
	Marvel Universe Forum
1. W2 9-23
2. Counting Mini-Marvels tales
3. Venom #11
4. Awesome Android additions
5. Generation X / UX 325
6. Mission Reports
7. Martine Bancroft
8. Citizen V: Everlasting
9. New Notation
10. Witchblade Punisher
11. Emmanuel Da Costa
12. Not Sure...
13. Abdul Alhazred
14. Two Midas'?
15. Dr. Strange, Clea, Ancient One in Black Rider One-Shot
16. X-Men: First Class canon?
17. Bengal Note
18. Marvel Indy Anthology 
19. Reed Richards meets Sue Storm
20. COLLINS, EMMA
21. Placement of Sensational Spider-Man Annual #1
22. Storm's early chronology and New Mutants I#34
23. Hela in New Mutants#37
24. Arnim Zola
25. M/SH3 4/4
26. Invaders
27. Magneto

	Issue Analysis Forum
28. Avengers Collector's Edition #1 (Charleston Chew, etc)
29. DEADPOOL LIMITED SERIES 1993
30. Spider-Man Family vol 2 #1 & 2
31. Ghost Rider Collector's Edition #1 (1993; Kay-Bee)
32. June call for analyses 
33. X-Men: First Class Special 1
34. CFA: GR4
35. Sgt. Fury and his Howling Annuals 4-7!
36. Marvel Collector's Edition: X-Men #1 (1993; Stri-Dex)
37. Century: Distant Sons one-shot
38. Exiles 84-94, @ 1
39. Spider-Man: The Mutant Agenda 1994
40. Marvel Westerns: Strange Westerns
41. Marvel UK 1992-1994
42. Wolverine:Saudade
43. Marvel Frontier Comics

	Chat Forum
44. New Warriors #1 - this can't fit, can it? [SPOILERS]
45. Coming from Marvel in September
46. Iron Man in BFF:BG&L 1
47. New Avengers 31 [SPOILERS]






Thread 1

Subject: W2 9-23

01 Jun 2007 02:58 pm 
By Lucifer

Found some characters that were in W2 11-23 that weren't in the Project yet. 

Corrigan, Burt 
W2 11 
W2 12 
W2 13 
W2 14 
W2 15 
W2 16 

Caridad, Felix Guillermo 
W2 18 
W2 19 
W2 20 
W2 21 
W2 22 

And some characters that need additions to their entry 

La Bandera 
W2 19
W2 20
W2 21 
W2 22 
W2 23 

Gateway 
UX@ 13 
M/SH3 6-BTS 
M/SH3 8 
W2 17 
W2 19-BTS 
UX 247 
UX 248 
UX 249 

I would also suggest a BTS for Spore in W2 17-20. 

And finally a question about W2 9. According to the Project Vision is in this comic. Am I blind or is that a mistake? 

Lucifer

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01 Jun 2007 03:06 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Lucifer wrote:
>>>
And finally a question about W2 9. According to the Project Vision is in this comic. Am I blind or is that a mistake?
<<<

*looks at the issue* 

Gotta be a mistake - the present-day segment of the issue is very short, and while the bulk is set in the (very general) area of Wolverine/Cable to Hulk 181, no sign of anyone in green, yellow and red. Barring a very strange retcon, no Vision.

			*	*	*

01 Jun 2007 03:08 pm 
By Lucifer

Well that means I'm not blind then. Phew I was almost worried there for a second. :wink: 

Lucifer

			*	*	*

01 Jun 2007 03:10 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Hmmm... 

Is it possible I meant WM2 (Wonder Man, v2)? 

			*	*	*

01 Jun 2007 03:11 pm 
By Lucifer

That would make perfect sense. That is the Operation Galactic Storm crossover. 

Lucifer

			*	*	*

By Peter Fabricius

I just checked the issue, Vision is in WM2 9

Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

01 Jun 2007 03:31 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Vision correction updated within 30 minutes. 

*shrug* I just wanted to set a record. Thanks for the quick detective work, guys! 


watching: snakes on a plane

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Thread 2

Subject: Counting Mini-Marvels tales

03 Jun 2007 05:26 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Procedural questions: 

The mini-Marvels tales that appear in such comics as Spider-Man Family and X-Men: First Class Special are, of course, non-canonical, but do we count them when figuring out how to number canonical stories in those comics? 

Do we count reprints in such anthology comics?

Paul B.

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03 Jun 2007 06:54 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm not sure to what extent "mini-Marvel" tales are different from other stories, but we do count non-canon stories in our "/" notations here. See, for example, the Thanos story in Logan's Run. 

Not sure if that's the question you were asking... 


watching: star trek tng

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04 Jun 2007 06:02 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Russ. That was what I was asking.

Paul B.

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Thread 3

Subject: Venom #11

03 Jun 2007 07:31 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm looking at Venom #11, and trying to place it. 

It occurs two years prior to Venom 1-10. It begins with the climax of a battle between Venom and Spider-Man. Spider-Man is unconcious, at Venom's mercy, and he's rescued by the Fantastic Four, who capture Venom. 

This 3-issue arc (11 - 13) is clearly intended to be Venom's last appearance prior to Venom 1, but any thoughts on where this story takes place for Spider-Man and the FF? 


watching: star trek tng

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03 Jun 2007 09:08 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Given the FFs costumes(black on blue, instead of white on blue) and that Sue isnt visibly pregnant, most likely sometime after FF3 54 for the FF. Otherwise, it's pre-Onslaught/Heroes Reborn... which wouldn't work for Venom's chronology.(when the FF first returned, they were in the Davis-designed suits, which aren't the suits in the Venom appearance. Also, they were in Pier 4 for a good chunk of the run, not in a sky-scraper. FFPlaza/Baxter Building/Whatever appears in Venom 11) 

Given sometime after FF3 54 for the FF, PPSSM2 43 & ASM2 40 were published around the same time. Looking in this area at the respective chronologies, a spot that lines up is the Order 5 & 6.(Venom 10 is right after ORDER 6 in Spider-Mans chronology, given the FFs costumes, its probably not two years, Paul B. suggests two months) So, sometime before ORDER 5 & 6, and after FF3 54. Spider-Man & Human Torch line up in TW 13-FB, and everyone lines up in TB 57, so here are some possible placement suggestions: 

Mr. Fantastic 
 
FF3 54 
TB 57 
*VENOM 11 
TSHLN-BTS 
DEF2 9 
 

Thing 
 
FF3 54 
TB 57 
TB 58-BTS 
*VENOM 11 
TSHLN 
DEF2 9 
 

Invisible Woman 
 
FF3 54 
TB 57 
TB 58-BTS 
*VENOM 11 
DEF2 9 
 

Human Torch 
 
FF3 54 
TB 57 
TB 58-BTS 
TW 13-FB 
*VENOM 11 
DEF2 9 
 

Spider-Man 
 
TB 57 
TB 58-BTS 
TW 13-FB 
TW 13-FB 
*VENOM 11 
PPSM2 38 

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

04 Jun 2007 06:11 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

It looks like the calendar's placement requires a reshuffling of chronologies, but I have Spidey there between SM/DD 1 and A3 51-FB and the FF there between DEF2 10 and A3 51-FB.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

05 Jun 2007 01:34 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

That works too. 

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 4

Subject: Awesome Android additions

05 Jun 2007 07:59 am 
By lkseitz

Going through a 50 cent box Sunday, I came across the first issue of the Heavy Metal arc in Avengers. This led me to do some Internet searches, resulting in the following additions to the Awesome Android's entry. 

AWESOME ANDROID 
... 
CA 311 
* A 286 
* A 287 
* A 288 
* A 289 
* ASPOT 27/2 
HFH 1 
... 

And also a currently unlisted character who qualifies for inclusion. 

* HUTCHINSON, BOBBY 
* CA 311 
* A 286

Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Thread 5

Subject: Generation X / UX 325

04 Jun 2007 03:21 am 
By Lucifer

According to the chronologies of Jubilee, Skin and M. UX 325 happens before GENX 7. In Banshee's chronology UX 325 happens after GENX 9. 

I think the placing before GENX 7 fits better. So I suggest moving UX 325 in Banshee's chronology. 


Lucifer

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05 Jun 2007 05:00 pm 
By Dhall

Good catch, but I beat you to it. Updating the listings from this thread has (rightly so in my opinion) taken a back seat to closing the Gap, so it could be a while until this is corrected. 

hmmn, I having trouble posting a link to another forum thread. Anyone want to point out what I need to do? Thanks! 

I am trying to link to a thread titled 
GENX 7-9, UX 325 posted in the Marvel Universe thread on Mon Dec. 04, 2006. 

Dave

			*	*	*

05 Jun 2007 05:13 pm 
By Somebody
Director

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... php?t=2716

			*	*	*

05 Jun 2007 05:17 pm 
By Dhall

Thanks, I think I've gotten the hang of it now!

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Subject: Mission Reports

05 Jun 2007 05:23 pm 
By Dhall

I can't remember what we decided about listing characters who only appear in a written mission report in a book, but not in an actual flashback. 

Do we a) not list them 
b) only list the person who wrote the report as a -BTS listing for when they wrote the report 
c) list them as appearing in a -FB, even though there's no actual FB 
or d) have some other code, to designate that a character is only appearing in a mission report. 

Thanks! 

DaveH

			*	*	*

05 Jun 2007 07:05 pm 
By jephyork
Director

What's a "mission report"? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

05 Jun 2007 07:11 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Those weird Handbook style entries, presumably. 


watching: some cat show

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05 Jun 2007 07:19 pm 
By Somebody
Director

What about transcripts of conversations where the the scene being "transcribed" is previously unseen material (like the interviews in the back of Secret War and the Dugan/AoAt conversation from Agents of Atlas #3)?

			*	*	*

05 Jun 2007 07:31 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

If Mary Jane says to Peter in ASM 823, "Let's go to McDonald's for lunch," and Peter says, "Nahhh. We ate there last week," do we have a second entry for Peter and MJ in ASM 823 (assuming they were both in Fantastic Four 852, the day before ASM 823)? 

I hope not. 

Likewise, I would argue against any kind of "appearance" for characters who only appear in a textual description of an event. 


watching: who wants to be a millionaire

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05 Jun 2007 07:51 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
Those weird Handbook style entries, presumably. 
<<<

Anything like that that describes a previously unseen event, that's only written up in a text entry, which is part of a comic.

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Subject: Martine Bancroft

04 Jun 2007 12:23 am 
By jannepie

If I'm not completely mistaken, Martine Bancroft appeared briefly in SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN # 6 (the first ongoing). I think it was a flashback. Was it old information, since I didn't see the appearance listed in MCP?

			*	*	*

04 Jun 2007 01:51 am 
By JLH

You're right, we'd never seen what happened to Martine after Morbius jumped overboard after killing his buddy. The FB in PP:TSSM 6 showed us her actions immediately following Morbius becoming a vampire, then shows her in the regular story relaying this info to the Fantastic Four.

			*	*	*

07 Jun 2007 10:36 am 
By jannepie

A bit out of the topic, but I noticed a few other missing appearances from early PPTSS issues. 

J. Jonah Jameson and Joe Robertson appear in # 16, and Lockjaw was also seen with the Inhumans in # 11 (one panel only, the first one with the other Inhumans).

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Subject: Citizen V: Everlasting

05 Jun 2007 12:51 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Any thoughts on placing the prologue sequences in Citizen V: Everlasting? 

CV2 1 takes place in 1953, at the funeral for Union Jack II/Brian Falsworth, so it must occur after the flashback in CV 1. I recognize Whizzer, Miss America, Blue Diamond, Thin Man, Jack Frost, Sub-Mariner, Union Jack I, Spitfire, Silver Scorpion, Destroyer, Angel/Thomas Halloway and Iron Cross. Also present is a heroine I don't recognize, a blonde in a blue leotard and a red cape. At the same time, there's another scene with Citizen V II/Paulette Brazee, and Citizen V III/John Watkins Jr. is behind the scenes, presumably as a young boy. 

CV2 2 takes place in 1971, and Citizen V III is asking the Shadow King for help in tracking down Marduk. Destroyer also appears. I've placed Citizen V and Marduk, but I'm looking for help on Shadow King and Destroyer. 

CV2 3 takes place in 1981 and Destroyer asks "Zoltan Nestor" (actually Marduk) for information on the Sumerian god Marduk. 

CV2 4 takes place in 950, and Thor kicks Marduk's ass. 


watching: a haunting

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05 Jun 2007 03:01 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Administrator wrote:
Also present is a heroine I don't recognize, a blonde in a blue leotard and a red cape.
That's Namora. She wore the same outfit in at least N 20-FB. 

Destroyer in CV2 2 goes inbetween FlashBacks in CV 2-FB: 

CV 2 (10:4)-FB: Namor declines to join the V-Batallion 
CV 2 (14:1)-FB: V-Batallion defeats some Skrulls 
CV 2 (14:2)-FB: V-Batallion saves planet from other-dimensional attacks 
CV 2 (14:3)-FB: Roger talks the Watcher out of punishing Tony's & Reed's Dads 
CV 2 (14:4)-FB: V-Batallion checks out Xavier's Cerebro machine 
CV 2 (14:5)-FB: Roger watches TV as Reb Ralston wins his election to Senate 

I'm inclined to put this between (14:3)-FB & (14:4)-FB, if only because (14:3)-FB features the parents of 'current' characters, so pre-FF 1, and (14:4)-FB features the Cerebro machine, which is post-FF 1. I would also put CV2 3 between these same FlashBacks for the Destroyer. 

For Shadow King, after X: TF 3 & before UX 117-FB. Either before or after DPOOL 2-FB-BTS, but for some reason, I'm not seeing a FlashBack in that issue.

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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05 Jun 2007 03:54 pm 
By jephyork
Director

There's a FB in DPOOL2 #2. I don't see the Shadow King there, but then he again he's allegedly "BTS" -- could that be what the MCP is referring to? 

-Jeph!

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05 Jun 2007 04:02 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Now why didn't I think to check volume 2? Thanks Jeph! 

You're right, there's a Flashback to Sean's days with 'the Company.' I would suggest CV2 2 be placed after X: TF 3 & before DPOOL2 2-FB-BTS for the Shadow King. 

As for Thor... I have no idea."Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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05 Jun 2007 05:10 pm 
By Enda80

Thor has quite a few appearances around 1000 CE. I would suggest that the Citizen V appearance be placed before the following: 

http://www.comicboards.com/marvelguide/t.htm 
List Of Appearances; 
Thor Annual 5/Thor Vol.1 #300 (faced Hercules and time-travelling Greek warriors) 
Supernatural Thrillers #3 (first appearance as Sigfried, when a man named James Allison wrongly believes that his adventure as a Nordheimr Aesir was misremembered by later generations as, among other things, the story of Sigfriend against Fafnir) 
Thor Vol.1 #294-300 (adventures as Sigfried, battle against Fafnir recounted) 
Marvel Holiday Special 1992 (Thor helps defeat Grylak the Greater, a troll) 
Citizen V: The Everlasting #4 (Thor defeats Marduk) 
Thor Vol.1 #401 (Thor briefly pretends to be a human viking name Sigurd, enraged when Atlantean mummies animated by Loki killed human viking friend) 
Thunderstrike #20-21 (how he later visited the son of one of the vikings killed by Loki's mummies) 
Marvel Comics Presents #63 (Thor faces the first vampire, Varnae, in a viking colony) 

http://www.marvunapp.com/master/tbtel.htm 
Thor I#294(fb2), 295-299(fb)(sieg) 
<Viking era> Thunderstrike#20/2+21/2, Thor I#300(fb, Journey into Mystery An1, Thor Annual#5, Annual#7(fb2)), Thor Annual#7, Thor I#403, Marvel Comics Presents#63/4, Thor II#52(fb), Captain Marvel V#17, Citizen V and the V Battalion: Everlasting#4(fb), 
JiM#103/2, 108/2, 109/2, 110/2, 111/2, 116/2-125/2, Thor I#126/2-136/2, 137/2-145/2 
Thor Annual#18(fb), Bizarre Adventures#32(fb), Thor323, 

http://www.marveldatabase.com/Asgardians 

Thor would have many adventures around 1000 CE, facing Marduk, Grylak, Varnae, Dromedan, and Atlantean mummies animated by Loki. Thor adopted the mortal Thiafli for Asgard's court. At one point, Thor saw Vikings attacking a Christian monastery; apparently unaware that the Vikings performed such acts for purely profit (monasteries were noted for hoarding gold), while Christian figures had pursued a fierce war against polytheists out of purely ideological Pauline reasons, Thor decided to no longer seek worship on Earth. 

Around 1000 CE, Odin joined with Zeus and Vishnu to oppose the Celestials. Dwarfed by their power, Odin resolved to oppose the Celestials for their next host. Odin thus created the magical robot the Destroyer. Odin later had the Valkyrie and Thor live on Earth as mortals in a series of events that he later wiped from their minds, though he would admit to this brainwashing centuries later. During this time, Thor slew the giant Fafnir, who had transformed into a dragon. (A man named James Allison once incorrectly believed that the story of Fafnir slaying the dragon was only a "racial memory" of a conflict that he had had in his past life as Niord Worm's Bane.) 

Thor Annual#11 shows how Thor witnessed the aftermath of the raid on the monastery. The CV fb with Marduk takes place it seems when Thor still encouraged his worship on Earth.

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05 Jun 2007 05:29 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
I would suggest that the Citizen V appearance be placed before the following: 
<<<

Is this what you're suggesting? 

THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" [ASGARDIAN] 
... 
BIZADV 32-FB 
T 323 
*CV2 4 
M/SH3 15/2-FB 
T 370 
...

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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05 Jun 2007 08:03 pm 
By SeanCurtin

I posted an analysis for this series a while back; it's in archive #50. Here's what I suggested for the funeral scene, given the presence of the V Battalion's core membership at the funeral: 

>>>
In rear - two unknowns, Jack Frost, Miss America, Whizzer, Blue Diamond, Thin Man, Namora. Middle row - Angel, Golden Girl, Iron Cross, Human Top, unknown man, unknown woman (probably Irene Martinez), Sam Sabuki, unknown man, Namor. Front row - Destroyer, Lord Falsworth, Spitfire, Silver Scorpion. All unknowns are wearing suits, so it's hard to tell who's who. One of the unknown men is definitely William, Lord Crichton; the others almost certainly include Fred Davis and "Reb" Ralston. The remaining man might be Red Raven, since the rest of the Liberty Legion is present.
<<<

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07 Jun 2007 07:43 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks, one and all! 


watching: 24

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Thread 9

Subject: New Notation

07 Jun 2007 07:46 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

We've added a new notation to the Key: |cf|, used to annotate the revelation of a BTS appearance, when it's not readily apparent from the main issue itself. 

EX: 

ASM 333-BTS |cf ASM 355| 


watching: 24

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07 Jun 2007 07:47 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Cool! 

What does "cf" stand for? "comes from"? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

07 Jun 2007 07:50 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Latin for confer, or consult. I usually just think of it as "see the following:" 


watching: 24

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07 Jun 2007 07:51 pm 
By Enda80

cf. is an abbreviation for the Latin word confer, meaning "compare" or "consult" 
from wikipedia

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07 Jun 2007 10:15 pm 
By jephyork
Director

cfool. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 10

Subject: Witchblade Punisher

08 Jun 2007 12:13 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Out this week. Any thoughts on canon? 


watching: oscar meyer

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Jun 2007 12:46 pm 
By rhod

It doesn't involve any sort of universe-crossing, just starts off with Punisher and Witchblade existing in the same city. Don't we usually write these off? 

If not, there's nothing that would prevent it fitting into Castle's continuity. It could actually go just about anywhere, being a totally generic story.

"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

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08 Jun 2007 01:28 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

If they share a common universe, it's not canon. 


watching: law & order

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Thread 11

Subject: Emmanuel Da Costa

10 Jun 2007 10:09 am 
By jannepie

Emmanuel Da Costa also appeared in New Mutants vol. 1 # 8, which is missing from the project.

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Thread 12

Subject: Not Sure...

10 Jun 2007 12:11 pm 
By PeterParker007

..where to post this, but in the MCP what does it mean when an issue is followed by numbers in brackets 

for example 

SPIDER-WOMAN 
S-W:O 1 (1-9) 
S-W 1 (6:5-7:3) 

at first I thought it was page numbers, but then the (6:5-7:3) didnt make sense. 

Thank you in advance

			*	*	*

10 Jun 2007 12:59 pm 
By Arthur
Director

The numbers are page and panel references. 

(6:5-7:3) means from page 6, fifth panel to page 7, third panel.

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10 Jun 2007 04:16 pm 
By PeterParker007

Thank You very much

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Thread 13

Subject: Abdul Alhazred

11 Jun 2007 07:05 pm 
By Enda80

The Handbook references his Tarzan appearances.

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11 Jun 2007 10:48 pm 
By wolframbane

Are all the Marvel appearances or Tarzan and Korrak now considered to have occurred on Earth-616? And wasn't there a reference to Opar in OHOTMUAZ 1: Atlantis entry.

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12 Jun 2007 09:25 am 
By Frederic Krier

Apparently yes (Tarzan himself is mentioned in the Handbook entry). And Opar: yes. 
The Handbook writers obviously consider the 1978 Tarzan series to have taken place in 616 continuity.

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Thread 14

Subject: Two Midas'?

07 Jun 2007 11:19 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

From elsewhere: 
John Simons wrote:
>>>
I'm not as up on my Iron Man history as I should be, but are Dr. Midas and the old Shellhead villain Midas Mordecai definitely seperate characters?
<<<

...I have no idea. 

Anyone?

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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08 Jun 2007 01:37 am 
By John Simons

Col, you started a new thread just to say you didn't know the answer?  

Seriously, though, I didn't bother re-asking the question because I think I'm on pretty shaky ground to begin with. If I had access to my Iron Man back issues (currently buried beyond reach in storage), I could look into it myself, but without them all I have is a vague recollection that Mordecai had control of Stark tech at one time, and Dr. Midas showed up in a suit of Iron Man armor. Possibly just a coincidence. 

Plus, Midas is Mordecai's first name, so I guess Dr. Midas would be a silly name for him to use, kind of like if a guy named Phil McGraw starting running around calling himself "Dr. Phil"

"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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08 Jun 2007 04:49 pm 
By michaelyuri

John Simons wrote:
>>>
Plus, Midas is Mordecai's first name, so I guess Dr. Midas would be a silly name for him to use, kind of like if a guy named Phil McGraw starting running around calling himself "Dr. Phil"
<<<

A character named Dr. Phil appears in the Hulk 2099 series. But since Phil McGraw was born in 1950, it must be a statue of Dr. Phil. 

			*	*	*

13 Jun 2007 04:03 am 
By dimadick

For an Appendix profile of Mr. Mordecai Midas see:http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/midasm.htm 

He is basically a Greek man obsessed with wealth and his personal goal is to become the "richest man in the world". Taking over Stark Industries was another step towards his cause. 

On the other hand Dr. Midas first appeared in the "Marvel Boy" vol. 2 #1-6 (August, 2000 - March, 2001) as a main enemy of Noh-Varr. He is a scientist obsessed with collecting and researching allien organisms of various origins. Quite different characterization there.

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Thread 15

Subject: Dr. Strange, Clea, Ancient One in Black Rider One-Shot

12 Jun 2007 09:20 am 
By Frederic Krier

Marvel Westerns: Strange Westerns Starring the Black Rider #1 (that's the title according to the indicia; the cover title is even longer: "The Mighty Marvel Western featuring Strange Westerns Starring the Black Rider") is set in the late 19th century for the most part, and has an appearance by a younger Ancient One, as well as a short epilogue featuring the Ancient One remembering his meeting with the Black Rider, as well as Dr. Strange and Clea. 
I've been wondering about the placement for that last scene. It takes place on "Jan 22 19..", "90 years" after the Black Rider adventure. Stephen and Clea are both in morning gowns, and we are in an unspecified room somewhere in New York, which suspiciously does not look like the Sanctum Sanctorum at all. Now, of course, the Ancient One never lived together with Stephen and Clea at any point during the original Strange Tales/Dr. Strange/Marvel Premiere runs. 
Since the scene doesn't seem to take place in the Sanctum Sanctorum, and we don't see Dr. Strange perform any mystical feats, I would suggest that this takes place after Dr. Strange abandons being the Sorceror Supreme, and asks Wong to board up the Sanctum Sanctorum (Incredible Hulk #126), and before he returns in Marvel Feature vol. I #1/3. We actually have no idea what Stephen and Clea were doing during that whole period. Maybe they shared an apartment in New York, and were visited at one point by the Ancient One. 
What do you think? 

Placements according to this suggestion would be: 

ANCIENT ONE 
... 
UX 33-FB 
MWSWSBR 1/1 (11:4 - 26:5) 
W2 113-FB 
... 
DRSTR 178 
MWSWSBR 1/1 (26:6 - 26:9) 
M/FEA 1/3 

CLEA 
... 
DRSTR 183-FB 
MWSWSBR 1/1 
M/FEA 2 

DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 
... 
H2 126 
MWSWSBR 1/1 
M/FEA 1/3

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12 Jun 2007 09:54 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Frederic, 

Marvel Westerns: Strange Westerns hasn't been added to the Project. Can you submit a complete issue analysis? 


watching: lost

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12 Jun 2007 11:50 am 
By Frederic Krier

OK, I can do a full analysis too. Give me a couple of days.

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13 Jun 2007 09:01 am 
By Frederic Krier

It's now up at Issue Analysis. 
Wonder what went wrong with the database. I already was unable to read it in preview form. Anyway, thanks for fixing it.

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Thread 16

Subject: X-Men: First Class canon?

18 Mar 2007 11:00 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Speaking of First Class, it's been announced that it will be an ongoing series starting in June.

It's been a fun mini, but I wonder how many problems an ongoing will create?"

Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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19 Mar 2007 05:49 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I have the First Class stories occurring between UX 39 and 40. They seem to fit pretty well in continuity there (with a few BTS rationalizations), and so far it looks like the mini won't have to be declared non-canonical. But I agree with Col_Fury -- an ongoing series increases the chances of content being inconsistent with established canon.

Paul B.

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19 Mar 2007 05:45 pm 
By Dhall

I disagree that these fit into continuity. I'm not prepared to make a big analysis of them at this time, but I'm sure they're non-canon, and I thought we had already settled this issue. 

Dave H

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19 Mar 2007 08:57 pm 
By Jason Doty

I think I've managed to place Rampaging Hulk Magazine #2 between X-Men #9 and 10, due to them using Cerebro, Professor X being back from the battle with Lucifer, and Iceman in his ice form. 

Are there any Thor fans that can tell me when Thor, Beta Ray Bill, and Thunderstrike appear in the Thor CORPS limited?

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19 Mar 2007 09:49 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
I'm sure they're non-canon, and I thought we had already settled this issue.
<<<

I was under the impression that we'd settled it the *other* way. 

-Jeph!

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19 Mar 2007 10:48 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I thought the issue was settled when the characters said they were wearing 2.0 versions of the uniforms. Wasn't that the biggest bit of contention?"

Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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20 Mar 2007 05:48 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I believe that's correct. And the new uniforms are easily explained, especially if the series (so far) occurs between UX 39 and 40. Some problem discovered with the Jean-designed costumes from the end of UX 39; Xavier having a set of backup 2.0 uniforms ready to go; kinks eventually worked out with the Jean design and reintroduced before UX 40.

Paul B.

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20 Mar 2007 05:50 am 
By Dhall

The X-Men did not have a giant room-size talking Cerebro! That's clearly not canon. 

Also the X-Men are in the wrong costumes, in #5, they meet Thor for the first time (Is this set before X-Men 9 even though Issue 4, is a sequel to X-Men 33) In 6, they act like they've never been to Greenwich village before, and in 6 the Coffee-a-Go-Go is an internet cafe. 

Clearly this series is not in continuity.

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20 Mar 2007 08:07 am 
By Somebody
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
The X-Men did not have a giant room-size talking Cerebro! That's clearly not canon.
<<<

A prototype which got written out in issue 3 (and, on a personal level, I think of it as having become the basis of the Z'Nox room where Professor X hid out while he was "dead". The room then sat there - since it got superseded by the Shi'ar tech - seeing use only briefly [e.g., when Jean wanted to scan Juggernaut for Onslaught's ID] until Joseph ripped it out to kiss Rogue over NYC.

Then, later, after Mansion was stripped bare and then the "normal" Cerebro went nuts, they used the Muir Cerebro and then rebuilt a "normal" one; but Beast and/or Xavier (after he returned from space again post-Revolution) pulled out the blueprints for the old prototype and did some work, adding what they'd learned since from Sh'iar tech, etc, to improve it until it was ready for the 2000 Annual. Then Beast built on the research further to make Cerebra, and after the Mansion was wrecked, they combined the Cerebro2000 and Cerebra designs into a new Cerebra which looked like the prototype/Cerebro2000. Simple .)


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Also the X-Men are in the wrong costumes, in #5, they meet Thor for the first time (Is this set before X-Men 9 even though Issue 4, is a sequel to X-Men 33)
<<<

It's not said that they're meeting Thor for the first time - they don't recognise Don Blake, and why would they? After that, the only maybe-tricky bit is Thor's "New Heroes" line, but given the circumstances of UX9...


Dhall wrote:
>>>
In 6, they act like they've never been to Greenwich village before, and in 6 the Coffee-a-Go-Go is an internet cafe.
<<<

1) Error, plain and simple - but would you throw out, oh, an issue of Fantastic Four if the Carmilla Black Scorpion showed up and said she'd never been to Madripoor before [despite it being a big part of her origin] solely on that basis? 

2) Two words - Sliding Timeline.

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20 Mar 2007 08:34 am 
By Nathan P. Mahney

I agree that First Class is just on the right side of being canon, as long as you assume that the issues aren't sequential. As for an ongoing, that's going to cause problems unless Jeff Parker is really careful. If they're going to do it, they should probably do it as a Marvel Adventures book.

- Nathan P. Mahney -

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20 Mar 2007 05:01 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
1) Error, plain and simple - but would you throw out, oh, an issue of Fantastic Four if the Carmilla Black Scorpion showed up and said she'd never been to Madripoor before [despite it being a big part of her origin] solely on that basis?

2) Two words - Sliding Timeline.
<<<

1) Yes I would, IF the appearance in question was in an implant series, that supposedly took place in the past. Not so much, if it took place in a regular issue of the Fantastic Four, which isn't a valid comparison. We're not talking about throwing out say all of the current run of FF, we're talking about if X-Men First Class, is in continuity or not. Apples and Oranges. 

2) Doesn't apply to this situation. This isn't a case of who the president is, or what cultural references are being made. This is a plot point, if the X-Men have ever been to Greenwich village or not. If the X-Men went to an internet cafe, that would be a cultural reference, if they go to the Coffee-A-Go-Go, which is a location they visited infrequently in the original series, and it's a completely different place, that's a plot element, that we can use to determine if the issue is canon. If the X-Men start meeting at Avengers mansion, that would be a plot error.

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20 Mar 2007 05:14 pm 
By Dhall

Let's go through the series and pick out things that aren't correct: 

Issue #1, the X-Men are in class. That puts this issue before X-Men #7, where the team graduated. Not incorrect per say, but any issues with them in class, must occur between X-Men 1 and 7. 

References to e-mail, X-Box etc, aren't important, those are topical. 

Cerebro teaching class, we have our first error. Cerebro is a small mutant detector that sits on Xavier's desk, not a giant teaching machine, it doesn't talk, and it's not sentient, this computer clearly has a personality, and is intelligent. This alone is enough for me to state this issue cannot be canon. 

In interviews, the author of this series, mentions that he uses a lot of references from the movies. I believe that this series is canon to the X-Men movie universe. 

Giant walk in Cerebro room,( with holographic projection) error #2. The X-Men didn't have anything like this, and it's beyond suspension of disbelief that Xavier could have built one before he received Shi'ar technology. None of Xavier's tech had holographic capabilities before he hooked up with Lilandra, placing this issue, sometime after the new team started. Mistake! 

Okay, that's issue 1, clearly not in comic continuity, but perhaps in movie continuity. 

oh, and the costumes are wrong too.

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20 Mar 2007 05:39 pm 
By Dhall

Issue #2: Bobbys notes mention the Caf-A-Go-Go. This is a mistake, the X-Men used to hang out at the Coffee-A-Go-Go in Greenwich Village. This is an error. 
He also mentions the Juggernaut, placing this issue, sometime after X-Men 13, at the earliest. 
Scott is not in the least bit shy around Jean, placing this issue very late in the run indeed! Also no one else but Bobby shows the slightest interest in Jeanvery unusual just the opposite of the actual series. 

Issue #3: Scotts notes refer to his owing a car, not canon! (Angel owns a car, but he's rich.) 
The X-Men have a cook, again not so much.(sure its fake, but no one notices) 

Theyre familiar with the Magneto being called Magnus, which places this sometime after X-Men #150! 

X-Men are referred to as being in school, placing this before issue #7 where they graduated.worse Jeans referring to them as college students. Only the X-Men never went to College, certainly not at Xaviers. Jean went to Metro for a while. 
Again, the Cerebro chamber appears, and a sentient Cerebro explains the plot. 
How can any of this possibly be canon? Giant Cerebro chamber=movie universe, or non canon series.

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20 Mar 2007 05:59 pm 
By Dhall

Issue #4: The Sentinels are a late model design, from X-Men issues 57-59, placing this issue after #59, perhaps even later. References to issue 33, place this sometime after that issue, and before 46. 
Xaviers wheelchair with the big X wheels, he certainly didnt have that in the old series. 
Angel talks as though hed never been to Greenwich village before, even though the team hangs out there! 
Issue #5: The Professor has a blackbird, placing this sometime AFTER Giant-Size X-Men #1. 
Issue #6: Theyve changed the name of the coffee shop since issue #1. 
The team refers to Magneto, as Magnus, again placing this series sometime AFTER X-Men #150. 


So, seriously what about this series is canon? I see nothing that I recognize from the originals series at all. All of the details are wrong.

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20 Mar 2007 06:06 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
1) Yes I would, IF the appearance in question was in an implant series, that supposedly took place in the past. Not so much, if it took place in a regular issue of the Fantastic Four, which isn't a valid comparison. We're not talking about throwing out say all of the current run of FF, we're talking about if X-Men First Class, is in continuity or not. Apples and Oranges.
<<<

Not really - if you work around in one series witht hat sort of error, that sort of error shouldn't be considered fatal elsewhere


Dhall wrote:
>>>
2) Doesn't apply to this situation. This isn't a case of who the president is, or what cultural references are being made. This is a plot point, if the X-Men have ever been to Greenwich village or not. If the X-Men went to an internet cafe, that would be a cultural reference, if they go to the Coffee-A-Go-Go, which is a location they visited infrequently in the original series, and it's a completely different place, that's a plot element, that we can use to determine if the issue is canon. If the X-Men start meeting at Avengers mansion, that would be a plot error.
<<<

It's a sliding timeline issue - the CaGG was dated in the 60s. If you're doing a series set in the 90s, you can't use that as the basis for something.

Same deal as "References to e-mail, X-Box etc, aren't important, those are topical." Beatniks, "visual poets" and teenagers in suits are topical.


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Let's go through the series and pick out things that aren't correct:

Issue #1, the X-Men are in class. That puts this issue before X-Men #7, where the team graduated. Not incorrect per say, but any issues with them in class, must occur between X-Men 1 and 7.
<<<

And we're told in issue 4 that these are the "college-level" classes the Handbooks say they did after that but which were never shown.


Dhall wrote:
>>>
In interviews, the author of this series, mentions that he uses a lot of references from the movies. I believe that this series is canon to the X-Men movie universe.
<<<

Ever seen the movies? Y'know, the ones where Iceman is a junior student [until the end of X2], Jean's about ten years older than Cyke, and Angel has nothing to do with the X-Men until Jean's "died"?


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Cerebro teaching class, we have our first error. Cerebro is a small mutant detector that sits on Xavier's desk, not a giant teaching machine, it doesn't talk, and it's not sentient, this computer clearly has a personality, and is intelligent. This alone is enough for me to state this issue cannot be canon.

Giant walk in Cerebro room,( with holographic projection) error #2. The X-Men didn't have anything like this, and it's beyond suspension of disbelief that Xavier could have built one before he received Shi'ar technology. None of Xavier's tech had holographic capabilities before he hooked up with Lilandra, placing this issue, sometime after the new team started. Mistake!
<<<

This IS the universe where Xavier's a pal of Reed Richards, right?

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20 Mar 2007 06:19 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
Ever seen the movies? 
<<<

Okay, now you've made me snarky...

Ever read the comics?

Clearly the guy who wrote X-Men: First Class hasn't.


>>>
Not really - if you work around in one series witht hat sort of error, that sort of error shouldn't be considered fatal elsewhere
<<<

You are comparing apples and oranges, there's no doubt that FF is canon, there's plenty of doubt about first class.


>>>
Beatniks, "visual poets" and teenagers in suits are topical. 
<<<

Only if they're mentioned in passing, if they're used as the basis for a plot element in a story, well that's a plot element. 

Seriously, the X-Men in a story supposedly set in the original run, call Magneto Magnus, fly around in a blackbird, and have a Sentient Cerebro, and we're debating if this is canon? <sigh>

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20 Mar 2007 08:43 pm 
By Jason Doty

David, You have no doubt come up with many reasons why the series can't be canon, but not enough that rules it out of continuity. 

Here are some of the ways to answer your concern. 

Xavier has known about Magneto's name since at least the flashback in UX 161. 

Cerebro is shown serving more functions then previously shown. 

The X-Men are probably engaging in College level courses. 

The original series just did'nt mention Scott's car. 

The X-Men have used many aircraft in the series including commercial and other means. 

The X-Men constumes are refered to being a spare version. 

Scott and Jean becacame more comfortable together after UX 32. 

The Cerebro basement exists, as it has been shown in many canon issues of UX and X-Men since the movie came out, and in this series it is being built and not complete. 

The Sentinel thing we'll have to chalk up to artistic license, as with the other small mistakes. They just don't add up enough to totally rule it out. 

Though I've seen a first look copy of the current issue and no longer believe they take place in order.

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20 Mar 2007 09:19 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
They just don't add up enough to totally rule it out.
<<<

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I think the Cerebro thing alone is enough to declare this non-canon and move on. At some point a few big mistakes, and many little ones= non-canon, and I think this series has reached the point long ago.


>>>
Xavier has known about Magneto's name since at least the flashback in UX 161
<<<

Yes, the keyword is Xavier has known, not the rest of the X-Men.


>>>
Cerebro is shown serving more functions then previously shown.
<<<

Yes, because it is not the Cerebro from the original run, it is something else.


>>>
The X-Men are probably engaging in College level courses. 
<<<

Jean's parents sent her to Metro, to take college level courses, something that she was never shown doing at Xavier's. 


>>>
The original series just did'nt mention Scott's car. 
<<<

For the reason, that he didn't have one. If he had, he could have asked Jean out away from the mansion, without having to take Warren with them everywhere. It's kind of an important plot point in the early original issues that Warren and Jean can just drive off leaving Scott alone moping.


>>>
The X-Men have used many aircraft in the series including commercial and other means.
<<<

Yes, but Xavier didn't acquire a Blackbird until sometime between the old series, and the Claremont run.


>>>
The X-Men constumes are refered to being a spare version. 
<<<

Now I know I mentioned these once, but I'm not actually complaining about the costumes. The costumes are too easy to rationalize away. This is the least of the series problems.


>>>
Scott and Jean became more comfortable together after UX 32.
<<<

Which I would accept, except that this series supposedly occurs in the X-Men's school days, which ended in issue 7 when they graduated.


>>>
The Cerebro basement exists, as it has been shown in many canon issues of UX and X-Men since the movie came out, and in this series it is being built and not complete. 
<<<

The keyword here is after the movie. And the room is in use in this series.

Xavier didn't acquire the tech to do the things shown in this series, until after he had contact with the Shi'ar. (That's when he got the tech to do holographic projections, as evidenced in the Danger Room.)


>>>
It can clearly can be put where it was suggested between UX 39-40. 
If it were in continuity. 
<<<

Of course if it were set at that point, I would have to start complaining about the costumes, as 39 is where they get their individual costumes. IT makes no sense for the team to wear them once at the end of 39, and then again in 40-66, with a break for this series wearing 'version 2.0' of the original costumes. 
Note Xavier's dialogue in UX 39 "It's time the X-Men stopped looking like products of an assembly line." 

Also, the X-Men weren't taking school classes at this time. Seriously, show me a panel where the X-Men are taking classes, after the first seven issues. 

BY the way, Bobby and Zelda are dating by UX 22 (and he first asked her out in UX 14) he's hardly likely to be hitting on girls in front of her at the Coffee-A-Go-Go.....(as shown in FC 6) 

Also Warren was dating Candy Southern at this time, why is he is dateless throughout First Class? 

Ditto for Hank and Vera. 

No this series cannot work between 39 and 40. The romantic relationships alone make it impossible.

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21 Mar 2007 05:52 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

DHall wrote: 
>>>
Also, the X-Men weren't taking school classes at this time. Seriously, show me a panel where the X-Men are taking classes, after the first seven issues. 
<<<

Caution, David. Remember the "don't use lack of evidence as evidence" rule.


DHall wrote:
>>>
Also Warren was dating Candy Southern at this time, why is he is dateless throughout First Class? 
<<<

Does Warren actually state he has no girlfriend in First Class, or is it simply that First Class doesn't depict dates that may have occurred during that time? If the latter, the rule above applies. 

David, you do make some good arguments, but the ones involving lack of evidence may easily be explained away BTS. Otherwise you might argue that the X-Men never had to go to the bathroom. Paul B.

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21 Mar 2007 06:11 am 
By Dhall

>>>
Caution, David. Remember the "don't use lack of evidence as evidence" rule. 
<<<

Yeah I know that, but certain people on this thread seem to be taking it as gospel that the X-Men were taking college level classes during the old series, which just isn't so. If it's a retcon, that's one thing, but let's everyone come out and admit that it's a retcon, not something that was actually depicted during the actual X-Men series.

In interviews it keeps describing the series as set during the x-men's school days. Well anyone who has read the original series, knows that these were very brief indeed. IF the X-Men were taking classes at Xavier's why did Jean's parents send her away to Metro State?


>>>
David, you do make some good arguments, but the ones involving lack of evidence may easily be explained away BTS. Otherwise you might argue that the X-Men never had to go to the bathroom.
<<<

If you show me a whole series composed of the X-Men going to the bathroom, I would question it, but probably on different grounds. <grin>


>>>
Does Warren actually state he has no girlfriend in First Class, or is it simply that First Class doesn't depict dates that may have occurred during that time? If the latter, the rule above applies.
<<<

This will need another look through FC, but everyone is mooning a bit over Jean (especially in the diary sections of First Class.) Doesn't make sense, if this is supposed to be set later in the run, when they are all in relationships. (Would make sense much earlier in the run.) 


I just don't see how a series that shows Xavier with a Blackbird 30 issues early, and a room sized modern design Cerebro 300 issues early can be in continuity for Earth-616. 

How can those two things be in continuity? They can't, and it can't be an art error, since we're talking appearances in multiple issues here. Clearly the writer either hasn't studied the comics, or isn't concerned about continuity. 

Paul Bourcier, what are your thoughts on First Class? I'm curious to hear them.

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21 Mar 2007 10:55 am 
By jephyork
Director

It may be a retcon, but it *has* been previously established in canon sources that the X-Men took college classes at Xavier's after their "graduation" in #7. It's been referenced plenty of times -- this is just the first time it's been seen on-panel. 

(And I may be wrong, but I seem to remember Xavier saying something about "post-grad studies" IN Uncanny #7 or 8.) 

As for Magneto's name -- do we see the X-Men reeling back with shock in UX #150 when his name is revealed as "Magnus"? Do we have proof that they didn't know his name before then? If not, it can be assumed that they knew it, but never chose to utter it on-panel. 

As for the Blackbird -- do we have a specific issue where Xavier acquired it? Do we ever see anyone say "wow, this Blackbird is new!"? If no, then we can assume that he *did* have it before it was seen on-panel. 

As for the Cerebro thing -- well, listen, if you want to use the line about it being a "prototype" to explain why it wasn't seen again, fine. If not, fine. Personally, I like the explanation that the Cerebro chamber we saw in "First Class" became the Z'Nox chamber. A talking Cerebro may not be canon, but the concept of a big high-tech room in the basement has been canon since Uncanny #65... 

-Jeph!

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21 Mar 2007 11:21 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Maybe Jean's parents sent her to Metro because it was cheaper? Or maybe they wanted her to have a public college education instead of a private one? Or maybe Metro offered classes that Xavier's didn't? Or... 

But yeah, it's a retcon. Of course it is, but it's a retcon that makes sense. Xavier's is a school, they had to have been taking classes whethr it was shown or not. 

I have to say, though, that the 'Cafe@Go-Go' is a brilliant name. I love it. 

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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22 Mar 2007 06:03 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Paul Bourcier, what are your thoughts on First Class? I'm curious to hear them.

I've been keeping an open mind about this series, as I have been with Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes II, about which I plan to post when the last issue comes out next month. 

Some things can be explained away fairly easily, others with some difficulty. Now having read issue #7 and it's clear placement during a very brief window between UX 13 and A 16, I'm going to have to rethink this whole series. I'm thinking that a critical mass of retcon is building that will throw this out of canonicity.

Paul B.

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24 Mar 2007 07:19 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Some things can be explained away fairly easily, others with some difficulty. Now having read issue #7 and it's clear placement during a very brief window between UX 13 and A 16, I'm going to have to rethink this whole series. I'm thinking that a critical mass of retcon is building that will throw this out of canonicity.
<<<

Other than telling us that the issues don't occur in publication order (which, with no subplots of any sort running between issues, is only a problem if you want it to be one) what about issue 7?

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24 Mar 2007 08:21 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

I'm curious: What do you do in a situation where one issue out of the entire series is clearly non-canon, and the rest either fit in comfortably, or are borderline okay? Is one issue enough to throw an entire series out of consideration for canon status? Has this occured before now?

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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24 Mar 2007 08:59 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

I would answer with a question. Are we led to believe that the issues which don't contradict canon are in the same "universe" as the issues which are "clearly non-canon"? 


watching: silent hill

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24 Mar 2007 09:25 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
which, with no subplots of any sort running between issues, is only a problem if you want it to be one)
<<<

Let's see, there is the ongoing plotline involving the Blackbird, it's mentioned for several issues before it appears, and the ongoing plotline involving what happened to the X-Men's actual costumes, which is mentioned several times. Also the ongoing plotline of Warren skipping classes (which is resolved in issue 7), the ongoing plotline of the talking room-sized Cerebro, and the ongoing plotline of the X-Men being in class at all at this point in thier careers, which is a new plotline exclusive to First Class. 

As I've mentioned before I believe this is one of the most "clearly non-canon" series I've read in a long time. The only way to make any of the issues fit, is to make a lot of assumptions, accept major retcons, and accept that the characters have all had major personality changes. 

I don't see how we can accept a series which is both set after UX 33, and before A 16. I also don't see how one issue could be canon, and the next not, unless we were talking about an anthology series, which we are clearly not.

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25 Mar 2007 01:49 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
Has this occured before now?
<<<

Well, the first 8 issues of ClanDestine are canon, but the others aren't. I can't think of a single-issue example, though. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
there is the ongoing plotline involving the Blackbird, it's mentioned for several issues before it appears, and the ongoing plotline involving what happened to the X-Men's actual costumes, which is mentioned several times.
<<<

But those aren't plots or subplots. They're, as you said earlier, details. Background information. Plot elements, yes, but not plots. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
the ongoing plotline of Warren skipping classes (which is resolved in issue 7)
<<<

But it was established earlier that Warren skipped class because he felt cooped up. It was only in issue 7 that he was skipping to spend time with Wanda. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
the ongoing plotline of the talking room-sized Cerebro
<<<

Again, background information. It's not like Cerebro is acting funny, building to a head to be resolved in issue 8 or anything. It's just another part of the school appearing... like a toaster. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
the ongoing plotline of the X-Men being in class at all at this point in thier careers, which is a new plotline exclusive to First Class. 
<<<

It may have only been shown in First Class, but it's really not that far of a stretch for them to be taking classes while staying at a school. And it's not really a plotline... it's a status quo. A status quo that wasn't previously shown on panel, yes, and a retcon, yes, but it's not a plotline. Personally, I had always assumed that they were taking classes between issues. 


Nathan P. Mahney wrote:
>>>
as long as you assume that the issues aren't sequential.
<<<

Dhall wrote:
>>>
unless we were talking about an anthology series, which we are clearly not.
<<<

Well, I'm not sure how clear that is. It seems obvious to me that the writer has done enough research to be referencing the original stories. Having had to read them to reference them,(or at least summaries of them) it seems to me that he has to know he's approaching this out of sequence. 

So... why not take First Class out of publication order? The issues read as stand-alone stories. The costumes are easily explained away: every so often they have to use their 2.0 uniforms for whatever reason. It just so happens that the only time we see them in the 2.0s are in issues of First Class. 

Food for thought.

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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25 Mar 2007 07:14 am 
By Dhall

>>>
It seems obvious to me that the writer has done enough research to be referencing the original stories. Having had to read them to reference them,(or at least summaries of them) it seems to me that he has to know he's approaching this out of sequence. 
<<<

Yet not enough enough research to make this a clearly canon series? Not enough research to get the costumes right, to put one issue after another in the correct order? Not enough to get Cerebro anywhere near correct? Not in short, to get any of the details correct? Let's contrast this to X-Men: The Hidden Years, where Bryne did a great job at continuity. 

Bottom Line, if you have to jump through this many hoops to make this thing almost borderline canon, and that's what some of you are doing, then you should step back and realize that it's not worth it, and that the simplest solution is to declare it not canon. 

And by the way ClanDestine 9-12 were explicitly stated as non-canon in X-Men/ClanDestine. Can you find any evidence where the writer states in the comic that some issues of first class (the ones you like perhaps) are canon, and the rest aren't?

			*	*	*

25 Mar 2007 07:55 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
Bottom Line, if you have to jump through this many hoops to make this thing almost borderline canon, and that's what some of you are doing, then you should step back and realize that it's not worth it, and that the simplest solution is to declare it not canon. 
<<<

That's the conclusion to which I'm slowly coming. It appears on the surface that the creators intended this series to be set during the early days of the X-Men and that the issues are meant to occur in sequence. I've been trying to rationalize away a number of things to try to make this series canonical, but it's gotten to be too much of a force-fit. Should this series go the way of Professor X and the X-Men and Children of the Atom?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

25 Mar 2007 03:08 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
And by the way ClanDestine 9-12 were explicitly stated as non-canon in X-Men/ClanDestine.
<<<

I'm not suggesting that some of Fist Class is canon and some isn't, I was just answering Kevin's question. I agree with you that's it's an all-or-nothing deal with any series, unless stated otherwise. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
then you should step back and realize that it's not worth it, and that the simplest solution is to declare it not canon. 
<<<

Ah, but that's my problem. I don't usually like the simple solutions. 

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

25 Mar 2007 04:05 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
That's the conclusion to which I'm slowly coming. It appears on the surface that the creators intended this series to be set during the early days of the X-Men and that the issues are meant to occur in sequence. I've been trying to rationalize away a number of things to try to make this series canonical, but it's gotten to be too much of a force-fit. Should this series go the way of Professor X and the X-Men and Children of the Atom?
<<<

Paul, I agree with you 100%. First Class has collapsed under it's own weight. It's a shame, this series could have been done in a way that would have fit. The school days of the original X-Men are an almost untapped area of continuity. A writer would have just had to use the original costumes, have it all set within the first seven issues (or else very clearly define the nature of the classes/timeframe) and stick with the established technology that Xavier had on the original series. First Class is trying too hard to be modern, and that's coming at the expense of continuity.


Lest anyone think that I'm against these type of implant series, I'm not, I really wanted to salvage Prof X and the X-Men, but it would have meant doing a real hack job, trying to fit some issues as canon, some as not. It wasn't worthwhile in the end.


Col Fury writes:
>>>
Ah, but that's my problem. I don't usually like the simple solutions.
<<<

The simple solutions are not always the most imaginitive solutions, but they're almost always the correct one, in my experience anyway. 

Oh, and I do realize you were pointing out an answer to Kevin's question, I was just pointing out that was a case that was clearly stated in the books. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

25 Mar 2007 06:25 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

That's cool. 

First Class may end up non-canon as the Project is concerned, but I don't mind taking its issues out of sequence, and personally, I think the series adds to the originals. 

But that's me."Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

28 Mar 2007 04:41 pm 
By metaldragon

jephyork said a while back: 
>>>
As for the Blackbird -- do we have a specific issue where Xavier acquired it? Do we ever see anyone say "wow, this Blackbird is new!"? If no, then we can assume that he *did* have it before it was seen on-panel. 
<<<

We know they must have gotten it sometime after the end of Hidden Years because there they only have the Sentinel-ship they acquired at the end of UX 59 in the hangar and that's all they use for their international trips. No sign of a Blackbird.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

28 Mar 2007 05:16 pm 
By Nathan P. Mahney

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
jephyork said a while back:
>>>
As for the Blackbird -- do we have a specific issue where Xavier acquired it? Do we ever see anyone say "wow, this Blackbird is new!"? If no, then we can assume that he *did* have it before it was seen on-panel. 
<<<

We know they must have gotten it sometime after the end of Hidden Years because there they only have the Sentinel-ship they acquired at the end of UX 59 in the hangar and that's all they use for their international trips. No sign of a Blackbird.
<<<

Which doesn't mean they couldn't have had a Blackbird earlier that gets destroyed at some point before issue #59.

- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

28 Mar 2007 05:22 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
Which doesn't mean they couldn't have had a Blackbird earlier that gets destroyed at some point before issue #59.
<<<

How much money do you think Xavier has? <grin>

			*	*	*

28 Mar 2007 06:26 pm 
By Jason Doty

In an interview at http://www.comicon.com, this question was asked and answered of the writer of First Class. 

>>>
THE PULSE: Do these stories take place in the mainstream Marvel Universe or is this sort of a Marvel Adventures type series? Are these done in one tales or continuing sagas?

PARKER: These are in continuity in the Marvel U. The first four issues will be done-in-one, and probably so with the second four. We'll see!
<<<

From my understanding and reading interviews, the author has stated their have been some mistakes, but these issues are self contained and can be placed independently within continuity. Why not give the book the benifit of the doubt and try to place them. 

The latest issue XFC #7, clearly takes place between UX 11 and 12. 
Lets ruff out the rest of the issues and take a stab at it. With all the other continuity issues this collective makes work, I don't see why this is so hard. I mean, Claremont rewrote different sequences in Classic X-Men and those make the cut. 

Furthermore, maybe we could offer our "fan" services to the writer and offer to help him with any blaring continuity issues since this series is now going to be moved to an ongoing.

			*	*	*

28 Mar 2007 06:40 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
From my understanding and reading interviews, the author has stated their have been some mistakes, but these issues are self contained and can be placed independently within continuity. Why not give the book the benifit of the doubt and try to place them. 
<<<

The problem is that even though some are attempting to deny it, there are subplots, plot elements, whatever you want to call them that run throughout the whole series. I don't see how this can be reconciled with the original books in any way that makes sense. 

Unless you want to start making assumptions, like Xavier keeps stealing the team's costumes, he has a blackbird years early, even though quite a few stories in issues 30-66 and hidden years focus on the x-men's transportation problems as a plot element, the now you see it, now you don't giant Cerebro, major personality changes between this and the original series,etc. 

I see no attempt being made by the writer to plant these stories in early continuity. Not to be insulting or anything, but it doesn't seem to be written by someone who has even read more than an issue here or there. 

The problems aren't going to get better in an ongoing series.

			*	*	*

28 Mar 2007 07:40 pm 
By Jason Doty

O.K here's what I've got so far 

X-Men: First Class no.1 and 2 between UX 9 and 10 
X-Men: First Class no.3 and 4 between UX 39 and 40 
X-Men: First Class no.5 between UX 9 and 10 
X-Men: First Class no. 6 and 7 between UX 11 and 12 

This is a jumping off point, if anyone wants to add anything.

			*	*	*

28 Mar 2007 08:09 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
>>>
Which doesn't mean they couldn't have had a Blackbird earlier that gets destroyed at some point before issue #59.
<<<

How much money do you think Xavier has? <grin>
<<<

Well, Morrison was claiming something like three billion dollars... :p

			*	*	*

29 Mar 2007 03:42 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Posted over at parkerspace.com yesterday and got a reply, saying that (1) the issues AREN'T intended to be in publication-order and (2) Mr Parker'll drop in here at some point . 

>>>
http://www.parkerspace.com/2007/03/22/i ... /#comments
Hi, theres an argument going on at the Marvel Chronology Project board about where/if X-Men First Class fits into continuity ( http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... php?t=2920 ). Just wondering where you meant the issues to fall (if anywhere in particular).

Comment by Gerard  On 03-22-07 at 9:20 am

----
Hey Gerard, Ill try to get over there and leave some thoughts that might help. As I just said in an interview somewhere, our stories arent in consecutive order. Since theyre all stand alones, they dont have to be sequential, and they jump all around throughout the early years. But Ill try to explain myself, the editors, etc. when I get a moment to go register and post. In other words, Ill willingly walk into that dunk tank while everyone has a fresh supply of rubber balls!

Comment by Parker  On 03-22-07 at 9:20 am
<<<

(Ignore the timestamps - there's clearly some sort of bug. The original post being replied to was posted on 03-22-07 at 9:20 am, and all the replies are being given the same timestamp).

			*	*	*

29 Mar 2007 07:05 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

That's awesome. 

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

31 Mar 2007 11:41 am 
By Dhall

My concern with this series, does not center so much on placement. 

Rather, my concerns are for continuity reasons. Splitting up the series, only increases the number of problems that require fan explanations for. At some point if you need a lot of these to justify a series it collapses in on itself. 

I believe that we have already reached that point. 

Some of the things that don't fit into continuity without fan explanations: 

Xavier's technology (not consistent with the original series, but rather consistent with the status quo of the 2000's.) 

Characters personalities (not consistent with the original series) 

Costumes (this becomes a big problem, if we split up the issues, we have to accept as canon, that Professor Xavier keeps stealing his students costumes, without explanation to them. Does this strike you as a bit weird) 

There are other various other problems, but a lot of them will depend on what placements, these issues are supposed to have. 

Also, there are continuing elements in the First Class series, and I have pointed these out in an earlier post, that argue against splitting up the series. 

The need to fan-wank so many things to make this canon, is a great argument for it not being canon. 

This type of problem (among others) ruled out Children of the Atom, and Professor Xavier and the X-Men. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

31 Mar 2007 05:49 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
Xavier's technology (not consistent with the original series, but rather consistent with the status quo of the 2000's.)
<<<

And how much of that is window-dressing? It's like the "@Go-Go" thing - you are NOT, in any way form or shape, EVER going to see Cerebro depicted as a reel-to-reel tape recorder ever again, even in flashbacks. In the current Marvel U, the original X-Men stories did not take place in the 1960s, they took place in the 1990s regardless of whether you accept First Class or not. And in a few years time, they'll have taken place in the 2000s.

Do you campaign to throw out any flashbacks to Spidey's high-school years where Peter's not wearing a waistcoat and bow-tie?

[And, even as a "fan explanation", having the big Cerebro in the basement explains to me WTF Prof X got the time and effort to build a huge anti-telepathy chamber in five minutes off-screen (He didn't, he flipped big-Cerebro's switch from "amplify" to "attenuate").]


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Characters personalities (not consistent with the original series)
<<<

Other than Angel's urge to fly off at any point, not entirely seeing this. #2, with Scott'n'Jean on the beach is clearly late on, shortly before Xavier was "killed", and they're an open couple when Scott gets a job as a radio announcer & Jean as a model.


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Costumes (this becomes a big problem, if we split up the issues, we have to accept as canon, that Professor Xavier keeps stealing his students costumes, without explanation to them. Does this strike you as a bit weird)
<<<

Why "srtealing"? It's a backup ("2.0") set of costumes, apparently used on a regular or semi-regular basis whent heir normal costumes were in the wash. Indeed, having them as having been around for a while makes more sense of the mention in #4 that this is after they got their individual costumes but they're in for repairs, so they grab the "2.0" black'n'yellows - why would they create new variations on their old costumes? Because they're not new, they've been around for a while. And the issue #4 flashback to UX33 shows the Kirby-style black'n'yellows, reinforcing that both versions exist.


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Also, there are continuing elements in the First Class series, and I have pointed these out in an earlier post, that argue against splitting up the series.
<<<

And I don't accept that what you refer to are subplots - background elements perhaps, but all minor in the scheme of things. And I simply don't see where you're coming from with respect to some of your earlier posts that you reference there. Hell, that car you complained Scott had in an earlier [but later-set] issue? Explicitly not there in the relatively-early-set #7.

And the WRITER has now said "our stories arent in consecutive order. Since theyre all stand alones, they dont have to be sequential, and they jump all around throughout the early years", and you're still arguing they take place in sequential, publication order against that.


Dhall wrote:
>>>
This type of problem (among others) ruled out Children of the Atom, and Professor Xavier and the X-Men.
<<<

Ummm... those two series were ruled out because they were RETELLINGS which rewrote prior events - the way, say, Marvel Age Spider-Man and Marvel Age Fantastic Four did (except PXXM4, which got ruled out without an analysis simply because the rest of the series was already ruled out). All the XMFC issues are original stories, so it's not the same thing at all. 

PS: OHOTMU Master Edition #26 (the only one could find with any of the original X-Men) lists Jean's "extent of education" as, and I quote, "College level education completed at Xavier's school."

			*	*	*

31 Mar 2007 07:12 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
PS: OHOTMU Master Edition #26 (the only one could find with any of the original X-Men) lists Jean's "extent of education" as, and I quote, "College level education completed at Xavier's school."
<<<

And when pray tell did she get that? When they were fighting the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants? When the team was bumming around Europe looking for Factor Three? When Xavier was believed dead for a third of the original series? When Jean was in a cocoon at the bottom of the bay?

Now, perhaps she finished her college education between the Hidden Years, and Giant Size 1, but that would contradict First Class....

Iceman went to college outside of Xavier's to get his accounting degree.


>>>
...Cerebro depicted as a reel-to-reel tape recorder ever again
<<<

Here's the thing though, Cerebro was a reel-to-reel tape recorder, and NOT a room size holographic talking computer.

Depicting it as the modern version, is a rewriting of the original series.
Clearly not in continuity.


>>>
Ummm... those two series were ruled out because they were RETELLINGS which rewrote prior events
<<<

Yes, I did say those type of problems (among others.) 

I do think that First Class is rewriting the original X-Men Series. 
It's attempting to insert stories with background elements that are not in the same continuity as the original series, and therefore make nonsense out of it. 

And I used the word stealing, because Jean and the others have no idea what keeps happening to their costumes! Smells like foul play to me. 
Why do the team have no idea that there clothes keep vanishing? 

Bizarre!

			*	*	*

31 Mar 2007 09:09 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Dhall wrote:
>>>
>>>
PS: OHOTMU Master Edition #26 (the only one could find with any of the original X-Men) lists Jean's "extent of education" as, and I quote, "College level education completed at Xavier's school."
<<<

And when pray tell did she get that? When they were fighting the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants? When the team was bumming around Europe looking for Factor Three? When Xavier was believed dead for a third of the original series? When Jean was in a cocoon at the bottom of the bay?

Now, perhaps she finished her college education between the Hidden Years, and Giant Size 1, but that would contradict First Class....
<<<

There wouldn't have been enough time for that between Hidden Years and GSX 1 if X:HY had concluded as originally intended. Regardless of that, Jean and Hank must have been continuing their education (off and on) during the time that they were X-Men (and, in Hank's case, probably even longer than that). Just because Jean transferred to another school doesn't prove that she hadn't taken, or been taking, college courses at Xavier's.

>>>
Iceman went to college outside of Xavier's to get his accounting degree.
<<<

That doesn't mean that he didn't first take college-level courses at Xavier's. IIRC, he was only confirmed to have been attending college between the dissolution of the Champions and his membership in the Defenders - hardly enough time to get a degree.

			*	*	*

31 Mar 2007 09:22 pm 
By Dhall

Sean, I agree with everything in your post. I'm just trying to figure out when in the original series this college education (at Xavier's) could have taken place. Since none of it has been shown on panel before, it's very much a matter of speculation. 

I don't think it could occur in the latter part of the original run, with Xavier gone for so much of it. 

Perhaps the graduation in issue 7, was not merely high school, perhaps (at least some of the class) had been taking some college level classes as well. Not a complete college education perhaps, but the equivalent of a 2-year degree? 

Perhaps Iceman had college credits that he could transfer from Xavier's. 
I'm not sure when Jean could have completed her degree. 

And when did Hank McCoy have the time to get that PhD.....

			*	*	*

31 Mar 2007 10:06 pm 
By wolframbane

One thing I am curious about. Is Xavier actually qualified to educate students in a variety of subjects? There was obviously no other teachers at the school. He had a bachelor's degree in biology and PhDs in genetics, biophysics, anthropology and psychology. 

Then again in CX 1, it stated he gave a 'crash course' in English to the new recruits before their big adventure on Krakoa. And also, lets not forget the accelerated virtual reality of Mindscape Xavier invented by Deadly genesis, where students could learn months of experience in only minutes.

			*	*	*

01 Apr 2007 12:27 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
And the issue #4 flashback to UX33 shows the Kirby-style black'n'yellows, reinforcing that both versions exist. 
<<<

That one totally slipped past me. Good catch, Somebody! 
(First, I'm not gunning for you Dave. Honestly. I'm just making sure we're all using the same terms the same way. Someone may get confused if a term you're using they consider to mean something other than the way you're using it. Especially if they haven't read First Class for themselves yet)


Dhall wrote:
>>>
I do think that First Class is rewriting the original X-Men Series. 
It's attempting to insert stories with background elements that are not in the same continuity as the original series, and therefore make nonsense out of it. 
<<<

But that's not the same thing. Rewriting is retelling. Inserting is not rewriting. The Mythos one-shots rewrite. John Byrne's Hidden Years inserts. So does First Class.(we haven't seen an original story represented in First Class yet, like we did in Children of the Atom)


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Here's the thing though, Cerebro was a reel-to-reel tape recorder, and NOT a room size holographic talking computer. 

Depicting it as the modern version, is a rewriting of the original series. 
<<<

But that's lack of evidence. Nowhere did Xavier say 'This reel-to-reel device is not room sized!' Just because we never saw it this way before doesn't mean it wasn't there, it just means it wasn't important to the original plots.(the reel-to-reel would be a component of Cerebro, not the whole shebang) And I like the Z'Nox chamber explanation. 

As for the technology issue, Xavier and Mr. Fantastic are buddies. I don't think it's that outlandish an idea... and he can afford it! He has, like, three billion dollars. It's just the technology got better after the Shi'ar came along because it was from Outer Space. Everything's better when it's from Outer Space! 


As for education:

Dhall wrote:
>>>
I'm just trying to figure out when in the original series this college education (at Xavier's) could have taken place.
<<<

I had always assumed in between issues.


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Since none of it has been shown on panel before, it's very much a matter of speculation. 
<<<

...until now! It's being shown in First Class, taking place in between the original issues.  


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Perhaps the graduation in issue 7, was not merely high school, perhaps (at least some of the class) had been taking some college level classes as well. Not a complete college education perhaps, but the equivalent of a 2-year degree? 
<<<

Now you're grasping. Besides, as Jeph & Somebody pointed out, Marvel sources say they took college level courses at Xavier's after their graduation in issue 7. Therefore, issue 7 was the 'high-school' graduation and any college-level courses happened after that. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Perhaps Iceman had college credits that he could transfer from Xavier's. 
I'm not sure when Jean could have completed her degree. 
<<<

First Class answers these questions!  


wolframbane wrote:
>>>
Is Xavier actually qualified to educate students in a variety of subjects?
<<<

Sure he is! He's a professor, right?"

Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

01 Apr 2007 06:32 am 
By Dhall

Z'nox chamber? Isn't the Z'nox chamber a big mostly empty room? 

Per Jean Grey, in X-Men v.2 #54 The other X-Men don't know about the Z'nox chamber. Xavier never told them about it. 

And I disagree with you, changing the background details is rewriting. Change enough of them, and it's barely recognizable as the X-Men. 

I'm okay with adding new things, but FC is changing things with no explanations. Inserting is when you add new details with explanations. 

And I really don't think it's much of a stretch, for kids at a private university, with a telepathic headmaster to have taken some college classes along with their high school work. Real life students do it all the time. 
And you will notice that I'm not claiming that they finished their college education at that time. 


It all comes down to what is your definition of continuity. 

From Wikipedia: 
In fiction, continuity is consistency of the characteristics of persons, plot, objects, places and events seen by the reader or viewer. 


What I am objecting to with First Class is the lack of said consistency. 

Some of the other people who are posting in this thread seem to be limiting their definition to plot only. I disagree with this. Persons, places, objects are just as important to get right. X-Men: The Hidden Years does a great job with continuity across all aspects.

			*	*	*

01 Apr 2007 03:20 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Dhall wrote:
>>>
Z'nox chamber? Isn't the Z'nox chamber a big mostly empty room?
<<<

There must have been something in it (or around it) in order for it to have done anything...


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Per Jean Grey, in X-Men v.2 #54 The other X-Men don't know about the Z'nox chamber. Xavier never told them about it.
<<<

That doesn't mean that the Z'nox chamber wasn't built from Cerebro, just that the other X-Men didn't know about it.

			*	*	*

01 Apr 2007 03:32 pm 
By Dhall

The deal with the Z'nox chamber is that it is completely and totally psi-shielded. Telepaths can't scan in, and you can't scan out. The walls are made of something that doesn't allow for telepathy. 

Worst place in the world to put a Cerebro unit, as you wouldn't be able to use it in there. 

We see the room in X-Men vol.2 #54. It's pretty empty, just normal computers and the like in it. 

Since the Z'nox chamber has been in existence since at least before Uncanny X-Men 41-42, I take Jean's statement to mean that the others don't even know about the location. It would seem weird to me that if the X-Men knew about a big mystery door in the sub-basement, that they wouldn't at some point check it out.

			*	*	*

01 Apr 2007 04:23 pm 
By Somebody
Director

And yet, look the tech-heavy doughnut Joseph made solely out of the inside of the room in UXM 340 or so, and what he used it for - with no physical barrier between him & Rogue. That pretty much stated the room was a psi-attenuator - that is, an amplifier kicked into reverse, so as to decrease any signals going in and out to nothing, rather than something made out of Juggernaut Helmet Metal.

			*	*	*

01 Apr 2007 05:14 pm 
By metaldragon

Actually, it seemed to be a telepathic booster/focus room for Xavier to study the Z'nox so it doesn't cut off telepathy so much as... concentrate it."May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

01 Apr 2007 10:43 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
Some of the other people who are posting in this thread seem to be limiting their definition to plot only.
<<<

No, they were commenting on what your definition of a plot or subplot was. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
What I am objecting to with First Class is the lack of said consistency. 
<<<

Like Somebody said earlier, we're never going to see that level of consistency. Or at least, the level that you seem to be looking for. These stories don't take place in the 60's anymore, and we're going to have to expect some kind of updating to those stories. 

I'm not seeing anything that contradicts the originals, but I am seeing things that add to them: 

Cerebro, the 2.0 versions of the costumes, & Scott's car have already been covered. 

The X-Men taking college-level classes after issue 7, mentioned in Marvel sources, now shown on panel. I think it's a great addition. 

Cafe@Go-Go is a sliding time-line issue, and a brilliant solution I might add.  

Magnus' name and the Blackbird, no evidence to suggest they didn't know and there wasn't one, respectively. Also, Xavier's wheelchair w/ big X's is a spare that he uses occasionally. The Sentinels are either an art error or prototypes for the later-seen design. Not a problem to me. 

The various team-members' relationships and mooning over Jean are chronology issues, not continuity ones. The writer of the series has said on record that the issues aren't being presented in sequence, so we can place them where ever we want. 

I'm not seeing the hoops to jump through, or the breaking point of continuity. No one's saying this is a seemless fit, but do I think that First Class fits. 

I'm not arguing because I like the series, that's irrelevant. I happen to like the Power Pack meets... minis, but they aren't canon for various reasons, so out they go. But I'm not seeing a reason to toss First Class.

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

02 Apr 2007 05:40 am 
By Dhall

I do not understand your definition of continuity. If Marvel cannot produce comics that are in continuity, then what is the point of them rehashing their 1960's comics? If they cannot get the major details right, then the story is not in continuity. First Class certainly isn't, maybe it takes place on Earth-618, or something, but it certainly doesn't have continuity with places or objects from the original. If this were in a movie, we would be laughing our behinds off at it now. 

Why could Marvel do a perfect job of getting the continuity right for Hidden Years, and not for this?

			*	*	*

02 Apr 2007 07:38 am 
By Col_Fury
Director


Dhall wrote:
>>>
I do not understand your definition of continuity. 
<<<

Continuity is malleable. Just look at Cerebro... Uncanny #7 shows a giant Kirbytech machine with an egg-thing floating in the middle of it called Cerebro. Later, Cerebro is shown to have been upgraded and streamlined. 

That makes just as much sense to me as Xavier being drafted to serve in Korea, then drafted to serve in Vietnam, then volunteering to fight to prove himself...

Or just as much sense as Captain America surviving into the 1950's, then being frozen in April 1945 and the other adventures of Cap being assigned to other characters. 

Or Xavier being telekenetic, then not. 

Continuity is what you said it is: a level of consistency of the characteristics of persons, plot, objects, places and events as seen by the reader or viewer. In my eyes, First Class has that while it updates a few things. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
If Marvel cannot produce comics that are in continuity, then what is the point of them rehashing their 1960's comics?
<<<

First Class isn't rehashing the 1960's X-Men comics, it's updating them. There hasn't been an original story retold in First Class yet. When it does, then it will be rehashing a 1960's comic. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
If they cannot get the major details right, then the story is not in continuity.
<<<

First Class does have the major details right: 5 teen mutants live in a school. Professor X runs the place. Angel has wings, etc. First Class is bringing some details into the 90's, and bringing other details in line with what the X-Men mythos has grown into. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
If this were in a movie, we would be laughing our behinds off at it now. 
<<<

I did laugh pretty hard at "Hey guys. It's me. The Blob." That was funny. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Why could Marvel do a perfect job of getting the continuity right for Hidden Years, and not for this? 
<<<

Because Hidden Years was the perfect project for John Byrne. He wanted to do comics the 70's way, and that's what he did in Hidden Years. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the Hell out of Hidden Years. Great series. But comparing Hidden Years to First Class isn't going to get First Class declared non-canon.

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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02 Apr 2007 01:57 pm 
By Ocean Doot

Couple things that Im not sure have been addressed/resolved in this thread: 

1) The Dr. Strange issue of First Class thats a sequel to X-Men #33  thats the same one in which Bobby says something like, wow, Greenwich Village is cool, we should hang here more often. Even placing each issue of FC in a different part of continuity doesnt account for that discrepancy within a single issue. By the time of X-Men #33, Bobby and Hank were Greenwich Village regulars. 

2) This is a major problem, in my eyes: Now, Ive only skimmed the most recent issue, but in it I saw them refer to Mastermind as Jason Wyngarde. Now, the Magnus/Magneto thing may not be a problem, but Im pretty sure its a major plot point of The Dark Phoenix Saga that nobody knows that Jason Wyngarde and Mastermind are the same dude. 

If this is a canon series, then thats a major and obvious blunder. 

2 and a half) (Also, to Jason Doty: How can any issue be placed between X-Men #11 and X-Men #12? Issue 11 ends on a cliffhanger (Cerebro screeching in reaction to the Juggernaut) thats picked up immediately in issue 12.)

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02 Apr 2007 03:32 pm 
By Somebody
Director

(1) was brought up - it's an error, no two ways about it, but it's not one worth throwing a series out over. 

(2)... (2)... yeah, Jean refers to the Mastermind statue as "the Jason Wyngarde paperweight." What I'm NOT sure about is whether that contradicts the DPS or not, and I don't have those issues to hand to check. 

IIRC, at no point do any of the X-Men see Wyngarde until they're captured - except Phoenix, but that's only in its' "flashbacks" to a couple of hundred years ago with it as "Lady Jean Grey" and him as her 'husband', and confused as it is - it thinks it's actually time-travelling - that doesn't matter per se. Then, after Phoenix "wakes up" with Scott's "death", it burns Wyngarde out fairly quickly and he's irrelevant. 

The only bit that might be contradicted therefore is Scott fighting Wyngarde on the astral plane/in the white void. And there, of course, Wyngarde's appearing with the handsome look rather than his real face which Scott would recognise as well. Anyone got that issue to hand to see if there is a problem?

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02 Apr 2007 04:04 pm 
By Ocean Doot

"IIRC, at no point do any of the X-Men see Wyngarde until they're captured." 

IIRC, you do not RC. Cyclops and Jean see Jason Wyngarde in the disco when they're looking for Dazzler. Jean and Jason kiss passionately, and Scott gets jealous. He's referred to explicitly as Jason Wyngarde in that sequence, and Scott says, "For some reason, that guy rubs me the wrong way." 

Which makes the reader go, "Hmm, could it be the fact that he just frenched your girlfriend, Scott?" But after First Class, the question becomes, "Hmmm, could it be because he has the same name as an old villain of yours with the power to cast illusions?" 

Besides, even if it was just Jean who heard the name, that still matters. She has visions of herself marrying a guy with the same name as Mastermind and assumes not that it's an illusion cast by Mastermind, but that she's time-traveling? That requires a lot of stupidity on Phoenix's part. 

"The only bit that might be contradicted therefore is Scott fighting Wyngarde on the astral plane/in the white void." 

No, that part wouldn't be contradicted -- it takes place *after* the Mastermind reveal. 

"Anyone got that issue to hand to see if there is a problem?" 

Honestly, I don't need to, I remember the whole thing. The Scott/Jean/Jason-at-the-disco thing is the major point of contention. And that occurs before the bit with the silhouette (where the narration tells us that lots of tragedy could've been avoided if Scott had noticed that Wyngarde cast Mastermind's shadow). 

So there ya go: Explicit reference to the fact that the story would've gone different had they known then that it was Mastermind behind it all. And they *would've* known that if they knew his name was "Jason Wyngarde." 

Of course, alternatively, you can just write off the use of the name in First Class as a mistake... like the Greenwich Village thing. Personally, for me, I was on the fence about X:FC for the first 6 issues. -- But the Mastermind thing really bugs me (obviously).

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Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:07 pm 
By Lucifer

The Jaso Wyngarde thing is a problem. Just checked the issues. 

In 122 Jean is shopping in Stornoway. She runs in to Jason. He introduces himself as jason Wyngarde. This is before any of the 'flashbacks'. 
Later Jean's thinking about Jason Wyngarde and says she feels "a sense of deja vu". 

In 126 Jean wakes up and mentions Jason, shocking Cyclops. But Cyclops shows no sign of actually recognizing the name. Just shocked his girlfriend whispers another man's name upon waking up. 

In 130 Jean runs into Jason again. He again mentions his name and refers to their 'first' meeting in Stornoway in 122. This is followed by another 'flashback'. 

In 132 the X-Men are checking out the hellfire Club by visiting. Jason Wyngarde is there and takes Jean out of Cyclops arms for a dance. (This is of course before the X-Men are captured by the Hellfire club). Cyclops is thinking he doesn't like Jason Wyngarde, he doesn't trust him. The next page he finds out Jason Wyngarde is Mastermind and the word balloon shows he's shocked. 


Edit: and Ocean Doot says basically the same while I was typing this. Oh well.

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Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:12 pm 
By Ocean Doot

"In 122 Jean is shopping in Stornoway. She runs in to Jason. He introduces himself as jason Wyngarde. " 

Good call, Lucifer. Forgot about that!

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Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:25 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Okay... I see I'm going to need to dig Essential X-Men v2 out. 

My main concern, based on what has been said, is whether Scott hears the full name attached to Mr Moustache-and-sideburns before the reveal. Phoenix is being comprehensively mind-%^&"ed at this point from the moment it meets Mastermind, so I can buy it "forgetting" Jean's knowledge of this, but if Scott's disturbed by the thing - for obvious reasons - and he's in a position to put two and two together before the reveal, that's an issue. Given that it's a throwaway remark in XMFC7 that's at stake, it's not something I'd throw the series out over, but it's really something I'd prefer to find an explanation for...

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Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:32 pm 
By Lucifer

In 132 Scott is thinking about Jason. Can't do an exact quote, just have a translated edition of this comic. 

But translating it back there is this sentence: "That's Jason Wyngarde." That is what Scott thinks when Jason dances with Jean. 

He continues to think: "I don't like that Jason Wyngarde, and it's not jalousy." 

Next page he is shocked to find out it is Mastermind. 


Edit: Forgot to say. He also thinks about that Jean told him about the flashbacks and Jason being in them. Once again using the name Jason Wyngarde.'

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Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:49 pm 
By Jason Doty

>>>
Also, to Jason Doty: How can any issue be placed between X-Men #11 and X-Men #12? Issue 11 ends on a cliffhanger (Cerebro screeching in reaction to the Juggernaut) thats picked up immediately in issue 12.)
<<<

That was a basic jumping on point, Move them between UX 13 and A 16. 

My basic point with this to try and keep them as early as possible, because Quicksilver & the Scarlet Witch didn't appear affiliated with the Avengers and Mastermind has to be turned back to normal prior to somewhere in the UX 30's. 

I mean as I broke them appart, the discrepencies became less blatent. One of DHall's problems was the "Blackbird" and it appears wrecked in the Thor story. So, it was mentioned, used, then broke. Still leaving the X-Men with transportation problems that was an element of contention. 

Like I said, a basic jumping on point that we can tweek.

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Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:18 pm 
By Ocean Doot

"My main concern, based on what has been said, is whether Scott hears the full name attached to Mr Moustache-and-sideburns before the reveal." 

He does, in issue 130, I'm sure of it. Two issues before the reveal. 

"Phoenix is being comprehensively mind-%^&"ed at this point from the moment it meets Mastermind, so I can buy it "forgetting" Jean's knowledge of this, but if Scott's disturbed by the thing - for obvious reasons - and he's in a position to put two and two together before the reveal, that's an issue." 

I'm being comprehensively mind-$@$%ed by your constantly referring to Phoenix as "it."  

But seriously, it's completely an error. If the X-Men know of the "Jason Wyngarde" name, then for Dark Phoenix to work one has to accept that: 

1.) part of Mastermind's "mind-$#@!" is to dampen or wipe out her memory of the name -- rather than just, say, tell her his name is something else. 

2.) even if my memory is failing me and Scott never heard Jason's last name on-panel before the reveal, we also have to buy that Phoenix never told Scott, off-panel, the name of the guy she met in Scotland and who's appearing in her "timeslips." (Why wouldn't she tell him?) 

If First Class is canon, then First Class is in error. 

See, Somebody, this is why I shouldn't read X-Men comics anymore. 

			*	*	*

Mon Apr 02, 2007 6:40 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
I mean as I broke them appart, the discrepencies became less blatent. 
<<<

The plot discrepancies become less blatant if you rip it apart,but I find other types of discrepancies to be just as jarring, and given that comic books are a visual media, I see no reason to ignore the evidence that I can see on panel, in favor of only looking at plot discrepancies.

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Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:36 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Does the Emma Frost series -- where she's shown using a cellphone and a computer back in the time period of the original X-Men -- strike you as particularly non-canon? 

-Jeph!

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Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:14 pm 
By Mikhail

Something I didn't see mentioned in this thread -- hasn't Jean used her telepathy in First Class? Wouldn't that prevent any issue of the series from being before X-Men #40?

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Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:17 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
strike you as particularly non-canon?
<<<

Nope, those can be written off due to the sliding timescale. No further excuses, or explanations needed. 

That's a bit different than what we're seeing in first class, where Xavier has access to very different technology than in the original series, and people have to keep coming up with outlandish fan theories to cobble things together.

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Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:31 pm 
By Dhall

How in First Class issue 7, do Warren and Hank use Cerebro to scan for Quicksilver. Didn't Kitty have to modify Cerebro at one point so that non-telepaths could use it?

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Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:37 pm 
By Jason Doty

>>>
Something I didn't see mentioned in this thread -- hasn't Jean used her telepathy in First Class? Wouldn't that prevent any issue of the series from being before X-Men #40?
<<<

In issue no.6, in one panel, Jean appears to talk to Warren saying for him to lead the monster this way. It could just as easily been a shout. 

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Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:40 pm 
By Dhall

In issue no.6, in one panel,

Issue1, she tries to use telepathy against the plants, but her efforts fail. 
"I can't make it spit him out - It's will is really strong." she says, with her hands pressed up to her head....

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Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:01 pm 
By Jason Doty

>>>
Issue1, she tries to use telepathy against the plants, but her efforts fail. 
"I can't make it spit him out - It's will is really strong." she says, with her hands pressed up to her head....
<<<

This could just as easily be telekinetics, but you are right David, this series is riddled with many mistakes and for every one you point out we'll keep trying to justify it, but in the end it's all little things. 

I must point out though, as fan chronologists of the Marvel U, we should be trying to incorperate rather than exclude. With a stable of artists and writers, some just aren't going to be as good as others and mistakes are going to always happen. 

Marvel promoted this as "In continuity tales," the writer said they are, and half of us are trying to get them in. Lets put our energy in the right direction. 

I mean at the very least, at least Marvel is revisiting gone by eras, with Deadly Genesis, Avengers Classic, the Illuminati, and others.

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Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:38 pm 
By Dhall

In the spirit of Jason's post, Let's examine the X-Men series. 

Since in First Class, Xavier is with the team, or noted as out-of-town in each issue, we have to use his availability to place any FC issues. 

That's not too much of a problem in issues 1-31, or is it? <evil grin> 

Issue 32 leads directly into issue 33 with no gap. In issue 33, Xavier is taken prisoner by Factor Three, and is a prisoner, through issue 39, where he is rescued. Xavier appears in issue 40, but then 'dies in issue 41-42' of course that's really the Changeling, but the point is that Xavier doesn't appear again until issue 65-66, at which point Alex and Lorna are at the school. 

That means that FC, if it was canon, would have to be placed between issues 1-31, or between 39 and 40. I believe there's no argument about anything I've just posted above, yes? 

Less well known is Jean's college career: 

Jean is a student at Metro College between issue 24 and 34, and is not available for classes at Xavier's. In fact she leaves the X-men all together at the end of issue 23, and only returns to the team in issue 27, while still attending Metro. 

This rules out any FC issues that involve Jean going to class, between 24 and 34. 

So the X-Men's classes as seen in FC would have to occur between issues 1-21, as 22-23 are a two-parter, and Jean leaves the school in 23 (though her actual departure is at the beginning of issue 24.) 

The reason she left Xavier's "Mom and Dad feel that, since we formally graduated some time ago, It's time I pursued a college degree - Elsewhere!" 

It's clear that Jean's parents didn't think much of the post high school studies at Xavier's School. Her father is a professor at Bard College (where Xavier went to school.) 

Also note that Jean is starting at Metro for summer session, this isn't a topical reference, as the Human Torch would be returning for Fall (regular school year) session. 

So lets examine issues 1-21: 

Between issue 4-5, Xavier is pretending to have lost his powers, so any apps. where he is using them in front of the X-Men cannot go here. 

Issue 6 - Jean gets her 'pointy mask' which then goes missing until issue 27. 

Issue 7- Xavier leaves Scott in charge, when he goes on a secret mission. He is out-of-town until issue 10, through he is rejoined by the team in issue 9 to fight Lucifer. So any FC apps. with Xavier cannot go between 7 and 9. 

Certain issues have continuing stories, and thus cannot have other apps. placed between them: 

Issues 11-13 
14-18 
and 20-21 all have this problem. 

So this leaves us with the following placements available: 

Between 1 and 4, between 5 and 7, 7-9 only for non-Xavier stories, 
9-11, between 13 and 14, between 18 and 19, between 19 and 20, and if necessary between 39 and 40 (though this is hardly the early days of the x-men.) 

This is the brief time period that some want to put a mini-series, one-shot special, and an ongoing series into! And none of the issues are in order! Sheesh!

Last edited by Dhall on Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:57 pm, edited 4 times in total. 

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Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:16 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Yay! A rough frame-work to work in! 

Thanks, Dave!

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:25 pm 
By Dhall

A Note on the issue 39-40 break follows: 

At the end of issue 39, Jean reveals the new costumes, and tells the others that it was Xavier's idea for her to make new costumes. (And that she was making them right before the adventure with the Juggernaut in issues 32-33) 

Xavier then gives his impassioned speech "The X-Men are hardly children anymore! They've each proved themselves a hundred times in Deadly Combat! It's time they looked like like Individuals - Not products of an assembly line!" 

So reading that speech, I find it a very odd idea to place anything, where the X-Men are not in their individual costumes, between issues 39 and 40. 

Given that the whole idea of individual X-Men costumes was Xavier's idea, it seems a bit of a weird thing to do.

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Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:27 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
Yay! A rough frame-work to work in!

Thanks, Dave!
<<<

You're welcome, I edited my post a couple times, to tighten up the time frame. :)

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Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:30 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I tend to take impassioned speeches from 60's Marvel comics with a grain of salt. Every speech was impassioned back then.  

Aside from that, there's Paul B's theory about something being wrong with the individual suits and having to fall back on the 2.0s for a mission or so. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
You're welcome, I edited my post a couple times, to tighten up the time frame. 
Cool. 
<<<

And for the issues out of order thing, the writer said they don't take place in publication order. Not 'you can take them out of order if you want,' but rather 'they aren't in publication order.' So that's not a issue."Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:46 pm 
By Dhall

A few odds and ends, in issue 7 the X-Men graduate. Xavier tells Bobby that he has diplomas for them "which testify that you've successfully completed your normal prep school curriculum - as indeed you have done." 

Xavier then picks Scott as team leader, and introduces him to Cerebro, for the first time! Guess those FC issues aren't going between 1 and 7... 

Scott is the only person who is to share Xavier's secret, he is not to let the rest of the X-Men know about Cerebro. 

Cerebro is explicitly a device for locating mutants, and has 'wires.' 
So seriously does Scott take his duty, that he stays at the mansion, while everyone else goes to enjoy themselves. 

Hank and Bobby start haning out in Greenwich village in this issue at the Coffee A Go Go, and meet Zelda, whom Bobby starts flirting with as soon as he meets her. (Thought he's clearly been here a few times, but not as a regular. He already knows Zelda's name.) 

Note the coffee shop, is not named in this issue, but is in issue 14, it's next appearance. 

in issue 11, Xavier uses a radar-image beam to project the appearance of a new mutant, and to detect mutants. This is distinct from Cerbero, which he and Scott use later in the issue, and they detect Juggernaut. 

The X-Men don't actually learn about Cerebro until issue 12, meaning no FC before #12! 

That leaves us between 13 and 14, between 18 and 19, between 19 and 20, and if necessary between 39 and 40. 

13 and 14 are out, the male X-Men are injured, and in sick bed. They are still receiving therapy at the beginning of issue 14. This involves crutches, etc. 

That's three places left folks.....for an eight issue min, and special, and an ongoing...... 


By 18 Bobby and Zelda are dating steadily enough for them to double with Hank, and Vera (who makes her first app.) 

In issue 20, Xavier installs the new Cerebro to replace the one Magneto destroyed, so no Cerebro between 18 and 20. 

That leaves the only spot for FC to take place (and include Cerebro) as 39-40, which is the least likeliest of spots! 

Mind you a non-Cerebro issue might still go between 18 and 19, or 19 and 20. 

I will do more analysis tomorrow.....

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Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:53 am 
By Jason Doty

There could be one more slot in a place I actually argued against sometime ago. I believe there was a gap created between the pages at the end of UX no.11. 

Edit: Just thought of this, why not between UX 21 and 22. Also, thanks to DHall for putting the energy into trying to make this work. I also do not like having to put anything between UX 39 and 40, but that continuity glitch with Dr. Strange, just can't be worked any other way.

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Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:55 am 
By Ocean Doot

Xavier then picks Scott as team leader, and introduces him to Cerebro, for the first time! Guess those FC issues aren't going between 1 and 7... 

I agree. Also, Iceman is still snowy until issue 8. Hes always icy in First Class. 

13 and 14 are out, the male X-Men are injured, and in sick bed. They are still receiving therapy at the beginning of issue 14. This involves crutches, etc. 

Id be inclined to agree with you personally, but I dont think the MCP does. From Icemans chronology: 

UX 13 
XMF 3 
FF@ 3 
MARVELS 2 (32) 
M/H&L '96 
FF@ 3 
UX 14 

So there already is a gap between issues 13 and 14. Looks like thats still eligible. 

Scott is the only person who is to share Xavier's secret, he is not to let the rest of the X-Men know about Cerebro. ... The X-Men don't actually learn about Cerebro until issue 12, meaning no FC before #12! 

I dont agree here. The X-Mens knowledge (or lack thereof) is played inconsistently in the first twelve issues. Even though there are mentions in issues 7 and 12 that Cerebro is a secret to all but Charles and Scott, issue 10 has Professor X talking un-secretively about Cerebro to all the X-Men. And since its not something that affects plot, Id suggest ignoring any references to Cerebro being secret. In which case, that would open up TWO other places to put First Class issues: Between X-Men 9 and 10; and also between X-Men 10 and 11. 

"Just thought of this, why not between UX 21 and 22?' 

Agreed, unless one wants to get very nitpicky and point out that line of dialogue in X-Men 22 about how 

two of their most recent adventures involved giant robots (referring to the Sentinels in X-Men 14-16 and Lucifers robots in X-Men 20-21). Not a huge deal, but I suppose it depends on ones definition of recent... 

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Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:38 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
13 and 14 are out, the male X-Men are injured, and in sick bed. They are still receiving therapy at the beginning of issue 14. This involves crutches, etc. 
Id be inclined to agree with you personally, but I dont think the MCP does. From Icemans chronology: 
UX 13 
XMF 3 
FF@ 3 
MARVELS 2 (32) 
M/H&L '96 
FF@ 3 
UX 14 

So there already is a gap between issues 13 and 14. Looks like thats still eligible. 
<<<

The gap was placed there by the Official Marvel Indexes, so another explanation for the injuries seen in UX 14 will have to suffice. And it's a good thing the gap is there, because that's where X:FC 7 will have to go. That comic obviously gets placed between UX 13 and A 16. 

The problem with this, of course, is that MARVEL SAGA established that A 16 occurs before UX 13! That chronological review of early Marvel history covered A 16 in issue #19 and UX 13 in issue #21. SAGA didn't skip back and forth in time; it was a straight chronology. So if X:FC 7 is canonical, we'll have to reconfigure the order of events at the point in MU history. 

Makes you wonder how much checking of their own reference works Marvel creators consult when writing and editing continuity implants. Ah, we all know the answer to that.

Paul B.

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Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:25 pm 
By Dhall

Keep in mind that between 13 and 14, while the X-Men are recuperating, the appearance that is between them is the X-Men attending a wedding. So yeah, you could place something in here, as long as it's not an issue where Xavier is sending them into combat....

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Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:30 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
I dont agree here. The X-Mens knowledge (or lack thereof) is played inconsistently in the first twelve issues. Even though there are mentions in issues 7 and 12 that Cerebro is a secret to all but Charles and Scott, issue 10 has Professor X talking un-secretively about Cerebro to all the X-Men. And since its not something that affects plot, Id suggest ignoring any references to Cerebro being secret. In which case, that would open up TWO other places to put First Class issues: Between X-Men 9 and 10; and also between X-Men 10 and 11. 
<<<

You are misreading issue 10. There are several mentions of Cerebro being a secret, and in 12, it's a complete surprise to the rest of the team. 

In 10 the other X-Men are in the room it's true, but it's pretty clear that Xavier is only talking, probably whispering to Scott about the Cerebro machine. In any case, the team are NOT shown the machine, so even if they learn the name Cerebro, they have clearly NEVER seen it before in 12. 

BY the way, and this is an important point to me, Cerebro is clearly established many times, as being small machine attached to Professor Xavier's desk, in his private office. 

I don't see how Cerebro could be a large room sized machine NOT in Xavier's private office, as is shown in FC. 

Also established is that Cerebro makes a loud noise whenever it detects a mutant.

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Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:46 pm 
By Dhall

I've already pointed out that between 18 and 20, Cerebro is being replaced by Xavier who is installing a new one. 

Between 20 and 21 will not either, as at the end of issue 20, the X-Men are on board a plane (not a Blackbird) which leads directly into issue 21, and their encounter with Lucifer. 
Between 21 and 22 might work. 

To recap: The X-Men (besides Scott) only learn about Cerebro in issue 12. 

you can put something between 13-14, but it would be very much out of place, if you had Xavier ordering the team into battle at this point. (R&R type appearance sure) 

Between 18 and 19, or 19 and 20 are ok, BUT no Cerebro during this time. 

21 and 22, seem ok. 

39 and 40, as a last resort, as this is the worst spot for the FC costumes to go. 

That's really not much time to stick all of these issues in.

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Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:14 pm 
By Jason Doty

>>>
And it's a good thing the gap is there, because that's where X:FC 7 will have to go. That comic obviously gets placed between UX 13 and A 16. 
<<<

Not necessarily, all the issues except the Dr. Strange one, could fit between UX 21 and UX 22 and meet everyones criteria. Just because they don't mention the Avengers does not mean they didn't reasonly join. We would have to place Quicksilver, the Scarlet Witch, and the Thor appearance in a break between A 16 and UX 27.

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Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:12 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
Cerebro is clearly established many times, as being small machine attached to Professor Xavier's desk, in his private office. 
<<<

A control panel for Cerebro is in Xavier's desk. The rest of it is somewhere else. 

In Uncanny 7, the 'guts' of Cerebro are in the 'off-limits' section of the school and it looks like a floating egg with legs and all kinds of wires and things coming out of it.(Otherwise known as 'Kirbytech') Elsewhere, possibly the same room, possibly in another room, is a large cabinet with a control panel on it. Xavier says, while he's pointing at the cabinet, that wires lead to his office, transmitting the data. So yes, there's a control panel for Cerebro on Xavier's desk. But there's another control panel somewhere else. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
I don't see how Cerebro could be a large room sized machine NOT in Xavier's private office, as is shown in FC. 
<<<

Going just by Uncanny 7, Cerebro itself is somewhere else, and the monitor/control panel is in Xavier's office. Who's to say how many control panels there are throughout the mansion? It's just that Chuck liked using the one in his desk, more often than not. Also, just because the 'big room' isn't mentioned in the Uncanny issues doesn't mean there isn't one. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Also established is that Cerebro makes a loud noise whenever it detects a mutant.
<<<

It's easy enough to change the 'noise' setting. Maybe Xavier just liked it loud.  


Dhall wrote:
>>>
I've already pointed out that between 18 and 20, Cerebro is being replaced by Xavier who is installing a new one. 
<<<

That has always confused me. Cerebro was wrecked in issue 18, but Xavier uses Cerebro in issue 19 to see if Mimick is a mutant.(My Cerebro machine registers negative!) Then in issue 20, he's installing a new Cerebro.(an editor's caption reminds us that Magneto damaged Cerebro in issue 18)

So even though Cerebro was damaged by Magneto in Uncanny 18, Xavier has a working one in Uncanny 19. He's then installing/upgrading/whatevering one in Uncanny 20. I say ignore the editor's caption in Uncanny 20, because the editor's caption contradicts Uncanny 19. That would open up appearances for Cerebro between these issues, if we needed Cerebro to be looking for mutants. If not, it's only teaching class in First Class otherwise.


Jason Doty wrote:
>>>
Just because they don't mention the Avengers does not mean they didn't reasonly join. We would have to place Quicksilver, the Scarlet Witch, and the Thor appearance in a break between A 16 and UX 27.
<<<

Meh. I agree that X: FC 7 should be placed before QS & SW join the Avengers.

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:42 am 
By Dhall

Hmmn, for FC to be canon, we still have to rewrite Marvel Saga, and throw the Dark Phoenix saga out of continuity, oh and admit that Lee, Kirby, etc. got Cerebro completely wrong....madness I say!

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:57 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jason Doty wrote: 
>>>
Just because they don't mention the Avengers does not mean they didn't reasonly join. We would have to place Quicksilver, the Scarlet Witch, and the Thor appearance in a break between A 16 and UX 27.
<<<

In X:FC 7, the X-Men speculate on what Quicksilver is doing at Xavier's School. Beast says, "What would spying on us yield? Unless the Brotherhood is back together somehow." They go on to review the fate of the Brotherhood and speculate about the likelihood of their re-forming. If this story occurs after A 16, wouldn't the X-Men have associated Pietro and Wanda with the Avengers, not the Brotherhood? As in, "I've heard that Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are with the Avengers now. Do you suppose this has anything to do with them?" 


Come to think of it, where did Pietro get that blue and white costume? He didn't wear that until A 75. He should have been depicted in classic green and white in X:FC 7. Explanations: artistic error; Pietro had this costume for a long time before A 75 but chose to wear it on rare occasions (mostly BTS); Xavier was so enamored of whipping up new costumes he decided to make one for Pietro. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:30 am 
By Jason Doty

>>>
In X:FC 7, the X-Men speculate on what Quicksilver is doing at Xavier's School. Beast says, "What would spying on us yield? Unless the Brotherhood is back together somehow." They go on to review the fate of the Brotherhood and speculate about the likelihood of their re-forming. If this story occurs after A 16, wouldn't the X-Men have associated Pietro and Wanda with the Avengers, not the Brotherhood? As in, "I've heard that Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are with the Avengers now. Do you suppose this has anything to do with them?"
<<<

I don't think the X-Men knew about Quicksilver & Scarlet Witch, Xavier is still trying to recruit them in UX 27, when they announce it to him. Quicksilver's uniform is a coloring error or he had it prior to A 75, but did'nt wear it.

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:05 am 
By Ocean Doot

"You are misreading issue 10." 

In 10 the other X-Men are in the room it's true, but it's pretty clear that Xavier is only talking, probably whispering to Scott about the Cerebro machine." 

You know, if you want to disagree with me, that's fine. But please don't tell me I'm "misreading" the issue. It is not "clear" that Xavier is "only talking, probably whispering to Scott" in the dialogue in issue 10. You're reading it that way to make it all work (No-Prize for you!), and that's fine, but -- honestly. I'm not an idiot. 

"There are several mentions of Cerebro being a secret," 

I never said there wasn't. I said it's played inconsistently, and that Cerebro being a secret doesn't affect the plot of any of the issues, so it doesn't matter. 

"and in 12, it's a complete surprise to the rest of the team." 

I'll have to request that you refresh me. All I remember is Scott saying, "Don't come in here, Cerebro is a secret!" and Xavier saying, "No, Scott, there can be no secrets among us now" or some-such. Which is dialogue that I find laughable, personally ... the whole "Cerebro secret" is such a complete red herring in my eyes. Stan Lee obviously didn't care that much about it. 

What do others think about this issue? Because if the Cerebro-secret stuff isn't a problem, that opens up two slots -- both before and after issue 10. (And I believe there's LOTS of time implied as having passed between issues 9 and 10 -- like, several months at least.) 

"Keep in mind that between 13 and 14, while the X-Men are recuperating, the appearance that is between them is the X-Men attending a wedding. So yeah, you could place something in here, as long as it's not an issue where Xavier is sending them into combat...." 

What is that "XMF 3" thing? Is that a new adventure, or just an epilogue to the Juggernaut battle? Just curious, I genuinely don't know.

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:08 am 
By Ocean Doot

Oh, another reason to argue for some of the issues of First Class going in a gap before or after issue 10 of the original series: 

Issue 6 of First Class, the one with the Skrulls, has a bit in which the X-Men speculate on who's impersonating them. Their first thought is that it's "the Brotherhood." That would suggest the issue goes somewhere before issue 11 of the original series, when the Brotherhood broke up.

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:50 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
What is that "XMF 3" thing? Is that a new adventure, or just an epilogue to the Juggernaut battle? Just curious, I genuinely don't know.
<<<

X-Men Forever 3. In this series, Jean is mentally time jumping betwee different time periods. 

There is a scene where Jean sleeps in, then is awoken by Xavier telling her she is late for class. She comes down to the Danger Room, where Xavier is putting the team through their paces. Note that everyone has the correct costumes.... 
Xavier says "--Recuperated enough from your injuries to perform at a higher level-" 
She is trying to figure out what time period this is, then remembers that it must have been just after their initial encounter with the Juggernaut, judging from the way the boys are favoring their injuries. 

Xavier says "Expect a Better performance Once you have fully recovered from your injuries. Class is dismissed." 

Clear evidence of Xavier's concern over the team's injuries, published as recently as 2001.

Last edited by Dhall on Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:53 pm 
By Dhall

Ocean Doot, sorry if my choice of words offended you. 

I'll quote from issue 12: 

Iceman: "Professor! We heard that blood-curdling noise! What's wrong are you in danger?" 
Beast: "The Sound is emanating from his desk! There's some sort of Electronic apparatus secreted within." 
Angel:" My Ears! The Screetch is deafening! What is it!" 
Marvel Girl : (thought balloon) "I've never seen Professor X look so desperately fearful before." 
Cyclops: "STAY OUT, All of you! No one is supposed to know about the Professor's CEREBRO MACHINE!" (all caps, in the original source material.) 

Professor Xavier: "I'ts all right, Cyclops! Let them Enter! We're about to face OUR MOST DEADLY THREAT! We can have no secrets from each other now!" 


Page 2: Panel 1: Beast: "What is it Professor? What danger do we face? and what does CEREBRO mean?" 

Professor Xavier: "Its the only machine of it's kind in existence! It gives warning of any mutant menace which may be near!" 


Clearly the other four X-Men did not know about Cerebro before issue 12. 
The Beast has to ask what does Cerebro mean? 

Also clearly if this is "the only machine of it's kind in existence" he doesn't have another one stashed in the sub-basement, as some people have suggested....

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:13 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
I don't think the X-Men knew about Quicksilver & Scarlet Witch, Xavier is still trying to recruit them in UX 27, when they announce it to him. 
<<<

Jason, wasn't Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch joining the Avengers made public at a press conference in Avengers 16? 

Yes, Iron Man announces the new line-up, then they go out in public.... 

Surely Xavier already knows they've joined the Avengers. He's a very well-informed fellow.

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:13 pm 
By Ocean Doot

Dhall, 

Thanks for posting that. I guess my point still remains, though, that 

1.) Issue 10 mistakenly has Professor X talking about Cerebro when they're all in the room. Or, alternately, issue 10 has it right and the dialogue in issue 12 is the mistake. 

2.) What exactly is altered by the plot of the Juggernaut story if we take First Class as a ret-con that says the X-Men found out about Cerebro sometime before issue 12? Wouldn't the X-Men still have come running in to find out why Cerebro was screeching? 

Although, again I wonder if anyone else cares about this particular point of contention other than you and me at this juncture. 

			*	*	*

Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:15 pm 
By Ocean Doot

"Surely Xavier already knows they've joined the Avengers. He's a very well-informed fellow." 

Yeah, I'd agree. The dialogue in issue 27 never made it sound to me like Professor Xavier didn't know they weren't in the Avengers. I think he was just hoping they might be interested in switching to a different team.

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:30 pm 
By Dhall

Paul B. writes 
>>>
The gap was placed there by the Official Marvel Indexes, so another explanation for the injuries seen in UX 14 will have to suffice. And it's a good thing the gap is there, because that's where X:FC 7 will have to go. That comic obviously gets placed between UX 13 and A 16.
<<<

Paul, In this gap between 13 and 14, we have XMF 3 where Xavier mentions (twice) the team's in juries, and Jean makes reference to them, and Reed and Sue's wedding. 

"another explanation for the injuries seen in UX 14 will have to suffice." 
This won't work, as in UX 14 Scott states " I was afraid my attack upon Juggernaut had strained my powers beyond repair." 

Also, Xavier refers to their emergency therapy...<just thought I'd throw that in for what it's worth....> 

Xavier: "Angel you may now remove your harness, and Practice natural flight." 
and to Hank, who is on crutches "And you may begin exercising your feet again." "You may dispense with the crutches now Hank." 

So we're talking about bad injuries here, if the Angel hasn't been able to practice natural flight in this time period, and Hank is on crutches.

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:28 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
Although, again I wonder if anyone else cares about this particular point of contention other than you and me at this juncture.
<<<

Ocean Doot, 
I doubt that anyone else besides you and I does care.

For me anyway the Beast's line in 12. "... and what does CEREBRO mean?"
kind of makes it clear that he has no idea what Cerebro is.


>>>
What exactly is altered by the plot of the Juggernaut story
<<<

Well the fact that they came into the room, wondering what was going on, why we'd have to throw #12 out of canon. 

Not a problem since we already have to toss out Dark Phoenix.... :) 

On an unrelated note, Scott's Nickname is Slim, but he sure looks a bit muscular in FC, in fact everyone does. Funny that.....

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:44 pm 
By Jason Doty

The FF Wedding occurs between pages of UX 14 because of Marvels no.2.

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:13 pm 
By Jason Doty

>>>
Yeah, I'd agree. The dialogue in issue 27 never made it sound to me like Professor Xavier didn't know they weren't in the Avengers. I think he was just hoping they might be interested in switching to a different team.
<<<

If he knew there would be no reason for them to explain it to him. They would have said " As you know, we are with the Avengers now."

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:33 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
the fact that they came into the room, wondering what was going on, why we'd have to throw #12 out of canon. 

Not a problem since we already have to toss out Dark Phoenix....
<<<

Okay, stop it. You're not helping people take your points seriously when you make statements like this. 

As for your contention above that, since Xavier says that Cerebro is the only machine of its kind, obviously there isn't "another one" in the basement -- well, nobody's SAYING that there's another one in the basement. They're saying that Cerebro is wired into the house all over the place -- including Xavier's desk. They've pointed out that, in the original comics, Cerebro was in another room and had wires leading out into the walls. Meaning, it's all one big machine, wired throughout the house. Not "two separate machines". 

So arguing that "there can't possibly be two machines" is sort of pointless, since nobody's contending that there are. 

Also, the fact that the X-Men appear elsewhere in-between issues #13-14 is established in the Index -- making it official. If they're going to create a gap, regardless of how smoothly it works, we might as well try to use it. 

-Jeph!

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:51 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Ocean Doot wrote: 
>>>
I believe there's LOTS of time implied as having passed between issues 9 and 10 -- like, several months at least.
<<<

Not according to the Official Marvel Index to the X-Men #1, which states in the comments for UX 10 that "it has only been a week since the Lucifer adventure in the previous issue [UX 9]."


Jason Doty wrote:
>>>
If he knew there would be no reason for them to explain it to him. They would have said "As you know, we are with the Avengers now."
<<<

It's been well established that when Xavier approached Pietro and Wanda to ask them to join the X-Men in UX 27, they were not in the Avengers at the time, but were on a leave of absence from that team between A 30 and 36. See the Official Marvel Index to the X-Men #2 and the Official Marvel Index to the Avengers #2.Paul B.

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:35 pm 
By Jason Doty

Paul, 
This is becoming a no win situation. In trying to hit all of their key concerns, and placing this series between UX 21 and 22 we've now moved to nit-picking dialog. 

All I was suggesting was that Quicksilver and the Witch would then have to appear here between A 16 and UX 27, but now the argument has come down to did or did not the X-Men know about them being in the Avengers. No issue states whether they did or not, untill UX 27, when they told Xavier. 

And I always thought lack of evidence was not evidence.

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:41 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Ocean Doot wrote:
>>>
What do others think about this issue? Because if the Cerebro-secret stuff isn't a problem, that opens up two slots -- both before and after issue 10. (And I believe there's LOTS of time implied as having passed between issues 9 and 10 -- like, several months at least.)
<<<

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Not according to the Official Marvel Index to the X-Men #1, which states in the comments for UX 10 that "it has only been a week since the Lucifer adventure in the previous issue [UX 9]."
<<<

Was the passage of time mentioned in the issue or the index? Keep in mind, these were written without access to comics to be published in the future. If the indices state that X amount of time takes place between issues, that can always be taken with a grain of salt due to new information given by new comics. Of course, the indices were written with the rest of the Marvel Universe in mind, so that may be based on the passage of time mentioned in some other book. But still, there you go. 

Don't get me wrong, the Index is great, an excellent tool. But, especially in a case like this, it's only a guide to use. An extremely well put together guide, yes...


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Iceman: "Professor! We heard that blood-curdling noise! What's wrong are you in danger?" 
Beast: "The Sound is emanating from his desk! There's some sort of Electronic apparatus secreted within." 
Angel:" My Ears! The Screetch is deafening! What is it!" 
Marvel Girl : (thought balloon) "I've never seen Professor X look so desperately fearful before." 
Cyclops: "STAY OUT, All of you! No one is supposed to know about the Professor's CEREBRO MACHINE!" (all caps, in the original source material.) 

Professor Xavier: "I'ts all right, Cyclops! Let them Enter! We're about to face OUR MOST DEADLY THREAT! We can have no secrets from each other now!" 


Page 2: Panel 1: Beast: "What is it Professor? What danger do we face? and what does CEREBRO mean?" 

Professor Xavier: "Its the only machine of it's kind in existence! It gives warning of any mutant menace which may be near!" 


Clearly the other four X-Men did not know about Cerebro before issue 12. 
The Beast has to ask what does Cerebro mean?
<<<

Thats one interpretation: What does Cerebro mean? The other is: What does Cerebro mean? Whats the difference? 

This would be asking what does Cerebro mean by making such a racket? Instead of what does the word Cerebro mean? Then, Xavier is sarcastic by explaining what Cerebro does, Cyclops would be over protective of his special duty, and the other X-Men are just anxious over the loud setting Xavier set the controls at, which they may or may not have ever heard before. 

Same dialogue, two different interpretations. Whos to say what the right one is? 


Ocean Doot wrote:
>>>
Issue 6 of First Class, the one with the Skrulls, has a bit in which the X-Men speculate on who's impersonating them. Their first thought is that it's "the Brotherhood." That would suggest the issue goes somewhere before issue 11 of the original series, when the Brotherhood broke up.
<<<

Hey, good point. 


Ocean Doot wrote:
>>>
1.) Issue 10 mistakenly has Professor X talking about Cerebro when they're all in the room. Or, alternately, issue 10 has it right and the dialogue in issue 12 is the mistake.
<<<

Continuity wasnt the best in the 60s, as youve just pointed out. Stan has admitted as much over the years. Hell, hes forgotten characters names, let alone specific story elements. Theres also a different way to interpret the dialogue in issue 12


Ocean Doot wrote:
>>>
2.) What exactly is altered by the plot of the Juggernaut story if we take First Class as a ret-con that says the X-Men found out about Cerebro sometime before issue 12? Wouldn't the X-Men still have come running in to find out why Cerebro was screeching?
<<<

Nothing, and yes, respectively, in my view. 


Ocean Doot wrote:
>>>
Although, again I wonder if anyone else cares about this particular point of contention other than you and me at this juncture. 
<<<

Dhall wrote:
>>>
I doubt that anyone else besides you and I does care.
<<<

Well here I am, home from work.  Im also interested in others opinions on this. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
So we're talking about bad injuries here, if the Angel hasn't been able to practice natural flight in this time period, and Hank is on crutches.
<<<

Or, as Paul B. suggested, theyre recovering from other injuries suffered BTS, that just happen to be very similar to what was suffered previously. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
On an unrelated note, Scott's Nickname is Slim, but he sure looks a bit muscular in FC, in fact everyone does. Funny that.....
<<<

The Beast is far more muscular than any of the other male X-Men in First Class, just like he was in the Uncanny issues. Cyclops is more slim in comparison. Again Dave, youre grasping here. 


jephyork wrote:
>>>
So arguing that "there can't possibly be two machines" is sort of pointless, since nobody's contending that there are. 
<<<

Thanks, Jeph. Youve saved me from repeating myself. 


jephyork wrote:
>>>
Also, the fact that the X-Men appear elsewhere in-between issues #13-14 is established in the Index -- making it official. If they're going to create a gap, regardless of how smoothly it works, we might as well try to use it.
<<<

Exactly. 

Speaking of the indices, didnt they splice large amounts of time between pages and panels within issues to accommodate other books? Those would be possible places to put issues of First Class, and whos to say how much time passes in other spots not pointed out by the indices? Not my first choice, of course, but its an option.(and it doesnt make life easy for those of us using a calendar method it can throw a lot of things out of whack. I feel for you, Paul.) 

As for Mastermind's name and the Dark Phoenix Saga... it's very possible that Scott just forgot the guy's name. All kinds of whackos tried to kill him over the years, and it's not like Mastermind sticks in the head after being held captive on a living island, giant robots trying to kill you in Outer Space, your girlfriend surviving re-entering the atmosphere with no shielding and then a short hairy Candian hitting on her. I mean, there was a guy in junior high that tried to kick the crap out of me on a regular basis, and I honestly don't remember his name to save my life. 

If anything, Scott forgetting Mastermind's name adds a bit of humanity to the character, for me at least."

Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:43 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
Okay, stop it. You're not helping people take your points seriously when you make statements like this. 
<<<

Jeph, 
Did you not see the smiley at the end of that sentence? Can you not tell when someone is poking fun? I hope that no one is going to take a point seriously, if I put a smiley face on the end of the sentence. :)

And the fact that FC 7 shows that Scott and the others know perfectly well whom Jason Wyngarde is, DOES contradict the Dark Phoenix saga. Yes, that is a point from several pages ago, but that's why I was using it as a joke. Sheesh!!!!!


>>>
So arguing that "there can't possibly be two machines" is sort of pointless, since nobody's contending that there are. 
<<<

Why shouldn't I establish this, BEFORE someone does try to contend that there are?


>>>
well, nobody's SAYING that there's another one in the basement.
<<<

No, Not yet, they aren't. I'm just making that point, WHILE I have the comic open in front of me.


>>>
Also, the fact that the X-Men appear elsewhere in-between issues #13-14 is established in the Index -- making it official. If they're going to create a gap, regardless of how smoothly it works, we might as well try to use it. 
<<<

The index highly qualifies this gap, along the lines that I have suggested, that the X-Men are injured. 

From X-Men index v.1 Comment for issue 13: It takes two or three weeks for Cyclops, the Beast, Iceman, and Angel to recover fully from the battle in this story. Their therapy is interrupted when they, Professor X, and Marvel Girl attend the wedding of Reed Richards and Sue Storm in FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL #3. By then, the bandage is off the Beast's injured leg. Fortunately, the large number of super heroes at the wedding makes it unnecessary for the X-Men to be at their full fighting strength , which they are not until the beginning of the story in the next issue. 


My point is this, yes there is a gap between 13 and 14, but the X-Men are injured so badly, that it makes no sense for us to stick any story that has Xavier sending the team into battle during this gap. 

If you attempt to do so, you are ignoring numerous references in issue 13, XMF3, and issue 14, as well as the Comment in Index #1.

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:45 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Jason Doty wrote:
>>>
All I was suggesting was that Quicksilver and the Witch would then have to appear here between A 16 and UX 27, but now the argument has come down to did or did not the X-Men know about them being in the Avengers. No issue states whether they did or not, untill UX 27, when they told Xavier. 
<<<

I don't want to speak for him, but I think Paul B. gets what you're saying. I think that he, and I agree, that First Class 7 works better before they join the Avengers.

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:47 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Jason Doty wrote:
>>>
Paul, 
This is becoming a no win situation. In trying to hit all of their key concerns, and placing this series between UX 21 and 22 we've now moved to nit-picking dialog.

All I was suggesting was that Quicksilver and the Witch would then have to appear here between A 16 and UX 27, but now the argument has come down to did or did not the X-Men know about them being in the Avengers. No issue states whether they did or not, untill UX 27, when they told Xavier.
>>>

As I understand it, you were contending there was no evidence prior to X:FC 7 that the X-Men knew that Pietro and Wanda joined the Avengers, which is fair enough, as far as it goes. You then went on to buttress your opinion with a scene from UX 27, though, and that's where you're on thinner ice.


Jason Doty wrote:
>>>
And I always thought lack of evidence was not evidence.
<<<

I know you're not going to want to hear this, but you may find that the evidence is in the Index. 


watching: explorer

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:52 pm 
By Dhall

Col_Fury writes: 
>>>
If anything, Scott forgetting Mastermind's name adds a bit of humanity to the character, for me at least.
<<<

Scott, the guy who takes responsibility to the point where he won't leave the mansion to go out with the rest of the team, forget a villain's name? Doesn't sound much like Scott Summers to me.


>>>
Thats one interpretation: What does Cerebro mean? The other is: What does Cerebro mean? Whats the difference? 
<<<

You can parse any sentence any way you like. Beast had never heard of Cerebro before issue 12. 

and just as clear : Cyclops: "STAY OUT, All of you! No one is supposed to know about the Professor's CEREBRO MACHINE!" 

Cyclops clearly doesn't think the team knows about Cerebro in issue 12.

			*	*	*

Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:01 pm 
By Jason Doty

>>>
As I understand it, you were contending there was no evidence prior to X:FC 7 that the X-Men knew that Pietro and Wanda joined the Avengers, which is fair enough, as far as it goes. You then went on to buttress your opinion with a scene from UX 27, though, and that's where you're on thinner ice. 
<<<

No, their is no evidence that the X-Men knew they joined, one way or another in X:FC 7, but we do know that Xavier "is" informed in UX 27 that they are with the Avengers on panel. In adressing their other concerns I suggested moving it later. 

However, you are correct that I did not consult the various indexes.

			*	*	*

Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:13 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
Scott, the guy who takes responsibility to the point where he won't leave the mansion to go out with the rest of the team, forget a villain's name? Doesn't sound much like Scott Summers to me. 
<<<

Yup, that Scott. Just because he was protrayed as a one-dimensional, sometimes two-dimensional character throughout the 60's & 70's doesn't mean he can't have a three-dimensional moment now and then. Under the 'Scott forgot' interpretation, it actually shows a moment of fallibility for the character. I don't see anything wrong with that. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Cyclops clearly doesn't think the team knows about Cerebro in issue 12.
<<<

Or he's overreacting, and that the other X-Men didn't know there was a control panel in Xavier's desk.(which would be one of those two-dimensional moments, in this interpretation... 'No one's supposed to know about my secret responsibility with Cerebro!'... or somesuch) Stan himself botched that surprise by having Xavier talk about Cerebro in front of the other X-Men in issue 10. So, which issue do we go by? 10, which opens up other slots for First Class to go, or 12, which closes some?

Last edited by Col_Fury on Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:15 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

This thread is why I stick to reviewing Hulk and Daredevil.  Too many X-Men fans on this board, (and the 60's wasn't even the X-Men's best period)!Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:38 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
(and the 60's wasn't even the X-Men's best period)!
<<<

Hoo-boy, you said it!

I finally had a chance to look through Uncanny 10, and here's the dialogue in question:


Professor X wrote:
>>>
There is no need to concern yourselves, my X-Men! He is not a mutant!
<<<

Scott wrote:
>>>
But, sir... how can you be so certain??
MMM

Off Panel wrote:
>>>
Aww. It's been weeks since we've had a chance to use all our training!
<<<

(my guess is Iceman, but it could also be Angel, Beast, or Marvel Girl)

Professor X wrote:
>>>
If he were a true mutant, my sensitive Cerebro machine would have recorded his presence! Also I would have mentally sensed it! And yet...
<<<

(new panel)

Professor X wrote:
>>>
It is true that you've been inactive for weeks... and being young and adventurous, such a mission might be good for your morale! So... you may investigate the Antarctic wild man!
<<<

Warren wrote:
>>>
Thank you, Professor!
<<<

Hank wrote:
>>>
A mission at last!
<<<

Bobby wrote:
>>>
Hot Dog!
<<<

The way I'm reading this, Professor X is responding with his Cerebro comment to whoever spoke up off-panel. Therefore, Professor X is speaking openly about Cerebro to all of the X-Men, and that it identifies mutants. 

The comments about inactivity could mean there have been no adventures for 'weeks,' or not having been sent on any missions for 'weeks.' Either way, it doesn't really matter much.(sorry Paul!)

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Thu Apr 05, 2007 12:16 am 
By SeanCurtin

How about this: Xavier accidentally mentions Cerebro in UX 10, but, in their enthusiasm, the X-Men don't really notice Xavier saying that he has a device that could detect mutants - and since Xavier can use his own powers to do that on a limited level, they probably don't consider it that big a deal until he fully explains what Cerebro is and what it can do in UX 12. (That, or he wiped their memories to cover up his slip of the tongue, but I'd rather not go there unless it were explicitly supported by the story.) UX 10 might not even be the first time that he's mentioned Cerebro, which would explain the team's non-reaction (especially Scott's), but any actual appearance of Cerebro would have to go after UX 13, or else the entire sequence where the X-Men learn about Cerebro is invalidated. 

I honestly don't consider the X-Men suspecting the Brotherhood's involvement in something to automatically place that appearance before the Brotherhood's dissolution. Just because the team disbanded doesn't mean that the X-Men won't be wary that they might return in some form (especially if they've already fought ex-Brotherhood members since the group broke up).

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Apr 05, 2007 5:54 am 
By Dhall

Sean that is my reading of the text as well. I mean how many times has a group calling itself the brotherhood shown up over the years? 

Kevin writes: 
>>>
Too many X-Men fans on this board, (and the 60's wasn't even the X-Men's best period)!
<<<

But yet one where people are willing to spend a lot of time arguing about, so we must care. Really though, while the X-Men were never an A-list team in the 60's there's a lot to enjoy about the period. There's less to enjoy about some of the villains and plots (Frankenstein's monster, I'm looking at you.)

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Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:48 am 
By jephyork
Director

I too am very surprised that nobody's thought of "between panels of issues" as slots for these comics, too. 

I wish I had the darned books. This is one case where waiting for the trade is detrimental. But, without having read any, here's my thoughts: 

1) I'm prepared to take this series as canon, and overlook a number of errors (like people saying Jason Wyngarde's name) to do so. This is hardly the first time that a set-in-the-past book has had errors. We don't call 'em canon-busters, we call 'em errors and we move on with life. 

2) I have no problem with the concept of the X-Men attending college classes at Xavier's, as we've had about a million offhand references over the last 35 years that indicate that this was, in fact, the case. 

3) I believe that the X-Men officially learn about Cerebro in #12, and would like to avoid placing any issues of FC before that if at all possible. 

4) I don't like the conceit that, every once in a while, the X-Men happen to be wearing these new "v2.0" uniforms that we've never seen before. I'd much prefer it if they wore those uniforms for one single period of time, and would like to see the entire series dropped into ONE gap in the X-Men's history. If not possible, I'd grouchily settle for two gaps. And I'd ignore a number of errors to help keep the issues together in that way. 

5) I have very little problem with a talking, holo-projecting Cerebro room in the basement. Xavier's always had gadgets that were cool for the times (that Danger Room was tricked-out even in 1963, and the Z'Nox Chamber was very tech-heavy) -- and although it's a little jarring, I find that on balance, I don't really mind this retroactively much more powerful Cerebro machine. It's a retcon like any other, but if we keep these issues away from UX #1-12, I'm okay with it. 

Again, I haven't read any of "First Class". These are just my thoughts from reading through the thread. Canon books *can* have errors -- it's okay for them to have errors. It's not ideal, sure, but we just sigh and place 'em as best we can. 

-Jeph!

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Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:30 pm 
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote:
>>>
I have very little problem with a talking, holo-projecting Cerebro room in the basement. Xavier's always had gadgets that were cool for the times (that Danger Room was tricked-out even in 1963, and the Z'Nox Chamber was very tech-heavy)
<<<

Not to mention his tank-tread combat wheelchair that made one appearance during the Lucifer storyline and was never seen again. There's certainly a precedent for Xavier coming up with some bizarre new technology and then completely forgetting about it afterwards.

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Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:43 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
Too many X-Men fans on this board, (and the 60's wasn't even the X-Men's best period)!
<<<

Dhall wrote:
>>>
But yet one where people are willing to spend a lot of time arguing about, so we must care. 
<<<

Absolutely! And I think it's great that this debate has lasted for so long. If anything, it proves how much some of us have invested in these characters. 


jephyork wrote:
>>>
I wish I had the darned books. This is one case where waiting for the trade is detrimental. 
<<<

When you do get the trade, I think you'll enjoy it. It really is a fun series! 


jephyork wrote:
>>>
3) I believe that the X-Men officially learn about Cerebro in #12, and would like to avoid placing any issues of FC before that if at all possible. 
<<<

Fair enough. My point was, there's enough error in the originals themselves, that if we needed to, there's a 'way out.' 

However, and I know you haven't read them yet, XM: FC 6 could easily go before UX 12. In XM: FC 6 there's no mention of Cerebro, searching for mutants or teaching class, Warren is driving everyone around in his car, the team is 'dateless,' and Warren assumes it's the Brotherhood impersonating them. I feel the issue works very well in this period. The only point I can see being brought against it...


jephyork wrote:
>>>
4) I don't like the conceit that, every once in a while, the X-Men happen to be wearing these new "v2.0" uniforms that we've never seen before. I'd much prefer it if they wore those uniforms for one single period of time, and would like to see the entire series dropped into ONE gap in the X-Men's history. If not possible, I'd grouchily settle for two gaps. And I'd ignore a number of errors to help keep the issues together in that way.
<<<

Again, I know you haven't read them yet, but there's several references in First Class to the team's 'regular' uniforms. There's even a FlashBack to the regular uniforms proving that there are two sets.(Meaning, First Class isn't saying these are the originals, being shown to us in a different art style. It's saying that there are two sets, and they use the 2.0s every so often while they normally use the originals)

I can see your point in trying to keep appearances of the different suits grouped together, but to me, I'd rather not. After all, the writer says that the issues of the First Class mini are supposed to be sprinkled throughout the Uncanny issues, and not in publication order. If anything, that's an argument against keeping them grouped together. 


jephyork wrote:
>>>
Canon books *can* have errors -- it's okay for them to have errors. It's not ideal, sure, but we just sigh and place 'em as best we can.
<<<

Thankfully, I think we've moved past debating whether or not First Class is canon, and moved on to finding placements for it... I think. 


SeanCurtin wrote:
>>>
There's certainly a precedent for Xavier coming up with some bizarre new technology and then completely forgetting about it afterwards.
<<<

Man, I wish I had three billion dollars...

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:14 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Oh, I understand that they're not meant to be "the originals in a different art style" -- but, to me, it simply stretches credibility that we never saw them wear these uniforms ever before, and yet they just happen to be wearing them in every untold story in this series. To me, the only real way to rationalize that is to keep them as close together as possible. 


>>>
the writer says that the issues of the First Class mini are supposed to be sprinkled throughout the Uncanny issues, and not in publication order.
<<<

Can you direct me to his statements? I haven't read them, and I'd like to. If he doesn't offer specific placement suggestions, though, I'd personally like to see them grouped as closely as possible together (whether in publication order or not), to minimize the number of instances where they all randomly decided to change costumes. 

The preview art for First Class v2 #1 confuses me -- are those the originals or the v2 uniforms? 

-Jeph!

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Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:35 pm 
By Somebody
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Oh, I understand that they're not meant to be "the originals in a different art style" -- but, to me, it simply stretches credibility that we never saw them wear these uniforms ever before, and yet they just happen to be wearing them in every untold story in this series. To me, the only real way to rationalize that is to keep them as close together as possible.
<<<

I'm not really seeing such a problem with it (and it should be mentioned that they've changed slightly - FC7 has the X logos where a belt buckle would be enclosed in a circle, where the earlier issues didn't). They're spares - they get pulled out in FC4, for instance, because the individualised costumes [call them v3.0 for simplicity] are explicitly damaged thanks to Jean's complaint about not having her pointed mask combined with the post-UX33 placement by reference. And, throughout the series, there's complaints about the "regular" or "original" uniforms being out of commission when they're used. They're backups, presumably simpler/cheaper/not made of unstable molecules/something like that to make but less desirable for it than the "v1.0" or "v3.0" costumes.

[And turn it around - they're specifically showing us missions with the v2.0 costumes, not random missions, all of which happen to feature the v2.0 costumes out of sheer coincidence, which the earlier reporters of this period hated enough to try and airbrush out of history .] 


jephyork wrote:
>>>
The preview art for First Class v2 #1 confuses me -- are those the originals or the v2 uniforms?
<<<

You mean the X:FC2 #1 cover? That's the v2.0 uniforms again, although the new cover artist seems to draw them a bit differently to the X:FC1 cover artist and Cruz (the interior artist)

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Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:44 pm 
By Dhall

Jeph, 
Before I read FC, I wanted it to be canon as well. 
But I think you are misunderstanding the anti-canon position 
No one is saying there's one error, let's toss the book out. 

What we're saying is that there are multiple errors, some that are large, many that are small, some that are important, some that are trivial. It's one thing to have one error, it's another to have so many that the book collapses under it's own weight. 

I think FC has done that, especially as of issue 7. If a book has multiple errors, we have little choice but to call them a canon-buster. 

Since you haven't read it yet, I wonder if you will be all right with how Cerebro is portrayed in the series, once you have. We've talked a little about what Cerebro looks like, BUT we haven't yet had the discussion about all the things it's shown as being used for in the series. 

It's shown at on point as a giant wall sized teaching device in the main mansion. And the thing talks. (But let's save that discussion for a little while, I want to do some further research on Cerebro first.) 

And as for the X-Men taking college classes at Xavier's well sure, I mean who really cares if they did or not, it's all an issue of placement. 

No one in the history of Marvel has clarified the issue of when the X-Men took the college classes that are mentioned in the handbooks. We're talking about an extremely tight schedule here, in the books, due to Jean leaving the team to go to Metro for 1/6 of the run, and Xavier's "death" for the last 26 issues. There is really not enough time in the run for the X-Men to have completed college degrees at Xavier's, unless they completed them during the post Hidden years/pre GSX1. Before anyone gets upset, notice that the key word in my sentence is COMPLETED. 

Also we have the fact that Jean's father, a college professor himself,and a friend of Xavier didn't think Jean was getting an appropriate education at Xavier's, and pulled her out to have her attend Metro. 

To me that's powerful evidence. 

However, I hope that you get the chance to read the trade soon. I'm quite interested in seeing if your opinion changes once you've read the books. I know that mine did. 

It also reads much more like a Marvel Adventures book, than one that is supposed to be set in the regular time line. Not a bad read mind you, just not like the 616-time line comics.

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Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:03 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I know that, at one point, there *was* a "Marvel Adventures X-Men" series being prepped. (There's a defunct Amazon listing for the first digest.) Presumably the concept evolved into this series. 

I placed a pre-order today for the HC of this miniseries. It's being published in *gulp* June. Until then, I guess I'll just continue to sit back and watch the fur fly in this thread...  

-Jeph!

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Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:23 pm 
By metaldragon

Sorry, I'm kinda lost on the "2.0" and "3.0" costumes... The X-Men original team uniforms (blue-black pants & top with yellow sleeveless over-shirt and shorts with yellow belts & boots) lasted from UX 1-27 with minor experimentation with masks by Marvel Girl. Any red belts seen during this period are, as I understand, not in the original comics and were actually errors introduced during reprints where they redid the colour. 

The next set of uniforms were introduced in UX 27: A bit of a re-design by Jean while she was at Metro. The pants & tops seem to be actually blue now instead of blue-black (much less inking than before), she narrowed the yellow sleeveless over-shirt to more of a tabard that tapered from shoulders to the waist in a "V" shape, and gave them all red belts. She made her own costume v-neck and decided to bring back the "M" shaped mask for good. 

The third set are the individual style costumes she brought out at the end of UX 39. 

Now we've got these "back-up" uniforms... If they're 2.0, are we calling the originals (UX 1-27) 1.0, Jean's revamp (UX 27-39) 1.5, and the individual style (UX 39-66) 3.0 or am I still confused?

"May the Light shine forever!"

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Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:31 pm 
By Somebody
Director

The FC costumes are called the "version 2.0 uniforms" by Xavier in X:FC 4. Anything else is pure extrapolation.

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Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:37 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Can you direct me to his statements? I haven't read them, and I'd like to. 
<<<

Jason posted a link to an interview at http://www.comicon.com on page three of this thread, but I'm having troubles navigating that site. Also on page three, Somebody posted this:


>>>
http://www.parkerspace.com/2007/03/22/in-stores-now/#comments 
Hi, theres an argument going on at the Marvel Chronology Project board about where/if X-Men First Class fits into continuity ( http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2920 ). Just wondering where you meant the issues to fall (if anywhere in particular). 

Comment by Gerard  On 03-22-07 at 9:20 am 

---- 
Hey Gerard, Ill try to get over there and leave some thoughts that might help. As I just said in an interview somewhere, our stories arent in consecutive order. Since theyre all stand alones, they dont have to be sequential, and they jump all around throughout the early years. But Ill try to explain myself, the editors, etc. when I get a moment to go register and post. In other words, Ill willingly walk into that dunk tank while everyone has a fresh supply of rubber balls! 

Comment by Parker  On 03-22-07 at 9:20 am
<<<



Taking a look at his site, it looks like he's had a busy week, and hasn't had the chance to pop in here yet. 


metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Now we've got these "back-up" uniforms... If they're 2.0, are we calling the originals (UX 1-27) 1.0, Jean's revamp (UX 27-39) 1.5, and the individual style (UX 39-66) 3.0 or am I still confused?
<<<

No one has made the distinction here between Jean's revamps and the original Kirbys.(They were just tweaked versions of the Kirbys, anyway) I suppose you could call Jean's revamps the 1.5s... or maybe the 2.5s, now that the 2.0s have appeared as early as the time of Avengers 16.  

-edit- 

Dammit, Somebody! You beat me to it! 

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:41 pm 
By metaldragon

With the Jean attending Metro issue... I got the feeling her parents enrolled her there so she would get a broader social life. Studying in a small private school with only 4 boys around her age and run by a male teacher... I can see why her parents might have pulled her for that reason alone! I doubt it had much to do with Xavier's classes/lack of them. 

Other evidence that the X-Men must have been continuing their education, it's pretty clear that Hank got his PhD in Bio-chem before he was employed at Brand, so he must have been continuing his education after their graduation in UX 7 up to that point... which suggests to me that they all did.

"May the Light shine forever!"

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Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:00 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Good point, metaldragon. 

It's been a while since I've read the 'Metro' issues of Uncanny... so I may be a bit off here. Wasn't Jean living in the dorms at Metro for a while? What's to stop her from attending classes mainly at Metro, and taking a few at Xavier's for transfer credits? Or vice-versa? That is, if there's even a slot for First Class to go during that period...

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:30 pm 
By Jason Doty

Here's the whole link 

http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimate ... 6;t=005198

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Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:34 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Ahh, much better.  Thanks Jason!

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:04 am 
By Dhall

>>>
I doubt it had much to do with Xavier's classes/lack of them. 
<<<

I've already posted the relevant quotes from her father, which weigh against this interpetation a few pages back. 

Can someone answer me, why the pro-canon types in this thread are willing to overlook so much perfectly valid evidence from the original series? 

The way I read this thread, it doesn't like the pro-canon types care anything about the originals, and are just trying to fit FC in at all costs. 

(I know this is a generalizaion, so don't jump on me for it, I'm just making a general observation here.) 

http://www.marvel.com/news/comicstories.373 

Here's another link for you all to Marvel's announcement of the ongoing. Notice how many times words like "lighthearted fun", "mandate of fun" , "timeless atmosphere" and the like are used <shudder> 


I'm still not seeing a big enough gap anywhere in the original series to stick an ongoing, let alone one that takes place in multiple time frames during the original series.

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Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:31 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

David, I think folks are trying their best to make it work because of all the statements by Jeff Parker... 

"...in continuity..." 
"...no retconning..." 
"...don't want to throw out the continuity..." 
"...we do a lot of research..." 

Some of us may disagree with that last statement, and who knows, we may end up tossing this out as non-canonical because of the crushing weight of inconsistency, but it's worth a good effort, and folks are giving it their best. This is a great thread.Paul B.

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Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:44 am 
By Jason Doty

>>>
Can someone answer me, why the pro-canon types in this thread are willing to overlook so much perfectly valid evidence from the original series? 
<<<

Maybe it's because our definition of valid differs from yours. 

In this discussion, the anti-canon started with being upset over the uniforms (explained), the "Blackbird,"(apparently wrecked), the Cerebro chamber like the movie (which showed up, in 2000's, with no explanation either, yet must have existed prior to that). 

Then we moved to finding a gap, which the anti-canon types rulled out one by one, but one was found. 

Then we moved to the minor errors such as who knew what names and so-in-so's costume is the wrong color. 

Then we moved to comic interpretation. At the very least, us pro-canon group minded individuals, have tried to accomidate the anti-canon groups "key" or "valid" concerns as they arrose. 

I really apprientiate the effort you did hitting the main important reasons of where or where not the series could fit, because I agree with the anti-canon camp on many of their key issues, but the anti's seem to be operating from the "at any cost attitude." 

Marvel and the writer have "in print" called these "in continuity" tales. The pro-canon group must be operating from editorial intent. This would be finding a slot for them unless they cannot fit.

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Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:01 am 
By Somebody
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
Here's another link for you all to Marvel's announcement of the ongoing. Notice how many times words like "lighthearted fun", "mandate of fun" , "timeless atmosphere" and the like are used <shudder>
<<<

Yes, "<shudder>" indeed. 

Why, one might think there was no place for books which aren't grimy and a NXM-style slaughterfest...

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Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:20 am 
By Ocean Doot

"4) I don't like the conceit that, every once in a while, the X-Men happen to be wearing these new "v2.0" uniforms that we've never seen before. I'd much prefer it if they wore those uniforms for one single period of time, and would like to see the entire series dropped into ONE gap in the X-Men's history. If not possible, I'd grouchily settle for two gaps. And I'd ignore a number of errors to help keep the issues together in that way." 

"[And turn it around - they're specifically showing us missions with the v2.0 costumes, not random missions, all of which happen to feature the v2.0 costumes out of sheer coincidence, which the earlier reporters of this period hated enough to try and airbrush out of history .] " 

I don't know how serious Somebody is being, but I actually agree with this. First Class is basically "The Adventures of the Version 2.0 Costumes." Somebody is going through all the X-Men's "untold adventurs" and cherry-picking the ones in which they wore these costumes. Doesn't strain credulity to me at all. 

Besides, there HAS to be at least two gaps for First Class. The Dr. Strange issue HAS to go after the Factor Three arc (we've all agreed on that), and Mastermind was a member of Factor Three during that arc, having reverted from his "hunk of solid matter" state. 

And I still think the Skrull issue has to go before the break-up of the Brotherhood, but ... hey, maybe that's just me. 

And Somebody -- I was sick yesterday and laid up at home, so since I had a bunch of free time I dug out my Dark Phoenix trade. And I was wrong about the disco -- Cyclops doesn't know his name yet at that point. (He did hear Phoenix whisper "Jason" while in a hallucinatory state during the Proteus arc -- and then yelled "JASON?!?" in a very jealous manner -- but that's it.) As they're leaving the disco, Mastermind is standing on the street and Cyclops says, "That's the man Jean kissed at the disco." 

Two issues later, he has heard Jason Wyngarde's name. His thought balloon upon seeing him at the Hellfire club is "That's Jason Wyngarde." A couple pages later Mastermind drops the facade and Cyclops shouts "Mastermind!" And then the narration goes on to talk about how it's too bad Cyclops didn't recognize the shadow from two issues ago. (Of course, there's no narration saying, "If only Cyclops had remembered that he already knew that Jason Wyngarde was the dude's real name...Nice one, Scott"). 

Col. Fury, I don't think you can make an argument that Cyclops just forgot the name. If it wasn't a key plot point of DPS, maybe you could argue that it's a "Humanizing" element of Scott. But when so much is made of the tragedy that could've been averted had Cyclops noticed the silhouette, it just is silly to say, "Oh, and also they could've averted tragedy if they had halfway decent memories." 

It's a mistake in First Class. I agree it's not enough to render the comics non-canon for the MCP's purpose, but I have to say it was enough to take me out of it. I was with X-Men: FC up until then, but now I'm dropping it.

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Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:39 am 
By Ocean Doot

I'm surprised people are making an issue of the "taking classes" thing. This isn't a contradiction at all. An early issue of the Lee-Kirby run says *EXPLICITLY that they do post-graduate work at the school, "even though they've already graduated." 

Of course, it's said in narration during a Danger Room sequence, so Stan Lee seems to be referring more to combat training ... but, it's certainly no contradiction to say they were also doing post-grad class work. 

It's a complete non-issue, as far as First Class is concerned. Dhall brings up the question of when they would've had time to *complete* the college-level work and get college degrees, but that question is completely irrelevant to First Class. 

Finally, the "Jean Grey at Metro" phase goes roughly from issues 24 to 34, and nobody has suggested any of those issues as having gaps in which to place First Class anyway. So, that strikes me as a non-issue as well. 

Finally, Dhall notes the quotes from Jean's father as to the "Why" of Jean being transferred to Metro. I'm not sure anybody's mentioned this, but ... isn't anything from the '60s involving Jean and her parents kind of tacitly retocnned anyway, because of that 1980s story that established a new history among Jean, her father and Professor X? For instance, X-Men #1, in which Jean seems to be meeting Professor X for the first time, has to be radically re-read in light of ret-cons. Similarly, the scene in issue 5 where Jean's parents come visit and act completely in the dark about Professor X and the school (we're talking really, painfully naive here) has to be blanked out of existence, since we know her parents were far more knowledgeable than that about the true nature of the school. 

All of which means we have to call into question the "real" motivations for her parents transferring Jean to Metro. It seems perfectly reasonable to say that it had nothing to do with education, but with the fact that they felt the X-Mansion was too insular. (See X-Men #105, in which John Grey says to Charles, "You know, I always felt your school was too insular...") 

So, Dhall, in asnwer to your question, "Can someone answer me, why the pro-canon types in this thread are willing to overlook so much perfectly valid evidence from the original series?", 

it may simply be that early 60s X-Men continuity has already been made malleable by so many previous ret-cons.

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Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:29 pm 
By Dhall

Jason, 
Thanks for responding to my post. I have to disagree with you on one thing, but the anti's seem to be operating from the "at any cost attitude." I see the pros operating from an "at any cost attitude." 
Maybe it's because our definition of valid differs from yours. 
I consider evidence from already canon comics to be the only valid evidence. (We need to measure FC against that, not vice versa.) Ive posted quite a bit of it, but the response Im getting back from the pro side often consists of nothing, but twisting that evidence and saying that X doesnt mean X, it means Y. 

This has gotten to the point, where I feel like the pro side is saying that nothing in the original comics & indexes matters in any way, shape or form, and I also feel that there are some who are just discounting everything from the originals in favor of FC. 

To be clear, I understand that not everyone is taking such a position, but I feel that you in particular are. 

If you feel that is misrepresenting your position, fine, but thats what Im getting from reading your posts. 

I understand what youre saying about editorial intent, and I do agree with what youre saying about that. But consider also, that this project started as a Marvel Adventure series. Also consider that I for one wouldnt buy it if the series were being marketed as non-canon. Im one of those fans who are only interested in canon material. If Marvel labeled this series Marvel Adventures X-Men and/or described it as non-canon, they would have one fewer sale. From a marketing perspective, if I were Marvel I would state in interviews that everything Marvel published was in continuity.

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Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:17 pm 
By Jason Doty

This has gotten to the point, where I feel like the pro side is saying that nothing in the original comics & indexes matters in any way, shape or form, and I also feel that there are some who are just discounting everything from the originals in favor of FC. 

I'm not suggesting that at all, I look at the originals at face value, they were written in the 60's and sometimes when others write about tales in this era they get some of the details wrong. I'm personally an X-Men completest and buy everything and I understand not everything works (Children of the Atom, X-Men: Mythos) because they directly contridict an established storyline. I view the Indexes as a framework and not the end all of continuity. They were printed in the 90's and were originaly started by a fan, no different then us, who used his own ideas to make the Marvel U mesh together. Expanding on what he established is continuing that tradition. 

I'm not trying to make it work at any cost, but I am trying to make it work. I respect all of your hard work and contributions and tried to come up with a reasonable placement based on your coments and concerns, but we are going to have to disagree on this title. I agree with the comment from the begining of this thread, that this series is "just on the right side of continuity." 

As always, this isn't personal combat and I believe that the ideas you and the rest of the anti-side do have merit. I'm just not as "stringent" about how perfectly these books match up in regards to my reading. If I can convince myself that something could have or not have happened BTS, I enjoy making the effort.

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Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:22 pm 
By Somebody

Jason Doty wrote:
>>>
I view the Indexes as a framework and not the end all of continuity. They were printed in the 90's and were originaly started by a fan, no different then us, who used his own ideas to make the Marvel U mesh together. Expanding on what he established is continuing that tradition.
<<<

And before anyone gets het up at Jason D's comment, can I just point out that hewing to the Indices absolutely would similarly absolutely prohibit insert stories written after their publication from being canon. 

[And that's even before you consider stuff like Marvels #2 establishing the Reed/Sue wedding as occurring between pages of UX - rather than between two issues as the index would have it - when Busiek did his research from first principles and concluded that was where it should go.]

			*	*	*

Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:32 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
Can someone answer me, why the pro-canon types in this thread are willing to overlook so much perfectly valid evidence from the original series? 
<<<

To answer the spirit of the question: It's a book published by Marvel Comics said to be taking place in the past of Earth-616. We have to assume it's canon until proven otherwise. 


To your point: 

Dhall wrote:
>>>
From a marketing perspective, if I were Marvel I would state in interviews that everything Marvel published was in continuity.
<<<

Fair enough, but prove that First Class isn't canon. It doesn't matter if it started as a Marvel Adventures book or not. It's said to be canon, so it is unless it's proven not to be. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
I consider evidence from already canon comics to be the only valid evidence. (We need to measure FC against that, not vice versa.) Ive posted quite a bit of it, but the response Im getting back from the pro side often consists of nothing, but twisting that evidence and saying that X doesnt mean X, it means Y. 
<<<

Evidence can be interpreted in different ways, and sometimes evidence has to be re-interpreted to make things work, even within the originals themselves! We've covered the 'when the X-Men find out about Cerebro' issue, and even within that, a BTS explanation/re-interpretation of dialogue is needed for the discrepancies between Uncanny 10 & 12.(I think we've settled on Uncanny 12, and therefore no appearances for Cerebro in First Class before that, right?) We've re-interpreted the dialogue in Uncanny 10 as originally presented to make it work with Uncanny 12, and my point from a few days ago was, there are lots of ways to interpret dialogue. An example of an earlier retcon requiring re-interpretations to make things work:


Ocean Doot wrote:
>>>
For instance, X-Men #1, in which Jean seems to be meeting Professor X for the first time, has to be radically re-read in light of ret-cons. Similarly, the scene in issue 5 where Jean's parents come visit and act completely in the dark about Professor X and the school (we're talking really, painfully naive here) has to be blanked out of existence, since we know her parents were far more knowledgeable than that about the true nature of the school. 
<<<

Bizarre Adventures 27 forces us to re-interpret dialogue from those Uncanny issues. First Class may make us do the same again. 

No one is saying this is a perfect fit, and some mistakes have been made. Mastermind's name? It's a mistake. 'Scott forgot' works for me as an explanation, it doesn't work for practically everyone else. So what? It's a mistake, not a canon-buster. 

As for the Indices, Somebody said it for me. Thanks! 

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:53 am 
By Dhall

>>>
and that's even before you consider stuff like Marvels #2 establishing the Reed/Sue wedding as occurring between pages of UX - rather than between two issues as the index would have it - when Busiek did his research from first principles and concluded that was where it should go.]
<<<

Somebody, 
Where does Busiek say that Marvels 2 should go, between which pages of what issue? 

Thanks! 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
See, I'm not a big fan of sticking everything in at any price, that approach holds little value TO ME. I think that FC started out as just on the right side of canon, Jason, but it's gone downhill from there (canon-wise, I mean.) There are several major errors, that can only be covered over by wild speculation. You or Fury can invent speculative explanations all day long, but they're not supported by either the original books or FC, so I'm not going to buy those explanations. 

FC has gone beyond the point of us overlooking one or two minor errors, and has collapsed under the weight of several major, and many minor ones. It's gone from being on 'just the right side of canon' to being well over the line.

			*	*	*

Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:47 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
An example of an earlier retcon requiring re-interpretations to make things work:
<<<

As an aside, I'll cite an example from a story published in the '70s. In CA 153-156, we learned how the Cap and Bucky that appeared in '50s comics were not the originals because A 4 had retconned those comics with the "death" of Bucky and Cap-on-ice scenario. One of those '50s comics had Bucky asking Cap something like "We ever done it like this before?" When the same scene was reprinted in CA 155, the editors put quotation marks around the "We," giving a whole new reading to the dialogue. I remember that being the first time I noticed an intentional re-interpretation of a canonical scene because of a retcon.

Paul B.

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Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:38 am 
By Dhall

Paul B, 
Would you agree that there is a world of difference between Marvel showing us a retcon, and say you and I inventing one? 

Also would you agree that there is a world of difference between Marvel showing us such a retcon as you describe, and showing us something that isn't compatable with no explanation?

			*	*	*

Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:49 am 
By metaldragon

>>>
Where does Busiek say that Marvels 2 should go, between which pages of what issue? 
<<<

Between page 3 & 4 of UX 14.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:04 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
Between page 3 & 4 of UX 14
<<<

Hmmn, just looking at UX 14 (and not marvels 2) there's really not a gap between pages 3 and 4 there to be had.

			*	*	*

Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:09 pm 
By metaldragon

I'm going by the page numbers in the Essential volume. Story-wise, it should be after Professor X gives them a bill of perfect health and tells them they can have a vacation, and before the "Meanwhile, at Professor Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters..." panel where Bobby is strapping down Warren's wings for him.

Last edited by metaldragon on Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:26 pm 
By metaldragon

If you want to be really specific, the FF wedding would have to go between panel 4 & 5 on the page where Professor X announces their vacation. 

If the press conference with Trask is taking place while Xavier tells the X-Men they've earned a vacation and the story goes to print while the X-Men are getting ready to go on their vacation, the caption at the top of panel 5 must be an exaggeration. I doubt "within minutes, the nation's presses" would "go into action" I think it takes a bit longer to write up a story and get it printed than "minutes". Probably a bit closer to the amount of time it would take to attend a wedding maybe...?

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:16 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Marvels #2 establishes (reinforced by a commentary column by Busiek in the TPB, that I may scan and post later) that the F4 wedding was on the morning of the Sentinels' debut. The exact same day. 

If there's no gap in the original for that, then :p, but metaldragon has it.

			*	*	*

Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:55 pm 
By Dhall

oh, all I'm saying is there's no gap therein the original. I understand what Busiek is doing, just pointing out that he's the one creating a gap, and that it's really not present if you were to just read UX 14. I'm not complaining about it either, just saying. I'd love to read his commentary column, since I don't have the TPB. 

If you were to just read UX 14, clearly the story flows is meant to be continuous between Xavier announcing the vacation, and the X-Men going off to do whatever. Does it bother me in any way that they end up going to the wedding then on vacation, Not in the slightest. 

I have to say that it makes more sense to have the wedding NOT appear between UX 13 and 14, where the male X-Men are supposed to be seriously injured. 

It does seem a little odd that the X-Men go all the way back to the mansion first, before they leave to take the train/Warren's car back into the city, instead of just changing after the wedding, but.. 

Oh, and the television appearance with Trask and Xavier is mentioned as being 'the very next evening' after the X-Men leave for their vacation. 


Come to think of it, it would make a lot more sense to place Marvels #2 between pages 6 and 7 of X-Men 14, and make the assumption that the X-Men planned to meet up together in the city for the wedding. 

That would give us the following sequence of events: 

UX Pages 1-2, page 3 panel 1: Xavier announces the team is fit, and is giving them a vacation 

Page 3 Panels 2-5: Trask speech, papers go to press. 

Page 4-5 X-Men get ready for vacation & leave for New York City. 

Page 6: Xavier reads paper, and calls tv network to set up a debate with Trask 

Marvels 2 (etc.) Day of the wedding, that morning the X-Men meet up in NYC and attend Reed and Sue's wedding. 

Then the X-Men resume their vacation. 

UX 14 Page 7-end: That evening (The very next evening after page 6) Xavier appears on live TV with Trask, and the sentinels make their debut. 


This sequence has the advantage of NOT breaking up the leaving for vacation sequence in UX 14, and Keeps the time frame established in UX 14 for the debate (The Very next evening) intact, AND allows for the wedding and the Sentinel debut to be on the very same day. 

Putting Marvels 2 between pages 4 and 5, would mean that the Sentinel debut would be on the very next evening, after the wedding.

			*	*	*

Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:40 pm 
By metaldragon

Works for me!

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:18 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I decided Id take the time to set the Marvel Saga and the Marvel Indexes to one side and delve into the original comics and previous continuity implants. In the process, I discovered that MARVELS already forced a change in the sequence of events around this time, so the Saga and Indexes need to be modified anyway. 

If First Class is canonical, it forces further adjustments, but I think Ive figured out a way to make things work (if somewhat awkwardly)  the Cerebro issue (partly), the Wanda/Pietro issue, the costumes, keeping First Class issues together when possible, etc. For the time being, Im not including flashbacks and references to new past events in First Class, and Im relegating X:FC 4 to a spot between UX 39 and 40, but here goes (with many plot details omitted for simplicity of argument): 


UX 11 
The Stranger petrifies Mastermind and takes Magneto and Toad captive. 
Pietro and Wanda leave the Brotherhood. 

UX 12 
The X-Men learn about Cerebro when it detects Juggernaut (even though hes not a mutant!). 
Apparently, Cerebro can sound a loud claxon but cant speak. 

UX 13 
The battle with Juggernaut in which the male X-Men are injured. 

XMF 3 (13-22p1) 
It is a couple of weeks after UX 13 and before UX 14. 
The X-Men show signs of their injuries from UX 13. 
Magneto and Toad are captives of the Stranger. 

UX 14 (1-3p1) 
The X-Men recover from the injuries they suffered in the battle with Juggernaut. Xavier tells them theyve earned a vacation  our first one in years according to Warren (exaggerating). 

X:FC 1 
[Before they can prepare for a vacation, the X-Men are interrupted by] a disturbance at the botanical gardens in town, to which the X-Men respond in their version 2.0 costumes. The investigation leads the group to the Arctic. 
The X-Men know about Cerebro. 
A prototype of Cerebros frontal lobe chamber  the big spherical room  is shown. 

X:FC 2 
Xavier: If you remember, before our last adventure [which I interpret as X:FC 1]...I had promised you all a vacation, which I interpret as UX 14 (1-3p1). 
For their vacation, they go to the Worthingtons beachfront house in Florida, where they encounter the Lizard. 
The last time Connors was this bad was in ASM 6. 

X:FC 3 
The X-Men are familiar with Juggernaut and Jarvis. 
The frontal lobe chamber appears. 

X:FC 5 
Xavier uses Cerebro to locate Bobby (and the X-Men know it). 
Xavier meets Thor (they communicated with each other, but hadnt met in person in UX 9). 

X:FC 7-FB 
Beast uses Cerebro to locate Scarlet Witch, whos still in the country after UX 11. 
Obviously, Hank and Warren know Cerebros function for finding mutants. 
Warren starts seeing Wanda. 
This flashback occurs two weeks before X:FC 7. 

X:FC 7 
Cerebro teaches the students while Xavier is on vacation. 
Cerebro is good for more than finding mutants; its an artificial intelligence that can speak. 
Cerebro notes that Warren is not in attendance again for the fourth time in two weeks and 
Warren notes that this is date four with Wanda, so we can assume that hes been seeing Wanda for two weeks. 
The X-Men know Wandas and Pietros first names (Scott makes reference to them). 
They associate the siblings with the Brotherhood, not the Avengers. 
Mastermind is at Xaviers school, still petrified from the Stranger (UX 11). 
The last mutant search Cerebro has run is for Scarlet Witch in X:FC 7-FB two weeks earlier. (No other use of Cerebro to detect mutants can go between X:FC 7-FB and X:FC 7.) 
Warrens fling with Wanda ends. 

UX 18  FB 
Magneto escapes the Strangers planet, leaving the Toad behind. 

M/H&L 97 (17-18) 
Magneto catches up to Wanda and Pietro in the Balkans, but they escape him. 

A 16 ~ M/H&L 97 
Pietro and Wanda join the Avengers. 

A 17 
JIM 120 
A 18 
More appearances by Pietro and Wanda. 

UX 14 (3p2-6) 
The X-Men decide to take time off separately; this is not the vacation noted in UX 14 (1-3p1). 
Once they leave, Xavier reads a Daily Globe article about Bolivar Trask with the headline Mutant Menace! Eminent Anthropologist Says Mankind Faces Gravest Danger... 

MARVELS 2 (30-31p3) 
Phil Sheldon sees the same Daily Globe article (same headline). 
He encounters a microfilmed account of the X-Men attending Reeds and Sues engagement party (on a previous day). 

MARVELS 2 (31p4-32p4) 
Sheldon starts spending evenings in Greenwich Village, looking for the X-Men, and one night, he sees Iceman streak by and is dissuaded from inquiry by Cyclops. 
The FF Fan Club are prepared to camp out all week to be at Reeds and Sues wedding. 

MARVELS 2 (32p5-32p6) 
Guests start arriving for Reeds and Sues wedding. 

FF@ 3 ~ M/H&L 1 ~ MARVELS 2 (33) 
Pietro and Wanda attend Reeds and Sues wedding as Avengers. 
The X-Men attend the wedding, back in version 1.0 costumes. 
Phil Sheldon takes pictures of the wedding. 

(After the wedding, Bobby and Hank go to Coffee-A-Go-Go, Warren has dinner with his parents on Long Island, Jean takes off in a train, and Scott finds himself in a cab.) 

UX 14 (7-20) ~ MARVELS 2 (34-45) 
That evening, Phil delivers his film of the wedding to Barney Bushkin at a bar as Xavier starts debates Trask on TV. Sentinels attack. 
So, the televised debate cant occur the very next evening after UX 14 (3p2-6) because of the time inserted by MARVELS 2. 
Zelda says that she hasnt seen Bobby or Hank in months. Bobby asks her out, but then has to leave, ticking Zelda off. 

UX 15 
UX 16 
UX 17 
UX 18 
The X-Men fight the Sentinels, then Magneto. 
Cerebro is damaged. 

X:FC 6 
Xavier is out of town. 
The version 2.0 costumes are back. 
Zelda is seen at the Coffee-A-Go-Go, and Bobby is on the make for girls, probably while Zelda is still ticked off at him between UX 14 and UX 19. 
Since Zelda says that she hasnt seen Bobby or Hank in months in UX 14 (3p2-20), this story likely occurs after UX 18. 
Cerebro is not seen in this issue, so it can happen in the gap between UX 18 and 19. 

UX 19 
Bobby and Hank double-date with Zelda and Vera. 


So opening two gaps in UX 14 seems to address a number of problems weve discussed and accommodates MARVELS as well. Thoughts?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:55 pm 
By jephyork
Director

*applauds* 

I like this *very* much. 

-Jeph!

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Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:05 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

This looks pretty good to me, also. 

I really like the interpretation of the 'vacation' to Florida seen in XM: FC 2 being what was mentioned in UX 14. I also like the suggested placement of XM: FC 6. 

My X-Books are filed away for the moment, but hopefully later in the week I'll have a chance to read them in this order. 

Thanks, Paul!

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:39 am 
By Ocean Doot

"X:FC 3 
The X-Men are familiar with Juggernaut and Jarvis. 
The frontal lobe chamber appears. " 

The X-Men are also familiar with the Sentinels in this one. 

It can't go before the Sentinel arc.

			*	*	*

Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:30 pm 
By Crazy Penguin

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
I really like the interpretation of the 'vacation' to Florida seen in XM: FC 2 being what was mentioned in UX 14.
<<<

I think this might have been intentional. I recall Jeff Parker mentioning in an online interview that the idea of the Lizard issue came directly from all the times Xavier would promise the team a vacation in the original series.

			*	*	*

Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:30 pm 
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It seems clear enough to me that this series is supposed to be canon, and since Jeff Parker has helpfully confirmed that the stories aren't intended to take place in sequence, the placement of individual issues isn't a big problem. The different costumes have been explained, and while it may be a little contrived for a superhero team to have a home and away strip, there's nothing inherently impossible about the concept. 

Everything else, I think falls comfortably within the margin of artistic licence that applies when revisiting a period of continuity originally published decades ago. Things simply have to be revamped. When you've got two issues openly serving as sequels to 1960s stories, it's tough to argue that the series is not intended to be canon. To my mind, it would take some pretty fundamental and overwhelming inconsistencies to compel the opposite conclusion. I don't see them. 

As has already been pointed out in this thread, continuity in the 1960s wasn't that strict to start with. So really, to argue that FIRST CLASS isn't canon, you have to appeal to a definition of continuity that isn't supported by Marvel today, and wasn't supported by Marvel in the Silver Age. 

So what IS the basis for asserting such a strict definition as the correct test? It seems to me that if any useful definition of Marvel Universe continuity has to be based on the Marvel Universe as it actually appears in print. Marvel were relaxed about continuity in the sixties, got quite pernickety about it by the early eighties, and have now swung back to being relaxed again. I see no problem with that, and any test for continuity that can't account for the Silver Age or the last decade seems to me, on the face of it, to be a flawed test.

-- Paul O'Brien

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Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:36 pm 
By Ocean Doot

Sorry, another thing: 

"X:FC 6 
Xavier is out of town. 
The version 2.0 costumes are back. 
Zelda is seen at the Coffee-A-Go-Go, and Bobby is on the make for girls, probably while Zelda is still ticked off at him between UX 14 and UX 19. 
Since Zelda says that she hasnt seen Bobby or Hank in months in UX 14 (3p2-20), this story likely occurs after UX 18. 
Cerebro is not seen in this issue, so it can happen in the gap between UX 18 and 19. " 

If Cerebro is really not seen in this issue, I'd suggest putting it somewhere before issue 11 of the original series. FC 6 is the Skrull issue, in which the X-Men hypothesize at one point that the impostors are "the Brotherhood." When one considers the big to-do they make about Wanda and Pietro in First Class 7 ("Oh, why would they be spying on us? The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants dissolved!"), it seems really odd that -- if FC 6 takes place after the dissolution, and after First Class 7 for that matter -- nobody would answer the hypothesis with, "How could it be the Brotherhood? Magneto and the Toad are in space and Mastermind is made of stone." 

And especially if Paul's chronology is right and FC 7 is placed where it is, that would make the dialogue in FC 6 seem even more strange. Why suspect the Brotherhood when the only two active members are the people they made nice with in FC 7? 

I suggest putting First Class 6 in between UX 9 and 10, or in between UX 10 and 11, when the Brotherhood was still active.

			*	*	*

Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:46 pm 
By Ocean Doot

I keep thinking of stuff, sorry. 

Regarding First Class 3. Since the Sentinels are already a familiar sight in this issue, it has to go post UX 14-16. 

Got me thinking ... doesn't First Class 3 end with Professor X talking about dismantling this iteration of Cerebro because of what it did? So maybe First Class 3 should go in between UX 18 and UX 20, and it's the First Class AI version of Cerebro that is being "replaced" in UX 20. Would that make sense?

			*	*	*

Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:47 pm 
By Dhall

Paul, if I'm reading your post correctly, you are trying to create a gap in UX 14 for the following events: 

MARVELS 2 (30-31p3) 
Phil Sheldon sees the same Daily Globe article (same headline). 
He encounters a microfilmed account of the X-Men attending Reeds and Sues engagement party (on a previous day). 

MARVELS 2 (31p4-32p4) 
Sheldon starts spending evenings in Greenwich Village, looking for the X-Men, and one night, he sees Iceman streak by and is dissuaded from inquiry by Cyclops. 
The FF Fan Club are prepared to camp out all week to be at Reeds and Sues wedding. 


Could these not both be placed in the "injury gap" between UX 13 and 14? 
After all, Xavier's not ordering them on a mission, they're attending an engagement party, and hanging out in Greenwich Village. 

Can we not use the already existing gap, instead of creating a new one? 

There is no need for the Trask/headline thing in UX 14, to run at the same time as the rest of UX 14 pages 1-5, as no X-Men appear in that sequence. It could just as easy be out of sequence,(between UX 13 and 14) and still have the paper be printed in time for Sheldon to read the article in Marvels 2. Xavier just didn't have a chance to read the paper until he X-Men left the mansion, not really surprising...

Last edited by Dhall on Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total. 

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Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:53 pm 
By Jason Doty

Nice placement job Paul.

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Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:19 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
There is clearly no gap in UX 14, other than the one between pages 6 and 7. 
<<<

I get the impression of someone with arms folded here, David. I'm merely continuing the grand tradition of the great George Olshevsky himself, who was known to insert gaps in comics where they didn't obviously appear in the original narratives in order to accommodate new information or reconcile conflicting chronologies. 

And as we read UX 14, what kind of "vacations" do we really see? Hank and Bobby at the Coffee-A-Go-Go? Warren having dinner with his parents on Long Island? I think the Florida trip actually works better, and the reference in X:FC 2 to Xavier promising a vacation before their last adventure? You must admit that seems to work pretty well. And putting that gap in UX 14 actually avoids having to insert anything between UX 13 and 14 while the X-Men are recuperating. 

To object, David, you need to show us how there can't possibly be a gap in UX 14 as I propose it. You can't just say that there "clearly" is no gap. Yes, that's not the way the story was originally written, but we're trying to retrofit what has been stated to be canonical continuity implants here. If MARVELS forced a change in how the original comics' chronologies are interpreted, then why can't FIRST CLASS? 

I've been a bit skeptical about First Class for a while because, as far as continuity implants go, it's more of a hack job than a number of other examples. But who better than the skeptics to go the extra mile to make things work? I noticed you were heading in that positive direction for a while, and I've picked up the baton. It sounds like you're retrenching now, just as we as a group seem to be making some headway. 

Oh, and Ocean Doot, I do appreciate your observations about how my proposed placements don't work in places. Let me do some rechecking and adjusting. Thanks!

Paul B.

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Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:26 pm 
By Dhall

Paul, I was editing my post above, at the same time you were posting, so that I could explain my statement. Please take a look at that post. I think Marvels 2 can be fit in an already existing gap. If not, well then, let's go with creating a gap as you outlined. I mean one thing is obvious, the chronology that we have now, needs to be changed to make Marvels 2 fit somewhere. 

And yes, I am feeling very frustrated, as I too feel FC is a hack job compared to many other books. 


>>>
And putting that gap in UX 14 actually avoids having to insert anything between UX 13 and 14 while the X-Men are recuperating. 
<<<

Good point, but I'm not completely against putting anything here, just anything where Xavier is sending the team out to do something. I think Xavier is being a bit of a mother hen between 13 and 14, and that the team has recovered at SOME POINT, between issues, but Xavier is being over cautious, and won't clear them for duty until the first few pages of 14. 


Dave

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Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:18 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Ocean Doot wrote:
>>>
If Cerebro is really not seen in this issue, I'd suggest putting it somewhere before issue 11 of the original series. FC 6 is the Skrull issue, in which the X-Men hypothesize at one point that the impostors are "the Brotherhood." 
<<<

Carp. I forgot about the Brotherhood reference. 

I agree with Ocean Doot, in that XM: FC 6 works better before the Brotherhood 'breaks up,' if only to keep as many references intact as possible.(have I mentioned how much I enjoy Bobby injecting 'EVIL' into the Brotherhood of... Mutants every time they're mentioned? No? Well, now I have.  )


Paul O'Brien wrote:
>>>
The different costumes have been explained, and while it may be a little contrived for a superhero team to have a home and away strip, there's nothing inherently impossible about the concept. 
<<<

...that's brilliant! 'Home Team' & 'Away Team' jerseys. I love it. 


Ocean Doot wrote:
>>>
Got me thinking ... doesn't First Class 3 end with Professor X talking about dismantling this iteration of Cerebro because of what it did? So maybe First Class 3 should go in between UX 18 and UX 20, and it's the First Class AI version of Cerebro that is being "replaced" in UX 20. Would that make sense?
<<<

I kind of like that. I really need to finish what I'm doing and get those X-Books back out. 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
I've been a bit skeptical about First Class for a while because, as far as continuity implants go, it's more of a hack job than a number of other examples. 
<<<

Yup, we've been spoiled. Nothing will ever compare to the Invaders! 

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:21 am 
By Dhall

If we have to find a place for this thing, please note that in X-Men 1-31, Scott and Warren are romantic rivals for Jean, Warren gives up in issue 31, and Scott doesn't let himself get close to Jean until 32, as he is very worried about his eyebeams. FC 2 would have to occur sometime after 32, for it to make any sense.

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Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:15 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I've prepared a revised chronology, but I'll post it tonight, as I need to check on David's most recent post. 

Quickly, though, I do agree with Ocean Doot's placement of X:FC 6 in an earlier slot. I'd place it between UX 8 and 9, when Xavier is indeed "out of town" -- he's in the Balkans looking for Lucifer! 

I also agree with the placement for X:FC 3. I totally missed the Sentinel images in this issue. 

More later...

Paul B.

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Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:21 am 
By Jason Doty

Maybe Warren was trying to make her jealous, plus he didn't want to hear the Scarlet Witch say they are just friends, because his ego couldn't take it. Maybe thats what Jean has been telling him everytime he's tried to pick up on her BTS. 

Once again, I don't see this as a problem.

Last edited by Jason Doty on Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total. 

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Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:18 am 
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It's overstating things to suggest that Warren was part of a romantic triangle subplot. He's just a flirtatious playboy, and dotted over the years are a number of scenes where he flirts with his single teammate while Scott stands around looking irritated. But it's stretching to suggest that Warren was seriously trying to pursue her for the first thirty issues. She's just a single female within line of sight.

-- Paul O'Brien

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Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:47 am 
By Ocean Doot

"Quickly, though, I do agree with Ocean Doot's placement of X:FC 6 in an earlier slot. I'd place it between UX 8 and 9, when Xavier is indeed "out of town" -- he's in the Balkans looking for Lucifer! " 

Ooooh! That's brilliant! Dang, I wish I'd thought of that! 

This is great -- teamwork. Just like the X-Men taught us!

			*	*	*

Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:31 am 
By Ocean Doot

"It's overstating things to suggest that Warren was part of a romantic triangle subplot." 

Well, to be fair, the Jean-Scott-Warren triangle DID become very pronounced when Roy Thomas took over. Certainly by the mid-20s it was a key plot point, and it reached a boiling point in issue 26. 

But, since people are agreeing on placing FC 7 around circa UX 14, I agree that this really isn't a problem. At this point in the run, it's as Paul says -- Warren is just generally flirtacious.

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Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:38 pm 
By Dhall

No, I said FC 2 has to come after UX 32, not FC 7. FC 2 is the one where they go to Florida, and Jean and Scott are obviously already hooked up. 
Since they don't come together as a couple until UX 31-32.... 

Yes Angel would flirt with anyone female, but by the Roy Thomas era, he was very interested with Jean. It was a major plot point for a few issues. 

That doesn't preclude him from being interested in Wanda, circa UX 14 or so, by any means. 


Paul, I think I'm going to have to reverse myself, and say lets go ahead with a second UX 14 gap. Unless you see some other way to place FC 7. I could handle the Marvels 2 apps. being between 13 and 14, in the injury/recovery gap, if Need be, but Angel especially and Beast are a bit too active in FC 7, for my liking to put there. So a gap in UX 14, may indeed be the best placement we can hope to find for FC 7.

Last edited by Dhall on Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

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Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:49 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
Quickly, though, I do agree with Ocean Doot's placement of X:FC 6 in an earlier slot. I'd place it between UX 8 and 9, when Xavier is indeed "out of town" -- he's in the Balkans looking for Lucifer! " 
<<<

Ideally, FC 6 should occur before Zelda's first app. in UX 7. 

It's already established in UX 7 that Bobby comes into the coffee-a-go-go every once in a while, but not often, that he already knows Zelda's name, and he does tell Zelda that he's interested in her in that issue. 

Since Bobby seems more interested in other women in FC 6, we can assume that he's not dating Zelda yet. 

And since there is no Cerebro to be had, there's nothing prohibiting us from placing this earlier than most issues of FC. 

Another bonus of putting this before UX 7, is that we can then also not quibble over the name coffee @ go-go, or the very different look of the coffee shop in FC. We can just assume that Zelda worked at this place, then transfered to the coffee-a-go-go by UX 7. 

I suggest that between UX 6 and 7, is the best placement for FC 6.

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Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:11 pm 
By Dhall

In FC 3, there is both Juggernaut, and Sentinel images. So it has to be sometime after the UX 14-16. 


Now here's something I hadn't noticed before. 

At the end of the issue, once the action is over. Xavier says "I'm afraid this chamber is going to need much more work before I can use it reliably." 

That's probably going to be the only explanation we get for why it's never seen in UX for hundreds of issues. 

That said, FC 3 should be the very last time that we see this Cerebro-chamber in FC. This issue should go as late as possible.

			*	*	*

Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:35 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
Ideally, FC 6 should occur before Zelda's first app. in UX 7. 
<<<

That doesn't work. FC 6 must occur after Bobby first appears in his icy (not snowy) form in UX 8. 

Here's my revised chronology. I may not have addressed everyone's points, so I apologize. I've been working on this off-line, only to discover this lively exchange continues on. Anyway, here goes... 


UX 7 
The X-Men graduate. 
Hank and Bobby at the Coffee-A-Go-Go. 

UTSM 21 
Hank and Bobby introduce the rest of the X-Men to the Coffee-A-Go-Go. 
Bobby is snowy. 

UX 8 
Bobby turns icy. 
Xavier is in the Balkans, trying to find Lucifer. 
One week passes within this story. 

X:FC 6-FB 
The version 2.0 costumes are worn by Skrull imposters, so they must appear before now (and probably in public) so the Skrulls know to imitate them  thus, at some point, we may encounter an issue of X:FC that precedes this point. 
Mole Man (known to the press as Harvey Elder) has gigantic creatures attack a rural area. BTS, the FF pursue Mole an to a remote island. This is likely a never-before-published adventure shortly after A 12. 

X:FC 6 
Begins the day after X:FC 6-FB. 
Xavier is out of town, maybe on his mission to find Lucifer between UX 8 and 9. 
Zelda is seen at the Coffee-A-Go-Go, and Bobby is on the make for girls. This may be the last time the X-Men go to the caf before UX 14 (7-20). 
Cerebro is not seen in this issue, so its possible to place this issue before UX 12. 
Warren says that this has Magneto and the Brotherhood written all over it, so its likely before UX 11. 
Bobby is icy, so its after UX 8. 

UX 9 
The X-Men join Xavier in the Balkans. 

FF 35 
The FF encounter Xavier and Scott at State University. 

FF 36 
The X-Men attend Reeds and Sues engagement party. 

UX 10 
The X-Men meet Ka-Zar. 

UX 11 
The Stranger petrifies Mastermind and takes Magneto and Toad captive. 
Pietro and Wanda leave the Brotherhood. 

UX 12 
The X-Men learn about Cerebro when it detects Juggernaut (even though hes not a mutant!). 
Apparently, Cerebro can sound a loud claxon but cant speak. 

UX 13 
The battle with Juggernaut in which the male X-Men are injured. 

XMF 3 (13-22p1) 
It is a couple of weeks after UX 13 and before UX 14. 
The X-Men show signs of their injuries from UX 13. 
Magneto and Toad are captives of the Stranger. 

UX 14 (1-3p1) 
The X-Men recover from the injuries they suffered in the battle with Juggernaut. Xavier tells them theyve earned a vacation  our first one in years according to Warren (exaggerating). 

X:FC 1 
[Before they can prepare for a vacation, the X-Men are interrupted by] a disturbance at the botanical gardens in town, to which the X-Men respond in their version 2.0 costumes. The investigation leads the group to the Arctic. 
The X-Men know about Cerebro. 
A prototype of Cerebros frontal lobe chamber  the big spherical room  is shown. 

X:FC 2 
Xavier: If you remember, before our last adventure [which I interpret as X:FC 1]...I had promised you all a vacation, which I interpret as UX 14 (1-3p1). 
For their vacation, they go to the Worthingtons beachfront house in Florida, where they encounter the Lizard. 
The last time Connors was this bad was in ASM 6. 
Given the locale for this issue, no Cerebro is seen. 

X:FC 5 
Xavier uses Cerebro to locate Bobby (and the X-Men know it). 
Xavier meets Thor (they communicated with each other, but hadnt met in person in UX 9). 

X:FC 7-FB 
Beast uses Cerebro to locate Scarlet Witch, whos still in the country after UX 11. 
Obviously, Hank and Warren know Cerebros function for finding mutants. 
Warren starts seeing Wanda. 
This flashback occurs two weeks before X:FC 7. 

X:FC 7 
Cerebro teaches the students while Xavier is on vacation. 
Cerebro is good for more than finding mutants; its an artificial intelligence that can speak. 
Cerebro notes that Warren is not in attendance again for the fourth time in two weeks and 
Warren notes that this is date four with Wanda, so we can assume that hes been seeing Wanda for two weeks. 
The X-Men know Wandas and Pietros first names (Scott makes reference to them). 
They associate the siblings with the Brotherhood, not the Avengers. 
Mastermind is at Xaviers school, still petrified from the Stranger (UX 11). 
The last mutant search Cerebro has run is for Scarlet Witch in X:FC 7-FB two weeks earlier. 
Warrens fling with Wanda ends. 

UX 18  FB 
Magneto escapes the Strangers planet, leaving the Toad behind. 

M/H&L 97 (17-18) 
Magneto catches up to the fleeing Wanda and Pietro in the Balkans, but they escape him. 

A 16 ~ M/H&L 97 
Pietro and Wanda join the Avengers. 

A 17 
JIM 120 
A 18 
More appearances by Pietro and Wanda. 

UX 14 (3p2-6) 
The X-Men decide to take time off separately; this is not the vacation noted in UX 14 (1-3p1). 
Once they leave, Xavier reads a Daily Globe article about Bolivar Trask with the headline Mutant Menace! Eminent Anthropologist Says Mankind Faces Gravest Danger... 

MARVELS 2 (30-31p3) 
Phil Sheldon sees the same Daily Globe article (same headline). 
He encounters a microfilmed account of the X-Men attending Reeds and Sues engagement party (from FF 36). 

MARVELS 2 (31p4-32p4) 
Sheldon starts spending evenings in Greenwich Village, looking for the X-Men, and one night, he sees Iceman and Beast streak by. (The Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 2 #1 places Hank and Bobby here between 20p1 and 20p2 of UX 11, but that would mean that theres a good gap between Phils seeing the newspaper headline on Trask and Xaviers discovery about the highly publicized Trask  an odd thing for the worlds leading expert on mutants. I posit that the insertion of XMF 3 between UX 13 and 14 after the publication of the Index forced that gap and so necessitates a new placement for this segment of MARVELS 2.) 
The FF Fan Club are prepared to camp out all week to be at Reeds and Sues wedding. 

MARVELS 2 (32p5-32p6) 
Guests start arriving for Reeds and Sues wedding. 

FF@ 3 ~ M/H&L 1 ~ MARVELS 2 (33) 
Pietro and Wanda attend Reeds and Sues wedding as Avengers. 
The X-Men attend the wedding, back in version 1.0 costumes. 
Phil Sheldon takes pictures of the wedding. 

(After the wedding, Bobby and Hank go to Coffee-A-Go-Go, Warren has dinner with his parents on Long Island, Jean takes off in a train, and Scott finds himself in a cab.) 

UX 14 (7-20) ~ MARVELS 2 (34-45) 
That evening, Phil delivers his film of the wedding to Barney Bushkin at a bar as Xavier starts debates Trask on TV. Sentinels attack. 
So, the televised debate cant occur the very next evening after UX 14 (3p2-6) because of the time inserted by MARVELS 2. 
Zelda says that she hasnt seen Bobby or Hank in months (X:FC 6?; the months comment may be an exaggeration, especially if the X-Men were regulars who suddenly didnt show up for weeks). Bobby asks her out, but then has to leave, ticking Zelda off. 

UX 15 
UX 16 
UX 17 
UX 18 
The X-Men fight the Sentinels, then Magneto. 
Magneto destroys Cerebro. 

[Xavier tries to repair Cerebro, but isnt entirely successful, as seen below.] 

X:FC 3 
The version 2.0 costumes are back again. 
The X-Men are familiar with the Sentinels, so it must be after UX 18. 
The frontal lobe chamber appears. 
AI Cerebro backfires on Xavier and shuts down for maintenance. 
Xavier states, Im afraid this chamber is going to need much more work before I can use it reliably. 

UX 19 
Bobby and Hank double-date with Zelda and Vera. 

UX 20 
Xavier finishes installing this new Cerebro. (This version may not be the complete AI version, but a scaled-back version.)

Paul B.

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Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:50 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
FC 2 is the one where they go to Florida, and Jean and Scott are obviously already hooked up. 
<<<

I don't recall anyone calling Scott & Jean a couple in XM: FC 2. I do recall Professor X doing Scott a favor by getting Bobby away from them, which isn't to say that they're a couple, just that Scott likes Jean, and Professor X knows it. 

I think XM: FC 2 works just fine where Paul B. suggested. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Another bonus of putting this before UX 7, is that we can then also not quibble over the name coffee @ go-go, or the very different look of the coffee shop in FC. We can just assume that Zelda worked at this place, then transfered to the coffee-a-go-go by UX 7. 
<<<

That's assuming we'll never see Zelda at the Cofee@Go-Go again in First Class. There's still a special and an ongoing series to come, and somehow, I think she will pop up again. Probably at the Cofee@Go-Go. Also, wasn't Bobby snowy where you suggest? 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
At the end of the issue, once the action is over. Xavier says "I'm afraid this chamber is going to need much more work before I can use it reliably." 

That's probably going to be the only explanation we get for why it's never seen in UX for hundreds of issues. 

That said, FC 3 should be the very last time that we see this Cerebro-chamber in FC. This issue should go as late as possible.
<<<

Again, there's an ongoing on the way. What happens when/if an issue of that refers to XM: FC 3 and mentions that it's fixed now, but other references to the originals places it later in the run? 

Making assumptions like these will set up 'problems' for future issues. It's best to keep our options open so that placements in the future can be made easier. 

-edit- 

Dang it, Paul! You beat me to it!

Last edited by Col_Fury on Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:57 pm 
By Dhall

Col Fury: 
They're definitly a couple in X:FC 2. It's pretty obvious, without anybody calling them on it. (Wouldn't that sound a bit unnatural, if they did?) Has to come after UX 32. Scott didn't have the courage to even attempt to spend time with Jean in the period where Paul has FC 2. I can't see them being that close to each other, than going back to practically not talking to other each other, because Scott is afraid to ask her out. It makes no sense. 

>>>
Again, that's assuming we never see the Frontal Lobe Chamber ever again in First Class.
<<<

I think you're missing the point that these issues are meant to be placed out of order. FC 3 should be the last time (to date) that we see the "Frontal lobe chamber" as you call it, unless (of course) a future issue of FC contradicts that. 

We're not psychic here y'know. I can only see the issues that have been published... 


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Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:09 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Sorry about the edit, I was re-wording some of the stuff above, to make my point clearer, because I hit submit instead or preview. 

Dhall wrote:
>>>
I think you're missing the point that these issues are meant to be placed out of order.
<<<

Urm, pardon? I've made the out of publication order point several times in this thread. Heck, I brought it up, then Jason & Somebody verified it. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
FC 3 should be the last time (to date) that we see the "Frontal lobe chamber" as you call it, unless a future issue of FC contradicts that. 
We're not psychic here y'know. 
<<<

No, we're not.  But that doesn't mean we can't keep our options open, out of publication order or not, and it looks like we agree on that. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
They're definitly a couple in X:FC 2. It's pretty obvious, without anybody calling them on it. 
<<<

But no one states it in the book. There's no evidence that they're 'obviously' or 'defintely' a couple in XM: FC 2.


Dhall wrote:
>>>
I can't see them being that close to each other, than going back to practically not talking to other each other, because Scott is afraid to ask her out. It makes no sense.
<<<

Romance rarely does...  


Dhall wrote:
>>>
I can only see the issues that have been published... 
<<<

Exactly. 

Looks pretty good so far, Paul! Again, hopefully later this week I'll have the chance to read the books in this order.

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:06 am 
By Paul O'Brien
Director

If they were meant to be an existing couple in FIRST CLASS #2, why would the Professor need to arrange matters so that Scott could spend time with Jean?

-- Paul O'Brien

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Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:04 am 
By Dhall

>>>
If they were meant to be an existing couple in FIRST CLASS #2, why would the Professor need to arrange matters so that Scott could spend time with Jean?
<<<

As it's the first vacation they've had outside of New York, and that all the Professor really does is get rid of Bobby, so that Scott and Jean can spend some time together, he's doing Scott a favor. 

That's not really the most important thing here though. 

You won't normally find me giving Jeff Parker any accolades for his research on FC, but this is the one time he deserves it. 
Do you see the scene in FC 2, where Jean is encouraging Scott to take off his glasses and cut loose with his eyebeams? 

That's a direct followup to a scene in UX 32, where Scott explains to Jean that the reason that he keeps the world at arms length is that he is afraid of hurting someone with his eyebeams. 

Jean has a though balloon about how she'll never rest until she breaks through Scott's shell. 

So that's exactly what she's doing in FC 2. It's the one really clever piece of continuity that I've found in FC to date. 

I don't have the time to quote the whole scene word for word this morning, but it's there in UX 32.

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Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:07 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
They're definitly a couple in X:FC 2. It's pretty obvious, without anybody calling them on it. 
<<<

I went back and reviewed this issue, and I have to say I agree with everyone else on this. You're reading far too much into the scene. I see a couple of friends hanging out together. At most, there may be a little romantic tension in the air (and that's reading something into the scene), but it does not read "couple" to me at all. And I agree that teen crushes and romances/friendships can run hot and cold, with inconsistent behavior running rampant. The Scott/Jean thing here does not rank high as a factor for placement here, IMHO.

Paul B.

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Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:13 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
Do you see the scene in FC 2, where Jean is encouraging Scott to take off his glasses and cut loose with his eyebeams? 

That's a direct followup to a scene in UX 32, where Scott explains to Jean that the reason that he keeps the world at arms length is that he is afraid of hurting someone with his eyebeams. 

Jean has a though balloon about how she'll never rest until she breaks through Scott's shell. 

So that's exactly what she's doing in FC 2. It's the one really clever piece of continuity that I've found in FC to date. 
<<<

That's exactly why I find it suspicous.  

Seriously, I'll have to dig out UX 32 and take a look. But without having done so, I'd say it's entirely possible that Scott withdraws into a shell again after the scene in FC 2. Nothing tells me that suddenly Scott isn't afraid of his eye beams after FC 2. FC 2 reads as a momentary release in a situation in which he knew he couldn't hurt anyone. He's still in hell after this.Paul B.

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Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:48 am 
By Ocean Doot

I have to admit, I actually see Dhalls point on FC2  When I first read the issue, I thought the characterization of Cyclops seemed way off. He is surprisingly comfortable with Jean, and honestly I think the worst dialogue of the whole series comes when he thanks Prof. X for arranging alone-time with Jean by telling the Professor, You are the MAN. 

Iceman, Angel ... even the Beast  heck, even Jean!  I could just about buy that line coming out of their mouths. But Scott telling Charles hes the man? Ugh. 

That said, I think it probably has to be chalked up to just inappropriate characterization on Parkers part. I dont think its a continuity problem, I think its just a Scott is off problem. 

On the other hand, heres a thought. Instead of trying to make FC 2 a sequel to the scene in X-Men 32, what if FC 2 is actually the start of a real chemistry between Scott and Jean that finds its <culmination> in X-Men 32? 

Which is to say, perhaps the lake scene in FC 2 should be interpreted as the scene between Scott and Jean that makes them become seriously interested in each other, whereas up to that point it had been just a typical adolescent crush? That would actually make the Scott-Jean awkwardness (in UX issues placed chronologically after FC2) make more sense, in a crazy way. After the scene in the lake, they REALLY like each other now, so suddenly theyre really scared of making the wrong move. Hence, awkwardness for the next 18 issues of X-Men. 

Finally, Im compelled to point out that the scene in UX 32 is elaborated on in UX 138. The scene in UX 32 ends, as Dhall says, with Jean thinking to herself that shes going to break Scotts shell. But in UX 138, the scene continues further, ending in a passionate kiss between Scott and Jean. Given that, placing FC 2 AFTER that scene no longer seems so natural. Having gone that far in UX 138, if they were then left all alone on a beach not long afterward... man, theyd be all over each other!

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Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:55 am 
By Ocean Doot

Regarding First Class 3. Since the Sentinels are already a familiar sight in this issue, it has to go post UX 14-16. 
Got me thinking ... doesn't First Class 3 end with Professor X talking about dismantling this iteration of Cerebro because of what it did? 

-- Me, April 9, 9:46pm 


In FC 3, there is both Juggernaut, and Sentinel images. So it has to be sometime after the UX 14-16. 
Now here's something I hadn't noticed before. 
At the end of the issue, once the action is over. Xavier says "I'm afraid this chamber is going to need much more work before I can use it reliably." 

-- Dhall, April 11, 2:11am 


Tarnation, I think Dhalls ignoring me! 

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Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:51 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Ocean Doot wrote: 
>>>
I dont think its a continuity problem, I think its just a Scott is off problem.
<<<

I agree. With a series of FC quality, we're bound to see some gaffes in characterization. But is that enough to throw the series out of continuity? It shouldn't be. Heck, by that reckoning, we'd have to throw Civil War out of the canon!  


Ocean Doot wrote:
>>>
Given that, placing FC 2 AFTER that scene no longer seems so natural. Having gone that far in UX 138, if they were then left all alone on a beach not long afterward... man, theyd be all over each other!
<<<

Well, maybe they were between panels! Seriously, Ocean, you do make a good point there. The "you da man" moment of X:FC 2 (however out of character it is) after the profession of love in UX 138-FB doesn't seem like the right sequence of events.

Paul B.

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Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:59 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
Tarnation, I think Dhalls ignoring me! 
<<<

Never! There are just SO many posts in this thread....


>>>
On the other hand, heres a thought. Instead of trying to make FC 2 a sequel to the scene in X-Men 32, what if FC 2 is actually the start of a real chemistry between Scott and Jean that finds its <culmination> in X-Men 32?

Which is to say, perhaps the lake scene in FC 2 should be interpreted as the scene between Scott and Jean that makes them become seriously interested in each other, whereas up to that point it had been just a typical adolescent crush? That would actually make the Scott-Jean awkwardness (in UX issues placed chronologically after FC2) make more sense, in a crazy way. After the scene in the lake, they REALLY like each other now, so suddenly theyre really scared of making the wrong move. Hence, awkwardness for the next 18 issues of X-Men. 
<<<

Hmmn, I like..... 

Really the thing here, looking at it again, is that the FC2 scene could be read either way, as a prequel or a sequel to the scene in UX 32. 

If we read it as a prequel, then the characterization of Scott is really really off. However, that's true of most of the characters in most of the FC issues. 

If we read it as a sequel, then there some cringeworthy "you da man" type dialogue.... ugh.....darn we're stuck with that either way.... 

Well one bonus to it being a prequel is that's one less issue to stick between 39 and 40..... 

Ok let's go with this.....

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Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:31 pm 
By Jason Doty

Thanks to Paul B. for really getting us to middle ground. Now let's hope that Jeff Parker actually comes by and reads this thread.

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Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:38 pm 
By Dhall

Here's a question that I would like everyone to answer. 

I think most of us agree that as far as continuity implant series go, X-Men: First Class is not the best researched, or best executed. (I'm sure someone will disagree, that's ok.) 

Speaking generally there are three things that get a series labeled 'non-canon' 
1) Marvel stating so (which doesn't apply here) 
2) Obviously botched retellings of previously seen events (Also not applicable) 
3) A critical mass of inconsistencies that make the stories untenable (quoting Paul B.) 

Now personally, I think the multitude of errors, which range from the trivial, to the truly humongous, are already enough to put this outside of 616- continuity. 

I understand that probably 80% of the posters on this thread wouldn't agree with me at this point. 

My question for everyone is this, what in your opinion would it take for us to reach the point where things become untenable with FC? 

I'd like to achieve at least a vague consensus on this, because with a ongoing series coming, we'll have many months to debate the issue, and 
I'd like to see some type of threshold established, rather than a lot of no it isn't canon, yes it is canon type squabbling every time a new issue comes out. 

Even if we can't agree on any one test, I think getting everyone on record, would help, because then at least we could understand where everyone else is coming from. 


Thanks! 

Dave

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Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:49 pm 
By Ocean Doot

"My question for everyone is this, what in your opinion would it take for us to reach the point where things become untenable with FC?" 

Personally, it was the "Jason Wyngarde" gaff that did it for me. That just annoys me to no end. So I'm already over the rainbow. (I will not be getting FC 8 or beyond.) 

But since it's really up to the "Board of Directors", I'm just going along with the notion that it's canon, and trying to help out in getting the issues placed. (Also, Silver Age X-Men is really my only area of expertise, so darned if I'm going to let a thread go by where I can actually be useful!)

			*	*	*

Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:53 pm 
By Ocean Doot

So, all this talk of old Silver Age X-Men has inspired me to go back and read the old Lee-Kirby issues in order. I read issue 8 tonight, and what do you suppose I came across? 

Page 11, panel 4. 
The X-Men (all of em except the Beast, mind you), are flying in a helicopter looking for the Uncanny Unus. One of them asks, and I quote, What makes you think theres a new mutant at large, Cyclops? Cyclops reply? 

Professor Xs Cerebro machine detected his presence ... and the readings seemed to indicate this neighborhood. 

Way to keep your precious secret, Cyclops. And again, thats in issue 8. 

But hey, keep arguing that Cerebro was a secret from the other X-Men until issue 13. Honestly. Whatever keeps you warm at night. :P 

-- Doot

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Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:01 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

>>>
But since it's really up to the "Board of Directors", I'm just going along with the notion that it's canon, and trying to help out in getting the issues placed.
<<<

Don't look at it that way. The MCP is more than the Board of Directors. In the context of this thread, the members of the Board of Directors who are posting in this thread are debating the canon issue with the same weight as everyone else. 

Also, considering the amount of debate going into this thread, it'll take many, MANY months before this series would be entered into the MCP, (and that's only if the debate's finally resolved that it's truly indeed canon).Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:18 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

While it is the Board of Directors who reserves the authority to make the final decision on whether a title is canon, I would hope that the Directors would weigh the points made by everyone here, in reaching a verdict. 


watching: veronica mars

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Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:33 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
Way to keep your precious secret, Cyclops. And again, thats in issue 8.

But hey, keep arguing that Cerebro was a secret from the other X-Men until issue 13. Honestly. Whatever keeps you warm at night. :P 
<<<

Well to be fair, the Beast was the one who had no idea what Cerebro was in issue #12 and the Beast was the only one who wasn't with the team when Cyke spoiled the "secret" in #8. 

Everyone else was startled by the noise, and had never seen the actual machine before #12, no matter that Cyclops had let the name slip once or twice. 

Good catch though, I'm glad to see other people actually reading some of the issues.

			*	*	*

Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:37 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
While it is the Board of Directors who reserves the authority to make the final decision on whether a title is canon, I would hope that the Directors would weigh the points made by everyone here, in reaching a verdict.
<<<

I have no doubt they will be fair when the time comes.


>>>
Also, considering the amount of debate going into this thread, it'll take many, MANY months before this series would be entered into the MCP, (and that's only if the debate's finally resolved that it's truly indeed canon).
<<<

Kevin, I am so happy to see everyone keeping an open mind, and actually debating. That's something that sets this message board apart from so many others.


Personally, it was the "Jason Wyngarde" gaff that did it for me. That just annoys me to no end. So I'm already over the rainbow. (I will not be getting FC 8 or beyond.) 

Thanks Ocean Doot, that's exactly the sort of thing that I'm looking for. 

For me it was a combination of the new Cerebro (I just can't make myself believe that Xavier had that down the basement the whole time) and the "Jason Wyngarde" gaff. 

But yes, I will help with both placement, AND pointing out errors. 

Dave

			*	*	*

Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:11 am 
By Ocean Doot

To Kevin W and Administrator, 

Well, that's cool. I honestly didn't realize it worked like that. I didn't mean to sound bitchy. I realize now that putting "Board of Directors" in quotes comes off as perhaps a little derisive, but no derision was intended. 

I'm enjoying the debate as well -- quite a bit.

			*	*	*

Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:31 am 
By Ocean Doot

"Well to be fair, the Beast was the one who had no idea what Cerebro was in issue #12 and the Beast was the only one who wasn't with the team when Cyke spoiled the "secret" in #8. " 

That's true. Yeah, it actually kind of works if you squint a bit. I have a feeling it's just luck that the Beast was the one asking "What does 'Cerebro' mean," and he was the one who wasn't there when Cyclops used the term four issues earlier. If Lee actually did that deliberately, it would be demonstrating an uncharacteristically good memory on Lee's part. 

(By the way, I read issue 12 last night as well, and I know someone suggested that you could reinterpret Beast's question to be, "What does Cerebro mean [to say by beeping so loud]?" But the text doesn't really support that. Professor X's answer is something like, "Cerebro is my mutant-detecting machine," which would be a silly answer if Beast was really asking about the noise rather than the name. 

"Everyone else was startled by the noise, and had never seen the actual machine before #12, no matter that Cyclops had let the name slip once or twice." 

True, true. Okay, so the chronology is: 

UX 7: Professor X reveals the machine, and the name, and the desk interface of Cerebro to Scott, and no one else, and tells Scott to keep it a secret. 

UX 8: Cyclops is free and easy with the name Cerebro around all the other X-Men (except Beast, whos AWOL at the moment) so I guess really the Prof just meant to keep the machine hidden and secret, not the name. Or else Scott fd up. Im almost inclined to suggest the latter, because ... 

UX 10: Professor X mentions Cerebro around all the other students. Dhall, youd suggested that perhaps he was whispering just to Scott. Why would he have to whisper, if Scott already blew the name? Who knows, but presumably he WAS whispering, because obviously Beast didnt catch it. Or else Beast just wasnt paying close attention. Maybe Scott really DID screw up when he mentioned the name in UX 8, and hasnt told the Prof yet. 

UX 11: At the end of the issue, everybody is gathered in Xaviers office, happily celebrating that the Brotherhood of Mutants is dissolved. Then ALL THE X-MEN EXCEPT SCOTT LEAVE, and Professor X opens the desk panel to reveal Cerebro. Huh. So I guess the desk unit IS still a secret to everyone else. Fair enough! Anyway, Charles removes tiny little cards with the names of the Brotherhood members (silly!), since they can be considered out of action. Then Cerebro starts a-wailin. 

UX 12: All the X-Men come running, wondering what the screeching is. Scott says they have to leave immediately, because theyre not allowed to know about Cerebro. Beast asks what that word means, and Professor X explains to him and the rest of the X-Men, because there should be no secrets among us now! 

So, fair enough. I guess, looking at it again, it does make sense for the First Class version of Cerebro to not make an appearance until post-UX 12. 

I still look at this collection of issues and kind of see it as a complete red herring, but thats just me. (I mean, I know this isnt a chronology issue, but can someone tell me WHY it was so important that Cerebro be a secret in issues 7 through 11? Literally NOTHING in those issues would have unfolded differently if the entire team knew the machine existed. The whole secret deal is just silly to me.)

			*	*	*

Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:19 am 
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
My question for everyone is this, what in your opinion would it take for us to reach the point where things become untenable with FC?
<<<

A fair question, but I don't accept the underlying premise. If Marvel and the writer intend the story to be in continuity, then it becomes almost impossible to argue that they're wrong. You really would have to be looking at something on the level of the early issues of BLACK PANTHER, where the official line (that the issues weren't just canonical, but actually fitted into the Silver Age history somehow) was literally incomprehensible. 

So except in a truly exceptional case like that, once it's been established that the series is meant to be in continuity, there's no argument left to have. If the series doesn't fit, then that doesn't prove that it's not in continuity. It merely demonstrates that it's riddled with continuity errors. 

(Matters would be different if it wasn't clear whether FIRST CLASS was meant to be canonical; in that case, you could point to major continuity problems and use them as evidence that it wasn't meant to be canonical in the first place. But that doesn't arise here because authorial and publisher intention would seem to be clear beyond doubt.)

-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:15 pm 
By metaldragon

>>>
(I mean, I know this isnt a chronology issue, but can someone tell me WHY it was so important that Cerebro be a secret in issues 7 through 11? Literally NOTHING in those issues would have unfolded differently if the entire team knew the machine existed. The whole secret deal is just silly to me.)
<<<

I suppose Professor X thought it was finally safe to tell the rest of the X-Men all about Cerebro at that point because Magneto seemed out of the picture permanently. If Magneto got his hands on it, he'd be able to find other mutants for the Brotherhood. We saw Angel being tortured by Magneto when he was captured [edit: in UX 5] so I guess Professor X was just making sure, the less who knew about Cerebro the safer the secret would be from Magneto
Last edited by metaldragon on Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thu Apr 12, 2007 1:31 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
I'm glad to see other people actually reading some of the issues.
<<<

What are you implying?  


Paul O'Brien wrote:
>>>
If Marvel and the writer intend the story to be in continuity, then it becomes almost impossible to argue that they're wrong.
<<<

Great point. 


Paul O'Brien wrote:
>>>
You really would have to be looking at something on the level of the early issues of BLACK PANTHER, where the official line (that the issues weren't just canonical, but actually fitted into the Silver Age history somehow) was literally incomprehensible. 
<<<

Hoo boy, I remember that. But we found a way to make that work, too. 


Ocean Doot wrote:
>>>
I'm enjoying the debate as well -- quite a bit.
<<<

Same here. 

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:18 pm 
By Ocean Doot

"I guess Professor X was just making sure, the less who knew about Cerebro the safer the secret would be from Magneto" 

Hm. Fair enough. I'll buy that!

			*	*	*

Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:16 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
Dhall, youd suggested that perhaps he was whispering just to Scott. Why would he have to whisper, if Scott already blew the name? 
<<<

Perhaps because at the point I'd written that, I'd overlooked that scene in UX 8. Doot, it happens. 

:D

			*	*	*

Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:26 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
If Marvel and the writer intend the story to be in continuity, then it becomes almost impossible to argue that they're wrong. You really would have to be looking at something on the level of the early issues of BLACK PANTHER, where the official line (that the issues weren't just canonical, but actually fitted into the Silver Age history somehow) was literally incomprehensible. 
<<<

Paul, I had to chuckle at your post "where the official line that the issues weren't just canonical, but actually fitted into the Silver Age history somehow" as this portion of your remarks bears no relation to the current situation. no sir 
 

>>>
So except in a truly exceptional case like that, once it's been established that the series is meant to be in continuity, there's no argument left to have. If the series doesn't fit, then that doesn't prove that it's not in continuity. It merely demonstrates that it's riddled with continuity errors.
<<<

So you're saying that to you, no matter how big the continuity errors, you don't think something could be non-canon, if Marvel says it is canon? 

These are all hypothetical situations of course, not likely to happen in FC, BUT 

What if the X-Men meet Power Pack? 
What if Xavier met Lilandra 50 issues too early? 
What if we have the all-Wolverine issue? 
What if Bobby elopes with Jean's sister? 

I could go on, but my point is, Is there nothing that could be shown in a future FC that would make you think this can't be canon? Or are there some things (and this would be a completely subjective point, different for everyone) that just CAN'T happen without knocking a series out of canon? 

Dave

			*	*	*

Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:03 am 
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I can envisage a situation where the deviations from established history are so fundamental as to indicate that they're no longer treating the series as in-continuity. But, yeah, as long as Marvel are clear that the series is canonical, I would be prepared to regard virtually anything as a simple continuity error. 

You can explain away almost anything when you start taking artistic licence into account, and start ignoring intractable continuity errors. It makes life so much easier!

-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:56 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
I can envisage a situation where the deviations from established history are so fundamental as to indicate that they're no longer treating the series as in-continuity. 
<<<

Everyone is going to have their own definition of which deviations are fundamental, and which ones can be overlooked as simple continuity errors.

There are some things that even I can overlook, and there are one or two that I would regard as fundamental deviations, so far in FC.

We're probably going to have to see what develops in the ongoing.


>>>
You can explain away almost anything when you start taking artistic licence into account, and start ignoring intractable continuity errors. It makes life so much easier!
<<<

much less fun though...  

Now off the topic of canon, shouldn't a continuity implant series be expected to fall into established continuity? 
I mean FC may or may not be 'canon' but it's sure not in continuity with other comics. 

Also shouldn't a continuity implant series show us something important, rather than just a bunch of one shots that have no bearing on the series as a whole?

			*	*	*

Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:47 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote:
>>>
I can envisage a situation where the deviations from established history are so fundamental as to indicate that they're no longer treating the series as in-continuity. 

Everyone is going to have their own definition of which deviations are fundamental, and which ones can be overlooked as simple continuity errors.
<<<

If you're seeking hard and fast rules, you'll probably be disappointed. It's the best we can do, to provide general guidelines and standards, against which to apply the questionable books.


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Also shouldn't a continuity implant series show us something important, rather than just a bunch of one shots that have no bearing on the series as a whole?
<<<

*shrug* From an artistic standpoint, a continuity implant series should entertain; from a publishing standpoint, it should sell. 


watching: american justice

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Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:41 pm 
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Actually, I think continuity implant series are generally better off steering clear of trying to add important new events. You can't do anything TOO significant because it would beg the question of why we haven't heard about it till now - it's technically possible, but it rarely rings true.

-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:41 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Two examples of what I consider to be good continuity implant series -- Untold Tales of Spider-Man and X-Men: the Hidden Years -- adhered to established continuity quite well and still managed to entertain without adding very important events. I don't know how they sold, but they go to prove that things can be done right. 

The first Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes started off okay but got more and more awkward to place in established continuity as the series unfolded. This series was guilty of taking established canonical content and mucking about with it rather than sticking with new content that could be inserted between previously published works. The series turned out to be irreconcilable with canon. Expect a discussion of the second Earth's Mightiest Heroes limited series once the last issue comes out. It raises some of the points we've been discussing here.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:51 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

It's probably obvious what my favorite implant series is... Great real world research, Silver Age research, and Golden Age research. Nothing can top the Invaders!* 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
The first Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes started off okay but got more and more awkward to place in established continuity as the series unfolded. This series was guilty of taking established canonical content and mucking about with it rather than sticking with new content that could be inserted between previously published works. The series turned out to be irreconcilable with canon. Expect a discussion of the second Earth's Mightiest Heroes limited series once the last issue comes out. It raises some of the points we've been discussing here.
<<<

I have to admit only partially remembering the reasons for the first series not fitting... but we'll save that for a different topic.  

*In my eyes, anyway. 

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:15 pm 
By Dhall

Would someone briefly explain what happened with Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes? Did it start out with a series of small problems, or were there some fairly jarring ones? What was the final nail in the coffin?

			*	*	*

Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:00 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Looks pretty good so far, Paul! Again, hopefully later this week I'll have the chance to read the books in this order.
<<<

I finally had a chance to flip through the books, and it still looks pretty good to me. Nice work, Paul B.! 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Would someone briefly explain what happened with...
<<<

I think I'll go ahead and start a different thread for that, for fear of this topic going completely off the rails...

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:04 am 
By Dhall

ok, so it looks like A:EMH fell through the cracks due to one gross plot discrepancy. The only thing so far that rises to that level in X:FC is the Jason Wyngarde mention, which does raise issues about the Dark Phoenix Saga. We may as well keep going with FC, and see what other gross plot discrepancies may appear in later issues. 

There are a ton of minor discrepancies, and from just a casual reading of the A:EMH threads, it sounds like there may be more of these in X:FC than in that series. 

How many times do we need to see the same mistake across several issues before we it makes no sense to call it an art error, or artistic license?

			*	*	*

Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:23 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Keep in mind, though, A: EMH is still unresolved. 

But you're right, A: EMH has more discrepancies than XM: FC. A: EMH told stories set around pages and panels of Avengers 1-16, whereas XM: FC tells stories set around issues of Uncanny, and I still think both can fit."Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:28 am 
By Ocean Doot

"Perhaps because at the point I'd written that, I'd overlooked that scene in UX 8. Doot, it happens. " 

I wasn't getting on your case, Dave. Sorry if it reads that way. I was just once again belaboring the point about the inconsistency of the original issues, when it comes to Cerebro. 

BTW, I've continued to re-read those Silver Age issues over the weekend, and I've now read the ones where Jean is pulled out of Xavier's by her parents. Dave, what was your bone of contention regarding this?

			*	*	*

Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:57 pm 
By Dhall


I wasn't getting on your case, Dave. Sorry if it reads that way. 

No worries.

>>>
BTW, I've continued to re-read those Silver Age issues over the weekend, and I've now read the ones where Jean is pulled out of Xavier's by her parents. Dave, what was your bone of contention regarding this?
<<<

None that I'm aware of. We were discussing two things at that point. Possible placements for FC, and the more abstract (and not completely pertinent to this thread) idea of when Jean & Co. found the time to finish their college education at Xavier's. 

Regarding Placement, (and this is from memory, the full details are much earlier in the thread) Jean quits the X-Men in issue 24, rejoins in 27, and is taking classes at Metro up through the period when the team leaves for Europe to find Professor Xavier. It pretty much means that FC (as we've seen it so far) can't occur between issues 24 and 39.

As it's not necessary to place anything we've seen in that time frame, it's not a big deal. Jean's father is pretty adamant that she's not been getting much, if any education since she graduated in issue 7, and thus wants her to go to Metro instead of Xavier's.



[/quote]

			*	*	*

Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:58 am 
By metaldragon

OK, the only issue I managed to find of this so far is X:FC 7 (small towns suck...) and, if I understand things correctly from what's been said here, it looks like X:FC 6 goes between UX 8 & 9 (Brotherhood references), X:FC 7 during UX 14 (only spot for it?), X:FC 2 between UX 31 & 32 (Scott & Jean begin dating?), and X:FC 4 between either 39 & 40 or 40 & 41 (After Juggernaut story in UX 32-33)...? Does this sound about right? 

As far as I can tell, scrolling back through all this, X:FC 1, 3, and 5 are the only ones not really locked in. (Sorry Paul but they CAN'T fit during UX 14: only 2 days take place in that issue.) 

I did some Essential reading and found another vacation announcement... in UX 19! True, the Cerebro desk interface was destroyed by Magneto in 18 and the 5th panel on page 4 of UX 20 shows Professor X finishing the installation of a "new Cerebro" with a note mentioning it's destruction in UX 18. But... in UX 19 Professor X informs them that the Mimic is not a mutant because "my Cebero machine registers negative!" So he must have got at least the main part of Cerebro (the Kirby creation in the "West Wing" from UX 7) working before UX 19. 

So, there are 3 gaps around here before Jean leaves for Metro: between UX 18 & 19 (but Cerebro damaged/being repaired), 19 & 20 (Cerebro partially working/still being repaired), and 21 & 22 (Cerebro working, with new, wall interface). Would any of those issues fit here?"

May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:40 am 
By metaldragon

Oh! Sorry, Paul, I missed out your X:FC 3 placement between UX 18 & 19. 

So that leaves 1 and 5?"

May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:32 am 
By Ocean Doot

"X:FC 2 between UX 31 & 32 (Scott & Jean begin dating?)" 

No, I believe the majority vote was to put X:FC 2 at an earlier point. This is the issue in which Professor X mentions an interrupted vacation. 

(Actually, since you point out that UX 19 has another aborted vacation in it, maybe X:FC 2 should go in between UX 19 and UX 20?) 

"So that leaves 1 and 5?" 

I thought Paul B had actually placed all seven issues? This reminds me, though -- FC 5 is the one with Thor, right? 

In UX 9, with the Avengers, there's a bit where Professor X communicates with Thor telepathically, and Thor says something like, "What ho? Someone speaking directly into my head, but it be not a wizard or god of Asgard? What sorcery is this?" You know, typical Thor-babble ... however, it does imply that this is the first time Thor has been in communication mentally with a telepathic human. 

I believe Thor communicates with Professor X telepathically in X:FC 5, so that would imply X:FC 5 being after UX 9. Which I think is already what has been decided, but -- well, it's just another bit of corroboration, I guess.

			*	*	*

Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:17 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Ocean Doot wrote: 
>>>
I thought Paul B had actually placed all seven issues? 
<<<

I do believe I did, buried somewhere back in this thread. Be aware that there are two such posts, with the second one being a revision of the first.


metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Sorry Paul but they CAN'T fit during UX 14: only 2 days take place in that issue.
<<<

I think I made the point that MARVELS 2 already inserted a span of time within UX 14 and so the reference to "the very next evening" in UX 14 will have to be ignored. And I suggested opening another gap at a slightly earlier point in UX 14 to put X:FC 1, 2 ,5, and 7. 

I'm losing track at this point, but I'm not sure that my second posting of a chronology has been superceded by a more on-target arrangement.Paul B.

			*	*	*

Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:39 pm 
By metaldragon

I believe there is a way to preserve the time scale in UX 14 and incorporate the Marvels 2 parts. If the newspapers Phil is looking at are previous interviews with Trask about his views on mutants, they could have just re-printed some of the materials to get the big story about his new method of "dealing" with mutants printed within (exageration) "minutes" in UX 14. Then the scene where Phil spots Iceman and Beast could stay between UX 10 & 11 as per the Index. 

With the original timescale, there is only just room enought for X:FC 7 on the morning of the first day after they get their clean bill of health and before they go on vacation, and X:FC 1 & 5 could go in earier/later gaps. How about X:FC 5 going sometime between UX 9 and UX 11 and X:FC 1 sometime in the gaps around UX 18 - 23?

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:55 pm 
By Dhall

I would be happier if we could only put X:FC 7 in the middle of UX 14 (where it doesn't belong...but might have to be placed) 

It really skews the time line if you start sticking multiple issues in there... 
and there's really no reason to place other issues into a gap you created specifically for FC 7, if there are other places those issues can go.

			*	*	*

Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:22 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
If the newspapers Phil is looking at are previous interviews with Trask about his views on mutants, they could have just re-printed some of the materials to get the big story about his new method of "dealing" with mutants printed within (exageration) "minutes" in UX 14.
<<<

But if there were some new development with Trask, why wouldn't the Bugle run a new headline about that? Why reprint a previous front page and interior page exactly as it had appeared in a previous edition -- one that would have run weeks before? (Remember there are at least "two weeks" between UX 13 and 14 as noted in XMF 3.) From a news publishing standpoint, that just doesn't make sense. It looks like a retread of old news and who wants to buy that? Also, placing Trask's arrival on the news scene weeks before UX 14 dilutes Xavier's sense of urgency in that issue. Why would Xavier act only after seeing a retread of old news?

It seems clear that the paper in MARVELS 2 is meant to be the same edition Xavier reads in UX 14. I think that's a detail the compilers of the Index overlooked when placing Bobby and Hank in MARVELS 2 between panels of UX 11.

Just wondering why folks want to preserve the sanctity of that "the very next evening" narrative text in UX 14. I'm usually the stickler for temporal references like this, but this one doesn't seem to hold up after the publication of continuity implants decades after UX 14 came out.


metaldragon wrote:
>>>
How about X:FC 5 going sometime between UX 9 and UX 1
<<<

I don't know. Where do we seem to be going with the whole Cerebro issue? If we still want to place Cerebro appearances in X:FC after UX 12, that won't work.


metaldragon wrote:
>>>
and X:FC 1 sometime in the gaps around UX 18 - 23?
<<<

I suppose that depends on what chronology looks best for Cerebro.Paul B.

			*	*	*

Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:07 pm 
By metaldragon

(Remember there are at least "two weeks" between UX 13 and 14 as noted in XMF 3.)

There is a difference between the XMF 3 placement and what you are proposing. Yes, 2 weeks of the male X-Men recovering from the battle with the Juggernaut works fine between the end of UX 13 and before the opening of UX 14 as long as Angel is not shown using his wings, the Beast is on crutches, and Cyclops & Iceman are not at full strength (no missions). 

The flashback in X:FC 7 could take place during those 2 weeks of recovery where XMF 3 scene also takes place. It actually makes sense if Angel cut class in X:FC 7 because he wanted to take Wanda flying for the first time since they started dating (and to get a head start on his vacation!  ). He wasn't able to do that before the opening scene in UX 14. 

I think the newspaper thing in Marvels was a mistake and I tried to explain it as things stand. It would almost make less sense to me for a tv station to scedule Xavier and Trask's debate 2 weeks after the news hit the newspaper. By then it would be stale news as you say. I'm sure Xavier would have felt it urgent enough to give the tv people a telepathic nudge to scedule it, hmmm... the next day maybe...?  

Someone else postulated earlier here that maybe Xavier hadn't read any newspapers in a while (since before UX 11?) and only just discovered what had been printed 2 weeks ago as he was catching up on his reading? It's messy no matter which way you look at it.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:01 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Where do we seem to be going with the whole Cerebro issue? If we still want to place Cerebro appearances in X:FC after UX 12, that won't work. 
<<<

I'm pretty sure we agreed that Cerebro can't make any appearances in XM: FC until after UX 12. The only issue of XM: FC that doesn't feature Cerebro so far is the Skrull issue, so it can go before UX 12.

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:48 am 
By Dhall

>>>
Just wondering why folks want to preserve the sanctity of that "the very next evening" narrative text in UX 14. I'm usually the stickler for temporal references like this, but this one doesn't seem to hold up after the publication of continuity implants decades after UX 14 came out.
<<<

Given that X:FC 7 takes place in a single morning, might it not be possible to do just that? And if the Marvel references preclude "the very next evening" 
then can we refrain from compounding the problem by not sticking more than the Marvel issue, and X:FC 7 in there?

			*	*	*

Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:06 am 
By Paul Boucier
Director

DHall wrote: 
>>>
And if the Marvel references preclude "the very next evening" 
then can we refrain from compounding the problem by not sticking more than the Marvel issue, and X:FC 7 in there?
<<<

I really don't follow that if a gap of time has to exist in UX 14, it somehow "compounds a problem" by inserting more content in that gap. What exactly is the "problem?" I look at it as an opportunity.  


metaldragon wrote:
>>>
It would almost make less sense to me for a tv station to schedule Xavier and Trask's debate 2 weeks after the news hit the newspaper. 
<<<

Actually, taking a while to schedule a debate on TV makes perfect sense to me.


metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Someone else postulated earlier here that maybe Xavier hadn't read any newspapers in a while (since before UX 11?) and only just discovered what had been printed 2 weeks ago as he was catching up on his reading? 
<<<

This theory also presumes that no one Xavier knows (including the X-Men and any professional colleagues of his) had seen the news story on Trask or alerted him about it. Again, with Xavier being the world's foremost authority on mutants, it seems odd that it would have taken the news this long to catch up with him. I can see if it were some unrelated news story, but someone's out there fanning anti-mutant fears.Paul B.

			*	*	*

Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:40 pm 
By metaldragon

This theory also presumes that no one Xavier knows (including the X-Men and any professional colleagues of his) had seen the news story on Trask or alerted him about it. Again, with Xavier being the world's foremost authority on mutants, it seems odd that it would have taken the news this long to catch up with him. I can see if it were some unrelated news story, but someone's out there fanning anti-mutant fears.

If you read The (Uncanny) X-Men from 1-14 and Marvels 2 you will see that anti-mutant fears were being fanned behind the scenes the whole time. UX 14/Marvels 2 wasn't an explosion that came out of nowhere. I suspect Trask had been putting out his message all this time. UX -1 suggest he had been working on his Sentinels behind the scenes since before UX 1. That's why I thought there might have been previous newspaper articles by Trask, maybe in smaller, sensationalist rags. It wasn't until his promised big reveal of the Sentinels in UX 14 that the media took him seriously.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:57 pm 
By metaldragon

>>>
I'm pretty sure we agreed that Cerebro can't make any appearances in XM: FC until after UX 12. The only issue of XM: FC that doesn't feature Cerebro so far is the Skrull issue, so it can go before UX 12.
<<<

Right. Sorry, the only issue of X:FC I managed to find here in smalltownsville so far was #7. If Cerebro is in 5, then dialogue will determine if it goes after Cerebro is repaired post-UX 20/21 or it gets inserted into the messy UX 14 gap before the FF wedding where the X-Men would have seen Thor again. 

Was there a vacation mentioned in X:FC 1? If so, it could go after the UX 19 interrupted vacation. If Cerebro is working perfectly, then it could go between UX 21 & 22."May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:15 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
That's why I thought there might have been previous newspaper articles by Trask, maybe in smaller, sensationalist rags. It wasn't until his promised big reveal of the Sentinels in UX 14 that the media took him seriously.
<<<

I can see that theory working if it were indeed some smaller, sensationalist rag that we see in MARVELS 2 -- but it's the same "Daily Bugle" issue that Xavier reads in UX 14. If Hank and Bobby truly appear in MARVELS 2 between panels of UX 11, then the media was taking Trask seriously a while before Xavier was alarmed in UX 14.


metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Was there a vacation mentioned in X:FC 1? 
<<<

No vacation mentioned there. But Xavier does note in X:FC 2: If you remember, before our last adventure...I had promised you all a vacation. I interpret the promise as that made in UX 14 (1-3p1) and the intervening ("last") adventure as being X:FC 1.

Paul B.

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Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:42 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
If Cerebro is in 5, then dialogue will determine if it goes after Cerebro is repaired post-UX 20/21 or it gets inserted into the messy UX 14 gap before the FF wedding where the X-Men would have seen Thor again. 
<<<

Paul's revised chronology proposal is on page 12 of this thread, from it: 

UX 14 pg1-pg3pn1 
The X-Men recover from wounds seen in UX 13. Let's take a vacation! 

XM: FC 1 
Adventure in Botanical Gardens.(prototype for Cerebro's Frontal Lobe Chamber seen) 

XM: FC 2 
X-Men go on vacation after their last adventure.(moblie mini-Cerebro seen) 

XM: FC 5 
X-Men meet Thor.(Cerebro used to find Bobby) 

XM: FC 7 
Warren and Wanda date.(Cerebro used to find Warren) 

UX 14 pg3pn2-pg6 
Xavier reads about Trask in the newspaper. 

MARVELS 2 
Sheldon reads the same newspaper Xavier did. 

FF@ 3 
Reed & Sue's marriage, X-Men at the same place Thor is. 

UX 14 pg7-pg20 
Sentinels! 

I'm not seeing anything 'messy' about the proposed gaps in UX 14. It preserves the 'first-ish' X-Men/Thor meeting, before FF@ 3. It keeps the intent of Phil reading the same newspaper that Xavier did. It keeps Cerebro appearances after UX 12. It puts the vacation shortly after Xavier promised it. There's all kinds of positives. 

Now sure, if I were to only read UX 14, it's implied as though very little time has passed between pg3pn1 & pg3pn2. But the first couple of pages serve as an epilogue to the previous issue, and then move on the 'this' issue's story. There's little reason to think that as soon as the X-Men recover the Sentinel threat immediately comes along. Again, it's implied by the number of pages that seperate the two instances, but I feel we have the wiggle room necessary to make everything work.

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:58 pm 
By Dhall

You do realize, that in Marvels 2, the paper Sheldon is looking at hasn't gone to press yet. 
"Mutants, Sure we're about to run a feature spread on them, I'll ask Barney if it's okay to make you a copy." 

This has to be BEFORE Xavier gets his copy delivered, in UX 14. 

Sheldon then goes on to see Iceman and Beast in Greenwich village, then to the wedding, then he watches the debate between Xavier and Trask. 

So yeah, all of this stuff has to happen in more than one evening, but is that any reason to think that weeks and weeks pass? I don't see that as being necessary to accomodate Marvels 2.

			*	*	*

Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:15 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

DHall wrote: 
>>>
You do realize, that in Marvels 2, the paper Sheldon is looking at hasn't gone to press yet. 
"Mutants, Sure we're about to run a feature spread on them, I'll ask Barney if it's okay to make you a copy." 

This has to be BEFORE Xavier gets his copy delivered, in UX 14. 
<<<

Yeah, within a day before Xavier sees it (it's the "Daily" Bugle), not way back between pages of UX 11. After that, Phil "starts spending evenings" in Greenwich Village hoping to see the X-Men, and finally does see Bobby and Hank. Then the FF Fan Club are hunkering down "all week" to see Reed's and Sue's wedding. The wedding happens, and then Xavier debates Trask. 

MARVELS 2 clearly suggests that more than one day occurs between that newspaper headline and the debate. 

While I have stated that this opens up one gap for possible continuity implants, I don't actually place anything from X:FC there. I have some X:FC stories in the gap just before Xavier reads the headline. I'm not sure if we're confusing gaps here, although the two are related.

Paul B.

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Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:19 pm 
By metaldragon

>>>
No vacation mentioned there. But Xavier does note in X:FC 2: If you remember, before our last adventure...I had promised you all a vacation. I interpret the promise as that made in UX 14 (1-3p1) and the intervening ("last") adventure as being X:FC 1.
<<<

Uh... Why? Are there any direct references between X:FC 1 & 2? The vacation reference in X:FC 2 could just as easily be about UX 19 and the intervening "last" adventure be the return of Lucifer story in UX 20 -21. Xavier is shown as finishing the repairs to Cerebro in UX 20 so there would be a perfectly working Cerebro unit during the gap between UX 21 & 22. Heck, even the Cerebro interface he's finishing work on in UX 20 is a wall unit that looks a bit like the classroom interface shown in X:FC 7.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:23 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

metaldragon wrote:
Heck, even the Cerebro interface he's finishing work on in UX 20 is a wall unit that looks a bit like the classroom interface shown in X:FC 7.
Yes, it does. However, XM: FC 7 has to occur before Wanda & Pietro join the Avengers. Wanda & Pietro appear in FF@ 3 as Avengers, so XM: FC 7 has to occur before FF@ 3, which is tied to a portion of UX 14 thanks to MARVELS 2. XM: FC 7 can't occur before UX 12 because of Cerebro, and the story that starts in UX 12 runs through the beginning of UX 14. Therefore, at least XM: FC 7 needs to occur between pages of UX 14. 

Now that we know that, and now that we've found a 'gap' to put it in, who's to say how much time occurs in that 'gap'?

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:49 pm 
By metaldragon

>>>
I'm not seeing anything 'messy' about the proposed gaps in UX 14. It preserves the 'first-ish' X-Men/Thor meeting, before FF@ 3. It keeps the intent of Phil reading the same newspaper that Xavier did. It keeps Cerebro appearances after UX 12. It puts the vacation shortly after Xavier promised it. There's all kinds of positives. 
<<<

Except for the original narrative of UX 14. Up until Marvels 2 came out, the original timeline went: 

UX 11. Stranger breaks up Brotherhood story followed immediately by: 
UX 12-13. Juggernaut story, male X-Men injured. 

XMF 3. Jean: "From the way the boys are favoring their injuries we time-jumped to a couple of weeks after that fight [with Juggernaut] right before we fought the Sentinels for the first time" 

UX 14 pages 1-3, panel 1. Male X-Men finishing up therapy: Beast on crutches, Angel in harness, Cyclops & Iceman in power intensifying machines. Professor X pronounces them fit and surprises them with a vacation. 
UX 14 page 3, panel 2-4. Narrator caption: "But, perhaps the X-Men would not be quite so joyful if they were aware of a press conference that is taking place at that moment in another city..." Trask interview, reporters rush off. 
UX 14 page 3 panel 5. Narrator caption: "Within minutes, the nation's presses go into action..." We see copies of the Daily Globe with headline "Mutant Menace!" on a printing press. 
UX 14 pages 4-5. Narrator caption: "Meanwhile, at professor Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters..." X-Men prepare to leave on their vacation. Scott picks up newspaper and hands it to Xavier: "By the way, the paper boy just dropped this--" 
UX 14 page 6, panel 1-5. Narrator caption: "But, no sooner has the silent Cyclops walked away, than..." Professor X reads Daily Globe with "Mutant Menace!" headline. He goes on to phone "National Television Network" and asks for their "programming director-- immediately!" 
UX 14 page 6, panel 6. Narrator caption: "Seconds later..." Xavier on phone: "Yes, that's right! I want to engage in a public television debate with Dr. Bolivar Trask as soon as possible! I claim his theories are both erroneous and potentially dangerous!" Program director: "We'll arrange it immediately, sir! It will be a privilege to present a scientist of your stature on our network!" 

FF@ 3. Morning of next day, X-Men attend Richards wedding. 

UX 14 page 7. Narrator caption: "The very next evening, after the network has preempted two soap operas and a widely heralded adult western..." Xavier debates Trask on tv, Sentinel story goes on from there. 

So, the UX 14 page 3 "Within minutes" caption has to be an exaggeration because it would take longer for the reporters to leave the interview and compile their story, present it to the editor, get approval, etc. before it hit the presses, than "minutes". (You can stretch this section just enough to fit X:FC 7 since this is about the only spot it would fit.) 

The Marvels 2 storyline has now eliminated the UX 14 page 7 opening narrator caption of "The very next evening" and changed it to Sheldon's narration: "I started spending evenings down there [Greenwich Village looking for the X-Men]" and "We'll [Fantastic Four Fan Club] camp out all week if we have to! [for the Richards' wedding]" taking place between the publication of Trask's interview/Xavier's phone call and the FF wedding/Xavier vs Trask debate on tv. 

I thought the rule here was to ignore dialog in favor of narrator captions. This is my problem with placing anything else during UX 14.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:22 pm 
By metaldragon

Now that I've plotted that out, you could interpret the situation in Marvels 2 as: 

Phil: "I started spending evenings down there, and sure enough--" He spots Beast and Iceman. If you interpret the word "started" as "I intended to spend evenings there until I found them but..." that bit could take place on the same evening as the opening day of UX 14. Same day as he reads the pre-view of the Trask Globe interview, plays with kids in basement, phones FBI about info on mutants, and then goes to Greenwich Village to look for X-Men. (I'll also point out that that dialog box is in past tense. In fact, Sheldon's narration boxes throughout Marvels 2 is from a perspective after the events. So those bits are how he remembers things, maybe not exactly how they happened.) 

My interpretation of this next bit is: The next morning [edit to clarify this: the morning of the wedding], on Channel Five they show footage of FF Fan Club from last week, where the Fan Club says were planning on camping out all week for the wedding, as a lead up to the actual wedding itself. You can read the dialog in the very next panel "Yea, the whole thing's on Channel Five. A couple interviews an' such, then the weddin' itself." as enforcing that interpretation. 

Looking at Marvels 2 that way, it doesn't even have to expand the time frame already established in UX 14.

Last edited by metaldragon on Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:33 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
I thought the rule here was to ignore dialog in favor of narrator captions.
<<<

I believe it's the other way around. I wouldn't go so far as to say "ignore", but dialog trumps narrator captions. 


watching: 24

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Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:54 pm 
By metaldragon

I seem to recall it the other way around. There was some issue with Wolverine's speach bubble vs a square box in the corner of a panel not too long ago and the square box won. 

What I meant by "narrator caption" is the square box in the corner of the panel."May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:29 am 
By metaldragon

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Heck, even the Cerebro interface he's finishing work on in UX 20 is a wall unit that looks a bit like the classroom interface shown in X:FC 7.
<<<

Yes, it does. However, XM: FC 7 has to occur before Wanda & Pietro join the Avengers. Wanda & Pietro appear in FF@ 3 as Avengers, so XM: FC 7 has to occur before FF@ 3, which is tied to a portion of UX 14 thanks to MARVELS 2. XM: FC 7 can't occur before UX 12 because of Cerebro, and the story that starts in UX 12 runs through the beginning of UX 14. Therefore, at least XM: FC 7 needs to occur between pages of UX 14. 

Now that we know that, and now that we've found a 'gap' to put it in, who's to say how much time occurs in that 'gap'?
<<<

Woops! Sorry, I only have XM:FC 7 as a visual reference. What I meant was, if the Cerebro shown in the other issues of XM:FC (1, 2, and possibly 5?) looks like the one in XM:FC 7, the other issues could fit just as well in the gap between UX 21 and 22 because we've saw Xavier finish installing one similar (to the XM:FC 7 one) in UX 20. I wasn't actually talking about moving XM:FC 7 into that spot. Just the other issues. Sorry for the confusion.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:50 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Administrator wrote:
>>>
I believe it's the other way around. I wouldn't go so far as to say "ignore", but dialog trumps narrator captions.
<<<

I seem to recall it the other way around. There was some issue with Wolverine's speach bubble vs a square box in the corner of a panel not too long ago and the square box won.

What I meant by "narrator caption" is the square box in the corner of the panel.
<<<

I'm not familiar with the passage you're referencing, so I'll just ask this: 

Did something else trump the dialog, and it just so happened that the narrator caption supported that "something else"? 

Alternatively, were there two different interpretations of the dialog, and the narrator caption helped support one interpretation, rather than directly contradicting the dialog? 

Both of these are examples of why I hesitated to use the word "ignore." 

I'm just saying that if there's a previous example, where an editor's caption and a snippet of dialog were the only bits of evidence that we had to consider, and they contradicted each other, and we chose the editor's caption over the dialog (all other things equal), that was a mistake, and should be corrected. 

watching: can't buy me love

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Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:24 pm 
By metaldragon

Sorry, my choice of the word "ignore" was poor. Substitute with "trump". 

I remember it was mentioned when I did the Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Magazine analysis. In X-Men: Hidden Years 1, John Byrne had put a square box in the corner a panel at the beginning saying this took place 3 days after the end of UX 66. Someone said something about making that gap larger to fit more time between UX 66 and X:HY 1 and that the square box could be... "trumped". Someone else replied something along the lines that those boxes are writer's/editor's intent and therefore solid and that character's dialog is more flexable and can be explained away because people can exaggerate and be forgetful. The Wolverine vs Hydra (I think it was) example was used in there to support the argument.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:00 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

The reference you're remembering was made by Director Paul O'Brien (it's in Archive #63), and he was replying to Col_Fury making the same misspoken claim that you have (that is, that we "ignore" narrator captions). Here's what he said:

>>>
We certainly don't have a general rule of ignoring narrator's captions. The narrator is, for most purposes, definitively right because (unless he's a first person narrator) he ought to be utterly reliable.
<<<


I may be wrong, but I believe the discussion swarming around FF:WGCM, UX 66 and X:HY was centered around "should Paul Bourcier's Marvel calendar reflect the editorial intent expressed in narrator captions, even to the extent of creating gaps in books?" The only discussion I find in that thread comparing narrator captions to conflicting dialog points out that we've previously supported dialog, over narration.

And in fact, in the specific case of the citation you're referencing here, approximately six hours earlier, Director Jeph York posted this:

>>>
Personally, I'd prefer to just ignore the "three days" reference betwen UX #66 and X:HY #1. Not every temporal reference has to work with 100% accuracy -- I'd rather ignore the ones that don't work, rather than invent creative new gaps elsewhere in order to *make* them work. 
<<<


To which Paul O'Brien replied:
>>>
I'm with Jeph - the natural storytelling break is before X:HY 1, and it seems far more comfortable to disregard the words "three days" than to shoehorn artificial breaks into the story of HIDDEN YEARS itself.
<<<

And finally, are we talking about two different things? I ask because, according to your post in the original thread, the "square box" in X:HY 1 was an editorial footnote, not a narrator's caption. Yes, editorial footnotes do carry a lot of weight, but even they can be (and are) trumped, when they're obviously wrong. 


watching: history's mysteries

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Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:35 pm 
By metaldragon

Since the FF:WGCM analysis have gone into archive and I can't figure out how to find them in there, I have no way of pulling up quotes. I guess I'm just remembering things wrong. 

Apologies for taking up space on this thread with this! 

Back to X-Men: First Class?

"May the Light shine forever!"

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Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:25 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

No apologies necessary. After 16 pages, we're allowed a little topic drift. 

You've done a great job, remembering something from that long ago. Let me know what specific problems you're having accessing the archive, and I'll try to help. 


watching: northport blue

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Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:42 pm 
By metaldragon

I suspect it may be a Mac issue. I can't seem to find a way of opening the files once they've unzipped. But then again, I'm not all that computer literate to begin with. Which is why I love my Mac. 

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:55 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

I think Jeph uses a Mac, and may be able to shed some light on it. If you're able to unzip them, that's really the whole battle. They're simple text files, which can be read with most readers (perhaps even your web browser). 


watching: city confidential

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Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:02 pm 
By metaldragon

I had another thought about X:FC 7... since they don't seem to be doing all that much "action" in this issue, they could still be favoring their injuries from UX 13 and just don't discuss it in the dialogue. Angel could have recovered enough to fly around with Wanda, but at the end of the issue, he has a monkeybars fall on him, injuring his wings again which is why we see him in the harness in UX 14. Similar with Beast. His exertions in this issue could have re-injured his foot and he has to go back to crutches after this. Since we already know from XMF 3 that "weeks" have gone by between UX 13 & 14 while they're recovering, you could place X:FC 7 between XMF 3 and UX 14. In fact, in XMF 3 we see a danger room session without Angel & Beast in harness or on crutches so this might just fit there nicely. 

Just a side note, while they were bed ridden, Xavier could have introduced the Cerebro tutor AI interface just after UX 13 so they could study while they recovered. In UX 18, Magneto is only shown destroying Professor X's desk interface, not the complete Cerebro system, so it's not a big problem for this version to be still intact/repaired after that.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:06 pm 
By metaldragon

My main software for reading text files is AppleWorks and for some reason, it won't allow me to chose that file to open. There must be a way to get it to open but I can't figure out how."May the Light shine forever

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Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:45 pm 
By metaldragon

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
for some reason, it won't allow me to chose that file to open. There must be a way to get it to open but I can't figure out how.
<<<

I wasn't able to open them either, until I saved them. Try saving it first, then opening it from the saved file.

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:46 pm 
By Somebody
Director

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
My main software for reading text files is AppleWorks and for some reason, it won't allow me to chose that file to open. There must be a way to get it to open but I can't figure out how.
<<<

Unzip with http://www.stuffit.com/mac/expander/ then the resulting document should open with anything that opens text files. 

And X:FC8. Gorilla Man guest-stars, so there are a few Agents of Atlas references. 

Apart from that, Xavier's still away (I make no judgement on when the "still" is from, but it was "two weeks ago", the X-Men were "on break" when he left), Jean gets a psi-flash from him [I should point out here that she explicitly says "my abilities are telekinetic, I'm no telepath", to pre-empt any stuff on that], we see a sliding-timelined Cerebro desk interface (i.e., instead of being a panel in the desk with cards to be slid in and out, it's the flat-screen monitor of a computer). "[Prof X] took the jet" - which may be the plane from UX1 and X:FC1 or the Blackbird, we don't see it - so they have to fly commerical. In the region of Africa they end up in based on Jean's vision, they meet up with Gorilla Man, find Xavier and go home in stuff that doesn't bear on placement that I can see.

			*	*	*

Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:58 pm 
By metaldragon

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Unzip with http://www.stuffit.com/mac/expander/ then the resulting document should open with anything that opens text files.
<<<

Unzipping isn't the problem. That goes fine. I have Stuffit already. When I double-click on the unzipped file, it tries to open in this expired demo version of some Windows Word thing for Mac I've got on here. When I try to open the file with AppleWorks, it doesn't seem to recognize the unzipped file as anything it can open. 


Anyway, I'll again champion the between UX 18 & 22 period for most of these issues (depending on the condition of Cerebro of course: between 21 & 22 only if it's in fully working condition). In the period between UX 14 and UX 22 they constantly seem to be trying to go on vacation and something always comes up to interrupt. (They attempt to leave on yet another one at the beginning of UX 22 but it gets interrupted by Count Nefaria & his Maggia this time!) 

Another interesting tidbit... in UX 20 is proof that they WERE taking classes at this time: Hank says Bobby is interrupting him while he's studying and Warren & Jean are shown getting books from the bookcase in the same panel!"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:09 am 
By wolframbane

Somebody wrote:
>>>
In the region of Africa they end up in based on Jean's vision, they meet up with Gorilla Man, find Xavier and go home in stuff that doesn't bear on placement that I can see.
<<<

Although it does not explicitly say in X:FC 8, the female mutant that Charles is looking for in Africa is likely Storm. Charles first encountered her way back in UX 117-FB when she was a child, and he would later recognize her psi-signature, as evidenced when he encountered and recognized the adult Storm weeks later during LegionQuest. He would have tracked her down as a young woman by the time he formed the original X-Men (UX 300-FB, late Oct of Yr 3), and the X-Men would even encounter her in X-Men: Hidden Years (Nov or Dec of Yr 5). She was later recruited in GSX 1 (late May, Yr 8).

			*	*	*

Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:35 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

AND Xavier's all-terrain tank-tread weelchair makes an appearance! 

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:34 am 
By jephyork
Director

MetalDragon, it sounds like you need to splurge on some Microsoft Word. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:27 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Or try OpenOffice Writer.

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Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:29 pm 
By Ocean Doot

"Another interesting tidbit... in UX 20 is proof that they WERE taking classes at this time: Hank says Bobby is interrupting him while he's studying and Warren & Jean are shown getting books from the bookcase in the same panel!" 

Nice catch! 

There's also more corroboration in around X-Men #31, when Warren first re-connects with Candy Sothern. There's a bit of dialogue where he says that he and the other students are taking college-level courses. There's even a cute bit where Candy says that it sounds like a great place and that maybe she'll apply, and Warren mentally chastises himself for "overselling the school."

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Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:52 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
"Another interesting tidbit... in UX 20 is proof that they WERE taking classes at this time: Hank says Bobby is interrupting him while he's studying and Warren & Jean are shown getting books from the bookcase in the same panel!"
<<<

Not saying that they weren't taking classes, but all that bit of dialogue shows is that Hank likes to read books.

			*	*	*

Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:55 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
There's also more corroboration in around X-Men #31, when Warren first re-connects with Candy Sothern. There's a bit of dialogue where he says that he and the other students are taking college-level courses. There's even a cute bit where Candy says that it sounds like a great place and that maybe she'll apply, and Warren mentally chastises himself for "overselling the school."
<<<

Again, not saying that they weren't taking classes, But you do know that Xavier's School is the cover story, and that the X-Men team was the reality right? No offense to you, (and I'm certainly not saying you're one of them) but in their attempts to "prove" that classes were going on, some people seem to forget that the school was the cover story for a team of mutant super-heroes.

			*	*	*

Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:52 pm 
By metaldragon

True but don't forget, as I said earlier this thread, Hank had to get his PHd in BioChem before he started working for the Brand Corp. So he HAD to have been studying for it all along since UX 7. I'm merely pointing out a piece of corroborating evidence. 

>>>
some people seem to forget that the school was the cover story for a team of mutant super-heroes.
<<<

On the other hand, that's not ALL it is either. It's also a "mutants shelter" as well as a training facility and, yes, a school too. From what we've seen of Xavier's characer, I don't think he'd feel comfortable lying. Since he registered the mansion as a school, he probably made sure it was used as one (as much as events would allow).

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:21 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
On the other hand, that's not ALL it is either. It's also a "mutants shelter" as well as a training facility and, yes, a school too. From what we've seen of Xavier's characer, I don't think he'd feel comfortable lying. Since he registered the mansion as a school, he probably made sure it was used as one (as much as events would allow).
<<<

Very true. Except that I think we've seen a lot of instances of Xavier acting well...less than above board, shall we say. 

The best part of your post I thought was this one "as much as events would allow" That's the real problem with the school thing in the 60's issues. Events frequently didn't allow. 

Hank obviously would have excelled at whatever school he went to, and don't forget that he had started at college BEFORE went to Xavier's, so he was a bit further along than the rest of the team.... 

also as has been pointed out, Hank never missed the opportunity to crack the books, and he certainly could have been doing self-study for a long time even when Xavier was a prisoner, etc. 

It's really Xavier's frequent abscences that often make formal classes to be a chronology problem. And note that I'm only talking about formal classes here, with Xavier teaching, not about any sort of self-study that may have been going on, as evidenced by some of the comments mentioned by others in recent posts.

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Tue May 01, 2007 1:40 pm 
By Ocean Doot

"Events frequently didn't allow." 

I'm not sure why you say this, though. I know the sliding timescale may have compressed the amount of time that is thought to have passed from issue 1 to issue 66, but in the original comics as written, there are constant references to "weeks" having transpired between adventures.

			*	*	*

Tue May 01, 2007 2:40 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Ocean Doot wrote:
>>>
"Events frequently didn't allow."

I'm not sure why you say this, though. I know the sliding timescale may have compressed the amount of time that is thought to have passed from issue 1 to issue 66, but in the original comics as written, there are constant references to "weeks" having transpired between adventures.
<<<

Plus, more as an aside than a serious point, wasn't UX bimonthly for the first hundred issues*? There you go, you can slot in 66 issues before you hit the number say, F4, churned out in the same RW period  

[* - not counting the hiatuses at either end of the reprint period]

			*	*	*

Tue May 01, 2007 2:54 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

UX was bi-monthly until issue 14, monthly for issues 14-66. 67-112 were bi-monthly. 


watching: city confidential

			*	*	*

Tue May 01, 2007 4:22 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Ah, kay 

[Still 13 issues :p]

			*	*	*

Tue May 01, 2007 5:08 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
"Events frequently didn't allow."

I'm not sure why you say this, though. I know the sliding timescale may have compressed the amount of time that is thought to have passed from issue 1 to issue 66, but in the original comics as written, there are constant references to "weeks" having transpired between adventures.
<<<

What? Doot, are you trying to wind me up? 

Xavier is G-O-N-E (missing, captured, or presumed dead) for about half the run. 

Therefore he is not AVAILABLE to teach class for about half the run. 

Hence "Events frequently didn't allow." 

Sigh......

			*	*	*

Tue May 01, 2007 6:26 pm 
By metaldragon

Off the top of my head... Professor X was gone during UX 7-9 (search for Lucifer), 34-39 (kidnapped by Factor Three), and 41-65 (spying on the Z'nox invasion & presumed dead). Wow, that IS about half the issues... Still, between those periods of absence (and the X-Men's missions) there was time when they could be taking classes as Doot says.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Tue May 01, 2007 6:40 pm 
By metaldragon

Dhall wrote:
>>>
Very true. Except that I think we've seen a lot of instances of Xavier acting well...less than above board, shall we say.
<<<

True, he has done some morally questionable things but I did say "comfortable". We've seen the conscience wrestling he's done over his decisions to put expedience above what's right. Heck, that's how Onslaught came about wasn't it? (Um... at least that's what we're told. I'm not sure how well that came across in the finished product...!  )

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Tue May 01, 2007 9:30 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Ive updated my stab at placing issues of X:FC, now that X:FC 8 has come out. (I still have X:FC 4 between UX 39 and 40.) At the risk of possibly overlooking some points in this very long thread, here goes... 

UX 7 
The X-Men graduate. 
Hank and Bobby at the Coffee-A-Go-Go. 

UTSM 21 
Hank and Bobby introduce the rest of the X-Men to the Coffee-A-Go-Go. 
Bobby is snowy. 

UX 8 
Bobby turns icy. 
Xavier is in the Balkans, trying to find Lucifer. 
One week passes within this story. 

X:FC 6-FB 
The version 2.0 costumes are worn by Skrull imposters, so they must appear before now (and probably in public) so the Skrulls know to imitate them  thus, at some point, we may encounter an issue of X:FC that precedes this point. 
Mole Man (known to the press as Harvey Elder) has gigantic creatures attack a rural area. BTS, the FF pursue Mole an to a remote island. This is likely a never-before-published adventure shortly after A 12. 

X:FC 6 
Begins the day after X:FC 6-FB. 
Xavier is out of town, maybe on his mission to find Lucifer between UX 8 and 9. 
Zelda is seen at the Coffee-A-Go-Go, and Bobby is on the make for girls. This may be the last time the X-Men go to the caf before UX 14 (7-20). 
Cerebro is not seen in this issue, so its possible to place this issue before UX 12. 
Warren says that this has Magneto and the Brotherhood written all over it, so its likely before UX 11. 
Bobby is icy, so its after UX 8. 

UX 9 
The X-Men join Xavier in the Balkans. 

FF 35 
The FF encounter Xavier and Scott at State University. 

FF 36 
The X-Men attend Reeds and Sues engagement party. 

UX 10 
The X-Men meet Ka-Zar. 

UX 11 
The Stranger petrifies Mastermind and takes Magneto and Toad captive. 
Pietro and Wanda leave the Brotherhood. 

UX 12 
The X-Men learn about Cerebro when it detects Juggernaut (even though hes not a mutant!). 
Apparently, Cerebro can sound a loud claxon but cant speak. 

UX 13 
The battle with Juggernaut in which the male X-Men are injured. 

XMF 3 (13-22p1) 
It is a couple of weeks after UX 13 and before UX 14. 
The X-Men show signs of their injuries from UX 13. 
Magneto and Toad are captives of the Stranger. 

UX 14 (1-3p1) 
The X-Men recover from the injuries they suffered in the battle with Juggernaut. Xavier tells them theyve earned a vacation  our first one in years according to Warren (exaggerating). 

X:FC 1 
[Before they can prepare for a vacation, the X-Men are interrupted by] a disturbance at the botanical gardens in town, to which the X-Men respond in their version 2.0 costumes. The investigation leads the group to the Arctic. 
The X-Men know about Cerebro. 
A prototype of Cerebros frontal lobe chamber  the big spherical room  is shown. 

X:FC 2 
Xavier: If you remember, before our last adventure [which I interpret as X:FC 1]...I had promised you all a vacation, which I interpret as UX 14 (1-3p1). 
For their vacation, they go to the Worthingtons beachfront house in Florida, where they encounter the Lizard. 
The last time Connors was this bad was in ASM 6. 

[BTS] 
While the X-Men are on vacation in Florida, Cerebro detects the presence of a distressed, emerging mutant female in Africa (probably Storm). 
It is two weeks before X:FC 8-FB. 

[BTS] 
Xavier learns of Cerebros discovery upon the X-Mens return from Florida and decides to go to Africa on his own to investigate, leaving Cerebro to instruct his students. 

X:FC 7-FB 
Beast uses Cerebro to locate Scarlet Witch, whos still in the country after UX 11; this is the last time Cerebro searched for a mutant before X:FC 7  its after his detection of Ororo. 
Obviously, Hank and Warren know Cerebros function for finding mutants. 
Warren starts seeing Wanda. 
This flashback occurs two weeks before X:FC 7. 

X:FC 7 
Cerebro teaches the students while Xavier is on vacation (which may be a cover story for the mission that Xavier is on, as revealed in X:FC 8) 
Cerebro is good for more than finding mutants; its an artificial intelligence that can speak. 
Cerebro notes that Warren is not in attendance again for the fourth time in two weeks and 
Warren notes that this is date four with Wanda, so we can assume that hes been seeing Wanda for two weeks. 
The X-Men know Wandas and Pietros first names (Scott makes reference to them). 
They associate the siblings with the Brotherhood, not the Avengers. 
Mastermind is at Xaviers school, still petrified from the Stranger (UX 11). 
The last mutant search Cerebro has run is for Scarlet Witch in X:FC 7-FB two weeks earlier. 
Warrens fling with Wanda ends. 

X:FC 8  FB 
Two weeks after X:FC 2, so its likely right after X:FC 7. 
Jean receives a cryptic mental transmission from the missing Xavier in her sleep, and the X-Men check in with Cerebro, figure out where Xavier is, and plan to leave for Africa first thing in the morning. 

X:FC 8 
The day after X:FC 8-FB. 
The X-Men take a commercial jet to Africa and on a tip from Warrens aunt, they find guide Ken Hale (Gorilla Man). 
Hale and the X-Men find Xavier trapped in a mystical temple and get trapped themselves before bursting free. 
After this, Xavier returns with the X-Men to Westchester. 

UX 18  FB 
Magneto escapes the Strangers planet, leaving the Toad behind. 

X:FC 5 
Xavier uses Cerebro to locate Bobby (and the X-Men know it). 
Xavier meets Thor (they communicated with each other, but hadnt met in person in UX 9). 
Its probably better to place Thors encounter with the X-Men here before their appearance together in FF@ 3. 

M/H&L 97 (17-18) 
Magneto catches up to the fleeing Wanda and Pietro in the Balkans, but they escape him. 

A 16 ~ M/H&L 97 
Pietro and Wanda join the Avengers. 

A 17 
JIM 120 
A 18 
More appearances by Pietro and Wanda. 

UX 14 (3p2-6) 
The X-Men decide to take time off separately; this is not the vacation noted in UX 14 (1-3p1). 
Once they leave, Xavier reads a Daily Globe article about Bolivar Trask with the headline Mutant Menace! Eminent Anthropologist Says Mankind Faces Gravest Danger... 

MARVELS 2 (30-31p3) 
Phil Sheldon sees the same Daily Globe article (same headline). 
He encounters a microfilmed account of the X-Men attending Reeds and Sues engagement party (from FF 36). 

MARVELS 2 (31p4-32p4) 
Sheldon starts spending evenings in Greenwich Village, looking for the X-Men, and one night, he sees Iceman and Beast streak by. (The Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 2 #1 places Hank and Bobby here between 20p1 and 20p2 of UX 11, but that would mean that theres a good gap between Phils seeing the newspaper headline on Trask and Xaviers discovery about the highly publicized Trask  an odd thing for the worlds leading expert on mutants. I posit that the insertion of XMF 3 between UX 13 and 14 after the publication of the Index forced that gap and so necessitates a new placement for this segment of MARVELS 2.) 
The FF Fan Club are prepared to camp out all week to be at Reeds and Sues wedding. 

MARVELS 2 (32p5-32p6) 
Guests start arriving for Reeds and Sues wedding. 

FF@ 3 ~ M/H&L 1 ~ MARVELS 2 (33) 
Pietro and Wanda attend Reeds and Sues wedding as Avengers. 
The X-Men attend the wedding, back in version 1.0 costumes. 
Phil Sheldon takes pictures of the wedding. 

(After the wedding, Bobby and Hank go to Coffee-A-Go-Go, Warren has dinner with his parents on Long Island, Jean takes off in a train, and Scott finds himself in a cab.) 

UX 14 (7-20) ~ MARVELS 2 (34-45) 
That evening, Phil delivers his film of the wedding to Barney Bushkin at a bar as Xavier starts debates Trask on TV. Sentinels attack. 
So, the televised debate cant occur the very next evening after UX 14 (3p2-6) because of the time inserted by MARVELS 2. 
Zelda says that she hasnt seen Bobby or Hank in months (X:FC 6?; the months comment may be an exaggeration, especially if the X-Men were regulars who suddenly didnt show up for weeks). Bobby asks her out, but then has to leave, ticking Zelda off. 

UX 15 
UX 16 
UX 17 
UX 18 
The X-Men fight the Sentinels, then Magneto. 
Magneto destroys Cerebro. 

[Xavier tries to repair Cerebro, but isnt entirely successful, as seen below.] 

X:FC 3 
The version 2.0 costumes are back again. 
The X-Men are familiar with the Sentinels, so it must be after UX 18. 
The frontal lobe chamber appears. 
AI Cerebro backfires on Xavier and shuts down for maintenance. 
Xavier states, Im afraid this chamber is going to need much more work before I can use it reliably. 

UX 19 
Bobby and Hank double-date with Zelda and Vera. 

UX 20 
Xavier finishes installing this new Cerebro. (This version may not be the complete AI version, but a scaled-back version.)

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Wed May 02, 2007 5:45 am 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
[BTS]While the X-Men are on vacation in Florida, Cerebro detects the presence of a distressed, emerging mutant female in Africa (probably Storm).
It is two weeks before X:FC 8-FB.

[BTS]
Xavier learns of Cerebros discovery upon the X-Mens return from Florida and decides to go to Africa on his own to investigate, leaving Cerebro to instruct his students.
<<<

Reread X:FC 8 (5) - Cerebro says that "we" (Cerebro & Xavier) discovered it while Cyclops says the X-Men were "on break", and that "Charles sensed she was distressed".

That kinda says:
1) Xavier was personally using Cerebro in the X-Mansion
2) Thus, while per Cyke's comment the X-Men were "on break", Xavier wasn't.
3) I don't read the comment as ctively requiring the X-Men to have been on holiday as such - Warren, Jean, Bobby & Hank may have gone home, and Cyke may have gone with one of them or just been hanging around, or they may have been in the Mansion but just not doing classes/missions.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
X:FC 5
Xavier uses Cerebro to locate Bobby (and the X-Men know it).
Xavier meets Thor (they communicated with each other, but hadnt met in person in UX 9).
Its probably better to place Thors encounter with the X-Men here before their appearance together in FF@ 3.
<<<

I see your point, but that's one I wonder about - the Blackbird is referenced as "the new jet" in X:FC4 (and is still just plans in X:FC1). I wonder if that shouldn't go beside FC4 down beside Frankenstein's robot...

			*	*	*

Wed May 02, 2007 8:20 pm 
By metaldragon

My objections still stand about UX 14's time factor problem and encourage you to check out my re-evaluation of Marvels 2 on page 16 of this thread to bring it in line with UX 14. Unless Marvel themselves officially say that this is where these issues of X:FC go, I'm still not convinced. Sorry Paul. 

I really feel that the bulk of the series should go in the UX 18-22 gaps with only X:FC 6 (between UX 8 & 9), X:FC 7 (between XMF 3 & UX 14 with a bit of offscreen explanation that Angel & Beast set back their recovery because of what happened in X:FC 7), and X:FC 4 (between UX 39 & 40) being outside of that. 

I also agree that X:FC 5 probably has to go during UX 14 depending on if the X-Men's appearance alongside Thor at the FF@ 3 wedding counts as a significant enough meeting. Otherwise, it too could go later [edit: in Somebody's suggested spot?] 

I still say, for the rest of the issues, the vacation references in UX 19 (and again in 22) are just as valid as UX 14. And... um... what makes you say this: 

>>>
(This version may not be the complete AI version, but a scaled-back version.)
<<<


All we saw Magneto destroy in UX 18 is Professor X's desk interface (because it was blaring alarms at him). The giant Kirby machine in the west wing is not shown or mentioned in UX 18 and was obviously working in UX 19 to tell Xavier that the Mimic wasn't a true mutant before he replaces the desk in his office with the wall unit in UX 20 (which mentions what happened in UX 18). The rest of the issues can fit around this easily. 

Looking closer at X:FC 2 and UX 19-22, I especially like the thought that Scott and Jean spending time alone together there makes Scott eventually decide to take up Jean's offer to go to dinner with her and Warren in UX 22 for the first time. Before this he always went off on his own. I'd also place X:FC 2 before UX 20 where Scott decides to leave the X-Men because he believes his eye beams are too much of a threat/liability which also ties in with X:FC 2. With this placement we have teenage angst at it's best: after spending time with Jean and having a good time, letting go and blasting out into the ocean, fear/guilt/depression/withdrawl crashes down and he decides he's too dangerous and must leave the X-Men!  Then after he rejoins to fight Blob, Unus, & Lucifer he somehow finds the courage to accept her offer. And THEN she has to leave for Metro! X-Men teen soap opera at it's finest. 

Well I think it's brilliant...!

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Wed May 02, 2007 10:48 pm 
By wolframbane

In X:FC 8, I don't think the Coffee@Go-Go they gang was at was in Greenwich Village, but in the nearby Salem Center. On the wall of the cafe, on the second last page, there is a poster that says 'Visit out sister store Coffee@Go-Go in Greenwich Village'. 

Guess Harry's Hideaway wasn't the only local hangout of the original gang (as mentioned in UX 297).

			*	*	*

Mon May 07, 2007 1:38 am 
By metaldragon

My suggested placements for the X:FC issues (except X:FC 6 & 4 of course). Paul, I hope you dont mind if I use your wonderfully concise notes for the bits I agree with. Many apologies if you DO mind...! 

UX 13 
The battle with Juggernaut in which the male X-Men are injured. 

BTS- Professor X introduces X-Men to Cerebro AI and starts them on classes with it while they are recovering. Much of the mansion needs to be repaired here as well which would keep Xavier busy. 

X:FC 7-FB 
Beast uses Cerebro to locate Scarlet Witch, whos still in the country after UX 11; this is the last time Cerebro searched for a mutant before X:FC 7. 
Obviously, Hank and Warren know Cerebros function for finding mutants. 
Warren starts seeing Wanda. 
This flashback occurs two weeks before X:FC 7. 
Hank is shown sitting down and Warren is wearing regular clothes over his wings. [Hanks crutches are probably just off camera as they are still recovering from the injuries from UX 13.] 

XMF 3 (13-22p1) 
It is a couple of weeks after UX 13 and before UX 14. 
Angel is shown using his wings without the harness and Beast is leaping without crutches in a Danger Room session but Jean mentions that the boys show signs of their injuries from UX 13. 
Juggernaut is locked up and comatose in Xaviers basement between UX 13 & 32. 
Magneto and Toad are captives of the Stranger. 

X:FC 7 
Cerebro teaches the students while Xavier is out (its possible hes still making arrangements for finishing repairs to the mansion or just out getting groceries, Cerebro isnt specific.) 
Cerebro is good for more than finding mutants; its an artificial intelligence that can speak. 
Cerebro notes that Warren is not in attendance again for the fourth time in two weeks and 
Warren notes that this is date four with Wanda, so we can assume that hes been seeing Wanda for two weeks. 
The X-Men know Wandas and Pietros first names (Scott makes reference to them). 
They associate the siblings with the Brotherhood, not the Avengers. 
Mastermind is at Xaviers school, still petrified from the Stranger (UX 11). 
The last mutant search Cerebro has run is for Scarlet Witch in X:FC 7-FB two weeks earlier. 
Its possible this is the first time Warren takes Wanda flying as he might be strong enough to do so at this point. 
Warrens fling with Wanda ends. 
Due to the events of this issue, Warren and Hank strain their injuries and have to go back in the flying harness & crutches as seen at the beginning of UX 14. 

UX 18  FB 
Magneto escapes the Strangers planet, leaving the Toad behind. 

M/H&L 97 (17-18) 
Magneto catches up to the fleeing Wanda and Pietro in the Balkans, but they escape him. 

A 16 ~ M/H&L 97 
Pietro and Wanda join the Avengers. 

A 17 
JIM 120 
A 18 
More appearances by Pietro and Wanda. 

UX 14 (1-3p4) 
The X-Men recover from the injuries they suffered in the battle with Juggernaut. Xavier tells them theyve earned a vacation  our first one in years according to Warren (exaggerating). 

[X:FC 5 (possible placement) 
Xavier uses Cerebro to locate Bobby (and the X-Men know it). 
Xavier meets Thor (they communicated with each other, but hadnt met in person in UX 9). 
Its probably better to place Thors encounter with the X-Men here before their appearance together in FF@ 3.] 

MARVELS 2 (30-31p3) 
Phil Sheldon reads pre-view copy of Daily Globe with the headline Mutant Menace! Eminent Anthropologist Says Mankind Faces Gravest Danger... 
He encounters a microfilmed account of the X-Men attending Reeds and Sues engagement party (from FF 36). 

UX 14 (3p5-6) 
Once the X-Men leave on their vacation, Xavier reads a Daily Globe article about Bolivar Trask with the headline Mutant Menace! Eminent Anthropologist Says Mankind Faces Gravest Danger... 

[Other possible placement spot for X:FC 5 if doesn't fit in the small gap morning of UX 14 before they leave for vacation. Sorry, this is one of the issues I'm still missing.] 

MARVELS 2 (31p4-32p4) 
Sheldon starts [I interpret this as intends to start to preserve original timeline established in UX 14] spending evenings in Greenwich Village, looking for the X-Men, and [that evening], he sees Iceman and Beast streak by. (The Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 2 #1 places Hank and Bobby here between 20p1 and 20p2 of UX 11, but that would mean that theres a good gap between Phils seeing the newspaper headline on Trask and Xaviers discovery about the highly publicized Trask  an odd thing for the worlds leading expert on mutants. I posit that the insertion of XMF 3 between UX 13 and 14 after the publication of the Index forced that gap and so necessitates a new placement for this segment of MARVELS 2.) [I place it the same evening as he reads the Globe article. The Marvels issues ARE the book Sheldon writes, isnt it? Sheldons narrative blocks are written past-tense as hes remembering these events. The memory cheats as they say...] 

MARVELS 2 (32p5-32p6) 
[As part of the pre-wedding tv coverage on the morning of the wedding they show:] The FF Fan Club are prepared to camp out all week to be at Reeds and Sues wedding. [from the previous week] 
Guests start arriving for Reeds and Sues wedding. 

FF@ 3 ~ M/H&L 1 ~ MARVELS 2 (33) 
Pietro and Wanda attend Reeds and Sues wedding as Avengers. 
The X-Men attend the wedding, back in version 1.0 costumes. 
Phil Sheldon takes pictures of the wedding. 

UX 14 (7-20) ~ MARVELS 2 (34-45) 
After the wedding, Bobby and Hank go to Coffee-A-Go-Go, Warren has dinner with his parents on Long Island, Jean takes off in a train, and Scott finds himself in a cab. 
Zelda says that she hasnt seen Bobby or Hank in months (X:FC 6?; the months comment may be an exaggeration, especially if the X-Men were regulars who suddenly didnt show up for weeks). Bobby asks her out, but then has to leave, ticking Zelda off. 
That evening, Phil delivers his film of the wedding to Barney Bushkin at a bar as Xavier starts debates Trask on TV. Sentinels attack. 
So, the televised debate CAN occur the very next evening after UX 14 (1-6) because of my new interpretation of the relevent panels of MARVELS 2. 

UX 15 
UX 16 
UX 17 
UX 18 
The X-Men fight the Sentinels, then Magneto. 
Magneto destroys Cerebro desk interface in Xaviers office. 

X:FC 2 
Xavier: If you remember, before our last adventure [which I interpret UX 14-18]...I had promised you all a vacation, which I [too] interpret as UX 14 (1-3p1). 
For their vacation, they go to the Worthingtons beachfront house in Florida, where they encounter the Lizard. 
The last time Connors was this bad was in ASM 6. 

[Xavier tries to repair Cerebro, but isnt entirely successful, as seen below.] 

X:FC 3 
The version 2.0 costumes are back again. 
The X-Men are familiar with the Sentinels, so it must be after UX 18. 
The frontal lobe chamber appears. 
AI Cerebro backfires on Xavier and shuts down for maintenance. 
Xavier states, Im afraid this chamber is going to need much more work before I can use it reliably. 

UX 19 
Xavier says: Since your bouts with the Sentinels and with Magneto in the past few months, Ive been waiting for you to become fully recovered to attain your fighting peak again! ...And thats the reason Ive decided its time you had a little vacation! This implies a lot of time has taken place between UX 18 and this issue. 
Bobby and Hank double-date with Zelda and Vera. 
Vacation interrupted by the Mimic. 
Cerebro working enough to tell if there were any mutants within a 100 mile radius. Mimic registers negative (he is a mutate like FF, Spider-Man, & Hulk). 

UX 20 
UX 21 
Cyclops decides to leave the X-Men and find a doctor to rid him of the menace of my deadly eye beams! For, how can mere words ever hope to express all that I feel in my heart for Jean? And yet, have I the right to feel this way about her- -while my eyes make me a threat to all I encounter? [the typically Scott reaction to X:FC 2] 
Xavier finishes installing this new Cerebro wall unit in his office. 
Scott rejoins before getting very far to help fight Blob, Unus & Lucifer. 

X:FC 1 
The X-Men investigate a disturbance at the botanical gardens in town, to which the X-Men respond in their version 2.0 costumes. The investigation leads the group to the Arctic. 
The X-Men know about Cerebro. 
A prototype of Cerebros frontal lobe chamber  the big spherical room  is shown. 

X:FC 5 could alternately go here (or later, around UX 40 according to Somebody?) 

BTS- Xavier leaves to search for Ororo a week before X:FC 8 - FB. 

X:FC 8  FB 
Jean receives a cryptic mental transmission from the missing Xavier in her sleep, and the X-Men check in with Cerebro, figure out where Xavier is, and plan to leave for Africa first thing in the morning. 

X:FC 8 
The day after X:FC 8-FB. 
The X-Men take a commercial jet to Africa and on a tip from Warrens aunt, they find guide Ken Hale (Gorilla Man). 
The jet the X-Men mentioned here as the one Xavier took could be Xaviers thought-controled private jet from UX 1 or possibly the new Blackbird mentioned in X:FC 1 & 5 (and 4?) 
Hale and the X-Men find Xavier trapped in a mystical temple and get trapped themselves before bursting free. 
After this, Xavier returns with the X-Men to Westchester. 

UX 22 
UX 23 
X-Men are given a vacation since last one was interrupted by the battle with the Mimic. [No actual ammount of time since UX 19 mentioned, just no other mentions of going on vacations can take place between then and here.] 
Professor X seems to be suffering the after-effects of X:FC 8. Caption: And thus, the X-Men depart- -little dreaming that they leave behind them an anguished mind, a soul in torment... Xavier: They can walk in the sunshine- -feel the wind striking their faces- -while I am comfined to this wheelchair- - a hopeless cripple! 
For the first time, Cyclops accepts a invitation to spend time socially with Jean (and Warren). 
The X-Mens vacation is interrupted when Count Nefaria & his villain team force the X-Men into helping them get blackmail money from Washington DC. 
At the end of UX 23 Jean gets a letter from her parents: they enrolled her at Metro and shes to leave the next day.

Last edited by metaldragon on Mon May 07, 2007 12:46 pm, edited 2 times in total. 

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Mon May 07, 2007 6:08 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

No problem, metaldragon. 

I've been working on reorganizing things myself, but I'm not quite there yet. I'll review your notes and compare them into my analysis and see where we are. I do have another note to add to X:FC 5: 

On the intro page, Jean notes that Bobby needs some advice on the girl down at the coffee shop and that she told him to just be himself  this would seem to indicate that this story occurs before Bobby and Zelda date, probably before he asks her out for the first time, in UX 14 (7-20). 

And that raises the following question: are the intro notes in each issue, written on yearbook pages by characters in the series, canonical? I don't see why they shouldn't be. Those notes refer to events that aren't depicted in the comics, and we should try to fit those events into the chronology as BTS events. We probably can assume the notes were written just prior to the start of each issue (with the exception of one that Xavier wrote, since he was away at the time).

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mon May 07, 2007 7:26 am 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
And that raises the following question: are the intro notes in each issue, written on yearbook pages by characters in the series, canonical? I don't see why they shouldn't be. Those notes refer to events that aren't depicted in the comics, and we should try to fit those events into the chronology as BTS events. We probably can assume the notes were written just prior to the start of each issue (with the exception of one that Xavier wrote, since he was away at the time).
<<<

They're Yearbook extracts, as X:F8 confirms - they're done after everything else in the series.

			*	*	*

Mon May 07, 2007 8:28 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
And that raises the following question: are the intro notes in each issue, written on yearbook pages by characters in the series, canonical? I don't see why they shouldn't be.
<<<

I disagree, if I understand what you're saying. It's one thing to say that Jean was behind the scenes here, in writing the note; another thing to say that the event Jean was describing would necessitate behind-the-scenes notations. 

Let's say that UX 723 leads directly into UX 724, that Jean appears in both issues, that Bobby appears in 723, and Hank appears in neither. In 724 Jean tells Shark Girl, "Last week, Bobby and Hank and I went to the store together." 

This would seem to necessitate listings, like so: 

MARVEL GIRL 
UX 724-BTS 
UX 723 
UX 724 

ICEMAN 
UX 724-BTS 
UX 723 

BEAST 
UX 724-BTS 

I really don't think you'll find anywhere else in the Project or in the Index where these kinds of things are listed, and I don't think they should be. Now some folks might contend that the listings would make more sense if they were flashbacks (UX 724-FB-BTS). Problem is, they aren't flashbacks. They're just a character talking about something that happened in the past. 


watching: heroes

			*	*	*

Mon May 07, 2007 11:44 am 
By metaldragon

I suppose the Yearbook notes could take place anytime between UX 7 and the X:FC issue it's in. 

[Edit: In the case of the one sent to Hale at the end of UX 8 it takes place sometime after that story of course.]

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Tue May 08, 2007 9:14 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Administrator wrote: 
>>>
I disagree, if I understand what you're saying. It's one thing to say that Jean was behind the scenes here, in writing the note; another thing to say that the event Jean was describing would necessitate behind-the-scenes notations. 
<<<

I think you're misunderstanding me, Russ. I'm suggesting that the events referenced in those yearbook notations are canonical events, not canonical appearances. Because the MCP is concerned with appearances, events that involve no appearances should not be listed in character chronologies here. 

What I was suggesting, however, is those notations may serve as clues to the placement of appearances. This may be handier for the calendar than for the MCP. You'll note that some entries in the calendar simply say "[BTS]" with no title or issue number noted. These are canonical events that involve no appeareances, actual or BTS. Those events were merely referenced in narration or dialog with no accompanying pictorial representation. (The existence of a pictorial representation of said event would qualify the event as a flashback as it involves an appearance.) 

If, for example, Bobby wrote in his yearbook, "I spent last Wednesday in Fiji," then I'll know not to put a comic that shows Bobby fighting aliens in Manhattan on that previous Wednesday. Not only that, but I'm not apt to put that Fiji event in the middle of a stretch in which Bobby's supposed to be hospitalized as per a published canonical story. 

I hope that clarifies my point about the yearbook notations. Sorry for the confusion.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Sat May 12, 2007 11:29 am 
By wolframbane

Regarding the X-Men's early knowledge of Cerebro. They may not have known its name, but they were aware that Prof X was working on a machine that could detect mutants even before Hank was recruited (early May, Yr 2). In UX 52/2: 

Prof X (to Cyclops, Angel and Iceman): I've been working on an electronic brain wave detector... far more sensitive than my own natural abilities. It's still top security though. So you three remain here while I see if that can tell us the boy's whereabouts. 

Iceman: Imagine... a robot brain-picker. Nothin's sacred any more.

			*	*	*

Fri May 25, 2007 7:29 pm 
By metaldragon

Should we start a new thread for the Special or continue on here? Just got my copy. Looks cooky."May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Sat May 26, 2007 3:24 am 
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The position on the X-Men's early knowledge of Cerebro is just plain inconsistent - it's introduced as a Big Secret, then they talk about it openly before the other X-Men, and then it's a Big Secret again, and then when the X-Men finally see it, Xavier just shrugs as if it was never that big a deal in the first place (although Cyclops still gets terribly worked up). It's just one of those examples of ultra-lax Silver Age continuity, and I don't think there's ever going to be a wholly consistent answer.

-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Sat May 26, 2007 10:01 pm 
By metaldragon

I just posted an analysis of X:FC Special 1 in the Issue Analysis section if anyone is interested.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thu May 31, 2007 2:05 pm 
By SKleefeld
Director

Here's an interesting twist to the whole debate. Jeff Parker, the author of this somewhat contested series, had this to say about First Class on his blog this afternoon...

Jeff Parker wrote:
>>>
This is probably only of interest to people who watch these debates at the Chronology Project or John Byrne Forum. You can find some interesting points from very smart readers, but also some heated zealotry where people list the capabilities of the Danger Room the same as your local religious fanatic will quote the Bible- hence the word canon. I tend to not post where Im insulted frequently, but were I going to, I would just advise everyone to just say our X-stories arent canon and save themselves a lot of work.

But the Agents of Atlas stuff? All that TOTALLY HAPPENED!
<<<


Emphasis mine.

			*	*	*

Thu May 31, 2007 2:41 pm 
By Somebody

Yeah, but he's treating "Canon" as different from "in continuity": 

http://www.parkerspace.com/2007/05/31/shooting-the-canon/ wrote:
>>>
While I consider our XFC stories in continuity, I dont think I can decide whats CANON. I think these are all modern heroic legends that will be added to and subtracted from, and what actually determines canon if anything, is the staying power of the parts generations of readers keep liking. Miller and Mazzucelli in Batman: Year One add in a bit with young Bruce falling into the cave and later the bat smashing through his window. Everyone liked that, so it got incorporated into later books and cartoons, and now its canon. Oh, and those pearls.
<<<

Basically, he's saying "The Canon" is stuff common to most or all versions from the time it's introduced. Whereas the sense the thread title's using "canon" (And the post he originally replied to) equates it to "continuity". And there's plenty of stuff in the MCP no-one remembers or wants to, and which - by that definition - certainly isn't part of "The Marvel Canon," even if it's in-continuity until proven otherwise. 

(I actually wonder - and I suspect that one of the reasons he wrote that post was to start this train of thought - how much Marvel stuff *is* Canon by that sort of definition, outside [aspects of] the origins...)

			*	*	*

Thu May 31, 2007 7:01 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
I would just advise everyone to just say our X-stories arent canon and save themselves a lot of work. 
<<<

I say we take him at his word, since he's obviously talking DIRECTLY to us.


>>>
This is probably only of interest to people who watch these debates at the Chronology Project
<<<

Quite so, no one else would or should care. 

I've always thought these stories weren't canon in any sense that we use it here at the Chronology Project. And since Jeff Parker apparently would agree with me..... 

Thank You Jeff! 

Note that canon has NO bearing on if the stories are any good or not, so Jeff shouldn't take any criticism from us to mean that his stories aren't good. We're trying to determine character chronology, which often puts us in the position of arguing over the canon issue.

			*	*	*

Thu May 31, 2007 7:37 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Couple of things from earlier in the thread, which I've just been scanning through... 

Dhall wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
Marvels #2 establishes (reinforced by a commentary column by Busiek in the TPB, that I may scan and post later) that the F4 wedding was on the morning of the Sentinels' debut. The exact same day.
<<<

If there's no gap in the original for that, then :p, but metaldragon has it.oh, all I'm saying is there's no gap therein the original. I understand what Busiek is doing, just pointing out that he's the one creating a gap, and that it's really not present if you were to just read UX 14. I'm not complaining about it either, just saying. I'd love to read his commentary column, since I don't have the TPB.
<<<

Never posted those, did I?

 

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Dhall wrote:
>>>
Another bonus of putting this before UX 7, is that we can then also not quibble over the name coffee @ go-go, or the very different look of the coffee shop in FC. We can just assume that Zelda worked at this place, then transfered to the coffee-a-go-go by UX 7.
<<<

That's assuming we'll never see Zelda at the Cofee@Go-Go again in First Class. There's still a special and an ongoing series to come, and somehow, I think she will pop up again. Probably at the Cofee@Go-Go. Also, wasn't Bobby snowy where you suggest?
<<<

The First Class Special actually gives evidence for the general principle (if not placing it before Bobby went icy in UX8 ) - the Go-Go near the school is referenced, but Bobby drags them down to Greenwich Village because that's where Zelda's working by that point.

			*	*	*

Thu May 31, 2007 8:49 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
I say we take him at his word, since he's obviously talking DIRECTLY to us. 
<<<

Actually, he was talking to whomever the zealot was. He also mentioned Alvaro's ComicBoards. Also, he had to qualify the statement: 

Jeff Parker wrote:
>>>
I tend to not post where Im insulted frequently, but were I going to, I would just advise everyone to just say our X-stories arent canon and save themselves a lot of work. 
<<<

I'm taking this to say that, if someone is so heated over the subject that they have to insult the creators, it's not worth it. That's not the same as saying it doesn't count. 


Here's another quote from the same blog: 

Jeff Parker wrote:
>>>
I consider our XFC stories in continuity
<<<

He says he considers First Class in continuity. That's the creator's intent. In the recent Special they included handbook entries in the back that include 616 backstory for these characters; editor's & publisher's intent. X-Men: First Class can fit with the original 60's comics. They may not be super conformative or whatever, but they can fit. They're intended to fit. X-Men: First Class 'counts.'

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:59 am 
By Dhall

>>>
They're intended to fit. X-Men: First Class 'counts.'
<<<

Fury, Not according to Jeff Parker.

He states that these do not count, 

>>>
But the Agents of Atlas stuff? All that TOTALLY HAPPENED!
<<<

It's a perfectly straight forward blog.

>>>
Someone mentioned that I consider the stories canon and I popped in to say that its not the case.
<<<

He does NOT consider X:FC canon. Unlike Agents of Atlas.

			*	*	*

Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:17 am 
By Somebody
Director

... 

Look at his definition of "Canon" again. It's not the same as yours.

			*	*	*

Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:20 am 
By Dhall

I disagree. He clearly states that X:FC didn't happen, but Agents of Atlas did.

			*	*	*

Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:38 am 
By Somebody

And again: 

Jeff Parker wrote:
>>>
I consider our XFC stories in continuity
<<<

He says he's not the final arbiter (which is true, since it may be retconned by anyone at any point in the future in whole or in part, as ANY story may be), but he's not saying it's not in continuity. Which is what you're taking. 

He says he's treating it as in-continuity. The fact that there's a present-day framing sequence on one of the stories in the X:FC Special says it's in continuity, and the Handbook entries at the end of X:FC say they're in-continuity.

			*	*	*

Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:48 am 
By Dhall

Jeff Parker said: 
>>>
I tend to not post where Im insulted frequently, but were I going to, I would just advise everyone to just say our X-stories arent canon and save themselves a lot of work.

But the Agents of Atlas stuff? All that TOTALLY HAPPENED!
<<<

"...our X-Stories aren't canon." 

Somebody, you are trying to twist this into Our X-Stories are canon.

			*	*	*

Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:53 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote:
>>>
Jeff Parker said:
>>>
I tend to not post where Im insulted frequently, but were I going to, I would just advise everyone to just say our X-stories arent canon and save themselves a lot of work.

But the Agents of Atlas stuff? All that TOTALLY HAPPENED!
<<<

"...our X-Stories aren't canon."
<<<

I read that as Parker is saying "those people [at the Byrne Forum and the Chronology Project] who are having a problem believing this story is canon should just not worry about it, and then you won't have a problem." 

The portion you're quoting doesn't say that Parker himself is treating the stories as "out of continuity" (whatever that means). 


watching: shrek

			*	*	*

Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:57 am 
By Somebody
Director

Exactly, thank you.

			*	*	*

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:05 am 
By Dhall

True that, but that's a bit different than what oh say Fury is saying, that the blog shows that X:FC 'counts' or that they're intended to fit. 

Parker says that it's up to future creators to see what sticks. So if we take that at face value We'd have to wait until these are incorporated into a future's writers story to see if they are canon. 

My take on Parker's post is that he is saying that if that does not happen (if no one ever references X:FC in another work) than it's not in continuity/not canon, and We should not worry about it until such time. 

>>>
Everyone liked that, so it got incorporated into later books and cartoons, and now its canon. 
<<<

Parker implies that this is the only way a work can become canon.

>>>
While I consider our XFC stories in continuity, I dont think I can decide whats CANON. I think these are all modern heroic legends that will be added to and subtracted from, and what actually determines canon if anything, is the staying power of the parts generations of readers keep liking.
<<<

Personally I find that the contradictions in X:FC take away from the parts of the X-Men that have attracted readers (Mastermind's identity contradicts the Dark Phoenix Saga, for one example.) 

So yes they're "in continuity" as every fictional story ever published is in a continuity, just not the same one we call Earth-616. Unless future writers decide differently.....

			*	*	*

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:19 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote:
>>>
Everyone liked that, so it got incorporated into later books and cartoons, and now its canon. 

Parker implies that this is the only way a work can become canon.
<<<

If that's what he meant to say, then I disagree with him. It's not the only way. In any case, Parker appears here to be speaking of canon "events," as in "Spider-Man gains his super powers from the bite of a radioactive spider" is part of the Spider-Man canon. 

And yes, I know, a story is nothing but a series of "events", but it sounds to me like Parker is using the word "canon" in a grander sense, what are the pivotal moments that make the character what they are? Not, did this story really occur in the lives of the "official" characters? 

In the sense that we normally mean by the term, Parker seems to be saying, "let's let history decide if First Class is canon; if the fans and future writers like these stories well enough, these events will be picked up in other stories, and become part of the canon." We tend to actually use a loser standard, in that events don't have to be referenced a second time, in order to be inserted into canon. We only ask that they not contradict previous canon, without explanation. 


watching: flip this house

			*	*	*

Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:20 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
My take on Parker's post is that he is saying that if that does not happen (if no one ever references X:FC in another work) than it's not in continuity/not canon, and We should not worry about it until such time. 
<<<

No, he's saying that X-Men First Class is in 616 continuity. He's telling people that don't agree/like it/are too worked up over it to not worry about it, they're just comic books. 

If you're waiting until these are referenced by a future story, does that mean the Wolverine/Jubilee Charleston Chew comic doesn't count? I don't recall it ever being referenced by any comics that followed it. If we used that criteria, we'd have to delete two thirds of the Project.(give or take, just an estimate) 

His definition of canon is wider than just comics, they're the overall mythology, including all media like cartoons and movies. His definition of canon doesn't exactly apply the way your definition does. The way he's using 'continuity' is similar to the way you're using 'canon.' 

You're taking what you like from his blog and ignoring his point: 

Jeff Parker wrote:
>>>
I consider our XFC stories in continuity
<<<

According to Parker & Marvel, X-Men: First Class counts. 

...and the Boss beat me to it.

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:11 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
f you're waiting until these are referenced by a future story, does that mean the Wolverine/Jubilee Charleston Chew comic doesn't count? I don't recall it ever being referenced by any comics that followed it. If we used that criteria, we'd have to delete two thirds of the Project.(give or take, just an estimate) 
<<<

I disagree with Parker on this point. And strangely enough agree with Fury.


>>>
According to Parker & Marvel, X-Men: First Class counts. 
<<<

However, I disagree with this! 


He uses the word continuity, but he then starts talking about King Arthur legends, and how there are multiple versions of continuity. 
Parker is NOT using the word continuity the way I am using the word canon. 

He's saying there are multiple versions of continuity, and that he likes to think of X:FC as 'in continuity.' He never defines which one, and he also states that he's never said that X:Fc was canon. 

He then draws a line between this and Agents of Atlas which counts. 

Why would he need to do this, if X:FC also counts? He could just flat out state that X:FC counts, instead the Atlas statement strongly implies that X:FC doesn't count. (Whatever that means.)

			*	*	*

Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:14 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Frankly, I could care less what the writer has to say. He's muddled the issue and isn't using terms the way we are. 

My understanding of his comments is that, if some people take issue with the X:FC stories, then those people can individually feel free to consider them out of continuity -- it's easier than him having to listen to those people nitpick and insult his work. However, if people take issue with Agents of Atlas in the same fashion -- too bad. Insert winky smiley. 

That's how I interpreted his blog entry. But again, I don't really consider his comments to have any weight either way. I'm waiting for an editor to say something, or (more likely) for the stories to be referenced in an upcoming Official handbook of some sort. 

I'm reminded of Nextwave, and the continuity debate that started when Warren Ellis stated that he wasn't going to cater to the canon-o-philes. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:41 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
And strangely enough agree with Fury. 
<<<

So a story doesn't have to be referenced by something else to count. Good. Now please don't try to apply the opposite to First Class just because it's First Class.  


Dhall wrote:
>>>
He uses the word continuity, 
<<<

Right...


Dhall wrote:
>>>
but he then starts talking about King Arthur legends, and how there are multiple versions of continuity. 
<<<

Wrong. That's when he's talking about his definition of 'canon.' Not continuity. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Parker is NOT using the word continuity the way I am using the word canon. 
<<<

In a similar way, yes he is. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
He's saying there are multiple versions of continuity, 
<<<

Um, no...


Dhall wrote:
>>>
and that he likes to think of X:FC as 'in continuity.' He never defines which one
<<<

He doesn't have to. 616 is the inferred continuity. He doesn't have to spell it out, most people understand what he's saying. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
He then draws a line between this and Agents of Atlas which counts. 
<<<

Why would he need to do this, if X:FC also counts? 


jephyork wrote:
>>>
My understanding of his comments is that, if some people take issue with the X:FC stories, then those people can individually feel free to consider them out of continuity -- it's easier than him having to listen to those people nitpick and insult his work. However, if people take issue with Agents of Atlas in the same fashion -- too bad. Insert winky smiley. 
<<<

Exactly. Thank you. 

And good point about the intent... ultimately it's irrelevant if something can't fit. But First Class can. 


jephyork wrote:
>>>
I'm waiting for an editor to say something, or (more likely) for the stories to be referenced in an upcoming Official handbook of some sort. 
<<<

The First Class Special included Handbook entries at the back, with 616 events as back stories for these characters that appear in First Class. And don't worry, I'm sure a future Handbook update will include something from First Class. They've been including everything lately. 

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:20 am 
By Dhall

Yes the Handbooks have been including everything regardless if we would consider it canon, novels, videogames, etc. Frankly, they're pretty useless for our purposes at the MCP. 

Parker confuses the terms canon and continuity, and uses them in ways that we would not. 

I never said that I thought something had to be referenced, I said that Parker said that. 


>>>
And good point about the intent... ultimately it's irrelevant if something can't fit. But First Class can. 
<<<

So far, very poorly, and only after mangling certain story lines, ignoring several incorrect depictions of Sentinels, accepting random costume changes, iffy depictions of Marvel girls telepathy, Blackbirds appearing in strange parts of the series, and a depiction of Cerebro that is completely at odds with what was shown in the original series. 

There are too many small problems with X:FC and they all require so much rationalization, that the series doesn't fit.

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:38 am 
By Somebody
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
There are too many small problems with X:FC and they all require so much rationalization, that the series doesn't fit.
<<<

*sigh* Haven't we been here before? 

Show of hands - who agrees with Dhall on this? 

Obviously, I don't.

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:11 am 
By Dhall
Director

>>>
*sigh* Haven't we been here before? 
<<<

No, we are STILL here. And as long as Marvel is publishing X:FC and creating more continuity fumbles, we will still be here until the series finishes. 

That is the nature of a thread called "X-Men: First Class canon?" 

There's still plenty of dispute. We're not going to come up with a final answer to this question, until the series ends, more people here read the trades, or Marvel starts publishing stories that explain some of the many flubs, or we hear something definitive from an editor 

There are many many continuity fumbles in X:FC. We've discussed this. Whether the accumulation of them all is enough to throw this series out of continuity is something that the Board of Directors will eventually have to make a ruling on. (And they will be taking all evidence from both sides of the debate.) 

And I stress the word eventually. We'll all still be arguing about this for some time to come! 

My position is that there are too many flubs. 
Is your position that there are no flubs, or that they aren't important?

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:10 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Some can be explained. Some aren't important. 

MY position, anyway. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:14 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Look at it this way: 

Any Marvel book 'counts' until it's proven that it's not. We don't have to prove that it counts, that's assumed. Kind of like innocent until proven guilty. 

I haven't seen anything that proves First Class isn't in 616 continuity. A number of points have been raised, all of which didn't really hold up. I won't bother relisting them here. 

But what if there's no place to put a book chronologically? With any other book that's canon but doesn't have a place to go, we just find the best place for it and move on. There's no reason I see to treat First Class differently. We've already found tentative places for all the existing issues, and I'm sure there's plenty of places for future issues to go. And if for whatever reason there's not, we'll find a place and move on. 

Dhall wrote:
>>>
Is your position that there are no flubs, or that they aren't important? 
<<<


jephyork wrote:
>>>
Some can be explained. Some aren't important. 
<<<

That's a pretty good way to put it. 

Is X-Men: First Class canon? Yes it is, until proven otherwise. 

Which hasn't happened yet.

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 03, 2007 6:56 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
Some can be explained. Some aren't important.
<<<

See I agree with this. This is what we do.

Where I depart from Fury though, is that I think that many of the 'explanations' I've heard from him, are merely devices to dismiss evidence, and do not serve to explain it. 


>>>
A number of points have been raised, all of which didn't really hold up.
<<<

I disagree. A number of points have been raised, and never addressed to my satisfaction.


>>>
Is X-Men: First Class canon? Yes it is, until proven otherwise. Which hasn't happened yet.
<<<

My position is that I think we've seen more than enough evidence to declare it non-canon. 

However, I do understand there's not enough of a consensus to do so. We're likely to see many more flubs in coming months.

And eventually, it's going to be the board that decides based on the strength of the evidence presented. To continue your legal metaphor, they are the jury hearing the evidence, and deciding on a verdict.


>>>
Kind of like innocent until proven guilty. 
<<<

I think you mean PRESUMED innocent until proven guilty, quite a different thing!

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:23 pm 
By SKleefeld
Director

Just a sidebar to this discussion, but I stumbled across this blog entry recently of writer Paul Cornell, talking about "canon." He's writing largely in reference to Dr. Who but he touches on some interesting points regarding the subject in general... 


Paul Cornell wrote:
>>>
Because when you say the books just arent canon! or the books happened and the TV show cant ignore them! youre not saying something like for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction, youre saying something like the South will never surrender. Youre yelling a battle cry, not stating the truth. Because there is no truth here to find. There was never and now cannot be any authority to rule on matters of canonicity in a tale that has allowed, or at the very least accepted, the rewriting of its own continuity. And youre using the fact that discussions of canonicity are all about authority to try to assume an authority that you do not have.
<<<

By which I don't mean to suggest that anyone associated with the MCP has any more or less authority than anyone else. In point of fact, it reinforces that the MCP's authority on matters of continuity is, ultimately, just an opinion. 

Like I said, just a curious sidebar.

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:41 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Found this blurb from Marvel on Newsarama: 

>>>
Summer might be right around the corner for most, but school is back in session for the five original 1! Thats right true believers, you demanded it and Marvel was more than happy to obligethe original team is back. Writer Jeff Parker and artist Roger Cruz are back with more in continuity stories about the early years of Xaviers first students and this time, its an ongoing series! It all begins with guest-star Invisible Girl, picked by Professor X to be a role model for Jean Greybut will things turn out fantastic or madtastic when a certain villain shows up?
<<<

Emphasis mine... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:50 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
more in continuity stories 
<<<

It seems like no two people can agree on what that means anymore.

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:01 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Not if one of them is you, no.

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:02 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Okay, we're quickly reaching "beating a dead horse" territory here. I'm reporting what I read in an official Marvel press release -- that's all. No need for snark, from either side of the debate. 

 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:53 pm 
By Dhall

You're right of course, Jeph. 

In any event, two things have become clear to me. 
One is that this thread has turned more destructive, than constructive. That has to stop. 

Two, my anger at the shoddy workmanship in X:FC is misplaced. After all, one could probably make the same charge about several other things that Marvel is currently publishing. There was once a time when many people at Marvel cared about research and continuity, that time has largely passed. So there is no point in my getting angry at X:FC in specific, when it's merely part of a larger trend.

			*	*	*

Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:38 am 
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Sure, and I think if you look at it in the wider context, the Silver Age was really very relaxed indeed about continuity as well. Stan Lee plainly wasn't paying much attention to little details such as "Do the X-Men know about Cerebro?", or "What are the characters' names?", or "Which country is this set in?" 

The phenomenon of taking continuity very seriously, at least on this level of detail, is one that took root with the next generation of writers, who came up from fandom - people like Roy Thomas and Mark Gruenwald. It's now a thing of the past, partly because today's writers and editors don't share that mentality, and partly because there is simply too much continuity for anyone but the most hardcore fans to really have a grip on.

-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:25 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote:
>>>
because there is simply too much continuity for anyone but the most hardcore fans to really have a grip on.
<<<

Thankfully that's where WE come in! Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:21 pm 
By Dhall

Paul writes: 
>>>
Sure, and I think if you look at it in the wider context, the Silver Age was really very relaxed indeed about continuity as well. Stan Lee plainly wasn't paying much attention to little details such as "Do the X-Men know about Cerebro?", or "What are the characters' names?", or "Which country is this set in?" 
<<<

Well I suspect Stan's memory for detail was the problem there, but yes continuity in the sense of story details was very relaxed in the Silver Age. 

However, character chronology was fairly tight, you'd often get a reference to a villain's last appearance, if not a full blow flashback to why they didn't really die at the end of that app. 

I wish we could get that level of continuity today!

			*	*	*

Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:28 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

This is becoming hilarious. From Comic Book Resources: 

>>>
Among the panel's major topics were continuity and timelines. A fan started the discussion by asking writer Jeff Parker if X-Men: First Class is in continuity. Parker confirmed that the title is in continuity, but cautioned that there is a difference between continuity and canon . What's going to stick is what people like, Parker said.
<<<

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:40 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

At least Parker's consistent with his definitions. 

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:03 am 
By Dhall

Without getting into a argument about X:FC in particular, how can a continuity-implant type series (especially one that is not well researched) be considered (by Parker's definitions) in continuity but not canon (unless lots of people like it, and it sticks?) 


>>>
What's going to stick is what people like, Parker said.
<<<

That's a strange definition of canon. It's almost like the editors haven't told him if he is meant to be writing a canon book or not, and he's trying to set it 'in continuity' at least as he sees it. 

For MCP purposes, I would really like to hear from Marvel's editors on X:FC.

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:46 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote:
>>>
>>>
What's going to stick is what people like, Parker said.
<<<

That's a strange definition of canon.
<<<

No, it's a dictionary definition. Dictionary.com (which claims to base it's definitions on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary) has this as one of their definitions for canon:

>>>
3. the body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art.
<<<

The canon for a character would be the events that make up the character's history, and it'll be up to future writers to determine if events written by Parker "make it into the canon." 

That's not the way we use "canon", but it's a viable definition, and he wasn't addressing his comments to us, so he's not bound by our definition. 


watching: 24

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:08 am 
By Dhall

Yes it is a dictionary definition, but it's a strange one to use in discussing comics. 

Generally speaking, in a shared universe, its the editors who decide such things as what is universally binding, not future writers. Otherwise, why have editors at all, if not to maintain "rules, principles, or standards?" 

(of course that doesn't prevent the occasional retcon, but I would imagine that an editor would have to approve that too.) 

Then again, perhaps these days, it is all about throwing things out there and seeing what sticks (or sells.) 

Hard for me to say, as I don't follow along with Marvels editorial policies that closely these days.

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:37 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

We've covered this before, Dave. 

Parker is using 'continuity' similar to the way you're using 'canon.' 

Parker is using 'canon' in relation to all media, including cartoons, movies, etc."Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:43 pm 
By Dhall

Fury, that's not really what we're discussing. I'm asking who really has that kind of say at Marvel. Writers or editors? What are today's editorial policies, or lack thereof at Marvel today?

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:55 pm 
By Somebody
Director

What an editor says today carries only a limited amount of weight - no editor can bind his/her successor(s), in the same way no writer can bind his/her successor(s). Even if no-one involved changes their minds at a later point.

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Subject: Bengal Note

Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:29 am 
By Enda80

BENGAL/ 
DD 258-FB 
NW 8-FB 
**M/CP 15/4 
DD 258 
NW 7 
NW 8 
NW 9 
NT 1 
M/K 11 
M/K 12 

M/CP 15/4 was published about 1-2 years after DD 258. However, in DD I#258, the Bengal reviews a list of his targets, with the slain ones ticked off. Talltrees/Red Wolf was shown as already attacked. 

Fabian Nicieza recalled writing a story in which War 
Machine met the Bengal. Was it ever published? 

> "Bengal ended up appearing in DD, New Warriors, an 
> IRON MAN/Rhodey story I did, and to tell you the 
> truth, a couple of others I've forgotten! " 

> manwithoutfear.com

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:05 am 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
M/CP 15/4 was published about 1-2 years after DD 258. However, in DD I#258, the Bengal reviews a list of his targets, with the slain ones ticked off. Talltrees/Red Wolf was shown as already attacked.
<<<

So, basically, you started this thread to tell us that we have our placement correct? 

 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:09 pm 
By Enda80

The Bengal's entry omitted his MCP 15 appearance.

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:32 pm 
By Somebody
Director

He's right you know Jeph. No listing. 

Although that leads to the thought - has the story (and, indeed, issue) been entered into the MCP as a whole? If not, it's not going in just one character's chronology Enda.

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:41 pm 
By Dhall

Red Wolf III is listed for MCP 15/4.

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:49 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Annnnd, THAT'S what I get for posting without my morning cup of coffee. 

Sorry, Enda. Although, in fairness, you might have actually *stated* that the entry is missing ... I honestly thought you were debating placement of a preexisting entry. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Subject: Marvel Indy Anthology

Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:46 pm 
By SKleefeld
Director

In case there's any doubt about the upcoming anthology book, I found this at Newsarama today... 

Aubrey Sitterson wrote:
>>>
Another great thing about it is that itll be a perennial seller, since it's not in continuity
<<<

My emphasis

			*	*	*

Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:51 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Waitaminute...don't comic books not in continuity tend to sell worse?!?

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:39 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Link for the record: http://forum.newsarama.com/printthread.php?t=117317 

I think that's half the point, they're looking not for something which will do well in comic shops (where I will be utterly shocked if it does not sink like the proverbial stone), but rather will sell lesser numbers for a long time in TPB. Ergo the use of "perennial" - something that will last many years, as perennial plants (trees, shrubs, etc) do, where annuals and biannuals make a splash and die off fairly quickly. 

Whether or not that will work out (I mean, look at the "Hulk Squad Smash" pages...) is another matter.

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Subject: Reed Richards meets Sue Storm

Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:18 pm 
By Agent of Shield

I swear I remember a story once (a John Byrne issue?) in which college student Reed Richards meets a very young Sue Storm when he's boarding at her family's house. I've seen written references to this in several background stories for both characters, yet I can't find the story in any FF issue I have, despite looking up the MCP references. 

Does anyone know in what comic this story takes place, if at all? Is it one of the MCP references? Canon?

			*	*	*

Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:25 pm 
By SKleefeld
Director

For as many times as it's been referenced, we've never actually been shown an in-continuity depiction of the first time Reed and Sue met. Or, for that matter, Reed living at Sue's aunt's. The earliest canon story that shows the two of them together is an introductory bit in What If #42 that takes place outside of the issue's "what if" scenario. But, by then, Sue herself is in college. 

Byrne did write a Ron Wilson pencilled story (Thing #2) about Reed in college where Sue is referenced, but never seen. This does occur shortly after Reed would've begun living at Sue's aunt's, but Reed is only shown in campus labs. 

There was another What If story -- I forget the issue number, but it was What If Dr. Doom Attacked the Fantastic Four Before They Got Their Powers -- that showed Reed living at the Storm residence. This is decidedly out of continuity. 

Reed and Sue's first meeting was also shown in the Roger Corman version of the FF film. Again, severely out of coninuity.

			*	*	*

Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:04 pm 
By wolframbane

In the OHOTMU:FF 2005, it was stated that when Reed was rooming at Sue's aunt Marykay Dinkins boarding house, the young Sue developed a crush on the older college student. 

I recall some reference to Reed being 23 when Sue was 12, indicating that they are 11 years apart. If we can cite the issue, I can use it as a reference for their birthdates for my FF Timeline. I figure Reed was born in Yr -30, and Sue Yr -19. On a sidenote, I figure Johnny is Yr -14 and Ben Yr -33.

			*	*	*

Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:32 pm 
By Peter Fabricius

Agent of Shield wrote:
>>>
I swear I remember a story once (a John Byrne issue?) in which college student Reed Richards meets a very young Sue Storm when he's boarding at her family's house. I've seen written references to this in several background stories for both characters, yet I can't find the story in any FF issue I have, despite looking up the MCP references. 

Does anyone know in what comic this story takes place, if at all? Is it one of the MCP references? Canon?
<<<

I think the scene you're thing of is Fantastic Four #291 page 14, where Sue believes Reed to be dead, and we see a montage of scenes. 
In the top right scene she is stated to be 12 and Reed a college freshman, and he has taken a room at her aunts Manhattan boarding house. 

The other scenes are the rocket launch, the crashlanding, and Reed and SUe kissing at their wedding.

Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:16 pm 
By Agent of Shield

That's it! Thanks!

			*	*	*

Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:28 pm 
By Agent of Shield

So my next question is: does that montage (or whatever) count in Reed and Sue's chronology? 

Seems likely to me. If so, we have a chronological appearance of Sue at 12 years old, and Reed as a "college freshman". This could mean they're about 6 years apart in age. Reed's placement here would be tricky - before/during/after his stint as a "college freshman" rooming with Ben Grimm (when we know he's 18)? Is there a reference anywhere else to Reed attending college anywhere but ESU? 

Here's another thought relating to the age difference between Reed and Sue: The first dozen issues of the FF clearly state that both Reed and Ben were involved in WWII. This would imply (based on real-time dating of FF #1 in 1961), that Reed was AT LEAST in his mid-thirties by the time of FF#1. That seemed to be Stan Lee's intent anyway in those early issues. 

More specifically, we know that Reed and Ben were roommates in college and are probably about the same age. We know from, I think it's FF #11, that Ben was in a couple of WW 2 battles, namely Guadalcanal and Midway. Midway was in June of 1942. Allowing for Ben and Reed to graduate with a 4-year degree and subsequent pilot training for Ben, this means that Reed and Ben would have graduated college no later than, say, the spring of 1942 (which if true, would be a QUICK upgrage to combat pilot for Grimm). So, backing up 4 years means they started their freshman in the fall of 1938. If this is true, this makes Reed and Ben about 40-ish when they rocket into space. If Reed and Sue are 6 years apart, she'd be about 34 in FF#1 (I always thought she seemed younger - wasn't there a Knights 4 book that stated she was 20 when they went into space). 

I'm rambling. This is long. Back to the bottom line: is the FF 291 scene with Reed and Sue in continuity (a flashback)?

			*	*	*

Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:12 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Agent of SHIELD wrote: 
>>>
wasn't there a Knights 4 book that stated she was 20 when they went into space
<<<

Yes. According to FOUR 1, Sue Storm was "twenty years old" at the time of FF 1. If MU time and real time were identical back then, then Reed would have been a college freshman in 1953 (when Sue was 12), which postdates his WWII service by a decade. Even if Reed went into service right after high school, you'd expect a big brain like Reed to enter college as soon after the war as possible. This would lead one to come to the conclusion that references to WWII are apocryphal. 

And, in fact, George Olshevsky addressed this in the Official Marvel Index to the Fantastic Four #1. In his comments for FF 11, "Reed Richards is seen working for the O.S.S. and Ben is seen as a pilot in the Pacific Theater in their origin flashbacks in this story. These references, elaborated in SGT. FURY AND HIS HOWLING COMMANOS #3 and CAPTAIN SAVAGE #7, and others to their participation in World War II may ultimately turn out to be topical. Chronological analysis, not yet completed, may establish that Reed and en are too young to have served in World War II. he reference in this story to Reed Richards and Sue Storm being childhood neighbors is not correct. Sue is considerably younger than Reed and was an infant during Reed's boyhood."

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:46 pm 
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
If MU time and real time were identical back then, then Reed would have been a college freshman in 1953 (when Sue was 12), which postdates his WWII service by a decade. Even if Reed went into service right after high school, you'd expect a big brain like Reed to enter college as soon after the war as possible. This would lead one to come to the conclusion that references to WWII are apocryphal.
<<<

I think I need to ammend your notes a bit here. 

I'm not sure where you're pulling 1953 from, Paul. We've never actually learned (that I recall) that Sue actually graduated college, nor do we know that she went right into college after high school (indeed, having to take care of Johnny, both seem unlikely) or that she wasn't still in college during FF #1. So I don't know that, if you want to start talking real-time dating, that we can use anything besides a birthdate of 1941 if you're working backwards from being 20 in 1961. 

But, to tackle things from the other direction, Reed would've had to have been 17 before 1945 to get any time fighting in Europe. If that were the case, he would've been about 33 circa 1961. 

While this does start to contradict things (if Reed were 12 years Sue's senior, and Sue was 20 in 1961, that would indeed make him too young to have participated in WWII) we've learned since FF #1 that the origin story takes place considerably before the Mole Man story. Between the flashback in FF3 50, M/FAN 46/2, Karl Kesel's Human Torch series and First Family, there's a huge amount of time between the origin sequence and the main Mole Man story of FF 1. 

All of this could be stretched (and, admittedly, it IS a stretch!) to say that the Pocket Rocket accident actually occurred when Sue was 20 in 1960. And, if her birthday was particularly early in the year, and Reed's is particularly late, then what might be called a 12 year gap (using simple year subtraction) might be closer to 13 years in terms of number of days. That could place Reed at 17 late in 1944 -- and 17 indeed was the draft age towards the end of WWII. Draftees at that time were required to server for six months after the war ended so, assuming basic training lasted for two months, that could still place Reed in Europe for the majority of 1945. 

(I might add, too, that it's been noted that Reed stayed in Europe for months after the war. That's where he met Lara Croft... err... Alyssa Moy. ) 

(I'll also add that it was established early on that Reed had several degrees before enrolling at ESU, so he wouldn't necessarily have been keen to jump back into school after his WWII service.) 

So it COULD work, it just requires a bit of creative thinking.

			*	*	*

Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:15 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

If we take the 'Major Richards' from Sgt. Fury #3 as Reed Richards, then he may be a bit older than that. 

In the early issues, Sgt. Fury seems to have been intended to take place later in the war. However, taking into account various time frame shuffles from Sgt. Fury's own book, plus Invaders, plus Marvel Universe... It pushes things forward a bit. To have Baron Strucker's Blitzkrieg Squad appear in Invaders 30 after they formed in Sgt. Fury 14, and for the previous Sgt. Fury issues to happen in publication order, I have Sgt. Fury #3 on 18 January 1942. 

Editor's captions aside, I'm under the impression that Major Richards is actually Nathaniel Richards, and that Reed did not serve in WWII.

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:45 pm 
By wolframbane

With my research into the ages of the various Marvel characters, I believe Ben would have to be at least age 34 by FF 1 in Year 1. Ben was a USAF Major when he undertook a mission with Logan and Carol Danvers into Russia in BFF:BGL 1-3. The OHOTMU:Wolverine states that this was oone of Logan's earliest missions for Department H, which he joined some three years before the formation of the FF, which would place it around Year -2. A USAF Major 'typically' has to have 9-11 years of experience to attain that rank, meaning Ben would likely be at least age 31 by this time, giving him a birthdate in Year -33 or earlier, and at least age 34 in Year 1. 

In addition, Ben underwent astronaut training at somepoint after this, which normally takes 2 years of training and begins and ends on even years. This could mean that after the mission to Russia in Year -2, Ben undertook astronaut training until Year 0, then retired from the USAF to pilot Reed's shuttle in Year 1. 

I also conjecture Ben's birthday is in late June/early July, given that he celebrates in 'second' bar mitzvah in FF3 56, which the Marvel Calendar places on July 5. A bar mitzvah typically occurs the week after a birthday. 

Here is my breakdown of the events of Ben's early life (some ages are conjecture): 

Year -33, early July. Ben is born. 
Year -25. Ben joins Yany Street Gang at age 8. 
Year -20, early July. Ben has 'first' bar mitzvah (age 13). 
Year -15, autumn. Ben enters ESU on football scholarship (age 18), rooms with Reed, meets Doom. 
Year -11, spring. Ben graduates ESU (age 22), joins USAF. 
Year -7. Ben undergoes test pilot training (requires rank of Captain, which itself needs 4 years of service). 
Year -4. Ben becomes test pilot (requires 27 months of training). 
Year -2. Flies Logan to meet Dr. Myron MacLain, later undertakes mission to Russia with Logan and Danvers, begins astronaut training. 
Year 0. Completes 2 year astronaut training. 
Year 1, late Feb. Exposed to cosmic rays and becomes Thing. 
Year 1, May. Joins FF.

			*	*	*

Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:14 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
I also conjecture Ben's birthday is in late June/early July
<<<

Ben celebrates a birthday in M/TIO 47, which occurs the third week of June (extrapolating from Olshevsky references), so that actually works pretty well!

BTW, I have Sue's birthday in September (FF 11), and Reed's in July (FF 271).


Sean K. wrote:
>>>
I'm not sure where you're pulling 1953 from, Paul. 
<<<

If you have Sue being born in 1941, then she was 12 in 1953.


Sean K. wrote:
>>>
I'll also add that it was established early on that Reed had several degrees before enrolling at ESU, so he wouldn't necessarily have been keen to jump back into school after his WWII service
<<<

But if he had already earned several college degrees as a teen, why would he be referred to as a "freshman" at some point after the war?


Sean K. wrote:
>>>
All of this could be stretched (and, admittedly, it IS a stretch!) to say that the Pocket Rocket accident actually occurred when Sue was 20 in 1960. 
<<<

Just be aware you'd have to make Johnny even younger (he's Peter Parker's age, IIRC) at the time of the fateful flight, not that that's a real problem.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:34 pm 
By wolframbane

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Ben celebrates a birthday in M/TIO 47, which occurs the third week of June (extrapolating from Olshevsky references), so that actually works pretty well!

BTW, I have Sue's birthday in September (FF 11), and Reed's in July (FF 271).
<<<

Thank you for that bit of info Paul. I can now add this info to my ever expanding list of Marvel characters birthdates!!


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Sean K. wrote:
>>>
I'll also add that it was established early on that Reed had several degrees before enrolling at ESU, so he wouldn't necessarily have been keen to jump back into school after his WWII service
<<<

But if he had already earned several college degrees as a teen, why would he be referred to as a "freshman" at some point after the war?
<<<

Here is the quote under 'Education' as to Reed: 
>>>
'Multiple scientific doctorates in fields such as engineering, math and physics from California State Institute of Technology, Columbia University, Harvard and State University, and others' 
<<<

Given his highly diverse and accelerated education in various institutions, it is possible his education occurred both before and after his military service. Plus, he would still possibly be considered a 'freshman' at any new shool he went to. And given his educational history, its unlikely we can use his schoolong to help determine his age. 

On the other hand, we might be able to figure out Doom's age. Although he was accepted into ESU despite his lack of a formal education, he may still have been the typical 'freshman' age of 18. Although he was was not necessarily the same age as the multidisciplined Reed, he did also attend with Ben (who I figure started in Yr -15) 

Also, Reed's service with the OSS (in early FF stories) would have at least occurred sometime after the OSS was historically formed in June 1942. 

As for Johnny's age, the X-Men Index #2 review for UX 24 indicates both Jean Grey and Johnny Storm enlisted in Metro College (approx age 18) in late August of Year 4, giving them a birthdate of Year -14.

			*	*	*

Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:10 am 
By Agent of Shield

Here are some thoughts on wolfbrame's analysis of Ben Grimm's USAF career: 

1) Wolfbrame is right on with his assessment of how long a USAF officer serves in the ranks he describes - in today's USAF 
2) That wasn't always the case. In the early Army Air Corps days, officers were often promoted at inconsistent intervals - look up the history of Curtis LeMay. He was a lieutenant for several years before being promoted to captain, then skyrocketed to Major General and beyond in just a few short years during WW II. Over the years, the times required for advancement in rank have differed. 
3) I realize most back stories for Grimm make him a USAF officer, but the earlier versions have him as a USMC officer (hence his participation in Guadalcanal). Check out Captain Savage and his Leatherneck Raiders #7. I think Grimm is modeled after a guy named Marion Carl. Check it out. 
4) This is the Marvel Universe. Who knows how long it takes someone to get promoted in the Army/Air Force/Marines? Wasn't Glenn Talbot a major forever? 

Also, real time and Marvel time notwithstanding, here's all I know about Reed and Sue's ages: 

- Reed age 18: Reed meets Ben Grimm and Victor Von Doom at ESU, his "freshman" year (presumably, at least Grimm is about the same age; Doom may be around that age as well but there's no evidence) 
- Sue age 12: She meets Reed, a college "freshman", when he rooms at her aunt's (we don't know how old Reed is for sure - what's he a freshman of? Which college? In the illustration in FF 291, he looks quite young - I'd say pre-wartime; does this occur before or after he meets Grimm and Doom?) 
- Sue age 20: The pocket rocket FUBAR 

Has anyone decided if Sue's flashback in FF 291 should be included in her or Reed's chronologies? If so, when?

			*	*	*

Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:46 am 
By Somebody
Director

Agent of Shield wrote:
>>>
4) This is the Marvel Universe. Who knows how long it takes someone to get promoted in the Army/Air Force/Marines? Wasn't Glenn Talbot a major forever?
<<<

Don't you need some level of success to get promoted? 

			*	*	*

Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:16 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Ha! Poor Talbot...

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:26 pm 
By Starman

And let's not forget that it's easier to get promoted in wartimes than in peacetimes...

- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

			*	*	*

Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:54 am 
By wolframbane

I have been knocking around a rough version of my timeline for Dr. Doom, trying to figure where events for his life intersect with the FF and others. 

YEAR -33. Victor von Doom is born. (assumes he is approx same age as Ben Grimm, who I lso think was born in Year-33, as they attended ESU together) 
YEAR -29. Cynthia Von Doom dies on Midsummer's Eve. (Books of Doom #1. Victor was 4) 
YEAR -21. Werner Von Doom dies. (OHOTMU:FF. Sometime before Victor becomes a teen, ca age 12) 
YEAR -15. Gets scholarship to ESU, meets Reed and Ben. (assumes he is age 18) 
YEAR -10. Face scarred in accident, leaves ESU, lives with monks in Tibet. (assumes near the end of 4 year education at ESU) 
YEAR -5. Leaves Monks and conquers Latveria (Books of Doom #4. 5 years in Tibet) 
YEAR 2. First faces FF (FF 6)

			*	*	*

Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:53 pm 
By Agent of Shield

I always assumed Doom blew up his face in his first year at college.

			*	*	*

Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:14 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Agent of Shield wrote:
>>>
Doom blew up his face 
<<<

Ha! That's awesome. 

But yeah, I had assumed The Accident was in his freshman year, also. Did the recent Books of Doom mini nail it down?

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:32 am 
By wolframbane

I have not yet come across any reference to exactly how long Doom was at ESU for, nor when his accident happened. As far as I can tell (and further research may help me narrow this down), it could have happened anytime during his years there before he was expelled. 

We do know that it occurred sometime during Reed's time at ESU, but I am still trying to nail down his academic history. He earned multiple scientific doctorates in fields such as engineering, math and physics from California State Institute of Technology, Columbia University, Harvard and Empire State University, as well as possibly other schools. He entered school at age 14, and was in them until at least age 23 when he met Sue while attending Columbia. His multiple degrees, and the fact that he is a child prodigy and took several accelerated courses makes the timeline of his time at school hard to determine!!

			*	*	*

Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:32 am 
By SKleefeld
Director

GAAAAHHHH!!!!! 

Fantastic Four #543 actually shows, for the first time, Reed introducing himself to Susan at her Aunt Jewel's house. 

Susan says the she was "13 years old, staying with my Aunt Jewel over the summer. And you [Reed] were her tenant, a 20-year-old college man, with several PhDs under his belt." 

So, evidently, Reed is only SEVEN years older than Sue now, and Reed's not only gotten several degrees, but several doctorates. We're now well into "there's just no way I can make this work any more" territory.

			*	*	*

Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:53 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
she was "13 years old, staying with my Aunt Jewel over the summer. And you [Reed] were her tenant, a 20-year-old college man
<<<

That's kinda dirty. How is it that Reed's not locked up in the 42 prison over this? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:09 pm 
By JD

According to this issue, it was only an unreciprocated, platonic "schoolgirl crush" at the time. It is not until they "met again years later" that they actually hit it off. 

So it's not THAT creepy. Still...

			*	*	*

Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:05 pm 
By Agent of Shield

>>>
Susan says the she was "13 years old, staying with my Aunt Jewel over the summer. And you [Reed] were her tenant, a 20-year-old college man, with several PhDs under his belt." 
<<< 

Read the following and add the sarcastic tone: 

Obviously Sue's memory is a bit off (must be all those times she strained herself using her force fields). She has memories of being both 12 and 13 when she meets Reed. Which was it, Sue? And the 20-year-old college student thing is obviously a reference to Reed being in college for 20 years, not his age. It takes time to get all those degrees. 

How's that work? 

On a serious note, I'd like to see where the MCP finally puts this particular bit of chronology - I presume it will be before Reed and Ben's war years.

			*	*	*

Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:56 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I can take a stab at the whole 12/13 issue. I theorize that Reed and Sue met in August ("summer"), just before Sue's 13th birthday in September. Sue was 12 but very close to 13 and remembered the year as the year she turned 13. 

This meeting would have occurred eight years before the fateful flight from FF 1, in which Sue was 20. (Early during the year of her 21st birthday, I theorize, based on FF 543 marking the anniversary of the flight.) 

I frankly don't know what to do about the reference to Reed being 20 when he met Sue. Those war years sure are problematic, unless 20 was meant to be 30 -- even creepier. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:36 pm 
By Shmi

SKleefeld wrote:
>>>
Susan says the she was "13 years old, staying with my Aunt Jewel over the summer. And you [Reed] were her tenant, a 20-year-old college man, with several PhDs under his belt." 
<<<

Was this before her father went to jail? I was under the impression that Sue and Johnny had lived with their aunt from then until Sue turned 18.

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Subject: COLLINS, EMMA

Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:19 pm 
By Enda80

COLLINS, EMMA 
CB 13 
CB 15 

Was she in Excalibur around #20?

			*	*	*

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:59 am 
By dimadick

She was dying in "Captain Britain" vol. 2 #14 (February, 1986) and left on a last journey by ship. Written by Alan Davis. 

Then she inexplicably turned up alive and back to her duties in both "Excalibur" #19 (February, 1990) and #27 (September, 1990). Both appearances written by Chris Claremont. 

Excalibur #47 (February, 1992) revealed that Emma had actually died after her last Captain Britain appearance but Jamie Braddock had used his reality-altering powers to bring her back from the dead. Written by Alan Davis. 

Whether Jamie could have actually resurrected Emma or just created an illusion of her was up for debate for some time. His recent resurrection of Psylocke probably affirms his ability to restore people to life

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Subject: Placement of Sensational Spider-Man Annual #1

Fri May 25, 2007 6:55 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I think I've determined the ideal spot for the second story in this week's Sensational Spider-Man Annual #1 -- a spot in the calendar in which one winter day in which Spidey fights Electro is followed by another in which Spidey fights Vulture. 


Thursday, February 14 
SPIDER-MAN'S TANGLED WEB #10 (1-14) 
On a "freezing" afternoon (probably the prelude of the coming snowstorm seen in TW 11), a couple of boys watch TV when Electro crashes into their apartment. The boys stand up to the villain, then Spidey arrives and smacks Electro. 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL #1/2  FB 
I have placed this flashback on the same day as TW 10 (1-14). Spidey belts Electro, as captured by Petes camera. 
SPIDER-MANS TANGLED WEB #10 (15-22) 
The same day as TW 10 (1-14); I have this segment on the same day as SENSM@ 1/2-FB. Spider-Man captures Electro. Then Spidey leaves the boys a check for damages, a check he was going to use for the rent (which means he is not leaving at his aunt's by this time), to repair the damages. The oldest kid cancels going out with a girl (for Valentine's Day?) to watch his little brother because their mother is sick in bed. 
... 

Friday, February 15 
PETER PARKER, SPIDER-MAN v2 #37-FB (4p3-13) 
One day. Peter awakens with a cold on the morning of a school day in which he has no "lesson plans prepared," only to discover 
that a blizzard (Peter's exaggeration: "about fifty feet of snow piled up") on the "coldest day on record" in New York City has 
forced school cancellations. Aunt May calls Peter to ask him to come dig her out of a snowdrift; Peter offers subway cancellation 
as an excuse for not coming over, but May doesn't accept the excuse, which may be a sign she not only knows Peter is 
Spider-Man, but that she's known long enough to feel somewhat comfortable with the knowledge. Barker watches Spidey leave; 
on the way he finds the Vulture who gets mad at Spidey for "always" interfering at his every turn, now after just assaulting again 
a diamond store (as in TW 11). They fight. 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL #1/2 (1-5) 
I have placed this segment on the same snowy day as PPSM2 37-FB (4-16). A homeless girl named Leah is wrapped in a Daily Bugle whose front page has the headline, Spider-Man in Shocking Battle, and a photo of Spidey fighting Electro (which I have as a reference to TW 10 from the day before). She looks up and sees her idol Spider-Man fighting with the Vulture up on the rooftops. She retreats to her cardboard box home, which is decorated with pictures of Spidey. She drifts into unconsciousness, dreaming of being with Spidey and his hero friends. 
PETER PARKER, SPIDER-MAN v2 #37  FB (14-16) 
The same day as PPSM2 37-FB (4-16); I have this segment on the same day as SENSM@ 1/2 (1-5). Spidey and the Vulture finish their fight and the villain dares Spidey to meet him in thirty minutes at the site of their first battle. 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL #1/2 (6) 
I have placed this segment on the same day as PPSM2 37-FB (14-16). After finding Leah unconscious in her box, Spidey brings her to a hospital, where a doctor tells him that shes dying. Spidey kisses her on the cheek and she dreams of him. 
PETER PARKER, SPIDER-MAN v2 #37 (1-4p2) 
The same day as PPSM2 37-FB (4-16). Spidey contemplates the day's events waiting for the Vulture. We see a snowstorm. 
PETER PARKER, SPIDER-MAN v2 #37 (17-22) 
The same day as PPSM2 37 (1-4); I have this segment on the same day as SENSM@ 1/2 (6). Spidey battles the Vulture with the Human Torch at his side; we don't see Johnny flamed off here, so it's possible that he's wearing the robo-tech suit from FF3 45 (8-22), or he may be unable to flame off, placing this segment during the "several days" between pages 7 and 8 of FF3 45; I chose the former so as not to break up an issue in Johnny's chronology. Later, Peter digs Aunt May out as the radio announces that the temperature is in "the minus thirties" with "an additional wind-chill factor of minus twenty." We see a snowstorm.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:32 am 
By cweed4

you mean FNSM annual #1 pt2?

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Subject: Storm's early chronology and New Mutants I#34

Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:25 pm 
By Enda80

New Mutants I#34 has Magik time-travelling to see the young Ororo stealing from Xavier in Egypt. There seems to be a few new panels of Ororo fleeing after the Shadow King interrupts Xavier's scolding her for picking his pocket. There seems to be a few new panels not depicted previously.

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Subject: Hela in New Mutants#37

Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:20 am 
By Enda80

Hela 

T 331 
T 354 
NMSE 1 
UX@ 9 
**NM 37 
T 361 
T 362 
T 366 
T 371 
T 372 
T 373 

The context is that Danielle Moonstar, as a member of the valkyrie, sees visions indicating her fellow mutants will die-a demon over Illyana's head, an angel over shan, Pluto over Amara's head, etc. Looking in the mirror, she sees Hela. Since the vision of Hela actually talks to Danielle, that would suggest this was in fact a psychic communication from Hela.

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:31 am 
By Enda80

ZOLA, ARNIM 
XF@ 3/3-FB 
SVTU 17-FB 
FURY 1-FB 
{CA 208} 
CA 209 
CA 210 
CA 211 
CA 212 
SVTU 17 
A@ 13 
CA 350/2 
M/CP 24/3 
**CA 369/2 
CA 383/4 
CA 387/2 


In CA 369/2, the Skull is stuck in a bunker, trapped by Magneto. Several visions of people he knows appear to him due to hunger and exposure, including Zola. However, I think that Zola could have been actually in psychic communication with him, as he refers to certain issues of fidelity in his mind/clone transer process that were brought up nowhere else that I know of but these details were noted in the Hate-Monger's Master Edition entry.

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Subject: M/SH3 4/4

Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:36 pm 
By Dhall

Spitfire 
INV 14 
M/SH3 4/4  Shouldnt this be FB ??? 
INV 15 
INV 14 -?????? 
INV 18 

Anyone know why M/SH3 4/4 is placed where it is? In this story, Spitfire is an old woman, and it is set long after WW II. Only a brief fb takes place during the war. Even that shouldn't be put between INV 14 and 15, unless it is necessary, as those are part of an ongoing storyline. 

Also, I'm confused by the second mention of INV 14 in Spitfire's chronology. 
Can anyone enlighten me? All of issue 14 occurs before issue 15, as far as I can tell.

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:14 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I have no idea why Invaders 14 is split in her chronology.  

As for M/SH3 4/4, I don't own that yet, but it should have a FB notation at least. It's on my list for Chicagocon, but could you give me a quick synopsis if the FB?

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:19 pm 
By Dhall

MS/H3 4/4 
Spitfire is 72 years old in this issue, published in 1990. (Though that's all topical, it puts her year of birth as 1918 or so.) 

She's aged, in a hospital, in a wheelchair. Her cancer has gone into remission, BUT her legs are paralyzed. 
At the hospital, a nurses mutant boyfriend goes on a rampage and starts killing people. Spitfire drags herself out of the wheelchair, and hits him. The man smashes into a tree, but comes back swinging. Spitfire goes down, then when the mutant grabs the nurse, Spitfire uses a sonic boom to knock over a war statue onto the man, and also pulls the nurse out of the way. This kills the mutant. 

I'm not sure where this story goes, but it's long after the war. 


Flashback: 
She is already Spitfire, in costume, but inexperienced. She's also under fire. Her powers protect her from the full blast, but she is stunned. A medic rushes to her aid, and is shot down. She cradles him in her arms. 
There is NO context to this flashback, other than what I've stated above. 
It probably shouldn't go during the middle of a storyline, but anywhere else would be fair game.

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:41 pm 
By Arthur
Director

The placement was taken from a suggestion of mine a few years back when the FB was first added (and yes, it should be M/SH3 4/4-FB). 

Here's what was submitted... 

>>>
new entries marked **

SPITFIRE/LADY JACQUELINE FALSWORTH CRICHTON

INV 14 (1-22)

**M/SH3 4/4-FB (4p2-p6) Re placement: Occurs during the early days of World War II; Spitfire herself states she was woefully inexperienced at the time the flashback occurs. There are bodies around, explosions and a uniformed medic. The first time Spitfire is shown coming into contact with Allied troops at the front is in Africa in INV 25. By then she had been in combat in occupied Poland, dealt with the Crusaders in Britain, had flown to Berlin, been captured and sentenced to death by Hitler and made good her escape. By this time she may NOT have considered herself woefully inexperienced. On the other hand the bodies dont have to be from front line combat. They could be civilian/military personnel injured/killed during the Blitz; the explosions could be German bombs falling on London. Thats the interpretation I have gone with. INV 14 page 22 ends at dawn; page 23 starts in the afternoon. There are at least 6 hours where Jacqueline could have zipped out to help during a bombing run, and then returned. This experience with death and guilt may even have contributed to her attitude that evening when, after she has words with the Torch, she says to herself He means so well...I was too harsh with him. INV 15 (7p2) 

INV 14 (23 on)
.
.
. 
M/CP 89/3-FB
**CA 253
M/SH3 4/4
N 12-FB
**N 11 (27p2, 28p1)
<<<

The M/SH3 4/4 'current' time appearance was in the listing at that time (sept 2003) 


As to why INV 15 is now showing before the end of INV 14... looking at the posting now, it seems possible that Administator misread my INV 15 reference note at the end of the placement logic paragraph as being a part of the suggested new listing order.

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:38 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks for clarifying, guys! 

I think the inexperienced bit holds some weight, and agree with Arthur that by the time the plot wraps up she wouldn't consider herself as such any longer.

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:57 pm 
By Dhall

I can get behind that, thanks guys!

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:30 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
MS/H3 4/4
Spitfire is 72 years old in this issue, published in 1990. (Though that's all topical, it puts her year of birth as 1918 or so.)

She's aged, in a hospital, in a wheelchair. Her cancer has gone into remission, BUT her legs are paralyzed. 
At the hospital, a nurses mutant boyfriend goes on a rampage and starts killing people. Spitfire drags herself out of the wheelchair, and hits him. The man smashes into a tree, but comes back swinging. Spitfire goes down, then when the mutant grabs the nurse, Spitfire uses a sonic boom to knock over a war statue onto the man, and also pulls the nurse out of the way. This kills the mutant.

I'm not sure where this story goes, but it's long after the war.
<<<

Any reason why it would have to move with the sliding timeline (wouldn't take much of course - references to just about anything would do)? If not, it might simplify things to leave it as 1990 Absolute and thus fit between her last pre-modern appearance and first Marvel Age appearance.

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:35 pm 
By Dhall

The sliding timeline has nothing to do with chronology, and the 1990 is the date printed on the cover of the book, not the date in which the story is set. (Sorry if I was confusing about that, I was merely amused with working out Spitfire's date of birth, and age during WW II. Which has nothing to do with the chronology, I know.) 

The Seventy Two years old thing, is mentioned in the story, but isn't really important to the chronology either. 

And it's also pretty obvious that this story has to occur sometime after CA 253-254(since she's a bit younger, and walking around in those issues.) 
It also has to occur before Namor 11-fb, and 12 (in which she refers to M/Sh3 4/4, and gets made younger by a second transfusion of the Torch's blood.) 

Oh, and by the way M/CP 89/3 is in the wrong place too. It should be after Namor 12. (Which is referenced in the story, and she's already young again.) 

The flashback occurs during the blitz, so it might be okay where it is. 


So... 

Spitfire 
... 
INV 14 
**M/SH3 4/4-FB 
INv 15 <--Remove 
INV 14 
... 
INV 41 
M/U 1-FB 
M/CP 89/3-FB 
M/CP 89/3 <-Remove 
CV 1-FB 
CV2 1 
CA 253 
CA 254 
M/CP 42/3-FB 
**M/SH3 4/4 
N 12-FB 
N 11 
N 12 
**M/CP 89/3 
...

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Subject: Invaders

Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:49 pm 
By Dhall

I've been reading the Invaders, and as usual I have some additions, corrections, and questions: 

Additions: 

STUART, BILL 
GSINV 1 
INV 5 
M/PRM 30 

Hotchkins 
INV 7 
INV 8 
INV 9 
INV 14 
INV 15 
INV 26 
INV 34 

SCARLET SCARAB/DR. FAOUL ( add first name Abdul) 
INV 23 
INV 25 

Corrections: 

Patriot not in INV 7 

Phantom Eagle is in INV 7-Fb where he teamed up with Union Jack during WW I. 

Giant Size Invaders 2: 
Hitler isnt shown in this issue, so this should be a behind the scenes app. for him. 


There is a page of flashbacks in INV 37, which contains new material, which is not listed in the project. 
It takes place during Liberty Legions fight with Iron Cross (from INV 35.) 
It has Iron Cross, Thin Man, Jack Frost, Patriot, Blue Diamond, Red Raven, and the Whizzer. 
One of the Nazis fires his gun, then the Thin Man punches him. Another one has dropped his luger, and Jack Frost fights him. Red Raven, Patriot, and Blue Diamond attack Iron Cross. Im not sure how this fb fits in with INV 35 exactly, but it is new material. 


INV 31: The monster who appears in this issue, is not the Frankenstein's monster created by Victor Frankenstein, but according to this issue, a prototype created by Basil Frankenstein, and Dr. Kitty Kitagowa. 
So unless this has been retcon'd, this app. should be removed from the listing for Frankenstein's monster. 


Baron Strucker does NOT appear in INV 40, but DOES appear in INV 30. 


Questions: 

For Struckers squad, INV 30, is listed after SGTF 22, but for the Howling Commandos, INV 35 is listed between SGTF 21 and 22. Which, if either is correct? 

I have no idea if its possible, but according to the letters page in INV 35, Inv 35 supposedly pre-dates Captain Americas famous guest-shot way back in the early days of the Sarges own mag. 


Invaders2 corrections: 

Invaders2 #1 
We could possibly give Roosevelt and Churchill a BTS for this one, as according to news reports, they are meeting in Washington. 

Human Top/Davey Mitchell appears in INV2 1-FB (not in the main issue) 

Also Thin-Man appears BTS in the same FB (as he says he saw the Kid Commandos at a war bond rally the previous day, so he must have been in the crowd.) 

VISION/AARKUS 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 13 
{INV2 3} 
INV2 4 

I'm guessing that INV2 3 wasn't his first published app., so the brackets are on the wrong comic. 


HORTON, PROFESSOR PHINEAS T. 
INV 22-FB-FB 
**INV2 3-FB 
MARVEL COMICS 1 
INV 22-FB 
M/U 1 
V2 3-FB 
FF 238-FB 
{A 135-FB} 



There are origin flashbacks in INV2 3 for: Spider-Queen, Strongman, Human Meteor. (No idea if those are new information or not.) 
Theres also an origin flashback for the Blazing Skull (which again, I have no idea if its new information or not.) 


BLUE BULLET/PROF. JOHN GOLDSTEIN 
INV 12-FB 
{INV 11} 
INV 12 
**INV 2 3-BTS 
INV2 4 

He is mentioned in issue 3, as being held and working at the underground base, that Dr. Death is using to attack the U.S. So he should get a BTS for that issue.

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:22 pm 
By Enda80

Spider-Queen et al. were actually pre-Silver Age characters who fell into the public domain, and were not published by Timely.

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:33 pm 
By Dhall

Yeah, that's why I have no idea if the flashbacks are new material, or something that was covered in a non-Timely comic.

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:38 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dhall wrote:
>>>
VISION/AARKUS
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 13
{INV2 3}
INV2 4

I'm guessing that INV2 3 wasn't his first published app., so the brackets are on the wrong comic.
<<<

Although we should probably update the Key to reflect it, the curly braces can also note a character's first published appearance in the modern age (hence A 4 in Captain America's listing, and FF 4 in Sub-Mariner's listing, are both enclosed in braces). 


watching: parent trap

			*	*	*

Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:25 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
For Struckers squad, INV 30, is listed after SGTF 22, but for the Howling Commandos, INV 35 is listed between SGTF 21 and 22. Which, if either is correct? 
<<<

Neither, as I have it:
BARON STRUCKER/WOLFGANG VON STRUCKER
...
SGTF 14
INV 30
MU 2-FB
SGTF 20
...

FURY, SGT. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH
...
SGTF 17
INV 35
DRSTR2 50
DRSTR2 51
M/HOL 1994 JAN/2 (4:5-4:7)-FB
SGTF 18
...

I think I suggested moving this in one of my batch Sgt. Fury analyses, but I can't remember which one.  


Dhall wrote:
>>>
I have no idea if its possible, but according to the letters page in INV 35, Inv 35 supposedly pre-dates Captain Americas famous guest-shot way back in the early days of the Sarges own mag. 
<<<

I agree with the MCP that SGTF 13 has to occur before INV 35. I tried to make that note in the letters page work, but Strucker's & Zemo's chronologies wouldn't let me.

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:14 am 
By Enda80

Dhall wrote:
>>>
Yeah, that's why I have no idea if the flashbacks are new material, or something that was covered in a non-Timely comic.
<<<

It remains ambigous whether their appearances at their original publisher should count as canon for Earth-616. 

MVL does not often acquire characters from other companies, in contrast to DC, which has acquired Prize, Charlton, Fawcett, and Quality properties. 

The only similar case I can think of is the Red Fury Ghost Rider, who has been referred to in the Western Handbook and in Nick Fury's MK Handbook entry.

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:11 pm 
By jephyork
Director

They acquired and used Malibu characters... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:28 pm 
By Enda80

Malibu characters were not as similar, as they remained in their own universe, and were not presented as suddenly having existed on Earth-616 all along (though that is more along the lines of what DC did, with Earth-S, Earth-X, and Earth-4, although some acquired characters had Earth-1 and Earth-2 counterparts).

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:56 pm 
By Dhall

As I understand though, we're talking about public domain characters that Marvel just used, not one they bought up. 

I can't think of a comparable situation, but I would imagine that the prior company's chronology would apply, as it's referenced in Roy Thomas' article in Invaders 2. 

If the chronology wasn't meant to apply, there would be little point in using pre-existing characters, easier to invent one's own I should think.

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:27 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
...there would be little point in using pre-existing characters, easier to invent one's own I should think.
<<<

It **is** Roy Thomas we're talking about here, remember?

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:37 pm 
By Dhall

Yes, I know...<sigh> but he was the one referencing it, for whatever that's worth.

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Subject: Magneto

Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:36 pm 
By Mikhail

Magneto's current chronology is 

UX 17 
UX 18 
X 76-FB 
A 47 
A 48 
A 49 

As far as I'm aware, the only Magneto flashbacks in X 76 are relating to his attempted recruitment of Maggott. But Magneto was on the Stranger's World between UX 18 and A 47. I'd suggest moving X 76 between UX 104 and CA@ 4 -- Magneto was probably searching for new recruits then, since he showed up with a brand new group in the Cap annual.

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Subject: Avengers Collector's Edition #1 (Charleston Chew, etc)

Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:44 am 
By JLH

Continuing my "sendaway Samba". 

------------------------------------ 
THE AVENGERS COLLECTOR'S EDITION #1 [1993] 
-Cover lists the book as "Sugar Babies, Charleston Chew, Sugar Daddy, Presents, Avengers". 
-Ad for it appeared in Marvel comics as early as those cover dated September 1993. 

"Vibrant Alchemy!" 
Words: Pat Garrahy 
Pencils: Mike Gustovich 
Inks: Tom Palmer 

Cast: 
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN GRANT ROGERS 
BLACK KNIGHT V/DANE WHITMAN 
CRYSTAL 
HERCULES 
VISION II 
MADISON, TAYLOR 
BLACK PANTHER III/T'CHALLA 
LYNNE, MONICA 
VIBRANIUM/BARU 
DIABLO II/ESTEBAN DE ABLO (also in FB) 
TITANIUM (also in FB) 
CARBON (also in FB) 
NEON (also in FB) 
COBALT (also in FB) 
PHOSPHORUS (also in FB) 
PLUTONIUM (also in FB) 
HYDROGEN (also in BTS in FB) 


Other characters: 
Various Wakandans 


Summary: The Avengers go to Wakanda for a celebration. Upon landing, they're informed by some guards to leave their weapons aboard the Quinjet. Black Knight immediately becomes suspicious, but obliges, securing the weapons for his team. The rest of the team heads into the Royal Palace, only to discover the people they've come to visit, Black Panther, his Queen, and other Wakandan council-type guys, are being held hostage by Diablo! Having been put on alert ahead of time by Captain America (over Dane's initial suspicions), Vision phases out of the room immediately, without being seen. Hercules gets angry at the villain's claims of dominance over the Avengers, and gets zapped down by Diablo's associates, the Masters of Alchemy! As he explains, they used to be the Elements of Doom, and now have joined him in taking control of the world. He's starting in Wakanda in an attempt to use its Vibranium to create a living army made of the kinetic-absorbing material. Once Diablo notices Vision is missing, he has Plutonium kill one of the hostages. While he takes the hostages to the Vibranium Mound, he sends off Cobalt and Neon to track down Vision. Black Knight becomes aware of trouble within the palace, knocks out the guards at the Quinjet and heads inside with Cap's shield and his laser saber. He runs into Neon and Cobalt, defeating Neon by reversing the polarity of his blade and stabbing her with it. Almost overpowered by the large and monstrous Cobalt, Vision's timely phasing saves Dane. At the mound, Diablo starts putting the moves on Taylor Madison, which angers Hercules into getting beat down by Titanium. Black Panther's getting pretty sick of Cap's eagerness to just stand around and do nothing, and is rewarded by having his betrothed, Monica Lynne, being targeted for use as the first of the hostages to be banished to another realm and replaced by a being of Vibranium. Not willing to let his Queen die so quickly, Baru steps up to take her place, hoping it'll make up for recent failures on his part in the eyes of T'Challa. As Baru is banished, Crystal uses her powers to smack Diablo on the head with a rock. Black Knight flings Cap's shield to him, but misses, stabbing Carbon in the chest with it instead. This ticks off the creature, he turns into his hardest form and strikes at Vision, who goes intangible, causing Carbon to slip into Plutonium and destroy the transfer module! Hercules gets some physical-pounding revenge on Titanium. While Crystal protects the hostages, Captain America recovers his shield and combats Phosphorus, eventually stuffing the flaming fellow into a well-placed open drum of machine oil, sealing him safely away. Nearby, Black Panther deals with Hydrogen, overcoming the misting being's attempts to suffocate him by exhaling Hydrogen out while holding an exposed conduit, seemingly destroying her. From the ashes of the transporter module thing, Plutonium and Carbon emerge as a painfully composited being, lashing out with all kinds of radiation. Crystal warns she might not be able to keep everyone safe from it, but luckily, the creature made from Vibranium emerges from the dimensional device thing hungry! He feeds on the composite creature's energy, wiping it out, and growing as a result. Vibranium reveals to Black Panther that he's Baru in this new body. Refusing to even seek a reversal to his current state, Vibranium sees himself as the totem of his people's wealth and heads off into the jungles to use his gift for the people of Wakanda. While everyone's distracted, Diablo tries to get away, only to get knocked out by Taylor Madison, prompting Herc to claim she'll become an Avenger yet. Cap rallies the team into gathering up the Masters of Alchemy into proper containment devices so they can be sent back to their own world, in an effort to recover the dimensionally-displaced people. Once they're done, they've got an anniversary to celebrate at the palace! 


Flashback: A one panel shot of Wonder Man, Ms Marvel, Scarlet Witch, and Quicksilver running at a set of pod-like structures (presumably from A 188). Next is new stuff, showing the reactor the Elements were buried beneath had a meltdown, forcing the facility to be covered with cement. We then see, "six months ago", Diablo finding and freeing the Elements of Doom, and forging an alliance with them as the Masters of Alchemy. 


Continuity notes: Vision's in his multi-colored form. 

The Avengers all wear their brown coats, including Captain America (this, as far as I can tell, is the only time he did so). 

It's never explained why Sersei and Black Widow aren't with the team, but they are featured on one of the card inserts as part of the current roster at time of publication. 

The uncut card sheet insert included in the center of the book has information on the back in the form of "notes from the personal diary of T'Challa- The Black Panther". 

There's a footnote to Deathlok #23-25 when Baru mentions hoping to make amends for his failures. 


Goofs: The word balloon when Diablo welcomes the Avengers has his dialogue end coming from Captain America. 

Diablo, in the FB, clearly says the Elements of Doom were buried on Earth. He then talks about the nuclear facility going meltdown and being buried under cement. And the next shot has him breaking the cement and freeing the Elements, yet the narrative caption screws things up by saying he "broke the dimensional barrier" and brought them "to our world again". He seems to be confusing "buried underground" with "trapped in another dimension". 

Yeah, they get the terminology concerning Vibranium wrong (calling it a metal), but... ahh well. 

Hydrogen is absent in the group-shot introduction of the Masters, and in fact doesn't appear at all in the book until she attacks T'Challa (where she only appears as whisps of smoke). Her fuller form is only visible on the card insert. 


------------------------------------ 

It came to my attention when researching this that the Elements of Doom featured in the Thunderbolts were actually new versions compared to the ones from Avengers 188. So I've corrected a few in relation to this issue here. 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN GRANT ROGERS 
... 
A 366 
**A:CE 1 
H2 406 
... 

BLACK KNIGHT V/DANE WHITMAN 
... 
A 366 
**A:CE 1 
SLEEP 26 
... 

CRYSTAL [INHUMAN] 
... 
A 366 
**A:CE 1 
XF 88/2 
... 

HERCULES [GREEK GOD] 
... 
A 366 
**A:CE 1 
SLEEP 26 
... 

VISION II 
... 
A 366 
**A:CE 1 
SLEEP 26 
... 

MADISON, TAYLOR 
... 
A 359 
**A:CE 1 
A@ 22 
... 


BLACK PANTHER III/T'CHALLA 
... 
M/CP 148/3 
**A:CE 1 
FFU 1 
... 

LYNNE, MONICA 
... 
DLOK2 24 
**A:CE 1 
BP3 11-FB 
... 

**VIBRANIUM/BARU 
(replace the existing BARU listing with this) 
DLOK2 23 
A:CE 1 

DIABLO II/ESTEBAN DE ABLO 
... 
S-M 20/2 
**A:CE 1-FB 
**A:CE 1 
FFOR 12-BTS 
... 

**TITANIUM 
A:CE 1-FB 
A:CE 1 

CARBON 
A 188 
**A:CE 1-FB 
**A:CE 1 

**CARBON II 
TB 6 

**NEON 
A:CE 1-FB 
A:CE 1 

COBALT 
A 188 
**A:CE 1-FB 
**A:CE 1 

**COBALT II 
TB 6 

PHOSPHORUS 
A 188 
**A:CE 1-FB 
**A:CE 1 

**PHOSPHORUS II 
TB 6 

**PLUTONIUM 
(current Plutonium should be given a "II") 
A:CE 1-FB 
A:CE 1 

**HYDROGEN 
A:CE 1-FB-BTS 
A:CE 1

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Subject: DEADPOOL LIMITED SERIES 1993

Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:19 am 
By Dhall

Deadpool #1 
August 1993 

Characters Appearing: 
Deadpool 
Weasel 
Kane/Weapon X 
Juggernaut 
Banque, Louis 
Black Tom Cassidy 
Courier 
Halfghanaghan, Nyko 
Slayback 


Notes: This occurs sometime after X-Force 22, and Cable 1. 

Deadpool 2 
Sept. 1993 
Characters Appearing: 
Mr. Gezdbadah 
Deadpool 
Juggernaut 
Black Tom Cassidy 
Sluggo/Bernard Hoyster 
Carlysle, Dorothy 
Copycat/Vanessa 
Courier 
Commcast 
Weasel 
Weapon X/Kane 
Slayback 

Deadpool #3 
Oct. 1993 
Characters Appearing: 
Deadpool 
Rive 
Makeshift 
Commcast 
Copycat 
Courier 
Weasel 
Slayback 


In Flashback: 
Deadpool 
Copycat 

Second Flashack: 
Weapon X/Kane 
Deadpool 

Deadpool #4 
Nov. 1993 
Characters Appearing: 
Weasel 
Deadpool 
Slayback 
Copycat 
Weapon X/Kane 
Zero 




Black Tom Cassidy 
 
XFOR 4 
XFOR 5 
**DPOOL 1 
**DPOOL 2 
TS 2 
V:MADNESS 1 
V:MADNESS 2 
XFOR 30 
XFOR 31 
 

*CARLYSLE, DOROTHY 
DPOOL 2 

COMMCAST/GARABED BASHUR 
**DPOOL 2 
**DPOOL 3 
XU 3 
X 38-BTS 
TB 51 



COPYCAT/VANESSA GERALDINE CARLYSLE 
DPOOL3 -1 
**DPOOL 3-FB ~ DPOOL 3 -1 
**DPPOOL 3 -1 
{NM 98} 
NM 99 
NM 100 
 
XFOR 20 
XFOR 21 
XFOR 22 
XFOR 23 
XFOR 24 
C2 4 
**DPOOL 2 
**DPOOL 3 
**DPOOL 4 
W2 88 
C2 37 


COURIER II/JACOB GAVIN 
**DPOOL 1 
**DPOOL 2 
**DPOOL 3 
XU 18 
GAM3 0.5 
UX 361-FB-BTS 
GAM3 1 

DEADPOOL/JACK/"WADE WILSON" 
DPOOL3 36-FB 
DPOOL3 30-FB 
DPOOL3 33-FB 
DPOOLTU-FB 
DPOOL3 -1 
**DPOOL 3-FB ~ DPOOL 3 -1 
**DPOOL 3-FB 
DPOOL '98-FB 
DPOOL '98-FB 
DPOOL '98-FB 
DPOOL '98-FB 
DPOOL3 36-FB 
DPOOL3 36-FB 
DPOOL3 36-FB 
DPOOL3 35-FB 
DPOOL2 2-FB 
DPOOL3 36-FB 
XU 28/2-FB 
DPOOLTU 
{NM 98} 
XFOR 2 
XFOR 4 
XFOR 5 
 
XFOR 22 
XFOR 23 
XFOR 24 
DPOOL 1 
DPOOL 2 
**DPOOL 3 
**DPOOL 4 
DPOOL2 1 
DPOOL2 2 
DPOOL2 3 
DPOOL2 4 
 

Juggernaut 
 
XFOR 2 
XFOR 3 
S-M 16 
XFOR 4 
XFOR 5 
DRSTR3 44-FB 
DRSTR3 44 
H2 402 
H2 403 
H2 404 
**DPOOL 1 
**DPOOL 2 
TS 2 
V:MADNESS 1 
V:MADNESS 2 
V:MADNESS 3 
XFOR 30 
XFOR 31 
 

*MAKESHIFT 
DPOOL 3 

*NYKO/NYKO HALFGHANAGHAN 
DPOOL 1 

PICO/PICO HALFGHANAGHAN 
XFOR 11 
XFOR 13 
XFOR 14 
DOMINO 1 
Does not appear in Deadpool but needs his real name added 

*RIVE 
DPPOL 3 

SLAYBACK/TERRAERTON <-Add real name 
**DPOOL 1 
**DPOOL 2 
**DPOOL 3 
**DPOOL 4 
W '95/2-FB 
W '95/2 

SLUGGO 
XFOR 22 
XFOR 23 
XFOR 24 
**DPOOL 2 

WEAPON X II/GARRISON KANE 
XFOR 8-FB 
C 1-FB 
C 1-FB 
C 2-FB 
C 2-FB 
**DPOOL 3-FB 
{XFOR 2} 
XFOR 7/2 
XFOR 9/2 
XFOR 10 
XFOR 11 
XFOR 12 
XFOR 13 
XFOR 14 
AF 117 
C 1 
C 2 
C2 1 
C2 2 
C2 3 
C2 4 
NOM2 20 
**DPOOL 1 
**DPOOL 2 
**DPOOL 4 
W2 88 
C2 37 
C2 38 
C2 39 
 

WEASEL II/JACK HAMMER 
DPOOL3 11-FB 
{C2 3} 
DPOOL 1 
DPOOL 2 
DPOOL 3 
DPOOL 4 
DPOOL3 1 
DPOOL3 2 
DPOOL3 3 
DPOOL3 5 
DPOOL3 6 
DPOOL3 7 
 

Zero 
 
XFOR 1 
XFOR 6 
XFOR 9/2-BTS 
C 1 
C 2-BTS 
XF 77-BTS 
XF 78 
X 13 
X 14 
XFOR 16 
X 15 
UX 296 
X 16 
**DPOOL 4 
C2 6 
C2 7 
C2 8

			*	*	*

Thread 30

Subject: Spider-Man Family vol 2 #1 & 2

Mon May 21, 2007 5:12 am 
By JLH

Bi-monthly fun, with a buttload of reprints! 

------------------------------------ 
SPIDER-MAN FAMILY, Vol 2. #1 [April 2007] 
"Homesick" 
Writer: Sean McKeever 
Penciler: Terrell Bobbett 
Inker: Gary Martin 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER (also in FB) 
VENOM (also in FB) 
SANDMAN/WILLIAM BAKER/"SYLVESTER MANN"/"FLINT MARKO" (also in FB) 
BLACK CAT/FELICIA HARDY (FB only) 
MUGGINS, MAMIE (FB only) 

Other characters: 
Mule and Fat guy (dock workers; also in FB) 
Mattie and Guy (shipmates; also in FB) 


Summary: Spider-Man's alien costume, on a night "adventure" without Spidey being aware of being taken along for the ride, stares at the sky atop a roof overlooking the docs, with Peter lying unconscious nearby. He's homesick, ya see. He bonds again with Peter, and reaches the docks, attacking the workers loading some boxes off a ship. Sandman, one of the dock workers, comes out of self-imposed retirement as a criminal to fight back at his old foe for messing with his friends on this honest job. Since it's the symbiote in control, Spidey seems to forget basic facts concerning fighting Sandman, like how he can't get hold of him. Soon, Sandman grows bigger and knocks over some huge shipping crates, burying him beneath them. Leaving Peter's body underneath, the symbiote breaks out and goes mallable against his equally mallable enemy. This freaks out Sandman, and the battle ends with the symbiote getting inside his body and then inflating massively, ripping him to shreds. With Sandman now reduced to sand particles, the symbiote approaches a broken crate, and finds a meteroite, marked NWA 931, supposedly found in 1967 about 20 km South of Edmonton, Alberta, Canada by a farmer named Alan Latta. He recognizes it as a piece of his home planet. Touching it briefly, the suit instead turns to the pile of crates, aware his new home lies beneath. The next morning, Peter Parker wakes up in his bed in pain, unable to remember what happened the night prior after being out on the roof. He wishes his costume could talk, but doesn't really care about theanswers to his questions, all that matters is he's home. The symbiote, in suit form, would probably agree, but it makes no indication of it. 


Flashback: One panel showing the Venom symbiote among others attacking aliens while on their home planet. This is the earliest chronological appearance for the creature. 

Second panel shows the device that served as the symbiote's "jail" prior to Secret Wars. Generic enough to not count. 

Third panel shows Spider-Man first bonding with the symbiote. His red & blue costume is oddly intact during it! 

Fourth panel has the alien costumed Spidey swinging through the city generically. 

The main FB covers the start of the story, starting with an "EARLIER" caption. One night, Spider-Man faces some gun-smugglers on the docks. Nearby, Sandman and a pair of other dockworkers bemoan the fact Spidey is involved with stopping a crime, no work will be getting done tonight with all the police that'll be showing up soon. Meanwhile, out at sea, a ship is a mile away from dock, containing a box which'll be important later. So, Spidey webs up the guns and criminals and departs, only to have his suit web him in a different direction! Despite his protests, the alien suit causes Peter Parker to launch himself into the East River! Unbeknowst to him, the suit is after that box on that ship. So, after a short swim, Spidey heads home, worrying his alien costume is broken. After getting hassled by his landlady for the rent, he takes a shower, and finding himself especially tired, he decides he'll have to blow off his girlfriend, Black Cat, and get some sleep. He does, giving the symbiote a chance to slither up and try to hijack his body. But Pete finds himself overtired, and unable to sleep, decides to go for a spin. He swings down and stops a female thief on a motorcycle during a police chase. Soon, he winds up on a rooftop, realizing what he's doing isn't getting him sleepier, but hyping him up on adrenaline. So, the suit whips up a makeshift mallet, and knocks Peter on the head! With his human host unconscious, the symbiote is free to use his body to make his way to the docks. Spider-Man swings across the city, avoiding crimes. One person he's unable to avoid is Black Cat, Peter's girlfriend. She doesn't understand his silent treatment of her, since he stood her up tonight not the other way around. When she tries to touch his face, the suit hisses at her and whips up some tendrils, before swinging away, Felicia left puzzled. 


Continuity notes: The cover has a "BACK IN BLACK" banner, though none of the tales within actually take place during the modern era of that storyline. 

As the intro page notes, this tale takes place before Peter knew his costume was "becoming a little TOO attached". 

This is the first time Sandman has encountered Spidey in his black suit. It's mentioned Spidey "disappeared for a while" prior to appearing it, according to the "rags". 

When the suit webs in a different direction than Pete wants, he says it's "gotta be acting up again", and he also says it's not the first time it's acted like it's got a mind of its own. 

Black Cat is Pete's girlfriend at this point, and they're on good terms throughout (which narrows things down in placement). 



Goofs: Mamie Muggins doesn't look anything remotely like she's always been drawn. She's about 900 lbs with hair in curlers, instead of the stringy-haired, skinny hag. 

Black Cat's costume is drawn to the current Dodson-made look. 


Calendar notes: Full moon. Pete promises to get Muggins her rent on "Thursday". 


----------- 
Story 2: 
A 1-page Mini-Marvels tale. 

----------- 
Story 3: 
Hellcat & Black Cat in... "Catfight" 
Writer: Fred "Furball" Van Lente 
Penciler: Federica "Minx" Manfredi 
Inker: "Tabby" Terry Pallot 

Cast: 
BLACK CAT/FELICIA HARDY 
HELLCAT/PATSY WALKER BAXTER HELLSTROM (actually CAT/GREER GRANT NELSON, see below) 

Other characters: 
Guards 


Summary: In Chicago, one night a while ago, Black Cat sneaks into a museum. The entire story is narrated with a nature show a guard is watching, talking about cats. Felicia knocks him out, unaware that the costumed heroine, the Cat, is lurking nearby, watching as she prowls through the place, eventually overcoming laser wires and other obstacles. In the Egyptian exhibit, Cat attacks Black Cat, they fight, with Cat proving the victor. Once Black Cat is tied up, Cat checks her bag, finding no stolen items within! As it turns out, Felicia merely planted a calling card beside a glass-encased statue amid the laser wires, telling them their security stinks and if they want to improve it to call her. The guard awakens and sets off the alarms, prompting Cat to drag her captive out of the place before the guards swarm in. Atop the roof, Cat informs the newbie Black Cat that this town is her's and she's marked it as her own, meaning Felicia will have to go elsewhere. Black Cat steals her wallet to show just how "new" she is, and leaves, promising to look her up if she's ever back in town. 



Continuity notes: It takes place "A WHILE AGO". Black Cat is "new". She's convinced to go to New York since "super-types aren't so territorial there". You can ignore the whole "Black Cat as a security specialist" angle, despite the fact she started out as a criminal. You can even ignore the fact Black Cat didn't choose New York to start out for any reason other than the fact her father was there. But what's majorly messed up? 

The story has the Hellcat logo (from her 2000 mini) at the start. She's never called Hellcat in the story, though her wallet that Felicia snags has "Patsy Walker" as her name on her license. As I discovered in trying to place this story? Hellcat has never been based out of Chicago! Instead, it was THE CAT who did that, well before she became Tigra. I'm not sure who screwed this up. Cat's costume is not the exact one Hellcat used, this one has the "cat's claw" mark on the chest. No whiskers on the mask, yellow eyebrows, dark blue. Yellow body suit. The only problem is her hair color is red. 

Anyway, so they screwed up, and rather than just dump this tale, all you have to do is ignore the "Hellcat" logo and the "Patsy Walker" thing (unless Cat stole Patsy's wallet just prior to this tale). And the fact Cat became Tigra in like 74 and Black Cat didn't debut until 78, meaning it took her a hell of a long time to "move to New York". 



----------- 
Story 4: 
Another 1-page Mini-Marvels epic. 

----------- 
Story 5: 
A reprint of Untold Tales of Spider-Man #3. 

----------- 
Story 6: 
Yet another 1-page Mini-Marvels story. 

----------- 
Story 7: 
A reprint of The Amazing Spider-Man #176. 

----------- 
Story 8: 
One last 1-page Mini-Marvels gag. I say "1 page" very loosely. 

----------- 
Story 9: 
Spider-Man J: "A New Assassin From Beast Road" 
Original Story and Art by Yamanaka Akira 
Translation: Yuko Fukami 
English Adaptation: Zeb Wells 

Non-canon. 

------------------------------------ 
SPIDER-MAN FAMILY, Vol 2. #2 [June 2007] 
"Undone" 
Writer: Sean McKeever 
Artists: Kano with David LaFuente 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
BROCK, EDWARD "EDDIE" ALLAN CHARLES 
VENOM 
WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 
URICH, BEN 


Other characters: 
Damasco, Ione (dies) 
Peggy (Daily Bugle intern) 
Fischer, Francis 


Summary: Venom attacks a woman named Ione Damasco in her limo one night. Spider-Man appears, saving the woman, but instead of engaging in a fight with his foe, Venom snarls about him minding his own business, and departs! Spidey is stunned by his abnormal reaction, and proceeds to question the woman about why Venom was after her, only to have her stonewall. Cops show up, cutting the questioning short. The next monring, Peter ponders Venom's current schemes, while eating cereal with his wife, who suggests leaving a trail of breadcrums next time he's lost in thought. Soon, at the Daily Bugle, Pete tries getting some answers from reporter Ben Urich, who doesn't know much, if anything. Thus, Peter uses the Daily Bugle's computer archives to research some of the names, finding a connection in that all the names mentioned by Venom were on the border of directors for Devlin-MacGregor Pharmaceuticals, and most all of them were recently murdered! Once back home, Peter informs Mary Jane of Venom being back, and despite her protests and concerns, he makes his case that what his enemy wants has to do with his life before bonding with the suit, and he hopes to reach out to Eddie Brock to try to stop him. That night, despite high security, Ione Damasco is murdered by Venom. The next day, Pete gives Ben Urich a list of more people connected who might be targeted next. Ben urges Peter to let him give this info to the police, since a superpowered psychopath is involved. But Peter presses on, doing more research until he passes out at home with piles of paperwork. When he awakens, he finds a file left by Venom, detailing the complete story that Brock once covered and buried. As it turns out, Devlin-MacGregor tested a hair growth drug on unwilling transients. Brock found this out, and was going to blow the whistle, when the company hired a hit man to target his wife. So he kept quiet all these years, and is now getting back at them for it. Spider-Man tracks down the last of the board members in charge of putting Brock's wife in danger, and does his best to keep Venom from killing him. An electrical fire in the room cuts short their fight, snapping Spidey out of it when he's getting prepared to go over the edge and eliminate the threat to his own wife once and for all. Our hero rescues Fischer, the board member, bringing him to a hospital. Soon enough, the story about the "Murder for Profit" makes headlines in the Daily Bugle, Peter having passed the researched to Ben Urich, who shares a byline with Eddie Brock for it. With Fischer facing charges and the story finally out there, Venom seems pleased. But as he tells himself while reading the paper outside of Pete & MJ's window at night while they're sleeping, this doesn't make him even with Parker at all, and they aren't finished with him yet. 



Continuity notes: The cover has a "BACK IN BLACK" banner, though none of the tales within actually take place during the modern era of that storyline. 

We see that "The Pulse" is listed on dailybugle.com. 

Eddie's full name is listed here as "Brock, Edward Alla-" (the file is cut off by the panel edge), backing up the previous use of the "Allan" middle name from Planet of the Symbiotes. Having two middle names isn't uncommon, especially for a Catholic. 

Placement for this isn't as hard as I'd thought. Pete and MJ are living in an apartment together. Here's the big thing, Pete makes a big deal about "maybe Brock is still himself in there, somewhere" and wants to see if he can get Eddie to "fight the symbiote". MJ mentions they're "permanently bonded". This places thing square after the Spectacular Spidey vol 2 arc where cancerous Eddie permabonded with the suit. Specifically, after the Venom vs Carnage mini where we had a "symbiote controlled Venom", and before Marvel Knights Spider-Man, where we had Eddie suddenly back to normal and getting rid of the suit. 


Goofs: Frances Fischer is called "Max Fischer" on the Daily Bugle.com photo. 


Calendar notes: Skies are clear throughout (partly cloudy in the morning). No moon ever visible. 

Page 1: A yellow piece of paper with doodles all over it, telling us about Eddie Brock and Venom, as written by Peter Parker in a bored mood. 
Pages 2-5: Night. Clear skies. Venom attacks the limo of Ione Damasco on Central Park West. When Spider-Man stops him, Venom merely departs. Unable to get answers from the woman and with the arrival of cops, Spidey also leaves. 
Pages 6-10: The next day, trees seen with leaves (possibly browning), Peter eats breakfast with Mary Jane. He goes to the Daily Bugle, asks Ben Urich for some info (Gustav Dahlberg was suffocated in his home "just this past week", obviously by Venom), then searches the paper's archives via computer, finding a connection to Devlin-MacGregor Pharmaceuticals (Daniel Bollinger was mauled to death "two weeks ago", obviously by Venom). He informs Mary Jane, and gets her to understand they're not currently in danger from Venom, as this connects to his Daily Globe past. 
Pages 11-12: That night, full-trees visible, Ione Damasco is killed. One of the many guards she hired turns out to be Venom in disguise. 
Pages 13-14 panel 3: The next day, word about Ione is known at the Daily Bugle. Peter gives Urich a preliminary list of next targets, but the danger of involvement with Venom has the senior reporter urging him to give this info to the police. Instead, Pete begins visiting offices and libraries, doing investigative reporting on his own. 
Page 14 panels 4-6: After "three days" of research, Pete is overwhelmed with files. He finally passes out around sunset in his living room. 
Pages 15-22: That night, Peter awakens to find a note left by MJ telling "sherlock" to come to bed, and a file left by Venom detailing Brock's fully researched story concerning Dev-Mac Pharm. As Spider-Man, he confronts the last remaining board member, Fischer, about the fact their company tested hair growth drugs on unwilling transients, and got Brock to keep quiet about it when he found out. Venom shows up, informing him they threatened his wife. Fighting ensues, Peter seemingly ready to kill Venom, but an electrical fire breaks out, so he saves Fischer instead. Venom is forced to retreat from the flames. Fischer is brought to the hospital, with Peter then calling the police and Ben Urich with the research Brock left him to finally get the story out. 
Page 23: Circa sunrise, possibly that same night or maybe even one day later, Venom reads the Daily Bugle article on the "Murder for Profit, Former Dev-Mac Board Members Implicated in Homeless Deaths, by Ben Urich from research by Eddie Brock". He claims this doesn't make them even with Parker, and departs, while Pete and MJ slumber peacefully in their home. 


----------- 
Story 2: 
"Building A Better Lizard" 
Writer: Paul Benjamin 
Artist: Vasilis Lolos 

Cast: 
LIZARD/DR. CURTIS CONNORS 

Other characters: 
Gordon 


Summary: Dr Curt Connors drops into a college lab unannounced, wanting to see what his start grad student, Gordon, has for a secret experiement he's been hiding for months. It's a genetic replicator, replacing genes switched off in one species with active ones from another, so as to replicate their abilities. Of course, Curt goes ballistic when he discovers the stuttering student is using lizard DNA. Turns out, Gordon knows his alter ego as the Lizard, and is trying to help cure him of it. But since he stutters so much, he's unable to explain before Curt gets a royal mad-on and starts trashing his equipment, thinking the boy wants to become like him and have the ability to become a super-strong creature. The agitation turns Curt into the Lizard, who then smacks the boy around, thinking he wants to become like him to challenge his superiority. Anyway, in trying to keep the device from being destroyed, Gordon finally gets over his cowardace and even stops stuttering, but ends up knocked into the machine. Lizard reverts to Connors, who is horrified by what he's done to the boy, having learned he only wanted to cure him. Soon, an ambulance arrives to take Gordon away. He now has the mind of a simple lizard. Curt vows to not rest until he's rebuilt the devices and is able to cure the boy like he wanted to cure him. Unbeknowst to Dr Connors, in the lab wreckage, one of the lizards is crawling around with Gordon's mind inside it! 


Flashbacks: Two panels showing Lizard fighting Spider-Man all so very generically some time ago. 


Continuity notes: Curt has one arm. He's teaching at a college. His identity as the Lizard is a secret. This most likely takes place well before the Spectacular Spider-Man vol 2 arc. 


----------- 
Story 3: 
A reprint of The Amazing Spider-Man #177. 

----------- 
Story 4: 
A reprint of The Amazing Spider-Man #347. 

----------- 
Story 5: 
Spider-Man J: "The Deadly Swarm Of Wasperus!" 
Original Story and Art by Yamanaka Akira 
Translation: Yuko Fukami 
English Adaptation: Marc Sumerak 

Non-canon. 

------------------------------------ 
Next time, a tale taking place in the old days, with Spidey vs the Fantastic Four, and a modern day Scorpion vs Scorpion story, plus reprints. 


SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
... 
ASM 252 
M/TU 141 
ASM 252 
**PPTSS 90 (moved. There's no gap between issues) 
PPTSS 91 (1 - 7) 
**M/TU 141 (moved to match Venom listing) 
PPTSS 91 (8 - 22) 
**ASM 253 (ditto) 
H2 300 
ASM 254 
PPTSS 92 
M/TU 142 
M/TU 143 
ASM 255 
M/TU@ 7 
**SMF2 1-FB 
**SMF2 1 
PPTSS 93 
... 
[any point after Venom vs Carnage 4] 
**SMF2 2 
[any point prior to MKSM 1] 
... 


VENOM [SYMBIOTE] 
**SMF2 1-FB 
PPTSS2 4-FB 
**VSS 1-FB 
M/SHSW 7-BTS 
... 
ASM 255-BTS 
**M/TU@ 7-BTS 
**SMF2 1-FB 
**SMF2 1 
PPTSS 93-BTS 
... 
PPTSS2 5 
[Venom vs Carnage] 
**SMF2 2 
[MKSM] 

MUGGINS, MAMIE 
... 
ASM 255 
**SMF2 1-FB 
PPTSS 93 
... 


SANDMAN/WILLIAM BAKER/"SYLVESTER MANN"/"FLINT MARKO" 
... 
M/TU 138 
**SMF2 1-FB 
**SMF2 1 
ASM 280 
... 


BLACK CAT/FELICIA HARDY 
ASM 195-FB 
BCAT 4-FB 
**SMF2 1/3 
{ASM 194} 
ASM 195 
... 
PPTSS 92 
**M/TU@ 7 (MOVED) 
**SMF2 1-FB 
PPTSS 93 
... 
PPTSS 96 
PPTSS 97 
(M/TU@ 7)-Remove 
PPTSS 98 
... 

TIGRA/GREER NELSON 
... 
CAT 4 
**SMF2 1/3 
M/TU 8-FB 
... 

BROCK, EDWARD "EDDIE" ALLAN CHARLES 
(added fully full name now, really) 
... 
Q 6 
**A:DV (is in Venom's listing but not his) 
ASM 330 
... 
PPTSS2 5 
[Venom vs Carnage-BTS] 
**SMF2 2 
[MKSM] 


WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 
... 
[any point after Venom vs Carnage 4] 
**SMF2 2 
[any point prior to MKSM 1] 
... 

URICH, BEN 
... 
**SMF2 2 
[any point prior to MKSM 1...uhh, or its equivalent] 
... 


LIZARD/DR. CURTIS CONNORS 
... 
PPTSS 239 
**SMF2 2/2 
SM:L 1 
...
Last edited by JLH on Fri May 25, 2007 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total. 

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Wed May 23, 2007 11:08 am 
By Somebody
Director

JLH wrote:
Placement for this isn't as hard as I'd thought. Pete and MJ are living in an apartment together. Here's the big thing, Pete makes a big deal about "maybe Brock is still himself in there, somewhere" and wants to see if he can get Eddie to "fight the symbiote". MJ mentions they're "permanently bonded". This places thing square after the Spectacular Spidey vol 2 arc where cancerous Eddie permabonded with the suit. Specifically, after the Venom vs Carnage mini where we had a "symbiote controlled Venom", and before Marvel Knights Spider-Man, where we had Eddie suddenly back to normal and getting rid of the suit.
I'm reading this completely differently - it looks to me more like this is intended to be not-that-long after ASM300. Not necessarily an out-and-out retroactive second appearance, but certainly in that sort of ballpark rather than post-Jenkins. 

Venom interacting with Spider-Man without picking a fight is "New" ("Where's the Vendetta?"). By recent long-post-ASM375 times, Peter's interacted with Venom lots of times without actually fighting him, including as a reluctant ally. 

The narration goes "Venom. I knew I'd see him again, most likely in the context of tearing my life apart for supposedly ruining his life [...] what's his life's purpose when he's not terrorising me and Mary Jane." Again, Peter's known Venom to have purposes other than a single-minded anti-Spider-Man campaign by recent times. 

"Permanently bonded" - in ASM300, the sonic gun doesn't work properly because the symbiote and Brock are "permanently bonded" [Of course, later stories ignored this, but, hey, so did Millar after that Spec v2 arc, when he had Brock sell off the symbiote in MKSM]. And MJ and Peter's reactions to Venom - *ESPECIALLY* MJ - really read more like Brock's initial traumatising of her wasn't so long back. And "the threat" the narration refers to, again, is more pre-ASM375. 

Venom's look is also in line with his early McFarlane appearance, rather than the later tongue-and-drool. Not definitive, but also indicative. 

There's also that the whole plot is geared around something that happened before Brock became Venom. Simple "why wait X years" thing there. 

And in the Spec v2 arc, Peter intentionally tricked the symbiote into bonding with Brock again. Doesn't exactly go with wanting to separate them. 

I ***REALLY*** don't see a recent (pre-MKSM) placement for this.

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Wed May 23, 2007 11:15 pm 
By JLH

Somebody wrote:
>>>
I'm reading this completely differently - it looks to me more like this is intended to be not-that-long after ASM300. Not necessarily an out-and-out retroactive second appearance, but certainly in that sort of ballpark rather than post-Jenkins.
<<<

If that was intended, they failed miserably. Above ALL subjective viewpoints, this is the biggest when reading that story: Venom isn't imprisoned at the start, and he isn't imprisoned at the end. Every other Venom appearance in the MCP accounts for his status quo before and after the story. This one doesn't, unless it takes place during recent years.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Venom interacting with Spider-Man without picking a fight is "New" ("Where's the Vendetta?"). By recent long-post-ASM375 times, Peter's interacted with Venom lots of times without actually fighting him, including as a reluctant ally.
<<<

No, from ASM 375 until about the end of Venom's series of mini-series, that was the case. When he "came back" in the second volumes of Amazing and PPSM, the situation of his being a Lethal Protector was long gone.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
The narration goes "Venom. I knew I'd see him again, most likely in the context of tearing my life apart for supposedly ruining his life [...] what's his life's purpose when he's not terrorising me and Mary Jane." Again, Peter's known Venom to have purposes other than a single-minded anti-Spider-Man campaign by recent times.
<<<

Peter's brought up the Mary Jane aspect many, many times whenever he runs into Venom. He's never forgiven him for the first real blow struck against him when their battles began. It always comes down to that original event, and is brought up repeatedly over the years. Peter ALWAYS thinks Venom is after him, except for the very few times when they've had arrangements. Post Jenkins, they had none.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
"Permanently bonded" - in ASM300, the sonic gun doesn't work properly because the symbiote and Brock are "permanently bonded" [Of course, later stories ignored this, but, hey, so did Millar after that Spec v2 arc, when he had Brock sell off the symbiote in MKSM]. And MJ and Peter's reactions to Venom - *ESPECIALLY* MJ - really read more like Brock's initial traumatising of her wasn't so long back. And "the threat" the narration refers to, again, is more pre-ASM375.
<<<

MJ never, ever was pleased to hear when Venom was back in town. It's brought back up just about every time Pete mentions him. The threat was readily revived once Venom regained his memory.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Venom's look is also in line with his early McFarlane appearance, rather than the later tongue-and-drool. Not definitive, but also indicative.
<<<

Every artist has their own Venom style. To try to rationalize it as being evolution to the suit is absurd. Otherwise, Venom wouldn't have gone from "mouth with legs" via Erik Larsen to "tough guy with fangs" ala Bagley, then back again.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
There's also that the whole plot is geared around something that happened before Brock became Venom. Simple "why wait X years" thing there.
<<<

He's dying of cancer in my placement. Getting back at those who wronged him in his life. In yours, he's been out of the reporting game for a relatively short period.

Venom brings up his wife in this story, right to Spidey's face. When Peter first heard of Ann, in ASM 375, he was stunned to learn of her. Her death seriously hit Eddie hard in ASM vol 2 #20, and Pete knows this. The story gets far weaker if Eddie's after these guys because they threatened his now-ex wife he doesn't miss, rather than his now dead wife he misses.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
And in the Spec v2 arc, Peter intentionally tricked the symbiote into bonding with Brock again. Doesn't exactly go with wanting to separate them.
<<<

He wasn't trying to separate them in this story. He was trying to get to Eddie to make him take control over the far more vicious and homicidal suit. From Amazing 300 onward until the Jenkins arc, Venom is a team between Eddie and the symbiote. Things changed for good after that. We've seen the suit in command, and here, we see Eddie in total control. Here, it starts out Peter automatically thinks the suit is in control, and we find out it isn't. 

You put it early in his career as Venom, you screw up other stories. You put it between the Jenkins run and the MKSM, you fix an error. Everything's subjective.

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Thu May 24, 2007 5:05 am 
By Somebody
Director

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0611/26/index.htm wrote:
>>>
McKeever is also writing the lead story in the first two issues of Marvel's bi-monthly Spider-Man Family title.

His first story is with a black-suited Spider-Man and involves Sandman. The second story will involve Venom and is set during the Todd McFarlane/Erik Larsen era.
<<<


Sean McKeever @ http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=106107 wrote:
>>>
Hi, everybody! It's your friendly neighborhood Marvel traitor!

Here's a page of Eddie Brock, the real Venom, from Spider-Man Family #2, in stores April 4th. The lead story is 22 pages and takes place between the McFarlane and Larsen Venom stuff.

http://seanmckeever.com/images/smf002p02.jpg
<<<

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Fri May 25, 2007 3:02 am 
By JLH

It's doesn't matter the intention of the writer, what matters, at the end of the day, is what works best for the big picture. If that happens to coincide with the writer's intent, then good for them, but if it doesn't, tough doodles. In this case, we're listening to the guy who's best known for writing "Mary Jane Loves Spider-Man", which doesn't exactly make him the bastion for Spidey continuity. 

Perhaps if he included a footnote like he had in the "Amazing Friends" SM Family special, we wouldn't be having this argument.

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Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:22 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Should that first page in SMF2 2 count as a story page or a recap page? Is this writing of Peter's in continuity or just a writer's device like the recap pages of Cable & Deadpool?

Paul B.

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Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:25 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I would call it a 'writer's device.' 

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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Thread 31

Subject: Ghost Rider Collector's Edition #1 (1993; Kay-Bee)

Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:19 am 
By JLH

Another Gap-era giveaway, with yet again nothing story-wise to do with the sponsor! 

------------------------------------ 
GHOST RIDER COLLECTOR'S EDITION #1 [1993] 
-Cover lists the book as "Marvel Collector's Edition: Ghost Rider, Hot Pursuit". 
-Cover has a blurb: "Presented by Kay-Bee Toy Stores", and, indeed, it was given away at said stores for free. 
-Ads for the giveaway of the book at local Kay-Bee stores appeared in Marvel comics as early as issue cover dated Dec 1993 (usually on the back of the Punisher Suicide Run Preview/ New Warriors Juice insert in such books as Amazing Spider-Man 384/X-Men 28). 

"Eye of the Beholder!" 
Writer: Chris Cooper 
Penciler: John Hebert 
Inker: Bill Anderson 

Cast: 
GHOST RIDER III/NOBLE KALE 
KETCH, DANIEL "DAN" 
CARETAKER 
CROWLEY, KIRSTEN 

Other characters: 
Ralfie and his thugs (one named Bobby) 
Nurse Tolliver 


Summary: One nice day in the Cypress Hills Cemetery, a sad funeral is interrupted by some armed thugs! They're robbing the grieving people, can you believe that?! Everything's going just peachy until the head criminal guy goes and spills some innocent blood by smacking the widow aside. Well, before ya know it, Ghost Rider's there, and he proceeds to give that guy a manhandling and a Penance Stare, to boot. So, Ghost Rider goes around pummeling the punks, which alerts the getaway driver, Kirsten Crowley. She speeds out of there in the van, only to have Ghost Rider follow on his motorcycle. The Spirit of Vengeance catches up and cuts her off, sending her careening off the side of a bridge! Ghost Rider grabs her hand as she falls out of the falling vehicle, and wraps his chain around her, but inexplicably, hellfire from his body shoots out from the connection, and scorches the right side of her body! The police and ambulance arrive, sending GR high-tailing it out of there. Once back at the cemetery, he reverts to Dan Ketch, who's aware of this apparent mistake. He encounters Caretaker, who nudges his self-loathing guilt over what happened to Kirsten enough to get Dan to finally head out to the hospital to see her. The next day, using his motorcycle messenger skills, he heads to St Jude's and drops off some flowers at Kirsten's room. On the way, he overhears some orderlies talking about how a blood test confirmed Kirsten is a mutant. Realizing it must've been her latent powers that reacted so badly to the hellfire, he gives the burn ward patient the flowers, and the half-skinless woman rejects their beauty. Nurse Tolliver, the understanding and overweight beacon of wisdom there, rushes in to clean it up and when they exit the room, the nurse explains how it's the emotional scars that'll take longest to heal. Kirsten, with some kind of robotic harness on her burns (save for her face, which is strange), rages about her stolen beauty and flares up her flame powers. Dan sneaks off and changes to Ghost Rider, and tries to stop Kirsten on her fiery rampage, with Nurse Tolliver as the hostage in danger. Holding back and still blaming himself, the Spirit of Vengeance gets taken down quickly by the mutant. But after considering it more, he realizes only she's to blame for choosing to become a criminal. He rushes Kirsten before she can attack anyone else or leave the hospital, and uses his Penance Stare on her. Forced to see just how ugly she is on the inside, and always has been, she collapses into a fetal position. Nurse Tolliver, though, reaches out to help her through it, offering a huge and support. Ghost Rider rides off, thinking that there may be a spirit greater than vengeance... such as the spirit of mercy! 


Continuity notes: Dan is aware of Caretaker, placing this after GR3 33, when he first met him. 

Dan turns to Ghost Rider without needing to be in reach of his motorcyle, which also became more common around this period. 


Goofs: During the rearview mirror shots of Ghost Rider catching up to Kirsten, the final one is a shrunk-down recycle of the cover. That'd be fine, if they didn't leave the big blurb for Kay-Bee still partially in it! 


------------------------------------ 

Just a reminder, my analysis of "Ghost Rider: Finale #94" has the updated and split versions of the Ghost Rider and Dan Ketch MCP style chronologies. 

GHOST RIDER III/NOBLE KALE 
... 
GR3 38 
**GR:CE 1 
SOV 8/2 
... 

KETCH, DANIEL "DAN" 
... 
GR3 38-BTS 
**GR:CE 1 
SOV 8/2 
... 

CARETAKER 
... 
GR3 36 
**GR:CE 1 
GR3 39 
... 

**CROWLEY, KIRSTEN 
GR:CE 1

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Thread 32

Subject: June call for analyses

Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:30 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Here's the latest call. Again, I took the liberty of adding names to new story arcs for ongoing titles. 

Completed stories (as of 5/31/07) 
Agents of Atlas #1-6 (Eric) 
Books of Doom #1-6 (Eric) 
Daughters of the Dragon #1-6 
Eternals v3 #1-7 (Eric) 
Franklin Richards: Son of a Genius Super Summer Spectacular 
Moon Knight v5 #1-6 (Joe) 
Nextwave: Agents of H.A.T.E. #1-12 (Chris) 
Reading to the Rescue #4 (JLH) 
Sentinel v2 #1-5 (JD) 
Thor: Son of Asgard #7-12 (John) 
Underworld #1-5 (Aaron) 
Wisdom #1-6 (Paul O.) 
X-23: Target X #1-6 (Paul O.) 


Future stuff 
Annihilation: Conquest  Quasar #1-4 (JLH) 
Annihilation: Conquest  Star-Lord #1-4 (JLH) 
Annihilation: Conquest  Wraith #1-4 (JLH) 
Annihilation: Conquest Prologue (JLH) 
Blade v3 #10 (JLH) 
Blade v3 #11-12 (JLH) 
Daredevil v2 #95-99 (Kevin) 
Daredevil: Battlin Jack Murdock #1-4 
Franklin Richards: World Be Warned #1 
Ghost Rider v5 #12-13 (JLH) 
Ghost Rider v5 #14-19 (JLH) 
Ghost Rider: Trail of Tears #1-6 (JLH) 
Immortal Iron Fist #1-6 (Don) 
Immortal Iron Fist #7 (Don) 
Immortal Iron Fist #8-? (Don) 
Legion of Monsters: Morbius (JLH) 
Legion of Monsters: Satana (JLH) 
Mystic Arcanna: Scarlet Witch 
Nova v4 #4-7 (JLH) 
Punisher v7 #43-49 (Col_Fury) 
Punisher v7 #50-54 (Col_Fury) 
Punisher Presents: Barracuda #1-5 (Col_Fury) 
Runaways v2 #25-30 (JD) 
Shanna the She-Devil: Survival of the Fittest #1-4 [canonical?] 
Silver Surfer: Requiem #1-4 [canonical?] (JLH) 
Spider-Man Family #3 (JLH) 
Spider-Man Family #4 (JLH) 
Spider-Man/Red Sonja #1-5 
Terror, Inc. v2 #1-5 
White Tiger #1-6 (Kevin) 
Wolverine v3 #50-55 (Col_Fury) 
Wolverine v3 #56 (Col_Fury) 
Wolverine: Origins #12-15 (Col_Fury) 
Wolverine: Origins #16-20 (Col_Fury) 
Wolverine: Origins Annual #1 (Col_Fury) 

Please let me know if I've made any errors on this list. 

Any help that people can provide would be greatly appreciated. As always, thanks to all who post on this forum!

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:14 pm, edited 3 times in total. 

Paul B.

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Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:37 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

>>>
Mystic Arcanna: Scarlet Witch 
<<<

That comes out in August. Before that, in July we have "Mystic Arcana: Black Knight" and in June we have "Mystic Arcana: Magik", both of which need added to your list.


>>>
White Tiger #1-6 (Kevin) 
<<<

Issue #6 still isn't out yet, so I'm waiting on that before doing an analysis.

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:19 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
Before that, in July we have "Mystic Arcana: Black Knight" and in June we have "Mystic Arcana: Magik", both of which need added to your list. 
<<<

Not if I decide to collect 'em. Right now, they're on my tentative list.

Paul B.

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Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:32 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

*gasp* But...you can't buy two issues of it and decide to ditch the rest!!  

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:55 pm 
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Annihilation Saga (JLH)
<<<

I analyzed what of it could be done in my final Annihilation thread.


>>>
Legion of Monsters: Morbius (JLH)
<<<

This is running late, and hasn't come out.


>>>
Reading to the Rescue #4
<<<

I'm doing enough of the promotional/giveaway/sendaway/throwaway books lately, aren't I? I might as well do this one, too.

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Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:12 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Just a few notes.. 

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Nova v4 #4-? (JLH)
<<<

That would be #4-7 for the Conquest tie-in arc, to match the four-issue minis.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Shanna the She-Devil: Survival of the Fittest #1-4
<<<

That should, at least, get the same "[canonical?]" note as Requiem, surely? It's a sequel to the Frank Cho mini, by the writers & artist who did Daughters of the Dragon.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Wisdom #1-6 (Paul O.)
<<<

Should be on the "completed" list.

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Thread 33

Subject: X-Men: First Class Special 1

Sat May 26, 2007 9:59 pm 
By metaldragon

Just got this on Wed and thought I'd try an analysis. 

X-Men: First Class Special 1 

The Museum of Oddities 
Beast 
Iceman 
Mr. Vayle (curator of the Museum of Oddities) 
Alistair (a mutant who looks like a gargoyle and can stand extremely still) 

Beast mentions Cerebro (post-UX 12) and reminds Iceman that Professor X sent them to investigate a possible class one mutant (so in any story break between UX 12 - 32, UX 39 - 41, or even UX 65 - AA2 11-FB). Most likely in the between UX 21 & 22 gap where most of X:FC seems to fit. 


The Key 
Magneto 
Zelda 
various Coffee-a-Go-Go patrons 

This is just a fun, 5 panel comic strip. Magnetos dialogue implies that he can somehow convince the X-Men to join the Brotherhood, which could mean sometime before UX 4, but that would place this before Beast decides to out himself as a mutant by showing off his feet and leaping skills at the Coffee-a-Go-Go in UX 7. Since Magneto says that hes heard the X-Men hang out at the Cafe, Magneto must have a plan to somehow forcibly recruit them either soon after arriving back on Earth after escaping the Strangers planet in UX 18-FB and before searching for Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch or after failing to get the siblings to reform the Brotherhood between M/H&L 97 & UX 17 (but probably before. Read on...) 
For Zelda this would probably be after Bobby flirts with her in UX 7 and probably before he tries to ask her out in UX 14. She says on the phone to a friend: Yea, I think the college guy is into me. Gives me chills sometimes, though. That sounds like before UX 14 to me. 


The Soul of a Poet 
Angel 
Beast 
Cyclops 
Iceman 
Marvel Girl 
Professor X (possibly Changeling?) 
Zelda 
Bernard the Poet 
various Coffee-a-Go-Go patrons 

Professor X makes this Bernards last spoken word performance (ever?) so must be after M/HOL 1994-FB (which takes place betwen UX 48 & 49). Since Professor X was believed dead between UX 42-65, Warren and Hank tease Bobby about liking Zelda, and Lorna is not mentioned: this is a tricky placement. The only spot it could possibly fit is sometime after Lorna goes on her road trip to New Mexico to ask Havok to return to the X-Men after H2 150-FB and before Hank leaves the X-Men in AA2 11-FB to work for the Brand Corporation. Its possible Zelda is still mad at Bobby for turning up again after he mentioned Lorna in X:HY 2 which is why shes takes Warrens cell phone during Bernards performance. Awkward, but it could work. 

Alternatively its possible Beast and Iceman mis-remember things in the M/HOL 1994-FB and Bernard the poet wasnt actually there that afternoon, which opens up the possiblity of a pre-death of Professor X/debut of Lorna complication placement. Or, if Bernard was really there, maybe his neo-mutant power is only activated by the presence of a mutant with psi abilities (Jean), so if he was persuaded to make a return live performance in M/HOL 1994-FB, Hank and Bobby would not set off his power. His last previous appearance was UX 32 so this story could go sometime between UX 39 & 41 after Professor X unlocks Jeans telepathic abilities. Hey, that actually makes a logical kind of sense! Ooo, if this is between UX 40 & 41 that could also mean that this might be an early appearance by the Changeling as Professor X! That would be cool... 


Men Fear the Blob 
Blob 
the mayor? of a wholesome small town 
Officer Terri 
other police officers 

This is just a fun, seven pannel comics strip. Blob first appears in this costume in UX 141. Previous to that issue he usually just wore a pair of shorts. Its possible this could take place between UX 140 & 141 when he escapes from prison and joins Mystiques new Brotherhood of (Evil) Mutants (which would make this story the debut of the costume he wears in UX 141) or later at some point. Anyone who knows the 80s X-Men era have an idea? 

If this is actually meant to fit in his chronology during the First Class era, this could be explained as a one-off outfit he decided to wear regularily later. That opens it up to anytime between UX 7 & DEF 15 really. It could go shortly after UX 20-21 where Lucifer recruits him and Unus to frame the X-Men by robbing a bank in X-Men costumes. Maybe that incident gave him a taste for bank robbery. Up until then, he seemed fairly content as a carny. 


A Girl and Her Dragon 
1st and last page: 
Cyclops 
Sprite 
Lougheed 

Middle section is a flashback to the original team: 
Angel 
Beast 
Cyclops 
Iceman 
Marvel Girl 
Professor X 
Dragon Man 
Juggernaut 
Blob 
A Sentinel (well, just its head really) 
a train full of people 

The framing sequence with Scott, Kitty and Lougheed could take place between the 2nd to last and last pages of UX 168. I dont know this era of X-Men very well so maybe someone else has a better spot for it sometime later? In between is the story Scott tells Kitty about Jeans pet dragon. 

I have no idea where the middle section flashback story with the original team fits in Dragon Mans chronology. Maybe an FF expert could tell us. Did Dragon Man end up on Monster Island at one point back then? Placement of this story would depend on him really. It would have to occur after UX 18 because of the appearance of (the head of) a Sentinel. The bit where Dragon Man is shown attacking Juggernaut & Blob might be a problem. Unless Juggernaut woke up and escaped their basement at one point between UX 13 & UX 32 and teamed up with the Blob, Im not sure how/where(if?) this story could fit. (In that awkward "after Lorna goes on her road trip to New Mexico to ask Havok to return to the X-Men after H2 150-FB and before Hank leaves the X-Men in AA2 11-FB to work for the Brand Corporation" spot? Ouch.) 


The Mental Might of Marvel Girl 
Marvel Girl 
Professor X 
Angel 
Beast 
Cyclops 
Iceman 
Cerebro 
various people in boats and cars 
a duck and 4 ducklings 
an otter 

A cute, one page comic about Professor X sending Marvel Girl out to study why ducklings are 40% more lovable than any other species so mutants could study their traits and maybe become more acceptable to regular humans. This could fit in any of the post-UX 12 gaps where Xavier is around. Most likely in the between UX 21 & 22 gap where most of X:FC seems to fit.

Last edited by metaldragon on Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

"May the Light shine forever!"

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Sun May 27, 2007 4:44 am 
By Somebody
Director

The one page strips are about as canon as Bullpen Bits, I'd say. 

The framing sequence on the last story is present day (well, roughly so - any downtime gap between AXM2 and now will do) - that's the post-ReLoad mansion. Kitty & Lockheed jump out below "A" in the picture below, with the left (to look at the pic) "6" wing in the background. The final scene is at the front door, with the Phoenix Memorial (5) and the edge of the gate (B) visible behind Scott & Kitty in the shot of Kitty's back. 

 

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Professor X makes this Bernards last spoken word performance (ever?) so must be after M/HOL 1994-FB (which takes place betwen UX 48 & 49). Since Professor X was believed dead between UX 42-65, Warren and Hank tease Bobby about liking Zelda, and Lorna is not mentioned: this is a tricky placement. The only spot it could possibly fit is sometime after Lorna goes on her road trip to New Mexico to ask Havok to return to the X-Men after H2 150-FB and before Hank leaves the X-Men in AA2 11-FB to work for the Brand Corporation. Its possible Zelda is still mad at Bobby for turning up again after he mentioned Lorna in X:HY 2 which is why shes takes Warrens cell phone during Bernards performance. Awkward, but it could work.

Alternatively its possible Beast and Iceman mis-remember things in the M/HOL 1994-FB and Bernard the poet wasnt actually there that afternoon, which opens up the possiblity of a pre-death of Professor X/debut of Lorna complication placement. Or, if Bernard was really there, maybe his neo-mutant power is only activated by the presence of a mutant with psi abilities (Jean), so if he was persuaded to make a return live performance in M/HOL 1994-FB, Hank and Bobby would not set off his power. His last previous appearance was UX 32 so this story could go sometime between UX 39 & 41 after Professor X unlocks Jeans telepathic abilities. Hey, that actually makes a logical kind of sense! Ooo, if this is between UX 40 & 41 that could also mean that this might be an early appearance by the Changeling as Professor X! That would be cool...
<<<

I'm wondering why the Metoxo story can't be moved in light of new evidence - the only reason it's placed where it is is on the basis of a "next issue" caption for a story which never saw print, while the Marvel Holiday Special story is an entirely new (in 1994 ) concoction by Kurt Busiek and James Fry, neither of whom was working in comics in the 1960s, and which just reuses the name of the villain in the unwritten story.

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Sun May 27, 2007 12:35 pm 
By metaldragon

Where would you propose to move the Metoxo story? The earliest spot possible would be between UX 39 & 40 because of Beast's costume. The last spot would be before AA2 11-FB. The between UX 39 & 40 spot fixes the Lorna & Professor X problem but the calendar people would say that isn't any where near where Christmas falls in the Marvel time-line. If you place it post-X-Men Hidden Years 22, there is still the Bobby-Lorna-Alex love triangle problem awkwardness. If you ignore the costume, it could go around the return of Mimic UX 27-29 Christmas but that is a bit of a stretch. The story was "meant" to be the long lost Metoxo story mentioned at the end of UX 48. That was kinda the "point" of it, one for the fans. 

I think my last point was the most elegant solution to this problem. Without a psi mutant around, his powers don't activate.

"May the Light shine forever!"

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Sun May 27, 2007 2:00 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Somebody wrote:
>>>
...by Kurt Busiek and James Fry, neither of whom was working in comics in the 1960s...
<<<

I must admit, I'm struggling to see the relevance of that part of your argument. Kurt Busiek's absence in the 1960's hardly prohibited us from placing Untold Tales of Spider-Man, or Mavels, where we have. In fact, one could argue, in light of these other stories, along with Thor: Godstorm, and who knows how many others, that Busiek's name in the credits is soft evidence that it's intended to be placed in the Silver Age. 


watching: x-men 3

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Sun May 27, 2007 2:42 pm 
By Somebody
Director

That was tangential - obviously I wasn't saying it wasn't SET during the Silver Age, I was saying it wasn't CREATED during the Silver Age - i.e., the "60s" section with Beast in red'n'blue, etc, wasn't the story originally set to run in UX49. They just picked up on the name, and there's no evidence therefore in the story that requires the story to be between UX48 and 49 - where it is only place because of that "Next Issue" caption in UX48! The placement treats it as the "lost" UX issue.

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Thu May 31, 2007 6:11 am 
By metaldragon

metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
I have no idea where the middle section flashback story with the original team fits in Dragon Mans chronology. 
<<<

Dragon Man is probably here between FF 47 and A 41. 

I would suppose Blob is here either just before or just after UX 20, and I guess the Juggernaut would have to be here sometime during his period of incarceration at Xavier's between UX 13 and 32. Juggy is in the Crimson Cosmos between UX 34 and 46.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:33 am 
By Paul O'Brien
Director

It might be argued that this isn't the same Bernard the Poet, since he looks completely different, and the original Bernard never had a noticeable tendency to spark hallucinations. It could just be a different guy, also called Bernard.

-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:59 am 
By metaldragon

Hmm... I just thought his powers kicked in for the first time. He does look a lot younger than the original Bernard the Poet but I just thought that was part of the whole "updating" the look of the series to appeal to "today's youth"/new readers and was actually the same person. 

If this is a different Bernard the Poet, the tone of Warren & Hank's teasing Bobby about liking Zelda could place this before Bobby's first date with her in UX 19 (the between UX 18 & 19 "months" gap. Again! Am I seeing a bit of a trend here...? *nudges Paul B*)

Last edited by metaldragon on Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:42 am 
By metaldragon

I just remembered something... when Magneto lifted the X-Mansion off it's foundation in UX 18, it probably interfered with the equipment keeping Juggernaut in stasis in the basement. Juggernaut could have snuck out of the mansion BTS shortly after UX 18 while the X-Men were away (during X:FC 2 [my placement]). Professor X mentions Cerebro is getting "erratic" readings on Dragon Man but it isn't actually shown "onscreen" so this could be the damaged but still functioning Cerebro of UX 19 and doesn't HAVE to be the "new Cerebro" post-UX 20-21. I don't imagine Professor X would allow Juggernaut to run around loose for long if he escaped so I suggest placing this story between X:FC 3 (malfunctioning Cerebro) & UX 19.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Subject: CFA: GR4

Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:23 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm looking for an analysis of the 6-issue limited series from 2001, since I don't have these books. 

Here's the series I'm talking about. 


watching: dog

			*	*	*

Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:03 pm 
By JLH

It's already in the MCP under the listing of GR:HL 1 through 6.

			*	*	*

Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:16 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

What was I thinking when I called that Hammer Lane? Grrrrrr. That needs to be changed to GR4. Thanks. 


watching: lost

			*	*	*

Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:28 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Well, it was solicited as Ghost Rider: The Hammer Lane. 

Presumably, like the Excalibur: Sword of Power mini from around the same time, the subtitle fell off when they put the logo together...

			*	*	*

Thread 35

Subject: Sgt. Fury and his Howling Annuals 4-7!

Sgt. Fury @4 
Published: August, 1968 

The majority of the first story is a Flashback set during the Battle of the Bulge, but there is a current day bookend sequence. 

Appearances: 
Col. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Gabe Jones, Dino Manelli, Reb Ralston, Izzy Cohen, Pinky Pinkerton, Eric Koenig, Carla. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: Christmas, 1967 
The Howling Commandos reunite for a holiday get-together, and Fury tells Izzys children about a Christmas they had in 1944 
Pg45-pg47 
The kids have fallen asleep, so theyre taken off to bed. Nick spends a moment thinking of what may have been if Pam Hawley had survived the War, then thanks Izzys wife for coming to a Christmas party, even though theyre Jewish. 

References: 
Carla was last seen in Sgt. Fury 56, making this her only other appearance. 

A reference is made to Sgt. Fury@ 3 as already happening, making this a current day story. 

Sgt. Fury @4/2 

Gary & Dick take the readers through a tour of the cast, who all yell at the creators for constantly destroying Dum Dums hats, never giving Fury a promotion, etc. Near the end, John Severin comes out of his cave and kicks Garys & Dicks asses. Why? Because hes John Severin and thats what he does: Kicks Ass. 

Sgt. Fury @5 

Almost all reprint material, but there is a recap bit in the middle introducing some cast members of the Howling Commandos book, and a pictorial of guns, planes, and tanks called Weapons of War. Its narrated by Sgt. Fury talking to the readers, similar to the Cable/Deadpool recap pages. 

Sgt. Fury @6 
Published: August, 1970 

Appearances: 
Col. Nick Fury, Stan Lee, Roy Thomas, Dick Ayers, John Severin, Gary Friederich 

Synopsis: 
Stan cant figure out what to do for this years Sgt. Fury Annual, so he calls Nick up to see if he could meet with himself, Roy, Dick, John, & Gary to come up with something. They all meet at the Marvel offices and ask Nick what his favorite adventures as shown in the Sgt. Fury book were, so they could reprint them in this years Annual which they do. Afterwards, Fury takes everyone to the movies to catch a showing of Patton. 

References: 
Nick is with SHIELD in the story, so its current day. What were Furys favorite issues? 18 & 19 

Sgt. Fury @7 

Entirely reprints, nothing new at all. 

Some placement suggestions! 

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
 
NFAOS 3 (17 - 20) 
*SGTF@ 4 
NFAOS 5 (1 -20:4) 
 
CA 132 
*SGTF@ 6 
SS 16 
 

DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM" 
 
NFAOS 2 
*SGTF@ 4 
NFAOS 5 
 

JONES, GABRIEL "GABE" 
 
IM 1 
*SGTF@ 4 
NFAOS 7 
 

MANELLI, DINO 
 
SGTF@ 3 
*SGTF@ 4 
CA 273 
 

RALSTON, ROBERT "REB" 
 
SGTF@ 3 
*SGTF@ 4 
CA 273 
 

COHEN, ISADORE "IZZY" 
 
SGTF@ 3 
*SGTF@ 4 
CA 273 
 

PINKERTON, PERCIVAL "PINKY" 
 
SGTF@ 3 
*SGTF@ 4 
CA 273 
 

KOENIG, ERIC 
 
SGTF@ 3 
*SGTF@ 4 
CA 145 
 

LEE, STAN/STANLEY LIEBER 
 
SUB-M 19 
*SGTF@ 6 
DD 79 
SGTF 100 
 

THOMAS, ROY 
Hey, its already in his! 

AYERS, DICK 
SGTF 22 
*SGTF@ 6 
SGTF 100 

SEVERIN, JOHN 
*SGTF@ 6 

FRIEDRICH, GARY 
*SGTF@ 6 

SGTF 100"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 36

Subject: Marvel Collector's Edition: X-Men #1 (1993; Stri-Dex)

Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:59 am 
By JLH

Can Magneto be defeated by the temptation of delicious little moist white wafers? What? You're not supposed to eat them?! No wonder he didn't not almost did but hadn't became Xorn! 

------------------------------------ 
MARVEL COLLECTOR'S EDITION: X-MEN Vol 1 #1 [1993] 
-Cover lists the book as "Marvel Collector's Edition: X-Men" #1. 
-Indicia lists it as "Marvel Collector's Edition vol 1 #1", despite the fact there's already been a book with that volume and number. 
-Blurb on the cover says, "A Special Collector's Edition Comic! Brought To You By The Makers Of STRI-DEX". 
-Ads for the sendaway first appeared in Marvel comics as early as issues cover dated July 1993. 
-Said ads called the book: "X-Men Custom Comic", "X-Men Collector's Comic", and "Marvel Custom Comic". 

"Differences!" 
Writer: Danny Fingeroth 
Penciler: Scott McDaniel 
Inker: Stephen Baskerville 

Cast: 
DEE, JOHN 
PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER 
STORM/ORORO MUNROE 
CYCLOPS II/SCOTT SUMMERS 
COLOSSUS III/PETER RASPUTIN 
SHADOWCAT/KATHERINE "KITTY" PRYDE 
NIGHTCRAWLER/KURT WAGNER 
MAGNETO/MAGNUS/"ERIC LENSHERR" 
PYRO/ALLERDYCE "JOHNNY" ST. JOHN 
AVALANCHE/DOMINIC PETROS 
JUGGERNAUT/CAIN MARKO 
WHITE QUEEN/EMMA FROST 
BLOB/FRED J. DUKES 

Other characters: 
Lucy 
Barton 
Elizabeth 
Albert 
Diane 
Joe 


Summary: One fine afternoon in a high school in New York, a young teen named John Dee manifests his mutant powers. What's his powers? Beats me, but it involvrs green lights shooting out of his arms and head. And whatever it is, it's enough to get the attention of Cerebro-using Professor Xavier up in the X-Mansion. He quickly assembles his X-Men to go to the boy before his enemy, Magneto, and his Brotherhood of Evil Mutants can do so. Speak of the devil, up on Asteroid M, it looks like Magneto's having some sort of "Charles Xavier Hatred Club Of America" meeting. Well, somehow he detects John's "awakening" and rallies his fellow villains to get him. Down in the school, some of the fellow students who saw John's power outburst don't react very well, displaying the typical anti-mutant attitudes and threatening the boy. Some of John's more understanding pals choose instead to stop the bullies from harming him. But, what do ya know, Magneto and Company smash through the wall all of a sudden. Yes, they came from OUTER SPACE all in a little magnetic bubble and they got there quicker than the guys who live in the SAME STATE. Anyway, Magneto energy-smacks around the bullies and tries to urge John to join his side in using his powers to rule mankind (with White Queen ready to telepathically compel him if he refuses). The X-Men finally arrive, Pyro blasts Colossus away, Xavier has a battle of the minds with White QUeen, and all hell breaks loose. Nightcrawler bamf-punches Magneto, Blob benchpresses Colossus, Storm strafes Pyro, Cyclops eyebeamblasts Juggernaut, and Avalanche shakes it up with Shadowcat. Meanwhile, John's friends are getting fellow students out of the line of fire. And John? Well, he starts unleashing his powers again, creating more problems. Cyclops shoves a kid out of the way and is hit by a stray beam from John. Alright, so, John's friends rally together around the boy, reminding him he has friends and has the choice to take responsibility for his powers. They do what the X-Men and the Brotherhood can't, namely, calm John Dee down until he powers down. They then all hug and promise to get through this together. Yeah, and by next grade, they'll have all forgotten one another. Ahem. So, Magneto and Cyclops are about to fight, only to get yelled at by John's friends (which is a raw deal for Scott, since he was just reacting to Magneto's agression. Let 'em attack the kids, the ungrateful little...). They talk about how, whichever side John chooses, it's up to him and only him. John asserts about how he doesn't know who he is yet, but he does know he's not an evil mutant. Magneto vows that, with such a harsh world, one day he'll beg for his help. Xavier offers to aid John in using his powers to clean up some of the debris, Blob goes to grab baldy, and it's Magneto of all people who protects him. Maybe all that talk of friendship got to him. Whatever the case, he scoops up his Brotherhood and departs, promising the boy will be their's one day. John vows he won't, just like he didn't join the gang on his block (stereotypes, ho!). He turns down Xavier, since his friends and family are here. Despite concerns from Cyclops, the Professor is certain with the friends John has, all the difference in making a better world is there for him. And the final shot implies John'll be used for entertainment purposes until the novelty of "green glow guy" wears off. 

And then there's a pin-up with art by McDaniel that looks more like the Miller-esque style he became known for later (though, what's with Magneto's little metal helmet horn things all huge and devil-like?!) 



Continuity notes: Whoo, boy. Where to begin? 
1) The story must be before Uncanny X-Men #304 (since Colossus is on the X-Men) and X-Men #25 (since Magneto gets brain-fried there). 
2) Must be before Uncanny X-Men 281 (since White Queen gets brain-fried there). 
3) Must be after the adoption of the Jim Lee era costumes. 
4) Juggernaut is not floating around between dimensions, meaning this is after X-Force 2, but before X-Force 5, where Blob & Pyro are part of the new Brotherhood. 
5) Asteroid M is active and operational. Magneto is in full costume. No Acolytes (visible, at least). 

Shadowcat and Nightcrawler being "on" the team isn't too much an issue. They obviously were visiting the X-Mansion for whatever reason and were just helping out in the battle. Probably between XCAL 41 and 42. 

Here's something entirely useless to know: the Zit Fighters from Outer Space!, as featured on all the ads in this issue and in ads in comics all throughout this year? Were owned by Marvel, according to the fine print. I wonder why they didn't just give them their own comic? 



Goofs: The hell is Juggernaut doing hanging out with a bunch of stinkin' muties? 


------------------------------------ 

God help me, are all the First Class discussions getting to me, and I can ACTUALLY find a place to fit this thing into continuity?! 


**DEE, JOHN 
M/CE:XM 1 


PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER 
... 
XF 71 
**M/CE:XM 1 
X 1 
... 

STORM/ORORO MUNROE 
... 
DLOK2 5 
**M/CE:XM 1 
X 1 
... 

CYCLOPS II/SCOTT SUMMERS 
... 
DAMCON3 4 
**M/CE:XM 1 
X 1 
... 

COLOSSUS III/PETER RASPUTIN 
... 
XF 70 
**M/CE:XM 1 
X 1 
... 

SHADOWCAT/KATHERINE "KITTY" PRYDE 
... 
XCAL:AA 
**M/CE:XM 1 
M/CP 174/4 
... 

NIGHTCRAWLER/KURT WAGNER 
... 
XCAL:AA 
**M/CE:XM 1 
XCAL 42 
... 

MAGNETO/MAGNUS/"ERIC LENSHERR" 
... 
UX 275 
**M/CE:XM 1 
X 1 
... 

PYRO/ALLERDYCE "JOHNNY" ST. JOHN 
... 
XF@ 6/2 
**M/CE:XM 1 
XFOR 6 
... 

AVALANCHE/DOMINIC PETROS 
... 
XF@ 6/2 
**M/CE:XM 1 
X@ 2 
... 

JUGGERNAUT/CAIN MARKO 
... 
XFOR 2 
**M/CE:XM 1 
XFOR 3 
... 

WHITE QUEEN/EMMA FROST 
... 
NW@ 1/5 
**M/CE:XM 1 
UX 281 
... 

BLOB/FRED J. DUKES 
... 
XF@ 6/2 
**M/CE:XM 1 
XFOR 5 
...

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:49 am 
By jephyork
Director

I read this issue a while back, and thought it said that the White Queen, Juggernaut and Pyro were all members of Magneto's Brotherhood -- making it pretty much straight-up non-canon. Am I wrong? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:52 pm 
By Dhall

I read this issue a while back, and thought it said that the White Queen, Juggernaut and Pyro were all members of Magneto's Brotherhood -- making it pretty much straight-up non-canon. Am I wrong? 

I'm inclined to agree with you, but X:FC has at least two worse errors (Cerebro and Mastermind) , and lots of people think that's canon, so why shouldn't this be? 

Is there no possible explanation for why White Queen, Juggernaut and Pyro would join up with Magneto?

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:59 pm 
By jephyork
Director

You need to stop with this constant XFC thing. We get it, you're pissed. But your definition of "worse errors" is kind of subjective here, and you KNOW that we hold giveaway books to an even higher standard than regular books. (Hell, I don't think we've ever even put one in the MCP yet.) 

I'm asking for clarification on a point -- I've only read the book once, and that was some time ago. Can you provide any info about the issue? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:31 pm 
By JLH

jephyork wrote:
>>>
I read this issue a while back, and thought it said that the White Queen, Juggernaut and Pyro were all members of Magneto's Brotherhood -- making it pretty much straight-up non-canon. Am I wrong?
<<<

Xavier wants to get to John before Magneto and his "Brotherhood of Evil Mutants" do. Asteroid M is said to be the orbiting headquarters of the Brotherhood. 

They don't actually call the specific assembled team in this book the Brotherhood. For all we know, they mean Blob, Pyro, and Avalanche and the others are merely tagging along for whatever reason. 

Yeah, yeah, "lack of evidence isn't evidence" or whatever. I'm just the analysiser... analyizerer... the guy calling it like I see it.

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:35 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I guess I'm mostly thrown because, while Magneto has led A VERSION of the Brotherhood, exactly ZERO of the villains here have ever been in it. Blob, Pyro and Avalanche were members of Mystique's Brotherhood, but that's it -- it seems odd to say "Magneto and HIS Brotherhood", when these characters AREN'T his Brotherhood. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:24 pm 
By Dhall

Jeph, the ONLY giveaway book that I can think of that's made it's way into the project is Spider-Man, Storm & Power Man, the 1982 Anti-Smoking giveaway. I'm not really sure why that one is the MCP, but it is.

			*	*	*

Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:38 pm 
By JLH

So, you're saying I'm wasting my time doing analyses for the givea/sendaways? That's there's absolutely no chance whatsoever that any of them will ever be added? No chance for consideration on a case by case basis, just a blanket rejection, right off the bat? 

That should be in the FAQ, then.

			*	*	*

Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:30 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
...and you KNOW that we hold giveaway books to an even higher standard than regular books. (Hell, I don't think we've ever even put one in the MCP yet.)
<<<

Dhall wrote:
>>>
...giveaway book that I can think of that's made it's way into the project is Spider-Man, Storm & Power Man, the 1982 Anti-Smoking giveaway. 
<<<

I wouldn't say you're wasting your time, at least one's already in! 

Last edited by Col_Fury on Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:34 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

JLH wrote:
>>>
So, you're saying I'm wasting my time doing analyses for the givea/sendaways? That's there's absolutely no chance whatsoever that any of them will ever be added? No chance for consideration on a case by case basis, just a blanket rejection, right off the bat?
<<<

Oz wrote:
>>>
I would call that a radical interpretation of the facts.
<<<

Are you talking to Dave? I would interpret him as saying the exact opposite of that. He has provided proof that there absolutely is a chance that they'll be added, that there is a chance on a case by case basis, that we don't offer blanket rejections, right off the bat, of giveaways. 


watching: family feud

			*	*	*

Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:03 pm 
By Dhall

Right, I was wondering why that particular one had been added, and not others. (And now that I've re-read it, it's probably because though it's very PSA, there's nothing it that can't be in continuity.) 

I know we've discussed this before, and I believe the rule is that we look at them on a case by case basis, and if there's nothing that's obviously non-canon we add them. Unless I'm mis-remembering, that is. It's been a while. 

Anyway, we need a write up, so the book can either be added, or sent to the non-canon list.

			*	*	*

Wed Jun 06, 2007 1:26 am 
By JLH

Yeah... thanks for clarifying, people. Sorry, I got a little wispy from the fumes from all those Stri-dex pads.

			*	*	*

Thread 37

Subject: Century: Distant Sons one-shot

Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:39 am 
By John Simons

Century: Distant Sons (February, 1996) 
Writers: Dan Abnett, Andy Lanning 
Artists: J. Calafiore, P.L. Palmiotti 

Synopsis: 
This one-shot opens with Century having a nightmare which may be based in fact. The people of a devastated planet are overcome by an attacking force called the Scatter. A young boy named Comus is hidden by his mother, and watches helplessly as the Scatter are led by none other than Century himself! He awakens screaming. 
Century is on board the starship of the Broker, who is imprisoned in the brig. The Brokers former slave-crew refers to Century as the Deliverer because he has freed them from possession by the Brokers brain stem parasites and is helping them all get back to their homeworlds. This goal is hampered by the fact that the Brokers navigational data is locked up and he refuses to reveal his security codes. One crewman called Skewer breaks one of the codes, only to learn that his own homeworld no longer exists. 

Another crewman, Slug, is compelled to continue to do the Brokers bidding because of nanite servitors implanted inside him. He frees all of the brain stem parasites, which take back control of the crew, who then free the Broker. The crews gangs up on and defeats Century, who also has a parasite impanted on the back of his neck. 

The Broker brings Century to a dead world called Memoriam, which he explains was formerly the moon of Centurys now-destroyed homeworld. He further describes a destructive being called Lore who traveled from world to world laying waste to them, and the Scatter, who would show up on worlds Lore had been to in order to loot and plunder while their defenses were shattered. Centurys people, the Hodomur, created him as a fighting machine capable of tracking Lore throughout space in order to destroy her, but the Broker captured him the first time, erased his memory, and sold him to the Scatter. His tracking power led the Scatter to worlds damaged by Lore which they could plunder, including Skewers homeworld. 

The Broker sells Century to Imogen a mystery woman whom Century recognizes vaguely back cant remember. She compels Century to teleport herself, her aide Nohm and two Warclone guards to an alternate dimension in search of a powerful artifact called the Crucible. A bizarre city in this dimension is ruled by Azimuth, Imogens sister, whom Century also vaguely recognizes. Azimuth removes the parasite from Centurys neck, returning to him his independence. 

The Broker orders his starship to follow the others into the alternate dimension, and he arrives in the city just as Imogen blasts Azimuth and takes possession of the Cruicible. Before the Broker can steal the artifcact, Slug sacrifices his own life to destroy the Brokers control link to the parasites, freeing the crew. The Broker is able to blast most of the attacking crew before Century beheads him. 

Imogen has fled with the Cruicible and Azimuth, her mind shattered, is left to her people. Nohm and Warclone Thirty join the starship crew, which return to normal space. Century finds that the answers he was searching for have left him feeling more empty, and longs to return to his new home, Earth. 

Characters appearing: 
Azimuth 
The Broker 
Century 
Esh-Uta 
Imogen 
Kerth 
Kiwi 
Kkkt 
Nohm 
Onyx 
Plisken 
Skarla 
Skewer 
Slug 
Warclone Sixteen 
Warclone Thirty 

Obviously this one-shot begins a lot more plotlines than it ends. I dont think any of this stuff about the Cruicible or Centurys past were ever brought up again. In fact, I dont think Century has turned up again after Force Works was cancelled, unless he was shoehorned into one of these recent Annihilation series. 

For many of these characters, this is their only appearance to date. The few who have appeared elsewhere are listed below. 

BROKER 
FW 15 
FW 16 
**C: DS 

CENTURY 
 
FW 16 
**C: DS 
FW 19 
 

KERTH 
**FW 15 
**C: DS 

KIWI 
**FW 15 
**C: DS 

ONYX 
**FW 15 
**C: DS 

SKEWER 
FW 15 
FW 16 
**C: DS 

SLUG 
**FW 15 
**C: DS

"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Thread 38

Subject: Exiles 84-94, @ 1

Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:10 pm 
By Dhall

Exiles 84 

Proteus/Morph 
Power Princess 
Longshot 
Heather Hudson 
Blink 
Spider-Man 2099 
Sabretooth 

AOA: 
Magneto 
Rogue 

Timebreakers 
Timebroker 

Alpha Flight Earth-3470 
Gabe O Hara (Miguels brother) 
Soviet Super Soldiers of Earth 3470 

Half of the team goes on vacation; meanwhile Zarda catches Proteus/Morph spying on her in the bath (while disguised as Longshot) and cuts him. Heather breaks it up, and then goes on vacation herself to see her husband. Blink is still visiting Mimics homeworld, Earth #12. Professor X asks her to stay on, and join the X-Men. ON Earth #928, Spider-Man visits his brother. On Earth #295 (AOA Earth) Sabretooth inquires about Wild Child, who has disappeared. On Earth #3470, Heather spends time with her husband, James. The Tallus alerts Sabretooth to an emergency, and the bugs send him to Heathers world, appearing in her bedroom. They quickly summon both teams, the Exiles and Alpha Flight to meet the emergency. The Soviet super soldiers are trying to summon a dark light demon, Chernobog, which if left unchecked will cover the Earths surface in dark light. The Timebreakers convince first Proteus/Morph and then Longshot that they are needed in the battle, leaving no one in the Panoptichron. The teams are able to stop the Super Soldiers. Sabretooth contacts the Timebreakers using the Tallus, but it disappears. The Timebroker appears to let the Exiles know that they have been fired, and that the bugs are going to replace them. The Exiles are now trapped on Heathers world. 


Exiles 85 

Various Wolverines 
Timebroker 
Timebreakers 

Brother Mutant (also in fb) 
James McDonald Hudson  Earth 3470 

Exiles: 
Proteus/Morph 
Power Princess 
Longshot 
Heather Hudson 
Blink 
Spider-Man 2099 
Sabretooth 


Summary: The Exiles have been fired, and replaced by a team of all Wolverines. They take on all the other all-Wolverine teams that have already failed to complete the mission of taking out Brother Mutant. 
Meanwhile, back on Earth-3470, the Exiles have been offered membership in Alpha Flight. One of the Logans convinces the Timebreakers that they made a mistake by kicking out the Exiles. 

Exiles 86 

Various reality Wolverines 
Timebreakers 

Exiles: 
Proteus/Morph 
Power Princess 
Longshot 
Heather Hudson 
Blink 
Spider-Man 2099 
Sabretooth 

Brother Mutant 

The Exiles go to stop Brother Mutant. Then they decide to return to their jobs repairing alternate realities. 

Exiles 87 

Exiles: 
Proteus/Morph 
Power Princess 
Longshot 
Heather Hudson 
Blink 
Spider-Man 2099 
Sabretooth 

Timebreakers 

Shiar Imperial Guard Earth 552 (also in fb) 
Silver Surfer Earth 552 (also in fb) 
Galactus Earth 552 (also in fb) 
Lilandra Earth 552 
Manta Earth 552 

Earth #552, has already been destroyed, BEFORE the Exiles go to it. The Shiar Imperial Guard are fighting the Silver Surfer. In this Universe Galactus is the Restorr of Worlds, and Silver Surfer is evil, and trying to take his power. 

Exiles 88 

Exiles: 
Proteus/Morph 
Power Princess 
Longshot 
Heather Hudson 
Blink 
Spider-Man 2099 
Sabretooth 

Manta Earth 552 
Lilandra Earth 552 
Deathbird Earth 552 
Silver Surfer Earth 552 
Galactus Earth 552 

The other s fight the Surfer, while Galactus gives Sabretooth the power cosmic. 

Exiles Annual 1 

Wrecking Crew  Earth 33629 
A team resembling the original Exiles 

Exiles: 
Proteus/Morph 
Power Princess 
Longshot 
Heather Hudson 
Blink 
Spider-Man 2099 
Sabretooth 

Grandmaster  Earth #? 

After Heather spies a team composed of the same members as the original team of Exiles, the current Exiles go to investigate. They are shocked when they find the team led by the Timebroker! The Exiles are captured. The teams team-up, and find out that their Timebroker is really the Grandmaster from the world of the first Exiles mission. Apparently, in fulfilling that mission, the Exiles caused the Grandmaster to lose a bet. He scoured the various dimensions, and posing as the Timebroker gatherd a team of Exiles similar to the originals. 

Exiles 89 

Exiles: 
Proteus/Morph 
Power Princess 
Longshot 
Heather Hudson 
Blink 
Spider-Man 2099 
Sabretooth 

T-Bird 

On Earth 27536, The Exiles fight the Sinister Six, then return to the Crystal Palace. However, Blink is inured. The team pass T-Bird, still in the stasis wall. Apparently he is dreaming, while in stasis. Heather is worried about Proteus finding out who he really is, and turning on the Exiles. The Exiles go on various missions. On one of them Spider-Man is injured. On another the White Queen almost makes Morph realize who he is, but Longshot stops her. However, Proteus keeps mumbling in his Scottish accent. 

Exiles 90 

Exiles: 
Proteus/Morph 
Power Princess 
Longshot 
Heather Hudson 
Blink 
Spider-Man 2099 
Sabretooth 

Nocturne 
Roma 
Timebreakers 
Hyperion (still trapped on his homeworld) 
Psylocke 

Heather discusses the Proteus situation with Blink and Sabretooth, and runs a simulation showing that if Proteus regains his identity, he will kill them all. Blink asks Heather to bring back Nocturne, but Heather wishes to leave her where she is on Earth-616. Power Princess decides to return home. The team go on a mission, but only Sabretooth returns, injured. Heather recruits Psylocke, but when she sees Sabretooth, she attacks him. 

Exiles 91 

Heather Hudson 
Sabretooth 
Psylocke 
Proteus/Morph 
Blink 
Spider-Man 2099 
Longshot 


Susan Storm  Earth 1720. 
Reed Richards  Earth 1720. 
Various other heroes from Earth-1720. 

While Heather, Morph And Sabretooth fight then talk to Psylocke, The other Exiles are captured by Susan Storm, who is master of the Hand on Earth-1720. The Exiles make friends with Psylocke, then go to rescue their teammates. However, after analyzing the mission, Heather tells Sabretooth that he must kill Reed Richards. 

Exiles 92 
Blink 
Sabretooth 
Psylocke 
Proteus/Mimic 
Longshot 
Spider-Man 2099 

Susan Storm  Earth 1720. 
Reed Richards  Earth 1720. 
Various other heroes from Earth-1720. 


The two parts of the team fight each other, and the Hand. 

Exiles 93 

Psylocke 
Sabretooth 
Proteus/Morph 
Blink 
Longshot 
Heather Hudson 
Spider-Man 2099  BTS 


The team fight Slaymaster of Earth 1720. 

Exiles 94 

Psylocke 
Blink 
Sabretooth 
Spider-Man 2099 
Heather Hudson 
Proteus/Morph 
Longshot 

Susan Storm  Earth 1720. 
Reed Richards  Earth 1720. 

The Exiles stop Hydra. 

Exiles: 

Blink 
EX3 81 
EX3 82 
EX3 83 
**EX3 84 
**EX3 85 
**EX3 86 
**EX3 87 
**EX3 88 
**EX3@ 1 
**EX3 89 
**EX3 90 
**EX3 91 
**EX3 92 
**EX3 93 
**EX3 94 

HYPERION 
EX3 62 
EX3 63 
EX3 64 
EX3 65 
**EX3 90 

LONGSHOT 
EX3 81 
EX3 82 
EX3 83 
**EX3 84 
**EX3 85 
**EX3 86 
**EX3 87 
**EX3 88 
**EX3@ 1 
**EX3 89 
**EX3 90 
**EX3 91 
**EX3 92 
**EX3 93 
**EX3 94 

NOCTURNE 
EX3 45 
EX3 46 
EX3 47 
EX3 48 
**EX3 90 

POWER PRINCESS 
EX3 81 
EX3 82 
EX3 83 
**EX3 84 
**EX3 85 
**EX3 86 
**EX3 87 
**EX3 88 
**EX3@ 1 
**EX3 89 
**EX3 90 

Proteus 
EX3 81 
EX3 82 
EX3 83 
**EX3 84 
**EX3 85 
**EX3 86 
**EX3 87 
**EX3 88 
**EX3@ 1 
**EX3 89 
**EX3 90 
**EX3 91 
**EX3 92 
**EX3 93 
**EX3 94 

PSYLOCKE 
XX 1 
XX 2 
XX 3 
XX 4 
**EX3 90 
**EX3 91 
**EX3 92 
**EX3 93 
**EX3 94 

ROMA 
XCAL2 3 
XCAL2 4 
FF3 47 
FF3 48 
**EX3 90 

SABRETOOTH 
EX3 81 
EX3 82 
EX3 83 
**EX3 84 
**EX3 85 
**EX3 86 
**EX3 87 
**EX3 88 
**EX3@ 1 
**EX3 89 
**EX3 90 
**EX3 91 
**EX3 92 
**EX3 93 
**EX3 94 

SASQUATCH/Heather Hudson 
EX3 81 
EX3 82 
EX3 83 
**EX3 84 
**EX3 85 
**EX3 86 
**EX3 87 
**EX3 88 
**EX3@ 1 
**EX3 89 
**EX3 90 
**EX3 91 
**EX3 93 
**EX3 94 

SPIDER-MAN 2099 
EX3 81 
EX3 82 
EX3 83 
**EX3 84 
**EX3 85 
**EX3 86 
**EX3 87 
**EX3 88 
**EX3@ 1 
**EX3 89 
**EX3 90 
**EX3 91 
**EX3 92 
**EX3 93-BTS 
**EX3 94 

T-Bird 
EX3 10 
EX3 62 
EX3 63 
EX3 83 
**EX3 89 

AGE OF APOCALYPSE: 
Rogue 
AMAZX 4 
X:OMEGA 
**EX3 84 

Magneto 
WX 4 
X:OMEGA 
**EX3 84

			*	*	*

Thread 39

Subject: Spider-Man: The Mutant Agenda 1994

Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:22 pm 
By Dhall

Another gap book done! 


Spider-Man: The Mutant Agenda #1 
March 1994 

Note: This story takes place before Amazing Spider-Man #385. 

Characters Appearing: 
Beast 
Archangel 
Rogue 
Bishop 
Gambit 
Spider-Man 
Mary Jane Watson-Parker 
Hobgoblin V/Jason Macendale 
Lanson, Brand CEO 

Synopsis: 
The X-Men avoid missiles, in a danger room scenario. Then Beast mopes, as he reads a headline about Brand Corp. He fears that the company may have found a copy of his old research on the secrets of mutation. Spider-Man is going to cover the Brand conference, so he swings across New York City, and is seen by the Hobgoblin, who hides from him. Spider-Man sees him anyway, and they fight. Hobgoblin escapes, but nearly runs into the Beast. Hank pulls on a hat and coat, and attends the conference, as does Peter Parker. Lanson, the Brand CEO announces that Brand can make its own mutants. Then Hobgoblin attacks him. Beast and Spider-Man go into action against him. Hobgoblin goes out through a hole in the ceiling, leaving the two heroes to deal with a collapsing roof. 


Spider-Man: The Mutant Agenda #2 
April 1994 
Characters Appearing: 
Beast 
Spider-Man 
Hobgoblin 
Landon 
Burgos, Dr. Everett 

In Flashback: 
Landon, as a young researcher at Brand, first attends a company party with Hank McCoy, then later watches the Beast (already blue) vault a fence, while being fired at by a guard. 

Since the Beast is blue, this has to occur after AA2 15. Since hes still at Brand, it has to occur before A 140-FB, where Hank is fired. The company party fb, could occur anywhere between AA2 11 and 15. 
Im trying to put it as early as possible, which would be after Hank starts working at Brand, but before he meets Maddicks. Im not sure Im parsing the flashbacks in AA11 correctly, so please let me know, if Ive placed this fb after the wrong one. 


Synopsis: 
Spider-Man uses his webbing to hold up the ceiling, until the crowd can evacuate. Landon for whatever reason, wants Beast and Spider-Man dead. The two track Hobgoblin to a Brand research facility. Beast makes an excuse to separate, so he can poke around in the lab. Hobgoblin sets of an alarm to set guards after the heroes, while he attempts to steal Brands research, and then delete Brands copy. After the heroes burst in, Hobgoblin runs off. Beast tells Spider-Man to follow Hobgoblin, while he checks out the computers. Beast determines that Hobgoblins virus has worked, and is destroying Brands data. SpiderMan follows Hobgoblin to the Brand office tower, where he is trying to sell back the data to Landon. It turns out that Brands data is faked, and the Hobgoblin threatens to expose Landon. Spider-Man bursts in and saves Hobgoblin from Landon, who is about to shoot him. Spider-Man is shot, instead of Hobgoblin, who escapes. Spider-Man is captured by Landons guards. Meanwhile Beast is also captured. Of course, the Beast was just playing along, and breaks free at the lab. However, he is captured for real, by Dr. Everett Burgos. 

Spider-Man: The Mutant Agenda #3 
May 1994 
Characters Appearing: 
Landon 
Spider-Man 
Hobgoblin 
Ernie 

While Landon carts off Spider-Man, Hobgoblin nurses his sorrows at a bar, where he is made fun of and gets into a fight with the patrons. Landon gloats for a while, to the two heroes. Hobgoblin attacks Landon, freeing Spider-Man and the Beast, by accident. Landon falls into his own genetic solution, becoming a monster. Spider-Man takes him down. The End. 


ANGEL III 
 
UX 304 
UX 306 
X 25 
**SM:MA 1 
X 26 
AWC 101 
UX 307 
A 369 
 

BEAST 
X:HY 22 
AA2 11-FB 
UO 6 
AA2 11-FB 
UO 6 
**SM:MA 2-FB 
AA2 11-FB 
UO 6 
AA2 11-FB 
AA2 11 
AA2 12 
AA2 13 
AA2 14 
M/TU 4 
AA2 14 
UO 6 
AA2 15 
A 144-FB 
UO 6 
AA2 15 
**SM:MA 2-FB 
A 140-FB 
AA2 16 
H2 161 
 
UX 304 
UX 306 
X 25 
W2 75 
**SM:MA 1 
**SM:MA 2 
**SM:MA 3 
X@ 2 
X@ 2/2 
[GAM4 10-FB] 
A 368 
X 26 
AWC 101 
UX 307 
A 369 
XU 3 
 

BISHOP 
 
X 25 
W2 75 
**SM:MA 1 
A 368 
X 26 
AWC 101 
UX 307 
A 369 
 

GAMBIT 
 
UX 304 
GAM 1 
GAM 2 
GAM 3 
GAM 4 
X 25 
W2 75 
**SM:MA 1 
X@ 2 
[GAM4 10-FB] 
A 368 
X 26 
AWC 101 
UX 307 
A 369 
 


Hobgoblin V 
 
WOSM 96 
SOV 6 
SLEEP 20 
SLEEP 21 
SLEEP 22 
AF 121 
DLOK2 26 
**SM:MA 1 
**SM:MA 2 
**SM:MA 3 
S-M 44 
S-M 47 
S-M 48 
S-M 49 
ASM:FO 1 
ASM:FO 2 
ASMU 9 
GG 4 
S-M 68 
PPTSS 234 
ASMU 12 
S-M 69 

*LANDON 
SM:MA 2-FB 
SM:MA 1 
SM:MA 2 
SM:MA 3 

ROGUE 
 
UX 304 
GAM 1 
GAM 2 
GAM 3 
GAM 4 
UX 305 
X 25 
W2 75 
**SM:MA 1 
X@ 2 
A 368 
X 26 
AWC 101 
UX 307 
A 369 
 


Spider-Man 
 
ASM 382 
M/CP 138/4 
S-M 38 
S-M 39 
S-M 40 
WM2 28 
WM2 29 
PPTSS@ 13 
M/HOL 1993 
PPTSS 204 
PPTSS 205 
PPTSS 206 
PPTSS 207 
**SM:MA 1 
**SM:MA 2 
**SM:MA 3 
ASM 383 
ASM 384 
ASM 385 
WOSM 107 
WOSM 108 
WOSM 109 
ASM 385 
 

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 
 
PPTSS 204 
PPTSS 205 
PPTSS 206 
**SM:MA 1 
ASM 383 
ASM 384 
ASM 385 
WOSM 107 
WOSM 108 
ASM 385 


			*	*	*

Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:01 pm 
By JLH

Though I don't recall it ever being in the comics, Landon's first name was claimed to be "Herbert" in the 90s Spider-Man animated adaption of this storyline.

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:11 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Is it correct that there is an Issue #0 for this miniseries as well, featuring original material, (it wasn't just a promo book)?

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:25 pm 
By Dhall

That question is answered in this thread: 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... php?t=2385

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:54 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Dhall wrote:
That question is answered in this thread:

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... php?t=2385

Ah, thanks! That clarifies it...

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001

			*	*	*

Thread 40

Subject: Marvel Westerns: Strange Westerns

Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:52 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Frederic Krier recently posted this analysis of Marvel Westerns: Strange Westerns, but something really wonky was going on with the database, because if you tried to read it, you got a database/timeout error. 

I managed to salvage the text of his post from the database, and am representing it, pretty much in its entirety, but the work, and the credit, belongs to Frederic. 

Frederic, I've manually adjusted your post count to reflect the analysis here, and added a second post to your count, for your troubles. 


Marvel Westerns: Strange Westerns Starring the Black Rider 1 
October 2006 

Black Rider: Black Homecoming 
W: Steve Englehart P: Marshall Rogers I: Al Vey 

Appearances: Black Rider/Dr. Morris Masters, Desiree Holloway, George Morris, Helen Morris, Ned Morris (in FB), Luke Davis (in FB), Jezebel (BTS, in FB), Kid Colt (in FB), Wu (in FB), Ancient One/"Yao", "Bill" (a gangster), Lathrop (in FB), Blast Burrows (in FB), Clea, Dr. Strange II/Stephen Strange, various unidentified persons from the 19th Century 

Synopsis: 
Pg. 1: A "symbolic" splash featuring Black Rider and his horse Satan/Ichabod. 
Pg. 2-4,p7: One night. 19th Century New York City. Dr. Morris Masters visits his aunt and oncle, George and Helen Morris, in Westcliff. He introduces himself to Desiree Holloway, a friend of the family, who were just about to retire to dinner with several guests. Shortly afterwards, Morris starts answering questions about his past, over dinner. 
Pg. 4,p8-Pg.5,p1: FB. Morris is 8 years old. His father, Ned, is shot by Luke Davis, who is after the family's land. 
Pg.5,p2: Back to the dinner. Morris gets asked about his mother. 
Pg.5,p3-4: FB. Just after Morris' birth. A doctor tells Ned Morris that his son is fine, but that the mother didn't survive the childbirth. Kid Colt is seen riding by in the background. 
Pg.5, p5: Back to the dinner. A priest enquiries about Morris' career as a doctor. 
Pg.5,p6-Pg.7,p1:FB. Morris, as a young adult, shoots down Luke Morris and all of his men. Later, he is put on trial, is found guilty but remanded to probation by the judge, who has decided that "the State of Texas is a better place without such vermin as Luke Davis". 
Pg.7,p2-Pg.8,p4: More talk about the dinner, about Morris studying medecine at the university of Mexico, and his father's affair with a Chinese "servant", which had led him to leave New York. Morris leaves the company to take his horse Ichabod, who's ill, for a ride and even declines to give Miss Holloway a ride home. 
Pg.8,p5-Pg.14: Later. Morris rides down Broadway, into Chinatown. During the ride, he remembers a young Chinese woman who he had treated back west, who told him about being stolen from China and taken as a prostitute to New York, before dying. She has a letter with her, indicating the place where the next shipment will arrive. The Chinese signature is partially ripped off, and Morris' Chinese friend Wu can't help with deciphering either (FB sequence on Pg.9,p2-3, 4, 6-7, 9; Pg.10,p2-5). Morris changes to his Black Rider uniform and climbs up the roof to get a better look at the scene, and is surprised seeing a lone Chinese man fighting some of the smugglers on the docks. He joins in to help him, and both manage to flee with the help of Satan/Ichabod. 
Pg.15-16,p1: "Two minutes and ten blocks later". The Chinese introduces himself as "Yao" and tells the Black Rider he's in New York to stop the "whore trade". He manages to complete the sign on the letter, which stands for "Western Cliff". Black Rider angrily rides away. 
Pg.16,p2-Pg.18,p1: FB. The origin story of Black Rider, who adopted the identity to protect old Lathrop from Blast Burrows and his gang without acting against his probation terms. He also remembers how he told his horse Satan to act like he was a "broken-down cayuse" and answer to the name "Ichabod". 
Pg.18,p2-Pg.26,p5: Later that night. Black Rider confronts George Morris about his Chinese whore gang, but actually his wife Helen is revealed as the head of the gang. After a fight, Black Rider knocks George down with the back of his rifle, but Helen has fled through a secret tunnel, that leads outside of town. Black Rider and Satan manage to follow her. After a final confrontation, the Black Rider shoots her in cold blood. "Yao" secretly watches the scene. 
Pg.26,p6-9: 90 years later. "...uary 22 19...". The Ancient One recalls his encounter with "another doctor" he met in New York when he was younger, but is interrupted by Dr. Strange and Clea, both in morning gowns. 

Comments: see http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... php?t=3122 for the Ancient One, Clea and Dr. Strange. Black Rider's origin here seems more or less consistant with what I found on the 'net ( http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/b/bl ... timely.htm), but they changed his first name from "Matthew" to "Morris". Maybe he's called "Morris Matthew Masters". 

Gunhawk: The Midnight Gun 
W: Joe R. Lansdale A: Rafa Garres 

Appearances: Gunhawk II, Buck, "Kid", unidentified demon, unidentified Sheriff, various unidentified persons from the Old West 

Synopsis: Pg.1-Pg.3,p3: Midnight. Late October. Full Moon. 19th Century.A young man, only called "Kid" or "Sonny" throughout the story, brings a baby he stole from a crib towards a dark, mysterious figure in a cemetery. The demonic figure brands "Kid" with his cigar (the brand shows the serpent in the garden of Eden) and gives him a gun, that will make him the "fastest gun alive". This spell however only works at night because of a deal the demonic figure made with the "other guy" ("Night is mine. Day is his"). 
Pg.3,p4-Pg.5,p3: One day. Gunhawk rides into a western town, walks into the saloon. A guy called "Buck" tries to shoot him from behind, but Gunhawk is faster. The sheriff of the town isn't happy about Gunhawk's presence, but Gunhawk promises to leave after a night's rest. 
Pg.5,p4-Pg.8,p9: Later. Nighttime. "Kid" arrives in the same town, is told about Gunhawk, and challenges him to a gunfight. While "Kid" is faster, his aim is severely lacking, and Gunhawk shoots him after "Kid" is out of the bullets. The ghost of "Kid" materializes at the cemetery. The demonic figure remarks: "Well, that didn't take long". 
Pg.8,p10-11: One day. Gunhawk decides he doesn't like the look of "Kid"'s gun, and throws it into a river. 

Comments: The Gunhawk appearing here is the one who first appeared in Western Gunfighters #1 (1970), not the one from the fifties. The demon could be "Satan"/Marduk Kurios (no relation to Satan/"Ichabod") or Mephisto or any other devil-like figure. Maybe the serpent brand links him to Set in some way? 

Placements: 
I know next to nothing about Marvel western chronology. Anyway: 

ANCIENT ONE 
... 
UX 33-FB 
MWSWSBR 1/1 (11:4 - 26:5) 
W2 113-FB 
... 
DRSTR 178 
MWSWSBR 1/1 (26:6 - 26:9) 
M/FEA 1/3 

BLACK RIDER/DR.MORRIS [MATTHEW] MASTERS 

MWSWSBR 1/1 

CLEA 
... 
DRSTR 183-FB 
MWSWSBR 1/1 
M/FEA 2 

DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 
... 
H2 126 
MWSWSBR 1/1 
M/FEA 1/3 

GUNHAWK II 

MWSWSBR 1/2 

KID COLT/BLAINE COLT 

MWSWSBR 1/1-FB

			*	*	*

Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:10 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Administrator wrote:
>>>
Frederic Krier recently posted this analysis of Marvel Westerns: Strange Westerns, but something really wonky was going on with the database, because if you tried to read it, you got a database/timeout error.
<<<

I had that problem the other day with my post on the NA:Illumanati thread in MU, but I managed to manually type in the edit link to delete the post & repost it.

			*	*	*

Thread 41

Subject: Marvel UK 1992-1994

Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:28 pm 
By Dhall

More UK issues.... 
Standard Disclaimers apply: 
1) These listings should take us through everything except Marvel UK Frontier. 
2) I have brief write-ups of all of these issues, but given how long just the character listings are, I'm not going to post them, unless someone REALLY wants to read them. 
3) For characters who are already in the MCP, I had to make some placements based off publication date alone, and try not to put them in the middle of an ongoing storyline. 
4) I've done my best, but it's inevitable that the occasional mistake will have crept in. 
5) There is no #5. 
6) If anyone has them, please write up the Wild Angels series, released only in Italy. Thank You! 


Codes: 
BA  Black Axe 
BT  Battletide 
BT2  Battletide II 
C:GENE  Codename: Genetix 
DA  Dark Angel 
DCVGF  Die-Cut Vs. G-Force 
DG  Dark Guard 
DHGOLD  Deaths Head Gold 
DHII  Deaths Head II 
DHII2  Deaths Head II v.2 
DHIIODC  Deaths Head II and the Origin of Die-Cut 
DIECUT  Die-Cut 
DM  Death Metal 
DMVG  Death Metal Vs. Genetix 
DW  Death Wreck 
D3  Death 3 
GD  Gene Dogs 
DIGI  Digitek 
GENE  Genetix 
GUN- Gun Runner 
HA  Hells Angel 
IDH  Incomplete Deaths Head 
KEY  Killpower: The Early Years 
KOP2  Knights of Pendragon II 
MM  Motormouth 
MMKP  Motormouth & Killpower 
MTW  Mys-Tech Wars 
PLASMER  Plasmer 
SR  Shadow Riders 
WARH  Warheads 
WARH:BD  Warheads: Black Dawn 

Mys-Tech Board members: 

CROWE, ALGERNON 
HA 1 
DA 14-FB 
BA 2-FB 
MM 5-FB 
KEY 4 
KOP2 1 
KOP2 4 
BA 1-FB 
BA 3 
MM 1 
MM 2 
MM 3 
MM 5 
HA 1 
HA 2 
HA 3 
HA 4 
DA 13 
DA 6 
DA 7 
DA 8 
WARH 7 
WARH 9-BTS 
WARH 10 
MMKP 7 
MMKP 8 
DA 9 
DA 10 
MTW 1-BTS pg 1 panel 7, pg 2 panel 5 
MMKP 9 pg 10, 15 
MMKP 9 pg 16 ~ MTW 1 pg 2 panel 9 
MTW 1 pg 2 panel 10 
MMKP 9 pg 17 panels 1-3 
MTW 1 pg 2 panel 11 
MMKP 9 pg 17 panels 4-6 
MTW 1 page 3 
MMKP 9 pg 17 panels 7-8 
MTW 1 pgs 4-7 
MMKP 9 pg 23 
MTW 1 pg 15 
MTW 2 
DHII2 5 
KOP2 12 
MTW 3 
WARH 11 
MTW 3 
MTW 4 
SR 2 
DA 12 
GD 1 
GD 2 
GD 3 
GD 4 
PLASMER 1 
PLASMER 2 
PLASMER 3 
PLASMER 4 
BT 1 
DA 13 
DA 14 
DA 15 
DA 16 
DHII2 15 
DM 4 

GRYFNN, BRONWEN 
HA 1 
DA 14-FB 
BA 2-FB 
KEY 4 
KOP2 1 
KOP2 4 
BA 1-FB 
BA 3 
MM 1 
MM 2 
WARH 8/3 
MM 5 
HA 1 
HA 2 
HA 3 
HA 4 
DIGI 4-BTS 
DA 13 
DA 6 
DA 7 
DA 8 
WARH 6 
WARH 7 
MMKP 7 
DA 9 
DA 10 
MTW 1 
MMKP 9 
MTW 1 
MTW 2-BTS 
DHII2 5 
KOP2 12 
MTW 3 
WARH 11 
MTW 3 
MTW 4 
SR 2 
DA 12 
DA 13 
DA 14 
DA 15 
DA 16 
DM 4 


HALDANE, RANULPH 
HA 1 
DA 14-FB 
KOP2 4 
MM 1 
HA 1 
DA 6 
DA 9 
DA 12 

PORLOCK 
HA 1 
DA 14-FB 
BA 2-FB 
KOP2 1 
KOP2 4 
BA 1-FB 
BA 3 
MM 1 
MM 5 
HA 1 
HA 2 
HA 3 
HA 4 
DA 13 
DA 6 
DA 7 
DA 8 
WARH 6 
WARH 7 
WARH 10 
MMKP 8 
DA 9 
MTW 1 
MMKP 9 
MTW 1 
MTW 2 
DHII2 5 
MTW 2 
DHII2 5 
WARH 11 
KOP2 12 
MTW 3 
WARH 11 
MTW 3 
MTW 4 
SR 1 
SR 2 
SR 3 
SR 4 
DA 13 
DA 14 
DM 4 

RATHCOOLE 
HA 1 
DA 14-FB 
BA 2-FB 
KEY 4 
BA 3 
MM 1 
MM 2 
WARH 2/2 
SR 1/2 
WARH 5 
WARH 8/3 
MM 5 
HA 1 
HA 2 
HA 3 
HA 4 
DA 13 
DA 6 
DA 7 
DA 8-BTS 
WARH 6 
WARH 7 
WARH 9 
WARH 9/2 
WARH 10 
MMKP 8 
MTW 1 
MMKP 9 
MTW 1 
MTW 2-BTS 
DHII2 5 
WARH 11 
MTW 3 
WARH 11 
MTW 3 
MTW 4 
SR 2 
SR 3 
SR 4 
DA 13 
DA 14 
DCVGF 1 
DCVGF 2 
DM 1 
DM 2 
DM 3 
DM 4 

TYBURN, GUDRUN 
HA 1 
DA 14-FB 
BA 2-FB 
KEY 4 
KOP2 1 
KOP2 4 
BA 1-FB 
BA 3 
MM 1 
MM 3 
MM 5 
HA 1 
HA 2 
HA 3 
HA 4 
DA 13 
DA 6 
DA 7 
DA 8 
WARH 6 
WARH 7 
MMKP 6 
MMKP 7 
MMKP 8 
MTW 1-BTS pg 1 panel, pg 2 panel 5 
MMKP 9 pg 10 
MTW 1 pg 5-7 
MMKP 9 pg 23 
MTW 1 15 
MTW 2 
DHII2 5 
KOP2 12 
MTW 3 
WARH 11 
MTW 3 
MTW 4 
SR 2 
SR 3 
SR 4 
DA 13 
DA 14 
DM 4 


WYCHWOOD, ORMOND 
HA 1 
DA 14-FB 
BA 2-FB 
MM 4/2 
KEY 4 
KOP2 1 
KOP2 4 
BA 1-FB 
BA 3 
MM 1 
MM 5 
HA 1 
HA 2 
HA 3 
HA 4 
DA 13 
DA 6 
KOP2 10 
KOP2 11 
DA 7 
DA 8-BTS 
WARH 6 
WARH 7 
C:GENE 1 
C:GENE 2 
C:GENE 3 
C:GENE 4 
DA 9 
MTW 1 
MMKP 9 
MTW 1 
MTW 2-BTS 
DHII2 5 
KOP2 12 
MTW 3 
WARH 11 
MTW 3 
MTW 4 
SR 2 
GD 2 
GD 3 
GD 4 
PLASMER 1 
PLASMER 2 
PLASMER 3 
DA 13 
DA 14 
GENE 4 
GENE 5-FB 
GENE 6 
DHII2 15 
DM 4 

Others: 

ABADON/MATTHEW RYAN 
SR 4-FB 
SR 1 
SR 2 
SR 3 
SR 4 

ABYSSS 
DM 1 
DM 3 
DM 4 

AEISH 
WARH 4 
WARH 5 

AFRIKAA 
BA 6-FB 
BA 5 
BA 6 
BA 7 

ALKEMIST 
DHII2 13 
DHII2 14 
DHII2 15 

AMENTAH 
BA 4-FB-FB-FB 

AMBASSADOR 
PLASMER 1 
PLASMER 2 
PLASMER 3 
PLASMER 4 

ANGEL OF DEATH/DARKANGEL 
HA 1 
DA 6 
DA 9 
DA 12 
DA 14 

ANTI-BEING 
DA 10-FB 
DA 13 
DA 11 
DA 12 
DA 14 
DA 15 
DA 16 

ANTIBODY DEATHS HEAD 
DHII2 5 

ANULA, LADY 
DHIIODC 1 
DHIIODC 2 

ARGON 
DM 1 
DM 2 

ARNHEIM, STACY 
WARH 5-FB 
WARH 8/2-FB 
WARH 1 
WARH 1 /2 
WARH 2 
WARH 4 
WARH 5 
WARH 8/3-FB 
WARH 8/3 
KOP2 6 
KOP2 7 
KOP2 8 
KOP2 9 
WARH 7 
WARH 8 
WARH 9 
WARH 10 
MTW 1 
MTW 2 
DHII2 5 
WARH 11 
DHII2 5 pg 20 panel 2 ~ WARH 11 pg. 7 ~ MTW 2 pg 21 panel 3-4 
WARH 11 pgs. 1-5 
MTW 3 pg 9, panel 5 
WARH 11 pg 8, panel 1 
MTW pg 9, panels 1-2 
WARH 11 pgs. 9-23 
MTW 3 pg. 18 
WARH 12 
WARH 13 
WARH 14 
WARH:BD 1 
WARH:BD 2 
DG 1 
DG 3 
DG 4 

ARRAKHYL 
KOP2 6-FB 
KOP2 6 
KOP2 7 
KOP2 8 
KOP2 9 
WARH 7 
WARH 8 

ASUZA 
MMKP 6 
MMKP 7 

AUDIT/GRANT, MR. 
WARH 1 
WARH 2 
WARH 2/2 
WARH 4 
SR 1/2 
WARH 5 
WARH 6 
WARH 7 
WARH 8 

AUTOMATON 
GD 1 
GD 2 
GD 3 
GD 4 

BAD HAND/ THOMAS PYKE 
WARH 2 
MM 3 
MM 4 
MM 5 
MMKP 6 
MMKP 7 
MMKP 8 
MMKP 9 

BANZAI 
GD 1 
GD 2 
GD 3 
GD 4 

BARDOT, BETHLEHEM 
DHII2 14 
DHII2 15 

BASE/HIRO 
GENE 5-FB 
KEY 1 
KEY 2 
KEY 3 
KEY 4 
C:GENE 1 
C:GENE 2 
C:GENE 3 
C:GENE 4 
GD 2 
GENE 1 
GENE 2 
GENE 3 
GENE 4 
GENE 5 
GENE 6 
DMVG 1 
DM VG 2 

BENSON 
PLASMER 3 
PLASMER 4 

BETTE NOIR 
DHII2 9 

BEZIAL 
BT 4-BTS 
BT2 1-BTS 
BT2 2 
BT2 3 
BT2 4 

BLACK AXE/ROBERT HYDE 
BA 7-FB 
BA 3-FB 
BA 2-FB (1603) 
BA 3-FB 
BA2-FB (1936) 
BA 1-FB (WW II) 
BA 1-FB 
BA 1 
BA 2 
BA 3 
BA 4 
BA 5 
BA 6 
BA 7 

BLACK CURATOR 
DHIIODC 1 
DHIIODC 2 

BOOT 
SR 1 /2-FB 
SR 1 
SR 2 
SR 3 
SR 4 

BRASSKNUCKLES 
DM 2 
DM 3 
DM 4 

BRAXUS 
DA 9 
DA 11 
DA 12 
DA 16 

BRYANT, SAMANTHA 
DIGI 1 
DIGI 2 
DIGI 3 
DIGI 4-FB 
DIGI 4 

BUBBLE 
GENE 5-FB 
GENE 2 
GENE 3 
GENE 4 
GENE 6 

BUG II 
HA 5 
DA 13 
DA 14 
DA 16 

BURGEN 
DW 3 
DW 4-FB 
DW 4 
DW 1 
DW 4 

BYTE 
DIGI 1 
DIGI 2 
DIGI 3 

CALE 
WARH 8/2-FB 
WARH 1 

CAPTAIN KEROSENE/GULLIVER JONES 
PLASMER 1 
PLASMER 2 
PLASMER 4 

CARDINAL, JONATHAN 
BA 5 
BA 6 
BA 7 

CAT VI/EMMA MALONE 
GD 1 
GD 2-FB 
GD 2 
GD 3 
GD 4 
GENE 3 
GENE 4 

CHARNEL/BARON VON STRUCKER THE FIFTH 
DHII 2 
DHII 3 
DHII 4 
Continues as Kite 
Continued from Kite 
DHII2 11 
DHII2 12 

CHARNEL|EARTH-CHARNEL 
DHII 4 
D3 3 
D3 4 

CHE 
GENE 5-FB 
SR 1/2-FB 
WARH 5-BTS 
WARH 6 
WARH 7 
WARH 8 
WARH 9 
WARH 10 
DHII2 5 
WARH 11 
DHII2 5 
WARH 11 pgs. 1-5 
MTW 3 pg 9 panel 5 
WARH 11 pgs. 8-23 
MTW 3 pg. 18 
WARH 12 
SR 2 
SR 3 
SR 4 

CHRONOZONE 
DHII2 16 

CICATRICE 
DHGOLD 

COLLAPSAR 
DG 2 
DG 3 
DG 4 

COREY 
WARH 1 

DARK ANGEL/HELLS ANGEL/SHEVAUN HALDANE 
HA 1 
HA 2 
HA 3 
HA4 
HA 5 
DA 6 
DA 6/2 
DA 7 
DA 8 
C:GENE 1 
DA 9 
DA 10 
MTW 1 
DA 10 
MTW 1 
DA 10 
MTW 2 
MTW 3 
MTW 4 
DA 11 
DA 12 
SR 2 
BT 1 
BT 2 
BT 3-FB 
BT 3 
BT 4 
DA 13 
DA 14 
DA 15 
DA 16 
DG 1 
DG 2 
DG 3 
DG 4 
GENE 1 

DEATHS HEAD (FREELANCE PEACEKEEPING AGENT) 
 
IDH 11 
DWM 173 
IDH 12 
DHII 1 
**DHII1 ~ DHII2 9 
**DHII 1 
**DHII2 9 
**DHII1 ~ DHII2 9 
**DHII2 9 
**DHII 1 

DEATH METAL 
D3 1 
D3 2 
D3 3 
D3 4 
DM 2-FB 
DMVG 1-FB 
DM 1 
DM 2 
DMVG 1-FB 
DM 3 
DM 4 
DMVG 1 
DMVG 2-FB 
DMVG 2 

DEATH WRECK 
DW 1 
D3 1-FB 
DW 1 
DW 2 
DW 3 
DW 4-FB 
DW 4 
D3 1 
D3 2 
D3 3 
D3 4 

DECOSTA 
WARH 13 
WARH 14 
WARH:BD 1 

DEMOGOG MONSANTO 
DG 4 

DEMOGOG TANSTEELE 
DG 2 
DG 3 
DG 4 

DIE-CUT/ CZORN-YSON 
DHIIODC 2-FB 
DHIIODC 2-FB 
DHIIODC 1 
DHIIODC 2 
DCVGF 1 
DCVGF 2 
DIECUT 1 
DIECUT 2 
DIECUT 3 
DIECUT 4 

DIGITEK/DOCTOR JONATHAN BRYANT 
DIGI 1 
DIGI 2 
DIGI 3 
DIGI 4-FB 
DIGI 4 

DOORMAN/HERBERT ISAACS 
PLASMER 3-FB 
PLASMER 3 
PLASMER 4 

DRAFT 
WARH 1 

DUNCAN 
WARH 13 
WARH 14 
WARH:BD 1 
WARH:BD 2 

EAGLE II/LARS DINKELBACK 
GD 1-FB 
GD 1 
GD 2-FB 
GD 2 
GD 3 
GD 4 
GENE 4 

EVONE 
KOP2 6 
KOP2 7 
KOP2 8 
KOP2 9 

FARCUS 
MMKP 6 
MMKP 7 

FISHBURNE, SIDNEY 
KEY 2-FB 
KEY 1-FB 
KEY 2 
KEY 3 
KEY 4 

FIRECREST 
MMKP 8 
MMKP 9-BTS 
SR 2 
SR 3 
SR 4 

FIRESTRIKE 
GD 1 
GD 2 
GD 3 
GD 4 

FOTHERGILL, KEVIN 
MM 2 

FRACTAL 
GENE 2 
GENE 3 
GENE 4 
GENE 6 

FUGUE 
GENE 2 
GENE 3 
GENE 4 
GENE 5 
GENE 6 

G-FORCE/PROFESSOR DANIEL JONES 
DCVGF 1-FB 
DCVGF 1 
DCVGF 2 

GABRIEL 
BT2 1-FB 
BT2 3-FB 
BT2 3 
BT2 4 

GAWAIN (ROBOT) 
KOP2 1 
KOP2 2 
KOP2 2-FB 
KOP2 2 
KOP2 3 
KOP2 4 
KOP2 5 
KOP2 6 
KOP2 7 
KOP2 8 
KOP2 9 
KOP2 10 
KOP2 11 
KOP2 12 
MTW 3-BTS 
KOP2 13 
KOP2 14 
KOP2 15 

GENGHIS 
WARH 6 

GOODFELLOW 
SR 1 
SR 3 
SR 4 

GREGORY 
WARH 8/2-FB 
WARH 1 /2 
WARH 2 
WARH 3 
WARH 4 
WARH 5 
WARH 6 
WARH 7 
WARH 8 
WARH 9 
WARH 10 
DHII2 5 
WARH 11 
MTW 3 
WARH 12 
WARH 14 
WARH:BD 1 
WARH:BD 2 

GREVILLE 
DIGI 1 
DIGI 2 
DIGI 3 
DIGI 4 

GRIERSON 
WARH 3 
KOP2 6 
KOP2 7 
KOP2 8 
KOP2 9 

GRUNT/ARNOLD COLTRANE 
SR 1 
SR 2 
SR 3 
SR 4 

GUIDE 
HA 2 
HA 3 
HA 4 
DA 6 
DA 6/2 
DA 9 
DA 11 
DA 12 
DA 13 
DA 15 
DA 16 


GUTHRIE, IAIN 
KOP2 1 
KOP2 2 
KOP2 3 
KOP2 4 

GUTHRIE, MARIE 
KOP2 1 
KOP2 2 
KOP2 4 

HADRIAN 
MMKP 7 

HALL, EMILY 
BA 1-FB 
BA 1 

HANI 
BA 6 
BA 7 

HARVESTER 
KOP2 2 
GD 1 
GD 2 
GD 3 
GD 4 

HATCH 
MMKP 8 
MMKP 9 
SR 2 
SR 3 
SR 4 

HEAVEN, JOHNNY 
WARH 1 /2 
WARH 2 

HELLS ANGEL 
See Dark Angel 

HERON 
DHII2 14/2-FB 
DHGOLD 

HOREM 
BA 4-FB-FB 
BA 4-FB 

HOWITZER/SHAKA 
GD 1-FB 
GD 1 
GD 2 
GD 3 
GD 4 
GENE 3 
GENE 4 

HUTCH, CAPTAIN JEANET 
DHII2 13 
DHII2 14 
DHII2 15 

ID-SISTER 
DIECUT 1 
DIECUT 2 
DIECUT 3 
DIECUT 4 

IRUDEF 
BA 4-FB-FB 
BA 4-FB-FB-FB 

JAMES, BREEZE 
KOP2 1 
KOP2 2 
KOP2 3 
KOP2 4 
KOP2 5 
KOP2 6 
KOP2 7 
KOP2 8 
KOP2 9 
KOP2 10 
KOP2 11 
KOP2 12 
MTW 3 
KOP2 13 
KOP2 14 
KOP2 15 

JEPHCOTT, MARX 
DIGI 3 
DIGI 4-FB 
DIGI 4 

JO-JO 
MMKP 6 
MMKP 7 

KARAGAR, PILGRIM 
DHII2 15 

KAGE 
BA 2 

KARBON 
GENE 5-FB 
GENE 2 
GENE 3 
GENE 4 
GENE 5 
GENE 6 

KAY/MS. PRTEZYN 
DIGI 1 
DIGI 2 
DIGI 3 
DIGI 4 

KESTREL/ANNIE JONES 
GD 1-FB 
GD 1 
GD 2 
GD 3 
GD 4 
GENE 3 
GENE 4 

KILLPOWER/ JULIUS MULLARKEY 
MM 4/2 
KEY 1 
KEY 2 
KEY 3 
KEY 4 
MM 1 
MM 2 
MM 3 
MM 4 
MM 5 
MMKP 6 
MMKP 7 
MMKP 8 
MMKP 9 
MTW 2 
MTW 3 
MTW 4 
BT 1 
BT 2 
BT 3 
BT 4 
BT2 1 
BT2 2 
BT2 3 
BT2 4 
MMKP 10 
MMKP 11 
MMKP 12-FB 
MMKP 12 
MMKP 12/2 
DG 1 
DG 2 
DG 3 
DG 4 
H2 408 
H2 409 

KIPPLE 
MMKP 12/2 

KITE 
Continued from Charnel 
DHII2 1 
DHII2 2 
DHII2 3 
DHII2 5 
DHII2 6 
DHII2 10 
DHII2 11 
Continued as Charnel 

KOZINSKI 
MMKP 6 
MMKP 7 

LAARSON 
MM 1 

LEDGER 
WARH 8/2-FB 
WARH 8 

LEE, MR. 
WARH 9 
WARH 12 

LIGER, COLONEL TIGON 
WARH 1-FB 
WARH 8/2-FB 
GENE 5-FB 
WARH 1 
WARH 2 
WARH 3 
WARH 4 
WARH 5 
WARH 8/2 
WARH 8/3-FB 
WARH 8/3 
KOP2 6 
KOP2 7 
KOP2 8 
KOP2 9 
WARH 6 
WARH 7 
WARH 8 
WARH 9 
WARH 9/2-FB 
WARH 9/2 
WARH 10 
MTW 1 
MTW 2 
DHII2 5 
WARH 11 
DHII2 5 pg 20 panel 2 ~ WARH 11 pg. 7 ~ MTW 2 pg 21 panel 3-4 
WARH 11 pg 8 panel 1 
MTW 3 pg 10 panel 3 ~ WARH 11 pg 8 panel 3 
MTW 3 pg 10 panel 4 
WARH 11pg 9-23 
MTW 3 pg 18 
WARH 12 
WARH 13 
WARH 14 
WARH:BD 1 
WARH:BD 2 
DG 1 
DG 2 
DG 3 
DG 4 

LIGHTFOOT 
C:GENE 1 

LIRA 
DHII2 9 

LOND 
KEY 2 
KEY 3 

LORD PROTECTOR OF LIONHEART 
DHII2 6 
DHII2 7 
DHII2 8 

LORSON 
DHII2 13 
DHII2 14 
DHII2 15 

LOTUN 
DHII2 9 

LYNX II 
WARH:BD 1 
WARH:BD 2 

MLISH 
DIECUT 1 
DIECUT 2 
DIECUT 3 

MAGPIE 
KOP2 3 
KOP2 4 
KOP2 5 
KOP2 14 
KOP2 15 

MAGRETH 
MMKP 10 

MAINSTREAM 
DMVG 1 

MALEKYTH 
KOP2 6-FB 
KOP2 7 
KOP2 8 
KOP2 9 

MARWAN, KRISTA 
DM VG 2 

MASTER KEY 
WARH 1 /2 
WARH 3 
SR 1/2-FB 
WARH 4 
MTW 1 
WARH 13 
WARH 14 

MCBRIDE, LEONA 
WARH 1 /2 
WARH 2 
WARH 2/2 
WARH 3 
WARH 4 
WARH 5 
WARH 8/3-FB 
WARH 7 
WARH 8 
WARH 9 
WARH 9-FB 
WARH 10 
MTW 1 
MTW 2 
DHII2 5 
WARH 11 
DHII2 5 pg 20 panel 2 ~ WARH 11 pg. 7 ~ MTW 2 pg 21 panel 3-4 
MTW 3 Pg 9 panel 5 
WARH 11 pg 8 panel 3 
MTW pg 10 panel 4 
WARH 11 pgs. 9-23 
MTW 3 pg. 18 
WARH 12 
WARH 13 
WARH 14 
WARH:BD 1 
WARH:BD 2 

MEADOWS, BYSSHE 
WARH 8/3 
MMKP 7 

MEGAIRA 
BT 1 
BT 2 
BT 3-FB 
BT 3 
BT 4 

MENDEL 
BA 1 
BA 3-FB 

MERRICK, DOCTOR SAMUEL 
GD 1-FB 
GD 1 
GD 2-FB 
GD 2 
GD 3 
GD 4 
GENE 4 

METAMORPH 
MMKP 12-FB 
MMKP 12 

METHINX 
DHII2 6 
DHII2 7 
DHII2 8 

MINION/DEATHS HEAD II/DEATHS HEAD/HOOD 
DHIIODC 2-FB 
DHII 1 
DHII1 ~ DHII2 9 
DHII 1 
DHII2 9 
DHII1 ~ DHII2 9 
DHII2 9 
DHII 1 
DHII2 9 
DHII 1 
DHII 2 
DHII 3 
DHII 4 
BA 1 
BA 3-FB 
BA 2 
BA 3 
WARH 5 
WARH 6 
WARH 7 
DHII2 1 
DHII2 2 
DHII2 3 
DHII2 4 
MTW 1 
MTW 2 
DHII2 5 
MTW 2 pg 21 panel 1 
WARH 11 pg 6 
DHII2 5 pg 20 panel 1 ~ WARH 11 pg 7 panel 1 ~ MTW pg 21 panel 2 
DHII2 5 pg 20 panel 2 ~ WARH 11 pg. 7 ~ MTW 2 pg 21 panel 3-4 
MTW 3 pg 9 panel 5 
WARH 11 pg 8 panel 1 
MTW 3 pg 9, panels 1-2 
WARH 11 pg 8, panels 2-3 
MTW pg 10, panel 4 
WARH 11 pg 8, panel 4 
WARH 11 pgs. 9-23 
MTW 3 pg 18-20 
MTW 4 
DHII2 6 
DHII2 7 
DHII2 8 
DHII2 9 
BT 1 
BT 2 
BT 3 
BT 4 
BT2 1 
BT2 2 
BT2 3 
BT2 4 
DHII2 10 
DHII2 11 
DHII2 12 
DHIIODC 1 
DHIIODC 2 
SR 1 
KOP2 13 
KOP2 14 
KOP2 15 
DA 13 
DA 14 
DA 15 
DA 16 
MMKP 12 
DG 1 
DG 2 
DG 3 
DG 4 
D3 2 
D3 3 
D3 4 
DM 1 
IDH 1 
IDH 2 
IDH 3 
IDH 4 
IDH 5 
IDH 6 
IDH 7 
IDH 8 
IDH 9 
IDH 10-BTS 
IDH 11 
IDH 12 
DHII2 13 
DHII2 14 
DHII2 15 
DW 1 
DW 4 
DHII2 16 
DHII2 14/2-FB 
DHGOLD 
DHII2 14/2 

MISHA 
WARH 8/2-FB 
WARH 1 
WARH 1 /2 
WARH 2 
WARH 3 
WARH 4 
WARH 5 
WARH 8/3-FB 
WARH 8/3 
KOP2 6 
KOP2 7 
KOP2 8 
KOP2 9 
WARH 6 
WARH 7 
WARH 8 
WARH 9 
WARH 9-FB 
WARH 10 
MTW 1 
MTW 2 
DHII2 5 
WARH 11 
MTW 3 
WARH 12 
WARH 13 
WARH 14 
WARH:BD 1 
WARH:BD 2 


MOTORMOUTH/ HARLEY DAVIS 
MM 1 
MM 2 
MM 3 
MM 4 
MM 5 
MMKP 6 
MMKP 7 
MMKP 8 
MMKP 9 
MTW 2 
MTW 3 
MTW 4 
BT 1 
BT 4 
MMKP 10 
MMKP 11 
MMKP 12-FB 
MMKP 12 
MMKP 12/2 
DG 1 
DG 2 
DG 3 
DG 4 
H2 408 
H2 409 

MULLARKEY, DOCTOR OONAGH/OONAGH TIEQUE 
C:GENE 1-FB (1977) 
C:GENE 2-FB (1978) 
C:GENE 3-FB (1978) 
GENE 5-FB (1985) 
MM 4/2 (1987) 
KEY 1 (1988) 
KEY 2 
KEY 4 
MM 1 
MM 2 
MM 3 
C:GENE 1 
C:GENE 2 
C:GENE 3 
C:GENE 4 
MMKP 6 
MMKP 7 
MMKP 8 
PLASMER 3-FB 
PLASMER 1 
PLASMER 2 
PLASMER 3 
PLASMER 4 
GENE 2 
GENE 3 
GENE 4 
GENE 5 

NECKER, DOCTOR EVELYN CLARICE SARAH 
DW 1 
D3 1-FB 
DW 1 
DW 3 
DW4 
DHII 1 
DHII2 9 
DHII1 ~ DHII2 9 
DHII 1 
DHII 2 
DHII 3 
DHII 4 
D3 1 
D3 4 
DHII2 2 
DHII2 3 
DHII2 5 
DHII2 6 
DHII2 7 
DHII2 8 
DHII2 10 
DHII2 11 
DHII2 12 
MMKP 12-BTS 

NOAH 
DHII2 6 
DHII2 7 

NOON 
DHII2 14/2-FB 
DHGOLD 

OAK, MAJOR 
DHII 3 
DHII2 6 
DHII2 7 
DHII2 8 
DHGOLD-BTS 

OTOMO, TAKASHEI 
HA 2-BTS 
GD 1 
GD 2 
GD 3 
GD 4 

PACER/CARLOS DESILVA 
GD 1-FB 
GD 1 
GD 2 
GD 3 
GD 4 
GENE 3 
GENE 4 

PANTHER/CORRINE 
GD 1-FB 
GD 1 

PEREZ 
WARH 8/2-FB 
WARH 1 
WARH 1 /2 
WARH 2 
WARH 4 
WARH 5 
WARH 8/3-FB 
WARH 7 
WARH 8 
WARH 9 
WARH 10 

PERMAFROST 
DG 3 

PHAEDRA 
DHII 1 
DHII2 2-BTS 
DHII2 3-BTS 
DHII2 4 
DHGOLD 
DHII2 14/2-BTS 

PIECES 
MMKP 7 

PLASMER/OONAGH MULLARKEY II 
PLASMER 1 
PLASMER 2 
PLASMER 3 
PLASMER 4 

PLASTIQUE 
MMKP 7 

PRIME EVIL 
C:GENE 3-FB 
C:GENE 1 
C:GENE 2 
C:GENE 3 
C:GENE 4 

PRITCHARD 
PLASMER 1 
PLASMER 2 
PLASMER 3 
PLASMER 4 

PRIZZI 
KOP2 6 
KOP2 7 
KOP2 8 
KOP2 9 

PSI-KEY 
DIGI 1 
DIGI 2 
DIGI 3 
DIGI 4 

PSYPHON 
DHII2 14/2 

PURGE/PAXTON <-Note this Purge should be the 1st one, and the other Purges listed in the MCP should be renumbered. 
DIGI 1 
DIGI 2 
DIGI 3 
DIGI 4 

QAAR GHOTH 
MMKP 10-FB 
MMKP 10 

RAKULON 
MMKP 11 

RAZZAKAN 
MMKP 10 

RIDGE 
KEY 1 
KEY 2 
KEY 3 
KEY 4 
C:GENE 1 
C:GENE 2 
C:GENE 3 
C:GENE 4 
GD 2 
GENE 1 
GENE 2 
GENE 3 
GENE 4 
GENE 5 
GENE 6 
DMVG 1 
DM VG 2 

RIKSKATH 
KOP2 7 
KOP2 8 

RITINSKI 
DA 7 
DA 8 

ROADIE 
SR 1 
SR 2 
SR 3 
SR 4 

ROMEO 
DA 13 
DA 15 
DA 16 

ROOK 
MMKP 8 
MMKP 9 
SR 2 
SR 3 
SR 4 

SABRA II 
MMKP 10 

SAMIRA 
KEY 1 
KEY 2 
KEY 4 

SANTA 
DIECUT 1 
DIECUT 2 
DIECUT 3 
DIECUT 4 

SAPPHIRE 
DA 9 
DA 11 
DA 12 
DA 16 

SERENE MIAMI 
DHII2 7 
DHII2 8 
DHII2 10 
DHII2 11 
DHII2 12 

SHIFT 
KEY 1 
KEY 2 
KEY 3 
KEY 4 
C:GENE 1 
C:GENE 2 
C:GENE 3 
C:GENE 4 
GD 2 
GENE 1 
GENE 2 
GENE 3 
GENE 4 
GENE 5 
GENE 6 
DMVG 1 
DM VG 2 

SHRAPNEL 
GENE 2 
GENE 3 
GENE 4 
GENE 6 

SHRIKE 
WARH:BD 1 
WARH:BD 2 

SIGNAL 
HA 5 
DA 13 
DA 14 
DA 16 

SKIRE 
KOP2 12 

SMART 
DHII2 10 
DHII2 11 
DHII2 12 

SMITH 
BT 2 
BT 3-FB 
BT 3 
BT 4 
GUN 2-FB 
GUN 3 
GUN 4 
GUN 5 
GUN 6 

SMITHERS, JACK 
PLASMER 3-FB 
PLASMER 1 
PLASMER 2 
PLASMER 3 
PLASMER 4 

SORROW, ZACHARY 
MMKP 11 

SPIRIT 
DM 2 
DM 3 
DM 4 
(She later appears in Annihilation: Ronan) 

SPORR 
C:GENE 1 
GENE 1 

SPRATT 
 
DHII 2 
DHII 3 

STEALTH/ELIZ A CLARE NECKER 
DHII2 10 
DHII2 11 
DHII2 12 

STERNWOOD 
KOP2 2 
GD 1 
GD 2 
GD 3 
GD 4 

STINGER 
KEY 1 
KEY 2 
KEY 3 
KEY 4 
C:GENE 1 
C:GENE 2 
C:GENE 3 
C:GENE 4 
GD 2 
GENE 1 
GENE 2 
GENE 3 
GENE 4 
GENE 5 
GENE 6 
DMVG 1 
DM VG 2 

STRANGER 
SR 1 
SR 2 
SR 3 
SR 4 

SUNDER II 
DG 2 
DG 3 

SUPERCONDUCTOR 
DG 2 
DG 3 
SUYIN 
GD 2 
GD 3 

SWITCHB LADE 
DHII2 10 
DHII2 11 
DHII2 12 

TAMAYOSHI, KAORI 
BA 2 

TANAKYTH 
KOP2 8 

TANUTA UMBOTHA 
KOP2 2 
GD 1 
GD 2 
GD 3 
GD 4 

TASKER 
BT 2 
BT 3 
BT 4 

TATTOO/TUDO 
GENE 5-FB 
GENE 2 
GENE 3 
GENE 4 
GENE 5 
GENE 6 

TERMAGARIA 
BT2 4-FB 
BT2 3 
BT2 4 

TERMAGENT 
BT 1 
BT 2 
BT 3-FB 
BT 3 
BT 4 

TIME GUARDIAN 
KEY 1-FB 
KEY 1 
KEY 2 
KEY 3 
KEY 4 
MMKP 9 
MTW 4 
MMKP 12 
DG 1 
DG 3 
DCVGF 1-FB-BTS 
DCVGF 1 
DCVGF 2 

TOWNSEND, MARIANNE 
DA 7 
DA8 

TOWNSEND, SARAH 
DA 7 
DA 8 

TRAVERS, COL. 
DCVGF 1 
DCVGF 2 

TRUVISOR 
DG 2 
DG 3 
DG 4 

TUCK 
DHII 3 
DHII 4 
WARH 5 
WARH 6 
WARH 7 
DHII2 1 
DHII2 2 
DHII2 3 
DHII2 4 
DHII2 6 
DHII2 7 
DHII2 8 
DHII2 9 
BT 1 
BT 4 
BT2 1 
BT2 2 
BT2 3 
BT2 4 
DHII2 10 
DHII2 11 
DHII2 12 
DHIIODC 1 
DHIIODC 2 
IDH 1 
IDH 2 
IDH 3 
IDH 4 
IDH 5 
IDH 6 
IDH 7 
IDH 8 
IDH 9 
IDH 10 
IDH 11 
IDH 12 
DHII2 13 
DHII2 15 
DHII2 14/2-FB 
DHGOLD 

TWINKLE/OLIVIA DE DIAMOND 
DW 3 
DW4-FB 
DW 4 

TYR III/MARC DEVLIN 
GD 1-FB 
GD 1 
GD 2 
GD 3 
GD 4 
GENE 3 
GENE 4 

ULTRA-MARINE/MAJOR KITH NASCA 
DG 1 
DG 2 
DG 3 
DG 4 

VENEER/VNEER 
DIECUT 1 
DIECUT 2 
DIECUT 3 
DIECUT 4 

VESPER 
KEY 1 
KEY 2 
KEY 3 
KEY 4 
C:GENE 1 
C:GENE 2 
C:GENE 3 
C:GENE 4 
GD 2 
GENE 1 
GENE 2 
GENE 3 
GENE 4 
GENE 5 
GENE 6 
DMVG 1 
DM VG 2 

VORIN 
SR 1/2-FB 
SR 1 
SR 2 
SR 3 
SR 4 

WADLOW 
DHII2 5 
DHII2 6 
DHII2 7 

WAVEPYKE, WILL 
DHII2 6 
DHII2 7 

WINSTANLEY, LORD 
GD 2 
GD 3 
GD 4 

WRAITHCHILD/PHILLIP ROTH 
DHII2 1 
DHII2 2 
DHII2 3 
DHII2 4 

X-BEAST 
DIECUT 1 
DIECUT 2 
DIECUT 3 
DIECUT 4 

XENA 
DA 9 
DA 11 
DA 12 
DA 16 

YORRICK 
DHII2 6 
DHII2 7 
DHII2 8 

XL5 
WARH 8/2-FB 
WARH 8 

ZAHN 
DHII2 9 

ZUTU 
BA 6 
BA 7

			*	*	*

Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:29 pm 
By Dhall

Characters already in MCP: 

ALBION/PETER HUNTER 
 
KOP 18 
**KOP2 1 
**KOP2 2 
**KOP2 3 
**KOP2 4 
**KOP2 5 
**KOP2 6 
**KOP2 7 
**KOP2 8 
[KOP2 9] Remove Brackets 
M/CP 122/4 
[KOP2 10] <-Remove Brackets 
**KOP2 11 
**MTW 1 
** KOP2 12 
**MTW 3 
**MTW 4 
**KOP2 13 
**KOP2 14 
**KOP2 15 
**DG 1 
**DG 2 
**DG 3 
**DG 4 
**DCVGF 1-FB 
**DCVGF 1 
**DCVGF 2 

ANGEL III 
 
IW 6 
**DHII2 1 
UX 291 
UX 292 
UX 293 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
UX 294 
 

AURORA 
 
AF 127 
IC 6 
AF 127 
**DM 1 
**DM 2 
**DMVG 1-FB 
**DM 2 
AF 128 
AF 129 
AF 130 
 

BARON BLOOD/JOHN FALSWORTH 
INV 9-FB 
INV 8-FB 
MG:I 2-FB 
INV 9-FB 
{INV 7} 
INV 8 
INV 9 
INV 39 
INV 40 
INV 41 
CA3 20/2-FB-BTS 
CA3 20/2 
CA3 21/2 
N@ 2/2 
CA 253 
CA 254 
**KOP2 10 
**KOP2 11 

BEAST 
 
IW 4 
MK3 44 
IW 6 
**HA 1 
**HA 2 
**HA 4 
**HA 5 
**DHII2 1 
**DHII2 2 
**DHII2 3 
**DHII2 4 
X 12 
X 13 
XCAL 57 
XCAL 58 
**DA 9 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
XF 84 
X 14 
 
UX 304 
UX 306 
X 25 
W2 75 
**DIECUT 1 
**DIECUT 2 
X@ 2 
X@ 2/2 
[GAM4 10-FB] 
A 368 
X 26 
 


BISHOP 
 
UX 291 
UX 292 
UX 293 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
UX 294 

BLACKHEART 
 
HOD 
**WARH 1 /2 
**WARH 2 
**WARH 3 
**WARH 4 
**WARH 5 
**KOP2 7 
**KOP2 8 
**WARH 7 
**WARH 8 
**WARH 9 
**WARH 10 
GRWP:DD 
 

BLACK KNIGHT V 
. 
A 347 
CA 401 
**KOP2 2 
**KOP2 3 
NW 26 
A 350/2 
IW 1 
 
A 350 
A 351 
A 352 
A 353 
A 354 
A 355 
A 356 
A 357 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
**MTW 4 
T 458 
A 358 
A 359 
A 360 
A 361 
A 362 
A 363 
A 364 
A 365 
A 366 
SLEEP 26 
SLEEP 27 
H2 403 
H2 404 
NW 33 
NW 34 
**PLASMER 2 
**PLASMER 3 
**PLASMER 4 
IC 1 
 

BLACK PANTHER 
 
A 335 
A 336 
A 337 
A 338 
A 339 
BP3 6-FB 
BP3 11-FB 
**BA 5 
**BA 6 
**BA 7 
A 356 
BP3 35-FB-BTS 
XCAL 59 
XCAL 60 

BLACK WIDOW 
 
A 350 
A 351 
A 355 
A 356 
MK3 50 
A 357 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
A 358 
A 359 
A 360 
A 360/2 
 

BOOMER/TABITHA SMITH/BOOM-BOOM <-add Boom-Boom 
 
XFOR 5 
W:EVIL 
XFOR 6 
XFOR 7 
XFOR 8 
XFOR 9 
XFOR 10 
XFOR@ 1/3 
**WARH 4 
**WARH 5 
XFOR 11 
XFOR 12 
XFOR 13 
XFOR 14 
XFOR 15 
 

BOX IV 
 
AF 110 
AF 111-BTS 
AF 125/2 
AF 126 
**DM 1 
**DM 2 
**DMVG 1-FB 
**DM 2 
**DMVG 1 
AF 130 
 

CABLE 
 
XFOR 5 
CA 406 
CA 407 
XFOR 6 
XFOR 7 
XFOR 8 
XFOR 9 
XFOR 10 
XFOR@ 1/3 
**SR 1 /2-FB 
**WARH 4 
**WARH 5 
XFOR 11 
XFOR 12 
XFOR 13 
XFOR 14 
XFOR 15 
**MMKP 6 
**MMKP 7 
**MMKP 8 
**MMKP 9 
**SR 1 
**SR 2 
**SR 3 
**SR 4 
C 1 
C 2 
X 14 
XFOR 16 
UX 295 

CAESAR, JULIUS 
DRSTR3 33 
**MMKP 9 

CANNONBALL 
 
XFOR 6 
XFOR 7 
XFOR 8 
XFOR 9 
XFOR 10 
XFOR 11 
XFOR@ 1/3 
**WARH 4 
**WARH 5 
XFOR 12 
XFOR 13 
XFOR 14 
XFOR 15 
 


CAPTAIN AMERICA 
A@ 21/2 
**DHII 4 
CA 398 
AWC 80 
Q 32 
WM 2 7 
A 345 
 
ASM 366 
AWC 88 
CA 408/3 
CA 409 
CA 410 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
**MTW 4 
XCAL 59 
XCAL 60 
T 458 
CA 411 
CA 412 
 
SECDEF 6 
SECDEF 7 
SECDEF 8 
**PLASMER 3 
**PLASMER 4 
SSWP 15 
CA 419 
IC 1 

CAPTAIN BRITAIN 
 
XCAL 49 
XCAL 50 
XCAL 51 
XCAL 52 
XCAL 53 
XCAL:XX CROSSING 
S-M 25-FB 
S-M 25 
XCAL 54-FB 
XCAL 54 
**DA 6 
XCAL 55 
XCAL 56 
XCAL 57 
XCAL 58 
**MTW 2 
XCAL 59 
XCAL 60 
**PLASMER 2 
**PLASMER 3 
**PLASMER 4 
XCAL 61 
XCAL 62 
 

COLOSSUS III 
 
IW 6 
FF 370 
IW 6 ~ FF 370 
IW 6 
**DHII2 1 
UX 291 
UX 292 
UX 293 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
**MTW 4 
UX 294 
 

COPYCAT/VANESSA GERALDINE CARLYSLE 
 
XFOR 5 
XFOR 6 
XFOR 7 
XFOR 9 
XFOR 10 
XFOR@ 1/3 
**WARH 4 
**WARH 5 
XFOR 11 
XFOR 12 

CROWN, ADAM 
KOP 14 
KOP 15 
KOP 16 
KOP 17 
KOP 18 
**KOP2 1 
**KOP2 2 
**KOP2 3 
**KOP2 4 
**KOP2 5 
**KOP2 6 
**KOP2 7 
**KOP2 8 
[KOP2 9] <-Remove Brackets 
M/CP 122/4 
[KOP2 10] <-Remove Brackets 
**KOP2 11 
** KOP2 12 
**MTW 3 
**KOP2 13 
**KOP2 14 
**KOP2 15 

CYCLOPS 
 
FF 370 
IW 6 ~ FF 370 
IW 6 
A 350 
A 351 
**HA 1 
**HA 2 
**HA 3 
**HA 4 
**HA 5 
**WARH 8 
**WARH 9 
**DHII2 1 
**DHII2 2 
**DHII2 3 
**DHII2 4 
X 12 
X 13 
XCAL 57 
XCAL 58 
**DA 9 
**DA 10 
**MTW 1 
**DA 10 
**MTW 1 
**DA 10 
**MTW 2 
**DA 11 
**DA 12 
UX 294 
XF 84 
 

DEATHLOK 
DLOK2 17 
DLOK2 18 
DLOK2 19 
DLOK2 20 
DLOK2 21 
**DIGI 1 
**DIGI 2 
**DIGI 3 
DLOK2 22 
DLOK2 23 
DLOK2 24 
DLOK2 25 

DIAMOND LIL 
 
AF 122 
AF 125/2 
AF 126 
**DMVG 1 
AF 130 
 

DOCTOR DOOM 
 
IW 5 
**SR 2 
FF 371 
FF 372-BTS 
FF 373 
FF 374 
FF 375 
 

DOCTOR STRANGE 
 
DRSTR3 48 
DRSTR3 49 
SLEEPHS 
DRSTR3 49 
DRSTR3 50 
H:PL 2 
H2 399 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
**MTW 4 
FF 374 
WIW 14 
 

DUGAN, DUM-DUM 
 
NF3 37 
NF3 42 
NF3 43 
NF3 44 
** MM 1 
**MM 5-BTS 
DLOK2 20 
NF3 45 
NF3 46 
NF3 47 
SSWP 17 
X 26 
 

FERAL 
 
XFOR 5 
CA 406-BTS 
CA 407 
XFOR 6 
XFOR 7 
XFOR 9 
XFOR 10 
XFOR@ 1/3 
**WARH 4 
**WARH 5 
XFOR 11 
XFOR 12 
XFOR 13 
XFOR 14 
XFOR 15 
 

FURY, NICK 
 
CA3 32-FB 
GAM3 10 
SGTF 70 
SGTF 74 
WX2 14-FB 
**MM 5-FB 
SGTF@ 1 
 
NF3 44 
M/CP 120/2 
**MM 1 
**MM 2 
**WARH 2 
**WARH 3 
**MM 3 
**MM 4 
**MM 5 
XCAL 56 
**MMKP 6 
**MMKP 7 
**MMKP 9 pg 7 panels 1-2 
**MTW 1 pg 1 panel 1 
**MTW 1 pg 1 panel 2 ~ MMKP 9 pg 7 panel 3 
**MTW 1 pg 1 panel 4 
**MTW 1 pg 1 panel 4 ~ MMKP 9 pg 7 panel 4 
**MMKP 9 pg 7 panels 5-6 
**MTW 1 pg 1 panels 5-7 
**MMKP 9 pg 8 panels 1-2 
**MTW 1 pg 1 panels 8-9 
**MMKP 9 pg 8 panels 3-4 
**MTW 1 pg 1 panels 10-12, pg 2 panels 1-5 
**MMKP 9 pg 10,11,15 
**MTW 1 pg 2 panels 6-8 
**MMKP 9 pg 16 ~ MTW pg 2 panel 9 
**MTW 1 pg 2 panel 10 
**MMKP 9 pg 17 panels 1-3 
**MTW 1 pg 2 panel 11 
**MMKP 9 pg 17 panels 4-6 
**MTW 1 page 3 
**MMKP 9 pg 17 panels 7-8 
**MTW 1 pgs 4-5 
**MMKP 9 pg 23 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 4 
DLOK2 17 
DLOK2 19 
DLOK2 20 
DLOK2 21 


GAMBIT 
 
W 6 
**DHII2 1 
**DHII2 2 
**DHII2 3 
**DHII2 4 
X 12 
X 13 
XCAL 57 
XCAL 58 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
**MTW 4 
UX 294 
 

GHOST RIDER II 
 
SOV 9 
SOV 10 
**MTW 2 
SOV 11 
GR3 39 
SOV 12 
NS 10 
SOV 13 
MSU 3 
SOV 14 
**GUN 1 
**GUN 2 
GR3 42 
 

GHOST RIDER III 
 
GR3 38 
M/HOL 1993/5 
SOV 9 
SOV 10 
NS 7 
M/CP 123/3 
M/CP 124/3 
M/CP 125/3 
M/CP 126/3 
M/CP 127/3 
M/CP 128/3 
M/CP 129/3 
M/CP 130/3 
**MTW 2 
**SR 2 
FF 374 
SOV 11 
PWJ 57 
PWJ 58 
 
SOV 13 
MSU 3 
GR@ 1 
GR@ 1/3 
M/CP 137/3 
M/CP 138/3 
M/CP 139/3 
M/CP 140/3 
M/CP 141/3 
M/CP 142/3 
**GUN 1 
**GUN 2 
GR3 41 
 

GRACE, FRANCESCA LEXLEY 
. 
KOP 18 
**KOP2 1 
**KOP2 2 
**KOP2 3 
**KOP2 4 
**KOP2 5 
**KOP2 6 
**KOP2 7 
**KOP2 8 
[KOP2 9] <-Remove Brackets 
M/CP 122/4 
[KOP2 10] <-Remove Brackets 
**KOP2 11 
** KOP2 12 
**MTW 3 
**MTW 4 
**KOP2 13 
**KOP2 14 
**KOP2 15 
**DCVGF 1 
**DCVGF 2 

GREEN KNIGHT 
KOP 8-FB 
{KOP 1} 
KOP 2 
KOP 3 
KOP 4 
KOP 6 
KOP 11 
KOP 12 
KOP 17 
KOP 18 
**KOP2 6 
**MTW 1 
** KOP2 12 

HAVOK 
 
IW 6 
XF 79 
XF 80 
XF 81 
XF 82 
XF 83 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 3 
XF 84 
 

HERCULES 
 
A 354 
A 355 
A 356 
A 357 
**MTW 1 
**BT 2 
**BT 3-FB 
**BT 3 
**BT 4 
T 458 
A 358 
A 359 
 

HULK 
 
H2 397 
H2 398 
H2 399-FB 
H2 399 
H2 400 
H2 401 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
**MTW 4 
**SR 1 
H2 402-FB 
H2 402-FB 
H2 402 
H2 403 
H2 404 
H2 405 
H2 406 
H2 407 
**BT2 1 
**BT2 2 
**BT2 3 
**BT2 4 
FF 374 
S-H2 56 
S-H2 57 
IC 1 
WIW 18 
IC 2 
 

HUMAN TORCH 
 
FF 360 
NW 16 
NW 17 
S-M 23 
M/CP 164/2 
FF 361 
**DHII 2 
**DHII 4 
FF 362 
 
IW 6 
IW 6 ~ FF 370 
FF 370 
FF 370 ~ IW 6 ~ MK3 44 
FF 370 
MK3 44 
FF@ 25 
A@ 21 
H2 399 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
FFU 3 
NW 33 
NW 34 
 

HURRICANE II/ALBERT POTTER ?ADD REAL NAME 
CB 7-FB 
{CB 3} 
CB 4 
CB 5 
CB 6 
CB 7 
**GD 1 
**GD2 
**GD 3 
**GD 4 

ICEMAN 
 
IW 5 
WM2 15 
IW 6 
**HA 1 
**HA 2 
**HA 4 
**HA 5 
UX 291 
UX 292 
UX 293 
**DA 9 
**DA 10 
**MTW 1 
**DA 10 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
UX 294 
X 14 
 

INVISIBLE WOMAN 
 
FF 360 
NW 16 
NW 17 
S-M 23 
M/CP 164/2 
FF 361 
**DHII 2 
**DHII 4 
FF 362 
 
IW 6 
FF 370 ~ IW 6 
FF 370 ~ IW 6 ~ MK3 44 
MK3 44 
FF 370 
MK3 44 
FF 370 
FF@ 25 
A@ 21 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 4 
FFU 3 
FF 371 
 

IRON MAN 
AWC 79 
**DHII 4 
AWC 80 
Q 32 
A 345 
IM 278 
CA 399 
IM 279 
CA 400 
WM2 9 
A 347 
CA 401 
**KOP2 1 
**KOP2 2 
**KOP2 3 
**KOP2 4 
CAGE 7 
CAGE 8 
IM 280 
IM 281 
IM 282 
IM 283 
IM 284-FB 
**WARH 3 
**MM 3-BTS 
IW 1 
FF 370 
AWC 84 
AWC 85 
AWC 86 
AWC@ 7/4 

IRON MAN IV/JAMES R. "JIM" "RHODEY" RHODES 
IM 275 
IM 275/2 
IM 275 
IM@ 12/3 
IM@ 12 
**KOP2 1 
**KOP2 2 
**KOP2 3 
**KOP2 4 
IM 280 
IM 281 
IM 282 
IM 283 
**WARH 3 
DHAWK@ 1 
AWC@ 7 
 

JONES, RICK 
 
H2 400 
H2 401 
**SR 1 
H2 402-FB 
H2 402 
H2 403 
H2 404 
 

JUBILEE 
 
X 11 
MK3 41 
**WARH 8 
**WARH 9 
**DHII2 1 
**DHII2 2 
**DHII2 3 
**DHII2 4 
X 12 
X 13 
XCAL 57 
XCAL 58 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
X 14 
 

KA-ZAR 
 
UX 275 
IMSVS 2/2 
N 14 
N 17 
N 18 
N 21 
**C:GENE 3 
**C:GENE 4 
CA 414 
CA 415 
CA 416 
CA 417 
 

LORD CHAOS 
 
IG 6 
DAMCON3 3 
DAMCON3 4 
WIW 1 
**DHII2 4-FB 
**WARH 7 
WCHRON 2 
FF@ 27/2 
Q 50 
A:CQ 2 
ASM 503 

MARVEL GIRL/JEAN GREY 
 
FF 370 
IW 6 
UX 291 
UX 292 
UX 293 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
**MTW 4 
UX 294 
 

MASTER ORDER 
 
IG 6 
DAMCON3 4 
WIW 1 
**DHII2 4-FB 
**WARH 7 
WCHRON 2 
FF@ 27/2 
Q 50 
A:CQ 2 

MEPHISTO 
GR2 77-FB 
**HA 1 
**DA 14-FB 
MG:I 1-FB 
MG:I 2-FB 
MG:I 4-FB 
 
441-BTS 
T 442-BTS 
T 442/3 
T 443 
**BA 1-BTS 
**BA 3-FB-BTS 
**BA 3 
**SR 4-FB 
**HA 1 
**HA 3 
**HA 4 
**WARH 6 
**WARH 10 
**DA 9 
MG:I 4-FB 
T 450 
T 451 

MISTER FANTASTIC 
 
FF 360 
NW 16 
NW 17 
M/CP 97/2 
S-M 23 
M/CP 164/2 
FF 361 
**DHII 2 
**DHII 4 
FF 362 
 
IW 6 
FF 370 ~ IW 6 
FF 370 ~ IW 6 ~ MK3 44 
MK3 44 
FF 370 
MK3 44 
MK3 45 
PPTSS 196-BTS 
FF 370 
FF@ 25 
A@ 21 
H2 399 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
S-H2 52 
FFU 3 
FF 371 
FF 372-BTS 
FF 373 
 

NETWORK NINA 
 
NF3 27 
NF3 28 
NF3 29 
NF3 30 
** MM 1 
** MM 2 
**MM 3 
**MM 5 
**MMKP 6 
NF3 45 
NF3 47 
XFOR 20 
XFOR 21 
XFOR 22 

NEVILLE, KATE 
 
NF3 27 
NF3 30 
NF3 31 
NF3 42 
NF3 43 
**MM 2 
**MM 3 
**MM 4 
**MM 5 
**MMKP 6 
NF3 46 
NF3 47 

NIGHTCRAWLER 
 
M/CP 101 
M/CP 102 
M/CP 103 
M/CP 104 
M/CP 105 
M/CP 106 
M/CP 107 
M/CP 108 
M/CP 110/2 
**DA 6 
XCAL 55 
XCAL 56 
XCAL 57 
XCAL 58 
**MTW 2 
XCAL 59 
XCAL 60 
 

NORTHSTAR 
 
IC 6 
AF 127 
SECDEF 11 
**DM 1 
**DM 2 
**DMVG 1-FB 
**DM 2 
AF 128 
AF 129 
AF 130 
NORTH 1 
 

MEGGAN 
 
XCAL 52 
XCAL 53 
XCAL:XX CROSSING 
S-M 25 
XCAL 54-FB 
XCAL 54 
**DA 6 
XCAL 55 
XCAL 56 
XCAL 57 
XCAL 58 
**MTW 2 
XCAL 59 
XCAL 60 
 

MULTIPLE MAN 
 
XF 79 
XF 80 
XF 81 
XF 82 
XF 83 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 3 
UX 294 
XF 84 
X 14 
 

PHAROAH RAMA-TUT 
[YA 2-FB] 
CA@ 11/4 (2:2 - 2:3)-FB 
{FF 19 (10:1 - 10:3)-FB} 
A 269 (3:2 - 3:3)-FB 
FF 19 (10:4)-FB 
WI?2 39 
AVF 9 (4:5)-FB 
FF 19 (10:5 - 10:6)-FB 
ROA 2 (11:1)-FB 
FF 19 (11:1)-FB 
ROA 2 (11:2 - 11:3)-FB 
FF 19 (11:2 - 11:3)-FB 
ROA 2 (11:4 - 12:3)-FB 
A 269 (3:5)-FB 
AVF 9 (5:1)-FB 
**KEY 1 
**KEY 2 
ROA 1 
ROA 2 
WCA2 20 
WCA2 21 

PIERCE, ALEXANDER GOODWIN 
 
NF3 27 
NF3 28 
NF3 29 
NF3 43 
**MM 2 
**MM 3 
**MM 5 
**MMKP 6 
DLOK2 19 
DLOK2 20 
DLOK2 21 
PUN/BW 
NF3 46 
NF3 47 
 

POLARIS 
 
IW 5 
WM2 15 
XF 79 
XF 80 
XF 82 
XF 83 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 3 
XF 84 
X 14 
XFOR 16 
 

PROFESSOR 
**SR 1 /2-FB 
**SR 1 
**SR 3 
**SR 4 
XFOR 20 
XFOR 21 
XFOR 22 
C2 3 
XFOR 25 
XFOR@ 2 
XCAL 71 
XFOR 29 

PROFESSOR XAVIER 
 
IW 6 
A 350 
A 351 
**HA 1 
**HA 2 
**HA 3-BTS 
**HA 4 
UX 291 
UX 292 
UX 293 
M/CP 117 
M/CP 118 
M/CP 119-BTS 
M/CP 120-BTS 
M/CP 121-BTS 
M/CP 122 
X 12 
X 13 
**DA 10 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
**MTW 4 
UX 294 
 
UX 307 
A 369 
**DHGOLD 1 
XFOR 27 
C2 6 
C2 7 
C2 8 
 

PSYLOCKE 
 
IW 6 
**HA 1 
**HA 2 
**HA 3 
**HA 4 
**HA 5 
X 12 
**WARH 9 
**DHII2 1 
**DHII2 2 
**DHII2 3 
**DHII2 4 
**DA 7 
**DA 8 
XCAL 55 
XCAL 56 
XCAL 57 
XCAL 58 
**DA 9 
**DA 10 
**MTW 1 
**DA 10 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
**MTW 4 
**DA 11 
**DA 12 
XF 84 
X 14 
XFOR 16 
UX 295 
XF 85 
X 15 
XF 86 
X 16 
XFOR 18 
**BT 1 
**BT 2 
**BT 3-FB 
**BT 3 
**BT 4 
W2 67 
W2 68 
X 17 
X 18 
X 19 
IC 1 
 

PUCK 
 
AF 127 
IC 6 
AF 127 
**DM 1 
**DM 2 
W2 76 
W2 77 
AF 129 
AF 130 
XF 116 
 

PUNISHER 
PUN2 68 
PUN2 69 
PUN2 70 
**MM 3 
**MM 4 
**MM 5 
**MMKP 6 
PUN2 71 
PUN:GI 1 
PUN:GI 2 
PUN@ 5 
.. 
PUN2 82 
PUN2 83 
PUN2 84 
**KEY 2 
**KEY 3 
PWZ 20 
PWZ 21 
PWZ 22 
** SUPERSOLDIERS 8 

QUEEN ELIZABETH II 
X:TF 1 
X:TF 2 
X:TF 3 
CB 37 
CB 38 
CB 39 
SSM&CB 231/2 
SSM&CB 232/2-BTS 
X:TF 3 
**DA 12 

QUICKSILVER 
 
IW 4 
CA 408/3 
A 350 
A 351 
XF 79 
XF 80 
XF 81 
XF 82 
XF 83 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 3 
UX 294 
XF 84 
 

RED LORD 
KOP 17 
KOP 18 
**KOP2 15 

RED SKULL II 
 
H2 402 
H2 403 
H2 404 
NF3 45 
SSWP 15-BTS 
**DIECUT 3 
**DIECUT 4 
CA 419 
CA 420 
CA 446-FB 
CA 437 
A 385 
A 386 
CA 440 
 

ROGUE 
 
FF 370 
IW 6 
WM2 15 
IW 6 
FF 370 
IW 6 
**HA 1 
**HA 2 
**HA 3 
**HA 4 
**HA 5 
X 12 
X 13 
**DHII2 1 
**DHII2 2 
**DHII2 3 
**DHII2 4 
XCAL 57 
XCAL 58 
**DA 9 
**DA 10 
**MTW 1 
**DA 10 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
UX 294 
XF 84 
 

SABRETOOTH 
 
X 6 
X 7 
UA 3 
UA 4 
W2 60 
W2 61 
W2 62 
W2 63 
W2 64 
**BT 2 
**BT 3 
**BT 4 
DHOLD 3 
DHOLD 4 
 

SASQUATCH 
 
C 5 
IC 6 
AF 127 
**DM 1 
**DM 2 
**DMVG 1-FB 
**DM 2 
AF 128 
AF 129 
AF 130 
 

SCARLET WITCH 
AWC 79 
WM2 5 
**DHII 4 
AWC 80 
WM2 7 
A 345 
 

SERSEI 
 
IW 1 
AF 110 
A 353 
A 354 
A 355 
A 356 
A 357 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
CA 411-BTS 
A 358 
A 359 
A 360 
A 361 
 

SHADOWCAT 
 
XCAL 52 
XCAL:XX CROSSING 
XCAL 54 
**DA 6 
XCAL 55 
XCAL 56 
XCAL 57 
XCAL 58 
**MTW 2 
XCAL 59 
XCAL 60 
 

SHATTERSTAR II 
 
XFOR 5 
W2 54 
CA 406 
XFOR 6 
XFOR 7 
XFOR 9 
XFOR 10 
XFOR@ 1/3 
**WARH 4 
**WARH 5 
XFOR 11 
XFOR 12 
XFOR 13 
XFOR 14 
XFOR 15 
 

SHE-HULK 
 
IW 6 
CA 408/3 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
M/CP 123/2 
M/CP 124/2 
M/CP 125/2 
M/CP 126/2 
S-H2 50-FB 
S-H2 50 
S-H2 51 
 

SILVER SURFER 
 
FF 370 
IW 6 
H@ 18/2 
N@ 2 
SS@ 5 
DRSTR@ 2 
DRSTR3 50 
**WARH 7 
**WARH 8 
SS3 70 
 
SS/W:R 1 
SS/W:R 2 
SS/W:R 3 
SS/W:R 4 
SECDEF 9 
SECDEF 10 
**PLASMER 3 
**PLASMER 4 
SS@ 6 
IC 1 
 

SPIDER-MAN 
 
PPTSS 94 
PPTSS 95 
M/TU 145 
**KOP2 6 
ASM 256 
VSS 1/2-FB 
ASM 256 
ASM 257 
ASM 258 
 
S-M 30 
S-M 31 
M/HOL 1992/3 
M/CP 120/4 
**KOP2 7 
**KOP2 8 
**KOP2 9 
ASM 368 
ASM 368/2 
ASM 369 
ASM 370 
ASM 372/2 
ASM 371 
ASM 372 
ASM 373 
ASM 374 
ASM 375 
**MTW 2 
FF 372 
FF 373 
ASM 375/2 
FF 374 
 
ASM 385 
WOSM 107 
WOSM 108 
WOSM 109 
ASM 385 
**DIECUT 1-BTS 
LFSM 1 
LFSM 2 
LFSM 3 
LFSM 4 
 

SPITFIRE 
 
N 19 
N 21 
N 23 
N@ 2/3 
N 27 
**KOP2 6 
**KOP2 10 
**KOP2 11 
NW 35 
NW 36-VO 
MG:I 1 
MG:I 2 
MG:I 3 
MG:I 4 
X:HC 3 
 

STORM 
 
IW 5 
IW 6 
FF 370 
IW 6 
**HA 1 
**HA 2 
**WARH 8 
**WARH 9 
UX 291 
UX 292 
UX 293 
**MTW 2 
UX 294 
XF 84 
 

STRONG GUY 
 
XF 81 
XF 82 
XF 83 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 3 
**MTW 4 
UX 294 
XF 84 
X 14 
 

SUNFIRE 
AWC 71 
AWC 74 
**BA 2 
UX 284 
UX 285 
UX 286 
W2 55 
W2 56 
W2 60 

THING 
 
NW 24 
M/CP 105/4 
M/CP 164/2 
FF 361 
**DHII 2 
**DHII 4 
FF 362 
 
IW 6 
FF 370 ~ IW 6 ~ MK3 44 
FF 370 
MK3 44 
FF 370 
FF@ 25 
A@ 21 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
S-H2 52 
FFU 3 
NW 33 
 

THOMAS, DAI 
 
XCAL 51 
**KOP2 5 
S-M 25-FB 
XCAL 54-FB 
XCAL 54 
XCAL 55 

THUNDERSTRIKE 
T@ 17/2 
A 343 
A 344 
**DHII 4 
A 345 
 
Q 42 
A 350 
A 351 
A 355 
A 356 
MK3 50 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
T 456 
T 457 
T 458 
T 459 

UNION JACK III/JOEY CHAPMAN 
 
KOP 18 
**KOP2 1 
**KOP2 2 
**KOP2 3 
**KOP2 4 
**KOP2 5 
**KOP2 6 
**KOP2 7 
**KOP2 8 
[KOP2 9] <-Remove Brackets 
M/CP 122/4 
[KOP2 10] <-Remove Brackets 
**KOP2 11 
**MTW 1 
** KOP2 12 
**MTW 3 
**KOP2 13 
**KOP2 14 
**KOP2 15 
TB 25 
X:HC 3 

VAKUME 
FF 186 
FF@ 14 
FF 223 
V&SW2 3 
V&SW2 5 
**HA 2 
**HA 3 
**HA 4 
A '00 

VINDICATOR/HEATHER HUDSON 
 
C 6 
AF 127 
**DM 1 
**DM 2 
**DMVG 1-FB 
**DM 2 
W2 76 
W2 77 
AF 128 
AF 129 
AF 130 
 

VISION 
 
A 355 
A 356 
MK3 50 
A 357 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
AWC 89 
AWC 90 
AWC 91 
 

WARPATH 
 
XFOR 5 
XFOR 6 
XFOR 7 
XFOR 9 
XFOR 10 
XFOR@ 1/3 
**WARH 4 
**WARH 5 
XFOR 11 
WM2 13 
Q 38 
XFOR 12 
XFOR 13 
XFOR 14 
XFOR 15 
 

WILD CHILD 
 
DHAWK 31 
WOSM 106 
AF 127/2 
AF 127 
**DM 1 
**DM 2 
**DMVG 1-FB 
**DM 2 
AF 129 
AF 130 
 

WOLVERINE 
 
UX 226 
UX 227 
UX 229 
UX 230 
UX 231 
**WARH 1 
M/CP 1 
 
M/CP 60 
M/CP 61 
S-H2 29 
**WARH 1-FB 
W2 24 
W2 25 
W2 26 
 
FF 370 
IW 6 
AWC 87 
AWC 88 
M/CP 117 
M/CP 118 
M/CP 119 
M/CP 120 
M/CP 121 
M/CP 122 
**HA 1 
**HA 2 
**HA 3 
**HA 4 
**HA 5 
X 12 
X 13 
**WARH 8 
**WARH 9 
**C:GENE 1 
**C:GENE 2 
**C:GENE 3 
**C:GENE 4 
**DHII2 1 
**DHII2 2 
**DHII2 3 
**DHII2 4 
XCAL 57 
XCAL 58 
**DA 9 
**DA 10 
**MTW 1 
**DA 10 
**MTW 2 
**MTW 3 
**MTW 4 
**DA 11 
**DA 12 
XF 84 
 
XFOR 18 
SECDEF 1-FB 
SECDEF 1 
SECDEF 2 
SECDEF 3 
**BT 1 
**BT 2 
**BT 3 
**BT 4 
FF 374 
W2 66-FB 
W2 66 
W2 67 
W2 68 

WOLFSBANE 
 
IW 4 
XF 94-FB 
XF 79 
XF 80 
XF 81 
XF 82 
XF 83 
**MTW 1 
**MTW 3 
XF 84 
X 14 
XFOR 16 
XFOR 17 
XF 86 
 

VALINOR 
 
A 343 
A 344 
**KOP2 2 
**KOP2 3 
IC 1 
IC 4 
IC 5 
A@ 22 
A 366/2 
N 60 

ZABU 
 
UX 275 
IMSVS 2/2 
N 14 
N 17 
N 18-BTS 
**C:GENE 3 
**C:GENE 4 
CA 415 
CA 416 


			*	*	*

Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:51 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
2) I have brief write-ups of all of these issues, but given how long just the character listings are, I'm not going to post them, unless someone REALLY wants to read them. 
<<<

Yes please!


Dhall wrote:
>>>
FURY, NICK 
 
CA3 32-FB 
GAM3 10 
SGTF 70 
SGTF 74 
WX2 14-FB 
**MM 5-FB
SGTF@ 1 
<<<

Is this during WWII or sometime after & before Korea? I would be interested in a write-up of this FlashBack, and any references in dialogue, narration, artwork, and page/panel ranges if it's during WWII. Hell, I'm still interested if it's after. 

Thanks!

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:07 pm 
By Dhall

The Fb in Motormouth #5, takes place in Berlin, 1945. "The Third Reich was crumblin', but bits of it still had teeth." 

Sgt. Fury and his unnamed driver are ordered to check out a morgue, that has a zombie S.S. Unit. 
Sgt. Fury and the Howling Commandos, who appear mostly in the distance, or with their backs turned (if you can pick out any specific people here, go for it. It would be hard.) enter the morgue, to find a zombie S.S. unit led by a necromancer, Algernon Crowe (later of Mys-Tech fame,) using the name Doctor Kroh. When Kroh tries to flee, Fury shoots him in the back, apparently killing him. Fury doesn't consider raising an undead army as sporting behavior. 

Fury and the commandos torch the morgue. 

End of flashback.

			*	*	*

Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:58 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thank you, Dave. I'm going to have to track down a copy of that this year at Chicagocon. 

MM 5-FB will have to occur before Fury loses his eye in Peacemaker 6, so here's a suggested placement among some other issues that haven't made it in yet: 

FURY, SGT. NICK 
... 
SGTF 108 (02/45) 
M/SPT 31 (3:2-3:5)-FB (03/45) 
NF3 30-FB 
M/SPT 31 (3:6)-FB 
*MM 5-FB (1945) 
CA: SL2 12-FB 
F: PM 3 
... 

Thanks again!"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:47 pm 
By Dhall

You're the expert, so ..... 

By the way, you might just want to pick up Motormouth/Motormouth & Killpower 1-9. Almost half the content of each issue is Nick Fury/SHIELD related.

			*	*	*

Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:14 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
You're the expert, so ..... 
<<<

Aw, shucks. Thanks!

You were right, though. MM 5-FB should go after WX2 14-FB & before SGTF@ 1. I just narrowed it down a bit. 

I didn't mention this earlier, because I'm still going through all of your suggested placements,(there's a lot!) but good job on this. Everything looks good so far, especially since this is a large group of closely related titles. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
By the way, you might just want to pick up Motormouth/Motormouth & Killpower 1-9. Almost half the content of each issue is Nick Fury/SHIELD related. 
<<<

You convinced me, they're now all on my search list for Chicagocon.

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:27 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
I didn't mention this earlier, because I'm still going through all of your suggested placements,(there's a lot!) but good job on this. Everything looks good so far, especially since this is a large group of closely related titles. 
<<<

Thanks! I always get a bit nervous when I'm making placements in between issues of comics that I've never read, yet it seems to usually work out ok.

			*	*	*

Thread 42

Subject: Wolverine:Saudade

Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:48 am 
By Frederic Krier

Wolverine: Saudade 

W: Jean-David Morvan A: Philippe Buchet 

Appearances: Wolverine/Logan/James Howlett, Professor X/Charles Francis Xavier, Phoenix IV/Jean Grey Summers, Mexer, Kuhrradaizonest, Pedrao, a mermaid, several unidentified students of Xavier's school, various unidentified persons 

Synopsis: Pg.1-6,p1: One day. Sunny weather. Three street kids, one of them identified as Mexer are on the run from several armed goons. Meanwhile, Wolverine, who just arrived in Fortaleza, Brazil, is talking on the phone with Professor X, who informs him that he's picked a signal of mutant activity through Cerebro in the same town, and wants Wolverine, who intended to stay there on holiday, to check it. Wolverine interrupts the call as he spots the three street kids trying to steal his bike. Wolverine is however taken out by the mutant Mexer, with a mixture of telekinesis and psychosomatic powers. The three kids take off with the cars, their pursuers arrive to late, but help Wolverine to get up. After they call some help and depart, Wolverine slowly regains his senses and starts looking for the young mutant. 
Pg.6, p2- Pg.7: A little while later. Sercipe hills. The miracle healer Kuhrradaizonest gets a shock because Mexer used his mutant powers again. 
Pg.8-11: Later. Wolverine finds his motorbike in the nearby slums, but also the goons from previously who beat up the three street kids. He attacks the gangsters, and takes off on his bike with the three kids. 
Pg.12-17: Later. Nighttime. Wolverine parties with the kids at the beach, and dances with a local woman, who gives him a necklace with a mermaid symbol, then mysteriously disappears. Taking the bus to Pirambu, Wolverine talks to Mexer about his powers and invites him to join Xavier's school. He spends the night at the kids' hut in Pirambu. 
Pg.18-26: The next day. Wolverine wakes up as Xavier calls him on his mobile/X-Phone. Apparently there is another, more powerful mutant nearby. Wolverine however decides to first take a swim. He is then rejoined by the kids, who went out to get some fruit. Just then, they are attacked by the gangsters from the previous day, who manage to take Wolverine out (though they need a lot of bullets to do it), shoot at least one of the kids, and kidnap the unconscious Mexer. They throw what they believe to be Wolverine's corpse into the sea. Wolverine is found underwater by some sort of mermaid, who recognizes the mermaid symbol on Wolverine's necklace, and revives him with a kiss. 
Pg.27-28: Later. Kuhrradaizonest heals a young woman, then tells his bodyguard Pedrao to bring him the rotten one. 
Pg.29, p1-7: Meanwhile. Wolverine finds himself lying on a beach, naked, but alive. 
Pg.29, p8-11  Pg.30, p1-6: Kuhrradaizonest confronts Mexer, who tries to flee, but is stopped by Pedrao. Kuhrradaizonest then proceeds to heal the boy. 
Pg.30, p7-11  Pg.31, p1-5: Meanwhile. Wolverine calls Professor X by using a public phone, tells him about what happened, and asks Xavier if he can localize his X-Phone. 
Pg.31, p6-10  Pg.34: Later. Wolverine, who apparently bought some clothes in the meantime, is in the luxurious home of one of the gangsters, the one wearing an eye patch, who apparently keeps a collection of mobile phones from all of his victims. Wolverine confronts him, and Eye Patch tells him about what happened to Mexer. Wolverine refrains from killing him, as the gangster's two small kids enter the room. He leaves. 
Pg.35-41: Later. Nighttime. Wolverine attacks Kuhrradaizonest's mansion. After a fight, he takes out the healer, who has a powerful healing factor like Wolverine, by stabbing him through the heart. He doesn't withdraw the claws until Kuhrradaizonest is finally dead, despite the fact he told Wolverine about Mexer's fate. 
Pg.42-43: One day. Possibly several days later. Rain. Wolverine finds Mexer, now virtually mindless, working in the gold mines of the Sierra Pelada. 
Pg.44, p1-2: One day. Several days (or weeks) later. Back at Xavier's. Wolverine tells some of Xavier's students about Mexer, who is busy polishing the Blackbird. 
Pg.44, p3: FB to just after Pg.43: Wolverine knocks out a watchman at Sierra Pelada. 
Pg.44, p4: FB to a few days prior. Wolverine argues with Prof X about Mexer. 
Pg.44, p5-8  Pg. 46: The students leave Wolverine, who takes a walk outside. Autumn leaves. Wolverine meets Jean Grey. He tells her how Mexer reminded him of another kid he used to know in the mid-east fifteen years ago. He talks about his regrets, reminiscing about what could have been (Pg.46, p4-9 depict a what if future with Mexer in an X-Men uniform, fighting Magneto, Sabretooth and Omega Red at Wolverine's side). 

Comments: This is the second European exclusive Marvel graphic novel, after Spider-Man in Venice. It originally came out in France in April 2006. This follows the german edition that came out in January 2007. Both GNs, as well as an Italian Daredevil story will be collected in trade as Marvel Europa by Panini UK, the successor of Marvel UK, in July. 

This one is not that hard to place in continuity. On pages 44-46, Wolverine and Jean are both depicted in their Morrison-era uniforms. Professor X is depicted sitting in his wheelchair on page 31. So, my best guess is that this takes place just after New X-Men #126, around the same time as The Order #5-6 (Xavier's spine is cured, but he still is insecure, and continues using the wheelchair). 

None of the students on pages 44-45 look familiar to me: Two normal-looking Africans or African-Americans (a boy with some sort of round cut hairstyle, a taller girl with dreadlocks), one chubby caucasian with red hair (not sure if it's a boy or a girl), a blonde caucasian girl with the power to fly, a green-skinned guy with tentacle hair and four thumbs, a blue-skinned guy with three eyes, weirdly shaped glasses, and long blue spikes instead of hair. Any idea? 

Suggestions for placement: 

*KUHRRADAIZONEST 

*W:SAUDADE 

*MEXER 

*W:SAUDADE 

PHOENIX IV/JEAN GREY SUMMERS 
... 
X 126 
XX 9 
*W:SAUDADE 
ORDER 5 
UX 407 

PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER 
... 
X 126 
*W:SAUDADE 
ORDER 5 
ORDER 6 
BHOOD 8 

WOLVERINE/"LOGAN"/JAMES HOWLETT 
... 
X 126 
* W:SAUDADE 
ORDER 5 
ORDER 6 
BP3 41

			*	*	*

Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:44 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Frederic Krier wrote:
>>>
This one is not that hard to place in continuity. On pages 44-46, Wolverine and Jean are both depicted in their Morrison-era uniforms. Professor X is depicted sitting in his wheelchair on page 31. So, my best guess is that this takes place just after New X-Men #126, around the same time as The Order #5-6 (Xavier's spine is cured, but he still is insecure, and continues using the wheelchair).
<<<

Wouldn't it be easier to place it before Xavier's spine is "healed" (perhaps while it's CassaNova in Xavier's body)?

			*	*	*

Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:50 pm 
By Dhall

Frederic, 
Do you know of any good source for a listing of original Panini content? Or any good sources for obtaining such books? I am particularly interested in a four issue limited series named Wild Angels they did which had some Marvel UK content, that had not been previously published. 

Thanks! Dave

			*	*	*

Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:07 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I'd rather go with the intent that it IS Prof. X -- which means that, if the school is up and running and Jean's alive, it'd have to be after X #126 and before X #146. And since we already had to invent a period of time where a healed Xavier uses his wheelchair, we might as well make use of it to place this story there. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:27 pm 
By Jason Doty

Where did this comic come from? Are there any other series with X-Men appearances? I'm a completest and this snuck by me.

			*	*	*

Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:30 pm 
By jephyork
Director

It was published in France. Wait for the English translation, coming (to the UK, anyway) from Panini this summer. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:57 am 
By Frederic Krier

jephyork wrote:
>>>
I'd rather go with the intent that it IS Prof. X -- which means that, if the school is up and running and Jean's alive, it'd have to be after X #126 and before X #146. And since we already had to invent a period of time where a healed Xavier uses his wheelchair, we might as well make use of it to place this story there.
<<<

That's exactly how I figured out where it fits best. 

Some info on the Panini graphic novels:http://www.paninionline.com/collectibles/institutional/bt/uk/news.asp?idNews=228 
So more X-Men stuff has been announced, but not published yet. 
Former European exclusive projects include the Spider-Man in Venice GN that will also be reprinted in the "Marvel Europa" trade; Wild Angels, which was published as "Marvel Top 6" in Italy in 1996, and was originally supposed to be a mini-series from Marvel UK (no, I don't have that one, maybe it can be found through the Italian version of EBay). 
Jean-Yves Mitton also did two Silver Surfer stories in France that continue fromSilver Surfer vol. I #18, that came out in "Nova", issues 25 and 26 in 1968. Those are presumably not canon ( I haven't read those either).

			*	*	*

Thread 43

Subject: Marvel Frontier Comics

Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:34 pm
By Dhall

This is a weird little Marvel UK imprint from 1993-4 that didn't last very long. 
It produces four series, and a one-shot special. (Yay, more gap books.) 
The series Mortigan Goth: Immortalis is already listed in the project, so I've not written that one up. 

I'll list synopsis, and character listings for the others below. 

Dave H.

Last edited by Dhall on Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

			*	*	*

Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:37 pm 
By Dhall

Marvel Frontier Comics Special #1

This issue is a one shot with six stories, four of which are prequels/sequels to the four Frontier comics series. 
I've only listed character listings here, for the characters who don't appear in any of the three series I've written up (I've listed Frontier in the listings for those books.) 
Note that the fifth and sixth stories have characters that are not from the other Frontier books. The sixth story is a bit bizarre, are we meant to believe that these are Jean Grey's ancestors? Who knows. 


Marvel Frontier Comics Special #1 

First Story: 
Immortalis: Mortigan Goth 

Synopsis : Cambridge, England 1993 
Mortigan goes to Cambridge to visit a friend. 

Second Story: 
Ghost Dancer/Nathaniel Great Owl 
Edwards, Curtis M.  also in fb 
Iktomi  in fb only 

Synopsis: December 21, 1925, New York. Nathaniel Great Owl hunts. 

Third Story: 
St. Croix, Mona 
Wantling, Samuel 
Homerstone, Harriet 
Voyager (in fb only) 
Harker, Alicia (in fb, and as a spirit) 

Synopsis: Mona receives a phone call, and a fax of some book pages from Sam. Harriet summons the ghost of her ancestors lover. She reunites him with the spirit of her ancestor, Alicia Harker. 
Alicia tells Harriet that she should teach Sam. 

Fourth Story: 
Bloodseed/Lysander 
Nepenthe 

Synopsis: Lysander meets Nepenthe, and stays with her for a few days, but when she uses her powers to see into the future, she has her creatures bring Lysander to the frozen surface, and leave him there. He wanders again, completely having lost the memories of meeting Nepenthe. 

Fifth Story: The Locked Room (An Evil Eye prologue) 
Hellman, Mike (also in fb) 
Hearst, Emily (in fb & FB-FB) 
Hearst, Lisa (in fb& FB-FB) 
Hearst, Theodore (in fb& FB-FB) 

Synopsis: A dead woman is found inside a locked room. Mike, a psychic is brought in to investigate. 
Lisa fought Emily, who had caught her using her powers, and attacked her. Then theo used his powers to kill her, but he didnt mean to do it. 

Sixth Story: Troubling Deaf Heaven 
John 
Charles Grey 
Harold 
Malkin Grey 
Eleanor Grey 

Synopsis: 1757, the Hellfire Club in England. After some type of fright, Charles Grey stabs himself to death in the Hellfire Club. One hundred years later his descendant Malkin Grey, entertains his brother in law, and abuses his wife. The spirit of Charles Grey appears, and steals Malkins body. Malkin possess a dead cat in order to hid from Charles. A year later, Malkin as a cat drops a pitcher on Charles. Then jumps out a window, to his death, so he can free himself from the cat body, and retake possession of his own. However when his spirit reenters the house, Eleanor has used a poker from the fireplace to make sure than Malkin is dead. 

GREY, CHARLES 
FRONTIER 1/6 

GREY, ELEANOR 
FRONTIER 1/6 

GREY, MALKIN 
FRONTIER 1/6 

HEARST, EMILY 
FRONTIER 1/5-FB-FB 
FRONTIER 1/5-FB 

HEARST, LISA 
FRONTIER 1/5-FB-FB 
FRONTIER 1/5-FB 

HEARST, THEODORE 
FRONTIER 1/5-FB-FB 
FRONTIER 1/5-FB 

HELLMAN, MIKE 
FRONTIER 1/5-FB 
FRONTIER 1/5 




IMMORTALIS/MORTIGAN GOTH 
MG:I 1-FB 
MG:I 2-FB 
MG:I 4-FB 
MG:I 2-FB 
MG:I 3-FB 
MG:I 1-FB 
**FRONTIER 1 
MG:I 1 
MG:I 2 
MG:I 3 
MG:I 4

			*	*	*

Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:39 pm 
By Dhall

Dances with Demons

Dances With Demons #1 
Ghost Dancer/Nathaniel Great Owl 
Ghost Dancer II/James Owl 
Manitou (also in fb) 
Lori 
Iktomi 

Dances With Demons #2 
Ghost Dancer II/James Owl (also in fb between 1 and 2) 
Lori (also in fb between 1 and 2) 
Manitou ( also in fb between 1 and 2) 
Iktomi 
Owl, Ethan 

Dances With Demons #3 
Ghost Dancer II/James Owl (also in fb between 2 and 3) 
Lori (also in fb between 2 and 3) 
Manitou (in fb between 2 and 3) 
Iktomi 
Ghost Dancer/Nathaniel Great Owl (as a ghost) 

Dances with Demons #4 
Ghost Dancer II/James Owl 
Ghost Dancer/Nathaniel Great Owl (as a ghost) 
Manitou 
Iktomi 
Lori 

Synopsis: James grandfather, Nathaniel is killed by Manitou. James learns that he is the new Ghost Dancer, from Lori, a woman who can turn into an eagle. Manitou kills James parents, but James escapes. Lori guides James and sends him on a vision quest, where he meets his grandfathers spirit, and becomes the new Ghost Dancer. Iktomi leads Manitou to James friends, James is able to use his new powers to stop Manitou, but not before Lori dies. 

GHOST DANCER/NATHANIEL GREAT OWL 
FRONTIER 1 /2 
DWD 1 
DWD 3 
DWD 4 

GHOST DANCER II/ JAMES OWL 
DWD 1 
DWD 2-FB 
DWD 2 
DWD 3-FB 
DWD 3 
DWD 4 

IKTOMI 
FRONTIER 1 /2 - FB 
DWD 1 
DWD 2 
DWD 3 
DWD 4 

LORI 
DWD 1 
DWD 2-FB 
DWD 2 
DWD 3-FB 
DWD 3 
DWD 4 

MANITOU 
DWD 1-FB 
DWD 1 
DWD 2-FB 
DWD 2 
DWD 3-FB 
DWD 3 
DWD 4

			*	*	*

Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:39 pm 
By Dhall

Children of the Voyager

Children of the Voyager #1 
Elise 
Wantling, Samuel 
McPherson 
St. Croix, Mona 
Hannah 
Voyager 

Synopsis: A writer, Sam Wantling is having nightmares. He has two about the Dream Demon. 

Children of the Voyager #2 

Wantling, Samuel (also in childhood fb) 
Mona 
Homerstone, Harriet 
Voyager (also in fb) 

Synopsis: Sams editor, Mona, convinces him to go see a witch. The witch, Harriet Homerstone, goes into Sams mind, to examine his childhood. She sees something did something to Sam, while he was in the womb. She realizes that he is a child of the Voyager. 

Children of the Voyager #3 
Wantling, Samuel (also in teenage fb) 
Homerstone, Harriet 
Voyager (also in various fbs) 


Synopsis: Sam takes a walk in the woods, and remembers his life. Then he goes to the cabin where Harriet brought him. She puts him to sleep and they explore the Voyagers past. 

Children of the Voyager #4 
Wantling, Samuel 
Homerstone, Harriet 
Voyager 
St. Croix, Mona 

Synopsis: The Voyager has come for Sam. It is dying, and wants to reclaim Sams soul, in order to ascend to the next plane of existence. Sam and Harriet manage to wear out the Voyager. Sam returns the part of a soul that Voyager gave him, and Voyager is transformed, and ascends. Sam is able to use his new found healing powers to save Harriets life. 

HARKER, ALICIA 
FRONTIER 1/3-FB 
FRONTIER 1/3 

HOMERSTONE, HARRIET 
COV 1 
COV 2 
COV 3 
COV 4 
FRONTIER 1/3 


ST. CROIX, MONA 
COV 1 
COV 4 
FRONTIER 1/3 

VOYAGER 
COV 2-FB 
COV 3-FB 
FRONTIER 1/3-FB 
COV 3-FB 
COV 1 
COV 2 
COV 3 
COV 4 

WANTLING, SAMUEL 
COV 2-FB 
COV 3-FB 
COV 1 
COV 2 
COV 3 
COV 4 
FRONTIER 1/3

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Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:41 pm 
By Dhall

Bloodseed

This was the strangest of the four books. The main character has no memory, there are space dinosaurs, and the book ends before what is going on is really explained. It takes place not on some other world than Earth, but that's about all we know. 


Bloodseed #1 
Bloodseed/Lysander 
One-armed man 

Synopsis: Lysander wanders around in the freezing wilderness, remembering his lost kingdom. He fights various creatures, and heals a bird creature. 

Bloodseed #2 
Ellissya 
Bloodseed/Lysander 
One-armed man 
Axlan 
Lord Jura 

Synopsis: Bloodseed is captured by the one-armed man. Ellissya wanders the land, scavenging technology wherever she goes. She rescues Bloodseed, who has already used his powers to get the water beast to kill the one-armed man. Lysandre realizes that all of thier memories are false. They encounter a master, who tricks Lysander into removing the helmet of truth. He then realizes that him and Ellissya are both runners, who are bred to fight and kill each other, so that the one true Bloodseed can emerge. They fight, while the master reports to Lord Jura, who is some kind of space dinosaur. 

AXLAN 
BLOODSEED 2 

BLOODSEED/LYSANDER 
FRONTIER 1/4 
BLOODSEED 1 
BLOODSEED 2 

ELLISSYA 
BLOODSEED 2 

LORD JURA 
BLOODSEED 2 

NEPENTHE 
FRONTIER 1/4

			*	*	*

Thread 44

Subject: New Warriors #1 - this can't fit, can it? [SPOILERS]

Sat 09 Jun 2007 08:40 am 
By Somebody
Director

Okay, I'm putting this in Chat because, while it's a chronology issue, it's not one that would affect MCP listings  

[spoiler]Okay, so apparently Winddancer (Sofia) and Beak had a friendship @ Xavier's. There's no time this could have happened, is there? 

Sofia turned up at the very end of school time in Morrisons NXM - of the New Mutants, the only one who was at the school as late as Riot at Xaviers was Laurie/Wallflower, who had been there for some time before Sofia, David, Wither and Josh turned up. 

Then, after Surge turned up and Josh turned himself gold, the school got blowed up real good real guickly by Xorneto. And, before the school was anywhere near rebuilt, Beak was nicked by the Exiles. There's no time there for them to form an attachment pre-M-Day - and she doesnt nearly recognise him, which goes against her having seen him since M-Day. 

Plus, Sofia asks how Angel is - then if he found his kids. Now, Beak was separated from his kids AND Angel because he was nabbed by the Exiles. From her perspective, BEAK would have been the one that vanished. So why would (a) she know he'd been reunited with her and (b) think he'd been reunited with her and NOT his umpteen-non-mutant-and-one-mutant kids? 

None of this Sofia/Barnell stuff fits, does it?[/spoiler]

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Sat Jun 09, 2007 2:30 pm 
By JD

Er, I do think it can fit. There are two periods where the two indicated people were there at the same time. 

I'm basing myself on Paul B's Calendar, so this might be quite off, but at least the sequence of events should be right. 

[spoiler]Year 22, May 26 : NM2 2, Sofia shows up at the Institute (post-Riot) 
May 29 : X 141, Beak & Angel's children hatch and become public knowledge 
June 24 : X 146, Xorneto attacks (and there is indeed a "last month" reference in X 142) 

So that's one whole month between Sofia's arrival and the destruction of the Institute. During much of this period, Beak is a very public figure, and his children with Angel are public knowledge. 

Also : 
June 27 : X 150, end of Xorneto's coup 
June 30 : NM2 13 
July 2 : XX 46, rebuilding has restarted 
July 15 : EX 48, Beak is abducted by the Exiles 

We know from NX2 1 that Surge has been there for the whole reconstruction ; my recollection is sketchy for Sofia's status. But that's another potential 15 days' window, where Beak was a hero for his resistance against Xorneto.[/spoiler]JD 
Major Player
 
  
Posts: 301
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:01 am 

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Sat Jun 09, 2007 3:38 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

JD wrote: 
>>>
I'm basing myself on Paul B's Calendar, so this might be quite off
<<<

Hey now! 

Paul B.

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Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:25 pm 
By JD

Well, I dig you calendar, and I agree with the "20+ years old Marvel Universe" theory, but mileages vary...

			*	*	*

Thread 45

Subject: Coming from Marvel in September
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Solicitations are up at Newsarama - http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Sept ... tions.html 

"One More Day" runs through AMAZING #544 and FRIENDLY #24 (which is the final issue). 

ANNIHILATION CONQUEST continues to run through its three miniseries, plus NOVA #6. 

CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE CHOSEN #1-2 is a miniseries by David Morrell and Mitch Breitweiser under the Marvel Knights imprint. Certainly not in present-day continuity, and since it appears to be an alternate version of the last days of Captain America, there's a good chance that it's out of continuity altogether. 

FRANKLIN RICHARDS: MONSTER MASH is another one-shot. 

IRON FIST gets an annual. 

ANT-MAN is cancelled with issue #12, which won't surprise anyone who reads the sales figures. 

IRON MAN: ENTER THE MANDARIN is a six-issue miniseries by Joe Casey and Eric Canete retelling Iron Man's first meeting with the Mandarin. 

MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS is a new ongoing anthology series with the old four-story format. 

The HANDBOOK is doing Zombies. 

MYSTIC ARCANA continues with the SISTER GRIMM one-shot. 

PENANCE: RELENTLESS is a five-issue miniseries about Robbie Baldwin, by Paul Jenkins and Paul Gulacy. 

WORLD WAR HULK continues in WORLD WAR HULK #4, INCREDIBLE HULK #110, WWH: FRONT LINE #5 and WWH: GAMMA CORPS #3. How restrained. 

"Endangered Species" continues as the back-up strips in UNCANNY X-MEN #490, X-FACTOR #23, NEW X-MEN #42 and X-MEN #203. 

X-MEN: EMPEROR VULCAN by Chris Yost and Paco Diaz is a five-issue miniseries with the new Starjammers. 

Marvel Masterworks: Fantastic Four vol 5 and Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD vol 1. 

The Avengers/Defenders War is collected in a hardback. Wolverine Classic reaches vol 5. Captain America: Red White & Blue gets a paperback reprint. For some reason, Rob Rodi's LOKI miniseries also gets a belated collection.

-- Paul O'Brien

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19 Jun 2007 11:44 am 
By rhod

>>>
ANT-MAN is cancelled with issue #12, which won't surprise anyone who reads the sales figures. 
<<<

Where can I find the sales figures?

"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

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Jun 2007 12:13 pm 
By JD

rhod wrote:
>>>
Where can I find the sales figures?
<<<

Here : http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog ... pril-2007/

>>>
131. IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN
10/06 Irredeemable Ant-Man #1 - 29,499
11/06 Irredeemable Ant-Man #2 - 23,191 (-21.4%)
12/06 Irredeemable Ant-Man #3 - 19,580 (-15.6%)
01/07 Irredeemable Ant-Man #4 - 17,864 ( -8.8%)
02/07 Irredeemable Ant-Man #5 - 16,900 ( -5.4%)
03/07 Irredeemable Ant-Man #6 - 16,220 ( -4.0%)
04/07 Irredeemable Ant-Man #7 - 15,737 ( -3.0%)
6 mnth (-46.7%)
<<<

It was selling lower than Blade, which was cancelled last month.


[edit]

Paul O'Brien wrote:
>>>
WORLD WAR HULK continues in WORLD WAR HULK #4, INCREDIBLE HULK #110, WWH: FRONT LINE #5 and WWH: GAMMA CORPS #3. How restrained. 
<<<

You forgot HEROES FOR HIRE #14, but yeah.

The "skip month" watch list : 
- Mighty Avengers (running very late, but not unexpected from Frank Cho), 
- Runaways (what a surprise, Whedon comes on and it turns into a bimonthly !), 
- Black Panther, 
- She-Hulk, 
- Iron Fist (but there's the Annual : they seem to put these out to fill the schedule these days...), 
- Sensational Spider-Man (but it'll be cancelled the next month, so who cares ?), 
- Astonishing X-Men (eh), 
- New Avengers: Illuminati (now a quarterly instead of a bimonthly ?)
- Powers (they have issues rescheduled till October, so it would be silly to solicit any new ones...)
- Criminal

[And maybe some others I absolutely don't follow, such as the DBPro books]



from the Newsarama solicits wrote:
>>>
NEW FROM MARVEL! The "MONTHLY" DAILY BUGLE
<<<

They've been doing those for close to a year, right ? How can this qualify as "new" ?

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19 Jun 2007 03:49 pm 
By Enda80

CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE CHOSEN #1-2 is a miniseries by David Morrell and Mitch Breitweiser under the Marvel Knights imprint. Certainly not in present-day continuity, and since it appears to be an alternate version of the last days of Captain America, there's a good chance that it's out of continuity altogether. 

David Morrell wrote the novel First Blood. Check the imdb for info on that. Dean Koontz once wrote me a letter about how he enjoyed that novel and Testament.

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19 Jun 2007 08:10 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Paul O'Brien wrote:
>>>
For some reason, Rob Rodi's LOKI miniseries also gets a belated collection.
<<<

It was collected in hardcover shortly after the series can out, but this is the first paperback collection of the series.

			*	*	*

20 Jun 2007 06:21 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Is IRON MAN: ENTER THE MANDARIN the Joe Casey Iron Man origin project he was supposed to be working on, similar to First Family & Earth's Mightiest Heroes I & II? Or is that still coming, and this is something else?

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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20 Jun 2007 07:34 pm 
By lkseitz

Paul O'Brien wrote:
>>>
The Avengers/Defenders War is collected in a hardback.
<<<

Is this the first time they've done a hardback collection after already publishing a TPB? Yes, it was five years ago, but my copy of the TPB still works just fine. Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

20 Jun 2007 07:40 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Well, Origin went OHC, TPB, PHC (as "Wolverine: Origin"). 

And they've done lots of OHCs which collect two or three already-published TPBs.

			*	*	*

23 Jun 2007 12:26 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Answered my own question about the Iron Man mini: It's tying into TOS 50-55, similar to Earth's Mightiest Heroes I & II did with early Avengers issues.

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

Thread 46

Subject: Iron Man in BFF:BG&L 1

20 Jun 2007 07:29 pm 
By wolframbane

In Before the Fantastic Four: Ben Grimm and Logan #1, a young Tony Stark was with Nick Fury when he was briefing Ben Grimm and Logan. Was this before or after Tony inherited Stark Enterprises from his parents? Is there any references to this in the issue? 

Also, as a side note, the most recent Avengers Handbook seems to indicate that Wong Chu was from Sin-Cong rather than Vietnamese. This seems to change the event from Vietnam to Sin-Cong. I wonder if this is the same character as Wang-Chu, a general in the People's Army of Sin-Cong, from Avengers Spotlight #22, who helped persuade Swordsman to join the revolution and thenbetrayed him.

			*	*	*

21 Jun 2007 06:11 pm 
By Enda80

Yes, he is. The author of that Solo Avengers story imed me to state that they were the same person. In fact, he is iming me right now.

			*	*	*

21 Jun 2007 07:51 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
In fact, he is iming me right now.
<<<

Ooh...I feel a little...dirty...Paul B.

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22 Jun 2007 06:25 am 
By Somebody
Director

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Yes, he is. The author of that Solo Avengers story imed me to state that they were the same person. In fact, he is iming me right now.
<<<

If that's the case, why Wang-Chu instead of Wong-Chu?

			*	*	*

23 Jun 2007 10:58 am 
By wolframbane

Maybe at the time it was not intended for them to be the same person, as Wong Chu was from Vietnam and Wang-Chu was from Sin-Cong, but now it seems that Wong Chu is from Sin-Cong given the latest retcon from the Mighty Avengers OHOTMU,

			*	*	*

23 Jun 2007 11:48 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Well, hold on. What do the stories say? When the Handbook contradicts the stories, then the Handbook is incorrect. 


watching: harry potter & and the chamber of secrets

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23 Jun 2007 01:14 pm 
By Enda80

The name in Solo Avengers#22 is Wong Chu. 

From the writer himself via IM: 

I intended Wong-Chu to be the same one as in Suspense #39, but Don Heck didn't draw the same character. 

The easy solution; Wong-Chu was older when he ran into Iron Man, the Swordsman's origin probably took place years earlier.

			*	*	*

23 Jun 2007 02:11 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Okay, now I'm totally confused.

I think you mean Avengers Spotlight, not Solo Avengers.

Is this in answer to my question? Because I wasn't asking for the name of the character. I was referring to wolframbane's statement that "Wong Chu is from Sin-Cong given the latest retcon from the Mighty Avengers OHOTMU."

First of all, does the Handbook attempt to say that Iron Man's origin took place in Sin-Cong?

Secondly, is that a retcon? Is it a contradiction of what's in the stories themselves?

But your IM conversation is begging some other questions, directed toward wolframbane:


In the original post, we were told:
>>>
I wonder if this is the same character as Wang-Chu, a general in the People's Army of Sin-Cong, from Avengers Spotlight #22, who helped persuade Swordsman to join the revolution and thenbetrayed him.
<<<

If the character in question was Wong Chu in TOS 39, and Wong Chu in ASPOT 22, then why are we discussing some chucklehead named Wang-Chu? Who the hell is Wang-Chu? 

And finally, I don't see any indication that the character in Avengers Spotlight 22 is "a general in the People's Army of Sin-Cong." Where did that come from? 

Let's clarify what we're talking about, and then we'll be closer to having a productive discussion. 


watching: pirates of the caribbean: yo ho ho and a bottle of rum

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23 Jun 2007 11:00 pm 
By wolframbane

>>>
First of all, does the Handbook attempt to say that Iron Man's origin took place in Sin-Cong?
<<<

The Mighty Avengers OHOTMU simply states that Wong Chu was from Sin-Cong, not that it necessarily occurred in Sin-Cong, and that Wong Chu worked for the Mandarin.

The newest version of Tony's origin from Invincible Iron Man #1-#6 ('Extremis') seems to place his origin during the Gulf War. Is any of this considered canon?


>>>
>>>
The name in Solo Avengers#22 is Wong Chu. 
<<<
I think you mean Avengers Spotlight, not Solo Avengers.
<<<

Definitely Avengers Spotlight #22. 
http://www.avengersassemble.us/spot.html


>>>
If the character in question was Wong Chu in TOS 39, and Wong Chu in ASPOT 22, then why are we discussing some chucklehead named Wang-Chu? Who the hell is Wang-Chu?
<<<

Typo on my part. Musta been listening to too much Wang Chung!!

			*	*	*

25 Jun 2007 12:02 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Everybody Wong Chu tonight. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 47

Subject: New Avengers 31 [SPOILERS]

15 Jun 2007 01:44 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

 you haven't already, go read New Avengers 31. 

I am totally jazzed about this Skrull thing. Marvel are finally using Skrulls they way I've wanted them to for years: Invasion of the Body Snatchers! Who's 'real?' Who's a Skrull? And for how long? Total Paranoia! This is how Skrulls should invade Earth. Not with an armada of ships, but through their shape-changing abilities. 

I had no idea this was coming, it took me completely by surprise, and I love it. 

On a different note:

...how long will it take to reveal who's been a Skrull and for how long, so we know what issues to put into which characters' chronologies? 

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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15 Jun 2007 05:42 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'm having trouble seeing the hidden message. Is anyone else experiencing difficulty with this?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

15 Jun 2007 05:49 am 
By Ant-Man

Yes.

PUM SPAK 
Justice is Served

			*	*	*

15 Jun 2007 06:50 am 
By PopularLoser

ditto

[Insert Witty Remark Here]

			*	*	*

15 Jun 2007 07:16 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Try it now. The way the spoiler tag works is that if you haven't read New Avengers 31, it won't show you the spoiler text. 


watching: today

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15 Jun 2007 11:49 am 
By rhod

Maybe it was a Skrull rather than a real spoiler tag 

"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

			*	*	*

15 Jun 2007 01:27 pm 
By SKleefeld
Director

I might've been okay with the idea even as recent as six or seven years ago but, in all honesty, I don't trust the current folks to deliver anything satisfying. It's an interesting idea, but A) it's been done before and B) it almost certainly requires rewriting a lot of history which marvel has proven to be especially bad at lately. 

Any previous editorial staff, except maybe Shooter's post-Secret Wars era, I would've trusted to pull this off with creativity and respect. The guys in charge now? I think they're just going to steam-roller over everthing with little or no regard for good storytelling, and get me to drop the very few remaining marvel books left on my pull list. 

Hopefully, I'm wrong but I'm skeptical. Especially given recent history.

			*	*	*

17 Jun 2007 08:46 am 
By lkseitz

Yes, the text in this spoiler is Rom related, but the spoiler itself isn't. Why do you ask? 

I haven't read the issue in question, but saw a little discussion of it in rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe. They're going to have to be careful how far back they go with this, because they have indeed done this before with the Dire Wraiths. So anyone Rom used his Analyzer on or that the Avengers scanned during that time cannot have been a Skrull before that point.

Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

25 Jun 2007 04:24 pm 
By Enda80

Actually, this approach for the Skrulls was tried before in the 3-D Man tales.
Last edited by Enda80 on 25 Jun 2007 06:08 pm, edited 2 times in total. 

			*	*	*

25 Jun 2007 10:09 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

We've seen this before, of course. I'm thinking of Lyja in FF in the '90's... but this hasn't been done line-wide before, right? Or did I miss something? 

I mean, Invasion of the Body Snatchers across all the Marvel books! That's just cool.  

I'm encouraged because they're saying this has been planned out for a few years, as far back as New Avengers #1. And I'm willing to bet that there's one guy out there that knows who's a Skrull and who's not...

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

			*	*	*

25 Jun 2007 10:25 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Well, there'd BETTER be. 

-Jeph!

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26 Jun 2007 12:33 am 
By Enda80

3-D Man could detect Skrulls no matter what form they took in his series in MP. Also, as the Dire Wraiths are indeed Skrulls, techincailly this approach has been done line wide for Skrulss before.

			*	*	*

26 Jun 2007 08:19 pm 
By SeanCurtin

But the original Dire Wraith invasion didn't have the hook of familiar characters being replaced by Wraiths like this Skrull story apparently does. The only recurring character outside of Rom's book who was replaced was Naz.

			*	*	*

26 Jun 2007 11:18 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Exactly!

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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27 Jun 2007 07:55 pm 
By lkseitz

Frankly, the whole thing reminds me of the Manhunters in DC's Millennium crossover. Except this time it's heroes being agents rather than a member of their supporting cast.

Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

28 Jun 2007 06:04 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

It looks like they're setting up the She-Hulk's bedding Juggernaut as a related event.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

28 Jun 2007 09:17 am 
By jephyork
Director

Eh? THAT old plot point? Where did you hear that? 

-Jeph!

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28 Jun 2007 11:19 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Eh? THAT old plot point? Where did you hear that? 
<<<

Check out this week's She-Hulk 19! 

"Fury's gonna stay lost as long as he wants to stay lost. He kinda, from what I understand, wrote the book on it." -the President

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29 Jun 2007 07:12 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Oh man. Dan Slott carries a grudge. 

I wonder if Chuck Austen was a ...? Nah, too easy an out. 

-Jeph!
