	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Real Names of Mr. Rasputin and Lorelei
2. M/CP 1-35
3. M/CP2 1/3
4. Behind the Scenes
5. OMD [spoilers]
6. This is all really nice but
7. M/CP 36-70
8. Amazing Fantasy Omnibus/Reed Richards appearance
9. M/:LG 5-FB
10. M/CP 71-105
11. Shanna the she-devil
12. SSU
13. Phaeder
14. Night Raven slip-up
15. The Olde Order Changeth!
16. Re: January 9, 2008 Watch
17. Topical chronologies for 20th century characters
18. Damage Control Staff
19. Spidey in ASM 365/2
20. New Forum Coming
21. It the Living Colossus
22. Frankenstein in OHOTMU: Horror
23. High Evolutionary
24. Illuminati 5
25. WAYART
26. M/CP 106-140
27. Flashbacks in ORDER2 7
28. Henry Peter Gyrich is Petey the Little Pest

	Issue Analysis Forum
29. December call for analyses
30. Chronology Review for Daredevil Vol. 2 Annual #1
31. Nextwave: Agents of H.A.T.E. 1-6!
32. Wolverine v3 57-61
33. January call for analyses
34. Daughters of the Dragon #1-6
35. Calendar; Punisher MAX 51-54
36. Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 1-4 & TOS 50-53



Thread 1

Subject: Real Names of Mr. Rasputin and Lorelei

Jan 01, 2008 2:36 am 
By wolframbane

For two minor characters, their real names have been revealed, if we wanted to add it to the MCP. 

LORELEI of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants and Savage Land Mutates, her real name is LANI UBANA from the Brotherhood entry in OHOTMU 2. 

MR. RASPUTIN, an enemy of Dr. Strange, has had his first name revealed in the Magik entry in X-Men Messiah Complex Handbook, as PAVEL PLOTNICK.

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 10:29 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

wolframbane wrote: 
>>>
LORELEI of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants and Savage Land Mutates, her real name is LANI UBANA from the Brotherhood entry in OHOTMU 2. 
<<<

Actually, it's Lani Ubanu.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 2

Subject: M/CP 1-35

Jan 01, 2008 1:53 pm 
By Arthur
Director

Marvel Comics Presents 1-35 (plus fallout)

**new entry
* adjustment needed

AMERICAN EAGLE III/JASON STRONGBOW 
**M/TIO@ 6 (8:3 - 10:2)-FB pre-power
**M/TIO@ 6 (24:4 - 24:6)-FB Jason and Ward fight
**M/TIO@ 6 (25:7 - 26:5)-FB blasted by Klaw, gains power
**M/TIO@ 6 (10:6 - 11:2)-FB exits mountain
**M/TIO@ 6 (19:7)-FB parachutes from plane over Savage land
**M/TIO@ 6 (26:8 - 27:2)-FB arrives in savage land;first dinosaur encounter
M/TIO@ 6
**M/CP 27/4 (4:2 - 4:6)-FB
COC 1-BTS


ARCADE/ 
XCAL 5
*M/CP 31/4-BTS should not be BTS; Arcade appears in panels 8:3(VO), 8:5 and 8:6.
M/CP 32-BTS


COLOSSUS III/PETER RASPUTIN 
UX 238
*M/CP 10 should read M/CP 10/4
M/CP 11


**HOAG, ANNE MARIE
**M/CP 19/4
**DAMCON 1
**DAMCON 2
**DAMCON 3
**DAMCON2 1
**DAMCON2 3
**DAMCON2 4


**INQUISITOR
**M/CP 4
**M/CP 5
**M/CP 7
**M/CP 8
**M/CP 9


INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUE STORM RICHARDS 
M/CP 75/4
**M/CP 13/3 (4:2)-FB Reed`s boiler fix expands into laundry room
C&D3 2
M/CP 13/3


IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK
IM 236
**M/CP 8/4 (2:1-8:5)-FB 
M/CP 8/4
DAMCON 3


JAMESON, J. JONAH 
ASM 270
*M/CP 12/3 should read M/CP 12/3 (2:1)-FB 
ASM@ 19


KLAW/ULYSSES KLAW 
M/TIO 58
**M/TIO@ 6 (30:5 - 30:8)-FB escape from Project Pegasus
**M/TIO@ 6 (24:6, 25:7-26:3)-FB capturing Ward Strongbow
M/TIO@ 6


LIVING MONOLITH/AHMET ABDOL
M/GN 17
*M/CP 25 Should be removed. This is just a tracker; Although Havok's first thought is that it is the Living Pharoah, very quickly Havok states "I don't know who you are dressed up like the Living Pharaoh -- but I do know you're not him!" (7:6). 
SENSM 18


MACTAGGERT, MOIRA KINROSS 
XCAL 11
**M/CP 18 (3:2)-FB
M/CP 17/4


MAN-THING II/THEODORE "TED" SALLIS 
WOSM@ 4
**M/CP 29/4 (4:2 - 4:5)-FB
M/CP 29/4


MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
ST2 19-BTS
**M/CP 13/3 (4:2)-FB Reed`s boiler fix expands into laundry room
C&D3 2
**M/CP 13/3 (3:2)-FB-BTS Reed`s flux monitor pulls meteor through roof
M/CP 13/3


OWAYODATA 
RW 8
*M/CP 15 should be M/CP 15/4
DRSTR3 25


*PLASMA/LEILA O'TOOLE <-- real name added
**M/CP 24/4 (6:7-7:2)-FB
**M/CP 31 (2:7)-FB
**M/CP 24/4
**M/CP 25 
**M/CP 27
M/CP 28


**PORTER, JOHN
**M/CP 19/4
**DAMCON 1
**DAMCON 2
**DAMCON 3 (1:5)-FB recorded a Damage Control ad
**DAMCON 3
**DAMCON 4
**DAMCON2 1
**DAMCON2 2
**DAMCON2 3
**DAMCON2 4
**DAMCON3 1
**DAMCON3 2
**DAMCON3 3
**DAMCON3 4


QUAGMIRE/JEROME MEYERS 
SQS 10
**M/CP 29/4 (4:2 - 4:5)-FB-BTS
M/CP 29/4


**ROCHE, MR
**M/CP 2
**M/CP 4
**M/CP 5
**M/CP 7
**M/CP 8
**M/CP 10


ROGUE/ 
UX 238
*M/CP 16 should be M/CP 16/3
UX 239


SAPPHIRE STYX 
**M/CP 1
**M/CP 2
**M/CP 3
**M/CP 4
**M/CP 5
**M/CP 7
**M/CP 8
**M/CP 9
M/CP 131


SHAMROCK/MOLLY FITZGERALD 
**M/CP 24/3 (1:1/1)-FB Molly at 3 yrs old
COC 1


THIN MAN/BRUCE DICKSON
INV2 2
*M/CP 34/4 (3:1)-FB after WW II Buce returns to Kalahia and finds it destroyed
*M/CP 34 Should read M/CP 34/4
CV2 1


WINGFOOT, WYATT 
FF 193
**M/TIO@ 6 (11:3)-FB two days before M/TIO@ 6, a neighboring tribesman tells Wyatt about the disappearance of Jason Strongbow
M/TIO@ 6


ZZZAX 
H2 327
*M/CP 8/4 should read M/CP 8/4-FB
MSU 3

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 6:33 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Arthur wrote:
>>>
There's a flashback of Cap and Agent Axis fighting in M/CP 34/4 (pg 3 pan 3). 

There's really not much to go on. 

Cap's shield is NOT in sight. 
Cap is shown tossing Agent Axis in the air. 
There are explosions in the background and ruined buildings. 
<<<

This could go anywhere, as long as it's after Invaders @1 and before What If...? 4. 

This: 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS 
... 
CA 262-FB (1943) 
FS-DOCA: IM (11)-FB 
*M/CP 34/4 (3:3)-FB 
CA 219-FB (1944) 
CLAN 8-FB (1944) 
... 

Seems to be as good a place as any.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 7:41 pm 
By Arthur
Director

thank you Col. Fury! 

that would mean as well: 

AGENT AXIS/ 

INV@ 1-FB 
INV@ 1 
INV 26 
INV 27 
INV 28 
**M/CP 34/4 (3:3)-FB 
M/CP 34/4 


BTW.. what happened to the 'DF 2.4 (late '43)' and 'DF 3.6' entries that currenly reside between CA 262-FB (1943) and CA 219-FB in the M/CP? 
I see your original post for the FS-DOCA Flashback also has them gone. 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS currently 
... 
CABT-BTS 
CA 262-FB (1943) 
DF 2.4 (late '43)
DF 3.6 
CA 219-FB 
CLAN 8-FB 
BP4 21-FB

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 7:46 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks for the suggestion about Agent Axis... I forgot. 

Domination Factor takes place concurrently with Sgt. Fury 13. Sgt. Fury 13 takes place between Invaders issues, and can't take place during Invaders and after Invaders wraps up. Check this out for a more detailed explanation. 

-edit- 

As it turns out, the chronologies have been updated. Yay!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 3

Subject: M/CP2 1/3

Jan 02, 2008 5:23 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Anyone have any idea where to put M/CP2 1/3 in Spidey's chronology? 
At first, I thought this would be post-OMD, since Peter is in the classic costume and appears to be living alone. But Brand New Day has Peter living with May in her Queens home, not alone in a high-rise in Manhattan. Perhaps this story goes a way back?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jan 02, 2008 5:41 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Doesn't that fit the status quo of the early JMS run, pre-ASM2 49 or so?

			*	*	*

Jan 02, 2008 10:52 pm 
By cweed4

It could fit in after ASM2 45 (or before the 2pg epilogue in that issue). 

Peter mentions ending a battle w/ Doc Ock w/ the line "it seemed like Ock grew extra arms." There is a battle in ASM2 44-45 against Doc Ock and Carlyle (who has his own set of Ock arms.) The room he enters in M/CP2 1/3 doesn't look like any of his apts so it might be his hotel room in California. Assuming that's the case, it would help explain why he wouldn't come across the subspace spider signal again. (The last panel shows it under the bed.)

			*	*	*

Jan 03, 2008 10:28 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Nice...very nice. After the restaurant scene at the end of ASM2 45, Pete and May leave M.J. and go to their rooms in an L.A. hotel. Restless, Peter goes back out in the early morning hours in his battered costume from the Doc Ock fight. Realizing he's too beat, he returns to his room at the beginning of M/CP2 1/3 and finally falls asleep... 

Yeah, this works fine. Good job, cweed4! Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 4

Subject: Behind the Scenes

Jan 04, 2008 9:53 pm 
By scottandrewhutchins

I'm not 100% clear on what BTS indicates, but in FF 176, the FF crashes the High Evolutionary's ship into the Pond at Central Park. Should 176 be listed as a BTS for High Evolutionary? The issue mentions it's his ship.

			*	*	*

Jan 04, 2008 10:10 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Unless the High Evolutionary has an impact on the story, he would not receive a behind-the-scenes listing here. An appearance by his ship would not qualify, in and of itself, unless Reed says something like "I'm glad the High Evolutionary lent us the use of his ship!" (and we didn't see him actually doing so in a previous story). 


watching: veronica mars

			*	*	*

Thread 5

Subject: OMD [spoilers]

Dec 28, 2007 7:20 pm 
By cweed4

I don't even know what to say after reading ASM #545. Really, I just wanted to see if the MCP blew up because of this story. 

As a Spidey fan I am beyond angry.

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 7:44 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Why would the MCP blow up? From a chronology standpoint, it's a fantastic line of demarcation... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 7:54 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Unlike, say, HoM, this is a Crisis-level change. That is, it's retcon rather than a mindwipe or a present-day change. Where do any flashbacks to the "new" last 20 years go? What about any future flashbacks in New Avengers that include Spidey and, say, Luke Cage? You can't pile them up, HoM-style, between pages of ASM 545 & 546, but they don't fit between the ASM issues of the time because those ASM issues are now retconned into oblivion.

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 7:57 pm 
By JD

Yeah, it's not as if this would cause us to change and delete appearances of the Spider-Cast from the last couple of decades... would it ? It all happened to these characters, they just don't remember it (or do they ?). 

And hey, the sudden resurrection of "that guy" against all odds even fits in the family tradition...

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 8:07 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Eh. Personally, since this "altered past" is specific to the Spider-books rather than Marvel as a whole -- the rest of Marvel's books are going to keep right on referencing the same past we all know and love, except the bits that involve Peter's marriage -- I'd personally call any flashbacks to Peter's new past "false flashbacks", and simply discount them the same way we would implanted memories. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 8:39 pm 
By cweed4

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Why would the MCP blow up? From a chronology standpoint, it's a fantastic line of demarcation...

-Jeph!
<<<

But, until they explain exactly where that line is Spidey's chronology is pointless. 

Did Mephisto's change occur in ASM@ 21? 

Did Peter just not propose in ASM 290? 

Does MJ simply not return in ASM 242? 


Plus, doesn't every character that interacted w/Spidey after this line need to have their chronology updated now?

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 8:52 pm 
By Ross

But is that really the case - that it's specific to the Spidey books? Spider-Man's identity being public was pretty big news all over the place - and now that's gone. That shreds a not-insignificant piece of Civil War, and puts any other book that references it in a bind (Avengers: The Initiative #7 comes to mind).

This just seems like an unworkable situation - either this retcon will need to get retconned out itself (and soon), or we're left with a chronology web that's messy beyond all recognition, or Amazing Spider-Man is now in some kind of isolated pocket universe.

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 9:05 pm 
By Ross

BTW, if you haven't already, you should read this interview with Quesada, posted today: 

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=12230

If you're like me, it'll make you want to punch him in the face...

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 9:45 pm 
By jephyork
Director

In my head, folks, it's a pretty simple situation. 

Everything that happened before ... still happened. There is NO NEED to re-order any chronologies. 

However, thanks to Mephisto, everyone now remembers stuff happening differently. 

When people think about the events of Civil War, they simply can't remember Spider-Man unmasking. 

When I say it's a line of demarcation, I mean that if a comic comes out and references the marriage, it's pre-OMD. If a comic comes out and references the new status quo, it's post-OMD. 

And when I say it's specific to the Spider-books, I mean that other books are going to continue happily referencing events in the old, real past -- UNLESS those events involve Spider-Man's identity or marriage. In which case, either the events will simply not get referenced -- no problem there -- or they'll get referenced as occurring differently, which I would classify as a "false flashback". 

See? Simple. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 10:05 pm 
By cweed4

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Everything that happened before ... still happened. There is NO NEED to re-order any chronologies.

However, thanks to Mephisto, everyone now remembers stuff happening differently.
<<<

But, seeing as how Harry has been resurrected, that clearly is not the case.

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 10:08 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Right, because Mephisto DOESN'T have the power to resurrect. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 10:13 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

cweed4, 

We've provided the Spoiler tag for a reason. Please enclose spoiler text in the Spoiler tag.

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 10:15 pm 
By Somebody
Director

The time-travel test: if you travelled back X months in the MU, what would you find. If it's a mindwipe, you would find a married Peter & MJ; if not, you wouldn't. Usually it's clear from the comic which is intended (e.g., if you travelled back a while, you'd land in the HoM, and if you travelled back slightly further, you'd hit the MU with a lot more mutants. But you'd never hit the AoA that way.) 

The contention here is that the "time-travel test", based on the way OMD is premised, would find that Peter & MJ had "never" been married in the new timeline, and you-know-who had never even appeared to die - a complete, in-comic retcon, the way we've had minor ones in the past (e.g., Quasar's costume). No matter how far back you go, you wouldn't find a married Peter & MJ. Whereas the alternative, a Flash #200-style mindwipe that also affects physical (e.g. paper) & electronic records, would lead to you travelling back and finding it exactly as published, with married Peter & MJ until OMD.

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 10:35 pm 
By jephyork
Director

The entire THREAD is labelled "spoilers" in the SUBJECT LINE.

But, okey doke:

You know what, let me put it another way.

Mephisto HAS messed with the world. The world now is NOT the world as it was.

But we don't know HOW Mephisto messed with the world.

IS it a time-travel-related change, that literally created a new and divergent world that's overwritten the original Marvel universe?

Is it some kind of weird magical blanket that Mephisto's thrown over the entire world, that altered the present-day status quo and altered everyone's memories of the past, without actually ERASING what's come before?

I'm tempted to believe it's the latter. Because, when asked why he was doing it, Mephisto said that there would always be that small smothered part of Peter and MJ that knew what they had lost -- and Mephisto would enjoy that part of them suffering.

If the events were literally erased via time-travel, that wouldn't be the case. There wouldn't be a small suppressed part of both of them that remembered the old past.

So, on that basis -- and on the logic that, like I said, aside from Spidey-marriage- or Spidey-identity-related storylines, everyone else in every other book in the entire Marvel Universe will keep right on referencing the original past -- I say it's easier to play it safe and keep the original chronologies.

Harry Osborn's chronology will stay as it was, go right up to the point of his death -- and then continue on with ASM #545, the point of his "rebirth".

The alternative, quite frankly, is chaos.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 10:45 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
The contention here is that the "time-travel test", based on the way OMD is premised, would find that Peter & MJ had "never" been married in the new timeline
<<<

I think it's a bit soon to start making contentions like that. 

To be honest, it's probably a bit soon to start making contentions EITHER way. Let's see some more comics come out and flesh out this Brand New Day before we start tearing our hair out about how the exact mechanics of it are supposed to work. 

To be completely honest, as someone who doesn't collect the Spider-books, this really doesn't affect me and my reading in any way. I'm only leaning towards the "nothing's REALLY changed; everyone just THINKS it has" explanation because it seems to be less of a blow to the fundamental structure of the Marvel Universe than the time-travel possibility does. And therefore, it makes the MCP's job easier -- all we have to do in that case is manage the altered characters' chronologies on a going-forward basis, not a retroactive basis. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 28, 2007 10:56 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Here's another little nugget to chew over:

Mephisto claims to have erased ALL knowledge of Spider-Man's identity.

Presumably this includes Mary Jane's.

Retcons have established that Mary Jane learned Spider-Man's identity in Amazing Fantasy #15.

So, if you REALLY want to consider the time-travel option, then events have been altered at least as far back as the VERY BEGINNING OF SPIDEY'S CRIMEFIGHTING CAREER.

Yikes!

I'm preferring the less damaging option more and more with every passing moment... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 29, 2007 12:48 am 
By cweed4

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Right, because Mephisto DOESN'T have the power to resurrect.

-Jeph!
<<<

Therein lies the rub for me. There is no reason to honor any previous Spidey continuity now. All inconsistencies can be dismissed as part of the Mephisto deal. Spidey now has an entirely different history in the MU and we don't know what it is. Based on the extensive retcons presented in just the few BND pages at the end of the story everything is up for grabs.

			*	*	*

Dec 29, 2007 1:08 am 
By cweed4

The only thing I am hanging my hat on, after reading the ending again, is the idea that BND is actually the new history of Spidey from a point in history between ASM 143 (Peter&MJ kiss) and ASM 156 (Harry meets Liz). The movie theatre does have a billing for 1960's celebrities.

			*	*	*

Dec 29, 2007 1:44 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Like Jeph said, it really is too early to assume anything. But as I understand it... Everything that happened did happen, just as we saw it, including Peter & Mary Jane getting married. The difference now is, no one remembers the marriage. Everyone remembers the basic events as they happened, they just don't remember the marriage. Peter still unmasked during Civil War, it happened, but no one remembers it. Mephisto erased the evidence. 

All of the stuff that happened because Peter was married to MJ? They remember those events, but just as them being together, not married. The same decisions were made, but because they were together, living together, whatever, they just don't remember the marriage.As I understand it. Oh yeah, As for Harry, well, MJ did ask Mephisto to give Peter a chance at happiness. How else to do that than to give him back his best friend? And the whole 'I wasn't dead, I was in Europe!' seems to be the Osborn party line now.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 30, 2007 4:22 pm 
By Enda80

Okay, so people just remember them as living together, pace Bo Barrigan or Lee Marvin (look up the Michelle Triola case, not one of his films).

			*	*	*

Dec 31, 2007 12:56 am 
By jephyork
Director

Make some sense right now or I'm going to turn this car around. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 31, 2007 8:38 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

What? You don't understand the English translation from the original Skrull? Oops. Enda's secret is out

...Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 31, 2007 10:57 am 
By shandrakor

That would explain so much! Enda is really Skrull Ringo!

			*	*	*

Dec 31, 2007 5:33 pm 
By Enda80

You don't remember Lee Marvin and Michelle Triola? They lived together for a long time without getting married so when they separated Triola claimed "palimony", a modified form of alimony. 

So, I am guessing people will now remember Pete and MJ living together the way Michelle Triola and Lee Marvin did, without getting married.

Bo Barrigan was facing a palimony suit when the Trust killed him.

			*	*	*

Dec 31, 2007 6:02 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Why couldn't you have just said that in the first place, Skrullda80? 

And actually, we have no idea what people will remember about Peter and MJ's status yet. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 31, 2007 9:51 pm 
By cweed4

I couldn't find the chronology listing for Michelle Triola. Is she under the T's or the M's?

			*	*	*

Dec 31, 2007 9:55 pm 
By cweed4

jephyork wrote:
>>>
And actually, we have no idea what people will remember about Peter and MJ's status yet.

-Jeph!
<<<

Aside from their 'falling out' right before Harry returned from his European drug rehab.

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 12:24 am 
By Mikhail

Married, not married, that alone won't make a big deal difference to Spider-History. The details, of course, will have to be glossed over in the future, but Peter and MJ could very easily have been "together" and not married. It's bad, but not Hawkworld bad. The real kicker is that other thing...

Harry's status will be the major factor to look at in determining what sort of changes Mephisto made. Was Harry the Green Goblin in the past? If so, how many times? Was he saved in the last second in Spectacular Spider-Man #200, or did events shift significantly before that? How would this effect Phil Urich over in Loners, or Norman's standing in Thunderbolts? More significantly if this is a divergent timeline: does little Normie Osborn even exist anymore?

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 2:38 am 
By wolframbane

Would anyone with a great scanner or powerful microscope be able to make out what MJ whispered to Mephisto?

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 3:31 am 
By JLH

I'd much rather use a magnifying glass... 

...Under a sunny sky... 

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 10:01 am 
By cweed4

Here is the Newsarama review for those interested-
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=141416

Pretty much covers most of my hate for the issue.  

They didn't bring up how silly the "once in a millenia" love nonsense was. Especially since Peter's true love has always been Gwen Stacy.  

There is also the "future child" business. ASM 545 acts like Peter & MJ haven't already lost a kid. But maybe Mephisto's memory wipe was already starting to kick in.

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 11:01 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

There really isn't a need to retcon Spidey in ASM, given that the Ultimate and Marvel Adventures lines are all about attracting new readership without the baggage of 45 years of continuity.

Given that, and given that...
...Mephisto is a master of illusion and lies
...I doubt Mephisto has the power to roll back a timeline and retcon it, consigning years of reality to oblivion
...the entire story is set up as a "love conquers all" story (so it probably will)
...M.J.'s bargain with Mephisto appears to be a set up for revelation of a "things aren't what they seem" scenario
...future MU story arcs (such as Secret Invasion) build on recent events that aren't likely to be wiped out on the scale suggested by the last several pages of ASM 545
...the three Spider titles are now transformed into one thrice-monthly title, the better to track a single storyline without the problem of inconsistencies between MU-616 Spidey books
...the title of the new story is "Brand New Day"...

I think Mephisto has created a pocket universe, much like House of M, the events of which occur (maybe only in Peter's mind) during a single day in MU-616, even though the timeframe within this pocket universe is longer.

Spidey likely will appear in other "mainstream" books outside of the Mephistoverse and Quesada et al can just say they occur before One More Day. That way, the illusion of a retcon can last a good several months.

...Well, one can always hope...

And I like how M.J.'s last words to Peter are the same as her first, but they also may be intended to provide Peter with a clue about an upcoming new character we've seen already in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN: SWING SHIFT (which occurs within this pocket universe).

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 12:17 pm 
By Mikhail

But wasn't Avengers: The Initiative #7 solicited and heavily promoted as the last pre-OMD appearance by Spider-Man? That would go against the idea that Marvel plans to make the coming months in New Avengers, Secret Invasion, etc also pre-OMD.

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 1:49 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

If Paul's right about the "pocket universe" than there's a serious possibility that we're going to recieve a revelation that Spider-Man's a skrull around the time "Secret Invasion" starts...

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 3:42 pm 
By cweed4

Regarding Initiative #7 its my belief that
Marvel needed to restore Peter's secret identity twice. Once in Init#7 so that his status in the current MU timeline can be explained after OMD. It also had to be done in ASM 545 to give him a secret ID in BND and beyond. (I still have no idea whether this will turn out to be a HoM/Mephistoverse.) But, the double restoration of his secret ID allows them to continue with stories along both timelines w/out any apparant conflict (and, possibly, w/out cluing the readers into what the actual status is).

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 5:11 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Mikhail wrote:
>>>
But wasn't Avengers: The Initiative #7 solicited and heavily promoted as the last pre-OMD appearance by Spider-Man? That would go against the idea that Marvel plans to make the coming months in New Avengers, Secret Invasion, etc also pre-OMD.
<<<

An interesting point. Of course, if A:TI 7 truly restored Spidey's secret identity, then why did Peter and M.J. ask that the restoration of Peter's identity be part of the deal with Mephisto so that May wouldn't be threatened again? That wouldn't have been a concern if A:TI 7 predates OMD.

To me, this redundancy further marginalizes Brand New Day in the overall scheme of things. If Peter's secret was restored already and love will win over all in the end, then OMD/BND is just a lot of bluster, IMHO.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 5:46 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Ross wrote:
BTW, if you haven't already, you should read this interview with Quesada, posted today: Part 2 of that intwerview is up, and Joe Q starts to talk about the retcon, which ties to JMS' objection. I'm not going to quote large chunks of the interview, but feel free to follow Ross' link and read for yourselves. A few years ago at a creator's summit they came up with the plan for getting rid of the Spider-Marriage. JMS signed up to write the story. When he handed in the scripts, he had veered off the plan: the science he used would have erased 20+ years worth of Spider-stories. The scripts had to be re-written so that there wasn't a 'Crisis Level Event', and so that 20+ years worth of Spider-stories could still stand. That's what JMS had an objection with: his scripts being re-written.(even though he didn't write what he had agreed to)Part 3 is going up tomorrow, where Joe Q will explain how 20+ years of stories haven't been erased. 

Is there a back door? Yeah, but I don't think they'll use it anytime soon. I mean, how long did it take to reverse the Spider-Clone mess? Unless Brand New Day tanks spectacularly, quickly and violently, I don't see it happening. I also don't see this as a pocket universe. I really think this is the new status quo for Spider-Man. I could be wrong, though. 

As for Initiative 7, I don't think it matters that much. It was a fun issue, but I really don't think they would set up Spider-Man's secret ID so closely to Daredevil's.-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 7:52 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I'm with Fury here - while I'd like to think this was another AoA/HoM, I think "Joephisto" has too much invested in this personally, emotionally and even nominally professionally for him to lose face and do the U-turn without an ENORMOUS backlash.

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Given that, and given that...
...Mephisto is a master of illusion and lies
...I doubt Mephisto has the power to roll back a timeline and retcon it, consigning years of reality to oblivion
<<<

As I understand it, Mephisto CAN... if and only if someone asks him do to so of their own free will. He can't do it whenever he wants, and he can't control them into asking him or coerce them with anything except words.

Watch now as someone pulls up a counter-example 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
I think Mephisto has created a pocket universe, much like House of M, the events of which occur (maybe only in Peter's mind) during a single day in MU-616, even though the timeframe within this pocket universe is longer.

Spidey likely will appear in other "mainstream" books outside of the Mephistoverse and Quesada et al can just say they occur before One More Day. That way, the illusion of a retcon can last a good several months.
<<<

Wait and see... but New Avengers is the keystone. If, after it moves beyond Spidey-in-black (which I think is due in NA@ 2 or the issue of the main series which follows it), we see - as I expect to see - BND status quo for Spidey in the Avs...

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 9:22 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
I'm with Fury here - while I'd like to think this was another AoA/HoM, I think "Joephisto" has too much invested in this personally, emotionally and even nominally professionally for him to lose face and do the U-turn without an ENORMOUS backlash. 
<<<

Exactly. Marvel have been trying to find a way to do this since the early '90s, and the only reason that was reversed was because of the enormous backlash from the Clone mess. Joe Q's not the only who wants this, but it's his name on the box. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Wait and see... but New Avengers is the keystone. If, after it moves beyond Spidey-in-black (which I think is due in NA@ 2 or the issue of the main series which follows it), we see - as I expect to see - BND status quo for Spidey in the Avs...
<<<

Right, but I don't think we'll see that until Secret Invasion proper starts. Next issue(38) is a Luke & Jessica issue, the issue after that(39) is an Echo issue, the two issues after that(40 & 41) are Flashback issues to show who's a Skrull & when it happened, and the two issues after that(42 & 43) are Nick Fury issues. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Wait and see... 
<<<

Indeed.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 9:58 pm 
By Ross

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Part 2 of that intwerview is up, and Joe Q starts to talk about the retcon, which ties to JMS' objection.
<<<

From part two of the interview (at http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=12238): 

"In the end, knowing what that story was going to be is what allowed us to go ahead with the unmasking of Spider-Man in 'Civil War' -- we had our 'way out' ahead of time, it was a great place to be." 

Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. Sigh...

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 11:01 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

>>>
A few years ago at a creator's summit they came up with the plan for getting rid of the Spider-Marriage. JMS signed up to write the story. When he handed in the scripts, he had veered off the plan: the science he used would have erased 20+ years worth of Spider-stories. The scripts had to be re-written so that there wasn't a 'Crisis Level Event', and so that 20+ years worth of Spider-stories could still stand. That's what JMS had an objection with: his scripts being re-written.(even though he didn't write what he had agreed to)
<<<

So it's not that JMS was against terminating the marriage, it was the fact that he was against having his script altered?!? Man, I guess those stories about him having a contract that required his scripts not be altered is true...

Also of interest to me from the Joe Quesada interview is this segment:

>>>
Also, the science that Joe was going to apply to the retcon of the marriage would have made over 30 years of Spider-Man books worthless, because they never would have had happened. We would have also had a "Crisis" in the Marvel Universe because it would have reset way too many things outside of the Spider-Man titles. We just couldn't go there and in the end we weren't expecting that kind of story
<<<

So if I'm reading that right, the last 20 something years of storylines DID still happen. "Pocket Dimension" is sounding more and more likely...I guess the mechanics of this will be explained later on...Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Jan 03, 2008 1:06 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Well, I think JMS just summed up what this means for continuity @ Newsarama: 


JMS @ http://forum.newsarama.com/showpost.php?p=4946249&postcount=1 wrote:
>>>
But there are some vital omissions in the interview, including the primary reason I finally threw up my hands on the book, which had mainly to do with how the resolution was handled.

To explain, here's the conversation I had with Marvel, in sum:

"So what does Mephisto do?" I ask.

"He makes everybody forget Peter's Spider-Man."

"Uh, huh. So Aunt May's still in the hospital --"

"No, he saves Aunt May."

"But if all he does is save her life and make everybody forget he's Spidey, she still has a scar on her midsection."

"No, he makes that go away too."

"Okay..."

"Then he wakes up in her house."

"The house that was burned down?"

"Right."

"But how --"

"Mephisto undoes that as well."

"Okay. And the guys who shot at Peter and May and were killed, they're alive too? Mephisto can bring guys back from the dead?"

"It's all part of the spell."

"And Doc Strange can't tell?"

"No,"

"And the newspaper articles? News footage?"

"Joe, it's been forgotten."

"I'm just asking is that stuff there or not there?"

"Not there. And Peter's web shooters are back."

"Is this the same spell or a different spell?"

"Same spell."

"How does making people forget he's Spidey bring back his web shooters?"

"It's magic, okay?"

"I see. And Harry's back."

"Right."

"And Mephisto does this too."

"Yep."

"So is Harry back from the dead, or has he been alive? If they ask him, hey Harry, what did you do last summer, will he remember? And the year before? And the year before? If he says they all went on a picnic two years ago, will they remember it?"

"It's --"

"Because if he now has a life he remembers, if he's not back from the dead, then you've changed the continuity you said you didn't want to change. Those are your only options: he was brought back from the dead, and there's a grave, and people remember him dying --"

"Mephisto changes THEIR memories too."

"-- or he's effectively been alive as far as our characters know, so he's been alive all along, so either way as far as our characters are concerned, continuity's been violated going back to 1971.

How do you explain that?"

"It's magic, we don't have to explain it."
<<<

Not that his solution would have been BETTER, since it'd all be the same result, but I think this shows the level of logical thinking that went into this clusterfrak.

			*	*	*

Jan 03, 2008 1:51 pm 
By wolframbane

Given the potential success (or lack thereof) of this series, it is only a matter of time before: 
1) Spidey is retconned back to the status quo (a la Heroes Reborn) 
or 
2) Everyone else gets retconned (a la Crisis on Infinite Earths DC)

			*	*	*

Jan 03, 2008 5:20 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Well, there we go, that settles it. It's magic. So, the past as we know it still more or less "happened", and there's no need to go nuts ripping the current chronologies apart or stressing out about pocket universes or divergent timelines or whatnot. 

Basically Joe Q. is saying "look, here's the new status quo, can we all please just move forward now". And while that may be annoying to long-term Spider-fans, it's kind of a godsend to folks like us who tend to overthink and nitpick and revise every chronology all the time. 

"It's magic", and everything's different now. Don't look back -- just move on.  

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jan 04, 2008 1:47 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Well, there we go, that settles it. It's magic. So, the past as we know it still more or less "happened", and there's no need to go nuts ripping the current chronologies apart or stressing out about pocket universes or divergent timelines or whatnot. 
<<<

Joe Q wrote:
>>>
Exactly, thats precisely what we wanted to avoid. What didnt occur was the marriage. Peter and MJ were together, they loved each other -- they just didnt pull the trigger on the wedding day. All the books count, all the stories count -- except in the minds of the people within the Marvel U, Peter and MJ were a couple, not a married couple. To me, thats a much fairer thing to do to those of us who have been reading Spider-Man for all these years. Like I said, is it perfect? No. 
<<<

He later(in part 4 of the interview, I think) nails down where the change is: ASM@ 21. The actual wedding didn't happen. The events leading up to it did, and everything that came after did, just not the wedding. They lived together, they loved each other, they just weren't married.(Call it pulling a Lee Marvin or whatever you want) 

As far as we're concerned, the only issue in question is ASM@ 21. But since most of that issue still 'happened', I don't think we need to do anything. I'm sure there will be future FlashBacks to what happened instead, but I guess we'll deal with that when it happens.(but wait, if they didn't get married, why did they go on their honeymoon? Maybe it was already paid for, and they figured 'whatever'. I don't know)

As for the 'breakup', or why they're not living together anymore... that's going to be covered in upcoming issues. Since we know this will be covered, I'll suggest a break between pgs 22 & 23 of ASM 545 of at least 'weeks' to accomodate for future FlashBacks. Hell, maybe even Secert Invasion will go there. Who knows? 

As for the secret identity, Joe Q compares Peter's ID to Tony Stark's when he brainwashed everyone to forget his ID with satellites.(remember that?) Everyone remembers Spider-Man unmasking during Civil War, but no one remembers who was under the mask.(and yes, video and photos of it were erased) Just like then, people remembered the unmasking, just not who was under it. 

The bit I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is Harry, if only because that isn't being talked about. Apparently though, that will be addressed in upcoming issues. 


jephyork wrote:
>>>
"It's magic", and everything's different now. Don't look back -- just move on.  
<<<

I'm looking forward to Brand New Day. I can't wait! 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 04, 2008 2:37 pm 
By cweed4

There was a myspace site w/ the first 8 pages of BND posted last night. Not sure if its still up though.


Anyway it establishes that- (BEWARE, BIG SPOILERS!)

BND is set a few months after OMD. Jackpot is working for the Initiative as an official NY hero. Pete is living w/ May in their old house because he's broke. Betty Brant is helping him find an apt. Spider-man hasn't been seen for some time. A number of muggers have taken to wearing Spidey masks. Pete is going on job interviews. 

Oh yeah, and the splash page features Peter making out at a club w/ some unidentified female. 


Regarding the outcome of OMD. The Mephisto deal, as stated at the end of pt3 and beginning of pt4, declared that the memories of Peter & MJ would be erased (at least those pertaining to the marriage). This lost love would provide Mr. M with great joy as both their souls screamed for eternity.  However, JoeQ has stated in the CBR interview that everyone in the MU remembers most of the events depicted in the comics happening as they were presented but w/ Pete&MJ as an unmarried couple. This suggests, at least to me, that Pete&MJ must also have complete memories w/ the same caveat.

So, doesn't this mean Mephisto got nothing out of the deal? 
Does it suggest that the original deal was altered in some way? 
Was it changed because of what MJ whispered? 
Or did Marvel contradict the premise of OMD?

			*	*	*

Jan 04, 2008 9:39 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Mephisto said that *tiny little parts of their souls* would remember, and suffer. Presumably this is happening at a deeply unconscious level, and as far as Peter and MJ consciously know, they were never married. 

By the way, I've deleted a recent reply from this thread, as it contributed nothing and was actively insulting towards various Marvel staffers. Fair warning, folks, that's not what we're about here. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jan 05, 2008 3:40 pm 
By cweed4

I guess this is the explanation for it. I still fail to see how they suffer when the memories of all their shared experiences remain intact. 

If they are going to suffer because their future love will be lost then I would have preferred if the deal was presented that way in the comic. 


 Sorry to beat this dead horse. I really am trying to move on. Its just magic, its just magic, its just magic,.....

			*	*	*

Jan 05, 2008 4:50 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

And as Tony Stark has been known to say..."I hate magic.

"Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Subject: This is all really nice but

Jan 08, 2008 12:46 am 
By Shadowfax

Has there been any thought as to compiling a chronology of the entire Marvel Universe? As in a reading order for all the different stories, not by character but the order in which they occurred in the Universe?

			*	*	*

Jan 08, 2008 12:51 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Well, you could always check out Paul B's Marvel Calendar. The link is at the bottom of every page of the forum... or it's right here. It currently covers books from 2000 to about a year ago, and he's getting ready to put up an updated version with books from up to last week.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 08, 2008 9:50 am 
By fnord12

I'm working on something along those lines but it's probably going to be a loooong time before i'm finished. And of course it's very subjective. 

http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronocomic/

			*	*	*

Jan 08, 2008 5:41 pm 
By Starman

Cool! I made sure to save the address. I'm actually doing the same thing, but it's not available online. - Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

			*	*	*

Jan 08, 2008 8:23 pm 
By Enda80

"It takes place in "the late 1950s". The Golden Age super-heroes are people that the main character has "read about a few years back". Benjamin Grimm is referenced as the #1 test pilot in the country. The Ben Grimm reference and the Skrull involvement lead me to place this concurrently with Marvel: The Lost Generation, which spans the time from Grimm going to college to Grimm becoming the Thing. In between those two events he was a test pilot."

http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronocomic/entries/marvel_premiere_35.shtml

Hmmm....doesn't really affect 3-D Man too much, since he has few appearances, but I guess his adventures took place X-10 to X-5 years before FF I#1 as opposed to the absolute 1950's.

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Subject: M/CP 36-70

Jan 09, 2008 11:57 pm 
By Arthur
Director

Marvel Comics Presents 36-70 

** new entry 
* adjustment needed 


BRASS/SEAN WATANABE 
M/CP 69-FB 
**A 313-BTS ("we were across the street from...Avengers mansion, when the Mandarin attacked." M/CP 69 (5:2)) 
**{M/CP 65} 
**M/CP 66 
M/CP 67 
M/CP 68 


CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN GRANT ROGERS 
CA 253 
*CA 254 (1-21) 
**M/CP 42/3 (4:1)-FB shows Joey Chapman, who had been standing aside, brought into the family circle 
*CA 254 (22) 
CA 256 
. . . 
CA@ 9/2 
**M/CP 60/4 (6:6)-FB in Nicaragua 
**M/CP 60/4 (7:1-7:2)-FB on plane back to USA 
M/CP 60/4 
SS3 36 


CARSON, JOHNNY 
ASM 50 
DD 46 
**M/CP 39/2 
**M/CP 40/2 


DOC SAMSON/DR. LEONARD SAMSON 
H@ 16/3 
**M/CP 50/3 
M/SH3 6 


FALSWORTH, KENNETH 
CA 253 
*CA 254 (1-21) 
**M/CP 42/3 (4:1)-FB shows Joey Chapman, who had been standing aside, brought into the family circle 
*CA 254 (22) 
*M/CP 42/3 (6:2)-FB (just added p:p to differentiate from first FB) 
M/CP 89/3 


HELLCAT/PATSY WALKER BAXTER HELLSTROM  
WCA2 15 
*WCA2 16 (1-8:2) 
**M/CP 53/3 (5:1)-FB Tigra and Hellcat transfer captured Tiger Shark from their boat to the dock to be handed over to the police (who likely had towed their boat to the dock). 
*WCA2 16 (8:3-22) 
SOLOA 9/2 


HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER 
GSSS 1 
*M/CP 59/1-FB should read just M/CP 59-FB 
H2 180 


REAGAN, NANCY DAVIS 
A 246 
CA 343-BTS 
CA 344 
**M/CP 40/2 


REAGAN, RONALD WILSON 
CA 343-BTS 
CA 344 
**M/CP 40/2 


SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF 
M/CP 38/2 
*M/CP 44/2 should read M/CP 45/2 
AWC 53 


SPITFIRE/LADY JACQUELINE FALSWORTH CRICHTON 
CA 253 
*CA 254 (1-21) 
**M/CP 42/3 (4:1)-FB shows Joey Chapman, who had been standing aside, brought into the family circle 
*CA 254 (22) 
*M/CP 42/3 (6:2)-FB (just added p:p to differentiate from first FB) 
N 12-FB 


SUZIE 
H2 354 
*M/CP 38/4 should read M/CP 38/3 


THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" [ASGARDIAN] 
M/HOL 1991/4 
**M/CP 63/4 (2-8:1)-FB) another difficult `could go many places` viking tale 
T 401 


TIGER SHARK/TODD ARLISS 
A 275-BTS 
*WCA2 16 (1-8:2) 
**M/CP 53/3 (5:1)-FB Tigra and Hellcat transfer captured Tiger Shark from their boat to the dock to be handed over to the police 
*WCA2 16 (8:3-22) 
*M/CP 53/3 (5:2-5:3)-FB (just added p:p to differentiate from first FB) 
M/CP 53/3 
M/CP 54/3 


TIGRA/GREER NELSON 
A 274-BTS 
*WCA2 16 (1-8:2) 
**M/CP 53/3 (5:1)-FB Tigra and Hellcat transfer captured Tiger Shark from their boat to the dock to be handed over to the police (who likely had towed their boat to the dock). 
*WCA2 16 (8:3-22) 
WCA2 17 


UNION JACK/LORD MONTGOMERY FALSWORTH 
CA 253 
*CA 254 (1-21) 
**M/CP 42/3 (4:1)-FB shows Joey Chapman, who had been standing aside, brought into the family circle 
*CA 254 (22) 


UNION JACK III/JOEY CHAPMAN 
CA 253 
*CA 254 (1-21) 
**M/CP 42/3 (4:1)-FB shows Joey Chapman, who had been standing aside, brought into the family circle 
*CA 254 (22) 
*M/CP 42/3 (6:2)-FB (just added p:p to differentiate from first FB) 
M/CP 42/3 


VARNAE 
TOD4 2-FB-BTS 
*M/CP 63/3 should be M/CP 63/4 (2-8:1)-FB) 
TOD4 2-FB-BTS 


WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM 
A 314 
**M/CP 48/3 (2:6)-FB harassment prior to start of story 
M/CP 48/3 


WATANABE, EMMALINE BRIGETTE 
**{M/CP 65} 
**M/CP 66 
**M/CP 67 
M/CP 68-BTS 
M/CP 69-BTS 
M/CP 70 
M/CP 71 


WATANABE, YUJI 
**{M/CP 64} 
**M/CP 66 
M/CP 67 
M/CP 68

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Subject: Amazing Fantasy Omnibus/Reed Richards appearance

Jan 10, 2008 2:59 am 
By wolframbane

Would anyone here happen to have, or know someone who has, a copy of the Amazing Fantasy Omnibus? I wanted to check some info from the Amazing Adult Fantasy #7/1 story "Why Won't They Believe Me?". The story involves an alien invader who gets a bump on the head and believes he is actually a human who uncovers an alien plot, only to have a scientist discover it is actually he who is the alien. This is apparently the inspiration for the Reed Richards/Zankor subplot in Marvel: The Lost Generation #11. I wanted to verify if MLG 11 is the same story as AAF 7/1, or if this is just the inspiration and that the stories, though similar, are unrelated? If they are one and the same, this could count as an early appearance of Mr. Fantastic (AAF 7/1 was published a month after FF 1). 

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS 
... 
SGTF 3 
AAF 7/1 ~ M/:LG 11 
FF3 18-FB 
...

			*	*	*

Thread 9

Subject: M/:LG 5-FB

Jan 15, 2008 2:20 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Marvel: the Lost Generation #5 has a Flashback to Hitler making a speech during WWII. Its revealed that the Rumor worked with Hitler to amplify his powers of persuasion. In this FlashBack, during Hitlers speech, the Black Fox(before he became the Black Fox) confronts the Rumor, but he escapes. 

This is already in the Black Foxs & the Rumors chronologies, but not in Hitlers. This really could go anywhere during WWII for Hitler, but Im placing it early in 43.(January) With the Rumor gone and no longer adding to Hitlers persuasion, Im thinking that this is the catalyst for Hitlers generals to start making coordinated assassination attempts on him with regularity.(which started in March of 43) 

A suggestion: 

HITLER, ADOLF 
 
SGTF 29 
GSINV 2-BTS (06/19/42) 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 4/5 
TRUTH 6-FB 
SGTF 32 
SGTF 34-BTS 
SGTF 35 
*M/LG 5-FB 
SGTF 41 
CABT 
SGTF 48 
SGTF 51 (11/27/43) 
SGTF 53 
SGTF 57 
SGTF 58 
SGTF 59 
SGTF 66 
SGTF 67 
SGTF@ 2 (06/06/44) 
SVTU 17 (14:1-14:2)-FB 
 

A big old Thanks! to wolframbane for pointing this out to me.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 10

Subject: M/CP 71-105

Jan 15, 2008 2:20 pm 
By Arthur
Director

Marvel Comics Presents 71-105 (plus fallout) 

**new entry 
* adjustment needed 

BEAST/HENRY "HANK" P. MCCOY 
UX 53/2 (5:5 - 5:6) 
M/CP 85/3-FB 
*M/CP 88/3-FB should read M/CP 88/2-FB 
{UX 1} 
. . . 
M/CP 87/3 
*M/CP 88/3 should read M/CP 88/2 
M/CP 89/2 


BENGAL/ 
DD 258 
**M/CP 72/4 (2:2-2:5)-FB lays a beating on Red Wolf III; kills Lobo II 
NW 7 


**BENSON, DOC 
**{SB 1/2} 
**SB 2 
**SB 5/2 
**SB 10 
**M/CP 85/4 (3:1-3:8)-FB 


CAGE, LUKE/CARL LUCAS 
PM&IF 125 
*M/CP 82/2-FB should read M/CP 82/4-FB 
*M/CP 82/2 should read M/CP 82/4 
IG 2-BTS 


CONSTRICTOR/FRANK PAYNE/"FRANK SCHLICTING" 
< Both of the flashbacks in M/CP 74/3 degenerate into nightmares but I see no reason to discount the beginnings, showing Frank's traumatic childhood. > 
**M/CP 74/3 (1-3:2)-FB about 10 yrs old. Mother and sister killed 
**M/CP 74 /3(5:4-5:8)-FB months later, at the trial 
NF3 36-FB 


CORNELIUS, DR. 
*M/CP 79 (1-6:3) 
[WX2 25-FB] This flashback (the slaughter of a town of people as a Weapon X test) presumably occurs after his being tested with a bear (M/CP 79 (1-4:2)). Following the bear fight, Prof. Thorton suggests the need to test Logan against man ((M/CP 79 (5:2-6:2)). From 6:4 on the action is pretty intensive resulting in the Professor losing an arm, so the flashback must occur prior to that. There really isn't a neat break for the Roanoak visit but this is as best I can see. 
*M/CP 79 (6:4 -8:4) 
**M/CP 80 
**M/CP 81 
**M/CP 82 
M/CP 84 


*CRICHTON, KENNETH should be deleted. Listed under Falsworth, Kenneth 
*M/CP 89/3 
*N 27 


CROSS-WALLACE, SIR GUY 
M/CP 72/2-BTS 
*M/CP 73/2-BTS should be just M/CP 73/2 . Cross-Wallace appears in 3:5 and 5:2 
M/CP 74/2 


DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK 
A 333 
*M/CP 81 Should be deleted. Daredevil does not appear in M/CP 81 
DHAWK 6 


DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 
SLAP 1 
**M/CP 103/4 (2:1-3:5)-FB 
M/CP 103/4 
T 443 


FALSWORTH, KENNETH 
CA 253 
CA 254 
M/CP 42/3-FB 
M/CP 89/3 
*N 27 moved from Crichton, Kenneth 


GALACTUS/GALAN 
FF 244 
*M/CP 93/4-FB should read M/CP 93/2-FB 
SVC 1 


HELLER, ERIC 
M/CP 72/2 
M/CP 73/2 
**M/CP 74/2 (7:6) Heller's baked remains are shown. 


HINES, CAROL 
M/CP 79 
**M/CP 80 
**M/CP 81 
**M/CP 82 
**M/CP 83 
M/CP 84 


JONES, BART 
M/CP 83/2 
**M/CP 84/2 
**M/CP 87/2 
NW 3 


LOBO II 
WCA2 9-FB 
M/SH3 2/6 
**M/CP 72/4 (2:2-2:3)-FB Lobo II killed by Bengal 


MORAN, KEVIN 
**M/CP 105/3 (6:5) father stops mother from giving Kevin to Gorn 
**M/CP 101/3 (3:4) father threatening 
**M/CP 104/3 (2:3) mother tosses alcohol on father 
**M/CP 101/3 (3:5) father on fire 
M/CP 101/3 
M/CP 102/3 


MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS 
A 336-BTS 
*M/CP 94/4-BTS should be M/CP 94/4-VO (2:7) 
M/HOL 1991/2 


NIELS 
**{SB 1/2} 
**SB 2 
**SB 3 
**SB 4 
**SB 5/2 
**SB 6/2 
**SB 7 
**SB 10 
M/SH3 5/3 


NIGHTCRAWLER/KURT WAGNER 
UX@ 4-FB 
**M/CP 101 (4:4)-FB fleeing the crowd in Winzeldorf 
{GSX 1 (2:1 - 2:6)} 


PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER 
M/CP 85/3-FB 
*M/CP 88/3-FB should read M/CP 88/2-FB 
{UX 1} 


PYRO/ALLERDYCE "JOHNNY" ST. JOHN 
NM 89 
*M/CP 84/4 should be M/CP 84/2 
M/CP 85/2 


RED GHOST/IVAN KRAGOFF 
M/CP 88/2 
**M/CP 89/2 
M/CP 91/2 


RED WOLF III/WILL TALLTREES 
M/SH3 2/6 
**M/CP 72/4 (2:2-2:5)-FB beaten by Bengal 
M/CP 72/4 


RINTRAH 
DRSTR@ 2/3 
**M/CP 103/4 (2:1-5:5)-FB 
M/CP 103/4 
DRSTR3 38 


*ROWEN, CARL should be ROWAN, CARL (M/CP 82/3 3:2) 
*M/CP 82/2 should be M/CP 82/3 


*ROWEN, MIKE should be ROWAN, MIKE (M/CP 82/3 3:2) 
*M/CP 82/2 should be M/CP 82/3 


STACY, CAPT. GEORGE 
< see note above under CONSTRICTOR> 
**M/CP 74/3 (1-3:2)-FB murder case: Constrictor's mother and sister 
S-M -1 


THORTON, PROF. 
*M/CP 79 (1-6:3) 
[WX2 25-FB] This flashback (the slaughter of a town of people as a Weapon X test) presumably occurs after his being tested with a bear (M/CP 79 (1-4:2)). Following the bear fight, Prof. Thorton suggests the need to test Logan against man ((M/CP 79 (5:2-6:2)). From 6:4 on the action is pretty intensive resulting in the Professor losing an arm, so the flashback must occur prior to that. There really isn't a neat break for the Roanoak visit but this is as best I can see. 
*M/CP 79 (6:4 -8:4) 
**M/CP 80 
**M/CP 81 
**M/CP 82 
**M/CP 83 
M/CP 84 


WILSON, DUBOSE 
M/CP 74/2 
**M/CP 75/2 (3:2, 3:7)) 
M/CP 76/2 


WOLFE, SARA 
DRSTR3 36 
**M/CP 103/4 (2:1-5:5)-FB 
M/CP 103/4 
DRSTR3 38-FB

			*	*	*

Jan 15, 2008 4:03 pm 
By Peter Fabricius

Dr. Cornelius's name is shown to be Abraham B. Cornelius on page 2, panel 3 of the story in M/CP 72

Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Subject: Shanna the she-devil

Jan 15, 2008 10:20 pm 
By Carl Creel

I dont know if this was covered here yet or not but I am assuming that the two recent mini-series on Shanna were non-canon. Looks like the mainstream one will be appearing in Marvel Comics Presents soon.

			*	*	*

Jan 16, 2008 10:40 am 
By Selaboc

well, considering that the Shanna in the two recent mini-series has a different origin then the 616 Shanna (ie all the Nazi cloning experiment stuff) I think it's rather a given that it's not in continuity for the 616 Shanna who married the 616 Ka-zar.

			*	*	*

Thread 12

Subject: SSU

Jan 17, 2008 12:18 pm 
By scottandrewhutchins

I'm working on getting all the issues with the High Evolutionary, and I was left baffled by SSU 1, assuming it was Silver Surfer Unlimited, because SS means Silver Surfer everywhere else on the key. I searched all over for it, and only when I searched online did I discover that I was looking for a nonexistent issue. 

Since it actually refers to Scarlet Spider Unlimited #1, perhaps for consistency we should abbreviate it SCARSPIU, since Scarlet Spider is SCARSPI, to avoid the unnecessary confusion.

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Subject: Phaeder

Jan 18, 2008 10:25 am 
By scott andrewhutchins

Phaeder's only listed appearance is MTIO #72. Phaeder also appeared in ''The Evolutionary War'', presumably in XF@3/3.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sinistermeets12.jpg

			*	*	*

Jan 18, 2008 6:42 pm 
By Enda80

The Handbook confirms that was Phaeder.

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Subject: Night Raven slip-up

Jan 11, 2008 6:51 pm 
By Enda80

The recent Twelve#1 made a bit of a slip-up. In a shot of the Allied agents storming past the Brandenburg gate, Night Raven is depicted in the crowd. His official handbook entry and Alan Moore's stories show that Night Raven was amnesiac between 1941 and 1957 

On the plus side, this is one of the few times outside of the Invaders that both characters actually published during the Golden Age appear with retconned in Golden Age heroes. It is interesting that Night Raven appeared instead of relatively better known retconned in GA characters such as Stonewall, Crimson Commando, 

http://fourcolorheroes.home.insightbb.com/free.html 
http://www.milehighcomics.com/firstlook/010908/tw1one.html
http://www.milehighcomics.com/firstlook/010908/tw1two.html

			*	*	*

Jan 11, 2008 7:39 pm 
By loki

Interesting to see that you consider any discussion on one message group fair game to reproduce on another. 

As for Night Raven's appearance instead of other retcon GA characters, the reason is simple - the artist is British, so he knew of Night Raven and thought to slip him into the assemblage. Unfortunately he clearly didn't know of the character's chronology, but hey, stuff happens.

			*	*	*

Jan 11, 2008 9:35 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I made a New Year's resolution to not give Enda80 such a hard time, but as long as we're talking about the Twelve... 

In the scene described, some Allied soldiers are seen, one of which has a bandage over his eye. It's pretty obvious that it's meant to be Sgt. Fury, but the problem is he was in a coma at the time. 

Now dates are dates, and there are calendar references and temporal references, but the point of Peacemaker is that Fury missed the end of the War in Europe.(really, according to Peacemaker he missed the last six months but that's just not possible. The point is that he missed The End.(in Europe) See? I can ignore temporal references! Just not major plot points...) He couldn't have been there at the end of the War or it destroys the end to Peacemaker. Also, we can't just say this scene takes place a little earlier, because that would destroy the beginning of the Twelve. And to add to it, Dum Dum & Reb are clearly seen behind Fury. 

I don't know. This isn't placeable for Fury given his chronology. So do we ignore this appearance? He has no dialogue and he's not pointed out by another character, dialogue, or a caption. Do we pull a (Disassembled)Spider-Woman here? And if so, do we also ignore the other Howlers?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 11, 2008 10:07 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Isn't Peacemaker a MAX series?

			*	*	*

Jan 11, 2008 10:26 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Nope.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 11, 2008 10:29 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
I don't know. This isn't placeable for Fury given his chronology. So do we ignore this appearance?
<<<

I don't think we'd just ignore it. Barring some statement from Marvel that there's a mistake (not likely), it's either Fury or it isn't. 


watching: veronica mars

			*	*	*

Jan 11, 2008 11:00 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Nope.
<<<

New Marvel Knights = even better.

>>>
http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Marv ... efined.htm
Rather than ongoings, however, following the changes, Marvel Knights will be the home for limited series by high profile creative teams that fall outside of the realm of the Marvel Universe. 
<<<

			*	*	*

Jan 12, 2008 2:18 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
New Marvel Knights = even better. 
<<<

Hold up. We had this discussion two years ago. Check the Archives, ending February, 2006. 

The New Marvel Knights Ghost Rider mini is canon, the current book is a direct continuation from it. If that book, published under the New Marvel Knights is canon, then we can't just assume every New Marvel Knights book is non-canon, because at least one already is. 

A book is canon unless it can't be, regardless of which imprint it's published under. Even New Marvel Knights; Ghost Rider proves it. We can't say that Peacemaker is non-canon because it was published under the New Marvel Knights.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 12, 2008 4:39 am 
By rhod

OK I'm too lazy to read through the threads that Enda linked to, so can someone sum up why Night Raven being amnesiac stops him being in this comic?

"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

			*	*	*

Jan 12, 2008 8:58 am 
By Enda80

http://fourcolorheroes.home.insightbb.com/free.html 
http://www.milehighcomics.com/firstlook/010908/tw1one.html 
http://www.milehighcomics.com/firstlook/010908/tw1two.html
The first link is not a thread but a place you can download Alan Moore's Night Raven text stories. 

The next two links are previews of The Twelve#1. 

Night Raven was left amnesiac and lost his mask in 1941. He did not regain his memory until a new Night Raven (Howard Bates) found the mask in 1957 at an antiques store and donned it. News reports about Bates activities reawakened Night Raven's memories of his past activities and he slew Bates and reclaimed the mask.

I would guess we could write this off as an Allied propraganda trick (an imposter authorized by the OSS) if nothing more is made of Night Raven's presence.

			*	*	*

Jan 12, 2008 9:19 am 
By Enda80

Actually, the year that Night Raven disappeared was given as 1942 in the story "The Anaesthetic Wearing Off" but nevertheless the problem basically remains. "White Hopes, Red Nightmares" gives 1957 as when Night Raven reemerges.

			*	*	*

Jan 12, 2008 11:57 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
A book is canon unless it can't be, regardless of which imprint it's published under. Even New Marvel Knights; Ghost Rider proves it. We can't say that Peacemaker is non-canon because it was published under the New Marvel Knights.
<<<

Close. A book is canon, unless it can't be, or unless Marvel says it isn't. That may be Somebody's contention here. 


watching: weatherscan

			*	*	*

Jan 12, 2008 1:51 pm 
By wolframbane

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
In the scene described, some Allied soldiers are seen, one of which has a bandage over his eye. It's pretty obvious that it's meant to be Sgt. Fury, but the problem is he was in a coma at the time.
<<<

There always remains the possibility that Nick Fury woke up from his coma (with bandaged eye), was part of the action on April 25, 1945, and somehow ended back in a coma again (due to aggravation of his current injury, or a new injury perhaps, or some other event, which could have also affected his memory). 

THis may seem a bit contrived, but Marvel itself has used this very idea in UX 101, when Phoenix was bedridden for weeks, but in the X-Men Index they state she got better between pages 6-7, adventured with the X-Men in M/TU@ 1 and M/TU 53, then became bedridden again fir the rest of UX 101. 

Even we assumed that for the Dragon Man story in XFCS that Juggernaut awoke from his coma beneath the X-Mansion, joined up with Blob and fought Dragon Man, before being recaptured and placed back beneath the mansion agian.

			*	*	*

Jan 12, 2008 7:14 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Hold up. We had this discussion two years ago. Check the Archives, ending February, 2006. 
<<<

*Checks Archive 68. Wonders if we ever found what chaos Jeph's responsible for around here... *

The consensus in that thread seems, at the very least, to reverse the usual "presumption of canoncity unless..." into a "presumption of NON-canoncity unless..." for NewMK books (Jeph's "My take, again, is that if a series can slide seamlessly into continuity, not causing one single ripple, we the fans can deem it canon. But if there's one single hitch -- one single contradiction with established continuity -- forget it"), and Paul O & Russ both seemed to be saying they thought the thing amounted to "NewMK = non-canon".


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
The New Marvel Knights Ghost Rider mini is canon, the current book is a direct continuation from it. If that book, published under the New Marvel Knights is canon, then we can't just assume every New Marvel Knights book is non-canon, because at least one already is.
<<<

No, as I thought and that thread confirmed,that's an Old Marvel Knights book. It was written and at least mostly published before the decision was made to change Marvel Knights - same as Millar's Wolverine or Bendis' Daredevil. The Western GR mini by the same creative team is NewMK.

			*	*	*

Jan 13, 2008 2:48 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Wonders if we ever found what chaos Jeph's responsible for around here...  
<<<

At least we found a spot for Morlocks...

New Marvel Knights: 
That interview had a lot of maybes & probablies, but it didn't have a definitive answer. 

>>>
His answer? "For the most part". Which, although very negative, is NOT a definitive No. It seems like he's leaving the door open for an occasional MK series to be canon. 
<<<

Since the reformatting, I've noticed two kinds of minis coming from Marvel Knights: stuff in the past & stuff in the future. 

Past Stuff: 
Fury: Peacemaker
Ghost Rider: Trail of Tears 
Daredevil: Battlin' Jack Murdock

The End:
Spider-Man: Reign
Silver Surfer: Requiem
Captain America: The Chosen

It looks to me that he was leaving the door open for about half of what Marvel Knights was going to put out. Obviously, the The End minis are 'outside of the realm of the Marvel Universe', but I don't see any reason why the stuff that takes place in the past can't be in continuity. Marvel/Joe Q didn't say no, they said 'for the most part.' 


wolframbane wrote:
>>>
There always remains the possibility that Nick Fury woke up from his coma (with bandaged eye), was part of the action on April 25, 1945, and somehow ended back in a coma again (due to aggravation of his current injury, or a new injury perhaps, or some other event, which could have also affected his memory). 

THis may seem a bit contrived, but Marvel itself has used this very idea in UX 101, when Phoenix was bedridden for weeks, but in the X-Men Index they state she got better between pages 6-7, adventured with the X-Men in M/TU@ 1 and M/TU 53, then became bedridden again fir the rest of UX 101. 
<<<

That's... a good point. And there's a precedent. You may have something there...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 13, 2008 3:32 am 
By JD

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Daredevil: Battlin' Jack Murdock
<<<

Oh, darn. The MK logo is so small I didn't notice it. And there ARE continuity problems with that mini (not to the extent of Man Without Fear, though). 
But I'd really like to make it fit...

			*	*	*

Jan 13, 2008 6:50 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Give it a shot, man! I bought it... and plan to read it soon.  Whatever wrinkles there are, I'm sure we can iron them out.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 14, 2008 11:01 am 
By dimadick

Back to Night Raven, could we apply the same idea to him? Regaining his memory briefly by the end of World War II and then loosing it again until 1957. With the 1957 incarnation having some suppressed memories.

			*	*	*

Jan 15, 2008 2:30 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Either that, or it's some other guy who found the mask, ran around as Night Raven for a bit, then got rid of it. I don't know, what's the least damaging?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 15, 2008 5:45 am 
By loki

This one. Night Raven lost his memories and his mask. Getting the mask back triggered getting his memories back. We know his mask was in other people's possession in between times, as he gets it back in 1957 from Howard Bates, a serial killer who recently acquired it from it's previous owner, and who wore it himself while doing his killings (NR was triggered into hunting him due to news reports of the masked killer). So it's less of a stretch to presume that whoever owned the mask in 1945 wore it and tried to emulate NR than it is for NR to regain both mask and memories, then lose both again (and NR just getting a copy of his original mask isn't a viable option either, given how obsessed he was about getting the original back; his identity by that point was tied to that one mask).

			*	*	*

Jan 16, 2008 2:57 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

loki wrote:
>>>
We know his mask was in other people's possession in between times, as he gets it back in 1957 from Howard Bates
<<<

Sweet. So is Howard Bates Night Raven 3? And I guess that would make this Night Raven 2, right? 

Any idea what the first Night Raven's name is? The only appearance currently listed for him in the Project is the Fury/Black Widow one-shot, and it's not in there. Also, what comic detailed Night Raven's amnesia, and his recovery of the mask from Bates?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 16, 2008 3:50 am 
By dimadick

"Any idea what the first Night Raven's name is?" 

I don't think it has been revealed anywhere. He is a Native Canadian of Mohawk ancestry, so persumably his name should reflect that. 

"Also, what comic detailed Night Raven's amnesia, and his recovery of the mask from Bates?" 

The Night Raven storyline in "Marvel Superheroes" #390-393 (October, 1982 - January, 1983).

			*	*	*

Jan 16, 2008 3:21 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 16, 2008 3:59 pm 
By loki

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
loki wrote:
>>>
We know his mask was in other people's possession in between times, as he gets it back in 1957 from Howard Bates
<<<

Sweet. So is Howard Bates Night Raven 3? And I guess that would make this Night Raven 2, right? 
<<<

I don't think Bates actually used the name, just the mask, but it's been a while since I read the story.


>>>
Any idea what the first Night Raven's name is? 
<<<

It's never been given.

			*	*	*

Jan 16, 2008 5:18 pm 
By wolframbane

dimadick wrote:
>>>
"Any idea what the first Night Raven's name is?"
<<<

It is 'Unrevealed' in OHOTMU:A-Z 8. This issue also reveals another Night Raven successor Graham Poldark from the divergent Earth-9561 in NOCTURNE 1-4.

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 2:21 am 
By wolframbane

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
And to add to it, Dum Dum & Reb are clearly seen behind Fury.
<<<

The soldier just in front of Dum Dum looks generic, but more detailed than the nameless grunts in the background. I wonder if he is supposed to be "somebody"?

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Subject: The Olde Order Changeth!

Jan 18, 2008 9:11 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

We're proud to announce the addition of two stalwarts of the chronological realm to the Board of Directors of the Marvel Chronology Project.

Somebody and Col_Fury have long shown their dedication both to Chronology in general, and specifically to us here at the Project. Sometimes it seems that every time I log onto the Forum, at least one of these two is already logged in, engaging in chronological discussion, heated debate, or after-hours partying. And frequently, they also find time to help the chronological novices among us.

We're rewarding all their time and dedication and hard work, in the only manner we know how: by asking them to serve, both as Moderators of the Forum, and Directors of the Project itself. This, of course, means spending yet more time and hard work; such is the thankless life of the chronologist. I'm excited that both of them have accepted the challenge.

Three cheers for the new guys!

Russ Chappell

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 12:50 am 
By TheDeuce

congratulations! i'm sure you two will do a great job.

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 3:55 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Aw shucks, I'm still wrapping my head around the idea! 

Thanks to the Boss for the opportunity, thanks to everyone that contributes here, and congrats to Somebody!

Pretty exciting times...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 11:00 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Welcome, Fury and Somebody! It's a honor to have you both working with us.  

Now why am I reminded of Hercules conferring "the gift" on a new comrade?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 2:11 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I'd like to thank Russ for giving me this opportunity, my fellow inductee Col_Fury for offering his congrats and extend mine in reply, Paul B for welcoming me (less so for threatening to bash me on the head )... 

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 2:26 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Let's see...if I remember this correctly...Col_Fury provides the Krispy Kremes, and Somebody provides the grog... 

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 6:59 pm 
By wolframbane

Congratulations on the new recruits. You have two good resourceful people there.

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 7:08 pm 
By Starman

Congratulations, and well deserved might I add! - Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Subject: Re: January 9, 2008 Watch

Jan 11, 2008 1:01 am 
By TheDeuce

Jason Doty wrote:
>>>
 Non 616
Onslaught Reborn no.5 (Wolverine)
<<<

is Onslaught Reborn not 616? i wasn't aware. i haven't read it or anything. so maybe i won't now. what universe is it set in?

			*	*	*

Jan 11, 2008 9:52 am 
By Somebody
Director

Most of it's set in a duplicate HRverse - but it's topped & tailed in the MU, and the title character's from the MU. 

It's also crap.

			*	*	*

Jan 16, 2008 10:13 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Explain this "duplicate Heroes Reborn universe", please. I haven't been reading the series, but was under the impression it was simply set in the past of the regular HR universe. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jan 16, 2008 10:57 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I only skimmed it. But the opening is that Onslaught goes for Franklin, Franklin pulls a green ball out of his drawers and it sucks them in. And the ending is that, after she "sacrifices" herself to stop Onslaught, the Rikki-Bucky of the series ends up in the MU the day Cap was shot, and Onslaught ends up in the Neg Zone near the prison. While the original Rickki-Bucky is over on the other side of the MU's sun with Jolt, et al. 

I didn't read it closely (or for the rest of the series, recently) enough to pick nits, but the impression I got is that it's a second HRU.

			*	*	*

Jan 16, 2008 11:34 pm 
By jephyork
Director

.............. wha? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jan 17, 2008 12:01 am 
By Somebody
Director

Let's see if teh internetz can help... ah, found a couple of pages: 

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/9382/greenballssd4.jpg
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/1885/rikkibuckytwodk3.jpg

			*	*	*

Jan 18, 2008 12:35 pm 
By jephyork
Director

That ... doesn't help. :-/

I read a theory on another board that Franklin actually *recreated the HR universe then and there*, sucking all the "real" heroes back into it for the duration of his adventure.

Is the story really that incomprehensible, that the theories on what the heck happened in it are this diverse?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 10:51 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph wrote:
>>>
Is the story really that incomprehensible
<<<

In a word, yes. And it's only value seems to be getting Rikki Barnes (or some copy of her?) to mainstream earth-616 and getting Onslaught (or some version of him) to the Negative Zone, where apparently he floats around Prison 42 for a long time before anything happens (presumably a story for a future comic).

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jan 20, 2008 10:27 am 
By jehpyork
Director

"Area 41" was supposed to be Prison 42? Oy gevalt, they even got THAT wrong...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Subject: Topical chronologies for 20th century characters

Jan 19, 2008 1:57 am 
By wolframbane

For numerous 20th and 21st century characters (often historical) from the MCP, their personal chronologies generally place their actual appearances in a story, although their actual appearances are often topical to when the issue was published. This generally encompasses politicians and celebrities (like Presidents). One problem that I forsee when these same characters are later published in a historical story such as a flashback, time travel or period story. An example is Neil Armstrong, first man on the moon, made a topical appearance in FF 98 during the Apollo mission (which may be retconned forward in time), but in M/:LG 6, Armstrong was again shown during the Apollo 11 mission, although this one definitely placed in 1969.

I propose that for historic characters whom the sliding timeline and later non-topical appearances would prove difficult, we actually create two listings for each character, one maintaining their topical appearances, one with their non-topical appearances. This way we can ensure that all their appearances are accounted for, but not confuse what could be contradictory in latter day revisions. For example:

ARMSTRONG, NEIL ALDEN (TOPICAL)
FF 98

ARMSTRONG, NEIL ALDEN (NON-TOPICAL)
M/:LG 6

KENNEDY, JOHN FITZGERALD (TOPICAL)
CS 14
WI? 4
{FF 17}
JIM 96
TOS 41
TOS 43

KENNEDY, JOHN FITZGERALD (NON-TOPICAL)
CS 14
WI? 4
M/:LG 3-BTS
M/:LG 4-BTS

NIXON, RICHARD MILHOUS (TOPICAL)
H2 119
A 82
FF 103
FF 104
H2 139
A 92-BTS
AT 1/2
SUB-M 44-BTS
CA 144
SUB-M 47-BTS
T 187
H2 147
FF 123
H2 152
A 101-BTS
H2 174

NIXON, RICHARD MILHOUS (NON-TOPICAL)
M/PRM 37
M/:LG 7

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 5:14 am 
By Enda80

This is a good idea. The sliding timescale creates these sorts of issues, and as Kim Newman points out, it muddies things up to have people living beyond when they died historically. 

Hirohito comes to mind as a problem of this sort. Olshevsky gives Hirohito some bts appearances for Moses Magnum's attack on Japan, the first Wolverine limited series, and the courtship of Mariko Yashida. (Of course, since Hirohito was allegedly a divine being to the State Shinto Militarists, and the Kami have been shown to exist on Earth-616, unusual longevity on his part is not so troublesome).

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 10:21 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

I think it unncessarily confuses things.

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
...as Kim Newman points out, it muddies things up to have people living beyond when they died historically.
<<<

Perhaps, but proposing there were two different Presidents named John Fitzgerald Kennedy makes things even muddier. That's Richard Milhous Nixon in all those books, and they're all canon. I'd rather document what's in the books, and leave it up to the readers to mull over the "sliding timeline." It's not the "sliding timeline" that causes these problems; the inherent problem is caused by publishing stories of fifty-year-old characters, set in the eternal now. And I don't really have a problem with that. My recommendation: shrug your shoulders.


watching: fox 6 news

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 11:00 am 
By Enda80

I am not suggesting two "men with the name JFK existed", just that a little note to the effect that the character depicted in a particular story actually represents an as yet undemaricated analog would help. 

After all, the Fantastic Four Encyclopedia replaced Idi Amin with Eda Arul for an issue of MTIO with the Black Panther.

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 2:42 pm 
By wolframbane

Administrator wrote:
>>>
I think it unncessarily confuses things.

Perhaps, but proposing there were two different Presidents named John Fitzgerald Kennedy makes things even muddier. That's Richard Milhous Nixon in all those books, and they're all canon. I'd rather document what's in the books, and leave it up to the readers to mull over the "sliding timeline." It's not the "sliding timeline" that causes these problems; the inherent problem is caused by publishing stories of fifty-year-old characters, set in the eternal now. And I don't really have a problem with that. My recommendation: shrug your shoulders.
<<<

It is not my intent to propose that there were two President JFKs or two astronauts named Armstrong, but to merely account for two differing set of appearances for the same character that cannot be easily reconciled. I accept that the topical 1960s-1970s depictions of Nixon are canonical, but so are his later appearances during flashbacks to the non-topical 1960s-1970s. But if we want to fully account for every chronological appearance, we would have to either mix both set of appearances together, which would muddy the waters even more (both the First Line and the Fantastic Four were on the moon during Apollo 11 and fighting off unrelated Skrull and Kree incursions?), or to ignore one set of appearances over another. 

It is my thought to separate the two kinds of appearances of the character to keep track of every appearance, but to also note if the appearance is topical or non-topical. This allows us to accomodate all the appearances while acknowledging how they can occur in contradictory stories. With the (TOPICAL) and (NON-TOPICAL) label, despite it being the same character, we can identify what the appearance was meant to be.

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 3:12 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm probably misunderstanding you here, but...

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
But if we want to fully account for every chronological appearance, we would have to either {a} mix both set of appearances together, {...} (both the First Line and the Fantastic Four were on the moon during Apollo 11 and fighting off unrelated Skrull and Kree incursions?), or {b} to ignore one set of appearances over another.
<<<

I would much prefer the former option (mixing both sets of appearances together, fudging the name of the mission, or that it was the first lunar landing) over the latter (ignoring one set of appearances). But that's just me.

For that matter, how would option b "fully account for every chronological appearance"?


watching: tru calling

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 6:46 pm 
By wolframbane

My apologies admin. When I said that to accomodate all the appearances we would either need to "mix both set of appearances together" or " ignore one set of appearances over another", what I meant is that neither set fully accomodates the criteria to allow for both TOPICAL and NON-TOPICAL appearances, and that to fully accomodate both these categories we should consider two separate categories for historical characters. It is in this way, we can allow for both contradictory events to occur without overlooking any appearances.

			*	*	*

Jan 20, 2008 12:37 pm 
By cweed4

I second the "shrug your shoulders" vote.

			*	*	*

Jan 20, 2008 6:08 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Would it be workable to just tag topical or non-topical appearances as such in the chronologies?

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Subject: Damage Control Staff

Jan 20, 2008 5:13 pm 
By Arthur
Director

Damage Control staff plus some odds and ends:

**new listing
* adjustment


**ACKERDSON, HENRY 
-- DAMCON 3 references M/AGE@ 4 saying that Henry tried to sign up the HULK as spokesperson. I do not have a copy of M/AGE@ 4. Can anyone verify if Henry (and the HULK) are actually represented?
**DAMCON 3
**DAMCON2 1
**DAMCON2 2-BTS
**DAMCON2 3
**DAMCON3 1
**DAMCON3 2
**DAMCON3 3


**BALLINGER, LENNY 
**DAMCON 4 (5:8 - 20:4)-FB
**M/CP 19/4-BTS
**DAMCON3 2 (13:1/2) Lenny already at work site when Rex arrives on the morning of DAMCON 1
**DAMCON 1
**DAMCON 2
**DAMCON 3 (1:1 - 1:5)-FB recorded Damage Control ad
**DAMCON 3
**DAMCON 4
**DAMCON2 1
**DAMCON2 2
**DAMCON2 3
**DAMCON2 4
**DAMCON3 1
**DAMCON3 2
**DAMCON3 3
**DAMCON3 4


BUSH, GEORGE 
MK:DWF
**DAMCON2 1-BTS (4:6)
A 327-BTS


**ROBIN CHAPEL
**DAMCON 4 (5:8 - 20:4)-FB
**DAMCON 1
**DAMCON 2
**DAMCON 3 (1:1 - 1:5)-FB recorded Damage Control ad
**DAMCON 3
**DAMCON 4
**DAMCON2 1
**DAMCON2 2
**DAMCON2 3 (2/3:5)-FB 
**DAMCON2 3
**DAMCON2 4
**DAMCON3 1
**DAMCON3 2
**DAMCON3 3
**DAMCON3 4


**ALBERT CLEARY
**DAMCON 4 (5:8 - 20:4)-FB
**DAMCON 1
**DAMCON 2
**DAMCON 3 (1:1 - 1:5)-FB recorded Damage Control ad
**DAMCON 3
**DAMCON 4
**DAMCON2 1
**DAMCON2 2
**DAMCON2 3
**DAMCON2 4
**DAMCON3 1
**DAMCON3 2
**DAMCON3 3
**DAMCON3 4


CYCLOPS II/SCOTT SUMMERS 
UX 185
**DAMCON 4-FB
DAZZ 38
X&AF 1


**EDIFICE REX
**DAMCON3 2 (13:1/2) Rex arrives at work the morning of DAMCON 1)
**DAMCON 1 
**DAMCON3 1-BTS
**DAMCON3 2
**DAMCON3 3
**DAMCON3 4


GYRICH, HENRY PETER 
FF 335
**DAMCON2 4
P:NE


**LEAHY, MARIE
**DAMCON 2
**DAMCON2 1
**DAMCON2 2
**DAMCON2 3


**LIPPERT, RAY
**DAMCON2 2 (21:1-21:3)-FB
**DAMCON2 2
**DAMCON2 3
**DAMCON2 4
**DAMCON3 1
**DAMCON3 2
**DAMCON3 3
**DAMCON3 4


PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER 
UX 192
*DAMCON 4 Should read DAMCON 4-FB
UX@ 8


**ROZUM, BART
**DAMCON 1
**DAMCON 2
**DAMCON 3
**DAMCON 4
**DAMCON2 1
**DAMCON2 2
**DAMCON2 3
**DAMCON2 4
**DAMCON3 1
**DAMCON3 2
**DAMCON3 3
**DAMCON3 4


**SOURIS, MICHEL
**DAMCON2 1
**DAMCON2 2
**DAMCON2 3 (2/3:5)-FB 
**DAMCON2 3
**DAMCON2 4


STANKOWICZ, FABIAN 
CA 366
**DAMCON2 3
CA 367


**STRAUSSER, EUGENE ``GENE`` (last name SAILORS in DAMCON 2, but STRAUSSER everywhere else)
**DAMCON 4 (5:8 - 20:4)-FB
**DAMCON 1
**DAMCON 2
**DAMCON 3
**DAMCON 4
**DAMCON2 1
**DAMCON2 2
**DAMCON2 3
**DAMCON2 4


THUNDERBALL/DR. ELIOT FRANKLIN
PPTSS 126
**DAMCON 1 (5:8/2-9:3)-FB
DAMCON 1


**WASHINGTON, ROBERT 
**DAMCON 1 
**DAMCON2 1
**DAMCON2 3

			*	*	*

Jan 20, 2008 5:31 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

The next update will see a lot of Damage Control stuff added, thanks to an analysis from JLH here.


watching: san diego vs new england

			*	*	*

Jan 20, 2008 9:47 pm 
By Arthur
Director

Interesting comparing. As they say, two heads are better than one....

Here's a comparison noting all the variances, with added page:panel references where appropriate. I figured before you could post updates youd have to compare/blend the two anyway, so I thought maybe I could save you some of the work.  


ACKERDSON, HENRY 
i) I included DAMCON2 2-BTS: (10:1) Jarvis states that your Mr Ackerdson was very persuasive in convincing the Avengers to contract Damage Control despite being costly
ii) I missed the DAMCON3 3-FB (Henry playing himself in the movie).

BALLINGER, LENNY 
i) I have M/CP 19/4 showing as BTS. It shouldnt be BTS.
ii) I included DAMCON3 2 (13:1/2)-FB (I lost the FB in my post) Lenny already at work site when Rex arrives on the morning of DAMCON 1
iii) I included DAMCON 3 (1:1 - 1:5)-FB recorded Damage Control ad

BUSH, GEORGE same

CHAPEL, ROBIN 
i) I included DAMCON 3 (1:1 - 1:5)-FB recorded Damage Control ad

CLEARY, ALBERT
i) I included DAMCON 3 (1:1 - 1:5)-FB recorded Damage Control ad

CYCLOPS II/SCOTT SUMMERS 
UX 185
**DAMCON 4-FB
DAZZ 38

EDIFICE REX
i) I included DAMCON3 2 (13:1/2)-FB (I lost the FB in my post) Rex arrives at work the morning of DAMCON 1
ii) I missed DAMCON3 3-FB (3/3:4) new info in recap page

GYRICH, HENRY PETER 
I placed Gyrichs appearance AFTER FF 335 instead on BEFORE because:

i) both Cap and Thor show DAMCON2 4 after FF 334. In fact following FF 334, Cap appears in CA 365, DAMCON2 2, C&D3 9, CA 366, A 312, PUN2 29, DAMCON2 3, AWC 54, NF3 10, CA 367, A 313 and AWC 55 before DAMCON2 4
ii) ii) FF 335 occurs same day as FF 334; it seems improbable that all of Caps experiences between FF334 and DAMCON2 4 could be done in less than a day, therefore DAMCON2 4 would occur after FF 335.

LEAHY, MARIE
i) I included DAMCON2 1 (7:1)
ii) I included DAMCON2 2 (9:6)

LIPPERT, RAY
i) I included DAMCON2 2 (21:1-21:3)-FB Ray relates irrelevant story about his pet dog.

PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER same
ROZUM, BART same
SOURIS, MICHEL same
STANKOWICZ, FABIAN same
STRAUSSER, EUGENE "GENE" same
THUNDERBALL/DR. ELIOT FRANKLIN same
WASHINGTON, ROBERT same

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Subject: Spidey in ASM 365/2

Jan 21, 2008 12:59 pm 
By cweed4

Currently there is no listing for Spidey in ASM 365/2. He appears in the final panel of the story swinging ouside the Daily Bugle. The listing for JJJ puts this story between ASM 364 and ASM 366. I suggest updating the chronology for Spidey as such:

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER:
ASM 364
*ASM 365/2
ASM 365/3
ASM 365
ASM 366

ASM 365/3 shows Spidey arriving home from webslinging so its an ideal spot to place this minor appearance (for both story and release purposes).

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Subject: New Forum Coming

Dec 31, 2007 6:11 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

The folks who produce our forum software (phpbb.com) have released a major update to the Forum software, and we'll be upgrading our Forum here, in the next month or so.

Unfortunately, my current web host doesn't provide the most recent version of PHP, which is a requirement of the new software, so we're going to be moving the entire site to a new host, to accomodate the changes in the forum.

The target date for the changeover will be on or about February 1, but I'll keep everyone up-to-date as Zero Hour approaches, because during the changeover, the forum (and perhaps other parts of the site, as well) will be unavailable.

If you're interested in a sneak preview of the new forum's look and feel, check out phpBB's own forum.

Russ

			*	*	*

Jan 18, 2008 8:42 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

And...we're here. A little early.

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 12:46 am 
By TheDeuce

i like the new look. cool.

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 10:28 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks. We still have a lot of sprucing up to do (for instance, I'd like to see the comic cover backgrounds return), but we need to spend a few weeks, learning our way around this new software first. Everyone, I as the Administrator, our experienced Moderators, the new Moderators, and even all the registered users have a lot more flexibility and customization available to us (have you checked out the User Control Panel?), and we all have a lot of exploring to do, before we start changing things around.


watching: fox 6 news

			*	*	*

Jan 21, 2008 11:07 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Administrator wrote:
>>>
We still have a lot of sprucing up to do (for instance, I'd like to see the comic cover backgrounds return)
<<<

Woo hoo! Yay, Me!


watching: life after people

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Subject: It the Living Colossus

Jan 23, 2008 10:54 pm 
By SeanCurtin

The It who appears in M/CP 169/4 is the robot It from WM@ 2/3, not the original It.

IT
H2 244
[M/CP 169/4 - remove]
AT:WMB 2

IT III
WM@ 2/3
**M/CP 169/4

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Subject: Frankenstein in OHOTMU: Horror

Jan 24, 2008 1:47 am 
By wolframbane

Would anyone happen to have their copy of OHOTMU: Horror handy? I was curious as to the official take of some events of the history of Frankenstein. Did the events of Frankenstein 1973 and 1974 in Monsters Unleashed actually within those years, or are they part of the sliding timeline? And were the characters of 'Frank' from Marvel: The Lost Generation #5 and 'Adam" from Bloodstone #1-4 confirmed or hinted at being the same character of Frankenstein Monster?

			*	*	*

Jan 24, 2008 4:07 pm 
By Peter Fabricius

It is explicitly stated that the Frankenstein Monster is Adam from the Bloodstone series, but that it is unknown whether there is a connection with Frank from Marvel: The Lost Generation.

As to the Monsters Unleashed stories, the are said to occur 'sometime in the latter 20th century'Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Jan 25, 2008 1:57 pm 
By wolframbane

Thanks Peter

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Subject: High Evolutionary

Jan 25, 2008 10:19 am 
By scottandrewhutchins

The Wikipedia entry makes clear that the High Evolutionary has appeared in some recent storylines that come after his last listed appearance in the chronology (UXM 389).

I've been collecting High Evolutionary appearances and need to know which issues to add to my list.

Of course, the fact that Tom DeFalco wrote his re-emergence after The Evolutionary War is making some pretty tedious reading with all its sledgehammer exposition and quaint comicbook-isms... Is DeFalco the worst writer of his time? Considering he turned Omega the Unknown into a chatterbox, I would have to guess yes,

			*	*	*

Jan 25, 2008 10:49 am 
By Somebody
Director

Annihilation Conquest #1-3 (and counting), and a couple of the early Endangered Species backups.

			*	*	*

Jan 25, 2008 2:13 pm 
By scottandrewhutchins

Specific issues would be helpful.

I found some additional appearances in an online search:

Avengers #234
Warlock 2, 3, 15
Strange Tales #178
Wolverine vol. 2 #149

			*	*	*

Jan 25, 2008 5:18 pm 
By scottandrewhutchins

Through comics.org and mycomicshop.com, I came up with this list that I posted on Wikipedia, though some of the flashbacks won't be quantifiable.

* Alpha Flight vol. 1 #113
* Annihilation Conquest #1-3
* Avengers vol. 1 #186, 187, 234, 380-382
* Giant-Size Avengers vol.1 #1 (flashback)
* The Evolutionary War 1987 annuals:
o X-Factor Annual #3
o The Punisher Annual #1
o Silver Surfer Annual #1
o New Mutants Annual #4
o The Amazing Spider-Man Annual #22
o Fantastic Four Annual #21
o The Uncanny X-Men Annual #12
o Web of Spider-Man Annual #4
o West Coast Avengers Annual #3
o Alf Annual #1
o The Spectacular Spider-Man Annual #8
o Avengers Annual #17
* Doctor Strange, Sorcerer Supreme #47
* Excalibur vol. 1 #51, 113
* Fantastic Four #171-175, 176 (behind the scenes), 178, 179
* Fantastic Four Annual #23 (Days of Future Present)
* Fantastic Four Unlimited #9
* Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man #24 (Spider-Man: One More Day)
* Gambit vol. 3 # (behind the scenes)
* Heroes for Hire vol. 1 #15-17
* Heroes for Hire/Quicksilver Annual 98
* Incredible Hulk vol. 1 #149, 158, 179, 266
* Iron Man #111
* Ka-Zar vol. 4 #12-14
* Marvel Premiere #1, 2
* Marvel Spotlight #32
* Marvel Two-in-One #30, 62-63, 74
* The Mighty Thor vol. 1 #132-133 (behind the scenes), 134, 135, 406-408, 417, 419, 420, 422-425, 448-450, 472-477, 479-484, 486-489
* The Mighty Thor Annual #19
* Quicksilver #1, 7-12
* Rune #21
* Scarlet Spider Unlimited #1
* The Spectacular Spider-Man vol. 1 #142, 143 (behind the scenes)
* Spider-Man: Dead Mans Hand #1
* Spider-Man Family #1
* Spider-Woman vol.1, #1, vol. 3 # 6, vol. 4 #1
* Giant-Size Spider-Woman #1
* Spider-Woman: Origin #2
* Strange Tales vol. 1 #178
* Tales to Astonish vol. 1 #94-96
* Thanos #2
* Uncanny Origins #2
* The Uncanny X-Men #379, 380
* The Uncanny X-Men Annual 99
* Warlock vol. 1 #1-3, 5, 8, 15
* Warlock and the Infinity Watch #1, 3, 4
* Wolverine vol. 2 #149
* X-Factor vol. 3, #21 (X-Men: Endangered Species)
* X-Men #99

Non-continuity

* Earth X #11
* Marvel Adventures #15
* Spider-Man Unlimited vol. 2 #1, 2, 4
* What If vol. 1 #32, vol. 2 #1

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Subject: Illuminati 5

Nov 07, 2007 9:28 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

It's probably safe to say that this issue takes place the furthest in the future in relation to all the other books at the moment. As Somebody mentioned, this is after the Namor mini & WWH, and it's after the current New Avengers arc, and by extension the current(and next) Mighty Avengers arc. Most likely, this is also post-Messiah CompleX... I guess we'll find out soon enough. Also, it's to be continued in Secret Invasion, which won't start until next year. 

As for Skrull imposters, I don't think it will alter the order of events that we've hammered out, as some people have been worried about. It's not like there are two versions of the characters running around at the same time, the real one is stolen away and replaced by a Skrull. So while the chronologies won't be affected, the listings will, when it's revealed when some characters have been replaced. 

There's a fun extra in the back called 'Fury's Files' that has notes on the X-Men. Among his notes is a bit from X-Men: First Class, which is nice to see, but at the bottom there's a bit about Dave Cockrum's original idea for Storm. Does Fury know he exists in a fictional universe?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Nov 07, 2007 9:51 pm 
By Mikhail

I agree this is the latter-most story, with the possible exception of Ms. Marvel. The latest issue, #21, made reference to Stark getting paranoid and changing all the emergency frequencies and such because of...um...something secret Wonder Man wasn't allowed to share with Carol's crew. This seems like an obvious reference to the Skrully-ness. Now, he could've done this after getting the corpse but Pre-Illuminati #5, but since we haven't even seen him get the corpse yet, we don't know how that lines up with the symbiotes and everything else.

			*	*	*

Nov 08, 2007 1:56 pm 
By Somebody
Director

We not just continuing this in the "Bendis blows..." thread? 

Anyway, feel free to laugh at the last line here: 

Brian Michael Bendis @ Newsarama wrote:
>>>
NRAMA: Okay  scheduling covered, but to get to the other point among fans  the continuity of it all. Since a (recovered) Black Bolt is a main player, this issue takes place after World War Hulk, then?

BB: Right  this is set after World War Hulk and Civil War - this is happening as close to whatever today is in the Marvel Universe as you can get.

[...]

NRAMA: A few other points  Tonys armor recognized the two other incoming Skrulls in the issue, but not Black Bolt, as we mentioned. Was that because the incoming two wanted to be recognized, or that they werent, morphologically looking like humans?

BB: We will make it very clear when the time is appropriate  theres a very specific science as to when they can be detected and not be detected. Its very specific. Its in New Avengers #40 - its all going to be laid out there.

NRAMA: And Black Bolt  when did he get Skrullified, and where is he?

BB: All will be made clear.
<<<

			*	*	*

Nov 08, 2007 3:09 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
BB: All will be made clear.
<<<


That sounds familiar...weren't we told that about Nick Fury?? When the original "Illuminati" one-shot was coming out, Bendis said, "This one-shot will explain Nick Fury!!!" And all we got was a reveal that the Fury from a Hulk storyline was a LMD...hell, it was Dan Slott that basically spelled out which Fury's were LMD's in the pages of She-hulk.

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001

			*	*	*

Nov 08, 2007 7:53 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Speaking of Fury, click on Somebody's link and read further down...  

This doean't have anything to do with chronology, but I really, really liked Namor in this issue. Hell, I liked the whole issue. 

Back to Ms. Marvel: I guess that depends on how Mighty Avengers 7 turns out. Brian Reed co-wrote this mini, so I would think he'd be 'in the loop' for the Mighty Avengers plots. Time will tell!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Nov 08, 2007 11:27 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

After WWH? Really?? So it seems that Stark was sitting on the Elektra Skrull for a while before he decided to share it with the other Illuminati...

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 09, 2007 12:16 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Or, Spider-Woman sat on the Elektra Skrull for a while before giving it to Stark. She might have been delayed by the symbiote virus, or WWH, or she might have just thought about it for a while. Apparently a lot of things will line up in Mighty Avengers 7, and I think that's where the body will be handed over. Hopefully there's a break in there somewhere for WWH. 

I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but am I right in thinking that the New Avengers have stayed together since the end of Civil War? I'm pretty sure that there's not a 'forming' like there is for the Mighty Avengers. What I mean is, Civil War ends, the anti-registration guys(New Avnegers) stay together, time goes by, the New Avengers are still hanging out in Dr. Strange's place, time goes by, then the Mighty Avengers form. Right?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Nov 09, 2007 8:17 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but am I right in thinking that the New Avengers have stayed together since the end of Civil War? 
<<<

That's the general impression we get from the tail end of CW 7. BTS, Strange returns from isolation and opens the doors of his Sanctum Sanctorum to the remaining Resistance members, becoming a "New Avenger" in the process. The group is probably loose at this point, with Danny resuming his Iron Fist identity BTS and going off to IF5 1-14 and F@ 1.


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Or, Spider-Woman sat on the Elektra Skrull for a while before giving it to Stark. She might have been delayed by the symbiote virus, or WWH, or she might have just thought about it for a while. Apparently a lot of things will line up in Mighty Avengers 7, and I think that's where the body will be handed over. Hopefully there's a break in there somewhere for WWH. 
<<<

It makes sense for Spider-Woman to hand the Skrull over to Stark during the couple of days between A4 32 and 34. That explains her presense with the Mighty Ones during the symbiote attack in A4 34. I prefer to think of Stark holding back on the Skrull reveal for his own reasons. 

We may have a number of things, including Fallen Son, occurring between the current New Avengers and Mighty Avengers arcs and World War Hulk. Why do I think that things lining up in MA 7 is wishful thinking?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 11, 2007 1:01 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

On page 3 of Illuminati v2 #5, one of the Illuminati (not Black Bolt or Iron Man, based on word balloon appearace) is surprised to see Xavier walking. The problem with this is that, during Civil War, the walking Xavier attended T'Challa's and Ororo's wedding, which also was attended by Mr. Fantastic, Iron Man, and Sub-Mariner. Strange is actually seen talking to Xavier on one panel of BP4 18, so he can't be the one who's surprised. 

If it is Namor who's surprised to see Xavier walking, then NA:I2 5 must occur before the current Sub-Mariner mini-series, because Namor sees the walking Xavier in SUBM2 3-FB (and makes no big deal about it then). If it's impossible for the current SUBM2 mini to occur after NA:I2 5 (given Stark's vague reference to Atlantis" in his list of recent disasters), then... 

It must be Reed who's surprised to see Xavier walking Even though he was in close proximity to Xavier at the wedding at one point, we'd have to argue that Reed just didn't see Xavier. I can't think of any other time since Xavier regained his ability to walk in X:DG that Reed and Xavier were together. 

And when does the current SUBM2 series occur relative to World War Hulk? In the SUBM2 mini, Atlantis is destroyed. In H3 107, Namor warns Namora not to join the war with Hulk because it could threaten Atlantis. We don't actually see Atlantis in H3 107, but should we presume that it was still standing during WWH? If so, then the SUBM2 mini must occur after WWH. Placing NAI2 5 after the mini would increase the gap between the current (pre-WWH) New Avengers/Mighty Avengers story arcs and NA:I2 5. 

We could argue that a substantial amount of time passes between the delivery of the Elektra Skrull to Stark and his sharing the information with his fellow Illuminati. During this time, SHIELD is investigating the whereabouts of the real Elektra (as noted in NA:I2 5) to find out the circumstances of her impersonation, and Stark could be tightening security in preparation for the worst (as shown in MSM2 21), but keeping things close to the vest for fear of tipping his hand to any Skrulls that may be around. Plus, Stark has to deal with any number of other crises, not the least of which is World War Hulk. 

As uncomfortable as I am in placing a time gap between A4 34 and NA:I2 5, I'll do it for now...until MA 7 blows that to shreds. :? 

Argh. Blast the contorted convolutions of Bendis-time!

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 11, 2007 1:39 pm 
By Somebody
Director

It's Dr Strange - the speech bubble in question has blue-on-white writing & outlines, and that's used in this issue only to indicate his speech, as he's in astral form - Iron Man has red-on-white, squared balloons, Skrulls have white-on-green, and everyone else (including Xavier, Reed & Namor) have standard black-on-white. 

It's absolute proof of who said it - I don't know how you missed that.

Last edited by Somebody on Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

			*	*	*

Nov 11, 2007 1:54 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
It's absolute proof of who said it - I don't know how you missed that.
<<<

I'm dismissing it. Strange clearly knew Xavier could walk as he was talking to him at T'Challa's wedding.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 11, 2007 2:02 pm 
By Somebody
Director

If you're taking that tack, then dismiss it completely rather than trying to reinterpret it.

			*	*	*

Nov 11, 2007 3:36 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
If you're taking that tack, then dismiss it completely rather than trying to reinterpret it.
<<<

Why? The words are there. No need to ignore them completely if we just chalk up the color of the letters to an inker's error.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 11, 2007 6:09 pm 
By SeanCurtin

We could also attribute the contents of the speech balloon to a writer's error. Either explanation requires dismissing some part of the dialogue as an error. 

If you really want to keep the line as is without attributing it to another character, you could have Strange about to ask Xavier how he regained the use of his legs, and Xavier intentionally preempting the question with "It's a long story." This doesn't presume that Strange hasn't seen Xavier walking, only that he doesn't know how it happened. (Of course, if Strange learned how it happened at T'Challa's wedding, this explanation doesn't work.)

			*	*	*

Nov 12, 2007 7:42 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

That interpretation doesn't really work with the dialog shown, though, as Strange offers Xavier his "congratulations," which you figure he would have done at the wedding.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 12, 2007 8:05 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Here's another vote to just ignore it. 

Your current plan, Paul, seems to be to re-interpret the line into something Bendis didn't mean -- then to use that re-interpretation as a placement clue. 

Sorry, but that's really reaching. If it's an irreconcilable error (and it is), then it should be ignored. NOT twisted into something new and then used as a clue for placement. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Nov 13, 2007 11:32 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I don't think I ever suggested a reinterpretation of the coloring of the dialog balloon as a clue for placement. No, not at all. Illuminati v2 #5 must occur after BP4 18. Period, end of statement. I'm just trying to make that work. You know, trying for a "no prize" for an obvious error by throwing away the least content? 

Is everyone really suggesting that erasing the entire statement from existence is better than acknowledging it was said but reattributing it?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 14, 2007 10:47 am 
By SeanCurtin

I think the point is that reattributing the dialogue is a fundamental reintereptation of the dialogue, which would be no more of a fundamental change than ignoring it completely. 

Also, on semi-related note, the recent Sub-Mariner miniseries is SUB-M3. SUB-M2 was a miniseries that was published in the mid-80s.

			*	*	*

Nov 15, 2007 8:12 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Then I'm going to have to disagree on that one. We'd also have to completely ignore Xavier's response to the comment as well. I think making the blue letters black (reattributing the word balloon from off-panel Strange to off-panel Reed), and leaving Xavier's response intact is less of a hatchet job than removing the dialog outright. Now if we had actually seen Reed with Xavier at the wedding as well, I'd say we'd have no choice but to pretend the dialog isn't there. 

I think we all agree the dialog in this post-CW story is a mistake, given CW-era BP4 18. Not that any of this has an impact on chronology anyway.  

Good discussion.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Nov 15, 2007 9:22 am 
By Somebody
Director

Question - what difference does on-panel/off-panel make? As long as there is an indication of who the speaker is, it's just as strong if there's a balloon tail pointing to Strange, Xavier saying "Thanks, Stephen" to the congrats, or a character-specific speech bubble style as in this case.

			*	*	*

Nov 15, 2007 9:04 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Standard disclaimer applies. 

As I understand it, there's a mistake somewhere. Either Marvel has made a mistake of chronological-placement clues, or they've made a mistake in word-balloon coloring. 

My feeling is that we should consider the chronological-placement clue to be faulty, because I believe that's the option that Marvel would choose, thereby electing to maintain the integrity of the individual stories. 

Or have I misunderstood the problem? 


watching: arizona vs oregon

			*	*	*

Nov 15, 2007 9:29 pm 
By Somebody
Director

No, you've got it. Apparently, Xavier & Strange met post-HoM in the background of a Black Panther issue, but NA:I #5 treats it as the first time Strange has seen Xavier since M-Day. Paul B wants to reattribute Strange's dialogue to someone else as a result. 

On the Bendis Scale of continuity errors, it's relatively minor 

			*	*	*

Dec 02, 2007 10:34 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Now that the SUB-MARINER mini has wrapped up, we see from its conclusion that NA:I2 5 must occur before, not after, the mini. Besides, look at Namor's ankle wings in NA:I2 5 -- they're all there. Two of the four were ripped out by Venom in SUBM3 3-FB. 

Did anyone notice the similarities in endings between the SUB-MARINER mini and the SILENT WAR mini? Speaking of SILENT WAR... 

For reasons previously mentioned, we have both NA:I2 5 and the bulk of SILWAR occurring after World War Hulk. And it seems very odd to place the revelation of the Skrull in NA:I2 5 before the conclusion of SILWAR. So it appears our sequence is... 

WWH 
SILWAR 
NA:I2 5 
SUBM3

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 02, 2007 10:43 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Why does it need to occur "after". I gave up on the mini a couple of issues back, but Atlantis' destruction is referenced in NA:I #5. 

And if we ever see Namor with missing ankle wings again, hat eating will follow.

			*	*	*

Dec 02, 2007 11:34 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Namor has had his ankle wings removed violently before.(they were either ripped off or burned away back in Byrne's Namor series) They grew back then, I'm sure they'll grow back now.  

And as Somebody said, Atlantis' destruction is mentioned in Illuminati 5.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 03, 2007 8:07 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
And as Somebody said, Atlantis' destruction is mentioned in Illuminati 5.
<<<

Actually, I don't see that. Iron Man's line is: "Think about the year we've had. The Avengers destroyed. We're fighting each other. The mutants are all but gone. Atlantis...Nick Fury is out. And Captain America is dead." 

Stark never says "Atlantis destroyed." Couldn't the reference be to the new state of strained relations between Atlantis and the surface world (growing out of the events of CW), as a specific example of "we're fighting each other?" 

Regarding the wings (and even Namor's wearing of the old costume in NA:I2 5; not the one he adopts in SUBM2 6), I suppose we'll need to wait and see how he's depicted in comics yet to be published. And we'll need to wait and see how they follow up on NA:I2 5. Ugh. 

It also struck me as odd that Namor would respond to Stark's call in NA:I2 5 after the events of SUBM2 6. Namor's whereabouts, and those of his people, are supposed to be under the radar after SUBM2 6. And it was Stark who forced Namor's hand to make his drastic decision; gotta be resentment there. Also, Stark doesn't seem too concerned with knowing the fate of the Atlantean people (a major security issue) in NA:I2 5. Of course, the whole Skrull threat may be pushing such concerns out of his mind. But as mentioned before, the nagging thing is that if the Skrull threat is that bad, why did he wait to act on the Elektra Skrull revelation? 

A "common thread" observation: the surface world of earth is infiltrated by both Skrulls and Atlanteans, and we're supposed to have Attilan's population coming here too. 

Definitely not a clean chronology here.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 03, 2007 8:15 am 
By Somebody
Director

I was never referring to Stark. I was referring to Namor's "...my Empire crumbled all around me." VERY clear signs of resentment on that page too...

			*	*	*

Dec 04, 2007 8:07 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Somebody. That clears that up! Namor says "Well, I wish I knew we were allowed to call each other together before my empire crumbled all around me." Iron Man says, "You could have called us. The real question is: why didn't you?" Namor replies, "I didn't know I could trust you." At first that dialog didn't make sense to me. After all, Stark himself was all over that SUBM2 mini. But I see now the reference is to that period of "two days" between Bentonville getting blasted and Iron Man being called in to contain Namor. Instead of going to the Illuminati, Namor chose to go to Doom. 

So, apparently Namor's wings grow back and he redons his old black costume after SUBM3 6. Namlor is probably residing in Latveria at the time of NA:I2 5. And I guess Stark's not pressing the point of the whereabouts of Namor's people (just like he isn't pressing Strange about the New Avengers) because of the severity of the Skrull situation. 

But with SUBM3 1-6 occurring after WWH and A:I2 5 occurring after SUBM3 6, that just lengthens the delay between Spider-Woman's delivery of the Elektra Skrull to Stark and NA:I2 5. I hope they explain this delay. Sure, Stark's busy (he appears in nearly every Marvel comic these days!), but we're given the impression that the Skrull threat trumps everything else in Stark's mind, at least at the time of NA:I2 5. Perhaps he didn't realize the full implications of the Elektra Skrull for a while?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 04, 2007 11:20 am 
By jephyork
Director

Since the "delay" is only in the minds of folks like us, I doubt it will ever be "explained" to anyone's satisfaction. 

But the impression that NA:I #5 left me with was that Tony had been investigating the Skrull from every conceivable angle for quite some time before that issue -- and turning to the Illuminati was his last resort. (After all, he didn't know if they could be trusted -- and as it turns out, he was right.) 

Maybe that will help you feel better about the gap, Paul -- the knowledge that Tony's been working on the Skrull corpse for a long time now? 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Dec 04, 2007 10:50 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I think that's the only explanation we can make in this situation. Perhaps more accurately, Stark put SHIELD's lab staff on it while he was busy dealing with Attilan, Atlantis, the Order, challenges in his own book, etc., etc. And maybe he wasn't convinced that the one Skrull was indicative of a full-fledged invasion until just before NA:I2 5. Now exactly what made him jump to that (apparently accurate) conclusion is anyone's guess that probably no one at Marvel will explain. 

Does it seem like we've been making rationalizations for screwy continuity more often lately? 

It appears that the prudent thing is to put such potentially high-impact story arcs as One More Day, Messiah CompleX, and Secret Invasion latest in MU chronology as they may upset the status quo that other books are depicting. At least for now... 

Trying to finalize a revised calendar is challenging given so many variables out there now. But then, what else is new? 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 07, 2007 11:58 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I think we can use recent issues of Ms. Marvel to support a delay in Tony's reaction to the Skrull corpse. While he looks into things he tightens up security, and as he comes closer to his conclusions he becomes more paranoid, tightening security even further. That would put Ms. Marvel 21 after the Skrull hand off, and before Illuminati 5. 

Also, the current Penance mini has to be set after the Namor mini. Penance is going after Nitro, and he's going to Latveria to do it. Nitro was being held in Atlantis until the end of the Sub-Mariner mini, and by issue 6 Namor(and most likely by extension, Nitro) are in Latveria. 

Oh yeah. According to Penance 3, it's been the 'better part of a year', or 'almost 150 days', since Penance has been with the Thunderbolts. Fun!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 08, 2007 5:05 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yup. I put MSM2 18-22 between the Elektra Skrull hand-off (an early security tightening) and World War Hulk. SUBM3 1-6 occur after WWH. Both P:R and NA:I2 5 occur after SUBM3 6. And I think that "almost 150 days" reference can work!Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 08, 2007 9:47 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Brevoort's put some notes he gave to Bendis about Secret Invasion #1 up on his blog. Some of it's redacted, and some don't affect the chronology, but there's a couple of points worthy of note: 

1) The Skrull-Elektra's post-mortem doesn't take place until SI1. 
2) Bendis considered Illumanti #3 Noh-Varr's "last" appearance, and Brevoort says, no, it's Civil War: Young Avengers/Runaways.

			*	*	*

Dec 09, 2007 12:56 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

See? They pay attention to this stuff... sometimes.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 09, 2007 2:35 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I especially like Brevoort's instruction to Bendis to transfer a line of dialog from Iron Fist to Echo. Should've done that kind of dialog transfer in NA:I2 5. And the dead horse is beaten some more... 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 20, 2007 9:12 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Okay, ORDER2 6 provides us with more placement clues. Namor appears here (in San Francisco for some odd reason) and mentiones that Atlantis is destroyed and his people are refugees. So it's clearly after SUBM3 6. I won't give away the dialog, but Namor appears to be covering for the fact that his people are actually infiltrating the surface world. He demands to be taken to the Order's "leader." Presumably next issue, we'll see Namor and Stark together. 

My first inclination is to place ORDER2 6-7 before NA:I2 5. Although I wonder if the dialog between Namor and Stark in NA:I2 5 (the "you could've called me" dialog) will make sense if they've already met in ORDER2 7 following SUBM3 6.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 26, 2007 4:43 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

I think this is the thread where we're discussing the time it takes Tony to reveal the Skrull to the other Illuminati members... 

Last week's "Mighty Avengers #6" ends with Jessica Drew dropping off the body of the Skrull at Tony Stark's place. He's still recovering from his injuries, (from being possessed by Ultron). 

Also in this issue, there are references once again to the team having just been put together, (I don't have the issue in front of me, but they're talking like Carol and Iron Man put the team together just that morning). 

As you can see, this shatters the space/time continuum and generally makes my head hurt.

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Jan 24, 2008 3:08 am 
By JD

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Most likely, this is also post-Messiah CompleX...
<<<

Actually, no. NA:I2 5 pretty much HAS to happen before Messiah Complex.

Spoilers for X-MEN #207 : 
Xavier ends Messiah Complex in a coma, and solicitations for X-Men: Legacy indicate that he'll spend quite some time in that state (though I'm sure he'll get better).

(Wait, the spoiler tags don't work anymore ? Highlight my last sentence to see it...)

			*	*	*

Jan 24, 2008 9:33 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Spoiler tags are coming.


watching: tru calling

			*	*	*

Jan 27, 2008 5:38 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

JD wrote:
>>>
Actually, no. NA:I2 5 pretty much HAS to happen before Messiah Complex.
<<<

Quite true. So ignore the current Calendar note to the contrary. And since Namor appears to be able to come and go as he pleases in NA:I2 5, it must occur before ORDER2 6-7, and these facts end up forcing NA:I2 5 to move to an earlier date.

So after WWH, Namor appears in:
SUBM3 1-6
NA:I2 5
ORDER2 6-7
in that order.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Subject: WAYART

Jan 28, 2008 3:59 pm 
By scottandrewhutchins

I assume this is a hoax.

			*	*	*

Jan 28, 2008 4:35 pm 
By jephyork
Director

For that matter, what about SALB?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Subject: M/CP 106-140

Jan 28, 2008 6:58 pm 
By Arthur
Director

Marvel Comics Presents 106 - 140:

** New listing
* Adjustment


ANT-MAN II/SCOTT HARRIS LANG 
M/CP 131/2
*M/CP 137/4 should read M/CP 137/2
FFU 5


CONSTRICTOR/FRANK PAYNE/"FRANK SCHLICTING"
**M/CP 120/2 (7:2)-FB being disciplined by father
**M/CP 74/3 (1-3:2)-FB (not in MCP yet; in previous post viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3542)
**M/CP 74 /3(5:4-5:8)-FB (not in MCP yet; in previous post viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3542)
NF3 36-FB
{H2 212}


DAGGER/TANDY BOWEN
M/CP 120/3
M/CP 121/3
*M/CP 121/4 should be M/CP 122/3
NW 32


GOLIATH III/ERIK JOSTEN 
WM2 25
*M/CP 137/4 should read M/CP 137/2
M/DF2 1-BTS


GRIMBAT 
M/CP 119/3
M/CP 120/3
*M/CP 121/2 should be M/CP 121/3
*M/CP 122/2 should be M/CP 122/3


LANG, CASSANDRA "CASSIE" 
M/CP 81/3
*M/CP 137/4-FB should read M/CP 137/2-FB
*M/CP 137/4 should read M/CP 137/2
FF 393-BTS


MELNOA 
*M/CP 121/2 should be M/CP 121/3
*M/CP 122/2 should be M/CP 122/3


TYPHOID MARY/MARY MEZINIS/"MARY WALKER"/"LYLA"/"BLOODY MARY"/"INNOCENT MARY"
M/CP 116
*M/CP 123/2 should read M/CP 123/3
*M/CP 124/2 should read M/CP 124/3
*M/CP 125/2 should read M/CP 125/3
*M/CP 126/2 should read M/CP 126/3
*M/CP 127/2 should read M/CP 127/3
*M/CP 128/2 should read M/CP 128/3
*M/CP 129/2 should read M/CP 129/3
*M/CP 130/2 should read M/CP 130/3
M/CP 150


WONDER MAN/SIMON WILLIAMS 
IW 6
*M/CP 118/4 should be M/CP 119/4
WM2 16

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Subject: Flashbacks in ORDER2 7

Jan 27, 2008 6:13 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Does anyone know if the flashbacks in ORDER2 7 show new material?

1:5
Leonard McKenzie takes Fen's hand.

1:10
Leonard McKenzie fires a gun at someone in a group of Atlanteans.
(Sorry, not familiar with this event.)

2:5
Young Namor stands before the throne of Thakorr.

6/7:1
Namor fights the original Human Torch in the sky above what I assume is Manhattan.

10/11:1
Cap, Namor, and the Torch battle Nazi troops at the vanguard of an attack by U.S. troops.

16-17:1
Namor holds Sue as Reed attacks him, while Doom blasts Ben and Johnny shoots fire at an army of Doombots.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jan 27, 2008 6:34 pm 
By Somebody
Director

What's Namor wearing in the last one - just swimming trunks, or the black leather costume?

			*	*	*

Jan 27, 2008 9:41 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Does anyone know if the flashbacks in ORDER2 7 show new material?
<<<

Yes they do!

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE
...
N2 12
*ORDER2 7 (2:5)-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 41/2
...
ALL WINNERS COMICS 2/5
HUMAN TORCH 5B (1-55:3) 
MARVELS (38-39) 
*ORDER2 7 (6.7:1)-FB
HUMAN TORCH 5B (55:4-60)
SUB-MARINER COMICS 4 

M/U 3
*ORDER2 7 (10/11:1)-FB
CA '01-FB


HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND

ALL WINNERS COMICS 1
HUMAN TORCH 5B (1-55:3) 
MARVELS 1 (38-39) 
*ORDER2 7 (6/7:1)-FB
HUMAN TORCH 5B (55:4-60)
ALL WINNERS COMICS 2

M/U 3
*ORDER2 7 (10/11:1)-FB
AWC 65/2-FB 
CA '01-FB


CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS

M/U 3
CA 109 (1-6:2)-FB (06/06/44)
*ORDER2 7-FB
TOS 69/2 (1-9)


(6/7:1)-FB is during HUMAN TORCH 5B,(The Human Torch battles the Sub-Mariner as the world faces destruction!) and expands on a seen added to that comic by MARVELS 1, during the time Namor had Manhattan island flooded. 

(10/11:1)-FB shows the Invaders on a beach, ships in the water behind them with Allied troops pouring out of them, and Namor is using an anti-tank barricade as a weapon. I am certain that this is intended to be D-Day, the sixth of June. 

PRINCESS FEN [ATLANTEAN] 
...
FF@ 1 (18:4-18:5)-FB 
CA: SL2 3 (11:1)-FB 
*ORDER2 7 (1:5)-FB)
MOTION PICTURES FUNNIES WEEKLY (8:3)-FB
SAGASM 1 (16:5) 
FF@1 (18:6)-FB 
SAGASM 1 (16:6-20) 
FF: SE (4:1-4:2) 
*ORDER2 7 (1:10)-FB
SAGASM 1 (21:1) 
FF: SE (4:3) 


EMPEROR THAKORR [ATLANTEAN]
...
N2 12
*ORDER2 7-FB 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 42/2
...


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
16-17:1
Namor holds Sue as Reed attacks him, while Doom blasts Ben and Johnny shoots fire at an army of Doombots.
<<<

Somebody wrote:
>>>
What's Namor wearing in the last one - just swimming trunks, or the black leather costume?
<<<

He's wearing his green trunks, and I'll add that they're underwater in the scene.(most likely in Atalantis, they're not IN water, but there's fish swimming around outside the window) 

As for placement on this one, though, I'm not too sure.

Also, I just realized that I never got around to suggesting an updated chronology for Leonard McKenzie. I'll see if I can pull something together before I suggest a placement for him in these FlashBacks.(even though they'll be very close to what Fen's looks like, excluding her Atlantis appearances)

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 27, 2008 11:10 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Fury, somehow I knew that you'd have the answer, especially the WWII-era scenes. Thanks.

If anyone has a placement for that FF vs. Namor and Doom scene, let us know.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jan 30, 2008 1:51 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Also, I just realized that I never got around to suggesting an updated chronology for Leonard McKenzie.
<<<

Dhall beat me to it! By like, five months. So just these FlashBacks, then:

MCKENZIE, LEONARD 
...
FF@ 1 (18:4-18:5)-FB 
CA: SL2 3 (11:1)-FB 
*ORDER2 7 (1:5)-FB
...
FF: SE (4:1-4:2) 
*ORDER2 7 (1:10)-FB
SAGASM 1 (21:1) 
...

Any ideas on the FF vs Doom vs Namor FB?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Subject: Henry Peter Gyrich is Petey the Little Pest

Jan 31, 2008 7:48 pm 
By ShadZ

I doubt this is relevant now, but it will become relevant whenever the various "funny kids" comics that Atlas put out in the 1950s are added to the MCP:

According to writer Steven Grant, GYRICH, HENRY PETER was intended to be Peter the Little Pest (a Dennis the Menace rip-off drawn by Joe Manleey) all grown up.

More Info:

The original claim: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=15726
Blog post showing resemblance between the two Peters: http://againwiththecomics.blogspot.com/2008/01/secret-past-of-henry-peter-gyrich.html
some info on Peters 1969 series (all reprints from the 50s): http://www.oddballcomics.com/article.php?story=archive2003-08-18

			*	*	*

Jan 31, 2008 8:15 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Sadly, Peter the Little Pest's last name is Doogle... 

Woulda been funny to link the two, though.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jan 31, 2008 9:03 pm 
By ShadZ

Oh, pooh! Well, it would have been fun...ShadZ

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Subject: December call for analyses

Dec 01, 2007 2:55 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Well, I was hoping I'd have an updated calendar posted by now, but I'm still waiting for One More Day to end, and having a clue about how Aftersmash will fit in should help a little, too. I'm finishing a major reorganization of the post-CW portion and it loos like most things are working. That Wolverine/Sabretooth arc still poses a problem. 

Anyway, it's not too late to contribute some analyses in time for the new calendar update. Here's the new call list. Please let me know if there are any mistakes in assignments, and if you'd like to sign up, please do! 

Thanks to all our analysts! 


Completed stories (as of 11/30/07) 
Annihilation: Conquest  Quasar #1-4 (Somebody) 
Annihilation: Conquest  Wraith #1-4 (Somebody) 
Books of Doom #1-6 (Eric) 
Daredevil Annual v2 #1 (Kevin) 
Daredevil: Battlin Jack Murdock #1-4 
Daughters of the Dragon #1-6 (JD) 
Mystic Arcana: Black Knight (Kevin) 
Mystic Arcana: Scarlet Witch (Kevin) 
Spider-Man/Red Sonja #1-5 
Wisdom #1-6 (Paul O.) 
X-23: Target X #1-6 (Paul O.) 

Future stuff 
Annihilation: Conquest #1-6 (JLH) 
Black Panther Annual #1 [if any present-day content exists] 
ClanDestine v2 #1-5 (Don) 
Daredevil v2 #101-105 
Dead of Night Featuring Man-Thing #1-4 
Foolkiller v2 #1-5 
Ghost Rider v5 #14-19 (JLH) 
Ghost Rider v5 #20-? (JLH) 
House of M: Avengers #1-5 
Howard the Duck v? #1-4 (JLH) 
Hulk vs. Fin Fang Foom (JLH) 
Immortal Iron Fist #10-14 (Don) 
Immortal Iron Fist: Orson Randall and the Green Mist of Death (Don) 
Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin #1-6 (Col_Fury) 
Moon Knight v5 #14-19 
Nova v4 #8-9 (Somebody) 
Nova v4 #10 (Somebody) 
Omega the Unknown v2 #1-10 
Punisher v7 #51-54 (Col_Fury) 
Punisher: Force of Nature 
Punisher War Journal v2 #16 
Runaways v2 #25-30 (JD) 
Silver Surfer: In Thy Name #1-4 
Wolverine v3 #57-61 (Col_Fury) 
Wolverine: Origins #21-25 (Col_Fury)

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:14 am, edited 11 times in total. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 01, 2007 3:44 pm 
By DonCampbell

You can put me down for the Orson Randall and the Green Mist of Death one-shot and the ClanDestine v2 LS. 

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Dec 02, 2007 5:00 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Don. I've updated the list to reflect your offer as well as Somebody's completion of the Star-Lord analysis. Thanks to you too, Somebody!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 06, 2007 9:44 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Spider-Man/Red Sonja has another issue coming out next week, making it a five issue mini. Since it's shipping in a handful of days, I think you're safe enough listing it as completed with 1-5.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 15, 2007 9:59 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hi, folks. JLH finds that he is a bit too busy right now to provide analyses anytime soon. Would anyone out there be willing to step in and cover any of the arcs noted with his initials? It would be good to get as many of the completed arcs included in the next calendar update as we can. Thanks!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 15, 2007 2:45 pm 
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Daredevil: Battlin Jack Murdock #1-4
<<<

It all happens before and around DD #1 : there's no present day material.

			*	*	*

Dec 15, 2007 5:26 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Likewise, Ghost Rider: Trail of Tears #1-6 is set entirely in the Old West. It will have no impact on the present day Calender. 

Zombie: Simon Garth #1-4

As it's a direct sequel to the last "Zombie" mini-series, it's almost certainly out of continuity as well.

Annihilation: Conquest  Quasar #1-4 (JLH)
Annihilation: Conquest  Wraith #1-4 (JLH) 
Mystic Arcana: Black Knight (JLH)
Mystic Arcana: Scarlet Witch (JLH) 

I have these and can maybe do them...though with my time commitments, it might be better to hand over the Annihilation stuff to Somebody, (if he's up for it...I noticed that he's handled the other "Conquest" stuff). I'm just saying that he might get them finished before I could.

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Dec 16, 2007 10:55 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Although there's no impact on the current calendar, I'm interested in all post-FF 1 chronology, so I'll keep DD:BJM in, but I'll delete GR:TOT from the call, although it might be nice to have for the MCP generally. I'll remove Zombie as non-canonical. Kevin, I'll sign you up for the two Mystic Arcana issues. Thanks.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 16, 2007 11:57 am 
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Although there's no impact on the current calendar, I'm interested in all post-FF 1 chronology, so I'll keep DD:BJM in
<<<

Then you can sign me up. I've been tracking issues set around DD's origin anyway.

			*	*	*

Dec 16, 2007 1:37 pm 
By Somebody
Director

If you want then, I'll take a shot at the other two Conquest lead-in minis, but I'll probably be rather briefer with the summaries than Nova & Star-Lord since I wasn't happy with them.

			*	*	*

Dec 16, 2007 4:48 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
If you want then, I'll take a shot at the other two Conquest lead-in minis
<<<

Thank you, Somebody!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 16, 2007 9:09 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I get snowed out of town for a night and look what I miss! 

I may be able to grab Spider-Man Family 5 & 6, if time permits, possibly in the middle of the week... we'll see what happens. 

What about X-23 & Wisdom? Does Paul O. need somone to grab those?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 16, 2007 10:47 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote: 
>>>
I may be able to grab Spider-Man Family 5 & 6, if time permits, possibly in the middle of the week... 
<<<

Thanks, Fury. I've actually gotten caught up with all previous analyses and with a major reorganization of Year 24. The new calendar certainly will reflect lots of adds, edits, and moves, and not just in the most recent parts. I look forward to adding any new analyses and new books for the next couple of weeks, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that new info doesn't mess everything up (again).

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 16, 2007 11:52 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

What sort of time frame are you looking at for getting the new calender done? I think I'll have more time over the Holiday break...

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Dec 16, 2007 11:59 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Same here, if we're talking after December 29...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 17, 2007 7:46 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I'm hoping to use the holiday break to get things finalized and reformatted to send to Russ, barring any major upheavals caused by new comics or new analyses. My goal is to incorporate this week's and next week's new books into the revised calendar. How about a deadline of Dec. 31 to get analyses in?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Dec 18, 2007 3:06 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Well, the 31st is after the 29th...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 12:30 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

Things have been busier than I thought, but I may have time to crank those few analysis that I owe you sometime tomorrow. Care to give me a couple more days or so? If not, I understand, but I haven't forgotten...I've just been ridiculously busy.

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 10:13 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Sure, Kevin. I'm nearly ready on my end, and was planning to spend time today and tomorrow finishing it up. I plan to add a few of this Friday's new books to the document, then work on all the reformatting I need to do to send text to Russ. The earlier this week the better, so I can devote the weekend to the reformatting (making any necesary adjustments that new clues in your books may offer by Friday). Hopefully, such info won't cause yet another "back to the drawing board" moment (of which there have been plenty in the last eight months). 

I'll post an updated call in a moment, with a last appeal for the new calendar update. 

Thanks!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 30

Subject: Chronology Review for Daredevil Vol. 2 Annual #1

Jan 01, 2008 1:54 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Daredevil Annual #1 (of Vol. 2)
Written by Ed Brubaker and Ande Parks
Pencils by Leandro Fernandez
Inks by Scott Koblish 

Appearances: 

DAREDEVIL/MATT MURDOCK 
NORTH, DAKOTA 
NELSON, FRANKLIN P. "FOGGY" 
BLACK TARANTULA II/CARLOS LAMUERTO 

New character's we'll never see again, (thus, not deserving of MCP entries in my opinion): 

LUIS RODRIGUEZ AKA "LITTLE LOCO" 
DWIGHT PETERSON, (Lamuerto's parole officer) 

Synopsis: 

Pgs. 1-12: Matt Murdock has the flu, but the bad guys never stop, so Daredevil is out fighting Yakuza, while at the same time, Carlos Lamuerto, (Black Tarantula II) is being released from prison on parole. Lamuerto was last seen in DD2 86, when he was beaten by Bullseye during the Prison Riot. Since then, he's been on good behaviour, and because of prison overcrowding has been set free. 

Matt is unable to capture all of the Yakuza because of his flu, and momentarily collapses in a nearby Catholic church to recover from his injuries. While there, he thinks he overhears someone confessing to a murder, but looses track of whoever he overheard. 

Lamuerto meanwhile visits his parole officer, who is corrupt and wants a kickback from Lamuerto if he returns to crime. 

A short time later, Murdock returns to his office to collapse, only to be greeted by Lamuerto, who asks for a job. (Lamuerto notes that he was released from prison "this very morning"). 

Matt hires him to work with Detective Dakota North, to investigate this killing he overheard at the church. 

Pgs 13-26: The Next Day. Carlos wakes up and starts to head to Matt's office for work. Along the way, he runs into Luis Rodriguez, aka "Little Loco" the new head of the hispanic crime gang in NYC. Luis used to be a soldier in Lamuerto's crime gang years ago, but Luis now taunts Lamuerto that he owns these streets now. 

Lamuerto ignores them and heads to Murdock's office. Dakota North has him use the computer to search for suspicious obituaries, but Lamuerto doesn't like this style of research, so he heads out onto the streets to bust some heads and ask some questions. Murdock goes and confronts Lamuerto and tells him to get back to the office. Murdock is suddenly confronted by some punks, and Lamuerto busts them up. Murdock couldn't handle the punks alone because of his flu, and Murdock realizes he could use Lamuerto's strong arm help after all. 

Daredevil and the Black Tarantula go and attack the Yakuza, (the ones who escaped Daredevil yesterday). One of the Yakuza escapes, but the two have busted up the Yakuza meeting. Lamuerto wants to take the Yakuza's money, but Daredevil says to leave it for the police. Lamuerto questions how Daredevil does things, but solemly goes back to his place. 

Pgs. 27-35: The next day. Daredevil and Dakota go over any suspicious deaths, and find one that looks like an old lady commiting suicide. As Daredevil, Murdock goes that evening and investigates where the lady died. Daredevil discovers the landlord of a condo wanted the old lady to move out, so that he could renovate this block and earn money, but the old lady wouldn't move out, so he had her killed. 

This landlord now feels guilty and confesses to Daredevil his crime. The landlord said he hired someone named "Little Loco" to do it for him. Daredevil calls Lamuerto and asks if he knows of a thug named "Little Loco". 

Feeling guilty for molding the young Rodriguez into a killer, Lamuerto rushes off to Little Loco's place and kills all of Loco's gang and Loco himself. Daredevil arrives a short time later, and starts to arrest Lamuerto, but Lamuerto knocks out cold the still sick Daredevil. 

Pgs. 36-38: The Next Day: Murdock is finally over his flu. He arrives at work to find a letter from Lamuerto. Lamuerto writes that he has much to repent for, and that he's got to fight crime his own way, (a killer like the Punisher). He also warns Murdock that his parole officer is corrupt, and needs to be investigated. Lamuerto, meanwhile, leaves the money he stole from Little Loco's place last night at the local Catholic Church. The End. 


References: 

Pg. 7: The parole officer says to Lamuerto, "Guess you don't wanna be a Thunderbolt, or you wouldn't be here." Last I checked, enrollment in the Thunderbolts wasn't optional, those villians were conscripted into service. But at any rate, this is after the new Thunderbolts have been established, (but this is all post-Civil War, so no problems here, I believe). 

Pgs 27-35: Weather reference: As Daredevil leaves behind the man who confessed to killing the old lady, it begins to rain outside. So it's raining outside on this night. 

Flashbacks: 

Pg. 14p2-14p5:FB- Lamuerto, (back in the days when he was an up and coming crime lord) offers money to a young kid Luis Rodriguez. Lamuerto is trying to see if he can corrupt an innocent youth. 

Pg. 14p6:FB- This is perhaps a couple years later. Lamuerto is shown walking down the street with his gang, (and Luis is now part of that gang, and is now known as "Little Loco"). 

Overall thoughts on placement: We're still knee deep in the "Mr. Fear" storyline that's been going on since Daredevil #95 onwards, (DD2 100-106 is just a continuation of this storyline). Milla is not mentioned in this Annual at all, while in the main book she's either in jail, or in a drug induced psychosis, (and perhaps about to be written out of the book). 

I started to think this annual would have to go after the "Mr. Fear" storyline, but the solicit for next March's Daredevil #106 paints a picture of a Daredevil who's distraught and will be for some time. 

It's perhaps better to place this annual in the cracks of DD2 #93 or #94. Suggested placement for now: place it right before the most recent flashback of DD2 94. I'll copy my analysis from DD2 94: 

Pg. 20p4-21p3:FB-This flashback is to a recent morning before the present day events of this issue. Milla wakes up to find Matt up already, and asking her to go to breakfast with him. Millas happy hes come back from his Daredevil patrol okay. 

I suppose we'll know more once the current story arc concludes, but this may be the best bet for now. 

That's it for now. I'll have those "Mystic Arcana" reviews coming out here sometime soon.

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Thread 31

Subject: Nextwave: Agents of H.A.T.E. 1-6!

Aug 18, 2007 6:46 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Nextwave: Agents of H.A.T.E. #1 
Published: March, 2006 

Appearances: 
Elsa Bloodstone, the Captain, Monica Rambeau(Photon), Aaron Stack(X-51, Machine Man), Tabitha Tabby Smith(Boomer), Gen. Dirk Anger, FIN FANG FOOM. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg19pn4(of 7) 
Elsa Bloodstone & the Captain chat at a coffee house while the Beyond Corporation excavates nearby. Meanwhile, Dirk Anger, Director of H.A.T.E. welcomes some new recruits aboard the Aeromarine when hes notified that the stolen Shockwave Rider has been located. He calls Monica & Aaron who explains to him(again) that the Beyond Corporation for whom H.A.T.E. is funded by is actually the terrorist cell S.I.L.E.N.T., and they refuse to support that. Then they hang up on Anger. Meanwhile at the excavation site, FIN FANG FOOM awakes! The Shockwave Rider approaches the excavation site while Bloodstone & the Captain fight robotic Beyond Human Resources personnel. 
Pg19pn5-pg20pn2(of 6)-FB 
A young Monica imagines she zapped an annoying dog. 
Pg20pn3-pg22 
Nextwave attacks FIN FANG FOOM! 

References: 
Apparently, Monicas mom is dead. Also, I say imagined in Monicas Flashback because she didnt have powers when she was that young. 

Nextwave recently quit working for H.A.T.E., just after the Beyond Corporation started funding them. 

H.A.T.E. stands for Highest Anti-Terrorist Effort. 

Nextwave: Agents of H.A.T.E. #2 
Published: April, 2006 

Appearances: 
Elsa Bloodstone, the Captain, Monica Rambeau(Photon), Aaron Stack(X-51, Machine Man), Tabitha Tabby Smith(Boomer), Gen. Dirk Anger, FIN FANG FOOM, Father Blood Drench Robo Crush. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: same day as last issue 
FIN FANG FOOM fights back! Meanwhile, Gen. Anger eats lunch. Meanwhile, Nextwave regroups and comes up with a plan. Meanwhile, Father Blood Drench Robo Crush has tea with a sweet old lady. Meanwhile, X-51 defeats FIN FANG FOOM, and they all hop in the Shockwave Rider and high-tail it outta there. 

References: 
Father Blood Drench Robo Crush is a relative of X-51s, part of the X-series. 

This was Nextwaves first mission after leaving H.A.T.E., in a plan to destroy the Beyond Corporations various plots. 

Nextwave: Agents of H.A.T.E. #3 
Published: May, 2006 

Appearances: 
Elsa Bloodstone, the Captain, Monica Rambeau(Photon), Aaron Stack(X-51, Machine Man), Tabitha Tabby Smith(Boomer), Gen. Dirk Anger. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7: Monday 
Officer Mangel makes his rounds, beats up some drug dealers, and checks in on his whore house. Later, he finds a cat-like creature that opens up and burrows into his chest. 
Pg8-pg22: Wednesday 
H.A.T.E. has located Nextwave in the area that theyve laid their seed(the cat-like creature) and prepare to intercept them. Meanwhile, Tabby comes across Officer Mangel eating a car and he attacks her. After a quick fight she calls Nextwave, then shes attacked by the beyond Corporations Human Resources personnel. After another quick fight, Officer Mangel has started to turn robotic 

References: 
Tabby has had time to hit the Hyperlounge nightclub on Sunset between last issue and this. 

Nextwave: Agents of H.A.T.E. #4 
Published: June, 2006 

Appearances: 
Elsa Bloodstone, the Captain, Monica Rambeau(Photon), Aaron Stack(X-51, Machine Man), Tabitha Tabby Smith(Boomer). 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4pn4(of 5): same day as end of last issue 
Nextwave fights the robotic Officer Mangel & the Beyond Corporations Human Resource personnel. 
Pg4pn5-pg7pn2(of 4)-FB 
The Captain leaves a bar in Brooklyn when hes approached by two aliens, Spa-Fon & Squa-Tront, who give him superpowers. He beats the crap out of them and vomits on their unconscious bodies. 
Pg7pn3-pg: same day as pg4pn4 
Officer Mangel has grown to ten stories high and places Nextwave under arrest. After a quick fight hes defeated by Tabby and the Ultra Samurai seed inside him is destroyed. As Nextwave leaves, Officer Mangel is killed by his prostitutes. 

References: 
The Captains origin was long enough ago for him to have met Captain America once. 

Nextwave: Agents of H.A.T.E. #5 
Published: July, 2006 

Appearances: 
Elsa Bloodstone, the Captain, Monica Rambeau(Photon), Aaron Stack(X-51, Machine Man), Tabitha Tabby Smith(Boomer), Gen. Dirk Anger, Captain America-FB, Iron Man-FB, Thor-FB, Cable-FB. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8pn2(of 4) 
H.A.T.E. has determined that Nextwave is heading to one of the Beyond Corporations War Gardens, so Gen. Anger orders pursuit to Wyoming. Later, Nextwave discovers that the War Gardens are where the Beyond Corporations Human Resources personnel are grown. In a field. Out of broccoli. The Human Resources department are all broccoli robots. So they burn the field. 
Pg8pn3-pg9pn4(of 5)-FB 
Having spent 360 days with the Celestials, its been decided that Machine Man is total $#!% and is being dumped back on Earth. 
Pg9pn5-pg16pn2 
The Aeromarine arrives and attacks Nextwave! 
Pg16pn3(of 4)-FB 
Monica, with the Avengers,(Cap, Iron Man, Thor) watch as the Gamma-Activated Bull Men From Beyond the Nineteenth Perimeter approach. 
Pg16pn4-pg18pn1 
Nextwave fights back! 
Pg18pn2-pg18pn3-FB 
The Captains mother, drunk, has hanged his Special Bear teddy bear from the ceiling, claiming that its dead. The Captain is probably eight or nine years old. 
Pg18pn3(of 6)-pg22pn2 
Nextwave fights some more! 
Pg22pn3-FB 
Cable asks for Tabithas assistance. 
Pg22pn4(of 5)-pg23 
Monica is shot in the shoulder. 

References: 
Its not made clear how long its been since last issue, but since Nextwave is following the Beyond Corporations Marketing plan, and H.A.T.E. knows this, probably not very long. 

X-51 has spent 360 days in spce, but its not made clear how long ago he got back. 

In the X-Force FlashBack, it looks like a Greg Capullo-era outfit for Cable. Tabitha is not seen on panel, but Cable is talking to her, and its her Flashback, giving her an OP. 

Monicas Flashback; shes in her white outfit with the wings in her armpits, afro hairstyle. Classic looking armor for Iron man. 

Nextwave: Agents of H.A.T.E. #6 
Published: July, 2006 

Appearances: 
Elsa Bloodstone, the Captain, Monica Rambeau(Photon), Aaron Stack(X-51, Machine Man), Tabitha Tabby Smith(Boomer), Gen. Dirk Anger. 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: same day as last issue 
After some fighting, Aaron infiltrates the Aeromarine and convinces Gen. Anger to stand down. The Aeromarine leaves and Nextwave begins repairing the Shockwave Rider. 

References: 
Same day as last issue, all in one day. 

As far as I can tell, this series takes place moe or less in the current day Marvel Universe when it was published. All twelve issues probably take place before Civil War, where Monica makes an appearance in her Nextwave uniform at the Storm/Black Panther wedding. Recently, X-51 has appeared in Ms. Marvel also in his Nextwave attire. 

Up next: Nextwave: Agents of H.A.T.E. 7-12!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Aug 20, 2007 1:14 am 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
Recently, X-51 has appeared in Ms. Marvel also in his Nextwave attire.
<<<

Yep -- and it was *hilarious*.  

According to the Handbooks, the Fin Fang Foom seen here may or may not have been a clone of the original -- and the Nextwave squad may or may not have had their memories messed with by the Beyond Corp. (Which would explain those funny-but-erroneous flashbacks like Cap telling Monica to go make her some lunch, and Cable asking Tabby for help holding up his enormous gun...) 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Aug 20, 2007 7:30 am 
By Somebody
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
According to the Handbooks, the Fin Fang Foom seen here may or may not have been a clone of the original
<<<

"puts in vote for "may" and listing as FIN FANG FOOM III* 

(FIN FANG FOOM II should come with a "See Midgard Serpent" note)

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 7:30 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Just a thought, since the FFF profile in Hulk vs. FFF didn't mention anything recent except Fin Fang Four... 

Did the FFF in this make it out alive? Because, if it did, I'm wondering if it could be used to patch the FB-BTS in Thor v2 #80 (no, not for the MCP itself, just ooc), where Thor says he killed FFF and used his bones for the place they were standing in...

			*	*	*

Thread 32

Subject: Wolverine v3 57-61

Jan 11, 2008 1:41 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine v3 #57 
November, 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Amir, Tony Stark; Director of S.H.I.E.L.D., Maria Hill 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6-FB: Ypres, Belgium; 22 April, 1915 
Logan is fighting German soldiers when poison gas is released. As the other soldiers die, Logan keeps fighting the approaching soldiers in gas masks. 
Pg7-pg22: Iraq; now 
Wolverine fights agents of Scimitar along with Amir, his Atlantean girlfriend. They discover a plot to kill Tony Stark and hop on the X-Jet to get to the Helicarrier. When they arrive theyre attacked by more agents of Scimitar, Amir is killed, and its revealed the Helicarrier was actually a Scimitar ship disguised as a Helicarrier by huge image inducers. The last Scimitar agent shoves a bomb down Wolverines throat and explodes. Three hours later, Stark & Hill arrive with some S.H.I.E.L.D. agents and discover Wolverine. Hes healed, but brain-dead 

References: 
Amir is the Atlantean woman from Wolverines Civil War tie-in issues. Shes working with Logan in Iraq,(who knows what theyre doing) but theres no mention of the Atlantean situation. I suppose this could go either before or after the recent Sub-Mariner mini. 

Wolverines been in Iraq for two weeks as of the start of this issue. 

As revealed later, Scimitar is an off-shoot of the Hand, and theyre a brand new group. The agent that killed Wolverine at the end is actually a piece of his soul, and not a separate character. Dont worry, it will all line up by the end. 

Wolverine v3 #58 
December, 2007 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Dr. Stephen Strange, Tony Stark; Director of S.H.I.E.L.D., Lazaer(Azrael(Angel of Death))-FB 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5: Ypres, Belgium; 22 April, 1915 
After killing some German soldiers, Logan is confronted by Lazaer, the Angel of Death. 
Pg6-pg14: same day as last issue 
Dr. Strange pays Tony Stark a visit aboard the Helicarrier, informs him that Logans brain-dead body is missing his soul, and takes Logan back to his Sanctum. They chat on the astral plane, where Strange explains that Wolverine has a deal with the Angel of Death, in that every time Wolverine should have died, he fights with Lazaer for another chance at life. But this time, something went wrong. 
Pg15-pg19-FB: , Belgium; 22 April, 1915 
Logan defeats the Angel of Death. 
Pg20: now 
Strange & Wolverine chat. 
Pg21-FB: , Belgium; 22 April, 1915 
The Angel of Death makes a deal with Logan. 
Pg22: now 
Strange & Wolverine chat on the astral plane. 

References: 
Green leaves on trees in Greenwich Village. 

Dr. Stranges Sanctum has the Starbucks sign on it. When Strange & Stark chat, Strange denies being on a team with Wolverine, even though Stark knows they are. Theyre at odds with each other, not openly hostile, but more aggressive than anything else. This could be attributed to them being in the Illuminati together, or this could be after World War Hulk. It could also be after Stark has learned of the Skrull threat, but not necessarily. 

There are a bunch of Flashbacks to Wolverines history, but theyre more like reminder FlashBacks instead of proper Flashbacks. No new information. 

Wolverine v3 #59 
January, 2008 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Dr. Stephen Strange, (Azrael(Angel of Death))-FB, Gorgon-FB, Phaedra-FB 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5pn2-FB: Belgium; April, 1915 
With the Angel of Death defeated, Logan wanders around Belgium for a while until he realizes that he should be dead. So he puts a gun to his head. 
Pg5pn3(of 5)-pg16: now 
Strange chats with Wolverine on the astral plane, and Wolverine confronts past versions of himself. 
Pg17-FB 
Repeat of W3 20. No new information. 
Pg18-FB: during Enemy of the State 
Phaedra resurrects Wolverine while Gorgon watches. 
Pg19-pg20: now 
Wolverine thinks about his past. 
Pg21-FB: following pg18-FB 
Wolverine is resurrected, he soul fragment is seen in the background. 
Pg22: now 
Dr. Strange has reunited Wolverines soul with his body hes back! 

References: 
All in one day, same day as last issue. 

The resurrection FlashBacks follow pg12 of W3 20, same night or the following night. 

Wolverine v3 #60 
February, 2008 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Phaedra, Lord Shingen Yashida 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3-FB: Belgium; April, 1915 
As Logan is about to shoot himself, Lazaer stops him and explains their deal, more or less. 
Pg4-pg22: the day after last issue 
Wolverine has travelled to Japan where he flushes out some Hand ninjas. He questions one about where Phaedra is, then goes to look for her. After checking in with a friend he finds Scimitars secret base. He finds Phaedra, but before he can make any headway hes confronted by Lord Shingen Yashida. 

References: 
Lord Yashida remember him? From the original Wolverine limited series? Also, the friend he checks in with is the widow of the guy killed in issue 3 of that mini. 

Wolverine v3 #61 
March, 2008 

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Phaedra, Lazaer, Lord Shingen Yashida 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-FB 
Repeat of pg19 of Wolverine 4.(down to the panel layout!) No new information. 
Pg2-pg22 
Wolverine fights Shingen while he reflects on his past. Shingen cuts out Wolverines eye and Wolverine kills Shingen. He then fights Lazaer and they strike up a deal: since Phaedra has Lazaer under some sort of control, Wolverine kills her for the return of his missing soul portion, and for the ability to die again. His deal with Lazaer is now off, and he couldnt be happier. After Wolverine has fought his way out of the base, Shingen gets up and puts on the Scimitar uniform. 

References: 
All in all, the present day story lasts two days with two weeks before that of Wolverine in Iraq. All of which are pre-Messiah CompleX, because the next arc is a Messiah CompleX epilogue. Also, this arc is almost definitely pre-Secret Invasion, given the status of Stark & the sign on Stranges house. 

Phaedra has(or had) the ability to resurrect the dead, and thats what she did with Lord Shingen. 

No more insanely crazy healing resurrections for Wolverine! 

Some placement suggestions: 

WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT 
... 
O 6 
W: O 15 (7:1)-FB 
M/CP 93-FB 
M/CP 94 
M/CP 95 
M/CP 96 
M/CP 97 
M/CP 98-FB 
W: O 15 (8-10)-FB (1912) 
W: O 12 (10-11)-FB 
W: O 15 (13:1)-FB 
W: O 17 (5-8)-FB 
*W3 57-FB (04/22/1915) 
*W3 58-FB
*W3 59 (1-5:2)-FB
*W3 60-FB 
W2 113-FB 
W2 126 (8)-FB 
 
W3 20 (1-12) 
*W3 59 (18)-FB
*W3 59 (21)-FB 
W3 20 (13-22) 
 

GORGON 
W3 20 (1-12) 
W3 59-FB 
 

YASHIDA, LORD SHINGEN 
W 1 
W 2 
W 4 
W3 60 
W3 61

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 15, 2008 2:41 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

So should Lazaer get a "BTS" listing for every single instance that Logan truly "died", (as shown throughout this story arc)?

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Thread 33

Subject: January call for analyses

Jan 01, 2008 10:23 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Happy New Year, everyone!

Here's the latest call for analyses. If folks submit analyses of completed books in the next couple of days, I'll try to get them into the new edition of the Calendar.

Please correct any errors, and feel free to sign up for unassigned future stuff. As always, thanks to all our analysts!  


Completed stories (as of 12/31/07)
Annihilation: Conquest  Quasar #1-4 (JLH)
Annihilation: Conquest  Wraith #1-4 (JLH)
Books of Doom #1-6 (Eric)
Daredevil Annual v2 #1 (Kevin)
Daredevil: Battlin Jack Murdock #1-4 (JD)
Hulk vs. Fin Fang Foom (JLH)
Mystic Arcana: Black Knight (Kevin)
Mystic Arcana: Scarlet Witch (Kevin)
Nova v4 #8-9 (Somebody)
Wisdom #1-6 (Paul O.) 
X-23: Target X #1-6 (Paul O.)

Future stuff
Annihilation: Conquest #1-6 (JLH)
Black Panther Annual #1 [if any present-day content exists]
ClanDestine v2 #1-5 (Don)
Daredevil v2 #101-105
Daredevil v2 #106
Dead of Night Featuring Man-Thing #1-4
Foolkiller v2 #1-5
Franklin Richards: Spring Break!
Ghost Rider v5 #14-19 (JLH)
Ghost Rider v5 #20-23 (JLH)
House of M: Avengers #1-5
Howard the Duck v? #1-4 (JLH)
Immortal Iron Fist #10-14 (Don)
Immortal Iron Fist: Orson Randall and the Green Mist of Death (Don)
Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin #1-6 (Col_Fury)
Logan #1-3
Moon Knight v5 #14-19
Mythos: Captain America (Col_Fury?)
Nova v4 #10 (Somebody)
Nova v4 #11 (Somebody)
Omega the Unknown v2 #1-10
Punisher v7 #51-54 (Col_Fury)
Punisher v7 #55-? (Col_Fury)
Punisher: Force of Nature
Punisher War Journal v2 #16-17
Runaways v2 #25-30 (JD)
Silver Surfer: In Thy Name #1-4
Wolverine: Origins #21-25 (Col_Fury)

I'm debating whether or not I add Amazing Spider-Man to this call list...

Last edited by Paul Bourcier on Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:04 am, edited 3 times in total. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 10:39 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

>>>
I'm debating whether or not I add Amazing Spider-Man to this call list...
<<<

Well, if you didn't drop Captain America when they killed Steve Rogers... Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Jan 01, 2008 11:07 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

At least CA transpires in what we call reality. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jan 05, 2008 11:27 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Mythos: Captain America (Col_Fury?)
<<<

I'll be buying this, but I suspect that it's not 616, as the other Mythos books are. I think you're safe enough taking it off the list, but I'll post if somehow something can work. 

Not at all related to your Call List, but I picked up the Golden Age Human Torch vol 2 Masterworks today, and I plan on submitting an analysis... eventually. I still plan on analysing All-Winners vol 2, probably in a few weeks when I take a week off of work. 

Also, it's not on your list, but I plan to post analyses for the Twelve. 

And happy New Year, Paul!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 06, 2008 10:38 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Fury. Happy New Year to you too.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jan 11, 2008 9:49 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I just noticed that Wolverine 62-65 isn't on the list. Are you picking that up, Paul?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 12, 2008 2:36 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I plan to because of the tie to Messiah Complex. If for some reason I change my mind, shall I put you down for the arc?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jan 13, 2008 2:51 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Sure. Why not?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 13, 2008 6:12 am 
By JLH

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Hulk vs. Fin Fang Foom (JLH)
<<<

Just to let you know, this story takes place in the past, probably back in the 60s. So it has no modern calendar component to it.

			*	*	*

Jan 13, 2008 11:40 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

That's cool. I include any new comic set after FF 1 in the call.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jan 13, 2008 12:30 pm 
By JD

Er, it looks like you forgot to put me on Battlin' Jack Murdock... 

[edit] And Daughters of the Dragon is now completed.

			*	*	*

Jan 13, 2008 6:49 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

The call is updated. Thanks, JD! 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jan 14, 2008 6:40 am 
By JLH

Well, I'm free again, so if anyone wants to pawn off the books I surrendered that they don't want to do, I'm available.

			*	*	*

Jan 14, 2008 8:36 am 
By Somebody
Director

You can have AC:Wraith & the Phyla mini back if you want them  

[If you do, I can send you what I've got done so far, which is a prelim cast listing for each, page ranges for each scene, most of Phyla #1 & 2 and a note saying I don't see how the "two days later" Wraith epilogue fits on a calendar, since the last scene in Phyla seems to line up with the last scene prior to that in Wraith, and the Phyla/MD/AW ending continues directly into AC1-3, where Wraith & co are also picked up...]

			*	*	*

Jan 16, 2008 2:56 am 
By JLH

IF you don't want them. Sounds like you've put quite a bit of work into them already!

			*	*	*

Jan 16, 2008 12:01 pm 
By Somebody
Director

-- 
Honestly, I thought both were pretty crap, and I've been having trouble getting through them because of it (not helped by the fact that the Wraith writer appeared to have no idea of the basic concepts involved, like the transmode virus). 

I'll PM you what I've done (I probably made it sound like more than it is ), and you can have'em.

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Subject: Daughters of the Dragon #1-6

Jan 13, 2008 5:29 pm 
By JD

DAUGHTERS OF THE DRAGON #1-6 
Writer : Justin Gray & Jimmy Palmiotti 
Penciller : Khari Evans 
Inker : Jimmy Palmiotti 
Published from January to June 2006 


DAUGHTERS OF THE DRAGON #1 
Characters : Misty Knight, Colleen Wing, Rhino, Humbug/Buck Mitty, 8-Ball/Jeffrey Hagees, Freezer Burn/Frank Croft, Whirlwind/David Cannon, Celia Ricadonna, Razorfist 

Synopsis : 
- pages 1-9 (day) : Misty & Colleen, now working as a bail bonding agency (Nightwing Restorations), pursue and apprehend the Rhino (who skipped bail). 
- pages 10-22 (night) : A quartet of Z-list villains (Humbug, 8-Ball, Freezer Burn & Whirlwind) steal some stuff from Ricadonna's flat. Later that night, Ricadonna finds out and is pissed off. Still later this same night (about 3 AM), Misty & Colleen, back at their headquarters, go pursue the 4 bozos (they all skipped bail), starting with Freezer Burn. But when they arrive at his ex-girlfriend's (Heather McDermott), the couple's already been killed by Razorfist... 

Notes : 
- This is pre-Civil War, judging by publication date. 
- The Rhino is perfectly abled... well, until Misty breaks his jaw. 


DAUGHTERS OF THE DRAGON #2 
Characters : Misty Knight, Colleen Wing, Razorfist, Freezer Burn (dead), Ricadonna, Otis Danger Johnson the Second (sic), Orca, Humbug, Whirlwind, 8-Ball, Wrecker-BTS 

Synopsis : 
- pages 1-11 (still night, continuing from last issue) : Colleen defeats Razorfist, but leaves him too injured to talk about who hired him. Meanwhile, Ricadonna brushes off an assassination attempt. 
- pages 12-22 (the following day) : Misty & Colleen welcome their new receptionnist, a geek called Otis, then go off. Just after, Orca barges into the room. Meanwhile, the three remaining bozos are told by their fence that they bit bigger than they can chew by robbing Ricadonna. Later, Colleen & Misty pick up 8-Ball at his grandmother's hospital. As they come back, a RPG is launched at their car, killing 8-Ball. 

Notes : 
- Ricadonna, supposedly a magazine publisher, single-handledly defeats a dozen hitmen barging into her office, all while showing off her T&A. Further issues will establish she is actually an arms dealer (among other things). 
- The hit on Ricadonna was ordered by one Nunzio Perolli. I've never heard of this guys, and it's heavily suggested we'll never hear of him again. 
- He's not visible on panel, but next issue tells us that it's the Wrecker who shot the RPG, hence the BTS. 


DAUGHTERS OF THE DRAGON #3 
Characters : Misty Knight, Colleen Wing, Unknown Z-list villain #1, Hammer & Anvil, Jester, Unknown Z-list villain #2, Doctor Bong, Otis, Orca, Ricadonna, Whirlwind, Traspter, Humbug 

Synopsis : 
- pages 1-13 (later the same day as last issue) : Misty & Colleen rough up some hoods at the "Rascal Tavern" (a villain bar) and learn that the four bozos robbed up Ricadonna ; they visit her but don't learn much. Later that night, the Trapster double-crosses the Whirlwind and accidently kills him. 
- page 14-22 (later that night, after 1am) : Misty & Colleen come back to their office and learn that Orca wants to bail Stilt-Man out. Back at her flat, Misty finds Humbug has sneeked in, and agrees to protect him in exchange of the macguffin (a computer chip). A costumed Ricadonna attacks. 

Notes : 
- In a subplot scene, we learn that Otis is invulnerable and insensible to pain (he temped at AIM). Useful when you're brutalized for hours by Orca (who just gives up at the end). 
- Unknown Z-listers : #1, #2. Anny help in identifying those guys ? 


DAUGHTERS OF THE DRAGON #4 
Characters : Misty Knight, Humbug, Ricadonna, Colleen Wing, Tony Stark, Sandman, Mandrill, Unknown Z-lister #3, Droog, Unknown Z-lister #4, Unknown Z-listers #5 & 6, the Punisher, the Mad Juggler, Iron Fist 

Synopsis : 
- Pages 1-8 (continued from last issue) : Ricadonna slices off Misty's bionic arm (with the macguffin inside), but flees after Humbug calls in a swarm of bees. 
- Pages 9-12 are a flashback to Misty's origin, "five years ago" (the bomb defusing that didn't quite work out...). No idea whether there's any new information there. 
- Pages 13-18 (later, it's still night) : While Misty is operated to get an upgraded arm, Misty & Humbug search for information on Ricadonna's auction of the macguffin. 
- Pages 19-22 (night, at least a few hours later) : After an argument with Colleen, Misty storms off and goes out to Danny Rand. 

Notes : 
- "It's been a while", says Danny. No idea where this falls for him. 
- Unknown Z-listers : #3 (in front of Sandman), #4 (hangs out with Droog), #5 & 6. Have fun ! 


DAUGHTERS OF THE DRAGON #5 
Characters : Iron Fist, Misty Knight, Colleen Wing, the American Samurai, Otis, Orca, Punisher, Mole Man, Ricadonna 

Synopsis : 
- pages 1-10 (the next day) : Colleen & Misty prepare their assault on the auction : Iron Fist as backup, weapons from the Punisher, underground transit from the Mole Man... 
- pages 11-12 (probably on the following day) : Ricadonna explains to her goons what the macguffin actually does : it's a computer chip from the Mad Thinker with a computer virus that would cripple the world's economy. 
- pages 13-22 (the following night, two days after DOTD #4 pages 19-22) : The auction starts, and our heroes infiltrate and crash into it. 

Notes : 
- There's nobody of actual interest in the auction, just hordes of mooks from AIM, the Hand, Hydra, and various gangs. 


DAUGHTERS OF THE DRAGON #6 
Characters : Iron Fist, Misty Knight, Colleen Wing, Otis, Ricadonna, Rhino 

Synopsis : 
- pages 1-17 (continued from last issue, finishes at daytime) : big fight scene, our heroes win and send Ricadonna in jail at the end. 
- pages 18-22 ("two days later", day) : the Rhino escapes again right in front of our heroines, and they start giving chase. 

Notes : 
- Misty, Colleen, supporting characters Humbug, Orca & Otis, and villain Ricadonna all show up next in the followup series HEROES FOR HIRE v2. 
- I don't think Misty & Colleen call themselves or are explicitly called once "the Daughters of the Dragon" in the mini, but it's implied in the final confrontation with Ricadonna that it's what they're known as ("So, seriously, what's with the name ? You're the lovechild of Fin Fang Foom and Pam Grier ?") 


And, that's a wrap. Any help on the unidentified z-listers appreciated. Next : Battlin' Jack Murdock and an overhaul of DD's origin chronology.

			*	*	*

Jan 13, 2008 5:50 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Unknown Z-lister #2 is Porcupine/Alexander Gentry. I... have no idea about the others.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 14, 2008 7:47 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

JD wrote: 
>>>
- pages 1-9 (day) : Misty & Colleen, now working as a bail bonding agency (Nightwing Restorations), pursue and apprehend the Rhino (who skipped bail). 
- pages 10-22 (night) : A quartet of Z-list villains (Humbug, 8-Ball, Freezer Burn & Whirlwind) steal some stuff from Ricadonna's flat. Later that night, Ricadonna finds out and is pissed off. Still later this same night (about 3 AM), Misty & Colleen, back at their headquarters, go pursue the 4 bozos (they all skipped bail), starting with Freezer Burn. But when they arrive at his ex-girlfriend's (Heather McDermott), the couple's already been killed by Razorfist... 
<<<

JD, do you figure midnight occurs between pages 9 and 10 or at some later point? 

Another placement point -- it seems that Danny Rand appears here before he assumes the mantle of Daredevil.Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jan 14, 2008 9:45 am 
By SeanCurtin

UZL #2 is a new guy in the Porcupine's costume. UZL #4 might be the Gremlin. UZL #5 & 6 are the Walrus and Garko the Man-Frog.

			*	*	*

Jan 14, 2008 11:14 am 
By dimadick

"Unknown Z-listers : #1, #2. Anny help in identifying those guys" 

I have no idea who #1 is supposed to be. #2 on the other hand is wearing the uniform of the Porcupine. 

The original Porcupine was Alexander Gentry. He died back in "Captain America" vol. 1 #315 (March, 1986). There is a new Porcupine who made appearances in Thunderbolts #104 (September, 2006) and #107-108 (November - December, 2006). 

I would assume this is the new Porcupine making his first appearance.

			*	*	*

Jan 14, 2008 11:23 am 
By dimadick

"UZL #5 & 6 are the Walrus and Garko the Man-Frog." 

While Walrus is very recognisable the green guy by his side is a bit more ambiguous. I think he has a fin on his head. Garko had no fins. To me the guy looks more like Mister Fish, a Luke Cage foe who looks life a fish. See a cover appearance for him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Power029a.jpg

			*	*	*

Jan 14, 2008 11:30 am 
By dimadick

"#4 (hangs out with Droog)" 

The "All-New OHotMU A-Z Update Bibliography" has identified him as Megacephalo. See: http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:B ... Z_Update_1 

Another new character?

			*	*	*

Jan 14, 2008 11:54 am 
By Jeremy Johnston

I thought Unknown Z-Lister #1 was Karkas, the Deviant that hangs out with the Eternals.

			*	*	*

Jan 14, 2008 2:32 pm 
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
JD, do you figure midnight occurs between pages 9 and 10 or at some later point?
<<<

Let's see...
Pages 10-13 are the robbery, 14-15 Ricadonna being advised of it, and 16-22 the 3am final scene.

Since there are cameras everywhere in Ricadonna's flat, 14-15 must happen very closely after 10-13. On the other hand, even though the 4 bozos can be identified "within the hour", Ricadonna presumably needs some time to hire Razorfist to track them down (and him to actually track Freezer Burn down).
Also, in the party Ricadonna attends on page 14, someone tries to hook up with her for lunch "tomorrow". Which would make more sense if it's not midnight yet.

I'd put the midnight break between pages 15 & 16, though it's guess work at best.

Other calendar clues I've overlooked : at the same party, someone tries to discuss the "July" cover of Ricadonna's magazine. Considering the needed lead time, this could be months before that date.
And Ricadonna tells someone to call her office "Monday", which would place the party on Friday or Saturday night.


>>>
Another placement point -- it seems that Danny Rand appears here before he assumes the mantle of Daredevil.
<<<

Yeah, he's in his classic green pajamas in this mini. This would place the mini a bit before the White Tiger LS. 

And thanks to everybody for the identification of the 6 unknown Z-listers !

			*	*	*

Jan 14, 2008 4:45 pm 
By loki

dimadick wrote:
>>>
"Unknown Z-listers : #1, #2. Anny help in identifying those guys"

I have no idea who #1 is supposed to be. #2 on the other hand is wearing the uniform of the Porcupine.

The original Porcupine was Alexander Gentry. He died back in "Captain America" vol. 1 #315 (March, 1986). There is a new Porcupine who made appearances in Thunderbolts #104 (September, 2006) and #107-108 (November - December, 2006). 

I would assume this is the new Porcupine making his first appearance.
<<<

Yes, #2 is the new Porcupine, true identity as yet unrevealed. Jeremy Johnston has #1 right - the Deviant Karkas. #4 is Megacephalo, a new character. #5 is Walrus, and dimadick was close with #6 - it's not Mr. Fish, it's Mr. Fish's brother, per the series' writer.

			*	*	*

Jan 15, 2008 2:17 am 
By dimadick

Loki, there is one still not identified. #3. Do you have the answer to that too? Just to complete the list of characters.

			*	*	*

Jan 15, 2008 7:53 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
Garko the Man-Frog
<<<

Is this the same guy who just showed up in Punisher War Journal as a captive of Al Kraven?Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jan 15, 2008 7:58 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

JD wrote: 
>>>
And Ricadonna tells someone to call her office "Monday", which would place the party on Friday or Saturday night.
<<<

As it so happens, I already placed that party on a Friday night.  Thanks for the extra information, JD.Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jan 15, 2008 3:28 pm 
By loki

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
>>>
Garko the Man-Frog
<<<

Is this the same guy who just showed up in Punisher War Journal as a captive of Al Kraven?
<<<

No. That was someone using a Frog Man/Leap-Frog costume. Garko hasn't been seen in a while.

			*	*	*

Jan 15, 2008 6:09 pm 
By loki

dimadick wrote:
>>>
Loki, there is one still not identified. #3. Do you have the answer to that too? Just to complete the list of characters.
<<<

Sorry, not off hand. Btw, I should have added - Hammer and Anvil are not the originals, who are still dead as far as we know. These are new people copying the original's schtick.

			*	*	*

Jan 16, 2008 3:56 am 
By dimadick

"Garko hasn't been seen in a while." 

He was seen ran over by a car in his very first appearance in "Giant-Size Man-Thing" #4 (April, 1975). Next seen attending a bar in Hell during "Howard the Duck" vol. 3 #5-6 (July - August, 2002). 

I am taking a wild guess and proclaiming him deceased for quite some time.

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 11:57 am 
By jannepie

loki wrote:
>>>
#5 is Walrus, and dimadick was close with #6 - it's not Mr. Fish, it's Mr. Fish's brother, per the series' writer.
<<<

The official handbook bibliographies say that it is Mr. Fish himself, so that might need to be corrected.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibliography-Spider-Man_2007#Walrus


dimadick wrote:
>>>
Loki, there is one still not identified. #3. Do you have the answer to that too? Just to complete the list of characters.
<<<

Deadpool? But who is the man with black hood in the right?

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 6:38 pm 
By loki

jannepie wrote:
>>>
The official handbook bibliographies say that it is Mr. Fish himself, so that might need to be corrected.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibliography-Spider-Man_2007#Walrus
<<<

Not sure why the bibliography misses the word brother out, but it is meant to be the brother, not the original. I'll get the bibliography fixed.

			*	*	*

Thread 35

Subject: Calendar; Punisher MAX 51-54

Jan 25, 2008 1:55 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Punisher #50
Punisher #51
December, 2007

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Barracuda, Sarah Castle

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: same night as end of last issue
Barracuda taunts the Punisher with the little girl, who turns out to be his daughter. 
Pg4-pg5pn1(of 3): next day
The Punisher recovers in the hospital, trying to remember what the hell happened last night. 
Pg5pn2-pg6pn2-FB
The Punisher freaks out and snaps his handcuffs, attacking Barracuda. 
Pg6pn3(of 4): now
The Punisher thinks to himself at the hospital. 
Pg6pn4-pg7pn1-FB
The Punisher bites Barracuda on the face. 
Pg7pn2(of 5): now
The Punisher thinks to himself at the hospital. 
Pg7pn3-pg9-FB
Barracuda stabs the punisher in the ribs, then throws him out the window onto a police car. 
Pg10-pg19: now
Police officers interrogate the Punisher, and he tries to talk them into letting him go; Barracuda will come looking for him and kill everyone in his way. The police will have nothing of it, but the doctor sees the logic and frees him himself. Meanwhile, Barracuda gets his face sewn back together. 
Pg20-pg22: next day
The Punisher wakes up and looks into the girls kidnapping on the internet. It turns out that Kathryns sister was taking care of the kid, and her name is Sarah. He decides to find Kathryns sister so he loads up the car and heads west. 

References: 
Sarah was taken from the day care center late last week, probably a Friday or a Saturday or a Sunday, depending on if you think Sunday ends the week. That would put some time between Punisher gets some target practice and Barracuda kidnaps Sarah. That would put a little over a week between pg13 & pg14 of issue 50. 

Punisher #52
January, 2008

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Barracuda, Sarah Castle

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5pn2(of 4): same day as end of last issue
The Punisher drives towards Kathryns sisters place while Barracuda flies. 
Pg5pn3-pg6-FB: Vietnam, Franks third tour
Frank and his platoon secure their location, then Frank takes a moment to look at a photograph of his pregnant wife and daughter. 
Pg7pn1: now
Frank thinks while he drives. 
Pg7pn2-pg7pn3-FB: years ago
Frank, now wearing his Punisher shirt, visits the graves of his wife and two children. 
Pg7pn4(of 4): now
The Punisher continues to drive. 
Pg8-pg15: next day
The Punisher follows Barb(Kathryns sister) to the mall and drops a cell phone into her purse. He calls an anonymous bomb threat in, which evacuates the mall, to get her to go back home. That night she calls the Punisher, because of a note he tied to it. He tells her that hes Sarahs father, that he has a plan to get her back, and that she has to get out of town for a few days. 
Pg16-pg22: next day
Barb makes a very public exit. That night the Punisher goes into her house looking for Barracuda, who walks in after him. 

References: 
Theres a FlashBack to Kathryn, but theres no new information. 

Does anyone know where this FlashBack to Franks third tour goes in his chronology? 

Punisher #53
February, 2008

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Barracuda, Sarah Castle

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: same night as last issue
The Punisher overpowers Barracuda, takes him out of town, and tortures him. He locks Barracuda in his trunk as he prepares to take Sarah away, but Barracuda frees himself and attacks with a machine gun. 

Punisher #54
March, 2008

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Barracuda, Sarah Castle

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6pn1: same night as last issue
The Punisher beats the crap out of Barracuda, and tears off his nose. He runs off with Sarah while Barracuda wanders into an elementary school. 
Pg6pn2-pg6pn5-FB
A junior high-age Barracuda gouges out a bullys eyes. 
Pg6pn6(of 6): now
Barracuda enters the empty elementary school. 
Pg7pn1-pg7pn5-FB
A high school-age Barracuda, in juvenile hall, cuts off another juvenile delinquents genitals. Shortly afterwards, hes forced into serving in the military, and even later than that he goes on a mission. 
Pg7pn6(of 6): now
Barracuda wanders around the elementary school. 
Pg8pn1-pg8pn5-FB
Barracuda and his platoon bomb a village. Later, Barracuda enters a nightclub. 
Pg8pn6(of 6): now
Barracuda wanders around the elementary school. 
Pg9pn1-pg9pn5-FB
Barracuda is arrested for killing everyone in the nightclub. Later, he kills his cell mate in prison. 
Pg9pn6(of 6)-pg14: now
The Punisher cuts off Barracudas arms with an axe. Then, he liquidates his head with a machine gun. Satisfied that Barracuda wont be getting up again, he retrieves Sarah. 
Pg15-pg16: next day
The Punisher thinks about the future of his daughter, and that night calls Barb to let her know its safe to come home. 
Pg17-pg19pn1: next day
The Punisher gives Sarah to Barb to raise. He tells her to never tell her who her father is, and she asks about her sister Kathryn. 
Pg19pn2-pg19pn3-FB: between pg21 & pg22 of issue 40
The Punisher eats breakfast and look up at Kathryn. 
Pg19pn4(of 4): now
The Punisher tells Barb a story about her sister. 
Pg20pn1-FB: following (19:2-19:3)-FB
Kathryn watches the sun rise as the Punisher watches her. 
Pg20pn2(of 4)-pg22: now
The Punisher leaves and begins to drive back east. 

References: 
The Punisher mentions that issues 37-42 were late last year. 

This is more or less the origin of Barracuda issue. So:

BARRACUDA
PUN7 54 (6:2-6:5)-FB
PUN7 54 (7:1-7:5)-FB
BARRACUDA (15:1)2-FB
PUN7 54 (8:1-8:5)-FB
PUN7 54 (9:1-9:5)-FB
BARRACUDA 2 (4:4)-FB
{PUN7 31}
PUN7 32
PUN7 33
PUN7 34
PUN7 35
PUN7 36
BARRACUDA 1
BARRACUDA 2
BARRACUDA 3
BARRACUDA 4
BARRACUDA 5
PUN7 50-FB
PUN7 50
PUN7 51-FB
PUN7 51
PUN7 52
PUN7 53
PUN7 54

Calendar-wise, Barracudas military history is in the mid-80s. It looks like his time in prison follows closely behind that. 

Overall, for the current day stuff: 

PUN7 40 (6:4-21)
PUN7 54 (19:2-19:3)-FB
PUN7 54 (20:1)-FB
PUN7 40 (22)

PUN7 50 (30:1)-FB: day 1
PUN7 50 (30:3)-FB: day 1
PUN7 50 (1-3): day 1
PUN7 50 (4-8): day 2
PUN7 50 (9:4-13): day 2
PUN7 50 (14): day 13 or 14
PUN7 50 (15-26): day 16
PUN7 50 (27-29): day 17
PUN7 50 (30:2): day 17
PUN7 50 (31-34): day 17
PUN7 51 (1-3): day 17
PUN7 51 (5:2-6:2)-FB: day 17
PUN7 51 (6:4-7:1)-FB: day 17
PUN7 51 (7:3-9)-FB: day 17
PUN7 51 (4-5:1): day 18
PUN7 51 (6:3): day 18
PUN7 51 (7:2): day 18
PUN7 51 (10-19): day 18
PUN7 51 (20-22): day 19
PUN7 52 (1-5:2): day 19
PUN7 52 (7:1): day 19
PUN7 52 (7:4): day 19
PUN7 52 (8-15): day 20
PUN7 52 (16-22): day 21
PUN7 53: day 21
PUN7 54 (1-6:1): day 21
PUN7 54 (6:6): day 21
PUN7 54 (7:6): day 21
PUN7 54 (8:6): day 21
PUN7 54 (9:6)-pg14: day 21
PUN7 54 (15-16: day 22
PUN7 54 (17-19:1): day 23
PUN7 54 (19:4): day 23
PUN7 54 (20:2-22): day 23

Does anyone have any idea where the Third Tour FlashBack, and the visiting the graves FlashBack fits in Franks chronology?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 25, 2008 5:28 am 
By JLH

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Pg5pn3-pg6-FB: Vietnam, Franks third tour
Frank and his platoon secure their location, then Frank takes a moment to look at a photograph of his pregnant wife and daughter. 
<<<

Since this is Ennis, it most likely is right around/before the time of BORN, which was during his third tour as Castle (Frank Jr was born sometime during his third tour).


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Pg7pn2-pg7pn3-FB: years ago
Frank, now wearing his Punisher shirt, visits the graves of his wife and two children. 
<<<

Just his Punisher shirt? No white gloves? That doesn't really help much. What makes it "years ago"? Does Frank look any younger or anything? It could really go anywhere after Punisher Year One, I suppose...

			*	*	*

Jan 26, 2008 2:39 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Just his shirt, no gloves seen, and he looks younger. I took it as they had recently died and he had just become the Punisher. 

How does this look?

PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE"
...
PUN4 3 (8:4)-FB
PUN/CA:B&G 3-FB
BORN 1
BORN 2
BORN 3
*PUN7 52 (5:3-6)-FB
BORN 4 (1 - 18)
PUN@ 4 (3:1)-FB
BORN 4 (19 - 21)
PUN@ 4 (3:2 - 3:4)-FB
PUN4 1 (8:3)-FB
PWZ 21-FB
MICROCHIP 1 (23)
PUN4 1 (15:3 - 15:4)-FB
PWZ 24-FB
PUN2 100-FB
PUN@ 4 (3:6)-FB
PUN: RETURN TO BIG NOTHING-FB
M/PRV 2-FB
*PUN7 50-FB
P: TYGER (45)-FB 
PUN:YO 1 
P: TYGER (47)-FB 
PUN:YO 1
PUN:YO 2
M/SA 1-FB
PUN:YO 2
PUN:YO 3
PUN:YO 4
M/SA 1-FB
PUN4 4 (5)-FB
P:TYGER
*PUN7 52 (7:2-7:3)-FB
M/PRV 2
PB
...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 26, 2008 4:03 am 
By JLH

Looks like it'll work.

Least until the next arc comes along!

			*	*	*

Jan 26, 2008 4:06 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks, JLH!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 36

Subject: Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 1-4 & TOS 50-53

Jan 27, 2008 4:45 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

First: 

IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK

TOS 50
IM 78-FB
TOS 50
TOS 51

TOS 52
IM 78-FB
TOS 53


Im not seeing a spot within TOS 50 for Iron Man to pop in on some troops in Vietnam in IM 78-FB. Was it supposed to be on his way to China or something? Thats very odd, given that they want Iron Man to get to China immediately in TOS 50. Also, Im not sure why it pops up again between TOS 52 & 53. Theres not two FlashBacks in IM 78, its just the one. Ill suggest moving IM 78-FB to just before TOS 50 to preserve the immediacy of the Mandarin mission, and removing IM 78-FB from between TOS 52 & TOS 53. 

Here we go!

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 1 (1-2)
The Mandarin finds a crashed spaceship, enters, and is blinded by a bright light. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 1 (3-8:3)
Tony Stark wakes up and unplugs his chest plate; its finished recharging. He and Veronica Vogue get dressed and talk about the upcoming stockholders dinner. Tony goes to work, where Pepper & Happy ask about his night with Veronica, and Happy mentions that Bill was complaining about the upcoming dinner. Tony chats with Prof. Anton Vanko(Crimson Dynamo) about lazers, and Pepper informs him that Rick Stoner of S.H.I.E.L.D. has requested a meeting with Iron Man, not Tony. Iron Man reports to a S.H.I.E.L.D. location where two agents tell him about a surveillance operation they want him for in China.(Stoner likes to delegate, hes not there) After a few questions, the agents ask if Iron Man has ever heard of the Mandarin, to which Iron Man says The Who?. 

Tales of Suspense 50 (1-3:1)
While the Mandarin chills out, Chinese military officials, including General Ho Lee, approach the Mandarins place. When they arrive he greets them. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 1 (8:4-10)
The Mandarin lets Gen. Lee and his men know who the boss is. They chat for a while, until Gen. Lee mentions the rings

Tales of Suspense 50 (3:2)
Gen. Lee asks about the secrets of the Mandarins rings. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 1 (11:1-11:2)
The Mandarin scoffs at the idea, and even tells Gen. Lee he sounds insane talking the way he is. Then Gen. Lee pushes it a bit too far and threatens the Mandarin. 

Tales of Suspense 50 (3:3-3:5)
The Mandarin freaks out and gives Lee and his men a running start. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 1 (11:3-11:7)
The Mandarin mutters to himself, then kills Lee and his men. 

Tales of Suspense 50 (3:6-4)
Iron Man agrees to check out the Mandarin, then heads back to Stark Industries. He runs into Bill and tells him he wont be able to make it to the upcoming dinner and Bill gets pissed. Happy knocks Bill out and Tony almost fires him over it. Pepper gives them both a piece of her mind. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 1 (12)
Strapped to the bottom of a plane, Iron Man prepares to be dropped over China. 

Tales of Suspense 50 (5:1-5:5)
Iron Man is dropped!

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 1 (13)
Iron Man falls and levels out. 

Tales of Suspense 50 (5:6-6:6)
Approaching the Mandarins castle, Iron Man fights off some guards and checks his power levels. Meanwhile, the Mandarin notices Iron Man on a monitor. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 1 (14-16)
Iron Man enters the castle through the sewer system and is ambushed by the Mandarin, who easily overcomes Iron Man. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 1 (18:2)-FB
The Mandarins men try to open Iron Mans armor, but fail. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 1 (17-21)
The Mandarin researches Iron Man while Iron Man wakes up and tries to escape. The Mandarin notices and gets dressed. 

Tales of Suspense 50 (6:7-7:5)
Iron Man escapes one of the castles traps and enters a large room where the Mandarin greets him. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 1 (22:1-22:2)
The Mandarin comments on Iron Mans lack of respect, and Iron Man figures out that hes talking to the Mandarin. 

Tales of Suspense 50 (7:6-8:1)
The Mandarin compliments Iron Man on beating his castles trap, and Iron Man makes a rude remark.(a power-man despot like you) 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 1 (22:3-22:4)
The Mandarin comments on Iron Mans arrogance and the two face off. 

Tales of Suspense 50 (8:2-12)
Iron Man and the Mandarin fight! Meanwhile, Pepper calls Happy to take her to the upcoming dinner. Back in China, Iron Man thinks hes defeated the Mandarin and starts to run off, commenting that hed like to blow up the castle

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 2 (1-9)
The Mandarin blasts Iron Man and they fight some more! The Mandarin beats the tar out of Iron Man, and in a last ditch effort to get away, Iron Man blows the roof off the castle and flies off. 

Tales of Suspense 50 (13:1)
Iron Man meets up with his rendezvous. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 2 (10-15:3)
Iron Man is dropped off at Stark Industries, where his lab strips away broken armor pieces and re-starts Tonys heart. Meanwhile, the Mandarin decides to gain revenge on Tony Stark for sending his mascot after him. Back at Stark Industries,(the next day, between pg13 & pg14) Pepper notices that Tonys been beat to a pulp, he tells her not to worry about it. She passes Happy in the hallway, whos in a great mood. 

Tales of Suspense 50 (13:2-13:7)
At the dinner, Happy is excited to be there with Pepper until Tony(BTS: in makeup) shows up. Meanwhile, the Mandarin plots

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 2 (15:4-17)
The Mandarin has sent some agents to convince Ebenezer Laughton to give up his life in show business and start a life in industrial espionage. They provide him a costume, but hes not fully convinced. 

Tales of Suspense 51 (1-4:4)
A man is robbing a theaters box office when Iron Man swings by. The robber runs into the theater where Laughton uses his acrobatics to stop him. Iron Man thanks the acrobat for his help. This rubs Laughton the wrong way, and decides to turn his life to crime! He steals a couple of things to warm up, then reads about Tony Stark in the newspaper. Back at Stark Industries, Veronica Vogue shows up asking for Tony and Pepper tries to get rid of her. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 2 (18-19:4)
Tony and Happy are chatting when Pepper calls, telling them that Veronica is here and wont leave. The three come up with an excuse, and Veronica isnt happy about it. 

Tales of Suspense 51 (4:5-5:4)
Veronica leaves, Tony comes out and tries to play the whole thing off. He and Happy head off. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 2 (19:5-20:5)
Tony notices that an alarm is going off, so he and Happy check it out. 

Tales of Suspense 51 (5:5-5:6)
The place is wrecked! 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 2 (20:6-21:1)
Happys not happy. 

Tales of Suspense 51 (5:7-6:4)
The Scarecrow introduces himself and Happy attacks. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 2 (21:2-21:5)
Happy fights the Scarecrow while Tony gets his suit. 

Tales of Suspense 51 (6:5)
Tony grabs his mask 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 2 (22)
and puts it on. Meanwhile, the Scarecrow is about to kill Happy when Iron Man steps in. 

Tales of Suspense 51 (6:6-7)
The Scarecrow runs through a door and covers Iron Man in a blanket when he comes through. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 3 (1-3)
Iron and the Scarecrow fight! 

Tales of Suspense 51 (8:1)
Iron Man is distracted by the crows. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 3 (4:1-4:2)
Iron Man falls out the window. 

Tales of Suspense 51 (8:2)
Iron Man makes a comment

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 3 (4:3-4:4)
and curses as he lands on the parking garage. 

Tales of Suspense 51 (8:3-8:9)
The Scarecrow gets what he came for and eludes Happy. Meanwhile, Iron Man watches the crows fly away. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 3 (5-8)
Happy meets up with Iron Man and they agree he was working for someone, and not on his own. Meanwhile, the Mandarin is updated on how things are going and he checks in on how another operation of his is going. 

Tales of Suspense 51 (9-13)
The Scarecrow calls up Tony in an attempt to get more money from him in return for what he stole. Iron Man quickly meets up with him and retrieves the information, but the Scarecrow escapes. Back at Stark Industries, Tony gives Pepper and Happy Broadway tickets. (BTS: its wasnt the original information, and Tony knows it!) 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 3 (9-15)
Tony and Anton Vanko chat about lazers while they track the stolen information. Once they have a lock, Iron Man flies off and takes care of it. The Scarecrow escapes, and the Mandarins men kill themselves rather than be interrogated. Two days later,(between pg 12 & pg13) The Mandarin goes to a monastery and hypnotizes his son Temugin into working for him as an industrial spy. 

-15 days worth of space here-

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 3 (16:1-16:3)
Temugin is hired at Stark Industries as a maintenance man. 

-more space here, undefined-

Tales of Suspense 52 (1-7:1)
Vanko tests his lazers and is met by Stark. Meanwhile, Boris & Natasha(the Black Widow) are sent to retrieve Vanko. A few days later,(between pg 3 & pg4) Boris & Natasha meet Tony and walk past Happy & Pepper. While Natasha distracts Tony, Boris incapacitates Vanko, steals his Crimson Dynamo suit, and causes an explosion. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 3 (16:4-16:5)
Temugins working at Stark Industries when en explosion erupts. 

Tales of Suspense 52 (7:2-7:6)
Tonys informed of the explosion, leaves Natasha, and suits up. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 3 (17:1-17:4)
Temugin watches Iron Man fly overhead. 

Tales of Suspense 52 (8:1-8:5)
Iron Man attempts to put out the fire but is ambushed by Boris. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 3 (17:5-18:1)
Boris shoots Iron Man from behind. Meanwhile, Stark employees are evacuated. 

Tales of Suspense 52 (8:6-11:2)
Boris hands Iron Man over to his superiors and leaves. Iron Man wakes up, finds Vanko, and escapes. He returns to Stark Industries and confronts Boris. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 3 (18:2)
Iron Man slugs Boris. 

Tales of Suspense 52 (11:3-11:4)
Vanko warns Iron Man, and Boris fights back. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 3 (18:3-19:1)
As Stark employees evacuate, Vanko, on his way to his lazer gun, tries to show Temugin to safety. Meanwhile, Boris lifts some machinery. 

Tales of Suspense 52 (11:5-12)
Iron Man knocks the machinery loose, fights Boris, but is distracted by the Black Widow. Vanko grabs his lazer gun. 

Tales of Suspense 53 (6:5)-FB
Iron Man decides to let Natasha go. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 3 (19:2-19:3)
Vanko yells at Boris. 

Tales of Suspense 52 (13:1-13:2)
Boris yells at Vanko. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 3 (19:4)
Iron Man yells at Vanko. 

Tales of Suspense 52 (13:3)
Vanko shoots!

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 3 (20:1-20:2)
Vankos gun explodes, killing Boris and himself. 

Tales of Suspense 52 (13:4)
The Black Widow recoils from the blast. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 3 (20:3-20:4)
The Black Widow runs off as Iron Man holds Vankos body in front of Boris body. 

Tales of Suspense 52 (13:5-13:7)
Iron Man changes back into Tony and checks in with Happy & Pepper. Meanwhile, the Black Widow realizes that shes now a fugitive thanks to her failure. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 3 (20:5-21:1)
Temugin lies in bed, thinking about what he has to do. 

Tales of Suspense 53 (1-13)
Tony works on an anti-gravity machine. The next day, the Black Widow arrives at Stark Industries and steals it. After some running around, Iron Man disables the device, but the Black Widow gets away. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 3 (21:2-22)
Tony, Happy, and Pepper attend Vankos funeral. That night, Temugin approaches Tony in his office, and he shoots him. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 4 (1-22)
The bullet hit Tonys chest plate, revealing that he is Iron Man. He and Temugin struggle throughout the building, and eventually Temugin escapes. Afterwards, Tony is called back to S.H.I.E.L.D. where hes informed that one of S.H.I.E.L.D.s satellites, that Stark designed, is a target for the Mandarin. He gets to a terminal to see if he can lock the Mandarins hackers out, but its too late. A young Maria Hill is impressed by Tonys computer know-how. That night, Tony goes to his lab and creates a new Iron Man suit, and notes that the Avengers have been updated on the Mandarins status. Back in China, the Mandarin erases Temugins memory and leaves him in his monastery. 

References: 
Up to this point, Enter the Mandarin lines up nicely with how we have Iron Mans chronology listed. As Im sure you can see, there are specific events that line up between this & TOS. All of this fits with events from other books of the time, leaving space for issues of the Avengers, Fantastic Four, etc. Issue four is where things may possibly start to deviate from how we have it. 

Iron Mans old armor last appeared in Avengers 5 & TOS 53. His new classic armor first appears in Avengers 6 and TOS 54. The creation of the new armor hasnt been shown before, but it is depicted here, in Enter the Mandarin 4. 

As we currently have it, roughly: 

TOS 53 (old)
A 5 (old)
A 6 (new)
TOS 54 (new)

The same guy wrote this & Earths Mightiest Heroes, which in this case is a good thing. He opened up some space between Avengers 5 & 6 with EMH 2 & 3, and at the very least, the last few pages of Enter the Mandarin 3 and all of issue 4 will have to go in that slot. 

Just a heads up:
Enter the Mandarin 5 & 6 arent out yet, but I wouldnt be at all surprised if Casey wants TOS 54 & 55 to go between Avengers 5 & 6. The armor would definitely work in that sequence, and I dont see any reason why that couldnt work otherwise. Again, I dont know if thats whats going to happen, and its very possible that it may not, Im just getting prepared. 

Are you ready for some placement suggestions?

IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK 
 
A 4 (1-15) 
A: EMH 2 (1-15) 
**IM 78-FB 
*IM: ETM 1 (1-11)
TOS 50 (1-4)
*IM: ETM 1 (12)
TOS 50 (5:1-5:5)
*IM: ETM 1 (13)
TOS 50 (5:6-6:6)
*IM: ETM 1 (14-16)
*IM: ETM 1-FB
*IM: ETM 1 (17-21)
TOS 50 (6:7-7:5)
*IM: ETM 1 (22:1-22:2)
TOS 50 (7:6-8:1)
*IM: ETM 1 (22:3-22:4)
TOS 50 (8:2-12)
*IM: ETM 2 (1-9)
TOS 50 (13:1)
*IM: ETM 2 (10-17)
TOS 50 (13:2-13:7)
TOS 51 (1-4:4)
*IM: ETM 2 (18-19:4)
TOS 51 (4:5-5:4)
*IM: ETM 2 (19:5-20:5)
TOS 51 (5:5-5:6)
*IM: ETM 2 (20:6-21:1)
TOS 51 (5:7-6:4)
*IM: ETM 2 (21:2-21:5)
TOS 51 (6:5)
*IM: ETM 2 (22)
TOS 51 (6:6-7)
*IM: ETM 3 (1-3)
TOS 51 (8:1)
*IM: ETM 3 (4:1-4:2)
TOS 51 (8:2)
*IM: ETM 3 (4:3-4:4)
TOS 51 (8:3-8:9)
*IM: ETM 3 (5-8)
TOS 51 (9-13)
*IM: ETM 3 (9-16)
A 4 (16-23) 
CA: SL2 5 
CA: SL2 6 
SENTRY 1-FB 
FF 25 
FF 26 
A 5 (1-3:3) 
TOS 52 (1-7)
*IM: ETM 3 (17:1-17:4)
TOS 52 (8:1-8:5)
*IM: ETM 3 (17:5-18:1)
TOS 52 (8:6-11:2)
*IM: ETM 3 (18:2)
TOS 52 (11:3-11:4)
*IM: ETM 3 (18:3-19:1)
TOS 52 (11:5-12)
TOS 53-FB 
*IM: ETM 3 (19:2-19:3)
TOS 52 (13:1-13:2)
*IM: ETM 3 (19:4)
TOS 52 (13:3)
*IM: ETM 3 (20:1-20:2)
TOS 52 (13:4)
*IM: ETM 3 (20:3-20:4)
TOS 52 (13:5-13:7)
TOS 53 
A 5 (3:4-15) 
A: EMH 2 (16-18) 
A 5 (16-18:4) 
A: EMH 2 (19:1) 
A 5 (18:5) 
A: EMH 2 (19:2) 
A 5 (18:6)-BTS 
A: EMH 2 (19:3-19:5) 
A 5 (16-23) 
A: EMH 2 (20-22) 
*IM: ETM 3 (21:2-22)
*IM: ETM 4
A: EMH 3 (1-15) 
A 6 (1-4) 
MARVELS 2 (1-3) 
A 6 (5-17:3) 
A: EMH 3 (16-17:5) 
A 6 (17:4) 
A: EMH 3 (18-19) 
A 6 (17:5-18) 
MARVELS 2 (4-5) 
A 6 (19-22) 
A: EMH 3 (20-22) 
A 6 (23) 
A: EMH 4 (1-5) 
TOS 54 
TOS 55
...

BLACK WIDOW II/NATASHA ROMANOVA 

{TOS 52 (1-12)}
TOS 53-FB
TOS 52 (13:1-13:4)
*IM: ETM 3
TOS 52 (13:5-13:7)
TOS 53


CRIMSON DYNAMO/PROF. ANTON VANKO 
IM 22-FB
TOS 46-FB
TOS 56-FB
TOS 46-FB
{TOS 46}
*IM: ETM 1
TOS 52 (1-11:4)
*IM: ETM 3 (1-19:1)
TOS 52 (11:5-12)
*IM: ETM 3 (19:2-19:3)
TOS 52 (13:1-13:2)
*IM: ETM 3 (19:4)-BTS
TOS 52 (13:3)
*IM: ETM 3 (20:1-20:2)
TOS 52 (13:3)
*IM: ETM 3 (20:3-22)

CRIMSON DYNAMO II/BORIS TURGENOV 
TOS 52 (1-8:5)
*IM: ETM 3 (1-18:1)
TOS 52 (8:6-11:2)
*IM: ETM 3 (18:2)
TOS 52 (11:3-11:4)
*IM: ETM 3 (18:3-19:1)
TOS 52 (11:5-12)
TOS 53-FB
*IM: ETM 3 (19:2-19:3)
TOS 52 (13:1-13:3)
*IM: ETM 3 (20:1-20:2)
TOS 52 (13:4-13:7)
*IM: ETM 3 (20:3-22)

MANDARIN 
M/CP 169-FB
TOS 62 (2:2 - 3:4)-FB
IM 274 (6:3)-FB
TOS 62 (3:5 - 4:1)-FB
*IM: ETM 1 (1)
IM 274 (6:4 - 6:5)-FB
TOS 62 (4:2 - 4:3)-FB
IM 274 (6:6)-FB
TOS 62 (4:4)-FB
IM 274 (7:1)-FB
TOS 62 (4:5 - 5:4)-FB
*IM: ETM 1 (2)
IM 274 (7:2)-FB
TOS 62 (5:5 - 6:6)-FB
TTA 66-FB
IM 267-FB
TOS 39-BTS
IM 268-FB
TOS 39-BTS
IM 268-FB
{TOS 50 (1-3:1)}
*IM: ETM 1 (8:4-10)
TOS 50 (3:2)
*IM: ETM 1 (11:1-11:2)
TOS 50 (3:3-3:5)
*IM: ETM 1 (11:3-13)
TOS 50 (3:6-6:6)
*IM: ETM 1 (14-21)
TOS 50 (6:7-7:5)
*IM: ETM 1 (22:1-22:2)
TOS 50 (7:6-8:1)
*IM: ETM 1 (22:3-22:4)
TOS 50 (8:2-12)
*IM: ETM 2 (1-13)
TOS 50 (13)
*IM: ETM 2 (14-22)
*IM: ETM 3
*IM: ETM 4
TOS 54
TOS 55


HILL, MARIA
*IM: ETM 4
{SECWAR 5}


HOGAN, HAROLD J. "HAPPY" 

TOS 49
*IM: ETM 1
TOS 50 (1-12)
*IM: ETM 2 (1-17)
TOS 50 (13)
*IM: ETM 2 (18-19:4)
TOS 51 (1-5:4)
*IM: ETM 2 (19:5-20:5)
TOS 51 (5:5-5:6)
*IM: ETM 2 (20:6-21:1)
TOS 51 (5:7-7)
*IM: ETM 2 (21:2-22)
*IM: ETM 3 (1-4)
TOS 51 (8)
*IM: ETM 3 (5-20)
TOS 51 (9-13)
TOS 52
TOS 53
*IM: ETM 3 (21-22)
*IM: ETM 4
TOS 54
TOS 55


HOGAN, VIRGINIA "PEPPER" POTTS 

TOS 49
*IM: ETM 1
TOS 50 (1-12)
*IM: ETM 2 (1-17)
TOS 50 (13)
TOS 51 (1-4:4)
*IM: ETM 2 (18-19:4)
TOS 51 (4:5-13)
TOS 52
TOS 53
*IM: ETM 3
*IM: ETM 4
A: EMH 3-VO
TOS 54
TOS 55
TOS 56


SCARECROW/EBENEZER LAUGHTON 
GR@ 2-FB
*IM: ETM 2 (1-17)
{TOS 51 (1-6:4)}
*IM: ETM 2 (18-22)
TOS 51 (6:6-7)
*IM: ETM 3 (1-3)
TOS 51 (8-13)
*IM: ETM 3 (4-22)
UTSM 22
FF@ 3


STONER, RICK
FURY 1-FB
*IM: ETM 1-BTS
FURY 1-FB

TEMUGIN 
IM3 54-FB
IM3 53-FB
*IM: ETM 3
*IM: ETM 4
{IM3 53}
IM3 54
IM3 55
IM3 65-BTS
IM3 66-BTS
IM3 67-BTS
IM3 68
IM3 69

Depending on how issue five ends, I'll either do it by itself, then six when it comes out, or I may wait until both are out. We'll see!

-Daron Jensen
