth would be correct. This would also confirm my belief that the Killraven who existed in the GotG timeline must be a different person than the Killraven from AA2. As far as I know, the only Killraven story that might prove that Marvel super-heroes existed on his Earth is the story in AA2 #38 but since Ive never read that story I cant properly evaluate it. So, to anybody out there who has read that issue, please let me know what it reveals about KRs world. 

Anyway, even if Marvels super-heroes DID exist in the pre-invasion past of Killravens timeline, theres still nothing to show exactly when that timeline and the mainstream timeline diverged. The fact that some characters who first appeared in those AA2 stories have since shown up in the mainstream timeline (Skar in Starblast) or in an alternate future of the mainstream timeline (Killraven and the Martians in Avengers Forever) is not sufficient evidence to state that the timelines must have diverged only recently (i.e. after the failed first Martian invasion of 1901). Since alternate timelines are often very similar, dimensional counterparts of those characters could exist in both timelines even if they diverged before 1901 or even earlier. 


2) Guardians of the Galaxy: While there is no doubt that a rebel leader named Killraven once fought against the Martians in the 21st century of the GotG timeline, I still dont think that theres anything that proves that ALL the history revealed in the AA2 series must have taken place in the GotG timeline or, by extension, in the common past of the mainstream/GotG timeline. I still reject the idea that a failed Martian invasion (as depicted in AA2) is part of the secret history of the mainstream timeline. Since the only evidence of such an invasion comes from stories written by someone whose knowledge of the established GotG history can be shown to be somewhat lacking in accuracy, I am quite comfortable with the idea of explaining away those few mentions of an earlier invasion as actually referring to something far less than what was depicted in AA2. 


3) Mainstream Mars: Taking into account my aversion to the idea that a large-scale invasion from Mars took place in 1901, here is what I believe to be the history of Mars in the mainstream Marvel Universe. Be advised that I have used a fair amount of speculation in trying to fit the pieces together to form a timeline. 

4.6 Billion years ago  The star Sol came into being when it coalesced from cosmic gases and dust. Later, ten planets were formed out of the leftover material. Outward from the Sun, the ten planets were Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Tiamat, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. Three of the planets (Earth, Mars and Tiamat) became capable of supporting life and over the course of billions of years life developed and evolved on all three planets. 

over 100 million years ago  Intelligent life had evolved on both Mars and Tiamat but not yet on Earth. The native races of both Mars and Tiamat had created advanced civilizations capable of interplanetary space flight. Unfortunately, the two worlds went to war with each other and both sides are wiped out. Tiamat was destroyed and its debris became the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. Mars remained intact but its surface became a desolate, lifeless wasteland. 

65 million years ago  A mass extinction occurred on Earth which wiped out the dinosaurs. 

(date unknown)  Traveling from an unknown homeworld, a group of green-skinned semi-humanoids (possibly named the Sheenar) arrived in the solar system looking for a new home. For some reason, instead of colonizing Earth, the aliens decided to terraform Mars and settle there. Over time, these aliens spread out over the surface of Mars and became a new race of Martians. 

(dates unknown)  For centuries, these new Martians lived in peaceful isolation but from time to time they had to fight off invasion attempts by various alien races. The Kree, the Skrulls and the ShiAr were (allegedly) some of those alien invaders. 

over 10,000 years ago  The Phalanx attempted to invade Mars but were repelled by the Martians. Failing to assimilate Mars, the Phalanx instead rendered the surface uninhabitable, wiping out all of the Martians except for some who were protected in underground facilities. Since Mars was no longer capable of supporting life, some of the survivors attempted to relocate to Earth but their spaceship was sabotaged and they crashed in the Savage Land. Back on Mars, the last 200 survivors began to subject themselves to extended periods of suspended animation but as the millennia passed they began to die off anyway (Note: In one alternate future, all but seven of them had died by the year 2099). 

in the 19th Century  Members of a militant race of octopus-like aliens reached Mars and established a staging base there, presumably in preparation for an invasion of Earth. Either they did not detect the presence of the underground sleepers or they did detect them but decided to leave them alone. 

1897  (as in the real world) The War of the Worlds by Herbert George Wells was serialized in print in the pages of Pearsons Magazine from April to December. 

1898  (as in the real world) The War of the Worlds was first published in the form of a novel (scientific romance). 

1899  In preparation for a full-scale invasion, the Martians launched a reconnaissance mission, presumably to study Earths defensive capabilities. I believe it was at this point that Killravens timeline diverged from the mainstream timeline. In Killravens timeline, the recon mission returned to Mars and reported that Earth was essentially defenseless against their advanced technology. Based on this report, the "Martians" began preparing for a full-scale invasion of Earth that would take place two Earth years (one Martian year) later. However, in the mainstream timeline, the recon mission was not as successful. Maybe some random event occurred which caused their ship to crash in the United Kingdom. The crash breached the ship's hull, allowing Earth's atmosphere to enter and infect the crew, but they survived long enough to transmit a warning to their command base on Mars. Their bodies were then found by British Intel and a primary dissection lab on the British coast was set up to perform the autopsies. Back on Mars, the "Martians" were confronted with the unexpected deaths of their recon mission due to something which they had totally failed to consider and they decided to postpone any invasion plans until such time as they could develop immunity to Earth diseases. Thus, in the mainstream timeline, there was NO INVASION in 1901. However, since the recon mission died while scouting for a planned invasion, some "Martians" could have considered the 1899 recon mission as "the first failed invasion" of Earth (as mentioned by Ripjak in GOTG #55). 

1901  In the mainstream timeline, the Martians did not invade Earth since they were busy developing immunity to Earth diseases. However, in Killravens timeline, the Martians launched a full-scale invasion of Earth, beginning in the United Kingdom. Their conquest was initially successful but they succumbed to Earth's natural diseases before they could conquer more of the planet. The governments of the world, believing that the general populace wouldnt be able to handle the truth, decided to cover-up the invasion, possibly by claiming it was a hoax based on the novel The War of the Worlds which had been published a few years earlier. 

1938  (as in the real world) On Sunday, October 30th (Halloween Eve), the CBS radio networks Mercury Theater on the Air broadcast an updated version of The War of the Worlds starring Orson Welles as a radio play. Mass panic ensued. 

August, 1975  Major Astro, a time-traveler from an alternate 31st century Earth, tells the Defenders and his unwitting younger self, Vance Astrovik, a history lesson of his planet. He reveals that, in his timeline, his planet was (will be?) conquered by invaders from their neighboring planet in the year 2001 (i.e. 26 years in the future). 

October, 1976  Spider-Man accidentally time-travels to Killravens alternate future timeline of 2019. After returning to his present, Spider-Man somehow forgets his experiences in the futures he visited. 

November, 1980  It was (supposedly) at this point in time that the actions of Major Vance Astro caused the timeline of the Guardians of the Galaxy to diverge from the mainstream timeline. 

July, 1990  Quasar flies the two Blood Brothers to Mars, challenges them to a fight, takes a beating from them and then leaves them there. He doesnt detect any signs of life on the red planet but, then again, he wasnt really looking. 



PART E: Final thoughts 

Ive enjoyed putting together this posting but Ive come to realize that it really serves no purpose, at least as regards the MCP. Even if it was revealed that the timeline of the Killraven who appeared in AMAZING ADVENTURES was definitely part of the timeline of the Guardians of the Galaxy (and that there was a failed large-scale Martian invasion of the mainstream Earth in 1901), theres still really no reason to remove the entries for the GotG characters and place them on the Killraven Mythos page. For one thing, since none of the AA2 characters have ever visited the mainstream timeline (nor are they likely to do so), it makes sense that they be listed on their own separate page. However, since various GotG characters have visited the mainstream timeline and interacted with its denizens, it only makes sense that they continue to be listed alongside the mainstream characters. 

Another reason that I oppose combining the GotG and AA2 characters is because there is no interaction between the two groups. As far as I know, all of the AA2 characters lived out their lives and died centuries before most of the GotG characters were even born. And as for those long-lived GotG characters who lived through the War of the Worlds (i.e. Wonder Man, Vision, Thor, Doctor Strange, Shamrock), Ive never read any story in which they interact with (or even mention) Killraven and his Freemen. So why bother to group them together? 

Finally, with regards to the DEF 26-FB listing which appears in some of the entries on the Killraven Mythos page, Ive come to the conclusion that it should be removed from those listings since its not a true flashback. Taken in context, theres nothing to indicate that the scene depicted in that one panel in DEF 26 was something that actually happened (unless Major Astro was recalling a group photo taken by the Freemen  which seems unlikely). Since that one panel is probably nothing more than an artists conception of what the legendary Killraven and his Freemen looked like, I see no reason to assume that it is an actual flashback to something that really happened to Killraven. As such, it should not be included in the MCP. 

Don Campbell

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Posted: 06 Jul 2004 02:21 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

DonCampbell wrote: 
>>>
Second, if The War of the Worlds was written in order to fictionalize the invasion of 1901, how could it have been published in 1897, four years BEFORE the actual Martian invasion took place? 
<<<

You're assuming that Wells wrote "War of the Worlds" at the same time in the Marvel Multiverse as he did our reality. 


DonCampbell wrote: 
>>>
I think its significant that all three of these stories were written by the same person, Michael Gallagher, and that some of his GOTG stories are inconsistent with earlier stories. A good example of this can be found in Ripjaks log program which seems to state that his races long occupation of Earth lasted for hundreds of years. This is inconsistent with previous stories, notably DEFENDERS #26, which established that the Martians had abandoned Earth by 2075. 
<<<

This discrepancy doesn't neccessarily mean anything. We don't know how long a "Martian" Year is relative to an Earth Year. It's possible the hundreds of years remark means Earth Years. It's possible that it's a Mars Year. It's possible the length of the year is based on the "Martian" homeworld which may have a very fast (relative to Earth's) period of revolution around its star. Hundreds of "Martian" Years could pass while a small amount (say 74) of Earth Years takes place in the same amount of time. 


DonCampbell wrote: 
>>>
1899 Thus, in the mainstream timeline, there was NO INVASION in 1901. However, since the recon mission died while scouting for a planned invasion, some "Martians" could have considered the 1899 recon mission as "the first failed invasion" of Earth (as mentioned by Ripjak in GOTG #55).  
<<<

Calling a reconnaissance mission a "failed invasion" is pretty cheap, too. Aborted or postponed (100 Earth years), maybe. But it can't have failed since it never took place, according to your theory.

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Posted: 06 Jul 2004 03:25 pm    
By Enda80

"65 million years ago  A mass extinction occurred on Earth which wiped out the dinosaurs. " 

I thought I would mention the two issues (known to me) which discuss the extinction of the dinosaurs. The earliest published of these was Conan the Barbarian I#163. In that issue, Conan meets a member of a race of fungus-like beings. This fungus being recalls how his race existed around the time of the dinosaurs, and how a comet contributed to the extinction of the dinosaurs. 
Iron Man Annual#10 showed Atum's battle with Set as part of the Saga of the Serpent Crown. 
I thought this might make an interesting addition to your records. 
........................................................................................................... 

"9) SILVER SURFER (vol. 4) #7 (May, 2004)  In Revelation Part I the Silver Surfer recounts this (NEW) history of the solar system..... Second, the Surfer also reveals that the Annunaki had created a planet-sized machine named Marduk which drowned the warring kingdoms of an earlier civilization on Earth when they waged endless war on each other. This seems to be a new version of the Great Cataclysm that destroyed Atlantis and Lemuria." 

Somebody at the Appendix had the idea of doing a history of the Great Cataclysm. It got put on the back-burner, but what I wrote up I have posted at a bunch of message boards. If anyone wishes to view it, try these urls 

http://www.captaincomics.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=2150&hl=Kull 

and this Google link 

Besides this Silver Surfer storyline, other curve balls were Thor I#404-406 and Man-Thing III#5-8 (the Evenor storyline). The latter storyline seemed to show an Atlantis more in line with Greek myth, as opposed to the Kull/Kamuu Atlantis were are used to. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/apprealworldabraham.htm#cross 
has a list of issues depicting the Great Cataclysm. 

The Thor I#404/4-406/2 storyline caused a lot of problems with chronology, as discussed in these threads 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=28&highlight=fandral 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=90&highlight=fandral 

........................................................................................................... 
Vis a vis Deathlok and GOTG 

By the way, during the System Bytes crossover, the Michael Collins Deathlok was seen in a flashback to the past of Earth-GOTG, so at least he existed in their past. 

Incidentally, the Official Index to Marvel Team-Up made the first explicit reference that the timeline of Earth-GOTG had a counterpart of Deathlok when it covered MTU I#45-46. 

Finally, something strange that was missed before; many people think Earth-GOTG diverged from Earth-616 with MTIO#69. Yet, The Official Handbook Entry for Vance Astro in the original Handbook#12 stated that Earth-GOTG diverged when Reed Richards did not release his experimental starship to the U.S. government.Quote: 
 


Last edited by Enda80 on 06 Jul 2004 04:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 06 Jul 2004 04:10 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Finally, something strange that was missed before; many people think Earth-GOTG diverged from Earth-616 with MTIO#69. Yet, The Official Handbook Entry for Vance Astro in the original Handbook#12 stated that Earth-GOTG diverged when Reed Richards did not release his experimental starship to the U.S. government. 
<<<

What does Marvel Two-In-One #69 say? 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 06 Jul 2004 08:53 pm    
By StAkAr Karnak

I have to offer commendation to Don for such zeal and effort in compiling all of this stuff. Until I can get some time to do it justice, I'll have to refrain from a response. 

One quick addition to the list - the Surfer visited Mars in vol. 3 of his book; I want to say in #34. He stops there to rest and has a dream where Thanos is resurrected. Norrin leaves the Red Planet shortly afterward, without exploring it. 

- SK

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Posted: 08 Jul 2004 01:56 pm    
By DonCampbell


Thanks for the commendation, it's nice to feel appreciated. You may have noticed that I twice requested assistance from anybody who has read Amazing Adventures #38, the issue in which Killraven (may have) encountered various Marvel super-heroes (while he's in a dream-state?). This is just to let you know, SK, that I had you in mind when I asked for help/input. 

As for the Surfer's brief visit to Mars, I had completely forgotten about it until I read your posting. Since you provided the issue number, I decided to review that issue. You were right that it was in SS #34 that Norrin Radd had a dream in which he witnessed the resurrection of Thanos but the place where he had the dream was actually "a lifeless world without a name." However, the Surfer did visit Mars soon after that. In SS #36, after visiting Earth to inform the Avengers about the return of Thanos, the Surfer left to begin searching for the mad Titan but was ambushed by the Impossible Man while passing Mars. Caught by the gravity of Mars, the Surfer crash-landed on the surface where he had to put up with the Impossible Man's attempts to teach him to lighten up. As you said, considering the urgency of his search for Thanos, Norrin probably left the Red Planet shortly afterward, without exploring it. 

Don Campbell

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Posted: 11 Jul 2004 11:38 am    
By DonCampbell

Andy Holcombe wrote: 
>>>
DonCampbell wrote: 
>>>
Second, if The War of the Worlds was written in order to fictionalize the invasion of 1901, how could it have been published in 1897, four years BEFORE the actual Martian invasion took place? 
<<<

You're assuming that Wells wrote "War of the Worlds" at the same time in the Marvel Multiverse as he did our reality. 
<<<

As I understand it, unless there is a story which specifically states otherwise, historical events and characters in the Marvel Universe are assumed to have been the same as those in the real world. For example, the MU versions of historical personages like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln are assumed to have lived lives that were (virtually) identical to those of their non-fictional counterparts. Similarly, events like wars or disasters that occurred in the real world are assumed to have taken place at the same time (and in the same way) in the Marvel Universe. So I'm assuming that the life of the MU version of Herbert George Wells followed the same course as that of the real-world Wells, including the dates when he wrote and published "The War of the Worlds." Unless you know of a story which specifically states that Wells DIDN'T write WotW in 1897? 

Also, I reconsidered how the governments of Killraven's Earth could have "fictionalized" the Martian invasion of 1901. Instead of having Wells write the novel in 1901, which you seem to be suggesting, it seems more likely that they would have covered-up the invasion by claiming it was a hoax based on the novel The War of the Worlds which had been published a few years earlier. However, I still believe that there would have been just too much death and damage for any cover-up to work. 


Andy Holcombe wrote: 
>>>
DonCampbell wrote: 
>>>
I think its significant that all three of these stories were written by the same person, Michael Gallagher, and that some of his GOTG stories are inconsistent with earlier stories. A good example of this can be found in Ripjaks log program which seems to state that his races long occupation of Earth lasted for hundreds of years. This is inconsistent with previous stories, notably DEFENDERS #26, which established that the Martians had abandoned Earth by 2075. 
<<<

This discrepancy doesn't neccessarily mean anything. We don't know how long a "Martian" Year is relative to an Earth Year. It's possible the hundreds of years remark means Earth Years. It's possible that it's a Mars Year. It's possible the length of the year is based on the "Martian" homeworld which may have a very fast (relative to Earth's) period of revolution around its star. Hundreds of "Martian" Years could pass while a small amount (say 74) of Earth Years takes place in the same amount of time. 
<<<

Okay, let's get our facts straight. When I was thinking about Ripjak's log program, I was under the impression that, since Nikki had "rigged it to broadcast in English", all the Martian words had been translated into their Earth equivalents. I had assumed that any Martian measurements would also have been translated into their Earth equivalents. Thus, Ripjak's reference to hundreds of years would have meant hundreds of Earth years...which would definitely have been VERY wrong (and that's not even considering the possibility that Gallagher, when he wrote that story, had forgotten that a Martian year (i.e. one year on Mars) is about twice as long as an Earth year). However, if you're correct and the homeworld of the "Martians" had a much shorter year than Earth, then hundreds of their years could have passed in less than 74 Earth years. 

Unfortunately, there's a problem with this scenario as well. While all of us here in 2004 are well aware that it is an established fact that the "Martian Masters" who fought Killraven were NOT native to Mars, every story in which they have appeared to date (except for Avengers Forever) has been written as though they WERE native to Mars. And that includes Gallagher's GOTG stories which contain several references to that effect. 


Andy Holcombe wrote: 
>>>
DonCampbell wrote: 
>>>
1899 Thus, in the mainstream timeline, there was NO INVASION in 1901. However, since the recon mission died while scouting for a planned invasion, some "Martians" could have considered the 1899 recon mission as "the first failed invasion" of Earth (as mentioned by Ripjak in GOTG #55).  
<<<

Calling a reconnaissance mission a "failed invasion" is pretty cheap, too. Aborted or postponed (100 Earth years), maybe. But it can't have failed since it never took place, according to your theory. 
<<<


The reason why I am SO against there having been a 1901 Martian invasion in the mainstream Marvel timeline is because of how INCREDIBLY STUPID it would make the denizens of that timeline. Personally, any species who would allow themselves to be governed by beings who, in the face of a devastating alien invasion that was thwarted only by sheer luck, decide to COVER UP the fact of that invasion and go on as if nothing had ever happened (to the extent of NOT making any preparations against possible FUTURE invasions), is SO unbelievably moronic that they DESERVE TO BE INVADED, CONQUERED AND EATEN. Thus, I am willing to embrace any explanation, even one you consider to be "pretty cheap", if it will allow me assume that the human race of Earth-616 is not wholly lacking in brains. To that end, saying that the "failed first invasion" that Ripjak mentioned was actually a recon mission that died while scouting for an intended invasion works for me. I'm sorry you don't agree. 

Don Campbell

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Posted: 16 Aug 2004 04:40 am    
By Enda80

In Star Wars Weekly#93, the Watcher narrates a story of a man named Jason Gibbs (Uatu mentions that he met with Gibbs), and this story shows how Gibbs went to Mars to get a new face. 


Pre-Hero monster collectors take note; many of those pre-hero monster 
titles are now in continuity because of Star Wars Weekly. Why? 
Because Star Wars Weekly had a series called Tales of the Watcher. In 
it, old pre-hero monster stories were reprinted with a new framing 
sequence with the Watcher (Uatu). 

These include 
SWW 89 
Forbidden Planet 
93 
My Other Face 
61 
Thing From Planet X 
48 
Pildorr

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Posted: 16 Aug 2004 10:19 am    
By jephyork
Director

Are you talking about the Marvel UK "Star Wars Weekly", published in the 80s in England? 

I think those Tales of the Watcher features are themselves reprinted from earlier US books ... I'm thinking back-ups in Tales of Suspense, maybe? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 16 Aug 2004 11:21 am    
By Ant-Man

You're right Jeph, there was a TALES OF THE WATCHER back-up series in Tales of Suspense from issue 49 through 58, but I'm not sure if those are the same stories that Enda80 is referring to. If I remember correctly, the Tales of Suspense stories told Uatu's own personal history.
_________________
Brian Cook

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Posted: 16 Aug 2004 06:10 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

No, only one or two told Uatu's origin. The others were straight science fiction stories. 


watching: angel

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Posted: 16 Aug 2004 08:45 pm    
By Ant-Man

I stand corrected, sorry!
_________________
Brian Cook

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Posted: 17 Aug 2004 10:01 am    
By Enda80

They are pre-hero stories with the Watcher airbrushed in as a narrator.

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Posted: 17 Aug 2004 12:45 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Can you give us the titles? 


watching: both sides

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Posted: 18 Aug 2004 02:36 pm    
By Enda80

The reprints in Star Wars Weekly with the Watcher airbrushed in include; 

SWW 89 
Forbidden Planet 

SWW 93 
My Other Face from Journey Into Mystery #54, September 1959 

SWW 61 
Thing From Planet X from Tales of Suspense#3, May 1959 

SWW 48 
Pildorr the Plunderer from Stange Tales#94, March 1962 

SWW 72 
Lost Planet! 

SWW 82 
The Wings of the Butterfly from Journey Into Mystery#79, April 1962 

SWW 115 
Miracle On Rrorgo! 

Later issues have reprints titled "Tales of the Watcher", but he does not appear as narrator.

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Posted: 18 Aug 2004 02:59 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Heh. So, if we decide that the new UK framing sequences ARE canon for the Watcher ... does that retroactively imply that the Watcher was watching the framed stories, as they originally appeared? And he should get credit for having done so? 

In other words, since SWW 93 shows us the Watcher watching the events of JIM 54, does that retroactively imply that he appeared BTS in JIM 54? 

Something like this, in his listing?: 

SWW 93 ~ JIM 54-BTS 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 18 Aug 2004 03:18 pm    
By Enda80

Most of the stories I saw took place in the future, but if they did take place in the 20th century, yes, it would be fun to add those in to Uatu's chronology. 

I don't have that many issues of Star Wars Weekly. 

This reminds me of an earlier post: * * * 
mcparc 31 
Uncanny X-Men UK Annual -- UK books in general. 
Posted by Jeph! on February 14, 2003 at 23:39:32: 

I found an issue of Hulk Comic (#26) that reprints parts of H2 #231 and CA #230, with inserted panels of THE WATCHER looking on! This is CERTAINLY new material.

Last edited by Enda80 on 18 Aug 2004 03:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 18 Aug 2004 03:27 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I don't think that merely watching a story from afar should qualify as a BTS appearance. It's a different matter if he's physically present but off camera. 

The Watcher, however, is just a guy who monitors the whole world. I don't think it would make sense to give him BTS appearances for every event that he acknowledges watching - he's not influencing the scene in any way.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 19 Dec 2004 08:01 pm    
By Enda80

Monsters on the Prowl doctors "They Met On Mars" into a SHIELD/Hydra story.

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Posted: 25 Jul 2005 07:31 pm    
By Enda80

Spider-Man did not forget his future adventures. Remember, Mentallo found about about Deathlok by eavesdropping on Spider-Man's thoughts.

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Posted: 25 Jul 2005 09:59 pm    
By JonathanC

A couple of thoughts/questions, but first a disclaimer ... unlike you, I 
like having all the different parts of the MU in one big playground. I 
loved it when Roy Thomas included the Eternals in his big Thor story. So my 
prejudice is the opposite of yours. 

Here's a big weakness in your theory ... 

DonCampbell wrote: 
>>>
1897---(as in the real world) "The War of the Worlds" by 
Herbert George Wells was serialized in print in the pages of Pearsons Magazine 
from April to December. 
<<<

You haven't explained how H G Wells managed, with uncanny accuracy, to 
predict many characteristics and actions that hadn't happened yet. He 
would need to have psychic abilities of some sort to this, wouldn't he? This 
isn't Earth-1, where writers pick up mysterious vibrations of real people on 
Earth-2, and make them into comic books which can then inspire a new silver age 
of heroes (as in the Flash). I would like some in-story evidence that he had 
these powers, before accepting that he did. 

Here's a place where evidence you interpret one way does not really support 
that interpretation ... 

DonCampbell wrote: 
>>>
Most of the stories that mention the invasion by the 
Martians in 2001 seem to consider it a unique event. The following nine 
histories/recaps only refer to "the" Martian invasion and make no mention of an 
earlier invasion that failed: DEFENDERS #26 (August, 1975), MARVEL PRESENTS #4 
(March, 1976), GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY #1 (June, 1990), GOTG #2 (July, 1990), 
GOTG #50/2 (July, 1994), GOTG #54 (Nov, 1994), GOTG Annual #4/2 (1994), GOTG 
#61/1 (June, 1995), and GALACTIC GUARDIANS #1 (July, 1994). 
<<<

But a failed invasion is not an invasion! The Martians did only invade 
once: the first time, they were repelled. 

And finally, you write 


DonCampbell wrote: 
>>>
The reason why I am SO against there having been a 1901 
Martian invasion in the mainstream Marvel timeline is because of how INCREDIBLY 
STUPID it would make the denizens of that timeline. 
<<<

Not necessarily! There are many ways in which a cover-up in the MU can be 
much more devastatingly complete than a cover=up in ours. There are lots of 
characters with mind-warping, and even reality-warping powers. Dr Strange 
managed a "cover-up" (I think that's a fair term, though it wasn't used in the 
story) when the entire Earth was destroyed. And what about the Sentry? 

I think the natural interpretation is that in the MU, Wells' book followed a 
real invasion. This is what we've been told, as canon. Plus, it's what I 
prefer. 

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Posted: 25 Jul 2005 11:26 pm    
By SeanCurtin

There's also the possibility that the 1901 Martian invasion in the MU wasn't nearly as broad in scope as it was in Wells' book. If it was stopped much earlier in the MU than it was in the novel, i.e. before heavy human causalties were incurred, then a cover-up would have been possible. Without a source specifically stating what parts of "War of the Worlds" were specifically true in the MU and/or Killraven's world, we don't know enough about the specifics of the first invasion to rule out the possibility that the same invasion occurred in both the MU and in Killraven's world. 

-Sean

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Posted: 27 Jul 2005 11:21 pm    
By Sijo

I think the Martian Invasion of 1901 falls in the same category as most of the Alien invasions from Marvel's Atlas Comics days. Some of them are canon, some are TOO absurd to be, and most are still undetermined. One problem is precisely that many of those alien attacks were reported as having panicked the WHOLE world. Now, we know that an agency called CONTROL tried to keep the existency of aliens from the public for a while, but in the case of large-scale invasions that just wouldn't be possible. 

I like the idea that the first martian "invasion" was just a scout party that quickly died and was covered up. Specially since the whole incident has ALWAYS been absurd... would invaders from some other world REALLY be stupid enough to attack without checking for biohazards first? Most of the WotW versions fail to explain this (including the Spielberg movie) except the TV series, which revealed that the 'martians' were just drones sent to test Earth's defenses by another race and were never intended to survive. I know this doesn't seem to apply to the Marvel Universe, I'm just pointing that the writers could've corrected that but never bothered. 

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Aug 2005 06:43 pm    
By Enda80

In Uncanny Origins#4, the Xandarians soldiers are shown facing four armed green skinned aliens with swords-very similar to the Martians of the John Carter series.

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Posted: 11 Oct 2005 08:31 pm    
By StAkAr Karnak

Just went to a comic shop to pick up OHOTMU Alternate Universes 2005. First time I've been in one in close to 2 years, I think. 

Anyway, the book calls the Guardians' reality "Earth-691". It also calls Killraven's timeline "Earth-691". Looks like the official stand is that KR & the GotG are in the same reality. It follows that they can all be listed on the same page, and the title can be changed from "Killraven & Co" to "Earth-691". 

That said, it does not say what the relationship is between Earth-616 and Earth-691, although it implies that the 1901 War of the Worlds was an event localized on Earth-691. 

The book confirms that the Avengers Forever-Killraven is from a different reality (Earth-9930). 

- SK

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Posted: 11 Oct 2005 08:39 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

StAkAr Karnak wrote: 
>>>
Anyway, the book calls the Guardians' reality "Earth-691". It also calls Killraven's timeline "Earth-691". Looks like the official stand is that KR & the GotG are in the same reality. It follows that they can all be listed on the same page, and the title can be changed from "Killraven & Co" to "Earth-691" 
<<<

We might change the name to "Killraven/GOTG", but don't look for "Earth-691", as only a dozen or so people would have any clue what that was referring to. 


watching: degrassi jr high

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Posted: 12 Oct 2005 06:06 pm
By StAkAr Karnak

Oh, I meant that there might be a note on the page itself underneath "Killraven/GOTG" that "Earth-691" just happens to be the name of the reality. Earth-616 is used increasingly often (there's even a Wikipedia article on it), so it couldn't hurt for 691. 

- SK

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Posted: 13 Oct 2005 02:45 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Do we really want to encourage this dreary cosmic barcoding, though?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 13 Oct 2005 03:34 pm    
By Enda80

Sure we do. After all, it makes clarifications easy. 

Eight years from now, it will 2013-so calling Days of Future Past characters ---2013 will not work. (As noted, Reed Richards did once call that timeline "Days of Future Past" verbatim in story. When Reed Richards first met the Time Variance authority, he said "Why are you hassling us? Why not the X-Men and all the trouble they have caused with the Days of Future Past?". 

However, that is rather awkward for a chronology listing. And what about stories that have not received offical names? Do you want to have chronologies for "Mister Fantastic of alternate Earth where Josef Stalin lived till the modern era only it was actually a robot that the Soviet Inner Circle created to replace him when he died in 1952 and the robot became sentient?").

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Posted: 13 Oct 2005 04:06 pm    
By Somebody

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
StAkAr Karnak wrote: 
>>>
Oh, I meant that there might be a note on the page itself underneath "Killraven/GOTG" that "Earth-691" just happens to be the name of the reality. Earth-616 is used increasingly often (there's even a Wikipedia article on it), so it couldn't hurt for 691. 
<<<

Do we really want to encourage this dreary cosmic barcoding, though? 
<<<

I say thee nay (i.e., I hate it too.)

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Oct 2005 04:29 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
And what about stories that have not received offical names? Do you want to have chronologies for "Mister Fantastic of alternate Earth where Josef Stalin lived till the modern era only it was actually a robot that the Soviet Inner Circle created to replace him when he died in 1952 and the robot became sentient?"). 
<<<

Yes, as opposed to "Earth 7123-R", which communicates nothing. 

Seriously, if it ever became an issue, I could see us using the first appearance of an "earth" (MR. FANTASTIC | What If #37), assuming that particular Mr. Fantastic appears in some true Marvel Universe stories, somewhere. But keep those arbitrary numerical designations away from me. Giving their creators the benefit of the doubt, the purpose may be to clarify, but the result is only to confuse everyone but a handful of people. 

As for 2013, Mr. Fantastic may have used Days of Future Past, but the Official Index named the characters 2013, so that's what we'll use, at least for a little while. 


watching: lou dobbs

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Posted: 13 Oct 2005 06:51 pm    
By Enda80

How about an addition to the FAQ page, with a list of alternate Earths with official core continum designations? Or I can ask Snood if you could link to his site.

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Posted: 13 Oct 2005 07:00 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I don't really think the FAQ is a good place for the list itself, but if Jeff has a page on his site that breaks down the various universi by number, I'd be glad to link to it from our FAQ. I actually think that might be a good idea. I've wanted to link to Jeff for a while, but I haven't found a particularly appropriate way to do it, until now. But that strikes me as a pretty natural match. 

Does he have such a page? 


watching: clemson vs north carolina state

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Posted: 14 Oct 2005 03:29 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Sure we do. After all, it makes clarifications easy. 
<<<

No, it doesn't. A number is only informative if readers know what it relates to, and only a tiny minority of ultra-hardcore continuity freaks could ever summon up the willpower to memorise more than a handful of these numbers. Hell, even most of US can't be bothered with them, and we're the definition of hardcore continuity freakery. 

The numbers are cute when used as a throwaway, but next to useless as an actual means of communication. They have some possible use in writing articles which require to distinguish between very subtly different timelines (such as the multiple variations on Days of Future Past), but in the overwhelming majority of cases, it is infinitely more useful to say "the Squadron Supreme's world", "the New Universe", "the Chronomancer timeline" or "the Askani world" than to blurt out a string of random digits that convey absolutely nothing to the vast majority of readers. 

Incidentally, I'm not criticising the HANDBOOK for its little numbering exercise, since for the most part they didn't use the numbers as the primary means of referring to the worlds in question, but just kept them as an amusing background detail - which is what they're for. (The HANDBOOK has developed an unfortunate tendency to blurt out random facts without much apparent regard for user-friendliness, but this isn't an example of it.)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 26 Nov 2005 10:58 am    
By Enda80

Mars figures in Van Doom, as well as Grogg.

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Posted: 29 Nov 2005 04:22 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Was that even a sentence? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 29 Nov 2005 08:53 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Translation: The fourth planet factors into a Dutch guy with a tragic fate and an alcoholic liquor.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 16 Apr 2006 05:17 pm    
By Enda80

Also of note for Killraven, don't forget Apeslayer, his counterpart who fought on the Planet of the Apes.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Apr 2006 09:19 am    
By Enda80

http://pota.goatley.com/marvel_uk.html 
has online Apeslayer's appearances.

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Posted: 18 Apr 2006 12:47 pm    
By jephyork
Director

First off, Apeslayer was just an edited reprint of Killraven -- all the martian faces were covered up with ape faces. I don't think it's canon, unless you can buy that two guys on two planets had two word-for-word identical adventures against different alien foes. 

Second, what's your point in mentioning Apeslayer? "Don't forget" him, you say -- but why? What relevance does he have to the discussion in this thread? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 17 May 2006 12:04 pm    
By Enda80

More Martian info 

The Martian Masters have a 1970's Handbook entry. This entry sets on Earth-616 the Matian Walks Among Us, Martian who Stole a City, and Zetora.

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Posted: 17 May 2006 12:27 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Are those Marvel comic books? If so, which ones? If not, so what? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 06 Aug 2006 08:35 pm    
By DonCampbell

Since today is the 25th-month anniversary of the first topic that I started on this board, I thought I'd celebrate by doing a brief recap of the current situation regarding Martians in the MU. 

First, with the release of last year's "Alternate Universes 2005" edition of the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, the mainstream Earth-616 has been officially severed from the Killraven/GotG Earth-691. As a result, the main problem that I had with linking the Killraven from Amazing Adventures with the Guardians (namely, that the GotG timeline "only recently" diverged from the mainsteam timeline) has been removed. Therefore, events which took place in the past of Killraven's Earth are no longer required to have taken place in the past of the mainstream Earth. The fact that the KILLRAVEN entry begins with the words "In 1901, Earth-691 was invaded by Mars" indicates that the new official position is that Earth-691 diverged from Earth-616 sometime before the year 1901. However, even this new, earlier divergence point does not necessarily mean that Earth-616 did not experience a "Martian" invasion in 1901 that was exactly like that which occurred on Earth-691. While I personally dislike the idea, the Handbook did not DEFINITELY state that the "Martians" did not attempt to invade Earth-616 in 1901. 

In the absence of any definitive statements, those readers who like the idea that a "War of the Worlds" invasion could have taken place on Earth-616 can still argue for their point of view. 


PART A: Killraven and his world 

Since the Killraven from AMAZING ADVENTURES and the Guardians of the Galaxy are now officially considered to be natives of the same Earth-691 timeline, there is no longer any point in arguing whether or not Killraven's world of 2019 was meant to be an alternate future of Marvel-Earth. Instead, we now know for certain that it is a future of an alternate (i.e. already-diverged) Marvel-Earth. 

For the record, I finally managed to read the story from AMAZING ADVENTURES (vol. 2) #38. "Death's Dark Dreamer!" tells the story of what happened when Killraven stumbled across the Miami Museum of Cultural Development and became caught up in the projected dreams of an astronaut from the "Mars launch in 1999." During the hallucination, Killraven encountered distorted versions of numerous Marvel characters. Rather ambiguously, the awakened astronaut later described the figures as "all the heroes from my youth" but he also often refered to them as "myths." The only Marvel character that is definitely "real" in the projected nightmare is the Man-Thing who appears as part of an actual memory of an encounter that the astronaut had with the creature in the Florida Everglades. All the other Marvel characters could just be the astronaut's childhood myths brought to life. 

Among the 24 canonical Killraven stories, only three mention the earlier invasion. The first is AMAZING ADVENTURES #18 wherein a dying Keeper tells Killraven about the 1901 "War of the Worlds" invasion. The second is Marvel Graphic Novel #7 in which the "Martian Elite Profile" for the High Overlord mentions that he was the "Decisive Select Forum Member in persuading council of the feasibility of Second Invasion of Earth." The third story was the Killraven one-shot from 2001 in which Killraven revealed that "War of the Worlds" by H.G. Wells was a fictionalization of an actual invasion which mankind had found "was just too terrible to bear. 


PART B: References to the Martian invasion(s) in GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY stories 

Since the Guardians of the Galaxy now definitely come from the same Earth-691 timeline as the Killraven from Amazing Adventures, all my objections to references to an earlier invasion of Earth-616 are now pointless since they no longer MUST also refer to the mainstream Earth's history. With that in mind, the implication in certain stories that the 2001 invasion was a unique event can be ignored and those three stories which state that there were two different "Martian" invasions of Earth are now validated. Gee, that was easy. 


PART C: Mars in the mainstream MU 

Since the backstory of the fourth SILVER SURFER series was revealed to be nothing more than a delusion of the Marduk-object, the idea that Mars was once inhabited by a Caucasian-looking humanoid race over 65 million years ago can now be completely ignored. 

Although the "All-New Official Handbook" seems to be insisting that ALL stories published by Marvel which include the planet Mars or encounters with self-professed Martians are canon, I remain of the opinion that only such stories which are absolutely set in the Earth-616 continuity should be considered valid. To my mind, that means that the true history of Mars-616 remains that told by the "Takers" in 2099: World of Tomorrow. 

Similary, the only two visits to Mars that I consider valid are those in Quasar #12 and Silver Surfer (vol. 3) #36. 

As for the alternate future seen in Avengers Forever #4-6, there is no indication that the "Martians" who might invade Earth-616 sometime in the future have yet arrived on Mars. And even if they have, that timeline could have already diverged from the "mainstream" Earth-616 reality. So only future stories will tell. 

Finally, Pete Wisdom's off-hand mention (in X-Force #102) of how British Intel's primary dissection lab had dissected Martians in 1899" remains unconfirmed. Given Wisdom's personality, he could have just been playing headgames with Alistaire Stuart...or he could have been telling the truth. Again, as above, only future stories will tell. 


PART D: Conclusions and speculation 

The official revelation that the Guardians of the Galaxy are NOT from a timeline that only recently diverged from the mainstream Earth reality has rendered most of my conclusions and speculations irrelevant. However, there are several matters that I feel remain to be validated by future stories. First, the green-skinned semi-humanoids known to humans as the "Takers" (from 2099: World of Tomorrow) should either a) be confirmed as being actual, native Martians or b) be revealed to be aliens who colonized Mars millenia ago. Either choice is fine by me. 

Second, the question of whether or not an unsuccessful invasion of Earth-616 by "Martians" took place in the year 1901 should be resolved. As I see it, there are three possible solutions: 

1) The "Martians" had not yet arrived on Mars-616 by the earth-year 1901 and thus they could not have invaded Earth-616 at that time. 

2) The "Martians" arrived on Mars-616 well before 1901 and their invasion of Earth-616 took place EXACTLY as described in Amazing Adventures #18. Thus, the same sequence of events occured on both Earth-616 and Earth-691 even though those two timelines had already diverged. Similary, the invasion of Earth-616 was covered up in the same way described in the Killraven one-shot. 

3) The "Martians" arrived on Mars-616 well before 1901 but their planned 1901 invasion was aborted after a scouting mission in 1899 crashed in the United Kingdom (leaving bodies that were later dissected by British Intelligence) and the "Martians" somehow learned that previously-unsuspected deadly bacteria existed on Earth-616. After this discovery, all invasion plans were postponed indefinately but may still be enacted sometime in the future (as seen in Avengers Forever). 


PART E: Final thoughts - Also rendered irrelevant. 


Since much of my original posting no longer has any meaning, I thought that I might as well take the opportunity to post several other sections that I had edited out from my original essay because of its length. I have no idea if anyone besides myself even cares about these topics but I'm pleased that I finally got around to posting them. 


PART F: Time Machines 

During an earlier version of this topic, Jeph! expressed his belief that Dr. Doom's time machine can visit any point in the past of OUR timeline, or the future of ANY timeline which HAS NOT YET diverged from our own -- but that's ALL. It can't visit the future of a timeline that's ALREADY diverged. He went on to say that Spidey in 1976 couldn't visit a timeline that diverged in 1901 and that was a strong implication that, if Killraven is accurate, there WERE two Martian invasions in a timeline that HADN'T YET branched off of the main MU. 

While I didnt think that what Jeph was saying had ever been established as fact, there was something disturbingly-familiar about his idea and I eventually figured out what it was. While Reed Richards may be a super-genius who has invented many advanced technological devices, one thing which he did not invent was a time machine. The reason that the Fantastic Four can time travel is because they confiscated (i.e. STOLE) the time machine which Doom invented and used against them in their first encounter. It was perhaps to make up for this that certain writers have written stories in which Reed has had to modify Dooms time machine in order to enable it to take them to where they wanted to go. One such story appears in MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE #4 (July, 1974) where it was revealed that Reed had modified the launch pad of Dooms time machine so that it could now send things into the future. Once it had been accidentally turned on by the Thing, the machine then brought Tarin back from the city of New York in the year 3014. After the assembled heroes heard what she said about the Badoon conquest of her future Earth, Captain America, Sharon Carter and the Thing all volunteered to return with Tarin to her world and help fight against the Badoon. It was during this adventure that they first met the Guardians of the Galaxy. This was also the first GotG story which clearly established that Captain America and other Marvel heroes existed in their timelines past. 

A second such example occurs in FANTASTIC FOUR #153 (Nov, 1974) when Reed had to modify Dooms time machine so that it could travel cross-wise (sideways) in time. He did this so that the team could travel to Thundras alternate future Earth in order to rescue some kidnapped friends. 

If we go strictly by these stories, then it does look like Dooms time machine worked in the way that Jeph suggested but there are several other factors that have to be considered. First, Doom apparently had several versions of his time machine and most of them were more advanced than the one that the FF captured in FANTASTIC FOUR #5. While that time machine could apparently only send objects into (and brings objects from) the past, the story in the X-MEN/DR. DOOM 98 Annual showed that, soon after Magnetos rule of San Marco was overthrown, Doom used another of his time machines to transport himself and the Seer into the future. This indicates that the device which Doom allowed the FF to capture may have been an earlier, less advanced version of his time machine. 

Second, theres no way of knowing exactly which of Dooms time machines appeared in MARVEL TEAM-UP #41-46. It could have been like the one from FF #5 or it could have been an advanced model. 

Third, while Reed Richards may have modified the FFs time machine in order to enable it to reach more destinations in space/time, he does not appear to have altered the way in which it functioned. If thats true and Reed only altered the control mechanism of the time machine, then that indicates that Dooms time machine was probably ALWAYS capable of transporting objects forward into the future or sideways to alternate timelines. The only reason that it couldnt do so initially was because Doom had (purposely?) not equipped it with the ability to target any space/time coordinates that were not in the past of the mainstream 616 timeline. 

Fourth, the only reason that Spider-Man traveled to Killravens 2019 future-Earth and later to Deathloks 1985 future-Earth was because an electrical storm derailed the time platform and caused it to overshoot Spider-Mans own time. In other words, the storm caused a failure in the time platforms guidance system that could have enabled it to transport Spidey to locations that it had not been programmed to reach. Of course, this is assuming that Spidey was using one of Dooms earlier time machines and that is by no means certain. 

Finally, even if we assume that the time machine that appeared in MARVEL TEAM-UP #41-46 could only travel ALONG a single timeline, the fact that Spidey was trying to travel back to his own time from the year 1692 is significant. As I see it, the multiverse is like an ever-branching system of railway tracks. The system begins (in the past) with a single track but as a traveler moves forward (into the future) he passes through a number of junctions (divergence points) at which the track hes on branches out into several different tracks (alternate timelines). For a time machine that can only travel along its timeline, traveling into the past is simple because, from its perspective, all the tracks are merging together into a single timeline. In contrast, when such a time machine returns to its present it will pass through multiple junctions and at each of them it must choose the correct track to follow or else it wont get back to where it started. In other words, if Spidey was riding on one of Dooms less advanced time platforms and the electrical storm did interfere with its guidance system and derail it, then there are numerous divergence points at which it could have taken a wrong turn and thus ended up on Killravens timeline EVEN IF that particular timeline diverged from the Earth-616 timeline during or prior to the year 1901. 

In conclusion, I respectfully disagree with Jephs opinion. 


PART G: Point of Divergence 

Many Guardians of the Galaxy stories have editorial footnotes which point out that the Guardians timeline diverged from mainstream Marvel time in Marvel Two-in-One #69. In fact, thats NOT what happened. True, Major Astro did awaken the dormant psionic abilities of the teenage Vance Astrovik and thus prevent his young counterpart from living the exact same life as he had but by the time that happened Earth-616 was ALREADY diverged from the GotG timeline. 

When Mark Gruenwald was Senior Executive Editor at Marvel, he codified Marvels official rules for time travel. (For the full text of the Time Travel section in the Marvel editors' handbook (as presented in Marvel Age #117 [October, 1992]), visit http://www.geocities.com/mh_prime/9210.html). One of his main rules was that The act of time travel always produces a critical juncture diverging a new alternate timeline or world at the moment one enters the reality of another time period, past or future of the time period set out from. It creates one timeline where an extratemporal person or element materialized via time travel, and one 'virgin' timeline where that person or element did not. 

In other words, when beings from the GotG timeline attempted to travel back into their past, their own time traveling caused the timeline in which they arrived (Earth-616) to DIVERGE from their own timeline (and thats assuming that they had targeted the correct timeline in the first place - which we now know they had NOT). Thus, when the Guardians first traveled into their past in GIANT-SIZE DEFENDERS #5, the timeline in which they arrived was actually not their past (Earth-691) but the mainstream (Earth-616) reality. 

If we were to proceed on the now-discredited assumption that it was time travel which caused Earth-616 to diverge from Earth-691, then the point of divergence would be the earliest point in the past universe (Earth-616) at which an interaction with beings from Earth-691 occurred. The first time that the Guardians of the Galaxy arrived from their future (in GIANT-SIZE DEFENDERS #5) is actually not the first interaction. Nor was the appearance of the cyborg Korvac in GIANT-SIZE DEFENDERS #3 (January, 1975) as one of the Grandmasters minions. The first interaction/divergence MAY have occurred in MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE #4 (July, 1974) when the woman Tarin was accidentally brought back to 1974 from the Badoon-conquered Earth in the year 3014. 

The reason why I capitalized the word may is because there are two other stories which may have (unintentionally) pushed the divergence point back further than anyone realized. One of those stories was the one which introduced the GotG version of the Beyonder. In GOTG #38 (July, 1993), the Beyonder states, I come from another universe where I reign supreme! Until now, I was unaware of this alternate plane of existence!* Recent events of cosmic proportions allowed a window to open. I became intrigued! Bubonicus, the plague carrier, initiated the breach!** It was subsequently sealed by the Phoenix, but my curiosity was piqued! The footnotes then added that * Remember, the Guardians timeline diverged from mainstream Marvel time in Marvel Two-in-One #69 - - long before the Secret Wars! - - Craig and **in the already-classic GOTG #35. - - IBID 

Unfortunately, this is incorrect. As revealed in a flashback in SECRET WARS II #3, the (mainstream) Beyonder first became aware of Earths reality because of the accident which transformed Owen Reece into the Molecule Man in the flashback in FANTASTIC FOUR #20 (Nov, 1963). If the GotG version of the Beyonder had truly not become aware of the existence of the Earth dimension until Bubonicus caused that window to open in GOTG#35, then that means that in the Earth-691 timeline the interdimensional breach caused by Reeses accident either a) never happened or b) happened but somehow closed up before GotG Beyonder noticed its existence. Either A or B would qualify as a divergence from the Earth-616 timeline. 

Theres one more possible divergence point to consider. According to GOTG #49 (June, 1994), the cosmic entity known as the Hawk God (after having been judged and demoted by the Living Tribunal in the 31st Century) arrived on the planet Arcturus IV where he stood in solitary confinement as a silent deity in the Forbidden City for centuries until found by the Ogord children in about 2020. According to Part One of the Times of the Worlds article that was written and compiled by StAkAr Karnak and posted on his GUARDIANS OF THE WORLDS website, this means that the Hawk God must have arrived on Arcturus IV before 1820 AD. If attention was paid to Gruenwalds time travel rules, then the Hawk Gods arrival from the future SHOULD have caused a divergence to occur. However, its possible that the Living Tribunal could have sent the Hawk God back in time without causing a divergence to occur. In fact, since the Hawk God DID exist on Arcturus IV in an immobile state in Earth-691s past, that means that he MUST have been sent into his OWN past. All this really proves is that writer Michael Gallagher (and his editor Craig Anderson) REALLY had no idea how time travel in the Marvel Universe was supposed to work. I guess they never read Gruenwalds time travel memo. 

So, in conclusion, what can we determine about the point at which the GotG Earth-691 timeline diverged from the mainstream Earth-616 timeline? Actually, not very much. It definitely occurs before the GotG timeline first interacted with Earth-616 in MTIO #4 (1974) and, if the GOTG Beyonder is to be believed, also must have taken place during the events of the flashback in FF #20 (1963). Beyond that, nothing is certain. 

Of course, ever since "Alternate Universes 2005" was published, it has been acepted that Earth-691 and Earth-616 diverged sometime before the year 1901 but as far as I know no one has as yet tried to determine exactly what event caused that divergence or when it occurred. 


PART H: Sliding Timescale vs. Fixed Dates 

Theres a certain discrepancy between how the two writers of the GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY series treated the whole sliding timescale used by Marvel Comics. In DEFENDERS #26, when Major Astro first revealed the future history of his timeline, the mainstream Marvel Universes present was the world of 1975. As such, the Martian invasion of 2001 was set 26 years in the future. Fifteen years later, when the GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY series began, the Earth-616s present was 1990 but only a few Marvel years (for arguments sake, lets say five years) had passed since Major Astros history lesson. If the sliding timescale was accommodated, then the Martian invasion of 2001 should still be set 21 or so years in the future (i.e. about 2011 AD) and that would mean that all the 1990 Marvel heroes should be at least twenty years older when the invasion occurs (i.e. Reed Richards should be in his sixties, Tony Stark should be in his fifties and Peter Parker should be in his forties). 

Looking through Jim Valentinos stories, there are several signs that he was respecting the sliding timescale. For one thing, theres the few present-day Marvel characters whom he chose to reveal would later fight in the War of the Worlds. By my count, only seven such characters appeared in Valentinos stories: Captain America, Doctor Doom, Franklin Richards, Iron Man, Silver Surfer, the Vision and Wonder Man. I find it significant that six of those seven characters either have greater-than-humans lifespans (Cap, Silver Surfer, Wonder Man) or whose external appearances obscure any signs of aging (Doctor Doom, Iron Man). The seventh character is Franklin Richards who, though still a child in the MU of 1990, seems to be an adult when he fights alongside Captain America, Doctor Doom and the Silver Surfer in GotG #24. Of course, its also possible that Franklins mutant powers enabled him to grow-up quickly so that he could fight the invaders but I believe that Valentino included him to show that the War of the Worlds was (still) twenty odd years in the future of the mainstream MU. 

A second (and less ambiguous) indication comes from The (Secret) Origin of the Guardians of the Galaxy in GotG #26. In that story, Major Astro reveals that, early in the Twenty-First Century - - the specific date wouldnt matter to you - - I was to be the first normal man to travel to another star! I consider this to be significant because previous versions of this story specifically state that Major Astros thousand-year journey to Alpha Centauri launched from Earth in the year 1988. Of course, by 1990 that original launch date was unworkable since, thanks to the sliding timescale, the mainstream Vance Astrovik was still a teenager. However, since it is an ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that the Martian invasion took place years after Major Astros voyage began, Valentinos decision to push Astros launch date (at least) 13 years into the future clearly means that he must have also been pushing the date of the Martian invasion further into the future as well. 

In contrast, Michael Gallaghers stories clearly do NOT accommodate the sliding timescale. Instead, he firmly hangs onto the idea that the Martian invasion took place at the turn of the Twentieth Century which, at the time that his stories were written, was only six or seven years in the future. Also, Gallaghers stories show that many of the then-current Marvel heroes fought against the Martian invaders. I consider it significant that those heroes didnt appear to be any older than when they appeared in stories set in the present-day of the mainstream MU. 

Okay, I admit it. After more than two years I have no idea why I ever thought that anyone would be interested in this sub-topic. Still, I began it way back then so I felt that I had to finish and post it. 


PART I: H.G. Wells 

One of the reasons I opposed the idea that The War of the Worlds was written in order to fictionalize the invasion of 1901 was the fact that (in the real world) the story was first published in 1897, four years BEFORE the actual "Martian" invasion of Earth-691 took place. However, I've come to accept that that was a rather minor objection. Although it's usually safe to assume that many "real world" events occurred on the various Marvel-Earths at the same time that they did in the real world, that doesn't mean, as others have pointed out, that every event on the fictional Marvel-Earths MUST take place at the same time and in the same manner as the real world events did. So it's quite possible that the H.G. Wells of Earth-691 did not write "The War of the Worlds" in 1897. Maybe he had gotten the idea in 1897 but circumstances had prevented him from publishing the story until after the brief "Martian" invasion of 1901? Or maybe Wells-691 NEVER came up with the "War of the Worlds" plotline on his own and only wrote the story when certain individuals (acting for the greater good of humanity) asked him to write the story so as to "fictionalize" what had actually happened during the invasion? Who knows? 

By the way, does anyone know offhand if H.G. Wells and/or "War of the Worlds" have been mentioned in any story set in the mainstream Marvel Universe? The only reference that I can think of is the one in the Killraven one-shot (and that's from Earth-691). Maybe "The War of the Worlds" was never written on Earth-616 in the first place? 

Don Campbell

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Posted: 23 Sep 2006 04:10 pm    
By Enda80

DonCampbell wrote: 
>>>
For the record, I finally managed to read the story from AMAZING ADVENTURES (vol. 2) #38. "Death's Dark Dreamer!" tells the story of what happened when Killraven stumbled across the Miami Museum of Cultural Development and became caught up in the projected dreams of an astronaut from the "Mars launch in 1999." During the hallucination, Killraven encountered distorted versions of numerous Marvel characters. Rather ambiguously, the awakened astronaut later described the figures as "all the heroes from my youth" but he also often refered to them as "myths." The only Marvel character that is definitely "real" in the projected nightmare is the Man-Thing who appears as part of an actual memory of an encounter that the astronaut had with the creature in the Florida Everglades. All the other Marvel characters could just be the astronaut's childhood myths brought to life. 
Don Campbell 
<<<

We sometimes call people who really lived "legends" in a lauditory sense ("Gandhi is a legend amongst those who practice non-violent resistance.") Perhaps he used the word myth in this way? 


DonCampbell wrote: 
>>>
By the way, does anyone know offhand if H.G. Wells and/or "War of the Worlds" have been mentioned in any story set in the mainstream Marvel Universe? The only reference that I can think of is the one in the Killraven one-shot (and that's from Earth-691). Maybe "The War of the Worlds" was never written on Earth-616 in the first place? 

Don Campbell 
<<<

Well, the Morlocks named themselves after Wellsian concepts. 

http://www.geocities.com/utherworld/crosscomix.html 

http://www.geocities.com/utherworld/comixpix/zspidillit.html 

Note that Handbooks and Encys have cited PSA issues as canon.

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Posted: 23 Sep 2006 05:31 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Note that Handbooks and Encys have cited PSA issues as canon. 
<<<

Further note that the Handbooks and Encys can't tell us which books are canon. They can only tell us which books aren't canon. Policy since day one, stated dozens of times. 


watching: jeopardy

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Posted: 24 Sep 2006 06:28 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Note that Handbooks and Encys have cited PSA issues as canon. 
<<<

Is this referring to the public service give-away comics?

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Posted: 27 Jan 2007 08:07 pm    
By Enda80

The Max sampler refers to Peter Wisdom running into Martians in his current series.

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Thread 24

Posted: 28 Jan 2007 02:36 pm    Post subject: Longshot series 1-6
By frogcoin

Hi, i have been trying to tie the characters in these series with the rest of the marvel chronology but there are some things out of place, the main deal is that spiral goes from ux 199 (as indicated in the comic) to the longshot series, but then dr strange, she hulk and colossus chronology colides with that statement, to be most clear heres is the example 


Dr. Strange-----Colossus------She Hulk 
------------------------------------LSHOT 4 
LSHOT 5 
LSHOT 6 
SWII 5---------- SWII 5---------SWII 5 
-------------------UX 199 
SWII 6 
SWII 7----------SWII 7 



Spiral 
{UX 199} 
LSHOT 1 
LSHOT 3 
LSHOT 4 
LSHOT 5 
LSHOT 6 


so in this case what is the right placement of the longshot series? i dont know the background of she hulk and dr. strange at the moment to be placed in that chronology order, but i think the ux 199 and longshot is the right placement so far (at least my opinion)

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Posted: 28 Jan 2007 04:38 pm    
By Starman

frogcoin wrote: 
>>>
Spiral 
{UX 199} 
LSHOT 1 
LSHOT 3 
LSHOT 4 
LSHOT 5 
LSHOT 6 
<<<

When I tried to place Spiral's chronology in my comics collection, the order I felt was most right was LSHOT 1, UX 199, LSHOT 3-6. That based on the publication order and Spiral's thoughts in UX 199.
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

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Thread 25

Posted: 29 Jan 2007 04:34 pm    Post subject: Wolverine vol3 50/2-FB?
By Col_Fury

In the backup story, Wolverine dreams of his first encounter with the Hulk, then it turns into the scene from Ultimate Wolverine vs Hulk where Wolverine gets torn in half. Wolverine then wakes up in the Canada, revealing it to be a dream. 

Should this dream count as a FlashBack? I'm not sure it should, becuase it veers wildly off course at the end, changing realties. Or should just the first portion count?(probably not, if the whole thing is a dream and not a FlashBack, it should be all or nothing, right?) 

I'm thinking it shouldn't, what do any of you think?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jan 2007 05:01 pm    
By Somebody

Just from your description (not having read it, due to an allergy to Jeph Loeb...), I'd say nothing can be taken as reality - even relatively straight bits are likely to be "skewed" by the dream-logic.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jan 2007 05:36 pm    
By Mikhail

It confirms my suspicions that the Ultimate Universe is one long, horrible dream.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jan 2007 08:57 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

The MCP doesn't usually treat dream sequences as flashbacks. 

The only question I had about this story is: When Wolverine wakes up at the end, what the heck is he doing in Canada? Did he just have a fight with the Wendigo or something?!?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jan 2007 10:18 pm    
By Col_Fury

Thanks guys!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*	

Thread 26

Posted: 13 Jan 2007 10:48 am    Post subject: 3 Quick corrections/additions
By michaelyuri

1. 

I had originally placed Spider-Girl #51 between #45 & #46. It was a fill in issue that obviously didn't fit in publication order, so, not seeing any obvious clues to placement, I tried to keep it as close as possible to publication date by moving it to the nearest break in the story. 

However, one of the posters on the Spider-Girl Message Board demonstrated conclusively that the only place #51 can possibly go is between #35 & #36. 

see here for details: 

http://www.comicboards.com/spidergirl/view.php?rpl=040727124052&q=51 
http://www.comicboards.com/spidergirl/view.php?rpl=050518002746&q=51 

Marvel later endorsed this ordering, by reprinting 51 between 35 & 36 in the Spider-Girl digests. 

------------------------------ 

Kirby, Davida Jacqueline 
. . . 
SG 35 
*SG 51 
SG 39 
SG 44 
>>SG 51 <- Remove 
SG 49 
. . . 

Spider-Girl/May "Mayday" Parker 
. . . 
SG 35 
*SG 51 
SG 36 
. . . 
SG 45 
>>SG 51 <- Remove 
SG 46 
. . . 

Spider-Man/Peter Parker 
. . . 
SG 34 
*SG 51 
SG 36 
. . . 
SG 43 
>>SG 51 <-Remove 
SG 46 
. . . 

Watson-Parker, Mary Jane 
. . . 
SG 32 
*SG 51 
SG 36 
. . . 
SG 45 
>>SG 51 <-Remove 
SG 48 
. . . 

------------------------------ 

2. 

A-Next #9 had a character named Kendra Freeman. She was introduced as if she were going to be an important character, but then she never appeared again. Well, A-Next #9 also introduced the new hero, Blacklight, and on the Spider-Girl board Tom DeFalco confirmed that Kendra Freeman was Blacklight's real identity: 

http://www.comicboards.com/spidergirl/view.php?rpl=000705170607 

I know this isn't an official statement with Marvel editorial approval, but since DeFalco is pretty much the author of everything MC-2, I'm inclined to give it significant weight. I propose that Blacklight's entry be modified: 

*Blacklight/Kendra Freeman 

------------------------------ 

3. 

I missed a cameo by Meagyn Brady in Spider-Girl #96. 

Brady, Meagyn 
SG 53 
SG 67 
SG 89 
*SG 96 
------------------------------ 

-Mike

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Posted: 12 Jan 2007 12:18 pm    Post subject: My MC2 chronology
By jimmyflowers

I used to post my MC2 chronology and Ultimate stuff here in the forums, but I've since started my own site with a bunch of chronologies for all media (film, tv, comics, novels, etc.). 

Here's a link to my MC2 chronology in case anyone is interested. 

http://www.seedwiki.com/wiki/chronology_central/mc2_universe?wikiPageId=183169 

Here's a link to the main site, and feel free to contribute: 

http://www.seedwiki.com/wiki/chronology_central

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jan 2007 09:16 am    
By michaelyuri

That's great! Thanks for the link. 

I'll spend some time relatively soon comparing your MC2 chronologies to the ones I posted here to see how well they match up. 

-Mike

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jan 2007 06:14 pm    
By michaelyuri

Okay, I've finished comparing the character chronologies. I found quite a few entries that I was missing. There were also a couple flashbacks that I had missed. I've added these, along with other corrections, below. 

A few other preliminary notes: 

There was a plot in A-Next and Spider-Girl involving an alternate earth. I had originally listed alternate earth characters who are the counterpart of (and have the same name as) a well-known 616 character as "II", but I think for clarity it would be better to identify them specifically as "(Alternate Earth)". As far as I can tell, this world has never been assigned a universe number. [Corrected - see later post below] 

There were a few characters that I had previously considered too minor to warrant a listing, but after reconsidering, I think they are probably significant enough to be added: April and June (from Team Spider), and Lt. Haberstein 

There are some differences in ordering between my chronologies and jimmyflowers's, primarily concerning the placement of J2, A-Next, and Spider-Girl 0.5. For the most part I tried to keep these books as close to publishing order as possible, unless there was a good reason to do otherwise. I didn't see any reason why my ordering doesn't work or why another is better (though I haven't had time to really dig into it), so for now I've left the order as is. If anybody has any specific reasons why the order of these stories should be changed, I would love to discuss it. 

I'd like to thank jimmyflowers again for posting the link to his chronologies -- it definitely helps to be able to check your work against someone else's. 


A few questions for the group: 
1. On the first page of Spider-Girl #46, Spider-Girl sees surveilance footage of Angel Face and Funny Face from the previous day. I had originally listed this as a flashback entry for the Faces, but I seem to recall a conversation relatively recently in which someone indicated that this type of appearance should be a normal entry, not a flashback. It still seems to me that this should be a flashback, since the event portrayed occurred earlier for the relevant characters, but I want to find out if there's an official MCP policy on this. 

2. The second story in J2 #7 consists of a series of panels comparing May & MJ with Wild Thing & Elektra. A few scenes seem to show events and characters that have never before been shown in MC-2 (for example, Bullseye), but most of the scenes are very generic. Do you think any or all of these panels should be added to character listings? 

3. In a similar vein, there are a series of panels in Spider-Girl #58 in which May is thinking about her father while battling his alternate earth counterpart (pages 11 & 13). The scenes seem pretty generic, should they be added to Peter and May's listings? 


And now the updates: 

------------------------------ 

Angry Eagle 
JTWO 1/3 
JTWO 2/2 
*JTWO 7 
JTWO 11/2 
. . . 

Ant-Man/Scott Lang 
AN 5-FB (7:3) 
AN 1-FB 
*AN 2 
AN 3 
. . . 

*April (Team Spider) 
*SG 75 
*SG 76 
*SG 77 
*SG 78 

Black Tarantula/Fabian LeMuerto 
. . . 
SG 66 
*SG 72 
SG 75 
. . . 

*Blowtorch/Johnny Storm (Earth-9907) <-added label 

Brady, Meagyn 
SG 53 
*SG 55 
SG 67 
. . . 

*Brute/Benjamin J. Grimm (Earth-9907) <-added label 

Captain America/Steve Rogers 
*SG 32-FB (11:3) 
AN 7-FB (7:2-7:3) 
. . . 

*Captain America (Earth-9907) 
*AN 10-FB (12:1) 

*Carter, Peggy 
*SG 32-FB (11:2) 

*Carter, Sharon 
*SG 32-FB (11:3) 

Doc Magus/Dormagus 
*AN 3 (2:2-9:3) 
*AN 3 (10:2) ~ JTWO 3-FB (3:1) 
*AN 3 (14-15, 21) 
JTWO 4 
JTWO 12-FB 
. . . 

Doctor Strange 
*AN 3 (1-10:1) 
*AN 3 (10:2) ~ JTWO 3-FB (3:1) 
*AN 3 (14-15, 21) 
WT 0 
JTWO 12 
SG 83 
SG 84 
LHS 2 
LHS 4 
LHS 5 

Green Goblin/Norman Osborn 
SG 97-FB (10:2) 
*SG 44-FB-BTS (15:3) 
*SG 48-FB (6:2-6:3, 9:4) 
SG 49-FB (16:5-17) 
. . . 

*Green Goblin III/Norman "Normie" Osborn <-"Goblin" misspelled 
. . . 
SG 72 
*SG 73 
SG 74 
. . . 

*Haberstein, Lt. 
*SG 54 
*SG 55 
*SG 71 

Hawkeye/Clint Barton 
*AN 7-FB (7:2-8:3, 12:4-13, 17:2) 
AN 10 

*Hitler, Adolph (Earth-9907) 
*AN 10-FB (11:3) 

Human Torch/Johnny Storm 
. . . 
SG 58 
*SG 59 
SG 82 
. . . 

*Iron Cross/Tony Stark (Earth-9907) <-added label 

Iron Man/Tony Stark 
. . . 
SG 95-FB (9:4-9:5) 
*AN 7-FB (7:2-8:3, 12:4-13, 17:2-18) 
SG 95-FB (9:6-10:4) 
. . . 

J2/Zane Yama/Zane Marko 
. . . 
JTWO 3-FB (3:2) ~ AN 3 (13:4) 
*AN 3 (14:1, 16-17) 
JTWO 3-FB (4:1-4:2) ~ AN 3 (18:7-18:8) 
. . . 

Jameson, J. Jonah 
. . . 
SG 25 
*SG 29 
SG 30 
. . . 

Jarvis, Edwin 
*AN 7-FB (8, 12-13, 17:2-18) 
AN 1-FB 
. . . 

*Jarvis, Edwin (Earth-9907) <-added label 

*Juggernaut/Cain Marko <-added real name 

*June (Team Spider) 
*SG 75 
*SG 76 
*SG 78 

Kingpin/Wilson Fisk 
. . . 
SG 2 
*SG 8 
SG 17 
. . . 

Mister Nobody 
. . . 
SG 42 
*SG 43 
SG 61-BTS 
. . . 

>>Namor <- moved listing to "Sub-Mariner/Namor" 

*Parker, Peter (Earth-9907) <-added label 

*Pincer/Scott Lang (Earth-9907) <-added label 

Professor X/Charles Xavier 
*WT 5/2-FB (3) 
*JTWO 7-FB (4:1) 
*WT 5/2-FB (4:1) 

*Psi-Slayer/Franklin Richards (Earth-9907) <-added label 

*Red Skull (Earth-9907) 
*AN 10-FB (11:2-12:3) 


*Richards, Reed (Earth-9907) <-added label 

*S.S. Agent/John Walker (Earth-9907) <-added label 

*Sapristi, Maria (Earth-9907) <-added label 

Scarlet Witch/Wanda Maximoff 
*AN 7-FB (7:2-7:4, 12:4-13, 17:2-17:3) 
AN 8 
. . . 

Spider-Man/Peter Parker 
. . . 
SG 43 
*SG 44 
*SG 45 
SG 46 
. . . 
SG 71 
*SG 72 
SG 74 
. . . 

*Storm Trooper/Eric Masterson (Earth-9907) <-added label 

Stinger/Cassie Lang 
. . . 
AN 2 
*AN 3 (8-9) 
*AN 3 (10:2) ~ JTWO 3-FB (3:1) 
*AN 3 (11-12, 16:1, 17) 
*AN 3 (19:1-19:4) 
*AN 3 (19:5) ~ JTWO 3-FB (4:3) 
*AN 3 (20:3) ~ JTWO 3-FB (14:1) 
*AN 3 (20:4-22) 
JTWO 5 
. . . 

*Sub-Mariner/Namor <- listing moved from "Namor" 
FFIVE 5-FB (2:3) 
AN 5-FB (7:5) 
*AN 3 (4-10:1) 
*AN 3 (10:2) ~ JTWO 3-FB (3:1) 
*AN 3 (11:4, 16:2) 
*AN 3 (16:3) ~ JTWO 3-FB (3:3) 
*AN 3 (17:3-18:6) 
*AN 3 (20:3) ~ JTWO 3-FB (14:1) 
*AN 3 (20:4-20:5) 
JTWO 12 
SG 86 
LHS 5 

Thompson, Eugene "Flash" 
. . . 
SG 37 
*SG 39 
SG 52 
. . . 

Thunderstrike/Kevin Masterson 
. . . 
AN 2 
*AN 3 (6-9) 
*AN 3 (10:2) ~ JTWO 3-FB (3:1) 
*AN 3 (11:2, 14, 16:1, 17-18:5) 
*AN 3 (20:3) ~ JTWO 3-FB (14:1) 
*AN 3 (20:4-22) 
JTWO 5 
. . . 

*Von Doom, Victor (Earth-9907) <-added label 
*AN 10-FB (12:3-12:4) 
AN 11 

Watson-Parker, Mary Jane 
. . . 
SG 39 
*SG 40 
SG 41 
. . . 
SG 45 
*SG 47 
SG 48 
. . . 

Yama, Jimmy 
. . . 
SG 37 
*SG 38 
SG 39 
. . . 

*Zemo (Earth-9907) <-added label 

------------------------------ 

-Mike

Last edited by michaelyuri on 18 Jan 2007 03:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jan 2007 03:12 pm    
By Crazy Penguin

Quote: 
>>>
There was a plot in A-Next and Spider-Girl involving an alternate earth. I had originally listed alternate earth characters who are the counterpart of (and have the same name as) a well-known 616 character as "II", but I think for clarity it would be better to identify them specifically as "(Alternate Earth)". As far as I can tell, this world has never been assigned a universe number.  
<<<

The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Alternate Universes 2005 gave it a number in the MC2 universe entry. Here is the relevant extract: 


Quote: 
>>>
Earth's mightiest heroes, the Avengers, had been drawn into a conflict on another world (Earth-9907) where the Nazis had won World War II, and Victor von Doom had become the current dictator. 
<<<

MC2 itself is Earth-982.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jan 2007 03:26 pm    
By michaelyuri

Thanks! I checked the list of universes on Wikipedia, but somehow I missed it. I've replaced "Alternate Earth" in the above post with "Earth-9907".

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Posted: 17 Jan 2007 03:06 pm    Post subject: Need help identifying characters
By michaelyuri

I'm going back through and trying to tie up a few loose ends. None of these are particularly important, but I would like to figure them out for the sake of completeness. 

------------------------------ 

1. Avengers Mansion flashback: A-Next #7 page 7. 

Jarvis narrates this flashback in which a number of heroes are gathered at Avengers Mansion. 

The gathering includes "Reserve Members and Friends". I'm fairly confident of all but one of the heroes pictured. 

Panel 2: 
Clockwise around table: Captain America, Vision, Iron Man, Wasp, Giant Man, Hercules, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Firestar, Justice 

Standing at bottom of panel: ???, Tigra, Living Lightning 

Panel 4: 
From left to right: Vision, Iron Man, Wasp, Giant Man, Tigra, Hercules, Living Lightning, Hawkeye, ???, Firestar, Justice 

Who is the woman standing in the lower left of panel 2, who is presumably supposed to be (despite the differences in coloration) the same woman standing in the back right hand side of panel 4? 

My best guess is Talisman from Alpha Flight, but this is really a stab in the dark. Any other suggestions? 

------------------------------ 

2. Juggernaut flashbacks: Wild Thing #5/2 page 4, J2 #7 page 6 

These flashbacks tell of Juggernaut's MC-2 past in which he fell in love with Sachi Yama, quit his life of crime, and eventually joined the X-Men. Page 4, panel 2 of the second story in Wild Thing #5 and page 6, panel 1 of J2 #7 are two drawings of the X-Men when Juggernaut was a member. 

I recognize Juggernaut, Wolverine, and Siryn, but who are the other three? Since this is an MC-2 flashback, it's possible that some of these characters have never appeared in 616. Any idea who they might be? 

In J2 #7, page 7, one of them is referred to as "Hopper". Is this an existing character? Or a new one invented just for this flashback? 

------------------------------ 

3. Hero meeting at Avengers Mansion (Spider-Girl #58 pages 16-17) 

A large number of MC-2 heroes meet at Avengers Mansion. Pages 16-17 are a two page spread showing them. Most of them are obvious, but there are a few that I'm not sure about. 

First, the easy ones: 
On the left page: Darkdevil, Wild Thing, Tony Stark's Bodyguard (aka Jim Rhodes), Nova, Spider-Girl 

On the right page: Argo, Coal Tiger, Angry Eagle, Psilord, Thing, Freebooter, Ms. Fantastic, Jubilee, Big Brain (Mr. Fantastic), Human Torch, J2, Torque 

Now the characters whose heads are cut off at the edges of the pages: 
At the top of the left page: 
The first pair of legs (in black) are definitely Blacklight. She is recognizable from those rectangles on her shins. 
The second pair of legs (in red) doesn't give much to go by. My theory is that it is the Buzz. Spider-Girl #59 shows that he was present at the Mansion, so this seems to fit. Any other theories? 

At the top of the right page: 
Earth Sentry & Big Man. Oddly, this is Big Man's first non-villain appearance. 

Along the right edge: 
I think the figure in the cloak is supposed to be Doc Magus, and the red amulet is supposed to be the Eye of Agamotto, but it doesn't quite look right, so I'm not sure. Any thoughts on this one? 

The large sleaveless figure is Simian of the X-People. 

The figure in the bottom right-hand corner is a mystery. At first I thought it might be Spanner, because she is the only member of the X-People who isn't shown, and I think she's visible in the background of Spider-Girl #59. But the drawing looks to me like a man, not a woman. Also, the uniform doesn't look right. I'm stumped on this one. Any ideas? 

------------------------------ 

4. Shi'ar Imperial Guard (Last Planet Standing #1 pages 7, 17-19) 

In Last Planet Standing, the Shi'ar Imperial Guard battles Galactus. This one gave me a lot of trouble. Can anybody help with the characters I wasn't able to figure out? 

Page 7, panel 3: On the left side, behind Gladiator, I see Oracle, Starbolt, and Manta. Who is the fourth character whose head is shown? 

Page 7, panel 4: Who is the character amid the debris on the far right hand side? And the back of the head shown in this panel, is that Smasher? The skin color doesn't look right, but it might be him. 

Page 17, panel 1: I recognize Starbolt and Gladiator, but who are the other two? 

Page 18, panel 1: I recognize Smasher, Oracle, Flashfire, and Impulse, but who is the other person battling Dominas on the left hand side of the panel? 

This battle occurs in MC-2, so it's possible that some of these characters never appeared in the 616 Imperial Guard. 

------------------------------ 

Thanks for any help you can give with these identifications. 

-Mike

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jan 2007 04:21 pm    
By Arthur
Director

michaelyuri wrote 
>>>
Who is the woman standing in the lower left of panel 2, who is presumably supposed to be (despite the differences in coloration) the same woman standing in the back right hand side of panel 4?  
<<<

From the shape of the sweatband and her placement beside Tigra and Living Lightning in both panels (both of whom were on the Weat Coast team) I'd say Firebird.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jan 2007 06:26 am    
By michaelyuri

Thanks! That makes a lot of sense. 

Any thoughts on the other scenes?

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jan 2007 09:28 am    
By Arthur
Director

well regarding the Wild Thing and J2 scenes... 

The bald guy is likely Xavier himself (Xavier was able to walk at the time Juggs started living at the school in UX 412) 

One of them looks a bit like Wolfsbane in a transitional stage, but in 616 I don't think she was invoved with the group while Juggernaut was among them. 

And no Hopper that I am aware of.

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jan 2007 09:54 am    
By Somebody

Arthur wrote: 
>>>
(Xavier was able to walk at the time Juggs started living at the school in UX 412) 
<<<

That's well after the point at which MC2 comics start ignoring MU events though, no? [don't want to call it a divergence, because they ignore retcons from after DeFalco left the Spider-books as well]

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jan 2007 02:54 pm    
By michaelyuri

Well, the general rule of thumb is that anything published prior to the Gathering of Five also happened in the MC-2 past, and anything published after this point probably didn't happen in MC-2. There are exceptions though -- for example, Arana didn't appear until well after this point, but it has been established that she exists in MC-2. In this case, though, it doesn't seem relevant, since J2 #7 was published in 1999, which is a few years before UX 412. 

I suppose it could be Xavier. I didn't think it was him because the drawing was so muscular and also Wolverine was referred to as the team leader. But I suppose neither of these definitively eliminates Xavier. Also, I've noticed that the flashback in Wild Thing #5 could be read to imply that it's Xavier. The narration reads "Dad [Juggernaut] eventually saw the light -- made his peace with Xavier -- and even joined his stepbrother's team!" I originally assumed "his stepbrother's team" was just a general reference to the X-Men, but I suppose it could also mean the specific team on which Xavier was an active member. 

I think Wolfsbane may be right. In J2 #7, page 6, panel 2, a woman is visible in the background who could very well be Rahne in human form. 

This would make the tentative lineup: 
Wolverine, Juggernaut, Siryn, Wolfsbane, maybe Xavier, 
and one new character: Hopper. 

One more detail on Hopper -- he apparently speaks with a Yoda-like syntax. "Working as quickly as possible, I am. Almost completed, the dimensional jumpjack is."

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Jan 2007 03:13 pm    
By michaelyuri

michaelyuri wrote: 
>>>
The figure in the bottom right-hand corner is a mystery. At first I thought it might be Spanner, because she is the only member of the X-People who isn't shown, and I think she's visible in the background of Spider-Girl #59. But the drawing looks to me like a man, not a woman. Also, the uniform doesn't look right. I'm stumped on this one. Any ideas? 
<<<

I had another thought about this one. It could be Doom/Kristoff Vernard. 

He was last seen in Fantastic Five #5 when he announced his intention to join the team. He is next seen in Spider-Girl #86 wearing a blue Fantastic Five uniform. The uniform doesn't match perfectly -- in Spider-Girl #86 it's only black on top of the shoulders, in Spider-Girl #58 the upper arms are black as well -- but it's pretty close. 

-Mike

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Jan 2007 10:59 am    
By michaelyuri

Okay, here are some proposed corrections/additions based on both the comments above and my own further review. 

1. The individual that I was unable to identify in the A-Next flashback is Firebird. I had misidentified this individual as Talisman, so I have removed that entry. For some reason I already had an entry for Firebird, but was missing Firestar, so I have corrected this. 

2. Wolfsbane and Professor X have been proposed as likely identifications for two of the X-Men in the Juggernaut flashbacks, leaving Hopper as the only brand new character. It makes sense that the characters who weren't specifically named in the flashback would be existing characters. While reviewing these flashbacks, I realized that I had missed a number of X-Men appearances, so I have added these and I have also made a slight correction to the ordering of panels for Juggernaut. 

3. I had misidentified one of the heroes at Avengers Mansion as Spanner, but the drawing doesn't match, so I have removed this entry. Doc Magus was previously missing an entry, so this has been added. Also, I have suggested that the unidentified individual in the lower right corner is Doom/Kristoff Vernard. I think this is a decent match art-wise and makes sense plot-wise, so I have added an entry. 

4. Several of the Shi'ar Imperial Guard are still in need of identification. I have added an entry for Manta, who was missing. 


These identifications are still tentative -- additional suggestions & corrections are greatly appreciated. 

------------------------------ 

Angel 
*JTWO 7-FB (4:3) 
WT 5/2-FB (4:1) 
FFIVE 1-FB (8:2) 

Beast 
*JTWO 7-FB (4:3) 
WT 5/2-FB (4:1) 

*Colossus 
*JTWO 7-FB (4:4) 

Cyclops/Scott Summers 
*JTWO 7-FB (4:3) 
WT 5/2-FB (4:1) 
JTWO 7 
JTWO 11/2 
LHS 3 
LHS 4 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 

Doc Magus/Dormagus 
AN 3 (2:2-9:3) 
AN 3 (10:2) ~ JTWO 3-FB (3:1) 
AN 3 (14-15, 21) 
JTWO 4 
JTWO 12-FB 
JTWO 12 
*SG 58 
SG 71 
SG 83 
SG 84 
LHS 2 
LHS 3 
LHS 4 
LHS 5 

Doom/Kristoff Vernard 
AN 5-FB (7:3-7:4) 
AN 5 
FFIVE 5 
*SG 58 
SG 86 
SG 87 
SG 88 
LPS 1 
LPS 3 

*Firestar 
*AN 7-FB (7:2-7:4) 

*Iceman 
*JTWO 7-FB (4:3) 
*WT 5/2-FB (4:1) 

Juggernaut/Cain Marko 
WT 5/2-FB (3) 
*JTWO 7-FB (4:1-4:3) 
WT 5/2-FB (4:1) 
*JTWO 7-FB (4:4-8) 
JTWO 12-FB (10:4-11:2) 
JTWO 12 
WT 2/2 
WT 4/2 
WT 5/2 

*Manta 
*LPS 1 

Marvel Girl/Jean Grey 
*JTWO 7-FB (4:3) 
WT 5/2-FB (4:1) 

*Nightcrawler 
*JTWO 7-FB (4:4) 

Professor X/Charles Xavier 
WT 5/2-FB (3) 
JTWO 7-FB (4:1) 
WT 5/2-FB (4:1) 
*JTWO 7-FB (6-8) 

Spanner 
JTWO 1/3 
JTWO 2/2 
JTWO 7 
JTWO 11/2 
>>SG 58 <-mistake, remove this entry 
SG 59 
SG 67 

>>Talisman <-mistake, remove this entry 
>>AN 7-FB (7:2-7:4) 

*Wolfsbane 
*JTWO 7-FB (6-8) 

------------------------------ 

-Mike

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Posted: 24 Jan 2007 08:47 am    Post subject: More minor updates
By michaelyuri

I came across another MC-2 chronology at: 
http://www.comicboards.com/marvelguide/MC2Handbook/Chronology.html 

After cross-checking it against my chronology I've found some more entries that I was missing. 

------------------------------ 

*Baldwin, Madelyne Naylor 
*AN 1-FB 

Brady, Meagyn 
*SG 53-FB (2:4) 
SG 53 
SG 55 
SG 67 
SG 89 
SG 96 

Captain America/Steve Rogers 
SG 32-FB (11:3) 
*AN 2-FB (6:1) 
AN 7-FB (7:2-7:3) 
AN 10 
AN 11 
SG 58 
LHS 1 
LHS 2 
LHS 3 
LHS 4 
LHS 5 

*Franklin, Mattie 
*SG 49-FB (16:5,17:1, 18:1) 

Giant-Man 
*AN 2-FB (6:1) 
AN 7-FB (7:2-7:4) 

Green Goblin/Norman Osborn 
SG 97-FB (10:2) 
SG 44-FB-BTS (15:3) 
SG 48-FB (6:2-6:3, 9:4) 
*SG 49-FB (16:5-17:4) 
*SG 7/2-FB (4:1) 
*SG 49-FB (17:5) 
WI?2 105-FB (7:5) 
SG 49-FB (18-19:3) 

*Herd, Gregory 
*SG 49-FB (16:5, 18:1) 

Juggernaut/Cain Marko 
WT 5/2-FB (3) 
JTWO 7-FB (4:1-4:3) 
WT 5/2-FB (4:1) 
*AN 2-FB (6:2) 
JTWO 7-FB (4:4-8) 
JTWO 12-FB (10:4-11:2) 
JTWO 12 
WT 2/2 
WT 4/2 
WT 5/2 

Killerwatt 
*SG 9-FB (18:3-18:4) 
SG 9 
AN 12-FB 
AN 12 
SG 25 
LPS 1 
LPS 2 
LPS 3 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 

Kirby, Davida Jacqueline 
WI?2 105 
SG 1 
*SG 2 
SG 3 
SG 4 
. . . 

*Marko, Kurt 
*WT 5/2-FB (3:1) 

*Marko, Sharon Xavier 
*WT 5/2-FB (3:1) 

*Maxwell, Morris 
*SG 49-FB (16:5) 

Ruiz, Captain 
SG 1 
DARK 1 
*DARK 3 
SG 36 
SG 63 
SG 82 
SG 85 
SG 99 

Spider-Man/Peter Parker 
*SG 44-FB (8:2) 
*SG 1-FB (5:5-6:1) 
*SG 44-FB (8:6) 
SG 7/2-FB (2:4) 
*SG 1-FB (6:2) 
SG 10 
SG 11 
. . . 

*Thunderstrike/Eric Masterson 
*AN 2-FB (6:1) 

*Webb, Cassandra 
*SG 49-FB (16:5) 

Yama, Sachi 
*JTWO 7-FB (5:1-5:2) 
JTWO 1 
JTWO 2 
JTWO 4/2 
JTWO 5 
JTWO 5/2 
>>JTWO 7-FB <-moved to beginning of chronology 
SG 8 
JTWO 9 
JTWO 12 
SG 14 
WT 4/2 
WT 5/2 

Zamora, Talia 
JTWO 1 
JTWO 1/3 
JTWO 2 
*JTWO 3 
JTWO 3/3 
JTWO 4/2 
JTWO 7/3 
JTWO 8-FB 
JTWO 9 
JTWO 12 
WT 3/2 
WT 4/2 

------------------------------ 

-Mike

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Posted: 24 Jan 2007 08:58 am    
By michaelyuri

Oops - Madelyne Baldwin was already listed. 

-Mike

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Posted: 24 Jan 2007 04:43 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Michael, there's no need to reply to your own posts so quickly. If there have been no replies to your original post, you can simply edit it, rather than replying. 


watching: mst3k

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Posted: 25 Jan 2007 12:01 am    
By Col_Fury

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
watching: mst3k 
<<<

I'm watching that right now! "Radar Secret Service" in fact. 

MST3K is great. 


...that doesn't really have anything to do with anything. Sorry.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Thread 30

Posted: 01 Jan 2007 11:05 am    Post subject: Giant Size Hulk vol. 2 #1 (story #2)
By Kevin W.
Director

I know analysis of this story was already done by Frederic Krier, but as the 2nd story is a part of "Planet Hulk" I'd like to continue my quest to review every single chapter of Planet Hulk, and thus I'll do this quick analysis: 

Giant Size Hulk vol. 2 #1 (story #2) 
Written by Greg Pak 
Pencils by Aaron Lopresti 
Inks by Danny Miki 

Appearances: 

Hulk/Bruce Banner, Miek, Hiroim the Shamed, Elloe Kaifi, Korg, and "No-Name" (aka Brood #2 of 6) 

Synopsis: One night, inbetween Hulk vol. 3 #95 and 96. At a campsite for the escaped gladiators and slaves, Hulk and his companions are resting for the night. On the ground asleep in one panel, we see Miek, Korg, "No Name", and Elloe Kaifi. Standing in the background of one panel, we see Hiroim standing guard over the campsite. 

As Hulk sleeps, he has a dream of Bruce Banner, who is trying to retake control of their body, and transform the Hulk back to Banner. Banner manages to regain control for one instant, and Miek wakes up to momentarily see Banner sitting next to him. Miek rubs his eyes in disbelief, and when he looks again, it's the Hulk sitting next to him. Back inside Hulk's mind, we see that the Hulk has defeated Banner, and will remain in control of their body for some time to come. 

References: None. The dream references events from when Hulk was on Jarella's world, and his relationship to the other Marvel superheroes, but since this is a dream, (and a distorted view of events) there's nothing here that is new material. 

Thus, to be added to the MCP, (and I'm going to try to start posting these more, if I can figure this out...do you add the asterix next to the entries you just got done reviewing?): 


HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
H3 95 
*GSH2 1/2 

MIEK 
H3 95 
*GSH2 1/2 

HIROIM THE SHAMED 
H3 95 
*GSH 1/2 

ELLOE KAIFI 
H3 95 
*GSH 1/2 

KORG 
H3 95 
*GSH 1/2 

NO-NAME 
H3 95 
*GSH 1/2 

My analysis for H3 96-99 is coming soon!
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

Last edited by Kevin W. on 01 Jan 2007 10:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 01 Jan 2007 01:42 pm    
By Somebody

The whole story until Miek sees Banner is a dream surely, since we see (and, indeed, follow) Banner walking past Korg & co. It's just that the dream mirrors reality until Banner challenges Hulk himself. I'd strike all appearances bar Hulk/Banner and Miek.

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Posted: 01 Jan 2007 03:22 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Yeah, but the campsite we see when Banner is walking around, (obviously the Hulk is asleep) mirror the real campsite. Look at pg. 2: Miek is next to Hulk and wakes up in this sequence, watching the Hulk sleep. He says, "Who you talking to, Two-Hands?" I just figured it wasn't that much of a stretch to imagine the the others we see lying down are actually indeed there lying down asleep, (while the Hulk dreams Banner is walking around next to them). 

I dunno, I suppose it's an optional placement to add the others besides Hulk and Miek.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 01 Jan 2007 03:42 pm    
By Somebody

Well, as I said, it "mirrors reality" at the start, so their relative positions are probably based on where the Hulk last saw them lying before nodding off, but they don't actually appear any more than Iron Man, Jarella, etc. BTS maybe, since where they really are/were affects where they appear in the dream I suppose, but kind of a trivial BTS.

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Posted: 01 Jan 2007 10:47 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

From my point of view, the campsite around the Hulk is a real, and it's just the figure of Banner that's a dream. He's a dream walking around amidst reality. 

Still, I suppose it's better to err on the side of caution...just like it's kind of trivial to give them a BTS entry, it's also trivial to give them a regular MCP listing if it's somewhat unclear as to their existence in this issue, (even though we know that they were there at that campsite...they just may or may not be in this issue).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 31

Posted: 31 Jul 2006 06:19 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for Hulk vol. 3 #92-95
By Kevin W.
Director

Hulk vol. 3 #92-95: 
Written by Greg Pak 
Drawn by Various Artists 

This is the start of the Planet Hulk yearlong story arc, (which has been divided up into separate chapters). Issues #92-95 is Planet Hulk: Exile. As this storyline takes place on a whole other planet, time may not match the 24 hour cycle of Earthso you probably dont have to worry about timeline considerations as much. 

The recent Planet Hulk: Gladiator Guidebook contains detailed info on this world, some of which Ive thrown into this analysis, (mostly in the form of giving the characters real names, for MCP listing). 

Hulk vol. 2 #92 
Planet Hulk: Exile Pt. 1 
Written by Greg Pak 
Drawn by Carlo Pagulayan 

Appearances: Hulk, (Bruce Banner) 

New Characters: 

Miek, (a Native of the planet Sakaar) 
The Lord Emperor of Sakaar aka The Red King, (real name Angmo II) 
Lieutenant, (real name Caiera the Oldstrongshes the personal bodyguard of the Emperor). 
The Governor of Wukar, (real name Denebo Arue III) 
Primus Vand, (the Gladiator Trainer) 
And a Deaths Head robot, (yes, the same type of creature we see in Amazing Fantasy Vol. 2 #16-20the Emperor has several of these units under his command). 

Also appearing, (in a video recording). 
Mr. Fantastic, (Reed Richards) 
Blackbolt 
Iron Man, (Tony Stark) 
Dr. Strange, (Stephen Strange) 

Synopsis: The story picks up right where we left off at the end of last issue, with the Hulks spaceship rocketing off through space. Events in this issue are spread over what may be a few days. 

Pg. 1: Hulk is on board the spaceship, which is rocketing away from Earth, listening to a message from the Illuminati. Figuring out theyve betrayed him, the Hulk goes into a rampage, and breaks open the side of the ship. He stares out the hole and sees that his ship is entering a wormhole. 

Pgs. 2-7: The ship comes out the other end of the wormhole, ending up in the atmosphere of the Planet Sakaar. Hulk notices one of the monitor screens on board the ship is beeping an emergency signal, and the monitor screen reports, Navigation Error! (Hulk hasnt ended up on the planet Reed and the others originally chose for him). The ship crashes on the ground, and the Hulk emerges. We are told he has been weakened by the energy draining effects of the wormhole. 

One of the species on this planet, a race of bug-like creatures, (an indigenous race called the Natives); begin to swarm over the ship, scavenging it for parts. Hulk fights against these bugs, unable to understand them, when the fight is interrupted by another species native to the planet, (this one more humanoid in appearance, and which is called the Imperials). The Imperials shoot the Hulk with a talkbot nanovirus, which allows Hulk to understand the language the species on this planet speak in. The Imperials declare they are confiscating the ship for themselves, and order the Hulk to bow down. When Hulk refuses, they blast him unconscious. 

Pg. 8: This could be a few days later, depending on how long the Hulk was unconscious. Hulk wakes up to find hes in chains, (which he cant break) and being sold on a slave block along with a few Natives, (one of which is a black outcast Native whom we learn is named Miek). Hulk and the Natives are sold to Primus Vand, a manager and trainer for the Gladiator Arena. 

Pgs. 9-20: This could be the same day, or could be a day or two later. The Hulk has been placed in a steel cage, from which he breaks free, only to find hes in the middle of a Gladiator Arena. 

As the Emperor, the Governor of the province, and the Emperors personal bodyguard, (Lieutenant Caiera) watch in the stands, (along with a full crowd of Imperials) the Hulk and the bugs have to fight against a Great Devil Corker, (a giant monster native to the planet). The Hulk kills it with ease. Miek points out that the Red King is watching overhead, and will probably free them from slavery for surviving in battle. The Hulk, (now that he knows who is in charge) attacks the Emperor, but is beaten back. The Emperor is amused, and puts on power armor and leaps into battle, slashing the Hulk across the face with a sword. The two do battle, and the Hulk eventually gets the upper hand and slashes the Emperors face in return. The Lieutenant and a Deaths Head unit jump in to protect the Emperor, and the Hulk is knocked unconscious again. The Emperor decides to send the Hulk to The Maw. 

Pgs. 21-22: This is the next day: The Hulk wakes up to find hes on a prisoner transport with Miek and the other Natives. Looking through the window of the transport, he sees they are being taken into The Maw, (a lava pit arena which serves as a torture/training place for gladiators). 

References: We later learn that the Banner persona of the Hulk has gone into retreat inside the Hulks head, so thats why Hulk doesnt revert to Banner when he gets knocked unconscious. We later learn, (as shown in the recent Giant Size Hulk #1) that Banner occasionally tries to retake control of the body, (reverting it to the form of Bruce Banner), but the Hulk fights against it, and apparently remains in control for the duration of this storyline. 

Hulk vol. 2 #93 
Planet Hulk: Exile Pt. 2 
Written by Greg Pak 
Drawn by Carlo Pagulayan 

Appearances: 

Hulk, (Bruce Banner) 
Miek 
The Red King, (real name Angmo II) 
Lieutenant, (real name Caiera the Oldstrong). 
Primus Vand 

New Characters: 

Korg, (a member of the rock hide race of Kronans, now a slave of the Empire) 
Ronan Kaifi, (a former senator who has been reduced to slave status for disagreeing with the Emperors policies). 
Elloe Kaifi, (his daughter, also reduced to slave status) 
Lavin Skee, (the Kaifi family bodyguard, also reduced to slave status) 
Hiroim the Shamed, (a Shadow Warrior reduced to slave statusnote: The Shadow Warriors are the other race indigenous to this planet, besides the Natives and the Imperials. Caiera the Oldstrong is a Shadow Warrior as well) 
Brood Creature #2 of 6, (aka No-Name, now a slave of the Empire) 
Margus, (deceased brother of Korg. We see him here as a zombie of sorts). 
Arch-E-5912, (a communications robot fighting for his "life" in the Maw) 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-13: Continues right where we left off last issue. While rebels in the remote corners of the planet discuss the Hulks cutting the Emperors cheek, the Hulk himself is fighting for his life against a lava monster in the Maw. He defeats the monster, but then him and Miek and the other slave Natives are taken into another arena, where they meet up with other gladiators in training. Primus Vand, (the Gladiator Trainer in charge of the Maw) orders all of the slaves to start killing each other, until there is only 7 left. One of the new gladiators, Ronin Kaifi, protests, demanding to speak to the Emperor, but Primus Vand kills him. The rest start fighting, until the 7 remaining include the Hulk and Miek, along with new characters Korg, Lavin Skee, Elloe Kaifi, Hiroim, and Brood #2 of 6. 

The seven are locked up for the night, and they get to know each other, and determine they should work together from here on out, if they are going to survive. 

Pgs. 14-16: The Next Day: The 7 Gladiators are put to their final test: They have to face Korgs brothers, (other Kronans who ended up on this planet with Korg, but who have been killed and brought back as mindless drones to be used by Primus). Korg is hesitant to strike at his brothers, but Hulk snaps some sense into him. They defeat the other Kronans. 

Pgs. 17-23: A few days later: The 7 Gladiators have graduated from the Maw, and are now being put to their first battle: They are transported to a Imperial Farming community which is under attack by Wildebots, (alien feral robots that pillage the countryside-a growing menace to the Empire). The Hulk and his companions slaughter the Wildebots easily enough. A pleasure barge floats overhead, (home to the aristocrat class of the Imperials). After defeated the Wildebots, the Hulk and his companions are invited on board for a feast, and treated like guests of honor. Also on board is Lieutenant Caiera, whos spying on the Hulk. She calls up the Red King and tells him that the Hulk has survived the Maw and is growing in popularity. 

Just then, rebels burst onto the ship, and ask the Hulk to join the resistance against the Emperor! 

References: 

Pg. 1: One of the rebels who is discussing the Hulk says, The Emperor entered the arena yesterday to slash the cheek of a slave who offended him. So that puts this issue, (and I would believe pgs. 21 and 22 of last issue) as happening the day after pgs. 9-20 of last issue. 

Pg. 18: The Hulk is discussing his home world Earth with Miek. The Brood #2 of 6 overhears and says about Earth, (and about the Hulk): His people. Ive eaten a few. Individually, theyre practically defenseless. But with their machines, and their heroes, they can overcome considerable challenges. 

The Hulk responds, Their machines and heroes wont save them. (Yes, hes still pissed at the Illuminati). 


Anyway, this shows that the Brood #2 is one of the Brood that has attacked Earth at some point. If someone who knows the Broods history of attacks on Earth, (I wouldnt know) maybe they could take a guess as to when Brood #2 of 6, (aka No-Name) has been to Earth? 

Also on pg. 18: A Gladiator Announcer is broadcasting the start of the Hulks battle against the Wildebots, and he narrates the following to the spectators: Last week, the fierce Green Gladiator earned his first wound from the Emperor himself. So that puts pgs. 9-20 of Issue #92 as having happened last week. 

Hulk vol. 2 #94 
Planet Hulk: Exile Pt. 3 
Written by Greg Pak 
Drawn by Carlo Pagulayan 
Flashback sequences drawn by Michael Avon Oeming, Alex Nino, and Marshall Rogers. 

Appearances: 

Hulk, (Bruce Banner) 
Miek 
Lieutenant, (real name Caiera the Oldstrong). 
Primus Vand 
Korg 
Elloe Kaifi 
Lavin Skee 
Hiroim the Shamed 
Brood Creature #2 of 6, (aka No-Name) 
Silver Surfer, (Norrin Radd) 

Also in flashback, besides Korg, we possibly see his brother Margus, (but since all Kronans look alike, it's hard to say). Details below... 

Synopsis: 

Pgs. 1-8: Picks up right where we left off last issue. The rebels again ask Hulk to join their resistance. Elloe agrees, and tries to convince Hulk to join. Hulk declines, saying hes done giving help to those who ask for it, (because hell always be betrayed in the end). A squad of Deaths Head units breaks in and kills or captures all of the rebels. They also haul off Elloe for siding with the rebels. The rest of the gladiators sided with Hulk and didnt join the rebels. Later on, as the gladiators are being escorted to their bedchambers, Hulk enters his room to find Lt. Caiera there. She offers to buy the Hulk, and take him away to a distant, isolated land where Hulk can live in peace alone, (she wants to get Hulk out of the public eye). Hulk refuses, saying hes not falling for any sort of offer again. 

Pgs. 9-23: The Next Day: In the imperial crown city, Hulk and the other gladiators march into the arena. The arena announcer explains the rules to the gladiators and to the fans: Any gladiator who survives three rounds is given amnesty and becomes a citizen of the empire. Just as they get into the middle of the arena, one of the Empires flying battleships comes by overhead and drops a deathfire bomb on the Gladiators. Hulk catches it and blows it up before it can hit the ground, (thus, sparing his fellow gladiators). Then, the 2nd challenge begins: Deaths Head guards start marching into the arena and attacking the heroes. With the Hulks help, (hes been wounded by the bomb, but still kicking) the Deaths Head guards are defeated. Theyve completed two challenges and lived, but the third and final challenge will be held off till tomorrow. 

That night, Lavin Skee unexpectedly dies of his wounds suffered in the arena earlier that day. The others start to wonder if they are next to die, but to encourage each other; they start telling tales of experiences theyve survived before now. After finishing the tales, Hiroim proposes that they become Warbound. They each take an oath to fight beside each other as brothers and sisters till their dying days. 

Meanwhile, Lt. Caiera checks on the third and final challenge the gladiators will face tomorrow: In another cell is the Silver Savage, (yes, its the Surfer, whos been subjugated thanks to an obedience disk). 

References: 

This issue has the following flashbacks: 

Pgs. 16-17: FB-Brood #2, (aka No-Name) relates how she arrived on this world: She narrates, When invaders came to our world, the Queen sent us after them, deep into the catacombs below the throne city. But in the twisted tunnels, there lived creatures more fearsome than we. Is this a reference to an old X-men storyline? Brood #2 relates how a monster in the catacombs beneath the Brood throne world swallowed her and her sisters, but then relates how a blinding light obliterated her home world, and turned the monster that swallowed her into a crystal. She then floated in space inside the body of the crystallized monster, until the dead beast fell into the wormhole and ended up here on Sakaar. 

Ill break the FB down even farther, though I suspect much of this is stuff weve seen before somewhere: 

16p1: A generic shot of the Broods home world. 

16p2: A shot of Brood #2 and her sisters fighting the monster in the catacombs. 

16p3: A close up on the monsters face. 

16p4: A blinding light fills the tunnel. 

17p1: The light hits the monster and the Brood. 

17p2: A shot of the Brood now trapped inside the belly of the now crystallized monster. 

17p3: A shot of the Broods Home world being destroyed. 

17p4: A panel showing the Brood trapped in the crystallized monster floating through space. 

17p5: A close up on Brood #2 inside the belly of the monster, as they float through space. 

18-19: FB-In this flashback, Korg relates how he and his fellow Kronans flew to invade Earth, but upon arriving there were attacked by Thor. The Kronans figured that everyone on this planet was as mighty as Thor, and so their fleet made a hasty retreat. This is a Silver Age tale, no doubt, but I dont know what issue it appeared in. Ill break this flashback down even further. 

18p1: A panel of the Kronan Fleet flying to Earth. 

18p2: A shot of a young Korg ripping a tree out of the ground on Earth, (showing that this world will be easy to conquer, I guess). 

18p3: A shot of Thor leaping into battle against the Kronans. 

18p4: Thor bashing the Kronans up. 

18p5: Thor ripping open a cage, which the Kronans tried to keep him imprisoned inside of. 

18p6: Thor bashing the Kronans Mechano Warbot which they dispatched to attack Thor. 

19p1: Thor watches as the Kronan fleet leaves the Earth. 

19p2: A panel showing Korg and the others on board their spaceship, discussing how they thought everyone on the planet Earth must be as strong as Thor. 

19p3: Another panel showing Thor striking a heroic pose. 

19p4: Thor holds up a rock-a piece that broke off one of the Kronans, (I guess pondering if the Kronans will ever return to Earth) 

Pg. 20: FB-Hulk relates how he defeated his greatest enemy: Bruce Banner. Its a distorted view of history somewhat, with Hulk saying that Banner tried to kill Hulk with the original Gamma Bomb, but the Hulk survived and became stronger. This is less of a flashback and more of a montage of generic shots from Hulks history: 

20p1: A generic shot of Marvel superheroes, (Hulk relates how they all fear him). 

20p2: A close up of Banners face. 

20p3: A shot of Banner building the Gamma Bomb. 

20p4: A shot of the Gamma Bomb now moved out onto the testing range. 

20p5: The classic shot of Banner being caught in the explosion. 

20p6: A generic panel of the Grey skinned Hulk. 

20p7: A generic panel of regular Green Skin Hulk, (the Hulk narrates that hes just become stronger since Banner tried to kill him with that Gamma Bomb). 

Hulk vol. 2 #94 
Planet Hulk: Exile Pt. 3 
Written by Greg Pak 
Drawn by Carlo Pagulayan 
Flashback sequence by Marshall Rogers 

Appearances: 

Hulk, (Bruce Banner) 
Miek 
The Red King, (real name Angmo II) 
Lieutenant, (real name Caiera the Oldstrong). 
Primus Vand 
Korg 
Elloe Kaifi 
Hiroim the Shamed 
Brood Creature #2 of 6, (aka No-Name) 
Silver Surfer, (Norrin Radd) 

Synopsis: Picks up right where we left off last issue. 

Pgs. 1-4p1: Lt. Caiera notices that the Silver Surfer looks exactly like how the Sakaarson is supposed to look like, (the Sakaarson is a figure of legend on this world, whos supposed to bring peace and harmony or something like that). Caiera asks where the Surfer comes from, and he tells the basic story of Galactus and the Surfer, along with how he came to this world, (more details below in the Reference section). 

4p2-22: The Next Day: Hulk and the others march into the gladiator arena to face their final challenge. When they see its the Silver Surfer, Hulk thinks hes found a friend, but an obedience disk is controlling the Surfer, and so he attacks. The Hulk and the others barely manage to defeat the Surfer and the Hulk breaks the obedience disk on the Surfer. 

At first, they think theyve won their freedom, but the Red King has a final challenge for the Hulk. Lt. Caiera marches a group of rebels in chains out onto the field, and among them is Elloe Kaifi, their former teammate. Lt. Caiera orders them to kill the rebels to prove their loyalty. Hulk refuses to kill her, so Primus Vand activates their obedience disks, filling the gladiators with pain. But then the Silver Surfer activates his Cosmic Power, (which he couldnt before, because of the obedience disk) and he zaps every obedience disk in the arena. Slaves and gladiators alike are suddenly free, and they break down the arena and march into the nearby wilderness. A short time later in the woods, the Surfer and the Hulk shake hands in friendship, but Hulk decides to stay on this planet, while Surfer takes off for the stars once more. Having now escaped the arena, the seeds of revolution have begun. 

References: In the what has come before now page at the front of the issue, there is a notation which reads, The following events take place prior to Annihilation: Silver Surfer. 

Pgs. 2-3: FB-On these two pages, the Surfer explains to Lt. Caiera where he comes from, and how he ended up on the planet Sakaar. Ill break it down as follows: 

2p1: A generic shot of Norrin Radds home world, the people going about their daily lives. 

2p2: A generic shot of Norrin Radd walking around. He narrates that while his world is a utopia, he has fantasies of living in the distant past on his world, wherein people fought and struggled for their lives. 

2p3: A shot of Norrin Radd on a tour inside a museum on his world, seeing his worlds savage past. 

2p4: The classic shot of Galactus transforming Norrin Radd into the Surfer. 

2p5: A shot of the Surfer approaching the wormhole which leads to the Planet Sakaar, (from here on out, were in recent time period). 

2p6: Close up on Norrins eyes. He narrates that he feels drawn to the wormhole, and thinks it will provide the answer to an old longing he feels in his soul. 

3p1: The Surfer awaken in a prison cell on Sakaar, (the wormhole portal drained him, just like it did the Hulk). 

3p2: Deaths Head guards hold the weakened Surfer down and implant an obedience disk onto his skin. 

3p3: A panel of the Surfer standing in the arena. 

3p4: A panel of the Surfer fighting in the arena. Hes found the bloody struggle for survival that he wanted all those years ago, and he loathes himself for having wanted this. 

3p5: With this panel, the images come back to the present day, with the Surfer finishing his story for Caiera. 

Thats it for now. Next up is my review for Daredevil v2 #82-87.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

Last edited by Kevin W. on 01 Jan 2007 12:26 pm; edited 4 times in total

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I'm pretty sure the Brood flashback is from Uncanny X-Men #166 ... and the Thor flashback is from Journey into Mystery #83, no? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Aug 2006 05:41 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Judging from the description here, the Surfer flashbacks (Norrin walking around reminiscing, Norrin seeing historical scenes in the Museum of Antiquity) seem to repeat scenes from SS 1-FB. 

-Sean

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Posted: 01 Aug 2006 06:49 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
and the Thor flashback is from Journey into Mystery #83, no? 
<<<

Yes, but the Kronan who rips the tree out is Gorr, not Korg, in JIM 83. A few panels in this flashback are new and work into JIM 83 (and other flashbacks) thusly: 

INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #94  FB (18p1) 
One day. The Kronan fleet flies to earth. May. 
Gorr 
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #83 (1p2-3p2) 
Probably the same day as H3 94-FB (18p1). It is shortly after T 415 FB (9-10). The Kronians land on earth in Norway and discover they have great strength. A fisherman spies the aliens and reports on them when he returns to town. Vacationing Don Blake overhears the fishermans tale. Green grass and trees in Norway. May. 
Thor (as Don Blake), Gorr 

JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #83 (3p3-3p8) 
The day after JIM 83 (1-3). Blake goes to the area described by the fisherman and spies the Kronians. When the aliens detect his presence, Blake runs toward a cave to hide. Green grass and trees in Norway. May. 
Don Blake, Gorr, [Odin] 
MIGHTY THOR #479  FB (14p5) 
The same day as JIM 83 (3p3-3p8). Blake stands at the entrance to the cave. May. 
Don Blake, [Odin] 
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #83 (3p9-4p4) 
The same day as T 479-FB (14p5). Blake enters the cave and finds a secret chamber, wherein lies an ancient cane. May. 
Don Blake, [Odin] 
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #84  FB (2p1) 
The same day as JIM 83 (3-4). It is many months before JIM 89. Blake reaches for the cane. May. 
Don Blake, [Odin] 
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #83 (4p5-4p8) 
The same day as JIM 84-FB (2p1). Blake uses the cane to try to move a boulder. Unable to move the stone, he strikes it with the cane. May. 
Don Blake, [Odin] 
MIGHTY THOR #479  FB (15p1) 
The same day as JIM 83 (4p5-4p8). Odin uses his magic to snatch away Blakes physical body and freeze it in time. He releases the spirit of Thor. May. 
Don Blake, Odin 
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #83 (5) 
The same day as T 479-FB (15p1). Thor materializes with his own memories replaced by those of Don Blake. Thinking himself Blake, he realizes hes become Thor when he reads the inscription on the hammer that was once the cane. May. 
Thor, [Odin] 
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #83 (1p1) 
The same day as JIM 83 (5). Thor declares his invincibility. May. 
Thor, [Odin] 
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #83 (6-8p5) 
The same day as JIM 83 (1p1). Thor uses his strength to remove the boulder and exits the back of the cave. When he lets go of the hammer for sixty seconds, he reverts to normal human form. Grasping the hammer and turning back into Thor, he tests the hammer by throwing it at a tree, splitting the tree in half. Green grass and trees in Norway. May. 
Thor, [Odin] 
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #84  FB (2p3) 
The same day as JIM 83 (6-8). As the hammer returns to him, Thor declares that nothing can harm the hammer. Green grass in Norway. May. 
Thor, [Odin] 
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #83 (8p6-8p8) 
The same day as JIM 84-FB (2p3). Thor stamps the hammers handle twice on the ground and discovers he can create rain or snow. Green grass in Norway. May. 
Thor, [Odin] 
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #89  FB (3p4-3p5) 
The same day as JIM 83 (8p6-8p8). The rain turns into a raging thunderstorm. Thor swears to use his power to fight evil. May. 
Thor, Odin 
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #83 (8p9-11p1) 
The same day as JIM 89-FB (3p4-3p5). The storm becomes a tornado before Thor stops it by stamping the hammers handle thrice on the ground. He discovers that stamping the hammer once reverts him to Don Blake. NATO forces try to stop the Kronians to no avail. Thor discovers he can use the hammer to fly as he speeds to earths defense. The Kronians see him approach. Green grass and trees in Norway. May. 
Thor, Gorr 
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #84  FB (2p4-2p5) 
The same day as JIM 83 (8-11). Thor streaks into the group of Kronians and starts bashing them. May. 
Thor, Gorr 
MIGHTY THOR #479  FB (15p4-16p1) 
The same day as JIM 84-FB (2p4-2p5). As Thors assault sends some Kronians flying, Odin takes Don Blakes original body to Mount Wundagore, where he discretely discovers it inhabited by Herbert Wyndham, the High Evolutionary, and his New Men. Wyndham has been there for decades. May. 
Thor, Odin, High Evolutionary, /New Men/ 
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #83 (11p2-13p5) 
The same day as T 479-FB (15p4). Thor continues his attack and is trapped by the Kronians. Thor escapes the trap and defeats the aliens mechano-monster. The Kronians retreat and take off for space. May. 
Thor, Gorr 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #94  FB (19p2-19p4) 
The same day as T 479-FB (15-16). Aboard the fleeing spaceship, the Kronans discuss their impression of Thor-like earthlings. Thor holds up a rocky piece that broke off one of the Kronans and wonders if they will return. May. 
Thor, Gorr 
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #83 (13p6) 
The same day as H3 94-FB (19p2-19p4). As NATO forces arrive, Thor stamps his hammer on the ground. Green grass in Norway. May. 
Thor 
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #84  FB (2p6-2p7) 
The same day as JIM 83 (11-13). Thor reverts to human form and again vows to use his power for justice. Green grass and trees in Norway. May. 
Thor 
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #83 (13p7-13p8) 
The same day as JIM 84-FB (2p6-2p7). NATO forces see the invaders fly away. Blake decides to return to the states. Green grass and trees in Norway. May. 
Thor (as Don Blake) 
MIGHTY THOR #479  FB (16p2-16p4) 
The same night as JIM 83 (13p7-13p8). Odin appears to Wyndham in a dream and warns him away from a part of Wundagore Mountain into which he places the frozen body of Don Blake. Odin refashions this area to look just like the Norwegian cave from which is snatched Blake. May. 
Don Blake, Odin, High Evolutionary (as Herbert Wyndham) 
MIGHTY THOR #483  FB (19p2-19p6) 
The same night as T 479-FB (16p2-16p4). Sigyn discretely watches as Odin leaves Blake in the refashioned cave. Seeking revenge on Odin for imprisoning her husband Loki in a tree, Sigyn uses a spell to try to steal Blakes body, but she inadvertently destroys it. To cover her tracks, she creates a doppelganger of Blake and leaves the construct in the Wundagore cave. May. 
Don Blake, Odin, Sigyn, Don Blake Construct 


BTW, Kevin, thanks for the analysis. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Aug 2006 10:10 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Yes, but the Kronan who rips the tree out is Gorr, not Korg, in JIM 83. 
<<<

Well, to be fair, I can't say with 100% certainty that the Kronan ripping out the tree in that panel is Korg. The narrative given by Korg in that panel reads: "I was a young brick. Strong and wild. Ready to conquer." And we see an image of a Kronan ripping a tree out of the ground. That's what led me to believe it was Korg in the panel.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 02 Aug 2006 05:49 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

If Gorr and Korg are two different individuals, then I'd like to figure out in which segments of the above sequence of events Korg appears.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Aug 2006 09:32 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Why would they not be two different individuals? Having not read the original Thor story in question, why would it not be concievable for 2, (or more) Kronans to rip trees out of the ground upon arrival on Earth? The flashback in H3 #94 doesn't designate which Kronan is which, it simply designates that Korg was among the Kronans that Thor battled with. 

But here, I'll break the sequence down a bit further, if it helps: 

18p1: The Kronan Fleet flying to Earth. 

18p2: A Kronan ripping a tree out of the ground, (I'm led to believe it's Korg, but could be another). 

18p3: Thor leaping into battle against the Kronans. One of the Kronans yells out, "Do not slay him! He must be captured, and studied!" It doesn't specify which Kronan is giving out those orders. 

18p4: Thor bashing the Kronans up. 

18p5: Thor ripping open a cage, which the Kronans tried to keep him imprisoned inside of. No Kronan's visible specifically in this panel. 

18p6: Thor bashing the Kronans Mechano Warbot which they dispatched to attack Thor. No Kronans visible specifically in this panel. 

19p1: Thor watches as the Kronan fleet leaves the Earth. The spaceships are visible, but not individual Kronans. 

19p2: A panel showing the Kronans on board their spaceship, discussing how they thought everyone on the planet Earth must be as strong as Thor. It doesn't specify which Kronan is which. 

19p3-19p4: No Kronans in these panels. 

I should also note, Korg's brother Margus, (one of the "zombie" Kronans the gladiators had to battle as a test in the Maw) was probably also a part of the attack on Earth, as Korg starts his narration by saying, "My brothers and I had flown to a small world." I don't know in what sense Korg is using the term "brothers" but he also notes that Margus is his "brother", so I believe it makes sense that Margus was with him on that expedition to Earth. 

...I guess I should add Margus to "appearances" section above, since his name is mentioned by Korg, (and I try to include the names of all characters given, even though it's a throwaway character). 

I still don't know what trip to Earth "Brood #2 of 6" is referring to when she states that she's eaten a few Earth people.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 03 Aug 2006 06:10 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

It sounds like we can take any given scene in which a group of Kronans appears and say that Korg is there. Thanks, Kevin.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Jan 2007 12:25 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

I'm adding one small character to this analysis in the "Appearances" section above: 

Arch-E-5912, a communications robot, (think "C3-P0" with a bit more of a cocky attitude) was a background character without a name when he first appeared in H3 #93. He was in "the Maw" fleeing for his life while Hulk battled the lava monster there, (while in training to be a gladiator). Since that brief appearance, he's worked his way into the plot of the story in the "Planet Hulk: Anarchy" and "Planet Hulk: Allegiance" storylines, and has been given a name. As such, he should be listed for his first appearance here in this story arc. 

I'm also going to go ahead and list all appearances for MCP format here in this post, (by the way, I'm using the abbreviation "NA:I" to stand for "New Avengers: Illuminati" unless someone has a better way to list it for the purposes of the MCP): 

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
H3 91 
*H3 92 
*H3 93 
*H3 94 
*H3 95 

DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 
NA:I 1 
*H3 92-FB 

BLACK BOLT/BLACKANTOR BOLTAGON 
NA:I 1 
*H3 92-FB 

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS 
NA:I 1 
*H3 92-FB 

IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK 
NA:I 1 
*H3 92-FB 

MIEK 
*H3 92 
*H3 93 
*H3 94 
*H3 95 

RED KING/ANGMO II 
*H3 92 
*H3 93 
*H3 95 

CAIERA THE OLDSTRONG 
*H3 92 
*H3 93 
*H3 94 
*H3 95 

DENEBO ARUE III 
*H3 92 

PRIMUS VAND 
*H3 92 
*H3 93 
*H3 94 
*H3 95 

KORG 
*JIM 83 
*H3 94-FB 
*H3 93 
*H3 94 
*H3 95 

ELLOE KAIFI 
*H3 93 
*H3 94 
*H3 95 

RONAN KAIFI 
*H3 93 

LAVIN SKEE 
*H3 93 
*H3 94 

HIROIM THE SHAMED 
*H3 93 
*H3 94 
*H3 95 

NO-NAME/BROOD #2 OF 6 
*UXM 166 
*H3 94-FB 
*H3 93 
*H3 94 
*H3 95 

MARGUS 
*JIM 83 
*H3 94-FB 
*H3 93 

ARCH-E-5912 
*H3 93 

SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD 
*H3 95-FB 
*H3 94 
*H3 95 

Question: Should Black Bolt, Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, and Dr. Strange get a BTS listing for H3 91? At the end of that issue, the Nick Fury LMD is seen reporting to somebody that they have successfully launched the Hulk into outer space, away from the Earth. We don't see exactly who the Fury LMD is reporting to, but since we know from "New Avengers: the Illuminati" that this was a plot by the four superheroes, isn't it feasible that the Fury LMD is reporting to them? Thus, a BTS listing for the four heroes? 

Does somebody want to double check and make sure I did these entries right? Does Korg get a BTS entry for Journey into Mystery #83, and No-Name get a BTS entry for Uncanny X-Men #166? Not sure how that works, when you see a bunch of Kronians in JIM 83, and we later find out that Korg was one of them...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

Last edited by Kevin W. on 01 Jan 2007 03:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 01 Jan 2007 01:18 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Kevin W. wrote: 
Question: Should Black Bolt, Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, and Dr. Strange get a BTS listing for H3 91? At the end of that issue, the Nick Fury LMD is seen reporting to somebody that they have successfully launched the Hulk into outer space, away from the Earth. We don't see exactly who the Fury LMD is reporting to, but since we know from "New Avengers: the Illuminati" that this was a plot by the four superheroes, isn't it feasible that the Fury LMD is reporting to them? Thus, a BTS listing for the four heroes? 


I'd like some assurances that it was speaking to all four of them, before we give them BTS listings. 


watching: auburn vs nebraska

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Posted: 01 Jan 2007 01:21 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'd be careful of calling that one-shot "NA:I 1" -- a five-issue "New Avengers: Illuminati" miniseries just launched. 

As for Korg and JIM 83, I'd say that we should give him a full-on appearance entry -- unless you want to assume that Korg was there, but was for some reason never glimpsed on-panel -- which seems silly. Surely he was ONE of those Kronians seen on-panel -- just because we don't know which one he was doesn't mean we should call his appearance "BTS". 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Jan 2007 01:54 pm    
By Somebody

Re: Korg, wouldn't you need to include Margus (his brother, whose near-mindless body Hulk smashes to bits using Korg in the second gladiator-training fight) in the JIM83 stuff too?

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Posted: 01 Jan 2007 03:32 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I'd be careful of calling that one-shot "NA:I 1" -- a five-issue "New Avengers: Illuminati" miniseries just launched.  
<<<

Hmmm...how about "NA:I1 1" and "NA:I2 1-5"? *shrug* 


Quote: 
>>>
As for Korg and JIM 83, I'd say that we should give him a full-on appearance entry -- unless you want to assume that Korg was there, but was for some reason never glimpsed on-panel -- which seems silly. Surely he was ONE of those Kronians seen on-panel -- just because we don't know which one he was doesn't mean we should call his appearance "BTS".  
<<<

I tend to agree, but that's why I wanted to double check with others... 


Quote: 
>>>
Re: Korg, wouldn't you need to include Margus (his brother, whose near-mindless body Hulk smashes to bits using Korg in the second gladiator-training fight) in the JIM83 stuff too? 
<<<


Good catch! He should be there as well as Korg...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 01 Jan 2007 03:55 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
how about "NA:I1 1" and "NA:I2 1-5"? 
<<<

Oooh, I HATE calling one-shots "vol.1" and miniseries "vol.2" ... to my mind, one issue does not a volume make. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Jan 2007 05:28 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Oooh, I HATE calling one-shots "vol.1" and miniseries "vol.2" ... to my mind, one issue does not a volume make.  
<<<

Personal distaste aside, though, I'd say the best thing to do is call the one-shot NA:I and the current limited series NA:I2.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 01 Jan 2007 06:23 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
how about "NA:I1 1" and "NA:I2 1-5"? 
<<<

Oooh, I HATE calling one-shots "vol.1" and miniseries "vol.2" ... to my mind, one issue does not a volume make. 
<<<

I fully and entirely agree with you on that. OTOH, precedent goes with the v1/v2 thing... :/ 

The other thing is about the use of "NA" - the main New Avengers series is listed as A4, and even the code-->title segment of the Key gives the code "A4" the title "AVENGERS VOL. 4" despite both the formal and common name of the series being New Avengers. With that in mind, the code NA:I could be thought of as inconsistant.

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Posted: 01 Jan 2007 06:41 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
precedent goes with the v1/v2 thing... 

MCP precedent, maybe, but has Marvel ever done it? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 01 Jan 2007 06:49 pm    
By Somebody

Silver Surfer v2 is a one-shot, and listed as "SILVER SURFER Vol. 2, No. 1, 1982" in it's indicia. The later 149-issue series was then listed as "Vol. 3"

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Posted: 01 Jan 2007 10:21 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I'd be careful of calling that one-shot "NA:I 1" -- a five-issue "New Avengers: Illuminati" miniseries just launched. 
<<<

I've seen the one-shot referred to as "New Avengers: Illuminati Special" by Marvel, but I don't klnow if that actually appears in the indicia. 

-Sean

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Posted: 01 Jan 2007 10:40 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD 
*H3 95-FB 
*H3 94 
*H3 95  

Can someone confirm what the Silver Surfer's last appearance was prior to his appearance here? Was it the recent "Defenders" miniseries from last year? I know that his next appearance after appearing here is in the "Annihilation" books... 

Quote: 
>>>
I've seen the one-shot referred to as "New Avengers: Illuminati Special" by Marvel, but I don't klnow if that actually appears in the indicia.  
<<<

Yes, in the indicia the one-shot is called, "New Avengers: Illuminati No. 1"...and the first issue of the new miniseries has the exact same indicia... 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 02 Jan 2007 12:29 am    
By JLH

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Can someone confirm what the Silver Surfer's last appearance was prior to his appearance here? Was it the recent "Defenders" miniseries from last year? I know that his next appearance after appearing here is in the "Annihilation" books... 
<<<

His Captain Universe appearance is the only other one I can think of prior to Annihilation.

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Posted: 02 Jan 2007 01:01 am    
By Col_Fury

What about NA: ILL for the one-shot, and NA: I for the mini?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Thread 32

Posted: 14 Dec 2006 05:19 pm    Post subject: Claws #1-3
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Okay, the cover dates here are October to December 2006. The story runs through without any gaps, and it's pretty straightforward stuff. The main story is probably one day, two at the most, with a three-page epilogue "two days later." 

CLAWS #1. Manhattan, night. (No moon in shot.) The Black Cat is running over the rooftops when Spider-Man (in his red and blue costume) swings down on her. They flirt for a bit. He suspects she's up to no good, but after several pages of pointless filler, she shakes him off and heads on her way. 

Meanwhile, in Tokyo International Airport, Wolverine is waiting in a queue to get through the security check. (It's never specified what he was doing there in the first place.) He calls Emma Frost on his mobile but gets her voicemail. When he goes through the metal detector, his adamantium skeleton sets it off. A guard starts questioning him but, after a bit, Emma Frost takes over his mind telepathically. She winds Wolverine up for a bit, and then lets him through. (Bizarrely, Emma is shown explicitly in the X-Men Mansion in New York, controlling a man in Tokyo with no technological aids. Must be a good day. Cyclops is shown in the background, wearing his usual sunglasses.) 

Back in New York, the Black Cat breaks into a tall building and tries to steal a jewel. Her employer has told her that it's really an occult device. But it turns out to be a trap; the jewel releases a gas that knocks Black Cat out, and then the whole top of the building turns into a rocket and flies off into the night. 

"Somewhere over the South Pacific", Wolverine is on his passenger flight back from Tokyo. The same gas appears and knocks everyone out. Wolverine survives longer than most and manages to - more or less - crashland on a desert island. (We never find out what happened to the passengers and crew.) 

"Hours" later, Wolverine and Black Cat wake up in separate cages in a jungle clearing. They're surrounded by a bunch of assorted low-grade hunter types, led by an extremely unconvincing Kraven impersonator. (Both Wolverine and Black Cat see through him immediately, but the hunters are too stupid to know the difference. As we'll find out in issue #2, "Kraven" is a robot controlled by Arcade. The hunters are rich kids who've paid to go on a hunting trip with him.) "Kraven" announces that there's a boat on the other side of the island, and they can escape as long as they make it there in twelve hours. Meanwhile, the hunters will be trying to kill them. Wolverine and the Black Cat are released, and the usual running-around-encountering-traps stuff begins. 

Characters: Arcade (bts), Black Cat, Cyclops, Emma Frost, Spider-Man, Wolverine. 

(Incidentally, some of the thugs do have names, but they're basically just interchangeable morons, and since they all die, I'm assuming nobody much cares about tracking their individual appearances. As for timing, it's daylight on the island, but that doesn't actually tell us much, because we don't know where the island is.) 

CLAWS #2. Direct continuation, picking up immediately where we left off. Lots of running around. Some hunters get killed. Wolverine and the Black Cat have scenes of alleged sexual tension. Finally, after spending most of the issue on this stuff, Wolverine announces that Arcade must be behind it all. We see Arcade in a control room along with his new sidekick, White Rabbit - a girl in a Playboy Bunny costume with a pocketwatch and suit symbols tattooed on her shoulders (heart and club on the right, spade and diamond on the left). Arcade is furious. White Rabbit suggests, quite reasonably, that they've got the hunters' money so they might as well just leave. At first Arcade just wants to see the game through, but she persuades him not to bother. It's pretty much unambiguous that these two are having a relationship. Arcade cuts his losses and decides to blow up the island. Lots of explosions ensue, and for no obvious reason, a bunch of robots attack our heroes. (The whole issue can't take more than an hour or so. Arcade looks like a slightly modernised version of his traditional self in this story. He's got no scarring or anything remotely similar, and instead of his 1970s white suit, he's wearing fairly normal clothes.) 

Characters: Arcade, Black Cat, White Rabbit, Wolverine 

CLAWS #3, flashback (pp4-8, 10-13, 15-16). Direct continuation from the previous issue. Wolverine and the Black Cat escape into the sea and, in a ludicrously implausible scene, Wolverine manages to throw Black Cat high enough into the air to board the helicopter on which the surviving hunters are escaping. She throws them all overboard and lets down a rope ladder for Wolverine to climb up. Since we still have some pages to kill, a random sea monster attacks, which is apparently Arcade's pet. Wolverine escapes from it, gets aboard the helicopter, and they leave. Some time later (at night), their helicopter approaches Manhattan. USAF jets approach, and Wolverine telepathically contacts Emma Frost, who fends them off. (This prompts both Black Cat and Emma to raise the obvious plot hole: If he can contact Emma that easily, why didn't he do it when they were on the island? Wolverine never gives a terribly convincing answer.) 

Characters: Wolverine, Black Cat, Emma Frost (bts) 

CLAWS #3, pp1-19. Manhattan, night. Arcade's apartment. Arcade plays video games and taunts the White Rabbit for no obvious reason, because the writers have suddenly decided she needs to turn on him at the end of the story even though they did nothing to set it up last issue. In another spectacularly implausible scene, when Arcade and White Rabbit step into their elevator (planning to go to the opera), the lift is somehow hooked by Wolverine and the Black Cat's helicopter overhead, and hauled into the air. They fly the helicopter all the way to, of all places, the Savage Land, where they dump them and leave. A dinosaur attacks, and Arcade abandons the White Rabbit, fleeing into the jungle. 

Characters: Arcade, Black Cat, White Rabbit, Wolverine 

CLAWS #3, pp20-22. "Two days later." Night, Manhattan. Wolverine and Black Cat have dinner in a high class restaurant. Nothing of interest transpires. Meanwhile [by strong implication, though it COULD be later], in the Savage Land, the White Rabbit sits in a throne with her new pet goat, while a bunch of stereotypical savage dance around a fire in front of her. Arcade is tied to a spit over the fire (showing no obvious sign of injury) begging White Rabbit for forgiveness. 

Characters: Arcade, Black Cat, White Rabbit, Wolverine. 

The more I look at the story, the more I realise how godawful it was.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 17 Dec 2006 03:57 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Paul. Sorry you had to endure reliving this story in order to get an analysis done. I'm inclined to interpret the "hours later" reference in CLAWS 1 as being the next day since the issue begins at night. On what page/panel does this break occur?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 20 Dec 2006 05:56 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The gap is between pages 14-15. There's no passage-of-time caption, but one of the hunters states that Black Cat and Wolverine have both been unconscious for hours.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 20 Dec 2006 06:58 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Paul. I assume that issue #1 is 22 pages long? 

There doesn't appear to be anything here conclusive about placement. I suppose this is before Civil War. Spidey is in his classic duds, or maybe his Iron Spidey costume mimicking his classic costume. I assume Logan is in his Astonishing costume. Arcade may appear here after THING2 3. Felicia may be here either before SENSM2 24 or between SENSM2 26 and SENSM2 29. With so many appearances in various comics, Emma and Logan could be here at just about any spot in recent pre-CW history. Hmm.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Jan 2007 07:00 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Does anyone have any more thoughts about the placement of this mini?
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 02 Jan 2007 01:17 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Since Black Cat seems to be acting as a solo adventurer, I'd take it that it predates Civil War and (in particular) her joining Heroes For Hire. In any event, it might as well go before Civil War, because it's simpler that way.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 02 Jan 2007 07:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I guess the question then would be: how long before Civil War? Since Spidey is in his classic duds, should we assume this occurs before the Other or should we assume Peter's donning the original costume at a time after the Other (before or after he gets the Iron Spider outfit), or should we assume we're seeing version 2.0 of the Iron Spider costume replicating the look of the classic costume? Does his costume in CLAWS get torn or lack an ability that the Iron Spider costume should have?
_________________
Paul B.

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Thread 33

Posted: 08 Jan 2007 04:32 am    Post subject: GHOST RIDER vol 5 #1-5
By JLH

Whew. Barely beat the trade! 
------------------------------------ 

GHOST RIDER VOL 5 #1 [September 2006] 
Writer: Daniel Way 
Breakdowns: Javier Saltares 
Finishes: Marx Texeira 
"Vicious Cycle, Part One" 

Cast: 
GHOST RIDER II/JOHNNY BLAZE 
SATAN/"MARDUK KURIOS" 

Other characters: 
Greexix 
All sorts of unnamed demons 

Summary: So, it's another day in Hell. Johnny Blaze is still the Ghost Rider, and still trying to outrace a horde of demons to reach a gate that leads to salvation. This time, he actually avoids getting caught, and makes it through the gate! What he discovers is, expectedly, nothing lies behind it but more Hell, his destination point all these months being a fraud. Satan views the eternal punishment of Johnny, and enjoys it, as always. In a fit of despairic rage, Ghost Rider smashes the ground before him, and unearths a strange green creature. At first thinking it to be another demon sent to torment him, Johnny quickly learns this creature, named Greexix, is trying to run for his life from a trio of demons on horseback! GR is taken by surprise when the three haul the beast away, and even moreso when Greexix promises if he helps save him, he can dig them out of there. 

In Satan's chambers, Greexix is brought before his lord. He tries to deny trying to escape, merely doing his normal job of expanding the Pit by digging. Satan doesn't buy his feigned ignorance, and has him sent to be tortured, but when one of his lackeys mentions Greexix was found talking to Ghost Rider, his interest is ignited. Soon, as Greexix is apparently being carted off to be tortured, Ghost Rider drives in, snatches up the creature with his chain, and speeds away! With no plan, and only glimmers of hope to drive him, Johnny stops just to put Greexix on the seat. The massive hordes of demon warriors approaching, GR drives his bike toward the fiery hole known as the Pit, and uses his stunt motorcycle skills to leap over it! They make it, though the landing is rough. It merely buys the pair some time, as their pursuers make their way around. Greexix leads Johnny to nearby mountains, specifically a cave. It seems once while digging to expand the place, he found what appears to be the boundary of the dimension. He discovered water, of all things, seemingly signifying this breach. Greexix, unable to properly follow it because of his bad eyesight, asks Ghost Rider if he'll guide him out, so they can both escape. Taking a chance, fully aware of the untrustworthiness of demons, Johnny shakes hands with the creature. But in doing so, it's revealed that Greexix since Ghost Rider rescued him has actually been Satan in disguise. Having gotten the human's aid in reaching our realm, water floods the cave, engulfing both the Prince of Lies and the Spirit of Vengeance. 

On Earth, a beach scene at night is admired by a loving couple. They spot a burst of light in the water, which soon gives way not to sealife, but to dozens of walking corpses, as the sea gives up its dead! Not far away, Ghost Rider is freed from Hell once more, riding his motorcycle across the ocean, having gotten what he wanted, and having doomed our planet in the process. 


Continuity notes: The big bad of the series is named "Satan", but is referred to as "Lucifer" more often in recaps and previews (Greexix also calls him that once). He looks more like South Park's version of the Devil than Marvel's usual. According to the writer, this version of Satan isn't Mephisto or Satannish. So I have no idea who to credit him as, and will just have to go with the standard, the guy who actually goes by Satan. I suppose it could be Belasco, but he tends to look more human. Maybe it could even be a new, previously unseen version of Satan/Lucifer! If so, then disregard my comments. Otherwise, I'll just say this is the same guy whose son is Hellstorm. 


Goofs: No, I didn't spell it wrong. THEY did. The finisher is credited as "Marx Texeira". 

GR is no longer dragging around the body of Malachi. Seems like eternity isn't all that long in Hell! 

Despite leaving it behind in Hell (nowhere near the cave, either), GR has his bike back when he shows up on Earth. 


Calendar notes: Most of the story takes place in Hell. But the final scene is on Earth, someplace on a beach, at night. As will later be revealed, the passing over of Lucifer to the mortal plane occurred during "Civil War". Why? Because Jack O'Lantern will be revealed as being of his avatars, and Satan could only take over the bodies of those 'recently deceased as of the point in time he crossed over'. 

Pages 1-20: The story, taking place in Hell. 
Pages 21-22: It's night. It's clear. It's a beach. There's palm trees. There's a man and a woman walking along in swimwear. There's corpses... That's it. 


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GHOST RIDER VOL 5 #2 [October 2006] 
Writer: Daniel Way 
Breakdowns: Javier Saltares 
Finishes: Mark Texeira 
"Vicious Cycle, Part Two" 

Cast: 
GHOST RIDER II/JOHNNY BLAZE 
SATAN/"MARDUK KURIOS" 
DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 

Other characters: 
Dixie (trucker gal who was once a fan of Johnny's) 

Summary: Freshly back on Earth and back to normal, Johnny Blaze pushes his gas-less bike down a desolate road in the middle of the Arizona desert. A big rig diesel truck pulls up, and a young woman named Dixie hops out, offering to help him out. She calls him by name without his telling her, and he responds by trying to strangle her! Dixie's got a gun, and demands he get off of her. Noticing he isn't turning back into Ghost Rider, he realizes this isn't Lucifer, and lets go. She kicks him in the groin, and soon explains to him that her brother had his poster on her wall when she was a kid. Dixie had dreams of marrying him, and eventually did marry a bad boy just like him, who also liked to choke her. She plans on leaving him just like she left her husband, but when Johnny begs for her help, she has a change of heart and chooses to do the right thing by driving him to the truck stop. At the Iron Skillet, Dixie gives Johnny $60 to get cleaned up and something to eat. He heads inside, and once in the bathroom, cuts his hair and shaves, and of course reminds himself of how he sold his soul to the Devil to save his foster father, and also how he just brought Satan back with him from hell. 

Speaking of which, Satan arrives at the Iron Skillet, having taken over the body of an old man during his funeral. He's taken the grieving family by surprise, and has forced them all in the funeral home's van. He starts gassing it up, letting the pump overflow all around the vehicle. As the corpse of a grandfather, Lucifer heads into the truck stop, gets a book of matches, and is reminded of home by the scent. Suddenly, a burst of far, far brighter flames flare up. Johnny has stepped out of the bathroom, and is back in Ghost Rider mode. Satan takes on his normal form as well, and immediately gets knocked through the window. Noticing he's not as tough, something Satan claims to be working on, GR continues to fight the downed Prince of Darkness. As Lucifer points out the van in the pool of gasoline, Johnny is forced to choose between fighting his ultimate enemy and letting the people within die, or backing off and saving them. He realizes Satan will just kill them anyway, he prepares to snatch him with his chain, but one of the idiots in the van turns on the engine, setting it, and Satan, ablaze! The explosion kills the entire group of people within, but also does away with Grampa Lucifer. Overcome with grief, GR gets another slap in the face when he hears Satan's voice coming out of a passing trucker, who gloats about how suicides go to Hell. Johnny tries to grab him, but he pulls away, only to have another passing motorist turn out to be Lucifer-possessed as well, and another! Satan mentions Johnny will have another 665 chances to kill him. 

Suddenly, Ghost Rider finds his surroundings changed. He's many miles away from the desert, now in a graveyard in New York. A voice demands he tell him his name. Johnny, thinking this another trick, prepares to fight, and tells the voice to go first. He does, and in a blinding flash, Doctor Strange appears! 


Continuity notes: This is the first time we've seen Johnny Blaze's human form since the "Hammer Lane" mini-series. 


Goofs: Johnny's afraid to approach the van surrounded by gas because "it'll go up in flames if I do". But his skull as Ghost Rider isn't surrounded with ACTUAL flames, it's Hellfire. Only burns your soul, it's not actual fire. 


Calendar notes: Story takes place during one day. Starts out at daytime in the desert of Arizona (State named in next issue's recap). It's sunny, no clouds. New York, though, has green foilage on the trees we see near the graveyard. 

There's a tombstone in the cemetary that reads "Patricia H. Sutton. 1926-2006. Beloved Wife and Mom." 

Page 0: Recap of premise and previous issue. 
Pages 1-20: The Johnny vs Satan truck stop story. It becomes night by around page 18, during the fight between GR and Satan. 
Pages 21-22: GR is teleported to a cemetery in New York. Still at night. Clear, starry sky. Trees are full and green. 


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GHOST RIDER VOL 5 #3 [November 2006] 
Writer: Daniel Way 
Breakdowns: Javier Saltares 
Finishes: Mark Texeira 
"Vicious Cycle, Part Three" 

Cast: 
GHOST RIDER II/JOHNNY BLAZE 
SATAN/"MARDUK KURIOS" 
DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 


Summary: So, Dr Strange has brought Ghost Rider before him in a cemetery in New York, and is demanding he cease his quest for vengeance, since his involvement against Lucifer has already made a bad situation worse. Johnny, just like before, thinks this to be Satan in disguise, snatches him out of the air with his chain, and punches him down. Strange recovers, realizing this is indeed Johnny Blaze (unable to be certain before because his aura is "obfuscated"), since only he could be so "imbecilic". GR kicks him for that remark, then urges him to stand up and fight. The Sorcerer Supreme feigns defeat, before summoning the power of the Vishanti and blasting him with a bolt from his fingertip. Johnny is flung back, but fires off his chain in the process. It misses Strange, which the Doctor is bemused to note, only to discover he wasn't aiming at him. Ghost Rider yanks the chain back, and rips up the ground beneath the Doctor, burying him under the debris. Johnny proclaims how he's not gonna be fooled again by Lucifer, and before ya know it, Strange bursts out of the ground and floats overhead. He wanted to reason with Johnny, but has no choice but to use force now. Ghost Rider's ignorance and power is threatening both the mortal and immortal realms, and as protector of this one, the Doctor's gonna keep it safe by making sure he never leaves! 

Meanwhile, back in Arizona, a pair of goofy guys find Johnny Blaze's bike by the side of the road. They haul it into the back of their truck, and soon proceed to the Iron Skillet to get some beers. Police appear to be after them, but luckily, they're heading to the truck stop instead. Suddenly, the bike bursts into flames and takes off, driving on its own. The dopey duo manage to get out of their truck in time before it explodes as a result, now wanting the help of the cops they so feared prior. 

So, back in New York, Ghost Rider still thinks Dr Strange is Lucifer. He even screams so hard at him that flames burst out of his mouth. Taken by surprise by his new abilities, Johnny ends up getting severly blasted by another Strange's incantations. The force of the energy is so absolute, it shreds GR's leathers, extinguishes his flame, and leaves him lying in a crater, unable to move! The Doctor laments seemingly killing him, having only tried to make things balanced. But happily, chains wrap around him (mouth especially) and toss him into the air... chains coming from Johnny's skeletal ribs! Ghost Rider rises back to his feet, his flames and suit restored, and the Spirit of Vengeance takes over. Johnny gives in to its control, a visible change in his demeanor occurring as he prepares to get vengeance upon the 'demon' he believes he's facing. 

Meanwhile, near Elk City, Oklahoma, we see two more avatars of Lucifer. An old man who died two days prior is reanimated by a shard of Satan's essence, having killed his wife and grandkids, and eagerly awaiting the arrival of his daughter to witness the aftermath. He sits down to a glass of lemonade with the corpse of an old woman, who Satan took over while waiting for an autopsy. He had her use a sawblade on those within the hospital, and now has her own bloody ambulance. They don't worry about Ghost Rider showing up, since he's busy at the moment. Busy doing what? Why, busy using his penance stare on Dr Strange! 


Note: Tombstones in the cemetery include Jacob Kirby Kurtzberg, Will Eisner, Alex Toth, Isaac Asimov, and Robert Ervin Howard. 

Goofs: Johnny shouldn't be so shocked by the flame-breath, since he used it about 50 times in the previous mini-series. 


Calendar notes: No sign of a moon in the sky in any of the night scenes. 

Page 0: Recap. 
Pages 1-8, 13-18, 22: Dr Strange vs GR. Green grass and trees in New York. Night. 
Pages 9-12: Dopey duo swipe bike. It's nighttime still in Arizona, same night as previous issue and previous scene. 
Pages 19-21: Near Elk City, OK. Two of Lucifer's avatars meet up. It's daytime in this scene, so it clearly isn't happening parallel to the battle with Strange, despite the implications. 


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GHOST RIDER VOL 5 #4 [December 2006] 
Writer: Daniel Way 
Breakdowns: Javier Saltares 
Finishes: Mark Texeira 
"Vicious Cycle, Conclusion" 

Cast: 
GHOST RIDER II/JOHNNY BLAZE (also in FB) 
SATAN/"MARDUK KURIOS" (FB only) 
DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 
NUMECET 

Other characters: 
The 666 Avatars of Lucifer (FB only, vast majority BTS in it) 

Summary: What's that you say? Johnny's never used the Penance Stare before? Well, since Ennis isn't writing this, even Johnny is stunned by his ability to use something previously only employed as a weapon by Daniel Ketch. He recognizes the fact that the Spirit of Vengeance has been given control of his Ghost Rider form, and with it, access to new powers he never knew he could use. Since the stare worked on Dr Strange, forcing him to experience all the pain and torment he's ever caused anyone, this proves he's not Lucifer in disguise. Johnny desperately tries to revive the now non-breathing Sorcerer Supreme, to no avail. Suddenly, a burst of light heralds the appearance of an angelic being that Dr Strange knows as a friend, a pink-haired, mist-bodied woman known as Numecet. She's aware of Johnny, how he has more power than he knows, or even more than any human should. He reverts to human form briefly, but returns to GR mode when he asks what Lucifer is up to. Numecet tries to remain uninvolved, but he wraps his chain around her neck and demands answers. She laments his desire for vengeance, since that leads to Hell, but he's fully aware of that, having been there enough. So, let me break it down for you as she puts it: When Ghost Rider crossed over from Hell, Lucifer came with him. But in the process, the Devil, a Celestial being, not meant to exist on the mortal plane (only as an apparition), didn't pass through intact. He shattered into hundreds of pieces, which fell all over the globe, and lacking a physical respository, made do with the bodies of those recently deceased. People who were at that moment crossing over to the Immortal Realm, and in doing so, takes possession of their souls and bodies. So now, a piece of Satan is within 665 different human bodies, since one was destroyed as we saw. Numecet also stresses an important fact: Lucifer WANTS Johnny to kill each of these avatars. When one is destroyed, the remaining amount gain that one's power. Keep continuing his quest for vengeance, and each one will be stronger, and stronger, until finally, Satan regains his complete form, now in our realm, and conquers the planet. Though he could get anyone to kill him, and he will, eventually, his avatars will be so powerful only Ghost Rider will be able to kill them. And Lucifer can't kill himself, since as he put it, suicide is a sin. He'd just go back to Hell! But Johnny Blaze sees this as an opportunity. He'll kill all the avatars, and when Satan's back in one piece, he'll drag him back to Hell personally. Numecet had mentioned the fact only GR can pass between Earth and Hell, and that's why he was sought in this trick. As such, this gives Johnny support in his "drag 'em back" plan, which Numecet urges him not to pursue. Finally, Johnny's bike arrives from Arizona. He warns that Numecet, Strange, nor anyone else, will stop him in this goal. Ghost Rider speeds away, and Numecet sheds a tear, which splashes upon the body of Dr Strange. Either it revives him, or he revived himself, all that matters is he wakes up and asks her why she's crying. She merely replies that Johnny's right. 


Flashbacks: Ghost Rider II (Johnny Blaze) and Satan, between pages 20 and 21 in issue 1 of this volume! It shows Ghost Rider riding across the celestial barrier on his bike, as Satan hangs on the back. Then, once through, GR plummets from the portal in the sky, and lands in the ocean. But Lucifer? He disintegrates into hundreds of pieces, each of which falls to Earth and proceeds to take refuge in the bodies of the "recently deceased". 

Continuity notes: Johnny's comment about the Penance Stare being something "The Kid. Danny Ketch" used to do marks the first time Danny's been even mentioned in a comic since 1998. Seriously. 


Goofs: The "only Johnny can cross between Earth and Hell" thing is a crock of Greexix poo. I guess it's a simplifacation of saying "only he can access that particular Hell dimension". Which, of course, they have yet to establish as anything other than the same Hell that about 50 other beings already control. 

Calendar notes: There's finally a shot of the moon on the last page. It appears to be full. 

Page 0: Recap. 
Pages 1-22: Ghost Rider tries to revive Dr Strange, meets Numecet, who tells him about Lucifer's ultimate goal. Still at night, still clear, still green grass and trees. 
Pages 9-10 panel 3: FB to an unseen scene in issue 1. GR passing over with Lucifer hanging on, then exploding and GR falling into the ocean. 
Pages 11 (panels 2 through 5): FB, continued. Pieces of Lucifer fall to Earth. At night in a morgue somewhere, a body rises up on the slab. 
Page 13-14: A group shot of all the dead bodies taken over by Satan. Obviously not a real scene. 
Page 15 (panel 4): A new shot taking place during issue 2. Grampa Corpse aflame, lying on the ground at the Iron Skillet, as about three evil looking avatars of Lucifer stand around grinning. 
Page 16: Imaginary shot of how things will look when Lucifer takes over. His big horned head floating in space, smiling agape as the moon shatters and the Earth becomes aflame like the sun. 

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GHOST RIDER VOL 5 #5 [January 2007] 
Writer: Daniel Way 
Breakdowns: Javier Saltares 
Finishes: Mark Texeira 
"The Day Johnny Came Home" 

Cast: 
GHOST RIDER II/JOHNNY BLAZE (also in FB) 
SATAN/"MARDUK KURIOS" (also in FB) 
BLAZE, ROXANNE SIMPSON (FB only) 
SIMPSON, "CRASH" (FB only) 
BLAZE, EMMA (FB only) 
BLAZE, CRAIG (FB only) 
BLAZE, BARTON (FB only) 
KALE, NAOMI (FB only) 
KETCH, BARBARA (FB only) 
GHOST RIDER III/DAN KETCH (FB only) 

Other characters: 
Captain Marks (Voice-Only. Cop) 
Unnamed cop (vehicle IDed as "Unit 20") 
Four bikers possessed by pieces of Lucifer (all die) 
Barry and Cliff (Fire marshall and cop investigating Quentin Carnival destruction) 

Summary: Ghost Rider takes on some more avatars of Lucifer, this time a motorcycle gang of them who just killed 19 people. He wipes out three of the four, and the final one urges him to follow as Satan leads Johnny back to the Quentin Carnival. Being back among the place he called home for so long, memories flood back in, from seeing his father Barton die, to leaving his mother and moving in with the Simpson family and falling in love with Roxanne. Lucifer leads him to his old trailer, which prompts memories of his son and daughter, as well. Not to mention, memories of how he secretly learned how to dabble in the dark arts with his fellow carnies, much to Roxanne's dismay. Then the time he sold his soul to the Devil to save his foster father from cancer, only to have him die anyway. Roxanne somehow, he's never been sure exactly how, saved him from being taken by Satan, but it led to his becoming the Ghost Rider. Lucifer, with this mention of how Johnny feels abandoned by his father, relates with him. He's trying to tell Johnny something about his genesis as the Spirit of Vengeance that he doesn't know, something that's been right in front of his face, and inside the trailer, for years. But GR just flames out in an effort to gain vengeance, blowing up the trailer and killing another of Lucifer's avatars. The blast spreads so rapidly, it ends up taking down the entire run-down carnival with it. Ghost Rider rides out of the ashes, vowing to see Satan in Hell, and to have the last laugh. The next morning, the cops dig through the debris of Quentin Carnival. A cop named Barry finds something which didn't burn, and gets yelled at by the fire marshall in charge, Cliff, for possibily compromising evidence. What's the evidence? What didn't burn? An old bible. The same one Roxanne used to repell Satan from taking Johnny's soul years ago, and the same one Lucifer was trying to tell him about, having been in the trailer all these years. 


Flashbacks: A little more detail into Johnny's past, plus a coverage of the typical "how he became GR" stuff. There's a lot of stuff here, I'll do a reconstructuion of things below. Roughly, the new stuff is 1) Johnny seeing his father die, then spending a last night with his mother, baby brother, and sister. 2) Johnny discovering the joys of dark magic from his carnie pals, to Roxanne's dismay. 3) Rocky using a bible to repel Satan. 4) Crash Simpson burning in hell, as Satan laughs. 5) Johnny, Roxanne, Emma, and Craig during the happy days when Ghost Rider was no more. 

Continuity notes: I believe this is the first time Quentin Carnival has been seen since the Blaze monthly book a dozen years back. 

The flashbacks have Lucifer as he appears in this series as being the guy Johnny dealt with. Which means the previous retcon, having it be Mephisto, is now being retconned out without even acknowledging it as being a previously held belief. Why? No, I'm not answering, since I have no answer, I'M the one asking. WHY?!?!? 

Roxanne Simpson-Blaze is said by Lucifer to be dead. Probably not a good time for them to be finally publishing GR3 94, which shows her to be undead but still alive, huh? 

Goofs: Daniel and Barbara Ketch are shown to be older than previously established history in the FB to their time with Johnny and his mother. Just by a little bit. Doesn't help the fact this has Johnny being around after Barb and Dan were born, as well, meaning he would've remembered them later. 

Roxanne using a Bible or any book to repell Satan is not shown in any of the retellings of Johnny's origin as Ghost Rider. She's got nothing in her hands when she enters. As such, it's a retcon. But it manages to slip in between panels, as I note below. 


Calendar notes: Not sure where Quentin Carnival is located in the story. Where ever it is, the trees are full and green. There's some mountains, or mountainous, rocky areas... I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's in New York somewhere. Oh, it's around mile marker 212, and there's a "route twenty" nearby. Make with that what you will. 

Page 0: Recap. 
Pages 1-20: The story. Johnny after biker avatars, ends up in Quentin Carnival, blows it up. All at night, a clear night. Maybe even the same night as the previous issue! 
Page 6 panel 3 to 5: FB. Young Johnny Blaze watches as his father, Barton Blaze, dies in a flaming motorcycle stunt wreck. His mother, baby brother, and younger sister are also present. 
Page 7: FB. That night, Johnny is unable to sleep, peeks in on his mother, brother, and sister. Mother, Naomi, thinks he's Bart, and is disappointed when it's just John. He goes to eat some cereal. Dialogue mentions his mother takes the two little ones and leaves the next day. 
Page 8 panels 1 & 2: Crash, Mona, Roxanne, and Johnny at Quentin Carnival. Roxy begs Johnny to stay, which he agrees to. 
Page 8 panels 3 & 4: Probably around then, Johnny and Roxanne sit atop a hill overlooking the carnival, and she kisses him. 
Page 9: Crash Simpson in hell, naked in a burning pit of skulls, fighting a giant coiling serpent, as Satan look on and laughs. 
Page 12, panels 4 & 5: Johnny, Emma, Craig, and Roxanne. During the days after Johnny was rid of Zarathos. It's during March of some year, according to a calendar on the wall. As kids play in the bed with their father, Roxanne peeks in on her Bible in her locker. 
Page 13, panels 2 to 6: As a pre-teen or so, Johnny spots three fellow carnies gathering around a burning skull with incense, dabbling in the black arts of magic. Roxanne notices he's with them, and pouts. 
Page 14 & page 15 panel 1: First, we got Johnny selling his soul to Satan. Then Crash doing his failed jump and dying. Then Satan showing up to claim his prize. 
Page 15: panels 2 and 3: Roxanne repelling Satan with the bible, as Johnny falls onto the bed. 
Page 15 panel 4, page 16: Johnny ignites, skin melting off, as he becomes GR for the first time. 
Pages 21-22: Morning. Day after Quentin Carnival burned down. Cops sort through debris, find indestructible Bible. 


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A complete reconstruction of Ghost Rider Johnny Blaze's origin, from all four sources I could find (if anyone knows where any other retellings can be found to be added to this, let me know): 
-GR3 14-FB (page 14, panel 1) A shot of young Johnny Blaze posing with a man in a suit and tie, and a short, plump woman. This is supposed to be his mother and father, though they look nothing like that and the lack of Barb & Dan is odd in retroactive hindsight. 
-GR5 5-FB (page 6, panel 3) Barton Blaze prepares to do a stunt in front of a large carnival crowd. 
-GR3 14-FB (page 14, panel 2) Barton Blaze and his bike exploding. 
-M/SPT 5-FB (page 7, panel 2) Shot of Barton Blaze's bike exploding. 
-GR5 5-FB (page 6, panels 4 & 5) Young Johnny Blaze watches in tears as his father, Barton Blaze, dies in a flaming motorcycle stunt wreck. His mother, Naomi Kale, baby brother Daniel Ketch, and younger sister Barbara Ketch, are also present. 
-GR5 5-FB (Page 7) That night, Johnny is unable to sleep, peeks in on his mother, brother, and sister. Mother, Naomi, thinks he's Bart, and is disappointed when it's just John. He goes to eat some cereal. Dialogue mentions his mother takes the two little ones and leaves the next day. 
-GR3 14-FB (Page 14, panel 3) Young Johnny in a cemetery, as Crash puts his arm on his shoulder, and young Roxanne smiles. 
-M/SPT 5-FB (page 7, panels 3 & 4) Young Johnny getting talked into staying with Crash, Mona, and Roxanne. Identical (with dialogue differences) to GR2 68-FB (page 4, panels 2 & 3) and GR5 5-FB (page 8 panels 1 & 2, though only last two lines of dialogue are present). 
-GR5 5-FB (page 8 panels 3 & 4) Probably around then, Johnny and Roxanne sit atop a hill overlooking the carnival, and she kisses him. 
-M/SPT 5-FB (page 8, panel 1) Johnny on the sidelines as Crash, Rocky and Mona do a stunt. Identical to GR2 68-FB (page 4, panel 4). 
-M/SPT 5-FB (page 8, panel 2) Crash talking to Young Johnny, as Mona tells him not to push Johnny into riding. 
-GR5 5-FB (page 13, panels 2 to 6): As a pre-teen or so, Johnny spots three fellow carnies gathering around a burning skull with incense, dabbling in the black arts of magic. Roxanne notices he's with them, and pouts. 
-M/SPT 5-FB (page 8, panels 3 to 6 through page 9 panels 1 & 2) A slightly older Johnny riding a bike with Rocky, the bike catches on fire, she hops off to Mona's side. Johnny smashes into tree, Mona rushes out to check on him and is caught when the bike explodes. Identical (with minor dialogue differences) to GR2 68-FB (page 4, panels 5 & 6 through page 5, all 4 panels). 
-M/SPT 5-FB (page 9, panels 3, 4 & 5) Johnny, Crash, Rocky, and priest at Mona's bedside. She makes him promise her he won't ride in the show, which he does. Then, we see her grave as Johnny comforts Rocky and Crash stands to the side in the rain. Identical (with minor dialogue differences) to GR2 68-FB (page 5, panels 1, 2 & 3). 
-GR2 68-FB (page 6, panels 3, 4, & 5) Johnny checks out some books on the occult, tries to contact Mona, but finds the books to be full of crap. So, he turns to working on motorcycles. 
-M/SPT 5-FB (page 10, panels 1, 2 & 3) Crash balks at Johnny's cowardace, and Rocky also thinks him chicken. Identical (with minor dialogue differences) to GR2 68-FB (page 7, panels 1, 2, & 3). 
-M/SPT 5-FB (page 10, panel 4) Rocky and Crash pose during one of their stunt shows, as Johnny is back in the shadows, sulking.-M/SPT 5-FB (page 10, panel 5 through page 11 all 4 panels) Rocky walks in on Johnny practicing some bike stunts alone. She confronts him about his secret, he finally admits it was her mother's last wish, and finding he's actually no coward, she kisses him. Soon, Bike World magazine has the show on the front page, as Crash and Rocky pose in front of a spotlight. Identical (but condensed to remove a lot of dialogue) to GR2 68-FB (page 7, panels 4, 5, 6 & 7). 
-M/SPT 5-FB (page 12, all 6 panels, through page 13, panels 1-5) Rocky gets a call for a big Madison Square Garden show, Johnny's excited, but Crash informs them he has cancer and won't live to see it. He wishes he could leave his show to a son, and despite Rocky's insistance, Johnny refuses to break his promise to Mona, getting him called a coward again. Identical (but missing a whole lot) to GR2 68-FB (page 8, panels 1, 2, 3 & 4). 
-M/SPT 5-FB (page 13, panels 6 & 7 through page 14, all 4 panels, and page 15 panels 1 & 2) Johnny reads up on his occult books, decides to contact Satan, does the burning cow skull in the pentagram and summoning words schtick, Satan appears, and accepts the bargin for Crash's soul, leaving Johnny lying in agony as a result. Identical (but condensed, and some dialogue differences, not to mention Satan becomes drawn to look like Mephisto) to GR2 68-FB (page 9, all 5 panels). 
-M/SPT 5-FB (page 15, panels 3, 4 & 5 through page 16, panels 1, 2, & 3) Rocky warns Johnny that Crash is preparing to make the world jump record at Madison Square. He's prepared to die his own way. Johnny gets called gutless and backs off. 
-GR2 68-FB (page 10, panels 1 & 2). Shot of the exterior of MSG, with the Crash Simpson sign up. Then a shot of Crash in the spotlights, enjoying the roar of the crowd as Johnny and Roxanne stand on the sidelines, sulking. 
-M/SPT 5-FB (page 16, panels 3, 4, 5 & 6 through page 17 panels 1, 2 and 3) Crash gives Johnny a thumbs up, and then attempts to jump 22 cars on his motorcycle. He fails, and falls, crashing and burning. Identical (with an announcer addition) to GR2 68-FB (page 10, panels 3, 4, 5, 6, & 7). 
-GR2 68-FB (page 11, panel 1) Johnny gasps in horror as Crash has just crashed. Identical to GR5 5-FB (page 14 panel 3). 
-M/SPT 5-FB (page 17, panel 4) Johnny rushes out to Crash's dying body. 
-M/SPT 5-FB (page 18, all 5 panels through page 19 panels 1, 2, 3 and 4) As Crash is carted away on a stretcher, Johnny gets on a motorcycle, does the jump, and Rocky is appalled, giving him the show and never wanting to see him again. 
-GR3 14-FB (Page 14, panel 4) Crash in the hospital on a ventilator, as Roxanne clutches his hand and Johnny stands sadly. 
-M/SPT 5-FB (page 19, panels 5, 6 & 7 through page 20 panels 1 and 2) In the dressing room later, after Crash has died, Johnny is confronted by Satan, who demands his soul. Roxanne enters just as it's being taken from him. Identical (with some condensing, and Mephisto-fied) to GR2 68-FB (page 11, panels 2, 3 and 4). 
-GR5 5-FB (page 15, panels 2 and 3) Roxanne rushes in, repelling Satan with the bible, as Johnny falls onto the bed. 
-M/SPT 5-FB (page 20, panels 3, 4, 5) Rocky grabs Johnny and recites repelling spell to get rid of Satan. With Johnny saved, the pair embrace. Identical (with condensing and blah) to GR2 68-FB (page 11, panels 5 & 6). 
-M/SPT 5-FB (page 20, panel 6 through page 21, panels 1, 2, 3, 4, 5) Johnny turns into the Ghost Rider for the first time, just after putting on his riding leathers, in front of a mirror. He then puts on his gloves and departs. Identical (but dialogueless and missing a panel) to GR2 68-FB (page 12, panels 2, 3, 4, 5). 

The rest of GR2 68-FB has random little things involve Ghost Rider as he later became, uncontrolable and terrorizing people by smashing walls, and making a bike from flames... stuff with no relation to his origin. 



**BLAZE, BARTON 
M/AGE 87-BTS 
GR3 14-FB 
GR5 5-FB 
GR3 14-FB 
{M/SPT 5-FB} 

BLAZE, CRAIG 
**GR3 14-FB 
**GR5 5-FB 
GR3 22 
... 

BLAZE, EMMA 
**GR3 14-FB 
**GR5 5-FB 
GR3 22 
... 

BLAZE, ROXANNE "ROCKY" SIMPSON 
**M/AGE 87 
**GR3 14-FB (Page 14, panel 3) 
**{M/SPT 5-FB} (page 7, panels 3 & 4) 
**GR5 5-FB (page 8 panels 3 & 4) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 8, panel 1) 
GR3 -1 
**GR5 5-FB (page 13, panels 2 to 6) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 8, panels 3 to 6 through page 9) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 10, panels 1, 2 & 3) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 10, panel 4) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 10, panel 5 through page 11) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 12, all 6 panels, through page 13, panels 1-5) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 15, panels 3, 4 & 5 through page 16, panels 1, 2, & 3) 
**GR2 68-FB (page 10, panel 2) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 16, panels 3, 4, 5 & 6 through page 17 panels 1, 2 and 3)-OP 
**GR2 68-FB (page 11, panel 1)-OP 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 17, panel 4)-OP 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 18, all 5 panels through page 19 panels 1, 2, 3 and 4) 
**GR3 14-FB (Page 14, panel 4) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 20 panel 1 2) 
**GR5 5-FB (page 15, panels 2 and 3) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 20, panels 3, 4, 5) 
[{M/SPT 5}]-OMIT (in FB only) 
M/SPT 6 
... 
DEF 146 
GR3 14-FB 
**GR5 5-FB 
GR3 14-BTS 
... 

GHOST RIDER II/JOHNNY BLAZE 
**M/AGE 87 
**GR3 14-FB (page 14, panel 1) 
[GR3 11-FB]-OMIT (there are no flashbacks in this issue) 
**GR5 5-FB (page 6, panels 4 & 5; page 7) 
**GR3 14-FB (Page 14, panel 3) 

**{M/SPT 5-FB} (page 7, panels 3 & 4) 
**GR5 5-FB (page 8 panels 3 & 4) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 8, panels 1, 2) 
GR3 -1 
[GR2 9-FB]-OMIT (there are no flashbacks in this issue) 
**GR5 5-FB (page 13, panels 2 to 6) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 8, panels 3 to 6 through page 9) 
**GR2 68-FB (page 6, panels 3, 4, & 5) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 10, panels 1, 2 & 3) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 10, panel 4) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 10, panel 5 through page 11 panel 3) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 12, all 6 panels, through page 13, panels 1-5) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 13, panels 6 & 7 through page 14, and page 15 panels 1 & 2) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 15, panels 3, 4 & 5 through page 16, panels 1, 2, & 3) 
**GR2 68-FB (page 10, panel 2) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 16, panels 3, 4, 5 & 6 through page 17 panels 1, 2 and 3) 
**GR2 68-FB (page 11, panel 1) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 17, panel 4) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 18, all 5 panels through page 19 panels 1, 2, 3 and 4) 
**GR3 14-FB (Page 14, panel 4) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 19, panels 5, 6 & 7 through page 20 panels 1 and 2) 
**GR5 5-FB (page 15, panels 2 and 3) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 20, panels 3, 4, 5) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 20, panel 6 through page 21, panels 1, 2, 3, 4, 5) 
{M/SPT 5} 
M/SPT 6 
... 
DEF 146 
GR3 14-FB 
**GR5 5-FB 
GR3 10 
... 

KETCH, BARBARA 
**GR5 5-FB 
GR3 84-FB 
GR3 -1 
... 

KALE, NAOMI 
**GR5 5-FB 
**GR3 84-FB-BTS (fakes death in car accident and gives up kids) 
{GR3 -1} 

SATAN/"MARDUK KURIOS" 
... 
TER 5-FB 
**{M/SPT 5-FB} (page 13, panels 6 & 7 through page 14, all 4 panels, and page 15 panels 1 & 2) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 19, panels 5, 6 & 7 through page 20 panels 1 and 2) 
**GR5 5-FB (page 15, panels 2 and 3) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 20, panels 3)-OP 
[{M/SPT 5}]-OMIT (in FB only) 
M/SPT 6 
M/SPT 7 
M/SPT 8 
M/SPT 9 
**GR5 5-FB (Page 9) 
M/SPT 11 
... 

SIMPSON, "CRASH"/"CURLY SAMUELS" 
**M/SPT 10-FB 
**M/TU 15-FB 
**M/AGE 87-BTS 
**GR3 14-FB (Page 14, panel 3) 
**{M/SPT 5-FB} (page 7, panels 3 & 4) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 8, panels 1, 2) 
GR3 -1 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 9, panels 3, 4 & 5) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 10, panels 1, 2 & 3) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 10, panel 4) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 11, panel 4) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 12, all 6 panels, through page 13, panels 1-5) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 15, panels 3, 4 & 5 through page 16, panels 1, 2, & 3) 
**GR2 68-FB (page 10, panel 2) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 16, panels 3, 4, 5 & 6 through page 17 panels 1, 2 and 3) 
**GR2 68-FB (page 11, panel 1)-BTS 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 17, panel 4) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 18, panel 1) 
**GR3 14-FB (Page 14, panel 4) 
[{M/SPT 5}]-OMIT (in FB only) 
**M/SPT 6 (returns as "Curly Samuels") 
**M/SPT 7 
**M/SPT 8 
**GR5 5-FB (Page 9) 
**GR2 8 
**GR2 9 

**SIMPSON, MONA 
M/SPT 5-FB 
(don't confuse her with Homer's mother)

Last edited by JLH on 16 Feb 2007 01:49 am; edited 3 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jan 2007 05:04 am    
By Somebody

Daniel Way said @ CBR that Lucifer is meant to be a new, unseen Devil (and, indeed, he's intending it as The Lucifer, as in "fallen angel").

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jan 2007 01:07 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
GHOST RIDER VOL 5 #2 [October 2006] 
Writer: Marc Guggenheim  


I thought Daniel Way was writing this entire series?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jan 2007 03:21 pm    
By Enda80

There was another origin retelling in #67 or so. It was reprinted I think in that seven issues series Original Ghost Rider Rides Again or something.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jan 2007 04:40 pm    
By JLH

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
I thought Daniel Way was writing this entire series? 
<<<

That's what I get for copying my template from Blade.

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jan 2007 04:42 pm    
By JLH

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
There was another origin retelling in #67 or so. It was reprinted I think in that seven issues series Original Ghost Rider Rides Again or something. 
<<<

It was issue 68. And I covered that in there. 

There's smaller ones in a few places like GR4 1, which usually just repeat "Johnny selling his soul". Never anything new, not even in story format, just like "hey, remember this?"

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Jan 2007 04:52 pm    
By JLH

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Daniel Way said @ CBR that Lucifer is meant to be a new, unseen Devil (and, indeed, he's intending it as The Lucifer, as in "fallen angel"). 
<<<

He never actually says there that this is a previously unseen Devil.

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Posted: 08 Jan 2007 08:15 pm    Post subject: GENERATION X HOLIDAY SPECIAL
By Dhall

GENERATION X HOLIDAY SPECIAL (1998) 

Yes, Jubilee there is a Santa Claus 

Characters Appearing: 
Jubilee 
Skin 
Synch 
M 
Chamber 
Husk 
Artie 
Leech 
Banshee 
White Queen 

Santa Claus 


Nanny 
Orphan Maker 


Matthew, a child 
His parents 

Massachusetts Academy, (in Snow Valley) with snow on ground, Christmas Eve at the mall. The team meet Orphan-Maker and Nanny, and get captured, while Jubilee, escaping from Orphan-Maker, meets Santa Claus. The team manage to break free, when the pixie dust wears off, and overpower Nanny. The next morning, they have Christmas with Artie, Leech, Banshee, and Emma. 

Theres not a lot of clues in this one, other than it being Christmas Eve, Peters new boot jets, and Nanny going back to her egg armor. Those, and the publication date of 1998, are enough to place this (for Nanny and Orphan-Maker), between GENX 4, and SL 9. 

Now, abscense of evidence, not being evidence aside, we see no other students at the academy. Of course it doesnt mean they arent there, but since in GEN X 50, it states the new human students are coming to the Academy for a January Term, we can safely assume that the Holiday special, comes sometime before that issue. (Though this being Christmas Eve, should go near issue 50.) 

Since there is no compelling reason to insert this issue into the middle of a storyline, we shall say that this issue comes sometime after GEN X 33-40. That Synch is not injured in this issue, makes it likely to be after that storyline (where he is injured.) 

So that puts us between issues 40 and 50. 42-45 are visibly set in Autumn, and are a continuing storyline. The Holiday special has to come sometime after issue 45, as the psi-characters recover their powers in issue 45, and Jono uses his in the Holiday special. 

Since Paige is in the issue, it has to happen sometime after she returns from Kentucky. She left in issue 44, and returns in issue 48. There is snow on the ground in 48, which if nothing else means that the season is supposed to be winter. I recommend placing this issue, between GEN X 49 and 50, because that placement: is in the right season, as depicted in the surrounding books, is before January, as stated in GEN X 50, has the right characters present at the school, is not in the middle of an ongoing storyline in an awkward way, and everyone has their powers. Other placements are possible, but most would involve inserting this issue into an ongoing storyline, which gains us no benefit. Im sure someone will come up with a different set of arguments. 



NANNY II 
SL 9-FB 
{XF 30} 
XF 31 
XF 33 
XF 34 
XF 35 
A 299 
A 300 
XF 40 
UX 247 
UX 248 
UX 267-FB 
UX 265 
UX 266 
UX 267 
GENX 3 
GENX 4 
*GENXHOL 
SL 9 

ORPHAN-MAKER/"PETER" 
SL 9-FB 
{XF 33} 
XF 34 
XF 35 
A 299 
A 300 
XF 40 
UX 247 
UX 248 
UX 267-FB 
UX 265 
UX 266 
UX 267 
GENX 3 
GENX 4 
*GENXHOL 
SL 9 


JUBILEE 
 
GENX 49 
GENX '98 
*GENXHOL 
GENX 50 

SKIN 
GENX 48 
GENX 49 
GENX '98 
*GENXHOL 
GENX 50 

SYNCH 
GENX 48 
GENX 49 
GENX '98 
*GENXHOL 
GENX 50 


M II 
GENX 48 
GENX 49 
*GENXHOL 
GENX 50 
XM 50 
GENX 51 

CHAMBER 
GENX 48 
GENX 49 
GENX '98 
*GENXHOL 
GENX 50 
XM 50 

HUSK 
GENX 48 
GENX 49 
GENX '98 
*GENXHOL 
GENX 50 
XM 50 

MADDICKS, ARTHUR "ARTIE" 
 
GENX 45 
GENX 47 
*GENXHOL 
GENX 51 
GENX 52 

LEECH 
GENX 45 
GENX 47 
*GENXHOL 
GENX 51 
GENX 52 

BANSHEE 
GENX 48 
GENX 49 
GENX '98 
*GENXHOL 
GENX 50 
GENX 51 

WHITE QUEEN 
GENX 48 
GENX 49 
GENX '98 
*GENXHOL 
GENX 50 
XM 50 

SANTA CLAUS/NICK ST. CHRISTOPHER 
HTD MAG 3 
S-H2 7 
S-H2 8 
*GENXHOL

			*	*	*

Thread 35

Posted: 11 Jan 2007 05:08 am    Post subject: The Punisher gap books
By JLH

THE PUNISHER: KINGDOM GONE (Marvel Graphic Novel) [August 1990] 
Story: Chuck Dixon 
Art: Jorge Zaffino 

Cast: 
PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE 
MICROCHIP/LINUS LIEBERMAN 

Other characters: 
Hamilton "Bo" Greaves (villain of the tale. Dies) 
Harley (his bodyguard. Dies) 
Phillipe (President of Puerto Salvaje) 
Esperanza (forced girlfriend of Bo. Dies) 
Calvin Mellon (air freight pilot and fellow Nam vet) 
General Leo Besserman (head of the troop patrol on the island) 
Group of Marines that help Punisher out (names include MacRae and Tellinger) 


Summary: The Federal government is preparing to take down a money launderer for numerous mobs, a guy named Hamilton "Bo" Greaves. The Punisher is one step ahead of them, wanting to kill him before he can get away, or get arrested and just do a few years in a country club. His attempt to get him in his skyscraper office fails, as Graves escapes by helicopter, leaving the country, even. A short while later, he resurfaces in the Caribbean island of Puerto Salvaje, using his drug trafficking contacts and large amount of funds to convince the country's President to allow him control of its banks. The P.S. prez visits the US in a meeting with a state department member, and ends up painting a picture of Greaves' upgrades to their airstrips and other locations to imply he's turning the island into a haven for Russian flights and ships. The Punisher, thanks to Microchip's computer investigations, learns of Greaves' location, but thanks to having to get his affairs in order before heading down to the island near the Keys, Frank ends up literally too late. The Marines have been sent down to invade Puerto Salvaje to put a stop to possible Communist control. Unable to get there by normal means now, the Punisher presses a small time drug dealer he once served in Nam with, into flying his air freight plane over the region, allowing him to parachute down. Once there, Frank uses an Army Colonel disguise to blend in enough, and when he's unable to sneak into Greaves' place, gets a unit of Marines to aid him in doing a search of the fugitive's villa. The disguise gets him in, and the Punisher kills plenty of armed guards and other assorted villains, but Greaves himself remains elusive. Eventually, Greaves flees to the Marines, and willingly gives himself up in exchange for protection from the Punisher. He's brought back to the US, pleads out all the charges, and gets five years in a low-security federal prison. He boards a bus to it, blabbing all about his plans to start over with his criminal empire after a few years of golfing, unaware that the bus driver is Microchip, and the guard in the back? Why, that's Frank. The Punisher finally kills Greaves. 


Goofs: The on-screen writing on the TV says the reporter's name is "Adam Wilson", yet the dialogue calls him "Randy Stern." 

Later, General Leo Besserman's name is spelled onscreen as "Beserman". 

Calendar notes: Punisher lands in Puerto Salvaje on the night of Friday of the 13th. 


------------------------------------ 

THE 'NAM #67 [April 1992] 
Writer: Chuck Dixon 
Pencils: Kevin Kobasic 
Inks: Jimmy Palmiotti 
"Noon Black as Midnight" 

Cast: 
PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE (FB only) 
PHILLIPS, MIKE "ICE MAN" 

Other characters: 
Lots of people who either get killed, or just don't appear anywhere else. 


Summary: Ice helps out an injured soldier by telling him more about a Private he knew named Castiglione, in an effort to keep his mind off his pain. 

Flashback: Frank Castiglione's third day in Viet Nam, still a teenager, fresh from Parris Island. While his unit was heading to a supply road to support a stalled convoy, they were mowed down. He reacted on automatic instinct and managed to take down the Viet Cong shooting at him and his fellow men, keeping a level head enough to get the survivors out. But in his good intentions, he got notice from his superiors at Firebase Phoebe, who liked his hard charging attitude, and was sent out on patrol, the first many "spooky" duties he would partake without question. That involved escorting two recon guys upstream, and he soon learns that the locals are under the impression the area is due for a big VC deployment and were leaving. Anyway, nobody listens to Frank, a big firebombing occurs while out in the bush, and he soon discovers those two recon guys were killed by his unit leader, guy named Daryl, who discovers his discovering, and prepares to shoot him. 

------------------------------------ 

THE 'NAM #68 [May 1992] 
Writer: Chuck Dixon 
Pencils: Kevin Kobasic 
Inks: Jimmy Palmiotti 
"The Walking Dead" 

Cast: 
PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE (FB only) 
PHILLIPS, MIKE "ICE MAN" 

Other characters: 
Lots of people who either get killed, or just don't appear anywhere else. 


Summary: Ice gets the injured soldier to the chopper, and continues telling him more about a Private he knew named Castiglione, in an effort to keep his mind off his pain. 

Flashback: Frank Castiglione learns his unit leader is selling men who want to get out of the war "deseration packages", which involve putting dummy bullets in their guns and sending them over the hill to end up getting killed by the enemy. Copying a James Coburn move, Frank takes out Daryl before he can kill him, but still ends up bashed over the head in the process. Aware that Daryl wasn't alone in this betrayal of the corps, Frank has to make his way back to Firebase Phoebe, while avoiding the VC and surviving the rigors of the jungle. While out there, he's able to confirm what the locals had been saying, and sees a build-up of troops preparing to attack the base. He finally makes it back after three days of wandering, and his commanding officer, old scarface J.F. Mikuta, nearly blows his top when Frank brings up the troop build-up, furiously denying it. After a short time of medical attention, Frank's claims come true as the Firebase is attacked. He slips out of the hosptial tent, grabs a gun, and heads to Mikuta's tent, finding all the money from the men he sold the "package" to. Frank then slipped out and became a one man army against the Viet Cong, letting his rage out on the invading forces. Mikuta takes the opportunity to shoot at Frank, but between the mortars and other bombs, he misses enough for Frank to get over to him and punish him in return, strangling him. After Phoebe gets resecured, Frank gets helicoptered off on a stretcher, with everyone aware he killed his CO... and believing him to be a traitor! 

------------------------------------ 

THE 'NAM #69 [June 1992] 
Writer: Chuck Dixon 
Pencils: Kevin Kobasic 
Inks: Jimmy Palmiotti 
"Down to the Ground" 

Cast: 
PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE (FB only) 
PHILLIPS, MIKE "ICE MAN" 

Other characters: 
Lots of people who either get killed, or just don't appear anywhere else. 

Summary: Ice visits the recovering injured soldier at the Navy Hospital, and finishes telling him more about a Private he knew named Castiglione. 

Flashback: Frank Castiglione spent weeks recuperating in a military jail cell, refusing to explain to anyone why he killed his CO. He used the time to get his body into better condition than before, thousands of sit-ups and push-ups. Eventually, he spits out the truth to a Colonel, about Mikuta and Daryl selling out AWOLs just to kill them. The Colonel offers to look into it, but asking he keep it quiet. He even gets him back in the Marines, which he soon realizes is an effort to have him get killed so Mikuta's crimes can be covered up. But Frank proved to be resourceful, having been sent to specifically die, he's given new life and purpose by surviving through punishing. And when he the rage would bleed out of him, he'd have his fellow soldiers to pick him up, his brothers, giving him a family. With the Marines, he survived the year and a month tour. But once the tour was over, the war had only begun. Now with two Silver Stars and a Medal of Honor, Frank showed up that Colonel, the one with no name, by re-upping. The only way to make wrongs like Mikuta right was for Frank to stick around, which he did, for two more tours, and as Ice believes, probably more under a different name. And that Colonel? Got assassinated in Saigon by some eagle eyed shooter. Gee, I wonder who? 


------------------------------------ 

Here's an MCP style addition for Ice... 

**PHILLIPS, MIKE "ICE MAN" 
NAM 17 
NAM 18 
NAM 19 
NAM 20 
NAM 21 
NAM 22 
NAM 23 
NAM 24 
NAM 26 
NAM 28 
NAM 29 
NAM 30 
NAM 31 
NAM 32 
NAM 33 
NAM 34 
NAM 35 
NAM 36 
NAM 37 
NAM 38 
NAM 39 
NAM 41 
NAM 62 
NAM 63 
NAM 64 
NAM 65 
NAM 67 
NAM 68 
NAM 69 
PWJ 52 
PWJ 53 
PWZ 27 
PWZ 28 
PWZ 29 
PWZ 30 


------------------------------------ 

THE PUNISHER INVADES THE 'NAM: FINAL INVASION [February 1994] 
Writer: Don Lomax 
Artist: Alberto Saichann 
"Rolling Thunder"/"Death Hole"/"Retribution" 

Cast: 
PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE (also in FB) 
CASTLE, MARIA (BTS in FB) 
CASTLE, CHRISTIE (BTS in FB) 

Other characters: 
Lots of people who either get killed, or just don't appear anywhere else. 


Summary: Frank Castle, in modern times, visits the Vietnam memorial Wall in Washington, DC. He thinks back on his days there. He gives his Congressional Medal of Freedom to a fellow vet who's in a wheelchair, feeling he deserves it more. 

Flashback: At the end of his third tour with the Marines, Frank Castiglione was refused a chance to re-up for a 4th, thanks to certain people in the higher-ups he made angry. He went back to New York, tried to live the life of family man and father for a few months, but the news reports on the war reminded him, via some idiots in a bar, that he was a soldier in need of a war. So he decided to change his name to Castle, a name he'd used before, but now officially (well, sort of). With Maria's blessing, he rejoins the Marines, and tries to maintain a low profile, though ends up excelling in sniping. Some advance infantry training jump school and special forces training at Fort Benning gave way to his becoming a Green Beret and making it back to Nam. And it only took a year and half! So, he ends up advising a group of civilian irregular defense (aka "yards") in ambush, infiltration and surveillance. Frank's out in the jungle, bumps into some VC, takes them out, and gets some assistance from one of the yards he calls Junior. Nearby, a plane is bombing the Ho Chi Minh Trail, when an enemy missile hits its wing. Though the crew parachutes out, the Viet Cong attack and end up capturing four of them. So, Frank and the yards he's attached to bury the dead and strip them of their gear, before planning on how to free the POWs. Junior informs him of an American officer turned big shot drug trader about to take a large shipment of opium. After picking up some added arsenal at the base, Frank and his squad get the drop on the drug dealer, finding him to be that Colonel no-name from last time! His chopper gets shot, but before he can follow after him, Frank's informed the four POWs are being sent to the ever popular Death Hole. 

The chopper with Colonel No-Name crashes, but Frank has to save the POWs who ended up at the Death Hole in Laos. Junior wants to go with him, and he refuses, until the yard explains how a few months prior, he himself ended up being held there. What's going on at this mysterious Death Hole? A Chinese surgeon, with Cuban elite guards, is purchasing POWs from the NVA to use as lab rats. So, the rest of this chapter is Colonel No-Name making his way from the crash site back to a base, while Frank and Junior infiltrate the Death Hole. They free the POWs by force, but in doing so, Frank ends up left behind and surrounded, soon running out of ammo. Luckily, the Chinese surgeon wants him alive to operate on. 

Soon, the four POWs are at the special forces HQ in Da Nang, being held under guard until Colonel No-Name can "debrief" them on their rescue by Frank Castle. Speaking of which, Frank gets beaten senseless by dozens of VC in the secret camp called the Death Hole, resisting their attempts to have him be used as a lab rat. After about 20 pages of him resisting and killing guys, he's finally brought before the Chinese surgeon, whose set-up seems a bit high-tech, his research meant to create super soldiers who're turned into puppets for whomever has the proper controls. Frank breaks out with help from his pal, Junior. Back at Da Nang, another Colonel, by the name of Stoner, gets wind of No-Name's interrogations, and busts in on it, sending the spooky Colonel slipping out through the window. The four POWs inform Stoner of Frank's situation, and a rescue attempt is mounted. They arrive just as Frank is carrying Junior out through the jungle, his partner having gotten wounded in the escape firefight. The Marines then wipe out the Death Hole, though the Chinese doctor's fate remains uncertain, Frank hopes he got buried in the caves. Later, Colonel Stoner wants to put Frank up for the Congressional Medal of Honor for this Laos mission, but since it'll officially have never happened, he won't get a big presentation from Nixon. Stoner also has something else for Frank, the name and location of Colonel No-Name. He tracks him to Saigon and assassinates him from afar. 


Continuity notes: Tim Tuohy, the editor, explains in the foreward that NAM 67-69 takes place before NAM 52-53, while NAM 52-53 takes place between pages 11 and 12 of this book. 

As has been noted before, this was originally to be THE NAM 84-86, but the book was canceled with 83. MCP currently lists NAM 84 for Frank, so this story supercedes that listing. 

In the majority of the main story, Frank's "Special Forces Sergeant Castle". 

Goofs: Frank JR is mentioned in the FB, not by anyone in it but by Frank during his narration. It merely slipped his mind that he hadn't been born yet in hindsight, is all. 

The cover and spine of the book fail to include the "Final Invasion" part of the title. The front page and indicia do, though. 

------------------------------------ 


PUNISHER, CAPTAIN AMERICA: BLOOD & GLORY: Book 1 of 3 [October 1992] 
Artist: Klaus Janson 
Writers: D.G. Chichester, Margaret Clark 
"We The People..." 

Cast: 
PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE 
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
BUSH, GEORGE (BTS) 
BUSH, BARBARA (with pooch, Millie) 


Other characters: 
Roger Mollech (crooked US Attorney General) 
Angela Stone (crooked secretary to Mollech) 
General Miguel Alfredo Navatilas (leader of the South American republic called Medisuela) 
Colonel Max Kalee (crooked D.I.A. operative, and his crooked men, Lt. Malev, Kain and Cane, and Theopolous) 
Carlos & Manuel (drug and arms dealers. Both die) 
Trio of skinhead drug dealers calling themselves the Die Hards (all die) 
Dr Barnes Slickster (and Bull, his associate. Both die) 
Ernest "Ernie" Braun (scientist at Smithsonian) 
Eugene Somma (White House press secretary) 
Royko (supervisor in Federal impound lot and WW2 vet) 


Summary: Captain America gets wind of an arms trade in Texas, and breaks it up, only to have one the buyers killed when one of the guns bought explodes. Cap tries to interrogate the mystery fellow called Dr Slickster who sold the guys the guns, but a Defense Intelligence Agency squad pops up, claiming he ruined their bust, and cart off the guys responsible. Cap pockets a piece of the seemingly faulty hardware, and senses the DIA group has a connection to the Doctor. Where were the guns going? Why to Medisuela, that South American country the US administration used to support but now dislikes due to its leader Navatilas' strong arm tactics and ties to drug trafficking. Ya know what? I'm sick of summarizing in real time. Let me explain it all to you right out in the open. US Attorney Mollech, despite claiming to the media that the US is against Medisuela's current ruler, is secretly dealing with Navatilas through his secretary, Angela Stone. There's a whole money to drugs to guns thing, with the intention that Navatilas and his people be given the guns in exchange for his military pressure upon neighboring countries the US doesn't like. But little does the General know, the guns have been sabotaged to fail to work after a few shots! Got it? Alright, so, Punisher in New York busts up a drug deal between Dr Slickster and a trio of skinheads calling themselves the Die Hards. There's a big ol' firefight, Punisher kills the trio, then goes after Slickster. He takes out his assistant/guard, Bull on the rooftop, and is very intrigued when Slickster gets airlifted by a government chopper. He tosses Bull off the building, then gets aboard the helicopter, which he takes down, crashing into the streets, which leads to him following Slickster down into the subways. During this, he learns the Doctor's connection to the "beltway", putting him wise to corruption in the government, which he decides to take on, no matter how high it goes. Meanwhile, Captain America has his scientist pal at the Smithsonian check the evidence he collected from the earlier raid, and he confirms the metal fatigue was deliberate. Which leads Cap to the impound lot, finding the guns being sold were checked out by Col. Kalee not long afterwards. He tracks Kalee and his DIA guys to a flight to Medisuela, and finding the arsenal aboard, Cap bails out, but not before getting spotted. Angela Stone is informed, and puts into motion a plan to pretend to be a remorseful, and flirty government worker trying to get the truth about this corruption. Thanks to a well placed "assassin", Frank is tricked into buying her story, which is more or less true on the details enough, but omitting her and her boss' roles, and instead implicating Captain America! So while Cap meets with his pal Ernie in front of the Capital Building, discussing the possible conspiracy going on, the Punisher, filled with a good level of animosity over how Cap's generation was hailed as heroes when returning home from WWII while he got blood thrown on his face and called a baby killer, snipes him down, a shot in the arm, and then in chest. 


Goofs: The indicia calls the book merely "Blood & Glory". Interestingly, in both the logo and the indicia, Punisher is referred to without "The" as part of his trademarked name. 

Angela uses the word "scarey". 

------------------------------------ 

PUNISHER, CAPTAIN AMERICA: BLOOD & GLORY: Book 2 of 3 [November 1992] 
Artist: Klaus Janson 
Writers: D.G. Chichester, Margaret Clark 
"Eternal Vigilance" 

Cast: 
PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE 
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" [ASGARDIAN] 
VISION II 
IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK 
JARVIS, EDWIN 
HAWKEYE/CLINT BARTON 
SHE-HULK/JENNIFER WALTERS 
FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM" 
DE LA FONTAINE, CONTESSA VALENTINA ALLEGRO 


Other characters: 
Roger Mollech 
Angela Stone 
General Miguel Alfredo Navatilas 
Colonel Max Kalee (and his crooked men, Lt. Malev, Kain and Cane, and Theopolous) 


Summary: So, Captain America is rushed to Walter Reade hospital, with Nick Fury shouting at all the doctors in an effort to ensure none of them are actually involved in this assassination. He's concerned for his old friend, and with fellow agents Dum Dum and the Countess, SHIELD is making sure the life saving attempts are secure. Cap overcomes his blood loss enough to inform Nick about the conspiracy, and begs for them to let him die. It appears that happens, as soon, a funeral occurs, and a casket carrying the body of Captain America is carried out of the National Cathedral amid the rain in Washington, DC (by pallbearers She-Hulk, Vision, Thor, Iron Man, Jarvis, and Hawkeye). Nick Fury takes heat for apparently delaying medical treatment for security measures and thus costing Cap his life. In a diner elsewhere, Punisher meets with an informant who casts serious doubts into the file Angela Stone gave him pinning the gun trade on Cap. Continuing to sniff around for the truth, some of Mollech's DIA guys are dispatched to track down and silence Frank. This leads to a big motorcycle chase scene, and it turns out that Captain America faked his death, and is trailing the Punisher in trying to learn his reasons for trying to kill him. Needless to say, they soon team up, neither one particularly enamored over the others' methods. They do some undercover work, pretending to be potential buyers of some of the guns, and eventually learn enough to head down to Medisuela. Angela Stone and friends learn of thier efforts, putting the General and Mallach (down there visiting for a consultation on his business partner's image, and for some human sacrificing) wise. The local military guys bomb the villa Cap and Punisher are checking out to inspect the arms, proving they too are sabotaged, and Steve ends up captured, having tossed his shield to Frank, protecting him from the blast. 


Continuity notes: Vision is in his "white body" mode in this story. Thor is standard looking Thor. Iron Man's armor is his basic gold and red just pre-War Machine style of the era when this was published. She-Hulk's in her purple outfit also common for the era, and Hawkeye's also in his basic pre-Force Works look. Jarvis has a particular number of hairs on his head, which should make chronological placement of this a breeze! (or not) 

------------------------------------ 

PUNISHER, CAPTAIN AMERICA: BLOOD & GLORY: Book 3 of 3 [December 1992] 
Artist: Klaus Janson 
Writers: D.G. Chichester, Margaret Clark 
"Establish The Blessings Of Liberty" 

Cast: 
PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE 
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
TERROR II 
BUSH, GEORGE (BTS) 

Other characters: 
Roger Mollech 
Angela Stone (dies) 
General Miguel Alfredo Navatilas (dies) 
Colonel Max Kalee (and his crooked men, Lt. Malev, Kain and Cane. All die.) 


Summary: So, Punisher, armed with Cap's shield, makes his way to the location Cap's being held at and tortured. There's lots of fighting with the local military guys, who love using the word "yanqui" in almost every other sentence. A specifically memorable moment occurs when Frank tosses the shield into the building where Cap's being held. One of the idiots holding him captive picks it up, unaware a bomb is strapped to it, which explodes, sending the shield flying off and cutting Cap out of his chains. Anyway, Frank and Steve are reunited, and soon the guns the Medisuelan army had bought from the US start acting up, killing the majority of them (Punisher had promised to be as non-lethal as possible for Cap, but, ya know how those promises go). Back in the US, Mollech uses some recorded conversations he had with General Navatilas to pin the blame of Captain America's assassination on him. He figures if he gets the US to invade Medisuela, with their sabotaged weapons, all proof of his double-dealings will be wiped away. But the President isn't going for it, meaning the Attorney General is going to have to have his DIA guys get involved instead. Navatilas isn't entirely in the dark about what's going on, thanks to his employment of the operative known as Terror, who plucks some dead guy's eye and is able to confirm what happened between Punisher, Cap, and the army. Anyway, there's lots more gunfighting, including Punisher and Captain America versus the DIA guys who're flying Apache helicopters. General Navatilas tries to reach sanctuary in a church, but gets killed before he can do so. Without any way of knowing who specifically in the government he was working with, Frank & Steve seem to be at a loss, until Terror drops by, and offers to do some reanimating of the General's parts to find this out. Though Cap's against it, Frank allows it, and the pair make it back to the US just in time to stop Mollech and Stone from jetting away with the funds they gained from the whole dealing. Though Punisher kills Angela, Cap actually snaps and is prepared to do the same to Mollech for putting so many innocents in danger with his sabotaged weaponry and drug dealing. It's Frank who pulls him back, and merely shoots off one of Mollech's kneecaps. The crooked US Attorney General is brought to justice, and the pair of veterans have one final scene together at Arlington cemetery. Seems Cap has gotten Frank off for his attempted assassination of him, and in return, Punisher gives Steve his Vietnam Combat Infantry Badge, claiming they could've used more good men like him back there, no longer holding a grudge against him. It all ends with Steve saluting Captain Castle, the two soldiers finally coming to terms with the love of the country and brotherhood for each other that they share. 


Flashbacks: 1) Captain America recalls his skinny younger self getting told he's 4-F and will have to find another way to do his part. Then getting injected by two scientists who tell him it'll either kill him or make him America's premiere fighting man. We then see him with his classic non-round shield 
, leaping through a battlefield as soldiers march behind him. 2) Another retelling of the day at the park when Punisher and his son bump into a gangland killing while flying a kite and his wife & daughter were having a picnic nearby. 3) Punisher, as Captain Castle, in Vietnam, getting blood splashed on his face when one of his troops ran ahead and stepped on a mine. There's an added shot of Punisher shooting guns in a sewer, a generic status shot, really. 

Given his Captain status, that probably puts this issue's Vietnam FB just prior to BORN 1. 

------------------------------------

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jan 2007 09:33 am    
By Enda80

The man in the wheelchair in the Nam special was actually a character from previous 'Nam issues. I posted his name here a while ago.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Jan 2007 02:32 am    
By JLH

------------------------------------ 

THE PUNISHER: DIE HARD IN THE BIG EASY [1992] 
Writer: John Wagner 
Artist: Phil Gascoine 

Cast: 
PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE (also in FB) 
MICROCHIP/LINUS LIEBERMAN (also in FB) 
MORTICIAN/BARON CEMETERY (also in FB. Presumably dies) 

Other characters: 
JC Rochechouart (FB only. Dies) 
Harold James Monsarrat (also in FB. dies) 
Gwendolene Monsarrat (his fat daughter. Also in FB) 
Jonas Jackson (also in FB) 


Summary: In the swamps of Lousiana, the Punisher is buried alive in a voodoo ceremony meant to bring him back as a zombie! How did he get in this position? He flashes back to tell us, a bust on some drug dealers goes wrong when the lead supplier gets killed. Frank wants to find out where he was getting such high quality Colombian cocaine, and has Microchip dig into the supplier's past, which leads him to New Orleans during its lengthy Carnival. Punisher forgoes festivities and tracks down the suppliers' people, leading to a gunfight, and an especially memorable "death by chicken gumbo" scene. Just as Frank is finally getting some answers, namely the name of the head guy, Harold Monsarrat, said villain hires a voodoo ceremony specialist calling himself the Mortician, to deal with him. The Punisher's taken by surprise and hit with a poison dart, paralyzing him. Mortician buries him alive, intent on making him one of the undead, bringing us up to speed with the start. But once the voodoo priest and his pals take off, a swamp dweller named Jonas Jackson, who makes a habit of digging up people Mortician buries there, rescues Frank. After he recovers, Punisher has Micro wire some money to the fellow to pay him back, and in the process learns more about Monsarrat, and old money Plantation owner with politican ambitions. He's having a Mississippi gambler themed party on a riverboat that night, so Frank decides to crash it. There's a fun running gag about Frank avoiding getting into boxes to hide, still a little shaken up from being buried alive. Anyway, he kills Monsarrat and some of his goons, makes a swim for it, then tracks down Moritican to his business, and after killing his lackeys, brings the voodoo priest himself out to where he buried him earlier, and of course, responds in kind. Jonas spots this happening, but chooses not to go and dig him up. 


Flashback: As I said, much of the first half is told in FB. 


------------------------------------ 

THE PUNISHER: ASHCAN EDITION [1994] 
Writer: Matt Friedman 
Art Director/Designer: Cathy Colbert 

Cast: 
MICHAELS, LYNN (voice only) 


Summary: Lynn, a former cop, gets a hold of the Punisher File the police have on Frank Castle. She reads a summary of his career, and reacts to various comments they make about his life. With this she's trying to learn more about the man she's emulating by taking up the mantle of the Punisher. 


Continuity Notes: Lynn mentions being a former police officer, putting this after PWJ 61. Events concerning the Punisher go up until after Suicide Run, putting this between PWJ 68 and PWJ 70 for Lynn's chronology. 


Her first appearances are missing from the MCP. Here they be. 

MICHAELS, LYNN 
**PWZ 7 
**PWZ 8 
**PWZ 9 
**PWZ 10 
PWJ 57 
PWJ 58 
... 

------------------------------------

			*	*	*

Thread 36

Posted: 12 Jan 2007 03:52 am    Post subject: Silver Surfer: Dangerous Artifacts
By JLH

I doubt this fits in the gap, but it was missing anyway. 

------------------------------------ 

SILVER SURFER: DANGEROUS ARTIFACTS [June 1996] 
Story: Ron Marz 
Art: Claudio Castellini 


Cast: 
SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD 
GALACTUS/GALAN 
THANOS 
WHITE RAVEN 


Other characters: 
Noxx (dies) 
Elder Demon (presumably dies) 
Krees and Skrulls (latter of which are killed) 
Survivor (last member of the comet inhabitor's race. Dies) 


Summary: Silver Surfer is summoned to Galactus' World Ship. A comet nearly as ancient as the devourer of worlds is returning from its ancient trip to the fringes of the unknown, and he desires its secrets, said to house the source of inexhaustable energy as harnesses by an advanced, now-extinct race. Surfer agrees to serve him once more, in an effort to get this source to thus sate Galactus' hunger without need of destroying planets any longer. Unfortunately, Thanos of Titan is also aware of this comet, and while lying low himself, knowing that his involvement would get unwanted attention, he dispatches a bounty hunting alien woman known as White Raven. Both she and the Surfer approach the comet from varying angles, Norrin finding trouble in the form of a Kree starship, and Raven in the form of a bunch of Skrulls! The Kree want the power to regain their empire, and the Skrulls believe the comet to be in their sphere of influence. Silver Surfer cripples the Kree craft but lets them live, while White Raven slaughters the Skrulls without mercy. Almost simultaniously, Raven and Surfer access the comet's mechanical core from opposite sides. Norrin meets the last survivor of the race, learning how he's spent eons safekeeping what remains of their culture. Galactus' herald's nobility in requesting the power source gains him access to it, while White Raven's forcible attempts are wasted upon a servant droid that is willing to bring her to the power source automatically! She arrives too late, as the survivor is giving the large crystal to the Silver Surfer as she enters. White Raven shoots the survivor before he can explain what horrible shame the power source is, and in doing so, shatters the crystal. As it turns out, the power source was an Elder Demon trapped within the crystal! Now that the giant horned beast is free, he destroys the servant droid, and targets Silver Surfer & White Raven. The Demon is seemingly more powerful than even Surfer's power cosmic, though that doesn't stop him from fighting to keep the creature at bay, as it is proclaiming intention on gaining revenge on his enslavement upon all the universe! Despite Raven's willingness to kill the Surfer, he saves her and aids her in escaping while he remains behind to try to stop the Demon. But inspired by his nobility, she returns in the nick of time, slamming her ship on self-destruct into the Elder Demon. The chain reaction of her engines and his power, well, it seemingly kills the Elder Demon, and in doing so, creates a new star in the heavens, which the comet is now in orbit around. Silver Surfer saves White Raven, and they go their seperate ways. Surfer returns to Galactus, informing him of the loss, and though he's disappointed, he's at least glad the power didn't fall into someone else's hands. While White Raven does the same to her boss, Thanos, and he's very unhappy with losing his grip on yet another object of power. 


Continuity notes: Surfer mentions the Shi'ar have conquered the Kree. 

This special (which was about a year or two in the making), can be placed between SS3 102 and 103, or between SS3 105 and 106, due to storylines in those which involve big changes to Galactus' status quo. 
I might even place it just after SS/Rune just to explain Thanos' desire for new power objects, but he was doing that during CP as well, so it doesn't really matter that much. 
------------------------------------

			*	*	*

Thread 37

Posted: 13 Jan 2007 09:40 pm    Post subject: Wolverine: Evilution
By Dhall

Wolverine: Evilution 
1994 

Characters Appearing: 
Wolverine 
Boom-Boom 
Professor X (appears BTS) 
Red Water Fall 
Deadman 

Logan is at the X-Mansion, when he has a dream of an explosion, in a nearby town. When he wakes, he decides that he will check it out. Boom-Boom is in town. Logan has a thought balloon, about how he let Charlie know where he was going, and that Charlie told him that X-Forces Boom-Boom has been known to hang out in Prescott. Meanwhile some of the local youths are infected by industrial waste. Red Water Fall, a local farmer sneaks up on Logan, and begins expositing helpful plot details. A kid named Jimmy has been stealing artifacts, and setting up a voodoo cult in the woods. Boom-Boom investigates his house, but Logan stops her, beiliving that she is walking into a trap. Boom-Boom sneaks back later to confront Jimmy. Jimmy wants to induct her into his cult, so they go to the nuclear plant. Jimmy has summoned up an entity called the Deadman, who is really giving the orders. Logans friend Red Water Falls goes into a dream state, and Logan protects him from attackers. Boom-Boom ends up tied up in the nuclear plant. As the boys prepare to sacrifice her, Logan goes to the plant, but is held back by Red Water Falls, who doesnt want him to shed any blood. Logan agrees, then goes in to rescue Boom-Boom. They team up to fight Deadman. Once theyve won, Logan and Boom-Boom walk off into the sunset. 


Editorial Note: This story takes place before X-Men #25. 
Logan has yellow costume, and admantium claws. Story takes place in a town (Prescott) not too far from Salem Center. Boom-Boom is a member of X-Force. 

This is where I have these listed, anyone have any suggestions? 

Boom-Boom 
XFOR 1 
XFOR 2 
XFOR 3-BTS 
S-M 16 
XFOR 4-BTS 
XFOR 5 
*W:EVIL 
XFOR 6 
XFOR 7 
XFOR 8 
XFOR 9 
XFOR 10 

Wolverine 
M/CP 116 
CA 402 
CA 403 
CA 404 
CA 405 
CA 406 
CA 407 
DRSTR3 41 
*W: EVIL 
UX@ 16/2 
X 10-FB 
X 10 
X 11 
IW 1 

Professor Xavier 
W2 63 
W2 65 
W2 58 
X@ 1 
UX 287 
*W:EVIL-BTS 
UX@ 16 
XF 78 
X 8 
XCAL 52 
UX 288 
UX 289

			*	*	*

Thread 38

Posted: 13 Jan 2007 08:21 pm    Post subject: Wolverine: Inner Fury
By Dhall

Wolverine: Inner Fury 
1992 

Characters Appearing: 
Wolverine (yellow costume) 
Nick Fury 
Whale 
Big 

The Whale, a nanotech engineer who works for Hydra, goes rogue, and escapes. Fury finds a messenger with a note with Logans name on it. Logan goes to work on the Hydra agents, who infect him with nanotech. Logan kills the agents, then meets a small man named Big, who is a bounty hunter. After a few beers, Big explains to Logan about the nanotech. Logans is being affected by it. Apparently the Whale is using Logan as a test subject, to see if he can overcome Logans healing factor with his nanotech. Logan and Big decide to go after the Whale together. They hunt down a lab, then investigate the Whales suppliers. Then they find the Whale, but it turns out that Big was the Whales project co-leader at Hydra, and that it was really Big who infected Logan. In order for Logans healing factor to supercharge, Logan kills himself with his claws (huh?) Big tries to cut up Logans body with his chainsaw, but Logan knits back together, and the chain saw bounces off the admantium, sending Big flying onto a big hook. 

It doesnt so much matter where this issue is placed, but it does have to come after W2 50, as Logan is back in the yellow costume. It also cannot occur during an ongoing storyline in W2. Other than that it doesnt matter. On my X-List I had it placed here: 
W2 66-FB 
W2 66 
W2 67 
W2 68 
X 17 
X 18 
X 19 
*W:IF 
TER 9 
TER 10 
AF 121 

Im not sure where to place it for Nick Fury. 

Perhaps in this range: 

Nick Fury 
NF3 32 
UX 286 
W2 53 
W2 61 
W2 65 
*W:IF 
DLOK2 10 
DLOK2 12 
IM 282 
IM 284 

Does anyone have any placement suggestions for this?

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jan 2007 12:59 am    
By Col_Fury

I have it a little closer to Infinity Crusade for Fury: 

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
... 
IM 292 
NF3 45 
NF3 46 
NF3 47 
*W: IF 
SSWP 17 
IC 6 
... 

Which lines up pretty nice with where you have it for Wolverine. Just after that Alpha Flight 121 appearance is the start of Infinity Crusade.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jan 2007 08:24 am    
By Dhall

That Works for me. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Thread 39

Posted: 14 Jan 2007 09:42 am    Post subject: Wolverine Killing
By Dhall

Wolverine: Killing 
1993 

Characters Appearing: 
Wolverine 
Jubilee 
Tribune Tane 
Nirissa 
Serra 
Slith 

Logan rides his motorcycle through Times Square. Then he heads back to the mansion, to crash. In his head he says goodnight to Chuck, Jeannie, Ororo, Jubilee and Scott, so presumably this issue occurs at a time when these characters should be living at the mansion. Logan has a bad dream, and tears up his furniture. Jubilee comes in, and Logan tells her that he is headed for the airport. He gets a flight for the Himalayas. 
Someone named Tribune Tane has sent the dream to which Logan is answering. (Wow how many of these Wolverine oneshots show Logan having a bad dream, and then responding to it?) Tane talks to Nirissa about Logan. She has a plan to ensure the survival of her line, by having Logan mate with her daughter. 
Logan fights some Chinese soldiers, intent on keeping him out of certain portions of Tibet, then confronts an old man, and a tree. Serra runs off in horror at her mother,s plan. 
The old man sends Logan after her. Tane betrays Nirissa by telling Slith to kill Logan. Logan brings Serra home, but Slith attacks him. Logan wins, but not before Slith poisions him. He wakes up inside with Tane and Nirissa. 
Logan is suspicious of Nirissa. He goes to visit Serra. They do like each other, Logan explains to her about the outside world. This makes Tane jealous, and he wants to fight Logan. 
Tane thinks he can use his powers to make Logan feel pain, which he does, but Logan cuts him, but does not kill him. 
Logan leaves, after leaving a note for Serra. 

This is where I have this one on my list. It has to be while Logan is in his yellow costume, has admantium claws, is living at the mansion, and where Jubilee is as well. 

Wolverine 
 
M/CP 132 
M/CP 133 
M/CP 134 
M/CP 135 
M/CP 136 
W2 72 
W2 73 
W2 74 
PWZ 19 
*W: KILLING 
X 24 
W/NF:SR 
M/CP 137 
M/CP 138 
 


JUBILEE 
 
UX 303 
W2 72 
W2 73 
W2 74 
*W: KILLING 
X 24 
UX 304 
GENX 27-FB 
X 25 
W2 75 
X@ 2 
UX 308 


			*	*	*

Thread 40

Posted: 14 Jan 2007 10:04 am    Post subject: Wolverine: Global Jeopardy
By Dhall

Wolverine: Global Jeopardy 
December 1993 

Characters Appearing: 
Wolverine (yellow costume, metal claws) 
Sub-Mariner 
Ka-Zar 
Shanna 
Zabu 
Devil Dinosaur 
Mollison, Dr. Coral 
The Conservator 

Logan is in Montana, checking out reports of disappearing animals, when a grizzly invades a camp site, then disappears. Namor is swimming along, with a group of monk seals who also disappear. Ka-Zar and Shanna are relaxing at their African estate, when they hear gunshots, and they go and save a Rhino, who then disappears. The various characters use various means to find an island in the Pacific. They show up there, along with Zabu, and proceed to accuse each other, and battle pointlessly, until the Conservator shows up. He imprisons them, and rants about how he is saving animals by bringing them to his island of Castillo. Answering Zabu, Devil Dinosaur bursts through a wall to save everyone. Shanna convinces the Conservator of the error of his ways, and he signs the island over to the authorities as a wildlife preservation park. Later, Ka-Zar, Shanna, Zabu, Namor, and Logan are in Africa at Ka-Zar and Shannas estate. They go to confront poachers, but find instead nature photographers. 


Now Ive always thought this was meant to be non-canon, but in looking it over, Im not sure if it is or isnt. Its a one off special done for the World Wildlife Fund. Theres nothing I see in it that would make it non-canon. Do Ka-Zar and Shanna have an estate in Africa? Would Devil Dinosaur be hanging around the Pacific islands, to save the day? I dont know enough about the status of these characters in the 1990s to say.

			*	*	*

Thread 41

Posted: 15 Jan 2007 01:58 am    Post subject: Ghost Rider #1/2
By JLH

(not part of the gap, but absent nonetheless) 

GHOST RIDER #1/2 (available via Wizard: The Comics Magazine #119) [2001] 
Writer: Devin Grayson 
Pencils: Trent Kaniuga 
Inks: Danny Miki 
"Corporate Hell" 

Cast: 
GHOST RIDER II/JOHNNY BLAZE 

Other characters: 
Nathan King (dies) 
Mr and Mrs Sking (Nathan's parents) 
Edsel Mohr (CEO of Maxa Corp) 
Mr. Malker (Vice President of Maxa Corp) 

Summary: So, Johnny Blaze, current bum at large, reads in a newspaper about how some big company called Maxa Corp won in a lawsuit against them by the family of one of the many people killed on their faulty new motorcycle, the Red Rocket. So, Johnny turns into the Ghost Rider, drives to the Maxa Corp building, fights his way through lots of guards, heads up the elevator, and snatches the CEO, Edsel Mohr. On the roof, he confesses to letting the explosive bikes through, since it'd be cheaper to let a few people die and lawyers handle lawsuits than to fix them. With guards and the Vice President of the company watching, Ghost Rider tosses Edsel off the side of the skyscraper, and tells them to do better. The next day, Johnny awakens on a park bench just in time to see the new CEO, the former VP Malker, ordering a recall and giving 600,000 to the family of the kid from the lawsuit earlier. Maxa Corp comes out of the whole ordeal better than ever, which Johnny seems to dislike. 


Continuity notes: This ties in with the Ghost Rider "Hammer Lane" mini-series of the time, though must take place following its 6th issue since there was no real room for this story during its run. Luckily, the whole "bum Johnny" thing fits with how he was displayed in the recent issues of the current series' flashback to this era. 

This is also one of the few times (if maybe the only) that this "Hulk-ish" version of Ghost Rider ever spoke, saying "Do better" to Malker. 


Calendar notes: Story dates include Friday, June 15, 2001 and Saturday, June 16, 2001. 

Page 1: March, 2001. Nathan King is killed when his motorcycle explodes. 
Page 2: Friday June 15, 2001. Nathan's parents are showing losing in court to Maxa Corp, with its CEO Edsel Mohr addressing the public. 
Pages 3-15: Johnny, reading the newspaper of that day at night, turns into Ghost Rider, drives to Maxa Corp building, fights guards, captures CEO Mohr, kills him in front of VP Malker. 
Page 16: Johnny, sleeping under a newspaper marked Saturday June 16 2001, is awoken by a cop, as new Maxa Corp CEO Malker passes by with media in tow. 
And then your standard sketch gallery (amusingly, one of Trent's cover art pencils is on paper marked with the Image Comics logo).

			*	*	*

Thread 42

Posted: 14 Jan 2007 08:14 pm    Post subject: Knights of Pendragon Vol.1
By Dhall

Here are listings for Knights of Pendragon Vol.1 
I didnt write up the plots, you can find those on the internet at: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/kopendragon.htm 
If you need plot descriptions. 

I put this series between Excalibur 41 and 42, as it is a period of status quo for Excalibur, Captain Britain is perfectly free to appear in this series at that point,(Excalibur is not in the middle of any crises,)and since Alysande Stuart appears, it has to come before Excalibur 55. 
I did my best to list other characters, Iron Man, Black Panther, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Hawkeye accordingly, though I am open to any placement suggestions. 

One thing that needs to be added is a generic flashback of the first Union Jack, fighting Germans on a hill somewhere, which appears in Knights of Pendragon #13. 

The Knights of Pendragon (Volume 1) 

#1 
July 1990 
Characters Appearing: 

Dai Thomas 
Captain Britain 
Kate McClellan 
Alysande Stuart 
Alistaire Staurt 
Dolph 
Grace (Francesca Lexley Grace) 
Sir Ian Chalmers 
Mister Hardacre 
Thor Kalrsen (in fb) 
Templeman 
Green Knight 

#2 
August 1990 
Characters Appearing: 
Dai Thomas 
Kate McClellan 
Jan Van Ocken 
Dolph 
Grace 
Green Knight 

#3 
Sept. 1990 
Characters Appearing: 
Dai Thomas 
Kate McClellan 
Green Knight 
Dolph 
Ricoli Mendez 
Grace (on phone) 

#4 
October 1990 

Characters Appearing: 
Grace 
Dolph 
Dai Thomas 
Green Knight 
Kate McClellan 
Alysande Stuart 
Sir Ian Chalmers (bts) 
Captain Britian 
Meggan 

#5 
Nov. 1990 

Characters Appearing: 
Kate McClellan (Katherine Elspeth McClellan) 
Dai Thomas 
Alistaire Stuart 
Alysande Stuart 
Captain Britain 

#6 
Dec. 1990 
Characters Appearing: 
Captain Britain 
Alistaire Stuart 
Alysande Stuart 
Kate McClellan 
Dai Thomas 
Grace 
Green Knight 

#7 
Jan. 1991 

Characters Appearing: 
Ben Gallagher 
Justin Meyer 
Grace 
Rowan 
Dai Thomas 
Union Jack 
Gordon Rennels 
Kate McClellan 
Captain Britain 
Dolph (real name Colin Snewing) 
Iron Man/ Tony Stark (on phone) 

#8 
Feb. 1991 
Characters Appearing: 
Cameron McClellan 
Kate McClellan 
Tench 
Albion (also in WW I fb) 
Randolph Frewin 
Dolph 
Green Knight (in WW I) 
Union Jack 
Captain Britian 
Grace 

FB: A Generic WW I fb with Albion, Also a fb to how Albion got his powers from the Green Knight 

#9 
March 1991 
Characters Appearing: 
Ben Gallagher 
Dionne Bell 
Albion 
Kate McClellan 
Dai Thomas 
Grace 
Cam McClellan 
Dolph 
Mr. Scarman 


#10 
April 1991 
Albion (also in 1915 FB) 
(also in 1915 fb) 
Captain Britain 
Kate McClellan 
Rowan Gowell 
Union Jack 
Ben Gallagher 
Randolph Frewin 
Alysande Stuart 
Grace 
Iron Man/Tony Stark 
Cam McClellan 

#11 
May 1991 
Characters Appearing: 
Grace 
Iron Man/Tony Stark 
Ben Gallagher 

Kate McClellan 
Captain Britain 
Albion 
Union Jack 
Dai Thomas 
Cam McClellan 
Mrs. A. (Tonys secretary) (on phone) 
Dolph 
Rowan 
Green Knight 

#12 
June 1991 

Characters Appearing: 
Grace 

Green Knight 
Kate McClellan 
Dolph 
Ben Gallagher 
Iron Man 
Union Jack 
Albion 
Captain Britain 
Rowan 
Cam McClellan 
Dai Thomas 

#13 
July 1991 

Characters Appearing: 
Union Jack 
Albion 
Kate McClellan 
Randolph Frewin 
Leo De Benning 
Ben Gallagher 
Justin Meyer 
Alysande Stuart 
Alistaire Stuart 
Union Jack I (in fb fighting Germans) 
Dai Thomas 
Cam McClellan 

#14 
Aug. 1991 

Characters Appearing: 
Kate McClellan 
Ben Gallagher 
Union Jack 
Mr. Fantastic 
Invisible Woman 
Black Panther 

Albion 
Richard Dorfmann 
Adam Crown 
Mr. Butler 

#15 
Sept. 1991 
Characters Appearing: 

Kate McClellan 
Ben Gallagher 
Adam Crown 
Mr. Butler 
Albion 
Richard Dorfmann 
Grace 
Union Jack 
Black Panther 

Brent McCinley 
Dolph 
Les Buchanan 

#16 
Oct. 1991 

Characters Appearing: 
Union Jack 
Black Panther 
Dolph 
Kate McClellan 
Ben Gallagher 
Brent McCinley 

Albion 
Grace 
Adam Crown 

#17 
Nov. 1991 
Characters Appearing: 
Adam Crown 
Kate McClellan 
Ed Lawless 
Ben Gallagher 
Grace 
Albion 
Jenks 
Green Knight 
Black Panther 
Red Lord 
Dolph 

#18 
Dec. 1991 

Characters Appearing: 
Kate McClellan 
Dolph 
Black Panther 
Iron Man 
Hawkeye 
Captain Britain 
Dai Thomas 
Albion 
Union Jack 
Ben Gallagher 
Adam Crown 
Red Lord 
Green Knight 
Grace 






Dai Thomas 
XCAL 35 
XCAL 40 
XCAL 41 
*KOP 1 
*KOP 2 
*KOP 3 
*KOP 4 
*KOP 5 
*KOP 6 
*KOP 7 
*KOP 9 
*KOP 11 
*KOP 12 
*KOP 13 
*KOP 18 
XCAL 44 
XCAL 45 
XCAL 49 

UNION JACK III/JOEY CHAPMAN 
CA 253 
CA 254 
M/CP 42/3-FB 
M/CP 42/3 
COC 1-BTS 
COC 2-BTS 
COC 3 
N 12-FB 
N 11 
*KOP 7 
*KOP 8 
*KOP 10 
*KOP 11 
*KOP 12 
*KOP 13 
*KOP 14 
*KOP 15 
*KOP 16 
*KOP 18 
[KOP2 9] 
M/CP 122/4 
[KOP2 10] 
TB 25 
X:HC 3 

ALBION/PETER HUNTER 
*KOP 8-FB 
*KOP 8-FB 
*KOP 10-FB 
*KOP 8 
*KOP 9 
*KOP 10 
*KOP 11 
*KOP 12 
*KOP 13 
*KOP 14 
*KOP 15 
*KOP 16 
*KOP 17 
*KOP 18 
[KOP2 9] 
M/CP 122/4 
[KOP2 10] 

CAPTAIN BRITAIN 
 
XCAL 40 
XCAL 41 
XF@ 6 
Q 28-FB 
XCAL:P 
XCAL:AA 
*KOP 1 
*KOP 4 
*KOP 5 
*KOP 6 
*KOP 7 
*KOP 8 
*KOP 10 
*KOP 11 
*KOP 12 
*KOP 18 
XCAL 42 
XCAL 43 
 

STUART, BRIG. ALYSANDE 
XCAL 6 
XCAL 9 
XCAL 10 
X:TF 3 
XCAL 11 
XCAL:MM 
XCAL 11 
XCAL 27 
UX 253 
UX 254 
UX 255-BTS 
XCAL 30 
XCAL 34 
UX@ 15 
UX 278 
XCAL:AA 
*KOP 1 
*KOP 4 
*KOP 5 
*KOP 6 
*KOP 10 
*KOP 13 
XCAL 55 

STUART, DR. ALISTAIRE 
 
XCAL 34 
XCALGN 
S-H2 26-FB 
S-H2 26 
XCAL 37 
XCAL 38 
XCAL 40 
XCAL 41 
XCAL:P 
*KOP 1 
*KOP 5 
*KOP 6 
*KOP 13 
XCAL 44 
XCAL 47 

IRON MAN 
IM 267 
ASM@ 25 
PPTSS@ 11 
WOSM@ 7 
M/CP 78/3 
XCAL 37 
XCAL 38 
XCAL 39 
*KOP 7 
*KOP 10 
*KOP 11 
*KOP 12 
M/SH3 8/3 
IM 268 
IM 269 
IM 270 
IM 271 
IM 272 
IM 273 
IM 274 
IM 275 
IM 275/2 
IM 275 
IM 276 
IM 277 
*KOP 18 
IG 2 

BLACK PANTHER 
MK3 14-BTS 
NF3 12-BTS 
ASM@ 25 
PPTSS@ 11 
WOSM@ 7 
*KOP 14 
*KOP 15 
*KOP 16 
*KOP 17 
*KOP 18 
M/FAN 60 
IG 2-BTS 
DAMCON3 4 
A 335 

HAWKEYE 
CA 383 
A 329 
AWC 69-FB 
AWC 69 
*KOP 18 
IG 1 
IG 2-BTS 
IG 6 

MEGGAN 
XCAL 37 
XCAL 38 
XCAL 39 
XCAL 40 
XCAL 41 
XCAL:P 
XCAL:AA 
*KOP 4 
XCAL 42 
XCAL 43 

Mr. FANTASTIC 
 
UX 272 
M/CP 68/4 
AF 92 
AF 93-FB 
AF 93 
AF 94 
FF 347 
FF 348 
FF 349 
PPTSS 177 
Q 20 
*KOP 14 
IM 275 
WOSM 76 
N 13 
FF@ 24 
A 177-BTS 
FF@ 24 
Q 23 
IG 2-BTS 
 

INVISIBLE WOMAN 
 
AF 92 
AF 93-FB 
AF 93 
AF 94 
FF 347 
FF 348 
FF 349 
Q 20 
*KOP 14 
WOSM 76-BTS 
N 13 
FF@ 24 
NW@ 1/8 
IG 2-BTS 
A 332 
A 333 
 

**MCCLELLAN, KATHERINE ELSPETH KATE 
KOP 1 
KOP 2 
KOP 3 
KOP 4 
KOP 5 
KOP 6 
KOP 7 
KOP 8 
KOP 9 
KOP 10 
KOP 11 
KOP 12 
KOP 13 
KOP 14 
KOP 15 
KOP 16 
KOP 17 
KOP 18 

**MCCLELLAN, CAM 
KOP 8 
KOP 9 
KOP 10 
KOP 11 
KOP 12 
KOP 13 

**CROWN,ADAM 
KOP 14 
KOP 15 
KOP 16 
KOP 17 
KOP 18 

**GALLAGHER,BEN 
KOP 7 
KOP 9 
KOP 10 
KOP 11 
KOP 12 
KOP 13 
KOP 14 
KOP 15 
KOP 16 
KOP 17 
KOP 18 

**GRACE, FRANCESCA LEXLEY 
KOP 1 
KOP 2 
KOP 3 
KOP 4 
KOP 6 
KOP 7 
KOP 8 
KOP 9 
KOP 10 
KOP 11 
KOP 12 
KOP 15 
KOP 16 
KOP 17 
KOP 18 

**CHALMERS,SIR IAN 
KOP 1 
KOP 4-BTS 

**GREEN KNIGHT 
KOP 8-FB 
KOP 1 
KOP 2 
KOP 3 
KOP 4 
KOP 6 
KOP 11 
KOP 12 
KOP 17 
KOP 18 

**RED LORD 
KOP 17 
KOP 18 

**DOLPH/COLIN SNEWING 
KOP 1 
KOP 2 
KOP 3 
KOP 4 
KOP 7 
KOP 8 
KOP 9 
KOP 11 
KOP 12 
KOP 15 
KOP 16 
KOP 17 
KOP 18 

**FREWIN, RANDOLPH 
KOP 8 
KOP 10 
KOP 13 

**GOWELL, ROWAN 
KOP 7 
KOP 10 
KOP 11 
KOP 12 

**MEYER, JUSTIN 
KOP 7 
KOP 13 

**MCCINLEY, BRENT 
KOP 15 
KOP 16 

**DORFMANN, RICHARD 
KOP 14 
KOP 15

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jan 2007 05:14 am    
By Enda80

Pikced up Knights of Pendragon I#5 cheap today, and saw that on page 6, they are talking about Dai Thomas; they show a picture of him, much 
younger, with his daughter Ruthie and his wife Valerie. They mention 
that Dai got his reputation as "the hero hater" because his wife died in 
a battle between metahumans. 

I remembered that in the much earlier published The Daredevils#7 and the Daredevils#8, they show a copy of The Guardian (a real-life British 
newspaper) that gives a story on Sir James Jaspers. In Daredevils#8, 
they show this newspaper again, and in the second column, you can see 
that the reporters quote Dai Thomas in the story. Dai Thomas mentions 
that his wife died in a battle that took place in New York between the 
Hulk and an unidentified "super-villain". 

As noted, one of these issues reveals that Dai Thomas' spouse, who died in a fb in Captain Britain II#1, was named Valerie. The fb in CB showed the Hulk and Thor. 

Has this ever been shown anywhere else? It would be fun if we could nail it down. Did Dai Thomas already have a reputation as the hero hater in 
those 1970's published Captain Britain stories? I know Marvel Preview#3 
was his first appearance. Then again, there are probably a lot of Hulk 
stories that take place in New York before any point in time we could 
nail things down to as having taken place in.

			*	*	*

Thread 43

Posted: 13 Jan 2007 04:01 pm    Post subject: Union Jack, vol 2, 1-4
By Frederic Krier

Union Jack vol.2, no.1 
November 2006 

Enemies of the crown 
W: Christos N. Gage P: Michael Perkins I: Andrew Hennessy 

Appearances: Union Jack III (Joey Chapman), Sabra (Ruth Bat-Seraph), Contessa Allegra Valentina de la Fontaine, Arabian Knight IV (Navid Hashim), Phil Gavin, Farouk al-Fasaud, Sully and other unnamed co-workers of Joey Chapman, Georges Batroc, Maximilian Zaran, Machete III, three unidentified vampires, unidentified RAID agents, unidentified MI5 employees, unidentified TV speakers and cameramen, unidentified bystanders 
In FB only: Joey Chapman's father (unnamed), Wolverine (James Howlett), unidentified HYDRA agents 
On TV screen only: the Fantastic Four (Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Human Torch, Thing), Shockwave (Lancaster Sneed), Firebrand III (Richard Dennison), Ecstasy (Rene Daladier), Boomerang (Fred Myers), Crossfire (William Cross), Jack O' Lantern II (Steven Mark Levins) [see comments], Jackhammer, Corruptor (Jackson Day), [An?]drew Marr ([lo?]cal editor, on TV) 

Synopsis: Pg. 1, p1-2: One day. London, England. Darkening sky. Joey is working at his day job (painting a street lamp), then leaves for his night job. 
Pg. 1, p3: Later. The same day. At home, while changing to Union Jack, reminisces how his co-worker Sully reminds him of his dad. 
Pg. 1, p4-5: FB to Joey's dad telling young Joey about the value of hard work. 
Pg. 1, p6: Joey continues getting his costume on. 
Pg. 2-4, p3: Later the same night. Union Jack kills the three last remaining vampires in London. The last one causes him some problems, but he is beheaded by an MI5 helicopter. MI5 tells UJ that they would like to have a word with him. 
Pg. 4, p4-Pg. 5, p2: The next morning. Thames House Headquarters, MI5. Reddish sky, presumably indicating that it's early morning. No leaves on trees. Phil Gavin tells UJ about RAID (Radically Advanced Ideas in Destruction), the splinter group of A.I.M., which is trying to fill the space opened by the recent decimation of HYDRA by Wolverine. 
Pg. 5, p3: FB to Wolverine slashing his way through HYDRA agents (Enemy of the State storyline presumably) 
Pg. 5, p4- Pg.8, p1: Gavin informs UJ that RAID plan multiple strikes, then introduces him to the agents assigned by Britain's allies: Sabra, a new Arabian Knight and the Contessa, who tells UJ she was sent off to the Hinterlands the moment Nick Fury went underground. Sabra and Arabian Knight start arguing about Saudi Arabia's financing of terrorist activites. UJ stops the bickering. Gavin shows them a faraday cage containing al-Fasaud, who has been captured last night by an MI5 operative, a telepath according to al-Fasaud. Al-Fasaud then goes on to inform the heroes about RAID's plans, while we see a picture of the FF on a TV screen in the background. 
Pg. 8, p2: FB to al-Fasaud tempering with airport security systems to let an unidentified RAID terrorist get into the country. 
Pg.8, p3: al-Fasaud proceeds to tell the names of the enhanced individuals employed by RAID. 
Pg. 8, p4-13: headshots of Shockwave, Firebrand, Ecstasy, Boomerang, Zaran, Machete, Crossfire, Jack O' Lantern, Jackhammer, and the Corruptor. 
Pg. 8, p14: al-Fasaud announces that the attack will take place at four P.M. today. 
Pg. 9-10, p4: Later. The same day. Sky still reddish. In a meeting room, UJ suggests to MI5 to contact the Avengers or the Fantastic Four. Gavin tells him they're off on one of their secret infinity wars or whatever. Also their British operatives, from Captain Britain to Micromax are unavailable. UJ wants to proceed to evacuate the city, but Gavin refuses. UJ and his allies then leave Gavin to fight the terrorists. 
Pg.10, p5: FB to Batroc fighting some sort of giant in a robe [?] as the Contessa remembers that Batroc has turned against his partners in the Brigade before to stop them from carrying out WMD attacks. 
Pg. 10, p6: Later. The same day.UJ and his allies fly over London in one of MI5's flying cars. 
Pg. 11-12: Later. The same day. UJ and his allies confront Batroc at a London hotel, while he was occupied flirting with the hotel's receptionist. Batroc isn't willing to betray his partners but tells the heroes to feel free to call though, while he manages to escape. UJ discovers that Batroc left his mobile phone on the receptionist's desk, which already shows Zaran's phone number on the screen. 
Pg. 13-14: Later. The same day. Back at MI5 headquarters. UJ and the Contessa discuss his break-up with Spitfire (who is currently on holiday on some greek island) and about her lack of contacts to Nick Fury lately. Arabian Knight and Sabra nearly start a fight about the role of women in society. Sabra tells him she lost her son due to a palestinian attack. Just then, an MI5 employee interrupts with information that they've got a location: 500 metres from the Houses of Parliament. 
Pg. 15-19: Ten minutes later. The same day. Houses of Parliament. UJ and his allies fight Zaran, Machete and non super-powered RAID agents. They quickly take all of them out. Zaran tells them that parliament already had been evacuated. 
Pg. 20: Later. Noon the same day (or four hours left to 4 PM). Standing on the roof of the HoP, UJ discusses their strategy with his allies. He then spots a TV crew. 
Pg. 21-22: Later. The same day. Back at MI5 headquarters. While we see BBC footage on a TV screen of UJ telling Londoners about the possible attacks, Gavin tells the incoming UJ, that his playing the protector of the common people has caused attacks by RAID on the London Tower Bridge, Thames Tunnel and Heathrow Airport, which are shown on other TV screens at that precise moment. 

Union Jack vol. 2, no. 2 
December 2006 

London Falling, part 2 
W: Christos N. Gage P: Michael Perkins I: Andrew Hennessy 

Appearances: Union Jack III (Joey Chapman), Sabra (Ruth Bat-Seraph), Contessa Allegra Valentina de la Fontaine, Arabian Knight IV (Navid Hashim), Shockwave (Lancaster Sneed), Firebrand III (Richard Dennison), Boomerang (Fred Myers), Crossfire (William Cross), Jack O' Lantern II (Steven Mark Levins), Jackhammer, Corruptor (Jackson Day), Bombshell (Wendy Conrad), Knickknack (Nicholas Grossmann), Oddball (Elton Healy?), Ringleader (Charles Last), Tenpin (Alvin Healy), unidentified MI5 employees, unidentified bystanders 

Synopsis: Pg. 1: The same day. Jack O' Lantern, Jackhammer and Shockwave brutally assault a train in the Thames Bridge tunnel. 
Pg. 2-3: Union Jack, Arabian Knight, Sabra and the Contessa de la Fontaine fly to rescue. UJ orders Sabra to take Tower Bridge, the Knight and the Contessa to go to Heathrow, while he'll handle the tunnel. UJ jumps off the MI5 flying car, into the river. 
Pg. 4-11 p2: UJ fights the three super-villains in the tunnel. He manages to take out Jackhammer and Shockwave. Then MI5 comes to the rescue. UJ hits Jack O' Lantern with one of their flying cars. Jack O' Lantern is taken out by the explosion. UJ tells MI5 to extradite Jack O' Lantern to a country with death penalty and borrows another flying car from them to see a lady about a bridge. 
Pg. 11 p3- Pg. 16: Later. The same day. Tower Bridge. Sabra is fighting against Crossfire and the Death-Throws. Sabra captures Tenpin. UJ flys in with the flying car, saves Sabra from an attack by Knickknack and Ringleader, but the car is obliterated by one of Bombshell's bombs. Sabra and UJ take out Oddball and Crossfire, who falls into the river and has probably drowned. Bombshell surrenders. 
Pg. 17-22: Later. The same day. The Arabian Knight and the Contessa fight off Boomerang and Firebrand, while RAID agents hijack a plane. The hijackers are knocked out by the incoming Sabra and UJ, and UJ manages to land the plane. On leaving the plane through the front window of the cockpit, he faces the Corruptor, who has taken control over his three allies. 

Union Jack vol. 2, no. 3 
January 2007 

London Falling, part 3 
W: Christos N. Gage P: Michael Perkins I: Andrew Hennessy 

Appearances: Union Jack III (Joey Chapman), Sabra (Ruth Bat-Seraph), Contessa Allegra Valentina de la Fontaine, Arabian Knight IV (Navid Hashim), Captain America I (Steve Rogers), Corruptor (Jackson Day), Ecstasy (Rene Daladier), Phil Gavin, Farouk al-Fasaud, unidentified MI5 employees, a Dreadnought robot, unidentified medical staff, unidentified bystanders 
In FB only: Nick Fury, Oddball 
BTS: Shockwave (Lancaster Sneed) 

Synopsis: Pg. 1-8: The same day. UJ is attacked by his mind-controlled allies. He directs Sabra's and the Arabian Knight's attack against the Corruptor, who is knocked out. Nonetheless, his allies continue fighting UJ. At that point, he is called on his mobile by Phil Gavin. UJ takes out the Contessa with a headbutt and manipulates Sabra and the Knight to fight each other. Sabra wins, and attacks UJ again, who takes her out by cutting off her oxygen supply with a capsule from his belt poaches. 
Pg. 9-10: Later. The same day. UJ, still at the airport, reports back to Gavin, who is surprised to hear that UJ managed to beat his three mind-controlled allies. A taxi driver, who was on the hijacked plane, thanks UJ for the rescue and his looking out for the common people. UJ is cheered by the crowd at Heathrow airport. 
Pg. 11, p1: FB (on TV screen): Sabra and UJ fight Oddball on Tower Bridge (#2). 
Pg. 11, p2- Pg. 17: Later. The same day. Back at MI5 headquarters. UJ and Gavin argue a bit about the happenings of the day, and Gavin reminds him Ecstasy is still on the loose. Coincidentally, at that very moment, Ecstasy attacks MI5 headquarters, in order to liberate all the captured RAID agents. Gavin suggests using the Arabian Knight's scimitar to take her out. UJ rushes off to the infirmary, where his three allies have been taken after the battle at Heathrow. Arabian Knight is in no shape to fight, and his scimitar's magic only works when he is using it himself. To pass the magic on to UJ to fight off Ecstasy, he suggests that UJ should kill him and take the sword. UJ refuses and leaves the infirmary. He decides to call Avengers Tower in New York, even if the Avengers are away. Surprisingly enough, Captain America responds who tells him he's alone at the tower, and that Iron Man and Spider-Man are on their way to Washington. 
In New York, Captain America looks at some info about Ecstasy that the Avengers got from Doctor Strange and tells UJ how she was taken out by Dagger's bio-energy lightning bolts. 
UJ has an idea to fight off Ecstasy and tells Cap, that they're is no need to send someone over to London. He and Gavin confront Ecstasy next to al-Fasaud's faraday cage, and UJ takes her out after tricking her into absorbing al-Fasaud, shutting down her darkness powers. 
Pg. 18, p.1-2: Shortly. The same day. Gavin informs the assembled heroes that Ecstasy's attack caused 16 deaths, and that she teleported Shockwave away before UJ stopped her. He then tells them that MI5's interrogators found out that RAID's weapon of mass destruction is actually an assembled dreadnought. 
Pg. 18, p.3: FB to Nick Fury fighting a Dreadnought in Strange Tales, vol. 1, no.154. 
Pg. 19-20: Gavin and the assembled heroes discuss if Arabian Knight is fit enough to help facing off the Dreadnought, when they see a bomb blast outside. 
Pg. 21-22: UJ, Arabian Knight, Sabra and the Contessa fly out to check. They are nearly hit by a red bus and find a giant dreadnought rampaging on Trafalgar Square. 

Union Jack vol. 2, no. 4 
February 2007 

London Falling, part 4 
W: Christos N. Gage P: Michael Perkins I: Andrew Hennessy 

Appearances: Union Jack III (Joey Chapman), Sabra (Ruth Bat-Seraph), Countessa Allegra Valentina de la Fontaine, Arabian Knight IV (Navid Hashim), Phil Gavin, Amelia [Gavin's secretary], Micromax (Scott Wright), a Dreadnought, unidentified construction workers, unidentified MI5 employees, unidentified reporters and TV speakers, unidentified bystanders 
In FB only: Ecstasy (Rene Daladier) 
BTS: Members of New Excalibur, Agent Scott 

Synopsis: Pg. 1-12: The same day. UJ, Arabian Knight, Sabra and the Contessa fight the Dreadnought. Sabra is taken out twice, and the Arabian Knight is easily pushed aside by the Dreadnought. After some construction workers hit the Dreadnought with a wrecking ball, UJ manages to take him out by stabbing the Dreadnought's liquid nitrogen tank with a union jack's flagpole. 
Pg. 13: Later. The same day. While the BBC news show footage of the battle against the Dreadnought, UJ is taken care of in the MI5 infirmary. He receives the visit of Micromax, who reveals that he was in the middle east with Excalibur, following a lead on RAID that turned out to be bollocks. 
Pg. 14-15: Later. The same day. The Contessa, the Arabian Knight and Sabra all leave. Gavin congratulates UJ for his performance, and tells him Agent Scott will give him a ride home. 
Pg. 16, p1-3: Later. The same day. UJ undresses, watches Gavin on TV declining to comment the director general's policies, and falls asleep. 
Pg. 16, p4-6: The next day. UJ wakes up as he hears a report on TV that the resignation of the director general of MI5 has been demanded during the whole morning, and that Gavin should be next in line to take his seat. He curses himself for the bloody idiot he is. 
Pg. 17-18: Later. The same day. While Gavin is informed that the Director General's resignation will be announded at 3 PM. At that moment he is confronted by an angry UJ, and asks the other MI5 employees to leave the room. UJ tells him about all the inconsistencies  for instance, Gavin told him the Avengers were on a mission, but he reached Captain America on first try. UJ accuses Gavin of planning RAID's attacks. 
Pg. 19, p1: FB to Gavin giving information to Micromax, to send him and Excalibur away, so that they wouldn't be present to protect London. 
Pg. 19, p2: UJ accuses Gavin of staging the attacks to make the current director general look bad and take her place. 
Pg. 19, p3: FB: Ectasy, seen with her darkness powers intact. UJ reminds Gavin that he was warning him about her, just as she was about to attack, and knew all about the powers of their opponents. 
Pg. 19, p4  pg.22: Gavin finally admits that UJ, threatens him that exposing this, without having substantial proof, would destroy his relationship to MI5, and finally inviting him to join him, even proposing to leave his working class living standards behind, if he did collaborate. UJ responds by punching Gavin in the face, and then presenting him to the reporters outside. 

Comments: 
- Yes, the first part is called Enemies of the Crown, the rest of the chapters London Falling, parts 2,3 and 4. 
- I presume that this Jack O' Lantern is Steven Mark Levins, who first appeared in Captain America I #396, and who is not identical with Maguire Beck AKA Mad Jack (see his profile in the All-New OHOTMU # 5). Presumably, he is the Jack O' Lantern that gets shot by the Punisher in Civil War #5. 
- The Machete appearing in this mini is the original Machete's brother and I believe he first appeared in Great Lakes Avengers #2. I have him as Machete III, but he could actually be Machete II, if the original Machete, who was reported as killed by Zeitgeist in Captain America I #442, in fact survived and is identical with the Machete, who appeared afterwards and got killed in U.S.Agent II #1. 
- As it seems (I don't have that issue) Oddball/Elton Healy got killed in Wolverine II 167, so this might be a successor. 
- Both Phil Gavin and RAID first appeared in the Twenty-First Century Blitz storyline in Captain America V, #18-21. 
- The Arabian Knight who appears here does not appear to be identical to the one who recently appeared in Black Panther IV #15, which makes him Arabian Knight IV, if one includes the historical Arabian Knight who was mentioned in Incredible Hulk #257 (but isn't listed in the MCP). 
- not sure where Excalibur's secret mission to the Middle East with Micromax fits in the New Excalibur series. 
- What story is referenced in #1, page 10? Who is Batroc fighting in the FB? 

The series takes place over three days: Day 1: #1, Pg. 1-4, p3; Day 2: #2, Pg. 4, p4- #4, Pg. 16, p3; Day 3: #3, Pg. 16, p4- Pg. 22. 
The second day is the same day that Tony Stark and Peter Parker fly to Washington in Amazing Spider-Man #531-532, which makes it easy to place this series. 

Attempts at placement: 

* ARABIAN KNIGHT IV/NAVID HASHIM [see comments] 

UJ2 1 
UJ2 2 
UJ2 3 
UJ2 4 

BATROC/GEORGES BATROC 

TB2 8 
UJ2 1 
TB 103 

BOMBSHELL/WENDY CONRAD 

NW@2 
[CA 410-414?] 
UJ2 2 

BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 

[UNDERWORLD 3-4 ?] 
UJ2 2 
TB 103 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 

CA5 18 
CA5 19 
CA5 20 
CA5 21 
[...] 
UJ2 3 
[...] 
[CIVIL WAR] 

CORRUPTOR/JACKSON DAY/ANDREW KAPPELHOFF 
SM:BREAKOUT 5 
NW3 6 
UJ2 2 
UJ2 3 

CROSSFIRE/WILLIAM CROSS 

SM:BREAKOUT 5 
UJ2 2 

DE LA FONTAINE, CONTESSA VALENTINA ALLEGRO 

SECRET WAR 3-FB 
UJ2 1 
UJ2 2 
UJ2 3 
UJ2 4 

DREADNOUGHT [giant version] 

UJ2 3 
UJ2 4 

ECSTASY/MME RENEE DALADIER 

NW 34 
UJ2 3 

* FASAUD/FAROUK AL-FASAUD 

FF 308-FB 
FF 308 
FF 309 
FF 310 
UJ2 1-FB 
UJ2 1 
UJ2 3 

FIREBRAND III/RICHARD L. DENNISON 

A3 27 
UJ 2 2 

* GAVIN, PHIL 

CA5 19 
UJ2 1 
UJ2 3 
UJ2 4 

JACKHAMMER 

[CA 412-413?] 
UJ2 2 

JACK O' LANTERN II/STEVEN MARK LEVINS (see comments) 

GRAVITY 3 
UJ2 2 
[CIVIL WAR] 

KNICK KNACK/NICHOLAS GROSSMANN 

[CA 411-414?] 
UJ2 2 

MACHETE III (see comments) 

TB2 8 
UJ2 1 
[CIVIL WAR] 

MICROMAX/SCOTT WRIGHT 

A3 46 
UJ2 4-FB 
UJ2 4 

ODDBALL/ELTON HEALY? (see comments) 

UJ2 2 

RINGLEADER/CHARLES LAST 

ASPOT 25 
UJ2 2 

SABRA/RUTH BAT-SERAPH 

XCAL3 5 
UJ2 1 
UJ2 2 
UJ2 3 
UJ2 4 
[CIVIL WAR: X-MEN] 

SHOCKWAVE/LANCASTER SNEED 

A4 4-FB 
UJ2 2 
UJ2 3-BTS 

TENPIN/ALVIN HEALY 

TB 53 
UJ2 2 

UNION JACK III/JOEY CHAPMAN 

UJ2 1-FB 
CA 253 
[...] 
CA5 18 
CA5 19 
CA5 20 
CA5 21 
UJ2 1 
UJ2 2 
UJ2 3 
UJ2 4 

ZARAN/MAXIMILIAN ZARAN 

TB2 8 
UJ2 1 
T 103

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jan 2007 04:11 pm    
By Somebody

Frederic Krier wrote: 
>>>
[An?]drew Marr ([lo?]cal editor, on TV) 
<<<

Andrew Marr, yeah. And that would be Political Editor, since that was his job (he's a real guy) @ BBC News until last year (he semi-quit to write books, but he still hosts a weekly political show for them). Gage was just a bit out-of-date. 


Frederic Krier wrote:
>>> 
- not sure where Excalibur's secret mission to the Middle East with Micromax fits in the New Excalibur series. 
<<<

No sign of anything in the Tieri issues (haven't read most of the Claremont issues & don't want to), and, given the way the Black Knight subplot implies the two main arcs there are pretty continuous, you should have it before NExc #10 or after #15. Probably before, with Civil War'n'all.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Jan 2007 09:48 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the review, Frederic. I have no clue about that giant in a robe. Should we assume that this FB with Batroc occurs shortly before this series?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jan 2007 12:55 am    
By Frederic Krier

No, probably not. It's a reference to a past storyline where Batroc turned against his teammates. Here's the quote: 
Contessa de la Fontaine: "If I remember from his S.H.I.E.L.D. files, Batroc's turned against his partners before to stop them from carrying out W.M.D. attacks". 
It seems to be a reference to a past storyline (and since this mini was quite continuity conscious, it probably is), but I have no idea what it is. Does anybody have a clue?

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jan 2007 01:10 am    
By Frederic Krier

Wait, I think I know now which storyline it refers to: Captain America 251-252, where Batroc allies with Mr. Hyde, but turns against him because Hyde wants to blow up New York. So, the giant guy would be Mr. Hyde, and the "robe" actually his cape.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jan 2007 06:49 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

That's great, Frederic. Thanks much!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 44

Posted: 30 Dec 2006 02:16 am    Post subject: Wolverine and the Punisher: Damaging Evidence
By JLH

WOLVERINE AND THE PUNISHER: DAMAGING EVIDENCE #1 [October 1993] 
Writer: Carl Potts 
Artist: Gary Erskine 
"The Punisher, Wolverine in: Damaging Evidence (Part 1 of 3)" 

Cast: 
PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE" (also in FB) 
WOLVERINE/"LOGAN"/JAMES HOWLETT 
KINGPIN/WILSON FISK 
PIERCE, DONALD 
REESE, MURRAY 
BONEBREAKER (Voice Only) 
PRETTY BOY (Voice Only) 
DAMAGE 
SNIPER II/VON BURIAN 
MICROCHIP/LINUS LIEBERMAN (FB only) 

Other characters: 
Mr Phillips (Kingpin's top assassin. Dies) 
Loomis (drug dealer who works for Kingpin. Dies) 
Dr Daltry (Einstein-looking scientist of Kingpin's) 
Kingpin's unnamed female Arranger (blonde) 


Summary: On a ranch in Mexico, Kingpin's current top assassin, called Mr Phillips, kills one of the big man's dealers for helping himself to the "goods". Of course, the Punisher has shown up, and deals with the assassin just as quickly, putting him under fire from others at the ranch, which happens to be one of Kingpin's major drug processing centers. Meanwhile, a helicopter bringing in the man called Sniper, still recovering from his battle with (coincidentally) the Punisher, in for a rest at the ranch, spots Frank having his firefight and joins in, unaware his main bane is the one he's shooting upon. Punisher shoots one of the ranch-dwellers and is a bit disturbed when his young son and wife witness his killing the man before he could kill him. The boy even picks up his father's gun to fire, but the mother stops him. After taking a shot in the Kevlar by Sniper, Frank escapes on horseback. He realizes his stupid mistake, and recalls Microchip's analysis of why he's so dead set on taking down Kingpin lately, as it's the anniversary of Conchita's death. 

Elsewhere, Kingpin learns of Punisher's recent strike against him, another in a week long string of similar ones by the same man. Having lost millions thanks to Frank in the past year, Kingpin asks his current Arranger about the status of Damage. When told full completetion isn't possible, he brings up a high-tech group of assassins called the Reavers. They've got a history with Punisher, too, and through his law enforcement moles, managed to contact their leader, Donald Pierce. 

In Hong Kong, Wolverine has been lured into a trap by the Reavers, believing it to be an old friend contacting him. On the docks, he faces Reese, and manages to knock the cyborg into the prop blades of a ship. He steals Reese's headset, and overhearing Pretty Boy and Bonebreaker talking to Pierce, learns of the new plot to take on Punisher. Logan sets out to help out yet another old friend. 

So, Pierce supplies Kingpin the tech to complete Damage's repairs, which he'll give him for free (a several million dollar value) if he can deliever Punisher's head to him in ten days. The deal is made, and in the next few days, Damage is up and ready to fight, killing a guy dressed up like Punisher in preparation. One last surgery will complete his upgrades, and allow him to finally get revenge on Punisher. 

By the time Wolverine lands at JFK airport, it's all over the news that the Punisher has killed innocent bystanders during a shoot-out with a drug gang. Logan knows from experience this is unlike Frank, and plans to help prove his innocence and help him out with the Reavers, but if he's finally crossed the line and actually gone sour, well, he'll deal with him as well. Unfortunately, the stink of New York makes scent tracking of Frank nearly impossible. Elsewhere, Frank watches the news about the reports of Punisher going over the edge. He sets out, in disguise, to check on the crime scene for evidence of who it is that's impersonating him. As he arrives, someone is watching him, aware he's there, and has him under the scope of a gun... 

Flashbacks: One to prior to the beginning of the issue. Punisher and Microchip. Micro notes why Frank's been stepping up his takedown of Kingpin's operations as the anniversary of Conchita's death happens to be that same week. 

Continuity notes: Sniper is said to be still recuperating from his last encounter with the Punisher. Damage is at 85% complete in repairs from his last battle with Punisher. And the Reavers are said to have fought Punisher to a stalemate in Brooklyn, putting this after those encounters at the least. 

Donald Pierce is shown living in the Ghost Town base in the Australian outback. 

Wolverine mentions his past meetings with Punisher as being "in the heart of Africa" (which would be PWJ 5 & 6) and "against Blackheart" (Wolverine/Punisher/Ghost Rider: Hearts of Darkness). 

Wolverine, by the way, is wearing his brown costume, putting this before the change back to his yellow suit. The Reavers and Kingpin appearances are also a determining factor, as is mentioned next issue. 

Calendar notes: Unless and untuil Paul B. asks for such analysis, since this book takes place so long ago, I'll pass for now. 

------------------------------------ 

WOLVERINE AND THE PUNISHER: DAMAGING EVIDENCE #2 [November 1993] 
Writer: Carl Potts 
Artist: Gary Erskine 
"The Punisher & Wolverine in: Damaging Evidence (Part 2 of 3)" 

Cast: 
PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE" 
WOLVERINE/"LOGAN"/JAMES HOWLETT 
KINGPIN/WILSON FISK 
DAMAGE 
SNIPER II/VON BURIAN 
MICROCHIP/LINUS LIEBERMAN-BTS (Frank mentions he made a police ID for him, and is away on a buying trip) 

Other characters: 
Kingpin's unnamed female Arranger (blonde) 


Summary: Turns out Sniper is watching Punisher, but thanks to the Kingpin's plans, lets him go. Frank investigates the scene as "Detective Fort", finding nothing useful. Right after he departs, Wolverine arrives, and sniffs around, literally, only picking up Frank's recent appearance, nothing prior. Soon, Sniper meets with Kingpin, wanting to get revenge on his former platoon leader. But the fat man merely wants him to shadow Damage, who is still a bit mentally instable, while he actually does the job. Kingpin wants to break Frank first, and won't tolerate him or anyone going against his wishes. Elsewhere, Punisher targets another Kingpin supplied crack den. He wipes out all of the gun-toting crack dealers, being completely sure to only shoot the guilty. He reminds himself even the young ones are unredeemable, at least, that's what he has to believe. Though, as he's been saying since the first issue, too much thinking about these things dulls his sharpness and threatens his edge. Later, he watches the news, sees a report on the crack den he took out, and is stunned to learn innocents were killed! Not only that, a camera crew caught it all on tape! Finding torn gloves with blood spatter and having blackouts lately, Frank begins to think he might be doing the killing as the public is being led to believe. With Micro away on a buying trip, he's at a loss to explain what's going on. 

Meanwhile, Wolverine smokes a cigar and wanders around the new crime scene. He smells Punisher, as well as a scent that was also at the first scene. Sniper spots him, Kingpin's computers determine his identity as one of the X-Men, so the fat man informs Sniper he should take Logan out of the picture in such a way not to alert his teammates. Soon, Sniper shoots Wolverine with some high-powered tranqs, hooks him up to an IV with more of the drugs in it to keep his healing factor from kicking in, locks him in a van that was scrubbed clean to leave no scent of him or who he's working for (not to mention heavy use of Old Spice to mask his own scent). But once Sniper departs, the IV is busted loose. Not long later, Punisher takes on another drug house. One of the crooks' slugs fly into the street, killing an innocent bystander, which is bad enough. He shoots the crook in the legs and lets him live. But as soon as Frank leaves, his lookalike arrives and starts gunning down everyone on the street, including the crook the real Punisher let live! Kingpin's Arranger will wipe the dead crook's record clean via their moles in the police department, thus making him appear to be yet another innocent. As the Punisher imposter begins to leave, Wolverine arrives. He recognizes his scent as being not Frank's, but the other one at both scenes. Turns out, Damage was altered to look like Frank (like you couldn't guess). Sniper watches from afar as Logan and Damage begin to battle, cyborg to mutant, deciding to use the distraction to go after Frank himself. Damage uses his various add-on parts against Wolverine, including a flame thrower, and with his enhanced cyber vision, there's nowhere for Logan to run. 


Continuity notes: There's a big banner now on the front page claiming, "These events took place prior to Uncanny X-Men #248-#281 and Daredevil #296-300." That's a HUGE coverage of time, and seriously overreaching. Why would it need to be prior to UCM 248? We see the Reavers' base in Australia, which they WEREN'T back living at until UXM 251, a storyline that didn't really quell for several issues! Not to mention, Wolverine is capable of being filmed here, which would be post Australian days. The note should just be "prior to UXM 281", which is when the Reavers were massacred. 


Goofs: The indicia for this issue and next are changed to read "The Punisher and Wolverine: Damaging Evidence", despite the first issue's being correct. 

All of a sudden Frank mentions having blackouts. This isn't portrayed anywhere in the story, he merely mentions them after the fact as a way to make him (and us) think maybe he's killing innocents. 


------------------------------------ 

WOLVERINE AND THE PUNISHER: DAMAGING EVIDENCE #3 [December 1993] 
Writer: Carl Potts 
Artist: Gary Erskine 
"The Punisher & Wolverine in: Damaging Evidence (Part 3 of 3)" 

Cast: 
PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE" 
WOLVERINE/"LOGAN"/JAMES HOWLETT 
KINGPIN/WILSON FISK 
PIERCE, DONALD 
DAMAGE 
SNIPER II/VON BURIAN 

Other characters: 
Kingpin's unnamed female Arranger (blonde) 


Summary: So, Damage, made up to look like the Punisher, battles Wolverine. He shoots the mutant, his healing factor keeps him alive. Logan stabs him, his cyborg electricity fries him in return. Eventually, Wolverine guts his wires and makes a run for it, needing to buy some time while he heals. Luckily, he picked up Damage's grenade launcher attachment when it fell off. Taking a chance, Logan rushes him, shoves the launcher in his robo-guts, setting it off and barely getting away in time. Of course, it only blows off a few parts and makes him more Terminator-like, not stopping him in the least. Wolverine claws him again and drags him closer to the chemical pool of the plant they're currently in, deciding to take the bot-man with him by impaling himself on a piece of shrapnel in Damage's chest. Spinning around at the last second, Logan shoves the cyborg's head under the green waters, at the least drowning him enough to shut him up for a while. Wolverine rests atop Damage, and Sniper continues watching, deciding now to go after his old pal. As expected, Punisher is at the funeral for one of the crackhouse raid victims. Sniper shoots the priest, and a few other mourners, prompting Frank to rush in to try and save a few people, which in turn makes some think he's he cause. It becomes overwhelming for Frank, begging the assassin to stop. Sniper tries to shoot a young boy, too frozen in fear to duck down, but the Punisher dives in and saves the kid, before finally snapping out of his funk and firing back. Sniper falls from the tree, and grabs another mourner. Frank's a bit surprised to see the heavily-scarred Sniper alive, thinking he's the one who's been trailing him and killing innocents. But Sniper keeps bringing up "take a look in the mirror", making Frank think himself to be the culprit again. When given a choice of a woman or a child being killed, Punisher dives, rolls, and stabs Sniper with a knife. As he falls into an open grave and dies, Sniper tells Frank where to find the guy who framed him, the mention of a friend of his making him think Micro is in danger. The boy he saved thanks Punisher, which makes him finally feel that what he went through was worth it. 

Arriving at the chemical plant, Frank's relieved to find Wolverine there instead of Micro. The two lone anti-heroes reunite at last (the first time in the whole mini the title characters have been face to face, how Golden Age!), with Frank helping Logan get free of the cyborg's shrapnel. Punisher still doesn't know who his lookalike is, and when Damage awakens, he tosses a grenade at him and kicks him into the chemical pool, finishing him off. As the pair depart, Logan explains all he knows about who was behind the cyborg is they used Reaver technology, which still leaves Frank in the dark about who exactly was in charge (though he suspects the Kingpin most of all). Punisher's surprised Wolverine came halfway around the world to help him, and as Logan explains, the balance of intelliect with instinct is tough, and if it ever looks like he's lost sight of the line between them, he hopes he returns the favor. Soon, the Kingpin learns of Sniper and Damage's deaths. Arranger suggests he send Pierce the Punisher-lookalike head of Damage and claim it's really him, but Kingpin wants to remain good on his word. He does indeed send Damage's head, though, along with a check for 50 million, with a request that for it he rebuild Damage, better than ever. Upon learning Wolverine was involved, Pierce is especially annoyed. 

A final dialogue caption ties things with then-current continuity, Frank noting how "just a year later", Kingpin and the Reavers are both gone, with him having little to do with either of their demises. He wonders what he's accomplished with all his battles, and how different the world would be without his efforts. Then he reminds himself thinking too much isn't healthy. 


Continuity notes: There's a big banner now on the front page claiming, "These events took place prior to Uncanny X-Men #248-#281 and Daredevil #296-300." As I said before, the "248-" part is erroneous. 

Punisher mentions people out to get him include the Reavers, "Doom, Kingpin, half a dozen South American drug lords". 

Goofs: The way the final captions word it, makes it seem as though Daredevil took out both Kingpin AND the Reavers. Almost makes you think it'd be the synopsis for Frank Miller's "The Man Without Fear Returns". 

Nobody ever clears the Punisher's name, I should note. They've still got eyewitnesses seeing him kill innocent people, as well as video footage, and no body of Damage! Even if they think Sniper did the killing while shadowing Frank, the video is pretty obvious that it wasn't some guy shooting from afar.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jan 2007 11:29 am
By ashram316

Could this story fit in between "the Muir Island Saga" and X-Men 1? I seem to recall that the 'techno-invisible' thing got dropped somewhere around there and it seems that there are several other things in that gap already.

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jan 2007 01:45 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
There's a big banner now on the front page claiming, "These events took place prior to Uncanny X-Men #248-#281 and Daredevil #296-300." That's a HUGE coverage of time, and seriously overreaching. 

Maybe it's a typo for Uncanny #278-281. After all, the Daredevil range given is only five issues -- maybe the X-Men range was meant to be about that size, 4-5 issues, too. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Jan 2007 08:07 pm    
By ashram316

If it was a typo, they made the same one in both issues. I do find it odd that they gave such a massive range for the UX though.

			*	*	*

Thread 45

Posted: 18 Jan 2007 09:48 pm    Post subject: Books of Doom #1
By Eric J. Lawrence

Sorry for the delay on this, but the research time was lengthy. 

OK, so Books of Doom is, in itself, pretty straight-forward: it is Victor von Dooms origin told in flashback. Of course, it is told by a Doombot, but Boris insists that it is based on Dooms actual memories. So, as long as were willing to trust that to be gospel enough for us, then the chronology is pretty fairly simple 

Except 

The first two issues retell parts of Dooms history that have been seen in part a number of times before. BOD issues 3 through 6 deal with events after these, and so are, as far as I can tell, virtually all unseen material. But issues 1 & 2 are intensely convoluted. Thus, Im doing an analysis of issues 1 & 2 separate, followed by a combo of the last four issues. 

Basically there have been five previous retellings of Doom's origin: FF 5, FF@2, M/SH 20, FF 278 and FF3 67, with a couple of important additional moments included in the Doctor Strange & Doctor Doom graphic novel, Triumph & Torment (coded as DSDDGN). They all have the same basic structure: Victor grows up in a gypsy camp; his parents die; Victor vows revenge; he discovers magic (and science); he is invited to attend college in America; there he meets Reed Richards (and Ben Grimm); and he is expelled after his dangerous experiments cause an explosion (which also "scars" his face). Each of these retellings emphasizes different parts, but they all follow the same basic narrative, told in flashback. Consequently, they all intertwine in complicated ways, so that a true, complete chronology is a bit unwieldy. But here's what I've got. 

Doom's early origin neatly falls into two separate parts: his time in the gypsy camp & his time in America at university. Conveniently BOD deals with these two parts in separate issues. Thus BOD 1 deals with Victor's time in the gypsy camp and ends with him flying to America, which is where BOD 2 picks up the story. BOD 1 & 2 are considerably more detailed than any previous retelling of Victor's origin and so they should be considered the primary telling. But it is important to examine in detail the previous retellings to see how things dovetail together. 

FF 5 

While FF 5 is Victor's first actual appearance in comics, his origin is only skeletally told. Basically Reed relates to Ben, Johnny & Sue what he remembers about Victor from their school days. It is told in five flashback panels: 

fb 1 - Victor is seen practicing black magic at school. 
fb 2 - He tells his assistant (named Daniel Kurtz in BOD 2), "Silence! Do as you are told!" 
fb 3 - There is an explosion in the lab. 
fb 4 - Victor is expelled. 
fb 5 - He wanders in the wastelands of Tibet. 



FF@2 

A few years later, Stan & Jack fleshed out Victor's origin in the first story of the second FF annual. There is a short framing device that shows Victor & his longtime faithful servant Boris making what is implied as a regular visit to the Latverian wastelands to pay homage to his late mother, Cynthia. She makes no appearance in the story (she isn't even named until much later), but Victor does make the comment, "It is on a night such as this that SHE would want me to visit her!") The rest of the story is told in flashback. 

fb 1 (4 panels) - The Baron (unnamed) of Latveria sends his men to find Victor's father (Werner, introduced here), as the Baroness is ill & Werner is renowned as a healer. 
fb 2 (4 panels) - Werner realizes he can't help her & she dies. (Victor does not actually appear in these panels, a situation henceforth abbreviated as "No VVD") 
fb 3 (1 panel) The Baron's soldier's attack the gypsy camp in retaliation. (No VVD) 
fb 4 (4 panels) Werner & Victor go on the run from the soldiers. 
fb 5 (4 panels) Boris finds them both nearly frozen & brings them back to the camp, where Werner dies. 
fb 6 (3 panels) Vowing revenge, Victor stumbles upon his mother's magic books & paraphernalia. 
fb 7 (9 panels) Victor takes his revenge on the aristocracy by playing tricks on them (giving them headache-relieving cream that makes their hair fall out as well, etc). 
fb 8 (4 panels) Victor uses a freeze grenade on the Baron's military forces. 
fb 9 (4 panels) The Dean of Science at State University comes to Latveria & invites Victor to the US on a scholarship. 
fb 10 (1 panel) Victor flies to America. 
fb 11 (6 panels) Victor meets Reed at State University, but rebuffs his offer of being roommates (and on his way out of the room, bumps into Ben Grimm). 
fb 12 (1 panel) Victor practices black magic in his private lab. 
fb 13 (3 panels) Reed visits Doom, happens upon some of his research papers & tries to warn Victor that some of his equations are off. Victor kicks him out. 
fb 14 (2 panels) Victor continues his experiment w/assistant Daniel Kurtz, who he tells, "Silence! Just do as you're told!" 
fb 15 (1 panel) Victor's lab explodes. 
fb 16 (1 panel) Victor is expelled for being too dangerous. 
fb 17 (1 panel) Days later, after his bandages come off, Victor breaks a mirror, claiming to now being ugly. 
fb 18 (3 panels) Victor goes to Tibet, where he is taken in by some mysterious monks. 
fb 19 (7 panels) Victor first puts on his metal mask. 
fb 20 (2 panels) Victor flies off on his flying harness. 
fb 21 (1 panel) Newspapers report of his menaces to society. (No VVD) 

The story ends with Victor & Boris returning to the castle. 



M/SH 20 

Marvel Super Heroes was an early reprint title, but it also included some new and fairly significant stories as well (Marvel's Captain Marvel (the Kree soldier) was introduced in an earlier issue). In issue #20, Victor appears in a story, briefly teaming up with Diablo, who entices Victor to collaborate by suggesting the fate of his long-lost "girlfriend," Valeria, depends on it. This tactic doesn't exactly work as Diablo hopes, but it does spark Victor to recall his youth, which is germane to our subject. Many of the same scenes as related in FF@2 are shown in flashback, which a couple of slight variations: 

fb 1 (1 panel) A young Victor is frolicking in the woods with Valeria (first appearing here, I think). 
fb 2 (1 panel) Victor's father Werner returns from the Baron's castle, after attempting to save the Baroness. 
fb 3 (1 panel) The Baron's soldiers attack the gypsy camp. (No VVD) 
fb 4 (3 panels) Werner & Victor go on the run. 
fb 5 (3 panels) Boris finds them nearly frozen & brings them back to camp, where Werner dies. 
fb 6 (2 panels) Victor finds his mother's magic stuff. 
fb 7 (1 panel) Victor practices magic. 
fb 8 (2 panels) Victor decides that he must leave for America to learn science (the implication is that he's already met with the Dean of Sciences from State University, although this is not explicitly stated or shown in this version). 
fb 9 (1 panel) Victor leaves the camp to go to the USA. 

Thus ends the flashbacks and the story of Victor's confrontation with Diablo continues. 


FF 278 

This John Byrne-era issue shows the indoctrination of young Kristoff into the world of Doom. Various Doombots work towards loading the true Victor von Dooms memories into Kristoffs mind. Through this process, we see a number of familiar flashbacks: 

fb 1 (2 panels) Victor & Valeria frolic in the woods, when Werner comes to say the Baroness has died & they must flee. 
fb 2 (2 panels) Victor & Werner flee. 
fb 3 (4 panels) Boris finds them nearly frozen, takes them back to camp, where Werner dies & Victor vows revenge. 
fb 4 (4 panels) One year later, Valeria tries to console Victor, when he happens upon his mothers magic stuff. 
fb 5 (4 panels) Valeria comes in while Victor is practicing black magic & tries to convince him to stop, but he refuses & realizes that he needs to learn science too. 
fb 6 (1 panel) He flies to America. 
fb 7 (1 panel) Victor arrives on campus. 
fb 8 (3 panels) Reed enters Victors room & tries to point out errors in his equations. 
fb 9 (3 panels) Victor & Kurtz conduct their experiment & the lab explodes. 
fb 10 (1 panel) Victor is expelled. 
fb 11 (3 panels) Victor smashes the mirror (note: here we actually see his face is hardly disfigured, but merely with a large scar.) 
fb 12 (1 panel) Victor wanders around Tibet. 
fb 13 (1 panel) The mysterious monks take him in. 
fb 14 (1 panel) Victor is treated as the monks master. 
fb 15 (9 panels) Victor gets his mask (which truly disfigures him). 
fb 16 (3 panels) Victor prepares to leave to master the world. 
fb 17 (1 panel) Victor first encounters the FF. 
fb 18 (1 panel) Victor first teams with Namor. 
fb 19 (1 panel) Victor drags the Baxter Building into space. 

Here the flashbacks end. 

Doctor Strange & Doctor Doom: Triumph & Torment (DSDDGN) 

There are two flashbacks in this story that provide new scenes relevant to Victors early years. 

The first involves Victors meeting with the Aged Genghis on his way through the Himalayas, just before encountering the monks that help him fashion his armor. Basically he seeks the Aged Genghis, looking for him to teach him the ways of mysticism. When the Aged Genghis tells him he does not take on students, Victor threatens him until he gives the directions to the monks who do eventually help him & Doom takes his leave. (Because this scene is unbroken, for annotation purposes consider it all fb-1.) The following day, Dr. Strange arrives at the Aged Genghis cave to find him beaten up & he helps him back to health. This is all related by the Aged Genghis to his assistant, concluding with a summary of Dooms time with the monks, which only retells stuff we know. 

The second important flashback is the most specific history of Cynthia Von Doom. 
Here is the breakdown of that flashback (as told to Strange by Boris): 
Panel 1  general image of the Von Doom gypsy camp (no VVD, arguably BTS) 
Panel 2  Werner & Cynthia von Doom (no VVD) 
Panel 3 through 10  Cynthia summons Mephisto, who grants her the power to protect the camp from the Baron for the price of her soul (no VVD) 
Panel 11 through 17  Cynthia confronts the Barons men in the town & kills them, but discovers that the damage extends to all of the children in town as well, which causes her guilt & grief (no VVD) 
Panel 18 through 20  A surviving guardsman manages to stab Cynthia, who runs into the woods where she dies (no VVD) 
Panel 21  Werner finds her just as she expires, and she tells him to protect Victor from the demonic power she had unleashed (no VVD) 
Panel 22  Cynthias funeral (no VVD depicted, but clearly BTS, so call it fb-2) 
Panel 23 through 27  Werner tries to destroy Cynthias trunk of black magic paraphernalia, but it keeps coming back, clearly by supernatural means (no VVD) 

The next 11 panels merely retell what we already know about Victors early life, from the death of his father to his lab accident in the US, with two minor points. There is a panel showing Victor and what appears to be Boris in a library researching black magic, which Boris narrates as In our years on the move, Victor haunted the library of every city and town we passed. This scene is not depicted anywhere else that I can find (and thus, I call it fb-3). The second point is that Boris explicitly states in his narration that Valeria is his granddaughter. Chronology-wise, this fact doesnt particularly matter, but it is a point of interest. 

Boris story ends with a short coda of Victor in armor returning to Latveria, waking Boris from his bed & introducing himself as the future master of the world, which is a new scene. 

FF3 67 

The next major retelling of Victor's early years takes place in a fairly recent FF issue. The crux of the story concerns a disguised Victor coming to America in search of Valeria, for what we first think is a going to be a tender reunion, but ends up being significantly more nefarious. Personally, I thought it was a pretty good story with a good twist at the end. In any case, there are a series of flashbacks that, once again, cover much of the same material as the aforementioned issues, with subtle variations and emphasis: 

fb 1 (5 panels) Teenage Victor frolics in the woods with Valeria. 
fb 2 (1 panel) His father Werner dies. 
fb 3 (1 panel) Victor finds his mother's magic. 
fb 4 (2 panels) Victor studies both black magic & science. 
fb 5 (1 panel) Victor torments the aristocracy, including using his freeze grenades. 
fb 6 (2 panels) A US military man "representing a number of universities" invites Victor to study in America. 
fb 7 (2 panels) Victor plans to leave for America, against Valeria's wishes. 
fb 8 (1 panel) Victor is shown on campus. 
fb 9 (1 panel) Victor confronts Reed. 
fb 10 (1 panel) Victor's lab explodes. 
fb 11 (1 panel) Victor breaks the mirror after realizing he's "scarred." 
fb 12 (2 panels) Victor, installed on the throne of Latveria & in full-on Dr. Doom mode, plots against Mr. Fantastic, etc. 

These flashbacks are entirely silent, with narration by Victor, and mainly revisit moments virtually identical to previous retellings. But there are two significant unique scenes, one minor & one major. The minor one is Valeria's implied arguing against Victor's going to America (fb 7). The major one involves the invitation for Victor to study in America coming from a military man (fb 6), as opposed to the Dean of Sciences as shown in FF@2 (fb 9). 
BOD 1 

The most detailed account of Victors early years retains most of the elements of previous versions, with a few more fleshed out specifics. Because it is being told to a reporter (unseen until the final issue) who is attempting to construct an A&E-style video biography, there are occasional talking heads segments with some of the ancillary participants (a member of the Doom family gypsy camp, classmates of Victors, etc), which are presumably set (read: recorded) in the current time period. (This is where my chronologizing is a little shaky  Im not sure where the contemporary scenes should be placed, as my knowledge of modern Doom history is not as strong. I would assume it would have to be before the FF/SHIELD took over Latveria, as Doom is at least assumed to still be in power. But how much before I dont know. Any suggestions?) 

After a brief preamble from the Doombot, there are a series of mostly familiar flashbacks: 

fb 1 (5 panels) These scenes show Victors earliest years, from the womb (!!!) to clinging to his mother as a young child. 
fb 2 (1 panel) Victors mother, Cynthia, practices black magic. (No VVD) 
fb 3 (2 panels) Victor, somewhat older, with his mother. 
fb 4 (2 panels) His father & mother quarrel. (No VVD) 
fb 5 (4 panels) Cynthia is, in Victors words, manipulated by a demon. (No VVD) 
fb 6 (1 panel) A village child dies, apparently as a side effect of Cynthias magic. (No VVD) 
fb 7 (1 panel) Realizing what a cruel bargain she has made with the demon, Cynthia laments. (No VVD) 
fb 8 (1 panel) She is chased by angry villagers. (No VVD) 
fb 9 (1 panel) Werner finds her dead, apparently killed by a soldier. (No VVD) 
[the flashbacks are interrupted by an interview w/Gustav Von Kampen, a member of the gypsy camp] 
fb 10 (8 panels) Cynthias funeral. 
[an interview w/contemporary Victor & Gustav Von Kampen] 
fb 11 (2 panels) More funeral. 
[more interview w/Gustav] 
fb 12 (2 panels) The gypsy camp is on the move. 
fb 13 (8 panels) Victor frolics with Valeria (depicted as maybe 13 years old). 
fb 14 (4 panels) The Barons men come for Werner. 
fb 15 (3 panels) Werner returns from the Barons castle. 
fb 16 (11 panels) Werner & Victor go on the run from the Barons soldiers. 
fb 17 (1 panel) Werner dies. 
fb 18 (2 panels) The Barons men take Werners body to the castle, to prove his death. 
[interrupted by an interview w/Sylvana Rosetti, another member of the gypsy camp] 
fb 19 (2 panels) Valeria & Sylvia commiserate. (No VVD) 
[more interview w/Sylvana] 
fb 20 (2 panels) Victor studies magic. 
fb 21 (2 panels) Victor studies science. 
fb 22 (1 panel) Victor uses his freeze grenades on the Barons soldiers. 
fb 23 (3 panels) Victor is 16 & declares himself leader of the gypsy camp. 
fb 24 (3 panels) Victor practices more black magic. 
fb 25 (1 panel) The whole camp is on the run. 
fb 26 (16 panels) This is an extended scene where Victor is cornered by a soldier, who he ends up killing. 
fb 27 (4 panels) Victor awakes the next morning when Boris tells him he has a visitor. 
fb 28 (2 panels) He meets a general from America. 
[a brief interview w/contemporary Victor] 
fb 29 (2 panels) Victor agrees to go to America. 
fb 30 (1 panel) He is on an airplane to America. 

And the issue ends. 


One final addendum to Victors early years: 

In FF(3) 501 & 502, Reed & Johnny time travel back to this gypsy period of Victors youth (Johnny wants to show Reed that hes better than Doom by being unwilling to harm him before he would grow up to be the villain he is (a la the old going back in time to shoot Hitler conundrum)). They encounter Victor during one of his various frolics with Valeria. To Johnnys shock, Reed does fire a gun at Victor, but purposely doesnt actually hit him, although Victor, not knowing where the shot came from, vows revenge on whomever it was who did dare attack him, etc. Thus this scene should come somewhere in Victors early chronology. If I interpret correctly, this shouldnt be considered a flashback, as it does happen for Reed & Johnny historically at that point in the series. 

So, heres what I see as the correct chronology for Victor Von Dooms earliest years (the stuff in parentheses is just for clarification  they are the flashbacks as numbered from the analysis of their respective issues). Consider this temporary until I finish the whole series to see exactly what it replaces on the current chronology for him: 

BOD 1-FB (covering fbs 1 & 3) 
BOD 1-FB (fb 10) ~ DSDDGN-FB-BTS (fb 2) 
BOD 1-FB (fbs 11-13) 
FF3 67-FB (fb 1) ~ M/SH 20-FB (fb 1) 
FF3 501-FB 
FF3 502-FB 
FF@2-FB (fb 1) 
BOD 1-FB (fb 14) 
BOD 1-FB (fb 15) ~ M/SH 20-FB (fb 2) ~ FF 278-FB (fb 1) 
BOD 1-FB (fb 16) ~ FF@2-FB (fb 4) ~ M/SH 20-FB (fb 4) ~ FF 278-FB (fb 2) 
FF@2-FB (fb 5) ~ M/SH 20-FB (fb 5) ~ FF3 67-FB (fb 2) ~ FF 278-FB (fb 3) 
BOD 1-FB (17, 18) 
M/SH 20-FB (fb 6) ~ FF@2-FB (fb 6) ~ FF3 67-FB (fb 3) ~ FF 278-FB (fb 4) 
M/SH 20-FB (fb 7) ~ BOD 1-FB (fb 20) 
FF 278-FB (fb 5) 
BOD 1-FB (fb 21) ~ FF3 67-FB (fb 4) 
FF@2-FB (fb 7, 8) ~ BOD 1-FB (fb 22) ~ FF3 67-FB (fb 5) 
BOD 1-FB (fb 23-25) 
DSDDGN-FB (fb 3) 
BOD 1-FB (fb 26,27) 
FF@2-FB (fb 9) ~ FF3 67-FB (fb 6) ~ BOD 1-FB (fb 28) 
BOD 1-FB (fb 29) 
M/SH 20-FB (fb 8) 
FF3 67-FB (fb 7) 
M/SH 20-FB (fb 9) 
BOD 1-FB (fb 30) ~ FF@2-FB (fb 10) ~ FF 278-fb (fb 6) 

Books of Doom #2 & later analysis forthcoming, as well as chronology listings for the rest of the characters. Let me get Doc out of the way first... 

Comments? 

Eric J. Lawrence

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Jan 2007 03:57 am  
By Enda80

Incidentally, DRSTR3 34, does contain a possible mistake as I recall realted to this; it states that Victor Von Doom made his trip to Tibet before Doctor Strange and Doctor Druid made their respective initial trips to Tibet. 

Since both Druid and Strange have been firmly set as having been active as adventurers decades prior to the modern era by way of Marvel Universe#4-7 and Marvel: The Lost Generation, while Victor Von Doom was a classmate of Reed Richards,

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Jan 2007 07:30 am    
By Somebody

Eric J. Lawrence wrote: 
>>>
Sorry for the delay on this, but the research time was lengthy. 
<<<

Heh. You must have a masochistic streak - picking this AND Agents of Atlas to analyse?! Ouch  


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Incidentally, DRSTR3 34, does contain a possible mistake as I recall realted to this; it states that Victor Von Doom made his trip to Tibet before Doctor Strange and Doctor Druid made their respective initial trips to Tibet. 
<<<

Well, given that Triumph & Torment hinges on the fact that Strange had been trained by the Ancient One and was on his way back to America (in blue cape with square amulet) at the same time as Doom was arriving in Tibet for the first time to the point where they just missed each other, that statement is untenable to start with.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Jan 2007 08:40 am    
By lkseitz

Eric J. Lawrence wrote: 
>>>
Basically there have been five previous retellings of Doom's origin: FF 5, FF@2, M/SH 20, FF 278 and FF3 67, with a couple of important additional moments included in the Doctor Strange & Doctor Doom graphic novel, Triumph & Torment (coded as DSDDGN). 
<<<

There's also an issue of WHAT IF...?, volume 1 that asks the question, "What if Doctor Doom became a hero?" (or something like that). I'll try to remember to review it tonight to see if there's anything relevent to Doom's origin before the divergence.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2007 09:09 am  
By lkseitz

This doesn't add much to the flashbacks already mentioned, but here it is for the sake of completeness. WHAT IF...? #22 (vol. 1) asks the question "What If Doctor Doom Had Become a Hero?" (I almost got the title right last time. It was just a matter of verb tense.) The point of divergence is when Reed Richards reviews Doom's calculations back in college. After telling him to get out, Doom considers Reed's observation and changes his mind, accepting Reed's help in doing his experiment, which, as a result, does not explode. 

Anyway, before this alternate reality tale is told, we get a two page summary of Doom's life on Earth-616. It's very similar to FF@ 2. 

Page 3 
Panel 1 - Doom tries to get his father to stay instead of trying to help the Baronness. Boris promises to watch Doom. 
Panel 2 - Doom's father flees from the Baron's soldiers with Doom into the snow. 
Panel 3 - Boris finds Doom and his father. 
Panel 4 - Doom vows to make "all of mankind" pay for the deaths of his mother and father. 
Panel 5 - After the last panels, all the Gypsies have left except Valeria. Doom finds his mother's witchcraft items as she looks on. 

Page 6 (pages 4-5 are ads) 
Panels 1-2 - Reed examines Doom's calculations and finds a flaw. Rather than listen, Doom orders him to leave. 
Panel 3 - Doom and his assistant carry out the experiment to contact the netherworld. 
Panel 4 - Out in the hall, an explosion comes from Doom's dormitory room. (No VVD). 
Panel 5 - Still in bandages, Doom is expelled. 
Panel 6 - Doom hikes through the mountains of Tibet. 
Panel 7 - Doom dons his armor, saying he shall now be known as Doctor Doom. 

Obviously, there's some panel-bridging narration from the Watcher, but I don't believe it's anything not shown in the flashbacks already mentioned.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Thread 46

Posted: 20 Jan 2007 05:33 am    Post subject: Webspinners: Tales of Spider-Man 3-12, 14-18
By JLH

Not in the gap, but truly a gap all its own! 

------------------------------------ 

WEBSPINNERS: TALES OF SPIDER-MAN #3 [March 1999] 
Writer: John Marc DeMatteis 
Illustrators: Michael Zulli & Vince Locke 
"As Dreams are Made on, part 3: Wake Up Call!" 

Cast: 
FOSWELL, FREDERICK 
JAMESON, J. JONAH 
MYSTERIO/QUENTIN BECK/'NICHOLAS MACABE' 
OSBORN, HARRY 
SCHNEIDER, BETSY 
SMITH, JOE 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
STACY, GWEN 
THOMPSON, EUGENE 'FLASH' 

Other characters: 
Vigarro, Cecil B. (director Spidey saves, also in previous issue) 
Patchouli, Eros 'Tilly' (actress Spidey saves, also in previous issue) 
Odetts, Clara (Jonah's latest secretary, looks an awful lot like an overweight Betty Brant, also in WTS 1) 


Summary: A continuation of the story from issues 1 & 2. They're in the MCP, this isn't, so I'm just filling it in. You want the story, go buy the issue, True Believer! 


Continuity notes: "Omnipresent Narrator Peter" claims he was 17 years old then, and was a Freshman in college at the time. 


------------------------------------ 

WEBSPINNERS: TALES OF SPIDER-MAN #4 [April 1999] 
Writer: Eric Stephenson 
Penciler: Keith Giffen 
Inker: Andy Smith 
"Out of the Blue (Into the Fire)" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD 
JAMESON, J. JONAH 
URICH, BEN 
LEEDS, NED 
LEEDS, BETTY BRANT 
ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE" 
FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM" 
BLACK BOLT/BLACKANTOR BOLTAGON [INHUMAN] 
MEDUSA/MEDUSALITH AMAQUELIN [INHUMAN] 
GORGON [INHUMAN] 
STACY, CAPT. GEORGE 
STACY, GWEN 
PSYCHO-MAN 
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS (in photo by Peter. Impossible to tell what's he doing, is most likely a previously existing appearance taken by Pete from afar) 
IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK (in photo, ditto) 

Other characters: 
Many SHIELD agents 


Summary: Spider-Man, on a tip from Ben Urich, investigates a strange hotel apartment where people have been going missing lately. The next morning, he tries to sell some pictures of Captain America and Iron Man in action (as well as Spidey fighting Silver Surfer from SS 14), but as Jonah says, everything he's brought in lately has been lousy. Peter gets an attitude about the critiquing, needing the money, and storms out. Even Robbie can't pep him up, as he dwells on that fight with the Surfer, and ignores Ned and Ben. Half a world away, on the Helicarrier of the Supreme Headquarters International Espionage Law-Enforcement Division (or SHIELED... err, wait), three of the Inhumans are teleported aboard to meet with Nick Fury. In reference to the recent battle in SS 17, Nick wants to hear about the Inhumans' fight with Silver Surfer from SS 18. Needless to say, the Inhumans are to be working with SHIELD to try to stop the seemingly enraged Surfer. Back in New York, Peter Parker has lunch with Gwen and Captain George Stacy. His mind is still tied up thinking about JJ and Silver Surfer, and what do ya know? The Surfer appears and attacks the city! His blasting at everything in sight doesn't deterr Peter from switching into his Spider-Man costume and trying to save some lives. Capt Stacy even tries to remind Spidey that maybe this threat it out of his league, but you know him, he's got a mad on nearly as big as the Surfer does. When Norrin targets the Baxter Building, where nobody appears to be home, Spidey is able to begin physical confronting the out of control alien. Surfer strikes first, and needless to say, they battle all over the place, eventually ending up in Central Park. Meanwhile, Jonah goes looking for Peter when word of Spidey fighting the Surfer is announced. Instead, Ben Urich and Ned Leeds are sent off to get the story and pictures. So, Spider-Man continues to keep the Silver Surfer at bay, despite the alien's clearly more powerful than him. Spidey spots a man in a trenchcoat nearby, whom, as we see, is actually the Psycho-Man, who's behind the manipulation of the Surfer's rage! Spidey's down on the ground, and the Surfer is coming in for the kill... 


Continuity notes: "This story occurs shortly after the events chronicled in SILVER SURFER vol 1 #18". 

Gwen will be having a party the upcoming Saturday night. 

This issue reveals Psycho-Man was BTS in SS 18. He's supposedly spent "months" corrupting the Surfer, so actually how long he's 
been manipulating his emotions is open to debate, but it'd be that issue at least. 


------------------------------------ 

WEBSPINNERS: TALES OF SPIDER-MAN #5 [May 1999] 
Writer: Eric Stephenson 
Penciler: Keith Giffen 
Inker: Andy Smith, with Jimmy Palmiotti, Scott Elmer, & Rodney Ramos 
"Broken!" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD 
JAMESON, J. JONAH 
LEEDS, NED 
URICH, BEN (BTS) 
STACY, CAPT. GEORGE 
PSYCHO-MAN 
OSBORN, HARRY 
FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM" 
SITWELL, JASPER 
DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK 
DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 
WONG 
ANNIHILUS 
THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM 
HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM 
MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS 
INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUE STORM RICHARDS 

Other characters: 
A few cops, some paramedics, a few SHIELD agents, and some Insectivorids. 


Summary: Spidey's only saved by the intevention of some specially armed police officers, who distract Silver Surfer, and luckily, cause him to slip out Psycho-Man's control. Agahst over the destruction he's caused, the Surfer takes off on his board. As it turns out, Psycho-Man let him slip, just so Norrin could be even more in agony. He also mentions his Psycho Ray has been modified to make it more effective, and to be able to control the Surfer from a distance. Anyway, Spidey refuses medical treatment and realizing someone was controlling the Surfer, decides to after him. Even Captain Stacy can't keep him from doing so, even though only Spidey ever saw the mysterious man in the trenchcoat. Back at the Daily Bugle, Ned informs Jonah he and Ben came back empty handed, as they arrived after Spidey & the Surfer were gone. He doesn't take it well, still demanding to know where Parker is. Pete's back at his apartment, getting bandaged up. His roommate Harry bumps into him, he cautions him about his apparent efforts to get too close to Spider-Man's battles to get pictures. Even Harry thinks Spidey should leave the Surfer for someone more powerful, which sends Pete out in another snit. He picks up his repaired costume from... some shop or something (I thought he sewed his own? Ehh) and sets out to find the mystery man. Speaking of which, Psycho-Man goes to his hotel room, changes back to his normal form, and explains his reasoning, how controlling the Surfer will allow him to get out of exile and return to Sub-Atomica. Suddenly, some Insectivorids attack, sent by his enemy. He sends them fleeing back to the Microverse. Elsewhere, in the SHIELD Helicarrier, Dum Dum informs Nick Fury the Pentagon has given the go-ahead for use of the Sonic Shark. Despite Jasper Sitwell's protests of concern, Fury orders the missile, with ability to harness and unleash cosmic energy, be fired. But it fails against the dismayed Silver Surfer, who knows how to handle it this time, rendering it powerless. SHIELD is stunned by the Sonic Shark's failure, and it seems as though the Surfer's about to attack New York again (so much that Daredevil and Dr Strange are given pause by the impending destruction), he changes his mind and tries to communicate with mankind to let them know he means no harm. But Spider-Man is back at the Hotel where those people were vanishing, and is being attacked by Insectivorids! Surfer aids him, much to his surprise, against the bugmen, and Psycho-Man sits on the sidelines, playing scientist. He discovers the Insectivorids relate to Spidey somehow, and when he manipulates an emotion in him, they respond in kind against the Surfer! Norrin's forced to kill them, and in his desire to be away from the savages of humanity, the Psycho-Man offers him sanctuary in the Microverse, a place he's been to before, if he can help free his homeworld from the insects who've ravaged it. If he can help free it, Psycho will give him a place upon it. Watching this scene is Psycho-Man's arch enemy, Annihilus, who prepares his colony to respond to his alliance with Earth's heroes! Psycho-Man takes the unconscious Spider-Man with the Surfer and he, to take advantage of his link to the Insectivorids. The three head into the Microverse together. Later, the Fantastic Four investigate the scene, finding one thing for certain: wherever they are now, Surfer and Spidey are on their own! 


Continuity notes: Peter's living in the city with Harry Osborn at this point. 

There's a reference to FF 72, in that this is the second usage of the Sonic Shark. Also FF 75, in Surfer's previous visit to the Microverse. 

Daredevil's costume is red (a given, I know, but I figured I'd mention it) and Dr Strange has his old blue cape with the square Agamotto thing. 

This is the first time Silver Surfer and Spider-Man actually meet Psycho-Man. 

Goof: Captain Stacy is shown with orange hair. He had white hair the previous issue. What'd he do, get a dye job during the Surfer's rampage on the city? 


------------------------------------ 

WEBSPINNERS: TALES OF SPIDER-MAN #6 [June 1999] 
Writer: Eric Stephenson 
Artist: Andy Smith 
"With Everything to Lose" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD 
PSYCHO-MAN (also in FB) 
ANNIHILUS (also BTS in FB) 
THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM 
HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM 
MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS 
JAMESON, J. JONAH 
LEEDS, NED 
LEEDS, BETTY BRANT 
ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE" 
URICH, BEN 


Other characters: 
A bunch of previous kidnapped people 
Yet more Insectivorids 


Summary: So, Spider-Man awakens in a tube, alongside many other tubes containing various people. Seems they're all the missing persons from the Hotel, captured by Psycho-Man to run experiments on. He's got the Silver Surfer in one, too. So, Spidey gets Psycho to explain what's going on, that he was exiled to his Worldship by Annihilus' forces when he tried to get them out of the Microverse and they attacked Sub-Atomica. With the Insectivorids being all emotionless, Psycho-Man needed someone to manipulate and use against the Negative Zone baddies. The Hotel people were his first attempts to draw people over, and remembering the Surfer from his previous Microverse adventure, he sought to bind his will. Over in the Negative Zone, Annihilus strips down his armor and takes a bath in some cosmic energy, and prepares to take on Psycho-Man. Back in the Worldship, Spidey subtlely reminds the Surfer of his board, he summons it and it though it bounces off his tube... Spidey's being tested on outside of his! So Spider-Man rides the board, webs Psycho-Man's face, frees the Surfer, and things go from bad to worse. Annihilus' troops attack the ship, forcing our two heroes to battle a horde of Insectivorids. This leads to a direct battle between Annihilus and Psycho-Man! So, Spidey frees the captives, Surfer changes the tubes' molecular structure into a nice little spaceship to house them and drags the lot of them all back to our universe, leaving Psycho-Man and Annihilus to continue duking it out alone. Surfer gets back to our universe via the Fantastic Four's gateway to Sub-Atomica, alerting three of the FF to the intrustion. So, the captives are returned home safely, and Silver Surfer & Spidey exchange thanks, forging a friendship despite their rough first meetings. This also helps to change Surfer's views on humanity a little, and Spidey's views on his own personal persistance. So, the next day, Peter, all beat up, returns to the Daily Bugle with pics of Spidey, the Surfer, and the Hotel captives! Jonah is so pleased, he buys them from him, with a bonus rate included. Of course, Jonah plans to tie Spidey into the cause of their captivity... 


Flashback: To Psycho-Man first noticing the Insectivorids' assault on the Microverse, and their eventual overrunning of Sub-Atomica. Thus, Annihilus is BTS. This predates Psycho's manipulation of the Surfer, which also must be post FF 74 but pre SS 18. 

------------------------------------ 

WEBSPINNERS: TALES OF SPIDER-MAN #7 [July 1999] 
Writer: Joe Kelly 
Pencilers: Bart Sears & Andy Smith 
Inker: Mark Pennington 
"The Bridge" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
SANDMAN/WILLIAM BAKER/"SYLVESTER MANN"/"FLINT MARKO 
THOMPSON, EUGENE 'FLASH' 
LEEDS, BETTY BRANT 
OSBORN, LIZ ALLAN 
PARKER, MAY REILLY 
THOMPSON, HARRISON 

Other characters: 
Mrs Allan (Liz's mother) 
Woman Betty lives with and her young son Daniel (he calls her "Aunt Betty") 
Mr Del (Chemistry teacher) 
Blake (classmate of Peter, son of some rich guy) 
Flash's three buddies 


Summary: The Prom is coming up for Midtown High's Senior Class. Peter's more worried about winning a scholarship to ESU than that, but when a fellow student seems to have a shoe-in for it over him simply due to having more money, he snaps. Peter changes his attitude about life, ends up with a Prom date with Liz Allan despite her being Flash's girl, and he ends up using his chemistry project on Sandman during a robbery. It reacts badly with his molecular structure, deforming him in ways that sure don't make the crook happy. 


Continuity notes: Deadpool, in costume, is on the cover of "Merc Monthly". 

Calendar notes: The Midtown Senior High Prom is going to be held on June 25th. 


------------------------------------ 

WEBSPINNERS: TALES OF SPIDER-MAN #8 [August 1999] 
Writer: Joe Kelly 
Pencilers: Andy Smith 
Inker: Mark Pennington 
"The Bridge, Part Two" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
SANDMAN/WILLIAM BAKER/"SYLVESTER MANN"/"FLINT MARKO 
THOMPSON, EUGENE 'FLASH' 
LEEDS, BETTY BRANT 
OSBORN, LIZ ALLAN 
PARKER, MAY REILLY 
JAMESON, J. JONAH 
WATSON, ANNA (BTS, May calls her) 

Other characters: 
Daniel 
Mr Del 
Blake 
Flash's three buddies 


Summary: Uhh, so Peter ends up getting another Prom date, this time with Betty, who's been all depressed lately about having quit school and never having a Prom of her own. Whoops! Flash, still angry about losing Liz, challenges Peter to a bridge-walk on Prom night. You know, walk on the unprotected edge of nearby train bridge. Oh, and Aunt May informs Anna Watson that Peter is willing to take her niece Mary Jane to the Prom! Durp! Spidey fights Sandman, who's bodily structure is picking up all sorts of extra crap. Thanks to Peter's mistake of using his untested chemical mixture on him, and his blowing off the experiment to enjoy life, he's unable to find an antitode. Spidey escapes Sandman, but when he tries to help correct him, he finds Flash has trashed the chem lab, destroying his work on the project! Peter agrees to the bridge-walk just to get his notes on the project back. 


Continuity notes: Peter still hasn't met Mary Jane yet. I mean, that's kind of a given, but I figured I'd mention it. 


------------------------------------ 

WEBSPINNERS: TALES OF SPIDER-MAN #9 [September 1999] 
Writer: Joe Kelly 
Pencilers: Andy Smith 
Inker: Mark Pennington 
"The Bridge, Part Three" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
SANDMAN/WILLIAM BAKER/"SYLVESTER MANN"/"FLINT MARKO 
THOMPSON, EUGENE 'FLASH' 
LEEDS, BETTY BRANT 
OSBORN, LIZ ALLAN 
PARKER, MAY REILLY 
JAMESON, J. JONAH 
THOMPSON, HARRISON 
WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE (BTS, cancels the Prom date) 
WATSON, ANNA (BTS, talks to May on the phone) 

Other characters: 
Mrs Allan 
Daniel 
Mr Del 
Blake 
Flash's three buddies 


Summary: So, Aunt May finds out about Peter's three conflicting Prom dates. Betty's excited, especially since Jonah's been giving her flack about her desire to go back to school. If she goes to the Prom, she's fired! Liz, as this story has been showing, is far smarter than she lets on, and her decision to date Peter is part of her changing her future for the better. She even destroys or burns most of Flash's stuff that she has! So, at the Prom, the bridge-walk occurs. Peter un-invites Liz to save Flash from having to do the dangerous walk, which gets him slapped by the girl. But Flash, who btw has been shown getting beaten by his abusive father (a nice recall to previously established continuity), is all drunk and has a mad-on for Parker since he thinks he has it easy when it comes to getting into ESU. Peter slips out when Flash is hanging on for his life on the side of the bridge, slips into his Spider-Man costume (or out of his prom suit, whichever) and saves his life in front of the whole school basically. Flash explains his reasons for doing the bridge-walk, how Parker's grown a backbone and Liz dumped him, he's afraid of change. Spidey is surprised to learn this, and Liz reluctantly takes Flash back. They become King and Queen of the Prom... Betty changes her mind about going at literally the last second, and returns to the Bugle, wearing her dress and all. Spider-Man, with the lab experiment notes, comes up with an antidote and saves Sandman at Coney Island. Returned to normal, Sandman beats Spidey down, then thanks him for keeping him from being something he wasn't (see, he was changing by attacking whatever he was attacking in the first part... ahh ferget it). Needless to say, Peter looks forward to the future, since if High School was any indication, things ought to be very interesting indeed. 


------------------------------------ 

WEBSPINNERS: TALES OF SPIDER-MAN #10 [October 1999] 
Writer: Paul Jenkins 
Artist: Sean Phillips 
"The Show Must Go On" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
CHAMELEON/DMITRI SMERDYAKOV 
WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE (also in FB) 
PARKER, MAY REILLY (also in FB) 


Summary: Chameleon is going off the deep end... again. He knows Spider-Man's true identity, and is going to great lengths to infiltrate his private life. Why, while Pete's off playing Spidey, he impersonates Peter Parker right in front of Aunt May! Chameleon leads Spidey around town, taunting him, and when he finally learns of his location (via the subliminal message he first contacted him with back in their first meeting), Pete calls his Aunt to make sure she's okay. She is, though it appears as though Chamelon pretending to be Peter went to go meet with Mary Jane elsewhere in the city! 

Flashback: Recently, showing Spider-Man fighting Doctor Octopus (a generic battle, and considering how often he encountered Doc Ock at this point in the chronology, it doesn't appear to be an unseen fight), then Peter eating food with Aunt May and Mary Jane. 


Continuity notes: This storyline is a modern-day tale, unlike the previous 9 issues which were all taking place in various earlier times in Spidey's career. This is at a point when Peter was pretending to have given up being Spider-Man to keep Mary Jane happy. May's hairstyle is her updated one from Amazing vol 2 issue 6. 

------------------------------------ 

WEBSPINNERS: TALES OF SPIDER-MAN #11 [November 1999] 
Writer: Paul Jenkins 
Artist: Sean Phillips 
"Off the Deep End" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
CHAMELEON/DMITRI SMERDYAKOV (also in FB) 


Summary: Uh-oh! Chamelon has Mary Jane at gunpoint atop the Brook... err, Georg... err, Gwen Stacy Death Bridge! He's fully aware of the significance to him. Oh, it turns out MJ isn't really there, he's actually pointing the gun at himself. He explains his attempts to make a new life, but his failure, even his trying on Peter's life for a night, were all pointless. The actual point is, as Chameleon admits, he loves Peter! Spidey reacts the worst way possible, and bursts out laughing. He didn't mean it like that, and they both start laughing their butts off. Glad to have made him smile, after all they've been through, Chameleon tosses him the gun, which was fake, and leans back off the bridge. Spidey's unable to catch him in time, he hits the water... 

Flashback: Shows what happened following PPTSS 245 when Chamelon was shot by Kraven's son, which turned out to merely be a tranq. He woke up alive, and took off to make a new start. We then see him in his new role in the circus for the past few months, as the clown named Eugene Tibbs, bringing everything back to where he was in the previous issue. 


------------------------------------ 

WEBSPINNERS: TALES OF SPIDER-MAN #12 [December 1999] 
Writer: Paul Jenkins 
Artist: J.G. Jones 
"Perchance to Dream" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER (also in FB) 
PARKER, MAY REILLY (also in FB) 
PARKER, BEN (FB only) 


Summary: Peter is unable to find Chameleon's body. It starts raining, so he turns in for the night, returning home to sleep, filled with guilt. He sleeps and has all sorts of funky dreams made up of old scenarios (even a few panels lifted from memorable earlier Spidey comics) and various metaphorical predicaments. The death of Captain Stacy, the death of Harry Osborn, Kraven the Hunter, Norman Osborn, Baby May, Ben Reilly... and eventually Gwen. But the biggest one is Uncle Ben. He comes to a realization about death and its role in his life as a superhero, and comes to terms with it. He even fights imaginary versions of Doc Ock, Vulture, Sandman and the Green Goblin. Gwen even shows up and guides him out of the nightmare, back to the "big convoluted mess" of his life. When he awakens, Aunt May asks if he had a bad dream. He claims he didn't. 

Flashback: There's only one really truly unseen FB in this story made up of stuff from earlier comics. A single panel, showing Peter and Aunt May at Uncle Ben's funeral. His open casket in the background as Peter guides his grieving Aunt away from it. There's two more panels on that page, one showing Aunt May in the attic looking at a family picture, and another of Peter from that era, clutching his arms while his Spidey costume is crumbled up on a chair nearby. I suppose that could be the same day, but you never can know. 

Oh, and there's a shot (no pun intended) of Uncle Ben lying on the floor in their house, bleeding and either dead or almost there. 

Goof: Aunt May makes Peter dinner. Only problem is, Chameleon as Pete just ate dinner a few hours ago, story-time! 

------------------------------------ 

WEBSPINNERS: TALES OF SPIDER-MAN #14 [March 2000] 
Story & Art: Howard Mackie, Graham Nolan & Scott Koblish 
"The Time Before" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
BLASTAAR 
CARNAGE/CLETUS KASADY 
DUSK III 


Summary: Part 1 of this 2 part story was already in the MCP. I'm just adding this to complete it. It's Spidey in the Negative Zone, wearing the costume from the short-lived Spider-Man Unlimited cartoon, which vanishes the same way it appeared on him, during his passage between dimensions. I should mention, this issue, like the last, is "told" by some being called the Teller to some alien kids in the Negative Zone some years from now. That should probably mean these two issues are to be considered FBs, but whatever. 


Continuity notes: This issue is where Cletus Kasady gets a new symbiote to replace the previous Venom-spawn one he was bonded with. Future stories will ignore this and treat the symbiote as still being Venom's offspring, despite having no relation. Oh, and this new Carnage symbiote is just coincidentally the exact same red and black color as the last one. 

Oh, and despite the importance made of Dusk's costume back in his first appearance so long ago, his people have a replacement one on hand. I guess Mackie got stupid (what a shock!) and thought Dusk in Slingers was using it (though she supposedly wasn't). 

And if you didn't know when this took place, it was during the "Mary Jane is dead? Or is she?" days. 

------------------------------------ 

WEBSPINNERS: TALES OF SPIDER-MAN #15 [March 2000] 
Writer & Penciler: Rurick Tyler 
Inker: Bub LaRosa 
"Blackout" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
VULTURE/ADRIAN TOOMES 

Other characters: 
Archibald & Mrs Pierce 
Jill DeMarley 
Tamara DeMarley 
John Douglaston & his partner "Red" (cops) 


Summary: Vulture has a plan to create a series of isolated blackouts in New York City, steal certain valuable jewelries, and retire to Europe with the money from selling them. The first heist goes off easily, but the second, he has to take a hostage, a young girl named Tamara. Spider-Man spots him and tries to save the girl, but Vulture's got some shocking tries up his sleeves... err, wings. To make things worse, he's got to save a store owner from a looting mob during the local blackout, and speaking of which, the police are under the impression, due to his contact with the electromagnetic castoff from the Vulture, that he's the one behind the power outages! 


Continuity notes: According to the 'next issue' box in the previous issue, this story is in modern times, with Vulture "hot off his appearances in Amazing Spider-Man 12 and Peter Parker Spider-Man 12." 


------------------------------------ 

WEBSPINNERS: TALES OF SPIDER-MAN #16 [April 2000] 
Writer & Penciler: Rurick Tyler 
Inker: Bub LaRosa 
"Blackout Part Two" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
VULTURE/ADRIAN TOOMES 


Other characters: 
Tamara DeMarley 
Henry DeMarley 
John Douglaston & his partner "Red" 


Summary: So Spidey's got to evade a police helicopter, the looting mobs on the streets below, and track down the Vulture. There's lots of fighting and nearly a chopper crash, and a big old fire. In the end, Vulture is defeated (last seen crashing into the river), the little girl is saved, and Spidey's in good with a pair of cops. 


------------------------------------ 

WEBSPINNERS: TALES OF SPIDER-MAN #17 [May 2000] 
Script, Plot, and Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz 
Finished Art: Bob McLeod 
"Hero Of The People" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
SILVER SABLE/SILVER SABLINOVIA 
SANDMAN/WILLIAM BAKER/"SYLVESTER MANN"/"FLINT MARKO" 
BEETLE/ABNER RONALD JENKINS 
RHINO/ALEX O'HIRN 
SPEED DEMON/JAMES SANDERS 
BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 
HYDROMAN/MORRIE BENCH 
DOCTOR OCTOPUS/OTTO OCTAVIUS 


Other characters: 
King of Belgruin and his daughter 
Gregari (rebel invader leader) 


Summary: Silver Sable contacts Spider-Man using a "Spider-Signal", ala Batman's. A neighboring country to her Symkaria, known as Belgriun, was recently overtaken by rebel forces, who used the supervillain quartet known as the Sinister Syndicate, to do so. Sable's company has been hired to retake the country, and she wants Spidey's help. But Belgriun's rebel invaders have brought democracy to the country which has previously been ruled by a tyrant king. What gets Spidey to help is mention of the King's 11 year old daughter, whom the rebels won't hesitate to kill. In Belgruin, the Sinister Syndicate, only involved with the rebels for the money, have their typical in-team bickering. Beetle appears to be the level headed one, and in charge, but as it turns out, he's reporting to someone else, Doctor Octopus! So, Spidey, now wearing his black costume, joins Silver Sable and her partner Sandman in parachuting into Belgruin. Spidey dodges bullets, and soon tries blending into the crowd as the country celebrates the rebels and the Syndicate. But when an old lady mistakes Peter for her nephew, he freaks out and makes a run for it, turning the Syndicate's attention on him. Spider-Man is beaten by the five villains, though he begins to get the upperhand, when the Belgruians join in, helping to fight the hero! Doc Ock is pleased to see his enemy there, since it'll make his intentions of taking control of the country's treasures, and the country itself, all the more enjoyable. 

Continuity notes: "This story occurs between the events in Amazing Spider-Man #288 and 289." 

Spidey mentions his penchant for switching between his red & blue costume and his black one of late, his recent thoughts about marrying Mary Jane, and recent battles including such villains as "Absorbing Man, Titania, Hobgoblin, Jack O'Lantern, Hammerhead, the Rose, and the Punisher." 


------------------------------------ 

WEBSPINNERS: TALES OF SPIDER-MAN #18 [June 2000] 
Script, Plot, and Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz 
Finished Art: Bob McLeod 
"Hero Of The People, Part 2" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
SILVER SABLE/SILVER SABLINOVIA 
SANDMAN/WILLIAM BAKER/"SYLVESTER MANN"/"FLINT MARKO" 
BEETLE/ABNER RONALD JENKINS 
RHINO/ALEX O'HIRN 
SPEED DEMON/JAMES SANDERS 
BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 
HYDROMAN/MORRIE BENCH 
DOCTOR OCTOPUS/OTTO OCTAVIUS 

Other characters: 
King of Belgruin and his daughter 
Gregari (dies) 


Summary: Spidey is chained and egged (rotten fruited, as well) in front of the Belgruin people. When martial law is declared and panic ensues, Spider-Man breaks out, helping to save a girl from being trampled by the crowds. It does nothing to help his standing with the people, since they see him as there to restore a tyrant to power. Sandman and Silver Sable drop their disguises and aid Spidey in getting through the rioting crowd to achive their mission of saving the King's daughter. So, the rebel leader Gregari finds the Sinister Syndicate looting the treasures of the King, and when he protests, since those belong to the people of Belgruin, Doctor Octopus breaks his neck! Beetle is appalled, since there was no talk of murder in this mission, and his teammates simply keep quiet about their own opinions on the subject. Except Hydroman, who is ordered to kill the King and his daughter, though Sable saves them in time. Sandman fights Rhino, and Beetle, disillusioned about liking his role as a hero, reluctantly battles Spider-Man. Before he escapes, he informs Spidey of the truth about the King, how much of a tyrant he was, and also of Ock's involvement. Spidey heads down to the basement to try to shut off the detonator for explosives the Syndicate set all over the castle, and is attacked by Doc Ock. Needless to say, the explosives go off, Doctor Octopus's rage for Spidey gets so out of hand he refuses help and is trapped in the castle's destruction. Beetle tries getting away with the stolen loot, but Sable bazookas it out of the sky, causing the riches to rain down on the people of Belgruin. In the end, they see this as a parting gift from their beloved Sinister Syndicate. Sable, Sandman, and Spidey depart, leaving the King back in power, but poor and castle-less, and the Belgruians rich in his stead. 

Continuity notes: "This story occurs between the events in Amazing Spider-Man #288 and 289." 

Is it me, or does Doc Ock "die" a lot? I remember as a kid, reading "Parallel Lives" (from this same era), and always wondering how the heck they explained his survival then, too. They didn't, of course, he just shows up alive, neither he nor Spidey ever mentioning what happened. 

According to the letters page, the mini-series "Spider-Man: Death and Destiny" was originally supposed to be the next Webspinners arc, with Roger Stern's "Spider-Man: Revenge of the Green Goblin" following that. 


------------------------------------ 



Note, I moved SS 18 in the Inhumans' chronology to fit more in line with the placement of SS 17 in the FF's entries. There's no gap of time between 17 and 18 for multiple stories to take place that I see. I'm sure Sklee can offer better insight into this placement for them, the FF, and Sandman. 

Similarly, ran into a huge problem with Spidey's chronology, as MCP currently has him in SS 14 well after Capt Stacy dies! 


ANNIHILUS 
... 
{FF@ 6} 
**WTS 6-FB-BTS 
**WTS 5 
**WTS 6 
FF 108 
... 

BEETLE/ABNER RONALD JENKINS 
... 
ASM 280 
ASM 281 
**WTS 17 
**WTS 18 
IM 223 
IM 224 
IM 227 
... 

BLACK BOLT/BLACKANTOR BOLTAGON [INHUMAN] 
... 
FF 83 
**SS 18 (moved) 
**WTS 4 
FF 99 
X:HY 16 
AA2 1 
AA2 2 
AA2 3 
... 

BLASTAAR 
... 
WTS 13 
**WTS 14 
CM5 24 
... 


BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 
... 
ASM 280 
ASM 281 
**WTS 17 
**WTS 18 
PPTSS 144 
PPTSS 145 
... 

CARNAGE/CLETUS KASADY 
... 
V:OT 2 
V:OT 3 
V:CU 3-remove (in the wrong position) 
ASM 430 
... 
PPSM2 13 
WTS 13 
**WTS 14 
ALIAS 26-BTS 

CHAMELEON/DMITRI SMERDYAKOV 
... 
PPTSS 244 
PPTSS 245 
**WTS 11-FB 
**WTS 10 
**WTS 11 

DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK 
... 
DD 72 
**WTS 5 
IM 35 
... 


DOCTOR OCTOPUS/OTTO OCTAVIUS 
... 
PPTSS 124 
**WTS 17 
**WTS 18 
SM:PL 
... 


DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 
... 
SUB-M 22 
H2 126 
**WTS 5 
M/FEA 1/3 
M/FEA 1 
... 


DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM" 
... 
SS 16 
SS 17 
**WTS 4 
**WTS 5 
CA 135 
... 

DUSK III 
S-M 90 
WTS 13 
**WTS 14 

FOSWELL, FREDERICK 
... 
ASM 37 
**WTS 3 
ASM@ 3 
ASM 42 
... 

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
... 
SS 16 
SS 17 
**WTS 4 
**WTS 5 
E:A 3-BTS 
... 

GORGON [INHUMAN] 
... 
FF 83 
**SS 18 (moved) 
**WTS 4 
FF 99 
X:HY 16 
AA2 1 
AA2 2 
AA2 3 
... 

HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM 
... 
FF 98 
SS 17 
**WTS 5 
**WTS 6 
FF 99 
M/:LG 7 
FF 99 
... 

HYDROMAN/MORRIE BENCH 
... 
ASM 280 
ASM 281 
**WTS 17 
**WTS 18 
ASM 315 
FF 326 

... 

INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUE STORM RICHARDS 
... 
FF 98 
**WTS 5 
FF 99 
M/:LG 7 
FF 99 
... 

JAMESON, J. JONAH 
... 
ASM 27 
**WTS 8 
**WTS 9 
ASM 28 
FF 50-BTS 
... 
WTS 1 
WTS 2 
**WTS 3 
ASM 39 
... 
ASM 86 
ASM '96-FB 
**WTS 4 
**WTS 5 
**WTS 6 
AA2 3/2 
ASM 88 
... 

KARNAK [INHUMAN] 
... 
FF 83 
**SS 18 (moved) 
FF 99 
X:HY 16 
AA2 1 
AA2 2 
AA2 3 
... 


LEEDS, BETTY BRANT 
... 
ASM 27 
**WTS 7 
**WTS 8 
**WTS 9 
ASM 29 
... 
PUN:YO 2 
ASM '96-FB 
**WTS 4 
**WTS 6 
ASM 88 
ASM 94 
... 

LEEDS, NED 
... 
ASM 71 
ASM '96-FB 
**WTS 4 
**WTS 5 
**WTS 6 
ASM 113 
... 

LOCKJAW [INHUMAN] 
... 
FF 82 
**SS 18 (moved) 
AA2 2 
FF 105 
... 


MAXIMUS [INHUMAN] 
... 
H2 119 
H2 120 
**SS 18 (moved) 
AA2 1 
AA2 2 
AA2 5 
... 


MEDUSA/MEDUSALITH AMAQUELIN [INHUMAN] 
... 
FF 95 
**SS 18 (moved) 
**WTS 4 
FF 99 
X:HY 16 
AA2 1 
AA2 2 
AA2 3 
... 

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS 
... 
FF 98 
SS 17 
**WTS 5 
**WTS 6 
FF 99 
M/:LG 7 
FF 99 
... 


MYSTERIO/QUENTIN BECK/"NICHOLAS MACABE" 
... 
WTS 1 
WTS 2 
**WTS 3 
ASM@ 4-FB 
... 

OSBORN, HARRY 
... 
WTS 1 
**WTS 3 
ASM 39 
... 
ASM 87 
ASM '96-FB 
**WTS 5 
ASM 365/3-FB 
ASM 90 
... 


PARKER, BEN 
... 
{AAF 15} 
PPSM2 33-FB 
ASM2 38-FB (shouldn't this be 37?) 
AAF 15-BTS 
SM:PL 
ASM 200-FB 
**WTS 12-FB (page 27, panel 3) 

PARKER, MAY REILLY 
... 
ASM 400/3 
**WTS 12-FB (Page 28) 
AAF 16 
... 
ASM 27 
**WTS 7 
**WTS 8 
**WTS 9 
ASM 28 
SM:PL 
... 
ASM2 7-BTS 
ASM2 8 
**WTS 10 
**WTS 12 
ASM2 10 
PPSM2 9 
... 

PSYCHO-MAN 
... 
FF 77 
**WTS 6-FB 
**SS 18-BTS 
**WTS 4 
**WTS 5 
**WTS 6 
MICRO 15 
... 

RHINO/ALEX O'HIRN 
... 
ASM 280 
ASM 281 
**WTS 17 
**WTS 18 
IM 238 
H2 340-FB 
... 

ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE" 
... 
PUN:YO 2 
ASM '96-FB 
**WTS 4 
**WTS 6 
ASM 88 
ASM 89 
... 


SANDMAN/WILLIAM BAKER/"SYLVESTER MANN"/"FLINT MARKO" 
... 
FF 45 
**WTS 7 
**WTS 8 
**WTS 9 
FF 57 
... 
ASM 281 
SSWP 18/2-FB 
**WTS 17 
**WTS 18 
SOLOA 6 
SOLOA 7 
... 

SCHNEIDER, BETSY 
WTS 1 
WTS 2 
**WTS 3 
SM:MM 1 
... 

SILVER SABLE/SILVER SABLINOVIA 
... 
ASM 281 
SSWP 18/2-FB 
**WTS 17 
**WTS 18 
PPTSS 128 
PPTSS 129 
... 

SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD 
... 
SS 18 
**WTS 4 
**WTS 5 
**WTS 6 
SUB-M 34 
... 

SITWELL, JASPER 
... 
CA 132 
**WTS 5 
IM 23 
... 


SPEED DEMON/JAMES SANDERS 
... 
ASM 281 
**WTS 17 
**WTS 18 
Q 17 
... 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
... 
ASM 400/3 
**WTS 12-FB (Page 28) 
AAF 16 
... 
M/H&L '96 
FF@ 3-BTS 
ALIAS 23 
**ASM 28 (split the issue at page 16) 
**WTS 7 
**WTS 8 
**WTS 9 
ASM 28 (continued from page 17-20) 
SM:PL 
ASM@ 2 
ASM 29 
... 
WTS 1 
WTS 2 
**WTS 3 
ASM 39 
... 
**SS 14 (moved, has to be before WTS 4) 
**A 82 (moved. Has to be before WTS 4) 
ASM 86 
ASM 87 
ASM '96-FB 
**WTS 4 
**WTS 5 
**WTS 6 
AA2 3/2 
ASM 88 
ASM 365/3-FB 
ASM 89 
ASM 365/3-FB 
ASM 89 
ASM 90 
PPSM2 26-FB 
ASM 90 
SM:D&D 1 
ASM 91 
ASM 365/3-FB 
SM:D&D 1 
ASM 365/3-FB 
ASM 91 
ASM 92 
SM:D&D 2 
SM:D&D 3 
ASM 93 
... 
ASM 288 
PPTSS 125 
PPTSS 126 
**WTS 17 
**WTS 18 
ASMV.W 1 
ASM 289 
... 
ASM2 8 
**WTS 10 
**WTS 11 
**WTS 12 
ASM '99 
PPSM2 7 
... 
S-W3 9 
WTS 13 
**WTS 14 
PPSM2 14 
FF3 27 
A3 25 
**WTS 15 
**WTS 16 
PPSM2 14 
ASM2 15 
... 

STACY, CAPT. GEORGE 
... 
ASM 87 
ASM '96-FB 
**WTS 4 
**WTS 5 
ASM 88 
ASM 365/3-FB 
ASM 90 
... 


STACY, GWEN 
... 
WTS 1 
WTS 2 
**WTS 3 
ASM 39 
... 
ASM 87 
ASM '96-FB 
**WTS 4 
ASM 88 
... 


THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM 
... 
FF 98 
SS 17 
**WTS 5 
**WTS 6 
FF 99 
M/:LG 7 
... 


THOMPSON, EUGENE "FLASH" 
... 
**ASM 28 (split the issue) 
**WTS 7 
**WTS 8 
**WTS 9 
ASM 28 
ASM 30 
... 
ASM 38 
WTS 1 
**WTS 3 
ASM 39 
... 

TRITON [INHUMAN] 
... 
SUB-M 20 
**SS 18 (moved) 
FF 99 
AA2 1 
AA2 2 
SUB-M 31 
SUB-M 36 
... 

URICH, BEN 
... 
MARVELS 3 
**WTS 4 
**WTS 5-BTS 
**WTS 6 
{DD 153} 
... 


VULTURE/ADRIAN TOOMES 
... 
ASM2 12 
PPSM2 12 
**WTS 15 
**WTS 16 
TW 11-FB 
TW 11 
... 

WATSON, ANNA 
... 
UTSM 25 
**WTS 8-BTS 
**WTS 9-BTS 
ASM 28 
... 


WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 
... 
{ASM 25} 
**WTS 9-BTS 
ASM 259-FB 
ASM 38 
... 
ASM2 8 
**WTS 10 
PPSM2 7-BTS 
... 

WONG 
... 
DRSTR 183-FB 
**WTS 5 
M/FEA 1/3 
...

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2007 06:56 am    
By Somebody

JLH wrote: 
>>>
WEBSPINNERS: TALES OF SPIDER-MAN #5 [May 1999] 
Writer: Eric Stephenson 
Penciler: Keith Giffen 
Inker: Andy Smith, with Jimmy Palmiotti, Scott Elmer, & Rodney Ramos 
"Broken!" 

Cast: 
[...] 
DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 
WONG 

[...] 

SHIELD is stunned by the Sonic Shark's failure, and it seems as though the Surfer's about to attack New York again (so much that Daredevil and Dr Strange are given pause by the impending destruction) 

[...] 

Daredevil's costume is red (a given, I know, but I figured I'd mention it) and Dr Strange has his old blue cape with the square Agamotto thing. 




DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 
... 
SUB-M 22 
H2 126 
**WTS 5 
M/FEA 1/3 
M/FEA 1 
... 

WONG 
... 
DRSTR 183-FB 
**WTS 5 
M/FEA 1/3 
... 
<<<


Okay, you just picked the worst possible place for Strange & Wong - this is directly between Strange's retirement and comeback stories. On top of that, immediately prior to that, he'd been in his third costume (the gloved & "masked" mess), and after he was repowered, he returned to his second costume (normal face & ungloved hands, yellow-trimmed red cape & no gloves). [And, yes, Mordo impersonated Strange towards the end of that period, but he was using Strange's third costume for this, including the real Cloak of Levitation & Eye of Agamotto] 

Blue cape & square amulet places it before Strange Tales #127 (pointing out for the record that Dr Strange v1 continued the numbering of Strange Tales), and in reality before ST126 since both issues were a continuous set (Strange was in the Dark Dimension) That tenable?

			*	*	*


Posted: 20 Jan 2007 09:14 am    
By Enda80

Continuity notes: Deadpool, in costume, is on the cover of "Merc Monthly". 

Calendar notes: The Midtown Senior High Prom is going to be held on June 25th. 

Hmmmm.......this is the second piece of evidence suggesting that Deadpool has been active for quite some time. 

A story was published that Deadpool took on a contract from Amahl Farouk, the Shadow King. The Shadow King died when Storm was a young thief in Cairo. This suggests that Deadpool's career goes back 15-25 years. See Deadpool II#2.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2007 09:39 am    
By Enda80

Apparently the preponderance of evidence suggests that 
Deadpool began his career as Deadpool sometime in the 
era that in real time was the early eighties, per Patrick D. Ryall. After all, when he joined Weapon X it was after Garrison Kane's time with the Six Pack and in the Deadpool/Death story Guardian was seen to exist when Wadeenlisted with Department H. And his post-Weapon X/pre-Deadpool career was shown in Priest's issues with such jobs as a Hobgoblin 
impersonator and fighting Ben Grimm and Franklin Richard's with the 
Wizard's tryouts for the Frightful Four. A personal continuity- 
excuse for some is to blame it on the time-travel adventure Wade was mentioned to have in Deadpool Team-Up #1.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2007 10:21 am    
By Starman

JLH wrote: 
>>>
WEBSPINNERS: TALES OF SPIDER-MAN #17 [May 2000] 
Script, Plot, and Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz 
Finished Art: Bob McLeod 
"Hero Of The People" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
SILVER SABLE/SILVER SABLINOVIA 
SANDMAN/WILLIAM BAKER/"SYLVESTER MANN"/"FLINT MARKO" 
BEETLE/ABNER RONALD JENKINS 
RHINO/ALEX O'HIRN 
SPEED DEMON/JAMES SANDERS 
BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 
HYDROMAN/MORRIE BENCH 
DOCTOR OCTOPUS/OTTO OCTAVIUS 


Other characters: 
King of Belgruin and his daughter 
Gregari (rebel invader leader) 


Summary: Silver Sable contacts Spider-Man using a "Spider-Signal", ala Batman's. A neighboring country to her Symkaria, known as Belgriun, was recently overtaken by rebel forces, who used the supervillain quartet known as the Sinister Syndicate, to do so. Sable's company has been hired to retake the country, and she wants Spidey's help. But Belgriun's rebel invaders have brought democracy to the country which has previously been ruled by a tyrant king. What gets Spidey to help is mention of the King's 11 year old daughter, whom the rebels won't hesitate to kill. In Belgruin, the Sinister Syndicate, only involved with the rebels for the money, have their typical in-team bickering. Beetle appears to be the level headed one, and in charge, but as it turns out, he's reporting to someone else, Doctor Octopus! So, Spidey, now wearing his black costume, joins Silver Sable and her partner Sandman in parachuting into Belgruin. Spidey dodges bullets, and soon tries blending into the crowd as the country celebrates the rebels and the Syndicate. But when an old lady mistakes Peter for her nephew, he freaks out and makes a run for it, turning the Syndicate's attention on him. Spider-Man is beaten by the five villains, though he begins to get the upperhand, when the Belgruians join in, helping to fight the hero! Doc Ock is pleased to see his enemy there, since it'll make his intentions of taking control of the country's treasures, and the country itself, all the more enjoyable. 

Continuity notes: "This story occurs between the events in Amazing Spider-Man #288 and 289." 

Spidey mentions his penchant for switching between his red & blue costume and his black one of late, his recent thoughts about marrying Mary Jane, and recent battles including such villains as "Absorbing Man, Titania, Hobgoblin, Jack O'Lantern, Hammerhead, the Rose, and the Punisher." 


------------------------------------ 

WEBSPINNERS: TALES OF SPIDER-MAN #18 [June 2000] 
Script, Plot, and Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz 
Finished Art: Bob McLeod 
"Hero Of The People, Part 2" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
SILVER SABLE/SILVER SABLINOVIA 
SANDMAN/WILLIAM BAKER/"SYLVESTER MANN"/"FLINT MARKO" 
BEETLE/ABNER RONALD JENKINS 
RHINO/ALEX O'HIRN 
SPEED DEMON/JAMES SANDERS 
BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 
HYDROMAN/MORRIE BENCH 
DOCTOR OCTOPUS/OTTO OCTAVIUS 

Other characters: 
King of Belgruin and his daughter 
Gregari (dies) 


Summary: Spidey is chained and egged (rotten fruited, as well) in front of the Belgruin people. When martial law is declared and panic ensues, Spider-Man breaks out, helping to save a girl from being trampled by the crowds. It does nothing to help his standing with the people, since they see him as there to restore a tyrant to power. Sandman and Silver Sable drop their disguises and aid Spidey in getting through the rioting crowd to achive their mission of saving the King's daughter. So, the rebel leader Gregari finds the Sinister Syndicate looting the treasures of the King, and when he protests, since those belong to the people of Belgruin, Doctor Octopus breaks his neck! Beetle is appalled, since there was no talk of murder in this mission, and his teammates simply keep quiet about their own opinions on the subject. Except Hydroman, who is ordered to kill the King and his daughter, though Sable saves them in time. Sandman fights Rhino, and Beetle, disillusioned about liking his role as a hero, reluctantly battles Spider-Man. Before he escapes, he informs Spidey of the truth about the King, how much of a tyrant he was, and also of Ock's involvement. Spidey heads down to the basement to try to shut off the detonator for explosives the Syndicate set all over the castle, and is attacked by Doc Ock. Needless to say, the explosives go off, Doctor Octopus's rage for Spidey gets so out of hand he refuses help and is trapped in the castle's destruction. Beetle tries getting away with the stolen loot, but Sable bazookas it out of the sky, causing the riches to rain down on the people of Belgruin. In the end, they see this as a parting gift from their beloved Sinister Syndicate. Sable, Sandman, and Spidey depart, leaving the King back in power, but poor and castle-less, and the Belgruians rich in his stead. 

Continuity notes: "This story occurs between the events in Amazing Spider-Man #288 and 289." 

Is it me, or does Doc Ock "die" a lot? I remember as a kid, reading "Parallel Lives" (from this same era), and always wondering how the heck they explained his survival then, too. They didn't, of course, he just shows up alive, neither he nor Spidey ever mentioning what happened. 

According to the letters page, the mini-series "Spider-Man: Death and Destiny" was originally supposed to be the next Webspinners arc, with Roger Stern's "Spider-Man: Revenge of the Green Goblin" following that. 


------------------------------------ 


SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
... 
ASM 288 
PPTSS 125 
PPTSS 126 
**WTS 17 
**WTS 18 
ASMV.W 1 
ASM 289 
... 
<<<


This placement of Webspinners: Tales of Spider-Man #17-#18 is a bit problematic as Spider-Man's red and blue suit were destroyed back in Web of Spider-Man #17, and he didn't start wearing the red and blues again until Amazing Spider-Man #300, with the exception of Spider-Man vs. Wolverine #1 where he wore a red and blue with the text "Die Spinne" on the back. 

I have struggled to find a better place for WTS 17-18, but it seems difficult. Is there any place after Spider-Man vs. Wolverine #1 that would be a possibility?
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

Last edited by Starman on 20 Jan 2007 10:26 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: 20 Jan 2007 10:24 am    
By Frederic Krier

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Okay, you just picked the worst possible place for Strange & Wong - this is directly between Strange's retirement and comeback stories. On top of that, immediately prior to that, he'd been in his third costume (the gloved & "masked" mess), and after he was repowered, he returned to his second costume (normal face & ungloved hands, yellow-trimmed red cape & no gloves). [And, yes, Mordo impersonated Strange towards the end of that period, but he was using Strange's third costume for this, including the real Cloak of Levitation & Eye of Agamotto] 

Blue cape & square amulet places it before Strange Tales #127 (pointing out for the record that Dr Strange v1 continued the numbering of Strange Tales), and in reality before ST126 since both issues were a continuous set (Strange was in the Dark Dimension) That tenable? 
<<<

Well, to place a story that follows up on Silver Surfer 18 (cover date: August 1970) before ST 126 (cover date: November 1964) seems rather awkward. It's not like Doc Strange didn't interact at all with other MU heroes; for instance with Spider-Man in Amazing Spider-Man Annual 2, which logically would have to come later than this in Spidey's continuity too, if we place this story this early. 
No, it's obvious that Dr. Strange's appearance here is a mistake, as he was in retirement at the time Silver Surfer 18 came out - and he's wearing a costume he hadn't worn for nearly six years at that point. So, there's only two possibilities: 
either time travel was involved 
or this takes place after Dr. Strange's comeback in Marvel Feature 1/3, but before he helps to form the Defenders in the same issue, and he wore a replica of his old suit in a fit of nostalgia.

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Posted: 20 Jan 2007 05:13 pm    
By Somebody

Well, if it's a goof it's a goof, and his costuming will have to be discounted (although it still can't go in that gap between Hulk & Marvel Feature, obviously), but he didn't have the square amulet at that point (the Ancient One took it & the blue cape off him when he gave him the round amulet and the [red] Cloak of Levitation, and he didn't get it back until he collected the Ancient One's artefacts shortly before the start of Dr Strange v2, after the Ancient One's death).

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Posted: 20 Jan 2007 05:22 pm    
By JLH

As Fredric said, not at all. The placement is dictated by everyone else's chronology. 

He's not actually DOING anything here. He's just sitting in his house, looking up at the Anamoly Rue window, with Wong nearby. There's no magic involved, he could still be retired. Maybe the cape and amulet are nonworking replicas, and he just feels naked without them?

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Posted: 20 Jan 2007 05:33 pm    
By JLH

Starman wrote: 
>>>
I have struggled to find a better place for WTS 17-18, but it seems difficult. Is there any place after Spider-Man vs. Wolverine #1 that would be a possibility? 
<<<

Looks like another case of having to ignore the suit. To be fair, the only thing in the story mentioning his costume is a first-person caption at the start. It's not even a thought balloon, really, more like Spidey narrating as he recalls this event, meaning his memory could be flawed in that one regard. When he switches to black in the middle of the first issue, there's no comment about it in the story. Ignoring the red & blue costume doesn't affect anything in the tale, really. 

Though it is kinda funny that Pete goes from the US to the Balkans, to the US, and then to Germany when you place it next to S vs W... talk about jet lag...

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Posted: 20 Jan 2007 05:39 pm    
By Somebody

JLH wrote: 
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
That tenable? 
<<<

As Fredric said, not at all. The placement is dictated by everyone else's chronology. 

He's not actually DOING anything here. He's just sitting in his house, looking up at the Anamoly Rue window, with Wong nearby. There's no magic involved, he could still be retired. Maybe the cape and amulet are nonworking replicas, and he just feels naked without them? 
<<<

He wasn't living in that house, which he had ordered boarded up, which alerts him to something being wrong - or, indeed, with Wong at all, which is how Mordo fooled Wong - during that period.

				*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2007 08:33 pm    
By Starman

JLH wrote: 
>>>
Starman wrote: 
>>>
I have struggled to find a better place for WTS 17-18, but it seems difficult. Is there any place after Spider-Man vs. Wolverine #1 that would be a possibility? 
<<<

When he switches to black in the middle of the first issue, there's no comment about it in the story. 
<<<

What does Sandman say to Spider-Man before they jump out of the plane? In the Swedish translation Sandman makes a jab at Spider-Man by commenting on the suit change and that the black suit makes him look like a villain, or something like that... There were also some other examples, but I can't recall them enough for the moment. (It's all from memory, those comic book issues are in another town.) 

I agree on the placement though, as it seems quite difficult finding another place to put it, though if anyone could find an adequate alternative I'm interested to hear it.
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 20 Jan 2007 08:41 pm    
By Starman

Just thought I would post what I found in the reviews by Wildman on SpiderFan.org about these issues (WTS 17-18). 

Wildman at SpiderFan.org wrote: 
>>>
The placement of this story in the Spider-Man continuity was flawless. Placing it between ASM #288 and 289 puts it right into one of Spidey's most turbulent periods. Peter's been unsuccessfully trying to give up the webs for months, his personal life is in flux, and he's just failed to have any positive impact on a city-wide gang war. No wonder he'd feel more than a little discouraged by the events of these issues. That discouragement helps the transition from this storyline to the classic Spider-Man vs. Wolverine - which also takes place before ASM #289 but could not have occurred before this story - in which Spider-Man finally hangs up his webs in a fit of rage only to be drawn back once again. And Doc Ock's fit at the end of this story foreshadows his upcoming nervous breakdown in ASM #296. Nice job with the homework, Mr. DeFalco! 
<<<

http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/reviews/spiderman_webspinners/018.html
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 20 Jan 2007 11:55 pm    
By JLH

Starman wrote: 
>>>
What does Sandman say to Spider-Man before they jump out of the plane? In the Swedish translation Sandman makes a jab at Spider-Man by commenting on the suit change and that the black suit makes him look like a villain, or something like that... There were also some other examples, but I can't recall them enough for the moment. (It's all from memory, those comic book issues are in another town.) 
<<<

Oh, right, he does comment on it, saying "I like your new suit, makes you look like a villain". I just meant there wasn't any "I better go change my costume!" or other actual plot-specific things about his change mid-story. You could very well read into his comment that he's only now making an opinion on the black costume he's been wearing the whole issue. Had Spidey dealt with Sandman while in black in any issue prior?

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Posted: 21 Jan 2007 12:03 am    
By JLH

Somebody wrote: 
He wasn't living in that house, which he had ordered boarded up, which alerts him to something being wrong - or, indeed, with Wong at all, which is how Mordo fooled Wong - during that period. 


Hmm. I take it he wasn't even in New York at this point. 

Funny thing, just prior to this issue of Webspinners came out, Roy Thomas, Whasshisname L'oanOfficer, and Jose Ladronn were reportedly planning on doing the "what followed SS 18" tale as a special or mini. One of the things mentioned they'd have was Dr Strange in his mask days. Of course, there was a contract dispute or something that prevented this project from happening, and what would have been a Marvel Universe vs Silver Surfer tale became a Spider-Man & the Surfer team-up. 

Seems like even if that story had come about, we'd still be having problems with the use of Doctor Strange in it.

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Posted: 21 Jan 2007 12:52 pm    
By Starman

JLH wrote: 
>>>
You could very well read into his comment that he's only now making an opinion on the black costume he's been wearing the whole issue. 
<<<

Well, he did wear the red and blues in the beginning of the issue. It is first on the plane he wears the black costume. (If I'm not misremembering.) 


JLH wrote: 
>>>
Had Spidey dealt with Sandman while in black in any issue prior? 
<<<

Yes, in Amazing Spider-Man (Vol. 1) #281, but I don't remember they had much time to chat, as they fought the Sinister Syndicate. (Yes, that time too.)
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

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Thread 47

Posted: 25 Jan 2007 09:23 pm    Post subject: Avengers Next #1-5
By michaelyuri

Avengers Next #1: Does the World Still Need the Avengers? 
Plot, script & pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Lim 
Inker: Scott Koblish 


Characters Appearing: 
American Dream, 
Bluestreak 
Freebooter (FB only) 
J2 
Jarvis, Edwin 
Sabreclaw (& FB) 
Spider-Girl 
Stinger 
Sylene 
Thunderstrike/Kevin Masterson 
Ulik 
Warp 
also: Nancy 

Synopsis: 
1-4: The Avengers are arguing over the future of the team following Last Planet Standing. It is revealed that Stinger quit the team due to the infighting, Mainframe is working in Washington, Freebooter is injured, and Spider-Girl is thought to be retired. An unknown man sneaks away from a tour of Avengers Mansion and steals a box, setting off alarms in the process. The Avengers try to stop him, but he teleports away before they can catch him. 

5-6: The teleporter (Warp) reappears in a laboratory and hands the box to an old witch (Sylene) and Ulik, the rock troll. The box is revealed to contain a bunch of vials. 

7-9: American Dream is teleconferencing with Stinger about the theft. The stolen box contained Avengers blood and tissue samples. Dream is called to the lobby where she finds Sabreclaw. He says his that Last Planet Standing made him want to reform, and now he wants to join the Avengers. They are interrupted by an alarm. 

10: Outside, an army of Zombie Avengers is advancing on the Mansion. 

11-12: American Dream and Sabreclaw engage the Zombies. Jarvis goes to summon other Avengers. J2 and Bluestreak are playing video games. They leave to help. Spider-Girl gets a phone call at school and leaves. 

13-14: The Avengers battle the zombies. Across the street, Sylene is controlling the zombies magically. 

15: Jarvis and Kevin Masterson are running to the armory. Meanwhile, Ulik and Warp have teleported into Avengers Mansion. 

16: The Avengers battle the zombies. 

17: Ulik takes Jarvis hostage in the armory. 

18: The Avengers battle the zombies. 

19: Spider-Girl is on her way to Avengers Mansion. She isn't in costume. She sees Sylene on the way and stops to distract her. 

20: The zombies decompose. The Avengers see Spider-Girl battling Sylene across the street. 

21: The Avengers rush across to help, but Sylene opens a portal and vanishes. 

22: The Avengers return to the mansion, and Jarvis tells them that Kevin Masterson has been kidnapped. 


Flashbacks: 
(2:2) Image of Galactus from Last Planet Standing. Nothing new revealed. 

(9:1) Image of Sabreclaw and the Revengers with their A-Next #12 lineup. Nothing new revealed. 

(9:2) Image of Sabreclaw helping to hold up Freebooter in the aftermath of Last Planet Standing. Interestingly, the same scene with roles reversed appeared in Last Planet Standing #5 (22:2). 

My theory is as follows: Sabreclaw was injured during Last Planet Standing (LPS #5 (11:3)). Freebooter helps him to his feet (LPS #5(22:2)). By this time Sabreclaw is recovering due to his healing factor, but Freebooter is more injured than was apparent, and he collapses. Sabreclaw helps to hold him up (AVN #1(9:2)). 


Continuity Notes: 
Story occurs in one day. 

Spider-Girl hasn't heard from Avengers in months. 

Spider-Girl's costume is still in the attic. 

------------------------------ 

Avengers Next #2: The Sound of Thunder! 
Plot, script & pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Lim 
Inker: Scott Koblish 


Characters Appearing: 
American Dream 
Bluestreak 
Earth Sentry 
Energizer/Katherine "Katie" Power (& FB) 
Gee/Alex Power (FB only) 
J2 
Jarvis 
Lightspeed/Julie Power (FB only) 
Mass Master/Jack Power(FB only) 
Nova 
Sabreclaw 
Spider-Girl 
Stinger 
Sylene 
Thena 
Thunderstrike/Kevin Masterson 
Ulik 
Ultron Extreme 
Warp 


Synopsis: 
1: Recap page 

2-3: Nova and Earth Sentry are checking out an unidentified object in space. It turns out to be a meteor, but when they get close to it, it begins taking evasive action. 

4-5: Stinger & Katie Power have shown up at the Mansion to help locate Kevin. 

6-8: Kevin is being held prisoner by Warp, Ulik, and Sylene. It is revealed that Ulik stole something else from the Avengers while kidnapping Kevin. Nova and Earth Sentry pursue the meteor toward Earth. 

9-10: Sabreclaw spars with J2 and Spider-Girl (not in costume) at the Mansion. 

11-12: The meteor impacts right in front of Avengers Mansion. Out of it comes Thena, daughter of Thor. 

13-15: Sabreclaw, Thena, Nova & Earth Sentry all fight. Eventually J2 breaks it up. 

16-17: Ulik, Sylene, and Warp teleport to storage area deep below the mansion. 

18-21: Thena fights Avengers, breaking her hammer on J2. Katie Power stops the fighting. Thena reveals that she has come for Kevin. She is informed that he has been kidnapped by Ulik. Then Jarvis reveals that something has been stolen from the armory. 

22: Sylene activates Ultron Extreme in the Avengers storage area. 


Flashback: 
(5:3) Katie Power explains that she used to be a member of Power Pack. A scene of Power Pack in costume as very young kids is shown. 

Continuity Notes: 
Story occurs in one day. Occurs shortly after last issue's kidnapping, but not necessarily the same day. 

Spider-Girl is still without her costume. 

------------------------------ 

Avengers Next #3: Ultron Extreme! 
Plot, script & pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Lim 
Inker: Scott Koblish 


Characters Appearing: 
American Dream 
Bluestreak 
Captain America (FB only) 
Galactus (FB only) 
Iron Man (FB only) 
J2 
Jarvis 
Power, Kate 
Sabreclaw 
Spider-Girl 
Stinger 
Sylene (& FB) 
Thena (& FB) 
Thor (FB only) 
Thunderstrike/Kevin Masterson 
Ulik 
Ultron Extreme (& FB) 
Warp 


Synopsis: 
1: Recap page 

2-3: American Dream and Sabreclaw review archive footage of Ultron Extreme. 

4: Thena spars with J2. 

5-7: Stinger & Katie try to locate Kevin. Kevin is chained up in the middle of a candle lit pentagram. Warp appears and snuffs the candles. Avengers detect Warp's teleportation. Kevin is brought to Sylene & Ulik. Avengers prepare to leave in quinjet. Jarvis presents Thena with a new hammer. 

8-10: Spider-Girl arrives in costume. The Avengers leave on the quinjet. Thena relates the story of how Galactus destroyer Asgard during Last Planet Standing. 

11-15: The Avengers land on an island and are attacked by Ultron Extreme, Warp, and Ulik. 

16-19: A second Ultron appears, and the Ultron they have been fighting is revealed to be a drone. The Avengers defeat Ulik and Warp. Ultron self-distructs. 

20-22: The Avengers rescue Kevin, board the quinjet and leave the island. Kevin reveals himself to actually be Sylene in disguise. The quinjet explodes. 


Flashbacks: 
(2) Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor battle Ultron Extreme. This obviously occurs before the mission in the A-Next #7 flashbacks which caused the Avengers to disband, but I believe it occurs after the "divergence" between MC-2 & 616. 

(9:5) Thena, Sylene, and numerous asgardians flee as Galactus destroys Asgard. This seems to fit between pages 9 & 10 of Last Planet Standing #2. 

(10:1) Thena and others return to a shattered Asgard. This probably follows immediately after Last Planet Standing. 


Continuity Notes: 
Stinger and Katie have been trying to locate Kevin for nearly 48 hours straight, placing this issue at least two days after #2. 

Spider-Girl says that a lot has happened since she last saw the Avengers - an editorial note indicates that this refers to the events of Amazing Spider-Girl #2. 

------------------------------ 

Avengers Next #4: Cry, My Beloved Homeworld! 
Plot, script & pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Lim 
Inker: Scott Koblish 


Characters Appearing: 
American Dream 
Bluestreak 
Darkdevil 
Earth Sentry 
Energizer (BTS) 
J2 
Jarvis, Edwin 
Mainframe 
Nova 
Sabreclaw 
Spider-Girl 
Stinger 
Sylene 
Thena 
Thunderstrike 
Ulik 
Warp 
also: Nancy 

Characters in background (p. 15): 
Argo 
Buzz 
Cyclops 
Doc Magus 
Freebooter 
Green Goblin II 
Hawkeye 
Hulk 
Human Torch 
Invisible Woman 
Iron Fist 
Magneta 
Mr. Fantastic 
Ms. Fantastic 
Psilord 
Raptor 
Red Queen 
Scarlet Witch 
Speedball 
Spider-Man 
Steel Spider 
Thing 
Venom 
Wild Thing 
Wolverine 


Synopsis: 
1: Recap page 

2-3: Mainfram, Nova, and Earth Sentry arrive at Avengers Mansion. Jarvis tells them that he lost the quinjet signal. 

4-5: The Avengers are being held captive in tubes by Sylene. It is revealed that Warp transported them off the quinjet before it exploded. Warp is sent to retrieve Kevin. 

6-8: Mainframe, Nova, and Earth Sentry search the quinjet wreckage. Warp teleports Kevin to Ulik & Sylene. Sylene demonstrates how her machine can extract the energy matrices from the captured heroes. 

9-10: Sylene discovers that J2/Zane is a changeling. She sends the other Avengers' energy matrices off to steal energy matrices from other heroes. They attack Mainframe, Nova, and Earth Sentry. 

11-14: Sylene places magical bonds around Thena, then wakes her. Mainframe shows up. He was unaffected by the energy matrices since he isn't alive. Mainframe battles Ulik. Sylene sheds her old witch disguise and reveals her identity as Loki's daughter to Thena. Spider-Girl's energy matrix is shown attacking Darkdevil in the city. It flies off along with his energy matrix. 

15-18: Sylene explains how she will recreate Asgard using the power of the energy matrices from all of Earth's heroes. A collage of heroes is shown behind her. Mainframe & Ulik continue fighting. Sylene throws Thena into her mystical pool. Warp realizes he's in trouble and disappears with Kevin. Sylene realizes that she can use Zane in Kevin's place, and throws him into the pool. Zane turns into J2, and an enormous explosion occurs. 

19: All over the world, places on Earth begin to merge with Asgard. 

20-21: Ulik & Mainframe fight. Mainframe is destroyed. A new Mainframe is assembled in the orbiting satellite. 

22: Warp reappears with Kevin at Avengers Mansion. 


Continuity Notes: 
This issue occurs all in a short period of time, relatively soon after issue 
#3. 

For some strange reason, Katie Power and Stinger aren't pictured in this issue. They were in the quinjet at the end of issue #3, but they don't appear clearly at any point in this issue. When the energy matrices of American Dream, Bluestreak, Sabreclaw, & Spider-Girl are sent out, Mainframe announces that he sees Energizer & Stinger behind them, but they aren't pictured. It almost seems as if the artist forgot about those two and they added that line of dialogue to try to cover for the mistake. However, if you look carefully at the right edge of page 4 you can see Stinger's elbow. 

The collage of heroes behind Sylene on page 15 are supposed to be the heroes whose energy matrices have already been stolen by Sylene. Unfortunately, there are two characters shown who shouldn't be there: Venom & the Hulk. The Venom symbiote died in Spider-Girl #100, and the Hulk was banished from the Earth along with Loki in Last Hero Standing #5. Since both the symbiote's death and the Hulk's banishment were pretty major occurrences, I had initially hoped that this background could be written off as just an atmospheric drawing of lots of heroes and wasn't necessarily supposed to show those heroes who are actually having their energy matrices stolen. Unfortunately, both the Hulk's & Venom's energy matrices appear in issue #5, so unless later books indicate otherwise, I guess we have to assume that they both returned off panel somehow. 

------------------------------ 

Avengers Next #5: Farewell, My Planet! 
Plot, script & pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Lim 
Inker: Scott Koblish 

Characters Appearing: 
American Dream 
Bluestreak 
Earth Sentry 
Energizer 
J2 
Jarvis 
Mainframe 
Nova 
Sabreclaw 
Spider-girl 
Stinger 
Sylene 
Thena 
Thunderstrike 
Ulik 
Warp 

As energy matrices: 
Argo 
Buzz 
Cyclops 
Doc Magus 
Freebooter 
Green Goblin II 
Hawkeye 
Hulk 
Human Torch 
Invisible Woman 
Iron Fist 
Magneta 
Scarlet Witch 
Speedball 
Spider-man 
Steel Spider 
Thing 
Venom 
Wild Thing 
Wolverine 


Synopsis: 
1: Recap page 

2-4: Jarvis, Kevin, & Warp are reviewing the situation at Avengers Mansion. Mainframe contacts them from his satellite and tells them he intends to destroy Sylene's island volcano. Outside, a large number of hero energy matrices are converging on Avengers Mansion. Kevin runs to the armory to get something. Warp teleports them away just before the energy matrices get there. 

5: Sylene and Ulik gloat over the success of their plan. Inside Sylene's cauldron, J2 is shown, walking determinedly. 

6-7: In Sylene's cave, the original Iron Man appears out of one of Warp's portals. Ulik smashes it, revealing that it is merely an empty suit. It's real purpose was distraction, as Kevin blasts Sylene from behind with the Grim Reaper's scythe. Warp grabs the energy matrix remote control and disappears. Ulik charges at Kevin, but Warp opens a portal in front of him, sending him to what looks like the moon. Jarvis attempts to figure out the remote control. 

8: The Earth continues to transform into Asgard. Mainframe sends his satellite plummeting toward Earth. J2 finds Thena within the cauldron. 

9-11: Using the remote, Jarvis causes the energy matrices to dissolve. The captive Avengers in the tubes awaken and break free. Sabreclaw attacks Sylene, but she blasts him with magic, burning him badly. The other Avengers (Spider-Girl, Stinger, Dream, Bluestreak, and Energizer) battle Sylene. 

12-13: J2, carrying Thena, starts smashing into the inside of the cauldron. He bursts through, escaping and causing a huge explosion. 

14: The Earth begins reverting back to its previous state. Thena gives J2 a kiss for saving her. 

15-16: Sylene begins using her magic the Avengers, but is attacked by Thena. When Sylene begins fighting Thena, Kevin attacks her with the scythe. Sylene is defeating them both, until Thena realizes who Kevin is and tells him that Thor told her to settle a debt. They reach out and touch hands. 

17-20: Kevin regains his Thunderstrike powers and defeats Sylene. Mainframe warns the Avengers that his satellite will impact the island in ten seconds. Warp quickly evacuates the Avengers along with Earth Sentry and Nova. The satellite lands in the volcano and the whole thing explodes while the Avengers watch from a distance. 

21: Mainframe joins the Avengers and tells them that without his satellite he no longer has the ability to replicate himself. He criticizes the Avengers for teaming up with Sabreclaw and Warp, but Dream defends them. 

22: Avengers Assemble splash page. 


Continuity Notes: 
This issue follows immediately from issue #4. The events take place in not roughly half an hour, based on Kevin's estimate on page 1. 

The characters whose energy matrices were shown in this issue did not themselves appear. I think this should probably count as a behind the scenes appearance, rather than a full appearance. 

------------------------------ 

Chronology entries: 
AVN = Avengers Next 


American Dream/Shannon Carter 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 1 
*AVN 2 
*AVN 3 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5 

Argo 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

Bluestreak 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 1 
*AVN 2 
*AVN 3 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5 

Buzz/Jack "J.J." Jameson 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

Captain America/Steve Rogers 
SG 32-FB (11:3) 
AN 2-FB (6:1) 
*AVN 3-FB (2) 
AN 7-FB (7:2-7:3) 
AN 10 
. . . 

Cyclops/Scott Summers 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

Darkdevil/Reilly Tyne 
. . . 
LHS 5 
SG 96 
*AVN 4 

Doc Magus/Dormagus 
. . . 
LHS 4 
LHS 5 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

Earth Sentry/John Foster 
. . . 
SG 92 
LPS 2 
*AVN 2 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5 

*Energizer/Katherine "Katie" Power 
*AVN 2-FB (5:3) 
*AVN 2 
*AVN 3 
*AVN 4-BTS 
*AVN 5 

Freebooter/Brandon Cross 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 1-FB (9:2) 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

Galactus 
LPS 1 
*LPS 2 (4-8) 
*AVN 3-FB (9:4) 
*LPS 2 (13-18) 
LPS 3 
LPS 4 
. . . 

*Gee/Alex Power 
*AVN 2-FB (5:3) 

Green Goblin II/Phil Urich/Golden Goblin 
. . . 
SG 98 
SG 99 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

Hawkeye/Clint Barton 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

Hulk/Bruce Banner 
. . . 
LHS 4 
LHS 5 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

Human Torch/Johnny Storm 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

Invisible Woman/Susan Storm Richards 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

Iron Fist/Danny Rand 
. . . 
LHS 4 
LHS 5 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

Iron Man/Tony Stark 
. . . 
FFIVE 1-FB (8:2) 
SG 95-FB (9:4-9:5) 
*AVN 3-FB (2) 
AN 7-FB (7:2-8:3, 12:4-13, 17:2-18) 
SG 95-FB (9:6-10:4) 
. . . 

J2/Zane Yama/Zane Marko 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 1 
*AVN 2 
*AVN 3 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5 

Jarvis, Edwin 
. . . 
LPS 2 
LPS 4 
*AVN 1 
*AVN 2 
*AVN 3 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5 

*Lightspeed/Julie Power 
*AVN 2-FB (5:3) 

Magneta 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

Mainframe 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5 

*Mass Master/Jack Power 
*AVN 2-FB (5:3) 

Mister Fantastic 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 4 

Ms. Fantastic 
. . . 
LPS 3 
LPS 4 
*AVN 4 

Nova/Richard Rider 
. . . 
LHS 5 
LPS 2 
*AVN 2 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5 

Psilord/Franklin Richards 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 4 

Raptor/Brenda "Blackie" Drago 
. . . 
SG 98 
SG 99 
*AVN 4 

Red Queen/Hope Pym 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 4 

Sabreclaw/Hudson 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 1-FB (9:2) 
*AVN 1 
*AVN 2 
*AVN 3 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5 

Scarlet Witch/Wanda Maximoff 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

Speedball/Rob Baldwin 
. . . 
LHS 4 
LHS 5 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

Spider-Girl/May "Mayday" Parker 
. . . 
LPS 5 
ASG 0-BTS 
*AVN 1 
*AVN 2 
*AVN 3 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5 

Spider-Man/Peter Parker 
. . . 
SG 99 
SG 100 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

Steel Spider 
SG 32-FB (14:2-14:5) 
SG 32 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

Stinger/Cassie Lang 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 1 
*AVN 2 
*AVN 3 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5 

*Sylene 
*AVN 3-FB (9:4) 
*AVN 1 
*AVN 2 
*AVN 3 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5 

*Thena 
*AVN 3-FB (9:4, 10:1) 
*AVN 2 
*AVN 3 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5 

Thing/Benjamin Jacob Grimm 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

Thor 
FFIVE 1-FB (8:2) 
*AVN 3-FB (2) 
AN 1 
LHS 4 
. . . 

Thunderstrike/Kevin Masterson 
. . . 
LPS 3 
LPS 4 
*AVN 1 
*AVN 2 
*AVN 3 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5 

*Ulik 
*AVN 1 
*AVN 2 
*AVN 3 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5 

*Ultron Extreme 
*AVN 3-FB (2) 
*AVN 2 
*AVN 3 

Venom Symbiote 
. . . 
SG 99 
SG 100 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

*Warp 
*AVN 1 
*AVN 2 
*AVN 3 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5 

Wild Thing/Rina Logan 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

Wolverine/Logan 
. . . 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 
*AVN 4 
*AVN 5-BTS 

Characters without listings: 
Nancy - An Avengers Mansion employee named Nancy appears in issues 1 & 4. She hasn't been given a last name, and there's no indication at this point that she's going to be an important character. 

------------------------------ 

-Mike

Last edited by michaelyuri on 27 Jan 2007 09:50 am; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jan 2007 03:54 pm    
By PaxHouse

Great work with the analysis with this latest MC2's Mini from Marvel....  

However, you've neglected to mention the 'image' of Katie's team Power Pack; via their 1st appearance of their original series {Presumably for PP [VOL I] #1-#25, prior to their first power exchange within the regular MU}.......
_________________
PaxHouse.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jan 2007 10:41 pm    
By michaelyuri

Good catch. This is in issue #2, page 5, panel 3. I'll update my post to reflect this as soon as I get a chance. 

Update: Done. 

-Mike

			*	*	*

Thread 48

Posted: 24 Aug 2006 11:55 pm    Post subject: Wolverine: Origins 1-5, & misc
By Col_Fury

Wolverine: Origins #1 
Born in Blood pt 1 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: June, 2006 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Dum Dum Dugan, President of the U.S., Secretary of State, a Shiva Robot, Nuke, Black-haired Guy, lots of SHIELD agents. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: Japan, dawn 
Wolverine practices his sword moves. 
Pg3-pg23 
On the Helicarrier, Dum Dum has a conference call with the Secretary of State. An alarm is sounded, because Wolverine is attacking the White House. The President is rushed to safety, as a missile crashes on the White House lawn. Wolverine begins to interrogate the Secretary of State, but is interrupted by a Shiva robot whos emerged from the missile. Shiva disintegrates the Secretary, so Wolverine cuts the robot in half with his magic sword and escapes. Dum Dum is informed that SHIELDs services are no longer required, while in Chile, Nuke is given his orders. 

References: 
Pg1-pg2 pick up directly from Wolverine #40. Its dusk in that issue, so this begins the morning after. 

This certainly reads like its all in one day, but if for whatever reason we need to splice in a break, between pgs 2 & 3 are the only viable slot. 

Later issues will have an editors box telling us that this story occurs before Civil War. Wolverine is also wearing his brown suit, and apparently hell only be wearing it in this series. That would keep things fairly self-contained, I guess. 

They are a mystery group whos apparently been BTS in Wolverines life. The Black-haired Guy, the Secretary of State, Trevor and others all work for them. They dont want Wolverine to find out about his past. But wait, I thought Wolverine now remembered everything about his past 

Wolverine: Origins #2 
Born in Blood pt 2 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: July, 2006 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Dum Dum Dugan, Nuke, PoS, Trevor, Silver Samurai, Black-haired Guy. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4: day after last issue 
The President holds a staff meeting while the missile is removed from the front lawn of the White House. Dum Dum is interrupted, and the President gives Trevor permission to use the Wolverine Solution. Elsewhere, the Mystery Man receives a phone call from Trevor while Nuke has diagnostic checks run on him. 
Pg5-pg7-FB: Vietnam, 1968 
Wolverine & Vietnamese soldiers torture Frank Simpson. 
Pg8-pg11: same day as pg4 
Wolverine meditates. Elsewhere, scientists discover that the Shiva robot was spliced at the molecular level, and not cut. The President & Trevor have a conference call with the Silver Samurai, who tells them about the Muramasa Blade, Wolverines magic sword. Meanwhile, Nuke is airdropped into Vietnam. 
Pg12-pg17-FB: Vietnam, 1968 
Wolverine finishes torturing Frank by carving the American flag onto his face. Frank goes crazy, breaks free, and starts to blow things up while Wolverine watches from afar. 
Pg18-pg22: same day as pg11 
Wolverine feels sorry for himself, gives Trevor a call, then heads to Vietnam to chat with Nuke. 

References: 
All the current day bits are in one day, the day after last issue. 

Wolverine used to be not a very nice person. As shown here, he was a recruiter for the Weapon X agency, and apparently enjoyed torturing people and driving them insane. As with Nuke, his recruits would then be brought into the program. This lines up with what was laid out by Morrison in New X-Men 145, where Captain America was Weapon 1, Nuke was somewhere in between, and Wolverine was Weapon 10. Its just that now, we know that Wolverine recruited Nuke, but we dont know what led to Wolverine being a test subject himself. 

Vietnam 1968 would seem to be solid historical reference, and unaffected by the sliding timescale. 

Wolverine: Origins #3 
Born in Blood pt 3 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: August, 2006 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Nuke, PoS, Trevor, Black-haired Guy, Captain America. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: picks up directly from last issue 
Wolverine & Nuke fight! 
Pg3-pg6-FB: Dayton, Ohio, 1953 
A young Frank Simpson chats with the maid while his parents go out on the town. Frank is given the idea to kill his drunk mother by the maid. 
Pg7-pg11: same day as pg2 
Wolverine & Nuke fight! 
Pg12-pg17-FB: Dayton, Ohio, 1953, same night 
Mr. Simpson drives the maid home, and they have some fun on the side of the road. Wolverine dressed as a policeman shows up and kills the maid, and forces Mr. Simpson to shoot himself. Wolverine then goes to the Simpson home where Frank has already killed his mom, and Wolverine drives off with the kid. 
Pg18-pg22: same day as pg11 
Wolverine & Nuke fight! Meanwhile, Mystery Man talks with Trevor on the phone, while Trevor chats with the President. As Wolverine is about to put Nuke out of his misery, Captain America shows up and interrupts! 

References: 
Dayton, Ohio, 1953... Im not sure that works. See below. 

The maid also worked for the same organization as Wolverine, but she was scared of him. With good reason he killed her! Shot her right in the face! That, and Wolverine must have been with the program long enough at this point to gain a ruthless reputation. 

The current day parts are all in one day, same day as last issue. 

Wolverine: Origins #4 
Born in Blood pt 4 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: September, 2006 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Nuke, Captain America, Emma Frost, Cyclops, Hellion. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: picking up from last issue 
Emma Frost has a dream about Wolverine and wakes up in bed next to Cyclops. She contacts Wolverine telepathically, while hes fighting Captain America. He tells her hes busy. Cap & Wolverine injure each other, fight some more, Nuke wakes up, and Wolverine starts to go into a berserker rage. Cyclops, Emma, & Hellion arrive and stop Wolverine from killing Captain America. 

References: 
Its now night time in New York, and its still day time in Vietnam. All in one day. 

So while Cap & Wolverine fight, Emma wakes up Cyclops & Hellion, they get dressed, and fly from New York to Vietnam? How fast is the Blackbird, anyway? 

Wolverine: Origins #5 
Born in Blood pt 5 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: October, 2006 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Nuke, Captain America, Emma Frost, Cyclops, Hellion, Sabretooth-FB, Itsus corpse-FB, Red Hat Mystery Guy-FB. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6: picking up from last issue 
Everyone fights, and Emma tells Wolverine that they have Wolverines son. 
Pg7-FB 
A guy in a red cloak takes Wolverines infant son from his wifes, Itsus, corpse. 
Pg8: same day as pg6 
Emma tells Wolverine that his son has been brainwashed, but she doesnt know where he is. 
Pg9-FB: follows W2 10-FB 
Wolverines in a pit, taunted by a guy in a red cloak & red hat as Sabretooth watches. 
Pg10pn1: same day as pg8 
Wolverine thinks 
Pg10pn2-FB 
Repeat of W: O #4-FB, no new info. 
Pg10pn3-FB 
Sabretooth kills Silver Fox. 
Pg10pn4(of 4): same day as pg10pn1 
Hellions confused. 
Pg11-FB 
Silver Fox teaches Wolverine how to love again. 
Pg12pn1-FB 
Wolverine finds Silver Foxs corpse. 
Pg12pn2-pg12pn4-FB 
Repeat of W2 10, no new info. 
Pg12pn5(of 5)-FB 
Sabretooth drags an unconscious Wolverine off. 
Pg13-pg15pn1-FB: follows pg9-FB 
Wolverine is then taunted by Sabretooth, he goes crazy and kills the entire town he lived near. 
Pg15pn2-FB 
Nuke, now with a flag tattooed on his face, fights in Vietnam. 
Pg15pn3-FB? 
Wolverines son has killed some people with a knife. 
Pg16-pg22: same day as pg10pn4 
Wolverine gives his magic sword to Cyclops just in case. He then heads off to find his son. 

References: 
The current day bits are all in one day, same day as last issue. 

Not that Wolverine appears on pg7-FB, but in the overall sequence of things, it would fit between pgs 11 & 12 of Wolverine #40. 

Pg9-FB follows the death of Silver Fox as shown in Wolverine v2 #10, which is followed by pg13-pg15pn1. But wait, Silver Fox didnt really die 

Would pg15pn3 be a real FlashBack? Or is it what Wolverine thinks his son would be doing? Im leaning towards the latter 

... 

Current day: (36-40 & W: O 1-5) 
Wolverine fights Silver Samurai, Bucky, Nuke, & Captain America. Thats about it. 

FB: (36-40 & W: O 1-5) 
Wolverine was married to Itsu, as just revealed in Wolverine 36-40, and they had a kid whos been brainwashed by them. Itsu is dead, who was killed by Bucky. I still dont know who the Red Hat Mystery Guy is. Wolverine was recruited by Sabretooth, with the help of the Red Hat Mystery Guy. Wolverine recruited Nuke into the Weapon Plus Project. All of which occurred before Wolverine was given an adamantium skeleton. 

Almost nothing is going on in the current day, and it took 10 issues to get this far with the FlashBacks? Wolverine started out as seeking revenge because he now has all of his memories, and yet he doesnt seem to know too much. Hes looking for the mystery people who are behind the scenes, and isnt making any progress. Hes then told about a kid he never knew about, from left field, and goes off to do that. How long will it take to get back to the main plot? Whos the guy in the Red Hat? Why are his memories suddenly not so complete? Why am I reminded of Howard Mackie on Ghost Rider? At least it laid out a time-line, more or less. See below. 

These five issues follow directly behind Wolverine 36-40, which itself followed closely behind HoM. This is still the fallout of Wolverine regaining his memories. Im not sure how that lines up with other books, but thats the creators intent, anyway. 

As for the FlashBacks 

W3 38 has a couple of FlashBacks that intersect with M/CPs Weapon X story. If Mr. York doesnt mind, I think Ill leave that for him. He did such a great job with it here crap! Its in the archives already. Overhauling Weapon X is in the March, 2005 archive if anyones interested. 

 

L: PW pg1-pg9 
Wolverine, working for Landau, Luckman, & Lake, is on a spy mission. 
W3 40-FB pg2-pg6(1951-ish to early 1956, see below) 
Wolverine arrives in Jasmine Falls and meets Itsu. Ogun once told him to come here, and the village accepts him. 
L: PW pg10-pg49 
Years later, Wolverine is in Jasmine Falls and is approached to work one more mission for LLL. He does, and returns to Jasmine Falls. 
W3 40-FB pg7-pg11(1951-ish to early 1956, see below) 
After some time,(about 5 years or so) Wolverine marries Itsu and she becomes pregnant. One night a celebration is held, but Wolverine becomes startled and injures someone. Hes thrown out of the village for his final test. 
BTS- Winter Soldier kills Itsu. 
W: O 5-FB pg7-FB 
A guy in a red cloak takes Wolverines infant son from Itsus corpse. 
W3 40-FB pg12-pg14 
Wolverine returns to the village to find that Itsu has been killed. 
W3 40-FB pg16-pg18 
Wolverine leaves the town to confront Muramasa, who lives on a nearby volcano. 
W3 38-FB pg11-pg13 
Muramasa finishes torturing Wolverine. His men untie him from the tree and they begin to take him away. 
W3 40-FB pg19pn6-pg20pn2 
Bucky watches Muramasas men haul Wolverine away from the torture site. 
W3 38-FB pg14-pg18 
Wolverine wakes up to see some of Muramasas men dead. Bucky(or Winter Soldier) kills the rest as Wolverine watches. 

 

Obviously this bit has to occur after WWII if Bucky is up and running as Winter Soldier. But when? 

For Bucky, he was still being field tested in November of 1954, and didnt start on field missions until January of 1955. In CA5 11-FB, a mission history of sorts of the Winter Soldier is laid out for us, and it shows one mission in Madripoor on 1 January, 1956. Bucky mentions to Wolverine in W3 40 that the reason he had been sent to kill his wife was to draw Wolverine back to Madripoor. Again in CA5 11-FB, Bucky has another mission on 1 April, 1956 in Algeria. 

It seems to me that the FlashBacks seen in these Wolverine issues fit between 1 January 1956 & 1 April 1956. So Buckys chronology should have these W3-FBs between pgs 11 & 12 of CA5 11. 

Logan: Path of the Warlord was a one-shot that also showed Wolverine at Jasmine Falls: 

L: PW pg1-pg9 
Wolverine, working for Landau, Luckman, & Lake, is on a spy mission. 
L: PW pg10-pg49 
Years later, Wolverine is in Jasmine Falls and is approached to work one more mission for LLL. He does, and returns to Jasmine Falls. 

Since W3 40-FB pg2-pg6 shows Wolverine arriving in Jasmine Falls, and theres a years later break in both sequences, this works out pretty nicely. 

 

W: O 5-FB pg11 
Silver Fox teaches Wolverine how to love again. 
W: O 5-FB pg10pn3-FB 
Sabretooth kills Silver Fox. 
W: O 5-FB pg12pn1 
Wolverine finds Silver Foxs body. 
W2 10-FB 
Wolverine & Sabretooth fight. 
W: O 5-FB pg12pn5 
Sabretooth drags an unconscious Wolverine off. 
W: O 5-FB pg9-FB 
Wolverines in a pit, taunted by a guy in a red cloak & red hat as Sabretooth watches. 
W: O 5-FB pg13-pg15pn1: follows pg9-FB 
Wolverine is then taunted by Sabretooth, he goes crazy and kills the entire town he lived near. 

 

Wolverine left Japan after Itsus death, and eventually met Silver Fox who taught him how to love again. Sabretooth then recruits Wolverine into the Weapon Plus program. Silver Foxs death is his initiation, and after this he works for the program. 

But wait if Wolverine isnt with the program until after this, which is after early 1956, how can he be working for the program, with a reputation of being ruthless, in 1953? I smell lack of Winter Soldier research on Mr. Ways part. Chalk 1953 up to a typo/mistake, and call it 1958. If you have to call it anything. 

 

W: O 3-FB pg3-pg6: Dayton, Ohio 
A young Frank Simpson chats with the maid while his parents go out on the town. Frank is given the idea to kill his drunk mother by the maid. 
W: O 3-FB pg12-pg17: Dayton, Ohio 
Mr. Simpson drives the maid home, and they have some fun on the side of the road. Wolverine dressed as a policeman shows up and kills the maid, and forces Mr. Simpson to shoot himself. Wolverine then goes to the Simpson home where Frank has already killed his mom, and Wolverine drives off with the kid. 

 

So now Wolverine is working with the program, and recruiting people just as Sabretooth recruited him. Hell be doing this for a while. 

 

W: O 2-FB pg5-pg7: Vietnam, 1968 
Wolverine & Vietnamese soldiers torture Frank Simpson. 
W: O 2-FB pg12-pg17: Vietnam, 1968 
Wolverine finishes torturing Frank by carving the American flag onto his face. Frank goes crazy, breaks free, and starts to blow things up while Wolverine watches from afar. 

 

Wolverine has now fully recruited Nuke into the Weapon Plus program. Hell eventually be picked up and given robotic parts, making him Weapon 9, I guess. Maybe Weapon 8. Sometime after this Wolverine will become Weapon 10, of course. 

 

As long as Im in this area, W2 78-FB shows Wolverine at Normandy, fighting with a knife. W2 34-FB also shows Wolverine at Normandy, but he parachutes in first, then begins fighting with a knife. Currently in his chronology, 78-FB is listed before 34-FB. Since he needs to get on the ground before he can be on the ground, those two should be switched around. 

W2 106-FB shows Corporal Logan in WWII. The British had sent people to Greece to help out, one of which was Wolverine. In real history, this happened in February 1941. Currently, its placed in Wolverines chronology around his Team-X days, and should be moved earlier, to before UX 286-FB, which was in August 1941. 

UX 213-FB shows Wolverine in the snow after a traumatic fight with Sabretooth. There was a traumatic fight with Sabretooth later shown in W2 10-FB, both of these issue were written by Claremont. This one traumatic event was one of the memories Wolverine was allowed to keep, so it should probably be moved later to coincide with W2 10. 

UX 140-FB & UX 147-FB shows Wolverine arguing with the Hudsons, at their house and at Department H respectively. In his chronology, UX 147-FB is currently placed before he gets his adamantium skeleton. This cant work, because the Hudsons dont meet Logan until after he escapes the Weapon X compound. UX 140-FB is currently listed before the Husdons find him, but after he gets the new skeleton. Both should be moved a little later, to just before W2 -1. 

Not to bring up the X-Men: True Friends debate, but Wolverines past day appearance in issues 2 & 3 are oddly misplaced. The majority of the series occurs in 1936, with a contemporary Logan *in* 1936. Currently in his chronology, these issues are listed after hes been given an adamantium skeleton, and before he fights the Hulk. Since this time frame is clearly not 1936, they should be moved earlier to just before his WWII appearances. 

Strangely, Im not seeing Alpha Flight 34-FB in Wolverines chronology. This is where the Hudsons find the feral Wolverine in the Canadian wilderness. 

I also threw in some page/panel ranges for the Team-X Flashbacks shown in X-Men 5-7 & various issues of Wolverine. Also, X 6-FB shows Team-X disbanding, so there shouldn't be any more 'Team-X' appearances after that. I moved some of the FlashBacks around, notes are included below. Let me know if there's any questions! 

As revealed in W2 40-FB, Logan trained with Ogun before he went to Jasmine Falls, and therefore before Logan met Silver Fox. They're(W2 103-FB & W2 169-FB) currently listed in Wolverines chronology as after Silver Fox,(W2 65-FB) and should now be moved earlier thanks to this new information. 

All dates noted in parentheses are stated in the comics. 

Wolverine/Logan/James Howlett 
 
W2 113-FB told of Ogun 
W2 126-FB meets Seraph, Viper 
W2 5-FB LLL, photo w/ Chang 
L: PW pg1-pg9 LLL mission 
UX 257-FB LLL, photo w/ Rosie 
*X:TF 2 (1936) 
*X:TF 3 (1936) 
*W2 106-FB in WWII 
UX 268-FB (08/41) 
*W2 34-FB (06/06/44) pg8pn2-pg8pn3, pg13pn3-pg14, pg21 
*W2 78-FB (06/06/44) 
*W2 103-FB meets Ogun 
*W2 169-FB trains w/ Ogun 
W3 40-FB pg2-pg6 
L: PW pg10-pg49 
W3 40-FB pg7-pg14 
W3 40-FB pg16-pg18 
W3 38-FB pg11-pg13 
W3 40-FB pg19pn6-pg20pn2 
W3 38-FB pg14-pg18 
W2 65-FB 
W: O 5-FB pg11-pg12pn1 
W2 10-FB 
*UX 213-FB in snow, after fight w/ ST 
W: O 5-FB pg12pn5 
W: O 5-FB pg9-FB 
W: O 5-FB pg13-pg15pn1 
W: O 3-FB pg3-pg6 
W: O 3-FB pg12-pg17 
W2 61-FB pg12pn4-pg14 Team-X in Cuba 
W: O 2-FB pg5-pg7 (1968) 
W: O 2-FB pg12-pg17 (1968) 
W2 68-FB (late 68) Team-X & Epsilon Red 
W2 61-FB pg8 Team-X in Vietnam 
W2 9-FB-FB-BTS in Iraq 
X 5-FB pg10pn1-pg10pn3 Team-X arrives 
X 7-FB pg3pn2-pg3pn3, pg3pn4-pg3pn5 Team-X goes in 
X 5-FB pg18-pg19pn2-pn3 Team-X finds Janice 
X 6-FB pg5-pg6 Creed shoots Janice, out window 
X 7-FB pg6 Team-X in the water 
W2 60-FB Wraith picks up Team-X 
W2 61-FB pg9pn4-pg10pn4 Team-X fights Omega Red 
X 6-FB pg14 Team-X disbands 
UX 228-FB vs. Zaitsev 
UTSM -1 meets Parkers, Agent Ten 
M/CP 72 
 
Weapon X 
 
M/CP 84 (20 - 24) 
W2 34-FB pg5pn3, pg18pn4-pg18pn5, pg5pn4-pg5pn5 escapes bear trap 
AF 34-FB pg11pn1 Heather shoots Logan 
W2 -1-FB Logan recoils from shot, later is scared by claws 
AF 43-FB pg11pn2-pg11pn3 Heather comforts Logan 
*UX 140-FB Logan argues @ the Hudsons 
*UX 147-FB Logan argues w/ Hudsons @ Dept H 
W2 -1 
 

That should just about do it for now, just in time for more insertions from future issues of Wolverine: Origins!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Aug 2006 10:25 am    
By Somebody

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Almost nothing is going on in the current day, and it took 10 issues to get this far with the FlashBacks? Wolverine started out as seeking revenge because he now has all of his memories, and yet he doesnt seem to know too much. Hes looking for the mystery people who are behind the scenes, and isnt making any progress. Hes then told about a kid he never knew about, from left field, and goes off to do that. How long will it take to get back to the main plot? Whos the guy in the Red Hat? Why are his memories suddenly not so complete? 
<<<

According to Way in interviews, he doesn't just remember his whole life, but he remembers everything he's ever remembered. Including the memory implants that got zapped in Hama's run. 

Whether this makes any level of sense, I don't know, but there it is...

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Aug 2006 11:43 am    
By Dhall

According to Wolv2 48-50, W2 10-FB is a memory implant, and therefore should not be listed in Logan's chronology. 

Dave H.

			*	*	*

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Whether this makes any level of sense, I don't know, but there it is... 
<<<

I'll have to look around for that interview. 


Dhall wrote: 
>>>
According to Wolv2 48-50, W2 10-FB is a memory implant 
<<<

True, but according to W: O 5 it actually happened. That was the catalyst to get Wolverine working for the Program. In the past it's been revealed to be false, but now that revelation has been reversed. The letters page even points us to W2 10 to get the full story! 

As we all know, there have been a lot of reversals in Wolverine's past, and it seems that the point of this series is to set all of that straight. How long that takes, who knows, but it seems obvious to me that old information is now suspect. Things we thought we knew may no longer be valid, like 'W2 10-FB is a memory implant,' and I'm sure there will be more. 

The next issue (6) deals with Omega Red, and apparently there are plans to get to Sabretooth. Whether any of this is verified beyond what we've seen in issue 5, I guess we'll find out soon enough. 

The tricky point is Silver Fox turning up alive in the Larry Hama run, but how many times have characters died to be ressurected in various ways? When she returned she was working for Hydra, so it's not that far of a stretch to think they brought her back from being dead...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Aug 2006 12:18 pm    
By jephyork
Director

W2 #10-FB never happened. That's been very, very firmly established. 

And yet, W:O #5-FB works with the premise that W2 #10-FB was real, then expands on those events, then claims that those events are what led to Wolvie being inducted into working for Weapon X/Weapon Plus/Team X in the first place? 

That's booshwah. W2 #63-65 did a whole arc about how the entire thing was implanted by Psi-Borg. We even saw the studio set that the memory was "filmed" on in W2 #49. There can be no serious denying that it was a faked memory. 

Ugh. I'm going to have to go read this issue now, then see if I can come up with any context under which the FB can stand. Was there maybe a similar event to W2 #10-FB in Logan's real life (Sabretooth *wounding* Silver Fox, then fighting Logan, then dragging him *and Silver Fox* away to work for Weapon X), that Psi-Borg just expanded upon when he implanted the memory? And even though W2 #10-FB is an implanted memory, where we see Silver Fox "die" -- W:O #5 is the real-life version, and should be allowed to stand? 

Bah. I hate this implanted-memory nonsense. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Aug 2006 12:33 pm
By Col_Fury

I remember reading somewhere that Way had done extensive Wolverine research before embarking on this mission. It seems that his research skipped all of Larry Hama's run... 

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And even though W2 #10-FB is an implanted memory, where we see Silver Fox "die" -- W:O #5 is the real-life version, and should be allowed to stand?  
<<<

Maybe. But we have the letters page, almost the same things as an editor's caption in this case, directing us to W2 10. What a mess. 

Is it possible that Psi-Borg etc were trying to fool Wolverine into thinking that W2 10-FB was false, when it was actually real? I only re-read the FlashBack scenes to get this together, I'm going to have to go back and re-read W2 63-65 entirely and see if that even works. 

And I'm going to have to find that Way interview.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Aug 2006 01:00 pm    
By jephyork
Director

W2 #63-65 seemed to me to be implying that in real life, Psi-Borg tried to rape Silver Fox, and she knocked his tooth out. That's where the origin of Sabretooth's line "she was an uppity squaw ... she said no" in W2 #10-FB was from -- Psi-Borg really said it, and then incorporated it into the implanted memory. (Silver Fox's medicine pouch was revealed to contain Psi-Borg's missing tooth.) 

What portions of W2 #10-FB are corroborated in W:O #5-FB? It's entirely possible that only PART of the W2 #10-FB is false. The only "set" we saw in W2 #49 was the bar with the slice of birthday cake. The outdoors fight might have been real. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Aug 2006 09:44 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

I seem to remember something about using a lot of Logan's memories as spring boards for the memory implants, especially the highs and lows of his life. It's been a while since I read the issues, so I could be wrong.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Aug 2006 12:50 am    
By Col_Fury

Heres a quick breakdown: 

W: O 5 pg10pn1 
Picture: Close up of Wolverine thinking, current day. 
Narration: They dragged him(Logans son) in 

W: O 5 pg10pn2 
Picture: Repeated, as noted above. Logan, dressed as a policeman, shoots the undercover maid. 
Narration: Just like they made me do to Nuke 

W: O 5 pg10pn3 
Picture: Sabretooth kills Silver Fox. Hes holding her down with his left hand while stabbing her with a knife in his right. She & he are dressed as they were in W2 10-FB. New information. 
Narration: just like they did to me. 

W: O 5 pg10pn4 
Picture: Emma Frost & Hellion watch Wolverine think, current day. 
Narration: Her name was Silver Fox. 

W: O 5 pg11pn1 
Picture: Logan & Silver Fox eat dinner. 
Narration: She was Blackfoot an her husband had died three winters before. I used to see her out in the woods when I went huntin. Maybe it was cause she didnt have anybody else but eventually, she became my woman. She was a beautiful woman, an strong -- she taught me how to trap. 

W: O 5 pg11pn2 
Picture: Logan & Silver Fox smile at each other. 
Narration: She taught me how to love again. 

W: O 5 pg11pn3 
Picture: Logan gets his hat and rifle. 
Narration: none. 

W: O 5 pg11pn4 
Picture: Logan & Silver Fox look at the fireplace. 
Narration: That mornin, as I was leavin, I remember thinkin how warm the fire was 

W: O 5 pg11pn5 
Picture: Logan leaves the cabin. Snow everywhere, and we can see his breath. 
Narration: an how it made it seem all the more cold outside. 

W: O 5 pg12pn1 
Picture: Logan in the doorway of the cabin, looking at Silver Foxs dead body. 
Narration: When I came back, she was dead. 

W: O 5 pg12pn2 
Picture: Repeat of W2 10 pg3pn1, different angle. Close up of Sabretooth holding a glass, same hat & clothes, no dialogue. 
Narration: It didnt take me long to figure out who killed her. 

W: O 5 pg12pn3 
Picture: Repeat of W2 10 pg5pn3. Logan attacks Sabretooth, same clothes for both, Sabretooths hat flies off, no dialogue. 
Narration: We fought. 

W: O 5 pg12pn4 
Picture: Repeat pf W2 10 pg9pn5. Sabretooth hits Logan with a 2x4, same clothes for both, same pose, no dialogue. 
Narration: none. 

W: O 5 pg12pn5 
Picture: Sabretooth drags an unconscious Logan away. 
Narration: I lost. 

And then of course on the letters page, in the the story thus far box: 

The death of Silver Fox and the first meeting between Sabretooth and Wolverine: 
Wolverine(volume 2) #10 

To answer your question, basically all of W2 10-FB is corroborated. The encounter at the bar and the fight outside. The only bit not shown in FlashBack in W: O 5 is the slice of cake, and there's no dialogue quoted. However, there's that 'story thus far' box that tells us to read W2 10. It seems the intent is that all of W2 10-FB 'counts.' 

In W2 50 pg16pn2, as Wolverine is crashing through sets, he passes through one that resembles what was shown in W2 10 pg3pn3. The set is of the bar where Logan encountered Sabretooth, complete with a cake with pink frosting. W2 10 pg3pn1 is where Sabretooth says Happens, boy. Specially to squaws uppity enough to say no, and this is the repeated panel in close up with no dialogue in W: O 5 pg12pn2. W2 10 pg3pn3 is where Sabretooth tastes some frosting, and this is the set shown in W2 50. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
W2 #63-65 seemed to me to be implying that in real life, Psi-Borg tried to rape Silver Fox, and she knocked his tooth out. 
<<<

Psi-Borg says in W2 64: 
"We all know she didn't die back then, don't we? But, if she didn't die - - what was the great traumatic event, that was used as the catalyst in the implanting of your false memories? Didn't you ever wonder what was inside Silver Fox's medicine pouch...?" "...but right now, let's burn that pouch away and take a look!" 

A tooth is revealed to be in the pouch. 

"Ha ha ha! That uppity squaw said 'no,' and she knocked out my tooth!" 

Later in said issue: 
Wolverine: 
It didn't happen! Silver Fox is alive today, so she couldn't have been killed by Sabretooth... it was all a lie! A memory implant! Made up by you!" 
Psi-Borg: 
"That's about the size of it..." 



jephyork wrote: 
>>>
That's where the origin of Sabretooth's line "she was an uppity squaw ... she said no" in W2 #10-FB was from -- Psi-Borg really said it, and then incorporated it into the implanted memory. 
<<<

It should be said, I interpreted this the same way you did, and for years, that's what I thought as well. However, Psi-Borg only implied, and phrased all of his statements as questions. And even if he did just state it, can we trust anything that's been revealed by Psi-Borg? 

With the way Psi-Borg was manipulating everyone's thoughts in W2 63-65, is it possible that he was just 'showing' Wolverine a tooth? Or, at some point as Psi-Borg was implanting flase memories in a revived/resurrected Silver Fox, he tried to rape her and she did knock out his tooth? And then later in W2 64, Psi-Borg was quoting Sabretooth to taunt Wolverine? 



Andy Holcombe wrote: 
>>>
I seem to remember something about using a lot of Logan's memories as spring boards for the memory implants, especially the highs and lows of his life. 
<<<

Also from W2 64: 
Wolverine: 
"It was real?" 

Psi-Borg: 
"It had to be real, stupid -- or else the pain wouldn't have been deep enough --" 

So yeah, Psi-Borg admits that he wasn't creative enough to come up with his own scenes, he had to alter 'real' events. But it's an admission from Psi-Borg. Ugh. 

So where does that leave us? Ignore Psi-Borg's revelations? I really need to find that Way interview. Maybe he'll cover Silver Fox's 'resurrection' in a future issue? Yeah, right...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Aug 2006 01:29 am    
By Col_Fury

Here's bits of one: 
Quote: 
>>>
Which is why Way is incorporating just about everything from Logan's past into Wolverine: Origins. He's taking it all, putting it into a bit more order, and then planning for what could happen next or how to present what's already gone before. "Some of the things in his past that weren't built so well are being presented in a different way," Way said. "Maybe some of it is a misperception: like did he go to other dimensions and fight weird creatures? Probably not. More likely the 1960s were just a strange time for everyone. I don't think his origin is really screwed up [as some people believe it to be]. I think it's just never really been told in a cohesive way. You always got a little piece and part - some that outright contradict a piece you got before. When you deal with someone with false memories and programming, it plays well with the story - especially where I'm going with Wolverine: Origins. There should be contradictions, glitches, and points where he goes crazy. In fact one is usually the result of the other."  
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
"We have a 'real time' story going on, which is Logan's quest for revenge against those pulling his strings for the past 100 years give or take. And, as he's going on and moving forward in this quest tracking down leads and heading back into the past, we get to see what he's remembering in the flashbacks. So, eventually, we'll have all the connective tissue between everything we've seen before and what has happened in-between the scenes. We will see what happens from point X to point Y. We will have connected all the dots. While we have a real time story to keep it relevant to the 'now', we're also having flashbacks in every issue to the undiscovered secret origin of Wolverine. We're trying to show all the things he's done in the past, that you didn't see before in the comic books." 
<<<

It also mentions that he did about a year of research before starting this. And there's some cursing. He also warned us that there's a big revelation in issue 5 coming up. I wonder if he's talking about Silver Fox, or the kid we never knew about?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Aug 2006 10:37 am    
By Somebody

The one I'm thinking of was at Newarama, IIRC, but Newsarama's search is mostly borked - I remember the nightmare I had trying to find the first Carey X-Men interview there before...

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Aug 2006 10:58 am    
By jephyork
Director

Thanks for all of that, Col_Fury. 

Quote: 
>>>
basically all of W2 10-FB is corroborated. 
<<<

That's not true -- only the three panels you quoted are corroborated. As you said, there's no dialogue, and we don't see the slice of cake (which we DO see on the stage set in W2 #50 -- to me this is significant). Also, we don't see the fight spill outside and lead to the fall down the cliff. 

Here's my take: 

- We know from Psi-Borg that there was a traumatic event in Logan's past that he used to help cement the memory. 

- It is implied that Psi-Borg tried to rape Silver Fox, and she knocked out his tooth -- and that this event is where we got the "uppity squaw" line. It is further implied that this was the traumatic event in question -- but not stated outright. 

- Obviously Silver Fox didn't die. And we now know that this fight was just Sabretooth testing Wolverine. It can therefore be inferred that Sabretooth didn't really kill her -- he just made Logan think he did, so that they'd fight. (To me, it is significant that we DO NOT have corroboration of Logan carrying Silver Fox's dead body into the bar, as he did in W2 #10-FB.) This isn't really a chronology issue, but explains how she can be still alive without invalidating the scene. (Also, we know that *she* was later a Weapon X operative as well -- maybe this event was where Sabretooth recruited *both* of them?) 

So, here's what I think happened... 

Sabretooth severely wounded Silver Fox, to the point where Logan would think she was dead. (It's possible that he had Weapon X doctors save her life later, or it's possible that he used a decoy corpse, or ... any explanation that would leave her still alive.) 

Logan attacked Sabretooth, and they had the fight seen in W:O #5-FB. The fight ended with Logan being dragged off by Sabretooth to work for the Weapon X Program. (Or Weapon Plus, or Team X, or whatever you want to call it.) 

Later, once Silver Fox had also been conscripted to work with Team X, and Psi-Borg had been hired to give everyone false memories, Psi-Borg tried to rape Silver Fox. She knocked his tooth out. 

Psi-Borg, ever the sadist, remixed elements of this event into the false memories he was employed to create. Using the traumatic events of W:O #5-FB as the emotional basis, he created the false memory we see in W2 #10 -- including events like the "uppity squaw" line and the slice of birthday cake, which we saw on the stage set. 

So, long story short, my take is that W:O #5-FB is real, and W2 #10-FB is a fake memory that expands on those real events. 

Thoughts? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Aug 2006 01:32 pm    
By Col_Fury

Ah! OK, that works. It actually happened as shown in W: O 5-FB, and some details were changed(such as dialogue, Logan carrying Silver Fox's body, etc) by Psi-Borg to be the flase/altered memory shown in W2 10-FB. If any readers are interested in how Logan remembered the details, they're pointed to W2 10-FB in the letters page. 

So an updated chronology suggestion would look like this: 

Wolverine/Logan/James Howlett 
... 
W2 65-FB 
W: O 5-FB pg11-pg12pn4 
UX 213-FB 
W: O 5-FB pg12pn5 
W: O 5-FB pg9 
W: O 5-FB pg13-pg15pn1 
... 

Also, I found another one: 
Quote: 
>>>
Following the events of House of M, Wolverine regained all of his memories. The false details of his life, implanted by the Weapon X program, are gone. Wolverine remembers everything. As Way explains, Origins is "the untold secret history of Wolverine. This is the stuff that's always been suspected and always talked around, but never talked about." 
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
According to Way, we're going to discover that "some things we thought were true, [are] admitted falsely. We're paying attention to all the previous continuity, but we are dissecting it, not necessarily deconstructing it." 
<<<

Quote: 
>>>
"There's a revelation in the fifth issue which will have massive repercussions that Wolverine will be dealing with for the rest of this series," Way promised. Alonso added that there are actually two revelations in Origins #5 and that there will be major changes for Logan that will have a long-lasting effect on the character. 

We know one thing for certain, Sabretooth is catalyst in some way for one of these past events. " In the fifth issue, Sabretooth shows up [in a flashback and plays] a pivotal role in how Logan became Wolverine."  
<<<

As I understand Way's intentions, I think he's thinking that all of Logan's revealed-to-be-false memories are at least partly real, so we may see more of this in future issues. Meaning 'such and such FB happened, but not as shown/the details are different,' if that makes sense. I guess what I'm saying is, be prepared for more conversations like this as more issues of W: O come out.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Sep 2006 10:01 pm    
By Col_Fury

Here's an interesting update from the letters page of Wolverine: Origins #6. A curious readers asks: 

"In Wolverine #69, Logan says, "I haven't got all them false memory implants clutterin' up my brain anymore. I know what my real past really is now an' I can deal with it." Did he lose his memories again later or am I missing something?" 

And the answer from Daniel way himself: 

"The dialogue you're referencing, I believe, refers to something that Logan 'learned' from Psi-Borg, who was part of the Weapon X project... and, therefore, would never actually tell Logan the truth. Prior to House of M, Logan has never had all of his real memories revealed to him." 

Another question from the same reader: 

"Didn't Silver Fox reappear years later when Team X reunited and then Sabretooth really killed her in Wolverine 62-63?" 

And again, from Mr. Way hinself: 

"Yes, she did(and it was in #64). This was right after...etc... Good question, by the way-- this is all material that will be explored later in the series. 

So there we go. The intent seems to be that anything revealed by Psi-Borg is false, and that he will be dealing with Sliver Fox... sometime. 

For now, I think the solution we came to above works just fine. But whenever Silver Fox pops up in the future, and only if somehow it's proven, in the comics, that Psi-Borg was lying, I guess we'll deal with it then.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Sep 2006 11:14 am    
By Somebody

It wasn't Psi-Borg who revealed it all. It was Epsilon Red's daughter.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jan 2007 11:44 pm    
By Col_Fury

Wolverine vol3 50 is out, and we have more FlashBacks that match Wolverine vol2 10. 

Sabretooth kills Silver Fox on Wolverine's birthday, he carries her body to the bar, we don't see inside the bar, but we do see the fight as it spills out into the street. We don't see the fight go to a cliff, however. 

And no, we don't see a birthday cake. 

So I guess we have a new FlashBack that expands on the ones seen in Wolverine: Origins 5, but still nothing that brings Wolverine vol2 10 back in line. 

I suppose we could assume that the Program brought Silver Fox back to life when they recruited her, since we've now seen Wolverine carry her body into town 'again'...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 49

Posted: 13 Jan 2007 05:35 pm    Post subject: Alpha Flight 2 -1
By Dhall

Alpha Flight 2 -1 
July 1997 
Vows 

Characters Appearing: 
Wolverine 
James MacDonald Hudson 
Heather McNeil/ Heather Hudson (maiden name should be added to her listing) 
Jerry Jaxxon 
Gary Cody 
Puck 
Heathers parents 
Flex 
Radius 
Clarke, Major (make sure this is the same char as Gen Clarke) 
Chinook 

Page 1-2: Outside a church, Logan straightens James tie, then they go in where Heather is waiting for them. James starts to flashback about how they met. 
Page 3-21: flashbacks 
Page 3: All new material: Heather gets an introduction to James, when he has a meeting with Jerry Jaxxon to discuss his new idea for a powered suit. 
Page 4: Panel 1: New material. Jerry Jaxxon explains to Mac that his project is being sold to the Americans. This occurs right before page 1 of AF 2/2 
Page 4 Panels 2-5: Are a flashback to previously seen events in AF 2/2 
Page 4 Panel 6: Is a flashback to previously seen events in AF 3/2 
Page 5 Panel 1: Is a continuation of Mac and Heathers meeting with Canadian Officials, and comes after Page 4 of AF 3/2. 
Page 5: Panels 2-4: Heather makes Mac leave his lab to go on a date. All new-material 
Page 5: Panel 5: Heather fails to get Mac to leave his lab for another date. 
(Mac appears again in AF 3/2 Page 5 panel 1 sometime in the middle of these flashbacks.) 
Page 6: Heather makes Mac agree to marry her, he does agree, then Gary Cody pulls him away to discuss a project. 
Page 7: Mac is against Codys proposal to build a Cosmic Ray Collector. 
Page 8 Panels 1-3: In Orloo, this project is already under way, Clarke is in charge, while Puck is a worker on the project. 
Page 8 Panels 4-7: Heather and Macs first wedding. Since Mac doesnt have time for a formal Catholic wedding, Heathers parents will not consider them married, though Heather is willing to go along with it. Mac promises her a more formal wedding later on. 
Page 9: Panels 1-3: Mac comes home to tell Heather about the honeymoon, up north, as the Department H is willing to foot the bill. 
Page 9: Panels 4-5: New material, occurs between Pages of AF 33-FB: Heather and Mac speculate on why Dept. H would want to build a facility up north, while Logan stalks them. 
Page 9: Panel 6: Previously seen material, from AF 33-FB, Logan attacks, Mac fires and misses. Heather shouts Mac 
Page 10: Panels 1-5: Previously seen material, from AF 33-FB, Logan and Mac fight, Heather goes for the gun. Heather shoots, they examine Logan. 
(Logan and Heather appear in the rest of AF 33-FB here.) 
Page 11: Back at home, Mac cancels the big church wedding on Heather, as he is too busy studying Logan, whom he has floating in a vat. 
(Mac and Logan appear again in AF 3/2 Page 5 panel 2 here.) 

Page 12-21: Cody notifies Mac, and Logan about a disaster at the Cosmic Ray Collector. Heather chases them, as she is not going to let Mac postpone the wedding again. Puck sees a big flash of light, and interrupts his game with Flex and Radius (who are orphans at the Hull House) to go check it out. 
Clarke, explains to Puck, Logan, and Mac about the Ray Collector, and they go stop it. 
A WW II superhero, named Chinook shows up to help, but is turned into a monster by the cosmic rays. 
Puck, Logan, and Mac manage to stop the problem, by feeding Chinook back to the Ray Collector, shutting off the rift. They almost get pulled into the rift, but Heather saves them. 
Cody shows up to talk to Mac about the collector. Heather gives Mac an ultimatum, that he will marry her Now. 

Page 22-23: (Not a flashback) The actual wedding. Heather throws the bouquet, and Logan catches it. 



BOX II/JERRY JAXXON 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Page 3) 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Page 4 panel 1) 
*AF 2/2 
AF 12 

CODY, GARY 
AF2 1-FB 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Pages 7-8) 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Page 21) 
AF 10/2 
AF 17-FB 
{UX 109} 
AF 92-FB 
UX 121-BTS 
AF 51-FB 
AF 1 

GUARDIAN/JAMES MACDONALD HUDSON 
*AF 2 -1 FB (pg 3) 
*AF 2 -1 FB (pg 4 panel 1) 
AF 2/2 
AF 3/2 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Pg.5 panel 1) 
*AF 2 -1 FB (pg. 5 panel 2-5) 
*AF 3/2 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Page 6-7) 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Page 8 Panels 4-7) 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Page 9 panels 1-3) 
AF 34-FB 

AF 33-FB 
*AF 2 -1 -FB (Page 9 Panels 4-5) 
*AF 33-FB 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Page 11) 
AF 3/2 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Pages 12-21) 
W2 -1 
AF 52-FB 
AF 3/2 
*AF2 -1 
AF2 1-FB 
UX 147-FB 
UX 140-FB 
AF 52-FB 
AF 53-FB 
AF 52-FB 
W/C 
AF SPECIAL 

HUDSON, HEATHER 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Page 3) 
AF 2/2 
AF 3/2 
*AF 2 -1 -FB (Page 5 panel 1) 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Page 5 Panels 2-5) 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Pages 6-7) 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Page 8 Panels 4-7) 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Page 9 Panels 1-3) 
AF 34-FB 
AF 33-FB 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Page 9 Panels 4-5) 
*AF 33-FB 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Page 11) 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Pages 12-21) 
*AF2 -1 
W2 -1 
*AF 3/2 
UX 147-FB 
UX 140-FB 
AF 52-FB 
AF 8/2 

WOLVERINE 
 
W2 166-FB 
M/CP 84 (20 - 24) 
*AF 33-FB 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Page 9 Panels 4-5) 
*AF 33-FB 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Page 11) 
UX 140-FB <- Remove 
W2 34-FB 
*AF 3/2 
*AF2 -1-FB (Pages 12-21) 
*AF2 -1 
W2 -1 
FURY 1-FB 
* UX 140-FB 
AF 52-FB 
W/C 
W:BR-FB 
W/NF-FB 
BFF:BGL 1 
BFF:BGL 2 
BFF:BGL 3 
L:SS 
X:TF 2 
X:TF 3 
AF SPECIAL 

PUCK/EUGENE MILTON JUDD 
AF 32-FB 
AF 123/2-FB 
AF2 16-FB 
AF2 14-FB 
*AF2 -1-FB (Pages 12-21) 
{AF 1} 
AF2 15-FB 
AF 2 

FLEX/ADRIAN CORBO 
AF2 5-FB 
{AF2 1} 
AF2 2 

RADIUS/JARED CORBO 
AF2 1 
AF2 2 


CLARKE, GENERAL JEREMY 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Page 8) 
*AF 2 -1 FB (Pages 12-21) 
AF 92-FB 
{AF 91} 
AF 92 
AF 97 
AF 101 
XFOR 10 
AF 117 
AF 118 
C 1 
XFOR 19 
AF 130 
AF2 19-FB 
AF2 1 
AF2 2 
AF2 3 
AF2 4 
AF2 6 
AF2 7 
AF2 8 
AF2 9 
AF2 10 
AF2 11 
AF2 12 

**CHINOOK 
AF2 -1-FB (Pages 12-21)

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Jan 2007 12:32 am    
By Col_Fury

For Wolverine's chronology, W2 34-FB should occur a little earlier to before the Hudons find him. In W2 34-FB, Wolverine's wandering the Canadian wilderness naked and gets caught in a bear trap. I don't see him doing this after he's found by the Hudsons. 

Also, Logan has had a few arguments with James Hudson. UX 140-FB shows him arguing with the Hudsons at their house, UX 147-FB shows him arguing with Hudson at Department H, and AF 52-FB is where Weapon X officially changes his name to Wolverine. I would keep these together as you have, even though I suggested something slightly different here, which was before I knew about these Alpha Flight FlashBacks. 

Also, I'll add some page/panel ranges for Alpha Flight 33-FB. 

Wolverine/Logan/James Howlett 
... 
M/CP 84 (20 - 24) 
W2 34-FB pg5pn3, pg18pn4-pg18pn5, pg5pn4-pg5pn5 
AF 33-FB pg14pn1-pg14pn2 
AF 2 -1-FB pg9pn4-pg9pn5 
AF 33-FB pg14pn3-pg19pn4 
AF 2 -1-FB pg11 
AF 3/2 
AF2 -1-FB pg12-pg21 
AF2 -1 
W2 -1 
FURY 1-FB 
UX 140-FB 
UX 147-FB 
AF 52-FB 
... 

Hows that?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 50

Posted: 27 Jan 2007 04:55 am    Post subject: Calendar; Punisher: X-Mas Special #1
By Col_Fury

Punisher: X-Mas Special #1 
W: Stuart Moore 
D: C.P. Smith 
Published: January, 2007 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Franks family in FlashBack, some people who are killed and will never be seen again. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4pn1: December 25 
The Punisher is making a naughty/nice list for the holidays, and plans on who to kill next. He settles on James Novinski aka Jimmy Nouveau. 
Pg4pn2-FB 
Frank remembers his wife and children at Christmas. 
Pg4pn3(of 4)-pg27: December 25 
The Punisher goes to a bar to ask a police officer, Robert Red Sanchez, some questions regarding a kid that was killed by Jimmy Nouveau, stops him from killing himself, and puts him on the nice list. He then goes to Wendy Jays house, the kids mom, asks her some questions, and she points him to a strip club that Jimmy Noveau likes to hang out at. He puts her on the nice list. The Punisher makes his way to the club, gets Jimmys records, kills him, and scratches him off the naughty list. He then goes back to the bar and tells Officer Sanchez that Jimmys dead, then goes back to his place to look through Jimmys records and discovers that Wendy Jay is Jimmys girlfriend. 
Pg28-pg34: December 26 
The Punisher confronts Wendy Jay at the bus station. After a quick chat she jumps in front of a bus, but she isnt killed. The Punisher takes care of that with a bullet in her face. 

References: 
Its stated quite a few times that its Christmas, so of course theres snow all over the place. 

Im assuming a break between pgs 27 & 28. There should be some time between Jimmy getting killed and Wendy hearing about it. Also, its night time when Jimmy dies and its day time at the bus station. 

The FlashBack only shows Franks wife, son, and daughter. Hes not shown, but its apparent that its his memory, which means that it would be him looking at them in front of the Christmas tree. If hes listed for this, I guess it would be a BTS for him. As for where it fits, I have no idea
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 51

Posted: 01 Jan 2007 10:51 am    Post subject: January call for analysis
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Happy New Year, everyone! 

A new year means a new month, and so here's my updated call for analyses. 

Completed stories (as of 1/1/07) 
Books of Doom #1-6 (Eric) 
Daughters of the Dragon #1-6 
Franklin Richards: Son of a Genius Super Summer Spectacular 
Incredible Hulk v3 #96-99 (Kevin) 
Moon Knight v? #1-6 (Joe) 
Nick Furys Howling Commandos #1-6 (Russ) 
Punisher v7 #37-42 (Col_Fury) 
Punisher: X-Mas Special (Col_Fury) 
Reading to the Rescue #4 
Runaways v2 #19-21 (JD) 
Sentinel v2 #1-5 (JD) 
Thor: Son of Asgard #7-12 (John) 
Underworld #1-5 (Aaron) 

Future stuff 
Agents of Atlas #1-6 (Eric) 
Annihilation #1-6 (JLH) 
Annihilation: Heralds of Galactus #1-2 (JLH) 
Blade v3 #5 (JLH) 
Blade v3 #6 (JLH) 
Blade v3 #7 
Daredevil v2 #89-93 (Kevin) 
Daredevil v2 #94 (Kevin) 
Daredevil v2 #95-99 (Kevin) 
Doctor Strange: The Oath #1-5 (Frederic) 
Eternals v3 #1-7 (Eric) 
Franklin Richards: March Madness! 
Ghost Rider v4 #6-7 (JLH) 
Ghost Rider v4 #8-12 (JLH) 
Ghost Rider Finale (JLH) 
Ghost Rider: Trail of Tears #1-6 (JLH) 
Hellstorm: Son of Satan #1-5 (Frederic) 
Immortal Iron Fist #1-? 
Incredible Hulk v3 #100-103 (Kevin) 
Incredible Hulk v3 #104-105 (Kevin) 
Irredeemable Ant-Man #1-? 
Legion of Monsters: Man-Thing #1 
Legion of Monsters: Werewolf By Night #1 
Marvel Westerns: Strange Westerns Featuring the Black Rider (Eric) 
Moon Knight v? #7-9 
Nextwave: Agents of H.A.T.E. #1-12 (Chris) 
Punisher v7 #43-49 
Punisher Presents: Barracuda 
Punisher War Journal v2 #5 
Runaways v2 #22-24 (JD) 
Runaways Saga 
Spider-Man Family #1 
Thunderbolts Presents: Zemo  Born Better #1-4 (Sean K.) 
White Tiger #1-6 (Kevin) 
Wisdom #1-6 (Paul O.) 
Wolverine v3 #50-55 
Wolverine: Origins #6-10 (Col_Fury) 
Wolverine: Origins #11-? 
X-23: Target X #1-6 (Paul O.) 

Any help that people can provide would be greatly appreciated. As always, thanks to all who post on this forum!
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 19 Jan 2007 08:33 pm; edited 3 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jan 2007 11:17 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Daredevil v2 #95-99  
<<<

I'll take care of this one. 


Quote: 
>>>
Wolverine v3 #150-?  
<<<

This one is "Pt. 1 of 6" I believe, so you're looking at #50 to 55...I'm not signing up for this, just pointing it out.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Jan 2007 07:18 pm    
By JLH

You can keep signing me up for Blade until the Hellcows come home.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Jan 2007 09:23 am    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Eternals v2 #1-7 (Eric) 
Wolverine v3 #150-155 
<<<

Just a couple of corrections - it's Eternals v3 (v1 was Kirby, v2 was a mid-1980s maxiseries); and Wv3 #50-55, not #150-155.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Jan 2007 05:02 am    
By Col_Fury

You can keep me signed up for Wolverine: Origins for however long the series lasts.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2007 02:04 am    
By Col_Fury

You can go ahead and put me down for Punisher v7 #43-49 & Punisher Presents: Barracuda. 

Hell, put me down for Wolverine 50-55 too. I'll be covering the FlashBacks seen in issue 50 in my upcoming analysis of Wolverine: Origins 5-10, so I might as well cover the rest of the issues.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 52

Posted: 28 Jan 2007 01:55 am    Post subject: Calendar; Punisher MAX 37-42
By Col_Fury

the Punisher #37 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Leandro Fernandez 
Published: November 2006 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), General Nikolai Alexandrovich Zakharov, Captain Viktor Dolnovich, Rawlins, Kathryn OBrien 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2 
Rawlins meets Zakharov. 
Pg3-pg8 
John James Toomeys gang has captured the Punisher. While Toomey beats him up he reveals that a Russian has a bounty on the Punisher, which is news to him. He breaks free and kills everyone. 
Pg9-pg13 
Rawlins informs Zakharov that the Punisher was responsible for stealing Russian biological weapons(the infected girl) from him. He also gives them a plan to get their hands on the Punisher: keep track of six ex-Taliban members, his ex-wife OBrien plans to kill them because they tortured her. 
Pg14-pg17 
OBrien kills one of the men who tortured her. She has already killed three, and will soon kill the other two. 
Pg18-pg19: 3 days after pg8 
Punisher tracks down the Russian who put a bounty on him. Alex Rastovich did it because the Punisher killed his cousin Leon. Alex tells him that someone else has cancelled the contract because they have their own plans for the Punisher, and they have plans for OBrien. 
Pg20-pg22 
OBrien is following one of her targets, but shes apprehended. 

References: 
The Punisher has been following Toomeys group for about a week before the start of this issue, so no appearances for him in that time frame. 

The Mother Russia arc(issues 13-18) is referred to as being two years back. Not exactly two years ago, but roughly two years ago. Two years is a long time, and Im not exactly sure how things are lining up on the Calendar with Civil War and all, but it seems like theres a large gap between issue 36 & 37 for War Journal to go, along with whatever else there is. 

On pg18-pg19, its revealed that yesterday the contract had been cancelled. That would mean the first couple of pages are happening concurrently, more or less. 

Jacket weather in New York. 

PUN 37 pg1-pg13: Day 1 
PUN 37 pg14-pg17: Day 3 
PUN 37 pg18-pg19: Day 4 
PUN 37 pg20-pg22: Day 5 

the Punisher #38 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Leandro Fernandez 
Published: December 2006 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), General Nikolai Alexandrovich Zakharov, Captain Viktor Dolnovich, Rawlins, Kathryn OBrien, Yorkie 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: same day as end of last issue 
After making some phone calls, the Punisher calls up Yorkie, whos about to shoot OBrien through the head. 
Pg3-pg18-FB: earlier that day 
Yorkies men have OBrien, but theyre attacked by Captain Dolnovich who has Rawlins with him. Yorkies men get away with OBrien, and Dolnovich & Rawlins report back to Zakharov. Meanwhile, Yorkies men report back and he receives orders to terminate OBrien. Meanwhile, Rawlins comes up with a plan to lure the Punisher to Afghanistan. Later, Yorkie prepares to kill OBrien when he gets a phone call. 
Pg19-pg22: same day as pg2 
Yorkies upset with what the Punisher has to say, then tells OBrien that hell let her go after they get closer to his camp. Later, the Punisher sees Zakharov on the television and decides to head over the Afghanistan. 

References: 
PUN 38 pg3-pg18-FB: Day 5 
PUN 38 pg1-pg2: Day 5 
PUN 38 pg19-pg22: Day 5 

the Punisher #39 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Leandro Fernandez 
Published: December 2006 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), General Nikolai Alexandrovich Zakharov, Captain Viktor Dolnovich, Rawlins, Kathryn OBrien, Yorkie 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2 
After setting up camp for the night, the Punisher & OBrien GET IT ON. 
Pg3-FB 
The Punisher is on a plane heading for Afghanistan. 
Pg4-pg6-FB-FB: same day as end of last issue 
Yorkie & OBrien chat about the Punisher while they head back to camp. Yorkie gives OBrien his jeep, then prepares to bash himself in the head to make it look like she overpowered him. 
Pg7-pg10-FB 
Zakharov inspects his arsenal that hes put together for the Punisher, then Rawlins hits him up for a job. 
Pg11pn1-pg11pn2-FB 
The Punisher talks to a reporter on the plane about Zakharovs history. 
Pg11pn3-pg11pn4(of 4)-FB-FB: the 1980s 
Zakharov prepares to attack a village in Mujahedeen. 
Pg12pn1-FB 
The reporter continues his story. 
Pg12pn2(of 4)-pg13pn1-FB-FB: the 1980s 
Zakharov kills a bunch of women and children. 
Pg13pn2-FB 
The reporter continues his story. 
Pg13pn3(of 5)-pg15pn3-FB-FB: the 1980s 
Zakharov kills a baby! 
Pg15pn4-FB 
The reporter continues his story. 
Pg15pn5(of 5)-pg16pn3-FB-FB: the 1980s 
Zakharov kills the men in the town who have come out of hiding, then goes on to do the same thing in six other villages. 
Pg16pn4(of 4)-FB 
The reporter finishes his story. 
Pg17-FB 
Zakharov turns down Rawlins. 
Pg18-FB 
The Punisher gets off the plane and meets OBrien. 
Pg19-FB-FB: same day as pg6 
Yorkie returns to camp with a bandage on his head. 
Pg20-pg22-FB: leading up to pg1 
OBrien & the Punisher get some gear and head off. 

References: 
Pg1-pg2 is referred to as the day after last issue, so 

PUN 39 pg11pn3-pg11pn4-FB-FB: the 1980s 
PUN 39 pg12pn2-pg13pn1-FB-FB: the 1980s 
PUN 39 pg13pn3-pg15pn3-FB-FB: the 1980s 
PUN 39 pg15pn5-pg16pn3-FB-FB: the 1980s 
PUN 39 pg4-pg6-FB-FB: Day 5 
PUN 39 pg19-FB-FB: Day 5 
PUN 39 pg3-FB: Day 6 
PUN 39 pg7-pg10-FB: Day 6 
PUN 39 pg11pn1-pg11pn2-FB, pg12pn1-FB, pg13pn2-FB, pg15pn4-FB: Day 6 
PUN 39 pg16pn4-pg18-FB: Day 6 
PUN 39 pg20-pg22-FB: Day 6 
PUN 39 pg1-pg2: Day 6 

the Punisher #40 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Leandro Fernandez 
Published: January 2007 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), General Nikolai Alexandrovich Zakharov, Captain Viktor Dolnovich, Rawlins, Kathryn OBrien, 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5pn1 
Zakharov kills the reporter the Punisher was talking to. Meanwhile, the Punisher & OBrien set up for a confrontation with Zakharov. 
Pg5pn2-FB: ten years ago 
The recently married Rawlins & OBrien are in a helicopter above Afghanistan, which is taking fire. 
Pg5pn3: same day as pg5pn1 
OBrien tells a story. 
Pg5pn4(of 4)-pg6pn3(of 5)-FB: ten years ago 
Rawlins kicks OBrien out of the helicopter, and shes abducted by the locals. 
Pg6pn4-pg21: same day as pg5pn3 
OBrien finishes her story, and later Zakharov attacks. The Punisher & OBrien kill most of Zakharovs crew, and he demands to meet the Punisher alone tomorrow at sundown. The Punisher agrees, because Zakharov has a nuclear warhead attached to the bottom of his helicopter. 
Pg22: the day after pg21 
The Punisher meets Zakharovs helicopter at sundown. 

References: 
PUN 40 pg5pn2-FB, pg5pn4-pg6pn3-FB: ten years ago 
PUN 40 pg1-pg5pn1, pg5pn3, pg6pn4-pg21: Day 7 
PUN 40 pg22: Day 8 

the Punisher #41 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Leandro Fernandez 
Published: January 2007 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), General Nikolai Alexandrovich Zakharov, Captain Viktor Dolnovich, Rawlins, Kathryn OBrien, 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: same day as end of last issue 
Zakharovs helicopter picks up the Punisher. As it takes off, OBrien comes out of hiding and jumps on the landing gear. Once inside, the Punisher breaks free with a hidden razor blade and attacks. OBrien sabotages the clamps holding the warhead, and jumps free. Rawlins pushes Zakharov out with himself after the Punisher jumped, and the helicopter crashes which detonated the nuclear device. Zakharov has broken his neck, and Rawlins kills Dolnovich. The Punisher & OBrien start to make their way to the crash site to find the others when she steps on a land mine, blowing her legs off. She asks for two things: Kill Rawlins and stay with her until shes gone. 

References: 
Full moon over Afghanistan. 

All in one day, same day as end of last issue, day 8. 

the Punisher #42 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Leandro Fernandez 
Published: February 2007 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), General Nikolai Alexandrovich Zakharov, Captain Viktor Dolnovich, Rawlins, Yorkie 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: day after last issue 
As Rawlins gets away, the Punisher finds and kills Zakharov with a rock. 
Pg6-pg8: night after pg5 
The Punisher makes his way across the desert. 
Pg9-pg16pn1: four days after pg5 
The Punisher comes across some soldiers and is brought to Yorkies camp, who gives him information on the last two people on OBriens list. After a chat, the Punisher leaves and kills the first of the two on the list. 
Pg16pn2(of 4)-pg22: the day after pg16pn1 
The Punisher kills the last person on OBriens list. Later that day, the Punisher tracks Rawlins to the airport and kills him. 

References: 
PUN 42 pg1-pg5: Day 9 
PUN 42 pg6-pg8: Day 10 
PUN 42 pg9-pg16pn1: Day 13 
PUN 42 pg16pn2-pg22: Day 14 

And, putting it all together: 

PUN 39 pg11pn3-pg11pn4-FB-FB: the 1980s 
PUN 39 pg12pn2-pg13pn1-FB-FB: the 1980s 
PUN 39 pg13pn3-pg15pn3-FB-FB: the 1980s 
PUN 39 pg15pn5-pg16pn3-FB-FB: the 1980s 
* 
PUN 40 pg5pn2-FB, pg5pn4-pg6pn3-FB: ten years ago 
* 
(no appearances for Punisher for one week prior to this) 
* 
PUN 37 pg1-pg13: Day 1 
* 
PUN 37 pg14-pg17: Day 3 
* 
PUN 37 pg18-pg19: Day 4 
* 
PUN 37 pg20-pg22: Day 5 
PUN 38 pg3-pg18-FB: Day 5 
PUN 38 pg1-pg2: Day 5 
PUN 38 pg19-pg22: Day 5 
PUN 39 pg4-pg6-FB-FB: Day 5 
PUN 39 pg19-FB-FB: Day 5 
* 
PUN 39 pg3-FB: Day 6 
PUN 39 pg7-pg10-FB: Day 6 
PUN 39 pg11pn1-pg11pn2-FB, pg12pn1-FB, pg13pn2-FB, pg15pn4-FB: Day 6 
PUN 39 pg16pn4-pg18-FB: Day 6 
PUN 39 pg20-pg22-FB: Day 6 
PUN 39 pg1-pg2: Day 6 
* 
PUN 40 pg1-pg5pn1, pg5pn3, pg6pn4-pg21: Day 7 
PUN 40 pg22: Day 8 
PUN 41 pg1-pg22: Day 8 
* 
PUN 42 pg1-pg5: Day 9 
* 
PUN 42 pg6-pg8: Day 10 
* 
PUN 42 pg9-pg16pn1: Day 13 
* 
PUN 42 pg16pn2-pg22: Day 14 

The next arc is apparently about a child pornography ring, and the Punisher mentions in issue 43 something about all the stuff he didnt do last year. Im not sure what that means yet, but there may possibly be another time-jump. Or, if these issues(37-42) are placed in the fall of whatever year it falls into, then maybe it just means late last year, and this next arc follows closely after this one. Food for thought
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2007 01:11 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I was under the impression that Garth Ennis' time-references all lined up to the real world, not the Marvel Universe. (Meaning, the arc "two years ago" was actually published two years ago.) For calendar purposes, it might be best to ignore those references ... otherwise you'll wind up with a *lot* of time-jumps. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2007 06:02 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph is correct. As with many long-term temporal references, that two-year span doesn't really work. Thanks, Col_Fury, for the analysis.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 53

Posted: 29 Jan 2007 10:20 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for Hulk vol. 3 #96-99
By Kevin W.
Director

Incredible Hulk #96-99 
Planet Hulk: Anarchy 
Written by Greg Pak 
Artwork by Aaron Lopresti 

This is another pretty straightforward tale, with minimal continuity references. The only thing thats tricky is the passage of time. This is an alien world, so who knows how long the days are on this planet? We have several scenes dealing with armies marching across the land, which should take days, so I tried to take into account how much time has passed, (I dont think some of these events all occurred on the same day). 

Incredible Hulk #96 
Planet Hulk: Anarchy pt. 1 
Written by Greg Pak 
Pencils by Aaron Lopresti 
Inks by Danny Miki 

Appearances: 

Hulk, (Bruce Banner) 
Miek 
Caiera the Oldstrong 
Arch-E-5912 
Korg 
Elloe Kaifi 
Hiroim the Shamed 
No-Name, (Brood Creature #2 of 6) 
Governor Denebo Arue III 

New Character: Headman Charr, (no first name givenor is it no last name given? I dont believe we have enough for a listing in the MCP). 

In flashback, we see: 

Miek 
Mieks father, (no name given) 
Headman Charr/Lt. Charr 

Synopsis: Continues right where we left off after the end of Giant Size Hulk vol. 2 #1. 

Pgs. 1-4: Nighttime. Its perhaps the same night as shown in Giant Size Hulk vol. 2 #1, but more likely the next night, or a few nights later. 

At the Hulks camp, some of the escaped slaves, (along with Miek and Arch-E-5912) are sharing stories about the Hulk. One of the slaves badmouths the Hulk and the Hulk stops by to scare the slave off, (he runs away from the camp). Lt. Caiera and Governor Denebo are meanwhile leading the army in charge of tracking down the Hulks rebel forces. They make contact with the slave who ran away from camp, (it turns out hes a spy for the Red King). Caiera and Denebo launch missiles at the camp, but the camp was secretly moved, (thanks to a trap set by the Hulk) and the only one who gets hit with the missiles is the spy. 

Pgs. 5-18p3: The Next Day: Governor Denebo tries to draw the Hulks forces out of hiding by executing a local village, (much to Lt. Caieras distaste). Hulk and his companions see its a trap and since all of the villagers have been executed before they could do anything, they leave. 

Cut to a short time later. At another nearby village, the village is under attack by the feral Wildebots, when the Hulks forces charge in and destroy the Wildebots. Headman Charr, the village leader, offers them temporary sanctuary. They have lunch with the village, when Miek uses his hive powers to chem bond with Hulk and the others, showing them a flashback to his youth. Miek reveals that this village was founded on the ruins of his hive, which Headman Charr, (back then he was Lt. Charr) obliterated. Miek calls for revenge, and Charr agrees to a duel in twelve hours (tomorrow morning). 

That night, Charr offers to help train the slaves to fight, and Korg and Hiroim ask Miek to hold off on claiming revenge, as they could use all the help they can get. Hulk tells Miek its up to him to do what he pleases. 

Pg. 18p4-22: The Next Morning: The duel commences. Headman Charr pins Miek to the ground and Miek cuts off his own arm to escape (dont worry, hes got 3 more) and he counters and pins Charr. Miek hesitates to kill him, because he knows Charr could be useful. He lets out an anguished cry, which is responded to by a distant cry coming from underground. The Hulk opens up the ground of the village to find Mieks lost brothers and sisters, (not all of Mieks hive were executed), being kept as slaves in an underground mine. 

In anger, Hulk and his companions tear down the village and free the slaves. The issue ends with Lt. Caiera, Gov. Denebo and the army entering the village to find it in ruins, and Headman Charr contemplating his sins. 

References: Im not sure what qualifies as a first name or a last name in the culture of the Imperials on this world. Throughout the story, he is referred to as Governor Denebo, but the Planet Hulk: Gladiator Guidebook gives his full name as Denebo Arue III, so thats how I have it listed in the appearances section above. 

13p2-15: FB-There is a flashback on these pages to Mieks childhood. Ill break it down as follows: 

13p2-13p4: FB Miek remembers hatching from an egg in the hive. 

13p5-15p2: FB-One day, Miek is out in the field with his father, (the King of the Hive) when they are suddenly confronted by the Imperial forces, led by Lt. Charr. The King of the Hive hails the Emporer at first, (he says they all fought in the Spike Wars together) but Lt. Charr says he has orders to remove the Hive from this land. The Hive fights back, and the Imperials kill all of them, (except for Miek, who escapes into the forest). 

15p3: FB-A panel showing young Miek hiding in the forest. 

15p4: FB-A panel showing young Miek in a cage, being poked at with a stick by a young Imperial. He was apparently capatured. 

15p5-FB-A panel showing Miek in chains, being led around with other slaves by the Imperials. 

15p5-FB-A panel showing Miek eventually escaped from slavery, and is now hiding in the back alleys of the city. 

Then, the flashback ends, bringing us back to the present day. 

Incredible Hulk #97 
Planet Hulk: Anarchy pt. 2 
Written by Greg Pak 
Pencils by Aaron Lopresti 

Appearances: 

Hulk, (Bruce Banner) 
Miek 
Caiera the Oldstrong 
Arch-E-5912 
Korg 
Elloe Kaifi 
Hiroim the Shamed 
No-Name, (Brood Creature #2 of 6) 
Governor Denebo Arue III 
The Red King 
Primus Vand 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-7: This is the next day after the end of last issue, or perhaps a few days later. Rebellion has started up in the capital city, (stories of the Hulk has inspired many to revolt). The Red King and his army are going through the streets killing any insurgents. 

Meanwhile, out in the wilderness, Lt. Caiera and Gov. Denebo, (and now with the help of Headman Charr) are still hunting the Hulks group. Caiera gets a call on her communicator to return back to the capital and aid the Emperor. 

The Hulk and company, meanwhile, arrive at the Maw, (the gladiator training grounds) and free more slaves, and take prisoner Primus Vand, (the gladiator trainer who enslaved the Hulk in the last story arc). 

Pgs. 8-20: This is probably the next day, (the first panel on pg. 8 shows the good guys have been traveling a good distance, and Lt. Caiera has made it back to the capital). The Hulk and company are about to enter the Steppes (a no mans land where the Red Kings army wont follow) but they see in the distance Gov. Denebo executing a bunch of Natives, (its another trap). Hulk and his followers charge into battle, and Gov. Denebo lets off explosives which almost bury the good guys under a mountain of rock, but the Hulk holds back the falling rocks while the others do battle. Miek kills Headman Charr, and Gov. Denebos army is defeated. Miek, Elloe Kaifi, and No-Name seek to kill every last soldier in the Governors army, but Hulk forbids killing foes that have surrendered. 

Meanwhile, back in the capital, Caiera is helping to put down the insurgents. The Red King starts executing anyone in the streets indiscriminately, and Caiera asks him to yield. Just then, Gov. Denebo returns to the capital, his clothing in ruins. When the Red King sees Denebo failed, he executes him. 

Back at the border to the Steppes, the Hulk and company have hunkered down for the night. Korg reports that someone has executed Primus Vand and all of the other prisoners, (he suspects Elloe and some of the other freed slaves did it). Miek comments they deserved it, but Hiroim warns they dont want to become monsters like the Red King. Hulk ponders that he already is a monsterMiek goes off to sit with his fellow Natives in private, and he begins to undergo a transformation. 

Pg. 21-22: The next morning. Hulk decides he doesnt want to lead the rebellion anymore, (because hes afraid hell eventually destroy everyone in a fit of rage). Hes about to go off into the wasteland of the Steppes alone, when he is confronted by Miek, who has transformed overnight into a Hive King, (a bigger, stronger version of the Natives). 

References: None really, but Ill make a note that Arch-E-5912 appears in the background of this issue, but isnt seen in the next two issues, (though hes still with the Hulks rebel forcesI dont believe that qualifies him for a BTS appearance though, since hes not referenced in anyway). 

Incredible Hulk #98 
Planet Hulk: Anarchy pt. 3 
Written by Greg Pak 
Pencils by Aaron Lopresti 

Appearances: 
Hulk, (Bruce Banner) 
Miek 
Caiera the Oldstrong 
Korg 
Elloe Kaifi 
Hiroim the Shamed 
No-Name, (Brood Creature #2 of 6) 
The Red King 

In Flashback, we see: 

Caiera the Oldstrong 
The Red King 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-6: Continues right from where we left off last issue. Miek and his fellow Natives confront the Hulk, demanding that he stay and fight the Red King. Hulk refuses at first, and him and Miek fight. Korg breaks it up, and Hulk is finally convinced to stay with the army. The rebel forces split up: Those who are unable to fight are led by Horoim and Korg into the Steppes to seek refuge. The Hulk, along with Meik, No-Name, and Elloe lead the rest back to fight the Red Kings army. 

Pgs. 7-22: The Next Day, (or possibly a few days later): Hulks army run into Caieras Imperial army. Hulk and Caiera meet between the two armies to negotiate. Caiera says she wants Hulk dead to stop the insurgency, (because shes trying to spare as many lives from the Red Kings wrath as possiblein other words, she wants the status quo to return to the way it was before the Hulk arrived). Caiera challenges Hulk to a dual. They fight, (Caiera has the Old Power a genetic trait for superstrength found in some of her race) and the battle seems to be a standstill, with neither one winning. 

The Emperor is listening in on the battle from back in the Capital, and when he sees Caiera cant win, he orders a doomsday missile be launched. This missile crashes where Caiera and the Hulk are doing battle, and it releases an alien race of spores called the Spikes. The Spikes attack and infect the Imperial soldiers and turn them into Spike Zombies (for lack of a better word). The Hulk and Caiera are now surrounded by Spikes 

References: 

Pgs. 9-11: FB-There is a flashback on these pages to Caieras youth. As she and the Hulk talk, she narrates how she became the Emperors Shadow, (the Emperors right-hand soldier): 

Caiera narrates, I was thirteen when he came for me. He, being the Emperor. Thats the only time reference we have. The Emperor is a teenager here in this flashback as well, (this mustve been when his father ruled). 

9p1: FB-A panel showing a young Caiera training to use a blade. She is with her race, (the Shadow People). 

9p2: FB-A panel showing a young Caiera punching a stone column in front of her trainers. 

9p3-11: FB-From here on, we have the story of how the Spikes, (back during the Spike Wars) attacked her village, killing everyone but her. The Emperor and his forces were nearby watching the battle, not joining in to defeat the Spikes because the Emperor wanted to see which of the Shadow People had the Old Power. Upon seeing Caiera fight, he has his forces burn the Spikes and the village to the ground, and slaps an obedience disk on Caiera. The disk was eventually removed as Caiera came to serve the Emperor voluntarily, (in a truce pact between her people, the Shadow People and the Emperors race, the Imperials). 

Incredible Hulk #99 
Planet Hulk: Anarchy pt. 4 
Written by Greg Pak 
Pencils by Aaron Lopresti 

Appearances: 
Hulk, (Bruce Banner) 
Miek 
Caiera the Oldstrong 
Korg 
Elloe Kaifi 
Hiroim the Shamed 
No-Name, (Brood Creature #2 of 6) 
The Red King 

New Character: 
The Hive Queen, (no other name is given, Miek just calls her Queen). Since I doubt thats her true name, I dont think she should get a listing 

Synopsis: This issue immediately follows the end of last issue. All events in this issue occur on the same day. 

The Spikes start to attack the Hulk and Caiera. Hulk tosses Caiera far away so that she doesnt have to fight the Spikes, (Hulk says theyll resume their fight later). Hulk fights the Spikes, and becomes infected, but he is able to pull the Spike spores out of his skin, (his gamma powers must prevent him from being absorbed and turned into a Spike Zombie, like all others who encounter the Spikes). 

Hulk regroups with Miek, Elloe, No-Name, and the others. Caiera meanwhile has landed at a nearby Imperial village, and is warning them that the Spikes are heading their way. Hulk and the others make their way to the village as well, and they team up with Caiera and the villagers trying to fight the Spikes. Meanwhile, Hiroim and Korg see the battle off in the distance from where they are hiding in the Steppes. They hijack an Imperial vessel and fly out to join the battle. 

Miek and his fellow Natives sense another imprisoned member of their race in this village, and they open up a prison door to find a Native Queen (or a Hive Queen) being held prisoner there, (the Imperials were feasting on her eggs). Miek frees the Queen and in a rage starts to attack the villagers. One of the Spikes makes it over the village wall and attacks the Queen when Miek wasnt looking. This snaps Miek out of it, and he and the Hulk kill the Spike, (and they think theyve kept the Queen from being infected) 

The Red King is witnessing all of this through a communication device, and becomes mad at Caiera for not attacking the Hulk and for trying to save the villagers. Caiera tells the Emperor over the communicator that she will kill the Hulk after she evacuates all of the villagers. The Red King reveals to Caiera that he was the one who released the Spikes, (the Spikes were all rounded up and imprisoned at the end of the Spike War years ago) and that he believes Caiera is a failure. He orders the army to drop a deathfire bomb on the village, which incinerates the last few Imperials that hadnt yet evacuated. Caiera survives the blast, and finally sees the Red King for the monster he is, so she swears loyalty to the Hulk. The Hulk and company use the vessel Korg hijacked to flee the village. A nearby pleasure barge floats by overhead, it has been broadcasting the battle live on Imperial TV, and the Hulk makes an announcement that hes coming for the Red King, to kill him. The Red King responds, Bring it on. 

The End. 

References: None, really. 

Heres the additions for the MCP, (if anyone sees Ive done this wrong, please point it out to me): 

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
H3 95 
GSH2  
*H3 96 
*H3 97 
*H3 98 
*H3 99 

MIEK 
*H3 96-FB 
H3 92 
H3 93 
H3 94 
H3 95 
GSH2  
*H3 96 
*H3 97 
*H3 98 
*H3 99 

RED KING/ANGMO II 
*H3 98-FB 
H3 92 
H3 93 
H3 95 
*H3 97 
*H3 98 
*H3 99 

CAIERA THE OLDSTRONG 
*H3 98-FB 
H3 92 
H3 93 
H3 94 
H3 95 
*H3 96 
*H3 97 
*H3 98 
*H3 99 

DENEBO ARUE III 
H3 92 
*H3 96 
*H3 97 

PRIMUS VAND 
H3 92 
H3 93 
H3 94 
H3 95 
*H3 97 

KORG 
H3 95 
*H3 96 
*H3 97 
*H3 98 
*H3 99 

ELLOE KAIFI 
H3 95 
*H3 96 
*H3 97 
*H3 98 
*H3 99 

HIROIM THE SHAMED 
H3 95 
*H3 96 
*H3 97 
*H3 98 
*H3 99 

NO-NAME/BROOD #2 OF 6 
H3 95 
*H3 96 
*H3 97 
*H3 98 
*H3 99 

ARCH-E-5912 
H3 93 
*H3 96 
*H3 97 

Thats it for now. Im going ahead and working on the analysis for Hulk #100-103, (Im just waiting on Issue #103 to come out in the next couple of weeks). So Ill have that up shortly. Im also working on the Spider-man/X-factor: Shadowgames mini-series for Russ, and itll be up soon
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Thread 54
By wolframbane

I dunno if its ever been established, but has the name of the ship ever revelaed, that the FF flew in when they were exposed to cosmic rays and got their powers?

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Jan 2007 10:28 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

The ship has only been ever referred to as a/the "Pocket Rocket." The ship has never been drawn with an actual named slapped on the side of it, so it's unclear if "Pocket Rocket" originally refered to the specific ship or the more general class/design. Given that, in recent years, drawings of the craft have been modified into more of a space shuttle design, "Pocket Rocket" should probably refer to the generic design of the engines and not the overall craft. 

In FF vol. 2, Reed was developing a ship called the Excelsior. However it was just the prototype of that ship that the FF took into space and that craft was not actually named. 

In the Ultimate Universe, there was no ship involved in their gaining powers, but Johnny dubbed Reed's first spacecraft The Awesome. 

More info than you asked for, but I wanted to cover the "Yeah, but what about..." questions before they were asked.

			*	*	*

Thread 55

Posted: 13 Jan 2007 05:58 pm    Post subject: Question about Beyond #6
By wolframbane

I am trying to figure out the 'early' history of the Marvel Universe. In Beyond #6, Uatu states 'for longer than this galaxy's existence, I and others of my race have been witness to the myriad wonders of the universe'. This would seem to indicate that the Watchers are older than the galaxy. I have missed the first few issues thus far, and I was wondering if anyone could confirm if the galaxy in question is the Milky Way or were the heroes sent to some other galaxy? 

My thought is that if it is the Milky Way, which was formed approximately 13.6 billion years ago (as opposed to the creation of the universe about 13.7 billion years ago), then that would mean chronologically the Watchers first appeared sometime during the first 100 million years of the universe. This would mean that the vanished race of The World, where the M'Krann Crystal stands and reputed to be the first intelligentlife in the universe, also appeared during this time. This would also include the Acanti and the Origin, both reputed to have existed shortly after the first intelligent life appeared, as well as the Prosilicans, who were wiped out before the Watchers became the Watchers. The OHOTMU states the Watchers are the oldest existing race, so that would make all the other races that currently exist younger.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jan 2007 07:15 pm    
By Somebody

The world was Battleworld (Secret-Wars-World) rebuilt in situ by the Stranger. I don't recall a note whatever way in Beyond!, but if there's a note in Secret Wars, Thing v1 or one of the Handbooks on Battleworld's location, that should give a clue.

			*	*	*

Thread 56

Posted: 11 Jan 2007 10:39 am    Post subject: Question for DHall
By Jason Doty

DHall, my computer just died on me and one of my favorite resourses was your X-Men read list. I tried to find it in the archives, but did not know how long ago you posted it. Any chance you can repost it. It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Doty

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jan 2007 10:15 pm   
By Dhall

Hi Jason, 
I haven't updated in a while, but I can post what I have. 

X-Men Reading List 

RISE OF APOCALYPSE 1-2 
RISE OF APOCALYPSE 3 
FANTASTIC FOUR 19 (TIME TRAVEL) (TAKES PLACE DURING RISE OF APOCALYPSE 3 AND 4) 
RISE OF APOCALYPSE 4 
1602 1-8 
ORIGIN 1-6 
LOGAN: PATH OF THE WARLORD 
MAGNETO #0 (Reprints of CLASSIC X-MEN 19 and 12 (2nd stories)) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 19 (2ND STORY) (MAGNETO + ISABELLA) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 428 (MYSTIQUE) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 15 (2ND) (CORSAIR JOINS THE STARJAMMERS) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 16 (2ND STORY) (BANSHEES ORIGIN) 
X-MEN MINUS ONE FLASHBACK 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 4 

UNTOLD TALES OF SPIDER-MAN -1 (LOGAN) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 72-84 (WEAPON X) 
ALPHA FLIGHT MINUS ONE FLASHBACK (Mac, Heather, Puck, Logan)(Mac marries Heather) 

WOLVERINE MINUS ONE FLASHBACK 
CABLE MINUS ONE FLASHBACK (RAHNE, MOIRA) 
WOLVERINE/CABLE: GUTS AND GLORY 
BEFORE THE FANTASTIC FOUR: BEN GRIMM AND LOGAN 1-3 
LOGAN: SHADOW SOCIETY 
ALPHA FLIGHT SPECIAL 1992 (Logan, Mac, Sasquatch, Shaman, Snowbird, Smart Alec) 
UNCANNY ORIGINS 3 (ANGEL) 
UNCANNY ORIGINS 6 (BEAST) 

CLASSIC X-MEN 41-42 (2ND STORIES) (SCOTT AT SINISTERS ORPHANAGE) 
X-FACTOR MINUS ONE (ALEX, SINISTER) 
UNCANNY X-MEN MINUS ONE (TRASK FAMILY, RACHEL, SANCTITY) 
THE UNTOLD LEGEND OF CAPTAIN MARVEL 1-3 (DEATHBIRD, BROOD, IMPERIAL GUARD, CAPTAIN MARVEL) 


UNCANNY X-MEN 38-42 (2ND STORIES) 
AMAZING FANTASY #17 
UNCANNY X-MEN 44-46 (2ND STORIES) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 54-56 (2ND STORIES) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 49-52 (2ND STORIES) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN 2 
TALES OF SUSPENSE 49 
AVENGERS 3 
UNCANNY X-MEN 3 
THOR CORPS 3 
PROFESSOR XAVIER AND THE X-MEN 4 (ALL NEW STORY FEATURING QUICKSILVER AND THE SCARLET WITCH) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 4 
UNCANNY X-MEN 5 
STRANGE TALES 120 
MARVELS 2 
FANTASTIC FOUR 28 
UNCANNY X-MEN 6 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL 1 
THOR 109 
UNCANNY X-MEN 7 
UNTOLD TALES OF SPIDER-MAN 21 
STRANGE TALES 128 (QUICKSILVER & SCARLET WITCH) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 8 
UNTOLD TALES OF SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL '97 
UNCANNY X-MEN 9 
FANTASTIC FOUR 35-36 
UNCANNY X-MEN 10 
UNCANNY X-MEN 11 
MARVEL HEROES & LEGENDS 97 
AVENGERS 16 (QUICKSILVER + SCARLET WITCH JOIN AVENGERS) 
THOR 116 (NO X-CHAR) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 12 
UNCANNY X-MEN 13 
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 3 
MARVEL: HEROES AND LEGENDS 1996 
UNCANNY X-MEN 14 
UNCANNY X-MEN 15 
UNCANNY X-MEN 16 
UNCANNY X-MEN 17-27 
STRANGE TALES 156 
UNCANNY X-MEN 28 
UNCANNY X-MEN 29 
UNCANNY X-MEN 30 
UNCANNY X-MEN 31 
UNCANNY X-MEN 32 
UNCANNY X-MEN 33 
UNCANNY X-MEN 34 
UNCANNY X-MEN 35 
UNCANNY X-MEN 36 
UNCANNY X-MEN 37 
UNCANNY X-MEN 38 
UNCANNY X-MEN 39 
EMMA FROST 1-6 
EMMA FROST 7-12 
EMMA FROST 13-14 
GENERATION X -1 (BANSHEE, EMMA FROST) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 40 
UNCANNY X-MEN 41 
UNCANNY X-MEN 42 


AVENGERS ANNUAL 1 (QUICKSILVER, SCARLET WITCH) (NEED TO FIND THIS) 
AVENGERS 45 (QUICKSILVER, SCARLET WITCH) 
AVENGERS 47-49 (MAGNETO) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 43 
UNCANNY X-MEN 44 
UNCANNY X-MEN 45 
AVENGERS 53 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 71 (QUICKSILVER) 
MARVEL SUPER HEROES 13 (CAROL DANVERS) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 1-11 (CAROL DANVERS) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 46-48 
KA-ZAR QUARTERLY 2, 3, MARVEL TALES 30 (ANGEL) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 49-52 
AVENGERS 60 (CAMEO) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 110 (VIPER) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 111 (VIPER) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 113 (VIPER) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 12 (CAROL DANVERS) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 13 (CAROL DANVERS) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 14 (CAROL DANVERS) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 53 
AVENGERS 62 (NO X-CHAR) 
SUB MARINER 14 (60'S SERIES) 
AVENGERS 65 (NO X-CHAR) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 15 (NO X-CHAR) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 16 (CAROL DANVERS) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 17 (NO X-CHAR) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 18 (CAROL DANVERS) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 54-63 (#54 HAVOK) 
FANTASTIC FOUR 102-104 (MAGNETO) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 64-65 
CLASSIC X-MEN 14 (2ND STORY) (Lilandra, DKen) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 66 
FANTASTIC FOUR: THE WORLDS GREATEST COMICS MAGAZINE! 3 
FANTASTIC FOUR: THE WORLDS GREATEST COMICS MAGAZINE! 4 
SECOND STORY IN X-MEN #94 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 1 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 2 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 3 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 4 
UNCANNY ORIGINS 9 (STORM) 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 5 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 6 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 7 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 8 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 9 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 10 
ASTONISHING TALES 1 (KA-ZAR) 
ASTONISHING TALES 2 (KA-ZAR, GAROKK) 
ASTONISHING TALES 3 (KA-ZAR, ZALADANE) 
ASTONISHING TALES 4 (KA-ZAR, ZALADANE) 
ASTONISHING TALES 5 (KA-ZAR, ZALADANE) 
ASTONISHING TALES 6 (KA-ZAR) 
ASTONISHING TALES 7 (KA-ZAR) 
ASTONISHING TALES 9 (KA-ZAR) 
ASTONISHING TALES 8 (KA-ZAR) 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 11 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 12 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 13 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 14 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 15 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 16 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 17 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 18 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 19 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 20 
FANTASTIC FOUR #102 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 21 
FANTASTIC FOUR #103 
FANTASTIC FOUR #104 
X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS 22 
AVENGERS 75 
AVENGERS 76 
AVENGERS 77 (QUICKSILVER, SCARLET WITCH) 
AMAZING ADVENTURES 9-10 (MAGNETO) 
SUB-MARINER 52-54 (SUNFIRE) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 92 
AVENGERS 88 (PROF. X CAMEO) 

AVENGERS 90 (CAROL DANVERS) 

AVENGERS 92 (QUICKSILVER, SCARLET WITCH) 
HULK 150 
AMAZING ADVENTURES (BEAST) 11-13 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 4 
AMAZING ADVENTURES (BEAST) 14-17 
HULK 161 
AVENGERS 102 
AVENGERS 103 
AVENGERS 104 
AVENGERS 105 
AVENGERS 107 (SCARLET WITCH, NO X-CHAR) 
AVENGERS 110 
AVENGERS 111 
SHANNA THE SHE DEVIL 5 
DAREDEVIL 111 (SILVER SAMURAI) 
ADV INTO FEAR 20 (MORBIUS THE LIVING VAMPIRE) 
HULK 172 

AVENGERS 117 (SUNFIRE) 

CAPTAIN AMERICA 172 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 173 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 174 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 175 

IRON MAN 68, 69, 70 (SUNFIRE) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 34 (CAROL DANVERS) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 35 (CAROL DANVERS) 

MARVEL TEAM-UP 23 

HULK 180 (WOLVERINE) 
HULK 181 (WOLVERINE) 
HULK 182 (WOLVERINE) 
WHAT IF 31: WOLVERINE HAD KILLED THE HULK? (Not in chronology, but this is the divergence point.) 
ALPHA FLIGHT 9 (2ND STORY) (Aurora, Logan) 

DEFENDERS 15-16 
X-FORCE MINUS ONE (PROUDSTAR BROTHERS, BOOM-BOOM, HER DAD, PROUDSTAR PARENTS, WHITECLOUD, MYSTIQUE, DESTINY, RINGMASTER) 

UNCANNY ORIGINS 8 (NIGHTCRAWLER) (PAGES 1-14) 
EXCALIBUR MINUS ONE (Kurt, Margali, Amanda, set 2 days before Kurt goes off to the X-Men) 
UNCANNY ORIGINS 8 (NIGHTCRAWLER) (PAGES 15-22) 

GIANT SIZE X-MEN 1 
CLASSIC X-MEN 1 (2ND STORY) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 94 (1ST PART) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 27 (2ND STORY) 

GIANT-SIZE AVENGERS 1 (SCARLET WITCH) 

CAPTAIN MARVEL 36 (NO X-CHAR) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 37 (NO X-CHAR) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 38 (NO X-CHAR) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 39 (NO X-CHAR) 


CAPTAIN AMERICA 180 (VIPER) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 181 (VIPER) 
AVENGERS 131 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 182 (VIPER) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 183 (BEAST PHONE) 

FANTASTIC FOUR 150 (QUICKSILVER AND CRYSTALS WEDDING) 

GIANT SIZE AVENGERS 4 (Vision and Scarlet Witch wedding) 
AVENGERS 137 
AVENGERS 138 
AVENGERS 139 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 40 (CAROL DANVERS) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 41(NO X-CHAR) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 43 (NO X-CHAR) 
AVENGERS 140 

MARVEL TEAM-UP 38 
AVENGERS 141-144 
AVENGERS 147-149 
AVENGERS 145 
AVENGERS 146 

Giant-Size Dracula 2 (Kate Fraser) 
Giant-Size Dracula 3 (Kate Fraser) 
Marvel Preview 3 (Dai Thomas) (magazine) 
CAPTAIN BRITAIN WEEKLY 1-39 
SUPER SPIDER-MAN & CAPTAIN BRITAIN 231-247 (CAPTAIN BRITAIN) 


CAPTAIN AMERICA 224 
CLASSIC X-MEN 10, 2, 5 (2ND STORY) 
GIANT SIZE FANTASTIC FOUR 4 
GIANT-SIZE SPIDER-MAN 4 (MOSES MAGNUM) 
POWER MAN ANNUAL 1 (WHITE KING, MOSES MAGNUM) 
THOR 233 (SCOTT CAMETTE) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 94 (2ND PART) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 95 
CLASSIC X-MEN 3 (2ND) 
CHAMPIONS 1-6 
IRON MAN 90 
AVENGERS 150-153 
AVENGERS ANNUAL 6 
AVENGERS 154 
SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP 9 
AVENGERS 155-156 
DEFENDERS 44 
MARVEL COMICS SUPER-SPECIAL 1 
AVENGERS 157-160 
MARVEL TREASURY EDITION 13 
MS. MARVEL1-4 
MS. MARVEL 5 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 50 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 51 
CHAMPIONS 7-11 
AVENGERS 161-162 
CHAMPIONS 12-13 
GHOST RIDER 23 (CHAMPIONS) 
CHAMPIONS 14-15 
GODZILLA 3 (CHAMPIONS) 
IRON MAN ANNUAL 4 (CHAMPIONS) 
AVENGERS 163 
AVENGERS 164-166 
IRON MAN 98 (SUNFIRE) 
IRON MAN 99 (SUNFIRE) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 96 
CLASSIC X-MEN 4 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 97 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 161-162 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 51 
CLASSIC X-MEN 6 (2ND) 
MARVEL HOLIDAY SPC 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN 98-99 
CLASSIC X-MEN 7 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 100 
CLASSIC X-MEN 8 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 101 
MARVEL TEAM-UP ANNUAL 1 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 53 
MARVEL TALES 262 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 57 (SILVER SAMURAI) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 9 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 102, 103 
CLASSIC X-MEN 11 (2ND) 
IRON FIST 11 
UNCANNY X-MEN 104 

Ms. Marvel 6-10 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 61 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 62 
Ms. Marvel 11-14 
UNCANNY X-MEN 105 
UNCANNY X-MEN 106 
DEVIL DINOSAUR VOL.2 #1 (GLADIATOR) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 107 
UNCANNY X-MEN 108 
IRON FIST 14 (1ST SABRETOOTH) 
IRON FIST 15 
UNCANNY X-MEN 109 
Power Man and Iron Fist 50 
SUPER-VILLAIN TEAM-UP 14 
CHAMPIONS 16 
CHAMPIONS 17 
PPSSPIDER-MAN 17, 18 
AVENGERS ANNUAL 7 
MARVEL 2-IN-1 ANNUAL 2 
AVENGERS 167 
AVENGERS 168 
DEFENDERS 57 (MS. MARVEL) 
MS. MARVEL 15 
MS. MARVEL 16 
DEFENDERS 58 
MARVEL FANFARE 60/2 (ROGUE, MYSTIQUE, BROTHERHOOD) 
MS. MARVEL 17-18 
DOCTOR STRANGE (2ND SERIES) 29 
AVENGERS 170-171 
CLASSIC X-MEN 28 (2ND) 
BIZARRE ADVENTURES 27 (PHOENIX Story, Main FLASHBACK) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 110 
GHOST RIDER (1st SERIES) #34 
CAPTAIN AMERICA ANNUAL 4 
CLASSIC X-MEN 12 (2ND) 
HULK ANNUAL 7 
Classic X-Men 44 (2nd story) 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 65-66 (1ST ARCADE)(CAPTAIN BRITAIN) 
MARVEL TREASURY ED 26 
CLASSIC X-MEN 13, 18,39 (2ND) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 17 (2ND) 
AVENGERS 172 
SUPERNATURAL THRILLERS 9 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 69, 70 
MS. MARVEL 19 
AVENGERS 173-177 
MS. MARVEL 20-22 
Uncanny X-Men 111-114 
CLASSIC X-MEN 21 (2ND) 

AVENGERS ANNUAL 8 
AVENGERS 201 (2ND STORY) 
THOR 271 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 74 (SILVER SAMURAI) 
AVENGERS 178 
DAREDEVIL 155-157 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 228 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 229 

DEFENDERS 62-65 
UNCANNY X-MEN 115, 116 
CLASSIC X-MEN 22 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 117 
CLASSIC X-MEN 23 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 118 
CLASSIC X-MEN 24 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 119-121 
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST 56 
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST 57 
CLASSIC X-MEN 25 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 122 
CLASSIC X-MEN 31 (2ND) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 26 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 123 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 90 (BEAST) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 124 
CLASSIC X-MEN 30 (2ND) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 29 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 3 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 89 (NIGHTCRAWLER) 
BIZARRE ADVENTURES 27 (NIGHTCRAWLER STORY) 

Hulk Annual 8 (Sasquatch) 
Machine Man 18 (Sasquatch, Northstar, Aurora) 


AVENGERS 179-180 
UNCANNY X-MEN 125, 126 
CLASSIC X-MEN 32, 33 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 127, 128 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 237 
IRON MAN 114 
IRON MAN 115 

MARVEL SPOTLIGHT2 1 (NO X-CHAR) 
Avengers 181 
MS. MARVEL 23 
AVENGERS 182 
BLACK PANTHER 14 
Black PANTHER 15 

MARVEL TEAM-UP 76 (Ms. Marvel) 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 77 (Ms. Marvel) 

AVENGERS 183 
AVENGERS 184 
Marvel comics presents 160 (Ms. Marvel app. In one panel only, nothing else happens here chronologically) 
AVENGERS 185 
MARVEL 2-IN-1 51 
FF ANNUAL 14 (MS. MARVEL) 
IRON MAN 125 
UNCANNY X-MEN 129 (1ST PART) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 36, 20, 34 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 129 (2ND PART) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 35 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 130 
UNCANNY X-MEN 131 
UNCANNY X-MEN 132 
UNCANNY X-MEN 133 
UNCANNY X-MEN 134 
F 
CODE OF HONOR 2 (X-men apps, occur between pages of uxm 135) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 136 
UNCANNY X-MEN 137 
Fantastic Four Annual 18 (Prologue Only, occurs during UXM 137) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 43 (2ND) 

Note: the next Four books are not in chronology, but this is the divergence point. 
PHOENIX :The Untold Story 1 
WHAT IF? (1ST SERIES) 27: Phoenix had not died? 
WHAT IF? (2nd series) 32: Phoenix had not Died? 
WHAT IF? (2nd Series) 33: Phoenix Rose Again? 

UNCANNY X-MEN 138 
Bizarre Adventures 27 (Phoenix Story, framing sequence only, Sara Grey Bailey) 
Marvel Treasury Edition 27 (Angel Story) 
CLASSIC X-MEN 40 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 4 
FLASHBACK IN FF 286 (BEAST) 
Avengers 186 
AVENGERS 187 
AVENGERS 188 
Avengers Annual. 9 
Avengers 189-191 
MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 66 (SCARLET WITCH) 
Marvel Super-Heroes (3rd series) 10 (Ms. Marvel 24) 

Marvel Super Heroes (3rd series) 11 (MS. Marvel 25) (First part only) 
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST 66 
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST 78 
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST 84 

AVENGERS 192-196 
FLASHBACK IN AVENGERS 200 (MS. MARVEL) 
AVENGERS 197 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 250 
AVENGERS 198-200 
FLASHBACK IN AVG ANNUAL 10(MS. MARVEL) 
AVENGERS 201-205 
MARVEL TREASURY EDITION 27 (ANGEL STORY) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 139, 140 
MARVEL 2 IN 1 68 
Marvel 2 in 1 69 
UNCANNY X-MEN 141, 142 (DAYS OF FUTURE PAST) 

CLASSIC X-MEN 37, 38 (2ND) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 203 
Dazzler 1 
AVENGERS 206 
DAZZLER 2 

MARVEL TEAM-UP 79 (KULAN GATH) 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 83 (SILVER SAMURAI) 
Marvel team-up 84 (SILVER SAMURAI) 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 85 (SILVER SAMURAI) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 207 (MESMERO) 
DAREDEVIL 164 
HULK 250 (CAPTAIN BRITAIN) 
HULK ANNUAL 11 
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST 90 
MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 75 
Avengers 207-208 
UNCANNY X-MEN 143-144 
Marvel Team-Up 100 
Rom 17,18 
SPIDERWOMAN 37, 38 (1st + 2nd Siryn) 
Marvel TWO in ONE 76 (ICEMAN) 
Uncanny X-Men 145 
UNCANNY X-MEN 146 
Uncanny X-Men 147 
Bizarre Adventures 27 (Iceman Story) 
Reprinted in: 
X-MEN RARITIES (Iceman story from Bizarre Adventures 27, in color) 
FANTASTIC FOUR 230 (BEAST) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 259 
Dazzler 3-5 
UNCANNY X-MEN 148 
SPIDER-WOMAN 39 
Best of Marvel Comics 1 (Wolverine Story) 
AVENGERS 209 
UNCANNY X-MEN 149 
DAZZLER 6-7 
Hulk 263 (Avalanche) 
Marvel Super-Heroes Vol.3 #11 (Part Three) (I put the issue here, as its the most important part of story) 
What IF (v.2) 66 (cannon scenes) (Brotherhood of Evil Mutants) 
Avengers Annual 10 
MARVEL 2-IN-1 78 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 261 
AVENGERS 210 
DEFENDERS 98 
AVENGERS 211 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 108-109 
ROM 31, 32 
Uncanny X-Men 150 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 5 
MARVEL FANFARE 1-4 
MICRONAUTS 37 
UNCANNY X-MEN 151-152 
MAN-THING (Second series) 11 (AMANDA + MARGALI) 
DOCTOR STRANGE (SECOND SERIES) 57-58 (AMANDA + MARGALI) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 153 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 117,118 
Marvel Graphic Novel 1: The Death of Captain Marvel 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 29 (SECOND STORY) (COLOSSUS, ILLYANA, WOLVERINE) 
MARVEL FANFARE 4 (Page 20) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 229 (JUGGERNAUT) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 230 (JUGGERNAUT) 
AVENGERS 214 
FANTASTIC FOUR 240 (Birth of Luna) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 154 
UNCANNY X-MEN 155 
DEFENDERS 103-109 
DAZZLER 8-14 
DAZZLER 15 
SPIDER-WOMAN 42 (Silver Samurai, Viper) 
SPIDER-WOMAN 43 (Silver Samurai, Viper) 
SPIDER-WOMAN 44 (VIPER) 
SPIDER-WOMAN 46 (GENERAL COY) 
AVENGERS ANNUAL. 11 
DAZZLER 16 
AVENGERS 221 (DAZZLER) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 156 
UNCANNY X-MEN 157 
UNCANNY X-MEN 158 
UNCANNY X-MEN 159 
UNCANNY X-MEN 160 
MAGIK 1-4 
Ka-Zar 29 (Belasco) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 161 
DAZZLER 17-21 

DEFENDERS 112-116 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 281 (VIPER) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 282 (VIPER) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 283 (VIPER) 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 124 
AVENGERS 231 
DEFENDERS 120,121 
DAZZLER 22 
DAZZLER 23 
DAZZLER 24 
DAZZLER 25 
DAZZLER 26 
DAZZLER 27 
DAZZLER 28 
UNCANNY X-MEN 162-166 
NEW MUTANTS GRAPHIC NOVEL 
NEW MUTANTS 1-3 
FANTASTIC FOUR 249, 250 
UNCANNY X-MEN 167 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 6 
NEW MUTANTS 4 
MARVEL TEAM-UP ANNUAL 6 

ALPHA FLIGHT 1 
MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 83 
MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 84 
MARVEL FANFARE 7 (UNUS,BLOB) 
CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS 1-3 

HULK 272 
Hulk 273 
HULK 277 (Beast) 
HULK 278-279 
MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE ANNUAL 7 
MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE 96 
ALPHA FLIGHT 2 
FANTASTIC FOUR 260 (Alpha Flight) 
ALPHA FLIGHT 3 
ALPHA FLIGHT 4 
Alpha Flight 5 
SPECIAL EDITION X-Men 1 (2ND STORY) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 22 (Wolfsbane, Psyche, Moira story) 
FIRESTAR 1 
VISION AND THE SCARLET WITCH (1ST SERIES) #1-4 
Avengers 234 (Flashback) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 168 (ALL BUT LAST PAGE) 
WOLVERINE LS #1 (PAGES 1-6) 
X-MEN GRAPHIC NOVEL 
X-MEN/ALPHA FLIGHT II #1 
X-MEN/ALPHA FLIGHT II #2 
UNCANNY X-MEN #168 (LAST PAGE) 
WOLVERINE LS 1 (PAGES 7-22) 
WOLVERINE LS 2 
WOLVERINE LS 3 
WOLVERINE LS 4 
UNCANNY X-MEN 169 
UNCANNY X-MEN 170 


UNCANNY X-MEN 171 
NEW MUTANTS 5-8 
FANTASTIC FOUR 261 
FANTASTIC FOUR 262 
DEFENDERS 122-125 
UNCANNY X-MEN 172-174 

Uncanny x-men 175 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 7 (X-Men, after main part of UXM 175,but Before the wedding in UXM 175) 
MARVEL FANFARE 24 (2ND) (Beast, Wolverine, occurs after the main portion of UXM 175, but before the wedding in UXM 175) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 176 
IRON MAN 177 
DD 196-200 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 135 
MOON KNIGHT 35 

DEFENDERS 126-129 
DEFNDERS 130 
AVENGERS 239 (Beast, in between pages of Defenders 130) 
DEFENDERS 131 
Code of Honor 3 (Beast App only, not whole issue) 
POWER MAN AND IRON FIST 110 (BEAST) 
DEFENDERS 132 
DEFENDERS 133 
AVENGERS ANNUAL 13 (Beast) 
DAZZLER 29-34 
NEW MUTANTS 9-12 
MICRONAUTS 45 (ARCADE) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 177 
UNCANNY X-MEN 178 
UNCANNY X-MEN 179 
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN 91 (BLOB APP., UNUS DIES) 
NEW MUTANTS 13 
CRYSTAR 6 
X-MEN MICRONAUTS 1-4 
NEW MUTANTS 14 
UNCANNY X-MEN 180 
SECRET WARS 1-12 
NEW MUTANTS 15, 16 
UNCANNY X-MEN 181 
UNCANNY X-MEN 182 
CODE OF HONOR 3 (Rogue App.) 
NEW MUTANTS 17 
UNCANNY X-MEN 183 
DAZZLER GRAPHIC NOVEL 
BEAUTY AND THE BEAST 1-4 
DAZZLER 35-37 
MCP 32 (Sunfire Story) 
FIRESTAR 2 
NEW MUTANTS 18-20 
ALPHA FLIGHT 6-9 
ROM 56-58 
ALPHA FLIGHT 10-12 
KITTY PRYDE AND WOLVERINE 1-3 
UNCANNY X-MEN 184 
NEW MUTANTS 21, ANNUAL 1 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 149 (CANNONBALL) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 185 
MARVEL FANFARE 40 (2ND) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 186-188 
THOR 352 
KITTY PRYDE AND WOLVERINE 4-6 
MARVEL TEAM-UP 150 
NEW MUTANTS 22-25 
MARVEL SUPER-HEROES VOLUME 3 NUMBER 2 (ROGUE STORY) 
ROM ANNUAL 3 
UNCANNY X-MEN 189-191 
UNCANNY X-MEN 192 
MARVEL TEAM-UP ANNUAL 7 
REVENGE OF THE LIVING MONOLITH GN 
ALPHA FLIGHT 13 
CRYSTAR 11 
ALPHA FLIGHT 14 
ALPHA FLIGHT 15 
ALPHA FLIGHT 16-17 (Wolverine) 
ALPHA FLIGHT 18-21 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 8 
DEFENDERS 134-139 
ROM 61-66 
SUB-MARINER VOL.2 #3 (DEFENDERS) 

ROM ANNUAL 4 (IMPERIAL GUARD) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 305-307 (CAPTAIN BRITAIN) 
DAZZLER 38 
WOLVERINE & NICK FURY: THE SCORPIO CONNECTION 
X-MEN/ALPHA FLIGHT 1, 2 
UNCANNY X-MEN 193 
NEW MUTANTS 26 
FIRESTAR 3, 4 
NEW MUTANTS 27, 28 
UNCANNY X-MEN 194 
NIGHTCRAWLER 1-4 
POWER PACK 11, 12 
UNCANNY X-MEN 195 
NEW MUTANTS 29 
SECRET WARS II # 1 
NEW MUTANTS 30, 31 
AVENGERS 256 (Ka-Zar) 
AVENGERS 257 (Ka-Zar) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 196 
SECRET WARS II #2 
SECRET WARS II #3 
DEADPOOL TEAM UP 
UNCANNY X-MEN 197 
DAZZLER 39 
ALPHA FLIGHT 22-27 
SECRET WARS II #4 
DAZZLER 40 
UNCANNY X-MEN 198 
NEW MUTANTS 32-34 
SECRET WARS II # 5 
NEW MUTANTS SPEC ED 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN 199 
LONGSHOT 1-6 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 9 
UNCANNY X-MEN 200 
NEW MUTANTS 35 
UNCANNY X-MEN 201 
MARVEL FANFARE 33 

VISION & Scarlet WItch II #1 
WEST COAST AVENGERS 2 
VISION & Scarlet WItch II #2 
WEST COAST AVENGERS 3 
VISION & Scarlet WItch II #3 
VISION & Scarlet WItch II #4 
VISION & Scarlet WItch II #5 


VISION + SCARLET WITCH II #6 (Magneto) 

POWER PACK 19 
ALPHA FLIGHT 28 
HULK 313 
ALPHA FLIGHT 29-32 
ALPHA FLIGHT 33, 34 (X-MEN) 
HEROES FOR HOPE 1 
DAZZLER 41 
SECRET WARS II #6 (not sure if any x-char are in this) 
SECRET WARS II #7 
NEW MUTANTS 36 
UNCANNY X-MEN 202 

DEFENDERS 140-141 
DEFENDERS 148 
ICEMAN 1-4 
DEFENDERS 142-147, 149-151 (#148 is a filler issue, that doesnt take place in chronology with these issues) 
AVENGERS 263 
FANTASTIC FOUR 286 
DEFENDERS 152 
X-FACTOR 1 
DAZZLER 42 

AVENGERS 264 (NO X-CHAR) 

SECRET W II #8 
AVENGERS 265 (NO X-CHAR) 

POWER PACK 20 
NEW MUTANTS 37 
UNCANNY X-MEN 203 



SECRET WARS II #9 
VISION & Scarlet witch II #7 (Toad) 
VISION & SCARLET WITCH II # 8 
VISION & SCARLET WITCH II # 9 
VISION & SCARLET WITCH II # 10 


NEW MUTANTS 38-40 
AVENGERS 267-270 (NO X-CHAR) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA ANNUAL 8 

ALPHA FLIGHT 35-36 


PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN 116 (Sabretooth) 
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN 117 (no x-char) 
VISION & SCARLET WITCH II #11 
VISION & SCARLET WITCH II #12 (Magneto) 

NEW MUTANTS 41 
NEW MUTANTS 42 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL 2 (NEW MUTANTS) 
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN 119 (Sabretooth) 

NEW MUTANTS 43 
NEW MUTANTS 44 


X-MEN ARCHIVES FEATURING CAPTAIN BRITAIN 1-7 
CAPTAIN BRITAIN TRADE PAPERBACK 
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 2 
UNCANNY X-MEN 204, 205 
UNCANNY X-MEN 206 
X-FACTOR 2 
X-FACTOR 3 
ETERNALS VOL. 2 #8 (ANGEL) 
ALPHA FLIGHT 37-39 
AVENGERS 272 
ALPHA FLIGHT 40 
MARVEL FANFARE 28 
ALPHA FLIGHT ANNUAL 1 
ALPHA FLIGHT 41-42 

X-FACTOR 4 
X-FACTOR 5 
X-FACTOR 6 
X-FACTOR 7 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 1 
THOR 365 (Piper) 
IRON MAN ANNUAL 8 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 282 
MARVEL FANFARE 32 (BEAST AND ANGEL IN CAP AMERICA STORY) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 207, 208 
X-FACTOR 8 
UNCANNY X-MEN 209, 210 
X-FACTOR 9 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 10 
NEW MUTANTS 45 
UNCANNY X-MEN 211 
X-FACTOR 10 
THOR 373 
POWER PACK 27 
NEW MUTANTS 46 
UNCANNY X-MEN 212 
THOR 374 
X-FACTOR 11 
UNCANNY X-MEN 213, 214 
DAREDEVIL 238 
X-FACTOR 12 

AVENGERS ANNUAL 15 (FREEDOM FORCE, VAL COOPER) 
WEST COAST AVENGERS ANNUAL 1 (FREEDOM FORCE, BEAST) 
IRON MAN 214 (VAL COOPER) 

AVENGERS 280 

MEPHISTO VS. 1 
MEPHISTO VS. 2 
MARVEL FANFARE 40 (ANGEL STORY) 
MEPHISTO VS. 3 
MEPHISTO VS. 4 
NEW MUTANTS 47 
UNCANNY X-MEN 215-216 
UNCANNY X-MEN 217-218 
MARVEL FANFARE 38 (2ND) 
STRANGE TALES VOLUME 3 NUMBER 9 
ALPHA FLIGHT 43 (SEBASTIAN SHAW) 
ALPHA FLIGHT 44-51 
ALPHA FLIGHT Annual 2 
NEW MUTANTS 48 
NEW MUTANTS 49 
NEW MUTANTS 50 
NEW MUTANTS 51 
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 3 
Marvel SUP HR Spring SPEC 1 (MAGIK + CANNONBALL) 
NEW MUTANTS 52 
FALLEN ANGELS 1 
FALLEN ANGELS 2 
NEW MUTANTS 53 
NEW MUTANTS 54 
UNCANNY X-MEN 219 
SPIDER-MAN VS. WOLVERINE 1 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 29 
FANTASTIC FOUR VS X-MEN 1-4 
X-MEN VS AVENGERS 1-4 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 4 (SECOND STORY) 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 11 
X-FACTOR 13 
X-FACTOR 14 
POWER PACK 36 (MASTER MOLD) 
X-FACTOR 15 
THOR 377-378 
THOR 379 
X-FACTOR 16 
X-FACTOR 17 
FALLEN Angels 3-4 
Fallen Angels 5-8 
POWER PACK 33 
X-FACTOR 18-20 
HULK 336-337 

FANTASTIC FOUR 304 
FANTASIC FOUR 305 
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 20 
FANTASTIC FOUR 306 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 2 
WEST COAST AVENGERS 33 
WEST COAST AVENGERS 34 
WEST COAST AVENGERS 35 
WEST COAST AVENGERS 36 

NEW MUTANTS 55 
NEW MUTANTS 56 
NEW MUTANTS 57 

UNCANNY X-MEN 220 
DAREDEVIL 248-249 
ALPHA FLIGHT 52-53 (wolverine) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 221 
UNCANNY X-MEN 222 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 333 (FREEDOM FORCE, VAL) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 334 (FREEDOM FORCE, VAL) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 223 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 335 (VAL COOPER) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 224 
HULK 340 
NEW MUTANTS 58 
UNCANNY X-MEN 225 
UCNANNY X-MEN 226 
UNCANNY X-MEN 227 
NEW MUTANTS 59 
NEW MUTANTS 60 
NEW MUTANTS 61 


NEW MUTANTS 62 (NM in opening pages only, rest of story is about Empath & Magm) 
SPELLBOUND 4 
NEW MUTANTS 63 (Illyana, framing narration only) 
NEW MUTANTS 64 
NEW MUTANTS 65 
NEW MUTANTS 66 

X-FACTOR 21 
X-FACTOR 22 
X-FACTOR 23 

X-FACTOR 24 
X-FACTOR 25 
POWER PACK 35 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 339 
X-FACTOR 26 
FANTASTIC FOUR 312 

X-FACTOR 27, 28 
ST CD DS 18 
CLOAK + DAGGER VOLUME 3 # 1 
CLOAK + DAGGER VOLUME 3 # 2 
UNCANNY X-MEN 228, 229 
MARVEL FANFARE 55 (NEW MUTANTS) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 230 (NEW MUTANTS) 
EXCALIBUR SPCECIAL EDITION 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 3 (SECOND STORY) 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 3 
EXCALIBUR 1-3 
POWER PACK 40 
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 4 
UNCANNY X-MEN 231 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 1-10 (WOLVERINE: SAVE THE TIGER) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 232 
UNCANNY X-MEN 233 

X-FACTOR 29 
X-FACTOR 30 
X-FACTOR 31 

CAPTAIN AMERICA 344 (Val cooper) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 346 (FREEDOM FORCE, Val) 

X-FACTOR 32 
X-FACTOR 33 
FANTASTIC FOUR 342 (FLASHBACK WITH RUSTY) 
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 21 (QUICKSILVER) 
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 21 (SECOND STORY) (QUICKSILVER) 
INHUMANS GRAPHIC NOVEL (QUICKSILVER) 
DAREDEVIL 269 (BLOB & PYRO) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 234 
WOLVERINE 1-3 
WOLVERINE: DOOMBRINGER 
MARVEL AGE ANNUAL 4 
WOLVERINE 4-8 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 12 
ALPHA FLIGHT 54-60 
ALPHA FLIGHT 61 (x-men cameo) 
FANTASTIC FOUR 314 (BELASCO) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 235-237 
X-TERMINATORS 1-2 
UNCANNY X-MEN 238 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 16 (LONGSHOT/X-MEN STORY) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 10-17 (COLOSSUS) 
WOLVERINE 9 
WOLVERINE10 
NEW MUTANTS 67-70 

CAPTAIN AMERICA 347 (VAL) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 348 (VAL) 
AVENGERS 298 
HULK 350 (BEAST) 
AVENGERS ANNUAL 17 (BEAST) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 349 (BEAST BTS) 
AVENGERS 299 
AVENGERS 300 

UNCANNY X-MEN 239 
X-FACTOR 34 
X-FACTOR 35 
UNCANNY X-MEN 240 
UNCANNY X-MEN 241 
PETER PARKER, SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN 147 
X-FACTOR 36 
EXCALIBUR 4, 5 
X-TERMINATORS 3 
NEW MUTANTS 71 
POWER PACK 42 
X-TERMINATORS 4 
NEW MUTANTS 72 
NEW MUTANTS 73 
CLOAK AND DAGGER VOL. 3 #4 
POWER PACK 44 
X-FACTOR 37 
UNCANNY X-MEN 242 
FANTASTIC FOUR 324 
EXCALIBUR 6, 7 
X-FACTOR 38 
UNCANNY X-MEN 243 
X-FACTOR 39 
DAMAGE CONTROL L.S. #4 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 15 (MARVEL GIRL STORY) 

NEW MUTANTS 74 
EXCALIBUR 8 
NEW MUTANTS 75 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 4 (THIRD STORY)(INFERNO AFTERMATH) 

X-FACTOR 40 
NEW MUTANTS 76 

CAPTAIN AMERICA 350 (VAL) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 351 (VAL) 
MCP 41 (FREEDOM FORCE, SEN. KELLY STORY) 

EXCALIBUR 9-10 
EXCALIBUR 11 Pages 1-9 
X-Men: True Friends 1-3 
EXCALIBUR 11 Pages 10-17 
MOJO MAYHEM 
EXCALIBUR 11 Page 18 
EXCALIBUR 20 
EXCALIBUR 11 Pages 19-22 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 352-354 (VAL) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 17-24 (CYCLOPS, BANSHEE, MOIRA) 

WEST COAST AVENGERS 42 (SCARLET WITCH) 
WEST COAST AVENGERS 43 (SCARLET WITCH) 
WEST COAST AVENGERS 44 (SCARLET WITCH) 
WEST COAST AVENGERS 45 (SCARLET WITCH) 
WEST COAST AVENGERS 46 (SCARLET WITCH) 

CAPTAIN AMERICA 355 (VAL) 
AVENGERS 305 (BEAST) 
FLASHBACK STORY IN X-FACTOR 47 
UNCANNY X-MEN 244 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 13 (SECOND STORY) 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL 6-7 
WOLVERINE 11-16 
UNCANNY X-MEN 245 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 13 


MARVEL SUPER-HEROES VOL.3 #6-8 (SENTINELS STORY) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 48 (STORM STORY) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 24-31 (HAVOK/ WOLVERINE STORY) 
HAVOK & WOLVERINE: MELTDOWN 1-4 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 38-47 (WOLVERINE SHADOW STORY) 
ALPHA FLIGHT 62-77 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 51-53 (wolverine/ alpha flight) 
ALPHA FLIGHT 78-86 
WOLVERINE: THE JUNGLE ADVENTURE 
WOLVERINE: DOOMBRINGER 

WOLVERINE 17 
WOLVERINE 18 
UNCANNY X-MEN 246 

WOLVERINE 19 (EXCEPT LAST 2 PAGES WITH MAGNETO, WHICH HAPPEN LATER) 
Wolverine 20 
UNCANNY X-MEN 247 
UNCANNY X-MEN 248 
Flashback in UNCANNY X-MEN 267 
Flashback in UNCANNY X-MEN 249 
WOLVERINE 21 
UNCANNY X-MEN 249 
UNCANNY X-MEN 250 
WOLVERINE 22-23 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 363 (WOLVERINE app., between panels of WOLV #23) 

X-FACTOR 41 
X-FACTOR 42 

NEW MUTANTS 77 
NEW MUTANTS 78 
X-FACTOR 43 
X-FACTOR 44 
X-FACTOR 45 
X-FACTOR 46 
X-FACTOR 47 (1ST PAGE ONLY, REST IS FB STORY) 
X-FACTOR 48 
FANTASTIC FOUR 335 (APOCALYPSE) 
X-FACTOR 49 
X-FACTOR 50 
NEW MUTANTS 79 
NEW MUTANTS 80 
NEW MUTANTS 81 
NEW MUTANTS 82 

Flashback only in AVENGERS ANNUAL 19 (STORY 3) (MAGNETO) (comic to be put in proper place) ??? 


UNCANNY X-MEN 251 
UNCANNY X-MEN 252 
UNCANNY X-MEN 253 (magneto) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 254 (VAL) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 255 (FREEDOM FORCE) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 256 
NEW MUTANTS 83 
NEW MUTANTS 84 
NEW MUTANTS 85 
NEW MUTANTS 86 (FREEDOM FORCE) 

AVENGERS WEST COAST 47 (Scarlet Witch) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 48 (Scarlet Witch) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 49 (Scarlet Witch) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 50 (Scarlet Witch) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 51 (Scarlet Witch) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 52 (Scarlet Witch) 
AVENGERS ANNUAL 18 (NO X-CHARACTERS) 

MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS # 39-44 (BEAST IN WONDER MAN STORY MCP 38-45) 

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 322 (Sabretooth) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 323 (Sabretooth-BTS) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 324 (Sabretooth) 

NEW MUTANTS 87 
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 5 (ATLANTIS ATTACKS) 
X-FACTOR 51 
NEW MUTANTS 88 
NEW MUTANTS 89 
QUASAR 8 (NEW MUTANTS) 

X-FACTOR ANNUAL 4 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL 5 (NO X-CHARACTERS) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST ANNUAL 4 
THOR ANNUAL 14 
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 22 

WOLVERINE 19 (LAST 2 PAGES WITH MAGNETO ONLY) 
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN 158 (MAGNETO) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 327 (MAGNETO) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 366 (MAGNETO) 
THOR 411 (Juggernaut) 
THOR 412 (Juggernaut) 


AVENGERS WEST COAST 53 (MAGNETO) 

AVENGERS 312 (FREEDOM FORCE) 


UNCANNY X-MEN 257 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 60 (MAGNETO) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 54 (MAGNETO) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 258 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 61 (MAGNETO) 
AVENGERS 313 pP. 1-13 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 55 (MAGNETO) pgs. 1-2 
AVENGERS 313 PP. 14-20 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 367 (MAGNETO) 
AVENGERS 313 PP. 21-22 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 55 PP. 3-17 
AVENGERS ANN. 19/3 FB ONLY P. 10 PANELS 2-6 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 55 PP. 18-22 


PUNISHER 29 (FREEDOM FORCE) 

CAPTAIN AMERICA 368 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 369 (SELENE) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 370 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 56 (MAGNETO) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 57 (MAGNETO) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 58 (no x-char) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 59 (no x-char) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 60 (MAGNETO) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 328 (SEBASTIAN SHAW) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 329 (SEBASTIAN SHAW) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 78 (MAGNETO, SELENE, WHITE QUEEN) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 61 (QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 62 (QUICKSILVER) 


HULK 369 (FREEDOM FORCE) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 82-87 (FIRESTAR/FREEDOM FORCE/ WHITE QUEEN STORY) 
AVENGERS: DEATHTRAP: THE VAULT GN (FREEDOM FORCE) 

ALPHA FLIGHT 87 
ALPHA FLIGHT 88 (VAL) 
ALPHA FLIGHT 89 
ALPHA FLIGHT 90 
Avengers 320-324 (alpha flight) 
Alpha Flight 91 
ALPHA FLIGHT 92 


AVENGERS WEST COAST ANNUAL 5 (QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS ANNUAL 19 (QUICKILVER) 
AVENGERS ANNUAL 19 (QUICKILVER) (5TH STORY) 

AVENGERS WEST COAST 63 (QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 74 (NO X-CHAR) 






EXCALIBUR 12-19 
EXCALIBUR 21 
EXCALIBUR 22 
EXCALIBUR 23 
EXCALIBUR 24 
EXCALIBUR 25 
BLACK KNIGHT2 2 (CAPTAIN BRITAIN) 
QUASAR 11 
EXCALIBUR 27 


QUASAR 17 (QUICKILVER) 



UNCANNY X-MEN 259 
UNCANNY X-MEN 260 
X-FACTOR 52-54 
UNCANNY X-MEN 261 
PUNISHER 33-34 (REAVERS) 

Punisher: No Escape (Val) 
Nomad L.S. 1-4 (Val) 

X-FACTOR 55 
UNCANNY X-MEN 262 (Val) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 263 (Val) 
X-FACTOR 56 (PAGES 1-10) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 264 (Val) 
X-FACTOR 56 (PAGES 11-22) 
X-FACTOR 57-58 
GHOST RIDER (90S SERIES) 9 (X-FACTOR) 
NEW MUTANTS 90-92 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 73-74 (COLOSSUS) 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 75 (ICEMAN, BEAST BTS) 


EXCALIBUR 28-34 
X-MEN SPOTLIGHT ON...THE STARJAMMERS 1, 2 
MCP 31-38 (EXCALIBUR STORY) (note: the big dragon is in 37 and 38, so it happens after the cross time caper, Kitty is in it so it happens after girls's school from heck) 
EXCALIBUR 26 (This has Moira and Kitty and Widget in it, so it must happen in this period) 


UNCANNY X-MEN 265 
UNCANNY X-MEN 266 (Val) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 269 (OCCURS BETWEEN 266 + 267) (Val) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 267 

FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 23 
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 6 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 5 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 14 


THOR 427-430 
MCP 75 (EXCALIBUR STORY) 
QUASAR 23 (RACHEL) 
SHE HULK 26 

EXCALIBUR 35 
EXCALIBUR 36 
UNCANNY X-MEN 268 
Marvel comics presents 79 (Sunspot Story) 
NEW MUTANTS SUMMER SPECIAL 1 
NEW MUTANTS 93 
NEW MUTANTS 94 
WOLVERINE RAHNE OF TERRA 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 48-50 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 54-61 
WOLVERINE 24-30 
WOLVERINE 31-33 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 62-63 
WOLVERINE 34 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 74 (ICEMAN STORY) 
X-FACTOR 59 
X-FACTOR SPECIAL: PRISONER OF LOVE 
MARVEL FANFARE 50 (FRAMING SEQUENCE) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 71 (WARLOCK STORY) 

X-TINCTION AGENDA: 
UNCANNY X-MEN 270; NEW MUTANTS 95; X-FACTOR 60; UNCANNY X-MEN 271;NEW MUTANTS 96; X-FACTOR 61; UNCANNY X-MEN 272, NEW MUTANTS 97; X-FACTOR 62 

WOLVERINE: BLOODLUST 
MARVEL FANFARE 54-55 (WOLVERINE STORY) 
Alpha flight 93-94 
FANTASTIC FOUR 347-349 

AVENGERS WEST COAST 65 (QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 66 (QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 67 (QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 68 (QUICKSILVER) 

AVENGERS 329 (QUICKILVER) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 69 (QUICKSILVER) 

EXCALIBUR 37 
EXCALIBUR 38 
EXCALIBUR 39 



EXCALIBUR 40 
EXCALIBUR 41 

AVENGERS WEST COAST 70 (QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 71 (SUNFIRE) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 74 (SUNFIRE) 


MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 64-71 
WOLVERINE 35-37 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 15 (STORY 4) (WOLVERINE STORY) 

X-FACTOR 63-64 

UNCANNY X-MEN 273 
UNCANNY X-MEN 274 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 85-92 (BEAST STORY) 
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 7 STORY 3 (JEAN/SCOTT/X-FACTOR JR.) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 275 
UNCANNY X-MEN 276 
UNCANNY X-MEN 277 

DEADPOOL MINUS ONE 

NEW MUTANTS 98 
NEW MUTANTS 99 
NEW MUTANTS100 
EXCALIBUR GRAPHIC NOVEL: WEIRD WAR III 
NEW WARRIORS 5 (WHITE QUEEN) 
NEW WARRIORS 8 (WHITE QUEEN) 
NEW WARRIORS 9 (WHITE QUEEN) 
NEW WARRIORS 10 (WHITE QUEEN) 

Kings of Pain: 
NEW MUTANTS ANNUAL 7 
NEW WARRIORS ANNUAL 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 15 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 6 

X-FACTOR 65-68 


ALPHA FLIGHT 95-101 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 387-392 
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 24 (GATEWAY) 

INFINITY GAUNTLET 2 
INFINITY GAUNTLET 3 
SILVER SURFER 52 
Silver surfer 54 
INFINITY GAUNTLET 4 

UNCANNY X-MEN 278, 279; X-FACTOR 69; UNCANNY X-MEN 280; X-FACTOR 70 
SHIELD 25-29 
AVENGERS 332-333 (WOLVERINE) 
SHE-HULK 29 
SHE-HULK 30 
SHE-HULK 34 
SHE-HULK 35 

SPM 8-12 
Namor 21-25 
Wolverine 44 (Flashback) 
WOLVERINE 38-44 




WOLVERINE 45-47 
WOLVERINE: BLOODY CHOICES 
DAMAGE CONTROL (V.3) 3 (QUICKSILVER) 
DAMAGE CONTROL (V.3) 4 
AVENGERS 334-339 (BEAST in 335-339) 

DEATHLOK 2-5 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 89 (SELENE STORY) 

X-FACTOR 71 
X-FACTOR 72 
X-FACTOR 73 
AVENGERS 343 (QUICKSILVER) 

X-MEN 1 (A-E) 
X-MEN 2 
X-MEN 3 

HELLS ANGEL 1-5 (X-MEN) 
DEATHS HEAD II (LIM. SERIES) 4 (FUTURE WOLVERINE) 
WARHEADS 1 (WOLVERINE) 


X-FORCE 1-3 
SPM 16 
X-FORCE 4 
Marvel Comics Presents 90-97 (Cable/Ghost Rider Story only) 
X-FORCE 5 
SHIELD 33-35 

NOMAD VOL.2 #2 (Val Cooper) 

DAREDEVIL 307 
Nomad Vol.2 #4 (Deadpool, Tolliver) 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL 45 
NOMAD VOL.2 #5 
DAREDEVIL 308 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL 46 
DARDEVIL 309 
NOMAD VOL.2 #6 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL 47 


SPIDER-MAN 15 
WONDER MAN 5-6 (BEAST) 


NEW WARRIORS 20 (MARIKO) 

AVENGERS 344 

Operation Galactic Storm: 
CAP AMERICA 398 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 80 
QUASAR 32 
WONDER MAN 7 
AVENGERS 345 
IRON MAN 278 
THOR 445 
CAP AMERICA 399 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 81 
QUASAR 33 
WONDER MAN 8 
AVENGERS 346 
IRON MAN 279 
THOR 446 
CAP AMERICA 400 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 82 
QUASAR 34 
WONDER MAN 9 
AVENGERS 347 


X-FACTOR 74 
X-FACTOR 75 
HULK 390-391; X-FACTOR 76; HULK 392 

ALPHA FLIGHT 102-106 
ALPHA FLIGHT 107 (X-FACTOR) 


MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 85-92 (WOLVERINE STORY) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 89 (X-MEN/MOJO) 
QUASAR 28 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 93-98 (WOLVERINE STORY) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 99 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 100 
HEARTS OF DARKNESS (WOLVERINE) 
WOLVERINE AND THE PUNISHER 1-3 
WOLVERINE 54 (SHATTERSTAR) (HAS TO BE BEFORE 48-50 DUE TO BROWN COSTUME) 
WOLVERINE 48-50 

EXCALIBUR: THE POSSESSION 
EXCALIBUR: AIR APPARENT 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 174 (TECHNET) 

KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON 1-13 
KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON 18 

EXCALIBUR 42-52 
EXCALIBUR 53 
SPIDER-MAN 25 (CAPTAIN BRITAIN AND MEGGAN) 
EXCALIBUR 54 

X-MEN 4-7 
UNCANNY X-MEN 281-286 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 101-108 (NIGHTCRAWLER/WOLVERINE) 
WOLVERINE 51-53 
WOLVERINE 55-57 
WOLVERINE 60-64 
WOLVERINE 65 
WOLVERINE 58-59 

X-MEN ANNUAL 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN 287-288 

X-MEN 8 
GHOST RIDER 26 
X-MEN 9 
GHOST RIDER 27 

GHOST RIDER 29 (Wolverine) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 109-116 

AVENEGRS WEST COAST 83 (QUICKSILVER) 
X-FACTOR 77 
X-FACTOR 78 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 402-407 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 408 (FIRST STORY) (WOLFSBANE) 

DOCTOR STRANGE (3rd SERIES) #41 (WOLVERINE) 

UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 16 STORY 3 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 16 STORY 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 16 STORY 2 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 7 STORY 1, 2, 3 

WOLVERINE: EVILUTION (BOOM-BOOM) 
New warriors 19 (Gideon) 
NIGHT THRASHER 3 (GIDEON) 
X-FORCE 6-10 

WARHEADS 4 (X-FORCE) 
WARHEADS 5 (X-FORCE) 


X-FORCE 11 
X-FORCE ANNUAL 1 STORY 3 
X-FORCE ANNUAL 1 STORY 2 (TAKI, ARTIE, LEECH ONLY) 

X-FORCE 12-15 
UNCANNY X-MEN 289, 290 
X-MEN 10-11 

DARKHAWK 19,20 (BROTHERHOOD OF EVIL MUTANTS) 

DEATHLOK (V.2) 11 (MOSES MAGNUM) 

ALPHA FLIGHT 108 
NICK FURY, AGENT OF SHIELD 32 (wild child) 
ALPHA FLIGHT 109 

INFINITY WAR 1 
FANTASTIC FOUR 367 
INFINITY WAR 2 
MOON KNIGHT 41 
MOON KNIGHT 43 
WONDER MAN 13 
QUASAR 38 
Warlock and the Infinity Watch 8 
INFINITY WAR 3 
Doctor strange vol.3 #44 (JUGGERANUT) 
Alpha flight 110 
NEW WARRIORS 27 
FANTASTIC FOUR 368 
INFINITY WAR 4 
QUASAR 39 
SLEEPWALKER 17 (BROTHERHOOD OF EVIL MUTANTS, XAVIER BTS) 
SLEEPWALKER 18 
FANTASTIC FOUR 369 
ALPHA FLIGHT 111 
WONDER MAN 14 
MOON KNIGHT 44 
INFINITY WAR 5 
DOCOTR STRANGE 46 
QUASAR 40 
WONDER MAN 15 
INFINITY WAR 6 
FANTASTIC FOUR 370 
ALPHA FLIGHT 112 

DEATHLOK (V.2) 22 (MOSES MAGNUM) 
DEATHLOK (V.2) 23 (MOSES MAGNUM) 
DEATHLOK (V.2) 24 (MOSES MAGNUM) 
DEATHLOK (V.2) 25 (MOSES MAGNUM) 


ALPHA FLIGHT 113-120 

AVENGERS WEST COAST 84 (Val Flashbacks) 

AVENGERS WEST COAST 87 (WOLVERINE) 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 88 (WOLVERINE) 

MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 117-122 

NEW WARRIORS 29 (VAL COOPER) 
NEW WARRIORS 30 (VAL COOPER) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 408 (THIRD STORY)(QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS 350 
AVENGERS 351 
UNCANNY X-MEN 291-293 
X-MEN 12-13 
EXCALIBUR VS. THE X-MEN SPECIAL 
DARK ANGEL 6 (EXCALIBUR) 
DARK ANGEL 7 (PSYLOCKE) 
DARK ANGEL 8 (PSYLOCKE) 
EXCALIBUR 55-56 
EXCALIBUR 57-58 
EXCALIBUR 59-60 


DEATHLOK (V.2) 22 (MOSES MAGNUM) 
DEATHLOK (V.2) 23 (MOSES MAGNUM) 
DEATHLOK (V.2) 24 (MOSES MAGNUM) 
DEATHLOK (V.2) 25 (MOSES MAGNUM) 


DEATHS HEAD II (V.2) 1 (X-MEN) 
DEATHS HEAD II (V.2) 2 (X-MEN) 
DEATHS HEAD II (V.2) 3 (X-MEN) 
DEATHS HEAD II (V.2) 4 (X-MEN) 

CODENAME: GENETIX 1 (WOLVERINE) 
CODENAME: GENETIX 2 (WOLVERINE) 
CODENAME: GENETIX 3 (WOLVERINE) 
CODENAME: GENETIX 4 (WOLVERINE) 

BATTLETIDE 1 (WOLVERINE, PSYLOCKE) 
BATTLETIDE 2 (WOLVERINE, PSYLOCKE, SABRETOOTH) 
BATTLETIDE 3 (WOLVERINE, PSYLOCKE, SABRETOOTH) 
BATTLETIDE 4 (WOLVERINE, PSYLOCKE, SABRETOOTH) 

WARHEADS 8 (X-MEN) 
WARHEADS 9 (X-MEN) 
MOTORMOUTH & KILLPOWER 6 (CABLE) 
MOTORMOUTH & KILLPOWER 7 (CABLE) 
MOTORMOUTH & KILLPOWER 8 (CABLE) 
MOTORMOUTH & KILLPOWER 9 (CABLE) 

DARK ANGEL 9 (X-MEN) 
DARK ANGEL 10 (X-MEN) 

MYS-TECH WARS 1 (X-MEN) 
MYS-TECH WARS 2 (X-MEN, X-FACTOR) 
MYS-TECH WARS 3 (X-MEN, EXCALIBUR) 
MYS-TECH WARS 4 (X-MEN, X-FACTOR) 

DARK ANGEL 11 (X-MEN) 
DARK ANGEL 12 (X-MEN) 


SUPER-SOLDIERS 1 (NO X-CHAR) 
SUPER-SOLDIERS 6 (NO X-CHAR) 
SUPER-SOLDIERS 7 (X-MEN FB) 

DIE CUT 1 (BEAST) 
DIE CUT 2 (BEAST) 
BLACK AXE 2 (SUNFIRE) 

SHADOW RIDERS 1-4 (CABLE) 

PLASMER 1(CAPTAIN BRITAIN) 
PLASMER 2(CAPTAIN BRITAIN) 
PLASMER 3 (CAPTAIN BRITAIN) 
PLASMER 4 (CAPTAIN BRITAIN) 

INCOMPLETE DEATHS HEAD II #11 (?) 
INCOMPLETE DEATHS HEAD II #12 (?) 


CABLE LIMITED SERIES 1, 2 
X-FACTOR 79, 80, 81 
X-FACTOR 82, 83 

X-CUTIONERS SONG: 
UNCANNY X-MEN 294; X-FACTOR 84; X-MEN 14; X-FORCE 16 
UNCANNY X-MEN 295; X-FACTOR 85; X-MEN 15; X-FORCE 17 
UNCANNY X-MEN 296; X-FACTOR 86; X-MEN 16; X-FORCE 18 

UNCANNY X-MEN 297 
STRYFES STRIKE FILE 1 
AVENGERS 357 (CORTEZ) 
SECRET DEFENDERS 1-3 

HULK 402 (JUGGERNAUT) 
HULK 403 (JUGGERNAUT) 
HULK 404 (JUGGERNAUT) 


FANTASTIC FOUR 374 (WOLVERINE) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESNTS 122-130 (WOLVERINE STORY) 

WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 98 (VANISHER) 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 99 (VANISHER) 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 100 (VANISHER) 
SHE-HULK (VOL.2) 59 (VANISHER) 

PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER MAN 197 
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER MAN 198 
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER MAN 199 

WOLVERINE 66-68 
X-MEN 17-19 
New Warriors 31 
X-FORCE 19 
X-FACTOR 87-91 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 8 

SILVER SURFER 79 
SILVER SURFER 81 
SILVER SURFER 82 


SILVER SURFER ANNUAL 6 (No X-Characters) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 131 (WOLVERINE, TYGER TYGER) 
WOLVERINE: INNER FURY 
TERROR INC. 9 
TERROR INC. 10 
ALPHA FLIGHT 121 (X-MEN) 
SECRET DEFENDERS 11 (NORTHSTAR) 
DEATH METAL 1 (ALPHA FLIGHT) 
DEATH METAL 2 (ALPHA FLIGHT) 
DEATH METAL VS. GENETIX 1 (ALPHA FLIGHT) 
DEATHS HEAD II GOLD #1 (XAVIER) 
SCARLET WITCH 1-4 
SPIDER-WOMAN VOL.2 #2 (IMPORTANT VALERIE COOPER FB) 
NEW WARRIORS 32 (ARCHANGEL) 
NEW WARRIORS 33 (ARCHANGEL) 
NEW WARRIORS 34 (ARCHANGEL) 


INFINITY CRUSADE 1 
ALPHA FLIGHT 122 
THOR 464 
INFINITY CRUSADE 2 
DR. STRANGE (V.3) 55 
ALPHA FLIGHT 123 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 104 
DARKHAWK 30 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 105 
INFINITY CRUSADE 3 
ALPHA FLIGHT 124 
INFINITY CRUSADE 4 
INFINITY CRUSADE 5 
SILVER SURFER (V.3) 85 
ALPHA FLIGHT 125 
ALPHALIGHT 126 
ALPHA FLIGHT 127 
WEB OF SPIDER-MAN 106 
INFINITY CRUSADE 6 
ALPHA FLIGHT 128-130 
NORTHSTAR 1-4 

HULK 415 (Starjammers) 
HULK 416 (Starjammers) 

UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 17 (2ND STORY) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 298-300 
EXCALIBUR 61-65 
EXCALIBUR 66 PAGES 1-11 
EXCALIBUR ANNUAL 1 
EXCALIBUR 66 PAGES 12-22 
EXCALIBUR 67 
EXCALIBUR 68-70 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 1 
X-MEN 20-22 
WOLVERINE 69-71 
X-MEN 23 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 17 (1st story) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 301 
UNCANNY X-MEN 302 
UNCANNY X-MEN 303 
WOLVERINE 72-74 
PUNISHER WAR ZONE 19 (WOLVERINE) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 132-136 (WOLVERINE, CYBER) 
WOLVERINE: KILLING 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 137-142 (WOLVERINE) 
WOLVERINE & NICK FURY: SCORPIO RISING 

X-FACTOR 92 
Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD 46 
X-FORCE 20 
X-FORCE 21 
X-FORCE 22 
X-FORCE 23 
X-FORCE 24 
CABLE 1 
CABLE 2 
CABLE 3 
CABLE 4 
NOMAD (V.2) 20 
DEADPOOL: THE CIRCLE CHASE 1-4 
Thunderstrike 2 (Juggernaut) 
X-FORCE 25 
X-MEN 24 
X-FACTOR 93 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 2 (MAGNETO) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 304 
SPIDER-MAN AND X-FACTOR: SHADOWGAMES 1-3 
X-FACTOR 94 
UNCANNY X-MEN 305 
Uncanny x-men 306 
SABRETOOTH LIMITED SERIES 1-4 

DARKHOLD 3 (SABRETOOTH) 
DARKHOLD 4 (SABRETOOTH) 
SPIDER-MAN, PUNISHER, SABRETOOTH: Designer genes 

GAMBIT LIMITED SERIES 1-4 
X-MEN 25 
WOLVERINE 75 
X-MEN ANNUAL 2 
X-FORCE 26, ANNUAL. 2 
EXCALIBUR 71 

AVENGERS 363 (LILANDRA) 

Avengers 367 (Cortez, acolytes) 

BLOODTIES: 
AVENGERS 368 
X-MEN 26 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 101 
UNCANNY X-MEN 307 
AVENGERS 369 

VENOM: MADNESS 1 (JUGGERNAUT) 
VENOM: MADNESS 2 (JUGGERNAUT) 
VENOM: MADNESS 3 (JUGGERNAUT) 


X-FORCE 27 
X-Force 28 
CABLE 5 
X-FORCE 29-30 
X-FACTOR 95-100 
CABLE 6-8 
X-FORCE 31 
X-Men UNLIMITED 3 
UNCANNY X-MEN 308 
X-MEN 27,28 
UNCANNY X-MEN 309 
Excalibur 72-74 


NIGHT THRASHER VOL.2 #3 (TYGER TYGER) 
NIGHT THRASHER VOL.2 #4 (TYGER TYGER) 


NEW WARRIORS 42 (GLADIATOR) 
NOVA VOL.2 #1 (GLADIATOR) 
STARBLAST 1 
QUASAR 54 
STARBLAST 2 
QUASAR 55 
STARBLAST 3 
QUASAR 56 
STARBLAST 4 

New Warriors 44 
X-MEN 29 

CHILDSPLAY: 
X-FORCE 32 
New Warriors 45 
X-FORCE 33 
New Warriors 46 
X-FORCE 34 

Cable 9-11 
UNCANNY X-MEN 310 
X-Men: The Wedding Album (2nd part shows Wedding reception + overlaps with the wedding) 
What IF? (2nd series) 60 (parts overlap with the wedding) 
X-Men 30 
Excalibur 75 
X-Men: Phoenix 1-3 (Rachel) 
ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS AND PHOENIX 1-4 
X-Men Unlimited 4 
X-FACTOR 101 
X-FACTOR 102 (Page 1 through Page 22 Panel 1) 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 9 
X-FACTOR 102 (Page 22 Panel 2 through Page 23) 
SPIDER MAN: THE MUTANT AGENDA 1-3 
X-MEN 31 
X-MEN 32 
Uncanny X-Men 311 
UNCANNY X-MEN 312 
UNCANNY X-MEN 313 
UNCANNY X-MEN 314 
WOLVERINE 76-84 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 150-151 (Wolverine) 
X-Men Unlimited 5 
Excalibur 76 
EXCALIBUR 77 
Cable 12-14 
X-Men 33 
X-Men 34 

Spider-Man 43 (Shinobi Shaw) 
Night Thrasher 20 (Shinobi Shaw) 
DAREDEVIL 330 (GAMBIT) 
X-FACTOR 103-105 
Uncanny X-Men 315 
AVENGERS 377 (QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS 378 
AVENGERS 380-382 (ACOLYTES) 

X-Force 35,36,37 
CABLE 15 
Doctor Strange (1990s series) 69 (POLARIS + FORGE + Xavier) 
X-Men Annual 18 (Second Story) (Bishop & Jubilee) 
X-Men Annual 18 
EXCALIBUR 78 
EXCALIBUR 79 
EXCALIBUR 80 
EXCALIBUR 81 
X-MEN 35 
SILVER SABLE 23 (DEADPOOL) 
Deadpool (Second Limited Series 1994) 1-4 
X-Men Annual 3 Second Story (Banshee) 

--------------------------------------------PHALANX COVENANT------------------------------- 
UNCANNY X-MEN 316 
X-MEN 36 
UNCANNY X-MEN 317 
X-MEN 37 
X-FACTOR 106 
X-Force 38 
EXCALIBUR 82 
WOLVERINE 85 
CABLE 16 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 


Blaze 4-6 (Warpath) 
X-Force 39 
X-FORCE ANNUAL 3 (BOTH STORIES) 
CABLE 17-19 

Ghost Rider 57 
Ghost Rider, Wolverine, Punisher: The Dark Design 
WOLVERINE 86 (no wolverine) 
SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED 6 (CYCLOPS CAMEO) 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 6 
UNCANNY X-MEN 318 
SECRET DEFENDERS 18, 19 (ARCHANGEL, ICEMAN, PROF. X) 
X-MEN ANNUAL 3 (First Story) 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 7 
BISHOP LIMITED SERIES 1-4 
X-Men Ashcan 
EXCALIBUR ANNUAL 2 (ALL 3 STORIES) 
EXCALIBUR 83-85 
Generation X Ashcan 
Generation X Collectors Preview 
GENERATION X 1-3 
X-MEN 38 
ROGUE 1-4 

X-FORCE 40-41 
X-FORCE 42 

UNCANNY X-MEN 319 
MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 1994 (1ST STORY) 
MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 1994 (6TH STORY) 
FORCE WORKS 10 (2ND STORY) (BEAST) 

X-Men 39 Page 14 
ROGUE 1 
X-MEN 39 Pages 1-13, 15-end 
ROGUE 2 
ROGUE 3 
ROGUE 4 

X-FORCE 40-41 
X-FORCE 42 

WOLVERINE 87 
WOLVERINE 88 
FANTASTIC FOUR 394 (WOLVERINE BTS) 
FANTASTIC FOUR 395 (WOLVERINE) 

GENERATION X 4 
X-FACTOR 107 
X-FACTOR 108 
X-FACTOR 109 

NAMOR 54 (TRISH) 
NAMOR 56 (TRISH) 

WOLVERINE 89 

LEGIONQUEST: 
UNCANNY X-MEN 320 
X-MEN 40 

X-FORCE 43 
WOLVERINE 90 
EXCALIBUR 86 
X-FACTOR 110 
X-FACTOR 111 

UNCANNY X-MEN 321 
CABLE 20 
X-MEN 41 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Age of Apocalypse: 
X-Men Ashcan (Age of Apocalypse) 
X-Men Collectors Preview 
X-MEN CHRONICLES 1 
TALES FROM THE AGE OF APOCALYPSE: SINISTER BLOODLINES 
TALES FROM THE AGE OF APOCALYPSE: BY THE LIGHT 
X-MEN CHRONICLES 2 
(X-man 96) 
X-MAN MINUS ONE 
BLINK 1-4 
X-MEN ALPHA 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 1 
WEAPON X 1 
FACTOR X 1 
X-CALIBRE 1 
X-MAN 1 
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 1 
GENERATION NEXT 1 
AMAZING X-MEN 1 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 2 
AMAZING X-MEN 2 
WEAPON X 2 
FACTOR X 2 
X-CALIBRE 2 
X-MAN 2 
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 2 
GENERATION NEXT 2 
FACTOR X 3 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 3 
AMAZING X-MEN 3 
WEAPON X 3 
X-CALIBRE 3 
X-MAN 3 
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 3 
GENERATION NEXT 3 
X UNIVERSE 1 
X UNIVERSE 2 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 4 
X-CALIBRE 4 
AGE OF APOCALYPSE: THE CHOSEN 1 
X-MAN 4 
FACTOR X 4 
GAMBIT AND THE X-TERNALS 4 
GENERATION NEXT 4 
WEAPON X 4 
AMAZING X-MEN 4 
X-MEN OMEGA 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

MARVEL RIOT 1 (AOA PARODY BOOK) 

VENOM:SINNER TAKES ALL 1 (TRISH) 
VENOM:SINNER TAKES ALL 4 (TRISH) 
VENOM:SINNER TAKES ALL 5 (TRISH) 

X-MEN PRIME 
X-FACTOR 112 
X-FACTOR 113 
X-MAN 5 
UNCANNY X-MEN 322 
X-MEN 42 
X-MEN 43 
X-MEN 44 
CABLE 21 
X-MAN 6 
X-MAN 7 


EXCALIBUR 87 
X-FORCE 44 
CABLE 22 
WOLVERINE 91 
WOLVERINE ANNUAL '95 
X-FORCE 45 
X-FORCE 46 
X-FORCE 47 
GENERATION X 5 
GENERATION X 6 
UNCANNY X-MEN 323 
UNCANNY X-MEN 324 

DC Vs. Marvel 1 
DC Vs. Marvel 2 
DC Vs. Marvel 3 

Generation Hex 1 
Super Soldier Man of War 1 
Super Soldier 1 
The Magnetic Men featuring Magneto 1 
Magneto and the Magnetic Men 1 
X-Patrol 1 
The Exciting X-Patrol 1 
JLX 1 
Bullets and Braclets 1 
Amazon 1 
JLX Unleashed 1 
Doctor Strangefate 1 
Speed Demon 1 
Assassins 1 
Legends of the Dark Claw 1 
Bat-Thing 1 
Dark Claw Adventures 1 
Thorion of the New Asgods 1 
Iron Lantern 1 
Spider-Boy 1 
Spider-Boy Team-Up 1 
Challengers of the Fantastic 1 
Bruce Wayne Agent of SHIELD 1 
Lobo, the Duck 1 

DC Vs. Marvel 4 


VENOM: ALONG CAME A SPIDER 1-3 (TRISH TILBY) 
VENOM: THE HUNTED 1 (TRISH TILBY) 
WOLVERINE 92 
WOLVERINE/GAMBIT: VICTIMS LIMITED SERIES 1-4 
HULK 434 (wolverine) 
DAREDEVIL 352 

X-MEN ANNUAL '95 (First Story) 

AVENGERS: THE CROSSING (BEAST) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 325 
X-MEN 45 


UNCANNY X-MEN 326 
GENERATION X 7 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 8 
X-Men 95 (Second Story Flashback) 
EXCALIBUR 88 
X-men 95 (Second Story) 
EXCALIBUR 89 
EXCALIBUR 90 
WOLVERINE: KNIGHT OF TERRA 

AVENGERS 389 (LILANDRA) 
STARJAMMERS LIMITED SERIES 1-4 
X-MEN: BOOKS OF ASKANI 
ASKANI'SON LIMITED SERIES 1-4 
CABLE 23 
CABLE 24 
CABLE 25 
X-MAN 8 
X-MAN 9 
X-MAN 10 
CABLE 26 
CABLE 27 
CABLE 28 
X-FACTOR 114 
X-FACTOR 115 
WOLVERINE 93 

BLACK SEPTEMBER INFINITY (Malibu) 
NIGHTMAN VS. WOLVERINE 0 (Malibu) 
NIGHTMAN / GAMBIT 1-3 (Malibu) 
EXILES INFINITY (Malibu) 
EXILES 1 (Malibu) 
EXILES VS. X-MEN 0 (Malibu) 
EXILES 2 (MALIBU) (First story) 

PRIME 2 (Malibu, Phoenix Resurrection) 
Night Man 2 (Malibu, Phoenix Resurrection) 
Siren 2 (Malibu, Phoenix Resurrection) 
Mantra 2 (Malibu, Phoenix Resurrection) 
Exiles 2 (Second Story) (Malibu, Phoenix Resurrection) 
Rune 2 (Malibu, Phoenix Resurrection) 
Ultraforce 2 (Malibu, Phoenix Resurrection) 

THE PHOENIX RESURRECTION GENESIS 1 (Malibu) 
THE PHOENIX RESURRECTION REVELATIONS 1 (Malibu) 
THE PHOENIX RESURRECTION: AFTERMATH 1 (Malibu) 

THE PHOENIX RESURRECTION 0 (Malibu) (Jubilee & Gateway epilogue) 

EXILES 3-5 (Malibu) 
EXILES 6-10 (Malibu) 
EXILES 11 (Malibu) 
ULTRAFORCE 12 (Malibu) 
ULTRAVERSE UNLIMITED 2 (Malibu) 

WOLVERINE 94 
GENERATION X 8 
GENERATION X 9 
WOLVERINE 95 
WOLVERINE 96 
Ghost Rider 67 (Wolverine & Gambit) 
Ghost Rider 68 (Wolverine & Gambit) 
X-MEN & CLAN DESTINE 1-2 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 9 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 95 
GENERATION X ANNUAL '95 
GENERATION X 10 
GENERATION X 11 
GENERATION X 1994 San Diego comic con exclusive 

EXCALIBUR 91 
EXCALIBUR 92 
EXCALIBUR 93 
EXCALIBUR 94 
X-MAN 11 
X-MAN 12 
EXCALIBUR 95 

X-FORCE 48 

Marvel Fanfare vol.2 #4 (Dazzler, Longshot, Mojo II, Spiral) 
Marvel Fanfare vol.2 #5 (Dazzler, Longshot, Mojo II, Spiral) 


X-MEN 46 
X-MEN 47 
UNCANNY X-MEN 327 (JOSEPH) 
SPIDER-MAN TEAM UP 1 (X-MEN) 
AGE OF INNOCENCE 1 (BEAST CAMEO) 
AVENGERS 398 (LILANDRA) 
SPIDER-MAN TEAM UP 5 (GAMBIT) 


X-FORCE AND CABLE ANNUAL 95 
X-FORCE AND CABLE ANNUAL 95 (SECOND STORY) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 328 
SABRETOOTH: IN THE RED ZONE 1 

X-FORCE 49 
X-FORCE 50 
X-FORCE 51 

X-MEN 48 
X-MEN 49 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 2 (X-Treme, Eric the red) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL 3 (X-Treme, Eric the red) 
X-FACTOR 116 
X-FACTOR 117 
X-FACTOR 118 
DOC SAMSON 1 
DOC SAMSON 2 
X-FACTOR 119 
DOC SAMSON 4 
X-FACTOR 120 
X-FACTOR 121 
X-FACTOR 122 
X-FACTOR 123 
PETER PARKER, THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN 237 (GRAYDON CREED) 
X-FACTOR 124 
PUNISHER VOL.3 #7 (Bridge becomes head of SHIELD) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 329 
UNCANNY X-MEN 330 
ARCHANGEL 1 
CABLE 29 
X-MAN 13 
BLACK KNIGHT: EXODUS 
CABLE 30 
X-MAN 14 
CABLE 31 

X-Men: Brood: Day of Wrath 1 
X-Men: Brood: Day of Wrath 2 

X-MEN 50 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 10 
UNCANNY X-MEN 331 
X-FORCE 52 
X-FORCE 53 
X-FORCE 54 

WOLVERINE 97 
WOLVERINE 98 
WOLVERINE 99 
WOLVERINE 100 
CABLE 32 

FUTHER ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS & PHOENIX 1 
FUTHER ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS & PHOENIX 2 
FUTHER ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS & PHOENIX 3 
FUTHER ADVENTURES OF CYCLOPS & PHOENIX 4 
UNCANNY X-MEN 332 
WOLVERINE 101 
WOLVERINE 102 
WOLVERINE 102.5 (LONGSHOT, DAZZLER, MOJO II) 
WOLVERINE 103 

X-MEN 51 
X-MEN 52 

GENERATION X 12 
GENERATION X 13 
GENERATION X 14 
GENERATION X 15 
GENERATION X 16 
GENERATION X 17 


UNCANNY X-MEN 333 
X-FORCE 55 
X-FORCE 56 
STORM 1 
STORM 2 
STORM 3 
STORM 4 

EXCALIBUR 96 
EXCALIBUR 97 
EXCALIBUR 98 

GREEN GOBLIN 10 (ARCADE) 


CABLE 33 
X-MEN 53 
EXCALIBUR 99 
X-MAN 15 
X-MAN 16 
X-MAN 17 


ONSLAUGHT: 
UNCANNY X-MEN 334 
FANTASTIC FOUR 414 
X-MEN 54 
AVENGERS 400 
ONSLAUGHT: X-MEN 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN 335 
WOLVERINE 104 
EXCALIBUR 100 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 11 
AVENGERS 401 
FANTASTIC FOUR 415 
X-FACTOR 125 
X-FACTOR 126 
X-MEN 55 
EXCALIBUR 101 
CABLE 34 
HULK 444 
X-MAN 18 
X-FORCE 57 
UNCANNY X-MEN 336 
CABLE 35 
X-MAN 19 
X-FORCE 58 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 12 
GENERATION X 18 
GENERATION X 19 
AMAZING SPIDER MAN 415 
GREEN GOBLIN 12 
SPIDER-MAN 72 
THOR 502 
WOLVERINE 105 
FANTASTIC FOUR 416 
IRON MAN 332 
HULK 445 
AVENGERS 402 
X-MEN 56 
PUNISHER VOL. 3 #11 (BRIDGE) 
ONSLAUGHT: MARVEL UNIVERSE 1 
(X-MEN : THE ROAD TO ONSLAUGHT) 

JUGGERNAUT (ONESHOT) 
Second Story in X-Men Unlimited #13 (Juggernaut, Gomurr) 
MAVERICK (ONESHOT) 
CABLE 36 
GENERATION X 20 
UNCANNY X-MEN 337 
EXCALIBUR 102 
X-MEN 57 
ONSLAUGHT: EPILOGUE 

MAGNETO LS 1-4 
WOLVERINE 106 
ELEKTRA 1 
ELEKTRA 3 
WOLVERINE ANNUAL 96 (BOTH STORIES) 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 96 
XSE 1 
XSE 2 
BISHOP: XSE 1 
BISHOP: XSE 2 
BISHOP: XSE 3 
XSE 3 
XSE 4 

GENERATION X 21 (Beast) 

SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN 10 (Jean and Scott) 
SPIDER-MAN 73 
SPIDER-MAN 74 

Daredevil 355 (Pyro) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 338 
X-MEN 58 

EXCALIBUR 103 
PRYDE AND WISDOM 1 
PRYDE AND WISDOM 2 
PRYDE AND WISDOM 3 
MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 1996 (2ND STORY) (Kitty Pryde) 

MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 1996 (5TH STORY) (X-Men) 

VENOM: TOOTH AND CLAW (VS. WOLVERINE) 1 
VENOM: TOOTH AND CLAW (VS. WOLVERINE) 2 
VENOM: TOOTH AND CLAW (VS. WOLVERINE) 3 

UNCANNY X-MEN 339 
X-MEN 59 
UNCANNY X-MEN 340 
MARVEL VALENTINE SPECIAL 1 (5TH STORY) LAST PAGE ONLY (REST HAPPENS DURING CYKE & PHOENIX LS) 

GENERATION X 22 
GENERATION X 23 
GENERATION X UNDERGROUND SPECIAL 1 
GENERATION X ANNUAL 96 
HULK ANNUAL 97 (ARTIE, LEECH, FRANKLIN RICHARDS, others) (Second Story only) 

DC/MARVEL: ALL ACCESS 1 
DC/MARVEL: ALL ACCESS 2 
DC/MARVEL: ALL ACCESS 3 
DC/MARVEL: ALL ACCESS 4 

X-MEN ANNUAL 96 

YOUNGBLOOD/X-FORCE 
X-FORCE/YOUNGBLOOD 

X-FORCE AND CABLE ANNNUAL 96 (First Story) 
WOLVERINE  (WOLVERINE, CABLE) 
X-FORCE 59 
X-FORCE 60 
X-FORCE 61 


WOLVERINE 107 
WOLVERINE 108 
WOLVERINE 109 
WOLVERINE: DAYS OF FUTURE PAST 1-3 
WOLVERINE 110 
WOLVERINE: BLACK RIO 
MARVEL FANFARE VOL.2 #2 (WOLVERINE, VINDICATOR) 
MARVEL FANFARE VOL.2 #6 (SABRETOOTH, X-FACTOR) 
SABRETOOTH AND MYSTIQUE LIMITED SERIES 1-4 
PUNISHER vol.3 12-15 
X-FACTOR 127 
X-FACTOR 128 
X-FACTOR 129 
X-FACTOR 130 
PUNISHER 16 
PUNISHER 17 
X-MEN 60 
X-MEN 61 
Venom: On Trial 1 (Bastion) 
VENOM: ON TRIAL 2 
VENOM: ON TRIAL 3 
HULK 454 
HULK 455 
HULK 456 
HULK 457 


X-FORCE AND CABLE ANNNUAL 96 (Second Story) 
X-FORCE 62 
BEAST LS 1 
BEAST LS 2 
BEAST LS 3 

X-MEN UNLIMITED 13 (Silver Surfer/ Juggernaut) 
SILVER SURFER VOL.3 #123 
X-MEN ANNUAL 97 

X-MAN 20 
X-MAN 21 
X-MAN 22 
X-MAN 23 
X-MAN ANNUAL 96 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 420 
X-MAN 24 
X-MAN 25 

EXCALIBUR 104 
EXCALIBUR 105 
TALES OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE 
BUG 1 
CABLE 37 
CABLE 38 
CABLE 39 
CABLE 40 (Douglock, moira) 
EXCALIBUR 106 
CABLE 41 (Bishop, Storm) 
CABLE 42 (Storm) 

Iron Man Vol.2 #6 (Onslaught) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA VOL.2 #6 
CABLE 43 (Cyclops, Jean, Madelyne) 
CABLE 44 
DOMINO LS 1 
DOMINO LS 2 
DOMINO LS 3 

X-FACTOR 131 
X-FACTOR 132 
X-FACTOR 133 
X-FACTOR 134 
X-FACTOR 135 
STRONG GUY REBORN 1 

EXCALIBUR 107 
X-MAN 26 
EXCALIBUR 108 
EXCALIBUR 109 
EXCALIBUR 110 
X-MAN 27 
X-MAN 28 
X-MAN 29 
X-Man 30 (First few pages only) 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 425 

ELEKTRA 5 (FATALE) 
ELEKTRA 7 (FATALE) 

X-MEN UNLIMITED 14 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 97 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 15 (MAVERICK, Iceman, Wolverine, Cyclops, Beast) 

DEADPOOL 1 (REG SERIES) 
Deadpool 2-5 (Siryn) 
Deadpool 6-7 
DAREDEVIL/DEADPOOL ANNUAL 97 
DEADPOOL 8 
DEADPOOL 9 



WOLVERINE 111 
WOLVERINE 112 
WOLVERINE 113 
WOLVERINE 114 

X-FORCE & CABLE ANNUAL 97 
EXCALIBUR 111 
EXCALIBUR 112 
COLOSSUS ONE SHOT 
EXCALIBUR 113 
EXCALIBUR 114 (Pages 1-13) 
NEW MUTANTS: TRUTH OR DEATH 1-3 
X-FORCE 63 
X-FORCE 64 
X-FORCE 65 
X-FORCE 66 

GENERATION X ANNUAL '97 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 16 
GENERATION X 24 
Second Story in Generation X 27 (Cookin with Jubilee) 
GENERATION X 25 
DAYDREAMERS LIMITED SERIES 1-3 


SABRETOOTH: BACK TO NATURE 
X-FACTOR 136 
X-FACTOR 137 
X-FACTOR 138 
X-FACTOR 139 

IMPERIAL GUARD 1 (PAGES 1-12) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 341 
IMPERIAL GUARD 1 (PAGES 13-22) 
IMPERIAL GUARD 2 
IMPERIAL GUARD 3 
Hulk Annual 97 (Gladiator) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 342 
UNCANNY X-MEN 343 
UNCANNY X-MEN 344 
UNCANNY X-MEN 345 
GENERATION X 26 
X-FORCE 67 (Angel) 

GENERATION X 27 
CRIMSON DAWN LIMITED SEIRES 1-4 (Psylocke & Angel) 

X-MEN 62 
X-MEN 63 
X-MEN 64 
GENERATION X 28 (FIRST STORY) 
Generation X 28 (Second Story) 

X-MEN 65 
UNCANNY X-MEN 346 

UNCANNY X-MEN 347 
WOLVERINE 115 
X-FORCE 68 
X-MEN 66 
UNCANNY X-MEN 348 
WOLVERINE 116 
CABLE 45 
CABLE 46 
CABLE 47 
X-FORCE 69 
X-FORCE 70 
GENERATION X 29 
GENERATION X 30 
GENERATION X 31 
UNCANNY X-MEN 349 
X-MEN 67 
X-MEN 68 
UNCANY X-MEN 350 
WOLVERINE 117 
X-MAN 30 
X-MEN 69 
WOLVERINE 118 

UNLIMITED ACCESS 1 (MARVEL/DC) 
UNLIMITED ACCESS 2 (MARVEL/DC) 
UNLIMITED ACCESS 3 (MARVEL/DC) 
UNLIMITED ACCESS 4 (MARVEL/DC) 


SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN 18 (SPIDER-MANS IN THIS PERIOD MIGHT NEED TO BE MOVED AROUND A BIT) 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN 19 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN 20 

SPIDER-MAN 84 (Juggernaut) 
X-MEN 70 

X-MEN UNLIMITED 18 
Gambit 1/2 
GAMBIT (SECOND) LIMITED SERIES 1-4 

MARVEL TEAM-UP 1 (1990'S SERIES) (Skin, Husk, Chamber) 


X-MAN 31 
X-MAN 32 
X-MAN 33 
X-Man 97 
X-Man: All Saints Day 

DEADPOOL 10 
DEADPOOL 11 
BABYS FIRST DEADPOOL BOOK 1 
X-FORCE 71 
DEADPOOL 12 (WARPATH AND SIRYN) 
X-FORCE 72 
DEADPOOL 13 
X-FORCE 73 
X-FORCE 74 
DEADPOOL 14 
DEADPOOL 15 


CABLE 48 
CABLE 49 
CABLE 50 
CABLE 51 
CABLE 52 
CABLE 53 
CABLE 54 

JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY 513 (JEAN AND SCOTT, AND HANK) 
X-MEN 71 


DAREDEVIL 368 (Omega rEd) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 351 
DAREDEVIL 371 (X-MAN, Cecila) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 352 
ELEKTRA 10 (Wolverine) 

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 429 (X-man, Beast, Wolverine) 

X-MEN UNLIMITED 17 (Angel, Wolverine, Sabretooth, Sebastian Shaw) 

THUNDERBOLTS 6 
THUNDERBOLTS 8 

EXCALIBUR 114 (SECOND HALF) 
KITTY PRYDE: AGENT OF SHIELD LS 1-3 
THUNDERBOLTS 10 

WOLVERINE annual 97 

X-MEN 72 

ELEKTRA 14 (WOLVERINE) 
ELEKTRA 15 (YUKIO) 
VENOM: FINALE 1 (TRISH) 
VENOM: FINALE 2 (TRISH) 
ELEKTRA 19 (TRISH) 
SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED 22 (TRISH) 


WOLVERINE 119 
WOLVERINE 120 
WOLVERINE 121 
WOLVERINE 122 

X-FACTOR 140 
X-FACTOR 141 

X-FACTOR 142 
X-FACTOR 143 
X-FACTOR 144 
X-FACTOR 145 
X-FACTOR 146 
X-FACTOR 147 
X-FACTOR 148 

ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2 # 1-5 
MAVERICK 1(REGULAR SERIES) 
MAVERICK 2 
MAVERICK 3 (ALPHA FLIGHT) 
MAVERICK 4 (Wolverine) 
MAVERICK 5 
MAVERICK 6 (Sabretooth) 
MAVERICK 7 (Sabretooth) 
MAVERICK 8 
MAVERICK 9 
MAVERICK 10 
MAVERICK 11 
MAVERICK 12 

LONGSHOT ONE-SHOT 


GENERATION X 32 

GENERATION X 33 
EXCALIBUR 115 
GENERATION X 34 
GENERATION X 35 
GENERATION X 36 
GENERATION X 37 
GENERATION X 38 
GENERATION X 39 
GENERATION X 40 
GENERATION X 1/2 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 437 
Spider-Man 94 (Sebastian Shaw) 


QUICKSILVER 1 
QUICKSILVER 2 
QUICKSILVER 3 
HEROES FOR HIRE 8 
HEROES FOR HIRE 9 
HEROES FOR HIRE 10 (DEADPOOL) 
HEROES FOR HIRE 11 (DEADPOOL) 

IRON MAN VOL.3 #1 (ANGEL AND PSYLOCKE) 

CAPTAIN AMERICA VOL.3 #1 (DEATHSTRIKE) 
AVENGERS VOL.3 #1 
AVENGERS VOL.3 #2 
AVENGERS VOL.3 #3 
THUNDERBOLTS 11 (QUICKSILVER) 

THUNDERBOLTS 12 (QUICKSILVER) 
AVENGERS VOL.3 #4 

X-MAN 34 
X-MAN 35 
X-MAN 36 
X-MAN 37 
X-MAN 38 


X-FORCE 75 
X-FORCE 76 
PINT SIZED X-BABIES 

EXCALIBUR 116 
EXCALIBUR 117 
EXCALIBUR 118 
EXCALIBUR 119 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 19 


UNCANNY X-MEN 353 


CABLE & MACHINE MAN ANNUAL '98 
MACHINE MAN & BASTION ANNUAL '98 

UNCANNY X-MEN 354 


ALPHA FLIGHT VOL. 2 #6 
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL. 2 #7 
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2 #8 

UNCANNY X-MEN 355 
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2 #9 

GENERATION X 41 

CABLE 55 
CABLE 56 
X-FORCE 77 
X-FORCE 78 
X-FORCE 79 
X-FORCE 80 
X-FORCE 81 


QUICKSILVER 4 
QUICKSILVER 5 
QUICKSILVER 6 
X-MEN 73 
X-MEN 74 
EXCALIBUR 120 
X-MEN 75 
EXCALIBUR 121 
WOLVERINE 123 
WOLVERINE 124 
WOLVERINE 125 
WOLVERINE 126 
WOLVERINE 127 
WOLVERINE 128 
WOLVERINE 129 
WOLVERINE 130 

X-MEN 76 



UNCANNY X-MEN 356 
UNCANNY X-MEN 357 
THUNDERBOLTS 15 
IRON MAN VOL.3 #6 (Bridge) 
THUNDERBOLTS 16 

THUNDERBOLTS 18 

QUICKSILVER 7 
QUICKSILVER 8 
QUICKSILVER 9 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 7 (QUICKSILVER, SCARLET WITCH) 
EXCALIBUR 122 
EXCALIBUR 123 
X-MAN 39 
X-MAN 40 

X-FORCE 82 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 20 
X-MEN 77 
X-MEN 78 
X-MAN 41 
X-MAN & Hulk ANNUAL 1998 

X-FACTOR 149 

CEREBROS GUIDE TO THE X-MEN 


UNCANNY X-MEN 358 
TEAM X 2000 #1 
EXCALIBUR 124 
EXCALIBUR 125 
UNION JACK L.S. 1-3 
CABLE 57 
CABLE 58 
GENREATION X 42 
GENERATION X 43 
IRON MAN VOL.3 #7 
CAPTAIN AMERICA VOL.3 #8 
QUICKSILVER 10 
AVENGERS VOL.3 #7 
UNCANNY X-MEN 359 

FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #6 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #7 (PHOENIX) 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #8 
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2 #10-16 
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2/ Inhumans annual 1998 
SUNFIRE & BIG HERO 6 L.S. 1-3 
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2 # 17-18 

AVENGERS VOL.3 #8 (MOSES MAGNUM) 
AVENGERS VOL.3 #9 (MOSES MAGNUM) 




UNCANNY X-MEN & FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 1998 
X-MEN 79 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 21 
HEROES FOR HIRE 15 
QUICKSILVER 11 
HEROES FOR HIRE 16 
QUICKSILVER 12 
HEROES FOR HIRE & QUICKSILVER ANNUAL 1998 
QUICKSILVER 13 

HEROES FOR HIRE 17 
CABLE 59 
CABLE 60 
CABLE 61 
CABLE 62 
DEADPOOL 16 
DEADPOOL 17 
DEADPOOL & DEATH ANNUAL 1998 
DEADPOOL 18 
DEADPOOL 19 
DEADPOOL 20 
DEADPOOL TEAM-UP 1 
DEADPOOL 21 
DEADPOOL #0 
DEADPOOL 22 (CABLE) 
ENCYCLOPAEDIA DEADPOOLICA 1 
DEADPOOL 23 
DEADPOOL 24 
DEADPOOL 25 


MUTANT X 1-8 
MUTANT X ANNUAL 99 
MUTANT X 9-13 
MUTANT X ANNUAL 2000 
MUTANT X 14-28 
MUTANT X 29-31 
MUTANT X ANNUAL 2001 
MUTANT X 32 


X-FORCE 83 
X-FORCE 84 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #10 (Pressgang) 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #11 (val) 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #12 (Val) 

FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #13 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #14 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #15 
IRON MAN VOL.3 #14 
IRON MAN VOL.3 #15 

FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #16 (MARGALI) 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #20 (MARGALI) 


UNCANNY X-MEN 360 
X-MEN 80 
X-MEN 1/2 

GENERATION X 44 
GENERATION X 45 
GENERATION X 46 
GENERATION X 47 
X-FORCE 85 
X-FORCE & CHAMPIONS ANNUAL 1998 
X-MAN 42 
X-MAN 43 
X-MAN 44 
UNCANNY X-MEN 361 
X-MEN 81 
WOLVERINE 131 
HEROES FOR HIRE 18 (WOLVERINE) 
HEROES FOR HIRE 19 (WOLVERINE) 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 22 
AVENGERS VOL. 3 #10 (X-MEN) 
AVENGERS FOREVER 1 (BEAST FB) 
WOLVERINE 132 
X-MEN & Dr. Doom ANNUAL 1998 
UNCANNY X-MEN 362 
X-MEN 82 
UNCANNY X-MEN 363 
X-MEN 83 
UNCANNY X-MEN 364 
X-MEN 84 

X-MEN: LIBERATORS L.S 1-4 

AVENGERS 1999 ANNUAL 
AVENGERS VOL.3 #14 (BEAST) 

WOLVERINE 133 
WOLVERINE 134 
WOLVERINE 135 
WOLVERINE 136 
WOLVERINE 137 
WOLVERINE 138 
X-FORCE 86 
X-MAN 45 
X-MAN 46 
CABLE 63 
X-MAN 47 
WOLVERINE 139 
UNCANNY X-MEN 365 
CABLE 64 
GAMBIT 1 (REGULAR SERIES) 
ALPHA FLIGHT VOL.2 #19-20 

X-MEN 85 
X-MEN UNIVERSE 1 (1999 PREVIEW SPECTACULAR) 

GAMBIT 2 
GAMBIT 3 

X-MEN: THE MAGNETO WAR 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN 366 
X-MEN 86 
UNCANNY X-MEN 367 
X-MEN 87 

CABLE 65 
CABLE 66 
CABLE 67 
CABLE 68 
CABLE 69 
CABLE 70 
NEW ETERNALS (APOCALYPSE) 


GAMBIT 4 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 23 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN VOL.2 #3 (Iceman) 
PETER PARKER SPIDER MAN 3 (Iceman) 
PETER PARKER SPIDER MAN 4 (MARROW) 
GAMBIT 5 

THUNDERBOLTS 21 
THUNDERBOLTS 22 
THUNDERBOLTS 25 
THUNDERBOLTS 26 



X-FORCE 87 
X-FORCE 88 
X-FORCE 89 
X-FORCE 90 

GENERATION X 48 
GENERATION X VS. DRACULA ANNUAL 1998 
GENERATION X HOLIDAY SPECIAL 1 

SLINGERS 9 (NANNY AND ORPHAN-MAKER) 

GENERATION X 49 
X-MAN 48 
X-MAN 49 

GENERATION X 50 
GENERATION X 51 

X-MAN 50 
X-MAN 51 
X-MAN 52 


DEADPOOL 26 
DEADPOOL 27 (Kitty, Wolverine) 



UNCANY X-MEN 368 
X-MEN 88 
THUNDERBOLTS 27-30 (ANGEL) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 369 
MAGNETO REX 1-3 
X-MEN 89 
UNCANNY X-MEN 370 
X-MEN 90 
UNCANNY X-MEN 371 
X-MEN 91 
X-MEN ANNUAL 1999 


GENEREATION X 52 
WOLVERINE 140 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 24 

WOLVERINE/PUNISHER (MARVEL KNIGHTS) L.S. 1-4 

X-FORCE 91 
X-FORCE 92 
X-FORCE 93 
GENERATION X 53 
GENERATION X 54 
GENERATION X 55 
GENERATION X 56 


WOLVERINE 141 
WOLVERINE 142 
WOLVERINE 143 

GENERATION X 57 

GENERATION X 58 
GENERATION X ANNUAL 1999 

WOLVERINE 144 
HULK VOL.3 #7 
HULK VOL.3 #8 

X-FORCE 94 
X-FORCE 95 
X-Men Unlimited 24 (Second Story) 

X-FORCE ANNUAL 1999 
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 1999 
X-FORCE 96 
X-FORCE 97 
X-FORCE 98 
CABLE ANNUAL 1999 
CABLE 71 
GAMBIT 6 
GAMBIT 7 
GAMBIT ANNUAL 1999 

DEADPOOL 28 
DEADPOOL 29 
DEADPOOL 30-33 

CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS II 1-5 
UNCANNY X-MEN 372 
X-MAN 53 
X-MAN 54 
X-MAN 55 
X-MEN 92 

GAMBIT 8 
GAMBIT 9 

ASTONISHING XMEN (VOL.2) 1 
ASTONISHING XMEN(VOL.2) 2 
ASTONISHING XMEN (VOL.2) 3 



WARLOCK VOL.3 #1-4 

GALACTUS, THE DEVOURER 5-6 

WARLOCK VOL.3 #5-9 

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN2 #11 (BLOB) 

IRON MAN VOL.3 #21 
THOR VOL.3 #17 
IRON MAN VOL.3 #22 
PETER PARKER SPIDER MAN 11 
JUGGERNAUT: THE EIGHTH DAY 1 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #24 (XAVIER) 


X-51 #0 
X-51 #1 
X-51 #2 
X-51 #3 
X-51 #4 
X-51 #5 
X-51 #6 


BISHOP (REG. SERIES) 1 
BISHOP 2 
BISHOP 3 
UNCANNY X-MEN 373 
UNCANNY X-MEN 374 
X-MEN 93 
X-MEN 94 
UNCANNY X-MEN 375 
X-MEN 95 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 25 
NEW WARRIORS VOL.2 #0 (BOLT) 
NEW WARRIORS VOL.2 #1 (BOLT) 
NEW WARRIORS VOL.2 #2 (BOLT) 
GENERATION X 59 
NEW WARRIORS VOL.2 #3 (BOLT) 
NEW WARRIORS VOL.2 #4 (BOLT) 
NEW WARRIORS VOL.2 #5 (BOLT, GENERATION X) 
NEW WARRIORS VOL.2 #6 (BOLT) 
NEW WARRIORS VOL.2 #7 (BOLT) 

GAMBIT 10 
X-BABIES REBORN 1 
X-MAN 56 
X-MAN 57 
X-MAN 58 
WOLVERINE 145 
CABLE 72 
CABLE 73 
CABLE 74 
DEADPOOL 34 
DEADPOOL 35 
DEADPOOL 36 
DEADPOOL 37 
BISHOP 4 
BISHOP 5 
BISHOP 6 
BISHOP 7 
BISHOP 8 
UNCANNY X-MEN 376 
CABLE 75 
X-MAN 59 
X-MEN 96 
WOLVERINE 146 
WOLVERINE 147 
X-MAN 60 
UNCANY X-MEN 377 
X-MEN 1999 YEARBOOK 

CABLE 76 
X-MEN 97 

X-51 #7 
X-51 #8 

UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 1999 
UNCANNY X-MEN 378 
CABLE 77 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 26 
WOLVERINE 148 
X-MEN 98 

WOLVERINE ANNUAL 1999 (FIRST STORY) (Deadpool) 
WOLVERINE ANNUAL 1999 (SECOND STORY) 

X-MEN UNLIMITED 26 (SECOND STO

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Jan 2007 10:17 pm    
By Dhall

And because we hit the posting limit.... 


WOLVERINE ANNUAL 1999 (FIRST STORY) (Deadpool) 
WOLVERINE ANNUAL 1999 (SECOND STORY) 

X-MEN UNLIMITED 26 (SECOND STORY) (WOLVERINE) 

AVENGERS VOL.3 # 24 
AVENGERS VOL.3 # 25 

Inhumans vol.3 # 1 
Inhumans vol.3 # 2 (Quicksilver) 
Inhumans vol.3 # 3 (Imperial Guard) 
Inhumans vol.3 # 4 (Imperial Guard) 


GENERATION X 60 
GENERATION X 61 
GENERATION X 62 

X-FORCE 99 
Deadpool 38 (Siryn) 
X-FORCE 100 

X-MAN 61 
X-MAN 62 
GAMBIT 11 
GAMBIT 12 
GAMBIT 13 
GAMBIT 14 
X-MEN: THE HELLFIRE CLUB L.S. 1 
X-MEN: THE HELLFIRE CLUB L.S. 2 
X-MEN: THE HELLFIRE CLUB L.S. 3 
X-MEN: THE HELLFIRE CLUB L.S. 4 
GAMBIT 15 
FANTASTIC FOUR VOL.3 #25 (Magneto) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 379 
CABLE 78 
X-FORCE 101 
WOLVERINE 149 
NEW WARRIORS VOL.2 #8 (BOLT) 
NEW WARRIORS VOL.2 #9 (BOLT) 
NEW WARRIORS VOL.2 #10 (BOLT) 

X-MEN 99 
UNCANNY X-MEN 380 
AVENGERS TWO: WONDER MAN AND THE Beast 1-3 
MAGNETO: DARK SEDUCTION 1-4 

BISHOP 9 
BISHOP 10 
BISHOP 11 
BISHOP 12 
BISHOP 13 
BISHOP 14 

GENERATION X 67 
GENERATION X 68 
GENERATION X 69 
GENERATION X 70 

DEADPOOL 39 
DEADPOOL 40 
DEADPOOL 41 
DEADPOOL 42 
DEADPOOL 43 
DEADPOOL 44 
BLACK PANTHER 23 (DEADPOOL) 
DEADPOOL 45 

X-MEN: REVOLUTION: GENESIS EDITION 

CABLE 79 
CABLE 80 
CABLE 81 
CABLE 82 
CABLE 83 
CABLE 84 

THUNDERBOLTS 31 
THUNDERBOLTS 32 
THUNDERBOLTS 34 
THUNDERBOLTS 36 
THUNDERBOLTS 37 
THUNDERBOLTS annual 2000 


THUNDERBOLTS 48 
THUNDERBOLTS 49 
THUNDERBOLTS 50 
USAgernt 1 (Val Cooper) 
USAgernt 2 (Val Cooper) 
USAgernt 3 (Val Cooper) 


CITIZEN V AND THE V-BATTALION 1 (NO X-CHAR) 
CITIZEN V AND THE V-BATTALION 2 (SHADOW KING) 
CITIZEN V AND THE V-BATTALION 3 (NO X-CHAR) 


THUNDERBOLTS 53 

GENERATION X 63 
GENERATION X 64 
GENERATION X 65 
GENERATION X 66 

GAMBIT 16 
GAMBIT 17 
GAMBIT 18 
GAMBIT 19 
GAMBIT ANNUAL 2000 
GAMBIT 20 

X-MEN UNLIMITED 27 
X-MEN: BLACK SON 1-5 
X-MEN: MAGIK 1-4 
WOLVERINE 150 
WOLVERINE 151 
WOLVERINE 152 
WOLVERINE 153 
IRON FIST/WOLVERINE 1-4 

UNCANNY X-MEN 381 
UNCANNY X-MEN 382 
UNCANNY X-MEN 383 



X-FORCE 102 
X-FORCE: ROUGH CUT 
X-FORCE 103 
X-FORCE 104 
X-FORCE 105 



X-FORCE 106 
X-FORCE 107 
X-FORCE 108 
X-FORCE 109 

X-MEN 100 
X-MEN 101 
X-MEN 102 
X-MEN 103 
X-MEN: MILLENIAL VISIONS 2000 

X-MEN UNLIMITED 28 
UNCANNY X-MEN 384 
X-MEN 104 
UNCANNY X-MEN 385 
X-MEN FOREVER 1 
X-MEN FOREVER 2 
X-MEN FOREVER 3 
X-MEN FOREVER 4 
X-MEN FOREVER 5 
X-MEN FOREVER 6 
GAMBIT 21 
X-MEN 105 
X-MEN 106 
UNCANNY X-MEN 386 
X-Men Annual 2000 
GAMBIT 22 
X-MAN 67 
X-MAN 68 
X-MAN 69 
X-MAN 70 

X-MAN 63 
X-MAN 64 
X-MAN 65 
X-MAN 66 


Maximum Security: 
MAXIMUM SECURITY: DANGEROUS PLANET 
MAXIMUM SECURITY 1 
THOR 30 (no X-Char) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 387 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN2 #24 (NO X-CHAR) 
BLACK PANTHER 25 (STORM) 
IRON MAN 35 
CAPTAIN AMERICA3 #36 ( NO X-CHAR) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL5 #12 (NO X-CHAR) 
HULK3 #21 (NO X-CHAR) 
PETER PARKER SPIDER-MAN #24 (NO X-CHAR) 
THUNDERBOLTS 45 
BISHOP 15 
X-MEN 107 
MAXIMUM SECURITY 2 
MARVEL KNIGHTS 6 (NO X-CHAR) 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 29 
GAMBIT 23 
AVENGERS 35 
MAXIMUM SECURITY 3 


X-MAN 71 
X-MAN 72 
X-MAN 73 
X-MAN 74 
X-MAN 75 


CABLE 85 
CABLE 86 
WOLVERINE 154 
WOLVERINE 155 
WOLVERINE 156 
WOLVERINE 157 
WOLVERINE ANNUAL 2000 
SPIDER-MAN / MARROW ONE-SHOT 

HELLCAT 1-3 
X-FORCE 110 
X-FORCE 111 
X-FORCE 112 
X-FORCE 113 
BLACK PANTHER 26 (Storm) 
BLACK PANTHER 27 (Storm) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 388 
CABLE 87 
BISHOP 16 
X-MEN 108 


BLACK PANTHER 28 (MAGNETO) 
X-FORCE 114 
X-FORCE 115 
GENERATION X 71 
GENERATION X 72 
GENERATION X 73 
GENERATION X 74 
WOLVERINE 158 
GAMBIT 24 
UNCANNY X-MEN 389 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 33 

DEADPOOL 46 
DEADPOOL 47 
DEADPOOL 48 
DEADPOOL 49 


CABLE 88 
WOLVERINE 159 
WOLVERINE 160 
WOLVERINE 161 
EXCALIBUR (V.2) 1-4 


THE BROTHERHOOD 1 
THE BROTHERHOOD 2 
THE BROTHERHOOD 3 
THE BROTHERHOOD 4 
THE BROTHERHOOD 5 
THE BROTHERHOOD 6 
X-MEN 109 

X-MEN ANNUAL 2000 
X-MEN: THE SEARCH FOR CYCLOPS 1 
X-MEN: THE SEARCH FOR CYCLOPS 2 
X-MEN: THE SEARCH FOR CYCLOPS 3 
X-MEN: THE SEARCH FOR CYCLOPS 4 
CABLE 89 
CABLE 90 
CABLE 91 
CABLE 92 
CABLE 93 
CABLE 94 
CABLE 95 

THUNDERBOLTS 55 (OLD X-MEN FLASHBACK) 
THUNDERBOLTS 56 (BRIDGE) 

DEADPOOL 50 
DEADPOOL 51 
DEADPOOL 52 
DEADPOOL 53 
DEADPOOL 54 
DEADPOOL 55 
DEADPOOL 56 


GAMBIT 25 
X-Men: DECLASSIFIED 
UNCANNY X-MEN 390 
X-MEN 110 
UNCANNY X-MEN 391 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 32 

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN VOL.2 #36 (9/11) (CYCLOPS, WOLVERINE, STORM) 
FANTASTIC FOUR (V.3) 40 (TRISH TILBY) 


X-MEN UNLIMITED 30 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 31 



WOLVERINE 162 
WOLVERINE 163 
WOLVERINE 164 
WOLVERINE 165 
WOLVERINE 166 
WOLVERINE 167 
WOLVERINE 168 
WOLVERINE 169 

GAMBIT & BISHOP: SONS OF THE ATOM ALPHA 
GAMBIT & BISHOP: SONS OF THE ATOM 1-6 

SPIDER-MAN: SWEET CHARITY 
CAPTAIN AMERICA (V.3) 50 

CABLE 96 
CABLE 97 
CABLE 98 
CABLE 99 
CABLE 100 

X-TREME X-MEN 1 
X-TREME X-MEN 2 
X-TREME X-MEN 3 
X-TREME X-MEN 4 

X-MEN 111 
UNCANNY X-MEN 392 
X-MEN 112 
UNCANNY X-MEN 393 
X-MEN 113 

X-FORCE 116 
X-FORCE 117 
X-FORCE 118 
X-FORCE 119 
X-FORCE 120 

WEAPON X: AGENT ZERO 

DEADPPOOL 57: AGENT OF WEAPON X 1 
DEADPPOOL 58: AGENT OF WEAPON X 2 
DEADPPOOL 59: AGENT OF WEAPON X 3 
DEADPPOOL 60: AGENT OF WEAPON X 4 


DEADPOOL 61: FUNERAL FOR A FREAK 1 (Siryn, Wolverine) 
DEADPOOL 62: FUNERAL FOR A FREAK 2 
DEADPOOL 63: FUNERAL FOR A FREAK 3 
DEADPOOL 64: FUNERAL FOR A FREAK 4 


THUNDERBOLTS 57 
THUNDERBOLTS 58 


CYCLOPS 1 
CYCLOPS 2 
CYCLOPS 3 
CYCLOPS 4 

ICEMAN (VOL.2) 1 
ICEMAN (VOL.2) 2 
ICEMAN (VOL.2) 3 
ICEMAN (VOL.2) 4 


NIGHTCRAWLER (VOL.2) 1 
NIGHTCRAWLER (VOL.2) 2 
NIGHTCRAWLER (VOL.2) 3 
NIGHTCRAWLER (VOL.2) 4 


WOLVERINE ANNUAL 2001 
WOLVERINE 170 
WOLVERINE 171 
WOLVERINE 172 
WOLVERINE 173 
WOLVERINE 174 
WOLVERINE 175 
WOLVERINE 176 

ELEKTRA (V.2) 3 (SILVER SAMURAI) 
ELEKTRA (V.2) 4 (SILVER SAMURAI) 
ELEKTRA (V.2) 5 (SILVER SAMURAI) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 394 
GENERATION X 75 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 34 
IRON MAN (VOL. 3) 37 
IRON MAN (VOL.3) 38 
X-MEN 114 
X-MEN 115 
X-MEN 116 
UNCANNY X-MEN 395 
UNCANNY X-MEN 396 
UNCANNY X-MEN 397 
UNCANNY X-MEN 398 

EXILES 1 
EXILES 2 
EXILES 3 
EXILES 4 

EXILES 5 
EXILES 6 

DOMINO (VOL.2) 1 
DOMINO (VOL.2) 2 
DOMINO (VOL.2) 3 
DOMINO (VOL.2) 4 

X-MEN ANNUAL 2001 

X-TREME X=MEN: SAVAGE LAND 1 
X-TREME X-MEN: SAVAGE LAND 2 
X-TREME X-MEN: SAVAGE LAND 3 
X-TREME X-MEN: SAVAGE LAND 4 


X-MEN 117 
X-MEN 118 
X-MEN 119 
X-MEN 120 
X-MEN 121 

UNCANNY X-MEN 399 
UNCANNY X-MEN 400 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 2001 
X-MEN: MILLENIAL VISIONS 2001 


EXILES 7 
EXILES 11 
EXILES 41 
EXILES 42 


X-TREME X-MEN 5 
X-TREME X-MEN 6 
X-TREME X-MEN 7 
X-TREME X-MEN 8 

X-MEN 122 
UNCANNY X-MEN 401 
X-TREME X-MEN 9 
Punisher (V6) 16-17 (wolverine) 
X-MEN 123 
X-MEN 124 
X-MEN 125 
X-MEN 126 
THE ORDER 5 
THE ORDER 6 
UNCANNY X-MEN 402 
UNCANNY X-MEN 403 
UNCANNY X-MEN 404 
UNCANNY X-MEN 405 
UNCANNY X-MEN 406 
UNCANNY X-MEN 407 


CABLE 101 
CABLE 102 
CABLE 103 
CABLE 104 
CABLE 105 


X-FORCE 121 
X-FORCE 122 
X-FORCE 123 

THE BROTHERHOOD 7 
THE BROTHERHOOD 8 
THE BROTHERHOOD 9 


MARVEL: The End 1-6 


WOLVERINE/HULK 1 
WOLVERINE/HULK 2 
WOLVERINE/HULK 3 
WOLVERINE/HULK 4 


EXILES 8 
EXILES 9 
EXILES 10 
EXILES 16 

Sabretooth: mary shelley overdrive 1-4 

X-FACTOR (VOL.2) Book One ? 
X-FACTOR (vol.2) Book Two ? 
X-FACTOR (vol. 2) book Three ? 
X-FACTOR (vol.2) book Four ? 

BLACK PANTHER (V3) 41 (WOLVERINE) 
BLACK PANTHER (V3) 42 (WOLVERINE) 
BLACK PANTHER (V3) 43 (WOLVERINE) 
BLACK PANTHER (V3) 44 (WOLVERINE) 

WOLVERINE 177 
WOLVERINE 178 
WOLVERINE 179 
WOLVERINE 180 

X-TREME X-MEN ANNUAL 2001 
X-TREME X-MEN 10 
X-TREME X-MEN 11 
X-TREME X-MEN 12 
X-TREME X-MEN 13 
X-TREME X-MEN 14 
X-TREME X-MEN 15 
X-TREME X-MEN 16 
X-TREME X-MEN 17 

X-TREME X-MEN 18 
X-MEN 127 
UNCANNY X-MEN 408 
UNCANNY X-MEN 409 

DEADPOOL 65 
DEADPOOL 66 

DEADPOOL 67 (DAZZLER) 
DEADPOOL 68 
DEADPOOL 69 

CABLE 106 
CABLE 107 

X-MEN UNLIMITED 35 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 36 
X-FORCE 124 
X-FORCE 125 
X-FORCE 126 
X-FORCE 127 
X-FORCE 128 
X-FORCE 129 
Weapon X  
WEAPON X: SAURON 
WEAPON X: WILD CHILD 
WEAPON X: MARROW 
WEAPON X: KANE 


WOLVERINE 181 
WOLVERINE 182 
WOLVERINE 183 
WOLVERINE 184 
WOLVERINE 185 
WOLVERINE 186 


X-TREME X-MEN 19 
EXILES 12 
EXILES 13 
X-MEN 128 
X-MEN 129 
X-MEN 130 
X-TREME X-MEN: X-POSE 1 
X-TREME X-MEN: X-POSE 2 (Pages 1-18 only) 

X-MEN 131 
X-MEN 132 
X-MEN 133 
CHAMBER 1 
CHAMBER 2 
CHAMBER 3 
CHAMBER 4 (First Section) 
WOLVERINE: NETSUKE 1-4 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 39 (Second Story) 

X-STATIX 1 
X-STATIX 2 
X-STATIX 3 
X-STATIX 4 
X-STATIX 5 


UNCANNY X-MEN 410 
UNCANNY X-MEN 411 
UNCANNY X-MEN 412 
UNCANNY X-MEN 413 

UNCANNY X-MEN 414 

X-STATIX 6 
X-STATIX 7 
X-STATIX 8 

Deadline 1 (juggernaut) 
X-TREME X-MEN: X-POSE 2 (pages 19-23 only) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 415 
UNCANNY X-MEN 416 
UNCANNY X-MEN 417 
UNCANNY X-MEN 418 
UNCANNY X-MEN 419 
UNCANNY X-MEN 420 
CHAMBER 4 (Second Section) 

PUNISHER (V6) 33 (WOLVERINE) 
PUNISHER (V6) 34 (WOLVERINE) 
PUNISHER (V6) 35 (WOLVERINE) 
PUNISHER (V6) 36 (WOLVERINE) 
PUNISHER (V6) 37 (WOLVERINE) 

X-MEN UNLIMITED 45 
UNCANNY X-MEN 421 
UNCANNY X-MEN 422 


WOLVERINE 187 
WOLVERINE 188 
WOLVERINE 189 

SPIDER-MAN/WOLVERINE 1-4 

X-TREME X-MEN 20 
X-TREME X-MEN 21 
X-TREME X-MEN 22 
X-TREME X-MEN 23 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 37 ??? 

X-STATIX 9 
X-STATIX 10 

WEAPON X (V.2) 1 
WEAPON X (V.2) 2 
WEAPON X (V.2) 3 
WEAPON X (V.2) 4 
WEAPON X (V.2) 5 

SOLDIER X 1-7 
SOLDIER X 8 
SOLDIER X 9 
SOLDIER X 10 
SOLDIER X 11 
SOLDIER X 12 

WEAPON X (V.2) 6 
WEAPON X (V.2) 7 
WEAPON X (V.2) 8 
WEAPON X (V.2) 9 
WEAPON X (V.2) 10 
WEAPON X (V.2) 11 
WEAPON X (V.2) 12 
WEAPON X (V.2) 13 
WEAPON X (V.2) 22 
WEAPON X (V.2) 14 

WOLVERINE/DOOP 1 
WOLVERINE/DOOP 2 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 41 
X-STATIX 11 
X-STATIX 12 

WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA 1-4 

UNCANNY X-MEN 423 
UNCANNY X-MEN 424 
UNCANNY X-MEN 425 
UNCANNY X-MEN 426 

X-STATIX 13 
X-STATIX 14 
X-STATIX 15 
X-STATIX 16 
X-STATIX 17 
X-STATIX 18 


EXILES 14 
EXILES 15 
EXILES 17 
Exiles 18 
Exiles 19 
EXILES 20 
EXILES 21 
EXILES 22 
EXILES 23 
EXILES 24 
EXILES 25 
EXILES 26 
EXILES 27 


EXILES 28 
EXILES 29 
EXILES 30 

WOLVERINE: XISLE 1-5 
WOLVERINE: SNIKT! 1-5 
X-MEN 134 
UNCANNY X-MEN 427 




MUTIES 1 
MUTIES 2 
MUTIES 3 
MUTIES 4 
MUTIES 5 
MUTIES 6 


MEKANIX 1 
MEKANIX 2 
MEKANIX 3 
MEKANIX 4 
MEKANIX 5 
MEKANIX 6 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 38 


X-MEN UNLIMITED 40 




AGENT X 1 
AGENT X 2 
AGENT X 3 
AGENT X 4 
AGENT X 5 
AGENT X 6 
AGENT X 7 
AGENT X 8 
AGENT X 9 
AGENT X 10 
AGENT X 11 
AGENT X 12 
AGENT X 13 
AGENT X 14 
AGENT X 15 


X-MEN UNLIMITED 44 



X-MEN UNLIMITED 42 


X-MEN 135 
X-MEN 136 
X-MEN 137 
X-MEN 138 
X-TREME X-MEN 24 
X-MEN UNLIMITED 43 
UNCANNY X-MEN 429 
UNCANNY X-MEN 430 
UNCANNY X-MEN 431 
UNCANNY X-MEN 432 
UNCANNY X-MEN 433 
UNCANNY X-MEN 434 
X-MEN UNLIMITED (V.2) 1 
X-MEN UNLIMITED (V.2) 2 
X-MEN UNLIMITED (V.2) 2 (SECOND STORY) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 435 
UNCANNY X-MEN 436 

EXILES 31 
EXILES 32 
EXILES 33 
EXILES 34 

SENTINEL 1 
SENTINEL 2 
SENTINEL 3 
SENTINEL 4 
SENTINEL 5 
SENTINEL 6 
SENTINEL 7 
SENTINEL 8 
SENTINEL 9 
SENTINEL 10 
SENTINEL 11 
SENTINEL 12 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN (V.2) 57 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN (V.2) 58 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 500 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 1 
X-MEN 139 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 2 
X-MEN 140 
X-MEN 141 
TARGET PRESENTS READING TO THE RESCUE! (JEAN GREY) 

ALIAS 26 
ALIAS 28 (JEAN GREY) 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 3 

WOLVERINE (V.3) 1 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 2 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 3 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 4 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 5 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 6 

X-TREME X-MEN 25 
X-TREME X-MEN 26 
X-TREME X-MEN 27 
X-TREME X-MEN 28 
X-TREME X-MEN 29 
X-TREME X-MEN 30 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 4 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 5 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 6 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 7 
X-TREME X-MEN 31 
X-TREME X-MEN 32 
X-TREME X-MEN 33 
X-TREME X-MEN 34 
X-TREME X-MEN 35 
MYSTIQUE 1 
MYSTIQUE 2 
MYSTIQUE 3 
MYSTIQUE 4 
MYSTIQUE 5 
MYSTIQUE 6 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 8 

EXILES 35 
EXILES 36 
EXILES 37 

HULK/WOLVERINE: SIX HOURS 1-4 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 9 

UNCANNY X-MEN 437 
UNCANNY X-MEN 438 
UNCANNY X-MEN 439 
UNCANNY X-MEN 440 
UNCANNY X-MEN 441 

NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 10 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 11 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 12 

X-TREME X-MEN 36 
X-TREME X-MEN 37 
X-TREME X-MEN 38 
X-TREME X-MEN 39 

EXILES 38 
EXILES 39 
EXILES 40 

CABLE & DEADPOOL 1 
CABLE & DEADPOOL 2 

MYSTIQUE 7 
MYSTIQUE 8 
MYSTIQUE 9 
MYSTIQUE 10 
MYSTIQUE 11 
MYSTIQUE 12 
MYSTIQUE 13 
X-MEN 142 
X-MEN 143 
X-MEN 144 
X-MEN 145 
X-MEN 146 
X-TREME X-MEN 40 
X-TREME X-MEN 41 
X-TREME X-MEN 42 
X-TREME X-MEN 43 
X-TREME X-MEN 44 
X-TREME X-MEN 45 
X-MEN 147 
X-MEN 148 
X-MEN 149 
X-MEN 150 

CABLE & DEADPOOL 3 
CABLE & DEADPOOL 4 
CABLE & DEADPOOL 5 
CABLE & DEADPOOL 6 


UNCANNY X-MEN 442 
UNCANNY X-MEN 443 

EXCALIBUR (V.3) 1 
EXCALIBUR (V.3) 2 
EXCALIBUR (V.3) 3 
EXCALIBUR (V.3) 4 




X-TREME X-MEN 46 
NEW MUTANTS (V.2) 13 
X-MEN 151 
X-MEN 152 
X-MEN 153 
X-MEN 154 
X-MEN 155 
X-MEN 156 

WOLVERINE (V.3) 7 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 8 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 9 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 10 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 11 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 12 

WOLVERINE/PUNISHER 1 
WOLVERINE/PUNISHER 2 
WOLVERINE/PUNISHER 3 
WOLVERINE/PUNISHER 4 
WOLVERINE/PUNISHER 5 

EXILES 43 
EXILES 44 
EXILES 45 

MYSTIQUE 14 
MYSTIQUE 15 
MYSTIQUE 16 
MYSTIQUE 17 
MYSTIQUE 18 
MYSTIQUE 19 (XAVIER) 
MYSTIQUE 20 (XAVIER, CALLISTO) 
MYSTIQUE 21 


WEAPON X (V.2) 15 
X-MEN UNLIMITED (V.2) 3 (FIRST STORY) 
WEAPON X (V.2) 16 
WEAPON X (V.2) 17 
WEAPON X (V.2) 18 

X-STATIX 19 (XAVIER) 
X-STATIX 20 

X-STATIX 21 
X-STATIX 22 
X-STATIX 23 
X-STATIX 24 
X-STATIX 25 
X-STATIX 26 


EXILES 46 (X-MEN, BEAK, FF, NAMOR) 
EXILES 47 (BEAK, FF, NAMOR) 
EXILES 48 (X-MEN, BEAK,FF, NAMOR) 


AVENGERS (V.3) 77 (492) 
AVENGERS (V.3) 78 (493) 
AVENGERS (V.3) 79 (494) 
AVENGERS (V.3) 80 (495) 
AVENGERS (V.3) 81 (496) 

THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN 19 (CYCLOPS, NIGHTCRAWLER) 
THE SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN 20 (CYCLOPS, NIGHTCRAWLER) 

UNCANNY X-MEN 444 

X-MEN 157 
X-MEN 158 
X-MEN 159 
X-MEN 160 

ASTONISHING X-MEN 1: DIRECTORS CUT 
ASTONISHING X-MEN (V.3) 1 
AVENGERS 503 (BEAST, MAGNETO?) 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 2 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 3 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 4 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 5 
ASTONISHING X-MEN 6 


NEW X-MEN 1 
NEW X-MEN 2 
X-MEN UNLIMITED (V.2) 3 (SECOND STORY) 
NEW X-MEN 3 
NEW X-MEN 4 
NEW X-MEN 5 
NEW X-MEN 6 
ROGUE (V.3) 1 
ROGUE (V.3) 2 
ROGUE (V.3) 3 
ROGUE (V.3) 4 
ROGUE (V.3) 5 ?? 
ROGUE (V.3) 6 ?? 


UNCANNY X-MEN 445 (POSSIBLY) 
UNCANNY X-MEN 446 
UNCANNY X-MEN 447 
UNCANNY X-MEN 448 
UNCANNY X-MEN 449 
WEAPON X (V.2) 19 
WEAPON X (V.2) 20 
WEAPON X (V.2) 21 
WEAPON X (V.2) 23 
WEAPON X (V.2) 24 
WEAPON X (V.2) 25 
X-MEN UNLIMITED (V.2) 4 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 13 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 14 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 15 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 16 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 17 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 18 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 19 
X-MEN UNLIMITED (V.2) 5 
IDENTITY DISC 1 
IDENTITY DISC 2 
IDENTITY DISC 3 
IDENTITY DISC 4 
IDENTITY DISC 5 
WEAPON X (V.2) 26 
WEAPON X (V.2) 27 
WEAPON X (V.2) 28 
X-MEN 161 
X-MEN 162 
X-MEN 163 
X-MEN 164 

EXILES 49 
EXILES 50 
EXILES 51 
EXILES 52 
EXILES 53 
EXILES 54 

CABLE & DEADPOOL 7 
CABLE & DEADPOOL 8 
CABLE & DEADPOOL 9 
CABLE & DEADPOOL 10 ?? 

X-FORCE (V.2) 1 
X-FORCE (V.2) 2 
X-FORCE (V.2) 3 
X-FORCE (V.2) 4 

DISTRICT X 1 
DISTRICT X 2 
DISTRICT X 3 
DISTRICT X 4 
DISTRICT X 5 
DISTRICT X 6 


NYX 1 
NYX 2 
NYX 3 
NYX 4 
NYX 5 
NYX 6 
NYX 7 

UNCANNY X-MEN 450 
UNCANNY X-MEN 451 
UNCANNY X-MEN 452 

WOLVERINE (V.3) 20 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 21 
WOLVERINE (V.3) 22 

AVENGERS FINALE 

MARVEL TEAM-UP (V.2) 1 
MARVEL TEAM-UP (V.2) 2 

JUBILEE 1 
JUBILEE 2 
JUBILEE 3

				*	*	*

Thread 57

Posted: 16 Jan 2007 11:10 am    Post subject: Coming from Marvel in April
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Solicitations now up at Newsarama:- 

DARK TOWER: GUNSLINGER'S GUIDEBOOK: Apparently, a Dark Tower Handbook. There's also one for ANITA BLAKE. 

CIVIL WAR: THE CONFESSION, CIVIL WAR: FALLEN SON - WOLVERINE and CIVIL WAR: FALLEN SON - NEW AVENGERS. Or CIVIL WAR #8-10, in other words. They're promising reaction to the death of a beloved character, and since the cover of CONFESSION shows a bloodstained shield, it's pretty obvious who they're hinting. There's no issue of CAPTAIN AMERICA on the solicitations, and the HANDBOOK's solicitation goes out of its way to mention that there's an 8-page Captain America profile. (And last month, the solicitation for CAPTAIN AMERICA said it was the resolution of all Ed Brubaker's storylines.) Of course, if they really *are* doing this storyline, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that he'll turn out to be Ronin in the new NEW AVENGERS roster. 

SPIDER-MAN & FANTASTIC FOUR, four-issue miniseries by Jeff Parker and Mike Wieringo. Old-school superheroics. 

SPIDER-MAN MAGAZINE: Thrilling reprint action from MARVEL ADVENTURES SPIDER-MAN and MARVEL ADVENTURES AVENGERS. 

An adaptation of the JUNGLE BOOK. 

AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE. Six-issue mini. 

OMEGA FLIGHT is now a five-issue mini rather than an ongoing. 

LONERS: a six issue miniseries for Excelsior. 

NOVA: ongoing title by Abnett, Lanning and Chen. 

Joss Whedon takes over RUNAWAYS. 

Collections: aside from the obvious recent stories, there's a SPIDER-MAN VISIONARIES: ROGER STERN. 

MARVEL MASTERWORKS: Iron Man vol 4. 

ALPHA FLIGHT CLASSIC vol 1, obviously commissioned before they decided to knock OMEGA FLIGHT down to a miniseries. 


ESSENTIAL SPIDER-MAN vol 8.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jan 2007 12:18 pm    
By Somebody

Quesada says that the Fallen Son series ("not actual title"!) is, well, I'll just quote. However, pay close attention to issue 3, for obvious reasons once you see it: 

Quote: 
>>>
NRAMA: Any other post-Civil War projects that you can name? 

JQ: Lets see, outside of The Confession, we have a project called Civil War: Fallen Son. Its a five-issue series that is constructed within the five stages of grief. Grief over what? Well, youll have to wait and see. What I can tell you is that the series will move from character to character as they deal with a different stage of grief. All five issues are written by Jeph Loeb with a whos who cast of stellar artists. 

Issue #1 stars Wolverine (Denial), art by Leinil Yu 
Issue #2 stars New and Mighty Avengers (Anger), art by Ed McGuinness 
Issue #3 stars Captain America (Bargaining), art by John Romita, Jr. 
Issue #4 stars Spider-Man (Depression), art by David Finch 
Issue #5 stars well that would kind of give the whole thing away. So sorry. But it deals with Acceptance and Im also going to hold onto the artists name for just a bit. Sorry, I know, I suck. 
<<<

Given that issue 5's stars would "give the game away", and looking at who's missing, I'd expect #5 to be Fantastic Four, and, depending on how far they're going, either Reed, Sue or one of their kids to be the one offed. "Son" implies Reed or Franklin. I'd bet on Franklin getting killed in the big Civil War #7 fight, and the guilt stopping the Civil War or something... 


Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
(And last month, the solicitation for CAPTAIN AMERICA said it was the resolution of all Ed Brubaker's storylines.)  
<<<

Where did you see this? The one I saw said, and I quote in its entirety, "CLASSIFIED INFORMATION!" 

In other news, I want to know what's going on with Cable/Deadpool. There was a four-issue Deadpool-centric story (Unfinished Business, #36-39) solicited. Then, shortly before last month's solicits, Fabian said there would be a two-issue Cable story inserted to tie-in to/crossover with X-Men - so the DP story would be #36-37 & #40-41 with a Cable story as #38-39. Now #39's solicited as part 3 of 4 with a DP-heavy solicit, meaning the Cable interlude's now down to one issue. Not liking this mess...

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Jan 2007 02:14 pm    
By JD

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
There's no issue of CAPTAIN AMERICA on the solicitations 
<<<

Apparently, they're running late : #25 got moved to March, and #26, originally solicited for March, will be ending up in April.

			*	*	*

Thread 58

Posted: 26 Jan 2007 01:55 pm    Post subject: Info needed on the Plunderer
By jephyork
Director

I'm looking for some detailed info on the Plunderer and what he's been up to lately. (Yes, I know he just died in Civil War #6 -- I mean before that.) 

I have his entry in the original 1983 Official Handbook -- but I'm clueless about any status quo changes or big adventures after that point. If anyone could help me out, I'd really appreciate it. 

Thanks in advance... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jan 2007 03:47 pm    
By Enda80

Plunderer notes 
http://www.marvunapp.com/master/pjpn.htm 
PLUNDERER (Edgar Parnival Plunder, lord Plunder) - brother of ka-zar, obsessed w/ anarctic vibranium, phobia of other living things, formerly allied with thanos 
-MIDNIGHT STALKER (I#8)--Daredevil I#12 (KaZar V minus 1, DD#13(fb), 12-14, 24, Tales to Astonish I#95-98, Marvel Super-Heroes II#19, Astonishing Tales#11, 17-20, Fantastic Four I#191, Rom#13, Ka-Zar the Savage# 31,32,33"d", Kazar V Annual 1997, KaZar V#1,[2,3],4-10 

PLUNDERER of "Earth-989112" - Responsible for terraforming of New York, forced to give his life to restore it by Ka-Zar 
(app-earth989112)--What If II#112

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jan 2007 06:28 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Urgh. Thanks for the thought, Enda, but that really isn't "info on what he's been up to lately, any status quo changes or big adventures", now is it? 

Can anyone else pitch in? Preferably with actual content? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Jan 2007 09:57 pm    
By SeanCurtin

In Ka-Zar the Savage #33, he fell under some Antarctic ice and apparently froze to death. He survived, but the severe frostbite left him with dead tissue that he replaced with cybernetic implants. In Mark Waid's Ka-Zar series, he was manipulated by Thanos into activating a device that transformed New York into a jungle, but Ka-Zar beat Thanos... in a one-on-one fight. (Peter David and Jim Starlin wrote this off as a Thanos clone in Captain Marvel #17-18.) IIRC, at the end of the story, Thanos and Plunderer were both exiled to the dimension that Thanos had been trapped in as the story began. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Jan 2007 02:57 pm    
By jephyork
Director

That's more like it -- thanks, Sean! 

Does anyone else have any more info on the Plunderer's fate at the end of the Thanos-teamup story? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 59

Posted: 29 Jan 2007 10:15 pm    Post subject: Black Bolt question
By Col_Fury

Black Bolt is a voluntary mute, because when he speaks things blow up. My question is: 

When he speaks, what does Black Bolt say? 

For some reason, I think he says 'Medusa.' But I can't remember if I read that anywhere or if I made it up. Does anyone know what he says? And if so, where was it revealed?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jan 2007 12:15 am    
By shandrakor

I've always amused myself by thinking he says "Boo!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jan 2007 01:43 am    
By SeanCurtin

Two examples off the top of my head: In SS3 60, he broke up a fight by saying "Stop." In INH2 1, he doesn't speak, but he thinks that, if he did, he would tell his family to "Relax." Even if he could talk normally, it doesn't seem like he'd be very verbose. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jan 2007 11:32 am    
By jephyork
Director

In an issue of Quicksilver, he said "Die". But he was being manipulated. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jan 2007 12:06 pm    
By Somebody

And didn't he say "War" at the end of Son of M #6? (he also "speaks", very angrily, to the telepathic Inhuman he has locked up for arranging for Quicksilver to steal the mists. Given that there's actual sentences involved since it's not his physical voice...)

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jan 2007 04:55 pm    
By Col_Fury

I guess I just made it up then. 

Thanks guys!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President
