	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Cable #45-FB
2. The Saga of Crystar Crystal Warrior
3. Ambrose Connors
4. Ghost Rider in Nightbreed#13?
5. Bendis blows continuity...again
6. Rapprochement Day in FF #551
7. 1958 Annotation for Scarlet Witch/Quicksilver/Werewolf
8. Ah.... this could be fun... [MODOK's 11 SPOILERS]
9. Mystery Heroine in ROM #65
10. PPTSS 165-167
11. Placement of flashbacks in World War Hulk: Gamma Corps #2
12. Marvel Giveaways
13. Initiative 7
14. Parentheses
15. Publication Dates
16. Endangered Species and other X-placements
17. Hobgoblin
18. Classic X-Men establishes that Storm worships Gaea
19. Marvel Atlas #1
20. Thor timeline circa '81

	Issue Analysis Forum
21. Immortal Iron Fist #8-9 + Annual #1
22. Moon Knight 13
23. Daredevil 95-100
24. Mystic Arcana: Sister Grimm
25. Agents of ATLAS 1-6!
26. November call for analyses
27. What The--?! #10, first story
28. Chronology Review for Hulk Vol. 3 #104-105
29. Underworld 1-5
30. Golden Age Sub-Mariner Comics
31. Zemo -- Born Better #1


Thread 1

Subject: Cable #45-FB

Oct 30, 2007 2:01 am 
By wolframbane

In Cable #45-FB, Cable, shortly after he arrives in the modern era, helps Charles Xavier add advanced techology to the mansion. Any idea where this happens in Charles' chronology?

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Nov 01, 2007 6:54 pm 
By Mikhail

Probably between scenes of UXM #309. After his accident in the Himalayas with Lucifer, but before Scott Summers first lived under his roof. Also before X-Men # -1, I'd wager.

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Nov 01, 2007 11:52 pm 
By SeanCurtin

The first time that a Cerebro prototype is seen is UX 273-FB, which occurs after Xavier is crippled and he begins teaching Jean, and several years before Scott moves in. I'd put this shortly before that, as Cerebro is Xavier's archetypal piece of high-tech equipment.

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Nov 02, 2007 2:38 pm 
By Mikhail

Wait, what about that one panel flashback from the first V-Battalion limited series...didn't that reference Cyberno or some other Cerebro prototype?

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Nov 02, 2007 8:45 pm 
By SeanCurtin

It's specifically named as Cerebro in CV 1, but it appears to be a more advanced unit in that flashback.

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Thread 2

Subject: The Saga of Crystar Crystal Warrior

Nov 02, 2007 3:31 pm 
By scottandrewhutchins

This isn't really a toy comic, since Marvel came up with the idea and sold it to Remco, so is it canon or not? I ask because only the mainstream Marvel characters are in the chronology.

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Nov 03, 2007 6:20 am 
By lkseitz

It's canon (and can be found in the Key), but because it takes place in another dimension, the stars of the comic aren't listed in the MCP. (Yet?)

Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Thread 3

Subject: Ambrose Connors

Nov 03, 2007 3:20 pm 
By Enda80

A-Z Update#4 reveals Connors (Hawkeye's associate at CTE) as having the forename of Ambrose. Also, it reveals that the Atom-Smasher (Ronald O'English) hired cannon fodder from the Taskmaster in his first appearance. Does the Taskmaster deserve a BTS? 

I will keep a look out at any other random thugs that the Handbook attributes as Taskmaster trainees.

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Thread 4

Subject: Ghost Rider in Nightbreed#13?

Nov 02, 2007 6:15 am 
By Enda80

I wil have to dig this up, but I am told he made a cameo. I will check it when I get a chance. Mystic Arcana referencs some of the Barker characters.

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Nov 02, 2007 8:15 am 
By Somebody
Director

So, uhhh.... why not wait until you've "dug it up", like, before you, y'know, post like this? 

If I randomly said someplace else that, say, Cable cameos in (random issue, say Amazing Spider-Man #385), would you jump up, make a thread, THEN check it as you were going to do? 

And WTF do "the Barker characters" (?) being referenced in Arcana have do do with the subject line?

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Nov 02, 2007 8:24 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

That's his ham-fisted way of pointing out that Nightbreed, which was a comic based off the Clive Barker movie 'Nightbreed', and that Clive Barker had a line of comics back in the '90s, were referenced in a roundabout way in a recent handbook, and therefore the Clive Barker line of comics may be 616. 

If that was his ultimate point, though, why bring up the Ghost Rider bit until he's had a chance to check? Why not instead title the thread 'Clive Barker Comics referenced in Mytic Arcana' and leave Ghost Rider out of it? And, I dunno, maybe mention which comics were referenced?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

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Nov 02, 2007 8:28 pm 
By Enda80

In the back of Mystic Arcana, MCP#55/2, in which Jack Russell used Lemarchand's mourning call scrolls, is referenced, and it is clarified that these scrolls were indeed written by Philip LeMarchand, who created the Lament Configuration, the puzzle box that summons Pinhead and other Cenobites.

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Nov 06, 2007 10:12 am 
By Ocean Doot

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that the status of Barker characters like Pinhead and the Nightbreed (which appear in comics based on films) would have nothing to do with the "Barkerverse" line of comics from the '90s, which were all original characters and concepts created specifically for the comicbook page. (There were four of those, titled "Saint Sinner," "Hokum & Hex," "Ectokid" and "Hyperkind." And wow, I can't believe I remember that without having to look it up!)

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Thread 5

Subject: Bendis blows continuity...again

Jul 14, 2007 3:49 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Well, here's great fodder for fellow poster Carl Creel. Chalk up another one for Mr. Bendis.

In this week's New Avengers #32, the team returns from Japan in a Rand jet. Danny says, "Guys, uh, we can't land in New York...There's something going on with the weather...We'll have to land in Chicago." Then the plane's power cuts out and they plummet toward earth.

(Incidentally, I just read the same freakin' plot point about planes falling from the sky because technology gets cut off in this week's New Excalibur #21 by Chris Claremont. Ugh.)

The recap page identifies the cause of this mishap -- "meanwhile, in New York City, Iron Man and the Mighty Avengers are fighting a newly-powered Ultron, who has taken control of the world's weather patterns and set off an EMP attack which has cut off all types of power."

We all know that the Mighty Avengers' battle with Ultron was set up time and again by Bendis in Mighty Avengers #1-3 as THE FIRST TIME the Mighty Avengers got together. This fact is mentioned in the narrative several times and reinforced in dialog and action.

Okay, Brian...if the Mighty Avengers had never gotten together before the point at which the New Avengers plummet from the sky in A4 32, then how the heck do the Mighty ones appear together before the New Avengers' trip to Japan in the flashbacks in A4 29-30??

Argh!! Sometimes I think Bendis doesn't even read his own stories!!

My immediate reaction is to put A4 27-32 after MA 1-4 and attribute the storms in New York and the plane's power failure to causes other than Ultron. This would not negate anything actually shown or said in any story itself, just Bendis' recap narrative. This shouldn't be a problem until Bendis does the inevitable and shows Ultron fighting the Mighty Avengers on panel in the next issue of New Avengers...

Paul B.

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Jul 14, 2007 4:57 pm 
By Somebody
Director

My thoughts: 

1) Bendis has trouble comprehending "comic time". He remembers that the Mighty Avengers were founded in an issue three months ago, therefore obviously that's three months before their current fight with Ultrona. 

2) There's no way to rationalise this. This is ignore/slash/burn territory. [I presume there's no way whatever happened in New Excalibur can be extended to this. since that would be too simple].

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Jul 14, 2007 11:01 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wasn't it Albion that turn off the power in NewTM Excalibur? And I'm pretty sure it was localized to Britain... so you're probably right that that wouldn't work. Nice thought, though.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

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Jul 15, 2007 8:09 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Wasn't it Albion that turn off the power in NewTM Excalibur? And I'm pretty sure it was localized to Britain... 
<<<

That's right. It was Albion, and it looks like it was localized to the greater London area. 

In New Avengers, the jet is traveling through a storm, and the decision to land in Chicago rather than head for New York would indicate that the jet is in the Midwest. The city toward which they were plummeting may be Chicago. So it was storming in NYC as well as Chicago. This could be explained as normal severe weather and doesn't necessarily need a supernatural or technological explanation (at least at this point). And maybe the Rand jet was hit by lightning, which wiped out the onboard electronics. I'm just hoping we can settle on an explanation like this and that Bendis doesn't blow it next issue with an in-story reference.

Paul B.

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Jul 15, 2007 10:19 pm 
By Carl Creel

Thank you for the fodder Paul! I am not surprised to hear you describe this. I really dont understand how someone can be as ignorant as him. From what I hear I think his ego is as large as NYC so that could explain it. I am in agreement with Somebody on point #2, although everything Bendis writes is ignore/slash/burn as far as Im concerned. But really Paul, you should not drive yourself crazy about how to fit these stories in. Dont even recognize them as canon, period. As long as people keep buying his stuff he'll keep on doing it. I look forward to the day when he leaves Marvel and I can buy an Avengers book again. Hopefully it will be sooner rather than later. Hmm, I sense a BOYCOTT BENDIS movement brewing lol.

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Jul 15, 2007 10:30 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Carl Creel wrote:
>>>
Dont even recognize them as canon, period.
<<<

What would that accomplish? 


watching: smallville

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

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Jul 15, 2007 10:34 pm 
By Carl Creel

It would eliminate everyone here trying to figure out where his stories fall into continiuity. Just regard everything he writes as taking place in the Bendis-verse. Problem solved.

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Jul 16, 2007 5:46 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Sounds like you're missing the point of the Project. 


watching: today

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

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Jul 16, 2007 11:28 pm 
By Starman

Carl Creel wrote:
>>>
It would eliminate everyone here trying to figure out where his stories fall into continiuity. Just regard everything he writes as taking place in the Bendis-verse. Problem solved.
<<<

That would just create new problems, as the various Avengers comics pretty much have been the epi-center, or focal point, of the Marvel Universe ever since Avengers Disassembled, and the events of those comics has spun out having impacts into the other MU-titles, which would mean that other titles like for example the Spider-Man ones would also be pulled down into the "Bendis-verse" dragging with them pretty much almost every comic book in the MU. 

Or with other words, remove the Bendis authored comic book issues, and the whole Marvel Universe of the last years starts to unravel at the seams.- Stefan

"Pub, ah yes. A meeting place where people attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf

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Jul 18, 2007 11:09 am 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
I really dont understand how someone can be as ignorant as him. From what I hear I think his ego is as large as NYC so that could explain it.
<<<

Can we NOT degenerate into personal insults, please? 

-Jeph!

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Jul 20, 2007 8:37 pm 
By Carl Creel

Apologies for the insults. It just gets me a little annoyed at how this person can do whatever he wants and not be "edited". Ive been a reader of Marvel since 1983. One of the main things I enjoyed so much about the books is how they all tied in together with other books no matter if they were written 5 years ago or 15 years ago. Sure, writers made mistakes back then. These mistakes were usually corrected by readers in their letters to the individual books and were awarded no-prizes. Bendis however does not make mere "mistakes". He intentionally changes things as casually as I change my socks on a daily basis. Imagine what Jim Shooter, Tom Defalco or the other former EICs would have said to him. Sadly, it looks like Bendis will be at Marvel for a while and will continue to treat it like his own personal playpen. 

In regards to counting his stories, I see your point on how other stories that are legitimate use the avengers stories as a focal point. My only answer to that is that this forum should disregard only his stories that contradict previous continuity. I cant think of any other easy solution. I wonder what responsible, legit writers such as Dan Slott and Fabian Nicienza think of him.

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Jul 20, 2007 10:12 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Well, your point is taken that declaring stories not canon is the easiest solution, but in these parts, we'd like to think that's a last resort. As you yourself pointed out, waaaay back in the halcyon eighties, fans came to the rescue, when writers/editors made continuity flubs. That's what we're trying to do here. And if we throw up our arms, every time Marvel appears to make a mistake, well, we're doing a disservice to our predecessors. 


watching: tonight show

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

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Jul 21, 2007 12:17 am 
By Carl Creel

I do understand what this board is about and I think its a great thing to have. Keep in mind though that the flubs back in the day were by accident and not deliberate like they are today. One question, I am new to this board and havent read every post on here. What did everyone come up with as a solution to the following: 

1) High Evolutionary never being more than a hydra agent as shown in the spiderwoman origin mess that Bendis and Reed wrote 

2) Iron man apparent reboot by Warren ellis. being wounded in the middle east as opposed to southeast asia, where does jim rhodes fit in? 

3) Change in Black Panther and klaw origins, plus the radioactive man being russian as well as other numerous character questions as shown in the early issues of BP. 

4) doc samson exisiting way way before the abomination plus the abominations origin changing as show in hulk destruction. (shame on you PD)

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Jul 21, 2007 12:39 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Carl Creel wrote:
>>>
3) Change in Black Panther and klaw origins, plus the radioactive man being russian as well as other numerous character questions as shown in the early issues of BP.
<<<

Conundrum of the Week: Black Panther


Carl Creel wrote:
>>>
4) doc samson exisiting way way before the abomination plus the abominations origin changing as show in hulk destruction. (shame on you PD)
<<<

Hulk: Destruction -- Is it canon? 



These are not exhaustive, but should be enough to get you started. 


watching: some really scary people dressed like wizards

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

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Jul 21, 2007 6:13 am 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
Keep in mind though that the flubs back in the day were by accident and not deliberate like they are today.
<<<

Uh ... okay. Nobody at Marvel has ever deliberately changed the details of a past event until recently. And no recent mistakes have been accidental -- they were ALL on purpose. 


>>>
High Evolutionary never being more than a hydra agent
<<<

You're gonna have to elaborate on this one for me -- I'm not too well-versed in Spider-Woman history.


>>>
where does jim rhodes fit in?
<<<

Is there some reason why he would NOT fit in? All that was really changed was the locale of the explosion -- Iron Man's origin continued on fairly standardly from there, with Ho Yinsen and building the suit and escaping ... one would presume that the "meeting Rhodey after escaping" bit would follow right afterwards, the same as it always had. Right? 

You know, on the one hand you accuse Bendis of not doing his research -- which would imply that his mistakes are accidental -- and then you accuse him of deliberately changing things, which would imply that he knows what the original stories are in order to change them -- and therefore he's done his research. 

Which is it? 

We get it, you don't like him. I agree, he's pretty bad at keeping things straight. But I'm not liking this trend of casting aspersions about his motivations ("he's doing it on purpose!") and making snarky remarks about what messes his stories are in every single post. This message board doesn't exist for the purpose of sitting around and bashing stuff -- it exists for the purpose of trying to make every canon Marvel story fit together in an order. 

Would you like to help? 

-Jeph!

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Jul 21, 2007 5:42 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Huh -- you know, I was on kind of a high horse just now about trying to contribute, rather than gripe, when chronological problems come up -- but I haven't actually contributed. So, in that spirit, I figured I should throw in my two cents: 

>>>
My immediate reaction is to put A4 27-32 after MA 1-4 and attribute the storms in New York and the plane's power failure to causes other than Ultron. This would not negate anything actually shown or said in any story itself, just Bendis' recap narrative. This shouldn't be a problem until Bendis does the inevitable and shows Ultron fighting the Mighty Avengers on panel in the next issue of New Avengers...
<<<

That's a good solution, Paul, but the Ultron storyline in MA will be going on for three more months -- and you're right, the chances of having Bendis show it on-panel are very high. So, in that spirit, maybe we should start making contingency plans... 

I'm reminded of ASTONX3 #1, where despite major creator intent and on-panel implications that this was the ReLoad-style team's very first mission, we had to shoehorn open an extremely awkward gap and shovel fifteen to twenty other issues into it. We may have to do the same thing here. 

So -- where in MA #1-2 is there even the slightest room to create a gap between the formation of the team and Ultrona's attack -- and what would we have to ignore/reinterpret to do it? 

Also -- have the Mighty Avengers appeared anywhere else? I feel like they have, but the details are escaping me at the moment (A:Initiative #1-3, maybe?) -- and, what evidence do we have about *those* stories' chronological placements? If we can find other stories besides NA #32 that feature the Mighty Avengers as a team and would work much better before Ultrona's attack, then we've got more evidence that creating an awkward gap really *is* necessary... 

-Jeph!

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Jul 21, 2007 7:09 pm 
By Somebody
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
So -- where in MA #1-2 is there even the slightest room to create a gap between the formation of the team and Ultrona's attack -- and what would we have to ignore/reinterpret to do it?

Also -- have the Mighty Avengers appeared anywhere else? I feel like they have, but the details are escaping me at the moment (A:Initiative #1-3, maybe?) -- and, what evidence do we have about *those* stories' chronological placements? If we can find other stories besides NA #32 that feature the Mighty Avengers as a team and would work much better before Ultrona's attack, then we've got more evidence that creating an awkward gap really *is* necessary...
<<<

They've appeared in Silent War #5 - which looks very post-WWH - and in combination with the New Avengers in WWH.

In addition, Irredeemable Ant-Man #7 links heavily with Mighty Avengers #1, and Danvers says:


Carol Danvers wrote:
>>>
"I just got a high priority call from Director Stark - looks like these New New Avengers - or Mighty Avengers as my publicist calls them - are finally having a formal meeting. So, you know - duty calls."
<<<

Ant-Man then jumps in her bag, which leads directly to the "fourteen minutes" scene - where Ant-Man is revealed to be clinging to Danvers' sash for a close-up of her rear end.

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Jul 21, 2007 8:42 pm 
By Carl Creel

Ok, I'll rephrase what I am seeing with Marvel in the last few years. You have an EIC who has a policy of letting the writers do whatever they want as long as they think the story is good. This is the EIC's well established philosophy. I have no idea of the extent of Bendis' or for that matter Ellis' or Hudlin's knowledge of past Marvel events. What I have seen during my over two decades of Marvel enjoyment is that writers were responsible and respectful in their writing. They would take previous stories and characters and add or enhance them in a way that would not contradict anything previous. Yes, as I mentioned before I know mistakes did happen but these were either explained by a fan or by a writer in a future story. Ok, so now maybe the above writers did research a previous story and know the history. If they just go out and write something that totally contradicts that history then what difference does it make if they know the history or not? They still changed it! Your asking me what I accuse Bendis and the other writers of. I accuse them of sheer ignorance period. Your asking me if I want to help and the answer is yes. I am trying to open your eyes as mine have been opened. I once collected books written by Bendis, Hudlin and Ellis. I tried as you try here to figure out where they fit in. It got to a point where I asked myself why am I beating myself up with this. My easy solution was to regard as non-canon anything that violated a previous story. You mentioned Spiderwoman, if you read an old marvel universe entry on her and then read the Spiderwoman Origin miniseries youll see what I mean. One of that stories lowlights is that Bendis makes the character High Evolutionary never exist as the High Evolutionary but rather as a mere Hydra agent. The High Evolutionary is a character that is well ingrained in the history of the Marvel universe. To simply make him not exist is ignorance to the extreme. Hopefully you can see where I am going with this. 
Id like to switch over to the Iron Man reboot thing. There is no reason why the origin had to be changed from SE Asia to Afghanistan. If you want to make it so Stark didnt become Iron man during the Vietnam war then fine. Why couldnt the story be told as Stark being in SE Asia with another conflict going on there years after the Vietnam war. This is fiction after all. A good writer would find a way to make it work without radical change. 
In regard to the deliberate changes that writers did back in the day which violated continuity that you alluded to. Can you give me some examples?

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Jul 21, 2007 10:18 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Somebody, thanks for that info. Looks like we might have to "pull a Cable" and pretend that the "fourteen minutes" bit actually says ... fourteen days! Yeah!  

Carl Creel will smile at this, but I think a lot of us decided long ago that any and all temporal references ("seventeen months", "fifteen years", "fourteen minutes", etc.) given out by Bendis are to be taken with an enormous grain of salt. We've documented a great many times where, over the course of a single story, he's given contradictory information as to how many days have passed, what time it is, what month it is, etc etc. My personal solution would be to consider the "fourteen minutes" thing to be a Bendis Temporal Reference, inherently flawed if it clashes with something else, and just steamroller right over it and put a gap in MA #2. 

(Remember, that's IF we see on-panel evidence that A4 #32-36 takes place concurrently with MA #2-6. If we never see that, the proposed solution of putting A4 #27-up after MA #1-6, and blaming the plane's power loss on something else, works just fine for me.) 

Now, Carl... 


>>>
as I mentioned before I know mistakes did happen but these were either explained by a fan or by a writer in a future story.
<<<

At the time those mistakes occurred, I'm sure certain fans were annoyed -- and then a future writer explained them and made everything all better. Now, there are more mistakes, and fans like you are annoyed -- but just think, maybe a future writer will explain THEM away as well. It's a cyclical thing, I think ... writers are always massaging, reinterpreting, fixing, or outright ejecting past stories that they disagree with. Dan Slott just brought the Leader back to life with two sentences of dialogue.


>>>
If they just go out and write something that totally contradicts that history then what difference does it make if they know the history or not?
<<<

The difference is, your accusation that they didn't do their research would be false. That's what I'm objecting to -- your *assumptions* of what they do and don't know, and your subsequently insulting them based on those *assumptions*.


>>>
I accuse them of sheer ignorance period.
<<<

Okay -- but this isn't a proper forum for that.


>>>
Your asking me if I want to help and the answer is yes. I am trying to open your eyes as mine have been opened.
<<<

Well, I was asking specifically if you wanted to help us fit these stories into the greater Marvel chronology. That's generally the reason people take the time to sign up for these boards -- because they want to help organize and order the stories Marvel publishes. It sounds like you signed up just to tell us "declare them non-canon", even though doing so is pretty much the opposite of what this project is about.


>>>
One of that stories lowlights is that Bendis makes the character High Evolutionary never exist as the High Evolutionary but rather as a mere Hydra agent. The High Evolutionary is a character that is well ingrained in the history of the Marvel universe. To simply make him not exist is ignorance to the extreme. Hopefully you can see where I am going with this.
<<<

No -- I don't see where you're going with this. Are you saying that in Spider-Woman's original origin, we saw the High Evolutionary on-panel in full costume, clearly in charge and doing his usual schtick -- and then in the miniseries, we saw *the exact same scene repeated*, only he was a lowly Hydra agent, in full Hydra costume, under someone else's command?

If so, yes, there may be a problem there. But if you're saying that we saw *new scenes*, never before seen in Spider-Woman's origin, where the High Evolutionary wore a Hydra uniform and appeared to act like a flunky -- then I'd say that there's some wiggle room there. Was there something at that time *actually stopping* the High Evolutionary from changing his clothes? Did he need the armor to survive? If not, then why is it out of the realm of probability to assume that he simply donned a Hydra uniform when need be, to continue whatever work on Jessica that he was collaborating on with Hydra?

Maybe I don't understand the scope of the contradiction.


>>>
Why couldnt the story be told as Stark being in SE Asia with another conflict going on there years after the Vietnam war. This is fiction after all.
<<<

Well, see, now you're moving the goalposts of your question. You originally asked, if Iron Man's origin location was changed, then where could Rhodey fit in? I responded, with the logical answer that he'd fit in right where he always did -- and now you're changing your question to "why did they need to do it at all?"


>>>
In regard to the deliberate changes that writers did back in the day which violated continuity that you alluded to. Can you give me some examples?
<<<

Off the top of my head, Chris Claremont rewrote sections of his early Uncanny X-Men stories when they were reprinted as Classic X-Men -- occasionally going so far as to remove panels he disagreed with, and replace them with a different version of the same scene (Nightcrawler becomes invisible in shadow, as shown on-panel! No, wait, he doesn't, as shown on-panel!). 

And, more recently but still well before the Quesada/Bendis era, John Byrne's "Spider-Man: Chapter One" series gleefully and deliberately altered major elements of the early Amazing Spider-Man comics, while Marvel trumpeted it as the all-new official version of Spidey's early career -- even going so far as to have the regular comics reference the revised status quo. 

No in-continuity "fix" was ever given for either revision, and eventually later writers just plain ignored them. I suspect that's what will happen to the changes and tweaks that you have a problem with currently -- some later writers and artists will go back to a Southeast Asian backdrop when retelling Iron Man's origin, and the world will keep on spinning. 

-Jeph!

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Jul 22, 2007 1:50 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

I think people were pretty happy with how I fit Spider-Woman: Origin into history. Hell, it's even made it into the chronologies! For the details, see my analysis in the Archives, April, 2006. Basically, the Gen. Wyndham that appeared in S-W: O can't possibly be Dr. Wyndham, but he looks amazingly like Count Otto Vermis. I suggested that Count Vermis was posing as Gen. Wyndham to gain Jessica's trust... or something. It's been a while since I read these, and it's more confusing than it sounds, so go check the Archives if you're interested. 

For the Black Panther, see my analysis in the Archives, October, 2005. Basically, Klaw's origin is unchanged, he was lying to Batroc to make himself look cooler, the Radioactive Man in Black Panther 1-6 is a new Radioactive Man, and there are FlashBacks that fit into T'Challa's history, but the bulk of the story takes place in the current day. 

The link to the Archives is at the very bottom of every page in the forum. 

As for Bendis... I like his stories. I loved his run on Daredevil and I'm really digging his Avengers stuff. As for his wonky references, at least they give us something to talk about! Right? 

*** 

The problem I'm seeing with inserting a gap into MA 1-6, is that they aren't even considered the 'Mighty Avengers' until after they've defeated Ultron. The team isn't even completely formed when Ultron attacks, they're still recruiting. It would be like trying to put appearances of the Avengers on other missions in the middle of the Raft Breakout. 

The Mighty Avengers also appeared in the Fallen Son series of one-shots. And so did the New Avengers. I think we're roughly looking at something like this: 

Mighty Avengers form (MA 1-6) 
Some Fallen Son one-shots (Mighty Avengers appear, already formed) 
New Avengers discover Skrulls. (NA 27-?)(continous story, Cap's body appears before it's buried) 
More Fallen Son one-shots (Mighty Avengers appear) 
Silent War 1-6 (Mighty Avengers appear) 
World War Hulk (both Mighty & New Avengers appear) 

The current NAvengers arc is pretty heavily tied into the middle of the Fallen Son one-shots, where the MAvengers have already been together. If the MAvengers are already formed in Fallen Son, then the current NAvengers arc can't happen concurrently with the current Mighty Avengers arc. If we have to splice a gap into MA 1-6, we have to, I'm just saying I'm not too keen on the idea at the moment.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Jul 22, 2007 3:09 am 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Silent War 1-6 (Mighty Avengers appear)
World War Hulk (both Mighty & New Avengers appear) 
<<<

Those two should be the other way around, ja?

			*	*	*

Jul 22, 2007 3:12 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Ah, crap. You're right. 

I was more concerned with cleverly typing out MAvengers & NAvengers, obviously. 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Jul 22, 2007 7:58 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

In broad strokes, I have... 

MA 1-6 (w/MSM2 and IAM tie-ins) 
A4 27-32+ 
FS:DOCA 1-5 
CA5 26 
NW4 2 
A:INIT 1-3 
WWH stories 
SILWAR 4-6

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jul 22, 2007 8:35 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Carl Creel wrote:
>>>
My easy solution was to regard as non-canon anything that violated a previous story.
<<<

I just want to point out that this one sentence of yours Carl actually does pretty much sums up our policy. If a new scene contradicts an established canon comic, and if there is no way to reconcile the new scene, then we disregard the new material. The thing is that we pretty much go "above and beyond" in looking for ways to reconcile contradictory scenes. It can lead to some rather interesting debates, (the recent "X-Men: First Class" thread comes to mind). 

I invite you to stick around and see how we make some of these new scenes fit. While it's annoying to have certain writers seemingly "destroy the entire Marvel universe", it can also be pretty fun in trying to make it all fit here at the MCP. 

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Jul 27, 2007 6:37 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Has any reference been made in Mighty Avengers itself to Cap's death yet?

			*	*	*

Jul 27, 2007 6:42 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Good question. I don't think so... but I'm not sure, so don't quote me on that. 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Jul 28, 2007 8:36 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
Has any reference been made in Mighty Avengers itself to Cap's death yet?
<<<

I'm glad (well, kind of) that you brought this up, Somebody, because it's forced me to look more closely at some placements I had that were contradictory. 

There is no reference to Cap's death in MIGHTY AVENGERS. However, in CIVIL WAR: THE INITIATIVE #1, Stark thinks about a line-up for a new Avengers team. And in a flashback in that same issue, Jessica Drew exclaims that "Captain America is dead." 

So this would place Cap's death before the first issue of MIGHTY AVENGERS. 

BUT, that flashback in CW:INIT 1 is also supposed to occur "two days" before the flashback in NEW AVENGERS #28, when the Mighty Avengers set a trap for the New Avengers. This would force us to squeeze MIGHTY AVENGERS #1-6, the flashbacks therein, and the tie-ins with MS. MARVEL and IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN into that small window of time. I suppose it's possible, but the Mighty Avengers' trap at the Raft for the New Avengers would have to occur right on the heels of MA 6 (the same day). 

Of course, we always could chalk up the temporal reference to a Bendis flub. 

I notice the Calendar has CW:INIT 1 after MA 6, so I have to do more tinkering. Agh!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jul 28, 2007 8:46 pm 
By Somebody
Director

So what are you doing with the Mighty Avengers public unveiling from CW7, which is set against an Omega Flight pic which must be after OF5 (since Beta Ray, Talisman & USAgent don't join up with the group until issues 4, 2 and 2 of the series respectively), a pic of Cap in jail & a Rangers unveiling which must be before Initiative #2 (and doubly before MODOK's 11 #1, where Armadilllo's been "washed out" of the Rangers for some time). The Omega Flgiht pic there (which, of course, excludes the one member of the group that fits the attached caption), was that's what prompted me to ask... logically, everything has to reflect the status quo of when Stark does his little ending spiel, even if it's not taking place then.

			*	*	*

Jul 29, 2007 7:47 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'm treating each panel from page 23, panel 1 through page 25, panel 2 of CW 7 as a stand-alone flashback that doesn't necessarily occur at the same time as other panels or even in the same chronological sequence. 

For instance... 
CW 7-FB (24p5) -- Rogers in holding cell 
CA5 25 -- Cap killed 
CW:INIT 1-FB -- Cap's assassination noted 
CW: INIT 1 -- Stark thinks about Mighty Avengers line-up; Pointer approached to be on Omega Flight 
MA 1-6 -- Mighty Avengers form 
CW 7-FB (23p2) -- Press conference about Mighty Avengers 
OF 1-5 -- Omega Flight forms (w/Pointer and Beta Ray) 
CW 7-FB (24p2) -- Omega Flight officially appointed (Beta Ray here) 

I don't see any way around splitting these panels in CW 7 and rearranging them to make up for Bendis' chronological blunders.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jul 30, 2007 2:19 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

I'm not sure what it means, but the solicit for Mighty Avengers 6 says it has the next clue to the Skrull Invasion. It does seem as though Bendis is intending for Mighty & New Avengers to be happening concurrently, but I don't see how. 

On the other hand, it may mean nothing. But we won't know until October. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 08, 2007 11:53 pm 
By JD

In this week's NEW AVENGERS #33, the New Ultron appears on TV, and has already been defeated by the Mighty Avengers. It doubt it happens more than a few days after last issue (the NA haven't got back to NY yet). 

However, it is stated that Iron Man & Ms. Marvel's team is not yet publicly known as the "Mighty Avengers". So the ultron thing could be their "public debut" mission, with other appearances up to this point being non-official (and the recruitment flashbacks happening quite before MA 1-6's main action). Can this work ?

			*	*	*

Aug 09, 2007 5:58 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Can this work ?

Possibly...f we ignore and re-interpret a bunch of narrative and dialog in past issues of MIGHTY AVENGERS. I'll be working on this during the next week, but if others have ideas, please let us know! 

How did we know we'd get an on-panel reference to Ultron this issue? Ah, Bendis... The guy doesn't seem to know that a consistent sequence of events might make for what we call good storytelling.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Aug 09, 2007 8:55 am 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
I'm treating each panel from page 23, panel 1 through page 25, panel 2 of CW 7 as a stand-alone flashback that doesn't necessarily occur at the same time as other panels or even in the same chronological sequence.

For instance...
CW 7-FB (24p5) -- Rogers in holding cell
CA5 25 -- Cap killed
CW:INIT 1-FB -- Cap's assassination noted
CW: INIT 1 -- Stark thinks about Mighty Avengers line-up; Pointer approached to be on Omega Flight
MA 1-6 -- Mighty Avengers form
CW 7-FB (23p2) -- Press conference about Mighty Avengers
OF 1-5 -- Omega Flight forms (w/Pointer and Beta Ray)
CW 7-FB (24p2) -- Omega Flight officially appointed (Beta Ray here)

I don't see any way around splitting these panels in CW 7 and rearranging them to make up for Bendis' chronological blunders.
CW 7-FB (24p2) can't stand in light of OF5. 
<<<

[spoiler]Beta Ray ends OF5 trapped in another dimension. Granted, he SHOULD be able to teleport back, but the last shot is of him stuck there and quoting Thor while fighting a bunch'o'demons. Plus, there's apparently a MCP serial with OF coming up, probably in lead-in to an OF v2, so imagining him getting back off-panel and joining OF isn't going to work. 

There is simply no place for the panel to go. 

Oh, and there's a reference to Cap's death in OF5. Just for reference.[/spoiler] 

And my best guess on how to slash stuff away is that "FORMAL meeting" line in Ant-Man #7. Black/off the books/officially unofficial meetings could and probably will have to not count as such. And "fourteen minutes" will need to be written off as a joke, etc, etc.

			*	*	*

Aug 10, 2007 6:18 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
CW 7-FB (24p2) can't stand in light of OF5. 
<<<

I noticed that. Yet another continuity glitch that seems to be the par for the course these days at Marvel. 

My first knee-jerk theory...the Beta Ray Bill we see in CW 7-FB (24p2) is a reworked Thor clone created by Stark to fill out the Omega Flight roster! Paul B.

			*	*	*

Aug 13, 2007 6:44 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I think that appearance of Omega Flight in Civil War 7 will just have to be pushed even farther into the future. Like Somebody said, there's an Omega Flight serial planned for M/CP, and possibly a new series. Whenever that finally sees print, I'm sure we'll have a slot for that panel to go. 

As for the '14 minutes ago' thing... I think we'll have to write it off as a joke, or a Bendis Temporal ReferenceTM.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 13, 2007 8:35 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
a joke, or a Bendis Temporal Reference
<<<

Same thing.Paul B.

			*	*	*

Aug 17, 2007 4:47 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

According to the November solicits, New & Mighty Avengers have been and will continue to run concurrently. Spider-Woman shows up in Mighty Avengers 7 with what she left New Avengers 32 with, and the Symbiote Virus will be happening in both books. Also, Illuminati 5 will deal with the Skrull revelation, so after Mighty Avengers 7... probably 12, however long that arc lasts. 

Also, the solicit text says that Illuminati 5 shows the first Illuminati meeting since Planet Hulk & Civil War... but there's no mention of World War Hulk. 

Food for thought.Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 17, 2007 4:51 pm 
By Somebody
Director

You miss one point CF - Stark Tower with Watchtower's there in the MAv preview as well. Either it's pre-WWH (in which case the X-titles are getting really out of sync), or someone's going along with a big eraser over the "whole Hulk thing". 

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/nov0 ... tions.html 

That Illumanati issue should indeed "be fun" for placement if they indeed reveal one of them as a Skrull. 

I think the "Planet Hulk" thing refers to the first Illumanati one-shot, with Namor pasting IM, etc over shooting Hulk into space; rather than PH itself.

			*	*	*

Aug 17, 2007 5:48 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Right about the Planet Hulk points, and at the least it's after Civil War. 

I'd like to think that the intact Watchtower means that it is before World War Hulk... or long enough afterwwards to fix the place up. But I'm leaning towards pre-WWH. 

Any guesses as to who in the Illuminati is a Skrull? 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Aug 17, 2007 6:00 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Any guesses as to who in the Illuminati is a Skrull? 
<<<

Trying to figure out which would be least "damaging" - probably Namor (although I would say Black Bolt if not for that unresolved Silent War). 

Most damaging would be Reed. Stark would almost be a relief. 

Oh, and if they make Doctor %&*ing Strange a Skrull, with all his powers require, Bendis is even more out of his mind...

			*	*	*

Aug 18, 2007 11:16 am 

>>>
In this week's NEW AVENGERS #33, the New Ultron appears on TV, and has already been defeated by the Mighty Avengers. I doubt it happens more than a few days after last issue (the NA haven't got back to NY yet). 

However, it is stated that Iron Man & Ms. Marvel's team is not yet publicly known as the "Mighty Avengers". So the ultron thing could be their "public debut" mission, with other appearances up to this point being non-official (and the recruitment flashbacks happening quite before MA 1-6's main action). Can this work ?
<<<

Without having read the issue -- it seems to me there's a simpler solution. 

MA #1-up is supposed to be the team's first battle ever -- occurring mere minutes after the team was formed. Meaning, their appearance in A4 #27-30 should occur after the Ultron battle. 

We were all afraid that A4 #33 would give us some evidence that #32-33 were happening concurrently with MA #1-up. But it didn't. Instead, we've been given a piece of evidence that the Ultron battle occurred *prior to NA #33.* 

So -- why not jump for the solution we all want -- and place MA #1-up (until the end of the Ultron battle, whenever that will be) before all of A4 #27-33? 

Am I missing something obvious? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Aug 18, 2007 3:17 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
Am I missing something obvious? 
<<<

Just the plot and dialog in NEW AVENGERS #32-33, I'm afraid. The sequence of events firmly laid out there is: 

New Avengers plane downed near Chicago in A4 32 by the worldwide EMP wave released by Ultron in MA 4. 

New Avengers save themselves in A4 32 at the same time the battle with Ultron continues in MA. 

Mighty Avengers resolve the Ultron situation in MA 5-6 while New Avengers grounded in Chicago. 

In A4 33, New Avengers are checked into a Chicago hotel, where they see a TV news report that the Ultron situation has been resolved, that the Avengers were involved, and that they're awaiting word on who these Avengers are. 

In CW 7-FB (23p2), Stark announces the Mighty Avengers lineup in a press conference. 

The Mighty Avengers' presence in the flashbacks in A4 28-30 will have to occur between the time they're recruited in the flashbacks in MA 1-2 and the main story in MA 1-6. It's going to be much easier to ignore all the temporal references in MA 1 than it will be to explain away the references in A4 32-33. It's too bad to have to dismiss anything, but that's Bendis for you. 

The Ultron battle will have to follow closely on the heels of the Mighty Avengers' hunting the New Avengers, which in turn will have to occur closely on the heels of the recruitment of the Mighty Avengers. And all of this will need to occur during the days between Cap's death in CA5 25 and the Fallen Son stories. So, 

Cap is killed 
Civil War: Initiative #1 
Mighty Avengers recruited 
Mighty Avengers hound New Avengers 
New Avengers go to Japan 
Mighty Avengers fight Ultron as New Avengers return to US 
Fallen Son (featuring both Avengers teams)* 

*Spider-Woman appears here, though, so that whole subplot involving her will need some resolution between A4 33 and FS:DOCA 1. 

I'm working on a day-by-day review of these events, along with Ant-Man, Ms. Marvel, and other connecting stories.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Aug 26, 2007 11:57 am 
By Mikhail

Let's not forget the Mighty Avengers team was full and active in Silent War, too, against the Inhumans. At first that sounds...bad...but it almost makes sense to push Silent War back after World War Hulk due to the opening sequence of WWH, and the presence of the full original FF in #1.

			*	*	*

Aug 26, 2007 12:06 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Yep, we'd actually decided a while ago that Silent War needs to be pushed off into the future ... but not *too* far, as apparently X-Factor (and various other X-books?) is currently occurring after it. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Aug 26, 2007 12:49 pm 
By Somebody
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Yep, we'd actually decided a while ago that Silent War needs to be pushed off into the future ... but not *too* far, as apparently X-Factor (and various other X-books?) is currently occurring after it.
<<<

This is, of course, contingent on Bendis not blowing continuity to smithereenies in Illuminati #5. Basically, Black Bolt needs to not be a Skrull, and we need it to happen either before or immediately in the wake of WWH. And not refer to SW as past-tense (given that there's meant to be a third mini to tie up the SW cliffhanger, you'd hope that was a given, butt....)

			*	*	*

Sep 01, 2007 7:12 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I think I've managed to make the interplay between Mighty Avengers and New Avengers work within a timeframe involving the death of Cap and a lot of titles whose stories and characters are related. I threw in some relevant Battle Damage Reports too. As you can see, I've inserted a gap of a week or so between the recruitment of the Mighty Avengers and their first public mission to allow for the New Avengers appearance and other things. I'm not done tweaking, but I figured I'd post this... 


Saturday 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #25 (5-15p4) 
One day, after CW:FL 11 (6-12). This segment must occur after BP4 26 (7-8) and probably after BLADE8 9. The press and throngs of picketers show up at the courthouse where Steve Rogers is scheduled to be arraigned. Both Sharon and Bucky are stationed among the crowd, following orders from Fury. Cap arrives, escorted by U.S. marshals. Under orders from the Red Skull and Faustus, a sniper shoots Cap and Sharon rushes toward him. Bare trees in New York. 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #25  FB (31p1-31p2) 
The same day as CA5 25 (5-15). Sharon makes her way through the crowd to Cap. 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #25 (15p5) 
The same day as CA5 25-FB (31p1-31p2). Under Faustus' control, Sharon puts a gun to Cap's side. 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #25  FB (31p3-31p4) ~ CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #25 (15p6) 
The same day as CA5 25 (15p5). Unseen by the crowd, Sharon shoots Cap three times. 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #25 (16-32) 
The same day as CA5 25 (15p6). This segment occurs before CW:FL 11 (14-15) and CW:I 1, six days before CA5 26, within a week before FS:DOCA 2 (6-22), and weeks before CA5 28 (1-9). According to Civil War: Fallen Son Daily Bugle Special, this segment occurs a "few months" after CW 1 (29-31). It must occur before NW4 1 (4-25) and FNSM 21. Snapped back out of Faustus' control and with no knowledge of her deed, Sharon holds Cap and shouts for help. Bucky rushes to the site of the sniper, only to discover that he's gone. Falcon arrives and attacks Bucky, thinking he shot Cap. They straighten things out as Sharon reports to Fury while escorting the emergency crew that takes Cap. Fury spots the sniper fleeing in a helicopter and dispatches Bucky to pursue it. Falcon flies Bucky to the chopper and Bucky shoots it, forcing Crossbones to evacuate. Bucky fights and defeats Crossbones. Bucky flees as Cape Killers arrive to arrest Crossbones. An ambulance rushes Cap and Sharon to the hospital, where Cap is pronounced DOA. Posing as a nurse, Sin relays a message from Faustus to Sharon that causes her to remember her shooting of Cap. 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #5 
The same day as CA5 25 (16-32). Bushwacker takes a hostage in Times Square and volunteer patrolman Ian stands up to him. 
When the real police and G.W. Bridge and his men arrive on the scene, Ian refuses to stand down and Bushwacker demands to 
see the Punisher. Castle shows up and concludes that the whole set-up is a ruse by the law to lure him into the open. But when 
Bushwacker gets out of control, Bridge is forced to take him down. As Castle leaves, everyone in Times Square sees TV news 
coverage of Cap's assassination. The Helicarrier shown in this story is not the new Stark-designed one. 
[BTS] 
The same night as CA5 25 (16-32) and before CW:TC 1. SHIELD takes Caps body from the hospital. 
CIVIL WAR: THE CONFESSION #1 
It must be the same night as CA5 25 (16-32). This story must occur before A4 28-FB, CW:BDR (13), and FS:DCA 3. It must be more than just "a couple of years" after IM 150. SHIELD Director Stark boards a Helicarrier (not the one he custom designed) to see the body of Captain America. Alone with the corpse, Stark walks through the events of the Civil War and breaks down, admitting that the costs of the war weren't worth the victory. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #36 (3-10p2) 
One night, "exactly two weeks" after C&DP 36 (1-2). Wade breaks Taskmaster out of an armored prison transport in Ohio. Taskmaster agrees to fight Wade in a public forum. Leafy trees in Ohio. 

Sunday 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #26  FB (2-4) 
The day after CW:TC 1. It is five days before CA5 26. Aboard the helicarrier, Sharon Carter confronts Stark about the removal of Caps body from the hospital, and she argues with him as they stand over the corpse of Steve Rogers, which has reverted to its frail state, the effects of the super soldier serum having worn off. After this, Sharon resigns from SHIELD. 
CIVIL WAR: THE INITIATIVE #1  FB (3-10) 
One day. Reed Richards visits Michael Pointer (the Collective) in a prison cell and reviews his medical status. Then Walter Langkowski arrives and interrogates Michael about Xorn. After playing footage of Michael's slaughter of Alpha Flight, Walter offers Michael the Guardian/Vindicator suit and a place on Canada's new super team, Omega Flight, which includes Talisman, Beta Ray Bill, Arachne, Sasquatch, and U.S.Agent. 
CIVIL WAR: THE INITIATIVE #1  FB (23-30p2) 
Perhaps the same day as CW:I-FB (3-10). It is "two days" before A4 28-FB. Ms. Marvel encounters Spider-Woman fighting the 
Grey Gargoyle and takes out the villain. Carol tells Jessica that "the war is over" and that she should work with the registered 
heroes. Jessica exclaims that "Captain America is dead," but Carol tells her that he's alive and "tucked away safe on the Raft." 
Jessica refuses to join Stark and flies away. Carol lets her go. Grey Gargoyle must escape to appear in NW4 1 (1-3). Green trees in a place with palm trees. 
CIVIL WAR: THE INITIATIVE #1 
Probably the same day as CW:I-FB (23-30). This story occurs after CA5 25 (16-32) and before MA 1-FB (4-7). The splash panels on pages 11-12 must be apocryphal, as the Omega Flight team cannot be assembled yet, especially with Beta Ray Bill on the team; this story must occur before OF 1 (3-22). As Iron Man flies over Manhattan, he reviews footage of Langkowski's recruitment of Pointer. Below, the Thunderbolts (minus Songbird) battle and apprehend Hurricane II, an unregistered super-hero who's been active for "nine months, three days." The one-page portrait of the team may serve only as a symbolic splash page. Stark arrives at Avengers Tower, where Carol tells him about her encounter with Spider-Woman. Jarvis (now recovered from being shot in A4 25) greets Stark, who begins to think about a line-up for a new Avengers team. 
OMEGA FLIGHT #1  FB (1p1-1p3) 
One day. Daisy uses her super-strength to commit a crime in Nova Scotia. 
OMEGA FLIGHT #1  FB (1p4) 
One day, "a few days" before OF 1 (1-2). Slag commits a crime in Winnipeg. 
OMEGA FLIGHT #1  FB (1p5-1p6) 
One night. A bat creature and his horde of bats create havoc in Canada. 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #6  FB (8-21) 
Probably the rainy night of the day after PWJ2 6-FB (2-7). It is shortly after PWJ2 5. Aboard the Pericles III Helicarrier, Bridge 
and Sitwell track the location of Castle and Clarke and deploy a squad of cape-killers to pursue them. A chase ensues, and Castle 
and Clarke escape by driving off the Brooklyn Bridge and surfacing undetected. They go to a diner, where they see a newspaper 
report about Hate-Monger. Castle resolves to go to Mexico by stolen car to take him down. The newspaper is dated Friday, 
December 15, 2006, but this must be topical. Full moon. 
FALLEN SON: THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN AMERICA #3 
One rainy night. This story must occur after CW:TC 1 and before A4 30-FB. Clint Barton shows up at the abandoned Avengers Mansion and summons Iron Man. Stark takes him aboard the helicarrier and confirms his identity. Stark offers Clint Caps shield and the chance to be the new Captain America. Clint dons a Cap costume and accompanies Iron Man on a call to a Manhattan gas station, where Patriot and the new Hawkeye subdue Firebrand. Iron Man moves to arrest the two heroes for violation of the Registration Act, but Kate fends him off with an EMP arrow that TChalla gave her a few weeks ago. Patriot notes that Luke is playing cards, but this isnt necessarily a reference to FS:DOCA 2. As they move to escape, Patriot and Kate run into Clint dressed as Cap. They give him a lecture about how wrong it is to assume Caps identity and use his shield. When Iron Man returns, Clint lets the two Young Avengers go, hands Stark the shield, and criticizes registration. Stark warns Clint not to join Luke and Peter. Green grass and trees in New York. The newspaper date of ...sday, July 19 must be topical. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #36 (10p3-21) 
Probably the night of the day after C&DP 36 (3-10). Taskmaster must appear here before being recaptured and put in the 
Negative Zone prison as shown in CW 7-FB (24p1). It is "two weeks" before C&DP 36 (22). At a former Army training ground 
outside Provo, Utah, a group of prospective clients kidnaped and restrained by Weasel sit and watch a manacled Wade fight and 
defeat Taskmaster. All the witnesses agree that Wade is too much of a lunatic to hire and they leave. Taskmaster recovers and 
departs (and I theorize that he's recaptured right after this). Waxing crescent moon. 

Monday 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #1  FB (4-7) 
One morning. This flashback occurs after CW:I 1 and must occur more than "four hours" before MA 1. This flashback must occur after CW 7-FB (25p2) and CW 7-FB (23p3). Stark works on a new red and gold SHIELD Helicarrier and Carol Danvers notes that Stark has "super heroes working in all fifty states." Stark tells Carol that she'll be running a new Avengers team that they get to pick. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #1  FB (12-14) 
The same morning as MA 1-FB (4-7). Stark and Carol talk about forming a team, and when Spidey and Cage are mentioned, 
Stark says that they're going to have to bring them in, and whispers that if they don't, SHIELD will. 
MS. MARVEL v2 #13  FB (7p1-7p4) 
The same "morning" as MA 1-FB (12-14). Carol reacts to Stark's offer. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #1  FB (16p1) 
The same morning as MSM2 13-FB (7p1-7p4). Stark and Carol pick the Wasp. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #1  FB (18p1) 
The same morning as MA 1-FB (16p1). Stark and Carol pick Wonder Man. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #1  FB (20p1) 
The same morning as MA 1-FB (18p1). Stark picks the Sentry. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #1  FB (22p1) 
The same morning as MA 1-FB (20p1). Stark and Carol pick the Black Widow. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #1  FB (24) 
The same day as MA 1-FB (22p1). Carol suggests Ares as a team member. 
MS. MARVEL v2 #13 (6-15) 
The same day as MSM2 13-FB (7p1-7p4), and so it must be the same day as MA 1-FB (24). It is "five days" (the "week") after MSM2 13 (1-5) and "three days" before MSM2 14-FB (4), and so two days before MSM2 13-FB (17p2-17p4). MSM2 11 is referred to as having occurred "the other night." Carol meets with Sarah Day, who tells Carol she's lost sight of her goal in life. That night, Carol calls William and asks him out to dinner "Friday night." Despite her father's restraining order against Carol, Anya arrives at Carol's apartment and says she's recovering from her injuries. They talk about the incident with the Doomsday Man and Anya leaves. Carol sees Stark at Avengers Tower; it is the first time they've seen each other since Stark asked her to join the Avengers "this morning." Stark explains to Carol why he wants her to lead the new team. Carol asks for Stark's help in ensuring she can do more "to make a difference." She asks to choose SHIELD agents and registered heroes to form a strike team to make preemptive strikes against evildoers in her "off hours." 
MS. MARVEL v2 #14  FB  FB (3p2-3p3) 
One day, probably a couple of days before MSM2 14-FB (4). Julia Carpenter is sighted at her parents' place in Colorado. 
MS. MARVEL v2 #14  FB (12p6) 
The same day as MS2 14-FB-FB (3p2-3p3). Julia sees that her parents' place is deserted and assumes that the government 
removed her family. 

Tuesday, March 8 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #38  FB 
One day, "three weeks" before C&DP 38 (7-8). Agent X storms a Hydra base to retrieve an experimental morphogenic actuator, 
but he is zapped by the machine, which gives him a debilitating case of advanced degenerative arthritis. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #1  FB (25-27) 
It must be the day after MSM2 13 (6-15). This flashback must occur after MSM2 13 (6-15). Carol and Stark visit Ares at the 
construction site where he works (where we see light clothing). They ask him to become an Avenger and he accepts for money. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #2  FB (1-2) 
The same day as MA 1-FB (25-27). "66 minutes" before MA 1, Iron Man and Ms. Marvel recruit Wonder Man. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #2  FB (7-9) 
The same day as MA 2-FB (1-2). "55 minutes" before MA 1, Iron Man and Ms. Marvel recruit the Sentry. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #2  FB (16-17) 
The same day as MA 2-FB (7-9). "22 minutes" before MA 1, Iron Man and Ms. Marvel recruit the Black Widow. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #2  FB (23) 
The same day as MA 2-FB (16-17). This segment must occur before CW:BDR (34p1). "14 minutes" before MA 1, Iron Man and Ms. Marvel recruit the Wasp. This segment occurs before MSM2 13-FB (17p2-17p4) if the formation of the Mighty Avengers precedes the launch of Operation: Lightning Storm, as suggested by Stark's remark in MSM2 13 that "the Mighty Avengers come first." 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #7  FB (2-6) 
One day, probably two days after PWJ2 6-FB (8-21)  as long as it takes to drive (probably non-stop) from New York to Mexico. Frank and Stuart arrive in the Southwest. A local reporter named Tati Arocha tries to investigate the story behind the killings. 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #7  FB  FB 
The same day as PWJ2 7-FB (2-6). Stuart applies a Nazi symbol tattoo to Franks arm. 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #7  FB (7-18) 
The same day as WJ2 7-FB-FB. Frank poses as a white supremacist and insinuates himself into the Hate Mongers gang. Tati finds a slain woman and runs back to her place, where she encounters Stuart, with whom she had a relationship. Frank passes an initiation into the National Force by defeating a bull. 

Wednesday 
MS. MARVEL v2 #13  FB (17p2-17p4) 
One morning. It must be two days after MSM2 13 (6-15). This segment occurs after MA 6 if the formation of the Mighty 
Avengers precedes the launch of Operation: Lightning Storm, as suggested by Stark's remark in MSM2 13 that "the Mighty 
Avengers come first." "At nine forty-five AM," Ms. Marvel and a contingent of SHIELD operatives attack and destroy an AIM 
base in Indiana. 
MS. MARVEL v2 #13 (16-17) 
The same day as MSM2 13-FB (17p2-17p4). Stark reports to "Commander" Maria Hill the use of SHIELD agents for Ms. 
Marvel's strike force, just as Sarah Day's televised press conference about Carol's AIM raid and the launch of Operation: 
Lightning Storm hits the airwaves. 
[BTS] 
The morning just before OF 1 (1-2) and the "week" before OF 1 (3-22). Talisman arrests someone who tries to steal her 
medicine bag. 
OMEGA FLIGHT #1 (1-2) 
One day, "a few days" after OF 1-FB (1p4), and during the "week" before OF 1 (3-22). CSIS Agent Brown reports to the 
Canadian prime minister on the influx into Canada of super-villains fleeing from the Registration Act in the U.S. and that he's 
"already on" a solution. 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #8  FB 
The morning after PWJ2 7-FB (7-18). Aboard the SHIELD helicarrier, Stark fires Bridge as Sitwell and Hill look on. Bridge goes to a motel in Newark, where he offers a reward via the Internet for information leading to Castles capture. Castle returns to Clarkes hotel room, only to find him there with Tati. Frank says the National Force is going on another raid and has them help him whip up a new mask and uniform that incorporate elements of Cap's costume. That night, the three of them go into the desert, and after Frank leaves the others, Clarke and Tati are attacked by the National Force. They grab Tati and Clarke flees. In his civilian garb, Frank is confronted by Hate-Monger. 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #9  FB (4-10) 
The same day as PWJ2 8-FB. The National Force takes Frank out to their desert outpost, and the atmosphere of hate there makes him want to kill. That night, Clarke answers Bridges online reward ad and calls Bridge. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (10p2) 
One day. This segment must occur between MA 2-FB (23)-FB and A4 28-FB. Stark reports on Black Widow, who has been selected to be an Avenger and whose espionage skills will prove handy on the team.. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (13) 
One day, after CW:C 1 Stark reports on Captain America, the news of whose death is spreading. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (26p2) 
One day, after MA2-FB (23). Stark reports on Hercules and notes Ares is an Avenger. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (28p2) 
One day, probably after A:INIT 1 (9-23). Stark reports on the Initiative and the work of Gyrich, Pym, and Justice at Camp Hammond. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (29p1) 
One day. Stark reports on Iron Fist and his involvement with "Cage and his so-called Avengers.'" 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (29p2) 
One day, after CW 7-FB (25p2). Stark reports on himself. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (34p1) 
One day. This segment must occur between MA 2-FB (23)-FB and A4 28-FB. Stark reports on the full roster of Mighty Avengers and notes their "first order of business" is to capture Cage's band of "Avengers." 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (35p1) 
One day, after MA2-FB (23). Stark reports on Ms. Marvel and her roles as leader of the Mighty Avengers and instructor at Camp Hammond, but he doesn't mention Operation: Lightning Storm. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (45p2) 
One day, after MA 2-FB (23). Stark reports on Sentry. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (46p2) 
One day. Stark reports on She-Hulk, who is an instructor at Camp Hammond and a member of the SHIELD Hulkbuster unit. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (47p1) 
One day, after MA 1-FB (24). Stark reports on SHIELD and notes the new Helicarrier he designed. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (49p2) 
One day, after ASM 540. Stark reports on Spider-Man, who he notes wears a black costume and is allied with Cage and Wolverine. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (50p1) 
One day. Stark reports on Spider-Woman, who he notes is allied with Spider-Man, Wolverine, Cage, and Dr. Strange. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (52p1) 
One day. Stark reports on the Thor Clone, whose remains have been sent to Camp Hammond for salvage evaluation. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (56p1) 
One day. Stark reports on War Machine, who serves as field commander at Camp Hammond. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (56p2) 
One day, after MA 2-FB (23). Stark reports on Wasp. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (58p1) 
One day. Stark reports on Wolverine, who is not noted as being a member of Cage's rogue Avengers. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (58p2) 
One day, after MA2-FB (23). Stark reports on Wonder Man. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (60p1) 
One day, after CW 7-FB (25p1). Stark reports on Yellowjacket, who he notes is "Man of the Year" and director of the Initiative 
training program and is dating Tigra. 

Thursday 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #9  FB (11-19) 
The day after PWJ2 9-FB (4-10). Bridge flies from New York to Phoenix, then drives into Mexico to meet up with Clarke, who tells Bridge about the National Force and their plans to go out again tonight. At the National Forces outpost, Hate-Monger gives Frank an initiation assignment  kill Tati, which he does, among the Forces cheers. That night, the National Force heads out on their mission, and Castle dons his new costume and attacks the group. 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #6  FB (22p3) 
The same night as PWJ2 8-FB. Sporting his Cap-based uniform, Punisher opens fire on the Hate-Monger's men. 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #9  FB (20-21) 
The same night as PWJ2 6-FB (22p3). Punisher cuts down a bunch of National Force guys, but hes overpowered and subdued. 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #6 
The same night (dusk in the West) as PWJ2 9-FB (20-21). Stripped of his new uniform, Castle is tied to a stake and Hate-Monger tells him he's going to die. 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #7 
The same night as PWJ2 6. Hate-Monger puts Franks Cap-inspired uniform back on him and gives him a nativist, racist speech. The villain prepares to have his National Force execute Frank. 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #8 
The same night as PWJ2 7. Hate-Monger beats the staked Frank, and as hes about to shoot Castle, a follower points out that others are present. 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #9 
The same night as PWJ2 8. A sniper opens fire and several of Hate Mongers men are hit. The sniper reveals himself as Bridge, who says hes arrived to arrest Castle. 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #10 (1-19) 
The same night as PWJ2 9. Clarke sets off explosions at Hate Mongers compound, forcing the villain and his men to abandon Castle to Bridge. Bridge frees Castle and they head to the compound, where Punisher kills Hate Monger. Bridge contacts SHIELD to have them bring a squad, then he kills Hate Mongers boss. Bridge then lets Frank and Clarke go. 
MS. MARVEL v2 #14  FB (4) 
The day (dusk?) after MSM2 13-FB (17p2-17p4). It is "two days" before MSM2 14. MSM2 14-FB-FB (3p2-3p3) is noted as 
having occurred "the other day." Carol visits Stark at his office and asks him to help her find and help Julia Carpenter. Stark 
feels that Carol's guilt is making her lose focus, but he agrees to help. 

Friday 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #10 (20-22) 
The morning after PWJ2 10 (1-9). Bridge takes care of mop-up with a SHIELD squad. He gets a call; he believes its Stark offering him his job back, which he will reject. Accompanied by Frank, Clarke begins a revenge spree to kill those involved in Tatis murder, unaware of Castles involvement. 
CIVIL WAR #7  FB (23p3) 
One day, probably after PWJ2 4. Because of the timing of CW 7 (22-26), I have Texas Twister and Red Wolf here, selected for 
the Rangers, before they're seen at Camp Hammond in A:INIT 1 (9-23). Yellowjacket holds a press conference to announce the new Rangers (Armadillo, Red Wolf, Shooting Star, Night Rider, Texas Twister, and Firebird). 
CIVIL WAR #7  FB (24p1) 
One day or night. This flashback must occur after C&DP 36 (10-21). Lady Deathstrike and a recaptured Taskmaster are led into 
the Negative Zone prison. 
CIVIL WAR #7  FB (24p3-24p4) 
One day. This flashback must occur before A4 28-FB and NX 41. Spidey shows his new black costume to Cage, Dr. Strange, and Spider-Woman, his teammates in a radicalized underground movement. 
CIVIL WAR #7  FB (25p1) 
One day. A Time Magazine photographer takes a picture of "Man of the Year" Hank Pym (as Yellowjacket) shaking hands with 
the Black Panther. Pym has started a "global revolution" in either environmental protection or a war on poverty. 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN v2 #35  FB (6p1) 
One day during the "three weeks" between SENSM2 35-FB (5p5) and SENSM2 35-FB (6p3). Ethan Myers trains in the use of 
his new powers, which include the ability to scale walls. 

Saturday 
NEW AVENGERS #27  FB 
One day. It must be more than just "a month" after A4 27-FB-FB (2p3-2p4). Maya Lopez writes an e-mail to Matt Murdock that 
summarizes her life as Ronin in Tokyo. She apparently writes this as she prepares for a mission that she expects to fail, 
anticipating her death and the Hand's attempt to bring her back to life as one of their own. 
NEW AVENGERS #27 (6-16p3) 
Probably the same day as A4 27-FB. It is "three days" before A4 27 (16-23). Clint refers to this segment as having occurred this week in A4 32 (1-10). As Ronin battles some gangsters, Elektra and the Hand show up. Elektra skewers Maya and Elektra instructs the Hand to bring her back. The Hand resurrects Maya and begins to brainwash her. Full moon. 
MS. MARVEL v2 #13 (18-21) 
One night. It must be two days after MSM2 14-FB (4). Carol shows Wonder Man around the SHIELD minicarrier that Stark 
gave to Carol for Operation: Lightning Storm. She introduces Simon to Agents Locke, Baines, and Sum, who have tracked the 
whereabouts of Julia Carpenter to Brooklyn, where Anya quits her fast food job. As she leaves the restaurant, she encounters an 
angry Archne, who demands to know where her daughter is. Waning crescent moon. 
MS. MARVEL v2 #14 
The same night as MSM2 13 (18-21). It is "two days" after MSM2 14-FB (4) and "three weeks" after MSM2 14-FB-FB (1-2). 
This story must occur before OF 1 (3-22). Arachne attacks Arana. Carol and Simon arrive at the restaurant, only to find that Arana has defeated Arachne. Julia awakens aboard the minicarrier and Carol apologizes. Julia insists that Carol was responsible for taking Rachel away from her, and they both discover that Rachel is missing because Julia's parents moved away voluntarily. Simon apologizes to Julia, but Julia tells him to shut up. Arana shows up to help, despite her father's restraining order. "20 minutes later," Operation: Lightning Storm agents locate Julia's family in Ohio, and "within the hour," they arrive at the family's new home. Julia removes Rachel from the home over her father's objections. Carol, Simon, and Anya allow Julia to take Rachel. 
BTS, Stark flips when he hears of Rachel's abduction, but Julia strikes a deal to join Omega Flight in return for a full pardon and 
custody of Rachel. Under orders from Modok, AIM agents recover a hidden DNA bomb in Anderson, Indiana. Green grass and 
trees in Indiana and Ohio. Waning crescent moon. 

Sunday 
[BTS] 
One day, three days before A4 33 (3-13). The Owl gets out of jail. 
NEW AVENGERS #28  FB 
One day, "two days" after CW:I 1-FB (23-30). This flashback must occur after MA 2-FB (23), CW 7-FB (24p3-24p4), CW:C 1, CW:BDR (10p2), and CW:BDR (34p1). While picking up milk for his baby, Cage confronts a would-be convenience store robber and draws the attention of a cop and a cape-killer squad. Cage escapes and makes his way back to Dr. Strange's Sanctum Sanctorum, which the Resistance (Strange, black-costume Spidey, Iron Fist, Logan, Strange, and Jessica Jones) is using as their headquarters. No one has heard from Falcon. Spider-Woman arrives at the Sanctum and shares the news she got from Carol that Cap isn't dead and is being held at the Raft. The team suspects a trap, so Strange sends his astral form to the Raft and sees Maria Hill checking in on "Cap," strapped to a table. Strange returns and the team storms the Raft, only to discover that "Cap" is not the genuine article. They are surrounded by the Mighty Avengers (Ms. Marvel, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Sentry, Wasp, Black Widow, Ares). Green trees in New York. 
NEW AVENGERS #29  FB (4-13) 
The same day as A4 28-FB. The Mighty Avengers try to arrest the New Avengers, but Strange distracts the Mighty team with 
nightmarish visions (including a corpse-like Cap) and teleports himself and his teammates to the Sanctum Sanctorum. The 
Mighty Avengers and SHIELD (with Maria Hill) bust into the Sanctum but a cloaking spell by Strange hides the New Avengers 
from them. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (14p1) 
One day, shortly after NA 28-FB. Stark reports on Cage. 

Monday 
[BTS] 
One day. The Owl kills four SHIELD agents to steal the Luther Manning Deathlok. 
OMEGA FLIGHT #1 (3-22) 
One school day. This segment must occur after MSM2 14 and CW:INIT 1 and probably after S-H4 16. Agent Brown shows up at a school at which Walter Langkowski is speaking. Aboard a SHIELD Helicarrier, Brown asks Langkowski to head up Omega Flight. Brown notes that people in the U.S. are "warring among themselves" and that "we don't have the Avengers anymore"  these statements should not be interpreted to mean that the Civil War is still raging or that the Mighty Avengers haven't formed, since Brown notes that Stark "heads up SHIELD" and has put U.S.Agent and Arachne on the team. Walter balks when Brown shows him that Michael Pointer has been selected as well. As Sasquatch, Walter goes to recruit Talisman, who is at the Sarcee First Nations Festival. Elizabeth declines, opting to maintain her responsibilities to her tribe. Meanwhile, the Wrecking Crew crosses over into Canada. That rainy night, as Walter ponders the state of the new team, he receives a phone call about the Wrecking Crew busting up a bar and killing patrons. Sasquatch engages the Crew in battle but finds himself on the ropes. 
NEW AVENGERS #29  FB (14-21) 
The day after A4 29-FB (4-13). Jericho Drumm probably appears here after BP4 26-FB (16-18). The Mighty Avengers show up 
at Rand Corporation headquarters and demand to speak to Danny Rand "about last night." Rand denies being Iron Fist and Jeryn 
Hogath threatens a legal battle if criminal charges are filed against Danny. The Mighty Avengers leave and Dakota North arrives, 
bearing a note from Maya Lopez and a box containing the Ronin costume. She says that Matt Murdock asked her to give it to 
Danny "because he's too far away to do anything about it in time." That night, Danny takes the Ronin costume and the note to 
the New Avengers at the Sanctum and they decide to go to Japan. Outside, SHIELD and the Mighty Avengers return to with 
Brother Voodoo to ferret out the New Avengers. Full moon. 

Tuesday 
NEW AVENGERS #30  FB 
The early morning after A4 29-FB (14-21). This flashback must occur after FS:DOCA 3 and before MA 1. It is months after A4 26. Brother Voodoo fails to detect Strange or the New Avengers, so the Mighty Avengers leave. Suspecting that the New Avengers are present, Iron Man leaves them a heartfelt message to resolve their differences, but he leaves when he gets no response. Cage tells his teammates that he suspects a connection between the Civil War, the Secret War, and recent events with SHIELD and Hydra. Clint Barton shows up at the Sanctum to report back to Strange about his quest for Wanda, who he says he didnt find. The New Avengers suspect hes a government plant, so Strange conducts a spell that establishes the purity of intention of everyone present. The group asks Clint to join them on their Japan trip, and when he says hes no longer Hawkeye, they give him the Ronin costume. 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #6 (18) ~ IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #1 (1) 
One morning. The new Ant-Man saves Beth Howard from a mugger. 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #1 (2) 
The same morning as IAM 1 (1). Ant-Man talks Beth into going to dinner. 
NEW AVENGERS #27 (16p4-23) 
The same morning as A4 30-FB. It is "three days" after A4 27 (6-16). Sent by Murdock, "the new New Avengers" (Cage, Iron 
Fist, Spidey in black costume, Spider-Woman, Wolverine, Dr. Strange, and Clint as Ronin) burst into Elektra's headquarters and fight her and her Hand ninjas. They free Maya and flee. Elektra prepares to pursue them. 
NEW AVENGERS #28 
The same morning as A4 27 (16-23). It is the day after A4 28-FB. The fleeing New Avengers seek refuge at the Silver Samurai's 
fortress. There, the Samurai discovers that the injured Maya was Ronin and that someone new has adopted the mantle. Harada 
tells the group that "the word went out just two weeks ago that everyone in the Yakuza syndicates is working for" the Hand. 
Seeking to protect his home, the Samurai attacks Logan, but Cage and Ronin bring him down. Then Elektra and the Hand show 
up. Full moon. 
NEW AVENGERS #29 
The same morning (night in Japan) as A4 28. As the New Avengers face off against the Hand, Cage offers to strike a deal with Elektra. 
NEW AVENGERS #30 
The same morning (night in Japan) as A4 29. Cages attempt to bargain is revealed as a stall tactic. The battle continues, and Maya stabs Strange and the tide turns in favor of Elektra and the Hand. 
NEW AVENGERS #31 
The same morning as A4 30. Jessicas and Cages baby is bottle feeding. The battle rages. Strange sends a message to Wong and Jessica Jones at the Sanctum Sanctorum and has Wong recite an incantation that allows the sorcerer to heal and to exorcize Maya, who then skewers Electra. The Hand flee and Electra is revealed as a Skrull. 
OMEGA FLIGHT #2 
The day after OF 1 (3-22). Agent Brown reports to Talisman that Sasquatch took on the Wrecking Crew by himself and is now missing. The Crew throw Sasquatch in a hole under a secluded mountain cabin, then head to Toronto to rob the Royal Ontario Museum. In Toronto, U.S.Agent fights a muscular female perp whos defeated by Arachne. When the Crew arrives at the museum, a young man is there, having been drawn to Toronto by dreams. Brown brings Talisman to Ottawa, where they have a teleconference with Iron Man and Ms. Marvel. Stark (who is the newly appointed director of SHIELD) and Talisman argue about registration, then Arachne arrives with daughter Rachel, followed by U.S.Agent, who is introduced to Talisman as the temporary leader of Omega Flight. Following him, much to Talismans shock, is Michael Pointer, restrained and suited up as Guardian. Green grass and trees in Canada. Full moon. 
OMEGA FLIGHT #3 
The same day as OF 2. Talisman is enraged that Pointer is the new Guardian and refuses to work with him. Pointer cries. A TV report on the Wrecking Crews museum attack sends U.S.Agent and Arachne into action. The Wrecking Crew break through a wall at the museum and enter a dimensional portal, where they encounter Tanaraq, who they agreed to free. Tanaraq gives the Crew tremendous power and charges them with destroying the world alongside the Great Beasts. Simon Walters, the young man who was drawn to Toronto, enters the scene and transforms into Beta Ray Bill. He battles the Wrecking Crew and falls. 
OMEGA FLIGHT #4 
The same day as OF 3. U.S.Agent, Arachne, and Talisman battle the Great Beasts and the Wrecking Crew in Toronto. They are joined by the revived Beta Ray Bill, but a crazed Sasquatch enters the fray on the side of the Beasts. Rachel frees Pointer from captivity so he can help her mom in battle. The new Guardian arrives and Sasquatch grabs him by the neck. Facing death, Pointer refuses to kill Walter to defend himself, but Sasquatch has no such reservation. 
OMEGA FLIGHT #5 (1-18) 
The same day as OF 4. Beta Ray saves Pointer, and as Omega Flight battles the Wrecking Crew, Talisman manages to reach Walter within the possessed Sasquatch and together they trap Tanaraq inside Shamans bag. The Crew lose its power, and the Great Beasts come for the bag. Beta Ray Bill grabs the bag and leads the beasts toward the dimensional rift. Pointer goes to his aid and is forced to close the portal after Bill leads the beasts into their dimension. The Crew is defeated, and both Talisman and Sasquatch recognize Pointers valor and accept his assumption of the Guardian identity. Green trees in Toronto. 
OMEGA FLIGHT #5  FB 
The same day as OF 5 (1-18). Sasquatch and Talisman assist in cleaning up in the wake of the battle. Green trees in Toronto. 
CIVIL WAR #7  FB (24p2) 
Perhaps the same day as OF 5-FB. This flashback must occur after OF 5 and probably before CW:I 1-FB (3-10). Embers of Omega Flight are thanked. U.S.Agent and Talisman appear, but the presence of Beta Ray Bill in this panel must be incorrect. 
OMEGA FLIGHT #5 (19-22) 
Perhaps the same day as OF 5-FB. This segment must occur before CW 7-FB (24p2) and CW:INIT 1-FB (3-10). Arachne watches as Guardian trains. Talisman returns home by bus. U.S.Agent busts heads. Beta Ray Bill battles demons in the other dimension. 
DAREDEVIL v2 #93 (14-18) 
One day, probably weeks before DD2 93 (19). Matt meets with Wilson Fisk at Ryker's Island Prison. Honoring Vanessa's last 
request to him, Matt tells Fisk that he's Fisk's new lawyer and will be seeking to get the charges against Fisk dropped. Fisk is 
initially angry that Matt didn't get him out of here sooner to bury his wife, but Matt lectures Fisk and tells him it's time they 
started honoring Vanessa. 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #1 (22) 
The same evening as IAM 1 (2). Eric O'Grady, out of costume, turns up at the arranged place, announcing himself to Beth as 
Ant-Man and asking if she can keep a secret. 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #2 
The same evening as IAM 1 (22). Eric maneuvers Beth into paying a bill she can't afford for the dinner that's coming. She asks 
how he became Ant-Man, and he proceeds to tell her. After a meal and a Eric's pack of lies involving Doctor Doom, Beth invites 
Eric up for tea. Meanwhile, Mitch, face deformed, tracks Eric down with a couple of SHIELD agents, determined to kill Eric. 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #3 
The same night as IAM 2. Beth states she's not going to have sex with Eric to get him to leave. He takes note of the apartment 
number, takes a taxi to a locker and back, changes into Ant-Man, and sneaks back in under the door. As Eric spies on Beth in the 
shower, Mitch and company knock at the door and Eric recognizes the voice. 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #4 
The same night as IAM 3. It is "three months" (perhaps technically, but closer to four) after IAM 4-FB (4-12). Beth storms out, 
a towel wrapped round her, before Mitch and company break the door down. They ask her about Eric, then proceed to move her 
out of the way and scan the apartment, installing sensors discreetly in case Eric comes back. Meanwhile, an unhappy Eric hides 
under the couch. After Mitch finishes a radio call to Maria Hill, he finds a trace of Eric, and Eric grows out from under the 
couch begging Mitch to let him be and to "end this, right here, right now." 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #5 
The same night as IAM 4. This story occurs a few weeks before IAM 9 (1-9). Eric quickly changes his mind and, with the agents distracted, jumps out of the window down to a safe hiding place. A shocked Beth looks on as Mitch jumps out the window and into a flying car to go after Eric. As Mitch's device reads "signal lost," Eric's hides in the wheel arch of the car. 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #6 
The same night as IAM 5. It may be the same night as MSM2 13 (6-15). This story cannot occur "one week" after IAM 6-FB 
(17). Eric shows up after hearing Mitch confess to Maria Hill on the radio that he's lost the trail. Mitch is bitter because he's 
getting pensioned off because of his injury; with no sight or hearing on his left side, he's only good for tracking Eric down. Eric 
breaks Mitch's Pym Particle tracker and escapes. "Minutes later," Eric scopes out the women on the street for one to ride home 
with. He settles on a blonde and jumps in her bag. The bag includes a registration card showing the owner to be Ms. Marvel. 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #7 (1-2) 
The same night as IAM 6. Eric falls asleep inside Carols bag. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (36p2) 
One day, after A4 29. Stark reports on the New Avengers. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (39p1) 
One day, after OF 5 (19-22). Stark reports on Omega Flight, which to him includes Beta Ray Bill, but this may be the result of confused communication. His omission of Arachne as a member may be an oversight. 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (60p1) 
One day, after CW 7-FB (25p1). Stark reports on Yellowjacket, who he notes is "Man of the Year" and director of the Initiative 
training program and is dating Tigra. 

Wednesday 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #7 (3-11) 
The day after IAM 7 (1-2). Carol just got back (Id say from recruiting Ares) and heads out again for a formal meeting of the Mighty Avengers (which I interpret to mean the first official meeting of the new team). Eric awakens and watches Carol take a shower. Then he realizes hes on board a SHIELD minicarrier and freaks. He hops back into Carols bag as she leaves to respond to a priority call from Director Stark. The Mighty Avengers deploy from an aircraft to face their first challenge. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #1 (1-3) 
The same day as IAM 7 (3-11). Given Carol's chronology, it must be more than "four hours" after MA 1-FB (4-7). "Fourteen 
minutes" after becoming a team (perhaps fourteen minutes after calling their first official meeting), the Avengers confront a horde of Mole Man's creatures in Manhattan. 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #7 (12) 
The same day as MA 1 (1-3). Ant-Man hitches a ride aboard Carols sash, then high-tails it out of the ensuing fight scene. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #1 (8-11) 
The same day as IAM 7 (12). The Avengers battle the Mole Mans creatures, one of whom swats Wonder Man away. 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #7 (13) 
The same day as MA 1 (8-11). Wonder Man crash lands near Ant-Man, who notices that the impact destroyed a parking meter full of coins ripe for the taking. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #1 (15) 
The same rainy day as IAM 7 (13). Wonder Man rejoins his team and they continue to fight the monsters. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #1 (16/17p2-16/17p8) 
The same rainy day as MA 1 (15). The Wasp saves Ares from one of the creatures. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #1 (18/19p2-18/19p5) 
The same rainy day as MA 1 (16/17p2-16/17p8). Wonder Man saves some bystanders. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #1 (20/21p2-20/21p7) 
The same rainy day as MA 1 (18/19p-18/19p5). Sentry frees Ms. Marvel from the tentacles of one of the creatures. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #1 (22/23p2-22/23p6) 
The same day as MA 1 (20/21p2-20/21p7). Black Widow blows up several of the creatures. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #1 (28-38) 
The same rainy day as MA 1 (20/21p2-10/21p6). As the Avengers fight, Maria Hill calls Iron Man's attention to a rash of severe weather occurring around the world. Mole Man emerges and declares that he is exacting vengeance for the destruction of his underground world. Iron Man explodes and in his place stands a new female Ultron. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #2 
The same day as MA 1 (28-38). The female Ultron makes short work of the Mole Man's monsters. The Avengers attack and Ares proves himself only to eager to smite impulsively, earning a reprimand from Ms. Marvel. Unable to figure out the situation, Carol orders a strategic retreat, much to Ares' ire. The Wasp gets close to the creature and realizes it's Ultron. She asks to have Hank Pym called in to stop the creature who "killed Tony Stark" and is "destroying the world." 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #3 
The same day as MA 2. As Sentry holds Ultron at bay, Warbird withdraws the team to the Helicarrier above Manhattan, where she has SHIELD study the energy she absorbed off Ultron. Wasp summons Henry Pym, who is interrupted from an intimate scene with Tigra at Camp Hammond. Ultron takes over the Helicarriers computers and sends the vessel plummeting toward the ground. Sentry stops it from crashing and sets it down on the Long Island Expressway with the help of Sharon and Simon. Aboard, Maria Hill is knocked cold, and with Stark missing, Natasha is put in charge of SHIELD. She starts barking orders and Ares is smitten. As Mole Man mourns the loss of his creatures, Hank Pym nears the scene via helicopter. Then a robot in an original Iron Man armor, Starketech 9, flies in and starts to deliver a post-mortem message from Stark. 
NEW AVENGERS #32 (1-10p1) 
The same day as MA 3. Clint refers to Mayas resurrection in A4 27 (6-16) as having occurred this week. While en route back to the U.S. aboard a Rand jet, the New Avengers discuss the implications of the Elektra Skrull, whose corpse is aboard. Team members speculate about who else could be a Skrull and they suspect each other. Spidey suggests going to the press about the Elektra Skrull and Spider-Woman suggests taking the corpse to Iron Man to test whether hes a Skrull himself. Danny reports that theyll have to land in Chicago because theres something going on with the weather. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #4 (1-13) 
The same rainy day as A4 32 (1-10). Ares distrusts Starktech 9 and slices him open. Pym reassembles him, and the robot says that Ultron took control of Starks experimental weather-controlling satellites, about which the heroes are surprised to hear. Wonder Man and Sentry destroy the satellites. Starktech 9 says that Ultron has taken control of Starks Extremis tech and thus his biology. Ultron then causes an electromagnetic pulse that temporarily causes a worldwide power outage. The Mighty Avengers respond to aircraft falling from the sky over Manhattan. J. Jonah Jameson cameos. 
NEW AVENGERS #32 (10p2-22) 
The same day as MA 4 (1-13). The power cuts out in Dannys plane. As the plane plummets, Spider-Woman bails in midair. The plane makes an emergency landing and in the rubble, Spider-Woman zaps Logan and makes off with the Skrull corpse. Green grass and trees in the Midwest. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #4 (14-23) 
The same day as A4 32 (10-22). While the Mighty Avengers deal with the EMP catastrophe, Jarvis reports that Stark Tower is compromised. They arrive there to find that Ultron has slain Lindy Reynolds and an army of Iron Man armors attack them. Meanwhile, Ultron forces the launch of a missile from a base in Lithuania, where we see green grass and trees. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #5 
The same night as MA 4. 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #6 
The same night as MA 5. This story must occur before A:INIT 1 (4-9), SILWAR 5 (1-20), and ORDER2 1 (3-14). 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #7 (14-20) 
The same night as MA 6. In the aftermath of the Mighty Avengers battle, Ant-Man sees Black Fox looting and subdues the villain and seizes his sack of booty and his wallet. Hearing a girl trapped in nearby rubble, Ant-Man rescues her, then encounters Damage Control, including Lenny Balinger and Visioneer. 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #8 (1-3) 
The same night as IAM 2 (14-20). This segment occurs a few days before IAM 8 (4-5) and IAM 8 (6-9). Black Fox comes to and tries to claim his rucksack of stolen property, but Eric convinces Damage Control that it belongs to him and allows the villain to walk away empty-handed. Lenny offers Eric a job at Damage Control and Eric replies that hell consider it. 
NEW AVENGERS #33 (3-13) 
The same night as MA 6. Checked into a Chicago hotel room, the grounded New Avengers learn about the Ultron situation from a TV news report, which notes that the situation has been resolved and that the Avengers were the primary team on the field. We are awaiting word on who these New Avengers are... Cage thinks Spidey is a Skrull, and Logan reports that Spider-Woman left to bring the Elektra Skrull to Stark. Logan notes that weve been going two days without any sleep or food. In Hells Kitchen, the Owl tries to auction off the Luther Manning Deathlok to Crimson Cowl, Jonas Harrow, Wizard, and Madame Masque, but the Hood shows up and shoots Owl several times. He explains to the group that Owl didnt have permission to steal Deathlok from SHIELD. 
CIVIL WAR #7  FB (23p2) 
Probably the same night as A4 33 (3-13). This flashback must occur before SILWAR 4. A press conference announces the new Avengers line-up (Black Widow, Wonder Man, Sentry, Iron Man, Wasp, and Ms. Marvel). 

Thursday 
CIVIL WAR #7 (22p4-26p2) 
One early morning, "two weeks" after CW 7-FB (23p1). This segment must occur before FS:DOCA 5 (1-4). At the Baxter Building, Reed Richards writes a note to his wife about developments since the end of the Civil War. After Reed checks on his sleeping children, Sue returns to her family. 
NEW AVENGERS #33 (14-22) 
The rainy night of the day after A4 33 (3-13). The New Avengers return to the Sanctum Sanctorum. Cage introduces Maya Lopez to Jessica Jones. Maya tells Clint he can keep the Ronin outfit. Wong offers to prepare dinner for everyone. Suspicions remain even though Strange detects that no one present is a Skrull. Cage proposes the group spend a day to clear their heads and meet back at the Sanctum for dinner tomorrow night. The group departs, leaving Cage and Jessica, who wants to know what happened. She claims shes been in the Sanctum waiting for him for the last four days, but that may be a slight exaggeration. The paranoid Cage suspects shes a Skrull. Logan goes to a bar, where he stumbles across the Hood in a back room. 
NEW AVENGERS #34 
The same night as A4 33 (4-22). This story must occur before FS:DOCA 1 (1-19), CA5 26, and NW3 2 (1-9). 

Friday 
CIVIL WAR #7 (26p3-28) 
Perhaps the day after CW 7 (22-26). Miriam Sharpe visits Stark, the new Director of SHIELD, aboard a Helicarrier. As Maria 
Hill looks on, Stark tells Sharpe about the Negative Zone prison, his goal to clean up SHIELD, and the news about Colorado 
requesting the Thunderbolts to be its official team. 
FALLEN SON: THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN AMERICA #1 (1-19) 
One night. This segment must occur after A4 34. Bucky probably appears here after W:O 15 (21-22). Logan believes Cap's death was a SHIELD deception. At the old barbershop front for SHIELD, he asks Winter Soldier to join him in raiding the SHIELD Helicarrier to identify Cap's body, but Bucky declines. Next, he enlists the aid of Daredevil (Matt Murdock), and the two steal aboard the Helicarrier, cloaked by an enchantment from Dr. Strange. They take a detour to Crossbones' cell, where Logan interrogates the villain about the assassination, but Daredevil stops Logan's abusive interrogation when he detects Crossbones knows nothing. Logan tells Daredevil to leave before the enchantment wears off. Full moon. The newspaper date of ...sday, July 19 must be topical. 
FALLEN SON: THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN AMERICA #2 (1-5) 
The same night as FS:DOCA 1 (1-19). Iron Man contacts the Mighty Avengers, who are heading to the Maine coast to stop Tiger Shark, who threatens to summon sea monsters with the Horn of Gabriel. Stark notes that Logan popped up on the helicarriers sensors a few seconds ago and suspects Strange is behind it. The Thing shows up at the Sanctum Sanctorum, where Strange is unconscious, his astral self elsewhere. Wong and the New Avengers greet Ben. The newspaper date of ...sday, July 19 must be topical. 
FALLEN SON: THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN AMERICA #1 (20-22) 
The same night as FS:DOCA 2 (1-5). Logan confirms the identity of Cap's corpse, dressed in military garb in a 
flag-draped casket, elsewhere on board. The enchantment wears off and Iron Man confronts Logan. He notes, "Doctor Strange 
is going to have to learn that I'm getting tired of this little trick." Yellowjacket shows up and tries to prevent Logan from 
leaving, but Stark allows Logan to leave to tell others that Cap is indeed dead. Logan tells Stark that he'll kill him if he finds out 
he had anything to do with Cap's death. 
FALLEN SON: THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN AMERICA #2 (6-22) 
The same night as FS:DOCA 1 (20-22). This segment may occur before CA5 26. The Thing plays poker with the New Avengers. Danny notes that its been a hard week, an indication that CA5 25 (16-32) occurred within the past week. Logan returns from the helicarrier and confirms that he saw Steves dead body. He gets into a fight with Spidey. The Mighty Avengers battle the sea monsters and defeat Tiger Shark. Namor shows up and admonishes the Mighty Avengers and threatens to retaliate if the missiles housed nearby are pointed at Atlantis. He takes Tiger Shark into custody and leaves with the horn and the monsters. Full moon. 
FALLEN SON: THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN AMERICA #4 
The same rainy night as FS:DOCA 2 (6-22). Rhino must appear here after PWJ2 4 and probably before NW4 2-FB (3p1). Spidey visits the graves of his parents and Uncle Ben to mourn the loss of Cap. There, he encounters the Rhino, who is visiting his mothers grave. They fight, and Spidey subdues the villain. Logan shows up, after having argued with Spidey a few hours ago. Spidey leaves him and heads to the bridge where Gwen died. Logan follows, and the two talk about death. Green grass in New York. 

Saturday 
FALLEN SON: THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN AMERICA #5 (1-4p5) 
One day, perhaps after FF 544 (8-9). At Caps funeral, pall bearers Thing, Rick Jones, TChalla, Stark, Falcon, and Ms. Marvel carry the casket and Stark takes the podium to give a eulogy. Stark is at a loss for words. According to CW:BDR, Falcon had to register with the government to attend, and according to CA5 26, he makes a speech. According to the Civil War: Fallen Son Daily Bugle Special, this funeral occurs on a "Saturday." Green grass and trees and rain in Washington, DC. 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #26  FB (22p3-22p4) 
The same day as as FSDCA 5 (1-4). Stark says, it wasnt...it wasnt supposed to be like this... 
FALLEN SON: THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN AMERICA #5 (4p6-4p7) 
The same rainy day as CA5 26-FB (22p3-22p4). Stark says, it...wasnt supposed to be this way... and freezes. 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #26  FB (22p6) 
The same day as FS:DOCA 5 (4p6-4p7). Stark stands at the podium. 
FALLEN SON: THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN AMERICA #5 (5-17) 
The same rainy day as CA5 26-FB (22p6). It is three days before FSDOCA 5 (18-23). Reed and Sue must be here after CW 7 (22-26). Stark walks away from the podium and Sam Wilson takes the stand and delivers an inspiring eulogy. Among those at the funeral are the Young Avengers, the Fantastic Four, Storm, TChalla, Rick Jones, Dum Dum Dugan, the V-Battalion, Spitfire, Union Jack, Isaiah Bradley, Ms. Marvel, Yellowjacket, Wasp, She-Hulk, Sharon, and Jarvis. The New Avengers watch live TV coverage of the funeral. 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #11 (15p3) 
The same afternoon as FS:DOCA 5 (5-17). It is six days (nine days) after CA5 25 (16-32), according to CA5 26. Funeral attendants stand over Caps casket, which is now in the grave. 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #26 
The same night as CA5 26-FB (22p6). It is five days (thirteen days) after CA5 26-FB (2-4), six days (fourteen days) after CA5 25 (16-32), and a year after CA5 14. This story must occur after A4 34 and may occur after FS:DOCA 2 (6-22). On the way to Caps wake (following the funeral), Sharon Carter talks to Val de la Fontane about her argument with Stark. At the wake, Sharon sees Sam Wilson, Dum Dum Dugan, the Thing, Rick Jones, Carol Danvers, and Simon Williams. Sharon retreats to the ladies room and cries. Falcon leaves the wake and flies over a candlelight vigil in Central Park. Red Skull and Sin view the TV coverage of the vigil, then the Skull has an argument of egos with Faustus and Arnim Zola shows them his progress on studying Dooms time travel technology. The Skull tells Faustus hes like him to join a meeting with the Secretary of the Treasury that Lukins having this afternoon (it must be tomorrow afternoon). Falcon goes to an undisclosed location to attend a secret wake with the New Avengers  Cage, Iron Fist, black-costume Spidey, Spider-Woman, Ronin (Barton), Patriot, Hawkeye II, Night Nurse, and Jessica Jones and her nursing baby. Then Falcon meets up with the Winter Soldier in a bar, where Bucky busts heads over a disparaging remark a patron makes about Cap. Bucky sees a TV recording of Stark giving his speech at Caps funeral and thinks that he must kill Stark. Green trees in New York. 

Sunday 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #8 (4-5) 
One day, a few days after IAM 8 (1-3). Eric sells the Black Foxs stolen gems to a crooked pawn shop owner for $10,000 and gets a fake ID from him. 
NEW WARRIORS v4 #2  FB (3p1) 
One day during the month before NW4 2. Rhino probably appears here between FS:DOCA 4 and C&DP 36-FB. The cops find the Rhino webbed to a wall, courtesy of one of the new New Warriors 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #17  FB 
One night. This flashback must occur after ASM 540. The police find the wanted Peter Parker and Peter flees, stripping off his 
shirt to reveal the black Spidey costume. 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #17 (1-10) 
The same night as FNSM 17-FB. A police helicopter chases Spidey, and when it gets too close to a news copter, Spidey saves 
both helicopters from crashing before getting away. Sandman breaks into Riker's Island prison to free his father, who he feels 
was framed for murder. The prison guards rout Sandman, who gets flushed into the harbor. 

Monday 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #8 (6-9) 
The day after IAM 8 (4-5). This segment occurs a few days after IAM 8 (1-3), two weeks before IAM 8 (10-20), and a few weeks before IAM 9 (1-9). Using his new identity as Derek Sullivan, Eric goes to Damage Control headquarters and gets a job from Marie-Anne Hoag as a member of a search-and-rescue team. He looks up Visioneer and takes her out for coffee, introducing his hero identity as Slaying Mantis. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #36  FB 
One day, probably after Rhino's arrest following NW4 2-FB (3p1). Rhino escapes a prison transport train in Georgia. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #36 (22) 
The same day as C&DP 36-FB. It is "two weeks" after C&DP 36 (10-21). At his Manhattan apartment, Wade watches a TV 
news report on Rhino's escape. Seeing that a reward is offered for Rhino's capture, Wade decides to be a super-hero. 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #17 (11-21) 
The day after FNSM 17 (1-10). It must be more than just "a few weeks" after FNSM 19-FB (17p3-17p7). On a school day, 
Flash Thompson reports to work and finds "Ben Reilly" sleeping in his office. Flash forces Peter into revealing his true identity 
and Flash gives Peter the keys to his apartment so he can crash there. Flash then calls someone to share some information that 
"is gonna pay off pretty big." At Flash's place, Peter laments his current fate. Sandman shows up to ask Peter to help him prove 
that his father is not a killer. Sandman recognizes Ben Parker from a photo of Peter's as the man who is supposed to have been 
his father's victim. 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #18 
The same day as FNSM 17 (11-21). It is "some months" after FNSM 18-FB (1p1-1p3). Using his image inducer to appear as 
SHIELD agent Jamie Madrox, Peter goes to the police station with the Sandman, who poses as "Agent Sands." They inquire 
about the murder of Ben Parker, and when Detective Collins tells the pair about Floyd Baker's forced confession, Sandman loses 
his cool and blows his cover. Peter's image inducer loses its charge and he stands revealed as Spider-Man (in black costume). 
Cops burst in to help Collins, and Spidey and Sandman flee. Spidey and Sandman have an argument, then they decide to go to 
the real Ben Parker's grave. Flash and Betty have dinner at a restaurant, and when Betty goes to the restroom, Arrow secretly 
sicks thousands of spiders on her and frames her as a druggie when she gets hysterical. At Ben Parker's grave, Spidey and 
Sandman discover the singe marks from the immolation of Spider-Man 2211 (which means that Peter has not visited his uncle's 
grave in all those "months" since, so it's unlikely that the anniversary of Ben's death has occurred between now and then). They 
find the kid, Dennis, who swiped Spider-Man 2211's helmet, and he tells them that he witnessed the hero's murder. Spidey dons 
the helmet and it shows him a recording of Ben Parker's crime. Spidey discovers that the helmet can lead him to Ben. Green 
grass and trees in New York. 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #19 
The same night as FNSM 18. Hearing that Spidey and Sandman have teamed up to break Floyd Baker out of jail, Baker's 
execution has been moved up to "midnight tonight." While riding in Flash's car from the restaurant, Betty spies Arrow and the 
distraction causes an accident with a police car. Betty starts ranting about Arrow, who no one else sees. The police arrest her 
and Flash. Following the helmet's signal, Dennis drives Spidey and Sandman to Midtown High (PS 108), where they encounter 
the Chameleon of 2211. This Chameleon confesses to killing the principal and reveals himself as a shapeshifting creature. 
Spidey and Sandman fight him, then Dennis rushes in with the discarded helmet of Spider-Man 2211. Spidey puts it on the 
creature's head and tells it to administer "poetic justice"  instantly, the Chameleon switches places with Floyd Baker just as the 
electric chair switch is flipped. Chameleon fries and Floyd appears safe at PS 108, where Arrow observes the events from a 
hidden place. 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #37  FB (3p4) 
One night. Deadpool is drugged by a woman in a bar. 

Tuesday 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #37 (1-18) 
The day after C&DP 37-FB (3p4). Deadpool awakens to discover that he's been shrunk to a height of three inches by Pym 
particles at the request of the vengeful Rhino in retaliation for the time Wade shrunk him. Rhino puts Wade on a key chain and 
takes him to the super-villain watering hole, the Three Strikes Bar, where Infinity TAP, Slough, and Foot of Doom play with 
him. Wade defeats the villains and makes peace with the Rhino. 
FALLEN SON: THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN AMERICA #5 (18-23) 
One day, three days after FS:DOCA 5 (5-17). This segment must occur before SUBM2 1-FB. Iron Man, Yellowjacket, and the Wasp delivers Caps real corpse to the arctic, where they meet up with Namor, who notes the current tensions between Atlantis and the surface world. They drop Caps casket into the ocean. 

Right after this, T'Challa and Storm join the FF and the Ms. Marvel arc that starts with MM2 15 begins. 

Questions? Problems? Let me know!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Sep 01, 2007 7:18 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Why take Fallen Son out of sequence? [Which you've made more obvious, of course, by assigning numbers not on the covers or solicits]

			*	*	*

Sep 04, 2007 6:12 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Why take Fallen Son out of sequence?
<<<

Good question. My original placement was based on the old assumption about Mighty Avengers and the infamous "14 minutes." Now that we've separated the formation of the Mighty Avengers from their first public adventure, can we place all of Fallen Son, in sequence, after the Mighty Avengers' formation and before their hounding of the New Avengers?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Sep 11, 2007 3:05 pm 
By cweed4

Here is an apparent acknowledgement by Bendis on a Newsarama interview that Mighty Avengers has a timig glitch- 

>>>
NRAMA: Speaking of the build-up and the chronologywhere do these things fit? That seems to be the downside of the frenzied pace of all these things being thrown at the heroes  they need to synch up just right, or you can really have it fall apart

BB: [laughs] The only one tiny conceivable error  early in Mighty Avengers when there was a time given for when the events were happening. Thing isTonys armorwere just not sure what time zone hes in. He clearly could have been seven hours off. Thats where people could be winning No Prizes. 

Oh, and by the way, when Stan Lee gave out the No Prize, it was a much more cordial thing than whats going on now. Now, its I found your mistake, wheres my No Prize, bitch? No  thats not how it works. You have to be much more civil to get one of those. 

But back to Tony  he could be on Latverian timebut other than that, it all clicks in pretty easily.

Its like no one blinks at Sentry having the power of 1,000 exploding suns, but the if the Avengers have a busy afternoon, thats very upsetting. [laughs]
<<<

			*	*	*

Sep 11, 2007 8:07 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

cweed4 wrote: 
>>>
Here is an apparent acknowledgement by Bendis on a Newsarama interview that Mighty Avengers has a timig glitch
<<<

That's not much of an acknowledgment.Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 02, 2007 7:14 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Right, Illumanati preview's out, and contains references to that Mighty Avengers #7 preview that came out with the solicit for that issue, the Sub-Mariner miniseries, and apparently World War Hulk. [Oh, and it's the first time Dr Strange has seen Xavier since HoM.] 

I say apparently because there's a possible degree of wiggle room there - while I'm pretty sure it means WWH, it just says "After the Hulk". 

Oh, and based on the fact that it's post- the Sub-Mariner mini, Namor would be by far the least damaging "He's a Skrull".

			*	*	*

Nov 02, 2007 9:38 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

The solicit says it's the first time they've been together since Planet Hulk and Civil War, so I'm inclined to think this is pre-WWH.(and the 'after the Hulk' line would be 'after we shot the Hulk into space') 

Also, New Avengers & Mighty Avengers are running roughly concurrently, and since the Mighty Avengers have to form pre-WWH, and the New Avengers find the Elektra Skrull while the Mighty Avengers are forming,(roughly) I think WWH will fall in line with the Avengers books after the Venom virus plot is wrapped up. So yeah, I'm wiggling that room all over the place.  

And you're probably right about Namor. Sadly.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 02, 2007 10:22 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Actually, just thinking (ALERT! ALERT! ), and if: 
1) one of them is "outed" as a Skrull, as promised; and 
2) they don't retrieve the real version post-haste (and it would seem to undercut Secret Invasion if they could...) 

then this CAN'T be pre-WWH. Because all of them have appearances in the WWH timeframe (even Namor, who appears in Incredible Hulk #107 to tell Amadeus Cho to sod off, and gets told to sod off himself in return by Namora). 

All things considered, I *really* don't want to see another Nick Fury scenario...

			*	*	*

Nov 03, 2007 6:57 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Another concern, aside from how quickly the real deal returns, is how long they say the Illuminati member was impersonated -- hopefully for a very short time. 

There's still hope for a logical chronology here, such as: 
MIGHTY AVENGERS/NEW AVENGERS 
FALLEN SON 
NEW WARRIORS #2 
ILLUMINATI #5 
WORLD WAR HULK 
NAMOR 

Another "wait and see..."

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 03, 2007 5:26 pm 
By Somebody
Director

If by NAMOR you mean SUB-M3. no chance. The Illumanati #5 preview there already directly references the events of the mini, so the order MUST go 

SUB-M3 #1-6 
NA:I #5 

Unless Avengers Tower is completely reconstructed, indistinguishably from before, then New Warriors #2 must be pre-WWH (since NW4 #3 has a very clear message being sent on the tower). 

And the hints being given would seem to go against it having been a brief impersonation, but "wait and see..." indeed.

			*	*	*

Nov 03, 2007 9:17 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Unless Avengers Tower is completely reconstructed, indistinguishably from before, 
<<<

That's been the assumption, reinforced by the restored Stark Tower's appearance with Watchtower spires in ASM 544 and IM4 23, both post-WWH.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 03, 2007 11:47 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

We could get lucky, in that the Skrull could be revealed to the audience, and not the characters... I guess we'll find out on Wednesday.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 06, 2007 1:58 pm 

By Somebody
Director

Oh god.... 

>>>
http://comicnewsi.com/reviews.php?catid ... emid=10654
The Skrulls show up in a HUGE way in this issue. In fact  although Im not going to spell it out (because that could spoil it)  Bendis has really stuck to his word when giving teasers about what was coming with the Skrull Secret Invasion. True to his word, one of the Illuminati is a Skrull. You can figure it out if you go back and pay close attention to New Avengers: Illuminati #1. As soon as I saw Bendis quoted as saying that, I went back and tried it. Its pretty easy. When the Illuminati are all aboard the Skrull ship, just carefully go thru scene by scene and see if anything doesnt add up. Remember, it wouldnt take much for a shape shifter to replace an Illuminati member. One of their appearances doesnt add up. Thats the Skrull. Really, its just that easy. Ive known the Skrull all along and now this issue confirms it.
<<<

			*	*	*

Nov 06, 2007 3:07 pm 
By JD

Seriously ? Decades of appearances written of to a Skrull ? Er... 

So, this would be [spoiler]Black Bolt, who shows up from nowhere without being rescued on panel, and never actually uses his powers ?[/spoiler]

			*	*	*

Nov 06, 2007 11:45 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

They didn't make a secret of that possibility, though. I should be surprised that it's going to be that drastic, but for some reason, I'm not. 

I wonder how they'll explain... nah. I'll just wait.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 07, 2007 2:02 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Haven't seen the issue yet, but I've read spoilers which appear to be consistent. Limiting it to the ID until I see the issue for myself though....

Yup, it's Black Bolt. Which, of course, guts Silent War if the sequel gets a go-ahead, but is still an order of magnitude less destructive than if it had been - say - Dr Strange.

EDIT: Link with synopsis & spoiler pics: http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/ ... 155086.cfm

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Subject: Rapprochement Day in FF #551

Nov 08, 2007 11:34 am 
By DonCampbell

The most recent issue of FANTASTIC FOUR (#551) refers to the time that Doom was nice to Reed for an hour on Doom's mother's birthday as part of Rapprochement Day (as depicted in the 2006 FANTASTIC FOUR SPECIAL). As I recall, at the time the circumstances of the special didn't fit with the status quo in FANTASTIC FOUR and the speculation was that it had to take place sometime in the future. Since I don't recall seeing anything more about it, I'm just wondering if I missed something. Did anybody ever determined exactly when the events of the special took place? Specifically, between which issues of FF does it fit best? 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Nov 08, 2007 11:47 am 
By Somebody
Director

Between FF 537 & 538. The spot was pre-planned, it was just published "early", like the ASM: Swing Shift FCBD issue... 

[Apparently, if the word "timeless" is used in a solicit or similar by Marvel, it means "near-future, between two scheduled but unpublished issues..."]

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Subject: 1958 Annotation for Scarlet Witch/Quicksilver/Werewolf

Nov 07, 2007 6:04 pm 
By wolframbane

Would anyone be aware of any issues or OHOTMUs the explicitly state the year the Wanda and Pietro were born, or when Gregor Russoff summoned Chthon, only to be fought off by the New Men. In the OHOTMU:GA entry for Whizzer, it gives the year of Miss America's death as 1958 (indirectly tied to these events), and the OHOTMU:A entry for Scarlet Witch indicates the High Evolutionary placed the infants Wanda and Pietro in stasis for 'decades' before giving them to the Maximoffs. Are there any other issues that cite the year more directly?

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Nov 08, 2007 1:46 am 
By DonCampbell

The idea that Gregor Russoff's death and the birth of Wanda and Pietro took place in 1958 is something that the post-Gruenwald staff of the Official Handbook made "factual." I believe that it is based on some chronology somewhere that has some related event occurring in 1958 so the staff decided to put everything in that year because it was convenient. 

The first Werewolf By Night stories simply stated that Jack Russell's father (Baron Gregory Russoff) activated the until-then-dormant curse sometime before Jack was born. Since Jack turned 18 in "1972," that would mean that his father was a werewolf by 1954 at the latest. Also, the very first WBN story established that Gregory died when Jack was less than two years old when his werewolf self was shot by villagers. 

The idea that Jack's father had been a werewolf as early as 1932 and was killed by Chthon on the same night that Wanda and Pietro were born comes from the history of the High Evolutionary that Mark Gruenwald wrote for the 1988 Evolutionary War annuals. However, there were certain obvious problems with these later stories and eventually the Handbook staff (with Tom Brevoort's blessing) "revealed" that there had actually been TWO different Baron Russoffs in the 20th Century who had been werewolves. One was Gregory (Jack's father) who was killed by a mob of villagers, and the other was the similarly-named Gregor (Gregory's father or grandfather) who was killed by Chthon. 

Anyway, the 1958 date has so far only appeared in the more recent OHOTMU editions and not in any story...yet. 

DonCampbell

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Nov 08, 2007 3:15 am 
By Enda80

Ronald Byrd extrapolated off of that Classic X-Men story with Anya (first child of Magneto) dying to get to 1958.

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Nov 09, 2007 12:00 am 
By wolframbane

Where did ROnald Byrd mention this? One of the OHOTMUs?

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Nov 09, 2007 4:35 am 
By Enda80

[url]groups.yahoo.com/group/mastersofobscurity[/url] shows his reasoning. see also [url]marvunapp.com[/url]

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Thread 8

Subject: Ah.... this could be fun... [MODOK's 11 SPOILERS]

Sep 07, 2007 5:21 am 
By Somebody
Director

Okay, this is something I need to check... 

In the Knauf's Iron Man run, the original Mandarin's back, hinting at a nasty fate for his son and with his original rings back (burned into his back), as of IM4 #15-18, correct? 

Because Temujin (the Grell-created Mandarin II, the original's son) is in MODOK's 11 #3 - a mini explicitly set post-WWH - perfectly fine (which is okay)... and with "[his] father's" rings, using the "black light" ring to trap Spot in... I suppose it's meant to be the Darkforce Dimension. 

And it's that latter point I want to check - does his dad have his original rings back, as I thought? If he does, umm....

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Nov 08, 2007 2:27 pm 
By Somebody
Director

This was fun  

Still, even presuming Nightshade left the five rings she took behind... is there any way to fit this in without taking the WWH issues of Iron Man out-of-sequence? Mandarin (I) has the rings embedded in his back and has done since IM4 16 or so...

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Nov 08, 2007 3:44 pm 
By Mikhail

Well, look at it from a different angle. At the end of the Ms. Marvel AIM arc, MODOK is "dead" and Monica Rappaccini ruled AIM. At the end of MODOK's 11, Monica is "dead" and MODOK rules AIM! 

I think it works best with Ms. Marvel first, then MODOK's 11, so where do current Ms. M arcs fall in the pre- or post-WWH timeline?

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Nov 08, 2007 6:33 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Is there a duplicate set of rings? Kind of like there's a duplicate Ebony Blade? 

I have no idea, myself. And even that wouldn't explain Temujin's 'nasty fate' pre-WWH and him being around just fine post-WWH. Unless the Mandarin was just talking smack about his kid...

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

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Nov 08, 2007 8:38 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I just looked over Iron Man v3 #9-10 & #53 and v4 #16-17 & #23. 

Basically, the only possible explanation is that it's a duplicate set of rings, albeit a fully-functional set (since he uses the functions of the electro- and mind-control rings on Paragon in IM4 23), because there's a "Five Months Ago" on the waking-up-Mandarin and burning-the-rings-into-his-spine scenes. And there's an art glitch to support that - since the rings offered to the Mandarin in IM4 16 are a set of thin gold bands which glow another colour in use, unlike the chunky, bejewelled "classic" rings Temugin has, along with his dad's hands (and, technically, it's the jewels rather than the rings that are important). 

Rings as offered to Temugin: 
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s160/antmanvillains/MandarinRingsOldStyle.jpg

Rings as reoffered to Mandarin: 
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s160/antmanvillains/MandarinRingsNewStyle.jpg

Proof as to whose hands they were : 
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s160/antmanvillains/MandarinNoHandsAgain.jpg

Mandy's speech about Temugin can be seen here, pages 1 & 2 of the IM4 17 preview, as the first ring is burned into his spine: http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/ ... i?id=10404 

OTOH, it's no more bizarre than the discontinuity between the Busiek & Grell runs... 

Anyway, that leaves things as: 
*Mandarin, post-Hands of the Mandarin "came back to himself". He recovered his old rings, but yet decided to build a Giant Mechanical Dragon and make some "command rings" to control that and other tech. 
*After escaping the crashing Giant Mechanical Dragon he... put on his old rings, and got someone to cut off his hands, directing them to be sent to his son, then went into hibernation as "Master Khan" in "An Hu Po State Psychiatric Facility in Nei Monggol [sic?] Province China" 
*Temugin, a monk, was given the rings and talked into fighting Iron Man and, eventually, embracing the rings/taking his father's place 
*Shortly before Civil War, a group of people somehow made or found rings matching the functions of the Mandarin's traditional rings, and went and woke him up, with Mandy killing most of them and taking control of the rest. The new rings were burned into his back. 
*Temugin got hold of more Makusian tech, built his own Giant Mechanical Dragon  [with more a lot more wing than his father's more snake-like version], either got hold of what he thought was his father's body and cremated it or got hold of what he thought were his father's ashes, and became involved in the events of MODOK's 11, now calling himself the Mandarin as well. 

Not that that's convoluted or anything .

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Nov 09, 2007 3:58 pm 
By meta

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
got hold of what he thought was his father's body and cremated it or got hold of what he thought were his father's ashes.
<<<

<<<

Well that part can be answered fairly easilly. He had the ring delivered to him on his fathers hands, so he had the hands cremated and kept the ashes of the hands. Not the most normal of things to do, but they're not the most normal of families either.

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Thread 9

Subject: Mystery Heroine in ROM #65

Of all places, Fred Hembeck's blog (November 9, 2007 entry) brings up an interesting "identify the character" problem. There's a mystery woman in ROM #65 who appears alongside the many heroes, but is not dressed in costume. Back in '85, I presumed it was Shadowcat, simply because she was shown with the X-Men. The MCP seems to agree, because it lists her as there and I don't see anyone else in the issue that looks like her. But it's possible I submitted that entry. (I don't remember any more.) But I don't know why she wouldn't be in costume. 

Fred Hembeck has readers proposing it's Candy Southern or a miscolored Cloud. I'm not that familiar with the Defenders, but looking at the MCP and comparing their chronologies with other Defenders, both seem plausible. Anyone else want to hazard a different guess or give reasons to support one of the above? Oh, and Fred is right that it's not Brandy Clark or any other Rom supporting cast member. They appear separately.

Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Nov 10, 2007 12:00 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

The Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 2 #4 confirmed that Kitty was present on panel in ROM 65 and was BTS in ROM 66.

Paul B.

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Nov 10, 2007 2:28 pm 
By metaldragon

In ROM 65, there is a young woman in civilian clothes behind Mockingbird and next to Valkyrie on pg 11. Since she is in the same "row" of heroes as the Defenders, it's possible this could be Cloud but on page 13 lower panel what looks like the same character appears amongst "The Uncanny X-Men" (which is the caption on the panel) which implies that this is Shadowcat. Cloud does not appear in "The Dynamic Defenders" panel on page 14. 

I wasn't able to spot anyone who looked like this character anywhere in ROM 66.

"May the Light shine forever!"

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Nov 10, 2007 7:23 pm 
By lkseitz

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
The Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 2 #4 confirmed that Kitty was present on panel in ROM 65 and was BTS in ROM 66.
<<<

D'oh! I can't believe I didn't think to look it up in the INDEX myself. Thank, Paul. I guess that's that.


metaldragon wrote:
>>>
I wasn't able to spot anyone who looked like this character anywhere in ROM 66.
<<<

Sorry, I could have saved you that trouble. She's not there, hence the BTS listing. The presumption is that since many other heroes from #65 are still around in #66, including Wolverine, Colossus, and Nightcrawler, the rest of those teams would still be around, too, even if we don't see them. And yet, going by the colors, Brandy Clark found time to change clothes between issues. 
Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Thread 10

Subject: PPTSS 165-167

Nov 13, 2007 9:39 am 
By cweed4

currently- 
IMSVS 1 
PPTSS 165 
PPTSS 166 
PPTSS 167 
S-M 1 
S-M 2 
S-M 3 
S-M 4 
S-M 5 
T 427 
WOSM 64 
WOSM 65 
WOSM 66 

There is an exchange between Peter and Joe Robertson in PPTSS 165 that references a previous argument. This fight occurs in WOSM 64 after Nick Katzenburg reveals Pete's "fake" Spidey photos to JJJ and Robbie. Although this conflict can be resolved by moving either storyline (PPTSS 165-167 OR WOSM 64-65) it works better to move the former because of time references in subsequent issus of WOSM and the dangling MJ/Jason Jerome subplot from the end of PPTSS 167. 

suggested- 
IMSVS 1 
S-M 1 
S-M 2 
S-M 3 
S-M 4 
S-M 5 
T 427 
WOSM 64 
WOSM 65 
PPTSS 165
PPTSS 166
PPTSS 167 
WOSM 66

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Thread 11

Subject: Placement of flashbacks in World War Hulk: Gamma Corps #2

Sep 10, 2007 6:15 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Does anyone know if any of the flashbacks in World War Hulk: Gamma Corps #1 tie into previously published events or how they might fit into character chronologies? 

pgs. 5-7 
The Hulk is battling the Abomination in Florida. Nichole Martin's son is killed in the fallout. 

pgs. 14-15 
A few weeks later, Nichole Martin is in ICU and is offered a chance to have revenge on the Hulk. 

pgs. 8-9 
The Hulk goes on a rampage in a mall in Ontario. He nearly harms Robert Wilkerson and his wife, who is pregnant with Timothy Wilkerson and suffers a stroke in the womb. 

pgs. 16-17 
Timothy is a patient at the Toronto Institute of the Developmentally Disabled. He appears to be about ten. A radical procedure is proposed to deal with his condition. 

pgs. 10-11 
A few days later, Jim Wilson leaves home. The Hulk is spotted in New Mexico. 

pgs. 18-19 
Jim Wilson's funeral. 

pgs. 12-13 
At Leavenworth rison, Eliot Franklin (the Clown) is beaten up by fellow inmates the Enforcers for making fun of them. 

pgs. 20-21 
Probably the same day, Franklin is given an opportunity to be freed from prison.

Paul B.

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Sep 10, 2007 7:02 am 
By Jason Doty

Could the mall scene in Canada be part of the Hulk/Alpha Flight crossover around Alpha Flight no.28?

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Sep 10, 2007 8:31 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Unfortunately, no. The battle between Alpha Flight and the Hulk in AF 28-29 took place on the streets of Vancouver, not in an Ontario mall. 

I should also clarify that the scene with Jim Wilson leaving home on pages 10-11 occur a few days after the mall rampage on pages 8-9, not after pages 16-17. So that mall scene would have to take place much earlier in MU history than AF 28-29 -- back before Jim's first appearance in H2 131, published in September 1970. The Canadian flashback would need to occur during the Silver Age.

Paul B.

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Nov 11, 2007 2:43 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

How about if we place the Florida battle between Hulk and Abomination between pages of H2 451? It could occur while Hulk is on his way to take over Duck Key. I'm not sure if this squares with Abomination's chronology, but it does place the Hulk in the right place and the right frame of mind for a destructive tussle.Paul B.

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Nov 11, 2007 5:13 pm 
By SeanCurtin

At the time, the Abomination was still the head of his underground community in NYC, although there's not necessarily anything stopping him from leaving for a little while.

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Nov 12, 2007 6:45 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Not the best situation, but certainly not the worst (as in, Abomination without powers, presumed dead, incarcerated, etc.). 

Anyone have a better placement to suggest or will this do?

Paul B.

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Nov 12, 2007 8:55 am 
By Enda80

This reminds me. Anyone attempted to place the death of Valerie Thomas, Dai Thomas' spouse during a Thor/Hulk battle? 

Dai Thomas, policeman from Captain Britain stories, 
sees his wife Valerie killed in a battle between the 
Hulk, Thor, and possibly a super-villain while in New 
York. Mentioned in Guardian article in Daredevils 
(Marvel UK)#9, brief flashback in Captain Britain 
II#1, wife's name from Knights of Pendragon I. 

Also, did he (Thomas) ever mention his spouse in those CB weekly issues? 

There is a single panel in Captain Britain Vol.2 #1 p.6, where Dai recalls the death of his wife. You see her corpse, you se him reaching for her in the rubble, and you see silhouette's of the combatants - neither is clear, but on is carrying a hammer and wearing a cloak and what appears to be a winged helmet. Almost certainly Thor, but of course you can't 100% rule out Beta Ray Bill, Thunderstrike, Cosmic Avenger Thor, "Red" Norvell, Jake Olsen, Thor 2099, Dargo Ktor (Thor 2591), although they'd all need to use time travel to be there. (Thanks to Loki for this tidbit).

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Nov 13, 2007 11:33 pm 
By jannepie

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
The Canadian flashback would need to occur during the Silver Age.
<<<

I'm not near my comics right now, so I can't check, but didn't the Hulk battle Spider-Man in Canada once, in AMAZING SPIDER-MAn? I can't remember if it was Canada for sure, but IIRC it was a bit far away, and I can't remember a mall either.

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Nov 14, 2007 12:25 am 
By JD

I remember that one : ASM 119-120. Yeah, set in Canada, but it was on a dam, right ?

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Thread 12

Subject: Marvel Giveaways

Oct 05, 2007 10:02 am 
By Jeremy Johnston

This is my first post here, so I hope I am posting this in the proper place and it isn't something that has already been discussed here. 

I was searching around for some information on the old Wizard 1/2 and 0 issues they used to give away and I came across this site that has a list of a whole bunch of freebies. Not just Wizard, but restaurants, mail aways, etc. Now, from my experience, I know most of these are pretty lame, but do any of them count in continuity? I couldn't really find any of them listed. But I did notice that a Gambit cybercomic is, so I thought maybe I was missing something.

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Oct 05, 2007 5:33 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Ah, the good old Big Tel page. 

I don't know that the MCP has an "official policy" on giveaway comics, but the general trend seems to be that the Wizard #1/2 and #0 issues are considered canon (since a lot of them have been referenced in regular Marvel comics), and the rest of the giveaway books are quietly ignored. 

The Gambit Cybercomic is considered canon by way of reference (in GAM3 #12) as well. I don't know about the other cybercomics -- but since they're gone now, and we can't read, analyse and index them anymore, it's pretty much a dead issue at the moment. 

I would personally like to see the various giveaway books included as canon (well, the ones that fit into it, anyway). I collect them and consider them part of "my personal canon", which means essentially nothing.  Some folks around here have submitted analyses of some giveaway comics -- but at the moment, deciding whether or not to include them is more of a back-burner topic than anything else. 

-Jeph! 

EDIT: Welcome to the boards!

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Nov 15, 2007 4:32 pm 
By scottandrewhutchins

Some time back, I queried about the Spider-Man/Power Pack sex abuse awareness giveaway. 

The issue adds to one of the handful of flashback appearances of Uncle Ben, in which Peter tells a story about how an older kid exposed him to pornography.

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Thread 13

Subject: Initiative 7

Nov 15, 2007 4:04 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Spider-Man appears in Initiative 7, as does Aunt May. She's still in a private hospital room. This would place the issue before One More Day begins, where Aunt May is transferred to another hospital, in a non-private room. Dan Slott has said that this is Spider-Man's last pre-One More Day appearance. This issue also occurs close to the heels of World War Hulk. Avengers Tower, as well as New York City, is still in ruins. 

If this is Spider-Man's last pre-OMD appearance, and if this is just after WWH, it would place the current New Avengers arc pre-WWH. Since Spider-Woman has already dropped off the Skrull corpse to Iron Man and the arc isn't completed yet, this would give us a window for Stark to sit on the corpse while he decides what to do with it. 

Given that, and this, I think we're looking at this, roughly: 

Back in Black 
Fantastic Four 550 
New Avengers 27-34~Mighty Avengers 1-6 
Mighty Avengers 7 
New Avengers 35-37, Annual 
Fallen Son One Shots 
Silent War 1 (1-19) 
World War Hulk 
Initiative 7 
Silent War 1 (20-22), 2-6 
X-Factor 17-20 
One More Day 
Sub-Mariner 
New Avengers 39 
Illuminati 5 
Secret Invasion 

I've probably forgotten a few things.(Is Avengers Tower seen in Silent War? Or Spider-Man?I can't remember) Hopefully, the 'defection' alluded to in the upcoming New Avengers Annual won't mess things up too much. That, and the mention that the Annual sets up the status for the 'Skrull Stuff'.  

Thoughts?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

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Nov 15, 2007 5:03 am 
By Somebody
Director

Ah... I'd forgotten about the FF's appearance in Silent War #1 when i posted in Paul B's Endangered Species thread... (this is what happens when we stop reusing threads ). Like I expected, Cable/Deadpool #45-46 appears to be causing X/F4/WWH placement issues, and pushing WWH:X later than it should be for the X-Men... 

Although, with Illumanati #5'n'all, I've given up on Silent War's cliffhanger getting a direct follow-up 

PS: How far back could SW1 (1-19) get pushed? Apparently, Hine's What If: Annihilation has SW going on in the CW timeframe. As it seems to be a rule that What Ifs can reveal canon info....

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Nov 15, 2007 11:23 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Silent War during Civil War? That's crazy... the Mighty Avengers show up at the end of Silent War, they don't form until after Civil War has finished. Silent War has to be after Civil War because of the Mighty Avengers, and it has to be after Fantastic Four 550, when the original group reforms. Also, regardless of Black Bolt being a Skrull, Silent War has to finish after World War Hulk, because Attilan is intact when Hulk abducts 'Black Bolt', it's destroyed at the end of Silent War. 

Is the only thing messing that up Cable/Deadpool 45-46? If so, I say ignore/reinterpret the 'six weeks'. It's the weakest reference. 

On the other hand, the reference to the start of Silent War in WWH seems to want to have Silent War before it. Is it possible that Silent War happens entirely before WWH? And Attilan is just repaired off-panel? Like Somebody said, it's not likely we're going to see a follow up. In that case, Black Bolt would just be hanging around Attilan, if not in charge. I mean, where else does he have to go? If that's the case, we'd still have to chuck the 'six weeks' in C/DP. 

As for Initiative 7, Spider-Man shows up in his black suit, post-WWH, in Punisher War Journal 13. Initially, I want to say this is before Initiative 7, but the city seems more or less repaired in War Journal 13.  I dunno, maybe the destruction wasn't relevant to War Journal 13's plot? Initiative really seems to want to be Spider-Man's last OMD appearance...

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

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Nov 16, 2007 7:17 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
As for Initiative 7, Spider-Man shows up in his black suit, post-WWH, in Punisher War Journal 13. Initially, I want to say this is before Initiative 7, but the city seems more or less repaired in War Journal 13. I dunno, maybe the destruction wasn't relevant to War Journal 13's plot? Initiative really seems to want to be Spider-Man's last OMD appearance...
<<<

I wouldn't let the appearance of Manhattan throw us too much here. On page 4 of Initiative #7, Manhattan looks pretty good, and this issue supposedly occurs right after WWH! Apparently, the damage was contained to a part of the island, despite the massive destruction suggested in WWH 5. 

Avengers Tower does appear in shambles on page 1. This issue should occur prior to the reconstruction of Avengers Tower. We see the rebuilt tower sans Watchtower spires in IM4 21, then we see the completely rebuilt tower in IM4 23. The rebuilt tower appears in ASM 544 (One More Day). 

I think Spidey appears in a number of places between Initiative #7 (which suggests a code of A:TI right in the issue) and One More Day. One of those would be PWJ2 13. I'm not sure why A:TI 7 needs to be the last Spidey appearance prior to OMD.

Paul B.

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Nov 16, 2007 9:42 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
I think Spidey appears in a number of places between Initiative #7 (which suggests a code of A:TI right in the issue) and One More Day. One of those would be PWJ2 13. I'm not sure why A:TI 7 needs to be the last Spidey appearance prior to OMD.
<<<

It's because Dan Slott SAYS A:TI 7 is the "last Spidey pre-OMD" appearance, that's why!  

While there is something to be said for "writer's intent", I'm left wondering how feasible it is for this to be the last Spidey "Pre-OMD" appearance... 

unless the whole "casting doubt on Peter being Spider-Man" is meant to be the new status quo of Spider-Man post-OMD...Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Nov 16, 2007 8:33 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

The doubt issue better not be major factor forcing A:TI 5 to occur right before OMD. That sure would force a delay in the Initiative's response to the "gamma emergency" caused by WWH, not to mention a very quick reconstruction of the Tower. 

You know, this whole Spidey chronology is bugging me, too. May is shot right after the conclusion of the Civil War in ASM 538, and this leads right into ASM 539-542. In ASM 543, May's admittance to the hospital is referred to as having occurred "a few days ago" and the transfusion Peter gives her in ASM 541 is referred to as having occurred "the other day." ASM 543 leads right into One More Day. So then One More Day is supposed to occur about a week after the conclusion of Civil War if you go by no references other than ASM. Yup, all the black Spidey appearances get crammed into a time period of several days -- that includes the Death of Cap/Fallen Son, Mighty/New Avengers arc, World War Hulk, A:TI 5, PWJ2 13, FNSM 20-23, SENSM2 35-40, etc., etc. Yeahhhhh... Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy. 

Editorial intent? Where ARE the editors? No one at Marvel seems to have any handle on the big picture of the MU these days. Stories are written, then blown apart because the rest of MU chronology needs to be factored in. Then again, this isn't as bad as the countless times we have to deal with Event A happening before Event B happening before Event C happening before event A. 

Paul B.

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Nov 16, 2007 9:32 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

At least in this case with Spider-Man, we can't really blame editorial. They're not allowed to touch JMS' scripts, and if he felt like not leaving room for the other Spider-Books, there's nothing they could do about it. 

But hey! That's all in the past now that there's only one book left! 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

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Thread 14

Subject: Parentheses

Nov 21, 2007 3:31 am 
By Craverguy

What do numbers enclosed in () mean? I looked on the Key, but I couldn't find anything. 

For example, on the Norman Osborn chronology: 

MARVELS 2 (19 - 20) 
MARVELS 2 (33) 
SPECSM 2 (1 - 20:2) 
SPECSM 2 (20:3 - 58:6) 
MARVELS 4 (29 - 31)

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Nov 21, 2007 4:36 am 
By JD

Pages and panel ranges. 

>>>
SPECSM 2 (20:3 - 58:6)
MARVELS 4 (29 - 31)
<<<

For exemple, this means : 
SPECSM 2 (from page 20, panel 3 to page 58, panel 6) 
MARVELS 4 (from pages 29 to 31)

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Thread 15

Subject: Publication Dates

Nov 21, 2007 3:52 am 
By Craverguy

Does anyone know of a good website to find the dates that individual issues were published? Not the exact dates, but month and year? It would help in my move to combine the Norman Osborn, Harry Osborn, and Gaunt chronologies into The Big Ol' Green Goblin Comics List*. 









* "The Big Ol' Green Goblin Comics List" is a registered trademark of Craverguy International. So there. 

			*	*	*

Nov 21, 2007 4:38 am 
By JD

Close enough : you can find cover dates over at the Unofficial Handbook of Marvel Comics Creators (http://www.maelmill-insi.de/UHBMCC/)

			*	*	*

Nov 21, 2007 8:48 am 
By cweed4

The month and year for nearly all Spidey related comics can be found at http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/year/index.html

			*	*	*

Nov 21, 2007 6:18 pm 
By Craverguy

Thanks, guys.

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Subject: Endangered Species and other X-placements

Nov 11, 2007 12:51 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Does anyone have an idea when X-Men: Endangered Species and the various backup chapters in the Endangered Species storyline occur relative to other X-Men stories? Given that Xavier is present and that the Sanctum Sanctorum is the run-down "future home of Starbucks," I'm thinking that this occurs after Xavier's return to earth in UX 486 and long enough after X 204 for Sam to recover from his injuries (unless Sam is still laid up in Messiah Complex). It must occur prior to the story arc in NX 37-43, in which Beast appears just prior to Messiah Complex. I'm assuming the New X-Men appear in WWH:X before NX 37-43, and thus Messiah Complex is post-WWH. I don't know if Endangered Species is necessarily before or after World War Hulk. 

Thoughts?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 11, 2007 1:07 pm 
By Somebody
Director

CBR, X-Position 14 wrote:
Sounds like a plan. Next, Yema Latify had a question about the ES' back-up story timeline. We clearly see Beast with the X-Men during X-Men' #200-202, so when did his travels during the Endangered Species' take place?
[...]
Nick Lowe: I may be able to help you here, Yema! The events of X-Men #200-204 take place in a very concentrated amount of time, just before the big Messiah CompleX crossover. The events in Endangered Species take place a little before that.

Oh, and one little, bigger-picture point since ES is being brought up - Endangered Species can't occur simultaneously with Annihilation: Conquest as... 

[spoiler]The High Evolutionary's in the Phalanx bubble and thus incommunicado, per AnnConq1[/spoiler]

			*	*	*

Nov 11, 2007 3:26 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Nick Lowe wrote: 
>>>
I may be able to help you here, Yema! The events of X-Men #200-204 take place in a very concentrated amount of time, just before the big Messiah CompleX crossover. The events in Endangered Species take place a little before that.
<<<

Hmm. And I had Sam's absence in WWH:X explained by his incapacity following injuries in UX 200-204.  

One possible problem with Nick's scenario is that continuity forces us to tack most of C&DP 37-42 and X 189-199 onto that "concentrated" X 200-204 unless we can find decent gaps. Remember that C&DP 45-46 occur while T'Challa and Storm were in the FF and thus before WWH. 

We seem to be looking at this rough order, from Nick's comments: 
X:ES and backups (Annihilation: Conquest follows this) 
C&DP 37-42/X 189*-204 [*page 19 on] 
NM 37-43 
X:MC 
Messiah Complex crossovers 

We'd need to insert the following between X 204 and NM 37 -- 
C&DP 43-46 -- "weeks" after C&DP 39 
FF 550 
WWH:X 

Suddenly we're not looking at X 200-204 occurring "just before" Messiah Complex. 

Another question: is Xavier even back from space when X 200-204 occurs? If he is back, where the heck is he during this arc, especially given how he's prone to sticking his nose into X-Men affairs?

Paul B.

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Nov 11, 2007 3:45 pm 
By Somebody
Director

1) The lights going out on Iceman, a just-recovered consciousness Cannonball & Blindfold in X204 actually occurs AFTER the start of X:MCX - that's caused, per Blindfold's comment, by Cerebra getting blown out in the "new" mutant birth. 
2) If you NEED Xavier to be somewhere else, plonk his appearance in Captain America v5 #28 to interrogate Crossbones simultaneous with X200-204 if UX487-491 won't do. He's got to be back from space by then. 
3) The stated intent, as I recall, for WWH:X was for it to be during the events of X194-199. Iceman & Cannonball are missing because they're with the Rogue/Cable team. 

PS: You call NX (New X-Men v2, formerly New X-Men: Academy X) NM (New Mutants v1).

			*	*	*

Nov 11, 2007 5:00 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
The stated intent, as I recall, for WWH:X was for it to be during the events of X194-199. Iceman & Cannonball are missing because they're with the Rogue/Cable team. 
<<<

Unfortunately, creator intents are being chucked out the window left and right these days, given that Marvel can't get its continuity right. The whole Cable/Deadpool tie-in to FF demands that X 194-199, and by extension X 200-203, take place prior to World War Hulk.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
The lights going out on Iceman, a just-recovered consciousness Cannonball & Blindfold in X204 actually occurs AFTER the start of X:MCX - that's caused, per Blindfold's comment, by Cerebra getting blown out in the "new" mutant birth. 
<<<

That's right. The sequence goes:
NEW X-MEN v2 #42
X-MEN: MESSIAH COMPLEX #1  FB (6-8)
X-MEN v2 #204 (19-22)
X-MEN: MESSIAH COMPLEX #1  FB (9)
X-MEN: MESSIAH COMPLEX #1  FB (15-18p3)
X-MEN: MESSIAH COMPLEX #1
UNCANNY X-MEN #492

If Messiah Complex and the arc of NX 37-42 must occur after WWH, there's going to have to be gaps in X 204. That would certainly be consistent with the Marauders' boredom and impatience at doing nothing, and with Scott's (probably lengthy) obsession with a memory of Cable.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
2) If you NEED Xavier to be somewhere else, plonk his appearance in Captain America v5 #28 to interrogate Crossbones simultaneous with X200-204 if UX487-491 won't do. He's got to be back from space by then. 
<<<

In C&DP 41, which occurs between X 199 and 200, Nathan instructs Mystique to get Rogue to Hank McCoy and Emma Frost. "Short of getting Charles Xavier's help...and having just lost the telepathy I'd reacquired --- they're the best chance she has." This is a strong implication that Charles is still in space, unreachable. I would think that if he were busy doing anything else on earth, the X-Men would make the effort to contact him. X 200 continues directly through X 203 (in which Sam is badly injured), and X 204 (1-3) probably follows right after that. It would seem that Xavier returns from space following page 3 of X 204. 

Of couse, Xavier is back before WWH:X. So this is another argument, aside from the FF reference cited earlier, to place X 194-203 before WWH and to put gaps in X 204. It's why I theorized that Sam's infirmity explains why he wasn't present in WWH:X. 

Unfortunately, X-MEN: ENDANGERED SPECIES features both Xavier and a healthy Sam. Sam is still laid up at the end of X 204, which follows from the start of Messiah Complex, as above. Thus is my challenge to place X:ES. 

Question: could a span of time separate X:ES and the Endangered Species backup chapters? Could Xavier and Sam appear in X:ES prior to Xavier's space trip and the chapters (with the Sanctum Starbucks) occur at a later time, closer to X 194-203, WWH, or Messiah Complex?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 11, 2007 5:44 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Question: could a span of time separate X:ES and the Endangered Species backup chapters? Could Xavier and Sam appear in X:ES prior to Xavier's space trip and the chapters (with the Sanctum Starbucks) occur at a later time, closer to X 194-203, WWH, or Messiah Complex?
<<<

I like that, in that it would sperad out the Beast's thoughts on the 'no more mutants' problem on panel. With everything packed on the back-end near WWH, it makes it look like the Beast forgot about it, and started investigating months after it was an immediate problem. 

What are the chances of the backups occuring either before Xavier leaves for space, or during the begenning of it? Then, after the Beast doesn't find anything, all of his other appearances occur? This would give it a more immediate feel, but I'm not sure if that can work.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 11, 2007 6:02 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Xavier's a telepath in X:ES.

			*	*	*

Nov 11, 2007 6:24 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

There's my memory without checking for ya. 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 12, 2007 6:51 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
Xavier's a telepath in X:ES.
<<<

Dang! Good catch, Somebody. So we're faced with the problem of Sam being up and about in X:ES when it seems that this story line should occur in a gap in X 204, when he's in a long recovery in sick bay.

Paul B.

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Nov 12, 2007 9:24 am 
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
We'd need to insert the following between X 204 and NM 37
<<<

Er, wait a second : where does it say that NX 37-41 (or even 42-43) have to take place after X 200-203 ? Or after WWH ? 
I'll have to check again, but I seem to recall some vague references to the Magik storyline in WWH:X...

			*	*	*

Nov 12, 2007 12:49 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Say we say that Reed & Sue return to Earth *because of* WWH, then resume their honeymoon, whereupon Reed finds the hard-disc-meteor, Wizard attacks, etc. 

How would that clear the decks?

			*	*	*

Nov 13, 2007 9:58 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

JD wrote: 
>>>
Er, wait a second : where does it say that NX 37-41 (or even 42-43) have to take place after X 200-203 ? Or after WWH ?
<<<

In NX 43, Predator X detects the birth of the new mutant and this leads directly into Messiah Complex. In NM 43, it is noted that the New X-Men's battle with Belasco took place just "two days" ago. 

NM 37-43 appears to be intended as the final X story arc prior to Messiah Complex.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 13, 2007 10:26 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
Say we say that Reed & Sue return to Earth *because of* WWH, then resume their honeymoon, whereupon Reed finds the hard-disc-meteor, Wizard attacks, etc. 
<<<

Certainly plausible. Although if you're trying to make WWH concurrent with the X 194-199 ~ C&DP 38-42 story arc as previously suggested, we would need a reinterpretation of Cable's remark in C&DP 41 about Xavier not being available, when he was clearly at the Institute during WWH.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 13, 2007 11:06 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Cable simply wasn't aware Xavier had returned to Earth AND was powered, given that he hadn't seen him since... oh... C/DP 3. Simple. 

[And before you bring up the global mindlink - and are you using Bullseye killing a man as a placement clue putting C/DP 40 (16) ~ Tbolts 116 (6) given Bullseye's limitations on killing in this general timeframe?  - Cable mindlinked with Deadpool in C/DP 40 explicitly. Deadpool had decided to go to Providence as of C/DP 39. And the poker game being played in the DP bits of C/DP 40 was them stalling until they could take the AX jet to the area. Yet Cable was surprised DP turned up in C/DP 41, so clearly any knowledge he obtained through Urizen faded after the mummradrai's death. 

Or Xavier was auto-psi-shielding himself. Whichever is easier ]

			*	*	*

Nov 14, 2007 12:31 am 
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
NM 37-43 appears to be intended as the final X story arc prior to Messiah Complex.
<<<

Also, I've rechecked WWH:X, and clues point to it happening BEFORE NX 37 : Rockslide in "normal rock" form, Decimation uniforms for the New X-Men (as opposed to the ones they get in NX 43), Anole and Pixie not on the "training" team, and above all, Pixie without dark strikes on herself. 

So I was mistaken.

			*	*	*

Nov 15, 2007 7:57 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Rockslide regains his "normal" form (well, his "new" normal form, his spiky look) in NX #42. But yes, Pixie's lack of burnt-wings is the giveaway. 

I should, however, express discomfort at the usage of the "two days" temporal-reference for placement. Surely a better indicator would be the list of recent X-villains that Rockslide claims to have defeated single-handedly in NX #37... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Nov 25, 2007 3:02 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
The stated intent, as I recall, for WWH:X was for it to be during the events of X194-199. Iceman & Cannonball are missing because they're with the Rogue/Cable team. 
<<<

But...X 194-199 lead right into X 200-203. The X-Men and New X-Men who appear X 201-202 also appear in WWH:X, where are bunch of them are badly beaten by the Hulk. So the story arcs don't entirely happen at the same time. 

I'm inclined to place WWH:X just after X 194-203. Sam doesn't appear in WWH because he's in sick bay. Most the rest of the Rogue/Cable team are gone at this point. Bobby's the only problem here -- he could've been kayoed by Hulk off-panel for all we know.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 25, 2007 3:47 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Well, any time between Supernovas & Blinded then. The basic point was that the adjectiveless team were "busy" and thus couldn't be fitted in - a point realised after the #3 cover was done with Rogue and Iceman on it. 

Otherwise, I think it was between Rise/Fall and Extremists for Uncanny, and I don't think they mentioned a point for NXM.

			*	*	*

Nov 25, 2007 3:53 pm 
By Paul Boucier
Director

See my suggested chronology over in the Zemo thread (of all places).

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 25, 2007 5:03 pm 
By Somebody
Director

You just put the NXM arc Mercury heavily references in WWH:X post-WWH.

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Subject: Hobgoblin

Nov 19, 2007 5:15 pm 
By Craverguy

I'm trying to use the Chronology to create a master list of all Hobgoblin appearances, both Kingsley and Macendale. So I have two questions: 

1. Is there any way to tell where the Ned-Leeds-as-Hobgoblin appearances fit into the chronology without actually tracking down copies of those issues and checking the copyright dates? 

2. How do I tell which appearances listed for Jason Macendale are as the Hobgoblin and which are as the Jack O' Lantern?

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Nov 19, 2007 11:47 pm 
By Craverguy

Um...just ignore this. I sorted it out with the "Spider-Man/Hobgoblin Timeline" in the back of my trade paperback of Spider-Man: Hobgoblin Lives.

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Nov 19, 2007 11:53 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

No worries, buddy. Welcome to the boards!

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 20, 2007 1:00 am 
By Craverguy

Actually, I have one more question: How soon will the Hobgoblin's appearances in the two "Spider-Girl" titles be added to the Chronology?

			*	*	*

Nov 20, 2007 2:38 am 
By Somebody
Director

They won't be. Separate universe.

			*	*	*

Nov 20, 2007 3:50 pm 
By michaelyuri

Well, I think the chronologies for the MC-2 characters are going to be added to the site eventually, but when they do they'll be separate and distinct from the primary marvel universe chronologies. 

You can find the Hobgoblin's appearances in the original Spider-Girl title in this thread: http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... php?t=2585 

Some of his later appearances can be found in the Amazing Spider-Girl threads in the Issue Analysis forum: 
http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... php?t=2915 
http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... php?t=3039 

-Mike

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Nov 20, 2007 9:07 pm 
By Craverguy

Thanks.

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Nov 24, 2007 8:28 am 
By GodRob

Craverguy, 

Regarding Hobgoblins, what does your timeline say in reference to Alpha Flight 121? The MCP shows appearances by both Jack O'Lantern II and Hobgoblin V. 

This issue is filled with villains, although the artwork is pretty detailed and most are easily identifiable. I only see Jack O'Lantern II, no hobgoblins anywhere, but he could be hidden in one of panels.

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Nov 25, 2007 9:42 pm 
By Craverguy

I've never heard of a fifth Hobgoblin. And Macendale's appearances as Jack O'Lantern don't go on the timeline because he's not technically the Hobgoblin (also, because I am lazy ).

			*	*	*

Nov 26, 2007 5:01 am 
By GodRob

Sorry, I didn't phrase my question very well at all!  

Does your timeline show an appearance for Hobgoblin in Alpha Flight 121? 

Specifically, Macendale as the Hobgblin. Looking through the issue I couldn't find him, but the Marvel Chronology Project shows that he's there.

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Subject: Classic X-Men establishes that Storm worships Gaea

Mar 11, 2006 11:51 am 
By Enda80

GAEA
T@ 10-FB
T@ 11-FB
A 187-FB
SS@ 2/5-FB
**UX 262-FB
DRSTR2 6
DRSTR2 7
{GSA 4}
DRSTR2 8
**CX 20/2-BTS
T 300
T 301
DRSTR3 2-BTS
T@ 14
FF@ 22/2
Q 24
Q 25
DEF2 1
DEF2 12/2
ORDER 5
ORDER 6
WITCHES 1

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Storm.html

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/sh ... dAuto=1724

Classic X-Men#20/2 establishes that Storm worships Mother Earth/Mother Nature-who is of course Gaea. Therefore, Gaea was the Bright Lady in Storm's fb.

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Mar 11, 2006 1:02 pm 
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Just because Storm worships an entity which she BELIEVES to be Mother Earth, it doesn't necessarily follow that it actually IS Gaea. It could just as easily be some local god.

-- Paul O'Brien

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Mar 13, 2006 11:20 am 
By Ocean Doot

Plus, how is any god behind the scenes in Classic X-Men 20/2? Isn't that a story about Storm fighting zombies? As I recall, at one point Storm is too weak to use her lightning powers on one of them, but then lightning strikes it anyway. And the narration implies that this was "mother Earth" lookin' out for her gal. That could just as easily be poetic license on the part of Jo Duffy, no? I certainly never took it literally.

			*	*	*

Mar 14, 2006 9:09 am 
By Enda80

Storm is too weak to fly away, she realizes that she must kill these monsters to save herself-but she has sworn not to take a life. Bolts of lightning then strike down the zombies. 

"However, whether people believe her to be real or not, when they refer to Mother Nature or Mother Earth, they are speaking about Gaea." 

http://web.archive.org/web/200410212249 ... -gaea.html

			*	*	*

Mar 14, 2006 1:06 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Is that an official quote from a Marvel editor? 

-Jeph!

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Mar 14, 2006 1:28 pm 
By Ocean Doot

And even if it is, I really can't see that it applies in this case. It's as if you're suggesting that any time a story is impacted directly by nature or the weather, it's a BTS appearance for this character from Thor. 

I mean, if it had been Nightcrawler instead of Storm, and he had thanked God upon seeing the zombies struck down by lightning, would that be a BTS appearance for God?

			*	*	*

Mar 14, 2006 4:00 pm 
By Enda80

OHOTMUDE#5. The Bright Lady apparition should still count, the appearance in Uncanny X-Men I#262.

			*	*	*

Mar 14, 2006 6:08 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

I've edited out your baiting, John.

			*	*	*

Mar 14, 2006 11:13 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Did he use the words "Hebrew Hitler"? 

And John, I'm not seeing anything relevant in OHOTMUDE #5. Gaea's entry is in #4, but it just says what you quoted above, about people who think of Mother Earth thinking of Gaea. 

(That same entry says "Gaea is no longer worshipped", by the way.) 

And I'm still not seeing anything linking Storm's "Bright Lady" to "Mother Earth" and therefore to Gaea. Maybe if you actually gave the EVIDENCE from CX #20/2, instead of just stating your conclusion? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 15, 2006 6:32 am 
By Enda80

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Storm.html 

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/images/Storm_03.jpg 

The story published in Classic X-Men #20 explicitly 
identifies the Goddess worshipped by Storm as Mother 
Nature or Mother Earth, i.e., Gaea. Take a look at the image 
at the second link posted. 

"For Mother Nature....Mother Earth is.............the only other parent you have acknowledged since your childhoold". 

"Gaea is no longer worshipped or thought to be real in the monotheistic cultures of the present day. " So, obviously, Muslims, Christians, Samaritans and Orthodox Judaists do not worship her, but there still exist Hindus, Shintoists, and many others in the world.

			*	*	*

Mar 15, 2006 12:47 pm 
By rhod

Does this mean that every pantheistic culture that worships an earth-goddess is worshipping the SAME earth-goddess, ie. Gaea? I don't see this as being the case at all, not in the real world, and most certainly not in the MU, where we already have overwhelming evidence that, for example, the Norse, Greek, Egyptian etc. gods are distinct.

"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

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Mar 15, 2006 2:13 pm 
By Enda80

In Thor I#301, Gaea admitted to have served as a maternal ancestor to many of the gods of Earth under many different names. (The Annunaki will probably serve as the exception, due to their ancestry from Apsu; see Baal's entry.) 

As her recent entry says http://www.immortalthor.net/bio-gaea.html: 

"Aliases: Mother Earth, Mother Nature, Jord, Nertha, Aditi, Coatique, Rangi, the Great Mother, Akka, Ala, Ammaveru, Citlacicue, Coatilique, Danu, Eithinoha, Erce, Hou-Tou, Nana, Ninhursag, Nokomis, Pachamama, Prakriti, Vaat, Yo, many others" 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/atum.htm 
http://www.comicboards.com/thor/view.ph ... 57&q=Atali 

"In Sumerian Myth, the Mesopotamian gods were descended from Tiamat, the dragon-goddess and Apsu, the god of fresh water rather than a Mother Earth figure such as Gaea. Concievably, this might be why they degenerated into demons in the Marvel Universe." 

per William Uchtman

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Mar 15, 2006 5:42 pm 
By rhod

MANY is still not EVERY.

"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

			*	*	*

Mar 15, 2006 6:01 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
As her recent entry says http://www.immortalthor.net/bio-gaea.html:

"Aliases: Mother Earth, Mother Nature, Jord, Nertha, Aditi, Coatique, Rangi, the Great Mother, Akka, Ala, Ammaveru, Citlacicue, Coatilique, Danu, Eithinoha, Erce, Hou-Tou, Nana, Ninhursag, Nokomis, Pachamama, Prakriti, Vaat, Yo, many others"

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/atum.htm
http://www.comicboards.com/thor/view.ph ... 57&q=Atali

"In Sumerian Myth, the Mesopotamian gods were descended from Tiamat, the dragon-goddess and Apsu, the god of fresh water rather than a Mother Earth figure such as Gaea. Concievably, this might be why they degenerated into demons in the Marvel Universe."

per William Uchtman
<<<

blahblahblah. What do the books by Marvel say? 


watching: situation room

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Mar 15, 2006 9:09 pm 
By Enda80

I was referring to her entry in the 2005 Female Characters Handbook, where it is stated that she was a member of virtually all pantheons, as well as her OHOMUTDE handbook, which stated the same. In any event, as noted, this was also stated in Thor I#301.

			*	*	*

Mar 15, 2006 10:00 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
I was referring to her entry in the 2005 Female Characters Handbook, where it is stated that she was a member of virtually all pantheons, as well as her OHOMUTDE handbook, which stated the same.
<<<

Uhhhh, I don't think so. It looks like you were referring to immortalthor.net, the Appendix, and Alvaro's Comicboards. 


watching: 24

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Mar 15, 2006 10:47 pm 
By Enda80

Ah, but those are verbatim copied from the Handbook entries fo Gaea (except for the part about Apsu).

			*	*	*

Mar 16, 2006 12:39 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Perhaps. But that's my point. You weren't referring to the Handbook. 


watching: nancy grace

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Mar 16, 2006 5:16 am 
By Paul O'Brien
Director

Enda is right that canonical sources such as the HANDBOOK have stated in the past that the "mother earth" figure in many pantheons is actually Gaea, who apparently puts it about a bit. It is, however, a leap of logic to conclude that every character who claims to be an earth mother is Gaea. The Bright Lady could quite plausibly be Gaea, and it would certainly make sense if that were to be revealed, but that's as far as you can go. (An equally valid interpretation, given that the Bright Lady has never been shown interacting with anyone else, is that she doesn't truly exist at all, and she's merely a hallucination of some sort.)
-- Paul O'Brien

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Mar 17, 2006 3:55 pm 
By Ocean Doot

"(An equally valid interpretation, given that the Bright Lady has never been shown interacting with anyone else, is that she doesn't truly exist at all, and she's merely a hallucination of some sort.)" 

I'm still hazy on where she even shows up in Classic X-Men #20. The narration says that Mother Nature struck down the villains, and uses a bit of personification in the way it describes what's happening. But it's just flowery narration. All that happened is that they got struck by lightning!

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Mar 17, 2006 7:37 pm 
By Enda80

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/images/Storm_04.jpg 
Kind of odd that the lightning should fork the way that it did, in four or more different directions, and that Storm did not get hit by it.

			*	*	*

Mar 17, 2006 9:57 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Very odd indeed. It's almost enough to make one believe that Storm has some sort of preternatural connection with the weather! 

-Sean

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Mar 18, 2006 4:08 am 
By Enda80

If you read the story (see the scan) it is clear that this is not a case of Storm using her powers, since she is thinking to herself how she cannot bring herself to kill the mindless monsters she is facing.

			*	*	*

Mar 18, 2006 11:17 am 
By Somebody
Director

Not consciously, but it's been long-established that the weather around her mirrors her emotional state, after all...

			*	*	*

Mar 22, 2006 3:04 pm 
By Ocean Doot

>>>
Kind of odd that the lightning should fork the way that it did, in four or more different directions, and that Storm did not get hit by it.
<<<

Fair enough. But speaking personally, it seems like adding a BTS for a Thor character is a needless complication to a fairly simple story. Just my opinion, o' course.

			*	*	*

Mar 22, 2006 3:31 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I'm not sure simplicity is the issue. If a character made their presence known, we should list them. The question is: 

1) Was that the Bright Lady, or was it Storm's subconscious? 
2) Is the Bright Lady really Gaea? 

If question 1 is decided in the affirmative, I suppose the best solution would be to create a "Bright Lady" MCP entry, and potentially add a "see also Gaea?" notation. 

-Jeph!

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Mar 22, 2006 4:52 pm 
By Ocean Doot

Or: 

3.) a fluke of nature that Storm interpreted as something more.

			*	*	*

Mar 23, 2006 4:44 am 
By Paul O'Brien
Director

On the one hand, you could treat this sort of event as a BTS appearance for the god in question. On the other hand, if you follow that logic to its conclusion, it would also involve giving God a BTS appearance every time a Christian has a religious experience on panel.-- 

Paul O'Brien

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Mar 23, 2006 8:50 am 
By jephyork
Director

Taking that logic to its conclusion ... well, yes it would. If something truly supernatural happens, it's potentially likely that some agent WAS working BTS. And it's likely that, in some cases, that agent might clearly be identifiable as God. (Or, to clarify, the Marvel Universe's version of God -- who actually does exist, as seen in FF #511.) 

I don't see your hypothetical scenario happening often enough that it would become absurd to list them all, honestly. 

-Jeph!

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Mar 23, 2006 10:20 am 
By Enda80

Gaea has proven a much more benevolent deity than the Abrahamic God, so I find it more plausible that she would help heroes such as Storm.

			*	*	*

Oct 08, 2006 9:38 am 
By Enda80

http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:D ... _2005#Gaea

			*	*	*

Oct 08, 2006 2:52 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

John, PLEASE stop sending posts that consist solely of links. SAY what you need to say -- paraphrase an argument made elsewhere, include a link if you'd like, but for Gaea's sake stop sending us elsewhere in search of some kind of point.Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 08, 2006 4:40 pm 
By Somebody
Director

*wonders how many hundreds of e-mails enda sent to get that "correction" made*

			*	*	*

Oct 08, 2006 8:09 pm 
By Enda80

Just one

			*	*	*

Oct 08, 2006 10:33 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Just one hundred, huh? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Oct 09, 2006 6:25 am 
By Enda80

no, a single e-mail, not a hundred

			*	*	*

Oct 09, 2006 9:45 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Oh, no kidding, just one e-mail? I was absolutely certain that you actually did mean one hundred e-mails. My mistake good sir, I doff my cap to you. 

 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 01, 2007 8:16 am 
By Enda80

Another Gaea related note: 

The goddesses in a fb in Thor I#301 gather together to discuss the plan to start the Young Gods. Gaea, Frigga, Hera, and Amaterasu seem to have been amongst them based on the issue itself, and the entry for the Kami in A-Z Update#1. 

Is this reflected in their chronologies?

			*	*	*

Apr 01, 2007 1:08 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Why don't you go check their chronologies and find out? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Nov 23, 2007 7:17 pm 
By Enda80

Okay, Mystic Arcana Majik#1 establishes that Oshtur is in fact the Bright Lady. Marvel Vision#24's letters page still supports my contention that Storm worships Gaea.

			*	*	*

Nov 26, 2007 2:17 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Annnnnd, Enda bumps yet another thread that's been dead for seven months. We should all take bets as to which one he'll do next. 

By the way, "Marvel Vision #24's letters page" is not a canon source. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Subject: Marvel Atlas #1

Nov 29, 2007 12:47 am 
By wolframbane

Marvel Atlas (M/ATLAS). Well, I have been waiting for this one for a while, and it was well worth the wait. The first issue covers Europe, Asia and Australia, and the next will cover Africa, Antarctica and the Amerias. Some observations: 
1. Each country is covered exceptionally well, with descriptions of the country, its statistics, maps for their locations (particularly well done for the fictional countries such as Sin Cong or Transia). 
2. In depth histories of each country, often combining real world history with fictional elements uch as the superhuman populations. The histories often combine dozens of unconnected elements from numerous other stories, such as how Russia (OHOTMU: Teams) and Japan (Avengers Most Wanted Files) were covered. Latveria is well done, even incorporating some of the unofficial history of the country previously only seen in TSRs 'Lands of Doom' roleplaying supplement. 
3. The listing under Japan places Monster Island officially of the coast of Japan (as per numerous sources), retonning its placement as in the Bermuda Triangle in FF 1. It also place the events of FF 1 "approximately 13 years ago", which seems to corespond with it being 13 years since the FF gained their powers in THING2 8 (Ben Grimm had his 'second' bar mitzvah). 
4. One thing I would have liked seeing was Marvel's official take on the America military actions in Vietnam after the Vietnam War to explain the characters whose origins tied to the Vietnam War, but who the sliding timeline has since placed later. 
5. In the second issue, I hope that they have a list of all the fictional countries in the Marvel Universe that did not warrant their own listing, no matter how minor (like Rudyardia, Azania, or Prussland).

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Subject: Thor timeline circa '81

Nov 30, 2007 2:02 am 
By whatcomesnext?

Using this website as a resource, I've been planning to read the entire Marvel Universe from Thor 271 through Hulk Annual 11 once I acquire what I'm still missing. Lots of characters appear in both issues so they are good markers for the continuity minded. Trying to find where H@ 11 occurs in Thor's chronology has proved problematic as I've noticed some descrepancies. 

In the Hulk timeline H@ 11 comes before H2 254. The Thor timeline has Thor appearing in H2 255 before H@ 11. 

The Thing timeline has Ben appearing in (among other things) Thor 305, FF 225, and H@ 11 in that order. The Thor timeline has those 3 issues in reverse order. 

So maybe Thor's appearances in FF 225, H2 255, and H@ 11 come later in his timeline than they are currently listed? Not having those issues handy I can't suggest an alternate place for them. Anyone? 

Also, during that same period Thor is listed as appearing in M/GN 30 (A Sailor's Story). Should that perhaps be M/GN 33 (I Whom the Gods Would Destroy)?

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Subject: Immortal Iron Fist #8-9 + Annual #1

Oct 22, 2007 1:52 pm 
By DonCampbell

Analysis of Immortal Iron Fist #8-9 and Annual #1 

THE IMMORTAL IRON FIST #8 (cover-dated October, 2007) 
The Seven Capital Cities of Heaven part 1 

Appearances: Wendell Rand, Iron Fist (Daniel Rand), Lei Kung the Thunderer (in both the past and the present), Yu-Ti (current), Yu-Ti (past), Davos (as a young man and also as his older self, Steel Serpent), Mr. Xao, Jeryn Hogarth, unnamed HYDRA soldiers, Fat Cobra, the Bride of Nine Spiders, Dog Brother #1, Tigers Beautiful Daughter, the Prince of Orphans, Crane Mother, Spider-Mistress, various attendants (including two of Crane Mothers daughters), 100 Shaolin Terror Priests (none named), blue-eyed servant girl 

Brief Synopsis: Many years ago, Wendell Rand climbed a snow-covered mountain to reach the city of Kun-Lun where he found a home, a new teacher (Lei Kung) and a new friend (Davos). In the present, Jeryn Hogarth is in the Kun-Lun Mountains being forced by Steel Serpent and Mr. Xao to supervise construction of a theoretical project (the maglev train track). In the city of Kun-Lun, Danny Rand learns about the mighty tournament between the champions of the seven capital cities of heaven which occurs once every eighty-eight years. Later, on the first night, Yu-Ti and Lei Kung escort Danny into the Heart of Heaven where he meets the champions and some of the rulers of the other six cities. In an exhibition match, Fat Cobra easily defeats 100 Shaolin Terror Monks and is allowed to choose his first opponent and, to Dannys dismay, he chooses the immortal Iron Fist. 

Detailed Synopsis: 
Page 1 is a recap page that doesnt provide any new information. 

Pages 2-4: Many years ago, an orphaned young man who had taken the name Wendell Rand makes a supreme effort in climbing a snow-covered mountain and finally reaches the city of Kun-Lun. 

Pages 5-7: In present-day Kun-Lun, Danny studies The Book of the Iron Fist and then accompanies Lei Kung to meet with Yu-Ti who tells him about the seven capital cities of heaven, their champions, the heavenly convergence which occurs once every eighty-eight years, and the mighty tournament in which the immortal weapons of the cities fight each other. 

Pages 8-11: In the past, Wendell regains consciousness four days after he was found collapsed and half-frozen outside the front gates of Kun-Lun. Lei Kung begins to suspect that Wendell was taught to fight by Orson Randall and, days later, confirms his suspicions while sparring with Wendell. Following Lei Kungs advice, Wendell does not mention Orson to Yu-Yi and claims he only found Kun-Lun by getting lost. After Yu-Ti welcomes him to Kun-Lun, Wendell becomes one of Lei Kungs students and meets a new sparring partner and friend named Davos. 

Pages 12-13: In the Himalayas on Earth, Steel Serpent contacts Mr. Xao for an update on their progress in building a railway. When Jeryn Hogarth points out the difficulties that will make it almost impossible to meet the deadline, Steel Serpent orders Xao to remove one of Jeryns mothers fingers. 

Pages 14-23: In Kun-Lun, Lei Kung escorts Iron Fist to Yu-Ti and then the three of them travel to the Heart of Heaven, a palace created out of aspects of all seven cities and of Earth itself. Once there, Yu-Ti identifies the champions from the six other cities as Fat Cobra, the Bride of Nine Spiders, Dog Brother #1 from the under-city, Tigers Beautiful Daughter, the mysterious Prince of Orphans, and the Steel Serpent from Kun-Zi. Fat Cobra is chosen to entertain them during the first nights feast by fighting an exhibition match against 100 of the finest Shaolin Terror Priests from around the world. During the match, Danny notices a serving girl with blue eyes. Once Fat Cobra easily wins the match, Heavens Heart becomes whole and Fat Cobra is rewarded by being allowed to choose who his first opponent will be. He chooses the immortal Iron Fist from Kun-Lun. 

References: 
Wendell Rands journey to and arrival in Kun-Lun are described as occurring many years ago. 

The story is a bit vague about how much time has passed since issue #6. Danny isnt sure if he has been in Kun-Lun for a day or a week but that is because time moves strangely in Kun-Lun. Meanwhile, on Earth, it looks like Jeryn has made some progress in building that railway in the Kun-Lun Mountains. It was established in issue #4 that 90% of the construction materials and support personnel were already in place and they were ready to start building the 200 kilometers of ultramagnetic track as soon as Xao gave the word. So, does anyone know how long it would take to build 200 kilometers of maglev track? In the Himalayan Mountains? 

Interesting facts: The present-day Yu-Ti reveals that the seven capital cities of heaven each appear on the mortal plane at different times according to timetables charted amongst the stars but that once every eighty-eight years these appearances align in the heavenly convergence during which sections of each city and places on Earth join together to create the Heart of Heaven, a palace where their tournament takes place. During the last convergence, Dannys predecessor (Orson) refused to fight. For this dishonor he was to be stripped of his gifts but he resisted, killed one of the other champions and fled. That celebration ended in disgrace for them all. 

Each champion fights for his/her citys right to its place on the Earthly realm. The battles fought during the tournament decide the order of the cities of heaven in the Celestial Clockwork. Failure will lock Kun-Lun away from Earth for fifty years instead of only ten. 

The last panel on page 23 shows the initial match-ups for the tournament. There seem to be six matches in total which seem to be grouped into three tiers. On the first tier, the matches are Iron Fist vs. Fat Cobra, Tigers Beautiful Daughter vs. Steel Serpent, and Bride of Nine Spiders vs. Dog Brother #1. On the second tier, the winners of the first two matches fight each other while the winner of the third match fights Prince of Orphans. And on the third tier the winners of the last two matches fight. 

Retcon alert: In two of the IRON FIST stories written by Chris Claremont it was stated that Wendell Rand-Kai was the first-born son of Tuan, who was then Yu-Ti and that the current Yu-Ti was born Lord Tuans second son. To me, this seemed to FIRMLY establish that Wendell was the biological son of Tuan, that he was probably born in Kun-Lun, and that the current Yu-Ti was his blood relative. However, later writer Mary Jo Duffy retconned Wendells origin by having Yu-Ti tell Danny (in PM&IF #75) that Wendell Rand was an American adventurer who had become trapped in Kun-Lun while saving Tuans life and who had been rewarded by being adopted as Tuans son and heir to the house of Kai. I have always HATED this retcon because it didnt even try to explain away those earlier statements which established that Wendell was Tuans first-BORN son. Instead, it was just Yu-Ti telling Danny a story that we readers knew was inconsistent with previous stories. The one good thing about the retcon was that it contained a rationale for its own reversal in that Yu-Ti himself disproved some of his story with his later actions. For over twenty years I kept hoping that someone at Marvel would get around to reversing this horrible retcon. Finally, in 2005, I was able to provide enough in-story evidence to Snood of the then-Unofficial Appendix to the Handbook of the Marvel Universe website that he agreed that Wendell was a blood relative of Tuan. Success at last! 

And then IMMORTAL IRON FIST #6 introduced Wendell as an orphaned white boy in Tibet who was adopted and trained by Orson Randall. AARRGGHH! Oh well, at least it managed to discredit the Duffy retcons claim that Wendell was accidentally trapped in Kun-Lun. And recent developments have even given me some hope that Wendell will SOMEHOW turn out to be Tuans first-born son as well. 

Possible continuity goof: When Yu-Ti was telling Danny about the last convergence and how the celebration ended in disgrace for us all because of Orsons actions, he seemed to be implying those events all happened during the last convergence. Unfortunately, theres a problem. If the convergences occur every 88 years, then the last one would have been in 1919 (or 1918, if the storyline is still taking place in 2006). However, IF5 #5 showed that the attempt to strip Orson of his powers took place in 1933. Thats 14 (or 15) years after the last convergence. So, either the Grand Council of Heavens Seven Cities waited that long before trying to strip Orson of his powers and Yu-Ti simply chose his words poorly OR someone doesnt realize that 1933 is NOT 88 years before 2007. Maybe that someone has a case of Bendisitis? 



THE IMMORTAL IRON FIST #9 (cover-dated November, 2007) 
The Seven Capital Cities of Heaven part 2 

Appearances: Wendell Rand, Davos (as a young man and also as his older self, Steel Serpent), Iron Fist (Daniel Rand), blue-eyed servant girl, Crane Mother, Fat Cobra, Prince of Orphans, Luke Cage, Colleen Wing, Misty Knight 

Brief Synopsis: Many years ago in Kun-Lun, Wendell Rands only friend among the students is Davos. In present-day Kun-Lun, Danny is told by the blue-eyed servant girl that if he wants to find the secrets of Orson Rand he must lose his upcoming match. Later, during Round One of the tournament, Iron Fist battles Fat Cobra but is finally forced to yield. Afterwards, the blue-eyed servant girl guides Danny to a hidden interdimensional portal and tells Danny to seek out Orsons biographer in France. Danny arrives in the Himalayas on Earth and narrowly avoids being seen by Luke, Misty and Colleen. 

Detailed Synopsis: 
Page 1 is a recap/title/credits page that doesnt provide any new information. 

Pages 2-4: Many years ago in Kun-Lun, Wendells martial arts training is hampered by his memory of Orsons doubts about him and Davos forces him to yield. Later, as his only friend among the students, Davos encourages Wendell. 

Pages 5-8: In the present, Danny catches the blue-eyed servant girl spying on him. She briefly fights him (although teaching a woman to fight is forbidden in Kun-Lun) with a style that reveals that her master is someone he knows. She then tells him that to find the secrets of Orson Randall he must lose the upcoming match so that he wont be missed when he secretly returns to Earth. 

Pages 9-14: The next day in the Heart of Heaven, Iron Fist battles Fat Cobra in Round One of the tournament. During the battle they appear in Hong Kong where Fat Cobra forces Danny to yield and both return to the Heart of heaven. 

Pages 15-17: In the past, Wendell defeats Davos in their next match by mercilessly beating him unconscious when Davos refuses to yield. Despite this, the two become even closer friends. 

Pages 18-20: After Danny heals himself the blue-eyed servant girl appears and leads him through hidden passages to a machine that uses science to create an interdimensional portal to Earth. The girl reveals that it was built by her grandfather, Phineas Randall, and that she has been sentenced to man it as punishment for the crimes of her father, Orson, who never knew her. The girl then tells Danny to seek out her fathers biographer, Ernst Erskine (a.k.a. Lucky Pierre), who knows her fathers whole life story and all the secrets that Yu-Ti has kept from Danny. She urges him to hurry because Erskine will soon die (since the now-dead Orson was somehow keeping him alive) and because being defeated can only excuse Dannys absence from the tournament for so long. 

Pages 21-23: Danny arrives back on Earth in a village in the Himalayas and narrowly avoids being seen by Luke, Misty and Colleen who are there looking for Jeryn Hogarth and Xao because the village is one of the proposed construction sites for the railway Xao is forcing RandCorp to build. Danny heads off to find Erskine and save two worlds. 

References: 
Wendell Rands time in Kun-Lun is described as occurring many years ago. There is no mention of how much time passes between his two matches with Davos. 

Dannys first scene in the Kun-Lun part of the Heart of Heaven takes place on the first night of the tournament (after the exhibition match depicted in IF5 #8). His battle with Fat Cobra takes place on the following night. And it is daytime in the Himalayas when he arrives on Earth. 

Fat Cobra boasts that the Iron Fists streak will be broken at long last! This implies that the champion(s) of Kun-Lun have been winning the tournament for quite some time (possibly for centuries). 


Flashback #1 (page 3, panel 2): 
Wendell Rand, Orson Randall 

This is just a one-panel flashback of Wendell remembering Orson teaching him a particular move. Since Wendell looks to be an adult, this scene probably took place shortly before he told Orson that he was going to find Kun-Lun when it next appeared on Earth (as shown in IF5 #6). 


Interesting facts: 
In the past, Davos states that both his father (The Thunderer) and Tuan like Wendell. This confirms that Lord Tuan is the Yu-Ti during Wendells time in Kun-Lun (as first revealed in M/TU 64-FB). 

The first name of Orson Randalls father is revealed to be Phineas. 

Orson called his biographer Lucky Pierre but his real name was Ernst Erskine. Hes the L.P. who appeared in IF5 #6. 

The blue-eyed servant girl is Orsons daughter and her mother is presumably the blue-eyed ex-wife who once tried to kill Orson (as mentioned in IF5 #6). 

Everyone who is defeated in the tournament will fight one more time in a battle royale to decide the Defeated Contender who will then fight the Undefeated Contender to determine the champion of the tournament. 


THE IMMORTAL IRON FIST ANNUAL #1 (cover-dated November, 2007) 
Men of a Certain Deadly Persuasion (a story of the Immortal Iron Fist) 

Appearances: Daniel Rand (Iron Fist), Ernst Erskine (aka Lucky Pierre, aka L.P.), HYDRA Assassination Squad (none named), killer nurse (unnamed, dies), Seamus Chores MacGillicuddy, Contessa Vera Vidal 

Brief Synopsis: Back on Earth, Danny Rand arrives at a villa in the south of France where he meets with Ernst Erskine. The two spend the day talking over drinks and Erskine tells Danny about three of the adventures he and Orson experienced over their years together. Danny then reveals that Xaos minions have found them and that hes been poisoned all day long by Erskines nurse but the chi of Shou-Lao has burned the last of the poison out of his system. Danny then prevents a HYDRA Assassination Squad from shooting Erskine and then defeats the whole squad while Erskine kills the nurse who was trying to kill one of his old friends. Erskine then leaves Danny alone in his library dedicated to the life and times of Orson Randall. 

Detailed Synopsis: 
Page 1 is a recap page that provides a concise summary of how Danny got to this point but contains no new information. 

Pages 2-6: Danny Rand arrives at a villa in the south of France that isnt on any map and is greeted by Ernst Erskine (as the HYDRA agents spying on the villa confirm Dannys identity). As they sit down for tea, Erskine begins to tell Danny about how his and Orsons days first became numbered. 

Pages 15-16: Danny and Erskine share some wine (poisoned by the nurse) before Erskine begins telling a second adventure he shared with Orson and some fellow misfits in New York City. 

Pages 23-24: Erskine reveals that the Rand family fortune was the Randall family fortune which Wendell, as Orsons ward, inherited after Orsons final disappearance. Over coffee, Erskine begins to explain where Orsons fathers wealth came from. 

Pages 31-37: After Erskine reveals that Orson had granted him and their friends a very long life, Danny reveals that Xaos minions are with them now in the form of Erskines nurse (who had been poisoning him all day long) and the HYDRA Assassination Squad outside. After Danny saves Erskine (by catching a bullet aimed at him), he confronts the would-be killers and quickly defeats them, and then reenters the villa to find the nurse dead, shot by Erskine as she tried to smother another of Orsons VERY old friends. Erskine then escorts Danny to the library filled with everything he ever wrote about Orson Randalls life. As Danny immerses himself in the pages, Erskine reads the story of Orson Randall and the Axis Automatons to his bed-ridden old friends. 


References: 
Since Danny mentions that he has been poisoned all day long by Erskines nurse, he probably spends most of a day at Erskinee villa, and it probably took him at least one day to get to France from the Himalayas (where he arrived back on Earth in IF5 #9). 

Erskine mentions that he and the other residents of the villa have begun falling apart in these last few weeks. Since all the residents are very old and it was Orsons power that was keeping them alive, this implies that Orsons death (in IF5 #6) took place a few weeks ago. 


Flashback #1 (pages 7-14): 
Orson Randall (Iron Fist), Ernst Erskine (L.P.), the three Lightning Lords of Nepal (also in their combined form as Super Lightning Lord), the Bride of Nine Spiders 

In Nepal (in 1928), Orson Randall and L.P. encounter the three Lightning Lords of Nepal (whose father Orson killed) in the Adventurers Club. When the Lords try to kill them, Orson easily knocks them down with just his martial arts but they recover more quickly than he expected and get him in a vulnerable position. Before they can unfurl their Flag of Many Agonies around him, their mistress, the Bride of Nine Spiders, appears and stops them. She informs Orson that there is a bounty upon him and offers him the choice of surrender or combat with her. When Orson declines her offer of combat (as he did earlier in the Heart of Heaven), she declares him a coward and orders the Lightning Lords to destroy him. The trio merges to form Super Lightning Lord and a surprised Orson survives the first lightning bolt they direct at him but he only escapes with the aid of L.P. on horseback. 

Orsons mention of how he refused to fight the Bride of Nine Spiders in the Heart of Heaven confirms that the last heavenly convergence took place before 1928. 

The Brides mention of the bounty upon Orson is a bit confusing. If it was because of Orsons killing of the champion of Kun-Zi, then issue #5 was wrong when it showed that death to have occurred in 1933. On the other hand, if the champion of Kun-Zi truly was not killed until 1933, then what was the reason for the bounty? Was it something that the rulers of the Seven Capital Cities of Heaven did before they (in 1933) decided to strip Orson of his powers? Or was it for some other crime that Orson had committed and the Immortal Weapons were just taking advantage of it to justify hunting Orson down? 

This flashback takes place after L.P. (as the unnamed writer) first meets Orson in Paris in 1926 (in IF5 #3) but before L.P. and Orson first meet the young orphan named Wendell at the Adventurers Club many years ago (in IF5 #6). 

One of the three Lightning Lords in this flashback is the last Lightning Lord who died in IF5 #6. By the time of his death, his two brothers had already forfeited their lives to Orson. 


Flashback #2 (pages 17-22): 
Orson Randall (Iron Fist), the nine-fold Daughters of Xao (a.k.a. the Harem Harlots of Harlem), the Confederates of the Curious (Seamus Chores MacGillicuddy, Wendell, Shadu the Shady, Ernst Erskine (L.P.), Barko (a dog), Contessa Vera Vidal) 

In Harlem in New York City (many years ago), Orson Randall jumps across rooftops while running from the nine-fold daughters of Xao (a.k.a. the Harem Harlots of Harlem). After running out rooftop, Orson is saved by the arrival of an airship (piloted by his fifteen-year-old ward, Wendell) carrying most of the Confederates of the Curious. After Contessa Vera Vidal removes her harlot disguise and opens fire on Harlots with a machinegun, and Chores, Shadu and Barko fight other Harlots, Wendell shoots the head Harlot before she can shoot Orson in the back. After Shadu recovers Orsons last will and testament from the head Harlots body, the whole group leaves on the airship before the Harlots can reload. 

The head Harlot seeks vengeance on Orson Randall for (her) grandfather Xao, the Lightning Lord of Nepal. This probably means that Xao was the father of the three Lightning Lords of Nepal from the first flashback but it could also be that one of those three was Xao. 

Orsons mention of Drinks at Jack and Charlies 21 places this adventure after 1929 (when Jack and Charlies 21 opened). Also, if it takes place during the Prohibition era, then it would have to be before 1934 but theres no real evidence that Prohibition was still in effect. 

This flashback takes place after Orson first meets Wendell (in IF5 #6) but before Wendell told Orson that he was going to find Kun-Lun when it next appeared on Earth (also in IF5 #6). The one-panel flashback in IF5 #9 could take place either before or after this flashback. 


Flashback #3 (pages 25-30): 
Orson Randall (Iron Fist), Ernst Erskine (aka Lucky Pierre, aka L.P.), several HYDRA agents (unnamed, working for Xao), Wu-An (heir apparent to the throne of Kun-Lun) 

In Manchuria (in 1963), Orson Randall and Ernst Erskine are on top of a train trying to save Erskine (who is dying from tuberculosis) by freezing the disease out of his lungs. Orson prevents Ernst from committing suicide and then they are attacked by a group of costumed HYDRA agents who are also working for Xao. After killing Xaos new costumed freaks and finding a coin from Kun-Lun on one of them, Orson and Ernst travel to a village whose elders do some trade with Kun-Lun every few decades. Once there, Orson spots Wu-An, the heir apparent to the throne of Kun-Lun, in the village. Since it should be impossible for him to be on Earth at that time, Orson and Ernst investigate and find a portal between Earth and Kun-Lun that was built by Orsons father. Orson realizes that his father had had a way back for years but he had left Orson there. He also believes that Wu-An must have showered his father with treasure to keep the portal a secret. When two more HYDRA agents discover the secret path from Earth to Kun-Lun, Orson kills them both and then he and Ernst flee from the village. 

If this 1963 adventure takes place during the period that Wendell spent in Kun-Lun, then Wu-An would be the son of Lord Tuan who was Yu-Ti at that time. This would mean that Wu-An is the name of the current Yu-Ti, who is Tuans (second) son and successor. If so, that would mean that, after over THIRTY YEARS, the current Yu-Ti FINALLY HAS A REAL NAME!!! 


Timeline  Aside from the indeterminate time (at least one day) that Danny is in Kun-Lun before his first appearance in IF5 8, everything that happens in IF5 #8-9 and IF@ 1 seems to take place over the course of at least four days. 

DAY ONE 
daytime in Kun-Lun and in the Himalayas: IF5 8 
night in the Heart of Heaven: IF5 8 + IF5 9 (pages 5-8) 

DAY TWO 
day (then night?) in the Heart of Heaven (and in Hong Kong?): IF5 9 

DAY THREE 
day in the Himalayan village: IF5 9 (pages 21-23) 

DAY FOUR 
day in France: IF@ 1 


According to Paul Bourcier, the first story arc seems to fit nicely between the appearance of Cage and Iron Fist at T'Challa's and Ororo's wedding in BP4 18 and their appearance (with Danny resuming the guise of DD) in A4 23 (21). If that still holds, then this current storyline MUST occur in that period as well. Does it fit? 


Character Listings: 
Dog Brother #1, Spider-Mistress, Tigers Beautiful Daughter, Shadu the Shady and Barko have only appeared once so far and thus dont qualify for inclusion in the MCP. The blue-eyed servant girl cant be included because her name hasnt been revealed yet. 

Since IMMORTAL IRON FIST ANNUAL #1 is the first ever Iron Fist Annual, Im using the code IF@ 1 for it (instead of IF5@1 or IIF@ 1). If thats wrong, please let me know. 


BRIDE OF NINE SPIDERS 
IF@ 1-FB 
{IF5 8} 


CAGE, LUKE/CARL LUCAS 
(start of Civil War) 
IF5 2 
IF5 5 
IF5 6 
IF5 9 
. . . . 


COUNTESSA VERA VIDAL 
{IF@ 1-FB} 
IF@ 1 


CRANE MOTHER of KUN-ZI 
IF5 5 (1933) 
{IF5 1} 
IF5 4 
IF5 8 
IF5 9 


ERSKINE, ERNST/LUCKY PIERRE/L.P. 
{IF5 3 (1926)} 
IF@ 1-FB (1928) 
IF5 6 
IF@ 1-FB (Harlem) 
IF@ 1-FB (1963) 
IF@ 1 


FAT COBRA 
{IF5 8} 
IF5 9 


HOGARTH, JERYN 
FF3 35 
. . . . . 
CW/CS 1/3 (voice only, possibly recorded) 
IF5 1-FB 
IF5 2 
IF5 3 
IF5 5-FB (receives phone call about mother) 
IF5 4 (working with Xao) 
IF5 5 
IF5 6 
IF5 8 
. . . . . 
New Avengers #29-FB (p. 14-21) 


IRON FIST/DANIEL RAND-KAI 
. . . 
DD2 87 
Civil War begins 
CW/CS 1/3-FB 
CW/CS 1/3 
IF5 1-FB 
IF5 1 
IF5 2 
IF5 3 
IF5 4 
IF5 5 
IF5 6 
IF5 8 
IF5 9 
IF@ 1 
Seven Capital Cities of Heaven arc continues 
Civil War continues 
New Avengers 


IRON FIST-1915/ORSON RANDALL 
IF5 4-FB (pre-birth arrival in Kun-Lun) 
IF5 4-FB (training under Lei Kung, becoming the Iron Fist, leaving Kun-Lun) 
IF5 2-FB (1916) 
IF5 4-FB (fighting in WWI)  may be before and/or after IF5 2-FB 
IF5 3 (1926) 
IF5 4-FB (returning to Kun-Lun) 
IF@ 1-FB (1928) 
IF5 5-FB (1933) 
IF5 4-FB (fleeing Kun-Lun) 
IF5 6 (first meets Wendell in Nepal) 
IF@ 1-FB (with 15-year-old Wendell in Harlem) 
IF5 9-FB (training Wendell) 
IF5 6 (warns Wendell not to go to Kun-Lun) 
IF@ 1-FB (1963) 
{IF5 1} 
IF5 2 
IF5 3 
IF5 4 
IF5 5 
IF5 6 


KNIGHT, MISTY 
. . . . . 
HFH2 1 
. . . . . 
IF5 5 
IF5 6 
IF5 9 


LEI KUNG, THE THUNDERER 
. . . . 
M/PRM 22-FB (centuries ago) 
IF5 7-FB (16th Century) 
IF5 7 
IF5 4-FB (3 different scenes with Orson Randall over at least 20/30 years in the early 20th Century) 
M/TU 64-FB (trained his son, Davos) 
IF5 8 (first met Wendell Rand) 
. . . . 
IF2 1 
IF2 2 
IF5 6 
IF5 8 


MACGILLICUDDY, SEAMUS/CHORES 
{IF@ 1-FB} 
IF@ 1 


PRINCE OF ORPHANS 
{IF5 8} 
IF5 9 


RAND-KAI, WENDELL 
IF5 6 (first meets Orson in Nepal) 
IF@ 1-FB (15-year-old Wendell in Harlem) 
IF5 9-FB (being trained by Orson) 
IF5 6 (warned by Orson not to go to Kun-Lun) 
IF5 8 
IF5 9 
. . . . 
M/TU 64-FB 
(some flashbacks from first IF series should go here) 
{M/PRM 15-FB} 
IF2 2 


STEEL SERPENT II/DAVOS 
M/TU 64-FB 
IF5 8 
IF5 9 
M/TU 64-FB 
{IF 1} 
IF 15 
M/TU 63 
M/TU 64 
IF2 1-FB 
IF2 1 
IF2 2 
NW2 5 
IF5 4-FB 
IF5 1 
IF5 3 
IF5 4 
IF5 5 
IF5 6 
IF5 8 
IF5 9 


WING, COLLEEN 
. . . . 
HFH2 1 
. . . . 
IF5 5 
IF5 6 
IF5 9 
. . . . 


Mr. XAO 
{IF5 1-FB} 
IF5 3 
IF5 4 
IF5 8 



YU-TI/LORD TUAN 
. . . . 
IF5 5 (1933) 
IF5 8 (first meets Wendell) 
M/TU 64-FB 
. . . . 


YU-TI (Tuans son, Wu-An?) 
. . . . 
IFW 4 
IF5 6 
IF5 8 
IF5 9 


Thats it so far. Since it looks like the current storyline will not end before issue #14, Ill wait to analyze the last five issues in one group in February. 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Oct 25, 2007 6:14 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Don wrote: 
According to Paul Bourcier, the first story arc seems to fit nicely between the appearance of Cage and Iron Fist at T'Challa's and Ororo's wedding in BP4 18 and their appearance (with Danny resuming the guise of DD) in A4 23 (21). If that still holds, then this current storyline MUST occur in that period as well. Does it fit? 

Not if that reference to a "few weeks" is accurate and indeed refers to the span of time between IF5 6 and IF@ 1. If issue #8 picks up very soon after issue #6, the span of time from IF5 8 through IF@ 1 still fits.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 28, 2007 4:17 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

It appears that this entire series should occur without interruptions in Danny Rand's chronology, and that it all occurs during the Civil War, while Danny was playing DD. The primary clue is Cage's reference (via newspaper) to the Heroes for Hire working for pro-registration in issue #2. That places IF5 2 between HFH2 1 and Cage's appearance in HFH2 2, which occurs just after Goliath's death, and from there we start tying into a lot of CW chronology. 

With tight chronology in this part of the calendar, that "few weeks" reference is problematic unless it can be interpreted a different way. For now, I'm squeezing this time down to a week and the construction of 200 km of maglev track down to a few days. Urg. 

I've tried reshuffling things, but have come up with obstacles with every attempt to insert a longer period for all of IF5/IF@ into a slot between CW appearances by Danny as DD. I'm assuming we'll need to allow room for the rest of the IF5 series as well. If so, it looks like IF5 gets the prize for being the current series set in the earliest point in the calendar. S-H4 gets the prize for being the latest. 10 months between them (at least for now).Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 28, 2007 6:52 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Well, the book's well above the cancellation point and selling solidly. There's absolutely no reason why it shouldn't make #24 and beyond without it either going unexpectedly into freefall, or it being "Cable and Deadpooled" and nuked by events in other "more important" books (like Bendis killing IF off in New Avengers/Secret Invasion, that sort of thing). And, somehow, I don't forsee a ten month+ gap opening up soon. There's going to come a (probably Secret Invasion-related) point where keeping it in the CW timeframe is going to become untenable.

			*	*	*

Oct 29, 2007 12:57 am 
By DonCampbell

Paul Bourcier wrote:
Don wrote:
According to Paul Bourcier, the first story arc seems to fit nicely between the appearance of Cage and Iron Fist at T'Challa's and Ororo's wedding in BP4 18 and their appearance (with Danny resuming the guise of DD) in A4 23 (21). If that still holds, then this current storyline MUST occur in that period as well. Does it fit? 

Not if that reference to a "few weeks" is accurate and indeed refers to the span of time between IF5 6 and IF@ 1. If issue #8 picks up very soon after issue #6, the span of time from IF5 8 through IF@ 1 still fits.

Just to clarify the amount of time that has elapsed during the last few issues: 

IF5 4 - construction of the maglev track has not yet begun 
IF5 6 - less than 24 hours later - Orson dies, Jeryn is kidnapped and Danny goes to K'un-Lun 
IF5 8 - Danny doesn't know how long he's been in K'un-Lun (but it's been at least a day). In the Himalayas, a lot of work on at least one trestle has already been done and Jeryn is there supervising the construction 
IF@ 1 - three days later - Orson's very old friends have begun falling apart "in these past few weeks" and one of them died "earlier this week." Since it was established that Orson was somehow keeping them alive, that strongly suggests that Orson died about 2-3 weeks ago. 

Since I have no idea how long it would take to build a trestle like that in mountainous terrain, I'm inclined to accept the idea that a "few weeks" must have elapsed between IF5 6 & IF@ 1. I don't see any way to avoid it. Sorry. 

By the way, in New Avengers #34 Danny tells Dr. Strange that "recently" he had some trouble with another person using the Iron Fist. That, plus the fact that Jeryn appeared alive and well in a flashback in New Avengers #29, would seem to make it certain that ALL of the first two IF5 storylines and the annual occur before the New Avengers go to Japan and discover that Elektra's a Skrull. 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Oct 29, 2007 6:10 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I was hoping to put this series between the end of the Civil War and the formation of the new, post-CW New Avengers. That would have been squarely after Danny was playing DD. I think the only thing preventing us from doing that is the timing of the start of HFH2 and the Cage tie-in. 

I'll keep investigating another spot within CW. Too bad there isn't a spot to put a gap within IF5 for Danny to go back to playing DD and wrap up CW.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 30, 2007 8:54 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay. It's a bit of a strain to have Danny dress up as DD in the middle of this series, BUT... 

Is it feasible for Danny to appear as Iron Fist at T'Challa's and Ororo's wedding in BP4 18 during the gap between IF5 6 and IF5 8?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Oct 30, 2007 11:15 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Is it feasible for Danny to appear as Iron Fist at T'Challa's and Ororo's wedding in BP4 18 during the gap between IF5 6 and IF5 8?
<<<

Nope. Danny leaves for the mystical city at the end of 6 and is still there at the start of 8. Since time moves differently in K'un-Lun, from Danny's perspective he's only been there shortly. But 'here' a few weeks have passed. The whole point of him leaving at the end of 6 is that the tournament is starting really soon, and Danny doesn't have time to do anything before leaving. So he leaves, and 8 picks up from there.(from Danny's perspective) 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
I was hoping to put this series between the end of the Civil War and the formation of the new, post-CW New Avengers. That would have been squarely after Danny was playing DD. I think the only thing preventing us from doing that is the timing of the start of HFH2 and the Cage tie-in. 
<<<

Given the 'recently' reference in New Avengers 34 and the 'I'm Iron Fist again' at the start of the series, it may be best to ignore Danny's surprise at Misty's registration stance and go with that. Maybe they were looking at an old newspaper and he was reiterating his surprise for the sake of conversation? Or something? 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Oct 31, 2007 5:47 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Given the 'recently' reference in New Avengers 34 and the 'I'm Iron Fist again' at the start of the series, it may be best to ignore Danny's surprise at Misty's registration stance and go with that. Maybe they were looking at an old newspaper and he was reiterating his surprise for the sake of conversation? Or something? 
<<<

I misspoke. It wasn't a newspaper that Cage showed to Danny; it was a recruitment flier for Heroes for Hire. Luke is upset that Misty and Colleen are working for the pro-registration forces. I re-checked HFH2 2-3 and confirmed that IF5 2 has to occur before HFH2 2; in HFH2 2-3, it's clear to Cage and everyone else that Misty, Colleen, and company are rebelling against following Stark's orders.


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Nope. Danny leaves for the mystical city at the end of 6 and is still there at the start of 8. Since time moves differently in K'un-Lun, from Danny's perspective he's only been there shortly. But 'here' a few weeks have passed. The whole point of him leaving at the end of 6 is that the tournament is starting really soon, and Danny doesn't have time to do anything before leaving. 
<<<

So...no chance of Danny taking a few hours off to attend the wedding of a friend (assuming he could mystically go from K'un L'un to Wakanda and back instantly)?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 01, 2007 3:06 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
So...no chance of Danny taking a few hours off to attend the wedding of a friend (assuming he could mystically go from K'un L'un to Wakanda and back instantly)?
<<<

Since he wasn't given the option of doing anything but leaving for K'un-L'un immediately, I'd say no. The entire reason he's the Iron Fist is to fight in this tournament, it's starting now, he doesn't have the option. 

Also, he doesn't have the ability to leave K'un-L'un on his own until IF5 9, which is a giant machine built by his father that no one but the mysterious lady knows about. He uses it to get to the Annual, which leads right into IF5 10-14. I really, really don't see Danny taking the time to go to a wedding or finish up Civil War here, before heading back to the tournament that he exists to fight in.(even if he did, I think that theory would be thrown out the window in IF5 14 or 15, when Danny finally returns and his supporting cast(and by extension Cage) says something to the effect of 'I haven't seen you since issue 6!' Cage & co. have been looking for Danny in issue 9 since issue 6, and they'll likely keep at it until he returns. If the wedding appearance did go between IF5 6 & 8, why would Cage still be looking for him in IF5 9? He wouldn't be, that's why.  ) 

I think we're down to a point where we have to ignore or reinterpret the least damaging reference: 
1. IF5 1-9, IF@1, & IF5 10-14 are a continuous chain of events for Danny. There are no readily available continuity breaks and the urgency of the plot is lost by attempting to insert any. 

2. Misty's pro-registration stance, suggesting this is during Civil War. This is what puts Danny in the mood he's in in issue 2, but aside from that it doesn't affect anything, and by issue 5, 6, & 9 it's been dropped.(or they stopped making mention of it, possibly because it was discovered to cause problems) 

3. 'I'm Iron Fist again, and done covering for Matt'(paraphrased), suggesting this is after Civil War.(and before the current New Avengers arc) If Danny were to go back to impersonating Daredevil again after this arc it would be anti-climactic for his character and damaging to the overall plot.(Unless, of course, IF5 14 or 15 show him suiting back up as Daredevil to finish Civil War... but I seriously doubt that will happen)
I'm willing to minimize the Misty reference. By the time Civil War has wrapped up both Danny & Cage are with the anti-registration side, while the Heroes for Hire are still, at least occasionally, taking jobs from the pro-registration side. That could be what they're upset about, that she's even working with/for Stark's S.H.I.E.L.D. at all.('I can't beleive she's on his side'... and that's an old flier) It may not be the cleanest solution, but I think it's the least damaging, Danny's comment about Misty being a narc aside. 

Thoughts?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 01, 2007 9:35 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hey, Fury. Thanks for making the case that the entirety of IF5 1-14 and IF@ 1 should not be interrupted. It seems to me that the best spot, generally speaking and certainly from Danny's perspective, is between the end of the Civil War and his appearance with the New Avengers, which I figure as a four-week gap. 

But that Heroes For Hire reference in issue #2 is nagging me. Don wrote the following summary: 
"On page 9, Luke shows Danny a flyer put out by the new pro-registration Heroes For Hire team of which Misty Knight is a member. This is the first time that Danny learns that Misty is on the pro-registration side." 

Could someone provide a more detailed breakdown of the conversation and the flyer? I'd like to go with Fury's suggestion of reinterpreting the scene, but I need to know what is actually presented. 

It's still not clean, as Fury pointed out, as it seems that the series when it started was meant to occur during Civil War. With this new interpretation, we have this sequence: 

Cage encounters Misty, Colleen, and the rest of the Heroes for Hire, then Cage is present with Danny as the new DD in a number of CW-related issues but doesn't clue Danny in about Misty (does Cage know Danny is DD?) and Danny remains woefully ignorant about Misty's activities until after CW is done. When Danny finally learns in IF5 2, I think it's during a gap between pages 3 and 4 of HFH2 4. Heroes for Hire is still relatively new but probably not recruiting new members (unless they're trying to replace Paladin BTS). Perhaps Cage uses an old flyer to make his point, as Fury suggests? Details of the scene would be great. Thanks!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 01, 2007 10:21 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Hey, Fury.
<<<

Hey, Paul! 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Could someone provide a more detailed breakdown of the conversation and the flyer? 
<<<

Sure:

While chatting about the good old days over dinner, Cage says "Everything's different now. Never used to be afraid to be a good guy before." 
To which Danny replies "It's hard to tell who the good guys even are these days." (bold type was Danny's, not mine) 
Cage says "Speaking of that... you talk to Misty lately?" 
Danny "Why? What has she done?"
Cage "You need to see this."(as he pulls a flier out of his pocket) "I suspect this is one of those things like pulling off a band-aid... or setting a broken bone..."(as he hands the folded flier to Danny) 
Danny "No way. No way!"(as he looks at the flier)
Cage "yeah. They're workin' freelance for the man." 
Danny, after some thought "I just-- she-- I can't believe she's on his side." 

The flier has a group shot of the Heroes for Hire and says 'Registration is the law! Be a hero! Call Now!(and a phone number) 

Later, while Danny is working out, he thinks to himself "I can't believe Misty's a narc now... I should hit her with a cease-and-desist for using the Heroes for Hire name..." And then Jeryn walks in. By the time Misty shows up in issues 5 & 6, the closest we get to a mention of this is Danny saying to Misty 'The choice couldn't have been easy..'(to help Iron Fist) There wasn't time for Misty to really respond before Danny leaves for K'un L'un. 

Given that it's 'hard to tell who the good guys are', that's the status quo post-Civil War. Misty working freelance for Stark's S.H.I.E.L.D., well, she's still doing that post-Civil War. Is post-Civil War the first Danny's heard about it? That's a stretch... but the way Cage presents it? Probably not. He felt it needed to be a quick reveal, even if she's only working freelance. And since there are still unregistered superhumans around post-Civil War, I would think the Heroes For Hire would still be taking freelance assignments to bring some of them in. Cage & Danny still wouldn't be happy about that, since they're both anti-resigstration. The 'choice being hard for Misty' bit in this case would be to choose to help an unregistered superhuman and to not turn them in, I guess.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
does Cage know Danny is DD?
<<<

I want to say that he did in the White Tiger mini... 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Thanks!
<<<

No problem! And man, 2300 posts... that's something!

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 02, 2007 6:22 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Fury! 

As I noted, I would place IF5 between pages 3 and 4 of HFH2 4, a span of time in which the Civil War ends, Heroes For Hire is still rebuilding after the destruction of the Golden Dragon, and Misty and company is investigating the Skrull organ transplants. It's not a stretch to think of that mission as taking a while and not occupying all of HFH's time. It's also not a stretch to think of HFH taking more pro-registration assignments during this time to make much-needed money. (In fact, Tarantula states near the end of HFH2 3, "can we go beat on someone big, crazy and too dumb to register?") When Cage last saw Misty, she was concerned with bringing the CW to a peaceful resolution and HFH left he and Cap on friendly terms; Cage may have interpreted this as a hope that she would abandon hunting down non-registered superhumans. HFH kept a low profile for the remainder of CW, but once it was done, Misty decided to take on new bounty hunting gigs for Stark, with whom she was still on good terms. It is HFH's post-CW re-emergence as pro-registration enforcers that has Cage upset in IF5 2. The flier? Cage could have used an old flier for effect in cluing Danny in on the news, or Misty could have been recruiting just after CW, just not successfully (as we don't see new members after this). 

Any other thoughts?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 03, 2007 9:24 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Assuming the above rationalization holds, I have the following sequence for Danny Rand: 

CIVIL WAR: CHOOSING SIDES #1/3 
Danny recalls his vow to Matt Murdock and resolves to keep fighting the Civil War as Daredevil. Foggy leaves him a phone message about a big thing coming up next week" abount Rand and China, a reference to IF5 1, so this is very near the end of Civil War. 

CIVIL WAR #5 (18-22) 
Danny is captured by Reed and She-Hulk and taken to the Negative Zone prison. 

CIVIL WAR #6 
Danny is among the inmates freed by the Resistance. 

CIVIL WAR #7 
Civil War ends. 

IRON FIST v5 #1 
A "week" after CW:CS 1/3. 

IRON FIST v5 #2-7 
IRN FIST ANNUAL #1 
IRON FIST v5 #9-14 

NEW AVENGERS #28 -- FB 
Danny is with the New Avengers.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Subject: Moon Knight 13

Nov 04, 2007 2:01 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks to daylight savings time, I had an extra hour, so 

Moon Knight #13! 
Published: December, 2007 

Appearances: 
Moon Knight(Marc Spector), Lt. Flint-FB, Frenchie(Jean-Paul Duchamp), Frenchies boyfriend-FB, Marlene Alraune, Marlenes boyfriend, Ray, Rays mom-FB-BTS, Profile-FB, Dr. Depford-FB, Iron Man(Tony Stark)-VO? 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: one night, full moon 
Moon Knight hallucinates a conversation between him and a disfigured Iron Man, then jumps off the roof of the building he's on. 
Pg4-pg32-FB: earlier that day 
Lt. Flint talks to a guy whos been attacked by Moon Knight. He has a moon carved into his forehead, so Flint shows him pictures of at least twelve other guys who have also had moon carved into their foreheads, some more than once. Elsewhere, Frenchie wakes up and goes for a walk. Elsewhere, Marlene and her boyfriend walk around after a date and are attacked by muggers. Marlene goes crazy and beats the hell out of the muggers, using her keys as weapons. At Moon Knights base Ray talks on the phone with his mom. Eventually Frenchie shows up and they chat. Elsewhere, Marc Spector and Profile stake out a Registration office and Profile learns some secrets about the interviewing psychiatrist. Marc goes in for his registration interview, pretends that some of his aliases are actually a multiple personality disorder, then acts like hes possessed by Khonshu and tells Dr. Depford some secrets he couldnt know about, fooling him into registering him as Moon Knight. 
Pg33-pg42: continued from pg1-pg3 
Moon Knight beats the crap out of some guys in a car, kills them, and carves moons in their foreheads while listening to S.H.I.E.L.D. director Stark talk about the registration act on the radio. Back at Moon Knights base Ray and Frenchie continue to chat. Elsewhere, Marlene and her boyfriend clean up. 

References: 
All in one night with a full moon. 

Rays on the phone with his mom, but we dont hear her voice, giving her a BTS, if she ever gets a listing. 

While Moon Knight is beating the crap out of the guys on pg33, the radio is playing a recording of Tony Stark talking about the enforcement of the registration act. Since its a recording made earlier, and we dont see him I know its a voice over, but is it a FB-VO? Or just a VO? Or anything at all? We havent heard this before, so its new Am I overthinking this? Just VO, right? 

Tony Stark is already Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. here, so this is post-Civil War. 

Its been long enough since last issue for Moon Knight to attack at least thirteen guys and carve moons into their foreheads. Fun!

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 04, 2007 3:18 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Fury! I put this during a full moon between the appointment of Stark as SHIELD director and World War Hulk...more specifically between Stark's appearances in CW:FL 11 (15-24) and FF 544-FB.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Subject: Daredevil 95-100

Nov 05, 2007 12:21 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Daredevil #95 
Published: May, 2007 

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Gladiator(Melvin Potter), Milla Donovan, Foggy Nelson, Becky Blake, Gus, Mr. Fear(Cranston)-BTS 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: one night 
At Rikers, Melvin Potter is subdued. Hes been found in the workshop with two dead bodies, both of which have been killed by buzzsaws. Meanwhile in Hells Kitchen, Daredevil attacks some robbers. 
Pg4-pg5-FB: last night 
Some robbers hit a liquor store, the owner tries to fight back, and the robbers beat him into a coma. 
Pg6-pg10: continued from pg1-pg3 
Daredevil fights the robbers, but they kill each other so they wont be caught. 
Pg11-pg22: next day 
Matt and Milla wake up, and Foggy calls to tell Matt that Melvin has gotten into trouble again. Matt refuses to take the case. Meanwhile, Becky talks to Gus, Melvins attorney, and agrees to take the case. Later, Matt, Foggy, and Becky talk about taking the case and agree to do it. Matt and Becky go to Bellevue, where Melvin tells them he didnt do it, and Matt believes him. That night, Milla is spied on and Melvin kills a guy at Bellevue, claiming he didnt do it directly afterwards. 

References: 
The guy spying on Milla is on the phone with Mr. Fear, but hes not heard or seen, giving him a BTS. 

Long sleeve weather in New York. 

Daredevil is investigating simultaneous crimes that have popped up while he was away. This would suggest this is early in the time since hes returned, so not too long after the end of last issue. Its also noted that Iron Fist is done impersonating Daredevil. However, this begins a continuous arc that wont end until(most likely) Daredevil 105, and thanks to a reference/appearance in Daredevil 101, this arc has to take place after the current New Avengers arc, where the Hood takes over the crime world. Its a good thing issue 93 had a bunch of nebulously defined time jumps! Also, until Daredevil 105 comes out, its tough to say where the Annual fits. Its either before this issue, or after 105. Im inclined to say after 105 to preserve the feeling of Daredevil recently coming back in this issue, and to minimize the amount of time it takes Lilly to show up next issue, but if that cant work, it could fit before this issue.(but knowing Brubaker, he'll most likely tie it into the next arc) 

Oh yeah, as it turns out it's the Cranston Mr. Fear that appeared in New Avengers 35. 

Daredevil #96 
Published: June, 2007 

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Gladiator(Melvin Potter), Milla Donovan, Foggy Nelson, Becky Blake, Gus, Assistant D.A. Palmer, Lily Lucca 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: day after end of last issue 
Matt and Becky talk to Assistant DA Palmer about Melvins Bellevue killing last night, which has already made the papers. They agree that Melvin should have a psychiatric evaluation before hes sent back to Rykers. That night, daredevil stops a mugger. 
Pg6-pg12: next day 
Melvins evaluation doesnt go well, and its decided that he go back to Rykers. That evening Milla goes to her therapist, and that night Daredevil goes out on patrol. 
Pg13-pg22: next day, 6AM 
While being transferred to Rykers, Melvins transport is attacked. Daredevil tries to stop it, but when Melvin is freed he attacks Daredevil and kills some of his rescuers and runs off. Daredevil goes to work, where Lily Lucca shows up and asks for help. Meanwhile, Melvin finds his Gladiator costume waiting for him. 

Daredevil #97 
Published: June, 2007 

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Gladiator(Melvin Potter), Milla Donovan, Foggy Nelson, Dakota North, Guss body, Lily Lucca, Mr. Fear(Cranston)-VO, Turk-BTS 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3pn1-FB: four days ago 
Lilly is in a bar when a fight breaks out over her. 
Pg3pn2(of 6)-pg6: same day as end of last issue 
Lilly tells Matt & Foggy why she needs help, and Matt tells her hell hook her up with Dakota North. That night the Gladiator is picked up by two of Turks men. 
Pg7pn3, pg7pn4(of 4), pg8pn2-pg8pn3-FB 
The Gladiator goes on a rampage and kills a bunch of folks at a block party. 
Pg7pn1, pg7pn2, pg8pn1, pg8pn4(of 4)-pg10: same night as pg6, pg7pn3-FB, etc 
Daredevil shows up after Gladiator is done and gone, then goes to Gus apartment to see if he knows anything, but finds that Gus has killed himself. 
Pg11-pg22: next day 
Matt introduces Dakota to Lily, then has dinner with Milla. Gladiator attacks, Matt sends Milla home, then fights Gladiator as Daredevil and is knocked out. When he wakes up in a police car hes contacted by Mr. Fear, who tells him what Gladiator is up to. Meanwhile, Gladiator approaches Milla in her apartment. 

References: 
Lily says she stopped using the perfume Vanessa Fisk gave her months ago. That would put months between now and shortly after when Daredevil left Europe. 

The two guys who pick up Melvin are under recent orders from Turk, giving him a BTS. 

We hear Mr. Fears voice but dont see him, giving him a VO. 

Daredevil #98 
Published: August, 2007 

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Gladiator(Melvin Potter), Milla Donovan, Turk, Ox 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg21: same night as end of last issue 
Turk talks to Ox about Mr. Fears plans of distributing tainted drugs. Meanwhile, Gladiator beats up Milla. Meanwhile, Daredevil escapes from the police car and makes his way to his apartment but no ones there. Meanwhile, Gladiator tortures Milla. Daredevil follows Millas voice and saves her, defeating Gladiator. 
Pg22: next day 
Some robbers knock over a convenience store. 

Daredevil #99 
Published: September, 2007 

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Gladiator(Melvin Potter), Milla Donovan, Foggy Nelson, Becky Blake, Dakota North, Lily Lucca, Ox, Fancy Dan, Montana, Mr. Fear(Cranston) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: same day as end of last issue 
Matt, Foggy, and Becky check in on Melvin at Bellevue then head back to the office. Matt heads out as Daredevil to check in on some burglaries that occurred while he was being attacked last night, and Foggy checks in with Dakota and Lily when Milla pops in looking for Matt. After asking some questions around town, Daredevil makes his way to a warehouse where the tainted drugs are being distributed from. After Milla starts acting irrationally, Foggy decides to take her home, and for some reason Lily decides to tag along. At the warehouse, Daredevil is attacked by the Enforcers and drugged. At the subway, Milla tries to kill Lily by pushing her in front of a train, but she bumps into a man and he dies instead. Meanwhile, the Enforcers bring Daredevil to Mr. Fear, who reveals that he knows Milla. 

Daredevil #100 
Published: October, 2007 

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Milla Donovan, Foggy Nelson, Lily Lucca, Ox, Fancy Dan, Montana, Mr. Fear(Cranston) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg36: same day as last issue 
Milla is arrested while Foggy and Lily follow. Meanwhile, Mr. Fear and the Enforcers beat Daredevil and throw him out the window. As Daredevil makes his way across town he has a bunch of hallucinations, and eventually makes his way to Cranstons place, where he finds a man bound to a chair and wrapped in explosives. The apartment explodes, so Daredevil makes his way back to his place where Foggy tells him that Millas been arrested for murder. 

References: 
To be continued next issue! 

A quick breakdown: 

New Avengers 35(Hood & Mr. Fear appear)-end of arc 
 
DD2 93 (19-22) Lily leaves for New York 
 
DD2 94 
 
DD2 95 (4-5)-FB Day 1 
DD2 95 (1-3), (6-10) Day 2 
DD2 97 (1-3:1)-FB Day 2 Lily already in New York 
DD2 95 (11-22) Day 3 
DD2 96 (1-5) Day 4 
DD2 96 (6-12) Day 5 
DD2 96 (13-22) Day 6 
DD2 97 (3:2-6) Day 6 
DD2 97 (7:3)-FB, (7:4)-FB, (8:2-8:3)-FB Day 6 
DD2 97 (7:1), (7:2), (8:1), (8:4-10) Day 6 
DD2 97 (11-22) Day 7 
DD2 98 (1-21) Day 7 
DD2 98 (22) Day 8 
DD2 99 Day 8 
DD2 100 Day 8 
DD2 101-105

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 07, 2007 7:07 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Daredevil is investigating simultaneous crimes that have popped up while he was away. This would suggest this is early in the time since hes returned, so not too long after the end of last issue. Its also noted that Iron Fist is done impersonating Daredevil. 
<<<

There does need to be a span of time between the point Danny stopped impersonating Daredevil and this story arc. We need to allow weeks for IF5 1-14 and IF@ 1 to occur, followed by Danny's appearance in the story arc in A4 27-36. As you noted, Cranston appears in that A4 story arc, then shows up here in the DD2 95-105 story arc. 

For the time being, I've placed this DD story arc just before World War Hulk. 

Thanks for the analysis, Fury! 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Subject: Mystic Arcana: Sister Grimm

Nov 09, 2007 2:48 pm 
By JD

MYSTIC ARCANA: SISTER GRIMM #1 
Writers : (1) & (3) David Sexton, (2) C. B. Cebulski 
Artists : (1) & (3) Eric Nguyen, (2) Phil Noto 
Published in November 2007 

First Story : (untitled) (1 page) 
Appearances : Ian McNee 

Summary : Ian McNee recaps the plot and starts looking for the final item of his quest. 

Notes : 
- This is an actual story page ; there is also a full recap page preceding this. 
- Magic cards chanelling the spirits of Magik, Morgan le Fey & Nagala show up with speaking parts, but this doesn't really count as appearances, right ? 

Second Story : To try the vein (21 pages) 
Appearances : Sister Grimm/Nico Minoru, Marie LaVeau, Tina Minoru 

Summary : 
Nico is residing at "Father Flanagan's home for unwanted Goth kids" (sic RUN 18). One night, she is confronted by Marie LaVeau, who retrieved the Black Mirror from the Minorus' (thanks to their demise in RUN 17). She needs Nico's blood to deactivate a spell blocking its usage. After some fighting, Nico does so and sees her mother (from beyond the grave ? the thing messes with time, so it's difficult to say) ; she breaks it, and Marie LaVeau gets the final page of the Darkhold hidden inside. 

Flashbacks : 
- page 1, panel 1 : photo of the Minoru family : Nico, Robert and Tina. Nico looks quite young here, so I'd put it before RUN 17-FB (page 4), and after the various FBs in RUN 13 for the parents. 
- page 1, panel 2 : generic shot of the Minorus as dark wizards 
- page 1, panel 3 : generic shot of Nico summoning the Staff of One 
- page 1, panel 4 : Nico facing her parents. Judging by her clothes and the narration, it takes place somewhere in RUN 16-17, but I can't place the exact shot. Could be a countershot to RUN 17-page 15-panel 1. Anyway, not enough new information to warrant a listing. 
- page 1, panel 5 : Nico cries on a beach, following their escape in RUN 17 : I'd place this just after page 23, before Captain America actually rounds up the Runaways. 

Notes : 
- "This Story takes place between Runaways volume One, issues 17 & 18". Actually, it happens after the first three pages of RUN 18 (where the Runaways are reportedly put in foster homes, though they don't appear on panel). 
- The whole story happens in one day. 

Third Story : Return of the Sphinx, conclusion: Crossroads (10 pages) 
Appearances : Ian McNee, Marie LaVeau, Oshtur/Chthon, Morgan LeFey, Ashake, Llyra 

Summary : 
Marie Laveau gives her Darkhold page to Ian McNee as "a love letter" and leaves immediatly (because there's only a few pages to resolve the plot). Oshtur appears and reveals himself as Chthon when Ian McNee does his big spell with the help of the three sorceresses he met in the previous parts of the story. Big fight, Chthon is banished, Ian's soul is somehow tainted by the experience, and Ashake ends up stranded in the present day. 

Notes : 
- "Our quest has only begun." Well, I certainly won't be there for the sequel. 

Chronology listings : 

SISTER GRIMM/NICO MINORU 
MA:SG 1/2-FB (page 1 panel 1) 
RUN 17-FB (page 3) 
... 
RUN 17 
MA:SG 1/2-FB (page 1 panel 5) 
MA:SG 1/2 
RUN 18 
... 

MCNEE, IAN 
... 
MA:SW 1/3 
MA:SG 1 
MA:SG 1/3 

CHTHON/OSHTUR (is this the real one, or an imposter ?) 
MA:MAGIK 1 
MA:SG 1/3 

LAVEAU, MARIE 
... 
MA:SG 1/2 
[place other appearances here as needed] 
MA:SG 1/3 

ASHAKE 
MA:MAGIK 1/2 
MA:SG 1/3 

As for the other protagonists, I'm lost. The MU's magic corner is not really my forte, I only checked this out for the Runaways connection... 

Next... Daughters of the Dragon ?

			*	*	*

Nov 09, 2007 3:06 pm 
By Somebody
Director

JD wrote:
CHTHON/OSHTUR (is this the real one, or an imposter ?)
MA:MAGIK 1
MA:SG 1/3
Both (an aspect of*) Cthton-impersonating-Oshtur and the real Oshtur (on the last page) appear. "Oshtur" in the McKee part of MA:MAGIK is revealed to have been (an aspect of*) Cthton impersonating her here. (Another aspect of*) Cthton also appears in the flashback story in Mystic Arcana: Scarlet Witch, briefly possessing the young Wanda. 

*Technically, Cthton can't fully manifest in the Earth dimension, as I recall. 

I know someone who's very interested in Cthton/Darkhold-related stuff, so I'll ask him if there's anything else I should point out.

			*	*	*

Nov 09, 2007 11:57 pm 
By wolframbane

As for the Cornerstones of Creation that are being sought in the story, they were originally depicted in an old Conan story in CTB 128-130. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/crncre.htm

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Subject: Agents of ATLAS 1-6!

Nov 07, 2007 7:01 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

For the most part, Ill just be covering the current day stuff here, to be followed later with the FlashBacks. The one bit Ill point out now, though: According to Avengers Forever, What If? 9 didnt happen in Marvel-616. This series shows the events that replace that, and WI? 9 should be removed from the chronologies that still have it listed.(Gorilla-Man, Marvel Boy III, Venus II, the Human Robot, & 3-D Man II) 

All right. Are you ready? 

Agents of ATLAS #1! 
Pub: October, 2006 

Appearances: 
Jimmy Woo, Gorilla Man(Ken Hale), Human Robot(M-11), Marvel Boy III(Bob Grayson), Dum Dum Dugan, Derek Khanata, Jake Oh 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6pn3: Spring, 1958 
President Eisenhower has been kidnapped, so the FBI turns to Jimmy Woo. He assembles a team of super-humans and rescues the President from the Yellow Claw. The team will operate together for about six months, and will eventually be disbanded.(this is the bit that replaces WI? 9) 
Pg6pn4(of 4)-pg8: one day 
Ken Hale, the Gorilla Man has been brought to a S.H.I.E.L.D. base and is filled in on whats happened recently to subdirector Jimmy Woo. Dum Dum Dugan and Derek Khanata ask him about his time in Jimmys team from the late 50s and show him footage of Jimmys last mission. 
Pg9-pg10-FB: yesterday 
Jimmy Woo and his S.H.I.E.L.D. team infiltrate the ATLAS foundation, but are attacked and killed, except for Woo. 
Pg11-pg21: same day as pg8 
Ken asks to see Jimmy, whos on life support and has no higher brain functions. That night he sends a message to M-11, the Human Robot, who breaks through the wall and together they storm the base and retrieve Jimmys body. Theyre picked up by Marvel Boy and brought to his spaceship. As S.H.I.E.L.D. scrambles to figure out whats going on, Marvel Boy restores Jimmys health by resetting him to his 1959 self 

References: 
Jake Oh has also appeared in the last few issues of the Phoenix: Warsong mini, but this was published first! 

Dum Dum mentions he has to get yelled at by the Director for this mess, but that doesnt necessarily give her a BTS here. Sorry Maria! 

One of my favorite lines from the issue: 
Khanata: He(Jimmy) couldnt work with any of you ever again, at least not in an official capacity. I suppose you could open a hot dog stand together, but never work for the government. 
Gorilla Man: That would be one kick-ass hot dog stand. 

Agents of ATLAS #2! 
Published: November, 2006 

Appearances: 
Jimmy Woo, Gorilla Man(Ken Hale), Human Robot(M-11), Marvel Boy III(Bob Grayson), Venus II, Yellow Claw, Mr. Lao, Dum Dum Dugan, Derek Khanata, Mr. Fantastic(Reed Richards), KalTi 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3pn2: day after last issue 
Dum Dum and Derek chat with Mr. Fantastic about Marvel Boys history, and then go over their notes. 
Pg3pn3-FB: shortly before Nick Furys Howling Commandos #1 
Ken Hale is interviewed for a position in the Howling Commandos. 
Pg3pn4-pg3pn5: same day as pg3pn2 
Derek has contacted his cousin KalTi, whos working in Africa, to investigate the Gorilla Man. She sent a recording, which he plays for Dum Dum. 
Pg3pn6(of 6)pg4pn2-FB: earlier that day 
KalTi speaks to an elder about Ken Hale, the Gorilla Man. 
Pg4pn3-pg5-FB-FB 
The origin of the Gorilla Man! 
Pg6-pg11pn3: same day as pg3pn5 
Dum Dum informs Derek that since Jimmy is gone, a spot has opened up in the S.H.I.E.L.D. directorate, and the higher ups want him for the spot. He then makes his way to Jimmys place, to see what he can find out about Jimmys mysterious 1950s FBI team. Once he gets there he finds that Ken, Bob, M-11, and Jimmy are already there, and Jimmy is pleased that most of his clothes still fit. Jimmy introduces himself and reveals that he doesnt remember anything past 1959. 
Pg11pn4-FB: 1959 
Jimmy and Bob say their goodbyes. 
Pg11pn5(of 7)-pg17pn6(of 7): same day as pg11pn3 
Bob takes a recording of Jimmys place and they prepare to leave, but Jimmy wants to take his car along. Derek reveals he knows where Venus is, and Jimmy invites him along. Meanwhile, the Yellow Claw and Mr. Lao watch from afar. Once theyre on Bobs spaceship, Jimmy goes through a re-creation of his place looking for clues to his past, and then they all hit the sack before they arrive in Africa on their search for Venus. 
Pg17pn7-pg21: the next day 
Jimmy and co. arrive in Africa and meet KalTi, who brings them to Venus. Shes been living in this region for years, having put an end to tribal warfare in the region years ago. As reunions are made, Jimmy wanders off and is attacked by the Yellow Claw and his men! 

References: 
There are some FlashBacks to Marvel Boys Silver Age history, but its all repeated information from FF 164 & 165. 

As it turns out, Derek is married. 

One of my favorite lines from the issue: 
I was running around the subcontinent when this witchdoctor cursed me now Im a gorilla. It happens. 

Agents of ATLAS #3! 
Published: December, 2006 

Appearances: 
Jimmy Woo, Gorilla Man(Ken Hale), Human Robot(M-11), Marvel Boy III(Bob Grayson), Venus II, Namora, Yellow Claw-BTS, Dum Dum Dugan, Derek Khanata, Jake Oh, KalTi 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2pn2: same day as end of last issue 
Derek has contacted S.H.I.E.L.D. to let Dum Dum know hes alright. Meanwhile in Africa, the reunion continues. 
Pg2pn3-FB: the 1980s 
Venus arrives in Africa. 
Pg2pn4(of 4)-pg7pn3: same day as pg2pn2 
Jimmy battles the Yellow Claws men, and when the others join in, the Yellow Claw is revealed to be a robot. They decide to head for San Francisco, say their goodbyes and head off. On the way, they chat about the old days. 
Pg7pn4-FB: 1958 
Jimmy Woo decides on who will be in his team by sleeping on it! 
Pg7pn5(of 6)-pg14: same day as pg7pn3 
When they arrive in San Francisco they check out the ATLAS entrance where Jimmy lost his team. Not finding anything useful, they stop for coffee and go over their notes. M-11 runs off, stating that Namora is not most likely dead. Jimmy convinces him that it may be faster to take Bobs ship rather than walk all the way to the Arctic Circle, and on the way Bob fills them in on what hes been up to. 
Pg15-pg19pn1-FB 
What Bobs been up to! 
Pg19pn2-FB: just before issue 1 
Ken contacts Bob, tells him about Jimmys situation, and asks if he can help. 
Pg19pn3-FB: just before issue 1 
Bob leaves Uranus. 
Pg19pn4(of 5)-pg21: same day as pg14 
Jimmy and the gang arrive in the Arctic Circle and find Namoras body. 

References: 
The Yellow Claw is controlling the robot, but is not seen, giving him a BTS. Also, Yellow Claw is not the correct translation, its supposed to be Golden Claw. I seem to remember that being revealed in a John Byrne issue somewhere 

When the group is talking about Namora, Derek decides not to tell them that her daughter Namorita has died recently. None of them seem to be aware of it, and the time didnt seem right to bring it up. Namorita died at the Stamford Disaster in Civil War #1, placing this series at least after that issue, and most likely the entire series occurs during the Civil War. 

As it turns out, S. Kleefeld is an evil ATLAS online operative. What a sneaky guy! 

One of my favorite lines from the issue: 
Jimmy: Holy Cow! Are they evacuating the city? 
Ken: Nah, traffic just sucks now, Jimbo. Ill drive until you get used to it. 

Agents of ATLAS #4! 
Published: January, 2007 

Appearances: 
Jimmy Woo, Gorilla Man(Ken Hale), Human Robot(M-11), Marvel Boy III(Bob Grayson), Venus II, Namora, Yellow Claw, Derek Khanata 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg11: same day as end of last issue 
As the Yellow Claw watches from afar, M-11 begins to melt the ice around Namoras body. Sea monsters, that have been modified to protect Namoras grave, attack. As Jimmy and the others fight, M-11 frees Namora, who quickly takes care of the creatures. After she thanks M-11 for rescuing her, the group regroups in Bobs spaceship and decides to look into various ATLAS Foundation fronts, and Derek is invited along. 
Pg12-pg13: the next day 
Jimmy & co. look into the ATLAS Nursery and are attacked by giant living plants! That night, they look into the ATLAS Mortuary where theyre attacked by zombies! Jimmy asks M-11 to re-kill the Children of ATLAS, so he does. 
Pg14: the next day 
Jimmy and his team check out ATLAS Biotech, where theyre attacked by dinosaurs! 
Pg15: the next day 
Jimmy and the gang visit the ATLAS Orphanage, where theyre attacked by telepathic albino children! 
Pg16-pg21: one week after pg12 
Jimmys team discovers that ATLAS Shipping are actually pirates, attacking wealthy boaters. When Venus subdues them, Jimmy notices that Namora is a little freaked out by Venus, so after the job is done he calls a break and they hang out on the beach, since they happen to be in Fiji. Before Jimmy can ask whats up, he comes across an old man who turns out to be the Yellow Claw. Theyre attacked by his clay soldiers, and afterwards, Jimmy confides in Derek that he knows one of his group is a double agent. 

References: 
James Woos Chinese name is Woo Yen Jet, and should be added to his listing. 

A week separates pg 12 & pg16, but the days arent specified.(I split them up, anyway) They kept busy though, the notes in Jimmys room indicate they were looking into a lot more ATLAS companies than were shown. 

Some of my favorite lines from the issue: 
To Jimmy: A monarch of Atlantis also stands with you. If you lead us into Hell, then the devil will face Namora. 

And: 
No one knows what the robot thinks. 

Agents of ATLAS #5! 
Published: February, 2007 

Appearances: 
Jimmy Woo, Gorilla Man(Ken Hale), Human Robot(M-11), Marvel Boy III(Bob Grayson), Venus II, Namora, Yellow Claw, Derek Khanata, Mr. Lao-OP 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3pn4: day after end of last issue 
Jimmy and the gang arrive at Hunters Point Naval Shipyard. S.H.I.E.L.D. agents have been tracking Derek and are approaching, so Jimmy sends Venus to calm them down. While theyre busy, Jimmy takes the opportunity to ask Namora why shes uncomfortable around Venus. 
Pg3pn5(of 6)-pg5pn5(of 6)-FB 
The origin of Venus! 
Pg5pn6-pg7pn1(of 6): same day as pg5pn5 
M-11 finishes the story Namora started, and Venus overhears, which upsets her greatly. What she believed her life to be was a lie, and her grief overwhelms everyone. Jimmys knowledge of M-11 as a double agent for the Yellow Claw is revealed to the group, and everyone relives crucial times from their lives. 
Pg7pn2-FB 
A young Derek is a soldier under the White Wolf of Wakanda. 
Pg7pn3-FB 
Bob is separated from the Uranians. 
Pg7pn4-pg7pn5-FB 
Liz is terrified to discover that Ken is now a gorilla. 
Pg7pn6-FB 
Namorita watches as Namora is poisoned. 
Pg8-pg21pn3: same day as pg7pn1 
Upset that M-11 has been working against them, Bob destroys the Human Robot. Suprememly pissed, Namora attacks Bob for destroying M-11. Everyone starts to fight, but Jimmy takes Venus off to the side to calm her down. Once she regains her composure, she uses her power to stop the fighting, letting them all live their greatest desires for a time. With everyone settled down, M-11 reassembles himself, who advances to Bob. Jimmy calms M-11 down, and asks him to sever his connection to the Yellow Claw, which he does. Elsewhere, the Yellow Claws screen goes blank, and the Yellow Claw reveals to Mr. Lao that he was never in control of the Human Robot. 
Pg21pn4-FB: just before Jimmys S.H.I.E.L.D. team is killed 
Jimmy prepares to enter the ATLAS foundation. 
Pg21pn5-pg21pn8(of 8): same day as pg21pn3 
After M-11 plays a recording for the group, its discovered that hes built from ATLAS parts. 

References: 
I won't go into detail yet, but it's re-established here that Venus is not the goddess Venus, she's just a Siren. She thought she was the actual Venus, and believed it, but she was wrong. 

Greatest desires? Here they are: 

Bob makes love with a Uranian woman. 
Ken makes love with his wife, a female gorilla. 
Namora makes loves with Namor. 
Jimmy makes love with Suwan, his secret love from years ago. 
Derek makes love with his wife in the waterfalls of Western Wakanda, where they first met. 

One of my favorite lines from the issue: 
Namora, after Bob has destroyed M-11: No! He remembered me! He remembered me when no one else did! He came back for me! 

Agents of ATLAS #6! 
Published: March, 2007 

Appearances: 
Jimmy Woo, Gorilla Man(Ken Hale), Human Robot(M-11), Marvel Boy III(Bob Grayson), Venus II, Namora, Yellow Claw, Dum Dum Dugan, Derek Khanata, Mr. Lao 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: the day after last issue 
Venus subdues hundreds of Mongol warriors underneath San Francisco. 
Pg3pn1-pg3pn2: the next day 
Derek Khanata is debriefed by Dum Dum Dugan. 
Pg3pn3-pg3pn6(of 6)-FB: same day as last issue 
Jimmy and his team review their notes as they make their way to ATALAS Foundations San Francisco entrance. 
Pg4-pg6pn1-FB: the next day, before pg1 
Jimmy and co. enter the ATLAS Foundation. When Jimmy uses the secret password, the Yellow Claws real name, a trap door opens and they fall in. 
Pg6pn2: following pg3pn2 
Derek continues telling his story to Dum Dum. 
Pg6pn3-FB: following pg2 
They discover just how big the place theyre in is. 
Pg6pn4-FB-FB 
After Jimmys S.H.I.E.L.D. team has been killed, the Yellow Claw tends to Jimmy to ensure hell survive until S.H.I.E.L.D. can stabilize him. 
Pg6pn5(of 5)-pg7pn1-FB 
Ken warns the group of danger. 
Pg7pn2-pg7pn4-FB 
Its a lie! Dereks a liar! 
Pg7pn5(of 5)-pg9pn4: following pg6pn2 
Derek tells Dum Dum that Jimmy and his team are dead, and Dum Dum motions that Jimmy and Ken to be listed as served with honors. Derek leaves for New York. 
Pg9pn5(of 6)-pg11pn2-FB: following pg7pn1 
Jimmy orders a shield up, which protects the group from the flame, thanks to Kens warning. Theyre greeted by Mr. Lao, a giant talking dragon. Ken recognizes the voice, but Mr. Lao was human the last time he saw him. 
Pg11pn3-FB-FB 
A human Mr. Lao point Ken Hale to Africa, where a secret of immortality is. 
Pg11pn4(of 5)-pg13pn2-FB: same day as pg11pn2 
Mr. Lao explains that the Yellow Claw is a descendant of Genghis Khan, and that he(Lao) has been the family advisory for centuries. 
Pg13pn3-FB-FB 
An infant Jimmy Woo and his parent arrive in America, to escape their family lineage. 
Pg13pn4(of 5)-pg14pn3: same day as pg13pn2 
Mr. Lao brings them to the Yellow Claw. 
Pg14pn4-FB-FB: just before issue 1 
The Yellow Claw tells M-11 that Marvel Boy can restore Jimmy, and that Gorilla Man can find him. 
Pg14pn5(of 6)-pg18: same day as pg14pn3 
The Yellow Claw explains that ATLAS built M-11, that he stayed with them ever since Marvel Boy returned to space, and he sent M-11 to rescue Jimmy. The Yellow Claw is the leader of ATLAS, and its time for his descendant Jimmy Woo to take his place. Jimmy takes the title of Khan, and C.E.O. of the ATLAS Foundation. Mr. Lao eats the Yellow Claw, as its always done when a new Khan takes control. Derek agrees to keep it quiet, and to provide a cover story for them with S.H.I.E.L.D.. They say their goodbyes and Derek leaves. 
Pg19-pg20pn3(of 4): same day as pg9pn4 
On his way to New York, Derek receives a call from the Black Panther, who informs Derek thats hes a descendant of Genghis Khan. Back under San Francisco, Jimmy Woo and the gang settle in as the Agents of ATLAS. 
Pg20pn4-FB: 1958 
M-11, the Human Robot lies on the sea floor. 
Pg21pn1-pg21pn2(of 6): same day as pg20pn3 
Jimmy wonders just what goes on in M-11s head. 
Pg21pn3-pg22-FB 
The origin of M-11, the Human Robot! 

References: 
The Yellow Claws real name? Master Plan. Well, Plan Chu, actually. As it turns out, The Yellow Claw, Jimmy Woo, Derek Khanata, the Mandarin, and Fu Manchu are all descendants of Genghis Khan, and are all therefore distant relatives. Neat! 

The Agents of ATLAS will next appear in Spider-Man Family #4! That issue has to occur after the entirety of this series, as theyre representing ATLAS in that appearance. They dont have that status until after this series has concluded. 

One of my favorite lines from the issue: 
The doctor, to his creation: Let my final act give you life my Human Robot. 

A quick breakdown: 

... 
AoATLAS 2 (3:3)-FB Kens Howling Commandos interview 
 
Nick Furys Howling Commandoes 1-6 
 
Secret War 1-5 Jimmy interrogates some villains 
 
Civil War 1 Stamford disaster, Namorita dies 
 
AoATLAS 5 (21:4)-FB Day 1 Jimmy prepares 
AoATLAS 1 (9-10)-FB Day 1 Jimmys S.H.I.E.L.D. team dies 
AoATLAS 6 (6:4)-FB-FB Day 1 Yellow Claw tends to Jimmy 
AoATLAS 6 (14:4)-FB-FB Day 1 Yellow Claw tells M-11 whats up 
AoATLAS 3 (19:2)-FB Day 2 Ken contacts Bob 
AoATLAS 5 (7:3)-FB Day 2 Bob is separated from the Uranians 
AoATLAS 3 (19:3)-FB Day 2 Bob leaves Uranus 
AoATLAS 1 (6:4-8) Day 2 Ken brought to S.H.I.E.L.D. base 
AoATLAS 1 (11-21) Day 2 
AoATLAS 2 (3:6-4:2)-FB Day 3 
AoATLAS 2 (1-3:2) Day 3 
AoATLAS 2 (3:4-3:5) Day 3 
AoATLAS 2 (6-11:3) Day 3 
AoATLAS 2 (11:5-17:6) Day 3 
AoATLAS 2 (17:7-21) Day 4 
AoATLAS 3 (1-2:2) Day 4 
AoATLAS 3 (2:4-7:3) Day 4 
AoATLAS 3 (7:5-14) Day 4 
AoATLAS 3 (9:4-21) Day 4 
AoATLAS 4 (1-11) Day 4 
AoATLAS 4 (12-13) Day 5 
AoATLAS 4 (14) Day 6 
AoATLAS 4 (15) Day 7 
AoATLAS 4 (16-21) Day 11 
AoATLAS 5 (1-3:4) Day 12 
AoATLAS 5 (5:6-7:1) Day 12 
AoATLAS 5 (8-21:3) Day 12 
AoATLAS 5 (21:5-21:8) Day 12 
AoATLAS 6 (3:3-3:6)-FB Day 12 
AoATLAS 6 (4-6:1)-FB Day 13 
AoATLAS 6 (1-2) Day 13 
AoATLAS 6 (6:3)-FB Day 13 
AoATLAS 6 (6:5-7:1)-FB Day 13 
AoATLAS 6 (9:5-11:2)-FB Day 13 
AoATLAS 6 (11:4-13:2)-FB Day 13 
AoATLAS 6 (13:4-14:3)-FB Day 13 
AoATLAS 6 (14:5-18)-FB Day 13 
AoATLAS 6 (3:1-3:2) Day 14 
AoATLAS 6 (6:2) Day 14 
AoATLAS 6 (7:5-9:4) Day 14 
AoATLAS 6 (19-20:3) Day 14 
AoATLAS 6 (21:1-21:2) Day 14 
 
Spider-Man Family 4 
... 

So all in all, the mini takes two weeks. It starts after the Stamford disaster, and has to wrap up before Spider-Man switches sides in the Civil War so that Spider-Man Family 4 can happen.(unless, of course, One More Day ends differently than expected. Then I guess it doesnt matter if it finishes before Spider-Man switches sides) 

Historical Flashbacks to follow! eventually. 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 07, 2007 5:26 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Surprised you left out the text backups... 

#1's got a fourth-wall breaking message from Mr. Lao to the reader 
#2's got a "magazine article" on Venus by a Prof. Schiller, post-ited by a SHIELD Agent Coover to Dugan 
#3's got a two-page conversation between Khanata and Dugan via. M-11 [between AoATLAS3 (13) & (14)]. 
#4's got a "case file of Ken Hale" on some more of the busts they made 
#5's got a two-page transcript of a phone-in show, where a certain Prof. Schiller is on to talk about his new book, and gets a phone call from a "Ken"... 
And #6 has a two-page letter from "Plan Chu, The Golden Claw" to his successor, to be opened after his death [And, uniquely, the recap page is done in-character, as another "case file of Ken Hale"] 

And here's some notes on the "historical" stuff I posted before, and might as well throw out there: 


Namora, Gorilla Man, Jimmy Woo & Yellow/Golden Claw are fundamentally unaffected. New wrinkles are added, but nothing that *changes* (as opposed to "adds to"/"reveals new information") anything.
Human Robot's original story is thrown out of continuity entirely. The new version retains some cosmetic aspects - the look of his creator, and the original Human Robot design (the tweaked version seen in the rest of the series is attributed to Marvel Boy's rebuild & ongoing Atlas upgrades) - but is completely irreconcilable. The WI? 9 original story is (framing sequence aside) confirmed as non-canon for the MU as well, as implied by Avengers Forever, with the MU version of events seen early in AoAtlas 1.
Marvel Boy's "how he survived" bit introduces some serious snags with Quasar #2 and possibly some canon What If? backups I've heard of but haven't read. How much that affects actual character listings I'm not sure though.
Venus is the biggest problem though. The origin Namora gives for her is basically confirmed during Mr. Lao's spiel in #6. However, in #3, she claims to have been Namorita's teacher - a reference to Sub-Mariner v1 #57. Which guest-stars a Venus who, between her pursuit by Ares in the issue, and being present on Olympus and referencing SUBM57 during Avengers #277, has to be the actual Greco-Roman goddess. (Incidentally, certainly during the latter story and possibly also the former, AoAt-Venus is meant to be in the unnamed African country the group catch up with her in in AoAtlas #2. The text page in #2 states that she was meant to have been Namorita's teacher for two semesters during "the early 1970s", rather than the sliding-timelined 1990s where SUBM 57 would now sit.) This was why I started this thread - http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... php?t=3180 - to see how relevant the thing is. Basically, it seems that just about every post-GA appearance involves Venus being an actual Olympian goddess in some way. Which isn't necessarily fatal if the listing can be split into VENUS [SIREN] and VENUS [OLYMPIAN], but that's all about what where you draw the line - anyone read the GA-Venus books? 


Oh, and: 

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
The one bit Ill point out now, though: According to Avengers Forever, What If? 9 didnt happen in Marvel-616. This series shows the events that replace that, and WI? 9 should be removed from the chronologies that still have it listed.(Gorilla-Man, Marvel Boy III, Venus II, the Human Robot, & 3-D Man II)
<<<

Well, the Gorilla Man entry should still remain (probably booted to GM II though) because of the Avengers Forever issues (i.e.: 

GORILLA MAN/KENNETH HALE 
{MEN'S ADVENTURE 26} 
[Agents of Atlas FBs] 
X:FC 8 
[Howling Commandos] 
[Agents of Atlas main] 

GORILLA-MAN II 
WI? 9 
AVF 4 
AVF 5) 

As should MARVEL BOY III/ROBERT GRAYSON, 

Venus II is already an entry which exists purely under that principle; i.e., it serves to separate those appearances from the MU/616 Venus(es) - notwithstanding any listings split to VENUS [OLYMPIAN] and VENUS [SIREN] - and so that entry should remain, along with the also WI? 9/AVF 4 & 5-only listing 3D-MAN II. And, given what I said above, the entire HUMAN ROBOT entry, including the Menace #11 story, should remain as-is and a new HUMAN ROBOT/M-11 listing should be created for this series.

			*	*	*

Nov 07, 2007 6:22 pm 
By wolframbane

Nice work on the review Daron. I don't envy the person trying to separate the two Venus's apart for her appearances. Similar to figuring out which appearances were Dr. Doom and which were his Doombots. 

Just as a side note. If Jimmy Woo and the Yellow Claw were both descendants of Genghis Kahn, that would make the distant cousins to the Mandarin and his son Temujin.

			*	*	*

Nov 07, 2007 8:50 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director


Thanks for compiling all of that together, Somebody. Also, good points on WI? 9. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
anyone read the GA-Venus books?  I've only seen the one reprinted in the Agents of ATLAS hardback collection. 
<<<

As for Marvel Boy, I have the ATLAS heroes Masterworks, which has Marvel Boy 1 & 2 and Astonishing 3-6, but I don't own any issues of Quasar.(outside of Annihilation, anyway) What was revealed in issue 2?(I have almost every issue of What if...?, but for some reason I'm drawing a blank on the backups you mentioned) 

Speaking of Marvel Boy, what's the reason for there being Marvel Boy/Martin Burns and Marvel Boy II/Martin Burns II? I don't have Daring Mystery 6 or USA 7, so that looks really strange at a glance... were there two different origin stories using the same names twice or something?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 07, 2007 9:15 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Thanks for compiling all of that together, Somebody. Also, good points on WI? 9. 

Somebody wrote:
>>>
anyone read the GA-Venus books?  I've only seen the one reprinted in the Agents of ATLAS hardback collection.
<<<

Me too (and it seems like a chunk of that gets written off - not reattributed, just negated... if it wasn't already, that is )


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
As for Marvel Boy, I have the ATLAS heroes Masterworks, which has Marvel Boy 1 & 2 and Astonishing 3-6, but I don't own any issues of Quasar.(outside of Annihilation, anyway) What was revealed in issue 2?(I have almost every issue of What if...?, but for some reason I'm drawing a blank on the backups you mentioned) 
<<<

Taking the latter question first, the backups, c. WI? 23-30, were basically the origin of the Eternals. Like I said, I've not got those issues, hence the "possibly". 

Re: Quasar #2, basically is the previous explanation for how they were destroyed (Quasar #1 was a flashback/origin issue, and #2 picks up "several years later", in the then-present day, after he's spent a good long while flying to Uranus in suspended animation. There, he meets Deathurge, who fills him in on what happened to them (a version which I believe is consistent with those WI? backups - since, y'know, Greunwald wrote both'n'all ). Basically, the Uranians were a peaceful, learning obsessed-people, and they learned so much that they had nothing to aim for and thus nothing to live for. After a few millenia of this, they pulled Bob Grayson & his dad from Earth so they could figure out how to die (Eternals, y'know), and once they had that, they asked Deathurge, who found them because they had an urge to die, to smash their life-support dome, and he obliged (since, as Quasar proved later in the issue after Eon gave him a new job, he could only kill people who were already suicidal). 

Obviously, none of this bears any resemblance to the version of the Uranian Eternals from AoAtlas.

			*	*	*

Nov 08, 2007 12:14 am 
By Frederic Krier

Somebody wrote:
>>>
anyone read the GA-Venus books? 
<<<

I've seen a few scans, yes. She's quite clearly identified as an Olympian goddess in those, and interacts a lot with other Olympians, who are mostly referred to by their roman names (Jupiter, Mercury etc.), as well as with Thor (who is pictured as a red-haired, bulky viking) and Loki (who's pictured as a demon from hell). Interestingly, she also has a castle on the planet Venus. Sadly, all of this has been thrown out the window by AoA.

			*	*	*

Nov 08, 2007 2:45 am 
By wolframbane

Actually, the revelation that she is a Naiad rather than a goddess does not necessarily negate her connections to the Olympian gods. Naiads were mythic creatures from Graeco Roman mythology and she could have easily walked among the gods. She could be differentiated in theat she has not, to my knowledge, ever been refered to as APhrodite.

			*	*	*

Nov 08, 2007 8:17 am 
By dimadick

"Were there two different origin stories using the same names twice or something?" 

Excactly. In "Daring Mystery Comics" #6 (June, 1940), he is the modern reincarnation of "Hercules, hero of Egypt" (sic). After his death Hercules entered "Valhalla". He was still able to witness events on Earth and sometime in the 1920s grew concerned about the threat of war over Europe. He asked the ruler of Valhalla, "Jupiter", to return him to Earth. He was thus reincarnated into the newborn form of Martin Burns and grew up with greater than normal strength. As a teenager he was approached by a mysterious "Shadow" who revealed to him his own origins and (apparently) granted him the blue uniform he would use. 

In "USA Comics" #7 (February, 1943), Martin Burns is an average kid who visits a museum to take a look at the mummified remains of Hercules. For some reason the remains just fall on him and the "extract" of the deceased demigod enters his body through his wound from the accident. A mysterious "Shadow" then visits him to inform the boy of his possession of the spirit of Hercules and (clearly) granted him the yellow uniform he would use. 

The first Martin Burns gets his powers at the time of his birth while the second one gets them in his teen years by accident. A mutant vs mutate if you like. By the way the second origin also gives him "the speed of Mercury and the Wisdom of Abe Lincoln" but never clarifies how would this be possible. 

Either way, the two origins do not fit together very well and neither one got continued by any other writer. They are merely notable for an early attempt by Marvel to adapt characters from old mythologies. A clumsly one and with writers not too interested in actually researching said mythologies but still bit both Venus and Thor into printing. 

The "International Catalogue of Superheroes" in a sarcastic mood suggested the following origin to make sense of both stories: "Some mysterious being (the Shadow) got his kicks out of finding gullible youths by the name of Martin Burns, empowering them, then telling them a cockamamie story about the source of their powers to see if they were stupid enough to fall for it".

			*	*	*

Nov 08, 2007 8:36 am 
By dimadick

"She could be differentiated in theat she has not, to my knowledge, ever been refered to as APhrodite." 

But in her appearances in "Avengers" vol. 1 #283 (September, 1987), Marvel Super-Heroes vol. 3 #9 (April, 1992) and "Sensational She-Hulk" #36 (February, 1992) she interacts with Cupid who specifically calls her mother. The Super-Heroes appearance even contains a flashback to ancient times with the involvement of both deities with Psyche. 

(The Avengers appearance is currently omitted from his MCP listing but the winged youth calling her "mother" is probably him again. He just looks younger than usual). 

Meanwhile the only appearance which does use Aphrodite is "Thor Annual" #8 (1979) which takes place in the Trojan War.

			*	*	*

Nov 08, 2007 11:47 am 
By wolframbane

dimadick wrote:
>>>
"Were there two different origin stories using the same names twice or something?"

Excactly. In "Daring Mystery Comics" #6 (June, 1940), he is the modern reincarnation of "Hercules, hero of Egypt" (sic). After his death Hercules entered "Valhalla". He was still able to witness events on Earth and sometime in the 1920s grew concerned about the threat of war over Europe. He asked the ruler of Valhalla, "Jupiter", to return him to Earth. He was thus reincarnated into the newborn form of Martin Burns and grew up with greater than normal strength. As a teenager he was approached by a mysterious "Shadow" who revealed to him his own origins and (apparently) granted him the blue uniform he would use. 

In "USA Comics" #7 (February, 1943), Martin Burns is an average kid who visits a museum to take a look at the mummified remains of Hercules. For some reason the remains just fall on him and the "extract" of the deceased demigod enters his body through his wound from the accident. A mysterious "Shadow" then visits him to inform the boy of his possession of the spirit of Hercules and (clearly) granted him the yellow uniform he would use.

The first Martin Burns gets his powers at the time of his birth while the second one gets them in his teen years by accident. A mutant vs mutate if you like. By the way the second origin also gives him "the speed of Mercury and the Wisdom of Abe Lincoln" but never clarifies how would this be possible. 

Either way, the two origins do not fit together very well and neither one got continued by any other writer. They are merely notable for an early attempt by Marvel to adapt characters from old mythologies. A clumsly one and with writers not too interested in actually researching said mythologies but still bit both Venus and Thor into printing. 

The "International Catalogue of Superheroes" in a sarcastic mood suggested the following origin to make sense of both stories: "Some mysterious being (the Shadow) got his kicks out of finding gullible youths by the name of Martin Burns, empowering them, then telling them a cockamamie story about the source of their powers to see if they were stupid enough to fall for it".
<<<

With regard to the two Martin Burns/Marvel Boys, the Recent OHOTMU-AZ #4 seems to have given this a bit of clarity, making them Martin Kirby Burns and Martin Oksner Burns (named after their creative artists). I could suppose that the 'Hercules' that was reincarnated into one was the same mummified corpse whose blood gave the second their powers. The OHOTMU-AZ #4 does clarify that this is not the same as the Olympian Hercules.

			*	*	*

Nov 08, 2007 11:53 am 
By wolframbane

dimadick wrote:
>>>
(The Avengers appearance is currently omitted from his MCP listing but the winged youth calling her "mother" is probably him again. He just looks younger than usual).
<<<

The Naiad Venus apparntly thought she WAS the Olympian goddess Venus (as indicated in M/:LG 5). She may have been able to convince others that she was the genuine article too, such as the later gods Seth and Damballah usurping follwers from the Elder Gods of the same names, Apocalyse posing as several gods of Death, or the Eternals being mistaken for Olympian gods (Zuras, Thena, etc.).

			*	*	*

Nov 08, 2007 11:57 am 
By Somebody
Director

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
dimadick wrote:
>>>
(The Avengers appearance is currently omitted from his MCP listing but the winged youth calling her "mother" is probably him again. He just looks younger than usual).
<<<

The Naiad Venus apparntly thought she WAS the Olympian goddess Venus (as indicated in M/:LG 5). She may have been able to convince others that she was the genuine article too, such as the later gods Seth and Damballah usurping follwers from the Elder Gods of the same names, Apocalyse posing as several gods of Death, or the Eternals being mistaken for Olympian gods (Zuras, Thena, etc.).
<<<

On Olympius!? (which is what you're requiring) Wouldn't the real Venus/Aphrodite have noticed, never mind Zeus, Ares, Hercules, Cupid, a few thousand immortal Amazons & co...

Last edited by Somebody on Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:02 pm, edited 2 times in total. 

			*	*	*

Nov 08, 2007 11:58 am 
By wolframbane

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
The Yellow Claws real name? Master Plan. Well, Plan Chu, actually. As it turns out, The Yellow Claw, Jimmy Woo, Derek Khanata, the Mandarin, and Fu Manchu are all descendants of Genghis Khan, and are all therefore distant relatives. Neat! 
<<<

The Yellow Claw, his grand-niece Suwan, Jimmy Woo and his parents (or at least one of them), and Derek Khanata were revealed as descendants of Genghis Kahn in AOATLAS. 

I know Mandarin and his son Temujin (another name for Genghis Kahn BTW) are revealed in the Iron Man series. Is their relationship also mentioned in AOATLAS? And in Fu Manchu revelaed in AOATLAS too, or some other issue?

			*	*	*

Nov 08, 2007 12:04 pm 
By wolframbane

Somebody wrote:
>>>
wolframbane wrote:
>>>
dimadick wrote:
>>>
(The Avengers appearance is currently omitted from his MCP listing but the winged youth calling her "mother" is probably him again. He just looks younger than usual).
<<<

The Naiad Venus apparntly thought she WAS the Olympian goddess Venus (as indicated in M/:LG 5). She may have been able to convince others that she was the genuine article too, such as the later gods Seth and Damballah usurping follwers from the Elder Gods of the same names, Apocalyse posing as several gods of Death, or the Eternals being mistaken for Olympian gods (Zuras, Thena, etc.).
<<<

On Olympius (which is what you're requiring)!? Wouldn't the real Venus/Aphrodite have noticed, never mind Zeus, Ares, Hercules, Cupid & co...
<<<

Well, in classical mythology, Naiads are either the daughters of Zeus or the Oceanids (themselves chidren of the Titans Oceanus and Tethys). Enough mythical clout to allow them to walk around Olympus at least. Similar to how Hippolyta, a simple Amazon but still daughter of Ares (possibly) with godly powers, cn be considered a goddess. Mind you, the definition of god/goddess gets a little hazy after one or two generations.

			*	*	*

Nov 08, 2007 7:01 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
I know Mandarin and his son Temujin (another name for Genghis Kahn BTW) are revealed in the Iron Man series. Is their relationship also mentioned in AOATLAS? And in Fu Manchu revelaed in AOATLAS too, or some other issue?
<<<

I think Fu Manchu was revealed in an issue of Master of Kung Fu somewhere. As for relationships, it's just mentioned that they all have Genghis as a common ancestor. 


dimadick wrote:
>>>
The "International Catalogue of Superheroes" in a sarcastic mood suggested the following origin to make sense of both stories: "Some mysterious being (the Shadow) got his kicks out of finding gullible youths by the name of Martin Burns, empowering them, then telling them a cockamamie story about the source of their powers to see if they were stupid enough to fall for it".
<<<

That's brilliant! 

As for Venus... 

Given her origin in AoATLAS, she couldn't have been Queen of the Planet Venus. Also, even if she could have entered and walked around Olympus, I don't think that any of the Olympians would have been fooled. As it stands now, her post-FF 1 origin is that she isn't the actual Venus, even though she thought she was. Guh. I really need to look into this when I have the chance.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 08, 2007 10:17 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
So all in all, the mini takes two weeks. It starts after the Stamford disaster, and has to wrap up before Spider-Man switches sides in the Civil War so that Spider-Man Family 4 can happen.(unless, of course, One More Day ends differently than expected. Then I guess it doesnt matter if it finishes before Spider-Man switches sides) 
<<<

We discussed the problems with this in a previous thread. AoA must occur after the start of the Civil War, given the reference to Namorita's death. At the start of CW and for a while before then, Peter and M.J. were living at Stark Tower and Peter wore his Iron Spider costume. During Civil War, Peter switched sides, resumed wearing his classic costume, and found himself living in a motel with M.J. and May. Then came May being shot at the end of CW, the black costume, and One More Day. 

Of course SMF2 4/2 must occur after AoA 6, given the appearance of the Agents of Atlas in that story. The problem is that Spidey is shown there in classic costume and living with M.J. in an apartment. This status for Spidey ended in ASM 515, quite some time before Civil War. 

Either SMF2 4/2 occurred while Spidey was a fugitive during Civil War and the apartment was actually the motel (and May is...somehere) OR One More Day returns us to a status quo in which SMF2 4/2 makes sense. 

Ugh.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 08, 2007 11:02 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

One option is to chalk up the apartment in Family 4 as an art error if this can't happen post-One More Day. Or maybe Tony loaned Pete & MJ one of his random places for a weekend to get out of the Tower.(I kind of like that one, actually)

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 08, 2007 11:14 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
As for Venus...

Given her origin in AoATLAS, she couldn't have been Queen of the Planet Venus. Also, even if she could have entered and walked around Olympus, I don't think that any of the Olympians would have been fooled. As it stands now, her post-FF 1 origin is that she isn't the actual Venus, even though she thought she was. Guh. I really need to look into this when I have the chance.
<<<

Plus, of course. she was convinced she came from planet Venus, rather than Olympus  

As a guideline, I'd place a cut-off whereby all pre-20th century and post-FF1 appearances (except AoAt and related, obviously ) are of the actual Venus/Aphrodite, and in-between is presumed to be the siren "Venus" unless proven otherwise. Per Agents of Atlas #3, after all, Venus heard about the war in Unnamedafricancountryx in "the 80s" from Gorilla Man, and arrived there "ten years ago". Being eco-conscious before it was fashionable, she took the long way to get there rather than flying direct and kept stopping off to sort out other problems along the way. 

Some of the stuff from her original series and any flashbacks might need to be... finessed... to sort that out, but (e.g., since it was brought up) we know from Invaders that 1940s-Thor looked exactly like the Kirby Thor, and from Lost Generation that the 1960s-Thor did too, so he's not likely to have gone through a red-haired barbarian phase in the meantime (I think there's even a few lines in the Simonson run about how ridiculous the Asgardians see the mortal images of them as) - and Venus (who is certainly the siren in MLG5) doesn't recognise him, wondering if he might be the real Thor. 

And: 
The Avengers "Assault on Olympus" has Venus there as a full-fledged goddess and referencing Sub-Mariner #57 (where she was being pursued by Ares). 
As mentioned, Sensational She-Hulk #36 has Venus on Olympus, with Eros/Cupid and Hermes both recognising her as the real Venus. 
Marvel Super-Heroes v3 #9 also involves Olympus & Cupid... and calls her Aphrodite rather than Venus to boot. 
Champions #1-3 has her being called "cousin" by Hercules, recognised by Amazons and sundry mythological figures working for Pluto & Ares, Zeus, called "Olympians" by Pluto... it's got to be the Olympian.

			*	*	*

Nov 09, 2007 12:33 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Some of the more straightforward stuff first: 

WOO, JAMES JIMMY/WOO YEN JET 
*AoATLAS 6 (13:3)-FB 
*{YC 1} 
YC 4 
*AoATLAS 3-FB 
*AoATLAS 1 (1-6:3)-FB (1958) 
*AoATLAS 2-FB (1959) 
ST 160 
 
 
*AoATLAS 5 (21:4)-FB 
*AoATLAS 1 (9-10)-FB 
*AoATLAS 6 (6:4)-FB-FB 
*AoATLAS 1
*AoATLAS 2
*AoATLAS 3
*AoATLAS 4 
... 
*SMF2 4/2 

SUWAN 
INV 41 
*YC 1 
YC 4 
ST 160-FB-BTS 
 

YELLOW CLAW/GOLDEN CLAW/TZING JAO/PLAN CHU/"BHAGWAN SRI ANANDA" 
 
YC 4/4 
YC 4/6 
*AoATLAS 1-FB 
M/:LG 3 
M/:LG 7 ~ M/:LG 3 
M/:LG 3 
CA 164 
 
... 
NF3 14 
*AoATLAS 6 (6:4)-FB-FB 
*AoATLAS 6 (14:4)-FB-FB 
*AoATLAS 2
*AoATLAS 3-BTS
*AoATLAS 4 
... 

MR. LAO 
AoATLAS 6 (11:3)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (21:3-22)-FB-BTS 
{AoATLAS 2} 
AoATLAS 5-OP 
AoATLAS 6 (9:5-11:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (11:4-13:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (13:4-14:3)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (14:5-18)-FB 

VOLTZMANN, FRITZ 
YC 1 
AoATLAS 1-FB 

NAMORA/AQUARIA NAUTICA NEPTUNIA [ATLANTEAN] 
 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 42 
CV2 1 
M/:LG 2 (1958) 
*AoATLAS 1-FB (1958) 
{SUB-M 33-FB} 
N 20 (16-18)-FB 
M/:LG 3 
SUB-M 51-FB 
SUB-M 50 
*AoATLAS 3
*AoATLAS 4 
 
*SMF2 4/2 

KHANATA, DEREK 
AoATLAS 5-FB 
AoATLAS 1 
AoATLAS 2 
AoATLAS 3 
AoATLAS 4 
 

EISENHOWER, GEN. DWIGHT D. 
SGTF 88-BTS (07/43) 
SGTF@ 2 
SGTF 108-FB 
SAGAHT 4-FB-FB 
SAGAHT 4-FB 
*AoATLAS 1-FB (1958) 

OH, JAKE 
AoATLAS 1 
AoATLAS 3 
(I'm not sure if the Phoenix: Warsong is pre- or post-Civil War, but if it falls before Agents of ATLAS, issue 1 should get brackets) 

More to follow!

Last edited by Col_Fury on Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:38 pm, edited 3 times in total. 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 09, 2007 6:56 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
One option is to chalk up the apartment in Family 4 as an art error if this can't happen post-One More Day. Or maybe Tony loaned Pete & MJ one of his random places for a weekend to get out of the Tower.(I kind of like that one, actually)
<<<

In that case, you'd have to assume that the classic Spidey costume seen in SMF2 4/2 is version 2.0 of the Iron Spidey costume imitating the classic costume. It wouldn't be the first time we've had to attribute the appearance of the classic costume to the Iron Spidey camouflage (e.g. THING2 8, MK5 7). And during the period early in CW, Spidey actually wore the classic costume at least once (BLADE8 10), with a rationalization we made that the Iron Spidey costume was in for fine tuning. (I wouldn't overuse that excuse, though.) 

I'm at a disadvantage as I don't have SMF2 4. Is there any problem to the good Colonel's explanation if we say that we're seeing Iron Spidey costume 2.0 there? If not, I'll work on the likely placement of that and AoA 1-6.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 09, 2007 6:59 am 
By dimadick

"As a guideline, I'd place a cut-off whereby all pre-20th century and post-FF1 appearances (except AoAt and related, obviously Smile) are of the actual Venus/Aphrodite, and in-between is presumed to be the siren "Venus" unless proven otherwise." 

On a case by case basis: 

1) Thor Annual #8 (1979). Takes place during the Trojan War. A time-traveling Thor gets involved in the events of the Illiad, introduces himself to Aphrodite and the other Olympians. He visits Olympus. He even saves Aphrodite from Diomides when the mortal wounds her with a spear. 

More likely the Goddess than the Naiad. (Curiouosity. In the Illiad Apollo saves the wounded Aphrodite. In the Annual, Thor takes the place of Apollo. Aphrodite is one of two Gods Diomedes manages to wound in battle. The other is Ares. ) 

2) The flashback scene in Marvel Super-Heroes vol. 3 #9 (April, 1992). The story of Psyche and Cupid. 

Again the Goddess rather than Naiad. 

3) Doctor Strange vol. 3 #32 (August, 1991). A Venus impersonator seduces Ares. Their affair gives birth to Deimos and Phobos. The impersonator is named as Nox, a "Demoness". 

*Gives a precedent of Olympians failing to tell apart Aphrodite from impostors. Neither the Goddess nor the Naiad here. 

*Nox is based on Nyx, Goddess of the Night. In Greek legend she is a Goddess who preceeds the Titans and Olympians. She is given as either daughter of Chaos (Hesiod) or the cosmic version of Eros (Orhics). The later personifies the impulse of creation and shapes the world. Usualy gets different depictions than the son of Aphrodite. 

*Deimos (Fear) and Phobos (Terror) are minor Olympian deities. Traditional legends depicts them as sons of Ares and Aphrodite. 

4) Venus #1- 19 (August, 1948 - April, 1952), Marvel Mystery Comics #91 (April, 1949). 

All stories depict the character now retconned to a Naiad. 

*She works at Beauty Magazine and her love interest is her boss Whitney Hammond. Her romantic rival is Della Mason. 
*The second story in Venus #1 has her bring ten of her handmaidens to act as models for the Magazine. Named are Cleopatra, Helen of Troy and Salome. 
*The first story in Venus #3 has Venus helping Rodney Radiant, a reincarnation of Narcissus, get out of his self-absorption and find true love. 
*The fourth story in Venus #3 has Apollo trying to follow her example. He settles on Earth under the alias "Paul Belvedere". However the Sun refuses to set without the presence of the sun deity. Venus forces Apollo to return to Olympus and commands him to stay there. 
*The story in Marvel Mystery Comics #91 had her bring her handmaiden Juno to Earth for a date with Frank Foster. Conving the guy to open himself to romance. 
*The first story in Venus #4 has Venus dating the demigod Sampson to get Whitney jealous. 
*The first story in Venus #5 has Jupiter ordering her return to Olympus. She claims her mission of bringing couples together is too important to quit. Jupiter agrees to let her stay if she can show him a perfect couple within a week. Secretly he assigns Apollo and Daphne to Earth under the aliases of "Renee Andre" and "Rona Belladonna". Their mission was to sabotage Venus efforts and loose the challenge. They fail miserably and Jupiter lets her stay on Earth. 
*The main story in Venus #6 has Venus and Loki attending Mardi Gras in New Orleans and first interacting with each other. 
*Venus #7 has Joya, daughter of Jupiter accusing Venus of treason for consorting with a mortal. Jupiter has Mercury summon Venus for her trial. However Loki had escaped his confinement in the underworld and invades Olympus. He only agrees to leave if Venus joins him in his underworld exile. Joya sacrifices hersel;f by impersonating Venus and joining him. 
*The first story in Venus #10 has Venus romanced by the Son of Satan. She rejects him and in vengeance junior unleashes floods and typhoons across the globe. She agrees to date him if he stops the rampage but only lures him into a trap. Apollo imprisons the Son of Satan and exiles him to outer space. 
*The first story in Venus #12 has Venus abducted by Khorok, Sultan of Cassarobia. For some reason her powers do not work within his land and neither do those of concerned Jupiter and Mercury. The day is saved by the combined efforts of Loki and Thor who do not share the same limitations for some reason. 
*The second story in Venus #12 has Venus on a cruise ship attacked by aquatic humanoids. Atomic bomb tests had displaced their underwater home to the surface and they are enraged against the surface-dwellers. Venus summons Neptune who promises to fix things. 
*The first story in Venus #13 has Venus facing dishonorably discharged Major John Dark and his juggernaut robot, intended to level cities across the United States on behalf of the bitter man. Venus saves the day with assistance by Jupiter, Mars and Thor. 
*The second story in Venus #13 has Venus facing the Creeping Death, a rampaging monster. She calls on Jupiter for help. He sents Thor who introduces Creeping Death to actual death. 
*Venus #14 has Venus join with Baron Franz Heinrich for a trip to Mars, in his search of the Fountain of Youth. There Venus encounters Azrael, Angel of Death. 
*The second story in Venus #16 has Venus and Della Mason co-operate for once in investigating a mystery. Following several recent funerals, the loved ones of the deceased dissappear without a trace. All the deceased were cremated in the same crematoriun, under a Mr. Natas. Venus plays dead and Della posing as her sister arranges for her funeral. Before long Della is abducted and is about to be cremated alive. That is what Natas did to all the missing persons. Venus turns up alive and rescues Della. Natas throws himself into his own crematorium but even the police are unable to find trace evidences of him. Not even his ashes. The girls realise his name was an unagram of "Satan" and suspect their opponent was actually from Hades and simply returned there. (Natas had previously claimed to be senting his victims to Hades but the girls did not take it literally). 
*The fourth story in Venus #18 has Venus in battle with another Goddess. Neptunia, daughter of Neptune claims her father was killed in the nuclear explosion of another atomic testing. She attempts to avenge his death by causing violent storms across the Atlantic Coast. Venus defeats her and Neptunia apparently perishes in her own final storm. 
*The fourth story in Venus #19 has Venus stalked by a vampire and ends with placing a stake through his chest to destroy him. Would fit well with later Dracula and Blade. 

Those are all the stories with available summaries and crossovers with other immortals that I could find. Even if she is a Naiad, we would have to find someway to rationalise her supporting cast and their relations to later incarnations by Jack Kirby and others. By the way with all the modern tales about reccuring Ragnaroks, the Thor who died in the previous Ragnarok was depicted as redhaired. 

5) In Marvel Valentine Special #1 (April, 1997), an explanation for the end of her affiliation with Beauty Magazine is given. Back in 1952, Venus realised her newest lover Whitney Hammond was mortal. Which would mean she would once again have to see a mortal loved one grow old and die. While she remained eternally young. She chose to leave him and return to Olympus. Whitney took it hard because he could not believe the reasons for her departure. 

Not necessarily a flashback but this little tale goes well with the siren. 

6) In Marvel:The Lost Generation #5 which takes place c. 1967. "Odin send Thor to Earth to help defeat an evil corrupting the youth of America. Upon arriving on Earth Thor meet Pixie and joins the First Line on their mission to defeat a Nazi War Criminal by the name of Rumor. Rumor has used his power to control the Goddess Venus and through her expand his will upon the youth of America. Venus's power affect Sunshine who in turn hypnotises Captain Hip into fighting for Rumor. Rumor is defeated by the First Line and Thor. Thor returns to Asgard while Captain Hip and Sunshine retire and prepare for the birth of their child." 

She does wonder if it really was Thor whom she had met. This Thor does not yet reside on Earth and there is no trace of Donald Blake. Among his supporting cast in the issue there are cameos by Fandral, Hogun, Odin, Valkyrie and Volstagg. All Kirby-style Asgardians. 

The Goddess should have recognized Thor from their Trojan War encounter. The Naiad would be familiar with her own Thor and not regognize blondie. 

7) Sub-Mariner #57 (January, 1973) established that Venus was working as professor of humanities at the University of California, Los Angeles for an unspecified amount of time prior to the events depicted. With Namorita among her students. 

*Venus used the human alias Victoria Nutley Star. In her own series she had used the alias Victoria Starr. No middle name and double rr. Though the original series very rarely had her adressed with the alias. She could care less who knew her "secret" identity. 
*The issue was written and drawn by Bill Everett. Everett is credited with writting and drawing Venus #13-19 (April, 1951 - April, 1952) which changed the direction of the title from a comedic romance title to a horror and mystery one. At this point he was attempting to revive a pet character after twenty one years in limbo. 

8) The current day events in Sub-Mariner #57 have Venus stalked by Ares who wants to renew their past love affair. The affair the Doctor Strange flashback retconned to have been with Nox in disguise. 

Venus attempts to escape her suitor and in the process goes missing from the university. Namorita convinces Namor to go searching for her missing teacher. Namor saves the day and Ares departs defeated. 

Definetely the Naiad or at least the protagonist of the Venus series. Since she only uses a slight variation of the alias. Curiously she shapeshifts into a dolphin within the issue. Shapeshifting is among the traditional powers of the Olympian Gods but I don't think it has been prominently used in the Marvel Universe. 

Note: This issue precedes The 1950s Avengers retconned adventure. So Venus does not point to Namor and Namorita of having known Namora. 

9) Champions #1-3 (October, 1975 - February, 1976). There is where we actually ran into problems. 

Venus is still teaching at UCLA with Angel and Iceman among the new students. (Which would make Namorita senior to them by the way). The entire plot relies on an alliance between Pluto, Ares and Hippolyta. 

Pluto has allied himself with several Hell-Lords and thus increased his own power. He bullies Zeus into agreeing to forced marriages between (1) Ares and Venus, (2) Hercules and Hippolyta. Pluto having in mind an obscure law preventing Olympian spouses from combat against each other. 

The plan relies on grateful Ares and Hippolyta being on his side when Pluto dethrones Zeus. With Venus and Hercules being unable to assist Zeus and thus violate their marriage oaths. (Oaths were taken quite seriously by Olympian Gods in legend because liars had to drink from the waters of Styx and loose the ability to move their own limbs for a period of some years). Zeus was working with Pluto until realising the nature and ultimate goal of the plan. He banishes Pluto back to Hades and the alliance apparently ends. 

The plot heavily relies on this being the same Venus from Sub-Mariner #57 but having her first encounters with the Kirby-style Olympians. Who all recognize her! Could the Goddess take over the Naiad's civilian identity at some point? 

10) Avengers #283-284 (September - October, 1987). Venus resides on Olympus, interacts with her son Cupid. She allies with the Avengers against Zeus. 

This should be the Goddess with no evidence or residing on Earth. However the Avengers who convinces her to come at their side is Namor. Hinting at their past connection from Sub-Mariner #57. 

11) The current events from Marvel Super-Heroes vol. 3 #9. Ares takes mental control over Venus. 

The mind-controlled Venus convinces her son Cupid that his deceased mortal wife Psyche has been reincarnated. In the person of Mockingbird. Eager to regain his wife Cupid goes to Earth and successfuly goes through the ranks of the West Coast Avengers to get to her. Mockingbird has no intention of eloping with him and finally Hercules clues Cupid on the plot of Ares. They jointly ruin the plans of the God of War. 

This should be the Goddess. Flashbacks to antiquity, interactions with Cupid and no prominent mention of eartly connections. 

12) Sensational She-Hulk #36 (February, 1992). Venus takes action against woman-hating villain Mahkizmo by assigning Cupid to make him fall in love with a woman. Cupid chooses She-Hulk. 

Same depiction of Cupid as above. Plobably the same Venus, the Goddess. 

13) The Current events of Marvel Valentine Special. 

Venus spents Valentine's Day on Olympus when Joya, her fellow Goddess from Venus #7 who seems to have left Loki at some point, informs her of a mission on Earth. 

Goom of Planet-X (from Tales of Suspense #15 - March, 1961) is attempting to use Hanover Computer Dating Service for the initial phase of his latest world conquering plan. He plans to claim many human women as his harem of brides, have them give birth to his children and take over the Earth by having his descedants become the dominant population. 

He starts his plan with claiming Chili, one of three partners behind the dating service. Venus fights him incoclusively but Goom only wants to add her to his new harem. She manages to find however a perfect match for him, Shivoor of Colony World X-IV. She was also a pillager and plunderer and glad to marry him. But would not hear a word about other brides or Earth and Goom was dragged along to his new marriage life. 

Venus finds one of the three parents to be an aging Whitney Hammond. They declare their love for each other after all these decades. Venus takes him to Olympus to spend his "final days" by her side. 

Notes: 
*The appearances of Joya and Whitmey Hammond here are to the best of my knowledge the only revivals of the supporting cast of the Venus series. This should be the Naiad by the recent retcon. 
*Chili is a prominent supporting character of the series "Millie the Model". She was also the protagonist of her own title, "Chili" #1 - 26 (May, 1969 - December, 1973). For some reason her last name has been given variously as "Storm" and "Seven" by both original issues (in scans) and modern reprints. So "Chili Seven" and "Chili Storm" seem to both be correct names for her. Her current MCP listing has her under Storm but only mentions two appearances in the third volume of the Avengers. 
*The third partner is Hedy Devine. The character was a film actress and protagonist of the series "Hedy DeVine" #22 - 35 (August, 1947 - October, 1949) and "Hedy of Hollywood" #36 -50 (February, 1950 - September, 1952). 

That would be the last actual appearance before Agents of Atlas. Do you think the sorting works this way or do you have other suggestions?

			*	*	*

Nov 09, 2007 12:19 pm 
By Somebody
Director

dimadick wrote:
>>>
Those are all the stories with available summaries and crossovers with other immortals that I could find. Even if she is a Naiad, we would have to find someway to rationalise her supporting cast and their relations to later incarnations by Jack Kirby and others. By the way with all the modern tales about reccuring Ragnaroks, the Thor who died in the previous Ragnarok was depicted as redhaired.
<<<

Yeah... but that was over a thousand years ago (precise time and details are vague). Like I said, in Invaders #32-33, the 1940s Thor is "blondie", and you note the Kirby-style Asgardians in Lost Generation's 1967.


dimadick wrote:
>>>
7) Sub-Mariner #57 (January, 1973) established that Venus was working as professor of humanities at the University of California, Los Angeles for an unspecified amount of time prior to the events depicted. With Namorita among her students.

*Venus used the human alias Victoria Nutley Star. In her own series she had used the alias Victoria Starr. No middle name and double rr. Though the original series very rarely had her adressed with the alias. She could care less who knew her "secret" identity. 
*The issue was written and drawn by Bill Everett. Everett is credited with writting and drawing Venus #13-19 (April, 1951 - April, 1952) which changed the direction of the title from a comedic romance title to a horror and mystery one. At this point he was attempting to revive a pet character after twenty one years in limbo. 

8) The current day events in Sub-Mariner #57 have Venus stalked by Ares who wants to renew their past love affair. The affair the Doctor Strange flashback retconned to have been with Nox in disguise. 

Venus attempts to escape her suitor and in the process goes missing from the university. Namorita convinces Namor to go searching for her missing teacher. Namor saves the day and Ares departs defeated.

Definetely the Naiad or at least the protagonist of the Venus series. Since she only uses a slight variation of the alias. Curiously she shapeshifts into a dolphin within the issue. Shapeshifting is among the traditional powers of the Olympian Gods but I don't think it has been prominently used in the Marvel Universe. 

9) Champions #1-3 (October, 1975 - February, 1976). There is where we actually ran into problems.

[...]

The plot heavily relies on this being the same Venus from Sub-Mariner #57 but having her first encounters with the Kirby-style Olympians. Who all recognize her! Could the Goddess take over the Naiad's civilian identity at some point?

10) Avengers #283-284 (September - October, 1987). Venus resides on Olympus, interacts with her son Cupid. She allies with the Avengers against Zeus.

This should be the Goddess with no evidence or residing on Earth. However the Avengers who convinces her to come at their side is Namor. Hinting at their past connection from Sub-Mariner #57. 

[...]

Do you think the sorting works this way or do you have other suggestions?
<<<

I would take a punt and just attribute Sub-Mariner #57 to the Olympian and be done with it. As I've noted, and you further note, Champions #1-3 and Avengers #283 both draw on SUB-M 57. While it's not out of the question the Olympian could become curious about the Siren's use of her [Roman] name and go looking for her before getting sidetracked, the two meetings for the siren to give the Olympian her ID would kind of blow her delusions out of the water.

All Venus actually says in Agents of Atlas about her relationship with Namorita is "I knew Nita for a while. She's a beautiful girl." While it's obviously intended as a reference to Sub-Mariner #57, it doesn't actually require it the way, say, "I was Nita's humanities professor for a while. She's a beautiful girl." would have done.

			*	*	*

Nov 09, 2007 5:27 pm 
By Enda80

"Those are all the stories with available summaries and crossovers with other immortals that I could find. Even if she is a Naiad, we would have to find someway to rationalise her supporting cast and their relations to later incarnations by Jack Kirby and others. By the way with all the modern tales about reccuring Ragnaroks, the Thor who died in the previous Ragnarok was depicted as redhaired. 

Yeah... but that was over a thousand years ago (precise time and details are vague). " 

Thor I#292-293 had a disembodied eye of Odin claim it was about 2000 years ago, since the destruction of that version of Asgard was presented as the Star of Bethlehem that led the Wise Men to the Muslim/Christian Prophet Jesus son of Mary.

			*	*	*

Nov 09, 2007 5:46 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Thor I#292-293 had a disembodied eye of Odin claim...
<<<

Whose account was discredited by the existence of Tiwaz/Buri, and Thor: Son of Asgard. Not to mention Odin's own story of the origin of his power. 

That there were previous Asgardian cycles has been established, but the "Kirby Cycle" didn't begin with prior gods merging into one and creating most of the others from a bunch of little statues.

			*	*	*

Nov 10, 2007 12:50 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Mens Adventures #26/4 shows Ken Hale waking up in bed after having a dream about gorillas killing each other. He has the dream night after night, driving him crazy. After asking his doctor and checking at the library, he asks his old friend Benson at the explorers club about gorilla men. Benson says he heard about rumors of them in Africa, so off Ken goes. Once he gets there, no one wants to help him find the gorilla men, so he goes off on his own. He eventually finds himself in the jungle shooting random animals when hes approached by a gorilla man. They fight and he eventually kills the gorilla, to discover that hes become a gorilla himself, the Gorilla Man! 

Agents of ATLAS #2-FB-FB shows Ken Hale searching for and fighting a gorilla, then turning into a gorilla himself. 

While the two are basically the same, the big difference between them is that Ken is a soldier of fortune in the AoATLAS 2-FB-FB, and a regular Joe in Mens Adventures 26/4. Thats not a big deal if we insert a gap of time between pgs 3 & 4 of Mens Adventures to give him time to become a soldier of fortune, bored with his old life of normalcy. 

GORILLA MAN/KENNETH KEN HALE 
MENS ADVENTURES 26/4 (1-3) 
AoATLAS 6 (11:3)-FB-FB-OP 
MENS ADVENTURES 26/4 (4-6) 
AoATLAS 5-FB 
AoATLAS 1-FB (1958) 
X: FC 8 
AoATLAS 2-FB 
NFHC 1 
NFHC 2 
NFHC 4 
NFHC 5 
NFHC 6 
AoATLAS 3-FB 
AoATLAS 1 
AoATLAS 2 
AoATLAS 3 
AoATLAS 4 
 
SMF2 4/2 

And, as Somebody mentioned: 

GORILLA MAN II 
WI? 9 
AVF 4 
AVF 5 

Menace #11 shows the creation of the Robot. His creator is pressured by his business manager to finish up quick, so they can be paid five million dollars. The professor doesnt want to hand anything over until the robot is perfected, so the business manager records a command into the robot: kill the man in the room. Later, the professor arrives with the final piece to perfect the robot, a regulator, but before he can install it the robot kills him. The manager comes in to collect the robot so he can turn it over for the money, but since the manager is 'a man in a room', the robot kills him, as well. The robot shuffles off, to go kill a man every time he sees one in a room. 

Agents of ATLAS #6-FB shows the creation of the Human Robot. His creator is told that Mr. Lao wants the M-series robot ready for missions in the morning, but the doctor sees a rare chance with this one. There is no time for another option, so the doctor offers his life(through electrocution) for the crucial encoding required to perfect M-11. Some of his essence will be given to the Robot, but he will be his own being. He will be human, and with the doctors final act, he gives life to the Human Robot. 

This ones trickier. The robot is not named in Menace 11, hes just called the robot.(Hes named later in What if? #9, when he gets a regulator) Obviously Menace 11 is not the same story as AoATLAS 6-FB, it cant be the same robot. However, the other Agents have their ATLAS appearances in their backstories, and it doesn't seem fair to exclude the Human Robot, so I have a theory: 

The robot shown in Menace #11 was M-1. The people who were going to pay five million dollars was ATLAS, but they didnt have to because the professor and the manager were both killed. The prototype was recovered by ATLAS and became the foundation of the M-series robots.(As noted in AoATLAS 6-FB, the M-series project was about creating unstoppable war machines, similar to what the robot in Menace #11 turned out to be) As the doctor was working on the eleventh of the series, he noticed a rare opportunity 

By the way, M-11 = Menace 11. Get it? 

How would declaring the robot in Menace #11 a prototype affect the listings? Here are some suggestions: 

HUMAN ROBOT/M-11 
MENACE 11 (prototype) 
AoATLAS 6 (21:3-22)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (20:4)-FB 
AoATLAS 1-FB (1958) 
AoATLAS 3-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (14:4)-FB-FB 
AoATLAS 1 
AoATLAS 2 
AoATLAS 3 
AoATLAS 4 
 
SMF2 4/2 

OR: 

HUMAN ROBOT/PROTOTYPE 
MENACE 11 

HUMAN ROBOT/M-11 
AoATLAS 6 (21:3-22)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (20:4)-FB 
AoATLAS 1-FB (1958) 
AoATLAS 3-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (14:4)-FB-FB 
AoATLAS 1 
AoATLAS 2 
AoATLAS 3 
AoATLAS 4 
 
SMF2 4/2 

OR: 

HUMAN ROBOT/M-1 
MENACE 11 

HUMAN ROBOT/M-11 
AoATLAS 6 (21:3-22)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (20:4)-FB 
AoATLAS 1-FB (1958) 
AoATLAS 3-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (14:4)-FB-FB 
AoATLAS 1 
AoATLAS 2 
AoATLAS 3 
AoATLAS 4 
 
SMF2 4/2 

And, in any of the above cases: 

HUMAN ROBOT II 
WI? 9 
AVF 4 
AVF 5 

Heres a stab at separating the Venus: 

VENUS/APHRODITE/DR. VICTORIA NUTLEY "VICKI" STARR [OLYMPIAN] 
T@ 8 
M/SH3 9-FB 
{SUB-M 57} 
CHAMP 1 
CHAMP 2 
CHAMP 3 
A 283 
A 284 
A 285-BTS 
M/SH3 9 
S-H2 36 
(At some point post-FF 1, the Olympian Venus hears of and begins to impersonate the Siren using her name but misspells the alias) 


VENUS II/VICTORIA STARR [SIREN] 
AoATLAS 5-FB 
{VENUS 1} 
VENUS 2 
VENUS 3 
VENUS 4 
VENUS 5 
VENUS 6 
VENUS 7 
VENUS 8 
VENUS 9 
VENUS 10 
VENUS 11 
VENUS 12 
VENUS 13 
VENUS 14 
VENUS 15 
VENUS 16 
VENUS 17 
VENUS 18 
VENUS 19 
AoATLAS 1-FB (1958) 
M/: LG 5 (1967) 
M/VS 1/3 
AoATLAS 3-FB 
AoATLAS 2 
AoATLAS 3 
AoATLAS 4 
 
SMF2 4/2 
(This Venus could have known Namorita in the 70s, but it was the Olympian that taught her in school post-FF 1) 

And, of course: 

VENUS III 
WI? 9 
AVF 4 
AVF 5 

How does that look? 

As for Thor in the Venus series, I dunno. Red Norville? Whats his story?(I only know him from an issue of Hulk hes a red-haired Thor, right?) 

Marvel Boy to follow!

Last edited by Col_Fury on Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:30 am, edited 2 times in total. 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 10, 2007 8:31 am 
By dimadick

"Red Norville" 

Roger "Red" Norvell debuted in "Thor" vol. 1 #273 (July, 1978) as a regular human entering Asgard with the help of Loki. He only received the power of Thor and became a redhaired duplicate in "Thor" vol. 1 #276 (October, 1978). A bit too late for guest appearances in the Venus series. 

Odin had made provisions in case Thor is needed and his son is unavailable. The Asgardian ruler had stored a copy of the "essence" of Thor within the Iron Gloves of Thor, the Belt of Strength and the Fires of Geirrodur. At this point he needed a Thor to fulfill a Ragnarok-related prophesy and die in combat with Midgard Serpent. 

As a result of the combined machinations of Odin and Loki, Roger put on the gloves and belt. Then entered the fires and emerged with access to the power and essence of Thor. 

He proved sufficiently powerful to best "blondie" in battle and almost killed his counterpart. He was almost insane with power but Sif managed to get through to him and helped restore his sanity. Seeking redemption, Red died in combat with the Midgard Serpent. Allowing for the prophesy to come true with one Thor dying but also one Thor surviving. 

Odin later restored him to life and power. Without the limitation of using the gloves and belt. He still has the essence of Thor regardless of paraphernalia. He has went through deaths and resurrections since then. 

Whether Odin had the ability to further duplicate the essence of Thor and create more concurrently-acting Thors was not specified. Are you suggesting the 1950s Thor was another recipient of the Thor essence?

			*	*	*

Nov 10, 2007 10:48 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Menace #11 shows the creation of the Robot. His creator is pressured by his business manager to finish up quick, so they can be paid five million dollars. The professor doesnt want to hand anything over until the robot is perfected, so the business manager records a command into the robot: kill the man in the room. Later, the professor arrives with the final piece to perfect the robot, a regulator, but before he can install it the robot kills him. The manager comes in to collect the robot so he can turn it over for the money, but since the manager is 'a man in a room', the robot kills him, as well. The robot shuffles off, to go kill a man every time he sees one in a room. 

Agents of ATLAS #6-FB shows the creation of the Human Robot. His creator is told that Mr. Lao wants the M-series robot ready for missions in the morning, but the doctor sees a rare chance with this one. There is no time for another option, so the doctor offers his life(through electrocution) for the crucial encoding required to perfect M-11. Some of his essence will be given to the Robot, but he will be his own being. He will be human, and with the doctors final act, he gives life to the Human Robot. 

This ones trickier. The robot is not named in Menace 11, hes just called the robot.(Hes named later in What if? #9, when he gets a regulator) Obviously Menace 11 is not the same story as AoATLAS 6-FB, it cant be the same robot. However, the other Agents have their ATLAS appearances in their backstories, and it doesn't seem fair to exclude the Human Robot, so I have a theory: 

The robot shown in Menace #11 was M-1. The people who were going to pay five million dollars was ATLAS, but they didnt have to because the professor and the manager were both killed. The prototype was recovered by ATLAS and became the foundation of the M-series robots.(As noted in AoATLAS 6-FB, the M-series project was about creating unstoppable war machines, similar to what the robot in Menace #11 turned out to be) As the doctor was working on the eleventh of the series, he noticed a rare opportunity

By the way, M-11 = Menace 11. Get it?

How would declaring the robot in Menace #11 a prototype affect the listings? Here are some suggestions:

HUMAN ROBOT/M-11
MENACE 11 (prototype)
AoATLAS 6 (21:3-22)-FB
[...]

OR:

HUMAN ROBOT/PROTOTYPE
MENACE 11

HUMAN ROBOT/M-11
AoATLAS 6 (21:3-22)-FB
[...]

OR: 

HUMAN ROBOT/M-1
MENACE 11

HUMAN ROBOT/M-11
AoATLAS 6 (21:3-22)-FB]
[...]

And, in any of the above cases:

HUMAN ROBOT II
WI? 9
AVF 4
AVF 5
<<<

Here's the thing - the creator, who looks exactly the same in both versions, also dies in both versions in completely different ways (choked one-handed in one version as he tries to escape, and serenely and deliberately electrocuted in the other). And the other guy also looks exactly the same as he's a greedy business manager going after $5m in one version - where he also dies, the same way as the professor, after ordering the robot to kill the man in the room - and his Atlas superior berating him to finish because Mr Lao says he's done if the weapons work in the other.

[Plus, as you point out, the robot in that tale wasn't "Human Robot" - it didn't get a name in that story, whatever you conjecture, so it wouldn't qualify for a listing if separated from M-11 or Human Robot II (since WI? 9 did reference the original version, I still say MENACE 11 should be part of that listing).]


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Heres a stab at separating the Venus: 

VENUS/APHRODITE/VICTORIA NUTLEY "VICKI" STAR [OLYMPIAN]
T@ 8
M/SH3 9-FB 
{SUB-M 57} 
CHAMP 1
CHAMP 2
CHAMP 3
A 283
A 284
A 285-BTS
M/SH3 9
S-H2 36
(At some point post-FF 1, the Olympian Venus hears of and begins to impersonate the Siren using her name but misspells the alias)


VENUS II/VICTORIA STARR [SIREN] 
AoATLAS 5-FB
{VENUS 1}
VENUS 2
[..]
AoATLAS 4

SMF2 4/2
(This Venus could have known Namorita in the 70s, but it was the Olympian that taught her in school post-FF 1) 

And, of course: 

VENUS III
WI? 9
AVF 4
AVF 5

How does that look?
<<<

One point - Sub-Mariner #57 and Champions #1 both use "Starr" (as Victoria Nutley "Vicki" Starr in the former and Dr. Victoria Starr in the latter). Either dimadick got Star/Starr back-to-front, or they're both spelt the same way

			*	*	*

Nov 11, 2007 1:05 am 
By dimadick

"Either dimadick got Star/Starr back-to-front, or they're both spelt the same way" 

The former as a result from a previous search for marvel trivia. The site I used has since corrected it.

			*	*	*

Nov 11, 2007 1:19 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

dimadick wrote:
>>>
Are you suggesting the 1950s Thor was another recipient of the Thor essence?
<<<

I guess I was thinking out loud, but kinda. Here's a rough timeline: 

1940s: Blond Kirby Thor
1950s: Red-haired barbarian Thor
1960s: Blond Kirby Thor

We can't really say there were two Ragnaroks in a 20-year span, and that the first and third incarnations were exactly alike, but the second was some weird version...

I seem to remember that it was revealed somewhere that the Asgardians are perceived differently by people. Could we chalk Thor(& Loki) looking strange in the Venus issues up to that?(knowing my memory, it was probably revealed in Earth-X, and therefore unreliable) Or we could just go with differing artistic interpretations. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
One point - Sub-Mariner #57 and Champions #1 both use "Starr" (as Victoria Nutley "Vicki" Starr in the former and Dr. Victoria Starr in the latter). Either dimadick got Star/Starr back-to-front, or they're both spelt the same way
<<<

Got it. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Here's the thing - the creator...
<<<

I see your point in that the robot's plot is referenced in WI? 9, but so was everyone else's. It just seems strange to me to include the robot's ATLAS-era appearance in the WI? listing, where no one else's is. The two stories do have very similar circumstances, and as you said the professor and the doctor die in different ways. Besides, 'old guy with a beard' is '50s shorthand for 'eccentric scientist', they're not the same guy, but they both fit the profile. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
it wouldn't qualify for a listing if separated from M-11 or Human Robot II
<<<

That's probably why I'm leaning towards the top suggestion. 

Still working on Marvel Boy! 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 11, 2007 1:50 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
I seem to remember that it was revealed somewhere that the Asgardians are perceived differently by people. Could we chalk Thor(& Loki) looking strange in the Venus issues up to that?(knowing my memory, it was probably revealed in Earth-X, and therefore unreliable)
<<<

I don't recall any indication of that outside of Earth/Universe/Paradise X. You'd have to suspect that people would tend to see Thor as the red-haired mythological god that the "real" Asgardians occasionally snicker at, rather than "blondie" if that was the case though.


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
One point - Sub-Mariner #57 and Champions #1 both use "Starr" (as Victoria Nutley "Vicki" Starr in the former and Dr. Victoria Starr in the latter). Either dimadick got Star/Starr back-to-front, or they're both spelt the same way
<<<

Got it. 
<<<

And now dimadick's saying that it is Siren=Star, Olympian=Starr...

Incidentally, I took another look at SUB-M 57 and the Champions issues just there - in both cases, the Venus is dependent on her girdle, Cestus, for much of her power (which disappears when she's in her human "Victoria Starr" form in much the same way Mjolnir disappeared when Thor turned into Jake Olson), leaving her helpless when Ares takes it, and at no point does she sing. Venus, in Agents of Atlas, of course has no girdle and her emotion-affecting powers are based on her song, with a milder effect when she's just talking.

Just another note to lock in the which-is-which in that issue.


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
it wouldn't qualify for a listing if separated from M-11 or Human Robot II
<<<
That's probably why I'm leaning towards the top suggestion. 
<<<

That seems to me a bit like linking, say, Vision/"Victor Shade" and Human Torch/Jim Hammond's listings post-AWC 50.

			*	*	*

Nov 11, 2007 10:21 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
I don't recall any indication of that outside of Earth/Universe/Paradise X. You'd have to suspect that people would tend to see Thor as the red-haired mythological god that the "real" Asgardians occasionally snicker at, rather than "blondie" if that was the case though.
<<<

Artistic interpretation it is, then. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
 And now dimadick's saying that it is Siren=Star, Olympian=Starr... 
<<<

I have no way of checking the books, she doesn't use the name in the issue reprinted in the Agents of ATLAS hardback. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Just another note to lock in the which-is-which in that issue. 
<<<

Sweet. 

Marvel Boy:

What if? #23/2
Eons ago, the Celestials arrive on Earth, scoop up a bunch of large brained bipeds and experiment on them. Some are turned into Deviants, some are turned into Eternals, and some are given a nudge to eventually evolve into humans. The Celestials leave, but theyll keep tabs on the planet to see which batch of the three will turn out the best. 

What if? #24/2
The Eternals fight amongst themselves, and eventually Uranos and his crew are banished from Earth for trying to gain control for themselves. Theyre turned into energy and shot into space. Later, Chronos has a lab accident and is turned into cosmic dust. 

What if? #25/2
Zuras has just had a lab accident, and he feels strangely powerful. His dad Chronos shows up, or rather his disembodied head does, and shows him how to do the Uni-Mind. Zuras brother Alars doesnt care for the experience too much, so he flies off into space. 

What if? #26/3
A ball of energy in space lands on a Kree outpost on Uranus and turns into a group of Eternals, Uranos and his crew. They fight and destroy a Kree Sentry, then go exploring. Elsewhere, an alarm goes off so some Kree go to investigate their weapons depot

What if? #27/2
Uranos and his crew explore the Kree weapons depot and find a pair of Quantum Bands, along with some other weapons and cool stuff. Uranos has a ship built so they can go back to Earth and take control, and eventually he and a couple of others leave. The erst stay behind on Uranus. On their way to Earth theyre intercepted by some Kree coming to check on their outpost, and theyre shot down. 

What if? #28/3
Uranos and his mini crew float in space after their new ship has been destroyed, the Kree take one of them and leave. The others join together and land on one of Saturns moons. They decide to just stay there and build a new place and call it Titan. Later, the Kree return to their homeworld and present the body they found to the Supreme Intelligence. They surmise that the Celestials have been experimenting on the creatures of Earth, so they go themselves and begin their own experiments, which will eventually become the Inhumans. 

What if? #29/2
Black Bolt meets Ikaris, and its discovered that Black Bolts worried about being discovered by humanity. So the Eternals get together to create the Great Refuge so their new buddies the Inhumans can hide away. 

What if? #30/2
After Black Bolt returns home and consoles a little girl, the Inhumans move their city into the Great Refuge. 

*

What all that means in relation to Marvel Boy, in brief, is that the Eternals banished some criminals to space, and they eventually landed on Uranus. They find a bunch of Kree weapons, among them are the Quantum Bands. Some left, some stayed. Thats it. 

Marvel Boy #1
Pg1-pg5pn3
Count Varron has discovered a new continent on Earth. Meanwhile on Uranus, Prof. Matt Grayson tells his son Bob how they ended up on Uranus. 
Pg5pn4-pg6pn3-FB
Unhappy with the changes his German government is going through, Matt Grayson pulls out his rocket ship and he takes his son Bob and flies off into space. Hes pulled to Uranus where the Uranians greet him and welcome him into their colonist society. 
Pg6pn4-pg12
Bob is given a costume, wrist bands, and a flying saucer and sent to Earth.(somehow, Matt has heard that a new continent has been discovered) When Marvel Boy arrives he discovers that the new continent has its own inhabitants, but it sinks back intot he ocean, hiding the inhabitants and killing Varron. 

Marvel Boy #1/3
Marvel Boys fights and defeats the Great Video, the man with eyes of death. 
(thats funny, Amazing Fantasy v2 #15 had a short story called the Great Video, which was almost a remake of this, just without Marvel Boy)

*

AoATLAS 3 (15)-FB 
Basically a repeat of most of the above, but there are a few new scenes of Bob as a kid, then him getting his equipment from the Eternals. No problems yet, either. 

AoATLAS 3 (16:1-16:2)-FB 
This repeats the 1958 mission & Bob & Jimmy parting ways, from issue 1 & 2, respectively. Again, no new information. 

AoATLAS 3 (16:3)-FB 
Shortly afterwards, Marvel Boy is contacted by the Uranian colonists, and he agrees to build an embassy for them on Earth. 

AoATLAS 3 (16:4)-FB 
Shortly afterwards, while Marvel Boy is overhauling M-11, the colonists call Marvel Boy and tell him theyre being bombarded by radiation from the planets core. 

AoATLAS 3 (16:5)-FB 
Marvel Boy arrives at Uranus while the colonists city is destroyed. With the city gone, an inhibitor protocol in his headband stops working, and he learns a few new things about the colonists. 

AoATLAS 3 (17:1-17:2)-FB-FB
The colonists are actually Eternal criminals, and they arent the only creatures on the planet. The native Uranians are jellyfish-like creatures and they live in the planets core. They make a deal to co-exist on the planet. 

AoATLAS 3 (17:3)-FB-FB
Prof. Grayson and his son contact the colonists from his spaceship. 

AoATLAS 3 (17:4)
Generic shot of Marvel Boy. Narration says that theyll use Marvel Boy to give them a good name on Earth, and maybe the colonists will be invited back.(what they dont realize is that an invitation wouldnt matter, theyre not allowed back at all) If their plan doesnt work, though, they need a backup plan. 

AoATLAS 3 (17:5-17:7)-FB-FB
A second Marvel Boy, this one called the Crusader is created from one of the colonists. Hes given Bobs memories, and hes similar in age and physical type to Bob. Hes given a different set of Quantum Bands and put into stasis. 

AoATLAS 3 (18:1-18:4)-FB
Bob wanders around the ruins of the city and is contacted by the native Uranians. Hes allowed into their communal society, and finds where the Crusader was kept. 

AoATLAS 3 (18:5-18:6)-FB-FB
The Crusader gets out of his broken stasis chamber and leaves for Earth, but his stasis wasnt finished and hes mentally unstable. 

AoATLAS 3 (18:7)-FB-FB
Repeat of FF 165, no new information. 

AoATLAS 3 (19:1)-FB
Bob lives with the native Uranians and passes the time by building a new spaceship. 

*

This establishes that the Crusader in FF 164 & 165 was a different character, and not Bob Grayson. He had some of Bobs memories, but hes mentally unstable, explaining his actions in those FF issues. This also works off the WI? backups, reinforcing that the colonists in the Marvel Boy & Astonishing issues were Eternals, and criminals at that. No problems!

Fantastic Four 165 (2:6-2:8)-FB
Dr. Grayson tries to get a loan to finish his rocket ship, but hes denied. He vows to find a way to finish it without the money. 

Fantastic Four 165 (9:5-10:2)-FB
Grayson & his son Bob arrive at Uranus. 

Fantastic Four 165 (10:3)-FB
Bob grows up on Uranus. (10:4)-FB is repeated from Marvel Boy #1. 

Fantastic Four 165 (10:4-11:7)-FB
The Crusader, shortly after hes arrived on Earth, tries to get a loan for medical supplies but is denied. He returns to Uranus to find the colony had already been destroyed, goes crazy, and goes back to Earth. 

Fantastic Four 164
The Crusader arrives in New York and tears up the place. Hes confronted by the Fantastic Four. 

Fantastic Four 165
The Crusaders bands overload and he explodes. 

Thunderbolts Annual 2000 has an appearance by the Crusaders soul in the afterlife. 

*

All of the above works just fine together. The Eternals sends some criminals into space, they eventually settle on Uranus, strike up a deal with the locals and build a colony. The Graysons arrive and move in, the kid eventually becomes Marvel Boy. Theres a backup Marvel Boy created, called the Crusader. Marvel Boy has some adventures on Earth, joins Jimmys team, and one day he comes home, the colony has been destroyed. He joins them while the Crusader eventually makes his way to Earth, he then goes home to find it already destroyed. He goes back to Earth and dies fighting the Fantastic Four, his soul is later seen in the afterlife. But where/how does Quasar 2 fit? 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Re: Quasar #2, basically is the previous explanation for how they were destroyed (Quasar #1 was a flashback/origin issue, and #2 picks up "several years later", in the then-present day, after he's spent a good long while flying to Uranus in suspended animation. There, he meets Deathurge, who fills him in on what happened to them (a version which I believe is consistent with those WI? backups - since, y'know, Greunwald wrote both'n'all  ). Basically, the Uranians were a peaceful, learning obsessed-people, and they learned so much that they had nothing to aim for and thus nothing to live for. After a few millenia of this, they pulled Bob Grayson & his dad from Earth so they could figure out how to die (Eternals, y'know), and once they had that, they asked Deathurge, who found them because they had an urge to die, to smash their life-support dome, and he obliged (since, as Quasar proved later in the issue after Eon gave him a new job, he could only kill people who were already suicidal).
<<<

Was all of that expository dialogue? Because Im not seeing Q 2-FB in Deathurges listing. Im not sure how to square that with everything else, since it all fits pretty nicely without Q 2. The Uranian Eternals were probably peaceful after millennia of being stranded on Uranus, they had learned their lesson. They were also most likely learning obsessed, there was really nothing else to do. But suicidal? And thats the reason they allowed Bob & his dad to live there?(maybe Deathurge made his own conjectures or something. I dont know) Its revealed in Q 2 that Deathurge was responsible for destroying the colony. AoATLAS implies that the natives were responsible. Q 2 says that the dome was smashed, and AoATLAS 3-FB says they were pummeled them with radiation. Maybe the natives convinced Deathurge that the Eternal colonists were suicidal? And he doused them in radiation and smashed the dome? 

Anyway, after years of living with the native Uranians underground, Bob is contacted by Ken, and he heads off to appear in Agents of ATLAS. 

Some placement suggestions: 

MARVEL BOY III/ROBERT GRAYSON 
AoATLAS 3 (15:1)-FB 
MB 1 (5:4-5:7)-FB 
AoATLAS 3 (17:3)-FB-FB 
FF 165 (9:5-10:2)-FB 
MB 1 (6:1-6:3)-FB 
AoATLAS 3 (15:3)-FB 
FF 165 (10:3)-FB 
{MB 1} (1-7:4) 
AoATLAS 3 (15:4)-FB 
MB 1 (7:5-12) 
MB 1/3 
MB 2 
MB 2/2 
MB 2/4 
AST 3 
AST 3/2 
AST 3/4 
AST 4 
AST 4/2 
AST 4/4 
AST 5 
AST 5/2 
AST 5/5 
AST 6 
AST 6/2 
AST 6/4 
AoATLAS 1-FB (1958) 
AoATLAS 2-FB (1959) 
AoATLAS 3 (16:3-16:5)-FB 
AoATLAS 3 (18:1-18:4)-FB 
AoATLAS 3 (19:1-19:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 5 (7:3)-FB 
AoATLAS 3 (19:3)-FB 
AoATLAS 1 
AoATLAS 2 
AoATLAS 3 
AoATLAS 4 
 
SMF2 4/2 

CRUSADER 
AoATLAS 3 (17:5-17:7)-FB-FB 
AoATLAS 3 (18:5-18:6)-FB-FB 
FF 165-FB 
FF 164 
FF 165 
TB '00 

MARVEL BOY IV/ROBERT GRAYSON 
WI? 9 
AVF 4 
AVF 5 

And of course, all subsequent Marvel Boys should be moved up one notation each. 

GRAYSON, DR. MATTHEW HORACE 
FF 165 (6:2-6:8)-FB 
AoATLAS 3 (15:1)-FB 
MB 1 (5:4-5:7)-FB 
AoATLAS 3 (17:3)-FB-FB 
FF 165 (9:5-10:2)-FB 
MB 1 (6:1-6:3)-FB 
AoATLAS 3 (15:3)-FB 
FF 165 (10:3)-FB 
MB 1 
MB 2 
AST 3/2 
AST 4/2 
AST 5/5 
AST 6 

DEATHURGE 
AoATLAS 3-FB-BTS |cf Q 2| 
M/TIO 72 
A 248 
A 249 
Q 2 
Q 21-FB 


Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 11, 2007 11:29 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Two things on MB. One, the Quasar FB pages (note the unanglicised name of MB's dad): 
   
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s160/antmanvillains/Quasar2-UranusFB1.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s160/antmanvillains/Quasar2-UranusFB2.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s160/antmanvillains/Quasar2-UranusFB3.jpg

In addition, the "flash-frozen" bodies of the colonists were lying about in the present day earlier in the issue (along with the Kree Sentry's head) 

And two, didn't you just say some of the colonists left Uranus? After an extended time, yet? Doesn't that contradict AoAtlas #3?

			*	*	*

Nov 12, 2007 12:02 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

The rest of the current day stuff: 

WOO, JAMES JIMMY/WOO YEN JET 
 
AoATLAS 4 
AoATLAS 5 
AoATLAS 6 (3:3-3:6)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (4-6:1)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (1-2) 
AoATLAS 6 (6:3-7:1)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (9:5-11:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (11:4-13:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (13:4-14:3)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (14:5-18)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 
SMF2 4/2 

GORILLA MAN/KENNETH KEN HALE 
 
AoATLAS 4 
AoATLAS 5 
AoATLAS 6 (3:3-3:6)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (4-6:1)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (1-2) 
AoATLAS 6 (6:3-7:1)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (9:5-11:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (11:4-13:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (13:4-14:3)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (14:5-18)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 
SMF2 4/2 

HUMAN ROBOT/M-11 
 
AoATLAS 4 
AoATLAS 5 
AoATLAS 6 (3:3-3:6)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (4-6:1)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (1-2) 
AoATLAS 6 (6:3-7:1)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (9:5-11:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (11:4-13:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (13:4-14:3)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (14:5-18)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 
SMF2 4/2 

MARVEL BOY III/ROBERT GRAYSON 
 
AoATLAS 4 
AoATLAS 5 
AoATLAS 6 (3:3-3:6)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (4-6:1)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (1-2) 
AoATLAS 6 (6:3-7:1)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (9:5-11:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (11:4-13:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (13:4-14:3)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (14:5-18)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 
SMF2 4/2 

VENUS II/VICTORIA STARR [SIREN] 
 
AoATLAS 4 
AoATLAS 5 
AoATLAS 6 (3:3-3:6)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (4-6:1)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (1-2) 
AoATLAS 6 (6:3-7:1)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (9:5-11:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (11:4-13:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (13:4-14:3)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (14:5-18)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 
SMF2 4/2 

NAMORA/AQUARIA NAUTICA NEPTUNIA [ATLANTEAN] 
 
AoATLAS 4 
AoATLAS 5 
AoATLAS 6 (3:3-3:6)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (4-6:1)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (1-2) 
AoATLAS 6 (6:3-7:1)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (9:5-11:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (11:4-13:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (13:4-14:3)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (14:5-18)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 
SMF2 4/2 

YELLOW CLAW/GOLDEN CLAW/TZING JAO/PLAN CHU/"BHAGWAN SRI ANANDA" 
 
AoATLAS 4 
AoATLAS 5 
AoATLAS 6 (9:5-11:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (11:4-13:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (13:4-14:3)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (14:5-18)-FB 

KHANATA, DEREK 
 
AoATLAS 4 
AoATLAS 5 
AoATLAS 6 (3:3-3:6)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (4-6:1)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (1-2) 
AoATLAS 6 (6:3-7:1)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (9:5-11:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (11:4-13:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (13:4-14:3)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (14:5-18)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 



Somebody wrote:
>>>
One, the Quasar FB pages (note the unanglicised name of MB's dad): 
<<<

Thanks for the scans. I see the page numbers at the bottom, but what pages are they without the advertisements? 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
In addition, the "flash-frozen" bodies of the colonists were lying about in the present day earlier in the issue (along with the Kree Sentry's head)
<<<

That's not a problem. The bodies were still laying around when the Crusader found them(in FF 165-FB) as well.(I guess Bob & the Uranians didn't feel like cleaning up) The Crusader went crazy when he found them and left pretty quickly, not stopping to clean up either, so the bodies should still be laying about in the then current day. Also, the Eternals probably kept the Kree Sentry's head as a souvenir. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
And two, didn't you just say some of the colonists left Uranus? After an extended time, yet? Doesn't that contradict AoAtlas #3?<<<

Nope. The Eternals arrived on Uranus, some of them built a ship and left to eventually found Titan. That part of the group was only there long enough to find the weapons and build the ship.(a month or two, at most) They never returned. The Eternals that stayed were the 'colonists'. 

Give me a bit to read through the Quasar pages, and we'll see what I can come up with.

Last edited by Col_Fury on Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:42 am, edited 3 times in total. 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 12, 2007 12:04 am 
By Enda80

As Horace Grabsfield, MB's father appeared in one of those Evolutionary War back-ups in 1988.

			*	*	*

Nov 12, 2007 12:26 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

In AoATLAS 3 (16:4)-FB, someone contacts Marvel Boy, telling him they're in trouble and asks for his help. After having read through the Quasar stuff, I'll say that the voice contacting Marvel Boy was his dad. The Eternal colonists shared their findings with him, and he was moved by it, but I don't think he understood that they were suicidal. When the colony was being destroyed he called Marvel Boy for help, unaware that the destruction was on purpose. I think that's the only way to square everything. 


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
As Horace Grabsfield, MB's father appeared in one of those Evolutionary War back-ups in 1988.
<<<

Does anyone know which issue he's talking about? 

Here are some updated suggestions. I'll edit in the page/panel ranges for Quasar 2 later.(Done!) Also, when we find out what Annual that was, I'll check it out and edit that in, as well.(Done!) 

MARVEL BOY III/ROBERT GRAYSON 
Q 2 (10:4)-FB 
AoATLAS 3 (15:1)-FB 
MB 1 (5:4-5:7)-FB 
AoATLAS 3 (17:3)-FB-FB 
FF 165 (9:5-10:2)-FB 
MB 1 (6:1-6:3)-FB 
Q 2 (10:5)-FB 
AoATLAS 3 (15:3)-FB 
FF 165 (10:3)-FB 
{MB 1} (1-7:4) 
AoATLAS 3 (15:4)-FB 
MB 1 (7:5-12) 
MB 1/3 
MB 2 
MB 2/2 
MB 2/4 
AST 3 
AST 3/2 
AST 3/4 
AST 4 
AST 4/2 
AST 4/4 
AST 5 
AST 5/2 
AST 5/5 
AST 6 
AST 6/2 
AST 6/4 
Q 2 (10:7)-FB 
AoATLAS 1-FB (1958) 
AoATLAS 2-FB (1959) 
AoATLAS 3 (16:3-16:5)-FB 
AoATLAS 3 (18:1-18:4)-FB 
AoATLAS 3 (19:1-19:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 5 (7:3)-FB 
AoATLAS 3 (19:3)-FB 
AoATLAS 1 
AoATLAS 2 
AoATLAS 3 
AoATLAS 4 
AoATLAS 5 
AoATLAS 6 (3:3-3:6)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (4-6:1)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (1-2) 
AoATLAS 6 (6:3-7:1)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (9:5-11:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (11:4-13:2)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (13:4-14:3)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 (14:5-18)-FB 
AoATLAS 6 
SMF2 4/2 

CRUSADER 
AoATLAS 3 (17:5-17:7)-FB-FB 
AoATLAS 3 (18:5-18:6)-FB-FB 
FF 165 (10:5-10:8)-FB 
Q 2 (11:3)-FB 
FF 165 (11:1-11:7)-FB 
FF 164 
Q 2 (11:4)-FB 
FF 165 
TB '00 

GRAYSON, DR. MATTHEW/HORACE GRABSHEID 
Q 2 (10:3-10:4)-FB 
AoATLAS 3 (15:1)-FB 
FF 165 (6:2-6:8)-FB 
SS@ 1/4 
MB 1 (5:4-5:7)-FB 
AoATLAS 3 (17:3)-FB-FB 
FF 165 (9:5-10:2)-FB 
MB 1 (6:1-6:3)-FB 
Q 2 (10:5)-FB 
AoATLAS 3 (15:3)-FB 
Q 2 (10:6)-FB 
FF 165 (10:3)-FB 
MB 1 
MB 2 
AST 3/2 
AST 4/2 
AST 5/5 
AST 6 
AoATLAS 3 (16:4)-FB-VO 

DEATHURGE 
Q 2-FB 
M/TIO 72 
A 248 
A 249 
Q 2 
Q 21-FB 
 

That's teamwork, guys! 

Last edited by Col_Fury on Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:00 am, edited 5 times in total. 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 12, 2007 7:05 am 
By Enda80

Silver Surfer Annual #1 
Herbert Wyndham and Jonathan Drew began construction of a small research laboratory on a tract of land inherited by Jonathan's wife Merriem on Wundagore Mountain, Transia. During construction, the two discovered deposits of uranium. The two decided to mine the ore to finance the construction of their research station. With money as no object, they contracted German astrophysicist Horace Grabshield to design their "Citadel of Science," who designed the citadel to be space worthy.

			*	*	*

Nov 12, 2007 4:24 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I'm too tired by three-quarters to make any substantive reply just now, so one minor thing: Why are you skipping AoAtlas 6 (6:4)-FB in the listings? The Claw/oldWoo/minion bit is a -FB-FB, the equivalent of having a TV on-panel, with Bob's single -FB head in the foreground generating the image

			*	*	*

Nov 13, 2007 12:31 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Silver Surfer Annual #1
<<<

Thanks. 


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Herbert Wyndham and Jonathan Drew began construction of a small research laboratory on a tract of land inherited by Jonathan's wife Merriem on Wundagore Mountain, Transia. During construction, the two discovered deposits of uranium. The two decided to mine the ore to finance the construction of their research station. With money as no object, they contracted German astrophysicist Horace Grabshield to design their "Citadel of Science," who designed the citadel to be space worthy.
<<<

That's pretty much right, but you're spelling his name wrong. In the Quasar scan above, and in the issue you've just recapped, it's spelled 'Horace Grabsheid'. 

This has to go after the Uranian colonists e-mail Bob's dad the schematics, it's most likely after he's run out of money and is denied a loan, and it has to be before he shoots himself into space. I've edited my above suggestion. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Why are you skipping AoAtlas 6 (6:4)-FB in the listings?
<<<

'Oops' was the reason.  I went ahead and fixed it. 

As for the page numbers for Quasar 2, I compared a bunch of Marvel issues cover dated November 1989 to see how the numbering lined up. In every one I looked at,(which was like, eleven or twelve) story page 10 lined up with printed page 14. Given that, I'm assuming the three pages you scanned are story pages 9, 10, & 11, and I edited the page/panel ranges as such in my suggestion above. If that's wrong, please let me know.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 13, 2007 6:26 am 
By dimadick

"The Eternals arrived on Uranus, some of them built a ship and left to eventually found Titan. That part of the group was only there long enough to find the weapons and build the ship.(a month or two, at most) They never returned. The Eternals that stayed were the 'colonists'. " 

The faction which moved to Titan reportedly included Uranos himself. According to "New Defenders" #138 (December, 1984), the Dragon of the Moon eventually killed them by manipulating them to lay war on each other. 

According to "Captain Marvel" vol. 1 #29 (November, 1973), the only survivor was Sui-San. She was discovered there by Mentor/Alars and mated with him to give birth to a new generation of Eternals of Titan. With Thanos and Starfox/Eros their better known children. 

I am not sure if the age of Sui-San has ever been clarified enough to know if she should get appearances with the flashbacks to the adventures of Uranos and his followers on Earth, Uranus and Titan.

			*	*	*

Nov 13, 2007 9:51 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, I've placed AoATLAS in current continuity, early during the Civil War. Dum Dum appears here shortly after CA5 22-FB and T'Challa appears in issue #6 after CW 3 and several days before his wedding in BP4 18. 

SMF2 4, which follows AoATLAS, is placed between the time Spidey revealed his identity (explaining how Gorilla Man knows it) and before he turned against Stark. The costume is version 2.0 of the Iron Spidey costume in classic mode, and the apartment is a Stark pad that Peter and M.J. were occupying for a weekend to take a break from the Tower. 

A big thanks to those who've contributed to the conversation!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 13, 2007 10:22 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I'm sure there was something more I wanted to say on the Venus/MB stuff, but I can't think what it is right now and I don't have time to look stuff up... 

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Okay, I've placed AoATLAS in current continuity, early during the Civil War. Dum Dum appears here shortly after CA5 22-FB 
<<<

Is that the scene with Carter walking in on a just-patched up Dugan?


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
SMF2 4, which follows AoATLAS, is placed between the time Spidey revealed his identity (explaining how Gorilla Man knows it)
<<<

As I said before, Gorilla Man doesn't know Spider-Man's secret ID, he just knows of Spider-Man. Given that the others have (a) been reset to 50 years ago (2) been in a remote region of southern Africa for ten years and been out of the US in general since the 1980s (iii) have been on an alien planet for the past 40+ years (d) have been frozen in ice for over 30 years and (E) talks only once in a blue moon, he's simply the only one who's ever heard of Spider-Man full-stop and would share the info. 

I'm not repudiating the placement on that basis, since unless Joe Quesada is visited by the Ghost of Spider-Man's Marriage tomorrow night there's no place post-CW for it to go, and Peter can't buy tickets to the theatre and openly take MJ after he becomes a fugitive, I just don't want the placement resting on a misunderstanding.

			*	*	*

Nov 14, 2007 3:58 am 
By JLH

I'm starting to get the feeling the guy who wrote "Agents of Atlas" and the guy who writes "X-Men: First Class" are related in some way... 

			*	*	*

Nov 14, 2007 4:58 am 
By Somebody
Director

And I heard a credible rumour of an AoAt sequel the other week... 

			*	*	*

Nov 14, 2007 5:01 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Really? Don't tease, man. I'd love to see more Agents!

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 14, 2007 6:33 am 
By Somebody
Director

Oh, I know nothing, it's second-hand from someone I believe could know but I don't know that they know, y'know.  And all they said was that Parker was working on an AoAt sequel, and they thought it had been announced. 

In other words, I'm inclined to believe them, but I'm not promising that it's definitely going to happen 

			*	*	*

Nov 14, 2007 7:03 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
As I said before, Gorilla Man doesn't know Spider-Man's secret ID, he just knows of Spider-Man. 
<<<

Ah, I missed that somehow -- still going from the original analysis. Sorry.

I don't suppose it makes much of a difference for the placement I gave SMF2 4/2. From the sound of it, knowledge of Peter's identity isn't a factor one way or another here...right?

But, as you note, it should be before Spidey becomes a fugitive, so the costume is Iron Spidey 2.0.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Is that the scene with Carter walking in on a just-patched up Dugan? 
<<<

That's the one. Let's see...face bandaged, arm in a cast...point taken. So maybe not so shortly after, unless SHIELD has some high-tech medical supplies that accelerate healing. For Dum Dum's sake, AoATLAS would ideally be pushed to a later date, after T'Challa's honeymoon. There's still a window there before Peter turns on Stark.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 14, 2007 7:29 am 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
I don't suppose it makes much of a difference for the placement I gave SMF2 4/2. From the sound of it, knowledge of Peter's identity isn't a factor one way or another here...right?
<<<

Well, no-one's reacting to him in civvies *shrugs* 

Not a significant factor, no. 

And can you post how you have Stamford, New Avengers #21 and that Cap #22 FB dated relative to each other right now?

			*	*	*

Nov 15, 2007 7:02 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
And can you post how you have Stamford, New Avengers #21 and that Cap #22 FB dated relative to each other right now?
<<<

Day one: Stamford 
Day two: Eric kicks Dugan in the crotch in IAM 6-FB (4-16) 
Day three: Cap rebels in CW 1 
Day four: Dugan encounters the rogue Cap in A4 21 (1-9) and then is shown injured from the battle in CA5 22-FB (8-9)

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Subject: November call for analyses

Nov 01, 2007 9:19 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Is it just me, or are the months passing more quickly these days? Anyway, here's my updated call for November. I plan to update the calendar once World War Hulk and One More Day are done, so if analyses for completed stories could be posted soon, I'll work them in to the new edition. 

Completed stories (as of 10/31/07) 
Annihilation: Conquest  Quasar #1-4 (JLH) 
Annihilation: Conquest  Star-Lord #1-4 (Somebody) 
Annihilation: Conquest  Wraith #1-4 (JLH) 
Books of Doom #1-6 (Eric) 
Daredevil Annual v2 #1 (Kevin) 
Daredevil: Battlin Jack Murdock #1-4 
Daughters of the Dragon #1-6 (JD) 
Eternals v3 #1-7 (Eric) 
Ghost Rider: Trail of Tears #1-6 (JLH) 
Mystic Arcana: Black Knight (JLH) 
Mystic Arcana: Scarlet Witch (JLH) 
Spider-Man Family #5 (JLH) 
Wisdom #1-6 (Paul O.) 
X-23: Target X #1-6 (Paul O.) 

Future stuff 
Annihilation: Conquest #1-6 (JLH) 
Daredevil v2 #101-105 
Foolkiller v2 #1-5 
Franklin Richards: Fall Football Fiasco 
Ghost Rider v5 #14-19 (JLH) 
Ghost Rider Annual v2 #1 (JLH) 
House of M: Avengers #1-5 
Howard the Duck v? #1-4 (JLH) 
Hulk vs. Fin Fang Foom (JLH) 
Immortal Iron Fist #10-14 (Don) 
Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin #1-6 (Col_Fury) 
Marvel Holiday Special (JLH) 
Moon Knight v5 #14-19 
Moon Knight Annual #1 
Nova v4 #8-9 (Somebody) 
Nova v4 #10 (Somebody) 
Omega the Unknown v2 #1-10 
Punisher v7 #51-54 (Col_Fury) 
Runaways v2 #25-30 (JD) 
Silver Surfer: In Thy Name #1-4 
Spider-Man Family #6 (JLH) 
Spider-Man/Red Sonja #1-4 
Wolverine v3 #57-61 (Col_Fury) 
Wolverine: Firebreak (Col_Fury) 
Wolverine: Origins #19-20 (Col_Fury) 
Wolverine: Origins #21-25 (Col_Fury) 
Zombie: Simon Garth #1-4 

Any help that people can provide would be greatly appreciated. As always, thanks to all who post on this forum! 

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:48 pm, edited 10 times in total. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 01, 2007 9:25 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

You can put me down for Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 1-6 & Wolverine: Firebreak. 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Mystic Arcana: Sister Grimm (JD) -- out yet?
<<<

Next week. 

Dude, it's not sticky this time. 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 02, 2007 1:56 am 
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Daredevil: Battlin Jack Murdock #1-4
<<<

This is a "Year One" story retracing DD's father's life, so it's out of the bounds of the calendar. I'd volunteer for it, but I need to get my hands on DD:Yellow first...

			*	*	*

Nov 02, 2007 3:21 am 
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Hulk vs. Fin Fang Foom
Marvel Holiday Special
<<<

I don't think I have enough to do! So sign me up for these!

			*	*	*

Nov 02, 2007 6:06 am 
By Somebody
Director

And, with all three of the final minis running late, Star-Lord #4's not till next week either.

			*	*	*

Nov 06, 2007 1:40 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Daredevil Annual v2 #1
<<<

I'm not volunteering, yet, but I'm not sure if this will be placeable for your planned update. This reads like it falls between two issues of Daredevil, but between two issues that haven't been published yet. Until those issues come out, though, I don't think an analysis will do us much good. 

It's possible that the placement will become apparent with the next issue or so, but that won't be until the end of November or December, if even then. 

Just a heads-up, that's all. 

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 06, 2007 7:09 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Just a heads-up, that's all. 
<<<

I appreciate it!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 20, 2007 12:33 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

>>>
Daredevil Annual v2 #1 
<<<

I'll sign up to do this.


>>>
This reads like it falls between two issues of Daredevil, but between two issues that haven't been published yet. Until those issues come out, though, I don't think an analysis will do us much good.
<<<

That's possible, though another thought: It could fall inbetween flashback scenes in DD2 #94, (The "Love Story" issue - don't the flashbacks in that issue spread out over weeks?). 

So you still on all "World War Hulk" fallout titles for the foreseeable future, Paul?

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Nov 20, 2007 12:41 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
It could fall inbetween flashback scenes in DD2 #94, (The "Love Story" issue - don't the flashbacks in that issue spread out over weeks?).
<<<

It could and they do, but him being in the middle of a fight with Yakuza and the 'it's been a busy week' line make me think this will be led into and followed up on. I dunno, maybe I'm just channeling the recent Brubaker Iron Fist Annual...

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 20, 2007 7:11 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
So you still on all "World War Hulk" fallout titles for the foreseeable future, Paul?
<<<

Yes, and thanks for volunteering to take Daredevil Annual.Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Subject: What The--?! #10, first story

After promising this review approximately six months ago, here it is! 

What The-?! #10 
January 1991 
first story 
Ill Be Doom For Christmas 
by Lobdell and Byrne 

The quick backstory here is, this is one of a very small handful of stories that, despite appearing in What The-?!, could conceivably be canon. All of the characters are referred to by their correct names and drawn in their correct outfits (What The-?! usually parodies everyones names and costumes), there are no over-the-top sight gags, and everybody stays more or less in character. 

(It should be noted that the entire story is told in rhyme: the narration all rhymes, and when the characters speak, their lines fit into the rhyme. However, this same storytelling trick was used in a story in the 2004 Marvel Holiday Special, and I dont recall anyone saying that IT couldnt be canon  I tend to regard the rhyming scheme as a storytelling device rather than taking it literally, and in that case it wouldnt be a barrier to canonicity.) 

So I guess the final test is: does it fit anywhere in continuity? 

You tell me 

APPEARANCES: 
Dr. Doom 
Santa Claus 
Santas reindeer (at least five  none named, but one had a big red nose) 
Quasar 
Captain America 
Speedball 
Human Torch II 
Thing 
Invisible Woman 
Mr. Fantastic 
several sickly orphans 

SYNOPSIS: 
On Christmas Eve, Dr. Dooms intruder alarm goes off. Dashing to the roof, he discovers that his security devices have caught  Santa Claus! Santa, wounded, convinces Doom that he must take his place and deliver toys to the worlds children. Santa promises Doom his hearts desire, and Doom begrudgingly agrees. Donning a Santa suit, he delivers presents to Avengers Mansion  and notes that although the Avengers have presents for Kang, Immortus and Ultron under their tree, they have nothing for him. Leaving, he is shadowed by Cap and Quasar, who are joined by Speedball, who was bouncing by and wanted to see what was going on. Doom then delivers gifts to Four Freedoms Plaza, but the FF discover him and attack. The battle spills out onto the street, and Cap, Quasar and Speedball join in  until, landing in front of an orphanage, the heroes are stopped in their tracks by a little girl asking why they were beating up Santa Claus. 

The heroes are at a loss  until the silence is eventually broken by Doom, who proclaims that they are his helpers. Then, ashamed, everyone stops fighting and treats the orphanage to an impromptu Christmas party. The little girl seen earlier gives Doom her raggedy teddy bear as a Christmas gift. 

Weeks later, Santa is healed up enough to leave Castle Doom. He asks Doom about the wish he promised, and Doom replies that its been taken care of. As a puzzled Santa leaves, we see Doom hugging the teddy bear, smiling. 

NOTES: 
Okay, so there are some silly bits in this story. On page one, Doom is sleeping next to a hearth with a skull on top of it wearing a Santa hat, and an enormous stocking (labeled Victor) hung up. Castle Doom is enormously tall and has signs on it like No Vacancy and Built By Kirby Kastle Kompany. And the high-tech security device that Santa is caught in is a giant bear trap. Also, at the very end, when Doom is smiling and holding the bear  his *mask* is smiling. Its kind of creepy. 

Other than those sight gags, though, nothing here is really a deal-breaker. The presents for villains under the Avengers tree can be written off as a team joke (the Ultron gift is an oilcan!), and although I dont buy that the Marvel version of Santa Claus is underpowered enough to be caught by Dooms security devices  I *do* believe that hes *wily* enough to concoct the entire scenario to teach Doom a valuable lesson about Christmas. Dooms behavior in this issue, from agreeing to wear a Santa suit to hugging a teddy bear, can also be written off as his being mildly and subtlely ensorcelled by Santa. 

So  on to placement clues. Its Christmas Eve and morning, but the Marvel Universe has about sixteen of those a year. Dr. Doom and Captain America are in their standard costumes. Speedball is in his original Ditko costume. Quasar is in the costume he wore at the start of his series  with a shield-like emblem on his chest with two red lines running horizontally through it. The FF wear dark blue costumes with white collars and belts. Sue Richards has extremely short hair with a puffy front. And Santa is Santa. 

I have ZERO ideas for placement in this area, so if anyone can think of anything  shout it out! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Nov 19, 2007 3:10 am 
By Somebody
Director

Even if, taken in isolation, the story could be in-continuity, wouldn't it fall victim to "Professor X & the X-Men #4" syndrome? [i.e., "it's published in a series of non-canon stories, ergo it isn't canon"].

			*	*	*

Nov 19, 2007 1:22 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Why would it have to? 

Recall that PXX #4 also conflicts with canon events. It was, for a while, in the MCP, but was bumped out by -- I believe -- the events of X-Men #-1. 

(Also, for what it's worth, the Marvel Handbooks recognize Spider-Ham's adventure in the pages of "What The-?!" as part of *his* personal chronology...) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Nov 19, 2007 6:22 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Recall that PXX #4 also conflicts with canon events. It was, for a while, in the MCP, but was bumped out by -- I believe -- the events of X-Men #-1.
<<<

Not exactly. I added PXX 4 because it was the only issue I had, at the time. I hadn't realized that the other issues weren't canon. It was taken out when we determined the series wasn't canon. 


watching: 24

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

Nov 19, 2007 7:37 pm 
By jephyork
Director

In that case, what's your opinion on the notion that one story from a generally non-canon series might potentially be canon? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Nov 19, 2007 8:00 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Well, let's think about this. 

What The?! is, for practical purposes, an anthology title, right? 

Are there not other instances of anthology titles where some stories were canon, and others not? I'm thinking here of Marvel Super Special, and perhaps some of the black and white magazines of the seventies. 

Also note that there's an appearance by the Avengers in an issue of Not Brand Ecch that was recently judged to be canon. 

Make of that what you will. 


watching: heroes

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

Nov 19, 2007 8:17 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Good distinction. "Professor X and the X-Men" contained stories that all took place, one after another, in the same universe -- which was categorically NOT the Marvel Universe. 

"What The--?!" contains a bunch of short comedy vignettes, which DON'T seem to all take place in one single universe. 

Also, I just remembered that Captain Ultra appears in some "What The--?!" issues, doing his usual "lame hero" schtick. 

Hmmmmm. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Nov 20, 2007 5:17 am 
By dimadick

"Quasar is in the costume he wore at the start of his series  with a shield-like emblem on his chest with two red lines running horizontally through it. " 

He had been wearing variations of shield-like emblems since his first appearance in "Captain America" vol. 1 #217 (January, 1978). For example check the flaming-shield image on the cover of said issue: http://www.comicvine.com/comic/captain- ... 8/&i=10214 

The two red lines were already within the image in "Quasar" #1 (October, 1989). See the cover: http://www.quantumzone.org/issues/quasar/quasar01.html 

That costume was retconned out of existence in "Quasar" #18 (January, 1991). He was caught in a battle between cosmic beings Origin and Un-being. Origin creates super-beings by manipulating the events granting their powers, implanting ideas for suitable codenames and costumes. Un-being retroactively changes reality and erases events and the super-beings created by them. 

Un-being erased the events giving Wendell Vaughn superpowers but Origin managed to restore them. She decided to change his costume in the process and gave him a new one, replacing the shield with an image resembling an actual quasar. Due to the effects of her powers the new costume supposedly replaced the oprevious one in all previous appearances and turned Quasar into a living time-paradox , something next used in battle with fellow living paradox Maelstrom. 

For the new Quasar costume see the image on Quasar #19 (February, 1991):http://www.quantumzone.org/issues/quasar/quasar19.html 

Assuming this fits into continiuty after the long absence of Quasar following "Incredible Hulk" vol. 1 #279 (January, 1983), this leaves the little Christmas tale taking place within the first 18 issues of Quasar. October, 1989 to January, 1991.

			*	*	*

Nov 20, 2007 5:30 am 
By Somebody
Director

dimadick wrote:
>>>
"Quasar is in the costume he wore at the start of his series  with a shield-like emblem on his chest with two red lines running horizontally through it. "

He had been wearing variations of shield-like emblems since his first appearance in "Captain America" vol. 1 #217 (January, 1978). For example check the flaming-shield image on the cover of said issue: http://www.comicvine.com/comic/captain- ... 8/&i=10214

The two red lines were already within the image in "Quasar" #1 (October, 1989). See the cover: http://www.quantumzone.org/issues/quasar/quasar01.html
<<<

Covers can be misleading - Q1's a flashback to how WV got the q-bands, and he gets that costume near the end of Q2, after he nearly loses to Deathurge and Eon gives him a job, which comes with the costume variant (until then, he was wearing the "Marvel Boy"/Crusader costume), and, now he's got a purpose, Deathurge can't hurt him any more.


dimadick wrote:
>>>
Un-being erased the events giving Wendell Vaughn superpowers but Origin managed to restore them. She decided to change his costume in the process and gave him a new one, replacing the shield with an image resembling an actual quasar.
<<<

Technically, Unbeing actually restored Quasar while posing as Origin, trying to talk him into killing the real Origin. Once restored, he zapped Unbeing instead [Origin did the costume-switch shortly afterward] 

[I read these issues recently ]

			*	*	*

Nov 20, 2007 7:03 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

If this story is canonical (which I doubt) and occurs during the first 18 issues of QUASAR, I'd posit that it's the same Christmas eve as the stories in MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL #1.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 20, 2007 7:30 am 
By dimadick

"The FF wear dark blue costumes with white collars and belts." 

They used those dark blue costumes from "Fantastic Four" vol. 1 #256 (July, 1983) with little variations to #416 (September, 1996). Placing the Christmas tale in the period between their revamp by John Byrne to the Onslaught crossover. Quite a wide window. 

"Sue Richards has extremely short hair with a puffy front. And Santa is Santa." 

Something like the following image?:http://photos1.blogger.com/hello/60/9459/1024/ff2.jpg 

a) While her hairstyle has never been particularly stable, by the early 1980s the image of her head on the cover of the "Fantastic Four" depicted her with Thor-like long hair. 

The image changed to one with much shorter hair in #235 ( October, 1981) to match her current depiction by John Byrne. The new style had her hair not reaching her shoulders or even her nose. 

b) Byrne himself gave her shoulder-length hair in #259 (October, 1983). He kept using that appearance until restoring the short hair at about the time of #289 (April, 1986). 

c) Byrne stops being the regular artist in #293 (August, 1986). Replacement John Buscema uses long hair until the Invisible Woman is written out of the team with #307 (October, 1987). 

d) Invisible Woman rejoins the Fantastic Four with issue #326 (May, 1989), following two years of guest appearances with Power Pack, Silver Surfer, Thor and featured player status in the Avengers. 

Artist Keith Pollard again has with long hair. So do his replacements Rich Buckler and Ron Lim. 

e) Walter Simonson who was the main writer for some time took over the art work as well with #337 (February, 1990). The Byrne-style short hair returns. 

Art Adams takes over the art in #347 (December, 1990) but the hairstyle remainst the same until Walter Simonson leaves the title with #354 (July, 1991). 

Assuming that those are not the Byrne-version of the Four, the visual depiction would point to the Walter Simonson run. Which , hair-not-withstanding, lasted from #334 to #354 (December, 1989 - July, 1991). 

The current MCP listings have FF guest appearances in "Quasar" #20 following "Fantastic Four" #349. Given the Quasar depiction in the Christmas tale, the tale has to occure before Quasar #20 and before "Fantastic Four" #350 (March, 1991). And for that matter before #351 which followed the previous one one in publication but precedes it in chronology.

			*	*	*

Nov 20, 2007 6:51 pm 
By SeanCurtin

dimadick wrote:
>>>
That costume was retconned out of existence in "Quasar" #18 (January, 1991).
<<<

...Although the shield-emblem costume reappeared in the Infinity Gauntlet miniseries. I'm not sure if that was ever explained as anything other than an artistic error on Perez's part.

			*	*	*

Nov 20, 2007 11:21 pm 
By Peter Fabricius

I seem to remember Quasar noting that for a time he by mistake used the wrong costume stored in the bands

Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Nov 21, 2007 2:25 am 
By Somebody
Director

That was the masked, Origin-given, costume, which wasn't retconned, simply replaced. He didn't even have the ability to store his costume in the bands until after the headband-costumes were Gone.

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Subject: Chronology Review for Hulk Vol. 3 #104-105

Apr 20, 2007 10:44 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Hulk #104-105 
Written by Greg Pak 
Pencils by Carlo Pagulayan 
Inks by Jeffrey Huet 

This is a pretty simple review, with no major chronology problems. I still wonder at how much time truly passed during the course of Planet Hulk, but Ill leave that to you to figure out, Paul. 

Hulk #104 
Planet Hulk: Armageddon Pt. 1 
Written by Greg Pak 
Pencils by Carlo Pagulayan 
Inks by Jeffrey Huet 

Appearances: 
Hulk, (Bruce Banner) 
Miek 
Caiera the Oldstrong 
Korg 
Elloe Kaifi 
Hiroim the Shamed 
Arch-E-5912 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-17: Its the middle of the night after the end of the last issue, (after Hulk and Caiera have consummated their marriage). Hulk wakes up in bed receiving a message from Miek. He soon meets Miek in the laboratory, to find Miek and some Imperial scientists examining the space shuttle that brought the Hulk to this world. A monitor is re-playing the message from the Illuminati to the Hulk, (the message which we saw back in H3 #92, with Mr. Fantastic saying its for the best that the Hulk was exiled). Hulk smashes the monitor in a fit of rage. 

A short time later, as dawn emerges, Caiera announces to Hulk that shes carrying his child, (thats an awful quick pregnancy test, considering the honeymoon was just last night)! Happy at last, Hulk and Caiera and the rest of the Warbound set to work rebuilding the city. Hulk then announces that hes sending Korg and Hiroim to negotiate peace with the Fillians, (a rebel branch of Imperials), and hes sending Arch-E-5912 to negotiate with the Wildebots, and hes sending Miek and Elloe to help him round up the Spikes. 

Later that day, Hulk, Elloe, and Miek hop onto their spaceship and launch the Spikes into outer space, and they succeed in sending them back where they belong among the stars. The souls of everyone who the Spikes consumed while on this world are released, and everyone who suffered loss at the hands of the Spikes feels their loved ones saying goodbye to them. Happiness engulfs the land. 

Hulk returns to the planet and meets up with Caiera. 

Pgs. 18-22: This is the same day, but theres a brief bit of the next issue that occurs at the same time as this is occurringlet me explain next issue. Hulk and Caiera march hand in hand back into the Crown City together, with everyone holding a celebration in their honor, and theyre all about to live happily ever after when all of a sudden, the spaceship which brought the Hulk to this world, (which is on display in the middle of the city) starts to beep, and a computer voice from the shuttle says, Warning: Warp Core Compromised. Hulk tosses the ship into the air, but its too late. The Illuminatis spaceship explodes, leveling Crown City... 

References: No-Name (aka Brood Creature #2 of 6) doesnt actually appear in this issue! Its strange that the writer and artist forget members of their own cast, (like Arch-E-5912, who comes and goes each issue it seems like). Though No-Name is probably not far away, since she doesnt appear, I suppose she doesnt get an MCP listing for this issue. 

Hulk #105 
Planet Hulk: Armageddon Pt. 2 
Written by Greg Pak 
Pencils by Carlo Pagulayan 
Inks by Jeffrey Huet 

Appearances: 
Hulk, (Bruce Banner) 
Miek 
Caiera the Oldstrong 
Korg 
Elloe Kaifi 
Hiroim the Shamed 
No-Name, (Brood Creature #2 of 6) 
Arch-E-5912 

Synopsis: Pgs. 1-3: This scene occurs at the same time as Hulk and Caiera are entering Crown City. Arch-E-5912 meets up with a pack of Wildebots outside of Crown City, and reports to them that the Green King wants peace with them. He patches into the video feed for the news back in Crown City, to show the Wildebots that everyone loves the Green King, and theyre celebrating his rule. Just then, the warp core starts to detonate, and the Hulk tosses it into the air, and Arch-E-5912 turns and runs back towards the city... 

Pg. 4: Narrative Caption reads, Crown City. Day 3 of the Reign of the Green King. And now were caught back up with the end of last issue. 

The space shuttle explodes, killing everyone inside the city, except for the Hulk. Caiera crumbles to dust inside his arms. The tectonic plates of the continent are cracked by the explosion, reducing much of the countryside to rubble. Hiroim states that the planet is doomed. Miek and Elloe, inside the Shadow Elders spaceship, race across the countryside rounding up as many people as they can, (including Arch-E-5912, Korg, and Hiroim, and No-Name). They pick up the Hulk last. The Hulk sees no point in going on, but his Warbound companions point out that in their spaceship, they can go anywhere...and that gives Hulk the idea of heading back to Earth, to pay a little visit to those idiot Earthlings who created that space shuttle which exploded... 

Pg. 19-21: Cut to what may be days later. As Hulks space ship continues its journey towards Earth, the Hulk and his companions prepare for war, forging a series of weapons and preparing to strike out at the "puny humans"... 

References: Am I correct that pages 1-3 wouldnt really be considered a flashback, so much as a scene thats occurring at the same time as another scene? 

Pg. 4: As noted above, the narrative caption says that this is Day 3 of the Green Kings reign. Thats a rather short rule, (Issue #103 was Day #1 and 2, thus making Issues #104 and the first half of #105 occur all on the same day). 

And heres the MCP listings: 

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
H3 103 
*H3 104 
*H3 105 

MIEK 
H3 103 
*H3 104 
*H3 105 

CAIERA THE OLDSTRONG 
H3 103 
*H3 104 
*H3 105 

KORG 
H3 103 
*H3 104 
*H3 105 

ELLOE KAIFI 
H3 103 
*H3 104 
*H3 105 

HIROIM THE SHAMED 
H3 103 
*H3 104 
*H3 105 

NO-NAME/BROOD #2 OF 6 
H3 103 
*H3 105 

ARCH-E-5912 
H3 101 
*H3 104 
*H3 105 

And that brings us to the end of Planet Hulk and paves the way for World War Hulk. Its going to be a fun summer!

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Apr 21, 2007 7:21 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hey, Kevin. Thanks for this analysis. I'm working it into the revised calendar now. I wonder, though, if you might supply a chronological breakdown of panels in H3 104 (18-22) and H3 105 (1-3), if it's not too much trouble.

Paul B.

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Apr 21, 2007 10:41 am 
By jephyork
Director

Wait, that's how Planet Hulk ends? A great sweeping gladiator epic that comes to a happy ending, then suddenly something unrelated blows up and destroys the planet? That seems kind of weak... 

-Jeph!

Last edited by jephyork on Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

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Apr 21, 2007 11:07 am 
By JD

Yeah, that was a bit contrived.

			*	*	*

Apr 21, 2007 11:11 am 
By Somebody
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Wait, that's how Planet Hulk ends? A great sweeping gladiator epic that comes to a happy ending, then suddenly something unrelated blows up and destroys the planet? That seems kind of weak...
<<<

Frankly, yes. It was FAR too sudden and (as JD says) contrived.

			*	*	*

Apr 21, 2007 11:33 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

>>>
Hey, Kevin. Thanks for this analysis. I'm working it into the revised calendar now. I wonder, though, if you might supply a chronological breakdown of panels in H3 104 (18-22) and H3 105 (1-3), if it's not too much trouble.
<<<

Um, okay. How's this?

H3 104:

Pg. 18: On the outskirts of Crown City, people are crying in happiness as they feel their deceased loved ones saying goodbye to them. Hulk and Ciaera walk up and the people give thanks to Hulk.

19p1: Hulk and Caiera march into the city, the crowd cheering the Hulk's name.

19p2: The people unveal a statue they've created of the Hulk, which rests atop the damaged space shuttle that brought the Hulk to this world. 

19p3: Hulk's not sure if he likes it, but Caiera tells him to just smile in acceptance.

19p4: Hulk puts his arm and Caiera, and the people cheer, and this would've been the perfect place for "The End", but...

19p5: Hulk leans forward to kiss Caiera, but a beeping noise can be heard coming from the spaceship...

20p1: Hulk turns his attention to the beeping noise.

20p2: He sees it's coming from the shuttle.

20p3: He races towards the shuttle. A computer voice from the shuttle says, "Warning: Warp Core compromised". 

20p4: Hulk picks up the shuttle, preparing to toss it far away. As he does, the Illuminati's message starts broadcasting from the shuttle again. 

20p5: Hulk's about to toss, but he pauses to glance at Mr. Fantastic's face on a monitor screen inside the damaged shuttle. It's the part of the message where Mr. Fantastic says, "I'm truly, genuinely sorry." (oh, the irony)...

21p1: Hulk tosses the shuttle way up...

21p2: He turns and shouts out, "Everybody get down!"

21p3: He grabs Caiera and tries to shield her from the pending explosion.

21p4: The shuttle explodes overhead.

Pg. 22: A splash page showing the heat and shockwave of the blast starting to engulf the city. Apparently Hulk didn't toss it far enough.

H3 105

1p1: Arch-E-5912 walks up to the pack of Wildebots, offering them a peace treaty.

1p2: The Wildebots scoff at first, but Arch-E starts to broadcast images of recent events to show the Hulk does want peace.

1p3: Close up on Arch-E's face as he explains the Hulk wants peace.

2p1: Arch-E's broadcast switches to a live feed, showing the Hulk with his arm around Caiera. It closely matches H3 104 pg. 19p4.

2p2: The Wildebot leader points out to Arch-E that something is wrong with the space shuttle in the background behind the Hulk and Caiera.

3p1: As the Wildebot leader and Arch-E watch the live feed, we see the Hulk turning towards the beeping noise coming from the shuttle.

3p2: Hulk races towards the shuttle to pick it up.

3p3: Arch-E disconnects from the live feed and turns to race back towards Crown City.

3p4: As Arch-E is running towards Crown City, the sky lights up, as the explosion begins...


>>>
Wait, that's how Planet Hulk ends? A great sweeping gladiator epic that comes to a happy ending, then suddenly something unrelated blows up and destroys the planet? That seems kind of weak... 
<<<

Yeah, you're telling me...well, I don't know if it's so much that it's weak storytelling, (the grief displayed by the Hulk is classic). Throughout all of the "Planet Hulk" storyline, there was this prophecy that said the Hulk was either going to be the Sakaarson, (the saviour of the planet) or the World Breaker. The irony we're supposed to get from this is that he's both: He saved the world, only to kill it, (well, the shuttle he arrived in killed it technically, but still...in a way, the Hulk's fears that his rage would destroy this world did indeed come to pass). 

On the other hand, it's a cheap ending, in that it's merely a set up for the "Next Big Event"...(it's a way to get Hulk focused on getting revenge against the Illuminati). So yeah, I've got mixed feelings about the ending...Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Apr 21, 2007 6:43 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the breakdown, Kevin. That helps tremendously. 

I have placed the entirety of Hulk's adventures on Sakaar during a span of a few weeks and chronologically before the start of the Civil War. By the time CW starts, Hulk is already in the spaceship heading back toward earth. Without benefit of a wormhole, the journey is taking months. As the Hulk journeys, H3 100/2 takes place during Civil War. I put the last page of H3 105 after CW. Now we brace for World War Hulk. This should be good...

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Apr 21, 2007 6:49 pm 
By Somebody
Director

That's a BIG assumption - especially when they're on the ship that was generating the Great Portal. Exactly how long they spend travelling will presumably be made clear in WWH: World Breaker.

			*	*	*

Apr 21, 2007 7:13 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
That's a BIG assumption - especially when they're on the ship that was generating the Great Portal. 
<<<

True, but it does appear they spent some time on board the spaceship. Planet Hulk suffers from it seemingly occur over a very short period, (mere weeks, it would appear). You've got to come up with some reason why it takes Hulk so long to get back to Earth... 

Paul B.'s explaination works for now, (for me, anyway), but we'll see how the "World Breaker" one-shot rationalizes it...Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Apr 21, 2007 7:30 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
Paul B.'s explaination works for now, (for me, anyway), but we'll see how the "World Breaker" one-shot rationalizes it...
<<<

The revised calendar will reflect my current theory. And I'll gladly readjust things if World Breaker runs counter to it. Of course, we could always fall back on the references to the passage of time in Planet Hulk being measured in Sakaar days, which are much longer than terran days, the opposite of what I had to do with Annihilation.

Paul B.

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Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:35 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Can someone tell us where WWH 5-FB (32p3) fits into H3 104? This flashback shows Miek watching the Red King's people loading an old warp core onto the shuttle that brought Hulk to Sakaar. I suspect it's between two panels on page 17.

Paul B.

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Nov 17, 2007 3:54 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

No, pg. 17, (and the few pages before it) deal with Hulk meeting back up with Caiera, and with the Spikes being returned to space, and with happy feelings spreading across the land. 

The most likely place for the flashback is between pgs. 3 and 4 of H3 104. Pgs. 1-3 show Miek calling Hulk to the science lab where scientists are examining the space shuttle that brought Hulk to this world. Hulk shatters a monitor screen playing the message from the Illuminati, and leaves. 

Pg. 4 cuts to a short time later, as Hulk wakes up Caiera, and she announces she's pregnant. 

We now know that Miek was trying to get Hulk to recapture his anger, but that apparently wasn't enough, so we now know that some loyal "Red King" followers loaded the warp core bomb onto the shuttle, and Miek watched them do it, and said nothing. 

So yeah, the flashback probably needs to occur between pgs. 3 and 4...

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Nov 19, 2007 6:53 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Kevin. Here's the sequence of events, as I understand them from your various posts: 

INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #104 (1-3) 
The day after H3 103. Hulk wakes up in bed as he receives a message from Miek. He soon meets Miek in the laboratory and 
sees some Imperial scientists examining the space shuttle that brought the Hulk to this world. A monitor replays the message 
from the Illuminati and Hulk smashes the monitor in a fit of rage. 
WORLD WAR HULK #5  FB (32p3) 
The same day as H3 104 (1-3). Hoping to kill Hulk, the Red Kings people load an old warp core onto the shuttle. Miek watches and does nothing, figuring that the explosion will not kill Hulk but return him to being the World Breaker. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #104 (4-19p4) 
The same day as WWH 5-FB (32p3). As dawn emerges, Caiera announces to Hulk that she's carrying his child. Happy at last, Hulk and Caiera and the rest of the Warbound set to work rebuilding the city. Hulk then announces that he's sending Korg and Hiroim to negotiate peace with the Fillians, Arch-E-5912 to negotiate with the Wildebots, and Miek and Elloe to help him round up the Spikes. Later that day, Hulk, Elloe, and Miek hop onto their spaceship and launch the Spikes into outer space, and they succeed in sending them back where they belong among the stars. The souls of everyone who the Spikes consumed while on this world are released, and everyone who suffered loss at the hands of the Spikes feels their loved ones saying goodbye to them. Happiness engulfs the land. Hulk returns to Sakaar and meets up with Caiera. Hulk and Caiera march hand in hand back into the Crown City together, with everyone holding a celebration in their honor. A statue of the Hulk is unveiled atop the damaged space shuttle that brought Hulk to this world. The people cheer. 
WORLD WAR HULK #5  FB (2p2) ~ WORLD WAR HULK #5  FB (32p4) 
The same day as H3 104 (4-19). Hulk and Hiroim watch as children play near the Hulk statue atop the shuttle. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #105 (1-2p1) 
The same day as WWH 5-FB (2p2) Arch-E-5912 meets up with a pack of Wildebots outside of Crown City and reports to them that the Green King wants peace with them. He patches into the video feed for the news back in Crown City to show the Wildebots that everyone loves the Green King, and they're celebrating his rule. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #104 (19p5) 
The same day as H3 105 (1-2). Hulk goes to kiss Caiera but hears a beeping sound coming from the shuttle. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #105 (2p2) 
The same day as H3 104 (19p5). The Wildebot leader points out to Arch-E-5912 that something is wrong with the shuttle. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #104 (20p1) ~ INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #105 (3p1) 
The same day as H3 105 (2p2). Hulk turns his attention to the beeping noise, as the Wildebot leader and Arch-E-5912 see it 
televised. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #104 (20p2-20p3) 
The same day as H3 104 (20p1). Hulk sees that the source of the noise is the shuttle and he races toward it as a computer voice 
from the shuttle says, "Warning: Warp Core Compromised." 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #105 (3p2-3p3) 
The same day as H3 104 (20p2-20p3). As Hulk races to the shuttle, Arch-E-5912 disconnects the feed and turns to race back to 
Crown City. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #104 (20p4-21p4) 
The same day as H3 105 (3p2-3p3). Hulk picks up the shuttle and as he prepares to toss it away, the recorded message from the 
Illuminati comes on. Hulk tosses the shuttle high and tells everyone to get down. He grabs Caiera and shields her. The shuttle 
explodes overhead. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #105 (3p4) 
The same day as H3 104 (20-21). As Arch-E-5912 races toward Crown City, he sees the explosion. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #104 (22) 
The same day as H3 105 (3p4). The shockwave and heat from the blast starts to engulf Crown City. 
WORLD WAR HULK #5  FB (32p5) 
The same day as H3 104 (22). The blast grows. 
WORLD WAR HULK v5  FB (2p3) 
The same day as WWH 5-FB (32p5). Hulk grabs Caiera as the blast hits them. 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #105 (4-18) 
The same day as WWH 5-FB (2p3). On "Day 3 of the reign of the Green King," everyone inside Crown City is killed except for the Hulk. Caiera crumbles to dust inside his arms. The tectonic plates of the continent are cracked by the explosion, reducing much of the countryside to rubble. Hiroim states that the planet is doomed. Miek and Elloe, inside the Shadow Elder's spaceship, race across the countryside rounding up as many people as they can, including Arch-E-5912, Korg, and Hiroim, and No-Name. They pick up the Hulk last. The Hulk sees no point in going on, but his Warbound companions point out that in their spaceship, they can go anywhere, and that gives Hulk the idea of heading back to Earth to pay a little visit to the idiot Earthlings who created the space shuttle.

Paul B.

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Nov 20, 2007 12:34 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

Looks good overall, but let me double check my issues tomorrow, (don't have them on hand this second)...Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Nov 21, 2007 12:08 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

>>>
WORLD WAR HULK #5  FB (2p2) ~ WORLD WAR HULK #5  FB (32p4)
The same day as H3 104 (4-19). Hulk and Hiroim watch as children play near the Hulk statue atop the shuttle. 
<<<

These are duplicate images of H3 104 (19p4).


>>>
WORLD WAR HULK #5  FB (32p5)
The same day as H3 104 (22). The blast grows. 

WORLD WAR HULK v5  FB (2p3)
The same day as WWH 5-FB (32p5). Hulk grabs Caiera as the blast hits them. 
<<<

While not an exact duplicate, I really don't see anything new added in these two panels that we don't see in H3 104, pg. 22, (in which we see the explosion growing, while Hulk is grabbing Caiera....) 

By the way, in case you were wondering, WWH 5-FB (32p2) is a duplicate of H3 104 (20p3), (showing Hulk and Caiera on a ledge looking down at their city). 

Other than that, it looks fine. I think the only "new material" flashback in World War Hulk #5 is the Miek flashback, (WWH 5-FB 32p3).

Last edited by Kevin W. on Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Nov 21, 2007 10:33 am 
By PaUL Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Kevin.

Paul B.

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Thread 29

Subject: Underworld 1-5

Nov 17, 2007 3:27 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Underworld #1 
Published: April, 2006 

Appearances: 
Underworld(Jackie Dio), Mr. Pain(Vince Dio), Consultant(Hippo), Silvermane(Silvio Manfredi), Owl(Leland Owlsley) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg11 
With three days left before hes let out of prison, Jackie Dio gets in a fight and is thrown into solitary. There he talks with the Hippo, who tells him about the Consultant, a guy who revamps super-villains. 
Pg12-pg18pn3: 3 days later 
Jackie is set free, so he visits his old boss Silvermane. 
Pg18pn4(of 4)-pg19-FB: about 'ten years' ago 
Jackie beats the crap out of Vince and tells him to get out of town. 
Pg20-pg22: same day as pg18pn3 
Silvermane cant give Jackie any work, so he sends him to the new Kingpin, the Owl. He talks to the owl, who wants to give him work. He sends for Mr. pain, his right hand man, who turns out to be Vince, but super-powered. 

References: 
Jackie has been in the Cage for almost ten years. Apparently, the Cage is supposed to be an even rougher prison than the Vault, for even tougher villains. 

The Owl is the new Kingpin of Crime in New York, which was slightly outdated when this was published. 

Underworld #2 
Published: May, 2006 

Appearances: 
Underworld(Jackie Dio), Mr. Pain(Vince Dio), Consultant, Silvermane-FB-BTS, Spider-Man-FB 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7-FB: following issue 1-FB 
On the phone with Silvermane, Jackie is surrounded by the police. Hes been ratted out by Vince, so he kills the cops and approaches Vince. Spider-Man stops by and webs him up before he can kill Vince. 
Pg8-pg13: same night as end of last issue 
Vince beats the crap out of Jackie and tells him to get out of town. 
Pg14-pg18: next day 
Jackie wakes up in the hospital. 
Pg19-pg22: two days later 
Jackie shoots and kills some guys at the docks to steal their stuff. Hes confused to find theyre hauling around canisters. One of them has been punctured by his bullets and he passes out from the escaping gas. 

References: 
Ten years may just mean a long time. The Flashbacks are supposed to occur before Silvermane gets robot parts. Also, Spider-Man is in his regular red & blues. 

Silvermane isnt seen or heard on the other end of the phone in the FB, giving him a BTS. 

Oh. So Jackie kills six cops and only gets ten years? WTF? 

Underworld #3 
Published: June, 2006 

Appearances: 
Underworld(Jackie Dio), Silvermane-FB, Punisher-FB-BTS(& now), Mr. Pain(FB & BTS now), Rhino, Boomerang, Grizzly, Consultant, and CHECK THIS OUT! for all of the random villains that appear, but make no difference to the plot.(Splice, Chameleon, Whirlwind, Man-Bull, Doctor Octopus, Shocker, Kangaroo, Tombstone, Electro, Hydro-Man , Man-Bull) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3-FB: before issue 1-FB 
The Punisher has just attacked Silvermanes place, killing about half his guys. Vince suggests they get their own super-powered muscle, Jackie tells him to shut up. Silvermane mentions that even the Kingpin has a guy who kills people with cards now, and maybe they should get a super-guy. 
Pg4-pg14: same night as end of last issue 
Jackie goes to Satans Circus, a bar for super-villains, to get a doctor. Hes sent to one, who tells him that the gas gave him super powers. 
Pg15-pg22: less than a week later 
Jackie shoots up a strip club owned by the Owl, and fights a revamped Grizzly and Boomerang. Jackie runs off, but not before hes spotted by the Punisher. Jackie makes his way to the Consultants place to get some new guns. 

References: 
In the FlashBack, its mentioned that the Kingpin has recently hired Bullseye, roughly placing the FlashBacks around DD 172. 

Underworld #4 
Published: July, 2006 

Appearances: 
Underworld(Jackie Dio), Mr. Pain(Vince Dio), Consultant, Punisher, Grizzly, Boomerang, Owl, and CHECK THIS OUT! for all of the random villains that appear.(Trapster, Judge, Gibbon, Slyde, Shocker, Dragonfly(Veronica Dultry), Nekra, Roughouse, Plantman, Titania, White Rabbit, Black Talon) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: day after last issue 
Jackie fights the Punisher. 
Pg4-pg9-FB: same night as end of last issue 
Jackie gets some fancy new guns from the Consultant. 
Pg10-pg16pn5-FB: next day, same day as pg1, before pg1 
Jackie attacks the Grizzly and Boomerang. As hes about to kill them, hes attacked by the Punisher. Meanwhile, the Owl calls Mr. Pain to take care of Jackie. 
Pg16pn6(of 6)-pg17-FB-FB: after issue 3-FB, before issue 1-FB 
Vince has hired Hydra to kill Jackie, but hes defeated them and finds out it was Vince who hired them. 
Pg18-pg19: following pg3 
Jackie fights the Punisher, but theyre interrupted by the police. Jackie is captured and the Punisher gets away. 
Pg20-pg22: the next day 
Jackie wakes up in a prison hospital, and is greeted by the doctor who told him he had powers. He injects Jackie with a healing factor as some villains prepare to attack the prison. 

Underworld #5 
Published: August, 2006 

Appearances: 
Underworld(Jackie Dio), Mr. Pain(Vince Dio), Consultant, Owl, Grizzly, Boomerang, Armadillo, and CHECK THIS OUT! for all of the random villains that appear.(Trapster, Judge, Gibbon, Slyde, Shocker, Dragonfly(Veronica Dultry), Nekra, Roughouse, Plantman, Titania, White Rabbit, Black Talon) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg13: same day as end of last issue 
Jackie gets dressed, fights and defeats the attacking villains. Meanwhile, Mr. Pain attacks Grizzly and Boomerang in the hospital. Later, Jackie meets with the Owl and is attacked by Mr. Pain. After a fight, Jackie gains the upper hand. 
Pg14-FB: earliest FlashBack 
Jackies dad has been beaten up by super-villains. He makes Jackie promise to look after his brother Vince. 
Pg15-pg22: same day as pg13 
Jackie kills Vince, and goes to meet the Consultant. Its revealed that the Consultant was actually the Hippo, and hes been keeping tabs on him the whole time. He offers to have Jackie work for him, but he refuses, and leaves as the Armadillo enters. Later, Jackie commits a robbery under his new name: Underworld. 

Quick breakdown: 

UW 5-FB: maybe 6 or 8 years before UW 3-FB 
UW 3-FB: around the time of DD 172 
UW 4-FB-FB: shortly afterwards 
UW 1-FB: shortly afterwards 
UW 2-FB: shortly afterwards 
 
UW 1 (1-11) Day 1: present day, Owl is Kingpin of Crime 
UW 1 (12-18:3) Day 4 
UW 1 (20-22) Day 4 
UW 2 (8-13) Day 4 
UW 2 (14-18) Day 5 
UW 2 (19-22) Day 7 
UW 3 (4-14) Day 7 
UW 3 (15-22) Day 11 
UW 4 (4-9)-FB Day 11 
UW 4 (10-16:5)-FB Day 12 
UW 4 (1-3) Day 12 
UW 4 (18-19) Day 12 
UW 4 (20-22) Day 13 
UW 5 (1-13) Day 13 
UW 5 (15-22) Day 13 

Some placement suggestions for the FlashBacks: 

SILVERMANE/SILVIO MANFREDI 
 
ASM 180 
ASM 197-FB-BTS 
PPTSS@ 2 
*UW 3-FB
*UW 2-FB-BTS 
PPTSS 69 
 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
 
ASM 218 
*UW 2-FB 
M/TU 103 
PPTSS 54 
 

PUNISHER/FRANK CASTLE 
 
ASM 202 
*UW 3-FB-BTS 
ASM@ 15 
PUN2 80-FB 
DD 181 
 

And the books cast: 

UNDERWORLD/JACKIE DIO 
UW 5-FB 
UW 3-FB 
UW 4-FB-FB 
UW 1-FB 
UW 2-FB 
{UW 1} 
UW 2 
UW 3-BTS 
UW 4-FB 
UW 4 
UW 5 
CW: WC 1 

MR. PAIN/VINCE DIO 
UW 5-FB 
UW 3-FB 
UW 4-FB-FB 
UW 1-FB 
UW 2-FB 
{UW 1} 
UW 2 
UW 3-BTS 
UW 4-FB 
UW 5 

CONSULTANT 
UW 1 
UW 2 
UW 3 
UW 4-FB 
UW 4 
UW 5 

As for the random villains, the Owl, Silvermane, and the Punisher however it falls with the current day stuff.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 21, 2007 10:28 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
PPTSS@ 2 
*UW 3-FB 
*UW 2-FB-BTS 
PPTSS 69 


Silvermane was badly injured in PPTSS@ 2 and was bedridden from then until PPTSS 69, so unless he was in bed during those UW flashbacks, the flashbacks will need to go before PPTSS@ 2. 

You note that these flashbacks occur after Kingpin hired Bullseye. Does anyone know exactly when that happens in the DD 169-172 arc? And are 
there gaps in this arc? The reason I ask is that we have this sequence... 

[Kingpin hires Bullseye in DD 1xx] 
UW 3-FB 
UW 2-FB 
PPTSS@ 2 
...then (according to Spidey's MCP listing...) 
PPTSS 52 
M/TU 102 
PPTSS 53 
M/SPT2 11-VO 
ASM 213 
ASM 214 
ASM 215 
ASM 216 
ASM 217 
ASM 218 
M/TU 103 
PPTSS 54 
PPTSS 52 
PPTSS 54 
PPTSS 55 
M/TU 106 
ASM 218* 
PPTSS 56 
M/TU 107 
SMS&PM 
ASM 218 
PPTSS 57 

*I believe the MCP lists this as Matt Murdock's last appearance before DD 169. However, if Bullseye is hired by Kingpin in DD 169 or later, this placement doesn't hold. 

The Official Marvel Index to Marvel Team-Up lists Daredevil's appearance in M/TU 107 (above) between pages 4 and 8 of DD 172. This won't stand if Bullseye is hired after page 8 of DD 172. It could stand if Bullseye is hired before then and there is a gap or gaps in the DD 169-172 story arc that allow enough time for all the comics listed above, from UW 2-FB through M/TU 107.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 22, 2007 2:41 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

DD 172 (1-4) is continued dierctly from the end of DD 171. Daredevil frees himself, then goes after Turk. 

DD 172 (5) The Kingpin regroups. 

DD 172 (6) Bullseye ups his fee to kill the Kingpin.(he was hired to kill him earlier in the arc) 

DD 172 (7-8) Daredevil attempts to get some files, but they turn out to be newspapers. 

DD 172 (9-13) Bullseye confronts Kingpin, but he offers more money. Now, Bullseye works for the Kingpin. 

DD 172 (14-21) Daredevil and Bullseye fight, Daredevil wins. 

DD 172 (22) Vanessa Fisk wanders around in the sewers. 

Specifically, Kingpin hires Bullseye on page 11, in the middle of the (9-13) scene. By page 13, Bullseye is calling Kingpin 'Boss'. Also, the point of DD 169-172 is to put the Kingpin back into power. UW 3-FB doesn't really work if the Kingpin is retired, so it has to follow DD 172 entirely. I suppose a gap could be inserted between pg13 & pg14, but the Kingpin isn't really 'back' until the end of the issue. 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Silvermane was badly injured in PPTSS@ 2 and was bedridden from then until PPTSS 69, so unless he was in bed during those UW flashbacks, the flashbacks will need to go before PPTSS@ 2. 
<<<

We only see Silvermane in UW 3-FB, and he's not in bed. We only see him for a panel or two, checking on how many of his men were killed by the Punisher. In UW 2-FB, he's on the other end of the phone, so I guess he could be in bed for that. However, UW 3-FB still has to occur after DD 172. 

Is Peter Parker 69 where Silvermane gets robot parts? If not, this could go after that. If not, well. Yeah. Also, does Peter Parker Annual 2 end with Silvermane in bed, and it's reinforced that he's been in bed since, in Peter Parker 69?(I own the books, and normally I could check for myself, but we're remodeling again! About 85% of my comics are blocked off for the time being, and that includes all of my Spider-Mans. Why, why do we do this during the busiest retail time of the year? I don't know, I really don't) 

Is it possible that Silvermane could have gotten out of bed to check on how many men were killed? In any case, my suggestion would have to be adjusted for Spider-Man to take into account Daredevil's appearance in M/TU 107: 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
... 
ASM 218 (1-x) 
M/TU 103 
PPTSS 54 
... 
ASM 218 (x-xx) 
PPTSS 56 
M/TU 107 
SMS&PM 
ASM 218 (xx-xxx) 
*UW 2-FB 
PPTSS 57 
ASM 219 
... 

Of course, that's assuming Silvermane could get out of bed for a few minutes. If he couldn't, and he gets robot parts in Peter Parker 69, we have a bigger mess on our hands. 

Also, does anyone know what the page/panel ranges are for ASM 218?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 23, 2007 11:43 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Is Peter Parker 69 where Silvermane gets robot parts? 
<<<

Yes, he gets them in the story PPTSS 69-70. Should've mentioned that before.


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Also, does Peter Parker Annual 2 end with Silvermane in bed, and it's reinforced that he's been in bed since, in Peter Parker 69?
<<<

PPTSS@ 1 ends with Silvermane in shock and being loaded onto an ambulance. The medic says "There's no broken bones and no evidence of spinal damage. He'll probably recover fully."

But, according to Silvermane's entry in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe Deluxe Edition, "his injuries [from PPTSS@ 2] resulted in undoing the effects of the rejuvenation serum; though bedridden, he continued to run his criminal empire until Dagger nearly killed him" in PPTSS 69.

PPTSS 69 indeed shows Silvermane bedridden, at home. Curiously, in that issue Jean DeWolff tells Spidey that "Silvermane broke almost every bone in his body during that free-for-all between you, him and the Green Goblin" in ASM 180. "We tried to take him into custody -- but he was rescued by his gang -- and all our efforts to find him have bottomed out." It seems that her info is a little outdated...Silvermane survived the fall, then attempted to assassinate Kingpin in ASM 197, then appeared in PPTSS@ 2 before PPTSS 69. Silvermane's goons must have recovered him from the hospital after PPTSS@ 2 and took him to his bed at home. Spidey doesn't bother to tell DeWolff that her info is outdated and that he last saw Silvermane being carted away by ambulance. Odd.


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Is it possible that Silvermane could have gotten out of bed to check on how many men were killed? 
<<<

Given that Fisk hires Bullseye in DD 172, I suppose it will have to be possible.


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Also, does anyone know what the page/panel ranges are for ASM 218?
<<<

ASM 218 (1-8:5) 
ASM 218 (8:6-9:5) -- "a week later" (Matt is here) 
ASM 218 (9:6-22:5) -- "a week" after that

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 25, 2007 1:10 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

I guess Silvermane had his good days and his bad days following Peter Parker Annual 2, and the Punisher's attack just before UW 3-FB was one of his good days. And thanks for the page/panel ranges!

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Thread 30

Subject: Golden Age Sub-Mariner Comics

Oct 13, 2007 2:12 am 
By Adamant

Sub-Mariner Comics #5, coverdate Spring 1942 

Sub-Mariner Comics 5/1 
Namor constructs a submarine he believes is far more advanced than the ones the Japanese navy uses, and brings along some of his men on a trip to Australia, which he believes the Japanese navy is planning on invading. He is correct, and a battle is already underway as he reaches the area, so he quickly takes up the battle. His sub is eventually destroyed, and his men are killed, but Subby continues fighting the Japanese with his bare fists, managing to hold the invaders back until US bombers arrive and put an end to the invasion. 
The story is very obviously set to take place prior to February's attack on Darwin. 
Character appearances: 
NAMOR THE SUB-MARINER 
FOLMA (Atlantean, Namor's "Chief lieutenant") 
HARLA (Atlantean engineer, killed) 
JADDA (Atlantean gunner, killed) 

Sub-Mariner Comics 5/2 
Said to take place right after Namor has been battling in the East Indies. Might refer to 5/1, but that wasn't really the East indies. Might be a story from Marvel Mystery, Human Torch, All-Winners or whatever other books Subby appeared in at the time. 
Namor is swimming around in the China Sea, when he stumbles upon an inflatable raft with a half-dead driftaway. He brings the man, Barney Stevens, to a US ship, where he is asked to rescue Barney's girlfriend Gi-Gi, an American spy, from Manila, where Barney's ship was sunk. 
Subby accepts the mission, goes to Manila, fights a ton of Japanese soldiers, and eventually ends up getting Gi-Gi off the island and safely to the general MacArthur's base, where Gi-Gi hands him a secret message she had manage to smuggle out. 
Character appearances: 
NAMOR THE SUB-MARINER 
STEVENS, BARNEY 
GI-GI 
GENERAL MACARTHUR, DOUGLAS 

Sub-Mariner Comics 5/3 
The Angel stumbles over a man committing suicide by jumping from a high ledge surrounding a building, and starts investigatig. Turns out the victim was the recently court-martialed captain Corbin, who was accused of selling defense secrets to "an enemy power". The Angel discovers the perfume he just smelled off a Japanese man exiting the building on a drugged cigarette in Corbin's room, and takes up the chase, but is eventually caught and hypnotized into killing a colonel Gardner by the Japanese (named Hutsu), which is obviously also how Corbin revealed his secrets and committed suicide. Garner manages to snap the Angel out of the hypnosis, and the two, together with Gardner's men, chase Hutsu, who was watching the scene to see if Garner would really die, but he loses them. Garner manages to get the Angel back into hypnosis, and he leads the group to Hutsu's hideout, which Hutsu had deleted the knowledge of from Angel's memory, and they finally catch the villain. 
Character appearances: 
THE ANGEL, THOMAS HALLOWAY 
CAPTAIN CORBIN 
HUTSU 
MRS. CORBIN 
RAY, DOROTHY (another US agent Hutsu tries to get secrets from) 
COLONEL GARDNER, Chief of military intelligence in New York (real person or fictive?) 

Sub-Mariner Comics 5/4 (do these count in the project?) 
"Pop" brags out catching a huge amount of crooks, and is ridiculed by his fellow cops for this. As he randomly stumbles upon a bunch of escaped convicts who knock themselves out, he finally gains some undeserved respect at the office after cooking up a story about stopping them with some fine marksmanship... until his son shows up and tells him he forgot his gun at home, that is. 
Character appearances: 
CASEY "POP" O'KEEFE 
POP'S SON (does he have a name?) 


Not being particularly familiar with the Invaders, I have no idea where these stories would fit relative to those. Anyone?

			*	*	*

Oct 13, 2007 3:45 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

I haven't gone through Namor's second Golden Age Masterworks in detail yet, but I have Namor's stories from issue 5 through 8 tentatively between CA: SL2 4 & CA5 5-FB in Namor's chronology, for the most part. As for the Angel, most likely after SUB-MARINER COMICS 4/3 and before CV 1-FB for all of his stories in issues 5 through 8.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Oct 13, 2007 11:56 pm 
By Adamant

Sub-Mariner Comics #6, coverdate Summer 1942 

Sub-Mariner Comics 6/1 
Subby is vacationing in a river in western Canada when he discovers a corpse hidden inside a tree. Assuming the only people who could hide a body like that would be a lumberjack with a boring machine, he sets course for the nearest lumber camp, where he discovers that the owner, Jim Blake, the "millionaire the Canadian government just put in charge of the timber industry for wartime productions", has just disappeared. Namor takes a job at the camp under the name Joe Pierre, and discovers that the foreman, Slug Gundy, and his partner Bulldog Schlump, are smuggling the dynamite that is to be divided among the lumber camps inside hollowed-out logs, before selling it to a German agent, and takes care of business. 
Character appearances: 
NAMOR THE SUB-MARINER 
JIM BLAKE (dead) 
MRS. BLAKE 
SLUG GUNDY (dies) 
BULLDOG SCHLUMP 
MAISIE (Slug's girlfriend) 

Sub-Mariner Comics 6/2 
The Japanese are tricking the American destroyers with self-propelled periscopes not attached to submarines, making the Americans waste ammunition. Subby reads about this in the paper (from a house certainly not in Atlantis... what's going on here?), and contacts the navy. Going along on an American destoryer, he eventually leaves ship and discovers a Japanese base, where he takes revenge with his own brand of trickery. 
Character appearances: 
NAMOR THE SUB-MARINER 
CAPTAIN NITSU (inventor of the fake periscopes) 
ADMIRAL NIPPO (commander of the Japanese Pacific fleet) 

Sub-Mariner Comics 6/3 
Flashback: Dr. Platt reports to Dr. Thomas and Dr. Bell that Dr. Foster is charging money for service done in the free clinics. Foster is called in on the carpet and fired, and respond by attempting suicide by jumping from the window. Later, a deformed, but living Foster swears revenge on the three doctors who ruined his life like this. 
Story: Foster begins an intensely overcomplicated scheme to kill the three men by using the corpses of his earlier victim to kill the next, eventually going so far as to making a self-operating robot out of Dr. Thomas' skeleton. The Angel is contacted in his home (does he not have a secret identity, or what?) by Dr. Thomas, who fears for his life. The Angel is too late to save him, but eventually manages to figure out what's going on and saves Dr. Platt, as Dr. Foster is accidentally killed by his own robot. Story as a whole makes tremendously little sense. 
Character appearances: 
Flashback: 
DR. PLATT 
DR. BELL 
DR. JAMES THOMAS 
DR. FOSTER 
Story: 
THE ANGEL/TOM HALLOWAY 
DR. BELL (dies) 
DR. FOSTER (dies) 
MRS. THOMAS 
DR. PLATT 
"STONE" (Foster's henchman) 

Sub-Mariner Comics 6/4 
Pop boasts about a trophy he supposedly won as a distance runner, and two friends of his callenge him to a race. Despite cheating with a car, they still can't beat Pop, though, but just as they are congratulating him, his son shows up and reveals that Pop cheated with a bike, and he is the one who won the trophy in a marble contest. 
Character appearances: 
CASEY "POP" O'KEEFE 
"MIKE" 
POP'S SON

			*	*	*

Oct 19, 2007 6:59 pm 
By Adamant

Sub-Mariner Comics #7, coverdate Fall 1942 

Sub-Mariner Comics 7/1: 
Namor is hanging out in a town "somewhere on the Atlantic Seaboard" when he reads about mysterious ship disappearances. FBI contacts him shortly after and asks him to check it up, handing him some coordinate, and Namor discovers the sunken ships on the sea bottom being raided by pirate zombies. After getting captured, he discovers that a mad doctor is behind these zombies, and he's set up a huge base of operations on the sea bottom to steal gold from passing ships. Namor is hypnotied into helping him, but eventually breaks free and defeats him by ripping a hole in his diving suit. 
Character appearances: 
NAMOR THE SUB-MARINER 

Sub-Mariner Comics 7/2: 
Story: The Angel finishes typing a case report, and tells us of his latest adventure. Entire story, apart from 4 panels of frame story, is told in a flashback 
Flashback within flashback: 
Corp. Danny Poll is sent to court martial for striking Lt. Callen with a rock. He is threatened with the firing squad, but ends up with 15 years in jail instead. 
Flashback: 
15 years later, Danny is released, and quickly takes control of a mob, giving the mobsters military training, using his experience in the army to run extremely efficient operations. The Angel gets involved as the mob, calling themselves the Firing Squad, robs a bank, but is defeated. Danny next plans revenge on Lt. Callen, who also married Poll's earlier girlfriend, but the Angel overhears him and tries to warn Callen. Poll attacks earlier than planned, but is defeated and sent to jail, but is rescued in court by his mob. They kidnap Callens son and demand Callen give his life for his son's, but Callen's wife throws herself in the line of fire, and with her dying breath tells Poll they had tried to get him out of jail. Struck with insanity, Poll runs into the shootout taking place between the mob and the police led by the Angel, and his shot to death. Without their leader, Angel defeats the rest of the mob easily. 
Character appearances: 
Story: 
THE ANGEL/TOM HALLOWAY 
Flashback-flashback: 
CORP. POLL, DANIEL 
LT. CALLEN, JOHN (last name also given as "Cullen") 
MARIE (last name not given) 
Flashback: 
POLL, DANIEL (dies) 
THE ANGEL/TOM HALLOWAY 
MAJOR CALLEN, JOHN 
CALLEN, MARIE (dies) 

Sub-Mariner Comics 7/3: 
Flashback: During the civil war, a chest of gold was sent down the Missisippi on the steamboat Water Witch to help the south state army buy supplies. The courier, Mr. Allardice, is betrayed by the captain of the book, who sells the info about the chest to gambler Rindigo Jones, who shoots and kills Allardice and steals the chest, then escapes by rowboat. Shortly after, the ship is sunk by a passing storm. 
Story: Subby is hanging out in the Mississippi when he sees a man fall off a steamboat. Dragging the man to shore, he descovers the guy has been shot, and a man in a nearby plantation tells him the dead man, Bill Howard, bet him he would dare go onto the nearby wreck of the Water Witch. Subby checks out this ship, and falls down a trap door, where he meets Rindigo Jones. After getting captured and thrown off the ship, Subby discovers the skeletons of Rindigo Jones and his comrades, but no chest, so he assumes it was taken by the stream. Shortly after, "Rindigo" conveniently tells us he is the real Rindigo's grandson, and is playing ghost to scare people away as he searches for the gold on the river bottom. Namor catches up to the Water Witch again, and takes chase, but the speeding ship overstrains it's boilers and is blown sky-high before he can catch up, and Subby alerts the authorities about the treasure so they can use it to finance the current war. 
Character appearances: 
Flashback: 
MR. ALLARDICE (dies) 
JONES, RINDIGO (dies off-panel) 
Story: 
NAMOR THE SUB-MARINER 
HOWARD, BILL (dies) 
JONES, RINDIGO II (dies. Not real name). 

Sub-Mariner Comics 7/4: 
A colleague of Pop asks him for help with outsmarting some kids playing pratical jokes. Pop, after falling for a joke with an explosive cigar himself (supposdly on purpose, to get them off guard), rigs up a box with a boxing glove, but is caught in a similiar trap as the kids rigged the nearby police phone booth. 
Character appearances: 
CASEY "POP" O'KEEFE (last appearance ever, I believe)

			*	*	*

Oct 26, 2007 11:35 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

There's a nice, big gap between Invaders 16-FB & Invaders 16.(the Flashback was 'last month' in relation to the main story, and given other references throughout the series, that leaves about a month) By design or luck, that space just happens to start before the attack on Darwin. 

Some placement suggestions: 

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
... 
INV 16-FB 
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 5
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 5/2 
INV 16 
... 
CA: SL2 4 
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 6
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 6/2
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 7
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 7/3 
CA5 5-FB (11/42) 
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 8
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 8/2 
N@ 2/2 (1943) 
FS-DOCA: IM-FB 
CLAND 8-FB (1944) 
BP4 21-FB 
M/U 1-FB 
... 

ANGEL/THOMAS HALLOWAY (1940's hero) 
... 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 4/3 
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 5/3
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 6/3
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 7/2
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 8/4 
CV 1-FB 
... 

MacARTHUR, GEN. DOUGLAS 
*SUB-MARINER COMICS 5/2 
WI? 4 
SAGAHT 4-FB-FB 

FOLMA [ATLANTEAN] 
HUMAN TORCH 2/2 
HUMAN TORCH 3/3 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 5 

Up eventually: All-Winners 5-8!

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Nov 26, 2007 11:53 pm 
By Adamant

Finally, that last issue: 
Sub-Mariner Comics #8, coverdate Winter 1942-43 

Sub-Mariner Comics 8/1: 
Subby, returning from Europe (would be nice to have some of the other stories from this era around to help with placement), arrives at Goose Rock Lighthouse near Maine after crossing the Atlantic, where he observes the killing of German double agent Ritten by masked nazi agent "The Knife". Subby battles the villain, but is knocked off the the lighthouse and knocked unconscious (can't he fly?). Ritten said the words "Parris Island" (a US Marine base) as he died, so Subby makes a deal with navy intelligence to join the navy to track down The Knife. He grows suspicious of a Sgt. Howard, and when the train the outfit is travelling on is nearly blown up by a time bomb, he sets a trap for Howard by claiming to know The Knife's identity. The Knife shos up on the train and attacks Subby, but manages to elude capture once his murder attempt fails. Later, the outfit is sent to Guadalcanal to relieve a garrison there, and on their way "someone" sends info about the ship's location to a Japanese battleship which ttacks the outfit. Subby defeats them, and the outfit arrives at Guadalcanal, where they take the island from the Japanese troops. At the base, they are once again attacked by Japanese, and Howard sends a signal rocket to alert the enemy that the US soldier are running out of ammo, and knocks out Subby with a grenade when he is discovered, before escaping to the Japanese ship. Subby swims to a nearby base to get more ammunition, but the Japanese have already destroyed all the long range cannons when he returns. Subby swims over to the Japanese ship and forces the radio operator to tell the convoy to close in on the island, where they are blown to bits by the light cannons Subby got ammo for, as Subby drags Howard back to the island and hands him over to the soldiers. 
Character appearances: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
THE KNIFE/SGT. B. R. HOWARD 
RITTEN (dies) 
CORP. MCBRIDE 

This is an interesting story that can probably be pinned down to a pretty exact date due to it's setting. Subby participates in the battle for Guadalcanal, "clears the island of Japanese", and fights off a number of Japanese battleships. Sould place the story around mid-November '42 - anyone more knowledgable of this battle than me who can place it better? 

Sub-Mariner Comics 8/2: 
Subby is hanging around in the sea near the Alaskan coast when he sees a US navy blimp being shot down. After fighting off the Japanese soldiers who come to retrieve it, he locates the blimp's crew, and unload them on the Japanese cutter that shot them down after ridding said ship of it's Japanese crew. Shortly after, he discovers a US supply ship, attempts to protect it, but fails as a Japanese ship disguises itself as American and guns it down. After sinking that ship, he returns to the blimp and digs it's instruments down to protect it from the Japanese who are obviously planning something around the area. He finds an inland covoy, and follows it as he finds it taking a wrong turn onto a fake road prepare by... American soldiers? Turns out the Japanese are using a serum to bend the soldiers' will. Subby beats up a group of them, but is fought off and thrown in the sea. Returning, he disguises himself as a hypnotized American soldier, frees a bunch of Americans, guns down a lot of Japanese, chases off the Japanese doctor in charge of the serum, follows him to his ship and captures him, then forces him to give the hypnotized Americans an antidote. Happy ending. 
Character appearances: 
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 

Sub-Mariner Comics 8/3: 
It's Saturday, but Tubby and Tack can't play until they finish their chores. They hurry to get them done quickly, but end up too exhausted to play. 
Character appearances: 
TUBBY 
TACK 

Sub-Mariner Comics 8/4: 
Tubby and Tack get a dollar each to buy defense stamps. After leaving the office with their stamps, they hear a newsboy yell about a recently sun Japanese convoy, and run off to get more money. Remember, kids, support your country, buy war bonds and stamps! :P 
Character appearances: 
TUBBY 
TACK 

Sub-Mariner Comics 8/5: 
Failed mystery author Caleb Crane adopts the persona of the murderer White Tarnation to write more realistic crime fiction, and eventually becomes the head of a mob. The Angel discores similarities between the stories Crane writes and the crimes the Tarnation and his mob do, and when the former mob leader, Grogan, whom Crane deliberately fought in front of the Angel and then claimed escaped to clear the Angel's suspicion of him, is found dead, the Angel sets up a trap by putting an ad in the paper for mystery stories, and insulting Crane's writing when he sends a story to him. Crane attempts to kill the "editor" of the "magazine", but walks into a trap and ends up arrested. Crane attempts to get sympathy by writing a phony, tear-jerking confession, but the Angel calls his trick, and then foils Crane's subsequent escape. 
(oh, and the Angel doesn't seem to have a secret identity anymore, as the police recognize him out of costume, and he fights off a mob without bothering to disguise himself) 
Character appearances: 
WHITE TARNATION/CALEB CRANE (dies) 
MRS. MCGINTY 
JAMES NODD 
ANGEL/THOMAS HALLOWAY 
WELLER 
GROGAN (dies) 

Sub-Mariner Comics 8/6: 
Tubby and Tack wake up early to play, but all their friends are still asleep. They go back to bed, but are soon woken up but their friends who yell at them for sleeping the day away. 
Character appearances: 
TUBBY 
TACK

			*	*	*

Thread 31

Subject: Zemo -- Born Better #1

Feb 16, 2007 11:34 am 
By SKleefeld
Director

First off, the basic plot: In the present, Wendell Volker is trying to finish his doctoral thesis on the Zemo family. Helmut Zemo, after his bout with Grandmaster over in TBOLTS, got thrown back in time instead of being killed like everyone thought. So, just keep in mind that we're going to be switching time periods frequently. I'll try to make it as obvious as I can in this and subsequent reviews, but don't hesitate to call me out when I miss a beat. 

Also, since we're looking at the Zemo family, there are several different Zemos in play. I suggest everyone discussing this book make explicit WHICH Zemo they're talking about at any given time. 

That said, on with the analysis... 

pp. 1-4 -- The present. Wendell Volker is in his Manhattan apartment reviewing his notes on the Zemo family for his doctoral thesis. He essentially summarizes both Heinrich and Helmut's histories up through Helmut's apparent death. Volker notes that "Hemlut Zemo has been gone for three months." Appearances by: Wendell Volker 

pp. 5-7 -- We cut to "Castle Zemo, 1503". Harbin Zemo, noted as the first Baron Zemo, is having his formal portrait carved in woodblock. He has evidently been in power of the local hamlet for decades, and his temper has become short. He storms out to the parapet to think and is soon joined by his son Hademar. Hademar tries to counsel his father, much to Harbin's chagrin, and Harbin dares Hademar to kill him and take the barony for himself. Hademar, to no surprise, slinks away. Appearances by: Baron Harbin Zemo, Mr. Kleinenshvitz (an aide), Mr. Drer (the artist), Hademar Zemo 

p. 8 panels 1-3 -- Back in the present. Volker is examing a portrait (printed out from his computer) of Hademar, his unnamed wife, and their son Heller. Appearances by: Wendell Volker 

p. 8 panel 4 - p. 9 -- Back in the 1500s. Heller is boy of maybe 8 or 10 but it's unclear how long after pp. 5-7 this occurs. Heller visits the Castle Zemo dungeon to speak with a prisoner he calls "Leper." Turns out that this is Helmut Zemo cast back into the past after his encounter with Grandmaster. Appearances by: Heller Zemo, Baron Helmut Zemo 

pp. 10- 12 -- Back in the present. Volker is attending a physics lecture at Columbia University presented by Mr. Fantastic. We learn that Volker is Belgian, but it's not clear whether or not he actually attends Columbia. Volker meets Reed after the lecture and shows him notes that suggest that Helmut was not actually atomized in his fight with Grandmaster, but transported through time. Reed is surprised that this could be generated by students "in three months" (suggesting this occurs around the same time as pp. 1-4) but Volker notes that, "You have been... busy... here with... other issues -- but Zemo's disappearance gained a lot of attention in Germany. Theories of what happened to him have become a cottage industry." Reed verifies Volker's equations. Appearances by: Wendell Volker, Mr. Fantastic 

pp. 13-17 -- Heller is taking Helmut (in chains and escorted by two guards) for a walk, as they talk about the differences between a ruler and a leader. Hademar accosts them and demands that Heller spend no more time with Helmut. Hademar threatens Helmut (noting that Harbin is still alive and in control) and Helmut stands defiantly against him. In his rage, Hademar kills the two guards and leaves. Appearances by: Baron Helmut Zemo, Heller Zemo, Hademar Zemo 

p. 18 -- "Several weeks" later Harbin dies of old age. Helmut admits surprise as history has recorded that Harbin died in battle. Appearances by: Baron Hadmir Zemo, Hademar Zemo, Heller Zemo, Mr. Kleinenshvitz. (It's also possible that one of the women shown is Hademar's wife, but she is holding a girl who was not depicted in the previously shown family portrait and there is no interplay between her and either Hademar or Heller. That raises some doubt in my mind to her identity.) 

pp. 19-22 panel 4 -- Heller visits Helmut in the dungeon and talks of the changes Hademar wishes to implement. Helmut convinces Heller to do something about it, so Heller takes some guards, barges in on Hademar's coronation and kills him. Heller, with his father's blood still on his face, returns to the dungeon only to find that Helmut has disappeared. I'll note that Heller appears not to age through the entire issue, so I think -- given his young age -- it can be presumed that all of his appearances here occur within a fairly short time-frame. Appearances by: Baron Helmut Zemo, Baron (briefly) Hademar Zemo, Heller Zemo 

p. 22 panel 5 - p. 23 -- Back in the present. Volker is in his apartment going over his notes. He resolves to bring back Helmut and claims to know how to do it. As a side note, there's an image (a printout of a painting?) of what is suggested to be a twenty-ish Baron Heller Zemo holding the hands of a young woman. Appearances by: Wendell Volker

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Feb 16, 2007 8:23 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for this analysis, Sean. With the "three-month" gap, this must be the chronologically latest story in print, and we see a glimpse of Reed very post-CW. Sean, is there any reason not to assume that all the present scenes occur during the course of a single day?

Paul B.

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Feb 16, 2007 9:04 pm 
By SKleefeld
Director

There's really no sense of time in the present-day scenes. It could easily be 1 day. 

That said, it really just affects Volker anyway so it's not terribly significant either way.

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Feb 16, 2007 9:07 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I'd give it three (not necessarily consecutive) days - first day's the stuff before the Reed scene, second day's the Reed scene, third day's the stuff after that. 

But as Sean says, it's not critical whatever way.

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Feb 17, 2007 9:36 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Not unless you're doing calendar entries.  

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I tend to favor fewer calendar entries to make life simple, so I'll enter all of Z:BB 1 (the contemporary scenes) in one day. If evidence does crop up in future issues that scenes in Z:BB 1 occurred on different days, I'll update accordingly. 

Thanks.

Paul B.

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Apr 15, 2007 8:23 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I finally got around to reading the first three issues of this, and something occured to me. 

Now that we know exactly how many Baron Zemos there have been(13), will we renumber Helmut Zemo as Baron Zemo XIII, Heinrich Zemo as Baron Zemo XII, etc? 

On a similar note, the Immortal Iron Fist 4 mentions that there have been 66 Iron Fists, making Danny Rand Iron Fist LXVI... 

And yes, I can handle the WWII portions of Zemo: Born Better 3 & 4 when issue 4 comes out. 

Big surprise, eh?

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

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Apr 15, 2007 9:24 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
will we renumber Helmut Zemo as Baron Zemo XIII, Heinrich Zemo as Baron Zemo XII, etc? On a similar note, the Immortal Iron Fist 4 mentions that there have been 66 Iron Fists...
<<<

Personally, I'd tend towards a renumbering, yes. Which reminds me, New Excalibur #12 revealed that there were eight or nine Black Knights prior to Sir Percy, didn't it? 

-Jeph!

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Apr 16, 2007 1:35 am 
By Somebody
Director

We've always known Helmut is Thirteenth Baron Zemo though, no? He certainly says so in Tbolts #1, and I'm sure it was mentioned a lot earlier than that...

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Apr 17, 2007 10:43 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Which reminds me, New Excalibur #12 revealed that there were eight or nine Black Knights prior to Sir Percy, didn't it? 
<<<

Something like that... 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
We've always known Helmut is Thirteenth Baron Zemo though, no?
<<<

You're right, but we're actually seeing the other Zemos make appearances in this series, giving us more of a reason to renumber him and his kid.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

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Apr 18, 2007 10:27 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
We've always known Helmut is Thirteenth Baron Zemo though, no?
<<<

You're right, but we're actually seeing the other Zemos make appearances in this series, giving us more of a reason to renumber him and his kid.
<<<

The first Baron Zemo originally appeared in the Avengers/Thunderbolts LS.

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Nov 21, 2007 11:35 am 
By Somebody
Director

Do we have a placement for the present-day scenes of this yet? It's only in the last month or so, with Reed returning to Earth and the F4 on an ongoing basis, that it's become tenable to start trying to place it. 

It's got to be between FF550 (Reed & Sue back) and FF554 (Millar/Hitch issue 1, new F4 costumes with various changes, including a lack of belts - incidentally, wasn't there a miniseries with odd F4 costumes, notable especially for their lack of belts?), but that's probably a bit of a range. So... 

[Gratutious link to #2-4 analysis.]

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Nov 23, 2007 11:12 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
It's got to be between FF550 (Reed & Sue back) and FF554 
<<<

A lot of appearances by Reed may have to fit in this period, including not only Z:BB, but also (in no particular order): 
SENSM2 35-36 
S-H4 21 
M/CP2 2 
SUBM3 4 
NA:I2 5 
FNSM 24 
and maybe Franklin Richards: Monster Mash. 

If the story arc begun in FF 551 goes without breaks through FF 554, a number of appearances will need to be shoehorned between FF 550 and 551, which appears to occur shortly after the original group is reunited, given the euphoria that Ben and Johnny feel about that fact in FF 551. 

Of course, the list above assumes that Reed and Sue were called back to earth to deal with World War Hulk, then returned to Titan (with Reed recuperating there) prior to FF 547. And we'd have to assume that Reed made it from Titan to Vermont (where he's seen in WWH 1) in less than an hour (judging by a time reference in WWH 1). 

I'm still working how this all comes together.

Paul B.

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Nov 24, 2007 8:24 am 
By Somebody
Director

I'm 82.5% certain there will be a gap - and either implicitly or explicitly a significant one - between FF553 & 554. 

Certainly, Millar started on his run before McDuffie started on his, so if there is a tie it'll be purely from McDuffie's end. 

[And when I suggested that Reed'n'Sue appeared in WWH during FF543-550, I'd forgotten about the Silent War #1/WWH4 thing. Unless SW1 (1-15) gets pushed back to before/during CW after all....]

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Nov 24, 2007 12:09 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
And when I suggested that Reed'n'Sue appeared in WWH during FF543-550, I'd forgotten about the Silent War #1/WWH4 thing. Unless SW1 (1-15) gets pushed back to before/during CW after all....]
<<<

I don't think the beginning of SILWAR 1 needs to be pushed before CW, but rather just before WWH, and I think this can work, as noted in another thread. Gorgon's attack must occur before WWH, given the reference to it in WWH 4. (The reference to it occurring "last month" relative to WWH4 is debatable, but I'm actually making that work...technically.) 

So, how about... 

1) Reed and Sue take a weekend break from their lengthy second honeymoon on Titan to visit the kids. That night, T'Challa and Storm take off for some R&R. Gorgon and company attack the theater and Reed and Sue join their FF teammates in responding to the emergency. [SILWAR 1 (1-14)] 

2) The very next morning, Gorgon is interrogated. His captor says the president will make an address "today" [SILWAR 1 (15-19)], but that doesn't happen because a new crisis occurs... 

3) That very day, the Hulk arrives on the moon and takes out Black Bolt. He heads to earth and gives his ultimatum in WWH 1. Reed and Sue are around already to respond to this crisis. [WWH 1] 

4) The WWH crisis lasts for two more days. One the third day, Clarinda Roberts gives her testimony about the Inhumans' attack on the theater. By now, the month has changed. During the WWH crisis, Gorgon is in custody. 

5) After WWH, Reed and Sue return to Titan and Black Bolt recovers from his Hulk-inflicted wounds. 

6) SILWAR 1 then picks up with page 20, in which Gorgon is re-exposed to the Terrigen mists. 

7) SILWAR 2-6 occur. Neither Reed nor Sue appear (they're back in space). Attilan is destroyed. 

Giving Reed and Sue a simple excuse to return to earth (especially given that the honeymoon will have to be lengthy to accommodate lots of MU events) allows us to explain their appearance in both SILWAR and WWH without having to provide a time constraint for responding to the Hulk crisis. I would, however, hesitate to place more Reed appearances in this visit.Paul B.

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Nov 25, 2007 3:51 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Paul B. wrote: 
>>>
So, how about... 
<<<

Not quite, self. After doing more chronology work, I found out why trying to force FF 547-550 after WWH doesn't work...She-Hulk. 

In FF 547, She-Hulk appears in her SHIELD uniform, assisting with Initiative training. This must occur before S-H4 17-18, in which she turns on Stark after discovering that the Illuminati shot her cousin into space. Shulkie quits SHIELD, is stripped of her power by Stark, then she appears in H3 106 and WWH after this. 

I'm wondering now if there's a benefit to keeping T'Challa and Ororo as members of the FF after WWH, especially as I'm doubting that X 194-203 is synchronous with WWH. Although I admit I've probably overlooked a point on one of the several threads dealing with recent chronology. (If so, you can knock me on the forehead.) 

Can we have the following sequence... 

UX 486 -- Xavier returns w/powers 
UX 487-491 -- T'Challa & Ororo w/the FF, Beast tests Xavier 
X:ES 1 -- Xavier's back, Sam is well, Beast becomes obsessed w/restoriing mutants 
Endangered Species backups 
X 194-203 ~ C&DP 37-42 -- Cable dies, Sam injured 
C&DP 43-47 -- "weeks" later (but not six), T'Challa & Ororo w/the FF 
FF 547-550 -- Reed and Sue return 
SILWAR 1 (1-14) -- Reed and Sue w/FF before WWH 
WWH ~ WWH:X -- Attilan intact, Reed & Sue back but T'Challa & Ororo haven't quite left yet, Xavier's around but Sam isn't seen (in sick bay) 

Then Reed recuperates and T'Challa & Ororo finish moving out. Things are looking up for the FF, and that's where FF 551-553 come in. Then we have Reed's various other appearances prior to FF 554. 

Also after WWH is NX 33-43, because Mammomax (who appeared in WWH:X) dies in NX 34. This is followed by Messiah CompleX, in which Sam's still injured. CompleX occurs "days" after the NX story arc.Paul B.

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Nov 25, 2007 4:09 pm 
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Mammomax (who appeared in WWH:X)
<<<

Wait, what ? When did he appear exactly ?

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Nov 25, 2007 5:01 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yikes! I got my abbreviations mized up. He appeared in CW:X, not WWH:X.  

Yet...is there a reason NX 33-36 must occur before WWH? NX 36 is referred to as "the other day" in NX 38, and NX 38 is part of the story arc that occurs just prior to Messiah CompleX.

Paul B.

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Nov 26, 2007 2:16 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Oh, again with your temporal references. When kids say "the other day" they could mean just about anything. 

How does Mercury behave in WWH:X? Since she's still sobbing and in shock in NX #37 after her torture in #33-36, there could be some justification for placing any nice healthy appearance of hers prior to NX #33. 

-Jeph!

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Nov 26, 2007 2:25 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Moot. Mercury thinks "I'll die before I let anyone else hurt me like the Facility did" in WWH:X 1.

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Nov 26, 2007 10:30 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Good eye there, Somebody. I missed that reference, but caught the ones that Mercury made in WWH:X 3 about the previous story arc that ended in NX 32. 

So it sure looks like WWH occurs between issues #36 and 37 of NM.

Paul B.

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Nov 27, 2007 7:15 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

It also appears that, with X 201-203 going before WWH, the New X-Men's appearance in these issues also occur during the gap between NX 36 and 37 (chronologically between pages 23 and 24 of NX 36). Given the events in the story arc in X-Men, I'd also put them in X 190-193 during that gap. 

So we have... 
NX 33-36 
X 190-203 
WWH:X 1-3 
NX 37-43 
Messiah CompleX 

Does this make sense?

Paul B.
