	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Iron Man Annual v2 1-FB
2. Collective Man's 1st appearance (Hulk 250)
3. Missing John Jameson appearances
4. Initiative Annual 1
5. Spider-Man/Red Sonja mini
6. Randac
7. WOSM 81
8. New stories in reprint titles
9. Binary & Mentor II appearances not listed in MCP, UX 275
10. ASM@ 6/2 new material
11. Death of Ben Parker flashbacks
12. DRSTR2 corrections
13. Television?
14. Taylor Madison
15. A 382/2
16. NIGHTMARE
17. Ka-zar & Zabu in AT 14
18. Power Pack audit
19. The new calendar is up!!
20. Daredevil's origin
21. CA@ 10 adjustments
22. PHARAOH RAMA-TUT
23. AWC@ 4 adjustments
24. GUSTAV HAUPTMANN and LINDA LITTLETREE
25. origin of Galactus
26. M/CP 137/2
27. That Gyrich...

	Issue Analysis Forum
28. Eternals v3 1-7
29. X-Man Annual '97
30. Calendar; Moon Knight Annual 1
31. Ghost Rider Annual v2 1
32. Wolverine v3 50-55
33. Spider-Man/Red Sonja 1-5
34. Franklin Richards: Fall Football Fiasco 1
35. Wolverine: Origins 19
36. Wolverine: Origins 20
37. Marvel Saga #8-10
38. Spider-Man Family v2 6
39. Spider-Man Family v2 5
40. Alpha Flight #13
41. M/CP 99/4
42. Analysis for "What If" 2007 issues
43. Wolverine: Firebreak 1
44. Marvel Holiday Special 1

	Chat Forum
45. Apparently, JMS wanted his name off OMD...
46. Minus 1 Flashback issues
47. non-canon list?




Thread 1

Subject: Iron Man Annual v2 1-FB

Dec 01, 2007 1:17 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Iron Man Annual v2 #1 has a briefing scene talking about the events of Marvel Team-Up 82-85, where Madame Hydra uses a stolen Helicarrier and almost crashes it into Congress during a Presidential address. Of course, theres a FlashBack(via video) for context. 

M/TU 84 (5:3-5:5)-FB Madame Hydra and the Silver Samurai teleport aboard the Helicarrier. They replace the on-board doctors video-phone with one that hypnotizes whoever uses it. Over time, they will hypnotize a bunch of the crew. 

IM@2 1 (1-2)-FB Madame Hydra and some of her troops storm the Helicarrier and easily defeat the guards. 

M/TU 84 (5:6)-FB The Helicarrier belongs to Madame Hydra! 

It's not seamless... As originally written, she eventually just hypnotized everyone on board and took over. With this new FB, it looks like she just hypnotized enough of the crew for an easier assault/takeover. 

A placement suggestion: 

VIPER II 
 
CA 182 
M/TU 84 (2:4-4:3)-FB 
M/TU 57-BTS 
M/TU 74-BTS 
M/TU 84 (5:3-5:5)-FB 
*IM@2 1-FB 
M/TU 84 (5:6)-FB 
M/TU 85 (10:4)-FB 
M/TU 83-FB 
M/TU 85 (10:5)-FB 
M/TU 82-BTS 
M/TU 83 
M/TU 84 
M/TU 85 


Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Dec 01, 2007 2:03 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for checking the placement of the new flashback, Fury. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 2

Subject: Collective Man's 1st appearance (Hulk 250)

Dec 07, 2007 10:44 am 
By CoolJerk

Incredible Hulk #250, pg. 18 

Surprised me to see a page debuting Collective Man, Arabian Knight, Sabra and (maybe?) Ursa Major of the Soviet Super-Soldiers. Yes, they're one-panel cameos, but A) they're mentioned by name and B) only Sabra is acknowledged in TOHOTMU Deluxe Ed. as having her first appearance here as a cameo. 

Collective Man is widely thought to have debuted in Contest of Champions, along with Shamrock, Defensor, Talisman (Australia), Le Peregrine and Blitzkrieg. 

I checked the chronology project and only Collective Man needs the fix. 

Thanks for listening! 
PH

			*	*	*

Thread 3

Subject: Missing John Jameson appearances

Dec 07, 2007 11:25 am 
By jannepie

John Jameson definitely appears in WOSM 113, which is missing from the Project. 

I don't have the issues myself, but apparently John Jameson appears also in CA 389 and PPTSS 214. 

Can someone verify these?

			*	*	*

Dec 07, 2007 4:41 pm 
By Peter Fabricious

I have both issues, and John Jameson is in both of them.

Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Thread 4

Subject: Initiative Annual 1

Dec 07, 2007 11:17 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

According to FlashBacks in Initiative Annual 1/2 & 1/3, the Initiative book starts after the formation of the Mighty Avengers. I had thought the Initiative 1 was before Mighty Avengers 1, but this tells me otherwise. 

Also, the fourth story has a montage FlashBack to Project: Rebirth with one bit of new information: The Nazi's bullet hitting the Professor. This fits right between (6:1) & (6:2) of Captain America Comics 1. The rest of the montage has no new information. 

A suggestion: 

PROFESSOR REINSTEIN/DR. ABRAHAM ERSKINE 
... 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (5:4-6:7) 
TOS 63/2 (4:5) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (6:1) 
*A: TI@ 1/4-FB 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (6:2) 
TOS 63/2 (5:1-5:2) 
CA 109 (16:3-16:4)-FB

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Dec 08, 2007 4:10 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
According to FlashBacks in Initiative Annual 1/2 & 1/3, the Initiative book starts after the formation of the Mighty Avengers. I had thought the Initiative 1 was before Mighty Avengers 1, but this tells me otherwise. 
<<<

Actually, Fury, a flashback to which you're referring -- showing Armory helping the Mighty Ones battle Ultimo -- shows no new material. It's a direct repeat of a scene from A:TI 1. So we've known about the Initiative forming after the Mighty team for several months now.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 08, 2007 11:48 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Good times. I had totally forgotten about that, which is strange, because I really like Ultimo.

Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

			*	*	*

Thread 5

Subject: Spider-Man/Red Sonja mini

Mar 20, 2007 11:47 am 
By Somebody
Director

Because if someone else doesn't do it, you KNOW Enda will... 

Apparently, this is meant to be in Marvel continuity (although not quite present-day), as an explicit sequel to MTU 79 and UXM190-191. 

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=105660

			*	*	*

Mar 20, 2007 12:53 pm 
By Enda80

"His followers slaughtered Red Sonjas family, so she wont rest until his blood drips from her deadly blade." 

Does Dynamite's origin for Red Sonja follow that of the Earth-616 Red Sonja? Or did Kulan Gath slay cousins et al. of Sonja as opposed to her parents and immediate siblings? 

As for this time out, Kulan once again escapes from the necklace that had contained his spirit, and  since hes one smart and sinister sorcerer  hes going to prove that hes learned from his prior defeats. He knows Spider-Man had a hand in defeating him before, so hes going to target him right away  using a certain She-Devil with a sword! 
Kurt Busiek's run on Avengers in a story published in 2000 dealt with Gath's escape from the amulet post #190-191 of X-Men.

			*	*	*

Aug 04, 2007 7:39 am 
By Somebody
Director

Just read #1. The events of MTU 79 are explicitly referenced, the UX arc only in terms of Kulan Gath's modus operandi, and Gath's only bothered with the title characters as far as anyone stopping him goes. 

Otherwise (before the world's remade... again), MJ's a stage actress (she gets a part in a production of Macbeth at the start of the issue) and back living with Peter, and Peter's working for the Bugle. There's a "This takes place before Marvel's Civil War" tag on the credits page. Outside of a photo [and the cover], Brock-Venom hasn't shown up yet, although presumably he will turn up in #2 as promised. Beyond Venom, I don't forsee any significant placement clues coming up in future issues, given the remade-world setting. 

Offhand, I can't see why it's wouldn't be in-continuity (it's a same-universe cross-company crossover, true, but they're playing off a canonical precedent) - presumably, if it is, it would have to be somewhere between ASM2 50 (given MJ) and MKSM 5 (given Venom), and Gath's "death" in Avengers v3 would actually be him getting shunted back into the amulet. Or something like that.

			*	*	*

Sep 19, 2007 5:47 pm 
By Enda80

"His followers slaughtered Red Sonjas family, so she wont rest until his blood drips from her deadly blade." 

Does Dynamite's origin for Red Sonja follow that of the Earth-616 Red Sonja? Or did Kulan Gath slay cousins et al. of Sonja as opposed to her parents and immediate siblings? 
.................................................... 
Problem. In issue#2, Red Sonja refers to Kulan Gath having a hand in slaying her family. The Earth-616 Red Sonja's death was depicted in Kull and the Barbarians#3 and Savage Sword of Conan#78. I doubt we can fit Gath involvement in.

			*	*	*

Sep 19, 2007 10:05 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

I haven't read the Marvel version of Red Sonja's "origin" in years, (and no longer have those issues) but having read the recent Dynamite version, it basically states that Kulan Gath was the evil mastermind behind the marauders terrorizing the countryside, (and who slaughtered Sonja's family), not that he actively participated in their slaughter. So if that's the only objection, I think there's room to make it work. 

In this "Spider-Man/Red Sonja" mini-series, is there a flashback showing her origin? I know in the Dynamite Entertainment issues that I've read, (and I stopped reading after Issue #18), the killers of her family were worshippers of the "Borat Na Fori" a dark god whom Kulan Gath has ties with...I think this is totally Michael Oeming adding on his own twist to the origin, (but I'm unsure how much it conflicts with Sonja's Marvel history...which is the only history we're concerned with).Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Sep 20, 2007 1:29 am 
By dimadick

"I think this is totally Michael Oeming adding on his own twist to the origin, (but I'm unsure how much it conflicts with Sonja's Marvel history...which is the only history we're concerned with)" 

Perhaps he is trying to explain the enmity between Red Sonja and Kulan Gath. Back in "Marvel Team-Up" #79 (March, 1979) it was established that Gath suffered what was presumably his last "death" in the Hyborian Age when Red Sonja removed his heart from his body. The necklace containing his essence and the sword containing her essence were discovered together several millenia later in a European archaelogical ground. 

However nowhere in his various Conan appearances does Gath ever meet Sonja. They include "Conan the Barbarian" #14-15 (March - May, 1972) where his original body is killed, #253 (February, 1992) where Conan discovers him possessing the body of an old man, #256-260 (May - September, 1992) where he is reunited with his wife Vammatar and they both die fighting Shuma-Gorath and "Conan:Flame and the Fiend" #1-3" (August - October, 2000) where he is resurrected by his more recent wife Armati and gets decapitated by Conan. 

There seems to be a missing period in their history which Oeming tries to cover.

			*	*	*

Sep 20, 2007 6:32 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Conan and Red Sonja are depicted in a panel in Marvel Saga #1 confronting a silhouetted figure who could very easily be Kulan Gath; the distinctive headgear in particular suggests that it's supposed to be him.

			*	*	*

Sep 24, 2007 6:13 pm 
By Enda80

For what it is worth, Conan Saga#96 had a Red Sonja chronology article which suggested tentatively that Red Sonja faced Kulan Gath (in the battle where she tore out his heart pace MTU I#79) during the two to three years before she first met Conan, but since Kulan Gath appeared in his original body as late as CTB I#14-15, while Conan first met Red Sonja in #23, that could be a tight fit. Of course, if Kulan Gath's last escapade in the Hyborian Age was that unseen battle with Red Sonja where she tore out his heart, this can't work at all, due to his later CTB appearances. 

By the way, those chronology articles in Conan Saga and Savage Sword were hesitant to reference information from mainstream Marvel titles, so this Marvel Team-Up reference was a rare concession. 

Red Sonja, by the way, was seen in Conan's later years in King Conan#28.

			*	*	*

Oct 18, 2007 9:15 pm 
By Enda80

Red Sonja's Earth-616 origin 

Although her father Ivor coached his sons in swordplay, Sonja's mother takes care that the girl's education centered on househould work. Watching her brothers at practice, Sonja despaired of ever knowing more than a life of domestic monotony.

Then, one chill afternoon when Sonja was in her teens, a troop of fighting men rode up to the farmhouse, led by the man who was Ivor's second-in-command in his former mercenary company. With no provocations save perhaps an old grudge that has festered into unreasoning hatred, the intruder ordered his men to kill Ivor when he learned that his wooden leg would no longer allow him to soldier.

The murder triggered a storm of carnage, as the mercenaries ran amuck. Alone of her family, Sonja is spared the sword. Raped by the brutal commander, she was left to her fate in the wake of the attack, as the marauders burnt the house and rode off.

As the flames climbed into the bleak sky, a strange Vision came to Sonja: a bright, ethereal figure that hovered over her, blade in hand. The spectre offered the girl a life as a wanderer, and supreme skill in swordplay. But first she must pledge never to love any man unless he defeats her in fair battle: "Something," the shining Vision adds, "that no man is likely to do after this day."

Through some fantastic alchemy, the touch of the gossamer blade imparted great strength and lightning reflexes to Sonja. These new faculties were soon tested, as one of the soldiers snuck back to force himself on the girl. Instead he finds death - as the first man to fall before a very real sword in the hand of the reborn Red Sonja. That same steel, she vowed, would one day cleave the heart of the nameless captain who butchered her family.

Details of her career for the next two to three years are scarce, but she does manage to hone her miraculous powers with the blade.


Near the forest's edge, she happens upon three bandits torturing a halpless, bound wretch. Making short shrift of the robbers, she discovers the victim is the nameless mercenary captain who instigated the slaughter of her family. The bandits' torments have driven him mad. Cheated of her revenge, but knowing she will no longer be haunted by his hated face, she leaves him to be finished off by the wolves of Darkwood.

from SSOC#78, sequel to Kull and the Barbarians#2.


http://www.enworld.org/Inzeladun/conan/redsonja/sonja01.htm (transcribes Conan Saga#96)

http://www.enworld.org/Inzeladun/conan/redsonja/sonja03.htm

			*	*	*

Dec 12, 2007 11:08 pm 
By Somebody
Director

End of the day, and the series ends with the sort of reset button you'd expect - no-one except Spidey (and Sonja, see the note in a moment) who was inside the Hyperborianised bubble remembers anything. The only notable things are that (1) Sonja apparently gets warped back to her own time at the end, swearing to get Gath then too (rather than being a ghost of some sort - this may inform MTU79 placement for her...) and (2) Gath's amulet gets smashed rather than simply removed.

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Subject: Randac

Dec 13, 2007 8:59 pm 
By Arthur
Director

RANDAC 
T 146/2 
T 147/2 


*RANDAK This one should be deleted. AA2 10/2 is a reprint of T 146/2 (RANDAK is RANDAC) 
*AA2 10/2

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Subject: WOSM 81

Dec 14, 2007 8:36 am 
By cweed4

This issue has 2 different FB listings but only 1 flashback scene w/Spidey in the comic (the first 3 pages). What am I missing?

AAF 18
WOSM 81-FB ?
TW 2-FB
~
ASM 20
WOSM 81-FB ?
UTSM 23
~
XFOR 4
wOSM 81
wOSM 82-FB

The opening scene FB depicts a more experienced & confident that fits better in the latter placement if this is an erroneous double entry.

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Subject: New stories in reprint titles

Dec 13, 2007 1:51 am 
By Giant Ant

Maybe you folks can help me... 

Does anybody has a list of the reprint titles (and issue numbers) in wich new stories appeared? For example, I know that new back-up stories sometimes appeared in Marvel Tales to compensate for the lower page count of the reprinted issue, or that Marvel Treasury Edition sometimes featured new stories, such as in the Winter Olympic issue. 

Any help would be appreciated. 
Thank you

			*	*	*

Dec 13, 2007 10:56 am 
By cweed4

Spiderfan.org has a complete listing for Marvel Tales- 
http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/title/marvel_tales.html

			*	*	*

Dec 14, 2007 2:34 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

http://www.freewebs.com/marvelreprints/reprints.html 


watching: dirty jobs

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

Thread 9

Subject: Binary & Mentor II appearances not listed in MCP, UX 275

Nov 24, 2007 7:00 am 
By GodRob

Mentor II of the Imperial Guard possibly appears in Uncanny X-Men 275. He's not mentioned by name and the coloring is off, but the artwork appears to be him: 

UX 275 page 16, panel 5 getting "flashed" by Jubilee, colored entirely yellow due to the flash. 

UX 275 page 17 panel 1 with Jubilee sitting on him, colored entirely gray, possibly in shadows (although no one else is in shadow. This could be a poorly drawn Earthquake with five fingers on each hand and Mentors headband). 

Normally he's green, but his distinctive headband is recognizable in both pictures. Maybe. I'm not entirely convinced on this one and would welcome opinions. 

This would place him: 

ROM @4 
UX 275 
GUARD 1-FB 


Binary appears in UX 276 and UX 277, but is never referred to by name. 

UX 276 page 30, panel 4: she's at the top of the apparatus behind Professor X and below the hanging Wolverine. Jubilee refers to her as "some round-eyed blondie". 

She's in the same position in UX 277 page 14, panel 4; page 22 panel 3; and partially shown on page 25, panel 1. 

Again, Lee's artwork isn't colored for background characters, but the character does appear in what appears to be "Binary" form, with flaming hair. Of course, her energy/hair is normally red or orange in this form so Jubilee's remark doesn't make much sense. Possibly Claremont trying to clear up the confusing artwork with dialogue, as he attempts to do throughout his run with Jim Lee. 

If that is Binary, her chronology would be updated as: 

XSOS 2 
UX 276 
UX 277 
Q 33 (Operation Galactic Storm) 

Note that in XSOS 2 she's a member of the Starjammers. In Q 33 she mentions that she's a Starjammer. The Starjammers appear throughout this Uncanny X-Men arc and Cr'Ree's even given BTS appearances. 

I used Gladiator II's chronology for the suggested placements of X-Men Spotlight on Starjammers 2 and Operation Galactic Storm as he appears in all three UX 275-277. 

edit: placed Mentor II between Rom Annual 4 and Imperial Guard 1 flashback. I have him in XSOS 2 but the MCP doesn't. I'll have to research this further.

			*	*	*

Nov 24, 2007 12:13 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

The Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, vol. 2 #5 doesn't list Mentor II in UX 275, nor does it list Binary in UX 276-277. Not that the Index can't be wrong, but it's something to consider.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 25, 2007 7:28 am 
By GodRob

Yeah, I guess I should have mentioned that I checked the index first.  

Of course, if they were listed in the Index, they would be in the MCP already, right? 

I just wanted opinions on whether the artwork in question would be enough to open a discussion for placement in the MCP. The artwork on Mentor II is subject to interpretation, but it was enough to convince me. The artwork on Binary is pretty clear in one panel, but still not 100% proof. 

I did the research for possible placement mainly to see if Binary was still a member of the Starjammers at the time. 

(No luck in showing the pictures here. I'll have to work on that.)

			*	*	*

Nov 25, 2007 7:53 am 
By Somebody
Director

Try uploading to http://www.imageshack.us

			*	*	*

Nov 26, 2007 5:19 am 
By GodRob

Thanks Somebody! 

Here goes: 

http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 2amzn0.jpg 

Got the link to work at least, but the picture as shown doesn't really help. I'll work more on this after work.

			*	*	*

Dec 15, 2007 7:30 am 
By GodRob

Ok, finally got the pictures to show up here! Next time, I'll be sure to include pictures in my first post if I need them. 

Mentor 

 

 

These pictures from Uncanny X-Men 275 show a bald Imperial Guardsman getting zapped and then sat on by Jubilee. The second picture shows Mentors distinctive headband (if you look closely). The gloves look similar in both pictures. Enough to include in the MCP? Maybe not. 

Binary 

 

 

These two pictures from UX 276 and UX 277 show a woman at the top of the skrull machine with a corona of energy around her head (just like Binary!) Two more panels un UX 277 show partial images of the woman. 

Any thoughts? Opinions?

				*	*	*

Thread 10

Subject: ASM@ 6/2 new material

Dec 15, 2007 4:24 pm 
By Arthur
Director

The second story in Amazing Spider-Man Annual 6 starts with the following editor's note: 

This memorable incident...first occured in "The Amazing Spider-Man" #1, March! It was merely a small two-page episode which began one of Spider-Man's greatest adventures! However we have received countless requests asking us to re-do this famous encounter, but to devote more space, showing it in all its exciting detail! and so...
The first two(?) pages of ASM 1/2 have been expanded to 6 pages with new material. I don't have copy (sigh!) of ASM 1 for validation. I do have a reprint of ASM 1/2 (Marvel Tales #138/2) and if the page/panelling there is accurate then these would be the insertions: 

For the Torch, Thing, Mr Fantastic and the Invisible Girl : 

FF@ 1/2 
**ASM@ 6/2 (1:1) shows FF relaxing at home before the alarm goes off 
ASM 1/2 (2:8 - 3:7) 
**ASM@ 6/2 (2:6 - 3:4) new Thing/Spidey fight scenes 
ASM 1/2 (3:8 - 3:9) 
**ASM@ 6/2 (3:7 - 4:4) new Mr Fantastic/Spidey fight scenes 
ASM 1/2 (4:1 - 4:2) 
**ASM@ 6/2 (4:7 - 5:4) new Invisible Girl/Spidey fight scenes 
ASM 1/2 (4:3 - 4:4) 
**ASM@ 6/2 (5:7 - 6:3) new Torch/Spidey fight scenes 
ASM 1/2 (4:5 - 10) 


Almost the same in Spider-Man's chronology: 

FF@ 1/2 
ASM 1/2 (1 - 2:7) 
**ASM@ 6/2 (1:1) shows FF relaxing at home before the alarm goes off 
ASM 1/2 (2:8 - 3:7) 
**ASM@ 6/2 (2:6 - 3:4) new Thing/Spidey fight scenes 
ASM 1/2 (3:8 - 3:9) 
**ASM@ 6/2 (3:7 - 4:4) new Mr Fantastic/Spidey fight scenes 
ASM 1/2 (4:1 - 4:2) 
**ASM@ 6/2 (4:7 - 5:4) new Invisible Girl/Spidey fight scenes 
ASM 1/2 (4:3 - 4:4) ) 
**ASM@ 6/2 (5:7 - 6:3) new Torch/Spidey fight scenes 
ASM 1/2 (4:5 - 10)

			*	*	*

Dec 15, 2007 7:32 pm 
By Enda80

This redaction first appeared in FF Annual#1.

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Subject: Death of Ben Parker flashbacks

Dec 15, 2007 7:44 pm 
By Arthur
Director

** new entries 

PARKER, BEN 

SM:PL 
ASM 200-FB 
**SENSM 23 (8:4)-FB Peter kneels by Bens dead body 
**ASM@ 25/2 (2:6)-FB Bens body being moved to ambulance 


SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 

AAF 15 (9:1) 
PPTSS 60/2 (13:1) 
AAF 15 (9:2) Peter nears home, sees police car. 
**ASM@ 25/2 (2:5)-FB Peter sees an ambulance as well as a police car outside the house 
PPTSS 60/2 (13:2) approaches policeman 
AAF 15 (9:3  9:5) gets bad news; runs into house 
SENSM 23-FB kneels beside Bens body 
**ASM@ 25/2 (2:6)-FB Uncle Bens body is taken from the house on a stretcher while Peter looks on. 
PPTSS 60/2 (13:6) goes back in to change to Spidey 
AAF 15 (9:6 - 9:7)

			*	*	*

Thread 12

Subject: DRSTR2 corrections

Dec 16, 2007 10:31 pm 
By Arthur
Director

ARISHEM [CELESTIAL] 

A 339-FB 
*DRSTR2 26/2-FB My copy of DRSTR2 26 does not have a second story. Typo? or is there a variant printing? 
T@ 7-FB-BTS 



WONG 

DRSTR3 83 
*DRSTR2 84 should read DRSTR3 84 
DRSTR3 88

			*	*	*

Dec 17, 2007 10:48 am 
By Enda80

It was in volume 3, sorry. A Book of the Vishanti back-up about werewolves that had Arishem in it.

			*	*	*

Dec 17, 2007 12:57 pm 
By Arthur
Director

duh! I can't believe I didn't think of that! 

thx Enda. 

The Book of the Vishanti back-ups started and ended with shots of Dr. Strange reading the book. Any thoughts where in his chronology they should be placed?

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Subject: Television?

Nov 28, 2007 12:09 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

How do we handle character appearances when they're on a pre-recorded TV show? In the context of the story, the TV show is being aired 'now', but the characters recorded their appearances x-weeks or x-months ago, and we're now seeing that recording. It's not a live TV appearance, it's pre-recorded. 

Do we ignore that's it's pre-recorded and treat it as a regular appearance? Or do we label it as a FlashBack, and just place it along with the current appearances? Or do we treat it as a regular Flashback and figure out when it was recorded? Or am I overthinking this?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Nov 28, 2007 1:22 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

I believe in the past we've treated it as a regular flashback, and have figured it when it was recorded. Unless someone remembers otherwise??

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Nov 28, 2007 1:35 pm 
By wolframbane

Would the same hold for photographs, if is is known when that photograph was taken?

			*	*	*

Nov 28, 2007 3:15 pm 
By Agent of Shield

What about when they posed for their statue?

			*	*	*

Nov 28, 2007 8:08 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
Would the same hold for photographs, if is is known when that photograph was taken?
<<<

Asked and answered, in the FAQ. 


watching: lost worlds

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

Nov 28, 2007 9:39 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I'd like to see a different notation for pre-recorded appearances ... "REC", maybe. 

I'd also like to see a notation for the times when there's a note or letter from a character. But then, I'm nuts. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Nov 29, 2007 12:31 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

It makes sense to treat it as a FlashBack. Also, I like the idea of noting is as something different from a regular FlashBack, like REC or something. As for letters and notes... 

yeah. You're nuts.  Thanks guys!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Nov 29, 2007 8:42 pm 
By Agent of Shield

I personally like to track newspaper headlines. Occasionally they reveal a chronological non-appearance within the context of a story. 

Probably no room for that in the MCP though.

			*	*	*

Dec 07, 2007 12:17 am 
By Dalarsco

I think that pictures and statues shouldn't be counted as appearances unless it is vitally important to the story for some reason. But TV appearances can be debatable. The appearance of the X-Men on TV in X-Factor during Fall of the Mutants is clearly a flashback, but what about Banshee's video in X-Factor (3rd series) #7? It holds zero storyline importance in any other place in continuity, but it was clearly filmed long before his death.

			*	*	*

Dec 17, 2007 1:00 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Yeah, that's exactly the sort of thing I'm referring to, Dalarsco. 

But ... statues? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Subject: Taylor Madison

Dec 17, 2007 1:05 pm 
By Arthur
Director

MADISON, TAYLOR 

A 381 
*A 382 should be deleted; the Taylor Madison seen in A 382 is actually Hera in disguise. Ares: I dare much HERA -- ...and here thou be...masquerading as the human, Taylor Madison. (11:2) 
A 384

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Subject: A 382/2

Dec 17, 2007 1:53 pm 
By Arthur
Director

Theres an entry in Giant-Mans chronology for A 382/3. 

A 382 does have a second story. Its also one of four issues (A 379  A 382) that had a variant DOUBLE FEATURE with a Giant-Man additional story. These Giant-Man features are referred to in the MCP as M/DF2 (MARVEL DOUBLE FEATURE VOL. 2). 

I do not have the Double Feature edition of A 382 (M/DF2 4), but as the DOUBLE FEATURE issues all say Giant-Man on the cover , I presume he is in it; however, there is no M/DF2 4 listing for Giant-man. 

So should this A 382/3 entry read M/DF2 4? 

Or should it read A 382/2? Like I said, there is a second story in A 382. It features Giant-Man, Black Widow, Vision and Captain America (VO). None of these show an A 382/2 entry. 

Black Widow, Vision and Cap all have an M/DF2 4 entry. Cap and Vision show M/DF2 4 as shortly before Wonder Mans memorial in FW 10/2 while Black Widows chronology has it almost immediately after. Is there some time break in M/DF2 4 that permits this variance? 

Missing the Double Feature edition of A 382 as I am, I need some help here.

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Subject: NIGHTMARE

Dec 17, 2007 3:53 pm 
By Arthur
Director

NIGHTMARE/"EDVARD HABERDASH" 

H2 360 
**M/FAN 51/2 The story is pretty generic and could be placed just about anywhere (at least anywhere after Dr. Strange becomes Sorceror Supreme). This placement is strictly by indicia date. 
XCAL 29-FB-BTS

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Subject: Ka-zar & Zabu in AT 14

Dec 15, 2007 9:49 pm 
By Arthur
Director

** new entries 

KA-ZAR/KEVIN PLUNDER 

AT 9 
**AT 14 This was obviously a fill-in issue. AT 14 takes place in the Savage Land. AT 13 and AT 15 take place in America with clear indication they did NOT return to Antarctica in the middle. 
AT 8 starts a connected arc of stories with Paul Allen and Barbara Morse (Mockingbird) that eventually takes Ka-zar to America. Although its conceivable that Ka-Zar went off on his own for a night between AT 10 and AT 11, or between AT 11 and AT 12, a more likely placement is before that arc begins. 
AT 8 


ZABU 

AT 9 
**AT 14 
AT 8

			*	*	*

Dec 17, 2007 1:07 pm 
By jephyork
Director

So, wait ... 9 before 8? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 17, 2007 2:00 pm 
By Arthur
Director

yeah.. AT 10 is the second part of AT 8 (with no time gap between), but the dreaded deadline doom struck and hence 9 was a fill-in.

			*	*	*

Dec 18, 2007 12:07 pm 
By Selaboc

Arthur wrote:
>>>
** new entries

KA-ZAR/KEVIN PLUNDER 

AT 9
**AT 14 This was obviously a fill-in issue. AT 14 takes place in the Savage Land. AT 13 and AT 15 take place in America with clear indication they did NOT return to Antarctica in the middle. 
<<<

IIRC the story in Astonishing Tales #14 that you are talking about was entitled "Night of the Looter". This was a censored reprinting of the story that previously appeared in Savage Tales #1 (which is in the Ka-zar entry under SVT 1/5 and placed between AT 7 and ASM 103) This story was also reprinted in another issue of Savage Tales (#6 if memory serves). So No change to the MCP is needed.

			*	*	*

Dec 18, 2007 12:16 pm 
By Selaboc

jephyork wrote:
>>>
So, wait ... 9 before 8?
<<<

Yep (that's the way it's currently listed in the MCP). The reason is, as Arthur pointed out, because 9 was a fill in that appeared between consecutive issues of an ongoing storyline (one in which Ka-zar leaves the Savageland for the remainer of his AT run) so it either has to go before Ka-zar leaves, IE before AT 8 or after he returns which would not be until the first issue of his mid-1970s series (about a dozen comic book issues later).

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Subject: Power Pack audit

Nov 22, 2007 6:58 pm 
By Arthur
Director

Power Pack Audit 

Power Pack 1-62, Holiday Special 1 and Power Pack:Peer Pressure 1-4 

Note: The Holiday Special is not yet in the MCP. It is referenced here as PP:HS 1 

* adjustment required 
** new entries 

**AIRHEAD (2 members of the 5-member group, Trash, are already in the MCP. This is one of the missing three) 
**PP 31 
**PP32 


**ALLEN, RANDY 
**PP:PP 1 
**PP:PP 2 
**PP:PP 4 


**AWF [ZNRX] (one of Queen Marauds soldiers) 
**PP 16 
**PP 23 
**PP 22 
**PP 24 
**PP28 


BEAST/HENRY "HANK" P. MCCOY 
*XF 7 (1-16:2 ) (entry split to accommodate FB) 
**PP 27-FB (1:4) TV footage of the attack on X-Factor HQ, showing Bulk alongside Beast, Cyclops and Iceman 
*XF 7 (16:3 : 22:7) 


BEAUTIFUL DREAMER 
UX 195 
*PP 19-BTS Im not seeing any reason for this BTS. PP 19 Is about Katie attending a Thanksgiving parade and about her inviting super-friends to a Thanksgiving dinner. Erg meets Katie and tell her that Annalee and Leech will attend but that the rest of us drain dwellers have made other plans. Later we see Annalee and Leech, then Ape in the alley, but no reference to or indication of anyone else. Im sure Dreamer was around somewhere but does that warrant a BTS?. (see also Tarbaby below) 
XF 10 


**BHADSHA, EMPEROR [ZNRX] 
**PP 21 
**PP 22 
**PP 23 
**PP 24 
**PP 25 
**PP 26 


*BOGEYMAN /DOUGLAS M. CARMODY (full name: PP 43 (4:7)) 
**PP 5 
**PP 14 
**PP 15 
**PP 37-VO (7:4 voice on phone) 
**PP 39 
PP 40 
*PP 41 Should be removed. Bogeyman does not appear in PP 41 
PP 42 
PP 43 


**BRUTE II (2 members of the 5-member group, Trash, are already in the MCP. This is another of the missing three) 
**PP 31 
**PP 32 


*BRUTE III/ currently in MCP as BRUTE II . 
NM 99 
NM 100 


**BULK 
**XF 7 (1-16:2) 
**PP 27 (1:4)-FB TV footage of the attack on X-Factor HQ, showing Bulk alongside Beast, Cyclops and Iceman 
**XF 7 (16:3-22) 


*BYREL this whole entry should be moved to WHITEMANE, BYREL [KYMELLIAN] <see below> 
*PP 4 
*PP 43 
*PP 50 
*PP 51 
*PP 53 
*PP:PP 3 


CARLISLE, MELISSA BOWEN 
**C&D3 19-FB (8:3) 
C&D2 2 


CARLISLE, PHILLIP 
**C&D3 19-FB (9:1-9:2) 
C&D2 2 
C&D2 3 

. . . 

C&D3 6 
*PP 53 Should be PP 53-FB. Most of PP 53 is in flashback as told by Typhoid Mary to Dr Doom. 
C&D3 12 


**CHOLLEY [BURROWER] 
**PP 23-OP 
**PP 24 
**PP 25 


CLOAK/TYRONE JOHNSON 
*C&D3 19 (8:1- 11:3)-FB entry split to accommodate new FBs; Tandy and Tyrone arrive in New York and are taken to Ellis Island 
**PPTSS 64 (15:3-15:5)-FB Ty being manhandled, untied; Marshall preparing injection 
*C&D3 19 (11:4)-FB Tyrone being held for injection 
**PP 7 (13:3)-FB Ty and Tandy tied up before being injected. Obviously the kids struggled a bit too much and needed to be restrained. 
**PPTSS 64 (16:1/2)-FB Ty tossed into holding area with other kids 
*C&D3 19 (12:1)-FB Ty sees all dying; Tandy hurting 
**PPTSS 64 (17:1-17:3)-FB Ty and Tandy escape the building 
*C&D3 19 (12:2-14:1)-FB Ty and Tandy swim for freedom,aquire powers and code names 

. . . 

*{PPTSS 64} (14:18:1) entry split to accommodate new FB 
**PP 7-FB (13:4) Shows Spider-Man, assisting Cloak & Dagger and attacking thugs before Dagger tries to stop him from interfering 
*PPTSS 64 (18:2-21:8) 


COUNTERWEIGHT/JACK POWER 
PP 52 
*PP 53 Should be PP 53-FB. Most of PP 53 is in flashback as told by Typhoid Mary to Dr Doom. 
PP 54 


COUNTERWEIGHT II/KATIE POWER 
PP 57 
*PP 58 (1-7) entry split to accommodate new FB 
**PP 58 (15:3/2-15:4)-FB video footage of the beginnings of the confrontation with Nova. The press doesnt arrive on the scene until Jack is already battling Nova so this must be prior to that possibly a civilian home video 
**PP 58 (24:3)-FB further footage of the Pack racing into battle 
*PP 58 (8-24) 
PP 59 

. . . 

XCAL 29 
PP 62 
**PP:HS 1/1 
**PP:HS 1/2 
**PP:HS 1/3 
NW@ 1/8 


CRAZYLEGS/ 
**PP 31 
**PP 32 
CAGE 11 


CYCLOPS II/SCOTT SUMMERS 
XF 6 
*XF 7 (1-16:2) entry split to accommodate new flashback 
**PP 27 (1:4)-FB TV footage of the attack on X-Factor HQ, showing Bulk alongside Beast, Cyclops and Iceman 
*XF 7 (16:3-22) 
ASM 282 


DAGGER/TANDY BOWEN 
M/SH3 6/3-FB 
*C&D3 19 (8:1- 11:3)-FB entry split to accommodate new FBs; Tandy and Tyrone arrive in New York and are taken to Ellis Island 
**PPTSS 64 (15:3-15:5)-FB Ty being manhandled, untied; Marshall preparing injection 
*C&D3 19 (11:4)-FB Tyrone being held for injection 
**PP 7 (13:3)-FB Ty and Tandy tied up before being injected. Obviously the kids struggled a bit too much and needed to be restrained. 
**PPTSS 64 (16:1/2)-FB Ty tossed into holding area with other kids 
*C&D3 19 (12:1)-FB Ty sees all dying; Tandy hurting 
**PPTSS 64 (17:1-17:3)-FB Ty and Tandy escape the building 
*C&D3 19 (12:2-14:1)-FB Ty and Tandy swim for freedom,aquire powers and code names 

. . . 

*{PPTSS 64} (14:18:1) entry split to accommodate new FB 
**PP 7-FB (13:4) Shows Spider-Man, assisting Cloak & Dagger and attacking thugs before Dagger tries to stop him from interfering 
*PPTSS 64 (18:2-21:8) 

. . . 

C&D3 9 
*PP 53 Should be PP 53-FB. Most of PP 53 is in flashback as told by Typhoid Mary to Dr Doom. 
C&D3 10 


**DATA [SMARTSHIP] (Yrik had a Smartship named DATTA that was destroyed in PP 16; I am assuming this is a new different Smartship that just happens to have a similar name) 
**PP:PP 1 
**PP:PP 2 
**PP:PP 3 
**PP:PP 4 


DESTROYER VI/ALEX POWER 
PP 52 
*PP 53 Should be PP 53-FB. Most of PP 53 is in flashback as told by Typhoid Mary to Dr Doom. 
PP 54 
FF 337 
PP 55 
**PP:HS 1/1 
**PP:HS 1/2 
**PP:HS 1/3 
See Powerpax 


DESTROYER VII/JACK POWER 
PP 57 
*PP 58 (1-7) entry split to accommodate new FB 
**PP 58 (15:3/2-15:4)-FB video footage of the beginnings of the confrontation with Nova. The press doesnt arrive on the scene until Jack is already battling Nova so this must be prior to that possibly a civilian home video 
**PP 58 (24:3)-FB further footage of the Pack racing into battle 
*PP 58 (8-24) 
PP 59 

. . . 

PP 62 
**PP:HS 1/1 
**PP:HS 1/2 
**PP:HS 1/3 
NW 48 


**DiANGELO, MR 
**PP 7-FB-BTS (13:3) 
**PP 7 
**PP 8 


**FINEBERG, LAWRENCE LARRY 
**PP 46 (13:2)-FB -Jerome Horowitz rejects kidnapping plan 
**PP 21 (1-11) -- kidnapping 
**PP 46 (13:3)-FB --Larry and Moe question Jessica 
**PP 21 (12-23) --- caught 
**pp 46 (13:4)-FB --- in jail, hear about Jeromes fortune 
**PP 46 -- still in jail 


**FIREMANE/ONIJAY [KYMELLIAN] 
**PP 50 
**PP 51 
**PP 52 


FRIDAY [SMARTSHIP] 
**PP 1-FB (20:4) attacked by Snark ships 
PP 1 

. . . 

PP 10 
**PP 17 
PP 18 

. . . 

PP 26 
**PP 43 (7:5) Fridays life essence in in life support chamber 
**PP 48 (17:1) Fridays life essence in in life support chamber 
**PP 49 (6:1) Fridays life essence in in life support chamber 
PP 50 

. . . 

PP 62 
**PP:HS 1 
NW 65 
NW 73-BTS 
NW 74 
NW 75 
**PP:PP 1 
**PP:PP 2 
PP:PP 3 
**PP:PP 4 


**GARBAGE MAN/ 
**PP 31-BTS (hired Razor Cut et al.) 
**PP 32 


**GEIK [ZNRX] (one of Queen Marauds soldiers) 
**PP 16 
**PP 23 
**PP 24 
**PP28 


**GHOSTMARE/KYM [KYMELLIAN] 
**PP 50 
**PP 51 
**PP 52 


GILBERT, PROFESSOR GREGSON 
FF 35 
SUB-M 15 
**PP 6 
**PP 7 
**PP 8 
**PP 19-OP 


**GLOW WORM 
**XF 7 (1-16:2) 
**PP 27 (1:4)-FB-OP TV footage of the attack on X-Factor HQ, showing Bulk alongside Beast, Cyclops and Iceman 
**XF 7 (16:3-22) 


**HADJ [ZNRX] 
**PP 21 
**PP 22 
**PP 23 
**PP 24 
**PP 25 


**HORWITZ, JEROME 
**PP 46 (13:2)-FB --Jerome Horowitz rejects kidnapping plan 
**PP 46 (15:2)-FB - steals the money 
**PP46 (13:4)-FB - rollin in dough 
**PP 46 


**HORWITZ, MOSES MOE 
**PP 46 (13:2)-FB - Jerome Horowitz rejects kidnapping plan 
**PP 21 (1-11) -- kidnapping 
**PP 46 (13:3)-FB --Larry and Moe question Jessica 
**PP 21 (12-23) --- caught 
**pp 46 (13:4)-FB --- in jail, hear about Jeromes fortune 
**PP 46 -- still in jail 


**HORWITZ, SAMUEL 
**PP 46 (13:2)-FB -planning kidnapping with his brothers 
**PP 46 


ICEMAN/ROBERT "BOBBY" DRAKE 
*XF 7 (1-16:2 ) (entry split to accommodate FB) 
**PP 27-FB (1:4) TV footage of attack on X-Factor Headquarters 
*XF 7 (16:3 : 22) 


IGOR 
Q 6 
*PP 62-FB Igor does not appear in the flashback (9:3), only the Red Ghost 
PP 61 
PP 62 


JAKAL [ZNRX] 
PP 25 
**PP 26 (Emperor Bhadsha in Jakals body) 
PP:PP 1 


**JONES, JESSICA WILCOX 
**PP 46-FB (15:3-15:4) Jessica and her driver, Jonathan, get box of cash and bury it. 
**PP 21 (1-11) -- kidnapped 
**PP 46 (13:3)-FB -- threatened 
**PP 21 (12-23) --- rescued 
**PP 46-FB (2:6) -- released by police after questioning 
**PP 46 


KENT, CLARK 
A 327 
**PP 57 (11:6) 
WOSM 75 


*KOFI [KYMELLIAN] this whole entry should be moved to WHITEMANE, KOFI [KYMELLIAN] <see below> 
*PP 16 
*PP 17 
*SWII 6 
*PP 18 
*PP 19 
*PP 22 
*PP 23 
*PP 24 
*PP 25 
*PP 26 
*PP 28 
*PP 43 
*PP 49 
*PP 50 
*PP 51 
*PP 52 
*PP:PP 1 
*PP:PP 2 
*PP:PP 3 
*PP:PP 4 



LIGHTSPEED/JULIE POWER 
PP 57 
*PP 58 (1-7) entry split to accommodate new FB 
**PP 58 (15:3/2-15:4)-FB video footage of the beginnings of the confrontation with Nova. The press doesnt arrive on the scene until Jack is already battling Nova so this must be prior to that possibly a civilian home video 
**PP 58 (24:3)-FB further footage of the Pack racing into battle 
*PP 58 (8-24) 
PP 59 

. . . 

PP 62 
**PP:HS 1 
**PP:HS 1/2 (1-3) 
**PP:HS 1/2-FB (4:7 -6:1) 
**PP:HS 1/2 (4-5) 
**PP:HS 1/3 
NW 48 


**LIGHTTRAKKER/REBECCA LITTLEHALE 
**PP 37 
**PP 39-FB (2:4-2:5) TV interview 
**PP 39 
**PP 40 


LITTLEHALE, MR 
**PP 37 
**PP 39-FB (2:4-2:5) TV interview 
**PP 40 


LITTLEHALE, MRS 
**PP 37 
**PP 39-FB (2:4-2:5) TV interview 
**PP 39 
**PP 40-FB-VO (13:2) TV interview 
**PP 40 


MAD THINKER 
FF 300-BTS 
FF 301 
M/FAN 46 
ASPOT 28/2 
**PP 54-FB (12:1) mind controlling the prison guard to activate the simulacrum that we actually see in PP 54 
*PP 54 At best this should be a BTS. The physical figure in PP 54 is one of the Thinkers simulacra. While the simulacra in FF 300 and FF 301 act and talk as if they were the Thinker (i.e. his consciousness is inhabiting the simulacrum), the simulacrum in PP 54 either refers to the Thinker in the third person or else is shown as mixing up the I/he concept. It even ponders if it might not be even more crafty than its master. The thinker did not activate it by projecting his consciousness into it (as in FF 300 and 301), but rather had to send a controlled guard to do the actual activation. IMO, the Thinker does NOT appear in PP 54; the simulacrum is acting on its own (hence the lame robbery caper). Suggested removal. 
NW 3-BTS 


MADDICKS, ARTHUR "ARTIE" 
XF 10 
*PP 27 Im not seeing Artie in PP 27 . In XF 10 Angel tells Artie to run through the Morlock tunnel to the X-Factor complex and then confronts the Marauders. In Thor 374 Thor finds Artie hiding in the tunnel and accompanies him to find X-Factor. Although Power Pack are in the tunnel in between the two events they do not encounter Artie as best I can see. 
T 374 


MAGNETO/MAGNUS/"ERIC LENSHERR" 
UX 230 
*PP 40 Should be removed. Magneto does not appear in PP 40. Warlock does comment that Magneto has threatened to ground us forever! (7:2) but thats it. 
NM@ 4 


MARAUD [ZNRX] 
**PP 3 
**PP 4 
**PP 19 
PP 21 
. . . . 
PP 52 
**PP:HS 1 
PP:PP 1 


MASS MASTER II PROTOPLASM CONSTRUCT/"ALEX POWER" 
PP 57 
*PP 58 (1-7) entry split to accommodate new FB 
**PP 58 (15:3/2-15:4)-FB video footage of the beginnings of the confrontation with Nova. The press doesnt arrive on the scene until Jack is already battling Nova so this must be prior to that possibly a civilian home video 
**PP 58 (24:3)-FB further footage of the Pack racing into battle 
*PP 58 (8-24) 
PP 59 

. . . 

XCAL 29 
PP 62 
**PP:HS 1 


**MARSHALL, SIMON 
**PPTSS 64 (15:3-15:5)-FB Preparng the drugs to use on Tyrone and Tandy 
**C&D3 19 (11:4)-FB getting ready to inject 
**PP 7 (13:3)-FB has Tyrone bound and ready to receive injection 
**PPTSS 64 (16:3-16:4)-FB realizes kids dying, decides to close operations 
**PPTSS 64 


McCOURT, ALLISON 

FYI: Alison (with only one l) is how the name is spelled in the first appearance (PP 7). Her next appearance (PP 14) has both one l and 2 l occurrences. From PP 18 through PP 39 (8 issues) only Allison, the two l spelling is shown. Then the last three issues (PP 45, PP 60 and PP 62) are back to Alison, with one l. 

**PP 7 
PP 14 

. . . 

PP 30 
*PP 34-BTS suggested removal. Alex says "I'm going over to Allison's house to study hardly actions creating impact on the story. (3:2) 
PP 39 

. . . 

PP 60 
**PP 62 


MIKHLO 
Q 6 
*PP 62-FB Mikhlo does not appear in the flashback (9:3), only the Red Ghost 
PP 61 
PP 62 


MOLECULA/JULIE POWER 
PP 52 
*PP 53 Should be PP 53-FB. Most of PP 53 is in flashback as told by Typhoid Mary to Dr Doom. 
PP 54 


MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS 
PP 58 
**PP 58-FB (24:4) 
PP 59 


NOVA II/FRANKIE RAYE 
*PP 58 (1-7) entry split to accommodate new FB 
**PP 58 (15:3/2)-FB Video footage of the beginnings of the confrontation with Power Pack. The press doesnt arrive on the scene until Jack is already battling Nova so this must be prior to that possibly a civilian home video 
*PP 58 (8-24) 


**NUMINUS 
**PP 51 
**PP 52 


PEATOR 
Q 6 
*PP 62-FB Peator does not appear in the flashback (9:3), only the Red Ghost 
PP 61 
PP 62 


POWER, DR. JIM 
PP 5 
**PP 6 
PP 7 

. . . 

PP 28 
*PP 30-BTS Jack states Mom and dad'll be home from work in a half hour. (10:2) Granted, the kids have to hurry because of this and thus the parents soon return might be said to have an impact on the story, but I think thats stretching the meaning of the BTS. (ditto for Margaret Power) 
PP 31 

. . . 

PP 52 
*PP 53 Should be PP 53-FB. Most of PP 53 is in flashback as told by Typhoid Mary to Dr Doom. 
PP 54 

. . . 

In PP 52 the pack defeated Maraud, and the Kymellians moved from their artificial world to a new planet and then the pack returned to earth. The Kymellian Technocrat, kidnapped the Power adults and replaced them with artificial duplicates in order to extract the matter/anti-matter formula from Dr. Power's mind. When Alex began to suspect the switch he was also replaced. 
The listing for MASS MASTER II PROTOPLASM CONSTRUCT/"ALEX POWER" begins with PP 56. The parents were obviously replaced before Alex was, so at the very least, all listings for Jim and Margaret Power between PP 56 and PP 62 inclusive are the Protoplasm constructs and need to be removed from the originals listings. 
{ I personally have the parents ,and Alex, being Pseudoplasm constructs from PP 53 on. At http://www.marvel.com/universe/Power_Pack, the entry appears to give events of the Packs history in chronological order; it lists the replacement of the parents AND the replacement of Alex before the pack fights Typhoid Mary (PP 53) and Mysterio (PP 55). However the MCP appears to already decided on PP 55 as the start point, at least for the Alex construct.} 


PP 55 
*PP 56 s/b deleted. Shifted to POWER, DR. JIM PROTOPLASM CONSTRUCT 
*PP 57 ditto 
*PP 58 ditto 
*PP 59 ditto 
*FF@ 23 ditto 
*PP 59 ditto 
*PP 60 ditto 
*PP 61 ditto 
*PP 62 ditto 
*M/SH3 6/2 ditto 
*XCAL 29-FB ditto 
*XCAL 29 ditto 
*PP 62 ditto 
**PP:HS 1 
**PP:HS 1/2 
**PP:HS 1/3 
NW 55 


**POWER, DR. JIM PROTOPLASM CONSTRUCT 
*PP 56 moved from Dr Jim Power listing 
*PP 57 ditto 
*PP 58 ditto 
*PP 59 ditto 
*FF@ 23 ditto 
*PP 59 dito 
*PP 60 ditto 
*PP 61 ditto 
*PP 62 ditto 
*M/SH3 6/2 ditto 
*XCAL 29-FB ditto 
*XCAL 29 ditto 
*PP 62 ditto 
**PP:HS 1 


POWER, MARGARET 
PP 5 
**PP 6 
PP 7 

. . . 

PP 20 
*PP 23-BTS Another questionable BTS. Thinking hes talking to the kids after they failed to show at the hospital, Jim says,  your mom was real disappointed (4:2). Later Jim Power tells police their mothers in the hospital (10:1). This is a simple statement of whereabouts, not a BTS. The pack have been captured by Snarks and fight to get free. Their mothers hospitalization has no impact on the story. 
PP 25 
PP 26 
PP 27 
PP 28 
*PP 30-BTS Jack states Mom and dad'll be home from work in a half hour. (10:2) Granted, the kids have to hurry because of this and thus the parents soon return might be said to have an impact on the story, but I think thats stretching the meaning of the BTS. (ditto for Jim Power) 
PP 31 

. . . 

FF 337 
PP 55 
*PP 56 s/b deleted. Shifted to POWER, MARGARET PROTOPLASM CONSTRUCT 
*PP 57 Ditto 
*PP 58 Ditto 
*PP 59 Ditto 
*PP 60 Ditto 
*PP 61 Ditto 
*PP 62 Ditto 
*XCAL 29-FB Ditto 
*XCAL 29 Ditto 
*PP 62-BTS Ditto 
**PP:HS 1 
**PP:HS 1/2 
**PP:HS 1/3 
NW 65 


**POWER, MARGARET PROTOPLASM CONSTRUCT 
*PP 56 moved from Margaret Power listing 
*PP 57 ditto 
*PP 58 ditto 
*PP 59 ditto 
*PP 60 ditto 
*PP 61 ditto 
*PP 62 ditto 
*XCAL 29-FB ditto 
*XCAL 29 ditto 
*PP 62-BTS ditto 
**PP:HS 1 


*RAZOR/ s/b deleted. This is the same character as RAZOR CUT 
*CAGE 11 


RAZOR CUT/ 
PP 31 
PP 32 
CAGE 5 
*CAGE 11 moved from RAZOR 


**RIVAL, JOHN 
**PP 7 
**PP 14 
**PP 22 
**PP 28 
**PP 29 
**PP 30 
**PP 32 


RIVAL, RAPHAEL DOMINGUEZ RIP 
**PP 30 
**PP 31 


SNAKE-EYES 
M/TU@ 7 
PP 9 
**PP 10 
**PP 23 


**SOBAK [ZNRX] 
**PP:PP 1 
**PP:PP 2 
**PP:PP 3 
**PP:PP 4 


SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
M/TU 114 
*{PPTSS 64} (14:18:1) entry split to accommodate new FB 
**PP 7-FB (13:4) Shows Spider-Man, assisting Cloak & Dagger and attacking thugs before Dagger tries to stop him from interfering. 
*PPTSS 64 (18:2-21:8) 


TARBABY 
UX 195 
*PP 19-BTS Im not seeing any reason for this BTS. PP 19 Is about Katie attending a Thanksgiving parade and about her inviting super-friends to a Thanksgiving dinner. Erg meets Katie and tell her that Annalee and Leech will attend but that the rest of us drain dwellers have made other plans. Later we see Annalee and Leech, then Ape in the alley, but no reference to or indication of anyone else. Im sure Tarbaby was around somewhere but does that warrant a BTS?. (see also Beautiful Dreamer above) 
XF 10 


**TEAMLEADER/YDRAI [KYMELLIAN] 
**PP 50 
**PP 51 
**PP 52 


**THUNDERHOOF/ENBE [KYMELLIAN] 
**PP 50 
**PP 51 
**PP 52 


TORO/TOM RAYMOND 
PP 59 
*PP 60 should be removed. Toro (aka Raymond) does NOT appear in PP 60 
PP 61 


TYPHOID MARY/MARY MEZINIS/"MARY WALKER"/"LYLA"/"BLOODY MARY"/"INNOCENT MARY" 
M/CP 129/2-FB 
**PP 53-FB-FB (6:2-6:5) Tough call if these scenes of Mary and her father are real history or Typhoid fakery. Earlier Typhoid states : I let the goody-goody Mary side of me take control for a while. And it was the Mary persona that talked to Alex about her childhood. Later Mary thinks how wonderful it is to have someone to confide in. As Mary is not the sociopath that the Typhoid persona is, and in light of no reason not to, I accept the FB at face value. 
TYPHOID 4-FB 

. . . 

C&D3 9-FB 
**PP 53-FB 
PP 53 
CA 373 


**WHITEMANE, AELFYRE WHITEY 
**PP 1-FB (20:2) 
**PP 1 


**WHITEMANE, BYREL [KYMELLIAN] 
*PP 4 moved from BYREL chronology 
*PP 43 ditto 
**PP 48 NEW 
**PP 49 NEW 
*PP 50 moved from listing under BYREL 
*PP 51 ditto 
**PP 52 NEW 
*PP 53 s/b removed. Byrel does not appear in PP 53; was moved from listing under BYREL 
*PP:PP 3 moved from listing under BYREL 


**WHITEMANE, KOFI [KYMELLIAN] 
*PP 16 moved from KOFI [KYMELLIAN] chronology 
*SWII 6 ditto 
*PP 18 ditto 
*PP 19 ditto 
*PP 22 ditto 
*PP 23 ditto 
*PP 24 ditto 
*PP 25 ditto 
*PP 26 ditto 
*PP 28 ditto 
*PP 43 ditto 
**PP 48 NEW 
*PP 49 ditto 
*PP 50 ditto 
*PP 51 ditto 
*PP 52 ditto 
**PP:HS 1 NEW 
*PP:PP 1 
*PP:PP 2 
*PP:PP 3 
*PP:PP 4 



**WHITEMANE, YRIK [KYMELLIAN] 
**PP 16-FB (3:2/2) recorded video message 
**PP 23 
**PP 24 
**PP 25 
**PP 26 
**PP 28 
**PP 43 
**PP 48 
**PP 49 
**PP 50 
**PP 51 
**PP 52 
**PP:HS 1 
*PP:PP 1 moved from listing under YRIK 
*PP:PP 3 ditto 
*PP:PP 4 ditto 


*YRIK this whole entry should be moved to WHITEMANE, YRIK [KYMELLIAN] <see above> 
*PP:PP 1 
*PP:PP 3 
*PP:PP 4

Last edited by Arthur on Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total. 

			*	*	*

Nov 22, 2007 10:32 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
FINEBERG, LAWRENCE LARRY
HORWITZ, MOSES MOE
<<<

Hah, I never noticed that before. Is there a Curly? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 06, 2007 5:37 pm 
By PaxHouse

Yee-up.....and "Curly", along with "Shemp" both appear within POWER PACK #46 {FYI, this Issue has the appearance of both DAKOTA NORTH & FRANK CASTLE aka THE PUNISHER}.... 

ALSO, since Katie evetually became Energizer {again} within the PP:HS; her appearance {As Counterweight II} within the SPEEDBALL BU Story in NEW WARRIORS Annual #1 should be place before PP #60; since she had her hair in ponytails within the Speedball Tale, but in PP #60 has gotten her hair cut......

PaxHouse.

			*	*	*

Dec 20, 2007 2:24 pm 
By Selaboc

Yep, that would be 
**HORWITZ, JEROME 

and Shemp would be 
**HORWITZ, SAMUEL

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Subject: The new calendar is up!!

Apr 22, 2007 6:23 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks to Russ for posting the new, updated Marvel Calendar, accessible by clicking on the link on the bottom of the forum page.

If you're curious about how one fan has organized, say, the events of the Civil War, check it out!!

There are editorial changes from the last edition in each segment, but the majority of them are from July Year 22 onward. After extensive re-thinking and re-tooling as each major story arc came and went, I ended up collapsing events into a more condensed time frame. So while there's LOTS more content than there was in the last edition, I didn't actually add much calendar.

Browse through and let me know if you have questions, comments, corrections ('cause you know I screwed something up  ).

Again, thanks to all who've helped with analyses and forum discussions.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Apr 22, 2007 6:37 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Re: Ant-Man. 

You've got Wolverine's deprogramming beginning before his arrival on the Helicarrier to begin deprogramming (that was something I clarified downthread (point 1) rather in my original analysis post, but you haven't changed it). 

[And, in a formatting issue, the font size is all over the place with stuff going big/small at seeming random..] 

Oh, and in the "AMAZING FANTASY v2 #11 - FB (1p2)" entry, 'Tony' should be 'Troy'. 

And on Nova v4 #1, "As Nova responds to a stellar storm disaster, he tries to take a shortcut through space and ends up crash landing on earth." Conflating stuff. Worldmind pulls him out of the disasterous warp and they crash-land somerandomplace. As a result, Nova finally takes the hint that he needs to slow down, and Worldmind prods him to go home. Half an hour later, awooga-awooga on the Helicarrier.

			*	*	*

Apr 23, 2007 6:02 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
You've got Wolverine's deprogramming beginning before his arrival on the Helicarrier to begin deprogramming (that was something I clarified downthread (point 1) rather in my original analysis post, but you haven't changed it). 
<<<

Somebody, would you do me a favor? Would you post a corrected sequence of calendar entries so I can be sure to get this right? Thanks.


Someody wrote:
>>>
And, in a formatting issue, the font size is all over the place with stuff going big/small at seeming random
<<<

Hmm. I'll have to check on this. My copy of the HTML files (and the word processing documents from which they were made) look fine, so maybe there are some hidden codes somewhere that need to be eliminated.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Oh, and in the "AMAZING FANTASY v2 #11 - FB (1p2)" entry, 'Tony' should be 'Troy'. 
<<<

Are we sure that wasn't Stark? That guy gets around...  Thanks.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
And on Nova v4 #1, "As Nova responds to a stellar storm disaster, he tries to take a shortcut through space and ends up crash landing on earth." Conflating stuff. Worldmind pulls him out of the disasterous warp and they crash-land somerandomplace. As a result, Nova finally takes the hint that he needs to slow down, and Worldmind prods him to go home. Half an hour later, awooga-awooga on the Helicarrier.
<<<

Thanks for clarifying that.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Apr 23, 2007 9:04 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Someody wrote:
>>>
And, in a formatting issue, the font size is all over the place with stuff going big/small at seeming random
<<<

Hmm. I'll have to check on this. My copy of the HTML files (and the word processing documents from which they were made) look fine, so maybe there are some hidden codes somewhere that need to be eliminated.
<<<


No, it's there. I didn't make any changes in what you sent.

For instance, look closely at Wednesday, July 4, of Year 20. The first three citations of Deadpool are in the smaller typeface. The fourth one is larger. Here's the HTML of what you sent:

>>>
<P><SPAN STYLE="font-size: 9pt">DEADPOOL v3 #40<STRONG></STRONG></SPAN></P>

<P><SPAN STYLE="font-size: 9pt">The same day as DP3 40-FB. Wade goes on a mission to gain control of Zemo's old orbital platform.</SPAN></P>

<P><SPAN STYLE="font-family: Times New Roman">DEADPOOL v3 #41<BR>
The same day as DP3 40. Deadpool escapes Zemo's exploding base in his escape pod but runs into cloaked aliens who he beats
up. After, they ask for his help to liberate their leader Dirty Wolff from prison. On Earth, Titania (Copycat) asks the Constrictor
if there has been any word on Deadpool. A few hours later, Deadpool breaks into the asteroid prison through the sewage system
and frees Dirty Wolff, but during the escape they end up freeing the prisoners and a riot breaks out. <BR>
DEADPOOL v3 #42<BR></SPAN></P>
<<<

Note the style parameter for Deadpool 40 has an attribute of "font-size: 9 pt", while for issue 41, it has an attribute of "font-family: Times New Roman". 

Previous editions of the calendar have had this same quirk, and I've edited to clean it up, but to perform the edits in such a massive file (the calendar is about 3 megabytes) would have taken a couple of weeks. Since it's just a cosmetic thing, I didn't deem it important enough. If you disagree, Paul, I hope this can help you find what's causing the problem. 


watching: can't buy me love

			*	*	*

Apr 23, 2007 9:53 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

Paul, do you mind if I post a link to the Calender on the other comic book discussion website where I hang out? Some of the people I know over there might be interested in seeing how you broke down the timeline of the Civil War. 

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Apr 25, 2007 5:40 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I don't mind at all. 

BTW, I've been working on solving the problem of changing font sizes, which I find to be a bit distracting. I apologize for that.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Apr 25, 2007 11:02 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I took some time to see what Captain America's chronology would look like based on Paul's Calendar entries, starting roughly where Cap's current chronology ends.(I went back a little earlier to see where the Secret War FlashBacks would fit) I probably missed a few of his appearances, so if anyone notices something feel free to chime in. 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
 
ASM2 50 
CA4 1 
CA4 2 
CA4 3 
CA4 4 
CA4 5 
CA4 6 
DD2 65-FB 
CA4 7 
CA4 8 
CA4 9 
CA4 10 
CA4 11 
CA4 12 
CA4 13 
CA4 14 
CA4 15 
CA4 16 
CA4 21 
CA4 22 
CA4 23 
CA4 24 
CA4 25 
IM3 64 
A3 63 
W/CA 1 
W/CA 2 
W/CA 3 
W/CA 4 
A3 65 
A3 66 
A3 67 
A3 68 
A3 69 
A3 70 
A3 72 
A3 73 
A3 74 
A3 75 
A3 76 
IM3 75 
IM3 79 
SECWAR 2-FB 
CA4 26-FB 
CA4 26 
A/TB 1 (20-22)-FB 
SECWAR 2-FB 
SECWAR 5-FB-FB 
M/HS 2004 1 
ALIAS 24 
ALIAS 28 
S-H3 1 
CA4 27 
CA4 28 (1-19) 
A/TB 1 
A/TB 1 (15:6)-FB-BTS 
CA4 28 (20-22) 
RUN 17 
A/TB 2 
A/TB 3 
A/TB 4 
A/TB 5 
A/TB 6 
XX 46 
XS 21 
XS 22 
XS 25 
GLA 1-FB 
T2 80 
T2 81 
A3 77 
A3 78 
A3 79 
A3 81 
A3 82 
A3 83 
A3 84 
INV3 0 
SMU2 6-FB 
DD2 61 
RUN 18-FB 
M/KSM 2 
CA&F 1-FB 
CA&F 1-FB 
CA&F2 1 
CA&F2 2 
CA&F2 3 
CA&F2 4 
CA&F2 5 
CA&F2 6 
CA&F2 7 
CA&F2 8 
CA4 29 
A 500 
A 501 
A 502 
A 503 (1-30:5) 
XCAL 9-FB 
A 503 (30:6-31) 
CA4 30 
CA4 31 
CA4 32 
CA&F2 9 
CA&F2 10 
CA&F2 11 
CA&F2 12 
CA&F2 13 
CA&F2 14-FB 
CA&F2 14 
M/KSM 11 
M/KSM 12 
PPTSSM2 15 
PPTSSM2 16 
PPTSSM2 17 
PPTSSM2 18 
PPTSSM2 19 
PPTSSM2 20 
CA5 1-FB 
A: FINALE 1 
HERC 1-FB 
M/TU3 6 
CA5 1-FB 
FOUR 13 
CA5 1 
CA5 2 
CA5 3 
CA5 4 
CA5 5 
CA5 6 
CA5 8-FB 
CA5 8 
CA5 9-FB 
CA5 9 
CA5 11 
CA5 12 
CA5 13 
CA5 14 
INV3 7 
INV3 8 
INV3 9 
W3 23 
W3 25 
NX 13 
W3 25 
YA 1 
YA 2 
YA 3 
YA 4 
YA 6 
IM/CA: COW 1-FB 
SECWAR 3-FB 
SECWAR 3/2 
SECWAR 3 
SECWAR 4 
SECWAR 5-FB 
YA 7 
YA 8 
HERC 1 
A4 1 
A4 2 (1-18) 
SM: BO 1 (9) 
A4 2 (19/20:1-19/20:3) 
SM: BO 1 (10) 
A4 2 (19/20:4-22) 
A4 3 
A4 4 
A4 5 
A4 6 
A4 8-FB 
SM: BO 2 
SM: BO 5 
A4 7 
A4 8 
A4 9 
A4 10 
M/TU3 10 
M/TU3 20 
M/TU3 13 
HERC 4 
HERC 5 
YA 9 
YA 10 
YA 11 
YA 12 
ASM 519 
ASM 520 
ASM 521 
ASM 523 
ASM 524-FB 
M/KSM 13 
M/KSM 14 
M/KSM 18 
HoM 1 
HoM 5 
CA5 10 
HoM 8 
RUN2 9 
A4 11-FB 
A4 27-FB-FB 
A4 11 
A4 12 
A4 13 
A4 14 
A4 15-FB 
A4 15 
M/TU3 14 
NA: AAFES 1 
CW: CS 1/6 
W3 36 
W3 37 
W3 38 
W: OS 3 
W: OS 4 
W: OS 5 
CA5 16 
CA5 17 
CA: 65AS 1 
FNSM 1-FB 
M/KSM 19 
TB2 13-FB 
TB2 14-FB 
TB2 14-FB 
M/HS 2005 1/2 
A4 21-FB 
TP: RTTR 1 
NA: AAFES 3 
FNSM 3 
ASM 527 
M/KSM 22 
C&DP 24 
C&DP 25 (1-6) 
UJ2 3 
C&DP 25 (7-22) 
NA@ 1 
FFS 1 
IHM: WOR 1 
X 186 
M/TU3 22 
M/TU3 23 
M/TU3 24 
M/TU3 25 
A4 16 
A4 17 
A4 18 
A4 19 
A4 20 
THING2 8-FB 
THING2 8 
IM4 7 
IM4 8 
CA5 18 (1-18) 
CA5 19-FB 
CA5 18 (19-22) 
CA5 19 
CA5 20 
CA5 21 (1-17) 
CA5 21-FB 
CA5 21 (18-22) 
IM4 10-FB 
IM4 12 
NA: AAFES 4 
CW 1 (1-9) 
CW 1 (10:1)~W3 42 (11:2) 
CW 1 (10:2-12) 
ASM 532-FB 
CW 1 (13-23) 
CA5 23-FB-FB 
CW 1 (24-28) 
A4 21 (1:3)-FB 
CW 1 (29-31) 
A4 21 (1-20) 
CA5 22-FB 
A4 21 (21) 
S-H4 8 
BP4 17-BTS 
CW 2 (1-8) 
A4 22 (1-19) 
A4 22-FB 
A4 22 (20-22) 
MSM2 5 
MSM2 6-FB 
CW 2 (9-18:5) 
CW 3-FB 
CW 2 (18:6-22) 
CW: YA&R 1 
MK5 7 
MK5 8 
BP4 18 
CA5 22-FB 
CA5 22 
A4 23 
C&DP 30 
C&DP 31 
CW 3 (1-14:4) 
IM/CA: COW 1-FB 
CW 3 (14:5-16:2) 
ASM 534-FB 
CA5 23-FB 
CW 3 (16:3-19:3) 
A4 24-FB 
CW 3 (19:4-19:6) 
CA5 23-FB 
CW 3 (20) 
CW: FL 6 (6-7) 
CW 3 (21-22) 
CW: FL 6 (8) 
CW 4 (1-6) 
CW: FL 6 (9:1-9:2) 
CW 4 (7-19) 
CA5 23 
IM/CA: COW 1 
CW 4 (20-22) 
HFH 2 
HFH 3-FB 
HFH 3 
FF 539 (1-18) 
ASM 534 (1-22) 
FF 539 (19-23) 
ASM 534 (23) 
CW: FL 9 
CW 5 (1-16:1) 
PWJ2 1 
CW 5 (16:2-17) 
PWJ2 (1-9) 
CW 5 (18-22) 
CA5 24 
TB 107 
TB 108 
PWJ2 2 (10-15) 
CW: WC 1 
BP4 23 
BP4 24 
CW 6 (1-5) 
ASM 537 
CW 6 (6-9) 
CW 6 (10:1-10:2)~PWJ2 2 (19:1-19:4) 
PWJ2 2 (19:5-21) 
CW 6 (10:3-10:5) 
PWJ2 2 (22:1) 
CW 6 (11:1)~PUJ2 2 (22:2)~PWJ2 3 (2/3:1) 
PWJ2 3 (2/3:2-2/3:5) 
CW 6 (11:2)~PWJ2 3 (4:1) 
PWJ2 3 (4:2-5) 
CW 6 (12:1-12:3) 
PWJ2 3 (8:1-8:5) 
CW 6 (12:4-12:5)~PWJ2 3 (8:6) 
PWJ2 2 (22:3-22:4) 
CW 6 (13:1-13:3) 
CW 6 (13:4)~PWJ2 3 (10:2) 
PWJ2 3 (10:4-11) 
BP4 25 (1-4) 
CW 6 (14-22) 
CW 7 (1-3) 
MSM2 14-FB-FB 
CW 7 (4-12:1) 
ASM 538 (1-4) 
BP4 25 
CW 7 (12:2-13:1) 
ASM 538 (5) 
CW 7 (13:2-16) 
ASM 538 (6-8) 
CW 7 (17-29) 
CW: FL 11-FB 
CW 7-FB (24:5) 
CA: FL 11 (1-12) 
CA5 25 (5-15:4) 
CA5 25 (31:2-31:3)-FB 
CA5 25 (15:5-15:6) 
CA5 25 (31:4-31:5)-FB 
CA5 25 (16-32) 
CW: C 1-BTS 
A4 28-FB-BTS 
A4 29-FB-BTS 
FS: DOCA 1-BTS 
CW: FL 11 (14-15)-BTS 

Two things I noticed, one: 
... 
CA4 28 (1-19) 
A/TB 1 
A/TB 1 (15:6)-FB-BTS 
CA4 28 (20-22) 
RUN 17 
A/TB 2 
... 

Would it be possible to move entries so that CA4 28 (20-22) occured chronologically next for Cap after CA4 28 (1-19)? I realize that 'some weeks' pass between pages, and I'm not opposed to putting things in-between pages when we have to, but there doesn't seem to be a reason here. For some reason though, I don't mind that RUN 17 is between issues of A/TB... 

Two: 
... 
C&DP 24 
C&DP 25 (1-6) 
UJ2 3 
C&DP 25 (7-22) 
NA@ 1 
... 

In UJ2 3, Union Jack calls Cap at Avengers Tower. However, Cap is on Providence Island between those C&DP pages. UJ2 has a reference to CA5 18-21, so it should probably be moved to sometime after that, anyway. 

Concerning Wolverine: Origins: 
Wolverine's quest for his memories(or whatever the hell he's doing) starts in W3 36 on July 16, and goes through W: OS 11 on August 2. His next appearance is in the X-Men/Runaways one-shot on August 5. Doesn't quite seem to be the 'emergency' to stop Wolverine's quest... The problem is, it's too closely tied to the end of HoM, and to the end of Civil War. I don't think there is a placement for that series that will ever make me happy.    

I'm not suggesting a movement for it, I'm just commenting on it. And I wanted to use a bunch of emoticons. 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 26, 2007 8:33 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hey, Col. Good catch on that Cap appearance in UJ2 3. You're right; that can't happen while he's on Providence. UJ2 3 does have to occur on an occasion in which Spidey and Iron Man go to Washington. So I originally associated UJ2 3 with ASM 529-530. However, how about putting UJ2 3 the day after the night of M/TU 25 (3-21), in which Spidey is seen packing for a Washington trip with Stark? That would get UJ2 3 out of the C&DP time period. 

I didn't pick up on UJ2 3 having to occur after CA5 21. Moving UJ2 3 further down the calendar allows some space for me to move CA5 18-21 up to a spot before it, hopefully with no side effects. 

I can revise Cap's chronology thusly... 

... 
C&DP 25 
NA@ 1 
FFS 1 
CA5 18 (1-18) 
CA5 19-FB 
CA5 18 (19-22) 
CA5 19 
CA5 20 
CA5 21 (1-17) 
CA5 21-FB 
CA5 21 (18-22) 
IHM: WOR 1 
X 186 
M/TU3 22 
M/TU3 23 
M/TU3 24 
M/TU3 25 
UJ2 3 
A4 16 
... 

This might pose other problems, but knowing that my old placements were wrong, I'm changing this for the reformatted repost. 

Thanks, Col! 

--edit -- 
called "UJ2 3" "UJ3 2" one time in the original post

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Apr 26, 2007 9:22 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Looks good!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 30, 2007 1:55 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

I was going through the Calendar again looking at Nick Fury's appearances. This is quick and dirty, so again, I probably missed something: 

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
 
IM3 69 
SM&W 1-FB 
SM&W 3-FB 
SM&W 4-FB 
FF 504 
FF 505 
FF 506 
FF 507 
FF 508 
SECWAR 1 (8-18)-FB 
SECWAR 1 (19-23)-FB 
SECWAR 2 (1-8)-FB 
SECWAR 2 (9-13)-FB 
SECWAR 2 (14-19)-FB 
SECWAR 5-FB-FB 
C&DP 6 
UX 442 
DD2 61 
M/KSM 2 
DD2 64 
M/KSM 5-BTS 
ID 5 
CA&F3 4-BTS 
CA&F2 5 
A 503 
CA4 30 
CA4 31 
CA4 32 
BW4 3 
C&DP 8 
BW4 6 
C&DP 11 
C&DP 12 
BW5 1 
PPTSS2 15 
PPTSS2 16 
PPTSS2 17 
PPTSS2 18 
PPTSS2 19 
PPTSS2 20 
BW5 2 
BW5 3 
BW5 4 
BW5 6 
HERC 1-FB 
XU2 8 
A4 14 (9:5-11)-FB 
ASTONX3 3 
ASTONX3 5 
ASTONX3 6 
M/TU3 6 
CA5 2 
CA5 4 
CA5 5 
CA5 6 
CA5 8 
CA5 9-FB 
CA5 11 
CA5 12 
CA5 13 
W3 20 
W3 21 
W3 23 
W3 27 (1-16) 
IAM 2-FB 
W3 29 
W3 30 
W3 31 
NFHC 1 
AF2 10 
AF2 12 
IM: H 2 
A4 14 (15:2, 15:4)-FB 
SECWAR 1 
SECWAR 2 
SECWAR 3 (1-6:3) 
PULSE 6 (13:2)-FB 
SECWAR 3 (6:4-7) 
PULSE 6 (14)-FB 
SECWAR 3 (8-22) 
SECWAR 4 
SECWAR 5-FB 
A4 14 (16)-FB 
PULSE 9 
PUN7 13 
PUN7 14-FB 
PUN7 14 
PUN7 15 
PUN7 16 
PUN7 17 
PUN7 18 
A4 14 
CW: C 1-FB 
C&DP 24 
C&DP 25 
CA5 21-BTS 
NA: AAFES 4 
A4 21-BTS 
CW 2-BTS 
CW 3-BTS 
CA5 23 
WS: WK 1 
HFH2 2-BTS 
CA5 24 
CA5 25 

I may have just missed it, Paul, but Civil War: the Confession has a FlashBack where the underground Nick Fury gives Tony Stark the information on the Restration Act, as later seen in the Illuminati special. 

FURY, NICK LMDs 
SECWAR 5-FB 
M/TU3 13 
HERC 4 
HERC 5 
FOES 3 
NX: H 3 
NX: H 4 
FOES 6 
M/N: I 4 
SENTRY2 7 
FF 527 
IM: I 1-BTS 
H3 88 
H3 89-FB 
NA: I 1-FB 
H3 89-FB 
H3 90 
H3 91 
IM4 7 
IM4 8 
IM4 9 
IM4 9 
IM4 10 
IM4 11 
IM4 12 
A4 23 
CA5 23 
CA5 24 
S-H4 17 

That's a lot of Life Model Decoy appearances! 

Some are apparent in the story itself that the appearing Fury is an LMD, like in the Captain America issues, New Avengers 23, and She-Hulk 17. Others have been stated to be LMDs in other comics; the Illuminati special says that the Fury in Hulk 89-91 is an LMD. Others have been said by editorial to be an LMD, like in IM4 7-12. Others still must be LMDs because of events in other books, such as Hercules and Sentry. 

There's really no way to tell if any Fury LMD is appearing twice, there's most likely several Fury LMDs running around. So, would we lump all of these LMD appearances under one generic LMD listing, or would each one get a seperate listing?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 01, 2007 9:35 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
I may have just missed it, Paul, but Civil War: the Confession has a FlashBack where the underground Nick Fury gives Tony Stark the information on the Restration Act, as later seen in the Illuminati special. 
<<<

Good eye. I totally missed that FB. I placed it on August 14. I thought this might make sense after NA:I 1-FB (12-13), in which Hill notes to Stark that folks on Capitol Hill are looking to blame super-heroes for this kind of threat (Hulk)  a reference to the Superhuman Registration Act. This may be the first time Stark hears of the Act, and may follow up after this with the underground Nick Fury to get intel on it, as shown in CW:C 1-FB (8-9). Thanks!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

May 01, 2007 10:33 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Good eye.
<<<

Heh. 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
I thought this might make sense after NA:I 1-FB (12-13), in which Hill notes to Stark that folks on Capitol Hill are looking to blame super-heroes for this kind of threat (Hulk)  a reference to the Superhuman Registration Act. This may be the first time Stark hears of the Act, and may follow up after this with the underground Nick Fury to get intel on it, as shown in CW:C 1-FB (8-9).
<<<

I had originally read the scene as though Stark was surprised by the Act.(the 'I didn't see this coming' caption, and his surprised/concerned look in the last panel) But as a futurist, he shouldn't have been surprised by the Act, so scratch that. 

I'm now reading the scene that Stark is surprised by Fury just being there.(It may just be my reading of it, but it doesn't seem that Tony knew too much about it when Fury gave him that file) I'd suggest placing this on August 10, the night of the day that Hill mentions the Act to Stark. Even underground, Fury knows what's going on everywhere. Having heard that Stark now at least knows about the Act, he got the information to Tony.(as opposed to Stark contacting Fury) 

The only difference this would make in the Calendar's chronology is Fury would appear here before NA: AAFES 4 instead of after. 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Thanks!
<<<

I do what I can. 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 02, 2007 5:55 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
I'd suggest placing this on August 10, the night of the day that Hill mentions the Act to Stark. 
<<<

Roger that. Thanks again, Col!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

May 15, 2007 11:44 am 
By Lucifer

I noticed a small cut and paste error. 

NEW EXCALIBUR #4 (1-14) 
X-MEN: THE 198 #1 (15p8-23) 
X-MEN: THE 198 #2 
GENERATION M #1 (7p1) 

These appear on both July 3 and July 4. The second appears to be wrong. 

Otherwise I'm very impressed with this calander and I consider it a valuable resource. Thanks for the effort Paul (and everybody who contributed of course). 

Lucifer

			*	*	*

May 16, 2007 6:17 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for pointing out that error, Lucifer.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

May 20, 2007 10:15 am 
By dubj1979

Quick question. 
I was told that in Herc 1 there was scenes of the funerals for the fallen Avengers from disassembled. If so would there be that big of gap between A 503 and Herc 1 under Caps chrono? 

If this has been discussed can someone link it, I cant find it. 

Thanks.

			*	*	*

May 20, 2007 4:17 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

If I remember right, Avengers: Finale was said to be three months after Disassembled. I think the funeral shown in Hercules 1 was decided to coincide with Finale, so yeah, there would be a three-month gap between Avengers 503 & Hercules 1.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 20, 2007 4:51 pm 
By jephyork
Director

You're putting weight in a Bendis Temporal Reference?!? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jun 01, 2007 6:05 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I noticed an error in the calendar. I placed VENOM VS. CARNAGE after the first story arc in MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN, but it has to occur before. I'll work on moving VVC to an earlier spot.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jun 02, 2007 6:32 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

I hope the formatting problems have been solved now. 


watching: harry potter and the sorceror's stone

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

Jun 02, 2007 10:05 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Russ.  

Soon I will post the first "update" -- a list that keeps you all informed about what comics I've been adding, editing, and moving behind the scenes. The posted calendar is, of course, already out of date, but I hope that updates might be helpful between re-postings of the calendar.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jun 03, 2007 5:29 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Looking good. 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jul 16, 2007 7:50 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Another update about changes I've been making BTS... 

CHANGES THROUGH JULY 16, 2007 

Added (all pertinent segments and flashbacks): 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #540 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #541 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN: SWING SHIFT #1 
ANNIHILATION: HERALDS OF GALACTUS #1 
ANNIHILATION: HERALDS OF GALACTUS #2 
ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #21 
AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE #2 
AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE #3 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #27 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #28 
BLADE v3 #8 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #40 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #41 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #42 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #26 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #27 
CIVIL WAR: THE CONFESSION #1  FB (8p7-9) 
DEADPOOL/GLI SUMMER FUN SPECTACULAR #1 
FALLEN SON: THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN AMERICA #2 
FALLEN SON: THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN AMERICA #3 
FALLEN SON: THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN AMERICA #4 
FALLEN SON: THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN AMERICA #5 
FANTASTIC FOUR #536  FB 
FANTASTIC FOUR #545 
FANTASTIC FOUR #546 
FANTASTIC FOUR #547 
FRANKLIN RICHARDS: MARCH MADNESS! #1 
FRANKLIN RICHARDS: MARCH MADNESS! #1/2 
FRANKLIN RICHARDS: MARCH MADNESS! #1/3 
FRANKLIN RICHARDS: MARCH MADNESS! #1/4 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #20 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL #1 
GHOST RIDER v5 #8 
GHOST RIDER v5 #9 
GHOST RIDER v5 #10 
GHOST RIDER v5 #11 
GHOST RIDER v5 #12 
HEROES FOR HIRE v2 #9 
HEROES FOR HIRE v2 #10 
HEROES FOR HIRE v2 #11 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #106 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #107 
IRON MAN v3 #17 
IRON MAN v3 #18 
IRON MAN v3 #19 
IRON MAN: HYPERVELOCITY #5 
IRON MAN: HYPERVELOCITY #6 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #7 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #8 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #9 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #10 
LEGION OF MONSTERS: MAN-THING #1 
LEGION OF MONSTERS: MAN-THING #1/2 
LEGION OF MONSTERS: WEREWOLF BY NIGHT #1 
LONERS #2 
LONERS #3 
LONERS #4 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #3 
MOON KNIGHT v5 #10 
MOON KNIGHT v5 #11 
MS. MARVEL v2 #15 
MS. MARVEL v2 #16 
MS. MARVEL v2 #17 
MYSTIC ARCANNA #1 
NEW AVENGERS #30 
NEW AVENGERS #31 
NEW AVENGERS #32 
NEW EXCALIBUR #19 
NEW EXCALIBUR #20 
NEW EXCALIBUR #21 
NEW WARRIORS v4 #1 
NEW WARRIORS v4 #2 
NEW X-MEN v2 #37 
NEW X-MEN v2 #38 
NEW X-MEN v2 #39 
NICK FURY'S HOWLING COMMANDOS #3 
NICK FURY'S HOWLING COMMANDOS #4 
NICK FURY'S HOWLING COMMANDOS #5 
NICK FURY'S HOWLING COMMANDOS #6 
NOVA v4 #2 
NOVA v4 #3 
OMEGA FLIGHT #2 
OMEGA FLIGHT #3 
PUNISHER PRESENTS: BARRACUDA #1 
PUNISHER PRESENTS: BARRACUDA #2 
PUNISHER PRESENTS: BARRACUDA #3 
PUNISHER PRESENTS: BARRACUDA #4 
PUNISHER PRESENTS: BARRACUDA #5 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #7 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #8 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #9 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN v2 #37 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN v2 #38 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL #1 
SHE-HULK v4 #18 
SHE-HULK v4 #19 
SILENT WAR #3  FB  FF 
SILENT WAR #4 
SILENT WAR #5 
SILENT WAR #6 
SPIDER-MAN AND THE FANTASTIC FOUR #2 
SPIDER-MAN AND THE FANTASTIC FOUR #3 
SPIDER-MAN FAMILY v2 #2 
SUB-MARINER v2 #1 
SUB-MARINER v2 #2 
THOR v3 #1 
THUNDERBOLTS #114 
THUNDERBOLTS #115 
UNCANNY X-MEN #486 
UNCANNY X-MEN #487 
UNCANNY X-MEN #488 
UNCANNY X-MEN #488/2 
WOLVERINE: ORIGINS #12 
WOLVERINE: ORIGINS #13 
WOLVERINE: ORIGINS #14 
WOLVERINE: ORIGINS #15 
WOLVERINE: SAUDADE 
WONDER MAN v3 #5  FB 
WORLD WAR HULK #1 
WORLD WAR HULK: FRONT LINE #1 
WORLD WAR HULK: GAMMA CORPS #1 
WORLD WAR HULK PROLOGUE: WORLD BREAKER #1 
WORLD WAR HULK: X-MEN #1 
X-FACTOR v3 #19 
X-FACTOR v3 #20 
X-FACTOR v3 #21 
X-FACTOR v3 #21/2 
X-MEN v2 #199 
X-MEN v2 #200 
X-MEN v2 #200/2 
X-MEN: ENDANGERED SPECIES #1 
X-MEN: FIRST CLASS SPECIAL #1/5 

Edited: 
ALIAS #28 
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #529 
ANNIHILATION #1 (1-12) 
ANNIHILATION: PROLOGUE #1 (2-8) 
ASTONISHING X-MEN v3 #1 (19-24) 
AVENGERS #500 (1-8) 
AVENGERS v3 #65 
AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE #1 (4-9p2) 
AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE #1 (9p3-23) 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #18 
BLADE v3 #5  FB (21-22) 
BLADE v3 #5 (13-15) 
BLADE v3 #5 (17-20) 
BLADE v3 #8 (21-22) 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #34 
CABLE & DEADPOOL #36  FB 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #14 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #23 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #25 (5-15p4) 
CAPTAIN AMERICA v5 #25 (16-32) 
CAPTAIN MARVEL v6 #24 
CIVIL WAR #1 (1-7p1) 
CIVIL WAR #4 (19p4-20) 
CIVIL WAR #5 (8) 
CIVIL WAR #7  FB (23p2) 
CIVIL WAR #7  FB (24p2) 
CIVIL WAR #7  FB (25p2) 
CIVIL WAR #7 (17-22p3) 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (10p2) 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (25p1) 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (45p2) 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (56p2) 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #10 (9-14) 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #11 (14p4-15p3) 
CIVIL WAR: FRONT LINE #11 (15p4-24) 
CIVIL WAR: THE CONFESSION #1 
CIVIL WAR: THE INITIATIVE #1  FB (3-10) 
CIVIL WAR: WAR CRIMES #1 (3-14) 
CIVIL WAR: WAR CRIMES #1 (15-18) 
CIVIL WAR: WAR CRIMES #1 (25-30) 
DAREDEVIL v2 #76 
FALLEN SON: THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN AMERICA #1 
FANTASTIC FOUR #513 
FANTASTIC FOUR #516 
FANTASTIC FOUR #536 
FANTASTIC FOUR #538 (18-22) 
FANTASTIC FOUR #539 (1-3p3) 
FANTASTIC FOUR #544  FB 
FOUR #30 
FRANKLIN RICHARDS: HAPPY FRANKSGIVING! #1 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #15 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #21 
HEROES FOR HIRE v2 #9 (4-22) 
HOUSE OF M: THE DAY AFTER #1 (3-31) 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #92 (1p4-1p6) 
IRON MAN v4 #14 (1-10p1) 
IRON MAN v4 #15  FB (13p3-15p1) 
IRREDEEMABLE ANT-MAN #5 
LONERS #1 
MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #1 (1-9) 
MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #6 (4-23)' 
MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #7 (4p2-21) 
MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #8 (1-16p4) 
MARVEL KNIGHTS SPIDER-MAN #9 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #1 
MIGHTY AVENGERS #2 
MS. MARVEL v2 #13  FB (17p2-17p4) 
NEW AVENGERS #1 (1-8p1) 
NEW AVENGERS #20 
NEW AVENGERS #26  FB 
NEW AVENGERS #27 (6-16p3) 
NEW AVENGERS #27 (16p4-23) 
NEW AVENGERS #28  FB 
NEW EXCALIBUR #16 (11-23) 
NEW THUNDERBOLTS #18 
NEW X-MEN #126 
NEW X-MEN v2 #22 (6-21) 
NEW X-MEN v2 #36 (3-23) 
NEW X-MEN v2 #36 (24) 
NICK FURY'S HOWLING COMMANDOS #1 
OMEGA FLIGHT #1 (3-22) 
PETER PARKER, SPIDER-MAN v2 #37-FB (4p3-16) 
PETER PARKER, SPIDER-MAN v2 #37 (17-22) 
PUNISHER v7 #36 (1-21) 
PUNISHER v7 #37 (1-13) 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #1 (1-9p3) 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #1 (28p3-31) 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #4 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #6  FB (22p3) 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN v2 #33 (15-22) 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN v2 #34 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN v2 #35 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN v2 #36 (5-14) 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN v2 #36 (15-23) 
SENSATIONAL SPIDER-MAN v2 #37 (20-21) 
SHE-HULK v4 #1 
SHE-HULK v4 #15 
SHE-HULK v4 #16 
SHE-HULK v4 #17 
SILENT WAR #3 
SON OF M #6 (1-19) 
SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN v3 #1 (4-24) 
SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN v3 #4 (6-23) 
SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN v3 #19 
SPIDER-MAN AND THE FANTASTIC FOUR #1 
SPIDER-MAN: LIFELINE #1 
SPIDER-MAN'S TANGLED WEB #10 
SPIDER-MAN'S TANGLED WEB #13 
SPIDER-MAN'S TANGLED WEB #16 (10-15) 
SPIDER-MAN UNLIMITED v2 #1/2 
THOR v2 #85 (12p3-24) 
THUNDERBOLTS #104 (1-19) 
THUNDERBOLTS #107 
THUNDERBOLTS #108 
WINTER SOLDIER: WINTER KILLS #1 
WOLVERINE v3 #23  FB (2p1, 2p3) 
WOLVERINE v3 #23 (1-15) 
X-MEN: THE 198 #1 (3-7) 
X-TREME X-MEN #46 (12-23) 

Moved (and likely edited): 
ANNIHILATION #1  FB 
ANNIHILATION #2  FB 
AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE #1 (4-9p2) 
AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE #1 (9p3-23) 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #26 (9-10) 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #26 (11-12) 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #26 (13-14p1) 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #26 (14p2) 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #26 (14p3-14p6) 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #26  FB (16-18) 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #26  FB (15p3, 15p5) 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #26 (15) 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #26 (19) 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #26 (20p1-20p2) 
BLACK PANTHER v4 #26 (20p3-22) 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (2-4) 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (27p1) 
CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT (52p2) 
FANTASTIC FOUR #514 
FANTASTIC FOUR #515 
FANTASTIC FOUR #516 
FANTASTIC FOUR #537  FB (5-6) 
FANTASTIC FOUR #537  FB (7-8p2) 
FANTASTIC FOUR #543 (1-26) 
FANTASTIC FOUR #543 (27-29p3) 
FANTASTIC FOUR #543 (29p4-30) 
FANTASTIC FOUR #544 (1-7) 
FANTASTIC FOUR #544 (8-9) 
FANTASTIC FOUR #544 (10-13) 
FANTASTIC FOUR #544 (14p1-14p4) 
FANTASTIC FOUR #544 (14p5-22) 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #17  FB 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #17 (1-10) 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #17 (11-21) 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #18 
FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN #19 
GHOST RIDER v5 #1 (1-20) 
GHOST RIDER v5 #1 (21) 
GHOST RIDER v5 #2 
GHOST RIDER v5 #3 
GHOST RIDER v5 #4 
GHOST RIDER v5 #4  FB (9-10p3) 
GHOST RIDER v5 #4  FB (11p2-11p5) 
GHOST RIDER v5 #5 (1-20) 
GHOST RIDER v5 #5 (21-22) 
GHOST RIDER v5 #6 
GHOST RIDER v5 #7 
HEROES FOR HIRE v2 #5 (1-17) 
HEROES FOR HIRE v2 #5 (18-19) 
HEROES FOR HIRE v2 #5 (20-22) 
HEROES FOR HIRE v2 #6 
HEROES FOR HIRE v2 #7 (1-11) 
HEROES FOR HIRE v2 #7 (12-22) 
HEROES FOR HIRE v2 #8 (1-10) 
HEROES FOR HIRE v2 #8 (11-12) 
HEROES FOR HIRE v2 #8 (13-16) 
HEROES FOR HIRE v2 #8 (17-22) 
INCREDIBLE HULK v3 #105 (19-21) 
NEW EXCALIBUR #18 
NICK FURY'S HOWLING COMMANDOS #2 
NOVA v4 #1 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #6  FB (22p3) 
PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL v2 #6 
SILENT WAR #1 (1-14) 
SILENT WAR #1 (15-22) 
SILENT WAR #2 (1-6) 
SILENT WAR #2 (7-22) 
SILENT WAR #3 
SON OF M #6 (20-22) 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1  FB (14p6) 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1  FB (4-5) 
STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1  FB (14p7) 
THOR v2 #80 (5-6) 
THOR v2 #80 (7-22) 
THOR v2 #81 
THOR v2 #82  FB 
THOR v2 #82 (1-5) 
THOR v2 #82 (6-9) 
THOR v2 #82 (10-13) 
THOR v2 #82 (14p1) 
THOR v2 #82 (14p2-15p1) 
THOR v2 #82 (15p2-23) 
THOR v2 #83 
THOR v2 #84 
THOR v2 #85 (1-9) 
THOR v2 #85 (10-11) 
THOR v2 #85 (12p1) ~ STORMBREAKER: THE SAGA OF BETA RAY BILL #1  FB (6p1-6p3) 
THOR v2 #85 (12p2) 
THOR v2 #85 (12p3-24) 
UNCANNY X-MEN #479 (4-22) 
UNCANNY X-MEN #481 
UNCANNY X-MEN #482 (1-11) 
UNCANNY X-MEN #482 (12-22) 
UNCANNY X-MEN #483 
UNCANNY X-MEN #484  FB (14) 
UNCANNY X-MEN #484  FB (5) 
UNCANNY X-MEN #484 
VENOM VS. CARNAGE #1 
VENOM VS. CARNAGE #2 (1-10) 
VENOM VS. CARNAGE #2 (11-13p2) 
VENOM VS. CARNAGE #2 (13p3-22) 
VENOM VS. CARNAGE #3 (1-7) 
VENOM VS. CARNAGE #3 (8-18) 
VENOM VS. CARNAGE #3 (19-23) 
VENOM VS. CARNAGE #4 (1-3) 
VENOM VS. CARNAGE #4 (4-22) 
WOLVERINE: ORIGINS #11 (17-22) 
WONDER MAN v3 #1  FB 
WONDER MAN v3 #2  FB (4-7) 
WONDER MAN v3 #2  FB (8-22) 
WONDER MAN v3 #3  FB 
WONDER MAN v3 #4  FB 
X-FACTOR v3 #14 
X-FACTOR v3 #15 
X-FACTOR v3 #16 
X-FACTOR v3 #17 
X-FACTOR v3 #18

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jul 16, 2007 11:20 pm 
By PopularLoser

Hey Paul, when do you think you'll make your next "re-posting" of the calendar?

[Insert Witty Remark Here]

			*	*	*

Jul 17, 2007 6:00 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Probably late in the year.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Aug 17, 2007 5:30 pm 
By Ork

About Marvel Boy #3: 

MARVEL BOY #3-FB (1-3) 
Enough time has passed since M/BOY 2 for Hexus to have become the Brand Hex corporation and started recruiting employees. 
It is one month before M/BOY 3 (4-19). 

MARVEL BOY #3 (4-19) 
It is one month after M/BOY 3-FB (1-3). 
Noh-Varr is told that Hexus has escaped the Marvel's Concept Dungeon. Noh-Varr battles Hexus and finds a way to defeat it. 

MARVEL BOY #3 (20-22) 
The morning after M/BOY 3 (4-19). 
Brand Hex went bankrupt. 

MARVEL BOY #4 
The same morning as M/BOY 3 (20-22).

			*	*	*

Aug 17, 2007 7:28 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Ork. This is really helpful. Missing an issue can make a big difference. I subdivided issue #3 and moved it, along with issues #4-6. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Aug 21, 2007 6:25 pm 
By ajbrown

The calendar is really, really impressive! Well done! 

Is it possible to easily draw out a single character's appearances? I would love an up-to-date chronology on Spider-Man past the MCP's current last issue appearance (Pulse #2 from quite a few years ago), and was wondering if I could easily get one from the calendar? 

Cheers! 
AJ

			*	*	*

Aug 22, 2007 10:16 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Not easily, I'm afraid. I've been meaning to include a list of characters with each segment, flashback, etc. to make that easier, but it starts making my brain hurt when I think about it. If I were to start, I'd have to figure out a "jumping on point" without feeling compelled to go back to July of Year 20 and retrofit appearances everywhere. I'm hoping that, to some degree, Russ is making use of the calendar, finding characters in each entry, and stringing character chronologies together. 

Of course, I'd welcome a Marvel Maniac with a big comic collection, lots of free time, and a wee bit of ana...um, attention to detail...to plug character listings into the Calendar. 

To answer your question about Spidey in particular, though...if you converted the Calendar to a word processing document and searched for "Spide," you could go through, ignoring Spider-Woman and "Spider-Man" in comic titles (but keeping an eye out for "Peter" in those entries), you'd have a pretty fair chronological listing. 

Thanks for the kind words, A.J.!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Aug 23, 2007 4:52 pm 
By SKleefeld
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
To answer your question about Spidey in particular, though...if you converted the Calendar to a word processing document and searched for "Spide," you could go through, ignoring Spider-Woman and "Spider-Man" in comic titles (but keeping an eye out for "Peter" in those entries), you'd have a pretty fair chronological listing.
<<<

I did something similar with one Paul's older versions of the calendar. I cut/paste the whole thing into Word and then did a find/replace on a number of character sets. (For Mr. Fantastic, for example, I would search on "Mr. Fantastic", "Reed Richards", "Reed" and "Richards." I think it caught a couple extraneous things, but it was easy to filter out the chaff than try to ensure I caught everything in manual process.) But the text I would replace would be exactly the same as the original, but with a highlighted background. Then, once I'd printed it out, I could easily scan through it to find certain characters.

			*	*	*

Oct 02, 2007 4:04 pm 
By Ork

According to the French comics, your pages for FF 543 would be wrong. Willie Lumpkin is interviewed in pages 17-18, shifting all other pages up to Tony Stark appearance. 

All the pages you have from 16 to 24, I have from 17 to 25. All other pages before and after are okay.

			*	*	*

Oct 02, 2007 8:36 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

You're right. Good catch, Ork! Thanks. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 17, 2007 11:43 am 
By Ork

Year 24, March 13 

It should be A:INIT #1 (9:3-23), not 9:2-23.

			*	*	*

Nov 17, 2007 1:04 pm 
By Ork

Year 22, April 10 

Nyx #3 (18-20) 

I count 4 pages (18-21) 

This moves Nyx #3 (21-23) to (22-24) 

Do you need the chronological order of frames in Nyx 3, 4 and 5 for that scene ?

			*	*	*

Nov 17, 2007 2:46 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Ork wrote: 
>>>
It should be A:INIT #1 (9:3-23), not 9:2-23.
<<<

That's right.


Ork wrote:
>>>
Do you need the chronological order of frames in Nyx 3, 4 and 5 for that scene ?
<<<

Yes, please! 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 17, 2007 8:25 pm 
By Ork

NYX #3 (18-19:3) 
The early morning after NYX 3 (13-17). X-23 meets a client at the hotel. 
NYX #4 - FB (19:1) 
NYX #3 (19:4) ~ NYX #4 - FB (19:2) 
NYX #3 (19:5) 
NYX #3 (19:6) ~ NYX #4 - FB (19:3) 
The client pulls a knife. 
NYX #3 (20-21) ~ NYX #4 - FB (19:4,19:6-20) 
X-23's client kills himself with the knife. (Nyx 4) 
Kiden has a dream where her father tells her to go to room 202 of the Hotel Brasil. Kiden notes down the address and races off to the hotel. Cameron hears the disturbance, wakes up, and sees the address written down. (Nyx 3) 
NYX #3 (22:1) ~ NYX #5 - FB (1:1) 
It is "eighteen hours" before NYX 5 (4-9). Kiden races to the hotel. 
NYX #3 (22:2) ~ NYX #5 - FB (1:2) 
Kiden crosses the path of Tanya, one of the prostitutes. 
NYX #3 (22:3) 
Kiden races to room 202. 
NYX #3 (22:4) ~ NYX #5 - FB (1:3) 
Kiden enters the room. 
NYX #3 (22:5) 
Cameron arrives at the hotel. 
NYX #3 (22:6) 
Kiden enters room 202. 
NYX #3 (22:7) ~ NYX #5 - FB (1:4) 
Tanya sees Cameron running in the stairs. 
NYX #3 (23:1-23:3) 
Kiden sees the body of the client on the floor. 
NYX #3 (23:4) ~ NYX #5 - FB (1:5) 
Cameron meets Kiden at the door. 
NYX #3 (23:5) ~ NYX #5 - FB (1:6) 
Cameron sees the body. 
NYX #3 (23:6-24) 
Kiden and Cameron see X-23 on the bed. X-23 has two claws extending from her left hand, and has apparently been using them to cut her own right arm, which is bleeding from claw marks. 
NYX #5 - FB (2-3) 
Tanya reports to Zebra Daddy that X-23 just shived a john. The pimp tells Tanya to follow X-23.

			*	*	*

Nov 19, 2007 7:09 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Ork. If a flashback shows a previously published scene exactly (no new info), then it is not included as a synchronous (~) listing. This may be the case with most of the ~s you list, with the exception of 
NYX #3 (20-21) ~ NYX #4 - FB (19:4,19:6-20) 
Here, there appears to be some new material in the FB in issue #4. Is that right? If so, how do panels in NYX 3 relate to new info in NYX 4-FB?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 14, 2007 9:37 am 
By Ork

Sorry for the late reply. 

Most of the synchronous listing I noted are for the same image in different book. Some, like NYX #3 (22:4) ~ NYX #5 - FB (1:3), are from different angles. 

The exception is NYX #3 (20-21) ~ NYX #4 - FB (19:4,19:6-20). 
Maybe we can put all the scene from Nyx 4 before the one in Nyx 3 if we suppose that the client kills himself before the message from Kiden's father.

			*	*	*

Dec 14, 2007 11:24 am 
By Ork

Runaway v2 #2 (1-10) should be divided. 

Year 23 
April 19 
RUNAWAYS v2 #2 - FB 
->RUNAWAYS v2 #2 - FB (5-10) 
April 20 
RUNAWAYS v2 #2 (1-10) 
->RUNAWAYS v2 #2 (1-4) 

In Runaways v2 #10, the flashback 24 hours ago runs three pages, not two. 
July 1 
RUNAWAYS v2 #10 - FB (1-2) 
->RUNAWAYS v2 #10 - FB (1-3)

			*	*	*

Dec 14, 2007 3:24 pm 
By Ork

Year 24, April 7 
NEW X-MEN v2 #34 
It is "not too long" after NX 34-FB. 

The flashback mentioned here must be pages 4-22, not pages 1-2 which is the only appearing in the calendar.

			*	*	*

Dec 16, 2007 4:12 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Ork wrote: 
Runaway v2 #2 (1-10) should be divided. 

Year 23 
April 19 
RUNAWAYS v2 #2 - FB 
->RUNAWAYS v2 #2 - FB (5-10) 
April 20 
RUNAWAYS v2 #2 (1-10) 
->RUNAWAYS v2 #2 (1-4) 


Ork, this may just be a misinterpretation of how I handle flashbacks. I believe the flashback on pages 5-10 was framed within a "present" frame of pages 1-10. As I recall, pages 5-10 show the footage of the Runaways that Excelsior is seeing as we see it. If pages 5-10 are totally separate from pages 1-4 -- an independent scene placed there by the writer -- please let me know. 

Thanks for your comments on the calendar. Lots of changes and updates are in the offing.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 16, 2007 5:12 pm 
By JD

Actually, you got the whole sequence wrong. 

The footage of the Runaways that Excelsior are watching is in pages 1-2. That's what "RUN2 2-FB" is. In my analysis at the time, I placed it "sometime before RUN2 1". 

"RUN2 2 pages 1-10" is indeed two separate scenes : 
- pages 1-4 show Excelsior. It concludes at dawn. 
- pages 5-10 show the Runaways, and continues directly from the previous issue It's still night on page 5. 

Ork seems to think that pages 5-10 are a flashback to before pages 1-4, but I'm not so sure. There's no paratextual clues, and both scenes could be argued to be more or less synchronous. 

I dunno, I don't see enough cause to put pages 5-10 as a flashback. It's a bit too much hair-splitting, isn't it ? 

(Now that I think about it, the whole support group stayed from 9:30 PM till dawn while Turbo & Phil Urich where doing their research on the Runaways ? WTF ?)

			*	*	*

Dec 16, 2007 9:54 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

OK, I'm obviously not quite understanding this. Ork or JD, how would you record and organize calendar entries (w/descriptions) for these 10 pages vis-a-vis the entries for RUN2 1 and RUN2 2-FB? Any help you can shed would be appreciated.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 21, 2007 10:41 am 
By Ork

JD wrote:
>>>
Ork seems to think that pages 5-10 are a flashback to before pages 1-4, but I'm not so sure. There's no paratextual clues, and both scenes could be argued to be more or less synchronous.
<<<

At first I thougt it was night but the darkness is due to them being underground. There is one temporal clue I had overlooked: Gert says they should bury Future Gert before the museum opens. The scene must be in the morning and can be placed chronologically after the previous scene (pages 1-4). 

Year 23 
April 20 
RUNAWAYS v2 #2 (1-4) 
The day after RUN2 1. The Young Avengers are mentioned, so this story occurs after YA 6 (1-15). Excelsior have another meeting at dawn and look at some footage of the Runaways in action. They decide to become super-heroes again to take the Runaways down. 

RUNAWAYS v2 #2 (5-10) 
The morning after RUN2 1. Nico uses a flashback spell to see the memories of the dead Future Gert, which confirm that Victor is to become very nasty indeed. The Runaways decide to go after Victor.

			*	*	*

Dec 21, 2007 4:53 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

OK. I think I have it. Split RUN2 2 (1-10) into two entries and move the second entry (5-10), along with RUN2 3-6, down a day. Thanks!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Subject: Daredevil's origin

Dec 16, 2007 06:32 pm 
By JD

Okay, I'm doing research for the "Battlin' Jack Murdock" mini, looking for stories set in Matt Murdock's childhood and college years. 

I've looked a bit at the MCP, and I'm surprised of how few of them there are : 
- DD 1, of course 
- DD:Yellow 1 
- DD 168 retraces his college relationship with Elektra 
- DD 209 features a random childhood friend 
- DD minus 1 
- Elektra minus 1 
- DD2 37 has a flashback to the Elektra relationship 
- UTSM '97/2 & ASMU 18, which I've not looked at yet 

That's it ? Does anyone know of any other stories set in this time period ?

			*	*	*

Dec 16, 2007 08:17 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I want to say that's all there is. I'm pretty sure...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 17, 2007 12:38 am 
By Mikhail

There was a Daredevil / Bullseye story where Matt re-remembered his father's brief career as a wrestler named "the Red Devil". I THINK it was the amnesia story from around DD #285-290, but I might be wrong.

			*	*	*

Dec 17, 2007 04:02 am 
By Enda80

There was a DD issue with Mr. Hyde around 1986 where one of the boys who bullied him as a youth later returns as an adult. I don't recall whether there were any new flashbacks. 

Also of note was an issue of Marvel Fanfare with a fb to a fire that took place when he was a boy.

			*	*	*

Dec 17, 2007 05:35 am 
By JD

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
There was a DD issue with Mr. Hyde around 1986 where one of the boys who bullied him as a youth later returns as an adult. I don't recall whether there were any new flashbacks. 
<<<

This would be DD 235, according to Hyde's chronology.
But, again ? Minus the villain, this is the exact same plot as DD 209.


>>>
Also of note was an issue of Marvel Fanfare with a fb to a fire that took place when he was a boy.
<<<

Wow, that'll be hard for me to track down. Could you narrow it down a bit ? There's at least five separate issues with stories featuring DD. 


And I now remember DD 53, a retelling of DD's origin illustrated by Gene Colan, which may have some new panels. Thank (your divinity of choice) for Essentials ! 

Anyway, thanks !

			*	*	*

Dec 17, 2007 08:47 am 
By Arthur
Director

That would be M/FAN 15/2

			*	*	*

Dec 17, 2007 09:23 am 
By JD

Thanks !

Dec 17, 2007 10:51 am 
By Enda80

Murdock also retold his origin to Ben Urich in a Miller issue that came out before Elektra debuted. It was after his battle with the Hulk. 

I'll have to check Olshevsky's index to DD (which I found a few years ago) for more retellings.

			*	*	*

Dec 17, 2007 01:08 pm 
By JD

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Murdock also retold his origin to Ben Urich in a Miller issue that came out before Elektra debuted. It was after his battle with the Hulk.
<<<

This would be around DD 163-164. Thanks ! 


>>>
I'll have to check Olshevsky's index to DD (which I found a few years ago) for more retellings. 
<<<

Thanks a bunch in advance !

			*	*	*

Dec 17, 2007 04:54 pm 
By Enda80

In of the retellings, I think the Roy Thomas one, it is stated that the events took place in 1944, but that is of course just a topical reference.

			*	*	*

Dec 17, 2007 07:12 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

JD wrote:
>>>
And I now remember DD 53, a retelling of DD's origin illustrated by Gene Colan, which may have some new panels.
<<<

Not really. The dialog is word-for-word from DD 1. It's just re-illustrated. 


watching: city confidential

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

Dec 18, 2007 01:23 am 
By Enda80

JD wrote:
>>>
Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Murdock also retold his origin to Ben Urich in a Miller issue that came out before Elektra debuted. It was after his battle with the Hulk.
<<<

This would be around DD 163-164. Thanks ! 


>>>
I'll have to check Olshevsky's index to DD (which I found a few years ago) for more retellings. 
<<<

Thanks a bunch in advance !
<<<

The retelling in 163-165 has variations with DD#1.

			*	*	*

Dec 18, 2007 02:33 am 
By JD

JD wrote:
>>>
Enda80 wrote:
>>>
There was a DD issue with Mr. Hyde around 1986 where one of the boys who bullied him as a youth later returns as an adult. I don't recall whether there were any new flashbacks. 
<<<

This would be DD 235, according to Hyde's chronology.
But, again ? Minus the villain, this is the exact same plot as DD 209.
<<<

And indeed, I've quickly checked DD 235, and there's no childhood bully in sight. You may have confused the plot with DD 209's.
On the other hand, there IS a quick flashback to DD's origin in DD 235, with maybe some new material (I don't recall whether we've actually seen the killer shoot Jack Murdock before ; not in DD 1 or DD 164, at least).



Enda80 wrote:
>>>
The retelling in 163-165 has variations with DD#1.
<<<

Indeed, the flashback in DD 164 looks much more elaborated than DD 1's version.


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Was there an Uncanny Origins issue?
<<<

Indeed there was, UO 13. I'll check it out.


Administrator wrote:
>>>
Not really. The dialog [in DD 53] is word-for-word from DD 1. It's just re-illustrated. 
<<<

Yes, I remember that. I'll just check it panel by panel to be completely sure there is no new information at all. 

Thanks a bunch to you all for your help. This will greatly help me in determining how the BJM mini fits. It appears that a lot of it is completely new, especially all the stuff about Matt's mother. We hadn't seen anything about her in that time period, had we ?

			*	*	*

Dec 18, 2007 04:16 pm 
By Enda80

Actually, in DD#235, he does encounter (in the modern day) one of the males who called him "Daredevil" derisively as a child. There is no flashback to past though. For some reason I always thought of him as the boy in Daisy Dukes who watched as one boy kneeled behind Matt while the other boy knocked him over. 


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
In of the retellings, I think the Roy Thomas one, it is stated that the events took place in 1944, but that is of course just a topical reference.
<<<

I think I made a mistake with this one. Daredevil#100 has a retelling which places the accident in 1958. For some reason, Olshevsky opted for 1950 (stating Matt was 8 when the accident happened) in his index's introduction, but of course the sliding timescale makes this alls somewhat irrelevant (but does confirm some of the reasoning below). 

This does remind me of a conundrum, though. There was once a What If issue where Matt was found by Tony Stark soon after the accident, and taken to Nick Fury, who was already running SHIELD. Well, a few issues later in the letters column, they admitted that the problem with this scenario was that Nick Fury did not take over SHIELD till the modern era, and Matt Murdock's boyhood was 15-20 years before the start of the modern era, the events of FF I#1; this is confirmed by Marvel Saga#1, which shows that the very day the FF took their flight, Matt had already met Foggy Nelson and they were studying law together. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/earthdaredevilshield.htm

Man Without Fear's sloppy status has been hashed out repeatedly. 

Daredevil Yellow of course comes to mind. This one established that Rocky Davis (the opponent from Jack's last round) was actually Crusher Creel before he became the Absorbing Man. (Incidentally, no, this is not an homage to Stallone's movies from 1976-2006; the character was called Rocky Davis in the original Daredevil origin story. Remember, Rocky Marciano was a well-known boxer from the 1950's, such that he inspired fictional boxers such as DC's Challengers of the Unknown member Rocky Davis and the Rocky in Forever People#1). When Creel first appeared in Journey Into Mystery, there was of course no indication that he was the same person as Rocky Davis. In any event, She-Hulk and the Handbooks reaffirmed that Creel was Jack's last opponent. 

Incidentally, DD I#164 establishes Jack's real name as "Johnathon Murdock" when he signs a contract; this is actually an odd spelling of the name, as the normal spelling would be Jonathon as in Jonathan Kent; the name John is not a nickname for Jonathon. Etymologically, Jonathan is not a variation of John, but a longer version of Nathan per wikipedia.

Last edited by Enda80 on 18 Dec 2007 04:34 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

			*	*	*

Dec 18, 2007 04:28 pm 
By JD

Mikhail wrote:
>>>
There was a Daredevil / Bullseye story where Matt re-remembered his father's brief career as a wrestler named "the Red Devil". I THINK it was the amnesia story from around DD #285-290, but I might be wrong.
<<<

Looked at that storyline, and I don't see it. There's a brief flashback in DD 289, but it's Jack's last fight, and it doesn't seem at first sight to have new information.
(That storyline also has flashbacks/dreams of DD's training by Stick, but that's much later, right ?)

And just for information :


JD wrote:
>>>
- UTSM '97/2 & ASMU 18, which I've not looked at yet
<<<

- ASMU 18 has a panel of Murdock defending Octopus at his first trial (between ASM 3 & ASM 11), so it's pretty irrelevant for my purposes.
- UTSM '97/2 is a Fred Hembeck backup, which explains that it's actually Peter Parker who accidentally came up with the "Daredevil" nickname. I didn't know that kind of strips could be considered canon, but there's nothing too outrageous beyond Doctors Blake & Strange sharing an office (and the former being Aunt May's doctor).


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Daredevil Yellow of course comes to mind. This one established that Rocky Davis (the opponent from Jack's last round) was actually Crusher Creel before he became the Absorbing Man.
<<<

What ? Seriously ? I've only read issue #1 yet (barely scanned it, actually), but this is an awful idea.


>>>
Etymologically, Jonathan is not a variation of John, but a longer version of Nathan per wikipedia.
<<<

And you know what's weird ? My first name's Jonathan. Fate really wants me to analyse this mini...

			*	*	*

Dec 18, 2007 07:30 pm 
By Enda80

In DD I#235, Stinky McQuade claims to have been the one who first mocked Murdock by calling him "Daredevil". So, he was one of the boys in those fbs. 

(McQuade is named after Blinky McQuade, an alternate identity of Richard Wentwoth, the Spider.) 

In DD I#191, Matt recalls how he battered one of his taunters, and his father then hit him. This scene was later copied for MWF. 

DD I#225 or so has a fb to his training with Stick.

			*	*	*

Dec 19, 2007 05:04 pm 
By Enda80

I found the relevant panels scanned in question. 

http://www.buzzcomics.net/showpost.php?p=691850&postcount=30

Curieusement, il se trouve au mme endroit au il a arrt l'assassin de son pre des annes auparavant; l o il vraiment devenu Daredevil. Cela le conforte dans son choix de vie mme s'il n'oublie pas que Karen l'attend chez eux.

(Curiously, he finds himself in the same place where he caught the man who killed his father.)

http://sim.theury.free.fr/COMICS/Daredevil/DD235/DD23506.jpg

			*	*	*

Dec 19, 2007 06:30 pm 
By Enda80

Some notes from Olshevsky's index 

The policeman from DD I#1 is named Bert Rose in DD I#131. 

Slade, Porky, Sam and Stymie are amongst the Fixer's thugs per DD I#1 and 164. 

According to his intro, Fogwell's Gym, where Jack Murdock frequented, was run by "Pop" Fenton. This was established in DD I#69 and 119. 

An origin retelling occurs in DD I#43.

			*	*	*

Dec 22, 2007 01:18 pm 
By Enda80

Another bully from his youth

Nelson et Murdock se charge de la dfense Stewart 'Stymie' Schmidt et lors de leur rencontre  la prison, Stymie reconnat Matt "Daredevil"Murdock. Stymie tait l'un des gamins qui s'amusait  humilier Matt quand ils taient gamins.

http://sim.theury.free.fr/COMICS/Daredevil/DD203/dd20302.jpg
from DD I#203

Symie calls Murdock a momma's boy, but Matt grew up thinking his mother was dead.

http://sim.theury.free.fr/COMICS/Daredevil/DD203/dd20305.jpg

Symie was another one of the bullies. 

http://www.buzzcomics.net/showthread.php?t=14906&page=2

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Subject: CA@ 10 adjustments

Dec 23, 2007 04:44 pm 
By Arthur
Director

CA@ 10 has some entry problems. 

There is a two page Origin of Captain America story at the beginning of the mag which reprints some of the flashbacks from CA 255. (no new material). 

The problem arises from the question of story numbering.... should it count as the first story? 

Currently, the MCP lists the next story (the main story) as the first, and the following (Bushmaster origin) as the second (CA@ 10/2), (i.e. not counting the first 2-pager). 

CA@ 10/3 showcases Sidewinder. Sidewinder and a reporter, Katy Fong, are listed in it in the MCP. Captain America and Cobra are also in it, but they are listed as CA@ 10/4 (which would only be true if the first two-pager was counted) 
CA@ 10/4 stars Nomad (Jack Monroe) and baby Bucky. Their listings show CA@ 10/5 (i.e, the correct story number IF the first two pager was counted. 

So... if the first two-pager is NOT counted. the following corrections need to be made: 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN GRANT ROGERS 
NF3 24 
*CA@ 10/4 should read CA@ 10/3 
ASPOT 40 

COBRA/KLAUS VORHEES 
CA 385/2-BTS 
*CA@ 10/4 should read CA@ 10/3 
FF 358 

BUCKY VI/JULIA WINTER 
NOM 4 
*CA@ 10/5 should read CA@ 10/4 
NOM2 1 

NOMAD III/JACK MONROE 
NOM 4 
*CA@ 10/5 should read CA@ 10/4 
NOM2 1 

If the first two-pager IS counted, these are the adjustments: 

BARON STRUCKER/WOLFGANG VON STRUCKER 
PUN@ 4 
*CA@ 10 should read CA@ 10/2 
DD 292-BTS 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN GRANT ROGERS 
M/CP 81/2 
*CA@ 10 should read CA@ 10/2 
DAMCON3 4 

DAKINI 
DD@ 7 
PUN@ 4 
*CA@ 10 should read CA@ 10/2 

FISHMAN, DR. JONATHAN 
*CA@ 10 should read CA@ 10/2 

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH CA@ 10 
PUN@ 4 
*CA@ 10 should read CA@ 10/2 
DD 298 

ARGOSY, HERVE 
*CA@ 10/2-FB should read CA@ 10/3-FB 

BUSHMASTER/JOHN MCIVER 
*CA@ 10/2-FB should read CA@ 10/3-FB 
{IF 15} 

BUSHMASTER II/QUINCY MCIVER 
*CA@ 10/2-FB should read CA@ 10/3-FB 
{CA 310} 
CA 311 
. . . 
CA 381 
CA 382 
*CA@ 10/2 should read CA@ 10/3 

SIDEWINDER/SETH VOELKER 
*CA@ 10/2-FB should read CA@ 10/3-FB 
{M/TIO 64} 
. . . . 
CA 381 
*CA@ 10/3 should read CA@ 10/4 
CA 424 

FONG, KATY 
*CA@ 10/3 should read CA@ 10/4

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Subject: PHARAOH RAMA-TUT

Dec 23, 2007 04:59 pm 
By Arthur
Director

PHARAOH RAMA-TUT 

A 269 (4:4)-FB 
*FF@ 2/2 -should read FF@ 2/3 ... (FF@ 2/2 is a reprint of FF 5) 
See SCARLET CENTURION

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Subject: AWC@ 4 adjustments

Dec 23, 2007 05:45 pm 
By Arthur
Director

DOCTOR PYM/HANK PYM 

A@ 18 
*AWC@ 4/2 should read AWC@ 4/3 
FF@ 22 

USAGENT/CAPTAIN JOHN WALKER/"JACK DANIELS" 

M/SH3 9 
*AWC@ 4/2 should read AWC@ 4/3 
AWC@ 5/5 

FIREBIRD/BONITA JUAREZ 

A 305 
*AWC@ 4/3 should read AWC@ 4/4 
ASPOT 27/2 


The second story in AWC@ 4 has Jan (Wasp) and Jen (She-Hulk), in character, talking to the readers (and each other), rating the Avenger males. It currently is not in the MCP. Maybe back whenever, characters talking to the audience may have been considered non-canon(?). (In a similar fashion, the Beast, in character, talks to the readership in AA 17, introducing the fill-in story (retelling his origin), as well as 4 panels at the end wrapping up; this also is not in the MCP.) 

If they are to be included, there are few clues for the Wasp and She-Hulk. I just placed them prior to the Annual story-line: 

WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM 

M/SH3 9 
**AWC@ 4/2 
A@ 18 
AWC@ 4 

SHE-HULK/JENNIFER WALTERS 

S-H2 11 
**AWC@ 4/2 
ASM@ 23 
A@ 18 
AWC@ 4 
T@ 14 

Hank`s was easier to place... 
BEAST/HENRY "HANK" P. MCCOY 

A 140-FB 
AA2 16 
**AA2 17 
H2 161

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Subject: GUSTAV HAUPTMANN and LINDA LITTLETREE

Dec 26, 2007 03:43 pm 
By Arthur
Director

totally unrelated 

HAUPTMANN, GUSTAV 

**FF@15/2 (6:6)-FB 
FF 85 
FF 86 
FF 87 



LITTLETREE, LINDA 

GR2 4 
*GR@ 3/3 should read GR@ 2/3

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Subject: origin of Galactus

Dec 26, 2007 10:04 pm 
By Arthur
Director

** new entry 
* Adjustment required to current entry 


GALACTUS/GALAN 

*T 169 (6 - 13:3)-FB life on Taa; death of Taa 
**SVC 1 (10:4-11:1)-FB gets name Galactus 
*T 169 (13:4)-FB careens through space 
**SVC 1 (12:3)-FB-BTS Galactus ship just before it crashes 
*T 168 (16:1)-FB-BTS crashes on planet, seen by watcher . (panel 15:7 removed from current listing. Panel shows only watcher and is earlier chronologically) 
T 169 (2:4 - 3:3)-FB watcher views wreckage, searches and then finds survivor 
T 169 (14:5 - 17:3)-FB studied by watcher, rebirth 
**SVC 1 (17:3-17:5)-FB-BTS falls into orbit, investigated by locals and left alone to mature 
*T 162 ( 16:4-18:2)-FB attacked, awakened and destroys world 
**SVC 1 (20:3-22:1)-FB views destroyed world; begins worldship project. 
*T 162 (18:3)-FB leaves to seek other worlds for sustenance 
CP 6-FB 


UATU 

TOS 53/3-FB origin 
**T 168 (15:7)-FB watcher on vigil 
**SVC 1 (12:3)-FB aware of Galans ship before it crashes 
**T 168 (16:1  16:4)-FB watches crash, then searching for crew, finds first body and understands cause 
**T 169 (2:5 - 3:3)-FB searches and then finds survivor 
**T 169 (14:5 - 16:3)-FB studies survivor, watches it grow and then depart 
TOS 54/3

Last edited by Arthur on 27 Dec 2007 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total. 

			*	*	*

Dec 26, 2007 10:21 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Wait... I was given to understand that the Watcher who saw Galactus hatch wasn't Uatu...

			*	*	*

Dec 26, 2007 11:32 pm 
By Arthur
Director

That's something I must have missed; do you know where it was determined?

			*	*	*

Dec 26, 2007 11:45 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Deluxe Handbook #4 refers to the one in question as "This Watcher, who was not Uatu, the Watcher who observes Earth,...". Anyone remember where else this was said?

			*	*	*

Dec 27, 2007 01:20 am 
By SeanCurtin

According to the OHOTMUDE, Ecce was the Watcher who witnessed the birth of Galactus. Although the Watcher depicted in Galactus' origin might have been intended to be Uatu when the story was written, Uatu has been characterized as relatively young and inexperienced Watcher (at least by the standards of the Watchers), so he probably hasn't been Watching since Galactus' rebirth.

			*	*	*

Dec 27, 2007 03:50 am 
By Enda80

Don't forget Adventures of the X-Men#11-12. The Handbooks have referenced this numerous times.

			*	*	*

Dec 27, 2007 10:59 am 
By Arthur
Director

Enda80 wrote: 
>>>
Don't forget Adventures of the X-Men#11-12
<<<

Is that the 12 issue series currently in the NON-canon list? If so, I fail to see the relevance.


SeanCurtin wrote:
>>>
Uatu has been characterized as relatively young and inexperienced Watcher 
<<<

Uatu's first listing in the MCP, TOS 53/3-FB, shows Uatu and his father, Ikor BEFORE they had a non-interference policy. So by watcher standards he may have been young, but that would not have prevented him from being around at Galactus' rebirth. 

However, if the OHOTMUDE states it was Ecce, I certainly won't argue the point!

			*	*	*

Dec 27, 2007 11:05 am 
By Arthur
Director

so, for Ecce then... 

ECCE [WATCHER] 

*T 168 (15:7)-FB watcher on vigil 
**SVC 1 (12:3)-FB aware of Galans ship before it crashes 
*T 168 (16:1  16:4)-FB watches crash, then searching for crew, finds first body and understands cause 
*T 169 (2:5 - 3:3)-FB searches and then finds survivor 
*T 169 (14:5 - 16:3)-FB studies survivor, watches it grow and then depart

			*	*	*

Dec 27, 2007 11:49 am 
By ShadZ

Arthur wrote:
>>>
Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Don't forget Adventures of the X-Men#11-12
<<<

Is that the 12 issue series currently in the NON-canon list? If so, I fail to see the relevance.
<<<

Adventures of the X-Men#11-12 reveal that that series (and by implication the Fox X-Men cartoon from the 1990s) doesn't just happen on any old alternate Earth; they happen in the Previous Universe, the one that suffered a Big Crunch that lead to the Big Bang that created the current universe. Galen appeared in Adventures of the X-Men#11-12 (or so I am told), so those issues should be counted in his chronology. 

BTW, I hate this whole concept. I think the idea that the Previous Universe resembled this one so closely that it had it's own Earth (and X-Men and Phoenix Force) shows a giant lack of imagination. The Previous Universe should be a very different place from this one, I think.ShadZ

			*	*	*

Dec 27, 2007 12:39 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Arthur's point still stands. You can campaign to remove the series from the non-canon list, but while it's on the list, it won't be added to the chronologies. 


watching: traffic

What's worse, Ignorance or Apathy?
I don't know, and I don't care.

			*	*	*

Dec 27, 2007 01:36 pm 
By Arthur
Director

ShadZ wrote: 
>>>
Adventures of the X-Men#11-12 reveal...
<<<

I personally don't believe that information retrieved from a series that has been presumed non-canon can be used as evidence of its own canonicity. IMHO

			*	*	*

Dec 27, 2007 01:38 pm 
By jephyork
Director

It's actually information retrieved from the Handbooks that's being referred to. They've referenced the events of #11-12 as being canon. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 12:54 am 
By wolframbane

I think specifically it was the OHOTMU entryfor the M'Kraan Crystal. However, I do not think it explicitly states that the universe of Galan was necessarily the same universe as the X-Men Adventures, they could very weel have been in alternate universes in the multiverse that preceded the modern Marvel Mulitverse. Also, the X-Men Adventures series itself may be canon, but not necessarily the animated series. There were several differences between the series and comic, the most notable in that the series went on for five seasons and the universe did not end, but the comic had the universe destroyed during the third season.

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 11:51 am 
By jephyork
Director

I don't think anyone's asserting that the animated series is canon... 

As for the Handbooks' contentions, can anyone provide a direct quote of the relevant section? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Subject: M/CP 137/2

Dec 28, 2007 01:47 pm 
By Arthur
Director

ANT-MAN II/SCOTT HARRIS LANG 

M/CP 131/2 
*M/CP 137/4 should read M/CP 137/2 
FFU 5 


GOLIATH III/ERIK JOSTEN 

WM2 25 
*M/CP 137/4 should read M/CP 137/2 
M/DF2 1-BTS 


LANG, CASSANDRA "CASSIE" 

M/CP 81/3 
*M/CP 137/4-FB should read M/CP 137/2-FB 
*M/CP 137/4 should read M/CP 137/2 
FF 393-BTS

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 05:36 pm 
By jephyork
Director

In those flipbook-style M/CP issues, how do we determine which one is the "first and second" story and which is the "third and fourth" story? 

Personally, I remember discovering that if you put the side with the indicia on the inside front cover facing forwards, the bar code would almost always end up on the "back" cover ... so that's how I oriented them in my longbox. But how does everyone else do it? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 06:46 pm 
By Arthur
Director

I also used the indicia as my indicator of the 'front' of the book. 

For cases like this posting, I take my cue from the stories aready in the MCP. I.e., in this instance the first story in M/CP 137, as listed in the chronologies, was the Wolverine story, so the rest of the sequencing followed naturally from that. 

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 06:47 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I thought it was done so that the two "front" stories were 1 & 2, and the inside stories 3 & 4.

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 07:04 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Same question applies, Somebody -- then how do you decide which story is #1 and which is #2?  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 07:33 pm 
By Somebody
Director

It matters for the initial post in this thread, because, given the 4-->2 nature Arthur's petitioning to change it from one model to the other  

Plus, if you DO do that, do you order them 1342 or 1432 (is the flip in the middle, or between C & D)? So much easier to list one-cover issues, ja?

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Dec 28, 2007 08:48 pm 
By Arthur
Director

There's no right or wrong here, whatever floats your boat as they say. 

But every issue already listed in the MCP that I've had occasion to research (plus another half dozen tonight just to play safe) have them listed in order: indicia side outer story #1, the immediate following #2, then flip over the outer story from that side is #3 and the final inner story #4. 

If it ain`t broke, don`t fix it.

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 09:01 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Phew -- glad I'm on the same page as the MCP, indicia-wise. 


>>>
Same question applies, Somebody -- then how do you decide which story is #1 and which is #2?

>>>
It matters for the initial post in this thread, because, given the 4-->2 nature Arthur's petitioning to change it from one model to the other

Plus, if you DO do that, do you order them 1342 or 1432 (is the flip in the middle, or between C & D)? So much easier to list one-cover issues, ja? 
<<<

...Somebody, I don't think you understood my question. I was asking: if someone was to number the stories the way you suggested -- outside stories being 1 and 2, inside stories being 3 and 4 -- the question still remains, how would they decide which "side" to start with? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 09:08 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I understood, but since I never said anything to the contrary, I had no direct reply to make... *shrugs*

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 09:09 pm 
By jephyork
Director

The contrary of what? Lord, I'm confused. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 09:31 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I never said you didn't have to pick a side of the comic to be "1" to start with. Assigning it to be the indicia side is as good a way as any.

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 09:38 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I didn't say you said that. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 09:46 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I can't tell if we're just doing schtick at this point, or what. 

Who's on first? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Subject: That Gyrich...

Dec 30, 2007 4:33 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Here's a brief recap of a bit of chronology... 

NW4 1-6 
T'Challa and Ororo appear here as FF members. 
The Initiative has to be saved by the New Warriors. 

FF 547-550 
She-Hulk is a SHIELD agent. 
Reed and Sue return to the FF. 

S-H4 17-18 
She-Hulk quits SHIELD just before WWH. 

WWH (crosses over with A:TI 4 and IAM 10) 

IAM 11 
Takes place "almost a month" after WWH and "weeks" after that. 

IAM 12 
"Three days" after the end if IAM 11. 
Ant-Man is to start Initiative training "tomorrow morning." 

A:TI 8 -- FB 
Ant-Man reports for Initiative training. 
Gyrich chews out the Initiative recruits for "just" being saved by the New Warriors (way back in NW4 4!) 


That Gyrich...like a dog with a bone... 

Paul B.

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Thread 28

Subject: Eternals v3 1-7

Nov 29, 2007 3:06 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Disclaimer: 
I dont know much about the Eternals. I have the Jack Kirby Eternals Omnibus, but I havent read through the whole thing yet.(that, and I cant get to it while were remodeling) I dont have any issues of the second volume. I do have the What If? issues that laid out the origin of the Eternals, but thats about it. And honestly, I wont have the chance to look into any of that stuff until January at the earliest.(tis the season for retail managers to have zero spare time  ) So if anyone wants to jump in on the FlashBacks here, youre more than welcome. Ill chip in where I can. 

Eternals #1(of 6) 
August, 2006 

Appearances: 
Mark Curry(Makarri), Ike Harris(Ikaris), Sersi, Druig, Thena Eliot(Thena), Sprite-BTS, Iron Man(Tony Stark), Morjak & Gelt(the 2 Deviants). 
On television: 
Grace, Trucker, ZeeBee, Tantrum, Orlando, Wasp, Mr. Fantastic, Sprite. 
In FlashBack: 
Ikaris, Makarri, some Celestials 

Synopsis: 
Pg1pn1-pg1pn3: now 
Mark Curry works at Bellevue hospital. 
Pg1pn4(of6)-pg3-FB: the 1970s 
Markarri is attacked by two Deviants, and hes saved by Ikaris. Meanwhile, the Celestials have returned to Earth. 
Pg4-pg12pn3: same day as pg1pn3 
Mark Curry cleans up and checks his phone to discover that his girlfriend has left him. Hes then approached by Ike Harris in the hallway, who tells him that theyre both half a million years old and have extraordinary powers. Mark tells him to get lost and goes back to work. At the end of his shift he goes home and watches an episode of Its just so Sprite, when Ike appears at his window. Mark tells him to get lost, so Ike flies away. Meanwhile across town, Sersi borrows money from a friend while telling her about her new party planning business. That night, Ike thinks to himself. 
Pg12pn4-pg13-FB 
Ikaris and Thena chat in the snow. 
Pg14-pg18: same day as pg12pn3 
Ike is attacked by two Deviants, and they detonate a bomb next to his face. Elsewhere, Sersi meets with Druig, a Vorozheika ambassador, who wants to throw a party inviting rich people and scientists to discover his country as a tourist location. That night Mark goes to work. As it turns out, Ike has survived the bombing and was brought to Bellevue. 
Pg19-pg21: next day 
Thena Eliot shows Tony Stark and some military men a new weapon shes created for Stark. That night, Ike tells Mark the secret behind intelligent design and human creation. 
Pg22-pg33pn1-FB 
The origin and creation of the Eternals, the Deviants, and the human race, as told by Ike Harris. 
Pg33pn2(of 3)-pg39: same day as pg21 
Mark doesnt buy Ikes story, especially the part about Mark being one of these Eternals. He leaves Ike to watch an episode of Americas Newest Super Hero. Mark is approached by two Deviants disguised as doctors, who convince him that Ike is crazy. Mark sedates Ike and they take him away. 

References: 
The Registration Act has been in place long enough for a reality TV show to be made from it. Later issues will have the characters asking What side are you on?, but I dont see how this can be during Civil War. It was published while Civil War was, but maybe theyre just asking if youre legal or illegal. 

The Deviants are working under direct orders to destroy Ikaris, giving that person a BTS. Its revealed in a later issue that its Sprite. Since he doesnt appear in the now parts of the issue, he gets a BTS. 

Its said here that the Third Host of Celestials came in the 1970s. Was this shown in the first volume of Eternals? Did that series interact with the rest of the Marvel Universe? Is it possible that it took place in the 70s, or is that another case of the creators treating publication dates and Marvel Time as the same thing? 

The Eternals all have amnesia thanks to Sprite screwing around with things, but Ike seems to remember more than everyone else. However, as revealed in a later issue, he doesnt have all the details right. This would call pg22-pg31pn1-FB into question, so I dont think its placeable, but just in case: 

Pg22-pg25-FB 
The Celestials arrive on Earth and create the Deviants, Eternals, and the human race. Same events as shown in What If? 23/2, no new information, even if it counts. 
Pg26-FB 
A group shot of the Eternals, and at least Zuras, Ikaris, Sprite, and Sersi are shown. There are others, but I dont recognize them. 
Pg27-pg31-FB 
The Deviants and Eternals fight, and at least Ikaris, Sersi, Druig, Makarri, Zuras, and Thena are shown. There are others, but I dont recognize them. Eventually, the Celestials arrive,(the Second Host) and clear out the excess Deviants, wiping out their civilization, sinking it beneath the Pacific Ocean. 
Pg32-FB 
The Eternals teach humanity lots of cool thing to do. Some guy is in Africa, Zuras and Ikaris are in Greece, and Makarri is in Egypt. 
Pg33pn1-FB: the 1970s 
The Third Host of Celestials arrive. 

Even if this isnt placeable, would it qualify a BTS for every Eternal in WI? 23/2? Generally speaking, Ikaris got the events correct, but his details were off. Who was called what, what happened roughly when, how many times the Celestials arrived, stuff like that. Im thinking that since his details were wrong it throws the whole thing into question. Right? 

On to Television! 
Mark watches an episode of Its just so Sprite on TV, and the show is shown on pg6pn2-pg6pn4. Its a scripted teen comedy show, and Sprite is one of the actors. 

Ike watches an episode of Americas Newest Super Hero on TV, and the show is shown on pg36pn2-pg37, and pg38pn2-pg38pn5. This is a reality show, similar to Top Chef or something, so its still pre-recorded, not live. Heres what happened: 

Pg36pn2-pg36pn5(of 5) 
The Wasp gives the group of Super Hero contestants their challenge for the week: to film a Public Service Announcement about registration. Aside from the Wasp, the heroes named are Grace, Trucker, ZeeBee, Tantrum, and Orlando. Shes shows them a PSA by Mr. Fantastic as an example. 
Pg37pn1 
Mr. Fantastics PSA. 
Pg37pn2-pg37pn3(of 3) 
The Wasp tells the group that theyre going to the set of Its just so Sprite and the winner of the challenge will record a PSA. The contestants are excited about meeting Sprite. 
Pg38pn2-pg38pn5 
Orlando & Sprites PSA. 

So yeah, a reality TV show to see who the next Super Hero will be. Maybe this is a forerunner to the Order? Or just something else going on at the same time? 

Eternals #2(of 6) 
September, 2006 

Appearances: 
Ike Harris(Ikaris), Mark Curry(Makarri), Sersi, Thena Eliot(Thena), Sprite, Druig, Zuras, Ajak, Grace, Trucker, ZeeBee, Tantrum, Orlando, Morjak & Gelt(the 2 Deviants). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: same day as end of last issue 
The two Deviants torture Ike trying to find a way to kill him, while they talk on the phone with Sprite. Meanhwhile, Mark goes out for coffee and runs into Sersi. After only knowing each other for a few minutes, they feel like theyve known each other for years. 
Pg6-pg9pn3: next day 
Sprite gives an interview, Ajak is seen outside. Meanwhile, Mark is written up and put on leave for letting a patient(Ike) go with people claiming to be doctors, but had no credentials. He then talks to the police. 
Pg9pn4(of 4)-FB: the 1970s 
Ikaris picks up Makarri in front of a Celestial. 
Pg10-pg24: same day as pg9pn3 
Sersi decides to invite Mark to her party, and a homeless and drunk Zuras is wandering the streets. Meanwhile, the Deviants try to melt Ike. That night Mark meets Sersi at the Vorozheika party. Druig, Thena Eliot & her husband, and the cast of Americas Newest Super Hero are there. Under Druigs command, terrorists attack and kidnap the scientists, Thenas husband is killed, and Mark realizes he can move at super-human speeds. Elsewhere, Ike is atomized. 

References: 
When guessing what super heroes are attending Sersis party, her friend lists off Iron Man, Captain America, and Spider-Man. Since registration is already the law at this point, guessing Captain America is kind of odd, he was a fugitive before the law went into effect. Also, Spider-Man would also most likely be a fugitive by this point, so thats strange, too. Unless this is after a new Captain America is named, and after One More Day. Or, her friend just doesnt pay attention to super hero current events. In any case, this cant be pre-Civil War. 

Eternals #3(OF 6) 
October, 2006 

Appearances: 
Ikaris, Mark Curry(Makarri), Sprite, Sersi, Druig, Thena Eliot(Thena), Iron Man(Tony Stark), Morjak & Gelt(the 2 Deviants) 
In FlashBack: 
Mark Curry(Makarri), Sersi, Druig, Thena Eliot(Thena), Iron Man(Tony Stark),Grace, Trucker, ZeeBee, Tantrum, Orlando 

Synopsis: 
Pg1pn1-pg1pn3(of 4): the day after end of last issue 
Mark Curry and Sprite chat. 
Pg1pn4-pg8pn3-FB: same night as end of last issue 
At super-human speed, Mark stops all the terrorists bullets and takes their guns. Grace helps out and defeats some of the terrorists with Mark, then Iron Man arrives. As Garce asks Mark if shell be kicked off the show, Iron Man takes Sersi aside. 
Pg8pn4(of 4)-pg12pn5: same day as pg1pn3 
Mark and Sprite chat. Meanwhile, the two Deviants pray to their Celestial god. Back in New York, Sersi chats with her friend. 
Pg12pn6(of 6)-pg13pn3-FB: same night as pg8pn3 
Iron Man confronts Sersi about registration, but she has no memory of ever being an Avenger. He tells her she needs to make her mind up quick. 
Pg13pn4(of 6)-pg14 
Sersi finishes her chat with her friend Abi. Elsewhere, Druig confront his aide Prykrish about what happened at the party. 
Pg15-FB: same night as end of last issue 
Druig runs from the party after he realizes the terrorists arent really working for him, and discovers he can persuade people to do what he wants. 
Pg16-pg17pn1: same night as pg14 
Druig discovers that the terrorists were hired to kill everyone at the party except for the scientists, including him. 
Pg17pn2-FB: about 40 years ago, maybe? 
A young Prykrish dresses up in his mothers clothes. 
Pg17pn3(of 9)-pg24: same night as pg17pn1 
Druig convinces Prykrish to kill himself. Meanwhile, Thena escapes from her captors and contacts Iron Man at Avengers Tower. Elsewhere, Ikaris wakes up in Antarctica 

References: 
Iron Man tells Sersi she cant stay neutral forever. But if the laws been in effect long enough to make a TV show out of it, the part where people could be neutral is long past. I guess Tony was giving a former Avenger a little leeway. 

Avengers Tower has the Sentry spires on it. Also, all Avengers records of Sersi have been erased. 

The Eternals have been amnesiacs for at least two years. 

Eternals #4(of 6) 
November, 2006 

Appearances: 
Ikaris, Thena, Sprite, Mark Curry(Makarri), Druig, Sersi, Dreaming Celestial 
In FlashBack: 
Ikaris, Makarri, Zuras, Ajak, Sprite, Sersi, Thena, James Barrie 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: same night as end of last issue 
Ikaris flies around Olympus, trying to figure out whats going on. 
Pg4-pg15pn1: next day 
Sprite takes Mark to the Golden Gate Bridge and explains that the reason he and Sersi were so comfortable with each other is because they were lovers for a couple hundred years. Meanwhile, Druig takes over Vorozheika. Elsewhere, Sersi discovers that she has super powers when she changes her cat into a dragon. Back in San Francisco, Sprite takes Mark underground and shows him the Dreaming Celestial. He tricks him into attacking it, which shuts Mark down and stirs the Celestial. In Antarctica, Ikaris turns Olympus back on and he regains his memory. And hes pissed. Meanwhile, Sprite gives Mark a history lesson. 
Pg15pn2-pg15pn3-FB: the early 5th century, Rome 
Sersi & Markarri break up. In Olympus Sprite offers to retrieve her, but Zuras says no. Hes just a child! 
Pg15pn4-FB: some time later 
Sprite asks is Sersi wants to sleep with him, but she says no. Hes just a child! 
Pg15pn5(of 5): now 
Sprite continues his story. 
Pg16pn1-FB: 1901 or so 
Sprite, dressed as the character that will be known as Peter Pan, messes around with James Barrie. 
Pg16pn2: now 
Sprite continues his story. 
Pg16pn3(of 4)-pg17pn3-FB: early 1900s 
The Dreaming Celestial has stirred in its sleep, causing an earthquake near San Francisco. Thena, Sprite, and three other Eternals go in, fix what they can, and make sure that the Celestial stays asleep. 
Pg17pn4-pg17pn5(of 5): now 
Sprite continues his story. 
Pg18pn1-pg18pn2-FB 
Sprite watches the Eternals, including Ikaris, Makarri, Sersi, and five others pal around. 
Pg18pn3: now 
Sprite continues his story 
Pg18pn4(of 5)-pg19-FB 
Sprite tricks Ajak and Zuras into visiting the Dreaming Celestial, which powers an illusion that makes all the Eternals forget who they are.(shown are Zuras, Ajak, Sprite, Sersi, Makarri, and Thena) 
Pg19-pg20pn2: now 
Sprite continues his story. Elsewhere, Thena Eliot starts to remember things. 
Pg20pn3(of 5)-pg21-FB: the First Host 
Thena fights hundreds of Deviants in Lemuria. 
Pg22-pg24: same day as pg15pn1 
Thena is an Eternal again as Ikaris arrives. He tells her theyre going to save the world. 

References: 
The dated Flashbacks should be pretty straightforward to place, if I knew what happens in that first Eternals volume 

Pg18pn1-pg18pn2-FB & Pg18pn4(of 5)-pg19-FB should be all of the Eternals last appearance before this mini. Also, its at least two years ago, if that works. 

Eternals #5(of 6) 
December, 2006 

Appearances: 
Ikaris, Zuras, Ajak, Thena, Sersi, Druig, Thena, Sprite, Mark Curry(Makarri), Yellowjacket, Wasp, Dreaming Celestial, ), Morjak & Gelt(the 2 Deviants) 
On Television: 
Grace 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg15: same day as end of last issue 
The two Deviants approach Sprite in the Golden Gate Park and attack him. Meanwhile, Ajak gives Zuras his memory back. Meanwhile, the Dreaming Celestial stirs. Meanwhile, Druig convinces half of the captured scientists to kill the other half. Back in San Francisco, the Deviants take Sprite back to the Celestial. 
Pg16pn1-pg16pn2-FB: the First Host 
The Celestials eat up the excess Deviants, thinning out their numbers. They actually EAT THEM! 
Pg16pn3(of 5)-pg25: same day as pg15 
Ikaris and Thena convince Sersi to go with them, but they dont have a chance to give her memories back. Meanwhile, Zuras and Ajak talk to Druig. Meanwhile, Yellowjacket and Wasp notice a seismic disturbance in California. Meanwhile, the ground cracks open and the Dreaming Celestial is exposed. 

References: 
At Sersis place the TV is on, and an episode of Americas Newest Super Hero is playing. Grace is seen on screen, and for anyone who cares, she had been kicked off the show for using her powers earlier in the series, but in this episode shes let back on the show. She's seen on the screen on pg19pn4. 

Its raining in New York. 

Eternals #6(of 7) 
January, 2007 

Appearances: 
Ikaris, Zuras, Ajak, Thena, Sersi, Druig, Thena, Sprite, Makarri, Iron Man, Yellowjacket, Wasp, Uatu the Watcher, Galactus, Dreaming Celestial, Morjak & Gelt(the 2 Deviants) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg32pn2: the day after last issue 
Everyone converges in San Francisco to stop the Dreaming Celestial from waking up. As it stirs, the Watcher is nervous and Galactus remembers what it means to be afraid. The Eternals attempt a Uni-Mind, but it doesnt work. As it wakes, the Dreaming Celestial chats telepathically with Mark. 
Pg32pn3-FB: during WI? 23/2 
The Dreaming Celestial personally creates Makarri. 
Pg32pn4-pg39: same day as pg32pn2 
Makarri regains his memory and tells Iron man, Yellowjacket, and the Wasp that the Celestial is awake. They confront the Eternals about registration and Zuras explains that they protect the entire planet, and one countrys laws are irrelevant to them. 

References: 
With Galactus just flying around space, this has to occur after Annihilation ends. So, post-Civil War & post-Annihilation. 

Eternals #7(of 7) 
March, 2007 

Appearances: 
Ikaris, Zuras, Ajak, Thena, Sersi, Druig, Thena, Sprite, Makarri, Iron Man, Dreaming Celestial, Kra(Deviant) 
In Flashback: 
Zuras, Iron Man, Dreaming Celestial, Ikaris-BTS, Ajak-BTS, Thena-BTS, Sersi-BTS, Druig-BTS, Thena-BTS, Sprite-BTS, Makarri-BTS, Yellowjacket-BTS, Wasp-BTS 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg10pn4: two days after last issue 
The Dreaming Celestial is now standing in Golden Gate Park. Meanwhile, the Eternals settle back into Olympus. Zuras has decided that he wont interfere with Druig running his own country. Kra and his Deviant army arrive, looking for a fight. Makarri offers a solution. Meanwhile, Sersi has dinner with Tonry Stark. 
Pg10pn5(of 6)-pg11pn3-FB: same day as last issue 
Zuras explains to Iron Man that they wont register with the American government. They will return to Olympia and find the other missing Eternals. Iron Man agrees. 
Pg11pn4(of 7)-pg15pn1: same day as pg10pn4 
Sersi tells Tony that she still doesnt remember being an Avenger, and that shes also not returning to Olympus. Shes going to throw parties. Meanwhile, Makarri tries to calm the Deviants down, but Druig just wants to kill them. 
Pg15pn2(of 7)-pg18-FB: yesterday 
Zuras has found Sprite, whos trying to run away. Zuras breaks his neck, killing him.(he had caused too much damage and could no longer be trusted) 
Pg19-pg23pn3: same day as pg15pn1 
Makarri convinces the Deviants to leave peacefully. 
Pg23pn4-pg26: two weeks later 
Makarri has decided to leave his life as mark Curry behind. Ajak is keeping watch under the Celestial, Druig is running his country, and Makarri and Ikaris will search for the remaining ninety Eternals. 

References: 
Overall, were looking at post-Civil War, post-Annihilation, and at least two years since the last time the Eternals have made an appearance. Since that was New Eternals: Apocalypse Now, published in 2000, I dont think that will be much of a problem. So at least two years, but more if possible, so Mark can go to medical school and for Thena to get married and have a kid. 

A quick breakdown: 

E3 6 (32:3)-FB: during WI? 23/2 
E3 4 (20:3-21)-FB: the First Host 
E3 5 (16:1-16:2)-FB: the First Host 
E3 4 (15:2-15:3)-FB: the early 5th century, Rome 
E3 4 (15:4)-FB 
E3 4 (16:1)-FB: 1901 or so 
E3 4 (16:3-17:3)-FB: early 1900s 
E3 3 (17:2)-FB forty years ago, give or take 
E3 1 (1:4-3)-FB: the 1970s, the Third Host(does that work?) 
E3 2 (9:4)-FB: the 1970s, the Third Host(does that work?) 
E3 1 (12:4-13)-FB(Im not sure where this goes, probably just before Sprite does his thing?) 
E3 4 (18:1-18:2)-FB 
E3 4 (18:4-19)-FB at least two years ago, more if possible 
-at some point, Mr. Fantastic records his registration PSA- 
-at some point, Sprite films an episode of Its just so Sprite- 
-at some point, filming for Americas Newest Super Hero begins- 
E3 1 (1:1-1:3) Day 1 
E3 1 (4-12:3) Day 1 
E3 1 (14-18) Day 1 
E3 1 (19-21) Day 2 
E3 1 (33:2-39) Day 2 
E3 2 (1-5) Day 2 
E3 2 (6-9:3) Day 3 
E3 2 (10-24) Day 3 
E3 3 (1:4-8:3)-FB Day 3 
E3 3 (12:6-13:3)-FB Day 3 
E3 3 (15)-FB Day 3 
-another episode of Americas Newest Super Hero is filmed- 
E3 3 (1:1-1:3) Day 4 
E3 3 (8:4-12:5) Day 4 
E3 3 (13:4-14) Day 4 
E3 3 (16-17:1) Day 4 
E3 3 (17:3-24) Day 4 
E3 4 (1-3) Day 4 
E3 4 (4-15:1) Day 5 
E3 4 (15:5) Day 5 
E3 4 (16:2) Day 5 
E3 4 (17:4-17:5) Day 5 
E3 4 (18:3) Day 5 
E3 4 (19-20:2) Day 5 
E3 4 (22-24) Day 5 
E3 5 (1-15) Day 5 
E3 5 (16:3-25) Day 5 
E3 6 (1-32:2) Day 6 
E3 6 (32:4-39) Day 6 
E3 7 (10:5-11:3)-FB Day 6 
E3 7 (15:2-18)-FB Day 7 
E3 7 (1-10:4) Day 8 
E3 7 (11:4-15:1) Day 8 
E3 7 (19-23:3) Day 8 
E3 7 (23:4-26) two weeks later 

Aside from that, my questions are: 

Is the Third Host shown in the first Eternals volume? If not, where? And can it happen in the 1970s? 

How do the dated FlashBacks fit into the various Eternals chronologies? 

Since we know there are only 100 Eternals, and all of them are eternal, and there havent been any new ones since the original creation, does that qualify all of the Eternals for a BTS for WI? 23/2? 

Do Ikaris not-so-reliable FlashBacks from issue 1 count?(probably not)

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Nov 29, 2007 6:05 am 
By dimadick

"ts said here that the Third Host of Celestials came in the 1970s. Was this shown in the first volume of Eternals? Did that series interact with the rest of the Marvel Universe? Is it possible that it took place in the 70s, or is that another case of the creators treating publication dates and Marvel Time as the same thing?" 

1) According to Uncanny X-Men Annual #13 (1989), the First Host of the Celestials arrived on Earth c. 1,000,000 BC. 

Results:Experiments on "humans" (possibly Homo erectus) created the sub-species of Deviants and Eternals. A dormant DNA complex was implanted in mainstream humanity which would lead to benevolent mutations in later generations. (The ancestors of human mutants). 

2) According to "Eternals" vol. 1 #2 (August, 1976), the Second Host of the Celestials caused the Great Cataclysm. Which places it c. 18,000 BC. 

Results:Atlantis, Lemuria, parts of the Thurian continent and the Pictish isles sink under the ocean. Surviving populations of humans form various cultures which are later seen in the Hyborian Age of Conan. Refugees fleing into Antarctica colonise the Savage Land. Deviants loose much of their population and survivors seem to mostly retreat to Subterranea. Eternals seem curiously unaffected. Homo Mermanus would later rise to claim the sunken lands but their own ancestry has not been specified. 

3) According to "Thor" vol. 1 #300-301 (October-November, 1980), the Third Host of the Celestials arrived on Earth c. 1000 AD. 

Results:The various gods of the Earth Pantheons are cowed to sever their relations with mortals and stop trafficking on Earth. While some of them continue to violate this agreement, they tend to play behind-the-scenes roles and acting through human champions in still affecting the fates of humanity. With no active presence, several of the pantheons begin loosing the majority of their worshippers. 

The Celestials set a date to return about a thousand years later and judge whether humanity was worthy of survival. Odin starts preparing a plan to face them in battle, creating the Destroyer for this cause. Gaea forms her own plan, gathering the Goddesses of the pantheons and convincing them to help her collect the finest human specimens. The specimens selected would be offered to the Celestials as proof of their species' worth. The Goddesses start collecting the future "Young Gods". 

A ship left behind on Earth was later discovered by immortal mutant En Sabah Nur who thus acquired Celestial technology. 

4) The Fourth Host of the Eternals finally arrived in "Eternals" vol. 1 #1 (July, 1976), appeared in several issues of both "Eternals" and "Thor" and finally left in "Thor" vol. 1 #300 (October, 1980). 

The last issue gave ended the period with their final battle against the Asgardians and Eternals. 

Odin takes the lifeforces of every available Asgardian (except Thor and likely others who were not present in Asgard), unites them with his own and leaves his body to enter the Destroyer. With the other pantheons deciding to sit this battle out, Destroyer and the Uni-Mind of the Eternals face the entire Fourth Host alone. 

Unsurprisingly, the Uni-Mind falls in minutes and the Destroyer melts away. With the Asgardian lifeforces within gone. An angry Thor, who had arrived just in time to see the apparent fall of the Asgardians, impulsively challenges Arishem the Judge to single combat. Neither Mjolnir nor the Odinsword proove lethal to Arishem. Thor is left weaponless while Arishem advances toward him. 

Then Gaea arrives and saves the day. She presents the Young Gods and ,on their merits, Arished decides to let the Earth (and Thor) survive. 

Results: Humanity survives and the Celestial long-term experiment on Earth continues with it. The Young Gods are put under the training of Juniper and Katos to learn how to use their new abilities. The Asgardians who lent their life energies to the Destroyer are dead. But Thor petinions the other Pantheons to use part of their own lifeforces to revive their Asgardian kin. Zuras is killed but his spirit survives and is later seen either residing in his own corpse or as a disembodied spirit. 

5) Thor's MCP chronology at the moment has the events of Thor #285-302 occur without interaptions. The events of the Fourt Host are tied with whichever place the issues are placed. 

The issues feature Asgardians, Eternals, Deviants, Olympians, Aboriginals, various members of other Earth Pantheons and associate characters. Other than the Young Gods, no humans actually appear and there is nothing strictly tying the saga with other events of the Marvel Universe at the time. 

Gaiman seems to have placed the events in their time of publication and ignored the sliding timescale completely. He seems to have confused the Third and the Fourth Host with each other. No reason to have his interpretation of past events actually change anything where MCP is concerned.

			*	*	*

Nov 29, 2007 11:24 am 
By dimadick

"Since we know there are only 100 Eternals, and all of them are eternal, and there havent been any new ones since the original creation, does that qualify all of the Eternals for a BTS for WI? 23/2?" 

Actually this is a mess. In previous accounts they reproduced just like anyone else and very few of those surviving to the present were supposed to belong to the first generation. 

100 first generation ones? I am only familiar with the better known Eternals but an extented list is given in Encyclopaedia Olympiana. See: http://geocities.com/Area51/Matrix/1142 ... aedia.html 

I will try to list them, familial connections and age given in previous appearances: 

1) Aginar. A Polar Eternal with service record in the Soviet Union. Follower of Valkin. He was last seen leaving Earth. 

2) Ajak. A Polar Eternal. Son of Rakar and Amaa. Brother of Arex. He was active at least as early as the Trojan War and was mistaken as Ajax the Great. Has assumed various roles since. He is their expert on communications with the Celestials. Last seen commiting suicide in "Eternals: The Herod Factor" (1991). 

3) Amaa. Wife of Rakar. Mother of Ajak and Arex. 

4) Apocryphus, the last Eternal. One of the Anachronauts under Kang. Alleged son of Sersi. Notably did not recohnize his own alleged mother while fighting against the Avengers. Assumed deceased in "Avengers Forever". 

5) Arex. A Polar Eternal. Son of Rakar and Amaa. Brother of Arex. He was active at least as early as the Trojan War and was mistaken as Ajax the Lesser. Last seen rescued from Deviant captivity by the Heroes For Hire. 

6) Argos. An Eternal seen on monitor duty in vol. 2. 

7) Arlok. Loyal follower of Uranos in Earth and planet Uranos. Killed in conflict with the Kree. His recovered remains were later used in the Kree experiments resulting in the Inhumans. 

8) Astarte. A founding member of the Damocles Foundation and among its main field agents. 

9) Astron. Follower of Uranos. Led the Eternals of Uranus in his absence. Perished with the others when Deathurge destroyed their protective dome. 

10) Atlo. A friend of Ikaris and gladiator in the time of the Roman Empire. 

11) Aurelle. A member of the "New Breed". Tends to socialize with humans more often than other Eternals. She reportedly had not seen Ikaris in 200 years at the time of "New Eternals". Last seen freequenting the nightclubs of New York City. 

12) Captain Marvel/Genis-Vell. An Eternal-Kree hybrid. Son of Elysius and Mar-Vell. Brother of Quasar/Phylla-Vell and paternal half-brother of Hulkling/Teddy Altman. 

13) Ceyote. A member of the New Breed. Has acclimated himself with Native American tribes and cultures for quite some time. He works as a sculptor under the alias "Thomas Hawk". Father of Iris Devereux by unnamed human woman. 

14) Chi Demon/Suyin King. A member of the New Breed. An Asian-looking Eternal. Professor at the University of California, Berkeley. 

15) Cybele. Wife of Zuras. Mother of Thena. Maternal grandmother of Deborah Ritter and Donald Ritter. 

16) Daina. Wife of Kronos. Mother of Zuras and Mentor/A'Lars. Paternal grandmother of Thena, Eros and Thanos. Great-grandmother of Deborah Ritter and Donald Ritter. 

17) Dava. An Uranian Eternal. Associate of Marvel Boy/Robert Grayson in his original series. 

18) Delphan Brothers. A small combat unit of Olympian Eternals. No individual members identified. Regognisable through their standard uniforms. Easily defeated by Sersi when attempting to arrest her. 

19) Demeityr. An Eternal of Titan. He is about 700 years old. Lover of Sundragon/Pamela Douglas. 

20) Denga. An Uranian Eternal. Befriended Dr. Horace Grayson in the 1950s Marvel Boy series. 

21) Iris Devereux. An Eternal-homo sapiens hybrid. Daughter of Ceyote and an unnamed human woman. Seen as an elderly woman in "New Eternals", could pass as his mother rather than daughter. Unknown if she ages in slower rates than normal humans but definetely shorter than Eternal rates. 

22) Dionysus. An Eternal of Titan. Technically he was created by ISAAC by combining DNA from unknown Eternals. He resembles a satyr from Greek mythology. 

23) Domo. An Olympian Eternal. Head Technologist at the Temple of Command in Olympia. Responsible for contacting scattered Eternals throughout the world when it is time to form the Uni-Mind. Last seen leaving the Earth. 

24) Druig. A Polar Eternal. Son of Valkin. Nephew of Virako. Paternal first cousin and adoptive brother of Ikaris. Entered the service of the Soviet Union and achieved rank in the KGB. Expert torturer. Killed by Ikaris. In "Captain Marvel" vol. 4 #5 (April, 1996), revealed to be held in stasis in the Desecration Annex, a prison for those abusing their cosmic powers. 

25) Electryon. A founding member of the Damocles Foundation and among its main field agents. 

26) Master Elo. The "grooviest of the gurus" among Olympian Eternals. Considered "Ancient" among his fellow Eternals. Tutored a young Makkari in the use of his speed. Last seen rescued by his former studen and Quasar/Wendell Elvis Vaughn in "Quasar" #23. 

27) Elysius. An Eternal of Titan. Technically she was created by ISAAC by combining DNA from unknown Eternals. Lover of Mar-Vell, mother of Captain Marvel/Genis-Vell and Phylla-Vell by him. Killed by the reanimated corpse of her lover but restored through timeline alterations by her son. 

28) Emlot. An Eternal of Titan. Priest of Shao-Lom. Recovered a young Heather Douglas from Earth and presented her to Mentor and Kazantra. Responsible for raising Heather with unnamed fellow priests. 

29) Starfox/Eros. Third Generation Eternal. Son of Mentor and Sui-San. Brother of Thanos. Nephew of Zuras. Paternal first cousin of Thena.An Avenger. 

30) Forgotten One/Gilgamesh. Former King of Uruk. Known as Hero for assuming many heroic identities through the centuries. Has been mistaken for Atlas, Hercules, Samson and Beowulf. Has fought alongside Achilles, Aeneas, David of Israel and William "Buffallo Bill" Cody. Avenger. Apparently killed by Neut, an agent of Kang/Immortus during the "Crossing". 

31) Helios. Husband of Perse. Father of Sersi. 

32) Icarus. Eternal-homo sapiens hybrid. Son of Ikaris. Grandson of Virako and Tulayn. He used a flight harness to fly. During his last flight, "flew too high, and lost oxygen, passing out. When the harness ran out of power, he fell to the earth and was killed." 

33) Ikaris. A Polar Eternal. Son of Virako and Tulayn. Nephew and adoptive son of Valkin. Paternal first cousin and adoptive brother of Druig. Orhaned by mother when he was "only" 300. Lost his father when he was 1010. Adopted and subsequently raised by his uncle. Fathered Icarus by an unnamed human woman. He was an adult during the Great Cataclysm 18, 000 BC and helped humans survive the flood. Last seen as the newly elected Prime Eternal, displacing Thena. 

34) Interloper. A Polar Eternal. Has spend millenia alternatively fighting the Dragon of the Moon or living in seclusion in a cabin in Siberia. Rarely interacts with other Eternals or humans. Joined the Defenders to face the Dragon again. Lost his body in the battle. Spirit later bonded to William Fanshawe, a Welsh truck driver. Last seen sharing the body with its original owner. 

35) Kazantra. Eternal of Titan. Second known wife of Mentor/A'lars. Decided to place young Heather Douglas in the "Shao-Lom monastary" (sic). 

36) Khoryphos. Eternal musician. Has been mistaken for Horus and Orpheus. He is also a reluctant warrior. In recent times he has allied himself with peaceloving Deviants attempting to flee their warlike society and its internal conflicts. 

37) Kronos. First Generation Eternal. Brother of Uranos. Husband of Daina. Father of Zuras and Mentor/A'Lars. Paternal grandfather of Thena, Eros and Thanos. Great-grandfather of Deborah Ritter and Donald Ritter. The Eternal whose experiments granted them cosmic power. His experiments discorporated his body, spirit apparently survives. 

38) Lilli. An Uranian Eternal. She was interested in Marvel Boy/Robert Grayson romantically and attempted to join him in missions. Only to be returned home and told to stay put. 

39) Makkari. A member of the Technologists' Guild of Olympia. Son of Veron and Mara. Has been active since at least the Trojan War and is typically among the most active in interactions with humanity. 

40) Mara. A member of the Technologists' Guild of Olympia. Wife of Veron, mother of Makkari by him. 

41) Mentor/A'Lars. Second Generation Eternal. Husband of Sui-San and father of Eros and Thanos by her. Husband of Kazantra in recent years. Brother to Zuras, paternal uncle to Thena. Ruler of the Eternals of Titan. 

42) Nebula. Alleged daughter of Zorr the Luphomoid, a Nova foe.Alleged niece of Kraa. Allegend granddaughter of Thanos. Either an Eternal-Luphomoid hybrid or an imposter. 

43) Oceanus. Eternal who assisted Kronos against Uranos in the civil war between brothers. 

44) Perse. Wife of Helios. Mother of Sersi. 

45) Phastos. The Master Technologist of the Eternals. Often mistaken for Hephaestus for onvious reasons. He is responsible for most of the technology and weaponry of the Eternals. Mentor of Sigmar. He has grown disenchanted with his long life and tends to get in depressed and suicidal. In recent times he owns an engineering plant in Ruhr Valley of Germany and lives there. Though providing technical assistance to fighters in numerous battles, Phastos is a pacifist and never enters battle himself. 

46) Pixie. A member of the First Line since the 1960s. Among the last survivors of the team and its associates. Extraordinary resistant to telepathy. 

47) Psykos. A member of the "New Breed". He works as a police negotiator in Toronto under the alias "Ronnie Sykes". He has focused himself in developing his psychic powers and is an expert telepath. 

48) Quasar/Phylla-Vell. An Eternal-Kree hybrid. Daughter of Elysius and Mar-Vell. Brother of Captain Marvel/Genis-Vell and paternal half-sister of Hulkling/Teddy Altman. Lover of Moondragon/Heather Douglas. 

49) Rakar. Husband of Amaa. Father of Ajak and Arex. 

50) Deborah Ritter. Techically an Eternal-Deviant hybrid. Daughter of Thena and Kro. Granddaughter of Zuras and Cybele. Born during the Vietnam War. 

51) Donald Ritter. Techically an Eternal-Deviant hybrid. Son of Thena and Kro. Granddaughter of Zuras and Cybele. Born during the Vietnam War. 

52) Sersi. An expert in matter manipulation. Daughter of Helios and Perse. Alleged mother of Apocryphus. Seen as a child in "Captain America Annual" #11 (1992), traveling with Utnapishtim. Met Gilgamesh when the later was seeking immortality, unaware he was already immortal. Lover of Odysseus and Telemachus, Mentor of Merlin, Avenger. 

53) Shastra. A female Eternal. Follower of Uranos. Founding member of the Eternals of Uranus and Titan. Presumably died in the civil war on Titan. 

54) Sigmar. A Polarian Eternal. An engineer and student of Phastos. Appears aged and seemingly older than his mentor. Persumably less resistant to aging for some reason. Last seen leaving Earth. Phastos takes care of his two surviving laboratories in case his student returns. 

55) Sprite. Eternal with a the appearance of a young boy. Typically mistaken for Robin Goodfellow, inspiration for Puck by William Shakespeare. Formerly aide to Gilgamesh. Proposed the idea of the Black Knight becoming Gann Josin to Sersi, instead of killing her. 

56) Sui-San. Supporter of Uranos, last survivor of the civil war among the Eternals of Titan. Married Mentor/A'lars. Mother of Eros and Thanos by him. Killed by Thanos. 

57) Kingo Sunnen. An Eternal from Hokkaido, Japan. Spends most of his days in his native country. He was a samurai since at least the 16th century. In recent times he has achiefed fame as the star of martial arts films. He resides in Tokyo. 

58) Thanos. Third Generation Eternal. Son of Mentor and Sui-San. Brother of Eros. Nephew of Zuras. Paternal first cousin of Thena. He is a mutant of his species with different appearance and increased abilities than other Eternals of Titan. Alleged grandfather of Nebula. 

59) Thena. Third Generation Eternal. Mother of Deborah Ritter and Donald Ritter. Daughter of Zuras and Cybele. Granddaughter of Kronos and Daina. 

60) Thyrio. A follower of Uranos. A founding member of the Eternals of Uranus and Titan. Presumably slain in their civil war. 

61) Titanis. An African-looking Eternal who was seen with Ajak, Ikaris and Sersi in "Marvel Super-Hero Contest of Champions" #1 (July, 1982). No other appearances to date. 

62) Tulayn. A scientist. Wife of Virako and mother of Ikaris. Killed in a "teleportation accident". 

63) Tycho. A Titan Eternal. Seemingly a child. He was orphaned when his unnamed parents were killed by Thanos. Drax and Firelord took charge of him until being able to return him to Titan. 

64) Uranos. First Generation Eternal. Brother of Kronos, paternal uncle of Zuras and Mentor/A'lars. Fought and lost a civil war against his brother. He and unnamed followers were exiled into space and founded the colony of Eternals of (planet) Uranus. He and smaller number of followers left Uranus and ended up stranded on Titan. Founder of the Eternals of Titan. The colony eventually entered a civil war and slaughtered each other, Sui-San being the sole survivor. 

65) Utnapistin. Survivor of the Great Cataclysm. Seen as an adult when Sersi was a child and Gilgamesh did not know his own immortality in "Captain America Annual" #11. Sersi considered him an Eternal but no other interactions are known. 

66) Valkin. Leader of the Polar Eternals. Father of Druig. Brother of Virako. Paternal uncle and adoptive father of Ikaris. In recent years entered service in the Red Army under the alias "Vulcanin" and reached the rank of Colonel. Was last seen leaving Earth. 

67) El Vampiro. A Luchador, (professional Lucha libre performer) in Mexico. His stage persona is a vampire but he does not seem to actually have mamiristic powers. 

68) Veron. A member of the Technologists' Guild of Olympia. Husband of Mara, father of Makkari by hwe. 

69) Virako. A Polar Eternal. Husband of Tulayn, father of Ikaris. Brother of Valkin and paternal uncle of Druig. A missionary who took lesser Earth cultures under his wing, including the Aztecs. Killed in battle with Dromedan millenia ago but somehow resurrected by Apocalypse in "New Eternals". Last seen settling in Olympia under the rule of his son but not really supporting it. 

70) Zarin. A Polar Eternal. Joined the military of the Soviet Union. Personall pilot to Valkin. Last seen leaving Earth. 

71) Zuras. Second Generation Eternal. Father of Thena, paternal grandfather of Deborah Ritter and Donald Ritter. Husband of Cybele. Son of Kronos and Daina. Brother of Mentor/A'lars, paternal uncle to Eros and Thanos. First Eternal to achieve Uni-Mind.

			*	*	*

Nov 29, 2007 1:49 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

dimadick wrote:
>>>
Gaiman seems to have placed the events in their time of publication and ignored the sliding timescale completely. He seems to have confused the Third and the Fourth Host with each other. 
<<<

Nah, Ikaris confused the Third and Fourth Hosts. And then, in turn, I confused them. According to volume 3, the Celestials came to Earth four times, including the original time shown in WI? 23/2. I kept calling the Third Host the Third Host, becuase it was their third return visit, but it was actually their fourth time. Sorry about that. 

As for the '1970s', it's not that big a deal. Any idea how the Fourth Host FlashBacks seen here fit in with Thor 300? Or is it just duplicated information?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Nov 30, 2007 9:30 am 
By dimadick

"Pg1pn4(of6)-pg3-FB: the 1970s 
Markarri is attacked by two Deviants, and hes saved by Ikaris. Meanwhile, the Celestials have returned to Earth." 

"Pg33pn1-FB: the 1970s 
The Third Host of Celestials arrive." 

"Pg9pn4(of 4)-FB: the 1970s 
Ikaris picks up Makarri in front of a Celestial." 

There are summaries of the 1970s Eternals series here:http://www.geocities.com/brenni_au/Et1.html 

However I will take my shot trying to locate a suitable issue. 

1) The Celestials returned to Earth on "Eternals" vol. 1 #1 (July, 1976). 
Actually they had not landed yet but a beacon leading to their old Chamber lights up. Signifying they are approaching Earth and need help finding the right landing spot. 

However the only Eternal actually debuting in the issue was Ikaris. 

2) In #2 (August, 1976), the Celestials land in the right location. 

They are not too happy to see a welcoming committee consisting of Ikaris the Eternal, Kro the Deviant, Dr. Daniel Damian and Margo Damian waiting for them. Particularly when Kro "proclaims that the Deviants will rule the earth again one day, and send the gods back to the stars! " 

They are pacified when (debuting) Ajak awakes from hibernation and genuinely welcomes them. Arishem the Judge concludes the issue with the first spoken line by a Celestial :"When the first of us appears to you, faithful one- Look well upon his visage- and know the meaning of our mission!" 

I am guessing the second flashback fits here. 

3) #3 (September, 1976) does not actually feature the Celestials. They suppossedly close off the area of the Chamber and are not expected to let anyone enter or leave it for the next "fifty years". 

The Deviants had already fled by the conclusion of the previous issue. Dr. Daniel Damian decides to stay and study the Celestials. 

Ikaris leaves and takes Margo Damian with him. He teleports their plane from the Andes Mountains, where the Celestials currently reside, to New York City. While Margo protests that her home is in Denver, Colorado, Ikaris wants to convince another Eternal to babysit Margo while he is away. The babysitter is a New York resident by the name of Sersi. 

Meanwhile Deviant military forces arrive on New York and start putting the city on fire as crowds flee. Ikaris alone combats them by the end of the issue. 

4) #4 (October, 1976), features only Arishem silently overseeing construction in the Chamber. 

Most of the issue deals with the battle in New York City. Ikaris falls and is captured. But any Deviant foolhardy enough to face Sersi gets to spend the rest of his days in lizard form. Sersi prepares to asks for reinforcements. 

5) #5 (November, 1976), features only photographs of the Celestial Chamber and Arishem which have arrived in the Pentagon. As various officers try to decide if the "Alien Giants" may be their opponents in the next war entered by the United States. 

On the Eternal front, we have the debutes of Domo, Makkari, Thena and Zuras. Our first look at Olympia as well. 

Sersi uses an enchanted mirror to communicate with Makkari , "the oldest juvenile of all". Sersi and Makkari banter like old friends but two Deviants sneak up on her and knock her out. They abduct Sersi and Margo. 

Makkari notes that this is not the first time Sersi fins herself "in the wrong spot at the wrong time". He comments on once having to yank her out of Ancient Rome during Nero's big bonfire. He spends several pages trying to convince Domo to arrange an audience with Zuras for him. 

While the captive Sersi awakes and begins rearanging body parts of Kro, Zuras and Thena are busy playing a game involving battling robots. They at last grant Makkari his audience, though not overjoyed to speak with the "racing nut". 

They are not very concerned about Sersi. According to Thena, her fellow lady Eternal is a "bundle of trouble" and they should be more worried about the Deviants. However Thena jumps at the opportunity for battle. Thena has Makkari fly her to New York as Zuras and the others stay behind. The issue concludes with Thena and Makkari in an ongoing battle with the Deviants. 

This is our first look at Makkari but no Ikaris on sight. 

6) In #6 (December, 1976), three unidentified SHIELD agents are seen approaching the Celestial Chamber. Before having a chance to discover much, Gammenon the Gatherer captures them. 

On the Eternal front, Kro and Thena finally meet. They seem to have past history together but Thena is surprised to see him alive. While "Eternals cannot die", Deviants are much less enduring. But Kro has already been active for more than a millennium with no signs of aging. Kro comments that some Deviants are superior than others and that he too can bridge the centuries. 

They agree to a truce with each other. Acting on behalf of Eternals and Deviants they decide to properly introduce themselves to mainstream humanity and seek a common solution in facing the Celestials. Sersi, Ikaris and Margo are released, though Sersi had made it clear that she could escape at any moment and was simply securing Margo's safety. 

The joined mission of Eternals and Deviants go to City College. They seek to recruit Samuel Holden, an anthropologist recommented by Margo as being willing to listen before judging. 

First meeting of Ikaris and Makkari throughout the series but they do not actually fight alongside each other. They are parts of an unofficial diplomatic mission. 

7) #7 (January, 1977) features only the Celestials and Ajak. No other Eternals. 

The three captive SHIELD agents are identified as Parks, Stevenson and Tyler. Ajak and Dr. Daniel Damian explain the situation to them throughout the issue. They keep trying to escape though and a reduced to a cube of merged molecules for their efforts. 

The identified Celestiald this issue include Arishem The Judge, Gammenon the Gatherer, Jemiah the Analyzer and Tefral the Surveyor. Introduction of The One Above All but not much more of a role for him. For some reason he remains on their spaceship while all others go on with their mission. 

8) #8 (February, 1977) features no Celestials. 

The spotlight goes to Kro and Thena. They seem to be former lovers and Kro is hopefull or reviving their past relationship. Thena however believes that the differences between them are too wide for the relationship to work. Meanwhile Kro takes her to the City of Toads to attempt to formalize the truce with the higher up Deviants. 

The Deviant society and philosophy get fleshed out a bit. The rest of the main cast are in New York City with Samuel but not much occurs. No battles for Ikaris and Makkari. 

9) #9 (March, 1977), have the Celestials located by Domo and Zuras. And humans as well. Their mysterious mission makes them visible as Nezarr the Calculator has landed in the Soviet Union, Oneg the Prober in Australia, Hargen the Measurer in Switzerland and Eson the Searcher in Miami Beach, Florida. Eson dives in the waters and heads for Deviant Lemuria. 

Kro and Thena witness the conclusion of a gladiatorial battle that started the previous issue. Ikaris and Makkari are heading to Olympia with Margo when they are attacked by a flying serpent. Makkari reveals to them the attack is a game created by Sprite, a small monster of an Eternal "with weird ideas concerning the state of humor!" Makkari uses Sprite's butt for target practice and then Ikaris hunts him down, intend on more physical punishment. 

Eson arrives in Lemuria and the Deviants try to face in battle.With little effort Eson shuts down the energy of all weaponry and equipment in Lemuria. Including the force shield holding Ransak, a psychotic murderer of a Deviant, who wants to get his hand at more victims. 

Here Ikaris and Makkari fight Sprite but no Deviants. 

10) #10 (April, 1977) , Hargen, Nezarr and Oneg continue with their mission. Eson leaves much of Lemuria in ruins but departs as quicly as he got there. He reportedly is going to survey the oceans of Earth for the following years. 

Zuras tries to telepathically connect with the Celestials. But initial contact with the mind of the One Above All shakes him so much that he decides against trying this ever again. He had Domo sound the unifier, a signal summoning every Eternal across the globe to Olympia. 

The only Eternals actually seen responding are Ikaris, Makkari, Sprite and Thena. Ikaris stops his sound spanking of Sprite. Sprite claims there is a generation gap between them. Margo assumes Sprite is very young but Makkari clarifies "not young in human terms". According to Makkari, Sprite was included in a play by some writer called William Shakespeare some centuries ago. 

Thena departs Lemuria with two Deviants in her custody. The heavily wounded Karkas who seeks sanctuary with the Eternals and Ransak. She has apparently decided that Ransak is not responsible for his actions and plans to see if better treatment may change him into a better person. (Ransak is gorgeous by human terms but keeps trying to kill her and keeps failing). 

Again no battles for Ikaris and Makkari. Unless you count spanking as a battle. 

11) #11 (May, 1977) , has the Soviet Union attempt to launch a nuclear strike on Nezarr who continues to reside in their land. But Nezarr somehow causes telepathic illusions and then cardiac arrests to every staff member involved in the mission. 

In the Eternal front we have the introduction of the rivalry between Olympian and Polarian Eternals. In the form of Valkin, Druig, Aginar and Zarin, all officers of the Soviet Union answering the summons and being greeted by the fists of the Delphan Brothers who try to pick a fight. Ikaris joins the fight on the site of his kin. 

Makkari has returned to Olympia. Sersi has also answered the summons and informs Margo on various aspects of Eternal culture. Including that Ikaris is the best of "those boors" of Polaria. 

While "legions" of other Eternals have arrived, only Kingo Sunen gets properly introduced. The others mostly wonder what was the big deal that had Zuras interrupt their lives to gather them there. An unnamed woman even suggests Zuras is getting scared easily in his old age. 

Ikaris gets to fight the Delphan Brothers but no Deviants. Makkari mostly gets along with everyone else. 

12) #12 (June, 1977), only has Arishem the Judge sitting in the same position. According to Ajak and Dr. Daniel Damian he has not even moved a finger in quite some time. Meanwhile the two seek ways to make the next fifty years with the silent Celestial more passable. 

In Olympia, Thena arrives with Karkas and Ransak. A group on unnamed female Eternals interrogate them on why two Deviants have now entered Olympia. Ransak finds himself in the center of female attention and is propositioned left and right. He plans to find the weaknesses of Olympia and use them. But he is still intrigued by the attention. 

All gathered Eternals next take to the air to join the Uni-Mind. With Margo and Samuel with them as gest of Ikaris and Sersi respectively. 

No battles whatsoever. 

13) #13 (July, 1977) introduces the Forgotten One. 

The Deviants sent a mission consisting of three unnamed members to take a bomb to Celestial spaceship and destroy it. The NASA has sent astronauts Matt Durgan and Terry Parker to investigate the Celestial ship. 

With the Uni-Mind having departed Olympia, the only Eternal left behind to keep an eye on the Deviants is Sprite. He quickly realises that if Deviants wage war on the Celestials, the fate of the Earth may be decided all too quickly. 

He also realises that he is way over his head in trying to stop the bomb himself. Then he remembers another Eternal who did not join the Uni-Mind. The Forgotten One has been kept isolated for centuries as punishment by Zuras for excessive involvement in human affairs. He recruits him and the Hero goes for one last suicide mission, stopping the bomb. 

After a complex set of events: Durgan and Parker are back on the Eternal spaceship. The Deviants crash to the ocean with the NASA spaceship and drown. Hero stopped the bomb and saved the day. He is left stranded in space but the One Above All deems him "Worthy of the Gods" and retrieves him. 

The high point of the series by most accounts but only the Forgotten One and Sprite get to sign. Every other Eternal has left his/her individuality for the Uni-Mind. So no Ikaris or Makkari. 

14) #14 (August, 1977), features no Celestials. 

The Uni-Mind returns to Earth, the ritual is over and Eternals return to their individual selves. Apparently Margo and Samuel were with them all this time. Unclear if they had entered the Uni-Mind themselves. 

Eternals go their own way. Sersi has invited Ikaris, Makkari, Margo and Samuel back to New York City with her. However the dissolution of the Uni-Mind has spread stray cosmic energies across the globe and they seem to interract with technology in random ways. 

The energies empowers a Hulk robot created in the Maryland Institute of Technology by students a bit obsessed with the Hulk. The robot goes on a Hulk-like rampage and Makkari and Ikaris engage it in battle. Which is still ongoing as the issue ends. 

Ikkaris and Makkari fight the Hulk robot. Not any Deviants. 

15) #15 (September, 1977) features no Celestials, 

It is one prolonged battle between the Hulk robot on one side and Ikaris, Makkari and Sersi on the other. Zuras joins them on the last page. 

While on the streets of New York, random New Yorkers ask Ikaris if "Doctor Doom and Thor" are fighting and if "the Inhumans are coming". He declines to answer and the whereabouts of said characters are not given. 

16) #16 (October, 1977) finishes the battle with the robot Hulk. 

Zuras drains part of his energies. The robot is smart enough to flee while it still can but Zuras sents Ikaris and Makkari to finish it off. Meanwhile he appears on television with Sersi, Margo and Samuel, trying to initiate diplomatic relations with humanity. 

His speech is interrupted. In a desperate attempt to flee, the Hulk robot started digging to the ground. Causing an explosion and uncovering an ancient pit. Going to investigate Zuras and Sersi, find it be to the chamber of Dromedan, a mighty Deviant telepath kept there in suspended animation for ages. The issue ends with Zuras engaging Dromedan in battle. 

Zuras seems to recognise Dromedan and the pit as "fears that lie buried in this old heart". On the other hand the Pit means nothing to Sersi. Zuras explains that Sersi is a child: "Though you've seen ages pass, you are very young within the Eternal context! The shaft below was formed long before you came into being!" 

Which again confirms Zuras to be much older than Sersi. And Dromedan as well by the way. 

17) #17 (November, 1977) , features only Eternals again. 

Dromedan effortlessly defeats Zuras, Ikaris and Makkari. But then Sersi joins the fight and keeps him distracted for quite some time. Until the forgotten Ikaris recovers and ambushes Dromedan. He kills him with an all out assault. 

Zuras complains that he wanted Dromedan alive but Ikaris and Sersi argue his compassion is greater than either his fear or his reasoning. They get to discuss the differences of the Polarian Eternals once again. Meanwhile Druig is pressing Sigmar for information on a powerful weapon which he covets. 

Plenty of battles here. But with only one Deviant, not two. Makkari falls but no one goes out of his/her way to pick him up. 

18) #18 (December, 1977) reveals that the weapon Druig is after is of Celestial origin. 

A flashback reveals the "weapon" to actually be a by-now familiar face, Tiamut the Dreaming Celestial. Druig believes him to be a weapon able to slay a Celestial. He has already chosen a target if he gets the weapon, Ziran the Tester. 

The "weapon" was hidden by the Celestials of the Second Host but Polarian Eternals witnessed the events and know the location. However Druig himself is too young to be among them. Sigmar knows the original location but claims Valkin moved it to another hidespot. Druig is not ready to face his father for information but Sigmar offers him another Eternal in on the secret, Ikaris. 

Druig proceeds to capture Ikaris and intends to torture him for the information. Meanwhile Zuras is trying to discuss the Celestial issue with humans while Sersi and Makkari just want to have a good time. 

No battle for Makkari. Druig for Ikaris. No Deviants. 

19) #19 (January, 1978), has Druig actually get enough information to uncover a Celestial weapon , apparently the weaponry Tiamut wielded while awake. 

Ikaris has to disintegrate Druig to stop him. Which he does, but only a minute too late. The weapon was set off and could cause great destruction. But Ziran intervenes and contains the explosion. 

The remains and energies were retconned taken by the Celestials at some point, probably following the last page. 

No Makkari or Deviants this issue. The series was cancelled here. The Annual is placed in chronology following the last issue though. 

20) "Eternals Annual" #1 (1977) has Zuras assign Thena, Karkas and Ransak on a new mission. 

Someone has been transporting dangerous individuals through time and letting them loose in New York City. He suspects a rogue Deviant, Zakka the Tool-Master, to be responsible. He wants them to investigate and stop the chaos. They do in a mission building some cameradery between them. 

Considered among the high points of the series but no Celestials, Ikaris or Makkari on sight. The Eternals saga continued in the pages of Thor. With Roy Thomas taking over the fates of the cast. 

21) Thor Annual #7 (1978) consists mostly of an extended flashback to the first encounter of Thor and the Eternals, about a thousand years ago or more. 

"Thor first encountered the Polar Eternals before the 3rd Host, when Dromedan briefly seized control of his mind. After regaining control, Thor stayed with the Polar Eternals for a time, and aided them in their work in South America. However, Dromedan was later freed by Druig, and Thor opposed him alongside Ajak, Valkin and Virako. After the battle ceased, the 3rd Host arrived, and Valkin erased Thor's memory of the events, afraid of how Thor might react to the Celestials. Centuries later, Thor regained these memories from Mimir, prophecier to the gods." 

For Summaries of the Thor issues see: http://www.immortalthor.net/thor271-280.html 

22) #281 (March, 1979) is a continuation of the Annual. Thor is deep in thought of what he has learned so far of the Eternals and the Celestials. He decides to discover more and attempts to travel back in time. His destination is the time of the First Host. He in fact misses the way in the time stream and ends up with the Space Phantom in Limbo. 

The tale continues to #282 and involves the Space Phantom, Tempus and Immortus. At the end Mjolnir looses its ability to travel through time. Immortus restores Thor to his own time. 

23) #283 (May, 1979) actually picks up the Eternals/Celestial saga. 

Thor and Odin meet each other in Mexico City. He has several questions to answer, including what his father knows of the Celestials. Odin offers few answers and leaves abruptly upon mention of the Celestials. 

Thor then goes to the Andean Mountains and locates the Celestial Dome. He tries to force his way in with no effects on the structure. Meanwhile Gammenon the Gatherer captures a plane and starts tearing it apart while studying it. 

Thor attempts to rescue the passengers by attacking Gammenon. Not his brightest idea. The Gatherer defeats him with a single blast and then takes the plane for further study in the dome. 

No Eternals here/ 

24) #284 (June, 1979) , features the passengers of the plane. Including one who was not among them when their flight begun. Dr. Donald Blake. Seems Thor decided to seen entry in the Dome in a more subtle way. 

Blake meets Ajac and Dr. Damian. Damians explains him some of the past experiments of the Celestials on terrestrial life forms. Blake informs him of his mission to stop their judgement from ever taking place. Then changes into Thor right in front of Damian. 

Ajak then reveals himself to have heard the entire confrontation. A female passenger reveals herself to be Ereshkigal, a Deviant in disguise. Both of them try to stop Thor with trying to escape. He manages to do so and takes the plane with every passenger but the Deviant along. 

Arishem the Judge, Gammenon the Gatherer and Jemiah the Analyzer are seen within the Dome put either do not notice or do not care of the proceedings. Margo is seen to be still with Ikaris and Sersi in the United States. 

Notably absent: Makkari. 

25) #285 (July, 1979) has Thor take the plane to New York. Damian has given him the adress of Sersi's Loft in the City and Thor goes visiting. (Continuity mistake:Damian has been isolated with the Celestials since "Eternals" #3. He has no contact with his daughter or Ikaris since. He should not even know who Sersi is, much less her adress.) 

Thor goes to the apartment. Only to fight Karkas who thinks Thor is a Deviant there to arrest him. Once Thor manages to convince him that he is no Deviant, Karkas tells his tale. 

The Deviants have abandoned Lemuria for a new City. Thena, Karkas, Ransak, Ikaris and Margo went there for a diplomatic mission. But the truce was over and they were all attacked. Kro took Margo hostage and forced the others to surrender. 

Ransak alone managed to escape. At this moment two statues in the apartment change forms to reveal Sersi and a captive Deviant. Sersi presses him for the location of the Deviant City. 

Ikaris get to fight Deviants. Makkari is nowhere to be seen. 

26) #286 (August, 1979), has Sersi, Thor and Karkas enter the City of Deviants. 

They at first feign defeat but then retaliate and manage to release Ikaris, Margo, Ransak and Thena. The Deviant leaders decide to abandon the City and set an explosion as they flee. Kro was left behind to die. 

The new group of Ikaris, Karkas, Margo, Ransak, Sersi, Thena and Thor decide to head to Olympia. They want to recruit the Eternals against the Celestials. 

Meanwhile Odin has kept close surveilance of Thor. Odin, Sif, Fandral, Hogun and Volstagg witnesses the initial defeat. The other four wanted to go rescue Thor. Odin held them back and assigned them to unrelated missions. 

27) #287 (September, 1979) has the arrival of the group in Olympia. Except Margo who apparently is returned to Denver. 

However their arrival coincides with that of the Forgotten One. He has been appointed emissary of the Celestials of the Eternals. He came to warn them not to interfere with the judgement of the Earth. 

Diplomacy gives way to battle as his fellow Eternals attack him. He drops every opponent and in his rage starts causing damage to the buildings of Olympia. Then Thor rises to face him. Their battle is still ongoing as the One Above All teleports them to the Celestial spaceship. 

On Asgard, Sif is on a mysterious search when a Storm Giant attacks her. Elsewhere Fandral, Hogun and Volstagg contact their own search when aqttacked by Fafnir. 

Ikaris and Makkari are both here. But they get to fight the Forgotten One, not the Deviants. 

28) #288 (October, 1979) continues the battle with the Forgotten One. 

Hero promises to spare Thor if the Asgardian gives an oath of not interfering with the Celestials and their judgement. Thor is even more determined to win this battle. They are pretty evenly matched until Hero tries to lift Mjolnir. The warhammer does not accept this potential wielder. Hero has shifted his attention to the stubborn hammer and the forgotten Thor finds an openning and knocks him out. 

Thor confonts the One Above All with demands of stopping any plans on judgement of the Earth. The Celestial tries to stop Thor by throwing random equipment at him. Which does not actually stop Thor. Then the Celestial confronts Thor with an image from the past. The image of Odin kneeling before Arishem the Judge. 

In Asgard, said High-Father has his own confrontation with Karniilla. Since #275, her lover Balder has been kept in stasis. Mortally wounded in #274, Odin has not allowed him not die. But has also not worked to revive him. Keeping Balder in a state between life and death and hinting it had something to do with preserving Asgard. Karnilla does not convince him to act either. 

Elsewhere Sif fights Skoll. Fafnir seems to be winning his own battle. In Olympia, Zuras decides to form the Uni-Mind again and use it against the Celestials. 

Zuras, Ikaris, Makkari, Thena and Karkas are all seen but do not engage in any combat. 

29) #289 (November, 1979) , Thor reacts to the image by attacking the One Above All. 

He never touches him. The Celestial teleports him back to Olympia. The Forgotten One with him as he has apparently lost favor with the Celestials. 
He was a using a Celestial-created uniform enhancing him before. Without it he is back to normal Eternal levels. Plus a hundicap from that explosion in "Eternals" #13: he is blind. 

Zuras wants to punish him for escaping custody before. But the Forgotten One defends himself and reveals the nature of his mission in #13. Makkari reveals the Eternal responsible to be Sprite. Zuras punishes Hero and Sprite by sentencing to caring for each other. (Having Hero responsible for the immature Eternal and Sprite for the blind one). 

Zuras then turns to Thor with a 24-hour deadline for him to find an alternative solution on the Celestials. When it is over the Eternals will form the Uni-Mind and go to war with their creators. 

Meanwhile Odin is on Olympus, seeking an alliance with Zeus. Karnilla weeps over Balder with Frigga. Frigga is the wife of Odin but not the mother of Thor as clarified here. (Thomas built on the mystery of who the mother of Thor was throughout this run. Revealed to be Gaea in #300-301. ) 

Thor returns to Asgard and tries to enter the city. But he has been in exile since #278. Heimdall tries to follow Odin's orders and prevents the exiled Asgardian from returning home. Other Asgardians join the fight against the renegade. The battle escalates when Sif arrives with the object of her mission, the Destroyer. Her spirit enters the armor and she confronts Thor. Defeating him and throwing him back to Midgard. 

Ikaris, Makkari, Karkas, Ransak, Sersi, Thena are all here but do not get to do much. No battles with Deviants here. 

30) #290 (December, 1979), Thor lands on Earth somewhere in Mexico. 

El Vampiro the Eternal has been facing El Toro Rojo the Deviant in a free wrestling match. But the Deviant has went bersekr and has already grievously wounded his opponent and keeps going on. Thor spends the entire issue fighting him. 

Once defeating the Deviant, Thor heads back to Olympia. 

No other Eternals or Deviants this issue. 

31) #291 (January, 1980), Thor returns to Olympia and offers Zuras no other solution. 

Zuras has the gathered Eternals form the Uni-Mind and heads into space against the One Above All. Thor stays behind and witnesses the arrival of Odin, Zeus and an army of Olympian Gods arrive. 

They have allied against the Eternals and seek to destroy Olympia. The Uni-Mind senses the danger and returns in haste. Then splits to the individual Eternals. Eternals and Gods engage in battle. Thor faces Odin. The senior Asgardian strikes him down and is about to kill his son when the issue ends. 

Elsewhere Brightsword/Carter Dyam, Genii/Jason Kimball and Harvest/Chi Lo, the last recruits of the Young Gods from "Thor" #202-203, same Fandran, Hogun and Volstagg from Fafnir. The three Asgardians reveal they were seeking the youths. 

The Eternals in full combat. Makkari gets to fight Mercury in particular. Ikaris is in the fight also. However no Deviants here but Karkas and Ransak, on the Eternal side of the conflict. 

32) #292 (February, 1980), Odin considers killing Thor. But decides against killing his own son "again". 

Thor is not to displeased with the decision but wonders about the "again" in the sentence. Odin offers an answer in the form of a riddle and then looses interest in the battle and departs. 

Without his ally, Zeus sees no reason to continue the battle. He calls the Olympian Gods off and returns to Olympus. Zuras and Eternals have to tend to their own wounds. 

Seemingly forgotten by everyone else, Thor is deep in thinking. He solves the riddle and the answer is the Eye of Odin. The eye that Odin sacrificed to gain wisdom. He seeks the Eye and questions it on the again comment. 

#293-299 is one long tale, Thomas' expansion of Asgardian mythology. With some of the retcons respected and others rejected by later writers. 

Which leads directly to #300 where the tale ends and the Celestial judgement concludes. I still do not get where Ikaris saving Makkari fits.

			*	*	*

Dec 01, 2007 12:22 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks for all of that, dimadick. 

>>>
"Pg33pn1-FB: the 1970s 
The Third Host of Celestials arrive." 
<<<

This one is part of Ikaris' questionable Flashback, and probably doesn't 'count'. 


>>>
"Pg1pn4(of6)-pg3-FB: the 1970s 
Markarri is attacked by two Deviants, and hes saved by Ikaris. Meanwhile, the Celestials have returned to Earth." 
<<<

>>>
"Pg9pn4(of 4)-FB: the 1970s 
Ikaris picks up Makarri in front of a Celestial." 
<<<

And these two are part of the same scene. I think that came across, but reading back through my original post, I don't think I was too clear on that. 


dimadick wrote:
>>>
23) #283 (May, 1979) actually picks up the Eternals/Celestial saga. 

Thor and Odin meet each other in Mexico City. 
<<<

That rang a bell. When Ikaris and Makkari are fighting a bunch of Deviants in front of some Celestials in E3 1-FB & E3 2-FB, it's on top of a Mayan and/or Aztec temple. 

...I probably should have mentioned that earlier.  


dimadick wrote:
>>>
I still do not get where Ikaris saving Makkari fits.
<<<

Flipping back through the books, it's only implied through association that these FBs are tied to the '1970s.' If it doesn't fit with the Fourth Host, what about one of the others? 


dimadick wrote:
>>>
the First Host of the Celestials arrived on Earth c. 1,000,000 BC. 
<<<

This is the creation, so not here. 


dimadick wrote:
>>>
the Second Host of the Celestials caused the Great Cataclysm. Which places it c. 18,000 BC. 
<<<

This is where the Celestials eat up a bunch of Deviants, right? Probably not here, if that is an Aztec and/or Mayan temple. 


dimadick wrote:
>>>
the Third Host of the Celestials arrived on Earth c. 1000 AD. 
<<<

Here, maybe?


dimadick wrote:
>>>
The Fourth Host of the Eternals finally arrived in "Eternals" vol. 1 #1...
<<<

...in the then current day Marvel Universe. And it doesn't look like it they fit there. 

Does 1,000 AD work? This would be completely new material in this case.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 02, 2007 4:16 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
The Registration Act has been in place long enough for a reality TV show to be made from it. Later issues will have the characters asking What side are you on?, but I dont see how this can be during Civil War. It was published while Civil War was, but maybe theyre just asking if youre legal or illegal. 
<<<

I may not be picking up on all the clues you outlined in your analysis, Fury, but I think that Civil War is the perfect time for this series. Here's how events break down in the calendar: 

11/19 
Registration is made law (CW:FL 2/2) 

11/23 
Registration deadline (CW 2, etc.) 

12/28 
Stark makes his own PSA for registration (IM4 13) 

1/2 
Spidey defects (ASM 535) 

2/3 
Galactus is taken down by Aegis (ANNIHILATION 1) 

2/12 
Galactus is freed (ANNIHILATION 6) 

2/15 
Civil War ends with Cap's surrender (CW 7) 


It seems that ETERNALS can be placed between ASM 535 and ANN 1. This is long enough after the registration deadline for there to be a reality TV show based on it. "Whose side are you on" makes sense because the Civil War is still raging. PSAs are being done at this time for registration. And Galactus is available, not because it's after ANNIHILATION, but because it's before. 

Now there is that problem of Sersi's friend inquiring about the invitees to her party. Could the inclusion of Cap and Spidey in the question be a way of asking if the invited heroes will be registered or unregistered? Does that make sense given the context of the scene? (And, hey, T'Challa invited both sides to his wedding in BP4 18.) Of course, Cap is an option here because he hasn't surrended yet. 

So how does this sound? There is some space in the January calendar for this series. Shall I pencil it in? 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 02, 2007 4:31 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
...at least two years since the last time the Eternals have made an appearance. Since that was New Eternals: Apocalypse Now, published in 2000, I dont think that will be much of a problem. 
<<<

Apocalypse Now? That doesn't ring a bell. As an analysis been done of this comic?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 02, 2007 5:05 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
It seems that ETERNALS can be placed between ASM 535 and ANN 1. This is long enough after the registration deadline for there to be a reality TV show based on it. "Whose side are you on" makes sense because the Civil War is still raging. PSAs are being done at this time for registration. And Galactus is available, not because it's after ANNIHILATION, but because it's before. 
<<<

I didn't realize there was still that much space. That works pretty good! 

I'd suggest that Mr. Fantastic's PSA shown in E3 be placed near Iron Man's, or at least when they were recorded. 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Now there is that problem of Sersi's friend inquiring about the invitees to her party. Could the inclusion of Cap and Spidey in the question be a way of asking if the invited heroes will be registered or unregistered? Does that make sense given the context of the scene? (And, hey, T'Challa invited both sides to his wedding in BP4 18.) Of course, Cap is an option here because he hasn't surrended yet. 
<<<

She just rattled off three super heroes. Paraphrased: 'Guess who's coming?' 'I dunno... Iron Man, Captain America, or Spider-Man?' 'Nah. Just the kids from America's Newest Super Hero.' 'Oh.' It's not really damaging either way, I guess. 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Apocalypse Now? That doesn't ring a bell. As an analysis been done of this comic?
<<<

I'm guessing yes, it's already listed in the Project.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 02, 2007 7:22 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
...at least two years since the last time the Eternals have made an appearance. Since that was New Eternals: Apocalypse Now, published in 2000, I dont think that will be much of a problem. 
<<<

Apocalypse Now? That doesn't ring a bell. As an analysis been done of this comic?
<<<

It's various referred to as "New Eternals: Apocalypse Now" and "Eternals: The New Breed" (the name that it's listed under in the MCP). IIRC, it has the former name on the cover and the latter in the indicia.

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Subject: X-Man Annual '97

Dec 06, 2007 12:05 am 
By Delarsco

So I looked at the Gap page, and even thought it claims X-Man to be completed, this annual is missing. Here is a quick analysis: 
XM '97 
Published: December 1997 
Written by Christopher Golden, Drawn by Ramon Bernado 
Appearances: X-Man/Nate Grey, Dark Beast/ Henry McCoy, Nemesis/Holocaust, Sugarman, Lilandra Narimani, Jahf, High Priest Dar'Bikk, Commander Kai'Tra 
Synopsis: Jahf informs Lilandra that the M'Krann crystal is leaking energy at Earth, so she sends High Priest Dar'Bikk and Commander Kai'Tra to find the source. They hunt down all the refugees from the Age of Apocalypse, and rail about how they are abominations and insults to their faith. X-Man agrees to work with Dark Beast and Nemsis in order to escape, and they even convince Sugarman (who had been cooperating with the Shi'Ar in exchange for clemency) to join them. During the battle, Nate uses his Teke to rip the shard of M'Krann out of Nemesis, destroying it and the M'Krann energy they had been inundated with. Lilandra appears as a hologram to personally pardon them all now that they no longer drain the M'Krann crystal. The AoA refugees go their separate ways, but now Nemesis is able to access the full power of his armor and can follow Nate without being seen visually or with Tepe. 
References: This story was published concurrently with one in part of a larger arc. The nearest arc break is between issues #33 and #34. I am unsure of where the nearest appearance by the other characters was because I don't have all the books of that era, but I don't think any of them were regular cast members in anything at the time.

			*	*	*

Thread 30

Subject: Calendar; Moon Knight Annual 1

Dec 09, 2007 2:48 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Moon Knight Annual #1 
Published: January, 2008 

Appearances: 
Moon Knight, but only in Flashback. Everyone else has never been seen before, and will never be seen again. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1: one night 
Some women meet in an assault victim/rape victim group. One of them talks about her rape experience. 
Pg2-pg3-FB: one night, some time before 
A woman is picked up by the Rapist, and they go back to her place. 
Pg4-pg6-FB: the day after pg3-FB 
The woman wakes up, shes been raped and beaten. She draws a picture of her attacker and starts to show it around. 
Pg7-pg8-FB: some time later 
After looking for her attacker on the internet, she runs into him in a restaurant and beats him up. Hes already with another woman. 
Pg9pn1(of 5): now 
She continues her story. 
Pg9pn2-pg9pn5-FB: two days after (7-8)-FB 
Two police officers approach the woman and show her pictures of her attacker. 
Pg10: now 
Another woman in the group talks about her rape experience. 
Pg11-pg12pn3-FB: one night, some time before 
A woman is picked up by the Rapist, and they go on a date. 
Pg12pn4-FB: the next day 
She gets a call from him, and they set up another date. 
Pg12pn5(of 5): now 
She continues her story. 
Pg13-pg14pn4-FB: the third date, waning crescent moon, one quarter 
The woman is drugged, and the rapist beats and rapes her. 
Pg14pn5-pg14pn6(of 6)-FB: the next day 
She wakes up. 
Pg15-pg19pn3-FB: the following full moon 
The woman jumps off her roof, and shes saved by Moon Knight. 
Pg19pn4(of 5)-pg20: now 
The second woman finishes her story. A third woman tells hers, but she doesnt understand why shes at this meeting. 
Pg21-pg23pn5-FB: full moon, same night as (15-19:3)-FB 
The third woman is picked up by the Rapist and they hit the town. While at a restaurant, the first woman comes in and attacks the Rapist. 
Pg23pn6(of 6): now 
The third woman is still confused. 
Pg24-pg28-FB: same night as (21-23:5)-FB 
The third woman and the Rapist go to another restaurant and hes eventually attacked by Moon Knight. During the fight, the third woman passes out from the drugs the Rapist gave her. 
Pg29pn1-FB: the next day 
The third woman wakes up at her place. 
Pg29pn2(of 3)-pg30pn3(of 5): now 
The third woman finishes her story, and the second woman mentions something she forgot to earlier. 
Pg30pn4-pg34pn1-FB: about a week after 
The second woman reads in the paper that the Rapist is in the hospital, so she goes there and kills him. 
Pg34pn2(of 2): now 
Everyone is shocked by the second womans revelation. 

References: 
The Rapist is the same guy in all of the Flashbacks. 

Jacket and bare tree weather in New York, New York. 

If only by publication order, this goes after issue 13, and before issue 14. 

A quick breakdown: 

MK@ 1 (2-3)-FB: one night 
MK@ 1 (4-6)-FB: the next day 
 
MK@ 1 (11-12:3)-FB: one day 
MK@ 1 (12:4)-FB: the next day 
 
MK@ 1 (13-14:4)-FB: one night, one quarter waning crescent moon 
MK@ 1 (14:5-14:6)-FB the next day 
 
MK@ 1 (15-19:3)-FB: the full moon following (13-14:4) 
MK@ 1 (7-8)-FB ~ (21-23:5)-FB: same night 
MK@ 1 (24-28)-FB: same night 
MK@ 1 (29:1)-FB: next day 
MK@ 1 (9:2-9:5)-FB: the next day 
MK@ 1 (30:4-34:1)-FB: about a week after (15-19:3) 
 
MK@ 1 (1): one night 
MK@ 1 (9:1): same night 
MK@ 1 (10): same night 
MK@ 1 (12:5): same night 
MK@ 1 (19:4-20): same night 
MK@ 1 (23:6): same night 
MK@ 1 (29:2-30:3): same night 
MK@ 1 (34:2): same night

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 09, 2007 2:51 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
MK@ 1 (7-8)-FB ~ (21-23:5)-FB
<<<

Fury, would you please provide a more precise breakdown of these pages, with a notation of exactly which panels show the same content? Thanks much!

Paul B.

			*	*	*



Dec 10, 2007 12:21 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

pg7-FB 
The first woman looks up the Rapist on the internet. 
pg21-pg23pn1-FB 
The third woman is picked up by the Rapist and they hit the town. 
pg8-FB~pg23pn2-pg23pn3-FB 
The first woman sees the Rapist in a restaurant with the third woman, and she beats him up. 
pg23pn5-FB 
The third woman and the Rapist leave the restaurant. 

pg23pn4 is another 'now' panel. Sorry about that! 
The third woman continues her story. 

If you wanted to get really down & dirty: 

pg8pn1-FB~pg23pn2-FB 
The first woman sees the Rapist in a restaurant. 
pg8pn2-FB 
The first woman enters the restaurant. 
pg8pn3-FB~pg23pn3-FB 
The first woman beats up the Rapist. 
pg8pn4-pg8pn5(of 5)-FB 
The first woman is escorted out of the restaurant. 
pg23pn5-FB 
The third woman and the Rapist leave the restaurant.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 10, 2007 7:12 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
If you wanted to get really down & dirty: 
<<<

Oh, you bet. Thanks! 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 31

Subject: Ghost Rider Annual v2 1

Dec 14, 2007 1:33 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Ghost Rider Annual v2 #1 
January, 2008 

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Johnny Blaze), Lucifer, Jesus Christ-FB 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg15pn4 
Lucifer walks into a bar and kills everyone. Everyone that is, except a Heaven/Hell double agent. As Lucifer drives away, he jumps in a new body and follows. 
Pg15pn5(of 5)-pg16pn1-FB 
The double agent is present at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Meanwhile, Lucifer is tortured in Hell. 
Pg16pn2(of 2)-FB: some time after (15:5-16:1)-FB 
The double agent receives orders in Heaven. 
Pg17-pg34: same night as (1-15:4) 
The double agent catches up to Lucifer to find him fighting Ghost Rider. Before Ghost Rider kills the Lucifer fragment, he stabs the double agent. While he dies, Ghost Rider gives him the Penance Stare to reveal what he really is, an angel or a demon. The problem is, the guy doesnt remember, and he dies not knowing what he really is. 

References: 
Its snowy, wherever this is. 

I would place this after Ghost Rider 13 of the current volume, and before issue 14. 14-19 is a continuous arc ending the fragments of Lucifer plot, so this has to go before that. Also, issue 14 has a FlashBack from about two months ago where Ghost Rider gets his big idea to end the fragments of Lucifer plot, so it has to go before the FlashBack. Going just by publication order, this should go after the WWH tie-in issues. So, after GR v? 13, GR @2 1, GR v? 14-FB, GR v? 14. 

Sorry, JLH! I couldnt fall asleep tonight. 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 32

Subject: Wolverine v3 50-55

Jul 26, 2007 3:19 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine v3 #50 
W: Jeph Loeb 
D: Simone Bianchi 
Pub: March, 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Sabretooth, Rogue. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5-FB: A long time ago 
Lupine beasts slaughter each other in a battle royale as a larger one watches from afar. 
Pg6-pg14: now 
Wolverine enters the X-Mansion, chats with Rogue about Sabertooth, then confronts Sabretooth, whos watching the Spice channel on TV & drinking a beer. Wolverine throws him out the window and they fight. 
Pg15-pg19-FB 
Silver Fox! 
Pg20-pg22: now 
Wolverine & Sabretooth continue to fight. 

References: 
Green grass, shrubs, & leaves at the Xavier Institute. All in one night. 

This starts a continuous five-issue story, which ends in Sabretooths death. Therefore, these issues have to be Sabretooths last appearance, placing this after X-Men 199, where he betrays the X-Team hes on. 

Rogue is present, aware that Sabretooth is in the X-Mansion, and she has control of her faculties, placing this either before shes infected over in her book, or after shes cured. Shes still infected as of issue 201, and since this has to occur after 199, this has to be after shes cured, sometime in the future. 

The problem is, Sabretooth is on an X-Team when Logan confronts him here. Rogue is aware of it. Also, hes sitting around drinking beer and watching TV in a chair. Up until he betrayed the team, Sabretooth wasnt allowed to roam free, hes always been shackled. He was getting so bad that they had to put him in a form of suspended animation. So why is he relaxing in a chair with a beer? Maybe he escaped somehow, and Rogue didnt know he was watching TV.(actually, going back and re-reading these issues, that might not be too far off. Sabretooth had help piloting the Blackbird next issue, as pointed out by Wolverine. He probably had helping getting free here, knowing that Wolverine was coming for him) But if this is after hes betrayed the team, why is he even at the Mansion with Rogues knowledge? This makes no sense. 

In any event, these Wolverine issues have to be Sabretooths last appearance. 

Over the next few issues there are historical sequences that remind me of the FlashBacks in the Gehenna Stone Affair arc from Peter David's short run on Wolverine vol2. Like in the GSA, I can't believe that these are intended to actually be Wolverine & Sabretooth, but I'm not so sure about Romulus. 

Wolverine v3 #50/2 
W: Jeph Loeb 
D: Ed McGuinness 
Pub: March, 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12: Canada 
Wolverine wakes up in snowy Canada after having a dream. 

References: 
Wolverines wearing his current uniform. Its snowy in Canada. Thats it. 

Wolverine v3 #51 
W: Jeph Loeb 
D: Simone Bianchi 
Pub: April, 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Sabretooth, Storm. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: Caveman times! 
Lupine beasts slaughter some cavemen, one catches on fire, and another puts him out in a nearby stream. 
Pg6-pg22: now 
Wolverine wakes up chained to the Blackbird jet. He frees himself and gets intot he cockpit and fights the piloting Sabretooth. The Blackbird crashes and explodes, and Wolverine and Sabretooth continue to fight until Storm arrives and stops them with a lightning bolt. 

References: 
Same night as last issue, all in one night. 

Theres a bit where Wolverine remembers when Sabretooth attacked Psylocke from Uncanny 320-something, but he mentions that the dialogue is off. Since this is a memory with the details noted as being wrong, I would say this does not qualify as a proper FlashBack, so no new information here. 

Wolverine v3 #52 
W: Jeph Loeb 
D: Simone Bianchi 
Pub: May, 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Sabretooth, Storm, Black Panther, Romulus-FB 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: centuries ago 
Lupine/humanesque creatures ride on armored elephant beasts. After a fight, a larger Lupine/humanesque creature makes one kill the other. 
Pg6-pg16: day after last issue 
Sabretooth wakes up to find himself chained up in Wakanda. As Storm begins to tell Wolverine of a discovery Wakandan archeologists have made, Sabretooth breaks free and runs off, so the Black Panther follows him. Storm takes Wolverine and they follow, and Wolverine cuts off Sabretooths hand before he can kill the Black Panther. 
Pg17-pg20-FB: decades ago, Japan 
Wolverine has been picked up be the Hand, and has a chat with Romulus. Hes sent out to find Sabretooth, and they fight. 
Pg21-pg22: now 
Black Panther and Storm show Wolverine what they were going to tell him about earlier; a bunch of elephant/humanesque skeletons. 

References: 
Storm and Black Panther are already in Wakanda, and the discovery was made a few days ago. Its not stated if theyre living in Wakanda or the Baxter Building. They could have already moved back from the Baxter Building, or they could be visiting after hearing of the discovery. All kinds of options here. 

The FlashBack is the first time Logan ever heard of Creed, so it should go before the Silver Fox FlashBacks, where he already knew of him. Its Romulus he talking with, because his scent is masked with oils & stuff. 

Wolverine v3 #53 
W: Jeph Loeb 
D: Simone Bianchi 
Pub: June, 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Sabretooth, Storm, Black Panther, Wild Child, Sasquatch(Langowski), Wolfsbane, Feral, Thornn 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: Roman times 
Gladiators fight in the Colosseum. 
Pg6-pg17: same day as last issue 
Wolverine chats with Black Panther and Storm about genetics and evolution. Later, Sabretooth escapes again. Wolverine goes to find him but hes attacked and beaten by Wild Child. 
Pg18-pg19-FB: decades ago, Japan, continued from last issues FB 
Logan & Creed fight, but before Logan can kill him, hes stopped by Romulus. 
Pg20-pg22: two days after pg17 
Wolverine wakes up to find Sasquatch, Wolfsbane, Feral, & Thornn waiting for him. 

References: 
Feral & Thornn appear here, but as revealed in issue 55-FB, they no longer have their mutant powers, only their appearances. So yay, they werent re-powered after M-Day. 

Wolverine v3 #54 
W: Jeph Loeb 
D: Simone Bianchi 
Pub: July, 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Sabretooth, Wild Child, Sasquatch(Langowski), Wolfsbane, Feral, Thornn, Romulus-FB 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5-FB: Winter 1942, Italian Alps 
Captain America and Logan battle Nazi troops in the Italian Alps. Logan attacks the CO, and it turns out to be Wild Child. After Wild Child sets off a grenade in Logans face, Romulus makes him forget the battle. 
Pg6-pg10pn1: same day as end of last issue 
Wolverine & the Lupines travel through Canada to the Weapon X facility. Once there, they spilt up to look for Sabretooth, and Sasquatch is attacked by Wild Child. 
Pg10pn2, pg10pn4-FB: Weapon X 
Sabretooth stands behind the Professor, Logan, Weapon X, is unseen in his tube. 
Pg10pn3, pg10pn5(of 6)-pg16: now 
Wolverine, joined by Feral, finds Sabretooth suspended in a tube. Sabretooth breaks free and attacks. 
Pg17-pg19-FB: continued from pg10pn4 
Sabretooth chats with the Professor, and theyre joined by Romulus. 
Pg20-pg22: now 
Wolverine wakes up and finds Sasquatch, Wolfsbane, and Thornn all beaten. He then finds Sabretooth eating Feral. 

References: 
Apparently, Wild Child is a badass. Also apparently, Romulus was behind Wolverines adamantium process. 

Wolverine v3 #55 
W: Jeph Loeb 
D: Simone Bianchi 
Pub: September, 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Sabretooth, Cyclops, Emma Frost, Wild Child, Sasquatch(Langowski )-BTS, Wolfsbane, Ferals corpse, Thornn, Romulus 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6: day after last issue 
Wolverine retrieves the Muramasa Blade from Cyclops & Emma Frost. 
Pg7-pg9-FB: same night as last issue 
Wolverine & the Lupines take Ferals corpse and leave. Romulus & Wild Child watch as the plane takes off. 
Pg10-pg23: day after pg6 
Wolverine waits for Sabretooth in Canada. When he arrives, Wolverine decapitates him with the Muramasa Blade. Afterwards, Wild Child appears and lets Wolverine know that Romulus is pleased that hes finally killed Sabretooth, and Romulus watches from afar. 

References: 
So Sabretooth is dead. 

Wild Child says that all of the historic dreams Wolverines been having are information that Romulus wants him to know. Are they saying that Romulus was present in all of those? That Romulus is millions of years old? 

Wolverines in costume and in Canada at the end of this issue. Id say after this is a good spot for the second story in issue 50 to go. Also, the Muramasa Blade appears here, so it has to go after he gives it to Cyclops over in Wolverine: Origins. Also, this is where Wolverine finds out that Romulus is behind a lot of things in his life. So for Wolverines books, Id say were looking at W: O 12-15,(finishing up that plot) then W3 50-55,(going after Sabretooth) then W3 50/2,(Waking up in Canada) then W: O @1.(Verifying Romulus behind some more stuff) 

Some placement suggestions: 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
... 
CA:SL2 4 
TRUTH 4-BTS (09/42) 
CA5 5-FB (11/42) 
*W3 54-FB (1942) 
CA: ME (01/07/43) 
CABT-BTS 
... 

WILD CHILD/KYLE GIBNEY 
*W3 54-FB (1942) 
AF 117-FB 
 

SABRETOOTH/VICTOR CREED 
W: O 14-FB 
*W3 52-FB 
*W3 53-FB 
W3 50 (15-16)-FB 
W: O 5 (10:3)-FB 
W: O 5 (12:2-12:3)-FB 
W3 50 (18-19)-FB 
W: O 5 (12:4)-FB 
UX 213-FB-BTS 
W: O 5 (12:5)-FB 
W: O 5 (9)-FB 
W: O 5 (13)-FB 
XU 3-FB 
SABRE 2-FB 
W2 61 (12:4-14)-FB 
SABRE 3-FB 
W2 68-FB (late 68) 
X 5 (10:1-10:3)-FB 
W: O 8 (16:1-16:4)-FB 
X 7 (3:2-3:5)-FB 
W: O 8 (17:2-19)-FB 
X 5 (18-19:3)-FB 
W: O 8 (20:3-20:4)-FB 
X 6 (5-6)-FB 
X 7 (6)-FB 
W2 60-FB 
W2 61-FB 
X 6 (14)-FB 
S&M 1-FB 
S&M 2-FB 
S&M 3-FB 
*W3 54-FB 
W2 -1 
L: SS 
W: O @1-FB 
W2 126-FB-BTS 
X 33-FB 
CX 10/2 
{IF 14} 
 

WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT 
W: E 4 (9-13)-FB 
O 1 
O 2 
O 3 
O 4 
O 5 
O 6 
W: O 15 (7:1)-FB 
M/CP 93-FB 
M/CP 94 
M/CP 95 
M/CP 96 
M/CP 97 
M/CP 98-FB 
W: O 15 (8-10)-FB (1912) 
W: O 12 (10-11)-FB 
W: O 15 (13:1)-FB 
W2 113-FB 
W2 126 (8)-FB 
W: O @1-FB (1932) 
*W3 52-FB 
*W3 53-FB 
W2 5-FB 
UX 257-FB 
BLADE3 5-FB 
X: TF 2 (1936) 
X: TF 3 (1936) 
L: PW (1-9) 
W2 106-FB 
UX 268-FB (08/41) 
W3 32 (05/42) 
*W3 54 (1-5)-FB (1942) 
IHM: MMH 1-FB (1943) 
W2 34 (8:2-8:3)-FB, (13:3-14)-FB, (21)-FB (06/06/44) 
W2 78-FB (06/06/44) 
 

I'm working on the Weapon X FlashBack seen here, and the ones seen earlier in Way's Wolverine: Regular run, so look for that soon. 

I'm also working on a chronology for Romulus, but I'd like to get a few people's thoughts on the 'historical dreams.' Is that Romulus over millions of years, overseeing various Lupine creatures fight each other? Or have there been various 'Romulus'' overseeing things over millions of years? Thoughts?

Last edited by Col_Fury on Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total. 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jul 26, 2007 7:09 pm 
By Jason Doty

I think the issues of X-Men are going to have to be intertwined with this Wolverine arc for this to work chronologically. I don't believe this is going to be the case of one arc, before the other, and will also have to include issues of Cable & Deadpool.

			*	*	*

Jul 26, 2007 11:54 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I went back and re-read X-Men 197-200, and Sabretooth sorta/kinda betrays his X-Team. 

He'd been put into suspended animation by his teammates, and eventually frees himself... during a big fight on Providence Island. Once he gets free, he locks the other X-Men out of the Conquistador. Cable then takes control of it and crashes it into the Big Villain. No more Sabretooth after that. 

During this fight, Rogue has been infected and is comatose. She wakes up and absorbs eight billion minds. Directly after the fight she & her team go to her old house where they inform Cyclops that she's absorbed eight billion minds. While they're gathering their thoughts, the Astonishing team(including Wolverine) arrives, to see just how bad Rogue is, and then they're attacked by the Marauders. 

I'm really not seeing a slot for Rogue's team to go back to the Mansion, regroup with Sabretooth so he can watch the Spice Channel, and for Wolverine to show up and kill him over a few days. Then for Rogue's team to go to her old house, and then tell the Astonishing team that she's absorbed eight billion minds. 

W3 50-55 must take place after X-Men 199. If that's the case, and since X-Men 199 is directly continued into the next four issue arc, W3 50-55 most likely occurs after X-Men 203. If Rogue is even healed by then. Possibly further into the future.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jul 27, 2007 7:22 am 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
I'm really not seeing a slot for Rogue's team to go back to the Mansion, regroup with Sabretooth so he can watch the Spice Channel, and for Wolverine to show up and kill him over a few days. Then for Rogue's team to go to her old house, and then tell the Astonishing team that she's absorbed eight billion minds. 
<<<

There's not only no slot, it's actively impossible (did no-one who reads X-Men read Cable/Deadpool #40-42?). The X-team depart, Sabretooth kills Black Box, Domino's in a standoff with Sabretooth over Irene Merryweather, Deadpool comes in and shoots the hell out of Creed until he runs out of bullets, then starts slashing at him. Then Cable comes in and chucks Sabretooth a hundred miles in a random direction so that he lands in the ocean in the middle of nowhere.

			*	*	*

Jul 27, 2007 2:12 pm 
By Jason Doty

I'm thinking that the Wolverine arc starts before Rogue's team leaves the mansion, and the part of the Wolverine issues that have him going to Canada with Sasquatch come after the X-Men/Cable & Deadpool arc. 

In the first part of the Wolverine arc, Storm & Black Panther are still in Wakanda, so before Civil War. The later issues have to be after Civil War because Sasquatch is back in with the Canadian government. 

I think we need to find a gap in the Wolverine arc to accomidate the X-Men/Cable & Deadpool arc. Or we might have to declare the Sabretooth in X-Men is a clone sent by the Marauders, like all the others that have recently returned.

			*	*	*

Jul 27, 2007 2:41 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Jason Doty wrote:
>>>
I think we need to find a gap in the Wolverine arc to accomidate the X-Men/Cable & Deadpool arc. Or we might have to declare the Sabretooth in X-Men is a clone sent by the Marauders, like all the others that have recently returned.
<<<

Wasn't it established that Sinister can't make a viable Sabretooth clone?

			*	*	*

Jul 27, 2007 2:49 pm 
By jephyork
Director

What's stopping Storm and Black Panther from going BACK to Wakanda after their current FF stint? In fact, I think solicits for upcoming BP4 issues suggest that they *do*... 

And at this point, the finality of the story indicates that this was NOT a Sabretooth clone. (Even if one COULD be made.) 

I'm against breaking up the arc unless major changes to Rogue's status quo in the current X-Men arc make it utterly impossible to place her appearance in W3 #50 after X #203. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jul 27, 2007 4:36 pm 
By Jason Doty

It's not Rogue whose the problem. Sabretooth betrays the X-Men in the X-Men/Cable & Deadpool arc and is no longer with that team. The begining of the Wolverine arc has to come before the X-Men leave Xavier's in the flying boat. I can't see how we are not going to put a break in his comic to accomidate both stories.

			*	*	*

Jul 27, 2007 6:41 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Who's to say what Sabretooth did on Providence? We know that he killed Black Box, but what characters do? 

Cable threw him out... but he'd dead at the moment. Deadpool shot him up... but Deadpool's crazy. Domino was debriefed by SHIELD for three weeks, then she was drunk for three more weeks after that. Irene's the only one who could blab on him, but did anyone bother asking her? 

I think it's possible that once Sabretooth found land he made his way back to the X-Mansion. When confronted about locking his teammates out of the Conquistador, which is most likely all they know about, he could say "Hey, you guys froze me. I was pissed." Did they really expect anything less from him anyway? 

I'm with Jeph here, I'm against trying to find a spot for a gap in here that isn't intended to be. W3 50-55 needs to go after X-Men 203, unless Rogue has a new status quo that won't allow it. The good thing with her appearance in W3 50, is she isn't really doing anything besides walking down the hall. She could be powerless for all we know. And putting a break between Logan waking up surrounded by Lupine characters... and then weeks later re-grouping with them to go to Canada? Meh. 

As for Storm, it isn't stated that she's living in Wakanda at the moment, she's just there. She mentioned that a discovery was made recently, it's possible that they were visiting because of that discovery, giving us the wiggle room if we need it. 

As for Sabretooth, yeah. I want to say X-Men 30-something, if I remember right, shows that his healing factor screws up the cloning process.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jul 27, 2007 7:13 pm 
By Somebody
Director

There was still a full ferry of people there, including Prester John, when the explanations were made. Plus, Providence was in the South Pacific, with Australia apparently the closest major landmass, and wasn't Sabretooth trying to get away from the X-Men? And why wasn't he locked up? 

Frankly, the arc's enough of a clusterfrak that I would gleefully knock a hole in the middle. 

And Rogue's apparently not going to be nailed down until the end of X 207, well into Messiah CompleX: 

Mike Carey wrote:
>>>
In some ways, yeah; but please bear in mind, Rogue is only partway through a long and harrowing journey. By the time we get to #207 and the end of the crossover, she'll be in a different place and a lot of things we've been throwing up into the air will be more clearly defined.
<<<

			*	*	*

Jul 28, 2007 3:18 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Weapon X FlashBacks in W3 38! 

W3 38 (2)-FB 
Logan, connected to a table by cables & tubing, pins sticking out of him. Above him we see his dream/image of his own skull with spikes sticking out of it saying What have you done to me?! 
(this actually works pretty good between pgs 4 & 5 of M/CP 76, where Logan is strapped to a table, and we see his dream/image on monitors above him saying What have you done to me?!) 
W3 38 (4)-FB 
Logan, naked, looking at the claws sticking out of his hands, confused. Tubing & pins are still sticking out of him. A dead body is next to him. 
(Logan seems to be discovering his claws here. Hes still in the compound, and he still has some tubing sticking out of him, so Ill suggest that this goes right before his real rampage, but before he comes across the Native, where hes already running around, and still has some tubing sticking out of him) 
W3 38 (6)-FB 
Logan claws his way through a door, angry. 
(this seems to be more shots of Logan clawing his way to Prof. Thorton, as shown in M/CP 84, and fits pretty nicely between pg19pn1 & pg19pn2) 
W3 38 (9:2)-FB 
Logan on a table, pins sticking out of him, screaming. 
(I think this fits nicely just after W3 38 (2)-FB, and just before M/CP 76 (5-8)) 
W3 38 (10:1)-FB 
Logan floating in a tube, shaved head, during the adamantium bonding process. 
(Logan looks to be in almost the same position as he is in M/CP 73 pg4pn4, but from a different angle, so Ill suggest placing this right before that) 

Some placement suggestions! 

THORTON, PROF. 
 
M/CP 73 (4:4-8:8) 
M/CP 74-FB 
W:E 3 (4:1)-FB 
*W3 54 (10:2)-FB 
*W3 54 (10:4)-FB 
*W3 54 (17-19)-FB 
M/CP 74 
M/CP 75 
 

WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT 
 
UTSM -1 
M/CP 72 
WX2 23 (5-8) 
M/CP 73 (1-2)-FB 
W2 48 (8-9)-FB 
M/CP 73 (3-4)-FB 
M/CP 73 (1-2) 
W:E 1 (15)-FB-OP 
M/CP 73 (3-4:3) 
BUG 
*W3 38 (10:1)-FB 
M/CP 73 (4:4-8:8) 
M/CP 74-FB 
W:E 3 (4:1)-FB 
*W3 54 (10:2)-FB-OP 
*W3 54 (10:4)-FB-OP 
*W3 54 (17-19)-FB-OP 
M/CP 74 
M/CP 75-FB 
M/CP 75 
M/CP 76 (1-4) 
*W3 38 (2)-FB 
*W3 38 (9:2)-FB 
M/CP 76 (5-8) 
W:E 3 (8-9)-FB 
W:E 4 (6)-FB-BTS 
M/CP 77 
M/CP 78 (1-3) 
X 130-FB 
M/CP 78 (4-8) 
W2 49 (17-18)-FB 
W2 63-FB 
M/CP 79 (1-6:3) 
WX2 24-FB 
WX2 25-FB 
M/CP 79 (6:4-8:4) 
M/CP 80 (1-3:2) 
W2 49 (2-4)-FB 
M/CP 80 (3:3-5:3) 
W2 48 (11-12:2)-FB 
M/CP 80 (5:4-6:1) 
W2 48 (12:3-12:6)-FB 
M/CP 80 (6:2-7:2) 
W2 48 (13)-FB 
M/CP 80 (7:3-8:5) 
M/CP 81 
M/CP 82 
M/CP 83 
M/CP 84 (1-19:1) 
*W3 38 (6)-FB 
M/CP 84 (19:2-19:5) 
*W3 38 (4)-FB 
W3 14-FB 
X-23 1 
W2 166-FB 
M/CP 84 (20-24) 
W2 34 (5:3)-FB, (18:4-18:5)-FB, (5:4-5:5)-FB 
AF 33 (14:1-14:2)-FB 
AF 2 -1 (9:4-9:5)-FB 
AF 33 (14:3-14:6)-FB 
 

Up next relatively soon a chronology for Romulus!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jul 28, 2007 9:19 am 
By jephyork
Director

Most of these, I think, can be written off as "preexisting material" -- in which case they wouldn't need to be added to the MCP. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jul 29, 2007 7:53 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Finally: 

ROMULUS 
W3 50-FB 
W3 51-FB 
W3 52 (1-5)-FB 
W3 53 (1-5)-FB 
W: O 15 (12)-FB-BTS 
W: O @1-FB-BTS 
W3 52 (17-20)-FB 
W3 53 (19-20)-FB 
W3 54 (1-5)-FB (1942) 
W3 40-FB-BTS 
W: O 5 (7)-FB 
W: O 9-FB-BTS 
W: O 5 (9)-FB 
W: O 5 (13-14)-FB-BTS 
W: O 15 (14:3)-FB 
W3 54 (17-19)-FB 
W: O 2-VO 
W: O 3-BTS 
W: O 12-BTS 
W: O 15-BTS 
W3 51-BTS 
W3 55-FB 
W3 55 
W: O @1-BTS 

And for fun: 

DAKEN 
W: O 5-FB 
W: O 15-FB 
W: O 4-BTS 
W: O 6 
W: O 8 
W: O 11 (14:7)-FB 
W: O 11 (13)-FB 
W: O 10 
W: O 11 
W: O 12 
W: O 13 
W: O 14 
W: O 15 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
And Rogue's apparently not going to be nailed down until the end of X 207
<<<

The solicit for X-Men 204 promises the 'fate of Rogue' while the team licks it's wounds, and at least she's looking healthier on the cover than she has recently. I guess we'll find out in October... 

Also in the solicits, I'm getting nervous about the upcoming Wolverine: Origins arc. The cover for issue 18 shows WWII Cap & Bucky, fighting alongside Wolverine & Nick Fury against the emerging menace HYDRA... but Nick's wearing an eyepatch. Which he didn't start wearing until after Cap & Bucky were 'dead.' Hrmn. 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jul 30, 2007 5:59 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

...or maybe the Sabretooth killed in W3 was a Skrull... 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Aug 06, 2007 2:06 am 
By dubj1979

Or maybe Wolvie is a skrull and was replaced way back in the "Enemy of the State" arc along with Electra when he was "missing". So he really doesn't know about his past and this Wolvie-Skrull is just tricking us all.

			*	*	*

Dec 09, 2007 3:17 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Now that we're into Messiah CompleX, I really can't see Sabretooth sneaking into the Mansion for a beer. One, everyone knows and is talking about him betraying the team. Two, the mansion is destroyed. So, we're going to have to knock a big gaping hole in this arc. 

The only spot that I can see is between issues 51 & 52. 

W3 50-51: Wolverine confronts Sabretooth, they fight and end up near Wakanda. Storms stops them. 

-BTS- Storm sends Sabretooth back to the X-Mansion. 

X-Men 199-203(well, most of it, anyway): Sabretooth betrays the team and is shot into the ocean. 

-BTS- Sabretooth is found by someone, and is sent to Wakanda to be held. Storm & Black Panther contact Wolverine to tell him they have Sabretooth, and that they found some humanoid elephant remains. 

W3 52-55, W3 50/2: Wolverine & Sabretooth fight, and Sabretooth dies. 

Various other comics, and eventually Messiah CompleX. 

Thoughts?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 09, 2007 9:33 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Coincidentally, I've just gotten around to tackling this dilemma, so I appreciate your efforts to make sense of this continuity blunder, Fury. 

If we're talking about the same Sabretooth in W3 and X, then I suppose your theory could work, although it is very awkward (as continuity corrections are apt to be these days). 

Because the Panther and Storm are in Wakanda in both segments of this story arc... 
Perhaps W3 50-51 occur during Civil War, between the end of T'Challa's and Ororo's honeymoon tour and their move into the Wakandan Embassy in New York. 
And perhaps W3 52-55 occur after T'Challa and Ororo leave the FF in FF 550 (and after WWH, since the couple is still in New York then). 

I'm also wondering if the Sabretooth who was decapitated in W3 was "Earth-A Creed" (not a Skrull, because if it were, the Elektra Skrull would have been no surprise) and Logan made this discovery BTS, so no one's surprised the real Creed is in the story arc in X-MEN. This theory would certainly take the wind out of that whole W3 50-55 story arc, wouldn't it? Maybe we'll get an answer when (not if) Sabretooth shows up again. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 10, 2007 12:09 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

The word on the street is that the next Wolverine arc (62-65) is an epilogue to Messiah CompleX. So in any event, W3 55 has to finish well before that, to allow for W3 56,(were he's been in a pit for 6 weeks or so) and the Annual, and for W3 57-61, where Wolverine dies, and he's a member of the renegade Avengers.(Strange & Stark appear) 

So, if W3 52-55(& 50/2) occur after WWH, does that leave space for all of those issues pre-Messiah CompleX? 

If not, I don't see any reason why Storm & Black Panther can't make a visit home while they're staying in the Baxter Building. If their scientists found some neat stuff, they'd want to check it out, right?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 10, 2007 7:15 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
So, if W3 52-55(& 50/2) occur after WWH, does that leave space for all of those issues pre-Messiah CompleX? 
<<<

I don't see why not. The calendar placement of Messiah Complex is open-ended right now. I think it can be pushed as far as we need it to go.Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 11, 2007 1:11 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
The calendar placement of Messiah Complex is open-ended right now. I think it can be pushed as far as we need it to go.
<<<

I have a feeling that Messiah CompleX is going to end up being pre-Secret Invasion. And if Secret Invasion follows closely on the heels of Illuminati 5, Messiah CompleX may also be pre-Illuminati 5. Call it a hunch.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 11, 2007 9:46 am 
By Somebody
Director

Am I the only one who's happy to smash this arc into little teeny bits?  

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
I'm also wondering if the Sabretooth who was decapitated in W3 was "Earth-A Creed" (not a Skrull, because if it were, the Elektra Skrull would have been no surprise) and Logan made this discovery BTS, so no one's surprised the real Creed is in the story arc in X-MEN. This theory would certainly take the wind out of that whole W3 50-55 story arc, wouldn't it? Maybe we'll get an answer when (not if) Sabretooth shows up again. 
<<<

Or it could be a Space Phantom...

			*	*	*

Dec 11, 2007 8:25 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
I have a feeling that Messiah CompleX is going to end up being pre-Secret Invasion. And if Secret Invasion follows closely on the heels of Illuminati 5, Messiah CompleX may also be pre-Illuminati 5. 
<<<

If that turns out to be the case, then Stark/SHIELD really sat on that Elektra Skrull for a while! WWH, then W3 52-55, then W3 50/2, then W:O@ 1, then W:O 16-18, then the six-week gap, then the two-week span of W3 56, then W@ 1, then W3 57-61, then NX 42, then Messiah CompleX, then NA:I2 5? (Did I get that sequence right?) Yeah... 

And don't forget Logan's other post-WWH appearances -- SUBM3 2-3 and P:R 3, which need to fit into the above chronology somewhere. 

All right, unless anyone has a better solution, I'm going to drive a big gaping wedge between W3 51 and 52. Question: in W3 51, does the Blackbird indeed crash in Wakanda, or is that only determined in W3 52? If the latter, then could that we say that the crash happens, say, close to New York?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 11, 2007 9:03 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
If that turns out to be the case, then Stark/SHIELD really sat on that Elektra Skrull for a while! WWH, then W3 52-55, then W3 50/2, then W:O@ 1, then W:O 16-18, then the six-week gap, then the two-week span of W3 56, then W@ 1, then W3 57-61, then NX 42, then Messiah CompleX, then NA:I2 5? (Did I get that sequence right?) Yeah...
<<<

Oh, just wait - I was scanning over the Giant-Size Astonishing X-Men cover, and spotted Pixie in her "new" original-New Mutants-style costume near the back, below Nightcrawler's first "bamf", to go with Angel's MCX reversion to his Neal Adams suit. I'm beginning to believe the "AX3 13-24+GSAX 1 happens somewhere between X 203 and MCX" rumour...

			*	*	*

Dec 12, 2007 12:57 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Would it help things if the remainder of this Wolverine arc was before WWH? Could we put W3 50-51 just before X 194, and W3 52-55, 50/2 just after X 203, and before WWH? 

It's mentioned at the tail end of W3 51 that they're in a desert, just before Storm attacks. But honestly, I'd say ignore it. New York works for me. 

And yes, Astonishing 13-24 & GSAX looks like it's going to end up post-X 203 & pre-Messiah CompleX. Also, pre-Secret Invasion.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 12, 2007 2:16 am 
By JD

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
And yes, Astonishing 13-24 & GSAX looks like it's going to end up post-X 203 & pre-Messiah CompleX.
<<<

Except the same cover shows an able-bodied Cannonball. Oops.

			*	*	*

Dec 12, 2007 3:14 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

*Clicks on link* 

Hey, you're right. It also shows the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, and Spider-Man in his Red & Blues. Hmmnn...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 12, 2007 6:47 am 
By JD

On the other hand, the cover may have continuity errors that will be fixed in the interior pages. Cf. WWH:X 3, where the cover showed Rogue even though she was nowhere inside.

			*	*	*

Dec 12, 2007 6:50 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

So GSASTONX 1 should occur during the short time between NX 41 and 42? And Sam's depiction on the cover does not reflect the story inside...right? 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 15, 2007 9:35 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

OK. I ended up placing a month-long gap between W3 51 and 52. Here's how it goes...I'm not sure this first part works since I don't know the dialog in W3 50 and I'm assuming there's no sign of the Conquistador at the Institute in W3 50-51. 

Creed arrives at the Xavier Institute and arrogantly makes himself comfy to cover his current vulnerability. That night, Logan arrives at the Institute (sometime after A4 37) and discusses Creed's arrival with Rogue. Logan and Creed fight and Creed inexplicably decides to take Logan on a joyride on the Blackbird. The X-Men alert Storm, who is in New York as part of the FF. She intercepts the Blackbird and Creed is apprehended. This stunt does little to garner trust among the X-Men and Creed is chained up at the Institute. The next day, Perro, Serefina, Northstar, and Aurora attack the Institute, as seen in X 189 (19-22). This leads right into X 190, where we see Creed chained up. The Primary Infection and Red Data story arcs follow directly from there, and we have the big X-Men/Cable & Deadpool crossover. Creed is ejected from Providence in C&DP 41. 

Then Reed and Sue return in FF 547-550, they appear in SILWAR 1, then World War Hulk happens in short order. After the war, T'Challa and Ororo move out of the Baxter Building and return to Wakanda. 

Creed somehow ends up in Wakanda (fill in your BTS explanation here). He encounters T'Challa and Ororo here and the couple defeat and incarcerate him. Ororo calls Logan, who hightails it to Wakanda to finish what they started a month before in W3 50-51. I place Rahne in W3 53 after XF3 24, so that puts this arc a few weeks after WWH on the calendar. 

It's awkward, but does this work?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 33

Subject: Spider-Man/Red Sonja 1-5

Dec 13, 2007 12:35 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Spider-Man/Red Sonja #1(of 5) 
October, 2007 

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Mary Jane Watson-Parker, J Jonah Jameson, Robbie Robertson, Kulan Gath, Red Sonja/Mary Jane 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg23 
While he beats up some burglars Spider-Man chats with Mary Jane on the phone. Meanwhile, a senator goes to a museum and sees a necklace. When he puts it on hes possessed by Kulan Gath, who turns the city medieval. Everyone is affected but Spider-Man. As he makes his way to the museum, Kulan Gath, remembering the last time he was in this era Red Sonja bonded with Mary Jane, calls Mary Jane to kill Spider-Man. Shes bonded with Red Sonja through her sword just as Spider-Man finds her. 

References: 
The plot of M/TU 79 is mentioned, setting this in the 616. 

Peter & Mary Jane are married, Peter works for the Daily Bugle, and Mary Jane is a stage actress. Also, the intro page says this takes place before Civil War. 

Its a snowy night in New York. 

Spider-Man/Red Sonja #2(of 5) 
November, 2007 

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Red Sonja/Mary Jane, Venom/Eddie Brock, J Jonah Jameson, Robbie Robertson, Vermin, Kulan Gath 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: same night as last issue 
As Kulan Gath changes the city, Venom/Eddie Brock is hit by the Wave. Elsewhere, Red Sonja fights Spider-Man. Just as he starts to calm her down, Venom attacks. Meanwhile, Kulan Gath and Jonah chat while Robbie saves a kid from Vermin. Spider-Man and Red Sonja escape from Venom, but Spider-Man is taken away by a group of Kulan Gaths men. 

References: 
Eddie Brock is still Venom ,placing this before Marvel Knights Spider-Man 1. 

Spider-Man/Red Sonja #3(of 5) 
December, 2007 

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Red Sonja/Mary Jane, Venom/Eddie Brock, Robbie Robertson, Vermin, Hobgoblin, Scorpion, Lizard, Kulan Gath 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: same night as last issue 
Venom reports to Kulan Gath, who attacks him for his symbiote. Meanwhile, Spider-Man wakes up in a prison and sees Roobbie. Elsewhere, Red Sonja assembles an army, and they free Spider-Man during their attack. While Kulan Gath steals the symbiote, Red Sonja and Spider-Man defeat Vermin. The theyre attacked by the Lizard, the Scorpion, and the Hobgoblin. 

References: 
I guess this would be the Kingsley Hobgoblin 

Spider-Man/Red Sonja #4(of 5) 
January, 2008 

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Red Sonja/Mary Jane, Venom(just the symbiote, no Brock), Robbie Robertson, Vermin, Hobgoblin, Scorpion, Lizard, Kulan Gath 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: same night as last issue 
Spider-Man and Red Sonja fight the villains, and Hobgoblin grabs Red Sonja and flies away. They pass through the energy barrier and Hobgoblin reverts to his normal self. Meanwhile, Kulan Gath, bonded with the Venom Symbiote, attacks and captures Spider-Man. Meanwhile, Red Sonja starts to remember some of Mary Janes memories while she fights Hobgoblin. After she defeats him shes shot by the police. 

References: 
Theres a montage of Mary Janes memories, but theyre nothing specific: a bunch of images of her and Peter, and of Spider-Man fighting bad guys. 

When Hobgoblin reverts to normal, he has the Demogoblin face. Did Kingsley get a new mask? 

Spider-Man/Red Sonja #5(of 5) 
February, 2008 

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Red Sonja/Mary Jane, Venom/Eddie Brock, J Jonah Jameson, Robbie Robertson, Kulan Gath 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg20: same night as last issue 
Kulan Gath has strung Spider-Man up in a tree. He expands the energy wave to transform more of New York, which covers where Red Sonja is. The policemen around her turn into his men, and they take her to Kulan Gath. As hes about to kill them both, Eddie Brock attacks to get his symbiote back. Red Sonja breaks free and destroys Kulan Gaths necklace, turning New York back to normal. 
Pg21: Hyboria 
Red Sonja wakes up and swears revenge on Kulan Gath. 
Pg22: the day after pg20 
Peter and Mary Jane get some Chinese food. 

References: 
Everythings back to normal, and only Spider-Man remembers what happened. Surprise! 

So were looking at pre-Civil War, and pre-Marvel Knights Spider-Man, if thats the Kingsley Hobgoblin. If its the Macendale Demogoblin, were looking at pre-Hobgoblin Lives, which was published in 1997. But I think its safe to say its Kingsley with a new mask.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 13, 2007 4:12 am 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
So were looking at pre-Civil War, and pre-Marvel Knights Spider-Man, if thats the Kingsley Hobgoblin. If its the Macendale Demogoblin, were looking at pre-Hobgoblin Lives, which was published in 1997. But I think its safe to say its Kingsley with a new mask.
<<<

No, if it's demonic Macendale, you're looking at pre-Web of Spider-Man #86, from back in 1992! (...actually, if MJ had been a stage actress at any point in that period, that could have worked ). 

Presuming its' relatively modern rather than late-80s/early-90s though, what's the early bound on this from Spidey & MJ's perspective again? ASM2 51? ASM 517? And does the placement of Sonja in MTU 79 need to be looked at in light of her getting warped back to her own time at the end of this? 

And wasn't there meant to be a new Hobgoblin in Secret War?

			*	*	*

Dec 14, 2007 12:52 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
And wasn't there meant to be a new Hobgoblin in Secret War?
<<<

...hey! You're right. He has an 'ugly' mask that matches the one seen in this mini, and he's dressed more or less like the regular Hobgoblin. I agree, the Hobgoblin seen here is the same one seen in Secret War. Also, the Hobgoblin in Secret War has an unknown secret identity, or at least unknown to Fury. Fury notes him as a new Hobgoblin, so it's most likely not Kingsley. So good, we're not looking at late-80s/early-90s. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Presuming its' relatively modern rather than late-80s/early-90s though, what's the early bound on this from Spidey & MJ's perspective again? ASM2 51? ASM 517?
<<<

She starts stage acting in ASM 509, the plot of which continues directly through ASM 515. According to Paul's Calendar, ASM 515 is before M/KSM 1, but just barely, and only the first 15 pages at that. That leaves us a very tight window for this mini, but at least there's a window! 

I'll suggest this goes after Spider-Man Unlimited v2 4, and before the Pulse 2 in Spider-Man's chronology.(the third week of July of Year 22 on Paul's Calendar) And because Secret War was brought up, this placement would be after the 'One Year Ago' Flashbacks and before the 'Now' segments of Secret War, making this mini the current first appearance of the new Hobgoblin, and not Secret War. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
And does the placement of Sonja in MTU 79 need to be looked at in light of her getting warped back to her own time at the end of this? 
<<<

I could just be missing it, but I'm not seeing a chronology for Red Sonja.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 15, 2007 9:05 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Fury. Based on your notes, I've placed Spidey in this mini between S-H3 4 and PULSE 2, on July 28-29 of Year 22. The snow ends up as topical.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 15, 2007 4:30 pm 
By dimadick

"No, if it's demonic Macendale, you're looking at pre-Web of Spider-Man #86, from back in 1992! (...actually, if MJ had been a stage actress at any point in that period, that could have worked" 

In her 1980s appearances Mary-Jane had a modeling career. No acting. However her stalker Jonathon Caesar managed to end this career in "Amazing Spider-Man" vol. 1 #319 (September, 1989). 

From a summary: "Mary Jane returns home and has some disturbing news for Peter. A trusted co-worker discovered that Jonathon Caesar is responsible for the sudden downswing in her career. He still has considerable influence even from prison. He is the reason that clients have refused to work with her. This is another part of his revenge for rejecting him. If clients can't be coerced, their companies are bought outright and they are fired." 

This started a brief period of unemployment for her. Which ends when she finds her first professional acting job in #326 (December, 1989). She is part of the cast of a soap opera by the name of "Secret Hospital". She keeps the gig at least until 1992. The titles featured subplots on the set, interactions with cast members outside the set and various fans of the show. 

I am not sure when her television career ended actually. There seems to be no story focusing on her business life in 1993. But it is mentioned as her former job in "Spectacular Spider-Man" vol. 1 #217 (October, 1994), early in the Clone Saga. By that time Jason Macendale had long parted with his the deamon who shared his body.

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Subject: Franklin Richards: Fall Football Fiasco 1

Dec 12, 2007 3:04 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Franklin Richards: Fall Football Fiasco #1 
January, 2008 

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, Invisible Woman, H.E.R.B.I.E. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5 
Franklins mom wants him to play football with the neighborhood kids outside while the weathers still good, but Franklins no good at football. He goes back inside the Baxter Building and uses one of his dads machines to bring some toys to life, so he can play a good game of football. 

References: 
There are only a few good weeks of weather before winter hits. Green grass outside. 

Franklin Richards: Fall Football Fiasco #1/2 

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, Mr. Fantastic, Black Bolt, Medusa, Lockjaw, H.E.R.B.I.E., Invisible Woman-BTS 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5 
Black Bolt and Medusa stop by the Baxter Building to have dinner with Mr. & Mrs. Fantastic. Franklin is to watch Lockjaw, and he tries to get him to teleport them to neat places. When Lockjaw finally does teleport, its to a fire hydrant so he can relieve himself. 

References: 
The Inhumans are on good terms with the Fantastic Four, so this is before Silent War, Civil War, & Secret War. 

The Invisible Woman is going to eat dinner too, but shes not seen, giving her a BTS. 

Franklin Richards: Fall Football Fiasco #1/3 

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, Invisible Woman, Katie Power, H.E.R.B.I.E. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5 
Franklin accidentally activates a Super-Adaptoid to copy him, which is accidentally sent to school in Franklins place. He and H.E.R.B.I.E. follow, to see the Adaptoid stop a bully and be nice to Katie Power. Disgusted, Franklin beats up the Adaptoid and is mean to Katie, which makes her cry. He apologizes and they walk to class. 

References: 
its a school day. 

FRanklin & Katie already know each other, so this would follow any other Franklin Richards one shots where he and Katie see each other. 

Franklin Richards: Fall Football Fiasco #1/4 

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, Invisible Woman, H.E.R.B.I.E. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5 
A vase is broken and Franklin is blamed, but he didnt do it! Shortly afterwards, a future Franklin & H.E.R.B.I.E. appear through time-travel, and the young and older Franklins quickly begin to fight over the future Mr. Fantastics time-travel device. As they pop around the past few minutes, Franklin knocks over a vase, then the future Franklin & H.E.R.B.I.E. return to their own time. 

Franklin Richards: Fall Football Fiasco #1/5 

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Thing, H.E.R.B.I.E., Human Torch-OP 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5 
Mr. Fantastic shows Franklin his astronomy lab, in an attempt to get him interested in less destructive hobbies. The Invisible Woman calls to let Reed know the Torch & Thing are fighting, so he leaves to take care of it. While hes gone, the computers detect an alien life form nearby, so Franklin teleports it inside. He let it out and it runs around, making a mess and breaking things. H.E.R.B.I.E. tricks it back into its pod and they teleport it back into space. Mr. Fantastic returns to find his lab a wreck. 

References: 
The Human Torchs flame-trail is seen on the video screen when the Invisible Woman calls, but hes not, giving him an OP. 

Mr. Fantastic mentions Franklins recent hyperactive and destructive behavior, placing this story after at least the majority, if not all, of the Franklin Richards one shots.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 15, 2007 2:40 pm 
By dimadick

"FRanklin & Katie already know each other, so this would follow any other Franklin Richards one shots where he and Katie see each other." 

Are you suggesting this little tale preceeds the introduction of Franklin to the Power Pack back in "Power Pack" vol. 1 #15 (October, 1985)?

			*	*	*

Dec 16, 2007 7:57 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Um... no. What makes you say that?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 35

Subject: Wolverine: Origins 19

Dec 19, 2007 5:04 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine: Origins #16 
Wolverine: Origins #17 
Wolverine: Origins #18 
Wolverine: Origins #19 
Published: January, 2008 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Captain America-FB, Bucky-FB, Sgt. Fury-FB, Baron Strucker-FB, Seraph-FB 

Synopsis: 
Pg1pn1-pg1pn4(of 5): now 
Wolverine takes a drink at the Captain America memorial, but hes almost caught by a security guard! He hides behind a display and remembers another time he was almost caught by a guard 
Pg1pn5-pg4: November, 1941 
Logan is almost spotted by a Nazi guard, so he snaps his neck, steals his gun and mows down the other guards. He runs into Cap whos looking for Bucky, and together they discover Baron Strucker giving a speech to a legion of Hydra troops. 
Pg5pn1(of 6): now 
Wolverine takes a drink at the Captain America memorial. 
Pg5pn2-pg9pn1-FB: November, 1941 
A tied up Bucky is brought out before the Hydra troops, and he kills Baron Strucker by shoving his nose into his brain. 
Pg9pn2(of 3): now 
Wolverine takes a drink at the Captain America memorial. 
Pg9pn3-pg17pn1-FB: November, 1941 
Hydra attacks Bucky, and Cap & Logan jump in. As theyre about to be overpowered, Sgt. Fury and his men arrive and mow down the Hydra troops, killing them all. When they regroup Fury points out that Strucker was a decoy, and that the real one is still alive to everyones surprise. They split up to look for him, and Logan is confronted by Bucky. 
Pg17pn2(of 3): now 
Wolverine takes a drink at the Captain America memorial. 
Pg17pn3-pg21-FB: November, 1941 
Logan knocks Bucky out and finds Strucker, whos on the phone with Seraph. He hands the phone over to Logan, and she tells him to protect Strucker and kill Captain America and Bucky. 
Pg22: now 
Wolverine takes a drink at the Captain America memorial. 

References: 
Current Day: Hey, something happened! Well, not really I guess. 

FlashBacks: As it turns out, the FlashBacks from last issue that I thought would take place during this issue, actually take place between the two issues FlashBacks. Meaning, after the majority of last issues FlashBacks, but before this issues. 

Fury likes the idea of using decoys, which seems to be an implication of the future use of LMDs. 

This issue forces Baron Strucker to have formed some version of Hydra chronologically before his first appearance. Its not entirely damaging, but I dont know. Meh. It doesnt add anything to the character, it just confuses things a bit. 

Some placement suggestions: 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 10/3 
W: O 17-FB (11/41) 
W: O 18 (1-2)-FB 
W: O 18 (4-6:1)-FB-FB 
W: O 18 (7:4-10)-FB 
W: O 18 (11:2-12:2)-FB 
W: O 18 (12:5-22)-FB 
W: O 18 (3:2)-FB 
*W: O 19-FB 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 22/3 
 

BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN BUCKY BARNES 
 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 10/3 
W: O 17-FB (11/41) 
W: O 18 (1-2)-FB 
W: O 18 (4-6:1)-FB-FB 
W: O 18 (7:4-10)-FB 
W: O 18 (11:2-12:2)-FB 
W: O 18 (12:5-22)-FB 
W: O 18 (12:3)-FB 
*W: O 19-FB 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 22/3 
 

FURY, SGT. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
 
SGTF 62 
W: O 17-FB (11/41) 
W: O 18-FB-FB 
W: O 18-FB 
*W: O 19-FB 
FURY: PM 1-FB (5) 
 

BARON STRUCKER/WOLFGANG VON STRUCKER 
 
XFOR 64 (1941) 
*W: O 18-FB 
UX 268 (9-11:5)-FB (08/41) 
W: O 16 (6:4-7:4)-FB 
UX 268 (11:6-11:7)-FB 
UX 268 (15)-FB 
W: O 16 (16:1-16:3)-FB 
UX 268 (20-21)-FB 
*W: O 19-FB 
{SGTF 5} 
SGTF 9 
 

SERAPH 
W2 126 (6:2)-FB 
W2 126 (8)-FB 
W: O @1 (4-21)-FB 
{UX 268 (9-11:5)-FB} (08/41) 
W: O 16 (6:4-7:4)-FB 
UX 268 (11:6-11:7)-FB 
W: O 16 (14-15)-FB 
W: O 16 (17-19)-FB 
UX 268 (22)-FB 
W: O 16 (21)-FB 
W: O 18-FB 
*W: O 19-FB 
W: O @1 (22)-FB 
W2 126 (6:4)-FB 

WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT 
 
W: O @1-FB (1932) 
W3 52-FB 
W3 53-FB 
W2 5-FB 
UX 257-FB 
BLADE3 5-FB 
X: TF 2 (1936) 
X: TF 3 (1936) 
L: PW (1-9) 
W: O 17 (9)-FB 
W: O 9-FB 
W: O 17 (1-2)-FB 
W2 106-FB 
UX 268 (1-5)-FB (08/41) 
UX 268 (9-11:5)-FB 
W: O 16 (6:4-7:4)-FB 
UX 268 (11:6-11:7)-FB 
W: O 16 (8:5)-FB 
UX 268 (14)-FB 
W: O 16 (10-12)-FB 
UX 268 (15)-FB 
W: O 16 (14-15)-FB 
UX 268 (17)-FB 
W: O 16 (16:1-16:3)-FB 
UX 268 (20:1-20:4)-FB 
W: O 16 (16:4)-FB 
UX 268 (20:5-21)-FB 
W: O 16 (17-19)-FB 
UX 268 (22)-FB 
W: O 16 (21)-FB 
W: O 17 (11-16)-FB (11/41) 
W: O 17 (17:5-22)-FB 
W: O 18 (7:2-7:3)-FB 
W: O 18 (1-2)-FB 
W: O 18 (4-6:1)-FB-FB 
W: O 18 (7:4-10)-FB 
W: O 18 (11:2-12:2)-FB 
W: O 18 (12:5-22)-FB 
*W: O 19-FB 
W3 32 (05/42) 


-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 19, 2007 6:41 pm 
By Enda80

"This issue forces Baron Strucker to have formed some version of Hydra chronologically before his first appearance. Its not entirely damaging, but I dont know. Meh. It doesnt add anything to the character, it just confuses things a bit. " 

Actually, the State Shinto Militarists, the Hand, and perhaps the Yakuza started Hydra, reiterated in the recent Atlas' entry for Japan, though he came up with the name.

			*	*	*
Thread 36

Subject: Wolverine: Origins 20

Dec 20, 2007 1:26 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine: Origins 16 
Wolverine: Origins 17 
Wolverine: Origins 18 
Wolverine: Origins 19 
Wolverine: Origins 20 
Published: February, 2008 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Deadpool, Captain America-FB, Bucky-FB, Baron Strucker-FB, Baron Zemo-FB 

Synopsis: 
Pg1pn1(of 5): now 
Wolverine takes a drink at the Captain America memorial. 
Pg1pn2-pg5pn4-FB: November, 1941 
Logan strikes up a deal with Bucky, and they take a captive Strucker to Captain America. They load him on a plane and take off. 
Pg5pn5-FB-FB 
Repeat of Captain America 255, no new information. 
Pg5pn6(of 6): now 
Wolverine takes a drink at the Captain America memorial. 
Pg6-pg15-FB: November, 1941 
Caps plane is attacked by Messerschmitts and is shot down. When Cap makes his way out of the wreckage he finds Logan with Baron Zemo and his Nazi troops. Cap isnt happy about Logan turning traitor, so he beats the tar out of him. 
Pg16pn1(of 2): now 
Wolverine takes a drink at the Captain America memorial. 
Pg16pn2-pg19pn4-FB: November, 1941 
Bucky shoots Logan in the chest, Zemo escapes with Strucker, and Cap & Bucky leave Logan in the desert. 
Pg19pn5(of 5): now 
Wolverine takes a drink at the Captain America memorial. 
Pg20pn1 
Repeat of W: O 4, no new information. 
Pg20pn2(of 2): now 
Wolverine takes a drink at the Captain America memorial. 
Pg21-pg22: the day after (20:2) 
Deadpool is hired to kill Wolverine. 

References: 
Current Day: 
Who hired Deadpool? I dont know, he was in shadows but Deadpool recognized the uniform. I guess well find out next arc. In all likelihood, this will directly lead into the next arc, just like the previous 18 issues all ran into each other. Since Deadpools chronology wont free up until his series is cancelled, and since issue 16-19 are fairly freestanding, Ill say W: O 16 through whatever starts after Cable/Deadpool 50. Also most likely, after Messiah CompleX. 

FlashBacks: 
Baron Zemo? In his mask? Oh, lord 

The Howling Commandos havent formed yet at this point. After they do, they encounter Baron Zemo before he starts wearing his mask. After that encounter, Zemo is the most hated man in Europe, so he starts wearing his mask in shame. After that, he has his encounter with Captain America, where his mask is glued to his face. And yet, here he is wearing his mask before hes shamed into it. Sigh At the very least, this takes place after his son time-travels to the past to give him the mask,(in Zemo: Born Better) so that works out. 

Some placement suggestions: 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 10/3 
W: O 17-FB (11/41) 
W: O 18 (1-2)-FB 
W: O 18 (4-6:1)-FB-FB 
W: O 18 (7:4-10)-FB 
W: O 18 (11:2-12:2)-FB 
W: O 18 (12:5-22)-FB 
W: O 18 (3:2)-FB 
W: O 19-FB 
*W: O 20-FB 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 22/3 
 

BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN BUCKY BARNES 
 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 10/3 
W: O 17-FB (11/41) 
W: O 18 (1-2)-FB 
W: O 18 (4-6:1)-FB-FB 
W: O 18 (7:4-10)-FB 
W: O 18 (11:2-12:2)-FB 
W: O 18 (12:5-22)-FB 
W: O 18 (12:3)-FB 
W: O 19-FB 
*W: O 20-FB 
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 22/3 
 

BARON STRUCKER/WOLFGANG VON STRUCKER 
 
XFOR 64 (1941) 
W: O 18-FB 
UX 268 (9-11:5)-FB (08/41) 
W: O 16 (6:4-7:4)-FB 
UX 268 (11:6-11:7)-FB 
UX 268 (15)-FB 
W: O 16 (16:1-16:3)-FB 
UX 268 (20-21)-FB 
W: O 19-FB 
*W: O 20-FB 
{SGTF 5} 
SGTF 9 
 

BARON ZEMO XII/HEINRICH ZEMO 
CA: ME (11)-FB 
Z: BB 3 
Z: BB 4 
*W: O 20-FB 
CA: ME (12)-FB (1939) 
SGTF 8 
A 6-FB 
CA: ME (15:3-15:6)-FB 
CA 168-FB 
 

WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT 
 
W: O @1-FB (1932) 
W3 52-FB 
W3 53-FB 
W2 5-FB 
UX 257-FB 
BLADE3 5-FB 
X: TF 2 (1936) 
X: TF 3 (1936) 
L: PW (1-9) 
W: O 17 (9)-FB 
W: O 9-FB 
W: O 17 (1-2)-FB 
W2 106-FB 
UX 268 (1-5)-FB (08/41) 
UX 268 (9-11:5)-FB 
W: O 16 (6:4-7:4)-FB 
UX 268 (11:6-11:7)-FB 
W: O 16 (8:5)-FB 
UX 268 (14)-FB 
W: O 16 (10-12)-FB 
UX 268 (15)-FB 
W: O 16 (14-15)-FB 
UX 268 (17)-FB 
W: O 16 (16:1-16:3)-FB 
UX 268 (20:1-20:4)-FB 
W: O 16 (16:4)-FB 
UX 268 (20:5-21)-FB 
W: O 16 (17-19)-FB 
UX 268 (22)-FB 
W: O 16 (21)-FB 
W: O 17 (11-16)-FB (11/41) 
W: O 17 (17:5-22)-FB 
W: O 18 (7:2-7:3)-FB 
W: O 18 (1-2)-FB 
W: O 18 (4-6:1)-FB-FB 
W: O 18 (7:4-10)-FB 
W: O 18 (11:2-12:2)-FB 
W: O 18 (12:5-22)-FB 
W: O 19-FB 
*W: O 20-FB 
W3 32 (05/42) 


-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 37

Subject: Marvel Saga #8-10

Nov 19, 2007 1:51 am 
By jephyork
Director

A long time ago, I wrote up an analysis of Marvel Saga #1, showing that  although the entire 25-issue series was mainly composed of clips from old comics  the first issue had some new material, showing what a bevy of Marvel heroes were doing at the time of FF #1. 

Since I cant seem to find either that old thread or my original notes, heres the list again: 

On the day that the FF flew into space and gained their powers, the following characters, shown in a single panel each, were doing the following: 

Captain America was frozen in ice and being worshipped by Eskimos. 
Namor was homeless, skulking along the streets of New York. 
Nick Fury was staring at the Washington Monument from his desk, itching for action. 
Tony Stark was attending a party. 
Bruce Banner was laboring under the blustering direction of Thunderbolt Ross, as his daughter Betty looked on in the background. 
Dr. Henry Pym was almost ready to test the new sub-atomic shrinking particles hed discovered. 
Dr. Donald Blake was standing in a travel agency, pondering a trip to Norway. 
Prof. X was tutoring a young Jean Grey in her telekinetic abilities. 
Dr. Strange was meditating in his newly-purchased Greenwich Village home. 
Matt Murdock and Foggy Nelson were studying to begin their law careers. 
Peter Parker was reading a newspaper article about Reed Richards, while Flash Thompson and some other students (blonde girl, dark-haired guy, black-haired girl) made fun of him behind his back. 

Pp.2-3 deal with Marvel pre-history through the 1940s, and may contain some new material too. I really should track down that old write-up. 

In any event, I went through some later issues of Marvel Saga (#2-12) and found that some of them also contain new material! Since I dont own ALL the original comics that these books are referencing, I cant pinpoint all the added items with accuracy, but Ive been able to note some new X-Men-related scenes in #8-10. 

Marvel Saga generally re-used the original art from old comics. When that art wasnt available, they hired an artist to redraw it. Sometimes the artist was faithful  but sometimes he redrew the scene completely. And in those cases, occasionally some new events were added. 

Now, theres a certain degree of leniency Ill give to redrawn scenes. If a character is standing in the original panel but sitting in the redrawn version, Im not going to cry new material. If a character is punching with his left instead of his right  same thing. Its simply a different artists interpretation of the same scene. But in some cases, new actions are added to a sequence of events, new lines are spoken that dont bear any paraphrased relation to the old lines  in cases like those, I like to flag them up as new material. 

And thats whats happened in Marvel Saga #8-10, which showcase re-drawn versions of the origins of the Angel and the Beast, from the backup stories in Uncanny X-Men #50-56. 

Marvel Saga #8 p.30 panel 1 *could* be representational of UX #55, story #2, p.3 panel 3  but it has a few key differences. 

The original panel has Warren punching out an unarmed crook who is wearing a purple coat and hat and has run down the street from his felled partners, and Warren is holding nothing in his hand. 

The Marvel Saga panel has Warren punching out a crook in a suit and tie who is holding a gun and standing amidst the bodies of his felled partners, and Warren is holding his gas-gun in his hand. 

Im tempted to call this new material, and place it between UX #55/2 p.2 panels 2-3, after Warren bombards the crooks with gas but before he puts the gun back on his belt and begins to chase the crook in purple. 

Marvel Saga #8 p.30 panels 2-5 and p.31 panel 1 match closely with UX #55/2, p. 4 panels 5-6 and p. 5 panels 1-3. 

M/SAGA #8 p.31 panel 2 doesnt *quite* match UX #55/2 p.5 panel 5 (Warren picking up the cylinder and visibly getting a snootful of gas, vs. him holding the cylinder and talking about feeling funny)  but since his picking up the cylinder in the M/SAGA panel is implied by his holding it in the UX panel, I dont think this really qualifies as a new action  its just an artistic reinterpretation of an action we already know he took. 

M/SAGA #8 p.31 panels 3-5 and p. 32 panels 1-3 match closely with UX #55/2 p. 5 panel 6, UX #56/2 p.2 panels 2-4, and p. 3 panels 1-2. 

M/SAGA #8 p.32 panels 4-5 are all-new! They show Prof. Xs immediate reaction to Icemans being knocked out, and Cyclops and Angel facing off. They occur between UX #56/2 p.3 panels 2-3. 

Marvel Saga #9 begins where #8 left off, with an all-new splash panel of Cyclops blasting at Angel as Iceman lies unconscious on the floor. It, too, occurs between UX #56/2 p.3 panels 2-3. 

Marvel Saga #9 p.2 panels 1-2 match closely with UX #56/2 p.3 panels 3-4, although M/SAGA #9 p.2 panel 2 has Prof. X think the added line millions will die if I fail! 

M/SAGA #9 p.2 panels 3-4 are all-new! They feature Cyclops and Angel mixing it up physically, while Prof. X contacts Warren mentally and attempts to get his attention. 

M/SAGA #9 p.2 panel 5 and p.3 panels 1-2 match closely with UX #56 p.3 panels 5-6 and the first half of panel 7 (up through Warrens line it does feel  strange!). 

M/SAGA #9 p.3 panels 3-4 are all-new! They feature Prof. X explaining that he probed the minds of the criminals Warren took the vial from, and that if Iceman were awake he could freeze it  but since hes not, only Warren can help. The final speech bubble of panel 4 is the same as the final speech bubble of UX #56/2 p.3 panel 7. 

M/SAGA #9 p.3 panels 5-6 and p.4 panels 1-6 match closely with UX #56/2 p.4 panels 1 and 5, and p.5 panels 1-6. (Although M/SAGA #9 p.3 panel 6 contains an all-new thought bubble for Warren, wondering what got into him and made him fight the two mutants he just met.) 

And thats it for the X-Men portions of M/SAGA #8-9. However, issue #8 has some Thor material on p.27 thats been obviously redrawn (by Walt Simonson!), so that probably bears some study. 

Marvel Saga #10 p.23 panel 5 is a picture of the Beast leaping down the football field during a game and jumping over the goalpost, barefoot, with the football. This is similar to UX #51/2 p.1 panel 1, but with some key differences  in the original panel, Hank is being mobbed by players, wearing shoes, and there are no goalposts in sight. Im again tempted to call the M/SAGA panel new material and place it between UX #50/2 and #51/2. (Hank ends up barefoot at the end of UX #50/2, and it seems likely that he just continued playing the game that way.) 

M/SAGA #10 p.24 panels 1-4 and p.25 panels 1-5 match closely with UX #51/2 p.4 panel 7 and p.5 panels 4 and 6, #52/2 p.3 panel 4 and p.5 panels 1 and 7, and #53/2 p.2 panels 3-4 and p.3 panel 5. 

M/SAGA #10 p.26 panel 1 is similar, but not quite the same, as UX #53/2 p.3 panel 6. The X-Men are bursting through the door in both panels, but in the UX panel, Icemans just cruising on his ice-slide and the Beast is noted as being on the floor there. In the M/SAGA panel, Iceman is throwing ice-javelins  an action he never takes in the original issue  and the Beast is rising from the floor with fists clenched. Im tempted to call this panel new material, and place it between pp.3-4 of UX #53/2. 

M/SAGA #10 p.26 panel 2 is an amalgamation of the actions in UX #53/2 p.4 panels 3-4. 

M/SAGA #10 p.26 panel 3 is all-new, featuring the Conquistador seating himself inside a giant gun. It takes place between panels 1-2 of UX #53/2 p.5. 

M/SAGA #10 p.26 panel 4 features the X-Men fleeing from the exploding building. I would call it new material, since the original issue skips from the Conquistador electrocuting himself to the X-Men standing outside by Prof. Xs car, watching the building explode  but the M/SAGA panel is odd. It shows the Angel flying above and appears to show five or six fleeing figures on the ground, but including the Beast, there were only four other X-Men. The other 1-2 figures must be the Beasts parents  but UX #53/2 p.5 panel 4 shows that they didnt all escape together, but that the Beast stayed behind to rescue his parents, and the other X-Men didnt notice this until they were already at the car. 

So, basically, the M/SAGA panel is a flawed retelling  neither a matchup to any existing panel, nor new material. 

M/SAGA #10 p.26 panel 5 is all-new  it shows the Beast, still in civilian clothes, shaking Prof. Xs hand. This should be placed between panels 4-5 of UX #53/2 p. 5, between the exploding building scene and the scene later, at the McCoy home where Beast, wearing an X-Men uniform, agrees to join the team. 

The rest of M/SAGA #10 reprints selections from UX #1 and Bizarre Adventures #27 (now in color!), but there is no new material present. 


So heres how #8-10 stack up, in MCP format: 

ANGEL III 
 
UX 54/2 
UX 55/2-FB 
UX 55/2 (1-2p2) 
* M/SAGA 8 (30p1) 
UX 55/2 (2p3-5p6) 
UX 56/2 (1-3p2) 
* M/SAGA 8 (32p5) 
* M/SAGA 9 (1) 
* M/SAGA 9 (2p3-2p4) 
UX 56/2 (3p5-3p7) 
* M/SAGA 9 (3p3-3p4) 
UX 56/2 (3p7-4p5) 
* M/SAGA 9 (3p6) 
UX 56/2 (5) 
UX 51/2 
UX 52/2 
UX 53/2 (3) 
* M/SAGA 10 (26p1) 
UX 53/2 (4-5p4) 
* M/SAGA 10 (26p5) 
UO 6 (16p2-16p3) 
UX 53/2 (5p5-5p6) 
M/CP 85/3-FB 
 

BEAST 
 
UX 50/2 
* M/SAGA 10 (23p5) 
UX 51/2 (1-??) 
UO 6 (??-??) 
UX 51/2 (??-5p6) 
UX 52/2 
UX 53/2 (1-3) 
* M/SAGA 10 (26p1) 
UX 53/2 (4-5p4) 
* M/SAGA 10 (26p5) 
UX 15 (16p5-16p6)-FB 
* UO 6 (16p2-16p3)  BTS 
UX 53/2 (5p5-5p6) 
M/CP 85/3-FB 
 

(Note: Uncanny Origins #6 p.16 panels 2-3 is present in everyone elses listing, but not the Beasts. However, since his father is talking directly to him in panel 3, he must be right off panel. I have no idea what the page and panel ranges referenced for UO #6 and UX #51/2 earlier in the Beasts listing are, so I just left them as-is.) 

* CONQUISTADOR 
UX 50/2 
UX 51/2 
UX 52/2 
UX 53/2 (1-3) 
M/SAGA 10 (26p1) 
UX 53/2 (4-5p1) 
M/SAGA 10 (26p3) 
UX 53/2 (5p2-5p3) 

(Note: no MCP entry for the Conquistador? I am shocked. Shocked, I tell you.) 

CYCLOPS II 
 
UX 55/2 
UX 56/2 (1-2) 
* M/SAGA 8 (32p5) 
* M/SAGA 9 (1) 
* M/SAGA 9 (2p3-2p4) 
UX 56/2 (3p5-3p7) 
* M/SAGA 9 (3p3-3p4) 
UX 56/2 (4-5) 
UX 51/2 
UX 52/2 
UX 53/2 (3) 
* M/SAGA 10 (26p1) 
UX 53/2 (4-5p4) 
* M/SAGA 10 (26p5) 
UO 6 (16p2-16p3) 
UX 53/2 (5p5-5p6) 
M/CP 85/3-FB 
 

ICEMAN 
 
UX 55/2 
UX 56/2 (1-3p2) 
* M/SAGA 9 (1) 
UX 56/2 (3p6-5p6) 
UX 51/2 
UX 52/2 
UX 53/2 (3) 
* M/SAGA 10 (26p1) 
UX 53/2 (4-5p4) 
* M/SAGA 10 (26p5) 
* UO 6 (16p2-16p3)-BTS 
UX 53/2 (5p5-5p6) 
M/CP 85/3-FB 
 

(Note: Iceman is not seen on-panel in Uncanny Origins #6 p.16 panels 2-3. He should be listed there as BTS.) 

PROFESSOR X 
 
UX 55/2 
UX 56/2 (1-3p2) 
* M/SAGA 8 (32p4-32p5) 
* M/SAGA 9 (1)-BTS 
UX 56/2 (3p3-3p4) 
* M/SAGA 9 (2p2-2p4) 
UX 56/2 (3p5-3p7) 
* M/SAGA 9 (3p3-3p4) 
UX 56/2 (4-5) 
UX 15 (16p4)-FB 
UX 51/2 
UX 52/2 
UX 53/2 (5p2-5p4) 
* M/SAGA 10 (26p5) 
UX 15 (16p5-16p6)-FB 
UO 6 (16p2-16p3) 
UX 53/2 (5p5-5p6) 
M/CP 85/3-FB 
 

(Note: Edna and Norton McCoy dont appear on-panel in any of the new material in M/SAGA #10, and since theres no way to prove that theyre directly off-panel either, Im leaving the issue out of their listings.) 


And there we have it! Next (eventually): Marvel Saga #11-25! 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Nov 19, 2007 2:23 am 
By Enda80

"Dr. Strange was meditating in his newly-purchased Greenwich Village home. " 

This is problematic; Msaga states that Doctor Strange became a sorcerer just before the modern era (i.e. events of FF#1) and that his early adventures took place in that era, but the Lost Generation#5's letters page has established that his solo adventures up to Strange Tales I#123 took place in the pre-modern era. 

Strange was given this early start since the Ancient One was shown as active for centuries, and he was one of the few 1960's introduced characters to not be introduced in an origin story.

			*	*	*

Nov 19, 2007 12:46 pm 
By wolframbane

>>>
"Dr. Strange was meditating in his newly-purchased Greenwich Village home. "
<<<

This may be rectified as Dr. Strange meditating in his home, and just dismissing the "newly-purchased" note. Or maybe he has lived the for years, and just finished paying it off (Greenwich Village homes ARE expensive)!! 


>>>
Bruce Banner was laboring under the blustering direction of Thunderbolt Ross, as his daughter Betty looked on in the background.
<<<

Bruce was working with Ross at some point before FF 1, they were depicted together on the last page of M/:LG 12, which occurs sometime before FF 1. And suprise, Ross is still yelling!!

			*	*	*

Nov 19, 2007 1:46 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
This is problematic; Msaga states that Doctor Strange became a sorcerer just before the modern era (i.e. events of FF#1) and that his early adventures took place in that era, but the Lost Generation#5's letters page has established that his solo adventures up to Strange Tales I#123 took place in the pre-modern era.
<<<

Since when, Enda, do we take the information from a letters page over information given on panel? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Nov 19, 2007 5:09 pm 
By Enda80

The rest of the Lost Generation shows Doctor Strange active in the pre-modern era (he teamed up with the Black Fox at some point before the absolute 1970's) so I would suggest we respect this clarification.

			*	*	*

Nov 19, 2007 5:29 pm 
By DonCampbell

Wouldn't info from a letters page constitute "writer's intent" and, as such, be at least worthy of consideration? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Writer's Intent ALWAYS has priority over on-panel revelations but surely they shouldn't all be automatically dismissed? In this particular case, I don't think that a passing reference to Strange's "newly-purchased" home would necessarily be as binding as other in-story references. 

For example, the Doctor Strange/Doctor Doom Graphic Novel revealed that Strange had once just missed encountering Doom at the cave of the Aged Genghis. After leaving the cave, it took Doom "months" to reach the order of holy men in high Tibet where he later created his first armor. And Strange had been returning to America when he stopped by the cave to pay his respects to the Genghis and found him lying beaten on the floor. I interpret this as meaning that Strange had returned to the United States "months" or years before Doom's first encounter with the FF. If someone were to claim that Strange's solo adventures up to when he first interacted with the "normal" Marvel Universe (i.e. outside of his STRANGE TALES world) had occurred during those "months"/years, I couldn't really argue with him. 

Since Marvel: The Lost Generation counted backwards, events in M/:LG #8 involving Strange and the heroic Black Fox took place (years?) before M/:LG #11 when the pre-FF Reed Richards first encountered a Skrull. Now if M/:LG #8 had mentioned Strange's Greenwich Village home, that would have definitely contradicted/discredited the MSAGA #1 reference, right? 

By the way, I thought that I remembered that the story in DRSTR2 #56 contained a flashback which showed Strange actually buying his Greenwich Village mansion but I can't find such a FB in his chronology. Does anyone else remember such a scene? 

One last thing: One of the co-plotters of the Lost Generation LS was Roger Stern who also wrote the DSDDGN and many of the DRSTR2 stories which filled in some of Strange's backstory. It was also Stern who established that Strange looked unusually young for a man whose surgical career was so long ago. 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Nov 19, 2007 6:26 pm 
By Enda80

"For example, the Doctor Strange/Doctor Doom Graphic Novel revealed that Strange had once just missed encountering Doom at the cave of the Aged Genghis. After leaving the cave, it took Doom "months" to reach the order of holy men in high Tibet where he later created his first armor. And Strange had been returning to America when he stopped by the cave to pay his respects to the Genghis and found him lying beaten on the floor. I interpret this as meaning that Strange had returned to the United States "months" or years before Doom's first encounter with the FF. If someone were to claim that Strange's solo adventures up to when he first interacted with the "normal" Marvel Universe (i.e. outside of his STRANGE TALES world) had occurred during those "months"/years, I couldn't really argue with him. 

Since Marvel: The Lost Generation counted backwards, events in M/:LG #8 involving Strange and the heroic Black Fox took place (years?) before M/:LG #11 when the pre-FF Reed Richards first encountered a Skrull. Now if M/:LG #8 had mentioned Strange's Greenwich Village home, that would have definitely contradicted/discredited the MSAGA #1 reference, right?" 

During the encounter, it was stated that the Black Fox had teamed with Strange before. 

"By the way, I thought that I remembered that the story in DRSTR2 #56 contained a flashback which showed Strange actually buying his Greenwich Village mansion but I can't find such a FB in his chronology. Does anyone else remember such a scene? " 
Correct, when he gives an interviews to the disguised Mordo's minions, it was said to have been built on a Native American burial ground (Roger Stern must have read Amityville or seen Within the Woods or Poltergeist). 

"One last thing: One of the co-plotters of the Lost Generation LS was Roger Stern who also wrote the DSDDGN and many of the DRSTR2 stories which filled in some of Strange's backstory. It was also Stern who established that Strange looked unusually young for a man whose surgical career was so long ago. " 

Oddly enough, in Doctor Strange III#34, it was claimed that Doctor Doom made his trip to Tibet before Doctor Strange or even Doctor Druid had.

			*	*	*

Nov 19, 2007 6:59 pm 
By SeanCurtin

jephyork wrote:
>>>
A long time ago, I wrote up an analysis of Marvel Saga #1, showing that  although the entire 25-issue series was mainly composed of clips from old comics  the first issue had some new material, showing what a bevy of Marvel heroes were doing at the time of FF #1.
<<<

I can't find the original thread, but there was a second thread on the same topic that can be found in forum archive #70.

			*	*	*

Nov 19, 2007 7:59 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
Wouldn't info from a letters page constitute "writer's intent" and, as such, be at least worthy of consideration?
<<<

Since letters pages are generally written by assistant editors ... no. 

I'm not saying that Enda's claim is false on its face. I'm trying to get him to back it up with more compelling evidence than "some letters page said so". 

Thanks for the link to that thread in Archive #70. Interesting reading. Apparently back then, I had decided that the shot of Angel picking up the cylinder *was* new material. Amazing what three years will do. (Amazing, too, that I used the word "snootful" to describe Angel inhaling the gas back then too!) 

Also fun to watch was Enda doing his "resurrect a thread after seven months of inactivity" schtick -- TWICE IN A ROW. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Nov 19, 2007 11:52 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I really need to dig out my Marvel Sagas... but at the moment, I can at least suggest this: 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
... 
CA 215 (11 - 13:3)-FB 
*M/SAGA 1 
CA:SL2 11-FB 
A 4 
... 

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
... 
BFF:BGL 2 
*M/SAGA 1 
FF 21 
...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Nov 25, 2007 8:24 am 
By Enda80

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=139096&page=2

In issue # 8 (which looking by the fashions and dialogue to take place in the late '60's early '70's) Black Fox tells Pixie that he and Strange first met in a Haunted House "longer ago than I care to remember".

Sure, that doesn't give much info in and of itself, but, add that statement (and Fox's long career - which went back to the late 40's early 1950's - according to his statements from being in the "First Line", and) with the info tidbits that are given by Byrne & Stern (in the letter's page of issue # 1 (12 of 12) and # 12 (1 of 12) - yes, the numbering of this thing gives me headaches too- ) .

In issue #1 (12 of 12) it states:
"DOCTOR STRANGE. While not exactly a super hero, the good Doctor has been a practicing sorcerer since LONG before the creation of the Fantastic Four!..."

And in issue # 12 (1 of 12) it adds:
DOCTOR STRANGE. Well, of course Doc predated the Fantastic Four! After all he spent YEARS in Asia, learning his craft at the side of the Ancient One, before returning to America to become a practicing mystic master. In fact, in his very first story... it was revealed that the name of Doctor Strange was "spoken in whispers". You think that kind of notoriety happens overnight?"

I should note that several times, Strange has encountered old
acquaintances from his pre-sorcerery days (for
example, Doctor Strange II#66 and in Marvel Comics
Presents#61.

			*	*	*

Dec 06, 2007 4:19 am 
By wolframbane

With some help from Col_Fury (thanks!!), I think I have managed to place the appearances of most of the characters in M/SAGA 1 which are simultaneous with FF 1-FB. Also note that in M/SAGA 1 (4:4), a full moon is shown. I am still working on the placement for Donald Blake, Peter Parker, Flash Thompson, Matt Murdock and Foggy Nelson. Any suggestions? 

ANT-MAN/DR. HENRY J. PYM 
A 227-FB 
TTA 44-FB ~ WCA2 33-FB 
ST 75/4 
M/:LG 12 
M/SAGA 1 (4:6) 
{TTA 27-FB} 
... 
NOTE: I have moved ST 75/4, where he was a lab assistant working with Albert Poole on a project to create a growth serum (before finally giving it up to build a robot), to before M/:LG 12 and M/SAGA 1 (4:6), where he was a scientist and was shown to be working on Pym Particles. 


BANNER, BETTY ROSS TALBOT 
H2 291-FB 
H2 466-FB 
M/SAGA 1 (4:5) 
H3 15-FB 
{H 1} 
... 


CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
... 
CA 215-FB (11-13:3) 
M/SAGA 1 (4:1) 
CA:SL2 11-FB 
{A 4} 
... 


DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 
... 
M/:LG 12 
M/SAGA 1 (5:3) 
{ST 110/3} 
... 


FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
... 
BFF:BGL 2 
M/SAGA 1 (4:3) 
FF 21 
... 


HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
... 
H2 -1-FB 
M/:LG 12 
M/SAGA 1 (4:5) 
W/H 3-FB 
H3 15-FB 
{H 1} 
... 


IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK 
... 
BFF:BGL 2 
M/SAGA 1 (4:4) 
IM3 50-FB 
IM 267-FB 
{TOS 39} 
... 


MARVEL GIRL/JEAN GREY SUMMERS 
... 
CX 43/2-FB 
M/SAGA 1 (5:2) 
XMF 3 
XMF 4 
... 


PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER 
... 
CX 42/2 
X:WA-FB 
M/SAGA 1 (5:2) 
X -1 
UX 38/2 
... 


ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. "THUNDERBOLT" 
H2 291-FB 
XFOR -1-FB 
H3 81 
H2 -1-FB 
M/:LG 12 
M/SAGA 1 (4:5) 
H3 15-FB 
{H 1} 
... 
NOTE: I have added H3 81 (involving a younger Major Ross clearing young Baner of charges for attempting to blow up his school), moved H2 -1-FB (Ross hires Bruce for the Gamma project) to before the were shown working together in M/:LG 12 and M/SAGA 1, and moved XFOR -1-FB to years before (a younger Lt. Ross served with Thunderbird's father). 


SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
... 
TB -1 
M/SAGA 1 (4:2) 
SUB-M 1-FB (13:5-13:6) 
TM:ID 
{FF 4} 
...

Last edited by wolframbane on Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:38 am, edited 4 times in total. 

			*	*	*

Dec 06, 2007 7:21 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
I am still working on the placement for Donald Blake, Peter Parker, Flash Thompson, Matt Murdock and Foggy Nelson. Any suggestions? 
<<<

You may want to check these theories: 
Blake between JIM -1 and T 415-FB (7:1-9:2) 
Parker between ASM 518-FB and AmF 17-FB (1:4) 
Thompson before AmF 17-FB (1:4) 
Murdock before DD 209-FB 
Nelson before DD 1-FB (13:5) 

These are based on crude notes I have, which I haven't checked.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 20, 2007 6:59 pm 
By Enda80

The panel with Nelson and Murdock is just a recolored version of a panel by Everett from Daredevil I#1. In fact, the original panel the MSaga#1 is based on is later reprinted in MSaga#13. 

I don't know if the other panels are simply redrawn or recolored from other sources.

			*	*	*

Dec 20, 2007 9:09 pm 
By Arthur
Director

wolframbane wrote 

>>>
ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. "THUNDERBOLT" 
H2 291-FB 
XFOR -1-FB 
H3 81 
H2 -1-FB 
M/:LG 12 
M/SAGA 1 (4:5) 
H3 15-FB 
{H 1} 
... 
NOTE: I have added H3 81 (involving a younger Major Ross clearing young Baner of charges for attempting to blow up his school), 
<<<

Should that not read H3 81-FB?

			*	*	*

Thread 38

Subject: Spider-Man Family v2 6

Dec 21, 2007 03:56 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Spider-Man Family v2 6 
February, 2008 

Appearances: 
Thor, Loki, Spider-Man(Peter parker), Mary Jane Watson 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4: one night, full moon 
Thor stops a mugger in the park, and is turned into a frog by Loki. Frog-Thor is picked up and put into a cage while Loki watches 
Pg5-pg22: the next day 
Spider-Man goes to high school, where he cant wait to see Mary Jane. Today, the class is dissecting frogs, but Peters is trying to communicate, so he takes it outside to the park by sneaking it out in his backpack. Meanwhile, Loki is disguised as a student to watch Thor dissected. When they get to the park, Frog-Thor lifts his hammer and turns into Thor, but hes still a small frog. Together, they go back to class and defeat Loki. Thor is turned back to normal when Mary Jane kisses him.(thinking shes kissing Spider-Man) 

References: 
Peter and Mary Jane go to the same high school: Polk High. I might be wrong here, but I dont think this is 616. 

Spider-Man Family v2 6/2 

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Ka-Zar, Zabu, Aunt May, Stegron(Vincent Stegron), Sauron(Karl Lykos) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8 
Spider-Man, Ka-Zar, and Zabu defeat Stegron in New York. As S.H.I.E.L.D. agents haul Stegron away, Ka-Zar asks Spider-man to watch Zabu while he attends a global warming conference. He takes Zabu home and stashes him in the garage. While he works on his science homework, he chats with Aunt May about endangered species. Later, he takes Zabu to the natural history museum so he can meet replicas of his relatives. 
Pg9-pg10: a day or two later 
Spider-Man, Ka-Zar, and Zabu have just defeated Sauron. They say their good-byes and Ka-Zar leaves with Zabu and Stegron. 

References: 
It really reads like this story wants Peter to be in High School, but Stegron didnt appear until Marvel Team-Up 19, well into the 70s! Maybe Peter decided to stay at Aunt Mays because she had a garage to house Zabu? He certainly wouldnt have had room for him in his apartment. And the biology test tomorrow could very well be a college class. But Peters wearing glasses 

Ka-Zar is attending a conference on global warming, and hes representing the Savage Land. I have no idea where this would fit in his chronology. 

Spider-Man Family v2 6/3 
Reprint of Amazing Spider-Man 180. 

Spider-Man Family v2 6/4 
Reprint of Marvel Team-Up 1. 

Spider-Man Family v2 6/5 
Reprint of some issue of Spider-Man J. 

Does anyone have any placement suggestions?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 21, 2007 05:19 am 
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/frogsofcentralpark.htm
Thor has undergone amphibian transformations.

			*	*	*

Dec 21, 2007 05:51 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thank you, Dr. Obvious.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 21, 2007 10:30 am 
By Somebody
Director

Heh.

[PS: John, look at the comic before you spout this stuff. Here's the recap page]
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/preview2.php?image=news/commentarytrack/frogthor/family0.jpg


As for "In-continuity... or not":

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=12066
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=12165

>>>
Eliopoulos describes the issue as an "out of continuity homage -- sort of. When talking to Nate, he told me he wanted it to be new reader friendly, no continuity. I also wanted to do Peter Parker in his days when he was still in high school, so that seemed to work well. It's not in Marvel continuity, so in a sense this is his first time being turned into a frog, like in Walt's story."
<<<


Chris Eliopoulos wrote:
>>>
I started working out the story in my head since Nate set down some ground rules. It had to be out of continuity, he wanted Peter in high school, and I needed to figure out a way to bring Thor and Spidey together.
<<<

Reasonably definitive 

			*	*	*

Dec 21, 2007 08:11 pm 
By JLH

Polk High? Peter married the redhead he dated at the school? 

Lovely "Married... With Children" reference, that.

			*	*	*

Dec 21, 2007 10:11 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

It is, isn't it?  


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Reasonably definitive  
<<<

Thanks!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 23, 2007 03:38 am 
By dimadick

"Peter and Mary Jane go to the same high school: Polk High. I might be wrong here, but I dont think this is 616. " 

Peter Parker graduated from Midtown High School in "Amazing Spider-Man" vol. 1 #28 (September, 1965). He first meets Mary-Jane Watson in #42 (November, 1966) during his college days. 

The love interests of Peter during the high school years were Betty Brant and Liz Allan.

			*	*	*

Dec 23, 2007 04:07 am 
By dimadick

"Spider-Man, Ka-Zar, and Zabu defeat Stegron in New York. As S.H.I.E.L.D. agents haul Stegron away" 

Stegron and S.H.I.E.L.D? 

Back in his very first appearance in "Marvel Team-Up" vol. 1 #19 (March, 1974), S.H.I.E.L.D transported Spidey to the Savage Land in order to track down Dr. Vincent Stegron. The "Ark" which Stegron uses to transport Savage Land dinosaurs into New York seems based on the Heli-Carrier technology. Ka-Zar turns up in this part of the story. 

#20 (April, 1974) takes place entirely in New York. The new Spider-Man ally was the Black Panther. T'Challa was the only Avenger present at their mansion and thus the only one to respont to the Stegron invasion. However S.H.I.E.L.D units are dispatched throughout New York to face the invasion. Stegron is presumed drowned at the end of the issue and thus escapes custody. S.H.I.E.L.D takes charge of the situation and flies the dinosaurs back to the Savage Land. 

"Thunderstrike" #20 (May, 1995) has Stegron kill the scientists of a S.H.I.E.L.D observation post in the Savage Land. Black Panther, Black Widow and Thunderstrike respond to the emergency call. The end of their battle leaves Stegron alone in mainstream Antarctica under temperatures making his survival unlikely. 

Other Stegron issues do not feature the organization. Which is a bit strange since Vincent was a member of its scientific department who escaped with the results of high-security research.

			*	*	*

Dec 23, 2007 12:57 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

"Hey, Aunt May? Mind if I move back in for a couple of days with a big friggin' tiger? No? Great. The glasses? Yeah, I kinda missed 'em, so I figured I'd put 'em back on for old times sake. Things look a little blurry, but fashion is fashion." 

Hmm. Does this belong with the the first story in the land of non-canonicity?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 39

Subject: Spider-Man Family v2 5

Dec 21, 2007 02:51 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Spider-Man Family v2 5 
December, 2007 

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Dr. Stephen Strange, Michael Morbius, Aunt May-FB, Wong-FB 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2 
Spider-Man and Dr. Strange are held captive by a bunch of lizard people, led by Set-Dagon. 
Pg3-pg14-FB: earlier that day 
Peter and Aunt May have just finished eating when Peter is called by Dr. Strange. Hes flown across town to Dr. Stranges place where hes greeted by Wong. Dr. Strange explains that someone is stealing his mystic energy, and they have to stop them. Meanwhile, Morbius steals Dr. Stranges mystic power and opens a portal. As Spider-Man and Dr. Strange follow the energy, theyre attacked by lizard people, and taken captive by Set-Dagon, their leader. 
Pg15-pg22 
Spider-Man and Dr. Strange break free, and find Morbius. Dr. Strange regains his power and banishes the lizard people. Morbius explains he was trying to save his friend from the disease thats killing him, and Dr. Strange explains that his magic doesnt work that way: there arent any short-cuts when it comes to life-forces. 

References: 
Peter is single, and wearing his classic Red & Blues. Aunt May lives in Queens. Morbius is a living vampire. For some reason I want to say this is after FF 268, which would place this after Secret Wars. 

Spider-Man Family v2 5/2 

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Kraven the Hunter (Sergei Kravinoff), Man-Wolf II 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg10 
Kraven has been hired by two celebrities to lead them on a hunt. Spider-Man stumbles by fighting the Man-Wolf, but Kraven defeats him when he removes his gem. Its not Jameson, but some guy Kraven hired so they would have someone to hunt. Since nothing illegal has happened Spider-Man cant drop them off with the police, but he webs them up anyway after scolding them. 

References: 
Spider-Man is in his classic Red & Blues. 

This is the first Kraven, so sometime before Web of Spider-Man 31(& by extension, ASM 293). Also, when Spider-Man lists off a bunch of villains, he includes Gibbon, Vermin, Grizzly, Kangaroo, Puma, & Gorilla-Man. Puma would put this after ASM 258 and the mention of Gorilla-Man would be to some unseen adventure. So were looking at somewhere between ASM 258 & ASM 293, before Spider-Man starts wearing the black suit exclusively. 

Full moon over New York. 

Spider-Man Family v2 5/3 
Reprint of Amazing Spider-man 179. 

Spider-Man Family v2 5/4 
Reprint of Marvel Team-Up 21. 

Spider-Man Family v2 5/5 
Reprint of some issue of Spider-Man J. 

Does anyone have any placement suggestions?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 21, 2007 08:08 pm 
By JLH

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Morbius is a living vampire. For some reason I want to say this is after FF 268, which would place this after Secret Wars. 
<<<

Morbius was cured at that point.

			*	*	*

Dec 21, 2007 09:58 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

He still had the upturned nose and was all pale and stuff in FF 268, right? That's what he looks like here, he's just wearing his high collar suit. He's in control of his faculties, he's not drinking blood, and he's trying to cure his buddy, not himself. I don't know, I guess I'm thinking that the failed attempt to save Sue's baby got him in the frame of mind to try anything to save his friend.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 23, 2007 03:24 am 
By dimadick

"the mention of Gorilla-Man would be to some unseen adventure." 

Any chance Spider-Man was peripherally involved in the events of "Defenders" vol. 1 #21 (March, 1975)? 

At night the Headmen (including Gorilla Man/Arthur Nagan) cause the fall of an extradimensional "black rain" in New York City. Sleeping New Yorkers are affected and go on a rampage. The Headmen use the citywide chaos to go looting throughout the night. 

Though the issue depicts only the Defenders reacting to the situation and meeting the villains, fellow New Yorker Spider-Man may have come across them or at least heard the tale after investigating.

			*	*	*

Dec 23, 2007 12:49 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sure, although it seems odd that Gorilla Man would be included on a short list of animal-inspired villains Spidey rattles off years later. Spidey certainly has faced enough of those directly to have to conjure up Nagan. Funny how the mind works...

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 23, 2007 07:42 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Is it possible that the story could occur after Spidey met the Headmen in S-H2 3?

			*	*	*

Dec 24, 2007 01:18 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Nope. Peter's single in this story. ASM@ 21 came out in 1987 & S-H2 3 came out in 1989.-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 40

Subject: Alpha Flight #13

Dec 28, 2007 08:51 am 
By Ant-Man

Over on the John Byrne Forum, they were discussing Alpha Flight #13 http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22665&PN=1&totPosts=53. 

During the discussion, someone asked Byrne "did the early portion of the dream sequence actually happen as shown, or was that all strictly Heather's imagination?", to which Byrne replied "You are the first person to raise that question. And, yes, that is precisely what I intended. Memory becomes dream." 

That being said, would the opening sequence of AF 13 constitute a FB appearance for Alpha Flight and Wolverine (up to the part where Mac's remains, engulfed in flames, burst from the grave), as it is Heather's memories of the funeral service?

			*	*	*

Thread 41

Subject: M/CP 99/4

Dec 30, 2007 08:10 pm 
By cweed4

The first 3 parts of this comic have listings but I couldn't find anything for the Spidey story. So I'll make a stab at this. 

MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS 99 pt.4 (1992) 


Summary: 
This is a pretty simple and fun story depicting Peter adjusting to life as a newlywed. MJ grabs the wrong coat on the way out to a photo shoot without realizing that Pete has some film in the pocket he needs to drop off at the Daily Bugle. Mayhem ensues as Pete tries to track her down. After a fruitless search he calls it a day and gets a pizza. MJ arrives home tired from her long day. But, she also has a funny story to share. Turns out she grabbed the wrong coat going to work, which Pete had left some film in, so she dropped the pics off at the bugle for him.  

Continuity clues: 
1. Black suit Spidey 
2. Peter & MJ married 
3. The are living at the Chelsea St. apartment 
4. Pete selling photos to the Bugle 
5. MJ working as a model 

Analysis: 
The first two clues are pretty much all that's needed here. They restrict this story to some point after the honeymoon but before Venom's first appearance. Given the nature and tone of the story I would lean towards placing it closer to the former. This relatively small chronology window does have a few potential gaps in which to place this story. Some of these are less appealing than others- 

after Kraven's Last Hunt: with Spidey being buried under gound for awhile, he probably didn't have a chance to snap any photos.
after Mad Dog Ward: Same explanation as KLH, just replace 'under gound' with psychiatric hospital.
ASM 296-297: This 2 part story w/ Doc Ock already features Pete selling pics to the Bugle
WOSM 35-36: With MJ getting kidnapped/injured during this story its doubtful he worried about his photo responsibilities
after Sin Eater Released: Pete's mood and response to the events in this story don't lend to him trying to sell any photos about it
WOSM 37: Pete skips a photo assignment to follow MJ

The story in ASM '96/2 establishes what appears to be his first webslinging since returning from the honeymoon. There is certainly no reason to assume the film roll in M/CP 99/4 is from any established story but since I'm just looking for a best fit I did use that idea as a guide. 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 
ASM@ 21 
SM:PL 
ASM '96/2 
*M/CP 99/4 
WOSM 31 
ASM 293-BTS 

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 
ASM@ 21 
SM:PL 
ASM '96/2 
*M/CP 99/4 
ASM 293 



*Note: This issue analysis does not account for the events of ASM 545 

			*	*	*

Thread 42

Subject: Analysis for "What If" 2007 issues

Dec 21, 2007 11:52 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

The first two "What If" specials released this year are strictly non-canon. 

"What If: Planet Hulk" doesn't really have a narrative sequence in either of it's stories, and is set entirely in a different universe. 

"What If: Annihilation" has a narrative sequence given by Uatu, but this has to be an Uatu from a different universe. At the start of the story, he's narrating from amidst the rubble of New York City, (which was destroyed by the Annihilation Wave) and from there we flashback to how the Annihilation Wave came to Earth. The entire story is set within the confines of this alternate universe. As the story progresses, Uatu even helps Earth's heroes in defeating the Annihilation Wave, and sacrifices the moon to stop the bad guys. Thus, I really don't think this is canon in any form. 

Which brings us to the two "What If" stories that I do believe have canon sequences in them. I'll do one tonight, and the other tomorrow... 

"What If: X-Men: Rise & Fall of the Shi'Ar Empire": 

Written by Christopher Yost 
Artwork by the immortal Larry Stroman!!! 

This story is narrated by a character named "Jahf", (not the Watcher). I notice that Jahf has an entry in the MCP, so I suspect he's some sort of Shi'Ar character that I'm just unfamiliar with, but his narration appears to be set in the regular Marvel Universe. 

I'm going to break down pg. 1, as the first few panels are set in the regular Marvel Universe. 

Panel 1: We see a shot from space of the battle occuring over the M'Kraan Crystal's planet. This is during Uncanny X-Men #485 and 486. Jahf narrates, "I am called Jahf. I was here at the beginning, and I will be here at the end. The end of all that is." 

Panel 2: He narrates, "As I stand guard at the M'Kraan Crystal, I see them fight. Some fight to bring about the end before it's time." 

We don't actually see him in the panel, but we are shown rehashes of Vulcan and Deathbird standing next to the M'Kraan Crystal, (right after Vulcan killed D'Ken, as shown in Uncanny X-Men #485). 

Panel 3: He narrates, "Some fight against the end. I see this battle, but from where I sit, I see so much more." We see Havok and Lorna blasting at Gladiator, with Havok shouting, "Give it all you got, Lorna!" 

Panel 4: Jahf narrates, "I see across the multiverse, as the M'Kraan crystal is unique across all realities." We see a panel of Darwin being knocked back a little bit by a blast. He mutters, "Uh...Gabriel..no..." 

Panel 5: This is set in a different reality, I feel. Here, we see a close up on Darwin's eye, as this time he sees the blast coming... 

Panel 6: And he dodges out of it's way. Jahf narrates, "A random shot going this way instead of that changes everything." 

On the next page, instead of diving in after Prof. X into the M'Kraan Crystal, we see him knocking Vulcan into the Crystal and rescuing Prof. X. 

So in other words, the divergence point is a stray blast that kept Darwin from getting to the Professor in time in our regular universe didn't occur in this alternate universe. 

The rest of the story shows that somehow Vulcan merged with the Phoenix force inside the M'Kraan Crystal's "White Hot" room, and he reemerged from the crystal to obliterate the planet. He then destroyed the entire Shi'Ar Empire with the Phoenix force, and was only stopped from destroying Earth by the Summer's family uniting to defeat him, (the best scene in the whole issue is where we learn that Vulcan destroyed the entire Annihilation Wave all by himself). 

Vulcan is destroyed somehow, and sent back to the White Hot room, wherein he has reverted to an innocent little child, who is taken care of by Jean Grey. 

The last page has two panels: 

Page 22, Panel 1: Jean Grey is holding a young Gabriel Summers in her arms. 

Panel 2: We finally see Jahf's face: he's observing Jean holding Gabriel inside the Crystal. He narrates, "I am called Jahf. I was here at the beginning, and I will be here at the end. But the end is not here yet." 

So I would assume this scene of Jahf peering into the M'Kraan Crystal is set back here in the regular Marvel Universe.

Last edited by Kevin W. on 22 Dec 2007 01:42 am, edited 3 times in total. 

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Dec 22, 2007 12:20 am 
By SeanCurtin

Yes, the Jahf seen in What If?: Shi'ar Empire should be the same character already listed in the MCP. It's already been shown in canon that he (or, at least, the crystal) exist in, and remember events from, different realities: in GAM&XT 3, the Age of Apocalypse timeline's Jahf referred to his encounter with the Earth-616 X-Men in UX 108 as having happened to him personally.

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Dec 22, 2007 11:55 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

"What If: Civil War" 
Written by Ed Brubaker, Kevin Grevioux, and Christos Gage 

There is an opening, middle, and closing segment set in the real Marvel Universe. Tony Stark is at the graveside monument dedicated to Captain America. He is all alone in the rain until he is confronted by a figure whom Tony refers to as a "stranger", (a figure in a trenchcoat who's face we can't make out, but he has glowing eyes). 

Tony is questioning the choices he's made, so the Stranger shows him what would've occured in 2 different realities: 

The first story is titled, "What if Captain America led ALL the heroes against registration?" In this reality, Iron Man died when injected with the Extremis virus, leaving the other heroes to defeat Mallen, (as depicted in Iron Man v4 #1-6). Without Iron Man around, after the Stamford incident, Captain America rallies ALL of Earth's heroes to his side. The government uses Sentinels to hunt down the heroes. (The only reason Mr. Fantastic seems to go along with Captain America is because Sue is killed in the first attack by a Sentinel. Apparently, grief overcomes logic). The war between Captain America's "heroes" and the government escalates, until Henry Gyrich dispatches his army of Thor Clones. Captain America, and all supervillians and superheroes are killed. Henry Gyrich is elected President of the United States, with Maria Hill being his personal second in command. 

(best scene in this is Spidey being killed in the opening battle against the Sentinels. Henry Gyrich takes off Spidey's mask and says, "Hmp. Just some guy.") 

Tony Stark thinks, "Then I was right! We had to support the registration!" 

But the Stranger then shows him a different universe, which is titled, "What If Iron Man lost the Civil War?" but that's not quite accurate. It should be titled, "What if Iron Man and Captain America learned how to friggin' compromise?!?" 

The story starts with the fateful moment in Civil War Issue #3 when Captain America and Iron Man are about to shake hands, but Captain America shocks Iron Man with the secret weapon instead. Here in this universe, Tony speaks more honestly, saying he needs Captain America's help. Captain America doesn't use the zapper that knocked out Stark's armor, instead they agree to talk. 

But just then, the Thor Clone breaks loose and goes crazy, (it was activated by a SHIELD agent who still didn't trust Captain America). Iron Man and Captain America unite the heroes against the berserk Thor Clone, (and this time, Goliath doesn't die). 

After they defeat the Thor Clone, a truce is called. Captain America and Iron Man meet in private, and a compromise is proposed: Instead of the government being in control of the registration, Captain America is placed in charge of the registration. Heroes won't be policed by the government, but will be policed by the Avengers, which Captain America will lead. 

Iron Man and Cap make their announcement to the media, (without letting the government know their intentions). The public rallies around the compromise. The government is forced to alter the superhero registration act to allow Captain America to be in charge of registration. 

This ushers in a new Golden Age of superheroes, who are once again accepted by the public. Captain America and Iron Man remain steadfast friends. 

Back in the regular Marvel Universe, Stark is crushed after being shown this. The story ends with the stranger leaving Tony to mourn in private. 

On the editorial page in the back of the book, the editor notes, "For those who are wondering, this story takes place between the scene of Captain America's symbolic burial at Arlington, and his official burial three days later by Iron Man in the Arctic where he was originally found...as chronicled in "Fallen Son: the Death of Captain America - Iron Man". So yeah, it's definently canon. 

In regards to this "Stranger" character, he says that he can only watch, while Tony is able to influence the future, so I believed at first glance that this was Uatu, (descended to mortal form, for some reason). On the other hand, the credits to this story include a part which reads, "With acknowledgement to the works of Frank Miller." Is this Stranger a creation of Frank Miller from an earlier "What If" story he might have done?

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Dec 22, 2007 04:58 pm 
By Peter Fabricius

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
"What If: Civil War"
In regards to this "Stranger" character, he says that he can only watch, while Tony is able to influence the future, so I believed at first glance that this was Uatu, (descended to mortal form, for some reason). On the other hand, the credits to this story include a part which reads, "With acknowledgement to the works of Frank Miller." Is this Stranger a creation of Frank Miller from an earlier "What If" story he might have done?
<<<

In What If? (vol. 1) #35 Uatu visits Matt Murdoc, at Elektra's grave, and tells him what could have happened if Elektra had lived. 
It was pencilled and written by Miller. 
Uatu was dressed in an trenchcoat and used an umbrella. (It was raining) 
He didn't have glowing eyes, but was clearly bald.

Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

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Dec 22, 2007 08:26 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

The trenchcoat and the umbrella match, (and the character kinda looked bald as well). I'm betting it's the same character...though I'm still having trouble understanding why Uatu would descend to a "mortal" form and have a one on one chat with a Marvel hero...in later "What If" issues, he's usually just talking to us, the audience.Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Dec 22, 2007 09:12 pm 
By Starman

What If? 35 (volume one, first story) 

See Archive 85.

- Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

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Dec 22, 2007 09:41 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Nowhere in WI? 35/1 is the figure identified in any way. If it's said to be Uatu, it's elsewhere (And a bad idea, IMO, but...). 

And the figure in WI?:CW is entirely consistent in all respects bar the glowing eyes with the figure from WI? 35/1.

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Dec 23, 2007 12:27 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sean Curtin wrote: 
>>>
Yes, the Jahf seen in What If?: Shi'ar Empire should be the same character already listed in the MCP. 
<<<

I would say it's safe to add this comic to Jahf's chronology, but it doesn't appear that there's any new material to add for other characters. So, it appears that Jahf's chronology now ends with... 

UX 485-BTS 
WI?: XRFSE 1 

For the calendar, I'll note that Jahf is watching the events of UX 485 but won't add a separate entry for WI?:XRFSE 1.

Paul B.

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Dec 23, 2007 12:41 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin W. wrote: 
>>>
On the editorial page in the back of the book, the editor notes, "For those who are wondering, this story takes place between the scene of Captain America's symbolic burial at Arlington, and his official burial three days later by Iron Man in the Arctic where he was originally found...as chronicled in "Fallen Son: the Death of Captain America - Iron Man". So yeah, it's definently canon. 
<<<

So it's sometime between CA5 26 and FS:DOCA 5 (18-23). I'd place it right after CW:FL 11 (15-24), in which Ben Urich and Sally Floyd visit Stark and confront him with evidence about Stark's manipulation of events. Stark breaks down after Ben and Sally leave. I figure the remorseful Stark is then motivated to visit Cap's monument.

Paul B.

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Dec 23, 2007 06:18 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

>>>
I would say it's safe to add this comic to Jahf's chronology, but it doesn't appear that there's any new material to add for other characters. So, it appears that Jahf's chronology now ends with... 
<<<

I myself was left wondering how long Jahf was watching that sequence of events in another universe...the final page shows only a close up on Jahf's face, but I'm unsure if whether the battle is still raging behind him, or whether he's been checking in on this other dimension for some time, and he sees the ending with Jean Grey and Gabriel days later.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
So it's sometime between CA5 26 and FS:DOCA 5 (18-23). I'd place it right after CW:FL 11 (15-24), in which Ben Urich and Sally Floyd visit Stark and confront him with evidence about Stark's manipulation of events. Stark breaks down after Ben and Sally leave. I figure the remorseful Stark is then motivated to visit Cap's monument.
<<<

That's a good order for the sequence of events. 

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Dec 31, 2007 02:17 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
So it's sometime between CA5 26 and FS:DOCA 5 (18-23).
<<<

I'm getting caught up on some reading, including these What If...?s, and I'd like to point out that the editorial page in the back of What If...? Civil War #1 has an ad: 

Fallen Son: The Death of Captain America Premire HC
(including)
Captain America #25
Fallen Son: Wolverine
Fallen Son: New Avengers
Fallen Son: Captain America
Fallen Son: Spider-Man
Fallen Son: Iron Man

I know we've brought this up before, but the indicia in those issues didn't have an issue number. The covers didn't have issue numbers. And the ad for their collected edition doesn't list issue numbers. So remind me: 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
FS:DOCA 5
<<<

Where is the issue number coming from? Because honestly, I had forgotten the release order of them when I saw the ad, and I had to double check to see if they were listed that way. If I can't remember which issue #3 is,(and I'm more likely to remember than say, Adam at the comic shop) then I think they should be listed as: 

FS-DOCA: W 

Or somesuch, etc, etc. 

-Daron Jensen

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Dec 31, 2007 08:33 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
I know we've brought this up before, but the indicia in those issues didn't have an issue number.
<<<

Actually, every issue has a number in its indicia. 

Wolverine is noted as "No. 1" 
Avengers is noted as "No. 2" 
Captain America is noted as "No. 1" (erroneously) 
Spider-Man is noted as "No. 4" 
Iron Man is noted as "No. 5"

Paul B.

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Thread 43

Subject: Wolverine: Firebreak 1

Dec 20, 2007 03:34 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine: Firebreak 1 
February, 2008 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22 
In the middle of a forest fire, Wolverine saves a family from a bear on fire. Hes blind, having his eyes burned out, so he has the family act as his eyes as he guides them away from the fire. They come across a couple of Hydra agents, and Wolverine discovers that they accidentally set the fire. After fighting a few more Hydra agents off, he sets an explosion to suck the oxygen out of the air, breaking the fire. With his eyes now healed, he sets off to take care of the Hydra lab. 

References: 
All in one night, a night with a full moon, wherever this is. 

Wolverine is in his current Astonishing outfit. 

Id say this takes place shortly before Wolverines recent appearance in Cable/Deadpool, where Wolverine is on the hunt for Hydra grunts. 

Wolverine: Firebreak 1/2 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1pn1-pg1pn2: one night 
Wolverine approaches Carmelos base. 
Pg1pn3-FB: earlier that night 
Wolverine talks to a friend Chief Lacey about his captive son, whos been taken by Carmelo. 
Pg1pn4(of 4)-pg3pn4: same night as (1:2) 
Wolverine infiltrates the base and gets the kid. 
Pg3pn5-FB: several years ago 
Chief Lacey kicks his son Samuel out of his house. 
Pg3pn6(of 6)-pg9: same night as (3:4) 
Wolverine is attacked by Carmelos thugs, but he kills them after being set on fire. He discovers that Samuel has been poisoned and that there is no antidote, so he kills him, too. 
Pg10: the next day 
Wolverine informs Chief Lacey that his son died bravely, and that Carmelo has made it to Madripoor. 

References: 
Another full moon! 

Wolverine is in his current Astonishing outfit. 

Really, this could be placed anywhere in Wolverines current chronology.-Daron Jensen

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Dec 23, 2007 01:06 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
Id say this takes place shortly before Wolverines recent appearance in Cable/Deadpool, where Wolverine is on the hunt for Hydra grunts. 
<<<

Good point. I've placed these stories thusly in Wolverine's chronology: 
X 203 
W:F 1/2-FB (1:3) 
W:F 1/2 
W:F 1 
C&DP 43 
C&DP 44 
WWH:X 1

Paul B.

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Dec 31, 2007 06:20 pm 
By muck

Paul and Col_Fury, thanks for the analysis here. 

Paul, when you mention placing this issue in Wolverine's chronology, is there any updated chronology out there or have I missed something? When looking at Wolverine's entry, it stops at W3 19. 

Thanks!

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Dec 31, 2007 07:21 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Currently, books from the past several years are taking a back seat in the listings, so we can attack closing the early 90's Gap, and catch up some on entering the corrections provided here in the Forum. 

Paul's speaking more in terms of his Calendar (link at the bottom of the page). 


watching: kentucky vs florida state

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Dec 31, 2007 07:58 pm 
By muck

Ahh, thanks for the information. 

Was wondering about that. 

Thanks to all of you for the hard work. 

As to Kentucky vs Florida State, hope you're pulling for Kentucky as it's not looking good for FSU.

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Thread 44

Subject: Marvel Holiday Special 1

Dec 23, 2007 05:53 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Marvel Holiday Special 1 
Indicia: February, 2008 
Actual: December, 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Spider-Man(Peter Parker), J Jonah Jameson, Mary Jane, Iceman(Bobby Drake), Professor Xavier-BTS 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg15: December 24 
Wolverine is making his way through the sewers when he comes across a deactivated Sentinel. He calls the mansion looking for Professor X, but Bobby answers the phone in the middle of a party. Meanwhile at the Daily Bugle, Peter tries to sell some photos to Jonah, but he turns him down. Back in the sewers, the Sentinel smacks Wolverine; its piloted by a laid-off mall Santa. Petes making his way across town when the Sentinel starts rampaging through the streets. He turns into Spider-Man to fight it and teams up with Wolverine; together they stop it and the Santa is arrested. During the fight, Spider-Man lost the cake he was hauling around, but Wolverine has an idea. Later, Peter and Mary Jane go to Aunt Mays party and Peter has a new cake. 
Pg16: December 26 
Peter calls up Jonah to ask about the picture of Wolverine baking a cake in todays paper. Meanwhile, Wolverine and Iceman are on the Daily Bugles roof with a giant iceball 

References: 
Wolverine is in his Astonishing uniform, and Professor X is at the mansion. Professor X sent Wolverine to find the Sentinel, and Professor X is the one throwing the party at the mansion. 

With Wolverine in his Astonishing uniform, and with Professor X at the mansion, this has to be relatively recent. Wolverine didnt start wearing this until Astonishing 1, but by that time Professor X was in Genosha, then depowered and hiding, then in space. 

So for Wolverine, Iceman, & Professor X, this is either before Rise & Fall of the Shiar Empire, before Messiah CompleX, or after Messiah CompleX. 

Spider-Man is wearing his classic Red & Blues, and hes selling photos to the Bugle. Someone mentions that Aunt May lives in Queens, but he doesnt respond. Peter was hoping for a romantic Christmas Eve with Mary Jane. 

In almost all likelihood, this is going to be pre-One More Day for Spider-Man. If Aunt May is living in Queens, this would be pre-ASM 515, but I dont think that lines up with Professor Xs time with the X-Men. She could be living at Avengers Tower, and Peter just didnt correct the person who asked if she lived in Queens. 

If all of that is the case,(and I might be off on something, Im doing this on autopilot) then this would be the Christmas Eve during Civil War. If so, Paul B might have to move when Professor X & company leave for space.(which is currently around December 10 or so) 

Marvel Holiday Special 1/2 

Appearances: 
Lightspeed(Julie Power), Turbo(Mickey Musashi), Darkhawk(Chris Powell), Ricochet(Johnny Gallo), Red Ronin(Namie) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg10: December 24 
The Loners gang exchange Christmas presents, then go hang out at the mall dressed as Santa and some elves. Later that night, Red Ronin starts writing in her new diary. 

References: 
Even though Red Ronin mentions she just celebrated her first Christmas today, it cant be December 25. Malls arent open on December 25, so it has to be the 24th. Also, the events of the Loners mini are referenced, so this is after that. In addition, said events are treated as relatively recent maybe a few weeks to a month. 

Marvel Holiday Special 1/2 

Appearances: 
Mr. Fantastic, Crystal, Lockjaw, Trask,(Bolivar? Whichever ones alive & making Sentinels), Namor, Volstagg, Hogun, Silver Surfer, Black Panther, Uatu, Mangaverse Spider-man, Mangaverse Cyclops, Mangaverse Wolverine, a bunch of Skrulls 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6: December 24 
At the Daily Bugle, Irving Griffen(Head of Features) tells Lester to put together a holiday feature. He goes to the Baxter Building to interview Mr. Fantastic, and he sends him across the planet to interview other people instead. Lester goes to Attilan and chats with Crystal. He then goes to Latveria and interviews a peasant. He then goes to Detroit and interviews the head of Trask Industries while they manufacture Sentinels. He then goes to the Pacific Ocean, where namor tells him hes misquoting him. He then goes to Asgard and chats with Volstagg & Hogun. He then goes to the outer atmosphere and chats with the Silver Surfer. He then goes to the Skrull Homeworld where a Skrull asks if he has access to import information and secrets.(he tells him thats his editor, not him) He then goes to Wakanda where the Black Panther shows him his thousand foot tall Christmas tree. He then goes to the Mangaverse where Cyclops, Spider-Man, & Wolverine tell him they celebrate Setsu-Bun & the Japanese New Year. He then goes to the moon(again) and chats with Uatu. He then returns to the Baxter Building where Mr. Fantastic declines comment. Lester goes back to the Daily Bugle and turns in his assignment, and his editor(whos now a Skrull) gives him a raise. 

References: 
Its an unadvertised Secret Invasion tie-in!(and wow, that was a fast Skrull-switch on that editor) 

Since Hogun & Volstagg are here, this is pre-Disassembled.(or rather, before Asgard is destroyed, which was around the time of Disassembled) It cant be after the Thor relaunch, because by then Attilan had been destroyed.(I think) That, and by then the Skrulls would have absolutely no interest in an editor at a newspaper.(if they ever would in the first place) So December of Year 21, I guess.

-Daron Jensen

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Dec 23, 2007 10:30 am 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Since Hogun & Volstagg are here, this is pre-Disassembled.(or rather, before Asgard is destroyed, which was around the time of Disassembled) It cant be after the Thor relaunch, because by then Attilan had been destroyed.(I think) That, and by then the Skrulls would have absolutely no interest in an editor at a newspaper.(if they ever would in the first place) So December of Year 21, I guess.
<<<

And it must be before Annihilation, because after that the Skrulls don't have a planet to call their own.

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Dec 23, 2007 06:50 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
If all of that is the case,(and I might be off on something, Im doing this on autopilot) then this would be the Christmas Eve during Civil War. If so, Paul B might have to move when Professor X & company leave for space.(which is currently around December 10 or so) 
<<<

Given the Spidey/Aunt May chronolgy here, though, I wonder if the principle of Occam's Razor would place this story on the Christmas of the year before (Year 22). My theory: 

The X-Men have a big Christmas blow-out on Dec. 21 of that year (as seen in X 165). Xavier and Magneto (in Genosha) appear as astral forms to survey the merriment. Eric suggests that Xavier join his students, but Xavier replies that he isn't ready to answer certain questions yet. Right after this, the students go home and the X-Men take off for the actual holidays. Scott and Emma remain with Kevin (as seen in M/HOL 2004 1/2). The three actually spend time together on Dec. 24. 

But Xavier has changed his mind about being with his X-Men for Christmas. He decides to throw them a party and contacts some of the wayward X-Men to ask them to return to the Institute the evening of Christmas Eve -- a surprise for Scott. Logan is invited but doesn't go (so he knows Charley is there). Bobby responds, but we don't know how many others attend. Xavier and the partiers show up just after the end of M/HOL 2004 1/2. That's where we pick up this story. 

Peter appears in SPECSM3 27 on "Christmas" between pages 15 and 16 of this tale. 

P.S.: How should this issue be cited -- M/HOL 2007 or M/HOL3? Does the year appear on the cover or indicia title

Paul B.

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Dec 24, 2007 01:32 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
And it must be before Annihilation, because after that the Skrulls don't have a planet to call their own.
<<<

Excellent point. 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
...Xavier has changed his mind about being with his X-Men for Christmas. He decides to throw them a party and contacts some of the wayward X-Men to ask them to return to the Institute the evening of Christmas Eve -- a surprise for Scott. Logan is invited but doesn't go (so he knows Charley is there). Bobby responds, but we don't know how many others attend. Xavier and the partiers show up...
<<<

But Wolverine was sent on the Sentinel mission by Xavier. If he just popped in one day to throw a party, would he be sending anyone on missions? And at this point, would anyone be listening to him?(not that anyone is really listening to him post-HoM/Civil War/post-Return From Space, but at least he's a presence at the mansion) 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Does the year appear on the cover or indicia title
<<<

Good question! The indicia reads "Marvel Holiday Special 2007 No. 1, February, 2008"

-Daron Jensen

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Dec 27, 2007 10:03 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
But Wolverine was sent on the Sentinel mission by Xavier. If he just popped in one day to throw a party, would he be sending anyone on missions? And at this point, would anyone be listening to him?(not that anyone is really listening to him post-HoM/Civil War/post-Return From Space, but at least he's a presence at the mansion) 
<<<

Well, I'm sure someone could craft a BTS story in which the brief return of Xavier and Logan's mission would make some sense, especially with some thoughtful dialog. In the larger scheme of the MU, I'm hard-pressed to put this elsewhere. I'm not saying this solution is ideal, but it may be the easiest. There have been plenty of awkward placements we've had to make lately with lots of BTS manipulations to make them work; I guess this one joins the growing pile. 

Thanks for the analysis, Fury!

Paul B.

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Dec 27, 2007 02:11 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Wait -- explain again what's wrong with placing this just pre-Civil War #2? Prof. X is at the mansion then, and Peter's life hasn't yet been turned upside-down. I'd rather place it in a slot where it fits without having to make up BTS explanations for characters' presences, even if that slot isn't strictly "on Christmas". 

-Jeph!

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Dec 28, 2007 01:33 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Occam's Razor is about eliminating assumptions, right? So... 

We know that Xavier had nothing to do with the X-Men while he was in Genosha with Magnus. X-Men 165 solidifies that. Therefore, we can't assume he did. However, Xavier did have something to do with the X-Men post-HoM; he was staying at the mansion. Also, Wolverine called for Xavier at the mansion, he didn't contact Xavier telepathically. This would fit with Xavier's post-HoM pre-Rise & Fall status. 

We know that this is on December 24, and given the above, specifically the December 24 during Civil War. This fits with Spider-Man's status at the time. Spider-Man's trying to sell photos to the Bugle for some extra cash, he's married to Mary Jane, and Aunt May is throwing a party. Someone asks if she still lives in Queens, but the question is unanswered. 

Given the above, this story occurs around the holidays during Civil War, becoming a nail-point for the Calendar. This would necessitate moving Uncanny X-Men 475(and the following issues) forward to after December 24. If for whatever reason that can't be moved, then we'll have to say this story shows an early Christmas party, but not quite on December 24. 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Thanks for the analysis, Fury!No problem!
<<<

-Daron Jensen

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Dec 31, 2007 11:17 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

If, for Xavier's sake, we're forced to place M/HOL '07 1 during the time Xavier was at the Institute between X:DG 6 (1-24) and UX 476, then I think the dates of December 24 and 26 will need to be ignored. Fury, aside from the mall Santa, you didn't note specific holiday or seasonal references. I'm not sure that it's clear that Xavier's and May's parties were even specified as holiday parties. A cake for a holiday party? 

I did some checking and discovered that W3 49 is supposed to occur on Christmas Eve. In this story, Logan and Kitty are Christmas shopping. Looking at the bigger picture, we see that W3 49 postdates W3 46. W3 46 postdates X188-FB (4-17) because of a reference to Rogue's absorbing Emma's powers. And X 188-FB (4-17) happens at about the time Xavier leaves for space in UX 476. Thus, if M/HOL '07 1 occurs before UX 476, it must occur long enough before the Christmas Eve in W3 46 for all that other stuff to happen. 

However, it's not tremendoisly long before. I think the "laid-off Santa" could actually work if he were just not hired during a time in November in which malls were hiring Santas. 

Now consider Spidey's chronology. Peter is working for the Daily Bugle in M/HOL '07 1, so it has to be before Spidey reveals his identity in ASM 532 (18-19). And given Logan's obsession with Nitro around this time, I'm inclined to place M/HOL '07 1 before the Stamford incident -- thus before W3 42. The classic Spidey costume seen in M/HOL '07 must be version 2.0 of the Iron Spidey costume mimicking the classic costume. 

So, I've placed M/HOL '07 1 on November 9 and 11, just before Stamford and during Santa-hiring season. Here are how my calendar entries look... 

MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 2007 #1 (1-15) 
One day, two days before M/HOL 07 1 (16). Because Xavier is at the Institute and Logan has his Astonishing costume, this segment must occur after X:DG 6 (1-24). Logan makes his way through the sewers and encounters a deactivated Sentinel. He calls the mansion looking for Xavier, but Bobby answers the phone in the middle of a party (which I theorize is not a holiday party; perhaps its Xaviers birthday). Meanwhile at the Daily Bugle, Peter Parker tries to sell some photos to Jonah, but he turns him down. Back in the sewers, the Sentinel smacks Wolverine; its piloted by a laid-off mall Santa. (I theorize that this segment occurs during a time that malls are hiring Santas and this man was not hired.) Peter makes his way across town when the Sentinel starts rampaging through the streets. He dons what must be version 2.0 of the Iron Spider costume mimicking the classic costume to fight the Sentinel. He teams up with Wolverine and together they stop it. The Santa is arrested. During the fight, Spidey lost the cake he was hauling around, but Wolverine has an idea. Later, Peter and Mary Jane go to Aunt Mays party (which I theorize is not a holiday party, nor is it a birthday party for Peter, M.J. or May  perhaps Anna Watson?) and Peter has a new cake. The reference to "December 24" must be topical. 

MARVEL HOLIDAY SPECIAL 2007 #1 (16) 
One day, two days after M/HOL07 1 (1-15). This segment supposedly occurs on December 26, but because W3 49 is supposed to occur on December 24, and because that story occurs after W3 46, which follows X188-FB (4-17), which occurs at about the time of Xaviers departure for space in UX 476, I conclude that the party held by Xavier here occurs earlier; it must occur before UX 475-FB (3-5) and likely before X:DG 6 (25-28). Given the interplay of W3, CW:X, and CW that follows this point in time, the classic Spidey costume seen here must be version 2.0 of the Iron Spider costume. The fact that Peter is working for the Bugle actually places this story before the revelation of Spideys identity in ASM 532 (18-19). Given that, at that time, Logan was obsessed with Nitro, Im inclined to place this segment before W3 42 (1-4/5), the start of the Civil War. Peter calls up Jonah to ask about the picture of Wolverine baking a cake in todays paper. Meanwhile, Logan and Iceman are on the Daily Bugles roof with a giant ice ball (of Bobbys making). 

How about it?

Paul B.

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Dec 31, 2007 10:35 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Fury, aside from the mall Santa, you didn't note specific holiday or seasonal references. I'm not sure that it's clear that Xavier's and May's parties were even specified as holiday parties. A cake for a holiday party? 
<<<

Wolverine's inner monologue mentions that it's Christmas Eve. But given everything else, I think we can safely ignore that. 

And you're right, the cake makes no sense. 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
How about it?
<<<

I like the reasoning for the mall Santa. Looks good to me!

-Daron Jensen

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Thread 45

Subject: Apparently, JMS wanted his name off OMD...

Dec 4, 2007 07:22 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Seemingly, he had to be guilted into letting his name go on the last two issues: 

JMS, http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-17697 wrote:
>>>
I'll be honest: there was a point where I made the
decision, and told Joe, that I was going to take my name off the last
two issues of the OMD arc. Eventually Joe talked me out of that
decision because at the end of the day, I don't want to sabotage Joe
or Marvel
<<<

Bodes well really, doesn't it?

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Dec 5, 2007 12:39 am 
By Ross

How depressing. I enjoyed Sensational Spider-Man #41 until the last few pages, which made my stomach sink with that feeling of "Oh no, please tell me that's not where they're going with this..." All those issues of building real emotional resonance with the Aunt May situation, down the tubes - and the ultimate deus ex machina, to boot. If I were JMS, I wouldn't want to be known as the guy who ended his Spider-Man run this way, either.

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Thread 46

Subject: Minus 1 Flashback issues

Dec 17, 2007 05:27 am 
By wolframbane

Would anyone have a complied master list of all the Marvel Flashback 'Minus 1' issues? Thanx!!

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Dec 17, 2007 06:24 am 
By JD

From http://www.maelmill-insi.de/UHBMCC/SAF.HTM#A121 : 

Alpha Flight: In the Beginning -1 (1997/07) 
The Amazing Spider-Man (I) -1 (1997/07) 
Cable -1 (1997/07) 
Daredevil (I) -1 (1997/07) 
Deadpool -1 (1997/07) 
Elektra (I) -1 (1997/07) 
Excalibur (I) -1 (1997/07) 
Generation X -1 (1997/07) 
Ghost Rider (II) (Dan Ketch) -1 (1997/07) 
The Incredible Hulk (II) -1 (1997/07) 
Journey into Mystery (I) -1 (1997/07) 
Ka-Zar: Sibling Rivalry -1 (1997/07) 
Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man -1 (1997/07) 
The Sensational Spider-Man (I) -1 (1997/07) 
Silver Surfer (III) -1 (1997/07) 
Spider-Man (I) -1 (1997/07) 
Thunderbolts -1 (1997/07) 
Uncanny X-Men -1 (1997/07) 
Untold Tales of Spider-Man -1 (1997/07) 
Venom: Seed of Darkness -1 (1997/07) 
What if? (II) -1 (1997/07) 
Wolverine (II) -1 (1997/07) 
X-Factor (I) -1 (1997/07) 
X-Force (I) -1 (1997/07) 
X-Man -1 (1997/07) 
X-Men (II) -1 (1997/07)

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Thread 47

Subject: non-canon list?

Dec 18, 2007 05:00 pm 
By TheDeuce

i thought i saw a list of non-canon books on here once, but i can't seem to find it. is there one? if so, where might i find it?

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Dec 18, 2007 05:38 pm 
By JD

http://www.chronologyproject.com/faq.htm#Q18

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Dec 19, 2007 03:06 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

It can be updated in the FAQ, just as easily. 


watching: oliver!

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Dec 21, 2007 12:22 am 
By TheDeuce

how often is it updated? when was the last time? if we made a thread for it than everyone would be aware of when we decide a book is non-canon, in case they miss the thread where it's discussed. either way, i'm okay with it, i just think it'd make more sense to have it in the forum, updated as things happen, and then bigger updates for the FAQ.

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Dec 21, 2007 11:34 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Uh, about a week ago. It's a standing list. I don't really see the need to issue an alert, every time a book is added to the non-canon list. If you miss the thread where it was discussed, just...check the list. 


watching: memphis v. florida atlantic

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Dec 21, 2007 01:53 am 
By TheDeuce

alrighty...thanks for the info.
