	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Army of Darkness queston
2. SGTF 13, CA 383/2, & DF 2.4, 3.6
3. DRSTR2 50 & DRSTR2 51
4. Bruce Banner's appearances during HR.
5. Kale, Naomi
6. Enemy of the State analysis?
7. Mowgli?
8. Spider-Man, Storm and Power Man
9. White Tiger #4/New X-Men #35
10. Frankenstein's Monster correction
11. X-Factor 62-65
12. Valkyrie and Defenders#109
13. Hulk FB Questions
14. Baron Wolfgang Von Strucker
15. Quasar #50
16. Iron Fist in the White Tiger LS?
17. Within our reach#1 with Spider-Man story
18. Random MCP Errata

	Issue Analysis Forum
19. Spider-Woman vol2 1-4
20. Analysis for Spider-Man and X-Factor: Shadowgames #1-3
21. February call for analyses
22. Ghost Rider Finale! #94
23. Ghost Rider vol 5 #6-7
24. Wolverine: Origins 11 & misc
25. Chronology Review for Hulk vol. 3 #100/2
26. Punisher: Red X-Mas
27. Chronology Review for Hulk Vol. 3 #100-103

	Chat Forum
28. Marvels arriving on January 31
29. Coming from Marvel in August





Thread 1

Posted: 02 Feb 2007 04:50 pm    Post subject: Army of Darkness queston
By Enda80

The MVL Zombies appear on the last page. It will lead into the upcoming crossover. How would analysis go? 

This reminds me of Youngblood vol.2 #10, with Major Domo and Minor Domo.

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Posted: 02 Feb 2007 05:04 pm    
By Col_Fury

Are we even going to list the Zombie characters? 

I think that universe crossed over with the Ultimate Universe,(meaning, I think the Zombie Universe seen in Ultimate FF is the same from the Zombie miniseries) so would they be included on the Ultimate page? Or are we even going to bother? 

Honestly, I'm curious.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Posted: 02 Feb 2007 05:35 pm    
By Somebody

Dunno. The chronology's relatively simple though: 

First, the the flashback from UltF4: Crossover to Sentry turning up, infected, in the soon-to-be-Zombieverse (an alternate MU, rather than alternate UU). 

Then, the Army of Darkness crossover mini, which will apparently be interweaved with a MZ prequel one-shot which is the only may-be-complicated part (apparently, the MZ/AoD writer's consulted with Kirkman on this though, so they should work) 

Then you go to UltF4: Crossover 

Then Marvel Zombies #1-5 (exc the Five Years later scenes) 

UltF4: Frightful takes place in the UU, until the very end where it ties back to just after the end of the present-day MZ5 scenes (dumping Ultimate Doom in the Zombieverse in the process) 

Then the 5YL scenes from MZ5.

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Posted: 02 Feb 2007 10:24 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
How would analysis go? 
<<<

If you mean, "how would listings go?", they'd go the same exact way they always go when a character we cover has a definitively-canon appearance in a non-Marvel book. We'd list the book. 

 How did you expect it to go? 


Quote: 
>>>
would they be included on the Ultimate page? Or are we even going to bother? 
<<<

Personally, I'd want to put them on the Ultimate page. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 2

Posted: 05 Feb 2007 02:17 am    Post subject: SGTF 13, CA 383/2, & DF 2.4, 3.6
By Col_Fury

Sgt. Fury 13, Captain America 383/2, and Domination Factor 2.4 & 3.6 all show Operation: Einfall, the same event. Currently, Sgt. Fury 13 & Cap 383/2 are listed together, but this portion of Domination Factor is listed separately in everyones chronologies. I didnt catch it at first either, but now that Im going through my Sgt. Fury collection, it kind of sticks out. 

Theres no way this happened twice, the same way both times.(theres identical dialogue, action sequences, Bucky posing as a Hitler Youth, etc) Therefore, its the same event. 

Heres a breakdown of how it fits together overall: 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #13-FB pg1 
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos return from another mission in occupied Europe. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #13-FB pg2pn3-pg2pn5 
Captain America and Bucky demonstrate their fighting moves for British newsreels. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #13 pg1-pg7pn4 
Fury and Pamela Hawley go to the movies, and then make their way to the Pig & Whistle Pub where Sgt. Bull McGiveney is giving Pvt. Rogers a hard time. Fury doesnt like it, so he starts a bar fight. Later, Captain America and Bucky leave for their mission and make their way across the English Channel. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #13 pg7pn5-pg13pn3 
Having been let out of the guardhouse, the Howling Commandos practice combat techniques. Meanwhile, Captain America and Bucky follow Nazis that are herding slave labor. They attack when the Nazis are about to execute Allied POWs, and Cap tells them to get word to the Howling Commandos that theyre needed. Later, Captain Sawyer gives Fury his mission: go to Europe and assist Captain America! 

Captain America #383/2 pg1-pg3 
Captain America and Bucky ambush a Nazi convoy carrying slave laborers. Bucky steals a Hitler Youth uniform and Captain America poses as his captive as Steve Rogers. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #13 pg13pn4-pg16pn2~Captain America #383/2 pg4 
The Howlers arrive in Europe and take on some Nazis while making their way to the destination point. Dum Dum and Dino find an anti-aircraft weapon and overtake the Nazis controlling it. 

Captain America #383/2 pg5pn1-pg5pn5 
While Steve Rogers is loaded on the labor train, Bucky discovers what the labor is for: building an underwater tunnel to Britain; Operation: Einfall. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #13 pg16pn3-pg18~Captain America #383/2 pg5pn6-pg6pn6 
The Howlers find and jump on a train and come into contact with Steve Rogers, who Fury recognizes from the pub. Bucky is put in charge of the prisoners, and when they arrive theyre put to work. 

Domination Factor: the Avengers #2.4-FB pg5pn6 
Fury and Reb settle into a tunnel cart. 

Captain America #383/2 pg6pn7 
Steve and Bucky change into Cap and Bucky. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #13 pg19-pg20~Captain America #383/2 pg7 
Cap sets off an explosion and together the group attacks the Nazis. Cap is almost caught in an explosion. 

Domination Factor #2.4-FB pg7 
A time-traveling Captain America displaces the contemporary one. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #13 pg21pn1-pg21pn2~Captain America #383/2 pg8pn1-pg8pn2 
Cap explains that he plans to blow up the tunnel and the groups separate. 

Domination Factor: the Avengers #2.4 pg19-pg22 
Cap looks for the Golden Apple while Bucky follows, but theyre stopped by the Human Torch! 

Domination Factor: the Avengers #3.6 pg1-pg6 
Cap, Bucky, & Torch are attacked by Nazi troops. Theyre driven off, but Bucky is knocked unconscious. Torch explains that hes a time-traveling Vision who has displaced the Human Torch. The Vision finds the Golden Apple. 

Captain America #383/2 pg8pn3-pg8pn6 
Cap and Bucky fight off some Nazis and start the detonation process. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #13 pg21pn3-pg22pn2~Captain America #383/2 pg9pn1-pg9pn2 
Fury and Reb escape while the tunnels begin to explode. 

Domination Factor: the Avengers #3.6 pg7pn1-pg7pn3 
Cap & Vision are sent back to the Future as the tunnel explodes. 

Captain America #383/2 pg9pn3 
Explosion! 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #13 pg22pn3 
Rubble! 

Domination Factor #3.6 pg7pn4 
Torch regroups with Fury & Reb while Cap & Bucky resurface. 

Captain America #383/2 pg9pn4-pg9pn6~ Domination Factor: the Avengers #3.6 pg7pn5 
Cap and Bucky swim to their rendezvous. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #13 pg22pn4-pg23 
Captain Sawyer checks in on Fury and the Howlers at the hospital while they recover. Next door is Cap and Bucky. 


Yes, there are missing portion from Domination Factor 2.4, but that's because the missing portions are told in FlashBack and contain duplicated information. We don't use '~' for FlashBacks. The last bit of DF 2.4 and the beginning of DF 3.6 are told as happening 'now,' like most other time-travel stories. 

Speaking of time-travel, I've noticed that it's been suggested elsewhere that Domination Factor caused an alternate time-line here. I don't see why it would, things happened more or less as they did originally. 

Some suggestions: 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
 
INV 28 
SGTF 13-FB 
SGTF 13 pg1-pg15 
CA 383/2 pg1-pg5pn5 
SGTF 13 pg16-pg18~CA 383/2 pg5pn6-pg6pn6 
CA 383/2 pg6pn7 
SGTF 13 pg19-pg20~CA 383/2 pg7 
*DF 2.4-FB 
SGTF 13 pg21pn1-pg21~CA 383/2 pg8pn1-pg8pn2 
*DF 2.4 
*DF 3.6 pg1-pg6 
CA 383/2 pg8pn3-pg8pn6 
*DF 3.6 pg7pn1-pg7pn4 
CA 383/2 pg9~DF 3.6 pg7pn5 
SGTF 13 pg22-pg23 
INV 29 
 

BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN BUCKY BARNES 
 
INV 28 
SGTF 13-FB 
SGTF 13 pg1-pg15 
CA 383/2 pg1-pg5pn5 
SGTF 13 pg16-pg18~CA 383/2 pg5pn6-pg6pn6 
CA 383/2 pg6pn7 
SGTF 13 pg19-pg20~CA 383/2 pg7 
*DF 2.4-FB 
SGTF 13 pg21pn1-pg21~CA 383/2 pg8pn1-pg8pn2 
*DF 2.4 
*DF 3.6 pg1-pg6 
CA 383/2 pg8pn3-pg8pn6 
*DF 3.6 pg7pn1-pg7pn4 
CA 383/2 pg9~DF 3.6 pg7pn5 
SGTF 13 pg22-pg23 
INV 38 
 

HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND 
 
INV 28 
*DF 2.4 
*DF 3.6 
INV 29 
 

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
 
SGTF 12 
SGTF 13-FB 
SGTF 13 pg1-pg13pn3 
SGTF 13 pg13pn4-pg18~CA 383/2 pg1-pg6 
*DF 2.4-FB 
SGTF 13 pg19-pg22pn3~CA 383/2 pg7-pg9 
*DF 3.6 
SGTF 13 pg22pn2-pg23 
SGTF 14 
 

RALSTON, ROBERT "REB" 
... 
SGTF 12 
SGTF 13-FB 
SGTF 13 pg1-pg13pn3 
SGTF 13 pg13pn4-pg18~CA 383/2 pg1-pg6 
*DF 2.4-FB 
SGTF 13 pg19-pg22pn3~CA 383/2 pg7-pg9 
*DF 3.6 
SGTF 13 pg22pn2-pg23 
SGTF 14 
 

Of course, this would require removing Domination Factor from where its currently listed in the affected chronologies. 

Some suggested page/panel ranges for everyone else: 

COHEN, 'IZZY' 
 
SGTF 12 
SGTF 13-FB 
SGTF 13 pg1-pg13pn3 
SGTF 13 pg13pn4-pg22pn1~CA 383/2 
SGTF 13 pg22pn2-pg23 
SGTF 14 
 

DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER 'DUM DUM' 
 
SGTF 12 
SGTF 13-FB 
SGTF 13 pg1-pg13pn3 
SGTF 13 pg13pn4-pg22pn1~CA 383/2 
SGTF 13 pg22pn2-pg23 
SGTF 14 
 

JONES, GABRIEL 'GABE' 
 
SGTF 12 
SGTF 13-FB 
SGTF 13 pg1-pg13pn3 
SGTF 13 pg13pn4-pg22pn1~CA 383/2 
SGTF 13 pg22pn2-pg23 
SGTF 14 
 

MANELLI, DINO 
 
SGTF 12 
SGTF 13-FB 
SGTF 13 pg1-pg13pn3 
SGTF 13 pg13pn4-pg22pn1~CA 383/2 
SGTF 13 pg22pn2-pg23 
SGTF 14 
 

PINKERTON, PERCIVAL 'PINKY' 
 
SGTF 12 
SGTF 13-FB 
SGTF 13 pg1-pg13pn3 
SGTF 13 pg13pn4-pg22pn1~CA 383/2 
SGTF 13 pg22pn2-pg23 
SGTF 14 

_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Thread 3

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:01 am    Post subject: DRSTR2 50 & DRSTR2 51
By Col_Fury

Doctor Strange vol2 50 & 51 shows Dr. Strange traveling through time and meeting the Howling Commandos. Currently, its placed in some strange spots for some of the Howlers, and others are missing a listing for these issues. 

For Dum Dum and Gabe, its placed in the then current day of their chronologies. For Nick, its placed in between some FlashBacks, before the Howling Commandos formed, and before he met Pamela Hawley. 

Capt. Sawyer(BTS), Reb, Izzy, Dino, Pamela, and Hitler are all missing entries for these issues. 

These issues have to occur at least after Sgt. Fury 4, where Nick and Pamela meet, and before Sgt. Fury 18, where Pamela is killed during a Nazi air raid. 

The plot of DRSTR2 50 & 51 involves Nicks and Pams love for each other. This shouldn't happen too close to Sgt. Fury 4, because they just met, and Sgt. Fury 18 is when Nick realizes just how much he loves Pam, and decides to propose to her. Ive opted to put this between Sgt. Fury 17 & 18; it reads very nicely in that spot. 

Some suggestions: 

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
 
SGTF 17 
*DRSTR2 50 
*DRSTR2 51 
SGTF 18 
 

DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER 'DUM DUM' 
 
SGTF 17 
*DRSTR2 50 
*DRSTR2 51 
SGTF 18 
 

JONES, GABRIEL 'GABE' 
 
SGTF 17 
*DRSTR2 51 
SGTF 18 
 

COHEN, "IZZY" 
 
SGTF 17 
*DRSTR2 51 
SGTF 18 
 

RALSTON, ROBERT "REB" 
 
SGTF 17 
*DRSTR2 50 
*DRSTR2 51 
SGTF 18 
 

MANELLI, DINO 
 
SGTF 17 
*DRSTR2 51 
SGTF 18 
 

SAWYER, GENERAL SAMUEL 
 
SGTF 17 
*DRSTR2 50-BTS 
*DRSTR2 51-BTS 
SGTF 18 
 
(Nick & Dum Dum were wanted by Sawyer in 50, and the Howlers received orders from Sawyer off panel in 51, giving him a BTS for both issues) 

HAWLEY, PAMELA 
 
SGTF 17 
*DRSTR2 50 
*DRSTR2 51 
SGTF 18 

HITLER, ADOLF 
 
SGTF 14 
INV 32 
INV 33 
*DRSTR2 51 
SGTF 24 

_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Thread 4

Posted: 08 Feb 2007 03:07 pm    Post subject: Bruce Banner's appearances during HR.
By Somebody

Something which I can't find - are they missing, and if not what are they listed under? Given that it was the real Banner (if not the real Hulk), and most of the other "real" HR characters appearances' are listed.

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Posted: 08 Feb 2007 07:40 pm    
By LordZorn

Gentlemen: 

This thread brings to mind what I consider an error in the HULK's listing...I have not read it, but it seems to me the time-travel episode in IM2 11 should not be listed in the HULK's canon, since it took place in the ReborniVerse, while the HULK's other body remained on current-time 616. Any clarification would be appreciated.... 

Lord Zorn, Resident Hulkologist

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Posted: 08 Feb 2007 11:03 pm  
By JLH

Bringing up IM2 11 reminds me how someone needs to sit Jeph Loeb down and explain to him how Hulk evolved in that era, and wasn't dumb "Hulk Smashies!" from the start. He made the same mistake when he did "Hulk: Gray" and it makes chronological reading far more jarring than a bundle of topical references.

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Posted: 09 Feb 2007 10:49 am    
By Somebody

LordZorn wrote: 
>>>
Gentlemen: 

This thread brings to mind what I consider an error in the HULK's listing...I have not read it, but it seems to me the time-travel episode in IM2 11 should not be listed in the HULK's canon, since it took place in the ReborniVerse, while the HULK's other body remained on current-time 616. Any clarification would be appreciated.... 

Lord Zorn, Resident Hulkologist 
<<<

It's flashbacks to MU-history that confuse Doom and IM (including the original Avengers with IM-in-gold-armour [including Hulk, the problem that JLH mentions notwithstanding...] and Merlin referencing IM150) and one which is seemingly HR-history, with AirWalker "seeding" the Earth.)

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Posted: 10 Feb 2007 03:03 am    
By LordZorn

Somebody: 

My main point is that, since the time trip took place within the confines of the Franklinverse, any Flashbacks terefrom would be to an alternative past attached to/created for that pocket universe, and not applicable to the 616 HULK et al. 

Lord Zorn...who has myriads of HULK-related queries

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Posted: 10 Feb 2007 04:08 pm    
By Somebody

But: 

1) Iron Man didn't wear the gold armour at any point in HR (indeed, none of the Avengers there look anything like the HR battle) 
2) As I said, MERLIN REFERENCES IM150! In other words, the time-travel's pulled them into the MU past.

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Thread 5

Posted: 11 Feb 2007 09:51 pm    Post subject: Kale, Naomi
By Somebody

Noticed she's only listed for GR3 -1 there. She's in at least GR3 90-93 (and 94/Finale, but that's not in the MCP yet, where, judging by the GRIII/Ketch listing, the others are) as an actively-participating ghost. Since I've only got 90-94 and -1 of that series at the moment, I can't say for sure which earlier issues she's in as well, but the intro to #90 makes it sound like she'd been around before that. Anyone able to fill out her earlier apps? 

[And it's confirmed that the ghost-woman's her to Dan Ketch in #93, FTR, so that's not dependent on 94/Finale]

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Thread 6

Posted: 15 Feb 2007 02:40 pm    Post subject: Enemy of the State analysis?
By Somebody

Anyone know if an Enemy of the State/Wolverine: Agent of SHIELD (i.e. Millar's Wolverine run) analysis was done, and if it was which archive it's in?

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Posted: 15 Feb 2007 09:29 pm    
By Col_Fury

This is for Ant-Man, right? Only the first two issues of Enemy of the State were analysed,(March, 2005) Paul B. ended up covering the rest himself.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Posted: 16 Feb 2007 06:57 am    
By Somebody

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
This is for Ant-Man, right? 
<<<

Right. 

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Only the first two issues of Enemy of the State were analysed,(March, 2005) Paul B. ended up covering the rest himself. 
<<<

Damn, it's ~#25-28 I really need. Better go a-searchin' through my collection' then. 

Thanks anyway.

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Posted: 16 Feb 2007 07:00 am    
By Col_Fury

No problem.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Posted: 17 Feb 2007 12:17 pm    Post subject: Mowgli?
By zeus

In the back of Marvel Fanfare #9 (vol. 1), there's a Gil Kane scripted adventure of Mowgli (you know, as in Rudyard Kipling?). Is that MU 616 cannon?

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Posted: 17 Feb 2007 07:44 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Probably not, unless some Marvel Universe source has referenced Kipling as canonical. Just because Marvel adapted it doesn't mean that it's automatically MU canon.

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Thread 8

Posted: 17 Feb 2007 03:42 pm    Post subject: Spider-Man, Storm and Power Man
By Oedivanth

Hey everyone - 

Just picked up the Spider-Man, Storm and Power Man anti-smoking comic book. I noticed something on page four...Spider-Man introduces the pair to one another, even though they must have met before (?). In your placement, the issue comes between Marvel Team-Up 107 and Amazing Spider-Man 218 for Spidey's chronology, between pages of Avengers Annual 10 for Storm and between Power Man and Iron Fist 72 and Marvel Team-Up Annual 4 for Luke. 

Storm and Power Man have at least Power Man and Iron Fist 57 and Uncanny X-Men 122 in common. I can't recall if they met for certain in those issues but I would find it tough to believe if they did not. Perhaps they did miss each other and I don't remember? 

If I'm right, does this mean that the anti-smoking issue is not canon? Or is it explained away by saying the two heroes were faking not knowing each other? 

Thanks for any help you can give.

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Posted: 17 Feb 2007 07:17 pm    
By Nathan P. Mahney

They definitely met in Uncanny X-Men #122, and seemed to already be familiar with each other by that point.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: 17 Feb 2007 08:50 pm    
By Agent of Shield

Ever introduced anyone to someone they already knew? How embarassing.

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Thread 9

Posted: 16 Feb 2007 10:22 am    Post subject: White Tiger #4/New X-Men #35
By Kevin W.
Director

Here's a couple of other recent comic books with throwaway lines that may cause predicaments, (as such, I figured I'd note them here): 

White Tiger #4: Luke Cage is sparring in a boxing gym with our hero Angelo Del Toro, when she teases him with a comment in regards to his womanizing, and he responds, "Watch it. I'm settled. Respectable. Gonna be a dad." 

Not "I'm a dad now," he's saying he's going to be a dad. This mini-series is definently Pre-Civil War, (the narration at the start of each issue states as much). Clues include references to the Registration Act being discussed, (prior to it passing) and Matt Murdock is referrenced as being in jail. Luke Cage is referenced as being a member of the New Avengers, yet Spidey (who makes a brief appearance) was in his regular "red and blue" costume...Can this mini be placed while Jessica Jones is still pregnant, (pre-Pulse #11-13)? 

New X-Men #35: X-23 tells the Owl, "You are only in control of Kingpin's territory because he left the country. You will remain in power only until he returns or someone kills you." 

Kingpin left the country at the end of the last issue of Daredevil, (#93) so this must occur after that...problem is, Issue #93 occurs over what must be at least weeks, (and perhaps even months)...I'm working on analysis for it, (and the last part of Planet Hulk) but I wondered if this was going to throw a wrench in New X-Men chronology... 

And last we saw the Owl, he was in the prison hospital, recovering from a severe beating at the hands of Matt Murdock...he must've got better, (which is fine, if this is weeks/months later). 

Also, at some point in X-23's past, (I'm not buying her mini-series) she worked for the Kingpin...this could be hazardous for placement, as Kingpin, (over the last few years) has been: 

a. blind 
b. in a coma 
c. in jail 

So if there's a flashback to Laura working for the Kingpin somewhere, it would almost have to occur prior to DD2 #9-15.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 16 Feb 2007 10:48 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The line about X-23 working for the Kingpin is a reference to a flashback in X-23: TARGET X #3, during her time as a freelance assassin hired out by the Facility.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 16 Feb 2007 11:23 am    
By Mikhail

And it was about 5-6 years ago Marvel-Time, putting it more reasonably in the realm of the Kingpin's late 80's - early 90's stranglehold over Manhattan.

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Posted: 16 Feb 2007 08:36 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin wrote: 
>>>
Kingpin left the country at the end of the last issue of Daredevil, (#93) so this must occur after that...problem is, Issue #93 occurs over what must be at least weeks, (and perhaps even months)...I'm working on analysis for it, (and the last part of Planet Hulk) but I wondered if this was going to throw a wrench in New X-Men chronology...  
<<<

I don't think so. A gap can be placed between NX 32 and 33 that can allow NX 35 to occur after the end of DD2 93. I look forward to your analysis of DD2 so I'll have a better sense of where to place the current NX story arc. All I know right now is that in NX 33, NX 31 is referred to as having occurred "recently," a term that's open to interpretation. 

And thanks for the advance heads-up on White Tiger placement.
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: 17 Feb 2007 09:40 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Mikhail wrote: 
>>>
And it was about 5-6 years ago Marvel-Time, putting it more reasonably in the realm of the Kingpin's late 80's - early 90's stranglehold over Manhattan. 
<<<

Okay, again, I've not read the X-23 mini-series, but isn't X-23 around 16 years old now? So 5 to 6 Marvel years ago, she was what, 11 years old? Kingpin was using an 11 year old assassin? 

Did she appear to be that young in those flashbacks?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 17 Feb 2007 10:58 pm    
By Mikhail

Yes, she did. Earlier in the series, she was only 9-10 and massacred twenty-something people right under Captain America's nose. She was an assassin from a very early age.

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Posted: 17 Feb 2007 11:30 pm    
By Col_Fury

Yup. That's what made her such a 'great buy' as an assassin. Nobody expects a ten year old to kill you!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 10

Posted: 18 Feb 2007 10:56 am    Post subject: Frankenstein's Monster correction
By Enda80

I found some Youtube clips on the Argento film Phenomena which takes place in Switzerland (Jennifer Connelly as basically the Insect Queen/Lana Lang or Ant-Man) and I remembered an error in the Frankenstein Monster's listing. You see a brief, postage stamp sized fb of him walking away as Victoria Frankenstein mentions how he "went his own way". 


M/TU 37 
IM 102-FB 
IM 101 
IM 102 
**DRSTR3 37-FB 
BLOODSTONE 1 
BLOODSTONE 2 
BLOODSTONE 3 
BLOODSTONE 4

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Posted: 18 Feb 2007 11:15 am    
By Starman

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
the Argento film Phenomena which takes place in Switzerland (Jennifer Connelly as basically the Insect Queen/Lana Lang or Ant-Man) 
<<<

Very good film in my opinion. (Is available on DVD.)
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

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Thread 11

Posted: 18 Feb 2007 04:08 pm    Post subject: X-Factor 62-65
By metaldragon

I notice in Marvel Girl's chronology and the other members of X-Factor who appear in these issues have them listed in this order: 

XF 62 
GR3 9 
XF 63 
XF 64 
UX 273 
UX 274 
NM@ 7/3 
XF 65 
XF@ 6 
XF 65 

I double checked against the X-Men Index and they too have these issues placed in this order. This can't be right if you go by X-Factor's uniforms. In UX 273 & 274 Cyclops, Marvel Girl and the rest of the team are wearing their old uniforms. In XF 63 they are shown wearing all new outfits. 

Dialogue in UX 273 indicates that X-Factor have been staying in the X-mansion basement with the X-Men and New Mutants up until this point (while they heal from their injuries and Storm's hair grows back) but GR3 9 & XF 63 clearly shows them onboard Ship. 

I know in the opening pages of XF 65 Cyclops reminds the team that the X-Men disappeared with Lila Cheney with a note that says: *See the end scenes of UX 273 & 274, but he goes on to say "We could go after them in Ship, but given recent events, I don't think that's a viable option. The situation here at home is too grim. It's up to us to look after things until the X-Men return. If the X-Men return." 

I believe the "recent events" he's referring to could be GR3 9, XF 63-64 and possibly even XF@ 6 (why stick a story in the middle of a book if you don't have to?) 

Conclusion: 

XF 62 (End of X-tinction Agenda) 
UX 273 (Wearing same uniforms since XF 26) 
UX 274 
GR3 9 (New style uniforms but old colours, onboard Ship) 
XF 63 (New uniforms, new colours, onboard Ship) 
XF 64 
NM@ 7/3 
XF@ 6 
XF 65 (Iceman's appearance in WOSM 75 could fit either side of XF@ 6 or between pages here: published same month. Not sure about Beast's appearance in ASMU 3/2-FB though)
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thread 12

Posted: 19 Feb 2007 12:35 pm    Post subject: Valkyrie and Defenders#109
By Enda80

Defenders#109 has many juicy flasbacks for both Odin and Valkyrie. One fb early in this issue shows Amora stealing Brunhile's soul, and another depicts the disbanding of the Valkyries. 

Have a squint for yourself. 


http://www.comicboards.com/php/post.php?action=new&board=thor 

VALKYRIE II/BRUNNHILDE/SISTER BARBARA DENTON NORRISS/GENEVIEVE CROSS 
Note: See also Norriss, Sister Barbara Denton 
DEF 109-FB 
DEF 108-FB 
DEF 109-FB 
M/:LG 5 
{A 83} 
H2 142

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Posted: 22 Feb 2007 04:30 am    Post subject: Hulk FB Questions
By LordZorn

Gentlemen: 

Could anyone clarify MCP SOP in regards to why such books as HULK: Gray and HULK: Destruction are included in the MCP when a large part of the story depends on clearly non-canon flashbacks??? 

Also, when(or will) the rest of the original Sentry series(with its FBs) be entered into the MCP...or have the new Sentry series and attendant books negated their validity(necessitating their removal from the MCP??? 

Lord Zorn, also curious when the rest of Origins will be entered

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Feb 2007 08:06 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Are you sure Hulk: Destruction has been added to the MCP? I don't see it in the Key... 

As for Hulk: Gray, it appears we've listed the modern day sequences, but left out the flashbacks. That would probably be the best approach with the flashbacks in Hulk: Destruction as well, (in other words, the characters are clearly misremembering events).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Feb 2007 06:26 pm    
By LordZorn

Mr. Wasser: My apologies. I remembered that Mr. Borcier had included Hulk: Destruction in his excellent Calendar and forgot that our fearless Administrator has yet to catch up with him in the MCP listings.

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Posted: 22 Feb 2007 04:19 pm    Post subject: Baron Wolfgang Von Strucker
By Col_Fury

This is how Baron Struckers chronology currently looks: 

BARON STRUCKER/WOLFGANG VON STRUCKER 
GAM3 10 
X:TF 1 
X:TF 2 
X:TF 3 
HMAG 23/2 
XFOR 64 
UX 268-FB 
{SGTF 5} 
SGTF 9 
SGTF 14 
SGTF 20 
INV 40 
SGTF 22 
SGTF 28 
SGTF 29 
CS 4-FB 
CS 2-FB 
CS 2 
CS 3 
CS 4 
GAM3 10 
SGTF 114 
FURY 1-FB 
M/U 2-FB 
M/U 1 
M/U 2 
M/U 3 
NF3 3-FB 
NF3 4-FB 
NF3 5-FB 
N 10-FB 
UX 161-FB 
WX2 14-FB 
N 8-FB-BTS 
DD 295-FB 
UTSM -1 
UTSM -1/2 
FURY 1-FB (29 - 39:2) 
FURY 1-FB (43 - 53) 
ST 150 
 

Baron Strucker does not appear in Invaders #40 as listed here, but he does appear in Invaders #30, which is not listed. In Invaders #30, Baron Strucker and his Blitzkrieg Squad attempt to kidnap Winston Churchill and Sir Montgomery Law. This has to occur at least after Sgt. Fury #14, because that issue shows the formation of the Blitzkrieg Squad. 

Daredevil 295-FB shows Baron Strucker dealing with an insurrectionist faction within his new Hydra, and deals with the leader by cutting off his hands. This portion takes place during WWII, thanks to Struckers reference of Hitler being around at the time. Also, this is early in Struckers time as the new leader of Hydra, as hes dealing with a group within his organization that doesnt agree with the way hes running things. Currently, this is listed well after the wars over, and should be moved to between Captain Savage FlashBacks. CS 4-FB shows Strucker taking over Hydra, CS 2-FB has Strucker already in charge of Hydra. 

Fury 1 pg10-pg11 shows Strucker meeting with the Red Skull and Arnim Zola near the end of the war, as Hitler prepares contingency plans. Pg12 shows Strucker going back to Japan and retaking Hydra. This should occur at least after M/U 1-3, because thats where he lost face with Hydra, making it necessary to eventually retake it. 

Marvel Universe 2-FB is currently placed after the Captain Savage issues, but that cant work. Traveling back in time is what gave Strucker the idea of creating a second power base for himself, because he saw the future of Germany losing the war in M/U 2-FB. He is already leading Hydra in CS 2-4, so M/U 2-FB must be moved earlier. M/U 2-FB occurs the same day as INV 32(it revealed that Dr. Doom in those issues was time traveling), and that in turn follows closely behind INV 30. 

Weapon X 14-FB occurs in 1944, or during WWII. Its currently placed after Namor 8-FB, which takes place in 1961, so it should be moved earlier in his chronology. 

Taking all of this into account, heres a suggested reworking of Baron Struckers early chronology, dates in parentheses are stated in the comics: 

BARON STRUCKER/WOLFGANG VON STRUCKER 
GAM3 10 (1) (1916) 
X: TF 1 (1936) 
X: TF 2 (1936) 
X: TF 3 (1936) 
HMAG 23/2 (1937) 
XFOR 64 (1941) 
UX 268-FB (08/41) 
{SGTF 5} 
SGTF 9 
SGTF 14 
INV 30 
MU 2-FB 
SGTF 20 
SGTF 22 
SGTF 28 
SGTF 29 
CS 4-FB 
DD 295-FB 
CS 2-FB-BTS 
CS 2 
CS 3 
CS 4 
GAM3 10 (2 - 5), (13 - 16) (1943) 
SGTF 114 
M/U 1 
M/U 2 (05/44) 
M/U 3 
NF3 3-FB 
NF3 4-FB 
NF3 5-FB 
WX2 14-FB (1944) 
FURY 1 (10 - 11) 
N 10-FB (04/45) 
FURY 1 (12) 
N 8-FB-BTS (1961) 
UX 161-FB 
UTSM -1 
UTSM -1/2 
FURY 1-FB (29 - 39:2) 
FURY 1-FB (43 - 53) 
ST 150 

_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

Last edited by Col_Fury on 22 Feb 2007 11:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Feb 2007 04:35 pm    
By Enda80

I wrote a little bit on Strucker. I am not sure about the placement. 

Gambit Vol.3 #11 (the gem the Momentary Princess appeared to him during World War I) 
X-Men:True Friends #1-3 (in 1930's, worked with Geist and Amahl Farouk to unsettle British situation) 
Rampaging Hulk Vol.1 #23 (flashback to 1937, attempted to murder U.S. senator, stopped by Dominic Fortune) 
X-Force #64 (fb, in Latveria, faced time-travelling X-Force in 1941) 
Invaders Vol.1 #30 (fb, attempted to murder Winston Churchill while Teutonic Knight distracted Invaders) 
Daredevil Vol.1 #295 (flashback, had a confrontation with a member of the Hand, severed that person's hands from wrists) 
Uncanny X-Men #268 (flashback, kidnapped young Nastasha Romanova with help of the Hand, defeated by Captain America) 
Nick Fury & The Howling Commandos #5 
Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandos #9 (attempted to prevent Howler plan to kidnap Hitler, little realzing it was only an imposter) 
Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandos #28-29 (faced the Howlers in Cherbeaux in 1944) 
Fury #1 (fb, on the run from Hitler, met with Arnim Zola and Red Skull, usurped control of Hydra from Shinto imperialists) 
Captain Savage And His Leatherneck Raiders #2-4 
Namor, The Sub-Mariner #10 (in flashback, seen in Berlin 1945 upon the fall of the Third Reich) 
Untold Tales of Spider-Man #-1 (fb, faced Richard and Mary Parker and Logan/Wolverine) 
Uncanny X-Men #161 (fb, revealed how he had faced a young Charles Xavier and the man who would become Magneto, defeated, gold stolen from him) 
Fury #1 (fb, in Japan. Arnim Zola and Strucker are conferring. Zola discusses their creation of the Deltite and an "alien queen". Zola mentions that he has devised a way to ensure the survival of Strucker as he did the Skull and Hitler. Then, Jake Fury is seen talking to Strucker in a video conference call. Just after the call ends, Fury walks in on Jake.) 
Strange Tales Vol.1 #156-158 (killed)

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Feb 2007 11:45 pm    
By Col_Fury

Thanks for the info on Rampaging Hulk 23/2.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Posted: 05 Dec 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject: Quasar #50
By Ethain

I'm having problems placing Quasar #50 in my Adam Warlock collection. September 93 was Infinity Crusade time, that's all I can find out... Any suggestions about how to place Quasar 50 in Infinity Crusade chronology?

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Dec 2006 01:13 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Have you checked Warlock's chronology? 


watching: one life to live

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Feb 2007 12:07 pm    
By Ethain

Well, Warlock Chronology hasn't this part yet, but someone post an update suggestion months ago, like this: 

WARLOCK II/ADAM WARLOCK 
... 
IW 6 
(Again, why do so many characters have IC listings, yet the Infinity Watch doesn't? An oversight or intentional?) 
**Q 50 
**Q 53 
**STARBLAST 1 
**Q 54 
(Blood & Thunder stuff also missing, but it'd go here) 
SS3 94 
CPU 1 

Ok, but my collection is a litlle more expanded than that, it's like this: 
[Final part of IC Crossover] 
Infinity Crusade #006 
Deathlok #029 
Thor v1 #467 
Thor v1 Annual #018 
Marc Spector, Moon Knight v3 #058 
Marc Spector, Moon Knight #059 
Marc Spector, Moon Knight v3 #060 
Web of Spider-Man v1 #107 
Web of Spider-Man v1 #108 
Iron Man v1 #296 
Iron Man v1 #297 
Darkhawk #032 
Web of Spider-Man #109 

Quasar #050 <-- Where should I put this issue? 

[Starblast Crossover] 
Quasar #053 
Starblast #001 
Quasar #054 

Thanks again for any collaboration!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Feb 2007 12:55 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Ethain wrote: 
>>>
Well, Warlock Chronology hasn't this part yet, but someone post an update suggestion months ago, like this: 
<<<

And Warlock's chronology was updated, months ago. You didn't answer my question, so I'll ask it again: Have you bothered to check Warlock's chronology, here on the site? 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/w.htm 



Ethain wrote: 
>>>
Quasar #050 <-- Where should I put this issue? 
<<<

For which character? Warlock? Q 50 is between WIW 17 and Q 53. Infinity Crusade occurs between Q 53 and Q 54. If you're disputing that, then feel free to state your case, but you're asking questions here that are already answered in the chronologies themselves. 


watching: cnn newsroom

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Feb 2007 01:13 pm 
By Ethain

Thank you for your help, I didn't find the correct Warlock chronology because I used the web figure searcher and in http://www.chronologygraph.com/searchthemcp.php?figure=8446 
there's no Q 50... I can see the updated chronology now and I've updated my chronology order.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Feb 2007 01:17 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I see. The search feature is operated by someone else, offsite, and I don't really have much control over that. Perhaps the guys at chronologygraph will run across this and update their files. 


watching: cnn newsroom

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Feb 2007 03:26 am    
By jimmyppi

That would be me  

This is good timing, because I'm planning an update to the search site soon. 

Maybe I should link the figures directly to this site instead (and use #figurename when possible)?

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Feb 2007 09:47 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

It would mean that people would have to find the individual's chronology on the page for themselves, but personally, I think that would still be the better option. It would mean you wouldn't be under pressure to update your site quite as often. 

I understand that updating the search feature is very time consuming, and appreciate the service you perform for the site. I realize that I could use Google for our search engine, and the searches would be updated almost daily, but I truly like the functionality that you provide. 


watching: 24

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Feb 2007 04:19 am    
By jimmyppi

Quote: 
>>>
It would mean that people would have to find the individual's chronology on the page for themselves, but personally, I think that would still be the better option. It would mean you wouldn't be under pressure to update your site quite as often.  
<<<

One solution (which would mean some boring work for you..) is to add a link name (like <A NAME=thename) to all figures in the project. 


Quote: 
>>>
I understand that updating the search feature is very time consuming, and appreciate the service you perform for the site. I realize that I could use Google for our search engine, and the searches would be updated almost daily, but I truly like the functionality that you provide.  
<<<

The plan is to update more often in the future so I don't need to put so much time in remembering how the update process worked  

I'm thinking of also providing a list of the comics that are included in the search engine, the users could then see what is missing and how to abbreviate the comics.

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Posted: 25 Feb 2007 12:31 pm    Post subject: Iron Fist in the White Tiger LS?
By Ant-Man

Does anyone know if Iron Fist has appeared in the White Tiger limited series? I haven't been reading it, but I came across a note on another site that Iron Fist was in the first 3 issues of the series. 

Thanks!
_________________
PUM SPAK 
Justice is Served

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Feb 2007 03:31 pm    
By JD

Yes. 

Well, we actually see "Daredevil 2.0", and Danny Rand showed up last issue. No actual "Iron Fist" appareance, but it's nearly that, eh ?

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Feb 2007 06:27 pm    
By Ant-Man

Thanks! 
I'll go hunt those issues down...
_________________
PUM SPAK 
Justice is Served

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Posted: 25 Feb 2007 08:20 am    Post subject: Within our reach#1 with Spider-Man story
By Enda80

I am about to put a lot of stuff on Ebay, so I have decided to summarize this issue before it goes out. I will use this synopsis for the ebay promo. 

Within Our Reach published in 1991 
Wolf at the Door 
Roy and Dann Thomas 
Jeff Butler 

Roberto Velasco, father 
Fredo, son 
Manuel, infant son 

Coyote never seen 
El Lobo, slum lord 

A boy rips off a bread truck. Spidey pursues and discovers the classic sweat shop situation, with a slum lord named El Lobo running the complex. 

There is brief shot of Uncle Ben getting blown away with Aunt May putting her hands up in surprise, but since Peter wasn't there to see it, and this scene is a thought of his that flashes through his mind as he sees the bread truck, it proves nothing. 

A shot of the security guard running after the father of Jessica Carradine.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Feb 2007 11:42 am    
By jephyork
Director

What's the point of posting this here? If it's an issue analysis, you posted it in the wrong forum and you've got some MAJOR lapses in coverage (not listing Spidey's appearance, for one thing). If it's verbatim what you're posting on eBay, it's pretty pointless as well -- people on eBay want to know about the book's condition, not about which minor characters appear in it. (And why would WE care what your eBay blurb will be?) 

And if you're trying to start a conversation about the book itself ... what's your point? 

You've posted some odd stuff before, but this is truly baffling. We're not a dumping ground for whatever random thoughts go through your head, John. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Posted: 22 Feb 2007 04:57 am    Post subject: Random MCP Errata
By LordZorn

1. I believe that the listing for ABSORBING MAN/Creel, Carl "Crusher" should be split into another entry following CM6 18 FB because, according to that very FB, we know that the Absorbing Man appearing in the subsequent issues of H3 was an alternative-universe version, with different powers. 

(BTW, does anyone know if the HULK appears in Marvel Knights: Spiderman 16??? While cruising Wikipedia, I noticed aa footnote claiming that Creel could absorb the Hulk's powers and citing this issue.) 

2. I believe the Rhino's real name should be added top his listing. It is, according to the "Flowers for Rhino" story in TW, Alexsei Mikhailovich Sytsevich, Alex O'Hirn is only an alias he has used in the past. 

3. I would like to urge, as another poster tried to do(before I "hijacked" the thread<humble apologies>, the re-inclusion in the MCP of a separate chronological entry for the Heroes Reborn Hulk/Bruce Banner. I think it only fair, since all the other heroes involved address the Franklinverse somewhere in their listings. ( I will wait, none too patiently, for Mr. Bourcier to provide a full calendarial sequentialisation of that adventure, I guess<LOL>. 

Lord Zorn...more to come, I hope

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Feb 2007 09:40 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

LordZorn wrote: 
>>>
(BTW, does anyone know if the HULK appears in Marvel Knights: Spiderman 16??? While cruising Wikipedia, I noticed aa footnote claiming that Creel could absorb the Hulk's powers and citing this issue.) 
<<<


Hulk makes no appearance in M/KSM 16. 

BTW, glad to see you're finally posting, LordZorn!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Feb 2007 05:42 am    
By LordZorn

Paul B: 

TYVM, Sir!!! I assume, then, that Mr. Creel's reference is to a past encounter with the HULK. (BTW, I agree with your assertion elsewhere about the boringness of "Planet HULK/Crossroads II"   The Hulk is most effective/interesting when changing E-616 by virtue of his rage.). 

To keep on-topic, here are more errata: 

4-D Man is a [Gramosian]; The Metal Master(whose name, Molyb, should also be added) is an [Astran], per the Alien Races Appendix in Volume I of the original OHOTMU; and Tyrannus' real name is(per A@20, I believe) Romulus Augustulus Caesar, the 616 counterpart to this Earth's last Roman Emperor before the Fall of Rome in 476 C.E. 

I leave you with this question, Paul: Which issue of the Marvel UK series "Shadow Riders" did you once tell me had a Hulk-related FB which precedes the "infomercial" in Marvel Age Annual 4 with Damage control and Mr. Fixit??? 

Lord Zorn, who firmly believes chronologising beats watching Britney Spears do her Dirk Garthwaite( or is it "Penguin" ???) impression for the umpteenth time on Fox News   

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Feb 2007 07:02 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

LordZorn wrote: 
>>>
I leave you with this question, Paul: Which issue of the Marvel UK series "Shadow Riders" did you once tell me had a Hulk-related FB which precedes the "infomercial" in Marvel Age Annual 4 with Damage control and Mr. Fixit???  
<<<

I must be having a brain burp; I don't remember. I re-checked all four issues of SHADOWRIDERS and, while Hulk appears in issue #1, I didn't see any flashback involving Hulk/Fixit. Of course, given the art and lettering of that series, it's easy to overlook something in all the busy-ness.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Posted: 03 Feb 2007 03:56 am    Post subject: Spider-Woman vol2 1-4
By Col_Fury

Spider-Woman vol2 #1 
W: Roy & Dann Thomas 
D: John Czop 
Published: November 1993 

Appearances: 
Spider-Woman(Julia Carpenter), USAgent(John Walker), Carter Napier, Therak, Rachel Carpenter, Liz Cornwall, Walt Cornwall, Consuela 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: Los Angeles 
Spider-Woman & USAgent fight some gangsters; then Spider-Woman goes to LAX to meet her parents. They go back to Julias place and catch up. That night, a friend of her parents(Carter Napier) arrives, but hes covered in bites and dies on her doorstep. She goes outside as Spider-Woman to investigate and shes attacked by Therak. After a fight, she goes home and collapses. 

References: 
An editors note tells us this issue takes place after Avengers West Coast 100. Also, Spider-Woman notes the events of that issue were the other day. 

Full moon over Los Angeles, all in one night. 

Spider-Woman vol2 #2 
W: Roy & Dann Thomas 
D: John Czop 
Published: December 1993 

Appearances: 
Spider-Woman(Julia Carpenter), Rachel Carpenter, Liz Cornwall, Walt Cornwall, Consuela, Val Cooper, War Machine(Jim Rhodes)-BTS, Manipulator-FB, Therak(Theo)-FB, Antro(Hashi Noto)-FB, Arachne(Dr. Sylvie Yaqua)-FB, Mike Clemson, Carter Napiers corpse 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: same day as last issue 
Spider-Woman wakes up, tells her parents that shes Spider-Woman, goes to the West Coast Avengers Headquarters and gets a Quinjet. 
Pg6-pg8pn1: next day, Washington DC 
Spider-Woman arrives in Washington DC to get answers from Valerie Cooper about her origin. 
Pg8pn2-pg8pn6(of 6)-FB 
Val Cooper heads a Commission on Superhuman activities meeting to see what they can do about getting superheroes responsive to government control. Shortly afterwards, an expedition(including Liz & Walt Cornwall) is sent to the Peruvian Amazon to collect samples of plants and spider venoms. 
Pg9pn1: now 
Spider-Woman is shocked! 
Pg9pn2-pg9pn6(of 6)-FB 
Back from the Amazon, the Commission is ready to start testing people to see if they can give them spider powers. Val has an idea of who they can use: Julia Carpenter. She goes to Denver and calls her on the phone. 
Pg10pn1: now 
Val continues her story. 
Pg10pn2-pg18pn1-FB 
Julia is tested, then a series of scenes that intermix with Avengers West Coast 84-FB, Secret Wars, and other comics. 
Pg18pn2-pg19pn1: now 
Val continues her story. 
Pg19pn2-pg20-FB 
After Spider-Woman quit the Commission, the Manipulator arrives and changes the janitor(Theo) into Therak, and two scientists(Noto & Yaqua) into Antro and Arachne. 
Pg21-pg22: now 
Spider-Woman attacks Val and goes off to save her daughter and parents, who may be in danger from the Manipulator and Deathweb. 

References: 
Arachne, Therak, and Antro are given names! 

Jim Rhodes is noted as being at the WCA Headquarters, but hes not seen giving him a BTS. 

Spider-Woman vol2 #3 
W: Roy & Dann Thomas 
D: John Czop 
Published: January 1994 

Appearances: 
Spider-Woman(Julia Carpenter), Rachel Carpenter, Liz Cornwall, Walt Cornwall, Therak(Theo), Antro(Hashi Noto), Arachne(Dr. Sylvie Yaqua), Manipulator, Mike Clemson 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: day after last issue 
Spider-Woman is making her way down the Amazon when shes attacked by the Manipulators goons. Meanwhile, Julias family is attacked by the Manipulator and Deathweb. Spider-Woman arrives later and tracks them using the Avengers ID card she gave her daughter. Shes eventually captured by Deathweb. 

References: 
An editors note tells us this takes place before AWC 102. Issue 1 is after 100, putting this mini between AWC 100 & 102. 

Spider-Woman vol2 #4 
W: Roy & Dann Thomas 
D: John Czop 
Published: February 1994 

Appearances: 
Spider-Woman(Julia Carpenter), Rachel Carpenter, Therak(Theo), Antro(Hashi Noto), Arachne(Dr. Sylvie Yaqua), Manipulator, Mike Clemson 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: same day as last issue 
Spider-Woman is captured, so Arachne & Antro inject a serum in her to see what it will do. She breaks free as Mike Clemson arrives and they fly to Silicon Valley to go after the Manipulator, who has Rachel. Everyone fights, Clemson leaves and Spider-Woman wins, after discovering her powers have been amplified. 

References: 
All in one night. There are no breaks in plot in this miniseries, so wherever it fits between AWC 100 & 102, itll be all four issues together. 

Some placement suggestions: 

CLEMSON, MIKE 
 
AWC 85 
AWC 86 
*S-W2 2 
*S-W2 3 
*S-W2 4 

CONSUELA 
 
AWC 90 
AWC 92 
*S-W2 1 
*S-W2 2 
FW 4 

CARPENTER, RACHEL 
... 
AWC 92 
*S-W2 1 
*S-W2 2 
*S-W2 3 
*S-W2 4 
SECDEF 1-FB 
SECDEF 20 
 

CORNWALL, LIZ 
*S-W2 2-FB 
*{S-W2 1} 
*S-W2 2 
*S-W2 3 

CORNWALL, WALT 
*S-W2 2-FB 
*{S-W2 1} 
*S-W2 2 
*S-W2 3 

CARPENTER, LARRY 
AWC 84-FB pg11pn3 
PPTSS 125-FB 
AWC 84-FB pg14pn1 
{IM 214} 
... 

NAPIER, CARTER 
S-W2 2-FB pg8pn2-pg8pn3 
S-W2 2-FB pg9pn2-pg9pn3 
S-W2 2-FB pg10pn2-pg12 
AWC 84-FB pg11pn8 
S-W2 2-FB pg13pn1-pg13pn6 
AWC 84-FB pg12pn1 
S-W2 2-FB pg13pn7-pg14pn2 
AWC 84-FB pg12pn3 
S-W2 2-FB pg14pn3-pg14pn7 
AWC 84-FB pg12pn4-pg12pn5 
S-W2 2-FB pg15pn1-pg15pn3 
AWC 84-FB pg12pn6 
S-W2 2-FB pg15pn4 
AWC 84-FB pg13pn1 
S-W2 2-FB pg15pn5-pg16pn4 
AWC 84-FB pg13pn2-pg13pn3 
S-W2 2-FB pg16pn5-pg16pn8 
S-W2 2-FB pg19pn2-pg20 
S-W2 1 
S-W2 2 

MANIPULATOR II/ 
 
A 178 
CA 242 
*S-W2 2-FB 
AWC 82-BTS 
AWC 84-BTS 
AWC 85 
AWC 86 
*S-W2 3 
*S-W2 4 

THERAK/THEO 
*S-W2 2-FB 
{AWC 82} 
AWC 84 
AWC 85 
AWC 86 
*S-W2 1 
*S-W2 3 
*S-W2 4 
IM '99 

ANTRO/HASHI NOTO 
*S-W2 2-FB pg8pn2-pg8pn4 
*S-W2 2-FB pg9pn2 
*S-W2 2-FB pg11-pg12 
*AWC 84-FB pg11pn8 
*S-W2 2-FB pg13-pg16 
*S-W2 2-FB pg20 
{AWC 82} 
AWC 84 
AWC 85 
AWC 86 
*S-W2 3 
*S-W2 4 

ARACHNE/DR. SYLVIE YAQUA 
*S-W2 2-FB 
{AWC 82} 
AWC 84 
AWC 85 
AWC 86 
*S-W2 3 
*S-W2 4 

COOPER, DR. VALERIE 
XF 142-FB 
XF 142-FB 
AWC 84-FB pg11pn2 
{UX 176} 
NM 13 
S-W2 2-FB pg8pn2-pg8pn6 
S-W2 2-FB pg9pn2-pg9pn6 
AWC 84-FB pg11pn6 
S-W2 2-FB pg10pn2-pg12 
AWC 84-FB pg11pn8 
S-W2 2-FB pg13pn1-pg14pn2 
AWC 84-FB pg12pn3 
S-W2 2-FB pg14pn3-pg14pn7 
AWC 84-FB pg12pn4-pg12pn5 
S-W2 2-FB pg15pn1-pg15pn3 
AWC 84-FB pg12pn6 
S-W2 2-FB pg15pn4 
AWC 84-FB pg13pn1 
S-W2 2-FB pg15pn5-pg16pn4 
AWC 84-FB pg13pn3 
S-W2 2-FB pg16pn5-pg17pn4 
UX 183 
UX 184 
UX 185 
UX 186 
UX 190 
UX 199 
AWC 84-FB pg13pn6 
S-W2 2-FB pg18pn1 
XF 9 
A@ 15 
IM 214 
AWC 84-FB pg14pn4 
CA 333 
 
A 368 
XFOR 27 
*S-W2 2 
XF 97 
 

USAGENT/CAPTAIN JOHN WALKER/"JACK DANIELS" 
 
A 369 
*S-W2 1 
WITCH 1 
WITCH 2 
WITCH 3 
WITCH 4 
H2 411-FB 
AWC 102 
 

WAR MACHINE/JAMES R. "JIM" "RHODEY" RHODES 
 
IM 300 
*S-W2 2-BTS 
WITCH 1 
WITCH 2 
WITCH 3 
WITCH 4 
AWC 102 
 

SPIDER-WOMAN II/JULIA CARPENTER 
AWC 84-FB pg11pn2-pg11pn3 
PPTSS 125-FB 
S-W2 2-FB-BTS pg9pn5-pg9pn6 
AWC 84-FB pg11pn6 
S-W2 2-FB pg10pn2-pg12 
AWC 84-FB pg11pn8 
S-W2 2-FB pg13pn3-pg13pn6 
AWC 84-FB pg12pn1 
S-W2 2-FB pg13pn7-pg13pn8 
AWC 84-FB pg12pn2 
S-W2 2-FB pg14pn1-pg14pn2 
AWC 84-FB pg12pn3 
S-W2 2-FB pg14pn3-pg14pn7 
AWC 84-FB pg12pn4-pg12pn5 
S-W2 2-FB pg15pn1-pg15pn3 
AWC 84-FB pg12pn6 
S-W2 2-FB pg15pn4 
AWC 84-FB pg13pn1 
S-W2 2-FB pg15pn5-pg16pn4 
AWC 84-FB pg13pn2-pg13pn3 
S-W2 2-FB pg16pn5-pg17pn4 
AWC 84-FB pg13pn4 
{M/SHSW 6} 
M/SHSW 7 
M/SHSW 8 
M/SHSW 9 
M/SHSW 10 
M/SHSW 11 
M/SHSW 12 
AWC 84-FB pg13pn6 
S-W2 2-FB pg18pn1 
UX 206 
 
IM 214 
AWC 84-FB pg14pn1 
AWC 84-FB pg14pn3-pg14pn6 
PPTSS 125 
 
UX 307 
*S-W2 1 
*S-W2 2 
*S-W2 3 
*S-W2 4 
WITCH 1 
WITCH 2 
WITCH 3 
WITCH 4 
AWC 102 

_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Feb 2007 09:39 pm    
By SeanCurtin

There's also a flashback in S-H3 10 to Spider-Woman in Chicago during and prior to the Secret Wars. I'm not sure how that fits in here. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Posted: 06 Feb 2007 11:55 pm    Post subject: Analysis for Spider-Man and X-Factor: Shadowgames #1-3
By Kevin W.
Director

Spider-Man/X-Factor: Shadowgames #1 
Written by Kurt Busiek 
Pencils by Pat Broderick 
Inks by Bruce Patterson 

Appearances: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
THOMPSON, EUGENE "FLASH" 
JAMESON, J. JONAH 
ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE" 

HAVOK/ALEX SUMMERS 
POLARIS/LORNA DANE 
STRONG GUY/GUIDO CAROSELLA 
MULTIPLE MAN/JAMES ARTHUR "JAMIE" MADROX 
WOLFSBANE/RAHNE SINCLAIR 
FORGE 
(All 6 of which form the team X-Factor) 

New Characters: 
HARDTIME 
OVERSIZE 
AMBUSH 
AIRBORNE 
MIRRORSHADE 
FIREFIGHT 
(All 6 of which consist of the new villain team Shadowforce). 
GEN. MACAULEY SHARPE, (a rogue army general and creator of Shadowforce) 

Synopsis: Our story opens with Spider-Man under attack from a group calling themselves Shadowforce, who seek to capture Spider-Man. Flash Thompson is nearby in the streets, with a group of kids cheering on Spider-Man, (were told Flashs helping out with a local boys club). Spidey tells Flash to get the kids out of there. Spidey is distracted and is eventually captured by Shadowforce. 

Flash sees this capture, and goes to the Daily Bugle to report that Spideys in danger, (giving Robbie Robertson photos he took of Spidey in battle). Robbie tells Flash theyll look into it. Flash decided thats not good enough, and begins calling public superheroes. The Avengers and Fantastic Four arent at home, so he calls X-Factor, and when they ask if the people that attacked Spider-Man were mutants, Flash says yes (just to get somebody to come and investigate). 

X-Factor does indeed come and investigate the battle site in NYC. They are eventually able to ID the people who attacked Spidey as 6 different criminals, all of whom are supposed to be behind bars. When they call up the federal prisons to see if these convicts have been released, they get stonewalled by bureaucrats. X-Factor traces the phonecall back to a covert military base, and head that way 

Meanwhile, J. Jonah Jameson and Robbie Robertson weigh whether to do a story about Spider-Man being abducted. A federal agent stops by and tells Jonah to not publish the story, (and attempts to claim the photos that Flash took). Jonah rebukes the Federal agent and says hes making this his front page story. 

Meanwhile, Spidey wakes up in a secret laboratory, where hes about to be experimented upon, but he escapes his restraints. Sneaking around the base, he hacks into the computer system of this facility and discovers that this is Project: Homegrown a shadowy military project just outside Washington D.C. Its being run by a General Macauley Sharpe to try and create superheroes. Spidey figures out Gen. Sharpe has been illegally performing experiments on convicted criminals, (and thats who the members of Shadowforce consist ofconvicts whove been brainwashed into secret soldiers). Their mission to capture Spider-Man was the start of a new wave of the project in which they were to capture superheroes and take genetic samples from them, (to add to the projects database of superpowers). 

Spidey happens to see Mirrorshade, (the most insane of the convicts) has escaped and is heading back to New York City to kill Flash Thompson, (he mimics those he comes into contact with, and during the fight with Spider-Man, he picked up on Spideys anger at Flash, and becomes fixated on him). 

Just then, X-Factor bursts in to save Spidey, and the rest of Shadowforce burst in, (while Gen. Sharpe watches everything from a monitor screen overhead). He orders Shadowforce to kill them, and the two sides begin to battle 

References: 

Pgs. 4p2-5: FB-There is a flashback on this page showing what occurred just prior to the fight breaking out between Spider-Man and Shadowforce. Peter is dressed up as Spidey swinging over to where Flash Thompson lives, (Peter was invited to teach the kids about what a photographer does for a living). He hops on a roof and changes back into his civilian clothing and steps inside to find Flash has left the children of the boys club unattended. Flash caught a glance of Spidey swinging by overhead and dashed outside to see if he could get Spidey to come in and teach the kids about crimefighting. Flash steps back inside saying he mustve missed Spidey. 

Peter wants to scold Flash, but gives his speech about photography to the kidsbut a short time later, one of the kids sees Shadowforce flying by overhead just outside the window. Hardtime comments that they just had reports of Spidey swinging through this neighborhood and to be on the lookout. Peter races off, (saying hes got to take photographs for the Bugle) and changes into Spidey, and that brings us back to where we were on Pg. 1 of this story, as Spidey and Shadowforce did battle. 

Pg. 10: When Flash is calling up superheroes to look into Spider-Mans capture, we see the following sequence: Flash: Avengers Mansion? Id like to report a-Oh, nobodys home, huh? Then we see Fantastic Four? Out of town? He then calls X-Factor, and gets them to investigate. So during the time when this mini-series occurs, the Avengers and the Fantastic Four are not around. 

Pg. 19 and 20: As Spidey digs through the computer database, we see the following brief flashbacks: 

19p3-FB: This panel shows Gen. Sharpe yelling at a group of men, (soldiers underneath his command, Im led to believe). The narration by Spidey reads, Looks like the man in charge is Gen. Macauley Sharpe. I remember a Bugle piece on himtough, forceful. 

20p1-FB: This panel shows Hardtime, Ambush, and Airborne, before getting superpowers, and being led in handcuffs into the Project: Homegrown base. Theres another convict present stepping out of a prison transport, but I cant make out who it is. The idea is that this is all 6 prisoners being led into the military base to be brainwashed and given superpowers, but as we can only clearly see 3 of them, I suppose only those 3 deserve this flashback in their individual chronology. 

Spider-Man/X-Factor: Shadowgames #2 
Written by Kurt Busiek 
Pencils by Pat Broderick 
Inks by Bruce Patterson 

Appearances: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
THOMPSON, EUGENE "FLASH" 

HAVOK/ALEX SUMMERS 
POLARIS/LORNA DANE 
STRONG GUY/GUIDO CAROSELLA 
MULTIPLE MAN/JAMES ARTHUR "JAMIE" MADROX 
WOLFSBANE/RAHNE SINCLAIR 
FORGE-BTS 
(All 6 of which form the team X-Factor) 

HARDTIME 
OVERSIZE 
AMBUSH 
AIRBORNE 
MIRRORSHADE 
FIREFIGHT 
(All 6 of which consist of the new villain team Shadowforce). 
GEN. MACAULEY SHARPE 

Synopsis: Picks up right where we left off last issue. Spidey and X-Factor do battle with Shadowforce inside the Project: Homegrown base. Spidey says hes got to go after Mirrorshade, (to prevent him from killing Flash Thompson), and X-Factor covers him while he leaves the building in pursuit of Mirrorshade. Gen. Sharpe discovers that Spider-Man took a disk filled with data on the Project: Homegrown and orders Shadowforce to pursue Spider-Man. X-Factor, in turn, pursues Shadowforce. 

A short time later, Spidey catches up with Mirrorshade and attempts to stop him, but the villain slips away, (but not before Spidey plants a spider-tracer on him). Mirrorshade soon hitches a ride on a train to NYC. Spider-Man is now in civilian clothes and on another train for NYC, (following on the heels of Mirrorshade). Shadowforce is tracking Spidey through the disk he stole, and they burst onto the train and attack Spider-Man, (who slips back into his costume). X-Factor catches up and the battle resumes full-fledged on top of the moving train. 

Halfway through the battle, all of a sudden Shadowforce become disoriented momentarily. Hardtime mentions that they must be out of range from Project: Homegrowns transmission, and they have their own freewill again. They flee the battle catching X-Factor and Spidey off guard. 

A short time later in NYC, Flash Thompson is dismissing his boys club for the day, while Mirrorshade eyes his prey from a rooftop overhead. 

References: 

Pg. 11: Forge, (as far as I can tell) doesnt actually appear in this issue. While the rest of X-Factor is doing battle, Havok does make mention of Forge on this page though: Mirrorshades heading to New York, Spider-Mans chasing him, and Shadowforce is chasing HIMso while we wait for Forge to track down more information about these para-military weasels, the Big Apples where the action is! As Havok mentions that Forge is doing something pertaining to the plot, I believe that qualifies him for a BTS listing for this issue. 

Spider-Man/X-Factor: Shadowgames #3 
Written by Kurt Busiek 
Pencils by Pat Broderick 
Inks by Bruce Patterson 

Appearances: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
THOMPSON, EUGENE "FLASH" 
JAMESON, J. JONAH 
MERCADO, JOY 

HAVOK/ALEX SUMMERS 
POLARIS/LORNA DANE 
STRONG GUY/GUIDO CAROSELLA 
MULTIPLE MAN/JAMES ARTHUR "JAMIE" MADROX 
WOLFSBANE/RAHNE SINCLAIR 
FORGE 
(All 6 of which form the team X-Factor) 

HARDTIME 
OVERSIZE 
AMBUSH 
AIRBORNE 
MIRRORSHADE 
FIREFIGHT 
(All 6 of which consist of the new villain team Shadowforce). 
GEN. MACAULEY SHARPE 


Synopsis: J. Jonah Jameson is talking to one of his reporters, (named Mercado) over the phone. Jamesons Bugle has broken the story of Spidey fighting Shadowforce, and shes in Washington D.C. investigating. Mercado suddenly sees Shadowforce returning to Project: Homegrown and attacking it. 

Meanwhile, back in NYC, Mirrorshade launches an attack at Flash Thompson, but Spidey arrives just in time to save Flashs life. X-Factor arrives as well, but Mirrorshade is rescued by Airborne, (and the two of them fly off back to Washington D.C. to rejoin the other members of Shadowforce). 

Spider-Man and X-Factor get back on X-Factors jet and fly off back to Washington D.C. as well, (Forge has informed them that the other members of Shadowforce, who now have free-will having shrugged off Gen. Sharpes programming, have taken over Project: Homegrown). Spidey and X-Factor soon arrive back at Project: Homegrown, (which is now surrounded by the media). Gen. Sharpe is outside speaking to the reporters, and pinning the blame for everything on Shadowforce. 

The good guys burst back in and do battle with the bad guys. Mirrorshade dies when he tries to mimic Madroxs power of duplication, (Mirrorshades abilities wont work that way). Shadowforce sets off a series of bombs hoping to blow up the facility, (they had planned on blowing up the place and fleeing the country). Spider-Man convinces Hardtime that theres another way: with the disk of information that he has, they can prove Gen. Sharpe was behind it all, and that Shadowforce was brainwashed. Everyone survives the bombs due to Hardtime erecting his forcefields around all of them. Spidey turns the disk of information over to the press outside and Gen. Sharpe is arrested. 

The story ends with a brief epilogue which may be just a couple of days later. Peter and Flash are walking down the street together, and Flash apologizes to Peter for putting the boys club in danger just to be close to Spider-Man. The End. 

References: I was unfamiliar with the female reporter named Mercado that Jameson is talking to over the phone at the start of the issue, but upon checking the MCP, there is a listing for a Joy Mercado who has apparently made some appearances in the Spider-Man titles over the years. Im taking it that this is her, so she is listed in the appearances section above. Please correct me if Im wrong. 

Thoughts about placement: 

All 3 issues of this miniseries have an editors caption near the start of the issue which reads, Note: This story takes place before X-Factor #100. I think that settles the placement for X-Factor pretty well, so let me bring up Spideys chronology: 

The same month that this mini-series started, (Publication Date: May, 2004) in the Spider-Man books, the Pursuit storyline was wrapping up, (a plotline that ran through Spider-Man #45, Spectacular Spider-Man # 211, Web of Spider-Man #112, and Amazing Spider-Man #389). The Pursuit storyline followed immediately on the heels of Amazing Spider-Man #386-388, (the Lifetheft story arc) which ended with the demise of Peters parents, (they were clones or something like that, not his real parents). This lead to a period of several months worth of darker storylines in the Spider-Man books, (eventually leading full blown into the Clone Saga). 

I would suggest putting the Shadowgames mini-series just prior to Lifetheft (or somewhere around that time frame) as Spider-Man was his usual happy-go-lucky self in this mini-series, not the dark, grim figure he was following Lifetheft for several months. 

I checked the MCP on the off chance that the team members of Shadowforce have appeared elsewhere, and saw an Airborne and a Firefight already in the MCP. I noticed those two listed characters appeared in IM3 1, (which was written by Kurt Busiek, just like Shadowgames) and pulled out my copy of that issue. The Airborne and Firefight seen there are a part of a team called Deathsquad. Shadowforce was a team of super-powered criminals, Deathsquad is a team of armed mercenaries, and there is no connection, (thus, its interesting that Busiek would give two different creations of his the same name). 

Anyway, this would make the villians seen here in Shadowgames Airborne I and Firefight I, and bump the ones that appear in IM3 to Airborne II and Firefight II. 

Finally, heres how this mini-series should be added to the characters chronology: 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
SM/XF:SG 1-FB 
SM/XF:SG 1 
SM/XF:SG 2 
SM/SX:SG 3 

THOMPSON, EUGENE "FLASH" 
SM/XF:SG 1-FB 
SM/XF:SG 1 
SM/XF:SG 2 
SM/SX:SG 3 

JAMESON, J. JONAH 
SM/XF:SG 1 
SM/SX:SG 3 

ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE" 
SM/XF:SG 1 

HAVOK/ALEX SUMMERS 
SM/XF:SG 1 
SM/XF:SG 2 
SM/SX:SG 3 

POLARIS/LORNA DANE 
SM/XF:SG 1 
SM/XF:SG 2 
SM/SX:SG 3 

STRONG GUY/GUIDO CAROSELLA 
SM/XF:SG 1 
SM/XF:SG 2 
SM/SX:SG 3 

MULTIPLE MAN/JAMES ARTHUR "JAMIE" MADROX 
SM/XF:SG 1 
SM/XF:SG 2 
SM/SX:SG 3 

WOLFSBANE/RAHNE SINCLAIR 
SM/XF:SG 1 
SM/XF:SG 2 
SM/SX:SG 3 

FORGE 
SM/XF:SG 1 
SM/XF:SG 2-BTS 
SM/SX:SG 3 

HARDTIME 
SM/XF:SG 1-FB 
SM/XF:SG 1-FB 
SM/XF:SG 1 
SM/XF:SG 2 
SM/SX:SG 3 

OVERSIZE 
SM/XF:SG 1-FB 
SM/XF:SG 1 
SM/XF:SG 2 
SM/SX:SG 3 

AMBUSH 
SM/XF:SG 1-FB 
SM/XF:SG 1-FB 
SM/XF:SG 1 
SM/XF:SG 2 
SM/SX:SG 3 

AIRBORNE 
SM/XF:SG 1-FB 
SM/XF:SG 1-FB 
SM/XF:SG 1 
SM/XF:SG 2 
SM/SX:SG 3 

MIRRORSHADE 
SM/XF:SG 1-FB 
SM/XF:SG 1 
SM/XF:SG 2 
SM/SX:SG 3 

FIREFIGHT 
SM/XF:SG 1-FB 
SM/XF:SG 1 
SM/XF:SG 2 
SM/SX:SG 3 

GEN. MACAULEY SHARPE 
SM/XF:SG 1-FB 
SM/XF:SG 1 
SM/XF:SG 2 
SM/SX:SG 3 

MERCADO, JOY 
SM/SX:SG 3 

I hope that helps, let me know if I made any mistakes. It was a fun nostalgia trip going back and rereading these comics from the early 90s, (before the era of Onslaught and the start of the Clone Saga) and I may be up for doing some more comics from the 90s if needed. Thats it for now though.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Feb 2007 12:12 am    
By metaldragon

To narrow down X-Factor's appearance, there are a couple more clues: 

Continuity is pretty packed leading up to X-Factor #100 (the issue Shadowgames HAS to take place before) so we have to look at this era a little closer. 

Clues: X-Factor #96 is the beginning of the Haven storyline which leads up to the "death" of Multiple Man in X-Factor #100. There is no gap between XF 99 & 100 so we have to look for an earlier spot. XF 96 leads directly into XF 97 with no gap and XF 97 leads directly into XF 98 with no gap. There is a possible almost gap between XF 98 & 99, but that's right in the middle of the Haven story arc where Multiple Man's health and mental state are rapidly deteriorating and the team is rather divided on the Haven issue at that point, which makes it really awkward. 

Quicksilver is not with the team here so he must be on the extended leave of absence Forge approved right before XF 95. XF 95 is also the issue where Forge officially takes over Val Cooper's responsibilities and meets with Havok, even though Val handed off the position to him at the end of XF 93. Wolfsbane and Strong Guy leave for Muir Island in XF 94 and don't come back until the end of XF 95 so that leaves a possible but awkward (because Quicksilver's still with the team and Forge hasn't officially met them yet) gap between XF 93 & 94. 

Let's look at the best possible gap, the one between XF 95 & 96. It has two small drawbacks which can be explained away. 1) the last pannel of XF 95 has the caption "GULP! -- CONTINUED NEXT ISSUE!" but weirdly enough, it DOESN'T continue the next issue. XF 96 opens with X-Factor dealing with the aftermath of a terrorist bombing and there is no flashback to show what happened between the last pannel of XF 95 up to that point. In fact on page 13 of XF 96 Havok says it had been 4 days since Lorna was attacked by Random (in XF 95). 

Which directly leads us to 2) where Havok says to Forge "Four days I've been trying to reach you!" (since Random was hired to attack Lorna). It's possible that Shadowgames takes place the day after Lorna was attacked in XF 95 and Havok just wasn't able to talk to Forge during/after Shadowgames about it. Then Forge had to attend those meetings Havok mentions that made him unreachable during that time leading up to the beginning of XF 96. 

If you want me to do a more in depth analysis of XF 93-100, let me know.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:04 am    Post subject: February call for analyses
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Here is my updated call for analyses. As always, many thanks to everyone who volunteer!  

Completed stories (as of 1/31/07) 
Agents of Atlas #1-6 (Eric) 
Books of Doom #1-6 (Eric) 
Daredevil v2 #89-93 (Kevin) 
Daughters of the Dragon #1-6 
Franklin Richards: Son of a Genius Super Summer Spectacular 
Moon Knight v? #1-6 (Joe) 
Nextwave: Agents of H.A.T.E. #1-12 (Chris) 
Nick Furys Howling Commandos #1-6 (Russ) 
Reading to the Rescue #4 
Runaways v2 #19-21 (JD) 
Sentinel v2 #1-5 (JD) 
Thor: Son of Asgard #7-12 (John) 
Underworld #1-5 (Aaron) 

Future stuff 
Annihilation: Heralds of Galactus #1-2 (JLH) 
Blade v3 #6 (JLH) 
Blade v3 #7 (JLH) 
Blade v3 #8 (JLH) 
Daredevil v2 #94 (Kevin) 
Daredevil v2 #95-99 (Kevin) 
Doctor Strange: The Oath #1-5 (Frederic) 
Eternals v3 #1-7 (Eric) 
Franklin Richards: March Madness! 
Ghost Rider v5 #8-12 (JLH) 
Ghost Rider: Trail of Tears #1-6 (JLH) 
Hellstorm: Son of Satan #1-5 (Frederic) 
Immortal Iron Fist #1-6 (Don) 
Incredible Hulk v3 #100-103 (Kevin) 
Incredible Hulk v3 #104-105 (Kevin) 
Irredeemable Ant-Man #1-6 (Somebody) 
Legion of Monsters: Man-Thing #1 (JLH) 
Legion of Monsters: Werewolf By Night #1 (JLH) 
Marvel Westerns: Strange Westerns Featuring the Black Rider (Eric) 
Moon Knight v? #9-12 
Nova v4 #1-? (JLH) 
Punisher v7 #43-49 (Col_Fury) 
Punisher Presents: Barracuda #1-5 (Col_Fury) 
Punisher War Journal v2 #5 
Punisher War Journal v2 #6-? 
Runaways v2 #22-24 (JD) 
Runaways v2 #25-? 
Runaways Saga 
Spider-Man Family #1 
Spider-Man Family #2 
Thunderbolts Presents: Zemo  Born Better #2-4 (Sean K.) 
White Tiger #1-6 (Kevin) 
Wisdom #1-6 (Paul O.) 
Wolverine v3 #50-55 (Col_Fury) 
Wolverine: Origins #11-? (Col_Fury) 
X-23: Target X #1-6 (Paul O.)
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:24 pm; edited 5 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:56 am    
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Completed stories (as of 1/31/07) 
Runaways v2 #19-21 (JD) 
Runaways v2 #22-24 (JD) 
<<<

#24 is running quite late and isn't out yet (due 2/14, I think). 
I'll probably analyse the six of them in one batch. 

I'm signing up for Saga and #25-?, by the way.

		`	*	*	*

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:10 pm    
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Blade v3 #7 
Blade v3 #8 
<<<

Hellcows, Paul. 

Quote: 
>>>
Legion of Monsters: Man-Thing #1 
Legion of Monsters: Werewolf By Night #1 
<<<

I can do these. I've heard about both a future Morbius and/or Dracula special coming up which sounds especially interesting. 

Quote: 
>>>
Nova v4 #1-? 
<<<

Yes, sure, you've convinced me!

			*	*	*

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:37 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
Irredeemable Ant-Man #1-? 

Ah, what the hell, I'm finishing the first arc (#1-6) at least and I'm feeling masochistic 

			*	*	*

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:00 pm    
By DonCampbell

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Immortal Iron Fist #1-6 
<<<

If nobody else is interested, then I'd like to take a stab (or should that be a kick?) at this series. However, since this would be my first analysis of an ongoing series, I have one question. Should I post an analysis of each issue as they come out? Or is it better to hold off until the current storyline ends so that an analysis of the complete storyline can be posted all at once? 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:14 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Don. It may be best for you to wait until a complete story arc is done. Frequently you get flashbacks and mysterious character appearances that can't be hashed out until an arc is completed.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Posted: 14 Feb 2007 04:05 am    Post subject: Ghost Rider Finale! #94
By JLH

------------------------------------ 

GHOST RIDER FINALE! #94 [Jan 2007] 

Story 1: Reprint of GR3 93, "Wedding Of The Ghost Rider", with an introduction by Tom Brevoort, the textless cover, and two-page recap spread from the original issue's gatefold interior. 


--------------- 

Story 2: What was originally going to be GR3 94. 
Writer: Ivan Velez, Jr. 
Penciler: Javier Saltares 
Inkers: Mark Texeira, Javier Saltares & Klaus Janson 
"Acabado". 

Cast: 
KETCH, DANIEL "DANNY" 
BLAZE, JOHNNY 
KALE, JENNIFER (BTS) 
GHOST RIDER III/NOBLE KALE 
BLAZE, ROXANNE SIMPSON (as Black Rose) 
PAO FU/LIAN 
SKRITCH 
PLUTO 
HELA 
BELASCO 
DOLAN, STACY 
KALE, NAOMI (as a ghost) 
KALE, DANTE (as a spirit) 
DOGHEAD/CHIO 
VENGEANCE/MICHAEL BADILINO 
WALLOW 
VERMINUS REX 
URIEL 


Other characters: 
Various background demons of Hell 


Summary: So, now a month without having the curse of the Medallion, without a need to change into a Spirit of Vengeance when innocent blood is spilled, and without the distractions related to both, Dan Ketch is succeeding in college, he has friends, and a social service internship. Soon, his brother, Johnny Blaze, drops by his apartment, having ended his search for his children without success, due to a falling out with Jennifer Kale and a depletion of funds. Dan agrees to let him live with him, and they head out to drink some beers. 

Down in Hell, King Ghost Rider, aka Noble Kale, is bored with having two wives and running his own pan-dimensional kingdom. A meeting with ambassadors from other realms takes place, with only Pluto, Hela, and Belasco attending. They come not to condemn him, nor damn him, but to say they're too busy to be involved with the inevitable attempts to take control of Hell from him! 

Elsewhere, Stacy Dolan discovers she's pregnant. 

At the bar, Dan reveals to John that he's not only free of the hand-branding, but he met their mother. 

Speaking of Mom, the spirit of Naomi Kale remains in the castle in Hell, giving her two cents to King Noble, not entirely supportive of his plan. But she doesn't get to stay for long, as Dante Kale, Noble's long-dead little brother, appears, sent to escort Naomi back to the other side. Dante leaves Noble with a warning not to let the darkness in him swallow him up, lest the world go with it. 

Stacy Dolan leaves Danny Ketch a "dear John" (no, she's not writing to Blaze) letter, breaking up with him and revealing her intentions to agree to Ski's marriage proposal. 

So, in Hell, Ghost Rider, now with crown and cloak, addresses the assembled hoards of the underworld, his subjects. As their new king, his command is simple: he's giving them all their freedom, under the sole condition that they never do evil again. This attempt to give free will to the demons doesn't sit well with Uriel, the flamed-headed angel guy. He demands the scales on the balance of good & evil not be upset, but Noble is firmly set on this matter. The hope is that when Mephisto eventually returns he'll find his kingdom turned into a democracy, Ghost Rider's ultimate vengeance! Noble binds Uriel, and banishes him from his realm, though the angel promises he'll pay for it. Now that the freedom of the demons is complete, Ghost Rider summons his motorcycle and prepares to depart. Vengeance will rule by proxy, and the rest of the Spirits of Vengence will be governors. Noble promises to come back and see how they're doing. He takes Black Rose with him, which annoys his other Queen, Pau Fu, who threatens them. Noble kisses her goodbye, and reminds her he'll be back. 

Back in the Bronx, Johnny and Danny stumble home drunk. John's upset over missing his chance to meet their biological mother, and gets an even worse surprise when they bump into Roxanne, returned to her human form! She's barely recovered her memories and is still confused, making John think it's a trick. But he quickly accepts it and embraces her. Danny hears the trademark laughter of his former alter ego, and notices Ghost Rider riding his motorcycle through the air, passing over the World Trade Center with flaming trails. Noble is free at last, and has a job to do as Spirit of Vengeance. Danny thinks it a happy ending, figures Stacy might even accept his proposal and they'll go visit his mother down in Florida. Thinking the craziness in his life is over, Dan spots Naomi's fiery spirit across the street, with Dante Kale by her side, waving before they both vanish. 


Continuity notes: Dormammu and Satannish are mentioned as being likely to seek claim to Hell from Noble, and Mephisto is said to inevitably return, but no actions related to the story are even implied. 

The mystery of who the father of Stacy Dolan's child is, and if she even keeps is, is a tale likely never to be told. 

Similarly, Roxanne Blaze slipped into oblivion following this issue, having not been seen since. Last she was mentioned, she was dead again! What is she, the female Wonder Man? 

I ever tell you what Ivan's plans were for Blaze's kids, who also haven't been seen or mentioned since this issue was originally intended to be released? Wendigo had them, again! Hence the trail running cold in Canada. It's been a decade our time (longer than Johnny & Roxanne went without being seen prior to having the kids), meaning they're either long digested, or really a lot older! 

Dante Kale's appearance here harkens back to his previous ghostly appearances in GR3 76 and others. 


Goofs: No explaination is ever given for how Danny came back from the dead. There's even a page between the "issues" where they could have stuck a quickie new page showing his resurrection... something. The profile at the end sneaks in a claim that Noble revived Dan as a way of saying thanks to his former host. 


Calendar notes: It's been "33 days" since Dan has been Ghost Rider. Johnny was gone "months" looking for his kids. Takes place over the course of maybe one night. Full moon! 

--------------- 

And finally, a three-page handbook entry on Ghost Rider/Daniel Ketch, which covers the first year of the book waaaaaay too heavily. It also manages to downplay the PP:SM 93 tale's botched attempt to retcon away the Noble stuff, which Howard Mackie recently claimed was all Ralph Macchio's idea and wasn't done with any malice over Velez Jr's work (since he never read any of it). 
------------------------------------ 


The MCP style stuff. Note, I left out things added for characters like Roxanne, Johnny, Barbara and Naomi in my previous additions from GR5 analysis. Those should be considered first in updating the characters. Oh, and there's various GR2 related character appearances here, too, some Quentin Carnival regulars who slipped between the cracks. And confirmation of anything with a "?" by it is much appreciated. 

BELASCO 
... 
XCAL 103 
XU 9 
**GR:F 94/2 
XU 19 
BS:X 1 
... 

BLAZE, ROXANNE SIMPSON 
**M/AGE 87 
... 
GR2 28 
**GR2 80-FB 
GR2 75 
... 
GR3 50 
SOV 23-BTS 
**GR:C 
Becomes BLACK ROSE 
GR3 77 
GR3 78 
GR3 80 
GR3 81 
GR3 83 
GR3 86 
GR3 89 
GR3 90 
GR3 91 
GR3 92 
GR3 93 
**GR:F 94/2 

CLOWN/"CRAFTY" ELIOT FRANKLIN 
**GR2 73-FB 
H 3/2 
... 
M/TIO 76 
**GR2 66-BTS 
**GR2 69-BTS 
**GR2 70 
GR2 72 
**GR2 73-FB 
GR2 73 
**GR2 74-FB 
(GR2 74)=OMIT 
GR2 75 
GR2 80 
H2 292 
... 

**CORKY THE CLOWN/CORKY FRANKLIN 
GR2 73-FB 
{GR2 63} 
GR2 64 
GR2 65 
GR2 66 
GR2 69 
GR2 70 
GR2 71 
GR2 72 
GR2 73-FB 
GR2 75 
GR2 79 
GR2 80 

DOGHEAD/CHIO 
GR3 89 
GR3 90 
GR3 91 
GR3 92 
GR3 93 
**GR:F 94/2 

DOLAN, STACY 
... 
GR3 90 
GR3 91 
**GR:F 94/2 

FOWLER, RED 
GR2 63 
**GR2 64 
**GR2 65 
M/SH3 11 
**GR2 66 
**GR2 69 
**GR2 70 
**GR2 71 
**GR2 72 
**GR2 73 
**GR2 74-FB 
**GR2 74 
**GR2 75 
**TA 11 
**GR2 76 
**GR2 79 
**GR2 80 
**SOV 1 


**FREAKMASTER 
GR2 79-FB 
{GR2 70} 
GR2 75 
GR2 77-BTS 
GR2 78-BTS 
GR2 79 


GHOST RIDER II/JOHNNY BLAZE 
**M/AGE 87 
**GR3 14-FB (page 14, panel 1) 
**GR5 5-FB (page 6, panels 4 & 5; page 7) 
**GR3 14-FB (Page 14, panel 3) 
**{M/SPT 5-FB} (page 7, panels 3 & 4) 
**GR5 5-FB (page 8 panels 3 & 4) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 8, panels 1, 2) 
GR3 -1 
**GR5 5-FB (page 13, panels 2 to 6) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 8, panels 3 to 6 through page 9) 
**GR2 68-FB (page 6, panels 3, 4, & 5) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 10, panels 1, 2 & 3) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 10, panel 4) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 10, panel 5 through page 11 panel 3) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 12, all 6 panels, through page 13, panels 1-5) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 13, panels 6 & 7 through page 14, and page 15 panels 1 & 2) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 15, panels 3, 4 & 5 through page 16, panels 1, 2, & 3) 
**GR2 68-FB (page 10, panel 2) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 16, panels 3, 4, 5 & 6 through page 17 panels 1, 2 and 3) 
**GR2 68-FB (page 11, panel 1) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 17, panel 4) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 18, all 5 panels through page 19 panels 1, 2, 3 and 4) 
**GR3 14-FB (Page 14, panel 4) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 19, panels 5, 6 & 7 through page 20 panels 1 and 2) 
**GR5 5-FB (page 15, panels 2 and 3) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 20, panels 3, 4, 5) 
**M/SPT 5-FB (page 20, panel 6 through page 21, panels 1, 2, 3, 4, 5) 
{M/SPT 5} 
M/SPT 6 
M/SPT 7 
M/SPT 8 
M/SPT 9 
M/SPT 10 
M/SPT 11 
GR2 1 
GR2 2 
M/SPT 12 
GR2 3 
GR2 4 
GR2 5 
A 118 
(SOV 16-FB)-MOVE (the GR who kills Badilino's Dad is Zarathos controlled, not Johnny) 
M/TU 15 
GR2 6 
GR2 7 
GR2 8 
GR2 9 
GR2 11 
M/TIO 8 
GR2 12 
GR2 13 
GR2 35-FB 
GR2 14 
CHAMP 1 
CHAMP 2 
GR2 14 
GR2 15 
CHAMP 3 
GR2 16 
CHAMP 4 
M/PRM 28 
GR2 17 
GR2 18 
GR2 19 
DD 138 
GR2 20 
A 151 
CHAMP 7 
CHAMP 8 
CHAMP 9 
CHAMP 10 
GR2 21 
M/TE 13 
CHAMP 11 
CHAMP 12 
CHAMP 13 
GR2 22 
GR2 23 
GR2 24 
M/TU 58 
CHAMP 14 
CHAMP 15 
GR2 25 
HFLY 2 
IM@ 4 
SVTU 14 
CHAMP 16 
CHAMP 17 
PPTSS 17-FB 
PPTSS 18-FB 
GR2 26 
GR2 27 
GR2 28 
GR2 29 
GR2 30 
GR2 31 
GR2 32 
GR2 33 
GR2 34 
GR2 35 
GR2 36 
GR2 37 
GR2 38 
GR2 39 
GR2 40 
M/TU 91-BTS 
GR2 41 
GR2 42 
GR2 43 
GR2 44 
GR2 45 
GR2 46 
GR2 47 
GR2 48 
GR2 49 
GR2 50 
GR2 51 
GR2 51/2 
GR2 52 
GR2 53 
GR2 54 
GR2 55 
GR2 56 
GR2 57 
DEF 96 
GR2 58 
GR2 59 
GR2 60 
M/TIO 80 
**SOV 16-FB 
MSU 6-FB 
GR2 61 
GR2 62 
(GR2 63)-MOVE 
(M/SH3 11)-MOVE 
SS3 14-FB-BTS 
M/GN 1-BTS 
SS@ 6-FB-BTS 
A 214 
**GR2 63 
GR2 64 
GR2 65 
**M/SH3 11 
GR2 66 
GR2 67 
GR2 68 
GR2 69 
GR2 70 
GR2 71 
GR2 72 
GR2 73 
GR2 74-FB 
GR2 74 
GR2 75 
TA 11 
GR2 76 
GR2 77 
GR2 78 
GR2 79 
GR2 80 
GR2 81 
(becomes just BLAZE, JOHNNY) 
DEF 145 
DEF 146 
GR3 14-FB 
**GR5 5-FB 
GR3 10 
GR3 11 
GR3 12 
GR3 13 
GR3 14 
GR3 15 
GR3 16 
GR3 17 
GR3 18 
GR3 22 
GR3 24 
GR3 25 
GR3 27 
GR3 28 
SOV 1 
GR3 29 
MORBIUS 1 
SOV 2 
DHOLD 1 
SOV 3 
NS 1 
GR3 31 
GR3 32 
MSU 1 
SOV 4 
WOSM 95 
SOV 5 
WOSM 96 
SOV 6 
SOV 7 
SOV 8 
SOV 9 
SOV 10 
GR3 39 
SOV 12 
**SOV 11 (moved; doesn't take place numerically) 
NS 10 
SOV 13 
MSU 3 
SOV 14 
GR3 42 
SOV 15 
GR3 43 
SOV 16 
NS 14 
GR3 44 
M/CP 143 
DHOLD 15 
MORBIUS 16 
M/CP 144 
DRSTR3 60 
SOV 17 
NS 15 
GR3 45 
M/CP 146 
DRSTR3 61 
SOV 18 
MSU 4 
SOV 19 
SOV 20 
MSU 5/2 
BLAZE:LOB 1 
BLAZE:LOB 2 
BLAZE:LOB 3 
BLAZE:LOB 4 
SOV 21 
SOV 22 
GR3 50 
SOV 23 
BLAZE 1 
BLAZE 2 
BLAZE 3 
GR@ 2/3 
BLAZE 4 
BLAZE 5 
BLAZE 6-FB 
BLAZE 6 
BLAZE 7 
BLAZE 8 
BLAZE 9 (6 - 8:1)-FB 
BLAZE 9 (12 - 14)-FB 
BLAZE 9 
BLAZE 10 
BLAZE 11 
BLAZE 12 
GR:C 
OE 9 
GR3 72 
GR3 73 
GR3 74 
GR3 75 
GR3 76 
GR3 77 
GR3 78 
GR3 79 
GR3 80 
GR3 81 
GR3 82 
GR3 83 
GR3 84 
GR3 85 
GR3 86 
GR3 88 
GR3 89 
**GR:F 94/2 
XFOR '98 
(Becomes GHOST RIDER II again) 
GR:HL 1 
GR:HL 2 
GR:HL 3 
GR:HL 4 
GR:HL 5 
GR:HL 6 
TB 57 
TB 58-BTS 
(TW 18)-OMIT, he's not in this issue! 
... 

**GHOST RIDER III/NOBLE KALE 
GR3 42-FB 
GR3 92-FB 
GR3 78-FB 
GR3 80-FB 
GR3 92-FB 
GR3 78-FB 
GR3 92-FB 
GR3 89-FB (GR in WWI) 
(see also KETCH, NAOMI) 
GR3 -1 
(see also KETCH, DANIEL) 
{GR3 1} 
GR3 2 
GR3 3 
GR3 4 
GR3 5 
GR3 6 
FF 347 
FF 348 
FF 349 
M/CP 64 
M/CP 65 
M/CP 66 
M/CP 67 
M/CP 68 
M/CP 69 
M/CP 70 
M/CP 71 
GR3 7 
GR3 8 
GR3 9 
T 429 
T 430 
GR3 10 
GR3 11 
GR3 12 
DRSTR3 28 
MK3 25 
S-M 6 
S-M 7 
GR3 13 
GR3 14 
GR3 15 
GR3 16 
GR3 17 
GR3 18 
C&D3 17 
C&D3 18 
Q 22 
Q 23 
Q 24 
DAMCON3 4 
PWJ 29 
PWJ 30 
DD 294-BTS 
DD 295 
GR3 18 
M/CP 90/3 
M/CP 91/3 
M/CP 92/3 
M/CP 93/3 
M/CP 94/3 
M/CP 95/3 
M/CP 96/3 
M/CP 97/3 
M/HOL 1991/6 
HOD 
GR3 19 
GR3 20 
SLAP 4 
S-M 18 
S-M 22 
S-M 23 
DLOK2 9 
DLOK2 10 
GR3 21 
SLEEP 11 
GR3 22 
GR3 23 
M/CP 98/3 
M/CP 99/3 
M/CP 100/2 
M/CP 100/3 
M/CP 100/4 
M/CP 101/3 
M/CP 102/3 
M/CP 103/3 
M/CP 104/3 
M/CP 105/3 
M/CP 106/3 
M/CP 107/3 
M/CP 108/3 
M/CP 109/3 
M/CP 110/3 
M/CP 111/3 
M/CP 112/3 
M/CP 113/3 
M/CP 114/3 
M/CP 115/3 
M/CP 116/3 
M/CP 117/3 
M/CP 118/3 
GR3 24 
GR3 25-FB 
GR3 25 
X 8 
GR3 26 
X 9 
GR3 27 
GR3 28 
SOV 1 
GR3 29 
MORBIUS 1 
SOV 2 
GR3 30 
SOV 2 
DHOLD 1 
SOV 3 
NS 1 
GR3 31 
GR3 32 
DRSTR3 50 
MSU 1 
DHAWK 22 
DHOLD 5 
M/CP 119/3 
M/CP 120/3 
M/CP 121/3 
M/CP 122/3 
GR3 33 
SLEEPHS 
GR3 33 
GR3 34 
GR3 35 
GR3 36 
GR3 37 
GR3 38 
M/HOL 1993/5 
SOV 7/2 
SOV 8/2 
SOV 4 
WOSM 95 
SOV 5 
WOSM 96 
SOV 6 
SOV 7 
SOV 8 
SOV 9 
SOV 10 
GR3 39 
SOV 12 
NS 7 
M/CP 123/3 
M/CP 124/3 
M/CP 125/3 
M/CP 126/3 
M/CP 127/3 
M/CP 128/3 
M/CP 129/3 
M/CP 130/3 
FF 374 
SOV 11 
PWJ 57 
PWJ 58 
TER 13 
MSU 2/4 
M/CP 131/3 
M/CP 132/3 
M/CP 133/3 
M/CP 134/3 
M/CP 135/3 
M/CP 136/3 
NS 10 
GR3 40 
DHOLD 11 
MORBIUS 12 
SOV 13 
MSU 3 
GR@ 1 
GR@ 1/3 
M/CP 137/3 
M/CP 138/3 
M/CP 139/3 
M/CP 140/3 
M/CP 141/3 
M/CP 142/3 
GR3 41 
SOV 14 
MORBIUS 15 
GR3 42 
GR3 43 
SOV 16 
NS 14 
GR3 44 
M/CP 143 
DHOLD 15 
MORBIUS 16 
M/CP 144 
M/CP 144/2 
DRSTR3 60 
SOV 17 
NS 15 
GR3 45 
M/CP 145/3 
M/CP 146 
DRSTR3 61 
SOV 18 
MSU 4 
GR3 46-BTS 
GR3 49 
GR3 50 
GR3 50/2 
GR3 51 
BLAZE 1-FB 
GR@ 2 
MSU 7 
GR3 52 
GR3 53 
GR3 54 
GR3 55 
GR3 56 
GR3 57 
MORBIUS 29 
GRWP:DD 
W2 89 
GR3 58 
GR3 59 
GR3 60 
GR3 61 
GR3 62 
GR3 63 
GR3 64 
GR3 65 
DE:O 
DCVM 1 
DCVM 2 
DCVM 3-BTS 
DCVM 4-BTS 
GR3 66 
GR3 67 
GR3 68 
OE 4 
GR:C 
GR3 69 
OE 9 
M/FAN2 3 
GR3 70 
GR3 71 
GR3 72 
GR3 73 
GR3 74 
GR3 75 
GR3 76 
GR3 77 
GR3 78 
GR3 79 
GR3 80 
GR3 81 
GR3 82 
GR3 83 
GR3 84 
GR3 85 
GR3 86 
GR3 87 
GR3 88 
GR3 89 
V:SB 1 
V:SB 2 
GR3 90 
DD 372 
GR3 90 
GR3 91 
GR3 92 
GR3 93 
GR:F 94/2 
WBN2 6 
S-M 93 

HELA [ASGARDIAN] 
... 
T 502 
XFOR '97 
**GR:F 94/2 
T2 1 
T2 2 
... 


**KALE, DANTE 
GR3 92-FB-BTS 
{GR3 76} 
GR3 79 
GR:F 94/2 

KALE, JENNIFER 
... 
GR3 89 
**GR:F 94/2-BTS 
XFOR 85 
... 

**KALE, MAGDALENA 
GR3 78-FB 
GR3 80-FB 
GR3 92-FB 
GR3 78-FB 
{GR3 76-FB} 
GR3 92-FB 
GR3 80 

KALE, NAOMI 
**GR5 5-FB 
**GR3 84-FB-BTS 
{GR3 -1} 
**GR3 89 
**GR3 90 
**GR3 91 
**GR3 92 
**GR3 93 
**GR:F 94/2 

**KALE, PASTOR 
GR3 78-FB 
GR3 80-FB 
GR3 92-FB 
{GR3 76-FB} 
GR3 78-FB 
GR3 92-FB 
GR3 -1 

KETCH, BARBARA 
... 
GR3 7 
**GR:C 
**GR3 77-BTS 
**GR3 81 
**GR3 82 
**GR3 83 
GR3 84 
GR3 85 

**KETCH, DANIEL "DANNY" 
GR5 5-FB 
GR3 84-FB 
GR3 -1 
MARVELS 4 
(see also GHOST RIDER III/Noble Kale) 
{GR3 1} 
GR3 2 
GR3 3 
GR3 4 
GR3 5 
GR3 6 
FF 347-BTS 
FF 348-BTS 
FF 349-BTS 
M/CP 64-BTS 
M/CP 65 
M/CP 66 
M/CP 67-BTS 
M/CP 68-BTS 
M/CP 69-BTS 
M/CP 70-BTS 
M/CP 71-BTS 
GR3 7 
GR3 8 
GR3 9 
T 429 
T 430 
GR3 10 
GR3 11 
GR3 12-BTS 
DRSTR3 28-BTS 
MK3 25-BTS 
S-M 6-BTS 
S-M 7-BTS 
GR3 13 
GR3 14 
GR3 15 
GR3 16 
GR3 17 
GR3 18 
C&D3 17-BTS 
C&D3 18-BTS 
Q 22-BTS 
Q 23-BTS 
Q 24-BTS 
DAMCON3 4-BTS 
PWJ 29-BTS 
PWJ 30 
DD 294-BTS-BTS 
DD 295 
GR3 18 
M/CP 90/3 
M/CP 91/3-BTS 
M/CP 92/3-BTS 
M/CP 93/3-BTS 
M/CP 94/3-BTS 
M/CP 95/3-BTS 
M/CP 96/3-BTS 
M/CP 97/3-BTS 
M/HOL 1991/6-BTS 
HOD 
GR3 19 
GR3 20 
SLAP 4-BTS 
S-M 18-BTS 
S-M 22-BTS 
S-M 23-BTS 
DLOK2 9 
DLOK2 10-BTS 
GR3 21 
SLEEP 11 
GR3 22 
GR3 23-BTS 
M/CP 98/3 
M/CP 99/3 
M/CP 100/2 
M/CP 100/3-BTS 
M/CP 100/4-BTS 
M/CP 101/3-BTS 
M/CP 102/3-BTS 
M/CP 103/3-BTS 
M/CP 104/3-BTS 
M/CP 105/3-BTS 
M/CP 106/3-BTS 
M/CP 107/3-BTS 
M/CP 108/3 
M/CP 109/3 
M/CP 110/3 
M/CP 111/3 
M/CP 112/3 
M/CP 113/3 
M/CP 114/3-BTS 
M/CP 115/3-BTS 
M/CP 116/3-BTS 
M/CP 117/3-BTS 
M/CP 118/3-BTS 
GR3 24 
GR3 25-FB-BTS 
GR3 25 
X 8-BTS 
GR3 26 
X 9 
GR3 27 
GR3 28 
SOV 1-BTS 
GR3 29 
MORBIUS 1-BTS 
SOV 2-BTS 
GR3 30 
SOV 2-BTS 
DHOLD 1-BTS 
SOV 3-BTS 
NS 1-BTS 
GR3 31 
GR3 32 
DRSTR3 50-BTS 
MSU 1-BTS 
DHAWK 22-BTS 
DHOLD 5-BTS 
M/CP 119/3-BTS 
M/CP 120/3-BTS 
M/CP 121/3-BTS 
M/CP 122/3-BTS 
GR3 33 
SLEEPHS-BTS 
GR3 33 
GR3 34 
GR3 35 
GR3 36 
GR3 37-BTS 
GR3 38-BTS 
M/HOL 1993/5-BTS 
SOV 7/2 
SOV 8/2-BTS 
SOV 4 
WOSM 95-BTS 
SOV 5-BTS 
WOSM 96-BTS 
SOV 6-BTS 
SOV 7-BTS 
SOV 8-BTS 
SOV 9-BTS 
SOV 10-BTS 
GR3 39 
SOV 12-BTS 
NS 7-BTS 
M/CP 123/3 
M/CP 124/3 
M/CP 125/3 
M/CP 126/3 
M/CP 127/3-BTS 
M/CP 128/3-BTS 
M/CP 129/3 
M/CP 130/3 
FF 374-BTS 
SOV 11-BTS 
PWJ 57-BTS 
PWJ 58-BTS 
TER 13-BTS 
MSU 2/4 
M/CP 131/3 
M/CP 132/3 
M/CP 133/3-BTS 
M/CP 134/3-BTS 
M/CP 135/3-BTS 
M/CP 136/3 
NS 10-BTS 
GR3 40-BTS 
DHOLD 11-BTS 
MORBIUS 12-BTS 
SOV 13-BTS 
MSU 3-BTS 
GR@ 1 
GR@ 1/3 
M/CP 137/3 
M/CP 138/3-BTS 
M/CP 139/3-BTS 
M/CP 140/3-BTS 
M/CP 141/3-BTS 
M/CP 142/3-BTS 
GR3 41 
SOV 14 
MORBIUS 15-BTS 
GR3 42 
GR3 43 
SOV 16 
NS 14-BTS 
GR3 44-BTS 
M/CP 143-BTS 
DHOLD 15-BTS 
MORBIUS 16-BTS 
M/CP 144-BTS 
M/CP 144/2-BTS 
DRSTR3 60-BTS 
SOV 17-BTS 
NS 15-BTS 
GR3 45-BTS 
M/CP 145/3-BTS 
M/CP 146-BTS 
DRSTR3 61-BTS 
SOV 18 
MSU 4-BTS 
GR3 46-BTS 
GR3 49-BTS 
GR3 50 
GR3 50/2 
GR3 51 
BLAZE 1-FB-BTS 
GR@ 2-BTS 
MSU 7 
GR3 52 
GR3 53 
GR3 54 
GR3 55 
GR3 56 
GR3 57 
MORBIUS 29 
GRWP:DD 
W2 89-BTS 
GR3 58 
GR3 59 
GR3 60 
GR3 61 
GR3 62 
GR3 63 
GR3 64-BTS 
GR3 65 
DE:O 
DCVM 1-BTS? 
DCVM 2-BTS? 
DCVM 3-BTS-BTS? 
DCVM 4-BTS-BTS? 
GR3 66 
GR3 67 
GR3 68-BTS 
OE 4 
GR:C 
GR3 69 
OE 9 
M/FAN2 3-BTS 
GR3 70 
GR3 71 
GR3 72 
GR3 73-BTS 
GR3 74 
GR3 75 
GR3 76-BTS 
GR3 77 
GR3 78 
GR3 79 
GR3 80-BTS 
GR3 81 
GR3 82 
GR3 83 
GR3 84 
GR3 85 
GR3 86 
GR3 87-BTS 
GR3 88 
GR3 89 
V:SB 1 
V:SB 2-BTS 
GR3 90 
DD 372-BTS 
GR3 90 
GR3 91 
GR3 92 
GR3 93 
GR:F 94/2 
S-M 93 

**MADAME OLGA 
GR2 66 
GR2 71 
GR2 72 
GR2 74 

ORB/DRAKE SHANNON 
(real name added) 
**M/TU 15-FB 
{M/TU 15} 
GR2 14 
... 

PAO FU/LIAN 
GR3 88-FB 
GR3 88 
GR3 90 
GR3 91 
GR3 92 
GR3 93 
**GR:F 94/2 

PLUTO [OLYMPIAN] 
... 
A@ 23 
T@ 19 
**GR:F 94/2 
XFOR '98 
T2 7 
... 


**QUENTIN, CALEB 
GR3 78-FB 

QUENTIN, RALPH 
GR2 63 
**GR2 64 
**GR2 69 
**GR2 70 
**GR2 71 
**GR2 72 
**GR2 73 
**GR2 74-FB 
**GR2 74 
**GR2 75 
**GR2 76 
**GR2 79 
**GR2 80 

**RANDOLPH, CYNTHIA 
GR2 63 
GR2 64 
GR2 65 
GR2 66 
GR2 69 
GR2 70 
GR2 71 
GR2 72 
GR2 73 
GR2 74-FB 
GR2 74 
GR2 75 
GR2 76 
GR2 79 
GR2 80 

**RENALDO 
GR2 70 
GR2 77-FB 
GR2 75 
GR2 77 
GR2 78 
GR2 79 

SCARECROW/EBENEZER LAUGHTON 
GR@ 2-FB 
**{TOS 51} (should reflect first appearance) 
UTSM 22 
FF@ 3 
UX 22 
UX 23 
CA 158 
CA 159 
CA@ 6 
CA 279 
CA 280 
ASPOT 26 
ASPOT 26/2 
AV 
GR3 7 
**[GR/CA:F] 
GR3 38 
DRSTR3 61 
GR@ 2 
GR3 63 
GR3 64 
GR3 65 
DCVM 1-BTS 
DCVM 2 
DCVM 3-BTS 
DCVM 4-BTS 
**GR:C 
**GR3 77-BTS 
GR3 81 
GR3 82 
GR3 83 
GR3 84 
GR3 85 
GR3 86 
A3 64 
ALIAS 26-BTS 

SIMPSON, "CRASH"/"CURLY SAMUELS" 
**M/SPT 10-FB (during his cop days) 
**M/TU 15-FB (during his early biker days) 
**M/AGE 87-BTS (Johnny's delivering a letter to him from his father) 
**GR3 14-FB (Page 14, panel 3) 
**{M/SPT 5-FB} (page 7, panels 3 & 4) 
... 


**SIN EATER/PASTOR ETHAN DOMBLUE 
GR2 80-FB 
{GR2 80} 
GR2 81 

SKRITCH 
... 
GR3 93 
**GR:F 94/2 

URIEL 
GR3 92-FB 
**BLAZE 10-BTS 
**BLAZE 11 
**BLAZE 12 
**GR:F 94/2 

VENGEANCE/MICHAEL BADILINO 
GR3 91 
GR3 93 
**GR:F 94/2 

VERMINUS REX 
**GR3 89-FB 
{GR3 89} 
GR3 90 
GR3 91 
GR3 92 
GR3 93 
**GR:F 94/2 

**VINCENZO 
GR2 75 
GR2 77 
GR2 79 
GR2 80 

WALLOW 
... 
GR3 93 
**GR:F 94/2 

WOLF 
**GR3 78-FB 
**GR3 80-FB 
GR3 -1 
... 

ZARATHOS 
**SOV 16-FB 
**GR3 42-FB-BTS 
**GR3 43-FB 
MSU 4-FB 
**GR2 77-FB 
BFF:S 3 
(See also Ghost Rider II/Johnny Blaze) 
**M/SPT 5-FB-BTS (page 19, panels 5, 6 & 7 through page 20 panels 1 and 2) 
**GR5 5-FB-BTS (page 15, panels 2 and 3) 
**M/SPT 5-FB-BTS (page 20, panels 3, 4, 5) 
**M/SPT 5-FB-BTS (page 20, panel 6 through page 21, panels 1, 2, 3, 4, 5) 
M/SPT 5-BTS 
M/SPT 6-BTS 
M/SPT 7-BTS 
M/SPT 8-BTS 
M/SPT 9-BTS 
M/SPT 10-BTS 
M/SPT 11-BTS 
GR2 1-BTS 
GR2 2-BTS 
M/SPT 12-BTS 
GR2 3-BTS 
GR2 4-BTS 
GR2 5-BTS 
A 118-BTS 
M/TU 15-BTS 
GR2 6-BTS 
GR2 7-BTS 
GR2 8-BTS 
GR2 9-BTS 
GR2 11-BTS 
M/TIO 8-BTS 
GR2 12-BTS 
GR2 13-BTS 
GR2 35-FB-BTS 
GR2 14-BTS 
CHAMP 1-BTS 
CHAMP 2-BTS 
GR2 14-BTS 
GR2 15-BTS 
CHAMP 3-BTS 
GR2 16-BTS 
CHAMP 4-BTS 
M/PRM 28-BTS 
GR2 17-BTS 
GR2 18-BTS 
GR2 19-BTS 
DD 138-BTS 
GR2 20-BTS 
A 151-BTS 
CHAMP 7-BTS 
CHAMP 8-BTS 
CHAMP 9-BTS 
CHAMP 10-BTS 
GR2 21-BTS 
M/TE 13-BTS 
CHAMP 11-BTS 
CHAMP 12-BTS 
CHAMP 13-BTS 
GR2 22-BTS 
GR2 23-BTS 
GR2 24-BTS 
M/TU 58-BTS 
CHAMP 14-BTS 
CHAMP 15-BTS 
{GR2 25} 
HFLY 2-BTS 
IM@ 4-BTS 
SVTU 14-BTS 
CHAMP 16-BTS 
CHAMP 17-BTS 
PPTSS 17-FB-BTS 
PPTSS 18-FB-BTS 
GR2 26 
GR2 27-BTS 
GR2 28-BTS 
GR2 29 
GR2 30 
GR2 31 
GR2 32 
GR2 33 
GR2 34 
GR2 35 
GR2 36 
GR2 37 
GR2 38 
GR2 39 
GR2 40 
M/TU 91 
GR2 41 
GR2 42 
GR2 43 
GR2 44 
GR2 45 
GR2 46 
GR2 47 
GR2 48 
GR2 49 
GR2 50 
GR2 51 
GR2 51/2 
GR2 52 
GR2 53 
GR2 54 
GR2 55 
GR2 56 
GR2 57 
DEF 96 
GR2 58 
GR2 59 
GR2 60 
M/TIO 80 
SOV 16-FB 
MSU 6-FB 
GR2 61 
GR2 62 
SS3 14-FB 
M/GN 1 
SS@ 6-FB 
A 214 
GR2 63 
GR2 64 
GR2 65 
M/SH3 11 
GR2 66 
GR2 67 
GR2 68 
GR2 69 
GR2 70 
GR2 71 
GR2 72 
GR2 73 
GR2 74 
GR2 75 
TA 11 
GR2 76 
GR2 77 
GR2 78 
GR2 79 
GR2 80 
GR2 81 
ASM 274 
T 430-BTS 
(SOV 16-FB)-OMIT 
GR3 43 
SOV 16 
GR3 44 
M/CP 143 
DHOLD 15 
MORBIUS 16 
M/CP 144/2 
SOV 17 
NS 15 
GR3 45 
M/CP 145/3 
DHOLD 16 
DRSTR3 61 
SOV 18 
MSU 4 
**GR:C

Last edited by JLH on 01 Jun 2007 02:45 am; edited 5 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Feb 2007 05:58 am    
By Somebody

Couple of minor things: 
*The coding's inconsistant - Belasco, Hela and Pluto are listed for G:F 94 rather than GR:F 94 (nice compromise, BTW). Plus, technically it's GR:F 94/2. 
*Pastor Kale's listing excludes GR3 -1 (he's the one telling Naomi that even if Blaze can't be THE Ghost Rider, he can still be A Ghost Rider as she dies - Mephisto made him immortal to brand Noble's descendents in 92-FB). Thusly: 

KALE, PASTOR 
GR3 78-FB 
GR3 80-FB 
GR3 92-FB 
{GR3 76-FB} 
GR3 78-FB 
GR3 92-FB 
**GR3 -1 

Otherwise, looks good AFAICS right now.

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Feb 2007 07:49 am    
By Somebody

Another thought - for consistency's sake, shouldn't it be: 

**GHOST RIDER III/NOBLE KALE 
GR3 42-FB 
GR3 92-FB 
GR3 78-FB 
GR3 80-FB 
GR3 92-FB 
GR3 78-FB 
GR3 92-FB 
GR3 89-FB (GR in WWI) 
**(see also KALE, NAOMI) 
GR3 -1 
(see also KETCH, DANIEL) 
{GR3 1} 
GR3 2 
GR3 3 
[etc]

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2007 01:33 am    
By JLH

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Couple of minor things: 
*The coding's inconsistant - Belasco, Hela and Pluto are listed for G:F 94 rather than GR:F 94 (nice compromise, BTW). Plus, technically it's GR:F 94/2. 
<<<

I've been trying to recall the specifics of the MCP rule for reprints. I thought I'd heard (err, read) Russ or someone mention that we ignore reprints like we ignore counting ads in page numbers. But maybe I'm wrong. 

Speaking of wrong, a goof I forgot to mention: The "Jan" on the cover is neither correct for the month of the special itself, nor for the original publication of issue 94 (it'd have been March in both regards). 

Quote: 
>>>
*Pastor Kale's listing excludes GR3 -1 (he's the one telling Naomi that even if Blaze can't be THE Ghost Rider, he can still be A Ghost Rider as she dies - Mephisto made him immortal to brand Noble's descendents in 92-FB). Thusly: 
<<<

You're right, I'd forgotten that (a side effect of so much skimming over hundreds of issues in such a short amount of time). That was why they threw in the "Pastor Kale is still alive!" thing during the regular run. 

Here's something never addressed: why did Ghost Rider find Centurious' face under the mask so familiar during "Road to Vengeance"? There's a loose end forgotten to the sands of time...

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2007 01:40 am    
By JLH

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Another thought - for consistency's sake, shouldn't it be: 

**GHOST RIDER III/NOBLE KALE 
GR3 42-FB 
GR3 92-FB 
GR3 78-FB 
GR3 80-FB 
GR3 92-FB 
GR3 78-FB 
GR3 92-FB 
GR3 89-FB (GR in WWI) 
**(see also KALE, NAOMI) 
GR3 -1 
(see also KETCH, DANIEL) 
{GR3 1} 
GR3 2 
GR3 3 
[etc] 
<<<

Yes. And in that regard (god, I say that word way too much), Zarathos should probably have a notation for when he merged with Max Parrish during "Before the Four: The Storms" #3. Or not, since it was only for a few pages, really. 

Oh, and I should add Marvel Age #87. Fred Hembeck's "Lil' Blazer" is about as much canon as his "Lil' Petey" strips.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Feb 2007 10:33 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

JLH wrote: 
>>>
I've been trying to recall the specifics of the MCP rule for reprints. I thought I'd heard (err, read) Russ or someone mention that we ignore reprints like we ignore counting ads in page numbers. But maybe I'm wrong... 
<<<

I don't think anyone in charge has said that. Somebody is correct; we would treat reprinted stories as "stories", when it comes to counting the stories in a book. 


watching: something on hgtv (yes, i'm being domesticated)

			*	*	*

Posted: 17 Feb 2007 02:10 am    
By JLH

I should stop listening to those Rogue Watchers, then. 

Thanks for clarifying!

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Posted: 10 Feb 2007 04:07 am    Post subject: Ghost Rider vol 5 #6-7
By JLH

GHOST RIDER VOL 5 #6 [February 2007] 
Writer: Daniel Way 
Artist: Richard Corben 
"Hell To Pay, Part One" 

Cast: 
GHOST RIDER II/JOHNNY BLAZE (also in FB) 
SATAN/"MARDUK KURIOS" (also BTS in FB) 

Other characters: 
Churchgoers awaiting Baptism (one dies) 
Preacher that Lucifer is possessing 
Arvis (Sheriff for Lynchburg, TN) 
Clay (suspect in killing and Hell's Angel member) 
Mr Bedelstraum (Lawyer and Demon) 


Summary: So, Lucifer is possessing the recently dead body of a preacher, and uses the guise to "accidentally" kill a woman during an old fashioned river baptism. Luckily Ghost Rider appears and runs off the remaining congregation, and reveals Satan in his true form. All the recent killing of other Lucifer-possessees is now working against Johnny, as this Satan is far more powerful, yanking the chain wrapped around his arm and smashing GR against a tree. Then he grabs his neck and smacks him so hard his jaw comes loose. Ghost Rider finally fights back, using his flame-breathe and toasting his foe for the moment. After fixing his jaw, he approached the downed Lucifer, who plays possum until Johnny's within reach, then he yanks off his left leg, from the knee down, and beats him over the head with it! This reminds Johnny that in order to beat this clearly superior shade of Satan he has to let go to the Spirit of Vengeance within him. 


Flashback: Some time ago, before he was sent to Hell and when he was living as a vagrant, Johnny is picked up by a Sheriff named Arvis in the small town of Lynchburg, TN. He's thrown in a cell with another man, named Clay. It seems someone killed a local bartender, and all the "undesirables" are being rounded up to find someone to pin it on. Johnny's not especially concerned, having tamed his inner demons, and Clay, he claims to have a hell of a lawyer. Soon, both Johnny and Clay are released on bail, thanks to Clay's lawyer, Mr Bedelstraum. In a limo, Johnny is convinced to provide an alibi for Clay in exchange for the lawyer's services. He agrees, since there's no chance of getting a fair trial in that town, and learns that Clay is actually richer than he looks, as the limo is his. He holds a high position with the Hell's Angels. 

Goofs: The front of the police department has a crudely written sign saying what looks to be "Hawksville, TN" instead of Lynchburg. 


Calendar notes: Alternates between the present and FB sequences to "A Long Time Ago" to the town of Lynchburg, Tennessee. Obviously, the FBs take place before the "Road to Damnation" mini-series, but after the Hammer Lane stuff. It's long sleeve weather with brownish, dying leaves on some of the trees in the FB, while green and full in the present time. 

Page 0: Recap. 
Pages 1-4: Ghost Rider tracks down another piece of Lucifer in the body of a baptist preacher, but finds this one stronger for the loss of the previous pieces. 
Pages 5-9: FB. "A Long Time Ago". Late in the afternoon, outside Lynchburg, Johnny is picked up by Sheriff Arvis and thrown in jail with a man named Clay. 
Pages 10-15: Ghost Rider fights Satan, and repeatedly loses in the battle. He eventually loses his left calf, and realizes he has to let go to the Spirit of Vengeance to win. 
Pages 16-22: FB. The next morning, circa 7am, Johnny is freed on bail. He joins Clay in his limo, and meets with Bedelstraum, the lawyer. A deal is made to have Johnny provide an alibi for Clay. 


------------------------------------ 

GHOST RIDER VOL 5 #7 [March 2007] 
Writer: Daniel Way 
Artist: Richard Corben 
"Hell To Pay, Part Two" 

Cast: 
GHOST RIDER II/JOHNNY BLAZE (also in FB) 
SATAN/"MARDUK KURIOS" (also in FB) 

Other characters: 
Preacher that Lucifer is possessing (dies) 
Arvis 
James Strahorn (DA for Moore County and Angel) 
Clay (dies) 
Mr Bedelstraum 


Summary: Ghost Rider recovers and regrows his leg, his attitude shifting to one a lot more confident and focused, making Satan realize that Johnny's given in to the Spirit of Vengeance. Lucifer seems actually excited, since GR's more "fun" when he's around. Ghost Rider sets ablaze the tall wooden cross the baptists were using nearby, and flings it mystically through the air into Satan's chest, and implaing him against a pickup truck someone left behind. The truck then explodes, destroying Satan's current possessed body. With the trouble over, Ghost Rider reverts back to Johnny Blaze, who's confused about what went on while he was out of control, but he's sure GR handled it. He departs the scene on foot. 


Flashback: Arvis informs the District Attorney, James Strahorn, that Johnny and Clay were bailed out by his old enemy, Bedelstraum. Annoyed, Strahorn, claiming the people he works for want results, urges Arvis to pressure Blaze until he does something stupid they can hold him for. Elsewhere in Lynchburg, Johnny hangs out at a local garage tuning up some motrocycles. It turns out Clay owns all the bikes there, and with Johnny's custom cycle in the impound lot, he's given his pick of any one to join Clay in taking a ride. While out letting go of his worries and riding around, Arvis trails the pair. Clay pulls a gun and prepares to shoot, when Arvis smashes into both of them. The handgun ends up near Johnny, and as it's unlicensed, Arvis is able to arrest Blaze again. Bedelstraum bails him out again, and gets him to the limo and out of the area. Arvis breaks the news to Strahorn, who's furious to lose him again, but as the sheriff explains, Johnny didn't threaten him or do anything to held, his buttons seemingly unpushable. Strahorn decides to pray, hoping his rivals don't know how to push his buttons either. So, Clay joins Johnny and Bedelstraum in the limo, and it's revealed that the handgun was the one used to kill that fat barkeep! Bedelstraum and Clay set Blaze up, and now egg him on, urging for him to try to seek out vengeance. They get what they want, Johnny starts to turn into the Ghost Rider, and Clay shoots him in the face. Johnny Blaze plummets through a dark void on fire, and by the time he reaches the bottom, he's completed the change to Ghost Rider, damning both himself and his altar ego. Satan awaits him amid fiery building ruins, informing him it's time to pay up. Back on Earth, Clay goes to his "final reward" by putting the gun he just killed Johnny with in his mouth and pulling the trigger. Bedelstraum, confirming he was working for Satan, gets a call from Strahorn and goes to the Moore County courthouse. Strahorn and the people he works for are prepared to offer a deal. As we see their shadows, it's revealed Bedelstraum is actually a furry horned demon, and Strahorn a halo and winged Angel! 

Continuity notes: This concludes the "how did Johnny get sent to Hell" story. Now, if only they could explain how he became GR again in the first place, we'd be all set. 

Goofs: This completely tosses out the one panel FB from the "Road to Damnation" mini that showed Johnny being drug off to hell by some demons in the desert. 

Calendar notes: This issue still alternates between the present and FB sequences to "A Long Time Ago". 

Page 0: Recap. 
Pages 1-2: Ghost Rider regrows his leg as the Spirit of Vengeance is given control of his body by Johnny. 
Pages 3-8: FB. DA Strahorn urges Arvis to apply pressure on Johnny. While Blaze and Clay are out riding, Arvis hits them, and finds Clay's gun nearby, pinning it on Johnny. 
Pages 9-13: Ghost Rider sets ablaze a cross, impales Satan with it into a truck, and blows both them up. He then turns back to Johnny, and leaves. 
Pages 14-22: FB. Johnny's bailed out by Bedelstraum, and learns he and Clay set him up for the murder of the bartender "several nights ago". Johnny is tricked into seeking vengeance, and just as he's turning into Ghost Rider, he's shot and killed, sending him to Hell. Clay kills himself, as per his orders. Bedelstraum then meets with Strahorn, the pair revealed to be a Demon and Angel respectively, as Heaven is seeking to make a deal with Hell over the case of Johnny Blaze.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Feb 2007 06:10 am    
By Col_Fury

JLH wrote: 
>>>
This concludes the "how did Johnny get sent to Hell" story. Now, if only they could explain how he became GR again in the first place, we'd be all set.  
<<<

Oh, good. So I'm not the only one that's confused. 

I mean, is Johnny bonded to Zarathos again? Or is it a completely new bonding? Or something else?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Feb 2007 11:35 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

The "say what?" factor seems to be ratcheted up at Marvel these days. Thanks for the analysis, JLH.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Feb 2007 08:18 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

What's mystifying me is: why did Clay and the lawyer have to wait until the end of the 2nd issue of this arc to kill him? If all it takes to send Johnny to hell is to put a bullet in his head, then why didn't they do that the first time they climbed into the limo?!?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Feb 2007 11:33 pm    
By JLH

In order to send him to Hell, they had to make him turn into Ghost Rider. Notice, in the first issue, Johnny's in a state of Zen about things. Nothing's pressing his buttons. Both the Angels AND Demons were trying to set him off so he'd turn into the Ghost Rider, since it seems to be during the transformation that he's most vulnerable. It does explain how he ended up going to Hell as Ghost Rider, rather than merely as Johnny Blaze. But it seems like the Angels were trying to just get Johnny to break a law and attack Arvis so they could keep him locked up and out of reach of the Demons.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Feb 2007 11:43 pm    
By JLH

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
I mean, is Johnny bonded to Zarathos again? Or is it a completely new bonding? Or something else? 
<<<

Nobody's said. Devin Grayson, in "Hammer Lane", essentially ignored Johnny's life since the original series, and even his relationship with Roxanne, and made him a has-been working in an office. Her whole mini reeked of a bad Hulk pitch with "motorcycle" and "flaming skull" added over coupious amounts of white-out. 

Ennis, of course, doesn't care about any character he writes, and that was reflected by his marginalizing of GR in his own mini. At least he's honest about it. 

But Way has at least given us something remotely enough to work with in regards to the possession. Enough that I can say with certainty it's not Zarathos. It's probably also not the being who calls himself Noble Kale. From what I figure, it's whatever Spirit of Vengeance that Johnny would have inherited from his connection to the bloodline of the Medallion had his mother not made the deal with Mephisto in GR3 -1. Remember, Zarathos was bonded to him as a result of his own stupidity, the deal to save Crash. It seems like, whatever Mephisto did to get rid of Danny, also reset Johnny's own eventual host-ness. This would explain why he's got more Danny-like powers as GR, since Zarathos was never a true Spirit of Vengeance to begin with, and this demon he's connected to actually does.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Feb 2007 10:17 am    
By Somebody

JLH wrote: 
>>>
SATAN/"MARDUK KURIOS" (also BTS in FB) 
<<<

*wants to restate his objection to making that the devil in this series. Besides the disparate power levels and the stuff I mentioned in the last threas, I'm pretty sure Kurious admitted he nicked the name from a more powerful demon. And, again, Way's talked about him as The Devil. I'd still say LUCIFER/SATAN - which might get a II in both cases, but the Squadron Supreme/Sinister numbering always confuses me in cases where II existed before I in-continuity* 

JLH wrote: 
>>>
But Way has at least given us something remotely enough to work with in regards to the possession. Enough that I can say with certainty it's not Zarathos. It's probably also not the being who calls himself Noble Kale. From what I figure, it's whatever Spirit of Vengeance that Johnny would have inherited from his connection to the bloodline of the Medallion had his mother not made the deal with Mephisto in GR3 -1. 
<<<

That was Noble Kane - see GR93. Noble was to be bonded to the first born descendent of his bloodline in every generation. That would have been Johnny bar the deal.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Feb 2007 02:05 pm    
By Mikhail

Right, but if I understood Ghost Rider minus #1, Naomi Kale's enchantment only prevented Johnny from inheriting the specific curse of Noble Kale -- he still had a medallion shard and still could've turned into any other Spirit of Vengeance, as well as Zarathos. The Noble Kale curse skipped to the second-born Kale of the generation, Barbara Ketch, and then ultimately manifested in the third-born, Dan Ketch, presumably because his hands were covered with Barb's innocent blood when he touched the medallion gascap in GRIII #1, transferring Barb's shard to him and the Kale curse with it. 

But yeah, anyway...even with his mother's magics and Zarathos excluded from the Medallion of Power, Johnny should still be able to turn into a Spirit of Vengeance.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Feb 2007 06:14 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Holy retcon, Batman! I didn't know ANY of this minutae.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Feb 2007 07:55 pm    
By Somebody

Mikhail wrote: 
>>>
Right, but if I understood Ghost Rider minus #1, Naomi Kale's enchantment only prevented Johnny from inheriting the specific curse of Noble Kale -- he still had a medallion shard and still could've turned into any other Spirit of Vengeance, as well as Zarathos. The Noble Kale curse skipped to the second-born Kale of the generation, Barbara Ketch, and then ultimately manifested in the third-born, Dan Ketch, presumably because his hands were covered with Barb's innocent blood when he touched the medallion gascap in GRIII #1, transferring Barb's shard to him and the Kale curse with it. 

But yeah, anyway...even with his mother's magics and Zarathos excluded from the Medallion of Power, Johnny should still be able to turn into a Spirit of Vengeance. 
<<<

My reading of #-1 was that not that he could HAVE turned into a host for any other demon (and per GR92, Noble Kane was a demon - or rather, was turned into one), but that he could BE turned into a host. Subtle difference, requiring intervention from outside. And the way JLH phrased it implied that Noble wasn't the demon he would have become had Naomi not intervened. 

Incidentally, something that's bugging me since I read this stuff - shouldn't Ghost Rider/Noble Kane get his own MCP entry, with any issue where GR appears and Danny doesn't have Dan only BTS, and vice-versa? They're seperate entities who were body-sharing, but the MCP's treating it right now like GR=Dan.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Feb 2007 08:09 pm    
By Col_Fury

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
shouldn't Ghost Rider/Noble Kane get his own MCP entry, with any issue where GR appears and Danny doesn't have Dan only BTS, and vice-versa? They're seperate entities who were body-sharing, but the MCP's treating it right now like GR=Dan. 
<<<

Venom & Eddie Brock have split-entries... 

By this logic, shouldn't Johnny Blaze & Zarathos have split-entries? And Thor & Don Blake and Thor & Jake Olson? 

Perhaps this should be moved to a different topic, but I agree with Somebody's suggestion. If Venom is split, then why not the Ghost Riders and Thor?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Feb 2007 08:32 pm    
By Somebody

Blaze/Zarathos is the same thing (I'm not sure how many other Firestorm-types are out there), but Thor/Blake/Olson is another matter. 

[Thor was never bonded to the real Blake or Olson, they were always just Thor in mortal form (he WAS, however, bonded to Eric Masterson in that way before the latter took over Thor's body as well), although there was a real Olson (the Blake thing is ambiguous to a certain extent - mostly because the story in question was crappy verging on indecipherable, but partially because Tom B ordered the Handbook guys to put in a "There never was a real Blake" line to Thor's Av2004 profile rather than rationalising the story in question.)] 

And, yeah, this probably needs its' own thread in the MU forum...

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Feb 2007 01:21 am    
By JLH

I've been working on splitting Noble Kale and Daniel Ketch's entries for the past day to go along with my GR:F 94 analysis. Doing the same for Blaze and Zarathos. 

Problem is with Blaze/Zarathos and Badilino/Vengeance, is they controlled their demons when transformed. As such, Vengeance doesn't need splitting, he was NEVER controlled by whatever Spirit of Vengeance he's bonded to. Blaze is a special case, he was in control for most of his first several years and only became a backseat driver later onward. But he should indeed get a split listing when he stopped being GR and was just running around as himself. 

I'd say Ghost Rider III should be Noble Kale's listing, with a "see Daniel Ketch" addition. I've yet to see a story, post his becoming GR, where Dan appears and GR doesn't, but there are plenty of GR only tales, meaning Dan's BTS at the time. From the very first issue Dan was GR, his Spirit of Vengeance was in full control (and of course it was later named to be Noble, PP:SM 93 doesn't clarify what part of the Kale story was a lie, and until a story does, we shouldn't throw it out). 

Oh, and Johnny Blaze got his own non-Zarathos "Spirit of Vengeance" back in the "Ghost Riders: Crossroads" one-shot.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Feb 2007 01:32 am    
By JLH

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
*wants to restate his objection to making that the devil in this series. Besides the disparate power levels and the stuff I mentioned in the last threas, I'm pretty sure Kurious admitted he nicked the name from a more powerful demon. And, again, Way's talked about him as The Devil. I'd still say LUCIFER/SATAN - which might get a II in both cases, but the Squadron Supreme/Sinister numbering always confuses me in cases where II existed before I in-continuity* 
<<<

The MCP was already saying the Kurious Satan was the one who turned Blaze into GR. It was already ignoring the Mephisto retcon from later in the book, probably because of the involvement of Hellstorm that tied into his early appearances. Way chose to retcon the retcon with another retcon, without explaining who he was rewriting the history with. Until somebody involved with the book bothers clairifying how a new character superceded two previous existing ones in such a heavily defined role, we should just go with what's actually known (perhaps if they bothered doing something in the letters page beyond showing off how cool they are as to permanently mutilate themselves with all them "purty cullers". Guess who's the lazy-ass editor of the GR book? I'll give you a hint: creators love him because he never says no to having a retcon raping!)

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Posted: 12 Feb 2007 01:44 am    
By Col_Fury

I'd model the split-listings after the way Venom & Eddie Brock are listed, like this:(ignore the appearances, they're just there for effect) 

Ketch, Daniel 
See also Ghost Rider III 
GR3 1 
GR3 2 
GR3 3 
... 

Ghost Rider III/Noble Kale 
GR3 1 
GR3 2 
GR3 3 
... 

The same for Johnny and Zarathos.(with Zarathos being Ghost Rider II/Zarathos, perhaps) Johnny would get an entire listing of his own, and after he became a new Ghost Rider, his listing would continue, but then a seperate Ghost Rider IV listing would start when he got a new Spirit of Vengeance. Until we learn what that demon's name is, it would just be Ghost Rider IV. 

As for Vengeance, I do think he should get a split-listing. As I understand it, it doesn't matter if he was controlled or not, there were two beings tied to the same body. Therefore, two listings.(Speaking of which, did the other Spirits of Vengeances ever get named, like Noble did?) Badilino appeared just as himself before he became Vengeance, and didn't we see FlashBacks of the Vengeance demon somewhere? 
JLH wrote: 
Oh, and Johnny Blaze got his own non-Zarathos "Spirit of Vengeance" back in the "Ghost Riders: Crossroads" one-shot. 

Really? Jeez, I haven't read that since it was published, I'll have to dig it out. Thanks!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:06 am    
By Enda80

JLH wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
*wants to restate his objection to making that the devil in this series. Besides the disparate power levels and the stuff I mentioned in the last threas, I'm pretty sure Kurious admitted he nicked the name from a more powerful demon. And, again, Way's talked about him as The Devil. I'd still say LUCIFER/SATAN - which might get a II in both cases, but the Squadron Supreme/Sinister numbering always confuses me in cases where II existed before I in-continuity* 
<<<

The MCP was already saying the Kurious Satan was the one who turned Blaze into GR. It was already ignoring the Mephisto retcon from later in the book, probably because of the involvement of Hellstorm that tied into his early appearances. Way chose to retcon the retcon with another retcon, without explaining who he was rewriting the history with. Until somebody involved with the book bothers clairifying how a new character superceded two previous existing ones in such a heavily defined role, we should just go with what's actually known (perhaps if they bothered doing something in the letters page beyond showing off how cool they are as to permanently mutilate themselves with all them "purty cullers". Guess who's the lazy-ass editor of the GR book? I'll give you a hint: creators love him because he never says no to having a retcon raping!) 
<<<

Okay, to tie all things together, perhaps demons trade souls the way a person sells stocks or rights to debt? Perhaps Blaze made his deal with Marduk Kurios but Mephisto later acquired the rights to Blaze's soul from Marduk Kurios? So Marduk Kurios perhaps was the demon in the summoning of Satan scene where Blaze made the deal, but Mephisto was the one who was banished by Roxanne? 

I think Batman/Deadman: Death and Glory used such a plot point.

Last edited by Enda80 on Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:23 am    
By JLH

That would work in a generalized theory, but in application it'd fall apart, since just about all the FBs of Johnny's origin have whatever version of Satan is in fashion at that moment. 

When's the last time Mephisto was shown, anyway? Could there have been a "Secret (Satan) War" sometime in the recent past we haven't heard about, where, as brought up in Dr Strange vol 3 #8, all the multi-realm aspects of Satan were merged back into the original demon they spawned from? That'd do much to account for the "change" in history, making this Lucifer all of the others combined and part & parcel for a metaphysic collation of the individual aspects all by one person (though I'm sure the new Hellstorm mini would throw a wrench into any such notion).

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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:15 am    
By Somebody

I think Mephisto last showed up in Aguire-Saccasa (sp?)'s Nightcrawler series, where A-S was setting up some sort of mystic war he hasn't got round to showing yet... 

And isn't Hellstorm: Son of Satan [MAX] out-of-continuity? I vaguely recall that it was meant to have loads of stuff that didn't fit, but not the details; and that, like it's counterpart Zombie it wasn't meant as MU from the start; but none of the details either way.

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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:45 am    
By Frederic Krier

Hellstorm: I thought it was out of continuity too, but issue 4 seems to indicate that it is meant to take place in normal 616 continuity, as Daimon remembers his relationship with Patsy, her death, his childhood and his fight with Anubis (the last two are FBs to the original seventies Son of Satan series). 
It's the Egyptian pantheon that contradicts established continuity, especially the resurrection of Osiris (even if it's a bit more in line with actual Egyptian mythology). Maybe they'll explain how it all ties together in issue 5...

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Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:53 am    
By Enda80

This devil, devil, who the devil is it talk reminds me of how many times Mephisto has replaced Satan or been revealed to have been the Satan in an earlier story 

Ghost Rider's origin: established as Mephisto in Ghost Rider II#68 

Cynthia Von Doom's damnation: Was it Fantastic Four Annual#20 that established that Satan as Mephisto? 

Tomb of Dracula: established as Mephisto in Doctor Strange volume 2 with Topaz's reappearance

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Thread 24

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:08 am    Post subject: Wolverine: Origins 11 & misc
By Col_Fury

Wolverine: Origins #11 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: April, 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Wolverines son, a bunch of unnamed SHIELD agents, Milo, his parents, Cyber(Silas Burr). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1pn1-pg1pn3: same day as last issue 
Wolverine gets up off the floor. 
Pg1pn4(of 5)-pg2-FB 
Recap of the end of last issue, different angle, no new information. 
Pg3-pg12: continued from pg1pn3 
Wolverine puts his guts back in himself and escapes from the oncoming SHIELD agents. He finds some clothes left behind for him in an alley and disappears into the crowd outside. His son watches from across the street, then makes his way back to his girlfriends apartment, where shes waiting for him, upset, and drinking. 
Pg13-FB: earlier that day 
Wolverines son kills a guy in a hotel and steals his passport. 
Pg14pn1-pg14pn6: continued from pg12 
Wolverines son and Wolverines sons girlfriend have an argument. 
Pg14pn7(of 7)-FB: earlier that day, before pg13-FB 
Wolverines sons girlfriend sees Wolverines son in a caf with another man having an intimate conversation. 
Pg15pn1-pg15pn3: continued from pg14pn6 
Wolverines son tells his girlfriend that he was just using her. 
Pg15pn4-FB: after pg14pn7-FB, before pg13-FB 
Wolverines sons girlfriend calls her friends and starts drinking. 
Pg15pn5(of 6)-pg16: continued from pg15pn3 
Wolverines son reveals that he drugged his girlfriends booze, and prepares to kill her. 
Pg17-pg22: some time later, elsewhere 
Milo has accidentally killed the family horse, not realizing his own strength. His mom sends him to the bathtub, then she and his dad discuss whether their decision not to register him was a good idea or not. That night, Milo is contacted by the disembodied presence of Cyber! 

References: 
Pg1-pg16, FlashBacks included, occur in one day, same day as last issue. 

Pg17-pg22 occur in one night, but not the same night as pg1-pg16. Clear night sky, full leaves on trees, and green grass wherever it is that Milo lives. No moon shown. 

From the dialogue on pg17-pg22, it seems that registration is in full effect and the public knows what its all about. Hopefully this means that Way has caught up to the rest of the Marvel Universe and is now post-Civil War. 

Only Milos family and Cyber appear in pg17-pg22. 

Heres a breakdown: 

W: O 11-FB pg14pn7: Day 10 
W: O 11-FB pg15pn4: Day 10 
W: O 11-FB pg13: Day 10 
W: O 8 pg10-pg14: Day 10 
W: O 8 pg17pn1: Day 10 
W: O 8 pg22-pg23: Day 10 
W: O 9 pg1-pg2: Day 10 
W: O 9 pg19-pg23: Day 10 
W: O 10 pg1-pg24: Day 10 
W: O 11 pg1-pg12: Day 10 
W: O 11 pg14pn1-pg14pn6: Day 10 
W: O 11 pg15pn1-pg15pn3: Day 10 
W: O 11 pg15pn5-pg16: Day 10 
* 
W: O 11 pg17-pg22: post-Civil War(?), Day 1 

Theres no FlashBacks to Wolverines past in this issue, so Ill throw in a few past Wolverine stories for giggles. 

Wolverine vol3 #32 was a story set in the past, no bookends, no FlashBack, just set in the past. It covered Logans time in Sobibor Death Camp, and is clearly labeled as May 1942, real-life guy General Reinhard Heydrich even makes an appearance. 

Basically, the commandant of Sobibor has committed suicide. The new commandant, appointed by Gen. Heydrich, arrives at Sobibor and quickly notices that Logan isnt working, so he kills him to make an example. To his dismay, Logan turns up alive again. Over a couple of weeks, he tries to kill him again and again, but Logan just wont stay dead! The poor guy eventually cracks and accidentally burns down his office his with him still in it. A few days later, the new commandant arrives 

I Heart Marvel: My Mutant Heart #1 was covered here, so Ill save the description, but the first story had FlashBacks of Wolverine in 1943. 

It was suggested that this lead into W3 32, but to do so would require ignoring the provided dates. The logic was that Wolverine was captured in IHM: MMH 1-FB, and was already imprisoned in W3 32. However, theres nothing to suggest the two stories are related, so Ill suggest otherwise. 

Some suggestions: 

HEYDRICH, GENERAL REINHARD 
W3 32 

WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETTE 
 
W2 106-FB 
UX 268-FB (08/41) 
*W3 32 (05/42) 
*IHM: MMH 1-FB (1943) 
W2 34-FB (06/06/44) pg8pn2-pg8pn3, pg13pn3-pg14, pg21 
W2 78-FB (06/06/44) 
 

I'll cover the rest of this arc when it's finished, but since this issue was more of an end to the previous arc, I figured 'why not?'
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:41 am    
By JLH

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
JAMES HOWLETTE 
<<<

Is that like a Moist Toilette?

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Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:28 pm    
By metaldragon

I think you mean Moist Towelette!
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

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Thread 25

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:46 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for Hulk vol. 3 #100/2
By Kevin W.
Director

There's a stand alone tale in the second half of Hulk #100, which is set back on Earth and details how some people are starting to take notice that the Hulk is missing...as such, I figured I'd go ahead and throw up a quick analysis of it by itself. My analysis of Issues 100 to 103 is coming. 

Incredible Hulk vol. 3 100/2 
"Planet Cho" 
Written by Greg Pak 
Pencils by Gary Frank 
Inks by Jon Sibal 

Appearances: 
MASTERMIND EXCELLO/AMADEUS CHO 
MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS 
IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK 
GABE JONES 
THOR CLONE 

There's also appearances of the Hulk, Cho, and other superheroes in some flashbacks, but these flashbacks have no new information in them. More info below... 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-3: A SHIELD Cape Killer team is flying in a helicopter, on the trail of Amadeus Cho, (aka Mastermind Excello) who they have deemed an unregistered super powered person, (due to Cho's uncanny ability to process information). Cho gives the lead agent, (Agent Jones) a call on his cell phone and informs him he's taking out their helicopter, (which he proceeds to do with the push of a button...the genius kid somehow came up with a contraption to knock out power to the SHIELD helicopter). The SHIELD agents parachut to safety... 

Pgs. 4-12: Narrative caption reads, "2 weeks later". Cho has been tracking the Hulk's trail through New Mexico, and discovers an old hideout used by Banner years ago. In this hideout, he uses an old computer to hack into Mr. Fantastic's database. At the Baxter building, Reed is getting ready to perform another modification to the Thor Clone, when he gets a phone call from Cho. While talking to Reed, Cho figures out that the Illuminati shot the Hulk into outer space, and he lectures Reed on how this was a bad thing to do. Cho does some calculations, and hacks into one of Mr. Fantastic's satellites, and determines that the Hulk is NOT on the planet that the Illuminati meant to send him to. Cho informs Reed of this, and Reed is stunned, (what they don't know is that Hulk's spaceship was blown off course, and ended up on the planet Sakaar, as shown in the "Planet Hulk" storyline). 

Cho calls Reed a monster, and Reed points to all of the towns destroyed by the Hulk. Cho counters by pointing out all the good things the Hulk has done over the years, and points out that all the Hulk ever wanted was to be left alone, and that they should've not sent him into space. 

Later that night, Iron Man meets up with Reed. Reed informs Tony that by the time SHIELD agents got to the old base in New Mexixo, Cho was long gone. Reed also tells Tony that Bruce isn't on the planet they meant to send him to, and they have no idea where the Hulk is...this greatly concerns Tony and Reed...meanwhile, Cho is continuing his quest to track down the Hulk... 

References: Pg. 1: Agent Jones of SHIELD narrates, (while SHIELD agents watch a video of Hulk and Mastermind Excello), "Six months ago, outside the Star diner in Jackalope, New Mexico, the Hulk too out an armed helicopter..." 

So Mastermind Excello's 1st appearance, (in AAF2 #15) occured "six months ago". Hulk was apparently still on Earth at that time...I wonder how long Hulk has been gone off Earth? 

Pg. 5: Mr. Fantastic, (while operating on the Thor clone) narrates, "Bill Foster is dead. And it's my fault." So this is after the opening scene of Civil War #4. 

On the last few pages of this story, we see brief, one-panel flashbacks to some of the Hulk's classic "rampages", and to some of Hulk's greatest moments, (like lifting the mountain in the original Secret Wars mini-series). There is nothing new added to any of this scenes. 

Also, there is no mention of any other members of the Fantastic Four, so while it's not confirmed one way or the other, the intention seems to be that this is after Sue and Johnny have joined the Resistance, and after Thing has left for France... 

For the MCP: 

MASTERMIND EXCELLO 
AAF2 #15 
**H3 #100/2 

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS 
CW 4 
**H3 100/2 

IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK 
CW 4 
**H3 100/2 

JONES, GABE 
**H3 100/2 

THOR CLONE 
CW 4 
**H3 100/2 

I don't know if the placement for Mr. Fantastic and Iron Man is exact, but it's definently after Civil War #4, (the death of Bill Foster)...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

Last edited by Kevin W. on Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:54 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:42 pm    
By Col_Fury

Agent Jones is Gabe Jones... formerly of the Howling Commandos, currently Agent of SHIELD. How does he stay so young? 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:54 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Agent Jones is Gabe Jones... formerly of the Howling Commandos, currently Agent of SHIELD. How does he stay so young?  
<<<

Really? Huh, I figured he was a throwaway character...what was his last appearance prior to here? 

GABE JONES 
**HULK 100/2
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:18 am    
By Starman

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
some of Hulk's greatest moments, (like lifting the mountain in the original Secret Wars mini-series) 
<<<

I loved when he did that, although it was a bit unrealistic considering the weight of that mountain. 
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

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Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:03 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

You should see what he did in H3 #102: kept the planet Sakaar from ripping apart with his bare hands! 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:09 pm    
By Col_Fury

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
what was his last appearance prior to here?  
<<<

I'm pretty sure it was Secret War #1.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:12 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Reed appears in this story before he finishes his work on the Thor Clone in BLACK PANTHER v4 #24 (21-23) and probably before he is seen working on the clone in CIVIL WAR #6 (3p3-5).
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:53 am    
By Somebody

Are appearances of "Clor" not getting tracked or something?

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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:59 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

I got to thinking about that...unless we get a name for this "clone" should we even bother to list this character in the MCP? "Clor" is just what fandom has named him...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:29 am    
By Somebody

Yeah, hence why I "quoted" the Clor name. 

Just list it as THOR CLONE or THOR CYBORG surely until a "proper name" is given [It's got precedent - Ben Reilly's listing starts as SPIDER-MAN CLONE, not to mention the Infinity War Doppelgngers].

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Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:47 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

How about Cyborg Clone Thor?!? 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:40 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

I think the question to ask here is, are people going to want to track the clone Thor's appearances? With the amount of notoriety that the character has gained, I believe that the answer is yes.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:50 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Allright, I'm adding "Thor Clone" to the Appearances section listed above, (hopefully he'll get a better name before too long...)
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:42 pm    
By JLH

Yeah. Probably "Cloned Thor"! 

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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:03 am    
By PaxHouse

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Allright, I'm adding "Thor Clone" to the Appearances section listed above, (hopefully he'll get a better name before too long...) 
<<<

Well, don't count...[Spoilers to be Highlighted]...on too many more appearances of 'Clor' since he was killed in battle by Hercules within CIVIL WAR #7...!! 

  
_________________
PaxHouse.

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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:31 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

True...and here I figured they were saving that for an encounter with the REAL Thor, (when he returns)...I guess Stracynski doesn't want to have to write about clones.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

Last edited by Kevin W. on Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:54 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Edited. Watch them spoilers, Kevin.  

-Jeph!

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Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:54 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Woops! Sorry, I guess that was spoiler territory...I made the majority of my text white, just to be ever further safe...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:01 pm    
By Somebody

PaxHouse wrote: 
>>>
Well, don't count... 
<<<

DO count: http://www.comicboards.com/avengers/view.php?rpl=070223025309

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Thread 26

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:27 am    Post subject: Punisher: Red X-Mas
By Col_Fury

Punisher: Red X-Mas #1 
W: Jimmy Palmiotti & Justin Gray 
D: Mark Texeira 
Published: February 2005 

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Suspiria, Dominick, five dead mobsters & their wives. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: New York 
Dressed as Santa Clause, the Punisher kills some mobsters. 
Pg4-pg6: Christmas Day, New York, the mobsters funeral. 
The wives discuss how Dominick, the surviving member of the family, is flying into town and that they should keep the businesses running like normal, with them running things in place of their husbands. They decide to pool some money to hire Suspiria to kill the Punisher. 
Pg7pn1-pn4: Sicily, same day. 
Suspiria gets a phone call 
Pg7pn5: 48 hours later, New York. 
Suspiria arrives in New York. 
Pg8-pg13: New Years Eve, evening, New York. 
Dominick is in town, so the Punisher kills him and his goons. 
Pg14-pg19: New Years Eve, 11:40 pm, New York. 
Suspiria is shooting civilians in Times Square during the New Years Eve countdown to draw out the Punisher. The cops cant do anything because shes threatened to detonate bombs that she claims to have planted.(its later revealed as a bluff, in case anyones interested) Punisher sees it on the news and heads over. He finds a shoots who he thinks is Suspiria with a sniper rifle, but its a decoy, unbeknownst to him. Suspiria watches. 
Pg20-pg29: 24 minutes after midnight, Punishers apartment. 
Suspiria arrives at the Punishers apartment, hes already there and in bed. They fight! After he ties her up,(big surprise, Punisher won) he interrogates her. 
Pg30-pg33: That morning, New York. 
Suspirias body is dropped on Reginas car. She calls a meeting with the other wives, the Punisher shows up and kills Regina. He tells the rest that they have 24 hours to get out of the country, but they have to make a donation to Santa Clause first. 
Pg34: The following day, New York. 
Dressed as Santa Clause, the Punisher collects the money from the departing wives. 

References: 
Christmas and New Years figure into the plot, so this is more than a topical reference. Im not sure if the full moon seen in New York on pg7 aligns with that week of time, so that may be considered topical. 

The mobsters are killed on pgs 1-3, and their funeral is on Dec 25. Im assuming about four or five days for the preparation time. Oh, and its a group funeral. I guess that would make sense if theyre all related. 
The writers were nice enough to give us a nice midnight marker between pages 19 & 20. Thanks fellas! 

Dec 20 or 21: pg1-pg3 
Dec 25: pg4-pg7pn4 
Dec 27: pg7pn5 
Dec 31: pg8-pg19 
Jan 1: pg20-pg33 
Jan 2: pg34 

As for where this would fit in the Punishers chronology, I guess that would depend on where the holidays fall within his regular book. For some reason I have this between issues 12 & 13 in my box.(it was published the same month as #14, #13 starts the Mother Russia arc. Yes, I store my books chronologically according to character) Suspiria dies in this issue, making this her first and last appearance, and I doubt anyone else will make any future appearances besides the Punisher. 

If I missed anything, please let me know.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:45 am    
By JLH

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Suspiria dies in this issue, making this her first and last appearance, 
<<<

Actually, she'll be returning in "The Punisher: Bloody Valentine", which comes in February. Sheesh, between Jigsaw, Microchip, and now this, Frank's having a hell of a time keeping his villains dead lately.

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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:23 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for stepping up on this one, Col_Fury.  


Quote: 
>>>
For some reason I have this between issues 12 & 13 in my box. 
<<<

And that's just how it works out on the calendar. 
_________________
Paul B.

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Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:30 am    
By Col_Fury

JLH wrote: 
>>>
Actually, she'll be returning in "The Punisher: Bloody Valentine", which comes in February. 
<<<

Really?  


Quote: 
>>>
Sheesh, between Jigsaw, Microchip, and now this, Frank's having a hell of a time keeping his villains dead lately. 
<<<

You're right about that... 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
For some reason I have this between issues 12 & 13 in my box. 
<<<

And that's just how it works out on the calendar.   
<<<

Good times. 


Pual Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Thanks for stepping up on this one, Col_Fury.   
<<<

No problem. And if we're lucky, I'll have District X 7-12 done sometime next week.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:42 pm    
By Enda80

Suspiria? Somebody call Dario Argento.

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Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:24 pm    
By Col_Fury

It took you over 14 months to notice that? 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:25 am    
By Enda80

I just saw a bio on her online.

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Thread 27

Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:54 pm    Post subject: Chronology Review for Hulk Vol. 3 #100-103
By Kevin W.
Director

Yet another pretty straightforward tale, set on an alien planet. The passage of time is again open to debate: How much time passes on an alien world compared to Earth is open to interpretationthe whole Planet Hulk storyline seems to take maybe a few weeks, but I suspect upcoming references in other Marvel universe titles will list that the Hulk has been gone for months, (and hopefully they wont say the Hulks been gone a year). 


Incredible Hulk #100 
Planet Hulk: Allegiance pt. 1 
Written by Greg Pak 
Pencils by Carlo Pagulayan 
Inks by Jeffrey Huet 

Appearances: 

Hulk, (Bruce Banner) 
Miek 
Caiera the Oldstrong 
Korg 
Elloe Kaifi 
Hiroim the Shamed 
No-Name, (Brood Creature #2 of 6) 
And the Hive Queen, (thats not her real name, and I dont think shell need a listing in the MCP) 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-18: This is probably the next day after the end of last issue. The Hulk and his band of rebels have regrouped in a nearby mountain range. Miek and his fellow Natives are trying to heal their Hive Queen whom they rescued last issue. The alien race known as the Spikes are being driven towards their location by the Red Kings Imperial army. Hulk smashes open the mountainside and out pours hot lava, which washes over the Spikes and the Imperials, killing them. Hulk and the other rebels then leave the region. 

They regroup a short time later, only to see the Hive Queen tragically transform into one of the Spikes, (she was infected last issue, and it took a little while for it to kick in). Miek takes a flamethrower to her, thus dooming his race of Natives to extinction, (she was supposedly the last of the Hive Queens). 

Hulk and the other rebels march into the land of the Shadow People, (the race of Hiroim the Shamed and Caiera the Oldstrong), to seek their aid in the coming battle against the Red King. 

Pg. 19-22: The Next Day: The rebels hunker down in tents, as a wind storm has picked up in the desert theyve entered. There is talk among the rebels of the Hulk being the Sakaarson, (the legendary savior of this planet) and Hiroim relates a story of how he grew up thinking he was the Sakaarson, until he became disillusioned with this worlds religion. Hulk steps out of the tent to see the Shadow People have found them 

References: 

Pg.19: One of the elder rebels relates how the prophecy of the Sakaarson is being fulfilled. He starts out, On the first day came fire, on the second day, wind. The fire is the lava that Hulk released yesterday, and the wind is this windstorm in the desertso if this is the second day then the break between days occurs between pgs. 18 and 19, (though we didnt see nightfall) 

Pg. 20-21: There is a flashback to Hiroims youth on these two pages. We see a young Horoim living with his Shadow People. He narrates that he was told nobody knew who his parents were, (he was an orphan) and thus, he began to dream to himself that he was to be the Sakaarson. The Flashback shows how he trained religiously, and when it came time for his initiation into the priesthood of the Shadow People, his tutor saw that he believed himself to be the Sakaarson. This was deemed blasphemy, and Hiroim was exiled, (and became known as Hiroim the Shamed). 

Thats the end of the flashback. Hiroim narrates that he now believes that they shouldnt look for a saviour to come forth, that he now believes everyone has a bit of the Sakaarson in them. But hes taking the Hulk into the Shadow Peoples land to have them believe Hulk is there to fulfill the prophecy, (so that the Shadow People will side with him in the coming war with the Red King). 

Incredible Hulk #101 
Planet Hulk: Allegiance pt. 2 
Written by Greg Pak 
Pencils by Carlo Pagulayan and Gary Frank 
Inks by Jeffrey Huet and Jon Sibal 

Appearances: 

Hulk, (Bruce Banner) 
Miek 
Caiera the Oldstrong 
Korg 
Elloe Kaifi 
Hiroim the Shamed 
No-Name, (Brood Creature #2 of 6) 
The Red King 
Arch-E-5912, (hes back to appearing in Hulks group of rebels again this issue! Funny how he comes and goes) 

Synopsis: Picks up right where we left off last issue. The Shadow People greet the Hulk, and teleport him, Hiroim, and Caiera away to their temple, (which is actually the crash site of their ancient spaceship which carried them to this world 1,000 years ago). They narrate that it was they who created the wormhole in the atmosphere above the planet Sakaar, (their prophecies said it would bring the savior of the planet to them). 

They put the Hulk through a psychic test, to see if he truly is the Sakaarson savior, but Hulk fails the test, (he sees a vision of the Illuminati, and attacks them in rage). They ask Hulk to leave, but Hulk decides if he cant have the Shadow People as allies, hell have their weapon: He yanks the ancient starship out of the ground and proclaims hes taking it. 

A short time later: Hulk and the spaceship, (being flown by Arch-E-5912) and his rebel forces fly off to the capital, taking out the Imperial Armada with an EMP blast from the spaceship. The spaceship then takes out the power in the capital Crown City, (but the Red King has donned his power armor and has rebooted the power to it). 

The Spikes are still overrunning the countryside, but Hulk suddenly gets the feeling that he should try and communicate with them. He and his teammates walk into the Spike spaceship and meet the Spike Leaders, (theyre more evolved) who are ready to propose a truce 

Meanwhile, Elloe and Hiroim are waiting for Hulk and the others to come back, and are standing guard outside Crown City. Elloe and some of the other rebels decide to go ahead and attack the Crown City, to kill the Red King, but the Red King fries them easily, and nearly kills Elloe, when the Hulk reappears, (now with the Spikes on his side). The final battle is about to begin 

References: Pg. 3: There is a couple of brief flashback panels on this page, (as the Shadow People narrate the history of the worm hole they created): 

3p4: FB- A brief panel showing a spaceship being sucked into the wormhole. The Shadow Elder narrates, It brought the Deaths Head guards, who fought back the first Spike Invasion. So this spaceship being sucked in carried the Deaths Head guards 

3p5:FB- A panel showing the Silver Surfer being sucked into the wormhole. The Shadow Elder narrates, It brought the Silver Surfer, who freed the slaves. 

This flashback would fit between H3 93 2p6 and 3p1, (2p6 is the Surfer looking at the wormhole, and 3p1 is the Surfer waking up in a prison cell on the planet Sakaar). 

3p6:FB-A panel showing the Hulk emerging out of his crashed spaceship, (as already shown in H3 92. No new information here). The Shadow Elder narrates, And finally, it brought you. 

Incredible Hulk #102 
Planet Hulk: Allegiance pt. 3 
Written by Greg Pak 
Pencils by Aaron Lopresti 
Inks by Sandu Florea 

Appearances: 

Hulk, (Bruce Banner) 
Miek 
Caiera the Oldstrong 
Korg 
Elloe Kaifi 
Hiroim the Shamed 
No-Name, (Brood Creature #2 of 6) 
The Red King 

Synopsis: 

Pgs. 1-3: FB-Narrative Caption Reads, One Hour Ago. Hulk, Miek, No-Name, Caiera, and Korg begin communicating with the Spike Leaders. The Spike Leaders explain their race lives in the stars, feeding off of dying suns, but they crash-landed on this world several years ago. Cut off from direct contact with the sun, they turned insane, feeding off of everything else, (and thats how they became the scourge of this planet). Now that theyve been unleashed on the surface again, they tell Hulk that theyll help him, if hell help the Spikes return to outer-space. 

Pgs. 4-22: Cut back to where we left off at the end of last issue, with the Hulk and the Red King squaring off. The two battle, and when the Red King sees he cant win, he presses a Doomsday button, which sets off an explosion deep below the surface of the planet. Korg, (a rock creature) and Caiera, (who is in touch with the planet) say that they can feel the planet splitting apart, and cracks in the ground are appearing everywhere. Hulk doesnt care for the planet exploding while hes around, and dives into the lava and swims to the core of the planet and fuses the splitting continents back together with his bare hands. He then returns to the surface, and punches the Red King, who lands off in the wilderness just outside of Crown City. There, the near death Red King is finished off by a passing group of rampaging Wildebots. 

Hulk is named the Savior of Sakaar and there is a parade through the streets of Crown City. As nightfall descends on the city, Hulk and the Spike Leaders head into private chambers, where the Spike Leaders begin feeding on the Hulk for nourishment, (Hulks the only one who can survive being fed upon by the Spikes). Korg and Hiroim stop by and let Hulk know that hes the new Emperor of Planet Sakaar. 

References: The Flashback on pgs. 1-3 occurs between pgs.18 and 19 of last issue. Pg. 18 ends with Hulk and company entering the Spike spaceship to talk to the Spike Leaders. Pgs. 19-22 switches to Hiroim and Elloe waiting on Hulk to return, and Elloe deciding to go ahead and lead troops to attack Crown City. The Red King appears and is about to kill Elloe when Hulk and company, (with the Spikes) arrive. 

Also, in this flashback, there is another flashback, (hows that for complicated?), which shows the origin of the Spikes. Since the spikes dont have individual characters, (theyre a collective race) I dont think theres any chronology listings to note in this flashback, but heres whats shown specifically in flashback: 

2p2: FB- A panel showing the Spike race floating in the void of outerspace, feeding on a nearby star. 

2p3: FB- A panel showing the Spike race in their spaceships flying off to a new star. 

2p4: FB- A panel showing the Spikes having accidentally crashed on the Planet Sakaar. 

2p4: FB- A panel showing the Spikes feeding on the races of Sakaar. 

2p5: FB- A panel showing the Emperors Death Head guards beating back the Spikes. 

2p6: FB- A panel showing the remaining Spikes being rounded up on a ship and exiled to Sakaars moon, (not returned to the stars, as they had hoped). 

2p7: FB- A panel showing the Spikes turning cannibalistic, feeding off of themselves, as they were stranded on the moon. 

Incredible Hulk #103 
Planet Hulk: Allegiance pt. 4 
Written by Greg Pak 
Pencils by Aaron Lopresti 
Inks by Sandu Florea 

Appearances: 

Hulk, (Bruce Banner) 
Miek 
Caiera the Oldstrong 
Korg 
Elloe Kaifi 
Hiroim the Shamed 
No-Name, (Brood Creature #2 of 6) 

New Character: Elloes Kaifis mother, (no first name given, thus, I dont think she should be listed in the MCP until we get a first name). 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-14: Narrative caption reads, Day One of the Reign of the Green King. 

It is the next morning. The Spikes Leaders have been feeding on the Hulks gamma energy all night long. They detach from him and leave to spread the energy among the Spikes, (its keeping them in line). Hulk is a withered husk, with a blanket draped over him. Caiera notices that Hulk shrinks from underneath this blanket, (as he momentarily reverts to Bruce Banner). With seconds, Hulk has regained control of himself, and tosses the blanket aside, (restored to his usual self now that the Spikes no longer feed upon him). 

Hulk and Caiera step outside onto the streets of the city, but the peace is shattered as a remaining holdout of Imperials, (who worshipped the Emperor) launch an attack. Miek and Elloe lead the counter attack, and slay all of the remaining loyal imperials, until Elloe comes across her mother, (whos fighting with the loyalists). Elloe tells her mother that it was the Red King who killed her father, and her mother says she knows this, but she doesnt want to be ruled over by creatures, (like the Natives, Mieks race). Miek and his fellow Natives hear her words and before too long, the remaining Imperials are fighting against the Natives, (with Elloe and Miek now at each others throats). Hulk arrives and tells them to settle their differences in the Great Arena. 

Cut to a short time later. Elloe and Miek and the other Natives and Imperials refuse to make up, and the match begins in the arena, but suddenly the Hulk jumps into the arena, and demands they all fight him instead. When they back down, Hulk tells them to all become friends and embrace each other, or hell kill all of them himself. 

Pgs. 15-22: Narrative caption reads, Day Two of the Reign of the Green King. The Shadow Elders have arrived in the capital, and are meeting with the Hulk. They say that they had a treaty with the Red King, but now that the Red Kings dead, they want to form a new treaty with the Hulk. They offer Caiera as a bodyguard to the Hulk, but Hulk asks instead to have Caiera as a wife. Caiera accepts, and the treaty is agreed to. 

Cut to a short time later. Hulk and Caiera have a private wedding ceremony, (its more like a Japanese tea ceremony), and Caiera asks Hulk to bare his soul to her. Hulk reluctantly agrees and transforms back into Banner, revealing his other half to her. Banner explains they both inhabit the same body, but Caiera doesnt care, she kisses Banner, and Hulk re-emerges, and they have their honeymoon 

Cut to that evening: As Hulk and Caiera stand out on their balcony overlooking their subjects, meanwhile, Miek and No-Name wander deeper into the palace. The two bugs start to get intimate, when they stumble across a chamber where they find the space shuttle that flew the Hulk to this world, (the Red King was keeping it for investigation). They hit a button and the message from the Illuminati to the Hulk begins broadcasting on a monitor. Miek learns that the Hulk was exiled from his planet, and he plans on discussing this further with the Hulk 

References: It would appear the new status quo for Banner/Hulk is that Hulk completely controls the body, and only lets out Banner when he absolutely has to.even more strange, Banner seems to have come to accept this new lot in life, (hes a prisoner in the Hulks body). 

Heres the MCP listings, (if anyone notices any mistakes, please let me know): 

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
H3 99 
*H3 100 
*H3 101 
*H3 102-FB 
*H3 101 
*H3 102 
*H3 103 

MIEK 
H3 99 
*H3 100 
*H3 101 
*H3 102-FB 
*H3 102 
*H3 103 

RED KING/ANGMO II 
H3 99 
*H3 101 
*H3 102 

CAIERA THE OLDSTRONG 
H3 99 
*H3 100 
*H3 101 
*H3 102-FB 
*H3 101 
*H3 102 
*H3 103 

KORG 
H3 99 
*H3 100 
*H3 101 
*H3 102-FB 
*H3 101 
*H3 102 
*H3 103 

ELLOE KAIFI 
H3 99 
*H3 100 
*H3 101 
*H3 102 
*H3 103 

HIROIM THE SHAMED 
H3 99 
*H3 100 
*H3 101 
*H3 102 
*H3 103 

NO-NAME/BROOD #2 OF 6 
H3 99 
*H3 100 
*H3 101 
*H3 102-FB 
*H3 102 
*H3 103 

ARCH-E-5912 
H3 97 
*H3 101 

SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD, (the H3 95-FB should be split in two, to insert this new brief flashback): 
H3 95-FB 
*H3 101-FB 
H3 95-FB 

Thats it for now. My review for the last story arc in Daredevil is coming up next.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Thread 28

Posted: 27 Jan 2007 02:18 pm    Post subject: Marvels arriving on January 31
By Col_Fury

ANNIHILATION #6 (OF 6) 
BLACK PANTHER #24 
DAREDEVIL #93 
GHOST RIDER: FINALE 
MARVEL SPOTLIGHT: DARK TOWER 
MS. MARVEL SPECIAL 
ULTIMATE CIVIL WAR/SPIDER-HAM CRISIS #1 
ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR #38 
X-MEN #195
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Posted: 28 Jan 2007 12:30 am 
By JLH

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
ANNIHILATION #6 (OF 6) 
GHOST RIDER: FINALE  
<<<

Sounds like a busy week for me!

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Posted: 02 Feb 2007 03:58 am    
By Col_Fury

As it turns out, I enjoyed the hell out of Ghost Rider: Finale. I guess what really did it for me, was that they printed it(almost) as if it came out in 1998. It had the late '90's cover design, the older recap page... it's even numbered as issue 94! 

It was like finding that one missing issue from your collection in the back-issue bins and finally being able to finish the story. 10 years later.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Posted: 04 Feb 2007 10:58 am   
By Kevin W.
Director

I enjoyed it as well, but since it's labeled on the cover as Issue #94, how should we include it in the MCP? As "Ghost Rider: Finale" or as #94 of the 2nd Ghost Rider series?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 04 Feb 2007 12:27 pm   
By jephyork
Director

The cover also says "Finale". What does the indicia say? 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 04 Feb 2007 01:27 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
The cover also says "Finale". 
<<<

Not in such a way as to suggest that it's part of the book's title, though. The cover of GR3 93 says "Two Brides for a Demon". The cover of GR3 92 says "A Ghost No More". And so on. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
What does the indicia say? 
<<<

We've never been overly concerned with what the indicia says, though. The indicia for H@ 1 says "THE INCREDIBLE HULK", I believe. 

Marvel's web site refers to it as "GHOST RIDER FINALE #1". 


watching: farscape

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Posted: 04 Feb 2007 01:45 pm    
By Starman

My vote is for calling it GR3 94.
_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

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Posted: 04 Feb 2007 03:21 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
We've never been overly concerned with what the indicia says, though. 
<<<

I'd still like to know. In my personal collection I take great interest in what the indicia considers the "official title" of a given book. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 04 Feb 2007 04:06 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I'd still like to know. In my personal collection I take great interest in what the indicia considers the "official title" of a given book. 
<<<

Just "GHOST RIDER FINALE" (no number) 

My vote, incidentally, is to treat it as GR #94 (Why GR3, BTW? Most places refer to the volume this was meant to conclude as GR v2). Bear in mind when filing, however, that it also reprints GR #93, so the GR94 story is actually story 2.

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Posted: 04 Feb 2007 04:23 pm    
By Ant-Man

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Why GR3, BTW? 
<<<

The first Ghost Rider series was the western series featuring Carter Slade. 
The 2nd series was the Johnny Blaze series. 
That leaves the Dan Ketch series as GR3.
_________________
PUM SPAK 
Justice is Served

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Posted: 04 Feb 2007 06:04 pm    
By Col_Fury

I also vote for GR3 94.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Posted: 04 Feb 2007 07:04 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Well, it's certainly an unusual situation. It was pretty clearly solicitated as "Ghost Rider: Finale" but it looks like a typical issue of the 2nd, (3rd?) Ghost Rider series.
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Posted: 04 Feb 2007 09:18 pm    
By Col_Fury

I think GR3 94 goes with the spirit of the issue. 

Look at it this way: 8 years from now, a person is looking through Ghost Rider's listings and sees something like GR:F in his chronology, looks through the back issue bins and can't find anything called 'Ghost Rider: Finale', because in the bins is an issue labeled #94, with a blurb on it that says finale. It's not really the title on the cover, it's a numbered issue. 

Future possible confusion aside, I think it just works as GR3 94. Now, being that the first story is a reprint and the second story is actually #94, it may end up being listed as GR3 94/2... 

Just my two cents.  

Speaking of which, X-MEN ANNUAL #1 comes out this week... 

Did we ever decide on how to list these new batches of Annuals? They're all starting over with new #1's, even though some series are still in their first volume like the X-Men, and Uncanny from a while back. 

I would think that if Ghost Rider gets a new annual, it would be listed like GR4@ 1, right? So are we just assigning a new volume to the annuals with X-Men like: X@II 1 or X@2 1? I can't remember what we decided...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Posted: 04 Feb 2007 10:54 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
I would think that if Ghost Rider gets a new annual, it would be listed like GR4@ 1, right? 
<<<

No. The Hulk Annuals were "associated" with H2, but it was the first volume of the annuals, so they were coded as "H@". 


Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
So are we just assigning a new volume to the annuals with X-Men like: X@II 1 or X@2 1? I can't remember what we decided... 
<<<

It would be X@2 1. I recognize this may be confusing to some, but lay the blame for that at Marvel's doorstep. Starting over with the numbering of the annuals is confusing. 


watching: team america world police

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Posted: 05 Feb 2007 12:52 am   
By Col_Fury

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
The Hulk Annuals were "associated" with H2, but it was the first volume of the annuals, so they were coded as "H@".  
<<<

Now that makes sense. Different volumes for annuals. 

So if Ghost Rider were to start getting annuals again, even though it would be volume 4 of the series, it would only be volume 2 for it's annuals. 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I recognize this may be confusing to some, but lay the blame for that at Marvel's doorstep. Starting over with the numbering of the annuals is confusing.  
<<<

If there's a logic to it, like 'different volumes for anuals,' it's not as confusing. But that's a logic we use, not Marvel. Maybe that should be in the key, to help avoid confusion?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Thread 29

Posted: 17 May 2006 03:50 am    Post subject: Coming from Marvel in August
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Full solicitations are up at Newsarama. 

- All the Ultimate books get annuals. 

- Civil War tie-ins (both official and those that clearly mention Civil War in the blurb): CIVIL WAR #4, CIVIL WAR: FRONTLINE #5-6, CIVIL WAR: X-MEN #2, CIVIL WAR: YOUNG AVENGERS & RUNAWAYS #2, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #535, FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #11, FANTASTIC FOUR #540, HEROES FOR HIRE #1, MS MARVEL #6, NEW AVENGERS #23, THUNDERBOLTS #105, CABLE & DEADPOOL #31 and WOLVERINE #45. 

- SPIDER-MAN FAMILY: AMAZING FRIENDS. Tribute to SPIDER-MAN & HIS AMAZING FRIENDS, and therefore presumably out of continuity. 

- The main ANNIHILATION miniseries begins. 

- CLAWS, a three-issue Black Cat/Wolverine miniseries. 

- MYTHOS: HULK. I thought they'd forgotten about these things. 

- AGENTS OF ATLAS, a six-issue miniseries starring various 1950s characters. 

- MARVEL WESTERNS: STRANGE WESTERNS STARRING THE BLACK RIDER. A straggler from last month's western books. 

- SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN #29 is expressly a post-Civil War story. 

- Usual selection of trade paperbacks and hardbacks collecting recent storylines. Best line in the solicitations: "If you like anything, you will love NEXTWAVE!" 

- MARVEL MASTERWORKS: IRON MAN vol 3. 

- Hardback of KRAVEN'S LAST HUNT. 

- Digest collection of A-NEXT #1-6, of all things. 

- WOMEN OF MARVEL, collecting the first appearances of various heroines. Because girls are a gimmick. 

- SPIDER-MAN VISIONARIES: KURT BUSIEK vol 1, which actually collects the opening issues of UNTOLD TALES. 

- This month's Essentials: Hulk vol 4, Hero for Hire vol 2.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 05 Jun 2006 05:39 pm    
By Andy Holcombe

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
- SPIDER-MAN FAMILY: AMAZING FRIENDS. Tribute to SPIDER-MAN & HIS AMAZING FRIENDS, and therefore presumably out of continuity. 
<<<

According to an interview on the Newsarama ( http://www.newsarama.com/ ) with writer Sean McKeever, the issue will be in continuity. It's more of a tribute to the series rather than taking place in the TV series universe.

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Posted: 11 Jun 2006 01:49 am  
By PeteD

Also out in August is the first collaboration from Marvel/Top Cow: Darkness/Wolverine. 

Because it is being solicited by Top Cow there is no mention in Marvel's listings.

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Posted: 11 Jun 2006 09:51 pm    
By garbonzo

Wasn't there an earlier crossover? "Devil's Reign" I believe. But, since this is an intercompany crossover, I believe this will automatically fall into the "not cannon unless proven otherwise" category. 

garbonzo 
creeping up on the 100th post!

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Posted: 12 Jun 2006 01:14 am    
By Frederic Krier

Actually there have been several crossovers with Top Cow, Devil's Reign (9 issues in 1996) being the most prominent. 
2004 saw Darkness/Hulk and Witchblade/Wolverine. 
All of these have been collected recently, I believe. 

Frederic

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Posted: 12 Jun 2006 08:53 am    
By jephyork
Director

I think PeteD meant that this is the first NEW Top Cow/Marvel crossover book. 

And, garbonzo, I think at the moment our crossover policy is that if the companies act like the characters live in the same universe, it's not canon -- but if they have the characters crossing dimensional boundaries to meet up, it is. (Unless it can't be for some OTHER reason, of course.) 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 12 Jun 2006 10:06 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yup, that's the basic rule of thumb: crossovers where the characters travel between universes are potentially canon (assuming they otherwise qualify), but crossovers set on "merged" earths incorporating elements from both universes are non-canon (or, if you prefer, take place on some alternate world somewhere - though it makes no difference in practice).
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 12 Jun 2006 06:25 pm    
By garbonzo

If this is the case, why is there no listing then for the characters that appear in Exiles? They do not originate in the Marvel Earth 616 Universe, yet they interact with it (on multiple occasions. Even going so far as to take Beak for several issues and leave Nocturn behind). And, while we list appearences for the characters who were whisked away to the parallel dimension during Heroes Reborn, we do not include a listing for the 13th issue where they interact with characters from the Image universe. Is that because that opens up the possiblity of being two dimensiones removed from the home dimension? 

I seem to recall (somewhere in my addled brain) a discussion about this topic looooooooong ago where it was ruled that company-wide crossovers were non-cannon unless there was some kind of explicit proof otherwise. In other words, the burden of proof rested with proving that it was cannon as opposed to disproving it. But I could be wrong. It was definately before the discussion board switched formats. 

Now don't get me wrong. i am happy to have inter-company crossovers count. But, if that is the case, then we are going to have to deal with the fact that Marvel and DC have crossed over several times and no one ever remembers the fact that they have met before. I mean, if two characters in the same universe meet, and they act as if they have never met before, yet we know they have met in the past, that usually indicates a major issue of cannonicity/cannonitude/cannability, whatever. Why do the rules change for inter-company crossovers? 

There are listings for DC vs. Marvel and All Access but nothing for the first meeting where the Teen Titans and the X-Men meet. Is there something in that meeting that makes the meeting non-cannon?

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Posted: 12 Jun 2006 08:07 pm    
By SeanCurtin

garbonzo wrote: 
>>>
There are listings for DC vs. Marvel and All Access but nothing for the first meeting where the Teen Titans and the X-Men meet. Is there something in that meeting that makes the meeting non-cannon? 
<<<

X-Men/New Teen Titans assumes that the X-Men and Titans live in the same world. 

-Sean

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Posted: 12 Jun 2006 08:45 pm    
By jephyork
Director

There are no Exiles listings because we haven't gotten to them yet. That's all. It has nothing to do with us thinking the book is non-canon. 

As for why Marvel and DC characters don't remember meeting one another -- that's a question for the cosmos, not us. If two Marvel characters meet for the first time, then meet again eight years later for the first time, do we declare one appearance non-canon? Nope, we just stick 'em both in the MCP and chug right along. That glitch is Marvel's problem. I say, the same applies to Marvel vs. DC and JLA/Avengers. Both canon, and make up your best cosmic-phenomenon answer to explain the loss of memory. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Jun 2006 05:28 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
If two Marvel characters meet for the first time, then meet again eight years later for the first time, do we declare one appearance non-canon? Nope, we just stick 'em both in the MCP and chug right along. 
<<<

But isn't that exactly what happened with Wolverine & Elektra: The Redeemer? 

-Sean

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Posted: 13 Jun 2006 05:37 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I think so ... and, hmm, from a search of the Key it looks like "Redeemer" is *not* in the MCP. 

However, I don't know why it was excluded. Could be that we haven't gotten around to it yet, could be that it was excluded because it was more a prose story than a comic, could be an oversight. I don't know for a fact that it was declared non-canon because Wolverine met Elektra for the first time again. 

-Jeph!

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Posted: 13 Jun 2006 08:39 pm    
By garbonzo

For what it is worth, i have searched the MCP (handy feature btw  ) for some of the conversations I "remember." Well, lo and behold, I can't find any of them  . Sooooooooooo, I believe I may have been speaking out of my @$$ when I said that it was automatically non-cannon. Thank you for the clarification, however, about the same universe/parallel universe distinction. 

However, since the Devil's Reign crossover and the other crossovers are not cannon, I think it is safe to say that we can read this crossover with some speculation. 

So, whatever happened with those Heroes Reborn/Retun crossovers? 

Garbonzo 
almost there!

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Posted: 13 Jun 2006 10:04 pm    
By Jason Doty

Devil's Reign could be canon, but has yet to be analyzed. It is a universe to universe cross-over. 

There are others that also fit the criteria, but have also not been analyzed, just because it has not been posted does not automatically make it non canon. 

Anyone who wants to help complete these type of cross-overs, feel free to jump on board and post it in the analysis forum.

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Posted: 14 Jun 2006 12:52 am    
By JLH

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Devil's Reign could be canon, but has yet to be analyzed. It is a universe to universe cross-over. 
<<<

It also made use of a specific continuity issue of the time, namely that Mephisto was "dead" (after being killed by Blackheart in the second Punisher/Wolverine/Ghost Rider bookshelf format special). In that regard alone, it actually tried to be canon, whether or not it succeeded it beyond me.

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Posted: 14 Jun 2006 07:55 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I don't recall any obvious reason why Devil's Reign couldn't be canon. It was certainly written as a genuine inter-universe crossover - the basic premise, from what I remember, was that Mephisto discovered an alternate universe (Earth-Top Cow) and set out to invade.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

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Posted: 07 Feb 2007 07:15 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph wrote: 
>>>
I think so ... and, hmm, from a search of the Key it looks like "Redeemer" is *not* in the MCP. 
However, I don't know why it was excluded. Could be that we haven't gotten around to it yet, could be that it was excluded because it was more a prose story than a comic, could be an oversight. I don't know for a fact that it was declared non-canon because Wolverine met Elektra for the first time again.  
<<<

I haven't seen any follow-up on this. Any final verdict?
_________________
Paul B.
