	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Unidentified characters in AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE #1
2. Spider-Man in Unlimited Access
3. Figuring Out the "New" New Warriors
4. Kraven in TOS 58 and ASM@ 1
5. Quick Query
6. Charcters in FNSM 24
7. SPIDER-MAN:WITH GREAT POWER, reason to worry?
8. X-Men: First Class v2 #4
9. Strange & Moondragon
10. Man-Thing flashbacks
11. ASM: Assassin Nation
12. Silent War placement
13. Lt. Keating/Foreigner
14. Marvel Cybercomics

	Issue Analysis Forum
15. Cable & Deadpool 45
16. October call for analyses
17. Calendar; Franklin Richards: Monster Mash 1
18. Calendar; Wolverine Annual 1
19. Misc. Timely stuff
20. Immortal Iron Fist #7
21. White Tiger #1-6
22. Avengers Classic 5/2
23. Wolverine: Origins 18
24. Apache Skies #1-4
25. Cyberspace 3000 (1993-4 Marvel UK)
26. All Winners Comics 1-4 
27. USA Comics 1-4

	Chat Forum
28. Chronology "Break-Points"




Thread 1

Subject: Unidentified characters in AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE #1

Oct 01, 2007 12:00 am 
By jannepie

I was reading through AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE #1 again and there are still a character or two I don't recognize. 

Page 11, we see the new recruits arriving at Camp Hammond. Does anyone know if the female agent/trainer next to Gauntlet has been named? 

Behind her, we see Stature, Nighthawk, "Hulkling", "Wiccan", Constrictor and one other that could be identified. Who is this caped male hero? 

Most of the others in page 11's background seem to be just generic characters. 

Two pages later, we see MVP exercising. Other recruits are watching him and I think I can recognize them all. I see Red Wolf, Stingray, Nighthawk, two unidentifiable, Constrictor, Network, Scorpio, Doc Samson, Hellcat and Debrii. Do other agree with these? 

In later issues, I've been able to identify everyone.

			*	*	*

Oct 01, 2007 6:10 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
Page 11, we see the new recruits arriving at Camp Hammond. Does anyone know if the female agent/trainer next to Gauntlet has been named? 
<<<

That shade of green on her face tells me it's She-Hulk.


>>>
Behind her, we see Stature, Nighthawk, "Hulkling", "Wiccan", Constrictor and one other that could be identified. Who is this caped male hero? 
<<<

My guess is Stingray.


>>>
Two pages later, we see MVP exercising. Other recruits are watching him and I think I can recognize them all. I see Red Wolf, Stingray, Nighthawk, two unidentifiable, Constrictor, Network, Scorpio, Doc Samson, Hellcat and Debrii. Do other agree with these? 
<<<

I'm not familiar with this iteration of Scorpio, but your list looks good to me.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 01, 2007 8:10 am 
By jannepie

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
That shade of green on her face tells me it's She-Hulk.
<<<

Really? Why would she have that sort of a costume if all the others are having their regular costumes? Also, she's quite short. I think she looks like the female on the cover behind Shooting Star.


>>>
My guess is Stingray.
<<<

Nah, different kind of cape and this one has little wings on his head like Captain America.


>>>
I'm not familiar with this iteration of Scorpio, but your list looks good to me. 
<<<

Whoops, I meant Scorpion. 

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Scorpion_(Carmilla_Black)

			*	*	*

Oct 02, 2007 6:06 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
Really? Why would she have that sort of a costume if all the others are having their regular costumes?
<<<

She's an agent of SHIELD at this time.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 02, 2007 9:55 am 
By jannepie

Oh yeah! To be honest, I never even noticed the greenish color the first time I read it.

			*	*	*

Oct 02, 2007 10:12 am 
By Lonewolf36

>>>
Behind her, we see Stature, Nighthawk, "Hulkling", "Wiccan", Constrictor and one other that could be identified. Who is this caped male hero?
<<<

I believe that is Prodigy formerly of the Slingers

			*	*	*

Oct 02, 2007 11:46 am 
By jannepie

You're right! It does look exactly like him.

			*	*	*

Thread 2

Subject: Spider-Man in Unlimited Access

Oct 04, 2007 10:42 pm 
By newtron

Hi, 

I'm trying to figure out when 'Unlimited Access' #1 (and I guess the other issues) occur relative to Spider-Man's timeline. Anybody have any suggestions? 

Thanks, 
Dave

			*	*	*

Thread 3

Subject: Figuring Out the "New" New Warriors

Aug 01, 2007 5:55 pm 
By Jason Doty

Has anyone figured out all of the New Warriors in their recent incarnation. So far I have Wondra (Jubilee), Decibel (Chamber), Blackwing (Beak), and Wind Dancer who hasn't taken a name. That leaves Skybolt, Tempest, and Three others. There are also two supporting cast members, are they from Big Hero 6, or is the little guy Wiz Kid? Any guesses or Ideas.

			*	*	*

Aug 01, 2007 6:07 pm 
By Somebody
Director

This is more of a Chat topic, isn't it?

Tempest, I'd almost bet money is Angel Salvatore [Beak's girlfriend/mother of his kids]. 

Sofia, I expect will get the name Renascence when all's said and done. 

"Kaz" and "Grace", well, presumably they're their real names there, or some corruption thereof. Whatever that's worth. 

Ripcord (the crew-cut female) and the others we don't have, no clue yet.

			*	*	*

Oct 07, 2007 2:47 pm 
By Jason Doty

Giving a glance at my stores first looks. I've figured out three more members. They are all members of the [spoiler]Omega Gang.[/spoiler] 
[spoiler]Tatoo is Longstrike. 
Radian is Phaser. 
Redneck is Skybolt.[/spoiler]

Last edited by Jason Doty on Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:52 pm, edited 2 times in total. 

			*	*	*

Oct 07, 2007 3:41 pm 
By Somebody

And [spoiler] tags just didn't seem like a good idea at the time, considering it's a comic which is not out yet?

			*	*	*

Oct 07, 2007 4:05 pm 
By Jason Doty

Just fixed the problem and will attempt to be more consciensious next time. Sorry Somebody.

			*	*	*

Oct 07, 2007 5:42 pm 
By jephyork
Director

How many New Warriors characters ARE there at the moment? They've all got such generic names that I can't keep track. 

I count: 

Night Thrasher 
Wondra 
Decibel 
Blackwing 
Tempest 
Longstrike 
Phaser 
Skybolt 
Ripcord 

Kaz 
Grace 
Aja 

Sofia Mantega 

Are there any characters that have shown up on-panel but haven't been named yet? Are there any codenames (aside from "Renascence") that the creators have mentioned in interviews that haven't shown up yet? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Oct 07, 2007 5:56 pm 
By Somebody
Director

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6413/newnewwarriorsnr3.jpg

			*	*	*

Thread 4

Subject: Kraven in TOS 58 and ASM@ 1

Oct 11, 2007 10:42 pm 
By Starman

When I went through the chronologies I noticed that Kraven appears in TOS 58 before ASM@ 1, but the others that appear in both these issues appears in ASM@ 1 before TOS 58. 

First ASM@ 1, later TOS 58 
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN GRANT ROGERS 
GIANT-MAN/HANK PYM 
IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK 
THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" [ASGARDIAN] 
WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM 

First TOS 58, later ASM@ 1 
KRAVEN THE HUNTER/SERGEI KRAVINOFF 

I suggest that we change Kraven's chronology so that TOS 58 happens after ASM@ 1, instead of before. 

KRAVEN THE HUNTER/SERGEI KRAVINOFF 
[***] 
SENSM '96 
TOS 58 [Delete] 
ASM@ 1 
TOS 58 [Insert] 
ASM 18 
[***]

- Stefan

"Pub, ah yes. A meeting place where people attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf

			*	*	*

Oct 12, 2007 10:22 am 
By Somebody
Director

BTW, wasn't it established at some point that Cap had no middle name, and that "Grant" was from some incredibly convoluted brainwashing screw-up?

			*	*	*

Oct 12, 2007 8:40 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Yes, it was - he even said that he doesn't actually have a middle name.

			*	*	*

Oct 13, 2007 2:28 am 
By Adamant

In ASM15, Kraven and the Chameleon are deported at the end of the story. in TOS58, they are bribing some sailors to smuggle them back into the country, and they both end up getting arrested at the end. In ASM@1, Kraven is hanging around in New York, and ends up in jail again at the story's conclusion. 

So the logical order would be ASM15, TOS58, ASM@1

			*	*	*

Oct 13, 2007 5:05 am 
By Starman

Which means that TOS 58 should happen before ASM@ 1 for everyone involved, not just Kraven. 

Good research. I don't have TOS 58, so it's good that you could look it up. 

- Stefan

"Pub, ah yes. A meeting place where people attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf

			*	*	*

Oct 13, 2007 7:50 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Interesting to note that the OFFICIAL INDEX TO THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #1 has Kraven appearing in TOS 58 before ASM@ 1 and that the chronologies of the guest-star heroes who appeared in ASM@ 1 hadn't been worked out yet. 

When the OFFICIAL INDEX TO THE AVENGERS, Vol. 1 #1 was published, Olshevsky et al juggled the order of things after "further chronological analysis of the sequence of stories listed in MARVEL SAGA #15." They showed a new sequence: 
TOS 57 
ASM 16 
ST 125 
ASM@ 1 
JIM 109 
UX 7 
TOS 58 

OFFICIAL MARVEL INDEX TO THE AVENGERS, Vol. 2 #1 maintains the rearranged order by noting Cap appearing in TOS 58 after ASM@ 1. 

So can't Kraven get deported a second time after being in jail following ASM@ 1, then hook back up with Chameleon to try to get back into the U.S. in TOS 58?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 14, 2007 12:27 am 
By Starman

Yes, of course. I just want the chronology to be consistent for all the characters involved. Right now Kraven acts like some kind of time traveller in comparison to the others.

- Stefan

"Pub, ah yes. A meeting place where people attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf

			*	*	*

Oct 14, 2007 12:33 am 
By Adamant

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
So can't Kraven get deported a second time after being in jail following ASM@ 1, then hook back up with Chameleon to try to get back into the U.S. in TOS 58?
<<<

He could, of course, and he usually has his base of operation in some jungle somewhere rather than in New York (and he's not an American citizen, I believe), but the TOS story really really gives the impression that it's supposed to take place right after ASM15. I don't have the issue here, so I can't check the dialouge, though.

			*	*	*

Thread 5

Subject: Quick Query

Oct 14, 2007 3:42 am 
By meta

Hi, I'm working on what I like to call my 'X-Cyclopedia' trying to write up as detailed bios for characters as I can. I've recently had to re-start as my computer crashed and lost the whole thing. Serious bummer. 

Anyway, I've always used the glory of the Chronology project to try and order issues for the bios, but for most characters the chronology lists don't appear to go past four or five years ago. Eg: Storm's only goes up to the end of X-Treme X-men, and Tony Stark's only goes to the end of the last Iron Man series. Is there a newer section that I've missed or have the lists just not been updated recently?

			*	*	*

Oct 14, 2007 11:09 am 
By jephyork
Director

The latter. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Oct 15, 2007 11:08 am 
By meta

That would explain it then. Thanks.

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Subject: Charcters in FNSM 24

Oct 14, 2007 8:52 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

On pages 8-9 of FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #24, a spell by Dr. Strange allows Spidey to visit a number of people all at once to ask them to help save Aunt May. I recognize Yellowjacket, Beast, Storm and Black Panther, Mr. Fantastic, Dr. Doom, Morbius, and Dr. Octopus. Is the nurse supposed to be Night Nurse or Jane Foster? Is the man in the white shirt supposed to be Curt Connors? Is the girl in the X-Statix costume Dead Girl (her face isn't quite right)? Who's the guy with the visor in the upper right? It doesn't quite look like Cyclops to me.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 14, 2007 9:04 am 
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
 Is the nurse supposed to be Night Nurse or Jane Foster? 
<<<

Looks like Night Nurse to me.


>>>
Is the girl in the X-Statix costume Dead Girl (her face isn't quite right)?
<<<

Looks like it. 


>>>
Who's the guy with the visor in the upper right? It doesn't quite look like Cyclops to me.
<<<

The Wizard ? That's what he looks like in New Avengers these days...

			*	*	*

Oct 14, 2007 11:37 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

I also think that's Night Nurse, and yes that's Dead Girl. 

I'm pretty sure that's Curt Conners, his sleeve looks flat. 

It's either the Wizard or the Fixer. But it's most likely the Wizard. 

And who's that to the right of Yellowjacket? Mr. Hyde?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Oct 14, 2007 1:56 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

And who's that to the right of Yellowjacket? Mr. Hyde?

I totally missed that panel. I have no clue who that is, but would Hyde be in any position to help Peter?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 17, 2007 3:17 am 
By Starman

Found this Wizard Entertainment article that might help. 

>>>
MARVEL MONDAYS: JOE QUESADA
The editor-in-chief gives a panel-by-panel breakdown of Spideys Strange trip as One More Day continues in Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man #24 
By Matt Powell 
Posted October 8, 2007 4:00 PM
<<<

http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/ ... 092289.cfm 

In the article these characters are listed: 

* DOCTOR DOOM
* DEAD GIRL
* DOCTOR OCTOPUS 
* DOCTOR CURT CONNORS
* MORBIUS
* REED RICHARDS
* BEAST AND YELLOWJACKET
* BLACK PANTHER AND STORM
* MR. HYDE
* THE WIZARD
* NIGHT NURSE

- Stefan

"Pub, ah yes. A meeting place where people attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf

			*	*	*

Oct 17, 2007 5:50 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Much obliged, Starman. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Subject: SPIDER-MAN:WITH GREAT POWER, reason to worry?

Oct 16, 2007 9:16 am 
By cweed4

Looks like Spidey's early days are going to get updated- http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=133036 

Sounds like an intriguing story idea but a few things set off warning alarms. The first picture w/ Spidey wrestling shows a jumbro-tron w/ video display. This reminds me of the Bruce Jones Kingpin origin mini in which modern-day technology was inserted to a story that was supposed to take place in a previous time. Also, his costume is drawn without the underarm webbing. And then this little nugget from the author- "Im not so much a continuity guy, the writer said. That stuff just hurts my head." As a spidey-ophile I am looking forward to this series but with a little apprehension.

			*	*	*

Oct 16, 2007 2:45 pm 
By Somebody
Director

1) Sliding timeline. Plasma screens and Peter wearing something other than a waistcoat aren't an issue. 

2) Marvel Knights. Post-ongoings MK is Elseworlds by default. It may fit, but there's no expectation it will.

			*	*	*

Oct 17, 2007 6:39 pm 
By cweed4

Somebody wrote:
>>>
1) Sliding timeline. Plasma screens and Peter wearing something other than a waistcoat aren't an issue.
<<<

Really? I thought the sliding timeline concept was just an attempt to explain away characters not aging in relation to topical references. I didn't think it gave writers the license to change/update such details in flashbacks & retcons.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
2) Marvel Knights. Post-ongoings MK is Elseworlds by default. It may fit, but there's no expectation it will.
<<<

I didn't know that MK comics were produced as non-continuity stories  
So do they just get added to MU chronology under bizzaro rules: assume they're out unless they have to fit?

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Subject: X-Men: First Class v2 #4

Sep 21, 2007 3:51 pm 
By Somebody
Director

X:FC2 4 preview: http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/ ... i?id=11928 

Cry Havok  

[Although the fill-in artist drew the wrong costume for Scott in the FB, obviously. POV though, so it's obviously just the costume Bobby was thinking of Scott in generally at this stage ]

			*	*	*

Sep 21, 2007 10:15 pm 
By metaldragon

Uh oh. This appears to be a pre-UX 54 appearance of Alex. Danger, Will Robinson! The only time Alex and Professor X could appear together with the rest of the X-Men aware of Alex's existence would have to be post-UX 66. (Which means, really, post- XHY 22... Byrne and his impossibly tight plotting... No chance for a 2-week break anywhere in there! And where's Lorna...?) 

If this story is set sometime before UX 54, it completely contradicts the established history of Alex in UX 54. 

Cyclops: "It started on a lovely spring day-- --On the campus of Old Landon College! All the X-Men had turned out to celebrate my well-kept secret..." 

Jean (thinks): "Imagine Scott having a kid brother-- and never once letting on about it!"

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Sep 21, 2007 11:20 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Unless, of course, the issue explains itself, or ends in a mind-wipe, or...

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 21, 2007 11:21 pm 
By metaldragon

Yup! I guess we'll find out next Tues!

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Sep 27, 2007 12:01 am 
By metaldragon

Well, latest issue appears to take place some time after the Monster Island incident, after Angel's dates with Wanda, and before UX 32. This means Professor X wipes their memories of Alex sometime between this appearance and his official first appearance in UX 54, possibly at Cyclops' request. Since this is an actual, "official" vacation, this may take place right after X:FC 2 as "the rest" of their vacation time off. (Odd that Iceman and Beast would end up back in Florida for it...!  )

Last edited by metaldragon on Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:40 am, edited 2 times in total. 

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Sep 27, 2007 9:48 am 
By Somebody
Director

Why did this get split off from the main X:FC thread?

			*	*	*

Sep 27, 2007 11:29 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

If we keep posting in the same thread each time a new issue comes out, the thread will never make it into the archives, and the chronologies will never be updated. Since most of First Class are stand alone stories, we should probably start a new thread for each issue. That's my guess.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 27, 2007 3:31 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Two things: 

1) Unlike v1, X:FC2 seems to be on something approaching a linear chronology - a story is followed by the next, rather than jumping semi-randomly around the O5's history. None of the v1 issues referenced any other internal stories. 

2) Has any story ever actually hung on the X-Men not knowing Havok existed pre-UX 54? After all, that story had him graduating from uni, which makes him older than Scott or some sort of prodigy, and that's been glossed over to the point of a soft retcon* in later years. 

*By which I mean "not actually retconned, but ignored to the point where it might as well be for all the impact it's had, when if he's a prodigy it should really Matter...".

			*	*	*

Sep 28, 2007 12:36 am 
By wolframbane

Here is some of my analysis of the issue. 

It was implied that the X-Men were unaware of the existence of Alex before UX 54, yet Bobby tells Scott 'your brother is out there' in XFC2 4. In actuality, only Jean was definitely unaware of Alex in UX 54, when she thought 'imagine Scott having a kid brother, and never once letting on about it'. It is quite possible only Jean was unaware of Alex's relation to Scott, but Bobby was. Warren and Hank may or may not have known. And Alex only actually said hi to Scott before they left in XFC2 4, he never really had the chance to meet he other X-Men. Scott mentions Alex had 'my car' in the XFC 3 intro page, but Scott also refers to 'his jeep' in XFC2 4, so they are likely different vehicles. 

UX 54 refers to Alex as Scott's 'kid brother', and UX 144 indicates Scott is 4 years older than him (Scott was 10 when Alex was 6). OMITTX 3 indicates Alex was a prodigy, explaining why he is graduating college while Scott has just graduated high school shortly before. Assuming respective birthdates of Year -14 and Year -10 for Scott and Alex (Scott was a high school senior in UX 1 during Year 3 according to OMITTX 1), they would be 19 and 15 respectively during UX 54 in late September of Year 5 from OMITTX 3 (ignoring the 'spring' comment from UX 54). But Alex is shown driving in XFC2 4, and only had average intelligence according to OHOTMU:X 2004 and the Marvel Encyclopedia, not a prodigy. Perhaps he is Scott's younger brother, but would probably be older than 15 by UX 54, but no older than 17. 

Charles Xavier doesn't recall Bobby having any cousins. He is apparently unaware of Mary and Joel, from Iceman #1-4. 

Bobby has a flashback of he and Scott fleeing an anti-mutant mob. Scott is wearing his 'version 2.0' uniform, and Bobby refers to Scott and Prof X taking him in. The flashback would either have to be Bobby misremembering Scott saving him in his hometown (Scott was wearing the wrong uniform), or another occassion Scott and Bobby faced a mob (post-XFC 6 given Scott's uniform). 

Bobby and Hank 'borrow' Warren's car, which appears to be a white Ford Mustang convertible. This is probably the same Mustang used by Warrent throughout the early X-Men issues. Although it has been depicted as red, yellow and white on different ocassions, OMITTX 1-3 identifies it as the same car throughout, Warren probably had it custom painted. It was shown in UX 3 (yellow), UX 14 (white), UX 27 (red), UX 31-32 (white again), KZ 2, M/TALES 30, M/TU 4 (colors unknown, I do not have these issues), and he later got a Maverick in UX 60. Bobby and hank may have the car during its white period. 

The students are off for 'two weeks', after which they will take classes 'next quarter', so this is probably spring break (winter break is unlikely, given the green foliage), but given the private school semester, it could b any time of the year really. Bobby and Hank went on a road trip for several days, but no more than two weeks. 

Hank makes a reference to a date between Warren an Scarlet Witch, making it post-XFC 7. The 'Hobbit' reference indicates they probably saw Lord of the Rings, but this is likely a topical reference. 

Hank and Warren discuss who Jean likes more, Scott or Warren. So it is probably pre-UX 32, when Jean and Scott finally hook up. 

THE ROAD TRIP!!! 

DAY ONE: Bobby and Hank leave Salem Centre (near Scarsdale, NY), and travel 'one hundred miles' to the Devil's Vortex, a gravity hill. 'Later', they go to a gas station in 'Jersey'. They get $6.70 worth of gas, apparently enough to take them to 'Atlantic City'. Hank (born Yr -15) may or may not be old enough to legally gamble in NJ (age 21), but they get kicked out off the casino anyway. Later' they go camping, with plenty of money from the casino and stay the night. Note that while camping, there is a full moon out (Marvel Calender note!!) and hank mentions their trip to Monster Island (post-XFC2 3). 

DAY TWO: 'The next day', they decide tohead to Interstate '95' and head down to 'Florida'. Bobby refers to bolied peanuts as 'Appalachian caviar', so they may be in Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia, Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina or South Carolina (Appalachian Mountains). It's likely within a day of NJ and somewhere south of it, so probably Pennsylvania, Maryland or Virginia. 

THE FOLLOWING DAYS: The pass several states and cities during their trip, including Dillon, South Carolina; Savannah, Georgia; Orlando, Florida; Miami, Flordia; and Key West, Florida. In Key West, they visit Hemingway House, and get caught in a tropical storm. Hank comments 'its early for hurricane season' (which is typically June 1-November 30), meaning it is likely spring. 

So in retrospect, they left New York for New Jersey during their first day (probably during spring and the day preceding the night of the full moon), hopped on the I-95 and headed south over the next few days before arriving in Florida. Mapquest indicates this is about 1500 miles, or a 24 hour drive. I figure given time for sleep and taking in the sites, this would take a week or so (remember they also have to eventually drive back!!).

			*	*	*

Sep 28, 2007 6:15 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
The students are off for 'two weeks', after which they will take classes 'next quarter', so this is probably spring break 
<<<

Or a two-week break between a spring and summer semester, early in hurricane season.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Sep 28, 2007 7:12 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
2) Has any story ever actually hung on the X-Men not knowing Havok existed pre-UX 54? After all, that story had him graduating from uni, which makes him older than Scott or some sort of prodigy, and that's been glossed over to the point of a soft retcon* in later years. As far as I can tell, it's been glossed over just as Alex's school situation has been. There wasn't really a point to it originally, and it makes even less sense now.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.'

			*	*	*

Sep 28, 2007 8:06 pm 
By Somebody
Director

That's pretty much what I thought - it's a throwaway in the original (presumably a hamfisted attempt to say why we've never heard of Alex before), and I didn't recall anything coming of it later. 

Unless someone pulls up a story where it actually matters, I'd let that fall and ignore it completely when placing this issue.

			*	*	*

Sep 28, 2007 11:16 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
(presumably a hamfisted attempt to say why we've never heard of Alex before)
<<<

Hamfisted. That's a better way of putting it. 'You've never heard of Alex? Well, neither have we! Zoink!' 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Unless someone pulls up a story where it actually matters, I'd let that fall and ignore it completely when placing this issue.
<<<

Sounds good to me.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 30, 2007 11:34 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Someday I'll catch up to where some of you guys are in figuring out placements for issues in both First Class series, but in the meantime... 

1) Are we coding this XFC and XFC2 or X:FC and X:FC2? 

2) Are we counting the first series' yearbook pages in numbering? Those pages do contain info about presumably canonical events, but they're not part of the storyline. Because they account for character activities, it would be great to work them into character chronologies, but because they don't contain pictorial info, they don't appear to qualify for MCP listings.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Sep 30, 2007 12:53 pm 
By metaldragon

I guess one could match whatever format was used for X-Men: The Hidden Years for X-Men: First Class. Hidden Years is X:HY so First Class should be X:FC and X:FC2 then? 

For the yearbook pages, the events mentioned probably take place anytime between UX 7 and whenever the issue they're in is placed. I don't suppose they could be listed as flashbacks? They don't have any visual information though. What the heck would one call them?

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Oct 01, 2007 11:46 am 
By wolframbane

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Are we counting the first series' yearbook pages in numbering? Those pages do contain info about presumably canonical events, but they're not part of the storyline. Because they account for character activities, it would be great to work them into character chronologies, but because they don't contain pictorial info, they don't appear to qualify for MCP listings.
<<<

Perhaps with regard to the intro page, we should consider counting them in the page count. They remind me of the full page intro pages that were used by DC during the 50s-70s. The intro pages are at least tangentially connected to the story, at last moreso than later stories also published in the issue (like the comic strip backup in XFC2 3). 

I would include them in the page count for the same reason we include flashbacks, although they occur outside of the scope of the story and may even be considered another story entirely, hey are still tied to it. 

At the very least, it makes it easier for those referring to the MCP to navigate the pages and find what they are looking for.

			*	*	*

Oct 01, 2007 12:02 pm 
By wolframbane

BTW, did we ever determine when this flashback from XFC2 1 occurred, who is the villain in it? 

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s160 ... 2no1fb.jpg

			*	*	*

Oct 01, 2007 12:47 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I don't see why the X:FC (another vote for the colon) contents pages would count. We don't count recap pages unless they've got at least one panel of actual story on them. And if you can say how the (e.g.) X:FC 4 yb page (Angel, when Warren has only a minor role in the story) connects with it....

			*	*	*

Oct 02, 2007 2:34 am 
By JD

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
In actuality, only Jean was definitely unaware of Alex in UX 54, when she thought 'imagine Scott having a kid brother, and never once letting on about it'. 
<<<

And on a related note, in UX 138 (the big "We killed Jean and need to stall, so let's do a recap of the full series" issue), Scott tells us that Xavier helped him find Alex after they were separated in the orphanage. And there's no indication of timeframe, so there's no problem with Xavier meeting Alex in X:FC2 4. 

By the way, why is this topic called "X:FC2 5" when we're discussing issue 4 ?

			*	*	*

Oct 02, 2007 7:27 am 
By Somebody
Director

JD wrote:
>>>
By the way, why is this topic called "X:FC2 5" when we're discussing issue 4 ?
<<<

Don't blame me - even if my name's on the first post, I didn't split the thread...

			*	*	*

Oct 02, 2007 8:29 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Fixed. Better? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Oct 02, 2007 11:07 pm 
By metaldragon

JD wrote:
>>>
wolframbane wrote:
>>>
In actuality, only Jean was definitely unaware of Alex in UX 54, when she thought 'imagine Scott having a kid brother, and never once letting on about it'. 
<<<

And on a related note, in UX 138 (the big "We killed Jean and need to stall, so let's do a recap of the full series" issue), Scott tells us that Xavier helped him find Alex after they were separated in the orphanage. And there's no indication of timeframe, so there's no problem with Xavier meeting Alex in X:FC2 4.

By the way, why is this topic called "X:FC2 5" when we're discussing issue 4 ?
<<<

There never was a problem with Xavier meeting Alex in X:FC2 4. Xavier probably knew about Alex soon after taking Scott in as his first student. The problem is with Xavier meeting Alex with the REST of the X-Men there at the same time pre-UX 65. Professor X was sequestered in the sub-basement of the mansion and presumed dead between UX 42 and 65, so he couldn't appear alongside the rest of the X-Men with Alex after Alex's first appearance in UX 54, unless you set X:FC2 4 after XHY 22 [no earlier point between UX 65 and then for a 2 week break] (which leads to the problem of: where's Lorna?). Scott's dialogue and Jean's thought balloon inform us that Jean (and, it's implied, Bobby, Warren and Hank too) didn't know about Alex's existance before UX 54. 

The crucial piece of evidence which places X:FC2 4 before UX 32 is the fact that Beast thinks Jean likes Warren. (UX 32 the issue the Jean and Scott start dating and Warren introduces the X-Men to his new girlfriend: Candy Southern.) Which is why, in order for this story to fit into continuity, Scott's internal monologue and Jean's thought balloon about Alex in UX 54 are now assigned to Oblivion's realm. 

Awkward, but there you go. 

...Unless Xavier wipes their memories of Alex sometime between Alex's appearance here and UX 40, either BTS or in a (so far) untold story... 

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Oct 02, 2007 11:34 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I agree that we should just ignore any references to no one knowing about Alex prior to his first published appearance. It's not like his introduction was hinged on anyone's ignorance of him, or that it was a big mystery ending in the reveal of Scott's brother, it was a sloppy way of explaining to the readers why we hadn't heard of him before. 

As for Lorna, her lack of an appearance isn't evidence, it's lack of evidence. I wouldn't give her a second thought in this case.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Oct 02, 2007 11:56 pm 
By metaldragon

Col_Fury wrote:
As for Lorna, her lack of an appearance isn't evidence, it's lack of evidence. I wouldn't give her a second thought in this case.

I didn't mean to imply Lorna's lack of appearance was evidence for placement, just a dangling plot thread. For a book inserted into established continuity, leaving out a key character with no explanation is just really awkward. 

Which just led me to another thought... letters pages where people win No-Prizes for "fixing" something from an earlier issue...

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Oct 03, 2007 1:42 am 
By wolframbane

I have reviewed the entire thread for XFC2 1-4, and have complied a summary of all the notes, and organized it into what I feel is an appropriate organization of events. 

XFC2 1 
Sue calls Reed her 'husband' so after FF@ 3. 
Sue can make things invisible so after FF 22. 
Sometime after X-Men and FF first met in FF 28. 
Jean is trying to levitate herself, she is shown using her levitation in UX 14-18, 19 and 22, but she has still not perfected it. 
X-Men found Jean with Cerebro, so probably after UX 20-21 when Cerebro is fully functional. 

XFC2 2-3 
'Three weeks' before XFC2 3/2. 
Sometime before X-Men took Dragon Man to Monster Island in XFCS 1/5. 
'Last camping trip' was to Monster Island before XFC2 4. 
Mastermind is a statue, after UX 11 and XFC 7, probably before UX 26-BTS and definitely before UX 37 
Ref to Savage Land places this after UX 10. 
Ref to 'the jet' could be any of their aircraft. 

XFC2 3/2 
'Three weeks' after XFC2 3. 
Pietro had his blue uniform, so possibly after A 75, but given his appearance with it in XFC 7, this may be just an alternative to his green costume at this period. 
Sometime after Wanda left Brotherhood in UX 11. 
Possibly but not necessarily before Wanda and Pietro joined Avengers in A 16. 

XFC2 4 
'Last camping trip' was to Monster Island so after XFC2 2-3. 
Warren and Wanda had dated so after XFC 7, they saw Lord of the Rings apparently. 
Alex appears, but probably before UX 54, as Bobby tells Scott 'your brother is out there' and Alex does not meet the team, and by UX 54 only Jean was definitely unaware of Alex in UX 54, when she thought 'imagine Scott having a kid brother, and never once letting on about it', perhaps only Bobby is aware the Scott and Alex are brothers. 
Warren's Mustang is white, but has appeared in numerous colors (yellow, white red), OMITTX 1-3 identifies it as the same car, Warren probably had it custom painted. 
Hank and Warren discuss who Jean likes more, Scott or Warren, probably before UX 32. 
Students are off for 'two weeks', after which they will take classes 'next quarter. 
Hank comments 'its early for hurricane season' and there is a full moon their first day of vacation (you commented on a two-week break between a spring and summer semester, early in hurricane season). 

Note that XFC2 4 (a 2 week break) is after XFC2 2-3, and XFC2 3/2 is 3 weeks after XFC2 2-3, so the 2 week break in XFC2 4 could possibly fit in the 3 week gap between XFC2 2-3 and XFC 3/2 if necessary. 

Note the FB in XFC2 3 is the Stranger transforming Mastermind into a statue is from UX 11. THE FB from XFC2 4 shows Cyclops saving Bobby in UX 44/2-46/2, although Bobby misremembers Cyc's uniform. I could not identify the villain Invisible Girl was fighting in the FB from XFC2 1. 

Below I have compiled all the relevant placement clues for XFC2 1-4 as they are connected to the surrounding stories. Further analysis can probably for cleanly fit them in to the overall chronology. XFC2 2-3, XFC2 3/2 and XFC2 4 all have references to Monster Island, so they are grouped together. 

UX 10 (X-Men find Savage Land) 
UX 11 (Mastermind petrified, Wanda and Pietro leave Brotherhood) 
XFC 7 (Wanda dates Warren) 
XFC2 2-3 (X-Men on Monster Island) 
XFC2 3/2 (Jean hangs with Wanda) 
XFC2 4 (Bobby and Hank on Road Trip) 
XFCS 1/5 (Dragon Man taken to Monster Island) 
UX 26-BTS (Mastermind joins Factor Three) 
UX 32 (Scott and Jean hook up) 
UX 37 (Mastermind revealed to work for Factor Three) 
UX 54 (rest of X-Men officially meet Alex) 

XFC2 1 is a more stand alone story not directly connected to the rest of XFC2 2-4, so it is separate. 

FF 22 (Sue can make things invisible) 
FF 28 (FF and X-Men first meet) 
FF@ 3 (Sue and Reed are married) 
UX 20-21 (Cerebro back up and running) 
XFC2 1 (Jean meets Sue)

			*	*	*

Oct 03, 2007 2:05 pm 
By Dhall

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
I agree that we should just ignore any references to no one knowing about Alex prior to his first published appearance. It's not like his introduction was hinged on anyone's ignorance of him, or that it was a big mystery ending in the reveal of Scott's brother, it was a sloppy way of explaining to the readers why we hadn't heard of him before. 

As for Lorna, her lack of an appearance isn't evidence, it's lack of evidence. I wouldn't give her a second thought in this case.
<<<

Yes by all means, let us ignore everything that happened in UX 1-66. 

And before you all jump on me, I mean to imply that is what the writer is doing, not an attack on anyone on the board (least of all Fury, who I am quoting.)

			*	*	*

Oct 09, 2007 1:37 pm 
By Ocean Doot

"in UX 138 (the big "We killed Jean and need to stall, so let's do a recap of the full series" issue" 

I know it's a digression, but for the record, the death of Jean and "needing to stall" were not why UX 138 was a recap issue. It was going to be a recap issue even before the last-minute "death of Jean" fiasco. 

That is all.

			*	*	*

Oct 09, 2007 1:49 pm 
By Ocean Doot

For what it's worth, Dhall, I agree with you at this point. I know I originally argued that there was nothing too continuity-damaging in First Class, but since then it got ridiculous. The X-Men knowing that Mastermind's name is Jason Wyngarde makes Cyclops into a colossal idiot in "Dark Phoenix," and the Alex thing is a stupid flub that could easily have been rectified by changing a single word-balloon. ("Scott, your FRIEND Alex is here.") 

I admire everyone for continuing to attempt to make the series work, but personally I no longer think the series merits it.

			*	*	*

Oct 21, 2007 1:54 pm 
By metaldragon

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
XFC2 1
Sue calls Reed her 'husband' so after FF@ 3.
Sue can make things invisible so after FF 22.
Sometime after X-Men and FF first met in FF 28.
Jean is trying to levitate herself, she is shown using her levitation in UX 14-18, 19 and 22, but she has still not perfected it.
X-Men found Jean with Cerebro, so probably after UX 20-21 when Cerebro is fully functional.
<<<

Actually I'd place this before UX 19- the first time Marvel Girl is shown levitating in the Danger Room and consider the Cerebro reference in X:FC2 1 to be the damaged but functional Cerebro of UX 19 [edit: and X:FCS 1/5-FB].


wolframbane wrote:
>>>
Note that XFC2 4 (a 2 week break) is after XFC2 2-3, and XFC2 3/2 is 3 weeks after XFC2 2-3, so the 2 week break in XFC2 4 could possibly fit in the 3 week gap between XFC2 2-3 and XFC 3/2 if necessary.
<<<

I disagree with that placement. Why would Xavier then give them another in UX 14? I think the vacation here is the continuation of the time off that began in X:FC 2. Dialogue in UX 19 implies that a lot of time has passed since UX 18.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thread 9

Subject: Strange & Moondragon

Oct 23, 2007 11:12 am 
By Ethain

I need to know between which issues of Dr Strange I can find that "Strange" character, without the "Dr." He was sort of subtitute of Dr. Strange, with complete-covered face, blue costume... Sorry, because I can't give you more data about it. I need to locate a battle between him and Moondragon where he takes the Infinity Gem from her and attacks her with it. I've checked Moondragon chronology and her appearances in Dr. Strange series, with no success. I haven't find an entry for that Strange character, maybe it's under his real name, something I don't know...

			*	*	*

Oct 23, 2007 12:28 pm 
By Jeremy Johnston

It was actually in Warlock and the Infinity Watch #36.

			*	*	*

Oct 23, 2007 3:48 pm 
By Ethain

Thank you, I was searching in the wrong place then, it was not in Strange series!

			*	*	*

Oct 23, 2007 6:26 pm 
By JLH

It's because he's listed as the name of the being he became eventually, Paradox. And most of his appearances aren't properly logged in the MCP; I did a correct for it some time ago but it's yet to be added to the site.

			*	*	*

Thread 10

Subject: Man-Thing flashbacks

Oct 26, 2007 10:50 am 
By scottandrewhutchins

Possibly the earliest chronological appearance of Ted Sallis is DD 113-FB. MT 15 does not have a regular appearance of Man-Thing, rather it has flashbacks of Ted Sallis and Man-Thing's appearance is not quantifiable, although chronologically the issue takes place where it is listed. It is set in a New York apartment building, and Man-Thing is a hallucination there. 

Also, the stories in GS-MT 5 may be added to chronology, but there is not 100% certainty, as they are shown as potential futures in a crystal ball to Ted Sallis (and Ellen Brandt) by Madame Swabada (Daimon Hellstrom foe). The Gerber story is set in Atlanta and appears to explain where Man-Thing went at night and is coming back from in the opening splash of M-T #19. The other two stories contained in the fortune teller framework can be assumed to take place after the close of the series.

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Subject: ASM: Assassin Nation

Oct 26, 2007 2:37 pm 
By cweed4

currently- 
PPTSS@ 9/3 
ASM 320 
PPTSS 154 
WOSM 55 
ASM 321- Harry moves? 
ASM 322- MJ has acting audition? 
ASM 323 
ASM 324 
ASM 325 
PPTSS 155- Harry yet to move? 
PPTSS 156 
WOSM@ 5 
WOSM 56- Harry yet to move? 
WOSM 57- MJ decides to try acting? 
PPTSS 157- JJJ announces takeover+steps down 
~ 
ASM 330-FB 
PWJ 14- JJJ still running Bugle? 
PWJ 15- JJJ still running Bugle? 
PPTSS 161 

This stretch of Spidey continuity has a number of subplots running through it. Most notable are: moving from May's house to the Soho loft, Daily Bugle takeover by Puma, and MJ's job hunt. Using these plot points as a guide here is a suggested revision. 

PPTSS@ 9/3 
PPTSS 154- 1st mentions of possible Bugle takeover
WOSM 55
ASM 320- MJ out of work, Harry calls MJ for help to move
PPTSS 155- begins right after hearing phone call about "sick May" from ASM 320, Harry is yet to move
PPTSS 156- continues directly from PPTSS 155, MJ has painting party for new loft (Peter unaware/in Pennsylvania), Puma declares takeover
ASM 321 (pp1-11)- learns about Nathan sick, not May
WOSM 56- Harry calls Peter for help to move
WOSM 57 (pp1-6)- continues directly from WOSM 56
ASM 321 (pp12-30)- Harry moves, Peter finds out about new apt, MJ considers acting
ASM 322- MJ acting audition
ASM 323
ASM 324
ASM 325- still living w/ May
WOSM@ 5
PWJ 14- JJJ still running Bugle, Peter mentions new loft
PWJ 15
WOSM 57 (7-30)- living in new loft 
PPTSS 157 
~ 
ASM 330-FB 
PPTSS 161 

These re-workings assume a few BTS developments to get a continuity that can work. First, that MJ and Harry talk about moving into the new loft before revealing it to Peter as a surprise. Second, that there is a short transition period between Puma's financial takeover and his managerial takeover.

			*	*	*

Thread 12

Subject: Silent War placement

Mar 06, 2007 3:43 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Okay, we are only 2 issues into this mini-series, but how are we going to make this work? The end of Silent War #2 comes after X-Factor #8 and 9, (the Civil War tie-in), but Silent War #1 occurs before the Fantastic Four split up, (as shown in the Civil War mini-series and in the pages of Fantastic Four)...but is that possible? Or are we going to have to rule that the Fantastic Four "banded back together" for a brief interlude, just to take down Gorgon's strike team?

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Mar 06, 2007 3:49 pm 
By Mikhail

Let's wait for FF #543. There may be An Undisclosed Period of Time (TM) after Civil War but before Reed and Sue officially leave the Baxter Building that could be made use of.

			*	*	*

Mar 06, 2007 9:12 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I have a tentative placement of SILENT WAR during CIVIL WAR, at a point after Johnny recovered but before Sue left Reed.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jun 01, 2007 11:28 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

...and then the Mighty Avengers show up in issue 5. 

I have to say that I haven't gone back and re-read the previous 4 issues, but is there a GapTM of time somewhere in this series? The original FF are together at the start, who broke up at the end of Civil War, and the Mighty Avengers are together who didn't form until after Civil War was already over. So... what? Does this take place in the near future after the FF re-form? Is there a Gap in the series? Or am I totally blanking, and the Mighty Avengers formed earlier than I thought?Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Jun 02, 2007 8:16 am 
By Somebody
Director

The MAs were a team for "fourteen minutes" prior to the fight that turned Iron Man into She-Ultron. 

I'm just seeing this as provisionally between FF549 and WWH1, pending the issues to see whether that's viable or not...

			*	*	*

Jun 02, 2007 11:24 am 
By jephyork
Director

Yep, solicits for upcoming FF issues have Reed and Sue returning to the team. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jun 02, 2007 9:20 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

SILENT WAR 4 already contained a clue that this portion of the series occurs after Civil War. In that issue, Stark is Director of SHIELD and Maria Hill is "Commander." SILENT WAR 5 confirms that we're post-CW, but I believe we're only talking about this part of the series. 

In SILENT WAR 3, a reference is made to a trip that Pietro has made "months" into the future in which he saw the destruction of Attilan in a war with the U.S. I believe SILENT WAR 6, which picks up right where SILENT WAR 5 leaves off, is supposed to occur during that point in time, "months" after SILENT WAR 3. 

This suggests that a gap does indeed exist within the series. I have placed this months-long gap between pages 20 and 21 of SILENT WAR 3.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jun 02, 2007 9:44 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
In SILENT WAR 3, a reference is made to a trip that Pietro has made "months" into the future in which he saw the destruction of Attilan in a war with the U.S. I believe SILENT WAR 6, which picks up right where SILENT WAR 5 leaves off, is supposed to occur during that point in time, "months" after SILENT WAR 3.
<<<

Ummm... that's a reference to the end of Son of M #6, nothing that happens within Silent War itself.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
This suggests that a gap does indeed exist within the series. I have placed this months-long gap between pages 20 and 21 of SILENT WAR 3.
<<<

And the conversations between Hill and Prof. Cartright make it clear there's a relatively short time between his exposure and death.

			*	*	*

Jun 27, 2007 8:01 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Well then, that clears some things up. Sort of. 

[spoiler]Attlan is destroyed and all the Inhumans except Black Bolt and Luna fall under Maximus' thrall in Silent War #6. 

Basically, this must be post-WWH now (since Attlan's intact and Medusa's normal in WWH1), and presumably makes the whole series post-WWH. And thus the F4 lineup must be after BP & Storm are done, Reed'n'Sue are back on the team, and they're all back in Pacheco light blue'n'black rather than Byrne black'nwhite.[/spoiler]

			*	*	*

Jun 28, 2007 1:42 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

In addition, Silent War has to happen before recent X-Factor issues. 
[spoiler]Quicksilver loses the terregenesis crystals in X-Factor 20, where he still has them in Silent War.[/spoiler] 
So roughly, we're looking at: 

Civil War 
Current/Recent/Future Fantastic Four 
World War Hulk 
More Future Fantastic Four 
Silent War 
Current/Recent X-Factor 

...right?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Jun 28, 2007 10:37 am 
By Somebody
Director

Then into Messiah Complex. Yep. This may cause some Endangered Species-related fiddliness, but we'll see how that goes.

			*	*	*

Jun 28, 2007 11:56 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

At least Fantastic Four is catching up. This week's issue(547) makes mention that "Attilan has all but declared war with humanity", placing this at least after Son of M 6, and before Silent War 1, where they actually do... if I remember right.(or was that issue 2?) Cross your fingers, hopefully there's no mention of World War Hulk until Classic FF are back...

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Jul 03, 2007 2:24 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

According to writer Mike Carey, all of Endangered Species takes place before X-Men 200. Things are falling into place! 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Jul 06, 2007 9:27 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Dilque":

How does WWH and Silent War fit in continuity? After Silent War, Maximus is the new king of Inhumans, but during Silent War Pietro still has the crystals in his body, which were expelled in the current arc of X-Factor. And, in WWH, Black Bolt still rules Attilan. Are there any explanations for this?

MP: There are explanations, Dilque, and they will be revealed after both events are over. 


They should just refer those questions to us; we've already figured it out. 

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Sep 19, 2007 4:02 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Ah... dear. WWH4 may have thrown a wrench into stuff. 

[spoiler]WWH4 contains a "last month" reference to the opera debacle from Silent War #1 while the Illuminati are having a "list of charges" read against them by a group of civvies....[/spoiler]

			*	*	*

Sep 19, 2007 4:13 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Didn't Paul B. suggest a months long gap somewhere in Silent War? If it's just a reference to issue 1, we may be able to use that gap, even if a gap isn't apparent in a first read through...

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 19, 2007 4:21 pm 
By Somebody
Director

That was because he misread a "months ago" reference to Son of M #6 as a reference to something else in Silent War. The gap doesn't exist, because he was assuming the Terrigenised scientist could linger for months, when there's references in the text (IIRC) to him going downhill and dying within days.

			*	*	*

Sep 19, 2007 6:18 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

All right. Silent War 1 has the opera house mess, followed by Gorgon's arrest.(1-14) Then, Gorgon is interrogated.(15-16) Then, the Inhumans have a meeting where Medusa misinterprets Black Bolt.(17-19) Then, Gorgon is re-exposed to the Terrigen Mists.(20-22) Silent War 2 picks up directly after this, where Luna detects that Gorgon is being exposed to the Mists, which is happening at roughly the same time, and Gorgon breaks loose and the doctor is exposed himself. The rest of the series has to happen closely after this, because humans don't last long after exposure to the Mists. 

WWH 4 has a reference to the opera house mess being last month. 

WWH 1 has to happen before Silent War 6, because Hulk attacks Black Bolt, leader of the Inhumans, on the moon and the Inhumans home is still intact, in WWH 1. Silent War 6 ends with Black Bolt no longer leader of the Inhumans, and their home is destroyed. 

Silent War 2-6 are relatively continuous, because humans don't last long after exposure to the Mists. There can't be a gap inserted into Silent War after a human is exposed. Silent War 2 picks up directly after the end of Silent War 1. Therefore, if a gap is nedded, it has to be somewhere in issue 1 of Silent War. 

Right? 

Silent War 1 (1-14): Opera house, 'last month' in relation to WWH 4. 
WWH? 
Silent War 1 (15-16): Gorgon interrogated. 
WWH? 
Silent War 1 (17-19): Inhumans hold a meeting. 
WWH? 
Silent War 1 (20-22): Gorgon re-exposed, continued directly into next issue. 

We could probably open up a gap somewhere between pg14 & pg20. It's the only place I can see that might work, and it looks like we need a gap somewhere. 

Calendar-wise, I suppose we could put the first portion of Silent War at the end of a month, and WWH at the beginning of the next month, making the opera house stuff 'last month', minimizing the time passed. 

Thoughts?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 19, 2007 6:47 pm 
By Mikhail

My family was killed on October 31st. Today is November 1st. When were they killed? 

Last month.

			*	*	*

Sep 19, 2007 7:25 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
All right. Silent War 1 has the opera house mess, followed by Gorgon's arrest.(1-14) Then, Gorgon is interrogated.(15-16) Then, the Inhumans have a meeting where Medusa misinterprets Black Bolt.(17-19) Then, Gorgon is re-exposed to the Terrigen Mists.(20-22) Silent War 2 picks up directly after this, where Luna detects that Gorgon is being exposed to the Mists, which is happening at roughly the same time, and Gorgon breaks loose and the doctor is exposed himself. The rest of the series has to happen closely after this, because humans don't last long after exposure to the Mists. 

WWH 4 has a reference to the opera house mess being last month. 

WWH 1 has to happen before Silent War 6, because Hulk attacks Black Bolt, leader of the Inhumans, on the moon and the Inhumans home is still intact, in WWH 1. Silent War 6 ends with Black Bolt no longer leader of the Inhumans, and their home is destroyed. 

Silent War 2-6 are relatively continuous, because humans don't last long after exposure to the Mists. There can't be a gap inserted into Silent War after a human is exposed. Silent War 2 picks up directly after the end of Silent War 1. Therefore, if a gap is nedded, it has to be somewhere in issue 1 of Silent War. 

Right? 

Silent War 1 (1-14): Opera house, 'last month' in relation to WWH 4. 
WWH?
Silent War 1 (15-16): Gorgon interrogated. 
WWH?
Silent War 1 (17-19): Inhumans hold a meeting. 
WWH?
Silent War 1 (20-22): Gorgon re-exposed, continued directly into next issue. 

We could probably open up a gap somewhere between pg14 & pg20. It's the only place I can see that might work, and it looks like we need a gap somewhere. 

Calendar-wise, I suppose we could put the first portion of Silent War at the end of a month, and WWH at the beginning of the next month, making the opera house stuff 'last month', minimizing the time passed. 

Thoughts?
<<<

Pretty much got it. 

After rereading SW1, the only way I can see this being vaguely comfortable is if we can take things slightly out of sequence, and read the pages as 1-14, 17-19, 15-16, 20-22 (and it kinda reads like that anyway, since the scene in 17-19 takes longer than the pages which surround it). [NB: For the MCP, this reordering wouldn't make any difference, no characters appear in both 17-19 and 15-16/20-22, and Gorgon doesn't appear in WWH. It would only affect the calendar.] 

In this run of events, the Inhumans would hold a meeting to formulate a response, Black Bolt refuses to countenance an apology, Medusa misunderstands, then they go to their chambers with her embarrassed over her mistake and he kisses her hand. Cut. 

The events of WWH then take place, including Black Bolt's "Trial by Hulk". 

We then pick up Silent War, with the scientist taunting Gorgon, before re-exposing him to the Terrigen Mists. 

On that basis, the cut is between 14 & 15 for Gorgon, and between 19 and issue 2 for Black Bolt, Medusa etc. 

Does that work?

			*	*	*

Sep 20, 2007 6:14 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Calendar-wise, I suppose we could put the first portion of Silent War at the end of a month, and WWH at the beginning of the next month, making the opera house stuff 'last month', minimizing the time passed. 
<<<

Ah, Fury. You remember my telling you that I placed the Hulk invasion on May Day (May 1).  


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
On that basis, the cut is between 14 & 15 for Gorgon, 
<<<

How do we explain Gorgon's interrogator saying on page 15, "...monstrous mutated warriors, like the ones they saw murdering their fellow citizens today"? Of course, he also says "later today our president will make a speech" when the murders at the theater took place at night. How much later into the day can they get?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Sep 20, 2007 8:15 am 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
How do we explain Gorgon's interrogator saying on page 15, "...monstrous mutated warriors, like the ones they saw murdering their fellow citizens today"? Of course, he also says "later today our president will make a speech" when the murders at the theater took place at night. How much later into the day can they get?
<<<

Gorgon's been kept tranqued for days since he was captured, and doesn't know what day it is. Cartwright's playing on that, since it's taken him days to get there with the terrigen crystals, since he was delayed by the ripples of events in Manhattan involving a big green guy. Unfortunately, since it's relatively early morning when he arrives to expose Gorgon to the Mists, he gets confused on the timeline, and thus attributes something which should be "tomorrow" to "today". 

Somewhere along the line (except in the unlikely event Hine's Silent War sequel is set pre-WWH), there needs to be a hole punched in things where a hole wasn't intended to go. The area Fury IDed seems to me to be the "weakest" point, where it'll do least damage.

			*	*	*

Sep 20, 2007 6:34 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
How do we explain Gorgon's interrogator saying on page 15, "...monstrous mutated warriors, like the ones they saw murdering their fellow citizens today"? Of course, he also says "later today our president will make a speech" when the murders at the theater took place at night. How much later into the day can they get?
<<<

The interrogation takes place right around midnight. It's before midnight when he refers to the massacre as having been "today"; it's after midnight when he refers to the speech as being scheduled for "today".

			*	*	*

Sep 20, 2007 11:04 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Ah, Fury. You remember my telling you that I placed the Hulk invasion on May Day (May 1).  
<<<

That's right, buddy!  

Thinking about it, would it be better to put the gap between pg19 & pg20 for everyone? That way, for Gorgon: 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Gorgon's been kept tranqued for days since he was captured, and doesn't know what day it is. Cartwright's playing on that, since it's taken him days to get there with the terrigen crystals, since he was delayed by the ripples of events in Manhattan involving a big green guy.
<<<

And for Black Bolt, he had his meeting, went to go think about it, but got attacked by the Hulk before he had a chance to do anything else.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 21, 2007 7:36 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Thinking about it, would it be better to put the gap between pg19 & pg20 for everyone?
<<<

Works for me. Just one point, though. Stark's report on Attilan in CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT would have to have been written during the small window of time we're creating between SILENT WAR #1 (1-19) and WORLD WAR HULK.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Sep 21, 2007 7:57 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

That shouldn't be much of a problem... Stark can multitask like nobody's business. He probably 'wrote' it using a voice recorder in his armor while doing four other things, while flying around, then his armor typed it up and forwarded it on. 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 21, 2007 8:54 am 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Ah, Fury. You remember my telling you that I placed the Hulk invasion on May Day (May 1).  
<<<

That's right, buddy!  

Thinking about it, would it be better to put the gap between pg19 & pg20 for everyone? That way, for Gorgon: 

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Gorgon's been kept tranqued for days since he was captured, and doesn't know what day it is. Cartwright's playing on that, since it's taken him days to get there with the terrigen crystals, since he was delayed by the ripples of events in Manhattan involving a big green guy.
<<<
<<<

Cartwright's in 15-16 *and* 20-22. It's one scene in two parts. Here's thumbnails of the 15-22 section: 

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2092/silentwar1pg1522thpi2.jpg

Same people, same place, complete continuity between the two segments.

			*	*	*

Sep 21, 2007 6:17 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I think we're suggesting that Cartwright continued the conversation with Gorgon several days later. It's possible that Gorgon could've passed out for a while right after page 16 (pre-WWH), and that after he regained consciousness, Cartwright returned to pick up where he left off on page 20 (post-WWH). Or there could be other reasons (BTS) to interrupt the interrogation and resume at a later date.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Sep 21, 2007 8:31 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
I think we're suggesting that Cartwright continued the conversation with Gorgon several days later.
Right. That would keep the immediacy of Gorgon's interrogation after the attack, and the immediacy of the Inhumans holding a meeting after Gorgon's capture. Putting the break after both of those would do the least damage to the issue, I would think.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 22, 2007 7:25 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Silent War 1 (1-14): Opera house, 'last month' in relation to WWH 4. 

Although it happens to work out that way in the current calendar draft, SILWAR 1 (1-14) doesn't necessarily have to occur the month before WWH 4. Re-check the dialog. Clarinda Roberts says her husband retired last month. She doesn't explicitly say that they went to the theater last month.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 19, 2007 7:20 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
So roughly, we're looking at: 

Civil War
Current/Recent/Future Fantastic Four
World War Hulk
More Future Fantastic Four
Silent War
Current/Recent X-Factor

...right?
<<<

Then into Messiah Complex. Yep. This may cause some Endangered Species-related fiddliness, but we'll see how that goes.
<<<

Right, so, over and above the WWH4/SW1 bit debated over on the last page, one thing. 

FF 550 ends the BP/Storm/Thing/Torch F4 - quite abruptly, in fact - after a straight continuation out of, well, the six-part "Reconstruction" arc (#550's billed as "RC: Epilogue" for some reason). Basically, the same day Reed & Sue set foot back on Earth, T'Challa & Storm quit. Not such a problem, re: WWH, since there's a lot of Stuff for them to pack up, and that might be the day the Hulk hits Earth (where all six are around the Baxter Building), delaying their departure. 

The really fiddly bit is Cable/Deadpool #45-46 (preview) , where BP & Storm are on the team. No less than "Six weeks" (per-#43) after Cable/Deadpool #42/X-Men #200, where X-Men continued directly into X201-203; which seems to be Fabian trying to jump past Messiah CompleX for the present-day scenes. And which would put MCX before WWH... 

[Edit was just to swap preview link for an unwatermarked one]
Last edited by Somebody on Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total. 

			*	*	*

Oct 19, 2007 9:22 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Gotta love those fiddly temporal references.  

Six weeks aside, which may or may not work out, I'd like to say that Cable/Deadpool wraps up before Messiah CompleX. And going by just Storm & Black Panther, it probably wraps up before WWH.(which is most likely before MCX as well) It's a damn shame Cable/Deadpool has to wrap up at all, but there it is. 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Oct 19, 2007 10:07 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Gotta love those fiddly temporal references.  

Six weeks aside, which may or may not work out, I'd like to say that Cable/Deadpool wraps up before Messiah CompleX. 
<<<

In which case, you need to find a space for Wolverine indulging his HYDRA vendetta and Cyclops taking a break to fly out to Ru/stan to play with DP's head in his son's honour between X200 and MCX.

Not saying it's undoable, but I can see why Fabian wanted to make the jump 


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
It's a damn shame Cable/Deadpool has to wrap up at all, but there it is. 
<<<

And what makes it worse is that Fabian said in his last CBR interview that he's jumping ship with #48, two issues early [so we almost certainly won't see him write Cable again].  

Still, I've had the feeling all year that they regret renewing it - maybe it was signed off on for the year before Alonso took on the X-books or something. Renewing it for a year while keeping the co-title character out of it for three-quarters of that time (and two-thirds of THAT being dropped between panels of, or simple repeats of, stuff from another book, meaning only one issue of relative freedom in using the character in the whole year)....

			*	*	*

Oct 19, 2007 10:21 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
maybe it was signed off on for the year before Alonso took on the X-books or something. 
<<<

I think you're on to something there. I remember reading interviews when he first came on where it really seemed as though he wasn't even aware there was already a Cable book. 

I am looking forward to Messiah CompleX, and I do think the franchise needs the good kick in the ass that it's going to get following that, it's just a shame that C/DP has ended up as collateral damage from the fallout. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
In which case, you need to find a space for Wolverine indulging his HYDRA vendetta and Cyclops taking a break to fly out to Ru/stan to play with DP's head in his son's honour between X200 and MCX. 
<<<

Hrm, that slipped my mind. Maybe I need to get my head out of the Golden Age for a bit... 

Speaking of WWH,(kind of) Juggernaut is still with Excalibur when the Hulk attacks the X-Mansion in WWH: X 2 & 3. By the time Excalibur's plot wraps up in issue 24, he's leaving the team... which leads directly into the Die by the Sword mini. I guess the only place for WWH to go for Excalibur is during the gap in time in issue 24.(between pg18 & pg19) Right?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Oct 20, 2007 11:26 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Speaking of WWH,(kind of) Juggernaut is still with Excalibur when the Hulk attacks the X-Mansion in WWH: X 2 & 3. By the time Excalibur's plot wraps up in issue 24, he's leaving the team... which leads directly into the Die by the Sword mini. I guess the only place for WWH to go for Excalibur is during the gap in time in issue 24.(between pg18 & pg19) Right?
<<<

Nowhere fits (and thank you so very much for prompting me to look at those issues...). 

I swear, I think the "panic call" line meant Claremont intended for: 

WWH:X 2 (12:5) 
NExc 24 (21-22) 
WWH:X 2 (13-end) 

This, of course, is nonsense since Captain Britain & Dazzler, in-costume, also got the call. 

However, the alternative is for Juggernaut - after his embracing of Cytorrak's power and "rules", leading to a "Don't look for me, you won't like what you find", in WWH:X 3 [which you'd expect the X-Men to contact Excalibur over] - presumably walking back to England via the seabed just to bugger off when he doesn't have superspeed.

Last edited by Somebody on Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

			*	*	*

Oct 20, 2007 11:51 pm 
By Jason Doty

I think the best placement for Juggernaut in WWH would be between New Excalibur 15 and 16. Nothing suggest he turned bad at the end of WWH, just that he did'nt want Xavier coming after him. So, he leaves, returns to England and 16-24 happen.

			*	*	*

Oct 21, 2007 12:46 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
and thank you so very much for prompting me to look at those issues...
<<<

I do what I can.  


Somebody wrote:
>>>
I swear, I think the "panic call" line meant Claremont intended for: 

WWH:X 2 (12:5) 
NExc 24 (21-22) 
WWH:X 2 (13-end) 

This, of course, is nonsense 
<<<

You're right, that doesn't quite work. 

I suppose we could write off the 'distress call' to a line by Juggernaut to get himself out of there, but why would he unless he just 'embraced the power of Cytorrak?' I dunno, it feels like he's trying to get away because of something recent. Putting WWH between issues 15 & 16 could be considered recent I guess. Maybe I should re-read that Excalibur arc...

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Oct 21, 2007 10:17 am 
By Somebody
Director

Jason Doty wrote:
I think the best placement for Juggernaut in WWH would be between New Excalibur 15 and 16. Nothing suggest he turned bad at the end of WWH, just that he did'nt want Xavier coming after him. So, he leaves, returns to England and 16-24 happen.
Accepting the power of Cytorrak means he's "turned bad", as both WWH:X and NExc 13-15 make clear. 

Okay, now I know the following suggestion is pretty unlikely, but squint and it just about works: 

The "panic call" line in NExc24 doesn't refer to the Cuckoos' distress call in WWH:X 2, but to an off-panel (subconscious?) call from Xavier in WWH:X 1. Juggernaut doesn't get the details, and no-one's watching a telly under the circumstances, so the urgentness doesn't occur to him so much, but he decides to answer. 

The partygoers then, between NExc 24 & DBtS1, ask to see Exc in-costume. They decide to humour them and go to get changed. Juggernaut's the last to get away (because he's going rather than intending to get changed), and only makes it to the stairs as Captain Britain & Dazzler make it down in-costume. They then get the Cuckoos' distress call. Juggernaut runs up the stairs, and into the events of WWH:X. 

Meanwhile, the rest of the team try and put it out their mind, and after taking a bow, go and change back to civvies, and the events of DBtS happen shortly afterward. 

All this is, of course, a long-winded excuse to justify 

JUGGERNAUT/CAIN MARKO 
NEXC 24 
WWH:X 2 
WWH:X 3 

CAPTAIN BRITAIN/BRIAN BRADDOCK and DAZZLER/ALISON BLAIRE 
NEXC 24 
WWH:X 2 
X:DBTS 1 
[...] 

(rest of team) 
NEXC 24 
X:DBTS 1 
[...]

			*	*	*

Oct 21, 2007 3:40 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I don't see a problem with WWH occurring after FF 550. T'Challa and Storm are seen at the Baxter Building in WWH 2, but they could have been there visiting after leaving the team. Or Reed could have called them for help in dealing with the Hulk. There's no reference to suggest the Panther and Ororo are members of the FF or that they live at the Baxter Building in WWH 2. 

I don't (yet) see a problem with WWH occurring after XCAL4 24 (which I've tentatively placed months before WWH). At the end of XCAL4 24, Cain leaves the team to answer a "panic call about an old debt." We don't really know what that refers to yet. It's too awkward to think of it as the WWH:X distress call. For all we know, Cain leaves Excalibur to answer his call, and while he's gone, X:DBTS occurs. After X:DBTS, Cain returns, and he's with the team when WWH:X 2 occurs. That seems to me to be the Occam's Razor solution until it's shown that this can't work.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 21, 2007 4:56 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
I don't see a problem with WWH occurring after FF 550. T'Challa and Storm are seen at the Baxter Building in WWH 2, but they could have been there visiting after leaving the team. Or Reed could have called them for help in dealing with the Hulk. There's no reference to suggest the Panther and Ororo are members of the FF or that they live at the Baxter Building in WWH 2.
<<<

That is, however, leaving you (thanks to Cable/DP, where BP & Storm are very explicitly members) with Messiah CompleX before WWH. Which forces you, thanks to Quicksilver (whose appearance in SW3 *must* be before XF3 17-20, which is before MCX [inc. XF3 25-27], and SW3 may quite probably even need to be before Madrox departs NYC unconscious in a HYDRA van in XF3 14 since he also appears), to push the whole of Silent War to before WWH. Which would require a great big Reset Button to be pushed on the Silent War ending before WWH1. Which relies on David Hine not getting to do his sequel, which he talks about in positive-but-not-yet-definitive-terms here.

Too many dominoes for my liking to start working with that order...

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
I don't (yet) see a problem with WWH occurring after XCAL4 24 (which I've tentatively placed months before WWH). At the end of XCAL4 24, Cain leaves the team to answer a "panic call about an old debt." We don't really know what that refers to yet. It's too awkward to think of it as the WWH:X distress call. For all we know, Cain leaves Excalibur to answer his call, and while he's gone, X:DBTS occurs. After X:DBTS, Cain returns, and he's with the team when WWH:X 2 occurs. That seems to me to be the Occam's Razor solution until it's shown that this can't work.
<<<

DBTS is there to disband these versions of Excalibur & the Exiles so Cornell & Claremont can remould them in their own images. Forgive me if I'm a bit cynical that Dazzler will be anywhere near Captain Britain afterward...

			*	*	*

Oct 21, 2007 7:07 pm 
By Jason Doty

Somebody wrote 
>>>
Accepting the power of Cytorrak means he's "turned bad", as both WWH:X and NExc 13-15 make clear. 
<<<

My suggestion works for all the characters in WWH as far as Excalibur is concerned, without puting a break in any issue. 15 ends the Cytorrak issue and 16 starts the majority of the Albion takes over England storyline, and since Excalibur does not crossover with any other stateside comic in there last arc why the objection to this placement? X-Men: Die by the Sword picks up the very end of Excalibur with no room for a break. And if you decide to put a break in 24, make it during the England recovery rather than the party. Then we can assume he just came back for his stuff before departing again.

			*	*	*

Oct 21, 2007 10:53 pm 
By jephyork
Director

This, Somebody: 
>>>
The really fiddly bit is Cable/Deadpool #45-46 (preview) , where BP & Storm are on the team. No less than "Six weeks" (per-#43) after Cable/Deadpool #42/X-Men #200, where X-Men continued directly into X201-203; which seems to be Fabian trying to jump past Messiah CompleX for the present-day scenes. And which would put MCX before WWH...
<<<

...seems to me to be an unwarranted assumption. 

Do we yet have any evidence that there ISN'T a nice big gap between X-Men #204 and "Messiah Complex", where World War Hulk could go? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Oct 21, 2007 11:03 pm 
By Somebody
Director

You should know by now that I always presume the worst until proven otherwise for future stuff  

"Which seems to be" isn't a definitive statement, merely a working hypothesis which I see as the most-likely-but-far-from-certain outcome. I say in my follow-up that "[I'm n]ot saying it's undoable".

			*	*	*

Oct 22, 2007 6:16 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
That is, however, leaving you (thanks to Cable/DP, where BP & Storm are very explicitly members) with Messiah CompleX before WWH. Which forces you, thanks to Quicksilver (whose appearance in SW3 *must* be before XF3 17-20, which is before MCX [inc. XF3 25-27], and SW3 may quite probably even need to be before Madrox departs NYC unconscious in a HYDRA van in XF3 14 since he also appears), to push the whole of Silent War to before WWH. Which would require a great big Reset Button to be pushed on the Silent War ending before WWH1
<<<

Whoa. You're right, you are presuming the worst. First, we could ignore or reinterpret the temporal reference to "six weeks." After all, this is a CABLE title we're talking about, and "pulling a Cable" has become synonymous with reinterpreting temporal references. C&DP 45-46 could occur before FF 550, which could occur before WWH, which could occur before Messiah Complex. And there may be a gap between X 204 and Complex. Let's wait and see.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 24, 2007 1:16 pm 
By JD

jephyork wrote:
Do we yet have any evidence that there ISN'T a nice big gap between X-Men #204 and "Messiah Complex", where World War Hulk could go?
Well, X-MEN #204 has everyone standing around, licking their wounds, trying to make plans, and generally waiting for Messiah CompleX to happen (some of the villains even complain about having to wait for so long while doing nothing). I don't see much trouble with placing WWH inbetween (before the last few pages with the cliffhanger, of course). 

Especially since none of Rogue's team appears in WWH:X-Men (Rogue is on #3's cover, but thankfully nowhere inside) : even Iceman is strangely missing...

			*	*	*

Oct 24, 2007 5:21 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

JD wrote:
>>>
I don't see much trouble with placing WWH inbetween (before the last few pages with the cliffhanger, of course). 
<<<

I agree with that. For the most part, it looks like all decks have been cleared for Messiah CompleX. The one glaring exception I can think of is W3 50-55, where Wolverine kills Sabretooth. It can't occur before X-Men 200-204, because he's dead and can't appear there afterwards. It can't happen during, because Rogue is captured and held by Mr. Sinister until sometime during Messiah CompleX. So we either need to splice up W3 50-55*, or wait until after Messiah CompleX for Rogue to be at the mansion to run into Wolverine in the hallway.(the problem with that: Sabretooth is namechecked in X 204, citing his betrayal to the team. I really, really can't see him lounging around the mansion watching the spice channel with everyone knowing about that bit) 

*It's not pretty, but the only spot that's remotely plausible to me is between W3 51 & W3 52. Storm breaks up the fight between Logan & Creed at the end of W3 51. BTS, Storm returns Sabretooth to the X-Men. A bunch of stuff happens.(various issues of X-Men, whatever else, up through X 204 pg18) Somehow, BTS, Sabretooth is found in the ocean after he's kicked off Providence and is being held in Wakanda. BTS, Logan is called over to hang out and chat about evolution... and hey! we've found Sabertooth, too. That's where W3 52-55 pick up. 

I think these are our two options. Knock a gaping uncomfortable hole in W3 50-55, or wait until Messiah CompleX ends and hope against the odds that this can work as a whole afterwards. Either way, we're going to have to explain something BTS. 

As for Excalibur & WWH, after re-erading about half the run, I still think the best place is between pg18 & pg19 of Excalibur 24. As Somebody said earlier, the point of Die by the Sword is to clean the slates for both the Exiles & Excalibur relaunches. I think it's highly unlikely that Excalibur will have the same roster after that's finished, so in all likelihood WWH will have to be before that. During the gap in issue 24 seems to me to be the best place. 

Thoughts?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Oct 25, 2007 6:10 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Regarding Sabretooth -- maybe one of them was a Skrull??  

Looking at this week's Previews, I see that Brian and Sage are with the revamped Exiles. So I agree with putting a gap between pages 18 and 19 of XCAL4 24. There may have been some weeks or even months of rebuilding and recovering from Albion's devastating attack on Britain, and the big celebration at the end of the issue could mark the conclusion of recovery -- the country is back on track and that's the ultimate victory over Albion. WWH:X would go in this gap, and the end result of Cain's pact with Cyttorak in WWH:X is...anti-climactic.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 25, 2007 6:38 am 
By Somebody

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
WWH:X would go in this gap, and the end result of Cain's pact with Cyttorak in WWH:X is...anti-climactic.
<<<

This, I do not like. 

Seriously, what odds next time Juggernaut turns up, he's not back in his traditional modus operandi? You're assuming a U-turn on a clearly-expressed intention for where Juggernaut's character currently is (and, presumably, willing to assume a third U-turn if a book does indeed pick up where WWH:X left him). 

It's the reason I proposed that convoluted scenario back on the last page to get WWH:X 3 after NEXC 24 (and, as a result, effectively simultaneous with X:DBtS 1). While it's obviously not ideal, I don't have a serious problem with crowbarring open the gap in NExc24 to "months" on the calendar, but I do feel that WWH:X 3 should be Juggernaut's last to-date appearance.

			*	*	*

Oct 25, 2007 10:56 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Regarding Sabretooth -- maybe one of them was a Skrull??  
<<<

Maybe. I see the winky, of course, but it's been said that when the Skrull event comes to a head in the big miniseries next year that everyone who's been replaced will be revealed, and when it happened. So while it's possible that Sabretooth has been Skrulled, for some reason I doubt it. We'd be better off saying one of them was vacationing from Earth-A, but I don't see how someone like Sabretooth, who's older than Wolverine, could still be alive on Earth-A(a place with no superpowers) to vacation here. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
I do feel that WWH:X 3 should be Juggernaut's last to-date appearance.
<<<

I see your point, and agree with it to a degree. But, could it be that Juggernaut is just there in the last few pages to get his stuff? He does seem to be in a hurry, and doesn't seem to want to talk much. But... 

'Embracing the power of the Cytorrak' means turning evil. He's had that power before and could be around people, why is now any different? Unless he never really embraced it before, I guess. Well, all right... You've convinced me. We could chalk up the costumes to artistic interpretation on DiVito's part, or the party requested costumes BTS or something. But yeah, that's a lotta U-Turns. 

As long as we're here, could the weeks long/months long gap in Excalibur 24 be where the Wisdom mini goes? London is destroyed there too, and Captain Britain shows up at the end. Maybe they're cleaning up from Albion & the Wisdom mini...

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Oct 26, 2007 6:19 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
As long as we're here, could the weeks long/months long gap in Excalibur 24 be where the Wisdom mini goes? London is destroyed there too, and Captain Britain shows up at the end. Maybe they're cleaning up from Albion & the Wisdom mini...
<<<

Maybe. I haven't read it, but Paul O. is assigned to do an analysis of the Wisdom series. Or perhaps it goes between XCAL4 15 and 16? 

I'm readjusting XCAL4 16-24 on the calendar. Sometimes placement begins with publication order, but then long story arcs force me to move an entire span of issues based on subsequent references in the arc. This seems to be the case here. As long as I keep XCAL4 16 (11-23) before UX 486 (1-22), based on the reference to Xavier being in space in XCAL4 16. AND, I place WWH:X 2 between XCAL4 24 (19-22) and X:DBTS 1. 

Somebody makes a good point about what is likely intended to be the new status quo for Cain. WH:X should be Cain's most recent appearance. However, I don't like conflating Cain's attempted departure in XCAL4 24 and his abrupt departure in WWH:X 2. It just doesn't fit well. 

How about this... 

It's evening in London when Cain attempts to depart in XCAL4 24 (19-22). He's already decided to leave the team (temporarily) to deal with a "panic call about an old debt" (whatever that is). Brian convinces him to stay for the rest of the party. 

Following the party, the team suits up (fill in a reason), but not Cain, since he's supposed to be leaving. In WW:X 2, Cain does wear a different set of civilian clothes, though; maybe he spilled beer and food all over his duds from XCAL4 24 (19-22). By this time it's evening in New York (it was dusk in WWH:X 1). The Hulk distress call comes in and Cain rushes back to his room (which he didn't intend to leave permanently) to grab the Cyttorak gem and make his pact so he could go beat up Hulk.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 26, 2007 7:17 am 
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Maybe. I haven't read it, but Paul O. is assigned to do an analysis of the Wisdom series. Or perhaps it goes between XCAL4 15 and 16?
<<<

I was under the impression that it was pre-Decimation, actually. But it's been months since I've read it, so I could be mistaken.

			*	*	*

Oct 26, 2007 9:59 am 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
We'd be better off saying one of them was vacationing from Earth-A, but I don't see how someone like Sabretooth, who's older than Wolverine, could still be alive on Earth-A(a place with no superpowers) to vacation here. 
<<<

Yeah, well explain how Wiccan & Hulkling can even exist there and we'll call it even 


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
'Embracing the power of the Cytorrak' means turning evil. He's had that power before and could be around people, why is now any different?
<<<

Oh, he can be "around people" without having to Smash Stuff 24/7. But I think moving back in with a superhero team - especially for an extended time, as was being suggested - would stretch Cyty's patience a little far, yes? If NExc15 is any indication, what he'll be wanting Cain to do straight after WWH:X 3 will be a bit... brutal.

Blame Chuck Austen. He's the one that started the whole depowering thing 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
How about this...

It's evening in London when Cain attempts to depart in XCAL4 24 (19-22). He's already decided to leave the team (temporarily) to deal with a "panic call about an old debt" (whatever that is). Brian convinces him to stay for the rest of the party.

Following the party, the team suits up (fill in a reason), but not Cain, since he's supposed to be leaving. In WW:X 2, Cain does wear a different set of civilian clothes, though; maybe he spilled beer and food all over his duds from XCAL4 24 (19-22). By this time it's evening in New York (it was dusk in WWH:X 1). The Hulk distress call comes in and Cain rushes back to his room (which he didn't intend to leave permanently) to grab the Cyttorak gem and make his pact so he could go beat up Hulk.
<<<

But the party continues into X:DBtS1, and I'm pretty sure there are references to the effect that, yes, same party (I'm not reading that again any time soon though, and you can't make me!), when Psylocke and Exiles-Tbird turn up while it's still going on to kick that whole mess off.

			*	*	*

Oct 26, 2007 6:30 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
But the party continues into X:DBtS1, and I'm pretty sure there are references to the effect that, yes, same party 
<<<

I think it's easier to interpret the parties in XCAL4 24 and X:DBTS 1 as two different parties, separated by a period of time, allowing XX:H 2 to occur without the constant clothes changing. 

Compare clothing in the two parties. Talia is wearing the same outfit, but Brian, Alison, and Sage wear different outfits. Heck, even Pete Wisdom is wearing different clothes in the two parties. Let's let artist interpretation work to our benefit for once!  

I interpret the first party as a smaller one organized by Excalibur and the latter one as one venue, hosted by Excalibur, of a larger national celebration. The first is thrown after Excalibur helped with the immediate aftermath of Albion's attack; the second is organized on a larger scale with more lead time and thrown once "full" recovery was achieved. 

I couldn't find anything in the dialog or narrative of the issues involved that indicates that there is one and only one party. I won't make you read those issues again, though, Somebody...take my word for it! 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Subject: Lt. Keating/Foreigner

Oct 23, 2007 11:40 am 
By rhod

I remember a thread ages ago about the Foreigner's impersonation of Lt. Kris Keating and how long it had been going on, but I can't remember it reaching a satisfactory conclusion. 
It seems like at the moment everything's listed under Foreigner, giving his first appearance as Defenders 65, but he was actually in defenders earlier than that, in issue 44 at least, though I'm sure I saw him more than once when I read Essential Defenders v3 recently. 

Obviously, there is a question then of whether this is the Foreigner or really Kris Keating. Any thoughts?

"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

			*	*	*

Oct 23, 2007 5:36 pm 
By John Simons

My recollection, from Peter Parker 129, is that Foreigner killed Keating, and that he used the Keating identity to train new agents. So unless a subsequent issue clarified the situation, I have no idea how one would determine which appearences might be the real Keating pre-assassination, Foreigner, or a trainee assassin working for Foreigner...

"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

			*	*	*

Oct 26, 2007 9:53 pm 
By cweed4

JS is correct. In addition, during his revelation at the end of PPTSS 129, Foreigner states that he met Keating "several years ago" and has used "some two dozen men" to impersonate him. While not proof, it does suggest that the real Keating has never actually appeared. 

Also, the Marvel website does list the 1st appearance for "Keating" as Def 44. I don't have that comic but it might needed to be verified and updated for his chronology.

			*	*	*

Oct 26, 2007 10:09 pm 
By Enda80

I would check the thought balloons of "Keating" in his/their early appearances-if any of them suggest thoughts that the Foreigner or one of his underlings would never have ("I remember when I was a rookie on the force, just out of the police academy, I remembered how the legends of Greenberg and Hantz, Serpico, Eddie Egan, and all those neo-classic policeman got so many of us to join the force") then the presumption shifts to an appearance by the true Keating.

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Mar 29, 2007 8:28 am 
By mal32

Hi, 

this is the first time I post here, and I am Italian, so forgive me if I do mistakes, please. 

I posted a similar thread in http://www.marvel.com but nobody helped me in this. I know here there are the demi-gods of the continuity and I hope there is somebody who can help. 

Years ago, until 2000, Marvel posted on his site beautiful new and original stories, the Marvel Cybercomics. 

on this page: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_CyberComics 

it is possible to see everything about these stories. 

My question is: is there a possibility to find these stories now. 

Do you think is possible Marvel "reprint" them or repost them another time on their site? 

I see they are posting normal comics on the "Digital Comics" section and I hope they can repost the Cybercomics, too. 

I would like to ask this to Marvel.com too but I had problems to communicate with them. 

Is there somebody who can help me, please??? 

Thank you very much. 
Ciao (Hi) from Italy

			*	*	*

Mar 29, 2007 8:35 am 
By Somebody
Director

You'd probably be better asking at 

http://www.marvel.com/blogs/pete/ or http://www.marvel.com/boards/

			*	*	*

Mar 29, 2007 8:59 am 
By mal32

Thank you for the help. 
I already tried with the boards and I will try with the other one. 

But I forgot an important thing: the Gambit Cybercomics is in continuity (canon) too. 
Because "Gambit: The Hunt for the Tomorrow Stone (December 27, 1999) Was the first CyberComic referred to in a printed comic (in the pages of Gambit #12)" 

So this means all the other Cybercomics can be canon too.

			*	*	*

Mar 29, 2007 9:41 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

We treat the cyber comics on a case-by-case basis, and I believe the Gambit book is already listed here. 


watching: return of the pink panther

			*	*	*

Mar 29, 2007 10:15 am 
By mal32

I see. 
Thank you for your kind reply but I asked help to find a way to have the Cyber Comics, if possible.

			*	*	*

Mar 29, 2007 11:57 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Right. I understand what you're asking, and am afraid I don't have the answer.

My post was in reply to the comment you made here:

mal32 wrote:
>>>
But I forgot an important thing: the Gambit Cybercomics is in continuity (canon) too. 

So this means all the other Cybercomics can be canon too.
<<<

Sorry for any confusion. 

watching: field of dreams

			*	*	*

Mar 29, 2007 2:19 pm 
By mal32

It is me to be sorry, I am sure I was not clear.  
I know this wonderful site's task and for me all of you make an incredible, great job. 
Maybe my thread is not the best, but if I cannot find help here I don't know where I could go... 
Thank you very much for your patience and help

			*	*	*

Mar 29, 2007 3:30 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Your thread is fine, and your English is much better than my Italian.  


watching: cold case files

			*	*	*

Mar 30, 2007 10:16 am 
By jephyork
Director

I'd like to see these re-released or collected in print at some point too. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 30, 2007 5:17 pm 
By mal32

>>>
I'd like to see these re-released or collected in print at some point too. 
<<<

Me too, of course. 
I tried to ask it to Marvel but I don't know why I had problems to write them. 
Could you ask it to Marvel for me, please? 
Maybe if we all together ask it to them, they will do it. Who knows? 
Thank you 

			*	*	*

Apr 01, 2007 6:49 am 
By mal32

What is happened? 
I see that instead the word "M a r v e l" there is word "DC" in all my thread. 
I don't understand  
I had to write 
M a r v e l 
now because if I write it in the normal way it appears "DC"!!!

			*	*	*

Apr 01, 2007 9:51 am 
By Somebody
Director

I suspect an April Fool's joke... could be worse. Last year the place was "getting shut down". 

Although, when this gets fixed, what about the references that were MEANT to be to D.C., a subdivision of Warner Bros, Admin?....

			*	*	*

Apr 01, 2007 12:53 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Have faith.

			*	*	*

Apr 01, 2007 1:04 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Looks fine on my screen, mal32 -- the problem might be in your browser software. Do you have some kind of obscenity-filtering or child-protection software installed? 

-Jeph

			*	*	*

Apr 02, 2007 12:57 pm 
By mal32

Now everything is normal, thank you. I forgot about April Fool!!!

			*	*	*

Sep 27, 2007 11:18 am 
By mal32

Hi everybody. 
forgive me but may I ask if there is somebody now knowing something about where to find the Marvel CyberComics, please... 
They are very important for me and I always hope I can find them... 
Thank you for your patience... 

			*	*	*

Oct 29, 2007 4:03 pm 
By mal32

I am sorry to disturb everybody another time. 
I see that finding the Marvel CyberComics is very hard... 
but I never give up the hope. 
Thank you to allow me to post my request here

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Subject: Cable & Deadpool 45

Sep 26, 2007 11:50 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Cable & Deadpool #45 
Published: November, 2007 

Appearances: 
Deadpool, Bob Agent of HYDRA, Captain America, Bucky, Weasel, Agent X, Outlaw, Sandi, Arnim Zola, Storm, Black Panther, Thing, Human Torch II 

Synopsis: 
Pg0: Bobs blog-themed recap page 
Pg1-pg11: WWII 
Deadpool & Bob Agent of HYDRA appear in the middle of a battle between Captain America & Bucky and German troops. After the Nazis are defeated, Cap reveals he & Bucky are after Arnim Zola and Deadpool agrees to tag along.(because he may have a time travel machine to get them back to their own time) They make their way through a destroyed town and find Zolas lab. 
Pg12: now 
Weasel & the Agency X gang are trying to locate Deadpool & Bob who are lost in the time stream. Weasels equipment isnt the best though 
Pg13-pg19: WWII 
Cap, Bucky, Deadpool, & Bob find Zola in his lab and attack. Zola unleashes his experiment on them and runs off, Bob follows. Cap, Bucky, & Deadpool overpower the experiment, who asks them to kill him. Deadpool does, and Bucky shoots Deadpool. Bob rushes to Deadpool and they disappear. 
Pg20-pg21 
Weasel & the Agency X gang are at the Baxter Building, where the Black Panther has allowed them to use some of the Fantastic Fours equipment to locate Deadpool & Bob. After an apparently unsuccessful attempt to bring them back, the Fantastic Four offer their help. 

References: 
Present Day: 
Continued more-or-less directly from last issue, probably the day after. An unspecified amount of time passes between pg12 & pg20, but its probably the same day. Black Panther & Storm are at the Baxter Building and in charge of the team, so this would most likely go before Reed & Sue return, and almost definitely before World War Hulk. 

World War Two: 
This is time travel, not a Flashback, so Cap's & Bucky's appearances here are just 'regular' appearances. 

Captain America & Bucky are fighting German troops on their own, no Allied or American troops are present. Its not said where, but since Zolas lab is nearby its probably Germany. 

Zola is in his new body here.(ESP box head, face in torso) That would place this after Super Villain Team-Up 17-FB, where hes still human. 

Bucky is suspicious of Bob from the start, probably because of his HYDRA uniform.(he keeps asking what the H stands for) Cap gives them the benefit of the doubt. A few temporal hiccups cause Cap & Bucky to forget a few details along the way, and eventually the whole mess by the time Deadpool & Bob disappear. 

For those interested in such things, I have this on 15 March, 1945. 

Some placement suggestions: 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
 
WS: WK 1-FB (12/24/44) 
*C&DP 45 
CA: SL2 12 (23-29)-FB 
 

BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN BUCKY BARNES 
 
WS: WK 1-FB (12/24/44) 
*C&DP 45 
CA: SL2 12 (23-29)-FB 
 

ZOLA, ARNIM 
XF@ 3/3-FB 
SVTU 17-FB 
*C&DP 45 
FURY 1-FB 
SM: FI-FB 
{CA 208} 
 

For the main cast, following last issue. For the Fantastic Four, see above.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 28, 2007 5:59 pm 
By Enda80

Didn't the Invaders already face Hydra in a Roger Stern story? Captain Savage even reported Strucker's control of the group after an encounter with State Shinto Militarists the Samurai Squad.

			*	*	*

Sep 28, 2007 7:07 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Yup. However, the Hydra suits of the '40s look different from the suit that Bob is wearing. It's still green, but there's not a giant yellow H on his chest... just a little H button. Also, there's this: 

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Bucky is suspicious of Bob from the start, probably because of his HYDRA uniform.(he keeps asking what the H stands for) Cap gives them the benefit of the doubt. A few temporal hiccups cause Cap & Bucky to forget a few details along the way, and eventually the whole mess by the time Deadpool & Bob disappear. 
<<<

The Fabe covered his tracks! 

And the story you're thinking of is Marvel Universe 1-3.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Oct 09, 2007 11:29 am 
By wolframbane

Is there any indication that thiscould even possibly be the 2nd Cap and Bucky?

			*	*	*

Oct 09, 2007 11:49 am 
By Somebody
Director

Absolutely not. Bucky even calls Cap "Steve."

			*	*	*

Oct 09, 2007 8:34 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

What he said.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Subject: October call for analyses

Oct 02, 2007 8:44 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Another month, another call. Hope I got things right this time, but I can count on y'all to straighten me out if I don't. If you've been itching to do an analysis, sign up for those story arcs without names. And if your name is listed and you find you can't do it, I'm sure there are others just waiting to sink their teeth into your assignments.  Just let us know. Continued thanks to all our contributors!  


Completed stories (as of 9/30/07) 
Agents of Atlas #1-6 (Eric) 
Books of Doom #1-6 (Eric) 
Daredevil v2 #95-99 
Daredevil: Battlin Jack Murdock #1-4 
Daughters of the Dragon #1-6 (JD) 
Eternals v3 #1-7 (Eric) 
Ghost Rider: Trail of Tears #1-6 (JLH) 
Mystic Arcana: Black Knight (JLH) 
Mystic Arcana: Scarlet Witch (JLH) 
Underworld #1-5 (Aaron) 
Wisdom #1-6 (Paul O.) 
X-23: Target X #1-6 (Paul O.) 

Future stuff 
Annihilation: Conquest #1-6 (JLH) 
Annihilation: Conquest  Quasar #1-4 (JLH) 
Annihilation: Conquest  Star-Lord #1-4 (Somebody) 
Annihilation: Conquest  Wraith #1-4 (JLH) 
Daredevil v2 #101-105 
Daredevil Annual v2 #1 
Foolkiller v2 #1-5 
Franklin Richards: Fall Football Fiasco 
Ghost Rider v5 #14-19 (JLH) 
Ghost Rider Annual v2 #1 (JLH) 
House of M: Avengers #1-5 
Howard the Duck v? #1-4 (JLH) 
Hulk vs. Fin Fang Foom 
Immortal Iron Fist #10-14 (Don) 
Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin #1-6 
Marvel Holiday Special 
Moon Knight Annual #1 
Mystic Arcana: Sister Grimm (JD) 
Nova v4 #8-? (Somebody) 
Omega the Unknown v2 #1-10 
Punisher v7 #51-54 (Col_Fury) 
Runaways v2 #25-30 (JD) 
Silver Surfer: In Thy Name #1-4 
Spider-Man Family #5 (JLH) 
Spider-Man Family #6 (JLH) 
Spider-Man/Red Sonja #1-4 
Wolverine v3 #57-? (Col_Fury) 
Wolverine: Firebreak 
Wolverine: Origins #19-20 (Col_Fury) 
Zombie: Simon Garth #1-4

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:15 pm, edited 6 times in total. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 03, 2007 1:25 am 
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Daughters of the Dragon #1-6
<<<

I volunteered for those.


>>>
Mystic Arcana: Sister Grimm (JD)
<<<

Not out yet.


>>>
Daredevil v2 #101-?
<<<

DD2 100 is labeled as "Part 1 of 6", so this would be #100-105. Of course, it's just the continuation of the previous arc...

			*	*	*

Oct 03, 2007 6:07 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, JD. I made the requested changes to the call. I use Marvel Previews as my guide for release dates, but of course some comics get postponed. I picked up DD2 100 and should have noticed the "part 1 of 6" notation; I don't plan to pick up the remainder of the arc.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 10, 2007 7:11 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

You can put me down for Wolverine: Firebreak. Also, I'm kind of surprised that you're not getting Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin #1-6, Paul. You picked up both Earth's Mightiest Heroes, and this is basically the same thing... just Iron Man instead of all the Avengers. In any case, I'm getting it and enjoying it, so I can do this as well.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Subject: Calendar; Franklin Richards: Monster Mash 1

Oct 10, 2007 10:36 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Franklin Richards: Monster Mash #1 
Published: November, 2007 

Appearances: 
Franklin, H.E.R.B.I.E., 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg5 
Franklin wants to go to the Himalayas to prove that the Abominable Snowman exists, so he and H.E.R.B.I.E. teleport there. Franklin drops the teleporters remote control unnoticed by H.E.R.B.I.E.. They come across a Yeti and run off, but it follows them and returns the remote control. Franklin realizes that the Yeti is lonely, so they play and get into a snowball fight. 

References: 
All in one day. 

Its in the high 90s (Fahrenheit) in New York, and its a school day. 

Franklin Richards: Monster Mash #1/2 

Appearances: 
Franklin, H.E.R.B.I.E., Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Thing, Human Torch II, Roberta(robot receptionist) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5 
Franklin belches at dinner and is excused without dessert. Franklin tries to find out whats wrong with him by using an X-Ray machine, but accidentally bombards himself with Beta-Rays, which turns him into a purple monster. He rampages though the house until the Baxter Buildings sensors detect high levels of radiation and de-radiate him. Franklin them apologizes to his mom for his behavior at dinner. 

References: 
All in one day. 

Franklin Richards: Monster Mash #1/3 

Appearances: 
Franklin, H.E.R.B.I.E., Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5 
Mr. Fantastic & the Invisible Woman leave for a date, and Franklin starts to use his dads interdimensional phase shifter to look for ghosts. He contacts some and they try to hold him hostage, but H.E.R.B.I.E. saves him. However, the incident has altered Franklins perception and now he can see spirits. 

References: 
All in one night. 

Franklin Richards: Monster Mash #1/4 

Appearances: 
Franklin, H.E.R.B.I.E., Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Thing, Human Torch II, 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg5 
The Fantastic Four return from an extra-dimensional alien-fighting adventure. Franklin asks if the aliens followed them back and Mr. Fantastic explains that they cant, he sealed the dimensional rift with a device he made. Franklin asks if they can use it on the monster under his bed but no one believes him. That night the monster attacks and Franklin uses his dads device on it. 

References: 
All in one night. 

Franklin Richards: Monster Mash #1/5 

Appearances: 
Franklin, H.E.R.B.I.E., Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Thing, Human Torch II, Mole Man-BTS 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg5 
The Fantastic Four leave to fight the Mole Man and Franklin is upset that he cant come along. He uses his dads lab to give himself some powers, but he cant control them so he has them removed. 

References: 
All in one day. 

A news flash on the television alerted the FF to the Mole Man, but he doesnt make an appearance, giving him a BTS.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Subject: Calendar; Wolverine Annual 1

Oct 11, 2007 3:43 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine Annual #1 
the Death Song of J. Patrick Smitty 
Published: December, 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), and a bunch of other folks who are all killed, never have been seen before and never will be seen again. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: now 
Wolverine attacks and kills a roomful of criminals while Patrick watches. 
Pg3-FB: years ago, autumn; Pats about 8 
A young Patrick Smitty comes home from school. His drunk father yells at his crack-smoking mom and beats up Patrick. 
Pg4-FB: that weekend, on Sunday 
Patrick and his parents go to church. 
Pg5-FB: a few years later; Pats about 12 
Patrick and a buddy steal some beer from a convenience store. That night he confesses at church. 
Pg6pn1-pg6pn2-FB: a few years later; Pats about 15 
Patrick steals some records. Later, he confesses. 
Pg6pn3-pg6pn4-FB: a few years later; Pats about 16 
Patrick steals a purse. Later, he confesses. 
Pg6pn5-pg6pn8(of 8)-FB: a few years later; Pats about 17 
Patrick steals a stereo from a house. Later, he confesses. 
Pg7-FB: the day after pg6pn8 
Patrick sells the stereo he stole. 
Pg8-FB: some time later; Pats about 18 
Patrick wakes up and gives a homeless guy some money. 
Pg9pn1-pg9pn4-FB: some time later; Pats probably still 18 
Patrick hooks up with a group planning on pulling some bank heists. 
Pg9pn5-FB: after their seventh heist 
Patrick and the gang count some money. Tomorrow will be their eighth heist. 
Pg9pn6(of 6)-pg19-FB: the next day 
Patrick and the gang prepare for their next heist. Meanwhile, Wolverine wanders around town and is given a flower by an old lady. Patrick and the gang burst out of their van and push the old lady over, killing her when her head hits the curb. They proceed into the bank and when one of their masks rip, they kill everyone inside. Wolverine comes back to check on the ruckus and finds the old lady, then follows the gang back to their place. He confronts one about the old lady, and stabs him in the head. He then starts in on the rest of them. 
->this is where pg1-pg2 goes<- 
Pg20-pg23 
Wolverine finishes killing everyone but Patrick. He tells Patrick to warn the rest of his group, and he does. Patricks boss tells him not to worry about it, and he goes home. 
Pg24-pg29: the next day 
Patricks boss stops by and together they go to take care of Tarell, who they think might go to the cops. When they arrive at the factory Tarell works at Wolverine attacks, but he falls into a vat of molten metal, melting off his flesh. Oops. 
Pg30-pg35: one week later 
Now healed, Wolverine kills Patricks boss, then Patrick. 
Pg36: the next day 
Wolverine wanders around town. 

References: 
This was solicited as Wolverine Annual: Deathsong #1, but neither the cover nor indicia have Deathsong on or in them. Ill suggest the abbreviation W@ 1. 

In pg3-FB, Patrick has a poster of the Hulk in his room. It really doesnt matter, but I thought Id mention it anyway. 

The present day stuff is jacket weather. After Wolverine has healed from falling in molten metal(pg30-pg35) its raining outside. By the time hes wandering around town again, its no longer raining. 

Wolverine is wearing his Astonishing uniform here.(the boots are off, but hey. Whatever) 

This really could go anywhere in Wolverines current chronology. Ill suggest between W3 55 & 56, but how that falls with his X-Book appearances, his Avengers appearances, and everything else Im not too sure.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Oct 11, 2007 3:24 pm 
By wolframbane

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Ill suggest the abbreviation W@ 1.
<<<

I think this is Wolverine volume 3, so maybe W3 @ 1

			*	*	*

Oct 11, 2007 4:03 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Annuals - as a result of stuff like the recent third X-Men Annual #1 - get numbered separately. If there's been a Wolverine Annual #1 before, it'll be W@2 1.

			*	*	*

Oct 11, 2007 8:53 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Right. Most of the Hulk annuals were published during the second volume of Hulk, but since it was the first volume of the annuals, they're given the notation "H@ 1", and so on. 


watching: florida state vs wake forest

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

Oct 11, 2007 9:39 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine has had annuals in the past, but they were the 'year' annuals... W@ '98, W@ '99, etc. As far as I can tell, this is Wolverine's first Annual #1.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Oct 11, 2007 11:51 pm 
By dimadick

The Handbook of Marvel creators gives the following Annuals for Wolverine: 

*Wolverine Annual '95 
*Wolverine Annual '96 
*Wolverine Annual '97 
*Wolverine Annual '99 
*Wolverine Annual 2000 
*Wolverine Annual 2001 

Which would mean mean this is actually his seventh annual but only the first to get a series numbering.

			*	*	*

Oct 12, 2007 9:12 am 
By Somebody
Director

Plus Bloodlust, which the GCD lists as "Wolverine Annual: Bloodlust".

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Subject: Misc. Timely stuff

Oct 13, 2007 1:22 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Human Torch #2/3 

Appearances: 
Falcon(Carl Burgess) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2pn4 
Assistant District Attorney Carl Burgess wraps up for the day and is confronted by Mrs. Bankhead. Her husband has received an extortion note demanding $50,000, so they go to her place. 
Pg2pn5-pg3pn1-FB: earlier that day 
Gangsters kidnap Mr. Bankhead. 
Pg3pn2-pg7pn4 
They find a note demanding $50,000 for the return of Mr. Bankhead. Carl turns into the Falcon and finds the gangsters at the rendezvous point. He beats the tar out of them and frees Mr. Bankhead. 
Pg7pn5-pg7pn7: the next day 
At the courthouse, Assistant D.A. Burgess puts mob boss Peterson away for good. 

Human Torch #2/4 

Appearances: 
Microman(Jimmy Everett), Mr. Schmidt 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6 
Jimmy Everett is bored so he visits Mr. Schmidt the chemist. Mr. Schmidt sends Jimmy out to buy him some smokes, but when he returns Mr. Schmidt has fallen asleep. Jimmy drinks some chemicals lying around and shrinks to microscopic size. After some wandering around, Mr. Schmidt finally wakes up and restores Jimmy to his natural size. 

Human Torch #2/5 

Appearances: 
Mantor the Magician 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8 
Mantor the Magician saves a woman from drowning, and they go to her place and look for hidden treasure. After being attacked by ghosts, Mantor discovers theyre actually the butler and his brother. 

Human Torch #2/6 

Appearances: 
Fiery Mask(Dr. Jack Castle), Dr. Sendach 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6pn1 
Special Officer Dr. Jack Castle is called to the police station to investigate a slew of bloodless corpses that have been popping up. He makes some phone calls, then investigates as the Fiery Mask. After setting a trap, he tries to stop a man stealing blood, but hes attack by a hoard of bloodless men and is knocked unconscious. 
Pg6pn2-pg10: next day 
The Fiery Mask is awoken by Nurse Julie. That night he tracks down the man responsible for the bloodless men: Dr. Sendach, eminent stomach specialist. Hes been conducting experiments involving mechanical organs, but he ran out of blood. After a fight the experimental humans attack and devour Dr. Sendach, and later, the Fiery Mask blows up Sendachs house. 

Human Torch #3 
All stories have been covered elsewhere for this issue. 

Human Torch #4 
All stories have been covered elsewhere for this issue, but the Patriot is in the fourth story, not the first, and his chronology should be adjusted to reflect this. 

Human Torch #5/A 
All stories have been covered elsewhere for this issue, but the Patriot is in the fourth story, not the first, and his chronology should be adjusted to reflect this. 

Some placement suggestions: 

FALCON/CARL BURGESS 
HUMAN TORCH 2/3 
(since this guy came first, everyone else should be bumped up a notation following) 

FIERY MASK/DR. JACK CASTLE 
HUMAN TORCH 2/6 

PATRIOT/JEFF MACE 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 21 
HUMAN TORCH 4/4
HUMAN TORCH 5A/4 
HUMAN TORCH 5B 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 22 
 

Heres some random stuff from Marvel Mystery Comics: 

KA-ZAR/DAVID RAND 
MARVEL COMICS 1/6 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/6 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3/6 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/7 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/7 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6/7 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/7 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/7 
HUMAN TORCH 5B 
(since this Ka-Zar came first, Plunder would be Ka-Zar II) 

MASKED RAIDER/JIM GARDLEY 
MARVEL COMICS 1/4 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/4 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3/4 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/4 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/4 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6/4 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/4 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/4 

ELECTRO/PROFESSOR PHILO ZOG 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/5 
(Electro the Marvel of the age! The robot is the title character, but hes remote controlled by its creator Prof. Zog. It doesnt seem to be sentient, though. Its more like Iron Man controlling his suit but without him wearing it. Zog is the force behind Electro, so Ive kept the listings together. In issue 8 theyre taken away by aliens, so who know if Electro itself gains sentience in a future issue. Until then, though, Id suggest keeping the listings together. Also, this would mean that Max Dillon is Electro II) 

FERRET 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/6 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/6 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6/6 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/6 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/6 

Speaking of Marvel Mystery Comics, here are some Angel stories: 

Marvel Mystery Comics #6/2 

Appearances: 
Angel(Thomas Halloway) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8 
The Angel finds Mary Edwards, whos being held for her diamond necklace. He hides, and follows the crooks who take it to a dealer. He attacks and has them arrested. 

Marvel Mystery Comics #7/2 

Appearances: 
Angel(Thomas Halloway) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8 
The Angel is driving with Betty Martin when his car is run off the road and over a cliff. He makes sure that Betty is safe, then attacks the men who ran his off the road. After he tortures one of the men, they go to Bettys Aunts house to arrest her for hiring the guys to kill Betty. Along the way they meet some policemen who follow them the rest of the way. When the Angel arrives, he stops Aunt Emma from poisoning Bettys dad Henry Martin. Emma tries to flee but shes gunned down by the police. 

Marvel Mystery Comics #8/2 

Appearances: 
Angel(Thomas Halloway) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8 
The Angel tries to free a kidnapped woman but hes beat senseless and tied up. A man arrives and reveals that the woman was kidnapped so her dad would pay $250,000, but to get it he would have to liquidate his stock in the Maeltmore Steel Company, and this guy wants to own the controlling shares. The Angel breaks free and beats the tar out of everyone. 

And speaking of the Angel 

Sub-Mariner Comics #1/3 

Appearances: 
Angel(Thomas Halloway) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg20 
The Angel eavesdrops as Ricardo Amegos and Tex Carvil both try to buy Jane Travers recently inherited castle from her. She declines, and theyre attacked by a zombie. The Angel and Tex go exploring and find Jane under the castle in its catacombs where Ricardo is using zombies to mine for gold. After a fight the Angel sets of some explosives to trap Ricardo and the zombies underground. 

Sub-Mariner Comics #2/3 

Appearances: 
Angel(Thomas Halloway), Python 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg20 
A student witnesses a giant python kill her professor. Reading about it in the paper the next day, the Angel decides to investigate. When he arrives at the students home hes attacked by a giant snake, but he manages to escape and eventually makes his way to Westchester where hes attacked by the Python, Master of Snakes! Hes overpowered and brought to the Pythons lair, where hes keeping captured scientists, most of whom were thought to be dead. The Angel defeats the Python, whos revealed to be a Nazi. 

Sub-Mariner Comics #3/2 

Appearances: 
Angel(Thomas Halloway) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg20 
Someone is killing anti-Nazi cartoonists, so the Angel poses as one to solve the mystery. He captured by Howard the Nazi and eventually defeats him. 

Sub-Mariner Comics #4/3 

Appearances: 
Angel(Thomas Halloway), Robert Goom 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg20 
The Angel witnesses a man run over by a train, so he goes to investigate. Apparently, 15 years ago Goom was arrested for embezzlement, but he blamed his partners. One was just hit by a train, so he goes looking for the other one. He tracks Goom down to a castle where hes holding the remaining partner, overpowers him and calls the police. 

Some placement suggestions: 

ANGEL/THOMAS HALLOWAY (1940's hero) 
MARVEL COMICS 1/2 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/2 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3/2 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/2 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/2 
*MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6/2 
MARVELS 1 
*MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/2
*MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/2 
HUMAN TORCH 5A/3 
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 1/3
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 2/3 
HUMAN TORCH 5B 
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 3/2
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 4/3 
CV 1-FB 
 

Up next: I'm not sure... All-Winners 1-8? Sub-Mariner 5-8? USA Comics 1-4? I haven't quite decided yet, but hey, I'm finally getting around to those Masterworks. 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Subject: Immortal Iron Fist #7

Oct 15, 2007 10:54 am 
By DonCampbell

Analysis of Immortal Iron Fist #7 

Two quick notes. First, this issue tells a standalone story recounting events that took place in the Sixteenth Century. For that reason Im not going to get as overly-detailed as I was in my last Immortal Iron Fist analysis. 

Second, while the images and dialogue depict actual events from the life of Wu Ao-Shi, the narrative for the story is apparently the text (as told in the Book of the Iron Fist) of the Story of the Iron Fist Wu Ao-Shi. All of the narrative is written in the past tense, the story was written after Wu Ao-Shis death and the second-to-last panel in the story shows (what appears to be) the narrator/scribe writing the ending of her story into the Book of the Iron Fist while Lei Kung stands nearby, watching him do so. Taking these facts into consideration, I believe that that one panel acts as a framing sequence for the previous pages and thus the majority of the story should be considered to be a flashback. Since I have checked with a higher power (a Director) about my reasoning and he was inclined to agree with me, I am somewhat confident of my choice. Dissenting opinions are welcome. 


THE IMMORTAL IRON FIST #7 (cover-dated August, 2007) 
The Pirate Queen of Pinghai Bay (aka The Story of the Iron Fist Wu Ao-Shi) 

Appearances: Wu Ao-Shi (Iron Fist-1545), unnamed vendor, Lei Kung the Thunderer, the fisherman, Yu-Ti, Shou-Lao the Undying, Wouku pirates (all unnamed, including the Pirate King), unnamed scribe/narrator 

Not-So-Brief Synopsis: Long ago in Kun-Lun, Wu Ao-Shi was a young girl who was taken under the protection of Lei Kung the Thunderer after she attacked (and killed?) a street vendor who was punishing her VERY cruelly for trying to steal six glass rose-blossom cherries. Lei Kung trained Wu for years as she grew into a young woman. Then Wu met a young fisherman, and the two quickly fell in love and were married. Later, Wu faced the dragon Shou-Lao the Undying and killed it to become the Immortal Iron Fist. Afterwards, the fisherman, feeling that he was unable to watch her risk her life repeatedly yet unwilling to stand between his love and her destiny, left Kun-Lun for the world of men. Once she learned of this, Wu chose to leave as well to find him but the fisherman arrived at Pinghai Bay in China while Wu ended up somewhere else (in snow-covered mountains). In order to earn the money she needed to survive in the world of men while she searched for her true love, Wu began to do what she knew best - she beat people up. Eventually, after hearing that Pinghai Bay was being ruled by the tyrannical Wokou pirates, the Immortal Iron Fist went there for the money and the fighting. Wu challenged the Pirate King but was defeated when the pirates fought her unfairly. Chained to the cliffs, Wu was rescued by the fisherman and took her revenge on the pirates, killing them all. Reunited with her true love, the two were happy for the rest of their days which, sadly, were not long. Until her death, Wu Ao-Shi was the Pirate Queen of Pinghai Bay who ruled with benevolence, protecting her people from tyranny and oppression. 


Although Im not going to do a more detailed synopsis, someone might wish to have an account of how much time passes during this story so heres a breakdown of what happens: 

Page 1 is the title/credits page. Pages 2-4 feature Wu Ao-Shi as a young girl. Pages 5-7 show Wu as a young woman (with a shaved head) training with Lei Kung, and then meeting and falling in love with and marrying the young fisherman. Pages 8-11 show how Wu became the Immortal Iron Fist. Pages 12-14 show the fisherman and Wu separately leaving Kun-Lun for Earth, and what happened to them there. Pages 15-22 show what happened when Wu came to Pinghai Bay and was reunited with the fisherman (with her first appearance in IF5 2 fitting neatly between pages 21 and 22). And page 23 tells how the couple remained well fed and well loved for the rest of their days...which sadly, were not long. 

Theres a total lack of any specific temporal references in this story. The only signs of any lengthy passages of time occur when Wu grows from a young girl (on page 4) to a young adult woman (by page 5), and when her hair grows from nothing (on page 13) to being very long and braided (on page 15). Theres no mention of how long she and the fishermen were together in Kun-Lun. Fortunately, Wus first appearance (in IF5 #2, pages 1-3) refers to her as Iron Fist, c. 1545 A.D. during the battle with the Pinghai Wouku which ended in her becoming the Pirate Queen of Pinghai Bay. This allows us to be somewhat certain that (unless she was a lot older than she looked) Wus whole life must have been lived within the Sixteenth Century. 

Two notes of interest. First, Wu Ao-Shi is described as the first woman who dared face the ancient menace of Shou-Lao, the Undying. She felled the beast more quickly than any before her and the dragon brand was on her left thigh instead of her chest. She was also the last woman ever to carry the mantle of the Iron Fist (But the whys and the wherefores of that tale are a story for another day). These facts indicate that Wu must have been the only female face seen among the eleven ghostly headshots of the spirits of the dead Iron Fists of the past whom Davos encountered within the Anomaly Gem (as shown in IF2 1-FB). That headshot would now count as her first appearance, right? 

Second, it was revealed in IF 2 that teaching the martial arts to a woman was the ultimate crime in Kun-Lun. Obviously, that law (so ancient and absolute that to question it is to invite censure) must have been enacted after Wu Ao-Shis death. 


Character Listings: 

IRON FIST-1545/PIRATE QUEEN OF PINGHAI BAY/WU AO-SHI 
IF5 7-FB (pages 2-21) 
IF5 2 (pages 1-3) 
IF5 7-FB (pages 22-23) 
{IF2 1-FB} 


LEI KUNG, THE THUNDERER 
M/PRM 22-FB (defeated the Ninja "centuries" ago  may be before OR after OR even during IF5 7-FB) 
IF5 7-FB (4 different scenes with Wu Ao-Shi over maybe 20 years, all in the 16th Century) 
IF5 7 (1 panel with scribe after Wu Ao-Shis death) 
IF5 4-FB (3 different scenes with Orson Randall over at least 20/30 years in the early 20th Century) 
M/TU 64-FB 
. . . . 

SHOU-LAO THE UNDYING 
. . . . 
IF5 7-FB (vs. Wu Ao-Shi, before 1545 AD) 
IF5 4-FB (vs. Orson Randall, before 1915) 
. . . . 


While the Yu-Ti who appears in this story MAY be the same character who appears in other stories set in Kun-Lun's past, that can't be determined as yet because he is never identified by anything other than his title and his face is never shown. However, the narrator described this Yu-Ti as an old, bitter man which could mean that he didn't survive into the Seventeenth Century. 

Okay, thats it for issue #7. Since the next Immortal Iron Fist storyline is the Seven Capital Cities of Heaven saga whose length has not yet been revealed, my next analysis will just be of issues #8 and 9, and the IIF Annual #1. 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Subject: White Tiger #1-6

Sep 16, 2007 3:16 pm 
By JD

WHITE TIGER #1-6 
Writers : Tamora Pierce & Timothy Liebe 
Pencillers : Phil Briones (#1-5), Alvaro Rio & Ronaldo Adriano Silva (#6) 
Inker : Don Hillsman 
Published from November 2006 to September 2007 

Cast : 
- White Tiger IV/Angela Del Toro 
- Iron Fist/Daniel Rand/Daredevil 2.0, Black Widow/Natasha Romanova, Spider-Man/Peter Parker (in red/blue costume), Luke Cage 
- (in flashback) Matt Murdock/Daredevil & Franklin Nelson 
- King Cobra 2/Piet Voorhees (+ mention of the original King Cobra, Klaus Voorhees, his uncle) 
- Chaeyi gang : Sano Orii, Kenzo Orii, Edward "Eddie" V. Halen (not his real name, but hey) 
- Crooked Homeland Security agent Karlson, Crooked State Departement Agent Jessup Pyne 
- FBI agent Coville 
- 212 Security : James & Veronica "Niki" Guerrero 
- Amy Sheridan & Nora Jackson, rich idle socialites 
- (in flashback) the FBI director 
- Li Ling Potter (superhero costumer) and her unnamed daughter 
- The Ayala/Del Toro clan : Rey Del Toro (Angela's younger brother), Awilda Ayala Del Toro (Angela's mother), Soledad Ayala (Hector Ayala's widow) 
- Random guests stars : Emma Frost, the Lizard, Deadpool, Omega Red 


WHITE TIGER #1 
Characters : White Tiger, Eddie, Daredevil 2.0, Black Widow, Spider-Man, Agent Coville, King Cobra, Sano, Karlson, Li Ling Potter 

Synopsis : 
- Pages 1-11 (Night) : Angela (in a makeshift masked black outfit) busts up some punks with blank IDs (including Eddie) and encounters the new Daredevil. 
- Pages 12-33 (probably the following day, until sunset) : Angela meets with agent Coville for some exposition on Chaeyi and King Cobra. He also points her towards Guerrero's PI agency for work. Crooked agent Karlson is angry at Sano for his clumsy underlings losing part of the fake IDs. Angela gets a real superhero costume and chats with Black Widow. White Tiger goes busting Eddie again, fights King Cobra, but they escape and leave her beaten in a back street. 

Flashbacks : 
- Page 9, panels 3-4 : Nelson and Murdock assaulted by the press outside a tribunal. Matt wonders publicly why the FBI director "disbanded the task force assigned to my case and tried to fire Angela Del Toro". I'm at a loss : I don't remember this scene at all in the main title, and I have no idea when it should happen. Matt seems free, but it could be around his trial (shown in DD2 81). Especially since the Director does not actually fire Angela in DD2 77, as revealed later this issue (this is public service : he could only put her on "medical retirement"). 
- Pages 12, panels 4-5 : The FBI director fires Angela : repeats DD2 77 pages 5-6 (panels 13 & 17) 
- Page 16, panels 1-4 : repeats the fight scene in the beginning of the issue, and I see no need to do a full panel comparison. There's no new info. 
- Page 17, panels 5-6 : Angela asks Matt for help regarding the White Tiger heritage : repeats DD2 68, page 17 panel 6 & page 19 panel 3 
- Page 19, panels 3-6 : Angela & Daredevil fight on the roof of St Catherine : repeats DD2 70 page 6 panel 3 to page 7 panel 7 (with some dialog omitted) 
- Page 20, panels 4-7 : Daredevil kicks Angela off the roof into a dumpster : this is NOT in DD2 70, and thus probably new material. From context, this is the last time Angela trained with Daredevil/Matt Murdock, at least three weeks before this issue (this is how long she wore a splint). I'd place it between DD2 70 and DD2 77 (where she's fine). 
- Page 30, panels 4-7 : Sano's yakuzas kill Agent Driver in front of Angela : repeats DD 59 page 1 panel 1, page 3 panel 6, page 4 panel 2, and page 5 panel 1. 

Notes : 
- "Prior to the events of Marvel Civil War". On the other hand, everybody is discussing the Superhero Registration Act proposal, so it must happens just before it. Spider-Man is in his red/blue costume, but it is probably the Iron Spider one. 
- Matt Murdock is in jail (hence between DD2 81 & 86, where he escapes). 
- Danny Rand is running around as Daredevil (for reasons explained in DD2 87). There are several hints that he's just started, hence placing this mini before his other appearances in this role. 
* Most bystanders (including Angela) sound like they're seeing Daredevil for the first time since Murdock is in jail. Compare with DD 82, where the new Daredevil is making newspaper headlines. 
* Danny uses an utterly silly voice modificator when he's Daredevil. It's pointed out to his as ridiculous at various points in this mini, and he never uses it elsewhere. 
- Angela is not fooled one second : she immediatly recognizes him as "not Matt Murdock", and reflects at length on him reminding her of someone else (Danny Rand was a close friend of Hector Ayala, the original White Tiger and Angela's uncle. He and Luke Cage are friends of the family). 
- Is Li Ling Potter, superhero costumer, related to Melvin Potter aka the Gladiator, who also started as a superhero costumer way back in the Silver Age ? We also see her unnamed daughter. Have they appeared anywhere else ? (My knowledge of Daredevil history stops at Volume 2 & the first three Essentials, sorry.) 

Goofs : 
- Globe headline : "Super hero civil war ?", with a picture of Captain America. Oops... The other newsparer are more in line with the timeline (for exemple, "House debates registration act"). 
- In a storytelling masterpiece, we're told on page 12 that Angela saw the new King Cobra in the car giving fake IDs. Well, I've reread the opening scene several times and I barely see a car, and certainly no King Cobra. But he's there. 


WHITE TIGER #2 
Characters : White Tiger, Eddie, Daredevil 2.0, James & Niki Guerrero, Sano, King Cobra, Spider-Man, Amy Sheridan, Nora Jackson 

Synopsis : 
Pages 1-5 (continued from last issue) : White Tiger and a latecoming Daredevil 2.0 beat up some left-behind members of Sano's gang (including Eddie). 2.0 brings Angela back home, and she helpfully recaps the plot to him so that he knows why it's important. 
Pages 6-12 (the next day) : Angela gets a job at the Guerreros' PI agency. Sano menaces his underlings. 
Pages 13-16 (panel 3) (that day's night) : Angela and her team escort two socialites to a "former mutants" night club. In an unfortunate coincidence, Sano and King Cobra are also there, and Sano and Angela dance around a bit (both literaly and figuratively). 
Pages 16 (panel 4)-21 (the same day, but past midnight) White Tiger and Daredevil 2.0 attack Sano outside another night club, but the fight is interrupted by armed cops pretending to be the NYPD. 

Flashbacks : 
- Page 1, panels 1-4 : repeats the last few pages of last issue. 

Notes : 
- Angela starts calling the new Daredevil "Daredevil 2.0". You can either find it cute or very annoying. 
- Decimation is duly namechecked. We even have a footnote ! 
- Stark Perfume produce a "Tigresa Blanca" perfume. Of course they do. It's actually a small plot point that it smells nothing like Angela as White Tiger. 
- Spider-Man is not fooled by Daredevil 2.0 either ("When Matt catches you, he's totally going to kick your ass"). Soon after, 2.0 lets slip that he knows the last time Angela had a babysitter. He's not really good at this "secret identity" thing, is he ? 
- Spider-Man is in the Avengers. 


WHITE TIGER #3 
Characters : White Tiger, Daredevil 2.0/Danny Rand, Spider-Man, Matt Murdock-BTS, Black Widow, Agent Pyne, Sano, King Cobra, James & Niki Guerrero, Amy Sheridan, Nora Jackson, Rey Del Toro, Mrs Del Toro 

Synopsis : 
- Pages 1-9 (continued from last issue) : Spider-Man hauls our heroes from their sticky situation. The next morning, Angela tries visiting Matt at Riker's, but he refuses (BTS, we do not actually see or hear him). Then she goes to work that evening. The villains discuss the plot again. 
- Page 10 (over several days) : Angela settles in her routine. 
- Pages 11-14 ("one night" following the previous page, told in flashback) : White Tiger and King Cobra fight inconclusively. 
- Pages 15-20 (the following day) : Angela goes at a family reunion. She busts some crooks on her way back, and makes her public debut as White Tiger. 
- Page 21 is a Daily Bugle "Page 7" (the "Fashion" page, apparently) commenting on the new White Tiger. 

Flashbacks : 
- Page 7, panel 6 : One year ago, Sano salutes his father Kenzo Orii in Tokyo 
- Page 18, panel 1 : Rey Del Toro is told the following story by a cop friend : [Fits between pages 9 & 15 in his chronology] 
- Page 18, panels 2-5 : Just after this issue's page 4, some real cops find the scene with "Homeland Security Special Operations" agents shooting everywhere. [Karlson & King Cobra are seen] 

Notes : 
- We're told that those were fake cops, by the way. They had "Sentinel weapons". Does the word Sentinel even mean anything those days ? 
- There's a footnote to the Daughters of the Dragon mini when Misty Knight is mentionned. We're just told that she runs "Nightwing Restorations", not whether that miniseries has yet happened (though, by date of publication, it should). Misty and Danny "broke up". 
- The Del Toro/Ayala family is huge. Even without counting people like Danny Rand who are just friends of the family, there are dozens of family members shown on panel. 
- White Tiger is confused with Emma Frost. Come on, she does not show that much skin... 
- Info from the Bugle "Page 7" : Spider-Man's identity is not public, and Moon Knight is active. 


WHITE TIGER #4 
Characters : White Tiger, the Lizard, Sano & Kenzo Orii, Agent Coville, James Guerrero, Luke Cage, Agent Pyne, Emma Frost 

Synopsis : 
Pages 1-12 (probably the next day) : White Tiger defends some bystanders against the Lizard, witnesses Kenzo Orii being attacked by anti-superhuman terrorists as he arrives at JFK airport, learns the socialites she protects are grounded and she has the night off, and works out with Luke Cage. She also gets her first street informant. What a day ! 
Pages 13-14 (the next day) : While following Pyne, Angela randomly crosses paths with Emma Frost (who's buying some Tigresa Blanca perfume). 
Pages 15-21 (one "day and a half later", night, "Sunday") : Sano kills Pyne as he gets the last blank IDs. White Tiger starts beating up King Cobra, but he bites her with a powerful poison and leaves her for dead. 

Flashbacks : 
- Lots of them on page 21, but no new information (most are excerpts of flashbacks already shown, plus one generic shot of Matt Murdock bending on the dead Hector Ayala). 

Notes : 
- The Lizard is randomly wandering around town, attacking innocent bystanders. Where does this fit in his chronology ? 
- Luke Cage is "gonna be a dad" (so before the last PULSE arc). And is in the Avengers. 

WHITE TIGER #5 
Characters : White Tiger, Daredevil 2.0, James & Niki Guerrero, Luke Cage, Sano, King Cobra, Eddie, Deadpool, Kenzo Orii, the Lizard 

Synopsis : 
- Pages 1-9 (three days later, dawn, "weeks" since issue #1) : Daredevil 2.0 finds White Tiger lying on a rooftop, half-hidden by a new camouflaging power. She finally figures out he's really Danny Rand. She meets with her bosses, who know and are fine with her "after hours" occupation. And she beats up Danny for lying and being so careless. 
- Pages 10-13 (probably the night of the same day) : White Tiger follows Eddie yet again, but is interrupted by Deadpool barging in, trying to arrest her (he thinks she's Black Cat). 
- Pages 14-21 (the next day) : Kenzo Orii visits Angela to try to make her leave his son alone, but fails and leaves. Later, Sano attacks her while she walks in a park, she jumps into the river, and swims right into the Lizard... 

Flashbacks : 
- Page 7 panel 3 : Niki Guerrero points gun at Chaeyi operatives (she looks 20 years younger) 
- Page 7 panel 5 : James Guerrero shoots King Cobra without causing much injury (several years ago) 

Notes : 
- Black Cat is wanted for grand larceny. 
- Luke Cage is called ("Avengers Assemble") at the end of page 9. 


WHITE TIGER #6 
Characters : White Tiger, the Lizard, Danny Rand/Iron Fist, Sano & Kenzo Orii, James Guerrero, Luke Cage, Spider-Man, Black Widow, Eddie, King Cobra, Agent Karlson, Omega Red, Soledad Ayala, Awilda & Rey Del Toro 

Synopsis : 
Pages 1-5 (continued from last issue) : Angela escapes and presses charges against Sano (who ran off, but is in deep trouble with his father). 
Pages 6-20 panel 2 (the next day and night) : Angela gets full support from the Guerreros. Together with various heroes, White Tiger bust up the Chaeyi pretty conclusively (Sano accidentally kills his father and is forced to suicide, lots of mooks are given for the police to arrest). King Cobra escapes. 
Pages 20 panel 3-21 (the next day) : Soledad Ayala sees the new White Tiger as forgiveness from her late husband. Meanwhile, what's left of the Chaeyi (Karlson & King Cobra) hire Omega Red to hunt down and kill White Tiger 

Flashbacks : 
- Page 6 panel 5 : James Guerrero in Cambodia in the 70s, against the Chaeyi 
- Page 7 panel 2 : Niki's parents (Somali diplomats) assassinated by the Chaeyi 
- Page 8 panels 4-5 : Sano killing various people : repeats of scenes already shown in previous issues 

Notes : 
- Spider-Man's hobby as a photographer is known not only by Luke Cage and Iron Fist, but also by Black Widow. White Tiger, of course, will remain clueless for a few more weeks. 
- On top of Hector Ayala, he "Heroes for hire" animal White Tiger and Kasper Kole are duly namechecked by the villains trying to figure the White Tiger out. 



Chronology listings : Oh, look, the "WT" code is free in the key ! 
I only list the main players, I'm at a loss for the numerous guest stars. 

WHITE TIGER IV/ANGELA DEL TORO 
... 
DD2 70 
WT 1-FB (page 20) 
DD2 77 
WT 1 
WT 2 
WT 3 
WT 4 
WT 5 
WT 6 

DAREDEVIL/MATT MURDOCK 
... 
DD2 70 
WT 1-FB (p20) 
DD2 71 
... 
DD2 80 
WT 1-FB (p9) 
DD2 81 
WT 3-BTS 
DD2 82 
... 

ORII, SANO 
WT 3-FB (p7) 
DD2 56 
... 
DD2 60 
WT 1 
WT 2 
WT 3 
WT 4 
WT 5 
WT 6 

KING COBRA 2/PIET VOORHEES 
WT 5-FB (p7) 
{WT 1} 
WT 2 
WT 3 
WT 3-FB-FB 
WT 4 
WT 5 
WT 6 

NELSON, FRANKLIN "FOGGY" 
... 
DD2 80 
WT 1-FB (p9) 
DD2 81 
... 

IRON FIST/DANIEL RAND/DAREDEVIL 2.0 
??? (any other Pre-CW appearances) 
WT 1 
WT 2 
WT 3 
WT 4 
WT 5 
WT 6 
CW 1 
... 

LUKE CAGE 
... 
DD 81 
WT 4 
WT 5 
WT 6 
PULSE 11 
... 

BLACK WIDOW/NATASHA ROMANOVA 
... 
DD 80 
WT 1 
WT 3 
WT 6 
... 

ORII, KENZO 
{WT 4} 
WT 5 
WT 6 

GUERRERO, JAMES 
WT 6-FB 
WT 5-FB (p7) 
{WT 2} 
WT 3 
WT 4 
WT 5 
WT 6 

GUERRERO, VERONICA 
WT 6-FB 
WT 5-FB (p7) 
{WT 2} 
WT 3 
WT 4 
WT 5 
WT 6 

KARLSON [Homeland Security Agent] 
WT 1 
WT 3-FB-FB 
WT 6 

HALEN, EDWARD "EDDIE" V. 
{WT 1} 
WT 2 
WT 5 
WT 6 

DEL TORO, REY 
{WT 3} 
WT 6 

DEL TORO, AWILDA AYALA 
{WT 3} 
WT 6 

AYALA, SOLEDAD 
... 
DD2 60 
WT 6 

COVILLE [FBI Agent] 
{WT 1} 
WT 4 

PYNE, JESSUP 
{WT 3} 
WT 4 

Appearances where I don't have any clue how they fit : 

WHITE QUEEN/EMMA FROST 
WT 4 

DEADPOOL/WADE WILSON 
WT 5 

LIZARD 
WT 4 
WT 5 
WT 6 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER PARKER 
WT 1 
WT 2 
WT 3 
WT 6 

OMEGA RED 
WT 6 

Any ideas ? 


Okay, that's it. Between the heavy Daredevil continuity, the Civil War mess, and the random guest stars, that was very challenging. Next... Well, we'll see.

			*	*	*

Sep 16, 2007 6:52 pm 
By michaelyuri

JD wrote:
Oh, look, the "WT" code is free in the key !
True, though I did use it first for "Wild Thing" in the MC2 chronology: 
http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2585

			*	*	*

Sep 18, 2007 8:33 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Luke Cage is "gonna be a dad" (so before the last PULSE arc). 

Crap. 

...Time once again to play "Circular Chronology!" Brought to you by the good folks at Marvel. Marvel, the continuity-challenged company. Let's get right to it, shall we? 

First we have... 
PULSE #13 
Jessica gives birth 
Ben Urich gets Daredevil (presumably Matt -- how would Ben know that Danny is DD?) to talk to D-Man 
The FBI is after Matt, so I have DD here between DD2 75 and 76 

Then comes... 
NEW AVENGERS ANNUAL #1 
New parents Cage and Jessica are wed 

Then comes... 
DAREDEVIL v2 #80-81 
Jessica doesn't look pregnant and wears a wedding band 
Matt is sent to prison to await trial 

Then comes... 
WHITE TIGER #1 
Matt is in prison 

Then comes... 
WHITE TIGER #4 
Cage is "gonna be a dad" Oops. 


Until this point, the chronology makes sense and seems to work with other interrelated titles (as shown in the calendar). Any way to ignore or re-interpret that "gonna be a dad" statement? 

Ugh.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Sep 19, 2007 12:33 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Maybe it hadn't set in yet that he was already a dad because they hadn't named the baby yet? 

That's all I got.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Sep 19, 2007 2:02 am 
By JLH

Here's some suggestions: 

Luke there is a Skrull. 

Luke there is an Earth-A double. 

Luke means "I'm going to go and be a Dad", as if he plans on going to the kid soon and performing the paternal role actively. 

Luke has another kid nobody knows about but him. Shh.

			*	*	*

Sep 19, 2007 2:59 am 
By JD

JLH wrote:
>>>
Luke means "I'm going to go and be a Dad", as if he plans on going to the kid soon and performing the paternal role actively.
<<<

Hey, this one might work. I'll check back the exact context tonight. 

[edit] The exact quote : "I'm settled. Respectable. Gonna be a dad." Umm... 

Oh, **** it. Let's call it a continuity error, and not bother.

			*	*	*

Sep 21, 2007 6:21 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hey, JD. While checking for the context of "gonna be a dad" in issue #4, would you please provide a breakdown of the panels on page 10 of issue #3? I'd like to know how to divide and combine these panels as calendar entries. (And I'm hoping the scenes on page 10 can occur over just a couple of days...) Thanks!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Sep 22, 2007 12:38 pm 
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Hey, JD. While checking for the context of "gonna be a dad" in issue #4, would you please provide a breakdown of the panels on page 10 of issue #3? I'd like to know how to divide and combine these panels as calendar entries. (And I'm hoping the scenes on page 10 can occur over just a couple of days...) Thanks!
<<<

It'll have to wait next week, as I haven't brought my WT issues with me...

On the other hand, I did get my Murdock Papers TPB, and I'm an idiot for not actually reading it again fully for this analysis.


>>>
- Page 20, panels 4-7 : Daredevil kicks Angela off the roof into a dumpster : this is NOT in DD2 70, and thus probably new material. From context, this is the last time Angela trained with Daredevil/Matt Murdock, at least three weeks before this issue (this is how long she wore a splint). I'd place it between DD2 70 and DD2 77 (where she's fine).
<<<

The scene does actually happen in DD2 79, and has NO new material (at first glance). This also gives us a duration of at least "three weeks" between DD2 79 and WT1. 

So the listings should read : 

WHITE TIGER IV/ANGELA DEL TORO 
... 
DD2 77 
DD2 78 
DD2 79 
WT 1 
WT 2 
WT 3 
WT 4 
WT 5 
WT 6 

and : 

DAREDEVIL/MATT MURDOCK 
... 
DD2 80 
WT 1-FB (p9) 
DD2 81 
WT 3-BTS 
DD2 82 
...

			*	*	*

Oct 14, 2007 8:40 am 
By JD

JD wrote:
>>>
It'll have to wait next week, as I haven't brought my WT issues with me...
<<<

Oops, I had completely forgotten about this. It breaks up thusly : 
- Panel 1 : Night : Angela & her collegues watch upon their charges. 
- Panels 2-3 : Day : Angela does some research work and follows suspects in disguise 
- Panel 4 : Evening : White Tiger shadows King Cobra & Sano 
- Panels 5-6 : Night : White Tiger fights some thugs 

This can easily be compressed into a couple days : narration is very vague, except for mentionning a new "routine" for Angela, and discovery of her new sleeping rythms (a couple hours a night).

			*	*	*

Oct 16, 2007 6:05 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, JD. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Subject: Avengers Classic 5/2

Oct 18, 2007 1:25 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Avengers Classic #5/2 
Published: December, 2007 

Appearances: 
Captain America-FB, Bucky-FB, Thor-FB, Fenris-FB, Loki-FB-BTS 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2pn4(of 7): the night of Avengers 5 
In a veterans care hospital in Shreveport, Louisiana, Mr. Maucieri watches the news and remembers when he met Captain America 
Pg2pn5-pg5pn1-FB: Bastogne, Belgium, 1944 
Pvt. Maucieri, covered in blood, is running through the forest when he runs into Captain America, Bucky, and some American troops. He tells them of a giant wolf that killed his company, and brings them to the scene. 
Pg5pn2(of 6)-FB-FB: just before pg2pn5-FB 
American and German troops are attacked by Fenris. 
Pg5pn3-pg9pn2-FB 
Fenris returns and attacks. Cap tries to shoot, but it does no good and Fenris eats some soldiers. Thor arrives, muzzles Fenris and takes him back to Asgard. Captain America and Bucky tend to Pvt. Maucieri, whos legs have been chewed off. 
Pg9pn3-pg9pn5(of 5): the night of Avengers 5 
Mr. Maucieri dozes off. 

References: 
The television shows the interview previously seen in Earths Mightiest Heroes 3, following the Avengers fight with the lava men in Avengers 5. No new information. 

Its winter of 1944 in the Flashback. Fenris had been set loose by Loki, giving him a BTS. For those interested, I have this placed on 18 December, 1944. 

Some placement suggestions: 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
 
CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
WX2 14-FB (1944) 
*AC 5/2-FB (1944) 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 
WS: WK 1-FB (12/24/44) 
 

BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN BUCKY BARNES 
 
CA/NF: OWW 1 (10/44) 
*AC 5/2-FB (1944) 
CA3 32-FB (12/44) 
WS: WK 1-FB (12/24/44) 
 

THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" [ASGARDIAN] 
 
BP3 47 
T 474-FB 
INV 32 
INV 33 
*AC 5/2-FB (1944) 
VENUS 12 
VENUS 13 
 

FENRIS 
JIM 114/2 
*AC 5/2-FB-FB
*AC 5/2-FB (1944) 
T 277 
T 278 
(I dont have JIM 114, so Im taking an educated guess here based on Thors chronology) 

LOKI [ASGARDIAN] 
 
BP3 47 
T 474-FB 
*AC 5/2-FB-BTS (1944) 
VENUS 6 
VENUS 7 
VENUS 9 
VENUS 12 


Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Oct 18, 2007 5:08 am 
By Enda80

That issue simply told of Fenris stalking Idunn in ancient times and getting 
fought off by Haakon the Hunter. This is actually according to the official handbook one of the two sources of the Red Riding Hood legend on Earth-616 (according to the article in Conan Saga#95 or #96, the other possible source for Red Riding Hood is Red Sonja's battle with a werewolf in Kull and the Barbarians#2, reprinted recently by Dynamite in Giant-Size Red Sonja#1).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUKGj4K1fCc

Since it took place long enough ago to inspire Red Riding Hood, that should help. 

By the way, did anyone note the continuity problem with one of those Avengers Classic back-ups? One of them had Cap receiving his military backpay just after Avengers I#4, when he did not get it until the 1980's published stories under Stern, and the Super-Soldier Serum was found in his blood after a blood test, which goes against Captain America I#155, which states the serum is untraceable. That was how Steve Rogers of the 1950's had leverage on the US government.

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Subject: Wolverine: Origins 18

Oct 18, 2007 12:26 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine: Origins #16 
Wolverine: Origins #17 
Wolverine: Origins #18 
Published: December, 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Captain America-FB, Bucky-FB, Sgt. Fury-FB, Baron Strucker-FB, Seraph-FB 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2-FB: November, 1941 
Bucky decks Logan and gets yelled at by Captain America. 
Pg3pn1: now 
Wolverine takes a drink at the Captain America memorial. 
Pg3pn2(of 2)-FB(this takes place sometime during next issue or the following) 
Under fire, Captain America bashes open a tank with his shield. 
Pg4-pg6pn1-FB-FB: November, 1941 
Captain America tells Logan that he and Bucky are headed to Djerba and asks if Logan wants to come along. Logan introduces Captain America to Sgt. Fury, and Fury reveals that he knows more about Caps mission than Cap does. 
Pg6pn2: now 
Wolverine takes a drink at the Captain America memorial. 
Pg6pn3-FB 
Baron Strucker meets with the Hand, his start at forming a secondary power base. 
Pg6pn4: now 
As he drinks, Wolverine realizes that for whatever reason, Romulus didnt want Strucker to form a secondary power base. 
Pg6pn5(of 6)-pg7pn1-FB 
Repeat of Uncanny 268-FB & W: O 16-FB. 
Pg7pn2-pg7pn3-FB 
Seraph talks with a Hand representative. After revealing that their alliance is almost over, Logan kills the Hand member. 
Pg7pn4(of 5)-pg10-FB: November, 1941 
Fury and Bucky exchange information, and Fury decides to accompany them on their mission to go after Baron Strucker. 
Pg11pn1: now 
Wolverine takes a drink at the Captain America memorial. 
Pg11pn2(of 2)-pg12pn2-FB: day after pg10-FB 
Captain America, Bucky, Logan, and Sgt. Fury make their way to Baron Struckers hideout with some American troops. 
Pg12pn3-FB(this takes place sometime during next issue or the following) 
Bucky cuts open a Nazi soldiers neck. 
Pg12pn4: now 
Wolverine takes a drink at the Captain America memorial. 
Pg12pn5(of 5)-pg22-FB 
Captain America and Sgt. Fury get to know each other, and that night they arrive at Struckers secret base. Captain America storms the place and takes out a bunch of Nazi soldiers, then heads off to find Strucker. Logan follows while Fury rounds up the Nazis. 

References: 
Current day: you guessed it, not much is going on here. 

FlashBacks: Theres a bit of recapping of the previous two issues which is strange, since theyre the previous two issues. Is this padding, or is Way starting to get confused? Im guessing a little of both. 

Captain America meets Sgt. Fury for the First Time here, and the introductions are made by Logan. This doesnt go against anything, really, but it does read a little bit like fan fiction to me for some reason. Also, its implied that Fury gets the idea of naming S.H.I.E.L.D. after Captain Americas shield. Thats ridiculous of course, S.H.I.E.L.D. was around for a while before Fury ever heard of it. Theres no way Fury could name the organization.(however, I've always liked the idea that S.H.I.E.L.D. was named after Cap's shield, so there you go) 

Strucker is meeting with the Hand to solidify a secondary power base for himself. Depending on how the next few issues go, this shouldnt mess anything up too badly 

For some reason, Wolverine suspects that Bucky is under Romulus control. Why? Because Wolverine sees a lot of himself in Bucky.  

Seraphs people(Romulus) and the Hand had come to an agreement in the past, but now that Strucker has come along the Hand are no longer satisfied with the arrangement. This would place any Wolverine vs the Hand FlashBacks(like W3 52-FB & W3 53-FB) prior to WWII. Thankfully, thats what Ive already suggested. 

Some placement suggestions: 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 10/3 
W: O 17-FB (11/41) 
*W: O 18 (1-2)-FB
*W: O 18 (4-6:1)-FB-FB
*W: O 18 (7:4-10)-FB
*W: O 18 (11:2-12:2)-FB
*W: O 18 (12:5-22)-FB
*W: O 18 (3:2)-FB 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 22/3 
 

BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN BUCKY BARNES 
 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 10/3 
W: O 17-FB (11/41) 
*W: O 18 (1-2)-FB
*W: O 18 (4-6:1)-FB-FB
*W: O 18 (7:4-10)-FB
*W: O 18 (11:2-12:2)-FB
*W: O 18 (12:5-22)-FB
*W: O 18 (12:3)-FB 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 22/3 
 

FURY, SGT. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
 
SGTF 62 
W: O 17-FB (11/41) 
*W: O 18-FB-FB
*W: O 18-FB 
FURY: PM 1-FB (5) 
 

BARON STRUCKER/WOLFGANG VON STRUCKER 
 
XFOR 64 (1941) 
*W: O 18-FB 
UX 268 (9-11:5)-FB (08/41) 
W: O 16 (6:4-7:4)-FB 
UX 268 (11:6-11:7)-FB 
UX 268 (15)-FB 
W: O 16 (16:1-16:3)-FB 
UX 268 (20-21)-FB 
{SGTF 5} 
SGTF 9 
 

SERAPH 
W2 126 (6:2)-FB 
W2 126 (8)-FB 
W: O @1 (4-21)-FB 
{UX 268 (9-11:5)-FB} (08/41) 
W: O 16 (6:4-7:4)-FB 
UX 268 (11:6-11:7)-FB 
W: O 16 (14-15)-FB 
W: O 16 (17-19)-FB 
UX 268 (22)-FB 
W: O 16 (21)-FB 
*W: O 18-FB 
W: O @1 (22)-FB 
W2 126 (6:4)-FB 

WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT 
 
W: O @1-FB (1932) 
W3 52-FB 
W3 53-FB 
W2 5-FB 
UX 257-FB 
BLADE3 5-FB 
X: TF 2 (1936) 
X: TF 3 (1936) 
L: PW (1-9) 
W: O 17 (9)-FB 
W: O 9-FB 
W: O 17 (1-2)-FB 
W2 106-FB 
UX 268 (1-5)-FB (08/41) 
UX 268 (9-11:5)-FB 
W: O 16 (6:4-7:4)-FB 
UX 268 (11:6-11:7)-FB 
W: O 16 (8:5)-FB 
UX 268 (14)-FB 
W: O 16 (10-12)-FB 
UX 268 (15)-FB 
W: O 16 (14-15)-FB 
UX 268 (17)-FB 
W: O 16 (16:1-16:3)-FB 
UX 268 (20:1-20:4)-FB 
W: O 16 (16:4)-FB 
UX 268 (20:5-21)-FB 
W: O 16 (17-19)-FB 
UX 268 (22)-FB 
W: O 16 (21)-FB 
W: O 17 (11-16)-FB (11/41) 
W: O 17 (17:5-22)-FB 
*W: O 18 (7:2-7:3)-FB
*W: O 18 (1-2)-FB
*W: O 18 (4-6:1)-FB-FB
*W: O 18 (7:4-10)-FB
*W: O 18 (11:2-12:2)-FB
*W: O 18 (12:5-22)-FB 
W3 32 (05/42) 


Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Oct 19, 2007 12:10 am 
By wolframbane

great work Daron. You always manage to impress me!!

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Subject: Apache Skies #1-4

Oct 19, 2007 6:10 am 
By JLH

The last ride of some more Western heroes! 

------------------------------------ 
APACHE SKIES #1 [September 2002] 
"Chapter 1: Warpath" 
by John Ostrander and Leonardo Manco 

Cast: 
APACHE KID/DAZII/ALAN KRANDAL/"ALOYSIUS KARE" (FB only) 
APACHE KID II/ROSA
RAWHIDE KID/JOHNNY BART (also in FB) 
TRASK, COLONEL RICHARD
TYLER, WILLIAM
GRIMES, EUSTACE 

Other characters: 
Williams, Cole (dies) 
McGee (dies) 
Wilson, Miles 
Tyler, Billy (dies) 

Summary: November, 1886. Drunken Cole Williams is the first of the men who killed the Apache Kid to be hunted down and killed by a quick-drawing lady calling herself Apache Kid, who claims to have been the original's woman. 50 miles away, another of the men, McGee, is taking a drunken leak in an alley, when Rawhide Kid holds a gun to him, and questions him about the location of the guy who set Apache Kid up. After learning that Billy Tyler is in the town of Sagoro, owned by his railroad owner father. Rawhide gives McGee a chance to continue living, but he screws it up by reaching for his gun instead of putting away his water pistol. A short time later, William Tyler, Billy's father, has Colonel Richard Trask and his fellow ex-soldiers go to Sagoro to protect the son. Trask has some kind of history with Rawhide Kid. Soon in Sagoro, Rawhide arrives via train, and is nearly found out by one of the armed men looking for him, but luckily the porter, Eustace Grimes, spots him first and, thanks to Johnny Bart's involvement in the Railroad Wars, he gives him a heads up. The female Apache Kid, though, slips into town easily, while Rawhide Kid has to sneak in under cover of night. It all comes together when Billy leaves the bar and tries to rape a woman, leading to both Rawhide and the new Apache Kids confronting him at the same time! Despite being surrounded by the crooked sheriff Miles Wilson and his armed pals, Apache girl guns down Billy, killing him instantly. 


Flashback: 1) Apache Kid getting shot down by four guns at once. Takes place "some months" prior to this issue. 

2) Montage mural. Floating head images of Geronimo and Grover Cleveland. Active shots of multiple Apache and American soldiers. 

3) Floating heads of General George Crook and General Nelson Miles. Apache Kid standing tall with a rifle in hand. This ties in with the last montage, 

4) Apache Kid and Rawhide Kid fighting back to back during the Railroad Wars, "some years back". 


Continuity notes: Another Jeb Kent reference; It's the name Rawhide Kid uses on the train. 


Goofs: Despite the first scene supposedly taking place in November 1886, the Trask/Tyler scene, which follows it, is dated October 6, 1886. 


------------------------------------ 
APACHE SKIES #2 [October 2002] 
"Chapter 2: Hard Ride" 
by John Ostrander and Leonardo Manco 

Cast: 
RAWHIDE KID/JOHNNY BART
APACHE KID II/ROSA (also in FB) 
APACHE KID/DAZII/ALAN KRANDAL/"ALOYSIUS KARE" (FB only) 
GERONIMO/GOYATHLAY (FB only) 
TRASK, COLONEL RICHARD
TYLER, WILLIAM (BTS) 

Other characters: 
Wilson, Miles (dies) 
Tyler, Billy (as a corpse. BTS in FB) 

Summary: So, with Billy Tyler dead, it's a showdown after sundown in Sagoro. Rawhide Kid has to work twice as hard to take down the armed men and sheriff Miles Wilson, as the female Apache Kid remains in a bit of a trance after putting down the last man who killed her beloved. She soon snaps out of it and shoots Billy's body a few more times. With the town, obviously living under the thumb of railroad owner Tyler, forming a lynch mob to get them, Rawhide gets Apache on a horse, and unleashes the rest of the stables. Living up to his skills, Rawhide picked his shots carefully, avoiding killing any of the sheriff or his men. One clips Rawhide in the side while he rides out of town. Once safely outside of Sagoro, the Apache gal scolds Johnny for taking away the right of getting revenge for her husband. But she does help patch up his wounds, tell him her Mexican name of Rosa, and goes into detail of her history with the now deceased Apache Kid. But the good will doesn't last long. She kicks Johnny in the Barts and rides off on her own. In Sagoro, Colonel Trask and his troops arrive via special train, and per William Tyler's orders, they kill the sheriff, roust the townsfolk, and burn the place down for failing to keep Billy alive. 


Flashback: An indetermined number of years ago, Apache Kid first meeting Rosa, catching her stealing his ponies. They quickly fall in love, have some sex, and after the passage of some time, Geronimo presides over their marriage. We then see the end of their time together, when she went with Geronimo's raiding party while he remained behind, willing to give the Anglos a chance. Finally, we see the last time Apache Kid and Rosa saw each other, years later, just a few months prior to the first issue of this mini. Apache urged Rosa to get word to Geronimo about an attempt on his life by a man named Billy Tyler. Thanks to this, Geronimo escaped from General Crook's forces to avoid the ambush by Tyler, and Apache went after Billy himself... 


Continuity notes: Whether Apache Kid met Rosa before or after his full slate of appearances is unknown. I figure after, just because I'm dumb that way. 

------------------------------------ 
APACHE SKIES #3 [November 2002] 
"Chapter 3: Trust" 
by John Ostrander and Leonardo Manco 

Cast: 
TRASK, COLONEL RICHARD
GRIMES, EUSTACE
RAWHIDE KID/JOHNNY BART
APACHE KID II/ROSA
TYLER, WILLIAM
LOZEN
MIGDALIA/LONG MEMORY 

Other characters: 
Mulchahy (Trask's right hand man) 
Ramon (townsperson of Sagoro) 
Tyler, Billy (BTS as a corpse) 
Phillips, Reverend Orville 

Summary: The next day, Trask sets off after Billy's killers. The people of Sagoro are forced, by Trask's men, to walk the 50 miles to the next town. Eustace Grimes refuses to allow this, pulling a rifle on the men, allowing the townsfolk a place on his train. Later, at the Alamo, Rawhide Kid catches up with Rosa, and scuffles with her as she prepares to free Geronimo. He has a big problem with her suicidal actions, but manages to convince her to let him get her an audience with the Apache leader, via Rawhide calling in some favors with a few "blueberrys" who owe him. The next day, Billy's corpse arrives in San Antonio, and is greeted by his father. Trask also shows up, having followed the trail of the boy's killers there. Of course, Trask's men are beating the crap outta Eustace, but he's saved by Rawhide and Rosa. Eustace recovers, and informs Johnny of his old enemy Trask's role in the Sagoro incident. Soon, Rosa is allowed into the prison camp, but only gets to meet with Lozen, Geronimo's "good right hand". Lozen urges Rosa to change her focus to help the children, who're being taken away to become white. With this new mission, and Rawhide Kid aiding, the next day, Rosa hijacks the train taking the Apache children away. Eustace Grimes helps Johnny run the train, but unfortunately, during this whole escape, Trask and his men become aware, and give chase, guns a blazing. 


Continuity notes: The as-yet-unchronicled Railroad Wars gets another mention. It seems Colonel Trask was part of it, hence his familiarity with Rawhide Kid. 

------------------------------------ 
APACHE SKIES #4 [December 2002] 
"Chapter 4: Straight to Hell!" 
by John Ostrander and Leonardo Manco 

Cast: 
TRASK, COLONEL RICHARD (dies) 
RAWHIDE KID/JOHNNY BART
APACHE KID II/ROSA
GRIMES, EUSTACE
TYLER, WILLIAM (dies) 
MIGDALIA/LONG MEMORY (is revealed to be the narrator of the series) 

Other characters: 
Mulchahy (dies) 
Tyler, Billy (as a corpse) 
Phillips, Reverend Orville (dies) 

Summary: Trask and his men swarm upon the train, only to be fought off by Rawhide Kid and Rosa. They fall back and hitch a ride with William Tyler's special train. Let's cut to the chase. Rosa & Eustace get the kids to the mountains, and stay there to raise them in the proper Apache way. Rawhide Kid kills, or puts events into action that lead to the deaths of, Colonel Trask, William Tyler, and Billy Tyler's corpse. With the railway to the mountain wiped out, and Johnny cut off from Rosa and company, he parts with the smoke. One of the kids, Migdalia, turns out to be the narrator of all events (and explains she learned of all she didn't see herself from Rosa, Eustace, or Tyler's journal, found in the wreckage later). Rawhide Kid lives on, though never runs into Migdalia, or presumably the rest of the gang, again, the memory of his heroism is kept up alongside that of the Apache Kid. 


Continuity notes: Johnny tells Rosa if she needs help to go to Wonderment, Montana and mention him to Reno Jones, referencing "Blaze of Glory". 

------------------------------------ 



**APACHE KID/DAZII/ALAN KRANDAL/"ALOYSIUS KARE" 
[Two-Gun Western #5-9] 
[Wild Western #15-22] 
[The Apache Kid #53] 
[Apache Kid #2-19] 
[Western Gunfighters #20] 
ASKIES 1-FB 
ASKIES 2-FB 
ASKIES 1-FB 

**APACHE KID II/ROSA 
ASKIES 2-FB 
{ASKIES 1} 
ASKIES 2 
ASKIES 3 
ASKIES 4 

**GERONIMO/GOYATHLAY 
ASKIES 2-FB 
ASKIES 1-FB 

**GRIMES, EUSTACE 
ASKIES 1 
ASKIES 3 
ASKIES 4 

**LOZEN 
ASKIES 3 

**MIGDALIA/LONG MEMORY 
ASKIES 3 
ASKIES 4 

RAWHIDE KID/JOHNNY BART 
... 
[Rawhide Kid v.3 1-5] 
**ASKIES 1-FB 
[Blaze of Glory 1-4] 
**ASKIES 1 
**ASKIES 2 
**ASKIES 3 
**ASKIES 4 
[Rawhide Kid v.2 1-5] 

**TRASK, COLONEL RICHARD 
ASKIES 1 
ASKIES 2 
ASKIES 3 
ASKIES 4 

**TYLER, WILLIAM 
ASKIES 1 
ASKIES 2-BTS 
ASKIES 3 
ASKIES 4

			*	*	*

Oct 21, 2007 2:02 am 
By dimadick

1) "TRASK, COLONEL RICHARD" 

Any mentioned relation to Raven/Thorn Trask and his sister Nora Trask? The first was a Rawhide Kid villain from "Rawhide Kid" vol. 1 #35 (August, 1963). The second was his sister, a potential love interest of Rawhide for that one issue. 

2) "Johnny Bart's involvement in the Railroad Wars" 

I don't think we have had actual Marvel tales dealing with the Wars. They were a historical conflict at its height in 1878-1879. 

According to a stub article in Wikipedia trying to give some details: 

"In 1878, the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway and the smaller Denver and Rio Grande were competing to put the first line through Raton Pass. Both railroads had extended lines into Trinidad, Colorado and the pass was the only access to continue on to New Mexico. There was a great deal of legal maneuvering, and even threatened violence between rival gangs of railroad workers. 

To break the impasse, Atcheson, Topeka, and Santa Fe hired a number of local gunfighters in February, 1878. Faced with this threat, and running out of money, the Denver and Rio Grande was forced to cede the pass to their rivals. The first railroad war was over without a shot being fired. 

The next year a silver strike in Leadville brought the struggle back to life. Now both railroads were competing to put track along the narrow Royal Gorge. The Denver and Rio Grande had hired its own gunfighters so the Atcheson Topeka and Santa Fe decided to strengthen its forces. On March 20, 1879 the railroad hired Bat Masterson to put together a group of gunmen. Masterson's force included such famous fighters as Doc Holliday, Ben Thompson, Dave Rudabaugh, Mysterious Dave Mather as well as about seventy other fighters. 

This impressive force experienced impressive successes through early June of that year. On June 10, the Fourth Judicial Circuit ruled in favor of the Denver and Rio Grande, changing matters entirely. With the assistance of the sheriffs in the counties through which the railroads passed, the Denver and Rio Grande mounted an attack on their rival's forces. There was heavy fighting at the Atcheson, Topeka, and Santa Fe's garrisons in Colorado. The garrisons in Denver and Colorado Springs fell quickly. Masterson's headquarters in Pueblo held out the longest, but also conceded defeat later that day. There were later some bloodless skirmishes but the wars were essentially over with the Denver and Rio Grande in control of the Royal Gorge." 

3) "Went with Geronimo's raiding party while he remained behind" 

Geronimo led raiding parties from 1858 to his surrendering on September 4, 1886 to General Nelson Appleton Miles of the United States Army. His surrender should took place around the time of Apache Skies. 

4) "Lozen, Geronimo's "good right hand". " 

Lozen was a historical figure, one of the most notable Apache warrior women of the 19th century. She surrendered with Geronimo in 1886. While he was kept prisoner in Florida, she was kept prisoner in Alabama. She died c. 1887 from tuberculosis. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lozen

			*	*	*

Oct 21, 2007 5:18 am 
By JLH

dimadick wrote:
>>>
Any mentioned relation to Raven/Thorn Trask and his sister Nora Trask? 
<<<

Not a one. I'd have hoped for some references to White Swan, Apache's main squeeze for so many tales, but that too was left out. At least Colonel Trask didn't make a comments like, "Trains are like giant mechanical sentinels with which I shall wipe out the lesser race!" or anything.


>>>
I don't think we have had actual Marvel tales dealing with the Wars.
<<<

Supposedly, the FB and mentionings here were a slight set-up for a story about the Wars that John Ostrander wanted to do eventually. Perhaps one day, but considering the timing for it would've been during last year's Marvel Western "event", who knows if ever it'll happen.


>>>
His surrender should took place around the time of Apache Skies.
<<<

It's stated in issue 3 that he's pretty recently surrendered, hence the Apaches being held in San Antonio instead of having been moved across the country.

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Subject: Cyberspace 3000 (1993-4 Marvel UK)

Apr 01, 2007 11:14 am 
By Dhall

This is a weird series. Its set in the Guardians of the Galaxy timeline, in the Thirtieth Century. 
It features the Galactus and Dark Angel of not that timeline, but rather something an internet profile called Earth-M (Earth-7888) No real ties to the MUK that I noticed. The main tie to US Marvel is the appearance of Adam Warlock in issues 6-8. He is in a coma after fighting Magus, sometime in recent issues of WIW, sometime prior to Infinity Crusade. He manages to manifest here, in this timeline, and fight a robot version of Thanos. So, which issues of WIW exactly feature Warlock in a coma after fighting Magus? Thats where these apps. Go for him. 


Cyberspace 3000 #1 
July 1993 
Characters Appearing: 
Murrab 
Captain Jennifer Cabre-Rios 
Commander Ainswoirth 
Engineer Briggs 
Security Chief Yan OnanWro 
Lt. Shan OMeara 
Gardener Jusic Lotin 
Sol (The ships computer) 
Gui 
Doctor Srell 
Brother Mailliw 
Gamble-BTS 

Note: As the title suggests, this series takes place in the Thirtieth Century. 
Summary: The space ship, Sol III is hit by something that is unreadable. The field strikes for a second time, this time killing much of the crew. The Clan Cyorse spread doom and gloom throughout the ship. A fight ensues. Some insect people are up to something, and kill the gardener. IN space, Galactus appears , and he is hungry. 

Cyberspace 3000 #2 
Aug. 1993 
Characters Appearing: 
Galactus 
Captain Jennifer Cabre-Rios 
Security Chief Yan OnanWro 
Lt. Shan OMeara 
Sol 
Doctor Srell 
Gui 
Brother Mailliw (also in fb, between 1 and 2) 
Dark Angel (herald of Galactus) 

The Captain, Security chief, and Lt. OMeara journey to Galactus ship, and confront him. The Clan Cyorse keep on with their recruitment drive. The crew return to the ship, to investigate the insect people. Dark Angel approaches the ship. 

Cyberspace 3000 #3 
Sept. 1993 
Characters Appearing: 
Galactus 
Dark Angel (Kathisul Evin) (Also in origin fb) 
Security Chief Yan OnanWro 
Doctor Srell 
Lt. Shan OMeara 
Silver Surfer (There is an editorial note referencing Guardians of the Galaxy 24 and 25) 
Gui 
Mailliw 
Namerph 
Captain Jennifer Cabre-Rios 
Arthur Smith 
Barnaby Brown 
Sol-BTS 

Galactus prepares for dinner. He is approached by the Keeper (Silver Surfer) Dark Angel fights him. Clan Cyorse tries to take over the ship. Then in 1895, two policemen meet an insect creature. 

Cyberspace 3000 #4 
Oct. 1993 
Characters Appearing: 
Captain Jennifer Cabre-Rios (also in fb between 3 and 4) 
Lt. Shan OMeara (also in fb between 3 and 4) 
Gui (also in fb between 3 and 4) 
Mailliw (also in fb between 3 and 4) 
Doctor Srell (also in fb between 3 and 4) 
Sol 
Security Chief Yan OnanWro (also in fb between 3 and 4) 
Dark Angel 
Keeper/Silver Surfer 

The captain is there, but all readings show she doesnt exist. Meanwhile, she is trapped in the computer system. It turns out that she is dead, and her body is a hologram, which explains why she sometimes disappears. 


Note: Guardians of the Galaxy 25-26 are referenced. Dark Angel tells Surfer that Galactus is not the one from his timeline, but rather another one *-Silver Surfer mini-series by Lee and Moebius. 

Cyberspace 3000 #5 
Nov. 1993 
Characters Appearing: 
Keeper/Silver Surfer 
Galactus 
Dark Angel 
Security Chief Yan OnanWro 
Lt. Shan OMeara 
Sol 
Doctor Srell 
Gui 
Mailliw 
Captain Jennifer Cabre-Rios 

Sol explains to the Captain, that she is merely a hologram that he created, based on her personality, after she died in issue #1. Dark Angel neutralizes Sol as a threat. She is able to return Galactus to his proper timeline, but she is stranded in this one. 

Cyberspace 3000 #6 
Dec. 1993 
Characters Appearing: 
Captain Jennifer Cabre-Rios (recreated as a clone) 
Dark Angel 
Security Chief Yan OnanWro 
Lt. Shan OMeara 
Doctor Srell 
Adam Warlock 
Gui Askran 
Mailliw 
Gamble 
Townsend, Myke 

The team explore a planet of robots, the Captain gets a new body, Gui is killed. Clan Cyorse meets their master, a robotic version of Thanos, the Captain meets Adam Warlock. 

Cyberspace 3000 #7 
Jan. 1994 
Characters Appearing: 
Dark Angel 
Security Chief Yan OnanWro 
Lt. Shan OMeara 
Gamble 
Cribb 
Gyn 
Whyst 
Adam Warlock 
Townsend, Myke 
Gui (body) 
Captain Jennifer Cabre-Rios 
Mailliw 


Note: Adam Warlock refers to his not really being here, my corporeal existence lies on a sickbed on Earth, in a coma, as the result of his battles against his evil doppelganger, the Magus! See recent issues of Warlock and the Infinity Watch. I found myself being brought here in my dreams. 

Summary: The group fight Gamble and his men. 

Cyberspace 3000 #8 
Feb. 1994 
Characters Appearing: 
Cribb 
Gyn 
Whyst 
Dark Angel 
Security Chief Yan OnanWro 
Lt. Shan OMeara 
Captain Jennifer Cabre-Rios 
Adam Warlock 
Townsend, Myke 
Gamble (also in origin fb) 
Mailliw 
Doctor Srell 

On Gamesworld, Warlock fights Thanos who turns out to be a robot. The series ends on a cliffhanger, as Shan tries to rescue Dark Angel, and blows a hole in the hull of the ship. 

Note: Warlock returns to his own time, in this issue See the Infinity Crusade. 


Listings: 

WARLOCK,ADAM 

*CYB3000 6 
*CYB3000 7 
*CYB3000 8 

As mentioned above, this is sometime while he is in a coma in WIW, before Infinity Crusade. 

Characters native to the Guardians of the Galaxy timeline: 

ASKRAN, GUI 
CYB3000 1 
CYB3000 2 
CYB3000 3 
CYB3000 4-FB 
CYB3000 4 
CYB3000 5 
CYB3000 6 
CYB3000 7 

CABRE-RIOS, CAPTAIN JENNIFER 
CYB3000 1 

CABRE-RIOS, CAPTAIN JENNIFER II 
CYB3000 1 
CYB3000 2 
CYB3000 3 
CYB3000 4-FB 
CYB3000 4 
CYB3000 5 
CYB3000 6 
CYB3000 7 
CYB3000 8 

CRIBB 
CYB3000 7 
CYB3000 8 

GAMBLE 
CYB3000 8-FB 
CYB3000 1-BTS 
CYB3000 6 
CYB3000 7 
CYB3000 8 

GYN 
CYB3000 7 
CYB3000 8 



KEEPER | SILVER SURFER 
CYB3000 3 
CYB3000 4 
CYB3000 5 

MAILLIW 
CYB3000 1 
CYB3000 1-FB 
CYB3000 2 
CYB3000 3 
CYB3000 4-FB 
CYB3000 4 
CYB3000 5 
CYB3000 6 
CYB3000 7 
CYB3000 8 

MURRAB 
CYB3000 1 

OMEARA, LT. SHAN 
CYB3000 1 
CYB3000 2 
CYB3000 3 
CYB3000 4-FB 
CYB3000 4 
CYB3000 5 
CYB3000 6 
CYB3000 7 
CYB3000 8 

ONANWRO, SECURITY CHIEF YAN 
CYB3000 1 
CYB3000 2 
CYB3000 3 
CYB3000 4-FB 
CYB3000 4 
CYB3000 5 
CYB3000 6 
CYB3000 7 
CYB3000 8 

SOL 
CYB3000 1 
CYB3000 2 
CYB3000 3-BTS 
CYB3000 4 
CYB3000 5 

SRELL 
CYB3000 1 
CYB3000 2 
CYB3000 3 
CYB3000 4-FB 
CYB3000 4 
CYB3000 5 
CYB3000 6 
CYB3000 8 

TOWNSEND, MYKE 
CYB3000 6 
CYB3000 7 
CYB3000 8 

WHYST 
CYB3000 7 
CYB3000 8 


Characters native to Earth-M/Earth-7888 timeline: 

DARK ANGEL/KATHISUL EVIN | EARTH-7888 
CYB3000 2 
CYB3000 3 
CYB3000 4 
CYB3000 5 
CYB3000 6 
CYB3000 7 
CYB3000 8 

GALACTUS | EARTH-7888 
CYB3000 2 
CYB3000 3 
CYB3000 5

			*	*	*

Apr 01, 2007 3:14 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Dhall wrote:
>>>
It features the Galactus and Dark Angel of not that timeline, but rather something an internet profile called Earth-M (Earth-7888)
<<<

"Earth-M" is the name that the Appendix gave to the world of the Lee/Kirby Silver Surfer graphic novel and the Lee/Moebius Silver Surfer: Parable miniseries.

			*	*	*

Apr 01, 2007 3:23 pm 
By Dhall

ok, the comics refers to the Lee/Mobius miniseries, so the reference is correct.

			*	*	*

Apr 01, 2007 10:13 pm 
By JLH

Dhall wrote:
>>>
 So, which issues of WIW exactly feature Warlock in a coma after fighting Magus? Thats where these apps. Go for him.
<<<

Warlock and the Infinity Watch #11-15.

			*	*	*

Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:46 am 
By Ethain

I did miss this Adam Warlock reference, so really really thank you for posting it. I'm an exhaustive Adam Warlock (and close-related character & Infinity Gems) collector (and obsesive chronollogist, I'm afraid) since 1972, so discovering this has been something happy for me!

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Subject: All Winners Comics 1-4

Oct 18, 2007 11:33 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

All Winners Comics #1 
Summer, 1941 

Appearances: 
Human Torch(Jim Hammond), Toro, Matzu 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12 
The Torch hears of a Chinese fund-raising effort and offers to help. At the event, super-spy Matzu steals the money and runs off. The Torch and Toro follow and eventually subdue him, retrieving the money. 

All Winners Comics #1/2 

Appearances: 
Black Marvel(Dan Lyons), the Hood 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12 
In Los Angeles, the Hood and his minions rob a bank. A week later, Dan Lyons, the Black Hood, intercepts the Order of the Hood during another robbery. The next day the Black Marvel tries to stop a jewelry heist but instead is captured by the Hoods men. Hes brought to their hideout where he breaks free and kills the Hood. 

All Winners Comics #1/3 

Appearances: 
Captain America, Bucky, Sgt. Duffy, the Lord of Death, Adolph Hitler 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg13 
The Lord of Death receives his orders from Hitler: destroy the lend-lease materials so the Americans will stop helping the British. That night, he sends his army of zombies to the docks, where Steve and Bucky are on guard duty, to do just that. The zombies destroy some materials, and the next day Sgt. Duffy yells at them for not guarding the docks. That night, Steve and Bucky disguise themselves as bums to find out where the zombies are coming from. Theyre eventually recruited by the Lord of Death, who tries to kill them so he can reanimate them for his army. They defeat him quickly, and intercept a phone call from Hitler, whos checking in to see how things are going. Bucky belches over the phone in response. 

All Winners Comics #1/4 

Appearances: 
Namor, the Sub-Mariner 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12 
Off the coast of Virginia, Namor comes across a fleet of German saboteurs. After defeating a handful of them, he lets the Coast Guard know about it, and they send out boats to clean up the rest of the stationed German agents. 

All Winners Comics #1/5 

Appearances: 
The Angel(Thomas Halloway), the Gargoyle 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12 
Hearing of disappearing planes, the Angel travels to Yucatan to investigate. Once he arrives, but before his plane can land, its grabbed mid-air magnetically. He jumps out and parachutes down, but the plane is captured. The Angel looks around and finds a temple, but it attacked and captured. Hes brought to a cell, where the crews of the captured planes are being held. Together they break free and kill the Gargoyle, the man responsible for capturing the planes. 

All Winners Comics #2 
Fall, 1941 

Appearances: 
Human Torch(Jim Hammond), Toro, 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5pn1 
On vacation, the Human Torch and Toro are out skiing when Mack is killed. They go to ask his partner Howe why anyone would want to kill him. 
Pg5pn2-pg5pn7-FB 
Price, a knife thrower, is in Mack & Howes building when it catches on fire. Hes burned horribly but survives, and blames Mack for starting the fire. Mack is eventually found not guilty of arson, and price is put into a state mental hospital. 
Pg5pn8-pg8pn2 
The Torch makes a phone call and discovers that Price has escaped from the hospital, and theyre attacked. They check on Howe, whos been stabbed, and the Torch accuses Howe of being the real murderer. 
Pg8pn3-pg8pn5-FB 
Howe has an argument with Mack, then frees Price from the hospital and forces him to teach him how to throw knives. 
Pg8pn6-pg12 
The Torch and Toro arrest Howe and bring Price back to the hospital, because he never wanted to leave in the first place. 

All Winners Comics #2/2 

Appearances: 
Captain America, Bucky, 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12 
Steve and Bucky are assigned to Singapore on an intelligence mission. On the way, however, the plane goes down in a storm and theyre eventually captures by Malay natives. Its revealed that the pilot was a Nazi spy, and theyre being held for torture to discover American plans. They overpower the Nazi and his natives, and theyre picked up by a detachment of united States sailors to continue their trip to Singapore. 

All Winners Comics #2/3 

Appearances: 
The Destroyer!, Adolph Hitler, Florence Von Banger 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12 
Keen Marlow discovers that a friend of his, Florence, has been arrested. The Gestapo try to arrest him, but he overpowers them and escapes. He turns into the Destroyer and searches for her uncle, Professor Berg. Meanwhile, Berg is being tortured by the Gestapo. The Destroyer tries to free him, but hes defeated and escapes. He makes his way to the nearest prison camp, disguises himself as a guard and frees Florence. Meanwhile, Berg is forced to make plague bombs for the Nazis, and Hitler arrives to personally check on the progress. The Destroyer arrives and foils his plans. 

All Winners Comics #2/4 
This is already listed in the Whizzers chronology, but hes in the fourth story and not the first. 

All Winners Comics #2/5 

Appearances: 
Namor, the Sub-Mariner 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12 
A Nazi ghost fleet has been sinking British vessels in the Atlantic, so Namor goes to investigate. He discovers that the German ship Remden has a mobile aquatic projector that makes it appear a fleet is nearby, then it attacks from the other direction. He destroys the ship and turns the crew over to the British. 

All Winners Comics #3 
Winter, 1941-1942 

Appearances: 
Human Torch(Jim Hammond), Toro, 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12 
Out on the town, the Torch and Toro happen across a Japanese terrorist. When they try to subdue him, he shoots himself in the head so hes not caught. They go to investigate and discover hes an agent of the Black Dragon Society, a Japanese military terrorist group. After some looking around Torch gets a job at an oil well, where Japanese agents are smuggling oil for their government. After burning some of them alive, they arrest the leader. 

All Winners Comics #3/2 

Appearances: 
Captain America, Bucky, Mad Artist(Col. Rand) 

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg12 
The Mad Artist is killing military officials with his hypnotic paint! Captain America and Bucky find and confront him, and he kills himself by huffing his own paint. Its discovered that hes actually Col. Rand, a dirty spy. 

All Winners Comics #3/3 
This is already listed in the Whizzers chronology, but hes in the third story and not the first. 

All Winners Comics #3/4 

Appearances: 
Namor, the Sub-Mariner, Daglio 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12 
Namors out for a swim when he comes across a ship under mutiny. They crew has overtaken the ship, led by Daglio, to recover sunken treasure. Namor helps stop the mutiny and hands the treasure to the owner of the ship. 

All Winners Comics #3/5 

Appearances: 
The Destroyer!, Florence Von Banger 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12 
The Destroyer learns of a Nazi plot to tunnel into Britain and invade it secretly. After attacking some supply lines, hes captured and learns his fianc is being held in a concentration camp. He frees her and destroys the work started on the tunnel. 

References: 
Last issue, Florence was the Destroyers girlfriend, and this issue shes his fianc. 

Also, weve run into a time thats roughly post-Invaders. As originally presented, Keen Marlow was the Destroyer. The Invaders retconned Keen Marlow into an identity for Brian Falsworth, who was actually the Destroyer, and there wasnt actually ever a Keen Marlow. What were left with is Brian, the Destroyer, who used the identity of Keen Marlow in his pursuits in destroying Nazi Germany.(kind of like Batman, in a way. Bruce Wayne is his actual identity, but he occasionally uses other identities for various reasons) However, were now into a period after when the Invaders series takes place, and Brian is no longer the Destroyer, Roger Aubrey is. The Golden Age handbook suggests that there actually was a Keen Marlow, and that there were possibly two Destroyers running around at the same time. Im not seeing anything in the comics that suggests this, taking into account the retcon of it actually being Brian in Mystic Comics #1, and not Keen Marlow. Ill suggest that Roger kept the identity of Keen Marlow for his own uses, and that identity should be included in his chronology.(Brian and Roger look similar enough to each other for this to work) MSU 9 tends to support this, as he and Brian continue to use coded identities when communicating with each other. 

All Winners Comics #4 
Spring, 1942 

Appearances: 
Human Torch(Jim Hammond), Toro, Chief John C. Wilson, Moppino 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12 
Japanese spy Moppino has Rawlins, inventor of the Atom Expansion Gun, killed. Chief Wilson calls in the Torch who investigates. Moppino attacks the Torch and Toro with the gun, then turns it on the Statue of Liberty, damaging it. The Torch and Toro quickly capture and defeat Moppino, seemingly killing him. 

All Winners Comics #4/2 

Appearances: 
Captain America, Bucky, Sgt. Duffy, the Sorcerer 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12 
Stationed in the Pacific Theater, Sgt. Duffy gives Steve and Bucky tickets to a magicians show. After a suspicious act where the Sorcerer makes a Colonel disappear, and then himself, Captain America and Bucky investigate. They find him torturing the Colonel for information for Japanese interests and arrest him. 

All Winners Comics #4/3 
This is already listed in the Whizzers chronology, but hes in the third story and not the first. 

All Winners Comics #4/4 

Appearances: 
Namor, the Sub-Mariner, Dr. Sak 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12 
American boats have been destroyed by Axis submarines along the Atlantic coast, so Washington asks for Namors help. He discovers that the u-boats are stationed on a hidden island run by Dr. Sak, but hes captured. He quickly escapes, kills Dr. Sak, and calls in the navy to destroy the island. 

All Winners Comics #4/5 

Appearances: 
The Destroyer!, Adolph Hitler, Florence Von Banger 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12 
Hitler orders the Destroyer to be killed. Elsewhere, the Destroyer is working with the German underground resistance when they discover that a pastor is to be executed, so off he goes. After meeting with Von Banger he frees the pastor and brings him to safety. 

References: 
Last issue, Von Banger is referenced as the Destroyers fianc. Here, shes just a friend in the underground resistance. I think between issues 3 & 4 would be the best place to put the break between Destroyers I & II. 

Some placement suggestions: 

HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND 
 
HUMAN TORCH 5A 
HUMAN TORCH 5A/2 
CA 423 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 17 
YOUNG ALLIES 1 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 1 
HUMAN TORCH 5B (1-55:3) 
MARVELS 1 (38-39) 
HUMAN TORCH 5B (55:4-60) 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 2
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 3 
INV 29-FB 
 
TCORPS 2 (1942) 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 4 
CA: SL2 2-FB 
 
(for some strange reason, I had Young Allies 1 before Marvel Mystery 17 in previous suggestions for the Torch & Toro. Thats, um, not right. Sorry about that) 

TORO/TOM RAYMOND 
 
HUMAN TORCH 5A 
HUMAN TORCH 5A/2 
YOUNG ALLIES 1 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 1 
HUMAN TORCH 5B 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 2
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 3 
INV 29-FB 
 
TCORPS 2 (1942) 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 4 
CA5 5-FB (11/42) 
 

WILSON, JOHN C. CHIEF 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7 (1-4:6) 
SAGAHT 2 (6:1-6:4) 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7 (4:7-5) 
SAGAHT 2 (6:8-7:3) 
SAGASM 3 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7 (12) 
SAGASM 4 (1-15) 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 9 
SAGASM 4 (16-22) 
HUMAN TORCH 4 
HUMAN TORCH 5A 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 4 
... 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
... 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 4/4 
YOUNG ALLIES 1 
TOS 66/2-FB 
TOS 66/2 
TOS 67/2 
TOS 68/2 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 1/3 
UX 268 (1-5)-FB (08/41) 
 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 7/3 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 2/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 8 
 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 9/3 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 3/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 10 
 
TCORPS 2 (1942) 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 4/2 
CA '98-FB 
 

BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN BUCKY BARNES 
 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 4/4 
YOUNG ALLIES 1 
TOS 66/2-FB-BTS 
TOS 66/2-BTS 
TOS 67/2 
TOS 68/2 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 1/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 5 
 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 7/3 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 2/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 8 
 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 9/3 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 3/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 10 
 
TCORPS 2 (1942) 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 4/2 
CA '98-FB 
 

DUFFY, SGT. MIKE 
CA 109-FB 
TOS 63/2 
CA: SL2 12-FB 
TOS 64/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1/4~TOS 65/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 2/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 2/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 3/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 4/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 4/4 
TOS 68/2 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 1/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 5 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 5/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 6/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 7 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 7/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 8 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 8/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 8/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 9/2 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 9/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 10/3 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 22/3 
CA 139-FB 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 4/2 
CA 219-FB 
TOS 69/2 
TOS 70/2 

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 17 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 2 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 2/2 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 1/4 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 3 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 2/5 
HUMAN TORCH 5B (1-55:3) 
MARVELS (38-39) 
HUMAN TORCH 5B (55:4-60) 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 4 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 4/2 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 3/4 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 23 
INV 29-FB 
 
TC 2 (1942) 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 4/4 
CA: SL2 2-FB 
 

DESTROYER/BRIAN FALSWORTH/"KEEN MARLOW" 
INV 19-FB 
INV 19-FB 
{MYSTIC COMICS 1} 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 2/3
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 3/5 
INV 18 
INV 19 (1-15) 
INV 21-FB 
See Union Jack II 

DESTROYER II/ROGER AUBREY/KEEN MARLOW 
From Dyna-Mite 
INV 26 
INV 34-FB 
INV 34 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 4/5 
MARVELS 1 
MSU 9 (01/45) 
CV 1-FB 
CV 2-FB 
TB 42-FB 
 

VON BANGER, FLORENCE FLORA 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 2/3 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 3/5 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 4/5 

ANGEL/THOMAS HALLOWAY (1940's hero) 
MARVEL COMICS 1/2 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/2 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3/2 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/2 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/2 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6/2 
MARVELS 1 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/2 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/2 
HUMAN TORCH 5A/3 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 1/3 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 2/3 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 1/5 
HUMAN TORCH 5B 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 3/2 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 4/3 
CV 1-FB 
 

BLACK MARVEL/DAN LYONS 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 1/2 
MARVELS 1 
CA 442 
 

WHIZZER/ROBERT L. FRANK 
... 
INV2 4 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 2/4
ALL WINNERS COMICS 3/3
ALL WINNERS COMICS 4/3 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 5 
USA COMICS 4 
 
USA COMICS 12 
**M/U 1
**M/U 2 (05/44)
**M/U 3 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 13 
 
(M/U 1-3 take place in May of 1944, but theyre currently placed with comics published in 1942) 

GARGOYLE 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 1/5 

HOOD 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 1/2 
(the only reason I included those two are because later characters shared the same name. So you know, numerations and all that...) 

HITLER, ADOLF 
 
Z: BB 4 
CA: ME-FB (1939) 
HUMAN TORCH 3/2 
SAGASM 5 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 1 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 2/2 
TOS 67/2 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 1/3
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 2/3 
HUMAN TORCH 5B 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 22/3 
GSINV 1-FB 
SGTF 1 
SGTF 5-BTS 
INV@ 1-FB 
INV@ 1-BTS 
M/TIO@ 1-FB 
INV 16 
INV 17 
INV 18 
INV 19 
INV 20 
INV 21 
SGTF 14 
INV 32 
INV 33 
DRSTR2 51 
SGTF 28 
SGTF 29 
GSINV 2-BTS (06/19/42) 
*ALL WINNERS COMICS 4/5 
TRUTH 6-FB 
SGTF 32 
 

Up next: Most likely USA Comics 1-4!

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Oct 19, 2007 7:34 pm 
By Adamant

What about the text story in All-Winners #2? Canon or not?

			*	*	*

Oct 19, 2007 7:58 pm 
By Enda80

"Out on the town, the Torch and Toro happen across a Japanese terrorist. When they try to subdue him, he shoots himself in the head so hes not caught. They go to investigate and discover hes an agent of the Black Dragon Society, a Japanese military terrorist group. After some looking around Torch gets a job at an oil well, where Japanese agents are smuggling oil for their government. After burning some of them alive, they arrest the leader."

The Black Dragons also appeared in Captain America Comics#24.

"What were left with is Brian, the Destroyer, who used the identity of Keen Marlow in his pursuits in destroying Nazi Germany.(kind of like Batman, in a way. Bruce Wayne is his actual identity, but he occasionally uses other identities for various reasons) 

You are thinking of Matches Malone, his alternate identity. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matches_Malone

This idea of various alternate identities is also reflected by Moon Knight (who uses Jake Lockley as an additional identity and Steven Grant) who references the Shadow's use of alternate identities (he is really Kent Allard but poses as Lamont Cranston), the Spider's alternate identity of Blinky McQuade, and perhaps further back to the Gray Seal's identity as Larry the Bat.

MOON KNIGHT/MARC SPECTOR/"STEVEN GRANT"/"JAKE LOCKLEY"
is how the project documents this situation.

			*	*	*

Oct 19, 2007 8:56 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Adamant wrote:
>>>
What about the text story in All-Winners #2? Canon or not?
<<<

Personally, I don't consider the text stories canon. That may be an extension of my interpretation of the 'novels aren't canon' bit, or that they're in a format other than 'comic,' or some other reason I can't remember at the moment... I swear I had three reasons.  What do others think?


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
The Black Dragons also appeared in Captain America Comics#24. 
<<<

Sweet!


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
MOON KNIGHT/MARC SPECTOR/"STEVEN GRANT"/"JAKE LOCKLEY" 
is how the project documents this situation.Which is the same thing as: 
DESTROYER/BRIAN FALSWORTH/"KEEN MARLOW" 
<<<

So I take it you're agreeing with my Destroyer II suggestion?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Oct 19, 2007 10:18 pm 
By Adamant

I don't see why the text stories shouldn't be considered canon. They star the same characters as the comics, and they were published in the exact same books, often written by people who wrote scripts for the comics in the same books... the only real difference is he format. 

All-Winners #2 is a bit on the iffy side, as it walks all over the fourth wall with Cap, Torch and Subby welcoming the Destoryer and the Whizzer to the book after retelling their latest adventures, but there's nothing that really sets other stories apart from the comics published in the same books. Hell, the Patriot's origin was told in a text story rather than a comic.

			*	*	*

Oct 19, 2007 10:39 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Adamant wrote:
>>>
the Patriot's origin was told in a text story rather than a comic.
<<<

Do you know what issue that's in, off-hand? The earliest appearance for the Patriot in the MCP is Marvel Mystery Comics 21, which I don't have, but everything I can find on it says that the Patriot story in that issue isn't text.(from what I can find, the text story in that issue is 'the story behind the cover') If the text-origin for the Patriot is in some other comic, then perhaps the choice to not include it was intentional, as the Patriot's chronology is one of the more complete Golden Age listings in the MCP. On the other hand, perhaps the text-origin wasn't made aware of when the Patriot's chronology was put together.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Oct 20, 2007 5:20 am 
By Enda80

As Max Allan Collins pointed out, the presence of text stories in the Golden Age had to do with certain postal regulations. That said, they are present. 

There are plenty of text stories in later years, post-Golden Age, that have been cited by handbooks and other issues. Night Raven is an example. Dracula, Jack Russell Werewolf, and Man-Thing have been featured in text stories. The British published annuals featured text stories, I once found one with a couple of Fantastic Four text stories. Have these been cited in these characters' chronologies?

			*	*	*

Oct 20, 2007 1:17 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Adamant wrote:
>>>
I don't see why the text stories shouldn't be considered canon. They star the same characters as the comics, and they were published in the exact same books, often written by people who wrote scripts for the comics in the same books... the only real difference is he format.
<<<

When a character is spoken of, in a comic story, it's not an appearance. At best, it's a behind-the-scenes appearance. In text stories, no one "appears." We'll run into all sorts of problems about what constitutes a behind-the-scenes appearance. 


watching: alabama vs tennessee

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

Oct 20, 2007 6:45 pm 
By Adamant

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Adamant wrote:
>>>
the Patriot's origin was told in a text story rather than a comic.
<<<

Do you know what issue that's in, off-hand? The earliest appearance for the Patriot in the MCP is Marvel Mystery Comics 21, which I don't have, but everything I can find on it says that the Patriot story in that issue isn't text.(from what I can find, the text story in that issue is 'the story behind the cover') If the text-origin for the Patriot is in some other comic, then perhaps the choice to not include it was intentional, as the Patriot's chronology is one of the more complete Golden Age listings in the MCP. On the other hand, perhaps the text-origin wasn't made aware of when the Patriot's chronology was put together.
<<<

It's in Human Torch Comics #4, the book where the Patriot was originally featured prior to his appearances in Marvel Mystery. I'm not completely sure why Torch #4 is listed after Marvel Mystery #21, as Torch #4 has an ad for Marvel Mystery #20, and Marvel Mystery #20 has an ad for Torch #4 on the cover.

			*	*	*

Oct 20, 2007 6:54 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
When a character is spoken of, in a comic story, it's not an appearance. At best, it's a behind-the-scenes appearance. In text stories, no one "appears." We'll run into all sorts of problems about what constitutes a behind-the-scenes appearance.
<<<

I ... can't really agree with that. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Oct 20, 2007 7:21 pm 
By Jason Doty

Could we just add something behind the story placement such as (text)?

			*	*	*

Oct 20, 2007 8:19 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I don't even think that's necessary. I have yet to read a text story that couldn't be summarized into MCP format like any comic story. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Oct 21, 2007 12:00 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Have these been cited in these characters' chronologies?
<<<

Not that I can find. 


Administrator wrote:
>>>
In text stories, no one "appears." 
<<<

Not only that, but how would we handle page/panel ranges for FlashBacks?(I knew there was a third reason!  )


Adamant wrote:
>>>
It's in Human Torch Comics #4
<<<

I went back and read the text story in that issue... it doesn't read like an origin. According to the FlashBack,('about a year ago...') he already had his costume on under his clothes. Are you sure it's that one?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Oct 22, 2007 12:25 pm 
By ShadZ

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Enda80 wrote:
>>>
The Black Dragons also appeared in Captain America Comics#24.
<<<

Sweet!
<<<

The Black Dragon Society existed in the real world too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokuryu-kai

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Subject: USA Comics 1-4

Oct 24, 2007 2:55 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

USA Comics #1 
August, 1941 

Appearances: 
Defender(Don Stevens), Rusty 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg18 
Don and Rusty are with Sally when they notice Japanese men being thrown off a boat. They investigate, but are kicked off. They return in costume and take care of business. 

USA Comics #1/2 
The Whizzers origin story is already listed in the MCP, but this is the second story and not the first. Also, hes missing a FlashBack that precedes the main story. 

USA Comics #1/3 

Appearances: 
Major Liberty(Prof. John Liberty), Paul Revere(ghost), Ethan Allen & the Green Mountain Boys(ghosts) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg10 
John Liberty reads about sabotage in the paper and a ghost appears and gives him a costume. Then, the ghost of Paul Revere appears and they take a ride on his ghost horse. They find a group of German saboteurs, Paul Revere calls up the ghosts of Ethan Allen & the Green Mountain Boys while Mr. Liberty calls up some boy scouts, and together they defeat the Germans. 

References: 
The strip is called Mr. Liberty, and the main guys name is John Liberty. Next issue theyll switch it up to Major Liberty, which is what his hero name will be from there on out. Since this is his origin issue Ill say that he just hadnt come up with a name yet here. 

USA Comics #1/4 

Appearances: 
Rockman 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg9 
Rockman, ruler of Abysmia, learns of a plan to sabotage an American factory. He travels to the surface and foils their plot. 

USA Comics #1/5 

Appearances: 
Young Avenger(Bill Bryan), Eric Von Himmel 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg10 
Eric Von Himmel, master spy is in town so teenager Bill Bryan changes into the Young Avenger to capture him. He confronts him at his secret base and captures his men, but Von Himmel escapes. 

USA Comics #1/6 
This issue is already in Jack Frosts chronology, but hes in the sixth story and not the first. 

USA Comics #2 
November, 1941 
This issue is already in Captain Terrors chronology. 

USA Comics #2/2 

Appearances: 
Major Liberty(Prof. John Liberty) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7 
Historian John Liberty is on vacation in the Caribbean when his cruise ship is attacked by a Nazi submarine. He makes it to shore but is captured by spies, and he quickly destroys their base. 

USA Comics #2/3 

Appearances: 
Vagabond(Murphy, Chauncey Throttlebottom III) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8 
Theres a smuggling operation in Middleton, but officer Murphys face is to well known for him to do anything about it. So, he decides to dress up like a hobo. He infiltrates the smugglers, beats them up and leaves them for the police. 

References: 
Uh yeah. 

USA Comics #2/4 

Appearances: 
Defender(Don Stevens), Rusty 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7 
The Defender & Rusty stop a plot to overthrow the Mexican Government. 

USA Comics #2/5 

Appearances: 
Rockman, Zombo 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7 
Zombo has been sinking submarines, so Rockman destroys his island base and kills him! 

USA Comics #2/6 
This issue is already in Jack Frosts chronology, but hes in the sixth story and not the first. 

USA Comics #2/7 
This issue is already in the Whizzers chronology, but hes in the seventh story and not the first. 

USA Comics #3 
January, 1942 
This issue is already in Captain Terrors chronology. 

USA Comics #3/2 

Appearances: 
Major Liberty(Prof. John Liberty), Paul Revere(ghost), Headless Horseman(Peter Vermeer) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7 
Prof. Libertys old college dean is murdered, so he calls on the ghost of Paul Revere to help avenge him. They arrive in Sleepy Hollow and fight the Headless Horseman to discover its actually just a man dressed up. He killed the college dean, his uncle, to benefit from his will. 

USA Comics #3/3 

Appearances: 
Vagabond(Murphy, Chauncey Throttlebottom III) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8 
Orrible Oress, the crime boss in Middleton, blows up a building. The Vagabond tracks him down and kills him, putting a stop to his crime spree. 

USA Comics #3/4 

Appearances: 
Defender(Don Stevens), Rusty 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7 
On furlough, Don and Rusty go to the circus and see the strong man. When the moon comes out, the strong man transforms into a monster. The Defender & Rusty fight him off, but he runs away. The next day they return to the circus and throw the monster off a cliff. 

USA Comics #3/5 

Appearances: 
Rockman, Princess Alecia 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7 
Princess Alecia of Jugoslavia is kidnapped and brought to the underground Pixie King, who thinks shes pretty and wants to marry her. The King of Jugoslavia asks Rockman to save her, so he does. After Rockman disposes of the Pixie King, he appoints his own Prime Minister to rule the underground Pixie Kingdom, adding it to his own underground empire, Abysmia. 

USA Comics #3/6 
This issue is already in Jack Frosts chronology, but hes in the sixth story and not the first. 

USA Comics #3/7 

Appearances: 
Tom Powers, Kenny Roberts, Cupid Cueball 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6 
Gangsters steal a million dollars, so reporter Tom Powers and his photographer Kenny Roberts solve the crime before the police can. Yay! 

USA Comics #4 
May, 1942 

Appearances: 
Major Liberty(Prof. John Liberty) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7 
German refugee chemist Hans Stiller has just perfected a super-explosive and tells his buddy Professor John Liberty all about it. Later, Hans is captured by German spies. John hears about the disappearance and rescues him as Major Liberty. 

USA Comics #4/2 
This issue is already in Jack Frosts chronology, but hes in the second story and not the first. 

USA Comics #4/3 

Appearances: 
Defender(Don Stevens), Rusty, Fog(Prof. Rhinestone) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7 
Marines Don & Rusty, on leave from Nicaragua, visit Middleton to discover the city in a thick fog. After poking around, they discover Prof. Rhinestone has evil plans for the town, so they kill him. 

USA Comics #4/4 

Appearances: 
Vagabond(Murphy, Chauncey Throttlebottom III) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8 
The Mad Monk is causing trouble in Middleton, so Murphy turns into the Vagabond to investigate. He discovers that the Mad Monk is actually Dr. Jurk the psychiatrist. However, Dr. Jurk is an alias for Rudolph Parsons, a guy who stole a million dollars twenty years ago. He kept all the money, having never spent it in all that time. 

References: 
According to the intro, the Vagabonds next appearance is in Young Allies #4, and then again in Comedy Comics #11. As far as I can tell, hes in the fourth and fifth stories, respectively. 

USA Comics #4/5 
This issue is already in Captain Terrors chronology, but hes in the fifth story and not the first. 

USA Comics #4/6 

Appearances: 
Rockman 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7 
La Barbie is killing miners in Alaska to take their gold for himself. Rockman hears about it, travels to Alaska, and kills La Barbie. 

USA Comics #4/7 

Appearances: 
Cpl. Jeff Dix, Joe Dix, Ma Dix 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6 
Cpl. Dix is on leave so he goes home to visit his mom and brother. Joe is wrapped up with the local mob, so Cpl. Dix beats the hell out of the mobsters and convinces Joe to join the home guard. 

References: 
According to the intro, Cpl. Dix is changed to Sgt. Dix next issue. 

USA Comics #4/8 
This issue is already in the Whizzers chronology, but hes in the eighth story and not the first. 

Some placement suggestions: 

DEFENDER/DON STEVENS 
USA COMICS 1 
USA COMICS 2/4 
USA COMICS 3/4 
USA COMICS 4/3 
(the Defender from Uncanny 27 should be bumped to Defender II) 

MAJOR LIBERTY/PROF. JOHN LIBERTY 
USA COMICS 1/3 
USA COMICS 2/2 
USA COMICS 3/2 
USA COMICS 4 

REVERE, PAUL 
USA COMICS 1/3 
USA COMICS 3/2 

ALLEN, ETHAN 
USA COMICS 1/3 

ROCKMAN 
USA COMICS 1/4 
USA COMICS 2/5 
USA COMICS 3/5 
USA COMICS 4/6 

YOUNG AVENGER/BILL BRYAN 
USA COMICS 1/5 

VAGABOND/MURPHY/CHAUNCEY THROTTLEBOTTOM III 
USA COMICS 2/3 
USA COMICS 3/3 
USA COMICS 4/4 
YOUNG ALLIES 4/4 
COMEDY COMICS 11/5 

CAPTAIN TERROR/DAN KANE 
USA COMICS 2 
USA COMICS 3 
USA COMICS 4/5 
CA 442 

WHIZZER/ROBERT L. FRANK 
*USA COMICS 1/2-FB 
USA COMICS 1/2
USA COMICS 2/7 
M/PRM 29 
 
INV2 4 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 2/4 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 3/3 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 4/3 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 5 
USA COMICS 4/8 
USA COMICS 6 
 

JACK FROST/ 
USA COMICS 1/6
USA COMICS 2/6
USA COMICS 3/6
USA COMICS 4/2 
M/PRM 29 

Im not too sure what to do with Corporal Dix, since hes Sgt. Dix for every appearance except for his first. He will continue to appear in USA Comics, so for now Ill just suggest: 

DIX, JEFF 
USA COMCIS 4/7

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Subject: Chronology "Break-Points"

Oct 19, 2007 3:25 am 
By Nathan P. Mahney

In my current chronologising efforts, I'm trying to chop Marvel continuity up into manageable segments. The end-points for each segment are stories where pretty much every character appears. In the 80s it's easy, because there were lots of crossovers and events - Contest of Champions, both Secret Wars, Acts of Vengeance, etc. The 90s are similar, with Age of Apocalypse and Onslaught. 

The 60s and 70s are much harder, though I've made a start using Amazing Spider-Man Annual #1 as my first break-point and Fantastic Four Annual #3 as my second. So what I'm wondering is, what stories or issues were there in those decades that featured or impacted on most of the characters?

- Nathan P. Mahney -

			*	*	*

Oct 19, 2007 6:53 pm 
By Agent of Shield

Some of my suggestions: 

Strange Tales #156 (Hydra takes over the...you know) 
Avengers #60 (marriage of Janet Van Dyne to Henry Pym) 
Avengers #118 (Avengers/Defenders War) 
Marvel Graphic Novel #1 (death of Captain Marvel)

			*	*	*

Oct 20, 2007 12:18 pm 
By metaldragon

The Secret Empire story wove among a couple of different titles (Amazing Adventures w/ Beast, Shana, Avengers), ending in Captain America 175.

"May the Light shine forever!"
