	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Frankenstein Monster corrections & additions
2. Tales of the Zombie Corrections
3. Captain Marvel vPAD1 #6-FB
4. Original X-Men in X:ES FB
5. George Stacy in MCP
6. X-Men appearance in Punisher Vol 2 #18
7. various corrections
8. What if? 4
9. M/PRM corrections
10. Villains in Heroes For Hire v3 #1
11. What If? v2 #82
12. Villains at Satan's Circus in Underworld #3
13. Steve Engleheart, Jim Starlin, and Al Milgrom in Master of K
14. Flashbacks in FALLEN SON 5
15. Civil War: War Crimes [SPOILERS]
16. Spider-man Family v2 3/1
17. Sandman's early chronology
18. Astonishing X-Men placement
19. AIF additions
20. World War Hulk
21. Incredible Hulk #464-FB
22. Seperate characters body-sharing
23. WBN Corrections
24. Midnight Sons related mistakes
25. M/CP 43/4
26. M/FEA 11, 12, M/TIO 1
27. M/S&L 1/3
28. SWII 7
29. Star-Lord
30. Riot at Xaviers/Holy War
31. Sub-Mariner additions
32. Various FF additions

	Issue Analysis Forum
33. What If? 35 vol. 1, 1st story
34. Monsters Unleashed 1/4
35. Wolverine: Origins 12-15
36. Calendar; Barracuda 1-5
37. Wolverine: Origins Annual 1
38. SUB-M 62/2 - SUB-M 66/2

	Chat Forum
39. Second Vietnam War in the MU





Thread 1

Subject: Frankenstein Monster corrections & additions

01 Jul 2007 10:02 am
By Dhall

*Walton, Robert IV 
MONF 1 
MONF 2 
MONF 3 
MONF 4 

*WALTON, ROBERT 
MONF 3-FB 

*FRANKENSTEIN, VICTOR 
MONF 1-FB 
MONF 2-FB 
MONF 3-FB 

*FRANKENSTEIN, WILLIAM 
MONF 1-FB 
MU 2-FB 

*CLERVAL, HENRY 
MONF 1-FB 
MONF 2-FB 

*FRANKENSTEIN, ELIZABETH 
MONF 1-FB 
MONF 3-FB 
MU 2-FB 
MONF 3-FB 

*MORITZ, JUSTINE 
MU 2-FB 
MONF 1-FB 

*FARRELL, SEAN 
MONF 1 
MONF 2 
MONF 3 
MONF 4 

*CANUTE 
MONF 1 
MONF 2 
MONF 3 
MONF 4 

*LENORE 
MONF 5 

*BLACKSTONE, COLONEL 
FMON 6 

*DRAKO 
FMON 7 

*MADAME MARGUERITA 
FMON 7 
FMON 8 

*MARGUERITA, CARMEN 
FMON 7 
FMON 8 
FMON 9 
FMON 10 

DRACULA 
DL 6/4 
TOD 7-FB 
TOD 1-FB 
**FMON 7 
FMON 8 
FMON 9 
TOD 20-FB 

*FRANKENSTEIN, VINCENT 
FMON 9 
FMON 10 
FMON 11 

*IVAN 
FMON 10 
FMON 11 

*BETTY 
FMON 11 

*FRANKENSTEIN, LENORE 
FMON 11 


FRANKENSTEIN MONSTER 
**MONF 1-FB 
**MONF 2-FB 
**MONF 2-FB-FB 
** MU 2-FB 
**MONF 1-FB 
**MONF 2-FB 
MONF 3-FB 
**MU 2-FB 
**MONF 3-FB 
{UX 40-FB} 
MONF 4-FB 
MONF 1 
MONF 2 
MONF 3 
MONF 4 
MONF 5 
FMON 6 
FMON 7 
FMON 8 
FMON 9 
FMON 10 
FMON 11 
FMON 12 
A 131 
A 132 
GSA 3 
FMON 12 
INV 31-FB-FB <-remove, this is a WW II prototype created by Basil Frankenstein, not the Fmon. 
INV 31-FB<-remove, this is a WW II prototype created by Basil Frankenstein, not the Fmon. 
SS 7-FB Remove, what flashback? Dr. Ludwig Frankenstein watches a Frankenstein movie, but thats all it is. 
**MU 2 
**MU 4 
FMON 12 <- IN WRONG SPOT, REMOVE 
MU 5/5 
MU 6 
MU 7 
MU 8 
MU 9 
MU 10 
**LOM 1 (LEGION OF MONSTERS 1) 
**FMON 12 
GSWBN 2 

*MCDOWELL, DEREK 
MU 2-FB 
MU 2 
MU 4 
MU 6 

*WALLACH, DR. OWEN 
MU 4 
MU 5/5 

* SINODA, JAMES 
MU 6 
MU 7 
MU 8 

*BRUNO 
MU 7 
MU 8 

*WINTERS, JULIA 
MU 8 
MU 9 

*CACCONE, RALPH 
FMON 13 
FMON 14 
FMON 15 
FMON 16 
FMON 17 
FMON 18 

*CACCONE, JULIA 
FMON 13 
FMON 14 

*CACCONE, STEVEN 
FMON 13 
FMON 14 

*PRAWN, ERIC 
FMON 14 
FMON 15 
FMON 16 
FMON 17 
FMON 18 

*CARDINAL 
FMON 14 
FMON 15 
FMON 16 
FMON 17 
FMON 18 

*ZANDOR 
FMON 14 
FMON 15 

*FRANKENSTEIN, VERONICA 
FMON 16 
FMON 17 
FMON 18 

*SCHMIDT, WERNER 
FMON 16 
FMON 17 
FMON 18 

*INDIGO 
FMON 16 
FMON 17 
FMON 18 

BERSERKER II/LEGRAND ?ADD REAL NAME 
FMON 16 
**FMON 17 
**FMON 18 

*RAINBOW 
FMON 17 
FMON 18-BTS 

WENDIGO/PAUL CARTIER 
**MU 9/3-FB 
H2 162 
H2 180 
H2 181 

WENDIGO II/GEORGES BAPTISTE 
**MU 9/3-FB 
**MU 9/3-FB 
H2 162 
H2 180 
H2 181 
**MU 9/3-FB 
MU 9/3 
UX 139 
UX 140 





Monsters Unleashed 2 
Characters Appearing: 
Frankenstein Monster 
Mc Dowell, Derek 
Tisha 

FB: Frankensteins monster kills William Frankenstein. (new material) 
Fb: new material, with the Monster talking to victors wife, before he kills her. 

Derek McDowell is a neurosurgeon who is obsessed with the Frankenstein legend, having come across Robert Waltons letters. He finds the Monster at a carnival freak show, and attempts to buy it, but is refused. His girlfriend, Tisha becomes so upset by his obsession, that she tries to set the monster on fire, which results in her catching on fire, as well as bringing the monster back to life. The monster attacks the carnival. 

Monsters Unleashed 4 
Characters Appearing: 
Mc Dowell, Derek 
Wallach, Dr. Owen 
Frankenstein Monster 

Derek buys the body of the monster, and has it taken to Dr. Wallachs lab. He transplants Dr. Wallachs brain into the monster body, and Wallach kills Derek. 

Legion of Monsters 1 
Characters Appearing: 
Frankenstein Monster 

The Monster follows a girl to a costume party, and ends up getting involved in a murder plot.

			*	*	*

01 Jul 2007 12:35 pm 
By Enda80

I remembered an error in the Frankenstein Monster's listing. You see a brief, postage stamp sized fb of him walking away as Victoria Frankenstein mentions how he "went his own way". 


M/TU 37 
IM 102-FB 
IM 101 
IM 102 
**DRSTR3 37-FB 
BLOODSTONE 1 
BLOODSTONE 2 
BLOODSTONE 3 
BLOODSTONE 4

			*	*	*

Thread 2

Subject: Tales of the Zombie Corrections

01 Jul 2007 04:15 pm 
By Dhall

GARTH, DONNA 
ST5 1/3-FB 
TOTZ 2-FB 
{TOTZ 1-FB} 
TOTZ 1 
TOTZ 1/2 (Isnt this the same story as MENACE 5?) 
TOTZ 1/6 
TOTZ 2 
TOTZ 2/6 
TOTZ 3 
TOTZ 4 
TOTZ 4/6-BTS Donna does not appear bts in this story, so it should be removed. 
TOTZ 9 This should be TOTZ 9/2 
BLADE3 
ASMU 20 
ST5 1/3-FB 
ST5 1/3 

ZOMBIE/SIMON GARTH 
TOTZ 2-FB 
** TOTZ 9-FB 
TOTZ 1-FB 
TOTZ 1 
{MENACE 5} 
TOTZ 1/6 
**DL 2/5 (MOVED) 
TOTZ 2 
TOTZ 2/6 
DL 2/5 ?Cannot go here, as this story takes place in New Orleans, while Simon Garth is in Haiti during totz 2 and 3. 
TOTZ 3 
TOTZ 4 
TOTZ 4/6 
TOTZ 5 
TOTZ 6 
TOTZ 7 
TOTZ 8 
TOTZ 9 
** TOTZ 9/2 
** TOTZ 9/3 
BIZADV 33 
DD@ 9/3 
S-M '97 
ASMU 20 
ST5 1/3 

*GYPS 
TOTZ 1-FB 
TOTZ 1 
MENACE 5 
TOTZ 1/6 

*STOCKWOOD, BRIAN 
TOTZ 9-FB 
TOTZ 1-FB 
TOTZ 9/2 
TOTZ 9/3-BTS 

*LAYLA 
TOTZ 9-FB 
TOTZ 1-FB 
TOTZ 1-FB 
TOTZ 1 
TOTZ 6 
TOTZ 7 
TOTZ 8 
TOTZ 9 

*JAGGER, SAMUEL 
TOTZ 1/6 
TOTZ 2 
TOTZ 8 
TOTZ 9 
TOTZ 9/2 
TOTZ 9/3-BTS 
TOTZ 9/3 

*GRIGGS, GENE 
TOTZ 1/6 

*HACKMAN 
TOTZ 2-FB 
TOTZ 2 
TOTZ 2/6 

*MR. SIX 
TOTZ 5-FB 
TOTZ 2 
TOTZ 4/6 
TOTZ 5 
TOTZ 9/2 

*CARTIER, ANTON 
TOTZ 2 
TOTZ 2/6 
TOTZ 3 
TOTZ 4 
TOTZ 9/2 
TOTZ 9/3 

*PROFESSOR RICARD 
TOTZ 2 
TOTZ 2/6 

*CICERON 
TOTZ 2 
TOTZ 3 

*BLISS, PHILLIP 
TOTZ 4/6-FB 
TOTZ 3 
TOTZ 4 
TOTZ 4/6 
TOTZ 5 

*MASON, MOIRA 
TOTZ 3 

*MASON, BRUCE 
TOTZ 3 
TOTZ 4 
TOTZ 9/2 

*KATANYA 
TOTZ 3 
TOTZ 4 

*EZILI-KOKOBE 
TOTZ 3 

*JEANETTE 
TOTZ 4 
TOTZ 4/6 
TOTZ 5 

*BERGEN, STEVE 
TOTZ 4 
TOTZ 4/6 
TOTZ 5 

*GRETCH, GENE 
TOTZ 4 
TOTZ 4/6 
TOTZ 5 

*BLISS, LOIS 
TOTZ 4/6-FB 
TOTZ 5-FB 
TOTZ 4/6-FB 
TOTZ 4/6 
TOTZ 5 

*ANDRE 
TOTZ 5 
TOTZ 9/2 

*PAPA SHORTY 
TOTZ 5-FB 
TOTZ 5 
TOTZ 8-FB 

*MASTERSON, TEDDY 
TOTZ 6 

*PAPA DOC KABEL 
TOTZ 8 
TOTZ 9 
TOTZ 9/3 

*MILLER, FRED 
TOTZ 8-FB 
TOTZ 8 

*JORDAN, RAY 
TOTZ 8 

*GARTH, MIRANDA 
TOTZ 9/2-FB 
TOTZ 9-FB 
TOTZ 9/2 
TOTZ 9/3 

FORGOTTEN ONE/GILGAMESH [ETERNAL] 
CA@ 11-FB 
CA@ 11 
T@ 17 
ASPOT 35-FB 
{TOTZ 3} This should be TOTZ 3/2 
E 13

			*	*	*

01 Jul 2007 04:23 pm 
By Enda80

The Gilgamesh in that Tales of the Zombie story was not the Eternal, but a recurringly resurrected entity that went by various names. This entity previously appeared in Marvel Preview#12. 

Tony Isabella mentioned once that he took the name Gilgamesh from Harlan Ellison's Outer Limits episode. Simonson also had that story in mind when he dug out the name.

			*	*	*

Thread 3

Subject: Captain Marvel vPAD1 #6-FB

01 Jul 2007 06:59 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Just noticing that, although the issue is listed, the flashback to the, for want of a better way of putting it, Crisis of Infinite Microverses isn't, for the X-characters at least. [The "Small X-Pectations" footnote is a joke - the issue doesn't exist] 

Storm (hovering, left), Rogue (flying with yellow speed-trail), Nightcrawler and Colossus leap out at me, as does Thanos. 

Otherwise, I presume the silhouette is Baron Karza (referred to only vaguely because Marvel had lost the rights) and the others are Microns/Micronauts. If so, they're at least in different costumes from the present sequences and I don't recognise them. 

Any ideas on placement? (the issue came out the same week as X-Men #101, so "last [real time] year" it may fall in the Six Month Gap for the X-Men, or it would need to go pre-Shattering.)

			*	*	*

01 Jul 2007 08:02 pm 
By Jason Doty

Here's another I missed. Pictured is Storm, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Rogue, Gambit, Marrow, Colossus, Cyclops, and Phoenix.

			*	*	*

01 Jul 2007 08:18 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Ah, didn't look closely enough at the others - the colouring of Jean's upper-leg/boot made me think that was a miniskirt, and the others were too undetailed to leap out at me (except Marrow, she's the one I give myself a black mark for missing...), since I assumed there must be *some* Microns there. 

This must be pretty tight for placement, come to think of it now since Cyclops and Wolverine are present and Marrow's in her post-Skrull-Chamber-of-Healing form: 


Cyke & Jean were off the team from O:ZT until the Shattering (X92)
Of course, The Twelve and AgesOA leave Cyke "dead"
Wolverine was Death until midway through The Twelve (and Skrullverine, Scott and Jean were only around at the same time for the duration of Astonishing X-Men v2, when Marrow was off going to art galleries with Colossus).

*IS* there a good spot?

			*	*	*

02 Jul 2007 01:55 am 
By SeanCurtin

It can't fit into the Six Month Gap if that is Cyclops - he was merged with Apocalypse from the end of The Twelve until after this issue was published. With Cyclops present and Marrow in that costume, the only place this can fit is between the Skrull story (ending in X 90) and the Shattering (beginning in UX 372). We'd simply have to assume that Cyclops and Phoenix rejoined the team for this one adventure, or that they just happened to meet up with the X-Men for an adventure. Of course, that means that this is the Wolverine Skrull, not the real Wolverine.

			*	*	*

02 Jul 2007 06:51 am 
By dimadick

"Cyke & Jean were off the team from O:ZT until the Shattering (X92) " 

Yes but Jean is sporting the green-yellow Phoenix costume. She first uses that costume in "Uncanny X-Men" #354 (April, 1998) during her "retirement" to Alaska. This was part of subplot that her powers were advancing again and was becoming more reminiscent of her Phoenix incarnation every day. 

She seems to have quit that costume during the "Six-months gap" and sports a new one in "Uncanny X-Men" #381 (June, 2000). 

The presence of Colossus and Nightcrawler would place this after "Uncanny X-Men" #360 (October, 1998). Excalibur had disbanded and in order to recover a kidnapped Shadowcat the two turned to the X-Men for help. They seem to join them after this. 

Gambit is also here. The team had left him behind to die before. He reluctantly rejoined them in "Uncanny X-Men" #361 (November, 1998). 

Storm on the other hand wears a costume which leaves her mid-reed bare. She first used that fashion statement in "Storm" vol. 1 #4 (May, 1996). She quits it for a full bodysuit in "Uncanny X-Men" #372 (September, 1999). 

This seems to narrow it down to between "Uncanny X-Men" #361-372. 

Does Marrow seem to be sporting the more pleasant look she gained in "X-Men" vol. 2 #90 (July, 1999)? If not the unseen storyline should be placed before it. If she does it should be placed after it.

			*	*	*

Thread 4

Subject: Original X-Men in X:ES FB

02 Jul 2007 07:05 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Page 7, panel 3 of X-MEN: ENDANGERED SPECIES #1 is a flashback depicting Professor X and the original X-Men apparently posing for a photo on steps outside the X-Mansion. Bobby is icy (not snowy) and Jean is not wearing her pointy mask, so it's sometime between UX 8 and 27. The costumes the X-Men are wearing are the standard ones from the original series, not the version 2.0 costumes from X:FC. Scott has his hand on Jean's shoulder, so this photo would have been taken after he started showing his feelings for Jean; that would help narrow this down. Ideas?

			*	*	*

Thread 5

Subject: George Stacy in MCP

01 Jul 2007 05:26 pm 
By Enda80

STACY, CAPT. GEORGE 
**MCP 74/3 
S-M -1 
UTSM 1 
UTSM 4 
{ASM 56} 
ASM 57 
ASM 58 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/mcaveyconstric.htm

			*	*	*

01 Jul 2007 07:49 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Why are you providing us with a link here? 


watching: harry potter and the prisoner of azkaban

			*	*	*

01 Jul 2007 08:53 pm 
By lkseitz

Administrator wrote:
>>>
Why are you providing us with a link here?
<<<


From the linked page:
>>>
(Marvel Comics Presents#74/3 (fb) ) - McAvey killed his common-law wife and her daughter Amy while her son Frank hid in a cabinet. McAvey was arrested by George Stacy and other policemen.
<<<

I'd say that's why.

Lee K. Seitz 

Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

01 Jul 2007 09:09 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

I understand that the page he linked to tells us that Stacy appears in Mavel Comics Presents, but my question is for John. 

Did he get the basis for his post from the Appendix, or from Marvel Comics Presents? 

If he got it from the Appendix, he's well aware that we don't accept citations from other sites as sources. He's been reminded of that multiple times, and is choosing to ignore the rules. 

If he got it from Marvel Comics Presents, that's all he needs. It's prima facie evidence. The link serves no purpose. 


watching: harry potter and the prisoner of azkaban

			*	*	*

02 Jul 2007 06:32 am 
By Enda80

I skimmed the issue myself and found George Stacy. I put up the link since I did not feel the need to summarize the issue. In any event, I can confirm from having held the issue in my own hands that George Stacy appears in that issue in a fb to the Constrictor's childhood.

			*	*	*

02 Jul 2007 08:11 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks, Enda.

			*	*	*

02 Jul 2007 11:29 am 
By Arthur
Director

shouldn't it be 
STACY, CAPT. GEORGE 
**MCP 74/3-FB 
S-M -1 
then? 

and if the flashback is about Constrictor's childhood, why not give us the placement for Constrictor...? why just Stacy?

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Subject: X-Men appearance in Punisher Vol 2 #18

01 Jul 2007 10:38 am 
By RipStryken

Page one we have "The Board" passing by the X-Men. Storm, Wolverine, Colossus, Rogue, Longshot are definately pictured. You also see Nightcrawler's tail? I'm assuming the other 2 faces visable are Dazzler and Havok.

			*	*	*

01 Jul 2007 10:44 am 
By jephyork
Director

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "passing by the X-Men". Like, walking past them in the street? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

01 Jul 2007 11:09 am 
By RipStryken

Exactly. I should have mentioned that.

			*	*	*

01 Jul 2007 11:31 am 
By Dhall

I can confirm this. The issue was published April 1989. Presumably it's post-inferno, prob. sometime during the period shown in UX @ 13, UX 244, UX 245. (Post Inferno, but with Rogue still with the team, so before UX 246.)

			*	*	*

03 Jul 2007 10:46 am 
By RipStryken

From what I can tell, the X-Men are still in Australia for 244-245 and UX@13. The scene in Punisher takes place in New York, as "The Board" has a meeting set up a couple panels later in Central Park. 

Any thoughts?

			*	*	*

03 Jul 2007 01:28 pm 
By Starman

As the X-Men were co-operating with Gateway back then, I don't see that as much as a problem.

- Stefan 

"When it comes to reassuring a traumatized 19-year-old, I'm about as expert as a palsy victim doing brain surgery with a pipe wrench." 
- John Hartigan in Sin City (2005)

			*	*	*

03 Jul 2007 02:09 pm 
By rhod

I'm sure I remember something from a letters page around this time to the effect that these are ordinary people in fancy dres rather than the actual x-men - I'll have a dig and see if i can confirm...

"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Subject: various corrections

Jun 30, 2007 12:17 pm 
By Dhall

RAMROD II 
**DD 103-FB 
DD 103 
DD 105 
 

STILT-MAN/WILBUR DAY 
DD 8 
DD 26-FB 
DD 26 
DD 27 
DD@ 1-FB 
DD@ 1 
DD 48 
DD 67 
**DD 102-FB 
DD 102 
CA 191 

GREY GARGOYLE/PAUL PIERRE DUVAL/"PAUL ST. PIERRE" 
 
CA 139 
CA 140 
CA 141 
CA 142 
**M/TU 13-FB 
M/TU 13 

*LION GOD 
A 112 
A 114 

CAPTAIN OMEN/NATHANIEL OMEN (ADD REAL NAME) 
H2 164 
H2 165 

*OMEN, FILIUS 
H2 164 
H2 165 

CARTER, MR. 
CA 162-FB 
CA 162 
CA 163 

CARTER, MRS. 
CA 162-FB 
CA 162 
CA 163 

Isnt the Suwan in Strange Tales also a robot? 

SUWAN 
INV 41 
YC 4 
**CA 166-FB (Yellow Claw puts Suwan into suspended animation) 
ST 160-FB-BTS 
ST 161-FB-BTS 
ST 161 
ST 163 
ST 164/2 
ST 166/2 
ST 167 
CA 165 
CA 166 
CA 167 

Yellow Claw 
YC 4 
YC 4/3 
YC 4/4 
YC 4/6 
**CA 166-FB 
M/:LG 3 
M/:LG 7 ~ M/:LG 3 
M/:LG 3 
CA 164 
CA 165 
CA 166 
CA 167 

Vashti 
SUB-M 61 
SUB-M 62 
SUB-M 63 
**DEF 7-BTS 
SUB-M 64 
SUB-M 66 
SVTU 13 


IGOR 
MIKHLO 
PEATOR 

these three do NOT appear in DEF 7 or DEF 8. 

RED GHOST/IVAN KRAGOFF 
FF 13 
FF 29 
A 12 
FF@ 3 
IM 15-FB-BTS 
IM 15 
IM 16 
M/S&L 1/3-FB 
M/S&L 1/3 
**DEF 8-FB (TEAMS UP WITH Attuma) 
DEF 7 
DEF 8 

ATTUMA 
SUB-M 37 
SUB-M 56-BTS 
**DEF 8-FB 
DEF 7 
DEF 8 
SVTU 1 
SVTU 2 
SVTU 3 

WONG 
M/PRM 7 
M/PRM 8 
DEF 7 
**DEF 8 
DEF 8/2 
A 116 
DEF 12 
M/PRM 12 

Black Knight V 
A 100 
DEF 4-FB 
DEF 4 
A 157-FB 
DEF 8 <-SHOULD BE DEF 8/2 
DEF 11 

BLACK KNIGHT V STATUE 
A 157-FB 
{DEF 4} 
A 117-FB 
DEF 5 
DEF 6 
DEF 8 
**DEF 8/2 
A 116 
DEF 9 
DEF 10 

DORMAMMU 
M/FEA 2 
A 115 
DEF 8/2 
A 116 
DEF 9 <-s/b DEF 9-BTS 
A 117 
DEF 10 
A 118 
DRSTR2 6 

SUB-MARINER 
DEF 3 
DEF 4 
**A 117-FB 
DEF 5 
DEF 6 

The Following characters do NOT appear in A 117 (except in a fb to previously seen material): 
Black Panther 
Doctor Strange 
Hawkeye 
Iron Man 
Mantis 
Silver Surfer 
Vision II 

*DR. MYNDE/LEONARD MYNDE 
CM 24-FB 
CM 24 

*MADAME SYNN 
CM 24 

*SAVANNAH, BENJAMIN 
CM 24-FB 
CM 22 
CM 23 
CM 24 
CM 25 

SAVANNAH, LOU-ANN 
CM 22 
CM 23 
CM 24 
CM 25 
**CM 25-FB (She stands on street corner, while a Skrull drives off with Rick.) 
CM 26 
CM 27 

JONES, RICK 
CM 24 
CM 25 
**CM 25-FB 
**CM 25 
CM 26 
CM 27 

**SKRAGG 
CM 25 
CM 25-FB 
CM 25 
CM 26 


SAUNDERS, KRISTINE 
ASM 125-FB <- s/b ASM 125-FB-BTS 
{ASM 124} 
ASM 125 

HIGH EVOLUTIONARY 
WLOCK 1 
H2 158 
**WLOCK 3 
WLOCK 5 ?S/B WLOCK 5-FB 
WLOCK 8 

Rhino 
H2 157 
H2 158 
WLOCK 3 <-REMOVE, HE IS NOT IN THIS ISSUE (except as a fb to events from H2 158.) 
H2 158 

WARLOCK II/ADAM WARLOCK 
WLOCK 3 
WLOCK 4 
**WLOCK 5-FB 
WLOCK 5 
**WLOCK 6-FB 
WLOCK 6 
WLOCK 7 


BRUTE/REED RICHARDS COUNTER-EARTH 
**WLOCK 6-FB 
WLOCK 6 
WLOCK 7 

MAN-BEAST 
T 134 
T 135 
M/PRM 1 
M/PRM 2 
WLOCK 1 
WLOCK 2 
**WLOCK 3 (As revealed in Wlock 8, he is inhabiting the body of Rex Carpenter in issues 3-8) 
**WLOCK 4 
** WLOCK 5 
**WLOCK 6 
** WLOCK 7 
WLOCK 8 

*CARPENTER, REX|COUNTER-EARTH 
WLOCK 3 
WLOCK 4 
WLOCK 5 
WLOCK 6 
WLOCK 7 
WLOCK 8 
H2 177 
H2 178 

*CARPENTER, ASTRELLA|COUNTER-EARTH 
WLOCK 4 
WLOCK 6 
WLOCK 7 
WLOCK 8 
H2 177 
H2 178 

*PROFESSOR VON DOOM|COUNTER-EARTH 
WLOCK 6-FB 
WLOCK 4 
WLOCK 5 
WLOCK 6 
WLOCK 7 



*DRAKE, IVORY DAN 
SSD 1 

*MC SHANE, PATRICK 
SSD 1 
SSD 2 
SSD 3 
SSD 4 
SSD 5 
DD 111-FB 

*EL MONTANO 
SSD 2-FB 
SSD 2 


MANDRILL/HENSLEY FARGUS 
SSD 4 
SSD 5 ?Remove, he is not in this issue 
DD 108-BTS 
DD 109-BTS 
M/TIO 3-BTS 
DD 110

Last edited by Dhall on Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:36 pm, edited 5 times in total. 

			*	*	*

Jul 01, 2007 10:38 pm 
By Arthur
Director

RAMROD II 
**DD 103-FB 
DD 103 
DD 105 

Scanning this flashback and one thing lead to another... 

In the flashback of Ramrods background in DD 103 (10:3  12:2), his creators are shown in semi-shadow: Kerwin Broderick (Matt Murdochs senior partner at this time), and Moondragon. Moondragons and Brodericks meeting is detailed in DD 106 

MOONDRAGON/HEATHER DOUGLAS 
{IM 54} 
**DD 106-FB (3:2  4:4) Moondragon meets Kerwin Broderick 
**DD 103-FB (10:3  12:2) with Kerwin Broderick when giving Ramrod his orders 
DD 103-BTS 
DD 105 

While Brodericks partners are in the MCP, (Larry Cranston whom Matt Murdock replaced, and Jason Sloan), Broderick himself is not. 

**BRODERICK, KERWIN J. THE MAN 
**DD 106-FB (3:2  4:4) Background and meeting Moodragon 
**DD 97 in shadow, takes Mordecai Jones from hospital and changes him to Dark Messiah 
**DD 98-BTS responsible for Dark Messiah 
**DD 101 in shadow dealing with Angar 
**DD 103-FB (10:3  12:2) giving Ramrod his orders 
**DD 103-BTS caused Ramrod to go after Daredevil 
**DD 104 in shadow meeting with Kraven 
**DD 105 
**DD 106 

As for the other partners, (fallout from the research into Kerwin Broderick) ... 

SLOAN, JASON 
DD 95 
*DD 96 should be removed. Jason Sloan does not appear in DD 96 
DD 97 

Larry Cranston, the partner replaced by Matt was the third Mr. Fear. DD 91-FB (19:5-19:6) reveals that he was present when Starr Saxon (MR. FEAR II) killed Zoltan Drago (MR. FEAR). 

[b]MR. FEAR/ZOLTAN DRAGO[/b] 
DRSTR3 33/2-FB 
DD 6-FB 
{DD 6} 
**DD 91-FB killed by Starr Saxon 

MR. FEAR III/PROF. LAWRENCE "LARRY" CRANSTON 
OE 1-FB 
**DD 91-FB Cranston sees MR. FEAR (Drago) killed by MR. FEAR II (Starr) 
{DD 88} 
DD 89 
DD 90 
DD 91

			*	*	*

Jul 02, 2007 8:36 pm 
By Arthur
Director

Regarding the Stilt-Man fb in DD102...The flashback shows Stilt-man kidnapping a Doctor Klaxton and his daughter. Dr. Klaxton is the person from whom Stilt-Man stole from originally (although the name was spelled differently in DD 8). 

**KAXTON, DR. 
**DD 8 
**DD 102-FB

			*	*	*

Jul 03, 2007 8:45 pm 
By metaldragon

Speaking of Ramrod and Kerwin J. Broderick... In DD 105, Moondragon tells Daredevil she created Mordecai the Dark Messiah, Ramrod II, and Angar the Screamer and set them loose to "cleanse" the city of "Thanos' thralls". Since she was also responsible for their presence and actions, shouldn't she have a BTS listing alongside Broderick in the issues Dark Messiah and Angar the Screamer appear too?

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Jul 03, 2007 9:12 pm 
By metaldragon

I also noticed there doesn't appear to be a listing for the Dark Messiah here either. 

**DARK MESSIAH/JONES, MORDECAI 
**DD 97 
**DD 98 
**DD 105 
**DD 106 

Does anyone know if he has had any other appearances? 


Kerwin Broderick also appears in DD 107 where he melds with Terrex and then dies at the end of the issue.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Subject: What if? 4

Jul 04, 2007 12:26 am 
By Dhall

There are a lot of characters who do not have a listing for this issue. 

Rather than me trying to make educated guesses on where this book belongs in their listings, I'm just going to list out the names, and you guys can work out the placements. 

Appearances need to be added for: 
CHURCHILL, SIR WINSTON 
KENNEDY, JOHN FITZGERALD 
MISS AMERICA 
SPITFIRE 
TORO 
TRUMAN, HARRY S (Appears in 1945, in the flesh, but also appears BTS sending a telegram to the Invaders after the war is over.) 
UATU 
UNION JACK II 


Characters that do not seem to be in the MCP (or that I've missed finding.) 
ADAM-II 
Braun, Eva 
Gunsche, Major Otto 
Horton, Professor Phineas T. (I didn't see a listing for him) 
McArthur, General Douglas 
Nimitz, Fleet Admiral Chester W. (doing the actual signing for the Americans) 
Shigemitsu, Mamoru, Japans foreign minister (wearing top hat) 
Umezu,General Yoshijiro Chief of the Army General Staff (Japan's General in charge at the surrender signing ceremony - presumably that is him in the general's hat.) 


Rawlings, Major 
Farrow, Col. 

These last two were in a few issues of the Invaders, if I remember correctly.

			*	*	*

Jul 04, 2007 12:41 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

What if...? #4, the only issue of WI? to have actually happened! 

I suggested placements for almost all of these guys last... September. However, they're spread around all kinds of different topics , some in Marvel Universe & some in Issue Analysis. The majority of it and a breakdown can be found here. 

Rawlings & Farrow; I don't think I ever suggested anything for them.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Jul 04, 2007 7:43 pm
By Dhall

Hmmn...looks like there may end up being some duplication of work, until the listings are caught up with the boards. No problems though. Thanks Fury!

			*	*	*

Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:51 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

No problem!

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Thread 9

Subject: M/PRM corrections

Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:16 pm 
By Dhall

**STODDARD, ETHAN 
M/PRM 4-FB 
M/PRM 3 
M/PRM 4 

**Doan, Bethel 
M/PRM 4-FB 
M/PRM 4 

**SLIGGUTH 
M/PRM 5-FB 
M/PRM 5 
M/PRM 6 

**EBORA 
M/PRM 5 
M/PRM 6 

UMAR 
ST 155/2 
ST 156/2 
DRSTR 172 
DRSTR 173 
*M/PRM 5-BTS 
DRSTR2 6 
DRSTR2 7 

**NGABTHOTH 
M/PRM 6 
M/PRM 7 

**FRAMES, JOHHNY 
M/PRM 6 

**GORDON, HENRY 
M/PRM 7 
M/PRM 8 

**BLONDINE 
M/PRM 7-FB 
M/PRM 7 
M/PRM 8 

**DAGOTH 
M/PRM 7-FB 
M/PRM 7 

**KATHULOS 
M/PRM 7-BTS 
M/PRM 8 

**LIVING BUDDHA 
M/PRM 9 
M/PRM 10 

BARON MORDO 
 
ST 161/2 
ST 162/2 
M/FEA 1/3 
*M/PRM 10 
M/PRM 13 
M/PRM 14 
DRSTR2 10 
DRSTR2 11 

WONG 
 
M/PRM 6 
M/PRM 7 
M/PRM 8 
*M/PRM 10 
DEF 7 
DEF 8/2 

Dr. STRANGE II 
 
M/PRM 9 
M/PRM 10 
*M/PRM 11 
DEF 8 
DEF 8/2 

HAMIR 
ST 130/2 
ST 132/2 
ST 133/2 
ST 134/2 
ST 136/2 
ST 137/2 
ST 138/2 
ST 141/2 
*M/PRM 11 
M/GN 23 
DRSTR3 84 

SHUMA-GORATH II 
M/PRM 14 
M/PRM 3-BTS 
M/PRM 4-BTS 
M/PRM 5-BTS 
M/PRM 6-BTS 
M/PRM 7-BTS 
M/PRM 8-BTS 
M/PRM 9 
M/PRM 10 
{M/PRM 11} <- Delete, Shuma-Gorath is not in this issue.

			*	*	*

Thread 10

Subject: Villains in Heroes For Hire v3 #1

Aug 28, 2006 9:37 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

It's been a good several weeks since we've had a scene with a bunch of villains who need identification, but here we have Heroes For Hire v3 #1. There are eight villains with Vienna. As far as I can tell, five are named: Grindhouse, Shockwave, Goldbug, Equinox, and Ghost Maker. Who are the others?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Aug 28, 2006 11:28 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Ummm... v3? What's meant to be v2?

			*	*	*

Aug 29, 2006 1:46 am 
By dubj1979

v2 I belaive would be the series that ran in 97-98 most noticably by john ostrander...it went to 19 and an anual

			*	*	*

Aug 29, 2006 4:19 am 
By JD

Then, what would be v1 ? the 70s Power Man series was called "Hero for Hire" (LCHFH, I presume), not "Heroes for Hire" (HFH seems to be the 1997 series).

			*	*	*

Aug 29, 2006 7:13 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

It should be v2 -- slips of the finger, I guess...  

Now...any idea about the villains?Paul B.

			*	*	*

Aug 29, 2006 9:36 am 
By Mikhail

Bloodstain, from Web #81.

			*	*	*

Dec 29, 2006 12:35 pm 
By jannepie

I don't have the issue but I'd love to help out. Could someone provide scans?

			*	*	*

Jul 05, 2007 2:32 am 
By jannepie

Mikhail wrote:
>>>
Bloodstain, from Web #81.
Actually, I think he was called Bloodshed. 
<<<

Bloodstain is a deceased foe of U.S.Agent. 

Edit: The other two are named Shadow Slasher and Kogar.

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Subject: What If? v2 #82

Jul 07, 2007 10:33 am 
By jephyork
Director

What If vol.2 #82 has a two-panel flashback, to well before the story's point of divergence (which was ASM #1), of a young Jonah Jameson covertly photographing some Klansmen burning a cross in a field with mountains in the background -- and then fleeing in a car, chased by those same Klansmen, who are driving a truck and brandishing torches. 

Frederick Foswell tells Peter that Jonah has had a distrust and hatred of people in masks all his life, and this flashback was shown. 

Has this event in Jonah's life ever been mentioned or shown before? I'm no expert, but it doesn't sound familiar to me at all... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 12

Subject: Villains at Satan's Circus in Underworld #3

Jul 06, 2007 3:04 am 
By jannepie

I couldn't find a topic for this, so here we go. In Underworld #3, there was another gathering of super-criminals. 

Page 4: Rhino 

Page 5, panel 1: Splice, Chameleon, Whirlwind, Man-Bull, Doctor Octopus (?), Shocker, Kangaroo, Tombstone, Electro and several unmasked criminals 

Page 6: Hydro-Man 

Page 8, panel 1: Doc Ock's tendril (?), Man-Bull and one unidentified 

Page 8, panel 2: Splice 

Page 8, panel 3: Two unidentified. I'm thinking the left one is Snake Marston? 

Page 8, panel 4: Hydro-Man 

So, did I miss anyone? Can anyone tell who were the ones I didn't recognize? 

I'm having even worse time trying to recognize the villains in #4-5, but I'm saving that for later. 

			*	*	*

Jul 06, 2007 2:04 pm 
By jannepie

The artist, Staz Johnson, helped me to identify these characters. The three characters that I didn't recognize in page 8 were all made up generic criminals. 

He also identified the villains in the final page of #4. The ones I recognized were Trapster, Judge, Gibbon, Slyde and Shocker, some with new costume designs. The ones whose names Mr. Johnson gave were Dragonfly, Nekra (in the back), Roughouse (the bulk one), Plantman (the plant one), Titania (in the middle), White Rabbit (wearing fur) and Black Talon (in the front). The armor guy in front of Nekra and the albino vampire behind Black Talon were generic characters. 

Big thanks to Mr. Johnson for the help!

			*	*	*

Jul 07, 2007 2:03 am 
By dimadick

"Dragonfly" 

Which one? There is Veronica Dultry of the Ani-Men and the Masters of Evil who looks like a humanoid insect. For an image of her see: http://www.marvel.com/universe/Dragonfl ... ica_Dultry) 

There is Andre Le Roux, a Marvel UK characters. He is an African American from The Bronx who acts as part time street fighter and part time pimp. For an image of him see: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/dgnflyss.htm 

There is Karsano of the True Believers, a male Asian martial artist and Spider-Man villain. He was last seen dead but that never prevented guys like Spot from returning. For an image of him see the bottom section of: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/dragflym.htm#karsano 

There is his former lover and eventual successor Meiko Yin, a Korean cousin of Angela Yin of the Daily Bugle. A female martial artist and renegade member of the True Believers. For images of her in action see: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/dragflym.htm 

There is also a SHIELD agent with that codename from the "Soldier X" series but I could not find an image of him. 

Which of them fits the description?

			*	*	*

Jul 07, 2007 9:45 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Dimadick, 

There's simply no need to post a link to the Appendix for every character that's mentioned in the forums here. We get the point.

			*	*	*

Jul 07, 2007 4:33 pm 
By dimadick

"We get the point." 

I am afraid you don't. I was searching for images for visual comparison, not the particular history of any of them.

			*	*	*

Jul 07, 2007 11:29 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

dimadick wrote:
>>>
"We get the point."

I am afraid you don't.
<<<

No, I really think I do. If you'll search through the archives, I think you'll find that almost half of your posts contain a link to the Appendix. The point is that you like the Appendix.

			*	*	*

Jul 08, 2007 5:12 am 
By jannepie

Dragonfly is the female villain with wings, Veronica Dultry.

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Subject: Steve Engleheart, Jim Starlin, and Al Milgrom in Master of K

Jul 09, 2007 4:32 am 
By Enda80

Steve Engleheart, Jim Starlin, and Al Milgrom in Master of Kung Fu#17 appear as junkies who attack Shang-Chi. Were these junkies given names? If not, we can just presume that these three on Earth-616 hit the skids.

			*	*	*

Jul 09, 2007 6:52 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

If you've read the book, you'll know the answer to that question. If you haven't read the book, then you're stating _as fact_ something you've heard from a secondary source. 

If the latter, you're damaging your credibility. Since you don't alert us to the fact that it's from a secondary source, we don't know in the future if what you state as facts are truly "facts," and can't update the Project based on your posts.

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Subject: Flashbacks in FALLEN SON 5

Jul 08, 2007 4:37 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

FALLEN SON: THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN AMERICA #5 contains several flashback scenes that might at first glance be dismissed as "generic," but we might be able to place most of them in MU chronology. 

Page 6 
Steve Rogers and the Falcon fight Iron Hand Hauptmann, Gruenig, and a couple of other baddies from CAPTAIN AMERICA #118. Can this scene be dropped between pages/panels of that issue? 

Pages 8-9 
Cap leads U.S. troops in a raid on a German prison during WWII. Thoughts on placement? Col_Fury, perhaps? 

Page 11 
Cap, Bucky, Namor, the original Human Torch, Toro, the original Angel, Spitfire, and the second Union Jack battle Heinrich Zemo, the Red Skull, and German soldiers during WWII. Thoughts on placement? Col? 

Page 13 
Carrying the block of ice containing Cap, Namor runs toward frightened Eskimos. This goes between panels 2 and 3 of page 3 of AVENGERS #4. 

Pages 20-21 
A poster-like "symbolic splash" illustration of Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Giant-Man, Wasp, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, and Hulk, with Cap yelling "Avengers Assemble." A non-event; not placeable.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jul 08, 2007 5:56 pm 
By Enda80

Page 11 
Cap, Bucky, Namor, the original Human Torch, Toro, the original Angel, Spitfire, and the second Union Jack battle Heinrich Zemo, the Red Skull, and German soldiers during WWII. Thoughts on placement? Col? 

Thanks for pointing this out, but how do you know it was the second Union Jack? I would it after Sgt. Fury#8 for Zemo.

			*	*	*

Jul 08, 2007 9:57 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I wasn't able to get to the shop this week, but I now plan on reading this first when I do make it in. Thanks! 

Off the top of my head, pg8-pg9 would be in early '45. 

As for Union Jack, I'd have to say it's the second. The first only came out of retirement & was active as Union Jack for one adventure in WWII, during the original Invaders series. The same adventure crippled him & gave Spitfire her powers, so if the two are appearing in costume at the same time, it would have to be the second Union Jack.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Jul 10, 2007 3:52 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
Pages 8-9 
Cap leads U.S. troops in a raid on a German prison during WWII.
Historically, there's only a handful of concentration camps liberated by American troops that take place before Cap 'died' the first time, meaning before 18 April 1945.(There were a lot liberated by Russian troops prior to this, but I'm looking for US troops) We've already seen Cap helping with the liberation of Diebenwald & Bitburg in other comics, so I'm going to suggest this is on 11 April at Buchenwald, between them. 
Paul Bourcier wrote:
Page 11 
Cap, Bucky, Namor, the original Human Torch, Toro, the original Angel, Spitfire, and the second Union Jack battle Heinrich Zemo, the Red Skull, and German soldiers during WWII. 
I think this works nicely sometime after TB -1-FB, where Zemo killed Citizen V... almost like Cap got the Invaders together to go after him, once they figured out where he was. 

Some placement suggestions! 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
... 
CA:ME (01/07/43) 
CABT-BTS 
CA 262-FB (1943) 
*FS-DOCA: IM (11)-FB 
CA 219-FB (1944) 
CLAN 8-FB (1944) 
... 
CA: SL2 12 (23-29)-FB 
CA 237-FB (spring/45) 
*FS-DOCA: IM (8-9)-FB 
CA: SL2 7/2 (9-10) (04/12/45) 
 


BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN BUCKY BARNES 
... 
CA:ME (01/07/43) 
CABT 
*FS-DOCA: IM-FB 
CA 219-FB (1944) 
CA@ 9/2-FB (04/44) 
 


SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
... 
CA5 5-FB (11/42) 
N@ 2/2 (1943) 
*FS-DOCA: IM-FB 
CLAND 8-FB (1944) 
BP4 21-FB 
M/U 1-FB 
 


HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND 
... 
CA: SL2 4 
CA5 5-FB (11/42) 
*FS-DOCA: IM-FB 
CLAND 8-FB (1944) 
BP4 21-FB 
M/U 1-FB 
 


TORO/TOM RAYMOND 
... 
CA5 5-FB (11/42) 
*FS-DOCA: IM-FB 
M/U 1-FB 
 


UNION JACK II/BRIAN FALSWORTH 
... 
INV 41 
*FS-DOCA: IM-FB 
BP4 21-FB 
M/U 1-FB 
... 

SPITFIRE/LADY JACQUELINE FALSWORTH CRICHTON 
... 
INV 41 
M/CP 89/3-FB 
*FS-DOCA: IM-FB 
BP4 21-FB 
M/U 1-FB 
... 

ANGEL/THOMAS HALLOWAY (1940's hero) 
... 
MARVELS 1 
*FS-DOCA: IM-FB 
CV 1-FB 
... 

RED SKULL II/JOHANN SCHMIDT 
... 
CABT 
CA 262-FB (1943) 
*FS-DOCA: IM-FB 
CA 219-FB (1944) 
CA 220-FB 
... 

ZEMO XII/BARON HEINRICH ZEMO 
... 
TB -1-FB 
*FS-DOCA: IM-FB 
A 56 (7)-FB 
...Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Jul 10, 2007 7:00 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Cool. I knew we could count on you to find places for those WWII scenes, Col! 

BTW, I'd suggest FS:DOCA 1-5 as the codes for the Fallen Son issues.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jul 10, 2007 8:51 am 
By Somebody
Director

Aren't they listed as five one-shots, rather than #1-5? Certainly, there's no numbering anywhere on either cover for any of the issues, so 1-5 would probably confuse people once memories have faded a tad.

			*	*	*

Jul 10, 2007 8:54 am 
By jephyork
Director

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure the indicia uses issue numbers rather than subtitles. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jul 10, 2007 10:19 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

That is correct.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Subject: Civil War: War Crimes [SPOILERS]

Dec 20, 2006 11:57 pm 
By Mikhail

Otherwise known as "Omigod! They killed Kenny, I mean Slyde!"

So besides Trapster, Slyde, Hammerhead, and the Enforcers, there's a huge mass of villains seen towards the end that need identifying. 

Page 28, Panel 1: new Cat-Man, new Bird-Man, Leader(??), Ringmaster, Override, new Ape-Man, Bella Donna (??)

Panel 3: Woman in Armor, Bloodlust, Squid, Guy with Headband, Mauler, Electro, the Great Gambeenos

Panel 4: Cape Guy, Stiletto, Guy in Suit, ??, Clown, ??, Answer, Spot, Bella Donna (??), Aura, Override

			*	*	*

Dec 22, 2006 10:09 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
the Enforcers
<<<

Another problem with Civil War: War Crimes (aside from the ones involving the T-Bolts noted on another thread). In CW:WC 1, we see Fancy Dan and Montana -- they're specifically mentioned by name. They're accompanied by a third Enforcer who looks like Ox but is never named (except as "pardner"). Could we be seeing a new Ox here, a replacement for the Ox who'd have to be training with the Thunderbolt Army at this point? Remember that Slyde is another member of that T-Bolt Army in the same issues of TB as Ox, and Slyde dies in CW:WC 1 at a time when the other Ox (if that is indeed his assumed name) is in stir with the Enforcers.

>>>
the Great Gambeenos 
<<<

You mean the Great Gambonnos. 

You did a better job of identifying these guys than I did. Man, how many of these group scenes are we going to get? 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 23, 2006 12:00 am 
By Mikhail

Doctor Octopus was also seen in prison in Iron Man #14, when he should've been with the Army. Maybe the Thunderbolts Army guys were housed among the regular prisoner populations when they weren't off training. Or, if we could put War Crimes after the Wellspring arc in T-Bolts, then maybe Slyde and Ox abandoned the cause like Doc Ock did -- Ox was recaptured and thrown back into prison and Slyde remained on the loose until his ill-fated encounter with Hammerhead.

			*	*	*

Dec 23, 2006 1:01 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
Doctor Octopus was also seen in prison in Iron Man #14, when he should've been with the Army. Maybe the Thunderbolts Army guys were housed among the regular prisoner populations when they weren't off training. 
<<<

I think we can solve this one by treating the three scenes in the first few pages of IM4 14 as flashbacks occurring a different points in time. They certainly seem to be framed that way, as these three scenes contain a single uninterrupted narrative presumably set in the "present." I have to confess, though, I can't quite tell who the narrator is.  Anyway, I'm inclined to drop each scene on these three pages into a previous time slot during CW in which it makes sense. 

Unfortunately, we'd want to see the third scene (Zemo and Stark in the Criminal Rehab unit containg Doc Ock and others) before TB 104-109, which in turn would be prior to CW 5. BUT the second scene (Stark at the superhuman training grounds in Virginia) would have to occur after Stature registers in CW 5 because she's in that government training scene. 

[Incidentally, Wonder Man is in that training scene as well, which means he's recovered from his "stable condition" from CW:FL 8/3-FB (a result of the events of CW:FL 7/3). Spidey's chronology in CW:FL and ASM force CW 5 after that injury.] 

If we can take the liberty to not only treat those first three scenes from IM4 14 as flashbacks, but to rearrange their chronological order, we might solve some of these conundrums. 

A proposal... 

IM4 14-FB (1:1-2:2) -- Stark meets with Reed, Carol, Bishop, Anita, and Radioactive Man 

IM4 14-FB (3:1-3:2) -- Stark and Zemo check on the criminal rehab unit holding Doc Ock and other prospective Thunderbolt Army villains 

TB 104-109 -- Thunderbolt Army villains (including Doc Ock, Ox, Slyde)train and deal with the Wellspring threat, Atlas stripped of ionic energy and unconscious at large size, Songbird et al meet Killerbolts for first time 

CW:WC 1 (1-24) -- Slyde dies; if it's Ox here, then some temporal references may bite the dust 

CW 5 -- Cloak and Dagger captured, Stature registers, Happy is fine, Killerbolts working with Thunderbolt Army (incl. recovered Atlas, fingers crossed) 

CW:WC 1 (25-35) -- Newspaper reports capture of Cloak and Dagger 

IM4 14-FB (2:3-2:4) -- Stark watches Stature train at government training grounds 

IM4 13-14 -- Happy injured, Stark visits him in hospital 

In all of the IM4 14 scenes, flashback and present, Stark appears to be wearing the same suit, but I presume we're either seeing very similar suits or the same suit worn on several different days spread out over time. 

Isn't CW fun?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 23, 2006 1:41 pm 
By Mikhail

Ah, well the narrator was supposed to be Invisible Woman, invisibly following Stark around trying to get him alone.

			*	*	*

Dec 24, 2006 2:07 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yes, I see that now that I re-read the last portion of the comic. I should've seen that before, although Sue's narrative was stretched over several scenes mixed in with other dialog that I found slightly confusing. 

Now, having settled that it's Sue, then the whole of IM4 14 has to occur on one day, and that's definitely a problem. Let's recap: 

IM4 13 (11-21) must occur after CW 5, given Happy's, Stature's, and Spidey's chronologies; Happy's hale and hearty while Stature's joining the registration forces and Spidey becomes a fugitive in the first 17 pages of CW 5, which all occur the same day, albeit woven around scenes in other books. In those first 17 pages, we see the Killerbolts mixed in with other T-Bolts, suggesting that CW 5 occurs after the end of TB 109 (which, BTW, in turn occurs after CW:CS 1, in which Venom/Gargan is recruited). Also in those first 17 pages of CW 5, Cloak and Dagger are captured, placing this just before CW:WC 1 (25-30). That means that Slyde's death in CW:WC 1 (15-18) must occur at least a week before CW 5, since "a week" separates pages 21 and 22 of CW:WC 1. And since that death scene must postdate Slyde's appearance in TB 107, the Wellspring event in TB 106-108 must occur before CW 5. And because Atlas and M.A.C.H. IV appear in CW 4 (15-17p1), TB 106-108 can be placed between page 17, panel 1 of CW 4 and page 1 of CW 5. 

With TB 106-108 occurring before CW 5 and IM4 14 occurring after CW 5, it's impossible for Zemo to appear in IM4 14, unless... 
(1) somehow he's back from wherever he was whisked away to in TB 108 and has rejoined the government registration effort; OR 
(2) the "Zemo" we see in IM4 14 is an LMD or Thor-type robot of Reed's and Tony's creation intended to keep reforming villains in line. 
In either case, the government would still have to be working on rehabbing villains such as Doc Ock and Griffin after the Wellspring event and the recruitment of Killerbolts. 

So we're counting on these things happening to certain T-Bolts after TB 109: 
(1) Zemo returns and retakes command of the rehab project, which has become independent of the "new T-Bolts" core team initiative; he's seen after CW 5 in IM4 14 (or the government makes a new Zemo and that's what seen in IM4 14). 
(2) Instead of going to the Negative Zone prison, Joystick gets implanted with nannites and works for the government, despite her denunciation of Strucker as a "sellout"; she's seen in CW 5. 
(3) Atlas gets better and continues to work for the government; he's seen in CW 5. 

Ugh.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 26, 2006 2:10 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
With TB 106-108 occurring before CW 5 and IM4 14 occurring after CW 5, it's impossible for Zemo to appear in IM4 14, unless...
(1) somehow he's back from wherever he was whisked away to in TB 108 and has rejoined the government registration effort; OR
(2) the "Zemo" we see in IM4 14 is an LMD or Thor-type robot of Reed's and Tony's creation intended to keep reforming villains in line.
In either case, the government would still have to be working on rehabbing villains such as Doc Ock and Griffin after the Wellspring event and the recruitment of Killerbolts.

So we're counting on these things happening to certain T-Bolts after TB 109:
(1) Zemo returns and retakes command of the rehab project, which has become independent of the "new T-Bolts" core team initiative; he's seen after CW 5 in IM4 14 (or the government makes a new Zemo and that's what seen in IM4 14).
(2) Instead of going to the Negative Zone prison, Joystick gets implanted with nannites and works for the government, despite her denunciation of Strucker as a "sellout"; she's seen in CW 5.
(3) Atlas gets better and continues to work for the government; he's seen in CW 5.

Ugh.
<<<

Re: Zemo - no chance whatsoever. You forget the upcoming Zemo mini, which will finish AFTER CW - so if he gets back to the present, Fabian's not going to predate the actual present, since he's not that sort of writer. And there is, of course, the chance that he'll either die or stay dislocated in time. And I really don't like saying "Atlas got better" if it can be helped until and unless we see him better, it's quite possible someone - even Fabian, who picked up a plot thread from a mini no-one read five years later in Cable/DP, I remind you - will like playing with the idea of Atlas-Berg. 

On the rest, I don't have my comics here, so I'll have a look at this later and maybe comment.

			*	*	*

Dec 26, 2006 8:07 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay...here's another angle. After Slyde dies in CW:WC 1, the government gets someone else to put on the Slyde costume to join the Thunderbolts Army seen in TB 106-108. Baron Zemo can appear in IM4 14 after CW 5, and the Wellspring battle can happen after IM4 14. This move also leaves Ox free to join the TB Army after the conclusion of CW:WC 1. 

It seems adopting SLYDE II is a much cleaner way to deal with the continuity conundrum.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 26, 2006 8:21 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Well, given that it's a one-panel cameo in an arc which already introduced a new Whiplash, a new Blacklash, a new Porcupine, THREE new Beetles and probably several other new versions of old villains I've missed, I don't think it's much of a stretch, at least. And it does make everything else at least a bit cleaner, since if you do that there's an actual order to things, even if it's not quite the ideal order.

			*	*	*

Dec 27, 2006 12:31 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Wasn't Slyde also killed/resurrected/brainwashed by Hydra recently? The poor guy's having an awful tough time lately... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 27, 2006 12:42 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

And it does make everything else at least a bit cleaner, since if you do that there's an actual order to things, even if it's not quite the ideal order.

This new order also means that TB 109 is not the first time that Songbird sees that the Killerbolts have been added to the roster. Here's the new sequence: 

CIVIL WAR: CHOOSING SIDES #1 
Songbird and Radioactive Man recruit Venom/Gargan. 

CIVIL WAR #4 (21-22) 
Venom and Bullseye are now among the Thunderbolt Army. 

CIVIL WAR #5 (8) 
Venom and Bullseye are with the TB Army. 

THUNDERBOLTS #109 
The TB Army is reduced to a new core team. Songbird discovers that Venom and Bullseye are part of the new core team. (It's not the first time Venom and Bullseye worked with the Thunderbolts; just the first time they're core members, not just part of the large army.) 

I'll see if I can come up with any other monkey wrenches, but it looks like this Slyde II approach will work.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 27, 2006 1:15 pm 
By Somebody
Director

While there's a "week" or so between TB108 and TB109, you can't put the Choosing Sides story in there - Songbird's comatose for that week/fighting the Guardians inside the Gemworld. As far as I can tell, TB106-109 (20) must wholly take place after Songbird, Radioactive Man, Atlas & Joystick (why couldn't it have been Moonstone & Swordsman...)'s cameo in CW5. Which means that the Choosing Sides story has to take place during or shortly after the bannered Tbolts CW tie-in of TB103-105...


jephyork wrote:
>>>
Wasn't Slyde also killed/resurrected/brainwashed by Hydra recently? The poor guy's having an awful tough time lately...
<<<

So was Spot, who had been killed by Tombstone before and by Wolverine afterward - yet he's back again for Modok's Eleven. I'd consider giving him Mr Immortal's powers to explain it at this point...

			*	*	*

Dec 27, 2006 4:55 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
While there's a "week" or so between TB108 and TB109, you can't put the Choosing Sides story in there
<<<

I'm not sure if you think I was suggesting doing that, but I wasn't. TB 106-109 all should go after CW:CS 1. 

Here's a selected chronology that elaborates a little more: 

A4 22 (1-9) -- Murdock noted as being in prison; day before Registration becomes law 

DD2 86 -- Kingpin in Riker's; Murdock and Bullseye bust out of Riker's 

CW:WC 1 (3-14) -- In Riker's, Kingpin offers Stark help to find the fugitive Cap 

CW:WC 1 (15-18) -- Slyde killed 

CW:WC 1 (19-21) -- Ox and fellow Enforcers beat up by Kingpin in prison 

TB 104 -- Ox recruited into Thunderbolts army 

TB 105 -- Nighthawk still with the Resistance 

CW 4 (15-17p1) -- Nighthawk quits the Resistance 

CW:CS 1 -- Venom (Gargan) recruited into Thunderbolts army 

CW 4 (21-22) -- New recruits including Venom and Bullseye assembled by Tony and Reed 

HFH2 2 (6-22) -- Fury's intel says Venom and Bullseye are among Stark's recruits 

CW:WC 1 (22-24) -- Stark visits Kingpin at Riker's 

CW 5 (1-7) -- Nighthawk registers; Happy Hogan's fine 

CW 5 (8) -- Venom and Bullseye seen with Thunderbolts army; Atlas and Joystick here too 

CW 5 (13-16) -- Cap tells the Resistance that Cloak & Dagger are captured 

CW:WC 1 (25-30) -- Newspaper reports capture of Cloak & Dagger 

CW:WC 1 (31-35) -- Stark learns he's been played by Kingpin 

IM3 13 (11p5-14) -- Stark's doubts put him in a funk (maybe Kingpin's actions contribute to this) 

IM3 13 (15-21) -- Happy gets Stark out of funk, then gets badly injured in battle with Spymaster 

IM3 14 -- Zemo is in charge of Thunderbolts army 

TB 106-108 -- Ox still with Thunderbolts army; new Slyde part of army; Joystick betrays everyone; Atlas loses ionic energy; Zemo goes bye-bye; Songbird out of action 

CW:WC 1 (36) -- Ox back at Riker's following downsizing of Thunderbolts army 

TB 109 (1-20) -- Joystick incarcerated; Songbird back with Moonstone 

TB 109 (21-22) -- New T-Bolts core team formed, includes Venom and Bullseye 
(We'll see how Osborn's ongoing saga folds into this storyline.) 


The CW chronology is falling into place, not without some rough spots. 
We'll see how any of this week's comics (Black Panther? Heroes for Hire? Winter Soldier?) messes things up. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 27, 2006 5:13 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

>>>
DD2 86 -- Kingpin in Riker's; Murdock and Bullseye bust out of Riker's 
<<<

Okay, I haven't yet had a chance to pick up the "Civil War: War Crimes" one shot, or the latest issue of Thunderbolts, (Christmas holiday has limited my time to make a trip to the comic store, but I'll stop by tomorrow), so I may not be totally informed, but... 

In the Daredevil storyline from DD2 82-87, it was actually Daredevil and Punisher who escaped together from prison, not Daredevil and Bullseye. When last we saw Bullseye in the pages of Daredevil, he was left unconsious on the floor next to the Kingpin, (who was accidently shot in the leg by Bullseye, thus preventing Fisk from fleeing the prison). 

I believe Bullseye was drafted for the T-bolts straight from where he was in prison, (preview images from the upcoming Thunderbolts #110 seem to confirm this).

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Dec 27, 2006 5:58 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
The CW chronology is falling into place, not without some rough spots.
<<<

Where did you put IM/Cap: Casualties of War BTW? I'd put Cap's "we're past talking" in' IM14 as making that pre-IM14, but I'd like to know what you think.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
We'll see how any of this week's comics (Black Panther? Heroes for Hire? Winter Soldier?) messes things up. 
<<<

Hey, it's Hudlin's Black Panther. It WILL mess something up And You Know It 

			*	*	*

Dec 27, 2006 9:12 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
In the Daredevil storyline from DD2 82-87, it was actually Daredevil and Punisher who escaped together from prison, not Daredevil and Bullseye. When last we saw Bullseye in the pages of Daredevil, he was left unconsious on the floor next to the Kingpin, (who was accidently shot in the leg by Bullseye, thus preventing Fisk from fleeing the prison). 
<<<

Yup, you're absolutely right. I messed up that note and meant to say that Bullseye was seen in prison, making this before his TB recruitment.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Where did you put IM/Cap: Casualties of War BTW? I'd put Cap's "we're past talking" in IM14 as making that pre-IM14, but I'd like to know what you think. 
<<<

My entry for this issue reads, 
IRON MAN/CAPTAIN AMERICA: CASUALTIES OF WAR #1 
One day. This story occurs after Goliaths death and so must occur after Caps recovery following CW 4 (15-17). It is strongly implied that Spidey is still siding with registration, so this story must occur before ASM 535 (3-4). In the ruins of Avengers Mansion, Cap and Iron Man have a heart-to-heart talk about registration as a final attempt to work things out. After much discussion, the two engage in fisticuffs, then they go their separate ways. Green trees in New York. 

More specifically, I placed it just after Goliath's funeral in CW 4 (17p2-19p2), at about the time Sue was leaving Reed in CW 4 (19p3-20). 

In the sequence I posted, IM/CA:CW 1 would go between CW 4 (15-17p1) and CW:CS 1.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 27, 2006 9:45 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
In the Daredevil storyline from DD2 82-87...
<<<
<<<

That was Kevin, not me 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
Where did you put IM/Cap: Casualties of War BTW? I'd put Cap's "we're past talking" in IM14 as making that pre-IM14, but I'd like to know what you think. 
<<<

My entry for this issue reads,
IRON MAN/CAPTAIN AMERICA: CASUALTIES OF WAR #1
One day. This story occurs after Goliaths death and so must occur after Caps recovery following CW 4 (15-17). It is strongly implied that Spidey is still siding with registration, so this story must occur before ASM 535 (3-4). In the ruins of Avengers Mansion, Cap and Iron Man have a heart-to-heart talk about registration as a final attempt to work things out. After much discussion, the two engage in fisticuffs, then they go their separate ways. Green trees in New York.

More specifically, I placed it just after Goliath's funeral in CW 4 (17p2-19p2), at about the time Sue was leaving Reed in CW 4 (19p3-20).

In the sequence I posted, IM/CA:CW 1 would go between CW 4 (15-17p1) and CW:CS 1.
<<<

I read the Spider-Man line in exactly the opposite way - this is after Spider-Man's been carried into the antireg base bleeding profusely, and Cap's lambasting IM for bringing him to that point, with Spidey possibly still being in a bad way. And, in CW5, Cap hasn't recovered yet. His face is still cut and bruised, and his arm's in a sling.

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2006 3:08 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
I read the Spider-Man line in exactly the opposite way - this is after Spider-Man's been carried into the antireg base bleeding profusely, and Cap's lambasting IM for bringing him to that point, with Spidey possibly still being in a bad way
<<<

Let's review the dialog.

Cap says, "You're the one who's manipulating people, offering them health insurance and federal paychecks to sign their lives away."
["Manipulating" in the present tense suggests Tony's still manipulating Peter, although that's debatable.]

Cap continues, "What you did to Spider-Man is unconscionable. He wears his need for a father figure on his sleeve. And you played the role to the hilt to make him do what you asked."
[The "unconscionable" act here is obviously Stark's manipulation of Peter into revealing his identity publicly, thus endangering his family. There's nothing here to suggest the unconscionable act was sending goons after Peter to beat him up.]

Tony replies, "Peter's an adult. He made his own decisions."
[It's pretty clear that Tony's defending Peter's actions to side with him and expose his identity, and this suggests to me that Peter's still with him. Nothing suggests that "decisions" also refers to Peter's decision to leave Stark, which Tony would consider foolish.]


Somebody wrote:
>>>
And, in CW5, Cap hasn't recovered yet. His face is still cut and bruised, and his arm's in a sling.
<<<

Now that's a good point! I believe you're stating that the bandage and sling we see in CW 5 is to treat injuries sustained in the battle in CW 4 and that Cap can't appear between CW 4 and CW 5 without visible injuries. 

Let's review a (simplified) sequence... 

CW 4 -- Battle in which Goliath is killed; Cap is injured; the Thing fights on the registration side 

ASM 534 ~ FF 539 -- Thing quits and refuses to fight for either side; Cap is fine here and gives Spidey a good fight 

ASM 535 -- Spidey defects from Stark's side 

CW 5 -- Tony's goon squad pursues Spidey and beats him up; Cap in a sling 

As you can see, Cap already appears fine between CW 4 and CW 5. 

Could the sling and face bandage in CW 5 (and PWJ2 1) be the result of another injury, one different from those sustained in CW 4? Let's look at the nature of Cap's post-CW 4 injury as seen elsewhere: 

In CW 4, he's shown with a head bandage and a cast on his right leg. 
In CW:X 2, he's shown with both arms bandaged. Neither scene shows a sling. 


Another interesting thing about IM/CA:CW 1 is its placement relative to HFH2 2-3. In HFH2 2, Tony lets Misty go looking for Cap to try to resolve things, although this turns out to be an underhanded scheme to capture Cap through Paladin, as revealed in HFH2 3. There may be a span of time between pages 5 and 6 of HFH2 2, during which time Misty and company would be trying to gather intel about Caps location. 

Both IM/CA:CW 1 and HFH2 2-3 occur after Goliath's death, as that event is noted in both stories. It's worth noting that HFH2 2 likely begins the day after Goliath's death, since Misty has a newspaper that reports Bill's demise. So does it make sense for IM/CA:CW 1 to go before FHF2 2, between pages of HFH2 2, or after HFH2 3? 

Also interesting is that, throughout this time, Stark was working a totally different angle to get to Cap -- through the Kingpin in CW:WC 1. (Figured I bring this discussion back to that.)

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2006 9:08 pm 
By CylverSaber

Mikhail wrote:
>>>
Otherwise known as "Omigod! They killed Kenny, I mean Slyde!"

So besides Trapster, Slyde, Hammerhead, and the Enforcers, there's a huge mass of villains seen towards the end that need identifying. 

Page 28, Panel 1: new Cat-Man, new Bird-Man, Leader(??), Ringmaster, Override, new Ape-Man, Bella Donna (??)

Panel 3: Woman in Armor, Bloodlust, Squid, Guy with Headband, Mauler, Electro, the Great Gambeenos

Panel 4: Cape Guy, Stiletto, Guy in Suit, ??, Clown, ??, Answer, Spot, Bella Donna (??), Aura, Override
<<<

Hi, new to the board (though Jeph knows me), thought I'd just chime in with some suggestions. 

The guy in the chainmail cowl at the far right of panel 1.... Crusader? 

Guy with headband in panel 3.... Discus? 

There's a couple more I feel I should be able to recognize, but they're not coming to me. Maybe later. 

I'd be amused if this gathering does stick together in some way and becomes the underworld's answer to the T-bolts. 

"See? We've got supervillains too! Uh... sort of."

			*	*	*

Dec 29, 2006 3:13 am 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
new to the board (though Jeph knows me)
<<<

I thought I done tole you never to come round these parts. 

Err ... I mean, welcome! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 29, 2006 8:44 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
The guy in the chainmail cowl at the far right of panel 1.... Crusader? 
<<<

It would seem so, but wasn't he killed just before the Stamford incident in W3 42? 

And is that Will O' the Wisp on the far left?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 29, 2006 11:48 am 
By CylverSaber

Good call, yeah, I think I see a circle on his chest even from that angle. 

I feel I should recognize that woman in the armor...

			*	*	*

Jan 11, 2007 2:01 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I had a few more half-focused thoughts on "War Crimes". 

First off, in that sequence of newspaper headlines that showed how the Kingpin's intel helped Iron Man capture several fugitive heroes -- Black Crow, Rage and D-Man are listed. Now, Rage was shown to be in custody back in ASM #534 and FF #539, and it was never explained how he got there. I'm assuming that this headline covers his capture. 

Therefore, Iron Man's deal with the Kingpin predates ASM #534 and FF #539. And since both of those issues claim that they follow directly from the battle with the Thor-clone in CW #3-4, then Iron Man's deal with the Kingpin predates the final scene of CW #3. 

Now, on to Slyde and Ox. I'm still trying to work an angle where Slyde appears in the T-Bolts army, and is *then* killed in "War Crimes". We've already assumed that Ox appears in the beginning of "War Crimes" prior to serving in the T-Bolts Army, and then appears at the end after serving. Right now we have this order: 

>>>
CW:WC 1 (3-14) -- In Riker's, Kingpin offers Stark help to find the fugitive Cap. (Ox is in Riker's.)

CW:WC 1 (15-18) -- Slyde killed

CW:WC 1 (19-21) -- Ox and fellow Enforcers beat up by Kingpin in prison

TB 104 -- Ox recruited into Thunderbolts army

CW 5 (13-16) -- Cap tells the Resistance that Cloak & Dagger are captured

CW:WC 1 (25-30) -- Newspaper reports capture of Cloak & Dagger

CW:WC 1 (31-35) -- Stark learns he's been played by Kingpin

TB 106-108 -- Ox still with Thunderbolts army; new Slyde part of army; Joystick betrays everyone; Atlas loses ionic energy; Zemo goes bye-bye; Songbird out of action

CW:WC 1 (36) -- Ox back at Riker's following downsizing of Thunderbolts army
<<<

But how about THIS order? Italics denote new info added by me:

CW:WC 1 (3-14) -- In Riker's, Kingpin offers Stark help to find the fugitive Cap. (Ox is in Riker's.) Using the Kingpin's info, Rage is captured.

CW 3 (?-end), CW 4 (1-?) -- battle with Thor clone, Goliath killed.

ASM 534 ~ FF 539 -- Rage escapes custody when the Puppet Master attacks.

TB 104 -- Ox recruited into Thunderbolts army

CW 5 (13-16) -- Cap tells the Resistance that Cloak & Dagger are captured

TB 106-108 -- Ox still with Thunderbolts army; Slyde part of army; Joystick betrays everyone; Atlas loses ionic energy; Zemo goes bye-bye; Songbird out of action

CW:WC 1 (15-18) -- Slyde killed following downsizing of Thunderbolts army

CW:WC 1 (19-21) -- Ox, back at Riker's following downsizing of Thunderbolts army, and fellow Enforcers beat up by Kingpin in prison

CW:WC 1 (25-30) -- Newspaper reports capture of Cloak & Dagger, but who says it's a current newspaper?

CW:WC 1 (31-35) -- Stark learns he's been played by Kingpin 

CW:WC 1 (36) -- Ox still back at Riker's[/quote] 


See, by disregarding the assumption that the newspaper reporting Cloak & dagger's capture is "today's news", we can place Slyde's appearance in TB #106 before his death in CW:WC. 

Now, there's one problematic bit above -- as Somebody pointed out a few days ago, Mach-IV and Fixer appear in CW #6-7, and it must come before their appearance in TB #108 (where Mach-IV's armor is trashed). 

And, since CW #6-7 appears to be the "final battle" between anti-reg and pro-reg heroes, the latter half of "War Crimes", where Cap's forces are in hiding and manipulating Iron Man's forces, likely comes before the last part of CW #6. Which means that Slyde's death, earlier in War Crimes, also needs to occur before CW #6-7 -- and therefore also before TB #108. 

So since Slyde appears in TB #106, there'd need to be a gap somewhere in TB #106-108 for this to work. 

So -- is there? I envision a chronology looking something like this: 

CW:WC 1 (3-14) -- In Riker's, Kingpin offers Stark help to find the fugitive Cap. (Ox is in Riker's.) Using the Kingpin's info, Rage is captured. 

CW 3 (?-end), CW 4 (1-?) -- battle with Thor clone, Goliath killed. 

ASM 534 ~ FF 539 -- Rage escapes custody when the Puppet Master attacks. 

TB 104 -- Ox recruited into Thunderbolts army. 

CW 5 (13-16) -- Cap tells the Resistance that Cloak & Dagger are captured. 

TB 106 to gap -- Ox still with Thunderbolts army; Slyde part of army. 

CW:WC 1 (15-18) -- Slyde, AWOL from Thunderbolts army, killed. 

CW:WC 1 (19-21) -- Ox, back at Riker's following downsizing of (or simply washing out of) Thunderbolts army, and fellow Enforcers beat up by Kingpin in prison. 

CW:WC 1 (25-30) -- Old newspaper reports capture of Cloak & Dagger. 

CW:WC 1 (31-36) -- Stark learns he's been played by Kingpin, who was secretly working with Cap's underground forces. Ox still back at Riker's. 

CW 6 (?-end), 7 (1-?) -- final battle between Cap's forces and Iron Man's forces. 

TB gap to 108 -- Joystick betrays everyone; Atlas loses ionic energy; Zemo goes bye-bye; Songbird out of action. 


Thoughts? Any reason this can't work? I'd rather assume "old newspaper" than assume "new character in Slyde costume". 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jan 11, 2007 3:54 pm 
By Somebody
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
See, by disregarding the assumption that the newspaper reporting Cloak & dagger's capture is "today's news", we can place Slyde's appearance in TB #106 before his death in CW:WC.
<<<

I'd considered that it was an old paper before, but didn't mention it because it didn't help anything. 

The thing you're looking for is that Slyde's appearance is in TB107, after Joystick's betrayal, besides anything else, while the world's gone completely to pot & the TBArmy is doing damage control. 

A situation that only resolves itself when Grandmaster's dead and the moonstones are shattered, throwing Zemo through a portal back through time, leaving Atlas depowered-at-giant-size from shutting the portal and Songbird comatose in Moonstoneworld for a week.

			*	*	*

Jan 12, 2007 1:04 am 
By jephyork
Director

Okay, give this a shot. 

Civil War #6-7 take place between Thunderbolts #108-109. 

How, you say? Mach-IV and Blizzard's costumes were destroyed in TB #108, and they appear in them in CW #6. 

Well, I just read TB #106-110, and the dialogue in #109 could be ... creatively reinterpreted if need be. 

Fixer says that Mach-IV's armor was badly damaged by the Wellspring energy, and can't be rebuilt. However, IIRC he doesn't definitively say that it was destroyed by the Wellspring energy. And I don't think we see it being destroyed on-panel. 

We could assume that the Wellspring energy degraded the armor's systems so badly that when it appeared in CW #6-7, it was on its last legs -- on the fritz and barely functional -- and the battle there was the final straw. 

As for Blizzard -- well, we see his costume being destroyed in TB #108, and the dialogue referencing that destruction in TB #109 is much more concrete. However, as Somebody pointed out recently -- he's in THE WRONG COSTUME in CW #6. 

Yes, his current costume WAS destroyed in TB #108 -- but who's to say that the US Government didn't fix up his old model while he was out wearing the new one? They could have given it back to him for that one mission in CW #6-7, then taken it away again and cut him loose in TB #109. 


(And, hey, on another point -- that sure looks like Hammerhead in prison in IM 4 #14, page 3. Same scene showing Zemo to still be in charge of the Thunderbolts Army -- which means, prior to TB #106-108. And is that Ox on the other side of Doctor Octopus? Hmm.) 


If these suggestions work for everyone, then we CAN keep Slyde's appearance in TB #107 prior to his death in CW:WC -- and the chronology would look something like this: 

CW:WC 1 (3-14) -- In Riker's, Hammerhead announces that he's being released from prison on a technicality -- but he may not mean that he's being released that same day. (Or, he may have been lied to.) Ox is among the convicts at Riker's. Kingpin offers Stark help to find the fugitive Cap. Using this info, Rage is captured. 

CW 3 (?-end), CW 4 (1-?) -- battle with Thor clone, Goliath killed. 

ASM 534 ~ FF 539 -- immediately following the battle with the Thor clone, Rage escapes custody when the Puppet Master attacks. 

TB 104 -- Ox recruited into Thunderbolts army. 

CW 5 -- Cap tells the Resistance that Cloak & Dagger are captured. Spidey defects to Cap's Resistance.

IM4 14 -- Zemo is still around. It looks like Hammerhead and Ox are incarcerated with the Thunderbolts Army -- apparently Hammerhead's release wasn't immediate. Spidey, now in Cap's camp, battles Iron Man. 

TB 106-108 -- Ox still with Thunderbolts army; Slyde part of army; Joystick betrays everyone; Atlas loses ionic energy; Zemo goes bye-bye; Songbird out of action. Mach-IV's suit is badly damaged by the Wellsoring energy, and Blizzard's suit is trashed. After this storyline, the Thunderbolts army is downsized. Slyde is cut loose, Hammerhead is finally released as promised, and Ox is returned to prison. 

CW:WC 1 (15-36) -- Hammerhead is finally out of jail. Slyde is killed. Ox and fellow Enforcers beat up by Kingpin in prison. Old newspaper reports capture of Cloak & Dagger. Stark learns he's been played by Kingpin, who was secretly working with Cap's underground forces. 

CW 6 (?-end), CW 7 (1-?) -- final battle between Cap's forces and Iron Man's forces. The Mach-IV suit is on its last legs (and terminally damaged in the battle). Blizzard is given repaired old costume.

TB 109 -- Blizzard, his old costume taken away again, is cut loose from the downsized Thunderbolts Army. Fixer declares the Mach-IV costume a lost cause. Songbird wakes up.

CW:FL 10 -- the Thunderbolts, including Songbird, pursue some of the escapees from the 42 prison, including Daredevil and Typeface (who is killed). 


Thoughts? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jan 12, 2007 3:53 am 
By Somebody
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Civil War #6-7 take place between Thunderbolts #108-109.
<<<

No-go. Songbird's in CW6, and is comatose/in Moonstoneworld for the week between TB108 & 109 (when she sung the moonstones to bits the fragments were attracted to her and sucked her mind into the same limbo Moonstone's mind was in between Avengers/Thunderbolts #6 and Tbolts #109) .


jephyork wrote:
>>>
Fixer says that Mach-IV's armor was badly damaged by the Wellspring energy, and can't be rebuilt. However, IIRC he doesn't definitively say that it was destroyed by the Wellspring energy
<<<

Actually, he does ("Worse, Abe. The harness is shot. The wellspring energy you were exposed to totally fried the systems." Emphasis as-in-comic.)


jephyork wrote:
>>>
As for Blizzard -- well, we see his costume being destroyed in TB #108, and the dialogue referencing that destruction in TB #109 is much more concrete. However, as Somebody pointed out recently -- he's in THE WRONG COSTUME in CW #6.

Yes, his current costume WAS destroyed in TB #108 -- but who's to say that the US Government didn't fix up his old model while he was out wearing the new one? They could have given it back to him for that one mission in CW #6-7, then taken it away again and cut him loose in TB #109.
<<<

It wasn't an all-new costume, IIRC - just a rebuild/upgrade to the old one. The mask downgrading was an optional extra or somethng.

			*	*	*

Jan 12, 2007 11:45 am 
By jephyork
Director

Thanks, Somebody. Looks like we're back to Slyde II, then. 

Alternately, we could claim "art error" -- after all, TB #107 is also the issue that portrayed Hank Pym as being on Cap's Resistance team... 

-Jeph!

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Jan 12, 2007 12:12 pm 
By Somebody
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Alternately, we could claim "art error" -- after all, TB #107 is also the issue that portrayed Hank Pym as being on Cap's Resistance team...
<<<

Aren't you the guy that really didn't want to disregard the high-glare-on-a-screen-tiny-corner-of-a-panel reboot/All-Ages Power Pack cameo earlier in NTB as an art error even though it conflicted with Julie Power's Runaways appearances? 

			*	*	*

Jan 12, 2007 12:41 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Yes, I am. Because it wasn't an irrevocable conflict. There's nothing stopping Julie Power from flying cross-country/teleporting cross-country/getting in Friday and being transported cross-country to visit her family, at roughly the same time as Hydra attacks NYC. 

However, when a character dies (and that was a pretty conclusive death -- bang!), and is then sighted alive, I jump through hoops to try to make everything work. Only when completely defeated, as I've just been, do I sigh and start talking about art errors. 

-Jeph!

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Jan 23, 2007 2:18 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Just a follow up on some of the comments on Bullseye in this thread: With Thunderbolts #110 coming out last week, we see that Bullseye was NOT directly taken from jail in the "Devil in Cell Block D" storyline in Daredevil straight to the Thunderbolts program. 

The opening pages of Issue #110 reveal that Bullseye was assassinating the Assistant D.A. in Dallas, TX, and was caught shortly thereafter. So he must have escaped from prison shortly after Daredevil and the Punisher in DD2 #82-87.

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Jul 06, 2007 7:54 am 
By jannepie

Mikhail wrote:
>>>
Page 28, Panel 1: new Cat-Man, new Bird-Man, Leader(??), Ringmaster, Override, new Ape-Man, Bella Donna (??)

Panel 3: Woman in Armor, Bloodlust, Squid, Guy with Headband, Mauler, Electro, the Great Gambeenos

Panel 4: Cape Guy, Stiletto, Guy in Suit, ??, Clown, ??, Answer, Spot, Bella Donna (??), Aura, Override
<<<

Okay, the person in the left in panel 1 is in my opinion Kangaroo. 

The woman in armor in panel 3 is Commanda. It's Bloodshed (not Bloodlust). There's Armada behind Clown. 


I checked the Master List Guide (http://www.marvunapp.com/master/mastguid.htm), since it's run by Handbook writer(s), and it did have Kangaroo, Cat-Man, Bird-Man, Ringmaster, Override, Ape-Man, Commanda, Bloodshed, Squid, Discus, Mauler, Electro, Great Gambonnos, Stiletto, Clown, Armada, Answer, Bella Donna Boudreaux and Aura listed. No Leader or Spot though, but at least Spot is very recognizable. 

That leaves Leader a bit uncertain, and the two men in suits (one in panel 1 next to Ape-Man and the bald one in panel 3), the cape man (panel 3) and the chest-plate man (panel 3) unidentified. 


Edit: The artist, Staz Johnson, helped to identify some of these. 

That's Foreigner next to Ape-Man in page 28, panel 1. 

The cape man and the bald man in suit in page 28, panel 3, are generic characters. 

The one next to Clown in page 28, panel 3, is Lightmaster. 

			*	*	*

Jul 09, 2007 7:28 am 
By jannepie

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Now, on to Slyde and Ox. I'm still trying to work an angle where Slyde appears in the T-Bolts army, and is *then* killed in "War Crimes". We've already assumed that Ox appears in the beginning of "War Crimes" prior to serving in the T-Bolts Army, and then appears at the end after serving. Right now we have this order:
<<<

I just read the Enforcers entry in SPIDER-MAN: BACK IN BLACK handbook, and the Ox in the THUNDERBOLTS and the OX in the CIVIL WAR: WAR CRIMES are two different characters. 

Raymond Bloch, the founding member of the Enforcers, is seen with the other Enforcers in this one-shot. 

Ronald Bloch, his twin, is seen in SHE-HULK vol. 2 # 1 with Boomerang, and then in THUNDERBOLTS with other former Enforcers, Sylvester "Snake" Marston and Eel. 

That doesn't explain Slyde though, but the handbook entry tells which Ox appearance belongs to which Bloch.

			*	*	*

Jul 09, 2007 10:00 am 
By jephyork
Director

The Handbook just stooped to inventing a twin brother? Unbelievable. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jul 09, 2007 10:45 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

If anything, I would've thought Slyde was the one who needed to be written off as a "twin brother"

...Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Jul 09, 2007 11:29 am 
By Somebody
Director

jannepie wrote:
>>>
I just read the Enforcers entry in SPIDER-MAN: BACK IN BLACK handbook, and the Ox in the THUNDERBOLTS and the OX in the CIVIL WAR: WAR CRIMES are two different characters.

Raymond Bloch, the founding member of the Enforcers, is seen with the other Enforcers in this one-shot.

Ronald Bloch, his twin, is seen in SHE-HULK vol. 2 # 1 with Boomerang, and then in THUNDERBOLTS with other former Enforcers, Sylvester "Snake" Marston and Eel.

That doesn't explain Slyde though, but the handbook entry tells which Ox appearance belongs to which Bloch.
<<<

So, wait, they invented a twin brother - and had the other two Enforcers, which appear in both the bits in question, working with both? In other words, it's okay for the other two to appear in both CW:WC & Tbolts, but Ox needs an out-of-nowhere twin to explain it? 

Unbe-smegging-lievable, even for this group of Handbook writers...

Last edited by Somebody on Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total. 

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Jul 09, 2007 11:30 am 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
If anything, I would've thought Slyde was the one who needed to be written off as a "twin brother"...
<<<

Yeah, they did that too. This time, it was because the Slyde shown in "Enemy of the State" was a white guy, whereas Slyde has traditionally been black. I woulda settled for "coloring error", personally.  

Interestingly, the "Civil War Files" handbook claims that, with SHIELD's help, Slyde II (the white half-brother) recovered from his Hydra brainwashing and Wolvie's attack on him, and joined the Thunderbolts -- but the "Spider-Man: Back in Black" handbook claims that Slyde II *died* at Wolvie's hands in that arc, and it was the *original* Slyde who joined the Thunderbolts. 

Both Handbooks were written by the same team, no? Hah. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jul 09, 2007 11:32 am 
By Somebody
Director

LOL. What about the War Crimes death that sparked all the debate here? 

And WTF does it need to be brothers or half-brothers anyway? Couldn't someone just have nicked a Slyde suit if they needed a Slyde II?!

			*	*	*

Jul 09, 2007 12:15 pm 
By chaka

The Handbook didn't invent Ox's twin brother. That was already the explanation for Ox appearing in Spectacular Spider-Man #20 (1978) after he was killed in Daredevil #86 (1972). I guess somewhere along the way the original returned to life.

			*	*	*

Jul 09, 2007 12:26 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Same objection in reverse then - why say the original returned to life mysteriously to be with the other two in one place while the twin's appearing with the same two in a different place? Have the same three in both places...

			*	*	*

Jul 09, 2007 3:40 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I've removed an earlier post of mine that was unfair to the Handbook folks. They're just doing their jobs, trying to bring some order to the many chaotic and disparate events in the MU in the cleanest way they can think of. 

Also, in the interests of fairness, I should point out that I misstated the facts above. I said: 

>>>
The "Civil War Files" handbook claims that, with SHIELD's help, Slyde II (the white half-brother) recovered from his Hydra brainwashing and Wolvie's attack on him, and joined the Thunderbolts -- but the "Spider-Man: Back in Black" handbook claims that Slyde II *died* at Wolvie's hands in that arc, and it was the *original* Slyde who joined the Thunderbolts.
<<<

Not quite true. The "Civil War Files" handbook states that Slyde recovered from Wolvie's attack, with SHIELD's help, then joined the T-Bolts. It does NOT say that it was Slyde II, the white half-brother -- because the Handbooks hadn't yet postulated that he existed. At the time, they were apparently working on the presumption that the Slyde in both W3 #26-27 and T-Bolts #106-109 was the original, the one-and-only. 

In the "Back in Black" handbook, they apparently changed their minds, decided that the guy in W3 #26-27 was the original's heretofore-unmentioned white half-brother, and that he did, in fact, die. Then the original went on to join the T-Bolts. 

The two Handbooks, as printed, do contradict each other. But not to the extent that my original quote above implied. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jul 10, 2007 1:13 am 
By jephyork
Director

Stuart Vandal, from the Handbook, just dropped me a very nice e-mail about, among other things, the snarky post I deleted earlier  , and the brothers of Ox and Slyde. 

He confirmed Chaka's point that the Handbook didn't just make up Ox's twin brother, and further pointed out that, at some point, the original DID return to life. In fact, our own listings have the original Ox make his re-appearance in Peter Parker: Spider-Man #94-95. (Can anyone with those issues shed some light on how he came back to life?) 

Also, he pointed out that Slyde's white half-brother Matt was not a creation of the Handbook folks -- but made his first appearance in Spider-Man Unlimited #6. Yes, the Handbook writers, along with Tom Brevoort, made the decision to say that Matt was the one in the suit in W3 #26-27 -- but since the guy shown on-panel in those issues was white, it wasn't that big a leap. 

I'm still working on a re-wording of my original, deleted post that's (a) not so inflammatory, and (b) doesn't reveal priveleged information, and I hope to post it later. But long story short, I want to address the contradiction between Slyde's entry in the "Civil War Files" handbook and the "Back in Black" handbook, and offer a compromise solution that I think the MCP folks will find streamlines other characters' chronologies a little bit. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jul 10, 2007 2:44 am 
By dimadick

"Can anyone with those issues shed some light on how he came back to life?" 

Howard Mackie is not one for longwinded explanations. According to the issues Kingpin's men had found the original Oxe "barely alive in that alley many months ago". That was about it to explain why he was alive and working for the Kingpin. 

Which left open some questions: 

1) Raymond had exchanged bodies with Dr. Karl Stragg back in "Daredevil" vol. 1 #15 (April, 1966). Stragg was killed while using the Ox body while Raymond was left in Stragg's frail form. It was hinted than in this form Raymond actually gained some of the good doctor's intelligence. 

2) Raymond in "Daredevil" #66 has underwent an experimental radiation treatment which had several side-effects. He kept changing between a frail but intelligent Stragg form and a grey-skinned, superhumanly powerful Ox form. The later form was mainly used for aimless rampages and "the angrier he got, the storonger it got". (Does it remind anyone of Bruce Banner/Hulk or is it just me?) 

3) The manner in which Raymond "died" was that the radiation within his body was unstable and eventually exploded. 

According to the Howard Mackie explanation, Raymond survived an energy explosion emanating from his own body. Neat trick. He was superhumanly strong but there was no sign of Stragg's intelligence and his skin was not grey. There was no sign of changing forms either. He seemed to keep the Ox form in both issues. If this is still Stragg's body he is using , there is little way to tell the difference. 

Other than the Handbook entries there has been no issue where Raymond is spotlighted and what is going on with his mind and body is explained. Chances are that we are not getting a more expanded version of Mackie's explanation.

			*	*	*

Jul 10, 2007 7:16 am 
By jephyork
Director

So, wait, they invented a twin brother - and had the other two Enforcers, which appear in both the bits in question, working with both?
Somebody, I just noticed that you misread janniepie's quote. The "other two Enforcers" are NOT in both issues. Fancy Dan and Montana are in "War Crimes", and the "other two Enforcers" seen in the T-Bolts issues are Snake Marston and the Eel. 

So, yeah, it IS only the Ox that's in two places at once. 

-Jeph!

Last edited by jephyork on Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

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Jul 10, 2007 8:26 am 
By jannepie

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Also, he pointed out that Slyde's white half-brother Matt was not a creation of the Handbook folks -- but made his first appearance in Spider-Man Unlimited #6. Yes, the Handbook writers, along with Tom Brevoort, made the decision to say that Matt was the one in the suit in W3 #26-27 -- but since the guy shown on-panel in those issues was white, it wasn't that big a leap.
<<<

Sounds reasonable. Same with Ox, since it's previously been shown in the actual books that there are two around. This only makes things easier, since you don't have to pay attention to Slyde's or Ox's appearances during the Civil War.

			*	*	*

Jul 10, 2007 8:52 am 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
you don't have to pay attention to Slyde's or Ox's appearances during the Civil War.
<<<

Ox yes, Slyde no. Remember, the most recent Handbook claims that the Slyde from T-Bolts #106-109 and the one from "War Crimes" are the same guy -- and "Civil War Files" doesn't touch the topic at all. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jul 11, 2007 11:47 am 
By jannepie

Oh, yes.  Well, considering that the white Slyde died previously, it's quite a reasonable claim.

			*	*	*

Jul 12, 2007 6:58 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Don't forget that at least one of these appearances by Ox and Slyde are likely to be explained by Skrull impersonators. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jul 12, 2007 8:55 am 
By jephyork
Director

Oh NO. If we start going down that route to explain anomalous appearances, we're not going to be able to get ANY chronologizing done until Bendis' big Skrull epic is over...  

-Jeph!

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Jul 12, 2007 11:16 am 
By jannepie

Didn't Skrullektra turn into an actual Skrull after she was killed? Slyde didn't. Although neither did the Wolverine impersonator (during the Twelve storyline), until the body was injected with some "stuff". 

Besides, most impersonatees might be the "deceased" villains imprisoned in the Raft.

			*	*	*

Jul 12, 2007 12:52 pm 
By BobMM

>>>
No-go. Songbird's in CW6, and is comatose/in Moonstoneworld for the week between TB108 & 109 (when she sung the moonstones to bits the fragments were attracted to her and sucked her mind into the same limbo Moonstone's mind was in between Avengers/Thunderbolts #6 and Tbolts #109) .
<<<

I'm chiming in on a conversation from six months ago, so please excuse me if you've settled this in another thread. 

From my Thunderbolts-centric perspective, I see TB 106-109 as occurring during a gap in CW5, between pages 17 and 18. It has to occur after the big battle at the chemical plant (which shows Atlas in action) and before Daredevil's incarceration (since DD is on the loose for the Guardian Protocols.) 

DD doesn't appear in TB109, so it's possible that the final pages of CW5 occur between TB108-109. But TB109 has to precede the final battle in CW6-7 because of Songbird's coma. 

Blizzard's and MACH-IV's appearances in the CW finale, then, have to be explained as refurbished/old equipment. 

So... 
CW5 (pages 1-17) 
TB106 
TB107 
TB108 
* (CW5 pages 18-end and the first part of CW6 could be placed here if necessary for chronology of other characters) 
TB109 
CW5 
CW6 
CW7

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Thread 16

Subject: Spider-man Family v2 3/1

12 Jul 2007 09:07 am 
By cweed4

Is this team-up story w/ the FF part of the MU (post-ASM 9) or does it belong in the Marvel Adventures U?

			*	*	*

12 Jul 2007 10:30 pm 
By JLH

It doesn't say "Marvel Adventures" anywhere on it. Meaning for us to decide it takes place in that continuity-nebulous imprint, well, it'd be silly. We just decide if it works for the regular MU or it doesn't, not to decide what "universe" it works for best. I'm the one more or less "in charge" analyzing that particular issue, so the task of figuring out when it takes place rests upon me, though not solely. For instance, Sean Kleenjeans is our resident FF expert. His knowledge of the Fab Fjord may give him deeper insight into the intricacies of the team, to better find the perfect placement. 

Since I'm behind in doing the analyzieses of so many books lately, and since you've asked, let's talk about it now. "Rap", if you would. 

The Fantastic Four are fully knowledgable of Spider-Man, meaning this likely isn't the second meeting, but still early enough for Johnny to mention "nobody really knows anything about him". Sue is still "Invisible Girl", and still just Sue Storm, not Richards. Their costumes are light blue. Peter still lives with his Aunt May. Peter works at the Daily Bugle, freelance. 

What more would be needed to decide on placement? Perhaps Sue's hairstyle is the key. Maybe the way the FF use their powers has some deciding issue. Or pehaps they're out of place and must be ignored. I dunno, I'd have research all that and I don't feel like it at the moment.

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Subject: Sandman's early chronology

28 May 2007 11:11 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

After reading the first story in last week's Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man Annual #1, I figured I would try to sort out the Sandman's early chronology, so here goes... 

M/TIO 86-FB (8:8-8:9) 
FNSM@ 1-FB (1-4) 
FNSM@ 1-FB (7-10) 
FNSM@ 1-FB (12-14) 
M/TIO 86-FB (9:1) 
FNSM@ 1-FB (15) 
M/TIO 86-FB (9:2-9:3) 
FNSM@ 1-FB (16-17) 
M/TIO 86-FB (9:5) 
FNSM@ 1-FB (18) 
M/TIO 86-FB (9:6-10:7) 
FNSM@ 1-FB (20-23:1) 
M/TIO 86-FB (11:1-11:3) 
M/TIO 86-FB (11:5-11:6) 
FNSM@ 1-FB (23:2-23:3) 
ASM 4-FB (6:8) 
M/TIO 86-FB (12:1-12:2) 
ASM 4-FB (6:9) 
FNSM@ 1-FB (23:4-23:5) 
ASM 4-FB (6:10) 
M/TIO 86-FB (12:3-12:6) 
ASM 4-FB (6:11) 
FNSM@ 1-FB (23:6) 
M/TIO 86-FB (13:1) 
ASM 4-FB (7:1) 
M/TIO 86-FB (13:2) 
FNSM@ 1-FB (24:1) 
M/TIO 86-FB (13:3-13:6) 
ASM 4-FB (7:2) 
FNSM@ 1-FB (24:2-25:5) 
ASM 4 (1-12) 
FNSM@ 1-FB (26:1) 
ASM 4 (13:1-16:6) 
FNSM@ 1-FB (26:2) 
ASM 4 (16:7-21:4) 
FNSM@ 1-FB (26:3-29:6) 
FNSM@ 1-FB (5-6) 
FNSM@ 1-FB (11) 
FNSM@ 1-FB (19) 
FNSM@ 1-FB (30-31) 
FNSM@ 1* 
ST 115 
... 

*I'm not sure how to treat the last page (32) of the FNSM@ 1 story -- it shows a very young Baker making a sand castle on the beach (as in pages 1-3, but with different swim shorts), and the castle shows Sandman defeating Spider-Man. This is probably a mental conjuring of Baker's, perhaps at the time of the narration, which I'd count as FNSM@ 1 (no FB designation), but I don't know where to place the narration. The upshot of it is it's the point in time at which Baker vows to kill Spider-Man as his mark in the world. I tentatively placed it after his second encounter with Spidey, as told in various pages of FNSM@ 1-FB, since he relates no other battles with the wall-crawler aside from the first (from ASM 4). 

A couple of inconsistencies become obvious from trying to incorporate the new comic into previously published accounts. 

1) The number on William Baker's football uniform in M/TIO 86-FB was 7; in FNSM@ 1-FB, it's 8. Chalk it up to artistic error. 

2) Baker encounters his buddy Vic Rollins making time with his girl Marcy on two different occasions -- before he got his powers in M/TIO 86-FB and after he got his powersw in FNSM@ 1-FB. I think we can count both scenes as canonical if we consider the following scenario. In M/TIO 86-FB, Baker unexpectedly returns from prison to find Marcy and Vic sitting on a couch together in her apartment. At that point, there may have been nothing going on between them, but Baker jumped to conclusions and punched Vic, disgusting Marcy. After that, BTS, Marcy explains the truth to Baker and the matter is resolved, but Marcy now has doubts about Baker. Later, when Baker is back in prison, Marcy really does start a relationship with Vic. In SESM@ 1-FB, Baker returns unexpectedly from prison again (after getting his powers), only to find Vic and Marcy in bed together (no doubts there). He goes nuts and nearly kills them both.

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 29 May 2007 07:06 am, edited 1 time in total. 

Paul B.

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28 May 2007 01:05 pm 
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
After reading the first story in last week's Senstational Spider-Man Annual #1, I figured I would try to sort out the Sandman's early chronology.
<<<

Er, wouldn't this rather be Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man Annual #1 ?

			*	*	*

29 May 2007 07:03 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yikes! All these modifiers are getting confusing! I'll change it. 

Paul B.

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19 Jun 2007 12:39 pm 
By cweed4

>>>
*I'm not sure how to treat the last page (32) of the FNSM@ 1 story -- it shows a very young Baker making a sand castle on the beach (as in pages 1-3, but with different swim shorts), and the castle shows Sandman defeating Spider-Man.
<<<

This is an almost strait continuation from the previous page. The kid in question is not a young Baker, just some unkown kid playing on the beach after Sandy's battle w/ Spidey. The sandcastle of Sandman defeating Spider-man is actually Baker himself. 


Another extremely trivial inconsistency is the appearance of a Wolverine plush doll at an amusement park game well before his MU debut. (Somehow, noticing this, I feel like I crossed some line of official chronology geek  )

			*	*	*

19 Jun 2007 04:48 pm 
By Enda80

If it was unmasked, we can justify it as an unmasked Timber Wolf of DC's Legion, who even had the haircut before Wolverine did.

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19 Jun 2007 04:52 pm 
By Somebody
Director

...

			*	*	*

20 Jun 2007 06:08 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I vote to delete that post. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

12 Jul 2007 11:38 pm 
By Carl Creel

Chaulk up the football jersey number error to the utter lack of caring on the so-called editors part.

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13 Jul 2007 08:28 am 
By jephyork
Director

Carl, it's nice to have a new face on the boards -- but if all you're going to do is slam people like Bendis and the editors, well, it's not really helping to further the discussion. 

It's obvious that the incorrect jersey number is the result of an oversight. It's also an incredibly trivial issue -- so much so that your mean-spirited response seems rather out of proportion. 

In the future, could you try to ADD to the conversations, with chronological placement suggestions or the pointing out of errors in a civil manner? We've got enough people yelling about Bendis already, and it doesn't really get us anywhere in terms of the projects we work on here. 

Thanks. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Subject: Astonishing X-Men placement

12 Jul 2007 12:05 am 
By Shadowdragon

I have a read order guide that has the Astonishing X-Men series start after Uncanny X-Men 449 and after X-Men 160. Astonishing X-Men 1 seems to be set right after the school reopens, but in both Uncanny X-Men and X-Men the school has been open again for several issues (from 444 and 157 I think). Where should Astonishing X-Men start? I checked the chronology for several of the characters but the chronologies on this web site don't seem to go as far as I need. 

Here is the section of the read order guide I think is wrong: 
X-Men 157 
X-Men 158 
X-Men 159 
X-Men 160 
Uncanny X-Men 444 
Uncanny X-Men 445 
Uncanny X-Men 446 
Uncanny X-Men 447 
Uncanny X-Men 448 
Uncanny X-Men 449 
Astonishing X-Men 1 
Astonishing X-Men 2 
Astonishing X-Men 3 
Astonishing X-Men 4 
Astonishing X-Men 5 
Astonishing X-Men 6 
New X-Men - Academy X 1 
New X-Men - Academy X 2 
New X-Men - Academy X 3 
New X-Men - Academy X 4 
New X-Men - Academy X 5 
New X-Men - Academy X 6

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12 Jul 2007 01:45 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

A while back, it was decided that a gap of time had to occur between pages of Astonishing #1, to accomodate the 'start of the school' element, and clues from the other fives issues. In a read order guide, that would mean reading half of Astonishing #1, then a bunch of other comics, then the other half of #1 and the following five issues. 

Check Paul B's Calendar(link at the bottom of the page) around August of Year 22 for this area of X-issues... and it's a bit more current. 

Hope that helps!

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

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12 Jul 2007 08:52 am 
Bu jephyork
Director

Yep, that's right. Because the Uncanny team doesn't learn about the return of Colossus (from Aston v3 #4-6) until Uncanny #460 (!), and there aren't any gaps anywhere else in Aston v3 #1-6 for Uncanny #444-459 to occur, we had to invent a gap in Astonishing #1. 

There were other reasons for this gap, as well -- and it's one of the more awkward things I remember us having to do -- but yeah. 

To be honest, though, I question other elements of that reading-order you posted, Shadowdragon. In addition to the fact that, at the very least, Uncanny #450-454 should also come before Aston v3 #1-6, I don't think there's any need for New X-Men #1-6 to be that far forward ... can I ask where you got that list from? 

-Jeph!

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12 Jul 2007 11:33 pm 
By Shadowdragon

I got the read order from a friend. I'm not sure where he got it from but he mentioned it was kind of old. Is there some place I can get a more up-to-date read order for the main x-title comics?

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14 Jul 2007 12:55 am 
By Shadowdragon

So, is Astonishing X-Men v3 supposed to go after Uncanny 460? Where is New X-Men - Academy X supposed to go? Is there a more current/accurate x-title read order guide out there?

			*	*	*

14 Jul 2007 02:02 am 
By Starman

As Col_Fury wrote above, try Paul Bourcier's Marvel Calendar (http://www.chronologyproject.com/calendar.htm).

- Stefan

"Pub, ah yes. A meeting place where people attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf

			*	*	*

14 Jul 2007 07:27 pm 
By Shadowdragon

That calendar thing is very confusing. There's odd pages scattered all over the place. A proper read order guide would be more helpful, if one exists

			*	*	*

14 Jul 2007 08:47 pm 
By Jason Doty

Look for David Hall's Read List in the chat section, If I remember you should be able to find it by searching for "DHall".

			*	*	*

14 Jul 2007 08:52 pm 
By Starman

Shadowdragon wrote:
That calendar thing is very confusing. There's odd pages scattered all over the place. A proper read order guide would be more helpful, if one exists

I'm not aware of one, but I'm in the process of creating one, with the help of the MCP, Marvel Saga, Marvels, P.B.'s Marvel Calendar, publishing dates, et cetera. It's not limited to X-Men comics, but encompass all the comic books that are Marvel Universe canon, (provided they are in my comic book collection), and some that aren't canon, but has some relevance anyway, as characters from other universes crossover with the regular Marvel Universe from time to time. (As for example Arno Stark, the Iron Man of the year 2020, who debuted in the Machine Man mini-series from 1984-1985.) 

It's far from complete though, and is limited to only comics I do currently own, making adjustments each time I expand my comic book collection. (So you'll have to fill in the unlisted comics yourself, but at least you have a foundation to build on.) But if you think it would help, I could show how I've interpreted the read-order. 

As of now I've listed from Marvels #1 (WWII) to Amazing Spider-Man #37 (1966), from Uncanny X-Men #199 (1985) to Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man #133 (1987), and from Peter Parker, Spider-Man (vol. 2) #19 (2000) to Amazing Spider-Man #533 (2006). Which years do you need?

- Stefan

"Pub, ah yes. A meeting place where people attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf

			*	*	*

14 Jul 2007 11:05 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

This is what Jason is talking about.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

14 Jul 2007 11:16 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Shadowdragon wrote:
>>>
A proper read order guide would be more helpful, if one exists
<<<

What do you mean by proper read order guide? 


watching: dracula

			*	*	*

15 Jul 2007 04:00 am 
By Shadowdragon

The David Hall read order guide looks like it's what I've been searching for. I'll have to take a proper look through it to see how it compares to the one I'm using. 

@ Administrator: By proper read order guide I mean one that lists full comics in the order they're supposed to be read. Not a calander that lists a few pages here, a few pages there, and basically breaks things down into way too much detail. I'm not saying the calander is a bad thing, I just don't want to read a few pages of one comic, then a few pages of another, then a few pages of the first comic, then the second half of another comic, etc, etc, etc.

			*	*	*

15 Jul 2007 08:57 am 
By Dhall

My list probably isn't updated enough to interest you. Someday.....too many other projects at the moment. You could always make your own read order guide for the past few years based off the calendar.

			*	*	*

15 Jul 2007 11:34 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Shadowdragon wrote:
>>>
By proper read order guide I mean one that lists full comics in the order they're supposed to be read.
<<<

Problem with that approach is that, many times, comics aren't supposed to be read in full. There are gaps in the middle of stories, into which sometimes dozens of other books must be inserted. And it might be important those books be read in that gap between pages. So a reading order which just lists books can be a place to start, a skeleton, if you will, but I wouldn't call that a "proper read order guide." 


watching: dan'l boone

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Subject: AIF additions

15 Jul 2007 06:43 pm 
By Dhall

THOG 
DRSTR3 8-FB-BTS 
**AIF 13 
{M-T 1} 
M-T 22-FB 
M-T 21 
M-T 22-FB 
M-T2 11-FB 
DEF 99 
DEF 100 
MGK2 3 

*ZHERED-NA 
AIF 15-FB 

*KAMUU 
AIF 15-FB 

*THOMPSON, DOCTOR WARREN B. 
AIF 10 
AIF 16 

*THOMPSON, MARGARET 
AIF 10 
AIF 16 

AQUARIAN/WUNDARR 
**AIF 17-FB 
Q 4-FB 
{AIF 17} 
M/TIO 2 
M/TIO 3 
M/TIO 4 

*HEKTU 
AIF 17-FB 

*SOJA 
AIF 17-FB

			*	*	*

15 Jul 2007 11:44 pm 
By Enda80

Valka is bts in AIF 15. He was a mystical being from the Kull stories. Also BTS in Doctor Strange III#33/2.

			*	*	*

16 Jul 2007 12:22 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

I believe you, Enda80. But for the Project's sake, what issue revealed the BTS?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

16 Jul 2007 06:32 am 
By Enda80

Those very issues themselves stated he was BTS aiding Zhered-Na.

			*	*	*

16 Jul 2007 06:50 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Further clarification, please. How did he aid Zhered-Na? We don't include BTS listings for mystical beings who are simply invoked in a spell, such as, "By the Voluminous Veils of Valka, begone!" 

So what's the nature of the aid? 


watching: today

			*	*	*

16 Jul 2007 07:02 am 
By Enda80

He sent her visions of the future.

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Subject: World War Hulk

19 Jul 2007 10:00 pm 
By Somebody
Director

The editor just laid out a WWH-so-far timeline as part of a Newsarama interview with him and the writer. Much of it is clear anyway (WWH:X-Men takes place immediately after the Hulk's Times Square announcement in WWH1 and before we next see Hulk there, while the IH107 Hulk/Herc fight is shown from distance in WWH2 to establish the timeline), but it doesn't hurt to have official announcements: 

>>>
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=121663
Newsarama: Mark - first one for you this time - this is picking up immediately after World War Hulk #1, correct? Time-framing things out a little...what else has been happening in terms of the tie-in issues, and when do their stories occur?

Mark Paniccia: World War Hulk #2 happens just seconds after World War Hulk #1. Hulk has just put the final smash on Iron Man and now he's facing a group of heavy hitters including his cuz, Jen Walters, AKA She Hulk.

At this point, the X-Men have already mixed it up with green jeans in WWH: X-Men and the events of Iron Man #19 and #20 and Ant Man #10 have occurred. Gamma Corps has kicked into gear and the Heroes For Hire have been caught on Hulk's stone ship.

Hulk #107 takes place during WWH #1 and #2 and the Front Line series is running fairly parallel. And the Initiative and Ghost Rider arcs have started.
<<<

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Subject: Incredible Hulk #464-FB

19 Jul 2007 10:37 pm 
By Somebody
Director

The set of flashback panels on pg 5 of Incredible Hulk #464 aren't listed - one (5:1) is a repeat of a panel of Thunderbolt Ross in IH400 and so doesn't qualify for a listing, one (5:2) is almost immediately after the end of IH400 (IH400 ends with Ross still half-buried, in the IH464-FB, Hulk's holding Ross' "dead" body), and one'sat some point later (5:4), with Troyjan doctors resurrecting Ross properly and Armageddon watching in shadow. [(5:3)'s a confused headshot of present-day Ross remembering these, FTR). 

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
[...] 
H2 400 
*H2 464-FB (5:2) 
H2 401 
[...] 

ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. "THUNDERBOLT" 
[...] 
H2 400 
*H2 464-FB (5:2) 
*H2 464-FB (5:4) 
H2 455 
[...] 

ARMAGEDDON/ARM'CHEDON 
[...] 
H2 416 
*H2 464-FB (5:4) 
H2 455-BTS 
[...]

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Subject: Seperate characters body-sharing

11 Feb 2007 10:55 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Something that I brought up in the Ghost Rider v5 #6-7 thread and Col_Fury suggested should get its' own thread. I'll just quote mine and Col_Fury's posts from there: 

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Incidentally, something that's bugging me since I read this stuff - shouldn't Ghost Rider/Noble Kane get his own MCP entry, with any issue where GR appears and Danny doesn't have Dan only BTS, and vice-versa? They're seperate entities who were body-sharing, but the MCP's treating it right now like GR=Dan.
<<<

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Venom & Eddie Brock have split-entries...

By this logic, shouldn't Johnny Blaze & Zarathos have split-entries? And Thor & Don Blake and Thor & Jake Olson?

Perhaps this should be moved to a different topic, but I agree with Somebody's suggestion. If Venom is split, then why not the Ghost Riders and Thor?
<<<

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Blaze/Zarathos is the same thing (I'm not sure how many other Firestorm-types are out there), but Thor/Blake/Olson is another matter.

[Thor was never bonded to the real Blake or Olson, they were always just Thor in mortal form (he WAS, however, bonded to Eric Masterson in that way before the latter took over Thor's body as well), although there was a real Olson (the Blake thing is ambiguous to a certain extent - mostly because the story in question was crappy verging on indecipherable, but partially because Tom B ordered the Handbook guys to put in a "There never was a real Blake" line to Thor's Av2004 profile rather than rationalising the story in question.)]
<<<

Thoughts?

			*	*	*

12 Feb 2007 01:33 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

I do think that Blaze & Zarathos, Ketch & Kane, and Badilino & Vengeance should get split-listings. I don't think it would matter too much for Vengeance, because he doesn't have as much of a back story as the others, but still... 

I am by no means a Thor expert, and I haven't read the Avengers 2004 handbook either, but... 

There was no Don Blake? Didn't he have friends and colleagues at his hospital that knew him before he was bonded to Thor? And how would Thor know anything of mortal medicine? And didn't Blake just show up in Fantastic Four?(well, that's not confirmed, but who else would it be?) 

Or is the handbook saying there was a Donald Blake, but Thor became a facsimile of him? Then what happened to the real Blake? 

Obviously, I'm confused. I understand you're quoting from a source, it's just that it doesn't make any sense to me. 

Any Thor experts out there?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

12 Feb 2007 12:23 pm 
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/sigynthor.htm 

http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=Sigyn+AND+%22Donald+Blake%22

			*	*	*

12 Feb 2007 12:50 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
I do think that Blaze & Zarathos, Ketch & Kane, and Badilino & Vengeance should get split-listings. I don't think it would matter too much for Vengeance, because he doesn't have as much of a back story as the others, but still...

I am by no means a Thor expert, and I haven't read the Avengers 2004 handbook either, but...

There was no Don Blake? Didn't he have friends and colleagues at his hospital that knew him before he was bonded to Thor? And how would Thor know anything of mortal medicine? And didn't Blake just show up in Fantastic Four?(well, that's not confirmed, but who else would it be?) 

Or is the handbook saying there was a Donald Blake, but Thor became a facsimile of him? Then what happened to the real Blake? 

Obviously, I'm confused. I understand you're quoting from a source, it's just that it doesn't make any sense to me. 

Any Thor experts out there?
<<<

The whole Thor/Blake thing is confused. Basically, it was originally written as if Blake was the real guy, found the hammer and became Thor. Eventually, however, this was turned around into "Thor was cursed into being Blake by Odin as a punishment", with Thor spending about ten years, from college onwards, as Blake before Odin subliminally called him to pick up Mjolnir in Norway, with the implication that there had never been a real Blake, just Odin messing about with records to make it seem so, with the Blake template being based on Jane Foster's later husband, Dr Keith Kincaid. The rapid dismissal of the Blake ID in Simonson's run, culminating with Thor belatedly sending Fandral some time afterward to mindwipe Blake's medical staff, went with that.

Then Roy Thomas came along. From here on, I'll just quote Handbook guy on the subject:

>>>
Odin wants to teach Thor humility. He finds lame man Donald Blake and places Thor within his body. Thor-Blake goes on to become a doctor, then Odin compels him to visit Norway, where he finds Mjolnir in the form of a cane. When Thor-Blake strikes the cane on a rock, Odin spirits Blake away and freezes him in time at Mount Wundagore, while Thor regains his true form. When Thor strikes Mjolnir to become Blake again, he actually turns into a duplicate of Blake.

Meanwhile, Sigyn wants to bargain for Loki's release from the tree he was in at the time, and finds Blake at Mount Wundagore. When she uses magic to try and snare him, her magic collides with Odin's and destroys Blake. Horrified, Sigyn creates a duplicate of Blake and leaves it there hoping no one will ever notice.

Years go by. Thor finds Blake duplicate, who thinks he's the real Blake, and hates Thor for taking his place. They eventually become allies, and then wind up merging together. When they merge, Thor realizes that it was never really Blake to begin with, and later gets a confession out of Sigyn.

There ya go. It's quite possibly the most convoluted thing in comics ever. More convoluted than Kang. I did my best to write it into Thor's profile in a way that could be understood, but Brevoort's response was: "This was a terrible story. Please remove."
<<<

Which resulted in the note "Accounts claiming that Don Blake was a normal man bonded to or replaced by Thor are false" in the Thor Av2004 entry, as I mentioned.

			*	*	*

13 Feb 2007 01:00 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

That's... crazy. 

>>>
It's quite possibly the most convoluted thing in comics ever. 
<<<

That's... yeah. 

I'm stunned. So there was never a Don Blake. A real one, at least. But there was a Jake Olson... right? And Thor replaced him?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

13 Feb 2007 06:01 am 
By JLH

Here's the thing... in the cases of both Ghost Riders and Vengeance, it's their host's bodies in all these appearances. The skeletons we see are their skeletons mystically enhanced by hellfire (or in Vengeance's case, some added color and parts, done so by Mephisto himself). The power behind these changes is whatever Spirit of Vengeance they're bonded with, as is whatever powers they have just by being these flaming bones. 

With Johnny Blaze, up until about GR2 29, he was always in full control of the body. Zarathos is completely silent, having no voice or control of any kind. He's a conduit for power, that's it. He's BTS during that time, and I will argue until I'm blue in the face otherwise. But with GR2 29, Zarathos becomes awakened, thanks to Dormammu. Johnny would "pretend" to be a demonic Spirit of Vengeance prior, but it was an act. We'd SEE his thought balloons confirming this. It was later confirmed in a letters page that Jim Shooter's run first touched upon the demon persona, and as we see in GR2 25 & 26, Johnny goes into the demonic "act", and starts losing it. Saying things he didn't intend to, acting far more irrationally. But it was the Roger McKinzie run where this became status quo, following the Dr Strange battle, Ghost Rider is clearly a seperate identity, with Johnny barely even remembering what happens during his time as it. It's not until GR2 76 that we learn the demon's name is Zarathos. 

As per the stories, I say GR II/Johnny Blaze should remain the listing. Zarathos should be given BTS up until he begins taking control. I've checked all the appearances of that time, and the Zarathos-controlled GR never appears without Johnny also being in the issue in some way (but Johnny does make a FB appearance without turning GR once). 

With Danny Ketch, it's a far tougher ball of wax. When he turns into Ghost Rider, it IS still his skeleton. But the Spirit of Vengeance named Noble Kale is in full control. Dan doesn't even always rememeber what happens during the change. But how can we say Dan is BTS when it's his body riding around right there on the panel? It doesn't happen all TOO often, mostly during MCP stories where Dan's in part 1 and the rest he's in GR form, for instance. But Marvel considers Dan Ketch to be Ghost Rider, the host's importance in the role should not be completely undermined by the existence of a guiding force. But this case is entirely different from the Blaze/Zarathos one. To treat it the same would be beyond stupid. Dan's never in control of GR, whereas Blaze WAS for his first few years. How they start out in a role does determine position with the MCP, just as it would someone else taking over a costume. 

On a sidenote, Dan stopped being the host for Noble in GR3 91. He got his old body back at last. In that case, well, there's no doubt Noble should get is very own GR designation, even if it is only for a few issues. And who in their right mind would say it was Dan Ketch that Noble was possessing in that FB in GR3 89 showing WWI GR? The MCP doesn't even list that one... 

Vengeance is more akin to Johnny Blaze. He's always, ALWAYS in control of his Ghost Rider side. Yes, he has a Spirit of Vengeance bound to him, but it's never named, and only ever shown in a FB in GR2 43 alongside three or four others. We don't give unnamed characters MCP listings, why give unnamed Spirits of Vengeance with no personality of their own and act as merely power sources listings? At least the Symbiotes all have acted independently in-story many times (well, some of the "colored" ones aside).

			*	*	*

13 Feb 2007 09:10 am 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
But there was a Jake Olson... right? And Thor replaced him?
<<<

Right. He was even resurrected for a wee while later on (separate from Thor/Olson).


JLH wrote:
>>>
But this [Ketch/Noble] case is entirely different from the Blaze/Zarathos one. To treat it the same would be beyond stupid.
<<<

*raises eyebrow*

However, right now they ARE being treated the same...


JLH wrote:
>>>
On a sidenote, Dan stopped being the host for Noble in GR3 91. He got his old body back at last. In that case, well, there's no doubt Noble should get is very own GR designation, even if it is only for a few issues. And who in their right mind would say it was Dan Ketch that Noble was possessing in that FB in GR3 89 showing WWI GR?
<<<

He was also possessing Naomi Kale in GR -1, and SHE's not listed as Ghost Rider/Naomi Kale, despite that being the only issue she's listed for night now...


JLH wrote:
>>>
The MCP doesn't even list that one... 
<<<

The MCP seems a bit patchy on those last few GR3 issues. "GR/Dan"'s listed, as seemingly are most (I haven't checked all) of the other characters, but as I said here, Naomi's appearances as a ghost aren't listed.

			*	*	*

13 Feb 2007 11:57 am 
By Enda80

Zarathos appeared in a few fbs w/o Blaze in Ghost Rider II#77. He also appeared in ASM I#274 during Secret Wars II. The Soul Crystal from Ghost Rider I#81 was seen in Thor I#430. I don't know if Zarathos and Centurious were in it, since Mephisto is shown holding it but does not remark about it to Loki. When Zarathos and Centurious were freed remains unclear, though I should note that Steel Wind's entry seems to indcate it was before the Superia Stratagem, because she appeared in that storyline and she was revived from her coma by Centurious.

			*	*	*

15 Feb 2007 02:37 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
But there was a Jake Olson... right? And Thor replaced him? 
<<<

Right. He was even resurrected for a wee while later on (separate from Thor/Olson). 
<<<

Ah. That explains why Jake has his own listing and Don doesn't. 

Thanks!


JLH wrote:
>>>
Here's the thing... 
<<<

Ah, OK. And glancing at your suggestion over here I now see what you mean. Nice work!


JLH wrote:
>>>
Vengeance is more akin to Johnny Blaze. He's always, ALWAYS in control of his Ghost Rider side. Yes, he has a Spirit of Vengeance bound to him, but it's never named, and only ever shown in a FB in GR2 43 alongside three or four others. 
<<<

Hmmnn... Then how should that FlashBack be listed? I don't think it should go under Badilino, because that's not him. 


JLH wrote:
>>>
why give unnamed Spirits of Vengeance with no personality of their own and act as merely power sources listings?
<<<

Well, at least one other Spirit of Vengeance has shown a personality of his own. Who's to say that Vengeance doesn't have one, just because it wasn't shown? 

Maybe: 

Vengeance/[Spirit of Vengeance] 
GR2 43-FB 
see also Vengance/Michael Badilino 

Or something like that, until eventually 15 years from now someone adds a back story to him/it/whatever.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

15 Feb 2007 07:35 am 
By Somebody
Director

Bit of a digression, but one thing to remember about the Spirits of Vengeance at the end of GR3 (i.e., Pao Fu/Lian, Doghead, etc... and Black Rose, although she wasn't a SoV) is that they were become demons themselves, rather than bonded to pre-existing demons (even if Doghead was bonded to a, well, dog). More like Noble Kane than Blaze, Ketch or Badlino (although I suspect that Blaze may *be* the Ghost Rider demon in Way's series, rather than being bonded to Noble, Zarathos or some random demon). 

Like I say, digression, I just want to put that note down 

			*	*	*

20 Jul 2007 05:14 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

I should have just waited five months! 

According to the new Thor #1, there was a real Don Blake! And he was replaced by Thor, similar to Jake Olson. Now, the real Don Blake is back, now that Asgardian magic is no longer keeping him away, and he's the guy who was appearing in FF 'recently.' 

So eventually, I would say that Don gets his own listing.(not that he's actually appeared in that many comics, but still)

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

20 Jul 2007 08:18 am 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
I should have just waited five months!

According to the new Thor #1, there was a real Don Blake! And he was replaced by Thor, similar to Jake Olson. Now, the real Don Blake is back, now that Asgardian magic is no longer keeping him away, and he's the guy who was appearing in FF 'recently.' 

So eventually, I would say that Don gets his own listing.(not that he's actually appeared in that many comics, but still)
<<<

You'll note, however, that it's consistent with the Roy Thomas Wundagore/Blake story being crap

			*	*	*

20 Jul 2007 11:16 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
I should have just waited five months!

According to the new Thor #1, there was a real Don Blake! And he was replaced by Thor, similar to Jake Olson. Now, the real Don Blake is back, now that Asgardian magic is no longer keeping him away, and he's the guy who was appearing in FF 'recently.' 

So eventually, I would say that Don gets his own listing.(not that he's actually appeared in that many comics, but still)
<<<

Really? That's not quite how I understood the new Thor #1...I just read that when Thor ceased to exist, his alter ego Don Blake sprang back into existence. 

I mean, was there ever a Don Blake that was born as a baby and grew up and became a doctor, and who one day found Thor's hammer? Or is the Don Blake we see in Thor #1 still just a mystical shell that was created by Odin, (and who was exiled to "the void" when Thor no longer had a need to be Don Blake)?

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

20 Jul 2007 06:08 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
I just read that when Thor ceased to exist, his alter ego Don Blake sprang back into existence. 
<<<

Right. When Thor and Asgard went away, there was nothing keeping Don Blake in 'the void.' So he came back. If Don were just a shell created by Asgardian powers, the shell would have evaporated with Asgard... it shouldn't have continued to exist. But if Don were a man being kept away by Asgardian powers, when Asgard goes away, there's nothing to keep Don where he was. 


Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
I mean, was there ever a Don Blake that was born as a baby and grew up and became a doctor, and who one day found Thor's hammer? Or is the Don Blake we see in Thor #1 still just a mystical shell that was created by Odin
<<<

It's somewhere in the middle, I think. There was a Don Blake, but he was removed about ten years before 'Don Blake' found Thor's hammer. Meaning, Thor finished Don's schooling, started a practice, and eventually found Thor's hammer. 

This would mean that any childhood FlashBacks for Don Blake would be the real Don Blake, but any FlashBacks to Don Blake in medical school would be Thor in a Don Blake shell. 

...Right?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

20 Jul 2007 06:48 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
It's somewhere in the middle, I think. There was a Don Blake, but he was removed about ten years before 'Don Blake' found Thor's hammer. Meaning, Thor finished Don's schooling, started a practice, and eventually found Thor's hammer. 

This would mean that any childhood FlashBacks for Don Blake would be the real Don Blake, but any FlashBacks to Don Blake in medical school would be Thor in a Don Blake shell.

...Right?
<<<

I think "Wait and see" would be the wisest answer. There simply is not the information available at this point to make ought but a foolish guess.

			*	*	*

21 Jul 2007 02:35 am 
By Starman

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
But if Don were a man being kept away by Asgardian powers, when Asgard goes away, there's nothing to keep Don where he was.
<<<

That sounds like a very cruel thing to do towards someone. What's next? He takes revenge like the guy in the movie "Old Boy"? (Similar story. Man is kidnapped and locked away in a cell for 15 years without explanation. When he gets out, he tries to find out the truth about his kidnapping and take revenge.)

- Stefan

"Pub, ah yes. A meeting place where people attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Subject: WBN Corrections

22 Jul 2007 06:23 pm 
By Dhall

Werewolf by Night Vol.1 corrections and additions: 


WEREWOLF/JACK RUSSELL <-S/B JACOB JACK RUSSELL 
**M/SPT 2-FB 
M/SPT 2 
M/SPT 3 
M/SPT 4 
WBN 1 
WBN 2 
WBN 3 
**WBN 4-FB 
WBN 4 
WBN 5 
WBN 6 
WBN 7 
WBN 8 
**M/TU 12-FB 
M/TU 12 
WBN 9 
WBN 10 
WBN 11 
WBN 12 
**WBN 12-FB 
**WBN 12 
**WBN 13-FB 
WBN 13 
WBN 14 
TOD 17 
TOD 18 
WBN 15 
WBN 16 
WBN 17 
GSCR 1 <-CANNOT GO HERE, issue 17 Continues directly into 18. 
WBN 18 
**WBN 19-FB 
WBN 19 
**GSCR 1 (suggested new placement, this book is referenced in issue 20, so it must occur before that issue.) 
WBN 20 
WBN 21 
GSWBN 2 
WBN 22 
**WBN 23-FB 
WBN 23 
WBN 24 
WBN 25 
WBN 26 
GSWBN 3 
WBN 27 
WBN 28 
WBN 29 
WBN 30 
GSWBN 4 
**GSWBN 4/2 
**GSWBN 5 ?Suggested new placement. 
WBN 31 
GSWBN 5 <-REMOVE, cant go in between Wbn 31 and 32, which is an continuing story. 
**WBN 32-FB 
WBN 32 
WBN 33 
M/PRM 28 
**WBN 34-FB 
WBN 34 
WBN 35 
WBN 36 
WBN 37 
WBN 38 
WBN 39 
WBN 40 
WBN 41 
**WBN 42-FB 
WBN 42 
WBN 43 


RUSSELL, LISSA 
M/SPT 2 
M/SPT 3 
M/SPT 4 
WBN 1 
WBN 2 
WBN 3 
**WBN 4-FB 
WBN 4 
WBN 5 
WBN 6 
WBN 7 
WBN 8 
** M/TU 12-FB 
M/TU 12 
WBN 9 
WBN 10 
WBN 11 
**WBN 12 
**WBN 12-FB 
**WBN 14 
WBN 17 
WBN 18 
WBN 20 
GSWBN 2 
WBN 22 
WBN 24 
WBN 25 
GSWBN 3 
WBN 28 
WBN 29 
WBN 28 
WBN 29 
WBN 30 
**GSWBN 5 
**WBN 31 
**WBN 32-FB 
WBN 32 
WBN 33 
**WBN 34-FB 
WBN 34 
WBN 35 
WBN 36 
WBN 37 
WBN 38 
WBN 39 
WBN 42 
S-W 19-FB 
M/PRM 59/2 
IM 209 

TOPAZ 
*WBN 13-FB 
*WBN 27-FB 
WBN 13 
WBN 14 
TOD 18 
WBN 15 
WBN 16 
WBN 17 
**WBN 27-FB 
GSWBN 3 
WBN 27 
WBN 28 
WBN 29 
WBN 30 
WBN 31 
**WBN 32-FB 
WBN 32 
WBN 33 
WBN 34 
**WBN 34-FB 
WBN 35 
WBN 36 
WBN 37 
WBN 38 
WBN 39 
WBN 40 
WBN 41 
**WBN 42-FB 
WBN 42 
WBN 43 
TOD 63-FB 
TOD 62 
TOD 63 
TOD 64 

COWEN, BUCK 
**WBN 23-FB-FB 
M/SPT 4 
WBN 1 
WBN 2 
WBN 6 
WBN 7 
WBN 8 
**M/TU 12-FB 
M/TU 12 
WBN 10 
WBN 11 
**WBN 12 
**WBN 12-FB 
WBN 17 
**WBN 21 
GSWBN 2 
WBN 22 
**WBN 23-FB 
WBN 23 
WBN 24 
WBN 25 
WBN 26 
GSWBN 3 
WBN 27 
WBN 28 
WBN 29 
WBN 30 
** GSWBN 4/2-FB 
GSWBN 4 <-S/B GSWBN 4/2 
**GSWBN 5 
WBN 31 
**WBN 32-FB 
**WBN 33 
WBN 34 <-S/B WBN 34-FB 
**WBN 35 
WBN 36 <-REMOVE, Buck is NOT in this issue. Only Belaric Marcosa disguised as Buck. 
WBN 37 
WBN 38 
WBN 39 
WBN 42 
S-W 19 
M/TU 93 
IM 209 


*RUSSELL, LAURA 
M/SPT 2-FB 
M/SPT 2 

*GRANT, MAX 
M/SPT 2 

*RUSSELL, PHILLIP 
M/SPT 2 
M/SPT 3 
M/SPT 4 
WBN 1 
WBN 3 
WBN 8 
WBN 9 
WBN 10 
WBN 11 
WBN 12 
WBN 13 
WBN 14 
WBN 17 
WBN 25 
GSWBN 3-FB 
GSWBN 3 
GSWBN 5 
WBN 32-FB 
WBN 37 

*RUSSOFF, BARON GREGORY 
WBN 13-FB 
WBN 3-FB 
M/SPT 2-FB 

*RUSSOFF, BARON 
WBN 15-FB 
WBN 18-FB 

**TIMLY, NATHAN 
M/SPT 3 

**TIMLY, ANDREA 
M/SPT 3 

**KRAIG 
M/SPT 3 

**BLACKGAR, MILES 
M/SPT 4 
WBN 1 

**BLACKGAR, MARLENE 
M/SPT 4 
WBN 1 

**Jocquez, Father Ramon 
WBN 2 
WBN 3 

**CEPHALOS, MARK 
WBN 2 

*AELFRIC 
WBN 3-FB 
WBN 3 

**KANE, JOSHUA 
WBN 21-FB 
WBN 4-FB 
WBN 4-FB 
WBN 4 

**KANE, LUTHER 
WBN 5 

*HEMP, JUDSON 
WBN 5 

*SWAMI RIHVA 
WBN 7-FB 
WBN 6 
WBN 7 

*HACKETT, Lt. LOU 
WBN 6 
WBN 8 
WBN 9 
WBN 10 
WBN 17 
WBN 18 
WBN 20 
WBN 21 

**MIGE 
WBN 6 
WBN 7 

*BIG ELMO 
WBN 7-FB 
WBN 6 
WBN 7 

*Calliope 
WBN 7-FB 
WBN 6 
WBN 7 

*KAMAN-RU 
WBN 7-FB 

*TREACH, AMOS 
WBN 8-FB 

*KROGG 
WBN 8-FB 
WBN 8 

SPIDER-MAN 
 
ASM 123 
LCHFH 12 
ASM 123 
**M/TU 12-FB 
M/TU 12 
DD 103 
M/TU 13 
ASM 124 
ASM 125 

ROBERTSON, JOE 
ASM 122 
ASM 123 
M/TU 12 <- S/B M/TU 12-FB 
ASM 124 

JAMESON, J. JONAH 
ASM 123 
LCHFH 12 
M/TU 12 <- S/B M/TU 12-FB 
ASM 124 

MOONDARK 
*M/TU 12-FB 
M/TU 12 
M/TU 91 
GR2 56 
GR2 59 

WEIN, LEN 
AA2 16 
T 207 
AA2 16 
T 207 
AA2 16 
T 207 
*WBN 9 
GSX 1 
M/PRM 24 
FF 176 
UX 123 
PPTSS 48 

WEIN, GLYNIS 
AA2 16 
T 207 
AA2 16 
T 207 
AA2 16 
T 207 
*WBN 9 
UX 123 

*SARNAK 
WBN 10-FB 
WBN 9 
WBN 10 


*SANDS, TINA SANDY 
WBN 11 
WBN 17 
WBN 19-FB 
WBN 24 
WBN 29 

*COKER, RAYMOND 
WBN 11 
WBN 12 
WBN 13-FB 
WBN 17 
WBN 18 
WBN 19-FB 
WBN 20 
WBN 21 
WBN 33-FB 
WBN 29 
WBN 31 
WBN 32 
WBN 33 
WBN 38 
WBN 39 
WBN 40 
WBN 41 

*BANITA (IF WE GET A LAST NAME) 
WBN 33-FB-FB 
WBN 33-FB 

*MAURA (IF WE GET A LAST NAME) 
WBN 33-FB 

*PAPA JARANDA 
WBN 33-FB-FB 
WBN 41 

*WINTER, CLARY/ MELODY TUNE 
WBN 11 
WBN 12 
WBN 12-FB 
WBN 13-FB 
WBN 17 
WBN 19-FB 
WBN 20 
GSWBN 4/2-FB 
GSWBN 4/2 

HANGMAN 
*WBN 11-FB 
WBN 11 
WBN 12 
*WBN 12-FB 
*WBN 12 
WBN 25 
WBN 26 
WBN 37 <-REMOVE, Hangman is NOT in this issue, only a phantasm pulled from Jack Russells mind. 
S-W 4 
S-W 5 
S-W 50 
BIZADV 31/3 

*WRANGLE, BRAD 
WBN 13-FB 
GSWBN 4/2-FB 
GSWBN 4/2 

*ALGON 
WBN 13-FB 
WBN 13 
WBN 14 

*THUNDER, BARON 
WBN 17 
WBN 18 
WBN 20 

*BEHEMOTH/ KAY-TWELVE 
WBN 17 
WBN 18 

*GABRIEL, MR. 
WBN 17 
GSWBN 4/2-FB 

*TRI-DELTA FIVE 
WBN 17 

*MA MAYHEM 
WBN 18 
WBN 20 

*TONG, LAWRENCE 
WBN 18 

*KABAL, GERALDO 
WBN 21-FB 
WBN 20 
WBN 21 

*VAYLA, DANTON 
GSWBN 2 

*KOLB, SIMON 
WBN 22 

*ATLAS/STEVE RAND 
WBN 23-FB 
WBN 22 
WBN 23 

Hey  Its time to rearrange the numbering on all of the Atlas characters. This one should be II, I believe. 

TABOO II 
A 187-FB 
DRSTR3 15/2-FB 
{WBN 13-FB} 
**WBN 27-FB 
WBN 13 
WBN 14 
**WBN 28-FB 
WBN 28 
WBN 29 
WBN 30 

*NORTHRUP, LT. VICTOR 
WBN 22 
WBN 23-FB 
WBN 23 
WBN 24 
WBN 25 
WBN 26-FB 
WBN 25 
WBN 26 
WBN 29 
WBN 31 
WBN 32 
WBN 33 
WBN 39 
WBN 40 
WBN 41 

*DEPRAYVE/WINSTON REDDITCH 
WBN 24 
WBN 25 
WBN 26 

*RUSOFF,BARONESS MARIA 
GSWBN 3-FB 
GSWBN 3 

*GLITTERNIGHT 
WBN 40-FB 
WBN 27-FB 
WBN 27-FB 
WBN 28-FB 
WBN 27 
WBN 28 
WBN 29 
WBN 30 
WBN 39 
WBN 40 
WBN 41 

*JEESALA 
WBN 29 
WBN 31 
WBN 32 
WBN 33 
WBN 38 

MARSTON, BUTTONS 
WBN 31 
**WBN 32-FB 
**WBN 33 
**WBN 34-FB 
WBN 42 
S-W 19-FB 

MARSTON, ELAINE 
WBN 31 
WBN 32 <- S/B WBN 32-FB 
WBN 33 
**WBN 34-FB 
WBN 34 
WBN 35 
WBN 36 
WBN 37 
WBN 42 
S-W 19-FB 

*ZAIRE, JOAQUIN 
GSWBN 5 

*PAINGLOSS 
GSWBN 5-FB 
GSWBN 5 

*GRITHSTANE 
GSWBN 5 

*DELANDRA 
GSWBN 5-FB 
GSWBN 5 

*SARDANUS 
GSWBN 5 

*STARSEED 
M/PRM 28 

*SELWIN, JEROME 
WBN 34-FB 

*MARCOSA, BELARIC 
WBN 35-FB 
WBN 36-FB 
WBN 34-BTS 
WBN 35 
WBN 36 
WBN 37 

*BLAINE, GIDEON 
WBN 36-FB 
WBN 34 
WBN 35 
WBN 36 
WBN 37 

*THREE WHO ARE ALL 
WBN 38 
WBN 40 

*FIRE-EYES 
WBN 41 

JARVIS, EDWIN 
 
149 
CA 224 
M/TU 41 
**WBN 42 
WBN 43 
A 150 
A 151 
A 152 
A 153 
A@ 6 
H2 206 
A 154 
SVTU 10-BTS 
A 157 
 

Note: That Jarvis' listing,and Iron Man's have WBN 42 and 43 in very different spots. One of these is wrong. 

According to the index these occur prior to Avengers 150. The Iron Man listing has them between A 156 and 157. 






*TRI-ANIMAN 
WBN 42 
WBN 43 

MOON KNIGHT/MARC SPECTOR/"STEVEN GRANT"/"JAKE LOCKLEY" 
 
MK 1-FB 
**WBN 32-FB-FB 
**WBN 32-FB 
{WBN 32} 
WBN 33 
WBN 37 <-REMOVE, Moon Knight is NOT in this issue, only a phantasm pulled from Jack Russells mind. 
M/SPT 28 
M/SPT 29 

FRENCHIE/JEAN-PAUL DUCHAMP 
MK 11-FB 
MK 1-FB 
MK 4-FB 
**WBN 32-FB 
WBN 32 
WBN 33 
M/SPT 28 
M/SPT 29 

TUMOLO, DR. JOANNE 
CAT 1-FB 
M/CHL 3-FB 
M/TIO 19-FB 
WCA2 6-FB 
CAT 2 
CAT 3-FB 
**GSCR 1-FB 
GSCR 1 
MU 10/3 
M/CHL 6 
M/PRM 42 

TIGRA/GREER NELSON 
CAT 1-FB 
TIGRA 1-FB 
CAT 1-FB 
CAT 2-FB 
TIGRA 1-FB 
CAT 1 
CAT 2 
CAT 3 
CAT 4 
M/TU 8-FB 
M/TU 8 
**GSCR 1-FB 
GSCR 1 
MU 10/3 

*AESKLA 
MU 10/3 

*SURISHA 
MU 10/3

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Midnight Sons related mistakes

Jun 17, 2007 2:28 am 
By JLH

BLACKOUT II/ 
... 
GR3 31 
AF 121 (MOVE FROM) 
GR3 41 
**AF 121 (MOVE TO) 
**GR3 41 
GR3 42 
... 
(Blackout's dead between GR3 31 and GR3 41. It has to be after he's revived, and the earliest point for an appearance would be between pages in GR3 41, though why he stopped by Canada to attend an auction of evil guys on his way to Dan Ketch's place is not my job to explain.) 


MONTESI, VICTORIA 
... 
DRSTR3 61 
SOV 18 (REMOVE) 
DRSTR3 72 
... 
(Though she does appear in that issue for a few panels, it's a giant mistake. At that point she's in mystical stasis, as done to her by Dr Strange. You can't even fit it between panels.) 

On a similar note, should the Lilin, Blood, and Fallen given race distinctions? They ARE offshoots of humanity, not too dissimilar to the Deviants and Eternals. 

And lastly, how come the Darkhold Dwarf doesn't have a listing in the MCP?

			*	*	*

Jun 17, 2007 11:51 pm 
By JLH

PARADOX/STRANGE is missing most of his appearances, despite them all having been analyzed into the project. And shouldn't he be listed as "STRANGE" until he actively is turned into "PARADOX"?

			*	*	*

Jul 23, 2007 4:25 am 
By JLH

Found a lot of gaps, and hopefully filled them correctly. 

DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE 
(added middle name) 
... 
DRSTR3 61 
**DRSTR@ 4-FB 
**DRSTR3 61 
[SOV 18]-REMOVE 
[MSU 4]-REMOVE 
**NS 16 (MOVED UP) 
**NS 17 (MOVED UP) 
**NS 18 (MOVED UP) 
**SECDEF 15 (MOVED UP) 
**SECDEF 17 (MOVED UP) 
DRSTR3 62 
DRSTR3 63 
[NS 16]=MOVE UP 
[NS 17]=MOVE UP 
[NS 18]=MOVE UP 
[ST3]=REMOVE 
DRSTR3 64 
[DRSTR3 65]=REMOVE 
DRSTR3 66 
[SECDEF 15]=MOVE UP 
[SECDEF 17]=MOVE UP 
DRSTR@ 4 
MSU 6 
**DRSTR3 67 (MOVED UP) 
MORBIUS 29 
H2 414 
[DRSTR3 67]=MOVE UP 
DRSTR3 70 
DRSTR3 71 
DRSTR3 72 
DRSTR3 73 
[MSU 8]=REMOVE 
DRSTR3 74 
... 

**STEVENS, DR. VINCENT 
DRSTR@ 4-FB 
DRSTR@ 4-FB 
{DRSTR3 62} 
DRSTR3 63 
DRSTR3 66 
DRSTR@ 4 
DRSTR3 67 
DRSTR3 68 
DRSTR3 70 
DRSTR3 71 
DRSTR3 72 
DRSTR3 73 
DRSTR3 74 


STRANGE 
**DRSTR@ 4-FB 
**{DRSTR3 61} 
**SOV 18 
**MSU 4 
**DRSTR@ 4-FB 
**SECDEF 15 
**SECDEF 17 
**DRSTR3 62 
**DRSTR3 63 
**DRSTR3 64 
**DRSTR3 65 
**DRSTR3 66 
**DRSTR@ 4 
DRSTR3 67 
DRSTR3 68 
DRSTR3 69-FB 
DRSTR3 69 
WIW 36 
**MSU 8 
**DRSTR3 70 
**DRSTR3 71 
**DRSTR3 72 
**DRSTR3 73 
**DRSTR3 74 
DRSTR3 75 
becomes PARADOX 

PARADOX 
from STRANGE and NOBEL 
DRSTR3 75 
DRSTR3 78 
**DRSTR3 83 


SISTER NIL 
DRSTR3 60 
**DRSTR3 63 
**DRSTR3 66 
DRSTR@ 4 
... 

SALOME 
M/CP 146/3 
DRSTR3 61 
**DRSTR3 61~DRSTR@ 4-FB 
**DRSTR3 61 
MSU 5 
NS 17 
NS 18 
**DRSTR3 64 
DRSTR3 65 
DRSTR3 66 
DRSTR@ 4 
M/CP 162/3 
M/CP 163/3 
BLADE 4 
BLADE 5 
DRSTR3 71 
**DRSTR3 72-BTS (add the BTS) 
DRSTR3 73 
DRSTR3 74 
DRSTR3 75 

WONG 
... 
DRSTR3 60 
**DRSTR3 64 
DRSTR3 65 
... 


CHANG, IMEI 
... 
DRSTR3 60 
becomes XAOS 
DRSTR3 88 

**XAOS 
see also CHANG, IMEI 
DRSTR3 65 
DRSTR3 66 
DRSTR@ 4 
DRSTR3 71 
DRSTR3 76 
DRSTR3 81 
DRSTR3 88 

CLEA 
... 
DRSTR3 50 
**DRSTR3 67-FB 
DRSTR@ 4/2 
... 

NOBEL (incorrectly listed as NOBLE (sic)) 
**DRSTR3 67-FB 
DRSTR3 73 
**DRSTR3 75 
merges with STRANGE, becomes PARADOX 



RICHARDS, NATHANIEL 
... 
FF 387 
**DRSTR3 62 
FF 393 
... 


MORBIUS/DR. MICHAEL MORBIUS 
... 
MSU 5 
**DRSTR3 62 
**DRSTR3 63 
MORBIUS 20 
MORBIUS 21 
MORBIUS 22 
MORBIUS 23 
**DRSTR3 66 
MORBIUS 24 
... 

BLADE/ERIC BROOKS 
... 
NS 18 
**DRSTR3 63 
BLADE 1 
**DRSTR3 66 
MSU 7/2 
... 

MODRED THE MYSTIC 
... 
MSU 5 
**DRSTR3 63 
MORBIUS 29-BTS 
... 


VENGEANCE/MICHAEL BADILINO 
... 
MSU 5 
M/CP 152/3 
M/CP 153/3 
M/CP 154/3 
M/CP 155/3 
M/CP 156/3 
M/CP 157/3 
M/CP 158/3 
M/CP 159/3 
**DRSTR3 65 
**DRSTR3 66 
**GR3 48 (moved up) 
M/CP 160/3 
M/CP 161/3 
M/CP 162/3 
M/CP 163/3 
[M/CP 164/3]=MOVE DOWN 
[GR3 48]=MOVE UP 
GR3 49 
SOV 22 
GR3 50 
GR3 52 
GR@ 2/2-FB 
GR@ 2/2 
[GR3 52/2]=move down 
**M/CP 164/3 (moved down) 
M/CP 165/3 
M/CP 166/3 
M/CP 167/3 
M/CP 168/3 
M/CP 169/3 
M/CP 170/3-FB 
M/CP 170/3 
M/CP 171/3 
M/CP 172/4 
M/CP 173/3 
M/CP 174/3 
M/CP 175/4 
**GR3 52/2 
V:NOV 1 
... 

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
... 
N 50 
FF 387 
**DRSTR3 64 
**DRSTR3 65 
M/CP 149/4 
... 

AGAMOTTO 
... 
DRSTR3 54 
SECDEF 25 
**DRSTR3 71 
**DRSTR3 72 
**DRSTR3 80-BTS 

HOGGOTH 
... 
DRSTR3 54 
**DRSTR3 71 
**DRSTR3 72-BTS 
**DRSTR3 80-BTS 

OSHTUR 
... 
DRSTR3 54 
**DRSTR3 71 
**DRSTR3 72-BTS 
**DRSTR3 80-BTS 


For the record, why is ST3 listed in about its publication date? There's virtually nothing in it that reflects "modern day". Thing's face isn't scarred, Dr Strange is in his older traditional costume at a time when he wasn't in it.

			*	*	*

Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:55 am 
By Somebody
Director

JLH wrote:
>>>
Found a lot of gaps, and hopefully filled them correctly.

DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE
(added middle name)
<<<

Shouldn't "Stephen Sanders" (in quotation marks) be tacked on to the end of that as well? It was his (retroactive, thanks to Eternity) legal name for a while.

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Subject: M/CP 43/4

23 Jul 2007 12:54 am 
By TheDeuce

i trying to place siryn's story in this big reading order i found on here. this one's missing. any suggestions on where to maybe place it. i know it goes between issues 5 and 6 of x-force, but i'm not sure where in this reading order. thanks for any help! 

X-FORCE 1-3 
SPM 16 
X-FORCE 4 
Marvel Comics Presents 90-97 (Cable/Ghost Rider Story only) 
X-FORCE 5 
SHIELD 33-35 

NOMAD VOL.2 #2 (Val Cooper) 

DAREDEVIL 307 
Nomad Vol.2 #4 (Deadpool, Tolliver) 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL 45 
NOMAD VOL.2 #5 
DAREDEVIL 308 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL 46 
DARDEVIL 309 
NOMAD VOL.2 #6 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL 47 


SPIDER-MAN 15 
WONDER MAN 5-6 (BEAST) 


NEW WARRIORS 20 (MARIKO) 

AVENGERS 344 

Operation Galactic Storm: 
CAP AMERICA 398 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 80 
QUASAR 32 
WONDER MAN 7 
AVENGERS 345 
IRON MAN 278 
THOR 445 
CAP AMERICA 399 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 81 
QUASAR 33 
WONDER MAN 8 
AVENGERS 346 
IRON MAN 279 
THOR 446 
CAP AMERICA 400 
AVENGERS WEST COAST 82 
QUASAR 34 
WONDER MAN 9 
AVENGERS 347 


X-FACTOR 74 
X-FACTOR 75 
HULK 390-391; X-FACTOR 76; HULK 392 

ALPHA FLIGHT 102-106 
ALPHA FLIGHT 107 (X-FACTOR) 


MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 85-92 (WOLVERINE STORY) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 89 (X-MEN/MOJO) 
QUASAR 28 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 93-98 (WOLVERINE STORY) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 99 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 100 
HEARTS OF DARKNESS (WOLVERINE) 
WOLVERINE AND THE PUNISHER 1-3 
WOLVERINE 54 (SHATTERSTAR) (HAS TO BE BEFORE 48-50 DUE TO BROWN COSTUME) 
WOLVERINE 48-50 

EXCALIBUR: THE POSSESSION 
EXCALIBUR: AIR APPARENT 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 174 (TECHNET) 

KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON 1-13 
KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON 18 

EXCALIBUR 42-52 
EXCALIBUR 53 
SPIDER-MAN 25 (CAPTAIN BRITAIN AND MEGGAN) 
EXCALIBUR 54 

X-MEN 4-7 
UNCANNY X-MEN 281-286 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 101-108 (NIGHTCRAWLER/WOLVERINE) 
WOLVERINE 51-53 
WOLVERINE 55-57 
WOLVERINE 60-64 
WOLVERINE 65 
WOLVERINE 58-59 

X-MEN ANNUAL 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN 287-288 

X-MEN 8 
GHOST RIDER 26 
X-MEN 9 
GHOST RIDER 27 

GHOST RIDER 29 (Wolverine) 
MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 109-116 

AVENEGRS WEST COAST 83 (QUICKSILVER) 
X-FACTOR 77 
X-FACTOR 78 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 402-407 
CAPTAIN AMERICA 408 (FIRST STORY) (WOLFSBANE) 

DOCTOR STRANGE (3rd SERIES) #41 (WOLVERINE) 

UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 16 STORY 3 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 16 STORY 1 
UNCANNY X-MEN ANNUAL 16 STORY 2 
X-FACTOR ANNUAL 7 STORY 1, 2, 3 

WOLVERINE: EVILUTION (BOOM-BOOM) 
New warriors 19 (Gideon) 
NIGHT THRASHER 3 (GIDEON) 
X-FORCE 6-10

			*	*	*

23 Jul 2007 09:25 am 
By jephyork
Director

Given that Siryn DOESN'T APPEAR in any of these stories that your "reading order" has between XFOR #5-6 -- what does it matter? Put it anywhere you like, it makes zero difference. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

23 Jul 2007 10:14 am 
By TheDeuce

you know, i kind of guessed that but i wasn't sure. so is that how you guys usually do things? if the character doesn't appear in the comics that happen inbetween their appearances than it can go anywhere? that makes it a lot easier. thanks.

			*	*	*

23 Jul 2007 11:05 am 
By jephyork
Director

Well, sometimes there are subtle placement clues, like visual or dialogue references to other stories that have recently occurred in the Marvel Universe (a newspaper headline about a recent superhero fight, or a shot of, say, a damaged Avengers Mansion). Those would allow us to say "okay, it not only takes place between Siryn's appearances in XFOR #5-6, but also after that battle at Avengers Mansion in issue #600" (for example). 

But in general, yeah -- if only one ongoing character appears in a story, and there are no other clues or references about the greater Marvel Universe -- well, the most we can narrow it down is "it occurs between appearance X and appearance Y for that one character". To place it on a larger "reading order" anywhere past that level of accuracy would be completely random -- it literally could have happened *anytime* in that range, so you might as well just put it anywhere you like. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Subject: M/FEA 11, 12, M/TIO 1

29 Jul 2007 09:05 am 
By Dhall

M/FEA 11, 12, M/TIO 1, Asm 126, 127 
In the MCP these issues are shown as if they occurred between FF 139 and 140. I know this placement comes from the index, however the index does not explain HOW that is possible. Clearly there needs to be a gap placed somewhere in the FFs listings to accommodate these appearances. Clearly they have to occur sometime after CM 26, due to Thanos appearances. 

The Things listing currently looks like this: 

A 118 
CM 26 
FF 134 
FF 135 
FF 136 
FF 137 
FF 138 
FF 139 
M/FEA 11 
M/FEA 12 
M/TIO 1 
FF 140 
SUB-M 67 
FF 140 

The problem is that FF 140 continues directly on from 138-139, and shows Thing, Medusa, Torch, and Wyatt returning to the Baxter Building from fighting the Miracle Man in FF 138-139. There is no time for a break in the middle of FF 140, as there is a break in that issue which is completely filled by SUB-M 67. (Reed gets called by Sue in FF 140, interrupted by Sub-M in Sub-m 67, then goes to find Sue in FF 140) So M/FEA 11-12 cannot go in the middle of FF 140. Being that these issues must occur after CM 26, is there any reason we cannot move them to between CM 26 and FF 134?

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Subject: M/S&L 1/3

29 Jul 2007 11:34 am 
By Dhall

BLASTAAR 
M/TIO 75-FB 
{FF 62} 
FF 63 
DEF2 10 
UX 53 
**M/TU 18-FB 
M/S&L 1/3 <- Cannot go here 
M/TU 18 
INH 1 
INH 2 

There is a flashback in M/TU 18, which bridges the gap between UX 53, and M/TU 18. After UX 53, Blastaar's body was stored in a tube in an upstate NY research lab, until Professor Paxton Pentecost revived him in M/TU 18. 

So M/S&L 1/3 can't go where it's currently placed in Blastaar's chronology. 
(Blastaar is both "dead by human standards, and in a tube in a research facility, and not available to appear in the Negative Zone during this period.)

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Subject: SWII 7

30 Jul 2007 06:38 pm 
By Ork

Hi, 

I was re-reading the second Secret Wars and looked to see if all the recognizable members of the Legion Accursed (in SWII 7) had an entry in the MCP. 

Not found in SWII 7, recorded in the MCP: 
Ms Marvel II, Zemo II. 

Maybe these two appear because of a confusion with another character. Or I may have not seen them. 

Not found in MCP: 
Anaconda, Blastaar, Crimson Dynamo, Doctor Doom, Graviton, Kang, Living Laser, Mole Man, Ultron. 

Also, from the New Mutants: Mirage II is not listed. I think it should appear between UX 201 and NM 36 (like Cannonball or Sunspot).

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Subject: Star-Lord

30 Jul 2007 06:30 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Just noticed that Star-Lord/Peter Quill doesn't have an entry, and I don't know which pre-Annihilation issues he appears in. Anyone got a list, to add to the Checklist if nothing else?

			*	*	*

30 Jul 2007 07:12 pm 
By JLH

The only stories that he appears pre-Annihilation in that are certainly canon would be within Thanos #7-12. He has a sort of "future vision" cameo in Inhumans v4 (or 3... the Ladronn one) #4. How exactly Starlord is so well known throughout space in the modern day Marvel Universe, when he's been so clearly established to come from a possible future... well, even the Handbook guys have trouble with that.

			*	*	*

30 Jul 2007 07:23 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Well, AC:STARLORD 1-FB (1-3) appears to reference prior (i.e. pre-Thanos) Star-Lord stories - certainly, his origin, and I don't know whether the pictures, other than the previously-unseen "Death of Star-Lord", specifically refer to prior stories or not. 

If he's from the future, then, logically, time-travel is involved to some point significantly in the past. And future stories can be canon in those circumstances - Rachel Summers leaps to mind as one such character that applies to, as stories (for her) pre-NM 18 & UX 184 still appear in her backstory, even if that backstory is technically in the future.

			*	*	*

30 Jul 2007 08:00 pm 
By Enda80

http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibliography-AZ10 


Jason of Spartoi left empire in exile, later travelled back in time & sired Peter Quill (Inhumans #4, 2000); Peter Quill born, mother killed by aliens, Peter became astronaut & then Star-Lord (Marvel Preview #4, 1976); traveled to fathers time, 

Star-Lord's bibliopgraphy indicates extensive time-travel was involved. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/shakatik.htm 

Kyras Shakati's appearances at Lilandra's coronation as well as in an Inhumans mini-series has interesting features.

			*	*	*

31 Jul 2007 02:13 am 
By JLH

Not a single one of the stories, not Inhumans, none of it ever even hints at time travel. Peter Quill in his "origin story" as Starlord, comes from the then-future of the late 1980s, as part of a typically far-flung superfuture with all sorts of wacky astronaut programs that even tend to break MU standards for Earthen technology. 

I'd much rather have Peter's origin happen in the future, then the bulk of stories that don't HAVE to take place then happening in our timeline's past. Handbook's suggestion that Jason went back in time, returned to his future, then Peter kept coming back and forth from that future, is pretty ridiculous. In the stories, Jason crashlands on Earth. After fathering Peter, he only gets off the planet by way of someone from his planet coming to get him and telling him of the strife Spartoi was currently going through. It just overcomplicates things to have so many characters going back in time so readily. He's STAR Lord, not a TIME Lord.

			*	*	*

31 Jul 2007 10:01 am 
By Somebody
Director

Fair enough - but does it matter if he time-travels once, many times, or not at all from an MCP perspective? 

All we need is: 

"Do these stories occur in Peter Quill's canonical backstory? If YES, then they go in." 

The Calendar, of course, might have more of a problem, but that's a separate matter. 

Incidentally, I didn't realise I had a Handbook with an entry for S-L/Quill [ANOHOTMU10]. The sequence of events presented for the latter part of his backstory, as referred to in Thanos & Annihilation, is completely out-of-whack in light of AC:STARLORD 1-FB anyway, since it explicitly refers to him losing Ship & starting on cybernetic implants before the Fallen One event, since they were trying to tie the "twelve years later" non-Quill Starlord mini into it. 

Another example of how readily people should take the HB's interpretation of unseen events 

			*	*	*

Thread 30

Subject: Riot at Xaviers/Holy War

31 Jul 2007 03:18 am 
By Lucifer

I'm currently reading the Chuck Austen and Grant Morrison X-Men stories. And the chronological issues are starting to give me a headache. 

I took a look at some of the chronologies here and found Dhall's reading order a great help (hope you'll find some time to update that reading order some time). 

Unfortunately I found some problems. 

From DHall's reading order (the chronology project comes up with the same order as far as I can see): 

X 131 
X 132 
X 133 
XSTATIX 4-BTS 
UX 410 
UX 411 
UX 412 
UX 413 
UX 414 
XSTATIX 6 
XSTATIX 7 
XSTATIX 8 
UX 416 
UX 419 
UX 420 
UX 421 
UX 422 
XX 21 
XX 22 
XX 23 
W/DOOP 1 
W/DOOP 2 
UX 425 
UX 426-BTS 
X 134 
XSTATIX 13 
X 135 
X 136 
X 137 
X 138 
UX 429 
UX 430 
UX 431 
UX 433 
UX 434 
UX 435 
UX 436 
X 139 
NM2 2 
X 140 
X 141 
NM2 3 


The problem starts with UX 420/421. Alpha Flight comes by to take all the children away from Xaviers. A Chuck Austen plot which hardly makes sense, but okay. The storie refers to a Riot which proves the children aren't safe at Xaviers. So this story should come after X 138 the end of the Riot at Xaviers storyline. 

But at the end of X 138 Jean finds Scott and Emma together after coming back from Hongkong. She returned from Hongkong with Dust who she found in X 133. So I ideally there wouldn't be any Jean Grey appereances between X 133 and 138. 
The story in X 139 picks up right after 138 and continues in the murder in the mansion storyline in which Emma Frost dies. This story ends in x 141 

So I guess UX 420 should come after X 141 then? But I'm affraid that would cause further problems in following stories. 

Has this been discussed in the past? Has a solution been found? Any one care to help, so I can get rid of my head ache? 

Lucifer

			*	*	*

31 Jul 2007 09:18 am 
By jephyork
Director

Yep, we discussed it in the past -- since it sounds like you haven't read the rest of Morrison's run, I won't spoil it for you, but basically the problem was that any and all appearances of Cyclops and Phoenix together on-panel *have* to occur before X #134. 

So in order to place UX #420-421 prior to X #134, we found it necessary to reinterpret the "recent riot" comment as a reference to the Shi'Ar attack in X #123-126. 

Trust us -- you'll see why eventually.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

31 Jul 2007 03:14 pm 
By Lucifer

Thanks Jeph. I guess that is the most sensible solution and it actually works pretty well. And since you spared me a big head ache I am now eternally gratefull (at least till tomorrow  ) 

Lucifer

			*	*	*

Thread 31

Subject: Sub-Mariner additions

31 Jul 2007 10:03 pm 
By Dhall

PRENTISS, BETTY DEAN 
INV 29-FB 
INV 4 
M/U 1 
{SUB-M 8} 
SUB-M 52 
SUB-M 54 
SUB-M 55 
SUB-M 57 
DEF 5 
SUB-M 61 
SUB-M 62-BTS <-S/B SUB-M 62 
SUB-M 70 
SVTU 2 

Note: Betty is listed as BTS in issue 62, where she and Namorita are imprisoned by Dr. Hydro. However she is actually seen on Page 2, Panel 2 of issue 62, and therefore should have an actual appearance listed for this issue. 

*IBBAR 
SUB-M 64-FB 
SUB-M 64 
SUB-M 65 
SUB-M 66 
SUB-M 67 
SUB-M 68 
SUB-M 69 

*ARIEL 
SUB-M 64-FB 
SUB-M 64 
SUB-M 65 
SUB-M 66 
SUB-M 67 
SUB-M 68 
SUB-M 69 

*ZARGUS 
SUB-M 64-FB 
SUB-M 64 
SUB-M 65 
SUB-M 66 
SUB-M 67 

*KABAL 
SUB-M 64-FB 
SUB-M 64 
SUB-M 65 
SUB-M 66 
SUB-M 67 
SUB-M 68 
SUB-M 69 

VIRAGO 
**SUB-M 64-FB 
SUB-M 64 
SUB-M 65 
SUB-M 66 
SUB-M 67 

RAHN, TAMARA 
 
SUB-M 64 
**SUB-M 66 
SUB-M 67 
SUB-M 68 
** SUB-M 69 
SUB-M 70 

*WALTHERS, DR. DAMON 
SUB-M 66 
SUB-M 67 
SUB-M 69 

*CROFT, DR. HENRY 
SUB-M 70-FB 
SUB-M 68 
SUB-M 69 
SUB-M 70 

*ARLEN, DR. MIKE 
SUB-M 69 


SUB-MARINER/NAMOR 
 
SUB-M 64 
SUB-M 65 
SUB-M 66 
SUB-M 67 
** SUB-M 68-FB 
**SUB-M 67 
SUB-M 68 
SUB-M 69 
M/TIO 2 
GSSVTU 1-FB <- S/B GSSVTU 1 (THIS IS NOT A FB) 
SUB-M 70 
SUB-M 71 
DEF 13 
DEF 14 
**FF 147-FB 
FF 147 
FF 148 
FF 149 
SUB-M 72 
GSDEF 3 
CA 181 
GSSVTU 2 
 

DR. DOOM 
 
A 118 
FF 141-BTS 
FF 142 
FF 143 
FF 144 
IM 74-FB <- Remove, cannot go here (Doom is falling from space at the end of ff144, which is where gsstvu 1 picks up. 
GSSVTU 1 
** IM 74-FB 
FF 155 
FF 156 
FF 157 
IM 102-FB 
GSSVTU 2 
SVTU 1 
 


MR. FANTASTIC 
 
FF 140 
SUB-M 67 
** SUB-M 68-FB 
**SUB-M 67 
FF 140 
 

DR. STRANGE 
 
M 56 
DEF 12 
GSDEF 1 
**SUB-M 68 
SUB-M 69 
DEF 13 
DEF 14 

PIRANHA 
M/TU 14 <- S/B M/TU 14-BTS 
**SUB-M 71-FB 
SUB-M 70 
SUB-M 71 
M/TIO 28 
DEF2 7 
DEF2 11

			*	*	*

Thread 32

Subject: Various FF additions

31 Jul 2007 10:13 pm 
By Dhall

HUMAN TORCH II 
FF 131 
FF 132 
FF 133 
LCHFH 9 
M/TU 10 
*M/TU 10-FB 
*M/TU 10 
A 118 
FF 134 
FF 135 
 
FF 144 
M/TIO 2 
ASM 130 
**FF 145-FB 
FF 145 
FF 146 

*LANDERS, BOB 
FF 134 
FF 140 
FF 142 
FF 147-FB 
FF 147 

*LANDERS, CAROL 
FF 134 
FF 139 
FF 140 
FF 142 
FF 143 
FF 147-FB 
FF 147 

*BRAIN/ SLUGGER JOHNSON 
FF 136-FB 
FF 134-BTS 
FF 135-BTS 
FF 136 
FF 137 

*THORNE, SAM 
FF 51 
FF 61 
FF 138 
FF 142 
FF 143 
FF 144 

*THORNE, BELLE 
FF 51 
FF 138 
FF 142 
FF 143 
FF 144 

*SILENT FOX 
FF 80 
FF 138 
FF 139 
M/TU 32 

*LIGHT HORSE 
FF 138-FB 
FF 139 

MIRACLE MAN 
FF 3 
**FF 138-FB 
FF 138 
FF 139 
M/TIO 8 
DEF 120 
DEF 121 
DEF 122 
TG 24 


KURRGO 
FF 7 
**M/FEA 11-FB 
M/FEA 11 

MEDUSA 
FF 137 
FF 138 
FF 139 
**M/FEA 11-BTS 
FF 140 
SUB-M 67 
FF 140 
 
FF 144 
**FF 145-FB 
FF 145 
FF 146 

INVISIBLE WOMAN 
 
FF 142 
FF 143 
**FF 147-FB 
FF 147 
FF 148 
FF 149 
A 127 
FF 150 
 

BLASTAAR 
M/TIO 75-FB 
{FF 62} 
FF 63 
DEF2 10 
UX 53 
**M/TU 18-FB 
M/S&L 1/3 <- Cannot go here, Not sure where it does go. 
M/TU 18 
INH 1 
INH 2 


*PENTECOST, PROFESSOR PAXTON 
M/TU 18-FB-BTS 
M/TU 18 
T 270-BTS 

*STUTGART, HANS 
FF 141 
FF 142 

*TUUMAR 
M/TIO 2 

*ZENEG 
M/TIO 2 

*TERNAK 
FF 145 
FF 146 

*THE MASTER 
FF 145-FB 
FF 146-FB 
FF 146

			*	*	*

Thread 33

Subject: What If? 35 vol. 1, 1st story

02 Jul 2007 05:36 pm 
By Starman

What If? 35 (volume one, first story) 

Published: 
October, 1982 

Title: 
...What if Bullseye had not killed Elektra? 

Story/Plot: Frank Miller 
Pencil/Layout: Frank Miller 
Ink/Finishing: Terry Austen 

Earth-616 Appearances: 
Daredevil, Uatu the Watcher 

Brief Synopsis: 
Matt Murdock is standing in front of Elektra's grave. Uatu arrives and tell Matt a story about what would have happened if Bullseye hadn't killed Elektra. 

References: 
As Matt is standing in front of Elektra's grave on the last page of DD 181, in the same clothes even. I believe that this issue's event is in direct continuation of DD 181. 

DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK 
[...] 
DD 181 
***WI? 35 
DEF 103 
DEF 104 
DEF 106-FB 
M/FAN 1/2 
FF 242 
FF 243 
DEF 106 
DEF 107 
M/CP 136/4-FB 
DD 182 
[...] 

***UATU [WATCHER] (Add that he's one of the Watchers, which is missing.) 

Well, where should WI? 35 be in his chronology? ... Eh ... Help me?- Stefan

"Pub, ah yes. A meeting place where people attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Subject: Monsters Unleashed 1/4

04 Jul 2007 10:29 am 
By Dhall

Monsters Unleashed 1/4 
Skulls in the Stars 

Characters Appearing: 
Solomon Kane (also in brief fb, occurring directly before this story) 
Ezra (also in fb) 
Gideon (also in fb) 

Solomon Kane stands at a crossroads, there are two ways to go to get to Torkertown. The locals have already warned him (in the fb) not to take the haunted road across the moors, yet when he hears screams he goes that way. Kane fights a ghost that cannot be harmed by his weapons, but only by his courageous spirit. The ghost tells Kane his story, which is that he was Gideon, a man who was murdered by his cousin Ezra. Now Gideon stalks the moors killing everyone he comes into contact with, in hopes of avenging his murder. The next day Kane rallies the villagers, and they go to Ezras shack. Ezra confesses to the murder, and as punishment Kane and the villagers take him to the moors and tie him to a tree, for Gideon to find and punish. 


*KANE, SOLOMON 
MU 1 /4-FB 
MU 1 /4

			*	*	*

06 Jul 2007 09:10 pm 
By Enda80

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%2 ... ND+Dracula 

This dregdes up several online bibliographies for Solomon Kane. Dracula's Handbook entry places Kane's adventures against this vampire. I must dig it out. It says the battles took place between 1553 and 1566.

			*	*	*

Thread 35

Subject: Wolverine: Origins 12-15

Jul 03, 2007 11:13 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine: Origins #12 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: May, 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Cyber(Silas Burr), Daken, Tinkerer, Milos body, Milos mom, Milos dad, Col. Nick Fury-FB, Hardrive-FB, Hurricane III-FB, Spyne-FB, Mysterious Red Hat Guy-FB. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4: same night as end of last issue 
Cyber, in Milos body, kills Milos dad and threatens Milos mom. 
Pg5: Magdeburg, Germany 
Wolverine reflects on the events of previous issues, then wonders what his sons name is. 
Pg6-pg8: Potsdam Germany 
Daken(Wolverines son) is contacted by the Mysterious Red Hat Guy through an intermediary, who tells Daken that the Mysterious Red Hat Guy is unhappy with Daken for freeing Wolverine from SHIELD custody. Daken kills the messenger. 
Pg9: someplace 
Cyber meets with the Tinkerer. 
Pg10-FB 
Cyber, a drill instructor, spits in Logans face. 
Pg11-FB 
Cyber has killed Logans girlfriend Janet. When Logan attacks, Cyber rips out one of his eyes. 
Pg12-FB 
Cyber is imprisoned by SHIELD, and has a chat with Nick Fury. 
Pg13-FB 
Cyber is broken out of imprisonment by the Dark Riders. 
Pg14-FB 
Cyber is eaten alive by Death Watch Beetles. 
Pg15-FB 
Cybers consciousness leaves his body, floats around for a few years, and eventually finds Milo. 
Pg16-pg22 
Cyber chats with the Tinkerer, Wolverine & Daken both make their way to Brussels. 

References: 
It only took a little over a year, but Wolverines son finally has a name! However, I still have to keep typing out the Mysterious Red Hat Guy, which is aggravating. I know that's the point of the mystery, but still... 

Pg1-pg4 are on the same night as the end of last issue, and pg5-pg22(minus FlashBacks) seem to be the next day. 

Pg12-FB takes place sometime between W2 81(where Cyber is captured) & W2 93(where Cyber is freed). Cyber is captured in Scotland in W2 81 & hes still imprisoned in Scotland in W2 93, but this Flashbacks says hes being held by SHIELD. The dialogue suggests that Cyber chats with Fury shortly after hes captured, so Id put it a few days after that. I suppose its not that far of a stretch to assume that after Cyber was captured he was transferred to SHIELD custody, and after Cyber feeds Fury some information over time hes transferred back to Scotland. 

Pg13-FB rehashes Cybers escape with the help of the Dark Riders as shown in W2 93 but there are discrepancies. In W2 93 he shackled to the wall, in W: O 12 hes sitting on a bench. We can chalk this up to Cyber misremembering details. 

Pg14-FB shows new scenes of Cyber being eaten alive for his adamantium, adding to W2 96. 

W: O 12 (14:1)-FB Cyber, Hardrive, & Hurricane III in door way. 
W2 96 (23:1-23:2) Hardrive & Hurricane III shut the door and release the DWBs. 
W: O 12 (14:2)-FB Cybers trapped! 
W2 96 (23:3-23:4) the DWBs attack! 
W: O 12 (14:3-4)-FB Cyber is eaten alive! 
W2 96 (24) Cybers adamantium is retrieved. 
W: O 12 (15:1-15:3)-FB Cybers consciousness leaves. 
-Cyber floats around for a few years- 
W: O 12 (15:4-15:6)-FB Cybers consciousness finds Milo. 

Pg10-FB & pg11-FB take place sometime in the past,(revealed later to be 1912) when Logan was undergoing basic training in the Canadian military. Cyber kills his blonde girlfriend Janet, which was the same event as shown in the FlashBacks in M/CP 87 & 88. The difference is, Logan & Janet were 50s teens and Cyber was a coach in M/CP. This W: O FlashBack would be the actual event, and the M/CP FBs would be subconsciously colored dream memories. I have to say that's a pretty cool reversal. 

Wolverine: Origins #13 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: June, 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Cyber(Silas Burr), Daken. 
Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: day after last issue 
Wolverine breaks into a bank in Brussels to get the Carbonadium and is attacked by Daken. Cyber shows up. 

References: 
Last issue, Cyber mentions his new suit will be ready within 24 hours, making this issue the next day. 

Wolverine: Origins #14 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: July, 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Cyber(Silas Burr), Daken, Milos mom, Sabretooth(Victor Creed)-FB. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg13: same day as last issue 
Wolverine, Daken, and Cyber fight. Cyber reveals that he works for the same people Daken does, and that he trained Daken. Daken leaves after Cyber has a heart attack. Elsewhere, Milos mom gives his heart medicine to the local authorities, in case they find him. 
Pg14-pg15pn3: next day 
Cyber wakes up in a sewer and Wolverine interrogates him. 
Pg15pn4-pg20-FB: Sioux City, Iowa, Spring 1912 
Silas Burr is found guilty of all kinds of horrible things and is sentenced to hang, but Sabretooth frees him and drives him to Canada where they meet with Mr. Hudson. 
Pg21-pg22pn1: same day as pg15pn3 
Cyber passes out. 
Pg22pn2-pg22pn4-FB: between pgs 13 & 14 
Wolverine picks up the Carbonadium. 
Pg22pn5-pg23: same day as pg22pn1 
Wolverine picks up Cyber. 

References: 
So, Cyber works for the same people Sabretooth does, and is also a recruiter, like Sabertooth. Hudson, an ancestor of James Hudson, works for and runs a facility(the Hudson Bay Company) for the same people in 1912, taking place at roughly the same period as the FlashBack from last issue. Cyber has been brought here to train Logan. 

Wolverine: Origins #15 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Steve Dillon 
Published: August, 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Cyber(Silas Burr), Daken, Wildchild, Tinkerer, Winter Soldier(James Buchanan Barnes), Mysterious Red Hat Guy-FB. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6: same day as end of last issue 
Daken is tortured for disobeying orders by Wildchild. Elsewhere, Wolverine brings Cyber to the Tinkerer. 
Pg7pn1-FB 
Wolverine as a fur trader. 
Pg7pn2-FB 
A naked Logan, recently shot by James Hudson on his honeymoon with Heather. 
Pg7pn3-FB 
A shot of Wolverine with Alpha Flight. 
Pg7pn4(of 4) 
Cyber tells a story. 
Pg8-pg10-FB: 1912 
Cyber agrees to train Logan, and a woman named Janet will help him. 
Pg11 
Cyber continues his story. 
Pg12-FB 
Hudson orders Cyber to kill Janet, now that Logan has becomes attracted to her. 
Pg13pn1-FB 
Logan, missing an eye, looks at Janets body. 
Pg13pn2-FB 
Recap of X-Men 6-FB, no new information. 
Pg13pn3(of 3)-FB 
Generic Wolverines pissed shot. 
Pg14pn2-pg14pn2, pg14pn4 
Cyber continues his story. 
Pg14pn3-FB 
Cyber sees the Mysterious Red Hat Guy in a car. 
Pg14pn5(of 5)-FB: same day as pg14pn3-FB 
Cyber begins to train Daken. 
Pg15-pg20 
Tinkerer gives Cyber a Carbonadium pacemaker, and Wolverine chucks the fake one into a river. 
Pg21-pg22: a few days later 
Wolverine sends the Winter Soldier a message through the Daily Bugle classifieds section. He goes to a bus station and picks up some adamantium tipped bullets that Wolverine left for him. 

References: 
Wolverine as a fur trader? Is Way referencing M/CP 92-98? That story was supposed to take place in the 1840s but Logan wasnt born until after that according to Origin. I suppose it would be easy enough to ignore the 1840s date. I dont know, maybe Im misinterpreting that panel. Thoughts? 

For the Winter Soldier, hes just sitting around and has time to check a bus station locker, so Id say this goes before Cap dies and he goes on a vengeance streak, placing the current day portion of this arc after Civil War Proper, but before Captain America is assassinated. 

Thankfully, this story looks to be ended, and the next issue starts up a new one. Meaning: a clean continuity break! Finally! Unless, of course, next issue refers to this one as recent. Well see but the next arc promises to have FlashBacks to World War II through to the formation of SHIELD. Fun! 

Some placement suggestions! 

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
 
DD 330 
M/CP 171/4 
M/CP 174/2 
*W: O 12-FB 
SKK 3 
X 35 
NW 50 
 

SABRETOOTH/VICTOR CREED 
*W: O 14-FB 
W3 50 (15-16)-FB 
 

HARDRIVE 
 
W2 95 
W2 96 (1-22) 
*W: O 12-FB 
W2 96 (23-24) 
XM 46 

HURRICANE III 
 
W2 95 
W2 96 (1-22) 
*W: O 12-FB 
W2 96 (23-24) 
W2 99 
W2 100 

CYBER/SILAS BURR (full name added) 
*W: O 14 (15:4-20)-FB 
*W: O 15 (8-10)-FB (1912) 
*W: O 12 (10)-FB 
*W: O 15 (12)-FB 
*W: O 12 (11)-FB 
*W: O 15 (14:3)-FB, (14:5)-FB 
M/CP 85 
M/CP 86 
M/CP 87 
M/CP 88 
M/CP 89 
M/CP 90 
M/CP 91 
M/CP 92 
XF 79 
XF 80 
XF 81 
M/CP 132 
M/CP 133 
M/CP 134 
M/CP 135 
M/CP 136 
W2 79-FB 
W2 79 
W2 80 
W2 81 
*W: O 12 (12)-FB 
W2 93 
W2 94 
W2 95 
W2 96 (1-22) 
*W: O 12 (14:1)-FB 
W2 96 (23:1-23:2)-BTS 
*W: O 12 (14:2)-FB 
W2 96 (23:3-23:4) 
*W: O 12 (14:3-4)-FB 
W2 96 (24)-BTS 
*W: O 12 (15)-FB 
*W: O 11 
*W: O 12 
*W: O 13 
*W: O 14 
*W: O 15 

Wolverine/Logan/James Howlett 
 
O 6 
*W: O 15 (7:1)-FB 
**M/CP 92-98?? 
*W: O 15 (8-10)-FB (1912) 
*W: O 12 (10-11)-FB 
*W: O 15 (13:1)-FB 
W2 113-FB 
W2 126-FB 
W2 5-FB 
L: PW (1-9) 
UX 257-FB 
BLADE3 5-FB 
X: TF 2 (1936) 
X: TF 3 (1936) 
W2 106-FB 
UX 268-FB (08/41) 
W3 32 (05/42) 
IHM: MMH 1-FB (1943) 
W2 34 (8:2-8:3)-FB, (13:3-14)-FB, (21)-FB (06/06/44) 
W2 78-FB (06/06/44) 
W2 103-FB 
W2 169-FB 
W3 40 (2-6)-FB 
L: PW (10-49)-FB 
W3 40 (7-14)-FB 
W3 40 (16-18)-FB 
W3 38 (11-13)-FB 
W3 40 (19:6-20:2)-FB 
W3 38 (14-18)-FB 
W: O 9-FB 
W2 65-FB 
W2 47-FB 
W3 50 (15-16)-FB 
W: O 5 (11)-FB 
W3 50 (17)-FB 
W: O 5 (12:1)-FB 
W3 50 (18:1)-FB 
W: O 5 (12:2-12:3)-FB 
W3 50 (18:2-19)-FB 
W: O 5 (12:4)-FB 
UX 213-FB 
W: O 5 (12:5)-FB 
W: O 5 (9)-FB 
W: O 5 (13-15:1)-FB 
W: O 3 (3-6)-FB 
W: O 3 (12-17)-FB 
W2 61 (12:4-14)-FB 
W: O 2 (5-7)-FB (1968) 
W: O 2 (12-17)-FB (1968) 
W2 68-FB (late 68) 
W2 61 (8)-FB 
W2 9-FB-FB-BTS 
W: O 6-FB 
W: O 7-FB 
X 5 (10:1-10:3)-FB 
W: O 8 (16:1-16:4)-FB 
X 7 (3:2-3:5)-FB 
W: O 8 (17:2-19)-FB 
X 5 (8-19:3)-FB 
W: O 8 (20:3-20:4)-FB 
X 6 (5-6)-FB 
X 7 (6)-FB 
W2 60-FB 
W2 61-FB 
X 6 (14)-FB 
UX 228-FB 
GSX 4-FB 
UTSM -1 
M/CP 72 
 
Weapon X 
 
M/CP 84 (20-24) 
W2 34 (5:3)-FB, (18:4-18:5)-FB, (5:4-5:5)-FB 
AF 33 (14:1-14:2)-FB 
AF 2 -1 (9:4-9:5)-FB 
AF 33 (14:3-14:6)-FB 
*W: O 15 (7:2)-FB 
AF 33 (15-19:4)-FB 
AF 2 -1 (11)-FB 
AF 3/2 
AF2 -1 (12-21)-FB 
AF2 -1 
W2 -1 
FURY 1-FB 
UX 140-FB 
UX 147-FB 
AF 52-FB 
W/C 
W: BR-FB 
W/NF-FB 
BFF: BGL 1 
BFF: BGL 2 
BFF: BGL 3 
L: SS 
AF SPECIAL 
*W: O 15 (7:3)-FB 
AF 127/2-FB 
W2 119-FB 
W2 120-FB 
W2 121-FB 
W2 126-FB 
W '97-FB 
W2 144-FB 
{H2 180} 


Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Jul 08, 2007 5:03 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury said: 
>>>
For the Winter Soldier, hes just sitting around and has time to check a bus station locker, so Id say this goes before Cap dies and he goes on a vengeance streak, placing the current day portion of this arc after Civil War Proper, but before Captain America is assassinated. 
<<<

I'm inclined to agree, and this seems to square with other observations I've made from analyses about this series and BLADE. 

Logan appears in BLADE v3 #5, during the Civil War. In this issue, he says that he "just got back from fifteen rounds with Omega Red." This is probably a reference to WOLVERINE: ORIGINS #10. It appears that BLADE3 5 occurs between ORIGINS 10 and 11. 

The last time prior to BLADE3 5 that Logan and Blade saw each other was in BLADE3 5FB. This CW tie-in flashback, which follows the storyline ending in W3 49, would have been before Logan's 15 rounds with Omega Red. Given the flow of the storyline in ORIGINS, I'd venture to say that BLADE3 5-FB occurs before the start of the entire ORIGINS series. And ORIGINS #1 follows right from pages 22-24 of WOLVERINE v3 #40. 

So it seems that ORIGINS #1-10 occur during Civil War, after Logan's CW story arc in W3 involving Nitro. The earlier story arc ending with W3 40 (1-21) appears to occur before the Civil War. I wonder if W3 40 (22-24) is actually a flash-forward that occurs out of sequence with other issues of W3 (after W3 49)?? 

After BLADE3 5, Logan would appear in ORIGINS 11 through 15 (1-20), which I place at the tail end of the Civil War. I believe the Civil War ends during the several days between pages 20 and 21 of ORIGINS 15, and that puts Winter Soldier at the end of ORIGINS 15 between the close of the war and the death of Cap (for him, between WINTER SOLDIER: WINTER KILLS and CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #25). 

An incomplete sequence of events would look like this: 

W3 45-49 
BLADE3 5-FB 
W3 40 (22-24) 
W:O 1-10 
BLADE3 5 
W:O 11-14 
W:O 15 (1-20) 
CW 7 
W:O 15 (21-22) 
CA5 25 

Am I on the right track?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jul 08, 2007 6:13 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
So it seems that ORIGINS #1-10 occur during Civil War, after Logan's CW story arc in W3 involving Nitro. 
<<<

So, how does this fit with what Paul O called "three straight issues of Wolverine, Nuke and Captain America punching one another in a Vietnamese field."? DURING Civil War? 

I point the Dugan debate from before out for reference as well, since inserting Ant-Man #4-6 [FB], Agents of Atlas #1-3+6, New Avengers #?? and Cap #22 in there may not quite work status-quo wise 

[NB: I haven't read the series, other than glancing at the Jubilee/Dugan "death" issue, I'd just like to get this clear...]

			*	*	*

Jul 08, 2007 7:19 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
The last time prior to BLADE3 5 that Logan and Blade saw each other was in BLADE3 5FB. This CW tie-in flashback, which follows the storyline ending in W3 49, would have been before Logan's 15 rounds with Omega Red.
<<<

Paul, I think you're misreading the issue. Yes, Blade #5 begins with a sequence that occurs "three weeks ago", but that just recaps the scene in W3 #48 where Wolvie escapes the Helicarrier. It doesn't continue on from there. 

The rest of the issue is split into two sections: "Now", which deals with Blade registering and being sent after Wolvie, and "Then", which details their first meeting, battling a vampire that looks like The Yellow Kid. 

I believe that you're under the impression that the "then" portions follow directly from the "three weeks ago" segment at the start -- but they don't. As far as I can tell, they occur decades ago. Note the fashions that the characters are wearing, the old-style automobiles on the street, and the fact the the pages are sepia-toned, giving the impression of an old movie. 

So there's no need to re-juggle our prior placement of Wolverine: Origins #1-10, or re-interpret the last pages of W3 #40 as a flash-forward. The "Then" flashback doesn't occur after W3 #49 -- it occurs decades ago. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jul 09, 2007 12:11 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Right. Above, I have BLADE3 5-FB before X: TF for Wolverine... in the 1930's. 

As for Wolverine: Origins 1-10, Somebody's right. The Captain America appearance has to be before Civil War starts, otherwise the Amercain Government wouldn't have sent Cap after Wolverine... or if they did, he wouldn't have responded. 

Also, W: O 11 is a direct continuation from W: O 10. Wolverine is gutted in 10, and he gets up off the floor and puts his guts back in in 11. The break for Wolverine would be between issues 11 & 12. 

Also, Way has said that SHIELD will lay off Wolverine from this point, so it looks like BLADE3 5 can be our reason for that, since it wasn't really covered in W: O, placing BLADE3 5 between W: O 11 & 12.(or, rather, between pg16 & pg17 of W: O 11. But still between 11 & 12 for Wolverine) 

Also in BLADE3 5, Wolverine asks Maria Hill where his two Atlantean friends are, placing this after(possibly just after) the W3 Civil War tie-in arc. 

W: O 1-11 must occur before Civil War starts, thanks to Cap's appearance. However, that screws with the reference to Omega Red in BLADE3 5.  (I'd still like to keep W3 & W: O 1-11 as close to the start of Civil War as possible, to give Wolverine a decent reason to pause his quest, but I'm not sure if that's possible) 

I think we're looking more at something like this: 

W: O 1-10 
W: O 11 (1-16) 
W3 45-49 
BLADE3 5 
W: O 11 ( 17-22) 
W: O 12-14 
W: O 15 (1-20) 
CW 7 
W: O 15 (21-22) 
CA5 25 

I think we're going to be forced to ignore the Omega Red reference in BLADE3 5. 

Thoughts? Both on the current portion... and M/CP 92-98?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Jul 09, 2007 7:14 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I guess I was misreading the analysis of these issues. (I don't have the actual comics.) Thanks for the clarification, guys.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jul 10, 2007 12:22 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Nah, that's probably my fault. I had completely forgotten about BLADE3 5's current day portion, and I even had notes written down to make mention of it in my analysis. I just... forgot. 

Sorry about that.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Thread 36

Subject: Calendar; Barracuda 1-5

Jul 15, 2007 4:23 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Punisher Presents: Barracuda #1 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Goran Parlov 
Pub: April, 2007 

Appearances: 
Barracuda, Big Chris Angelone, Oswald Angelone, Bobby, Mr. Lockhart, Leopoldo Luna-BTS. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22 
Barracuda is approached by some of Big Chris men, and through a misunderstanding he beats the crap out of them. He later discovers they were sent to give him a job, so he proceeds to Big Chris place. There hes told to take his hemophiliac son Oswald to Santa Morricone, where hell assassinate Leopoldo Luna, to prove that Oswald is capable of taking Big Chris place as a mob boss. Meanwhile, two CIA agents keep tabs on Barracuda. 
Pg21-pg22: next day 
Barracuda & Oswald arrive at the airport. 

References: 
Barracuda is missing his left eye & his fingers on his left hand, he also makes reference to losing them and being left to be eaten by sharks, placing this after the Punisher arc he was introduced in. 

Not that it really matters, becuase I don't see Leopoldo Luna getting a listing here, but he's BTS in this issue because Barracuda called him on the phone but we don't hear his side of the conversation. 

Punisher Presents: Barracuda #2 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Goran Parlov 
Pub: May, 2007 

Appearances: 
Barracuda, Big Chris Angelone, Oswald Angelone, Bobby, Mr. Lockhart, Digby, Leopoldo Luna, Wanda Luna, Father Flannery, Fifty. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4pn3: same day as end of last issue 
Barracuda and Oswald are on the plane, and Barracuda notices an old acquaintance of his, Digby. 
Pg4pn4-FB: some time ago 
Barracuda & Digby in prison 
Pg4pn5(of 6)-pg14: same day as pg4pn3 
DEA, FBI, & CIA agents meet to discuss whats going on with Luna. Meanwhile, Barracuda catches up on old times with Digby. Later, Barracuda meets with Luna, meets his ex-porn star wife Wanda, and their mutual friend Father Flannery. 
Pg15pn1-FB: the mid-80s 
Sergeant-Major Barracuda, Leopoldo Luna, & General CD slaughter opposing forces. 
Pg15pn2(of 2)-pg22 
Luna threatens to kill Big Chris son if Big Chris doesnt call off the hit, and pay him five million as an apology. Big Chris isnt pleased. Meanwhile, Barracuda calls his old friend General Fifty. 

References: 
It seems that Barracuda's prison time is after his time in the military. Meaning, (4:4)-FB follows (15:1)-FB. Aside from 'the mid-'80's', there's no mention of how long ago from 'now' these FlashBacks are. I guess you're free to put them whenever you want, Paul. 

Punisher Presents: Barracuda #3 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Goran Parlov 
Pub: June, 2007 

Appearances: 
Barracuda, Big Chris Angelone, Oswald Angelone, Bobby, Mr. Lockhart, Digby, Leopoldo Luna, Wanda Luna, Father Flannery, Fifty. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: day after last issue 
Barracuda meets Fifty at the airport. Meanwhile, the CIA guys watch Big Chris meet with Santa Morricone officials. Later, Barracuda introduces Fifty to Luna, who doesnt recognize him.(probably because Fifty is now a cross-dresser, and Luna doesnt even recognize that hes a man) That night, Barracuda reveals his plan to overthrow Luna to Wanda & Flannery, and reveals that his old friend Digby will take care of the financials. They agree. Suddenly, Lunas house is attacked by the Santa Morricone military. 

Punisher Presents: Barracuda #4 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Goran Parlov 
Pub: July, 2007 

Appearances: 
Barracuda, Big Chris Angelone, Oswald Angelone, Bobby, Mr. Lockhart, Jonathon Digby, Leopoldo Luna, Wanda Luna, Father Flannery, Fifty. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: day after last issue 
The CIA guys brief the military on the situation in Santa Morricone. Meanwhile, Luna takes Barracuda & Fifty on a helicopter ride which ends in Luna falling out of it, and into a volcano. When they land, Big Chris has returned to Lunas estate with tanks. 

Punisher Presents: Barracuda #5 
W: Garth Ennis 
D: Goran Parlov 
Pub: August, 2007 

Appearances: 
Barracuda, Big Chris Angelone, Oswald Angelone, Bobby, Mr. Lockhart, Jonathon Digby, Wanda Luna, Father Flannery, Fifty. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: same day as last issue 
Big Chris attacks. During the fight, Digby is run over by a tank and is killed. Flannery is knocked out a window and dies. Fifty takes bullets meant for Barracuda and dies. Barracuda, Wanda, & Oswald escape in a helicopter, but Big Chris has managed to tag along. Oswald kills him, and Barracuda accidentally kills Oswald by slapping him on the back. The helicopter eventally runs out of gas, and Barracuda & Wanda are stranded on a lifeboat in the middle of the Pacific. 

References: 
Barracuda was double crossing everyone so he could get enough money to pay for his eventual revenge plan he has for the Punisher. 

All in all, the mini lasts four days. Consecutive.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Jul 15, 2007 9:02 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Col. I'll let you know if I have questions.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jul 15, 2007 7:06 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Reading back through this, I noticed that I left something out.(I purposefully left a lot out... most of the overly vulgar stuff. So if the synopses seem light, well, I left out all the blow jobs and stuff) 

It's sunny & nice in Florida & Santa Morricone. Green grass & leaves on trees in Santa Morricone, but being south of Florida, that's no surprise. 

Up next: Punisher 43-49!

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Thread 37

Subject: Wolverine: Origins Annual 1

Jul 19, 2007 4:22 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine: Origins Annual 1 
W: Daniel Way 
D: Kaare Andrews 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Tai, Seraph-FB, Sabretooth-FB 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Madripoor, now 
Logan meets with Tai, who notices hes not wearing an eyepatch anymore. Logan asks him for some help in finding Seraphs body. 
Pg4-pg10-FB: Madripoor, 1932 
Logan returns to Madripoor to visit Seraph. After he beats the crap out of some sailors, Seraph yells at him for not showing restraint, then asks him what he knows of the Hand. 
Pg11-pg12-FB: some time later, but not much, relatively 
Seraph teaches Logan some class & restraint. 
Pg13-pg21-FB: some time later, but not much, relatively 
Seraph tries to leave Logan for his own good, but he follows her and stumbles across her having an argument with a member of the Hand. After he gets her out of there, she still refuses to reveal a secret shes keeping from him. 
Pg22-FB: some time later 
Sabretooth has killed Seraph. 
Pg23: now 
Tai agrees to help Logan. 
Pg24-pg36: two days later 
Logan goes searching for Tai and finds him digging up Seraphs body. Now discovered that Tai has been working for the mystery group thats been pulling Logans strings for years, he commits suicide. Logan removes Seraphs skeleton from her coffin and discovers the name of the Mystery Red Hat Guy: 
ROMULUS! 

References: 
I can finally stop bitching about the Mystery Red Hat Guy not having a name. Yay! 

This happens between W: O 15 & 16, but not directly, so we finally have a clean continuity break. 

Theres a two-page montage of Wolverine standing over his dead lovers but its more of Wolverine remembering all of them, not really new scenes. 

As it turns out, Seraph worked for Romulus the whole time. So did Tai. Surprise! 

The FlashBacks take place after (a portion of) W2 126, where Logan first meets Seraph, as he already knows her here. Also, W: O @1 places Logans first meeting with Seraph before the first World War. 

Seraph was killed in (a portion of) W2 126-FB, so thats where pg22-FB goes. 

Some placement suggestions! 

SABRETOOTH/VICTOR CREED 
 
L: SS 
*W: O @1-FB 
W2 126-FB-BTS 
X 33-FB 
 

SERAPH 
W2 126 (6:2)-FB 
W2 126 (8)-FB 
*W: O @1 (4-21)-FB 
{UX 268} 
*W: O @1 (22)-FB 
W2 126 (6:4)-FB 

TAI 
 
W2 98 
W2 127 
*W: O @1 

WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT 
W: E 4 (9-13)-FB 
O 1 
O 2 
O 3 
O 4 
O 5 
O 6 
W: O 15 (7:1)-FB 
M/CP 93-FB 
M/CP 94 
M/CP 95 
M/CP 96 
M/CP 97 
M/CP 98-FB 
W: O 15 (8-10)-FB (1912) 
W: O 12 (10-11)-FB 
W: O 15 (13:1)-FB 
W2 113-FB 
W2 126 (8)-FB 
*W: O @1-FB (1932) 
W2 5-FB 
UX 257-FB 
BLADE3 5-FB 
X: TF 2 (1936) 
X: TF 3 (1936) 
L: PW (1-9) 
W2 106-FB 
UX 268-FB (08/41) 
W3 32 (05/42) 
IHM: MMH 1-FB (1943) 
W2 34 (8:2-8:3)-FB, (13:3-14)-FB, (21)-FB (06/06/44) 
W2 78-FB (06/06/44) 
W2 103-FB 
W2 169-FB 
W3 40 (2-6)-FB 
L: PW (10-49)-FB 
W3 40 (7-14)-FB 
W3 40 (16-18)-FB 
W3 38 (11-13)-FB 
W3 40 (19:6-20:2)-FB 
W3 38 (14-18)-FB 
W: O 9-FB 
W2 65-FB 
W2 47-FB 
W3 50 (15-16)-FB 
W: O 5 (11)-FB 
W3 50 (17)-FB 
W: O 5 (12:1)-FB 
W3 50 (18:1)-FB 
W: O 5 (12:2-12:3)-FB 
W3 50 (18:2-19)-FB 
W: O 5 (12:4)-FB 
UX 213-FB 
W: O 5 (12:5)-FB 
W: O 5 (9)-FB 
W: O 5 (13-15:1)-FB 
W: O 3 (3-6)-FB 
W: O 3 (12-17)-FB 
W2 61 (12:4-14)-FB 
W: O 2 (5-7)-FB (1968) 
W: O 2 (12-17)-FB (1968) 
W2 68-FB (late 68) 
W2 61 (8)-FB 
W2 9-FB-FB-BTS 
W: O 6-FB 
W: O 7-FB 
X 5 (10:1-10:3)-FB 
W: O 8 (16:1-16:4)-FB 
X 7 (3:2-3:5)-FB 
W: O 8 (17:2-19)-FB 
X 5 (8-19:3)-FB 
W: O 8 (20:3-20:4)-FB 
X 6 (5-6)-FB 
X 7 (6)-FB 
W2 60-FB 
W2 61-FB 
X 6 (14)-FB 
UX 228-FB 
GSX 4-FB 
UTSM -1 
M/CP 72 
 
Weapon X 
 
M/CP 84 (20-24) 
W2 34 (5:3)-FB, (18:4-18:5)-FB, (5:4-5:5)-FB 
AF 33 (14:1-14:2)-FB 
AF 2 -1 (9:4-9:5)-FB 
AF 33 (14:3-14:6)-FB 
W: O 15 (7:2)-FB 
AF 33 (15-19:4)-FB 
AF 2 -1 (11)-FB 
AF 3/2 
AF2 -1 (12-21)-FB 
AF2 -1 
W2 -1 
FURY 1-FB 
UX 140-FB 
UX 147-FB 
AF 52-FB 
W/C 
W: BR-FB 
W/NF-FB 
BFF: BGL 1 
BFF: BGL 2 
BFF: BGL 3 
L: SS 
AF SPECIAL 
W: O 15 (7:3)-FB 
AF 127/2-FB 
W2 119-FB 
W2 120-FB 
W2 121-FB 
W2 126 (6:3-6:5)-FB 
W '97-FB 
W2 144-FB 
{H2 180} 
 
UX 143 
W '95-FB 
W2 126 (18:3-18:4)-FB 
XCAL 85-FB 
UX 144 
... 

I added some page/panel ranges to W2 126-FB.

Last edited by Col_Fury on Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total. 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Jul 19, 2007 12:30 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Is this the same "Romulus" from Loeb's current run on Wolverine? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jul 19, 2007 5:12 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

...that's a good question. Loeb has said in interviews that he & Way worked some things out for his Wolverine arc, so probably. But I'm behind on reading Wolverine: Loeb, so I couldn't tell you for sure right now. His last issue comes out next week... 

I really need to get caught up on my reading.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Jul 21, 2007 10:20 am 
By jephyork
Director

I'm fairly certain that it's the same guy. Over in Loeb's arc, Romulus was some shadowy guy that was behind-the-scenes during Wolvie's adamantium-insertion procedure. Sounds like the Red Hat Guy from origins to me... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jul 26, 2007 1:24 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Having now read Wolverine 55... yeah. It's the same Romulus. Good catch, Jeph!

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Jul 26, 2007 12:27 pm 
By wolframbane

Romulans!! Of course!! Ever since the Star Trek/X-Men crossover, I knew they were working from behind the scenes. Everything makes sense now... 

Unless... that what they want us to think...

			*	*	*

Jul 27, 2007 10:41 am 
By jephyork
Director

It's the Dominion *posing* as Romulans. 

Sorry, closet Trek geek here. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jul 27, 2007 7:21 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

You know, I'm really hoping that somewhere during the Skrull arc a character returns wearing their old costume, revealing exactly how long they've been missing. Just like Bashir did when he was replaced during the Dominion Wars over in Deep Space Nine. Holy crap did I love it when that happened. 

Yeah, I like Star Trek, too.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Thread 38

Subject: SUB-M 62/2 - SUB-M 66/2

Jul 31, 2007 10:09 pm 
By Dhall

TALES OF ATLANTIS 

SUB-M 62/2 

500 Years after King Kull, 8000 years before Conan, 20000 years back..Tales of Atlantis 

Characters Appearing: 
Emperor Kamuu 
Queen Zartra 
Tsobor 
Ocar 
Zapal 

The continent of Atlantis is attacked by savage Lemurians. Emperor Kamuu manages to fight them off, by unleashing the Serpents Heads, a magma based weapon, which does as much damage to Atlantis itself, as to the Lemurian invaders. 

SUB-M 63/2 

Characters Appearing: 
Emperor Kamuu 
Queen Zartra 
Zapal 
Nolem 

As the city is consumed by magma, Kamuu gives the order for its nobles to return home, and die as they see fit. He spends his last remaining minutes with his queen, but as they embrace, she is stabbed from behind by Nolem of Lemuria. Kamuu fights and kills Nolem. Then he chains himself to his throne to await the end of Atlantis. The city crumbles and sinks into the sea. 

SUB-M 64/2 
Characters Appearing: 

TANAS 
STEGOR 
ELANNA 
ORREK 
RENNAR 
KAMUU II 

5,000 years after the Great Cataclysm: 
In the ruins of undersea Atlantis, two great kings fight to rule the territory. Stegor kills Tanas, but his widow seeks revenge. Elanna rallies her troops, and kills Stegor. Stegors brother, Orrek plots to take over Stegors kingdom, and sends Stegors son Kamuu, on a scouting mission. 

SUB-M 65/2 
Characters Appearing: 

KAMUU II 
SHABARR 

On his scouting mission into the ruins of Atlantis, Kamuu encounters and fights Shabarr, an undead temple guardian. He fights, but his sword is broken, and he flees to the throne room. 

SUB-M 66/2 
Characters Appearing: 
KAMUU II 
SHABARR 
KAMUU 
ZARTRA 
ZARTRA II 

Kamuu II grabs a magic sword, and the creature Shabarr bows to him. Then Kamuu and Zartra appear to show the prince a vision of what to do to make Atlantis mighty again. He goes out of the city, and meets up with Zartra II, the daughter of Queen Elanna. They decide to hook up. 


*ELANNA 
SUB-M 64/2 

*KAMUU 
SUB-M 62/2 
SUB-M 63/2 
SUB-M 66/2 

*KAMUU II 
SUB-M 64/2 
SUB-M 65/2 
SUB-M 66/2 

*NOLEM 
SUB-M 63/2 

*OCAR 
SUB-M 62/2 

*ORREK 
SUB-M 64/2 

*RENNAR 
SUB-M 64/2 

* SHABARR 
SUB-M 65/2 
SUB-M 66/2 

*STEGOR 
SUB-M 64/2 

*TANAS 
SUB-M 64/2 

*TSOBOR 
SUB-M 62/2 

*ZAPAL 
SUB-M 62/2 
SUB-M 63/2 

*ZARTRA 
SUB-M 62/2 
SUB-M 63/2 
SUB-M 66/2 

*ZARTRA II 
SUB-M 66/2

			*	*	*

Thread 39

Subject: Second Vietnam War in the MU

29 Mar 2007 06:54 pm 
By wolframbane

The official take by Marvel regarding events of the comics which were published during the late 60s/early 70s which involved the Vietnam War seems to be that they never actually occurred during the historical Vietnam War, but rather during an unspecified conflict in southeast Asia. The recent OHOTMU books seem to confirm this (particularly the Punisher entry). Even some events from the Korean War in the early 50s (such as Professor X's involvement) seemed to be retconned to later dates. 

Some specific long-lived characters were involved in the historial Vietnam War such as Nick Fury and Logan (and maybe the 'Nam series) did occur in the 60s/70s. 

I wanted to construct a timeline of events for the Vietnam (and possibly Korean) conflicts fought in the MU. I would appreciate any chronological references that anyone has come across. 

The Punisher was involved in Vietnam for four years (OHOTMU:M/K). He was married after his first year, his daughter was born the following year, and his family was killed 7 years after that, which was sometime before he first appeared in ASM 129. 

Thunderbird served 2 tours of duty in Vietnam, sometime before he joined the X-Men in GSX 1. 

Forge was offered the chance to join SHIELD after his first tour of duty in Vietnam in UX 227, 262-263. 

Charles Xavier served three years in Korea in UX 161. He also served with Cain Marko. 

Flash Thompson was in Vietnam in ASM 108.

			*	*	*

29 Mar 2007 06:58 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Iron Man's origin as well [although that's been retconned all to hell, with something like five or six partially or wholly contradictory versions over and above straight time-and-location-updating, which currently has it in the Middle East.]

			*	*	*

29 Mar 2007 08:19 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Sgt. Fury Annual 1 takes place during the Korean War. Annual 3 is a then current day story where the Howlers reunite for a mission in Vietnam... but that would be the 'other' conflict now. The same would go for Flash Thompson, since they were all then current day stories. 

Joe Q has said he considers the Punisher to have served in the real Vietnam, and gave his personal fanfiction rational at Chicagocon last year. 

Who knows what's going on with Tony's origin these days...

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

30 Mar 2007 12:29 pm 
By Andy Holcombe

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
The Punisher was involved in Vietnam for four years (OHOTMU:M/K). He was married after his first year, his daughter was born the following year, and his family was killed 7 years after that, which was sometime before he first appeared in ASM 129.
<<<

There's no way Frank was in Vietnam (or whereever) for only 4 years. He rose from private to sergeant as Castiglione. Then reinlisted as Castle and rose from private to Captain, while serving stateside stint as a recruiter as a lieutenant. I'm going from memory here, but I believe this is the breakdown: 

2nd 'Nam Arc (67-69) he's going by Castiglione 
1st 'Nam Arc (52-53) he's going by Castle (rank of sergeant, I believe) 
The Punisher Invades the 'Nam: Final Invasion we see the transition from Castiglione to Castle, plus more fun later 
Punisher War Journal #4 - Lieutenant Castle 
Punshier Born - Captain Castle 
Origin of Microchip - Lieutenant (I think) Castle as a recruiter 

As I said, I'm going by memory here so please double check my work.

			*	*	*

30 Mar 2007 06:57 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

This sounds like a job for JLH! One he did already, actually. His big breakdown of Castle's pre-Punisher history is in the archives, January 2005.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

31 Mar 2007 12:08 am 
By JLH

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
This sounds like a job for JLH! One he did already, actually. His big breakdown of Castle's pre-Punisher history is in the archives, January 2005.
<<<

It looks right to me. All I know is the handbook got it seriously wrong, trying to consolidate his time there in an effort to try to keep up with Marvel Time. Or, even worse, trying to make Ennis' often uncredible remarks in-story out to be fact (he can't get Frank's daughter's name right, nor remember Micro's death was more total than any other character I can think of. When he has Frank saying he spent "four years", he means it less literally, merely "as Castle", in case someone important asks and he doesn't want to slip and say how many he REALLY did...

			*	*	*

31 Mar 2007 09:13 pm 
By Enda80

In Punisher Armory#2, Castle recalls two friends from 
the army, Chilly Willis and Rocky Rockwitz, even 
showing photos of them and relating an incident with 
them. Did they ever appear elsewhere? 

JLH's notes 

PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE" 
PUN3 18-FB (page 7, panels 6-7; as a young child) [NOTE: Not PUN3 1-FB 
as currently listed] 
**PUN4 1 FB (page 16, panel 2; pre-teens or so, playing baseball) 
PWJ 18-FB (as a pre-teen or so, swimming) 
PUN: INTRUDER-FB (his decision to leave priesthood and join the 
Marines) 
PUN: INTRUDER-FB (early Marines, using jet simulator) 
**[NAM 67, 68, 69 all told in FB] (Frank's 3rd day in country, as 
Castiglione, through last day of first tour, 1 year and 1 month later) 
**PHS 2-FB (as Second Lieutenant. Could be as Castiglione or Castle, 
but since it seems to be his first Christmas in 'nam, it's likely the 
former) 
PUNISHER: BLOODLINES-FB (with his first love, pre-Maria, in Nam) 
**PUN4 1-FB (page 8, panel 2; in War, could be anytime) 
PUN2 59-FB (Maria is pregnant, sees Frank off; could be anytime, but 
most likely here) 
**PUN3 18-FB (page 7; panel 2; in War, could be anytime) 
**[NAM 84, pages 1-11, panel 1] end of third tour, as Sergeant 
Castiglione; supposedly has both children already, but they aren't 
shown; changes name to Castle and rejoins the Marines, though it takes 
a "year and a half" to get back into the bush 
**PUN4 1 FB (page 16, panel 3; as Castle, gets military uniform at 
basic; between panels 1 & 2 of page 11 of NAM 84) 
**[NAM 84, page 11, panels 2-4] in boot camp as Castle 
**[P:MICRO 1] (pages 1-3; boot camp as Castle, in-between panels 4 & 5 
of page 11 of NAM 84) 
**[NAM 84, page 11, panels 5 & 6] as Castle gets his Green Beret and 
graduates from boot camp 
PUN: RETURN TO BIG NOTHING-FB (as Castle, between basic & war) 
**[P:MICRO 1] (pages 9-13; 2nd day in first tour as Castle;) 
PUN: RETURN TO BIG NOTHING-FB (as Castle, early on in war, wife has a 
baby on the way) 
**[P:MICRO 1] (pages 19-21 on a month recruitment drive in states) 
**PUN2 77-FB (during top-sniper days in Corps, which was near 'Nam 
52-53) 
NAM 52 (as Sergeant Castle) 
NAM 53 
**[NAM 84, pages 12+ and PUNISHER INVADES THE NAM, both told in FB] 
Frank's "fourth tour in Nam", first as Castle; Special Forces Sergeant. 
Nixon is president 
ASM 175-FB (as Sergeant, could be anytime in Nam; Hitman saves his 
life) 
**PWZ 20-FB (in Cambodia with a "Military Assistance Command, Vietnam" 
"Studies and Observations Group". Not inexperienced, but 
not as take-charge) 
**PWZ 21-FB (continued. Mostly likely during his "Castle" era, since 
D.X. is able to look him up as Castle later) 
**PBSS 3-FB (Laos, 5th group Civilian Indigenous Defense Group. "many 
tours in Southeast Asia" at that point) 
**PWJ 4-FB (as Lieutenant Castle) 
**PUN4 3-FB (page 8, panel 4; as Castle, anytime in war, but most 
likely close to BORN due to this being the genesis of Olivier's 
interest in him) 
**BORN 1 (as Captain; final days, daughter is four, son is on the way, 
supposedly his "third tour", presumably as Castle) 
**BORN 2 
**BORN 3 
**BORN 4 pages 1-18 
PUN@ 4-FB (page 3, panel 1; as Captain Castle, gets distinguished 
service cross) 
**BORN 4 Pages 19-21 (returning home for good, at airport with Maria 
and two kids) 
PUN@ 4-FB (page 3, panels 2-4; panel 4 implies he was in the waiting 
room for the birth of one of his children. I should note, in some 
stories, Frank Jr is older than Christie) 
**PUN4 1 FB (page 8, panel 3; with wife & two kids) 
**PWZ 21-FB (after war, at home with family, on Halloween.) 
**[P:MICRO 1] (page 23; working at security firm and as bodyguard) 
**PUN4 1 FB (page 15, panels 3-4; post-War, pre-Pun) 
**PWZ 24-FB (after war, with daughter, hides birthday present for wife) 

**PWZ 24-FB (days later, burst appendix, after her birthday, son, wife, 
daughter at hospital) 
PUN@ 4-FB (page 3, panel 6; gets call which sets in motion trip to 
park) 
PUN: RETURN TO BIG NOTHING-FB (night before the park) 
M/PRV 2-FB (the park day, death of the family) 
PUN:YO 1 (immediately after the family's death, and onward) 
PUN:YO 2 
M/SA 1-FB 
PUN:YO 2 
PUN:YO 3 
PUN:YO 4 
M/SA 1-FB 
**PUN4 4-FB (page 5; kills Frank Costa, despite that according to M/SA 
1 someone killed him before Punny could get to him) 
M/PRV 2 
[...] 
SMMM 
**PUN4 4-FB (page 9; is convinced to kill self by demons) 
**PUN4 3-FB (pages 14-17; Frank kills himself, comes back 
angel-powered) 
**PUN4 1 
**PUN4 2 
**PUN4 3 
**PUN4 4 
W/P 1 
W/P 2 
W/P 3

			*	*	*

31 Mar 2007 09:18 pm 
By Enda80

Shotgun was said to have served with Castle. 

Other "Nam" related characters include 
Thunderbird, Red Wolf, Forge, Jim Rhodes, the Green Liberation Front, Devil-Slayer, Warhawk, Typeface. The Half-Fulls, I suppose, they were in the war long enough ago to have, after getting out, become the fathers of various teenagers/20-somethings such as Night Thrasher and Silhouette, so their hitches couldn't have coincided with Castle's (unless of course it says so in his New Warriors appearance, I'll have to check, in which case...sigh)), but as far as I know none of them have ever been said to have served with Castle (it'd be interesting to get them all together in one story, though), so that might be going too far afield; anyway, I'll probably need every word allowable just to cover all of this. 
---Ronald Byrd 


Jim Rhodes, Red Wolf, and Willie Lincoln all figured in the origin of the Bengal.

			*	*	*

03 Apr 2007 12:53 pm 
By wolframbane

Paul B. was kind enough sent me the M/CAL breakdown of Flash Thompson's activites during Vietnam. 

ASM 82 [3.70]. Flash Thompson's farewell party. 
October, Year 5 

ASM 83 [4.70]. Flash leaves for Vietnam. 
October, Year 5 

ASM 108-109 [5-6.72] FB. Flash finds Hidden Temple and meets Sha Shan ('several months' before ASM 108). 
Spring to Summer (span of time), Year 6 

ASM 105 [2.72]. Just returns from final military mission overseas, soon to be discharged. 
Summer, Year 6 

ASM 108-109 [5-6.72]. Spidey and Dr. Strange save Flash from Monks of the Hidden Temple. 
November, Year 6 

So we know the known the Second Vietnam War covers at least Yrs 5-6. 

After I do a bit more research on the the Punisher and others, I can add a bit more to the timeline.

			*	*	*

03 Apr 2007 12:58 pm 
By wolframbane

The main basis of my 'Second Korean War' timeline is based upon my analysis of Charles Xavier's tour of duty. While issues like XCAL3 14 seem to imply the location was Vietnam, the 'Eighth Day' storyline definitey hammers down the fact that it was in Korea, where the Temple of Cyttorak is located. I considered retaining the idea of Charles actually fighting during the original Korean War in the 50s, but this would unduly make too many characters related to his early life far too old than curently presented. 

Here are some of the criteria I used for developing my 'Second Korean War' timeline. 
1/ Charles enlisted in the US Army immediately after graduation from Oxford, likely in May, and returning to the US from UX 117. 
2/ Charles undertook Officer Candidate School (OCS) from XCAL3 14, which normally takes 9 weeks of basic training and 14 weeks of OCS training. 
3/ Charles served in the US Army for 3 years from UX 117, which is about three tours of duty (36 months). 
4/ Charles joins the Combat Search and Rescue (CSAR) teams early in his military career after becoming bothered by killing from UX 389. 
5/ Served with Cain probalby early in military career as they were both still soldiers in UX 12. 
6/ Charles inherits the Xavier Estate, which was in trust until he was age of majority (21 in New York) from UX 12. 
7/ Charles goes on leave with Moira in UX 389, likely before she conciled with Joe MacTaggart from UX 127, itself 10 years before she told Joe about their son (YEAR 10). 
8/ Charles is injured and meets Daniel Shomron at a MASH hospital from UX 161. He also recieved the 'Dear John' letter from Moira at the MASH from UX 117, one month before his discharge from UX 389. 
9/ Charles briefly reenlisted a fourth time before being injured on his first mision and being discharged from XCAL3 14. 
10/ Charles, Logan and Carmen Pryde worked together on CSAR missions from XCAL3 14. 
11/ Charles wandered for a period after his discharge from UX 117, before arriving at Egypt (UX 117), which was shortly before his arrival in Israel (UX 161) in spring 20 years before the issue (YEAR 11). 

SECOND KOREAN WAR 
May, YEAR -13. Charles graduates Oxford and returns to the US with Moira. He enlists in the US Army and leaves for OCS training. Mora retuns to Oxford. 
November, YEAR -13. Charles completes his OCS training and enters the Second Korean War. 
YEAR -13. Charles is stationed in Seoul, and is part of the same unit as Cain Marko. Cain is his stepbrother and a former mercenary who worked with Black Tom Cassidy. After Cain becoms jeggernaut and is buried under the temple, Charles joins the CSAR teams. 
June, YEAR -12. Charles turns 21 and inherits the Xavier fortune. 
YEAR -10. Charles and Moira are on leave together. 
October, YEAR -10. Charles is part of a CSAR group including Carmen Pryde and Logan (sometime after having worked with Richard and Mary Parker in YEAR -15, this could be part of his activities for Department K). Charles is injured and meets Shomron at a MASH. He gets a letter from Moira breaking up with him. 
November, YEAR -10. Charles reenlists for a fourth tour of duty, but is shot down, injured and discharged. Carmen is also discharged and soon marries Theresa, eventually becoming parents to Kitty Pryde. Logan soon works with Sean Cassidy in Calgary. Charles heads to Scotland to see Moira, is turned away, and bums around Europe, eventually finding peace on Kirinos. 
Spring, YEAR -9. Charles travels through Egypt and Israel.

			*	*	*

03 Apr 2007 01:14 pm 
By Somebody
Director

New Excalibur #14-15 also kept the Cytorrak temple in Korea.

			*	*	*

08 Apr 2007 03:52 pm 
By Enda80

Castle's tangled chronology is so delineated 

Castle leaves the seminary, disagreeing with the Church's teaching that there could be no forgiveness without punishment (Castle apparently never having heard of the concepts of Purgatory or Hell.) Ref Intruder GN. 

Castle slays Sgt. Mikuta (ref 'Nam#67-69) 

Castle meets Cleve Gorman (ref Big Nothing GN) 

Castle versus the Monkey (ref 'Nam#52-53) 

Castle saved by Kenyon (ref ASM#175?) 

Note; a soldier named Kenyon appears in a fb in Big Nothing where they evacuate the offices of the Fisk company (connected to Wilson Fisk?) 

Second tour of duty; 
Castle meets Rich Von Burian (PWJ#18) 

Special Forces: 
meets De Sade, the Spook and Ice Phillips 

Third Tour; 

Born occurs (Garth Ennis series) 

Fourth Tour 

Faces Death Doctor (ref Final Invasion) 

Pretty good. Oh, by the way, this entry also includes a list of people Castle met during his military time that was based on a sentence in my entry for Ice Phillips. 


Others who would have fought in the conflict that Ice Phillips and Castle participated in would include the Sniper (von Burian), Walter Chin, Lee Inoguchi, Al Levin, Dr. William Pope, Barry "Red" Thorne, Colonel Ray Schoonover, Quincy Jefferson and Angela Wynoski (from Punisher: Bloodlines), the Hitman, Cleve Gorman, the Mechanic, Mike Hauley, the Hitman (Burt Kenyon), Joe Rainey, Chris Hoyle, Bruce Ayers, John Carmody (from What If II#10; although a What If story, one can count this, since What If Worlds resemble Earth-616 exactly before the point of divergence, and Carmody's wartime encounters with Castle fall in a timeframe before the point of divergence), Joe Perrett, Roger Wong, and ANZAC Spider Roque. 

I think I hit everybody except for D.X. and Shotgun. Anyone else introduced as an "old army buddy"? Where did D.X. appear?

			*	*	*

08 Apr 2007 10:06 pm 
By JLH

Nowhere in the "Final Invasion" is there even the slightest bit of information to support claiming it was FRANK'S final mission in Nam. The title was a reference to it being the last Nam story, not to it being the story of Frank's last mission in Vietnam. "Born", not only in rank of Frank but in ACTUAL STORY ACTIONS, places itself as his final mission. Flipping them means you don't care about the chronology of the stories and just blindly throw darts to decide on placement. 

See why I hate the Handbooks' coverage of it?

			*	*	*

08 Apr 2007 11:41 pm 
By wolframbane

Does anyone know which issue depicts the gravestones of Frank Castle's family with the dates of their deaths? And if so, what dates are shown? I am curious if they match up with other dates. 

The first appearance of Frank Castle is ASM 129, which takes place in December, Yr 7. His family was killed 6 months before this, indicating this occured in June, Yr 7. 

Additionally, the Castles were killed just days before Frank was supposed to have received the Presidential Medal of Freedom. This prestigious award is normally given on July 4.

			*	*	*

08 Apr 2007 11:50 pm 
By Col_Fury

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
The first appearance of Frank Castle is ASM 129, which takes place in December, Yr 7. His family was killed 6 months before this, indicating this occured in June, Yr 7. 
<<<

I could be wrong, but I think that, thanks to the sliding time-scale, and an attempt to keep Franks' origin tied to the historical Vietnam, that his family in no longer to have died 'six months' before ASM 129. 

...I could be wrong, though. 


wolframbane wrote:
>>>
Does anyone know which issue depicts the gravestones of Frank Castle's family with the dates of their deaths? And if so, what dates are shown?
<<<

I can't think of any off the top of my head. Sorry. 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

09 Apr 2007 12:29 am 
By wolframbane

Here is my analysis of Thunderbird (John Proudstar) during the Second Vietnam War. 

1/ John was discharged from the USMC sometime before he joined the X-Men in late May, Yr 8. (GSX 1) 
2/ John enlisted underage, so he was no older than 17. (CX 3/2) 
3/ John served for 2 year in the USMC, so for 2 tours of duty or 26 months. (XFOR -1) 
4/ After his discharge from the Marines, he and his brother James clashed with Dr. Martynec at the Arroyo Clinic, James was age 13. (XFOR -1) 
5/ Assumption he got out of USMC shortly before joining X-Men, and military training was 22 weeks (13 weeks basic, 9 months recruit training) 

YEAR -12. John Proudstar is born. 
YEAR -5. James Proudstar is born. 
August, YEAR 5. John (age 17) joins USMC and undergoes military training. 
February, YEAR 6. John shipped off to Vietnam. He has a vision of the mythical thunderbird over Guantanamo Bay. 
April, YEAR 8. John discharged from USMC. He and James (age 13) clash with Dr. Martynec. 
Late May, YEAR 8. John becomes Thunderbird and joins X-Men.

			*	*	*

09 Apr 2007 03:44 pm 
By Paul O'Brien
Director

The Punisher is an unusual case - he's somehow drifted loose of the normal sliding timeline and remained moored in the real Vietnam War, which means that he's getting retroactively older in his earlier appearances. 

Generally, though, I rather like the idea that the Marvel Universe has at least some sort of extra regional conflict to account for the Vietnam-era stories that refer to the conflict directly. It's the sort of fudge that allows us to keep most of those stories relatively intact. (Although I have my doubts that Flash Thompson can still have been drafted into the army - I prefer to think that, for modern continuity purposes, he signed up voluntarily. I think it drags the MU too far from the real world to have had a full-scale draft in recent years, when the real USA hasn't had one in a quarter of a century.)

-- Paul O'Brien

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09 Apr 2007 09:14 pm 
By Enda80

Did Peter Parker appear in the Year One mini-series? Worse, wasn't there a recent fb with Captain America giving a demonstration to a platoon in War Journal#3? That fb would really gum up the works of making it the actual Vietnam war, unless you want to introduce yet another Captain America imposter. 

Oh well, don't learn your history lessons from Don Pendleton........... 

Oh, fun bit of trivia; the first fictional private eye to be a Vietnam veteran (according to Max Allan Collins) was.......?

			*	*	*

09 Apr 2007 10:07 pm 
By Somebody
Director

The comic itself said that the "Cap" in P:WJ-FB was "yet another Captain America imposter."

			*	*	*

09 Apr 2007 11:18 pm 
By JLH

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Oh, fun bit of trivia; the first fictional private eye to be a Vietnam veteran (according to Max Allan Collins) was.......?
<<<

Sherlock Holmes?

			*	*	*

10 Apr 2007 12:25 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul O'Brien wrote:
>>>
The Punisher is an unusual case - he's somehow drifted loose of the normal sliding timeline and remained moored in the real Vietnam War, which means that he's getting retroactively older in his earlier appearances. 
<<<

And I think that's great. For what the Punisher has grown into, Vietnam is part of the character.(as originally presented, not so much. He was hired by the Jackal to kill Spider-Man! Ehh..) By replacing Vietnam with some other conflict, it would make the character less interesting for me. Now how much that matters in the grand scheme of things, who knows. 

And, 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
The comic itself said that the "Cap" in P:WJ-FB was "yet another Captain America imposter."
<<<

Exactly.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

10 Apr 2007 05:53 am 
By Enda80

JLH wrote:
>>>
Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Oh, fun bit of trivia; the first fictional private eye to be a Vietnam veteran (according to Max Allan Collins) was.......?
<<<

Sherlock Holmes?
<<<

Sarge Steel

			*	*	*

10 Apr 2007 11:01 am 
By jephyork
Director

No, I'm pretty sure it was Sherlock Holmes. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

10 Apr 2007 09:10 pm 
By Enda80
Director

Watson (not Holmes) fought in Afghanistan, which I suppose could make him amongst the first fictional sidekicks to a sleuth who was a Veteran of Afhganstian.

			*	*	*

10 Apr 2007 09:59 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Fascinating. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

18 Jul 2007 12:56 pm 
By wolframbane

With thanks to Paul B and Col_Fury, I have done some alterations to my Second Vietnam War timeline. Given some recent implications of Punisher Max and Born, I have tentatively placed Punisher in the 'historic' Vietnam War (such as a birthdate of 1950 and fighting in 1971), as also Punisher affiliated characters (like Ice Philips and Hitman). So I have removed all direct Punisher references from the timeline. Wolverine also fought in Vietnam before joining Department K in the early 1970s (OHOTMU:Wolverine '04 and Wolverine) and while brainwashed in 1968 w/ Nuke (Wolverine Origins). 

Below is my complete timeline fully incorporating my revisions for Iron Man, Thunderbird, Flash Thompson, Nick Fury and the Howling Commandos. I am still conducting research for other characters for my timeline including Bullseye, Forge, Red Wolf, Arclight, Green Liberation Front, Devil-Slayer, Warhawk, Thunderbolt Ross, Typeface, The Half-Fulls, Night Thrasher, Silhouette, Karma, Water Wizard/Aqueduct, Swordsman, Madison Jefferies, Scramble, Nguyen Ngoc Coy, Wong Chu, War (Kieros), Libra, Guardin, Mantis, Roy Dennefer, William Stryker, USAgent, Right Winger, Ammo, Cardinal, Andrew Chord and Willie Lincoln. 

Among my major revisions are the years during which the 2VW was fought. The earliest reference is when Jim Rhodes' helicopter was shot down in Vietnam just before he was rescued by Iron Man (Spring, Yr 2). The latest reference was Flash Thompson returned from Vietnam (Summer, Yr 6). Thus the war began as late as Yr 2 but as early as Yr 6. 

YEAR 2 
Spring. Tony Stark makes Iron Man armor and escapes Wong Chu, rescues James Rhodes. TOS 39/1, IM 144 

YEAR 3 
Autumn. John Proudtsar joins USMC underaged. CX 3/2, XFOR -1 

YEAR 4 
Spring. John Proudstar leaves for Vietnam, has vision of thunderbird over Guantanamo Bay. CX 3/2, XFOR -1 

YEAR 5 
Late January or early February. Nick Fury leads the Howling Commandos on a special mission to Vietnam. SGTF @ 3 
October. Flash Thompson leaves for Vietnam. ASM 82-83 

YEAR 6 
Spring to Summer. Flash Thompson finds Hidden Temple and meets Sha Shan. ASM 108-109 
Summer. Flash Thompson returns from overseas and is soon to be discharged. ASM 105 [2.72] 
Summer. John Proudstar returns from Vietnam after two tours of duty. CX 3/2, XFOR -1

Last edited by wolframbane on 31 Jul 2007 09:04 am, edited 3 times in total. 

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22 Jul 2007 11:51 pm 
By wolframbane

Would anyone happen to have a copy of the 198 Files? While doing research for the 'Second Vietnam War', I heard that the Marauder named Arclight (Philipa Sontag) as having been a Vietnam veteran. I have looked through all my material on her and cannot find this. Would anyone know if it under her listing in the 198 Files?

			*	*	*

23 Jul 2007 12:48 am 
By SeanCurtin

It's not mentioned in the 198 Files.
