	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Iceman's chronology: missing issues
2. Marvel Team-up 117, 118
3. The sliding timeline
4. Real life characters under different names
5. AWC 65/2 Normandy fb to 1944?
6. Illuminati #2
7. Ares #4... [SPOILER]
8. Flashbacks in CAP 25
9. Marvel: The Lost Generation
10. Spot the villains
11. Howling Commandos notes
12. Captain America #25: Sharon Carter
13. GAM3 10, M/CP 77-79, & misc
14. the Battle of the Bulge!
15. D-Day!
16. Dan Slott's Human Torch/Spidey miniseries
17. Captain America's Bicentennial Battles & misc
18. Marvels
19. Claremont and Cockrum
20. Name the Villains
21. Civil War Battle Damage Report
22. Truth and Transformers
23. Iron man volume 3 #1-#83
24. Hm, mistake in Iron Man and Happy Hogan's chronologies

	Issue Analysis Forum
25. Hellstorm: Son of Satan 1-5 [MAX]
26. Runaways vol. 2 #19-24
27. March call for analyses
28. Marvel Super-Heroes vol 3 #13, 14, 15
29. Tales of the Marvels: Blockbuster
30. Moon Knight one-shots
31. Northstar #1-4
32. Wolverine: Origins 6-10, & misc
33. Lethal Foes of Spider-Man #1-4
34. Doctor Strange: The Oath (+ revised origin Dr. Strange)
35. The Shroud #1-4
36. Amazing Spider-Girl #1-6
37. Solo #1-4
38. Sgt. Fury 106, 108, 110, 112, 114-120
39. Spider-Man: The Arachnis Project 1-6
40. Spider-Man: Web of Doom 1-3
41. Fury: Peacemaker
42. Spider-Man: The Power of Terror 1-4
43. Captain America/Nick Fury: the Otherworld War!
44. Wild Thing (1993 Marvel UK)
45. FF/IM: Big in Japan #2-4
46. Daredevil/Black Widow: Abattoir GN
47. Sgt. Fury 94, 96, 97, 98, 102
48. Combat Kelly 1-9 & Sgt. Fury 104
49. CFA: The Gap








Thread 1

Posted: 28 Feb 2007 08:59 pm    Post subject: Iceman's chronology: missing issues
By metaldragon

Been going over my comic collection and comparing it to the Project to see if I was missing anything and noticed that X 19 is missing from Iceman's listing. His appearance there falls between X 18 and IC 1. In fact it continues on directly from the end of X 18. 

Also, his appearances in UX 312 & 313 (Between UX 311 and 314) are missing as well.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Feb 2007 10:52 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Those issues fall in the Gap, right? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Feb 2007 10:58 pm    
By metaldragon

Oh! You're right! Duh. Sorry about that. Do they need to be analysed yet or is someone on it?
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Feb 2007 11:25 pm    
By JLH

The issues are already in the MCP for other characters. The Gap is finished, aside from some mini's and one-shots I'm supposed to be doing analysis for right now.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Mar 2007 04:04 am    
By metaldragon

Also missing is his appearance in XU 15. 

This belongs between W2 111 & X 65.
_________________
"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thread 2

Posted: 01 Mar 2007 09:06 am    Post subject: Marvel Team-up 117, 118
By Lucifer

I noticed in Wolverine's chronology that's these issues are placed in between pages of Uncanny X-Men 161. 

Marvel team-up 118 features the danger room and the X-Men's mansion. Which were destroyed by the Sidri in Uncanny X-Men 154. The mansion was rebuild in Uncanny X-Men 164, while Wolverine was in space fighting the Brood. 

So I suggest moving Marvel Team-up 117 & 118 to before the destruction of the mansion. Between Uncanny X-Men 153 and 154. 

UX 153 
M/GN 1 
SS@ 6-FB-BTS 
XU 29/2 
M/FAN 4 
M/TU 117 
M/TU 118 
UX 154 
Not completely sure where, since I don't own all these issues. 

Same goes for Collosus, Prof. X and Kitty Pryde who appear in Marvel Team-up 118 only.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Mar 2007 10:05 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Lucifer said: 
>>>
So I suggest moving Marvel Team-up 117 & 118 to before the destruction of the mansion. Between Uncanny X-Men 153 and 154. 
<<<

That is indeed where the Official Marvel Index to the Uncanny X-Men, vol. 2 #3 has M/TU 117-118 -- between UX 153 and M/GN 1.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 3

Posted: 29 Sep 2005 06:44 am    Post subject: The sliding timeline
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Buried deep in the small print of this week's Alternate Worlds Handbook, there's actually a little paragraph reiterating the sliding timeline concept and, for the first time in ages, stating exactly how much time has passed since the FF's spaceflight. 

The official ruling is fifteen years.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Sep 2005 11:58 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Well, my own personal philosophy was that it's been somewhere between 15 and 20 years, but I'll take whatever reference I can get.  

At least Marvel isn't claiming anymore that it's only been 10 years tops. If it has been 15 years, and Peter Parker was 16 years old when he became Spiderman, then that puts him as being 30 or 31 years old. Hooray!! No more references to him being 20-ish! No more crazy references that Peter Parker just got married and is fresh out of college! 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Sep 2005 09:01 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hmm, that's a bit closer to my 22-year estimate than I figured it would be. I'm surprised it's not 6 or 7 years to conform to the "caterpillar" model of both sliding and compression. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Sep 2005 02:52 am
By RLG

I'm assuming here that we are talking about the "Omniverse: A Glossary of Terms" section on the inside page of the back cover. Although I'm no expert about the sliding time-scale, I find that these two statements seem to conflict each other: 

1) the "Age of Heroes" is referred to as a "10-15 year period of time" 
2) the (FF's) space-flight "will always be around 15 years ago" 

I can (sort of) live with the fact that the space-flight was "around 15 years ago," but what's up with this ambiguous "10 to 15 years" stuff? Which is it? 

Also, was the sliding time-scale in effect during FF 2? I mean, Marvel has just said that no matter when, the FF's space-flight is ALWAYS about 15 years ago! Although not an expert, I understand the 'reasoning' for the sliding time-scale, but when does it actually go into effect? If a set of "rules" regarding the structure of time is set in a certain reality, you'd think that these "rules" exist from the start, and not changed at some point mid-stream. 

Also, does this mean that everything George O. established has just been negated? 


- RLG

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Sep 2005 03:58 am    
By Somebody

Basically, this seems to be taken directly from Bendis' "Fifteen Years Ago" reference in Alias.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Sep 2005 04:22 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

RLG wrote: 
>>>
Also, was the sliding time-scale in effect during FF 2? I mean, Marvel has just said that no matter when, the FF's space-flight is ALWAYS about 15 years ago!  
<<<

I think the point they're making is that it isn't getting any longer.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Sep 2005 06:23 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

RLG wrote: 
>>>
I'm assuming here that we are talking about the "Omniverse: A Glossary of Terms" section on the inside page of the back cover. Although I'm no expert about the sliding time-scale, I find that these two statements seem to conflict each other: 

1) the "Age of Heroes" is referred to as a "10-15 year period of time" 
2) the (FF's) space-flight "will always be around 15 years ago" 

I can (sort of) live with the fact that the space-flight was "around 15 years ago," but what's up with this ambiguous "10 to 15 years" stuff? Which is it? 
<<< 

Both still strike me as being valid. Keep in mind two things: First, there's an indeterminate amount of time between when the FF first gained their powers and when they first encountered the Mole Man. IIRC, the last Human Torch series suggested it was two or three months. Second, there's an indeterminate amount of time between FF #1 and #2, since the team goes from being unknown to literally interstellar super stars worthy of being duplicated by the Skrulls. John Byrne has suggested (and I believe even proposed a series along these lines) that the time between those first two issues could easily be a year or more. 

So those two points allow for a fair degree of latitude, I believe, and give rationale for both quotes being valid.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Sep 2005 12:34 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
I think the point they're making is that it isn't getting any longer. 
<<<

Now that I don't like. It's one thing to acknowledge that time is moving very slowly, but to say that time in the Marvel Universe has halted altogether is absurd. I mean, are they saying that in the year 2050, (real time) it will still only be 15 years that have passed?!? 

Yeah, I can picture it now: In 2050, the rationale for some characters will be like this: "Magneto, as a youth, was in a concentration camp in the Balkans in the 1990's!" 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Sep 2005 01:58 pm    
By shandrakor

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
So those two points allow for a fair degree of latitude, I believe, and give rationale for both quotes being valid. 
<<<

Well, a degree of latitude of maybe a year or so. I don't see how anyone could reasonably argue that 5 years pass between the first page of FF 1 and FF 2.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Sep 2005 03:05 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
It's one thing to acknowledge that time is moving very slowly, but to say that time in the Marvel Universe has halted altogether is absurd. I mean, are they saying that in the year 2050, (real time) it will still only be 15 years that have passed?!? 
<<<

Yes, that's exactly what they're saying, and to be honest, I think they're right. The characters simply aren't going to age much further and for the universe to be viable at all, you've simply got to hurl a lot of artistic licence at it and stand well back. The timeline simply doesn't work on any other basis. There's no way Marvel are going to be publishing Spider-Man comics in 2050 featuring a middle-aged hero. The character simply isn't going to get much older than he already is. That's just the commercial reality of it, and there's not much point trying to pretend otherwise. 

In fact, the HANDBOOK throws in a very interesting idea about the sliding timescale. They suggest (purely as a theory) that the sliding timescale is not merely a bit of artistic licence, but something which is actually happening in the Marvel Universe itself - an ongoing reality warp of some sort. 

My initial reaction on reading that was to groan and roll my eyes. But the more I think about it, the more it's growing on me. There's a certain Occam's Razor appeal to the idea that the MU appears to have a sliding timeline because it really does have a sliding timeline. It's certainly no screwier than anything else in Marvel Universe physics. It explains away all anomalies without invalidating anything. And it's not a cop-out, because the sliding timeline really is an absolutely integral feature of the Marvel Universe - so why not go the whole way and embed it in Marvel Universe physics? It's really quite neat and tidy.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Sep 2005 03:28 pm    
By shandrakor

Well, my largest concern here is with the younger heroes. No, Peter Parker or Cyclops isn't going to age much more over the next 20 years of publishing, but Franklin Richards or the latest crop of X-kids probably will. 

What we really run into is that no given character is likely to age more than 15 years, no matter how long they're published, but the "teen" heroes will eventually age and seem to catch up to their elders.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Sep 2005 03:38 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
I think the point they're making is that it isn't getting any longer. 
<<<

Now that I don't like. It's one thing to acknowledge that time is moving very slowly, but to say that time in the Marvel Universe has halted altogether is absurd. I mean, are they saying that in the year 2050, (real time) it will still only be 15 years that have passed?!? 
<<<

Yep, and it has to be that way. The alternative is rebooting the Universe/characters. Marvel considers its top-tier heroes to be icons, not without justification. They won't age, anymore than Mickey Mouse, or Archie, or James Bond, because to do so kills the golden goose. 


watching: situation room

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Sep 2005 03:53 pm    
By RLG

Back in the 1980's, Marvel had 5 distinct titles (FF, UX, AMS, M/TU, and Avengers) devoted to, on a monthly basis, George O's superb efforts of explaining the passage of time within the Marvel U. Heck, Marvel even added the word "official" to each title. 

How "official" are THESE handbooks anyway? Can one small entry at the bottom of this issue's back cover negate everything that is stated in George O's work? 

- RLG

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Sep 2005 04:24 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

It may be a shot across the bow to a calendar as an end in itself, but what part of George's work are you contending has been negated by the entry? Specifically? 


watching: lou dobbs

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Sep 2005 08:30 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
It may be a shot across the bow to a calendar as an end in itself 


Not that the statement above is about my intentions, but just to clarify...the calendar I'm working on, while a gargantuan project, is not necessarily an end in itself -- it's a tool for understanding the sequence of events in the MU. Relative time presented as absolute time, at least as we perceive it. 

Given that the concept of a sliding timeline and the concept of stopped time defy the laws of physics as we know them anyway...then maybe some of us can subscribe to yet another impossible situation -- 

1) that days, weeks, months, and years actually do pass in the MU, at a rate suggested by the cumulative effect of many (but not necessarily all) short-term temporal references as shown in the comics themselves 

2) that this rate of time passage is slower than the real universe 

3) that time passage in the MU can be measured by a calendar (although one that cannot be translated into real-life years, given the sliding timeline of topical references and constant reader-based POV) 

4) but that, despite the passage of time on that calendar, adults (and Franklin Richards) just don't age physically anymore in the MU; people's ages are measured by their physical states and not by calendar years since their births -- perhaps humans in the MU are different from us in this regard, or perhaps something happened to human aging during one of those reality-warping events that the denizens of the MU don't even realize. 

At least this set of givens would get us around the matter of stopping time, which defies any sequence of events at all, since all events would happen at the same time. If time is stopped, there's no point in an MCP, since all appearances would be stacked on top of one another. Without a concept of time passage, relative order of appearances becomes irrelevant. "Before" and "after" are null and void. 

Given our options, I can live with the contradiction of 22 years passing since FF 1 (as measured on a calendar stringing together in-book temporal references and sequences of events) and Peter Parker and his contemporaries being physically about 30. And the contradiction that another 10 or 20 years will pass on the calendar with Pete still being...30. 

The disbelief has to be suspended somewhere. Folks just have to pick their own place.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Sep 2005 09:00 pm    
By shandrakor

On the whole, I agree with Paul B. here. 

This philosophy does lead to one possible impact to the calendar project, though. Cramming events in as tightly as possible in order to keep the "current year" low isn't important anymore. Large passages of time, such as the Avengers Disassembled 6-month period may not need to be discounted unless they're directly conflicting the passage of time in other books. 

Heck, it could be year 30 or 40 if we assume that most people have stopped, or drastically slowed aging and don't notice it.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Sep 2005 09:38 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Hunh. And this philosophy could then serve to free the calendar's creator. He could suffer no restraints at all. I've said all along that on *my* calendar, forty-four years have passed since FF 1. For that matter, this also means that Reed Richards was an OSS agent in World War II, and J. Jonah Jameson was a reporter in the thirties, and May Parker grew up in the Depression. 


watching: rutgers v. pittsburg

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Oct 2005 11:38 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

And on my calendar, it's currently the year 1976, and the world has been advanced to our level of technology by an influx of alien technology and superhero inventions. That's the beauty of Marvel Time - it can work any way you want it to, and every interpretation has its own ups and downs.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Oct 2005 01:52 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Yes, that's exactly what they're saying, and to be honest, I think they're right. The characters simply aren't going to age much further and for the universe to be viable at all, you've simply got to hurl a lot of artistic licence at it and stand well back. The timeline simply doesn't work on any other basis. There's no way Marvel are going to be publishing Spider-Man comics in 2050 featuring a middle-aged hero. The character simply isn't going to get much older than he already is. That's just the commercial reality of it, and there's not much point trying to pretend otherwise. 
<<<


I find it interesting that you of all people, Paul, seem to be in agreement that the characters shouldn't age any further than they already have. I've seen you written articles saying that the comic industry is stagnating, and I recently read an article of yours where you comment that the industry hasn't come out with anything new this year. You mention the "commerical reality" in your post, but the reality is, comic books are tanking. 

I also remember you posting in a review for Ultimate Spiderman #75, (if I'm remembering correctly), something to the effect of "This just leads me to believe that the mainstream, regular version of Spider-man has become a dead concept." 

The answer to this stagnation? Stop telling the same damn stories!!! You can only do "Spiderman vs. the Green Goblin" so many times before it gets old. Stan Lee and company didn't revitalize the comic book industry in the early 60's by telling the same type of stories that have come before. You can't keep things going to the year 2050 by continuing to tell the same old plots. And what goes along with that is to embrace the fact that characters age. They change, they evolve, they overcome... 

Ah well, I'm still happy that they're acknowleding, (sort of) that Peter Parker is 30 years old... 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

Last edited by Kevin W. on 01 Oct 2005 02:09 pm; edited 2 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Oct 2005 01:57 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Yep, and it has to be that way. The alternative is rebooting the Universe/characters. Marvel considers its top-tier heroes to be icons, not without justification. They won't age, anymore than Mickey Mouse, or Archie, or James Bond, because to do so kills the golden goose. 
<<<


Marvel's golden goose is dead anyway, or is dying, if some articles on the comic book industry are to be believed, (and I'm not just referring to articles by Paul O'Brien). 

And there is no need to reboot when the Ultimate universe serves the functions of keeping the characters locked into a time frame, (those of you who want your characters young forever: read the Ultimate books). 

I was going to bring up another peril of the character's not aging, but Paul B. phrased it perfectly: 

Quote: 
>>>
If time is stopped, there's no point in an MCP, since all appearances would be stacked on top of one another. Without a concept of time passage, relative order of appearances becomes irrelevant. "Before" and "after" are null and void. 
<<<

_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Oct 2005 02:07 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Marvel's golden goose is dead anyway, or is dying, if some articles on the comic book industry are to be believed, (and I'm not just referring to articles by Paul O'Brien). 
<<<

That's not the golden goose. I'm referring to movies, and toys. The public doesn't want to see movies or play with toys of a fifty-year-old Spider-Man, or a fifty-year-old Mary Jane. 


watching: syracuse v. florida state

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Oct 2005 02:17 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Hmmm. I see what you're saying, but I disagree: As far as movies go, Star Trek movies featuring a Captain Kirk, (and company) that were getting older, these did just fine at the box office. And there was a James Bond movie where Bond was old, (where Sean Connery returned to play the role of Bond)...true, they've since gone on to do more Bond films, (starring a younger James Bond), but the last couple of Bond films sank miserably at the box office, (and I believe it's because Bond is a dead concept...maybe if they had Bond killed off, and replace him with a younger, more modern secret agent...the "Triple X" films seem to have realized you can't do spy movies the old fashioned way anymore). 

And I edited my post above: with the Ultimate line of books, the characters can still be young. You can have it both ways! 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Oct 2005 02:23 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
I was going to bring up another peril of the character's not aging, but Paul B. phrased it perfectly: 

Quote: 
>>>
If time is stopped, there's no point in an MCP, since all appearances would be stacked on top of one another. Without a concept of time passage, relative order of appearances becomes irrelevant. "Before" and "after" are null and void. 
<<<

<<<

The fact that characters don't age, or that the Fantastic Four flew into space fifteen years ago has no effect on the sequential reading of stories. There are still before-and-after appearances. It does have an effect on calendar timelines. 

Inserting flashbacks can be problematical, but only if you follow the "fifteen-year" rule for FF 1, but revert to literal interpretation for the flashback. 

My take is that, for the time being, Marvel says that approximately three "real" years have passed for every one "Marvel" year. And yes, I know that progression changes in more recent years, due to vastly greater number of stories, but, on average, 3:1. 

If a story says that a flashback occurs nine years ago, I would tend to place it in the chronologies roughly concurrent with stories published 27 years ago. Unless, of course, events or characters in the flashback place it somewhere else. 


watching: florida v. alabama

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Oct 2005 09:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
The fact that characters don't age, or that the Fantastic Four flew into space fifteen years ago has no effect on the sequential reading of stories. There are still before-and-after appearances. It does have an effect on calendar timelines.  
<<<

That's right, and it's basically what I was suggesting earlier. The whole "null and void" comment was based on the concept of time stopping at 15 years from FF 1, not on the lack of character aging.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2005 12:02 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

When they say that the FF flight will always be 15 years ago, I don't interpret that to mean, "Time stops at fifteen years." I think they're saying time containing events from FF 1 to the ever-present now will continue to compress, further and further. 

To infinity. 

But events, and character appearances, will still follow each other in a linear fashion. 


watching: alabama v. florida (a replay, not unlike the ever-present now)

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2005 07:43 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
When they say that the FF flight will always be 15 years ago, I don't interpret that to mean, "Time stops at fifteen years." I think they're saying time containing events from FF 1 to the ever-present now will continue to compress, further and further.  
<<<

So basically, a story that used to happen over the course of weeks might soon take days, and some day will take hours, then minutes, and eventually mere seconds to transpire. A continual retconning of time. 

I think I'll stick to an immutable calendar -- based on a cumulation of in-book temporal references -- in which time does not compress...and let the aging chips fall where they may. Russ, your calendar has a ratio of 1 real year to 1 Marvel year, probably to account for topical real-world references. Mine happens to have a ratio of 2:1. I've been trying to follow Olshevsky's practice of calendar compilation, in which time passes more slowly in the MU than in real life, but which never met the Marvel rules for time passage (be it the old "ten year rule" or the current, unchanging "15 year rule"). In that practice, some references turn out to be topical because they are written from the POV of the reader's time.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2005 08:55 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
So basically, a story that used to happen over the course of weeks might soon take days, and some day will take hours, then minutes, and eventually mere seconds to transpire. A continual retconning of time. 
<<<

I see it rather as a process of double-think, where the individual stories take as long as they ever did, but by some mystical process, the sum total of time that has passed is always fifteen years. In other words, if you look at any particular slice of Marvel time, nothing much changes save for the revision of topical references; but if you look at the grand scheme of things, it will always total around fifteen years, mathematics be damned. 

This works just fine for the vast majority of stories, because it's very, very rare that a story will draw the reader's attention to the sheer volume of material that has to be fitted into the available space. Thus, while it's a logical impossibility, it's one that will slip under the reader's radar, and not affect their suspension of disbelief unless they make a consicous effort to stand back and look at the bigger picture. We do that sort of thing all the time, but the average reader doesn't.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2005 04:11 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director


Let's see if I can illustrate your point with an analogy. Say that the course of sequential events is like a rope with a beginning at point "A" (fifteen years ago) and an ending at point "B" (today). Marvel continues to lengthen the rope by adding new stories to the sequence of events, but as the rope gets longer, it maintains its anchor points at "A" and "B." The system accommodates the lengthening rope by coiling the rope back and forth. A rope that used to be a straight line is now a sine curve with the same end points. The peaks and troughs of the curve become higher and lower and the wave's frequency increases as new material is added. One travels through Marvel time by following the rope, so the sequence of events never changes. Relative time is maintained and to the usual reader, who takes in only a small portion of the rope at any time, things appear to be normal. To those of us who analyze the big picture, what we see is the impossibility of a lengthening rope that wraps back and forth, bunching ever more tightly and constantly retconning temporal references in the process. Those of us who like to track the sequence of events on a calendar are taking the rope and pulling it taut, points "A" and "B" be damned, but preserving some temporal references (at least those not deemed "topical") in the process.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2005 04:41 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Yes, that's not a bad way of putting it. There's an absolute sequence of events, but the overall timeline doesn't quite make sense because the total period of time which has passed is, inexplicably, clearly less than the sum total. This also has the handy side-effect of explaining how the Marvel Universe has succeeded in having 44 Christmasses in 15 years. 

This is why I tend to take references such as "weeks ago", "months ago" and so forth with a pinch of salt - such longer-term periods are at least hazy and uncertain in Marvel time, unless a specific reference point can be inferred from the context.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Oct 2005 08:38 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
My take is that, for the time being, Marvel says that approximately three "real" years have passed for every one "Marvel" year. And yes, I know that progression changes in more recent years, due to vastly greater number of stories, but, on average, 3:1. 

If a story says that a flashback occurs nine years ago, I would tend to place it in the chronologies roughly concurrent with stories published 27 years ago. Unless, of course, events or characters in the flashback place it somewhere else. 
<<< 


That's actually how I've come to view the flow of time in the Marvel universe. 3 "real" years equals 1 "Marvel" year, (on average). Which, if you divide up the past 44 years of real time stories, actually puts the number of years in the Marvel universe as being roughly 15 or 16 years since Fantastic Four #1. So my own personal theory lines up with what Marvel says, (for now). 

Now we'll just have to see what the next 40 years brings...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Oct 2005 09:57 am    
By BobMM

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
In fact, the HANDBOOK throws in a very interesting idea about the sliding timescale. They suggest (purely as a theory) that the sliding timescale is not merely a bit of artistic licence, but something which is actually happening in the Marvel Universe itself - an ongoing reality warp of some sort. 

My initial reaction on reading that was to groan and roll my eyes. But the more I think about it, the more it's growing on me. There's a certain Occam's Razor appeal to the idea that the MU appears to have a sliding timeline because it really does have a sliding timeline. It's certainly no screwier than anything else in Marvel Universe physics. It explains away all anomalies without invalidating anything. And it's not a cop-out, because the sliding timeline really is an absolutely integral feature of the Marvel Universe - so why not go the whole way and embed it in Marvel Universe physics? It's really quite neat and tidy. 
<<<

That's always been my take on it, although I've never been able to put it so concisely. Stories originally set in 1963 happened in 1963...AND they happened less than 15 years ago...AND it's currently 2005. That's just never been a problem for me to accept. If someone wants to say that this is a physical aspect of the MU, I'm fine with that -- just don't write stories about it, please!

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Jan 2007 06:32 pm    
By Truebeliever

Just out of curiousity... Is there any reason why the length of a Marvel year MUST be 365 days? Maybe the distance of the Marvel Sun to the Marvel Earth is different than is the case in our world.. Thus MUCH MUCH more can happen in the course of a year.... Perhaps a Marvel year equals 1095 or more with months of ninety or so days... Thus when someone on Marvel Earth is referred to as 25 years old they are actually 75 by our reckoning. 

This solution might seem wacky at first but it also seems less unreasonable than the sliding time line at least for me... 

The integrity of the older stories is maintained, (Flash Thompson can have served in Vietnam for example) 

It accounts for how characters like Spider-man and wolverine can have such an insane number of adventures in a given timeframe... 

Events don't need to crammed painfully close together

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Jan 2007 06:53 pm    
By Somebody

Two big problems with that: 

1) Aging. That idea ignores thefact that, however they looked, the characters would still be 70+ year olds and that would have obvious characterisation implications, not to mention differences caused in other behaviour patterns by elongated life. 

2) You're STILL stretching events, so that, as far as Wars go, Vietnam, WW2 (which has been shown to basically match RW-WW2),, etc would themselves have taken three times as long, so they'd be unrecognisable as the events they share their names with. So Flash Thompson WOULDN'T have served in the Vietnam War that we would recognise. 

And, hey, I know this was posted over a year ago, but since I just reread the thread after posting and it leapt out at me: 

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Hmmm. I see what you're saying, but I disagree: As far as movies go, Star Trek movies featuring a Captain Kirk, (and company) that were getting older, these did just fine at the box office. And there was a James Bond movie where Bond was old, (where Sean Connery returned to play the role of Bond)...true, they've since gone on to do more Bond films, (starring a younger James Bond), but the last couple of Bond films sank miserably at the box office, (and I believe it's because Bond is a dead concept...maybe if they had Bond killed off, and replace him with a younger, more modern secret agent...the "Triple X" films seem to have realized you can't do spy movies the old fashioned way anymore). 
<<<

1) Never Say Never Again was an "unofficial" Bond movie, created through a rights snafu whereby the Thunderball writer held the movie rights to the story. To put it in comic terms, it's like Stan Lee somehow held absolute rights to Fantastic Four #48-50, and went on to use those rights to write a Coming of Galactus mini starring an older F4... for DC. Such a mini would have no impact on what Marvel did with their F4. 

2) Die Another Day did what was the highest absolute B.O. for any Bond movie at that point. 

3) Where does the "Ultimisation" of Bond with Casino Royale (which has now beaten DAD's B.O.) fall into this theory? 

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Jan 2007 07:26 pm    
By Truebeliever

Thanks for your response Somebody! 
I disagree somewhat. 

Bear in mind that many of the differences in behavior between young and old are to do with socially expected norms and the relative age of the individual. the "70 year-old" acts young because he IS relative to the people in his world. 
I also tend to think that age related behavioral change have as much to do with biological/hormonal factors as wisdom gained from experience. 
Another thing to consider; ALL the major marvel characters have had a vastly more eventful "fifteen years" than most people in our world experience in 70 yet continue to act their age . They also seem psychologically different to real people, shrugging off traumas that people in our world would take decades to get over... This holds true not just for the heroes but for the supporting cast as well. 

Yes I am stretching historical events such as World War II and Vietnam... In my view that isnt really a bad thing... It certainly makes the vast number of world war II adventures Nick Fury and his Howling Commandos undertook more feasible. Ditto Punisher in Vietnam. 

As to whether these conflicts would be unrecognisable from their real world counterparts I think they sort of are already. The World War II of the Marvel Earth features such prominent historical figures as Captain America Submariner Human Torch I the Red Skull and Baron Zemo... 
Clearly plenty of stuff happened that didnt in the real world

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Jan 2007 11:16 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Truebeliever wrote: 
>>>
Bear in mind that many of the differences in behavior between young and old are to do with socially expected norms and the relative age of the individual. the "70 year-old" acts young because he IS relative to the people in his world. 
I also tend to think that age related behavioral change have as much to do with biological/hormonal factors as wisdom gained from experience.  
<<<

I think you've both got valid points; however, I think Somebody has a little weightier arguement given Truebeliever's initial suggestion for the number of days he'd like to add to the calendar. 

If a year is 1095 days long in the MU, a person of 30 is 32,850 days old. In a year of 365 days, that's a 90 year old we're looking at. In either case, the person has been on the planet for the same amount of time (32850 days) and -- unless MU inhabitants age much slower -- would suffer the same ailments in either case. Even if you assume the earth rotates slower (which would force you to start explaining a whole new set of physics) then you've still got characters who are 788,400 hours old regardless of the length of the day or year. I think this is where Somebody is coming from. 

However, Truebeliever, you do have a point that a lot of what we believe relative to whether a person is old or young are socially fabricated beliefs. That we have people retire at 65 is an arbitrary decision made in the 1930s. Why set the driving age at 16, the draft age at 18 and drinking age at 21? That we define young and old through social mores like these does indeed affect how people live their lives. Characters like Peter Parker and Johnny Storm act differently now than they did when they were first created, in part because they've "grown up" into a society that has expected them to "grow up." 

That said, though, there are biological functions -- puberty, menopause, Alzheimer's, etc. -- that are tied, in some capacity, to physical age. Yes, current dietary standards seem to be lowering the mean age of puberty's onset, estrogen shots can reduce the impact of menopause, and continued mental exercise can slow the onslaught of Alzheimer's, but they're still age-related afflictions that can occur regardless of a person's outlook. 

And that, I think, is where you start running into problems with your theory, Truebeliever. You start having to re-write laws of time, aging, and physics in general to get it to work, and you'll find that you'll keep opening new cans of worms. 


Truebeliever wrote: 
>>>
Another thing to consider; ALL the major marvel characters have had a vastly more eventful "fifteen years" than most people in our world experience in 70 yet continue to act their age .  
<<<

Well, all of the major characters in the MU still only amounts to around 4,500 people. I daresay that it wouldn't be very hard at all to find 4,500 people in the real world who lived vastly more eventful lives than most of the rest of us.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jan 2007 04:32 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Truebeliever wrote: 
>>>
This solution might seem wacky at first but it also seems less unreasonable than the sliding time line at least for me...  
<<<

Well, first of all, the sliding timeline is canon, and it's been emphatically embedded by stories like MARVEL: THE LOST GENERATION. So really, the question of whether it's unreasonable is somewhat academic. 

However, I think the sliding timeline is preferable to your suggestion, which would involve a world where everyone lives to the age of 350, and where characters presented as teenagers had a mental age of 60. That drags the Marvel Universe so far from the real world that I can't see how it's a remotely preferable option. 

The only truly satisfactory way to approach Marvel time is simply to shrug your shoulders and accept that it doesn't make sense, but that they can get away with it because of artistic licence. Overly literal approaches are doomed to failure.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jan 2007 08:04 am    
By Truebeliever

Official Canon or not, to me the sliding timeline involves doing more violence to the existing body of work than my suggestion. I am in favor of a solution that allows us to retain as many of these stories AS THEY WERE WRITTEN as possible. 
A look at series like Busiek's Untold Tales of Spider-Man or Dan Slott's Spider-Man and the Human Torch would certainly suggest to me that "Ten Years Ago" does not mean '1997' even in today's comics. 

There is no way to get past the absence of laptops and cell phones and the presence of communist villains in these old stories except to suggest that from a current perspective those events transpired in a way that is SO DIFFERENT from what was depicted in the comics of the time that long-term continuity projects as detailed as the MCP are meaningless. (apologies for the obscenely long sentence  ) 


The longlived characters explanation for me requires LESS additional explanation... As to whether it renders the Marvel Universe too different from our own to be relatable... In my opinion most of the similarities that already exist are cosmetic and superficial. When you actually dig a little into what that world looks like and the nature of the people who live in it, it doesnt resemble our world any more than Tolkien's Middle Earth resembles medieval europe.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jan 2007 11:20 am
By ADMINISTRATOR

Truebeliever wrote: 
>>>
There is no way to get past the absence of laptops and cell phones and the presence of communist villains in these old stories except to suggest that from a current perspective those events transpired in a way that is SO DIFFERENT from what was depicted in the comics of the time that long-term continuity projects as detailed as the MCP are meaningless. 
<<<

I disagree. You've got it backwards. 

Your dilemma only makes the MCP "meaningless" if you interpret our mission as an attempt to explain how much time has passed, but that's never been our purpose. 

We're attempting to provide an order for reading the stories, and that has nothing to do with laptops or cell phones or communist villains. 

Examining the passage of time is one of the many tools for determining the proper order of the stories, not the other way around. 


watching: judge joe brown

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Jan 2007 12:31 pm    
By Col_Fury

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
3) Where does the "Ultimisation" of Bond with Casino Royale (which has now beaten DAD's B.O.) fall into this theory?   
<<<

Good question. Unofficially, it's a reboot of the series. Officially, it's just another Bond movie, unconcerned with continuity. Casino Royale is very good, by the way. One of the best of the series.(I've only seen it three times) It's also closest to the source material the movies have gotten since On Her Majesty's Secret Service.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Mar 2007 09:41 am    
By Enda80

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
To put it in comic terms, it's like Stan Lee somehow held absolute rights to Fantastic Four #48-50, and went on to use those rights to write a Coming of Galactus mini starring an older F4... for DC. Such a mini would have no impact on what Marvel did with their F4. <<<

Think of Dark Horse's Conan comics, or maybe Dynamite's Red Sonja comics for a similar situation. Has any other company used Fu Manchu since MOKF ended? 

Another analogy would be the Romero Dead films. The various remakes of those films have no connection to each other, though oddly enough Day of the Dead will come out 17 years after the 1990 NOLD remake and Ving Rhambes will appear in both the Dawn and Dead remakes.

			*	*	*

Thread 4

Posted: 05 Mar 2007 02:54 pm    Post subject: Real life characters under different names
By Adamant

Just wondering, how does the projects deal with stuff like this? In the Golden Age, it was somewhat common to not refer to the villains by their actual names, so we got stuff like "Hiller" in the first Marvel Boy story, "Hitler's right hand man, Doering" in All-Winners #5, and "Adolphe Hiccup and Benny Musclein of Slaveland" in Human Torch Comics #3. 

Are these considered separate characters, are filed under the character they're obviously supposed to represent?

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Mar 2007 11:49 pm    
By Col_Fury

Personally, I consider them the same characters. It's obvious who it was intended to be, clever alias or not. 

I think the reason they aren't listed is because these are Golden Age comics and haven't been analyzed yet. I suggested placements for Adolph & Benito in my analysis of the Human Torch, but I haven't gotten around to my Masterworks of All-Winners yet.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 5

Posted: 06 Mar 2007 07:00 pm    Post subject: AWC 65/2 Normandy fb to 1944?
By Enda80

On page 25, we see an image of the Human Torch and Toro at what seems to be the landing at Normandy. Hammond narrates "While our guys waded ashore" to tear down "Fortress Europa".

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Mar 2007 09:16 pm    
By Col_Fury

Looking through AWC 65, I have to agree with Enda80 that this scene takes place on D-Day, 6 June 1944. The date is not stated in the comic, but it's written by Roy Thomas, so it's pretty obvious what this is supposed to be. 

The AWC 65/2-FB pg1 is a splash page of what was previously described. AWC 65/2-FB pg2pn1 is a recap of Sub-Mariner 14, with no new information. Everything else takes place in the 'current day.' 

Some placement suggestions: 

HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND 
... 
M/U 3 
AWC 65/2-FB 
CA '01-FB (08/44) 
... 

TORO/TOM RAYMOND 
... 
M/U 1-FB 
AWC 65/2-FB 
CA '01-FB (08/44) 
... 

Thanks for pointing this out!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Posted: 06 Mar 2007 02:09 pm    Post subject: Illuminati #2
By simmo

For the life of me I can't work out where this fits in. After the Thanos series from 2003?

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Mar 2007 03:33 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

It presumably follows closely on the heels of She-Hulk Vol. 3 #12, (in which She-Hulk defeats Titania for possession of the Power Gem).
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Mar 2007 03:51 pm    
By Mikhail

So it must be after Disassembled and She-Hulk #1-12, but before House of M since Xavier is still telepathic and crippled. Xavier was technically living in Genosha that whole time, though, so just have to make an assumption that he and the Illuminati "snuck in" to the mansion to use Cerebro.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Mar 2007 09:08 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yes, this placement is correct. Xavier's presence at the Institute is only slightly problematic and wouldn't necessarily have to have involved any sneaking. 

Also, NA:I2 2 must occur after X4 5, given that Reed learned in X4 1 that Xavier was no longer with the Institute. 

I also put NA:I2 2 before A4 1, figuring NA:I2 2 predates the first published appearance of the Illuminati in A4 7.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Mar 2007 04:07 am    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Yes, this placement is correct. Xavier's presence at the Institute is only slightly problematic and wouldn't necessarily have to have involved any sneaking. 
<<<

Given the characterisationenema he got in Danger wouldn't it need to be before AXM12 (and hence before AXM7 and possibly during the inserted AXM1-gap)? 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I also put NA:I2 2 before A4 1, figuring NA:I2 2 predates the first published appearance of the Illuminati in A4 7. 
<<<

Any particular reason?

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Mar 2007 07:14 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Given the characterisationenema he got in Danger wouldn't it need to be before AXM12 (and hence before AXM7 and possibly during the inserted AXM1-gap)? 
<<<

Yes, I have NA:I2 2 before ASTONX3 7. 

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Any particular reason [for NA:I2 2 going before A4 1]? 
<<<

I may be wrong, but I think the N:AI2 series is intended to show us adventures of the Illuminati before they were first introduced in A4 7. Given that the Illuminati meet to discuss the formation of the New Avengers in A4 7, I figured a previous meeting of the Illuminati would need to occur before the Raft breakout that brought the New Avengers together.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Mar 2007 07:23 am    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I may be wrong, but I think the N:AI2 series is intended to show us adventures of the Illuminati before they were first introduced in A4 7. Given that the Illuminati meet to discuss the formation of the New Avengers in A4 7, I figured a previous meeting of the Illuminati would need to occur before the Raft breakout that brought the New Avengers together. 
<<<

Next issue (possibly not the whole next issue, but certainly the whole series after that) skips to post-Civil War, since #4's a follow-up to Noh-Varr and CW:YAv/Runaways. 

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Illuminati/01/Illum01_Bendis.html

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Mar 2007 07:06 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hmm. Thanks for that bit of news. I suppose I'll keep my placement before A4 1, where other criteria for placement are met, unless someone can suggest a better spot post-A4 7.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Posted: 11 May 2006 11:45 am    Post subject: Ares #4... [SPOILER]
By Somebody

Ares #4 includes the words "Five Years Later". 

If the character is really joining the Avengers/a major team, there's a potential "Uh-Oh" here.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 May 2006 08:27 pm    
By journeyman335

Does this necessaraly happen in the Marvel Universe? Isnt the world of the Gods something seperate? Could time move faster there? Could I end any other sentances with a question? 

Just my interpretation of the book.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2006 03:00 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

From memory, I believe there's some suggestion in issue #1 that subjective time for the Olympians moves faster than time on Earth.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2006 08:27 am    
By jephyork
Director

Without having read any of the series, is there anything that anchors issues #1-3 in the present day? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2006 08:34 am    
By JD

#1 is partly set in the past, but most of the action of #1-3 is clearly set as post-Ragnarok/Disassembled.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 May 2006 11:06 am   
By jephyork
Director

Hmm. Jeph's preliminary diagnosis: 

Place #1-3 immediately after Disassembled. 
Place #4-5 immediately before he joins the major team, whenever that will be. 
Wince and swallow the remainder of the "five years". 

Repeat as necessary. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Jul 2006 05:58 pm    
By Somebody

Well, there's no temporal reset in #5 - the 5YL stands (OTOH, there aren't any further jumps). 

Wait and see whether Ares *is* joining the Avengers/other now, I suppose.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Mar 2007 12:03 pm    
By Somebody

So, any reference to this mini in Mighty Avengers #1? 

[Dincinentally, what's going to be the MightyAv code? A5? ]

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Mar 2007 05:14 pm    
By Col_Fury

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
So, any reference to this mini in Mighty Avengers #1? 
<<<

He's still raising his kid... that's about it. 


Somebody wrote: 
>>>
incinentally, what's going to be the MightyAv code? A5?  
<<<

That's a good question. Since we now have two Avengers books running concurrently again, maybe it should be NA & MA?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Mar 2007 08:58 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
incinentally, what's going to be the MightyAv code? A5?  
<<<

That's a good question. Since we now have two Avengers books running concurrently again, maybe it should be NA & MA? 
<<<

I'm sure there are exceptions, but... 

We have a long-standing policy of not using title adjectives in our codes. It's never been MT for Mighty Thor, or IIM for Invincible Iron Man, or IH for Incredible Hulk. 

There are two qualifying exceptions to this rule. 

1) If the adjective is intrinsically tied to the title/character: FANTASTIC Four (FF), NEW Mutants (NM), NEW Warriors (NW); 

2) If the title with the adjective was published during a period which coincided with an adjectiveless duplicate title: Spider-Man/Amazing Spider-Man (S-M/ASM), X-Men/Uncanny X-Men (X/UX). 

The book that currently says "New Avengers" on the cover is coded A4 here; the book that says "Mighty Avengers" on the cover will be coded MA. 


watching: america's most wanted

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Mar 2007 10:04 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I'm not entirely clear how "NEW Mutants" is different from "NEW Avengers". 

Okay, there's the obvious difference -- there was a previous "Avengers" book, but there was no previous "Mutants" book. However, in context, the usage of "New" is exactly the same. 

The New Mutants are called the New Mutants because they were the school's newest group of mutants. And the New Avengers are called the New Avengers because they were the newest group of Avengers. 

So, basically, we only ignore the word "new" if there was a previous book of that title without the "new"? 

Sounds convoluted to me. And it gets worse when you consider the current volume of "New X-Men". 

So now, we only ignore the word "new" if (a) there was a previous book of that title without the "new", AND (b) there isn't a current book by that title. 

If either of those criteria fall through, we keep the "new". 

AND -- as an added bonus -- consider this: we DON'T include the "mighty" in "Mighty Thor", but we DO include it in "Mighty Avengers". 

My brain hurts.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Mar 2007 08:10 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
So, any reference to this mini in Mighty Avengers #1? 
<<<

Carol Danvers suggests Ares for membership. She seems to know about Ares from recent experience, but I don't see that in the Ares mini.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Mar 2007 11:41 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
AND -- as an added bonus -- consider this: we DON'T include the "mighty" in "Mighty Thor", but we DO include it in "Mighty Avengers". 
<<<

If this strikes you as a dichotomy, I'm surprised you're not referring to the book that came out this week as "Mighty Avengers Volume 2."  


watching: pink panther

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Mar 2007 12:27 pm    
By Somebody

One of these things though - I borderline get coding New Avengers as A4. In NO WAY do I get having "AVENGERS VOL. 4" beside A4 under "TITLE KEY By KEY"

			*	*	*

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
In NO WAY do I get having "AVENGERS VOL. 4" beside A4 under "TITLE KEY By KEY" 
<<<

Fair enough.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Mar 2007 09:42 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I'm surprised you're not referring to the book that came out this week as "Mighty Avengers Volume 2" 
<<<

My personal format for organizing comics takes into account both the title on the cover and the title in the indicia. "Avengers, vol.1", did occasionally have the words "The Mighty" above the title, but those words have never appeared in the indicia. So I list it under the letter A. 

(Also, a case can be made that the headline "The Mighty" came and went as various logo designers saw fit -- that it wasn't considered, by them or by the editors who approved the logos, to be an indispensible part of the title.) 

Ditto "The Invincible Iron Man". The indicia consistently lists it just as "Iron Man" -- and therefore so do I. 

On the other hand, "The Incredible Hulk" does have the adjective "Incredible" in the indicia. So I list it under the letter I. 

1963's "X-Men" became "The Uncanny X-Men" in the indicia long before the second "X-Men" series launched. I've always listed it under U, even back then. 

To me, the proof of whether or not Marvel considers the adjective to be part of the book's official title is in the indicia. (Yes, there are exceptions back in the early days of marvel, but the format has long since been standardized.) 

All these "New" books out lately? Well, the word "New" is in the indicia... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Posted: 11 Mar 2007 04:32 pm    Post subject: Flashbacks in CAP 25
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Mostly a question for Col_Fury, but anyone can feel free to chime in. Any idea where the scenes on pages 1-3, page 7 (newsreel), and pages 10-11 of CA5 25 fit into Cap's early chronology? I'm not sure how much new information is here, but some of the panels may not be material we've seen before exactly. 

BTW, here's where put the following flashbacks in CA5 25: 

page 8, panels 1-3 -- Cap fights Batroc as Sharon looks on 
(between panels 3 and 4 on page 9 of TOS 75/2) 

page 8, panels 4-5 -- Cap chases Sharon Carter across rooftops, he catches up to her and they prepare to kiss; I believe Sharon wears the clothes we saw her wear in CA 153-156 
(between SGTF 100 and H2 152) 

page 29, panel 2 -- Cap and the Falcon (in his original costume) and Redwing fight thugs; I put this very early in Steve's and Sam's formal partnership 
(between CA 133 and A 280-FB) 

page 29, panel 3 -- Falcon (in the costume with the wings he received in A 171) and Redwing fly away from Cap, who stands on a building roof 
(must be after CA 184, but placement is pretty open) 

As an aside, I find it funny that Peggy Carter is now referred to as Sharon's aunt instead of her sister, as she was in comics published in the '70s. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Mar 2007 11:03 pm   
By Col_Fury

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Mostly a question for Col_Fury, 
<<<

Aw, shucks... 

A quick breakdown of scenes: 

CA5 25-FB pg1pn1 
Depression era Steve walks down the street.(I have this as him walking to the theater, he seems to be wearing the same clothes in both panels) 

CA5 25-FB pg1pn2 
Steve at the movies watching newsreels of Germany.(in between panels of M/SH 3-FB) 

CA5 25-FB pg1pn3 
Steve getting a physical.(he actually got two, unhappy with the results of the first one.(both declared him 4-F) I have this as part of his first) 

CA5 25-FB pg1pn4 
Prof. Erskine tests Steve while Gen. Phillips watches.(shortly after CA 255-FB pg3pn5. This isn't part of the actual experiment, because pg1pn4 & pg2pn1 are out of sequence with established events. Therefore, this is part of the testing preceding Cap's origin) 

CA5-FB pg2 
Repeat of Captain America Comics 1, Tales of Suspense 63, Captain America 109-FB and a few others. No new information. 

CA5-FB pg3 
Cap, Bucky, Human Torch, and Toro in France(repeated on pg7pn1 on newsreel) 

CA5 25-FB pg7pn2-pg7pn3 
Cap and Peggy Carter in France.(with the Invaders present, this is tied to CA5 3-FB) 

CA5-FB pg10pn1 
Cap defeats bundists at the shipyards.(scene seems to be continued from CA 255-FB pg17pn1-pg17pn3. Original shield) 

CA5 25-FB pg10pn2-pg11 
Cap and Bucky defeat Nazi troops with the help of American GIs.(I have this in late June 1944, thanks to those American uniforms) 

Some placement suggestions: 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
... 
CA: SL2 7/2 (4)-FB (1938) 
*CA5 25 (1:1)-FB 
M/SH3 3 (4-5:5)-FB 
*CA5 25 (1:2)-FB 
M/SH3 3 (5:6)-FB 
CA 255 (3:4)-FB 
CA 176 (2:4-2:5)-FB 
CA: SL2 7/2 (5:1-5:4)-FB 
CA 255 (3:5)-FB 
*CA5 25 (1:3)-FB 
CA 176 (2:6-2:7)-FB 
CA: SL2 7/2 (5:5-5:6)-FB 
CA 109 (9)-FB 
... 
CA 255 (5:1)-FB 
*CA5 25 (1:4)-FB 
M/SH3 3 (10-19:3)-FB 
 
CA@ 13/2-FB 
CA 255 (17:1-17:3)-FB 
*CA5 25 (10:1)-FB 
CA 255 (17:4-17:7)-FB 
CA: SL2 7/2 (1) 
 
TOS 71/2 
*CA5 25 (10:2-11)-FB 
H2 284 
 
TOS 75/2-FB 
*CA5 25 (3)-FB 
TOS 77/2 (3-5)-FB 
CA5 3 (16-18:1)-FB (08/44) 
*CA5 25 (7:2-7:3)-FB 
TOS 77/2 (6-10:6)-FB 
CA5 3 (18:2)-FB 
CA: DMR 2-FB 
 

BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN BUCKY BARNES 
 
CA 109-FB pg1-pg6pn2 (06/06/44) 
*CA5 25-FB pg10pn2-pg11 
H2 284 
CA '01-FB (08/44) 
*CA5 25 (3)-FB 
CA5 3-FB (08/44) 
 

HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND 
 
CA '01-FB (08/44) 
*CA5 25-FB 
CA5 3-FB (08/44) 
 

TORO/TOM RAYMOND 
 
CA '01-FB (08/44) 
*CA5 25-FB 
CA5 3-FB (08/44) 
 

PROFESSOR REINSTEIN/ABRAHAM ERSKINE 
 
CA 255 (5:1)-FB 
*CA5 25-FB 
CA 00-FB 
 

PHILLIPS, GEN. RICHARD CHESTER 
 
CA 255 (5:1)-FB 
*CA5 25-FB 
CA 00-FB 
 

CARTER, PEGGY 
... 
TOS 75/2-FB 
TOS 77/2 (3-5)-FB 
CA5 25 (7:2-7:3)-FB 
TOS 77/2 (6-10:6)-FB 
 

As for CA5 25 (7:1)-FB & (7:4)-FB in Peggy's chronology, I don't own CA 161... but I'm assuming before that. The same with Sharon; I don't own CA 162, so I don't know what's in that FlashBack. But at least before TOS 75/2. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
As an aside, I find it funny that Peggy Carter is now referred to as Sharon's aunt instead of her sister 
<<<

I always liked to think they were so close they were 'like' sisters. Y'know, sliding time-line and all that. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Mar 2007 06:03 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
I always liked to think they were so close they were 'like' sisters. Y'know, sliding time-line and all that.  
<<<

Yeah, and before long, Peggy will be Sharon's great aunt. 

Thanks for the suggested placements of CA5 25 flashbacks in Cap's early history. I knew you'd have this figured out! 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 9

Posted: 10 Mar 2007 01:11 am    Post subject: Marvel: The Lost Generation
By wolframbane

I am working on incorporating the events of MARVEL: THE LOST GENERATION into the Marvel Timeline. I was wondering if anyone has done any research as to what years these stroies have occurred. 

For example, OHOTMU:M/K suggests Nick Fury (with a bionic eye) encountered First Line during the 'late 1950s/early 1960s' in MLG 9 or 10. And Reed Richards and Ben Grimm were still students at ESU in MLG 11 or 12.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Mar 2007 02:12 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

I interviewed Roger Stern right before the book came out, and he actually made it a point to make temporal references hard to pin down... 


Roger Stern wrote: 
>>>
We're not nailing down the time periods on the early issues that come out. Or really the time that elapses between them. At the beginning of the series, we're seeing several characters towards the end of their careers. And at the end, we're seeing characters at the beginning of their careers. And some of those characters are going to come along, have a career, retire, maybe die, be injured or whatever and go away. Captain Hip and Sunshine are actually characters that sort of reinvent themselves a couple times during the book. For instance, we're dealing with some characters who are either long-lived or quasi-immortal and for those characters that aren't, we're being more vague about what time period they're in. So we have some characters like Captain Hip who may be long-lived and in a specific period and then something happened that we don't know. Whereas we have other characters that are already established like Nick Fury and Dr. Strange, who are very long-lived and for all intents and purposes don't age, to play sort of Greek chorus and appear in several stories. And it doesn't affect any Marvel stuff because they don't get any older... 

I've got to be very careful about that so that in 20 years these stories should basically work. Now the issues may be five years apart instead of three years apart. Or whatever. 
<<<

I realize that doesn't provide much help, but that gives you the writer's intentions at least.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Mar 2007 02:19 pm    
By Somebody

Wait a minute - the story where Strange stopped aging was after his masked period/the founding of the Defenders. Whassupwithat?

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Mar 2007 09:04 pm    
By Enda80

The Ancient One and the Aged Ghengis were shown to be centuries old, so Stern reasoned that such sorcerers could suppress their age. *However*, there have been quite a few stories (MSH, MCP, Arnie Green's intro story, Kenneth Ward, etc.) where Doctor Strange has reconnected with acquaintances from when he was a surgeon or in medical school-so those acquaintances present a problem (how come they do not seem to age? are they know children or proteges or nephews and nieces of people Strange knew in his salad days?. 

Incidentally, Doc III#8+9 showed that Mordo did not age while inhabiting the Ancient One's Sanctuary, so this may apply to Strange as well. 

http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Data_Corrections_Marvel_Knights_2005 

Data Corrections is also a place to explain why questioned issues are not actual corrections.. 
Doctor Stranges date of birth: 
Strange is confirmed in the MARVEL: LOST GENERATION series to have been active for many years before the modern era. 
The 1990s Tales from the Book of the Vishanti (from DR. STRANGE: SORCERER SUPREME) said that "decades" passed between 1943 and Strange's accident. The accident was set in 1963 (since 1973 would not have allowed a long enough timespan between the DS/Black Fox/Pixie story in LOST GENERATION and Strange's first meeting with the Fox prior to that). 
Strange's birthdate was set in 1930 because that makes him 33 when he had his fall from grace, making him (as we've always been told he was) sort of a wunderkind to have become such a world-renowned surgeon at such a comparatively young age. 
As a sorcerer who has been referred to as having slowed aging a number of times, Strange's birthdate can stay fixed in time no matter how much time passes.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Mar 2007 02:20 am    
By Frederic Krier

Quote: 
>>>
*However*, there have been quite a few stories (MSH, MCP, Arnie Green's intro story, Kenneth Ward, etc.) where Doctor Strange has reconnected with acquaintances from when he was a surgeon or in medical school-so those acquaintances present a problem 
<<<

At least in Doctor Strange: The Oath, Strange's old friend Jonas Hilt from his medical school days looks much older in the present day sequences than in the flashbacks (his corpse has grey hair), while Nicodemus West, who we learn is the surgeon that treated Strange after his accident, doesn't seem to have aged (but he's been an apprentice of the Ancient One too).

			*	*	*

Thread 10

Posted: 11 Mar 2007 07:12 pm    Post subject: Spot the villains
By Somebody

Running through the bulk of the Ant-Man analysis right now so I've got less work to do when #6 comes out this week, and in the Big HYDRA attack, lots of villains I don't recognise. Some are obviously generics (and, yes, that's obviously Elektra in the forefront of the last pic), but the rest (I don't include the silhouettes or the blatant generics in the bottom rows behind Elektra) I'm not sure about. Either way, none of them - except, obviously, from Elektra - were shown AFAICS in the Enemy of the State story the BHA originally comes from. 

Anybody recognise them? 

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Mar 2007 05:58 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Wow. Is this a...Marvel...comic? No idea who all these characters are! The only one that looks familiar is the white-haired guy in the panel that has "BA" in it. Could it be Red Ghost?? 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Mar 2007 02:05 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Doesn't strike me as likely to be Red Ghost. He's got the right hair, but that's about it. 

The green guy in that same panel, though, I would guess is Powerkeg, last seen in Dan Slott's first She-Hulk #5. I don't have a good shot of him handy, though, for comparison.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Mar 2007 02:14 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

The guy in the "OM!!!" panel looks kind of Darkhawk-ish, I think.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Mar 2007 02:22 pm
By Somebody

I'm sure that's not the Red Ghost. Powderkeg, I'll check. 

SKleefeld wrote: 
>>>
The guy in the "OM!!!" panel looks kind of Darkhawk-ish, I think. 
<<<

Yeah, I caught the resemblance there - the thing that's making me hesitate is that most of these guys will either die in the Helicarrier crash or at Wolverine [& Sentinels'] hands shortly afterwards, never mind the brainwashing itself. Where did EotS fall relative to Runaways v2 #1-6. Maybe if it's before, and this was part of the cause of his as-Darkhawk rages or something, but I'd still hesitate...

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Mar 2007 09:17 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I have Enemy of the State before RUN2 1, FWIW. 

I think Powderkeg is a good guess.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Mar 2007 10:19 am    
By jephyork
Director

If everyone attacking the helicarrier was a killed-and-resurrected-and-brainwashed villain, then that kind of rules out Darkhawk... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Mar 2007 12:17 pm    
By Somebody

As of the middle of Wolverine #26, they had thirty-seven villains and four heroes, and they may well have picked up more between then and the Big HYDRA Attack (since there were certainly more than 41 on the splash pages - I make it closer to 100 between the W26 splash and the panel with Elektra above). I'm not prepared to swear either way, but it's not rule-out-able on that basis alone.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2007 01:34 am    
By jephyork
Director

How did Darkhawk get hisself de-brainwashed, then? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2007 02:01 am    
By JLH

Maybe it's Portal, now wearing the newer looking Darkhawk model suit thing. Yes, I'm making absurd leaps of logic. 

As for the title of the thread... Yes, The Spot IS a villain.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2007 03:56 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

As I recall, the original scene as drawn by John Romita Jr featured a whole load of random supervillains apparently made up for the purpose - or at the very least, characters so thorougly obscure that they might as well have been. So I'd assume Phil Hester just took the same line when drawing the sequence again for ANT-MAN.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Posted: 03 Mar 2007 02:14 am    Post subject: Howling Commandos notes
By Col_Fury

For anyone interested: 

The majority of Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos is told in a linear fashion. The first few issues are stand-alone stories, and as time went on sub plots began to form. Junior was Killed In Action in issue 4, Pam Hawley was introduced in issue 4 and killed in issue 18. Both of these events are referenced several times throughout the series. Baron Strucker was introduced in issue 5, formed the Blitzkrieg Squad in issue 14, and later Colonel Klaue was introduced in issue 39 and later took over the Blitz Squad in issue 41. 

The plots followed each other like any other book, but there are a lot of botched real-world references. Also, other books like the Invaders & Marvel Universe 1-3, pushed back the time frame originally set out for the Howlers, which didn't help the early real-world references. 

As far as I can tell, issues 1-36 take place through 1942. Issues 37-52-ish take place in 1943. Issues 53-ish-98(for the most part*) take place in 1944. 

Sgt. Fury Annual 1 takes place during the Korean War. Fury is promoted to Lt. 

Sgt. Fury Annual 2 takes place just before and during D-Day, 5-6 June 1944. 

Sgt. Fury Annual 3 is a then 'current day' story. 

Sgt. Fury Annual 4 takes place during the Battle of the Bulge, 16-25 December 1944. 

Sgt. Fury Annual 6 has a 'current day' book-end sequence, around reprints. 

A quick list of reprint issues: 80, 82, 85, 87, 89, 91, 93, 95, 99, 101, 103, 105, 107, 109, 111, 113, & 121-167, Annuals 5 & 7. 

Issue 100 is a 'current day' story, celebrating 100 issues of Sgt. Fury, and then the time-line starts jumping around all over the place.(almost like an unlabeled anthology) The cast of the book is pared down as of 102 so there aren't any contradictory character appearances, some issues give dates, some don't. Here are some of my notes: 

Sgt Fury 102 follows Sgt Fury 98, 104 is continued from Combat Kelly 3, & is continued in 4. 

Sgt Fury 106 & 108 take place in Dresden, noted as February 1945. Sawyer is now a Colonel. 

Sgt Fury 110 takes place after D-Day, but before France is liberated. That would be July/Aug 1944. 

Sgt Fury 112, 114-117 take place before Germany retreats from Africa,(which was May 1943), or before Sgt. Fury 43. Sawyer is still a Captain. 

Sgt Fury 118 takes place in Africa, noted as 30 August, 1942. There's an editor's note that places this before issue 6, but that was before Invaders pushed things around. I'm taking the Invaders 'new information' plus the date, and placing this between issues 29 & 30. 

Sgt Fury 119 takes place in Switzerland, noted as 10 October 1944. 

Sgt Fury 120 takes place around Dusseldorf, early in the Howlers career, Izzy learns a lesson, Fury gives a speech. No date given, but I have it in 1942... Septemberish. 

I'm not suggesting any placements here... I'm just throwing some notes out. As much as I'd like to stick to real-world references, plot and character appearances have to take priority. Sometimes I just have to ignore the Howlers helping destroy the Ploesti oil fields. Twice. 

*There's some strange things going on with with the cast in Sgt. Fury 94-102, Annual 4, & Combat Kelly 1-4. I haven't quite nailed that down yet... I'm getting to it.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Mar 2007 07:39 pm    
By Ron Flick

I've been slogging through the Howlers timeline intermittently these past few years and have come to the conclusion that I will never be satisfied with anything that tries to make sense of it. What a gargantuan mess. 

What I cannot accept is the retconning of the formation of the Howlers from late 1942 to early 1942. I really liked how the flashbacks were developed in issues 34, 44, and 62, in which Fury and Dugan had early adventures in Europe and Africa on their own before the Howlers were formed in late 1942. This paralleled what actually transpired during the war, in which the American commando squads did not see action until late 1942 in northern Africa. The had formed and trained during the summer with the British commandos and saw limited action in Africa in 1942. It wasn't until 1943 that the commandos were really off and runnning. 

Any references to the Howlers and other American troops traipsing around Europe in 1942 or even 1943 just doesn't fit with what actually occurred during the war. Therefore, moving the Howlers adventures all the up to early 1942 just bothers my purist sense of history. 

There is very little that ties the Invaders chronology in with the Howlers. A brief one panel cameo. I would ignore it completely. Also, there were some more recent stories starring the Howlers, supposedly set in 1942 (such as Marvel Comics Presents 77/2-79/2). I'd move them to 1943. 

I would also push off the first meeting between Fury and Cap, shown in Sgt. Fury #13, as well as Captain America #383 and a couple of the Domination Factor issues, until early 1943, as well. 

I know this will be met with open hostility by some. I just can't justify to myself an earlier start to the Howler adventures. I'm just a stubborn old comic reader, I suppose! 

Also, you may have these in your list, but I believe these additional temporal references are also in the following issues (some of which seem valid while others do not): 

Issue 32: "May 18, 1943" 
Issue 43: Rommell in North Africa, which would put it no later than early to mid 1943. 
Issue 47: I have two notes on my list (my comics are inaccessible right now) "New Year's Day" and "Tarawa and November, 1943" 
Issues 49-50: "October and November, 1943 
Issue 51: The "Teheran Conference", which took place on November 28, 1943 
Issue 53: Parallels Captain Savaqe and his Leatherneck Raiders #1, set in late November, 1943 
Issue 57: Set in the "summer before D-Day" 
Issue 59: Parallels Captain Savaqe and his Leatherneck Raiders #7, set in 1944. 
Issue 60: Set on "October 19, 1943" !!! 
Between Issues 63 and 64: Parallels Captain Savage #11, in which the Howlers guest star 
Issue 71: Set in May, 1944, "before the Allied invasion" 

Again, I haven't double checked some of these references, but as you can see, much of this is just too confusing. 

Well, that is all for now. I welcome your comments. 

Ron F.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2007 01:05 am    
By Col_Fury

Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
I've been slogging through the Howlers timeline intermittently these past few years and have come to the conclusion that I will never be satisfied with anything that tries to make sense of it. What a gargantuan mess. 
<<<

But it's a fun mess! 


Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
What I cannot accept is the retconning of the formation of the Howlers from late 1942 to early 1942. I really liked how the flashbacks were developed in issues 34, 44, and 62, in which Fury and Dugan had early adventures in Europe and Africa on their own before the Howlers were formed in late 1942. This paralleled what actually transpired during the war, in which the American commando squads did not see action until late 1942 in northern Africa. They had formed and trained during the summer with the British commandos and saw limited action in Africa in 1942. It wasn't until 1943 that the commandos were really off and runnning.  
<<<

You're absoluely right about the real world history, but we'll get to my interpretation of the Howlers in a second. 

For those interested but have no idea what we're talking about, some quick recaps of the issues mentioned above: 

Issue 34 showed Nick & Red as parachutists training British troops, still civilians in May of 1940, and with no desire to enlist. Then later, Dum Dum & Sawyer had adventures in Africa, then Red died at Pearl Harbor with Fury present. So at some time, Fury, Red, and Dum Dum enlisted before December of 41 and Fury was already a Buck Sgt. by then. 

Issue 62 was the basic training of Fury, but it had no mention of when.(I have this from late July to early October of 41) 

Issue 44 was the first mission of the Howlers, and when they earned the honorary title of Commandos from Churchill, and the nick-name Howling Commandos from Reb. Its mentioned as late 42, but I have it in January of 42. 


Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
Any references to the Howlers and other American troops traipsing around Europe in 1942 or even 1943 just doesn't fit with what actually occurred during the war. Therefore, moving the Howlers adventures all the way up to early 1942 just bothers my purist sense of history. 
<<<

Well I hear you. However, the way I see it is, theyre volunteers. There were American pilots that volunteered and served in Europe before we officially sent anyone over in the real world, so why not volunteer troops in addition in the Marvel Universe? Fury was pretty pissed that Red was killed, and he knew Sawyer who was already seeing action. Sawyer was given the task of putting together a First Attack Squad and tapped Dum Dum and Fury, who had already enlisted on their own. The other Howlers, the way I see it, were also volunteers. The First Attack Squad were the First American troops to see action, the way I see it. 

Any troops that they ran into or fought with in the early issues, the way I see it, were Allied troops. Not necessarily Americans. 

As for McGiveney and his Maulers, well, theyre volunteers to, I guess. 


Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
There is very little that ties the Invaders chronology in with the Howlers. A brief one panel cameo. I would ignore it completely. 
<<<

Theres also Zemo in Sgt. Fury 8, which has to occur before his mask is glued to his face. And thanks to Captain America: the Medusa Effect, that was in February 42. 


Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
Also, there were some more recent stories starring the Howlers, supposedly set in 1942 (such as Marvel Comics Presents 77/2-79/2). I'd move them to 1943.  
<<<

Yeah, late July 42. However, the big attack on the Ploesti oil fields was August 1 1943, which is where I have it.(29 July-1 August 43) Call it a typo. Also, Eric Koenig was part of the team in that M/CP story, so it has to be moved later. Theres no way that was in 42. 


Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
I would also push off the first meeting between Fury and Cap, shown in Sgt. Fury #13, as well as Captain America #383 and a couple of the Domination Factor issues, until early 1943, as well.  
<<<

Domination Factor tried to put this in 43. But because of publication order, Zemos chronology, and Baron Struckers chronology, I have it in March 42.(for Strucker, Marvel Universe 1-3 places Capt. Savage 2-4 in February 43(15 months before May 44), and the FlashBacks in Capt. Savage 2-4 places Sgt. Fury 28-29 in the summer of 42(I have Sgt. Fury 28-29 on 6 July-9 July 42)) 


Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
I know this will be met with open hostility by some. I just can't justify to myself an earlier start to the Howler adventures. I'm just a stubborn old comic reader, I suppose!  
<<<

No hostility here. All Im saying is: Volunteers. 


Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
Also, you may have these in your list, but I believe these additional temporal references are also in the following issues (some of which seem valid while others do not): 

Issue 32: "May 18, 1943"  
<<<

I tried, but I couldnt make that work thanks to Sgt. Fury 112, 114-117.(where Fury is out of action for over 2 months! thanks to Strucker(112, 114-117 have to occur before May 43 because of the Nazi presence in Africa)) I have issue 32 on 18 November-19 November 42. 


Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
Issue 43: Rommell in North Africa, which would put it no later than early to mid 1943.  
<<<

That one works just fine, I have it on 13 May, 1943. 


Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
Issue 47: I have two notes on my list (my comics are inaccessible right now) "New Year's Day" and "Tarawa and November, 1943"  
<<<

The line is Them sirens you hear aint blowin cause its New Years Eve! which isnt to say its New Years. The sirens were blowing because of an air raid, and Fury was just making a point. And the Tarawa note is for issue 49, and the actual invasion on Tarawa is in issue 50. 


Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
Issues 49-50: "October and November, 1943  
<<<

Yup. 


Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
Issue 51: The "Teheran Conference", which took place on November 28, 1943  
<<<

Ditto. 


Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
Issue 53: Parallels Captain Savaqe and his Leatherneck Raiders #1, set in late November, 1943  
<<<

Actually, Capt. Savage 1 parallels Sgt. Fury 50, both in Tarawa, late November, 1943.(wait Capt. Savage 1 is in November 43 and Capt. Savage 2-4 is in February 43? Yup, I have these out of publication order. My justification? Issue 1 says its when Savages teams legend was born, and its not even their first mission! Thats in issue 14. I know its not much, blame Roger Sterns Marvel Universe!) Sgt. Fury 53 is set in Bavaria. 


Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
Issue 57: Set in the "summer before D-Day" 
<<<

An early summer A very early summer.  


Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
Issue 59: Parallels Captain Savaqe and his Leatherneck Raiders #7, set in 1944.  
<<<

Yup. 


Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
Issue 60: Set on "October 19, 1943" !!!  
<<<

Yeah With references to Tarawa as happening in the past plus publication order, thats just wrong. 


Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
Between Issues 63 and 64: Parallels Captain Savage #11, in which the Howlers guest star  
<<<

A fun crossover. 


Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
Issue 71: Set in May, 1944, "before the Allied invasion"  
<<<

I havent nailed it down yet but so far, no problems. 


Ron Flick wrote: 
>>>
Again, I haven't double checked some of these references, but as you can see, much of this is just too confusing. 

Well, that is all for now. I welcome your comments. 
<<<

And I welcome yours!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2007 09:18 am    
By Somebody

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
And thanks to Captain America: the Medusa Effect, that was in February 42. 
<<<

Wait a minute - isn't that non-canon? I'm sure I remember it being explained to me as non-canon at some point...

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2007 10:53 am    
By Col_Fury

No, it's canon. It's written by Roy Thomas, one of the guys not able to write non-canon comics.(and it's in the Project already) 

You might be thinking of the Adventures of Captain America miniseries.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2007 08:16 pm    
By Ron Flick

Well, Col. Fury, you offer very compelling reasons for explaining the earlier Howler chronology, which is something I have been wrestling with for some time. I will absorb your comments in more detail and see if I can finally convince myself to accept the idea. 

I'll be curious to see where you place the more recent Howler stories. I remember being dissatisfied with the placement of some of these stories as outlined in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe in the issue that featured the Howlers a year or so ago. 

Thanks! 

Ron

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2007 11:39 pm    
By Col_Fury

I read through that HandBook entry, then made a point to never look at it again until I was finished going through the Sgt. Fury series. When I'm done, I'll look through it again and see how things line up. 

In the meantime, I'm having a blast!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 12

Posted: 13 Mar 2007 05:23 pm    Post subject: Captain America #25: Sharon Carter
By Paul O'Brien
Director

A largely overlooked aspect of CAPTAIN AMERICA #25 is a line of dialogue which quietly redefines Peggy Carter as Sharon's aunt rather than her sister. 

Tom Brevoort's blog confirms this is a deliberate decision; not unreasonably, Marvel now consider it completely unviable for Sharon to have an elder sister who was an adult in World War II. Frankly, I think it's stretching credibility to breaking point to suggest an adult aunt, but there you go. 

I know this sort of thing irks purists immensely, but I don't really see an alternative. (Unless you think it's somehow viable to claim that World War II was very, very recent in the Marvel Universe - but the MU can't be arranged solely for the convenience of chronologists, and it's hard to imagine any other perspective from which that would be a desirable solution.) After all, it would require Sharon's parents to be old enough to have an adult child by the early 1940s, which would mean the kid was born in the 20s and the parents were born circa 1905 at the latest. 

We have a general policy of disregarding retcons on the MCP, and admittedly this doesn't directly affect anyone's chronologies. But in 2007, I can't see how NOT retconning this point is remotely workable any more. Can we seriously resist this sort of retcon?
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Mar 2007 05:44 pm    
By Somebody

I'm not seeing what there is to resist - the only two things this could possibly affect MCP-wise are: 

1) She's a maternal aunt, so doesn't have the surname "Carter" 
2) Flashbacks to Young Peggy interacting with Young Sharon - if there are any, they may have to be deleted if the retcon takes [NB: I have no idea if there are, I'm pretty much unfamiliar with the character] 

More generally, my big problem with this is something else you mention in passing - even if Peggy is her dad's older sister, you're still going to struggle to make the timeline work with Peggy as Sharon's aunt without retconning her to be her great-aunt. [Notwithstanding even the potential need for her to have some sort of "fell through a hole in time" excuse or other agingless excuse for Peggy to be as active as she was in the Englehart & Greunwald runs]. How do you fix it so that there's a connection between Sharon & Peggy in 2013 comics other than outright ignoring it? 2020? The "aunt" thing isn't really a tenable solution for very long in and of itself.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Mar 2007 06:52 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm with Somebody. I don't picture this retcon as having much of an impact on how we run things here at the Project. 

At the same time, you both bring up a point that I've made in the past: This kind of retcon accomplishes nothing toward solving the problem; they're merely delaying it. The proper solution is to just stop referring to her World War II-era stories. 


watching: veronica mars

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2007 03:54 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Well, they kind of HAVE taken that line, by just never using Peggy Carter at all in recent years. It's tricky to use her while completely ignoring her World War II background, since an essential part of her relationship with Cap is the fact that they worked together before he went into suspended animation, and she's aged naturally since then. And it's highly unlikely that they're ever going to detach Captain America from World War II. 

Peggy Carter may simply have become an unworkable character who should never be mentioned at all.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Mar 2007 07:17 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

That's my preferred solution to the whole thing - if a character no longer works from a timeline perspective, don't use 'em anymore. Fine, use Sharon Carter all you like, just don't reference Peggy. The same goes for the villains with ties to the USSR. If they work without referencing that (such as guys like the Abomination or the Chameleon) then don't reference it at all when they appear. If it's someone like the Crimson Dynamo, either stop using him, or create a new one more in keeping with current world politics - perhaps a Chinese version? I kind of like what they've done recently with the Red Ghost, by positioning him as a crackpot trying to revive the USSR with apes in a pivotal role. 

I prefer the 'don't mention it' method of timeline patching to the 'retcon' method. But I'm happy to accept minor retcons like the recent Peggy Carter one.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Mar 2007 10:36 am  
By Enda80

This reminds me, I have a question about Jimmy Woo ; did he fight the Yellow Claw in the absolute 1950's or ("X-20 years ago")?

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Mar 2007 11:55 am    
By Somebody

Non-sliding 1950s, per Agents of Atlas.

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Posted: 18 Mar 2007 10:54 pm    Post subject: GAM3 10, M/CP 77-79, & misc
By Col_Fury

Currently, M/CP 77-79 is placed before SGTF 43 for all involved. 

SGTF 43 shows Rommel receiving orders to retreat from Africa, which would place this in May 1943.(no date given in the comic, but there you go) 

M/CP 77-79 takes place leading up to and during the attack on the Ploesti oil fields which was 1 August 1943. The comic says late July 1942, which has to be a typo. Also, both Dino Manelli and Eric Koenig are with the Howlers at this point, which means that this story cant take place until after SGTF 42 at the earliest. 

I would like to think that since these comics take place in the past set against real world events, that any real world references(that are workable, just like any other reference) can be taken as placement clues. So, since May comes before August, Ill suggest moving M/CP 77-79 to sometime after SGTF 43. 

Currently, GAM3 10 is placed much too late in the Howlers chronologies, but it is placed correctly in Struckers.(after Captain Savage 2-4) In GAM3 10, Strucker is wearing a Hydra-esque uniform, but is said to have Hitlers ear. This would be after his Hydra was crippled in Captain Savage 4, but before SGTF 114 where hes been given a research assignment before being put back into active duty. 

Dino Manelli is an active member of the Howlers in this story, which would place it either before SGTF 32,(where hes wounded) or after SGTF 42.(where he returns) Since GAM3 10 is noted as being in 1943, and it has to follow Captain Savage 4(which is in February 1943 thanks to Marvel Universe 1-3), I have this after SGTF 42. 

CA: SL2 12-FB involves the Ninth Panzer division surrendering as a plot point, placing this in early April 1945. 

CA3 20/2-21/2 involve American troops in snowy Europe, placing it in late 1944... maybe early 1945. I have it in late 1944.(before that Battle of the Bulge) I'm pretty much leaving this where it is, but with other things moving around it, I felt I should mention it somehow. 

Some suggestions: 

FURY, SGT. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
 
SGTF 42 
**GAM3 10 (1943) 
SGTF 43 
... 
SGTF 48 
**M/CP 77/3 
**M/CP 78/2 
**M/CP 79/2 
SGTF 49 
 
SGTF@ 4 (31-44)-FB (12/44) 
**CA: SL2 12-FB 
SGTF@ 1 
... 

DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM" 
... 
SGTF 42 
**GAM3 10 (1943) 
SGTF 43 
... 
SGTF 48 
**M/CP 77/3 
**M/CP 78/2 
**M/CP 79/2 
SGTF 49 
 
SGTF@ 4 (31-44)-FB (12/44) 
**CA: SL2 12-FB 
SGTF@ 1 
... 

RALSTON, ROBERT "REB" 
 
SGTF 42 
**GAM3 10 (1943) 
SGTF 43 
... 
SGTF 48 
**M/CP 77/3 
**M/CP 78/2 
**M/CP 79/2 
SGTF 49 
 


MANELLI, DINO 
 
SGTF 42 
**GAM3 10 (1943) 
SGTF 43 
... 
SGTF 48 
**M/CP 77/3 
**M/CP 78/2 
**M/CP 79/2 
SGTF 49 
 


JONES, GABRIEL "GABE" 
 
SGTF 42 
**GAM3 10 (1943) 
SGTF 43 
... 
SGTF 48 
**M/CP 77/3 
**M/CP 78/2 
**M/CP 79/2 
SGTF 49 
 


COHEN, "IZZY" 
 
SGTF 42 
**GAM3 10 (1943) 
SGTF 43 
... 
SGTF 48 
**M/CP 77/3 
**M/CP 78/2 
**M/CP 79/2 
SGTF 49 
 


PINKERTON, PERCIVAL "PINKY" 
 
SGTF 42 
**GAM3 10 (1943) 
SGTF 43 
... 
SGTF 48 
**M/CP 77/3 
**M/CP 78/2 
**M/CP 79/2 
SGTF 49 
 


SAWYER, CAPTAIN SAMUEL 
 
SGTF 42 
*GAM3 10-BTS (1943) 
SGTF 43 
... 
SGTF 48 
**M/CP 77/3 
 
(The Howlers are under orders from Sawyer to be where they are in this story, so he should get a BTS I would think) 

KOENIG, ERIC 
 
SGTF 48 
**M/CP 77/3 
**M/CP 78/2 
**M/CP 79/2 
SGTF 49 
 

As a side note, I think it's great that in the Iron Man: Hypervelocity mini there's a Helicarrier named the 'Samuel Sawyer.' It brought a smile to my face.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Posted: 15 Mar 2007 01:02 pm    Post subject: the Battle of the Bulge!
By Col_Fury

There's a handful of comics I've found set during the Battle of the Bulge, including CA3 32-FB, SGTF@ 4-FB, and WS: WK 1-FB. CA3 32-FB is already in the project, and I've already suggested placements for WS: WK 1-FB 

16 December, Saturday 1944 
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos King-Size Special #4-FB pg6-pg24pn3 
After getting into a fight, Sgt. Furys Howling Commandos and Sgt. McGiveney are put into the guardhouse. Theyre quickly escorted out at Capt. Sawyers request, because Axis forces have caught the Allies by surprise in the Ardennes, and Sawyer is sending the Howlers in to help in St. Vith. They parachute into Belgium and land on a Nazi patrol. After defeating them, they set about sabotaging a division of Panzer tanks. Later, the Howlers run into a squad of Nazi troops posing as Americans, but theyre discovered and defeated. They eventually make it to St. Vith where Gen. Parkway explains the situation. 

17 December, Sunday 1944 
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos King-Size Special #4-FB pg24pn4-pg30 
The Howlers are out on patrol when they come across American and German troops fighting. They attempt to help, but theyre quickly defeated and surrender. With the Americans at their mercy, the Nazis open fire and massacre the Americans. After the Nazis leave, the Howlers stop playing opossum and vow revenge. 

18 December, Monday 1944 
19 December, Tuesday 1944 
20 December, Wednesday 1944 
Captain America v3 #32-FB pg9-pg13 
The 106th Infantry Division is attacked by Nazi soldiers during the Battle of the Bulge. 

Captain America v3 #32-FB pg14-pg16, pg6, pg17-pg18 
Captain America & Bucky and Sgt. Furys Howling Commandoes happen by and overtake the Nazi soldiers. Stan Klein & and a handful of others are the only survivors of the 106th. 

21 December, Thursday 1944 
22 December, Friday 1944 
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos King-Size Special #4-FB pg31-pg35 
The Howlers return to St. Vith as the German forces make their final assault. After hours of fighting, the Allied forces are ordered to pull back to Bastogne. 

23 December, Saturday 1944 
24 December, Sunday 1944 
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos King-Size Special #4-FB pg36-pg44 
During a slow patch, some of the American troops have set up a Christmas tree and some local children come out of hiding and celebrate with the GIs. German forces attack, including the division that massacred the American soldiers days earlier. During the battle, the commanding Nazi officer is killed by his own grenade. Shortly afterwards, the Howlers receive word that the German forces are beginning to pull out of the Ardennes, the battle is all but won. 

Winter Soldier: Winter Kills #1-FB pg1-pg3 
Bucky & Toro prepare to go to a Christmas Eve USO dance, Namor is on his way to join the Human Torch & Falworths at a dinner, and Captain America declines to go to both the dance and dinner because he has new codes to memorize. 

Winter Soldier: Winter Kills #1-FB pg32-pg35 
Bucky makes Toro dance with a red head he had his eyes on. Steve shows up, and Bucky tells him he has a good feeling about Toros chances for the evening. 

That's all I've been able to find so far, but it's possible some issues of Sgt. Fury may end up happening around this period. 

Some placement suggestions for SGTF@ 4-FB: 

FURY, SGT. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
... 
WX2 14-FB 
*SGTF@ 4 (6-30)-FB (12/44) 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF@ 4 (31-44)-FB (12/44) 
... 

DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM" 
... 
*SGTF@ 4 (6-30)-FB (12/44) 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF@ 4 (31-44)-FB (12/44) 
... 

RALSTON, ROBERT "REB" 
... 
*SGTF@ 4 (6-30)-FB (12/44) 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF@ 4 (31-44)-FB (12/44) 
... 

MANELLI, DINO 
... 
SGTF@ 2 (06/06/44) 
... 
*SGTF@ 4-FB (12/44) 
... 

JONES, GABRIEL "GABE" 
... 
*SGTF@ 4 (6-30)-FB (12/44) 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF@ 4 (31-44)-FB (12/44) 
... 

COHEN, "IZZY" 
... 
SGTF@ 2 (06/06/44) 
... 
*SGTF@ 4-FB (12/44) 
... 

PINKERTON, PERCIVAL "PINKY" 
... 
*SGTF@ 4 (6-30)-FB (12/44) 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF@ 4 (31-44)-FB (12/44) 
... 

KOENIG, ERIC 
... 
CS 11 
... 
*SGTF@ 4-FB (12/44) 
... 

SAWYER, CAPTAIN SAMUEL 
... 
SGTF@ 2 (06/06/44) 
... 
*SGTF@ 4-FB (12/44) 
... 

MCGIVENEY, SGT. BULL 
SGTF 48 
*SGTF@ 4-FB (12/44 
... 

If anyone knows of other comics set during this time, I'd like to hear about it. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Mar 2007 01:35 pm
By Somebody

Col_Fury wrote: 
If anyone knows of other comics set during this time, I'd like to hear about it.  

http://www.comicboards.com/camb/view.php?rpl=061230022412 http://www.comicboards.com/camb/view.php?rpl=061230172057

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Mar 2007 11:11 pm    
By Col_Fury

I'm all excited. Maybe Cap will be at Antwerp... my grandfather fought at Antwerp. That would be cool.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Mar 2007 02:56 am    
By JLH

Aww, I was hoping this involved Kingpin fighting the Slug with Big Bertha taking on the winner!

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Posted: 15 Mar 2007 01:08 pm    Post subject: D-Day!
By Col_Fury

Only a handful of comics I've found are set during D-Day. Here you go: 

5 June, Monday 1944 
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos King-Size Special #2 pg1-pg15 
The Howling Commandos steal into France and meet resistance leader Francois. They set about distracting the local military leaders and destroy a Nazi airfield but end up getting captured. After interrogation goes nowhere, Col. Von Papen contacts Hitler, which interrupts a date with Eva Braun. He orders him to execute the Howlers, ignoring the warning signs of an invasion. As theyre about to be executed theyre freed by the French resistance and they destroy the S. S. headquarters on their way out. Meanwhile Gen. Eisenhower gives the word; Operation Overlord is set for the morning. 

6 June, Tuesday 1944 
Captain America #109-FB pg1-pg6pn2 
Captain America & Bucky destroy Axis coastal guns to set the stage for the Allied Invasion. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos King-Size Special #2 pg16-pg24 
The Howling Commandos assist in the taking of Omaha Beach. After hours of fighting and thousands of casualties, the Allies finally have a small grip in occupied Europe. 

Avengers West Coast #65/2-FB pg1 
The Human Torch and Toro assist in the D-Day Invasion of Normandy. 

Wolverine vol2 #34-FB pg8pn3-pg8pn4 
Cpl. Logan parachutes into Normandy with the 6th British airborne division. 

Wolverine vol2 #34-FB pg13pn3-pg14pn6 
Members of the 6th British airborne division are caught in some trees, and Cpl. Logan cuts himself free. He charges oncoming Nazis forces armed only with a knife. 

Wolverine vol2 #34-FB pg21 
Cpl. Logan slaughters Nazis with his knife. 

Wolverine vol2 #78-FB pg13pn2 
Cpl. Logan approaches the last Nazi, Bloodscream. 

No placement suggestions here. But if anyone knows about comics set during D-Day that aren't listed above, I'd like to hear about it. 
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 15 Mar 2007 01:58 pm    
By Enda80

Did you check with Flick?

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Mar 2007 07:40 am 
By Ron Flick

Ron Flick here! Better late than never!! 

My notes say that Cap and Bucky are shown during D-Day in Captain America Annual 2000 in a flashback. I will have to dig that issue out and see if my notes are correct. Otherwise I don't have any other references to D-Day.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Mar 2007 06:56 pm    
By Ron Flick

Well, I checked Cap Annual 2000 and there are no scenes of Cap during D-Day. What I had noted was a scene in which a young soldier mentions to Cap that Cap had saved his grandfather at Normandy. So, it was merely a modern-day reference to the fact that Cap was at Normandy, which I wanted to save as verification of his presence during the D-Day assault. 

Ron

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Mar 2007 10:40 pm    
By Col_Fury

Thanks for checking, buddy!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Posted: 20 Mar 2007 11:09 am    Post subject: Dan Slott's Human Torch/Spidey miniseries
By Truebeliever

I was reading this excellent miniseries recently and I was wondering if anyone has researched precisely where these issues fit into Spidey and the Torch's personal chronologies? 
I appreciate any help

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Mar 2007 02:55 pm    
By SKleefeld
Director

Hmmm... I could swear we had a discussion on this back when the series came out, but I can't seem to find it now.  

According to my notes, though, I've got Torch's chronology (and as many notes about Spidey as I have) running like this: 

... Amazing Spider-Man, vol 1 #21 
Amazing Spider-Man, vol 1 #8, 2nd Story 
Strange Tales, vol 1 #129 
Avengers, vol 1 #13 
Fantastic Four, vol 1 #35 
Spider-Man/Human Torch #1 
Strange Tales, vol 1 #130 ... 

... Fantastic Four, vol 1 #94 
Spider-Man/Human Torch #2 
Avengers, vol 1 #82 
Fantastic Four, vol 1 #95 ... 

... Giant-Size Spider-Man #1 
Marvel Team-Up #23 
Giant-Size Fantastic Four #2 
Spider-Man/Human Torch #3 
Marvel Team-Up #26 ... 

... Fantastic Four, vol 1 #270 
Fantastic Four, vol 1 #358, Flashback 
Amazing Spider-Man, vol 1 #258, pp. 1-14 
Spider-Man/Human Torch #4 
Amazing Spider-Man, vol 1 #258, pp. 15-23 
Avengers, vol 1 #249 ... 

... X-Men/Fantastic Four #5 
She-Hulk #12 
Spider-Man/Human Torch #5 
New Avengers #8 
Captain Universe/Invisible Woman #1 ...

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Posted: 06 Nov 2006 02:01 am    Post subject: Captain America's Bicentennial Battles & misc
By Col_Fury

Captain America's Bicentennial Battles pg4-pg9 
A time traveling Captain America saves Bucky from torture by Hitler and the Red Skull, who are interrogating him for the whereabouts of Captain America. 

-It's spring time in Germany, possibly summer. Since Bucky's being interrogated about Cap's whereabouts, I'll suggest a BTS for the Cap of the time. 

Clan Destine #8-FB pg9pn2-pg14pn3 
At the Bunbrook bomber station, a Nazi robot wreaks havoc until the Invaders arrive. The robot quickly subdues them, as it was outfitted specifically against their abilities. Walter of the Clan Destine, working as an intelligence agent for the Allies, destroys the robot, saving the Invaders. 

-Cap, Torch, & Namor are the appearing Invaders. 

-"1944, towards the end of WWII..." It's spring or summer in England, I've opted for spring. 

-I couldn't find ClanDestine in the key, so I'll suggest the abbreviation CLAND. If it's already in there and I just can't find it, well, you'll know what 'CLAND' means I guess. 

Captain America #237-FB pg10pn6-pg12pn2 
Anna Kapplebaum & her family are arrested for being Jewish. She's put into the Diebenwald concentration camp & meets Dr. Menhaus, her family is killed. 

-"9 November, 1938" 

Captain America #237-FB pg12pn3-pg15 
Captain America and Allied troops liberate the Diebenwald concentration camp. 

-"spring 1945" 

Captain America #245-FB pg5pn5-pg7pn3 
At the Diebenwald concentration camp, Anna Kepplebaum plays in a band while prisoners are killed. Dr. Menhaus requests her 'attention,' but she fights back so he destroys her violin. 

-There's no Captain America FB appearance here, but Steve's neighbors do throw him a birthday party in the present day. 

Captain America #250-FB pg14pn2-pg14pn5 
Steve's at school while the teacher Mrs. Edna Crosley talks about the importance of civic duty. 

-the depression is still going strong, which would make sense given when Steve went to school. 

Captain America #270-FB pg4pn5 
Steve & Arnie are chased by bullies. 
Captain America #270-FB pg5pn1 
Arnie fights bullies off of Steve. 
Captain America #270-FB pg5pn2 
Steve at Arnie's house. 
Captain America #270-FB pg5pn3 
Steve & Arnie at the movies, sometime after Steve's mother has died. 
Captain America #270-FB pg5pn4 
Steve & Arnie say goodbye. Arnie has joined the Navy, Steve has already gone through Project: Rebirth. 

Captain America #282 shows Steve dreaming/hallucinating about his father... I'm not sure this should count as a FlashBack. 

Some placement suggestions! 

BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN BUCKY BARNES 
... 
CA:ME (01/07/43) 
*CABT 
DF 2.4-FB 
... 

HITLER, ADOLF 
... 
TRUTH 6-FB 
*CABT 
SVTU 17-FB pg14pn1-pg14pn2 
... 

RED SKULL II/JOHANN SCHMIDT 
... 
CA5 5-FB (11/42) 
*CABT 
SGTF 25 
... 

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
... 
N@ 2/2 (1943) 
*CLAND 8-FB (1944) 
BP4 21-FB 
... 

HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND 
... 
DF 3.6 
*CLAND 8-FB (1944) 
BP4 21-FB 
... 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
M/HOL 1994/2-FB (~6 YRS OLD) 
M/SH3 3-FB pg3 (~8 YRS OLD) 
CA 255-FB pg2pn5-pg3pn1 
*CA 270-FB pg4pn5-pg5pn2 
*CA 250-FB 
CA: SL2 7/2-FB pg2-pg3 (33-34) 
CA 255-FB pg3pn2-pg3pn3 
*CA 270-FB pg5pn3 
CA: SL2 7/2-FB pg4 (1938) 
... 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 pg7pn3 
CA 255-FB pg8pn1 
*CA 270-FB pg5pn4 
CA 255-FB pg8pn4 
CA: SL2 6/3-BTS 
... 
CA:ME (01/07/43) 
*CABT-BTS 
CA 262-FB (1943) 
... 
CA 219-FB(1944) 
*CLAND 8-FB (1944) 
BP4 21-FB 
... 
CA:SL2 12-FB pg23-pg29 
*CA 237-FB (spring/45) 
CA:SL2 7/2 pg9-pg10 (04/12/45) 
... 

As it turns out, I do own Thor Corps 2. Look for it here soon!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Nov 2006 01:52 am    
By Col_Fury

Thor Corps #2 pg1-pg3, pg6 
The time traveling Thor Corps arrives in the Brooklyn Navy Yard, and encounters the Invaders who think theyre Nazis. Beta Ray Bill realizes the fight only delays their mission, so he creates a portal through which they escape. 

-I couldn't find Thor Corps in the Key, so I'll suggest TC for it's abbreviation. 

-the appearing Invaders are Cap, Bucky, Human Torch, Toro, & Namor. 

-the narration states that this is in 1942. It doesn't get more specific than that, though. 

-this isn't a FlashBack, it's time travel, so I don't think a 'FB' notation is needed. 

-with this grouping of Invaders, it seems to be at least after the second Invaders volume.(Bucky & Toro were with their other group at the time) Also, they're guarding a US Navy Yard. 

Some placement suggestions: 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
... 
MARVELS 1 
*TC 2 (1942) 
CA '98-FB 
... 

BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN BUCKY BARNES 
... 
MARVELS 1 
*TC 2 (1942) 
CA '98-FB 
... 

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
... 
MARVELS 1 pg44-pg45 
*TC 2 (1942) 
CA:SL2 2-FB 
... 

HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND 
... 
MARVELS 1 pg44-pg45 
*TC 2 (1942) 
CA:SL2 2-FB 
... 

TORO/TOM RAYMOND 
... 
MARVELS 1 
*TC 2 (1942) 
CA5 5-FB (11/42) 
...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2007 04:41 am    
By Enda80

The Torch actually refers to Invaders I#32-33 where Thor tried to whack Coldsteel in Thor Corps. 

Of course, Thor supposedly erased the Invaders memories of that, but well, the Torch is an android. He also recalled it in the Saga of the Human Torch series, which was presented as a series of memoirs.

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Posted: 26 Dec 2006 05:25 pm    Post subject: Marvels
By Enda80

"I'm still reserving Marvels (Kurt Busiek's series) for myself, but I'd appreciate any help you can provide with other books remaining in the Gap. " 

Here is a conundrum for MVLS. The Jameson in issue#1 was actually Old Man Jameson per the 2004 or 2005 Spidey handbook. That explains why JJJ we see today is not 90. However, for Phil Sheldon to have been active in the 1940's presents problems, especially if one considers that his children were younger than John Jameson.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Dec 2006 05:56 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I know the Handbook tries to retcon that, but what's actually in the book appears to disagree with that interpretation. In a scene that takes place just prior to Reed and Sue's wedding in MARVELS 2, Jonah offers a book deal to Sheldon, because they "go way back." 

Admittedly, that's an interpretation on my part, and I was willing to ignore JJJ's appearance in MARVELS 1, due to the Handbook, but you bring up an interesting question, about Sheldon. If it's been, say, twelve to fifteen years since FF 1, it stands to reason that FF@ 3 occurs very close to 1995. If Phil Sheldon has a pre-school-age daughter, why can't that be JJJ in MARVELS 1? 

The passage of time doesn't bother me, in the slightest, if all I'm concerned about is what order to read the books. If we're going to get hung up on the passage of time, we're going to constantly run into problems like this. Just my opinion. 


watching: ufo files

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2007 04:44 am  
By Enda80

Quickie note, Phil Sheldon meets with someone named Casey towards the end of Marvels#1. This may represent an appearance of Flashgun Jack Casey. 

The boy hawking newspapers in the red sweater with gold trim sure resembles Billy Batson. Was he named?

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2007 11:06 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Flashgun Jack Casey 
<<<

Who? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2007 10:37 pm    
By Col_Fury

He's brought this up before. Apparently, he really likes that Flashgun guy.(the Casey Phil met in Marvels #1 was a character from the Human Torch 5B. I don't see anything to connect him to Flashgun except for the fact they're both named Casey) 

Also, he's still ignoring the solution to the problem he brought up in this very subject.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2007 11:00 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Good old Enda. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Posted: 22 Mar 2007 05:34 pm    Post subject: Claremont and Cockrum
By EUREKA28

Hi , 
I appreciate very much your website. 
It helps me to buy comics. 

I read that the appearences, for 

-Claremont, are : 
Uncanny X-Men #98,105,123,annual @7, 
Iron Fist #15 

-Cockrum, are : 
uncanny x-men # 98, 120 ;giant size 1 
Iron fist 15 

I have the books but I don't see them inside. 
Can you help me and tell me where they are ? 

Why isn't ''the uncanny x-men at the state fair of Texas'' in the Marvel Chronology Project ? 

Thank you.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Mar 2007 05:54 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Why isn't ''the uncanny x-men at the state fair of Texas'' in the Marvel Chronology Project ? 
<<<

If you don't see a book listed it's either 'in the gap' which is close to being closed, not analyzed by anyone yet, or non-canon. 

As to your other question, in 105, they are the characters referred to as "Chris" and "Dave." (Their first names.) 

The other ones, you're on you're own... <grin>

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2007 12:11 am    
By JLH

EUREKA28 wrote: 
>>>
Why isn't ''the uncanny x-men at the state fair of Texas'' in the Marvel Chronology Project ? 
<<<

It was a giveaway book, which is generally an automatic "non-canon" status. Not always, of course (for instance, Wizard inserts and other sendaway books, or inserts within comics), but that's the general rule. 

Maybe someone should analyze all the giveaway and promotional comics ever made for Marvel. Start with those "Aurora Comic Scene" tales! 

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Posted: 21 Mar 2007 06:11 am    Post subject: Name the Villains
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'm finally getting around to dealing with character identification in several comics that came out in the past month or two. 

First up, we have Punisher War Journal, vol. 2 #4. 

I recognize Absorbing Man, Answer, Armadillo, Cat Burglar, Chameleon, a Doombot, Dragon Man, Eel II, Gibbon, Princess Python, Prowler, Professor Power, Puma, Rhino, Ringer II, Rocket Racer (in civilian duds), Shocker, Stilt-Man, and Will O' the Wisp. 

Armada is noted as being the guy who arranged for the Doombot to be there, but I'm not sure what he looks like. 

So who is this the armored guy who says "Jeezus, are these metric?" on page 5, panel 3? 

Who is the guy with the hood and visor? I know I should know this character, but I'm drawing a blank. 

Who is the guy with the cape talking to Rhino on page 5, panel 1? I know I've seen him before too. 

Too...many...B-characters... Well, maybe there are fewer now.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2007 06:41 am    
By Mikhail

Haven't read it, but...hood and visor sounds like Masked Marauder.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2007 12:41 pm    
By JD

Yes, definitely the Masked Marauder. 
(Didn't I just see him die while re-reading one of my Essential Daredevils ? Whatever...)

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2007 12:49 pm    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Too...many...B-characters... Well, maybe there are fewer now. 
<<<

Odds on any of these guys staying dead? 

Hell, you've got Armadillo & Shocker due to show in Avengers: The Initiative and Dragon Man coming up in Irredeemable Ant-Man #9 already. 

And it's been pointed out to me that there are details (not to an MCP standard of proof, probably, but enough for me) that strongly suggest that Rhino appears in Cable/Deadpool #37 after P:WJ #4. 

Meanwhile, Chameleon's been on a revolving door o'death since Kraven II shot him in DeMatteis' SpecSM run (and looked deader at least twice). 

By the end of it, probably only the Doombot'll have actually died.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2007 01:21 pm    
By rhod

You missed the Grizzly. (At least that's who I think it was -5p2)
_________________
"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2007 05:40 pm    
By Mikhail

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
By the end of it, probably only the Doombot'll have actually died. 
<<<

Unless its the Doombot in Heroes for Hire right now.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Mar 2007 06:14 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Mikhail wrote: 
>>>
Haven't read it, but...hood and visor sounds like Masked Marauder. 
<<<

That's him! Thanks, Mikhail, and JD too. 


rhod wrote: 
>>>
You missed the Grizzly. (At least that's who I think it was -5p2) 
<<<

You're absolutely right. Thanks, rhod. 


Any takers on that caped guy talking to Rhino on 5p1? 

I really dislike Marvel's recent policy of throwing random B-villains into stories without any regard for continuity. Dead? No problem, and we'll make 'em dead again. New guy assuming an existing ID? Who knows? And Marvel doesn't seem to care. 


_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Mar 2007 10:45 am    
By jephyork
Director

They need some way of keeping all this stuff straight. Perhaps some sort of official handbook... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Mar 2007 11:47 pm    
By jannepie

Mike Deodato posted a preview for that issue on his forum at Comixfan. 

http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showpost.php?p=1281065&postcount=836 

I gave a list of the ones I thought I recognized and asked about the others... (I had confused the Gibbon with a Super-Ape there) 
http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showpost.php?p=1290307&postcount=840 

... and Mr. Deodato answered. 
http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/showpost.php?p=1291195&postcount=841

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Mar 2007 12:12 am    
By LordZorn

Jannepie: 

You say you recognised the HULK in PWJ. How can this be so, when current continuity has the Hulk off-Earth on Sakaar??? Is it a clone, a robot, or the other Hulk(Xemnu)???

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Mar 2007 02:08 pm    
By jannepie

Hulk's in the first preview page that Deodato posted. I can't be sure (I don't have the actual issue), but the panel where Princess Python is fighting the Hulk (who definitely looks like our basic Hulk with purple pants) might be a flashback. At least I get the impression that she is telling the Gibbon about her adventure against the Hulk, but I could be wrong. Could someone with the actual full issue verify this? 

When I first saw these preview pages, I actually thought that they were all flashback. I presume that this isn't the case after all?

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Mar 2007 07:52 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

The Hulk appearance in PWJ2 5 is indeed a flashback, probably to the Hulk battle against the Circus of Crime in H2 217. I'm not sure if any new info is presented in the FB panel. 

Another flashback involving Princess Python in PWJ2 5 is a representation of the cover to A 60. 

PWJ2 5 also contains several scattered FB panels showing a battle between Stilt-Man and Spidey and DD, perhaps from DD 27. I'd have to check to see if the flashbacks contain new info. 

Additionally, there's a flashback panel showing Spidey versus the Cat Burglar, probably from ASM 30. Again, I'd need to check to see if there's new info here.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2007 09:27 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, I think I've figured out placement for a few of the flashbacks in PWJ2 4 that show original scenes. 

The flashback on page 9, panels 3-4 -- 
Shows Stilt-Man blasting the side of a building, knocking window washer Hobie Brown off scaffolding. He's caught by Daredevil. I think this is a new early appearance for Prowler! 
Between pages 14 and 16 of DD 26. (Page 15 of DD 26 is all flashback.) 

The flashback on page 10, panel 1 -- 
Shows Masked Marauder standing over Daredevil on the side of an airborne helicopter while Spidey fights Stilt-Man. 
Between pages 15 and 16 of DD 27. 

The flashback on page 10, panel 3 -- 
Shows Spidey approaching Cat Burglar on a wire. 
Between pages 15 and 16 of ASM 30. 

The flashback on page 4, panel 5 -- 
I think this is a scene that isn't tied to any published story. I've put Spidey here between ASM 62 and ASM@ 5, Daredevil between DD 47-FB and DD 43, and Stilt-Man between DD@ 1 and DD 48.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Posted: 24 Mar 2007 08:30 pm    Post subject: Civil War Battle Damage Report
By Enda80

Photos are generally excluded as fbs, but this special has large photos with extensive captions. Basically it has a bunch of characters getting together to discuss the registration. Some of the people who assemble for conferences on it have not been seen in years, some are actually from Marvel UK. We have Afrikaa, Zanda, Man-Ape, Moses Magnum, N'Dingi, Otomo, various Big Hero Six characters, Lance Hunter, Joseph Hauer, Raptor, and Le Pergrine. 

On the lighter side of things, this issue further confirms that the Japan of Earth-616 encountered a period of monster attacks. This was intimated in X-Men I#181, Fantastic Four/Iron Man Big in Japan, the Godzilla series, the Avengers Breakout Handbook, and probably a few other places.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2007 09:19 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'd count those "photos" as original, canonical flashbacks and would count them in the chronologies of the characters depicted.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2007 09:21 pm    
By Dhall

Enda80, 
I haven't picked this up yet, is anyone else from Marvel UK besides those you mentioned? 

Thanks! 

DaveH

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2007 09:57 pm    
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
I'd count those "photos" as original, canonical flashbacks and would count them in the chronologies of the characters depicted. 
<<<

What about the photos of young Tony Stark from "Iron Man: The Legend"?

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Mar 2007 08:00 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

JLH wrote: 
>>>
What about the photos of young Tony Stark from "Iron Man: The Legend"? 
<<<

I'd count 'em. 

DHall wrote: 
>>>
I haven't picked this up yet, is anyone else from Marvel UK besides those you mentioned? 
<<<

The characters depicted in the photo taken in London are Valentina de Fontaine, Alistaire Stuart, Lance Hunter, Joseph Hauer, Pete Wisdom, Captain Britain, and Union Jack III.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Mar 2007 09:39 am    
By wolframbane

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
On the lighter side of things, this issue further confirms that the Japan of Earth-616 encountered a period of monster attacks. This was intimated in X-Men I#181, Fantastic Four/Iron Man Big in Japan, the Godzilla series, the Avengers Breakout Handbook, and probably a few other places. 
<<<

Godzilla #1-2 [fb] intimated the original Godzilla movie happened in 1956. Dr. Yuriko Takaguchi was present during this event. 

OHOTMU: Wolverine 2004 establishes Logan was present during at least one of these periods of monster activity, likely a reference to UX 181. 

OHOTMU A-Z 12 indicates some of the monsters may have been rogue creations of Arnim Zola. As yet another source (I cannot recall at the moment) says some may have been Deviant creations.

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Posted: 29 Jan 2006 09:04 am    Post subject: Truth and Transformers
By zeus

As you've probably already guessed, I'm going through my collection alphabetically. 

I have a few questions. 

If Transformers isn't in continuity, what about Circuit Breaker appearing in Secret Wars II? (I don't remember the issue number, but could look it up if it helps...) Also, in the "not in continuity" list under the FAQ, it mentions that the first few issues of Transformers seems to be in continuity. Why is that? 

On a completely unrelated note, what about "Truth"? Does the timeline work out? If the Captain America comic book came out a year before the experiments on a black CA, and the experiments predate CA's origin, how does this all work?

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jan 2006 11:26 am    
By Ross

zeus wrote: 
>>>
Also, in the "not in continuity" list under the FAQ, it mentions that the first few issues of Transformers seems to be in continuity. Why is that? 
<<<

Because Spider-Man is in Transformers #3.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jan 2006 01:05 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Marvel started off treating TRANSFORMERS as canon, but stated explicitly in a later letter column that it wasn't after all.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jan 2006 03:27 pm    
By SeanCurtin

zeus wrote: 
>>>
On a completely unrelated note, what about "Truth"? Does the timeline work out? If the Captain America comic book came out a year before the experiments on a black CA, and the experiments predate CA's origin, how does this all work? 
<<<

If memory serves, the black super-soldiers aren't seen reading the comic book until their first mission, so there has to be room between their origin and that mission for the first several issues of Captain America Comics to occur and for the MU version of the Cap comic to be published. Cap is mentioned as being on a mission in Japan later in the series, and AFAIK his first mission in Japan was in Captain America Comics #5, so all of his appearances up to that point would have to fit into the gap between issues of Truth. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jan 2006 04:33 pm    
By bouncelot

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
Marvel started off treating TRANSFORMERS as canon, but stated explicitly in a later letter column that it wasn't after all. 
<<<

Although that statement never appeared in the UK comic (probably because it was Marvel UK's most popular comic). 

The Marvel Transformers comics clearly seem to happen in a part of the Marvel Multiverse which is very similar to the main Marvel Universe until around about the point at which Transformers was launched. 

Incidentally, I understand that on this site, in cases of divergent universes, flashbacks that happen before the divergence point are treated as canon. Does this mean that the flashbacks to the Primus/Unicron battle at the beginning of the universe (and Unicron's destruction of the previous universe) in Transformers are MCP canon? 

As another aside, I'm working on a chronology project just for the UK and US Transformers titles on a transformers site I'm hoping to launch when I get enough spare time away from my Doctor Who continuity reference site. I'm still trying to work out where Nick Fury and Dum-Dum Duggan's cameos in the US TF#3 would have been in their timelines as, though I'm not going to map their Marvel timelines, I'd like to note where the story would fit for them if it were canon (the only real clue is that it's just after ASM#257 for Spider-Man).

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Jan 2006 05:53 pm    
By wolframbane

There were several instances where Transformers and GI Joe connected with one another, including GI Joe and the Transformers #1-4 (and related references within the Transformers and GI Joe titles themselves), GI Joe # 138-142 (Cobra rebuilds Megatron, who later battles several Autobots in Millville and steals the Ark), Transformers: Generation 2 #2 (Hot Spot fights Cobra and Ark destroyed) and Transformers: Generation 2 #4 (Optimus Prime meets with Hawk and GI Joe). This would seem to indicate that Transformers and GI Joe co-exist within the same universe. The current GI Joe comic by Devil's Due seems to be a continuation of the original Marvel Comics continuity, while the current Transformers comics do not. 

As for how and if Transformers and GI Joe fit into the Marvel Universe. There are several instances of crossovers with Transformers in th MU, not so many with GI Joe. Initially when Transformers was published, it was intended to be part of Marvel continuity, but it was also intended to be a four issue mini-series as well. As time and circumstances wore on, ties to Marvel continuity fell by the wayside, while connections to GI Joe continuity strengthened. 

Appearances of established Marvel characters within Transfomers/GI Joe continuity are likely the result of a) dimensional travel, b) a brief 'merging' of the Earths such as when Access combines the DC and Marvel universes, or c) counterparts of Marvel characters that are native to the TF universe. It would seem probable that superheroes do exist in the TF universe, but perhaps to a far lesser degree than the MU. 

Here is a list of all the crossovers of the TF universe and MU I am aware of: 

Transformers #3. Spider-Man teams up with Gears and is a major part of the story. Dazzler, Reed Richards, Joe Robertson and the Daily Bugle also appear. Nick Fury of SHIELD tells Dum Dum Dugan that unless the reports involve a giant lizard, he is not interested, implying Godzilla (from the Godzilla 1970s series where he often fought SHIELD). A footnote states that Spider-Man wears his black symbiote costume because this story took place before Amazing Spider-Man#258. 

Transformers #4. The Ark computer reveals that the Dinobots were lost fighting Shockwave in the Savage Land. An Autobot probe is sent to the Savage Land where it accidentally awakens Shockwave. It is revealed that the Dinobots were given dinosaur form to appear as the native life in the Savage Land. 

Transformers #8. Ratchet awakens the Dinobots in the Savage Land. It is noted in a caption off-panel that this event occurs shortly before the Savage Land was destroyed by Terminus in the current Avengers series. 

GI Joe #94. J. Jonah Jameson briefly appears asking for a copy of the Daily Bugle at a newstand that Storm Shadow and Stalker are hiding out in. The paper salesman tell jameson they don't carry that rag. 

Secret Wars II #4. Circuit Breaker briefly is summoned by the Beyonder. He has taken control of every one on Earth, and Circuit Breaker tells him that giant robots were the reason she was injured. 

Transformers UK #113. The Transformers battle the time and dimension travelling giant-sized mechanoid bounty hunter, Death's Head, who destroys Bumblebee, subsequently rebuilt as Goldbug. Note that TF UK stories seems to occur in an alternate reality, as it was GI Joe that destroyed Bumblebee in the American comics. Death's head appeared in Transformers UK #113-114, 117-118, 120, 133, 134, 146-151, and was lost between dimensions during a battle with Unicron. He was ulled out of limbo by an encounter with Doctor Who and his TARDIS from Doctor Who Magazine#135, who shrunk him down to human size. He had a second encounter with the Doctor in Death's Head #8, who dropped him off on the roof of Four Freedom's Plaza on Earth-616. 

As a final note, Transformers #1 states the Cybertron is form Alpha Centauri. In the MU, this is the home of Yondu of the Guardians of the Galaxy (and some other minor alien races).

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jan 2006 01:29 pm    
By bouncelot

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
Secret Wars II #4. Circuit Breaker briefly is summoned by the Beyonder. He has taken control of every one on Earth, and Circuit Breaker tells him that giant robots were the reason she was injured. 
<<<

I thought that this was #3 not #4. 


Quote: 
>>>
Transformers UK #113. The Transformers battle the time and dimension travelling giant-sized mechanoid bounty hunter, Death's Head, who destroys Bumblebee, subsequently rebuilt as Goldbug. Note that TF UK stories seems to occur in an alternate reality, as it was GI Joe that destroyed Bumblebee in the American comics. Death's head appeared in Transformers UK #113-114, 117-118, 120, 133, 134, 146-151, and was lost between dimensions during a battle with Unicron. He was ulled out of limbo by an encounter with Doctor Who and his TARDIS from Doctor Who Magazine#135, who shrunk him down to human size. He had a second encounter with the Doctor in Death's Head #8, who dropped him off on the roof of Four Freedom's Plaza on Earth-616. 
<<<

Um, actually, the character is called The Doctor and not Doctor Who. And the place Death's Head was travelling through was supposedly the Time-Space Vortex rather than limbo. 

As for the TF US and UK universes being different universe, that's highly debatable as there is one US reference to the UK comic and the UK continuity embraces all the US stories (OK, there are a couple of minor dialogue changes between the two versions) except - possibly the GI Joe crossover, which could be explained away by Bumblebee getting rebuilt into Goldbug twice - first by GI Joe (but then Autobot medic Ratchet restores him to his original form) and then by Wreck-Gar (and Ratchet can't be bothered to do it again). Oh, and the future stories from which Death's Head comes are not the future of the UK stories set in the present day. 

Some more MU/TF crossover moments and minor corrections: 

Transformers US #2 - there's a radio interview with the Dazzler (Dazzler doesn't appear in TF#3, though). 

Transformers US #3 - actually Reed Richards is only namechecked, and doesn't appear. 

Transformers UK #45-46 - Roxxon and the Daily Bugle both appear. 

Bob Budiansky introduced a character called Charlie Fong in a two-parter TF story. Fong later appeared in one of the MU titles he was involved in (sorry, forget the issue numbers - I still tend to think of TF in terms of UK issue numbers). 


Quote: 
>>>
As a final note, Transformers #1 states the Cybertron is form Alpha Centauri. In the MU, this is the home of Yondu of the Guardians of the Galaxy (and some other minor alien races). 
<<<

Well, actually it only explicitly states that Cybertron orbited Alpha Centurai four million years ago. The "planet" certainly didn't start its life there.

Last edited by bouncelot on 30 Jan 2006 01:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jan 2006 01:30 pm    
By jephyork
Director

The Primus/Unicron battle at the beginning of time likely can't "take place before the TF universe diverged". In TF continuity, Unicron eats everything in the previous universe, and is the only thing left to be reborn into the current universe. That doesn't mesh with Galactus' origin and HIS version of how the previous universe ended and was reborn. 

Therefore, it's likely that the divergence point for the TF universe is back in the previous universe -- well before the Primus/Unicron battle. 

And, yes, it's simply an amazing cosmic coincidence that the TF earth ended up having a Spider-Man, Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Godzilla, Jonah Jameson, Joe Robertson, symbiote costume and Savage Land. 

As for Circuit Breaker in SWII #4, I say the simplest solution is that, for whatever reason, the Beyonder plucked her from the TF universe. 


(And, as an aside, since the TF UK comics were clearly intended to exist in the same world as the TF US comics, my solution to the "who blew up Bumblebee?" disparity is simply that he was blown up twice. Once by G.I.Joe, who rebuilt him into Goldbug -- which Bumblebee liked, but Ratchet didn't. Ratchet fixed him off-panel after the story ended, making him back to Bumblebee -- only to have him be blown up AGAIN, and rebuilt into Goldbug by Wreck-Gar, who was likely working off blueprints/memories that Bumblebee had stored of his brief time as Goldbug. That's my take on it, anyway.) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jan 2006 03:40 pm    
By Somebody

How about "the first four issues, which were intended as a miniseries, are canon, issues #5-80 aren't"? 

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
(And, as an aside, since the TF UK comics were clearly intended to exist in the same world as the TF US comics, my solution to the "who blew up Bumblebee?" disparity is simply that he was blown up twice. Once by G.I.Joe, who rebuilt him into Goldbug -- which Bumblebee liked, but Ratchet didn't. Ratchet fixed him off-panel after the story ended, making him back to Bumblebee -- only to have him be blown up AGAIN, and rebuilt into Goldbug by Wreck-Gar, who was likely working off blueprints/memories that Bumblebee had stored of his brief time as Goldbug. That's my take on it, anyway.) 
<<<

Given that, ater all this, Ratchet turned him back into Bumblebee for the hellavit when Pretenderising him after Starscream blew him up... (not to mention that his Goldbug body had been destroyed and a new one constructed in the interventing period)... my head hurts

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jan 2006 06:19 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And, as an aside, since the TF UK comics were clearly intended to exist in the same world as the TF US comics... 
<<<

Well, it started off that way. Basically, the problem was that Marvel UK was running Transformers weekly, and needed to produce 50% original material simply to fill the pages. But of course, Marvel US didn't give a toss what the UK book was doing, so as time went on, storylines began to appear in the US book which were irreconcilable with events in the UK book, in increasingly obvious ways. Eventually, it reached the point where the UK editors were redialoguing whole scenes of the American reprints to get them into line. 

So while they may have started off intending to fit between the gaps, they ended up basically acknowledging their status as a separate (albeit similar) continuity. 

Also, while Transformers US shares a continuity with GI JOE, the UK book shares a continuity with ACTION FORCE instead.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Jan 2006 01:08 am    
By Nathan P. Mahney

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
How about "the first four issues, which were intended as a miniseries, are canon, issues #5-80 aren't"? 
<<<

That can't really work, because by the end of issue #4 the Autobots have all been destroyed (except for Ratchet) and the Decepticons are triumphant - they would surely have continued attacking Earth were this the case. The original ending of the miniseries, before they decided to make it an ongoing, had the Autobots triumphant. This could work, but it was never printed to my knowledge. The next best break point is probably the end of #8, where Ratchet defeats Megatron and heads off to reactivate the Autobots. It's also the last issue with a Marvel Universe reference.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Jan 2006 11:27 am    
By jephyork
Director

Mmm, Transformers. I love talking Transformers. 

Quote: 
>>>
ater all this, Ratchet turned him back into Bumblebee for the hellavit when Pretenderising him after Starscream blew him up... 
<<<

Actually, the fact that Ratchet preferred the Bumblebee body HELPS my theory -- since I'm positing that he rebuilt Goldbug back into Bumblebee off-panel just after "TransFormers/G.I.Joe"...  


Quote: 
>>>
How about "the first four issues, which were intended as a miniseries, are canon, issues #5-80 aren't"? 
<<<

Nah, as someone else said -- #4 ends on a cliffhanger! And MU references are made in later issues as well, so that demarcation point doesn't work. 


Quote: 
>>>
The original ending of the miniseries, before they decided to make it an ongoing, had the Autobots triumphant. This could work, but it was never printed to my knowledge. 
<<<

Actually... 

Marvel UK reprinted the first four issues of TF (or, more accurately, the first eight issues of TF UK, which was the same material with minor alterations) as a two-volume hardcover set called "TransFormers: the Complete Works". Rather than have Complete Works vol.2 end on the cliffhanger at the end of #4, they deleted Shockwave's sneak attack, and replaced it with two new panels of Optimus Prime making a feel-good speech about having to help the humans rebuild. It's not the original ending to the series, but I'm sure it's pretty damned close. 


Quote: 
>>>
Eventually, it reached the point where the UK editors were redialoguing whole scenes of the American reprints to get them into line ... while they may have started off intending to fit between the gaps, they ended up basically acknowledging their status as a separate (albeit similar) continuity. 
<<<

Yep -- it was at #255, I think, where the differences became completely irreconcilable -- which is really odd, because at that time Simon Furman was writing both books! I suppose I should rephrase my original statement, and say that TF UK #9-254 were intended to exist in the same universe as the US books. 


Quote: 
>>>
while Transformers US shares a continuity with GI JOE, the UK book shares a continuity with ACTION FORCE instead. 
<<<

...And Action Force, in turn, shares a hamfisted continuity with G.I. Joe... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Jan 2006 03:03 pm    
By Mikhail

Of course, the irreconcilable Earthforce continuity of UK #255-289 have that annoying glitch -- the fact that they continue the clearly canon storyline of the Survivors from Time Wars. 

So the start of that subplot (UK #199-205) is unflinchingly in continuity with the main universe, the end of it (UK #272-274) fits firmly into the uncompromisingly out-of-continuity Earthforce stories, leaving the middle stories (UK #219-222 and #237-239) as a transitional gray area. 

Wheeeeee....

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Jan 2006 05:00 pm    
By bouncelot

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Eventually, it reached the point where the UK editors were redialoguing whole scenes of the American reprints to get them into line ... while they may have started off intending to fit between the gaps, they ended up basically acknowledging their status as a separate (albeit similar) continuity. 
<<<

Yep -- it was at #255, I think, where the differences became completely irreconcilable -- which is really odd, because at that time Simon Furman was writing both books! I suppose I should rephrase my original statement, and say that TF UK #9-254 were intended to exist in the same universe as the US books. 
<<<

Of course, before that the differences between UK and US continuity amounted to a few panels - only one story had substantial dialogue changes. 

Jeph's right about the UK reprints of TF US #1-4, so you could take that part as canon (though it fails to account for the Circuit Breaker connection. Perhaps you could take US #1-12 as canon (a nice arc that ends with the Decepticons being defeated and includes all the US series' Marvel references except the later introduction of Charlie Fong) 


Quote: 
>>>
while Transformers US shares a continuity with GI JOE, the UK book shares a continuity with ACTION FORCE instead. 
<<<

...And Action Force, in turn, shares a hamfisted continuity with G.I. Joe...[/quote] 

Apart from renaming GI Joe into Action Force (maybe it could be explained away by being a NATO force where non-US troops were mixed with GI Joe troops?) is there any real reason those two can't be the same continuity?

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Feb 2006 06:43 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

bouncelot wrote: 
>>>
Apart from renaming GI Joe into Action Force (maybe it could be explained away by being a NATO force where non-US troops were mixed with GI Joe troops?) is there any real reason those two can't be the same continuity? 
<<<

Yes. It's impossible for them to be the same continuity, for a number of reasons. 

The basic problem here is that GI Joe was (understandably) considered to be rather unmarketable outside the US. So the whole line was renamed Action Force and turned into an international organisation. But rather than create new characters for the overseas market, they just took existing characters and gave them completely new backgrounds. So, for example, Flint is British in ACTION FORCE and American in GI JOE. 

ACTION FORCE WEEKLY did reprint a lot of GI JOE stories, but they were all redialogued to remove all references to GI Joe and (so far as the editors caught them) anything inconsistent with Action Force continuity. It's pretty clear in ACTION FORCE books that there is no organisation called GI Joe. Instead, Action Force take their place and (through the miracle of modified reprints) have essentially the same adventures. 

In America, the title GI JOE EUROPEAN MISSIONS eventually reprinted stories from the shortlived UK title ACTION FORCE MONTHLY. That series made no effort to revise the stories into line with US continuity. 

So the position is that in Marvel US's GI Joe continuity, there's a sister organisation in Europe called Action Force. But in Marvel UK's Action Force continuity - the one that directly crosses over with their TRANSFORMERS book - there is no GI Joe, and Action Force completely replace them.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Feb 2006 12:31 pm    
By rhod

I'm not that familiar with GIJoe, but wasn't Action force pretty much the same position? That's to say reprints of GIJoe with additional UK-written material? 
(and I thought some of those UK Action Force stories were then re-printed in the US as GIJoe: European Missions? I'm probably wrong about this, I never really got into Action Force) 
I personally consider TF canon, largely cos the letter stating it wasn't appeared in the US edition, which I never read. (Although I'm a little unfamiliar with anything after Time Wars, cos at the age of 13, I decided I was too old for comics.  )

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Feb 2006 12:34 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
So the position is that in Marvel US's GI Joe continuity, there's a sister organisation in Europe called Action Force. 
<<<

I wouldn't say that. Just because Marvel US published some Marvel UK Action Force stories doesn't mean that the concept of an "Action Force" organization now exists in Marvel US G.I. Joe continuity. It just means that Marvel US felt like publishing some Action Force stories. 

(Interestingly, one of the stories reprinted in "European Missions" was the Action Force / TransFormers crossover story, from TF UK #125 and AF #24-27!) 

My own personal take on reconciling the TF/Action Force crossover with Marvel US Transformers/G.I. Joe continuity is to claim that, although the REST of the Action Force comics are non-canon, those particular issues ARE -- and they feature the Marvel US G.I. Joe team, who has -- for whatever reason -- adopted "Action Force" as their codename for this *one single mission*. 

Again, that's my own personal take. Your mileage may vary. 


Quote: 
>>>
Perhaps you could take US #1-12 as canon (a nice arc that ends with the Decepticons being defeated and includes all the US series' Marvel references except the later introduction of Charlie Fong) 
<<<

Sadly, no -- again, the TF universe differs from the MU *from the beginning of time*. In MU continuity, the previous universe didn't end because Unicron ate everything in it. 


Quote: 
>>>
the start of that subplot (UK #199-205) is unflinchingly in continuity with the main universe, the end of it (UK #272-274) fits firmly into the uncompromisingly out-of-continuity Earthforce stories, leaving the middle stories (UK #219-222 and #237-239) as a transitional gray area. 
<<<

Well, since #235-236, the "Deathbringer" story, was referenced in a TF US issue, I'd say the gray area is less than you think. 

Again, here's my own personal take on things -- #255 is the first issue where US and UK continuity goes in SERIOUSLY different directions, as characters are revived from their destruction (in TF #50) by a version of Galvatron, rather than by Nucleon in TF #75. These awakened characters go on to create Earthforce, and basically nothing from that point on can fit with US continuity -- because in US continuity, they're not awakened until AFTER every last Transformer leaves Earth! 

TF UK had one previous story where the timeline was seriously altered -- "Time Wars", in #199-205. My own idea for reconciling the divergent US and UK storylines is -- another timeline divergence! 

In TF #73 or so, Primus is awakened from his slumber, and he transports every last Transformer back to Cybertron. That's the big divergence point -- after that, none of the Earthforce stories can work. Now, note that Primus is awakened by a TIME-TRAVELLER -- Galvatron, brought to this time by Unicron's agents from the dystopic future of TF #67! 

An argument could be made that Galvatron's presence altered the timeline. If he hadn't been brought to this time, he wouldn't have awakened Primus -- and the Transformers would have remained on earth. Then the events of TF UK #255-up could have occured (note that the Galvatron that awakened some TFs in TF UK #255 is a *different* character from a *different* timeline, and NOT the one who awakened Primus). 

But, since Galvatron WAS brought to this time, he altered it by awakening Primus -- and all of the "Earthforce" stories are essentially wiped from continuity -- replaced with a new timeline where the events of TF #74-80 and TF G2 #1-12 occur instead. 

Again -- your mileage may vary. But that's how I explain TF UK #9-254 being canon, while #255-289 aren't. 


Quote: 
>>>
I'm not that familiar with GIJoe, but wasn't Action force pretty much the same position? That's to say reprints of GIJoe with additional UK-written material? 
<<<

Well, as Paul O. points out, the G.I. Joe reprints were heavily doctored, and characters were given new backgrounds. As opposed to the TF US comics, which were reprinted in the UK with only the occasional light dialogue editing. 

Mmm, now I want to go re-read all these issues again. Hey, when is Titan going to collect the final one or two TF UK story arcs into oversized TPBs? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Feb 2006 01:33 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
bouncelot wrote: 
>>>
Perhaps you could take US #1-12 as canon (a nice arc that ends with the Decepticons being defeated and includes all the US series' Marvel references except the later introduction of Charlie Fong) 
<<<

Sadly, no -- again, the TF universe differs from the MU *from the beginning of time*. In MU continuity, the previous universe didn't end because Unicron ate everything in it. 
<<<

Correct me if I'm wrong (as you may have guessed from my earlier responses, my TPBs of this stuff are who-knows-where), but doesn't the Primus/Unicron origin of the TFs actively contradict the brief intro from TFUS #1? 

Either way, if we're only talking about #1-(some issue well before Furman takes over TFUS), that retcon doesn't come into it. It's only if you take the Furman TFUS issues that the Big Bang thing comes into it.

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Feb 2006 04:44 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Not really ... I mean, the Primus origin states that Primus deliberately trapped himself inside a metallic asteroid, and over time transformed the asteroid into Cybertron, and created mechanical life to populate it. 

Meanwhile, the brief intro in TF #1 has an extremely dubious claim that life on Cybertron evolved through "the interaction of naturally occuring gears, levers and pulleys that miraculously brought forth sentient beings." 

Good lord. What? I know which version of events I'D rather believe. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Feb 2006 11:52 am    
By rhod

Quote: 
>>>
Hey, when is Titan going to collect the final one or two TF UK story arcs into oversized TPBs? 
<<<

Pretty much all the UK (colour ) stuff has already been done, with the b&w stuff from the #200s in the process of being issued (theres a series of 5 digest-sized books planned, I think 2 of which are already available)

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Feb 2006 11:59 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Not really ... I mean, the Primus origin states that Primus deliberately trapped himself inside a metallic asteroid, and over time transformed the asteroid into Cybertron, and created mechanical life to populate it. 

Meanwhile, the brief intro in TF #1 has an extremely dubious claim that life on Cybertron evolved through "the interaction of naturally occuring gears, levers and pulleys that miraculously brought forth sentient beings." 
<<<

I don't see any necessary contradiction there. One identifies the prime mover, the other identifies the mechanism. It's no more contradictory than the widespread belief that God created life on earth, and did so via evolution.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Feb 2006 12:11 pm    
By jephyork
Director

rhod wrote: 
>>>
jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Hey, when is Titan going to collect the final one or two TF UK story arcs into oversized TPBs? 
<<<

Pretty much all the UK (colour ) stuff has already been done 
<<<

Yeah, "pretty much" all, but there's still the really early stuff -- #9-41 -- to go. Also, #125 and the Action Force crossover hasn't been collected, and it looked like Titan was slowly collecting all the non-text stories from all the Annuals, but there's still one or two to go there. They could probably put out three more oversized TPBs with all the material that's left. 

And I'm never ever going to see this happen, but it would be great to see the two *UK-original* TF:G2 stories collected somewhere, along with the G2 Halloween giveaway that was reprinted in the back of TF:G2 #2 ... and maybe that final page of Complete Works vol.2 could be stuck in somewhere as a curio. I'm sick of owning an oversized hardback book for one page.  

Oh, and TF #43. Dammit, I *know* it's a cartoon episode adaptation, but I want it collected! 


rhod wrote: 
>>>
with the b&w stuff from the #200s in the process of being issued (theres a series of 5 digest-sized books planned, I think 2 of which are already available) 
<<<

Yeah, I love those little digests -- four are out, and the fifth is coming soon. Hey, anyone want to buy my single issues of TF UK #215-289? Most still have their free gifts.......  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Feb 2006 12:32 pm
By bouncelot

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
Perhaps you could take US #1-12 as canon (a nice arc that ends with the Decepticons being defeated and includes all the US series' Marvel references except the later introduction of Charlie Fong) 
<<<
Sadly, no -- again, the TF universe differs from the MU *from the beginning of time*. In MU continuity, the previous universe didn't end because Unicron ate everything in it. 
<<<

Though if you're only accepting US #1-12 as canon, you're decanonising the Primus/Unicron origin of the TFs. 


Quote: 
>>>
Again, here's my own personal take on things -- #255 is the first issue where US and UK continuity goes in SERIOUSLY different directions, as characters are revived from their destruction (in TF #50) by a version of Galvatron, rather than by Nucleon in TF #75. These awakened characters go on to create Earthforce, and basically nothing from that point on can fit with US continuity -- because in US continuity, they're not awakened until AFTER every last Transformer leaves Earth! 

TF UK had one previous story where the timeline was seriously altered -- "Time Wars", in #199-205. My own idea for reconciling the divergent US and UK storylines is -- another timeline divergence! 

In TF #73 or so, Primus is awakened from his slumber, and he transports every last Transformer back to Cybertron. That's the big divergence point -- after that, none of the Earthforce stories can work. Now, note that Primus is awakened by a TIME-TRAVELLER -- Galvatron, brought to this time by Unicron's agents from the dystopic future of TF #67! 

An argument could be made that Galvatron's presence altered the timeline. If he hadn't been brought to this time, he wouldn't have awakened Primus -- and the Transformers would have remained on earth. Then the events of TF UK #255-up could have occured (note that the Galvatron that awakened some TFs in TF UK #255 is a *different* character from a *different* timeline, and NOT the one who awakened Primus). 

But, since Galvatron WAS brought to this time, he altered it by awakening Primus -- and all of the "Earthforce" stories are essentially wiped from continuity -- replaced with a new timeline where the events of TF #74-80 and TF G2 #1-12 occur instead. 
<<<

My take is somewhat similar. However, I take it that it wasn't Unicron snatching Galvatron per se that caused the divergence. It was which Galvatron he took. There are a couple of UK black and white stories set in the future which were published after Time Wars. And they show that the future Autobots involved in Time Wars returned to a time that wasn't their own and encounted a different Galvatron. This future was similar to, but different from, the future of the Galvatron whom Unicron snatched in the US stories. As the Galvatron in TF UK #255 is aware of time travel, perhaps the Earthforce timeline is a divergent timeline in which Unicron snatched the Galvatron from these black and white stories rather than the one from Rhythms of Darkness. 


Quote: 
>>>
Quote: 
>>>
I'm not that familiar with GIJoe, but wasn't Action force pretty much the same position? That's to say reprints of GIJoe with additional UK-written material? 
<<<

Well, as Paul O. points out, the G.I. Joe reprints were heavily doctored, and characters were given new backgrounds. As opposed to the TF US comics, which were reprinted in the UK with only the occasional light dialogue editing. 

Mmm, now I want to go re-read all these issues again. Hey, when is Titan going to collect the final one or two TF UK story arcs into oversized TPBs? 

-Jeph! 
<<<

Just how much was rewritten in the Action Force reprints? I own a few issues of the weekly and I'm sure I noticed several references in US stories to GI Joe, and none in those stories to Action Force, I'll have to go re-read them now to check (though I don't have any of the US issues to compare them with). If they'd used a few UK-exclusive characters, then my theory about how you might reconcile the two continuities by proposing a NATO force including GI Joe characters would make a lot more sense. Silly Marvel UK.  

Oh, as to my earlier query about TF US #3, anybody got any ideas about how I can narrow down when Nick Fury and Dum-Dum Duggan's cameos in TF US #3 would have occured in their timelines had the issue not been subsequently declared non-canon? Spidey's between ASM #257 and ASM #258, Joe Robertson's between PPTSS #97 and ASM #260.

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Feb 2006 12:40 pm    
By rhod

Quote: 
>>>
the really early stuff -- #9-41 -- to go. Also, #125 and the Action Force crossover hasn't been collected, and it looked like Titan was slowly collecting all the non-text stories from all the Annuals, but there's still one or two to go there. 
<<<

True, I tend to forget about stuff that I already own, and while I usually tend to share your 'TPB over comic' POV for purposes of saving space, I make an exception in the case of TF, at least until the Robo-Capers TPB comes out  

Also, TFUS 43 isn't worth having without the UK framing pages, IMO.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Feb 2006 08:59 am    
By jephyork
Director

Unfortunately, they reprinted the framing pages -- but not the issue itself -- in one of the UK TPBs. Rrr. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Feb 2006 05:48 pm    
By bouncelot

Unfortunately? DId you really want to read that story again? Especially since it's basically non-canon in both UK and US continuities. 

Anyway, just to ask again, does anyone have anywhere to point me to work out where the SHIELD cameos in Transformers US #3 would have been had Marvel not declared them non-canon? Any idea what issues featuring Fury and Dum-Dum were roughly contemporaneous with ASM#257/258 so I have something to work with? 

Is there a tool somewhere that allows me to compare those characters' chronologies?

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Feb 2006 06:09 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'll try to answer your question, but beware, cause you may not like the answer. Many of us in these parts are not very good at determining where appearances occur in non-canon stories, so that may be part of the reason why you haven't yet received an answer. Since the stories aren't canon, there's nowhere for the appearances to occur. 

You may be able to match the chronologies here with the publishing schedules at http://www.maelmill-insi.de/UHBMCC/ 


watching: situation room

			*	*	*

Posted: 08 Feb 2006 11:06 am    
By jephyork
Director

I finally put my finger on why I don't like the thinking that "only TF #1-12 are canon". 

The fact is, the *entire* TF series is canon  in that it takes place in the larger Marvel Multiverse/Omniverse. 

We know this because it's the home universe of Death's Head. He explicitly traveled from the TF Universe to the Marvel Universe  therefore, the TF Universe (1) is a canon universe, and (2) is explicitly NOT the same as the Marvel Universe. 

Therefore, we can't claim that #1-12 are Earth-616 canon and the rest isn't canon at all. We've got proof that the entire series IS canon, and we've got proof that the entire series is in a different universe than Earth-616. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 04:12 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It depends what you mean by "canon." You can travel to the Marvel Universe from Earth-DC, Earth-WildStorm and Earth-Invincible, but that doesn't mean those books are canon.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 04:19 am   
By Nathan P. Mahney

Yeah, but those books don't have analogues of Spider-Man, SHIELD, the Savage Land, and other Marvel characters, and they weren't published by Marvel. I like Jeph's idea.
_________________
- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 12:21 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Editor's Note: in the following thread I'm using "Omniverse" in the Mark Gruenwald sense of the word -- meaning "LARGER than the Multiverse". I'm NOT using it in the Alan Moore definition, which basically is synonymous with Multiverse.] 

Paul, I'm not sure what your objection is. It DOES depend on what I mean by "canon" -- but I defined what I meant in my previous post: 

Quote: 
>>>
the *entire* TF series is canon  in that it takes place in the larger Marvel Multiverse/Omniverse. 
<<<

Does that mean we should feel a burden to create and maintain chronologies for all the characters in that universe? No -- that falls outside the scope of the MCP. But that doesn't mean it's "non-canon" -- which I define as meaning "it doesn't 'really exist' the same way the Marvel Universe 'really exists'." 

I suppose it depends on what you mean by NON-canon, as well. 

I see you picked three examples of universes where characters HAVE travelled to the Marvel Universe -- DC (Marvel vs. DC), Wildstorm (Heroes Reborn #13s), and Invincible (MTU3 #14). But what do you mean, the crossovers don't prove that their universes are canon? Sure they do. 

By my definition of "canon" above, the characters' ability to cross into the Marvel Universe and appear in stories that Marvel considers canon, indicates that their home universes "really exist" within the boundaries of the greater Marvel Omniverse. 

The folks from, say, CrossGen have never made a Marvel-canon appearance. We don't have to assume they're set on "Earth-Crossgen", which exists within the Marvel Omniverse -- we can safely say "okay, that's a non-canon story". In other words, it's just a comic book to us. 

But I don't think we can do that with DC, Wildstorm or Invincible comics. We've got evidence, in the form of stories Marvel considers canon, that those characters and their universes are actual physical places, reachable by dimensional travel, that exist within the Omniverse. 

Those universes may be well outside the boundaries of the MCP -- and if THAT'S your definition of "canon", then we agree -- but we do have evidence that they're "just as real" as the Marvel Multiverse is. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 01:37 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
The fact is, the *entire* TF series is canon  in that it takes place in the larger Marvel Multiverse/Omniverse. 
<<<

You're diluting the meaning of the word. Everything is canon in the omniverse. The Banana Splits are canon in the omniverse. 


watching: live from

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 02:07 pm    
By Somebody

Exactly. Hell, WE'RE canon in the Omniverse  

And once Primus & Unicron come into it, that takes it out of the Marvel Multiverse by definition, since as you say, the origin of that TFU has nothing to do with the Origin of the MU. I still think calling TFUS #1-12 canon for the MU is the way to go. (And before you start getting picky about counterparts again, I remind you that the MU has a Clark Kent & Lois Lane, both of whom have made multiple appearances (look at their entries in this very Project), and a Hal Jordan - a nut in an insane asylum going on about his ring & willpower; and the originals of those aren't in the Marvel Multiverse)

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 02:29 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I don't think I'm diluting the meaning of "Omniverse" -- at least, as I understand it. 

I first encountered the term in Quasar #31, where Quasar described the New Universe as existing outside the Multiverse, but inside the Omniverse. I took it to be the umbrella term for all the various Multiverses -- just like "Multiverse" is the umbrella term for all the various universes. 

What's the distinction? Who knows? Probably the degree of separation from the "core" universe, 616. But my point is, I define "Omniverse" to mean that place where all the non-Marvel universes, that have been shown to "exist" by virtue of a canon crossover, exist. 

I DON'T take it to mean the place where all comic universes -- from the Banana Splits to Star Comics to Strangers in Paradise -- exist. 

Does the term have an official definition? Am I misusing it? 

(Sheesh -- now this thread needs official definitions for "canon" and "omniverse".) 

Regardless -- I think my explanation for why TF #1-12 can't be regarded as Earth-616 canon still stands. Death's Head comes from that dimension -- therefore that dimension exists. And it exists SOMEWHERE out there in the Marvel mythos. (Multiverse, Omniverse, Whatever-verse. It's out there and it's possible to travel from it to Earth-616.) 

Since we know it to it exist, we can't pick and choose and say "oh, issues #1-12 happened on Earth-616 and the rest of the series didn't happen at all." The entire series DID happen -- it all happened in the SAME dimension -- and that dimension is NOT Earth-616. 

If you decide that TF #1-12 happened on Earth-616, and the rest of the series didn't happen at all -- then you knock Death's Head's first appearances out of continuity. 

(Not to mention, you go against the stated opinion of whoever at Marvel wrote the letter in the letters page saying that the series didn't take place on Earth-616...) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 05:10 pm    
By Starman

I think this text I once found on The Appendix to the Handbook of the Marvel Universe explained it well. 

Quoted from http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/appalte.htm#Omniverse 
>>>
The Appendix to the Handbook of the Marvel Universe wrote: 
* A Universe is a single dimension reality, such as Earth-616, the mainstream Marvel Universe. 
Uni - "one" 

* The Multiverse is the collection of alternate dimensions with a similar nature and universal hierarchy. Earth-616, pretty much all of the What if? worlds, and the vast bulk of the alternate Earths seen in the MU (which include beings like the Watcher, Eternity, etc) are within the same Multiverse. The myriad realms of Earth-616's Multiverse are overseen by the Living Tribunal. Those realms that lack this hierarchy of power are outside of the Multiverse, but within the larger Omniverse. 
Multi - "many" 

* The Omniverse is the collection of every single universe, dimension, etc. This includes the real world (right outside of your window--get out of your parent's basements and check it out!!), but it also includes every single universe, realm, etc., every mentioned in any of Marvel Comics, as well as those from DC, Image, Dark Horse, etc. It includes every single literary, television show, movie, urban legend, whatever universe/realm ever. It includes everyone from Popeye to Rocky Balboa to Ronald Reagan to Romeo and Juliet to Luke Skywalker to Snoopy to Jay and Silent Bob, etc. 
EVERYTHING is in the Omniverse, and there is only one Omniverse. Period. The End. 
Omni - "all" 
<<<

_________________
- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 05:42 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
(Not to mention, you go against the stated opinion of whoever at Marvel wrote the letter in the letters page saying that the series didn't take place on Earth-616...) 
<<<

That's really all we need. Transformers isn't canon, because Marvel editorial says it isn't. 


watching: 24

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Feb 2006 07:37 pm    
By ShadZ

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I DON'T take it to mean the place where all comic universes -- from the Banana Splits to Star Comics to Strangers in Paradise -- exist. 
<<<


Just a small digression -- the Star Comics universe is part of the Marvel Multiverse. It has a Millie Collins (Millie the Model), Peter Parker (who wasn't Spider-Man) and J. Jonah Jameson.
_________________
ShadZ

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Feb 2006 02:29 pm    
By bouncelot

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Regardless -- I think my explanation for why TF #1-12 can't be regarded as Earth-616 canon still stands. Death's Head comes from that dimension -- therefore that dimension exists. And it exists SOMEWHERE out there in the Marvel mythos. (Multiverse, Omniverse, Whatever-verse. It's out there and it's possible to travel from it to Earth-616.) 

Since we know it to it exist, we can't pick and choose and say "oh, issues #1-12 happened on Earth-616 and the rest of the series didn't happen at all." The entire series DID happen -- it all happened in the SAME dimension -- and that dimension is NOT Earth-616. 

If you decide that TF #1-12 happened on Earth-616, and the rest of the series didn't happen at all -- then you knock Death's Head's first appearances out of continuity. 
<<<

Except that the timeline from which Death's Head comes in the TF comics isn't the future of the present day TF stories any more than the future Rachel Summers comes from is the future of the X-Men.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Feb 2006 12:58 pm    
By jephyork
Director

But it used to be, until TF UK #205, when a new future was created. 

The point is -- if that alternate future exists somewhere in the Marvel Multiverse, then the present and past that it branched from also exist. (They lead to a new future now, but they still exist.) And we've been shown that that timeline differs from the Marvel Universe from the moment of creation -- Unicron vs. Galactus. 

Therefore, the TF Universe can't be the Marvel Universe, and it can't be regarded as "imaginary". 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Feb 2006 01:08 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
And we've been shown that that timeline differs from the Marvel Universe from the moment of creation -- Unicron vs. Galactus. 
<<<

Which means that the timeline in question CAN'T BE IN THE MARVEL MULTIVERSE by definition. 

In addition, we know of at least one Transformers universe - the original cartoon - where there IS no Primus and Unicron wasn't the fallen god from Furman's story, so we also know that that isn't essential for a universe with Transformers.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Feb 2006 06:54 pm    
By SeanCurtin

I don't think that that indicates that, unless Marvel has come right out and said "all universes have a Galactus" via a reliable source. It does mean that the TF universe(s) can't be a divergent timeline from the past of Earth-616, but it could be a parallel timeline: a broadly similar universe to Earth-616, but, unlike a divergent timeline, one which has no specific point at which that universe began to differ from Earth-616. The Squadron Supreme's universe is the textbook example of a parallel timeline. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Feb 2006 11:58 am    
By jephyork
Director

Somebody, you can't use the backstory from the TF cartoon to establish facts about the TF comic, anymore than you can use the X-Men cartoon to draw conclusions about the X-Men comic. 

Also, why couldn't the TF Universe have split off from the Marvel Multiverse PRIOR TO THE BIG BANG? 

In the Marvel Multiverse, the universe ended by one means, and Galactus was the sole survivor. In the TF universe, the universe ended because Unicron ate everything, and HE was the sole survivor. 

(In fact, I wonder if "parallel worlds" -- as opposed to "divergent worlds" -- might simply be worlds that diverged before the Marvel Multiverse's Big Bang. They've been diverged literally since before the beginning of time, so they appear to have no divergence point -- they appear to be "parallel".) 

On a semi-related note, I was thinking of redefining "Multiverse" for the purposes of this thread. I've been told I can't use "Omniverse" to mean "worlds that aren't in the Marvel Multiverse but can still cross over with it" -- because "Omniverse" literally means "everything", including you and me -- but how about this? 

"Marvel Multiverse" = all the divergent and parallel worlds owned under Marvel copyright. 

"Greater Multiverse" = all the worlds that have, in a Marvel-canon story, crossed over with the Marvel Universe -- but that Marvel DOESN'T own a copyright on. 

The "Greater Multiverse" would include the DC, Wildstorm and Earth-Invincible worlds, among others -- and would be where I'm suggesting the TF Universe resides. 

Not being part of the Marvel Multiverse, it's outside our mandate -- we don't need to develop chronologies for the characters in it. However, neither can we write it off as non-canon, nor can we pick and choose, saying "these issues are canon and these aren't". 

It crossed over with Marvel. Marvel acknowledges the crossover. Therefore it's now a canon alternate universe in the Greater Multiverse. 

And therefore ... not that anyone's claiming this anymore, but just to remind folks why I'm bothering ... we CANNOT claim that TF #1-12 occured in the MU, and the rest of the series is non-canon. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Feb 2006 12:25 pm    
By scottandrewhutchins

Marvel says the Omniverse includes us, and we don't have a Galactus, so of course not every universe in the omniverse has a Galactus. 

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Feb 2006 06:10 pm    
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
Also, why couldn't the TF Universe have split off from the Marvel Multiverse PRIOR TO THE BIG BANG? 

In the Marvel Multiverse, the universe ended by one means, and Galactus was the sole survivor. 
<<<

But the Marvel multiverse didn't begin that way; as far as we know, only the Marvel universe (Earth-616) and its divergent counterparts did. To the best of my knowledge, we've never seen a Galactus in a parallel timeline, only in divergent ones. 


jephyork wrote: 
>>>
(In fact, I wonder if "parallel worlds" -- as opposed to "divergent worlds" -- might simply be worlds that diverged before the Marvel Multiverse's Big Bang. They've been diverged literally since before the beginning of time, so they appear to have no divergence point -- they appear to be "parallel".) 
<<<

A divergence point before the dawn of time is still a divergence point, though. And parallel worlds, like the Squadron Supreme's world, are definitely part of the Marvel multiverse. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Feb 2006 09:56 am    
By jephyork
Director

Well, okay. So, we're agreed that a dimension doesn't have to have the same beginning-of-time as Earth-616 and its divergent worlds, to be a part of the Multiverse. 

So, aside from Marvel not having the copyright, there's nothing stopping the Transformers' dimension from being part of the Multiverse. 

Is anyone here still contending the opposite -- that TF #1-12 occured on Earth-616? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Feb 2006 03:28 pm    
By Somebody

Me, not least since your definition is unworkable - the New Universe is Marvel-published & copyright, but is explicitly not in the Marvel Multiverse. 

And you still haven't given a good reason why TFUS #1-12, ***VIEWED IN ISOLATION*** can't take place on Earth-616 in addition to whichever universe the rest of the TFUS issues occur in.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Feb 2006 03:38 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I thought this had been addressed. Marvel said it doesn't take place on Earth 616. That's a good enough reason for me. 


watching: spiders 2

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Feb 2006 07:49 pm    
By scottandrewhutchins

It would be interesting if Marvel ever did get the rights back and could do a story with Spider-Man, Nick Fury, Ka-Zar, et al. with those of the same universe that appeared or were implied in issues 3, 4, and 8. I say that because the ramifications of having TF in the Marvel Universe is so much greater than that of Godzilla, Shogun Warriors, or even Micronauts or ROM, necessitating that it NOT be Earth-616. A comic that actually went wild with those ramifications is one that could be pure genius or pure disaster, without much in-between.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Feb 2006 11:12 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Somebody, the Administrator's definitive answer aside, I think you're REALLY obscuring the issue. Omniverse, Multiverse, divergent world, parallel world -- Jesus Christ, they're just TERMS. 

You've been focusing on the small stuff since the beginning of this thread. The TF Universe didn't start the same way as the Marvel Universe, because there's no Galactus -- okay, but so what? It's been pointed out that "parallel" worlds exist in the Multiverse as well as "divergent" worlds, and those "parallel" worlds didn't all start the same way. 

Forget "greater Multiverse" -- I was trying to make the issue clearer, to provide an umbrella term other than "Omniverse" to lump all the universes that AREN'T part of the Marvel Multiverse, but nonetheless have crossed over with it. That's completely irrelevant to this discussion, though, and was more of a holdover from Paul O'Brien suggesting that the DC, Wildstorm and Invincible Universes were somehow "non-canon" even though they've had canon crossovers with Earth-616. 

So, forget that completely. Obviously I've just confused the issue in your mind. Focus on "parallel worlds" -- do you accept that the TF Universe can be one of THOSE? 

It seems that you do, from your previous post -- and that you're now contending that the events of TF #1-12 took place IDENTICALLY in BOTH universes. 

Good grief. 

Well, just for the sake of argument, even if they DID -- that doesn't mean that TF #1-12 chronicles the Earth-616 version of those events! 

You can't claim that those issues take place in BOTH UNIVERSES AT ONCE -- even if the events were identical, it should stand to reason that the comics only showed you one dimension. You can't, for example, credit Optimus Prime-616 AND Optimus Prime-Earth-TF with appearing in the issues. You've got to pick. 

And, which universe shall we pick? Well, since Marvel says that the TF series doesn't take place on Earth-616 ... well, that's it. End of discussion. 

Really, the very, very best you'll get out of your latest contention is that an "Earth-616 Circuit Breaker" exists, and it was she who appeared in Secret Wars II. 

And since I don't buy for a second that both worlds had the same exact events occur on them ... that's not too likely to happen either. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Mar 2006 06:49 pm    
By wolframbane

The new OHOTMU A to Z #3, under the Death's head listing, refers specifically the Transformers universe as Earth-120185. It refers to many of the Transformers by name, and even mentions the Doctor from Dr. Who.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Mar 2006 10:43 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Wow, ballsy considering they don't own the copyrights. 

By the way, the Alternate Universes Handbook posits a similar concept as something I was suggesting earlier in the thread: I called it the "Greater Multiverse" but they named it the "Megaverse", one step between a Multiverse and the Omniverse. A place where universes and dimensions that are associated with, but not a part of, the Multiverse, exist. 

I'm warming up to this new crop of Handbooks.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Mar 2006 04:42 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Legally, they're probably safe with this sort of reference. They're just describing the published history of a character; an independent reference guide could get away with it, and there's no reason why Marvel themselves should be any worse off. It's simply a description of stories that were legally published at the time.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Mar 2006 02:00 pm    
By scottandrewhutchins

It will be interesting to see if ROM rates an entry, since he was explicitly in the mianstream Marvel Universe, but it would be truly surprising if Marvel still owns the character, inactive and armorless though he may be. Godzilla generally gets only an appendix entry, for obvious reasons.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Mar 2006 02:12 pm    
By Somebody

I would say no - since the Spaceknights mini a few years back couldn't depict him. 

That said, the Essential Handbook DID reprint the ROM entry. I still doubt he'd get an entry.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Mar 2006 06:05 pm    
By SeanCurtin

scottandrewhutchins wrote: 
>>>
it would be truly surprising if Marvel still owns the character 
<<<

They never owned the character. They licensed him from Parker Brothers. I would imagine that Marvel wouldn't bother with paying another licensing fee just to give the character a profile in the new OHOTMU, especially since he's not done anything of note since then. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Mar 2006 10:54 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
I would say no - since the Spaceknights mini a few years back couldn't depict him.  
<<<

I wonder if the Spaceknights would warrant an entry in the new handbooks, then, (as that miniseries was more recently published). Do the Spaceknights exist in the same universe as the regular Marvel universe?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Mar 2006 01:16 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The Spaceknights are Marvel Universe characters but it's anyone's guess whether they'll be in the A to Z or not. The character selection is, shall we say, a bit random. (Comet Man's son, but not Comet Man...?)
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Mar 2006 07:24 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
The Spaceknights are Marvel Universe characters but it's anyone's guess whether they'll be in the A to Z or not. The character selection is, shall we say, a bit random. (Comet Man's son, but not Comet Man...?) 
<<<

In theory, one of the main criteria for inclusion is that the character has never recieved a profile before, or, if they have, the character has changed significantly enough to merit a revised entry. Comet Man hasn't done anything of note since his entry in the Update '89, whereas Benny Beckley got some notability out of his major villain role in Earth X. 

In practice, yes, quite random indeed. (Crazy Eight gets an entry, but not Avalanche or Cloak?) 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Mar 2006 09:03 pm    
By lkseitz

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
They never owned the character. They licensed him from Parker Brothers. I would imagine that Marvel wouldn't bother with paying another licensing fee just to give the character a profile in the new OHOTMU, especially since he's not done anything of note since then. 
<<<

I'd say you're dead on with Rom not getting a new entry. His OHOTMU-DE entry was just after his series ended. The only thing he's done since then is die.  

Actually, there is interesting Rom news afoot. Bing McCoy, who came up with the concept for the Rom action figure and sold it to Parker Brothers, is in the midst of negotations with Hasbro -- Hasbro now owns Parker Brothers -- to create an animated Rom series on the Web. I haven't gotten details, but McCoy mentioned this in an e-mail to me: 


Quote: 
>>>
Marvel also planning to include ROM in a new anthology of Marvel superheros - just a couple of pages. 
<<<

Unfortunately I don't know exactly what that means. I'm wondering if it refers just to them reprinting his entries in the ESSENTIAL OHOTMU volumes.
_________________
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Mar 2006 03:54 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

UPDATE '89 has been out of print for 17 years, though! And the profile is for Benny Beckley, not for the EARTH X character. 

Cloak's not there because he was covered in the Marvel Knights handbook a while back. Avalanche has a tiny paragraph in 198 FILES. 

But there are some glaring omissions that I can't made sense of at all. Given some of the schlubs who have qualified for a listing, I can't for the lfe of me see how Arcade, AIM or the Cat (who's been heavily used in CABLE & DEADPOOL) fail to get in.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Mar 2006 06:18 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
UPDATE '89 has been out of print for 17 years, though! 
<<<

I would be very surprised if they don't reprint the Update in Essential format after the Deluxe Edition reprints are done. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Mar 2006 07:29 pm    
By Somebody

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Paul O'Brien wrote: 
>>>
UPDATE '89 has been out of print for 17 years, though! 
<<<

I would be very surprised if they don't reprint the Update in Essential format after the Deluxe Edition reprints are done. 
<<<

And we can see such Essential profiles as the infamous Jubilee one 

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Mar 2006 03:26 am    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It's nowhere near long enough to fill an ESSENTIAL volume on its own, though.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Mar 2006 09:19 am    
By jephyork
Director

Eight 48-page issues, plus covers, would be 416 pages -- a slim Essential, but possible. Personally, I hope it happens. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Mar 2006 01:50 pm    
By Mikhail

Maybe they could toss in the New Universe Handbook entries which were printed in the back of the NU titles here and there.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Apr 2006 03:13 pm    
By Andy Grant

The TF Universe as Earth-120185 
That's cute... the release date of Transformers The Movie, no? 

Regarding the various divergent TF universes... it's important to remember that Time Travel works under completely different rules in the TFU to the MU. 

The entire plot of Target:2006 hangs on the Autobots convincing Galvatron that he has travelled back to an alternate history rather than his own past and that as a result nothing he does here will affect his future. 
This is markedly different from the MU where the very act of travelling to the past causes a divergent reality and not being able to affect the future is the standard. 

The 2006 future remains the "true" future throughout multiple time travel excursions, when characters travel back in time others are displaced to limbo to balance the amount of mass in the universe. All evidence points to there only being one timeline in the TFU and you can travel back and change the past but it doesn't really affect your future because you've already travelled back to the past. You can't change history because you were there the first time, if you see what I mean. Ratchet changes Goldbug back into Bumblebee because we know he has to be back in that body in time for Transformers The Movie. At no point does Editorial invoke MU rules and suggest that the arrival of the future characters diverged the TFU away from TF:TM (It would have been less work for them, albeit with less interesting results, if they had!) It's only when the neat little rules balancing this system are circumvented that the universe forms a rift and we get Time Wars. It's the healing of the rift that creates a "divergent" timeline -- really a "replacement" timeline. 

One more thing, Marvel UK Editorial explicitly stated that the US GIJoe/TF crossover was non-canonical for UK transformers when they reprinted it.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Apr 2006 04:04 pm    
By Somebody

1) There was a Marvel version of the Unicron fight in TFUS #75 which was very different from the TFTM version - not least of which was that OPTIMUS Prime destroyed Unicron with the Matrix, and the Galvatron that was there was from a version of the TFTM future where Unicron & the Decepticons WON (i.e., different from TFTM, the "real" TFUS future which had no Rodimus and either future of TFUK). 

2) Time Wars changed the future of the TFUK story to be different from both TFUS and TFTM so that Rodimus contained Unicron within the Matrix rather than destroyed him. 

3) The "Earthforce" stories diverged TFUK from TFUS in the "present" 

4) Goldbug got changed back to Bumblebee because Hasbro had just released a "Pretender Bumblebee" toy based on the original, not because of any storyline concerns. 

5) The movie was set in 2005. "Target: 2006" was because Furman was working off an early (and partial - they didn't know about Hot Rod becoming Rodimus) draft of the script that set TFTM in 2006 rather than 2005.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Apr 2006 04:14 pm    
By Andy Grant

The alternative Unicron fight happened after Time Wars. 
The pre Time Wars TFU had repeated trips between future and past without any divergences. Demonstrably not the same rules in play as in the MU.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Apr 2006 11:45 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I wasn't aware the Marvel Universe HAD any consistent time-travel rules. Oh, I know they used to pretend they do, but it seems to me they just go with whatever works for any given story. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 May 2006 03:36 pm    
By bouncelot

Andy Grant wrote: 
>>>
The alternative Unicron fight happened after Time Wars. 
The pre Time Wars TFU had repeated trips between future and past without any divergences. Demonstrably not the same rules in play as in the MU. 
<<<

Actually, one of the UK Annual stories established that the Ark stayed in Mount St Hillary right up until 2003 in the Movie timeline - which was contradicted when the Ark left Mt St Hillary about halfway through the run (TFUS #35/TFUK#142) - well before Time Wars, Bumblebee's reconstruction, etc.. And there's no evidence at all that that story was considered non-canon. By this point the comic stories in the annual were all intended to be canonical. 

And the UK stories were totally consistent in dating the Movie to 2006, so the comic version of the story really did take place in 2006. 

I'd say that the TFUK series model of time travel is that you travel to (or create) an alternative past when you travel back in time, plus your origin timeline is "anchored" to the alternative past so that events in the two eras keep in synch with each other. Though it's possible that this is simply an artefact of the method of timetravel used, and other methods would cause different types of interaction with history.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Nov 2006 08:54 am    
By Enda80

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
There were several instances where Transformers and GI Joe connected with one another, including GI Joe and the Transformers #1-4 (and related references within the Transformers and GI Joe titles themselves), GI Joe # 138-142 (Cobra rebuilds Megatron, who later battles several Autobots in Millville and steals the Ark), Transformers: Generation 2 #2 (Hot Spot fights Cobra and Ark destroyed) and Transformers: Generation 2 #4 (Optimus Prime meets with Hawk and GI Joe). This would seem to indicate that Transformers and GI Joe co-exist within the same universe. The current GI Joe comic by Devil's Due seems to be a continuation of the original Marvel Comics continuity, while the current Transformers comics do not. 

As for how and if Transformers and GI Joe fit into the Marvel Universe. There are several instances of crossovers with Transformers in th MU, not so many with GI Joe. Initially when Transformers was published, it was intended to be part of Marvel continuity, but it was also intended to be a four issue mini-series as well. As time and circumstances wore on, ties to Marvel continuity fell by the wayside, while connections to GI Joe continuity strengthened. 

Appearances of established Marvel characters within Transfomers/GI Joe continuity are likely the result of a) dimensional travel, b) a brief 'merging' of the Earths such as when Access combines the DC and Marvel universes, or c) counterparts of Marvel characters that are native to the TF universe. It would seem probable that superheroes do exist in the TF universe, but perhaps to a far lesser degree than the MU. 

Here is a list of all the crossovers of the TF universe and MU I am aware of: 

Transformers #3. Spider-Man teams up with Gears and is a major part of the story. Dazzler, Reed Richards, Joe Robertson and the Daily Bugle also appear. Nick Fury of SHIELD tells Dum Dum Dugan that unless the reports involve a giant lizard, he is not interested, implying Godzilla (from the Godzilla 1970s series where he often fought SHIELD). A footnote states that Spider-Man wears his black symbiote costume because this story took place before Amazing Spider-Man#258. 

Transformers #4. The Ark computer reveals that the Dinobots were lost fighting Shockwave in the Savage Land. An Autobot probe is sent to the Savage Land where it accidentally awakens Shockwave. It is revealed that the Dinobots were given dinosaur form to appear as the native life in the Savage Land. 

Transformers #8. Ratchet awakens the Dinobots in the Savage Land. It is noted in a caption off-panel that this event occurs shortly before the Savage Land was destroyed by Terminus in the current Avengers series. 

GI Joe #94. J. Jonah Jameson briefly appears asking for a copy of the Daily Bugle at a newstand that Storm Shadow and Stalker are hiding out in. The paper salesman tell jameson they don't carry that rag. 

Secret Wars II #4. Circuit Breaker briefly is summoned by the Beyonder. He has taken control of every one on Earth, and Circuit Breaker tells him that giant robots were the reason she was injured. 

Transformers UK #113. The Transformers battle the time and dimension travelling giant-sized mechanoid bounty hunter, Death's Head, who destroys Bumblebee, subsequently rebuilt as Goldbug. Note that TF UK stories seems to occur in an alternate reality, as it was GI Joe that destroyed Bumblebee in the American comics. Death's head appeared in Transformers UK #113-114, 117-118, 120, 133, 134, 146-151, and was lost between dimensions during a battle with Unicron. He was ulled out of limbo by an encounter with Doctor Who and his TARDIS from Doctor Who Magazine#135, who shrunk him down to human size. He had a second encounter with the Doctor in Death's Head #8, who dropped him off on the roof of Four Freedom's Plaza on Earth-616. 

As a final note, Transformers #1 states the Cybertron is form Alpha Centauri. In the MU, this is the home of Yondu of the Guardians of the Galaxy (and some other minor alien races). 
<<<

The Jameson appearances seems to have occured in #95. 

Don't forget, btw, that in Marvel Year-In-Review 1991, a picture of the GI Joe Roadblock appears (since Liefeld swiped from the Joes artist or vice versa). He is called an unidentified merc or some such. Since MYIR is set up as a false document from Earth-616, this merits mention.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Nov 2006 06:20 pm    
By wolframbane

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
As a final note, Transformers #1 states the Cybertron is form Alpha Centauri. In the MU, this is the home of Yondu of the Guardians of the Galaxy (and some other minor alien races). 
<<<

BTW, I did some digging and found those other alien races from the Centauri system. According to the OHOTMU2 15: 

Alpha Centaurians, from Arima orbiting Alpha Centauri A. They attempted to steal Earth's oceans in Sub-Mariner #17. 

Centaurians, from Centauri-IV orbiting Beta Centauri A. Yonu of the Guardians of the Galaxy is the last survivor n Marvel Super Heroes #18. 

Centaurii, from Centauri-Six orbiting Proxima Centauri. The Grey gargoyle and the crew of the Bird of Prey sold theminto slavery in Thor #258. 

Note also that the Centauri system is actually a trinary star system, encompassing Alpha, Beta and Proxima Centauri.

			*	*	*

Posted: 16 Nov 2006 06:47 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Guys, get back on topic. This has nothing to do with chronology. 


watching: jeopardy

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Mar 2007 10:42 am    
By Enda80

One more reference to GI Joe/Transformers occurs in an Earth-616 series. MVL Year In Review 1991 actually has a shot of Roadblock of GI Joe striking a pose later copied by Cable.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Mar 2007 02:39 pm    
By Col_Fury

Didn't you just say that three posts up?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Mar 2007 02:40 pm    
By Somebody


Not "Just" - it was four months back. His memory overwrites itself after three.

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Mar 2007 02:59 pm    
By Col_Fury

Nice. 

But that was my point. He revived a thread that's been dead for four months to repeat himself.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Posted: 27 Mar 2007 06:57 am    Post subject: Iron man volume 3 #1-#83
By Arthur
Director

Iron Man Volume 3 #1-#83 

* adjustment required 
** new entries 


ANGEL III/WARREN KENNETH WORTHINGTON III 

X 109 
*IM3 37 Should read IM3 37-FB (3:1 - 22:5 precedes pg 1, starting to explain what brought us to the pg 1 situation) <<LOTS of this to come>> 
TB 57 


BLACK KING/SEBASTIAN SHAW 

GENX 69-FB 
*IM3 37 37 Should read IM3 37-FB (3:1 - 22:5 precedes pg 1, starting to explain what brought us to the pg 1 situation) 
XX 6 


BRANN MAK ARN MAK MINYFORDD MAK 
**IM3 59 (12:1  12:4) 
IM3 60 
IM3 61 


BURCH, SONNY 

IM3 82-FB 
**{IM3 73} 
IM3 74 


CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 

CA '01-FB (late summer/44) 
** IM3 73-FB 17:4  17:6 Cap states it to be in 44 when he was spending some time in France with a Mobile Maintenance Company. Hence well enough after D-Day for there to be a push into France. 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 

. . . 

A 216 
**IM3 30-FB (10:7 - 11:2) The scene shows Cap giving Tony Stark training in hand-to-hand combat. This scene could go many places. Cap calls Tony an Avenger so it must occur after A 216 where Cap learns Tony is Iron Man. I figure Cap would lose no time in giving Tony the training, especially after coming off an adventure where they had to fight without their gadgets; hence the placement right after A 216. 
A 217 

. . . 

CA3 44 
*IM3 39 Should read IM3 39-FB (5:1  22:4 precedes IM3 37 pg 1, and continues from IM3 37-FB to explain what brought us to the IM3 37 pg 1 situation) 
TB 50 

. . . 

A3 76 
**IM3 73 
IM3 75 


CONRAD, STU 

**IM3 73 
IM3 74 
IM3 75 
IM3 76 
IM3 77 
**IM3 78 
IM3 79 


CRIMSON DYNAMO III/ALEX NEVSKY ("NIVEN") 

IM 21 
*IM 22 (to 17:1) split to accomodate IM3 76 FB 
**IM3 76-FB 10:2 shows video of Iron Man using a portable cutting laser on Crimson Dynamo 
*IM 22 17:2 Crimson Dynamo disoriented from laser, easy target for Iron Mans continued assault 
A 130 


DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK 

M/K 15 
*IM3 38 should read IM3 38-FB (5:1 - 22:6 precedes IM3 37 pg 1, continues from IM3 37-FB to explain what brought us to the IM3 37 pg 1 situation) 
DD2 20/2 


*DOCTOR POWER/DR. MAXIMUS POWER 

This whole entry should be removed. Doctor Power is listed under POWER, DR. MAX (including IM3 33) 
*IM3 33 


DONOHUE, TREVOR 

**IM3 39-FB-FB (14:3) Trevor Donohue socializing with Tiberius Stones father 
IM3 26-BTS 
IM3 28-BTS 
*{IM3 29} should read IM3 29-FB ( 4:1  18:4 precedes pg 1, explaining how the opening situation came to be) 
*IM3 37-BTS recommended to remove under current definition. Tony thinks to himself that he suspects Donohue of hiring Whiplash to kill Iron Man (19:3). No effect on the story. 
*IM3 38 should read IM3 38-FB (5:1 - 22:6 precedes IM3 37 pg 1, continues from IM3 37-FB to explain what brought us to the IM3 37 pg 1 situation) 
*IM3 39 Should read IM3 39-FB (5:1  22:4 precedes IM3 37 pg 1, and continues from IM3 37-FB and IM3 38-FB to explain what brought us to the IM3 37 pg 1 situation ) 
**IM3 45-FB (19:4 - 19:6) Donohue makes his holowill 
*IM3 42-BTS again recommended to remove under current definition. (17:3) Jocasta tells Tony that Donohue has died. No effect on the story. 


FRIDAY II 

IM3 53 
IM3 54 
**IM3 55 (3:5, 4:2) 
IM3 56 


FUJIKAWA, RUMIKO 

IM3 28 
*IM3 29 should read IM3 29-FB ( 4:1  18:4 precedes pg 1, explaining how the opening situation came to be 
IM3 30 

. . . 

IM3 36-FB 
*IM3 37 should read IM3 37-FB (3:1 - 22:5 precedes pg 1, starting to explain what brought us to the pg 1 situation) 
*IM3 38 should read IM3 38-FB (5:1 - 22:6 precedes IM3 37 pg 1, continues from IM3 37-FB to explain what brought us to the IM3 37 pg 1 situation) 
IM3 40 
. . . 
IM '01/2 
**IM3 55/2 
IM3 56 

. . . 

IM3 75 
**IM3 76 
IM3 77 


GHOST 

IM3 42 
*IM3 43-BTS should read IM3 43-VO (no BTS). The Ghosts voice (as the Mad Bomber) is heard (1:2) 
IM3 44 


GOLDEN-BLADE 

** IM3 24-FB 20:2 - 21:2 first sees Sappers falling ship 
** IM3 25-FB 15:4 next moment, has turned towards the falling ship (these are almost simultaneous) 
MSM 13 


GREEN GOBLIN/NORMAN OSBORN JR. 

PPSM2 25 
*IM3 37 should read IM3 37-FB (3:1 - 22:5 precedes pg 1, starting to explain what brought us to the pg 1 situation) 
TW 13 


HANRAHAN, GORDON 

*IM3 1 I cannot refute his appearance as I do not know who he is, but he is not named in IM3 1 and as he has no other appearances I dont understand how he was identified. 


HOGAN, HAROLD J. "HAPPY" 

TOS 45 
**IM3 4 5:2 early in relationship with Pepper  I fell for her right off. Scene of Pepper working with Happy looking on 
**IM3 23 (9:5) early in relationship with Pepper; generic shot of them at the office 
TOS 46-FB 

. . . 

IM3 28 
*IM3 29 should read IM3 29-FB ( 4:1  18:4 precedes pg 1, explaining how the opening situation came to be 
*IM3 37 should read IM3 37-FB (3:1 - 22:5 precedes pg 1, starting to explain what brought us to the pg 1 situation) 
*IM3 38 should read IM3 38-FB (5:1 - 22:6 precedes IM3 37 pg 1, continues from IM3 37-FB to explain what brought us to the IM3 37 pg 1 situation) 
*IM3 39 Should read IM3 39-FB (5:1  22:4 precedes IM3 37 pg 1, and continues from IM3 37-FB and IM3 38-FB to explain what brought us to the IM3 37 pg 1 situation ) 
IM3 41 

. . . 

IM3 42 
**IM3 45 
IM3 46 

. . . 

IM3 54 
**IM3 55 
**IM3 55/2 
IM3 56 


HOGAN, VIRGINIA "PEPPER" POTTS 

TOS 45 
**IM3 4 (5:2) early in relationship with Happy  I fell for her right off. Scene of Pepper working with Happy looking on 
**IM3 23 (9:5) early in relationship with Happy; generic shot of them at the office 
TOS 46-FB 

. . . 

FF3 15 Pepper informs Tony he has an incoming call 
**IM3 14-FB (2/3:3) Pepper looks on as Tony receives the message from Callie Yeager re Ronan & FF 
IM3 15 

. . . 

IM3 28 
*IM3 29 should read IM3 29-FB ( 4:1  18:4 precedes pg 1, explaining how the opening situation came to be) 
IM3 36-FB 
*IM3 37 should read IM3 37-FB (3:1 - 22:5 precedes pg 1, starting to explain what brought us to the pg 1 situation) 
*IM3 38 should read IM3 38-FB (5:1 - 22:6 precedes IM3 37 pg 1, continues from IM3 37-FB to explain what brought us to the IM3 37 pg 1 situation) 
*IM3 39 Should read IM3 39-FB (5:1  22:4 precedes IM3 37 pg 1, and continues from IM3 37-FB and IM3 38-FB to explain what brought us to the IM3 37 pg 1 situation ) 
IM3 41 

. . . 

IM3 52-FB 
**IM3 52 6:1, 7:2 
IM3 53 
IM3 54 
**IM3 55 
**IM3 55/2 
IM3 56 


HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM 

S&L 2 
*IM3 1-BTS suggested removal. Cannot be said to affect the story. In response to why Torch and Thing did not attend the Stark Tower party, Reed says, ...Ben...muttered something about how hed rather have painful eye surgery. And Johnny has a date  (10:7) 
TB 11 

Ditto for THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM 
S&L 2 
*IM3 1-BTS suggested removal 
A3 1 

There are two other iffy (by current definition) BTS references from IM3 1. (11:7) Tony is thinking about Congratulatory telegrams from those that couldnt make it --- Bethany Cabe, Mrs. Arbogast, Jerry Seinfeld... 


ARBOGAST, BAMBI 
IM 329-BTS 
*IM3 1-BTS suggested removal 
HFH 8 

CABE, BETHANY 
IM 329 
*IM3 1-BTS suggested removal 


IRON MAN/TONY STARK 
The italicized parts are from post http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2089 
except for the IM 313-FB which is from post http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2229 
new additions are bolded 

*A:C-FB splitting current entry. (15:5/1) Tony on Tricycle 
**IM 285-FB (11:2-13:5 ) Tony remembers, as a small child, seeing his father drinking excessively 
**IM 286-FB (18:2  20:7) 5 yrs old, first erector set; learning life lessons from father; deteriorating homelife due to fathers drinking 
**IM 313-FB (4:1  6:3) New Years prior to Tony going to boarding school. 
**IM 287-FB (13:6/2  14:6) Tony at 7 yrs; father decides to put him in boarding school; (15:1-16:1) early days at school; (16:2) Tony is 13, discovers Mallory and chivalry 
*A:C-FB splitting current entry. (15:5/3) Tonys first girlfriend; ~14 yrs? 
*IM3 37-FB should read IM3 37-FB-FB (6:2  6:5) Ty Stone and Tony, teens at school 
IM 28-FB (Tony is 17) 
**IM3 37-FB-FB (7:1) Ty Stone and Tony, young men 
**IM3 39-FB-FB (15:3) Tony being lectured to by his father 
*IM 318-FB splitting current entry (3:1 - 5:4) early in university (advanced physics) 
**IM 288/2-FB (2:1-2:6) valedictorian and post school playboy indulgence IM:IA 1-FB (4:1  5:3) developed fuel formula for his father; still indulging 
*IM3 19-FB repositioned from after the AOI-FB. Tonys father is still alive when he was seeing Sunset Bain. (Tony didnt want him to find out he was dating an older woman). As Tonys parents died when he was still in school, this must be his last year of MIT post grad studies. 
**IM3 29-FB-FB (16:3) Jarvis tells Tony Stark his parents have died 
**IM3 40-FB (7:2  7:3) later same day, Tony still taking it in 
*A:C- FB splitting current entry (6:2) next day; Tony and Jarvis talked all night. Scene shows Jarvis making Howard Starks favourite meal for Tony. 
*IM 318-FB splitting current entry (12  13:6) parents funeral 
**IM 288/2-FB (3:2-4:4) inquest into death of his parents; begins business life 
AOI-FB head of Stark Industries; meets Pepper Potts 

. . . 

TOS 45 
**IM3 23-FB (9:5) very soon after Pepper and Happy meet; generic shot of all three at the office 
TOS 46-FB 

. . . 

IM 21 (13 - 20) 
*IM 22 (to 17:1) split to accomodate IM3 76-FB 
**IM3 76-FB 10:2 video of Iron Man using a portable cutting laser on Crimson Dynamo 
*IM 22 17:2 Crimson Dynamo disoriented from laser, easy target for Iron Mans continued assault 
SS 17 

. . . 

A 162 
**IM3 19-FB (12:5) Iron mans initial examination and opinion of Jocasta 
GZILL 3 

. . . 

A 216 
**IM3 30-FB (10:7 - 11:2) shows Cap giving Tony Stark training in hand-to-hand combat. This scene could go many places. Cap calls Tony an Avenger so it must occur after A 216 where Cap learns Tony is Iron Man. I figure Cap would lose no time in giving Tony the training, especially after coming off an adventure where they had to fight without their gadgets; hence the placement right after A 216. 
IM 155 

. . . 

IM 174 
** IM3 40-FB (8:2-8:3) Tony drunk in street following Stane takeover 
IM 176 

. . . 

IM 243 
** IM3 40-FB (9:2-9:3) After being shot by Kathy dare, Tony is told by his doctor he will never walk again 
IM 244 

. . . 
IM3 12 
**IM3 13-FB-OP (5:2) Dr. Kincaid goes over Dr. Pym's medical findings with Tony 
IM3 13 
TB 0 
A '99 
A3 13 
*FF3 15 (1-5:6) splitting current entry to accommodate flashback scenes. Tony is called to take priority message 
**IM3 14-FB (2/3:3) hears mayday message 
*FF3 15 (5:7) enters armour lab 
**IM3 14-FB (2/3:4) approaches armour 
*FF3 15 (5:8-6:1) dons armour 
**IM3 14-FB (2/3:5-2/3:6) picks up and adds Reeds Foldspace Transceptor Module to armour 
*FF3 15 (15 -21:1) transports to moon, engages FF 
**IM3 14-FB (3:1) Iron Man engaged by whole FF team, plus Charlotte Jones 
*FF3 15 (21:2 -22:4) working together 
IM3 14 
IM3 15-FB 

. . . 

IM3 28 
**IM3 29-FB ( 4:1  18:4 precede pg 1, explaining how the opening situation came to be) 
IM3 29 
NW2 9-FB 

. . . 

IM3 36 
IM3 37-FB 
IM3 38-FB 
*IM3 37-FB redundant listing; IM3 37 3:1 to end of book is one continuous Flashback 
*IM3 38-FB redundant listing; IM3 38 5:1 to end of book is one continuous Flashback following directly from the IM3 37-FB 
IM3 39-FB 
IM3 40-FB 
IM3 37 
IM3 38 
IM3 39 
IM3 40 
IM3 41 

. . . 

IM3 54 
**IM3 55 
**IM3 55/2 
IM3 56 

. . . 

PUN6 37 
**IM3 73 
IM3 74 


IRON MAN ARMOR 

IM3 26 
IM3 27 
IM3 28 
**IM3 29-FB ( 4:1  9:7 ) 
**IM3 47-FB ( 13:1-14:5 ) Jocasta states  back when your armor first gained sentience, there was a brief period when he and I were...alone. There is virtually no time that Tony is not with the armor. However before Tony goes with the armor to meet Trevor Donohue, he obviously spent some time cleaning up and getting dressed (casuals to suit and tie). Not a lot of time by human standards but given the speed of computers, a lot could have exchanged between Jocasta and the armor is that time space. 
**IM3 29-FB ( 10:1  18:4 ) 
**IM3 29 
**IM3 30 
**IM3 46 
**IM3 47 
**IM3 48 


JARVIS, EDWIN 

**IM3 29-FB-FB (16:3) Jarvis tells Tony Stark his parents have died 
**IM3 40-FB (7:2  7:3) later same day, Tony still taking it in 
A:C-FB (6:2) next day; Tony and Jarvis talked all night. Scene shows Jarvis making Howard Starks favourite meal for Tony. 
IM:IA 1-FB 
A 280-FB 

. . . 

ASM 431 
**IM3 1 (9:2) unnamed, greeting guests at Stark Tower party 
A3 1 


JOCASTA 

A 162 
**IM3 19-FB (12:5) Tony Stark' s initial examination and opinion of Jocasta. 
A 170 

. . . 

IM3 28 
**IM3 47-FB ( 13:1-14:5 ) see note for IRON MAN ARMOR above 
*IM3 29 should read IM3 29-FB ( 4:1  18:4 precede pg 1, explaining how the opening situation came to be) 
IM3 31 
**IM3 33 
IM3 37 should read IM3 37-FB (3:1 - 22:5 precede pg 1, explaining how the opening situation came to be 
IM3 41 


*KRAKKAK should be spelled KRAKKAN (IM3 22 17:5) 
IM3 22-FB 


KINCAID, DR. JANE FOSTER 

IM3 12 
**IM3 13-FB (5:2) Dr. Kincaid goes over Dr. Pym's medical findings with Tony 
T2 8 


MANDARIN 

IM3 10 
**IM3 53 Mandarins Hands 
**IM3 54 Mandarins Hands 


PO II 

*IM3 54-FB should be removed. PO II is not in the flashback 
*{IM3 53-FB} should be removed. PO II is not in the flashback 
IM3 53 
IM3 54 
**IM3 55 
IM3 65-BTS 


*RIDANOVICH, MILOS (should read RADANOVICH, 

IM3 50 (8:3, 10:1 et al.) 
IM3 50-FB 
IM3 50 


RADIOACTIVE MAN/DR. CHEN LU 

TB '97-FB 
*IM3 37 should read IM3 37-FB (3:1 - 22:5 precedes pg 1, starting to explain what brought us to the pg 1 situation) 
*IM3 38 should read IM3 38-FB (5:1 - 22:6 precedes IM3 37 pg 1, continues from IM3 37-FB to explain what brought us to the IM3 37 pg 1 situation) 
IM3 40 


SCARLOTTI, MICHAEL JR. 

ELEK 5 
ELEK 6 
*IM3 29 should read IM3 29-FB ( 4:1  18:4 precede pg 1, explaining how the opening situation came to be) 


SCARLOTTI, TRUDI 

ELEK 5 
ELEK 6 
ELEK 7 
*IM3 29 should read IM3 29-FB ( 4:1  18:4 precede pg 1, explaining how the opening situation came to be) 


STEVENS, MILO 

*IM3 37 should read IM3 37-FB (3:1 - 22:5 precedes pg 1, starting to explain what brought us to the pg 1 situation) 
*IM3 38 should read IM3 38-FB (5:1 - 22:6 precedes IM3 37 pg 1, continues from IM3 37-FB to explain what brought us to the IM3 37 pg 1 situation) 


STARK, HOWARD 

CA@ 9/2-FB 
NW 4-FB 
X:HC 4-FB 
CV 2-FB 
**IM 285-FB (11:2-13:5) Tony remembers, as a child, seeing his father drinking excessively (as per previous post http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2089) 
**IM 286-FB (18:2 -20:7) Howard gives life lessons to Tony (Tony is 5-6 yrs old); Howard drinking and dancing with Maria (as per previous post http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2089) 
**IM 313-FB (4:1  6:3) Howard still trying to make a man of his sissy son. (In the following IM 287-FB, he has given up and has decided to send Tony to boarding school) (as per previous post http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2229) 
**IM 287-FB (13:6/2  14:6) Howard decides to put Tony in boarding school (Tony is 7 yrs old) (as per previous post http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2089) 
{IM 28-FB} 
**IM3 39-FB-FB (15:2) Howard reads about competitors bankruptcy ,(15:3) Howard lectures Tony 
IM:IA 1-FB 


STONE, TIBERIUS 

*IM3 37-FB splitting current entry and should read IM3 37-FB-FB; (6:2 - 7:4) schooldays with Tony;growing up together 
*IM3 39-FB should read IM3 39-FB-FB (16:3) taught the business by Trevor Donohue after parents died 
*IM3 37-FB split from current entry and should read IM3 37-FB-FB; (7:5) Ty leaves for Europe 
*IM3 37 should read IM3 37-FB (3:1 - 22:5 precedes pg 1, starting to explain what brought us to the pg 1 situation) 
*IM3 38 should read IM3 38-FB (5:1 - 22:6 precedes IM3 37 pg 1, continues from IM3 37-FB to explain what brought us to the IM3 37 pg 1 situation) 
*IM3 39 Should read IM3 39-FB (5:1  22:4 precedes IM3 37 pg 1, and continues from IM3 37-FB and IM3 38-FB to explain what brought us to the IM3 37 pg 1 situation ) 
*IM3 40 should read IM3 40-FB (1:1  4:4 precedes IM3 37 pg 1, continues the flashback from IM3 37, IM3 38 and IM3 39 explaining what brought us to the IM3 37 pg 1 situation) 
IM3 37-BTS attacking via Dreamvision 
IM3 38-BTS attacking via Dreamvision 
IM3 39-BTS attacking via Dreamvision 
IM3 40 
IM3 41 


TEMUGIN 

IM3 54 
**IM3 55 
IM3 65-BTS 


TILBY, TRISH/PATRICIA TILBERT 

X 111 
*IM3 37 should read IM3 37-FB (3:1 - 22:5 precedes pg 1, starting to explain what brought us to the pg 1 situation) 
*IM3 38 should read IM3 38-FB (5:1 - 22:6 precedes IM3 37 pg 1, continues from IM3 37-FB to explain what brought us to the IM3 37 pg 1 situation) 
XX 5 


VITRIOL/ISHTAR/LEYLA 

**IM3 81-FB 4:1 - 4:5 Leyla's death on her 22nd birthday 
IM3 79 
IM3 80 
IM3 81 
IM3 82 


WALDERS, BEATRICE 

*IM3 39 Should read IM3 39-FB (5:1  22:4 precedes IM3 37 pg 1, and continues from IM3 37-FB and IM3 38-FB to explain what brought us to the IM3 37 pg 1 situation ) 
IM3 40 


WARBIRD/CAROL SUSAN JANE DANVERS 

W2 138 
*IM3 15-BTS suggested removal. No impact on story. (7:8) We hear Carols answering machine: Hi, this is Carol Danvers! Im off selling the great American Novel. So leave a message at the beep! 
A3 16 

. . . 

A3 40 
*IM3 39 Should read IM3 39-FB (5:1  22:4 precedes IM3 37 pg 1, and continues from IM3 37-FB and IM3 38-FB to explain what brought us to the IM3 37 pg 1 situation ) 
IA 1 


WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM 

USA2 3 
*IM3 37 should read IM3 37-FB (3:1 - 22:5 precedes pg 1, starting to explain what brought us to the pg 1 situation) 
IA 1 


YEAGER, CALLIE 

*FF3 15 (1-5:6) splitting current entry. Prior to Callies call. 
**IM3 14-FB (2/3:3) Callies message 
*FF3 15 (5:7-22) after call 
IM3 14 
IM3 15-FB 


YELLOWJACKET III/HENRY "HANK" PYM II 

A3 40 
*IM3 37 should read IM3 37-FB (3:1 - 22:5 precede pg 1, explaining how the opening situation came to be 
IM3 43

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Mar 2007 07:04 am    
By Arthur
Director

Placement question for the World war II experts... 

IM3 73 15:5 shows a WW II flashback of Captain America and Bucky visiting a defense plant in Texas. A sign says " North American Aviation welcomes Captain America & Bucky!" 

no dialogue. Cap was commenting on the 'Riveting Rosies' ... women working on the assembly line.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Mar 2007 11:11 pm    
By Col_Fury

Arthur wrote: 
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 

CA '01-FB (late summer/44) 
** IM3 73-FB 17:4  17:6 Cap states it to be in 44 when he was spending some time in France with a Mobile Maintenance Company. Hence well enough after D-Day for there to be a push into France. 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 

... 

IM3 73 15:5 shows a WW II flashback of Captain America and Bucky visiting a defense plant in Texas. A sign says " North American Aviation welcomes Captain America & Bucky!" 

no dialogue. Cap was commenting on the 'Riveting Rosies' ... women working on the assembly line. 

Thanks for pointing this out! 

I agree with your placement for the Panzer tank incident, but I'll suggest a placement amidst some recent FlashBacks that haven't made it in yet. 

I have the Riveting Rosies FlashBack later in '44, because Cap mentioned they wanted to get their husbands and sons home quicker.(this makes me think American troops have already seen action) Also, Cap was pretty busy from July to September, and again from November through December... so I have it in October. 


CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
... 
CA '01-FB (08/44) 
TOS 75/2-FB 
CA5 25 (3)-FB 
TOS 77/2 (3-5)-FB 
CA5 3 (16-18:1)-FB (08/44) 
CA5 25 (7:2-7:3)-FB 
TOS 77/2 (6-10:6)-FB 
CA5 3 (18:2)-FB 
CA: DMR 2-FB 
*IM3 73 (16:4-16:6)-FB (1944) 
CA5 12 (14-15)-FB, (18-19)-FB (09/44) 
CA5 15-FB 
*IM3 73 (14:5)-FB (1944) 
CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
WX2 14-FB (1944) 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 
... 

BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN BUCKY BARNES 
... 
CA '01-FB (08/44) 
CA5 25 (3)-FB 
CA5 3-FB (08/44) 
CA5 12 (14-15)-FB, (18-19)-FB (09/44) 
CA5 15-FB 
*IM3 73 (14:5)-FB (1944) 
CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 
... 

I think the difference between our page/panel ranges is I didn't count the recap page.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Posted: 29 Mar 2007 05:16 am    Post subject: Hm, mistake in Iron Man and Happy Hogan's chronologies
By Adamant

Tales of Suspense 66 is said to occur between the pages of Avengers 16. Now, Avengers 16 is split into two parts, the first dealing with the end of the Masters of Evil, the second dealing with how "The Old Order Changeth". 

However, in Tales of Suspense 66, Happy quits his job as Stark's chaffeur in the beginning of the story, and is nowhere to be found for the rest of it. This leads diectly into ToS 67, where Tony goes looking for him. But in th second part of Avengers 16, Happy appears as Stark's chaffeur, driving him and the Scarlet Witch to the Avenger's Mansion. ToS 66 cannot possibly occur until after this story.

			*	*	*

Posted: 29 Mar 2007 06:15 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

That's right. In the Official Index to the Avengers, Vol. 2 #1, Happy is noted as appearing in A 16 between TOS 65 and 66, and Iron Man as appearing in A 15-16 between TOS 65 and 66.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Posted: 02 Mar 2007 08:04 am    Post subject: Hellstorm: Son of Satan 1-5 [MAX]
By Frederic Krier

Hellstorm: Son of Satan 1 
December 2006 

Equinox: Part One 
W: Alexander Irvine, P: Russ Braun, I: Klaus Janson 

Appearances: Hellstorm/Daimon Hellstrom, his father, an unnamed doctor [revealed as Dr. Peterson in issue 2], Dumah, Isis [in FB], Horus [in FB], Set[h] [in FB], unidentified boy, unidentified abusive father [in shadows], unidentified lower demons, unidentified bystanders, unidentified ancient Egyptians [in FB]. 

Pg. 1, p1-3: One day. Nighttime. New Orleans, not too long after Katrina hit the city [in the first panel, a part of the city stills seems to be flooded]. One man gets pursued by lower demons in police uniforms. 
Pg. 1, p4: Daimon Hellstrom dreams of a hawk being torn apart by demons. 
Pg. 2, p5-pg. 2: The demons in police uniforms rip the unidentified man to pieces. They just keep his lower left leg. 
Pg. 3, p1: Daimon dreams of a caduceus. 
Pg. 3, p2-pg.4: One day. Daimon Hellstrom sits in a bar in New Orleans and is approached by somebody he identifies as a doctor, because of his previous dream. 
Pg.5-pg.6, p3: FB to [more than two weeks ago] The doctor tells Daimon of a night, where policemen [presumably the demons from earlier on] rushed into the hospital with a woman about to deliver. After the delivery, the doctor confronts the policemen for the lateness they brought her in. The doctor is then arrested, while the woman and the baby mysteriously disappear. After eight hours, the police lets him go and he decides to find the woman. 
Pg.6, p4-pg.7, p1: FB. Two weeks later. The doctor finally finds the woman and finds her rushing to the river with a five-year old boy, who transforms into a hawk. 
Pg. 7, p2-pg.9, p1: Daimon leaves the bar and walks through the streets of New Orleans, pondering the probable involvement of his father. 
Pg.9, p2-4: One day. A small boy finds a caterpillar in the grass, but is then over-shadowed by his abusive father. 
Pg.9, p5: Presumably symbolic: A young, naked Daimon stands in the shadow of his father. 
Pg.9, p6: Daimon finds the remains of the guy ripped apart on pg.1-2. 
Pg.10-11: One day. Nighttime (possibly still the same night). Daimon sits in a park, and interrupts two muggers that just killed an unidentified man. They turn out to be demons. Daimon kills one of them with his suddenly manifesting trident, the other one flees. 
Pg.12-17: One day. Daytime. Daimon intends to visit the doctor, but only finds another demon in police uniform feasting on the doctor's remains. After a fight, in which the demon, who is identified as Dumah, the demon of silence, loses an arm, it reveals the women's identity as Isis. 
Pg.18: FB to ancient Egypt. As Osiris' leaden sarcophagus swims in the sea, Egypt sinks into Chaos. 
Pg.19, p1: FB to a Katrina-devastated New Orleans. 
Pg.19, p2: FB to the pregnant Isis about to deliver. 
Pg.19, p3: FB to Isis, the goddess of sex and magic getting empregnated by the dead Osiris. 
Pg.20, p1: FB to ancient Egypt. Horus, the son of Osiris and Isis, (with hawk head) fights Set (with serpent head) 
Pg.20, p2: FB to ancient Egypt. Set cuts Osiris' body to pieces and throws them into the Nile. 
Pg.21: FB to pg.7, p1. Isis releases Horus in hawk form. 
Pg.22: Daimon kills the demon, who materializes in front of Daimon's father. 

Hellstorm: Son of Satan 2 
January 2007 

Equinox: Part 2 
W: Alexander Irvine, P: Russ Braun, I: Klaus Janson 

Appearances: Hellstorm/Daimon Hellstrom, his father, Isis, Horus, Adonis [in FB], Baldur/Balder [in FB, shadow only], Tammuz [in FB], Osiris [in FB], Jesus of Nazareth [in FB], unidentified lower demons, unidentified bystanders. 

Pg.1-3: One day. After a funeral ceremony, a group of demons, who had taken the forms of the coffin bearers, sew off the corpse's left arm, when they're attacked by Daimon, who lets one demon get away with the arm. 
Pg.4-5, p3: One day. Daimon sits in a coffeehouse, when he receives a call from his father on the mobile. His father, who watches at different regions of hell, one greek, one christian, one egyptian and one chinese in appearance, tells him he'll be glad to see Osiris leave. 
Pg.5, p4-Pg.6,p4: One day. Daimon walks the streets of New Orleans, and spots two demons disguised as humans, then gets another call from his father. 
Pg.6, p5-7: Daimon ponders his father's motivations, while the artist shows us a dead Osiris, Osiris rising, and a tree. 
Pg.7: One day. Nighttime. Daimon spots some crocodiles. He's reminded of the Egyptian god Apep who had crocodile form and caused hurricanes. 
Pg.8-11: One day. Presumably later that night. Two days until Equinox [9.20.2005] Daimon finds Isis in a Catholic church. The doctor's name is revealed as Peterson His father warns him of girls like that by SMS. A hawk flies in, and transforms into Horus (in boy-form). He reveals his father is returning, but Daimon believes that's not necessarily good news. 
Pg.12-13 (2 page-spread) Daimon proceeds to tell of a place in hell where the archetypes walk (This is illustrated p1 by the ferryman, a lake of fire and the three-headed dog). Osiris represents the god who dies. FB to the deaths of Adonis, Baldur [sic], Tammuz, Osiris and Jesus Christ (p5-9 in the spread). p10: Meanwhile his father watches. p11: Daimon tells of the war between the god who dies and his father. 
Pg.14: Isis and Horus menace Daimon not to interfere with Osiris' resurrection. Daimon leaves. 
Pg.15: One day. Nighttime (the following night?). While Daimon sleeps, he sees Osiris' sarcophagus crossing the ocean, finally stranding beneath a tree, next to which a hut is built (while New Orleans rises in the background). 
Pg.16-22: Later that night. Full moon. Daimon wakes up and finds Horus in hawk form waiting outside his window. Horus transforms into a boy and tells Daimon that he found him by using his eye, the moon. They are attacked by a winged demon. Horus is hurt, but Daimon kills the demon. Daimon takes Horus to his mother, who is watching over the corpse of Osiris at a local graveyard. She tells Daimon that she's been looking for Osiris' remains for 5000 years and has assembled 13 pieces so far, but misses one. Daimon leaves, and realizes that the missing part is Osiris' penis. He goes to the derelict looking hut he saw in his dream. At that moment, he receives yet another call from his father. 

Hellstorm: Son of Satan 3 
February 2007 

Equinox: Part 3 
W: Alexander Irvine, P: Russ Braun, I: Klaus Janson 

Appearances: Hellstorm/Daimon Hellstrom, his father, Osiris, the Ferryman [Charon], Anubis, Thoth, Ammitu, Spot. 

Pg.1-7: One day. One phonecall after the end of issue 2. Daimon enters the hut, but gets attacked by an armada of lower demons. He manages to escape to the cellar which he magically seals of from the demons. There he founds the body of a houngan, who used to live in the hut. Daimon opens a sealed door and finds steps, leading him into the depths, with Egyptian hieroglyphs inscribed all over the walls. 
Pg.8: Meanwhile, in hell, Osiris, who knows he is going to be resurrected, fights against demon armies, while Daimon's father watches the proceedings, with a shadow strangely ressembling the jackal god Anubis showing besides him. 
Pg.9-23: Daimon continues going down every possible stairway to every possible hell. At the bottom, he is greeted by the ferryman, who agrees to take him over the river. Daimon enters an Egyptian temple, passes some hooded figures, one looking like a man with a lion head, and finally arrives before Anubis, Thoth and Ammatu, the Eater of the Dead. Anubis and Thoth tell Daimon about the scales, on which a soul is weighed against a feather. Dad calls again, and reminds Daimon not to trust jackals. At that moment, Spot, a mixture of ape and wolf and servant to Anubis brings a jar containing the penis of Osiris. Not taking yet another phone call from his father, Daimon proceeds to rip out his heart from his chest, preferring it to his soul, much to the approval of his father, who watches the proceedings from hell. Anubis proclaims a perfect balance between the jar and the heart. Daimon lifts the jar and is then swallowed by Ammatu, who has to take the final decision. 

Hellstorm: Son of Satan 4 
March 2007 

Equinox: Part Four 
W: Alexander Irvine, P: Russ Braun, I: Klaus Janson 

Appearances: Hellstorm/Daimon Hellstrom, his father, Anubis, Thoth, Osiris, Victoria Wingate Hellstrom [in FB], Hellcat/Patsy Walker [in FB], unidentified boy, Isis, Horus, Dumah, unidentified medical staff [in FB], various unidentified bystanders 

Pg.1: One day. Immediately following issue 3. Daimon is floating in a void with the jar containing the penis of Osiris, as lots of floating heads appear (memories or other souls absorbed by the Eater of the Dead?). 
Pg.2, p1-2: FB to young Daimon receiving an ankh from his mother [FB to Marvel Spotlight 13  see comments]. His father watches over the scene. 
Pg.2, p3-5: Daimon remembers Patsy Walker, both in her Hellcat costume and without, as well as her dead body [from Hellstorm 15]. 
Pg.2, p6: Daimon pictures his father, and remembers how he tried to be true to his ancestry, despite it being lies. 
Pg.3-8,p4: Ammatu spits Daimon out, who lands in the cellar of the hut where he was before. After another phone call from Dad, who tells him he's always been his favorite, Daimon finds the sewn-together corpse of Osiris (along with other dismembered corpses). 
Pg.8,p5: FB to Thoth sewing together the body parts of Osiris 
Pg.9-13,p4: Daimon finds a needle, and begins sewing Osiris' penis on to the rest of his body. He gets a phonecall from Isis, who gives him one hour before returning the body of her husband. Daimon tells the dead Osiris that he once fought against Anubis and about his relationship with his father, who watches the scene from hell. 
Pg.13,p4-5: FB to the first meeting with his father, which did not go well (symbolized by a falling ankh) [FB to Marvel Spotlight 13  see comments]. 
Pg.14-15,p3: Daimon continues his job, while Isis crosses a still flooded part of New Orleans on a boat. Around the hut, plants begin to grow. 
Pg.15,p4: One day. The small boy from issue 1 is still trying to grab a caterpillar. 
Pg.15,p5: Isis summons a vision of Daimon and Osiris, and knows where to find them. 
Pg.16,p1-3: In hell, Dumah and Satan watch Daimon sewing together Osiris . Satan tells Dumah not to intervene. 
Pg.16,p4-5: Daimon has finished sewing the penis on Osiris' corpse. 
Pg.17: A vision of Osiris as the crucified Jesus Christ, with an arrow sticking out of his chest and a dead bull lying to his feet. 
Pg.18-22: The scene from pg. 17 materializes as a psychoactive tattoo on Daimon's back. As Isis and Horus (in hawk, then in boy form) finally reach the hut, Osiris awakens. Plants start growing in the surroundings, and the caterpillar finally grabbed by the small boy morphs into a butterfly. Daimon then slits Osiris' throat with a knife. Dad is not happy. 

Hellstorm: Son of Satan 5 
April 2007 

Equinox: Conclusion 
W: Alexander Irvine, P: Russ Braun, I: Klaus Janson 

Appearances: Hellstorm/Daimon Hellstrom, his father, Dumah, Osiris, Isis, Horus, Anubis, Thoth, Spot, various unidentified lower demons, various unidentified bank employees, various unidentified bystanders 
Pg.1-15: One day. Immediately following issue 4. Daimon, who realizes it was Anubis, who pulled the strings in the background, is confronted by Isis and Horus, who now appears as a full-grown man with a hawk head [looking a bit like the Horus in Marvel: The End]. The various body parts lying around the room transform to living demons, who start fighting Daimon, whom they tell he's fired (Daimon replies: Tell the old man I quit). At first, the battle starts to look favorable to the demons, but Isis summons some foul-mouthed giant scorpions, who turn the tide of the battle. After all demons are killed, Ammatu suddenly appears and swallows Daimon and the corpse of Isiris. 
Pg.16: FBs to Isis looking for pieces of Osiris in the Nile in ancient Egypt, in Arab dominated Egypt, during Napoleon's expedition and in modern times. 
Pg.17, p1-3: Anubis holds the feather, while we see the sarcophagus of Osiris under the tree and a blind Isis holding the scales on which Osiris' corpse lies. Daimon realizes that Anubis used Osiris as a buffer against his father, and had Isis out of the way at the same time. 
Pg.17,p4-5: Ammatu spits out Daimon in front of Anubis, Thoth and Spot. 
Pg.18: Various symbolic panels: FB to Isis finding Osiris' head in the Nile, Satan smiling, an empty catholic church, Isis crossing a bridge in modern times 
Pg.19-21,p3: One day. Somewhere in the South of the U.S. Daimon hitchhikes his way to an unidentied city. He refuses to talk to his father and walks into a bank, asking to get a safe-deposit box. After refusing yet another phone call from Dad, he takes the jar containig Osiris' family jewels from his bag. 
Pg.21,p4: FB to Thoth getting ready to operate on Osiris again, while Daimon holds the jar. 
Pg.21,p5: Daimon puts the jar inside the box. 
Pg.21,p6: In hell, Satan's troops are attacked by Osiris. 
Pg.22-23: Daimon leaves the bank, throws the key to the deposit box into the gutter and finally answers Dad's phone calls. Daimon tells him they should talk again when he's not so busy anymore (in the background we see Satan fighting Osiris in hell). 

Comments: 
Obviously this does not find into continuity at all. If Osiris has been dead for five thousand years, waging war against Satan in hell, how he can have appeared as alive in issues of Thor, Infinity Gauntlet and Rise of Apocalypse etc.? Horus is just being (re-)born, but has fought against Seth five thousand years ago... Even the spellings are not in line with Marvel's own mythology  Set instead of Seth (though with the serpent head, he actually is more reminiscent of the hyborian Set than the humanoid god of Heliopolis), Baldur instead of Balder, who never struck me as a Jesus Christ figure in the MU, either. 

Daimon Hellstrom has a wide range of new powers: he's able to fly, he has psychoactive tattoos on his back, his trident seems to be psionic in nature, he can rip his heart from his own chest and survive; on the other hand, he's missing the pentagram-shaped birthmark on his chest, never once projects hellfire and apparently seems to work in the service of Satan (who's only called my father or the old man throughout the series). 
Still the FBs in issue 4 seem to indicate that the author believes this to be the same Daimon Hellstrom than the one who married Patsy Walker, fought Anubis before (in Son of Satan 7) and was given an ankh chain by his mother to protect him from the influence of his father. Still, there are several discrepancies to Marvel Spotlight 13 as well: in the original issue Daimon got a chain of ankhs from his mother, lying on her deathbed. No one else was present. Here he gets a chain with a single ankh, his mother is standing in front of him, there is some medical staff seen in the background. In Marvel Spotlight 13, Daimon, mind-controlled by Satan, decides not to take the ankhs on his trip to hell where he first confronts his father. In the new version, it appears that Daimon lets the ankh fall to the ground at the moment when he first sees Satan. 

So, to all odds and intents, this would appear to be an alternate version of Daimon Hellstrom, unless of course Marvel decides that this is somehow canon and references it in future stories or handbooks. Maybe we'll get a clear answer on its canonicity when the Magic handbook comes out...

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Mar 2007 11:01 am    
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/sigynthor.htm 
"Set instead of Seth (though with the serpent head, he actually is more reminiscent of the hyborian Set than the humanoid god of Heliopolis)," 
Actually, since Seth has been known to impersonate Set the Elder god who figures in the Hyborian Era stories, this is perfectly reasonable. Remember, P@2's Atlantis Attacks back-up shows that Seth usurped his worshippers from Set, so that he would continue the impersonation is quite appropriate. 

"Baldur instead of Balder, who never struck me as a Jesus Christ figure in the MU, either." 
you are forgetting the storyline from Thor I#277 or so where Balder was killed with mistletoe and went to Hel, and Odin brought him back to life. So what we have here is a common theme of resurrection. 

A previous adaptation of this myth appeared in Thor I#293-294, which seemed to indicate that it happened with a previous iteration of Asgard. Note that incarnations of Asgard have occured as far back as the Hyborian Age, and I recall in Savage Tales I#4 "Baldur" was invoked-so that would indicate that that iteration of Asgard had a deity called Baldur. 

Thor #274-275: shot with mistletoe arrow by Hoder, preserved in near-death state by Odin in order to forestall Ragnarok 
Thor #301-302: restored to life by Odin, renounced life of the warrior 

http://www.immortalthor.net/bio-balder.html 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/bloodstoneulysses.htm#deities

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Mar 2007 08:45 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Frederic. Canonicity does appear to be suspect. Anyone else have some thoughts?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Mar 2007 11:24 am    
By DonCampbell

I have to agree that this Hellstorm LS doesn't really fit into Earth-616 continuity. The main problem is that its central idea is that Isis has been looking for the remains of Osiris for 5,000 years (ever since he was chopped up by Seth). This is a DIRECT CONTRADICTION of the backstory of the Egyptian gods from their VERY FIRST Marvel appearance. It was in Thor #240 that the Asgardian spirit of wisdom Mimir showed Thor and his friends how Osiris had been chopped up by Seth but Isis had found the pieces and reassembled them so that Osiris WAS resurrected. It was after this that Horus, seeking vengeance for his father, battled Seth for centuries but neither side gained a lasting victory until the Romans conquered Egypt after Anthony and Cleopatra's forces were defeated at the battle of Actium in 31 BC. It was then that Seth, empowered somehow by the Roman victory, imprisoned Osiris, Isis and Horus within the mystical Pyramid of Kings which was then buried far beneath the earth. The trio remained trapped there for 2,000 years until it rose to the surface in Thor #239. 

Furthermore, in (almost) every modern-day Marvel story which features the Egyptian gods, Osiris has appeared as their king. This includes (in order) Thor #239-241, Marvel Two-In-One #23, Thor #301, Thor Annual #10, Thor #398-400, Infinity Gauntlet #2, and Thor2 #61 & 65. And in NONE of those stories was he shown to be trapped in the underworld fighting Satan. 

Since accepting this storyline as canon would mean throwing out ALL those previous stories, it seems clear that the Hellstorm LS CANNOT be considered "in continuity." Frankly, that's a bit of a shame since some of it isn't bad and the writer has made some attempts at continuity (like his reference to Daimon's previous encounter with Anubis). If only Alexander Irvine had chosen the "god who dies " from another pantheon, then it might have worked out okay. 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Mar 2007 04:32 pm    
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It can't be reconciled with previous stories about the Egyptian gods, I agree, although there IS some internal evidence to suggest that it was intended to be canon. 

Since it's a Max book, my view would be to leave it aside for now. No doubt the Handbook will mention Hellstorm or the Egyptian gods sooner or later - there's a Magic issue coming up, isn't there? - and that'll probably resolve the question definitively.
_________________
-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Posted: 04 Mar 2007 05:09 pm    Post subject: Runaways vol. 2 #19-24
By JD

RUNAWAYS v2 #19-24 
Writer : Brian K Vaughan 
Penciller : Mike Norton (#19-21) & Adrian Alphona (#22-24) 
Inker : Craig Yeung 
Published from August 2006 to February 2007 

Cast : 
- The Runaways : Nico Minoru/Sister Grimm, Molly Hayes/Bruiser/Princess Powerful, Chase Stein/Talkback, Victor Mancha/Victorious, Old Lace, Karolina Dean/Lucy in the Sky, Xavin, Leapfrog (+ Gertrude Yorkes/Arsenic 2 in FB, and a dead Alex Wilder in #24) 
- Lotus (formerly from the New Pride) 
- The 3 Gibborim (no individual identities) 
- Chester Biloxi & Cadie McDunnough, TV reporters, appear briefly in issue #21. Probably not worth an entry. 
- The Silver Bullet Gang (no individual names) show up in #22. 
- Iron Man and a team of capekillers sho up in #24 

RUNAWAYS v2 #19 : 

pages 1-3 : FB - "The La Brea Tar Pits Museum" (actually just outside of it), "months ago", night, 
The Runaways (Nico, Molly, Gertrude, Chase, Karolina & Old Lace) bury the Gert from the future. Dialogue indicates that they have not gone out searching for Victor yet, so this happens between pages 10 & 11 of RUN2 #2. 

pages 4-22 : One night. Everybody copes with Gertrude's death in his own way : Nico sleeps with Victor, Molly chats with the Leapfrog, and Karolina explains to Xavin why this is a big deal and s/he should stay on the team. They then go after a big monster who is smashing Starbucks (actually an antiques shop owner who got transformed by an old Pride artefact). Meanwhile, Chase & Old Lace, who left the team at the end of #18, are stalking Lotus. 

Notes : 
- This must happen very soon after the last issue, since the Runaways are still reacting to Gert's death. Probably the next night. 
- I've now started indexing the Leapfrog's appearances, since it's been clear for months that it's sentient, and it has a speaking role this issue. More on this further down. 
- We learn that (off-panel) Stretch has been commited in a mental hospital, and Hunter joined the Peace Corps. That's why Chase goes after Lotus. 

RUNAWAYS v2 #20 : 

Continued directly from last issue : 
The Runaways fight the big monster without much success. Meanwhile, Chase has Lotus guide him & Old Lace to the portal Geoffroy Wilder used to contact the Gibborim. They go into their world and Chase offers them a deal. 

Notes : Chase is 18 "today". So this is two weeks from issue #14. 

RUNAWAYS v2 #21 : 

Continued directly from last issue : 
The Runaways finally subdue the big monster by faking an appearance of the antiques shop's owner's dead wife, which convinces him to calm down a bit. 
Meanwhile, the Gibborim pose their conditions to Chase : they will resurrect Gert in exchange for the sacrifice of an innocent soul. He releases Lotus, and rejoins the Runaways with Old Lace. 

Notes : 
- Mention is made of the Civil War, which explains why no other superhero is around in LA to deal with the rampaging 20-stories high monster. 

[HERE happens CIVIL WAR: YOUNG AVENGERS & RUNAWAYS, where the Runaways meet the YA, fight SHIELD, and Victor is slightly damaged. Chase and Xavin are on the team, but not Gert.] 

RUNAWAYS v2 #22 : 

(One night) 
The Runaways capture some losers called the Silver Bullet Gang : cowboy werewolves. Did these guy really exist before ? Chase acts a bit intense, and Victor is still feeling the effects of his recent injuries (in CW:YA&R). 
They go back to their home base, but Chase & Old Lace take a separate way : they actually go meet the Gibborim to learn a bit more of the fine print on the offer. Most importantly, a deadline : 12 hours, after which the Gibborim disappear forever. 
He then proceeds to capture Nico. 

Notes : 
- Because of the abrupt deadline and the fact that Chase has only come back to the Gibborim now, this mustn't occur much long after #21. 
- Mention is made that the government is setting up a superhero team in LA. The Runaways are not familiar with them, so this probably just the beginning of the Cal. Initiative team. 


RUNAWAYS v2 #23 

(continued directly from last issue) 
Chase explains to Nico his grand plan : he's going to sacrifice himself to resurrect Gert, since he's too innocent to sacrifice anyone else. Victor shows up, but Chase disables him. He and Old Lace go off. The other Runaways (minus Leapfrog, since nobody apart from Victor and Chase now how to drive it) go after him, following the trail purposely left by Old Lace. 
On their way out of the tar pits, they are noticed by two cops. 

Note : Molly hears a voice telling her helpful advice. It is made clear next issue that this is Alex intervening from beyond the grave (and not Gert, as Molly thinks), so he gets a BTS for this issue. 

RUNAWAYS v2 #24 

(continued directly from last issue) 
The Runaways confront Chase and the Gibborim in their dimension. Big fight, the deadline is reached, and the Gibborim disappear. Chase and Old Lace are back with the team, but under close surveillance. 
But as they go back to their lair, the Runaways are greeted by Iron Man and a team of capekillers. Cue cliffhanger. 
Meanwhile, the Gibborim end up in a void afterlife, where Alex greets them. 


MCP-type listings : 

ALEX WILDER 
... 
RUN 17 
RUN2 23-BTS 
RUN2 24 

NICO MINORU/SISTER GRIMM [as well as MOLLY HAYES/BRUISER/PRINCESS POWERFUL, CHASE STEIN/TALKBACK, KAROLINA DEAN/LUCY IN THE SKY and OLD LACE] 
... 
RUN2 2 p5-10 
RUN2 19-FB 
RUN2 2 p11-22 
... 
RUN2 18 
RUN2 19 
RUN2 20 
RUN2 21 
CW:YA&R 1 
CW:YA&R 2 
CW:YA&R 3 
CW:YA&R 4 
RUN2 22 
RUN2 23 
RUN2 24 

VICTOR MANCHA/VICTORIOUS [as well as XAVIN] 
... 
RUN2 18 
RUN2 19 
RUN2 20 
RUN2 21 
CW:YA&R 1 
CW:YA&R 2 
CW:YA&R 3 
CW:YA&R 4 
RUN2 22 
RUN2 23 
RUN2 24 

LOTUS 
... 
RUN2 18 
RUN2 19 
RUN2 20 
RUN2 21 

GERTRUDE YORKES/ARSENIC 2 
... 
RUN2 2 p5-10 
RUN2 19-FB 
RUN2 2 p11-22 
... 

LEAPFROG [a complete listing, since I completely forgot to include it in previous analysis] 
RUN 15 
RUN 17 
RUN 18 
RUN2 2-FB 
RUN2 1 
RUN2 2 
RUN2 3 
RUN2 4 
RUN2 5-BTS 
RUN2 6 
RUN2 7 
RUN2 8 
RUN2 13 
RUN2 14 
RUN2 15 
RUN2 16 
RUN2 17 
RUN2 18 
RUN2 19 
RUN2 20 
RUN2 21 
CW:YA&R 1 
CW:YA&R 4 
RUN2 22 
RUN2 23 
RUN2 24 

Well, that's all for today. Next : probably Runaways Saga. 


UPDATE : 

JD wrote: 
>>>
- Chester Biloxi & Cadie McDunnough, TV reporters, appear briefly in issue #21. Probably not worth an entry. 
<<<

Actually, both of those showed up in Runaways v1 #18. I'll check through my collection to find out whether they appeared anywhere else.

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Posted: 03 Mar 2007 08:51 am    Post subject: March call for analyses
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Here's the call for March. 

People noted in parentheses have volunteered to provide analyses, and there are still a number of stories desperately seeking volunteers. 

Completed stories (as of 2/28/07) 
Agents of Atlas #1-6 (Eric) 
Books of Doom #1-6 (Eric) 
Daredevil v2 #89-93 (Kevin) 
Daredevil v2 #94 (Kevin) 
Daughters of the Dragon #1-6 
Eternals v3 #1-7 (Eric) 
Franklin Richards: Son of a Genius Super Summer Spectacular 
Legion of Monsters: Werewolf By Night #1 (JLH) 
Moon Knight v? #1-6 (Joe) 
Nextwave: Agents of H.A.T.E. #1-12 (Chris) 
Nick Furys Howling Commandos #1-6 (Russ) 
Reading to the Rescue #4 
Sentinel v2 #1-5 (JD) 
Spider-Man Family #1 
Thor: Son of Asgard #7-12 (John) 
Underworld #1-5 (Aaron) 

Future stuff 
Annihilation: Heralds of Galactus #1-2 (JLH) 
Annihilation Saga [new material?] (JLH) 
Blade v3 #7 (JLH) 
Blade v3 #8 (JLH) 
Blade v3 #9 (JLH) 
Daredevil v2 #95-99 (Kevin) 
Ghost Rider v5 #8-11 (JLH) 
Ghost Rider: Trail of Tears #1-6 (JLH) 
Immortal Iron Fist #1-6 (Don) 
Incredible Hulk v3 #104-105 (Kevin) 
Irredeemable Ant-Man #1-6 (Somebody) 
Irredeemable Ant-Man #7 
Irredeemable Ant-Man #8 
Legion of Monsters: Man-Thing #1 (JLH) 
Legion of Monsters: Morbius (JLH) 
Marvel Westerns: Strange Westerns Featuring the Black Rider (Eric) 
Moon Knight v? #9-10 
Nova v4 #1-? (JLH) 
Punisher v7 #43-49 (Col_Fury) 
Punisher Presents: Barracuda #1-5 (Col_Fury) 
Runaways v2 #25-30 (JD) 
Runaways Saga (JD) 
Silver Surfer: Requiem #1-4 [canonical?] 
Spider-Man Family #2 
Thunderbolts Presents: Zemo  Born Better #2-4 (Sean K.) 
White Tiger #1-6 (Kevin) 
Wisdom #1-6 (Paul O.) 
Wolverine v3 #50-55 (Col_Fury) 
Wolverine: Origins #11-15 (Col_Fury) 
X-23: Target X #1-6 (Paul O.) 

Any help that people can provide would be greatly appreciated. And please correct me if I've missed someone or assigned something erroneously. 

As always, thanks to all who post on this forum! 
_________________
Paul B.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 20 Mar 2007 09:17 pm; edited 7 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Mar 2007 09:16 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Just to be sure, Paul, you're picking up "World War Hulk Prologue: World Breaker" and Hulk #106? 

That leaves more time to focus on Daredevil... 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Mar 2007 06:00 pm    
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Runaways v2 #25-30 
Runaways Saga 
<<<

Haven't I already volunteered for this ?  

#19-24 should be done... very soon. And Sentinel v2... whenever. If somebody wants to do it instead, I'll be happy to concede.

			*	*	*

Posted: 03 Mar 2007 06:49 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin wrote: 
>>>
Just to be sure, Paul, you're picking up "World War Hulk Prologue: World Breaker" and Hulk #106?  
<<<

That's the plan.  


JD wrote: 
>>>
Haven't I already volunteered for this? 
<<<

Yup, you got it, JD!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Mar 2007 12:10 am    
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Annihilation Saga [new material?] 
<<<

I'll do it, or at least check it out for clarity's sake. 


Quote: 
>>>
Ghost Rider v5 #8-12 (JLH) 
<<<

Just to let you know, the storyline ends with 11, while 12 & 13 are "World War Hulk" tie-ins. 


Quote: 
>>>
Legion of Monsters: Morbius 
<<<

Me wantee!

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Posted: 04 Mar 2007 06:32 am    Post subject: Marvel Super-Heroes vol 3 #13, 14, 15
By JLH

Another trio of Gap books... 

------------------------------------ 
MARVEL SUPER-HEROES VOL 3 #13 [Spring (April) 1993] 

Story 1: 
"The Sting" 
Writer: Jim Owsley 
Penciler: Greg LaRoque 
Inker: Vincent Colletta 

Cast: 
IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK 
ARBOGAST, BAMBI 
IRON MAN IV/JAMES R. "JIM" "RHODEY" RHODES 
HAMMER, JUSTIN (BTS) 

Other characters: 
Mr Graves (test pilot and spy for Hammer) 
Jack (Stark employee) 
Smithers (double for Justin Hammer) 
Sondra (bikini babe of Smithers') 
Roboids (Hammer's robotic henchmen) 
Island natives 

Summary: Tony Stark gets to work late, and scrambles to make it to the test run of his company's new computer guidance system designed for NASA. He goes along for the flight, but the pilot turns out to be a spy, who steals the Redbird plane with the system installed, and drops Stark off on the island home of Justin Hammer. He gloats over the "defeat" of his business rival, and departs to his yacht, taking Stark's briefcase (which has a "doomsmith" device inside, instead of his usual armor) with him. Luckily, this was expected! Stark contacts Rhodey, who choppers over the island and drops a box with his armor inside, and a device able to cause the Redbird to self-destruct... at least, that's what the pilot, Graves, thinks when he parachutes out, only to have the plane head back to Stark International safely. The sting operation continues, as Hammer learns the briefcase device he stole from Stark is actually a homing beacon. His armored yacht is besieged by the Coast Guard, but Justin escapes in the arms of his Roboids to his secondary yacht. Before Iron Man can head after him, the island is wracked by an earthquake! He's no choice but to try to save the natives from the debris, groundsplitting, and eventually, a tidal wave. While doing it, he finds himself resenting having to save the people, as an inconvience. These thoughts stay with him, or at least, his thoughts of these thoughts, his obsession with getting Hammer bringing great concern to Tony. His armor's energy is nearly depleted, but before he can solar charge the cells, an aftershock puts some more natives in danger. Iron Man uses the last of his energy saving them, and his armor shuts down. In a rage, Tony flings his helmet into the ocean, cursing all the while. 


Continuity notes: "This story takes place prior to the events in IRON MAN #167. 

Stark International is the company. The armor is the red & yellow classic, right down to the roller skates. Iron Man's an Avenger at this time. 

Calendar notes: Takes place on a Monday. 


----------------- 
Story 2: 
"Checkmate" 
Story: Jim Owsley 
Breakdowns: Greg LaRoque 
Finishes: Armando Gil and Bruce Patterson 

Cast: 
IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK 
IRON MAN IV/JAMES R. "JIM" "RHODEY" RHODES 
HAMMER, JUSTIN 

Other characters: 
Smithers (double for Justin Hammer. Seemingly dies) 
Jones (only one of Hammer's goons named) 
Roboids 
Island natives 


Summary: Still stuck on the island, Tony is forced to wait while his armor recharges its batteries via solar power. The natives appear to worship him, which annoys Tony, since he spent the whole time saving them more focused on taking down Justin Hammer. Elsewhere, Rhodey awaits word from his boss and friend at the Coast Guard base near the Canal Zone. Though the head guy there urges him to follow Stark's instructions not to act without giving them a signal, Rhodey won't wait for much longer before taking action. Back on the island, Tony sits in the mud in his underwear. Justin Hammer and his Roboids return to the island, calling out Tony. When he does show, some of the natives are shot down. Despite his armor still needing just a few minutes to finish recharging, Tony turns himself in. Some of Hammer's goons end up finding the armor lying around on the beach, taking it with them as they all head for the yacht. That night, Hammer's still too dim to connect the armor with the nearly naked Stark, and orders his men to shoot their prisoner. But Tony distracts them with an offer of paying them double long enough to leap overboard. In his skivvies in 39 degree waters, Tony has only a minute's worth of air left, and faces a surrounding horde of sharks! He acts quickly, injuring a shark who comes close enough by biting into it, and sending the others in a feeding frenzy upon their fellow great white. Coming up for air far enough from the ship, Tony soon swims over to it and systematically dispatches each of the guards into the water (threatening to kill them if they don't). He does drop them a liferaft, at least. Anyway, Tony manages to reclaim his armor, trashes the Roboids, and finally pries Hammer from beneath the metal bulkhead of the yacht. But the man we've been led to believe is Justin Hammer reveals he's actually Smithers, Hammer's "man in the Pacific", a double. One of the henchmen is in contact with the Hammer, who orders the yacht destroyed. Iron Man is knocked away by the blast, which apparently kills Smithers and all of the henchmen! Iron Man connects Hammer's disrespect for human life with his own thoughts earlier in the island, vowing revenge on Justin for, not just his usual crimes, but for nearly making Tony like him. Elsewhere, the real Justin Hammer watches Iron Man lost in thought via videofeed, enjoying his successful ruse. 


Continuity notes: Continues directly from the previous story (I suppose the reason they didn't just make them two chapters is because they were originally intended to go in separate issues). 

One of the guards sings the "male" version of the song "I Love Rock and Roll". Not exactly important, but I thought it'd bring it up. 


Calendar notes: Appears to be the same day, going into night, as the previous story. Full moon. 

----------------- 
Pin-ups by Kev Hopgood, Bruce Patterson, Gene Colon and Don Heck. 

----------------- 
Story 3: 
"Gold Fever" 
Writer: Kurt Busiek III 
Penciler: James W. Fry III 
Inker: Jim Sanders III 

Cast: 
IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK (also in FB) 
IRON MAN IV/JAMES R. "JIM" "RHODEY" RHODES (FB only) 
ERWIN, CLYTEMNESTRA (FB only) 
MIDAS 

Other characters: 
Darby (last name unknown. Vacationing IM fangirl from New Jersey) 
Jack Kaper (P.I. who used to serve with Rhodey in Nam. Dies) 
Tonio (hotel doorman) 
Centurions (Midas' henchmen. Only one named is Davos) 


Summary: Iron Man is in Athens, Greece. He fishes the car of P.I. Jack Kaper out of a harbor, finding the man hired to find who was stealing gold supplies in the area dead! Tony blames himself for his death, since he wanted to investigate the case himself and was talked out of it. While he has SHIELD labs try to develop some photos from the dead man's waterlogged camera, he returns to his place as "vacationing" Tony Stark, only to be dogged by reporters. He slips away from them, only to bump into a college-aged girl named Darby who turns out to be Iron Man's biggest fan! Tony claims Iron Man's on a mission and gives her the slip, as well. But the next day, while as Iron Man, following the info given from Kaper's photos, Darby spots him and hounds him. She ends up being helpful in pointing out the geography and history concerning the place in the picture, coves used by smugglers and how people recently had gone missing near that area. Iron Man checks it out, and finds a secret cave. Darby keeps hanging around, despite his painting a very realistic picture of how the people he's after will very likely shoot her in the head if they catch her. He gets her to remain behind while he checks out the cave, which leads to an underwater base, containing the stolen gold, as well as a gang of henchmen. These Centurions, with their exoskeleton battlesuits, seem familiar to Tony, and he realizes all too late who they're working for... the man called Midas! He's back to life, and now with golden armored skin. As he explains, he finally regained his sanity following the psychic lobotomy given to him in issue 107, only to find his body mutated inward by his "golden touch", and he now has to eat bars of gold to survive. He's given mobility by electrodes. Anyway, Iron Man is gripped by cables, sapping his power by tapping into the electro-magnetic fields of his armor. Midas vows vengeance on him and the woman who stole his mind, as well as on Tony Stark, making it clear he's forgotten his secret ID. Midas leaves to go have a snack, and Tony scolds himself for not telling Darby to contact someone for assistance. Luckily, she got nosey again and has come down to help him out. She follows his instructions and helps rewire part of his armor enough to get him freed. This harkens back to his guilt over Kaper's death, he realizes he can't do everything alone. Anyway, the rewiring leads to Iron Man sapping the energy of the base. He does is slowly enough to give the Centurions time to escape, but destroys the place eventually. Midas tries to escape with the gold in tow, yet Iron Man follows and in telling his bodyguard to take evasive action, Midas falls out of the aircraft! The craft crashes safely, leading to the gold being recovered. Midas, though, plummets to the bottom of the harbor. Iron Man searches for as long as he can, but finds no trace of his foe. Midas has been keeping out of sight, and once Tony departs, he prepares to flee from the bottom of the murky waters... only to have the electrodes short circuit, trapping him, unable to move a muscle! The next night, Tony sees Darby off, thanking her for helping Iron Man. She turns him down for dinner, wanting to head to Italy next on her trip, but offers to take him up on the offer if he's ever in New Jersey. She's long gone before he realizes he never learned her last name. 


Flashback: "Weeks ago", Tony lamented the lack of gold for circuit prototypes for his new company to Clytemnestra and Rhodey. This was the third hijacking of a gold supply in a row, so Tony set out as Iron Man to find out who was behind it... until Cly reminded him the company needed him there. Rhodey then hired a Private Investigator to check into it for them, Jack Kaper. 

Continuity notes: "This story takes place prior to events in IRON MAN #215." 

Circuits Maximus is the company (having "just started out"). Red & Silver Centurion is the armor, and is "new". 

Goof: It came to my attention that Circuits Maximus was destroyed by the time the Red & Silver armor was first used. Clearly, what should have been mentioned was "Stark Enterprises" was just starting out, not CM. Somehow I doubt it was Kurt who made this mistake... 

------------------------------------ 

MARVEL SUPER-HEROES VOL 3 #14 [Summer (July) 1993] 

Story 1: 
"Ludd Conquers All" 
Plot: Brian Bauer 
Script: David Michelinie 
Pencils: Bob McLeod 
Inks: Ralph Cabrera & Jim Amash 

Cast: 
IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK 
IRON MAN IV/JAMES R. "JIM" "RHODEY" RHODES 
SERAPH/REGGIE BITTERS (also in FB) 

Other characters: 
Sybil (last name unknown.) 
General Ludd and his evil Luddites 
Ellen (voice only) 
Dr Marsh 


Summary: This story's already in the MCP, though Seraph isn't listed. 


Flashback: Seraph's "origin". 

Continuity notes: Stark International is the company. Classic Red & Yellow is the armor. 

Only direct placement is a narrative caption saying "Some people live in the past; This story takes place there." 


----------------- 
Dr Strange pin-up by Jeff Albrecht 

----------------- 
Story 2: 
"The Education Of Augustyne Phyffe" 
Writers: Roy Thomas, R.J.M. L'Officier 
Penciler: Greg LaRoque 
Inkers: Jerry Acerno & Vince Colletta 

Cast: 
DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 
PHYFFE, AUGUSTYNE 

Other characters: 
Dyskor The Purveyor (demon) 
James & Veronica (pals of Augustyne. Both die) 


Summary: Augustyne, having tried to life a normal life as a starving artist, witnesses his friends killed by demon wraiths. It appears to everyone else as merely a car accident, but he knows that no matter what he does, magic will ruin his life. Dr Strange, in checking up on the son of his former enemy, offers a chance to Augustyne to become his pupil and master the magic that he condemns. The training goes well enough, until an attempt at Other-Dimensional Exploration puts Augustyne in the presence of Dyskor, a demon who once had dealings with his father, Lord Julius Phyffe. The demon follows him back to Earth and tries to get him to use him as an agent to sign up with certain demonic overlords. It's soon revealed Dyskor was the guy who sent the wraiths to shake up Augustyne's life and make him choose to be a sorcerer. Dr Strange saves the day, and soon, Augustyne wants a Spell of Annulment performed, removing not only all of his magical powers, but his skills as an artist. With a heavy heart, Strange agrees and performs the spell. 


Flashback: Just a generic recapping of Dr Strange's origin, with art redrawn directly from shots done by Ditko. 

Continuity notes: Doc Strange mentions "just recently" he helped Augustyne get his life in order, placing this not all too far from the last tale, but likely not immediately following it. 

It's your basic modern-classic Dr Strange in terms of outfit, attitude, and household. 

Mentioned are Baron Mordon, Lord Jekon, Sir Baskerville, Dormammu, Toboro, Satanish, and Mephisto. Also mentioned, Dr Strange was on a show called "Hour Thirteen". 


----------------- 
Nick Fury, SHIELD and Wolverine vs Baron Strucker and Red Skull pin-up by Ernie Stiner & Don Hudson. 

Speedball vs Absorbing Man (alternate cover) by Ron Wilson & Jeff Albrecht 

----------------- 
Story 3: 
"Downtown Demolition" 
Writer: Mike Rockwitz 
Penciler: Ron Wilson 
Inker: Bob Petrecca 

Cast: 
SPEEDBALL/ROBBIE BALDWIN 
BALDWIN, JUSTIN 
BALDWIN, MADELYNE "MADDIE" NAYLOR 
ABSORBING MAN/CARL "CRUSHER" CREEL 

Other characters: 
Jack (friend of Robbie's) 
Officer Jones 


Summary: Absorbing Man comes to Springdale, causes trouble, and puts Maddie Baldwin in danger! Luckily, her son is secretly Speedball, the Masked Marvel, and it's kinetic balls against wrecking ball as he faces the villain. Creel is defeated when he accidentally absorbs Speedball's powers and bounces himself into a tizzy. All in all a pretty crummy tale (thrill to Absorbing Man walking down the street and visiting a bar! exciting homework avoiding action by Robbie and Jack!) that's only redeemed by the exchange, "Robbie, you're such a goon! You had to ride the bowl at a time like this? You missed everything!" "But I had such pains!" 


Continuity notes: "This story takes place prior to events in New Warriors #1." 

Absorbing Man "washed up" in Connecticut. He mentions recently fighting Hulk and Thor. The TV show "Felons Most Wanted" shows "recent" footage of his attack against a car in Las Vegas, denoting Incredible Hulk 348. Odd there's no mention of his fight with Quasar... 


------------------------------------ 

MARVEL SUPER-HEROES VOL 3 #15 [Fall (October) 1993] 

Story 1: 
"The Heart Of Power" 
Plot: David Kraft, Keith Pollard 
Script: Len Kaminski 
Art: Keith Pollard 

Cast: 
IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK 
IRON MAN IV/JAMES R. "JIM" "RHODEY" RHODES 
ARBOGAST, BAMBI (BTS. Sends Stark files in the field) 

Other characters: 
Shiela (Stark's girl of the day) 
Jean (Stark's gray-haired secretary who isn't Bambi) 
Ed Deal (scientist for Stark) 
Nicole (Stark's girl of the next day) 
Tom Kavanagh (VP of Stark Enterprises' operations) 
Inoshiro Kondo (Japanese villain) 
Miyu of the Shinma (Kondo's mystical master.. err, mistress) 


Summary: Currently in the MCP, though in the wrong position (it's put after IM 116, when it should be after IM 216!) Also, Bambi's appearance, such as it is, is missing. And should Inoshiro Kondo get a listing? He IS the villain for the story, and in more of it than Tony... 


Continuity notes: Stark Enterprises is the company. Red & Silver Centurion is the armor. 

Maybe I'm wrong, but the pilot who picks up Stark, calls him "Yo, chief" and Tony calls "Jim" is most likely Rhodey. It's hard to tell from the art, since the shot is colored weird by the chopper's tinted glass. 

----------------- 
Lots of pin-ups are scattered throughout. Why am I mentioning them? This ain't the Creators Handbook... 

----------------- 
Story 2: 
"Volstagg's mostly Greatest Adventure" 
Writing: Walter Simson 
Penciling: Joe Barney 
Inking: Frank Turner 

Cast: 
VOLSTAGG (also in FB) 
HOGUN 
FANDRAL 
GUDRUN 
ENCHANTRESS/AMORA/"HELEN EVE"/"CHRISTINE COLLINS" (also in FB) 
ODIN (FB only) 
THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" (FB only) 
EXECUTIONER II/SKURGE (FB only) 
LOKI (FB only) 

Other characters: 
Volstagg and Gudrun's 12 children (only Sigfod is named) 
Frost Giants from Jotunheim 


Summary: Volstagg thrills his children to a bedtime tale. Enchantress overhears, and bemused by his boasting, confirms it occurred and gives him a kiss, which wows his kids, but gets him in trouble with Gudrun. 


Flashback: Long ago, Volstagg was sent by Odin down to Midgard to retrieve the young Thor, who was drinking and hanging out with Enchantress and Executioner. Fearing they might exploit his youth, Volstagg journeyed to the tavern, only to end up enchanted by the Enchantress. She tricked Volstagg into removing a giant jewel from the gate betwixt Midgard and Jotunheim, letting loose the Frost Giants in the process. Suspicious, Thor followed, and discovered the plot was masterminded by Skurge (though unbeknowst to him, Loki was also involved), whom he defeated in battle. Stumbling about the giant gem, Volstagg caused the giants to trip over themselves (though the way he tells it, he saved Thor and took out the giants with his own might). Later, Odin hailed Volstagg for his defeat of the giants, as backed up by Thor. 


Continuity notes: Volstagg mentions the FB tale was before he met Gudrun. Thor doesn't look that young in it, really. 

----------------- 
Story 3: 
"The Theft of Thor's Hammer!" 
Story: Bill Mantlo 
Art: Don Heck 

Cast: 
THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" 
FREYA 
VOLSTAGG 
HOGUN 
FANDRAL 
LOKI (also in FB) 
ODIN 

Other characters: 
Thrym (Frost Giant. Also in FB) 
Other Frost Giants 

Summary: Thor wakes up to find his hammer missing! Loki reveals it was stolen by Thyrm, the Frost Giant, who will only return it in exchange for the hand of Freya in marriage! Much to Thor's chagrin, Loki hatches a plan to get it back, by having Thor himself get in a dress and veil and pretend to be Freya. During the wedding ceremony, Thor makes a play for the hammer and gives the giants a stern pounding. 


Flashback: Loki encounters Thrym, who informs him he'd stolen the hammer. 

Continuity notes: There's a narrative caption claiming this is one of Loki's many "Tall Tales" he's told about his brother. But there's nothing in it that is contradictive to throw it out. If Loki made this up, you'd think he'd do a better job of making Thor like wearing the dress. 

----------------- 
Story 4: 
"...Gaze Into My Eyes..." 
Script: Rick Parker 
Pencils: Paul Neary 
Inks: Rick Parker 

Cast: 
DOCTOR DRUID/ANTHONY LUDGATE/"ANTHONY DRUID" 
TEXAS TWISTER/DREW DANIELS 
HELLSTORM/DAIMON HELLSTROM 
SHOOTING STAR/VICTORIA STARR 
DEFALCO, TOM 
GRUENWALD, MARK 

Other characters: 
Unidipus (You need to what?!) 


Summary: The fart-powered Texas Twister seeks aid from Doctor Druid in finding his girlfriend, Shooting Starm, who was replaced by a demon. Druid seeks the help of Hadestorm, aka Heckstorm, aka Hellstorm, disguised as Igodapus (I got to what?!), and they fight the demonic Unidipus. Shooting Star is saved from between dimensions, and reunited with Twister. Mark Gruenwald and Tom Defalco end up stranded on Druid's Fiji island, and are blown up when Tom lights a cigar in the fart-filled room Twister had stayed in. 


Continuity notes: Despite the completely silly tone of the story, it almost could've worked. What stopped it? Shooting Star's fate was dealt with in Solo Avengers #18, the demon never replaced her, merely possessed her. This story doesn't work unless she was switched with a doppleganger, which wasn't the case. 

Hellstorm's costume is his "superhero" one. 

Shooting Star's real name is said to be "Victoria Starr". That should probably be in her MCP entry... 


Goofs: The cover to the issue has a blurb claiming that an Incredible Hulk tale can be found within. Instead, this was presented. 

------------------------------------ 

The MCP-style stuff is next... any comments on placements?

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Mar 2007 12:39 pm    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
There's a narrative caption claiming this is one of Loki's many "Tall Tales" he's told about his brother. But there's nothing in it that is contradictive to throw it out. 
<<<

I thought no-one unworthy could lift Thor's hammer -- much less steal it. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 04 Mar 2007 11:55 pm    
By JLH

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
I thought no-one unworthy could lift Thor's hammer -- much less steal it. 
<<<

He and his fellow giants drug away the table Thor left Mjolnir on.

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Mar 2007 02:34 am    
By JLH

The MCP style stuff. The Asgardian related stuff might not be picture perfect in the placement, but I tried. 


ABSORBING MAN/CARL "CRUSHER" CREEL 
... 
ASPOT 29/2 
**M/SH3 14/3 
A@ 20/4 
... 

ARBOGAST, BAMBINA "BAMBI" TERESA BLISS 
(fleshed out to her full name) 
... 
IM 166 
A 228-BTS 
**M/SH3 13 
IM 167 
... 
IM@ 9 
**M/SH3 15-BTS 
IM 223 
.... 

**AZRAEL/JULIAN LORD PHYFFE 
(the current Azrael should be given an added "II") 
M/SH3 12-FB 
{DRSTR2 9} 
DRSTR2 10 
DRSTR2 11 
DRSTR2 15 
DRSTR2 16 
DRSTR2 17 
DRSTR2 39 
DRSTR2 40 
M-T2 4 


BALDWIN, JUSTIN 
... 
M/SH3 6/4 
**M/SH3 14/3 
NW 3 
... 


BALDWIN, MADELYNE "MADDIE" NAYLOR 
.... 
M/SH3 6/4 
**M/SH3 14/3 
NW 1 

DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 
... 
DHOLD 7 
**M/SH3 14/2 
DRSTR3 48 
... 

ENCHANTRESS/AMORA/"HELEN EVE"/"CHRISTINE COLLINS" [ASGARDIAN] 
... 
**M/SH3 15/2-FB 
DEF 108-FB 
... 
T 459 
**M/SH3 15/2 
T 491 
... 

ERWIN, CLYTEMNESTRA 
... 
IM 213 
**M/SH3 13/3-FB 
IM 215 
... 

EXECUTIONER II/SKURGE [ASGARDIAN] 
T 440 
**M/SH3 15/2-FB 
{JIM 103} 
... 

FALCON/SAM WILSON 
... 
CA 355 
(M/SH3 13/2-FB)-REPLACE 
**M/SH3 12/2-FB 
M/CP 23/3 
... 

FANDRAL [ASGARDIAN] 
... 
M/:LG 5 
**M/SH3 15/3 
T 479-FB 
... 
WIW 25 
**M/SH3 15/2 
T 472 
... 

FREYA [ASGARDIAN] 
**M/SH3 15/3 
{T 321-FB} 

GUDRUN [ASGARDIAN] 
... 
T 454 
**M/SH3 15/2 
T 482/2 
... 

HAMMER, JUSTIN 
... 
IM 141 
**M/SH3 13-BTS 
**M/SH3 13/2 
IM 217 
... 


HOGUN [ASGARDIAN] 
... 
M/:LG 5 
**M/SH3 15/3 
T 479-FB 
... 
WIW 25 
**M/SH3 15/2 
T 472 
... 

IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK 
... 
IM@ 11/4 
(M/SH3 15)-REMOVE 
A 181 
... 
CM 56 
**M/SH3 13 
**M/SH3 13/2 
A 167 
... 
WCA2 24 
**M/SH3 13/3-FB 
**M/SH3 13/3 
IM 215 
... 
IM@ 9 
**M/SH3 15 
IM 223 
... 

IRON MAN IV/JAMES RUPERT "JIM" "RHODEY" RHODES 
(fleshed out middle name) 
... 
IM3 20-FB 
(M/SH3 15)-REMOVE 
IM3 20-FB 
... 
IM 166 
**M/SH3 13 
**M/SH3 13/2 
IM 167 
... 
M/SH3 12/3 
**M/SH3 13/3-FB 
IM 215 
... 
IM@ 9 
**M/SH3 15 
IM 223 
... 


**KONDO, INOSHIRO 
M/SH3 15 
IM@ 10/2 


LOKI [ASGARDIAN] 
... 
T 323 
**M/SH3 15/2-FB 
T 370 
... 
T 479-FB 
**M/SH3 15/3-FB 
**M/SH3 15/3 
M/TALES 252/2 
... 

MIDAS/MORDECAI MIDAS 
(added real name) 
... 
IM 107 
**M/SH3 13/3-FB-BTS 
**M/SH3 13/3 
IM3 1 

ODIN [ASGARDIAN] 
... 
T 323 
**M/SH3 15/2-FB 
BP3 47 
**M/SH3 15/3 
T 479-FB 
... 

**PHYFFE, AUGUSTYNE 
M/SH3 12-FB 
{M/SH3 12} 
M/SH3 14/2 

**SERAPH II/REGGIE BITTERS 
M/SH3 14-FB 
M/SH3 14 

SPEEDBALL/ROBBIE BALDWIN 
... 
M/CP 56/4 
**M/SH3 14/3 
M/CP 127/2 
NW 1 
... 


THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" [ASGARDIAN] 
... 
T 323 
**M/SH3 15/2-FB 
T 370 
... 
M/:LG 5 
**M/SH3 15/3 
M/TALES 252/2 
... 

VOLSTAGG [ASGARDIAN] 
... 
T 323 
**M/SH3 15/2-FB 
M/:LG 5 
**M/SH3 15/3 
T 479-FB 
... 
WIW 25 
**M/SH3 15/2 
T 472 
...

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Posted: 07 Mar 2007 05:32 am    Post subject: Tales of the Marvels: Blockbuster
By JLH

Another Gap presentation. 

------------------------------------ 
TALES OF THE MARVELS: BLOCKBUSTER [April 1995] 
Writer: Mike Baron 
Art: Shawn Martinbrough 
"Blockbuster" 

Cast: 
SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD (also in FB, and also in scenes concurrent to FF 258 or 259 or 260) 
KINGPIN/WILSON FISK 
THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM (concurrent to FF 258 or 259 or 260) 
TERRAX II/TYROS (as Tyros the Terrible) (concurrent to FF 258 or 259 or 260) 
DOCTOR DOOM/VICTOR VON DOOM (BTS concurrent to FF 258 or 259 or 260) 
HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM (BTS concurrent to FF 258 or 259 or 260) 
QUASAR III/WENDELL ELVIS VAUGHAN (concurrent appearance to Q 34) 
SUPER SKRULL/KL'RT (concurrent appearance to Q 34) 
WAR MACHINE/JAMES R. "JIM" "RHODEY" RHODES (concurrent appearance to IM 285 or 286) 
HAWKEYE/CLINT BARTON (concurrent appearance to IM 285 or 286) 
WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM (concurrent appearance to IM 285 or 286) 
LIVING LIGHTNING/MIGUEL SANTOS (concurrent appearance to IM 285 or 286) 

Other characters: 
Roman Stewart (former cop) 
Bob and Luanne Stewart (Roman's parents, both die) 
Dr Ron Burns (plastic surgeon) 
Clyde Comeaux (thief turned Kingpin wannabe) 
Joan Weis (and her mother, who dies) 
Dr Hibbs (police medical examiner) 
Captain Stern (BTS, used to work with Roman and is on the scene) 
Cops (Brian and Harry named) 
Dr Rodriguez 
Millie (Nurse) 
Jane Burns (wife of Ron) 
Martin O'Connor 
Jay Nathan (paralegal) 
Janet Spago (Director of FEMA) 
Bobby (crime-buddy of Clyde's) 
Sally (Nurse who once worked with Dr Burns) 
Ryan, Ohio, Sunshine Mary (homeless people) 
Maltese (Kingpin's right hand lackey) 


Summary: The destruction of the apartment building located at 7002 Ocean Avenue, Flushing, Queens in a battle between Silver Surfer and Tyros is relayed through the eyes of people living there who survived the incident. It all leads up to the anniversary of the "Ocean Avenue Incident", when the survivors are gathered together again... including the alien being many believe responsible, the Silver Surfer... 

Roman Stewart witnesses the destruction from afar, and loses his parents in it. He seeks revenge against the Silver Surfer, which leads him to another survivor, young but brilliant Joan Weis, who doesn't hold the same grudge despite losing her mother. They fall in love, but he uses her to gain a device capable of possibly killing the Surfer. When the Surfer returns, he reveals he's been keeping an ear out for Joan and is proud of what she's done with her life. Roman nearly goes through with killing the Surfer, but love wins over his hate. 

Dr Ron Burns, a rich plastic surgeon, is having an affair in the building when it explodes. His face is burnt beyond repair, and his wife takes all of his money in the divorce. Burns hopes the Surfer will fix his face for him. Until then, he lives on the streets, and uses his medical know-how to help fellow vagrants, unaware that he's doing more good now than he ever did before, having become richer by being poorer. 

Clyde Comeaux was robbing an apartment when the explosion occured. He somehow survived without a scratch, and decides to become the greatest crime lord around, slowly nipping at the heels of the Kingpin on his way up. But he's also dying, having gained cancer from the clash between cosmic enemies. The Surfer notices the energy that's killing him is cosmic leftover from Tyros, and takes it out of him. 


Continuity notes: The beginning of the book starts off taking place within FF 258-260 (any help on what issue specifically would be appreciated). Here's a breakdown of the scenes: 

1) Thing is knocked out of a building by a stone-blast hand-like thing, and falls toward the street below. 
2) Thing recovers on the ground, as Tyros rides an earth-wave toward him. 
3) A flame 4 is spotted in the air, implying Johnny was behind it. 
4) Silver Surfer smacks aside Tyros, knocking him out of his earth-wave perch. Tyros grabs on to his board, climbs up and they battle, arms locked until Tyros grips his throat, all the while the building explodes around them. 
5) The spot where Doctor Doom was "zapped into fairy dust by the Silver Surfer" suddenly comes to life when something shoots out of it and takes off skyward. 
6) A FB immediately following scene "4", Tyros grabbing Surfer's neck. Joan Weis' hands are up covering her face somewhat. Surfer notices her, waves his arm and makes her float away to safety. 

A Daily Bugle headline says "DR DOOM KILLED, Fantastic Four, Silver SUrfer.... resulted in citizens massacre." 

Martin mentions this is the "45th instance in which the Fantastic Four have been involved..." 

"Two years later", Kingpin is said to be the dude who "iced Daredevil", and is having a war with the Punisher. Whether the "icing" is Born Again or DD 260, I'm unsure. But considering the Kingpin didn't get really into a war with Punisher more directly until about the time PWJ started, it's probably more the latter. 

An Avengers Quinjet passes in front of Kingpin's skyscraper. At the time, he's mentioning his time is occupied with "Howard Nees and the Punisher". The only reference I can find on Nees is that he was killed during "The Final Days" arc starting in Punisher2 52, and appeared before that in PWJ 34 (both Mike Baron-written tales). Obviously, this scene is a long enough while prior to those stories and Nees has to have been a problem for a long time. 

"Three years later, Joan mentions Thor, saying his "signature seems changed recently." 

Quasar is said to be an Avenger during his fight with Super Skrull. He's shown fighting him up near the sun, which is directly lifted from Q 34. 

"Eight months later", we see the Kingpin again. He's still in power at the time, obviously. 

War Machine-armored Rhodey as Iron Man fighting Living Laser while Wasp and Hawkeye flank him outside of a Stark building, is from IM 285-286. It's even mentioned Tony Stark's body isn't even cold yet. If anyone can tell me specifically what issue that scene occurs in, it'd be very helpful. 

It's mentioned the Mayor and the FF showed up for the unveiling of the lobby memorial. Considering the time frame of when it'd take place, I have no real idea who was in the FF at that time (given how much in-flux the team was in that era), nor who was Mayor (Marvel-wise). Would they be BTS 



Goofs: Roman's mother calls her husband Jules. His name is later stated by Roman to be Bob. 

Quasar's shown with short hair. His "sun visor" is also colored yellow instead of silver, and Super-Skrull is oddly missing his special space-wear suit he had on during the scene. 

Joan claims the device she needs is at Stark International, but it's Stark Enterprises that Roman gets it from. 

A news report later gives Tyros the added moniker of "The Destroyer" instead of "The Terrible". 

I don't get why the waiting for Silver Surfer to return is made to be a big deal. The characters actually act like he's not been on Earth, let alone New York, since the fight against Tyros. 



Calendar notes: Starts out "Five Years Ago", moves onward the days after, then skips ahead 6 months, followed by 2 years later, then 3 years later, then 8 months later. What's "present day" to this story is not in line with publishing date, instead about 2 years off real-time wise. 



------------------------------------ 

SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD [ZENN-LAVIAN] 
... 
FF 259 
**~TM:B 
FF 260 
... 
SS3 82 
**TM:B 
Q 50 
... 

KINGPIN/WILSON FISK 
... 
PUN2 18 
**TM:B 
WOSM 48 
... 
PUN:GI 2 
**TM:B 
DD 298 
... 


THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM 
... 
FF 259 
**~TM:B 
FF 260 
... 

TERRAX II/TYROS 
... 
FF 259 
**~TM:B 
FF 260 
... 

DOCTOR DOOM/VICTOR VON DOOM 
... 
FF 259 
**~TM:B-BTS 
FF 260 
... 

HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM 
... 
FF 259 
**~TM:B-BTS 
FF 260 
... 

QUASAR III/WENDELL ELVIS VAUGHAN 
... 
AWC 82 
Q 34 
**Q 34~TM:B 
Q 34 
A 347 
... 

SUPER SKRULL/KL'RT [SKRULL] 
... 
N 18 
Q 34 
**Q 34~TM:B 
Q 34 
T 465 
... 

IRON MAN IV/JAMES R. "JIM" "RHODEY" RHODES 
... 
IM 285 
**~TM:B 
IM 286 
... 

WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM 
... 
IM 285 
**~TM:B 
IM 286 
... 

HAWKEYE/CLINT BARTON 
... 
IM 285 
**~TM:B 
IM 286 
... 

LIVING LIGHTNING/MIGUEL SANTOS 
... 
IM 285 
**~TM:B 
IM 286 
...

			*	*	*

Thread 30

Posted: 10 Mar 2007 12:31 am    Post subject: Moon Knight one-shots
By JLH

Let's rap with the Gap! 

------------------------------------ 
MARC SPECTOR: MOON KNIGHT, SPECIAL EDITION #1 [October 1992] 
Writer: Doug Moench 
Penciler: Art Nichols 
Inker: Chris Ivy 
"Explosion at the Center of a Madman's Crown" 

Cast: 
MOON KNIGHT/MARC SPECTOR/"STEVEN GRANT"/"JAKE LOCKLEY" (also in FB) 
SHANG-CHI (also in both FBs) 
TARR, BLACK JACK (FB only) 
MORDILLO (as a skeleton. Gets destroyed) 
BRYNOCKI (apparently destroyed) 

Other characters: 
Triad Bat Monitors (robotic bats with lisps but no lips) 
Robotic Mummies 
Unnamed Spector Corp London worker 
MI-6 guy 
Pointer Brothers 

Summary: Moon Knight teams up with the Master of Kung-Fu to free people from the South China Sea Island once belonging to the man named Mordillo. There's robots of many kinds, all leading to the mastermind of this "turn cultists into sleeper agents" plot, the Astro Boy-esque bot called Brynocki. 


Flashback: The first one shows Marc Spector coming to London the day prior, having lost a trainee of Spector Corp (and with 'em funds and corporate secrets) to the strange Cult of the Golden Dawn. A brief meeting with MI-6 goes into more detail about the cult, but refuses to tell him where they are. That night, as Moon Knight, he sneaks into the office, only to find Shang-Chi already there. 

The second, shows what brought Shang-Chi to London from Scotland two days prior, with Tarr informing him of the revival of Mordillo's island. 

Then the first FB is resumed (and is thereby a third FB, I assume) where it left off, with Moon Knight and Shang-Chi the night before in the MI-6 office. They read up on the file on the Cult of the Golden Dawn, and where it's located, realizing their goals are the same, as Shang wants to free the "stolen souls" of the cult. 


Continuity notes: The indicia calls the book "Moon Knight Special No 1, Vol 1". 

Moon Knight has his "armor" look from the period of publication. 

------------------ 
Moon Knight Cover Gallery: 
1: Moon Knight #94 featuring "The Pool Shark's Prize Plunder!" (Ty Tempelton) 
2: The Macabre Moon Knight #1 (Don Heck) 
3: There Goes... Moon Knight, the Fist of Khonshu! #17: "Danger on the Desert Sands" (Gene Colan and Chris Ivy) 
4: Journey Into Mythology with Moon Knight #25: "Lo, There Shall Come...Khonshu!" (Ron Frenz & Joe Sinnott) 
5: The Mysterious Moon Knight #80: "Horror is the Hobgoblin!" (John Romita) 
------------------ 

Story 2: 
"Moon Blight: The Motion Picture" 
Words: Michael Higgins 
Pictures: Marie Severin 

Summary: Moon Blight (who is just Moon Knight with no differences other than his name) is touted for a Hollywood blockbuster by Mr Griffin. Numerous celebrities and genre parodies ensue. What's odd, is Devil Dinosaur & Moon Boy appear, without any name alterations. What kind of What The?! universe is this? 


------------------------------------ 
MOON KNIGHT: DIVIDED WE FALL [1992] 
Writer: Bruce Jones 
Penciler: Denys Cowan 
Inker: Tom Palmer, Mike Manley 

Cast: 
MOON KNIGHT/MARC SPECTOR/"STEVEN GRANT"/"JAKE LOCKLEY" 
FRENCHIE/JEAN-PAUL DUCHAMP 
ALRAUNE, MARLENE 
BUSHMAN, RAOUL 
BUSH, GEORGE 
GORBACHEV, MIKHAIL 

Other characters: 
Blaine, Richard "Dick" (villain) 


Summary: Moon Knight loses his two best friends within minutes of each other. One, Frenchie, because their last bust against a drug cartel was ruined by the outdated technology they're using. The other, Marlene, is just sick of Marc's stubborness. A man named Blaine trails both Frenchie and Marlene, and works his way into their lives, and slowly begins to brainwash them into doing his bidding. He also tries to do the same to Moon Knight, and it works enough to get him into position. Seems Blaine works for Raoul Bushman, and he wants revenge on his old enemy, Moony. Gorbachev is coming to New York to meet with the President to talk about nuclear disarmament, and both Frenchie & Marlene are to be used to try to assassinate the Soviet leader, all in front of Moony! But our hero figures enough things out in time to save Gorby, tracks down Bushman and beats him senseless. A confession by Blaine leads to Marlene and Frenchie being freed of any charges, and the trio are happily reunited. 


Continuity notes: The book opens with a tiny caption saying "Mid 1980s". 

Moon Knight has his old standard spandex look. He's partnered with Frenchie, his girlfriend is Marlene. 

Marc mentions the "April 1981 Voodoo Caper" case he had with Frenchie. 

Bush is the President at the time of the story. Gorbachev is the "Soviet leader", or "Secretary of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics". 

Goofs: Bruce Jones writing a government conspiracy tale!? Impossible! This must be a mistake! 

------------------------------------ 

I might be off in my placements, so any assistance is appreciated, as always. 


MOON KNIGHT/MARC SPECTOR/"STEVEN GRANT"/"JAKE LOCKLEY" 
... 
M/SH3 1 
**MK:DWF 
MK3 1 
... 
MK3 40 
**MK:SE 1-FB 
**MK:SE 1-FB 
**MK:SE 1 
IW 2 
... 

SHANG-CHI 
... 
MOKF:BB 
**MK:SE 1-FB 
**MK:SE 1-FB 
**MK:SE 1-FB 
**MK:SE 1 
CA 412 
... 

TARR, BLACK JACK 
... 
MOKF:BB 
**MK:SE 1-FB 
MOKF2 1 
... 

**MORDILLO 
MOKF 33 
MOKF 34 
MOKF 35 
MOKF 73 
MOKF 74 
MOKF 75 
MOKF 119 
ROM 47 
MK:SE 1 

**BRYNOCKI 
MOKF 34 
MOKF 35 
MOKF 72 
MOKF 73-FB 
MOKF 73 
MOKF 74 
MOKF 75 
MOKF 119 
ROM 47 
MK:SE 1-FB-BTS 
MK:SE 1-FB-BTS 
MK:SE 1-FB-BTS 
MK:SE 1 
[Thing vol 2 1-3] 


FRENCHIE/JEAN-PAUL DUCHAMP 
... 
M/SH3 1-BTS 
**MK:DWF 
MK3 1 
... 

ALRAUNE, MARLENE 
... 
MK2 4 
**MK:DWF 
MK3 1 
... 


BUSH, GEORGE 
**MK:DWF 
A 327-BTS 
{UX 274} 
... 


**GORBACHEV, MIKHAIL 
MK:DWF 


BUSHMAN, RAOUL 
... 
MK 10 
**MK:DWF 
MK3 1 
...

			*	*	*

Thread 31

Posted: 10 Mar 2007 03:47 am    Post subject: Northstar #1-4
By JLH

Gap books, from the gay 90's! 

------------------------------------ 
NORTHSTAR #1 [April 1994] 
Writer: Simon Furman 
Penciler: Dario Carrasco, Jr. 
Inker: Ian Akin with Jack Keefer 
"Fast and Loose!" 

Cast: 
NORTHSTAR/JEAN-PAUL BEAUBIER 
CLARKE, GENERAL JEREMY 
DOUBLE TROUBLE 
TIGERSTRYKE 
KILLSPREE 
YETI III 
VINDICATOR II/HEATHER MCNEIL HUDSON 
ARCADE 
MISTER NICE (FB only) 
KERRIDGE, CARL (BTS) 

Other characters: 
Clive 
Klaus 
Ritchie Ward (dies) 
Raul (also in FB) 
Belmonde, Raymonde (FB only) 
Belmonde, Max (also in FB) 
Mariel (BTS) 


Summary: Though Alpha Flight is disbanded, Department K is still dealing with the after effects of the team. Case in point, Northstar. His goings-on in public, living the celebrity life abroad, has finally ticked Gen. Clarke off enough, and he sends Weapon P.R.I.M.E. off to take him down. But Northy has bigger problems, namely someone's been leaking a secret from his past to a reporter, who then turns up dead, with all signs pointed at Northstar as being the one who killed him! 


Flashbacks: 1) Internal to the story, showing Northstar thinking back on the discussion with his pal Raul the night prior. 

2) Max being warned by Mr Nice (who appears partially in shadow). 

3) Northstar as a boy, meeting Raymonde, then becoming a professional skiier. This is, as far as I know, the earliest chronological stuff for Northy. 


Continuity notes: Northstar mentions having quit Alpha Flight, and it's also mention the team has disbanded, putting this after the AF's first volume. 

The character previously listed as KILLJOY II is now called KILLSPREE in this mini. 

Goofs: The Bullpen Bulletins' borderline blather claims the four covers of this mini form together to make one big picture. Try as I might, I could never get that to happen, it's just four random shots of Northy on a black background. 


------------------------------------ 
NORTHSTAR #2 [May 1994] 
Ecrivain: Simon Furman 
Artiste: Dario Carrasco, Jr. 
Inks: Mark McKenna & Brian Kane 
"Fast and Furious!" 

Cast: 
NORTHSTAR/JEAN-PAUL BEAUBIER 
ARCADE 
VINDICATOR II/HEATHER MCNEIL HUDSON 
KERRIDGE, CARL (BTS) 

Other characters: 
Mariel (also in FB) 
Yves (BTS in FB) 
Russian Circus (One-Eyed Strongman, Stalin lookalike/lion tamer, Clown, Fishnet-wearing knife-thrower lady, fire eater) 

Summary: Northstar heads to Paris, where he searches for an old friend, a woman named Mariel. She's been kidnapped by Arcade, who is working for a mysterious benefactor who happens to be the guy who also killed the reporter from the previous issue. There's a lot of running around, and clowning around, as he faces robotic mimes (who may or may not be more than meets the eye). 

Flashback: Northstar with Mariel, years ago. This is probably during his skiing years, putting the FBs of his history in this mini is roughly chronological order! 


------------------------------------ 
NORTHSTAR #3 [June 1994] 
Clown: Simon Furman 
Sword Swallower: Dario Carrasco, Jr. 
Strong Men: Tim Dzon & Danny Bulanadi 
"The Quick and the Dead!" 

Cast: 
NORTHSTAR/JEAN-PAUL BEAUBIER 
ARCADE 
DOUBLE TROUBLE 
TIGERSTRYKE 
KILLSPREE 
YETI III 
VINDICATOR II/HEATHER MCNEIL HUDSON (Off Panel) 
MISTER NICE 
SHORT FUSE 
BARB 
LINK 
SADISTA 
KERRIDGE, CARL (in shadows) 

Other characters: 
Russian Circus (One-Eyed Strongman, Stalin lookalike/lion tamer, Clown, Fishnet-wearing knife-thrower lady, fire eater, machine gun-totating trapeze artist girl) 


Summary: Northstar goes to Russia, where he faces Arcade's next challenge, involving a hypnotized circus... of death! Weapon P.R.I.M.E. is also back on his trail, to make matters even worse. 


Flashback: Northstar in his circus days, up through his time with Separatists. 



------------------------------------ 
NORTHSTAR #4 [July 1994] 
Writer: Simon Furman 
Penciler: Dario Carrasco, Jr. 
Inkers: Dzon & Patterson 
"Running on Empty!" 

Cast: 
NORTHSTAR/JEAN-PAUL BEAUBIER 
MISTER NICE 
SHORT FUSE 
BARB 
LINK 
SADISTA 
ARCADE (also in FB) 
VINDICATOR II/HEATHER MCNEIL HUDSON 
TIGERSTRYKE 
KERRIDGE, CARL (also in FB) 


Other characters: 
Graham (Carl's butler) 


Summary: The final stop is a mock-up of the Quebec City Bus Station Bombing, which, we find out, Northstar was behind long ago. There, in New Orleans, Northstar faces Arcade's own elite group of villains, who're only named by Northy as "Rejects". They're defeated with help from Guardian, Heather Hudson, who's been popping up in the mini from time to time helping out. Anyway, once they're defeated, Northy pushes himself to run, then drive, back to Canada, where he finally meets the guy who's been behind everything: Carl Kerridge. He has no ties to the Bus Station Bombing, nor anyone else. He's just a crazy anti-mutant bastard with a lot of money. Or maybe he's anti-homosexuals. It's ambigious enough. Anyway, he's also got a lot of strength. Or Northy's just tired. Anyway, he gets defeated and using skills taught to him by Wolverine long ago, Northstar defeats Carl and with the video footage from Arcade that proves he's innocent, he leaves the guy alive to face justice. If you really want to read this mini, there's better analysis over at UXM or anywhere. 


Flashback: Northstar in his Separatists Days, stopping a bus station bombing that he helped to cause. This takes place right immediately before he joined Alpha Flight, apparently. 

A video footage montage shows Carl paying Arcade off, prior to the start of the mini. 


Continuity notes: Tigerstryke's real name of "Mitchell" is revealed here. He's the only Weapon P.R.I.M.E. member to appear. 

Unlike Weapon PRIME, who got big captions denoting their names when they first appeared in the mini, these rejects of Arcade's? We merely learn their names when they talk to one another. As far as we know, Link's full codename could be "Lancelot Link Secret Bear" and Mr Nice could be "Gary Nicetti". 

------------------------------------ 



NORTHSTAR/JEAN-PAUL BEAUBIER 
**NORTH 1-FB 
**NORTH 2-FB 
**NORTH 3-FB 
**NORTH 4-FB 
M/CP 92/4-FB 
AF 10/2 
AF 52-FB 
AF 92-FB 
{UX 120} 
... 
AF 130 
**NORTH 1 
**NORTH 1-FB 
**NORTH 1 
**NORTH 2 
**NORTH 3 
**NORTH 4 
XF 116 
... 


CLARKE, GENERAL JEREMY 
... 
AF 130 
**NORTH 1 
AF2 19-FB 
... 

DOUBLE TROUBLE 
XFOR 22 
XFOR 23 
**NORTH 1 
**NORTH 3 

TIGERSTRYKE/MITCHELL 
(added last name) 
XFOR 22 
XFOR 23 
**NORTH 1 
**NORTH 3 
**NORTH 4 

KILLSPREE 
(formerly known as KILLJOY II) 
XFOR 22 
XFOR 23 
**NORTH 1 
**NORTH 3 

YETI III 
... 
XFOR 22 
XFOR 23 
**NORTH 1 
**NORTH 3 

VINDICATOR II/HEATHER MCNEIL HUDSON 
... 
AF 130 
**NORTH 1 
**NORTH 2 
**NORTH 3-OP 
**NORTH 4 
W2 83 
... 


ARCADE 
... 
XFOR 30 
**NORTH 4-FB 
**NORTH 1 
**NORTH 2 
**NORTH 3 
**NORTH 4 
BLAZE 8 
... 


**KERRIDGE, CARL 
NORTH 4-FB 
NORTH 1-BTS 
NORTH 2-BTS 
{NORTH 3} 
NORTH 4 


**MISTER NICE 
NORTH 1-FB 
NORTH 3 
NORTH 4 

**SHORT FUSE 
NORTH 3 
NORTH 4 

**BARB 
NORTH 3 
NORTH 4 

**LINK 
(current character listed as LINK should be relisted as LINK II, as this guy was first) 
NORTH 3 
NORTH 4 

**SADISTA 
NORTH 3 
NORTH 4

			*	*	*

Thread 32

Posted: 28 Jan 2007 11:38 am    Post subject: Wolverine: Origins 6-10, & misc
By Col_Fury

Wolverine: Origins #6 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: November 2006 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Dum Dum Dugan, Emma Frost, Maverick(Christopher Nord), Jubilee, Omega Red(Arkady Rossovich), Wolverines son 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: same night as last issue 
Wolverines on a Vietnamese cargo boat leaving Vietnam, still not quite healed from the Muramasa Blade. This reminds him of another time his healing factor didnt quite work 
Pg4-pg8-FB: about 40 years ago 
After a mission, Logan has been separated from the rest of his team. Technicians want to perform a test before he can leave, so he ingests a capsule of Carbonadium. He starts to feel ill immediately; some men enter the room and gun him down, killing him. 
Pg9-pg12: same night as pg3 
Thinking of Carbonadium reminds Wolverine of Maverick, so he decides to look for him. The coast guard is attempting to search the cargo boat hes on, so he steals their boat and drives away. 
Pg13-pg17: next day 
Dum Dum comes across the coast guard report about the stolen boat and figures that it was Wolverine who stole it, and that he will end up in Washington State. That night, Wolverine hitches a ride with a trucker after Emma Frost tells him over the phone that Maverick is in Queens, New York. 
Pg18-pg22: three days later 
Wolverine finds Maverick in a shelter for former mutants in Queens, and Jubilee happens to be there also. Suddenly Omega Red attacks, looking for Carbonadium! 

References: 
Jacket weather in New York and Washington State. 

The FlashBack is noted as being 1963 Dallas Texas in this issue, but in future issues its changed to 40 years ago. They probably noticed that 1963 didnt match up with the 1968 date given earlier for the Berlin mission seen in X-Men 5-7, and decided to change it. Also, its implied but not stated that Wolverine was the guy that actually killed John F. Kennedy! Aint that great? 

Wolverine: Origins #7 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: November 2006 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Omega Red, Jubilee, Maverick 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: same day as end of last issue 
Wolverine and Omega red chat. 
Pg4-pg15-FB: about 40 years ago 
After 21 &  hours, Wolverine finally starts to heal. Its discovered that Carbonadium slows the healing process! The technicians remove the Carbonadium from Logans guts and prepare to erase his memories as they have in the past.(by poking his brains with big needles and sending an electric current through them) Wolverine wakes up earlier than expected and kills one of the technicians. Before he kills the other one, hes surprised to find out that he has bone claws sticking out of his hands. He asks the technician who the boss is, but he doesnt know. He takes his case file and finds out that Carbonadium is synthesized in Berlin 
Pg16-pg22: same day as pg3 
Omega Red attacks and throws Wolverine out the window. 

References: 
So thats what Carbonadium does As well see next issue, this leads directly to the Berlin mission seen earlier in X-Men 5-7. 

Wolverine: Origins #8 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: January 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Maverick, Jubilee, Omega Red, Dum Dum Dugan, Black Widow(Natasha Romanova), Wolverines son. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6: same day as last issue 
Wolverine thinks of Jubilee while he climbs back up the building while his son watches from afar. Once inside he finds Maverick. 
Pg7pn1-pg7pn3-FB: just before pg1 
Maverick fights Omega Red 
Pg7pn4-pg7pn5(of 5): Now 
Maverick tells Wolverine what he missed. 
Pg8pn1-FB: just after pg7pn3-FB 
Maverick tells Omega Red that he doesnt have the Carbonadium Synthesizer. 
Pg8pn2(of 6)-pg9pn1: Now 
Maverick tells Wolverine where the Carbonadium Synthesizer is. 
Pg9pn2-FB: just after pg8pn1-FB 
Omega Red leaves with Jubilee. 
Pg9pn3-pg9pn6(of 6): Now 
Wolverine thanks Maverick and leaves. 
Pg10-pg14: Four days later 
Dum Dum interrogates a freighter ship captain and finds out that Wolverine has gone to Berlin. Meanwhile, Wolverine meets a contact to locate the Carbonadium Synthesizer. 
Pg15-pg16-FB about 40 years ago 
The Berlin Mission! See below 
Pg17pn1(of 4): Now 
Wolverine thinks to himself. 
Pg17pn2-pg21-FB: about 40 years ago 
The Berlin Mission! See below 
Pg22-pg23: Now 
The Black Widow confronts Wolverine! 

References: 
Instead of typing out bits of the Berlin Mission in several different places, Ill just put them all together at the end when I get to placing the FlashBack parts below. 

Wolverine: Origins #9 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: February 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Black Widow, Omega Red, Dum Dum Dugan, Jubilee 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: same night as end of last issue 
Wolverine and Black Widow chat about Carbonadium and that the one she has is a fake and the real one is in Brussels. 
Pg3-pg18-FB: many years ago 
Wolverine has been sent to Taras Romanov, Natasha Romanovas guardian, for training. He spends about two years with him and while hes being trained in the spy business, he in turn trains Natasha how to fight. Eventually, Logan kills Taras and set Natasha free. 
Pg19-pg23: same night as pg2 
Dum Dum and SHIELD arrive and attack Omega Red. Wolverine distracts them with the fake Carbonadium Synthesizer. 

References: 
From the dialogue, its pretty clearly established that the FlashBack takes place shortly after Itsu was killed at Jasmine Falls. Logan has been sent to Romanov by his mysterious employers, but theres no mention of Silver Fox. Since Logan learned how to disappear here, Im assuming that he did so after this FlashBack and settled in Canada with Silver Fox, where he was then recruited again by Sabretooth. 

Wolverine: Origins #10 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: March 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Dum Dum Dugan, Omega Red, Jubilee, Wolverines son 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg24: same night as last issue 
Everyone fights and Omega Red is captured by SHIELD. Wolverine finds an impaled Jubilee and Dum Dum calls for medical assistance. He then shoots Wolverine in the head several times to subdue him. Wolverines son arrives, stabs Dum Dum in the chest and disembowels Wolverine. 

References: 
Im assuming that no one actually dies in this issue. However; if Way has intended to kill off Dum Dum, its going to prove problematic. Hes appearing here in an arc thats clearly labeled as pre-Civil War. Hes also appearing in other titles that are clearly labeled as during-Civil War. We cant have it both ways! If its not stated otherwise in a future issue of Wolverine: Origins, Im going to have to say that Dum Dum gets better BTS, because I cant find a slot to open up to allow for all of Civil War to happen between pages of any of these ten issues so far: 

W: O 1 pg1-pg23: the day after the end of W3 40: Day 1 
* 
W: O 2 pg1-pg4: Day 2 
W: O 2 pg8-pg11: Day 2 
W: O 2 pg18-pg22: Day 2 
W: O 3 pg1-pg2: Day 2 
W: O 3 pg7-pg11: Day 2 
W: O 3 pg18-pg22: Day 2 
W: O 4 pg1-pg22: Day 2 
W: O 5 pg1-pg6: Day 2 
W: O 5 pg8: Day 2 
W: O 5 pg10pn4: Day 2 
W: O 5 pg16-pg22: Day 2 
W: O 6 pg1-pg3: Day 2 
W: O 6 pg9-pg12: Day 2 
* 
W: O 6 pg13-pg17: Day 3 
* 
W: O 6 pg18-pg22: Day 6 
W: O 7 pg1-pg3: Day 6 
W: O 7 pg16-pg22: Day 6 
W: O 8 pg7pn1-pg7pn3-FB: Day 6 
W: O 8 pg8pn1-FB: Day 6 
W: O 8 pg9pn2-FB: Day 6 
W: O 8 pg1-pg6: Day 6 
W: O 8 pg7pn4-pg7pn5: Day 6 
W: O 8 pg8pn2-pg9pn1: Day 6 
W: O 8 pg9pn3-pg9pn6: Day 6 
* 
W: O 8 pg10-pg14: Day 10 
W: O 8 pg17pn1: Day 10 
W: O 8 pg22-pg23: Day 10 
W: O 9 pg1-pg2: Day 10 
W: O 9 pg19-pg23: Day 10 
W: O 10 pg1-pg24: Day 10 

Including Wolverine vol3 36-40, were looking at about two weeks post-HoM, with no breaks in story. Wolverine keeps going from one lead to another, and Dum Dum is keeping a constant trail on him. Theres really no where to insert a break to fit in other appearances. 

For the FlashBacks, a quick placement suggestion: 

Black Widow/Natasha Romanova 
 
UX 268-FB (08/41) 
* W: O 9-FB 
W2 -1 
 

And now, the Berlin Mission! 

X-Men #5-FB pg10pn1-pg10pn3 
Sabretooth checks up on Wolverine before they begin the mission.(repeated with no new information in W: O 8-FB pg15) 

Wolverine: Origins #8-FB pg16pm1-pg16pn4 
Team-X approaches the building and goes up on the roof, and Sabretooth hands out the orders. Wolverine glances at Maverick. 

X-Men #7-FB pg3pn2-pg3pn5 
Team-X discusses their chances.(pg3pn5 is repeated in W: O 8-FB pg16pn5 with no new information) 

Wolverine: Origins #8-FB pg17pn2-pg19 
Wolverine has found the Carbonadium Synthesizer & Maverick has found Janice. When they meet Wolverine interrogates Maverick as to who hes working for, but Maverick has no idea what Wolverine is talking about. Wolverine tells Maverick to hide the Synthesizer, but before he can give it to him Sabretooth arrives with Omega Red behind him. 

X-Men #5-FB pg18-pg19pn2-pn3 
Team-X runs through the hallways with Janice as Omega Red chases them.(repeated in W: O 8-FB pg20pn1-pg20pn2, no new information) 

Wolverine: Origins #8-FB pg20pn3-pg20pn4 
Maverick glances at Wolverine as he thinks. 

X-Men #6-FB pg5-pg6 
Creed shoots Janice, Wolverines upset, and they all jump out the window.(bits repeated in W: O 8-FB pg20pn5-pg21, no new information) 

X-Men #7-FB pg6 
Team-X in the water 

Wolverine vol2 #60-FB pg12-pg13 
Wraith picks up Team-X. 

Wolverine vol2 #61-FB pg9pn4-pg10pn4 
Team-X fights Omega Red together. 

X-Men #6-FB pg14 
Team-X disbands at the end of the Berlin Mission. 

From this, a placement suggestion: 

Maverick/Christopher Nord/"David North" 
X 5-FB pg10pn1-pg10pn3 
*W: O 8-FB pg16pm1-pg16pn4 
X 7-FB pg3pn2-pg3pn5 
*W: O 8-FB pg17pn2-pg19 
X 5-FB pg18-pg19pn2-pn3 
*W: O 8-FB pg20pn3-pg20pn4 
X 6-FB pg5-pg6 
X 7-FB pg6 
W2 60-FB 
W2 61-FB 
X 6-FB pg14 
X 5 
 

Some more recent fun: 

Wolverine vol3 #50-FB pg15-pg16 
Logan and Silver Fox GET IT ON while Sabretooth watches. 

Wolverine: Origins #5-FB pg11 
Logan and Silver Fox eat dinner, then Logan goes out. 

Wolverine: Origins #5-FB pg10pn3 
Sabretooth stabs Silver Fox. 

Wolverine vol3 #50-FB pg17 
Logan returns home and finds Silver Foxs body. 

Wolverine: Origins #5-FB pg12pn1 
Logan stares at Silver Foxs mutilated body. 

Wolverine vol3 #50-FB pg18pn1 
Logan carries Silver Foxs body into town. 

Wolverine: Origins #5-FB pg12pn2-pg12pn3 
Logan finds Sabretooth and they fight. 

Wolverine vol3 #50-FB pg18pn2-pg19 
The fight spills out into the street. 

Wolverine: Origins #5-FB pg12pn4 
Sabretooth beats Logan with a 2x4. 

Uncanny X-Men #213-FB 
Logan lies in the snow unconscious from Sabretooths beating. 

Wolverine: Origins #5-FB pg12pn5 
Sabretooth drags Logan away, unconscious. 

Wolverine: Origins #5-FB pg9 
Mysterious Red Hat Guy talks to Logan, whos in a pit, while Sabretooth watches. 

Wolverine: Origins #5-FB pg13-pg15pn1 
Sabretooth taunts Logan in the pit and Logan snaps; he goes on to kill everyone in the town. 

*** 

For Sabretooth, SABRE 3-FB needs to be moved a little earlier. This happens while Team-X is still together, but Sabretooth is on a solo mission. Its currently placed after Team-X has disbanded, which cant work. 

UX 213-FB-BTS also needs to be moved earlier to coincide with Wolverines & Sabretooths first meeting. 

Sabretooth/Victor Creed 
*W3 50-FB pg15-pg16 
*W: O 5-FB pg10pn3 
*W: O 5-FB pg12pn2-pg12pn3 
*W3 50-FB pg18-pg19 
*W: O 5-FB pg12pn4 
**UX 213-FB-BTS 
*W: O 5-FB pg12pn5 
*W: O 5-FB pg9 
*W: O 5-FB pg13 
XU 3-FB 
SABRE 2-FB 
W2 61-FB pg12pn4-pg14 
**SABRE 3-FB 
W2 68-FB (late 68) 
X 5-FB pg10pn1-pg10pn3 
*W: O 8-FB pg16pm1-pg16pn4 
X 7-FB pg3pn2-pg3pn5 
*W: O 8-FB pg17pn2-pg19 
X 5-FB pg18-pg19pn2-pn3 
*W: O 8-FB pg20pn3-pg20pn4 
X 6-FB pg5-pg6 
X 7-FB pg6 
W2 60-FB 
W2 61-FB 
X 6-FB pg14 
S&M 1-FB 
S&M 2-FB 
S&M 3-FB 
W2 -1 
L:SS 
W2 126-FB-BTS 
X 33-FB 
CX 10/2 
{IF 14} 
 

And finally: 

Wolverine/Logan/James Howlett 
 
W2 113-FB 
W2 126-FB 
W2 5-FB 
L: PW pg1-pg9 
UX 257-FB 
*BLADE3 5-FB 
X:TF 2 (1936) 
X:TF 3 (1936) 
W2 106-FB 
UX 268-FB (08/41) 
W2 34-FB (06/06/44) pg8pn2-pg8pn3, pg13pn3-pg14, pg21 
W2 78-FB (06/06/44) 
W2 103-FB 
W2 169-FB 
W3 40-FB pg2-pg6 
L: PW pg10-pg49 
W3 40-FB pg7-pg14 
W3 40-FB pg16-pg18 
W3 38-FB pg11-pg13 
W3 40-FB pg19pn6-pg20pn2 
W3 38-FB pg14-pg18 
*W: O 9-FB 
W2 65-FB 
*W2 47-FB 
*W3 50-FB pg15-pg16 
W: O 5-FB pg11 
*W3 50-FB pg17 
W: O 5-FB pg12pn1 
*W3 50-FB pg18pn1 
W: O 5-FB pg12pn2-pg12pn3 
*W3 50-FB pg18pn2-pg19 
W: O 5-FB pg12pn4 
UX 213-FB 
W: O 5-FB pg12pn5 
W: O 5-FB pg9 
W: O 5-FB pg13-pg15pn1 
W: O 3-FB pg3-pg6 
W: O 3-FB pg12-pg17 
W2 61-FB pg12pn4-pg14 
W: O 2-FB pg5-pg7 (1968) 
W: O 2-FB pg12-pg17 (1968) 
W2 68-FB (late 68) 
W2 61-FB pg8 
W2 9-FB-FB-BTS 
*W: O 6-FB 
*W: O 7-FB 
X 5-FB pg10pn1-pg10pn3 
*W: O 8-FB pg16pm1-pg16pn4 
X 7-FB pg3pn2-pg3pn5 
*W: O 8-FB pg17pn2-pg19 
X 5-FB pg18-pg19pn2-pn3 
*W: O 8-FB pg20pn3-pg20pn4 
X 6-FB pg5-pg6 
X 7-FB pg6 
W2 60-FB 
W2 61-FB 
X 6-FB pg14 
UX 228-FB 
UTSM -1 
M/CP 72 
 
Weapon X 
 
M/CP 84 (20-24) 
W2 34-FB pg5pn3, pg18pn4-pg18pn5, pg5pn4-pg5pn5 
AF 33-FB pg14pn1-pg14pn2 
AF 2 -1-FB pg9pn4-pg9pn5 
AF 33-FB pg14pn3-pg19pn4 
AF 2 -1-FB pg11 
AF 3/2 
AF2 -1-FB pg12-pg21 
AF2 -1 
W2 -1 
FURY 1-FB 
UX 140-FB 
UX 147-FB 
AF 52-FB 
W/C 
W: BR-FB 
W/NF-FB 
BFF: BGL 1 
BFF: BGL 2 
BFF: BGL 3 
L: SS 
AF SPECIAL 
AF 127/2-FB 
W2 119-FB 
W2 120-FB 
W2 121-FB 
W2 126-FB 
W '97-FB 
W2 144-FB 
{H2 180} 
 

As far as I can tell, this is everything for Wolverine after Origin leading up to his first appearance. 

Until the next issue of Origins comes out.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

Last edited by Col_Fury on 29 Jan 2007 10:41 pm; edited 2 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2007 12:29 pm  
By Somebody

Ummm... if W36-40 & W:O1-10 are continuous, and run to two weeks post-HoM, how is this fitting in with other appearances like Day After, X177-179, X 186, any UX/NewAv appearances in the timeframe, etc? And *spits* Generation M #2 for Jubilee (although she was so mangled in there, being given a recent history completely at odds with the comics, and was so out of character.....)

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2007 05:39 pm    
By Col_Fury

I don't think Wolverine *immediately* ran off once his memories came back, I think he ran off once things cooled down. Meaning shortly after HoM, however long 'shortly' is... 

The start of W3 36 is fairly free-standing. Over the phone, Emma mentioned to Wolverine 'everything that's happened lately,' which I would think includes Day After, X177-179, X 186, etc. Also, the world doesn't find out that Wolverine has regained his memories until Emma Frost tells everyone in issue 36, so there's no rush in that regard. So no, W3 36 - W: O 10 don't start immediately after HoM, but I'd try to keep it as close to it as we can. 

As for Jubilee, like you said she's been so mangled lately, I haven't even given it any thought. She's a social worker? Really? Since when? 

*** 

Of course, I forgot to include BLADE3 5-FB above. It shows Wolverine in New York in the 1930's meeting a young Blade. I've opted for the first half of the 30's, after his LLL FlashBacks. 

*** 

I realized that I forgot to include a suggested update for Silver Fox, and noticed that W2 47-FB is in hers, but not Wolverine's. The FlashBack shows Logan & Silver Fox dealing with their rabid dog. 

I've edited Wolverine's appearance list above to include a placement suggestion for both of these, and here's a suggested update for Silver Fox: 

Silver Fox II/ 
W2 65-FB 
W2 47-FB 
W3 50-FB pg15-pg16 
W: O 5-FB pg11 
W: O 5-FB pg10pn3 
W3 50-FB pg17 
W: O 5-FB pg12pn1 
W3 50-FB pg18pn1 
W2 61-FB-BTS 
{W2 50}
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jan 2007 06:42 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Col_Fury. Does anyone know how many issues of Wolverine: Origins are supposed to continue without continuity breaks?
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jan 2007 10:48 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
References: 
Im assuming that no one actually dies in this issue. However; if Way has intended to kill off Dum Dum, its going to prove problematic. Hes appearing here in an arc thats clearly labeled as pre-Civil War. Hes also appearing in other titles that are clearly labeled as during-Civil War. We cant have it both ways! If its not stated otherwise in a future issue of Wolverine: Origins, Im going to have to say that Dum Dum gets better BTS, because I cant find a slot to open up to allow for all of Civil War to happen between pages of any of these ten issues so far:  
<<<

Allright, help me out here: Where is it clearly labeled that W:O is Pre-Civil War? I must be overlooking it...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jan 2007 04:54 pm    
By Col_Fury

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Where is it clearly labeled that W:O is Pre-Civil War? 
<<<

Issues 4 & 5 of Wolverine: Origins have an editor's box under the credits(not on the recap page, but a couple of pages into the story) telling us that this takes place before Civil War #1. 

Also, when Emma Frost tells the Avengers that Wolverine has regained his memories,(in W3 36) Iron Man & Captain America are standing side by side in Avengers Tower. Later, Captain America shows up, under government orders, to take down Wolverine in issue 3, 4, & 5. I don't se any of this happening after Civil War #1... 

It's sloppy editing. How hard is it to check around the office to see if anyone's using a character? Especially when the series you're working on is set in the recent past? 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Does anyone know how many issues of Wolverine: Origins are supposed to continue without continuity breaks? 
<<<

I wish I knew.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jan 2007 10:22 pm
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Issues 4 & 5 of Wolverine: Origins have an editor's box under the credits(not on the recap page, but a couple of pages into the story) telling us that this takes place before Civil War #1. 
<<<


I see now...and they did that because Cap appeared in those two issues. Well, in my opinion, a break must be inserted somewhere in the pages of W:O, to accomodate CW and Dugan's appearances there. Issues 4 and 5 must be "Pre-CW" going by the editor's notes, so how about this: 

W:O 6 pgs 1-12: Logan is stowing away on a Vietnamese cargo boat. The cut from the Muramasa blade is still fresh. Logan jumps ship onto a Coast Guard ship and steals it while the Coast Guard are investigating the Vietnamese cargo boat. 

W:O 6 pgs. 13-14: Dugan is in the Central Records office at S.H.I.E.L.D. and comes across the report of the stolen Coast Guard boat. He figures out it was Logan. He tells the SHIELD lackey, "Put me in touch with the Seattle Field Office. NOW." 

BUUUUTTTTT....Civil War occurs. The public outcry forces SHIELD and the White House to switch from worrying about Wolverine to dealing with the aspect of superhero registration. Logan puts aside his personal quest to find his son to help out with the fallout from Stamford. 

CW 1: Wolverine attends the "superhero conference" in the Baxter building. Captain America rebels against SHIELD. 

W3 42-47: Wolverine goes on a personal quest to take down Nitro, and then to take down the CEO of Damage Control Inc. Meanwhile... 

New Avengers #21: Cap starts up the resistance. He beats up Dugan and a Cape Killer squadron. 

Captain America vol. 5 #22: Dugan appears here shortly after New Avengers #21, (his injuries still show). 

Somewhere in here, "Agents of Atlas" occurs as well, (I didn't pick up this mini-series). 

W:O 6 pgs. 15-17: Logan is in eastern Washington State, (we're supposed to believe he's there because he just got off the boat in Seattle and is making his way back east, but we could just say he made his way to Washington State for some other reason...and when he took care of whatever he meant to do there, he decided it was time to resume his quest). Logan telepathically contacts Emma, and she tells him that the man he seeks, (Maverick) is in NYC. Logan catches a ride with a truckdriver. 

W:O 6 pgs. 18-22: Logan's in NYC and he meets up with Jubilee and Omega Red. 

W:O 7-10: Dugan has resumed his hunt for Logan, and the storyline ends with his demise. 

All of this is dependent on Dugan truly being dead, but I believe that's how W:O 10 is supposed to be read, (that he was indeed killed)...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Jan 2007 11:33 pm    
By Col_Fury

If Dum Dum is dead... 

That could work. I like it!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Jan 2007 12:30 am    
By jephyork
Director

Doesn't "Origins" #10 still show Wolvie with his Muramasa wound? If so, we'd be hard-pressed to put a storyline (W3 #42-48) where he's burned down to bare bone by Nitro and regenerates, in-between the issue where he's wounded and the issue where he's shown as still wounded. Unless we're supposed to believe that he regenerated the wound. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Jan 2007 03:47 am    
By Col_Fury

Good point Jeph; Wolverine is shown shirtless at the end of Wolverine: Origins #10, after Dum Dum is impaled, and he still has the Muramasa scar on his chest. 

Of course, in Wolverine 42-48, Wolverine regenerates from his skeleton. When he's completely healed he's naked and has no scar on his chest. 

If Dum Dum is dead it creates a problem, obviously. But if Wolverine: Origins 11 doesn't reveal Dum Dum to have survived I see a number of options.(yes, some are silly) 

1. 
Dum Dum's not dead. He and Wolverine are lying on the floor next to each other, perhaps Wolverine's blood mixed with Dum Dum's and he healed. This frees him up to appear in Agents of ATLAS and Captain America, and all of Wolverine: Origins so far is still pre-Civil War. 

2. 
Dum Dum is dead, and that's an LMD appearing in Agents of ATLAS and Captain America. All of Wolverine: Origins so far is still pre-Civil War. 

3. 
Dum Dum's not dead, that was an LMD that Wolverine's son impaled. Perhaps Dum Dum realized it would be a dangerous mission and sent an LMD of himself just to be safe. The real Dum Dum appears later in Agents of ATLAS and Captain America, and all of Wolverine: Origins so far is still pre-Civil War. 

4. 
Dum Dum is dead, and things happen as Kevin suggested. We write off Wolverine's scar as an art error, or something that re-scarred some time after his body regenerated from scratch. 

If the issue is not addressed in the comics, what's the best option to take? Refusing to acknowledge a character is dead? Saying he's an LMD? Or ignoring a scar that Ramos 'forgot' to draw when Wolverine regenerated from nothing and call it an art error? 

I'd rather that Dum Dum not be dead of course, but if he is, I think the 'art error' option is the best way to go. 

Thoughts?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Jan 2007 10:05 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
2. 
Dum Dum is dead, and that's an LMD appearing in Agents of ATLAS and Captain America. All of Wolverine: Origins so far is still pre-Civil War.  
<<<

Really not fond of this "LMD" explanation...I'm having a hard enough time accepting some of Fury's appearances as LMD's... 

Okay, here's the thing about the Muramasa blade: It's my understanding it's a magical weapon, am I correct? In W:O 6, Logan comments about the scar, "I got plenty of scars...but looks like this one's gonna be on the outside." So I believe Way's intention is that this scar is going to be permanent. If that's the case, and Marvel editorial mandates it, I suspect other writers will catch up with this scar appearing on Logan's chest in due time. 

So, if Logan regenerated completely from a skeleton in W3 42-47, (which was somewhat absurd in and of itself) it's possible the scar magically reappeared later on, (I can picture Logan waking up one morning to see it's back). That's the great thing about magic, it doesn't have to make sense. 

Now, having said all that, I'm willing to admit that I'm just speculating here, and I suppose we'll just have to wait till the next issue comes out, (going by our luck, Dugan won't even be mentioned in it, leaving us in suspense as to his fate...)
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Jan 2007 11:35 am    
By jephyork
Director

Quote: 
>>>
If the issue is not addressed in the comics, what's the best option to take? Refusing to acknowledge a character is dead? 
<<<

If it's never addressed again, then we never received confirmation that he DID die -- so there's no problem in assuming he lived. 

As for the scar -- wasn't it healing up when we saw in in #10? If so, I'd be inclined to believe that Way intends for it to go away on its own, albeit slowly, over the course of his run. We'll see, I suppose. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Feb 2007 03:48 pm    
By Somebody

jephyork wrote: 
>>>
If it's never addressed again, then we never received confirmation that he DID die -- so there's no problem in assuming he lived. 
<<<

Looks like we might have that exact scenario: 


Daniel Way wrote: 
>>>
One character that we probably won't be seeing again in "Origins," for at least a long while is Dum Dum Dugan, who appeared to have received a mortal wound when Wolverine's son stabbed him in the chest at the end of issue #10. "I can tell you that Marvel is in the business of creating characters not knocking them off, at least not forever," Way stated. "So, I'm sure Dum Dum Dugan will pop back up beside Marvel characters who have bounced back from a lot worse than stab wounds in the chest. I think we toned down that scene a bit; when I originally wrote it I believe he got it in the neck." 
<<<

I suspect from that paragraph that it was certainly an intended death, and that anyone reading only Wolverine: Origins might well think he is dead, but someone finally caught the timeline problem BTS and had it left ambiguous. 

As before, we shall see...

			*	*	*

Posted: 02 Feb 2007 05:00 pm    
By Col_Fury

Thank you, Somebody! 

That's enough for me, the writer says that Dum Dum's not dead. Therefore, it's safe to say that all of Wolverine: Origins so far is still pre-Civil War. 

Later in that interview, Way mentions that the next arc picks up shortly after the end of issue 10. Hopefully though, there will be a break somewhere to accomodate for other books.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Feb 2007 11:20 pm    
By JLH

Guess who appeared in a book recently, taking place post-CW, and was not dead in it? I'll give you a hint, rhymes with Bum-Bum.

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Mar 2007 05:09 pm    
By Col_Fury

JLH wrote: 
>>>
Guess who appeared in a book recently, taking place post-CW, and was not dead in it? I'll give you a hint, rhymes with Bum-Bum. 
<<<


And in case there's any doubt, in this week's New Joe Fridays: 

The Guvnor wrote: 
>>>
Can you offer an explanation as to why Dum Dum Dugan was alive and well in Iron Man yet he was killed a month or so ago in Wolverine: Origins.  
<<<

Joe Q wrote: 
>>>
Yes, The Guvnor, Dum-Dum was stabbed in Wolverine: Origins but not killed.  
<<<

Yay!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 10 Mar 2007 07:59 pm    
By jephyork
Director

I was just on my way here to post this very thing. Yay! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 33

Posted: 12 Mar 2007 03:21 am    Post subject: Lethal Foes of Spider-Man #1-4
By JLH

Time for the start of a web-slide of Spidey Gap tales! 

------------------------------------ 
THE LETHAL FOES OF SPIDER-MAN #1 [Sept 1993] 
Writer: Danny Fingeroth 
Penciler: Scott McDaniel 
Inker: Brad Vancata 
"Chapter One: Deadly Reunion" 

Cast: 
DOCTOR OCTOPUS/OTTO OCTAVIUS 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
ANSWER/AARON NICHOLSON (also in FB) 
HARGROVE, ELIAS 
HARDSHELL/LEILA DAVIS 
VULTURE/ADRIAN TOOMES 
BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 
RHINO/ALEX O'HIRN 
STEGRON/VINCENT STEGRON 
KINGPIN/WILSON FISK (FB only (BTS in part)) 
SCHEMER/RICHARD FISK (BTS in FB only) 

Other characters: 
Michael Gerdes (Otto's lawyer) 
Maggie (women's prison guard) 
Guardsmen 

Summary: Despite legal manueverings to stop it, Doctor Octopus' beloved arms are destroyed. Both sets, in fact. But the microchip allowing him to control the newer Adamantium ones remains active somehow, allowing the bodiless living energy of the villain known as the Answer to mentally communicate with Ock! A deal is struck, Answer will aid Ock in rebuilding his arms to escape the Vault, and he'll help him bring to life the answer to the question of how to give him physical form again. To do both, they'll need a specific device from the US Atomic Research Center, where it all began for Ock. So, Otto contacts his evil lawyer, who contacts Doc Ock's cousin, a man named Hargrove, who still owes Ock for his help in covering up some embezzling years ago, and despite misgivings and fears, gets a job with said company in an effort to gain the device. 

Meanwhile, Leila Davis is released from Ryker's. She immediately re-teams with Boomerang and Rhino, along with the Vulture, in picking up her nearly lucrative role as mastermind behind an unnamed aspect/offshoot of the Sinister Syndicate. Each has their own goal in making much money illegally: Rhino to help his relatives in Eastern Europe, Boomerange to gain revenge on the Beetle, Vulture to cure his cancer, and Leila to avenge her dead husband, the Ringer. Their first target? The US Atomic Research Center! 

Of course, Peter Parker is going there also, to take some pictures to go with the "destruction of Ock's arms" story. Can you say "they're all on a collision course with wackiness"? Of course you can. Leila uses her new armor to take on the persona of Hardshell, and joins the trio of villains in capturing a Nuclear Blaster, which happens to be what Hargrave is supposed to steal for Otto! Spider-Man attempts to stop them, but fails, and if not for Hargrave's help, he'd be toast as well. Speaking of toast, the blaster is fired off in Central Park during the villains' getaway, and the stray blast hits a random vagrant... who turns out to the dinosauric Stegron, the blast returning him to his original form once more! 


Flashback: The Answer reveals his origin. He was the answer man for Wilson Fisk and his son, Richard, when they lived in Vegas and ran HYDRA. They needed someone to be a guinea pig for an experiment to grant super-powers, and he volunteered. It appeared to do nothing to him. Soon, Kingpin went back to New York, and Answer stayed with him. Years later, while fighting enemy assassins, his powers kicked in. The next day they were gone, Then a few weeks later, they kicked in again. It seems the power given was to solve any problem by creating a temporary superpower to solve it. Informing the Kingpin of this success, he became the costumed Answer, fought Spidey for him, and then died reviving Dagger so she could aid Vanessa Fisk. But he remained alive as a discorporated being of energy, which was unconscious until a recent cosmic disturbance reawakened him. 


Continuity notes: Spider-Man #18-23 is mentioned as being "a few months past". The Deadly Foes mini is also said to be "a few months back". 

There's a generic remembrance style shot of Richard Fisk and the Kingpin in front of the HYDRA logo in one panel, but they don't actually appear in the "Answer gets his powers by their direct decree" scene. 

The event that reawakened Answer's consciousness? The implosion of the Multiverse Matrix in Excalibur #50. 

Otto's cousin is only called Hargrove in this mini. He's later given the first name of Elias in the "Funeral for an Octopus" mini. 

Vulture is still an old man dying of cancer here, placing it before ASM 386. 

Leila mentions the new Ringer running around, impersonating her husband's identity. 


Goofs: This is the only issue of the run with a Chapter designation in the title. Kind of ironic it has "Chapter One" in the title when Spider-Man Chapter One contradicts this mini so heavily, eh? 


------------------------------------ 
THE LETHAL FOES OF SPIDER-MAN #2 [Oct 1993] 
Writer: Danny Fingeroth 
Penciler: Scott McDaniel 
Inkers: Brad Vancata & Frank Turner 
"Hate is a Many Splendored Thing" 

Cast: 
DOCTOR OCTOPUS/OTTO OCTAVIUS 
ANSWER/AARON NICHOLSON 
STEGRON/VINCENT STEGRON 
BEETLE/ABNER RONALD JENKINS 
HARGROVE, ELIAS 
VULTURE/ADRIAN TOOMES 
HARDSHELL/LEILA DAVIS 
BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 
RHINO/ALEX O'HIRN 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 

Other characters: 
Michael Gerdes 
Guardsmen (only Ernie is named) 

Summary: Stegron saves a couple from a mugging by killing the robbers, only to eat the people he saved, as well. The Beetle, having been on the run from prison for an indetermined amount of time, finds his funds low after paying off everyone who might know his secret identity. So he decides to call up some old criminal buddies and get a new gang together. Nobody wants to join forces with him, but he does learn about Leila's team and their recent theft. He dons his armor again and decides to go after them. This leads to him spotting Stegron as he fights against Spider-Man in the Natural History Museum. Beetle explains his situation, about talks him into not killing Spidey, instead teaming up with him to use the Web-Slinger as a pawn in his attempt to get revenge on his old pals. 

At the Vault, thanks to mental assistance by the Answer and by tricking an enterprising young Guarsman, Doctor Octopus creates a device able to recorporeate Answer into physical form. Answer tries to backstab Ock, but thanks to that computer chip, their mental bond remains, with Ock having the upper hand... err, brain. He's forced to help Otto escape from prison. And once out, Ock sets about rebuilding his arms. 

Elsewhere, Leila informs her team of an offer of a billion bucks for the Nuclear Blaster by A.I.M. Beetle and Stegron show up, and in an effort to offer a trade with them for the blaster, they offer over the chained and disabled Spider-Man! 


Continuity notes: Beetle contacts multiple criminals in an attempt to get a crew together, but we're not given the slightest idea who exactly he speaks to. Just imagine, he's probably talking to a lot of big time people here who could've had updated MCP listings if only they'd have spoken up! 


Calendar notes: Beetle's checkbook's most recent expense shows a date of 7/19 (the earliest one show is 6/29). 

------------------------------------ 
THE LETHAL FOES OF SPIDER-MAN #3 [Nov 1993] 
Writer: Danny Fingeroth 
Pencilers: Keith Pollard, David Boller 
Inkers: Ian Akin, Keith Aiken, Jim Amash 
"Power Struggle" 

Cast: 
DOCTOR OCTOPUS/OTTO OCTAVIUS 
ANSWER/AARON NICHOLSON 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
STEGRON/VINCENT STEGRON 
BEETLE/ABNER RONALD JENKINS 
VULTURE/ADRIAN TOOMES 
HARDSHELL/LEILA DAVIS 
BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 
RHINO/ALEX O'HIRN 
STRIKEBACK/ANTHONY "TONY" DAVIS 
SWARM/FRITZ VON MEYER 

Other characters: 
Guardsmen 


Summary: The trade off doesn't go as planned, leading to a full on free-for-all brawl between the various villains, all vying for the Nuclear Blaster. The distraction allows Spider-Man to escape, and for Beetle to flee with the Blaster, causing the others to chase after him. Meanwhile, Doctor Octopus has built a new set of arms, which aid him in getting the remains of his original arms from a lab in ESU. The Answer, still his semi-servant, keeps the Guardsmen at bay, and Spider-Man drops by, possibly drawn to the scene by Answer's need to be freed from Ock. Anyway, while Ock takes off with his goal, a containment capsule nearby is damaged, allowing a bee to get inside of it. Yet another collision course with wackiness occurs, when Ock is about to kill Answer, and the "Blaster, Blaster, who's got the Blaster?" brigade's internal struggle spills over, stopping him. I should mention, all the baddies want to sell the Blaster except for Stegron, who wants to use it to reclaim the Earth for the dinosaurs, and Vulture, who's under the impression it'll help cure his cancer. Spidey rejoins the fight, and just when you think things can't get complicated enough, a new person joins the festivities, a cyborg man named Strikeback! He seems to know Hardshell, and she him, but their connection will have to wait until next issue. Oh, did I mention the Swarm has been reborn again? 


Goofs: Ock goes back to his gaudy green and orange costume at the start of the issue for one whole scene. When the artists change, he returns to his more modern suits. 

Boomerang seems to act like he and Beetle haven't seen each other since "Deadly Foes", but Fingeroth appears to have forgotten the "Hero Killers" story in the Spidey Annuals a few years back. 

------------------------------------ 
THE LETHAL FOES OF SPIDER-MAN #4 [Dec 1993] 
Writer: Danny Fingeroth 
Penciler: David Boller 
Inkers: Brad Vancata, Jim Amash, Mike DeCarlo, Keith Aiken, Ian Akin 
"Re-Disunited" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
SWARM/FRITZ VON MEYER 
STRIKEBACK/ANTHONY "TONY" DAVIS 
HARDSHELL/LEILA DAVIS 
STEGRON/VINCENT STEGRON 
DOCTOR OCTOPUS/OTTO OCTAVIUS 
BEETLE/ABNER RONALD JENKINS 
VULTURE/ADRIAN TOOMES 
BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 
RHINO/ALEX O'HIRN 
HARGROVE, ELIAS 
ANSWER/AARON NICHOLSON 

Other characters: 
A police officer 


Summary: Uh, so, everyone is fighting everyone else. Strikeback reveals he's actually Hardshell's husband, once the villain named the Ringer, saved from his Scourge-induced death by AIM scientists to become an operative for them (Winter Sold-who?). He's now on his own, and is apparently a good guy, such as it is. As such, he tries to keep Leila from getting "revenge" on Beetle, which creates a conflict between them. Elsewhere, Doctor Octopus uses the remnants of his original arms to recreate them just as perfectly as they could be (so good as old you can easily ignore they were ever destroyed! How's that for an unchanging status quo?). Answer finally finds a way to overcome the chip control, and puts up a fight, though it doesn't do him much good. He's only saved from death by Hargrave, who finally gets the spine to stand up to his cousin. With the police nearly on the scene, Ock lets Hargrave live out of sentimentality, and destroys the computer chip, severing his bond with Answer, and departs, having gotten what he wanted. Elsewhere, the Nuclear Blaster goes off, neutralizing Swarm once more. All the fighting comes to a head as Strikeback takes Hardshell away, everyone else is defeated, and Spider-Man recovers the Blaster. 


Continuity notes: Dr Octopus mentions he has "urgent business that cannot be delayed", which is then footnoted by a box mentioning the full details can be found in Spider-Man Unlimited #3. 

Hargrave is apparently related to Ock's beloved mother. 

Strikeback's backstory is only told in dialogue (considering the art here, it's a blessing we're spared any visuals). He's easily killed off in a FB in Thunderbolts nearly a decade later. 


Goofs: On the final page, Spidey mentions his "Hunt May". 

------------------------------------ 

Finally, some MCP style stuff where I'm absolutely positive on the placements. 

Though I just noticed, are there some "Code of Honor" characters missing? The Ringer appears there, and despite the mini being in the MCP, his (and a few others') appearance isn't. 


SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
... 
WOSM 109 
ASM 385 
**LFSM 1 
**LFSM 2 
**LFSM 3 
**LFSM 4 
ASMU 3 
... 

HARGROVE, ELIAS 
**LFSM 1 
**LFSM 2 
**LFSM 4 
ASM:FO 1 
... 

DOCTOR OCTOPUS/OTTO OCTAVIUS 
... 
AF 121 
**LFSM 1 
**LFSM 2 
**LFSM 3 
**LFSM 4 
ASMU 3 
... 

BEETLE/ABNER RONALD JENKINS 
... 
DHAWK 30 
**LFSM 1 
**LFSM 2 
**LFSM 3 
**LFSM 4 
S-H2 59 
.... 

VULTURE/ADRIAN TOOMES 
... 
PPTSS 188 
**LFSM 1 
**LFSM 2 
**LFSM 3 
**LFSM 4 
ASM 386 
... 

BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 
... 
CA 413 
**LFSM 1 
**LFSM 2 
**LFSM 3 
**LFSM 4 
S-H2 59 
... 

RHINO/ALEX O'HIRN 
... 
AF 121 
**LFSM 1 
**LFSM 2 
**LFSM 3 
**LFSM 4 
SECDEF 12 
... 

ANSWER/AARON NICHOLSON 
(added real name) 
**LFSM 1-FB 
{PPTSS 91} 
PPTSS 92 
PPTSS 93 
PPTSS 94 
PPTSS 95 
PPTSS 96 
**LFSM 1-FB 
**LFSM 1 
**LFSM 2 
**LFSM 3 
**LFSM 4 
[Other stuff in the forums not yet on the MCP] 


KINGPIN/WILSON FISK 
... 
CA 147-FB 
**LFSM 1-FB-BTS 
CA 145-BTS 
... 
PPTSS 89 
**LFSM 1-FB 
M/TU 141 
... 


SCHEMER/RICHARD FISK 
... 
CA 147-FB 
**LFSM 1-FB-BTS 
CA 145-BTS 
... 


HARDSHELL/LEILA DAVIS 
(added this codename, since it was her first) 
[{TB 56-FB}] (move to later) 
DFSM 1 
DFSM 2 
DFSM 3 
DFSM 4 
**LFSM 1 
**LFSM 2 
**LFSM 3 
**LFSM 4 
**TB 56-FB (moved) 
Becomes BEETLE II/LEILA DAVIS 
TB 48 
... 


RINGER/ANTHONY "TONY" DAVIS 
DEF 51 
PPTSS 58 
CA 319 
Becomes STRIKEBACK/ANTHONY "TONY" DAVIS 
**LFSM 3 
**LFSM 4 
TB 56-FB 


STEGRON/VINCENT STEGRON 
(added real name) 
... 
ASM 166 
**LFSM 1 
**LFSM 2 
**LFSM 3 
**LFSM 4 
TS 20 
SENSM 13 
... 

SWARM/FRITZ VON MEYER 
... 
PPTSS 37 
**LFSM 3 
**LFSM 4 
**SECDEF 17-BTS (moved) 
**SECDEF 18 (moved) 
**SECDEF 19 (moved) 
SENSM 9-FB 
SENSM 9 
SENSM 10

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Posted: 11 Mar 2007 09:29 am    Post subject: Doctor Strange: The Oath (+ revised origin Dr. Strange)
By Frederic Krier

Doctor Strange: The Oath 1 
December 2006 

The Oath. Chapter One 
W: Brian K. Vaughan, P: Marcos Martin, I: Alvaro Lopez 

Appearances: Araa/Anya Corazon, Iron Fist/Daniel Rand, Doctor Strange II/Dr. Stephen Strange, Wong, Night Nurse, Brigand, unidentified shadowy figure [Nicodemus West], Oktid the Omnipotent [in FB], unidentified shop owner [in FB], four unidentified thugs, Flag Smasher imposter [BTS, see comments], unidentified colleagues and patients of Dr. Strange [in FB], Ancient One [in FB] 

Synopsis: Pg.1-5: One day. Nighttime. Pouring rain. Araa, who got hit by Flag Smasher's mace [see comments] and Iron Fist, who pulled his hammy fighting a bunch of ninjas are sitting in the waiting room of Night Nurse's underground superhero hospice, when Wong brings in Doctor Strange, who has been shot. Night Nurse tells Iron Fist and Araa to come back later, and Doctor Strange is put on the operating table straightaway. While his body is unconscious, Strange appears to Night Nurse in his astral form. 
Pg.6-7: Meanwhile, Brigand, who found breaking into the Sanctum Sanctorum harder than breaking into Baxter Building last year, tells his employer, a shadowy figure, that he shot Doctor Strange with a silver bullet, fired with the handgun he believes Hitler used to shot himself. His employer doubts that Doctor Strange is dead, but is nonetheless happy that Brigand returned with the serum he was supposed to be stealing anyway. 
Pg.8: Back at the clinic, Strange explains to Night Nurse that he's not a ghost, and proceeds to tell her about his medical history. Wong is ready to donate blood for Strange. 
Pg.9-10: FB to origin story [see comments] 
Pg.11-12: Night Nurse operates on Strange, while his astral projection flirts with her. Wong believes that this is all his fault. 
Pg.13-15: FB. One day. Autumn leaves on trees. While looking for his misplaced cloak of levitation, Strange instead finds a drug for treating brain tumors. He confronts Wong about it, who tells him he only has three months left to live. Strange is not willing to accept that, and believes he can find a cure. 
Pg.16-20: FB continues. Later that night, Strange and Wong follow some ley lines on the island of Manhattan, as described in a book by Dion Fortune, looking for an artifact that is supposed to be located in a Chinatown shop. While Wong fights off four street thugs, Strange uses the artifact to open a doorway to the dimension of Oktid the Omnipotent, an ancient god of suffering, who helds a legendary serum that could help Wong. Strange crosses the doorway and confronts Oktid. 
Pg.21-22: While Strange's astral form finishes relating how this got started, Wong collapses. Strange returns to his body on the operating table, and tells Night Nurse, that the serum contains the cure for cancer. 
Pg.23: FB to Strange, holding the serum in his hand, after the fight with Oktid. 

Doctor Strange: The Oath 2 
January 2007 

The Oath. Chapter Two 
W: Brian K. Vaughan, P+I: Marcos Martin 

Appearances: Doctor Strange II/Dr. Stephen Strange, Wong, Night Nurse, Jonas Hilt, Brigand, Diane [BTS], Reginald Pavlish [in FB], Nicodemus West 

Synopsis: Pg.1: The eye of Agamotto recaps the situation. 
Pg.2: One day. The shadowy figure from #1 analyses the serum found by Strange and finds out it's the cure for cancer. He tells Diane to summon an emergency gathering of the Overlords. 
Pg.3: Shortly after #1, pg.22: Strange gets up and thanks Night Nurse for her care. Night Nurse is not willing to let him leave so soon. 
Pg.4-5: FB to earlier that evening. Strange is confronted and shot by Brigand in his Sanctum Sanctorum. 
Pg.6-8: Night Nurse finally agrees to let Strange leave, but insists that she comes along. Strange, Wong and Night Nurse go to Jonas Hilt's medical research lab in the Bronx. Strange reveals that he has given Hilt, who he knows since they boarded together in Med School, a sample of Oktid's elixir for tests. 
Pg.9-10: FB to Strange, during his time as a chief surgeon. Strange refuses to help Reginald Pavlish, a community activist, who Strange treats as an uninsured castoff. He is confronted about it by Jonas Hilt, who wonders what happened to the guy who used to volunteer his weekends at the Brooklyn E.R.. 
Pg.11-12: FB to just after Strange's accident. Jonas Hilt visits Strange, and introduces him to Nicodemus West, the surgeon who saved Strange's hands from amputation. West tells Strange that he'll not be able to hold a scalpel again. Strange breaks into a fit of rage, while Jonas Hilt tries to calm him. As West leaves, Pavlish, sitting in a wheelchair outside of Strange's room, smiles when he sees the enraged Strange. 
Pg.13-15: Strange, Night Nurse and Wong find that the sample of the serum has disappeared and that Jonas Hilt has been shot, by the same weapon used to shoot by Brigand to shoot Strange. Strange suspects Baron Mordo to be behind this. 
Pg.16-22: Later that night. Strange, Wong and Night Nurse ride the train and discuss Mordo's possible involvement. Wong recalls how Mordo died of cancer, but Strange believes that his cancer may be less terminal than we once thought [see comments]. Strange magically stops the train just above the Harlem river, and tells Night Nurse and Wong to jump off the train. They're transported to a safe house hidde within the folds of reality's fabric, where they are attacked by robots, who look like Stark security droids. Wong and Strange easily defeat the robots, but Night Nurse is taken hostage by Brigand. 

Doctor Strange: The Oath 3 
February 2007 

The Oath. Chapter Three 
W: Brian K. Vaughan, P+I: Marcos Martin 

Appearances: Nicodemus West, Reginald Pavlish [in FB], Doctor Strange II/Dr. Stephen Strange, Wong, Night Nurse, the Marrakant hellguard, Phillip and other directors of Timely Pharmaceuticals, an unnamed employee of Timely Pharmaceuticals 

Synopsis: Pg.1: Recap of the two previous issues taken from the book of the Vishanti. 
Pg.2-3: FB. Years ago. One day. In a parking lot, Nicodemus West is confronted by Reginald Pavlish, who thanks West for ending Strange's career. Pavlish tells him he refuses to die, until he's seen Dr. Strange suffer as much as he has. 
Pg.4-12: Now. Immediately following the end of #2. Night Nurse manages to fight off Brigand, who is magically taken captive by Dr. Strange. Strange takes a journey into Brigand's mind, to find out who his employeer is. He is attacked by illusions of Nightmare, Dormammu and lots of other former foes, before Brigand finally reveals the true identity of his employer: Nicodemus West. Strange doesn't recognize West. 
Pg.13-16: Meanwhile, Nicodemus West, meets the board of directors of Timely Pharmaceuticals (he adresses them as the overlords), the company he's the C.E.O. off. The directors wish the serum to be eliminated, and to use his magic skills, which West hasn't used in years, to terminate Strange. They threaten West to make public why he doesn't practice the mystic arts anymore. 
Pg.17-18: Back in Brigand's extra-dimensional retreat, Strange now remembers who West was. Strange locks Brigand inside his own mind, to contemplate his crimes for an eternity. 
Pg.19: Later. West practices black magic at the Timely building. 
Pg.20-22: As Wong, Strange and Night Nurse return to the hospice, they find it in flames, attacked by, what seems to be a giant demon. 

Doctor Strange: The Oath 4 
March 2007 

The Oath. Chapter Four 
W: Brian K. Vaughan, P+I: Marcos Martin 

Appearances: Doctor Strange II/Dr. Stephen Strange, Wong, Night Nurse, Marrakant Hellguard, Nicodemus West, some sailors [in FB], Ancient One [in FB], unidentied inhabitants of the Himalayas [in FB], Reginald Pavlish [in FB], Phillip and an unidentified member of board of directors of Timely Pharmaceuticals [in FB] 

Synopsis: Pg.1-13: One day. Immediately following the end of #3. Strange reveals that the creature is actually worse than a demon: it's the Marrakant Hellguard, who incinerated every sorcerer supreme who confronted it since the 1500s. Strange attacks the creature, but it swallows his cloak of levitation, and grabs both Wong and Night Nurse, which reminds Strange, why he never joined the Avengers. Strange shoots the Hellguard with Hitler's mystically charged handgun, which he then dissolves into insects. Strange takes Night Nurse and Wong through a magic portal to Nicodemus West. West imprisons the trio with the emerald bands of Exador. He proceeds to tell Strange how he got his magical skills, while images of West's past appear in a mirror. 
Pg.14-15: FB. Months after Strange quit practicing surgery, West isn't able to help Strange's former patients, including Pavlish, which leads him into a depression and to alcoholism. West then spend several years trying to find Strange, which finally leads him to the Ancient One's retreat, just days after Strange left it. The Ancient One thinks West's quest is misguided, but accepts him as a disciple. 
Pg.16: Strange refuses to believe West's story, but West tells him the Ancient One chose him as a substitute for Strange, should Strange before becoming sorceror supreme. 
Pg.17: FB. West left the Ancient One's retreat before his studies were over. Arriving at the indian-tibetan border, he healed a small girl with his newly acquired magical knowledge. 
Pg.18: FB continues. Having returned to the US, West tries to magically cure Pavlish, which leads to Pavlish's head blowing up. Outside the window, we see two future members of the board of Timely, the one West called Phillip, as well as the only woman on the board. 
Pg.19-22: West concludes his story, and recalls how he was contacted, as he was on his way to the police, to confess the murder of Pavlish, by two ambitious young representatives of Timely, who had been following him since India. They were worried that magic could render irrevelant their own business, and struck a deal with West not to use his magical abilities for healing in exchange for a position in the company. Strange then bursts through the emerald bands, not noticing that Wong has a stroke, and smashes West's head against a mirror. West explains that he has to destroy the serum as it acts as a remedy for every single disease on the planet, making pharmaceutical research superfluous. While he strikes back at Strange, Night Nurse interrupts the fight, announcing that Wong has died. 

Doctor Strange: The Oath 5 
April 2007 

The Oath. Finale 
W: Brian K. Vaughan, P: Marcos Martin, I: Alvaro Lopez 

Appearances: Doctor Strange II/Dr. Stephen Strange, Wong, Night Nurse, Nicodemus West 

Synopsis: Pg.1-18: One day. Immediately after the end of #4. Night Nurse and Dr.Strange debate how to save Wong, who has suffered a cerebral edema. Strange emprisons West in mystical chains, but West escapes with the vial containing the elixir. Strange, who realizes this might be the only thing that could save Wong, finds West in Timely's executive washroom, where he was just about to pour the serum down the drain. After a brief exchange of views about West's incompetence as a sorceror, West flees to the roof, where he and Strange fight. Strange wins, thanks to Wong's training in martial arts [see comments]. West falls down the building, still holding the vial, and is killed, though he manages to cast an astral projection one moment before impact. One single drop of the serum is left, and West's projection mocks Strange about the choice he has to make: saving Wong or detaining the cure for all diseases. 
P.g19-22: 24 hours later. Wong awakens in the Sanctum Sanctorum and is greeted by Strange and Night Nurse. Strange believes that using the potion to save Wong was necessary, as he owed himself his life to Wong several times. Night Nurse then takes Strange out to look after his wounds, and reveals that she grabbed a memo from the board of Timely in West's lab, which reveals the implication of all the members. She has sent this to the SBC, the FDA and a certain lawyer who's used my services in the past. Strange then invites her to set up her hospice inside the Sanctum Sanctorum. She accepts, and the deal is sealed with a kiss. 

Comments: 
Oktid the Omnipotent presumably has no relationship the Oktid race that first appeared in Uncanny X-Men #369 (apart from the fact that they're both tributes to Steve Ditko of course). 

Hitler, of course, didn't commit suicide on Earth-616, but was incinerated by the Human Torch. Still, this is presumably not public knowledge, so Brigand might well believe that he shot himself with the handgun that appears here. 

The Flag Smasher that attacked Araa is presumably an imitator, like the one in YA/R #1. 

Dr. Strange tells West that he decided he needed training in the martial arts after he left the Ancient One, whereas Dr. Strange vol. II #56, Pg.7, p1, shows that he also had training in the martial arts during his first stay at the Ancient One's retreat. 

There are several new elements to the origin story added. First a break-down of the origin retelling in #1. 
Pg.9, p1: Strange refuses two patients, one african-american, one a blonde caucasian. This scene is new. 
p2: The car crash. Against a tree like in ST 115/2 (3:3)-FB BTS, though he's actually seen here (as in DRSTR3 45 (19:1); and there are more details added in DRSTR3 85 (16:1-3; Strange driving; 17:1 Strange climbing out of the wrecked car). In the origin retelling in DRSTR 169, there's no tree. 
p3: Strange is confronted by three surgeons, the bald one from ST 115/2 (3:4 - 3:6)-FB , as well as Nicodemus West and an unidentifid younger surgeon with brown hair. 
Pg.10, p1: Strange looks through googles at the Ancient One's retreat, he has just discovered. This a new scene. 
p2: Strange kneels before the Ancient One, and accepts to be his disciple. This is a new scene as well (in ST 115/2, he didn't kneel) 
p3: Strange in his original Ditko costume fighting against Mordo. This could be from any early fight with Mordo, my guess is ST 117/2. 

So my proposal for a revised origin would be: 
DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 
... 
DRSTR 169 (4)-FB 
ST 115/2 (2:7 - 2:8)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (5:1)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 2 (9-10)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 (9:1)-FB 
ST 115/2 (2:9 - 3:2)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (5:2 - 5:4)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (5:6)-FB 
*DRSTR3 85 (16:1  16:3)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (6:1)-FB 
*DRSTR3 45 (19:1)-FB ~ DRSTR:OATH 1 (9:2)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (6:2  6:3)-FB 
ST 115/2 (3:3)-FB-BTS [*] 
*DRSTR3 85 (17:1)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (7:1)-FB 
ST 115/2 (3:4 - 3:6)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (7:3)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 2 (11-12)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 (9:3)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (7:4)-FB 
ST 115/2 (3:7 - 3:8)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (8)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (9:2 - 9:3)-FB 
ST 115/2 (3:9 - 4:1)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (9:4  11)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 (10:1)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (12:1)-FB 
ST 115/2 (2:1) 
DRSTR 169 (12:2 - 13:1:1)-FB 
ST 115/2 (2:2 - 5:5) 
DRSTR 169 (15:1)-FB 
ST 115/2 (5:6) 
DRSTR 169 (15:2 - 15:4)-FB 
ST 115/2 (5:7 - 5:8) 
DRSTR 169 (16:1 - 16:4:2)-FB 
ST 115/2 (6:1 - 6:2) 
DRSTR 169 (16:5 - 17:1)-FB 
ST 115/2 (6:3)-BTS 
DRSTR 169 (17:2)-FB-BTS 
ST 115/2 (6:4 - 6:9) 
DRSTR 169 (17:4 - 17:6)-FB 
ST 115/2 (7  8:6) 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 (10:2) 
ST 115/2 (8:7) ~ *DRSTR2 56 (7:1) 

[*] switched this around: In DRSTR 169 (6:2-6:3)-FB Strange is imagining a fall through an eternal vortex, then shouting for help. In ST 115/2 (3:3) the carwreck is discovered by policemen, who call an ambulance. Strange then manages to stand up again in DRSTR3 85 (17:1). 

I'll post the rest of the placement suggestions tomorrow.

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Mar 2007 11:30 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Frederic Krier wrote: 
>>>
*DRSTR3 45 (19:1)-FB ~ DRSTR:OATH 1 (9:2)-FB 
ST 115/2 (8:7) ~ *DRSTR2 56 (7:1) 
<<<


We don't use the ~ for scenes that we've already seen. These subsequent appearances would just be ignored. 


watching: pink panther

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Mar 2007 12:47 pm    
By Col_Fury

Or more specifically, we don't use the ~ for duplicate FlashBacks. If two FlashBacks show the same thing we go with the earlier published one. 

I learned this when reconstructing Black Panther's origin... which is now in the archives.(I had to be reminded twice) It's in the Oct 2005 archives.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 11 Mar 2007 01:51 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Or more specifically, we don't use the ~ for duplicate FlashBacks. If two FlashBacks show the same thing we go with the earlier published one. 
<<<

Correct, but not just flashbacks. Presumably neither of the appearances here 


Quote: 
>>>
ST 115/2 (8:7) ~ *DRSTR2 56 (7:1)  
<<<

are flashbacks, but only ST 115/2 (8:7) gets listed in the Project. 

~ is used for concurrent appearances, meaning published simultaneously (i.e. in the same month, like many of the Infinity War appearances), or, rarely, for time travel stories. 


watching: shot in the dark

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Mar 2007 06:03 am    
By Frederic Krier

OK, sorry for using the ~. I decided to include both versions, because in the two cases I thought the new version added something. 
DRSTR2 56 (7:1)-FB (forgot to put "FB" after the two last flashbacks yesterday...) and ST 115/2 (8:7) both show us Dr. Strange studying at the Ancient One's retreat in the Himalayas, by juxtaposing a number of Strange figures in one panel. But DRSTR2 56 (7:1)-FB shows different actions than the earlier one - most notably, we see Strange's training in martial arts. 
BTW: The Ancient One is not pictured in ST 115/2 (8:7), even though the panel is included in his current entry in the MCP. 

The second case: on closer inspection, the car crash scene can even be broken down further. I would now suggest this order: 
DRSTR 169 (5:6)-FB (Strange thinks about the operation of Ms. Van Heusen) 
*DRSTR3 85 (16:1  16:3)-FB (Strange is speeding down the road) 
*DRSTR3 45 (18:3  18:5)-FB (he loses control of the car) 
DRSTR 169 (6:1)-FB (the car leaves the road, flies down a hill) 
*DRSTR3 45 (19:1)-FB (inside the car, Strange is pushed towards the window) 
*DRSTR3 85 (16:4)-FB (the car crashes against a tree) 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 (9:2)-FB (Strange bursts through the front window) 
DRSTR 169 (6:2  6:3)-FB (Strange imagines falling through an eternal vortex, shouts for help lying besides the car wreck) 
ST 115/2 (3:3)-FB-BTS (two policemen find the car wreck, call an ambulance) 
*DRSTR3 85 (17:1)-FB (Strange, while hurt, manages to stand up again) 

There are of course some discrepancies between the different versions of Strange's accident, f.i. the car looks different in every retelling, there's no tree in sight in DRSTR 169, but I don't think they're major. 
So the revised origin now looks like this: 

DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 
... 
DRSTR 169 (4)-FB 
ST 115/2 (2:7 - 2:8)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (5:1)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 2 (9-10)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 (9:1)-FB 
ST 115/2 (2:9 - 3:2)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (5:2 - 5:4)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (5:6)-FB 
*DRSTR3 85 (16:1  16:3)-FB 
*DRSTR3 45 (18:3  18:5)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (6:1)-FB 
*DRSTR3 45 (19:1)-FB 
*DRSTR3 85 (16:4)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 (9:2)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (6:2  6:3)-FB 
ST 115/2 (3:3)-FB-BTS [*] 
*DRSTR3 85 (17:1)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (7:1)-FB 
ST 115/2 (3:4 - 3:6)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (7:3)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 2 (11-12)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 (9:3)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (7:4)-FB 
ST 115/2 (3:7 - 3:8)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (8)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (9:2 - 9:3)-FB 
ST 115/2 (3:9 - 4:1)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (9:4  11)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 (10:1)-FB 
DRSTR 169 (12:1)-FB 
ST 115/2 (2:1) 
DRSTR 169 (12:2 - 13:1:1)-FB 
ST 115/2 (2:2 - 5:5) 
DRSTR 169 (15:1)-FB 
ST 115/2 (5:6) 
DRSTR 169 (15:2 - 15:4)-FB 
ST 115/2 (5:7 - 5:8) 
DRSTR 169 (16:1 - 16:4:2)-FB 
ST 115/2 (6:1 - 6:2) 
DRSTR 169 (16:5 - 17:1)-FB 
ST 115/2 (6:3)-BTS 
DRSTR 169 (17:2)-FB-BTS 
ST 115/2 (6:4 - 6:9) 
DRSTR 169 (17:4 - 17:6)-FB 
ST 115/2 (7  8:6) 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 (10:2)-FB 
ST 115/2 (8:7) 


For the general placement of this series: I think it's safe to say that it is supposed to take place before Civil War, and probably before Iron Fist adopts the Daredevil identity as well. It has to go after DD2 80 however, as Night Nurse's hospice is still intact there. The lawyer Night Nurse contacts in #5 then can't be Matt Murdock, who's under arrest (maybe it's Foggy). So here's the rest of my suggestions for placement: 

ANCIENT ONE 

DRSTR 169 (12:2 - 13:1:1)-FB 
{ST 115/2 (2:2 - 3:6)} 
DRSTR 169 (15:2 - 15:4)-FB 
ST 115/2 (5:7  8:6) 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 (10:2)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 4 (15)-FB 

ARAA/ANYA CORAZON 

SM/ARAA 1 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 
MSM2 6 

* BRIGAND 

*DRSTR:OATH 2-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 
*DRSTR:OATH 2 
*DRSTR:OATH 3 

DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR.STEPHEN STRANGE 

X-STATIX PRESENTS DEAD GIRL 5 
... 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 (13 - 20)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 (23)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 2 (4  5)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 
*DRSTR:OATH 2 
*DRSTR:OATH 3 
*DRSTR:OATH 4 
*DRSTR:OATH 5 
... 
MSM2 4 

*HILT, JONAS 

*DRSTR:OATH 2 (9 -10)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 2 (11 - 12)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 2 

IRON FIST/DANIEL RAND 

DD2 80 
... 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 
... 
DD2 82 

*MARRAKANT HELLGUARD 

*DRSTR:OATH 3 
*DRSTR:OATH 4 

NIGHT NURSE 

DD2 80 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 
*DRSTR:OATH 2 
*DRSTR:OATH 3 
*DRSTR:OATH 4 
*DRSTR:OATH 5 
[CIVIL WAR] 

*OKTID THE OMNIPOTENT 

*DRSTR:OATH 1-FB 

*PAVLISH, REGINALD 

*DRSTR:OATH 2 (9  10)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 2 (12)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 3-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 4 (14)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 4 (18)-FB 

*WEST, NICODEMUS 

*DRSTR:OATH 2 (11-12)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 (9:3)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 3-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 4 (14 - 15)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 4 (17 - 18)-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 
*DRSTR:OATH 2 
*DRSTR:OATH 3 
*DRSTR:OATH 4 
*DRSTR:OATH 5 

WONG 

X-STATIX PRESENTS DEAD GIRL 5 
... 
*DRSTR:OATH 1-FB 
*DRSTR:OATH 1 
*DRSTR:OATH 2 
*DRSTR:OATH 3 
*DRSTR:OATH 4 
*DRSTR:OATH 5

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Mar 2007 07:57 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
It has to go after DD2 80 however, as Night Nurse's hospice is still intact there. The lawyer Night Nurse contacts in #5 then can't be Matt Murdock, who's under arrest (maybe it's Foggy).  
<<<

Her hospice may have been intact, but it wasn't in use. DD2 80 ended with Night Nurse fleeing New York, as I recall, (after Matt was arrested). I suppose it's possible she returned to set up shop again, (though you would think she would've changed locations)... 

And yes, this definently has to be pre-Civil War...Night Nurse specifically treats patients who want to keep their identities a secret, and Arana wanted her identity kept secret, (prior to her being captured in Mrs. Marvel) and as mentioned, Iron Fist wasn't in his Daredevil "Civil War" outfit yet... 

But then again, that line about contacting a lawyer felt like it was meant to be reference to Matt Murdock...I wonder if this could be after Matt Murdock's return to New York after being a fugitive on the run, (which could be before Civil War ended)...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Mar 2007 12:42 pm    
By Frederic Krier

Quote: 
>>>
Her hospice may have been intact, but it wasn't in use. DD2 80 ended with Night Nurse fleeing New York, as I recall, (after Matt was arrested).  
<<<

Night Nurse is seen on a plane in DD2 80, with no further indication where's she's leaving to. The hospice here probably is in a new location, but it certainly wasn't in the Sanctum Sanctorum in DD2 80, which is why I would place her appearance here at some point after DD2 80.

			*	*	*

Posted: 12 Mar 2007 09:14 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Frederic, I'm a little confused about the sequence of events leading up to the beginning of issue #1. Would you list those in chronological order? I'm particularly unsure about what you list as page 2 of issue #2. Flashback? 

If this story is placed pre-CW (and even post-DD2 80), the possibility exists that it's before C&DP 28, in which case it could be the real Flag-Smasher noted in issue #1. 

Thanks for the analysis!
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Mar 2007 12:09 am    
By Frederic Krier

The sequence of events would be for Dr.Strange: 
#1, pages 13-20: Strange finds out about Wong's disease, they go to Chinatown, then Strange faces Oktid 
#1, pages 23: Strange has beaten Oktid 
(these two flashbacks take place a few days before the start of #1, it's not mentioned how long though) 
#2, pages 4-5: Strange is shot by Nicodemus West 
then we move to the beginning of #1. All the events following, excluding FBs, occur that same night until #5, Pg.18. 

#2, Pg.2 is not a flashback. Nicodemus West analyses the serum that Brigand brought him in #1, Pg.6-7. He summons the "overlords", who meet in #3, Pg.13-16. This all takes place on the same night Strange has been shot. It's not entirely clear if time passes at an equal speed between the two plot strings, but let's say it's a "meanwhile, back at the lab." 

Flag-Smasher: it could be the original, but as he was busy running a country at the time, I just think it's more likely that the guy who fought Araa was an imposter.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Mar 2007 05:59 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Frederic. I've placed OATH* before C&DP 28 to provide greater latitude in interpretation. I suppose a second Flag-Smasher wouldn't necessarily wait until the demise of the first to make trouble. Other placement issues are accommodated, such as Night Nurse after DD2 80 and Danny Rand prior to his assuming the Daredevil identity 24 days before the start of DD2 87. 

But it begs the question for the MCP listings -- should the BTS in OATH 1 be attributed to Flag-Smasher I or Flag-Smasher II (the one from CW:YA&R 1)? Do we know how long the original was running Rumekistan prior to C&DP 28? 

(*I recommend OATH as the code for this mini.)
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Mar 2007 07:40 am    
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
But it begs the question for the MCP listings -- should the BTS in OATH 1 be attributed to Flag-Smasher I or Flag-Smasher II (the one from CW:YA&R 1)? Do we know how long the original was running Rumekistan prior to C&DP 28? 
<<<

2, definitely. 1 got Rn in Citizen V and the V-Batallion: The Everlasting. That's from 2002 (c. Tbolts #59-62, Kang Dynasty, etc). 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
(*I recommend OATH as the code for this mini.) 
<<<

Why not DS:OATH, which would seem to make more sense?

			*	*	*

Thread 35

Posted: 14 Mar 2007 02:04 am    Post subject: The Shroud #1-4
By JLH

Sick of me yet? Don't gag... Gap! 

------------------------------------ 
THE SHROUD #1 [Mar 1994] 
Writer: Mike Barr 
Penciler: M.C. Wyman 
Ink: Malcolm Jones 
"The Deadly Past, Part 1" 

Cast: 
SHROUD/MAXIMILLIAN QUINCY COLERIDGE (also in FB) 
MOUSE 
CAT II 
BALINOR (BTS in main story, and fully in FB) 
KALI/DALINDRA (FB only) 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
SCORPION II/MACDONALD GARGAN 

Other characters: 
The Captain and his men (mobsters) 
King, Garrick (rival mob boss) 
King, Amara (mobster's wife/secret CIA agent) 
Mr and Mrs Coleridge (Shroud's parents, FB only. Both die) 
Inspector Korngold (detective wise to the Lassiter/King war) 
Lassiter (legitimate businessman) 

Summary: The Shroud gets involved when two rival mobs engage in a gunfight. The leader of one of them, Garrick King, makes off with $2 Million that was being laundered. Shroud follows him home, and more or less muscles him into using the money to do his bidding. Shroud isn't sticking around in New York for money, he was pointed in the direction of that gangfight by a strange scroll bearing the mark of Kali. The next day, the bigger mob guy King was getting the money for, a man named Mr Lassiter, deflects a detective's suspicions of his involvement, and hires Scorpion to take down King for not giving up the money. Peter Parker takes pics of the crime scene, which leads him into develing into the situation further as Spider-Man when he becomes aware of Shroud's involvement. Or something like that. The point is, Shroud and Spidey team up to fight the Scorpion, only to both get defeated and pinned down near some leaking fuel tanks, which inspires Scorpion to leave a blowtorch nearby to blow them up once he's gone. 


Flashback: The origin of the Shroud (which is basically Batman crossed with Dr Doom mixed with Daredevil)! His parents gunned down before his eyes as a child by a petty thief, he focused on becoming a cop, only to end up learning of a cult in the East known as the Temple of Kali. He tracked it down, was mentored by a man named Balinor, fell in love with his daughter Dalindra, and eventually was blinded by the Flaming Brand of the Dark Goddess Kali, which in turn blinded him. He was given enhanced perception and powers by this and his teachings, but for some reason was banished from the Temple, as if it was never there. Becoming the costumed Shroud, he set out to create a persona of an LA ganglord, hooked up with villains to create the group called Night Shift, all to get baddies close enough to him so he could destroy them. 


Continuity notes: This story follows not too far after Spectacular Spider-Man #207 & 208, which is mentioned by Spidey, repelete with footnote. Shroud still hasn't left New York to return to LA, and in fact, won't through his Spectacular Annual appearance. 

Night Shift appears in the FB, in a generic posing panel showing Shroud, Werewolf by Night, one of the Brothers Grimm, Dansen Macabre, Digger, Scarecrow (NOT Tatterdemalion as it should), Gypsy Moth, and what appear to be Cat and Mouse. 


Goofs: That roster of Night Shift never existed! 

Every time Mouse's name is mentioned, the lettering looks as though it was changed at the last minute from something else. 


------------------------------------ 
THE SHROUD #2 [Apr 1994] 
Writer: Mike Barr 
Artists: M.C. Wyman & Malcolm Jones III 
"The Deadly Past, Part 2: Death Sting!" 

Cast: 
SHROUD/MAXIMILLIAN QUINCY COLERIDGE 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
SCORPION II/MACDONALD GARGAN 
MOUSE 
CAT II 
KALI/DALINDRA (in shadows) 
BALINOR 

Other characters: 
King, Garrick 
King, Amara 
Inspector Korngold 
Lassiter (also in FB) 
High Lama Yannroth (also in FB) 

Summary: Shroud saves his and Spidey's lives by setting off the sprinklers. He then defeats the Scorpion. Of course, you know Spidey, he's gotta bite the hand that saves him, and he tries to beat up Shroud! Shroud escapes with Scorpion his captive, but Spider-Man gets a tracer off onto his caped adversary. Shroud finds and smashes it. Soon, he hooks Scorpion up to a virtual reality machine at his base, and has his operatives, Cat and Mouse, keep him under watch as they use images of giant scorpions to torture him into revealing who he was working for and why. Shroud learns from King that he saw the mark of Kali in Lassiter's office. He goes there, finds the same magical book in his possession that he himself once found that led him to the cult of Kali so long ago. Security guards spot him, fighting occurs, Shroud escapes. The next day, Lassiter calls up his partner in the Kali Temple, High Lama Yannroth, who prepares to send a special agent in to deal with those proving to be a problem. Shroud heads to the address of the number Lassiter just called, and finds the Temple of Kali now currently existing in upstate New York! He enters and finds his old pal, Balinor, for the first time in years. Balinor was the one who sent him the scroll, wanting him to get involved, as it appears the new leader of the Kali cult, Yannroth, is abandoning the goals of the cult and allying them with the criminal Lassiter to make those of the cult his own skilled killers. Shroud vows to free the cult from Yannroth and Lassiter, sneaks back out, and soon, in the city, is ambushed by gun-toting operatives who know enough to use radarscope to make his misting powers useless. 


Flashback: Yannroth shakes hands with Lassiter, as shot that takes place before the start of the series, apparently. 

Goofs: Scorpion was shown fleeing the building last issue, and here, he seems to have come back in! 

Mouse is called "blondie", despite the fact she's colored with very dark brown hair this mini. 


------------------------------------ 
THE SHROUD #3 [May 1994] 
Writer: Mike Barr 
Breakdowns: M.C. Wyman 
Finishers: Malcolm Jones III & Scott Koblish 
"The Deadly Past, Part 3: Goddess Of Death" 

Cast: 
SHROUD/MAXIMILLIAN QUINCY COLERIDGE 
SCORPION II/MACDONALD GARGAN 
MOUSE 
CAT II 
KALI/DALINDRA 

Other characters: 
King, Garrick (also in FB) 
King, Amara (also in FB) 
Inspector Korngold 
Lassiter 
High Lama Yannroth 

Summary: Shroud beats up the operatives. He figures out they're CIA, and that King's wife is actually one as well. Amara admits it to Shroud, and reveals it all has to do with that $2 million, which was being used by the government to overthrow a Middle Eastern country before it was stolen... or something! Gah! Look, Shroud offers to let her bust her "husband" and even bigger fish if she cooperates with him. At Shroud's makeshift base, Scorpion busts out of his VR prison and attacks Mouse, but she fights back and Shroud shows up in time to take the fight wirth him outside. Of course, it turns out he wants to lose and let Scorpion escape to his boss. The next day, Scorp does so, letting Lassiter in on the fact King and Shroud are allies. Yannroth and his special bodyguard/assassin, a bald broad named Kali, drop by. It seems Lassiter wanted King to get him the $2 mil to pay Yannroth for the whole "undetectable assassins" plot. But hey, he doesn't have it, yet the guy who does is in cahoots with Shroud, who has connections to Yannroth's cult, so it all comes together. Lassiter arranges a meet with King on the Staten Island Ferry that night, in an effort to talk him into giving up the money (and get captured by the Scorpion). Also, so Shroud will show up and Kali can attack him. 


Flashback: The backstory of Amara, getting the assignment to Garrick from her three bosses, reading his file, and getting married to him. 


------------------------------------ 
THE SHROUD #4 [Jun 1994] 
Writer: Mike Barr 
Penciler: Anthony WIlliams 
Inkers: Malcolm Jones III & Scott Koblish 
"Two Million Ways To Die!: The Deadly Past, Part 4" 

Cast: 
SHROUD/MAXIMILLIAN QUINCY COLERIDGE 
KALI/DALINDRA 
SCORPION II/MACDONALD GARGAN 
MOUSE 
CAT II 
BALINOR 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 

Other characters: 
King, Garrick (dies) 
King, Amara 
Inspector Korngold 
Lassiter (apparently dies) 
High Lama Yannroth 

Summary: Kali fights Shroud, and surprise, she turns out to be his old girlfriend, Balinor's daughter, Dalindra. Lots more fighting, and of course, Kali can make herself invisible to Shroud's vision. Soon Shroud hops overboard and slips away. He returns to the base to get a new shroud, since he lost the last one in the escape. Cat and Mouse are worried for their boss, and use the Cat-repaired Spider-Tracer to try to get him some assistance. Shroud meets up with Balinor again, and learns from him the reason why he was banished from the temple was so he would be untouched by the evil of Yannroth. He's destined to kill Kali and restore the cult's honor. The promise of returning to them and finally having a home again is tempting, but at such a cost. Elsewhere, King finally offers to give Lassiter the money, and the CIA and that detective are given the slip, and there's a payoff to Yannroth about to happen and characters randomly appear. Lassiter gets shot and killed. Spider-Man fights Scorpion, getting out aggression from losing his parents again. Garrick tries to escape with the money during all the action, but his "wife" kills him to stop him. Shroud fights Kali, and uses a blanket to wrap around her to avoid her turning invisible to his heightened senses. He chooses not to kill her, and while he's distracted arguing with Spidey, who wants to bring him in because all the papers claim he's a ganglord, Kali slips away. Balinor is pleased she lives, but worries about her being out in the world she wasn't raised around. 
Shroud promises to find her, while Balinor remains with the temple to fight Yannroth's corruption from within. Oh, and Amara lets him go, since, as he reminds her, she got the money back, and the cult's ties with the mob are severed. He returns to Mouse and Cat, never once considering returning to the temple. 

Continuity notes: Spidey has a picture of his parents, and talks about being used to them being gone until they came back and now they're gone again. It's even mentioned in the dialogue how his attitude has changed, meaning the entire "Lifetheft" conclusion/"Pursuit" storyline stuff happened between the few days since he appeared in Shroud #2. 

Kind of funny, to me, that the last time Scorpion is shown before he "retires" is him getting the back of his head smashed into a brick wall by Spidey. You could easily explain away his brief retiring on that, temporary brain damage! 


------------------------------------ 



SHROUD/MAXIMILLIAN QUINCY COLERIDGE 
**PPTSS@ 14/3-FB 
**SHROUD 1-FB 
**PPTSS@ 14/3-FB 
**SHROUD 1-FB 
{SVTU 5} 
SVTU 6 
... 
PPTSS 208 
**SHROUD 1 
**SHROUD 2 
**SHROUD 3 
**SHROUD 4 
PPTSS@ 14/3 
[Civil War things] 


MOUSE 
M/PRV 21/2 
M/TU 93 
M/TU 94 
WCA 3 
**M/SH3 7/3 (moved) 
**SHROUD 1 
**SHROUD 2 
**SHROUD 3 
**SHROUD 4 
PPTSS@ 14/3 
[M/SH3 7/3]-remove, moved to earlier 

CAT II 
M/PRV 21/2 
M/TU 93 
M/TU 94 
WCA 3 
**M/SH3 7/3 (moved) 
**SHROUD 1 
**SHROUD 2 
**SHROUD 3 
**SHROUD 4 
PPTSS@ 14/3 
[M/SH3 7/3]-remove, moved to earlier 


SCORPION II/MACDONALD GARGAN 
... 
DLOK2 31 
**SHROUD 1 
**SHROUD 2 
**SHROUD 3 
**SHROUD 4 
PPTSS 215 
... 

**BALINOR 
SHROUD 1-FB 
SHROUD 1-BTS 
SHROUD 2 
SHROUD 4 

**KALI/DALINDRA 
(all other Kali characters should be given an added "I") 
SHROUD 1-FB 
SHROUD 2 
SHROUD 3 
SHROUD 4 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
... 
S-M 44 
**SHROUD 1 
**SHROUD 2 
ASM 388 
S-M 45-FB 
S-M 45 
ASM 388 
S-M 45 
PPTSS 211 
WOSM 112 
ASM 389 
PPTSS 212 
**SHROUD 4 
ASMU 5 
NO2 3-FB 
...

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2007 06:10 am    
By Enda80

"The origin of the Shroud (which is basically Batman crossed with Dr Doom mixed with Daredevil)! " 

Don't forget the Shadow and his Oriental tutelage/scholarship as an influence. In fact, I the name the Sh-roud and Sh-adow are pretty close. Also the Shroud's modus operandi of pretending to be a gangster was cribbed from the Green Hornet.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Mar 2007 09:53 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Don't forget the Shadow and his Oriental tutelage/scholarship as an influence. 
<<<

Actually, we can forget it. 


watching: winds of war

			*	*	*

Thread 36

Posted: 15 Mar 2007 02:33 pm    Post subject: Amazing Spider-Girl #1-6
By michaelyuri

Amazing Spider-Girl #1: Whatever happened to the daughter of Spider-Man? 
Plot, Script & Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz 
Finished Art: Sal Buscema 


Characters Appearing: 
Babbit, Mr. 
Carlo, Mona 
DeSantos, Simone 
Duran, Courtney 
Hobgoblin 
Kirby, Davida 
Kurkle, Charles "Charlie" 
Leiber, Caitlan 
Parker, Benjamin 
Reverb/Rudolf 
Scarlet Spider II/Felicity Hardy 
Spider-Girl 
Spider-Man 
Thompson, Eugene "Gene" 
Watson-Parker, Mary Jane 
Wes 
Yama, Jimmy 
also: Barney, Jose, Kordell, Lindsey, Sara 


Synopsis: 
1-2: Jimmy and Wes show May the Spider-Girl comic book that they are working on. 

3-5: May walks to school, greeting many people as she enters. Her narrative recaps what has been happening since Last Planet Standing. May is running for Student Council President. She is dating Gene Thompson, Flash's son, who recently transferred to midtown. Someone is defacing her campaign posters. We are introduced to Simone DeSantos, her main rival in the election. 

6-8: May and Courtney leave school. May sees Felicity, who seems to be angry with her. As they arrive at St. Andrews shelter, they see a man (Charlie Kurkle) demanding that Caitlan Leiber let him in. Caitlan refuses and he storms off. The girls enter the shelter to start their volunteer work. They meet Mona Carlo, Charlie's girlfriend, who sets off May's Spider-Sense. 

9-10: At home, May talks to MJ about her plans for the evening. MJ and Peter talk briefly about May's life. May changes into athletic clothes and leaves to meet Davida. 

11: May and Davida play basketball. They split up and May heads to St. Andrews. 

12-14: May sees two thugs threatening Charlie in an alley. She pulls her hood and sweatband over her face as a disguise and then attacks and disarms the thugs. Charlie flees. May secretly follows the thugs to an ice cream parlor. 

15: May leaps off toward St. Andrews. Inside the parlor, the thugs are reporting to Hobgoblin. 

16-18: May arrives at the shelter and sees Charlie about to throw a Molotov cocktail. She stops him, but in the process starts a fire in the street. She rescues a family from a burning car just before it explodes. Inside the shelter, Mona is hiding something in her purse. 

19: May shows up at the Cafe where her friends are hanging out. 

20: Gene walks May home. 

21: May and MJ talk at home. 

22: At the shelter, Hobgoblin viciously beats Caitlan Leiber. He wants to know where Mona went. He also suspects that Spider-Girl is one of the shelter's teenage volunteers. 


Continuity Notes: 
The entire story occurs in the course of one day. 

The events culminating in Spider-Girl #100 are referred to as "a few months ago". 

Caitlan Leiber was originally introduced in Spider-Girl #89. 


------------------------------ 

Amazing Spider-Girl #2: Rocked by Reverb! 
Script, Plot & Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz 
Inks: Sal Buscema 


Characters Appearing: 
Carlo, Mona 
DeSantos, Simone 
Drasco, Detective 
Duran, Courtney 
Green Goblin II/Phil Urich 
Hobgoblin 
Kirby, Davida 
Leiber, Caitlan 
Parker, Benjamin 
Reverb/Rudolf 
Ruiz, Captain 
Slattery, Mr. 
Spider-Girl 
Spider-Man 
Watson-Parker, Mary Jane 
also: Barney, Lindsey 

Synopsis: 
1: Recap page 

2: Police are standing guard outside St. Andrews. A reporter notes that Caitlan's beating was "last night". Inside, Peter and Phil Urich are searching the crime scene for evidence. 

3-4: May is leaping through the air (in her street clothes) on the way to school. She gets there and learns from Courtney that Caitlan was attacked last night. 

5: At the hospital Detective Drasco is interviewing Caitlan. He reveals that Mona is missing. Caitlan says that she thinks Mona may have stolen something from Charlie. Mona is shown walking down the street with a shoulderbag, looking around nervously. 

6: At lunch time, May changes into her workout clothes disguise and heads off in search of the two thugs she stopped the previous night. 

7: Inside the ice cream parlor, Hobgoblin is meeting with the two thugs. He tells them that he suspects that Spider-Girl is one of the volunteers at St. Andrews. He instructs them to attack the volunteers one at a time to flush her out. He leaves them with a robotic suit to use against Spider-Girl. 

8-11: Spider-Girl sneaks inside the ice cream parlor. One of the thugs (Barney) hears her, so she quickly subdues him. Then she is suddenly shot with a sonic beam. The other thug (Rudolf) is wearing the suit. He shoots her again and she is thrown through a window. Spider-Girl is dizzy and disoriented, so she runs away. 

12: May arrives back at school. She is late, so Mr. Slattery gives her detention. 

13-14: Drasco tells Peter that Caitlan said the Hobgoblin was asking about the volunteers. Peter tries to call May to warn her she is in danger. In detention, her cell phone rings and Mr. Slattery takes it away. Peter calls Mary Jane and tells her to try to contact May. Mary Jane calls May's cell phone, but Slattery answers and tells her May's in detention and can't take any calls. Mary Jane worries that Courtney may be in danger. 

15-16: Courtney shows up at St. Andrews, but the police won't let her in. The thugs spot her leaving. Mary Jane shows up at school and pulls May out of detention. She tells her that Courtney may be in trouble and gives her back her costume and web-spinners. 

17: May swings away in costume. 

18-21: The thugs are lying in wait for Courtney. May swings in and attacks them. She is using webbing as earmuffs to block the sound. She throws Rudolf (who is calling himself Reverb) into wet cement, causing him to blow out the speakers on his suit. She leaves the two thugs webbed together and swings away. 

22: Drasco gives a report on Mona Carlo to Hobgoblin. Hobgoblin threatens him and tells him to recover the mysterious item that Mona stole. 


Continuity Notes: 
This story occurs all in one day, the next day after issue #1. 


------------------------------ 

Amazing Spider-Girl #3: A Bitter Frost 
Script, Plot & Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz 
Inks: Sal Buscema 


Characters Appearing: 
Bitter Frost/Betty "Bets" Forest 
Carlo, Mona 
Chesbro 
Drasco, Detective 
Duran, Courtney 
Hardy, Felicia 
Hobgoblin 
Kirby, Davida 
Kurkle, Charlie 
Leiber, Caitlan 
Parker, Benjamin 
Scarlet Spider II/Felicity Hardy 
Spider-Girl 
Spider-Man 
Thompson, Gene 
Valentine, Handsome Richie 
Watson-Parker, Mary Jane 
Wes 
also: Mr. Forest, Wayne 

Synopsis: 
1-2: A man is being chased down an alley. Bitter Frost, referring to the man as "Daddy" freezes him into a block of ice. 

3: Recap page. 

4: At the Parker house, Peter asks May how the school election is going. Peter leaves and then Mary Jane takes back May's Spider-Girl costume. 

5: May arrives at school and is torn between Gene, who wants to spend time with her, and Davida, who wants to work on the election campaign. 

6: Drasco is questioning Charlie Kurkle at the police station. Drasco calls Hobgoblin to tell him that Charlie knows nothing, but he has another lead on Mona's location. 

7-8: May tells Courtney that she's going to head over to St. Andrews to see Caitlan, who has been released from the hospital. She finds the doorway to St. Andrews iced over, and her Spider-Sense is tingling. 

9-10: Inside, Bitter Frost is threatening Caitlan. May rushes in between them. Bitter Frost throws May aside with a gust of wind and then flies away. 

11: Caitlan tells May that Bitter Frost is Betty Forest, who was one of Caitlan's cases years ago. Caitlan gave up on her because Betty wouldn't accept help, and Caitlan has felt guilty ever since. 

12: Back at school, Davida is mad at May for missing their meeting. 

13: Mona is on the phone with Handsome Richie Valentine, who says he can arrange a buyer for her stolen item. 

14: May decides that Bitter Frost is more important than her other responsibilities, so she sneaks home to get her costume. 

15-17: Caitlan goes looking for Betty's old boyfriend, Wayne, to try to find her. Drasco is following her secretly. Bitter Frost is threatening Wayne. She reveals that her powers originated when she was hiding from Wayne's abuse in a deserted factory. Drasco bursts in with his gun drawn, and Bitter Frost attacks them all. 

18-20: Spider-Girl swings in and attacks Bitter Frost. They fight, but Spider-Girl's webbing is useless against her. A piece of debris knocks over a propane heater, starting a fire. This causes Bitter Frost to revert to human form and collapse. 

21-22: Spider-Girl saves Caitlan, Drasco, and Betty from the burning building. Meanwhile, Mona is meeting with Chesbro to sell the mysterious item. 


Flashbacks: 
(11:2-11:4) As a social worker, Caitlan meets with Betty. Betty's father is a mean drunk. Betty won't listen to Caitlan and goes to live in a tenement with her abusive boyfriend Wayne. 

(16:1-16:3) Wayne beat Betty, so she ran off and hid in a deserted factory. The factory was storing old, leaking chemical containers. 


Continuity Notes: 
Intro scene with Betty's father is at night, rest of story is the following day. 

Issue #2 is referred to as "recent events". 

Caitlan appears to be fully healed from her beating. 

------------------------------ 

Amazing Spider-Girl #4: Mad Dog! 
Script, Plot & Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz 
Inks: Sal Buscema 


Characters Appearing: 
Babbit, Mr. 
Black Tarantula 
Carlo, Mona 
Chesbro 
Deacon 
DeSantos, Simone 
Drasco, Lt. 
Duran, Courtney 
Gelcan 
Green Goblin II 
Hobgoblin 
Kingsley, Daniel 
Kirby, Davida 
Mad Dog 
Noble, Heather 
Parker, Benjamin 
Ruiz, Captain "Rigger" 
Spider-Girl 
Spider-Man 
Thompson, Gene 
Watson-Parker, Mary Jane 
Wes 
Yama, Jimmy 


Synopsis: 
1: Recap page 

2-3: The bounty hunter Mad Dog beats up the Zebra Patrol, a group of militant survivalist. Mad Dog is equipped with weapons he claims to have taken off super-villains whom he has captured. 

4: May is getting ready for school, agonizing over what to do with her costume. She puts it in her school bag. 

5: Peter and Phil are investigated the scene of Mad Dog's battle. Mad Dog reveals that he used to work with Captain Ruiz on Code:Blue. He says he's in town to capture the Hobgoblin. 

6-7: At school, May's election posters are still being defaced. Gene is angry with May because she's ditching him to work on her election speech. Simone DeSantos starts hitting on Gene. 

8: Hobgoblin meets with Drasco. He is angry that Mad Dog is boasting that he will capture the Hobgoblin. Drasco says that they still don't know where Mona is. 

9: Chesbro tells the Black Tarantula that Mona has a DVD containing all of the Kingpin's criminal contacts. Chesbro had Mona followed, and his men are watching her. 

10: May rehearses her speech in the auditorium. Heather Noble says she's going to meet Jimmy and Wes who are trying to get a local comics shop to carry their Spider-Girl book. 

11: Jimmy tries to convince Deacon to carry their book. Jimmy promises an appearance by Spider-Girl to promote it and Deacon agrees. Jimmy tells Heather that she is responsible for Deacon agreeing to carry the book. 

12: Mad Dog shows up to threaten Hobgoblin's brother Daniel to get Hobgoblin's location. He offers a $20,000 bribe, which Daniel accepts. 

13-15: Hobgoblin and Drasco talk about how they used Daniel to set up Mad Dog. Peter watches Mad Dog on live television bragging about how he will capture the Hobgoblin. Peter tells May how much he is bothered by Mad Dog's bragging. May goes to meet Gene at a cafe. May decides that Mad Dog and Hobgoblin are more important, and swings off in costume. 

16: May shows up at Daniel's place to get Mad Dog's location. Mad Dog shows up at the location he was given. 

17-19: May shows up and sees that Mad Dog is surrounded by snipers. She swings in and rescues him just as they start shooting. Mad Dog and May fight Hobgoblin's men. Mad Dog reveals that much of his reputation is just hype made up for TV ratings. 

20: Drasco is watching them fight from his car. He recalls that he owes Spider-Girl for saving his life. 

21: One of Hobgoblin's men is about to shoot May, when Drasco clubs him and knocks him out. Mad Dog and Spider-Girl finish defeating Hobgoblin's men. 

22: Hobgoblin is on the phone with Drasco, irate that his plan failed. 


Continuity Notes: 
Story occurs all in one day. 

Still before the Student Council election. 

------------------------------ 

Amazing Spider-Girl #5: Priorities! 
Script, Plot & Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz 
Inks: Sal Buscema 


Characters Appearing: 
Black Tarantula 
Carlo, Mona 
Chesbro 
DeSantos, Simone 
Drasco, Vinnie 
Duran, Courtney 
Gelcan 
Hobgoblin 
Kingsley, Daniel 
Kirby, Davida 
Mad Dog 
Noble, Heather 
Parker, Benjamin 
Slattery, Mr. 
Spider-Girl 
Spider-Man 
Thompson, Gene 
Watson-Parker, Mary Jane 
Wes 
Yama, Jimmy 
Also: Lindsey 

Synopsis: 
1: Gelcan and Mad Dog talk about how successful the previous night's battle was. Mad Dog says he's reluctant to use the Spider-Girl footage, but Gelcan insists on it. When they return to Mad Dog's van they find that Spider-Girl has beat them there and erased all of the footage. 

2: Recap page 

3-4: May swings to school as Spider-Girl, and then changes out of costume. 

5-6: Gene confronts May about standing him up the previous night. Davida talks to May about the student council election. 

7: Chesbro tells the Black Tarantula by video about Mona Carlo's DVD. Black Tarantula tells him to use Mona as bait to bring out other would-be crime lords. 

8: Jimmy tells Heather about his plan to have her pose as Spider-Girl. She agrees. 

9: Hobgoblin is blaming his brother for the failure to kill Mad Dog. Drasco calls to tell Hobgoblin that he knows where Mona is. 

10-12: Slattery tells Simone and May that they have a free period to prepare for the student council debate. May leaves school as Spider-Girl to find Daniel Kingsley. Kingsley calls Mad Dog to tell him where Mona is. Spider-Girl overhears the call and swings off to find Mona. 

13-16: Drasco knocks on Mona's door and tells her he's bringing her to the station. Suddenly he is surrounded by the Black Tarantula's men on one side, and a group of unidentified thugs on the other. Spider-Girl arrives and subdues some of the bad guys. She grabs Mona to swing off with her, but realizes that she is out of webbing. Meanwhile, Mary Jane and Peter have arrived at school to watch the debate. 

17-18: Mad Dog rescues May and Mona and then proceeds to fight all of thugs single handedly. 

19: May swings off with the DVD after leaving Mona tied up for the police. 

20-21: May shows up late for the debate. She gives her speech, withdrawing from the race and telling people to vote for Davida in her place. 

22: It is implied that Gene is the one who has been defacing May's election posters. Drasco tells Hobgoblin that Spider-Girl has the DVD. Hobgoblin has an advertisement for Spider-Girl's appearance at the comic store to promote Jimmy's book. 


Continuity Notes: 
The entire story occurs in one day, the day after the events of issue #4. 
The advertisement for Spider-Girl comic shop appearance says "Tomorrow". 


------------------------------ 

Amazing Spider-Girl #6: The Hobgoblin and the Hostage! 
Script, Plot & Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz 
Inks: Sal Buscema 


Characters Appearing: 
Black Tarantula 
Carlo, Mona 
Chesbro 
Deacon 
Drasco, Vinnie 
Duran, Courtney 
Hobgoblin 
Kirby, Davida 
Noble, Heather 
Parker, Benjamin 
Scarlet Spider II/Felicity Hardy 
Spider-Girl 
Spider-Man 
Thompson, Gene 
Watson-Parker, Mary Jane 
Wes 
Yama, Jimmy 


Synopsis: 
1: Recap page. 

2-4: Hobgoblin smashes through the window of Deacon's comic book store, and throws a bomb at what appears to be Spider-Girl. He then grabs her and flies away. The story then flashes back to that morning, when Peter confronted May about the advertised Spider-Girl appearance. May assures Peter that it isn't her and he is relieved. MJ makes her promise to come clean with Peter about everything. 

5: Drasco questions Mona at the police station. She insists that Spider-Girl took the disk. Drasco informs Hobgoblin by phone. 

6-7: At school, May learns that Heather is going to be posing as Spider-Girl. Someone has vandalized May's locker and Gene is very angry about it. Felicity shows up and May asks her to help her crack the encrypted disk. 

8: Chesbro contacts the Black Tarantula to tell him that Spider-Girl has the disk. Black Tarantula tells Chesbro to leave spider-Girl alone, but to "send a message" to the Hobgoblin. Meanwhile, Felicity and May are unable to crack the disk. 

9: Davida confronts May and she is about to reveal her secret identity, when a bunch of students start asking Davida about the election. 

10: At the comic shop, Heather gets into costume. May and Courtney arrive. 

11: The Hobgoblin shows up at the comic shop and kidnaps Heather. At this point, the story catches up to the events shown on pages 2-3. 

12-17: May puts her costume on and confronts Hobgoblin. She shoots the hobgoblin with one of her stingers causing him to drop Heather. Spider-Girl saves Heather, but sprains her ankle when she lands. Hobgoblin sees that she is hurt and prepares to attack. 

18: Hobgoblin is hit with rapid gunfire. He flies away on his damaged glider, assuming that Spider-Girl gave the disk to the Black Tarantula in exchange for protection. Chesbro is shown on a rooftop with the shooter. 

19: Heather is being treated by EMTs. May talks to Wes and he explains how he empathizes with spider-Girl. May gives him a kiss on the cheek and leaves. 

20: Spider-Girl meets Drasco in an alley and gives him the disk, telling him to keep it out of the hands of Hobgoblin or the Black Tarantula. On the way home she gets a cell phone call from Gene, but doesn't take it. 

21-22: May reveals to Peter that she has been active as Spider-Girl recently. She leaves her costume with her parents, but tells them that she will eventually be Spider-Girl again and there's nothing they can do to stop her. 


Flashbacks: 
Everything from page 3, panel 4 to page 10 is flashback material. The panels on page 11 are chronologically part of the opening scene from pages 2 & 3. 


Continuity Notes: 
This entire issue occurs in one day. Since the advertisement in issue #5 says that the comic shop appearance is "tomorrow", this issue must be the day immediately after issue #5. 

------------------------------ 


Chronology entries: 


*Babbit, Mr. 
*ASG 1 
*ASG 4 

*Bitter Frost/Betty "Bets" Forest 
*ASG 3-FB (11:2, 11:4, 16:1-16:3) 
*ASG 3 

Black Tarantula/Fabian LeMuerto 
. . . 
SG 100 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 5 
*ASG 6-FB (8:1-8:5) 

*Carlo, Mona 
*ASG 1 
*ASG 2 
*ASG 3 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 5 
*ASG 6-FB (5) 

Chesbro 
. . . 
SG 97 
*ASG 3 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 5 
*ASG 6-FB (8:1-8:5) 
*ASG 6 

Deacon 
. . . 
LHS 2 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 6-FB (10) 
*ASG 6 

*DeSantos, Simone 
*ASG 1 
*ASG 2 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 5 

*Drasco, Detective Vinnie 
*ASG 2 
*ASG 3 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 5 
*ASG 6-FB (5) 
*ASG 6 

Duran, Courtney Marie 
. . . 
LPS 1 
*ASG 1 
*ASG 2 
*ASG 3 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 5 
*ASG 6-FB (10, 11:6) 
*ASG 6 

*Gelcan 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 5 

Green Goblin II/Phil Urich/Golden Goblin 
. . . 
SG 99 
*ASG 2 
AVN 4 
AVN 5-BTS 
*ASG 4 

Hardy, Felicia 
. . . 
SG 53 
*ASG 3 

Hobgoblin/Roderick Kingsley 
. . . 
SG 100 
*ASG 1 
*ASG 2 
*ASG 3 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 5 
*ASG 6-FB (5) 
*ASG 6 (2) ~ ASG 6-FB (11:1) 
*ASG 6-FB (11:3) 
*ASG 6 (3:1) 
*ASG 6-FB (11:4) 
*ASG 6 (3:3) ~ ASG 6-FB (11:6) 
*ASG 6 (12-18) 

Kingsley, Daniel 
. . . 
SG 100 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 5 

Kirby, Davida Jacqueline 
. . . 
LPS 1 
*ASG 1 
*ASG 2 
*ASG 3 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 5 
*ASG 6-FB (9) 

*Kurkle, Charles "Charlie" 
*ASG 1 
*ASG 3 

*Leiber, Caitlan 
*ASG 3-FB (11:2-11:4) 
*SG 89 
*ASG 1 
*ASG 2 
*ASG 3 

*Mad Dog 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 5 

Noble, Heather 
. . . 
SG 96 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 5 
*ASG 6-FB (6-7, 10, 11:3) 
*ASG 6 (3:1-3:2) 
*ASG 6-FB (11:4) 
*ASG 6 (3:3) ~ ASG 6-FB (11:6) 
*ASG 6 (12-19) 

Parker, Benjamin Richard 
. . . 
SG 100 
*ASG 1 
*ASG 2 
*ASG 3 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 5 
*ASG 6-FB (3:4-4) 
*ASG 6 

*Reverb/Rudolf 
*ASG 1 
*ASG 2 

*Ruiz, Captain "Rigger" <-added nickname 
. . . 
SG 99 
*ASG 2 
*ASG 4 

Scarlet Spider II/Felicity Hardy 
. . . 
SG 97 
*ASG 1 
*ASG 3 
*ASG 6-FB (6-7, 8:6-8:8) 

Slattery, Mr. 
. . . 
LPS 1 
*ASG 2 
*ASG 5 

Spider-Girl/May "Mayday" Parker 
ASG 0-BTS 
AVN 1 
AVN 2 
*ASG 1 
*ASG 2 
AVN 3 
AVN 4 
AVN 5 
*ASG 3 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 5 
*ASG 6-FB (3:4-4, 6-7, 8:6-10, 11:2, 11:5) 
*ASG 6 (3:3) ~ ASG 6-FB (11:6) 
*ASG 6 (11:7-22) 

Spider-Man/Peter Parker 
. . . 
SG 100 
*ASG 1 
*ASG 2 
AVN 4 
AVN 5-BTS 
*ASG 3 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 5 
*ASG 6-FB (3:4-4) 
*ASG 6 

*Thompson, Eugene, "Gene" 
*ASG 1 
*ASG 3 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 5 
*ASG 6-FB (6-7) 
*ASG 6-BTS 

Valentine, "Handsome" Richie 
. . . 
SG 77 
*ASG 3 

Watson-Parker, Mary Jane 
. . . 
SG 100 
*ASG 1 
*ASG 2 
*ASG 3 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 5 
*ASG 6-FB (3:4-4) 
*ASG 6 

*Wes 
*ASG 1 
*ASG 3 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 5 
*ASG 6-FB (10) 
*ASG 6 (3:1) 
*ASG 6 (3:3) ~ ASG 6-FB (11:6) 
*ASG 6 (14-19) 

Yama, Jimmy 
. . . 
SG 100 
*ASG 1 
*ASG 4 
*ASG 5 
*ASG 6-FB (10) 
*ASG 6 (3:1) 
*ASG 6 (3:3) ~ ASG 6-FB (11:6) 
*ASG 6 (14-19) 


Characters without listings: 
Barney - One of Hobgoblin's thugs in issue 1 & 2. 

Forest, Mr. - Bitter Frost's father, who appears in issue 3 & 3-FB(11:3). 

Jose - One of May's friends whom she greets in passing in issue 1. 

Kordell - One of May's friends whom she greets in passing in issue 1. 

Lindsey - Simone's sidekick in issues 1, 2, & 5. 

Sara - One of May's friends whom she greets in passing in issue 1. 

Wayne - Bitter Frost's former boyfriend, who appears in issue 3 & 3-FB(11:4,16:1). 

Note: Wes has not yet been given a last name, but he is clearly an important recurring character and thus I think he deserves a chronology listing. 

------------------------------ 

-Mike

			*	*	*

Thread 37

Posted: 17 Mar 2007 12:45 am    Post subject: Solo #1-4
By JLH

How'd I sink so low? It's the Gap! 

------------------------------------ 
SOLO #1 [September 1994] 
Writer: Eric Fein 
Penciler: Ron Randall 
Inker: Sam DeLarosa 
"Blood Of The Hunted, Part One: The Terror Begins!" 

Cast: 
SOLO/JAMES BOURNE (also in FB) 
CYGNUS/ROWENA MACLEAN (also in FB) 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
SCORCH 
SNIDER, DET. LOU 
TESSLER, EMIL (also in FB) 
DEATHSTORM/GABRIEL GANT (also in FB) 


Other characters: 
Raider and Burlson (only A.R.E.S. grunts named) 
Welles, Charles (head of Welles Technologies. Dies) 
Wallace, Melinda (FB only. Dies) 
UN Secretary 


Summary: Solo takes on a terrorist organization known as ARES, tracking them to a raid on an electronics firm in Manhattan. Turns out one of their leaders is a woman from his past, known to them as Cygnus, but to him, Rowena MacLean. The ARES members also have access to the same teleportation technology as Solo. They get get the Omega Strike files they need and blow up the skyscraper, Solo barely making it out before the blast occurs. Not far away, another ARES team, lead by an operative called Scorch, also snatches an Omega Strike file, but before they can succeed in their mission, Spider-Man gets the drop on them. They manage to escape via their teleportation powers, and Spidey is soon met by Detective Snider, an old acquaintance. From him, he learns of the Welles building explosion, and ties to this. Turns out, ARES' head Emil Tessler wanted to gain or destroy these files to make the members of his organization have no paper trail of existing. Or something like that, Cygnus mentions Solo spotting her, and Deathstorm, another one of the upper tier generals of the team, brings up his own run in with him not long ago. So, Solo returns to his base, and recalls his time with Omega Strike. Back in New York, the UN Secretary holds a press conference on the recent break-in, so Deathstorm and some ARES members teleport in and attack during it. Solo pops in to stop them, and Spidey's also on hand to try to save some lives. Det. Snider gets shot as a result of the gunfighting, and of course, Spidey chews Solo out since he's "just as bad as them" and vows to hunt down all "gun-toting maniacs". Solo teleports away, giving his own vow to stop his old teammates, no matter if it costs him his own life. 


Flashback: The Origin of Solo! Years ago, Solo in the army, stationed in Germany. He fell in love with a woman named Melinda Wallace, who was shot down in a terrorist attack. This fueled his hatred of terrorism, and a few months later, he joined a NATO alliance force of 12, who all had teleportation tech chips installed in their heads with ties to their adrenal glands. They were an anti-terrorism strike team called Omega Strike. Cygnus and Deathstorm were also part of it. Emil Tessler was the leader. Solo fell in love with Cygnus. But it turns out Emil, Deathstorm, and Cygnus were all working with terrorists and ambushed their own team. Solo was the only one to survive, and just barely. See why he's "Solo" now? 


Continuity notes: A.R.E.S. stands for Assassination, Revolution, Extortion and Sabotage. 

Det. Snider mentions he's "been out of commission for a couple of months-- got caught in the crossfire of a drug dispute." 

A mention is made to ASM@27/2, as being "recently" according to Deathstorm and "a few months back" by Solo's estimates. 

Spider-Man mentions he doesn't feel all that "friendly" these days, with a footnote to recent issues of Spidey's titles. This puts it after the "Pursuit" storyline. 


Goofs: The Bullpen Bulletins' Hype Box about this issue has a hilarious typo in Solo's catchphrase, "While I live, terror does!" Which makes it sound like as long as he lives, so shall terror. 

------------------------------------ 
SOLO #2 [October 1994] 
Writer: Eric Fein 
Penciler: Ron Randall 
Inker: Sam DeLarosa 
"Blood Of The Hunted, Part 2: Moguls of Death" 

Cast: 
DEATHSTORM/GABRIEL GANT 
CYGNUS/ROWENA MACLEAN 
TESSLER, EMIL 
SNIDER, DET. LOU 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
SOLO/JAMES BOURNE 
SCORCH 

Other characters: 
Three shadowy guys interested in hiring ARES 
Dr Burke (female doc treating Snider) 
Ambassador Ortega (Delvadian; dies) 
Ortega's son 


Summary: Deathstorm viciously trains with some ARES grunts, as Tessler tries to make a sales pitch of ARES to a trio of mysterious governmental types. Spidey hangs out in Det. Snider's hospital room, bemoaning how good people keep ending up suffering. Solo teleports in to tell the comatose Snider he'll be avenged, and Spider-Man confronts him. They exchange a few words, Spidey willing to understand Solo better but Solo is unwilling to trust in him enough to spill any intimate details. ARES targets the Delvadian Embassy, trying to muscle the Ambassador to vote down a UN resolution against the country their current employer wants to control. Solo learns of this, since, ya know his secret sanctum is tracking globally the teleport signature stuff. Of course, cops learn of the attack on the embassy and Spidey, apparently the only superhero in New York this week, gets wind of it as well. Oh, and Cygnus shows her true colors when she risks her life to save Ambassador Ortega's son. Spidey takes down Scorch, but when he whines about how killing is so very wrong when dealing with terrorists, well, it effects Solo so much that when Cygnus is threatened by Deathstorm, who just murdered the Ambassador, he refuses to kill her to get at the real villain. ARES gets away, save for Scorch, and Spidey gets shot at by Solo as he escapes. Spidey vows into the air some more empty promises about taking down Solo once and for all. 


Continuity notes: This is after Aunt May's stroke, as Spidey mentions his Aunt being in the hospital, and footnote brings up ASM 391. 

A.R.E.S has their very helicarrier. I think I know why these guys completely vanished after WOS 120, SHIELD sued them out of existance! 


------------------------------------ 
SOLO #3 [November 1994] 
Writer: Eric Fein 
Penciler: Ron Randall 
Inker: Sam DeLarosa 
"Blood Of The Hunted, Part Three: In The Lair Of Madmen" 

Cast: 
SOLO/JAMES BOURNE 
DEATHSTORM/GABRIEL GANT 
CYGNUS/ROWENA MACLEAN 
TESSLER, EMIL 
SCORCH 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 

Other characters: 
Welles, Matthew (son of Charles Welles, dies) 
LeGrand, Det. Sal 
Maggie (partner of LeGrand) 
Guardsmen 


Summary: Solo learns where the ARES base is located, up under the Adirondacks, near Lake George, from the son of the head of Welles Corp who sold out his father to the terrorists. Needless to say, he gets killed by our title character. At said base of ARES, Cygnus gets scolded by Emil, and Emil gets mandhandled by Deathstorm, who apparently wants to be the big guy running the show now. In Manhattan, the captive Scorch is interrogated to no avail. That is, until the cops take a break in trying to break him, and Spidey sneaks in to give it a try. Unfortunately, ARES only thing gets a lock on his damaged teleport chip, recalling both Scorch AND Spider-Man to the base. As Spidey flees from a base full of armored terrorists, Solo teleports in and arrives just in time to help him out. Emil, Cygnus, and most of the ARES guys escape in their Helicarrier. Deathstorm, Scorch, and some others are left behind to fight Solo and Spidey. Emil shuts off their teleportation chips, and sets the base on self-destruct. Our two heroes get out just in time, but Spidey manages to best him in a hand-to-hand battle. Shortly, after a call to the Vault, some Guardsmen arrive and haul Solo away. Meanwhile, Deathstorm crawls out of the wreckage, vowing vengeance on Emil for abandoning him. With no way to teleport and stripped of his guns, Solo isn't prepared to give up just yet. 


------------------------------------ 
SOLO #4 [December 1994] 
Writer: Eric Fein 
Penciler: Ron Randall 
Inker: Sam DeLarosa 
"Blood Of The Hunted, Part 4: The Terror Ends" 

Cast: 
SOLO/JAMES BOURNE 
CYGNUS/ROWENA MACLEAN 
TESSLER, EMIL (dies) 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
SNIDER, DET. LOU 
DEATHSTORM/GABRIEL GANT (dies) 
SCORCH 


Other characters: 
Guardsmen (only the rookie, Hanson, is named) 
Lorenzo (former head of R&D for ARES) 
Manny (hot dog vendor) 
Dolores (pedestrian. dies) 


Summary: One of the Guardsmen takes off his helmet (he's a rookie, ya see). Solo wraps his chains around his neck, and extorts the keys out of the other Guardsman. He leaps out of the moving van and takes off into the forest, before hopping a passing cargo train. He's got a long walk back to his sanctum without his teleportation ability. ARES continues its mission, as funded by the Delvadian Liberation Front, to disrupt the UN talks about its country. Emil wants them to become the premiere terrorist organization, and this mission is important to do so, despite Cygnus' arguments. Elsewhere, Det. Snider awakens from his coma, much to Spidey's delight. They learn Solo escaped, and Spidey sets out to hunt him down again (heroes hunting heroes? It's Civil War in 1994!) Elsewhere still, Deathstorm, Scorch, and other former ARES members left for dead by Emil, band together in an attempt to overtake the organization. As they get their teleportation chips restored by a former head of R&D for Emil, Solo is doing the same to himself using his special devices at his sanctum. So, while Emil and Cygnus lead ARES into attacking the UN building, both Spidey and Solo drop by to try to save some lives. Cygnus reveals to Solo that Emil's her father, and defects to try to stop his crazy plans. This all leads back to the ARES Helicarrier, where Deathstorm kills Emil Tessler. Scorch's jetpack burns out the controls and sends the Helicarrier plummeting toward West 38th Street. It ends up crashing into the bay, but our main three players crawl from the watery wreckage. Deathstorm is finally shot down by Solo, but the bullet goes through his body, hitting a woman standing nearby (remember, when you see a bunch of people in costumes waving around guns, gawking is the smartest thing to do). Spidey, of course, witnesses this and claims he's no better than the terrorists he hunts. Solo agrees, letting the Guardsmen take him away when they arrive for the manslaughter of the woman in his killing of a bloodthirsty terrorist. What's funny, in hindsight, he ended up going to prison longer for an accident death than any actual super-villain does for mass-murdering in the Marvel Universe, not appearing again until 1999. 


Goofs: How is it Scorch also survived the base destruction, AND managed to get his armor back without being able to teleport in anywhere to get it? 


------------------------------------ 


SOLO/JAMES BOURNE 
(added real name) 
**SOLO 1-FB 
{WOSM 19} 
... 
ASM@ 27/2 
**SOLO 1 
**SOLO 2 
**SOLO 3 
**SOLO 4 
W2 134 
... 

DEATHSTORM/GABRIEL GANT 
(added real name) 
**SOLO 1-FB 
{ASM@ 27/2} 
**SOLO 1 
**SOLO 2 
**SOLO 3 
**SOLO 4 


SNIDER, DET. LOU 
**PPTSS 47 
**PPTSS 48 
**PPTSS 54 
**ASM 245 
**SOLO 1 
**SOLO 2 
**SOLO 4 
ASM 418 
S-M 75 
PPTSS 260 

**SCORCH II 
(current Scorch II should be renumbered as III) 
SOLO 1 
SOLO 2 
SOLO 3 
SOLO 4 

**CYGNUS/ROWENA MACLEAN 
SOLO 1-FB 
{SOLO 1} 
SOLO 2 
SOLO 3 
SOLO 4 

**TESSLER, EMIL 
SOLO 1-FB 
{SOLO 1} 
SOLO 2 
SOLO 3 
SOLO 4 


SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
... 
ASMU 6 
SSWP 30 
**SOLO 1 
**SOLO 2 
**SOLO 3 
**SOLO 4 
FFU 7 
ASM 392 
...

			*	*	*

Thread 38

Posted: 19 Mar 2007 01:52 am    Post subject: Sgt. Fury 106, 108, 110, 112, 114-120
By Col_Fury

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #100 was a current day story celebrating 100 issues of Sgt. Fury. Amidst some reprints, the following issues stopped following a linear fashion of story telling and started showing stories set at different points in the war. Heres an analysis of the tail end of Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos: 

Sgt. Fury #106 
Appearances: 
Sgt. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Reb Ralston, Dino Manelli, Gabe Jones, Izzy Cohen, Pinky Pinkerton, Eric Koenig, Col. Sam Sawyer. 

Synopsis: 
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #106-FB pg4-pg10 
Col. Sawyer informs the Howlers of their mission: stop the last prison train to Dresden filled with Allied POWs. Why is it the last train? Because Dresden will be bombed, and the Germans are filling the town with prisoners. Eric is appalled that the Allies will be bombing a civilian town, and decides to try to stop it himself. That night they parachute into Germany and get themselves captured. They meet a double agent whos running the prison camp, who supplies them with weapons. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #106-FB pg11-pg15pn2 
The POWs are loaded onto the prison train and the Howlers quickly attempt to overtake it. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #106 pg1-pg3 
Atop the last train to Dresden, the Howling Commandos fight the Nazi guards. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #106 pg15pn3-pg20 
The Howlers overtake and stop the train, when theyre given new orders by the double-agent: Attempt to save as many civilians in Dresden as possible. The spy is killed by one of the remaining guards, who is killed by Eric in retaliation. The Howlers then set off for Dresden. 

Sgt. Fury #108 
Appearances: 
Sgt. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Reb Ralston, Dino Manelli, Gabe Jones, Izzy Cohen, Pinky Pinkerton, Eric Koenig, Col. Sam Sawyer, Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower. 

Synopsis: 
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #108-FB pg8-pg19 
As the Howlers make their way to Dresden, theyre attacked by Nazi scouts. After killing them, they steal their uniforms and make their way into the city, and free the POWs there. Meanwhile, Cal. Sawyer receives a phone call from Gen. Eisenhower telling him that the attack on Dresden has been moved up. Back in the city, Eric tells Fury hes going to warn the town of the attack but its too late the sky is already filled with bombers. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #108 pg1-pg6 
As the fire-bombing of Dresden begins, the Howlers take the rescued POWs and citizens of Dresden to a bomb shelter. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #108 pg20 
The Howlers, POWs, and German citizens leave their shelter and find the city of Dresden little more than rubble and ash. 

References: 
Sam Sawyer is now a Colonel. 

The fire-bombing of Dresden was in February 1945. 


Sgt. Fury #110 
Appearances: 
Sgt. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Reb Ralston, Dino Manelli, Gabe Jones, Izzy Cohen, Eric Koenig, 'Jameson'. 

Synopsis: 
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #110 pg1-pg5 
Anti-war reporter C. Thomas Sites reads a letter and decides to head for Europe to get first hand experience. Meanwhile, Dum Dum tells Fury that he wrote a letter to Sites daring him to see the war first hand. Back in New York, Sites prepares to leave for Europe. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #110 pg6-pg20pn2 
As the Howlers receive orders to assist taking a town in France, Sites arrive to tag along. As the Howlers battle German forces Sites takes notes, still disgusted with the need for war. Just when the town is about to be taken, the Allied forces receive orders to stand down: Nazis have taken fifty civilians prisoner, and that theyll kill them if the Allies dont pull out of the town. The Howlers try to save the civilians, but the Nazis had killed them hours ago. Disgusted, Sites kills one of the Nazi soldiers. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #110 pg20pn3-pg20pn6 
Sites says goodbye to Fury and tells him to watch for his next column. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #110 pg20pn7-pg20pn9 
Sites prepares to write a column explaining that hes still against war, but understands the need for it in this case. 

References: 
The story is set after D-Day, but before France has won its freedom back, which would be in July/August 1944. 

I'm sure that Enda80 will be excited to hear that a Jameson is shown running the Daily Bugle in this story. 

Sgt. Fury #112 
Appearances: 
Sgt. Nick Fury, Baron Strucker 

Synopsis: 
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #112 
Fury hallucinates that the Howlers have died in a crash, but Baron Strucker slaps him and questions Furys grip on his sanity. 

References: 
All but the last few panels are an hallucination. The real events of what happened are in issue 114s FlashBacks. 


Sgt. Fury #114 
Appearances: 
Sgt. Nick Fury, Baron Strucker, Dum Dum Dugan, Reb Ralston, Dino Manelli, Gabe Jones, Izzy Cohen, Pinky Pinkerton, Eric Koenig, Capt. Sam Sawyer. 

Synopsis: 
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #114-FB pg3pn6-pg6pn1 
The Howlers are flying into Africa for a mission to stop Nazis from starting a tribe war between the natives when theyre shot down by German flak guns. The plane crashes and the Howlers make it out, but Fury is missing and assumed dead. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #114-FB pg8pn3-pg8pn6 
Baron Strucker and some natives recover Fury from the crash and take him back to their camp. 

<Sgt. Fury #112 goes here> 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #114 pg1-pg3pn5 
The Howling Commandos attend Nick Furys funeral in Africa. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #114 pg6pn2-pg8pn2 
Dum Dum radios Capt. Sawyer and informs him that Fury is dead. Meanwhile, Baron Strucker administers more of the hallucinogen and tortures Fury. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #114 pg9-pg10 
Strucker reports the progress of his research to the visiting Nazi official. Meanwhile, the Howlers are ordered to resume their mission to find the Nazi camp. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #114 pg11-pg20 
The Howlers make their way through the jungle and are attacked by Strucker's natives. As they fight Fury breaks free but doesnt believe that the Howlers are actually alive. 

References: 
To be continued in issue 115! 

Sam Sawyer is a Captain, placing this at least before Sgt. Fury 106. 

Both Dino and Eric are part of the team, placing this at least after Sgt. Fury #42. 

The Nazis retreated from Africa in May 1943, which was shown in Sgt. Fury #43, placing this and the next few issues before that.(Wow! That nailed things down) 

Baron Strucker was declared an enemy of the state in Sgt. Fury 29 and here he is working with the Nazis again. This has to follow Gambit vol3 #10, where Strucker was trying to get back in Hitlers graces after the defeat of his Hydra in Captain Savage 4. Here, Strucker is on a low-level research assignment on hallucinogens, and after his success in defeating Fury here, he was welcomed back so he could appear as a Nazi officer in Marvel Universe 1-3. 

Strucker mentions its been a while since hes confronted Fury here, which is fine because they didnt really encounter each other in Gambit vol3 #10. 


Sgt. Fury #115 
Appearances: 
Sgt. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Reb Ralston, Dino Manelli, Gabe Jones, Izzy Cohen, Pinky Pinkerton, Eric Koenig, Capt. Sam Sawyer. 

Synopsis: 
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #115 pg1-pg19pn4 
Fury has completely lost it, but his doctor informs the Howlers of someone who could help, if he wasnt being held by the Nazis. Capt. Sawyer gives them a 24 hour leave to see what they can do. Later that day, the Howlers make their way behind enemy lines and rescue the doctor. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #115 pg19pn5-pg19pn6 
After psychiatric treatment, Fury appears to have made a full recovery. 

References: 
Continued from last issue. 

Fury has undergone psychiatric treatment for a month! 

Sgt. Fury #116 
Appearances: 
Sgt. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Reb Ralston, Dino Manelli, Gabe Jones, Izzy Cohen, Pinky Pinkerton, Eric Koenig, Capt. Sawyer, Sgt. Bull McGiveney, Furys new squad who are never seen again. 

Synopsis: 
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #116 pg1-pg7 
Fury has been assigned to Drill Sergeant until hes deemed fit for combat. He meets his new squad and starts putting them through their paces. That night he meets a girl at the bar after beating up McGiveney. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #116 pg8-pg10 
Fury checks in on his squad, and then runs them through training. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #116 pg11-pg13 
Wilcox tries to pick up Furys girl at the bar, and Fury arrives and beats the tar out of him. Later, Fury gets lucky. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #116 pg14-pg19pn4 
Fury leads his squad on a mission to destroy German mines so Allied submarines can get through. They do so, but encounter German frogmen resistance. The mission is accomplished, but some of them sustain injuries. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #116 pg19pn5-pg19pn8 
While they recover at the base hospital, Fury congratulates Wilcox on a job well done. 

References: 
Continued from last issue. 

Fury trained his new squad for six weeks. 

While depressed, Fury thinks back to fighting Baron Strucker and Colonel Klaue, placing this at least after Sgt. Fury #39. 


Sgt. Fury #117 
Appearances: 
Sgt. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Reb Ralston, Dino Manelli, Gabe Jones, Izzy Cohen, Pinky Pinkerton, Eric Koenig, Capt. Sawyer. 

Synopsis: 
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #117-FB pg7pn2-pg7pn3, pg13pn1-pg13pn2 
Gabe & Bellaman play jazz together in a nightclub before the war. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #117-FB pg4pn3-pg6pn4 
The Germans are using POW Private Danny Drummer Bellaman in experiments of viral weapons, but the lab is bombed and Drummer escapes with a dangerous virus. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #117-FB pg7pn4-pg7pn5 
Drummer uses a boat to get to London. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #117 pg1-pg4pn2 
Now back on active status, Fury runs the Howlers through training. Dum Dum attempts to confront Nick on his relentless behavior, but Fury and Gabe are summoned to Capt. Sawyer before anything comes of it. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #117 pg6pn5-pg7pn1 
Capt. Sawyer briefs Fury on Drummer, and reveals that he and Gabe are friends. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #117 pg7pn6-pg12 
Fury and Gabe are to find Drummer before the virus is compromised. They look around town and find out the Nazis are looking for him, also. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #117 pg13pn3-pg19pn6 
Not trusting anyone, Drummer swallows the virus. Hes confronted by Nazi agents, but is saved by Fury and Gabe. As the virus starts to take its effect, Drummer asks Gabe to make it stop, which he does with his gun. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #117 pg19pn7 
Gabe plays taps at Drummers funeral. 

References: 
Continued from last issue. 

For those who care: Since this is continued from last issue, and therefore before May 1943, Im assuming that Bellaman was captured in Africa and brought to Germany to be tested on. 


Sgt. Fury #118 
Appearances: 
Sgt. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Reb Ralston, Dino Manelli, Gabe Jones, Izzy Cohen, Pinky Pinkerton, Capt. Sawyer, Gen. Rommel, Sir Bernard Law Montgomery. 

Synopsis: 
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #118-FB pg7-pg10 
Captain Sawyer meets with General Montgomery at El Alamein and they discuss battle strategies. Sawyer then gives Fury and his Howlers their mission: capture a German tank. A few hours later they do so, but the tank driver radios to his camp. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #118 pg1-pg6 
Driving a stolen Panzer III, the Howling Commandos close in on Rommels camp and take out a Nazi scouting party. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #118 pg11-20 
Out of gas, the Howlers are surrounded by German tanks. Theyre captured and brought to the Nazi camp; the Howlers are put in the stockades and Fury is brought to Rommel. After a chat, Fury attacks his guards, and hes brought to the stockades himself. That night they stage an escape and retake the tank, damaging Rommels chances of victory. 

References: 
Noted as 30 August 1942. 

An editors note says this takes place before Sgt. Fury #6, but that was before the Howlers timeline was moved around by the Invaders, Marvel Universe, Captain America: the Medusa Effect, and some other books. Thanks to this new information Im ignoring the editors note and going with the date. 


Sgt. Fury #119 
Appearances: 
Sgt. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Reb Ralston, Dino Manelli, Gabe Jones, Izzy Cohen, Pinky Pinkerton, Capt. Sawyer. 

Synopsis: 
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #119-FB pg5-pg6pn5 
Colonel Sawyer gives Fury and Dum Dum a mission: eliminate Reich Marshal Heindrich Von Innsbruck, also known as the Planner, whos apparently over one hundred years old. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #119-FB pg6pn6-pg7pn3 
Above Switzerland, the Howlers jump out of their transport plane. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #119 pg1-pg4 
The Howlers parachute into the Bavarian Alps and take an unlucky German soldier captive. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #119 pg7pn4-pg18 
The Howlers make their way to Hawk Eyrie, but are stopped by Major Rudolph Kruuger of the Gestapo. They defeat them and make their way into the castle where they discover that the Planner is kept alive by machines. They overpower the guards and destroy the castle, with the Planner still inside. 

References: 
Noted as 10 October 1944. 

Sgt. Fury #120 
Appearances: 
Sgt. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Reb Ralston, Dino Manelli, Gabe Jones, Izzy Cohen, Pinky Pinkerton. 

Synopsis: 
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #120 pg1-pg18 
The Howlers parachute into Holland to obtain plans for the new Nazi buzz-bombs at a German rocket plant. They meet with the local resistance and complete their mission, but as they leave they come across a train taking Jewish prisoners to a concentration camp. Izzy realizes that his uncle lives nearby in Roermond, and fears that hes been captured. They give the buzz-bomb plans to the resistance so he can get them to England, and they get themselves into the camp. Theyre quickly discovered, Izzy gets away with his uncle and the rest are captured. Fury learns that Izzys uncle was killed a while ago, and the man with Izzy is a spy. They break free, kill the imposter, and break the news to Izzy. 

References: 
has Izzy never met or seen pictures of his uncle? 

Almost no placement clues, except that everything reads like this occurs relatively early in the Howlers career. New buzz-bombs, Izzy learns a lesson, etc. 

Some placement suggestions: 

FURY, SGT. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
 
SGTF 29 
FURY 1-FB (6:3-8) 
*SGTF 118-FB 
*SGTF 118 (08/30/42) 
*SGTF 120 
SGTF 30 
 
SGTF 42 
GAM3 10 (1943) 
*SGTF 114-FB 
*SGTF 112 
*SGTF 114 
*SGTF 115 
*SGTF 116 
*SGTF 117 
SGTF 43 
 
SGTF@ 2 (06/06/44) 
*SGTF 110 
*SGTF 119-FB 
*SGTF 119 (10/10/44) 
WX2 14-FB 
 
SGTF@ 4 (31-44)-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF 106-FB 
*SGTF 106 (02/45) 
*SGTF 108-FB 
*SGTF 108 (02/45) 
CA: SL2 12-FB 
SGTF@ 1 
 


DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM" 
 
SGTF 29 
*SGTF 118-FB 
*SGTF 118 (08/30/42) 
*SGTF 120 
SGTF 30 
 
SGTF 42 
GAM3 10 (1943) 
*SGTF 114-FB 
*SGTF 114 
*SGTF 115 
*SGTF 116 
*SGTF 117 
SGTF 43 
 
SGTF@ 2 (06/06/44) 
*SGTF 110 
*SGTF 119-FB 
*SGTF 119 (10/10/44) 
CA3 20/2-FB 
 
SGTF@ 4 (31-44)-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF 106-FB 
*SGTF 106 (02/45) 
*SGTF 108-FB 
*SGTF 108 (02/45) 
CA: SL2 12-FB 
SGTF@ 1 
 


RALSTON, ROBERT "REB" 
 
SGTF 29 
*SGTF 118-FB 
*SGTF 118 (08/30/42) 
*SGTF 120 
SGTF 30 
 
SGTF 42 
GAM3 10 (1943) 
*SGTF 114-FB 
*SGTF 114 
*SGTF 115 
*SGTF 116 
*SGTF 117 
SGTF 43 
 
SGTF@ 2 (06/06/44) 
*SGTF 110 
*SGTF 119-FB 
*SGTF 119 (10/10/44) 
CA3 20/2-FB-BTS 
 
SGTF@ 4 (31-44)-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF 106-FB 
*SGTF 106 (02/45) 
*SGTF 108-FB 
*SGTF 108 (02/45) 
SGTF@ 1 
 


MANELLI, DINO 
 
SGTF 29 
*SGTF 118-FB 
*SGTF 118 (08/30/42) 
*SGTF 120 
SGTF 30 
 
SGTF 42 
GAM3 10 (1943) 
*SGTF 114-FB 
*SGTF 114 
*SGTF 115 
*SGTF 116 
*SGTF 117 
SGTF 43 
 
SGTF@ 2 (06/06/44) 
*SGTF 110 
*SGTF 119-FB 
*SGTF 119 (10/10/44) 
SGTF@ 4-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF 106-FB 
*SGTF 106 (02/45) 
*SGTF 108-FB 
*SGTF 108 (02/45) 
SGTF@ 1 
 


JONES, GABRIEL "GABE" 
*SGTF 117-FB 
SGTF 34-FB 
 
SGTF 29 
*SGTF 118-FB 
*SGTF 118 (08/30/42) 
*SGTF 120 
SGTF 30 
 
SGTF 42 
GAM3 10 (1943) 
*SGTF 114-FB 
*SGTF 114 
*SGTF 115 
*SGTF 116 
*SGTF 117 
SGTF 43 
 
SGTF@ 2 (06/06/44) 
*SGTF 110 
*SGTF 119-FB 
*SGTF 119 (10/10/44) 
CA3 20/2-FB 
 
SGTF@ 4 (31-44)-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF 106-FB 
*SGTF 106 (02/45) 
*SGTF 108-FB 
*SGTF 108 (02/45) 
SGTF@ 1 
 


COHEN, "IZZY" 
 
SGTF 29 
*SGTF 118-FB 
*SGTF 118 (08/30/42) 
*SGTF 120 
SGTF 30 
 
SGTF 42 
GAM3 10 (1943) 
*SGTF 114-FB 
*SGTF 114 
*SGTF 115 
*SGTF 116 
*SGTF 117 
SGTF 43 
 
SGTF@ 2 (06/06/44) 
*SGTF 110 
*SGTF 119-FB 
*SGTF 119 (10/10/44) 
SGTF@ 4-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF 106-FB 
*SGTF 106 (02/45) 
*SGTF 108-FB 
*SGTF 108 (02/45) 
SGTF@ 1 
 


PINKERTON, PERCIVAL "PINKY" 
 
SGTF 29 
*SGTF 118-FB 
*SGTF 118 (08/30/42) 
*SGTF 120 
SGTF 30 
 
SGTF 42 
GAM3 10 (1943) 
*SGTF 114-FB 
*SGTF 114 
*SGTF 115 
*SGTF 116 
*SGTF 117 
SGTF 43 
 
SGTF@ 2 (06/06/44) 
*SGTF 119-FB 
*SGTF 119 (10/10/44) 
SGTF@ 4 (6-30)-FB (12/44) 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 
SGTF@ 4 (31-44)-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF 106-FB 
*SGTF 106 (02/45) 
*SGTF 108-FB 
*SGTF 108 (02/45) 
SGTF@ 1 
 


SAWYER, CAPTAIN SAMUEL 
 
SGTF 29 
FURY 1-FB 
*SGTF 118-FB 
*SGTF 118 (08/30/42) 
SGTF 31 
 
SGTF 42 
GAM3 10-BTS (1943) 
*SGTF 114 
*SGTF 115 
*SGTF 116 
*SGTF 117 
SGTF 43 
 

SGTF@ 2 (06/06/44) 
*SGTF 119-FB 
SGTF@ 4-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF 106-FB 
*SGTF 108-FB 
SGTF@ 1 
 


KOENIG, ERIC 
 
SGTF 42 
*SGTF 114-FB 
*SGTF 114 
*SGTF 115 
*SGTF 116 
*SGTF 117 
SGTF 43 
 
SGTF@ 4-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF 106-FB 
*SGTF 106 (02/45) 
*SGTF 108-FB 
*SGTF 108 (02/45) 
 

MCGIVENEY, SGT. BULL 
 
SGTF 42 
SGTF 116 
SGTF 46 
 

BARON STRUCKER/WOLFGANG VON STRUCKER 
 
CS 4 
GAM3 10 (2-5), (13-16) (1943) 
SGTF 114-FB 
*SGTF 112 
SGTF 114 
M/U 1 
 

MONTGOMERY, SIR BERNARD LAW 
INV 30 
*SGTF 118-FB 

EISENHOWER, GEN. DWIGHT D. 
SGTF@ 2 
*SGTF 108-FB 

ROMMEL, GEN. ERWIN 
SGTF 6-FB 
SGTF 6 
INV 23-FB-BTS 
INV 23-BTS 
INV 25 
*SGTF 118 (08/30/42) 
SGTF 43 
SGTF@ 2-BTS 


My suggestions are starting to get spread around, so since this is my 700th post, heres what I have nailed down for Nick Fury so far: (edited to include recent suggestions) 

FURY, SGT. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
ST 159-FB 
M/HOL 1994 JAN/2 (4:3)-FB 
SGTF 7 (16:4-16:5)-FB 
SGTF 34 (5:2)-FB-FB 
SGTF 7 (11:1 -11:3)-FB 
SGTF 53-FB 
M/HOL 1994 JAN/2 (4:4)-FB 
SGTF 34 (3:3 - 17:7)-FB (05/40) 
MARVELS 1 
SGTF 62 
FURY: PM 1-FB (5) 
FURY: PM 1-FB (8) 
FURY: PM 1-FB (10) 
FURY: PM 1-FB (13) 
FURY: PM 1 
FURY: PM 2 
SGTF 34 (18:2-19:9)-FB (12/41) 
SGTF 11-FB 
SGTF 44-FB 
{SGTF 1} 
SGTF 2 
SGTF 3 
SGTF 4 
SGTF 5 
SGTF 6 
SGTF 7 
SGTF 8 
SGTF 9 
SGTF 10 
SGTF 11 
SGTF 12 
SGTF 13-FB 
SGTF 13 (1-13:3) 
SGTF 13 (13:4-18)~CA 383/2 (1-6) 
DF 2.4-FB 
SGTF 13 (19-22:3)~CA 383/2 (7-9) 
DF 3.6 
SGTF 13 (22:2-23) 
SGTF 14 
SGTF 15 
SGTF 16 
SGTF 17 
INV 35 
DRSTR2 50 
DRSTR2 51 
M/HOL 1994 JAN/2 (4:5-4:7)-FB 
SGTF 18 
SGTF 19 
SGTF 20 
SGTF 21 
SGTF 22 
SGTF 23 
SGTF 24 
SGTF 25 
SGTF 26 
SGTF 27 
SGTF 28 
SGTF 29 
FURY 1-FB (6:3-8) 
SGTF 118-FB 
SGTF 118 (08/30/42) 
SGTF 120 
SGTF 30 
SGTF 31 
SGTF 32 
SGTF 33 
SGTF 34 
SGTF 35 
SGTF 36 
SGTF 37 
SGTF 38 
SGTF 39 
SGTF 40 
SGTF 41 
SGTF 42 
GAM3 10 (1943) 
SGTF 114-FB 
SGTF 112 
SGTF 114 
SGTF 115 
SGTF 116 
SGTF 117 
SGTF 43 
SGTF 44 
SGTF 45-FB 
SGTF 45 
SGTF 46 
SGTF 47 
SGTF 48 
SGTF 88 (07/43) 
M/CP 77/3 
M/CP 78/2 
M/CP 79/2 
SGTF 49 (10/43) 
SGTF 50 (11/43) 
CS 1 (11/43) 
SGTF 51 (11/28/43) 
SGTF 52 
SGTF 53 
SGTF 54 
SGTF 55 
SGTF 56 
SGTF 57 
SGTF 58 
SGTF 59 (1-7) 
SGTF 60 (5:3)-FB 
SGTF 59 (8-16:2) 
SGTF 60 (6:1-6:2)-FB 
SGTF 59 (16:3-19) 
SGTF 60 (6:3)-FB 
SGTF 59 (20) 
SGTF 60 
SGTF 61 
SGTF 63 
CS 11 
SGTF 64 
NA: AAFES 3 
SGTF 81 (1-2) 
NF3 11-FB 
CA@ 9/2-FB (04/44) 
CA: 65AS 1 (04/44) 
SGTF 65 
SGTF 66 
SGTF 67 
SGTF 68 
SGTF 69 
SGTF 70 
SGTF 71 (05/44) 
SGTF 75-FB 
SGTF 72 
SGTF@ 2 (06/06/44) 
SGTF 73-FB 
SGTF 73 
SGTF 74 
SGTF 75 
NF3 3-FB 
NF3 4-FB 
NF3 5-FB 
SGTF 76 
SGTF 77 
SGTF 78 
SGTF 79 (08/14/44) 
SGTF 110 
SGTF 81 (3-20) 
SGTF 83 
SGTF 84 
SGTF 86-FB 
SGTF 86 
SGTF 119-FB 
SGTF 119 (10/10/44) 
CA/NF: OWW (10/44) 
WX2 14-FB 
SGTF 90 
SGTF 92-FB 
SGTF 92 
CA3 20/2-FB 
CA3 20/2 
CA3 21/2 
SGTF@ 4 (6-30)-FB (12/44) 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 
SGTF@ 4 (31-44)-FB (12/44) 
SGTF 94 
SGTF 96 
SGTF 97 
SGTF 98-FB 
SGTF 98 
CK 1-FB-BTS 
SGTF 102 
SGTF 104 (01/45) 
CK 4 (01/45) 
SGTF 106-FB 
SGTF 106 (02/45) 
SGTF 108-FB 
SGTF 108 (02/45) 
M/SPT 31 (3:2-3:5)-FB (03/45) 
NF3 30-FB 
M/SPT 31 (3:6)-FB 
WX2 23 (1-4)-FB 
MM 5-FB (1945) 
CA: SL2 12-FB 
F: PM 3 
F: PM 4 
F: PM 5 
F: PM 6 
NF3 38-FB 
M/SPT 31 (3:7-4:4)-FB (03/46) 
SGTF@ 1 (KOREA) 
 

Up next: Captain America/Nick Fury: the Otherworld War!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

Last edited by Col_Fury on 06 Oct 2007 11:36 pm; edited 7 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Mar 2007 04:44 am    
By Enda80

Incidentally, a while ago, someone noted that a Sgt. 
Fury story in 117 or so showed Germany bombing Britain 
at a point which seemed too late in the conflict 
(after D-Day). So, it was postulated that this could 
serve as a the last valiant effort of a scientist 
(such as Zemo). Well, Midnight Suns Unlimited#9's 
Blazing Skull story where Germany has developed the 
Vergel: Tungswaffe Dei: The V-3, a weapon they use 
after January 1945 to resume the attack on Britain affords 
us cover for any story where London bombings follow 
D-Day.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Mar 2007 07:34 am    
By Col_Fury

But I'm not suggesting a placement after D-Day for SGTF 117, I'm suggesting it's in May 1943. 

It's amazing: I point out to you, and link to your most recent subject of it, that there's a Jameson active in 1944, running the Daily Bugle, and you pass on that to bring up this same subject for the third or fourth time? The second time in a direct post to me? Sigh... 

The character running the Bugle here in 1944 was named 'Jonah Jameson.' The character running the Bugle in the 'current day' is named 'J. Jonah Jameson.' So there you go, two different characters. One's first name is Jonah, the other's isn't. No more 'Old Man Jameson,' he has a first name. 

Happy Birthday.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 39

Posted: 20 Mar 2007 02:23 am    Post subject: Spider-Man: The Arachnis Project 1-6
By JLH

The Gap gets Jury duty. 

------------------------------------ 
SPIDER-MAN: THE ARACHNIS PROJECT #1 [Aug 1994] 
Writer: Mike Lackey 
Breakdowns: Andrew Wildman 
Finishes: Stephen Baskerville 
"The Arachnis Project, Part One: Ties That Bind!" 

Cast: 
SCREECH/MAX TAYLOR 
SENTRY II/CURTIS ELKINS 
FIREARM 
RAMSHOT/SAMUEL CAULKIN 
BOMBLAST 
TAYLOR, ORWELL 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
STONE II/GERALD 
STYX/JACOB EICHORN 
MIKASHI, PROF. TOSHIRO (Peter's college biology professor) 
DRAKE, CARLTON (in shadow) 
TREECE, ROLAND (in shadow) 
SNEAK THIEF 
SPOILER 
WARRANT II/GRAY GARRISON 

Other characters: 
Thankful Yuppies 
Pair of guys in Dark Suits 
Powers, Jerry (dies) 
Pair of Deli-robbing crooks 
O'Brien, Anne (reporter on TV) 


Summary: The Jury trains against a Venom robot. Did you know they hate Venom? Yes, that's pretty much their only schtick. Well, their training doesn't impress their commander, General Orwell, who chides Ramshot over his inability to be decisive in battle and actually kill something as why he'll never get off of reserve status. 

Anyway, over on Wall Street, Spider-Man fights Styx and Stone. He beats them. Some yuppies offer free advice in gratitude to Spidey, which involves voicing Capital Gains Stocks, since there's a crime wave in D.C. Spidey interrogates Stone briefly, and learns of a connection, as Styx and he were contacted by a Secret Society a few months prior, seeking criminals to be their staff thieves and swipe some antiquites. This piques Spider-Man's interest, and he considers going down to check in on the situation. 

Said "Secret Society" hires a woman calling herself Sneak Thief, since for some reason, she has the powers to refract infrared light, all but ultraviolet, making her the perfect cat burglar. The society's previous thief stealing antiques, a guy named Spoiler, has moved up to a higher position already. 

Down in DC, Williams University Professor Mikashi is met by a pair of MiBs called merely "Dark Suits". They seek a progress report, and push him to step up production of what he's been hired to do, a threat being made toward his daughter otherwise. One of his students, Jerry, accidentally stumbles onto a file concerning what he was hired to work on, something called the Arachnis Project. Needless to say, he's killed moments after finding it. 

It makes the news, especially since Jerry's body turns up mummified so quickly, and rots to dust! Spider-Man hears this while catching some crooks, and since it involves his old college biology professor Mikashi, not to mention Mikashi's ties with secret government projects... it's time for Spidey to max out his credit cards to grab a commuter shuttle flight out of LaGuardia and head to Washington, DC! He's there by that night, and immediately heads for Williams University. Of course, it turns out Sneak Thief's target is a 500 year old vase housed within the university's antiquities department. Spidey spots her, but before he can bust her for the theft, Spoiler, a gun-toting dope, bursts in, since Sneaky just failed her try out. Before he can rub her out, Warrant, the bounty hunter and armored dope whose guns are on his hands, shows up, having been hired to find whoever is behind the crime wave. 


Continuity notes: This is after ASM 383-385, as per a footnote concerning Ramshot's reserve status. 

Aunt May is in the hospital at this point. Spider-Man mentions a concern about going to Washington, DC is "time away from Aunt May". 

We don't get told who shadowy figures are until about issue 3 and 4. 

------------------------------------ 
SPIDER-MAN: THE ARACHNIS PROJECT #2 [Sep 1994] 
Writer: Mike Lackey 
Breakdowns: Andrew Wildman 
Finishes: Stephen Baskerville 
"The Arachnis Project, Part Two: Bringing Down The House!" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
SNEAK THIEF 
SPOILER 
WARRANT II/GRAY GARRISON 
MIKASHI, PROF. TOSHIRO 
SCREECH/MAX TAYLOR 
SENTRY II/CURTIS ELKINS 
FIREARM 
RAMSHOT/SAMUEL CAULKIN 
BOMBLAST 
VENOM 
BROCK, EDDIE 
GUNPLAY/MIHO MIKASHI 
TAYLOR, ORWELL (BTS. He sends the Digger.) 


Other characters: 
Mr Reynard (Warrant's agent. BTS) 
Curator of museum 
Unnamed Captain and other Cops 
TV reporter and cameraman 
Baker, Paul (geology department supervisor) 
Trio of guys in Dark Suits 
Man in Digger armor 


Summary: Kabloosey! Spoiler and Warrant shoot at each other a lot. Spidey helps get Sneak Thief out of the line of fire, then tries to put a stop to the pair of trigger-happy operatives. Nobody dies, but the building sure ends up looking like swiss-cheese. Sneak Thief tries to escape, but Warrant foils her getaway. Having successfully recovered the vase and "stopped" the crime wave for a hefty price, Warrant flies off on his jet boots. Right after he departs, one of the those giant Digger armor suit rips through the ground and snatches Sneaky. Spider-Man has a heck of time saving her, not to mention some rubbernecking reporter and her cameraman. So, the Digger gets away with Sneak Thief. Luckily for Spidey, one of the University's geology guys warns him before he tries following the collapsing tunnel behind the Digger. 

Nearby, Mikashi tries to find the diskette with the Arachnis Project file on it, worried the police confiscated it from the crime scene. The two Dark Suits drop in with it, having taken it from Jerry before they killed him by injecting him with the project's resulting serum. Or something. Anyway, Mikashi's no longer a suspect thanks to those shadowy government agenty type guys. 

In their underground bunker base, the Jury sit around a table and have dinner. Guess what? Orwell hooked them up with the "Secret Society" guys! See how it connects? Well, the team isn't too happy, they want to get out there and go after Venom, but are forced to twiddle their thumbs and train for hours on end. There's some arguing about why Venom must be killed (Ramshot, of course). Screech recaps things for us, how his brother Hugh was murdered by Venom, and goes into detail why each of the Jury is part of the team. Speaking of which, in San Francisco, a guy in black sees Spidey fighting a Digger on TV, and takes to himself about "our" old pal Drake and his Life Foundation being once again active, and "they" head to DC. 

Spidey slips out of his costume and goes to see Mikashi as Peter Parker. He meets his daugher, Miho, briefly. Anyway, Mikashi tells Pete all about the Arachnis Project. He was hired by what he thought was a secret branch of the government, to try to cure cancer by utilizing the genetic makeup of the exo-skeleton of a spider to expunge toxins from a person. Of course, this work was already used to create a weapon, an enzyme that digests whoever is injected with it, which is what killed Jerry. The Dark Suits attack Mikashi's place, gassing all within. Even Peter is taken by surprise, and collapses. 


Continuity notes: Spidey refers to Warrant's "killing" of the Lizard from Web of Spidey #112, putting this after that. I mean, it's obvious, but I had to mention it. 


Goofs: What's Venom doing staying in a hotel room in San Fran? He lives underground with homeless people. The panel even clearly shows gum on the ground, he's looking at a TV in a store window or something! 


------------------------------------ 
SPIDER-MAN: THE ARACHNIS PROJECT #3 [Oct 1994] 
Writer: Mike Lackey 
Breakdowns: Andrew Wildman 
Finishes: Steven Baskerville 
"The Arachnis Project, Part Three: Jury Rigged!" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
MIKASHI, PROF. TOSHIRO (also in FB) 
GUNPLAY/MIHO MIKASHI 
SNEAK THIEF 
SPOILER 
SCREECH/MAX TAYLOR 
SENTRY II/CURTIS ELKINS 
FIREARM 
RAMSHOT/SAMUEL CAULKIN 
BOMBLAST 
TAYLOR, ORWELL 
ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE" 
DRAKE, CARLTON 
TREECE, ROLAND 
VENOM (BTS) 
BROCK, EDDIE 


Other characters: 
Trio of guys in Dark Suits 
Man in Digger armor 
Danner, Vickie (Bugle's DC liaison) 


Summary: The Dark Suits kidnap Mikashi, but before they can kill Peter, Miho saves the day by brandishing a gun and sending the evil MiBs running. She nearly does the same to Peter, since they didn't show up until he did also. He convinces her otherwise, and then finds a bug nearby which shows how they were listening to the Professor's confession. Peter relays what Miho's father told him, and she talks about the sob story that is Prof Mikashi's life. Pete vows to find and bring him back. Once he departs, he dons the Spider-Man costume, and sets out to do just that 

Down in the underground bunker, the Digger deposits Sneak Thief. Orwell chews her out for failing with her audition, but when she mentions Spidey's involvement, the Jury is excited to finally have an old target to once again go after. Of course, they'll also be testing out some new prototype armor donated by the "Secret Society". The Jury butts heads with the Dark Suits, who seem to frown upon the armored operatives. Not to mention, they're antsy about going after Venom, which Orwell reminds his son, there's no capital in doing, and by aligning with the "society" and aiding them with this situation, they'll be helped in return. Soon, Orwell meets with the two shadowy heads of said society. Ya see, Drake is all coughy, and is dying of cancer. He wants the Arachnis Project to not only survive cancer, but survive the eventual "end of days". His right hand man, Treece, secretly hopes Drake doesn't make it, so he can run the Life Foundation himself. Orwell makes a televised statement, claiming the Digger unit seen was stolen, so as to throw off anyone connecting the Life Foundation with the crime wave. But Spidey, dropping by a Bugle liasion Robbie pointed him towards, gets wind of this statement, and when the woman brings up the LF's M.O., he finally makes the connection of post-apocalyptic survivors with Mikashi's experiments. 

So our hero tracks down some Dark Suits and is on his way to finding the bunker where the LF is holed up, when the Jury pops up, trying out their new armor. There's lots of fighting atop a black, unmarked van, which eventually crashes. Spidey is knocked unconscious as a result, and taken away by the Jury. 

Oh, and Venom boards a plane, while Sneak Thief sneaks out of her cell. 


Flashback: Prof. Mikashi as a child. His family opposed WWII and fled to the States, only to be as ostracized here and they were there. We see him become a scientist, but was overlooked for promotions, laughed at by some other guys. 

There's a picture of Mikashi with a younger, college-age Peter, smiling together in the ESU Yearbook, but as to when it was exactly, your guess, mine... neither matters! 


Continuity notes: Spidey mentions he's "barely Peter anymore. I'm Spider-Man, now... virtually all the time." 


Goofs: Spidey doesn't even bother to lift up the bottom of his mask when calling Robbie on the phone. Any true Web-Head knows if he doesn't do that, he sounds muffled! 

Vickie asks if Spidey's collecting info for "Webs 2". But that was Peter Parker's book. Even odder is she says Robbie told her he'd be dropping by. Peter never mentions Spidey to Robbie. This is all BEFORE Spidey says "Peter Parker sent me". So, what, does she know his true identity? 

Where did Venom get the money for a first class plane ticket? Oh, right, he's a criminal. Sorry. 

The Jury's "new, lighter armor" makes most of them look like Warrant. Seriously. Yet, they have no connection, other than the fact he was in issues 1 and 2. 


------------------------------------ 
SPIDER-MAN: THE ARACHNIS PROJECT #4 [Nov 1994] 
Writer: Mike Lackey 
Breakdowns: Andrew Wildman 
Finishes: Stephen Baskerville 
"The Arachnis Project, Part 4: Stick a Fork in Him..." 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
SCREECH/MAX TAYLOR 
SENTRY II/CURTIS ELKINS 
FIREARM 
RAMSHOT/SAMUEL CAULKIN 
BOMBLAST 
TAYLOR, ORWELL 
DRAKE, CARLTON (becomes HOMO ARACHNIS) 
TREECE, ROLAND 
SNEAK THIEF 
SPOILER 
GUNPLAY/MIHO MIKASHI 
VENOM 
BROCK, EDDIE 
MIKASHI, PROF. TOSHIRO 

Other characters: 
Guys in Dark Suits 


Summary: So, brought to the underground bunker HQ of the Life Foundation, Spider-Man is chained up to an electrical device thing by the Jury. Attempts to demask him are met with a blast of webbing. The Jury continues to mope and whine about not getting to go after Venom, with more bumping heads with Dark Suits. Sneak Thief makes her way through the complex, overhearing the Jury's troubles. Mikashi goes over what the Arachnis Project will do, disposable artifical exo-skeletons based on the spider. Drake reminds us he thinks the apocalypse is coming and this will allow him, and chosen others, to survive it. That's why they were having antiques stolen, to ensure they survive the impending nuclear holocaust. In case Mikashi doesn't want to help Drake out, they have Miho captive now, and threaten to harm her. So, after a pointless scene involving possibly lobotomizing Spidey, there's more bickering between Screech and his father, then the Jury decides to revolt, since killing Spidey is wrong. Meanwhile, Venom arrives in Washington, DC, webbing up some crooks at the airport. Back in the bunker, Mikashi tries to save Spidey, and gets shot for his efforts. But it does get Spider-Man time to get freed, and things get almost free-for-all-ish as the Dark Suits fight the Jury, with Spoiler, who was befallen by Miho just prior, also helping his employers. Drake injects himself with the Arachnis serum, his buddy Treece hoping it'll kill the old coot. Venom finds the bunker's entrance, then takes a whole issue before entering, apparently. Miho stumbles onto fellow escapee, Sneak Thief. Spidey roughs up Orwell, but can't go through with hurting him. Mikashi is wounded, but alive, and when he and Spidey go after Miho, the Dark Suits bust in and stop them, taking the pair captive again. Spoiler prepares to quit, but he finds his boss, Carlton Drake, has transformed into a brown spiderish creature calling himself "homo arachnis". 


Continuity notes: Page 12 is indentical to issue 1 page 20, with Venom in place of Spidey. Not really important, but it's a nice bookend of sorts. 


------------------------------------ 
SPIDER-MAN: THE ARACHNIS PROJECT #5 [Dec 1994] 
Writer: Mike Lackey 
Pencils: Andrew Wildman 
Inks: Stephen Baskerville 
"The Arachnis Project, Part 5: Hittin' The Fan!" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
TAYLOR, ORWELL 
SPOILER 
DRAKE, CARLTON (as HOMO ARACHNIS) 
SCREECH/MAX TAYLOR 
SENTRY II/CURTIS ELKINS 
FIREARM 
RAMSHOT/SAMUEL CAULKIN 
BOMBLAST 
SNEAK THIEF 
GUNPLAY/MIHO MIKASHI 
TREECE, ROLAND 
VENOM 
BROCK, EDDIE 
MIKASHI, PROF. TOSHIRO (dies) 

Other characters: 
Guys in Dark Suits 


Summary: So, the newly transformed Drake goes on a rampage, eating Dark Suits on the way. Spidey and Mikashi slip away during the chaos. Orwell also tries to make a getaway, taking his son, Screech, with him. Spidey gets Mikashi to the surface, and goes back in after Miho, only to have the Professor follow back into the bunker to set things right soon after. The Jury teams up with Spoiler in taking on Homo Arachnis, only to find their teammate, Screech, is taking off with their General, leaving them all for dead. Elsewhere, Miho and Sneak Thief find the Jury's barracks, and utlizing leftover armor and arsenal, they suit up, with Miho taking on the 'macho' name of Gunplay. The Jury's battle with the Homo... Arachnis, of course... is at a standstill, with Spoiler fleeing, and Spidey replacing him in the melee. Orwell and Screech escape in a shuttle alongside Treece. Mikashi goes down to the reactor core and overheats it, in an effort to destroy the bunker and his entire life's work. He says goodbye to Miho over a viewscreen, and is soon melted away as the core starts to explode. So Sneaky and Miho join up with the Jury, and everybody prepares to flee, with the window to escape closing ever quickly. Now's the time for Venom to show up, hungry for brains! 


Continuity notes: Miho takes on the name of Gunplay here. It's probably not "official", but what really is in the superhero business? 

Goofs: Orwell calls Treece "Maynard" several times. His name is Roland! 


------------------------------------ 
SPIDER-MAN: THE ARACHNIS PROJECT #6 [Jan 1995] 
Writer: Mike Lackey 
Pencils: Andrew Wildman 
Inks: Stephen Baskerville 
"The Concluding Chapter of the Arachnis Project: Battle Royal!" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
VENOM 
BROCK, EDDIE 
SCREECH/MAX TAYLOR 
SENTRY II/CURTIS ELKINS 
FIREARM 
RAMSHOT/SAMUEL CAULKIN 
BOMBLAST 
SNEAK THIEF 
GUNPLAY/MIHO MIKASHI 
TAYLOR, ORWELL 
TREECE, ROLAND 
DRAKE, CARLTON (final time as HOMO ARACHNIS) 

Other characters: 
Guys in Dark Suits 
Police 


Summary: Venom is prepared to kill everybody in the bunker, forcing the Jury and Spidey to fight him off. Soon, though, Spidey convinces them that Miho is an innocent in need of saving, which overrides his desire to kill. But she fights off Venom, making her less than innocent. Before he can kill Miho like he once killed Screech's brother, Ramshot finally grows a spine and fires upon him, still unable to kill, but also finally unwilling to hold back. Before everyone can get out of the exploding bunker, Homo Arachnis returns. Screech, who abandoned his father in his escape plan and realized his true place was with his teammates, not with trying to replace his brother, arrives just in time to help the Jury out. Venom soon awakens and goes after what was once Carlton Drake, forcing Spidey and Screech to risk their lives by following deeper into the bunker to try to ensure Brock gets out. Venom thinks he finishes off Homo Arachnis, goes invisible, and makes his own escape. Spidey and Screech rejoin the Jury, but with their armors lacking in energy, it's up to Sneak Thief's special powers to get them safely out of the bunker's defenses. They all get out just in the nick of time, with the Life Foundation's bunker going nuclear just after they exit it. Orwell and Treece don't get far before some jets flank their federal-airspace-violating craft. The General is ready to face his past, having accepted his role in his criminal activities. Oh, and luckily, the bunker made to keep out radiation managed to keep in the same. Venom slips into the crowd after the police arrive, arresting the remaining Dark Suits. Sneak Thief seems to buddy up with the Jury. Spidey thinks to himself about stuff, hoping he won't end up like Mikashi, having tried to do good in life only to leave a crummy legacy behind for his loved ones to mop up. 

Later, Carlton Drake crawls from the wreckage miles away. His Homo Arachnis exo-skeleton has been shed, and he's got a brand spanking and sparkling new, younger body as a result. Cancer free, but having depleted his healing powers and now lacking the formula, he vows vengeance on the Jury, Venom, and Spidey. 12 years later, we realize he must have gotten sidetracked and forgotten what he was doing. He was an old man, after all. 


Continuity notes: Strangely, Venom either flew back to San Francisco, then flew back to the East Coast once again after the Ravencroft battle in "Power and Responsibilty", or he stayed in D.C. for a short while, despite his claims of hopping the next flight out. The fact Yellow Symbiote Donna tracked Venom down to NY so quickly in "Web of Life" kind of implies he was dawdling on the East Coast (not to mention, she has ties to the Life Foundation). 

We see a picture of Orwell, Screech, and the often-talked about Max Taylor. Just thought I'd note that, ya never know when pictures will become listable appearances. 


------------------------------------ 


SCREECH/MAX TAYLOR 
... 
ASM 385 
**SM:AP 1 
**SM:AP 2 
**SM:AP 3 
**SM:AP 4 
**SM:AP 5 
**SM:AP 6 
V:STA 1/2 
... 

SENTRY II/CURTIS ELKINS 
... 
ASM 384 
**ASM 385 
[ASM 386]-REMOVE 
**SM:AP 1 
**SM:AP 2 
**SM:AP 3 
**SM:AP 4 
**SM:AP 5 
**SM:AP 6 
V:STA 1/2 
... 


FIREARM 
... 
ASM 385 
**SM:AP 1 
**SM:AP 2 
**SM:AP 3 
**SM:AP 4 
**SM:AP 5 
**SM:AP 6 
V:STA 1/2 
... 

RAMSHOT/SAMUEL CAULKIN 
... 
ASM 385 
**SM:AP 1 
**SM:AP 2 
**SM:AP 3 
**SM:AP 4 
**SM:AP 5 
**SM:AP 6 
V:STA 1/2 
... 


BOMBLAST 
... 
ASM 385 
**SM:AP 1 
**SM:AP 2 
**SM:AP 3 
**SM:AP 4 
**SM:AP 5 
**SM:AP 6 
V:STA 1/2 
... 

TAYLOR, ORWELL 
... 
ASM 385 
**SM:AP 1 
**SM:AP 2-BTS 
**SM:AP 3 
**SM:AP 4 
**SM:AP 5 
**SM:AP 6 

STONE II/GERALD 
... 
ASM 377 
**SM:AP 1 

STYX/JACOB EICHORN 
... 
ASM 377 
**SM:AP 1 

WARRANT II/GRAY GARRISON 
WOSM 110 
WOSM 111 
WOSM 112 
[WOSM@10 and Nightwatch 4 probably go here] 
**SM:AP 1 
**SM:AP 2 

DRAKE, CARLTON 
... 
V:LP 5 
V:SA 2-FB 
**SM:AP 1 
**SM:AP 3 
**SM:AP 4 
**SM:AP 5 
**SM:AP 6 

TREECE, ROLAND 
... 
V:LP 6 
**SM:AP 1 
**SM:AP 3 
**SM:AP 4 
**SM:AP 5 
**SM:AP 6 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
... 
FFU 7 
**SM:AP 1 
**SM:AP 2 
**SM:AP 3 
**SM:AP 4 
**SM:AP 5 
**SM:AP 6 
ASM 392 
... 

VENOM [SYMBIOTE] 
(added alien race 'name') 
... 
SSWP 30 
**SM:AP 2 
**SM:AP 3-BTS 
**SM:AP 4 
**SM:AP 5 
**SM:AP 6 
WOSM 118 
... 

BROCK, EDDIE 
... 
SSWP 30 
**SM:AP 2 
**SM:AP 3 
**SM:AP 4 
**SM:AP 5 
**SM:AP 6 
WOSM 118 
... 


**SPOILER 
SM:AP 1 
SM:AP 2 
SM:AP 3 
SM:AP 4 
SM:AP 5 

**SNEAK THIEF 
SM:AP 1 
SM:AP 2 
SM:AP 3 
SM:AP 4 
SM:AP 5 
SM:AP 6 

**GUNPLAY/MIHO MIKASHI 
SM:AP 2 
SM:AP 3 
SM:AP 4 
SM:AP 5 
SM:AP 6 

**MIKASHI, PROF. TOSHIRO 
SM:AP 3-FB 
{SM:AP 1} 
SM:AP 2 
SM:AP 3 
SM:AP 4 
SM:AP 5

			*	*	*

Thread 40

Posted: 22 Mar 2007 07:56 pm    Post subject: Spider-Man: Web of Doom 1-3
By JLH

If it involves the Beetle, it must be the Gap! 

------------------------------------ 
SPIDER-MAN: WEB OF DOOM #1 [Aug 1994] 
Writer: Jack C. Harris 
Penciler: Scott Kolins 
Inker: Sam DeLaRosa 
"Web of Doom, Part 1" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER (also in FB) 
WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE (also in FB) 
JAMESON, J. JONAH 
ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE" 
BEETLE/ABNER RONALD JENKINS (in shadow) 

Other characters: 
Burns, Terry (dies) 
Cops (With such names as Jimmy, Davy, Sam, and Paul) 
Crooks (with such names as Recco) 
Michael (camerman on the Amazon Annie movie) 
Sarah (MJ's stunt double) 


Summary: Spider-Man beats up some crooks, then webs them up, right before cops arrive. He's frustrated over Mary Jane's recent departure. He overhears a nearby scuffle between a union on strike against the Brandywine Pharmaceutical Company, and picks up one of the most agitated of the bunch, a guy named Terry Burns. Upon learning what it's about, Spidey lets the man go, though the crowd doesn't think too highly of him for even getting involved. So, Spidey then overhears a police band radio, stops a shotgun robbery at a deli, and presses on, soon discovering a thief slipping out of the Brandywine company's window. It turns out to be Terry again, having ditched the union and gone stealing some chemicals on his own. Sick of hearing the dope badmouth him, Spidey webs up Terry's mouth, and his body, against the wall on the fire escape, informs one of the guards of the thief's location, and departs. But the guard is soon hit on the head by a shadowed man with a pipe. So, back at home, Peter spends an entire week doing laundry and cleaning up his wife-less home. Yes, he didn't even go out and save lives, he spent the entire week cleaning, not even having time to watch TV or anything. Anyway, he reads the latest Daily Bugle, and discovers Spider-Man is wanted by the police again! This time, it turns out Terry Burns was found dead, within the hardened webbing of Spidey, and the guard ended up in a coma. The fact a whole crowd saw Terry targeted by Spidey earlier doesn't help matters. Peter finds it impossible his one-hour-disintegrating webbing could remain around for so long, and sets out to the Bugle to get more facts. Once there, he learns from Jonah's tirade to Robbie that the police have surveillance footage proving Spidey killed him. Peter prepares to burn his Spider-Man costume, thinking he did it, but he reconsiders and costumes-up once more to find the truth. Of course, when he stops a mugging using his webbing, the mugger freaks out about suffocating, and even the cops start shooting at him for it. Peter tried to get a hold of Mary Jane, but calling Bolamoria is nearly impossible. We see her filming "Amazon Annie vs the Zombies" in the jungle, completely ignorant to her husband's legal woes. So, Spidey sets out to inspect the scene of the crime, now vowing to not use his webbing again until he can prove it's safe. There's no webbing left at the crime scene, so he instead checks out his own webbing batch. Scientific inspection by Peter finds nothing wrong with it, but like a moron he still believes he's responsible for Terry's death. 


Flashback: Peter is kissed goodbye by Mary Jane, who is off to take part in the filming of a movie in the jungles of Bolamoria for six weeks. It's the "best acting job I've snared in months", according to MJ. 


Continuity notes: "This story takes place before Amazing Spider-Man #388." He's a lot happier in this tale than he was in the books published at this time, and there's no mention of clones, so the note seems right. 


Calendar notes: We see a Daily Bugle dated "Saturday, June 18th, 1994". 

Goofs: The news goes from claiming Terry suffocated, to "starved to death". Yes, despite the fact he was webbed up for a week AT MOST, he "starved". Also, Spidey immediately rationalizes to himself that the guard in the coma as an unrelated mugging. But despite no evidence to prove this, NO ONE mentions the guard again. Everyone's merely after him because he made it so Terry couldn't eat for a few days. Jesus H Christmas, how can people say the CLONE saga was bad when this is what they were publishing right before it?! 

Also, the dialogue claims Terry was webbed up on the night of the "21st". Yet it's a June 18th paper that first reads about his death. 


------------------------------------ 
SPIDER-MAN: WEB OF DOOM #2 [Sep 1994] 
Writer: Jack C. Harris 
Penciler: Anthony Williams 
Inker: Sam DeLarosa 
"Web of Doom! Part II: Hunt the Spider!" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 
GRACE, LT. SYLVIA (head of EET:BB) 
JAMESON, J. JONAH 
ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE" 
BEETLE/ABNER RONALD JENKINS 

Other characters: 
Lotano, Officer (gets the chief his coffee) 
Precinct Chief (calls the EET:BB) 
Extreme Emergency Team: Beta Brigade (members include Munch, Adams, Felming, Motta, Stewart, and their leader, whom I list on her own since she's the only one to appear in both issues and gets the most focus) 
Disanto, Andrew (tv news reporter) 
Jeff (his camerman) 
Latorre, Mr. (observer assigned by the Mayor's office to EET:BB) 
Cops (with names such as Podowski, Sharon, Paul, Sammy) 
Santos, Mr (Bolamoria local) 

Summary: Mary Jane continues filming her the b-movie in the jungle, thinking about Peter the whole time. Back in New York, Spider-Man leaps through the city, refusing to use even the slightest bit of webbing. With Spidey still around, the cops have to finally contact Code Blue... I mean, Extreme Emergency Team: Beta Brigade! Yes, a super special task force of cops the NYPD never used before and never will again. But it's regular cops who're taking potshots at the leaping Spidey, not to mention random civilians shouting at him as he passes by their windows. Even TV news is getting in on getting the public's negative opinions on our hero. Spidey punches a brick wall in frustration, and accidentally peeps on a girl changing in an open window. Oh, isn't this so very well written? So, the EET:BB gets all prepared, and appear to have some high technology at their disposal, yet they don't really use it for much and actually just appear to be SWAT team members with a fancy unit name. So, finally after eons, Spidey realizes the footage showed Terry as being on a different fire escape than the one he webbed him up to (not to mention the one he WAS on had no cameras), meaning someone moved him. So, Spidey is targeted by the EET:BB, who shoot and throw explosives at him, and despite his realizing the webbing isn't evil, he still just leaps around like he's Ricochet already. Spidey saves a bag lady from getting hit by a car (said woman thinking him Daredevil), and ends up caught in a net by the EET:BB. Jonah is thrilled by this news, and wants Peter Parker to take pictures of him at the courthouse. Down in Bolamoria, MJ finally gets a Daily Bugle, weeks late, by donkey mail. The news about Terry Burns being "killed" by Spidey sends her into a panic, but her only chance of getting back to the states, the donkey mail, won't be back for 2 or 3 weeks! And meanwhile, in New York, the armored Beetle clutches a newspaper and realizes his plan is working. 


Goofs: The title of MJ's movie is now "Amazon Annie and the Grunge Zombies". 


------------------------------------ 
SPIDER-MAN: WEB OF DOOM #3 [Oct 1994] 
Story: Jack C. Harris 
Penciler: Anthony Williams 
Inker: Sam De La Rosa 
"Web of Doom Part III: Beetlemania!" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
BEETLE/ABNER RONALD JENKINS (also in FB) 
JAMESON, J. JONAH 
GRACE, LT. SYLVIA 
WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 

Other characters: 
Disanto, Andrew 
Jeff 
Precinct Chief 
Burns, Terry (FB only) 

Summary: So, the news of Spidey being captured and held at Rikers Island reaches the Beetle, who is pleased he's defeated Spidey without him ever knowing he was behind it. After a very brief bit of legal manuevering, Spidey loses his right to keep his mask on. But before he can be demasked in front of a bunch of reporters, Jonah gets into an argument with his replacement photographer, and it provides a distraction long enough for Spider-Man to escape! After a swim to LaGuardia, then a ride atop a hotel shuttle, Spidey figures the surveillance video footage is the key to his innocence. He tracks down report Andrew Disanto, threatens to drop him off the side of a building unless he reveals who gave him a copy of the footage. It was a guy calling himself "Jake N. Binners", who lives at the George Stacy Memorial Halfway House. Yes, it's an anagram for Abner Jenkins. The reporter quickly goes on live to talk about Spidey's harrassment of him, which alerts the Beetle to his close proximity. So, Beetle armors up and strikes at Spidey before he can get the drop on him. They battle, with Beetle revealing he had a legitimate job at Brandywine, and had Terry steal drugs from the place so he could sell to raise funds to make up a new group of criminals, all ordinary guys this time. He reveals how he framed Spidey, and even uses his "fake webbing gun" on the Web-Slinger. Spider-Man, aware he's got to bring the villain down even if it costs him his life, does so at last, busting the gun and gumming up Beetle's armor. They crash into the police station, just as he chief of security at Brandywine appears with the backup surveillance footage, which was the unedited version showing Beetle setting up Terry's corpse. Beetle is handcuffed, and informed Terry's autopsy came in, showing he died of a heart attack brought on by swallowing the stolen drugs! Jonah's especially angry, though none of the NYPD are listening to his complaints. Spidey's free to go, especially with the fake webbing sample of Beetle's. Now using his webbing again, Spidey eagerly awaits MJ's return. A quick time passage later, she comes home, they kiss, and everything's happy. 


Flashback: Beetle watching at Spidey webs up Burns. Beetle, after slugging the guard, grabbing Terry after the webbing dissolved, and demanding from him the drugs he stole. Getting another plan while questioning him, Beetle took some of the webbing residue, analyzed and duplicated it. But before he could use it for anything, Burns died of a heart attack! So Beetle used the phony webbing to web up Terry's body, took the surveillance tape, and set up Spidey. 

Continuity notes: This story takes place before Amazing Spidey #388. 

A footnote, attached to a comment about Beetle being tired of being humilated by Spidey, refers to "As in the Lethal Foes of Spidey LS." 


Goofs: Why is Beetle sitting in his full armor watching TV? Even his helmet isn't off! 

When the same thing happens in Peter Parker: Spider-Man #81 or so, a small time crook is found smothered in non-dissolved webbing, there's not the slightest reference to this mini. Not that it really matters, but it just goes to show how easy it is to frame Spidey. 


------------------------------------ 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
... 
WOSM 111 
**SM:WOD 1-FB 
ASM 387 
**SM:WOD 1 
**SM:WOD 2 
**SM:WOD 3 
PPTSS 209 
PPTSS 210 
**SM:WOD 3 
S-M 44 
... 

BEETLE/ABNER RONALD JENKINS 
... 
SSWP 22 
**SM:WOD 1 
**SM:WOD 3-FB 
**SM:WOD 2 
**SM:WOD 3 
[SM Power of Terror] 
ASMU 9 
... 

JAMESON, J. JONAH 
... 
WOSM 110 
**SM:WOD 1 
**SM:WOD 2 
**SM:WOD 3 
PPTSS 209 
... 

ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE" 
... 
WOSM 110 
**SM:WOD 1 
**SM:WOD 2 
PPTSS 209 
... 

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 
... 
WOSM 111 
**SM:WOD 1-FB 
**SM:WOD 1 
**SM:WOD 2 
**SM:WOD 3 
S-M 44 
... 

**GRACE, LT. SYLVIA 
SM:WOD 2 
SM:WOD 3

			*	*	*

Thread 41

Posted: 20 Aug 2006 01:38 am    Post subject: Fury: Peacemaker
By Col_Fury

Fury: Peacemaker #1 
Kasserine Pass 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Derick Robertson 
Published: April, 2006 

Appearances: 
Sergeant Nick Fury, Generalleutnant Stephen Barkhorn, Hans Von Stehle lots of German & American soldiers. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4: Sidi Bou Zid, Tunisia 
German forces attack surprised US troops, and Fury threatens his Lt. to show some leadership. 
Pg5-FB: earlier that day 
Sgt. Fury & his Lt. approach the camp. 
Pg6-pg7: Sidi Bou Zid, Tunisia 
Fury regroups with some trapped troops. 
Pg8-FB: earlier that day 
US troops are introduced to the bazooka. 
Pg9: Sidi Bou Zid, Tunisia 
Fury has a man fire the bazooka; he misses, and is torn apart by enemy fire. 
Pg10-FB: earlier that day 
US troops are introduced to the Sherman tank. 
Pg11-pg12: Sidi Bou Zid, Tunisia 
Tank reinforcements arrive, and are decimated by German Tigers. 
Pg13-FB: earlier that day 
US troops are introduced to aeroplane reinforcements. 
Pg14-pg22: Sidi Bou Zid, Tunisia 
American air reinforcements never arrive, but German Stukas do and cut off escape routes, and slaughter the remaining US troops. Fury crawls out of the rubble at dusk, and encounters Barkhorn who finds it amusing that someone survived. He gives Fury a canteen of water, gives him some advice, and wishes him good luck. 

References: 
As revealed later, this issue takes place before Nick forms the Howling Commandoes. Whats unfortunate is that this takes place in February 1943, at the Kasserine Pass. Very good real-world research, but the Howlers were running around in 1942. Oh well. 

Fury: Peacemaker #2 
the War Without the Army 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Derick Robertson 
Published: May, 2006 

Appearances: 
Sergeant Nick Fury, Peter Kynaston, Billy Yeoman, Hardy, Crosby, Corporal Hedigan. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg17: Tunisia 
Fury, dehydrated and wandering through the desert, stumbles across some camped German troops. They start to beat him and hes rescued by Peter Kynaston & his group. That night, Fury joins them in a raid on a German supply convoy. Afterwards, Peter explains to Fury that his groups orders are simply to drive around behind enemy lines and cause as much damage as possible. 
Pg18-pg22: after midnight 
A group of German tanks runs out of gas, so Peter gives Fury an opportunity to ambush them, which he enjoys. 

References: 
This issue occurs four or five days after the last one. 

Fury: Peacemaker #3 
Weapon of Choice 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Derick Robertson 
Published: June, 2006 

Appearances: 
Sergeant Nick Fury, Captain Peter Kynaston, Sergeant Billy Yeoman, Major McNeal, Obersleutenant Hans Von Stehle. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg18: London 
Fury reports to a briefing along with Kynaston where they receive orders to assassinate Barkhorn, the mission is codenamed Operation: Peacemaker. They reminisce at a pub, and that night are airdropped into Germany where all but five of them are killed. 
Pg19-pg22: after midnight, Germany 
The group infiltrates Barkhorns headquarters, but finds Obersleutenant Hans Von Stehle instead who informs then that Barkhorn is on his way to Berlin to assassinate Hitler. 

References: 
October, 1944. Again, great real-world research, but it doesnt quite line up with the Howlers time line. Oh well. 

As revealed here, all of the Howling Commandoes adventures occur after issue 2, and what will become apparent later, all of the Howling Commandoes adventures occur before issue 3, making this series a nice little book end. 

Fury: Peacemaker #4 
Final Solution 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Derick Robertson 
Published: July, 2006 

Appearances: 
Sergeant Nick Fury, Captain Peter Kynaston, Sergeant Billy Yeoman, Schuster, Feskin, Obersleutenant Hans Von Stehle, Stephen Barkhorn-FB. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg13pn1: picking up directly from last issue 
The group overtakes the rest of the house, and Von Stehle tells them how Barkhorn got involved in the plot to assassinate Hitler. 
Pg13pn2(of 4)-pg15pn4-FB: (Oct/Nov 43) Russia 
Von Stehle & Barkhorn meet in an inn and discuss retreat against orders. Theyre approached by a Corporal of the S.S. 
Pg15pn5(of 5), pg16pn4(of 5): Germany, same night 
Von Stehle continues his story 
Pg16pn1-pg16pn3, pg16pn5-pg20pn2-FB: same night 
The Corporal takes them to an extermination site, and Barkhorn in disgust almost kills the Corporal. 
Pg20pn3-pg20pn4(of 5): Germany, same night 
Von Stehle continues his story, and reveals that Barkhorn was promoted to Fieldmarchall shortly after the previous FlashBack. 
Pg20pn5-pg21pn1-FB: several months later(April 44) 
Barkhorn & Von Stehle talk about how great it would be if Hitler were dead. 
Pg21pn2(of 5)-pg22: Germany, same night 
Von Stehle finishes his story. 

References: 
Waning crescent moon. 

Fury: Peacemaker #5 
Beasts 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Derick Robertson 
Published: August, 2006 

Appearances: 
Sergeant Nick Fury, Captain Peter Kynaston, Sergeant Billy Yeoman, Schuster, Feskin, Obersleutenant Hans Von Stehle, Fieldmarchall Stephen Barkhorn. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: same day as last issue 
The house is approached by a Tiger tank, and the crew is killed. Reinforcements arrive and the house is attacked. Most are killed, and that night more arrive, along with Barkhorn. 

References: 
Waning crescent moon. 

Fury: Peacemaker #6 
the End of the Beginning 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Derick Robertson 
Published: September, 2006 

Appearances: 
Sergeant Nick Fury, Captain Peter Kynaston, Sergeant Billy Yeoman, Schuster, Feskin, Obersleutenant Hans Von Stehle, Fieldmarchall Stephen Barkhorn. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg17: same night as last issue 
Fury and the others regroup, and Fury meets with Barkhorn, who reveals that he turned down participation in the Hitler assassination. The attack resumes, Yeoman, Schuster, and Feskin are killed. Fury & Von Stehle shoot each other. Von Stehle dies, Fury loses his left eye. 
Pg18: 7 May, 1945 outside Cologne 
Fury wakes up in a hospital, his face is bandaged. 
Pg19-pg22: 8 May, 1945 
Peter catches Fury(whos now wearing an eye-patch) up on what he missed while in a coma on Victory in Europe Day. 

References: 
According to this, Fury missed the last six months of the War in Europe. As alluded to above, we may have to ignore those dates. Story-wise, this must take place after Furys adventures with the Howlers, because this is his last mission before being hospitalized. 

 

For those interested in the strange, convoluted story of Furys eye-patch: 

Nick first appeared in the Modern Marvel Universe in FF 21, sans eye-patch. He then popped up in Strange Tales 135 wearing an eye-patch. Fans wanted to know where the eye-patch came from, so they did a story in Sgt. Fury 27 showing a grenade go off in his face. A doctor informed him that his eye could be saved, but hed be out of commission for a year. Not wanting to be out of action for that long, Nick decided to let the eye rot in his head. He would slowly lose vision over the years, and would eventually be blind in that eye. The assumption was he finally went blind between appearances in FF 21 & ST 135. 

This was a nice origin for the eye-patch, tying the loss of his eye to WWII. The Fury one-shot added in a bit where his brother shot him in the eye between FF 21 & ST 135, and Nick comments that his eye is gone for good. 

Marvel: the Lost Generation has a Fury appearance, and it was revealed that he had a bionic implant-eye in the sixties. This re-tied the eye-patch origin to WWII, but would mean that Jake shot out Furys bionic eye in the one-shot. The gone for good comment would mean that Nick didnt want a bionic replacement, I guess. 

And now we have Fury getting himself shot in the face, his eye hanging out of his head, during WWII, cementing the origin of the eye-patch. The problem now is, Fury was in Korea without an eye-patch in SGTF@ 1, along with many other appearances. 

Almost directly after the bomb was dropped in Japan, Fury started working for O.S.S.,(as revealed in Spotlight 31 & Agent of SHIELD 38-FB) some of his assignments were tactical attacks, others were spy-work. It stands to reason that a man with one eye would be easily identifiable, and wouldnt be much use as a spy. My current impression is that Nick had a glass eye instead of wearing an eye-patch for a while, and eventually received a bionic implant.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Aug 2006 07:37 am    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Col. I like your theory about the history of Nick's eye. Good work. 
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Aug 2006 09:32 pm    
By Col_Fury

Thanks! 

This was an enjoyable series, continuity niggles aside. I would really like to see more 'period piece' Fury minis, maybe one set in Korea, another in Vietnam, maybe some doing spy things in the sixties, etc. 

But that would depend on how well this one sold. Does anyone know? 

-edit- 

After some quick searching, I answered my own question at this place: 

Fury: Peacemaker 1: 27,423 
Fury: Peacemaker 2: 21,612 
Fury: Peacemaker 3: 19,177 
Fury: Peacemaker 4: 18,379 
Fury: Peacemaker 5: 16,981 
Fury: Peacemaker 6: 16,581 

Doesn't look too promising, does it?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Aug 2006 07:25 am    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
This was an enjoyable series, continuity niggles aside. I would really like to see more 'period piece' Fury minis, maybe one set in Korea, another in Vietnam, maybe some doing spy things in the sixties, etc. 
<<<


I'd certainly enjoy seeing Ennis and Robertson on another "Fury" miniseries! As for it not selling well, I think that's understandable: Did this miniseries really need a cardstock cover, making each issue $3.50 a piece?!? I thought they only gave cardstock covers to "universe shattering crossover/miniseries!!!" type of books...
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Aug 2006 11:58 pm  
By Col_Fury

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
As for it not selling well, I think that's understandable: Did this miniseries really need a cardstock cover, making each issue $3.50 a piece?!? 
<<<

I think they gave it the special cardstock treatment because it was one of the first minis out of the 'new' Marvel Knights. Hey, it works for the Ultimate titles, right? 

Maybe if the trade sells well...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 18 Feb 2007 10:57 pm    
By Col_Fury

Currently, Nicks chronology looks like this: 

FURY, SGT. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
ST 159-FB 
SGTF 7 (16:4 - 16:5)-FB 
SGTF 34 (5:2)-FB-FB 
SGTF 7 (11:1 - 11:3)-FB 
MARVELS 1 
SGTF 34 (3:3 - 17:7)-FB 
SGTF 34 (18:2 - 19:9)-FB 
SGTF 44-FB 
{SGTF 1} 
... 

SGTF 34 (3:3 - 17:7)-FB shows Nick & Red training British soldiers how to parachute, labeled as May 1940 in the comic. At this time, Nick is of the mindset that he doesnt need to be involved in the war, hes happy doing what hes doing. 

MARVELS 1 shows Phil Sheldon interviewing Nick on his thoughts of Captain America. At this time, Nick is starting to think that Cap has the right idea, even if his country isnt involved in the war, and maybe there should be more people like him 

SGTF 62 shows Nick in basic training, having already signed up for military service. 

SGTF 34 (18:2 - 19:9)-FB shows Nick as a Sgt. at Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941. 

Ill suggest moving MARVELS 1 to between these two SGTF 34-FBs because it follows Nicks change of opinion from no interest in military service to signing up. Also, Captain America wasnt active until 1941, and the first portion of the FB takes place in 1940. 

I realize the Boss hasnt gotten to SGTF 62 yet, so Ill put brackets around it. 

Fury: Peacemaker 1 & 2 shows Sgt. Furys first mission, so it has to follow his basic training. Also, it has to be before SGTF 34 (18:2 - 19:9)-FB because shortly after that, Capt. Sawyer forms his First Attack Squad, led by Fury. As mentioned earlier, the February 1943 date given in Peacemaker #1 must be ignored, other comics wont allow it. Ive placed it in November 1941, for anyone that cares. Its still in Africa 

A suggestion: 

FURY, SGT. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
ST 159-FB 
SGTF 7 (16:4 - 16:5)-FB 
SGTF 34 (5:2)-FB-FB 
SGTF 7 (11:1 - 11:3)-FB 
SGTF 34 (3:3 - 17:7)-FB (05/40) 
**MARVELS 1 
[SGTF 62] 
*FURY: PM 1-FB pg5 
*FURY: PM 1-FB pg8 
*FURY: PM 1-FB pg10 
*FURY: PM 1-FB pg13 
*FURY: PM 1 
*FURY: PM 2 
SGTF 34 (18:2 - 19:9)-FB (12/41) 
SGTF 44-FB 
{SGTF 1} 
 

As for the other four issues of Peacemaker Im not that far yet.  


FURY 1 has a FlashBack that immediately follows SGTF 29. In it, Fury returns from his battle with Baron Strucker in Cherbeaux France, and gets debriefed by Rick Stoner, then is thrown in the brig. A newspaper shows that he was then pardoned by the President.(FDR) This is currently missing from Furys, Capt. Sawyers and FDRs chronologies. So: 

FURY, SGT. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
 
SGTF 29 
*FURY 1-FB pg6pn3-pg8 
 

SAWYER, CAPTAIN SAMUEL 
 
SGTF 29 
*FURY 1-FB 
 

ROOSEVELT, FRANKLIN DELANO 
 
GSINV 2 (06/19/42) 
*FURY 1-FB-BTS 
CA 01 (08/42) 
 

Also, an update for the Red Skull: 

RED SKULL II/JOHANN SCHMIDT 
 
INV 5 
INV 6 
M/PRM 30 
*SGTF 25 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 16 
YOUNG ALLIES 4 
CA5 5-FB (11/42) 
CABT 
 

An update on some Germans: 

HITLER, ADOLF 
 
INV 21 
SGTF 14 
INV 32 
INV 33 
DRSTR2 51 
SGTF 28 
SGTF 29 
GSINV 2-BTS (06/19/42) 
TRUTH 6-FB 
SGTF 32 
SGTF 34-BTS 
SGTF 35 
SGTF 41 
CABT 
SGTF 48 
SGTF@ 2 (06/06/44) 
 

BRAUN, EVA 
SGTF@ 2 
SAGAHT 3 
WI? 4 

GOEBBELS, JOSEF 
SAGASM 5 
SGTF 28 
SGTF 29 
TRUTH 6-FB 
SGTF 35 

GOERING, HERMANN 
HUMAN TORCH 3/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 2/2 
SGTF 27 
SGTF 28 

Also, this seems as good a place as any to suggest some moves based on how various books line up with each other, as I see it. The following suggestions can work just as well as I have them or the way theyre already listed, but I thought Id throw them out anyway: 

CHURCHILL, SIR WINSTON 
N 52-FB-BTS (01/18/15) 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 3 
HUMAN TORCH 5B 
INH2 10-FB (11/14/40) 
{GSINV 1} 
INV 3-FB 
INV 3-BTS 
**SGTF 44-FB-VO 
INV 4 
INV 30 
GSINV 2 (06/19/42) 
SGTF 41 
WI? 4 

FURY, SGT. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
... 
SGTF 17 
**INV 35 
DRSTR2 50 
DRSTR2 51 
M/HOL 1994 JAN/2 (4:5-4:7)-FB 
SGTF 18 
 

DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM" 
... 
SGTF 17 
**INV 35 
DRSTR2 50 
DRSTR2 51 
M/HOL 1994 JAN/2 (4:5-4:7)-FB 
SGTF 18 
 

RALSTON, ROBERT "REB" 
 
SGTF 17 
**INV 35 
DRSTR2 50 
DRSTR2 51 
SGTF 18 
 

JONES, GABRIEL "GABE" 
 
SGTF 17 
**INV 35 
DRSTR2 51 
M/HOL 1994 JAN/2-FB 
SGTF 18 
 

SAWYER, CAPTAIN SAMUEL 
 
SGTF 18 
**INV 40 
SGTF 19 

_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2007 01:39 am    
By Col_Fury

Marvel Spotlight 31 shows the origin of the Infinity Formula. 

Nick Fury 30 has a FlashBack that recaps Marvel Spotlight 31 with one new panel of information. 

Nick Fury 38 shows what Nick was up to shortly after WWII, including his recruitment into the OSS. 

Sgt. Fury Annual 1 shows the Howlers during the Korean War. 

A breakdown: 

M/SPT 31-FB pg3pn2-pg3pn3: 
Fury injured, brought to Sternberg 
M/SPT 31-FB pg3pn4-pg3pn5: 
Fury operated on by Sternberg. 
NF3 30-FB: 
Sternberg checks Fury's vitals. 
M/SPT 31-FB pg3pn6: 
Fury goes back out, one week later. 
NF3 38-FB 
Shortly after Japan surrenders, Fury is recruited into OSS. 
M/SPT 31-FB pg3pn7-pg4pn4: 
6 months after WWII ends, Fury already working w/ OSS(therefore after NF3 38-FB), ages rapidly, one year after surgery. 

So: 

6 months after the war ended, Fury begins taking annual inoculations. That would be March 1946. One year before that would be March 1945. 

Currently, M/SPT 31-FB isnt listed. NF3 30-FB is listed after Korea, that cant work according to M/SPT 31. Also, NF3 38-FB is listed after Korea, that also cant work, according to M/SPT 31. 

Some suggestions: 

FURY, SGT. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
 
SGTF 108 (02/45) 
*M/SPT 31 (3:2-3:5)-FB (03/45) 
**NF3 30-FB 
*M/SPT 31 (3:6)-FB 
CA: SL2 12-FB 
**NF3 38-FB 
*M/SPT 31 (3:7-4:4)-FB (03/46) 
SGTF@ 1 (KOREA) 
 

STERNBERG, DR. BERTHOLD 
M/SPT 31-FB 
NF3 30-FB 
M/SPT 31 

The last four issues of Peacemaker show Furys last mission during the war in Europe. This has to occur after his missions with the Howling Commandos, because he wakes up after Germany has surrendered. So, a suggestion: 

FURY, SGT. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
 
SGTF 108 (02/45) 
M/SPT 31 (3:2-3:5)-FB (03/45) 
NF3 30-FB 
M/SPT 31 (3:6)-FB 
CA: SL2 12-FB 
*F: PM 3 
*F: PM 4 
*F: PM 5 
*F: PM 6 
NF3 38-FB 
M/SPT 31 (3:7-4:4)-FB (03/46) 
SGTF@ 1 (KOREA) 
 

Again, Peacemaker says that Fury missed the last 6 months of the war. Because Fury has adventures during that time,(Battle of the Bulge, Dresden, etc) I have Fury missing the last month of the war.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 42

Posted: 24 Mar 2007 03:13 am    Post subject: Spider-Man: The Power of Terror 1-4
By JLH

The Beetle Gap trilogy's stunning conclusion! 

------------------------------------ 
SPIDER-MAN: THE POWER OF TERROR #1 [January 1995] 
Writer: Gregory Wright 
Penciler: Darick Robertson 
Inker: Malcolm Jones III 
"The Power of Terror, Part 1 of 4: Beneficial Alliances" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
DEATHLOK III/MICHAEL COLLINS 
BEETLE/ABNER RONALD JENKINS 
SPEED DEMON/JAMES SANDERS 
HYDROMAN/MORRIE BENCH 
CICERO, CAESAR "BIG C" 
SILVERMANE/SILVIO MANFREDI 
SCORPIA/ELAINE COLL (BTS) 
WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 

Other characters: 
Various Maggia guys (some die) 


Summary: One night while swinging around, intending on getting some quality time with his wife, Spider-Man spots a bunch of Maggia guys about to pull a massacre on other mobsters in a restaurant. He gets involved, trying to save some lives, but doesn't do all that well of a job. Spidey vows to stop this gang war, since he's bringing a child into the world, and wants it improved. Elsewhere, Coney Island actually, Deathlok is in the middle of being attacked by Beetle, Speed Demon, and Hydroman! They've targeted him for some reason, and he fights back as best he can, while refusing yet again to let his internal computer relax his "no killing" parameter. Eventually, Hydroman leads him into the subway, where he threatens to drown some people. Deathlok, despite being aware of his being intentionally led into trap, presses on anyway. Elsewhere still, upstate New York, head of the Maggia, Caesar "Big C" Cicero, has gotten the message sent by the massacre of his men, leading him to the estate of Silvermane. The cybernetic geriatric criminal mastermind had his own Maggia faction attack Big C's so they could form an allegiance. Though Silvermane isn't after the entirety of the Maggia, he's got bigger goals. Goals which involve making up for the "Las Vegas" incident that has made him into a joke. Silvermane has allied even with all of the Hell's Kitchen Mob, by having his lab guys make a new Scorpion suit for one of them. But his plans are even bigger than merely organizing organized crime factions under his command, as you'll see, muauhahahahaha! The next morning, Peter Parker has a heart to heart with Mary Jane over his concerns about the state of the city. Despite his duties as a soon-to-be-father, he feels a higher sense of responsibility to put a stop to this gang war. She worries, but is supportive. So, Big C and Silvermane's first master scheme involves planting explosives all over NYC, on all the bridges and tunnels. The first target for destruction is the Holland Tunnel, a fake accident created so the distraction can cause a bomb to take everyone by surprise. 


Continuity notes: "This series takes place before Amazing Spider-Man #399." Of course, said issue is tied directly to WOS 122, and should be before THAT, but you get the drift. 

Mary Jane is pregnant, putting it after she revealed she was knocked up by Peter. That's the thing about some tales, they tell you what it's before, but not what it's AFTER. 

It's mentioned Mac Gargan is "reformed" and no longer Scorpion, fitting in with his status of this period as previously established. 


Goofs: The narrative claims the Clone was "lost" in a "rigged explosion", referring to PPTSS 217's ending where Peter thinks Ben is dead. But in issue 2, Peter freaks out when he thinks he might die and end up allowing his "recently returned" clone (even calling him Ben Reilly) to take his place with MJ. 


------------------------------------ 
SPIDER-MAN: THE POWER OF TERROR #2 [Feb 1995] 
Writer: Gregory Wright 
Penciler: Darick Robertson 
Inkers: Malcolm Jones III, Al Milgrom & Randy Emberlin 
"The Power of Terror, Part 2 of Four: Warzone" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 
CICERO, CAESAR "BIG C" 
SCORPIA/ELAINE COLL 
SILVERMANE/SILVIO MANFREDI 
DEATHLOK III/MICHAEL COLLINS 
HYDROMAN/MORRIE BENCH 
DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK/"JACK BATLIN" 
PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE" 
BEETLE/ABNER RONALD JENKINS 


Other characters: 
Various Hell's Kitchen Mob members 
Some Maggia 
Flannagan, Joe (head of HKM faction; dies) 
Fagan, Detective 
Giraldi, Bruno (gangster. Dead) 


Summary: Spidey spots the Maggia, along with Boomerang, attacking a faction of the Hell's Kitche Mob that hasn't yet alligned with Silvermane. He takes down the costumed villain, but is unable to keep Big C from killing the faction's leader, a guy named Joe Flannagan. Spidey discovers too late that Boomerang was just to keep him busy while the real target was taken care of. Up at Silvermane's, Hell's Kitchen Mob gal Elaine Coll is given the new Scorpion suit, and takes on the name of Scorpia. She's sent off to join the other supervillains under Silvermane's employment. Speaking of which, Deathlok scours the subway, notices a train about to hit a parked one, saves the day with some physical exertion. But in doing so, he's left unconscious, and at the mercy of Hydroman. Back above, Spidey returns to the scene of the latest mob massacre, and gets read the riot act by a Detective who used to know that Flannagan guy. The gang war rages onward, even in Alphabet City, where Daredevil, continuing the ruse of his new "gruff" persona, gets overworked in stopping mobsters from killing other mobsters. Not far away, in the Bronx, the Punisher's two weeks worth of tracking some number runners leads him to the scene of a Maggia vs Maggia scene, which puts Silvermane on the top of his "to kill" list. So, back in the subway, Deathlok recovers and checks on the people in the subway car he saved. Unaware of the bigger picture, he sets out to find it by tapping into a nearby telephone line and accessing the NYPD database. While he's distracted with that, Hydroman and his backup, Scorpia, use the opportunity to strike him unawares. In need of more support, Beetle is called in, and Spider-Man follows. So, it's Deathlok and Spidey vs Scorpia, Hydroman, and Beetle, in the subway tunnels under New York City. The good guys are doing a good enough job of beating the bad ones, until the battle ends up in Times Square. There, Silvermane takes over the jumbo video screen, and makes an ultimatum: Deathlok gives him his body, or else he'll activate his explosives planted all over. Deathlok feels he has no choice and prepares to give up, but Spidey, aware of that what is done by the Ultimate Killing Machine would do under control of Silvermane will be just as bad as worse as what's threatened, refuses to let him do it. 


Continuity notes: Scorpia's Grandfather, Vincent Coll, is mentioned as being a big time gangster fellow. I've no evidence of his ever appearing anywhere, though. 

Daredevil is in his black and red armor of the period. He still thinks of his tougher revised persona as "new", but mentions it's been "months" since he buried his old persona. 

Spidey mentions that he KNOWS Beetle was behind bars, lending support to the fact this is Beetle's first appearance since Web of Doom 3. 

All you completionists of things like "all manner of character appearances no matter if it's stupid or not", dummies made up to look like Daredevil (old red costume), Spidey, Wolverine (yellow costume), and Captain America appear briefly before being destroyed. 


------------------------------------ 
SPIDER-MAN: THE POWER OF TERROR #3 [Mar 1995] 
Writer: Gregory Wright 
Penciler: Darick Robertson 
Inkers: Malcolm Jones III & Lee Sullivan 
"The Power of Terror, Part 3 of Four: Division of Power" 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
DEATHLOK III/MICHAEL COLLINS 
SCORPIA/ELAINE COLL 
BEETLE/ABNER RONALD JENKINS 
HYDROMAN/MORRIE BENCH 
SILVERMANE/SILVIO MANFREDI 
PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE" 
HERCULES 
CRYSTAL 
THUNDERSTRIKE/ERIC KEVIN MASTERSON 
VISION II 
BLACK WIDOW II/NATASHA ROMANOVA 
DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK/"JACK BATLIN" 
CICERO, CAESAR "BIG C" 
MAINFRAME/IAN WAJLER 

Other characters: 
Random reporter lady 
Various mobsters 


Summary: Did I mention Silvermane has control of citywide database systems, also? Yeah, well, Deathlok and Spidey scuffle in Times Square. They do so for so long that Silvermane gets impatient and sets off the Holland Tunnel bomb, sending the Hudson River flooding in on the people who manage to survive the intital explosion. Notice, Dr Doom doesn't drop by to cry at the devestation. Anyway, Deathlok finally defeats Spidey, though he gets a Spider Tracer off onto him before he can depart with the Beetle, Hydroman, and Scorpia. Did I mention the crowd on the streets were cheering Spidey on to beat the dumb cyborg? No? Okay, then. So, Punisher hears the news of the Holland Tunnel explosion as he heads into the city. He'd be fine with the Maggia and Hell's Kitchen Mob killing each other, if not for the civilians caught in the crossfire. Silvermane is an old loose end he should have taken care of long ago, and he intends to rectify this by carving out his heart! Luckily, the Avengers have made the scene of the Holland Tunnel, and go about saving lives and making repairs. Spidey spots "the new" Daredevil, and once he informs him of the Deathlok situation, they agree to team-up. Up at Silvermane's estate, Deathlok is delivered, and we discover the villainous Mainframe will be the guy who transfers the mind of Silvermane into Deathlok's body. So, Spidey and DD (using a chopper whose pilot DD saved from a robbery a few weeks back) reach the estate, bend some bars, knock out some guards, and soon are attacked by Scorpia. Daredevil apparently knows her from her Hell's Kitchen past. So, she's vicious and crazy and sadistic, and overly sexual, and puts up a mean fight. Meanwhile, Michael Collins' consciousness works with the Deathlok computer to try to fight off the invasion that is Silvermane's mind. Mainframe mentions he's actually making a cyber copy of Silvermane's mind, the transference effect putting the 'original' Silvermane in a coma. Anyway! Silvermane takes over Deathlok's body. The Punisher arrives and does a lot of shooting. But Silvermane discovers it impossible to kill with the Deathlok body, and is ignorant of the reason why. Michael Collins, barely able to hang on, is helpless as Silvermane defeats Scorpia and leads DD and Spidey to believe he's the real Deathlok! 



Continuity notes: The Avengers are in their "brown coat" outfits of this pre-Crossing period. Vision is yellow/green. 

Punisher mentions he should have killed Silvermane when he had the chance, when he kidnapped Deathlok's son, referring to that one issue of the Deathlok book. 

Mention is made by Daredevil of his previous encounter with Spidey while in his new suit and persona, though that doesn't help placement much since this has to be after that anyway for the pregnancy thing. 

It's said an attempt was made to kidnap Deathlok's family, but they were "missing". 

Hey, person who needs to know even imaginary appearances! Spidey, Thing (non-face scar), Captain America, Cyclops (classic blue), Iron Man (classic red and yellow), and Wolverine (brown) appear in Silvermane's "I am Deathlok" fantasy panel. 

It's never explained why Beetle, Hydroman, and the rest of the villains take off so suddenly, but they do mention the first two as having "lit out". 


Goofs: Punisher says "back when he kidnaped(sic) Deathlok's son". The War Journal doesn't have spellcheck. 


------------------------------------ 
SPIDER-MAN: THE POWER OF TERROR #4 [April 1995] 
Writer: Gregory Wright 
Penciler: Darick Robertson 
Inkers: Greg Adams & Jimmy Palmiotti 
"The Power of Terror, Part 4 of Four: From the Inside Out" 

Cast: 
DEATHLOK III/MICHAEL COLLINS 
SILVERMANE/SILVIO MANFREDI 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK/"JACK BATLIN" 
SCORPIA/ELAINE COLL 
PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE" 
CICERO, CAESAR "BIG C" 
MAINFRAME/IAN WAJLER 
WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 

Other characters: 
Reporter guy on TV 
Tech guys, guards, and scientists are the Wesely Institute 

Summary: Don't worry, Spidey's Spider-Senses are going off, and Daredevil's sensory perception is also onto Deathlok's lies. They don't get far with the ruse on the ruse, Silvermane attacking the heroes the second he senses they're not falling for it. Needless to say, he wins, but is unable to kill either one of them! Just as the real Deathlok is worried about, Silvermane is becoming aware of the "no killing parameter", and is intending to be rid of it. Michael hatches a plan to be rid of Silvy instead. Meanwhile, Scorpia is as angry as a scorpion at Silvermane for the betrayal, and being unhinged as she is, prepares to enact some vengeance. She finds the unconscious Spidey and Daredevil, and decides to let them live in her plot to get back at Silvy. So, all those other bombs on the NYC bridges and stuff? Well, I forgot to mention that during Deathlok's internet experience an issue or so ago he managed to get hold of Silvermane's plans and locations of all the bombs, and the info was passed to the authorities. With those dangers taken care of, now the city faces Deathlok on a rampage! Punisher heads to the city to stop him, even if it means killing Michael Collins as a result. Spidey and DD are also returning to their hometown, with more or less the same intentions. But unlike Punny, Spidey's still got his tracer on Deathlok! Turns out, Silvermane as Deathlok, along with Big C, Mainframe, and some other Maggia guys, are now taking over a building called the Wesely Foundation, which is secretly a military intelligence safehouse and weapons research facility! Seems they've been using stolen A.I.M. technology to help build some robotic combat armor things. Silver-lok means to take over the facility and use all the weapons for his own personal army. He's got the physical power to do it now. Spidey and DD drop in just in time to stop him, with Scorpia having followed them as well. So, there's lots of fighting, within and without, as Michael Collins tries to hack the security system in Deathlok he himself designed, Scorpia struggles with Mainframe's mind control... oh, did I mention Silver-lok wants to set off a chain reaction within the facility's experimental plasma reactor to destroy New York City? So, forget that wanting the armor thing, this was his real goal. Oh, and Punisher appears and Spidey fights him to save Deathlok, who is having a crisis of identity. So, Spidey manages to beat down Punisher, Michael Collins finally wins out in the tug-of-digital-souls, wiping out Silvermane, Scorpia is saved from falling into the reactor by Deathlok, who then helps Spidey to stop the plasma thing from going explodey. Scorpia and Punisher slip out in the commotion, Silvermane's original body disappears, but Big C, Mainframe, and the related thugs are captured by Daredevil, just in time for the feds to show up and contain the situation. Soon, Deathlok and Spidey have a talk about how mean the world is, and how families are all that matter, and power and responsibility... and such. Deathlok bids goodbye, thanking him for not giving up on him. Shortly, Peter Parker returns home to MJ and their unborn child, happily in love and alive. 


Continuity notes: Hey you again! Character obsession man! Silver-lok's fantasy resumes again for a page, showing Thor (standard), Captain America, Spidey, and Thing (non-scarred). 


Goofs: The Punisher goes from upstate New York when last we saw him last issue, to down in New Jersey here. Why'd he leave Silvermane's estate so quickly just to go to another state?! 


------------------------------------ 

The keyword I'm using, SM:POT, should not be confused with that Spidey insert series from a few years ago, "Fast Lane". 

Not sure on the Avengers appearances as much, so partial caution on them. 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
... 
ASMU 8 
**SM:POT 1 
**SM:POT 2 
**SM:POT 3 
**SM:POT 4 
SM:LOE-FB 
... 

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 
... 
ASMU 8 
**SM:POT 1 
**SM:POT 4 
WOSM 122 
... 

DEATHLOK III/MICHAEL COLLINS 
... 
SECDEF 25 
**SM:POT 1 
**SM:POT 2 
**SM:POT 3 
**SM:POT 4 
[Beyond!] 

DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK/"JACK BATLIN" 
... 
DD 342 
**SM:POT 2 
**SM:POT 3 
**SM:POT 4 
DD 343 
... 

PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE" 
... 
PWJ 74 
**SM:POT 2 
**SM:POT 3 
**SM:POT 4 
PUN2 97 
... 


SPEED DEMON/JAMES SANDERS 
... 
CA 413 
**SM:POT 1 
TB '97-FB 
... 


HYDROMAN/MORRIE BENCH 
... 
ASMU 6 
**SM:POT 1 
**SM:POT 2 
**SM:POT 3 
AUP 4 
... 

BEETLE/ABNER RONALD JENKINS 
... 
[Spider-Man Web of Doom 1-3] 
**SM:POT 1 
**SM:POT 2 
**SM:POT 3 
ASMU 9 
... 

CICERO, CAESAR "BIG C" 
... 
PM&IF 101 
**SM:POT 1 
**SM:POT 2 
**SM:POT 3 
**SM:POT 4 
S-M 73 
... 

SILVERMANE/SILVIO MANFREDI 
... 
H2 404 
**SM:POT 1 
**SM:POT 2 
**SM:POT 3 
**SM:POT 4 
S-M 73 
... 

BOOMERANG/FRED MYERS 
... 
ASMU 7/3 
**SM:POT 2 
ASMU 12 
... 

SCORPIA/ELAINE COLL 
(added real name) 
**SM:POT 1-BTS 
**{SM:POT 2} 
**SM:POT 3 
**SM:POT 4 
ASMU 9 
... 

MAINFRAME/IAN WAJLER 
... 
DLOK2 19 
**SM:POT 3 
**SM:POT 4 


HERCULES [GREEK GOD] 
... 
FW 10/2 
**SM:POT 3 
A 384 
... 

CRYSTAL [INHUMAN] 
... 
V 4 
**SM:POT 3 
A/U 
... 

THUNDERSTRIKE/ERIC KEVIN MASTERSON 
... 
TS 20 
**SM:POT 3 
TS 21 
... 

VISION II 
... 
FW 10/2 
**SM:POT 3 
A/U 
... 


BLACK WIDOW II/NATASHA ROMANOVA 
... 
TS 20 
**SM:POT 3 
A/U 
...

			*	*	*

Thread 43

Posted: 22 Mar 2007 04:21 am    Post subject: Captain America/Nick Fury: the Otherworld War!
By Col_Fury

As the war against Hitlers Nazis raged on the Battlefields of Europe, another menace reared its head to threaten mankind. Only two men could prevent the devastation of the Earth: A living symbol of liberty and a dogfaced soldier from Hells Kitchen 

Captain America/Nick Fury: the Otherworld War! #1 
W: Peter Hogan 
D: Leonardo Manco 
Published: October, 2001 

Appearances: 
Captain America(Steve Rogers), Sgt. Nick Fury, Bucky(James Barnes), Dum Dum Dugan, Reb Ralston, Gabe Jones, Dino Manelli, Izzy Cohen, Pinky Pinkerton, Red Skull(Johann Schmidt), Dormammu, Orini, the Ancient One, Hamir, Clea, Baron Mordo-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg15: Western Germany, October, 1944 
Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos ambush a German guard detail waiting for a delivery. They watch as the Red Skull is given an artifact, and he begins to beat an old man to tell him how to use it. Captain America and Bucky arrive and attack the Skull, so the Howlers decide to join in. As the Red Skull attempts to escape, he vanishes in a vortex and Cap & Bucky are sucked in as well. 
Pg16-pg17: an otherworld 
Cap & Bucky chase the Red Skull. 
Pg18-pg20: Western Germany 
The Ancient One explains to Sgt. Fury that the Red Skull attacked him for the Eye of Agamotto, but hes been taken to Dormammus realm, who could overtake the Earth if he acquired the amulet. Fury and the Howlers decide to help Captain America get back and retrieve the amulet. 
Pg21-pg22: an otherworld 
Cap & Bucky retrieve the amulet from the Red Skull. 
Pg23-pg24: Western Germany 
The Ancient One sends the Howlers to Dormammus realm. . 
Pg-pg54: an otherworld 
Cap & Bucky escape the Skull and his Nazi soldiers, and the Skull is discovered by Dormammu, so the Skull strikes a deal with him: Skull will get the amulet from Captain America for Dormammu in exchange for his life. The Howlers appear and begin to look for Cap. Meanwhile, Cap & Bucky evade some Mindless Ones, but Bucky is injured, so Cap goes to look for help and supplies. Fury and the Howlers come across a village and befriend a woman named Clea, who guides them to where she heard noises, and they find Cap. Meanwhile, the Red Skull finds Bucky. Fury, Cap, and the Howlers make their way back to where Bucky was, and find a note from the Skull instead. The Ancient Ones astral form appears and they come up with a plan. They meet the Skull and trick him into letting Bucky go with a fake amulet and they escape, which doesnt please Dormammu, so he sends the Red Skull to face insanity. Afterwards, Clea begins to believe that not all strangers are evil as shes been taught. 
Pg55-pg64: Western Germany 
Cap, Bucky, Fury, and the Howlers return to Earth and return the amulet to the Ancient One. In return, he erases their memories of recent events after healing their wounds and repairing their clothes. Elsewhere, the Red Skull lands in a farm in Germany, pleased that hes returned intact. 

References: 
Noted as October, 1944, and Im happy to say that works just fine. 

The Ancient One notes that Mordo betrayed him to the Germans, giving him a BTS. Also, he mentions that he fears this is the first of many betrayals, if that helps. 

Sadly, I know next to nothing about the Dr. Strange portion of the cast Hamir was the Ancient One's aide, Orini was Dormammu's aide... That's all I got. Help? 

Some placement suggestions! 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
 
CA5 15-FB 
*CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
WX2 14-FB (1944) 
 

BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN BUCKY BARNES 
 
CA5 15-FB 
*CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 
 

RED SKULL II/JOHANN SCHMIDT 
 
CA5 15-FB 
*CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
FURY 1 
 

FURY, SGT. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
 
SGTF 119 (10/10/44) 
*CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
WX2 14-FB 
 

DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM" 
 
SGTF 119 (10/10/44) 
*CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
CA3 20/2-FB 
 

RALSTON, ROBERT "REB" 
 
SGTF 119 (10/10/44) 
*CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
CA3 20/2-FB-BTS 
 

MANELLI, DINO 
 
SGTF 119 (10/10/44) 
*CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
SGTF@ 4-FB (12/44) 
 

JONES, GABRIEL "GABE" 
 
SGTF 119 (10/10/44) 
*CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
CA3 20/2-FB 
 

COHEN, "IZZY" 
 
SGTF 119 (10/10/44) 
*CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
SGTF@ 4-FB (12/44) 
 

PINKERTON, PERCIVAL "PINKY" 
 
SGTF 119 (10/10/44) 
*CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
SGTF@ 4 (6-30)-FB (12/44) 
 

DORMAMMU 
... 
*CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
 

ANCIENT ONE, the 
 
*CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
 

CLEA 
 
*CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
 

HAMIR 
 
*CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
 

ORINI 
 
*CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
 

BARON MORDO/KARL MORDO 
... 
*CA/NF: OWW 1-BTS (10/44) 
 

So yeah any Dr. Strange fans want to take a crack at this?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Mar 2007 06:17 am    
By Enda80

Barnon Mordo and Dormammu's pre-Doctor Strange history was well covered in Doctor Strange III's Tales of the Vishanti back-ups. Those issues are available for download at dr.strange.nl, which also transcribes the Book of the Vishanti. 

Of specific interest are the Book of the Vishanti back-ups in #6-8 and #23. 
#7 features the aftermath of the Viscount Krowler story, and then features Mordo killing Krowler for Dormammu. This said to take place decades before Stephen Strange's car accident, which took place in 1963, so I would place Krowler's death in 1943. So I would place that immediately before the Otherworld War. 


http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Data_Corrections_Marvel_Knights_2005 
Doctor Stranges date of birth: 
Strange is confirmed in the MARVEL: LOST GENERATION series to have been active for many years before the modern era. 
The 1990s Tales from the Book of the Vishanti (from DR. STRANGE: SORCERER SUPREME) said that "decades" passed between 1943 and Strange's accident. The accident was set in 1963 (since 1973 would not have allowed a long enough timespan between the DS/Black Fox/Pixie story in LOST GENERATION and Strange's first meeting with the Fox prior to that). 
Strange's birthdate was set in 1930 because that makes him 33 when he had his fall from grace, making him (as we've always been told he was) sort of a wunderkind to have become such a world-renowned surgeon at such a comparatively young age. 
As a sorcerer who has been referred to as having slowed aging a number of times, Strange's birthdate can stay fixed in time no matter how much time passes.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Mar 2007 09:10 pm    
By Col_Fury

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
(DRSTR3)#7 features the aftermath of the Viscount Krowler story, and then features Mordo killing Krowler for Dormammu... So I would place that immediately before the Otherworld War.  
<<<

For those who don't know, 'the Viscount Krowler story' was in DRSTR2 50 & 51... which are listed in Mordo's or Dormammu's chronologies, but in the then current day. The WWII portions seem to be missing... but was Dormammu time-traveling? I can't remember... 

Any ideas where the Otherworld War should go in the respective chronology listings?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Mar 2007 12:45 am    
By DonCampbell

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
For those who don't know, 'the Viscount Krowler story' was in DRSTR2 50 & 51... which are listed in Mordo's or Dormammu's chronologies, but in the then current day. The WWII portions seem to be missing... but was Dormammu time-traveling? I can't remember... 

Any ideas where the Otherworld War should go in the respective chronology listings? 
<<<

Yes, the Dormammu who inhabited Krowler's body had travelled back in time to World War II in an attempt to conquer Earth before his nemesis Dr. Strange became Sorcerer Supreme. However, the Dormammu who already existed back then also appeared. When Strange realized that he would need more power to defeat future-Dormammu's plans, he (in his astral body) went to the Dark Dimension where (after disguising himself as the Ancient One) he provoked past-Dormammu into blasting him with mystical energy which he secretly redirected so that it blasted future-Dormammu back on Earth. Thus future-Dormammu was defeated without past-Dormammu ever knowing that the "Ancient One" he had fought was actually the sorcerer who would become his arch-enemy in the future. 

In Dormammu's chronology, Otherworld War should go after past-Dormammu's appearance in DRSTR2 #51 and (probably) after the "Mordo sacrifices his mother and grandfather to Dormammu" scene in DRSTR3 7/2-FB (which is also not in the listings). 

Here's the timeline as I see it: 

1666 - Dormammu causes the Great Fire of London during his first attempt to conquer Earth but is beaten back by the young Ancient One (DRSTR3 23/2-FB). 

1888 - Jack the Ripper was Dormammu's mind-controlled puppet (DRSTR3 23/2-FB-BTS). 

Between 1939 and 1943 - Young Karl Mordo first contacts Dormammu (DRSTR3 7/2-FB). 

1943 - Dormammu is unknowingly tricked by the "Ancient One" (actually future-Strange) into helping thwart his time-travelling future-self's plans with Krowler and Baskerville (DRSTR2 51). Later, Mordo sacrifices his mother and grandfather to Dormammu (DRSTR3 7/2-FB). However, I'm not sure if Dormammu himself actually appears in that story. 

October, 1944 - Otherworld War takes place. 

Dormammu's next appearance isn't until decades later when he is BTS in ST 115/2, "The Origin of Dr. Strange." In that story, Mordo calls upon Dormammu for power in his attempts to kill the Ancient One. It was to thwart those attempts that Strange asked to become the Ancient One's disciple. 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Mar 2007 05:23 am    
By Enda80

Where does this fit in? 
Dormammu vs Hiram Shaw (X-Men: The Hellfire Club #1, 2000) 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1051&highlight=ripper 

Does Dormammu deserve BTS for Jack's other appearances? I would give him BTS till the original Jack the Ripper, Tom Malverne, dies bts in Adventures into Terror#29. 

JACK THE RIPPER/TOM MALVERNE 
ADVENTURES INTO TERROR 29 
DRSTR3 23/2-FB 
T 372-FB 
E @1 
ALL-SELECT COMICS 7 
ADVENTURES INTO TERROR 29 


Saucy Jack just appeared in an issue of Wisdom. Does anyone know how that fits in? 

I think that one of the Handbook's indicated that Fu Manchu may have played a part in Jack the Ripper's creation. I'll try to dig out the reference. Perhaps the Zaniac's entry?

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Mar 2007 07:18 am    
By DonCampbell

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Where does this fit in? 
Dormammu vs Hiram Shaw (X-Men: The Hellfire Club #1, 2000) 
<<<

I'd completely forgotten about the Reverend Hiram Shaw. Maybe it was wishful thinking on my part. 

Anyway, Hiram appears in X-Men: The Hellfire Club #1 which was set in Salem, Massachusetts during the Witch Trials of 1692. For his own glory and power, he persecuted witches because of their powers while keeping his own sorcerous abilities secret. A total hypocrite. 

I REALLY disliked the Hellfire Club LS because of its remarkablely poor attention to continuity (like the idea that the 18th Century ancestor of Steve Rogers actually fought the British as a costumed Captain America). The problem in the first issue is that Dormammu, during his confronation with Hiram, actually calls him by the title "Sorcerer Supreme" even though past stories had established that the Ancient One was the Sorcerer Supreme for centuries prior to his death. In fact, DRSTR3 23/2 showed that the Ancient One was already the Sorcerer Supreme by the time of Dormammu's first attack on Earth in 1666. Fortunately, when Dormammu calls Hiram by the title, the words "Sorcerer Supreme" are in quotes even WITHIN the word balloon. This is generally a sign that the speaker is saying something that he knows is untrue. In this case, it could be that Dormammu was mocking the arrogant Shaw by addressing him with a title that was clearly above his power level. 

X:HC #1 occurs WITHIN the flashbacks in DRSTR3 #23/2, after the panels showing Dormammu's defeat at Stonehenge in 1666 by the young Ancient One and before the panel showing his "mind-controlled puppet" killing someone as Jack the Ripper (in 1888). 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Mar 2007 05:50 pm    
By SeanCurtin

DonCampbell wrote: 
>>>
The problem in the first issue is that Dormammu, during his confronation with Hiram, actually calls him by the title "Sorcerer Supreme" even though past stories had established that the Ancient One was the Sorcerer Supreme for centuries prior to his death. 
<<<

Dr. Strange lost the title of Sorcerer Supreme to Salome for a short time. It's possible that the same thing happened with the Ancient One and Hiram Shaw. I think the OHOTMU: Book of the Dead 2004 uses the same rationalization. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Mar 2007 09:27 pm    
By Enda80

Doctor Strange III#8 (sorcerer supreme) had a fb to the creation of Satannish. Later, in the Hellcat series, we find out that Dormammu created Satannish. Satannish existed at least 2000 years ago, since Mephisto mentioned him in a fb set then in Ghost Rider II#77 (as revealed in the OHOTMUDE: Mephisto entry, the origin of Centurious took place 2000 years ago). So Dormammu probably deserves bts for this Doctor Strange III#8 fb.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Mar 2007 10:43 pm    
By Somebody

Weren't all the revelations in that Hellcat mini tossed as a load of dingo's kidneys?

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2007 12:05 am    
By Col_Fury

DonCampbell wrote: 
>>>
Here's the timeline as I see it:  
<<<

So what youre suggesting is this: 

DORMAMMU 
 
DRSTR3 23/2-FB 
*DRSTR3 7/2-FB 
*DRSTR2 50 
*DRSTR2 51 
*DRSTR3 7/2-FB 
*CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
ST 115/2-BTS 
 

But what about the others? From what Im gathering 

ANCIENT ONE, the 
 
W2 113-FB 
DRSTR2 75-FB 
DRSTR2 51-FB (is this the WWII segment?) 
???CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
AA 1 (See ASPOT 37) 
DRSTR3 84-FB 
DRSTR3 85-FB 
DRSTR 169 (12:2 - 13:1:1)-FB 
{ST 115/2 (2:2 - 3:6)} 
 


CLEA 
DRSTR3 22/2-FB 
???CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
DRSTR2 8-FB 
 

HAMIR 
???CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
ST 130/2 
ST 132/2 
 

ORINI 
DRSTR3 22/2-FB 
???CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
DRSTR2 9-FB 
 

BARON MORDO/KARL MORDO 
... 
DRSTR3 6/2 
???DRSTR3 7/2-FB 
???DRSTR2 50 
???DRSTR2 51 
???DRSTR3 7/2-FB 
???CA/NF: OWW 1-BTS (10/44) 
ST 115/2 (2:2 - 5:6) 
 

right?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2007 09:15 am   
By Enda80

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Weren't all the revelations in that Hellcat mini tossed as a load of dingo's kidneys? 
<<<

The idea of Dormammu creating Satannish has received support in recent Handbook, but the idea of Hellstorm being Satannish's son has been disposed of.

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2007 11:28 pm    
By DonCampbell

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
DonCampbell wrote: 
>>>
Here's the timeline as I see it:  
<<<

So what youre suggesting is this: 

DORMAMMU 
 
DRSTR3 23/2-FB 
*DRSTR3 7/2-FB 
*DRSTR2 50 
*DRSTR2 51 
*DRSTR3 7/2-FB 
*CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
ST 115/2-BTS 
 

But what about the others? From what Im gathering 

ANCIENT ONE, the 
 
W2 113-FB 
DRSTR2 75-FB 
DRSTR2 51-FB (is this the WWII segment?) 
???CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
AA 1 (See ASPOT 37) 
DRSTR3 84-FB 
DRSTR3 85-FB 
DRSTR 169 (12:2 - 13:1:1)-FB 
{ST 115/2 (2:2 - 3:6)} 
 


BARON MORDO/KARL MORDO 
... 
DRSTR3 6/2 
???DRSTR3 7/2-FB 
???DRSTR2 50 
???DRSTR2 51 
???DRSTR3 7/2-FB 
???CA/NF: OWW 1-BTS (10/44) 
ST 115/2 (2:2 - 5:6) 
 

right? 
<<<

Not quite. I think your chronologies for Clea, Hamir and Orini are correct (so I've not quoted them) but the others need some tweaking. 

Before I get to that, I should point out that there is some confusion regarding the events in DRSTR2 50-51. Some people mistakenly believe that the Dormammu who was using Krowler and Baskerville to incarnate himself on Earth in 1943 was from the Dark Dimension of 1943. However, it was actually the Dormammu from the then-present (1981) who was manipulating Krowler and Baskerville without his past (1943) self's knowledge. I just mention this because the early "Book of the Vishanti" back-up stories about Karl Mordo's youth were written by someone who shared that misconception. 

First, the Dormammu of 1943 only appeared in DRSTR2 51 so DRSTR2 50 should not be added where you suggest. 

Second, aside from when Dr. Strange impersonated him while attacking Dormammu-1943, the Ancient One only appears in one panel of DRSTR2 51 when Krowler demonstrates the transferal spell he long ago placed in his grandson Karl's mind. However, it's never made clear whether what Krowler "sees" then ("Mordo-the-young-man at the side of the legendary Ancient One in some remote mountain retreat") is a memory of something that he'd previously seen in Karl's mind OR if it was something that was happening at that moment. In either case, that issue's position in the Ancient One's chronology is probably correct but if it was NOT a memory of a past event then the FB notation should be removed from DRSTR2 51. 

Third, the Ancient One played a big part in Mordo's history in DRSTR3 7/2-FB. Scenes taking place before the events of DRSTR2 50-51 include his first meeting with Karl, his early teaching of Karl, and how he warned Karl to "seek not after Dormammu." A later panel shows him reacting in shock to his BTS witnessing of Karl's sacrifice of his family to Dormammu. However, since I can't remember offhand what happened in DRSTR3 84-FB, DRSTR3 85-FB, and DRSTR 169 (12:2 - 13:1:1)-FB, I can't say how those DRSTR3 7/2-FB scenes fit into the Ancient One's chronology (except that they all occur "decades" before Strange first arrived at his retreat). 

Fourth, as with Dormammu and the Ancient One, the Karl Mordo of 1943 does not appear at all in DRSTR2 50 but he does appear in DRSTR2 51 with the Ancient One in that one panel which I've previously mentioned may or may not be a flashback. That issue also contains a one-panel FB of Krowler tempting the boy Karl with knowledge of the dark arts, something that was expanded upon in DRSTR3 6/2-FB. 


Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Weren't all the revelations in that Hellcat mini tossed as a load of dingo's kidneys? 
<<<

The idea of Dormammu creating Satannish has received support in recent Handbook, but the idea of Hellstorm being Satannish's son has been disposed of. 
<<<

Personally, I HATE the idea that Satannish was created by Dormammu (partly because it would mean that Dormammu had travelled millennia into Earth's past in order to do so). I prefer to believe that the reason why Satannish was obeying Dormammu during that LS was because the Dread One had previously secretly captured and brainwashed him. Maybe making Satannish believe that Dormammu was his creator was part of how Dormammu controlled Satannish? Or maybe the Satannish in that LS was actually a doppelganger that Dormammu really had created to replace the real Satannish? Anyway, those are just the ways I wish would be used to explain away a "revelation" that I hate. 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Thread 44

Posted: 25 Mar 2007 09:44 am    Post subject: Wild Thing (1993 Marvel UK)
By Dhall

Here's a Marvel UK series that doesn't cross over with anything, or have any Marvel US Guest stars. 

Note: According to the indicia, the title of this series is Wild Thing. Not to be confused with the MC2 series of the same name. Note that in the comic, Nikki is never referred to as Wild Thing  Thats just her password, not a codename. Also note that the character Carlyle, was a member of a group called Death Duty which was supposed to spin off into its own title, and cross over with this one, but by then Marvel UK ended up cancelling a bunch of its titles, so that never saw publication. 

Wild Thing #1 
April 1993 
Characters Appearing: 
Louie 
Effy (also in fb from six months ago) 
Nikki Doyle (also in 2 fbs from six months ago) 
Detective Trout (also in fb) 
Liddel 


Note: This series takes place in the year 2020 A.D. 
Nikki is a virtual reality games addict. She is now being used by the police to investigate a gaming parlor, and rescuing addicts from VR games. After they bust the parlor, the cops come under attack. Nikki is already plugged into a game, facing vr versions of Venom and Carnage. 

Wild Thing #2 
May 1993 
Characters Appearing: 
Nikki Doyle 
Detective Trout 
Liddel 
Carlyle (a member of Death Duty) 

Nikki is still in the game, but is able to pull herself out and rescue an addict, before any backup arrives. 

Wild Thing #3 
June 1993 
Characters Appearing: 
Nikki Doyle (also in fb, before the fbs in issue 1) 
Detective Trout 
Liddel 
Carlyle (a member of Death Duty) (also appears in origin fb) 
Gabe Steiner (also in fb) 
Lt. Pyke 
Yukio 


The place blows up and Nikki is rescued by Carlyle, a member of a team called Death Duty who works for SHIELD. Nikki used to work on games with a guy named Gabe Steiner, who is working for a programmer named Yukio. The cops bust Gabe, install a back door into his equipment, and Nikki goes in to spy on him. When Gabe gets shot, Nikki comes out of VR, and decks Lt. Pyke 


Wild Thing #4 
July 1993 
Characters Appearing: 
Lt. Pyke 
Janet Richart 
Nicholai 
Nikki Doyle 
Detective Trout 
Liddel 
Dorian Trask 
Arch 

Top shield brass have rebuked Pyke for pushing Nikki too far. Her talent is needed for SHIELD to gain control of VR. Nikki, worried about having to go back to prison, jacked herself into a blank program, and is unreachable. Liddel tries to rescue her. Nikki ends up infiltrating Trask Tech (though VR.) She is caught by a VR Sentinel, but manages to escape. Not before she is recorded by TraskTech. 

Wild Thing #5 
Aug. 1993 
Characters Appearing: 
Nikki Doyle (also in 2 fb between issues 4 and 5) 
Detective Trout (also in fb between issues 4 and 5) 
Gyle 
Jakes 
Liddel 
Mysterio 

Nikki investigates a VR gang, and ends up fighting Mysterio in VR. 

Wild Thing #6 
Sept. 1993 
Characters Appearing: 
Mysterio 2020 (Quentin Beck) 
Nikki Doyle (also in fb with Liddel from months ago, before issue 1) 
Gyle 
Liddel (also in fb from before issue 1) 
Det. Trout 
Janet Richart 

Nikki fights Mysterio, with the help of Gyle (who turns out to be a shield agent) and Liddel. 

Wild Thing #7 
October 1993 
Characters Appearing: 
Nikki Doyle 
Crane 
Dorian Trask 
Arch 
Det. Trout 
Liddel 

Nikkis day off. She runs into an old friend, Crane, and goes into a VR game with him, which is really being run by Dorian Trask. Liddel goes into the game to rescue her. However, Trask takes him out. Now Det. Trout will have to go in and save them both, but oh wait the series has been cancelled 


**ARCH 
WT 4 
WT 7 

**CARLYLE 
WT 3-FB 
WT 2 
WT 3 

**DOYLE, NIKKI 
WT 3-FB 
WT 1-FB 
WT 1-FB 
WT 6-FB 
WT 1 
WT 2 
WT 3 
WT 4 
WT 5-FB 
WT 5 
WT 6 
WT 7 

**GYLE, AGENT 
WT 5 
WT 6 

**LIDDEL 
WT 6-FB 
WT 1 
WT 2 
WT 3 
WT 4 
WT 5 
WT 6 
WT 7 

**MYSTERIO 2020/ QUENTIN BECK 
WT 5 
WT 6 

**PYKE, LT. 
WT 3 
WT 4 

**RICHART, JANET 
WT 4 
WT 6 

**STEINER, GABE 
WT 3-FB 
WT 3 

**TRASK, DORIAN 
WT 4 
WT 7 

**TROUT, DETECTIVE 
WT1-FB 
WT 1 
WT 2 
WT 3 
WT 4 
WT 5-FB 
WT 5 
WT 6 
WT 7

			*	*	*

Thread 45

Posted: 05 Feb 2006 07:59 pm    Post subject: FF/IM: Big in Japan #2-4
By SKleefeld
Director

Big in Japan #2 

Okay, monsters are attacking Japan and the Japanese military are called out. The FF and Iron Man run around trying to save civilians and stop giant monsters while Mr. Fantastic examines Dr. Yamanes museum to see if theres any useful data he can find. While everyones kung-fu fighting with the giant monsters, Reed finds a large bladder/trachea/translator which he uses to speak with one of the monsters. He learns of the impending approach of a Walking Apocalypse and he barters with the giant monster to sway his cohorts in return for the FF and Iron Man defeating this new threat. 

As far as chronological clues, theres not much to go on. Clearly this occurs right after #1, and the various monsters cited here suggest it's before Monsters on the Prowl, but that's about all we've got. Sue makes reference to the robot being over 40 years old, and a soldier references an old manual from the 1950s. One of the monsters notes that some of their kind did fight the vanquishers (their name for meta-humans apparently  were shown an illustration of Thing, Invisible Woman, Thor (sans cape), Ant-Man, Wasp (original costume), Iron Man (same armor as shown throughout the story), Hulk, and Dr. Strange) before they went back into hiding. The only other possible chronological clue is that Reed notes that they have faced Galactus. 

Appearances by: Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Thing, Human Torch II, Iron Man, Dr. Yamane, Giganto (yes, the same whale-fish thing that Namor used to attack New York back waaaaay back in FF #4), Droom (from Tales to Astonish and Monsters on the Prowl, Grogg (from Monsters on the Prowl and Strange tales, Eerok (a King Kong like creature whos also called Gojira by some fleeing citizens in the story). 

Big in Japan #3 

We start off at the North Pole where the FF and Iron Man uncover an ancient cavern. They go inside, meet some 2-dimension shadow creatures and are led to a central chamber with lots of surreal visuals. The shadow people start thanking the heroes for bringing the key and Dr. Yamane removes his clothes to reveal that his body is covered with tattoos that match the dcor. He somehow merges with the wall; theres some lightning flashes and then reality starts ripping apart. We get some more surreal artwork and the so-called Apocalypse Beast tears open the page and jumps into the story. The Beast is absolutely huge and the heroes land on it without it even noticing. Reed has Ben pry open one of its pores (about the size of a manhole cover) and Iron Man and Suzie drop themselves in to see if they can stop it from the inside somehow. Just and Tony and Sue disappear from sight, Reed starts trying to determine the Beasts destination to which the Mole Man  on a giant, flying slug  reveals that the Beast is headed to Monster Island. 

No more chronological clues. Clearly theres enough time after #2 for everyone to make their way up to the North Pole, but there is just ZIP to go on here. Theres a reference to the cavern they find was originally sought out by a Kayama Expedition forty years ago, but thats the only clue I can find. 

Appearances by: Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Human Torch II, Thing, Iron Man, Dr. Yamane, Mole Man, Apocalypse Beast 

Big in Japan #4 

The FF and Iron Man follow Mole Man to Monster Island with the Apocalypse Beast not far behind. While Invisible Woman and Iron Man navigate their way through the Beast, the others find hordes of Moloids doing yoga. Mole Man leads Reed to a machine which has some pictographs of the Apocalypse Beast and his origins. Meanwhile, Invisible Woman slides between some neurons and downloads what the Beast is thinking: its going to rip the Earth apart because the ancients took a piece of it. Somehow  and for as little sense as this story makes, this really takes the cake  Reed surmises that the Monster Island volcano is actually a giant, steam-powered syringe thats intended to inject the Beast with the Moloids, who are in fact a kind of virus engineered to take down the Apocalypse Beast.  So they turn on this machine, inject the Beast with Moloids (who start tackling the Beasts immune system), and Iron Man and Invisible Woman miraculously escape while the Beast literally turns itself inside out and sprongs into outer space. Everyones happy except Mole Man whos crying over what will become of his Moloids. 

In an epilogue, dated 12425 A.D. two Moloid-looking creatures re-enact the Superman origin, shooting their baby into space while proclaiming how doomed their species is. 

Still nothing to place this chronologically anywhere. The whole series seems to occur over a day or two, and is pretty uninterrupted action throughout the book. We could force holes into if we need to, but I think itd be best if we kept it self-contained. 

As noted earlier, the costume references are so far up artistic license alley as to be non-useful. The only thing I can see as a reference is that IF all the Moloids are gone, then this simply has to occur sometime after the last time we see them. I say if because the story doesnt actually specify that they ALL leave. All the ones that the Mole Man seems to know about leave, but not necessarily every last one of them. 



So, the best we can get chronology-wise from the whole series is... sometime between The Galactus Trilogy and Monsters on the Prowl. 

			*	*	*

Posted: 05 Feb 2006 09:55 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
So, the best we can get chronology-wise from the whole series is... sometime between The Galactus Trilogy and Monsters on the Prowl.  
<<<

Oh my. Something's telling me: 
1) I'm glad I didn't buy this title; 
2) I shouldn't worry about it, at least not for the next installation of the calendar. 

Thanks for shedding light on this, Sean.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Feb 2006 11:00 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Oh my. Something's telling me: 
1) I'm glad I didn't buy this title; 
<<<

You know, it wasn't a BAD story -- it was just wildly different from anything you'd ever expect from a Marvel comic and didn't really speak to the FF or Iron Man in particular. You could've dropped in just about any set of heroes -- Marvel or otherwise -- and gotten pretty much the same story. I'm reminded more of early Robert Crumb and Gilbert Shelton than of Jack Kirby and Don Heck. 

It doesn't surprise me that it was selling half as well as pretty much anything else featuring the FF. (I don't keep up with IM sales figures.) It just really doesn't strike me as something that you can really sell to Americans at all. Even if you understand some of the manga conventions that don't generally get translated into English books (like what you might see on Teen Titans for example) this just got plain surreal in several places. 

Kudos to Marvel for trying to experiment, but... wowzers, that was just a weird experience.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Feb 2006 06:08 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

It didn't help that the price tag was #3.50 per issue. Seriously, why go the whole "cardstock cover" route with this miniseries? Does Marvel think a story like this is going to be that much in demand, to warrant charging $3.50 each issue?!?
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Feb 2006 08:43 pm    
By Eric J. Lawrence

Of course now the cruel irony is that, with the tragic passing of artist Seth Fisher, these issues may very well be highly sought after, if only briefly. 

I happened to enjoy the series, but certainly more as an afficionado of surrealism than as a Marvel chronologist. 

EJL

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Mar 2007 08:37 pm    
By Enda80

"Eerok (a King Kong like creature whos also called Gojira by some fleeing citizens in the story). " 

Gdjira is the actual Japanese name for Godzilla, but was previously only used in an Earth-616 story before in X-Men I#181 when some Japanese youths flip through a book describing monsters. 

By the way, hasn't the location of Monster Isle varied a bit? 

In Fantastic Four Index#1 

The Monsters of Monster Isle (first 
appearance.Monster Isle is located in the Bermuda 
Triangle and is not to be confused with Monster 
Island, the residence of Godzilla and other monsters 
located near Japan; 

However, it seems that the two monster islands are being treated the same. Perhaps this has to do with those portals from FF I#316.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Mar 2007 09:12 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

Thanks, Enda80, but absolutely none of that is relevant to the MCP.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Mar 2007 09:49 am    
By Enda80

I would suggest that Godzill'as entry read 
GODZILLA/GOJIRA 

GODZILLA/GOJIRA 
..................... 
GZILL 24 
**IM 193 
**IM 194 
**IM 196 
**TG 31 

The Monster Hunters file book confirms that the creature from those Iron Man issues and Thing was a mutated Godzilla, btw. Godzilla just returned to his original form in Mighty Avengers#1. 

http://forumopolis.com/showthread.php?p=1241993 

Have any of these other monsters appeared before?

			*	*	*

Thread 46

Posted: 29 Mar 2007 02:53 am    Post subject: Daredevil/Black Widow: Abattoir GN
By JLH

Thus begins a trio of Gap GNs! 

------------------------------------ 
DAREDEVIL/BLACK WIDOW: ABATTOIR Marvel Graphic Novel [July 1993] 
Writer: Jim Starlin 
Art: Joe Chiodo 
"Abattoir" 

Cast: 
DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK (also in FB and FB within FB) 
BLACK WIDOW II/NATASHA ROMANOVA (also in FB) 
FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH (BTS in main story; fully present in FB) 

Other characters: 
Rose (telepath who kills telepaths. Dies) 
Charlie (serial killer. Dies) 
Wilson, Fred (former Esper SHIELD Agent, dies) 
Bancroft, Dexter (SHIELD Agent, dies) 
Baxter, Anne "Christine" (FB-BTS only) 
Rose's mother and father (FBs only. Both die) 


Summary: Black Widow's been taken captive by a telepath who kills other telepaths! She's partnered up with a serial killer, who shares the task of mutilating and torturting a pair of SHIELD agents. Natasha is forced to live some of Rose, the telepath's, past. Luckily, Daredevil arrives at their secret lair, a cabin in the snowy Catskills, to save the day. Unfortunately, he's knocked out from exhaustion and is prepared to be the next killed. Black Widow breaks out to save him, killing the serial killer. Rose takes over Natasha, trying to force her to kill herself, but Daredevil intervenes, and Rose is stabbed instead. After a vaguely lesbianic kiss, she dies in Natasha's arms. Later, on the SHIELD Helicarrier, Black Widow recovers from her ordeal, at least physically. Though DD stops by to lend some support, she has to face the mental scars alone, much of Rose's anguish having imprinted on her, possibly forever. 


Flashback: Most of the story is told in FB, with Natasha remembering how she got captured. Nick Fury informed her Anne Baxter, a friend she had from even before she defected to the US, was killed investigating the deaths of SHIELD Espers. She agrees to look into it herself, and enlists Daredevil to help learn who killed her friend. Some sleuthing reveals up to 50 telepaths, some latent, had been vanishing from the NY area. A sting operation concerning a SHIELD Esper leads to Black Widow getting captured by the telepath killer! Daredevil follows, with Fury and SHIELD trying to keep track from afar, having had "chopper appropriations trouble". DD steals a rundown Taxi from the George Washington Bridge, which he uses to trail the killer's van. Yes, he drives for most of the story. 

During the FB, there's a two panel remembrance of Anne Baxter's face and a generic shot of Natasha and Anne in front of the Kremlin in the days when Natasha was a Soviet Agent, but before she defected. 

There's a FB during the big story FB, showing Daredevil putting a stop to two crooks making off with a little girl in an alleyway. This is presumably what he was up to before Natasha contacted him, and is intercut with that. 

Later, we get a "psychic flashback", where Natasha is absorbed into Rose's childhood memories, and is witness to her father abusing her, then killing her mother, and soon Rose, developing powers, forces him to kill himself. 


Continuity notes: SHIELD files shown to us at the start of the story reveals Black Widow is a "one-time Avenger" at this point. 

Daredevil's file mentions Matt Murdock is a "disbarred attorney". 

Nick mentions that in their "last meeting", Natasha made it clear she didn't work for SHIELD any longer. 

Matt is living in a weird place with pictures all over the wall of faces, and his costume is his standard red. Black Widow's costume is her standard light gray, high-collared one. 

Fury wears a suit & tie in every scene, and sits at a desk with a computer for much of the story. 


Goofs: The SHIELD file for Black Widow lists her base of operations as "Mobile, Alabama". Yes, someone took the term to imply a person has no base of operations and is not tied to any one place to mean they live on the Gulf Coast. 

Anne Baxter's name changes to "Christine" after her first mention. In fact, she's called "Christine" more than she is Anne! 

Rose, despite Natasha claiming is 12 in the psychic FB, looks about 5. We later learn from Rose she learned she could control others when she was about 10, conflicting that age thing even more. 

------------------------------------ 

My best guess for placements. Comments enforced! 


DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK/"JACK BATTLIN" 
... 
ASM 288 
**DD/BW:A-FB-FB 
**DD/BW:A-FB 
**DD/BW:A 
DD 242 
... 

BLACK WIDOW II/NATASHA ROMANOVA 
... 
DD 239 
**DD/BW:A-FB 
**DD/BW:A 
DD 247 
... 

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
... 
IM 227 
**DD/BW:A-FB 
**DD/BW:A-BTS 
H2 342 
...

			*	*	*

Thread 47

Posted: 29 Mar 2007 10:17 pm    Post subject: Sgt. Fury 94, 96, 97, 98, 102
By Col_Fury

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #94 
Appearances: 
Sgt. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Gabe Jones, Reb Ralston, Dino Manelli, Izzy Cohen, Pinky Pinkerton, Eric Koenig, Capt. Sawyer 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg3 
Captain Sawyer briefs the Howling Commandos on their mission: evacuate a German town before Allied bombers destroy the munitions factory in the small city. 
pg4-pg20: after midnight 
Fury and the Howlers parachute into the town and discover that there is no factory; the Nazis have leaked false information so that the Allies would destroy a defenseless town for no reason. They try to convince the village obermeister to evacuate, but his son is a Nazi officer who wont allow it. Meanwhile at Able Company, a bombardier tells his pilot that he doesnt want to drop bombs anymore, even though they have a mission in an hour. Back in Germany, Fury breaks free and tries to evacuate the town, but its too late. The town is destroyed and only a few who found shelter survive. Dum Dum assaults the Nazi officer after he accidentally kills his father. Eric is unconscious, but Fury has been severely wounded. 

References: 
Continued in issue 96. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #96 
Appearances: 
Sgt. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Gabe Jones, Reb Ralston, Dino Manelli, Izzy Cohen, Pinky Pinkerton, Eric Koenig, Capt. Sawyer 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg21 
Eric wakes up and the Howlers prepare to carry Fury two thousand miles to the coast. Meanwhile, Hawkeye the bombardier tells his pilot he wants out of the service. Later, Captain Sawyer rattles Hawkeyes cage and sends them on a rescue mission for the Howlers. Back in Germany, Eric scouts ahead to find transportation, and the rest of the Howlers come across a regiment of Panzers. 

References: 
Continued in issue 97. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #97 
Appearances: 
Sgt. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Gabe Jones, Reb Ralston, Dino Manelli, Izzy Cohen, Pinky Pinkerton, Eric Koenig 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg21 
As the Howlers try to fight off the Panzer tanks, Hawkeye and his pilot arrive and supply air support. After thinning out the German forces, the plane crashes and the pilot dies, but Hawkeye parachutes out. Meanwhile, Eric is captured. 

References: 
Continued in issue 98. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #98 
Appearances: 
Sgt. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Gabe Jones, Reb Ralston, Dino Manelli, Izzy Cohen, Pinky Pinkerton, Capt. Sawyer, Ralph Hoss Cosgrove, Roland Ace Hamilton, Jake Jensen, Larry Hillbilly Wagner, Donald Sample, Michael Bullseye Miller, Howard Shigeta, Emory Snakeye Simpson, Laurie Livingston 

Synopsis: 
pg6pn3-pg8-FB 
The Howlers escape, but Hawkeye is killed. 
pg1-pg6pn2, pg9: the next day 
Captain Sawyer informs Dum Dum that he will lead his own attack squad: the Deadly Dozen. Dum Dum doesnt want a command position, but Sawyer tells him hell do it anyway. 
pg10-pg15: the next day 
Dum Dum brings Dino and Pinky to Capt. Sawyers office, where theyre informed that theyre being transferred to Dugans Deadly Dozen. Dum Dum is promoted to Sergeant, they meet the rest of the Dozen, and their two week training begins immediately. 
pg16: some time in the two weeks following pg15 
Sgt. Dugan trains his Deadly Dozen in hand-to-hand combat. 
pg17-pg21: two weeks after pg15 
Fury has recovered, and the Dozens training is finished. That night, they stop German spies from entering Britain. 

References: 
Sgt. Fury 94-98 is a continued story. At the end, Eric is a Prisoner of War, Dum Dum, Dino, and Pinky are now members of the Deadly Dozen, and Fury has just recovered from his wounds. Dum Dum will be transferred back to the Howling Commandos in Combat Kelly 1-FB, allowing him to appear in Sgt. Fury 102, but Eric wont be freed until Combat Kelly 2. 

Combat Kelly 3, 4, and Sgt. Fury 104 is a cross-over story set in January, 1945 and Eric is back with the Howlers by then. Since SGTF@ 4 has a full line-up, including Eric, these issues must follow the Annual, placing them all in January, 1945. 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #102 
Appearances: 
Sgt. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Gabe Jones, Reb Ralston, Izzy Cohen, Capt. Sawyer 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg20 
Now that Fury has recovered, Capt. Sawyer gives him a mission in Italy: stop the local mob from printing counterfeit money. They plan to flood the market once the war is over in Europe. They travel to Italy and work with Agent Q to destroy the castle that the printing press is in. 

References: 
No Eric, Dino, or Pinky. 

Some placement suggestions: 

FURY, SGT. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
 
SGTF@ 4 (6-30)-FB (12/44) 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 
SGTF@ 4 (31-44)-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF 94 
*SGTF 96 
*SGTF 97 
*SGTF 98-FB 
*SGTF 98 
*SGTF 102 
SGTF 106-FB 
SGTF 106 (02/45) 
 


DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM" 
 
SGTF@ 4 (6-30)-FB (12/44) 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 
SGTF@ 4 (31-44)-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF 94 
*SGTF 96 
*SGTF 97 
*SGTF 98-FB 
*SGTF 98 
*SGTF 102 
SGTF 106-FB 
SGTF 106 (02/45) 
 


RALSTON, ROBERT "REB" 
 
SGTF@ 4 (6-30)-FB (12/44) 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 
SGTF@ 4 (31-44)-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF 94 
*SGTF 96 
*SGTF 97 
*SGTF 98-FB 
*SGTF 98 
*SGTF 102 
SGTF 106-FB 
SGTF 106 (02/45) 
 


MANELLI, DINO 
 
SGTF@ 4-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF 94 
*SGTF 96 
*SGTF 97 
*SGTF 98-FB 
*SGTF 98 
SGTF 106-FB 
SGTF 106 (02/45) 
 


JONES, GABRIEL "GABE" 
 
SGTF@ 4 (6-30)-FB (12/44) 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 
SGTF@ 4 (31-44)-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF 94 
*SGTF 96 
*SGTF 97 
*SGTF 98-FB 
*SGTF 98 
*SGTF 102 
SGTF 106-FB 
SGTF 106 (02/45) 
 


COHEN, "IZZY" 
 
SGTF@ 4-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF 94 
*SGTF 96 
*SGTF 97 
*SGTF 98-FB 
*SGTF 98 
*SGTF 102 
SGTF 106-FB 
SGTF 106 (02/45) 
 


PINKERTON, PERCIVAL "PINKY" 
 
SGTF@ 4 (6-30)-FB (12/44) 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 
SGTF@ 4 (31-44)-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF 94 
*SGTF 96 
*SGTF 97 
*SGTF 98-FB 
*SGTF 98 
SGTF 106-FB 
SGTF 106 (02/45) 
 


SAWYER, CAPTAIN SAMUEL 
 
SGTF@ 4-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF 94 
*SGTF 96 
*SGTF 98 
*SGTF 102 
SGTF 106-FB 
 


KOENIG, ERIC 
 
SGTF@ 4-FB (12/44) 
*SGTF 94 
*SGTF 96 
*SGTF 97 
SGTF 106-FB 
SGTF 106 (02/45) 
 

COSGROVE, RALPH HOSS 
*SGTF 98 


HAMILTON, ROLAND ACE 
*SGTF 98 


JENSEN, JAKE 
*SGTF 98 


WAGNER, LARRY HILLBILLY 
*SGTF 98 


SAMPLE, DONALD 
*SGTF 98 


MILLER, MICHAEL BULLSEYE 
*SGTF 98 


SHIGETA, HOWARD 
*SGTF 98 


SIMPSON, EMORY SNAKEYE 
*SGTF 98 


LIVINGSTON, LAURIE 
*SGTF 98 


Up next: Combat Kelly 1-9 & Sgt. Fury 104!
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 48

Posted: 30 Mar 2007 04:54 am    Post subject: Combat Kelly 1-9 & Sgt. Fury 104
By Col_Fury

Combat Kelly and the Deadly Dozen #1 
Appearances: 
Michael Combat Kelly, Dino Manelli, Pinky Pinkerton, Ralph Hoss Cosgrove, Roland Ace Hamilton, Jake Jensen, Larry Hillbilly Wagner, Donald Sample, Michael Bullseye Miller, Howard Shigeta, Emory Snakeye Simpson, Laurie Livingston, Jay Little Bear, Doc Watson, Dum Dum Dugan-FB, Capt. Sawyer-FB, Sgt. Fury-FB-BTS 

Synopsis: 
pg4-pg9-FB: same night as end of Sgt. Fury #98 
After the Deadly Dozens first mission, Sgt. Dugan is summoned to Capt. Sawyers office. Dugan is being transferred back to the Howlers, and command of the Deadly Dozen is handed over to Combat Kelly now that theyre trained. Dum Dum briefs Kelly on the group, who then recruits two more convicts, one of which is Jay Little Bear, formerly of Captain Savages team. Capt. Sawyer then briefs the team on their mission: destroy a German jet plane prototype and capture the scientist responsible for creating it. 
pg10-pg15-FB: after midnight 
The Deadly Dozen make it to shore and find the aircraft complex, but quickly meet resistance. 
pg1-pg3: following FlashBack 
The Deadly Dozen attempt to destroy the jet plane prototype, but theyre surrounded by Nazi troops. 
pg16-pg20: picks up where pg3 left off 
Hamilton finds the scientist theyre supposed to capture, but he kills him instead. The Deadly Dozen destroy the jet plane and escape, destroying the complex as well. 

References: 
Capt. Sawyer mentions that Fury has recovered and will be back to active status soon, giving him a BTS. 

Jay Little Bear(formerly of Captain Savage) was serving time on trumped up charges. Apparently he and Doc Watson are old friends of Kellys. Cosgrove and Simpson dont make any more appearances after this, I guess Jay and Doc replaced them 

Combat Kelly and the Deadly Dozen #2 
Appearances: 
Michael Combat Kelly, Dino Manelli, Pinky Pinkerton, Jay Little Bear, Capt. Sawyer, Eric Koenig 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg20 
Richard Longtree, Wildcat Smith, and Ronson Carpenter are in a German concentration camp when a guard beats up Longtree. His two friends drag him back to quarters when Jay Little Bear, Combat Kelly, Dino, and Pinky appear through the floor, having tunneled through, to free everyone. Kelly blows up the watchtower and they make their way out with the prisoners, but Longtree, Smith, and Ronson are killed when a plane lands on them. When they return to base, Kelly requests that the three prisoners be given the medal of honor, but the request is denied because they had previously been accused of cowardice. 

References: 
Eric makes his appearance on pg19pn3 and thats it. No mention of him in the plot, and he has no dialogue, but thats his haircut and he was a prisoner at the time. He then goes on to appear in Sgt. Fury 104, which is a continuation of next issue, so there you go. 

Combat Kelly and the Deadly Dozen #3 
Appearances: 
Michael Combat Kelly, Dino Manelli, Pinky Pinkerton, Roland Ace Hamilton, Jake Jensen, Larry Hillbilly Wagner, Donald Sample, Michael Bullseye Miller, Howard Shigeta, Laurie Livingston, Jay Little Bear, Doc Watson 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg5: January, 1945 
Pinned down by German tanks, the Deadly Dozen wait for reinforcements. 
pg6-pg10pn4-FB: July, 1940 
Michael Combat Kelly fights Jake the Snake Cochran for the inter-service heavyweight boxing title. Jake had been drugged, and Kelly accidentally kills him. Hes brought to the stockade by the Military Police. 
pg10pn5-pg11-FB: the following week 
As Kelly gets a lawyer, a General informs him that the charges are being temporarily dropped so he can fight the German boxing challenger. 
pg12-pg19-FB: one week later 
As Kelly prepares on the night of the fight, the German challenger attacks him and cracks his ribs. Kelly goes on to fight anyway, and wins. 
pg20-pg21: January, 1945 
Kelly finishes the story and explains that he was never allowed to box in the service again, even though the charges were dropped. However, thats not why he was in prison; that happened two years later whensuddenly, the Germans attack! 

References: 
To be continued in Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #104! 

Not much of an origin story the Deadly Dozen are a group of convicts, led by a convict. Why is his origin story not about what he did to get convicted? 

Almost no one gets a close-up, but there are a few crowd shots, and Kelly mentions a couple of times that all of the Dozen are here 

Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos #104 
Appearances: 
Sgt. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Reb Ralston, Gabe Jones, Izzy Cohen, Eric Koenig, Michael Combat Kelly, Dino Manelli, Pinky Pinkerton, Roland Ace Hamilton, Jake Jensen, Larry Hillbilly Wagner, Donald Sample, Michael Bullseye Miller, Howard Shigeta, Laurie Livingston, Jay Little Bear, Doc Watson, Capt. Conner, Gen. McCord 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg20 
Dino radios for reinforcements and happens to get Fury. He and the Howlers meet with Gen. McCord and Capt. Conner, and then proceed to the front lines to assist the Deadly Dozen. Capt. Conner asks Furys opinion of what to do next, to which he says press the attack, which Conner doesnt want to do. After conferring in private, Conner sends Fury out to scout ahead, to see how strong the German forces are. When Fury reports back to tell him just how strong they are, Conner doesnt believe him and checks for himself with binoculars. He then totally freaks out. 

References: 
Continued from Combat Kelly 3, and continued in Combat Kelly 4. 

Almost no one gets a close-up, but there are a few crowd shots, and Kelly mentions a couple of times that all of the Dozen are here 

Combat Kelly and the Deadly Dozen #4 
Appearances: 
Sgt. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Reb Ralston, Gabe Jones, Izzy Cohen, Eric Koenig, Michael Combat Kelly, Dino Manelli, Pinky Pinkerton, Roland Ace Hamilton, Jake Jensen, Larry Hillbilly Wagner, Donald Sample, Michael Bullseye Miller, Howard Shigeta, Laurie Livingston, Jay Little Bear, Doc Watson, Capt. Conner, Gen. McCord 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg20 
Capt. Conner has lost it, so Sgt. Fury takes command. He comes up with a plan and they defeat the German forces, but during the fight Wagner gets shot in the face and Miller is severely wounded. Capt. Conner comes across them but leaves, even though Miller calls for help. When Conner regroups with the others, he accuses Fury and Kelly of Mutiny and prepares to shoot them, but Miller arrives and kills him first, then dies himself. Gen. McCord arrives and gives Conner a decoration for bravery, and Fury stops Kelly from telling him the truth. When they leave, they bring Wagners & Millers bodies with them, leaving Conner behind. 

References: 
Conner and McCord dont receive first names, but because they both appeared in Combat Kelly and Sgt. Fury, Ill suggest that they get listings. 

No more appearances from Dino & Pinky after this they rejoin the Howlers BTS to appear in Sgt. Fury 106, with no mention of it in either book. 

Almost no one gets a close-up, but there are a few crowd shots, and Kelly mentions a couple of times that all of the Dozen are here 

With Dino and Pinky back with the Howlers, and Wagner and Miller dead, the Dozen is now down to eight. 

Combat Kelly and his Deadly Dozen #5 
Appearances: 
Michael Combat Kelly, Roland Ace Hamilton, Jake Jensen, Donald Sample, Howard Shigeta, Laurie Livingston, Jay Little Bear, Doc Watson 

Synopsis: 

pg1-pg4pn3 
After a training exercise, Laurie, Shigeta, and Doc go to a bar and reminisce about how they originally met each other. 
pg4pn4-pg8-FB 
Having been kidnapped as spies from a party in London, civilians Laurie Livingston, Doc Watson, and Howard Shigeta meet on a Nazi vessel taking them to Devils Island. Once they arrive, Major Strasser takes Laurie to his quarters and reveals that her father is a prisoner of his, and an Allied strategist. He wants her to convince the father she never met to cooperate and to have dinner with him. 
pg9pn1-pg9pn2 
More reminiscing. 
pg9pn3-pg19-FB 
Laurie has dinner with the Major and stabs him. Shes brought to the brig with the other civilians, and they overtake the Nazi guards and escape, stealing the boat that brought them there. 
pg20pn1 
They finish their story. 
pg20pn2-FB 
The Devils Island prison is destroyed by Allied bombers. 
pg20pn3-pg20pn7 
Kelly enters the bar as the trio leave. 

References: 
Another let-down of an origin story. This has nothing to do with why these characters were in prison, even through the series is about prisoners fighting to regain their freedom 

Yup, the title of the book has changed from the Deadly Dozen to his Deadly Dozen. 

Combat Kelly and his Deadly Dozen #6 
Appearances: 
Michael Combat Kelly, Roland Ace Hamilton, Donald Sample, Howard Shigeta-FB, Laurie Livingston-FB, Jay Little Bear, Doc Watson, Capt. Jack Mad-Dog Martin, Capt. Sawyer-FB 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg3 
The Deadly Dozen and some American troops fight off Nazi soldiers, but Capt. Martins plane is nowhere to be found, and their pick up time has passed. 
pg4-pg8-FB 
At a USO dance, Combat Kelly dances with Laurie but theyre interrupted when Capt. Sawyer enters with a mission for them and ends the party. Sawyer briefs Kelly in his office: Capt. Jack Mad-Dog Martin will fly them behind enemy lines to destroy the Fortress of Doom. Kelly doesnt want Martin in his squad because he went AWOL during a mission, but Sawyer tells him it will happen anyway. 
pg9-pg11-FB: the next day 
As they fly over enemy lines they find the fortress and Sample quickly draws a map. After shooting down a German plane, they parachute down to meet the other troops. 
pg12-pg20: continued from pg3 
The American GIs and the Deadly Dozen fight the Nazi troops and begin to lose ground. As theyre about to be defeated, Capt. Martin reappears and crashes his plane into the side of the fortress, created a giant hole in the wall. The troops surge in a defeat the German soldiers. Martin appears alive afterwards, reveling he parachuted out before his plane crashed. 

References: 
Strange even though shes been on other missions with them, Laurie didnt go with on this one. Also strange, Jake Jensen and Howard Shigeta arent in this issue. So even though Capt. Sawyer thinks this is an awfully important mission, he only sends five of the Dozen and a new guy to make six. I thought this book was called the Deadly Dozen? 

Combat Kelly and his Deadly Dozen #7 
Appearances: 
Michael Combat Kelly, Roland Ace Hamilton, Donald Sample, Jay Little Bear, Doc Watson, Capt. Jack Mad-Dog Martin 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg7 
As Combat Kelly and his men walk to their rendezvous point, German soldiers break into a house and start to steal some food when a nun stops them and makes them clean themselves. When they return, Sister Angelique feeds them and tells how she cam to care for the children at the house. 
Pg8pn1-pg8pn2-FB: France 
Sister Angelique watches as Nazi soldiers take her friends away for being Jewish. 
pg8pn3-pg15pn1 
Sister Angelique mentions that the two boys are orphans that she found wandering the streets. Kelly and his men arrive, and Ace tries to kill the nun for feeding Nazi troops. After a skirmish, everyone calms down and eats. Afterwards, Kelly has a conversation with the Nazi Captain. 
Pg15pn2-pg15pn3-FB: Poland 
A Nazi Captain begins to doubt Hitlers reign. 
Pg15pn4-pg15pn5-FB: France 
A Nazi Captain continues to doubt Hitlers reign. 
pg15pn6-pg20 
Their chat is interrupted when one of the Nazi soldiers attempts to rape the oldest girl. Ace wants to kills him for it, but the nun threatens to shoot everyone if they dont all leave. Kellys men take the Germans as prisoners and they leave. 

References: 
Continued from last issue. 

By now this book should have been called Combat Kelly and his Deadly Half-Dozen. 

Combat Kelly and his Deadly Dozen #8 
Appearances: 
Michael Combat Kelly, Roland Ace Hamilton, Donald Sample, Howard Shigeta, Jake Jensen, Laurie Livingston, Jay Little Bear, Doc Watson, Capt. Sawyer 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg7 
After a training exercise with the Dozen, Kelly and Livingston go on a date to see Casablanca. Afterwards, Kelly is called back to Capt. Sawyers office where hes told theres a mission for him tomorrow. 
pg8-pg19: the next day 
The Deadly Dozen make their way to a castle where Dr. Sweikert is holding inhumane experiments, and their mission is to stop him. They attack an approaching car that has Dr. Lola Steimle inside, Hitlers personal emissary. Livingston disguises herself as Steimle and Kelly as her chauffeur, but theyre quickly discovered and captured. 

References: 
Guess what? Theres no sign of Mad-Dog Martin. The others do show up, though, bringing the Dozen up to eight. 

Combat Kelly and his Deadly Dozen #9 
Appearances: 
Michael Combat Kelly, Roland Ace Hamilton, Donald Sample, Howard Shigeta, Jake Jensen, Laurie Livingston, Jay Little Bear, Doc Watson, Capt. Sawyer 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg19: the day after the end of last issue 
The rest of the Dozen decide to rescue Kelly and Livingston, because theyre been in there for so long. Meanwhile, Dr. Sweikert begins to operate on Livingston. Outside, Doc tries to distract the guards, but hes shot and killed, instead. Inside, Sweikert severs Livingstons Achilles tendons, to later be replaced with steel wire, just to see what happens. Outside, Jake is shot and killed by the guards. As they make their way inside theyre trapped by blast doors. Sample blows the doors open with a grenade, using his body as a shield for the others. Meanwhile, Kelly breaks free and makes his way to Laurie. Elsewhere, Jay and Ace start fighting over the nurses that Ace killed, but in the distraction Howard is shot and killed by a guard. Kelly finds Laurie, but its too late. As he kills Sweikert, Ace is killed on the other side of the door by a guard, his gun had jammed. Kelly and Jay disguise themselves as doctors and leave with Laurie, but Jay is shot as they enter the ambulance. Kelly returns to Able Company base and tells Capt. Sawyer that he quits. 

References: 
And thats it. The End. 

I'm not seeing Combat Kelly in the Key, so I'll suggest the abbreviation CK. 

Some placement suggestions: 

FURY, SGT. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
 
SGTF 98 
*CK 1-FB-BTS 
SGTF 102 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45) 
SGTF 106-FB 
SGTF 106 (02/45) 
 


DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM" 
 
SGTF 98 
*CK 1-FB 
SGTF 102 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45) 
SGTF 106-FB 
SGTF 106 (02/45) 
 


RALSTON, ROBERT "REB" 
 
SGTF 102 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45) 
SGTF 106-FB 
SGTF 106 (02/45) 
 


MANELLI, DINO 
 
SGTF 98 
*CK 1-FB 
*CK 1 
*CK 2 
*CK 3 (01/45) 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45) 
SGTF 106-FB 
SGTF 106 (02/45) 
 


JONES, GABRIEL "GABE" 
 
SGTF 102 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45) 
SGTF 106-FB 
SGTF 106 (02/45) 
 


COHEN, "IZZY" 
 
SGTF 102 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45) 
SGTF 106-FB 
SGTF 106 (02/45) 
 


PINKERTON, PERCIVAL "PINKY" 
 
SGTF 98 
*CK 1-FB 
*CK 1 
*CK 2 
*CK 3 (01/45) 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45) 
SGTF 106-FB 
SGTF 106 (02/45) 
 


SAWYER, CAPTAIN SAMUEL 
 
SGTF 98 
*CK 1-FB 
SGTF 102 
*CK 2 
*CK 6-FB 
*CK 8 
*CK 9 
SGTF 106-FB 
 


KOENIG, ERIC 
 
SGTF 97 
*CK 2 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45) 
SGTF 106-FB 
SGTF 106 (02/45) 
 

KELLY, MICHAEL COMBAT 
*CK 3-FB (07/40) 
*CK 1-FB 
*{CK 1} 
*CK 2 
*CK 3 (01/45) 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45) 
*CK 5 
*CK 6-FB 
*CK 6 
*CK 7 
*CK 8 
*CK 9 

COSGROVE, RALPH HOSS 
SGTF 98 
*CK 1-FB 
*CK 1 

HAMILTON, ROLAND ACE 
SGTF 98 
*CK 1-FB 
*CK 1 
*CK 3 (01/45) 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45) 
*CK 5 
*CK 6-FB 
*CK 6 
*CK 7 
*CK 8 
*CK 9 

JENSEN, JAKE 
SGTF 98 
*CK 1-FB 
*CK 1 
*CK 3 (01/45) 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45) 
*CK 5 
*CK 8 
*CK 9 

WAGNER, LARRY HILLBILLY 
SGTF 98 
*CK 1-FB 
*CK 1 
*CK 3 (01/45) 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45) 

SAMPLE, DONALD 
SGTF 98 
*CK 1-FB 
*CK 1 
*CK 3 (01/45) 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45) 
*CK 5 
*CK 6-FB 
*CK 6 
*CK 7 
*CK 8 
*CK 9 

MILLER, MICHAEL BULLSEYE 
SGTF 98 
*CK 1-FB 
*CK 1 
*CK 3 (01/45) 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45) 

SHIGETA, HOWARD 
*CK 5-FB 
{SGTF 98} 
*CK 1-FB 
*CK 1 
*CK 3 (01/45) 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45) 
*CK 5 
*CK 6-FB 
*CK 8 
*CK 9 

SIMPSON, EMORY SNAKEYE 
SGTF 98 
*CK 1-FB 
*CK 1 

LIVINGSTON, LAURA "LAURIE" 
*CK 5-FB 
{SGTF 98} 
*CK 1-FB 
*CK 1 
*CK 3 (01/45) 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45) 
*CK 5 
*CK 6-FB 
*CK 8 
*CK 9 

WATSON, DOC 
*CK 5-FB 
*CK 1-FB 
*{CK 1} 
*CK 3 (01/45) 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45) 
*CK 5 
*CK 6-FB 
*CK 6 
*CK 7 
*CK 8 
*CK 9 

LITTLE BEAR, JAY 
 
CS 19 
*CK 1-FB 
*CK 1 
*CK 2 
*CK 3 (01/45) 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45) 
*CK 5 
*CK 6-FB 
*CK 6 
*CK 7 
*CK 8 
*CK 9 

CONNER, CAPTAIN 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45) 

McCORD, GENERAL 
*SGTF 104 (01/45) 
*CK 4 (01/45)
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Mar 2007 09:12 am    
By Enda80

Did the letters page to Sgt Fury#104 state whether or not Combat Kelly of the 1970's was the same as the 1950's published Combat Kelly?

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Mar 2007 11:05 am    
By Enda80

There was a guy who asked if Marvel would ever reprint the old Combat Kelly comics, but that letter didn't get an answer, and there was no mention of whether the two Kellys were the same.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 49

Posted: 24 Dec 2006 04:11 pm    Post subject: CFA: The Gap
By ADMINISTRATOR

Okay, guys, with today's update, we've finished Marvel Comics Presents, and we're now in the home stretch for closing the Gap. 

That's the good news. The bad news is that access to my books is going to be pretty limited for the next couple of months, due to the future Mrs. Uatu moving in, and we'll be performing the furniture shuffle for a little while. Well, actually, it's good news that she's moving in, but... 

Anyway, I'm taking this opportunity to throw open the doors to volunteers here to help us in the big push toward closing the Gap. 

I'm still reserving Marvels (Kurt Busiek's series) for myself, but I'd appreciate any help you can provide with other books remaining in the Gap. 

Here are the ones I know we need: 

Avengers Strikefile [John Simons: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED] 
Black Panther: Panther's Prey [Col_Fury: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED] 
Blackwulf [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Blade vol. 8 [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Blade the Vampire-Hunter [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Blade Vampire Hunter (Dec. 1999 - May 2000, 6-issue series) [JLH] 
Blade (May 2002 - Oct. 2002, 6-issue Max imprint series; Col_Fury: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED) 
Blaze [Col_Fury: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Blaze vol 2 [Col_Fury: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Century: Distant Suns [John Simons: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED] 
Clandestine 1-8 [John Simons: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Daredevil/Black Widow: Abattoir Graphic Novel [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Druid [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Fight-Man [Dhall: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED] 
Gambit [SeanCurtin: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Gambit vol 2 [Dhall: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Knights of Pendragon [Dhall: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Legion of Night [Col_Fury: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED] 
Lethal Foes of Spider-Man [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Marc Spector, Moon Knight Special [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Marvel Holiday Special [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Marvel Super-Heroes vol 3 [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Marvels: Blockbuster [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Moon Knight: Divided We Fall [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Nam 67-69 [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Nightwatch [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Northstar [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Punisher Captain America: Blood & Glory [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Punisher: Die Hard in the Big Easy [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Punisher: Kingdom Gone [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Punisher in the Nam: Final Invasion [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Shroud [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Slapstick [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Solo [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Spider-Man & X-Factor [Kevin W.: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Spider-Man Holiday Special [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED] 
Spider-Man Punisher Sabretooth: Designer Genes [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Spider-Man: Arachnis Project [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Spider-Man: Fear Itself [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Spider-Man: Power of Terror [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Spider-Man: Spirits of the Earth [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Spider-Man: Web of Doom [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Spider-Woman vol 2 [Col_Fury: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Spirits of Vengeance [Col_Fury: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Thor Corps [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Wolverine Punisher: Damaging Evidence [JLH: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Wolverine: Evilution [Dhall: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Wolverine: Global Jeopardy [Dhall: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED] 
Wolverine: Inner Fury [Dhall: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 
Wolverine: Killing [Dhall: ANALYSIS SUBMITTED; Project Updated] 


I'm sure there are others I've overlooked. 

The list of titles that have already been closed for 1993-95 is in the 
FAQ. 

I'll try to maintain this list, just as Paul B. does for his calls, if anyone wants to volunteer for a book. 

Thanks, 
Russ
_________________
 
New Accounts use Latveria as your Location when registering.

Last edited by Administrator on 17 Aug 2007 08:57 pm; edited 41 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Dec 2006 05:45 pm    
By Kevin W.
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Spider-Man & X-Factor  
<<<

Is this the "Spider-Man & X-Factor: Shadowgames" miniseries? Written by Kurt Busiek? Yeah, I can sign up to do analysis for that one. 
_________________
Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Posted: 24 Dec 2006 09:28 pm
By ADMINISTRATOR

That's the one. Thanks, Kevin!

			*	*	*
Posted: 25 Dec 2006 01:15 am    
By SeanCurtin

I'll post an analysis for the first Gambit mini shortly. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Dec 2006 01:19 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks, Sean!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Dec 2006 01:42 am    
By JLH

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Spider-Man Punisher Sabretooth: Designer Genes 
Wolverine Punisher: Damaging Evidence 
<<<

I can take these. 

As for one you don't have on your list, the "Blade the Vampire Slayer" book I can do (unless it was already done somewhere in the archives that I overlooked). I've been working on adding stuff missing to Blade's chronology (all his flashbacks, for instance, as the new series deals heavily with his past and MCP lacks it), and was doing the same for all TOD characters, so the Taj Nital addition today is a sign I shouldn't be keeping quiet about it, or else someone will beat me to it!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Dec 2006 01:45 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thumbs up, JLH! Thanks!

			*	*	*

Posted: 25 Dec 2006 02:25 am    
By SeanCurtin

JLH wrote: 
>>>
As for one you don't have on your list, the "Blade the Vampire Slayer" book I can do (unless it was already done somewhere in the archives that I overlooked). I've been working on adding stuff missing to Blade's chronology (all his flashbacks, for instance, as the new series deals heavily with his past and MCP lacks it), and was doing the same for all TOD characters, so the Taj Nital addition today is a sign I shouldn't be keeping quiet about it, or else someone will beat me to it! 
<<<

The Taj Nital stuff that I posted was from a similar-sounding general TOD addition that I've been working on; I was going to post it when I finished an analysis of the Epic Comics TOD series. Feel free to post what you have if it's ready, as you've probably got some relevant books that I don't. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Dec 2006 01:19 am    
By JLH

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Feel free to post what you have if it's ready, as you've probably got some relevant books that I don't. 
<<<

I can guarantee I probably have some wacky placement ideas. 

Why "Nital", btw? He was first named "Nitall", and it almost seemed like every other time they mentioned his name it'd be spelled one way then the other. And what to do about Safron? She's "Caulder" in her Vampire Tales appearances, then "DeVille" in TOD.

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Dec 2006 08:19 pm    
By Col_Fury

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
we're now in the home stretch for closing the Gap. 
<<<

Awesome! 


Administrator wrote: 
>>>
...the future Mrs. Uatu moving in 
<<<

Congratulations, Boss! 

I may be able to grab some of these, but not for a couple of weeks. I'll do what I can to chip in.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Dec 2006 09:05 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
I'm sure there are others I've overlooked.  
<<<

There are lots of Marvel UK books from 1993-1995...

			*	*	*

Posted: 26 Dec 2006 10:12 pm    
By SeanCurtin

JLH wrote: 
>>>
Why "Nital", btw? He was first named "Nitall", and it almost seemed like every other time they mentioned his name it'd be spelled one way then the other. 
<<<

The OHOTMUDE spelled it "Nital", and IIRC the majority of his appearances used that spelling as well. At any rate, the earlier issues of TOD (around 1-10) aren't especially consistent with later issues: Dracula begins the series thinking that he's been dead since Stoker's Dracula, Taj lost his voice a different way, Quincy lost his legs a different way, Quincy's wife had a different name, etc. 


JLH wrote: 
>>>
And what to do about Safron? She's "Caulder" in her Vampire Tales appearances, then "DeVille" in TOD. 
<<<

I prefer "Caulder", which is supported by the new OHOTMU. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2006 04:26 am    
By JLH

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
At any rate, the earlier issues of TOD (around 1-10) aren't especially consistent with later issues: Dracula begins the series thinking that he's been dead since Stoker's Dracula, Taj lost his voice a different way, Quincy lost his legs a different way, Quincy's wife had a different name, etc. 
<<<

Probably the most annoying retcon would have to be the sudden decision around issue 30 to have "it takes three days to rise as a vampire from the time you're bitten" shoehorned in without it ever being an issue prior. 

I'm actually now done with analysis of TOD, I can post what I have tonight, in fact. Will you be doing the text stories from Dracula Lives and TOD II, or are those even canon? I know a few involved Lilith, at least. 

And Russ, my mistake, the title is "Blade the Vampire Hunter" for that volume. Killer, Slayer, Hunter... he needs to pick a title and stick with it!

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2006 07:44 am    
By SKleefeld
Director

I can take Panther's Prey.

			*	*	*

Posted: 27 Dec 2006 08:35 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks, Sean!

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Dec 2006 02:42 am    
By JLH

Here's a few not on the list, but not on the MCP, that I can cover (I've actually been planning on doing these for a while. Anyone wants to do any of them, please feel free, I won't be touching them until I finish work on the Blade stuff anyway): 

Punisher: Kingdom Gone 
Punisher: Die Hard in the Big Easy 
Punisher in the 'Nam: Final Invasion 
The 'Nam #67-69 
Punisher/Captain America: Blood and Glory #1-3 
Webspinners: Tales of Spider-Man #3-12, 14 
The Punisher Ashcan (1994)

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Dec 2006 10:34 am    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Note that Webspinners is not in the Gap, and while we'd welcome an analysis, it won't receive the priority placements that the Gap analyses are receiving right now. 


watching: scooby doo

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Dec 2006 03:02 pm    
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Quote: 
>>>
Punisher: Die Hard in the Big Easy  
<<<

Cool. I have this sitting on my desk right now, but I'm so lacking in knowledge about the Punisher's chronology that I wouldn't have any ideas about where to place it. Thanks, JLH.
_________________
Paul B.

			*	*	*

Posted: 30 Dec 2006 04:55 pm    
By JLH

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Note that Webspinners is not in the Gap, and while we'd welcome an analysis, it won't receive the priority placements that the Gap analyses are receiving right now. 
<<<

Sorry about that. I just copied and pasted my reminder list, and despite removing "Werewolf by Night" vol 2, that one slipped in. 

I notice also that Nightsalkers 16-18 are absent. Since they lead right into Blade the Vampire-Hunter, I could do those along with it. 


Paul Bourcier wrote: 
>>>
Cool. I have this sitting on my desk right now, but I'm so lacking in knowledge about the Punisher's chronology that I wouldn't have any ideas about where to place it. Thanks, JLH 
. 
<<<

When that was published, 1992, it was an easier (or more difficult) year for Punisher placement, since internal continuity was a lot looser then for him. Once Suicide Run started in 93, they tightened the belt, and one-shots were directly referenced in several of the main stories.

			*	*	*

Posted: 06 Jan 2007 06:50 pm    
By Dhall

Alpha Flight Vol. 2 -1 does not appear to be listed in the project. 

Also as pointed out in the MU forum, the Generation X Holiday Special needs to be analyzed and added to the project.

			*	*	*

Posted: 09 Jan 2007 03:25 am    
By JLH

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Marvel Holiday Special 
Marvel Super-Heroes vol 3 
<<<

What year Holiday Special specifically? And what issues of MSH3? I know most of both are already in the MCP, I'm just surprised to hear these aren't already covered. 


Quote: 
>>>
Nam 67-69 
Punisher Captain America: Blood & Glory 
Punisher: Die Hard in the Big Easy 
Punisher: Kingdom Gone 
Punisher in the Nam: Final Invasion 
<<<

Put me down for these. I'll knock 'em out in the next day or so, get them out of the way. Of course, I'll probably also do some reorganizing of the Punisher and Microchip entries, since a great deal of the 94-95 War Zone arcs were "Legends of the Dark Knight" style 'earlier in continuity' tales that don't go exactly were published.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jan 2007 01:33 am    
By JLH

Okay, I went through a few sources and figured out what's missing: 

M/HOL 1 (published in 1991; only the first story is in the MCP, as M/HOL 1991) 
M/HOL 1993 (published in 1992) 
M/HOL 1994 (published in 1993; white cover with ornaments; all stories currently in the MCP) 
M/HOL 1994 (published in 1994; yellow cover with stockings) 

Marvel Super-Heroes vol 3 #13 (Spring 1993; 2nd story is in the MCP), 14 (Summer 1993; first story is in the MCP), 15 (Fall 1993; 1st story is in the MCP). 

Avengers Strikefile 
Century: Distant Sons 
ClanDestine 1-8 
Daredevil/Black Widow: Abattoir GN 
Darkman #1-6 (and Movie Adaptation?) 
Druid 1-4 
Fight-Man 
Legion of Night 1, 2 and Graphic Novel 
Marvel Fanfare 
Marvel Saga (where applicable) 
Meteor Man 1-6 (and Movie Adaptation?) 
Moon Knight: Divided We Fall (1992) 
Marc Spector, Moon Knight (with Shang Chi) Special (1992) 
Northstar 1-4 
Savage Hulk bookshelf format special 
Silver Surfer: The Enslavers (I think there was a discussion that suggested this was chronologically dubious) 
Solo 1-4 
Spider-Man: The Arachnis Project 1-6 
Spider-Man: Web of Doom 1-3 
Spider-Man: The Power of Terror 1-4 
Spider-Man: Spirits of the Earth HC 
Tales of the Marvels: Blockbuster 
U.S. 1 #1-12 
What If? (relevant issues, like TimeQuake) 
Wolfpack 1-12, Graphic Novel 
Wolverine: Bloodlust 

And this era was a host to a huge amount of promotional comics with original tales to them. I forget the consensus on their worth to the MCP, but here's a site with a pretty complete list of them for that time: http://217.196.238.182/big-tel/promos/Promo1.htm. 

And for the heck of it, here's a list, slightly modified by myself from Sean Curtin's original post, of issues post-Gap that are absent from the MCP. There's obviously more, and some of these may have been analized in recent times, but I do think there should be a list made of what is missing from the site, Gap or not. 

1602 #1-8 
Ant-Man's Big Christmas 
Apache Skies 1-4 
Blaze of Glory 1-4 
Captain America/Nick Fury: The Otherworld War 
Conspiracy 1, 2 
Crimson Dynamo #1-6 (canon?) 
Deadline 1-4 
Elektra: Glimpse and Echo 1-4 
Epic Anthology 1 
The Hood 1-6 
Howard the Duck Holiday Special #1 (1997) 
Hulk: Gamma Games 1-3 and Hulk: Unchained 1-3 (video game tie-ins - may not be canon) 
Hulk: Nightmerica 1-6 
Marvel Double Shot 1-4 
Marvel Knights Double Shot 1-4 
Muties 1-4 
Namor (Tsunami series) 1-12 
Nightside 1-4 (canon?) 
Rawhide Kid vol 2 #1-5 
Sabretooth: Mary Shelley Overdrive 1-4 
Starlord 1-3 
Spider-Man/Kingpin: To the Death 
Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Negative Exposure 1-5 
Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Out of Reach 1-5 
Spider-Man: Quality of Life 1-4 
Spider-Man: Get Kraven 1-6 
Spider-Man & Wolverine #1-4 (Marvel Knights mini) 
Truth: Red, White and Black 1-7 
Two-Gun Kid: Sunset Riders 1, 2 
Union Jack vol 1 1-3 
Wolverine/Captain America #1-4 
Wolverine: Netsuke 1-4 
Wolverine: Snikt! 1-5 
Wolverine: X-Isle 1-5

Last edited by JLH on 25 Jan 2007 02:06 am; edited 15 times in total

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jan 2007 09:14 am  
By Dhall

Not everything on your list is canon: 

Obnoxio the Clown vs. the X-Men 

for example....

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jan 2007 10:02 am    
By Somebody

I might be able to do Wolverine: Bloodlust (the Alan Davis one-shot, right?). I say "might", because I've got a two-part UK reprint of it, and I'll need to find something to make sure it's complete first, since they occasionally trimmed stuff for length.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jan 2007 11:35 am    
By Dhall

Don't let me stop you, but I can volunteer for the Wolverines, as well. I had thought we'd gone through these a while back, but apparently not so.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jan 2007 10:07 pm    
By Dhall

By the way, Wolverine Bloodlust is already in the MCP, But it's NOT listed in the Key, and should be added.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jan 2007 10:09 pm    
By JLH

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Not everything on your list is canon: 

Obnoxio the Clown vs. the X-Men 

for example.... 
<<<

Then they should be added to the non-canon list. I crosschecked with it in the FAQ, these were all absent. For the record, Obnoxio was from Sean's list, same with US 1 and Wolfpack.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jan 2007 10:14 pm    
By Somebody

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
By the way, Wolverine Bloodlust is already in the MCP. 
<<<

Yeah, I just saw that. A little bit surprised at the placement - after all, he's in northern Canada in W2 34, and given that they were published around the same time it would seem to make sense to place Bloodlust either straight before or straight after that story to take advantage of the synchronity; but Bloodlust's a story with no chronological ties to any other story, so as long as there's a gap where he can nip off to Canada it can go anywhere between his falling for Mariko and the arc leading up to his resumption of the yellow costume, so not a major concern.

			*	*	*

Posted: 13 Jan 2007 10:55 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Fantastic 4th Voyage of Sinbad and The Agent Graphic Novel are already listed. Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Year One is non-canon. 

Many issues of Marvel Fanfare (vol. 1) are either incompletely analyzed or completely absent. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jan 2007 08:25 am    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Then they should be added to the non-canon list. 
<<<

Agreed. Good job on the list, by the way.

			*	*	*

Posted: 14 Jan 2007 07:29 pm    
By John Simons

JLH wrote: 
>>>
Avengers Strikefile 
Century: Distant Sons 
ClanDestine 1-8 
Fight-Man 
Legion of Night 1, 2 
<<<


I know it's been an age and a half since I chipped in, but I would be happy to dig out these books and write 'em up. 

I also have various issues of Marvel Fanfare and Marvel Super-Heroes, but I would have cross-check em against the listings to see whether I have issues that need to be added...
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Jan 2007 05:15 am    
By JLH

I added a few more absent books to the list.

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Jan 2007 08:25 pm    
By SeanCurtin

Eden's Trail, Gun Theory and Kingpin are non-canon. New Eternals and Mekanix are already included in the MCP, but aren't listed in the Key. Master of Kung Fu vol. 2 is already in the MCP and is listed in the Key. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 19 Jan 2007 08:57 pm    
By JLH

SeanCurtin wrote: 
>>>
Master of Kung Fu vol. 2 is already in the MCP and is listed in the Key. 
<<<

The final issue, #6, is missing.

			*	*	*

Posted: 20 Jan 2007 02:30 pm    
By Col_Fury

JLH wrote: 
>>>
The final issue, #6, is missing. 
<<<

I analysed issues 3-6 for Paul's Calendar a while back. I didn't include any placement suggestions, but it's pretty obvious that issue six follows issue five for everyone involved.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Jan 2007 12:55 pm
By jannepie

JLH wrote: 
>>>
Okay, I went through a few sources and figured out what's missing: 

Annex: Crucible of Power 1-4 
<<<

I already did some sort of analysis for this. It can be found here: 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2083

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Jan 2007 12:36 am    
By JLH

jannepie wrote: 
>>>
I already did some sort of analysis for this. It can be found here: 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2083 
<<<

...Okay, then! Good! I saw you offering in the search of threads, but missed the actual analysis. Excellent. And should be added to the MCP with the rest of the gap things, when that's done.

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2007 02:25 am    
By Col_Fury

JLH wrote: 
>>>
Truth: Red, White and Black 1-7  
<<<

A while back, I had suggested placements for all relevant characters appearing in this series(like Cap, Reinstein II, Hitler, etc) except Isiah Bradley & his wife, and the 'current day' portion placement for Cap. Mr. & Mrs. Bradley are pretty straightforward, but did we ever come to a conclusion about Cap's 'current day' placement? I remember there being a discussion about it, involving if it was early day Marvel Universe vs modern day Marvel Universe...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2007 12:32 pm    
By John Simons

This is off the top of my head, but doesn't Cap reference recently getting his army back-pay? That would put it somewhere in the early 300's of his series.
_________________
"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2007 12:36 pm    
By Somebody

Ah, that's a fun little thing. Because the writer didn't know that had been used, and thus proceeded in his Cap v4 run shortly after, to treat it as if he just got it as I recall...

			*	*	*

Posted: 28 Jan 2007 04:47 pm    
By Col_Fury

Yeah, that's it! Did we ever decide on a placement? And where in the archives is that?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 01 Feb 2007 12:34 am    
By Col_Fury

I can do Spider-Woman vol 2.
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Feb 2007 01:39 am    
By JLH

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
Daredevil/Black Widow: Abattoir Graphic Novel 
Druid 
Lethal Foes of Spider-Man 
Marc Spector, Moon Knight Special 
Marvel Holiday Special 
Marvel Super-Heroes vol 3 
Marvels: Blockbuster 
Moon Knight: Divided We Fall 
Northstar 
Shroud 
Solo 
Spider-Man: Arachnis Project 
Spider-Man: Power of Terror 
Spider-Man: Spirits of the Earth 
Spider-Man: Web of Doom 
<<<

Put me down for all of these. 

Yes, I'm crazy. And yes, I have the time.

			*	*	*

Posted: 07 Feb 2007 06:49 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

Wow. I'm speechless. Service above and beyond. Thanks, JLH! 


watching: smallville

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2007 02:09 am    
By Col_Fury

Thor Corps was published in 1993... should it be added to the list?
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2007 03:04 am    
By JLH

I could've sworn it was already in the MCP. Maybe its temporal status has caused it to exist on the site once, and then suddenly, no longer! Or I am insane again! 

Speaking of which, Blackwulf 1-10, Nightwatch 1-12, and Web of Spider-man Annual 10 are also absent, residing right in the Gap. I'll do them in a few days unless someone points out they're in the archives or something. 

And another for the MIA list: Spider-Man: Fear Itself GN.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2007 07:24 pm    
By Jason Doty

JLH, wrote about Thor CORPS 

Quote: 
>>>
I could've sworn it was already in the MCP. Maybe its temporal status has caused it to exist on the site once, and then suddenly, no longer! Or I am insane again! 
<<<

The whole thing isn't, but Beta Ray Bill and Thunderstrike appear in it and was curious where you would place it.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2007 09:07 pm    
By Dhall

Just for the record, I've been doing a lot of work on Marvel UK (1990's) though I probably won't post any of it, until I can post all of it at once.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2007 10:27 pm    
By JLH

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
The whole thing isn't, but Beta Ray Bill and Thunderstrike appear in it and was curious where you would place it. 
<<<

It has to be after the prior "Thor Corps" appearances, which were, what, Thor 439ish? They reference their previous 'grouping' in the mini. 

As for Thunderstrike, well, it's got to be before he died! Even from Ray's perspective he's still alive. Ray's in his pre-Starmasters, old Thor costume, so as far as I see, it's probably reflective of their modern time appearances. But I couldn't say entirely, since every time I've ever been in the mood to buy all the issues of Thunderstrike I'm missing, the final 4 or 5 are constantly sold out.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2007 10:30 pm    
By JLH

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
Just for the record, I've been doing a lot of work on Marvel UK (1990's) though I probably won't post any of it, until I can post all of it at once. 
<<<

Good to know somebody is indeed on it.

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2007 10:42 pm    
By Col_Fury

I couldn't tell you anything about the placement of the 'current day' portions of Thor Corps, aside from it's most likely around comics published at the time. But I did suggest placements for the Invaders' appearance in issue 2. 

And at least the FlashBack from Fear Itself is already listed for Hitler...
_________________
"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Posted: 21 Mar 2007 11:49 pm    
By Frederic Krier

Thor Corps came out during the Ron Marz run, where Thor was insane and in outer space. The series has Sep-Dec 93 cover dates, so they came out at around the same time than Thor 466 to 469. The very first issues of Thunderstrike came out during the same period. 
The Thor who appears in the Thor Corps LS is summoned from somewhere in the timestream, and not the then current stark raving mad Thor. 
As I've never read Thunderstrike, I don't know how it fits in in his chronology.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Mar 2007 08:33 am    
By Jason Doty

Thanks for the assistance. Not knowing very much about Thor characters, I think I can safely place this series on my revised read list between Thunderstrike no.1-2, untill a more solid place can be found.

			*	*	*

Posted: 22 Mar 2007 05:59 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Good to know somebody is indeed on it. 
<<<

If the Mys-Tech board didn't figure into almost every comic, it would be quicker to analyze, on the plus side, it makes it fairly easy to work out the inter-title chronology...The sheer amount of Marvel US character appearances will require some time and effort. That I'm saving for last.

			*	*	*

Posted: 23 Mar 2007 05:53 pm  
By SeanCurtin

A list of Marvel US character appearances by issue in the Marvel UK titles would probably be the best start to determining what titles need to go in what order. In terms of Marvel UK-related chronologies, there are a few pertinent chronological references in the 1992-1994 Marvel UK titles: 

* Ranaulph Haldane dies in Hell's Angel #1, so that should occur before any other non-flashback appearances of the Mys-Tech Board of Directors. Likewise, the Board of Directors become the youthful Techno-Wizards in Dark Angel #13-16, so those issues should follow any others in which the board members appear as their previously aged selves. 
* Warheads #6-7 occurs between the Death's Head II LS and the Death's Head II ongoing series. 
* Motormouth and Killpower #6-9 occur after Digitek #1-4. 
* Dark Angel #9-12, Motormouth and Killpower #9, Death's Head II vol. #5, Warheads #11, and Knights of Pendragon vol. 2 #12 are direct tie-ins to the Mys-Tech Wars LS. 
* Dark Guard #1-4 occurs before Death's Head II vol. 2 #13-15. 
* Death's Head Gold #1 occurs between the flashback and present-day sequences in the second story in Death's Head II vol. 2 #14. (My personal preference is to place this as Death's Head II's final chronological appearance to date, since the story begun in Death's Head Gold was never finished.) 
* Shadow Riders #1-4 occurs after Warheads #14. 

-Sean

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Mar 2007 06:06 pm    
By Dhall

Quote: 
>>>
Death's Head Gold #1 occurs between the flashback and present-day sequences in the second story in Death's Head II vol. 2 #14. (My personal preference is to place this as Death's Head II's final chronological appearance to date, since the story begun in Death's Head Gold was never finished.)  
<<<

What about his appearance in Avengers Forever #11? 

DaveH

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Mar 2007 06:30 pm    
By Somebody

I thought none of the massed Avengers & "B-Vengers" in AF11-12 (except, of course, for the core team) counted, since they could be drawn from any universe at any point in time and are thus completely unplaceable.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Mar 2007 06:36 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

To me, "unplaceable" means the appearance "can't go anywhere," as opposed to "could go anywhere." If the latter, I think we should place it; it simply means we have great latitude. Even in a time travel story, my preference would be to place the appearances as close as possible to the publication order, unless circumstances dictate otherwise. 


watching: veronica mars

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Mar 2007 08:37 pm    
By SeanCurtin

The thing is, why should we assume that the Death's Head II in AVF is the same Death's Head II from Marvel UK? We know that many - probably the vast majority - of the assembled Avengers are from alternate timelines. Gambit appears in one panel of AVF 12 - is there any evidence that that's the Earth-616 Gambit? If not, what evidence is there that the AVF Death's Head is the same Minion from the Marvel UK comics? After all, neither Gambit nor Death's Head have ever been Avengers on Earth-616.

			*	*	*

Posted: 31 Mar 2007 08:46 pm    
By ADMINISTRATOR

I take your point, and didn't mean to imply that we should assume they were 616 versions of the characters. 

I was saying that if there were identifiable versions (for instance, from various what if stories), this appearance should be placed in the chronologies for those identifiable characters/versions, even if we don't know for certain when appearances occur. 

The post in question had said they could come from any universe, at any time, and were therefore unplaceable. I guess I'm saying I would agree with you on the "from any universe" part, but just because they could come from "any time", doesn't prevent us from placing them. 


watching: fox 6 news
