	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Familiar Faces in Mephisto's Hell in Thor#205
2. Golden Age
3. Placement of X-Men: First Class
4. Venus and Namorita
5. m/tu@ 1
6. Mephisto and Diablo in Fantastic Force#18 fb
7. New feature for the chronologies
8. DAMCON 1
9. Earth A doubles from She-Hulk 21
10. The Stoneridge incident
11. Captain America: The Chosen
12. ASM 304
13. Spider-Man FCBD 2007
14. Westerns
15. One More Day and World War Hulk

	Alternate Universe/Timelines Forum
16. 2099 Odds and Ends

	Issue Analysis Forum
17. Moon Knight 1-6
18. Elektra: Glimpse & Echo 1-4
19. Sentinel v2
20. Two-Gun Kid: The Sunset Riders 1 & 2
21. NYX 5-7
22. Origin 3-6
23. Doom: the Emperor Returns 1-3
24. Hulk: Nightmerica 1-6
25. Marville 1-7
26. Namor v2 1-12
27. Fantastic Four:the Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! 1&2
28. Muties 1-6
29. Spider-Mans Tangled Web 22
30. Closing the Gap Update
31. Wolverine/Captain America 1-4
32. The 50's Revival: Sub-Mariner (and Namora)
33. Spider-Man & Wolverine 1-4
34. Rawhide Kid v3 1-5
35. MSH 16/2 and some other Torch stuff
36. Spider-Man Family vol. 2 #3 & 4
37. Blaze of Glory #1-4
38. September call for analyses
39. Nova: the Human Rocket 1-7
40. Amazing Spider-Girl #9-12
41. Wolverine: Origins 17
42. Union Jack 1-3
43. Fantastic Five v2 #1-5
44. Doom 2099 #40-43, #25
45. Tomb of Dracula (Vol 3/Epic) #1-4
46. Calendar; Punisher MAX Annual 1

	Chat Forum
47. Ooops...we've done it again






Thread 1

Subject: Familiar Faces in Mephisto's Hell in Thor#205

Aug 28, 2007 10:16 pm 
By Enda80

Has anyone taken a stab at identifying those souls in Thor#205? Of course, since some of these fellows already have complicated afterlives (e.g. Jack the Ripper), quite a burden exists.

			*	*	*

Aug 28, 2007 11:24 pm 
By jannepie

What about the souls seen in Thunderbolts 2000 Annual? 

I could recognize the Crusader, the original Thunderbird and a Captain America, but who was that western hero?

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Aug 29, 2007 1:32 am 
By JLH

That was Two-Gun Kid.

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Aug 30, 2007 5:30 pm 
By Enda80

http://www.comicboards.com/thor/view.ph ... 0830222531 

Okay, some scans from Thor I#205. Ghenghis Khan, Jack the Ripper, Blackbeard, a viking (could be Wiliam the Conqueror, Eric the Red, Leif Ericson) and Tamerlane (with spear) seem to be among the souls. 

Ghenghis Kan: lower right corner 
Blackbeard 
Attila the Hun: just above the battleaxe held by the viking 
Viking: perhaps Harald Hadradi? 
Jack the Ripper: in hat 
Torquemada: probably the robed figure 
Tamerlane: Man with spear perhaps 
Figure bending whip: either the Marquis de Sade or somebody from the Hellfire Club. Since this issue came out before Claremont introduced his version of the Hellfire Club, I am guessing this was probably supposed to represent Sir Francis Dashwood, and not Sir Patrick Clemens. 

The horror handbook confirmed that the original Jack the Ripper, Tom Malverne, descended to Hell after the vampires slew him (without vampirizing him). Therefore: 

JACK THE RIPPER/TOM MALVERNE 
ADVENTURES INTO TERROR 29 
DRSTR3 23/2-FB 
T 372-FB 
JIM2 2-FB 
E @1 
ALL-SELECT COMICS 7 
ADVENTURES INTO TERROR 29 
T 205 

Jim 2 2-FB has fbs to the original Jack the Ripper writing letters to taunt the police ("Yours truly, Jack the Ripper").

			*	*	*

Sep 01, 2007 6:34 am 
By jannepie

JLH wrote:
>>>
That was Two-Gun Kid.
<<<

Really? Thanks! 

			*	*	*

Thread 2

Subject: Golden Age

Aug 30, 2007 9:34 pm 
By Dhall

There's a lot of Golden Age comics that are either 
a) not yet in the MCP 
or 
b) partially listed (some stories are listed, and not others in the same book.) 
An example of this is Marvel Mystery Comics 1-10 (The Human Torch, Sub-Mariner, and some of the Angel stories are listed, I'm sure that not everything else is.) 

To keep this simple, I suggest that we start adding everything from the Golden Age to the checklist, and then if a particular book, is completely indexed, it can be removed. 

Marvel Mystery Comics 1-92 (are there any issues where all of the stories are in the project?) 

Human Torch v1 1-38 
Sub-Mariner 1-42 
Captain America 1-78 (again some of the Cap stories are listed, is every story in the books listed?) 
All Select 1-11 
All Winners 1-18 
All Winners v2 #1 
Black Knight v1 (not all stories are listed) 
Blonde Phantom 12-22 
Comedy Comics 9-11 
Daring Mystery Comics 1-8 
Daring Comics 9-12 
Men's Adventures 27-28 
Sun Girl 1-3 
USA Comics 1-17 
Young Allies 1-20 
Young Men 24-28 

I'm sure there are lots more as well.....

			*	*	*

Aug 30, 2007 9:44 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Isn't the rule on GA stories that they're only added if they - or at least the characters starring in them - have been shown or referenced in a post-FF 1 comic? 

Even with some of the revivals in recent years up to and including JMS' The Twelve, I'm sure that's not everyone yet...

			*	*	*

Aug 30, 2007 10:03 pm 
By Dhall

The Appendix to the 2004 Golden Age Handbook lists a LOT of characters, who I'm sure haven't made any modern era appearances, or have probably not been otherwise referenced. I would assume that this counts as a reference. 

Also, what if a character who has not appeared post-FF1/not referenced appears in a GA story with a character who has.... 

			*	*	*

Aug 30, 2007 10:22 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I think the standing rule is, the Golden Age comics are 616 canon unless they've been invalidated by (1) being thoroughly contradicted by a Silver or Modern Age comic, or (2) sheer stupidity (see "the Human Torch flies to Venus under his own power" as an example). 

The 50's monster comics have the same rule too, now. 

-Jeph!

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Aug 30, 2007 11:00 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
see "the Human Torch flies to Venus under his own power" as an example 
<<<

I'm not even sure that one is a problem, unless you take it literally as written. 

I have no problem believing that the Human Torch flies into space 
and goes somewhere, does something, and comes back. 

If you take it literally, okay then it's a bit stupid yes. BUT, can we not find some post-FF 1 stories that are just as stupid? I can't see how that would invalidate a story.

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Aug 30, 2007 11:38 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

And I though the rule was a combination of what Somebody and Jeph posted: we don't bother adding them, but they're canon unless proven otherwise by a post-FF1 story... 

Can anybody provide a list of Golden Age comics that HAVE been added to the MCP, (if any)?

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Aug 30, 2007 11:39 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
Marvel Mystery Comics 1-92 (are there any issues where all of the stories are in the project?)
<<<

Woof. I don't think any of the Marvel Mystery Comics are completely in the Project yet. As far as I can tell, the Human Torch & Namor stories are mostly in, but the Kazar stories, the Angel stories, and the robot stories aren't. 

A while back I said I'd eventually get to those, and I still plan to, one of these days...

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 31, 2007 4:05 pm 
By dimadick

A whole new can of worms here. Just a look through the chronological listing of Marvel publications provides several series that have not been as thoroughly indexed as their post-Fantastic Four successors. 

Some examples from the three "Marvel" titles that preceeded everything else: 

1) Motion Picture Funnies Weekly #1 (April, 1939). Besides the first appearances of Sub-Mariner and his supporting cast, featured the start of "American Ace" which would be continued in Marvel Mystery Comics #2 (December, 1939). 

2) Marvel Comics #1 (October, 1939). Besides the well-documented introductions of Human Torch/Jim Hammond and Angel/Thomas Halloway, introduced Masked Raider/Jim Gardley (Marvel's first Western character) and adapted Ka-Zar/David Rand for comic books. Both 

3) "Marvel Comics" was renaimed Marvel Mystery Comics with its #2 issue (December, 1939). Featuring a line-up made of the already familiar Human Torch, Angel, Sub-Mariner, Masked Raider, American Ace and Ka-Zar. Continuing with that name until #92 (June, 1949), new series replaced older ones. Including ones starring: 

*Electro (robot), debuting in #4 (February, 1940). 
*Ferret, debuting in #4 (February, 1940). 
*Terry Vance, debuting in #10 (August, 1940). 
*Vision/Aarkus, debuting in #13 (November, 1940). (His first appearance has been covered for the MCP but not the rest of the series.) 
*Patriot/Jeffrey Mace, debuting in #21 (July, 1941). (His entire series seems to have been covered for the MCP). 
*Jimmy Jupiter, debuting in #28 (February, 1942). A character who can visit the alternate dimension known to him as "Fairyland". Marvel's first dimension traveler? 
*Miss America/Madeline in #49 (October, 1943). (Her entire series seems to have been covered for the MCP). 
*Young Allies (Bucky/James Buchanan Barnes, Jeff/Jefferson Worthing Sandervilt, Knuckles/Percival Aloysius O'Toole, Toro/Thomas Raymond, Tubby/Henry Tinkle and Whitewash Jones). Adventured together since 1941, moved here with #75 (August, 1946) following the cancellation of their own title. 
*Captain America/Steve Rogers. No need for introductions, got added to the line-up with #80 (January, 1947) while still retaining his solo title. 
*Blonde Phantom/Louise Mason. Got added to the line-up with #84 (October, 1947) while still retaining her solo title. (Currently all her She-Hulk appearances are listed for the MCP but not her own 1940s stories). 
*Sun Girl/Mary Mitchell. Debuted in her own title in August, 1948. Added to the line-up with #88 (October, 1948). 
*Venus. Debuted in her own title in August, 1948. Added to the line-up with #91 (April, 1949). 
*Witness. Had debuted back in December, 1941. For some reason revived in #92 (June, 1949) the last issue featuring continuing characters.

			*	*	*

Aug 31, 2007 11:56 pm 
By Dhall

And that series became the first series of Marvel Tales. There was a new Sun Girl tale in #97, but I'm not sure if there were any other stories we'd be interested in, any monster stories, or anything of the like?

			*	*	*

Sep 01, 2007 1:52 am 
By SeanCurtin

dimadick wrote:
>>>
*Witness. Had debuted back in December, 1941. For some reason revived in #92 (June, 1949) the last issue featuring continuing characters.
<<<

Not really a revival, so much as a new, non-superhero character who happened to share a name with a previously existing superhero.

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Sep 01, 2007 2:40 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
And I though the rule was a combination of what Somebody and Jeph posted: we don't bother adding them, but they're canon unless proven otherwise by a post-FF1 story...
<<<

Okay, to clarify this, the FAQ spells out the policy on Golden Age material. 

There's also some previous discussion on Golden Age material that we all might want to review here and here. 

So yeah, they're canon, unless a post-FF1 tale says they're not canon. Now whether that means they all deserve to be added to the MCP, I'm not sure that's been addressed. I show that we have had some Golden Age comics entered into character's listings, (like some "Captain America Comics" issue has been added to Captain America's listing)...though I don't think they've been added to the KEY yet. 

I'll ask again: Is anyone up for the task of going through the MCP and noting which Golden Age comics have already been entered into the MCP? 

As this is very much a matter of debate, this thread isn't fit to be locked on the Checklist forum just yet. I'm moving this to the regular "Marvel Universe" forum for further discussion.

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Sep 02, 2007 6:17 am 
By jimmyppi

I have a list of every comic that currently exist in the MCP (it is generated when I update the search). 

It could maybe be helpful for this task? I can post it if you want? (16500 lines)

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Sep 02, 2007 9:48 am 
By Somebody
Director

I doubt posting over ten thousand lines of text would be helpful - we'd be swamped. Maybe if you could pull out certain subsets (even alphabetically)...

			*	*	*

Sep 03, 2007 1:21 pm 
By jimmyppi

The list can now be found here: 

http://www.chronologygraph.com/comics_2007_08_31.txt

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Sep 04, 2007 8:56 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Thanks, Jimmy! 

A quick review shows several Golden Age comics already in the MCP, (and it's likely I overlooked some): 

ALL SELECT 11 
ALL SELECT 2 
ALL TEEN 20 
ALL WINNERS 19 
ALL WINNERS 19/2 
ALL WINNERS 19/4 
ALL WINNERS 19/5 
ALL WINNERS 19/6 
ALL WINNERS 19/7 
ALL WINNERS 21 
ALL WINNERS 21/2 
ALL WINNERS 21/4 
ALL WINNERS 21/6 
ALL WINNERS 21/7 
ALL WINNERS 6 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 10 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 11 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 13 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 14 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 15 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 16 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 17 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 18 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 19 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 19/3 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 19/7 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 2 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 21 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 21/3 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 21/5 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 21/7 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 3 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 4 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 5 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 7 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 8 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 9 
ALL-SELECT COMICS 3 
ALL-SELECT COMICS 4 
ALL-SELECT COMICS 5 
ALL-SELECT COMICS 7 
BK 1 
BK 2 
BK 3 
BK 4 
BK 5 
BLONDE PHANTOM 12 
BLONDE PHANTOM 13 
BLONDE PHANTOM 14 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1/4 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 10 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 10/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 10/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 16 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 2/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 2/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 22 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 22/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 3/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 3/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 4 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 4/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 4/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 4/4 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 5 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 5/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 5/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 5/4 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 6 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 6/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 6/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 61 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 7 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 7/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 7/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 76 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 76/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 76/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 77 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 77/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 77/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 78 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 78/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 78/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 8 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 8/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 8/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 9 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 9/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 9/3 
CAPTAIN AMIERCA COMICS 5/2 
COMEDY COMICS 9 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 6 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 7 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 8 
HT 1 
HT 2 
HT 3 
HT 35 
HT 36 
HT 37 
HT 38 
HT 4 
HT 5 
HT 5B 
HT 6 
M/MC 2/2 
M/MC 3/2 
M/MC 4/2 
M/MC 5/2 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 1 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 21 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 22 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 33 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 34 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 35 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 38 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 42 
SUN GIRL 1 
SUN GIRL 2 
SUN GIRL 3 
USA COMICS 1 
USA COMICS 10 
USA COMICS 11 
USA COMICS 12 
USA COMICS 14 
USA COMICS 15 
USA COMICS 16 
USA COMICS 17 
USA COMICS 2 
USA COMICS 3 
USA COMICS 4 
USA COMICS 6 
USA COMICS 7 
USA COMICS 8 
USA COMICS 9 
YOUNG ALLIES 1 
YOUNG ALLIES 4 
YOUNG MEN 24 
YOUNG MEN 25 
YOUNG MEN 26 
YOUNG MEN 27 
YOUNG MEN 28 

Okay, so yeah, there is a precedent for adding Golden Age titles to the MCP. This list can in turn be used to show us what titles are NOT yet in the MCP, (and that will slow build up a list of what needs added to the Checklist...that is, if the remaining Golden Age titles warrant adding to the Checklist).

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Sep 04, 2007 11:01 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

ALL WINNERS & ALL WINNERS COMICS are the same book. 

Also, with a few exceptions, almost all Golden Age comics had multiple stories in every issue.(that's why some Captain America Comics & All Winners are listed the way they are) For the books that have multiple stories listed for an issue, I would say they're completely in the Project. Any issues that only list the first story I would list as 'partial' or something.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

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Sep 05, 2007 7:05 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
For the books that have multiple stories listed for an issue, I would say they're completely in the Project.
<<<

I wouldn't say that assumption is warranted, but it's a place to start from.

			*	*	*

Thread 3

Subject: Placement of X-Men: First Class

18 Jun 2007 08:52 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, I took metaldragon's notes, did some further analysis, and came up with the following possible sequence of events for X:FC. In summary, X:FC stories occur here at five distinct points relative to the original UX run... 

X:FC 6 between UX 8 and 9 

X:FC 7 between UX 13 and 14 

X:FC 2, X:C 3, and X:FCS 1/5 between UX 18 and 19 

X:FC 1 and X:FC 8 between UX 21 and 22 

X:FC 4, X:FC 5, X:FCS 1, and X:FCS 1/3 between UX 39 and 40 

I also considered the intro pages in X:FC as separate entities, many of which occur at different points in time from the stories in those issues. 

Here goes... 

UX 7 
The X-Men graduate. 
Xavier appoints Scott deputy team leader. 
Hank and Bobby at the Coffee-A-Go-Go. 

X:FC 2 (intro page) 
In his yearbook, Bobby writes (on a day of class), Think that Kat girl down at the Caf-A-Go-Go likes the Bobby! Gotta get Hank to go down there with me  if he promises not to swing on the rafters again  so Bobby and Hank have been there before, and Bobby has not hooked up with Zelda yet. 

UTSM 21 
Hank and Bobby introduce the rest of the X-Men to the Coffee-A-Go-Go. 
Bobby is snowy. 

UX 8 
Bobby turns icy. 
Xavier is in the Balkans, trying to find Lucifer. 
One week passes within this story. 

X:FC 6-FB 
The version 2.0 costumes are worn by Skrull imposters, so they must appear before now (and probably in public) so the Skrulls know to imitate them  thus, at some point, we may encounter an issue of X:FC that precedes this point. 
Mole Man (known to the press as Harvey Elder) has gigantic creatures attack a rural area. BTS, the FF pursue Mole Man to a remote island. This is likely a never-before-published adventure shortly after A 12. 

X:FC 6 
Begins the day after X:FC 6-FB. 
Xavier is out of town, maybe on his mission to find Lucifer between UX 8 and 9. 
Zelda is seen at the Coffee-A-Go-Go, and Bobby is on the make for girls. This may be the last time the X-Men go to the caf before UX 14 (7-20). 
Cerebro is not seen in this issue, so its possible to place this issue before UX 12. 
Warren says that this has Magneto and the Brotherhood written all over it, so its likely before UX 11. 
Bobby is icy, so its after UX 8. 

X:FC 5 (intro page) 
In her yearbook, Jean notes (on a day of class) that Bobby needs some advice on the girl down at the coffee shop and that she told him to just be himself  this would seem to indicate that this story occurs before Bobby and Zelda date, probably before he asks her out for the first time, in UX 14 (7-20). 

UX 9 
The X-Men join Xavier in the Balkans. 

X:FC 1-FB 
Xavier tells Scott why he chose him to be team leader, so it must be after UX 7. 
Bobby discovers that Scott has to cover his eyes at all times. 

FF 35 
The FF encounter Xavier and Scott at State University. 

FF 36 
The X-Men attend Reeds and Sues engagement party. 

UX 10 
The X-Men meet Ka-Zar. 

UX 11 
The Stranger petrifies Mastermind and takes Magneto and Toad captive. 
Pietro and Wanda leave the Brotherhood. 

UX 12 
The X-Men learn about Cerebro when it detects Juggernaut (even though hes not a mutant!). 
Apparently, Cerebro can sound a loud claxon but cant speak. 

UX 13 The battle with Juggernaut in which the male X-Men are injured. 

[BTS] 
Professor X introduces X-Men to Cerebro AI and starts them on classes with it while they are recovering. Much of the mansion needs to be repaired here as well which would keep Xavier busy. 

X:FC 7-FB 
Beast uses Cerebro to locate Scarlet Witch, whos still in the country after UX 11; this is the last time Cerebro searched for a mutant before X:FC 7. 
Obviously, Hank and Warren know Cerebros function for finding mutants. 
Warren starts seeing Wanda. 
This flashback occurs two weeks before X:FC 7. 
Hank is shown sitting down and Warren is wearing regular clothes over his wings. Hanks crutches are probably just off camera as they are still recovering from the injuries from UX 13. 

XMF 3 (13-22p1) 
It is a couple of weeks after UX 13 and before UX 14. 
Angel is shown using his wings without the harness and Beast is leaping without crutches in a Danger Room session but Jean mentions that the boys show signs of their injuries from UX 13. 
Juggernaut is locked up and comatose in Xaviers basement between UX 13 & 32. 
Magneto and Toad are captives of the Stranger. 

X:FC 7 
Cerebro teaches the students while Xavier is out (its possible hes still making arrangements for finishing repairs to the mansion or just out getting groceries, Cerebro isnt specific). 
Cerebro is good for more than finding mutants; its an artificial intelligence that can speak. 
Cerebro notes that Warren is not in attendance again for the fourth time in two weeks and 
Warren notes that this is date fou with Wanda, so we can assume that hes been seeing Wanda for two weeks. 
The X-Men know Wandas and Pietros first names (Scott makes reference to them). 
They associate the siblings with the Brotherhood, not the Avengers. 
Mastermind is at Xaviers school, still petrified from the Stranger (UX 11). 
The last mutant search Cerebro has run is for Scarlet Witch in X:FC 7-FB two weeks earlier. 
Its possible this is the first time Warren takes Wanda flying as he might be strong enough to do so at this point. 
Warrens fling with Wanda ends. 
Because of the events of this issue, Warren and Hank strain their injuries and have to go back in the flying harness & crutches as seen at the beginning of UX 14. 

UX 18  FB 
Magneto escapes the Strangers planet, leaving the Toad behind. 

M/H&L 97 (17-18) 
Magneto catches up to the fleeing Wanda and Pietro in the Balkans, but they escape him. 

A 16 ~ M/H&L 97 
Pietro and Wanda join the Avengers. 

A 17 
JIM 120 
A 18 
More appearances by Pietro and Wanda. 

MARVELS 2 (32p4) 
Sheldon (in plaid jacket and hat) is among the reporters who interview the FF Fan Club, who are prepared to camp out all week to be at Reeds and Sues wedding; if the wedding is on a Saturday, this might be, say, Tuesday. 
Maintaining the passage of a day between UX 14 (4-6) and UX 14 (7-20) requires moving this panel out of sequence; perhaps a mis-remembering of the sequence of events by Marvels narrator Phil Sheldon. 

MARVELS 2 (32p5) 
Sheldon (in grey suit) is present when his colleagues talk about the upcoming nuptials of Reed and Sue. 
Maintaining the passage of a day between UX 14 (4-6) and UX 14 (7-20) requires moving this panel out of sequence, too; perhaps a mis-remembering of the sequence of events by Marvels narrator Phil Sheldon.. 
Because Sheldons wearing different clothes from 32p4, this should happen on another day, say, Wednesday. 

UX 14 (1-3p4) 
The X-Men recover from the injuries they suffered in the battle with Juggernaut. Xavier tells them theyve earned a vacation  our first one in years according to Warren (exaggerating). 
Scott notes that we have been on the go for months (sure, if recuperating is being on the go...). 
At that moment, Trask is interviewed by reporters, and within minutes the nations presses go into action  its doubtful that newspaper presses are printing the story within minutes of the interview  maybe the nations press (people) goes into action. 
Perhaps this is Thursday. 

MARVELS 2 (30-31p3) 
Phil Sheldon (in his plaid jacket and hat) reads a feature spread with the headline Mutant Menace! Eminent Anthropologist Says Mankind Faces Gravest Danger... that is about to run in the Daily Globe, perhaps in tomorrow mornings edition. 
He encounters a microfilmed account of the X-Men attending Reeds and Sues engagement party (from FF 36). 
A guy sells Reed & Sue 4-Ever T-shirts. 
That night (perhaps Thursday), Sheldon goes home, and apparently changes ties. 

[BTS] 
That night, Sheldon (wearing the new tie) starts spending evenings in Greenwich Village, hoping to see the X-Men. This is his first night there. No sign of the group, who are at the Institute making plans for their vacations. 
Perhaps Thursday. 

UX 14 (3p5-6) 
The Daily Globe Mutant Menace! headline is seen rolling off the press  maybe the morning after Sheldons reading of an advance copy. 
Meanwhile, the X-Men prepare for their vacation [with the Reed/Sue wedding scheduled for the next day, they cant be going far and would have to work that event into each of their leaves  apparently they all decide to spend time away from the Institute but in the greater NYC area]. 
No sooner do they leave, Xavier reads a Daily Globe article about Bolivar Trask with the headline Mutant Menace! Eminent Anthropologist Says Mankind Faces Gravest Danger... 
Perhaps Friday. 

MARVELS 2 (31p4-32p3) 
Iceman and Beast end up in Greenwich Village on the first night of their vacation. 
Sheldon (in grey suit and hat) finally sees them there on his second night of looking for them. 
The Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 2 #1 places Hank and Bobby here between 20p1 and 20p2 of UX 11, but that would mean that theres a good gap between Phils seeing the newspaper headline on Trask and Xaviers discovery about the highly publicized Trask  an odd thing for the worlds leading expert on mutants. I posit that the insertion of XMF 3 between UX 13 and 14 after the publication of the Index forced that gap and so necessitates a new placement for this segment of MARVELS 2. 
Perhaps Friday. 

MARVELS 2 (32p6) 
Guests start arriving for Reeds and Sues wedding. 
Sheldon is present in a black suit. 
Perhaps Saturday. 

FF@ 3 ~ M/H&L 1 ~ MARVELS 2 (33) 
Pietro and Wanda attend Reeds and Sues wedding as Avengers. 
The X-Men attend the wedding, back in version 1.0 costumes. 
Phil Sheldon takes pictures of the wedding. 

UX 14 (7-20) ~ MARVELS 2 (34-45) 
After the wedding, Bobby and Hank go to Coffee-A-Go-Go, Warren has dinner with his parents on Long Island, Jean takes off in a train, and Scott finds himself in a cab. 
Zelda says that she hasnt seen Bobby or Hank in months (X:FC 6?; the months comment may be an exaggeration, especially if the X-Men were regulars who suddenly didnt show up for weeks). Bobby asks her out, but then has to leave, ticking Zelda off. 
That evening  the very next evening after UX 14 (4-6)  Phil delivers his film of the wedding to Barney Bushkin at a bar as Xavier starts debates Trask on TV. Sentinels attack. 
Perhaps Saturday. 
UX 15 
UX 16 
UX 17 
UX 18 
The X-Men fight the Sentinels, then Magneto. 
Magneto destroys the Cerebro desk interface in Xaviers office. 
Magneto lifts the X-Mansion off its foundation  perhaps this interferes with the equipment keeping Juggernaut in stasis in the basement 

X:FC 2 
Xavier: If you remember, before our last adventure [which I interpret UX 14-18]...I had promised you all a vacation, which I [too] interpret as UX 14 (1-3p1). 
For their vacation, they go to the Worthingtons beachfront house in Florida, where they encounter the Lizard. 
The last time Connors was this bad was in ASM 6. 
Jean encourages Scott to remove his glasses release his eye beams, which he need not fear. 

[BTS] 
While the X-Men are away in Florida, Juggernaut sneaks out of the X-Mansion. 

[BTS] 
Xavier tries to repair Cerebro, but isnt entirely successful, as seen below. 

X:FC 3 
The X-Men are familiar with the Sentinels, so it must be after UX 18. 
The frontal lobe chamber appears. 
AI Cerebro backfires on Xavier and shuts down for maintenance. 
Xavier states, Im afraid this chamber is going to need much more work before I can use it reliably. 

X:FCS 1/5  FB 
The appearance of a Sentinel head places this story after UX 18. 
Professor X mentions Cerebro is getting "erratic" readings on Dragon Man but it isn't actually shown "onscreen" so this could be the damaged but still functioning Cerebro of UX 19. 
The X-Men retrieve Dragon Man from a cave and the creature becomes the teams official mascot for a while. 
Dragon Man helps the team go after the escaped Juggernaut and the Blob; Juggy is presumably recaptured to appear next in UX 32, while Blob apparently escapes to appear next in UX 20. 
The X-Men leave Dragon Man at Monster Island. 
Placement of this story here puts Dragon Man here between being handed over to the authorities in FF 47 and before Pym acquired Dragon Man from the authorities months before A 47  this requires Dragon Man to have escaped the authorities to end up in a cave and to have been recaptured by the authorities on Monster Island. 

UX 19 
Xavier says: Since your bouts with the Sentinels and with Magneto in the past few months, Ive been waiting for you to become fully recovered to attain your fighting peak again! ...And thats the reason Ive decided its time you had a little vacation! This implies a lot of time has taken place between UX 18 and this issue; indeed, according to the Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, Vol. 1 #1, UX 19 occurs in early August, and UX 14-18, because of the tie-in to FF@ 3, occurs in late June, according to the Official Marvel Index to the Fantastic Four #3. 
Bobby and Hank double-date with Zelda and Vera. 
Vacation interrupted by the Mimic. 
Cerebro is working enough to tell if there were any mutants within a 100-mile radius. Mimic registers negative (he is a mutate like FF, Spider-Man, & Hulk). 

UX 20 
UX 21 
Cyclops decides to leave the X-Men and find a doctor to rid him of the menace of my deadly eye beams! For, how can mere words ever hope to express all that I feel in my heart for Jean? And yet, have I the right to feel this way about her  while my eyes make me a threat to all I encounter? [the typically Scott reaction to X:FC 2] 
Xavier finishes installing this new Cerebro wall unit in his office. 
Scott rejoins before getting very far to help fight Blob, Unus & Lucifer. 

X:FC 1  FBThe X-Men investigate a disturbance at the botanical gardens in town, to which the X-Men respond in their version 2.0 costumes. The investigation leads the group to the Arctic. 
The X-Men know about Cerebro. 
A prototype of Cerebros frontal lobe chamber  the big spherical room  is shown. 

X:FC 1 
Later that day, Bobby writes a letter about his class field trip to the botanical gardens. 

X:FC 6 (intro page) 
Hank writes in his yearbook on a day of class and mentions shooting clay pigeons yesterday and playing Frisbee. 
Hank mentions Cerebro, so probably after UX 12. 
Hank mentions a gaffe Xavier made earlier (presumably that day). 

X:FC 7 (intro page) 
Cerebro gives a semester evaluation of each student. 

X:FC 8 (intro page) 
In his yearbook, Xavier writes about his students. 

[BTS] 
Xavier leaves to search for Ororo two weeks before X:FC 8 - FB. 

X:FC 8  FB 
Jean receives a cryptic mental transmission from the missing Xavier in her sleep, and the X-Men check in with Cerebro, figure out where Xavier is, and plan to leave for Africa first thing in the morning. 

X:FC 8 
The day after X:FC 8-FB. 
The X-Men take a commercial jet to Africa and on a tip from Warrens aunt, they find guide Ken Hale (Gorilla Man). 
The jet the X-Men mentioned here as the one Xavier took could be Xaviers thought-controlled private jet from UX 1 or possibly the new Blackbird mentioned in X:FC 1 & 5 (and 4?) 
Hale and the X-Men find Xavier trapped in a mystical temple and get trapped themselves before bursting free. 
After this, Xavier returns with the X-Men to Westchester. 

UX 22 
UX 23 
X-Men are given a vacation since last one was interrupted by the battle with the Mimic. [No actual amount of time since UX 19 is mentioned, just no other mentions of going on vacations can take place between then and here.] 
Professor X seems to be suffering the after-effects of X:FC 8. Caption: And thus, the X-Men depart  little dreaming that they leave behind them an anguished mind, a soul in torment... Xavier: They can walk in the sunshine  feel the wind striking their faces  while I am confined to this wheelchair  a hopeless cripple! 
For the first time, Cyclops accepts a invitation to spend time socially with Jean (and Warren). 
The X-Mens vacation is interrupted when Count Nefaria and his villain team force the X-Men into helping them get blackmail money from Washington DC. 
At the end of UX 23 Jean gets a letter from her parents: they enrolled her at Metro College and shes to leave the next day. 

 [Time passes]  

UX 39 
At the end of this story, the X-Men acquire new costumes, designed by Jean between UX 31 and UX 32 (according to the fficial Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 1 #2). 

X:FC 3 (intro page) 
In his yearbook, Scott wonders, When is that jet going to be finished? Vertical take-off and landing, speed of sound... 
Scott also notes, I havent called Alex in a while  wonder if hes taking care of my car (Alex must be in college now). 

X:FC 4 (intro page) 
In his yearbook entry on the intro page, its a school day at Xaviers; Warren notes that the school needs more girls, that his dads accountant said hes not spending his college funds fast enough, and references having fought Magneto, Blob, Namor, and Toad in the past. 

X:FC 4 
Xavier asks the X-Men to use their version 2.0 uniforms and Jean asks when her pointy mask is going to be fixed  that reference places this story after UX 27. 
Bobby says, Hey, Greenwich Village is kinda cool. We should set up a base here, to which Jean replies, We probably wouldnt even stick out  the X-Men are no strangers to Greenwich Village, so this commentary may be for the benefit of Xavier, who could be here with his students for the first time. 
Stranges reference to meeting the X-Men in the flesh this time places this story after UX 33. 
Given that, because Xavier is here, it must occur after UX 39 and likely before UX 40. 
Reference is made to the X-Mens new jet, so it may be before X:FC 5. 

X:FC 5 
This story takes all day to occur and cant fit in a short span of a few hours. 
Xavier uses Cerebro to locate Bobby (and the X-Men know it). 
Xavier meets Thor (they communicated with each other, but hadnt met in person in UX 9, and they did not actually meet at Reed and Sues wedding in FF@ 3 despite the fact that they were both present). 
The X-Men use a jet here, so it may be after X:FC 4. 

X:FCS 1 
Only Hank and Bobby appear here, neither one in a costume. 
Beast mentions Cerebro (post-UX 12) and reminds Iceman that Professor X sent them to investigate a possible class one mutant. 

X:FCS 1/3 
No costumes shown in this story. 
Bernard makes his last spoken-word performance (for a while at least; see below), so it is likely after UX 32. 
In addition to telling Bernard not to perform, Xavier may place a mental block on Bernards powers at the end of this story, which would explain why his powers dont kick in when he finally returns to make a live performance in M/HOL 1994-FB. 
Xaviers psychic presence at the Coffee-A-Go-Go may postdate his trip into the Village with his students in X:FC 4. 

UX 40 
The X-Men are back in the new costumes introduced in UX 39. 

UX 65  FB 
Xaviers place is taken by the Changeling. 


Are we getting closer?

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on 27 Jun 2007 06:54 am, edited 1 time in total. 

Paul B.

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19 Jun 2007 02:33 pm 
by metaldragon

Looks good Paul!

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

19 Jun 2007 05:56 pm 
By Dhall

Great job Paul!

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20 Jun 2007 06:12 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I had considered the Bernard story in the XFC Special to be their *first* encounter with the poet. 

Yes, at the very end Prof. X brainwashes him out of his stand-up career, but the X-Men seem utterly unfamiliar with him and his performances in this issue. In fact, they decide that they really hate his work. 

Personally, I envisioned a scenario where, after this issue, Prof. X devises a way to suppress Bernard's powers, and lets Bernard go back to his love of stand-up poetry -- and the X-Men, thanks to their bizarre adventure with him, now have some kind of perverse, ironic fondness for attending his shows. 

Did we ever see the X-Men "first meet" Bernard back in the '60s? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

21 Jun 2007 04:08 am 
By dimadick

Not really. He just appears in "X-Men" #7 (September, 1964) reciting what appears to be a shopping list as a poem. The audience then requests a poem about the big feet of Hank McCoy. No indication if he knows Hank from before or not. 

On the other hand Zelda also debutes that issue and seems already familiar with Bobby Drake. Indicating Bobby has visited Cofee A-Go-Go before. 

His career goes on though. In "X-Men/Clan Destine" #1 (October, 1996) , Archangel, Beast, Cyclops, Iceman and Jean Grey were all about to attend a comeback performance by Bernard. So Professor X did not end his career after all.

			*	*	*

21 Jun 2007 07:11 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph wrote: 
>>>
I had considered the Bernard story in the XFC Special to be their *first* encounter with the poet. 
<<<

In this scenario, UTSM 21 (in which Hank and Bobby introduce the rest of the X-Men to the Coffee-A-Go-Go) would have to be pushed back before X:FC 1/5, which would have to occur before UX 7. A little shuffling of Marvel chronology would be involved, but nothing major. 

Other thoughts?

Paul B.

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23 Jun 2007 12:08 pm 
By wolframbane

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
UX 39
At the end of this story, the X-Men acquire new costumes, designed by Jean between UX 31 and UX 32 (according to the Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 1 #2).
<<<

In UX 39/1, Jean states 'just before the episode with the Juggernaut [UX 32], I had been hard at work on a pet project of mine - with the professor's permission. Here's a package for each of you. In it, you'll find - a new costume.' I think that is where the reference in OMITTX 2 comes from Paul.

			*	*	*

23 Jun 2007 12:44 pm 
By wolframbane

I was wondering how the story from XU 42/3 fits in with UX 39/1, where Jean returns home from a shopping trip and is given a surprise birthday party by the X-Men. Professor X gives her her green miniskirt costume as a present. Here is my take: 

UX 39/1 (14). The X-Men escape the destruction of Factor Three's headquarters and head home. 
BTS. The X-Men arrive home, Jean's birthday is probably only days away. 
XU 42/3. Jean returns to the mansion from shopping on her birthday. The X-Men (in civilian garb)stage the aftermath of an attack while they prepare a surprise party for her, and she battles in the Danger Room. At the party, she recieves a framed picture of the X-Men from Scott, and the green costume from Charles, which happens to match her new yellow boots she just bought. 
UX 39/1 (15). The X-Men appear later in their training uniforms (including Jean), and Jean remembers the new costumes she made for the X-Men. The X-Men try on the costumes, and Jean tries on the costume Prof X made for her (she does not explicitly mention that she had made he own costume). 

This birthday would have occurred between the panels of UX 39/1, in early April of Year 5 (OMITTX 2). Jean would likely be turning 19 (assuming she was a high school senior in Oct of Year 3 in UX 1 [OMITTX]). The reference to her being a 'Pisces' in H2 337 was made jokingly and likely a misnomer. 

UX 297 had Warren mention they had Jean's 'surprise sweet sixteen' at Harry's Hideaway. Since Warren did not even meet Jean until she was seventeen, he likely is just misremembering her age but does recall the surprise party. Possibly the party at the mansion in XU 42/3 later moved the Harry's. 

In XU 42/3, Scott gives Jean a photograph taken the day they first recieved their training costumes. This is more likely the day the Jean recieved hers in UX 1 (the other X-Men had recieved theirs earlier), but was the first day they all wore them together. Jean comments to the gang that she felt the training costume was 'frumpy' in XU 42/3, but thinks to herself that the training costume was stylish in UX 1. It is probable she felt the costume was quite stylish when she got it, but when the male X-Men went all googley-eyed over her immediately afterwards in UX 1, she indicated it was frumpy from that point on.

			*	*	*

25 Jun 2007 07:25 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Another theory -- Jean's birthday in XU 42/3 occurs in February (at the start of Pieces), before UX 32 ("mid-February" according to the Index). The costume and boots she gets then inspire her to design new costumes for her teammates (her "pet project"). Jean chooses not to wear her new costume until all the costumes are ready, in UX 39. 

Does that work?

Paul B.

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25 Jun 2007 12:37 pm 
By wolframbane

This placement actually does work nicely Paul. It matches up with both Jean being a Pisces (Feb 20 to Mar 20) and just before Iceman's own birthday in UX 32-33 ('mid-February'), during which the Prof was kidnapped by Factor Three and not rescued until UX 39. 

I would suggest the following updates to Cyclops, Marvel Girl, Angel, Professor X, Iceman and Beast: 
UX 31 
XU 42/3 
UX 32

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25 Jun 2007 01:13 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Didn't we already discuss this back when XU #42 came out, and come to the conclusion that it occured during UX #39? 

-Jeph!

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25 Jun 2007 06:04 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I honestly don't recall, and can't seem to find that thread. 

Paul B.

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25 Jun 2007 07:17 pm 
By metaldragon

I finally got a copy of X:FC 1 and noticed a flashback section. It has Bobby remembering the first time he realised that Scott HAD to wear something over his eyes at all times to control his power. Bobby is throwing snowballs at Warren who accidently knocks Scott's glasses off with a wing tip. Scott blasts a part of the stair railing and is afraid he hit Bobby. Jean tells Scott that Bobby is OK and Scott goes to talk to Xavier. Bobby overhears Xavier tell Scott why he chose him to be the team leader and writes in his letter: "I think I learned more that day than in all my classes combined." 

So this has to go after Xavier appoints Cyclops as deputy team leader in UX 7. The earliest spot this could fit is between UX 9 and FF 35 or possibly between pages/panels in UX 7, before Xavier leaves on his trip to search for Lucifer.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

27 Jun 2007 06:55 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Good catch, metaldragon. I've added a few notes to my previous post to reflect this FB.

Paul B.

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27 Jun 2007 01:44 pm 
By metaldragon

jephyork wrote:
>>>
I had considered the Bernard story in the XFC Special to be their *first* encounter with the poet.

Yes, at the very end Prof. X brainwashes him out of his stand-up career, but the X-Men seem utterly unfamiliar with him and his performances in this issue. In fact, they decide that they really hate his work.

Personally, I envisioned a scenario where, after this issue, Prof. X devises a way to suppress Bernard's powers, and lets Bernard go back to his love of stand-up poetry -- and the X-Men, thanks to their bizarre adventure with him, now have some kind of perverse, ironic fondness for attending his shows.

Did we ever see the X-Men "first meet" Bernard back in the '60s?
<<<

A small hitch: Professor X tells Angel over the phone: "... and Cerebro registers your signals--at the same place!"

Also, Hank says "Oh, you owe us for this one, Drake." just before Bernard starts which implies he already knows what Bernard's poetry is like. It's possible he's heard Bernard once already which could place this after UX 7. (Does Bernard appear in UTSM 21? It's not in his listing.) [edit: or X:FC 6 for that matter? Still missing that one!]

So, either this takes place after UX 12, [possibly just before X:FC 7 where they're mostly recovered from the fight with Juggernaut? Problem with that is Zelda saying she hasn't seen Bobby and Hank in "months" in UX 14] or the Professor slipped up in keeping his own secret!

All in all, it's still pretty awkward. The first time Scott and Jean (and Warren- he didn't really meet Bernard in UX 14, he just stuck his head in the door to talk to Bobby and Hank and didn't stay) are shown meeting Bernard the poet in the original run is UX 32 so you could place it anytime between UX 12 and UX 32. If my theory about his power is correct and it takes a psi mutant to activate it, Jean is still a telepath, even if her powers are locked down until around UX 40/41. Otherwise, this could simply be the first time his powers kicked in and leave it at that.

[Edit]So conclusion: maybe between UX 18 & 19?


metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Hmm... I just thought his powers kicked in for the first time. He does look a lot younger than the original Bernard the Poet but I just thought that was part of the whole "updating" the look of the series to appeal to "today's youth"/new readers and was actually the same person.

If this is a different Bernard the Poet, the tone of Warren & Hank's teasing Bobby about liking Zelda could place this before Bobby's first date with her in UX 19 (the between UX 18 & 19 "months" gap. Again! Am I seeing a bit of a trend here...? *nudges Paul B*)
<<<

Ooo! I just got to quote myself from an earlier post! lol! Still could apply if this is the same Bernard the Poet.
Last edited by metaldragon on 27 Jun 2007 05:16 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

27 Jun 2007 02:34 pm 
By Somebody
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Didn't we already discuss this back when XU #42 came out, and come to the conclusion that it occured during UX #39?
<<<


Archive #32 wrote:
>>>
XU 42/3 and X 39
Posted by Paul Bourcier on March 01, 2003 at 08:18:58:

I just read the third story in X-Men Unlimited #42 and it seems that it contradicts the course of events at the end of X-Men v.1 #39, in which the X-Men get their new, individually-styled costumes. I don't have X-Men v.1 #39; the closest I have is the plot description in Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, v.1 #2. Can anyone reconcile these two stories?

Paul

* * *

Re: XU 42/3 and UX 39
Posted by Jeph! on March 01, 2003 at 10:33:49:
In Reply to: XU 42/3 and X 39
posted by Paul Bourcier on March 01, 2003 at 08:18:58:

> I just read the third story in X-Men Unlimited #42 and it seems that it contradicts the course of events at the end of X-Men v.1 #39, in which the X-Men get their new, individually-styled costumes. 

Holy shit! Current Marvel comics contradicting older Marvel comics??? Who'd'a thunk it??!

Mutter, grumble. X-Men Unlimited strikes again.

> Can anyone reconcile these two stories?

I'll take it to work with me today and see if I can. However, we may just have to shrug and place it right before the last scenes in UX #39 -- working on the assumption that Jean got her costume first, and the boys got theirs, say, the day after.

Have we ever seen Jean have a birthday before, by the way?

-Jeph!

* * *

Re: XU 42/3 and UX 39
Posted by Paul Bourcier on March 01, 2003 at 15:48:44:
In Reply to: Re: XU 42/3 and UX 39
posted by Jeph! on March 01, 2003 at 10:33:49:

> Holy shit! Current Marvel comics contradicting older Marvel comics??? Who'd'a thunk it??!

Yeah, it would be nice if Marvel writers actually read the comics...

> I'll take it to work with me today and see if I can. However, we may just have to shrug and place it right before the last scenes in UX #39 -- working on the assumption that Jean got her costume first, and the boys got theirs, say, the day after.

Thanks, Jeph. That last scene in UX 39 will be critical. If everyone, including Jean, gets their new costumes at the same time (especially if Jean is wearing her old costume at the time of receipt), then we're gonna have some 'splainin' to do.

> Have we ever seen Jean have a birthday before, by the way?

I don't believe so. Bobby's was seen in UX 32 (February) and Hank's in X:HY 22 (December). Placement of XU 42/3 at the time of UX 39 would mean an April birthday for Jean.

--Paul

* * *

Huzzah! It works!
Posted by Jeph! on March 03, 2003 at 15:51:05:
In Reply to: Re: XU 42/3 and UX 39
posted by Paul Bourcier on March 01, 2003 at 15:48:44:

> > > I just read the third story in X-Men Unlimited #42 and it seems that it contradicts the course of events at the end of X-Men v.1 #39, in which the X-Men get their new, individually-styled costumes. Can anyone reconcile these two stories?

Yes ... yes I can.

At the very end of UX #39, after the Mutant Master has been defeated and the X-Men return home, Jean says "I just remembered something great!" -- and she proceeds to hand out new costumes for all the boys.

That's right -- JEAN gave them all new costumes. Not the professor. And she doesn't utter a word about her own new outfit -- for example, she doens't say that she made it herself -- meaning the story in XU #42/3, showing her receiving it for a birthday gift, DOESN'T contradict anmything.

What Jean DOES say is, "just before the episode with the Juggernaut, I had been hard at work on a pet project of mine -- with the professor's permission!" To me, this implies that Jean's birthday in XU #42/3 takes place just before "the Juggernaut episode" (meaning, between UX #31 and #32), and she was inspired by her birthday gift to make new costumes for EVERYONE.

It also gives us an implied explanation as to why she's wearing her old outfit in UX #32-38 -- she didn't want to wear her new one until everybody else's was ready.

But, yeah -- XU #42/3 doesn't contradict a damned thing about UX #39, and it fits nicely into continuity right between UX #31-32.

Hooray!

-Jeph!
<<<

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27 Jun 2007 05:16 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Holy shit! Current Jeph contradicting older Jeph??? Who'd'a thunk it??! 

-Jeph!

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27 Jun 2007 06:30 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Shouldn't that be "Current Jeph contradicting younger Jeph???" ? 

			*	*	*

27 Jun 2007 07:52 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I thought of that but decided to let the quote stay mostly the same for comedy value. Personally, I'm shocked that I remembered having a discussion FOUR YEARS AGO at all... 

-Jeph!

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28 Jun 2007 07:13 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
It also gives us an implied explanation as to why she's wearing her old outfit in UX #32-38 -- she didn't want to wear her new one until everybody else's was ready. 
<<<
 
I had no recollection of this exchange, but Jeph's suggestion must have wormed its way into my subconscious mind, as I suggested the same thing just days ago! 

Looks like we're agreed, then. 

Paul B.

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28 Jun 2007 04:01 pm 
By dimadick

"(Does Bernard appear in UTSM 21? It's not in his listing.) " 

Yes. He recites another curious poem. 

"There they were, a generation 
lost alone overwhelmed 
thirsting for a wake-up call, 
without even a toothbrush"

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28 Jun 2007 05:43 pm 
By Dhall

It should be added to his listing.

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Jun 2007 02:39 pm 
By metaldragon

Speaking of poems... Bernard says "The ghost is a gargoyle" in X:FC Special 1 which implies this story takes place shortly after the Beast & Iceman story, as that incident would be fresh on their minds. 

I'm still looking for a copy of UTSM 21... do they say that this is the FIRST time Iceman & Beast introduce the rest of the X-Men to the Coffee-a-Go-Go? The X-Men are familiar with this branch of the Go-Go in the X:FC Special and Zelda seems to recognize them, so it would still have to come after UTSM 21 then I guess. 

[edited out "something like" because quote is correct]

Last edited by metaldragon on 02 Jul 2007 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

29 Jun 2007 03:00 pm 
By metaldragon

Just picked up X:FC2 1. Clues to placement: 

Sue calls Reed her husband so after FF@ 3. 

Marvel Girl is working on levitating herself because she wants to fly. The first time she does so "in the field" originally was UX 22 where she mentions she's still working on it. So this issue could come before that. 

Angel says they "Cerebro'd" her so this is probably the fully functional version post-UX 20-21. 

So how about between X:FC 1 & X:FC 8? (between UX 21 & 22)

Last edited by metaldragon on 03 Jul 2007 02:20 am, edited 1 time in total. 

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

29 Jun 2007 03:52 pm 
By Somebody
Director

When did Sue first make other stuff invisible, and was it referred to as the first time or did it "just happen"? 

Just curious, since it happens a couple of (plot-important) times in FC2 1 and may or may not be a placement clue on that basis. 

Also, while two of the Invisible Girl's flashbacks on p7 are generic, is this one a reference to something: 

			*	*	*

29 Jun 2007 11:00 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I'm pretty sure that it just happened. Pretty early on, if I remember right... way before Annual 3. As for the FlashBack, I have no idea. Sean K. should know both answers off the top of his head, though. 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

29 Jun 2007 11:35 pm 
By metaldragon

Somebody wrote:
>>>
When did Sue first make other stuff invisible, and was it referred to as the first time or did it "just happen"?

Just curious, since it happens a couple of (plot-important) times in FC2 1 and may or may not be a placement clue on that basis.
<<<

I think it was the issue when Reed was testing her abilities. The same time they figured out she could make forcefields, she learned that she could make other things besides herself invisible as well. I'm fairly sure this was before they got married. I'll have to check my Essential FF when I get home. Sadly, not until Mon. I'm sure there's an expert on here who knows!

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

29 Jun 2007 11:41 pm 
By Arthur
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
When did Sue first make other stuff invisible, and was it referred to as the first time or did it "just happen"? 
<<<

Sue shows the ability to turn other things invisible in FF 22. Johnny is clearly surprised. Reed comments "This is what I've been waiting for, Sue! Your third power!"

			*	*	*

03 Jul 2007 02:54 am 
By metaldragon

If X:FC2 1 is placed between UX 21 & 22 for the X-Men... FF 51-52 were published same months. Is there a possible spot around those issues that might work for the FF, Mad Thinker and Awesome Android?"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

03 Jul 2007 07:11 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
If X:FC2 1 is placed between UX 21 & 22 for the X-Men... FF 51-52 were published same months. 
<<<

My calculations would put such a placement between pages of FF 50 -- after the Galactus visit and before Johnny enrolls at Metro.


>>>
So how about between X:FC 1 & X:FC 8? (between UX 21 & 22)
<<<

Why not after X:FC 8 to maintain publication order (not that that's been critical with X:FC)?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

03 Jul 2007 11:54 am 
By metaldragon

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
>>>
So how about between X:FC 1 & X:FC 8? (between UX 21 & 22)
<<<

Why not after X:FC 8 to maintain publication order (not that that's been critical with X:FC)?
<<<

I just thought X:FC 8 works well as the last thing before UX 22 because of that bit of angst from Xavier in UX 22: 


>>>
Professor X seems to be suffering the after-effects of X:FC 8. Caption: And thus, the X-Men depart  little dreaming that they leave behind them an anguished mind, a soul in torment... Xavier: They can walk in the sunshine  feel the wind striking their faces  while I am confined to this wheelchair  a hopeless cripple! 
<<<

And why not have X:FC2 1 come right after X:FC 1? Kind of makes a nice paring in my mind. 

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

06 Jul 2007 10:24 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

2nd verse, same as the 1st! 

From Joe Friday's on Newsarama, this time we have Editor Mark Paniccia's view: 

>>>
"Binaryian": Online fans have been confused (and contentious) about the continuity/canon issues surrounding X-Men: First Class. The title is intentionally contemporary and skewed for an all ages audience, so why not just call it Marvel Adventures: The X-Men? Seems to me that this would strengthen and complete the Marvel Adventures line, especially when they're on the shelf together in TPB form.

MP: The book is intentionally contemporary so its more appealing to new-to-comics readers, but if we were to brand the book as Marvel Adventures, it would for sure be considered out of continuity. Writer Jeff Parker approaches these stories as in continuity, slipping between and around the original Stan and Jack issues. And as he pointed out recently at Heroes Con, theres a difference between continuity and canon. Its up to future Marvel writers as to whether these stories will be referenced or expanded on.

Were doing our best (and learning lessons along the way) to keep the book as timeless as possible, like a Wes Anderson movie for instance. In any case, we just hope that you find the stories entertaining and that youre enjoying seeing the original 5 together. 
<<<

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

08 Jul 2007 10:13 am 
By Somebody
Director

X:FC2 #2 preview. Mastermind statue/coatstand, no Cerebro: http://forum.newsarama.com/printthread.php?t=119811

			*	*	*

08 Jul 2007 03:39 pm 
By metaldragon

Well, from that snippet, looks like before the X:FC Special 1 story with Dragon Man (they're familiar with Monster Island there), definitely after UX 11 (Mastermind statue), and probably after UX 18 (& X:FC 2). Hmm. If the petrified Mastermind was in the mansion during UX 17-18, he's never shown... which leads me to wonder if Magneto saw him and wrote him off as a lost cause? I assume Factor Three took him from the mansion at some point and un-petrified him. 

It could go either side of X:FC 3 I suppose."May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

08 Jul 2007 04:03 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
this time we have Editor Mark Paniccia's view:
<<<

Let's just say that I'm happy to have an editor weigh in on this series. 

Dave H

			*	*	*

17 Jul 2007 02:35 pm 
by wolframbane

In X:FC 3 (16:4-5), the X-men observe Charles Xavier's memory of his childhood, where his housekeeper Ms. Lafitte gives him some custard. 

Charles is depicted as a young boy, wearing a suit and short pants. He has a full head of hair, so it is definitely before he was in high school. This probably was not when he was shown wearing a suit during and after his father's funeral in UX 12 (4:4-5:6), as he had long pants on. Since this seem s to be a happier time in his youth, I would suggest it happens before his father's death. 

XMF 4 (11:2)-FB 
X:FC 3 (16:4-5)-FB 
UX 12 (4:4 - 5:6)-FB

			*	*	*

22 Jul 2007 07:31 pm 
By metaldragon

I thought it would be fun to read the original X-Men stories again with the X-Men: First Class issues in the order we've placed them and discovered one or two little things: 

In UX 3 Scott says to Professor X "It's just that I worry about the awesome power in my eyes! If I should ever forget to shield them, anything might happen! Sometimes I wish I were not Cyclops!" Bobby overhears and says "I don't know about ol' gloomy-face, but I'm glad I'm the Iceman!" Which looks like the X:FC 1-FB should come before this (which it can't because of Cyclops getting team leader position). However, since he was goofing off at the time I suspect Iceman missed the earlier part of what Cyclops said and only heard "Sometimes I wish I were not Cyclops!" So it's still possible he really didn't know that Scott HAD to keep his eyes covered at all times. Then in UX 7, pg 6, panels 6-7 Cyclops says to the rest of the team, "You know how I fear the power beam which emanates from my eyes--!" "I shudder to think what would happen if it ever accidentally gets out of my control!" Which leads me to believe the X:FC 1-FB probably belongs between panels 3 (after Professor X shows Scott Cerebro and appoints him team leader) & 4 (which takes place the next morning when Professor X leaves to search for Lucifer) on pg 6 of UX 7. In fact, on Page 7, panel 1, Bobby even says "We know how you feel, Scotty! And we're with you all the way, pal!" which is surprisingly understanding for Bobby! It makes even more sense if you put the X:FC 1-FB where I suggest. 

I noticed that, besides UX 9 and FF@ 3, in FF 36 the X-Men and Thor were at Reed & Sue's engagement party at the same time but aren't actually shown talking. So I doubt this was a significant enough meeting to affect the placement of X:FC 5 either. 

In X:FC 7 Jean says "What a time for the Professor to be on vacation!" which I missed in my notes on this issue so my theory that Professor X was just "out" is a bit off. Still, after having to organize repairs to the mansion and nurse the X-Men back to health he probably needed a vacation, so it doesn't really affect the placement. Just something I missed the first time around. 

I discovered in UX 14 that Marvel Girl levitates herself from the window of a train onto it's roof where she thinks "I've been practicing this feat for months! I can only do it for short distances but I'm improving each time!" She does it again in UX 15 to reach the Sentinels' fortress, also in UX 16 when they're trapped in the gravity globe, and lowers herself to the ground when the the fortress goes up in flames, and yet again in UX 17 when she leaves the hospital with the Beast! Next we see her sitting, hovering in one spot while reading a comic in UX 19 during a Danger Room session. I'd argue that these were all short "hops" and not the true "flight" she was going for in X:FC2 1. The first time we really see her "fly" for any extended period of time is in the Danger Room session in UX 22 when they go up against the new Colosso robot, which looks much more like what she was going for in X:FC2 1 than those previous instances. I REALLY dislike the idea of trying to wedge it between FF@ 3 and the rest of UX 14. That would really throw Marvels 2 out the window. 

Another VERY interesting thing I discovered was, at the end of UX 20... Well, I'll just quote the caption: "Minutes later, a seemingly solid wall of the stately school-building rises - - to reveal a sleek private jet, poised momentarily before rocketing skyward..." Professor X: "As you know, I purchased this plane several weeks ago - - but our encounters with the Sentinels and Magneto kept us too busy to use it before! It's been especially fitted for short take-offs and landings!" It's not a Blackbird but it IS a new jet and I'd totally forgotten about it! So the X:FC 3 intro page should probably go before UX 14 then, and X:FC 5 could fit between UX 21 & 22 if this is the same jet? I suppose that means, BTS, that Xavier had the hangar installed in the mansion between UX 13 & 14, while the work crews were repairing the damage Juggernaut caused and had the plane delivered. Wild. Hey, this also strengthens the placement of X:FC 8 between UX 21 & 22 if he hadn't used the plane before UX 20. 

Now, learning all that that affects the placement of X:FC2 1 because of Iceman's comment about not having a cool plane like the FF. It's implied that Professor X kept it's existance a secret until UX 20. X:FC2 1 will have to go before UX 20 then and Warren's comment about using Cerebro to locate Marvel Girl is the damaged but functional one of UX 19. So, possible placement for X:FC2 1 could be either side of UX 19. Since she's shown levitating in the danger room for the first time there and X:FC2 1 implies that she has been doing most of her levitating practice on her own, I'd place it right before UX 19. 

I still have to pick up X:FC 2, 5 & 6 so you'll probably get some more notes when I get them. lol! Oh man, I'm enjoying this too much. I'm such a nerd. lol!

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

23 Jul 2007 09:45 am 
By Somebody
Director

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Another VERY interesting thing I discovered was, at the end of UX 20... Well, I'll just quote the caption: "Minutes later, a seemingly solid wall of the stately school-building rises - - to reveal a sleek private jet, poised momentarily before rocketing skyward..." Professor X: "As you know, I purchased this plane several weeks ago - - but our encounters with the Sentinels and Magneto kept us too busy to use it before! It's been especially fitted for short take-offs and landings!" It's not a Blackbird but it IS a new jet and I'd totally forgotten about it! So the X:FC 3 intro page should probably go before UX 14 then, and X:FC 5 could fit between UX 21 & 22 if this is the same jet? I suppose that means, BTS, that Xavier had the hangar installed in the mansion between UX 13 & 14, while the work crews were repairing the damage Juggernaut caused and had the plane delivered. Wild. Hey, this also strengthens the placement of X:FC 8 between UX 21 & 22 if he hadn't used the plane before UX 20.
<<<

STOL's not the same as VTOL though.

VTOL planes are pretty rare because of the energy involved, but do exactly what they say on the tin (i.e., they can take off and land vertically).

STOL planes are more common, but they still need a runway*. They're used on aircraft carriers and the like.

The X:FC1 talk, and FC3 yearbook page both refer to VTOL (i.e., Blackbird), not STOL (the UX20 plane) - although I suppose the plane actually in FC1 (and off-panel in FC8) could be the STOL plane [although the plane in FC1 isn't kept at the Mansion, but at "the little airport down the highway" they go to in "the van".]. FC5 *shows* the Blackbird.

*According to Wikipedia, the formal NATO definition of an STOL plane is: 

>>>
Short Take-Off and Landing is the ability of an aircraft to clear a 15 m (50 ft) obstacle within 450 m (1,500 ft) of commencing take-off or, in landing, to stop within 450 m (1,500 ft) after passing over a 15 m (50 ft) obstacle.
<<<

Incidentally, where does FC5 fall in Ymir's continuity, if the issue's "between UX 39 and 40"?

			*	*	*

25 Jul 2007 05:55 pm 
By metaldragon

Somebody wrote:
>>>
The X:FC1 talk, and FC3 yearbook page both refer to VTOL (i.e., Blackbird), not STOL (the UX20 plane) - although I suppose the plane actually in FC1 (and off-panel in FC8) could be the STOL plane [although the plane in FC1 isn't kept at the Mansion, but at "the little airport down the highway" they go to in "the van".]. FC5 *shows* the Blackbird. 
<<<

Ah! Thanks for clearing that up for me Somebody. So XFC 3 yearbook and XFC 5 are fine where they are then.  

I suppose the plane from UX 20 could be at the little airport getting a tune-up in XFC 1 instead of at the mansion. Maybe their new hangar "seemingly solid wall" door jammed after UX 21 and they had to land at the airport instead 'cause they couldn't get back in?  


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Incidentally, where does FC5 fall in Ymir's continuity, if the issue's "between UX 39 and 40"?
<<<

Well, T 147 & 148 were published the same months as UX 39 & 40. Is there a spot around those issues for Thor to appear here? Hm... is Ymir's listing complete? It looks pretty weedy.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

25 Jul 2007 06:53 pm 
By metaldragon

Further thoughts on the Bernard the Poet story in XFCS 1: Hank says, "Neo-Mutants. Xavier theorized a type of mutant with latent power. Whose abilities only kick in around other X-Genes..." That sounds suspiciously a lot like the Mimic to me. Since they met the Mimic for the first time in UX 19 and no one comments on that, I wonder if this issue shouldn't go before that. The way they tease Bobby about liking Zelda also reads pre-first date in UX 19 to me too. Hank seems familiar with his poetry so it's at least after UX 7. Professor X mentioning Cerebro to Warren places it after UX 12. I like jephyork's idea: 

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Personally, I envisioned a scenario where, after this issue, Prof. X devises a way to suppress Bernard's powers, and lets Bernard go back to his love of stand-up poetry -- and the X-Men, thanks to their bizarre adventure with him, now have some kind of perverse, ironic fondness for attending his shows.
<<<

That would just mean this is the first time Bernard's powers kicked in and doesn't mean it has to be his first ever appearance. This way, all 3 stories in XFCS 1 can stay together they way they are in the issue. Possible revised order now might look like... 

UX 18 
XFC 2 
XFC 3 
XFCS 1/1 
XFCS 1/3 
XFCS 1/5-FB 
XFC2 1 
UX 19 

There would just have to be a BTS bit where Professor X shuts down Bernard's powers and so he can do poetry readings again for his next appearance in UX 31 without totally messing the X-Men up again. Thoughts anyone?

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

25 Jul 2007 08:18 pm 
By Somebody
Director

FC2 2's part 1 of 2. Nothing analysable for timeframe that I saw beyond the preview I linked to earlier. And no in-character scribbling on the intro page! Boo! 


metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Well, T 147 & 148 were published the same months as UX 39 & 40. Is there a spot around those issues for Thor to appear here? Hm... is Ymir's listing complete? It looks pretty weedy.
<<<

It's not Thor v1 I'm thinking about directly, but the Dr Strange v1/Avengers v1 story with Surtur & Ymir.

It's been a while since I've read those issues, but I get the feeling from what I remember that X:FC 5 would fit a lot more neatly before it than after it (placement of X:FC 5 relative to X:FC 4 may play a part here - given that it's a sequel to UX 33, and Dr Strange appears in X:FC 4 with his classic look, rather than the mask-like look he's adopted by the Dr S/Avengers story. If 5's before 4, then that enforces that Ymir appears in X:FC 5 before DRSTR177-178 & A61 by default.)

The JiM/Thor backups are Tales of Asgard stories - pre-Blake stories, and so not an immediate concern.


metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Further thoughts on the Bernard the Poet story in XFCS 1: Hank says, "Neo-Mutants. Xavier theorized a type of mutant with latent power. Whose abilities only kick in around other X-Genes..." That sounds suspiciously a lot like the Mimic to me. Since they met the Mimic for the first time in UX 19 and no one comments on that, I wonder if this issue shouldn't go before that.
<<<

Of course, at that point, Mimic wasn't meant to be a mutant (I think that may have been reversed later). Whatever that's worth.

			*	*	*

26 Jul 2007 12:25 am 
By metaldragon

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Since they met the Mimic for the first time in UX 19 and no one comments on that, I wonder if this issue shouldn't go before that.
<<<

Wow, that wasn't vague at all!  Sorry, what I meant by that bit was, the description of a neo-mutant fits Mimic's abilities. If XFCS 1/3 takes place after UX 19, that would probably be the first thing to pop into their minds as an example of a neo-mutant from Xavier's description. I'd expect someone to reply to Hank along the lines of "What? You mean, like the Mimic?" after hearing that. Since no-one did, I think it might be another hint at a placing it before UX 19. 

Hopefully, that made more sense.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

26 Jul 2007 05:31 am 
By Enda80

Ymir really does not have that many appearances, hence his listing appearing a bit "weedy". The only other possible additions that come to mind are Thor Annual#5 and Thor II#83. I know of no on-panel appearances set during the Hyborian Age, but Ymir was BTS in Savage Tales#1.

			*	*	*

26 Jul 2007 07:05 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
I'd expect someone to reply to Hank along the lines of "What? You mean, like the Mimic?" after hearing that. Since no-one did, I think it might be another hint at a placing it before UX 19.
<<<

Standard disclaimer applies: I haven't read the story in question. 

I would discourage that line of reasoning. In fact, I would discount it entirely. Lack of evidence doesn't constitute evidence of any kind, even a hint. What you're citing here is simply a hint that the story doesn't involve the Mimic, and the writer didn't want to unnecessarily confuse new readers by mentioning a 45-year-old character who doesn't appear in the story. It can't be taken as a placement clue. 


watching: today

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

31 Jul 2007 01:42 pm 
By metaldragon

Whoops! Foot in mouth again. Sorry about that. I just thought it would be odd for Professor X to have a lecture on neo-mutants that only Hank remembers. You'd think that having met Mimic would serve as a mnemonic for Xavier's description of a neo-mutant. "... a type of mutant with latent powers. Whose abilities only kick in around other x-genes." 

I just wondered if that was another possible clue that this story came before UX 19 besides the others I mentioned. I guess the only way to find out where this story is really meant to go would be to ask Jeff Parker himself. 

Anyway, just a thought. No biggie.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

31 Jul 2007 03:38 pm 
By metaldragon

Finally got ahold of copies of XFC 2, 5 & 6. Noticed a tiny placement snag in 6... Scott: "Aliens could want to discredit us? Lucifer, maybe." Which suggests maybe it's after their first encounter with Lucifer. If this is before UX 9, why would Scott think Lucifer would attempt to discredit them before they even met? Unless Professor X telepathicly explained to Scott that Lucifer is an alien BTS sometime between UX 8 and XFC 6, and Scott believes that Lucifer knows enough about the X-Men and their connection to Xavier to discredit them, Scott's comment only makes sense if XFC 6 comes after UX 9. 

Angel's comment about the Brotherhood would still place this before UX 11 of course. 

Jean's comment about Xavier dealing with "personal stuff" and that they can't "drag him home every time something comes up" really does sound like the situation between UX 7 & 9. 

Personally, I like this placement and think Xavier told Scott a bit more about Lucifer BTS than what we're shown in UX 7 & 8 and Scott's comment is just a bit of wild speculation about the only alien he's heard about that might try to discredit them."May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

08 Aug 2007 03:32 pm 
By wolframbane

This could be after UX 20-21, when the X-Men are aware that Lucifer is an alien who has a history of trying to discredit them using costumed baddies impersonating them. 

Or possibly, the Skrulls got the idea from Lucifer, or vice versa. Maybe even Lucifer heard Scott's statement via remote surveillance and thought it was a good idea.

			*	*	*

18 Aug 2007 10:25 pm 
By Somebody
Director

First Class v2 #3 (pt 2 of 2) preview, with Big Round Room Cerebro: http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/ ... i?id=11653

			*	*	*

26 Aug 2007 12:02 pm 
By metaldragon

An interesting tidbit: XFC2 3 has a secondary story by Jeff Parker and Colleen Coolie. It takes place just after the X-Men return home from Monster Island and implies that XFC2 2 and 3 takes place before Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver join the Avengers. That would mean pushing these 2 issues before UX 14 (just after their appearance in XFC 7). Question is, do we consider this story a clue to placement or should it be treated the same as the 1 page comic strips in XFCS 1 and throw out the reference entirely? 

Again, the problem we're faced with is Beast and Angel's injuries at the beginning of UX 14. I guess one can assume they are injured leaving Monster Island and we see them recovering from those injuries in UX 14? I'll have to re-read UX 14 again to see if they specificly attribute their injuries to the Juggernaut. If not, then this should fit alright in the "weeks" between UX 13 & 14 just after XFC 7.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

26 Aug 2007 12:24 pm 
By JD

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
 I'll have to re-read UX 14 again to see if they specificly attribute their injuries to the Juggernaut.
<<<

Er, yes : Scott says "I was afraid that my attack upon the Juggernaut had strained my powers beyond repair".

			*	*	*

26 Aug 2007 12:34 pm 
By Somebody
Director

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
If the petrified Mastermind was in the mansion during UX 17-18, he's never shown... which leads me to wonder if Magneto saw him and wrote him off as a lost cause? I assume Factor Three took him from the mansion at some point and un-petrified him.
<<<

Well, not from the Mansion, per FC2 3 


metaldragon wrote:
>>>
An interesting tidbit: XFC2 3 has a secondary story by Jeff Parker and Colleen Coolie. It takes place just after the X-Men return home from Monster Island and implies that XFC2 2 and 3 takes place before Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver join the Avengers. That would mean pushing these 2 issues before UX 14 (just after their appearance in XFC 7). Question is, do we consider this story a clue to placement or should it be treated the same as the 1 page comic strips in XFCS 1 and throw out the reference entirely?

Again, the problem we're faced with is Beast and Angel's injuries at the beginning of UX 14. I guess one can assume they are injured leaving Monster Island and we see them recovering from those injuries in UX 14? I'll have to re-read UX 14 again to see if they Specifically attribute their injuries to the Juggernaut. If not, then this should fit alright in the "weeks" between UX 13 & 14 just after XFC 7.
<<<

I've been going back on forth on the "but am the backup canon?" bit since I read it. Right now, I'm leaning toward "yes", but that could change  

IF it is though, I'd put the order as: 

X:FC2 2 
X:FC2 3 
X:FC 7 
X:FC2 3/2-FB 
X:FC2 3/2 
(not too many 2s and 3s ) 

After all, Jean's flashback in the backup is already "the other day" after the Monster Island thing. AND, in X:FC 7, Bobby says "the Professor promised to be rid of it [Mastermind statue] by now". And when does he promise to get rid of it? X:FC2 3 .

			*	*	*

26 Aug 2007 06:24 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I would say yes, the backup in issue 3 counts. Also, I seem to remember a mention of Ka-Zar in issue 2... I think. So in context with Uncanny, it's something like this: 

UX 10 
... 
X:FC2 2 
X:FC2 3 
X:FC 7 
X:FC2 3/2-FB 
X:FC2 3/2 
... 
A 16 

Or am I mis-remembering the Ka-Zar shout-out?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

26 Aug 2007 06:33 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Also, I seem to remember a mention of Ka-Zar in issue 2... I think. [...] Or am I mis-remembering the Ka-Zar shout-out?
<<<

Yes and no. There's no Ka-Zar mention in #2. However Scott & Jean *do* mention the Savage Land, which amounts to the same thing for chronologising 

			*	*	*

26 Aug 2007 06:48 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Ah, yes. The Savage Land was it. Thanks!

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

27 Aug 2007 12:26 am 
By metaldragon

I disagree on the placement before XFC 7, Somebody. I think Xavier would remove the threat of Mastermind as soon as he could after discovering Mastermind was able to attack them and getting stronger, so I'd place XFC2 2 & 3 after XFC 7. The dialogue in XFC 7 sounds like they didn't know Mastermind was conscious in his petrified form and were having a "Scooby Doo" moment. 

I suppose one could argue that Cyclops and Iceman aren't back up to full power the whole time between UX 13 & 14 and Angel & Beast are injured when they're leaving Monster Island to make the scene at the beginning of UX 14 work. 

My placement: 

UX 13 
XFC 7-FB 
XMF 3 
XFC 7 
XFC2 2 
XFC2 3 
XFC2 3/2-FB 
XFC2 3/2 
UX 14

Last edited by metaldragon on 28 Aug 2007 02:20 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

27 Aug 2007 05:57 am 
By Somebody
Director

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
I disagree on the placement before XFC 7, Somebody. I think Xavier would remove the threat of Mastermind as soon as he could after discovering Mastermind was able to attack them and getting stronger, so I'd place XFC2 2 & 3 after XFC 7.
<<<

"I must move him to a facility that can negate his powers. Out of the Mansion." 

Does this facility exist? If it does, can X move MM there immediately, or does he need to make arrangements (never underestimate the power of bureaucracy)? If it doesn't, or at least the facilities within it that X requires need to be constructed, how long does this take? 

Still, maybe if you say X:FC2 2-3 were very shortly after FC 7 or something, and X buzzed in to say he was going to see Duncan on the way back from his vacation... 

Or another thought occurs - does X:FC2 3/2 *have* to be pre-Avengers #16? She doesn't make the decision to join the Avengers as such, she acquiesces to her "over-protective brother", and it's not as if Cap or Hawkeye are people she would "hang" with or confide in about her doubts and insecurities at this point.

			*	*	*

27 Aug 2007 12:48 pm 
By wolframbane

Has it ever been revealed in any source, comic or handbook, how Mastermind was restored to human form? Did it wear off? Did Factor 3 do it?

			*	*	*

27 Aug 2007 07:35 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Somebody wrote:
>>>
"I must move him to a facility that can negate his powers. Out of the Mansion."

Does this facility exist?
<<<


I wouldn't be surprised if that facility turns out to be Muir Island.

			*	*	*

28 Aug 2007 02:15 am 
By wolframbane

Or perhaps the Muir-Magtaggart Research Facility in NY State, where Moira trained Kid Vulcan and company. This is also where Charles and Karl Lykos (Sauron) worked on Project Mutant.

			*	*	*

28 Aug 2007 11:50 am 
By metaldragon

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Still, maybe if you say X:FC2 2-3 were very shortly after FC 7 or something, and X buzzed in to say he was going to see Duncan on the way back from his vacation...

Or another thought occurs - does X:FC2 3/2 *have* to be pre-Avengers #16? She doesn't make the decision to join the Avengers as such, she acquiesces to her "over-protective brother", and it's not as if Cap or Hawkeye are people she would "hang" with or confide in about her doubts and insecurities at this point.
<<<

Well, Wanda does say "I do not know what path to take now, I--" and later, "Hee hee... Is fighting the crime always this fun?" which sounds like pre-Avengers to me.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

28 Aug 2007 12:39 pm 
By metaldragon

Professor X tells the X-Men "I will take the jet and arrive as soon as possible." in XFC2 3. This is probably the thought-controlled one from UX 1 and not the new STOL jet introduced in UX 20 (which he bought before UX 14 but hadn't used until then). That would place the BTS purchase of the STOL jet between XFC2 3 and UX 14. I imagine picking the X-Men up from Monster Island was very tricky and rather hard on the jet, which made him decide to buy the STOL one."May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

28 Aug 2007 02:06 pm 
By Starman

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
Has it ever been revealed in any source, comic or handbook, how Mastermind was restored to human form? Did it wear off? Did Factor 3 do it?
<<<

In Uncanny X-Men #37, on page 15, Mastermind says: 

"It was not actually you - but the infernal Stranger from space - who defeated me, by turning me into stone! But, his spell was not a permanent one - and, when I revived, I quickly sought out other evil mutants like myself!"

- Stefan

"Pub, ah yes. A meeting place where people attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf

			*	*	*

29 Aug 2007 12:37 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

I think two of the strongest bits of placement evidence are: 

Somebody wrote:
>>>
After all, Jean's flashback in the backup is already "the other day" after the Monster Island thing. AND, in X:FC 7, Bobby says "the Professor promised to be rid of it [Mastermind statue] by now". And when does he promise to get rid of it? X:FC2 3 
<<<

and

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Wanda does say "I do not know what path to take now, I--" and later, "Hee hee... Is fighting the crime always this fun?" which sounds like pre-Avengers to me.
<<<

X: FC 7 & X: FC2 3/2 are in-between stories for the Scarlet Witch, and the 'promise to get rid of Mastermind' bit shows an internal chronology, something that Parker has hinted at in the past. Now we're seeing what he was talking about, in that the series jumps around a bit. It seems to me that the intended reading order is: 

X:FC2 2 
X:FC2 3 
Mastermind attacks, Xavier promises to get rid of him 
X:FC 7 
Mastermind should be gone by now, Scarlet Witch 'not an evil mutant' 
X:FC2 3/2-FB 
X:FC2 3/2 
Scarlet Witch deciding what to do next 

The Brotherhood of 'Evil' Mutants appear in Uncanny 11, that's where Mastermind in transformed, and Scarlet Witch's next appearance is Marvel Heroes & Legends/Earth's Mightiest Heroes, where she & Quicksilver are approached to join the Avengers. I'd like to stick her X: FC appearances after the Avengers offer... but I'm not sure how much time passes between the offer & acceptance.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

29 Aug 2007 02:16 am 
By metaldragon

Sorry to harp on this but I still disagree with the placement of UX 7 after UX2 2 & 3. The scene in question that's bothering me is the one Somebody mentioned as evidence for placement: 

(They're talking about the disbanding of the Brotherhood and the Stranger) 

Scott: Yea, that got him some points from me. Especially when he petrified the Mastermind. 

Jean: Speaking of, how long is the Professor going to keep this Jason Wyndgarde paperweight around the mansion? 

Bobby: Yea, he promised to get rid of it by now! Creeps me out, eyes all following me around... 

(Then someone off panel (Jean or Bobby?) suggests Pietro and Wanda might have something to do with Angel's disappearance.) 

I just don't believe they'd be that casual around Mastermind in this scene after they had been manipulated by him like they were in XFC2 2 & 3. Would the Professor really leave him just standing in the hallway after that either, especially when he has to keep Mastermind's abilities constantly in check with his own powers? In XFC2 3 Mastermind told them he was actually getting stronger in that state. 

I think it's because Bobby refers to the petrified Mastermind as "it" [edit: and Jean "this Jason Wyndgarde paperweight"] that's bothering me. If I found out that what I thought was a statue was actually conscious and observing me, I would not be able to call him "it" anymore after that. 

No, I believe this scene is Mastermind still learning how to use his powers in that state and a tantalizing hint of what was in store for them in XFC2 2-3.

Last edited by metaldragon on 06 Sep 2007 02:12 pm, edited 2 times in total. 

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

06 Sep 2007 09:16 am 
By Somebody
Director

And we have our first First Class reference - New Warriors #4 has Night Thrasher run through a brief slideshow, one of which is the original X-Men in their X:FC costumes.

			*	*	*

Thread 4

Subject: Venus and Namorita

04 Jul 2007 10:58 am 
By Somebody
Director

Couple of questions: 

How many post-Golden/Atlas Age appearances of Venus/Aphrodite revolve in some way around her being an ACTUAL Olympian (recognised as such by someone who would know, like Hercules; or being present on Olympus, or something like that)? 

Has Namorita ever been given an age (e.g., celebrating a certain birthday, or remarks made to/about her that narrow her age down)?

			*	*	*

04 Jul 2007 11:14 am 
By wolframbane

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Has Namorita ever been given an age (e.g., celebrating a certain birthday, or remarks made to/about her that narrow her age down)?
<<<

From marvel.com:
>>>
Namorita was born in 1958 to Namora, half-human cousin of Atlantis's Prince Namor.
<<<

Last edited by wolframbane on 04 Jul 2007 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total. 

			*	*	*

04 Jul 2007 11:18 am 
By wolframbane

Somebody wrote:
>>>
How many post-Golden/Atlas Age appearances of Venus/Aphrodite revolve in some way around her being an ACTUAL Olympian (recognised as such by someone who would know, like Hercules; or being present on Olympus, or something like that)?
<<<

This link has a god breakdown of events:http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/venusaph.htm

			*	*	*

04 Jul 2007 11:44 am 
By Enda80

I refer you to New Warriors Annual#1 (part of the Kings of Pain x-over), which had an origin of Namorita feature, Saga of the Sub-Mariner#10 or #11 or #12 which had a fb to Namorita's past, and Namor I#20 (by John Byrne) which details Namorita's past as cloned embryo. 

In the 1950's Namor attempted to gain recognition for Atlantis, only for bigots to cause the death of a man named Truffaut. Namor disappeared in 1958 after Destiny attacked Atlantis. By 1961, Krang had contacted the scientist Vyrra to create Mako. Namora subsequently aided the Monster Hunters on a mission. 

At some point, Namora had a clone of herself called Namorita, with the help of Vyrra. Namora, her spouse Talan, and Namorita went to live in Maritanis, a northern outpost of Atlantis. Sadly nuclear testing by surface dwellers when Namorita was three years old affected Maritanis, killing Talan. Namorita and Namora when to live in Lemuria, where they encountered Llyra, who seems to have slain Namora.

			*	*	*

04 Jul 2007 12:08 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
How many post-Golden/Atlas Age appearances of Venus/Aphrodite revolve in some way around her being an ACTUAL Olympian (recognised as such by someone who would know, like Hercules; or being present on Olympus, or something like that)?
<<<

This link has a god breakdown of events:http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/venusaph.htm
<<<

[rant]You know, I grow a little weary of random links to the Appendix, every time someone mentions a character. You realize that the Appendix counts times when someone impersonates Venus as a behind-the-scenes appearance (which is certainly their right). Furthermore, I really don't find much on that page which answers the specific question that Somebody asked. 

The Appendix is perhaps the most valuable resource on the Internet to the Marvel Universe, but sometimes it seems that some posters (not naming names) exist solely to provide links on other sites to the Appendix.[/rant] 

And thanks for your your post, John. That may or may not have answered his question, either, but I found it interesting. 


watching: monk

Last edited by Administrator on 04 Jul 2007 04:44 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

04 Jul 2007 04:25 pm 
By Enda80

I didn't post anything about the Appendix. I referred him to those origin issues of Namorita so if he ever has his hands on them, he can check primary sources for info that may answer his question. 

Namorita's birth taking place in 1958 does get corroborated by the Women 2005 Handbook.

			*	*	*

04 Jul 2007 04:43 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks, John. I'll fix it.

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

04 Jul 2007 05:04 pm 
By Enda80

I checked Saga of the Sub-Mariner due to this topic, and it occured to me that Krang appears in a fb in #10 that fleshes out his role in the attack on MacKenzie's ship from Namor's origin. 

KRANG [ATLANTEAN] 
SAGASM 1-FB~SAGASM 10-FB 
SAGASM 5-FB 
M/:LG 3 
{FF@ 1} 
DD 7 
TTA 70 
TTA 71 
TTA 72 
TTA 73

			*	*	*

04 Jul 2007 09:07 pm 
By metaldragon

Venus is acknowledged as THE Venus, goddess of love, by Hercules and a bunch of other Olympians in The Champions 1-3. Some Amazons even recognize her in her "mortal" Victoria Starr guise.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

04 Jul 2007 09:19 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Speaking of "Saga and the Sub-Mariner" and Namorita... 

Saga #9-10 retell the events of Super-Villain Team-Up #1-3, only they identify Namorita as being one of the "random Atlanteans" that were only shown in outline in the SVTU issues. I'm thinking she should get a BTS for those issues, with our handy new "cf" listing pointing the curious to Saga #9-10. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

05 Jul 2007 09:21 am 
By Arthur
Director

KRANG [ATLANTEAN] 
SAGASM 1-FB~SAGASM 10-FB 

I believe when two flashbacks show the same event we only list the first.

			*	*	*

08 Sep 2007 11:50 am 
By Enda80

SAGASM 1-FB-BTS~SAGASM 10-FB 
Krang is not seen on panel in #1, only referred to in narration by Namor.

			*	*	*

08 Sep 2007 03:22 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

If that's the case, then the actual appearance in SAGASM 10 would trump the behind-the-scenes appearance in SAGASM 1, and only issue 10 would be listed. 


watching: michigan vs oregon

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

Thread 5

Subject: m/tu@ 1

08 Sep 2007 11:35 am 
By TheDeuce

in members of the x-men's chronologys m/tu@ 1 takes place in between ux 101. i don't see how this is possible while jean is in the hospital and in the team-up annual, as well as m/tu 53. i don't have the comics on me here and i don't have the internet at home otherwise i'd try to figure out what needs to be moved around and where it needs to go for it all to make sense. 

i hope this is the right place to mention something like this!

			*	*	*

08 Sep 2007 01:58 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Hi, Deuce. This placement was actually Marvel's, published years and years ago in the Official Index to the X-Men. Basically, there IS no good place to put that Team-Up Annual -- so the folks at Marvel decided that Jean "got better and left the hospital" off-panel, the X-Men appeared in the Annual, and then Jean "relapsed and went back to the hospital" off-panel ... where we see her again in the second half of Uncanny #101. 

I know, I know. Annoying -- but whatcha gonna do? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

09 Sep 2007 04:07 pm 
By Jason Doty

Didn't someone suggest an alternate placement sometime back and it was rejected because there was no evidence that it couldn't have happened were the Official Index placed it?

			*	*	*

09 Sep 2007 07:23 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I don't remember the specific incident, but yes, that sounds like our policy. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Subject: Mephisto and Diablo in Fantastic Force#18 fb

10 Sep 2007 08:20 pm 
By Enda80

http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... p07uw1.jpg 

The bottom left panel, the entity proclaimed itself Mephisto.

			*	*	*

10 Sep 2007 09:07 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

To paraphrase Sheryl Crow, 

"Apropos of nothing, he said his name was Mephisto, but I'm sure it must be Bill or Billy or Mac or Buddy..."

Paul B.

			*	*	*

11 Sep 2007 08:15 pm 
By Enda80

DIABLO II/ESTEBAN DE ABLO 
**FFOR 18-FB 
FF3 35-FB 
FF3 36-FB 
XM:ASD-FB 

MEPHISTO 
GR2 77-FB 
**FFOR 18-FB 
MG:I 1-FB 

The GR2 77-FB took place 2000 years ago per Mephisto's official Handbook entry. Diablo was born about 900-1000 years ago. Therefore the FFOR 18-FB takes places in between that and Mortigan Goth fbs, which take place in 1334. 

The placing of Centurious' first battle with Zarathos 
was set as 2000 years ago in Ghost Rider's entry in 
the original Handbook, in the Book of the Dead and 
Inactive. This was reiterated in Mephisto's Deluxe 
Edition entry (Johnny Blaze's entry in the Deluxe 
Edition does not mention it). The Ghost Rider entry 
also places Zaratho's imprisonment as beneath what is 
today Southwestern North America or the US. If it is 
the former, then that could mean he was imprisoned 
under Mexio or Central America. 

When Nightmare narrated Zarathos' backstory to him 
(Mephisto erased Zarathos' memories) in Ghost Rider 
II#76-77, Nightmare seemed to leave it vague when it 
took place, and the only concrete clue given was that 
Zarathos was imprisoned in the stone that K'nutu found 
him in during "antediluvian" times. While this would 
set the story as at least after the Great Cataclysm, I 
suppose the handbook writers decided that having it 
take place during the Hyborian Age or a similar time 
would be a bit incongrous, since having Mephisto 
mentioning Satan (as he does in the flasback) around 
much before the spread of Islam or Christianity would 
be a bit odd. So they set it as 2000 years ago. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_america

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Subject: New feature for the chronologies

11 Sep 2007 08:45 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks to a lot of coding (and a sleepless weekend) from former Director Lee Seitz, we're introducing a new feature to the listings. You can collapse (and from there, expand) the listings, either all at once, or one character at a time. This should make it easier to scroll through the characters. 

It also gives the pages a sleeker design. 

Take a bow, Lee! 


watching: heroes

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

11 Sep 2007 10:57 pm 
By cweed4

VERY NICE

			*	*	*

12 Sep 2007 07:37 am 
By lkseitz

Thanks, Russ. I hope everyone else likes it as much as Russ did when I sent him a prototype. It's just one of those interesting ideas I had in the shower one morning. I know I'm going to find it useful. Please keep in mind you must have JavaScript enabled for it to work. 

This change probably isn't flawless. I encountered an unexpected problem or two while developing it, but believe I've fixed them. If you find any bugs or weirdness, please report it in the Bug Reports forum. In particular, there might be internal links that don't work or don't quite take you to the right place. Thanks again, Russ, for giving me the opportunity to contribute this.

Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

12 Sep 2007 11:12 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Great job!

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

14 Sep 2007 05:37 am 
By JLH

Looks excellent. 

I notice one bug so far: I collapsed the M page's listing, but when I tried to expand the listing for Mankiller, it randomly flung me elsewhere on the page. Kinda fun, actually. Whee! Who knew killin' men could be so entertaining?

			*	*	*

14 Sep 2007 07:02 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks. Fixed. 


watching: today


What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Subject: DAMCON 1

14 Sep 2007 11:30 am 
By cweed4

CURRENTLY- 
Spider-man: 
ASM 300 
DAMCON 1 
T 391 
PPTSS 138 

Thor: 
T 390 
AF 61 
T 391 
T 392 

I would suggest that T 391 is a direct follow-up appearance for Spider-man after the last page of ASM 300. Of course, this is just a "better fit" argument. However, in T 391 the first appearance of Thor states something to the effect that he has just returned to NY. This would require his (unlisted) appearance in DAMCON 1 to occur after this issue. This minor change would not affect any othe character listings from DAMCON 1 (She-Hulk, Dr. Druid, Black Knight V, Thunderball, Doc Ock, Jarvis) or T 391. 

SUGGESTED- 
Spider-man: 
ASM 300 
T 391
DAMCON 1 
PPTSS 138 

Thor: 
T 390 
AF 61 
T 391 
DAMCON 1 
T 392

			*	*	*

Thread 9

Subject: Earth A doubles from She-Hulk 21

06 Sep 2007 05:33 pm 
By Leoparis

Dan Slott creates an explanation for continuity discrepancies in his last she-hulk story. 
Does someone know which stories he referred to? And which character appearance can be attributed to Earth A? (apart from She-Hulk sleeping with Juggernaut)

			*	*	*

06 Sep 2007 05:43 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Basically? I think I'm right in saying "nothing not explicitly established as such." 

[Except everyone who guest-starred in Nextwave ] NB: Joke. Mostly

			*	*	*

06 Sep 2007 08:41 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

This issue establishes that another Earth has an interdimensional vacation business, where people from Earth A(that Earth) can come over here and align their molecules with their counterpart on Earth B(Earth-616) and be super heroes or super villains for their vacation. According to the rules, under no circumstances can they change their costumes or break character. 

Every so often, we've seen these folks appearing in our universe, but the details don't quite match up, or they're where they can't be, given other events. 

This issue explicitly states that She-Hulk Alpha(other Earth) was the She-Hulk seen in those Uncanny issues, and she's the one that slept with Juggernaut. She appears again in this issue, verifying that she did, in fact, sleep with Juggernaut. 

There's a bunch of characters seen in this issue from Earth A, some of which interact with their Earth B counterparts. 

Earth A Asgardian & Hulkling signed up for the Initiative, and the Earth B Asgardian & Hulkling aren't happy about it.(they seemed surprised by it, suggesting it's not 'our' Asgardian & Hulkling appearing in early issues of Avengers: the Initiative) 

A Monica Rambeau, dressed in Nextwave attire, is being sent back to Earth A, but I don't think this invalidates Nextwave. If she came over here on vacation,(to visit her 'still alive parents' which could mean her dad is still alive here, possibly not her mom, but both are dead on Earth A) she'd have to come over in a fashion that she wouldn't look out of place. Therefore Nextwave 'happened' in 616, or else she'd be blatantly out of place. 

Before anyone suggests that anomolous character appearances(like Slyde or whatever) can be attributed to vacationing Earth A folks, I'd like to see it verified in a comic before resorting to that... it feels like assuming it's an LMD or something, with no evidence from the stories. I'm sure, though, a future Handbook will do that for us. 

In any event, this issue takes place FF 549, thanks to a reference by Titania. 

Great issue, by the way!

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

08 Sep 2007 09:40 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Okay, second-hand and so not proof, but as an indicator of actual authorial intent: http://forum.newsarama.com/showpost.php ... stcount=33 

Am I the only one who finds the idea that Slott felt to explain away a mention that Monica's parents were dead by claiming it's an alternate whose parents were dead rather than... say... her parents, y'know, having died since we last saw them... inherently amusing? 

Oh, and, how do Hulkling and Wiccan have counterparts on a basically-no-powers Earth? 

Hulkling's a half-Kree, half-Skrull full-alien, whose conception was intimately (no pun intended) tied in with the Avengers and Kree/Skrull War. 

Wiccan's the mystically-^&*$ed with child of Scarlet Witch and Vision (a pseudo-robot), concieved only through a whole coven's worth of magic.

			*	*	*

14 Sep 2007 08:52 am 
By Leoparis

OK, so the Monica Rambeau comment was supposed to explain the discrepancy in Nextwave. 
We see Egghead, Jack of Hearts, White Tiger and Hammer and Anvil (who are dead). Was there an appearance of these after they died or is it just Slott putting in dead characters to make the point of his story? 
What about Armadillo? Did he die? Why is he on this page? 
What about Scorpion, Ms Marvel, 3D Man and Scarlet Witch? Is the 3D Man related to the use of the character in Busiek's The Avengers? Another use I don't know about? 
Captain Ultra's appearance is explained within: he was cured in a Marvel Comics Presents appearance of his pyrophobia. 
Are the Dazzler, Beast, Wrecker, Dr. Strange appearance referring to known out-of-continuity appearances?

			*	*	*

15 Sep 2007 08:22 pm 
By Mikhail

Armadillo has recently appeared as a member of the Rangers in the Initiative, was a down-on-his-luck wrestler and minion in MODOK's 11, and (I think) was poisoned and blown up in Punisher War Journal. An Armadillo-A would be helpful. 

I think the Dazzler-A is a reference to her appearance in old disco gear several years ago in Deadpool #67. 

Can't think of a specific reference for any of the others.

			*	*	*

15 Sep 2007 08:32 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Mikhail wrote:
>>>
Armadillo has recently appeared as a member of the Rangers in the Initiative, was a down-on-his-luck wrestler and minion in MODOK's 11, and (I think) was poisoned and blown up in Punisher War Journal. An Armadillo-A would be helpful.
<<<

MODOK's 11 makes specific reference to him "washing out of the Rangers".

Given that not a single one of the P:WJ2 4 deaths has stuck though, they could all be doubles, from Earth-A, or Genis' fault, or whatever though.


Mikhail wrote:
>>>
I think the Dazzler-A is a reference to her appearance in old disco gear several years ago in Deadpool #67.
<<<

Ummm... she was still using the disco gear as recently as New Excalibur #1 (albeit with a wig). Why the hell would you need to "explain" that?! [And retcon that issue, you die].

			*	*	*

15 Sep 2007 10:32 pm 
By Mikhail

As far as I know, DP #67 is the only appearance of Dazzler between her return to Earth in UXM #392 after years of being a hardcore revolutionary in the Mojoverse, and the start of New Excalibur. If it was MEANT to be a reference to anything, it was that.

			*	*	*

16 Sep 2007 06:08 am 
By Enda80

Earth-A was implied to have seen destruction in an issue of Fantastic Force, but of course due to the constant divergence of timelines, I am guessing that represents the end of a similar dimension. 

Slott by the way seems to have read the Larry Niven story All the Myriad Ways, which was adapted for one of the black and white magazines Unknown Worlds of Science Fiction. 
http://www.bundy223.net/~andyb/prose/myriad.html

			*	*	*

Thread 10

Subject: The Stoneridge incident

16 Sep 2007 04:39 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

H3 110 shows a couple of flashback panels on page 9 to an incident in which the Hulk tore into a town called Stoneridge, NM. In what issue did that event occur, and do the panels in H3 110 show anything new?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

16 Sep 2007 05:03 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I'm pretty sure that came from the tail-end of the Byrne/Milgrom "Bannerless Hulk", so some time in the late 310s or early 320s of Incredible Hulk, if anyone has the issues handy to check.

			*	*	*

17 Sep 2007 12:34 am 
By jannepie

I don't have the issue, but I found #316 mentioned elsewhere in the Internets. Can someone confirm this?

			*	*	*

17 Sep 2007 07:04 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yup, that's it. Hulk and Doc Samson (in shredded original costume) appear in H3 110-FB between H2 315 (when Samson's original costume gets shredded) and 316 (when Samson reappears w/his new costume). Thanks, guys. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Subject: Captain America: The Chosen

16 Sep 2007 04:42 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Has anyone heard anything about the canonicity and likely placement of CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE CHOSEN? Hard to tell what's going on from issue #1 alone.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

16 Sep 2007 04:45 pm 
By JD

Interviews seemed to indicate that this was originally a CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE END project, but that they changed the title because it could be confusing. Probably non-canon, then.

			*	*	*

16 Sep 2007 05:05 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Indeed. Non-canon.

			*	*	*

16 Sep 2007 07:50 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

I'm of the opinion that it's "still too early to tell" but has it been officially declared non-canon in an interview or something?

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

16 Sep 2007 08:37 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

From Newsarama: 

Marvel wrote:
>>>
After the shocking final page of Captain America: The Chosen #1, things are about to take an even more unexpected turn as we learn the truth about Captain Americas final days! 
<<<

I can't find the original interview I read, but this sounds like a The End project to me. If I remember right, they had to change the title from Captain America: The End because, well, Cap's last story has already been told in issue 25 of his own title. 

On the other hand, though, it seems like they've stopped using 'The End' just going by Spider-Man: Reign & Silver Surfer: Requiem, both of which were 'The End' type stories. 

In any case, the back of Nick Fury's head makes an appearance in #1, which makes me happy.Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

17 Sep 2007 06:28 am 
By Somebody
Director

Plus, Marvel Knights book. Post-Daredevil MK is an Elseworlds imprint. 

[PS: Fury, you missed "Last Fantastic Four story" and the upcoming "Daredevil: End of Days" ]

			*	*	*

18 Sep 2007 06:52 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Well, they got me. If they put a "THE END" imprint on this series, I wouldn't have touched it. With my wallet straining to keep up with canonical stories, I think I'll skip the rest of THE CHOSEN. 

Thanks for the feedback, folks.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 12

Subject: ASM 304

18 Sep 2007 09:18 am 
By cweed4

In PPTSS 142 Tombstone refers to Peter's appearance tour for "Webs". However, Peter doesn't learn about this book from JJJ until a meeting in the first half of ASM 304. The issue has a "days later" caption after that meeting. This would suggest a split entry for the issue in Peter's chronology and change in JJJ's. No change for any other characters.

Spidey:
ASM 303
ASM 304 (1-9)
PPTSS 139
PPTSS 140
PPTSS 141
PPTSS 142
WOSM 40
WOSM 41
WOSM 42
WOSM 43
H2 346
IM 234
ASM@ 22
ASM 304 (10-22)
ASM 305

JJJ:
ASM 303
ASM 304
PPTSS 139
PPTSS 140
PPTSS 142
H2 346
ASM@ 22
***** (ASM 304 removed)
PP 40

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Subject: Spider-Man FCBD 2007

23 May 2007 06:40 am 
By lkseitz

Free Comic Book Day has come and gone and I've seen no discussion on whether the Spider-Man story by Dan Slott could be in continuity or not. Anyone want to venture an opinion? I was thinking it could probably be wedged in somewhere until it was made obvious who Jackpot was supposed to be. Of course, since it wasn't explicitly stated, it doesn't really matter for MCP purposes. What do y'all think?

Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

23 May 2007 07:34 am 
By PopularLoser

I don't really see why it can't be canon, pre-Civil War. Of course I'm no expert on Spidey. But that's my thought.

[Insert Witty Remark Here]

			*	*	*

23 May 2007 08:10 am 
By Somebody
Director

It's either post-One More Day, or it's non-canon. Which one will have to wait, for obvious reasons, and there's no point in analysis until then. 

Loser - there's Registration stuff in the book, isn't there?

			*	*	*

23 May 2007 12:11 pm 
By jephyork
Director

No, there isn't. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

23 May 2007 11:50 pm 
By PopularLoser

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Loser - there's Registration stuff in the book, isn't there?
<<<

Not any that I could see. Nobody calls Spider-Man Peter Parker. Nobody's out to arrest Spider-Man except for one gung-ho cop who's held back by his partner. This leads to a discussion/argument between the two cops that sounds like many of the various conversations that proliferated in Marvel books leading up to Civil War. I suppose, depending on where things are after One More Day, placement for this will be more clear, but as it stands right now I don't see why this can't be pre-Civil War.

[Insert Witty Remark Here]

			*	*	*

24 May 2007 07:52 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Stephen Wacker, the incoming Spider-Man editor, was asked about this at Newsarama last week:- 

>>>
Q: Is 'Swing Shift' in continuity? ...

A: The comic? Fans are smarter than me sometimes because I'm not sure how it could fit into continuity. Now that people are talking about it so much, it'd be interesting to see how much of it we could use.
<<<

That's not absolutely unequivocal, but it's getting there. Unless something actually happens to clearly bring the book into continuity, I'd assume that it's non-canon.

-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

24 May 2007 08:07 am 
By Somebody
Director

Well, the same guy said something similar, but not quite the same, a fortnight earlier as an insert to Joe Q's column: 


Steve Wacker, via Joe Quesada, via http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/ ... ays46.html wrote:
>>>
Steve Wacker: Close, but no cigar, Cheese. The FCBD story doesn't take place in current continuity. We were trying to create a timeless kind of adventure that anyone coming out of the new movie could pick up and feel like they got a full Spidey adventure.

However, we did drop a couple hints (like the drop-dead gorgeous Jackpot) of new characters that may be picked up on by the new (and as yet unannounced) Amazing Spider-Man creative team. Dan and Phil were both anxious to play along and help. Luckily their schedules worked out and we couldn't be happier to snag them for Free Comic Book Day.

As for who's following Joe and Joe on Amazing... Here's a clue: My initials.
<<<

I'm just looking at the word "current" there, which seems extraneous except as a hint. 

And last time I saw a phrase coming from someone at Marvel along the lines of that "trying to create a timeless kind of adventure", it referred to the Fantastic Four Special a couple of years ago. Which was a cover for the fact that it was fairly narrowly placed between comics which were then yet to be published, but which were planned and scheduled by that point (specifically Fantastic Four #537 and Civil War #1, where the FFSpecial was published between FF533 and 534).

			*	*	*

24 May 2007 10:59 am 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
I'm not sure how it could fit into continuity.
<<<

Paul, there are two interpretations of this quote: one is, "I'm not sure how it could fit ANYWHERE in Spider-Man's continuity, given its blatant discrepancies", and the other is "I'm not sure how it could fit into Spider-Man's CURRENT continuity, given its blatant discrepancies". 

Since the former is clearly untrue, and the latter clearly IS true, Wacker obviously means the latter. 

He's merely observing that it can't possibly be current -- which means that he's not saying AT ALL that it's "non-canon". 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

24 May 2007 12:56 pm 
By Paul O'Brien
Director

I'm not sure I agree that that sentence can be read as meaning only current continuity - if it fits in the past, then it fits into continuity. But it could be construed as deliberately falling short of making an outright statement of fact.

-- Paul O'Brien

			*	*	*

24 May 2007 04:14 pm 
By jephyork
Director

If he meant "any continuity at all", and he *legitimately* is stumped and has NO idea how this could fit ANYWHERE into ANY of Spidey's continuity -- then he's not very knowledgeable about the comics he edits, is he? 

Either he's completely stumped as to how this simple tale could possibly fit anywhere into 40+ years of Spidey comics featuring the exact same status quo as the tale itself, or he meant "current continuity". 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

27 May 2007 08:58 am 
By Crazy Penguin

I think they're purposely being vague about it. Looking into my crystal ball I predict... 

1. One More Day will magically warp continuity, unmarry Spider-Man and undo his unmasking. 
2. Dan Slott will be the new writer of Amazing Spider-Man. 
3. The FCBD issue will take place some time after One More Day. 

100% pure speculation that's of no relevance to the Chronology Project, but I'll put 5 bucks on it.

			*	*	*

12 Jun 2007 09:49 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I don't think this horse is beaten yet, so I thought I'd revive this thread before the onslaught of new comics tomorrow (with First Class next on my list of backlogged puzzlers). 

It looks like the door is still open to Amazing Spider-Man: Swing Shift being canonical (pre-CW), so let's take a look at the cast of characters here to see what we can figure out. 

Spider-Man -- in classic costume; hasn't seen action for "three whole weeks;" could be living with Aunt May, but not necessarily 

May Parker -- it's her birthday; living in her Forest Hills home ("Ingram Street?"); she thinks Peter "still hasn't grown up," so is it before she learned Peter's secret ID?? 

Mary Jane Watson-Parker -- not present and no reference to her; could be away on a modeling job; perhaps during the time she and Peter were separated? 

J. Jonah Jameson -- eager to get a story on the menace known as Spider-Man (not much help) 

Joe Robertson -- working at the Bugle (ditto) 

Betty Brant -- working at the Bugle (ditto) 

Jackpot -- a never-before-seen super-heroine who looks like Mary Jane and talks like Mary Jane ("tiger") 

"Joe" -- a guy who takes May and her friends out for her birthday and who hasn't met Peter yet (who's this?) 

Overdrive -- new villain, AFAIK 

Then we have the villains gathered at New York's "Bar With No Name" (a popular locale for Marvel writers these days): 

Hydro-Man -- in his recent blue costume with the ring on the chest 

Slyde -- alive, so either before the time he died in W3 26 or the time he died in CW:WC 1  

Kraven -- likely Al Kraven 

Boomerang 

(King) Cobra 

Answer 

Speed Demon -- likely before he joined the T-Bolts 

Big guy in blue and black who's "stronger than a car" (who's this?) 

Question -- I assume that's this kid's moniker, as he dresses like Answer but has a question mark on his chest 

Some Fixer/Mentallo/Paladin-looking guy 

Clown 

Spot -- he, too, was killed in W3 26 but showed up later in CW:WC 1 

"Bookie" 


Does anyone have thoughts on the possible placement of these characters if, indeed, this is canonical? Are there placements that are mutually exclusive?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

13 Jun 2007 07:00 am 
By dimadick

1) "Jackpot -- a never-before-seen super-heroine who looks like Mary Jane and talks like Mary Jane ("tiger")" 

A second Jackpot? What was wrong with the Howard the Duck enemy? See: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/jackpt.htm 

2) "Overdrive -- new villain, AFAIK" 

Any connection to Override/Greg Herd? 

Then we have the villains gathered at New York's "Bar With No Name" (a popular locale for Marvel writers these days): 

3) "Hydro-Man -- in his recent blue costume with the ring on the chest" 

Well, Morris only debuted in "Amazing Spider-Man" #212 (January, 1981) so this would place the story during or after the 1980s. 

4) "Slyde -- alive, so either before the time he died in W3 26 or the time he died in CW:WC 1 Wink" 

Jalome did not debut until "Amazing Spider-Man" #272 (January, 1986) so this book is placed even later in time. 

5) "Kraven -- likely Al Kraven" 

If it was Sergei Kravinoff, the story could be placed between the debut of Slyde in January, 1986 and his own death in "Amazing Spider-Man" #294 (November, 1987). 

Alyosha did not debut until "Spectacular Spider-Man" #243 (February, 1997) and his presence here would place the story anyplace in the last ten years. 

If the story ends up placed between the death of the father and the debut of the son, we could add another appearance for their kin, the Chameleon. 

6) "Boomerang" 

Fred has been arround since facing the Hulk in "Tales to Astonish" #81 (July, 1966). He has had his ups and downs but is otherwise continually active in the last forty years. His appearance is not all that helpful. 

7) "(King) Cobra" 

Klaus is active since facing Thor in "Journey Into Mystery" #98 (November, 1963). Another unhelpful appearance. His colleagues with the Serpent Society are not with him. Perhaps he was looking for some alone time? 

8) "Answer" 

Aaron Nicholson or David Ferrari? 

Aaron debuted in "Spectacular Spider-Man" #91 (June, 1984). The answer was disembodied in #96 (November, 1984). He was reportedly restored to life and body through events occuring in "Excalibur" #50 (May, 1992). 

He was back in action in "Lethal Foes of Spider-Man" #1 (September, 1993). He was incapacitated by Doctor Octopus in #4 (December, 1993). He was next seen escaping from the Raft in "New Avengers" #1-4 (January - April, 2005). Current assumption has him being a jailbird for those twelve years. 

David Ferrari used the Answer identity in "Captain America" vol. 3 #42-43 (June - July, 2001). He has not appeared since. 

If this is Aaron, the appearance of Slyde prevents this tale happening during his first period of activity. Placing the tale between 1992 and today. Whether Aaron had activities between his defeat by Doc Ock and his escape from the Raft is anyone's guess. If not his precence here places the story after the Raft escape. 

If this is David, the tale is placed anytime between his last encounter with Captain America. Anytime between 2001 and current stories that is. 

9) "Speed Demon -- likely before he joined the T-Bolts" 

James has been active since his debut with the Squadron Sinister in "Avengers" #69 (October, 1969). He joined the Thunderbolts cast in "New Thunderbolts" #2 (January, 2005). 

The assumption would place this story between the revival of Answer/Aaron Nicholson in 1992 and Speedy joining the Thunderbolts in 2005. A span of thirteen years. 

10) "Clown" 

Eliot Franklin of the Circus of Crime I presume. He first appeared in "Amazing Spider-Man" #22 (March, 1965). He was last seen with his Circus associates in "Incredible Hulk" vol. 2 #470-471 (November, December, 1998). He has since gone solo as a "professional assassin" and adopted a darker persona. Any of this indicated here? 

11) "Spot -- he, too, was killed in W3 26 but showed up later in CW:WC 1" 

Even better actually. Jonathan Ohnn appeared as a model prisoner about to be released in "Spider-Man Tangled Web" #16 (September, 2002). He used his freedom to help fellow prisoner Tombstone to escape in #17 (October, 2002). Tombstone rewarded him by breaking his neck and commenting on how he missed "killing people" while being in prison. 

Then he turned inexplicably alive in "Wolverine" vol. 3 #24 - 26 (March - May, 2005). He was killed again and returned for "Civil Wars: War Crimes" #1. 

He is supposed to be a teleporter, not an immortal! 

Anyway, back to the question at hand. He first appeared in "Spectacular Spider-Man" #98 (January, 1985). He decided to retire in #99 (February, 1985). Impossible for the story to be placed here because of the appearance of Slyde and Answer with a corporeal body. 

He appears attending another "Bar-With-No-Name" in "Marvel Year-in-Review 1992". He comes out of retirement in "Spectacular Spider-Man" #246 - 247 (April - May, 1997). He keeps appearing in the last ten years despite two recorded deaths. 

His presence here places the story between his return to action in 1997 and Speed Deamon joining the Thunderbolts in 2005. 

Any dialogue that allows a more specific placement?

			*	*	*

15 Jun 2007 06:47 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the input, dimadick. 

I was not aware of Jackpot, not having been a Howard fan. Good to know. 

To answer your questions: 

There are no clues about the Clown's status. He has no dialogue. 

No dialogue sheds any light on the Spot either. 

However, given Hydro-Man's costume, it would appear this story occurs in the fairly recent past. I'd have to check to see when that costume first appears.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

17 Jun 2007 09:33 am 
By lkseitz

dimadick wrote:
>>>
1) "Jackpot -- a never-before-seen super-heroine who looks like Mary Jane and talks like Mary Jane ("tiger")"

A second Jackpot? What was wrong with the Howard the Duck enemy? See: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/jackpt.htm
<<<

First, this one's a good guy instead of a bad guy. Second, from my heterosexual male perspective, she's much better looking. 

Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

17 Jun 2007 04:28 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I've analyzed the story with respect to the chronologies of Spidey (and the missing M.J.), Aunt May, Hydro-Man, and Slyde and came up with the following placenent for Swing Shift -- June 25 of Year 22 on the Calendar. Here's how things look for these characters around that time, with even a little Al Kraven thrown in: 

Sunday, June 1 
FANTASTIC FOUR #512 (11-18) 
The "warm day" after FF 512 (1-10). Spidey and Johnny battle Hydro-Man at a water park during its "opening weekend." We see green trees and outdoor water fun. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #513 
The same "brutally hot day" as FF 512 (11-18). Spidey and Johnny defeat Hydro-Man, who gets away with the Wizards assistance. We see green trees at the water park. 
GET KRAVEN #6 (20-24) 
One day, "six months" after GK 6 (19). Al Kraven and the Vulture do some superheroing by helping an old couple from being assaulted. Spider-Man talks to Tymby who tells him they've been at it for "three months." 

Monday, June 2 
SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED v2 #1/2 
One day. This story probably occurs before ASM:SS 1; I have this as Spideys last public battle three whole weeks before ASM:SS 1. In a new black costume, Slyde, undergoing a mid-life crisis at "forty," takes on Spidey just for the sake of doing it. Spidey beats him. 

Tuesday, June 3 
SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED v2 #2 
One school day. "Tomorrow" is noted as being another school day, and the test that Peter has corrected was given after a 
"weekend," likely on a Monday. He comments that a student has gone from Ds to an A "in one semester," a clue that this may be the end of a semester. Spidey nearly loses a bunch of corrected chemistry exams when he saves a man who falls off a building. Peter is shown teaching at "P.S. 108," not Midtown High (an error?). Green grass in New York. 

Wednesday, June 5 
TARGET PRESENTS: READING TO THE RESCUE! #1 
One school day. This story likely occurs between X 141 and 142 and after ASM 504 (19-22). A group of school kids (including 
Sharon, Russ, and Austin) on a field trip to a fairgrounds defeats a villain by reading Loki's spells. Among the heroes present 
are: Captain America, Spider-Man, Thor (in classic costume), and Jean Grey (in Morrison-era outfit and manifesting the Phoenix 
raptor). The narrative incorrectly identifies Mary Jane as Peter Parker's "girlfriend," not wife. 

Sunday, June 22 
[these entries moved from their placement in the posted calendar] 
FANTASTIC FOUR #514 
One day. The Wizard assembles a new Frightful Four, featuring Hydro-Man (in a new costume that Wizard apparently made for him) and Salamandra, whose 19-year-old daughter Cole befriends Johnny as a way to provide the villains access to the FF's headquarters. Wizard is revealed as Cole's father. Green trees in New York. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #515 
The same day as FF 514. The Frightful Four defeat the FF and the Wizard broadcasts his humiliation of the heroes on TV. Cole rebels against her father and when the FF find her, they offer to help her deal with her power. It appears to be warm in New York. Full moon. 
FANTASTIC FOUR #516 
The same night as FF 515. This story probably occurs before ASM:SS 1 and M/KSM 6 (4-23). The FF and Cole invade the Wizard's headquarters and in the ensuing battle, Cole increases her mass to crash the villains into the harbor, where they all disappear. Full moon. 

Monday, June 23 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #505 (1-9) 
One day. Peter sees M.J. off at the airport. She's off to an acting gig in California, and this is the first time she and Peter have had to say goodbye since her return to New York. After arriving in California, M.J. fails to get the job. Green trees in New York. 

Tuesday, June 24 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #505 (10-21) 
The early morning after ASM 505 (1-9). Spidey talks a kid with a gun into surrendering to police. M.J. calls Peter and tells him she turned down the job. 

Wednesday, June 25 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN: SWING SHIFT #1 
One day. Because Hydro-Man appears in his new costume, this story probably occurs after FF 516. Because Slyde is wearing his new costume, this story probably occurs after ASMU2 1/2. Because May is living in Queens, this story probably occurs before M/KSM 1 (1-9). M.J. does not appear in this story; she may not yet be back from L.A. from ASM 505. Spidey hasnt seen hide nor hair nor tentacle from any of my bad guys in weeks and Spidey hasnt done anything public for three whole weeks. Overdrive pulls a museum heist to get an artifact for a mysterious employer, and Spidey pursues the villain as he gets away. Desperate for a news story about Spidey, Jonah stops the presses to cover the event. TV news coverage of the pursuit is seen by a bunch of villains at the Bar With No Name; they include Hydro-Man, Slyde, Boomerang, Al Kraven, Cobra, Answer, Speed Demon, Clown, and Spot. The villains bet on the outcome. When the pursuit endangers the lives of bystanders, Jackpot arrives to save them. Spidey stops Overdrive, but the adventure causes Spidey to miss a party at a restaurant for Aunt May. When May returns home, she finds Peter asleep on the couch and sees the cake he got for her. She thinks that Peter still hasnt grown up and that he could be more responsible  this seems to imply that May doesnt know that Peter is Spidey, but she may be joking to herself. The reference to May 5th may be topical, as may be the references to Mays birthday; in the latter case, the cake that Peter gets for her and the party held for her may be for another occasion  perhaps her anniversary. Jackets, coats, and long-sleeve shirts in New York. Full moon. 

Spideys chronology then continues with AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #506 (7/8p4-22) on June 29. 

I think this placement actually may work for the other characters portrayed in Swing Shift. Any problems?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

19 Sep 2007 11:49 am 
By cweed4

Looks like the Swing Shift question will be resolved in December: 
http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Dec0 ... tions.html 

Check out the picture w/ Spidey and Jackpot2. Looks like new art for some ASM issue! My initial response after seeing that was to re-think the whole OMD story arc possibilities. The overwhelming assumption seems to be that "One More Day" refers to a last day w/ May. My prediction now would be that such an idea is a red herring and it involves OMD w/ MJ. Somehow, Peter and MJ get OMD together as a married couple before some "Superboy punch"-style continuity restart revives May at the expense of their memories together (and perhaps even his ID reveal). 

I sure hope I'm wrong but, if Swing Shift becomes canon post-OMD there will need to be some explanation for May being ok, Spidey's secret ID restored (apparently), MJ as Jackpot and no personal relationship between her and Peter. (After reading She-Hulk 21 by Dan Slott I am worried though )

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Subject: Westerns

30 Aug 2007 09:18 pm
By Dhall

Westerns need to be added: 

Two-Gun Kid 60-92,103,104 
Rawhide Kid 17-115 
Rawhide Kid v2 1-4 
Kid Colt Outlaw 1-139 
Giant-Size Kid Colt 1-3 
Western Gunfighters v.2 1-7 (new material only) 

There may possibly be other issues of some of these titles that are not reprints.

			*	*	*

30 Aug 2007 11:40 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
Westerns need to be added:
Two-Gun Kid 60-92,103,104
Rawhide Kid 17-115
<<<

I must be missing something here: I don't think Rawhide Kid 1-16 are in the MCP yet...why not list the early issues of these two titles?

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

31 Aug 2007 12:27 am 
By JLH

Two-Gun Kid 60 retconned out the previous 59 issues (save for the ones they reprinted with Matt Hawk in place of Clay Harder). As for Rawhide, I dunno, but I bet it has something to do with the opression of homosexuals.

			*	*	*

31 Aug 2007 06:44 am 
By Dhall

It depends on if the first versions of these characters are canon or not, frankly they could be. There could be a Two-Gun Kid I and II. If there is then the books should be added. Same goes for the Atlas era Rawhide Kid, he could be Rawhide kid I... 

And here's a point, didn't Kid Colt meet the first Two-Gun Kid? I could be wrong about that, but I think I read it somewhere. 

We might as well list Two Gun 1-59, and RK 1-16.

			*	*	*

01 Sep 2007 02:42 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

I'm moving this thread to the Marvel Universe forum for the same reason as the Golden Age thread: there's still some need for discussion about the validity of adding the Western titles to the MCP, (and the Monster titles that are Pre-FF1 as well).

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

01 Sep 2007 07:16 pm 
By Arthur
Director

Dhall wrote 
>>>
And here's a point, didn't Kid Colt meet the first Two-Gun Kid? I could be wrong about that, but I think I read it somewhere
<<<

I don't know about Kid Colt, but Rawhide Kid and Two-Gun hooked up in Rawhide Kid 40 and then again in Two-Gun Kid 85

			*	*	*

08 Sep 2007 04:16 pm 
By Arthur
Director

>>>
didn't Kid Colt meet the first Two-Gun Kid? ...I think I read it somewhere 
<<<

Found it! maybe... In AVF 4, the Avengers drop in on 1873, Tombstone. 
Kid Colt, Two-Gun AND Rawhide are all shown as friends.

			*	*	*

08 Sep 2007 04:42 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Ummm... aren't those Space Phantoms? (a fact which Hawkeye picks up on because one of them should be dead, IIRC).

			*	*	*

08 Sep 2007 05:59 pm 
By Ant-Man

I think that Black Rider, Reno Jones and Kid Cassidy from Avengers Forever were revealed as Space Phantoms.

			*	*	*

23 Sep 2007 10:10 am 
By Arthur
Director

Dhall wrote: 
>>>
didn't Kid Colt meet the first Two-Gun Kid? I could be wrong about that, but I think I read it somewhere. 
<<<

maybe you read it in BP3 46-47 where all three (Colt, Rawhide and Two-gun) are together.

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Subject: One More Day and World War Hulk

16 Sep 2007 04:37 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

So Peter Parker resumes the classic costume in ASM 544, the first chapter in the "One More Day" story arc. That would seem to suggest that this story occurs after all of Peter's appearances in the black costume, including World War Hulk. But wait! Stark/Avengers Tower is seen intact with the Watchtower spires in ASM 544, apparently placing One More Day before World War Hulk. 

So does Peter go back to black after One More Day or does Stark Tower get restored (likely quickly) after World War Hulk? 

Another problem in ASM 544 is that May is noted as having been shot the other day, but so much has to happen between May getting shot (at the end of Civil War) and ASM 544. Things might work better if Spidey appeared in all the "Back In Black" stories in his own books, then in "One More Day," then back in black again in the various Avengers-related books and finally in World War Hulk. May and M.J. are conspicuously absent in recent Avengers stories and WWH. 

Thoughts??

Paul B.

			*	*	*

16 Sep 2007 04:42 pm 
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
 does Stark Tower get restored (likely quickly) after World War Hulk?
<<<

It's the Sentry. Of course the Watchtower will be back to normal !

			*	*	*

16 Sep 2007 05:16 pm 
By Somebody
Director

MJ's been conspicuously absent in FNSM as well. She was just sticking by May's bedside. 

I think "abandon that hope now" is the best advice. Stark Tower II will probably be rebuilt, but if it doesn't you'll just have to squint and pretend it's somewhere else. If we get a reality-altering wave at the end of 1MD, well, we had to take BP out of order c. HoM for a reason. And an upcoming issue of Initiative, which has now gone through WWH, is being advertised as "the last pre-1MD Spider-Man appearance"... 

Fundamentally, we have no idea how much might be altered, but the very least that will happen is an ID-takeback. Over and above that, well, they're trying very hard (to the point that Dan Slott seemed to "slip" in a Newsarama interview by referring to writing a "can't get a date" Spider-Man) to make us think the marraige is gone. Planning chronologies on the basis that "it might not be as bad as we think" is like planning everything around the assumption that Nick Fury will be reinstated as SHIELD head pre-HoM...

			*	*	*

16 Sep 2007 06:01 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

It really seems that JMS didn't want to leave room for anything besides ASM. But, Pete starts wearing the black suit in ASM 539, and is no longer wearing it in ASM 544, meaning all of his black suit appearances has to go between ASM 542 & ASM 543, no matter how much sense it doesn't make. When Pete mentions that May was shot 'the other day', it should read 'the other month.' I mean, we have to fit in the other two Spider-Books, random guest appearances, Death of Captain America, WWH, New Avengers for the past several & next several months, and whatever else I'm forgetting. 

We'll know for sure come November, but I think it would be best to plan that all the black suit appearances go after ASM 542 and before ASM 543. Otherwise, like Somebody suggested with Fury & HoM, we'll most likely have to rebuild everything anyways.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

17 Sep 2007 01:48 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Swing Shift solicited as a pay-for comic: 

>>>
http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Dec07/solicitations.html wrote:
SPIDER-MAN: SWING SHIFT DIRECTOR'S CUT ONE-SHOT
Written by DAN SLOTT
Pencils & Cover by PHIL JIMENEZ
Fan-favorite writer Dan Slott (AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE; SHE HULK) and Superstar Artist Phil Jimenez (NEW X-MEN; Infinite Crisis) bring you a brand new tale of danger and intrigue starring your favorite web-slinger...a tale that has a direct impact on the world of Spidey in Brand New Day. Get a behind-the-curtain look at one of Spideys new creative teams in the special directors cut edition of this swingin adventure!
48 PGS./CARDSTOCK COVER/Rated A $3.99
<<<

Like I said after the "not in current continuity" thing...

			*	*	*

18 Sep 2007 01:21 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Sweet. Now I'll be able to read the dang thing... 

In December.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

20 Sep 2007 05:25 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Anyone know where this is from (I've double-protected it - it's only linked under the spoiler tag - just in case)? It professes to be the BIG OMD spoiler, IF true...

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/473/20070919155607scan0001gd8.jpg

From here, but they don't give a source, ergo the query.

EDIT: Someone at Newsarama's saying it's from CBG: http://forum.newsarama.com/showpost.php ... tcount=188 http://forum.newsarama.com/showpost.php ... tcount=190

			*	*	*

25 Sep 2007 11:19 pm 
By Carl Creel

Hi, I found this on the Newsarama site. Im not sure if its legit but if it is its just another example of how bad the current EIC at Marvel is. It was fun in the old days to figure out how a accidental continuity mishap could fit in but any more its not even worth it. Ive already stopped collecting over half of the books I once did. Ill be down to zero before the year is up at this rate. 

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=192073

			*	*	*

26 Sep 2007 10:58 am 
By Somebody
Director

You'll note that that's one of the links from my post immediately above yours...

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Subject: 2099 odds and ends

25 Sep 2007 08:19 pm 
By michaelyuri

A few loose ends: 

1. So far, I've been unable to get my hands on the 1998 Wizard-published Spider-Man 1/2, which supposedly has appearances of Spider-Man 2099 and Spider-Man 2211. From what I've been able to find online, this is apparently just some sort of dream sequence and not a real appearance. Could someone out there confirm this? 


2. 2099: Manifest Destiny had appearances by a whole slew of characters, including some who had never previously been seen in 2099. I was able to identify most of them, but there are a few that I'm not sure about: 

Flashback p.21-22: I see Captain Britain, Namor, Colossus, Luke Cage, and Nightcrawler. I think that's Daredevil on the far left, and maybe Iron Man on top of the heap of bodies. Who else can be identified in that scene? 

p.26, panel 3: Who are the spotted character and the man and woman on either side of the Thing? Inhumans? 

p.26, panel 5: Who are the two characters in the background? 

p. 27: Who's the guy on the bottom half of the page with the long hair and golden shoulder guards? 

p. 35, panel 4: Who the guy in red and yellow in the background? 

p. 36, panel 2: Who's the green-skinned woman? 

Notes: 
I counted pages starting with the intro page that lists some of the main characters. 
Aside from the flashback, the characters may be 2099 characters, 20th century characters who have survived until 2099, or newly created characters. There are several coloring errors in this book, so colors might not be reliable. 


3. The MCP currently has an entry for Halloween Jack. Halloween Jack/Jordan Boone is primarily a 2099 character who has only had a single 20th century appearance, so his entry in the main marvel universe listings should probably be removed.

			*	*	*

29 Sep 2007 04:29 am 
By Peter Fabricius

P 21-22 
Clearly Daredevil on the left, you can see the horns. And Hercules in chains in front of him. 
I see the others you see, and to me it is clearly Iron Man on top of the heap. In between him and Luke Cage I think it is Thundra. And at the top it looks like Yondu from the Guardians of the Galaxy. 

The rest I don't know. It's been too long since I read any of the 2099 comics.

Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

29 Sep 2007 10:27 am 
By jephyork
Director

I'm confused -- "Manifest Destiny" has flashbacks to the present-day era? 

Could any portion of these flashbacks potentially be canon? It sounds like all the heroes are dead in the FB that's being described, so I'm guessing "no" -- but are there other FBs that could be considered for inclusion? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

30 Sep 2007 08:53 am 
By michaelyuri

No, all of the flashbacks in Manifest Destiny take place after the divergence from 616. The flashbacks describe the end of the Heroic Age, when most of the heroes were killed. The only 616-canon scenes in the 2099 books are time-travel sequences which I described in this thread:
http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... php?t=3361


Peter Fabricius wrote:
>>>
P 21-22
Clearly Daredevil on the left, you can see the horns. And Hercules in chains in front of him.
I see the others you see, and to me it is clearly Iron Man on top of the heap. In between him and Luke Cage I think it is Thundra. And at the top it looks like Yondu from the Guardians of the Galaxy.
<<<

Thanks. Those all make sense. The following entries should be added to the 2099 chronologies: 

*Daredevil/Matt Murdock 
*TNN:MD 1-FB (21-22) 

*Hercules 
*TNN:MD 1-FB (21-22) 

*Thundra 
*TNN:MD 1-FB (21-22) 

*Yondu 
*TNN:MD 1-FB (21-22) 

Note: the Daredevil who is already listed in the 2099 chronology is a new 2099 Daredevil, not Matt Murdock. So his listing should probably be changed to Daredevil II, or something like that. 

-Mike

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Subject: Moon Knight 1-6
Aug 24, 2007 1:11 am 

By Col_Fury
Director

Moon Knight #1 
Pub: June, 2006 

Appearances: 
Moon Knight(Marc Spector), Marlene Alraune-FB, Frenchie(Jean-Paul Duchamp)-FB 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg23 
After having a lot to drink, Moon Knight day-dreams about fighting crime. Then, he crawls around on the floor. 

Pg19-FB 
Moon Knights legs have been crushed! 
Pg20-FB 
Moon Knight yells at Jean-Paul, who has no legs, as he leaves. Marlene cries. 
Pg21-FB 
After Marc signs off on some foreclosure papers, Marlene tries to cheer him up so he slaps her around a bit. 
Pg22-FB 
Depressed, Marc Spector spits on his statue of Khonshu. 

References: 
The FlashBacks lead up to where Moon Knight is now. How long ago they were, and how long is between them, Im not sure. 

Moon Knight #2 
Pub: July, 2006 

Appearances: 
Moon Knight(Marc Spector), Betrand Crawley, Profile, Samuels, Bushman-FB 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: same night as last issue 
Marc Spector rolls around on the floor. 
Pg2-pg12-FB: just before issue 1-FB pg19, same night 
Moon Knight fights Bushman and gets his legs crushed. So he cuts off Bushmans face and kills him. 
Pg13-pg22: day after pg1 
Crawley visits Marc and gives him some medication, but he decides not to take it and go out for lunch. Meanwhile, Profile is informed that Moon Knight is moving around again. 

References: 
Not much. 

Moon Knight #3 
Pub: August, 2006 

Appearances: 
Moon Knight(Marc Spector), Frenchie(Jean-Paul Duchamp), Profile, Marlene Alraune, Taskmaster 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg16: same day as end of last issue 
As Marc Spector goes to Frenchies Bistro, Profile updates the Committee on Moon Knight. After an argument Marc goes home. That night, Jean-Paul is beaten brutally with his own prosthetic legs. 
Pg17-pg23: next day 
Marc visits Jean-Paul at the hospital and Marlene shows up. Later, he stabs a mugger in the face. Elsewhere, the Committee realizes that having Jean-Paul beat half to death was a bad idea, so they hire Taskmaster to confront Moon Knight. 

References: 
There are some photographs of Marc Spector during his military days I have no idea if theyre place-able, though. 

Moon Knight #4 
Pub: September, 2006 

Appearances: 
Moon Knight(Marc Spector), Profile, Marlene Alraune, Taskmaster, Dr. Peter Alraune Sr.s body-FB 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4: same night as end of last issue 
Moon Knight hallucinates that his statue of Khonshu is talking to him, and that Bushman is behind it. Meanwhile, the Profile chats about Moon Knight with his date. 
Pg5pn1-FB: Moon Knights origin? 
Marc Spector fights someone in the jungle over Dr. Alraunes body. Theres a knife stuck in the back of the doctors neck. 
Pg5pn2(of 5)-pg12pn1: same night as pg4 
Moon Knight hallucinates some more. 
Pg12pn2-FB 
Montage. Marc Spector is kicked out of his house, learns to box, then signs up for the military. 
Pg12pn3(of 6)-pg23: same night as pg12pn1 
Marlene walks in while Marc is talking to his Khonshu statue. She yells at him for a bit, then Taskmaster bursts in through the window. 

References: 
Apparently, its been two years since Marc has seen Jean-Paul. Im not sure if that works wasnt Frenchie in Marvel Team-Up recently? 

Moon Knight #5 
Pub: October, 2006 

Appearances: 
Moon Knight(Marc Spector), Marlene Alraune, Taskmaster, Samuels, Nedda 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg24: same night as last issue 
Taskmaster is going to kill Moon Knight & Marlene, but Samuels shoots him with a shotgun. He falls out the window and drives away in his van. The three of them drive to Moon Knights hangar where Nedda is waiting for them. Moon Knight puts on his suit and flies off in one of his moon-jets.(or whatever theyre called) Meanwhile, the Taskmaster is demanding compensation from the Committee for his lost equipment, when Moon Knight flies his jet through the window. 

Moon Knight #6 
Published: November, 2006 

Appearances: 
Moon Knight(Marc Spector), Taskmaster, Marlene Arlaune, Profile, Samuels, Frenchie(Jean-Paul Duchamp), Betrand Crawley, Profile, Clock Killer 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7: same night as last issue 
Moon Knight beats up the Taskmaster and leaves. 
Pg8-pg10: next day 
Marc Spector shaves and visits Marlene, then Jean-Paul. 
Pg11-pg24: nearly a month later 
Marc Spector talks with his investor, who tells him that a patent will sell soon and will make him very wealthy. Later, Crawley stops by for a visit. Later still, Marc talks to his hallucinations. That night, Moon Knight breaks into the Profiles hotel room and makes a point, then heads home and stands before his Khonshu statue. Marlene swings by for a visit. 
Pg25: possibly the same night, possibly not. 
The Clock Killer smashes a clock over the body of a woman hes just killed. 

References: 
Next issue will have a newspaper that says something like: Clock Killer strikes again! Im fairly certain theres a proper name for this guy besides Clock Killer, but I dont know what it is. Sorry. 

Also, next issue picks up some time after this one. Not too long, because Moon Knight is marking his territory, but not the next day following, if you get what I mean. 

I would put the FlashBacks as close to Moon Knights Marvel Team-Up appearance as possible, and then these issues as close to Civil War as possible, and just grin & bear it. Im pretty sure the two years reference wont hold up. 

No seasonal references to speak of, but there is a full moon seen in practically every issue.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Aug 24, 2007 11:28 am 
By dimadick

"Next issue will have a newspaper that says something like: Clock Killer strikes again! Im fairly certain theres a proper name for this guy besides Clock Killer, but I dont know what it is. Sorry. " 

Later issues reveal him to be Midnight/Jeff Mace who had been previously thought deceased since "Amazing Spider-Man" vol. 1 #358 (January, 1992).

			*	*	*

Sep 01, 2007 8:21 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Apparently, its been two years since Marc has seen Jean-Paul. Im not sure if that works wasnt Frenchie in Marvel Team-Up recently? 
<<<

That two-year reference should be ignored, as should another reference in issue #8 that it's been "two years" since Marc killed Bushman. I guess "two years" is code for "a while." For the latter reference, I'm tending to call it two months.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Subject: Elektra: Glimpse & Echo 1-4
Sep 02, 2007 2:15 am 

By Col_Fury
Director

Elektra: Glimpse & Echo #1 
Published: September, 2002 

Appearances: 
Elektra Natchios 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg11 
Elektra visits her fathers grave and is attacked by a ninja. She then goes to a nightclub, because the ninja told her to. 
Pg12-pg16-FB: ten years ago 
A jazz musician has a kid who plays basketball. The kid is recruited by the Hand, and the kid kills his father. 
Pg17-pg22 
Elektra is hired to kill someone tonight. 

Elektra: Glimpse & Echo #2 
Published: October, 2002 

Appearances: 
Elektra Natchios 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: same day as last issue 
Elektra kills the man she was hired to, and that night goes to collect her payment. Shes contacted by the dead jazz musicians ghost, who asks her to kill his son. She then goes on to collect her payment to discover that she was hired by the Hand, so she kills her contact. The television reveals that the basketball player is associating with known Hand associates. 

Elektra: Glimpse & Echo #3 
Published: November, 2002 

Appearances: 
Elektra Natchios 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12: same night as last issue 
Elektra kills her other contact. 
Pg13-pg22: next day 
Elektra follows the basketball player after a game and overhears plans for a ceremony for tomorrow. She lets them know she knows about them. 

Elektra: Glimpse & Echo #4 
Published: December, 2002 

Appearances: 
Elektra Natchios 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: day after last issue 
At the ceremony that will turn Lyle(the basketball player) into a new container for the Hands Beast, Elektra attacks and kills him. 

References: 
The art makes it look like its snowing in a few scenes, but people are wearing short sleeve shirts in some of the issues. Make of that what you will. 

The Hand is looking for a new way to contain the Beast, which is nothing new. The Hand is also fragmented, which again, is nothing new. 

This was published at the same time as Elektra 12-15. Issue 9 ended an arc set in Greece. Issue 10 was a stand-alone story showing Elektras return to New York and revealing that shes been too public lately, and is currently unhire-able. Unemployed, in other words. Issue 11 starts an arc where Elektra is captured and psychologically tortured to show her the error of her ways. Since Elektra is shown to take a job on a whim, with no price attached, Ill suggest that this mini be placed while shes unemployed, and before shes tortured.(Between issues 10 & 11) 

ELEKTRA/ELEKTRA NATCHIOS 
 
ELEK2 9 
ELEK2 10 
*E: G&E 1
*E: G&E 2
*E: G&E 3
*E: G&E 4 
PUN6 27 
ELEK2 11 
ELEK2 12 


-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Subject: Sentinel v2

Sep 02, 2007 2:36 pm 
By JD

SENTINEL v2 #1-5 
Writer : Sean McKeever 
Artist : Joe Vriens 
Published from November 2005 to March 2006 

Cast : 
- Juston Seyfert and his Sentinel 
- Juston's family : his father Peter, his brother Chris, his mother Jen, his aunt Ginny Baker 
- Students at Juston's school : Ashleigh Nichols, Josh Arndt, Jessie, Matt, Alex Anderson 
- Kelly Wallace, a reporter 
- Agent Walsh from the CSA (Commission on Superhuman Activities) 
- Colonel Archibald Hunt and Senator Jeff Knudson (Wisconsin) from the old Sentinel Program 

SENTINEL v2 #1 
Appearances : Juston and his Sentinel, Peter and Chris Seyfert, Ashleigh Nicols, Jessie, Matt, Alex Anderson, Kelly Wallace, Agent Walsh, Colonel Hunt, Senator Knudson 

Summary : 
Juston and his Sentinel are on the run (following his departure to see his mother in SENTINEL 12). Big search by the media and various policing agencies to find him. Pete goes searching on his own, followed by Kelly Wallace. 
Meanwhile, the baddies behind the old Sentinel Program have noticed that Juston's Sentinel was theirs, and decide to send another one to destroy evidence. 

Flashbacks : 
- Pages 6-7 have a lot of flashbacks (TV interviews of various characters) : 
* page 6 panel 2 : Juston after "saving the day" in the fake Sentinel attack [a repeat of the scene in SENTINEL 6) 
* page 6 panel 3 : Juston's dad refuses to comment (between now and SENTINEL 12, K. Wallace BTS) 
* page 7 panel 1 : interview of Josh Arndt (K. Wallace BTS) 
* page 7 panel 2 : interview of random students (K. Wallace BTS) 
* page 7 panel 3-5 : interview of Ashley Nichols (K. Wallace actually seen and heard in panel 5) 
- Pages 17-18 have the Sentinel show some of its memories. Most are repeats of previous scenes, but the next flashback is new : 
* page 18 panels 2-4 : the Sentinel kills some white collar dude 

Time passage : 

- Pages 1-5 : early night 
- Pages 6-12 : day, "more than 24 hours" since SENTINEL 12 (probably just the day after) 
- Pages 13-18 : night 
- Pages 19-22 : dawn at Washington DC 

Note : the issue has a second story, the Franklin Richards strip "Weather or not". 

SENTINEL v2 #2 
Appearances : Juston and his Sentinel, Ginny Baker, Colonel Hunt, Senator Knudson, Peter Seyfert, Kelly Wallace, Ashleigh Nichols, Jessie 

Summary : 
Juston arrives at his aunt's (whence he hopes to find his mother). She blows him off and tells him she left because of him and his brother. Juston flees, but is attacked but the Sentinel "Mark VII-A" that the baddies have just launched. 

Passage of time : all one day, continuing from SENTINEL2 1 (pages 19-22) 

Note : I have no idea whether the "Mark VII-A" model of Sentinel works with the continuity of Sentinels. Note that the titular Sentinel is supposed to be an EARLIER design... 

SENTINEL v2 #3 
Appearances : Juston and his Sentinel, Ginny Baker, Peter Seyfert, Kelly Wallace, Ashleigh Nichols, Jessie, Matt, Alex Anderson, Chris Seyfert, Senator Kudsen, Colonel Hunt 

Summary : 
Juston and his Sentinel barely escape. His father has a public clash with Aunt Ginny and goes searching on the road again. The baddies decide to apply maximum force against Juston and the Sentinel. 

Passage of time : 
- Pages 1-18 : the day and night continuing from last issue 
- Pages 19-22 : before dawn, the next day 

SENTINEL v2 #4 
Appearances : Juston and his Sentinel, Senator Kudsen, Colonel Hunt, Ashleigh Nichols, Jessie, Matt, Alex Anderson, Peter and Chris Seyfert 

Summary : Big fight scene between the Sentinels. Meanwhile, Juston's friends publically humiliate Ashleigh, leading to a fight between her and Jessie that evening... except that the Sentinel fight lands just before them. 

Passage of time : continuing from last issue, the day from dawn to night 

SENTINEL v2 #5 
Appearances : Juston and his Sentinel, Colonel Hunt, Senator Kudsen, Ashleigh Nichols, Jessie, Peter and Chris Seyfert, Matt, Alex Anderson, Kelly Wallace 

Summary : Because his family is endangered, Juston and his Sentinel manage to defeat the other Sentinel. Juston hides the Sentinel and the statu quo is restored (except his family now know about the Sentinel). 

Flashbacks : 
- pages 18 to 20 panel 2 : TV spot of Juston returning to school 
Appearances : Juston, Ashleigh Nichols, Jessie, Matt, Alex, Kelly Wallace 

Passage of time : 
- pages 1-12 continue directly from last issue 
- page 13 is the next day 
- pages 14-17 have Juston visiting his father at the hospital at night (???), full moon 
- pages 18-20 (FB, day) is "one week" after Justin running away 
- pages 20 (night) is probably the following evening 
- pages 22-23 are "weeks later" 

And now, listings ! 

I won't bother with the Sentinel : it's sentient, but has no name. 
Some characters are missing from the MCP, probably because they didn't have a full name yet. Those missing entries are signaled with a single *. 

SEYFERT, JUSTON 
... 
SENTINEL 12 
** SENTINEL2 1 
** SENTINEL2 2 
** SENTINEL2 3 
** SENTINEL2 4 
** SENTINEL2 5 
** SENTINEL2 5-FB 
** SENTINEL2 5 

SEYFERT, CHRIS 
... 
SENTINEL 12 
** SENTINEL2 1 
** SENTINEL2 2 
** SENTINEL2 3 
** SENTINEL2 4 
** SENTINEL2 5 

** KUDSEN, SEN. JEFF 
** SENTINEL2 1 
** SENTINEL2 2 
** SENTINEL2 3 
** SENTINEL2 4 
** SENTINEL2 5 

** HUNT, COL. ARCHIBALD 
** SENTINEL2 1 
** SENTINEL2 2 
** SENTINEL2 3 
** SENTINEL2 4 
** SENTINEL2 5 

* SEYFERT, PETER 
* SENTINEL 1 
* SENTINEL 2 
* SENTINEL 3 
* SENTINEL 5 
* SENTINEL 6 
* SENTINEL 7 
* SENTINEL 10 
* SENTINEL 11 
* SENTINEL 12 
** SENTINEL2 1 
** SENTINEL2 2 
** SENTINEL2 3 
** SENTINEL2 4 
** SENTINEL2 5 

** WALLACE, KELLY 
** SENTINEL2 1-FB 
** SENTINEL2 1 
** SENTINEL2 2 
** SENTINEL2 3 
** SENTINEL2 5 
** SENTINEL2 5-FB 

* WALSH, AGENT 
* SENTINEL 12 
** SENTINEL2 1 

NICHOLS, ASHLEIGH 
... 
SENTINEL 12 
** SENTINEL2 1 
** SENTINEL2 2 
** SENTINEL2 3 
** SENTINEL2 4 
** SENTINEL2 5 
** SENTINEL2 5-FB 

** BAKER, GINNY 
** SENTINEL2 2 
** SENTINEL2 3 

* ARNDT, JOSH 
* SENTINEL 1 
* SENTINEL 2 
* SENTINEL 4 
* SENTINEL 5 
* SENTINEL 6 
** SENTINEL2 1 

* ANDERSON, ALEX 
* SENTINEL 1 
* SENTINEL 2 
* SENTINEL 3 
* SENTINEL 4 
* SENTINEL 5 
* SENTINEL 6 
* SENTINEL 7 
* SENTINEL 10 
* SENTINEL 12 
** SENTINEL2 1 
** SENTINEL2 2 
** SENTINEL2 3 
** SENTINEL2 4 
** SENTINEL2 5 
** SENTINEL2 5-FB 


Wow, that was long in the making. Next : probably White Tiger, if that final issue does come out.

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Subject: Two-Gun Kid: The Sunset Riders 1 & 2 

Sep 02, 2007 5:51 am 
By JLH

I put way the hell too much time and effort into summaries, don't I? 

------------------------------------ 
TWO GUN KID: THE SUNSET RIDERS #1 [November 1995] 
"Chapter One: Biting the Bullet"/"Chapter Two: Lighting the Fuse" 
Story: Fabian Nicieza 
Pencils: Christian Gorney 
Inks & Finishes: Michael Halbleib 

Cast: 
TWO-GUN KID/MATTHEW J. LIEBOWICZ/"MATT HAWK"/"CLAY HARDER" 
FOURNIER, MARCEL
FYSKOV, ANATOLY 
CLEVELAND, GROVER (President of the United States of America) 
BAYARD, THOMAS FRANCIS (US Secretary of State) 
HENDRICKS, THOMAS ANDREWS (Vice President of the USA) 
RUNNING FISH
NGURI, HIJIRO 


Other characters: 
Dandridge, Colonel (Cavalry leader; dies) 
Herrold (Allegheny Furrier Company member) 
Viacheslev (Fyskov's right hand man) 
Pushkin, Valeri (Russian Secretary of Defense) 
Terasaki, Keniuchi (Japanese Minister of Foreign Affairs) 
Percival, Chester Allan (Canadian Minister of State) 
Aiichi, Shintaro (Samurai clan lord and Imperial Counsel to the Shogun of Nippon) 
Killerman, Agent (Pinkerton agent) 
Walks With Sun (elder Indian; dies) 
Jackson (guy involved with the conspiracy) 
Kagaki (another one) 


Summary: So, April 28th, 1885 is said to be the day that Matt Hawk died. So, once that day comes, Two-Gun Kid takes the initiative to plant a corpse in his law office in Tombstone, Arizona, gas the place up and place dynamite in it, being sure to burn his Avengers identicard and picture with Hawkeye. Timing things just right, he rides down into the town just as they're preparing to hang Matt's final client, an accused spy and black Canadian trapper, Marcel Fournier, and uses the distraction of the explosion to save him. Well, Two-Gun rides out of town, snatches up a pair of "friends" from a grave marked "Here lies Fred and Wilma (they're a page right out of history)". Once trapped in a ravine by a load of calvarymen, Two-Gun pulls out his pals, who turn out to be a pair of machine guns! He uses them on the troops, reluctantly, giving him and Marcel a chance to escape. 

Soon, later, in Chicago, Illinois, Russian businessman Anatoly Fyskov is learning from his right hand man about the current news about the "Golden Sun" operation they're involved with (which apparently has something to do with Marcel), while getting a shave. The barber fails to take the initiative and cut his neck, leading to his own neck getting snapped, but not before pointing the finger at who put him up to it, the Japanese guy nearby, who promptly kills himself! Fyskov, aware that the Japanese must now know he no longer has the items, must bring in more players into this complicated game. 

Later, at the White House, Grover Cleveland has a meeting, arranged by his Secretary of State, with the Russian Secretary of Defense, Japanese Minister of Foreign Affairs, and Canadian Minister of State, concerning this international crisis. When the President makes a remark that anyone involved with it need not stay around, the Canuck and the Russkie get offended, but the Japanese remains calm, clearly indiciative of his guilt. Soon, in San Francisco, a couple of drunks attack what they think is a dumb "coolie", only to end up getting gutted by Hijiro Nguri, a Samurai. He, and his clan lord, Shintaro Aiichi, who is also the Imperial Counsel to the Shogun, then run into some cops, and are forced to kill them. Soon, Pinkerton agent Killerman investigates the matter, and reports back to the Vice President himself, with this evidence of what they percieve to be Japanese emissaries of the Emperor declaring war on the US. 

Outside of Sonoita, Mexico, Matt Hawk continues on his journey with Marcel, informing him all about his backstory. Marcel's especially confused by the whole time travel aspect, and doesn't quite seem capable of grasping the concept of presdestination paradoxes and the like. Well, they're headed to San Diego now, having presumably lost the cavalry for the time being. Oh, and Marcel admits he was guilty after all, though he didn't kill the government agent and cavalry soldier out of anything but self defense. Seems Marcel was given orders, signed by both the Prime Minister of Canada and President Cleveland, to retrieve some "stolen items". What items? Well, we find out pretty quickly, as the swift young Native American man called Running Fish spots them and reports back to his Cibecue Apache elder, Walks With Sun, that the "Black Bear" and the "White Eyes with Two Guns" are nearby. The stolen items were none other than pair of golden-skinned minks, which they've been taking care of for the past two weeks. Since Walks with Sun knows Two Gun is an honorable man, they're willing to give the minks to him and Marcel, especially since the minks seem to be cursed or something like that. Back at the campsite, Matt reveals one last thing to Marcel: the history books didn't just say when Matt Hawk died, but when Two-Gun Kid did as well... two months after him! 

So, a few weeks pass, and the cavalry are once again hunting down Two-Gun and Marcel, who've been hanging out with the Cibecue Apaches. Taking back the minks, the pair departs, hoping to spare the Indians. Over in Tombstone, men representing Russia, Japan, Canada, and the US meet together to discuss any success in hunting down Marcel, and retrieving the minks or the missing scrolls. Little do these men realize, that one of them is undermining the entire operation, and is working directly with Fyskov. As for the Cibecue, their village ends up raided and everyone slaughtered. Running Fish, having been on a vision quest out in the desert at the time, returns after two days to discover his family and people dead, with only the hat of a cavalryman left beind as evidence of the source. Soon in San Diego, Marcel and Two-Gun get prepared to board a ship which'll take them up to Alaska, along with the minks and another box of stuff from the future (this one seemingly buried in a grave with a New York Police badge on it, the name Gordon Summers on it, and the epitath "Floated like a butterfly, but got stung by a bee"). One of the watering holes refuses to serve Marcel, since he's black, but Matt is held back from responding to the racism with violence. But this public appearance does lead to Col. Dandridge and his calvary getting word of thier presence. Over in Washington DC, President Cleveland mulls over the claims of war being declared via the report from his VP. In Denver, Viacheslev meets with Fyskov, having recovered the stolen scroll. And back again in San Diego, Matt & Marcel are pulled from the cargo hold of the ship by Dandridge. Seems Herrold, the bearded fellow involved with the conspiracy of guys from earlier, works for a competing furrier company that lost the bid for the minks and thus had them stolen. Anyway, before Matt and Marcel can be killed, Running Fish takes the cavalry by surprise, killing some of them in revenge for their killing of his tribe, using arrows from afar. Two-Gun is forced to use his next gift from the future, assembling a bazooka and sinking the cavalry ship trying to follow the one they're in! 

Up in San Francisco, VP Hendricks finally meets with Shintaro, who is apparently there to retrieve the stolen print scroll heirloom of the Emperor. He stresses the importance of the situation as something bigger, since it also involves representatives of the Russian Czar and the Canadian government. When told the animals to be used to barter for the scroll are in the hands of Marcel and Two-Gun Kid, Shintaro calls forth his fully-decked out samurai warrior, Hijiro, who vows to kill them! 


Continuity notes: The "our story so far" write-up claims that Matt Hawk has been Two-Gun for 15 years. It also claims he's been home from the future for 10 years, and this is backed up in the story. 

There's a brief mention of General Crook by one of the calvary members. 

Is this the first time Matt Hawk's birth name is revealed to be Matthew Liebowicz? Probably not, but I figure I'd bring it up since I've seen some confusion as to when it was coined. 

Matt says that the hardest thing he ever had to do, aside from firing those machine guns, was burying his little girl, a reference to an event in the past ten years we didn't see, which will be elaborated on next issue. 



Goofs: If the retcon from "Blaze of Glory" is to be believed, in that this didn't take place in 1885, but 1883, that pretty much means Grover Cleveland and Thomas Hendricks couldn't have appeared here, as they weren't in office at the time. But, hell, Marvel fudges time around real world figures all the time. Unless you're doing some kind of "Old West calendar", this sort of thing isn't all that important. Maybe in the MU, Grover & Hendricks got in early? 


Calendar notes: April 28th, May 2nd, May 4th, May 5th, May 6th, May 30th, June 2nd, June 13th, and June 14th, 1885. 



------------------------------------ 
TWO GUN KID: THE SUNSET RIDERS #2 [December 1995] 
"Chapter Three: Crossing the Golden Gate Bridge"/"Chapter Four: Living Past Tomorrow" 
Story: Fabian Nicieza 
Pencils: Christian Gorney with Alex Maleev 
Inks & Finishes: Michael Halbleib 

Cast: 
TWO-GUN KID/MATTHEW J. LIEBOWICZ/"MATT HAWK"/"CLAY HARDER"
FOURNIER, MARCEL
FYSKOV, ANATOLY (dies) 
CLEVELAND, GROVER
HENDRICKS, THOMAS ANDREWS
RUNNING FISH
NGURI, HIJIRO 
ALEXANDER III (FB only) 
MEIJI, EMPEROR MUTSUHITO (FB only) 
ROCKEFELLER SR., JOHN DAVISON
CARNEGIE, ANDREW
MORGAN, JOHN PIERPONT
COOKE, JAY 


Other characters: 
Jenkins (White House butlerish guy) 
Pushkin, Valeri 
Viacheslev (dies) 
Herrold (dies) 
Aiichi, Shintaro (dies) 
Percival, Chester Allan 
Wainbright, Sergeant (likely dies) 
Killerman, Agent (dies) 


Summary: Well, Marcel, Two-Gun, and Running Fish are in San Francisco, and are being chased around town by a whole horde of samurai! Along the way, Hijiro Nguri realizes the purposes he's fighting for are not honorable, while the three men he's supposed to kill actually are. In an effort to save his country from a war with the US, Hijiro aids the trio in avoiding a confrontation. Up at the White House, President Cleveland learns of the San Francisco incident, and demands some answers from the Russian Minister of Defense, lest their countries go to war. Back in San Fran, Fyskov is hounded by Pinkerton agents hired by the Vice President. He then meets with his associate, Herrold, who barely survived the attack from last issue. Elsewhere in the city, the Sunset Riders must contend now with a whole lot of cops! They distract them by having Running Fish shoot fire-lit arrows at the 5th Annual Hot Air Balloon Festival banner, allowing them to hop aboard a trolley, hijacking it. They don't get far before running into Shintaro and the samurai. As it turns out, the two golden minks manages to slip out of Marcel's bag somewhere during their adventure. Thus, as they no longer have what everyone is after, and for old times sake, Shintaro allows the Sunset Riders to go. Marcel heads off on his own to track down the minks, promising to rendezvous with the team up in Canada. The trio heads outside of town, where they next run into the damn cavalry! They end up at the hot air balloon festival, with Two-Gun and Running Fish shooting down all but one of the balloons, which they then hijack and use to escape in (this one being picked by Matt as it featured a Jules Verne ad on it). 

Soon, a meeting between Shintaro, Herrold and Viacheslev reveals the secret of the print scroll. It includes a crude map of Alaska hidden in a tapestry beneath the design. Unfortunately, it's still useless without the minks. As it turns out, Fyskov has a new member to their partnership, Marcel, with the minks! 

A few weeks later, the three Sunset Riders have reached Canada by train. They get chased by some Mounties, but the damn Dudley Do-Wrongs go and shoot at them when they climb up atop the train in a canyon pass. An avalanche occurs, derailing the train and killing most of the passengers. Soon, word of this reaches Granville, the future Vancouver, where VP Hendricks is meeting with Canadian Minister of State Percival. Seems Cleveland did get some info from the Russian Secretary of Defense, namely what everybody wants up in Alaska. Now, it seems, the US and Canadian government are working with Fyskov to cut out Japan and Russia to get to it. This is gonna make everyone really, really rich! Whee! So, soon, in Harrisburg, Alaska, Marcel skins the golden minks, and retrieves the items of importance from their intestinal tract-stiched and iron capsule homes. A piece of parchment is inside each, which, when placed over the map, pinpoints the location of the treasure they seek. Viacheslev kills Shintaro and Herrold, cutting the Japanese government and the Canadian company out of the windfall. Marcel is allowed to live by Fyskov merely to lead the expedition. Meanwhile, in Washington DC, President Cleveland speaks to four captains of industry, Rockefeller, Carnegie, Morgan, and Cooke, getting them prepared for assisting in this upcoming "discovery" which will prove Seward's Folly to be justified once and for all. 

Back in Alaska, the Sunset Riders, having narrowly escaped death on the train, are nearly snuffed out by Viacheslev. But Marcel apparently switches sides again, killing him and rejoining his teammates in stopping a world war. The Riders learn that Marcel was working for the Canadian goverment all along, trying to stop the Japanese and Russians from getting the map. But once Fyskov started controlling the game, he changed gears in an effort to see the completed map. Now, the team is pressed even harder to get to the destination before the other players. Two-Gun suspects what the end result is, and knows its importance in the future, which is all the more reason to keep anyone from having it right now. Finally, the Sunset Riders reach the spot, with Two-Gun and Marcel heading into the tunnel to investigate. They plummet in, and Matt uses his cigarette lighter to light the room, keeping Marcel from lighting a torch. As it turns out, the end result everyone is after is a huge cavern full of oil, pushed above sea level by tectonic pressure, a geological impossibility made real. All it'll take is someone to come in and extract it, and the economic picture of the globe would change forever. Despite their head start and nonstop progression, the Sunset Riders are ambushed by Fyskov, who allied himself with the cavalry and made it there quicker via two man shifts. Anyway, Two-Gun urges his partners to fall back deeper into the tunnels, and proceeds to use the final gift from the future: a block of C4! Two-Gun sets it off and races after his friends. The explosion levels the mountain, killing Fyskov and many of the crooked cavalry, but most importantly, destroying the oil. But somehow, the Sunset Riders were blown out via another tunnel, and sent tumbling down the mountain, through a river, to safety below. A few extra calvary men caught them, but when faced with their weapons, took off. As it is, none saw Two-Gun, and thus, the legend that the Two-Gun Kid died in the explosion is kept true. Now allowed to live as a new man with the freedom of the future, Two-Gun rides into the sunset with his fellow Sunset Riders, ready to face tomorrow again. 



Flashback: 1834, a Russian and Japanese team of explorers chart Alaska in search of gold. Most die after 8 months, ending with just one survivor from each of the teams. They fall into mountain tunnel, and find this mysterious treasure. Using skin-seal parchment, the pair create a crude map, and ensuring loyalty, make it so half is in Russian and half is in Japanese. Both of the men die before telling anyone of their discovery. 48 years later, a group of Russian merchant sailors raid an Eskimo camp for supplies, and find the map, which one of the "savages" salvaged from the dead bodies. The Russians, needing to be able to read the Japanese portions, teamed up with the Japanese, splitting the map up in an effort to try to circumvent the involvement of the American and Canadian goverments. We see both the Tsar and Emperor involved in this scheme. 

Continuity notes: Between the two chapters is a one page text piece, "Two Guns, Three Faces" by Paul J. Becton, detailing Two-Gun Kid's comic publishing history. 

The back cover reveals something not directly explained in the story itself. Fyskov is the great-grandfather of Wilson Fisk! 

There's a ripped out page ad concerning the Roxxon Oil spill, from "Marvel: Year in Review" uhhh 89, I think. 

In dialogue, Two-Gun explains what it was like when he returned to Tombstone from his time with the Avengers. The person who sent him home left a crate with weapons and a note, telling him to enjoy the presents "or don't, quite a difficult choice, isn't it?", as if some kind of cruel entertainment. Matt buried them, reconciled himself to living in the past. Three years later, he married Nancy Carter. He retired from being Two-Gun. Nancy died giving birth to their daughter, Eve, from a ruptured cervix. Eve died at age four from rubella. His best friend, Boom-Boom Brown, died six months ago from gangrene given to him by a dentist working on his busted jaw from a boxing match a year ago using unsanitary equipment! 


Goofs: Back cover claims the date in the story is 1884. 

Emperor Mutsuhito's name is repeatedly misspelled as "Mutushito". 

The balloon features the typo of "Jules Vern". 

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police weren't called such until many years after this story, yet Wainbright uses the term. 

Percival went from being blonde with full hair, to being gray haired and thinning. 

Marcel claims the sound effect he hears when the two guys are shot is "Krakow", but it's "Kapow" we see. 

Fyskov's name is spelled "Fsykov" a few times. Argh. 


Calendar notes: June 15th, June 16th, June 17th, July 4th, July 5th, July 12th, July 13th, and upwards through about July 20th, 1885. 


------------------------------------ 


TWO-GUN KID/MATTHEW J. LIEBOWICZ/"MATT HAWK"/"CLAY HARDER" 
... 
BP3 47 
**TGK:SR 1 
**TGK:SR 2 

**FOURNIER, MARCEL 
TGK:SR 1 
TGK:SR 2 

**FYSKOV, ANATOLY 
TGK:SR 1 
TGK:SR 2 

**CLEVELAND, GROVER 
TGK:SR 1 
TGK:SR 2 

**BAYARD, THOMAS FRANCIS 
TGK:SR 2 

**HENDRICKS, THOMAS ANDREWS 
TGK:SR 1 
TGK:SR 2 

**RUNNING FISH 
TGK:SR 1 
TGK:SR 2 

**NGURI, HIJIRO 
TGK:SR 1 
TGK:SR 2 

**ALEXANDER III 
TGK:SR 2-FB 

**MEIJI, EMPEROR MUTSUHITO 
TGK:SR 2-FB 

**ROCKEFELLER SR., JOHN DAVISON 
TGK:SR 2 

**CARNEGIE, ANDREW 
TGK:SR 2 

**MORGAN, JOHN PIERPONT 
TGK:SR 2 

**COOKE, JAY 
TGK:SR 2

			*	*	*

Sep 02, 2007 9:06 am 
By Enda80

"There's a ripped out page ad concerning the Roxxon Oil spill, from "Marvel: Year in Review" uhhh 89, I think." 

Actually, it came from a Swimsuit Special. 

"The back cover reveals something not directly explained in the story itself. Fyskov is the great-grandfather of Wilson Fisk! " 

How does the back cover establish that?

			*	*	*

Sep 02, 2007 11:22 pm 
By JLH

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
How does the back cover establish that?
<<<

It... SAYS it... right in the form of your greatest nemesis: plain English? 

Fyskov has a cane with a metal fist top to it he carries around a lot. Luckily, he's well into his middle age or so before dying, or else he'd have a hard time continuing the line that leads to Kingpin.

			*	*	*

Sep 03, 2007 12:33 am 
By wolframbane

I also believe Fyskov is mentioned as an ancestor in Kinpin's listing in OHOTMU: Daredevil.

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Subject: NYX 5-7

Sep 03, 2007 12:56 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

NYX #5 

Appearances: 
Kiden Nixon, Tatiana, X-23, Cameron Palmer, Zebra Daddy, dead policemans ghost(Pat Nixon) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3-FB: eighteen hours ago, following NYX 4-FB 
Kiden & Cameron run into a hotel room, where they find a dead body.(this is the guy who killed himself in last issues FB. X-23 is not seen, but shes just on the other side of the door, giving her a BTS) A hooker calls Zebra Daddy to let him know a customer is dead. He tells her to follow them. She does, and gives him the address of where they end up. 
Pg4-pg9: now, picking up where last issue left off 
Kiden freaks out, because no one can see the ghost of her dad. The ghost tells them to leave and they do, just before Zebra Daddy attacks. They escape, and X-23 reveals her claws. 
Pg10-pg26: next day 
Tatiana rescues a dog thats been hit by a car. Elsewhere, Kiden, X-23, & Cameron go dumpster diving. Later in school, Tatianas mutant ability manifests itself in class. Shes chased through the streets, and is rescued by Kiden, X-23, & Cameron. 


NYX #6 

Appearances: 
Felon(Bobby Soul), Zebra Daddy, Kiden Nixon, Cameron Palmer, Tatiana, X-23, Tatianas mom, Felons brother, Mrs. Alba, dead policemans ghost(Pat Nixon). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4: somewhere in New York 
Felon wakes up in a hotel room while a brown-haired girl(prostitute?) is showering. She passes out and he answers his ringing phone. Its Zebra Daddy, and he wants Felon to meet him. Felon hangs up and starts to head home, but hes having trouble remembering things. 
Pg5-pg6: the Bronx 
Kiden, Cameron, Tatiana, and X-23 talk about what Tatianas been through today. Tatiana decides to go home, and Kiden sees a ghost of a dead policeman.(her dad?) 
Pg7-pg10: the Flatiron district 
Felon and Zebra Daddy talk. Zebra Daddy wants felon to find X-23 and bring her back to him. 
Pg11-pg12: Tatianas place 
Tatiana comes home to find her mother having sex with some guy on the couch. Her mother asks her why she isnt in school, and Tatiana runs out to meet Kiden whos waiting for her. 
Pg13-pg15: District X, 7:36 AM 
Felon talks to his handicapped brother when Mrs. Alba the babysitter arrives. 
Pg16: Manhattan, 8:06 AM 
Felon talks to Tanya, who gives him Camerons address. 
Pg17: East 25th Street, 8:18 AM 
Felon goes to Camerons apartment, which has been cordoned off by the police. 
Pg18-pg19: Giuliani High School, 8:30 AM 
Felon finds a girl at school(who apparently knows Tatiana) and asks her where her friends are. 
Pg20-pg21: the Bronx 
Cameron blows up(emotionally, not literally) at Kiden while Tatiana and X-23 watch. 
Pg22-pg23: Somewhere in New York 
Felon calls Zebra Daddy to let him know where to find X-23 and friends. 
Pg24: the Bronx 
Kiden goes dumpster diving while the others try to decide what to do next. 
Pg25-pg27: District X, 8:07 PM 
Felon feeds his brother but cant remember what he did today. He then sees the ghost of a dead police officer.(Kidens dad?) 

NYX #7 

Appearances: 
Felon, Zebra Daddy, Felons brother, dead policemans ghost(Pat Nixon), Cameron Palmer, Kiden Nixon, Tatiana, X-23 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg41: same day as last issue 
The dead policemans ghost tells Felon to help Kiden, X-23, Cameron, & Tatiana. Elsewhere, Zebra Daddy snorts some coke plans another attack on X-23. Elsewhere, Tatiana figures out how her powers work. Elsewhere, Kidens family prepares to move. Kiden, X-23, Cameron, & Tatiana goes to Camerons apartment, Felon shows up, and so does Zebra Daddy. Theres a big fight, and X-23 kills Zebra Daddy. 
Pg42-pg43 
Kidens family drives off, just missing a letter sent to them by Kiden. 

Some placement suggestions: 

X-23 
NYX 3 
NYX 4-FB 
NYX 5-FB 
NYX 3 
NYX 4 
NYX 5 
NYX 6 
NYX 7 

NIXON, ELIZABETH 'LIZ' 
NYX 1-FB 
NYX 1 
NYX 2 
NYX 7 

NIXON, KIDEN 
NYX 1-FB 
NYX 1 
NYX 2 
NYX 4-FB 
NYX 2 
NYX 3 
NYX 5-FB 
NYX 4 
NYX 5 
NYX 6 
NYX 7 

NIXON, PAT 
NYX 1-FB 
NYX 4-FB 
NYX 4 
NYX 5 
NYX 6 
NYX 7 

PALMER, CAMERON 
NYX 1 
NYX 2 
NYX 3 
NYX 5-FB 
NYX 4 
NYX 5 
NYX 6 
NYX 7

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Sep 03, 2007 1:19 pm 
By dimadick

In X-Men:198 Files (2006), Tatiana is given a full name as "Tatiana Caban". Should she get a listing under it or do we wait for a reappearance?

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Subject: Origin 3-6 

Aug 30, 2007 3:29 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Origin #3 
Published: January, 2002 

This book is listed for everyone except Wolverine, and I can verify that Wolverine appears in this issue. If we feel like adding them, Rose & Smitty both appear here. 

Origin #4 
Published: February, 2002 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(of course), and assorted folks who havent appeared anywhere else since.(Rose, Smitty) 

Synopsis: 
Logan and Rose grow wiser at Smittys camp. Logan gets picked on, eventually kills a deer, gets picked on some more and runs off where he is confronted by a wild animal. 

Origin #5 
Published: May, 2002 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(of course), Dog, unnamed grandfather, Rose, Smitty 

Synopsis: 
Logan finally stands up to a bully, and is accepted by a pack of wild animals. Rose & Smitty fall in love. Elsewhere, Wolverines dying unnamed grandfather asks Dog to find his grandson James. 

Origin #6 
Published: July, 2002 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(of course), Dog, Rose, Smitty 

Synopsis: 
Wolverine & Smitty patch things up as he & Rose prepare to leave. Dog arrives and a fight ensues, which ends in Roses accidental death. Wolverine runs off into the wilderness. 

Wolverine is a straightforward placement do we want to list Rose? Shes dead at the end of the mini, and I dont see her having any more appearances outside of FlashBacks. If even then. 

WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT 
W: E 4 (9-13)-FB 
O 1 
O 2 
*O 3
*O 4
*O 5
*O 6 
W: O 15 (7:1)-FB 
M/CP 93-FB 
M/CP 94 
M/CP 95 
M/CP 96 
M/CP 97 
M/CP 98-FB 
W: O 15 (8-10)-FB (1912) 
W: O 12 (10-11)-FB 
W: O 15 (13:1)-FB 
W2 113-FB 


-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Aug 30, 2007 10:00 am 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Wolverine is a straightforward placement do we want to list Rose? Shes dead at the end of the mini, and I dont see her having any more appearances outside of FlashBacks. If even then.
<<<

Wolverine #176.

			*	*	*

Aug 31, 2007 12:13 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Hermn. How much can we count on that appearance? The ghost of Rose gives Wolverine a tour of his afterlife, but the ghosts of Colossus & Cyber are there as well.(among others) Since that can't possibly be the ghost of Cyber,(as revealed recently in Wolverine: Origins, he was never really dead in the first place) wouldn't that make the whole thing a hallucination?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Aug 31, 2007 8:27 am 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
the ghosts of Colossus & Cyber are there as well.(among others) Since that can't possibly be the ghost of Cyber,(as revealed recently in Wolverine: Origins, he was never really dead in the first place) wouldn't that make the whole thing a hallucination?
<<<

As a disembodied spirit, Cyber certainly could show up ... a better example would be Colossus, who was also later revealed to have never died. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Aug 31, 2007 8:33 am 
By Starman

Couldn't some been real, and some figments of his imagination? Or do all have to be real spirits for it to work? I mean, he could be having hallucinations, meanwhile Rose's spirit is trying to tell him something. Well, I haven't read Wolverine #176 yet, so I'm just shooting in the dark here.

- Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

			*	*	*

Aug 31, 2007 11:27 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
As a disembodied spirit, Cyber certainly could show up ... a better example would be Colossus, who was also later revealed to have never died. 
<<<

Good point, but there's still at least one character who now couldn't have been 'there.' 


Starman wrote:
>>>
Couldn't some been real, and some figments of his imagination? Or do all have to be real spirits for it to work? I mean, he could be having hallucinations, meanwhile Rose's spirit is trying to tell him something. 
Well, I haven't read Wolverine #176 yet, so I'm just shooting in the dark here.
<<<

In my mind, if there's at least one character that couldn't have been dead at the time, it throws the whole sequence into doubt.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Sep 03, 2007 2:37 pm 
By Somebody
Director

X-Statix Presents Dead Girl is in-continuity, yes? 

In which case, if people can just "pop" back to life if they're wanted - combined with the... cursory... nature of his resurrection (aliens did it!) - I don't see why that couldn't have been Colossus in W176. Stuff just reordered itself to undo his death without changing the apparent actions of the principals.

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Subject: Doom: the Emperor Returns 1-3

Sep 05, 2007 4:27 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Doom: the Emperor Returns #1 
Published: January, 2002 

Appearances: 
Dr. Doom, Lancer, Gen. Otto Octavius 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg24: Planet Doom 
Doom & Lancer chat while the S.H.I.E.L.D. Brigade, the Maggia, and the Iron Men, led by General Octavius, attack Dooms city. Doom gets a call from an expedition for new energy, so he goes to Planet Dooms core to check on the progress. When he arrives, its discovered that there is no core, theres just a bunch of circuitry. Doom attempts to interface with it and interacts with an avatar of Franklin Richards. After a discussion, Doom convinces Franklin to hand over control of the planets reality generators. He does, and Doom recreates the world as the attacking forces destroy his city 

References: 
Planet Doom is the Heroes Reborn world, and Franklin Richards created it. This avatar of him is not him BTS, but an artificial intelligence modeled after him, left behind to run the place. Hes called an avatar, so I wouldnt think that this should be listed as Franklin Richards II.(or whatever number it may be) 

Gen. Otto Octavius is Planet Dooms version of Dr. Octopus, so I would think that this does qualify for a Otto Octavius II listing.(or whatever number it may be) 

Doom appears in Thunderbolts 51 & 52, where Bucky wants the heroes who left to come back and fix their world.(She thinks that Doom is running it like crap) This mini is long enough after that for the world to mount an effective enough attack against Doom for his resources to be running low enough for them to win. All in one day on Planet Doom. 

Doom: the Emperor Returns #2 
Published: February, 2002 

Appearances: 
Dr. Doom, Lancer, Reed Richards(# whatever), Gornkai, Hellscout(Kenneth Tennyson) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg24: Planet Doom 
Lancer greets Doom, wondering where he was. Doom creates some ponie4s to distract Franklin, then he kills him. Doom & Lancer go to Castle Doom, and Doom gets caught up on how the planet is doing.(its great! No enemies, no fighting, no freedom) Dooms mom pops in, but theres a problem, she has no soul. So Doom checks in on a project he has cooking; a portal to hell. The lead scientist Reed Richards informs Doom that there has been no progress, which upsets Doom, so he kills Richards. Doom then uses magic to travel to hell, where he meets a demon. After a fight, Doom escapes back to planet Doom. After a while, Doom decides that it was too easy taking over this world, so he tries to teleport back to Earth. It doesnt work.(because something is wrong on the other end) Meanwhile, on Earth, Castle Doom is destroyed in an earthquake. Back on Planet Doom, Doom decides to get to Earth through the Negative Zone, puts his mom in a stasis tube and heads off. Hes watched by Gornkai & Hellscout once he enters. 

References: 
A Doombot is standing in for Doom at Castle Doom on Earth, overseeing the teleporter when the earthquake hits. 

Strange, wasnt there the Dr. Doom/Dr. Strange bookshelf where Doom & Strange go to hell and they send Dooms mom to heaven, only for Doom to never see her again, because hes damned to hell for the deal he made? Why does Doom think shes still in hell? 

Relatively, all in one day on Planet Doom. 

Doom: the Emperor Returns #3 
Published: March, 2002 

Appearances: 
Dr. Doom, Gornkai, Hellscout(Kenneth Tennyson), Tyndale, Jacob Tennyson 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg23: the Negative Zone 
Hellscout & Gornkai watch as Doom fights a giant monster. Dooms moms stasis pod is jettisoned, and they take it to their colony. Meanwhile, Doom defeats the monster. At the colony, Tyndale inspects Dooms mom, and Hellscout chats with his dad & some kid. Doom attacks, then convinces everyone that hes a good fellow and needs a ride to Earth. As they take him to their ship, the Franklin avatar appears and tells Hellscout that Doom really isnt a nice person, so Doom tries to kill it. This alarms Hellscout & Gornkai, so Doom attacks them and steals their ship. As he drives to Earth he purges the Franklin avatar from his system. As its erased, everything that Doom has created with its program dissolves, including his mother. Some time later, Doom emerges from the Negative Zone chamber in the Fantastic Fours headquarters. 

References: 
No BTS for the Fantastic Four, as theyre not mentioned. Its just their house that makes an appearance. 

This can take as long or as short as we need it to, from start to finish, in eraltion to Earth-time. After all, he's going through the Negative Zone. 

Some placement suggestions: 

LANCER/SAMANTHA DUNBAR 
 
DOOM2 3 
*DOOM3 1 
*DOOM3 2 

HELLSCOUT/KENNETH TENNYSON 
 
FF3 44 
*DOOM3 2 
*DOOM3 3 

GORNKAI 
 
FF3 44 
*DOOM3 2 
*DOOM3 3 

TENNYSON, JACOB 
FF3 41 
*DOOM3 3 

RICHARDS, REED | PLANET DOOM (or is that counter-earth? Or heroes reborn world?) 
DOOM3 2 

OCTAVIUS, GEN. OTTO | PLANET DOOM (same here?) 
*DOOM3 1 

DOCTOR DOOM/VICTOR VON DOOM 
 
TB 52 
*DOOM3 1 
*DOOM3 2 
*DOOM3 3 
FF3 50 


-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Sep 05, 2007 5:01 am 
By Enda80

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... 1&start=15 

Don Campbell discusses this conundrum (i.e. Cynthia Von Doom).

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Subject: Hulk: Nightmerica 1-6

Sep 06, 2007 2:30 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Hulk: Nightmerica #1 
Published: August, 2003 

Appearances: 
Hulk(Bruce Banner), Cobalt Man(Ralph Roberts), Chrissie Cutler, 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22 
Hulk fights the Cobalt Man then jumps away and eventually falls asleep. He wakes up as Bruce Banner, finds a shirt, and comes across Chrissie. Suddenly, a robot attacks! Bruce turns into the Hulk, who pummels the robot into pieces. After the Hulk calms down and turns back into Bruce, Chrissie tells him that the robot was after her, because shes on the run from Wright-Armstrong. They team up. 

Hulk: Nightmerica #2 
Published: September, 2003 

Appearances: 
Hulk(Bruce Banner), Chrissie Cutler, Deadbird, Intergalactic-BTS, Stealth-OP 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22 
Bruce & Chrissie find Manny Joslins skeleton and decide to find the rest of Chrissies friends before they head off to Nightmerica.(Wright-Armstrongs secret human testing laboratory) They buy some clothes and see Stealth(another Nightmerica experiment) fly overhead. They drive to Illinois and find Deadbird. They buy an RV and head for East St. Louis. 

References: 
We see Stealths shadow, but not her, placing her just off panel. 

Chrissie is in contact with Intergalactic, but he makes no appearance here, giving him a BTS. 

Hulk: Nightmerica #3 
Published: October, 2003 

Appearances: 
Hulk(Bruce Banner), Chrissie Cutler, Deadbird, Manifest Destiny(Stuart Wendel) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22 
Bruce & the gang tool around East St. Louis until they find Manifest Destiny. 

Hulk: Nightmerica #4 
Published: November, 2003 

Appearances: 
Hulk(Bruce Banner), Chrissie Cutler, Deadbird, Manifest Destiny(Stuart Wendel), Stealth, Mrs. Gray 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22 
Bruce & the gang drive to Nebraska and pick up Mrs. Gray. Stealth attacks, but they escape. 

Hulk: Nightmerica #5 
Published: March, 2004 

Appearances: 
Hulk(Bruce Banner), Chrissie Cutler, Deadbird, Manifest Destiny(Stuart Wendel), Mrs. Gray, Intergalactic(Eduardo Sposato), Stealth 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22 
Bryuce & the gang make it to Nightmerica, where they meet Intergalactic. Outside, Stealth waits to attack. 

Hulk: Nightmerica #6 
Published: May, 2004 

Appearances: 
Hulk(Bruce Banner), Chrissie Cutler, Deadbird, Manifest Destiny(Stuart Wendel), Mrs. Gray, Intergalactic(Eduardo Sposato), Stealth 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22 
Theres a big fight, Stealth kills Deadbird, Chrissie is revealed to have powers, Stealth & Chrissie are revealed to be sisters, the Nightmerica gang is captured by the Feds, and the Hulk escapes. 

Ive gone light on the descriptions here. If youre interested, theres a more detailed write-up in Paul B.s Calendar. 

Speaking of the Calendar, Paul has this mini placed after the Jenkins run & before the Jones run on Hulk. I happen to agree with that, so 

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
 
H: G 6 
*H: NM 1 
*H: NM 2 
*H: NM 3 
*H: NM 4 
*H: NM 5 
*H: NM 6 
H3 33-FB 
 

COBALT MAN/RALPH ROBERTS 
 
DEF 43 
*H: NM 1 

CUTLER, CHRISSIE 
H: NM 1 
H: NM 2 
H: NM 3 
H: NM 4 
H: NM 5 
H: NM 6 

DEADBIRD 
H: NM 2 
H: NM 3 
H: NM 4 
H: NM 5 
H: NM 6 

MANIFEST DESTINY/STUART WENDEL 
H: NM 3 
H: NM 4 
H: NM 5 
H: NM 6 

MRS. GRAY 
H: NM 4 
H: NM 5 
H: NM 6 

INTERGALACTIC/EDUARDO SPOSATO 
H: NM 2-BTS 
H: NM 5 
H: NM 6 

STEALTH 
H: NM 2-OP 
H: NM 4 
H: NM 5 
H: NM 6

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Subject: Marville 1-7

Sep 05, 2007 2:39 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Marville #1 
Published: November, 2002 

Appearances: 
the Marvel(KalAOL, Al), Ted Turner, Jane Fonda, Alan Greenspan, Mickey the Cab Driver, Paul Levitz-BTS 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg23 
Its 3,000 years in the future when a meteor shower begins. Ted Turner & Jane Fonda decide to send their son KalAOL back in time to save him from the Earth being destroyed. He and his dog AOLstro arrive in the present day and are almost run over by a taxi, so he and the driver become friends. KalAOL decides to become a super hero, even though he has no super powers. To pay the fare, they stop by at the bank, where Alan Greenspan tells him that his account wont be active for another 3,000 years. A burglar steals one hundred million dollars(kept in a bag for easy access) and runs out the door, but he slips and falls. A police officer gives KalAOL the reward money, which is one hundred million dollars. KalAOL and Mickey go to her place, where they print out KalAOLs birth certificate & social security card off the computer. Later that day, they decide to see a broadway play and stop a mugger(the bank robber from earlier in the day) from stealing from a ticket scalper, who sells them tickets. They get kicked out of the play and are mugged by the bank robber, who steals the dog. The bank robber falls again, and another police officer gives him another one hundred million dollar reward. Meanwhile in the future, Ted & Jane realize that the meteor shower didnt destroy the Earth after all. 

References: 
In 3,000 years, Ted Turner will have already bought everything on the planet, and will have sold it all to AOL. Hes still alive, and still married to Jane Fonda, whos also still alive. Marvel & DC have merged, and Paul Levitz runs both, whos also still alive. 3,000 years in the future. 

Apparently Alan Greenspan works as a loan officer in a bank, and keeps bags of one hundred million dollars lying around. 

Also apparently, the police force have issued a one hundred million dollar reward for a clumsy bank robber. Having escaped in the day hes captured, the police force have issued another one hundred million dollar reward for the same guy. The police also keep bags full of one hundred millions dollars in every squad car(apparently), just in case this idiot is caught. 

According to the introduction, Bill Jemas thinks comic books are silly. 

Marville #2 
Published: December, 2002 

Appearances: 
the Marvel(KalAOL, Al), Mickey the Cab Driver, Peter David, Rush Limbaugh, Lucy the Cop, Batman, Iron Man, Black Panther, Daredevil, Spider-Man, Punisher, Kingpin(Spike Lee), Ted Turner, Jane Fonda 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg23 
Al & Mickey are in Central Park when Peter David stumbles across and begs for money. Rush Limbaugh tries to talk Al out of giving it to him, but he gives Peter the money anyway. Al decides to give money to poor people, but is stopped by Batman, Iron Man, and the Black Panther. Batman beats up a poor person, Iron Man kills one by vaporizing him, and then Batman & Iron Man beat a mans head into his ribcage together. Black Panther & Iron Man cracks some poor peoples heads together, and Batman rips off someones arm and beats him with it. Rush Limbaugh stops by and incapacitates the heroes with his golden microphone. Al & Mickey go to the police station to give a statement and meet Lucy the Cop. Al decides to fight crime, and calls himself the Marvel. Together they go out and arrest someone whos trying to hire a prostitute, who turns state evidence on the big boss. They go to the court house and meet attorney Matt Murdock, who tells them that the person responsible for all crime is the Kingpin. Later, they meet Spider-Man who takes them to the Kingpins place, where they meet the Punisher. Together they arrest the Kingpin, who turns out to be Spike Lee. Meanwhile in the future, Ted & Jane decide to send the time machine to the past. In the present, the time machine appears. 

References: 
Apparently, Iron Man has no problem killing poor people by vaporizing them. Neither do Batman or the Black Panther, by ripping their limbs off and beating them to death with their own appendages. 

Also apparently, the Kingpin lives in a building with a giant neon sign on it that says Kingpin Headquarters, which is right behind a bowling alley called Kingpin Lanes. Oh, and the Kingpin is Spike Lee, not Wilson Fisk. 

Marville #3 
Published: January, 2003 

Appearances: 
the Marvel(KalAOL, Al), Mickey the Cab Driver, Lucy the Cop, Jack 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22 
Als depressed, so he, Mickey, & Lucy decide to travel back in time to the beginning of creation and ask God what gives?. They do, and meet him, who tells them to call him Jack. They go swimming to watch molecules form while Jack gives a lecture. They stick around a bit and watch fish form. 

References: 
For some reason, the script is printed over the art. Theres no dialogue bubbles, its just the script, complete with scene descriptions. Next issue is back to normal. 

For some reason, all three of them can fit in the time machine. But in issue 1, it could only fit one person. 

Marville #4 
Published: February, 2003 

Appearances: 
the Marvel(KalAOL, Al), Mickey the Cab Driver, Lucy the Cop, Jack 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22 
Al, Mickey, Lucy, & Jack travel forward in time to watch fish grow legs. They meet some talking dinosaurs, and watch them get eaten by other dinosaurs. Later, they come across some otters. They decide to go farther into the future. 

References: 
Apparently, some species of dinosaur could speak perfect English. 

Marville #5 
Published: March, 2003 

Appearances: 
the Marvel(KalAOL, Al), Mickey the Cab Driver, Lucy the Cop, Jack, Wolverine 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22 
In 1000,000 BC, Al, Mickey, Lucy, & Jack meet a teenage caveman Wolverine. They watch as he kills an animal for dinner, then meet up with his caveman buddies and eat. Later, they watch a war party and discover the whole reason for fighting, originally, was to get girls. After the war is over, Wolverine declares World Peace. The gang jumps back in the time machine and Jack lectures them on the history of fighting, religion, and politics. 

References: 
Thats right, Wolverine was a teenage caveman in 100,000 BC! 

Marville #6 
Published: April, 2003 

Appearances: 
the Marvel(KalAOL, Al) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22 
Al recaps the previous five issues as a pitch for a comic book to Marvel. Theres nothing new here except for page 22. 

References: 
Im confused. Why did I buy this series in the first place, and why do I still have them? 

Marville #7 
Published: July, 2003 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22 
Welcome to Epic Comics! Bill Jemas gives you, the comic reader, a guide on what he looks for in a comic. He then gives you, the comic creator, the submission procedures for writers & artists. He also lays out the Payment Schedule & Sales Incentive Plan, and the Submission Policy. Yay! 

References: 
Thats right, this isnt a comic. Its an open letter to YOU from Bill. Theres no character appearances, because theres no story. 

So. 

We have a series where the Kingpin of Crime is Spike Lee. Wolverine was a teenager in 100,000 BC. Iron Man kills poor people, and Batman & Black Panther beat people to death with their own limbs. 

The Handbook(A-Z #6) lists the Marvel(KalAOL, Al) as a character, and cites his team-up with the GLA. I have no idea where that happened, but it wasnt here. 

Is this series canon? U-Decide!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Sep 05, 2007 5:03 pm 
By jephyork
Director

He didn't "team up" with the GLA -- he appeared in a one-panel cameo, along with a whole bunch of other characters, saying "no" to the GLA's membership offer. 

IIRC, the Handbook states that The Marvel's pre-GLA adventures may not have been in Earth-616. I'm inclined to change that to "obviously weren't". 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Sep 06, 2007 2:44 am 
By dimadick

But wouldn't they still be canon for him if he gets a listing through the GLA cameo?

			*	*	*

Sep 06, 2007 7:05 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

What does "canon for him" mean? 


watching: today

			*	*	*

Sep 06, 2007 9:37 am 
By Somebody
Director

My guess? 

THE MARVEL/KALAOL 
(born on Earth-AOL) 
MARVILLE 1 
(sent to Earth-Marville) 
MARVILLE 1 
MARVILLE 2 
MARVILLE 3 
MARVILLE 4 
MARVILLE 5 
MARVILLE 6 
(travels to Earth-616) 
GLA (whatever) 

Would be what he meant.

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Subject: Namor v2 1-12

Sep 05, 2007 12:19 pm 
By Frederic Krier

Namor vol. II, 1 
June 2003 

Untitled 
W: Bill Jemas and Andi Watson P: Salvador Larroca I: Danny Miki 

Appearances: Namor, Sandra 'Sandy' Pierce, Clarissa Pierce, Fen, Thakorr, Korra, Bobo, Beemer 

Pg.1-19: The early 1920's. The Pacific Northwest. A young girl named Sandy meets an exotic-looking naked boy who introduces himself as Namor. They play for a few hours, until Sandy's mom takes her girl away. Namor returns to his home Atlantis, where he is welcomed by his mother, Princess Fen, and a bit later, by his grand-mother, Queen Korra. Namor expresses his wish to join his grand-father, Emperor Thakorr, and the Trident Team in defending the Atlantean tuna round-up from sharks, but is told to wait until he's grown up. 
Pg.20-25: Years later. Namor, now a young man, still wishes to join the Tri-Team, but has to help with the tuna round-up instead. However, he and his cousin Bobo have to save a few babies from sharks, as the Tri-Team fails to hold them back. Bobo is attacked by a shark. 

Namor vol. II, 2 
June 2003 

Untitled 
W: Bill Jemas and Andi Watson P: Salvador Larroca I: Danny Miki 

Appearances: Namor, Sandra 'Sandy' Pierce, Thakorr, Korra, Bobo, Bobo's dad, Beemer 

Namor manages to save Bobo and kill the shark. Queen Korra lets the members of the Tri-Team, particularly her grandson Beemer, know how angry she is about their failure, but praises Bobo's and Namor's heroism. Afterwards, at the scaling station, some bickering takes place, particularly between Beemer and Namor, which Namor ends by dumping fish entrails on his opponent. After leaving Bobo with his dad, Namor returns to the coast, where he competes with some surfers. He is then surprised to see Sandy, now a sixteen-year old girl. He reveals that he's also sixteen years old and that he comes from Atlantis. Sandy invites him to a memorial day mixer, later in the evening. 

Namor vol. II, 3 
July 2003 

Untitled 
W: Bill Jemas and Andi Watson P: Salvador Larroca I: Danny Miki 

Appearances: Namor, Sandra 'Sandy' Pierce, Bobo, Beemer, Troy Trenters, Elizabeth Kendal 

Namor tells Bobo about his surface encounter, and convinces his cousin to join him for the mixer. Bobo is able to breathe outside of the ocean thanks to a 'gill scarf'. They both meet Sandy at the beach, but Bobo leaves after seeing Namor put on a suit. The evening does not go well, as Namor, who still doesn't really know his own strength, nearly breaks Troy (the partner of Sandy's friend Liz)'s hand. Namor and Sandy have an argument on the beach, during which Namor reveals that he's royalty. They make up and lose their clothes to go swimming. 

Namor vol. II, 4 
August 2003 

Untitled 
W: Bill Jemas and Andi Watson P: Salvador Larroca I: Danny Miki 

Appearances: Namor, Sandra 'Sandy' Pierce, Henry Pierce, Clarissa Pierce, Bobo, Bobo's dad, Korra, Beemer, Elizabeth Kendal, Troy Trenters, Alex Trenters 

After having dinner with Sandy's parents, as well as Troy and his father Alex, Sandy and Liz leave towards Atlantis. They can breathe underwater thanks to some sort of oxygen worm. Liz however does not cope so well with breathing underwater, but is comforted by Bobo, who's obviously attracted by her. Meanwhile, Namor gives Sandy a tour of Atlantis. After returning home, Sandy has an argument with her parents, during which her father spots an oil spot on her dress. He believes that she just saved his business. 

Namor vol. II, 5 
October 2003 

Untitled 
W: Bill Jemas and Andi Watson P: Salvador Larroca I: Danny Miki 

Appearances: Namor, Sandra 'Sandy' Pierce, Henry Pierce, Fen, Bobo, Bobo's dad, Elizabeth Kendal, Thakorr, Korra, Zarina, Namorita, Byrrah, Dara, Beemer, Alex Trenters 

Sandy's dad launches into business schemes immediately after Sandy shows him reluctantly where she and Namor had been swimming. Namor, meanwhile, tells Fen about his new girlfriend. She suggests to invite Sandy and Liz to the birthday party for Namorita, Namor's second cousin. During the party, the two surface girls are introduced to the royal family of Atlantis. However, Bobo and Namor return with the girls to the surface, as Liz has issues with Atlantean food. Bobo's mother Zarina is shocked by her son's love for a surface girl. Namor wonders why Sandy hasn't introduced him to her parents yet. The next day Henry Pierce and his new business partner Alex, inaugurate an offshore oil rig. 

Namor vol. II, 6 
November 2003 

Untitled 
W: Bill Jemas and Andi Watson P: Salvador Larroca I: Danny Miki 

Appearances: Namor, Sandra 'Sandy' Pierce, Henry Pierce, Clarissa Pierce, Bobo, Zarina, Beemer, Elizabeth Kendal, Tim Kendal, Maria Kendal, Beemer, Thakorr, Korra, Troy Trenters, Alex Trenters, Hunt, Lyle, Milford, Lewis 

As the new rig fails to produce oil, Henry Pierce is put under pressure by his business partner Alex Trenters, his creditor Lyle, and his workers. The next day, Liz' parents spot her daughter and Sandy in the company of Namor and Bobo. They pass the news to Sandy's mom, who's worried about the strange men her daughter keeps company with. Sandy agrees to have Namor come for dinner on Friday night. The dinner does not go well, until Namor reveals that he's a prince and even helps break up an interruption by striking workers. Namor tells Henry Pierce the exact spot where to drill for oil. He convinces the royal couple that Pierce wants to drain the ocean of the oil, meeting Atlantean interests. Only Beemer opposes making a deal with Pierce. A new oil rig is put into function one week later at the spot Namor indicated. 

Namor vol. II, 7 
December 2003 

In Deep, Part 1 
W: Bill Jemas and Andi Watson P: Pat Olliffe I: Livesay 

Appearances: Namor, Sandra 'Sandy' Pierce, Henry Pierce, Clarissa Pierce, Bobo, Elizabeth Kendal, Beemer, Thakorr, Korra, Fen, Zarina 

Despite the fact that his wife accusing him of letting his daughter mate with an Atlantean savage, Henry Pierce accompanies his daughter to meet the royal family of Atlantis. While oil leaks present a problem for the Atlanteans, Pierce assures the royal family that these are entirely normal at such an early stage. Namor puts Beemer into place, who's still opposed to the deal. Meanwhile, at Claris Point, Liz tells Bobo that they cannot continue to see each other. 

Namor vol. II, 8 
December 2003 

In Deep, Part 2 
W: Bill Jemas and Andi Watson P: Pat Olliffe I: Livesay 

Appearances: Namor, Sandra 'Sandy' Pierce, Henry Pierce, Clarissa Pierce, Bobo, Bobo's dad. Elizabeth Kendal, Tim Kendal, Maria Kendal, Beemer, Alex Trenters, Lyle, Max, Conrad Heinze, Bridget Heinze, Teneel, Thakorr, Korra, Zarina 

Liz explains to Bobo that her parents won't allow a continuation of their relationship. Beemer discovers that the drill worsens the oil spill. Meanwhile, Namor is introduced to the rich and famous during a dinner party at the Pierce mansion. Liz, who's also at the party, explains to Sandy why she had to leave Bobo: because her endebted parents want her to marry rich. After the party, Namor returns to Atlantis, where he's told about the growing problems caused by the leaked oil. Bobo tells him about his split with Liz. Bobo then wants to talk with his father about it, who reminds him not to forget his origins. Namor returns to the surface, where he has an argument with Sandy, who feels Namor is now more interested in doing business with her father than in her. Namor sends her to bed, and proceeds to discuss the ecological problems with her father. Afterwards, Sandy refuses to come out of her bedroom, and Namor returns to the beach where he comforts the weeping and freezing Liz. Meanwhile, back in Atlantis, Queen Korra fears that the oil spill may well destroy the city. 

Namor vol. II, 9 
January 2004 

In Deep, Part 3 
W: Bill Jemas and Andi Watson P: Pat Olliffe I: Livesay 

Appearances: Namor, Sandra 'Sandy' Pierce, Henry Pierce, Clarissa Pierce, Bobo, Elizabeth Kendal, Tim Kendal, Maria Kendal, Beemer, Alex Trenters, Troy Trenters, Lyle, Max, Conrad Heinze, Bridget Heinze, Thakorr, Korra, Zarina, Namorita 

When Namor prefers explaining technical details about the oil rig to Bridget Heinze instead of going for a swim with her, Sandy angrily tells him that he turned into her father. Later, Henry and Sandy Pierce are present as Namor supervises the reparation work of the oil rig. Sandy tries to make him jealous by dancing with Beemer. Namor angrily relates this to Bobo. He also tells Bobo to not leave Liz. He then joins Sandy again, and they make up. Bobo returns to the surface and confronts Liz, who is afraid that Troy is about to propose to her. In Atlantis, Beemer tries to grab Sandy again, but is brushed off. As Sandy and her father return to the surface, Beemer attacks them, hitting Henry with a trident and capturing Sandy in a net. 

Namor vol. II, 10 
February 2004 

In Deep, Part 4 
W: Bill Jemas and Andi Watson BD: Manuel Gutierrez A: Sandu Florea 

Appearances: Namor, Sandra 'Sandy' Pierce, Henry Pierce, Bobo, Elizabeth Kendal, Tim Kendal, Maria Kendal, Troy Trenters, Beemer, Thakorr, Korra, Zarina 

Liz refuses Troy's marriage proposal. Meanwhile, in Atlantis, the wounded Henry Pierce survives a shark attack, and is found by the Atlanteans. He tells them about Beemer's attack. Zarina orders Bobo to choose his brother's side over Namor's. Beemer, who is helped by the other members of the Tri-Team launches an assault on the oil rig. He leaves Sandy beneath the oil drill and the Tri-Team members tell the workers on the rig to launch the drill. Namor and Bobo manage to save Sandy, and Namor threatens to kill Beemer. 

Namor vol. II, 11 
March 2004 

In Deep, Part 5 
W: Bill Jemas and Andi Watson P: Joe Bennett I: Livesay 

Appearances: Namor, Sandra 'Sandy' Pierce, Henry Pierce, Clarissa Pierce, Bobo, Elizabeth Kendal, Beemer, Thakorr, Korra, Zarina 

Namor and Beemer fight, and manage to hurt Bobo in the process. The fight is interrupted by the arrival of Emperor Thakorr. As always in situations like this, the Atlantean public opinion begins to wonder about Namor's loyalty to his people, as he tried to kill his own cousin in order to save a dry girl. Sandy is happily reunited with her father. After they return to the surface, her parents tell her to stay out of Atlantis for a while, until tempers cool off. Later, Liz, who's about to leave, tells Sandy that she's pregnant from Bobo. Still later, Sandy tells this to Bobo and Namor, who came back to the surface. Bobo decides to stay on the surface and wait for Liz to come back. Back in Atlantis, Thakorr decides to continue to operate the rig, but Zarina tells Beemer to destroy the well, in order to unite Atlantis against the surface dwellers. Beemer and the Tri-Team proceed to blow up the rig. 

Namor vol. II, 12 
May 2004 

In Deep, Conclusion 
W: Bill Jemas and Andi Watson P: Joe Bennett and Paul Azaceta I: Livesay and Rodney Ramos 

Appearances: Namor, Sandra 'Sandy' Pierce, Henry Pierce, , Bobo, Beemer, Alex Trenters, Conrad Heinze, Lyle, Thakorr, Korra, Zarina, Fen, Askid 

The destruction of the oil rig proves to be a major ecological disaster, with oil spreading both throughout Atlantis and on the coast. Namor, Bobo and Sandy return to Atlantis to help the population. Namor and Korra prevent lynch murders of Zarina and Beemer. It is decided to evacuate Atlantis and move to the South Pacific. Sandy returns to the surface and is shocked to hear from her father that he plans to build a new rig. She rejoins the Atlanteans, and decides to stay with Namor and the Atlanteans. Bobo however stays on the surface, and waits for Liz. 


Comments: A lot of continuity issues in this series: 
1)Atlantis is located just a few miles of the U.S. Pacific Northwest coast. Huh? Of course, it now has moved quite a lot over the last few decades, but this is one location that we never heard of before. Not to mention that the home of Namor's people was situated in the Antarctic sea, both in his origin story and in the 1950s childhood stories. Maybe it can be explained away as an Atlantean outpost, which they use during the summer to catch tuna? 
2)All Atlantean superior scientific knowledge is conveniently forgotten 
3)On the other hand, the Atlanteans must have forgotten all about these fancy gill scarves they used to have. 
4)The most perplexing is the appearance of Namorita, Byrrah and Dara, three little girls who are second cousins to Namor. Byrrah and Dara are of course male in all their previous appearances, and at least Byrrah is about the same age as Namor. Namorita, a very small blue-skinned and blue-haired girl with a pigtail is apparently meant to be the future New Warrior, who of course wasn't born yet in the 1930s. My proposal would be to ignore these appearances, resp. establish these three as previously unseen distant female relatives of Namor. 
5)The existence of Atlantis seems to be common knowledge. 
6)Namor seems to be quite experienced with the surface world at the end of this series, as opposed to his first published adventures. 
It's weird that the 50s childhood stories are more continuity conscious than this (despite the retcon in Sub-Mariner Comics #39, in which a teenage Namor first meets Namora, which contradicts Namora's very first appearance), at a time when the concept hadn't really been developed yet. Still, as the All-New OHOTMU Update refers to this series, it looks like Marvel considers it to be canon. 

Placement suggestions: The OHOTMU bibliography puts #1 Pg. 1-19 before the 1950s childhood stories, and the remainder of the series just afterwards. I'm suggesting a slightly different order: 
In #1 here, Namor spends hours outside of the water, which means this has to come after Sub-Mariner Comics 35/2, in which Namor is surprised to learn he can do that. From the artwork, I would say he's 9 or 10 years old, which would fit in with the exile for his first ten years  since he's celebrating his 10th birthday in Sub-Mariner Comics 36/2, I'd place it after that as well. Of course, this means that the early 1920s time reference doesn't work. 
The remainder of the series has to take place before Sub-Mariner Comics 41/2, as it's clearly stated here that Namor is 16 years old, whereas in the last two fifties stories he's supposed to be seventeen. 
This leaves us with: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 

SAGASM 1-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 32 
SAGASM 2-FB-FB 
FF:SE-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 32 
N 20-FB 
TTA 96-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 35/2 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 36/2 
**N2 1 (1 - 19) 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 37/2 
SAGASM 2-FB-FB 
YOUNG MEN 24/3-FB 
SAGASM 2-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 38/2 
SAGASM 2-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 38/2 
SAGASM 2-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 38/2 
SAGASM 2-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 38/2 
SAGASM 2-FB 
SUB-M 38-FB 
SAGASM 2-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 39/2 
SAGASM 2-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 39/2 
SAGASM 2-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 39/2 
ORDER 6-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 40/2 
**N2 1 (20 -25) 
**N2 2 
**N2 3 
**N2 4 
**N2 5 
**N2 6 
**N2 7 
**N2 8 
**N2 9 
**N2 10 
**N2 11 
**N2 12 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 41/2 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 42/2 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 32 
SAGASM 2-FB 
SAGASM 2-FB 
MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY 

PRINCESS FEN [ATLANTEAN] 
... 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 32 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 35/2 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 36/2 
**N2 1 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 37/2 
SAGASM 2-FB-FB 
SAGASM 2-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 38/2 
SAGASM 2-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 38/2 
SAGASM 2-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 38/2 
SAGASM 2-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 38/2 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 39/2 
**N2 5 
**N2 7 
**N2 12 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 41/2 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 42/2 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 32 
SAGASM 2-FB 
MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY 

EMPEROR THAKORR [ATLANTEAN] (I can't find him in the MCP???) 
... 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 32 
N 20-FB 
**N2 1 
SAGASM 2-FB-FB 
SAGASM 2-FB 
**N2 1 
**N2 2 
**N2 5 
**N2 6 
**N2 7 
**N2 8 
**N2 9 
**N2 10 
**N2 11 
**N2 12 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 42/2 
SAGASM 2-FB 
MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY 

Characters to add: 

ASKID [Atlantean] 

**N2 12 

BEEMER [Atlantean] 

**N2 1 
**N2 2 
**N2 3 
**N2 4 
**N2 5 
**N2 6 
**N2 7 
**N2 8 
**N2 9 
**N2 10 
**N2 11 
**N2 12 

BOBO [Atlantean] 

**N2 1 
**N2 2 
**N2 3 
**N2 4 
**N2 5 
**N2 6 
**N2 7 
**N2 8 
**N2 9 
**N2 10 
**N2 11 
**N2 12 

KENDAL, ELIZABETH 'LIZ' 

**N2 3 
**N2 4 
**N2 5 
**N2 6 
**N2 7 
**N2 8 
**N2 9 
**N2 10 
**N2 11 

PIERCE, CLARISSA 

**N2 1 
**N2 4 
**N2 6 
**N2 7 
**N2 8 
**N2 9 
**N2 11 

PIERCE, HENRY 

**N2 4 
**N2 5 
**N2 6 
**N2 7 
**N2 8 
**N2 9 
**N2 10 
**N2 11 
**N2 12 

PIERCE, SANDRA 'SANDY' 

**N2 1 
**N2 2 
**N2 3 
**N2 4 
**N2 5 
**N2 6 
**N2 7 
**N2 8 
**N2 9 
**N2 10 
**N2 11 
**N2 12 

QUEEN KORRA [Atlantean] 

**N2 1 
**N2 2 
**N2 4 
**N2 5 
**N2 6 
**N2 7 
**N2 8 
**N2 9 
**N2 10 
**N2 11 
**N2 12 

TENEEL [Atlantean] 

**N2 8 

ZARINA [Atlantean] 

**N2 5 
**N2 6 
**N2 7 
**N2 8 
**N2 9 
**N2 10 
**N2 11 
**N2 12

			*	*	*

Sep 05, 2007 2:15 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

This was co-written by Jemas? No wonder why I steered clear of it... 


Frederic Krier wrote:
>>>
1)Atlantis is located just a few miles of the U.S. Pacific Northwest coast. Huh? Of course, it now has moved quite a lot over the last few decades, but this is one location that we never heard of before. Not to mention that the home of Namor's people was situated in the Antarctic sea, both in his origin story and in the 1950s childhood stories. Maybe it can be explained away as an Atlantean outpost, which they use during the summer to catch tuna? 
<<<

Just because the geography is off shouldn't be a problem.(to me) Explaining it as an outpost works in my mind. 


Frederic Krier wrote:
>>>
4)The most perplexing is the appearance of Namorita, Byrrah and Dara, three little girls who are second cousins to Namor. Byrrah and Dara are of course male in all their previous appearances, and at least Byrrah is about the same age as Namor. Namorita, a very small blue-skinned and blue-haired girl with a pigtail is apparently meant to be the future New Warrior, who of course wasn't born yet in the 1930s. My proposal would be to ignore these appearances, resp. establish these three as previously unseen distant female relatives of Namor.
<<<

I agree that these can't be the previously established characters. 'Other' relatives of Namor's with the same names, I like it. 


Frederic Krier wrote:
>>>
6)Namor seems to be quite experienced with the surface world at the end of this series, as opposed to his first published adventures.
<<<

...yeah. This could almost work with his first appearance, where he thought the human divers in deep sea suits were robots. But hey, I'm willing to squint a little bit to make things fit. 


Frederic Krier wrote:
>>>
It's weird that the 50s childhood stories are more continuity conscious than this (despite the retcon in Sub-Mariner Comics #39, in which a teenage Namor first meets Namora, which contradicts Namora's very first appearance), at a time when the concept hadn't really been developed yet. Still, as the All-New OHOTMU Update refers to this series, it looks like Marvel considers it to be canon. 
<<<

Well, that's Jemas for you. 


Frederic Krier wrote:
>>>
Placement suggestions: The OHOTMU bibliography puts #1 Pg. 1-19 before the 1950s childhood stories, and the remainder of the series just afterwards. I'm suggesting a slightly different order: 
In #1 here, Namor spends hours outside of the water, which means this has to come after Sub-Mariner Comics 35/2, in which Namor is surprised to learn he can do that. From the artwork, I would say he's 9 or 10 years old, which would fit in with the exile for his first ten years  since he's celebrating his 10th birthday in Sub-Mariner Comics 36/2, I'd place it after that as well. Of course, this means that the early 1920s time reference doesn't work. 
The remainder of the series has to take place before Sub-Mariner Comics 41/2, as it's clearly stated here that Namor is 16 years old, whereas in the last two fifties stories he's supposed to be seventeen. 
<<<

Agreed. Good job!

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 06, 2007 1:34 am 
By dimadick

"The most perplexing is the appearance of Namorita, Byrrah and Dara, three little girls who are second cousins to Namor. Byrrah and Dara are of course male in all their previous appearances, and at least Byrrah is about the same age as Namor. Namorita, a very small blue-skinned and blue-haired girl with a pigtail is apparently meant to be the future New Warrior, who of course wasn't born yet in the 1930s. My proposal would be to ignore these appearances, resp. establish these three as previously unseen distant female relatives of Namor." 

"I agree that these can't be the previously established characters. 'Other' relatives of Namor's with the same names, I like it." 

So do we have Namorita I, Byrrah I and Dara I with a note as to the gender of the last two or do you suggest they get no listing as one-shot characters?

			*	*	*

Sep 06, 2007 5:59 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

dimadick wrote:
>>>
So do we have Namorita I, Byrrah I and Dara I with a note as to the gender of the last two or do you suggest they get no listing as one-shot characters?
<<<

We wouldn't need notes for their gender. 


watching: today

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

Sep 06, 2007 10:23 am 
By Frederic Krier

And it would be Byrrah II, since Namor's cousin Byrrah appears in 1950s childhood stories, that precede the female Byrrah's appearance here.

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Subject: Fantastic Four:the Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! 1&2

Sep 03, 2007 1:13 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Fantastic Four: the Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #1 
Published: February, 2001 

Appearances: 
Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, Thing, Human Torch II, Crystal, Dr. Doom, 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22 
The Fantastic Four return home and are greeted by the press. Someone shoots at them as a droid watches. Meanwhile, another robot drone enters the Baxter Building and takes pictures, transmitting them, and is destroyed by the buildings security system. A short time later, Reed checks the buildings security systems, afraid that their time away has left the place vulnerable to attack. Meanwhile, Dr. Doom prepares to attack the Fantastic Four. Meanwhile, the FF leave to visit Franklin at Agatha Harkness place, but theyre shot out of the sky on the way. Meanhwile, Dooms men invade the Baxter Building and take a bunch of stuff. The FF take a train back to the Baxter Building, where the reactivated Super-Android is waiting to pummel them. After a fight, the Invisible Girl destroys it. Reed reveals that it would be too dangerous to visit Franklin, as their every move is being watched. 

References: 
The FF are returning from issue 100, as told to us through an editors caption. Its stated several times throughout this series that this mini takes place between issues 100 & 101 of Fantastic Four. Placement should be fairly straightforward for the FF then, as all of them have 100 & 101 together in their chronologies. 

An editors note tells us this is the same Super-Android as the one in FF 79. 

Fantastic Four: the Worlds Greatest Comics Magazine! #2 
Published: March, 2001 

Appearances: 
Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, Thing, Human Torch II, Crystal, Dr. Doom, Namor the Sub-Mariner, Lord Vashti 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22 
Ben, Johnny, & Crystal are grocery shopping when theyre called back to the Baxter Building. Reed has traced energy signatures from last issues attack to the Mad Thinker so they go to investigate.(Crystal stays behind) Meanwhile, Doom checks out the stuff stolen from his invasion of the Baxter Building, and sends a Sentry robot to Atlantis. Elsewhere, the FF discover that the Mad Thinkers lair has been destroyed. Meanwhile, the Sentry robot attacks Atlantis and Namor tries to stop it, and follows it to land. Elsewhere, Crystal tells the FF about a giant robot in Bermuda so they go to investigate. Once they arrive, they try to help Namor fight the Sentry. Elsewhere, Lord Vashti discovers that Namors trumpet has been stolen. Namor & the FF destroy the Sentry, and Namor is told of the theft of his trumpet. 

References: 
Continued from last issue, to be continued in the next! 

Its a short amount of time since last issue. It could be the same day, or it could be the next. 

Some placement suggestions: 

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS 
 
FF 100 
*FFWGCM 1
*FFWGCM 2 
FF 101 
 

THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM 
 
FF 100 
*FFWGCM 1
*FFWGCM 2 
FF 101 
 

INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUE STORM RICHARDS 
 
FF 100 
*FFWGCM 1
*FFWGCM 2 
FF 101 
 

HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM 
 
FF 100 
*FFWGCM 1
*FFWGCM 2 
FF 101 
 

CRYSTAL [INHUMAN] 
 
FF 100 
*FFWGCM 1
*FFWGCM 2 
FF 101 
 

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
 
SUB-M 25 
*FFWGCM 2 
IM 25-FB 
SUB-M 26 
 

DOCTOR DOOM/VICTOR VON DOOM 
 
CA 131-BTS 
*FFWGCM 1
*FFWGCM 2 
AT 1/2 
 

VASHTI [ATLANTEAN] 
 
SUB-M 25 
*FFWGCM 2 
SUB-M 27 
 

Note: My suggestions for Namor, Vashti, & Doom are based on discussions in the Archives.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 06, 2007 1:59 pm 
By metaldragon

Thank you for finally getting to these! I never did find copies, sadly.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Subject: Muties 1-6

Sep 08, 2007 2:21 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Muties #1 
Published: April, 2002 

Appearances: 
Duncan Dunk Sebast 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: America 
Jared is a smart and withdrawn kid, and he likes Kate. Duncan is the school jock. One day, Duncan bullies Jared into writing a paper for him. Later, Jared sees Kate making out with another boy, so he gets his dads gun and opens fire in school. He kills Duncan, who turns out to be a mutant,(he stretches!) but he also accidentally kills Kate. Jareds arrested. 

Muties #2 
Published: May, 2002 

Appearances: 
Seiji Honda 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: Japan 
Seiji is a boy who can bring his toys to life, but his stepfather beats his mom. One day Seiji fights back, and he and his stepfather fall out the window. The stepfather dies, and Seiji is paralyzed. 

Muties #3 
Published: June, 2002 

Appearances: 
Riek Gukenya 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: Uganda 
Riek is in class when rebel forces kill the teacher and take the kids to their camp. They train the students to be in their army. One day, Riek discovers that he can run really, really fast, so he kills their captors. His heart cant take the strain, though, and he dies. 

Muties #4 
Published: July, 2002 

Appearances: 
Renata Nata da Lima 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: Rio de Janiero 
Jias is dating Laolo. Her parents call her a slut and kick her out of the house, so she goes to live with Laolo. She eventually realizes that hes a jerk, and shes taken in by a bouncer, Renata.(shes a mutant with strong bones!) She & Jisa grow fond of each other, but Laolo doesnt like losing one of his girls to another girl, so he and his friends gang up on Renata. 

Muties #5 
Published: August, 2002 

Appearances: 
Ankhi 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: Sweden 
Ankhi and her boyfriend like to do drugs. One day her boyfriend steals a bunch, but theyre eventually attacked to get them back. Ankhi discovers that the third eye in her forehead can blind people and she runs away, and is eventually caught by the police. A week later shes offered a government job. 

Muties #6 
Published: September, 2002 

Appearances: 
Liam 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: Ireland 
Liam has the ability to cause explosions, so hes recruited by some freedom fighters. When asked to blow up some politicians and his girlfriend, he refuses, and blows up his surroundings instead. Hes captured by the government, who tell the public that he died in the explosion. Later, hes euthanized so as not to be used as a weapon in the future. 

References: 
None of these characters have appeared anywhere else since this mini finished, so Im not sure if any of them would qualify for a listing here. If any of them did, I would say it would only be the titular characters, the mutants, which are the only ones that Ive listed above.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Subject: Spider-Mans Tangled Web 22

Sep 08, 2007 2:56 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Spider-Mans Tangled Web #22 
Published: March, 2003 

Appearances: 
Two criminals, two victims, two detectives, a captain, a lawyer, and Spider-Man-BTS.(oh, and in FlashBack) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22pn4 
Two guys are found hanging in one of Spider-Mans webs. Theyre taken to the police station, but the detectives have to get confessions, because the Spider-man Defense is popular with defense lawyers these days.(It wasnt us, it was two other guys. Spider-Man got the wrong guys) Just when theyre about to get a confession, the defense lawyer arrives and tells the suspect to shut up. Shortly afterwards, the morning newspaper is delivered to the captain 
Pg22pn5(of 5)-FB 
The newspaper shows a photograph of Spider-Man webbing the two criminals, taking place just before pg1. 

A placement suggestion, based on Paul B.s Calendar: 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
 
PUN6 37 
*TW 22-FB
*TW 22-BTS 
PPSM2 51 


Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Thread 30

Subject: Closing the Gap Update

By ADMINISTRATOR
May 28, 2007 1:55 pm 

I think I've updated the Project for all the Gap books that have been analyzed. There are still a handful of issues that remain in the wilderness. 

Here's an updated call list, with the names of those who have volunteered to provide analyses. If for some reason, you're going to be unable to follow up, please let us know, so someone else can step in for you: 

Black Panther: Panther's Prey SUBMITTED! 
Blade Vampire Hunter (Dec. 1999 - May 2000, 6-issue series) 
Blade (May 2002 - Oct. 2002, 6-issue Max imprint series) SUBMITTED! 
Fight-Man SUBMITTED! 
Legion of Night SUBMITTED! 

Is there anything else we're missing from the early 90's? 

Thanks, Guys! 


watching: a mechanical dragon

Last edited by Administrator on Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:04 pm, edited 4 times in total. 

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

May 28, 2007 4:17 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Administrator wrote:
>>>
Spider-Man Holiday Special [JLH]
<<<

Is that a different one to the one he analysed here - http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=3045?

			*	*	*

May 28, 2007 10:21 pm 
By JLH

Yeah, that should probably be listed as "analysis submitted". 

I'm still gonna do those two Blade series (three if you include the 98 Strange Tales one that got canceled before it finished). I mean, if they CAN be done, which I suppose I'll see once I read them for analyzation purposes. 

Right now I'm doing work on the various sendaways/giveaways in the Gap. I'm trying to only do ones that were promoted in Marvel comics at the moment, to at least have SOMEthing that makes them better than the standard promos: 

-Avengers Collector's Edition #1 (Sugar Babies/Charleston Chew/Sugar Daddy) 
-Marvel Collector's Edition: Ghost Rider #1 (Kay-Bee) 
-Marvel Collector's Edition: X-Men #1 (Stri-Dex) 
-Drake's Cakes series 1 #1-4 (Jubilee/Spider-Man; Spider-Man/Wolverine; Spider-Man/Wolverine/Hulk; Spider-Man/Wolverine/Hulk/Silver Surfer) 
-Drake's Cakes series 2 #1-5 (Silver Surfer; Spider-Man; Hulk; Wolverine; X-Men) 
-X-Men Premium Edition #1 (Toys R US) 
-X-Men: The Coming of Triplikill (Tony's Pizza) 
-Marvel Collector's Edition: X-Men #1-4 (Pizza Hut) 
-X-Men Creator's Choice #1-2 (Pizza Hut) 
-Real Heroes #1-4 (Domino's... just kidding) 

And the two X-Men and two Spider-Man insert books from NFL Pro Action magazine.

			*	*	*

May 29, 2007 1:51 pm 
By Starman

Not to be nitpicking or anything, but I've wondered for a long time when Contest of Champions Vol. 2 will be added. Have been eagerly looking for it every time the site has been updated, but nothing yet.

- Stefan

"Pub, ah yes. A meeting place where people attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf

			*	*	*

May 29, 2007 2:07 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Can't give you a definitive answer. Many moons ago, the board voted that our first priority was closing the Gap, and the second priority was incorporating corrections from the Forum. So that's what I've been concentrating on. 

watching: law & order

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

May 29, 2007 6:11 pm 
By Starman

Administrator wrote:
>>>
Can't give you a definitive answer. Many moons ago, the board voted that our first priority was closing the Gap,
<<<

I agree, and if I'm not misremembering, that was what I also voted for.


Administrator wrote:
>>>
and the second priority was incorporating corrections from the Forum. So that's what I've been concentrating on.
<<<

Sounds fair to me, and a good job it is. 


Administrator wrote:
>>>
watching: law & order
<<<

Watching: Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest (on rental DVD, and watching it for the first time).

- Stefan

"Pub, ah yes. A meeting place where people attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf

			*	*	*

May 30, 2007 1:37 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Administrator wrote:
>>>
Is there anything else we're missing from the early 90's? 
<<<

What about that HERO book from 1990? Am I even thinking of the right thing? And no, I don't have it... sorry. 


Administrator wrote:
>>>
Avengers Strikefile [John Simons] 
Black Panther: Panther's Prey [SKleefeld] 
Blade Vampire Hunter (Dec. 1999 - May 2000, 6-issue series) 
Blade (May 2002 - Oct. 2002, 6-issue Max imprint series) 
Century: Distant Suns [John Simons] 
Fight-Man [John Simons] 
Legion of Night [John Simons] 
<<<

...that's really all that's left of the Gap? Awesome.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

May 30, 2007 8:54 am 
By Lucifer

The first deadpool limited series is kind of in the project. But #3 and #4 only have WEASEL II/JACK HAMMER as character in it. I'd guess that at the very least deadpool himself would be in them. 

Just thought I'd point it out. 

Lucifer

			*	*	*

Jun 01, 2007 2:33 am 
By JLH

Didn't somebody do an analysis on the "Ghost Rider/Captain America: Fear" bookshelf? It's in the Gap and isn't on the site yet.

			*	*	*

Jun 02, 2007 12:05 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

I'm not seeing GR/CA: F in the archives... 

I'll check my boxes to see if I have this. This is the one by Lee Weeks, right?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Jun 02, 2007 12:24 am 
By JLH

I really could've sworn someone did it, but had they, I'm sure it'd have been added in an update. Yes, it's the Lee Weeks one, takes place right between Scarecrow's first and second appearances in GR3. 

Another Gap book that I thought someone was doing and should be on the list? TOMB OF DRACULA VOL 3. The Epic run.

			*	*	*

Jun 03, 2007 8:32 am 
By Dhall

>>>
Just thought I'd point it out. 
<<<

Thanks Lucifer, 
I've put up an analysis of Deadpool. Have you seen any other books missing/partially indexed? 

Thanks! 

Dave H

			*	*	*

Jun 04, 2007 3:23 am 
By Lucifer

Glad to help David. 

That's the only partially indexed book I ran across so far. If I find more I'll post it. 

Lucifer

			*	*	*

Jun 06, 2007 3:39 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

I found an analysis in Archive 51 by Ant-Man for Avengers Strike File, so John, don't worry about that one. 


watching: charmed

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

Jun 12, 2007 10:09 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Hey, what about ANNEX (1994) #1-4? Any reason why that wouldn't be canon? 


watching: lost

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

Jun 12, 2007 4:26 pm 
By JLH

Uhh? It wouldn't? Why would you ask? Someone did an analysis for it sometime ago, in fact...

			*	*	*

Aug 16, 2007 3:42 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

I've posted analyses for the books I could find at ChicagoCon, but I couldn't get my hands on Blade Vampire Hunter (Dec. 1999 - May 2000, 6-issue series) or Fight-Man. It looks like Annex has already been added to the Project, so as far as I can tell, these are the only two books left of the Gap. 

Yay!

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 16, 2007 5:43 pm 
By Dhall

I've posted an analysis of Fight-Man, so are we just missing: Blade Vampire Hunter (Dec. 1999 - May 2000, 6-issue series?) 

Anyone inspired to close the gap? 

Dave H.

			*	*	*

Aug 16, 2007 10:24 pm 
By JLH

I virtually just finished reading all of the Blade books and was set to analyze them this week, but it seems Col_Fury beat me to the MAX one. Kind of odd, since it's the OTHER series, the one you just mentioned, that has a Nick Fury appearance in it, which should've called to 'em like a siren to a sailor!  

That's odd. I was removed from Russ' first post... Yet, my reply where I offered to take the Blade series is still there. 

The MCP is still missing the Strange Tales Blade 3 issue aborted series. And the TOD vol 3 Epic run. And Blade Vampire Hunter #1/2.

Last edited by JLH on Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

			*	*	*

Aug 16, 2007 10:30 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Really? 

I was looking for this at ChicagoCon, mostly because Bart Sears did the artwork... I had no idea Fury made an appearance. Now I'm kind of pissed I couldn't find it.  

-edit- 

JLH wrote:
>>>
The MCP is still missing the Strange Tales Blade 3 issue aborted series. And the TOD vol 3 Epic run. And Blade Vampire Hunter #1/2.
<<<

Crap. I don't own any of those.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 17, 2007 5:54 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

JLH wrote:
>>>
That's odd. I was removed from Russ' first post... Yet, my reply where I offered to take the Blade series is still there.
<<<

Not really that odd. I only put Col_Fury's name next to that Blade series after he submitted the analysis. 


watching: gilmore girls

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

Aug 17, 2007 5:58 am 
By JLH

You used to have people down when they said they would be submitting the analysis, then would put "analysis complete" beside that.

			*	*	*

Aug 17, 2007 6:03 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Absolutely correct (well, more precisely, I think I was putting "analysis submitted," but in any case...). However, in this single case, it wouldn't have made much sense to put "analysis submitted" next to your name. 


watching: gilmore girls, still

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

Aug 17, 2007 6:29 am 
By JLH

Administrator wrote:
>>>
Absolutely correct (well, more precisely, I think I was putting "analysis submitted," but in any case...). However, in this single case, it wouldn't have made much sense to put "analysis submitted" next to your name.
<<<
 

Ohhkay... Let's start over.

I volunteered for the absent Blade books. You accepted my volunteering for them a while back. Now, for whatever reason, you don't list me as having volunteered for them. Yet, in the first post of the thread, you still list this:

>>>
Here's an updated call list, with the names of those who have volunteered to provide analyses. If for some reason, you're going to be unable to follow up, please let us know, so someone else can step in for you:
<<<

Which doesn't make sense anymore since you've seemed to have done away with the volunteering aspect and it's now just every man for himself. So, you see, mass oddness.

			*	*	*

Aug 17, 2007 2:09 pm 
By Col_Fury

So what you're saying, JLH, is that the 'Call' should look something like this: 

Black Panther: Panther's Prey SUBMITTED! 
Blade (Nov. 1998 - Jan. 1999, 3-issue series) (JLH) 
Blade Vampire Hunter #1/2 (JLH) 
Blade Vampire Hunter (Dec. 1999 - May 2000, 6-issue series) (JLH) 
Blade (May 2002 - Oct. 2002, 6-issue Max imprint series) SUBMITTED! 
Fight-Man SUBMITTED! 
Legion of Night SUBMITTED! 
Tomb of Dracula(1991 - 1992, 4-issue Epic imprint series) 

Right? That way everyone knows who's working on what, so there's no duplicated work? 

And is that the correct Tomb of Dracula?Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 17, 2007 8:52 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

JLH wrote:
>>>
Administrator wrote:
>>>
Absolutely correct (well, more precisely, I think I was putting "analysis submitted," but in any case...). However, in this single case, it wouldn't have made much sense to put "analysis submitted" next to your name.
<<<
 

Ohhkay... Let's start over.

I volunteered for the absent Blade books. You accepted my volunteering for them a while back. Now, for whatever reason, you don't list me as having volunteered for them. Yet, in the first post of the thread, you still list this:

>>>
Here's an updated call list, with the names of those who have volunteered to provide analyses. If for some reason, you're going to be unable to follow up, please let us know, so someone else can step in for you:
<<<

Which doesn't make sense anymore since you've seemed to have done away with the volunteering aspect and it's now just every man for himself. So, you see, mass oddness.
<<<


I did miss adding your name to the Blade the Vampire Hunter title when you vounteered for it, in the original thread. Mea culpa  But cut me a little slack; you volunteered for about fifty books in that thread, and I got the other 49 right  . 

But I think you're overreaching, though, to think that leaving your name off of one title means we're dropping the volunteer aspect. The volunteer names remain, on the original, original post. 

The names were removed from the first post in this thread, because so far, not a single one of the books in this thread has been analyzed by the person who volunteered for the book. Col_Fury has a post about 5 messages down on page 1 that quotes the list, as it originally appeared, and I suppose I could have let the names stand, so that it reads: 

Panther's Prey [Sean Kleefeld; ANALYSIS SUBMITTED] 

but that wouldn't make a lot of sense, since Sean didn't submit an analysis. So the names have been removed from the first post here, but Col_Fury receives credit for his analysis of Panther's Prey, in the original thread. We're still keen on the volunteer effort, and no one here has provided more assistance in that effort than you, and no one here recognizes that fact more than I. 

Thanks, and my apologies for overlooking your volunteering for Blade the Vampire Hunter. As for the Blade Max series, if you volunteered for that, my apologies on that score too, but geez, it's a job, keeping all these Blade series straight. Makes one want to throw up their hands, you know? 


watching: overboard

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

Aug 24, 2007 2:59 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Going through the Checklist, I found a few more early 90s Gap books: 

Never mind, the Gap's closed!

And then I figured, well, the Project seems to be updated to about the middle of 2004

So I started looking around. Ever since Somebody brought up the idea of a Third Gap, Ive been on-and-off trying to figure out whats missing pre-2004. I finally sat down and came up with a list, including books listed in Call for Analysis: the Gap, and those above. So for my 1000th post, heres what Ive been calling

the THIRD GAP!

ALIAS 9 (2002) SUBMITTED
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL 28 (1994) SUBMITTED
ANT-MAN'S BIG ASS CHRISTMAS (one-shot) (2000) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 27
APACHE SKIES 1-4 (2002) SUBMITTED
AVENGERS ANNUAL 2001/2 (2001) SUBMITTED
AVENGERS: CELESTIAL QUEST 3 (2002) SUBMITTED
AVENGERS: THE ULTRON IMPERATIVE (one-shot) (2001) ADDRESSED IN ARCHIVES 23-26
BLACK PANTHER V3 36-38, 49-62 (2002-2003)
BLACK WIDOW v3 PALE LITTLE SPIDER #1-3 (2002) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 65
BLACK WIDOW v4 1-6 (2004-2005) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 59
BLADE 1-6 (2002) SUBMITTED
BLAZE OF GLORY 1-4 (2000) SUBMITTED
BROTHERHOOD 5 (2001) SUBMITTED
CALL 1-4 (2003) SUBMITTED
CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE LEGEND (1996) SUBMITTED
COMBAT KELLY V2 1-9 (1972-1973) SUBMITTED
CONSPIRACY 1-2 (1998) SUBMITTED
CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS V2 1-5 (1999) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 47
DAREDEVIL/SPIDER-MAN 4 (2001) SUBMITTED
DEATHLOK V3 1-3, 5-11 (1999-2000) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 67
DOOM v3 THE EMPEROR RETURNS #1-3 (2002) SUBMITTED
ELEKTRA: ROOT OF EVIL 1-4 (1995) SUBMITTED
EXILES 1-50 (2001-2004) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVES 73
FANTASTIC FORCE 18 (1996) SUBMITTED
FANTASTIC FOUR WORLDS GREATEST COMIC MAGAZINE 1 & 2 (2001) SUBMITTED
FANTASTIC FOUR WORLDS GREATEST COMIC MAGAZINE 3 & 4 SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 61
FANTASTIC FOUR WORLDS GREATEST COMIC MAGAZINE 5 & 11 SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 63
FANTASTIC FOUR WORLDS GREATEST COMIC MAGAZINE 6-10, 12 SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 62
GUARDIANS 1-5 (2004) SUBMITTED
HAWKEYE V4 1-8 (2003-2004) SUBMITTED
HOWARD THE DUCK HOLIDAY SPECIAL (1997) SUBMITTED
HULK V3 60-65 (2003) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 43
HULK V3 71 (2004) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 53
IRON MAN V3 78 (2004) SUBMITTED
MARVEL BOY 2-4 (2000) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 5
MARVEL FANFARE 34-37 (1987-1988) SUBMITTED
MARVEL KNIGHTS DOUBLE SHOT 3 (2002) SUBMITTED
MARVEL KNIGHTS DOUBLE SHOT 4 (2002) SUBMITTED
MUTIES 1-6 (2002) SUBMITTED
MYSTIQUE 1-12 (2003-2004) ADDRESSED IN ARCHIVE 46
NAMOR V2 1-12 (2003-2004) SUBMITTED
NIGHTCRAWLER V2 1-4 (2002) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 51
NOVA V3 1-7 (1999) SUBMITTED
NOVA (French) 25-26 (1980) SUBMITTED
NYX 5-7 (2004) SUBMITTED
POWER PACK HOLIDAY SPECIAL 1 (1992) SUBMITTED
RAWHIDE KID V3 1-5 (2003) SUBMITTED
RUNAWAYS #1-10 (2003-2004) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 49
RUNAWAYS #11-18 (2004) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 52
SABRETOOTH (2004 mini) 1-4 SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 58
SENTRY #3-5 (2000-2001) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 7
SENTRY/FANTASTIC FOUR (2001) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 7
SENTRY/HULK (2001) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 7
SENTRY/SPIDER-MAN (2001) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 7
SENTRY/X-MEN (2001) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 7
SENTRY VS. THE VOID (2001) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 7
SGT. FURY & HIS HOWLING COMMANDOS 75-92 SUBMITTED
SGT. FURY & HIS HOWLING COMMANDOS 94-102 SUBMITTED
SGT. FURY & HIS HOWLING COMMANDOS 104 SUBMITTED
SGT. FURY & HIS HOWLING COMMANDOS 106-120 SUBMITTED
SGT. FURY & HIS HOWLING COMMANDOS ANNUAL 4-7 SUBMITTED
SPIDER-MAN/DAREDEVIL 1 (2002) SUBMITTED
SPIDER-MAN DR. OCTOPUS: NEGATIVE EXPOSURE 1-5 (2003-2004) SUBMITTED
SPIDER-MAN DR. OCTOPUS: OUT OF REACH 1-5 (2004) SUBMITTED
SPIDER-MAN KINGPIN: TO THE DEATH (1997) SUBMITTED
SPIDER-MAN & WOLVERINE 1-4 (2003) SUBMITTED
SPIDER-MAN: HOBGOBLIN LIVES #1-3 (1997) SUBMITTED
SPIDER-MAN'S TANGLED WEB #21 (2003) ADDRESSED IN ARCHIVE 30
SPIDER-MAN 2099 MEETS SPIDER-MAN (1995) SUBMITTED
STARLORD 1-3 (1996-1997) SUBMITTED
THANOS 1-12 (2003-2004) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 49
THOR V2 67-79 (2003-2004) SUBMITTED
THOR: THE LEGEND (1996) SUBMITTED
THOR: VIKINGS 1-5 (2003-2004) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 41
THUNDERBOLTS 75-81 (2003) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 51
TOMB OF DRACULA (Vol 3/Epic) #1-4 SUBMITTED
TRUTH: RED WHITE AND BLACK 1-7 (2003) SUBMITTED
TWO-GUN KID: SUNSET RIDERS 1-2 (1995) SUBMITTED
UNCANNY ORIGINS 1 (1996)
UNCANNY ORIGINS 2 (1996)
UNCANNY ORIGINS 3 (1996) SUBMITTED & ARCHIVE 47
UNCANNY ORIGINS 4 (1996) SUBMITTED
UNCANNY ORIGINS 5 (1997)
UNCANNY ORIGINS 7 (1997)
UNCANNY ORIGINS 8 (1997) SUBMITTED
UNCANNY ORIGINS 10 (1997) SUBMITTED
UNCANNY ORIGINS 11 (1997)
UNCANNY ORIGINS 12 (1997) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 47
UNCANNY ORIGINS 13 (1997)
UNCANNY ORIGINS 14 (1997)
UNION JACK 1-3 (1998-1999) SUBMITTED
WILD ANGELS/MARVEL TOP 6 (1996) SUBMITTED
WOLVERINE/CAPTAIN AMERICA 1-4 (2004) SUBMITTED
WOLVERINE: SNIKT 1-5 (2003) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 51
WOLVERINE: X-ISLE 1-5 (2003) SUBMITTED, ARCHIVE 51

As far as I can tell, this is everything thats missing up to mid-2004, excluding any missing pre-Silver Age books.(Golden Age, Atlas) Since Dhall has already tackled Marvel UK, can anyone guess what my vote for Next Focus Item is? 

Last edited by Col_Fury on Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:32 pm, edited 38 times in total. 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 24, 2007 8:12 am 
By Starman

I volunteer for SPIDER-MAN 2099 MEETS SPIDER-MAN (1995).

- Stefan

"Pub, ah yes. A meeting place where people attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf

			*	*	*

Aug 24, 2007 8:16 am 
By Starmn

Col_Fury wrote:
CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS V2 1-5 (1999) ADDRESSED IN ARCHIVE 47
Just addressed? But ... I submitted it... 

- Stefan

"Pub, ah yes. A meeting place where people attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf

			*	*	*

Aug 24, 2007 10:42 am 
By dimadick

"BLOODSEED #1-4 (1993)" 

Though planned to run four issues, only the first two seem to have been published. The storyline was cut in the middle and no writer has bothered to complete it.

			*	*	*

Aug 24, 2007 10:59 am 
By Somebody
Director

Micronauts was done by Dhall, and I'm sure at least some of this has been "addressed" (Ultron Imperative is part of the whole Kang War thing in Archives 23-26)

			*	*	*

Aug 24, 2007 4:45 pm 
By Dhall

I posted an analysis for these a while back: 

BLOODSEED #1-4 (1993) Note: There's only 2 issues of this title. 
CHILDREN OF THE VOYAGER #1-4 (1993) 
DANCES WITH DEMONS #1-4 (1993) 
MARVEL FRONTIER COMICS SPECIAL #1 (1994) 


>>>
Since Dhall has already tackled Marvel UK, can anyone guess what my vote for Next Focus Item is?
<<<

Ummm...Millie the Model ?? 

Dave H. 

			*	*	*

Aug 24, 2007 10:48 pm 
By JLH

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
WEBSPINNERS 3-18 (1999-2000)
<<<

I did all of these not too long ago.

			*	*	*

Aug 25, 2007 12:48 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Starman wrote:
>>>
I volunteer for SPIDER-MAN 2099 MEETS SPIDER-MAN (1995).
<<<

Yay!


Starman wrote:
>>>
Just addressed? But ... I submitted it... 
<<<

No, that's my fault. I switched terms halfway through and didn't fix them all. That's what I get for doing this at three in the morning.  


dimadick wrote:
>>>
"BLOODSEED #1-4 (1993)" 

Though planned to run four issues, only the first two seem to have been published. The storyline was cut in the middle and no writer has bothered to complete it.
<<<

Awesome. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
(Ultron Imperative is part of the whole Kang War thing in Archives 23-26)
<<<

Yeah... my mastery of the Archives pre-'Menu' isn't the best. I'm slugging through them, but slowly. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
I posted an analysis for these a while back: 

BLOODSEED #1-4 (1993) Note: There's only 2 issues of this title. 
CHILDREN OF THE VOYAGER #1-4 (1993) 
DANCES WITH DEMONS #1-4 (1993) 
MARVEL FRONTIER COMICS SPECIAL #1 (1994)
<<<

Totally Awesome. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Ummm...Millie the Model ?? 
<<<

Nah. It's page/panel ranges for splits in comics.  


JLH wrote:
>>>
Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
WEBSPINNERS 3-18 (1999-2000)
<<<

I did all of these not too long ago.
<<<

Thanks! 

Can anyone else spot stuff I messed up on?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 25, 2007 12:55 am 
By SeanCurtin

NEW ETERNALS: APOCALYPSE NOW is already in the MCP, but isn't listed in the Key.

			*	*	*

Aug 25, 2007 12:57 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks!

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 27, 2007 11:09 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

SeanCurtin wrote:
>>>
NEW ETERNALS: APOCALYPSE NOW is already in the MCP, but isn't listed in the Key.
<<<

Is that the entry in some of the Eternals chronology that's listed as: 

NEW ETERNALS 

?

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Aug 27, 2007 11:35 am 
By Somebody
Director

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>

SeanCurtin wrote:
>>>
NEW ETERNALS: APOCALYPSE NOW is already in the MCP, but isn't listed in the Key.
<<<

Is that the entry in some of the Eternals chronology that's listed as "NEW ETERNALS" ?
<<<

Ja.

			*	*	*

Aug 27, 2007 12:31 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

>>>
BLOODSEED #1-4 (1993) Note: There's only 2 issues of this title.

NEW ETERNALS: APOCALYPSE NOW is already in the MCP, but isn't listed in the Key.
<<<

I've removed these from the Checklist. 

Is there any other Marvel UK titles that are canon, and not in the MCP that need added to the Checklist?

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Aug 27, 2007 6:22 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
SeanCurtin wrote:
>>>
NEW ETERNALS: APOCALYPSE NOW is already in the MCP, but isn't listed in the Key.
<<<

Is that the entry in some of the Eternals chronology that's listed as "NEW ETERNALS" ?
<<<

Ja.
<<<

Some sources also have the title as "Eternals: The New Breed".

			*	*	*

Aug 27, 2007 11:30 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
Is there any other Marvel UK titles that are canon, and not in the MCP that need added to the Checklist?
<<<

Dhall analysed the Marvel UK titles a while back.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 28, 2007 8:13 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Dhall analysed the Marvel UK titles a while back.
<<<

From the link:

BA  Black Axe
BT  Battletide
BT2  Battletide II
C:GENE  Codename: Genetix
DA  Dark Angel
DCVGF  Die-Cut Vs. G-Force
DG  Dark Guard
DHGOLD  Deaths Head Gold
DHII  Deaths Head II
DHII2  Deaths Head II v.2
DHIIODC  Deaths Head II and the Origin of Die-Cut
DIECUT  Die-Cut
DM  Death Metal
DMVG  Death Metal Vs. Genetix
DW  Death Wreck
D3  Death 3
GD  Gene Dogs
DIGI  Digitek
GENE  Genetix
GUN- Gun Runner
HA  Hells Angel
IDH  Incomplete Deaths Head
KEY  Killpower: The Early Years
KOP2  Knights of Pendragon II
MM  Motormouth
MMKP  Motormouth & Killpower
MTW  Mys-Tech Wars
PLASMER  Plasmer
SR  Shadow Riders
WARH  Warheads
WARH:BD  Warheads: Black Dawn 


Wow, that's a lot of titles that need added to the Checklist...anybody want to break down how many issues each of the titles above had?

Also from the link:

Dhall wrote:
>>>
6) If anyone has them, please write up the Wild Angels series, released only in Italy. Thank You!
<<<

Has analysis for this been submitted yet? This isn't in the MCP yet, is it? As such, it needs added to the Checklist, (like that French "Wolverine" comic book).

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Aug 28, 2007 10:31 am 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
ANT-MAN'S BIG CHRISTMAS (one-shot) (2000)
<<<

HUGE discussion on placement for this in Archive 27 (with timeout for calendar discussion in the middle), including an analysis from Jeph (October 26, 2002 at 14:46:20 if you're searching for it)

			*	*	*

Aug 28, 2007 11:14 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wild Angels ran four issues... I'll see if I can figure out the rest tonight. 

Thanks for pointing out Ant-Man, Somebody!

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 28, 2007 6:52 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
Wild Angels ran four issues
<<<

Well no it didn't, at least not exactly.... 

Wild Angels was never actually published in the UK. It was scheduled to run for 4 issues, one of a number of Marvel UK projects in various stages of completion at the time Marvel UK got the axe. 

Wild Angels was published by Marvel Italia in April 1996 in a one volume edition which is called Marvel Top 6, though the cover says Wild Angels. 

This book features Dark Angel and Nikki Doyle, but of course, is completely in Italian. 

It would come last of the published Marvel UK books, but of course I don't speak Italian, so.....

			*	*	*

Aug 28, 2007 7:05 pm 
By jephyork
Director

The French Wolverine book ("Wolverine: Saudade") was recently analyzed. 

It's been printed in English, too -- over in the UK by Panini, in a TPB called "Marvel Europa", which also includes English-language editions of foreign Spider-Man and Daredevil stories. 

Were those analyzed too? I can't remember. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Aug 28, 2007 7:36 pm 
By Somebody
Director

We have an update! 

Spider-Man Holiday Special, Starmasters, STORM2, SMF:AF, Deadpool v1, Micronauts, XFOR/Y, Y/XFOR, X-Statix #19-20, CV2, ASTRIKE, Venom, Annex, Mekanix, NBE 12, Spider-Man: Quality of Life and Soldier X #7-12 have been added. That includes some of Col_Fury's list above.

			*	*	*

Aug 28, 2007 11:12 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Dhall wrote:
>>>
Wild Angels was published by Marvel Italia in April 1996 in a one volume edition which is called Marvel Top 6, though the cover says Wild Angels. 
<<<

I re-listed it as 'WILD ANGELS/MARVEL TOP 6'. 


jephyork wrote:
>>>
Were those analyzed too? I can't remember. 
<<<

Not that I can find. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
That includes some of Col_Fury's list above.
<<<

Not anymore!  

And: 

BLACK AXE 1-7 
BATTLETIDE 1-4 
BATTLETIDE II 1-4 
CODENAME: GENETIX 1-4 
DARK ANGEL 6-16 (cont from Hells Angel) 
DIE-CUT VS. G-FORCE 1-2 
DARK GUARD 1-4 
DEATHS HEAD GOLD 1 
DEATHS HEAD II 1-4 
DEATHS HEAD II v.2 1-16 
DEATHS HEAD II AND THE ORIGIN OF DIE-CUT 1-2 
DIE-CUT 1-4 
DEATH METAL 1-4 
DEATH METAL VS. GENETIX 1-2 
DEATH WRECK 1-4 
DEATH 3 1-4 
GENE DOGS 1-4 
DIGITEK 1-4 
GENETIX 1-6 
GUN RUNNER 1-6 
HELLS ANGEL 1-5 
INCOMPLETE DEATHS HEAD 1-12 
KILLPOWER: THE EARLY YEARS 1-4 
KNIGHTS OF PENDRAGON II 1-15 
MOTORMOUTH 1-5 
MOTORMOUTH & KILLPOWER 6-12 (cont from Motormouth) 
MYS-TECH WARS 1-4 
PLASMER 1-4 
SHADOW RIDERS 1-4 
WARHEADS 1-14 
WARHEADS: BLACK DAWN 1-2 
(also, not Marvel UK, but Hercules & the Heart of Chaos 1-3 are already in the MCP and should be removed from the checklist)

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 29, 2007 5:24 am 
By Dhall

Technically speaking, the Marvel UK, (and the Ultraverse for that matter) and possibly other issues that have been analyzed are part of the 1990's gap. I've been expecting them to be added to the MCP, but so far no luck. (Good to see the Micronauts make it in though! Thanks for the update.) 

Are there any other 1990's issues that have been analyzed, but have not made it in yet? Any that haven't been analyzed?

			*	*	*

Aug 29, 2007 5:37 am 
By Dhall

Dhall wrote:
>>>
Technically speaking, the Marvel UK, (and the Ultraverse for that matter) and possibly other issues that have been analyzed are part of the 1990's gap.
<<<

Yup, that's why I listed 'MARVEL UK, VARIOUS' with the early '90's Gap books above 'the Third Gap' above. I've steered clear of the Ultraverse, though. 


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Are there any other 1990's issues that have been analyzed, but have not made it in yet? Any that haven't been analyzed?
<<<

Depending on how the Gap is defined, 1994 cut-off or 1995 cut-off, everything has been analyzed or almost everything has been analyzed. Starman has volunteered for SPIDER-MAN 2099 MEETS SPIDER-MAN (1995), and TWO-GUN KID: SUNSET RIDERS 1-2 (1995) is still up for grabs. Everything else is 1996 or later.(not counting Sgt. Fury & Combat Kelly... and any Golden Age & Atalas stuff, of course)

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 29, 2007 5:45 am 
By Dhall

>>>
I've steered clear of the Ultraverse, though. 
<<<

Most people do. :) 
Those are 1996 books for the most part. 

The Marvel UK are 1993-94. 

Let's close those gaps!

			*	*	*

Aug 29, 2007 6:08 am 
By JLH

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
TWO-GUN KID: SUNSET RIDERS 1-2 (1995) is still up for grabs.
<<<

I'll do it.

			*	*	*

Aug 29, 2007 7:34 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Dude, you rock.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 29, 2007 9:32 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

>>>
Depending on how the Gap is defined, 
<<<

You can define it however you want, but I really think we're at the point where we leave the concept of a "Gap" behind. All we have now is books missing from the MCP, from a variety of different years. 

And thanks for the list, Col. Fury! The updating of the Checklist continues...


>>>
I've steered clear of the Ultraverse, though.
<<<

From what I can tell, all Ultraverse titles that feature Marvel characters have been added to the MCP. Is there any that have been overlooked?

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Aug 29, 2007 2:45 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
And thanks for the list, Col. Fury! 
<<<

I do what I can. 


Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
From what I can tell, all Ultraverse titles that feature Marvel characters have been added to the MCP. Is there any that have been overlooked?
<<<

Ah, but I'm almost positive that Dave's talking about chronologies for Prime, Rune, etc, not just Marvel characters appearing in Ultraverse books.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 29, 2007 6:16 pm 
By Somebody
Director

> NIGHTSIDE #1-4 (2001-2002) 

Wasn't this a proto-Icon book? [i.e., Creator-owned, own universe]

			*	*	*

Aug 29, 2007 11:34 pm 
By JLH

Col_Fury wrote:
APACHE SKIES 1-4 (2002)
BLAZE OF GLORY 1-4 (2000)
CONSPIRACY 1-2 (1998)
GET KRAVEN 1-6 (2002-2003)
HAWKEYE V4 1-8 (2003-2004)
HOWARD THE DUCK HOLIDAY SPECIAL (1997)
IRON MAN: THE LEGEND (1996)
MARVEL KNIGHTS DOUBLE SHOT #3, 4 (2002)
NOVA V3 1-7 (1999)
SPIDER-MAN DAREDEVIL: USUAL SUSPECTS 1-4 (2001)
SPIDER-MAN DR. OCTOPUS: NEGATIVE EXPOSURE 1-5 (2003-2004)
SPIDER-MAN DR. OCTOPUS: OUT OF REACH 1-5 (2004)
SPIDER-MAN KINGPIN: TO THE DEATH (1997)
SPIDER-MAN: HOBGOBLIN LIVES #1-3 (1997)
STARLORD 1-3 (1996-1997)

I'll do all of these. 

I'd do more, but I don't want to seem greedy.

			*	*	*

Aug 30, 2007 12:20 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

JLH wrote:
>>>
I'll do all of these. 
<<<

I've put myself up for some, as well. And dammit, you beat me to Nova. If you wanted to hand that one off, I wouldn't mind...


Somebody wrote:
>>>
> NIGHTSIDE #1-4 (2001-2002) 

Wasn't this a proto-Icon book? [i.e., Creator-owned, own universe]
<<<

Does anyone know?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 30, 2007 1:20 am 
By JLH

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
I've put myself up for some, as well. And dammit, you beat me to Nova. If you wanted to hand that one off, I wouldn't mind...
<<<

Whatever you want. It wouldn't be the first time I volunteered for a Nova series and someone else ended up doing it.

			*	*	*

Aug 30, 2007 3:22 am 
By Frederic Krier

jephyork wrote:
>>>
The French Wolverine book ("Wolverine: Saudade") was recently analyzed.

It's been printed in English, too -- over in the UK by Panini, in a TPB called "Marvel Europa", which also includes English-language editions of foreign Spider-Man and Daredevil stories.

Were those analyzed too? I can't remember.
<<<

I did an analysis of the german edition of the Italian Spider-Man story here: 
http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... ght=venice

			*	*	*

Aug 30, 2007 3:27 am
By Col_Fury
Director

JLH wrote:
>>>
It wouldn't be the first time I volunteered for a Nova series and someone else ended up doing it.  
<<<

Haw! And still, no one cares about Daughters of the Dragon. Poor Paul... 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 30, 2007 7:43 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

I've been using this thread to perform some updates on the Checklist, but I just want to point out that as has been stated previously, the Checklist is not a Call for Analysis. You guys can continue to do analysis for any books you would like, but this is seperate from Paul's requests for analysis for the Calender, and Russ' requests to help Close the Gap, (which was what started this thread). And again, I think we've pretty well covered what Russ originally had in mind for the Gap, (though I might be overlooking a few titles...) 

*shrug* I just wanted to put in that disclaimer. If you do analysis for a book, I'm sure it will get reviewed for addition to the MCP eventually.  

>>>
Ah, but I'm almost positive that Dave's talking about chronologies for Prime, Rune, etc, not just Marvel characters appearing in Ultraverse books.
<<<

Should the DC titles be added? 

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Aug 30, 2007 8:34 am 
By Somebody
Director

JLH wrote:
>>>
Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
I've put myself up for some, as well. And dammit, you beat me to Nova. If you wanted to hand that one off, I wouldn't mind...
<<<

Whatever you want. It wouldn't be the first time I volunteered for a Nova series and someone else ended up doing it. 
<<<

Hey, I said if and only if you were okay with it  

And don't worry, I won't be "nicking" the Quarrel Starlord series either  [which I'm really not sure about the canonicity of, doubly so since the Handbook's attempt to fit it in was overruled by AC:STARLORD 1-FB]

			*	*	*

Aug 30, 2007 1:56 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
I just want to point out that as has been stated previously, the Checklist is not a Call for Analysis. 
<<<

Absolutely, which is why I didn't put this list in the Checklist forum. 


Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
You guys can continue to do analysis for any books you would like, but this is separate from Paul's requests for analysis for the Calender, and Russ' requests to help Close the Gap
<<<

Exactly. We were just poking fun with the Daughters of the Dragon, it's been on Paul's Call since forever and no one bought it. But yes, this is separate from both of those. 


Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
If you do analysis for a book, I'm sure it will get reviewed for addition to the MCP eventually.
<<<

I don't think anyone expects these to get included next week, but I know a number of us would like to put the missing books behind us. The books we want to analyse are the missing books, and I can't think of a better way to do that than to put a list together, based on your Checklist.(which is awesome) We want to contribute to the Project in the most useful way we can, and with the Gap all but closed, I figured a couple of us could be proactive in attacking what's left. 

But yes, we know that there's not an immediate 'Call' for what I've listed, but with them analyzed and on the forum, Russ can add them whenever he wants. 


Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Ah, but I'm almost positive that Dave's talking about chronologies for Prime, Rune, etc, not just Marvel characters appearing in Ultraverse books.
<<<

Should the DC titles be added?  
<<<

I don't want to mis-quote Dave here, but I think the argument is that the Ultraverse is a separate corner of the larger Marvel Multiverse, and deserves to be listed like the Killraven mythos is. Am I wrong?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 30, 2007 3:56 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Okay, my apologies, I'm not wanting to make it appear that I or any other Board member are not approving what you guys are doing here, in fact, it's much appreciated. 

I just wanted to make clear that the only priority we had was to the Gap, but with the Gap being complete, (I think - are we overlooking anything?) then we have no priority now as to what order things get added to the MCP. 

But you said you understand that, so yeah, we're on the same page. Sorry for any confusion. 

Oh, and you can poke fun at "Daughters of the Dragon" and Paul all you want.  

>>>
, based on your Checklist.(which is awesome) 
<<<

Not "my" Checklist. I simply edit it with input from everyone else.  

>>>
I don't want to mis-quote Dave here, but I think the argument is that the Ultraverse is a separate corner of the larger Marvel Multiverse, and deserves to be listed like the Killraven mythos is. Am I wrong?
<<<

That's one interpretation, (which I might be inclined to agree with) but I figured I'd ask for other's opinions as to the Ultraverse's validity in being added.

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Aug 30, 2007 7:05 pm 
By Dhall

>>>
Should the DC titles be added?
<<<

If Marvel buys them out, and explicitly adds them to the Marvel Universe, well yes. 

Fury, don't worry, you're not mis-quoting me... 

There is an AOA-page, there should be an Ultraverse page. Same as any other strange corner of the Marvel Universe...

			*	*	*

Aug 30, 2007 8:51 pm 
By Dhall

BLAZE OF GLORY 1-4 (2000) 
APACHE SKIES 1-4 (2002) 

I haven't read these, but my understanding is that they aren't canon, as they contradict various aspects of Marvel Western books which are known to be canon, even though not yet in the MCP. 

Specifically all of the write-ups that I have read state that these are different (not the Marvel Universe) versions of the Western characters, and that Blaze of Glory shows many of these characters being killed off (which as the Western characters continue to make appearances here and there, would put this into the alternate future catagory, even if these were meant to be the same characters.) 

Now again, this is based of reading articles, and descriptions, not the actual books..... 

Dave H.

			*	*	*

Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:10 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Alternate future books set entirely in the past?  

And, from my understanding, gleaned in the same way as yours, the characters were elder gentlemen in the story where they were killed off...

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Aug 30, 2007 9:56 pm 
By Dhall

Head hurts, but yes...alternate future from the point of view of the characters.

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Aug 30, 2007 10:07 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

I have the two western mini-series in question, but no prior Marvel Western tales. What material in these two books contradicts prior Marvel Western material? 

And I'm not sure "Alternate Future" is the right term...if the concern is that many of the characters are shown dying in "Blaze of Glory" maybe this is just there last appearance in the MCP? 

Well, that is, until they're brought back to life...I'm just saying that with death being an easy hurdle to overcome in the Marvel universe, it'll take more than that to rule them non-canon, (for my tastes anyway).

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Aug 30, 2007 10:33 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I'm also under the impression that the two Western minis are The End of the Marvel Westerns. I haven't read much of the actual Marvel Westerns, but unless there are other stories out there that show these characters still alive explicitly after the events of Blaze of Glory & Apache Skies, I don't see any reason that these minis just can't be their last chronological appearances...

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

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Aug 30, 2007 11:50 pm 
By JLH

Dhall wrote:
>>>
I haven't read these, but my understanding is that they aren't canon, as they contradict various aspects of Marvel Western books which are known to be canon, even though not yet in the MCP.
<<<

You SHOULD read them. They're damn fine books.


Dhall wrote:
>>>
Specifically all of the write-ups that I have read state that these are different (not the Marvel Universe) versions of the Western characters, and that Blaze of Glory shows many of these characters being killed off (which as the Western characters continue to make appearances here and there, would put this into the alternate future catagory, even if these were meant to be the same characters.)
<<<

Having reread them myself just in the past two days, I can say whoever tries to claim they're non-canon is a lily-livered owlhoot. 

First of all, Blaze of Glory directly references Sunset Riders. I mean, it's entirely in continuity with it, and Sunset Riders has Two-Gun making loads of references to the Avengers (his ID card appears, for instance). Sunset Riders took place in 1885, "10 years" after Two-Gun returned from his time in the future. Blaze of Glory also takes place in 1885, reretconning back Sunset Riders to 1883 for some reason. 

As for the "changes", they're nothing less than half of this horse-pucky coming out of Marvel lately. Tony Stark with his musical chairs of different countries his origin takes place in? Captain America awakening for the first time in a new decade every retelling? ANYTHING BENDIS? Reno Jones merely reveals his life wasn't as easy as the dime novels claimed. He wasn't a "happy slave", his master didn't treat him any better than anyone. But when he and Kid Cassidy were riding together, things were good between them. None of that was retconned out, the true realities of his early life were a little more severe. 

Another is Kid Colt getting revenge for his father. The men he killed, he's realized in hindsight, may not have even been the ones who hurt his father. They may not have even been armed when his temper got the best of him. The events didn't change, the details were a little less rosy than we were told before. 

So, again, characters who knew each other still knew each other, and those that didn't, didn't. Two-Gun is currently in She Hulk, last I heard, but considering the lengthy gap of time before his death, why is this a problem? These characters have to die eventually, simply by virtue of the fact this isn't DC and there is no "Earth-Spur" or some hogwash where the West is still going on. Until Marvel has JMS stick his nose in and decide he wants to write his own view of how the Western heroes died, completely throwing out the window these minis, I'll fight, tooth and nail to keep 'em in. 

I should point out, Tom Breevort edited them. He's a reachable guy, if someone wants some semi-official word on Marvel's view of the books' canonocity, by all means. I'd like to get around to analyzing them fully before being told I'm wasting my time.

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Aug 31, 2007 6:03 am 
By Dhall

Sounds like the books are NOT as different, as articles on the internet make them out to be. In which case my only issue is the Marvel: The End minis kind of one, BUT in the case of Westerns, it doesn't seem that likely that any one is going to write stories about aged Western heroes that contradict these. 

So that's probably NOT a problem with these. Good to know. BY the way, I do have the books, I'm just not planning on reading them until I complete more of my Western collection, and can sit down and read a whole bunch of Western stories. 

Thanks for the clarification, JLH.

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Aug 31, 2007 7:30 am 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
Sounds like the books are NOT as different, as articles on the internet make them out to be.
<<<

Internet articles are always written by alarmists with Asberger's. 

"OMG he's wearing a YELLOW hat and his hair's parted on the RIGHT! NON-CANON!!!!1" 

-Jeph!

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Aug 31, 2007 7:47 am 
By Starman

jephyork wrote:
>>>
"OMG he's wearing a YELLOW hat [...]
<<<

Could be explained away as a colouring error.


jephyork wrote:
>>>
[...]his hair's parted on the RIGHT!
<<<

The pages could have been accidentally reversed. (They are sometimes intentionally reversed when reprinting Japanese comics so that it is possible to read from left to right.) 

Do I get a no-prize?   

- "Skippy"

- Stefan

"Pub, ah yes. A meeting place where people attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf

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Sep 01, 2007 2:01 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
> NIGHTSIDE #1-4 (2001-2002) 

Wasn't this a proto-Icon book? [i.e., Creator-owned, own universe]
<<<

After a bit of research, I discovered that Nightside is owned by Robert Weinberg, and was originally published by another company. He still retains the rights. So yeah, this looks like it's 'proto-Icon.' 

Does anyone know if these characters have been referred to by the Handbooks? If not, I'd say it's safe to say that Nightside is not Marvel 616.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

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Sep 01, 2007 9:43 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Along with everything else tossed up for analysis in this thread, I figured I'd give all of you the head's up: the Marvel Conan titles have been added to the Checklist. 

Also, a note for Russ: since this thread was started to finish off the Gap, now that that's pretty well accomplished, should the FAQ be updated/revised to reflect that the Gap is closed, (or has it merely morphed?!?). 

It's not a priority or anything, but I noticed that the FAQ could now stand for some updating.Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Sep 03, 2007 2:19 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'll do that, once the analysed books have made their way into the Project.

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

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Sep 07, 2007 1:06 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
the Marvel Conan titles have been added to the Checklist. 
<<<

That's... a lot of Conan titles.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

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Sep 07, 2007 2:42 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
That's... a lot of Conan titles.
<<<

Not to mention the Kull, Red Sonya, and Solomon Kane titles.  

I plan on submitting a brief analysis for the first few issues of Conan the Barbarian, (the Barry Windsor Smith period) here soon. Everything else is up for grabs though.

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Sep 07, 2007 4:23 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
Not to mention the Kull, Red Sonya, and Solomon Kane titles. 
<<<

SonJa. C'mon, that whole Sonya/Sonja thing sparked an ongoing lawsuit and you didn't notice? :p

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Sep 07, 2007 5:42 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Good point. I stand corrected. 

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Sep 08, 2007 12:31 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
I plan on submitting a brief analysis for the first few issues of Conan the Barbarian, (the Barry Windsor Smith period) here soon. 
<<<

Sweet.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

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Sep 08, 2007 7:49 am 
By Dhall

That's... a lot of Conan titles.

Don't worry Fury, we'll give you a month..... 

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Thread 31

Subject: Wolverine/Captain America 1-4

Sep 07, 2007 12:55 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine/Captain America #1 
Published: April, 2004 

Appearances: 
Captain America, Wolverine, Warbird(Carol Danvers), Edwin Jarvis, Forge, Beast-FB, Professor X-FB & BTS, Shrike, Kite, Killdeer, Condor, Rapture, Sharon Carter 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8 
Captain America & Warbird train in Avengers Mansion. Theyre summoned to the infirmary by Jarvis, where Forge is waiting for them. 
Pg9-pg11-FB: earlier today 
Forge & Beast tell Professor X about a mutated computer chip they found. Forge decides to take it to Avengers mansion. On the way hes attacked by the Contingency.( Shrike, Kite, Killdeer, & Condor) 
Pg12-pg22 
Forge finished his story and tells Cap that he called Professor X, and hes sent Wolverine with a tracking device to find the chip. Elsewhere, Wolverine fights Rapture & the Contingency in the sewers. Meanwhile, Cap calls Sharon Carter at S.H.I.E.L.D., then he & Warbird head off to help Wolverine. They find him face down in the sewer. 

References: 
Warbird is wearing her classic Ms. Marvel outfit, Wolverine is wearing his Morrison leathers, Beast is cat-like, and Xavier is walking. This would suggest that the mini occurs before Avengers 65 for Warbird, before X-Men 142 for Xavier, & before Uncanny 423 for Wolverine. For reference, this entire mini was published the same month as Avengers(vol3) 78 & 79, X-Men 153, Uncanny 439 & 440, Captain America(vol4) 23, & Wolverine(vol3) 11. Inventory story, maybe? 

Wolverine/Captain America #2 
Published: April, 2004 

Appearances: 
Captain America, Wolverine, Warbird(Carol Danvers), Shrike, Kite, Killdeer, Condor, Rapture, Sharon Carter 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg21 
Somethings wrong with Wolverines healing factor, but he helps Cap & Warbird fight the Contingency anyway. Meanwhile, Sharon Carter orders files on the Contingency to be lost. In the sewers, Wolverine & Rapture fight. 

Wolverine/Captain America #3 
Published: April, 2004 

Appearances: 
Captain America, Wolverine, Warbird(Carol Danvers), Shrike, Kite, Killdeer, Condor, Rapture, Sharon Carter 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg21 
Warbird takes Wolverine to S.H.I.E.L.D., in the hopes that Sharon Carter has a way to restore his healing factor. Meanwhile, Cap fights the Contingency, but they escape. He heads to the Helicarrier, where S.H.I.E.L.D. has solved Wolverines problem. 

Wolverine/Captain America #4 
Published: April, 2004 

Appearances: 
Captain America, Wolverine, Warbird(Carol Danvers), Shrike, Kite, Killdeer, Condor, Rapture, Sharon Carter, Professor X, Beast, Cyclops, Forge 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg16 
Warbird figures out where the Contingency are, so she, Cap, & Wolverine head off. After a fight, Wolverine guts Rapture and they get the chip back. 
Pg17-pg22: next day 
Wolverine chats with Xavier, Cyclops, Beast, & Forge at the X-Mansion. Elsewhere, Rapture chats with the Contingency, who are incarcerated. Elsewhere, Cap has a chat with Sharon. 

Here are some placement suggestions, based on Paul B.s Calendar: 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN GRANT ROGERS 
 
CA4 25 
IM3 64 
A3 63 
*W/CA 1
*W/CA 2
*W/CA 3
*W/CA 4 
CA4 26-FB 
CA4 26 
ALIAS 24 
ALIAS 28 
A3 65 
 

WOLVERINE/"LOGAN"/JAMES HOWLETT 
 
XX 21 
XX 22 
*W/CA 1
*W/CA 2
*W/CA 3
*W/CA 4 
W/DOOP 1 
W/DOOP 2 
 

WARBIRD/CAROL SUSAN JANE DANVERS 
From Binary 
 
A3 61 
XX 11 
*W/CA 1
*W/CA 2
*W/CA 3
*W/CA 4 
ALIAS 18 
ALIAS 24 
ALIAS 28 
A3 65 
 

CARTER, SHARON 
 
CA3 50/6 
ELEK2 2-BTS 
*W/CA 1
*W/CA 2
*W/CA 3
*W/CA 4 

JARVIS, EDWIN 
... 
A3 61 
M/DS 2/2 
*W/CA 1 
A3 69-BTS 
... 

PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER 
 
XX 22 
XX 23 
*W/CA 1-FB
*W/CA 1-BTS
*W/CA 4 
W/DOOP 1 
W/DOOP 2 
 

BEAST/HENRY "HANK" P. MCCOY 
 
UX 421 
*W/CA 1-FB
*W/CA 4 
UX 425 
 

CYCLOPS II/SCOTT SUMMERS 
 
UX 421 
CHAMBER 4 
*W/CA 4 
UX 423 
 

FORGE 
 
XU 29 
*W/CA 1-FB
*W/CA 1
*W/CA 4 
UX 425 
UX 426-BTS 

RAPTURE 
W/CA 1 
W/CA 2 
W/CA 3 
W/CA 4 

SHRIKE 
W/CA 1 
W/CA 2 
W/CA 3 
W/CA 4 

KITE 
W/CA 1 
W/CA 2 
W/CA 3 
W/CA 4 

KILLDEER 
W/CA 1 
W/CA 2 
W/CA 3 
W/CA 4 

CONDOR 
W/CA 1 
W/CA 2 
W/CA 3 
W/CA 4

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

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Sep 08, 2007 12:47 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
Inventory story, maybe?
<<<

I think so, yes. Or took so long to go from commission to completion that it became out of date even before being published. 

-Jeph!

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Thread 32

Subject: The 50's Revival: Sub-Mariner (and Namora)

Sep 09, 2007 11:33 am 
By Dhall

For those of you awaiting the Sub-Mariner entry for the 50's Revival, here it is. Also I've put Namora 1-3 in this thread, even though those are from 1948. I do not have a copy of Sub-Mariner Comics 33, so this thread will cover 34-42. 

Namora 1 
August 1948 
The Lost City of Yucatan! 
Characters Appearing: 
Namora 
June Webber 
Tom Brown 
Big Jim Derry 

Synopsis: Namora saves an expedition from a boa constrictor. She finds the lost city of Apaco, which is inhabited by Americans, seeking riches. They tie her up, and throw her in the river. She escapes, then goes to check on the expedition. They have been captured by Mayans. Namora sneaks up into the idol, and uses the speaking tube, to pretend that she is the god speaking. She explains to the Mayans who their real enemies are. She saves the expedition, then swims away. 


Namora 1/2 
August 1948 
The Kingdom beneath the sea. 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 
Namora 
Karlak 

Synopsis: a funnel drags down Namor and Namora, where they meet the inhabitants of Mu, a lost city under the ocean. They escape, but the high priest Karlak orders his men to attack the surface. The people from Mu attack Pearl Harbor, with one boat and a few arrows. Namor and Namora go to stop them. They follow the boat back to Mu, then tangle with Karlak. His gun goes off and he shoots himself in the head by accident. Peace is declared. 

Namora 1/3 
August 1948 
Characters Appearing: 
Namora 
Un Sun 
Joyce Wilson 
Paul West 
Dr. Shu Ling 

Synopsis: Off the coast of China, Namora saves a boat caught in a typhoon. Then she gets meets a woman, who wants help finding her fiance, and some stolen diamonds. While she is examining some of the real diamonds, someone turns off the lights, hits her on the head, and steals them. It turns out that the villain is the cousin of the woman who asked for Namoras help, and not the fiance as her father had suspected. Namora tracks him to a casino, but is captured. Shes taken to the boat, where she meets the captured fiance, then escapes, and tackles some of the gang, then she follows the rest of them to the next robbery. Then she captures them, and frees the finacee. 


Namora 2 
October 1948 
Terror in Turkey 
Characters Appearing: 
Namora 
Yusef, Amin, Prime Minister of Turkey 
Yusef, Magda 
Amouzecar 

Synopsis: IN Ankara, Turkey, seven cabinet members come to violent ends. Magda, the daughter of the prime minister enlists Namora for help. Amin Yusef, the PM, will not listen to her, and tells the two fo them to go to the womens quarters. When they do, Namora listens to the voice of a rabble rouser, Amouzecar, coming from over the wall. She follows him, and is captured, and thrown in the river. She reunites with Magda, to find out that an attempt has been made on Magdas fathers life. The PM still refuses to take the rebels seriously. Namora overhears a couple of plotters. At the Cabinet Ball, Namora follows Amouzecar to find the real traitor, Magdas father, the PM. She climbs down some vines to escape, and heads out to the boat. Amin is a true fanatic, and blows himself up rather than be captured. Namora saves Amouzecar. 

Namora 2/2 
October 1948 
Characters Appearing: 
Blonde Phantom 
Mark Mason 
H.C. Meadowes 

Synopsis: As Louise Grant, the Blonde Phantom accompanies her boss, Private detective Mark Mason to collect on a debt owed by a vaudeville actor. At the theatre, she slips away, changes into costume and investigates. There is a gang of criminals, breaking into the bank vault next door, using the theatre for cover. She uses the reward money to bankroll the actors production. 

Namora 2/3 
October 1948 
Doomed in the Desert 
Characters Appearing: 
Namora 
Tut-Ak-Mun 

Synopsis: In Egypt, a man opens up a secret passage in a pyramid, and finds a ring. This brings mummies to life, and they start attacking foreigners. Namora steps in to help out. The man, calling himself Tut-k-Mun, knocks out Namora, and takes her away to be his bride. She plays along in order to get information. When tut trusts her enough to with his secrets, and lets her wear the ring, she attacks him, and runs off to warn Cairo. The dead army dies when it follows her into the Nile. 

Namora 2/4 
October 1948 
Dressed to Kill 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 
Namora 
Betty Dean 

Synopsis: Betty and Namora attempt to get Namor to wear a suit for a formal dinner to be held in his honor. His conscience later makes him change his mind. He dresses up and accompanies the two woman to the dinner. Namor is surprised that all of the attendees thought he was going to wear his swimsuit, so they all wore theirs. 

Namora 3 
December 1948 
The Mystery of the Sleeping Ship 
Characters Appearing: 
Namora 

Synopsis: Namora sees a ship in trouble about to crash on the rocks. She goes aboard, and finds all the passangers are asleep, standing up. She succumbs to it herself. When she wakes up, the criminals, and the valuables are gone. She finds out that another ship is due soon. She hides in the hold, and attacks the robbers, but again falls prey to the sleeping gas. They decide that she knows too much, and take her with them. The coast guard starts depth bombing the pirates sub. Namora sneaks out through a torpedo tube. When she gets to the surface, the gas has already knocked out the coast guard. She swims away, but while the pirates are on board the coast guard vessel, she goes on their sub, and puts the gas out of action. Namora and the revived coast guard put the gang out of action. 

Namora 3/2 
December 1948 
The Last of the Vikings 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 
Namora 
Dr. Svorland 
Hunsen 

Synopsis: When a twelfth century Viking ship is spotted, Namor and Namora come out to find it. They quickly get captured by Viking raiders. They escape, but the Vikings ship founders on the rocks. The Vikings all die, but not before their leader tells Namor his backstory. 

Namora 3/3 
December 1948 
Some Fish Story 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 
Synopsis: Namor has fun with a fishing club. He pretends to have been caught on a line, by taking off the hook, and putting the line in his mouth. Then he finds a large tuna, for the men to catch. 

Namora 3/4 
December 1948 
Characters Appearing: 
Hanson, Ezra 
Hanson, Mary 
Namora 
Jim Torrence 

Synopsis: Namora visits her friend Mary, at Gull Rock lighthouse. She is pursued by an eager fellow, Jim Torrence, but she dives deep underwater to avoid him. Ezra, Marys father tells Jim about how badly he wants to be rich. Jim reports this talk to the mayor. The next day a series of small thefts occur. The mayor suspects Ezra. Ezra rows out to sea, while Namora keeps Mary company. A hooded figure comes on board, and ties him up. The Hood robs the cannery. Mary and Namora start to worry, when Ezra doesnt come home. The Hood planted some money in Ezras boat to frame him, but Namora finds Ezra. She hides when the Hood comes, so that he thinks Exra is still tied up. Ezra decks the Hood, who turns out to be Jim Torrence. Ezra gets the 500 dollar reward, but when he takes Mary to the big city, he cant wait to get back home. 

50S Revival Namor: 

YOUNG MEN 24/3 
Dec. 1953 
Characters Appearing: 
Betty Dean 
Cathy 
Admiral Saybrook 
Namor 

Synopsis: Near a particular island, all naval traffic is sinking, and the ships have been stripped down. In New York City, Betty Dean reads the paper to her roommate Cathy, and reminisces about Namor, whom she had met in her time as a girl-cop on the New York police force. She puts in a call to Admiral Saybrook, to try to reach Namor. Four days later, Namor walks through her door. Namor and Betty go to investigate the sinkings. Underwater, Namor finds that it is robots who are doing the pillaging. The authorities wont believe them, so Namor has to investigate on his own. He allows himself to be captured and taken to the chief robot, who claims that the robots are from Venus. Namor swims out of the tunnel, and knocks over the latest sunken ship, spilling its hold of coal right into the robots tunnel. The robots surrender, and Namor allows them to leave the Earth. Taking the now defunct chief robot with him as evidence, Namor returns to the states, where his story is not believed. 

Flashback: Namors origin, meeting Betty Dean, fighting Nazis. 
After the war, Namor gets a medal, and turns his attention to general law enforcement, and civilian defense. After a while, he gets tired of this and goes home. 



YOUNG MEN 25/3 
Feb. 1953 
Characters Appearing: 
Betty Dean 
Namor 
Markham, Lt. Commander Ben 

Synopsis: Namor investigates a series of mysterious suicides, where people have been jumping into the ocean, and are never found. It seems as though there are a series of very unusual shark attacks. It turns out that there are a group of half-man, half-sharks, and they are really aliens who have learned how to project their minds across space, and inhabit the bodies of sharks, and turn themselves into human form. Namor has the sharks rounded up, and they die. 


YOUNG MEN 26/2 
As detailed in my 50s Cap thread, The Torch, Toro, and Sub-Mariner make brief appearances in this story. 

YOUNG MEN 26/3 
March 1954 
Characters Appearing: 
Betty Dean 
Namor 
Oleg 
Commander Nelson 

Synopsis: Namor and Betty Dean are returning via commercial airliner from Europe, when the plane gets caught up in a storm and ditches into the ocean. No one is harmed, and they are picked up by spacemen, and taken to a mysterious island. They meet the great leader, Oleg. Namor escapes from his cell, and goes to the plane, finds the emergency radio, and gives it to Betty. Then he goes for help. Namor swims to New York City, where he asks Commander Nelson for help. Oleg wants to kill the passengers immediately, but Betty persuades him that they grabbed the wrong plane, and that a plane full of diplomats will be flying overhead in a few hours. She has been in radio communication with Namor, regarding his plan. They bring down the plane, but its occupants are navy divers, and Namor. 
The spacemen are no match for them, so Namor quickly locates the leader. When he pulls off his helmet, it turns out that they are not spacemen after all, but communists! 


YOUNG MEN 27/3 
April 1954 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 
Namora 
Mr. Wille Roese 
Estelle 
Mr. Big/Comerade Ivansky 

Synopsis: Namor reads in the paper, about a spectacular aqua show being put on, and goes to apply for a part. Mr. Roese hires him on the spot. Several hours later, 12 miles offshore, Namor is watching girls, and wearing a silly costume. He runs into Namora, who is also working the show. (Namor hasnt seen her in years.) Shes really there to investigate Mr. Roese. When they go underwater that night, to take a look around, they find a 17th century French vessel, complete with ghosts. The upstairs pirates are trying to raise the ship, but the ghosts keep interfering. Back on the salvage ship, Namor and Namora overhear a conversation between Mr. Roese, Estelle, and their boss, Mr. Big. The whole aqua show is just a front to find the sunken treasure. After briefing the ghosts, Namor and Namora get into costume, but instead of diving into the tank for a performance, they dive over the side of the barge, into the ocean, to investigate the salvage ship. The two, and the ghosts scare off the boarders, and capture Mr. Big. Its all a communist plot to raise money. Two days later, when Namor and Namora go to check out the sunken ship, the ghost crew and the treasure are gone. 

HUMAN TORCH COMICS 36/3 
April 1954 
Characters Appearing: 
Peter Matson 
Anna 
The Devil Octopus 
Namor 
Sam Hooker 

Synopsis: When some of Namors subjects bring word that the devil octopus, is overturning boats, and killing people, near Newfoundland, Namor springs into action. After that fight, he discovers oil underwater near the village, and fights an oil man, who is trying to take over the village. 

SUB-MARINER COMICS 33 
April 1954 

Unfortunately, I do not have this issue, or know of any good reprint sources for it. Can anyone help with a synopsis? 

SUB-MARINER COMICS 33/2 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 33/4 

MENS ADVENTURES 27/3 
May 1954 
Characters Appearing: 
Zuko 
Namor 
Namora 
Betty Dean 
Natu 

Synopsis: In council behind the Iron Curtain, a spy named Zuko is given the mission to eliminate the Sub-Mariner. Zuko has a ship that is perfectly camoflauged, and takes on the appearance of anything near it. He uses it to shell ports, then disappear. Underwater, Namora convinces Namor to investigate. She hopes it will take Namors mind off Betty Dean. When Namor goes to investigate, the ship vanishes. Namor only hears Zukos taunting. Zuko sends out a decoy submarine to lure Namor in. Namor smashes it into the reef. Zuko decides to use Namors weakness, Betty Dean against him. Zuko lures Betty with a promise of a scoop. Then kidnaps her, and ties her to the bow. Namor has artificial reefs built around Zukos ship, trapping him. Then he has a large whale released within the reefs. Zukos men haul it in for food, but Namor and his subjects are hiding in its mouth, and they fight the crew. Namor rescues Betty, and returns her to land. 

YOUNG MEN 28/3 
June 1954 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 
Dorma 
Emperor Thakkor 

Synopsis: Russian explorers have come to claim the South Pole. Namor returns home, and everyone is furious at him, because the emperor is mad that hes been helping surface people, instead of fighting them. The Emperor has Namor banished. Namor comes up with a plan to fight the Russians. He will have Dorma distract them, while he wrecks their equipment. After he does this, the crew use more TNT to blast their way out of the ice. Namor goes back up to sink the ship. The crew sees a woman who distracts them, and Namor does what he needs to do. The Emperor forgives him. Then he sees Dorma, who tells him that she couldnt help out, as she hurt her leg and was in the hospital. Namor is left wondering who the mysterious ghostly woman was who distracted the crew. 

HUMAN TORCH COMICS 37/3 
June 1954 
Characters Appearing: 
Rod Hunter 
Chick Hunter 
Dolores 
Namor 
Namora 


Synopsis: A diver tries to break the worlds free dive record. After he doesnt come back up, his girlfriend, Dolores, gets Sub-Mariner and Namora to look for him. His brother ignores the warnings, and goes down. Namor and Namora are surprised when they come across the two men, able to breathe and talk underwater. They tie up the two Sub-Mariners with aqua lung straps and swim off. After freeing themselves, Namor and Namora go to find the men. They overpower the men, and bring them up, but when they get them on the raft, the men are dead. Namor wonders what happened. 

SUB-MARINER COMICS 34 
June 1954 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 

Synopsis: 
Namor searches for a sailboat that went down at sea. He finds a trap, someone has been using a wind tunnel in reverse to suck ships down. He takes prisoner the red-headed mistress of this realm, and frees the capture crew. It turns out that the lady is some kind of undead creature. 

SUB-MARINER COMICS 34/2 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 
Namora 
Betty Dean 

Synopsis: In Florida, Betty Dean gets jealous of Namora. She decides to follow Namora and Namor underwater to see what they are up too. She has a rowboat, and diving equipment for this purpose. When she dives, she gets attacked by a giant octopus. (As one does in these situations) So she grabs a rock, and bangs out morse code on the ocean floor (Again, As one does in these situations) They rescue Betty, and bring her back to her rowboat. After Betty admits that she was jealous, Namora dives down, and brings up a surprise for Betty, a pearl necklace. They were going to give it to Betty for her birthday. Namor manages to avoid female entanglements, by telling Betty that he wont get tied to anyone girl. 

SUB-MARINER COMICS 34/4 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 

Synopsis: Namor is summoned to Washington D.C. The Reds have stolen plans for a sub-chaser, and the Feds want Namor to get it back. He sneaks onto an island, grabs the plans, and rides out on a miniature version of the boat. Then he pretends to sell them back to the Reds. Hes contacted the real owners of the island, and they come and capture the Reds. 


MENS ADVENTURES 28/3 
July 1954 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 
Namora 

Synopsis: A ship is attacked by killer whales. And so is a light house. Namor and Namora spring into action. They fight whales, then dive into the body of the lead whale, which turns out to be a submarine, manned by communists! Namor turns them over to the Americans, but when the red captain tries to blame Namor for the whole mess, the Americans are all to ready to believe him. 

HUMAN TORCH COMICS 38/3 
August 1954 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 

Synopsis: Namor finds an undersea canyon, which is inhabited by octopus-men. The octopus men have tunneled under Europe and planted large explosive devices to destroy cities. Namor tries to warn the surface people, but they do not listen to him. After the explosions start, theyre a little more willing to listen, and give Namor a ship to drop depth charges on the octopus men. Namor dives down, and brings up a couple of them as proof. 

SUB-MARINER COMICS 35 
August 1954 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 
Namora 
Byrrah 
Thakkor 
Betty Dean 

Synopsis: Prince Byrrah is stirring up trouble. (This is his first actual appearance by the way.) He leaves a note threatening to invade a small country, and signs it the Sub-mariner, so everyone will think Namor is behind it. Then he convinces the Emperor that the surface people are about to invade, and to let Byrrah take an expedition to defeat them. Namor follows along to find out what is going on. As part of the expedition, Namora is captured. Betty Dean, acting on a UN special mission, comes to the South American country to sort things out. Jealous of Betty, Namora tells her that Namor started the war. Namor tries to stop the fighting, is grazed by a bullet, and captured. Namor convinces Betty to give him a chance, and she gets his paroled. Namor joins Byrrah, and gives him a new attack plan, which leads his forces straight into an ambush. The South American commander is honorable, and orders a cease fire, allowing Byrrahs forces to escape. Namor and Namora are released, and attempt to go home, only to find out that Byrrah has turned the Emperor against Namor, and that he is banished from the realm. 

SUB-MARINER COMICS 35/4 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 
Betty Dean 
Professor Zunbar 
Elmer 

Synopsis: Namor is kidnapped by Professor Zunbar who wants to dissect him. Then he tangles with one of the doctors creations, Elmer. 


SUB-MARINER COMICS 36 
Nov. 1954 
Characters Appearing: 
Betty Dean 
Namor 
Namora 
Fen 

Synopsis: When all of the water on Earth floats up into space, the United Nations blames the Sub-Mariner. Namor uses a jet of water to propel himself into space (just as the rest of the water floated off.) He ends up on a strange moon, inhabited by talking crustaceans. Even Namora, and Fen become suspicious that Namor might be involved in the theft. Namor opens up the valves, and all of the water jets back to Earth. 

SUB-MARINER COMICS 36/4 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 
Byrrah 
Namora 
Betty Dean 

Synopsis: Byrrah cant understand why Namor wont make war on the surface-people. Byrrah decides to show him how its done. He goes to the Arctic, and breaks off a glacier, which crashes into North America., starting an ice age. Betty wonders if Namor is responsible, then calls him for help. Hes on the fence about helping, until he realizes that Byrrah is behind it. Namor blasts off a competing glacier. Namors air subs propel it away from South America. The two glaciers collide, and explode, and everything is ok again. Byrrah sends Namor a message on the wireless, telling himt hat he still has some tricks up his sleeve. 

SUB-MARINER COMICS 37 
Dec. 1954 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 
Namora 
Betty Dean - BTS 

Synopsis: The Sub-Mariner and Namora battle a series of strange explosions over the U.S. Stirred up by the person setting the fires, the police arrest Namor. As the fires continue, Namora busts him loose. Namor climbs into a balloon, following the Russian, and beats someone up, crashes the balloon, and has the Russian arrested. Then he goes to gather evidence. He brings back the alien bodies, which the Russian says are called the Unseen, and says they have made a deal with the Communists, but no one is allowed to look at their bodies. The Russian agent then dies. 

SUB-MARINER COMICS 37/4 
Characters Appearing: 
Betty Dean 
Namor 
Byrrah 

Synopsis: A double of Namor is spotted blowing up ships in New York City Harbor. Of course, Betty thinks Namor is doing it. Namor asks Betty to trust him, and hell track down the imposter. She returns to her apartment, and is kidnapped by the fake Namor. Namor tracks and fights his double, who turns out to be a robot. , controlled by Byrrah. BY the time Namor gets to Byrrahs lab, all of the equipment is gone, leaving no proof of Byrrahs involvement. 

SUB-MARINER COMICS 38 
Feb. 1955 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor (also in fb with Betty) 
Betty Dean (only in fb) 
Namora 
Thakkor 
Byrrah 

Synopsis: Namor is summoned by the Emperor, who unveils a machine that will restore Namors failing powers. Byrrah objects to this, and steals the operating instructions. Namor manages to recover them, and is hooked up to the machine. The Emperor has him smash the machi9ne, as a test, and perform various other tests of his restored abilities. Then Namor is ordered to resume his war on the surface people. He has an adventure rescuing a submarine, which was attacked by Byrrah. 

SUB-MARINER COMICS 38/4 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 
Betty Dean 

Synopsis: In New York, Namor explains about the Emperors new orders to Betty. Shes none too happy about them. Namor gets into a fight with the Fatalists, a group who have a new death-ray. It turns out they are aliens. Namor shoots them with their own ray, sending them back to space. He takes the guns, but they dont work without their alien inventors. 

SUB-MARINER COMICS 39 
April 1955 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 

Synopsis: In New York City, Namor finds a group of Commie Frogmen, planning to blow up the docks, and put the blame on him, by leaving a copy of his belt at the scene. Namor isnt quick enough to prevent the explosion. He busts up the gang, but the leader flies off in a helicopter. Namor follows in the pilots blind spot. It lands on a freighter. Namor makes short work of the commies. 

SUB-MARINER COMICS 39/4 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 
El Diablo 

Synopsis: El Diablo, an amusement park hypnotist, uses his powers to snare Namor. He uses Namor to rob a bank, and to commit other robberies. El Diablo wants revenge on Namor, as Namor had previously captured his brother, who was executed for murder. So, he uses Namor to attack a policeman, but this makes Namor snap out of his control. Namor returns to face El Diablo. He captures him, and turns him over to the police. 

SUB-MARINER COMICS 40 
June 1955 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 
Ivan Ivanoff 

Synopsis: Namor has taken up residence in a cabana on the Pacific Coast. A representative of the USSR comes to visit him. He tells him a story that the USSR and US have agreed to build an underwater tunnel across the Bering strait, and could the Sub-Mariner come along and help out? Namor doesnt buy it, but goes along to meet the engineer. Once he sees some tanks, he knows that the soviets are working to invade the U.S. so he alters the plans. They drug Namor, and put him on the work gang. He meets the American engineer who really designed the tunnel, after being forced to, by the reds. They escape, and sabotage the tunnel. 


SUB-MARINER COMICS 40/4 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 
Namora 
Thrakkor 
Byrrah 

Synopsis: A fleet of Surface ships head toward Antartica. Namor wants to attack, but Thrakkor is more cautious. Namor uses some of his vessels, to push ice bergs to surround the surface ships. The men on the ships start blasting their way out, causing havoc in the undersea kingdom. Thrakkor sends Namor out to counter attack, and Namora out to do some sabotage. They take her prisoner, and Namor comes on board to talk. He finds out that its not a military expedition, that the ships are looking for uranium for America. Namor agrees to free the ships, but Byrrah has other ideas. Namor stops him from planting explosives, but then the surface people tell Namor that all of Atlantis is in danger, due to Namors moving the icebergs around. Namor, Namora, and Byrrah have to work together to evacuate the city. 


SUB-MARINER COMICS 41 
Characters Appearing: 
Byrrah 
Thakkor 
Namor 
Namora 
Gonzales, Jose 

Synopsis: A surface ship comes, and wants to speak to Thakkor and Byrrah. Byrrah has arranged a deal where he is supplying ice to the reds, who are using it to smuggle weapons to South America, by having them frozen inside the ice blocks. Nam or gets wind of suspicious activities, and goes to investigate. Namor has himself frozen in a block of ice, so he can get close to the scheme. When he breaks out of the block, he confronts Jose Gonzales, the communist leader of South America. Namor sinks the reds ship, then confronts Byrrah. 

SUB-MARINER COMICS 41/4 
August 1955 
Characters Appearing: 
Betty Dean 
Namor 
Secretary of the Navy 

Synopsis: A painting of the Nautilus has been stolen. A note has been left saying that the thief is a magician, who intends to bring the submarine to life. Then ships are destroyed. Betty calls Namor to investigate. Namor tracks the ghost submarine back to its base. The sub disintegrates when Namor tries to enter. The man who stole the painting has a heart attack. Namor recovers the painting, but the submarine in the painting has gone missing. 


SUB-MARINER COMICS 42 
Characters Appearing: 
Namor 
Namora 

Synopsis: Namor rescues two ships that have crashed in the fog. He goes to visit Namora, then he stops a communist invasion of Haiti, the Dominican Republic, and Cuba! 


SUB-MARINER COMICS 42/4 
Characters Appearing: 
Black Louie 
Namor 

Synopsis: Two men take over a light house, in order to make a prison ship crash. The convicts, led by Black Louie escape. Louis wont let the rest of the convicts get off, and the ship floats out to sea, where Namor finds it. Namor goes to the light house, and captures the crooks. 


Sub-Mariner/Namor 
 
SAGASM 5 (20:3 - 22:?) 
**YOUNG MEN 24/3-FB (Namor receives a medal for his wartime service, from President Truman) 
ALL WINNERS 19 
ALL WINNERS 19/6 
ALL WINNERS 19/7 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 21 
WI? 4 (18:5 - 34) 
ALL WINNERS 21 
ALL WINNERS 21/4 
ALL WINNERS 21/7 
S-H2 22-FB 
** CV 1-FB (This is the correct spot for this, it occurs while Namor is still with the All-Winners Squad) 
** CV 2-FB (This is the correct spot) 
SAGASM 6 <-Remove, does not go here. 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82 <-s/b MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82/2 (3:3) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (3:1-3:3) 
** MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82/2 (3:4) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (3:4-4:3) 
** MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82/2 (3:5) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (4:4-6) 
** MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82/2 (3:6-4:1) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (5:2-5:5) 
** MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82/2 (4:2-4:4) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (6:1-6:2) 
** MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82/2 (4:5-11) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (6:3-6:4) 
N 20 (14)-FB 
NAMORA COMICS 1 <-S/B NAMORA 1/2 
NAMORA COMICS 2 <-S/B NAMORA 2/4 
NAMORA COMICS 3 <-S/B NAMORA 3/2 
**NAMORA 3/3 
**CV2 1 <-Correct spot (1953) 
YOUNG MEN 24 <-S/B YOUNG MEN 24/3 
**YOUNG MEN 25/3 
**YOUNG MEN 26/2 
**YOUNG MEN 26/3 
**YOUNG MEN 27/3 
**HUMAN TORCH 36/3 
**MENS ADVENTURES 27/3 
**YOUNG MEN 28/3 
**HUMAN TORCH 27/3 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 34 
** SUB-MARINER COMICS 34/2 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 34/4 
**MENS ADVENTURES 28/3 
**HUMAN TORCH 38/3 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 35 
** SUB-MARINER COMICS 35/4 
** SUB-MARINER COMICS 36 
** SUB-MARINER COMICS 36/4 
** SUB-MARINER COMICS 37 
** SUB-MARINER COMICS 37/4 
** SUB-MARINER COMICS 38-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 38 (1) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (8:5-9:3) 
** SUB-MARINER COMICS 38 (2-4) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (10:1)-OP 
** SUB-MARINER COMICS 38 (5-6:3) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (10:5-10:6) 
** SUB-MARINER COMICS 38 (6:4-8) 
** SUB-MARINER COMICS 38/4 
** SUB-MARINER COMICS 39 
** SUB-MARINER COMICS 39/4 
** SUB-MARINER COMICS 40 
** SUB-MARINER COMICS 40/4 
** SUB-MARINER COMICS 41 
** SUB-MARINER COMICS 41/4 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 42 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 42/4 

CV 1-FB <- in wrong spot, this occurs while Namor was with the All-Winners Squad, and should be moved 
CV 2-FB <-IN wrong spot, move 
M/:LG 3 <-Remove, in wrong spot. (Namor already amnesiac, 6 years after Antarctic city was destroyed) 
M/:LG 7 ~ M/:LG 3 <-Remove, in wrong spot. 
M/:LG 3 <-Remove, in wrong spot. 

**SAGASM 6-FB (11-12:4) (In 1955, Namor attempts to join the U.N.) 
SUB-M2 1-FB (10:4-10:6) 
** SAGASM 6-FB (11:5) 
** SUB-M2 1-FB (10:7-11:1) 
** SAGASM 6-FB (12:2) 
** SUB-M2 1-FB (11:2) 
** SAGASM 6-FB (12:4-12:6) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (14-15) (Namor returns home after the UN incident) 
CV2 1 <-Remove, In Wrong spot. (1953) 
SUB-M 1 (7:2 - 13:4)-FB <-s/b SUB-M 1 (7:2)-FB 
**SAGASM 6-FB (16:3-16:4) 
** SUB-M 1 -FB (8:1) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (16:5) 
** SUB-M 1 -FB (8:2) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (17:2) 
** SUB-M 1 -FB (8:3-12:1) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (20:1-20:5) 
** SUB-M 1 -FB (12:2-12:6) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (21:4) 
** SUB-M 1 -FB (13:1-13:2) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (22) 
** SUB-M 1 -FB (13:3-13:4) 
ASM -1 (Has Amnesia, and beard) 
**M/:LG 3 <-s/b placed here. (Namor already amnesiac, 6 years after Antarctic city was destroyed) 
**M/:LG 7 ~ M/:LG 3 <-s/b placed here. 
**M/:LG 3 <-s/b placed here. 
TB -1 (Has Amnesia, and beard) 
SUB-M 1 (13:5 - 13:6)-FB 
TM:ID 
{FF 4} 
TM:ID 
FF 4 


PRENTISS, BETTY DEAN 
. 
INV 4 
M/U 1 
**MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82/2 
**NAMORA 2/4 
**YOUNG MEN 24/3 
**YOUNG MEN 25/3 
**YOUNG MEN 26/3 
**MENS ADVENTURES 27/3 
**SAGASM 6-FB (7:1) 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 34/2 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 35 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 35/4 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 36 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 36/4 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 37-BTS 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 37/4 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 38-FB 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 38/4 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 41/4 
{SUB-M 8-FB} 
SUB-M 8 
SUB-M 52 
SUB-M 54 
SUB-M 55 
SUB-M 57 
DEF 5 
SUB-M 61 
SUB-M 62-BTS 
SUB-M 70 
SVTU 2 

DORMA [ATLANTEAN] 
SAGASM 2-FB (Dorma watches Namor play with Namora and Byrrah) 
**SAGASM 2-FB (Dorma follows Namor, and pleads with him to let her go with him) 
**MARVEL COMICS 1/3 (Dorma wishes to accompany Namor to New York, he agrees that she can go part-way) 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/2 (Namor tells her to keep out of his way) 
**MARVEL COMICS 1/3 (The see Cape Anna lighthouse) 
**MARVEL COMICS 1/3 (Namor and Dorma destroy the lighthouse) 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 32/2 (Namor and Dorma go to New York City harbor.) 
SAGASM 5-FB <-REMOVE, IN WRONG SPOT (THIS IS POST WW II) 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 10 <-S/B MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 10/3 
**SAGASM 5-FB (22) 
**YOUNG MEN 28/3 
**SAGASM 6-FB (15) 
{FF@ 1} 
FF 33-FB 
FF 33 
DD 7 
TTA 70 


*EMPOROR THAKKOR 
 
**MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82/2 
**SAGASM 6-FB (4:1-4:3) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (4:4-4:6)-OP 
**SAGASM 6-FB (5:2-5:4) 
**YOUNG MEN 28/3 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 35 
**SAGASM 6-FB (8:5-9:3) 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 38 (2-4) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (10:1) 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 38 (5-6:3) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (10:5-10:6) 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 40/4 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 41 
**SAGASM 6-FB (14-15) 
**SUB-M 1-FB (7:2) 
**SAGSM 6-FB (16:3-16:4) 
**SUB-M 1-FB (8:1) 
**SUB-M 1-FB (11:1-11:2) 


NAMORA/AQUARIA NAUTICA NEPTUNIA [ATLANTEAN] 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 39/2 
**SAGASM 2-FB (Namora says I cant fly, but I can do anything else you can) 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 39/2 (She meets Byrrah and Merrino) 
**SAGASM 2-FB (Namora tags along with Namor to the sunken submarine) 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 39/2 
ORDER 6-FB 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 40/2 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82 <-S/B MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82/2 (1-3:5) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (4:4-4:6) 
** MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82/2 (3:6-4:1) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (5:2-5:5) 
** MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82/2 (4:2-4:4) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (6:1-6:2) 
** MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 82/2 (4:5-:11) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (6:3-6:4) 
** N 20 (14)-FB 
**NAMORA 1 
**NAMORA 1 /2 
**NAMORA 1/3 
**NAMORA 2 
**NAMORA 2/3 
**NAMORA 2/4 
**NAMORA 3 
**NAMORA 3/2 
**NAMORA 3/4 
**YOUNG MEN 27/3 
**MENS ADVENTURES 27/3 
**HUMAN TORCH 37/3 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 34/2 
**MENS ADVENTURES 28/3 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 35 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 36 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 36/4 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 37 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 38 (1) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (8:5-9:3) 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 38 (2-4) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (10:5-10:6) 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 40/4 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 41 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 42 
CV2 1 
M/:LG 2 
{SUB-M 33-FB} 
N 20-FB 
M/:LG 3 
SUB-M 51-FB 
SUB-M 50 

PRINCESS FEN [ATLANTEAN] 
 
CA:SL2 2 
CA:SL2 3 
CA:SL2 4 
**SAGASM 5-FB (21-22) 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 36 
**SAGASM 6-FB (14-15) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (16:2-16:4) 
**SUB-M 1-FB (8:1) 
**SUB-M 1-FB (11:1-11:2) 
N 39-FB 
N 36-FB 
{N 29} 
N 30 


BYRRAH/ [ATLANTEAN] 
SAGASM 2-FB <- s/b SAGASM 2-FB-FB 
**SUB-MARINER 35/2 
**SUB-MARINER 36/2 
**SUB-MARINER 37/2 
** SAGASM 2-FB 
**SUB-MARINER 39/2 
** SAGASM 2-FB 
**SUB-MARINER 39/2 
** SAGASM 2-FB 
**SUB-MARINER 39/2 
**SUB-MARINER 40/2 
**SUB-MARINER 41/2 
SAGASM 2-FB (suggests to Thakkor, that now is the time to order Namor into battle) 
SAGASM 5-FB 
**{SUB-MARINER COMICS 35} 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 36/4 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 37/4 
**SAGASM 6-FB (8:5-9:3) 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 38 (2-4) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (10:5-10:6) 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 38 (6:4-8) 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 40/4 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 41 
**SAGASM 6-FB (14-15) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (16:3-16:4) 
M/:LG 3 
{TTA 90} 
TTA 91 
SUB-M 51-FB 
SUB-M 33 
SUB-M 51-FB 
SUB-M 50 
SUB-M 51 

DESTINY/PAUL DESTINE 
IM&SM 1/2-FB (Joins Leonard McKenzies expedition) 
**SAGASM 1-FB (Reminds Leonard about his promise to look for city of the ancients) 
**SAGASM 1-FB (Leonard and Paul Destine watches explosions) 
** SAGASM 1-FB (Destine and other crew members fight Fen, who allows herself to be captured.) 
** SAGASM 1-FB (Brings Fen into Leonards cabin, tells him theory that she is one of the ancients) 
** SAGASM 1-FB (Leonard prepares expedition to find city of ancients) 
** IM&SM 1/2-FB (goes up ice mountain with McKenzie) 
** SAGASM 1-FB (Leonard and Destine find cave) 
** IM&SM 1/2-FB (Leonard and Destine find ancients dynamo, Paul wont share it, breaks ice, avalanche occurs) 
SUB-M 1-FB <-S/B SUB-M 1-FB-BTS (7:2) 
** SUB-M 1-FB-BTS (8:2) 
** SUB-M 1-FB (9:2-12:1) 
{TTA 101/2} 
IM&SM 1/2 
SUB-M 1 
SUB-M 6 
SUB-M 7 
SUB-M 8-FB 

KRANG [ATLANTEAN] 
SAGASM 1-FB 
SAGASM 5-FB 
**SAGASM 6-FB (14-15) 
**SAGASM 6-FB (16:3-16:4) 
M/:LG 3 
{FF@ 1} 
DD 7 
TTA 70 


IKTHON 
**SAGASM 1-FB (gives Fen the breathing potion) 
**SAGASM 1-FB (Tells Thakkor he has a grandson) 
SAGASM 5-FB 
{SUB-M 7} 
SUB-M 9 
SUB-M 15-FB 
SUB-M 15 
SUB-M 16 
SUB-M 17 
SUB-M 21 
SUB-M 22 
SUB-M 31 
SUB-M 32 
SUB-M 34-BTS 
SUB-M 35 
SUB-M 37 
SUB-M 38-FB 

U-MAN/MERRANO 
SAGASM 2-FB 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 39/2 (According to Sagasm 2, he is the friend of Byrrahs in this story) 
**SAGASM 2-FB 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 39/2 
**SAGASM 2-FB 
**SUB-MARINER COMICS 39/2 
INV 4-FB (7:5) 
**SAGASM 5-FB (10:5-11:1) 
** INV 4-FB (7:6) 
{INV 3-FB} 
INV 4 
INV 37 
INV 38 
INV 39 
INV 40 
INV 41 


BLONDE PHANTOM (See Louise Mason) <S/B (LOUISE GRANT MASON) 
** S-H2 22-FB 
**NAMORA 2/2 
**CONTINUES AS Louise Mason 

*MASON, MARK 
NAMORA 2/2 

TRUMAN, HARRY S 
**WI?4 
**YOUNG MEN 24/3-FB 
CA 155-FB 

*EL DIABLO 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 39/4

			*	*	*

Sep 09, 2007 2:33 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Charles S. Thomas was the Secretary of the Navy from May 3, 1954 to April 1, 1957, so that would probably be him in SUB-M 41/4.

			*	*	*

Sep 09, 2007 4:44 pm 
By Enda80

Byrrah was one of the youths in Young Men#28. SAGASM confirms this.

			*	*	*

Sep 09, 2007 6:34 pm 
By Dhall

Issue, page, panel please? SAGASM 6 doesn't mention Young Men #28, so I have no idea what you are talking about. If it's later than #6, I haven't read it yet. 

Thank You.

			*	*	*

Sep 09, 2007 6:56 pm 
By Enda80

SAGASM#2.

			*	*	*

Sep 09, 2007 7:12 pm 
By Dhall

What does Sagasm #2 have to do with Young Men #28, which won't happen for years after the part of Namor's life chronicled in Sagasm #2? 

Would you do me a favor, and stop being cryptic?

			*	*	*

Sep 09, 2007 7:50 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Am I missing something here, or wasn't Byrrah roughly the same age as Namor? How could Byrrah be a youth in Young Men 28?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 10, 2007 12:05 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

So I pulled out and read Saga of the Sub-Mariner #2. In Thomas' editorial in the back, he had this to say, paraphrased: 

Between Sub-Mariner Comics 36-42, Bill Everett created seven tales of young Namor, and they formed the basis of the second issue of this series.(Saga of the Sub-Mariner) He also mentions that Sub-Mariner Comics 33 retold Namor's first appearance.(I'm not sure if this was the main story or the back-up, so I'm afraid I'm no help there, Dave) 

What I didn't see, was any mention of Young Men 28. 

So Enda80. Dude. What the Hell are you talking about? 

PS: I checked. Byrrah was roughly the same age as Namor. So again, what are you talking about here?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 10, 2007 4:13 am 
By Enda80

in update '89#4 or 5's back page, Young Men#28 is noted as an appearance of unnamed Byrrah.

			*	*	*

Sep 10, 2007 5:15 am 
By Dhall

Update 89 #4 doesn't really seem to be too clear on that point. 

Note the use of the words "probably" and "if" 

"Byrrah's first appearance is probably in Young Men #28, cover dated June 1954, although he is unnamed. If that was not truly Byrrah, then Byrrah appears as an unnamed character in Sub-Mariner #35, cover dated August, 1954." 

Well no, Byrrah's first verifiable appearance is as a fully NAMED character in Sub-Mariner #35. Since they are quite wrong in the second part of that paragraph, I don't know how much credibility the first part has.

			*	*	*

Sep 10, 2007 8:37 am 
By Somebody
Director

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
in update '89#4 or 5's back page, Young Men#28 is noted as an appearance of unnamed Byrrah.
<<<

So SagaSM 6, SagaSM 2, Update '89 #4 or Upsate '89 #5. 

Any other issues? You might as well list them all in one go....

			*	*	*

Sep 10, 2007 1:40 pm 
By Frederic Krier

Looking at Young Men 28/3 (as reprinted in the Atlas Heroes Masterworks), there is a character daunting Namor on page 2, who looks like Byrrah and behaves like Byrrah, and presumably evolved into Byrrah (and I'm also pretty certain that I was under the assumption that this was Byrrah when I first read the story). 

I'd agree with the OHOTMU Update that this is "probably" Byrrah's first appearance. And the Master edition #24 lists Young Men 28 as his first "modern" appearance anyway, so I would tend towards including it.

			*	*	*

Sep 10, 2007 4:49 pm 
By Dhall

Frederic, 
The problem with doing that, is that the character in question is NOT Byrrah. Sure he acts like him, and is very much a proto-Byrrah, but read page 2 and 3 of the story again, and you will notice Dorma saying  You saw how that guardsman reacted to your return? Well thats how almost everyone feels, Youre in great disfavor in the Empire, now Namor. The character on page 2 is in fact a common guardsman, and is dressed like an guard by the way. Hes certainly not a prince of the realm. And given that, I have no idea what the Master edition is talking about. 


Dave H.

			*	*	*

Thread 33

Subject: Spider-Man & Wolverine 1-4

Sep 09, 2007 11:07 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Spider-Man/Wolverine #1 
Published: August, 2003 

Appearances: 
Spider-Man, Wolverine, Aunt May, Col. Nick Fury-FB, 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: now 
Peter is interrogated!(its Aunt May) 
Pg4-pg10-FB 
Pete wakes up, takes a shower, talks to Aunt May on the phone, and goes to work at school. Hes sent an envelope during class, which includes photographs of him as Spider-Man, and a note to go to the roof. Hes greeted by Col. Fury, who has a job for him. 
Pg11: now 
Peter & Aunt May chat. 
Pg12-pg13-FB 
Peter doesnt really want to do the job for Fury, but hes informed that hes doing it anyway. 
Pg14: now 
Peter & Aunt May chat. 
Pg15-pg22-FB 
Spider-Man is dropped into Japan, where he finds Wolverine tied up and surrounded by goons, and frees him. 
Pg23: now 
Logan arrives at Peters & Aunt Mays chat. 

References: 
As revealed in issue 4, the interrogator is Aunt May. She knows hes Spider-Man here, and she seems pretty cool with it, so this most likely occurs after Peter Parker vol2 #50. Mary Jane is nowhere to be seen, and theres no mention of where she is. Since this has to occur after Peter Parker vol2 #50, thats not much of a placement clue. 

Nick Fury knows who Spider-Man is, which isnt a problem, because hes Nick Fury. Peter is surprised by this, so this has to occur before the Flashbacks in Secret War where he isnt surprised that Nick Fury knows who he is. 

Spider-Man/Wolverine #2 
Published: September, 2003 

Appearances: 
Spider-Man, Wolverine, Aunt May, Mr. Fantastic-FB, Invisible Woman-FB 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3-FB: 15 to 20 years ago maybe 12 
Wolverine has been sent to Japan to get the scoop on an unscrupulous individual.(Takeshi) He becomes distracted by his daughter 
Pg4-pg5: now 
Peter, Logan, & Aunt May chat. 
Pg6-FB 
Wolverine attacks his captors. 
Pg7: now 
Peter, Logan, & Aunt May chat. 
Pg8-pg16-FB 
Spider-Man & Wolverine fight the captors, escape, and Wolverine gets some clothes. 
Pg17-pg18: now 
Peter, Logan, & Aunt May chat. 
Pg19-pg21-FB 
After calling the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man & Wolverine put a plan together. 
Pg22: now 
Peter, Logan, & Aunt May chat. 
Pg23-FB 
Wolverine has been hit by a car in Paris, Spider-Man is swinging above. 

References: 
Somewhere between 12 & 20 years ago, Wolverine is wearing his classic tiger-stripe suit, but without the whiskers on his mask. Since hes doing espionage related stuff here, it seems to fit best during his time with the Canadian government, after his encounter with the Hulk,(whiskers) and before he defects.(no whiskers) 

Pg23-FB takes place between pages of next issue. 

Spider-Man/Wolverine #3 
Published: October, 2003 

Appearances: 
Spider-Man, Wolverine, Aunt May, Col. Nick Fury-FB, Cyclops-FB-VO 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: now 
Peter, Logan, & Aunt May chat. 
Pg2-pg8-FB 
In Paris, Spider-Man & Wolverine discover a laboratory and a bomb explodes. Afterwards, Wolverine is hit by a car. 
Pg9: now 
Peter, Logan, & Aunt May chat. 
Pg10-pg12-FB 
The car drives with Wolverine on the hood, pg23-FB of last issue goes between pg11 & pg12. 
Pg13: now 
Peter, Logan, & Aunt May chat. 
Pg14-pg18-FB 
Wolverine interrogates the driver. Later, an X-Jet arrives, sent by Cyclops. Wolverine thanks him over the phone. 
Pg19: now 
Peter, Logan, & Aunt May chat. 
Pg20-pg22-FB 
Spider-Man & Wolverine are outside a secret laboratory when Nick Fury & some S.H.I.E.L.D. agents arrive. Fury shoots Wolverine in the face. 

References: 
Cyclops voice is heard but we dont see him, giving him a voice-over. 

Spider-Man/Wolverine #4 
Published: November, 2003 

Appearances: 
Spider-Man, Wolverine, Aunt May, Col. Nick Fury-FB, Thor-FB-FB 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: now 
Peter, Logan, & Aunt May chat. 
Pg2-pg3-FB-FB 
Thor fights dragons over a city, a young Dr. Brecker watches. 
Pg4-pg5-FB 
Fury tells Wolverine & Spider-Man a story. 
Pg6-FB-FB 
Dr. Brecker starts Stuff of Legends. 
Pg7-pg8-FB 
Fury explains that hes deactivated Wolverines healing factor temporarily. 
Pg9-FB-FB 
Wolverine is apprehended, and Dr. Brecker does some tests on him, discovering how to counteract his healing factor. 
Pg10-pg11-FB 
Spider-Man & Wolverine put a plan together. 
Pg12: now 
Peter, Logan, & Aunt May chat. 
Pg13-pg22-FB 
Spider-Man & Wolverine blow up Dr. Breckers lab. 
Pg23-pg25: now 
Peter invites Logan to stay and eat with him & Aunt May. 

References: 
Dr. Brecker is a boy when he sees Thor fight dragons, so pg2-pg3-FB-FB occurs roughly 50 to 60 years ago. 

Pg9-FB-FB occurs shortly before issue 1s FlashBacks. 

Some placement suggestions; current-day portions based on Paul B.s Calendar: 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
 
ASM2 54 
*SM&W 1-FB
*SM&W 2 (1-22)-FB
*SM&W 3 (1-11)-FB
*SM&W 2 (23)-FB
*SM&W 3 (12-22)-FB
*SM&W 4-FB
*SM&W 1
*SM&W 2
*SM&W 3
*SM&W 4 
ASM2 55 
 

WOLVERINE/"LOGAN"/JAMES HOWLETT 
 
{H2 180} 
H2 181 
H2 182 
*SM&W 2 (1-3)-FB 
AF 9/2 
M/CP 51-FB 
GSX 1 (5 - 6) 
 
W3 6 
*SM&W 4-FB-FB
*SM&W 1-FB
*SM&W 2 (4-22)-FB
*SM&W 3 (1-11)-FB
*SM&W 2 (23)-FB
*SM&W 3 (12-22)-FB
*SM&W 4-FB
*SM&W 1
*SM&W 2
*SM&W 3
*SM&W 4 
XX 20 
 

PARKER, MAY REILLY 
 
PPTSS2 8 
*SM&W 1-FB
*SM&W 1
*SM&W 2
*SM&W 3
*SM&W 4 
PPTSS2 14-FB 
ASM2 57 
 

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
 
IM3 69 
*SM&W 1-FB 
*SM&W 3-FB 
*SM&W 4-FB 
FF 504 
 

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS 
 
FF3 66 
*SM&W 2-FB 
FF3 68 
 

INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUE STORM RICHARDS 
 
FF3 66 
*SM&W 2-FB 
FF3 68 
 

THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" [ASGARDIAN] 
 
VENUS 12 
VENUS 13 
*SM&W 4-FB-FB 
M/:LG 5 
 

CYCLOPS II/SCOTT SUMMERS 
 
UX 421 
CHAMBER 4 
*SM&W 3-FB-VO 
W/CA 4 
UX 423 


Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 10, 2007 9:14 am 
By Somebody
Director

Wait, if AM is only revealed in #4, shouldn't she be OP/VO/BTS/STL for #1-3?

			*	*	*

Sep 10, 2007 5:18 pm 
By Enda80

THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" [ASGARDIAN] 
 
VENUS 12 
VENUS 13 
*SM&W 4-FB-FB 
M/:LG 5 

That is interesting. I feel glad enough that the writer had a grasp of the sliding timescale and did not slip in a cameo by Captain America or Daredevil or Doctor Strange or the Hulk or anyone else who might create continuity granny knots.

			*	*	*

Sep 10, 2007 11:15 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Wait, if AM is only revealed in #4, shouldn't she be OP/VO/BTS/STL for #1-3?
<<<

Nah, she's actually there on panel, in shadows. We often see her hands and stuff.Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Subject: Rawhide Kid v3 1-5

Sep 12, 2007 12:27 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Rawhide Kid #1 
Art: John Severin! 
Published: April, 2003 

Appearances: Rawhide Kid(Johnny Bart), Cisco Pike, Sherriff Matt Morgan 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22 
Cisco Pike and his evil gang ride into town, beat up the Sherriff, and kill the Deputy. The Rawhide Kid arrives and does some sit-ups. 

References: 
No mention of when this happens, aside from the Old West. 

All in one day, for anyone putting together an Old West Calendar 

Rawhide Kid #2 
Art: John Severin! 
Published: May, 2003 

Appearances: Rawhide Kid(Johnny Bart), Cisco Pike, Sherriff Matt Morgan 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: day after last issue 
The Rawhide Kid chats with Cisco Pike and his gang. Meanwhile, the Sherriff interviews for a new deputy. That night the Sherriff hires the Rawhide Kid as the new deputy. Elsewhere, Cisco Pike has hired some gunfighters to take care of the Rawhide Kid. 

References: 
A man named Barney Phife is interviewed for the Deputy position, and his old Sherriff only let him carry one bullet for his gun 

Rawhide Kid #3 
Art: John Severin! 
Published: May, 2003 

Appearances: Rawhide Kid(Johnny Bart), Cisco Pike, Sherriff Matt Morgan 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: day after last issue 
One of Ciscos men attacks the Sherriff and Rawhide Kid arrests him. 

References: 
Hoss & Little Joe Cartwright show up a day late and a dollar short to interview for the deputy position 

The local school teacher, Laura Ingalls, plans to write a book about growing up in her small house on the prairie. Matt suggests she change the name to little, instead of small 

Rawhide Kid #4 
Art: John Severin! 
Published: June, 2003 

Appearances: Rawhide Kid(Johnny Bart), Cisco Pike, Sherriff Matt Morgan 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg13: same day as last issue 
The Sherriff is taken to the hospital. 
Pg14-FB 
A young Johnny Bart is teased by a crowd of kids. His drunk father comes along and beats him up, cursing the day Johnnys mother died. 
Pg15-pg22: same day as pg1-pg13 
The Rawhide Kid puts a plan together to defeat Cisco Pike and his outlaws. 

References: 
I dont know much about the Rawhide Kid was it ever revealed that his mother died when he was young? Does this interfere with anything previously established? 

Rawhide Kid #5 
Art: John Severin! 
Published: June, 2003 

Appearances: Rawhide Kid(Johnny Bart), Cisco Pike, Sherriff Matt Morgan 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg20: same night as last issue 
The Rawhide Kid & the Sherriff kill Cisco Pike and all of his outlaws. 
Pg21: some time later 
Sherriff Morgan & Laura get married. 
Pg22-pg24: a short time later 
The Rawhide Kid says his good-byes and leaves. 

References: 
The Sherriff is still bandaged at his wedding, so theres not a whole lot of time that passes between pg20 & pg21. 

The end of this issue rips off the ending to Shane 

There were a few more Hollywood references, but I got tired of them. I should mention that the non-Marvel fictional characters appearing here had their names misspelled. Probably to avoid lawsuits or something. 

Im not sure where this mini should be placed in the Rawhide Kids chronology, but I'll suggest near the end, if only because it was published last.(before Apache Skies & Blaze of Glory, of course) 

Plot and several gratuitous Hollywood references aside, John Severin did the art, and I loves me some John Severin art. 

RAWHIDE KID/JOHNNY BART 
*RK3 4-FB 
KID COLT OUTLAW 201 
TCORPS 3 
 
BP3 46 
BP3 47 
*RK3 1
*RK3 2
*RK3 3
*RK3 4
*RK3 5

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 12, 2007 10:50 pm 
By dimadick

"A young Johnny Bart is teased by a crowd of kids. His drunk father comes along and beats him up, cursing the day Johnnys mother died." 

"I dont know much about the Rawhide Kid was it ever revealed that his mother died when he was young? Does this interfere with anything previously established?" 

According to his profile in the "International Catalogue of Superheroes" which also lists the various Timely and Atlas characters: 

"After his parents were killed by Indians, the infant Johnny Clay was adopted and raised by his uncle, Texas Ranger Ben Bart. Ben treated the boy like he was his own son, and taught him to use a pistol; by the time he was a teenager, Johnny was an expert shot. 

Johnny was a young man when his foster father was gunned down by a pair of drifters, Spade and Hawk Brown; enraged, Johnny hunted them down and killed them in a shoot-out. With nothing to hold him to one place any more, Johnny began to wander the West lending aid to those who needed it, becoming known as the Rawhide Kid." 

So both his natural parents dies when he was young and he was adopted by what I assume to be a maternal uncle. Last name changing from "Clay" to "Bart". Any idea if the drunk portrayed is his natural father or Ben Bart?

			*	*	*

Sep 12, 2007 11:19 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

dimadick wrote:
>>>
Any idea if the drunk portrayed is his natural father or Ben Bart?
<<<

Since according to the International Catalogue of Superheroes Johnny's natural parents were killed when he was an infant, I would have to assume Ben Bart.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Thread 35

Subject: MSH 16/2 and some other Torch stuff

Sep 12, 2007 9:13 pm 
By Dhall

MSH 16/2 and some Torch clean-up notes 

There is one last 1950s era Human Torch story that I did not include in my 50s revival chronology, for the simple reason that it was published in 1968, in Marvel Super-Heroes 16. (Note the key lists the 1960s M/SH series w/o a volume #, but there was a one shot (I think all reprint) volume in 1966) 

We know that this story is supposed to take place in the 50s era, due to some comments in the 1st volume of the Avengers Index. That volume was of course published before SAGAHT. 

According to the index, this story is supposed to be the final appearance of HT and Toro prior to the flashback in A 134. Due to SAGAHT, this is impossible, as SAGAHT 4 clearly establishes CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 78/3 as the final 50s era appearance of both HT and Toro. Theres no reason to push this story up any further than one notch, and place it between Sub-Mariner Comics 35/3, and Cap 78/3. 

An important point to note about this story, is that Toro is actually narrating, and thus, the whole story is a flashback, except for his narration, which comes at some point later in time, probably after the end of the Torchs career due to the explosion, and prior to Toros appearance in Sub-Mariner 14. (We see his face in with the narration, so Ive listed it as an actual appearance, rather than a BTS app.) 

I also want to clean up some of the flashback listings, regarding A 134 and 135. 

One thing Ive tried to do consistently in my listings, is to make sure that everywhere SAGAHT 1-4 appear, they are labeled as SAGAHT #-FB, as the entire series is told in flashback by the Human Torch during some point after his revival in West Coast Avengers. (Exactly the same way we are treating SAGASM in the MCP.) (Does right after WCA 56/2 work for the narration point? ) 


Marvel Super Heroes 16/2 
Characters Appearing: 
Human Torch (in fb only) 
Toro (narrating, and in flashback) 
Dr. Carter 
Un-Human 
Comrade X (BTS in flashback only, if a real character) 

Synopsis: 
A big gizmo flies through the sky, and drops leaflets warning the humans that they will soon be killed by the Un-Human, as they (the aliens) need Earth to handle their overpopulation problem. The note is signed by Comrade X Red Planet. After reading one of these notes, the Torch and Toro see a grotesque creature parachuting from the alien ship. It has eight faces, and six ugly limbs. T and T go into action, and attack the creature, but it is flame resistant, and they do no damage. They then attempt to destroy its chute, but that doesnt work either. Torch warns Toro not too get too close, as the Un-Human may be poisonous, but its too late, and Toro is attacked, and poisoned by it. Torch catches him , and takes him to the nearest doctor. The Un-Human meanwhile, starts destroying buildings. Doctor Carter examines Toro, and tells him that he needs an immediate blood transfusion from the Torch. (Im not sure why this would work, the Torch being an android and all, but there you go) The Torch must choose between saving Toro, and saving the city. Just as he is about to say which choice hes made, the Un-Human attacks the building, ripping a hole in the wall. The Torch borrows a jug of chloroform from the doctor, and throws it into the creatures mouth, knocking it out. He reasons that the police can chain it up, and finish the job with gas. The Torch returns to Toro, and gives him the blood transfusion that he needs. When Toro wakes, his first thought is to go to help Torch fight the Un-Human, but then he realizes the Torch is already in the room with him. After an explanation, Toro thanks Torch for helping him. 


A 134 Flashback related to the Torch and Toro: 
Page 5-6:4 This is a recap of Young Men 24-FB, and adds nothing new. 

Page 6:6-6:9 is narrated by the Vision, (whom on page 5 admits to having a less than perfect recall of various discussions of the first heroic age) Torch says goodbye to Toro, and leaves him on personal business (really since he is dying of radiation poisoning.) Torch flies off alone, into the desert, and goes Nova. 

This flashback is directly contradicted by SAGAHT 4, where The Torch and Toro are returning from Korea, and the Torch goes Nova. Therefore, 6:6-6:9 is no longer canon, and has to be written off as Visions recollection of a story that someone else told him (which is exactly how this flashback is presented in A 134.) (Also Avengers Index v.2 #3 lists HT and Toros last app. before A 134, as SAGAHT 4, not A 134-fb.) 

A 131, 132, and GSA 3 must therefore occur, between pages of SAGAHT 4. 

Page 13 Panels 2-5: The Mad Thinker recovers the body of the Human Torch and brings him back to life, to fight the FF. (Precedes FF 4) 


A 135 Fbs 
Page 1-2,6: Ultron finds the body of the Human Torch (after FF 4) 

Page 10-12: Six Months later, after having failed to revive the Torch, Ultron seeks out Professor Horton. He forces Horton to help him turn the Torch into the Vision. 

Page 14-15: Vision awakes with HTs memories. Ultron considers this a betrayal, and kills Horton. 

Page 16-18: Ultron subdues the Vision/Torch, wipes his mind, and revives him. 

AVF 8-Fb:This Fb reveals that Immortus diverged the timestream so that there are now 2 human torchs, the original, and the one that Ultron turned into the Vision. SO A 135-Fb should be removed from the original Human Torchs listing. 









I will label items from my 50s Revival: Torch thread, not yet in MCP with one star, and new items for this thread, with two stars. 

Human Torch 
*HUMAN TORCH 38/4 
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 35/3 
**M/SH 16/2-FB 
*SAGAHT 4-FB (Torch and Toro at the White House) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 78 <-S/B CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 78/3 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 33 <-REMOVE, in wrong spot 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 34<-REMOVE, in wrong spot 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 35<-REMOVE, in wrong spot 

A 134-FB <- Remove, no longer canon per SAGAHT 4. 
SAGAHT 4 <-s/b SAGAHT 4-FB 
A 131 
A 132 
GSA 3 
A 134-FB <- Remove, no longer canon per SAGAHT 4. 
**SAGAHT 4-FB (Torch goes Nova) 
{FF@ 4} 
AVF 8-FB (Immortus diverges the timestream) 
A 134-FB <-Remove, All the fbs in A 134 occur before FF @ 4 
A 135-FB <- Per AVF 8, Remove, not the same Human Torch 
A 134-FB <-Remove, All the fbs in A 134 occur before FF @ 4 
A 135-FB <- Per AVF 8, Remove, not the same Human Torch 
**AVF 8-FB (Mad Thinker finds the Torch, and has a funeral for him, in order to capture Toro) 
**AWC 50 (Torchs funeral) 
AWC 50 
AWC 51 
AWC 52 
AWC 56/2 
**SAGAHT 1-BTS (Torch narrates the story of his life.) 
**SAGAHT 2-BTS 
**SAGAHT 3-BTS 
**SAGAHT 4-BTS 
A@ 18 
AWC@ 4 
FF@ 22 
AWC 53 
AWC 54 
AWC 56 
AWC 57 
AWC 58 
AWC@ 5 
A@ 19 
AWC 63-FB 
AWC 63 
AWC 64 
AWC 65/2 


Toro 
*HUMAN TORCH 38/4 
* SUB-MARINER COMICS 35/3 
**M/SH 16/2-FB 
*SAGAHT 4-FB (Torch and Toro at the White House) 
*CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 78/3 
SAGAHT 4 <-S/B SAGAHT 4-FB (Torch burns white hot, and buries himself in the desert sands) 
A 134-FB <- Remove, no longer canon per SAGAHT 4. 
**M/SH 16/2 (narration, or could be listed as -BTS if needed) 
**AVF 8-FB (Toro appears at Torchs funeral) 
**AWC 50-FB (5:3-4) (Torchs funeral) 
{SUB-M 14 (19:3 - 19:5)-FB} 
SUB-M 14 (9:5 - 11:1)-FB 
SUB-M 14 


RAYMOND, ANN 
SUB-M 14-FB 
**AWC 50-FB 
AWC 48 
AWC 50 
AWC 51 
AWC 52 
AWC 53 
PP 60 
AWC 56 
AWC 63-FB 
AWC 63 
AWC 65/2 
N 9 
N 10-BTS 
N 11 
N 12 


Sub-Mariner 
SUB-M 13 
SUB-M 14 
**AWC 50-FB 
SUB-M 15 
SUB-M 16

			*	*	*

Sep 13, 2007 3:55 pm 
By Enda80

Avengers West Coast#42 has another scene of the Torch's last hurrah in the 1950's.

			*	*	*

Sep 13, 2007 9:38 pm 
By Dhall

Thanks Edna! That certainly would have come out before SAGAHT 4, making it new material. When I get a chance I will update my analysis.

			*	*	*

Thread 36

Subject: Spider-Man Family vol. 2 #3 & 4

Sep 08, 2007 2:46 am
By JLH

This analysis is dedicated to my cat, Mittens, who recently passed away. He enjoyed rubbing his face and whiskers against many comic edges, and frequently lounged around on some of my long boxes, getting more use out of my collection than I often do. 
------------------------------------ 
SPIDER-MAN FAMILY, Vol 2. #3 [August 2007] 
"Electrical Problems!" 
Writer: Paul Tobin 
Art: Pierre Alary 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
GOMDULLA
INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUE STORM RICHARDS (as the Invisible Girl) 
HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM
THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM
MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
JAMESON, J. JONAH
LEEDS, BETTY BRANT
PARKER, MAY REILLY (BTS) 
ELECTRO/MAX DILLON 


Summary: The giant mummy man called Gomdulla is climbing a skyscraper! The Fantastic Four are on the scene! But Spider-Man drops in to help out, aiding in taking the lumbering creature down, with only Sue thanking him for the help. Later, Peter sells pictures of the event to Jonah, yet is unable to get a little more money to help pay for his Aunt's overdue electric bill. The next day, while Reed and Ben work on some important jet engine experiment, Sue scolds Johnny for indebiting their general account for $26,000 car customization. She heads down to the bank to cancel the payment. Soon at the bank, Peter is there trying to get his payment in to clear in time, and Sue's there griping about the amount, when Electro appears! He's robbing the bank! So, Peter slips off and changes to his Spidey outfit, while Sue goes invisible and contacts her teammates while trying to sneak up behind Electro with a brick. But Spidey goes to hit him and, not seeing Sue, punches her while trying to hit the villain! Of course, the other three FF appear just in time to see him cradling her unconscious body. She mutters "Spider-Man... hit me..." and Reed immediately knocks Spidey out of the bank with a punch. Thing & Human Torch start to battle Spider-Man, despite his protests, with Electro getting shots in on the pair, making them think their target is behind these attacks. During the melee, Thing knocks down the brick wall of the bank exterior, and is barely able to cause it to fall away from Reed and Sue, aided by Spidey. This causes him to start to question his guilt. Finally, Peter outsmarts Johnny, tying him up with a ripped up car roof in front of a busted hydrant. He then strikes out at Ben, and is nearly pummelled before Sue awakens and tosses a shield in to protect him. Upon learning about Electro, the heroes find him hiding in the bank, he's chased out, and Sue aids in stopping him by lifting him off the ground with her force fields and allowing Spidey to knock him out. Thanked by Sue, apologized to by Ben, and still disliked by Johnny, Spider-Man departs. Peter later gets home, and finds the Parker residence is dark. He never got around to paying the light bill! 


Continuity notes: Considering Sue is still "Sue Storm", this must be before her wedding to Reed. Not to mention there's never any comments of her being his wife or even fiance. The recognition factor between the FF and Spidey is well engrained at this point (Spidey calls Thing "Ben" and IG "Sue", for instance), though Johnny says "nobody really knows anything about (spidey)". I'd probably put this some time just prior to DD 2, since it gives Electro a reason to want to break into the Baxter Building (other than the typical criminal reasons). 

The Fantasticar featured is the standard, classic, original flying bathtub version. 

Sue recognizes Electro, though I don't know if that's important at all. He doesn't know her, though. 

Sue uses a large handheld phone device to contact her teammates. 

Spidey claims he didn't know before this that his webbing could stop fire (or rather, he wasn't too sure of it before it successfully does so here). 

Sue has the ability to use her force field to levitate Electro. Maybe that kind of usage can be used for better placement? 


Goofs: The cover features the black band on it, attempting to match it up with the other BACK IN BLACK books, but Spidey doesn't appear in black at all this issue (the Venom symbiote appears, but that don't count). 

Aunt May's house and area looks more like it does in the movies than it traditionally does in the comics. 


Calendar notes: You don't have a calendar for back when this story takes place. But I will say that it's jacket weather, trees are green and full, and there's no moon visible at night. 

----------- 
Story 2: 
Scorpion in... "Namesake" 
Writer: Fred Van Lente 
Penciler: Leonard Kirk 
Inker: Terry Pallot 

Cast: 
VENOM
GARGAN, MACDONALD
SCORPION III/CARMILLA BLACK/THASANEE RAPPACCINI (also in FB) 
KHANATA, DEREK
NAGAYOSHI, NORIKO
SAREVA, AYNA 


Summary: The former villain called Scorpion, now the new Venom, Mac Gargan, may be a week away from 'reforming', but he's still got a trademark to defend. SHIELD operative and current user of the Scorpion handle complains to her boss, Khanata, over putting her up against actual criminals. Seems they're trying to boost her reputation as a super hero to try to get her to infiltrate the unregistered vigilante underground, and this was part of it. Noriko spots a post on "capisright.org" from "namesake", setting up a meeting with "green girl". That night, Scorpion goes to the meeting place, Fort Tryon Park in upper Manhattan. There, she's ambushed by Venom! With Noriko and Ayna giving her radio support, and Khanata supervising, she's forced to face the dangerous symbiote-Gargan combo. Upon learning of his weakness to loud sounds, Scorpion leads Venom to the Cloisters nearby, but he gets the drop on her and webs her up. Since his webbing is natural and sort of a toxin, Scorpion's powers kick in and she absorbs enough of it to form a green "neo-symbiote" over her body. With the added power, and the element of surprise, she beats the snot out of Venom, ending it by smashing the holy water holder over his head. When the neo-symbiote suddenly dissolves, Venom is able to escape, both he and the symbiote fearful of her capablities. With NYPD soon to show up, Scorpion must flee or else be arrested. Though she's still confused by Venom's hatred of her, Khanata informs her that while most people have to live up to their namesakes, she beat the stuffing out of her's. 


Flashbacks: Last night, one panel. Scorpion punching down a pair of gunrunners on the docks (same shot appears as a picture on the Daily Bugle the next morning). 


Continuity notes: "This story takes place just before the events depicted in CIVIL WAR: CHANGING SIDES." 

Hey, the Civil War must be in a lull, since the Daily Bugle is stuck doing a headline on "Scorpion 1; Smugglers 0". 

Scorpion refers to her defeat of the Hulk, footnoted to "Incredible Hulk 87". 


Calendar notes: New Venom there mentions on the first page of the tale that "our deal won't close for another week", concerning his Thunderbolts contract, I suppose. 

Page 1: Early morning, in an alleyway, Venom scares off some bums when he rages over the newspaper headline concerning the new Scorpion. 
Page 2: Still around daybreak, on the SHIELD Helicarrier, Scorpion complains to Khanata over the use of real gunrunners the night before. Venom posts a request on an anti-reg website in code, setting up a meeting, which the team is alerted to. 
Page 2 panel 4: FB. Scorpion fighting gunrunners on the dock circa dusk the night before. She expected it to be set-up to help her cover, but as it turned out, they were real. 
Pages 3-10: Night. Full moon. Lush green trees and grass all throughout the area. Scorpion goes to Fort Tryon Park, gets attacked by Venom, and getting radio support by Noriko, Ayna, and Khanata, leads him to the Cloisters. There, she gets webbed up by him, and absorbs power of the symbiote through it, turning into sort of a green neo-symbiote briefly enough to send Venom fleeing in fear following a beat down. 

----------- 
Story 3: 
A reprint of What If...? Vol. 1 #1. 

----------- 
Story 4: 
Spider-Man J: "The Bigger They Are.." 
Original Story and Art by Yamanaka Akira 
Translation: Yuko Fukami 
English Adaptation: Marc Sumerak 

Non-canon. 
----------- 
Story 5: 
The Mini Marvels present... "Hulk Date" 
Written and Illustrated by: Chris Giarrusso 

Non-canon. 

------------------------------------ 
SPIDER-MAN FAMILY, Vol 2. #4 [October 2007] 
"Tales of the Puppet Master!" 
Writer/Artist: Chris Eliopoulos 

Cast: 
PUPPET MASTER/PHILLIP MASTERS 

Other characters: 
Louis "Buddy" 
Trio of bullies 
"living" Spider-Man doll 


Summary: While sitting around on a park bench one day, making some evil puppets to aid in his taking over the world, Puppet Master is approached by a small boy called Buddy. He admires Phil's "toy", which, in this case, is a Spider-Man one. Buddy talks about how his three figures of Captain America, Thor, and Hulk were given to him by his mother before she died and how they're his best friends. Of course, he goes off to play, some bullies find him and toss his toys into a nearby lake. Instead of trying to get them out or anything, Phil, seeing this and reminded of his own loss of a mother at his age and similar run in with bullies, gives him his Spider-Man doll. The next day, once again in the park, Buddy is put upon by the Bullies. But this time, the Spidey doll, once swiped, fights back, webbing and beating up the punks! They flee, and Buddy begins to succumb to the dark side, planning on doing some bullying of his own... before realizing that good guys don't need to start trouble just to have fun. Buddy and Spidey head off together, best friends always looking out for one another. 

Continuity notes: Puppet Master is free and plotting world domination. So, place accordingly. Why's after Spidey, I havent a clue. 

The Spidey doll speaks in typical Spidey catch phrases, including the 60s' show's "Wallopin' Websnappers!" 


Page 1, panel 1: Generic shot of Puppet Master pulling the strings of the basic Fantastic Four, as puppets. 
Page 1 panels 2 & 3 through 4: Day, park, green all over, clear skies. In the park, Puppet Master meets Buddy, Buddy loses his toys to bullies, so he gives him his Spider-Man avatar doll thing. That night, Buddy sleeps with him (the doll that is, ya perv!) 
Pages 5-6: "The next day", bullies strike again, but the Spidey doll comes to life and beats them up. 

----------- 
Story 2: 
"The Producers" 
Written for the Stage by: Jeff Parker 
Set Design by: Leonard Kirk 
Stage Manager: Kris Justice 

Cast: 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE
WOO, JIMMY
MARVEL BOY III/ROBERT GRAYSON
HUMAN ROBOT/M-11
NAMORA/AQUARIA NAUTICA NEPTUNIA [ATLANTEAN] 
GORILLA-MAN/KEN HALE
VENUS/APHRODITE/VICTORIA NUTLEY "VICKI" STARR 

Other characters: 
Animalia leader (also in FB) 
Various members of Atlas Playhouse 


Summary: One night, Spider-Man faces a giant lizard man in the streets of the city. The nasty reptile is flinging his tongue around at innocent bystanders and stuff! So Spidey fights him, and he runs away, returning to where he came from: Atlas Playhouse, which is currently showing a sold out performance of Animalia! As it turns out, the Agents of Atlas are lurking within Marvel Boy's spaceship nearby, watching their target, the lizardling. Spidey almost stops it, but he swings into the invisible ship, also while they were about to capture it. Unable to get inside the Playhouse so easily, Peter calls up his wife and invites her to see Animalia, which she's been wanting to see for a while. A quick change later, he and MJ have front row (scalped) tickets! Also on the row, are the Agents of Atlas, pretending to be mere theatre-goers, with Human Robot and Gorilla Man disguised by Marvel Boy's psychic illusions. Course, Pete still gets a slight tingle about them. Anyway, the play goes on, the main character in the play is some fellow with a big yellow mask on. He gets metaphysical about the changes in the Atlas Foundation as being "new gods arriving, bringing change", and plans to restore the old ways through magic. With the appearance of multiple giant animals and some audience participation in the chants, it's time for a volunteer to join their cause. Mary Jane is ready to steal the spotlight, when Venus cuts her off. Just when the goddess is about to bond with a giant crab, M-11 activates his eyebeams and melts the creature! The Animalia leader notices them, and has the creatures attack the audience. Pete gets MJ to safety and spirits her away in a cab, before returning to the theatre. He just misses out on Venus using the sound system to sing and calm the crowd into exiting, urging them to believe it all to be special effects. When Spidey returns, he attacks Gorilla Man, thinking him with the animals. He has a scuffle or so with the Agents of Atlas, before getting quelled by Venus. He helps the team out in stopping some of the beasts, but the leader guy teleports his minions away when the tide turns. The Agents beam up to Marvel Boy's saucer, with Spidey webbing-on to Human Robot and joining them aboard. There, they explain who they are, and why they're after the Atlas Playhouse crew, as they're an occult branch of the Atlas Foundation, merging the life forces of audience members with animal totem puppets. When an Atlas symbol used as a nearby psychic battery for these events is brought up, Spidey deduces it to be the statue at Rockefeller Center. It indeed is, they head there, fight the beast-men some more, and Spidey aids M-11 in melting the statue. With the battery broken, the captive audience members are freed from their merging with the totems. Jimmy plans to replace the statue with an exact copy, then thanks Spider-Man. Marvel Boy uses his mental commands to erase everyone else's memories of the whole debacle. Spidey, believing himself to be the 7th Agent, struggles to hold onto his memories. When he gets home, he has succeeded! Pete tells MJ what the Playhouse was up to, and how he teamed with the Agents of Butterfly, featuring an ape named Oregon and a spaceman named Jellybean. He immediately realizes Jellybean replaced key details in his brain. MJ urges him to lay down. Pete figures he'll remember in a few months, and declares next time they'll go see something off broad. Meanwhile, the spaceship heads skyward. 

Flashback: The Animalia leader guy appears in a one panel FB, showing him bonding a woman to an animal totem. 

Continuity notes: Peter quips, "Bite your tongue, as my Aunt used to say". Could be considered a sign she's dead, or it could be nothing. Pete wears his red & blue costume here, with no mention of his identity being publicly known (when the Agents of Atlas say their team is a secret, he asks why they don't wear a mask like him) or any references to registration at all when he encounters the Agents. Oh, and Pete & MJ, who are married for the record, live in an apartment in the city, not Stark Tower. 

The Agents of Atlas appear here after the end of the last issue of their mini, due to their representation of Atlas instead of investigating it. 

Gorilla Man is the only one of the team to know who Spidey is, since he's the only one with contemporary knowledge (though you'd think Venus might also). 


Calendar notes: Full moon. Clear skies in the city. Takes place entirely in one night. 

Page 0: "Now, our feature presentation" page with small bios on Spidey and the Agents of Atlas. 
Pages 1-24: The story. Duh. 
Page 20 panel 2: FB. Animalia leader guy merging a woman with a big panther totem creature. 

----------- 
Story 3: 
A reprint of Mary Jane #1. 

----------- 
Story 4: 
A reprint of the Amazing Spider-Man #178. 

----------- 
Story 5: 
Spider-Man J: "Terror In The Skies" 
Original Story and Art by Yamanaka Akira 
Translation: Yuko Fukami 
English Adaptation: Marc Sumerak 

Non-canon. 
------------------------------------ 


SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
... 
TTA 57 
**SMF2 3 
UTSM 16 
... 
**SMF2 4/2 
... 

**GOMDULLA 
JIM 61 
SMF2 3 

INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUE STORM RICHARDS 
... 
ST 121 
**SMF2 3 
FF 27 
... 

HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM 
... 
ST 121 
**SMF2 3 
FF 27 
... 

THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM 
... 
ST 121 
**SMF2 3 
FF 27 
... 

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS 
... 
ST 121 
**SMF2 3 
FF 27 
... 

JAMESON, J. JONAH 
... 
UTSM 15 
**SMF2 3 
ASM 15 
... 

LEEDS, BETTY BRANT 
... 
UTSM 15 
**SMF2 3 
UTSM 16 
... 

PARKER, MAY REILLY 
... 
ASM 14 
**SMF2 3-BTS 
SENSM '96 
... 

ELECTRO/MAX DILLON 
... 
ASM 9-FB 
{ASM 9} -added brackets! 
DEF2 10 
UTSM 7 
UTSM 11 
DD 2 
ASM@ 1 
**SMF2 3 
FF@ 3 
... 

VENOM 
... 
**SMF2 3/2 
... 

GARGAN, MACDONALD 
... 
**SMF2 3/2 
... 

SCORPION III/CARMILLA BLACK/THASANEE RAPPACCINI 
... 
**SMF2 3/2-FB 
**SMF2 3/2 
... 

KHANATA, DEREK 
... 
**SMF2 3/2 
... 

NAGAYOSHI, NORIKO 
... 
**SMF2 3/2 
... 

SAREVA, AYNA 
... 
**SMF2 3/2 
... 

PUPPET MASTER/PHILLIP MASTERS 
... 
**SMF2 4 
... 

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 
... 
**SMF2 4/2 
... 

WOO, JIMMY 
... 
**SMF2 4/2 
... 

MARVEL BOY III/ROBERT GRAYSON 
... 
**SMF2 4/2 
... 

HUMAN ROBOT/M-11 
... 
**SMF2 4/2 
... 

NAMORA/AQUARIA NAUTICA NEPTUNIA [ATLANTEAN] 
... 
**SMF2 4/2 
... 

GORILLA-MAN/KEN HALE 
... 
**SMF2 4/2 
... 

VENUS/APHRODITE/VICTORIA NUTLEY "VICKI" STARR 
... 
**SMF2 4/2 
...

			*	*	*

Sep 08, 2007 7:18 am 
By Somebody
Director

JLH wrote:
>>>
SPIDER-MAN FAMILY, Vol 2. #3 [August 2007]
-----------
Story 2:
Scorpion in... "Namesake"
Writer: Fred Van Lente
Penciler: Leonard Kirk
Inker: Terry Pallot

[...]

Continuity notes: "This story takes place just before the events depicted in CIVIL WAR: CHANGING SIDES."

Calendar notes: New Venom there mentions on the first page of the tale that "our deal won't close for another week", concerning his Thunderbolts contract, I suppose.
<<<

While I know you took the typo from the issue, it's CHOOSING Sides 

Oh, and the "deal" mentioned is his "life rights" - a movie, book and TV deal, again a reference to CW:CS/1


JLH wrote:
>>>
SPIDER-MAN FAMILY, Vol 2. #4 [October 2007]
-----------
Story 2:
"The Producers"
Written for the Stage by: Jeff Parker
Set Design by: Leonard Kirk
Stage Manager: Kris Justice

[...]

Continuity notes: Gorilla Man is the only one of the team to know who Spidey is, since he's the only one with contemporary knowledge (though you'd think Venus might also).

Page 0: "Now, our feature presentation" page with small bios on Spidey and the Agents of Atlas.
<<<

Venus was in southern Africa for ten years, in some country near Wakanda, having made her way there after meeting up with Gorilla Man in the "mid-80s". She's not the Olympian goddess.

See the notes I left in the August Call for Analysis thread, following the question I asked in the Venus and Namorita thread in MU (and note that the recap page bio on her follows the siren story, unsurprisingly). While the "Namorita's teacher" thing makes it awkward, it looks like all the post-Silver appearances until AoAtlas were the Olympian.


JLH wrote:
>>>
VENOM
...
**SMF2 3/2
...

GARGAN, MACDONALD
...
**SMF2 3/2
...
<<<

Immediately before CW:CS 1/1 in their listing.


JLH wrote:
>>>
SCORPION III/CARMILLA BLACK/THASANEE RAPPACCINI
...
**SMF2 3/2-FB
**SMF2 3/2

NAGAYOSHI, NORIKO
...
**SMF2 3/2
...
<<<

Next stop after DOCSAMSON2 3.


>>>
KHANATA, DEREK
...
**SMF2 3/2
...
<<<

Between DOCSAMSON2 3 and ATLAS 1.


JLH wrote:
>>>
SAREVA, AYNA
...
**SMF2 3/2
...
<<<

After H3 87 (didn't appear in DOCSAMSON2 3).


JLH wrote:
>>>
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
...
**SMF2 4/2
... 

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE
...
**SMF2 4/2
...
<<<

Discussion on this in the ASM 543 topic in MU [in the August 2007 archive]. Provisionally somewhere between the unmasking and Peter turning on Iron Man & co., on the basis that Spider-Man/MJ placement post-1MD is... shaky...

			*	*	*

Sep 11, 2007 8:19 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

JLH wrote: 
>>>
Peter quips, "Bite your tongue, as my Aunt used to say". Could be considered a sign she's dead, or it could be nothing. Pete wears his red & blue costume here, with no mention of his identity being publicly known (when the Agents of Atlas say their team is a secret, he asks why they don't wear a mask like him) or any references to registration at all when he encounters the Agents. Oh, and Pete & MJ, who are married for the record, live in an apartment in the city, not Stark Tower. 
<<<

If Peter is wearing his classic costume, his identity is unknown (except to Gorilla Man for some reason), and he and M.J. are living in an apartment, shouldn't SMF2 4/2 occur before ASM 515 (19-22), the start of the story arc in which Aunt May's home is destroyed and Stark invites the Parkers to live at Stark Tower? I don't know if this squares with SMF2 4/2 occurring after AOA 6, since analysis for the Agents mini hasn't been submitted. 

Sorry to hear of Mittens' passing, JLH.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Sep 11, 2007 11:11 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Nope, no chance of that. Check the link Somebody provided, and you'll see that all of the Agents of ATLAS mini takes place after Civil War 1's Stamford Disaster. 

Basically, we have two options, depending on how One More Day ends. During Civil War or after One More Day. Of course, we won't know for sure either way until November...

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 11, 2007 11:15 pm 
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
his identity is unknown (except to Gorilla Man for some reason),
<<<

I should've phrased that better. Gorilla Man is the only one of the team who knows who Spider-Man is, not his secret identity.

			*	*	*

Sep 12, 2007 5:05 am 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Nope, no chance of that. Check the link Somebody provided, and you'll see that all of the Agents of ATLAS mini takes place after Civil War 1's Stamford Disaster. 

Basically, we have two options, depending on how One More Day ends. During Civil War or after One More Day. Of course, we won't know for sure either way until November...
<<<

Indeed (well, I've been pretty much willing to call Swing Shift, the FCBD issue, as post-1MD since it came out, but a couple more months to be sure).


JLH wrote:
>>>
Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
his identity is unknown (except to Gorilla Man for some reason),
<<<

I should've phrased that better. Gorilla Man is the only one of the team who knows who Spider-Man is, not his secret identity.
<<<

Indeed. 

*Venus just spent ten years in a southern African jungle (+more years getting there, since she apparently took the slow road rather than a plane) 
*M-11's dead silent almost all of the time. He probably DID know who Spidey is, given his various internet & other network linkups, but that doesn't mean he'd explain. 
*Marvel Boy's spent fifty years in Uranus (seriously, inside the planet's core). 
*And Jimmy Woo's been reset to his 1959 self in both mind and body. 

It's just that the only one who's been around, remembers it and would say if he knew is... Gorilla Man.

			*	*	*

Sep 12, 2007 6:09 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

JLH, where does the break between days occur in SMF2 3?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Sep 14, 2007 4:32 am 
By JLH

Between pages 5 and 6.

			*	*	*

Sep 14, 2007 6:11 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, JLH. Should've asked this before, but how many pages are there in this story?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Sep 15, 2007 12:57 am 
By JLH

Aside from a "recap/setup" page (stylized after doodling of Peter's concerning the FF), it's 22 pages. Then they have a one page pin-up which seems to be an unused cover.

			*	*	*

Sep 15, 2007 12:51 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Merci, JLH.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 37

Subject: Blaze of Glory #1-4

Sep 14, 2007 8:10 am 
By JLH

How the West was lost! Up next, Apache Skies. 

------------------------------------ 
BLAZE OF GLORY #1 [February 2000] 
The Last Ride of the Western Heroes, Book One 
by John Ostrander & Leonardo Manco 

Cast: 
JONES, RENO (also in FB) 
KID CASSIDY/RICHARD CASSIDY (also in FB) 
FOURNIER, MARCEL
FLAMING STAR
CODY, WILLIAM "BUFFALO BILL"
RAWHIDE KID/JOHNNY BART
KID COLT/BLAINE COLT
GUNHAWK/"LEE BARNETT"
TARANTULA/CLAY RILEY (BTS, revealed in issue 3) 

Other characters: 
Jones, Cass (Reno's son) 
Jones, Mary (Reno's wife) 
Nightriders (several hooded men) 
Heston, Ezekiel (townsfolk) 


Summary: "There is the West of fact. There is the West of legend. This story falls somewhere in between." We get a brief rundown on important events of the West of fact, Custer's last stand, Chief Joseph fighting no more forever, Exodusters, the importance of Anaconda, and the completion of the Northing Pacific Railroad. Then, a who's who concerning the West of legend: Ghost Rider, Gunhawk, Wyatt Earp, Reno Jones, Buffalo Bill, Wild Bill Hickock, Caleb Hammer, Billy the Kid, Outlaw Kid, Kid Colt, Rawhide Kid, Two Gun Kid, and Red Wolf. The story of some of them, the men behind those legends, and the time when their paths crossed for the last time. In the Summer of 1885, the town of Wonderment, Montana, made of ex-slaves and poor whites. Reno Jones, former legendary half of the duo called Gunhawks, scolds his son for believing too much in dime novels. That night, a group of a half dozen or so men in white masks and capes on horseback, called the Nightriders, storm Wonderment, as they've done to so many other towns. Reno fights back, with the head man especially furious to see him. They return, every night for several days, hitting the town and running, burning down buildings, lynching people, but never saying why. Fear grips the town, with many of the people wanting to flee. But Reno's not about to give up so easily. He's gonna ride out and get in touch with a gunfighter he knows, who knows others. French-Canadian trapper Marcel Fournier offers to go with him, as he knows a man, as well. Flaming Star, of the nearby Indians, plans to spread word among his people, since Wonderment has helped them out in the past. A few days later, Reno arrives at Buffalo Bill's Show, which is currently featuring the famous Rawhide Kid in a fantastic stunt routine. After finishing one last show, intending to ride out with his old pal Reno, Rawhide runs into Kid Colt, also an old acquaintance, currently keeping a low profile as he's a wanted man. Rawhide lets Buffalo Bill know he's got to leave, and refuses to let Kid Colt come along, due to his temper, but the hothead follows anyway, as Johnny Bart expected. Right after Rawhide, Reno, and Colt depart, the man called Gunhawk approaches Buffalo Bill, looking for Kid Colt. He's planning to collect the bounty on the blonde boy, and learns from the showman just where he went... 


Flashback: Panel 1) As children, Kid Cassidy and Reno Jones playing together in a yard as Reno's mother, a Mammy, does laundry. 

Panel 2) The pair as young teens. No longer pals, Reno is waiting on Cassidy as he sits with a girl in his family's mansion. 

Panel 3) Cassidy returning home after the War, his father dead and not much left for him but the house. 

Panel 4) Kid Cassidy and Reno Jones riding out together in the desert, memories of being boys resurfacing and things are all right for a while. 

Panel 5) The end of their friendship. Kid Cassidy, having grown meaner and more bitter, drew on Reno one night in a saloon while playing cards. Reno shot him down, and left him dying. 

Continuity notes: According to Reno, the Gunhawks dime novels were mostly made up. The FB tells the retcon reality of how Reno Jones and Kid Cassidy came together, but doesn't particularly retcon out any specific tales wholesale. He just wasn't a "Happy Slave who didn't even know he was slave". 

Cass Jones mentions Jeb Kent as one of the other western legends. Jeb was, of course, the main character in John Ostrander's DC maxi-series, "The Kents". 

Reno and Kid Colt don't know one another previously, while Colt and Rawhide do, as do Rawhide and Reno. 


Goofs: Not so much a mistake as just a rather large change to character, Marcel Fournier has gone from just a black dude to a more traditional French-Canadian, with curly hair and heavily pronounced accent. 


------------------------------------ 
BLAZE OF GLORY #2 [February 2000] 
The Last Ride of the Western Heroes, Book Two 
by John Ostrander & Leonardo Manco 

Cast: 
TWO-GUN KID/MATTHEW J. LIEBOWICZ/"MATT HAWK"/"CLAY HARDER"
FOURNIER, MARCEL
FLAMING STAR
GHOST WIND RIDER
RED WOLF II/JOHNNY WAKELY
TARANTULA/CLAY RILEY
JONES, RENO
RAWHIDE KID/JOHNNY BART
KID COLT/BLAINE COLT
OUTLAW KID/LANCE TEMPLE
HAMMER, CALEB 

Other characters: 
Nightriders 


Summary: Marcel Fournier goes to Anaconda, Montana, and meets with his old buddy, Two-Gun Kid, now going by the name of Clay Harder, lawyer. He tries to convince him to come out of self-imposed retirement to help out, and informs him of what happened to their fellow Sunset Riders. But the former Matt Hawk refuses, wanting to remain being an attorney. In fact, he tries to use his lawyery skills to get to the bottom of the situation, having a meeting with Clay Riley, of Riley Mining and Manifacture Company. Matt believes him to be the mastermind behind the Nightrider raids, as he was once the villain called the Tarantula. It turns out, he is, and there's nothing legally he can do about it. Riley's got too much money and power. Matt realizes Two-Gun Kid died too soon, and sets out to raise the dead. 

Elsewhere, Flaming Star and his Granddaughter, Ghost Wind Rider, are put upon by some bandits, only to be saved by the famed hero Red Wolf. The pair then request he aid the town of Wonderment, which he agrees to do in his own way. Soon, at Fort Thunder, Marcel, Reno Jones, Kid Colt, and Rawhide Kid regroup. Rawhide sent a telegram to Lance Temple, who soon arrives following this supposed lead on the location of the Outlaw Kid (unaware that he himself is who he's after). Caleb Hammer, a Pinkerton Agent accompanied by two others, appears, attempting to arrest Kid Colt. The group draws, and Caleb chooses to stand down for the moment, only to have Kid Colt snap and shoot all three agents! Our heroes are forced to saddle up and get out of town thanks to Colt's hothead. Once safely away, they camp for the night, and Colt reveals the price on his head went up after he shot a sheriff. Two-Gun Kid drops in on the men, revealing to Marcel that he changed his mind, and telling the team about Clay Riley's master plan behind the attacks. He also explains that Colt killed two of the agents, while Caleb Hammer survived. A few days later, the crew reaches a supposed "back door" trapper Marcel has exposed to them, a small natural bridge over a waterfall. Lance is too afraid to go over, and is left behind. Reno goes back across to help him, when they're ambushed by Nightriders! Reno plummets over the side, into the waters. With the team boxed in and surrounded by gunfire, Lance suffers a psychotic break and by lifting his bandanna over his face, the Outlaw Kid rides once more! 


Continuity notes: Two-Gun's current alias is, of course, a reference to the "fictional" first Two-Gun Kid. He's even dyed his hair to match. 

The fates of the other two Sunset Riders are elaborated in dialogue: Running Fish is with Geronimo and the other Apaches, while Hijiro was last heard from in San Francisco, currently going through some very bad race riots against orientals. 

As I've said before, this story retcon-rollbacks Sunset Rider's dates. Rawhide says he heard Two-Gun died "a year or so back", and Matt's new law office seems to be well enough established by now. 

Rawhide Kid and Kid Colt are aware of Lance being Outlaw Kid, though Lance doesn't seem to know any of them (at least, not outside his Outlaw Kid personality). Rawhide shows familiarity to Two-Gun Kid. 


Goofs: Running Fish is called "Walking Fish" here by mistake. Or he changed his name for some reason. 

Another retcon of year's, in 1885, Caleb Hammer was not yet a Pinkerton Agent, instead living with his brother, still grieving over the loss of his wife. 


------------------------------------ 
BLAZE OF GLORY #3 [March 2000] 
The Last Ride of the Western Heroes, Book Three 
by John Ostrander & Leonardo Manco 

Cast: 
RED WOLF II/JOHNNY WAKELY
OUTLAW KID/LANCE TEMPLE
KID COLT/BLAINE COLT (also in FB) 
RAWHIDE KID/JOHNNY BART
TWO-GUN KID/MATTHEW J. LIEBOWICZ/"MATT HAWK"/"CLAY HARDER"
FOURNIER, MARCEL
KID CASSIDY/RICHARD CASSIDY
HAMMER, CALEB
GUNHAWK II/"LEE BARNETT"
JONES, RENO (becomes the new GHOST RIDER aka NIGHT RIDER III) 

Other characters: 
Nightriders (some die) 
Jones, Cass 
Jones, Mary 
Heston, Ezekiel 


Summary: So, Outlaw Kid does some damage to the small band of Nightriders, but when his face is exposed, he switches back to the Lance Temple personality. The team regroup with him, and it's Red Wolf, lurking in the shadows, who finishes the enemies off. After the group leave, Red Wolf heads down after Reno. Two-Gun Kid, Kid Colt, Rawhide Kid, Outlaw Kid (restored via a bandanna lift by Two-Gun), ride into Wonderment, just as the main group of Nightriders are doing their nightly raids. They injure a few, kill some, but most retreat. Afterwards, Marcel informs Mary Jones of Reno's presumed death, while Lance laments just missing the Outlaw Kid. Rawhide is suspicious of Marcel. Later, the main Nightrider kills the survivor of the canyon ambush, for apparently killing Reno when he had called dibs on the task. The boss then sends a guy off to get Riley to hire some more men. Caleb Hammer, having resumed his search for Kid Colt, runs into the Nightriders, and given an option between death and coming with them, he chooses the latter. Back in Wonderment, as the gunfighters prepare to train the townsfolk in how to handle weapons dropped by the raiders, Cass Jones, son of the seemingly deceased Reno, requests he be given a gun as well. Kid Colt has a heart to heart with the boy, since his own loss of his father led him to become who he is today. He urges the boy not walk down this same doomed path of vengeance. In the mountain outskirts, the Nightriders get another addition, when Gunhawk arrives, also heading to Wonderment to take down Kid Colt. The raiders give he and Caleb each a gun, and have them duel to settle on who gets to go with them. But before they can draw, the eeriely glowing spectre known as the Ghost Rider appears, killing one of the Nightriders, and warning the rest to stay away from Wonderment. Unfortunately, the appearance of He-Who-Rides-The-Night-Winds works against the town, as we're reminded that Riley has an old score to settle with Ghost Rider, and will put everything he has behind destroying Wonderment for certain now! Oh, and Caleb & Gunhawk team up enough to make a break for the town. 


Flashback: One giant page/panel shot of Kid Colt, years ago, killing the three men who killed his father. This is a previously seen event, but with a sort of gritty reality slant. In narrative, Kid Colt reveals the dime novels claimed incorrectly that the men he knew for certain killed his father were armed when he shot them down. But in actuality, he merely suspected they killed him since they had in fact cheated him out of his land, and they were unarmed at the time, his temper getting the better of him once more. 

Continuity notes: Rawhide Kid knows Red Wolf. 

Thanks to a bit of narrative, we learn that Lance's father died when he found out he was the Outlaw Kid, which led to the whole personality schism. 


------------------------------------ 
BLAZE OF GLORY #4 [March 2000] 
The Last Ride of the Western Heroes, Book Four 
by John Ostrander & Leonardo Manco 

Cast: 
HAMMER, CALEB
GUNHAWK II/"LEE BARNETT" (dies) 
TWO-GUN KID/MATTHEW J. LIEBOWICZ/"MATT HAWK"/"CLAY HARDER" (dies) 
OUTLAW KID/LANCE TEMPLE (dies) 
KID COLT/BLAINE COLT (dies) 
RAWHIDE KID/JOHNNY BART 
TARANTULA/CLAY RILEY (dies) 
FOURNIER, MARCEL (dies) 
KID CASSIDY/RICHARD CASSIDY (dies) 
RED WOLF II/JOHNNY WAKELY
FLAMING STAR
GHOST WIND RIDER
JONES, RENO (as the GHOST RIDER aka NIGHT RIDER III) 

Other characters: 
Nightriders (all die) 
Jones, Cass 
Jones, Mary 
Heston, Ezekiel 


Summary: As Caleb and Gunhawk head into Wonderment, the Pinkerton Agent makes it clear that getting Kid Colt is personal, considering what he'd done to his two buddies when they'd lowered their guns. Once they get into town, they make their intentions clear to the gunfighters, they'll put off bringing Kid Colt to justice until the Nightriders are dealt with. Rawhide Kid, of course, has to keep Colt's temper at bay, but is happy to learn of Ghost Rider's involvement. Over in Anaconda, Clay Riley personally sets out to join his raiders now that he's learned of Ghost Rider's involvement! Back in Wonderment, Lance Temple spots Cass Jones trying to learn on his own how to shoot. He tries to convince the boy his father wouldn't want him messing with guns, this whole paternal talk leading to a breakthrough, at least temporarily, as Lance admits to himself he knows he himself is to blame for his own father's death. Meanwhile, Rawhide Kid confirms his suspicions about Marcel Fournier, that he led them into a trap last issue. The French-Canadian trapper takes Cass hostage, and tries to get out of town, only to have his old pal, Two-Gun Kid shoot him down. Outside of town, the head Nightrider prepares to a midnight raid, with Riley coming in around then with 100 men. Elsewhere, Rawhide Kid meets with Flaming Star and his people, informing them of the last stand. It's the chance to kill some white men without cavalry backlash that entices them the most. And at sunset, Two-Gun waxes philosophical about the end of their era, his knowledge of the future giving him the desire to go out in a blaze of glory before the coming of the new breed of heroes and villains. Lance raises his bandanna, begging for his father's forgiveness as he unleashes Outlaw Kid on the world again. 

Clay Riley arrives, and the Nightriders storm Wonderment. Outlaw Kid is the first of heroes to fall, smashing a cart full of fire at the sea of invaders, escaping that, only to be shot down when his bandanna drops. Rawhide gets winged, but remains on his horse. He vows to see Two-Gun Kid when the fight is over, just before Matt Hawk launches himself into the street, both guns blazing. Nearby, Caleb and Gunhawk make a last stand, side by side with the man they hunt, Kid Colt, inside a storefront. Suddenly, Ghost Rider bursts onto the scene, killing Clay Riley at last. But the main Nightrider clips the white-clad figure, and prepares to finish him. Ghost Rider pulls back his mask, and reveals himself to be Reno Jones! Not only that, but the head Nightrider, as Reno already suspects, is his old partner, Kid Cassidy! Cassidy is about to end his old friend, when Lance Temple, with his dying breath, tries to do his father proud by giving up the gun and instead lighting some dynamite, engulfing himself and numerous Nightriders! Kid Cassidy is knocked off guard, and Red Wolf charges into town with his fellow Indians. With the battle pretty much over, Kid Colt breaths a sigh of relief... and gets shot in the back by Gunhawk. Caleb Hammer, a man of greater character and morals, is furious over the cowardly way his target was killed. Thus, Caleb kills the bounty hunter the moment he draws on him. Soon, Reno reunites with his wife and son. He reveals that Red Wolf fished him out of the river, and Flaming Star, keeper of the Ghost Rider costume, gave it to him. Reno decides to let the identity rest in peace, so that he can live in peace. Rawhide Kid reunites with Two-Gun Kid, finding him dead in the street, with death finally having caught up with him at last. He respectfully mourns his old friend. Red Wolf finds romance with Ghost Wind Rider. Soon, Reno offers Rawhide and Caleb a place in town, but they decline. Side by side, the pair of gunfighters ride out of Wonderment. Caleb asks Johnny Bart if the fight was worth it, considering he lost so many of his friends and half the town died. Rawhide Kid admits that men dying is just the fact of fate. It's only the legends that are forever. And with the final shot, we see the graves of Outlaw Kid, Two-Gun Kid, and Kid Colt, in the multicolor twilight haze. 



Continuity notes: As you can determine, this is intended to be the final chronological appearances of many of the Marvel Western heroes. Only Rawhide Kid, Caleb Hammer, Red Wolf, and Reno Jones survive. 

Rawhide Kid seems to know one of the prior Ghost Riders, or at least he's knowledgable of the legend of him. 

Goofs: Ghost Rider's horse is brown, instead of the glowing white one he's known for (and had last issue). 


------------------------------------ 

There's loads of appearances by these fellers that need'a addin'. Perhaps one day, someone will add them... 


**CODY, WILLIAM "BUFFALO BILL" 
BOG 1 

FLAMING STAR 
GR 1-FB 
GR 1 
**GR2 50 
GR 6 
**BOG 1 
**BOG 2 
**BOG 4 

**FOURNIER, MARCEL 
[TGK:SR 1, 2] 
BOG 1 
BOG 2 
BOG 3 
BOG 4 

**GHOST WIND RIDER 
BOG 2 
BOG 4 

**GUNHAWK II/"LEE BARNETT" 
[Western Gunfighters v2 #1, 5-7] 
BOG 1 
BOG 3 
BOG 4 

**HAMMER, CALEB 
M/PRM 54-FB 
BOG 2 
BOG 3 
BOG 4 
{M/PRM 54} 
XFOR 37-FB 

**JONES, RENO 
BOG 1-FB 
[Gunhawks 1-7] 
BOG 1 
BOG 2 
BOG 3 
BOG 4 

**KID CASSIDY/RICHARD CASSIDY 
BOG 1-FB 
[Gunhawks 1-6] 
BOG 1 
BOG 2 
BOG 3 
BOG 4 

KID COLT/BLAINE COLT 
... 
BP3 47 
**BOG 1 
**BOG 2 
**BOG 3 
**BOG 4 

**NIGHT RIDER III 
(See Jones, Reno) 

Note, current NIGHT RIDER III/HAMILTON SLADE, should be bumped up to NIGHT RIDER IV! And presumably, this should be echoed out to the PHANTOM RIDER and GHOST RIDER links. 

**OUTLAW KID/LANCE TEMPLE 
[Outlaw Kid v.2 10] 
[Outlaw Kid v.1 1-19] 
[Wild Western #43, Rawhide Kid #46, 148, 150, Western Gunfighters #8-9, Wyatt Earp #24] 
[Outlaw Kid v.2 1-30] 
BOG 2 
BOG 3 
BOG 4 

RAWHIDE KID/JOHNNY BART 
... 
[Rawhide Kid vol 3 1-5] 
**BOG 1 
**BOG 2 
**BOG 3 
**BOG 4 
[Apache Skies 1-4] 
[Rawhide Kid vol 2 1-4] 

RED WOLF II/JOHNNY WAKELY 
... 
RW 7-FB 
**BOG 2 
**BOG 3 
**BOG 4 

TARANTULA/CLAY RILEY 
(added real name) 
... 
GR 5 
**BOG 1-BTS 
**BOG 2 
**BOG 4 

TWO-GUN KID/MATTHEW J. LIEBOWICZ/"MATT HAWK"/"CLAY HARDER" 
... 
[TGK:SR 1, 2] 
**BOG 2 
**BOG 3 
**BOG 4

			*	*	*

Sep 16, 2007 9:41 am 
By dimadick

"Note, current NIGHT RIDER III/HAMILTON SLADE, should be bumped up to NIGHT RIDER IV! And presumably, this should be echoed out to the PHANTOM RIDER and GHOST RIDER links." 

Technically there was also Jaime Jacobs, Carter Slade's sidekick. In "Western Gunfighters" vol. 2 #7 (October, 1971), Jaime assumes the Ghost Rider identity in succession to his just buried mentor. He gets promptly killed in action and his death convinces Lincoln Slade to assume the mantle.

			*	*	*

Thread 38

Subject: September call for analyses

Sep 01, 2007 8:07 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

It's that time again. I'm still catching up with recently submitted analyses, but don't let that stop you from volunteering and posting! Many thanks to all who contribute. 

Completed stories (as of 8/31/07) 
Agents of Atlas #1-6 (Eric) 
Books of Doom #1-6 (Eric) 
Daredevil v2 #95-99 (Kevin) 
Daughters of the Dragon #1-6 
Eternals v3 #1-7 (Eric) 
Ghost Rider: Trail of Tears #1-6 (JLH) 
Immortal Iron Fist #7 (Don) 
Mystic Arcana: Black Knight (JLH) 
Mystic Arcana: Scarlet Witch (JLH) 
Underworld #1-5 (Aaron) 
Wisdom #1-6 (Paul O.) 
X-23: Target X #1-6 (Paul O.) 

Future stuff 
Annihilation: Conquest #1-6 (JLH) 
Annihilation: Conquest  Quasar #1-4 (JLH) 
Annihilation: Conquest  Star-Lord #1-4 (Somebody) 
Annihilation: Conquest  Wraith #1-4 (JLH) 
Daredevil v2 #101-? 
Daredevil Annual v2 #1 
Daredevil: Battlin Jack Murdock #1-4 
Foolkiller v2 #1-5 
Franklin Richards: Fall Football Fiasco 
Franklin Richards: Monster Mash 
Ghost Rider v5 #14-19 (JLH) 
Ghost Rider Annual v2 #1 (JLH) 
House of M: Avengers #1-5 
Howard the Duck v? #1-4 (JLH) 
Immortal Iron Fist #8-? (Don) 
Immortal Iron Fist Annual #1 (Don) 
Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin #1-6 
Moon Knight Annual #1 
Mystic Arcanna: Sister Grimm (JD) 
Nova v4 #4-7 (Somebody) 
Nova v4 #8-? (Somebody) 
Omega the Unknown v2 #1-10 
Punisher v7 #51-54 (Col_Fury) 
Punisher Max Annual #1 (Col_Fury) 
Runaways v2 #25-30 (JD) 
Silver Surfer: In Thy Name #1-4 
Spider-Man Family #5 (JLH) 
Spider-Man/Red Sonja #1-4 
Wolverine v3 #57-? (Col_Fury) 
Wolverine Annual: Deathsong (Col_Fury) 
Wolverine: Origins #17-20 (Col_Fury) 
Zombie: Simon Garth #1-4

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:38 pm, edited 6 times in total. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Sep 01, 2007 8:35 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Mystic Arcanna: Sister Grimm (JD)
<<<

Typo: Should be "Arcana", one "n".



Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Terror, Inc. v2 #1-5
<<<

Non-canon. It's what I would call a "loose adaptation" (for MAX) of the original Terror, Inc - the broad thrust of the history is about the same, but almost all the details are changed in some significant way.



Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Zombie: Simon Garth #1-4
<<<

Sequel to the MAX Zombie series - which, as I recall, was non-canon.

			*	*	*

Sep 01, 2007 10:41 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Blade v3 #11-12 (JLH) has been SUBMITTED 

Ghost Rider: Trail of Tears #1-6 (JLH) & Spider-Man Family #4 (JLH) should both be moved to Completed Stories. 

Wolverine v3 #56 (Col_Fury) has been SUBMITTED

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 02, 2007 12:52 am 
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Annihilation: Conquest #1-6
<<<

Since Somebody didn't jump on it right away, might as well put me down for it.


>>>
Ghost Rider Annual v2 #1
<<<

Ditto.


>>>
Ghost Rider: Trail of Tears #1-6 (JLH)
<<<

This entirely takes place in the 1800s, so it needn't be in the calendar call. I'll still be doing an analysis for it, but it won't help you any.

			*	*	*

Sep 02, 2007 1:48 am 
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Daredevil v2 #95-99
<<<

Completed.

I'm working on some of my backlog of analyses (yes, that means Sentinel v2), so I may do some surprise analyses while I'm at it...

[edit]


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Sentinel v2 #1-5 (JD)
<<<

Finally done !

			*	*	*

Sep 04, 2007 5:52 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I updated the call. Thanks, guys!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Sep 04, 2007 8:12 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

>>>
Daredevil v2 #95-99 
<<<

Ah, what the hell. I'll try and get this done sometime here before the end of the month. Sure, there's a wedding to plan for, but all work and no play... 

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Sep 05, 2007 1:48 am 
By JLH

Congratulations on your job as a wedding planner!

			*	*	*

Sep 16, 2007 3:21 pm 
By JD

Ok, White Tiger's done. 

Left on my plate : a lone one-shot, and a Runaways arc that won't finish till next decade. 
What the heck, I'll try doing Daughters of the Dragon in the next few weeks. I can't be much more difficult than WT !

			*	*	*

Sep 16, 2007 3:38 pm 
By Somebody
Director

What, you didn't see the auction crowd scene?

			*	*	*

Thread 39

Subject: Nova: the Human Rocket 1-7

Sep 14, 2007 2:57 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Nova v3 #1 
Published: May, 1999 

Appearances: 
Nova(Rich Rider), Rhino, She-Hulk(Jen Walters), Nebula, Firelord-FB, Queen Adora-FB, Ginger Jaye-Firestone, Darren Firestone, Bernie Dillon, Dr. Octopus, Spider-Man, Roger Caps Cooper, Jennifer Smith, Speedball, Night Thrasher, Namorita, Grinder, 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg9 
The Rhino is on a rampage so Nova tries to subdue him, but Rhino knocks him into orbit. When he returns She-Hulk has already taken care of the Rhino. Meanwhile, Nebula plots against Nova. 
Pg10-FB: just before Avengers 260 
Queen Amora sends the Nova force back to Richard Rider and collapses. Firelord swings by and finds her. 
Pg11-pg17 
Rich goes to work at Marvel Burger where Ginger pops in. He takes her home, but runs into Dr. Octopus on the way. He goes to take care of him but Spider-Man beats him to it. He then takes Ginger home where Darren spies on them. Rich goes back to work and later goes to school. 
Pg18-pg38: after midnight 
Nova attends a New Warriors meeting with Night Thrasher & Speedball where they more or less break up. Namorita shows up, her blue skin is cracking and gross. Nova flies off, disgusted. Shortly afterwards, he hears of a break in and encounters the Grinder. After defeating him, Nebula and a bunch of aliens attack him. He defeats them, but his powers are erratic and he fails to stop Nebula from running off. When he gets home Ginger calls him for help; her husband is attacking her in jealousy. He shows up and stop s Darren, but his erratic powers cause him to use too much force. They takes Darren to the hospital and the doctor tells them that hes paralyzed and in a coma. 

References: 
There are a few recap FlashBacks to Novas origin and early stories. As far as I can tell, theres no new information. Pg10-FB, however, is noted as new information and a placement is given to us in an editors box. 

Spider-Man, She-Hulk, Dr. Octopus, & Rhino dont give us any placement clues, they could go pretty much anywhere in the then current day Marvel Universe. 

Nova v3 #2 
Published: June, 1999 

Appearances: 
Nova(Rich Rider), Namorita, Kid Quarry, Roger Caps Cooper, Bernie Dillon, Jennifer Smith, Randy Reed, Ginger Jaye-Firestone, Darren Firestone, Diamondhead, Captain America, 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5 
Namorita takes a shower and her blue skin sloughs off. Meanwhile, Nova tries to stop Kid Quarry from robbing a liquor store but his erratic powers dont let him. 
Pg6-pg13: next day 
Rich is at work when Jennifer and Randy walk in. Later, Nova visits Ginger & Darren at the hospital, where Diamondhead has been hired to kill an abortionist. After a quick fight, Diamondhead reminds Nova of something 
Pg14-pg15-FB: Rom Spaceknight 24 
Diamondhead is melting a bunch of Skrulls and Nova corpsmen on Epyrus-7. Nova doesnt like it, so he puts everyone out of their misery with a giant gravimetric pulse. 
Pg16-pg22 
Diamondhead tells Nova that the Xandarians removed those memories from Nova, then Captain America happens by. Nova borrows his energy shield and shatters Diamondhead. Later, Namorita stops by Richs place and sleeps with Bernie to teach Rich a lesson. 

References: 
Captain America has his energy shield here, which should be the case given when this was published. 

Shortly after last issue. 

pg14-pg15-FB is either repeated information from Rom 24, or its a new scene. I dont have Rom 24, but Ill suggest a placement for it anyway. If its new, its either between pages of Rom 24, or after it in any case, its definitely before NW@ 1/7 (2:4)-FB, where Rich returns to Earth.(which I do own) 

Nova v3 #3 
Published: July, 1999 

Appearances: 
Nova(Rich Rider), Namorita, Speedball, Rage, Bernie Dillon, Roger Caps Cooper, Sphinx, Jennifer Smith, Randy Reed, Ginger Jaye-Firestone, Quintronic Man, Thor, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Human Torch II, Thing, Condor, H.E.R.B.I.E., Reanimator, Mary Brock 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22 
Nova, Namorita, Speedball, & Rage arrest a Skrull impersonating the Savage Dragon, then Namorita flirts with Speedball to piss of Nova. Rich goes to work, and elsewhere the Sphinx is repowered. Later, Rich goes to baseball tryouts, then he visits Ginger. Later, Nova battles a bunch of robots that look like the Red Skull, the Hulk, & Iron Man, then he fights the Quintronic Man, which is driven by five Nick Fury LMDs. A bystander is injured in the fight, and Thor and the Fantastic Four show up after the fight is over. H.E.R.B.I.E. spies on them, which is controlled by someone.(we see his hands) As they leave, the Condor spies from afar. 

References: 
As revealed in Wolverine 149, the pair of hands we see are the Reanimators. 

All in one day, very shortly after last issue. 

The bystander thats injured here is later revealed to be Mary Brock, Eddie Brocks sister. 

The Fantastic Four are wearing black on blue suits here, where next issue theyre wearing white on blue suits that match the uniforms seen then-currently in the FF. 

Nova v3 #4 
Published: August, 1999 

Appearances: 
Nova(Rich Rider), Roger Caps Cooper, Jennifer Smith, Quicksand, Sphinx, Bernie Dillon, Condor, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Human Torch II, Thing, H.E.R.B.I.E., Ginger Jaye-Firestone, Red Raven, 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22 
Rich is playing in a ball game when a radio says the sandman is on the loose. He goes to take care of him, but it turns out that its really Quicksand. After a fight he accidentally turns her into glass. Elsewhere, the Sphinx gains power. Later, Rich goes to work and decides to contact Mr. Fantastic to check out his powers, so he does while the Condor spies on him. At the checkup the Condor attacks and Nova & the FF defeat him. H.E.R.B.I.E. puts out a fire, Novas powers are reduced but not solved, and the Condor is taken away by S.H.I.E.L.D. agents. Wiped out, on his way home Nova crashes on Gingers front lawn. Elsewhere, Red Raven plans to free the Condor. 

References: 
Its baseball season, all in one day. 

As mentioned above, the FF are in their then-current white on blue uniforms with the off-center 4 on the chests. 

Nova v3 #5 
Published: September, 1999 

Appearances: 
Nova(Rich Rider), Ginger Jaye-Firestone, Red Raven, Bernie Dillon, Roger Caps Cooper, Robbie Rider, H.E.R.B.I.E., Sphinx, Speedball, Spider-Man, Jennifer Smith, Badd Axe, Fire-Arms, Vampiro, Gloria Rider, Charles Rider, Reanimator-BTS 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: day after last issue 
Nova wakes up at Gingers house. Meanwhile, Red Raven gets a bunch of his avian folks together to attack the land dwellers. Elsewhere, Bernie & Caps pick up Rich and they visit Robbie, Richs brother, where H.E.R.B.I.E. is spying on them. Meanwhile, the Sphinx gains power. Later, Speedball asks Nova if he wants to reform the New Warriors before a baseball game. Elsewhere, Spider-Man happens across a fire and fights Badd Axe, Fire-Arms, & Vampiro. Nova, hearing about the fire, shows up and helps, together they defeat the villains. As it turns out, the fire is at Novas parents place, but Robbie has bought their old house. 

References: 
Spider-Man mentions that hes freaked out that Novas costume appears to be alive, and tells him about Venom. Nova then makes fun of Spider-Man that one of his deadliest villains is his old underwear. 

Speedball is recruiting for the New Warriors, and hey!, next month the first issue of the new volume of New Warriors comes out. Now theres a placement clue 

Appears to be all in one day. 

Nova v3 #6 
Published: October, 1999 

Appearances: 
Nova(Rich Rider), Sphinx, Bernie Dillon, Roger Caps Cooper, Jennifer Smith, Venom(Eddie Brock), Mary Brock-BTS 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4 
The Sphinx gets more power. Elsewhere, Rich, Bernie, & Caps leave the theatre after watching Citizen Kane and Nova changes into his New Warriors Nova outfit. 
Pg5-pg22: next day 
Rich wakes up and goes to a baseball game. The Sphinx attacks and he defeats him in his regular Nova outfit. Elsewhere, Venom sees on television that his sister is still in the hospital, as a result of the Quintronic Mans attack, and decides that Nova is responsible. 

References: 
Eddies sister is noted as being in the hospital, giving her a BTS. 

Its revealed here that Nova is changing his suits appearance depending on what hes doing, placing this issue after the New Warriors have reformed. Also, since Speedball was recruiting last issue, last issue would go before New Warriors v2 #1, and most likely after #0. 

Nova v3 #7(or #50!) 
Published: November, 1999 

Appearances: 
Nova(Rich Rider), Red Raven, Bi-Beast, Condor, Bernie Dillon, Roger Caps Cooper, Kangaroo(Brian Hibbs/Billy Bob Jenks)-BTS, Jennifer Smith, Ginger Jaye-Firestone, Namorita, Speedball, Aegis, Turbo(Michiko Musashi), Bolt(Chris Bradley), Erik Larsen, Joe Bennett, Ruben Diaz, Bobbie Chase, Bob Harras, Venom(Eddie Brock), Reanimator 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22 
Red Raven, his bird people, & Bi-Beast attack and Nova talks him out of it, saying that violence isnt always the answer. Red Raven says hell rethink his actions and thanks Nova, then leaves. Nova goes home and hears that the Kangaroo has been kicked out of baseball, his powers giving him an unfair advantage, so he quits playing for the college team. That night Rich goes on a date with Jennifer, but they have nothing in common. He then visits with Ginger, whos sold her house and finalized her divorce with Darren. Later, Nova attends a meeting with the New Warriors and hears that Marvel wants to do a Nova comic book. He meets with the creative team and while theyre out to eat, Venom attacks. After a fight Nova picks him up and drops him off on an island, then returns to the Marvel offices where they inform him that his series wouldnt last longer than seven issues, and theyve decided not to do it. Elsewhere, the Reanimator plots against Nova. 

References: 
To be continued in Wolverine eventually! The Reanimator does show up again in Wolverine in issue 149, along with Nova, which wraps up that plot. In it, its revealed that the Reanimator was controlling the Quintronic Man in Nova 3, and therefore when H.E.R.B.I.E. is spying on Nova, its Reanimator spying on him through H.E.R.B.I.E., like at the end of issue 3. 

Novas erratic powers arent wrapped up here, but somewhere else when he eventually reports to the Nova Headquarters and they tell him he hasnt been checking in for his tune ups. Also, they inform him that messing with his suits appearance is a no-no. 

Some placement suggestions: 

NOVA/RICHARD RIDER 
 
ROM 24 
*NO3 2-FB 
NW@ 1/7 (2:4)-FB 
 
TB 25 
*NO3 1
*NO3 2
*NO3 3
*NO3 4 
NW2 0 
*NO3 5 
NW2 1 
*NO3 6 
NW2 2 
*NO3 7 
GENX 59 
NW2 3 
 

New Warriors: 

SPEEDBALL/ROBBIE BALDWIN 
 
A3 13 
*NO3 1
*NO3 3 
NW2 0 
*NO3 5 
NW2 1 
NW2 2 
*NO3 7 
GENX 59 
NW2 3 
 

NIGHT THRASHER/DWAYNE TAYLOR 
 
TB 25 
*NO3 1 
NW2 8-FB 
NW2 1 
 

NAMORITA/NITA PRENTISS [ATLANTEAN] 
 
M/TU2 11 
*NO3 1
*NO3 2
*NO3 3 
NW2 0 
FF3 23 
NW2 1 
NW2 2 
*NO3 7 
NW2 3 
 

RAGE/ELVIN DARYL HALLIDAY 
 
A3 13 
*NO3 3 
NW2 0 
 

AEGIS/TREY ROLLINS 
 
NW2 2 
*NO3 7 
NW2 3 
 

TURBO II (A)/MICHIKO MUSASHI 
 
NW2 2 
*NO3 7 
GENX 59 
NW2 3 
 

BOLT II/CHRIS BRADLEY/"BRIAN JOHNSON" 
 
NW2 2 
*NO3 7 
GENX 59 
NW2 3 
 

Novas supporting cast: 

JAYE-FIRESTONE, GINGER 
 
NO2 1 
*NO3 1
*NO3 2
*NO3 3
*NO3 4
*NO3 5
*NO3 7 
NW2 9-FB 
 

DILLON, BERNIE 
 
NO2 5 
*NO3 1
*NO3 2
*NO3 3
*NO3 4
*NO3 5
*NO3 6
*NO3 7 

COOPER, ROGER "CAPS" 
 
NO2 9 
*NO3 1
*NO3 2
*NO3 3
*NO3 4
*NO3 5
*NO3 6
*NO3 7 
NW2 9-FB 

RIDER, ROBERT "ROBBIE" 
 
NO2 16 
*NO3 5 

RIDER, GLORIA 
 
NO2 15 
*NO3 5 

RIDER, CHARLES 
 
NO2 15 
*NO3 5 

Guest appearances: 

SHE-HULK/JENNIFER WALTERS 
 
HFH 19 
W '99/2 
*NO3 1 
FF3 22 
FF3 23 
 

FIRELORD/PYREUS KRIL [XANDAREAN] 
 
A 259 
*NO3 1-FB 
A 260 
 

ADORA 
 
ROM 24 
*NO3 1-FB 
A 260 
 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
 
XM 51 
*NO3 1
*NO3 5 
PPSM2 4 
 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN GRANT ROGERS 
 
CA3 19 
*NO3 2 
BP3 8-FB 
 

THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" [ASGARDIAN] 
 
TB 25 
*NO3 3 
BP3 7-FB 
 

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS 
 
ASM2 4 
*NO3 3
*NO3 4 
SUP/FF 
FF3 13 
 

INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUE STORM RICHARDS 
 
ASM2 4 
*NO3 3
*NO3 4 
SUP/FF 
FF3 13 
 

HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM 
 
ASM2 4 
*NO3 3
*NO3 4 
SUP/FF 
FF3 13 
 

THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM 
 
W '99/2 
ASM2 4 
*NO3 3
*NO3 4 
SUP/FF 
FF3 13 
 

RED RAVEN 
 
INV2 1-BTS 
*NO3 4
*NO3 5
*NO3 7 
CM5 16 
 

Villains: 

RHINO/ALEX O'HIRN 
 
TW 13 
*NO3 1 
DPOOL3 66 
 

NEBULA 
 
SS3 110 
*NO3 1 

DOCTOR OCTOPUS/OTTO OCTAVIUS 
 
ASM2 4-BTS 
*NO3 1 
PPSM2 4-BTS 
 

GRINDER/ 
S-W 26 
*NO3 1 

KID QUARRY 
NO2 10 
*NO3 2 

DIAMONDHEAD/DYKER 
 
ROM 24-FB 
ROM 24 
*NO3 2-FB 
Q 16 
Q 19-BTS 
Q 20 
NO2 10 
*NO3 2 

SPHINX 
 
NW 71 
*NO3 3
*NO3 4
*NO3 5
*NO3 6 

QUINTRONIC MAN 
H2 213 
*NO3 3 

CONDOR 
 
NO2 13 
*NO3 3
*NO3 4
*NO3 7 

REANIMATOR/ 
*NO3 3 
W2 140 
*NO3 5-BTS
*NO3 7 
W2 149 

QUICKSAND 
 
TB 25 
*NO3 4 

BADD AXE 
NO3 5 

FIRE-ARMS 
NO3 5 

VAMPIRO 
NO3 5 

BROCK, EDDIE 
See also Venom 
 
V: F 3 
*NO3 6
*NO3 7 
PPSM2 8-BTS 
PPSM2 9 
 

VENOM 
 
V: F 3 
*NO3 6
*NO3 7 
PPSM2 8-BTS 
PPSM2 9 
 

BI-BEAST II 
 
H2 412 
*NO3 7 
DEF2 5 
DEF2 6 

KANGAROO II/Brian Hibbs/Billy Bob Jenks 
PPTSS 242 
PPTSS 244 
PPTSS 245 
PPTSS 246 
W2 164 
TW 16 
TW 17 
*NO3 7-BTS 

Others: 

BROCK, MARY 
NO3 3 
NO3 6-BTS 

LARSEN, ERIK 
NO3 7 

BENNETT, JOE 
NO3 7 

DIAZ, RUBEN 
NO3 7 

CHASE, BOBBIE 
NO3 7 

HARRAS, BOB 
UX 341 
*NO3 7

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 14, 2007 4:24 am 
By JLH

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
BROCK, EDDIE
See also Venom

V: F 3
*NO3 6
*NO3 7
PPSM2 8-BTS
PPSM2 9
 

VENOM

V: F 3
*NO3 6
*NO3 7
PPSM2 8-BTS
PPSM2 9

<<<

These placements can't work whatsoever. Venom is "dead" and Eddie in prison after V:F 3. Here's how it should go: 


BROCK, EDDIE 
... 
PPSM2 10 
*NO3 6 
*NO3 7 
ASM2 12 
... 

VENOM 
... 
PPSM2 10 
*NO3 6 
*NO3 7 
ASM2 12 
...

			*	*	*

Sep 14, 2007 7:31 am 
By lkseitz

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Nova v3 #2

Synopsis: 
Pg6-pg13: next day
Later, Nova visits Ginger & Darren at the hospital, where Diamondhead has been hired to kill an abortionist. After a quick fight, Diamondhead reminds Nova of something
Pg14-pg15-FB: Rom Spaceknight 24
Diamondhead is melting a bunch of Skrulls and Nova corpsmen on Epyrus-7. Nova doesnt like it, so he puts everyone out of their misery with a giant gravimetric pulse. 
Pg16-pg22
Diamondhead tells Nova that the Xandarians removed those memories from Nova, then Captain America happens by. Nova borrows his energy shield and shatters Diamondhead.

pg14-pg15-FB is either repeated information from Rom 24, or its a new scene. I dont have Rom 24, but Ill suggest a placement for it anyway. If its new, its either between pages of Rom 24, or after it in any case, its definitely before NW@ 1/7 (2:4)-FB, where Rich returns to Earth.(which I do own)
<<<

Actually, this flashback in NO3 2 is really hard to place. It has to be before ROM 24. Well, here, let me summarize that issue. 

Rom comes out of hyperspace near Xandar in the Skrull saucer he borrowed from the FF. Nova and other Xandarians intercept him, assuming he's a bad guy since he came in a Skrull saucer. After a brief fight they talk, realize the misunderstanding, and go to Xandar. 

At Xandar, Nova tells Rom that the New Champions (Diamondhead, Comet, and Crimebuster) flew off after the Nova Corps to fight the Skrulls and they haven't heard from them since. Just then, the Nova Corps returns [What are the odds?], apparently victorious. They beam down, then reveal themselves as Skrulls and a battle ensues. Nova flies to the mile-long ship and discovers Diamondhead has betrayed Xandar. Nova realizes Diamondhead used the ship's phaser, a "super-scientific life-preserver" that lets the crew phase to another dimension in emergencies, to trap the Nova Corps. Nova knocks Diamondhead into space and releases the Nova Corps, whereupon Comet tells him what happened. Diamondhead let the Skrulls seize the New Champions ship, then sent a distress signal to attract the Nova Corps and captured them (as above). 

So now that the readers know everything, Rom and Xandar's heroes defeat the Skrulls. Then Nova, who wants to go home now that he's heard about the threat of the Dire Wraiths to his family, is stripped of his powers and sent back to Earth. (He didn't know the Xandarians would insist the Nova powers stay with them.) Whew! 

So, in short [Too late!], the flashback in NO3 1 has to take place before ROM 24, because after it Nova's lost his powers. Unfortunately, while I grabbed these two issues before I left for work, I didn't grab NO2 10 where Diamondhead comes back, which might (or might not) help with placement. I also don't own the FF issues that set up the Xandar-Skrull war. 

But if Diamondhead went off and Xandar (and Nova) didn't see him again until he came back in ROM 24, how could he betray them in the NO3 1 flashback? Could it be this happened before the New Champions left and the Xandarians hoped the conditioning they used on Diamondhead would keep him from betraying them again? Seems pretty stupid to me, but I can't think of anything else that makes sense chronologically. 

I'll also have to pull out NW@ 1, but I suspect the end of ROM 24 leads directly into NW@ 1/7. Can someone tell me if the flashback in ROM 24 of the New Champions leaving to pursue the Nova Corps without Nova actually happens in FF 209 or is it new information? The entry at FFPlaza.com isn't detailed enough for me to be certain.

Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Sep 14, 2007 9:29 pm 
By lkseitz

lkseitz wrote:
>>>
Unfortunately, while I grabbed these two issues before I left for work, I didn't grab NO2 10 where Diamondhead comes back, which might (or might not) help with placement.
<<<

Well, it doesn't help with placement, but it is rather important. In NO2 10, Diamondhead first mentions Epyrus-7 to Nova. It evokes bits and pieces of memory, but it's not as detailed as NO3 2. This earlier flashback mentions planets being destroyed, a division of Centurions dying, a unit of Skrulls being hit by an unseen force, Diamondhead reveling in the battle, and shows the silhouette of the woman seen in the later flashback. It doesn't mention the virus, Diamondhead betraying Xandar, or Nova's mercy killing. Diamondhead also mentions they tried to wipe his memories like Nova's, but it didn't work. 

Diamondhead rather mysteriously gets away just afterwards. Nova goes to the FF seeing if they can provide any answers about this memory. Of the ones Nova met back in FF 206-209, only the Thing is there, and he can't help. Nova is quickly distracted by other events. I don't have the complete vol. 2 series, but after being mentioned at the beginning of #11, it's not mentioned again in #12 or #13. I suspect the subplot was dropped, which is why Larsen tried to address some of it in vol. 3.

Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Sep 15, 2007 1:09 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Good catch on Venom! 

Just so we're on the same page, 

lkseitz wrote:
>>>
Rom comes out of hyperspace near Xandar in the Skrull saucer he borrowed from the FF. Nova and other Xandarians intercept him, assuming he's a bad guy since he came in a Skrull saucer. After a brief fight they talk, realize the misunderstanding, and go to Xandar. 

At Xandar, Nova tells Rom that the New Champions (Diamondhead, Comet, and Crimebuster) flew off after the Nova Corps to fight the Skrulls and they haven't heard from them since. Just then, the Nova Corps returns [What are the odds?], apparently victorious. They beam down, then reveal themselves as Skrulls and a battle ensues. Nova flies to the mile-long ship and discovers Diamondhead has betrayed Xandar. Nova realizes Diamondhead used the ship's phaser, a "super-scientific life-preserver" that lets the crew phase to another dimension in emergencies, to trap the Nova Corps. Nova knocks Diamondhead into space and releases the Nova Corps, whereupon Comet tells him what happened. Diamondhead let the Skrulls seize the New Champions ship, then sent a distress signal to attract the Nova Corps and captured them (as above). 
<<<

Is the FlashBack, right? And, 


lkseitz wrote:
>>>
So now that the readers know everything, Rom and Xandar's heroes defeat the Skrulls. Then Nova, who wants to go home now that he's heard about the threat of the Dire Wraiths to his family, is stripped of his powers and sent back to Earth. (He didn't know the Xandarians would insist the Nova powers stay with them.) Whew! 
<<<

Is the current 'now' portion. Right? 

In that case, NO3 2-FB would be either between pages of ROM 24-FB, or after ROM 24-FB and before ROM 24. But it sounds like this goes between pages of ROM 24-FB...


lkseitz wrote:
>>>
I'll also have to pull out NW@ 1, but I suspect the end of ROM 24 leads directly into NW@ 1/7.
<<<

NW@ 1/7 (2:4)-FB shows a powerless Rich being lowered onto his lawn, so yeah, pretty much. 


lkseitz wrote:
>>>
Can someone tell me if the flashback in ROM 24 of the New Champions leaving to pursue the Nova Corps without Nova actually happens in FF 209 or is it new information? 
<<<

I don't have ROM 24 to compare, but FF 209 starts with Nova, the FF, and the New Champions together, all watching Reed build H.E.R.B.I.E. Then the FF takes off, leaving Nova with the New Champions. We then see Skrulls being Skrully, and then Nova hanging out with the New Champions. The rest of the issue is about the FF. Since we don't see Nova and the New Champions part ways, I'll say that ROM 24-FB is new information in this case. 


lkseitz wrote:
>>>
In NO2 10, Diamondhead first mentions Epyrus-7 to Nova. It evokes bits and pieces of memory, but it's not as detailed as NO3 2. This earlier flashback mentions planets being destroyed, a division of Centurions dying, a unit of Skrulls being hit by an unseen force, Diamondhead reveling in the battle, and shows the silhouette of the woman seen in the later flashback. It doesn't mention the virus, Diamondhead betraying Xandar, or Nova's mercy killing. Diamondhead also mentions they tried to wipe his memories like Nova's, but it didn't work. 
<<<

Could all of this, and NO3 2-FB, take place in-between pages of ROM 24-FB? Meaning, they show more of what happened, that was originally 'glossed over'? 


lkseitz wrote:
>>>
I don't have the complete vol. 2 series, but after being mentioned at the beginning of #11, it's not mentioned again in #12 or #13. I suspect the subplot was dropped, which is why Larsen tried to address some of it in vol. 3.
<<<

Most likely. The first five issues had a lot of house keeping, resetting a lot of Nova's status quo. The Nebula stuff, the Diamondback stuff, the Ginger stuff, his parent's house, etc. Lots of house keeping. 

How's this look: 

ROM 24-FB: 
At Xandar, Nova tells Rom that the New Champions (Diamondhead, Comet, and Crimebuster) flew off after the Nova Corps to fight the Skrulls and they haven't heard from them since. Just then, the Nova Corps returns [What are the odds?], apparently victorious. They beam down, then reveal themselves as Skrulls and a battle ensues. Nova flies to the mile-long ship and discovers Diamondhead has betrayed Xandar. Nova realizes Diamondhead used the ship's phaser, a "super-scientific life-preserver" that lets the crew phase to another dimension in emergencies, to trap the Nova Corps. 

NO2 10-FB: 
planets being destroyed, a division of Centurions dying, a unit of Skrulls being hit by an unseen force, Diamondhead reveling in the battle, and shows the silhouette of the woman seen in the later flashback. 

NO3 2-FB: 
Diamondhead is melting a bunch of Skrulls and Nova corpsmen on Epyrus-7. Nova doesnt like it, so he puts everyone out of their misery with a giant gravimetric pulse. 

ROM 24-FB: 
Nova knocks Diamondhead into space and releases the Nova Corps, whereupon Comet tells him what happened. Diamondhead let the Skrulls seize the New Champions ship, then sent a distress signal to attract the Nova Corps and captured them. 

ROM 24: 
Rom and Xandar's heroes defeat the Skrulls. Then Nova, who wants to go home now that he's heard about the threat of the Dire Wraiths to his family, is stripped of his powers and sent back to Earth. 

That would mean only some of the Nova Corps were captured, and the rest were melted, I guess.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 15, 2007 3:12 pm 
By DonCampbell

Your chronology is a bit off regarding what happens in ROM #24. So here is a more precise accounting of the five flashbacks in that issue. 

Flashback #1 (page 2, panel 2) - Rom recalls how Reed Richards programmed Galador's coordinates into the guidance system of their captured Skrull saucer. This is a slightly different version of a panel on the last page of ROM #23. 

Flashback #2 (page 5, panels 1-5) - Rom tells Nova how he came to Earth in pursuit of the Dire Wraiths, why he wants to return to Galador, and how the Fantastic Four provided him with the means to do so. 

Flashback #3 (page 7, panels 1-3) - Queen Adora tells Rom about Xandar's war with the Skrulls. The first two panels recap events from FANTASTIC FOUR #204-209 but the third panel provides new information. FF #209 showed Queen Adora lending the Nova-Prime ship to the FF to help them in their quest to find Galactus, then the (off-screen) attacks by the newly-empowered Prime Thoran led to Emperor Dorrek being assassinated by his wife, Empress R'klll, who ordered the Skrull fleet to pull back while she summoned more ships for a final attack on Xandar. The Nova-Prime starship was last seen in FF #210 in a docking bay on Galactus' world-ship. However, the third panel shows the Prime Thoran/Protector leading the Nova Corps (aboard the mile-long Nova ship) "into space in pursuit of the Skrulls." 

Flashback #4 (page 7, panel 5) - Nova tells Rom that Comet, Crimebuster and Diamondhead (who had been left behind with Nova and Powerhouse to safeguard Xandar from Skrull attacks that never came) left Xandar in a small craft to follow the Nova Corps into battle. 

Flashback #5 (page 16, panels 2-4) - The newly-rescued Comet tells Nova how the treacherous Diamondhead had allowed the Skrulls to seize the small craft which they then used to transmit a false distress signal that drew the Nova Corps into a trap. Crimebuster discoverd the Skrulls but was killed by them before he could warn anybody, then Comet and the Nova Corps were all phased into another dimension as part of the Skrull ambush. 

Everything else in this issue is "current" and set in the then-present time. Based on this, I must conclude that the events depicted in NO2 10-FB and NO3 2-FB take place after FF 209 but before that third panel of new information on page 7 of ROM 24. This would qualify as "between panels of ROM 24-FB." I can't speak for how well this fits but it's the only place where it CAN fit. 

The listings should be like this: 

FF 209 - recapped in ROM 24-FB (page 7, panels 1-2) 
NO2 10-FB 
NO3 2-FB 
ROM 24-FB (page 7, panels 3 & 5) 
ROM 24-FB (page 16, panels 2-4) 
ROM 24 (ALL the non-FB events happen) 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Sep 15, 2007 10:08 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

So you're saying the chronologies should look like this? 

NOVA/RICHARD RIDER 
 
FF 209 
*NO2 10-FB
*NO3 2-FB 
*ROM 24-FB 
ROM 24 
NW@ 1/7 (2:4)-FB 
 

DIAMONDHEAD/DYKER 
 
FF 209 
NO2 10-FB 
*NO3 2-FB 
ROM 24-FB 
ROM 24 
Q 16 
...

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 15, 2007 11:16 pm 
By DonCampbell

Yes, that looks right to me. As for the other characters from the Xandar storyline, the existing chronologies for Comet/Harris Moore and Powerhouse/Rieg Davan are accurate but there are two others which could use VERY minor adjustments. 

First, Crimebuster/Frank Moore is killed in ROM 24-FB but, since his body is NOT depicted in the "current" portion of the story, the subsequent listing of ROM 24 should be removed. 

Second, although Protector III doesn't appear in any FB in ROM 24, the FB panel which shows the Nova ship heading off into space in pursuit of the Skrulls does specifically mention that the Protector was leading the Nova Corps in that mission. Therefore, he was BTS for that panel, right? If so, then his last four appearances should be listed like this: 
... 
FF 208 
FF 209-BTS 
ROM 24-FB-BTS 
ROM 24 

By the way, have any of these characters (besides Nova, Diamondhead and Queen Adora) been seen since Rom #24? Or is the statement that Adora made (when Firelord found her dying in the ruins of Xandar in Avengers #260) about how "all of Xandar's champions (were) slain" by Nebula considered to account for them? 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Sep 16, 2007 8:15 pm 
By lkseitz

I concur that's about right, but I'm wondering if it shouldn't be 

NO2 10-FB ~ NO3 2-FB 

because the flashback in NO3 2 is really more of an expansion of the original flashback than a direct follow-on. 

And since we're on the subject of Nova, I don't understand why NW@ 1/7 (2:4)-FB constitutes it's own entry. It's essentially a mirror image of ROM 24 (19:3), imparting no new information. Furthermore, ROM 24 (19:4) follows it directly. I think simply striking NW@ 1/7 (2:4)-FB from Nova's chronology makes sense.

Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Sep 16, 2007 8:25 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

No. You should never see a "~" as part of a flashback listing. Flashbacks either impart new information, or they don't. 


watching: alabama vs. arkansas

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

Sep 16, 2007 8:31 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I had to be told a couple of times that we don't use the '~' for Flashbacks. If they really are the same scene, one expanding on the other, then the panels should be split up accordingly. However, I don't own any Nova vol2 issues... 

-edit- 

It looks like the Boss beat me to it. 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Thread 40

Subject: Amazing Spider-Girl #9-12

Sep 20, 2007 2:26 pm 
By michaelyuri

Amazing Spider-Girl #9: Specimen 297! 
Script, Plot & Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz 
Inks: Sal Buscema 


Characters Appearing: 
Carnage/Specimen 297 
Darkdevil 
De Fontaine, Contessa Valentina Allegro 
DeSantos, Simone 
Duran, Courtney 
Earthshaker 
Hill, Maria 
Kaine 
Killerwatt 
Kirby, Davida 
Mansfield, Arthur 
Mansfield, Donna 
Mansfield, Moose 
Miller, Brad 
Mister Abnormal 
Noble, Heather 
Parker, Ben 
Slattery, Mr. 
Spider-Girl 
Spider-Man 
Thompson, Gene 
Watson-Parker, Mary Jane 
Weadon, Agent 
Westin, Wes 
Yama, Jimmy 


Synopsis: 
1: Recap Page 

2-3: Maria Hill talks to Agent Weadon, giving his team the mission of protecting the top secret "specimen 297". 

4-6: May swings to school and meets up with her friends in the hall. She learns that Courtney plans to surprise Moose with a visit, to see where their relationship stands. 

7: Kaine and Darkdevil review the route Specimen 297 will be traveling. 

8: May learns that Courtney will be visiting Moose at the hospital. 

9: Peter and MJ talk about May's return to crime-fighting. Principal Slattery calls, and MJ tells Peter about her job offer. 

10: Darkdevil watches while Kaine's team prepare to transport Specimen 297. 

11: May learns that Courtney has left school. 

12: Courtney arrives at Moose's father's hospital room. She sees him with his arm around another girl, and runs off crying. 

13-20: Kaine's team is transported Specimen 297. May is walking down the street nearby. Suddenly, another Shield team led by Contessa Valentina Allegro de Fontaine ambushes Kaine's team and hijacks Specimen 297. The fighting sets off May's Spider-Sense, and she joins the fight against the hijackers. The fighting stops when the Contessa reveals herself as a Shield agent, but the find that the container holding Specimen 297 has cracked. 

21-22: Specimen 297 is the Carnage symbiote, which slinks along the ground until it encounters someone wearing a Midtown High letter jacket. The symbiote engulfs the person and becomes Carnage. 


Continuity Notes: 
The issue takes place in a single day. 


------------------------------ 
Amazing Spider-Girl #10: Comes the Carnage! 
Script, Plot & Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz 
Inks: Sal Buscema 


Characters Appearing: 
Bridge, President G.W. 
Carnage 
Darkdevil 
De Fontaine, Contessa Valentina Allegro 
Drasco 
Duran, Courtney 
Earthshaker 
Fury, Nick 
Hill, Maria 
Kaine 
Killerwatt 
Kirby, Davida 
Mansfield, Moose 
Mister Abnormal 
Parker, Benjamin 
Ruiz, Captain 
Slattery, Mr. 
Spider-Girl 
Spider-Man 
Watson-Parker, Mary Jane 
Weadon, Arthur 


Synopsis: 
1: Recap page 

2-3: Carnage attacks a group of Central high students. The host is fighting the symbiote, keeping it from killing anyone. 

4-5: Spider-Girl is with the Shield team attempting to track down Specimen 297. Davida calls to tell her that Courtney is upset after seeing Moose with another girl. 

6: Peter and the police are trying to get information at the scene of the hijacking, but Hill and Weadon won't reveal anything. 

7: Darkdevil and Kaine's team are trying to track down the hijackers. 

8-13: May meets up with her friends at the Cafe. Carnage attacks, but runs off without killing anyone. 

14-15: Weadon is furious about the hijacking and wants to track down Spider-Girl. Kaine and Darkdevil meet up with Spider-Girl and she reveals that Specimen 297 is Carnage. 

16: President Bridge is speaking with a shadowy figure who is apparently in charge of the Specimen 297 operation. 

17-18: The next morning, May realizes that Carnage is someone she knows, but can't figure out who. MJ accompanies May to school to meet with Principal Slattery. 

19-20: Carnage attacks the Parker house where Peter and Ben are home alone. 

21-22: May and MJ arrive home to find the house broken into. Peter and Ben are gone, but the words "HELP ME" are written on the wall in blood. 


Continuity Notes: 
Follows immediately after ASG 9, and continues into the next day. 


------------------------------ 
Amazing Spider-Girl #11: The Bough Breaks! 
Script, Plot & Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz 
Inks: Sal Buscema 


Characters Appearing: 
Carnage 
Earthshaker 
Hill, Maria 
Killerwatt 
Mansfield, Arthur 
Mansfield, Moose 
Mister Abnormal 
Parker, Benjamin 
Spider-Girl 
Spider-Man 
Watson-Parker, Mary Jane 


Synopsis: 
1-2: Carnage holds Ben and Peter hostage. 

3: MJ is cleaning up the damage to the Parker house left by Carnage. 

4: Recap page. 

5-7: Spider-Girl swings around searching for Carnage. She finds that both Weadon's team and Shield are after her. 

8-9: Carnage taunts Peter and leaves carrying Ben. 

10-11: Spider-Girl hides from Shield, and realizes who Carnage is. 

12: Peter keeps trying to break free from Carnage's webbing. 

13-15: Spider-Girl finds Carnage with her brother. She reveals that she knows that Moose is the host. Moose is cooperating with Carnage because he wants to heal his father who is dying from cancer. 

16: Peter breaks free. 

17-22: Spider-Girl and Carnage battle inside the hospital. Carnage throws Ben out the window. Spider-Girl rescues him, only to discover that he has been infected by the symbiote. 


Continuity Notes: 
This issue follows immediately after ASG 10, all in the same day. 


------------------------------ 
Amazing Spider-Girl #12: Only the Innocent Must Die! 
Script, Plot & Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz 
Inks: Sal Buscema 


Characters Appearing: 
Carnage Symbiote 
Darkdevil 
De Fontaine, Contessa Valentina Allegro 
Duran, Courtney 
Eagle Three 
Earthshaker 
Fury, Nick 
Hill, Maria 
Kaine 
Killerwatt 
Mansfield, Arthur 
Mansfield, Donna 
Mansfield, Moose 
Mister Abnormal 
Parker, Benjamin 
Spider-Girl 
Spider-Man 
Watson-Parker, Mary Jane 


Synopsis: 
1: Recap 

2-3: Ben/Carnage and Moose/Carnage attack Spider-Girl. 

4-7: Peter tries unsuccessfully to get in touch with May. Spider-Girl webs up Ben and tries to escape. A Shield agent shows up to join the fight, but Carnage destroys his flying car. Spider-Girl rescues the Shield agent. Ben escapes the webbing and attacks her along with Carnage. 

8-10: Weadon's team joins the fight, but are quickly defeated by Carnage. Carnage leaves with Ben to head for the hospital. 

11: Peter contacts May by phone. She sends him to the police property room. 

12: Kaine and Darkdevil confront the Contessa. She reveals that the hijacking was a Shield plot to create political pressure to destroy the Carnage symbiotes. 

13-14: Courtney arrives at the hospital, meets the woman who she had seen with Moose, and learns that it is his cousin. Carnage attacks the hospital, threatening Courtney. 

15: Spider-Girl arrives and battles Carnage. 

16-17: Peter arrives at the hospital with the Reverb sonic armor. He learns that Ben is infected and won't use the armor on him. 

18-19: Spider-Girl takes the Reverb armor and shoots Ben, destroying the symbiote. She leaves to find Moose. Peter goes to Ben and learns that Ben has been deafened by the blast. 

20-21: Spider-Girl shoots Moose, destroying the symbiote. Moose is furious with Spider-Girl because this was his only chance at saving his father. May learns that Ben is deaf and that it may be permanent. 

22: The mysterious figure directing the Shield teams is revealed to be Nick Fury. 


Continuity Notes: 
This issue occurs over only a few hours, immediately following ASG 11. 

------------------------------ 

Chronology entries: 

Bridge, President G.W. 
. . . 
LPS 5 
*ASG 10 

*Carnage Symbiote/Specimen 297 
*ASG 9 
*ASG 10 
*ASG 11 
*ASG 12 

Darkdevil/Reilly Tyne 
. . . 
AVN 4 
*ASG 9 
*ASG 10 
*ASG 12 

*De Fontaine, Contessa Valentina Allegro 
*ASG 9 
*ASG 10 
*ASG 12 

DeSantos, Simone 
. . . 
ASG 5 
*ASG 9 

Drasco, Detective Vinnie 
. . . 
ASG 7 
*ASG 10 

Duran, Courtney Marie 
. . . 
ASG 8 
*ASG 9 
*ASG 10 
*ASG 12 

*Eagle Three 
*ASG 12 

Earthshaker 
SG 21 
*ASG 9 
*ASG 10 
*ASG 11 
*ASG 12 

*Fury, Nick 
*ASG 10 
*ASG 12 

*Hill, Maria 
*ASG 9 
*ASG 10 
*ASG 11 
*ASG 12 

Kaine 
. . . 
SG 100 
*ASG 9 
*ASG 10 
*ASG 12 

Killerwatt 
. . . 
LPS 5 
*ASG 9 
*ASG 10 
*ASG 11 
*ASG 12 

Kirby, Davida Jacqueline 
. . . 
ASG 8 
*ASG 9 
*ASG 10 

Mansfield, Arthur 
. . . 
SG 97 
*ASG 9 
*ASG 11 
*ASG 12 

*Mansfield, Donna 
*ASG 9 
*ASG 12 

Mansfield, Maurice Arthur "Moose" 
. . . 
SG 100 
*ASG 9 
*ASG 10 
*ASG 11 
*ASG 12 

Miller, Brad 
. . . 
SG 96 
*ASG 9 

Mister Abnormal 
. . . 
LPS 5 
*ASG 9 
*ASG 10 
*ASG 11 
*ASG 12 

Noble, Heather 
. . . 
ASG 8 
*ASG 9 

Parker, Benjamin Richard 
. . . 
ASG 8 
*ASG 9 
*ASG 10 
*ASG 11 
*ASG 12 

Ruiz, Captain "Rigger" 
. . . 
ASG 4 
*ASG 10 

Slattery, Mr. 
. . . 
ASG 8 
*ASG 9 
*ASG 10 

Spider-Girl/May "Mayday" Parker 
. . . 
ASG 8 
*ASG 9 
*ASG 10 
*ASG 11 
*ASG 12 

Spider-Man/Peter Parker 
. . . 
ASG 8 
*ASG 9 
*ASG 10 
*ASG 11 
*ASG 12 

Thompson, Eugene, "Gene" 
. . . 
ASG 8 
*ASG 9 

Watson-Parker, Mary Jane 
. . . 
ASG 8 
*ASG 9 
*ASG 10 
*ASG 11 
*ASG 12 

Weadon, Arthur 
. . . 
SG 99 
*ASG 9 
*ASG 10 

*Westin, Wes <- added last name 
. . . 
ASG 8 
*ASG 9 

Yama, Jimmy 
. . . 
ASG 8 
*ASG 9 


------------------------------ 

-Mike

			*	*	*

Thread 41

Subject: Wolverine: Origins 17

Sep 23, 2007 1:52 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine: Origins #16 
Wolverine: Origins #17 
Published: November, 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Cyber-FB, Sabretooth-FB, Seraph-FB, Captain America-FB, Bucky-FB, Sgt. Nick Fury-FB 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2-FB: WORLD WAR TWO 
Logan and the Devils Brigade slaughter German troops. 
Pg3-FB-FB 
Repeat of W: O 12-FB & W: O 15-FB, no new information. 
Pg4: now 
Logan has a drink at the Captain America memorial. 
Pg5-pg8-FB: after W: O 12-FB & W: O 15-FB 
Logan, with one eye, runs off into the woods and gets naked. Later, hes found by Sabretooth and they fight. Hes then shot by Cyber, and the two of them reel Logan back in. 
Pg9-FB: 1930s 
Logan gets off a boat in Madripoor and is greeted by Seraph. Elsewhere, Cyber is seen in Germany. 
Pg10: now 
Logan has another drink at the Captain America memorial. 
Pg11-pg16-FB: November, 1941 
In Operation: Blueboy, Captain America, Bucky, and American troops airlift supplies from Britain to Africa, but they run out of gas and crash. Logan is given orders to retrieve them, so he joins up with Sgt. Fury who is stationed nearby. 
Pg17pn1-pg17pn4(of 5): now 
Logan has another drink at the Captain America memorial. 
Pg17pn5-pg22-FB: November, 1941 
Sgt. Fury and his men get Logan to the crash site and supply suppressing fire as he makes his way to the plane. When he arrives, Captain America is surprised to see Logan. He offers to take him up on his offer to be partners, but Bucky isnt too pleased by it. 

References: 
Current day: 
All in one night, same night as last issue. 

Flashbacks: 
Pg5-pg8-FB shows what happened immediately after W: O 12-FB & W: O 15-FB. 

Pg9-FB is sometime during Logans time in Madripoor. This isnt his first time there, he already seems to know Seraph. Also, its suggested that Cyber will be working with the Axis while Logan will be working with the Allies during the war. 

Pg11-pg16-FB & pg17pn5-pg22-FB all take place in one day, after midnight through the following day into night, labeled as November, 1941. And, pleasant surprise, this doesnt go against anything previously established! Sgt. Fury was stationed in Africa at the time, the Howling Commandos havent been formed yet, and thankfully there are no appearances by any of them here. Being set in Africa, this should go after Sgt. Fury 62, which shows Furys basic training, and most likely before Fury: Peacemaker 1 & 2. 

In Uncanny 268-FB, the idea came up of Logan partnering up with Captain America,(Cap already had a partner, but hey, whatever, why not make it trio?) but he turned him down. In W: O 16-FB, Seraph told Logan to do it anyway. Here, we see how that went. 

For those who care about such things, I have this tentatively set on 9 November, 1941.(the dialogue mentions this is before America got involved, so I have this before the Tunisia Campaign) 

So far so good! And now, some placement suggestions: 

WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT 
 
M/CP 97 
M/CP 98-FB 
W: O 15 (8-10)-FB (1912) 
W: O 12 (10-11)-FB 
W: O 15 (13:1)-FB 
*W: O 17 (5-8)-FB 
W2 113-FB 
 
X: TF 3 (1936) 
L: PW (1-9) 
*W: O 17 (9)-FB 
W: O 9-FB 
*W: O 17 (1-2)-FB 
W2 106-FB 
UX 268 (1-5)-FB (08/41) 
 
UX 268 (22)-FB 
W: O 16 (21)-FB 
*W: O 17 (11-16)-FB (11/41) 
*W: O 17 (17:5-22)-FB 
W3 32 (05/42) 
 

CYBER/SILAS BURR 
W: O 14 (15:4-20)-FB 
W: O 15 (8-10)-FB (1912) 
W: O 12 (10)-FB 
W: O 15 (12)-FB 
W: O 12 (11)-FB 
W: O 15 (14:3)-FB, (14:5)-FB 
*W: O 17 (5-8)-FB 
*W: O 17 (9)-FB 
M/CP 85 
 

SABRETOOTH/VICTOR CREED 
 
W: O 14-FB 
*W: O 17-FB 
W3 52-FB 
W3 53-FB 
 

SERAPH 
W2 126 (6:2)-FB 
W2 126 (8)-FB 
W: O @1 (4-21)-FB 
*W: O 17-FB 
{UX 268 (9-11:5)-FB} (08/41) 
 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 10/3 
*W: O 17-FB (11/41) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 22/3 
CA 139-FB 
 

BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN BUCKY BARNES 
 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 10/3 
*W: O 17-FB (11/41) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 22/3 
CA 139-FB 
 

FURY, SGT. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
 
MARVELS 1 
SGTF 62 
*W: O 17-FB (11/41) 
FURY: PM 1-FB (5) 
FURY: PM 1-FB (8) 


Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Thread 42

Subject: Union Jack 1-3

Sep 01, 2007 1:18 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Union Jack #1 
Published: December, 1998 

Appearances: 
Union Jack III(Joey Chapman), Kenneth Falsworth, Baroness Blood, Romany Wisdom, Spitfire(Lady Jacqueline Falsworth Crichton) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12pn3 
Union Jack fights vampires in a church. 
Pg12pn4-pg15-FB: three weeks ago 
Joey Chapman & Kenneth Crichton go to Kens friends funeral. Joey spies Baroness Blood chatting with Ken.(not that he knew it was Baroness Blood at the time) 
Pg16-pg32 
Union Jack takes an artifact to Romany Wisdom, who tells him that the local vampires are after the Holy Grail. Meanwhile, Kens friend rises from the grave, vampire style. Later, Joey & Ken go out for drinks, and later still, Kens totally blasted and Spitfire, his mom, isnt too happy about it. 

References: 
Modern Day of the time story. Spitfires youth has been restored by the Human Torch, etc. 

There are two Remembrance FlashBacks to the first Union Jack, neither adds any new information. 

Union Jack #2 
Published: January, 1999 

Appearances: 
Union Jack III(Joey Chapman), Kenneth Falsworth, Baroness Blood, Romany Wisdom, Spitfire(Lady Jacqueline Falsworth Crichton), Baron Blood(John Falsworth)-FB 


Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7: day after last issue 
Ken wakes up with a hangover, he and Spitfire have words. That night, Union Jack goes to the museum to see if the Holy Grail is still there. 
Pg8-pg16pn1: next day 
Joey & Ken meet Romany in the park, Ken chats with Baroness Blood. Later, Joey tells Spitfire that vampires are on the loose, but she doesnt listen. Elsewhere, Baroness Blood plots. 
Pg16pn2-pg16pn4-FB 
Baron Blood turns a woman(who will eventually be Baroness Blood, last name Cromwell) into a vampire. 
Pg16pn5(of 6)-pg18 
Ken approaches Baroness Blood and asks her to turn him into a vampire. 
Pg19-pg32: later 
Union Jack tries to stop the theft of the Holy Grail, but is attacked by the new Baron Blood Ken! 

References: 
Theres a Remembrance FlashBack to Baron Blood crushing the first Union Jacks legs, no new information. 

I have to assume that theres at least a few days between pg18 & pg19, enough time for Ken to be vampirized. 

Union Jack #3 
Published: February, 1999 

Appearances: 
Union Jack III(Joey Chapman), Kenneth Falsworth, Baroness Blood, Romany Wisdom, Spitfire(Lady Jacqueline Falsworth Crichton) 


Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg26pn5: same night as end of last issue 
Union Jack fights off the new Baron Blood, who runs away. The vampires get away with the grail, and Union Jack has a chat with Romany at his place. He then decides to go to Falsworth Manor, where the place is being attacked by vampires. He stops their attack with Spitfires help. 
Pg26pn6(of 8)-pg31pn3: after midnight, next day 
Union Jack finds Baroness Blood, but not in time to stop her from drinking from the Holy Grail. Now that she can walk in daylight, she crushes the grail as the sun rises, and all the gathered vampires turn to dust. Baroness Blood gets away as Union Jack holds Ken as he turns to ash. 
Pg31pn4(of 7)-pg32: eight months later 
Baroness Blood is about to give birth. Elsewhere, Joey & Jacqueline visit Kens grave. 

References: 
Spitfire is throwing a Christmas party! 

Ken becomes the new Baron Blood in this mini, then dies. Ill suggest adding Baron Blood III to his listing. 

Placement suggestions: 

UNION JACK III/JOEY CHAPMAN 
 
KOP 18 
*UJ 1-FB
*UJ 1
*UJ 2
*UJ 3 
TB 25 
 

BARON BLOOD/JOHN FALSWORTH 
 
CA3 21/2 
N@ 2/2 
*UJ 2-FB 
CA 253 
CA 254 

BARON BLOOD III/KENNETH FALSWORTH 
(CRICHTON, KENNETH should be deleted, it's a duplicate entry) 
CA 253 
CA 254 
M/CP 42/3-FB 
M/CP 89/3 
*UJ 1-FB
*UJ 1
*UJ 2
*UJ 3 

BARONESS BLOOD/CROMWELL 
UJ 2-FB 
UJ 1 
UJ 2 
UJ 3 

WISDOM, ROMANY 
P&W 2 
P&W 3 
*UJ 1
*UJ 2
*UJ 3 
XFOR 106 
XFOR 109 
XFOR 115 

SPITFIRE/LADY JACQUELINE FALSWORTH CRICHTON 
 
MG:I 3 
MG:I 4 
*UJ 1
*UJ 2
*UJ 3 
X:HC 3 
A3 82 
A3 83 
A3 84

Last edited by Col_Fury on Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total. 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 01, 2007 2:17 am 
By Enda80

Baroness Blood conundrums: 
Her turning into a vampire diagetically takes place before Doc II#62's 
Montesi Formula casting. So did she rematerialize after the relaxing 
of the spell? 

The fbs in this Union Jack series actually conflict with the Official Handbook entry for Baron Blood. 

The Official Handbook Deluxe Edition, and the original 
stories, note that it was actually the local 
townspeople who set the Cromwell house onfire. Also, 
the DE stated that Doctor Cromwell had only one 
daughter-oops. Another Jubileee situation (Update 
'89's Jubilee history gave new information about her 
background that was ignored by subsequent writers.) 
http://www.marveldirectory.com/individu ... nblood.htm 

Also, the doctor's name was given as Charles Cromwell. It was also stated that Cromwell placed the skeleton in the Tower of London, not Baron Blood. 

However, if one accepts the idea from this series that Baron Blood slew one of the Cromwell daughters and placed the corpse in the Tower of London, then I should note it was stated in Cap#253 that the body in the crypt was dead for 10-12 years. This indicates when Baron 
Blood killed the Baroness' sister. Dracula was said to have ordered Cromwell to revive Baron Blood in Captain America#254, during a time when Dracula was in Britain, but I know of no fbs to the actual revivial of Baron Blood to place him bts.

			*	*	*

Sep 01, 2007 3:22 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Her turning into a vampire diagetically takes place before Doc II#62's Montesi Formula casting. So did she rematerialize after the relaxing of the spell? 
<<<

Apparently so. 


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
The Official Handbook Deluxe Edition, and the original stories, note that it was actually the local townspeople who set the Cromwell house onfire. 
<<<

Union Jack 2-FB says nothing of who set any fires, so no conflicts so far...


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Also, the DE stated that Doctor Cromwell had only one daughter-oops. 
<<<

Okay...


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Also, the doctor's name was given as Charles Cromwell. 
<<<

But in Union Jack 2-FB, the doctor's name is Jacob Cromwell. 


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
It was also stated that Cromwell placed the skeleton in the Tower of London, not Baron Blood. 
<<<

Union Jack 2-FB says nothing of skeletons or the Tower of London. Are we talking about the same thing? 


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
However, if one accepts the idea from this series that Baron Blood slew one of the Cromwell daughters and placed the corpse in the Tower of London, 
<<<

I don't see where "if one accepts the idea from this series..." is coming from. Union Jack 2-FB doesn't say anything about Baron Blood stashing bodies, but it does say that he killed Jacob Cromwell and one of his daughters, and turned the other daughter into a vampire. Jacob Cromwell, according to Union Jack 2-FB, was a village doctor. I'm pretty sure that London isn't described as a 'village.' 


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
then I should note it was stated in Cap#253 that the body in the crypt was dead for 10-12 years. This indicates when Baron Blood killed the Baroness' sister. 
<<<

So you're saying that Baron Blood had to turn her into a vampire sometime before he was put into his crypt. All right, that part I get. 


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Dracula was said to have ordered Cromwell to revive Baron Blood in Captain America#254, during a time when Dracula was in Britain, but I know of no fbs to the actual revivial of Baron Blood to place him bts. 
<<<

So a different Cromwell, Charles Cromwell, revived Baron Blood. Because Jacob Cromwell is dead, and has been for 10-12 years. Right?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 01, 2007 8:02 am 
By Enda80

"So you're saying that Baron Blood had to turn her into a vampire sometime before he was put into his crypt. All right, that part I get. " 

No, I wished to indicate that he had to vampirize her after he got freed from the crypt. 


Okay, to begin from the start: 

In Captain America I#253, Cap is informed that Baron Blood had at some point (in an as yet untold story) once again gotten staked some years ago and entombed in the Tower of London, with various crosses, garlic, etc. to keep him from reviving, and with the stake left in his heart. In that issue, Captain America is brought to the Tower of London, and upon seeing the corpse in the Tower of London in the space reserved for the Falsworths, realizes that the body in the tomb is actually a woman's. To demonstrate this, Captain America pulls the stake out of the heart of the corpse, which does not, repeat, does not revive as a vampire. A coroner's report reveals the corpse as dead for 10-12 years. 

In Captain American I#254, Baron Blood admits that Doctor Cromwell served Dracula, and during one of Dracula's (at least) relatively recent trips to Britain, Dracula had Cromwell remove Baron Blood's body from the Tower of London. 

I had thougth that there was at least a line of dialogue in the Union Jack mini-series that claims that the body in the Tower of London was actually that of one of Cromwell's daughters (the one who did not become the Baroness). So, I reasoned if it was one of Cromwell's daughters in the Tower of London, and as noted the coroner's report in Captain America I#253 stated that the body was dead for 10-12 years, that would mean that Baron Blood slew the true Doctor Cromwell and his daughter, and vampirezed the daughter who became the Baroness, 10-12 years ago. By extension, that would mean that Dracula's trip to Britain where he ordered Cromwell to liberate Falsworth's body from the Tower of London was also 10-12 years ago. 

The Official Handbook in Baron Blood's entry states that Baron Blood's body had been inert and staked in the Tower of London since the end of World War II (as I noted, this story has yet to be told, to my knowledge) until Dracula had Cromwell liberate Blood's body from the Tower of London. The Handbook also gives Cromwell the forename of Charles.

			*	*	*

Sep 01, 2007 11:49 am 
By jephyork
Director

I tried to read this discussion but my eyes glazed over at "diagetically". Who won? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Sep 01, 2007 12:22 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
I had thougth that there was at least a line of dialogue in the Union Jack mini-series that claims that the body in the Tower of London was actually that of one of Cromwell's daughters (the one who did not become the Baroness). So, I reasoned if it was one of Cromwell's daughters in the Tower of London, and as noted the coroner's report in Captain America I#253 stated that the body was dead for 10-12 years, that would mean that Baron Blood slew the true Doctor Cromwell and his daughter, and vampirezed the daughter who became the Baroness, 10-12 years ago. By extension, that would mean that Dracula's trip to Britain where he ordered Cromwell to liberate Falsworth's body from the Tower of London was also 10-12 years ago. 
<<<

So the only thing besides Baron Blood tying these two stories together is a man named Cromwell. Since Jacob Cromwell(a village doctor, 2 daughters, UJ 2-FB) was killed by Baron Blood, and Cromwell(London doctor, one daughter, CA 253) is still alive in the then current day, we can assume that these are two different characters. We can also assume that the stories aren't linked aside from Baron Blood being in both. UJ 2-FB would just be a random Baron Blood attack. 


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
The Official Handbook in Baron Blood's entry states that Baron Blood's body had been inert and staked in the Tower of London since the end of World War II (as I noted, this story has yet to be told, to my knowledge) 
<<<

I'm not aware of any such story, either. So, Baron Blood's attack in UJ 2-FB has no problem occuring sometime after WWII, and sometime before Baron Blood ends up staked and stashed somewhere prior to CA 253.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 01, 2007 12:39 pm 
By Enda80

"Cromwell(London doctor, one daughter, CA 253) is still alive in the then current day" 

No, Cromwell is actually dead. As revealed in Cap I#254, Baron Blood slew the real Dr. Cromwell and assumed his identity some time ago. Thus, "Dr. Cromwell" in the present in Cap#253-254 in the disguised Baron Blood. 

It seems to me that the Dr. Cromwell referenced in the Cap I#254 is the same one referred to in the UJ min-series, unless Dracula has a predeliction for recruiting British doctors named Cromwell. 

The official Handbook states that Baron Blood ordered Cromwell to move to the village near Falsworth Manor. A flashback to the fire that destroyed the Cromwell residence can be seen in Captain America I#253. 

"So, Baron Blood's attack in UJ 2-FB has no problem occuring sometime after WWII, and sometime before Baron Blood ends up staked and stashed somewhere prior to CA 253." 

I would suggest that progression of events would amount to 
before end of WWII: Baron Blood staked 
Baron Blood remains inert from the end of World War II till: 
Cromwell liberates his body from Tower of London 
Baron Blood slays and replaces Cromwell

			*	*	*

Sep 01, 2007 11:25 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
No, Cromwell is actually dead. As revealed in Cap I#254, Baron Blood slew the real Dr. Cromwell and assumed his identity some time ago. Thus, "Dr. Cromwell" in the present in Cap#253-254 in the disguised Baron Blood. 
<<<

Why didn't you say that earlier? It would have removed a lot of confusion. 


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
It seems to me that the Dr. Cromwell referenced in the Cap I#254 is the same one referred to in the UJ min-series
<<<

Now that I know that Cromwell is dead, and now that I've had a chance to dig out & read CA 253 & 254, I'd have to agree with you. 


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
The official Handbook states that Baron Blood ordered Cromwell to move to the village near Falsworth Manor. A flashback to the fire that destroyed the Cromwell residence can be seen in Captain America I#253. 
<<<

There is a FlashBack to a fire in CA 253. 

Re: the Handbook you mentioned in an earlier post: It gave the name Charles for Cromwell. Since Union Jack was published after that Handbook, I'll suggest that Jacob is his name, since it was given in a comic. The Handbook, in this case, would be working with incorrect or outdated information. 


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
I would suggest that progression of events would amount to 
before end of WWII: Baron Blood staked 
Baron Blood remains inert from the end of World War II till: 
Cromwell liberates his body from Tower of London 
Baron Blood slays and replaces Cromwell
<<<

Until it's nailed down by a comic, I would say that Baron Blood was staked 'some time ago,' and not tie it to WWII. Other than that, sure. 

So:

CROMWELL, DR. JACOB
CA 253-FB
UJ 2-FB


Jeph! wrote:
>>>
I tried to read this discussion but my eyes glazed over at "diagetically". Who won? 
<<<

Heh. As it turns out, both of us!

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 02, 2007 8:14 am 
By Enda80

CROMWELL, DR. JACOB 
UJ 2-FB 
CA 253-FB-BTS 


I may have this wrong, but I do not think that Cromwell was shown directly in that CA 253 fb. It was a shot of the house burning. In any event (I do not have the issue in front of me), that fb was narrated, as I recall, by the disguised Baron Blood, who had assumed Cromwell's identity, so the veracity is somewhat uncertain, but the fire did at least happen.

			*	*	*

Sep 02, 2007 12:25 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

The FlashBack showed a house on fire, with a man carrying a female body out of it.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 02, 2007 1:31 pm 
By Enda80

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
The FlashBack showed a house on fire, with a man carrying a female body out of it.
<<<

Well, that man would have to be Baron Blood (since he slew Doctor Cromwell; in any event, Doctor Cromwell did not survive past the conflagration), and the female body he drags would have to be either the (corpse of the) unnamed daughter who later got entombed in the Tower of London in place of Baron Blood, or it was the daughter who later became the Baroness. 

So, in other words, the female body in that fb could be the Baroness.

			*	*	*

Sep 02, 2007 5:08 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Well, that man would have to be Baron Blood (since he slew Doctor Cromwell; in any event, Doctor Cromwell did not survive past the conflagration)
<<<

Cromwell did not survive. That's why I suggested UJ 2-FB follow CA 253-FB. You're the one who switched them around. 


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
and the female body he drags would have to be either the (corpse of the) unnamed daughter who later got entombed in the Tower of London in place of Baron Blood, or it was the daughter who later became the Baroness. 
<<<

As I said earlier, he carried her out, not dragged. Who's to say if she was dead yet? Also, it could be either daughter, but it's not stated. 


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
So, in other words, the female body in that fb could be the Baroness.
<<<

Sure, it could be. Who knows?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 23, 2007 1:55 pm 
By Enda80

>>>
Until it's nailed down by a comic, I would say that Baron Blood was staked 'some time ago,' and not tie it to WWII. Other than that, sure. 
<<<

Actually, Baron Blood's brother notes in #253 (on page 137 of the recent reprint collection W&R), that Baron Blood's corpse was entombed in the Tower of London "since the war". So, this (the idea of Baron Blood as inert since 1945) was not an interpolation on the part of the Official Handbook. The least strict or aggresive interpretation would be to say he was active until the State Shinto Militarists surrendered. 

The flashback in Captain America I#253 to the fire at Cromwell's house (narrated by a policeman, not, repeat, not the disguised as Cromwell Baron Blood, so its veracity is less questionable) states that Cromwell ("a few years back when he was new to the village") arrived home to find his cottage on fire. It was claimed that his occured during a vampire scare, as "some claimed Dracula 'imself" was around.

			*	*	*

Thread 43

Subject: Fantastic Five v2 #1-5

Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:01 pm 
By michaelyuri

Fantastic Five v2 #1: The Final Doom! 
Writer: Tom DeFalco 
Pencils: Ron Lim 
Inker: Scott Koblish 

Characters Appearing: 
Doctor Doom (& FB) 
Doom/Kristoff 
Grim 
Human Torch 
Invisible Woman 
Mister Fantastic 
Ms. Fantastic 
Psilord 
Rad 
Silver Surfer (FB only) 
Sub-Mariner 
Super-Storm 
Terrax (FB only) 
Thing 
Ventura, Sharon 


Synopsis: 
1-5: Namor returns to an underwater cave to find that an empty prison cell. He is attacked from behind by his former prisoner, a disheveled Doctor Doom. 

6-8: Reed examines Ben and tells him that he is finally healing underneath his bionic armor. This will allow him to resume human form again. Johnny, feeling frustrated now that Reed has returned to the team, is thinking about forming his own team. 

9: Sharon Ventura arrives at FF headquarters to take her kids away/ 

10-11: Doom arrives at a hidden cave in Latveria where he rearmors himself and learns what has happened in the world in the years that he has been imprisoned. 

12-14: Sharon talks to Ben about not wanting her kids to grow up in FF headquarters. Meanwhile Alyce, Jake, Torus, and Kristoff are training with Franklin, who is frustrated by their inability to work as a team. 

15: Doom schemes to use his Chair of Power to rule the world. 

16: Johnny and Lyja talk about leaving the FF. 

17-22: Ben is walking in the park, depressed about his family life. He is attacked from behind by a cosmically-powered Doctor Doom. Doom caused Ben's bionic armor to engulf him in a metallic sphere and sends the sphere into a lake. Doom then flies off toward the FF building. 


Flashbacks: 
(15:3) Doom steals the Power Cosmic from the Silver Surfer. 

(15:4) Terrax was given the Power Cosmic by Doom. 


Continuity Notes: 
Pages 6-22 appear to occur in a single day, although it's possible that the Doom interludes (10-11, 15) are shown out of sequence. Pages 1-5 occur earlier, but it is unclear how much. 


------------------------------ 
Fantastic Five v2 #2: It's Clobberin' Time! 
Writer: Tom DeFalco 
Penciler: Ron Lim 
Inks: Scott Koblish 


Characters Appearing: 
Doctor Doom 
Doom 
Grim 
Grimm, Daniel (FB only) 
Human Torch (& FB) 
Invisible Woman (& FB) 
Mister Fantastic (& FB) 
Ms. Fantastic (& FB) 
Psilord (& FB) 
Rad 
Super-Storm 
Terrax (FB only) 
Thing (& FB) 
Ventura, Sharon 


Synopsis: 
1: Recap page 

2-5: Doom bursts into Reed's lab and battles Reed and Sue, defeating them both. Franklin joins the fight against Doom. Sharon, Alyce, and Jake hear the noise and come running. 

6-7: Ben is trying to fight his way out of the metal sphere, and is reminded of his Yancy Street gang initiation when he refused to give up. 

8-10: Kristoff arrives in the lab to find Doom holding everyone else hostage. Doom calls Kristoff a traitor and immobilizes his armor. Reed breaks free and fights Doom. Jake breaks free, but is sent flying out of the building by Doom. 

11: Johnny, Lyja, and Torus are walking down the sidewalk when they see Jake go flying past. Lyja and Torus go to rescue him and Johnny heads for the FF building. 

12-13: Ben is still trying to escape the metal sphere. He remembers the FF's rocket flight that turned him into the Thing. 

14-15: Doom has subdued his captives again, when Johnny bursts in and attacks him. Reed instructs Johnny to go warn the Avengers, and Johnny flies off. Reed reveals that this was a diversion to draw Doom away and heads to the armory. Outside, Doom pursues Johnny. 

16-18: Ben is still trying to escape. He remembers a battle between the FF and Terrax. Reed used a weapon to expel Terrax from the universe, but Ben was caught in the resulting explosion. He woke up later wearing the bionic armor. 

19-20: Reed is in his armory reaching for the same weapon he used against Terrax, when Doom bursts in. Doom captures Reed, crushing him into a tiny ball. 

21-22: Ben finally breaks free and climbs out of the lake. His armor is now gone and his rocky exterior is missing where it used to be. He uses a branch as a crutch. 


Flashbacks: 
(6:4-7:4) Ben's Yancy Street gang initiation. 

(12:2-13:4) FF's original rocket flight. 

(16:2-18:4) FF's battle with Terrax. Ben wakes up with bionic armor. 


Continuity Notes: 
This entire issue occurs in an hour or so, immediately following FFIVE2 1. 


------------------------------ 
Fantastic Five v2 #3: Hahahahahaha! 
Writer: Tom DeFalco 
Penciler: Ron Lim 
Inks: Scott Koblish 


Characters Appearing: 
Doctor Doom 
Doom 
Grim 
Human Torch 
Invisible Woman 
Mister Fantastic 
Ms. Fantastic 
Psilord 
Rad 
Super-storm 
Thing 
Ventura Sharon 

Synopsis: 
1: Ben shows up at a construction site and asks for some cement to patch himself up. 

2: Recap page. 

3-4: Doom admires Reed's armory and gloats over his capture of Reed, Johnny, and Kristoff. 

5-6: Sue, Alyce, Franklin, and Sharon head for the hangar bay. They are met by Jake, Lyja, and Torus. 

7-10: Ben arrives in the armory and attacks Doom. They battle. Ben knocks Doom away through a wall. 

11-14: Reed, Johnny, and Kristoff break free. Doom bursts back in and battles them. They lead him to the hangar bay, and Doom battles everyone. 

15-16: Reed traps Doom in a stasis ray, only to learn that it is actually a Doombot. Doom has created an army of cosmically-powered Doombots. 

17-19: The army of Doombots sever the entire island of Manhattan and lift it into the air. 

20-22: Doom gives Reed a choice: Either Manhattan will be hurled into the sun, or the FF children will be exiled into space. Reed chooses to have the children sent into space. 

Continuity Notes: 
Follows immediately after FFIVE2 2. The entire issue takes maybe a few hours. It was evening at the beginning of the issue, but when Manhattan is lifted it appears to be daytime, so probably early the following morning. 


------------------------------ 
Fantastic Five v2 #4: World Entire! 
Writer: Tom DeFalco 
Penciler: Ron Lim 
Inks: Scott Koblish 


Characters Appearing: 
American Dream 
Bluestreak 
Bridge, President G. W. 
Doctor Doom 
Doom/Kristoff 
Grim 
Human Torch 
Invisible Woman 
J2 
Mainframe 
Mister Fantastic 
Ms. Fantastic 
Psilord 
Rad 
Sabreclaw 
Stinger 
Sub-Mariner 
Super-storm 
Thena 
Thing 
Thunderstrike 
Ventura, Sharon 

Synopsis: 
1: Recap page 

2-3: Doom drives Shield forces out of Latveria. 

4-5: Doom gloats over his prisoners, Reed Richards and Namor. 

6: Franklin, Torus, Alyce, & Jake are aboard an orbiting ship being guarded by a cosmically-powered Doombot. 

7-9: Doom broadcasts a message worldwide informing the world that he has taken over. To prove his power, he blows up the UN building in New York. Doombots are stationed around major world capitals. 

10-11: China launches a nuclear strike against Latveria. A Doombot intercepts the missiles and then Doom orders them to lay waste to the Chinese government. 

12-14: Franklin reveals his plan to augment his psi-powers by deliberately exposing himself to cosmic rays. After Jake and Torus remove the shielding from a portion of the ship, Franklin shuts himself in and is bombarded by cosmic rays. 

15-16: Doom gloats over his prisoners, who include Reed, Sue, Johnny, Ben, Lyja, Sharon, and Kristoff. 

17-19: Jake, Alyce, and Torus find Franklin lying on the floor, glowing. Franklin uses his newly strengthened powers to psychically destroy the Doombot guarding their ship. 

20-22: President Bridge receives a report that the Doombots are nearly indestructible, and that the Avengers are currently battling one, but don't seem likely to win. Bridge conveys to Doom the surrender of the world's governments. A horribly stretched out Reed Richards tells Doom that he will never be satisfied until he has humbled Reed. 


Continuity Notes: 
This issue all occurs in a relatively short time frame, probably a single day. Most likely the same day that the previous issue concluded. The Avengers lineup places this series after the conclusion of the Avengers Next mini. 


------------------------------ 
Fantastic Five v2 #5: The Fantastic Five! 
Writer: Tom DeFalco 
Penciler: Ron Lim 
Inks: Scott Koblish 


Characters Appearing: 
Bridge, G.W. 
Doctor Doom 
Doom/Kristoff 
Grim 
Human Torch 
Invisible Woman 
Iron Man 
J2 (FB only) 
Mainframe 
Mister Fantastic 
Ms. Fantastic 
Psilord 
Rad 
Sub-Mariner 
Super-Storm 
Thing 
Ventura, Sharon 
Vision 
Warp (FB only) 


Synopsis: 
1: Recap page 

2-3: Namor tries to convince Doom to take up Reed's challenge. 

4-5: Franklin, Alyce, Jake, and Torus have landed in Latveria and are fighting their way toward the castle. 

6: President Bridge meets with Tony Stark, Vision, and Mainframe to discuss whether Doom's robots can be stopped. Mainframe reveals that the Avengers have defeated one Doombot. 

7-10: Doom decides to take Reed up on his challenge. The rest of the prisoners take the opportunity to escape. Kristoff believes that Doom must have a failsafe device to control the cosmic Doombots, so they set out to find it. 

11-13: Doom reveals his Infinity Device, which will determine who has greater brain power and banish the loser to the Crossroads of Infinity. Meanwhile, the others make their way deeper into the castle. One of Doom's robots summons the cosmic Doombots back to Latveria. 

14-16: Franklin & company see the Doombots fly overhead toward the castle. Reed and Doom battle mentally. The Doombots burst in and Sue holds them off with a forcefield while Kristoff tries to activate the failsafe device. 

17-19: Reed and Doom continue their mental battle. Meanwhile in Washington, Bridge learns that all of the Doombots have collapsed. Reed and Doom's battle ends with an explosion. 

20: Everybody else enters to find Reed and Doom as lifeless, catatonic shells. Namor informs them of the contest. They speculate that Reed's mind may eventually be able to find its way back to his body. 

21-23: A few weeks later, Franklin speaks to Sue and Kristoff who have stayed in Latveria to clean up and take care of Reed. Franklin now wears a metal mask to hide his glowing skull-like face. It's revealed that Alyce has gone home with Sharon. The New Fantastic Five lineup is revealed as Ben, Johnny, Lyja, Franklin, & Jake. 


Flashbacks: 
(6:3) Warp and J2 celebrate over the smashed body of a Doombot. 


Continuity Notes: 
Except for the last three pages, this issue occurs in a single day, continuing immediately from the end of the previous issue. The only character who overlaps at all with recent issues of Amazing Spider-Girl is President Bridge who appeared briefly in the Carnage arc. I would place the FFIVE2 series after the Carnage arc, since the events of this series haven't been referenced in any way in Spider-Girl. 


------------------------------ 

Chronology entries: 
FFIVE2 = Fantastic Five, vol. 2 (2007) 


American Dream/Shannon Carter 
. . . 
AVN 5 
*FFIVE2 4 

Bluestreak 
. . . 
AVN 5 
*FFIVE2 4 

Bridge, President G. W. 
. . . 
ASG 10 
*FFIVE2 4 
*FFIVE2 5 

Doctor Doom 
*FFIVE2 1-FB (15:3) 
FFIVE 5-FB (2:3) 
AN 5-FB (7:5) 
*FFIVE2 1 
*FFIVE2 2 
*FFIVE2 3 
*FFIVE2 4 
*FFIVE2 5 

Doom/Kristoff Vernard 
. . . 
LPS 3 
*FFIVE2 1 
*FFIVE2 2 
*FFIVE2 3 
*FFIVE2 4 
*FFIVE2 5 

*Grim/Jacob "Jake" Grimm <- added nickname 
. . . 
SG 88 
*FFIVE2 1 
*FFIVE2 2 
*FFIVE2 3 
*FFIVE2 4 
*FFIVE2 5 

*Grimm, Daniel 
*FFIVE2 2-FB (6:4-7:4) 

Human Torch/Johnny Storm 
*FFIVE2 2-FB (12:2-13:4) 
*FFIVE 1-FB (6:5-8:1) 
SG 11 
FFIVE 1-FB (8:2-8:4) 
SG 7/2-FB (4:2-4:3) 
*FFIVE2 2-FB (16:2-18:4) 
FFIVE 4-FB (4:3-14:1) 
. . . 
AVN 5-BTS 
*FFIVE2 1 
*FFIVE2 2 
*FFIVE2 3 
*FFIVE2 4 
*FFIVE2 5 

Invisible Woman/Susan Storm Richards 
*FFIVE2 2-FB (12:2-13:4) 
*FFIVE 1-FB (6:5-8) 
*FFIVE2 2-FB (16:2-18:4) 
FFIVE 4-FB (4:3-14:2) 
. . . 
AVN 5-BTS 
*FFIVE2 1 
*FFIVE2 2 
*FFIVE2 3 
*FFIVE2 4 
*FFIVE2 5 

Iron Man/Tony Stark 
. . . 
SG 95 
*FFIVE2 5 

J2/Zane Yama/Zane Marko 
. . . 
AVN 5 
*FFIVE2 4 
*FFIVE2 5-FB (6:3) 

Mainframe 
. . . 
AVN 5 
*FFIVE2 4 
*FFIVE2 5 

Mister Fantastic/Reed Richards/Big Brain 
*FFIVE2 2-FB (12:2-13:4) 
*FFIVE 1-FB (6:5-8) 
SG 7/2-FB (4:3-4:4) 
*FFIVE2 2-FB (16:2-18:4) 
FFIVE 4-FB (4:3-14:2) 
. . . 
AVN 4 
*FFIVE2 1 
*FFIVE2 2 
*FFIVE2 3 
*FFIVE2 4 
*FFIVE2 5 

Ms. Fantastic/Lyja Storm 
FFIVE 1-FB (8:4) 
*FFIVE2 2-FB (16:2-18:4) 
FFIVE 4-FB (4:3-6) 
FFIVE 1-FB (9:3) 
. . . 
AVN 4 
*FFIVE2 1 
*FFIVE2 2 
*FFIVE2 3 
*FFIVE2 4 
*FFIVE2 5 

Psilord/Franklin Richards 
FFIVE 1-FB (8:3) 
*FFIVE2 2-FB (16:2-18:4) 
FFIVE 4-FB (4:3-14:1) 
. . . 
AVN 4 
*FFIVE2 1 
*FFIVE2 2 
*FFIVE2 3 
*FFIVE2 4 
*FFIVE2 5 

Rad/Alyce Grimm 
. . . 
SG 88 
*FFIVE2 1 
*FFIVE2 2 
*FFIVE2 3 
*FFIVE2 4 
*FFIVE2 5 

*Sabreclaw/Hudson Logan <- added last name 
. . . 
AVN 5 
*FFIVE2 4 

Silver Surfer/Norrin Radd 
*FFIVE2 1-FB (15:3) 
LPS 4 
LPS 5 

Stinger/Cassie Lang 
. . . 
AVN 5 
*FFIVE2 4 

Sub-Mariner/Namor 
. . . 
LHS 5 
*FFIVE2 1 
*FFIVE2 4 
*FFIVE2 5 

Super-Storm/Torus Storm 
. . . 
SG 88 
*FFIVE2 1 
*FFIVE2 2 
*FFIVE2 3 
*FFIVE2 4 
*FFIVE2 5 

*Terrax 
*FFIVE2 1-FB (15:4) 
*FFIVE2 2-FB (16:2-18:4) 

Thena 
. . . 
AVN 5 
*FFIVE2 4 

Thing/Benjamin Jacob Grimm 
*FFIVE2 2-FB (6:4-7:4, 12:2-13:4) 
*FFIVE 1-FB (6:5-8) 
*FFIVE2 2-FB (16:2-18:4) 
FFIVE 4-FB (4:3-14:1) 
. . . 
AVN 5-BTS 
*FFIVE2 1 
*FFIVE2 2 
*FFIVE2 3 
*FFIVE2 4 
*FFIVE2 5 

Thunderstrike/Kevin Masterson 
. . . 
AVN 5 
*FFIVE2 4 

Ventura, Sharon 
FFIVE 4-FB (6:1-6:2) 
FFIVE 3 
*FFIVE2 1 
*FFIVE2 2 
*FFIVE2 3 
*FFIVE2 4 
*FFIVE2 5 

Vision 
. . . 
LPS 4 
*FFIVE2 5 

Warp 
. . . 
AVN 5 
*FFIVE2 5-FB (6:3) 

------------------------------ 

-Mike

			*	*	*

Thread 44

Subject: Doom 2099 #40-43, #25

Sep 25, 2007 6:21 pm 
By michaelyuri

In a story arc running from D2099 40-42, continuing into FF 413, and concluding in D2099 43, Doom 2099 travels back in time to 1996 in an attempt to prevent the future destruction of Latveria. 

D2099 40 

Doom 2099 arrives in 1996 and confronts, and eventually defeats, his past self. Meanwhile, Daredevil & Namor each independently uncover parts of Doom 2099's bizarre plans which involve infecting people with crab venom. Doctor Strange feels the disruption of the time-stream being caused by Doom 2099. 

D2099 41 

Daredevil & Namor keep investigating Doom 2099's scheme. It leads them both to an ocean platform where the crab venom is being stored. Doom 2099 battles them both and Namor eventually detonates the platform. Daredevil leaves a clue on Ben Urich's desk, which points to Alistair Chemical (the predecessor to 2099's Alchemax), which is involved in Doom 2099's scheme. Namor confronts Doom-616 and learns that he wasn't responsible. 

D2099 42 

Doom 2099 conducts experiments with crab venom. Daredevil talks with Urich about Doom 2099's scheme. Doctor Strange summons Ben Grimm to help stop Doom 2099. Ben and Daredevil both show up at Doom 2099's secret lab. They fight and the lab explodes. Doom-616 and Namor scheme to capture Doom 2099. 

FF 413 

Doom 2099 invades FF headquarters to get information from Reed's computers. Ben arrives home to warn the FF, and they and the visiting Inhumans battle Doom 2099. Doom 2099 escapes only to be captured by Namor and Doom-616. 

D2099 43 

Namor and Doom-616 have Doom 2099 captive. Doom 2099 manages to escape and returns to 2099. 


Doom, Namor, and the Thing are easy to place, since these issues occur immediately before and after FF 413: 

Doctor Doom 
. . . 
CA 453 
*D2099 40 
*D2099 41 
*D2099 42 
FF 413 
*D2099 43 
FF 416 
. . . 

Sub-Mariner/Namor Mackenzie 
. . . 
FF 412 
*D2099 40 
*D2099 41 
*D2099 42 
FF 413 
*D2099 43 
A 400 
. . . 

Thing/Benjamin J. Grimm 
. . . 
FF 412 
*D2099 42 
FF 413 
FF 414 
. . . 


I don't know enough about the chronologies of Daredevil, Strange, or Ben Urich to place them. 

Daredevil/Matt Michael Murdock 
. . . 
*D2099 40 
*D2099 41 
*D2099 42 
. . . 

Doctor Strange II/Doctor Stephen Strange 
. . . 
*D2099 40 
*D2099 42 
. . . 

Urich, Ben 
. . . 
*D2099 41 
*D2099 42 
. . . 


D2099 25 contained a time travel sequence. In it, Doom 2099 and an imposter battle each other while jumping through time. In one scene they arrive in Latveria circa 1900. A young Werner Von Doom (~10 years old) watches the two men battle. 

Von Doom, Werner 
*D2099 25 
DSDDGN-FB 
FF@ 2-FB 

In another scene, they appear inside Reed's lab in the 20th century Baxter Building. Reed is attempting to permanently transform Ben back to human form. Ben is sitting in a throne-like seat against one wall, while Reed is at the far side of the room pointing some sort of high-tech cannon at him. I don't know whether this is entirely new, or represents a scene that has already been shown in an earlier book. If it's new, there doesn't seem to be a lot to go on to place it. 

Mister Fantastic/Reed Richards 
. . . 
*D2099 25 
. . . 

Thing/Benjamin J. Grimm 
. . . 
*D2099 25 
. . . 


The only other 2099 book containing appearances by 616 characters is Spider-Man 2099 Meets Spider-Man. Another poster has already volunteered to analyze that book here: 
http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... c&start=15 

------------ 

-Mike

			*	*	*

Sep 26, 2007 12:40 am 
By dimadick

"I don't know enough about the chronologies of Daredevil, Strange, or Ben Urich to place them. " 

Going by publication dates: 

1)Fantastic Four #412 had a publication date of May, 1996. #413 had June, 1996. 

2) The equivalent Daredevil issues were #352 and #353. The former features 
a one-shot story by Ben Raab and the second begins the Karl Kesel run which would last until October, 1996. 

Manwithoutfear.com features summaries for both issues. See: http://www.manwithoutfear.com/issuesinfo.cgi?issue=352 

According to them the key events of #352 is Daredevil saving Franklin "Foggy" Nelson from Murderworld under the new administration of Mastermind/Martinique Jason. He takes the opportunity to try to reconcile with Foggy but Mr. Nelson seemingly turns him down. 

#353, features Matt Murdock announcing himself being very much alive to the public and claiming to have been hiding from the Kingpin throughout his long-time absence. He starts running the lawyer office with Nelson again and they both get proposals for partnership with high-profile lawyer: Rosalind Sharpe. Later revealed to be the estranged biological mother of Foggy. 

Any chance the crossover with Doom 2099 starts before Daredevil reclaims the Matt Murdock identity? 

3) The equivalent Dr. Strange issues were "Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme" #89 and #90, featuring both the end of a run by Jean Marc DeMatteis and the cancelation of the title. 

#89, has Victoria Montesi abducted from the Sanctum by the demon Midwife in preparation for the birth of an eartly incarnation of Chthon. #90 features the big battle with Chthon and Strange prevents his rebirth. 

The MCP has postulated some time passing between the two issues. Enough to contain the events of the DC vs Marvel series and an appearance in "Over the Edge" #2 where he faces a series of attempted and succesful assassinations against magic users by the Silver Dagger. 

Any time for another crossover there before Victoria Montesi goes to labor? 

4) Currently the MCP has no Ben Urich appearances places between his "May, 1996" appearance in Green Goblin #8 and "June, 1996" appearance in Spider-Man #69. 

Nothing particularly life-changing for Ben in either of the two issues. Changes for the 2099 crossover to fit in between them?

			*	*	*

Sep 26, 2007 4:52 am 
By michaelyuri
Director

Those placements sound fine to me. The amount of time that passes in Doom 2099 #40-42 isn't clear, but it could be as little as a day and a half, so it doesn't require too much space to be squeezed in. 

dimadick wrote:
>>>
Any chance the crossover with Doom 2099 starts before Daredevil reclaims the Matt Murdock identity?
<<<

Daredevil is never shown acting as Matt Murdock in the crossover. The only time that he's out of costume he's in disguise as a dock worker.

			*	*	*

Thread 45

Subject: Tomb of Dracula (Vol 3/Epic) #1-4

Aug 20, 2007 3:50 am 
By JLH

------------------------------------ 
THE TOMB OF DRACULA VOL 3 #1 [1991] 
"Day of Blood! Night of Redemption! Book 1" 
Writer: Marv Wolfman 
Penciler: Gene Colan 
Inker: Al Williamson 

Cast: 
DRACULA/VLAD TEPES 
DRAKE, FRANKLIN (also in FB and BTS in another FB) 
VAN HELSING, RACHEL (also in FB) 
MCKENNA-DRAKE, MARLENE (also in FB) 
SMIRNOFF, DR. GREGOR (also in FBs) 
HAROLD, HAROLD H. (FB only) 

Other characters: 
Asmodeus (BTS. Demon ruler of hell who restores Dracula's remains to the castle ruins) 
Lila 
Glass, Rebecca "Becky" (dies) 
Anna (Smirnoff's nurse) 
Jack (orderly) 


Summary: So, some demon called Asmodeus takes back over Hell after a decade away, and proceeds to track down Count Dracula's dead body just to place back where it was before he left. Why? Just so this story can be in continuity! 

In Maryland, college student Becky does some sort of ritual involving fire and blood before her girlfriend, Lila. Their professor had shown them how to do this cleansing ritual as what they believed to be a joke. Becky does it now again despite Lila's protests, and wouldn't ya know, this opens a gateway to Hell which consumes Becky's body in a burst of flames! 

Elsewhere, Dracula's spirit haunts Marlene McKenna, wife of Vlad's decendant, Frank Drake. Her unnatural dreams and their effects on her body are being monitored by Dr. Gregor Smirnoff, professor at that college I just mentioned that never gets named. Anyway, Marlene is trying to keep these realistic dreams a secret from her husband, to shield him from the weirdness he's fought so hard to avoid these past few years. Well, while driving home from this study, Marlene has waking visions of the spirits of Dracula and Rachel Van Helsing, which cause her to wreck. Soon at the hospital, Frank rushes to her bedside, and luckily, she's fine aside from some bruises. While driving her home, Frank is finally told by Marlene of her dreams of Dracula, which he blames on himself for telling her about his past. She assures him Dr Smirnoff, who helped him through his own personal demons, is helping her as well. When Marlene flips through an old photo diary of her husband's, Frank talks about how his old partners in vampire hunting lived for death, and he recaps how he met them, and dwells on Rachel Van Helsing and how once Drac was gone she became someone worse. He doesn't regret knowing her, since she kept him alive, and he doesn't regret getting away from her before she could drag him down with her. Now he's got Marlene, and is happier than he'd ever been before. 

Some students are again doing that whole ritual, burning something of their's, then shedding blood into the fire, and getting orgasmic as a result of contacting demons or something. 

Some time after her accident, Marlene and Frank attend a party. Dr Smirnoff discusses with Frank how Marlene is trying to believe in things she didn't find rational before, just because she loves him. A student hurries over and informs the professor of the other kids' ritual, and he heads off to deal with what they've done. Marlene gets all queazy again, and Frank takes her home. She has more nightmares about Dracula, and like before, this involves her drinking of his blood. When she awakens in a scream, begging him to take her, Frank comforts his wife and vows to get her away from there as soon as possible. 

Elsewhere, Smirnoff is informed by Lila of Becky's death, and he decides to cover the details of it up. Why? Well, it proves the stuff he's been teaching the students is finally working, and the time he's been waiting for has arrived. He heads to the Drakes' place, but finds they've already left town. Where'd they go? Why, London, of course, so Frank can revisit the bridge site where he first met Rachel. He talks about not wanting to lose Marlene like he lost her. Well, later that night, Marly has some more nightmares, and this time is compelled to take a lady shick and cut her forehead until she resembles Rachel even more. Rachel's evil spirit even appears before her, and seems to take over Marlene. Frank argues with her repeatedly, and then Smirnoff shows up, knocks out Frank, and takes the Rachel-possessed Marlene with him to Transylvania. Once Frank awakens, he follows them and arrives at Castle Dracula just as Smirnoff and some hired goons dig up Vlad's body from the ruins. Despite his best attempts to stop him, Smirnoff removes the silver wheelchair spoke from Drac's chest. Frank tries to put it back in, but it's too late, Count Dracula is restored, rats and maggots and all. 



Flashbacks: 1) Dracula shows Marlene his version of events of the epic final battle with Quincy Harker in TOD 70. Instead of Harker felling his enemy with his wheelchair spoke and then stabbing him with a silver dagger, just before the wheelchair exploded, taking down the castle around them, we get this where Drac isn't bothered by the spoke, yanks it out and stabs Quincy to death with it. No explosion, and Drac remains holding the spoke. Later, we get this continued, with Frank and Rachel rushing up to the scene, then Dracula turning Rachel into a vampire right then and there. Clearly, this all is just part of the brainwashing Marlene is being put through, and does not reflect reality (nor does it synch up with how things were in the original issues. Even if you want to think the first part was true, that Drac brutally killed Harker before the explosion, the fact that in both this issue, and in TOD2 1, Drac's body has the wheelchair spoke through the heart, means he never pulled it out himself in the first place. 

2) Years ago, we see Frank Drake getting help from Dr Smirnoff after Rachel died. Marlene was another patient of his sleep studies, one with latent psychic and empathic power of greant strength. He introduced the two of them, and within a year, they were married, which we get to see briefly. 

3) Prior to that, we see Dr Smirnoff meeting Harold H. Harold and learning from him where Rachel Van Helsing was. He found her drunk, an alcoholic alone in a bar. After seducing the desperate woman, he used her for all the information about Dracula she knew, including his final resting place. This was "two years" prior to Rachel's death by Drac (there's a one panel of how he imagines she died, attacked by numerous vamps, which doesn't match how it happened). We then get Smirnoff manipulating Frank's doctor, so as to get him as his own patient, to further get closer to finding Dracula. 

There's also a remembrance shot of Quincy killing Drac (for reals!), and another of Frank getting pulled off the bridge ledge by Taj and Rachel. But nothing new there. 


Continuity notes: Several pictures of Frank with Quincy Harker, Taj, Blade, and Rachel Van Helsing, from during the TOD era, are shown, though none are to any particularly placeable event. 

Smirnoff mentions the vampire vanished for several years "as if they had simply ceased to be". This is the only even hint at the Montesi Formula in the whole storyline (though next issue, Drac remarks about how his vamp slaves are all dead). 


Goofs: I wonder if Marv merely forgot so many specifics about where he'd left off, or if it was intentionally an attempt to retcon out certain aspects of the way TOD ended. 

Frank claims he buried Rachel, despite the fact she was staked by Wolverine and was turned to basically dust. 

Why doesn't Rachel recognize Smirnoff when she takes over Marlene? They were lovers! 

Though I can buy Asmodeus restoring Drac's body to where it was at the end of TOD 70, why did he restore his flesh, as well? When Drac was revived the last time, in TOD2 1, he was a skeleton. 


------------------------------------ 
THE TOMB OF DRACULA VOL 3 #2 [1991] 
"Day of Blood! Night of Redemption! Book 2" 
Writer: Marv Wolfman 
Penciler: Gene Colan 
Inker: Al Williamson 

Cast: 
DRACULA/VLAD TEPES
DRAKE, FRANKLIN
BLADE/ERIC BROOKS 
VAN HELSING, RACHEL (OP) 
MCKENNA-DRAKE, MARLENE
SMIRNOFF, DR. GREGOR 

Other characters: 
Asmodeus (BTS. His loins are touched.) 
Jerry (cop. Dies) 
Lila 
Wyatt Anderson and General Grant (party guests) 


Summary: So, Dracula is back-ula. He's confused by how much time has passed, and by the changes in the world that he can sense. He spots Marlene, and realizes she's Frank's wife, and gets especially creepy in planning to drain her, or just to knock her up and cut out the baby later on. Frank threatens him with the spoke, but finally just collapses, giving up and begging for his ancestor to end his life rather than let him suffer everything again. But it's when Drac suggests making him his slave and forcing him to slay his wife like she's Rachel, that causes Frank to snap back to confidence, continuing to assert she's not Rachel. He stabs Drac with the spoke, but misses the heart, which gives Vlad more fodder to insult his relative. He's still unable to get it out, leaving Smirnoff to do it for him, and ushering the Count away to America instead of wasting time dueling with Drake there. To keep his old foe busy, Drac summons up some rats, wolves, zombies and the like. Frank grabs Marlene and makes a narrow escape. 

Once back in Maryland, Frank has enlisted the help of his old partner, Blade. They break into Smirnoff's place and look for clues, though Blade's violent methods worry the weak-willed Drake. Blade, living up to his short-fused temper that broke up their detective agency, trashes the place looking for some information, and even beats down Frank when he complains. All this excitement does alert the cops as he worried, though at least they left the bad doctor a pretty clear message that anyone who sides with Drac is going down. In Blade's apartment, Marlene is resting restlessly, as Dracula calls to her through her Rachel-controlled thoughts, and has Rachel pretend to still be Marlene in an effort to be a sleeper agent to take Frank by surprise. As for Drac, he and Smirnoff are at one of the Count's secret estates in Virginia. He has Smirnoff get him books and information concerning all the changes in the past decade, and sets off to Washington, DC, to feed. He goes to a strip club, rips the head-flesh off a cop by merely yanking on his scalp. Drac then feasts on a rare drug-free stripper, who manages to break away before dying, and flees to the dressing room, demanding to know why nobody helped her. Drac goes mist and pops up in there, and talks about how mankind is the same as always, and seeing they don't deserve to join him in immortality, he kills all the strippers. 

Back at Blade's, despite protests, Frank buys into Marlene's claims that she's herself again, that when Drac was reborn he let his hold on her go. Blade doesn't buy it. At the university in Georgetown, Smirnoff introduces Dracula to Lila, who whines about the death of Becky some more. Seems Lila is psychic, also. Anyway, Drac finally demands to know why Smirnoff brought him back. The doctor has created a psychic reservoir, connected to all of the cults he's founded while on lecture tours across the country. He gives the college students answers in exchange for their souls. Seems Smirnoff learned about the power of the soul while in Siberia or something, and created the cult of "The Belonging" in an effort to get his student followers to do these rituals and give him access to their souls. Using this reservoir of power, he was able to summon Rachel Van Helsing's undead spirit and implant it into Marlene, all to help him find Drac and give him this source of immense power. Why? Because in his many experiments, exploring portals to other realities, Smirnoff has had his own soul destroyed and his bare flesh is actually translucent. He's soon to die, and wants Drac to turn him into a vampire before that, so he can be immortal. Dracula scoffs, since he doesn't need any more sources of power, he's already got enough of his own. He swoops down, feasts on a student, and offers the Doctor the corpse to feast on before he can become more like him. Anyway, elsewhere, in a lab of some kind, an albino woman with a Hatian accent named Katinka, aids Blade in showing Frank that Marlene is still possessed by Rachel, by putting a mixture of herbs and roots into her eyes. It works, ruining Marlene's attempt to trick them. 

At the college the next night, Smirnoff throws another party and tries to introduced Drac to some important people. The ladies are all over the Count, though he has no time for love, Dr Jones. One lady comes on too strong and he flings her out the window, over a cliff, and smashes her skull on the rocks below. Back in Virginia, Blade and Frank track down Dracula's new home, and set it ablaze, starting with his coffin. The Count becomes aware of this, and departs the party, despite Smirnoff's wishes. Annoyed by the fact Smirnoff hasn't gotten him the information he needed to get better accustomed to the current times, when the Doctor again asks him to kill him, Drac does so. He rips the translucent man's head off and tosses it aside, not bothering to give him immortality since he no longer needs him anymore. He's made all the contacts he needs. Elsewhere, Blade reveals to Frank his next plan, which will involve using Marlene as bait. 


Continuity notes: Drac refers to his other son, Janus. 

Blade mentions the detective agency he and Frank used to have, and how it ended when Frank called him crazy. This event was never shown, nor is it shown here. 


Goofs: It seems Asmodeus erased everything from TOD2 1 onward to DRSTR2 62 from Drac's brain, as his first comments when being revived are about Quincy Harker. 

Odd that no mention of Hannibal King is ever made during this series. Wouldn't Frank try to get as much help as possible, which would include his OTHER partner? 


------------------------------------ 
THE TOMB OF DRACULA VOL 3 #3 [1991] 
"Day of Blood! Night of Redemption! Book 3" 
Writer: Marv Wolfman 
Penciler: Gene Colan 
Inker: Al Williamson 

Cast: 
DRACULA/VLAD TEPES
DRAKE, FRANKLIN
BLADE/ERIC BROOKS 
VAN HELSING, RACHEL (OP) 
MCKENNA-DRAKE, MARLENE
KATINKA 


Other characters: 
Bernie, Ron & Lenny (Ron dies) 
Lila 
Beth (another student) 


Summary: Count Dracula is walking along one night in Georgetown, when a trio of punks give him grief. He grabs one of them, named Ron, by the face and begins to crush his skull. Well, between his pals and the crowd now being alerted to the crime, Drac's got quite an audience lined up to stop him. So he flees, smashing Ron's head against the ground repeatedly as he rushes off. He tosses the dead boy's body aside when encountering the police. Once Bernie and Lenny find their friend's corpse in such a rotten state, Drac grabs it back and when the two boys pull knives on him, he picks up a pointed fence and flings it at them. While feasting on some of Ron's blood in an alley, more people appear and try to stop him, so he turns into a wolf and attacks, causing a car accident. This incident makes the news, which gets watched by Blade, Frank, and Katinka. They note how this isn't Drac's usualy behavior, but Katinka figures a guy so old and so used to older eras is likely just in a kind of culture shock. Back in the old days, he could walk around unnoticed, but now, everyone knows him, while so much has changed, and he's scared by these things which he himself doesn't know. Marlene's tied to the bed, still controlled by Rachel's spirit, and Frank whines some more about her condition, while Blade is made to seem harsh and unfeeling in contrast for not crying him a friggin river. 

Back at the college, Lila is still moping about the loss of her lover. Dracula mists in and secudes her, using his powers of persuasion and whatever wiles he has. She drinks of his blood, and that pretty much seals it, as they then get it on in one of Colan's trademark bleed-panel collage pages. The next day, Lila is no longer hiding in her room, but she's still ignoring her fellow students. She's helping Drac, sneaking into Smirnoff's office and getting all of his notes. Back at Katinka's lab, the albino has Blade hold down Marlene while she attempts to give her a transfusion in a sort of exorcism of Rachel's spirit. During the process, Marlene lashes out and begins to escape, but Blade snaps and proceeds to beat her into submission, until Frank stops him by showing some guts of his own, which impresses Blade. With Marlene knocked out, they try again. Back at the college dorm, Lila returns to her room, where Drac is currently sleeping in his coffin. She gets a little ahead of herself, strips down and climbs atop his sleeping body for a little lovemaking, only to have him awake and get considerably angry. He's also confused by the CD-Rom she brought with Smirnoff's notes, though she teaches him how to surf the web, and he starts posting on webs using the address of "hardonforharker@georgetown.edu". I'm making that part up, but he does reach Smirnoff's files on her green-screened dinosaur of a comp, and basically recaps everything we already know about the professor. Oh, and that Smirnoff found out how only bodies can be destroyed, but not souls. Anyway, he bites Lila again, but lets her live since he still needs her. 

Before he can do anything else, he becomes aware of the successful first attempt at transfusing Marlene's blood to cut off Drac's connection to her. Katinka has isolated the infected vampire cells in her bloodstream, and may one day able to cure all vampires, but for now is getting what cells are infected out of Marlene to cut off Drac's control. But the Count is wise to their attempts, and thanks to Marlene inviting him, he's able to smash through the window and tries to free her. Blade attacks with one of his teakwood daggers, but the blows he gets in on Dracula fail to harm him at all. He calls him insane and brushes him aside, before turning to Marlene and again announcing his plans to knock her up. Frank finally grows a set when he picks up Blade's dagger and stabs Drac in the neck! But he failed to kill him, so that gives Vlad something else to insult him about. Katinka, her skin condition a result of Dracula biting her mother when she was being born, pulls out a crucifix and uses it against him, somehow getting up enough power with it to set Vlad's head ablaze! Drac flies off, defeated. Marlene is finally herself again, and hugs Frank. Blade is happy, but Katinka warns that he'll be back. Drac heads to Lila's place and gets some rest. Hours later, Lila returns home, having contacted the Belonging to let them know to do the ritual en masse in three nights. But when she sees what Drac looks like now, his face-flesh charred off, his language slurred, she's taken aback. Anyway, he rejects her and takes off, wanting revenge on his enemies. He feasts on a whole restuarant of people. Within three nights, more than 1600 students on campuses in 23 states do that whole ritual thing all at once. And Dracula collects their spirits by tapping into the psychic reservoir, causing him to grow more powerful than ever before. To make things worse, it seems Marlene isn't as cured as we'd thought... 


Flashback: There's a single half-panel generic remembrance shot of Dracula back during the early days, in a kind of Shakespearean costume. 

There's a single panel of Drac standing in a window or something, with nothing to place it. There's a movie screen shot of Bela Lugosi as Drac about to bite a woman, and a shot of Christopher Lee as Drac, as well. Plus we got a Terminator-esque robot man, a skateboard, a computer with the words "Cowabunga Dude" on it, and a generic WWI shot of soldiers. 


Continuity notes: Katinka claims to have had her mother killed by Dracula while she was in labor with her, which is basically the same origin as Blade. Yet instead of being a powerful Daywalker, she's got a bit of what Michaels Morbius and Jackson has, with an allergy to sunlight. 


Goofs: Drac enters Lila's room without being invited. In fact, she's specifically tells him to go away! Yet, Marlene has to invite him so he can attack Katinka's lab. 

Uhh, so Blade and Frank trashed Smirnoff's place looking for info, but never checked his university office, where it all actually was!? 

Why did Katinka's cross do so much damage to Drac? And why did Drac have Lila planning the massive Belonging ritual event, when he made clear before he wasn't interested in using the soul reservoir? I mean, I can see him wanting to use it AFTER the Katinka incident, but he would have had Lila arrange it prior to that. 


------------------------------------ 
THE TOMB OF DRACULA VOL 3 #4 [1992] 
"Day of Blood! Night of Redemption! Book 4" 
Writer: Marv Wolfman 
Penciler: Gene Colan 
Inker: Al Williamson 

Cast: 
DRACULA/VLAD TEPES
DRAKE, FRANKLIN
BLADE/ERIC BROOKS
MCKENNA-DRAKE, MARLENE
KATINKA
JONES, GOSSAMER
GOLEM, INSPECTOR JUDIAH 


Other characters: 
Lila (dies) 
Some cops 
Some zombie soldiers 


Summary: Dracula taps into the psychic reservoir as it's filled beyond capacity, turning himself into Timmy Bighands and getting all freaky looking as a result of the power infusion. At the college, Frank & Blade do some investigating, but it's Katinka who leads them to Lila, by way of Becky's connection to Smirnoff. Marlene, unbeknowst to the others, is still under Vlad's control, and warns Drac that they're coming. Well, the trio get to Lila's place, but it turns out Drac's got a new coffin elsewhere he's sleeping in, and Lila's actually in his old one, lovesick and waiting for him. They find out all about the psychic reservoir from the computer files. So, Lila wants to see Drac again, and with her rapport with him, will lead the trio to him. Blade tries to muscle the info out of her, Frank tries to calm him down, so Blade knocks him aside. Before they can fight some more, Katinka halts Blade, bringing up some mysterious "you know what I can do to you" thing that never gets elaborated on. Oh, you know where Dracula's sleeping? Why, he's in Arlington Cemetery! Marlene is drawn to him there when night falls and he crawls out of a grave. Thus, he begins to summon more souls from the psychic reservoir, planning to control the world by the next day. Meanwhile, Frank takes Blade and Katinka to a small antinque shop in the middle of nowhere. It's run by Gossamer Jones, apparently the guy who supplied Rachel & Quincy with their arsenal back in the old days. 

And now for something completely different. Inspector Judiah Golem is called in to investigate the dozens of deaths that have plagued Georgetown of late (first being Drac's killing sprees, and now the mayhem caused by the psychic reservoir). Seems there's been 666 deaths across the country similar to this, all within the past day. Golem, as we learn, has some kind of mystical crystal and teleports to a chamber of light with chandles and asks a twin-dragon statued gem to show him the answer. Within an hour, he reports to the police precient. The Captain is pretty much forced to work with him, but doesn't want to know what methods he uses to do it. While on his way out, he tells a prostitute named Frannie about how she was infected with a contaminated needle four years ago, which she wasn't even aware of. His fellow cops, who already didn't like him and found him spooky, well, this just gives them more reason to .... what the hell does this have to do with ANYTHING?! 

So, the trio, now with added weapons, head to Arlington with Lila. Drac's doing his big soul-sucking number, and just to show his increased power, he resurrects numerous soldiers from the cemetery and sics them on the incoming invaders. And just for kicks, he wants Marlene to be eaten by the zombies! So, Frank, Blade, and Katinka storm in with their jeep and start smashing down zombies. They fall pretty easily, and Dracula is an easy target, taking several rounds of "wooden frag bullets". Despite all his added power, he's still vulernable. Blade finally goes nuts. I mean, he was always a little crazy, but here, he full on goes over the edge when he attacks Drac and proceeds to stab him repeatedly with his teakwood dagger. He's really on the cusp of another successful killing of Dracula, when Lila hits him over the head and gives Vlad a chance to suck her blood, restoring him to a semblance of health. But he needs more, and stupid Marlene is willing to give him herself. 

Meanwhile, in an unrelated series, Judiah Golem finds Drac's coffin in Lila's place. 

So, Frank uses the power of love (just like Huey, Dewey, & Lewis), to break Drac's hold over Marlene forever and ever, I mean it this time. But the zombies attack and capture Marlene. Katinka saves Frank, by driving the jeep despite not knowing how. Dracula prepares to kill Marlene, when Blade pops up and stabs him in the chest. But he doesn't get far before Drac breaks his hand and flings him into the air. Vlad's getting weaker, and gives in to some more souls. Frank rescues Marlene, and hops in Katinka's jeep to make a quick getaway. They're about to save Blade, when they realize he's finally cracked up beyond repair. Oh, Judiah Golem and his generic cop pals show up, aware of what's going on and just hanging back while things happen as they're support to. Blade gets up and tries to kill Drac again, but the spirits zooming around trip him up and cause him to bump his head. As for Dracula, well, he's getting too much of a good thing. More and more souls pour into him, and he's unable to stop them. It's like his devoidity of spirit has been recouped, and now, every dead soul he ingests harms him doubly. More and more flow in, and before ya know it, Dracula explodes into nothingness. The jeep drives by and Frank scoops up the babbling Blade, as the team escapes, amazed by the fact their enemy is finally gone. 

A week later, Blade is in a straight jacket, stuck in a rubber room. He's screaming about how he knows Dracula is still alive, and how he knows everyone is in it on it with him, and how he'll kill Drac and anyone else helping him. He's been committed, and his friends think it's for the best. Frank, Marlene, and Katinka visit him, and then part ways. Marlene and Frank will be moving somewhere where nobody will ever find them, hoping to never have to be involved with the supernatural again. It's up to Katinka now to take care of things like that, and as she returns to her place, there's a confusing panel of what seems to be Dracula's spirit floating nearby (or of whatever goofy looking demon guy was visible earlier in that candle room), Katinka's fingers glowing, and Judiah Golem on the street corner, implying he and she will join up and take over for Frank and Blade... or something. Can I just say... I've never done hard drugs. But reading this book, with the absurdity and constantly fluxing plot, I feel as though I've been higher than a frigging kite. I've seen issues of Flaming Carrot with more grounded storytelling. 


Continuity notes: Blade will remain in the mental hospital until Nightstalkers #1. Frank & Marlene will remain married. Drac will remain dead until he's just treated as having come back without fanfare in around 97. 


Goofs: How is it Blade was unaware of Gossamer Jones? He spent a great deal of time with Quincy and Rachel, you'd think the supplier of their weapons would be known to the guy who defines himself on his use of weapons. 

Why the hell is Drac boasting about the psychic reservior giving him "life eternal"? He's ALREADY IMMORTAL! 

Blade claims Dracula was the one who killed his mother, despite the fact it was Deacon Frost (and then Dracula confirms it!). Course, Blade is a little over the edge at this point, but considering they don't even bring up his immunity to vampire bites, it does seem like Marv forgot Blade's backstory and powers. And as for Drac, he starts going on about feasting on her entrails, which couldn't have happened even if he was the one who bit Tara Cross, since Frost never got a chance to do much else thanks to Vanity's girls barging in. He's just playing up to Blade's paranoia, he likely doesn't even remember half the people he's killed. 

The Captain says he'll give Golem "two men" to aid him. When we see him later, he's got THREE! 

Frank & Marlene do a great job of going where nobody will ever find them... they move to Boston, where Frank was once or twice already based out of when fighting Drac. 

------------------------------------ 
Why is "TOD MAG" listed so often in Drac's chronology? I thought TOD2 was the magazine version? 

DRACULA/VLAD TEPES 
... 
DRSTR2 62 
**TOD3 1 
**TOD3 2 
**TOD3 3 
**TOD3 4 
**BLADE3-FB-BTS 
SMTU 6/2-FB 
SMTU 6/2 
M/S&L 1/2 
[BLADE3]=REMOVE 
D:LU 1 
... 

VAN HELSING, RACHEL 
... 
TOD 70 
**TOD3 1-FB 
UX@ 6 
**TOD3 1 
**TOD3 2-OP 
**TOD3 3-OP 

DRAKE, FRANKLIN 
... 
M/CP 64/4 
**TOD3 1-FB-BTS 
**TOD3 1-FB 
**TOD3 1 
NS 1 
... 

MCKENNA-DRAKE, MARLENE 
**TOD3 1-FB 
**{TOD3 1} 
**TOD3 2 
**TOD3 3 
**TOD3 4 
NS 1 
NS 2 
NS 11 
**NS 16 
**NS 18-BTS 

**SMIRNOFF, DR. GREGOR 
TOD3 1-FB 
TOD3 1-FB 
{TOD3 1} 
TOD3 2 

HAROLD, HAROLD H. 
... 
TOD 70 
**TOD3 1-FB 
HTD MAG 5 
DRSTR2 62 

BLADE/ERIC BROOKS 
... 
M/CP 64/4 
**TOD3 2 
**TOD3 3 
**TOD3 4 
NS 1-FB 
... 

**KATINKA 
TOD3 3 
TOD3 4 

**JONES, GOSSAMER 
TOD3 4 

**GOLEM, INSPECTOR JUDIAH 
TOD3 4

			*	*	*

Aug 20, 2007 6:05 pm 
By SeanCurtin

JLH wrote:
>>>
Frank claims he buried Rachel, despite the fact she was staked by Wolverine and was turned to basically dust.
<<<

He could be using the term euphemistically. At the very least, Rachel's friends and colleagues would have held a funeral service for her, even if there were nothing left to bury; he could be referencing that.


JLH wrote:
>>>
It seems Asmodeus erased everything from TOD2 1 onward to DRSTR2 62 from Drac's brain, as his first comments when being revived are about Quincy Harker.
<<<

This isn't the first time that Dracula has mysteriously developed amnesia after being resurrected from a lengthy death. In TOD 1, he acts as if he's been dead since Abraham Van Helsing staked him in the 19th century, and doesn't start referencing later events until six or more issues later. Granted, none of those later events had been retroactively introduced until after that point, but that does at least provide precedent. This temporary confusion could also help to explain why Dracula thinks that he killed Blade's mother in #4.

			*	*	*

Sep 27, 2007 5:19 pm 
By Enda80

The Zombies Book states that the Asmodeus in this series is the same one from Ghost Rider II#76 (Blaze series).

			*	*	*

Thread 46

Subject: Calendar; Punisher MAX Annual 1

Sep 28, 2007 7:48 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Punisher MAX Annual #1 
The Hunted 
Published: November, 2007 

Appearances: 
the Punisher(Frank Castle), and a bunch of other folks who all get killed, who have never been seen before and will never be seen again. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4pn2: one night 
Eddie drives to the doctor while Tommy bleeds all over his car. 
Pg4pn3(of 5)-pg6-FB 
Eddie gets his gang together for a job. They make their way to an apartment building and set it on fire to teach the new owner a lesson. 
Pg7pn1-pg7pn4: now 
The doctor informs Eddie that theres nothing he can do for Tommy. 
Pg7pn5-pg7pn6(of 6)-FB 
The building burns as a kid whos trapped inside screams for help, but Eddies gang just watches. 
Pg8: now 
Eddie leaves the doctors. 
Pg9-pg12pn2-FB 
Eddie and the gang go to the bar to drink their troubles away. When they leave, theyre confronted by the Punisher 
Pg12pn3-pg12pn5(of 5): now 
Eddie goes to Omars building and tells the security guard to let him through. 
Pg13-FB 
The Punisher shoots up Eddies gang. 
Pg14-pg15: now 
Eddie asks Omar, the crime boss he works for, if he can hide out for a while. Omar is hesitant to offer protection from the Punisher, but agrees anyway. 
Pg16-pg17pn2-FB (leads into pg1) 
The Punisher kills everyone but Eddie and Tommy, but Tommy is shot while getting into Eddies car. Eddie drives away. 
Pg17pn3(of 5)-pg36: now 
The Punisher infiltrates Omars building and kills everyone. Eddie gets away and tries to get help from a couple of people, none of whom will help him. He goes to his place to get his stuff, and then tries to turn himself in to the police. When they hear hes running from the Punisher, they pretend hes drunk and tell him to sleep it off. As they drive away, the Punisher arrives and shoots Eddie in the face. 

References: 
All in one rainy night, no moon is seen, and people are wearing jackets, probably because of the rain. 

This could go almost anywhere in the Punishers chronology, but Ill suggest between issues 49 & 50 of the current volume.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

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Thread 47

Subject: Ooops...we've done it again

28 Aug 2007 08:37 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Been featured in a scholarly paper on social networking, that is. 

For a little light reading: 
http://arxiv.org/abs/0708.2410 

Download the paper via the links on the right-hand side of the page. 


watching: hannity & combs

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

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28 Aug 2007 11:06 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

>>>
For a little light reading: 
<<<

That's light reading?!? While I found it an interesting thesis paper, I had to skim over some parts, as they were trying to boggle my mind... 

Always nice to see the MCP getting mention though. Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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30 Aug 2007 11:18 pm 
By Ross

What's with that arxiv.org site? I can't seem to get to it. 

I summarized a previous MCP-based social network paper (late 2001 / early 2002) for a mini-project in a Probability & Statistics class I was taking. And now that I'm doing grad classes, I'm keeping it in the back of my mind for a possible project - social network / graph analysis is super fun stuff, especially when it's Marvel.  

Were any of the MCP "regulars" involved in these papers?

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31 Aug 2007 07:01 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Ross wrote:
>>>
What's with that arxiv.org site? I can't seem to get to it.
<<<


I just got there, by clicking the link in the original post. Perhaps their server was overloaded by all the folks from the MCP trying to get there at once.  


watching: today

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

02 Sep 2007 07:14 am 
By SKleefeld
Director

Dang -- that seems really familiar. Did Gleiser mention this before at some point, did somebody else do a similar study, or is my memory just working backwards?

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03 Sep 2007 03:12 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

The first few pages are very similar to the study by those guys in Spain who examined the Project a couple of years ago. 


watching: parades

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.
