	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Longshot miniserie placement
2. House of Mittens
3. X-Men First Class v2 #5
4. Character names
5. Secret Invasion Saga
6. M/CP 141-174
7. Power Man 29
8. ANNOUNCEMENT
9. 2004 "Guardians" mini canon?
10. GR3 94/2
11. Walter "Old Man" Jameson
12. W3 63-FB
13. Captain America #34 (Director's Cut)
14. Avengers Fairy Tales has a canon page.
15. Couple of notes..
16. Spidey entry- SM/DS:WDD
17. Shroud note
18. Avengers Classic 10
19. Characters with grouped codenames [INITIATIVE 1-10 SPOILERS]
20. Fantastic Four Annual 14 and 16
21. How old was Matt Murdock when he lost his sight?

	Alternate Universe/Timeline Forum
22. NIGHTSIDE


	Issue Analysis Forum
23. CFA: Hulk Nightmerica
24. Daredevil 101-105
25. Triple-A Baseball Heroes giveaway
26. Thor v2 67 & 79
27. Hawkeye v4 1-8
28. Wisdom 1-6
29. Captain America: The Legend
30. March Call for Analyses
31. the TWELVE 2
32. Spider-Man/Dr. Octopus: Out of Reach 1-5
33. What The--?! #15-16
34. Deadline 1-4
35. Guardians (2004) #1-5
36. Marvel Knights: Double-Shot 4
37. Spider-Man/Kingpin: To the Death
38. Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 6 & TOS 55
39. Marvel Knights: Double-Shot 3
40. Call 1-4
41. Starlord 1-3
42. Punisher MAX 55
43. Call of Duty: Various
44. Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man
45. Howard the Duck Holiday Special #1 (Feb. 1997)

	Chat Forum
46. Founding of Damage Control







Thread 1

Subject: Longshot miniserie placement

Feb 23, 2008 7:24 pm 
By frogcoin

Hi all,

long time dont post here, BTW this is a nice improvement of the board 
im having smome problems placing longshot miniseries in chronology, hope that some of you can lend me a hand, im using as reference the secret wars II and uncanny X-men because im reading only x-men related titles, so heres the character lists:

She-Hulk
SWII 2
Lshot 4
SWII 5

Spider-man
SWII 2
Lshot 3
Lshot 4
SWII 7

Dr Strange
Lshot 5
Lshot 6
SWII 5

then we have Spiral
UX 199
Lshot 1-6

but the problem comes when Colossus, nightcrawler, phoenix, rogue and shadowcat chronology says
SWII 5
UX 199

So spiral makes collide all of the sequence. The official marvel index indicates that spiral sequence is the correct one but i dont see any reason why it could not be reversed, she says "while i wait for the proper confluence of astral forces to enable me to rejoin mojo and continue our hunt for the runaway" and editor indicates that you can see the outcome in the Lshot miniseries

My point is spiral can move freely trought dimendions but Dr. strange was the one who send them to other dimension trought magic and "maybe" he wanted to be sure that they didnt come back. so spiral line could make sense "after the miniseries" yeah i know the index its official but i would like oppinions and suggestions. maybe the result can be in the chronology project 

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Feb 25, 2008 2:28 pm 
By Starman

I used to put Spiral's appearence in Uncanny X-Men #199 after Longshot 1 and before Longshot 3, but later I decided to put it straight after Longshot 6, having the whole Longshot mini occuring before Uncanny X-Men #199.
I think either of these placements may work for her, but placing her appearence in Uncanny X-Men #199 before Longshot 1 may not.
After the mini-series works better I think, as her thought bubble says "...rejoin Mojo and continue our hunt...".
In Longshot 1 to 3 she hunts Longshot together with other bounty hunters and besides being part "ghost" is also more scantily clad.
In Longshot 4 to 6 she isn't "ghostly" anymore, is dressed like in Uncanny X-Men #199 and hunts Longshot together with Mojo, thus the rejoin and continue words in her thoughts ring more true and the way she's dressed.

So either:
SPIRAL 
XF@ 7-FB
{LSHOT 1}
***UX 199***
LSHOT 3
LSHOT 4
LSHOT 5
LSHOT 6
UX 205
UX 206

Or the chronology order I favour more:
SPIRAL 
XF@ 7-FB
{LSHOT 1}
LSHOT 3
LSHOT 4
LSHOT 5
LSHOT 6
***UX 199***
UX 205
UX 206- Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

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Mar 01, 2008 4:01 pm 
By frogcoin

hey thx for the reply starman, i didnt check the boards since a few days.

Nice i didnt tought in that way about "rejoin and continue" that can apply also, my main concern is that all the characters imply that the universe chronology goes in this order if we fit all the appearances together (not counting spiral collision)

Lshot1-3
SWII 2
Lshot 4-6
SWII 5
UX 199
SWII 7
UX 205
UX 206

i personally think the second order you suggested looks better also, it fits in the universe placement.
by the way a sneak peek to my work (yes i know it needs a lot of work yet)

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Thread 2

Subject: House of Mittens

Feb 28, 2008 4:46 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

I finished reading House of M: Avengers, and here are my thoughts. 

The House of M was a reality shift created y the Scarlet Witch. The histories people remember of it aren't real, they were false memories given to everyone so that world would work. Wolverine's memories of being trained by Fury? No. The mutant/human war? Nope. None of it 'happened', up to the point of the reality shift. 

We found some wiggle room to make some of the FlashBacks and the Spider-Man mini work, thanks to a HandBook entry about Wolverine fighting his memories. But that only opened up so much 'time', and some of the 'older' memories just couldn't fit. 

What we have with House of M: Avengers is the history of Luke Cage's Avengers team, how they formed, why they were where they were, etc. Nothing in this series takes place during House of M Proper, it all leads up to where that team is before House of M. Really, it's like Wolverine's memories of being trained by Nick Fury., it's outside the timeframe of what actually happened. 

As far as I can tell, we have a miniseries made up completely of false memories. They're what Luke Cage remembered when he was IN the House of M, but they're all false memories created by the Scarlet Witch, implanted through Xavier. Meaning, this mini can't go in anyone's chronologies. 

Those are my thoughts at the moment, what are yours?

-Daron Jensen

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Feb 28, 2008 6:55 am 
By wolframbane

Here is my personal take of histories for 'new' universes. 

When a new reality is created 'from scratch' (like the Franklinverse or Eurth from Avataars) by powerful beings, it does not necessarily simply exist from its moment of creation, but that its entire history that reaches back to the dawn of time is created, in essence giving it an actual history. Thus when the Franklinverse was created, the full history was created for this universe as well, and the people from the reality lived full lives as well, not just having been created and given false memories of theat reality. Thus, when the FF and Avengers were reborn on that world, they relived there lives again, albeit slightly differently, before returning to Earth-616.

When a new reality is created by altering an existing reality (such as House of M), it may or may not affect the history of that world depending on the nature of the alteration. In the case of House of M, the alteration appears to have reached back through time as well (Captain Britian prevented it from spreading fully to other dimensions), and the 'altered history' really happened, only to again be negated after House of M passed. One example of this is the case of Sir Warren Traveller, the Sorceror Supreme of the House of M reality, who had left that reality sometime in that past prior to M-Day occurring but his past was definitely the House of M past. And when he returned to House of M, it was gone, replaced by Earth-616. It is possible that other altered realities may or may not have changed the past (such as Morgan le Fay creating Earth-398 and the Queen's Vengeance, Kulan Gast recreating the Hyborian Age, or Mephisto changing Spider-Man's life), but these may depend on the method in which reality was rewritten.

Some altered universes themselves may even continue to exist after the status quo has been restored (such as Earth of 1602 or the Amalgam Universe) through the interference of certain 'higher powers', possibly though the causing said reality to diverge such as a divergent universe (see below), allowing one reality to be restored to normal but allowing the altered reality to exist as a divergent universe. These universe also retain a definite past (such as Super Soldier's activities during WWII on Amalgam Earth).

With regards to alternate universes, there are two kinds, parallel and divergent universes. Parallel universes are alternate universes that exist independently, and do not necessarily have any connection to Earth-616 (ie no point of divergence), such as the Ultimate Universe or the Ultraverse. Divergent universes are universes that were, once upon a time, Earth-616 (or whatever particular Earth they diverged from). At some point in their past, a point of divergence occurred (sometimes because of a time traveller, such as Age of Apocalypse, or sometimes with no apparent catalyst, like most What If worlds), which causes a divergent Earth/reality to appear. Note that divergent Earths are not simply alternate earths with identical histories up until a certain point, they are Earth-616 until the point of divergence, at which point they branch off and become another universe. Thus this new universe also has a full history, it just happens to be the one and the same history as Earth-616. If it helps, picture a developing child within the first few hours of life, its just a mass of cells, up until the mass separates into twins, both were the same entity to start with a shared existance and history, then they split and have their own distinct path. 

Man, quantum temporal mechanics give me a headache!!

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Feb 28, 2008 6:47 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks for the feedback, wolframbane. 

The difference between House of M & an alternate reality is, the House of M WAS Earth-616, just changed.(What Captain Britain stopped was the Scarlet Witch's hex wave) When the Exiles came to Earth-616 in their tie-in issues, they went to the House of M. They weren't redirected to a new place, they went to that changed world. Also, the reason Wolverine was having his problems was because he had overlapping memories fighting each other.(when everyone was given their greatest wish in this 'new' world, his wish was to remember his past. But, he was also given a false past, a wrong set of memories, and the two conflicted with each other) Also, when the heroes were found they were given their 'real' memories, revealing the false world they were in. 

Given that, I don't think House of M was an alternte reality. As presented in various books, it was a changed Earth-616, and it eventually changed back. Since House of M: Avengers happens before the Scarlet Witch gave everyone false memories, it's basically a book of what Luke Cage remembers of his false House of M past.

-Daron Jensen

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Feb 28, 2008 8:26 pm 
By Jason Doty

I have a slightly different take on the House of M. I think that the Scarlet Witch made it possible for the 616 to overlap the House of M when it faded to white. I believe in Uncanny that this was the reason the Omniverse showed realities collapsing on each other. So my suggestion would be that anything occuring before the fade to white event would be listed as happening to the House of M reality characters, instead of false memories and anything happining after would be contributed to both the 616 characters and the House of M characters simultaneously as if they were merged. That way, any future comics that come out can be accounted for as well as the series f/b's and such. I know this is going to raise a debate and I did agree to abide by the concenus of the group in the following debate, but in the light of new series and such, I think we should deffinately re-address this.

			*	*	*

Feb 28, 2008 8:38 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I'm with Fury on this one*. This was hashed out back around the time of HoM itself, and I don't see the benefit of reheating the debate. We didn't include any HoMverse flashbacks we deemed to be "before the first white-out", and I don't see that it's going to help to try it again right now. I know you pushed really, really hard for them to count at the time Jason (see Archives 64 and 66), but the basic points don't seem to have been altered to change the choices that were made then.

*Well, except for the idea that Spider-Man: HoM could be made to "work" in any form, but that's also a debate long-gone now 

			*	*	*

Feb 28, 2008 11:13 pm 
By jephyork

Yeah. No. Let's please not reopen this can of worms. No "new evidence" has been entered that the House of M, the Franklinverse, or any other "changed-616"-style alternate reality is anything but an altered present with manufactured memories.

"Warren Traveler remembers his HoM past" is not evidence that his past actually happened. It just means that he avoided the second whiteout that restored the "real" Marvel universe. Same thing happened with Proteus, over in Exiles.

-Jeph!

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Feb 28, 2008 11:22 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Also, the reason Wolverine was having his problems was because he had overlapping memories fighting each other.(when everyone was given their greatest wish in this 'new' world, his wish was to remember his past. But, he was also given a false past, a wrong set of memories, and the two conflicted with each other) Also, when the heroes were found they were given their 'real' memories, revealing the false world they were in.
<<<

Let's not forget the Pulse crossover issue, where Hawkeye looks at an issue of the Daily Bugle and sees it as it really is, not as the Scarlet Witch is making everyone else see it. All of the evidence from the main series, and from crossovers written by the main series' writer, supports the 'House of M is the real world, altered by the Scarlet witch's wishes' theory and fails to support - or outright contradicts - the 'House of M was a real world that was merged with Earth-616' theory. If HoM was a distinct world that merged with Earth-616, why would everyone who was given their real memories think that everything from HoM was false? Surely if HoM were in fact another reality, they'd be fighting to have both worlds restored, not just Earth-616.

			*	*	*

Feb 28, 2008 11:33 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
Let's not forget the Pulse crossover issue, where Hawkeye looks at an issue of the Daily Bugle and sees it as it really is, not as the Scarlet Witch is making everyone else see it.
<<<

And Peter Parker's diary, which HoM-Ben and HoM-Gwen are confused by, as it relates 616 events...

-Jeph!

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Feb 29, 2008 3:22 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

I knew I was forgetting something!  The revived characters(Gwen, Ben, Hawkeye) could see through the illusion, but were confused by it. Thanks, guys! 

It's a strange mini, this one. I don't think it belongs on the non-canon list as it ties into a crossover,(two years too late) and yet I don't think it belongs on the Checklist, as none of it really 'happened'.  

Thanks for the feedback, folks!

-Daron Jensen

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Feb 29, 2008 10:49 am 
By cweed4

Somebody wrote:
I'm with Fury on this one*. This was hashed out back around the time of HoM itself, and I don't see the benefit of reheating the debate. We didn't include any HoMverse flashbacks we deemed to be to "before the first white-out", and I don't see that it's going to help to try it again right now. I know you pushed really, really hard for them to count at the time Jason (see Archives 64 and 66), but the basic points don't seem to have been altered to change the choices that were made then.

*Well, except for the idea that Spider-Man: HoM could be made to "work" in any form, but that's also a debate long-gone now 
As someone that came to this board after HoM I would be curious to read some of these old debates. Based solely on this thread I would guess I am in complete agreement with Somebody's opinion. I never thought SM:HoM could possibly fit into continuity. It seemed to contrast w/ HoM so much that I avoided all the other minis (including the new Avengers one) despite liking the main series very much.

Can anyone provide a link to these threads? My initial searches haven't turned up anything.

			*	*	*

Feb 29, 2008 10:57 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

The link to the Archives is at the bottom of every page of the forum, under 'Forum Archives'. The HoM debates that Somebody mentioned, in Archives 64 & 66, are the ones labeled as ending in October, 2005 & December, 2005. Be warned, it lasted for several pages. 

The Archives are zipped files, so you'll need to be able to unzip them.

-Daron Jensen

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Feb 29, 2008 11:18 am 
By Somebody
Director

There were various threads as I recall - the one in A66 is one of the biggest, but I don't think it was the last. I just stopped there because I'd made my point.

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Feb 29, 2008 11:34 am 
By cweed4

Thanks. I'm sure it will be a fun read!

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Feb 29, 2008 11:54 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
It's a strange mini, this one. I don't think it belongs on the non-canon list as it ties into a crossover,(two years too late) and yet I don't think it belongs on the Checklist, as none of it really 'happened'.
<<<

And yet, I've already added "House of M: Avengers" to the Checklist a few months back. All of the other "House of M" mini-series were added back when we first got the Checklist up and running, but does a mini-series composed entirely of false memories deserve to be on the Checklist? Should I remove this latest mini-series?

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Feb 29, 2008 12:34 pm 
By Somebody
Director

If there's no framing sequence/narration from either the "real" HoM or the actual present, I'd remove it.

			*	*	*

Feb 29, 2008 1:04 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

There's no framing sequence, it takes place entirely in the 'HoM past'. I'd also say remove it.

-Daron Jensen

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Feb 29, 2008 1:13 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Agreed. The only POSSIBLE way I could see to even give it ANY credence on the MCP is by using the tenuous argument that since all these false memories were created by the Scarlet Witch, she should get a BTS for each issue, and they should get placed right after the first "white-out" in House of Muffins #1...

-Jeph!

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Feb 29, 2008 1:22 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

IF we were to go down that route, we'd have to include a BTS for Xavier as well. She used his telepathy to find out what everyone's 'greatest wish' was, and then to install the false memories... If I remember right.

-Daron Jensen

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Feb 29, 2008 7:20 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Okay, it sounds like it's worthy of being taken off of the Checklist...but wasn't there some other "House of M" mini-series that were set entirely in the fictional past? (like "Fantastic Four: House of M" or "Spider-man: House of M"?)

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Feb 29, 2008 8:50 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

HoM: FF was roughly concurrent with the main series, and even though HoM: S-M took place before HoM Proper, we found a way to make it work.

-Daron Jensen

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Mar 01, 2008 12:04 am 
By Starman

Maybe we could give House of M its own section, just like we've done with 2099, Killraven, Ultimate and Age of Apocalypse?- Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

			*	*	*

Mar 01, 2008 1:26 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

Okay, I've removed "House of M: Avengers" from the Checklist, but every other "House of M" mini-series stays...for now.

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Mar 01, 2008 9:06 am 
By Jason Doty

How about we use a new annotation for the character chronologies to account for this anomoly such as -ficf/b (fictional flashback) that occurs after the white-out, but before the modern story. This would account for all of the House of M crossovers set in the past as well as all the false memories as well as those re-animated. 

So every one who appeared in the House of M (both in the main series and the others would get an entry like this)

Thunderbird
UX 95
HOM 1-BTS
HOM:A 1-ficf/b
HOM:A 2-ficf/b
HOM:A 3-ficf/b
HOM:A 4-ficf/b
HOM:a 5-ficf/b
HOM 8-BTS

No doubt using this type of annotation will help with future flashbacks in the current Spider-Man series that take place before One More Day.

			*	*	*

Mar 01, 2008 10:49 am 
By jephyork
Director

Jason, I know you like to push for this every now and then, but -- if an event didn't really happen, why would we list it?

Should we list all of Wolverine's implanted memories, too?

-Jeph!
EDIT: Also, Thunderbird doesn't appear BTS in House of M #8.

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Mar 01, 2008 11:17 am 
By Jason Doty

I'm implying everyone who appeared in the House of M would get a BTS when the world reverted. This would include all of the dead characters who were reanimated during the House of M. (Illyanna, Proteus, Thunderbird, Uncle Ben, ect...) These people re-existed once the House of M kicked off.

Even though these events did'nt occur according to the group concensus they where dipicted as actually happening. So while I don't advocate altering chronologies, the characters interacted like they did because of these events. They were "real" to the characters and depicted as such.

The annotation would help in future events as well as past ones, with the constant number of inconsistancies that constantly pop up, my suggestion would allow for the whole of House of M being included chronologically as it was intended, fix Wolverine's chronology, and allow for future events in Spider-Man to happen without negating or droping anything from the chronology project. Higher power acts are going to pop up from time to time. Should someone who uses this project as research tool for their favorite character not know that Wolverine or whoever appeared in Marvel Universe: The End because the event ceased to occur after the conclusion of the series? The event happened in order to be fixed and the character appeared in the order depicted.

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Mar 01, 2008 8:13 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
I'm implying everyone who appeared in the House of M would get a BTS when the world reverted.
<<<<

I knew what you meant. I'm just saying that it didn't happen in #8. 


>>>
the characters interacted like they did because of these events. They were "real" to the characters and depicted as such.
<<<

And for years, Wolverine behaved and interacted with others as he did because he was loaded up with false memories. Should we list them all too?


>>>
my suggestion would allow for the whole of House of M being included chronologically as it was intended
<<<

I take issue with your usage of the phrase "as it was intended". Do you have some evidence that the House of M's past was "intended" to have actually occurred? Because we've given loads of evidence that it *wasn't* intended that way, both in the previous archived threads and in this thread as well.


>>>
fix Wolverine's chronology
<<<

What's wrong with Wolverine's chronology?


>>>
Should someone who uses this project as research tool for their favorite character not know that Wolverine or whoever appeared in Marvel Universe: The End because the event ceased to occur after the conclusion of the series?
<<<

Now you're discussing time travel, which is a completely different thing.


>>>
The event happened in order to be fixed and the character appeared in the order depicted.
<<<

And all of the alternate "Days of Future Past" timeline, from 1980 to 2013, had to happen in order for Kate Pryde to come back and fix it. Should we list every single DoFP comic in-between pages of UX #142?

By the way, people doing online research on their favorite characters aren't limited to the MCP. There are loads of other websites out there that list every single appearance of a character, canon or not. We've got a different mission statement -- and I like to think that those who do come here to do their research know what our mission statement is. If they need to know about non-canon appearances, erased events, false memories, and fictional pasts of altered universes -- presumably they would also know that they'd need to research elsewhere.

I'd like to point out, for the record, that we've now re-opened the EXACT same can of worms that earlier in the thread we said we didn't want to re-open, and we've done so without ANY new evidence to re-evaluate our earlier conclusions. In the court system, this is called "double jeopardy", and it's illegal.

So, until someone comes up with (a) some new evidence that the House of M past actually happened, or (b) a compelling and different argument that the MCP should expand its mission statement to include manufactured or erased events ... I'd like to put the brakes on this thread, please. We're just re-treading the same old ground.

-Jeph!

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Mar 01, 2008 8:27 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Jason, RTFFAQ:

http://www.chronologyproject.com/faq.htm#Q3 wrote:
>>>
Q. The Flying Banana appears in Ragin' Cajun #31. You don't list him. Why?
[...]
4. Was this really an appearance, as opposed to a dream sequence, a remembrance, or an apocryphal story? Many web pages elect to list these kinds of appearances, which is fine. But remember: we're the Marvel Chronology Project, not the Marvel Appearances Project.
<<<

This is not an oversight, or an unforeseen possibility. It's a basic tenet of the MCP. To challenge that... actually, I was going to type something else here, but I'm not sure you CAN challenge that.

			*	*	*

Mar 01, 2008 9:40 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

What he said, and I'll add: 

One day, Earth-616 is normal. 

The next day the Scarlet Witch freaks out, casts an illusion over the world and changes everyone's memories through Professor X. 

Some people remember the real world, and others are reminded what the real world is. Revived characters see through the illusion, because it's an illusion, but they're confused because it doesn't jive with what they remember. Other characters interact with the illusion until they discover that it's an illusion. 

The Scarlet Witch freaks out again and resets the world, removing the illusion. 

Now, that's not an alternate reality, or another world, it's an illusion. She didn't magically de-age everyone on the planet so they could re-live the last thirty years, she didn't reverse time, and she didn't actually revive anyone. Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy, & Doug Ramsey all vanished with the illusion. Hawkeye was revealed to be stored away or something during Chaos,(by the Scarlet Witch) and he reappeared during HoM. Illiana was probably pulled from Limbo, and given HoM memories like everyone else. 

Since everyone interacted with the illusion, but didn't age noticeably once it was over, the only explanation is that the older memories didn't happen; they were false memories. We found a way to make some of Wolverine's FlashBacks fit, the more recent ones in Mexico, and the Spider-Man mini, but the Avengers mini spans years and doesn't end anywhere near HoM Proper. It falls outside the scope of what 'really' happened and is therefore false memories.(Misty is going to go to Wakanda in HoM: A 5 and has already been there a while in the BP4 issues) 

So there you go. Stacked up against the HoM crossover, HoM: A didn't happen. And it says in the FAQ what we do with appearances that didn't happen.

-Daron Jensen

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Mar 01, 2008 10:10 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
And it says in the FAQ what we do with appearances that didn't happen.
<<<

Indeed.

And guess what book's now appeared on the FAQ non-canon list....

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Mar 02, 2008 8:33 am 
By Jason Doty

Could we at least put a small anotation beside it on the non-canon list, like some of the series, (like Transformers) saying it's outside time parameters of main story or something. It will be the only House Of M book that was not made able to work in some form for the project.

			*	*	*

Mar 02, 2008 12:52 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

That notation was added to Transformers because, over the years, fifty different people had posted here, asking why wasn't Spider-Man's appearance in Transformers in the Project. If fifty people ask about House of M: Avengers, we'll probably do the same thing there.


watching: uca national dance team championships

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Thread 3

Subject: X-Men First Class v2 #5

Oct 20, 2007 12:35 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Well, if we're not meant to reuse threads... 

Preview: http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/ ... i?id=12161 

Two very obvious clues: 
1) The X-Men obviously have at best a vague idea who Hulk is. 
2) This is the early, Fixit-like, pre-"Hulk no use pronouns" Hulk, which places it some time between IH #4 and Avengers #5 in all likelihood, probably tending toward pre-Avengers #1 (both because of the personality - which gets less Fixit-like with every appearance post-IH6 - and because the X-Men know who Iron Man's talking about when Iron Man drops in to ask them if they've seen him in Avengers #3).

			*	*	*

Oct 20, 2007 10:52 pm 
By wolframbane

Some observations on the early X-Men's encounters with the Hulk. 

In XFC2 5, Warren says 'X's government pal Agent Duncan asked if he can help the cause'. This may be a result of Charles' government meeting with Duncan mentioned in XFC2 3, placing this issue after XFC2 3-4. 

The X-Men were aware of the Hulk in A 3, but never encountered him. 

The encounter between the Hulk and the X-Men in Rampaging Hulk #2 (1977) was revealed in H2 269 to be fabricated stories by Bereet to entertain Krylorians. 

The events of UX 66 were the 'apparent' first encounter between the X-Men and the Hulk, but XFC2 5 appears as the first encounter as well. I would likely place XFC2 5 before UX 66 (mainly because UX 66 is the end of the silver age series). 

The specific reference to this being their 'first' in UX 66 is Angel stating 'even from the pictures I've seen, I never would have imagined he looked so large, so powerful'. Although this could simply mean that the Hulk looks even more powerful than their prior encounter and from pictures he has seen subsequently. 

Beast mentions 'the Hulk, a green-skinned gargoyle he (Professor X) never encountered'. As yet, Prof X has not met the Hulk before. The did, however, meet 'years ago' when Charles and Bruce corresponded on a gamma powered medical device, as mentioned in UX 66.

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Oct 20, 2007 11:28 pm 
By Somebody
Director

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
In XFC2 5, Warren says 'X's government pal Agent Duncan asked if he can help the cause'. This may be a result of Charles' government meeting with Duncan mentioned in XFC2 3, placing this issue after XFC2 3-4.
<<<

Based on the Hulk, this might well be the earliest FC issue to date. The degradation of his personality from "Banner" to "Fixit" to "Savage" is surprisingly consistent, when you consider Stan Lee's memory and the fact that the Hulk didn't have his own series for a while in the middle (which later gets two reruns - one over an accelerated [48-hour+teleport to Italy+teleport to outer space+back] period in TTA 70-78 or thereabouts, and once from IH 272-297 via Secret Wars). 

Here he's being written as he was the end of his original solo series. By the time the Hulk leaves the Avengers, he's lost the Fixit-esque sniping, and by FF 26/Avengers #5, it's only really the use of the first person and the odd dropped word ending that's distinguishing him from Savage ("Hulk Smash").

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Oct 21, 2007 1:25 pm 
By metaldragon

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
Beast mentions 'the Hulk, a green-skinned gargoyle he (Professor X) never encountered'. As yet, Prof X has not met the Hulk before. The did, however, meet 'years ago' when Charles and Bruce corresponded on a gamma powered medical device, as mentioned in UX 66.
<<<

Yes, we're told that Banner and Xavier met 'years ago' (before Banner first became the Hulk) but Xavier probably didn't know the Hulk was actually Banner until sometime later. It will be interesting if this issue is the point where Xavier finds out! Lets see if Professor X actually meets the Hulk face to face in person here. If he doesn't and it's only the rest of the X-Men, Beast's dialogue can still stand. If he does, then there goes some more original continuity out of the window. 

"May the Light shine forever!"

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Oct 21, 2007 10:58 pm 
By wolframbane

I am not 100% sure, but I think by UX 66, Banner's identity as the Hulk was public knowledge.

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Oct 21, 2007 11:10 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Tales to Astonish #77 (well, that's when Glenn Talbot finds out, and it filters around the army over the following couple of issues. I forget when it gets public-public, but I'm fairly sure it's pretty soon after).

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Oct 29, 2007 1:04 am 
By wolframbane

This story seems to occur before the military was aware that Hulk was Bruce Banner. This would place it before TOS 77/2, which is August of Year 4 according to the OMITTA. UX 19-24, according to OMITTX, also occurs during this month. So it probably occurs before UX 24 at least. 

Any Hulk experts out there that can help us narrow it down. Hulk was in Colorado at the time, and had Rick jones watching out for him.

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Oct 29, 2007 12:01 pm 
By Somebody
Director

wolframbane wrote:
Any Hulk experts out there that can help us narrow it down. Hulk was in Colorado at the time, and had Rick jones watching out for him.
The location's secondary. The best place for it, solely from a Hulk perspective, is between Incredible Hulk #6 and Avengers #1, for three reasons: 

1) The Hulk personality. This is a big one, since most of the Hulk's dialogue is written to match the tail-end of his own series. By the time of him joining the Avengers, he's mostly lost what will much later become the Fixit (late Milgrom/PAD Grey Hulk) ("Cowards", "You Punks", (in response to Cyclops blasting him, rubbing his chin thoughtfully and going) "Not Bad"), "a little girl is all you've got left", etc), and by the time he leaves in A #2, it's gone. 
2) The autochange. In Incredible Hulk v1, after the day/night changes have ended, he always changes using Banner's gamma ray machine. In the first two Avengers issues, we never see him change (or as Banner at all) and don't know if he does or how it's triggered (we are not, however, told that he doesn't change or requires something else to do so). 
3) Rick's still his sidekick in IH #6, and is at least looking out for him in A #1. There's no direct link between the two issues, but an unspecified amount of time. 

For the X-Men however, this yields a VERY early spot, since this is pre-UX #1 in publication order, and probably looking at trying to put it between UX #2 and UX #3, possibly even between UX #1 and UX #2. 

The only possible alternative is between Fantastic Four #26 and Avengers #5, where we know Banner's changing to and from the Hulk (after Rick Jones used a "gamma ray pill" to cut the Hulk down in mid-rampage in FF 26 by forcing a change to Banner), and Banner somehow needs to get from NYC to the "Southwest". The reasons why this is a bad placement though are: 

a) THe Hulk personality. At this point, he's reverted to his "clich, bombastic, humourless villain" personality from Incredible Hulk #2. 
b) Rick is with Captain America & his Teen Brigade (in NYC) in this period, not the Hulk - Cap walks away with him after the FF #26 fight at the start of A #5 (one leads closely into the other), and next time they're seen, Cap's giving an acrobatic display for Rick and the Teen Brigade. 
c) Cyclops mentions that the Hulk's stomping ground is the "desert. It's unlikely he's come this far north." If this is pre-A #1, that's completely true. If it's later, he's just had a very public rampage around NYC, shortly after being an Avenger (also in NYC) for a short while. 
d) In Avengers #3, the X-Men seem familiar with the Hulk. In X:FC2 5, they appear to have only the vaguest idea of who he is. 

EDIT: typo.

Last edited by Somebody on Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

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Oct 29, 2007 6:17 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote: 
>>>
The location's secondary. The best place for it, solely from a Hulk perspective, is between Incredible Hulk #6 and Avengers #1, for three reasons...For the X-Men however, this yields a VERY early spot, since this is pre-UX #1 in publication order, and probably looking at trying to put it between UX #2 and UX #3, possibly even between UX #1 and UX #2. 
<<<

Placement between H 6 and A 1 is very problematic, as that would mean it occurs before Beast even joins the X-Men. (See the Indexes and Marvel Saga for a sense of overall chronology.) 

Placement between UX 1 and 2 would mean placement during a gap between A 1 and 2. There don't seem to be any substantial problems with Hulk's personality, autochange, or Rick's presence if placement is here. Somebody states that the Fixit personality is gone by the end of A 2, so having it here doesn't contradict that. Somebody states that in A 1-3 we never see the trigger for Hulk's change, so nothing there contradicts X:FC2 5. Rick stops looking after Hulk after Hulk's departure from the Avengers at the end of A 2. So no conflict there. 

So how about placement in October of Peter Parker's senior year of high school, several weeks after the early September formation of the Avengers and mere days after the X-Men's defeat of Magneto? 

Hulk would be here between AVENGERS #280-FB (6:4-7:4) and IRON MAN: THE IRON AGE #2 (7-13). 

The X-Men would be here between Jean's diary entry was written in X-MEN: THE WEDDING ALBUM (12) and, I guess, X:FC 1-FB-FB (13:2-13:6) if not UX 2 (in November). 

Any way that wouldn't work?

Paul B.

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Oct 29, 2007 8:25 pm 
By Somebody
Director

No, I said we don't see him change in #1-2 ;. In #3, he uses the gamma-machine (with Rick's help)... but there are ALSO two autochanges following that - one Banner-->Hulk, and one the other way. 

One thing I DID skim over though, and I only noticed after getting round to checking Avengers #1 just there, is that the Hulk was pardoned in IH 6 (as a result of the Metal Master incident). This still holds as of A 1 (where an army major* comes to the Avengers, Hulk included, for help), and that should presumably still hold for A 2... 

*Yes, the army major is being impersonated by a Doombot, but its' shown to be in contact with the real army.

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Oct 30, 2007 6:54 am 
By wolframbane

Bobby uses his icy form in the issue. This would place it post UX 8.

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Nov 11, 2007 1:14 am 
By metaldragon

Since Professor X is in it, that means after UX 9 as well.

"May the Light shine forever!"

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Nov 11, 2007 1:43 am 
By Somebody
Director

There's absolutely no way it can be that late for the Hulk. Given that he's miscoloured anyway (far too grey for the period), I would write Bobby's icyness off as an art glitch...

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Nov 12, 2007 2:01 am 
By wolframbane

Another possible placement for the issue. In XFC2 2, Charles is gone to Washington for a meeting with Agent Duncan from which he returns at the end of the issue. In XFC2 5, Charles is working with the goverment after Duncan asked him to. Maybe the Hulk hunt in XFC2 5 was what Charle was in Washington for in XFC2 2. Placing XFC 5 shortly before XFC2 2-3.

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Nov 12, 2007 4:16 am 
By Somebody

Again, too late for the Hulk. His depiction here brickwalls it into the VERY early days.

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Mar 03, 2008 2:01 am 
By wolframbane

Right now we seem to have XFCs 5/2 occur right after XFC2 5/1.
...
UX 2 
X:FC2 5 
X:FC2 5/2 
UX 3 
...

XFC2 5/2 seems to be a Halloween story. Although the word Halloween was never expressly used, they were using a ouiji board. And note the jack o'lantern in panel 1, but it is not directly connected to the story as it was simply the title card. If it occurred on Halloween, it would have to be October 31 of between Year 3-5 (according to the Marvel Index/Calendar). Either between:

YEAR 3: Between UX 1 (late Oct) and UX 2 (Nov)
YEAR 4: Between UX (Oct) and UX 27 (Nov)
YEAR 5: After UX 66 (late Oct), sometime during early run of X:HY (Oct-Nov)

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Mar 03, 2008 3:11 am 
By metaldragon

Year 5 is unlikely. Seems out of character for Professor X as he's written in that period. Also very tightly plotted storylines following UX 66 with Iceman leaving in the first couple of issues of X:HY and Havok & Polaris are on the team.
Year 4 is a bit awkward. Jean is in Metro College at that point. UX 27 is the issue that the Mimic joins the team and continuity is a bit tight there between UX 26 & 27.
I like the idea that this story takes place between UX 1 & 2. They don't immediately think Jean might be using her powers on the Ouija board which they might have done a year or two later. Plus I get the idea that they are still getting used to the mansion and each other's powers in this story. Also shows more of Professor X's dark sense of humor from that period, (Hullo! Pretending to have lost his powers and sending them to deal with the Brotherhood without his help in UX 5 anyone?  ) giving a great spooky edge to the ending. 

"May the Light shine forever!"

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Thread 4

Subject: Character names

Mar 04, 2008 5:47 pm 
By Arthur
Director

some full real names to add to character listings (All have primary source page:panel references):

ANGKOR ...BROTHER THOMMANON (WM2 10 (11:3))

ARCHITECT II/ ...ORVILLE NUGENT (PUN@ 7 (55:4))

ASP II/CLEO ...CLEO NEFERTITI (CA 385/2 (1:1))

BARON BRIMSTONE ...WALTHER THEODORIC (A 251 12:3))

BELLADONNA ...NARDA RAVANNA (PPTSS 48(14:1))

BLACK LAMA ...KING JERALD (IM 80 (5:2))

BLACK MORAY ...LEON McKENZIE (N 56 (11:1))

BLAZING SKULL II ...JIM SCULLY (M/TIO 35 (4:2))

BLOODBATH ...MORDECHAI KOVAX (MSU 2 (17))

BLOODSTAIN ...MIKE WALKER (USA 3 (17:3))

BOVA ...BOVA AYRSHIRE (A 381 (10:1))

BRASS BISHOP II/ ...BENEDICTO DE VICA SEVERTES (AF2 16 (2:2))

BROTHER BRIMSTONE II/ ...VINCE STERLING (DD 66 (19:5))

BULLET BIKER ...DILLON ZARRO (SOLOA 13 (10:4))

BYRRAH/ [ATLANTEAN] ...BYRRAH THAKORRSON (N 35 (5:1))

CADUCEUS ...MARK CADMON (PPTSS@ 8/3 (3:2))

CAPTAIN FATE ...JEBEDIAH FATE (M-T2 8 (1))

CAPTAIN OMEN ...NATHANIEL OMEN (H2 164 (8:1)

CHAKA KHAN ...ROBERT HAO (PM&IF 72 (4:1))

CHAKA KHAN II ...THOMAS ARN (PM&IF 72 (21:6))

CHEETAH ...ESTEBAN CARRACUS (CM 48 (4:7))

CHONDU ...HARVEY SCHLEMERMAN (DEF 32 (4:6))

COLDBLOOD/ERIC ...ERIC SAVIN (M/CP 30/3 (4:6))

COLLECTIVE MAN ...LIN, SUN, HAN, HO and CHANG TAO-YU (M/CP 55/4 (4:2, 4:6))

CRIME-BUSTER/ ...EUGENE P. MASON (PM&IF 105 (1:1))

CRITICAL MASS ...ARNIE GUNDERSON (M/CP 49 (6:2))

CROSSFIRE ...WILLIAM CROSS (M/TIO 52 (11:3))

CRYSTAL [INHUMAN] ...CRYSTAL AMAQUELIN (A@22 (2))

CUDA ...STUART SARRIS (DH 34 (8:4))

CYLLA II ...CYLLA MARKHAM (UX 269 (7:2) and (6:3))

DARK RAIDER ...REED RICHARDS - Alternate Earth (FF 392 (21:4))

DEAD RINGER/LOU ...LOU (CA 426 (3:1)) DEXTER (CA 428 (4:1))

DEADLY ERNEST ...ERNEST ST. IVES (AF 7 (6:4))

DEATH ADDER ...ROLAND BURROUGHS (CA 426 (1:1))

DEATHTOLL ...SAINT VAN SANT (WARM 5 (1:1))

DIGGER ...RODERICK KRUPP (WCA2 40 (3:5))

DISCUS ...TIM STUART (PM&IF 110 (4:4)) 

DOCTOR FAUSTUS ...JOHANN FENNHOFF (M/TU 133 (4:2))

EDEV ...LORD EVED (MICRO2 15 (5:1))

EL AGUILA ...ALEJANDRO MONTOYA (M/CP 9/4 (1:1))

EMBER ...PAVEL CHENKLO (FW 5 (12: 6))

ERIC THE RED [SHI'AR] ...DAVAN SHAKARI (UX 105 (13:1))

EVERY-MAN ...LARRY EKLER (M/TU 133 (2:5))

FIREFOX ...GRIGORI ANDREIVITCH (SSS 1 (8:6))

FLY ...RICK DEACON (ASM@ 10 (16:5))

FORTUNE, DOMINIC ...DAVID J. FORTUNOV (IM 212 (4:1, 4:6))

GILDED LILY ...LILLIAN VON LOONT (AF 20 (21:6))

GOLDBUG ...JACK SMITH (PM 41 (8:7))

GOLDDIGGER ...ANGELA GOLDEN (CA 428 (17:2))

GRASP ...HERB BANNION (FF 342 (9:7))

GUARDIAN IV ...PETER PARKER (CLONE) (ASM 399 (19:2))

GYPSY MOTH ...SYBIL DVORAK (S-W 48 (17:4)) 

KILLER B ...ANTON BIGELOW (PWJ 54 (9:1)

KLINE, MR. ...MK-9 (DD 81 (11:4))

LAWNMOWER ...HIRO SUGIYAMA (SUPSOL 7 (5:3))

LAZARUS II ...GARCIA Y VEGA (M/CP 157/4 (2:2))

MEGATAK ...GREGORY NETTLES (T 328 (10:2)

MIDNIGHT SLASHER ...GARCIA Y VEGA (M/CP 157/4 (2:2))

MINDSINGER/GREGOR ...GREGOR BUHKAROV (PPTSS@ 8/3 (4:2))

MODAM ...OLINKA BARANKOVA (IM 297 (2/3)) ** believed by Omega Red, denied by Modam, but who (besides DD) doesn't deny their ID when confronted?

MONSTER-MASTER ...TORU TARAKATO (IM 30 (9:6))

NIGHTSHADE/TILDA ...TILDA JOHNSON (PM&IF 110 (5:1))

NIMROD II ..."NICHOLAS HUNTER" (UX 246 (17:1))

NOVA 0:0 ...ROBBIE RIDER [Not EARTH-616] (NO2 16 (23:7))

PAIN/HEMINGWAY ...EUGENE STONE (M/CP 103/3 (1:1)). I'm don't follow how the PAIN of M/CP 103/3 and 104/3, an assumed human transformed by Gorn into a thin-limbed 
reddish coloured creature, is the large and grey Gene Nation mutant HEMINGWAY. ???

PERUN ...VALERI SOVLOYEV (SSS 1 (55:3)

PETROVITCH, IVAN ...IVAN PETROVITCH BEZUKHOV (A 385 (3:2))

PINK PEARL/ ...PEARL GROSS (AF 22 (9:3))

POWER PRINCESS/ZARDA ...ZARDA SHELTON (Zarda is married (SQS 5 (15:4)) to Howard Shelton (SQS 1 (28:8))

PRESENCE/SERGEI ...SERGEI KRYLOV (Q 45 (4:1))

RANGER II ...JESUS SUAREZ (UX 261 (2/3))

RAPIER ...DOMINIC TYRONE (PPTSS@ 2 (22:4))

RAVEN ...PHILIP GRANT (IM 299 (10:4)) *** most of RAVEN'S listings are under GRANT, PHILIP. The one listing under RAVEN (IM 305) should be IM 305/2

RAZORBACK/ ...BUFORD HOLLIS (PPTSS 13 (4:5))

RED 9 ...WALLACE JACKSON (ASM 264 (22:2))

RED BULL ...TUPAC AMARU (A 371 (11:7))

SHOOTING STAR ...VICTORIA STAR (H2 265 (7:3))

SICKLE II/ ...NIKOLAI VRONSKY (MAV2 1 (2/3))

SILVER FOX II/ ...ZORA DE PLATA (W2 56 (17:5))

SIR ...MARTHA PATERSON (DD 348 (8:1))

SKEIN/ ...SYBIL DVORAK (S-W 48 (17:4)) 

SKEWER ...COMUS (C:DS (38:4))

SKULL ...JIM SCULLY (M/TIO 35 (4:2))

SLUGGO ...BERNARD HOYSTER (DPOOL 2 (8:3))

SLYDE ...JALOME BEACHER (ASM 272 (9:7)) *** Jalome in ASM 272 and in SPU 6/2 (17:6), but Jerome in WOSM 23 (14:1)

SPEAKEASY ...WALTER SLOCUM (DHOLD 5 (2/3:1))

SPHINX ...ANATH-NA MUT (NW 50 (30/31))

STEEPLEJACK ...JAKE MALLARD (PM 18 (9:4))

STILETTO ...TOM STUART (PM&IF 110 (4:4)) 

SUNSET GRACE ...GRACE LAVREAUX (X 35 (3:2))

TATTERDEMALION/ ...MICHAEL WYATT (DAZZ 36 (13:3))

VIPER II ...MERIEM DREW (S-W 44 (22:3))

WALRUS ...HUBERT CARPENTER (DEF 131 (3:2))

WARSTAR ...B'NEE and C'CLL (UX 137 (24:4))

ZEITGEIST/ ...LARRY EKLER (M/TU 133 (2:5))


a few with last names only:

COCKROACH/ ...HAMILTON (TER 6 (2:5))

COPPERHEAD II/ ...REYNOLDS (HFLY 9 (13:4))

DISTORTER ...DR. STORT (M/SH3 3/3 (2:9))

LOOP ...LASH (father of Brian Lash) (BCAT 3 (15:1, 19:3))

NEMESIS II ...ST. IVES (AF 31 (22: 6))

PIRANHA II/ ...JONES (PM 30 (8:12))

RASPUTIN ...PLOTNICK (C&D3 1 (16:3))

SCAVENGER ...NICOLLE (M-T 21 (12:3))

SMILING TIGER/ ...MACK (NW 23 (14:3))

STICKER ...FOXWORTH (SB 2 (2:6))


adding first names: 

COTTONMOUTH ...CORNELL COTTONMOUTH (PM 19 (8))

HEMLOCK ...JONATHAN HEMLOCK (M/PRM 44 (8:6))

HUMBUG/PROF. B. MITTY ...PROF. BUCK MITTY (WOSM 19 (10:4))

MAN-EATER/MURPHY ...MALCOLM MURPHY (SSWP 19/2 (4:4))

RANDOM ...JEREMIAH RANDOM (WCA2 46 (22:4)

SHAPER/FORD ...BARTON FORD (DH 42/2 (1:1))


first names only:

DIAMOND HEAD ...ROCKY THE LYNX (CA 126 (20:3))

STITCH/ ...JODI (AF SPECIAL (20:2))


I didn't try to deak with most spelling variants but these two seemed worthy of noting:

BROTHERS GRIMM II/BARTON & PERCY GRIMM ...BARTON & PERCY GRIMES (IM 187 (18:3, 18:5))

RED FOX/HUY ...NUY (CS 15 (8:1))


and the following two are just for completeness.. they are already in previous posts that haven't made it to update status yet
BOGEYMAN ...DOUGLAS M. CARMODY (PP 43 (4:7)) 

PLASMA/ ...LEILA O'TOOLE (M/CP 24/4 (6:3))

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Mar 04, 2008 8:08 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
PAIN/HEMINGWAY ...EUGENE STONE (M/CP 103/3 (1:1)). I'm don't follow how the PAIN of M/CP 103/3 and 104/3, an assumed human transformed by Gorn into a thin-limbed reddish coloured creature, is the large and grey Gene Nation mutant HEMINGWAY. ???
<<

He's not. They're two different characters.

Hemingway was known as Hemingway for every single appearance he ever made, except one panel in an issue of "Storm", where writer Warren Ellis had the Gene Nation characters spout off single-syllable names like "Pain", "Glass" and "Snow" that made no sense and have never been used again. Apparently Russ has taken those one-off words to be their codenames, and the other names to be their real names ... an assumption that works for a guy called "Hemingway", but doesn't work at all for the rest of the Gene Nationals who used names like Sack and Marrow.

In any event, "Pain" from M/CP #103 =/= Hemingway.

-Jeph!

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Mar 04, 2008 8:57 pm 
By Arthur
Director

in that case...

**PAIN/EUGENE STONE 
**M/CP 103/3 
**M/CP 104/3

*PAIN II/HEMINGWAY 
*M/CP 103/3 delete
*M/CP 104/3 delete
UX 322-BTS
GENX 5
GENX 6
UX 325
GENX 50
XM 50

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Mar 04, 2008 9:04 pm 
By Enda80

BLOODSTAIN ...MIKE WALKER (USA 3 (17:3))

Wrong. That was a bogus cover story that Bloodstain told John Walker (USAgent). Bloodstain told him that he was his brother to fool him into aiding them.

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Mar 04, 2008 9:18 pm 
By Enda80

VIPER II ...MERIEM DREW (S-W 44 (22:3))

Discredited in Cap#281-283, the Viper is not Spider-Woman's mother.

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Mar 04, 2008 9:29 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I'd just move Hemingway to "HEMINGWAY". Rusty Collins is located at "COLLINS, RUSTY", not "FIREFIST", after all.

And wasn't "Zora del Plata" a memory-implant alias, rather than Silver Fox's real name?

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Mar 04, 2008 10:40 pm 
By Mikhail

The Appendix calls Viper "Ophelia Sarkissian", though I don't know where that came from.

Zora del Plata is indeed an alias, like Wolverine's "Emilio Guerra" from the same mission.

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Mar 05, 2008 2:25 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Yeah, 'Silver Fox' is actually her real name, anyting else is an alias or planted memory.

-Daron Jensen

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Mar 05, 2008 11:21 am 
By metaldragon

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
BLOODSTAIN ...MIKE WALKER (USA 3 (17:3))

Wrong. That was a bogus cover story that Bloodstain told John Walker (USAgent). Bloodstain told him that he was his brother to fool him into aiding them.
<<<

I suppose that he not be related to USAgent at all but still have the name Mike Walker. Walker is a pretty common last name. It could still go in quotes as an alias until confirmed elsewhere then.

"May the Light shine forever!"

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Mar 06, 2008 11:13 am 
By Somebody
Director

Two ones referred to in Fury's Hawkeye v4 thread

BLACK WIDOW II/NATASHA ROMANOVA

Real name should be BLACK WIDOW II/NATALIA ALIANOVNA ROMANOVA/"NATASHA ROMANOFF" per Handbooks (her formal first name is getting some play for the the first time in a while (ever?) in Cap right now, since Bucky's always calling her by it

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN GRANT ROGERS

Again, the Handbooks are insisting that his name is "Steven Rogers" and the "Grant" is a memory-implant thing (from the Roger Stern run?)

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Mar 06, 2008 1:38 pm 
By dimadick

The Appendix calls Viper "Ophelia Sarkissian", though I don't know where that came from.

In Iron Man Annual #1, page 3 (January, 2008): Iron Man is profiling Madame Hydra and mentions "Other aliases include The Viper, Leona Hiss, Merriem Drew, and Ophelia Sarkissian, which just might be her real name."

I have no idea if Christos Gage was referencing an older story or this is a new reference.

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Mar 06, 2008 2:09 pm 
By loki

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Two ones referred to in Fury's Hawkeye v4 thread
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN GRANT ROGERS

Again, the Handbooks are insisting that his name is "Steven Rogers" and the "Grant" is a memory-implant thing (from the Roger Stern run?)
<<<

Yes, as per Captain America #247 (Jul. 1980), where it was explicitly stated by Cap that he didn't have a middle name and that Grant was from a memory-implant in case he ever got captured by the Nazis.

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Thread 5

Subject: Secret Invasion Saga

Mar 07, 2008 8:07 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

SECRET INVASION SAGA opens the can of worms we've touched upon concerning the timing of the revelation of the Skrull invasion. So far, we've placed that revelation (from MA 7) right after the Mighty Avengers' supposed first mission (bah) in MA 1-6, because of Stark's hospitalization. Sometime after that, we have World War Hulk, during which Atlantis presumably still exists (although not seen directly). After that comes SUBM3 and the destruction of Atlantis. And after that comes NA:I@ 5, in which the loss of Atlantis is referenced. Months must separate the Skrull revelation and Stark's gathering of the Illuminati to discuss it...right?

Wrong. Stark's narrative in SECRET INASION SAGA refers to Spider-Woman's Elektra Skrull delivery as having occurred "last night." And he refers to the events of NA:I2 5 as having already happened (presumably earlier in the day)! Aside from the contradiction this presents to the sequence above, it also means that NA:I2 5 and SIS would occur the same day as A4 34 (page 8) through A4 37 (page 18) and MA 7 (page 7) through MA 8 (page 20), the day of the symbiote battle in Manhattan. Yikes!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 07, 2008 8:30 am 
By Ross

Maybe, for clarification, we should ask the book's Research Assistant, a certain Jeph York?

(Nice job on this, BTW! I thoroughly enjoyed it.)

			*	*	*

Mar 07, 2008 8:56 am 
By Somebody
Director

Given that Stark has a $%^&ing healing factor these days, and the whole OMD steaming pile, is there any alternative to pretending SISAGA's references don't exist?

			*	*	*

Mar 07, 2008 10:33 am 
By JD

On another note...

SIS references some of the recent She-Hulk issues.... which are supposed to happen months after WWH ! When the $%? is WWH supposed to happen ?

			*	*	*

Mar 07, 2008 10:57 am 
By Somebody
Director

WWH must happen after the New Avengers return from Japan via. Shultron crash, because both Echo and Hawkeye/Ronin appear in WWH.

Spider-Man's in his black costume in WWH, so before OMD.

[Calendar-only] It must happen loadsa time before current issues of Initiative, because Ant-Man spends a month in a coma from some pretty severe Hulk-caused injuries THEN gets his insides ripped apart when he's still far from fully healed, THEN spends "Much time" healing until he's mostly healed ("just kinda sore").

Right now? I'd slice it into the earliest possible moment, and knock whatever holes into various Bendis books that there need to be. Although the X-Books may or may not make that tricky for Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 07, 2008 7:27 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
Maybe, for clarification, we should ask the book's Research Assistant, a certain Jeph York?
<<<

Eh. He sounds like a schlub. 

I actually was caught up in the "Maria Hill griping that Stark only gave her 36 hours to compile this data" / "Tony says good morning and claims the Skrull arrived last night" line, myself. I hadn't even noticed the "hey, Illuminati #5 has already occurred" conundrum...

I see an out, though. Tony says that "last night" was when it dawned on him that a Skrull infiltration had begun. He then goes on to say that Spider-Woman brought him the Elektra-Skrull's corpse. However, the two events aren't explicitly tied together ... he doesn't flat-out say that Spider-Woman brought him the corpse last night.

I propose that we simply re-interpret the "last night it dawned on me" line to refer to the events of Illuminati #5, and keep the current chronological arrangement theories that we've already built up. We could say that after months of pondering the Skrull corpse, it REALLY HIT HIM just exactly how dangerous the situation could be last night -- so he assigned Maria to mine for Skrull data (BTS), and then called an Illuminati meeting to reveal the problem to them. (We all know what happened then.)

I say this issue picks up right after the events of Illuminati #5 -- where, on the way home from the battle with the Skrulls, Tony calls Maria to get her report results.

Sound okay to everyone?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 07, 2008 7:53 pm 
By Somebody
Director

[Kryten] It's the lesser of two evils sirs - in the absence of a sane plan, I suggest we go with Mr York's [/Kryten]

			*	*	*

Mar 07, 2008 11:51 pm 
By jephyork
Director

You'd BETTER go with my plan -- I'm the @#$%^&* RESEARCH ASSISTANT.

-Jeph!, mad with power. POWER!!!

			*	*	*

Mar 08, 2008 12:19 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Good solution, Jeph! I like the separation of the "last night...it dawned on me" from the "Spider-Woman brought me..."

It occurs to me that I need to place the continuous arc of MSM2 from issue 18 on to a point after Secret Invasion Saga. In MSM2 18, Wonder Man notes that Stark is changing security codes, a reference understood to be to Stark's reaction about the Skrull invasion. In MSM2 24, Stark tells Sum about the Skrull infiltration and identifies a certain member of his Mighty Avengers as being a Skrull. In SIS, Stark says one of his teammates "is very likely a Skrull...no, definitely."

We already knew that NA:I2 5 occurs before Messiah Complex, but the later MSM2 18-24 must also occur before Messiah Complex, as the Xavier Institute is seen in this story arc.

So we have:
NA:I2 5
SIS
MSM2 18-24
Messiah Complex

CM6 2-3 should occur after SIS, since the Skrull attack in those issues comes as no surprise to Stark. Curiously, in that story, Ms. Marvel asks Mar-Vell to join the Avengers. Considering the surprises at the end of MSM2 24 and CM6 3, I wonder if the current CM6 arc should be placed during the "three days" between pages 20 and 21 of MSM2 24.

Theory:
After page 20 of MSM2 24, Carol is replaced by a Skrull who knows "Mar-Vell" is a Skrull even though "Mar-Vell" doesn't seem aware of his own true identity. Having taken the place of the Avengers' leader, the Ms. Marvel Skrull is trying to get more Skrulls on the team. Events in the current CM6 story arc lead to Stark's fingering of "Ms. Marvel" as a Skrull at the end of MSM2 24.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Subject: M/CP 141-174

Mar 06, 2008 1:26 pm 
By Arthur
Director

Marvel Comics Presents 141-174. (And yes I DO know that there is an M/CP 175, but I do not have a copy so it was not included. )

** new entry 
* adjustment needed 


ALHAZRED, ABDUL 
**M/CP 154 (6:2 - 6:9)-FB (first run-in with Wolverine)
*M/CP 62 should be M/CP 62-BTS. Alhazred does not appear but his henchmen are following his orders
*M/CP 63 should be M/CP 63-BTS. Alhazred does not appear but his henchmen are following his orders
**M/CP 153 (6:2)-FB givng instructions to henchmen
M/CP 152
M/CP 153


BUTTERFLY 
IM 309
WARM 8
IM 310
*M/CP 170/2 (1:2 - 5:?) regarding the '?': Page 5 is a single panel page so (1:2 - 5) or (1:2 - 5:1)
FW 6


CARPENTER, RACHEL 
M/CP 167/2
**M/CP 168/2
FW 8


DELUGE II
IM 309
IM 310
*M/CP 170/2 (1:2 - 5:?) regarding the '?': Page 5 is a single panel page so (1:2 - 5) or (1:2 - 5:1)
FW 6 (1 - 16:1)


**DUMAS, MR.
**M/CP 62
**M/CP 63
**M/CP 153 (6:2)-FB getting instructions from Alhazred 
**M/CP 152
**M/CP 153
**M/CP 154
**M/CP 155


ENDO, DR. SUZI 
**M/CP 170/2 (7:3 - 7:4)-FB meeting Tony Stark and showing him her designs
**M/CP 170/2 (5:4 - 6:1)-FB an hour before start of story - attack of Mandarin's Avatars begins
**M/CP 170/2 (7:1 - 7:2)-FB immediately after the attack, amidst ruined lab
M/CP 170/2 
IM 312


FOUNDRY II 
IM 309
IM 310
*M/CP 170/2 (1:2 - 5:?) regarding the '?': Page 5 is a single panel page so (1:2 - 5) or (1:2 - 5:1)
FW 6 (1-15)


FU MANCHU 
MOKF 48-FB
**M/CP 158/4 (4:6-5:6)-FB
MOKF 100-FB


GIANT-MAN/HANK PYM 
AWC 102
*M/CP 151/2 should read M/CP 152/2
STARBLAST 1


HARD BOILED HENWY
*M/CP 174/4 I'm not seeing Henwy in this issue
XCAL 42


INAZUMA 
M/CP 142/3
*M/CP 147/4 should read M/CP 147/2


IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK
IM 257
**M/CP 170/2 (7:3 - 7:4)-FB meeting Suzi Endo and seeing her designs at SE Hong Kong. Not much to go on re placement. I opted for after IM 257 as he is in the Pacific Rim on business with Rhodey (and his private jet) which would seem like a good time to visit SE Hong Kong. (In IM 241 Tony and Rhodey are in Hong Kong "to set up a branch of Stark Enterprises" (IM 241 5:5) so I figure it should be a little after that.)
A 326


KAMINARI 
M/CP 142/3
*M/CP 147/4 should read M/CP 147/2


KAZE 
M/CP 142/3
*M/CP 147/4 should read M/CP 147/2


KNIGHT, MISTY 
M/CP 149/3
**M/CP 155/4
ASMU 13


LICH
WARM 8
*M/CP 170/2 (1:2 - 5:?) regarding the '?': Page 5 is a single panel page so (1:2 - 5) or (1:2 - 5:1)
FW 6 (1 - 18:3)


Q'WAKE/QUAKE 
IM 309
WARM 8
**M/CP 170/2 (2:4 - 3:1)-FB beginning of attack
*M/CP 170/2 (1:2 - 5:?) regarding the '?': Page 5 is a single panel page so (1:2 - 5) or (1:2 - 5:1)
FW 6 (14/15:2 - 18:3)


**RHYS, MR.
**M/CP 62
**M/CP 63
**M/CP 153 (6:2)-FB getting instructions from Alhazred 
**M/CP 152
**M/CP 153
**M/CP 154
**M/CP 155


**SCARFACE
**M/CP 62
**M/CP 63
**M/CP 153 (6:2)-FB getting instructions from Alhazred 
**M/CP 152
**M/CP 153
**M/CP 154
**M/CP 155


**SHEIK/CHIEF (called SHIEK in M/CP 62, M/CP 63 and M/CP 152; called CHIEF in M/CP 153 and M/CP 154)
**M/CP 62
**M/CP 63
**M/CP 153 (6:2)-FB getting instructions from Alhazred 
**M/CP 152
**M/CP 153
**M/CP 154
**M/CP 155


**STUMP
**M/CP 62
**M/CP 63
**M/CP 153 (6:2)-FB getting instructions from Alhazred 
**M/CP 152
**M/CP 153
**M/CP 154
**M/CP 155


VENGEANCE/MICHAEL BADILINO 
M/CP 159/3
**M/CP 161/3 (5:4)-FB
M/CP 160/3
M/CP 161/3


WOLVERINE/"LOGAN"/JAMES HOWLETT 
W2 113-FB
**M/CP 154 (6:2 - 6:9)-FB. Wolverine's first run-in with Abdul Alhazred. 
W2 126-FB
UX 213-FB



As far as I can tell, every issue from 1-173 that flips, has the story order: indicia side outer story #1, the immediate following #2, then flip over.. the outer story from that side is #3 and the final inner story #4. 

But M/CP 174 has them in a different order (non-indicia side outer story #1, story following #2, Indicia cover outer story #3 and the following inner story #4). If we want to list in the same order as the other issues the following adjustments need to be made:

BODYBAG: M/CP 174/4 ==> M/CP 174/2
BRANNEX, ALLESSANDRO: M/CP 174/2 ==> M/CP 174/4
BRANNEX, SOLEMNE: M/CP 174/2 ==> M/CP 174/4
BUCHANAN, SAMSON: M/CP 174/3 ==> M/CP 174
CHINA DOLL: M/CP 174/4 ==> M/CP 174/2
CLEMSON, MIKE: M/CP 174/3 ==> M/CP 174
DEVIL DINOSAUR: M/CP 174/4 ==> M/CP 174/2
DIABOLIQUE II/DIANA BOLICK: M/CP 174/3 ==> M/CP 174
DOC SAMSON/DR. LEONARD SAMSON: M/CP 174/3 ==> M/CP 174
FERRO2: M/CP 174/4 ==> M/CP 174/2
FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH: M/CP 174/2 ==> M/CP 174/4
GATECRASHER: M/CP 174/4 ==> M/CP 174/2
JOYBOY: M/CP 174/4 ==> M/CP 174/2
LOCKHEED: M/CP 174/4 ==> M/CP 174/2
LUNATIK II: M/CP 174 ==> M/CP 174/3
MOONBOY: M/CP 174/4 ==> M/CP 174/2
NUMBERS: M/CP 174/4 ==> M/CP 174/2
REVEREND NICE/NABISCO NICEIZA: M/CP 174/3 ==> M/CP 174
RINGTOSS: M/CP 174/4 ==> M/CP 174/2
SATURNYNE, OPAL LUNA: M/CP 174/4-BTS ==> M/CP 174/2-BTS
SCATTERBRAIN: M/CP 174/44 ==> M/CP 174/2
SHADOWCAT/KATHERINE "KITTY" PRYDE: M/CP 174/4 ==> M/CP 174/2
SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD: M/CP 174 ==> M/CP 174/3
SKREET: M/CP 174 ==> M/CP 174/3
THUG: M/CP 174/4 ==> M/CP 174/2
UNO/: M/CP 174/3 ==> M/CP 174
VENGEANCE/MICHAEL BADILINO: M/CP 174/3 ==> M/CP 174
WAXWORKS: M/CP 174/4 ==> M/CP 174/2
YAP: M/CP 174/4 ==> M/CP 174/2

			*	*	*

Mar 06, 2008 5:44 pm 
By Enda80

Don't forget Alhazred's Tarzan appearances.

			*	*	*

Mar 07, 2008 1:55 pm 
By wolframbane

Thats right. Mystic Arcana Handbook brings these stories into continuity.


ALHAZRED, ABDUL 
TARZAN 22-FB
TARZAN 15
TARZAN 16
TARZAN 17
TARZAN 18
TARZAN 19
TARZAN 20
TARZAN 21
TARZAN 22
TARZAN 23
M/CP 154 (6:2 - 6:9)-FB
M/CP 62 should be M/CP 62-BTS 
M/CP 63 should be M/CP 63-BTS 
M/CP 153 (6:2)-FB 
M/CP 152
M/CP 153

			*	*	*

Mar 07, 2008 2:24 pm 
By ShadZ

Should Tarzan be added to the Checklist?

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Mar 07, 2008 10:42 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Ummm...well, the Godzilla title made it into the MCP...I'd like to know a bit more about this Tarzan title though: are the stories featuring Tarzan set in the modern day, (ala Kazar) or in the past?

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Mar 07, 2008 11:05 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
Ummm...well, the Godzilla title made it into the MCP...
<<<

Same deal as Micronauts though - very firmly set in the MU, with the Avengers guest-starring, etc

			*	*	*

Mar 08, 2008 2:21 am 
By ShadZ

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
I'd like to know a bit more about this Tarzan title though: are the stories featuring Tarzan set in the modern day, (ala Kazar) or in the past?
<<<

They were in the past -- the 1920's or 30's (based on my dim recollection of the storyline where Tarzan came to New York City). Reading them, there was no hint that they might be cannon -- I was quite surprised to see the title referenced in the Mystic Arcana handbook...

ShadZ

			*	*	*

Mar 08, 2008 3:46 pm 
By wolframbane

ShadZ wrote:
>>>
Should Tarzan be added to the Checklist?
<<<

I think so. I wondering ol' Tarzan is public domain now?

			*	*	*

Mar 08, 2008 6:19 pm 
By Enda80

Is Tarzan public domain? 

Well, the European Union turned down the ERB estate's trademark claim to the Tarzan yell sound effect, and wikipedia categorizes Jane Clayton (Jane Porter) as public domain, but I doubt it. After all, Zorro is roughly as old as Tarzan, and Zorro is not public domain. Even older, Sherlock Holmes is not completely public domain (or at least he wasn't till 2001; Loren D. Estleman notes this in his article in the book Shadows Over Baker Street).

Some of the movies and novels about Tarzan are probably public domain (as are some of the John Carter books), but then many of the Ralph Byrd Dick Tracy films and the theatrical Superman cartoons of the 1940's are public domain (so they show up on archive.org), but the Chicago Herald-Tribune Syndicate and DC Comics still maintain their trademark to these characters. (Sorry, I couldn't think of any Timely characters to use as an example; the only adaptation of a Timely character in the 1940's was the Captain America serial.) 

http://www.tarzan.com/

Does not really matter, though, as Godzilla, Fu Manchu, Conan, etc. aren't public domains.

			*	*	*

Mar 08, 2008 7:35 pm 
By SeanCurtin

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
I wondering ol' Tarzan is public domain now?
<<<

From Wikipedia:
>>>
Even though the copyright on Tarzan of the Apes [the book, not the character] has expired in the United States of America, the name Tarzan is still protected as a trademark of Edgar Rice Burroughs, Inc. Also, the work remains under copyright in some other countries where copyright terms are longer.
<<<

			*	*	*

Mar 08, 2008 9:59 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Well, along the same lines, Abdul Alhazred - isn't that the writer of the Necronomicon from the writing's of H. P. Lovecraft? (which isn't public domain either, I believe). And yet the character appeared in Marvel Comics Presents...(I don't have the stories in question, that's why I'm perplexed).

At any rate, could someone please provide a list of every single Tarzan comic published by Marvel? 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Same deal as Micronauts though - very firmly set in the MU, with the Avengers guest-starring, etc
<<<

Well, I guess the only question becomes whether the two characters, (the one in Tarzan and the one in the MCP) are intended to be the same character. But I don't think the link has to be that strong: let's take for example the "Conan" universe...The Stygian god Set's MCP listing: it has "Savage Sword of Conan" entries and entries in present day titles like Namor. Also, Ymir's MCP's entry gives an appearance for the Conan story from Savage Tales, and has his appearances in Thor. We have definite links between the Conan universe and the present day Marvel universe, and I now think there's enough linkage for the Tarzan universe to be added as a part of the MCP as well...

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Mar 09, 2008 2:30 am 
By jephyork
Director

In a universe with not one but two Ka-Zars, I think it's okay to assume that a Tarzan might have been around too. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 09, 2008 9:54 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
Well, along the same lines, Abdul Alhazred - isn't that the writer of the Necronomicon from the writing's of H. P. Lovecraft? (which isn't public domain either, I believe). And yet the character appeared in Marvel Comics Presents...(I don't have the stories in question, that's why I'm perplexed).
<<<

The trademark status of Lovecraft's creations is a little convoluted. At any rate, Lovecraft himself encouraged other writers, like Robert E. Howard, to use his creations. As far as I know, his estate hasn't had any problems with others using his creations.


Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
At any rate, could someone please provide a list of every single Tarzan comic published by Marvel?
<<<

TARZAN 1-29
TARZAN@ 1-3
M/SS 29 (reprinted as TARZAN OF THE APES 1-2)

Also, the first and only issue of the magazine-format Marvel Movie Premiere adapted Burroughs' The Land That Time Forgot.

And on a related subject, Marvel's Doc Savage comics are an even more firmly established part of the Marvel Universe, thanks to his appearances in M/TIO 21 and GSS-M 3. Marvel's Doc Savage comics:

DOC SAVAGE 1-8 (color)
DOC SAVAGE MAGAZINE 1-8 (black & white)
GIANT-SIZE DOC SAVAGE 1


Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
Well, I guess the only question becomes whether the two characters, (the one in Tarzan and the one in the MCP) are intended to be the same character.
<<<

According to the Mystic Arcana OHOTMU, the Tarzan Alhazred and the Wolverine Alhazred are the same character; unless there's some concrete evidence contradicting the OHOTMU, its claims are canonical.

			*	*	*

Mar 09, 2008 11:21 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

I've added all of the Tarzan and Doc Savage titles published by Marvel to the Checklist.

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Mar 10, 2008 3:39 am 
By Enda80

The first hint that Tarzan might be part of Earth-616 was in Tarzan#3, where the Atlantean descended La of Opar invoked Valka, who was also invoked by Zhered-Na in Adventures into Fear#15 (and in Kull stories).

			*	*	*

Thread 7 

Subject: Power Man 29

Mar 10, 2008 10:22 am 
By Arthur
Director

The MCP currently shows PM 29 between PM 28 and PM 30; however, PM 28 is a cliffhanger issue (Luke is chained to the bottom of a drawbridge) which due to deadline problems was continued in PM 30. So PM 29 cannot fall between PM 28 and PM 30. Luke is the only character affected.

suggested fix:

CAGE, LUKE/CARL LUCAS 
PM 27
*PM 29 (moved from between PM 28 and PM 30)
PM 28
PM 30

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT
Mar 02, 2008 6:08 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

The Gap is Closed.

			*	*	*

Mar 02, 2008 6:15 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Huzzah!!!! 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 02, 2008 6:48 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Wahhay!

[Now, how much of the main page & FAQ do you need to rewrite in light of this? ]

			*	*	*

Mar 02, 2008 8:58 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Totally Awesome. 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 02, 2008 9:14 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

As I mentioned on the Updates page, the credit goes to everyone here, but especially you, JLH and Dhall, in the most recent big push to get this thing done.


watching: harry potter and the prisoner of azkaban

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 2:05 pm 
By wolframbane

Administrator wrote:
>>>
The Gap is Closed. 
<<<

That is most unfortunate. I do all my clothes shopping there!! :P

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 8:13 pm 
By jephyork
Director

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j78/jephyork/applause.gif

			*	*	*

Mar 10, 2008 06:33 pm 
By frogcoin

hey congratulations to all who made this possible, thats just great 

			*	*	*

Thread 9

Subject: 2004 "Guardians" mini canon?

Mar 04, 2008 11:20 am 
By Somebody
Director

[Topic split from CFA:Missing Books in Issue Analysis because Admin asked me to.]

I could do Guardians, but I'm not sure that it's canon - it seems to be halfway between explicitly MU and explicitly not. People on Earth are claiming entirely sincerely that there's no such things as aliens, but She-Hulk gets referenced and there's a Shi'ar and a Skrull - but, back on the other hand, they're part of a long-standing (over 15 years) intergalatic "Alliance" (read: empire) - and one member of the Alliance (a species I don't recognise) recognises a human straight off, and claims that "Earth would be a crown jewel in the Alliance's empire", and another member of the Alliance claims "it's just like you humans to barge in and try and take whatever you want"

It doesn't seem to fit with the Marvel Cosmic landscape (since when have the Shi'ar and Skrull empires been merged along with loads of other races into a single Alliance for over fifteen years? And how can people be claiming there's no aliens with a straight face?), but there's just enough stuff (the presence of a Sh'iar and a Skrull to start with) to make me pause.

Last edited by Somebody on Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:43 pm, edited 2 times in total. 

Reason: Split from CFA at Admin's request 

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 1:24 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks folks!

I vaguely remember a discussion here about Guardians back when it finished up, and I remember it being on Paul B's Calendar Call list, and I remember him taking it off, but I can't find an analysis in the Archives. I'll have to do some digging tonight after work, but did we decide it was non-canon? I don't remember...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 1:49 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I've got all the Archives downloaded, and a program called "Windows Grep" that lets you search (& replace) multiple files and get not only the files with a word/phrase returned, but snippets of text around the hits for context, like the search function here, which makes finding stuff much easier (Especially in this case, where 90%+ of "Guardians" hits land on GotG threads...)

As far as I can see, there wasn't much discussion. There was a short thread in Archive 50 on the canoncity (while the series was still going on) that hung due to two of the points I mentioned above - recognisable aliens vs. steadfast "no such thing" beliefs. Kevin, there and in a briefer later bit in A54, was steadfastly insisting it was canon (although he admits in A55 that he didn't buy it, and just read it in the shop) based on the presence of Shi'ar & Skrulls. No-one seems to have noticed the Alliance part, where they're all in a single intergalactic empire.

			*	*	*

Mar 05, 2008 1:27 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

I distinctly remember that discussion and stand by my words: Humans in the Marvel universe not believing in aliens is like those who say the Holocaust didn't happen or that human beings didn't actually land on the moon. People will deny the obvious, if there beliefs compel them to do so.

And going off of memory alone: didn't the Shi'ar, the Skrull, and the Kree form an Alliance in the pages of the last volume of Peter David's "Captain Marvel"? I thought that the Shi'Ar, (while not outright rulers of the Kree and Skrulls) had a pretty firm command of the other empires at one time, (a few years before this whole "Emperor Vulcan" mess started)...

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Mar 05, 2008 2:20 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

A quick search for cover art confirms that 'Marvel Remix' is on the covers for Fantastic Four: Fireworks. Can anyone confirm that this is a retelling, like Jeph described? 

And Somebody, it sounds like we'll need an analysis of Guardians to see if it's canon or not.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 05, 2008 9:25 am 
By Somebody
Director

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
And going off of memory alone: didn't the Shi'ar, the Skrull, and the Kree form an Alliance in the pages of the last volume of Peter David's "Captain Marvel"? I thought that the Shi'Ar, (while not outright rulers of the Kree and Skrulls) had a pretty firm command of the other empires at one time, (a few years before this whole "Emperor Vulcan" mess started)...
<<<

That was (a) shortlived [formed after the Ruul's last appearance in CM3 25 or so, dissolved before Annihilation] and (b) included only the Sh'iar, Kree & Skrull.

This has (a) been going on for substantially more than 15 years and (b) includes umpteen and one hundred different species, with most of the commanders seemingly NOT Sh'iar or Skrull (no Kree are seen).

			*	*	*

Mar 05, 2008 8:01 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

The "15 years" reference can be dismissed as a mistaken "passage of time" reference. It's like when Peter Parker says he and MJ were married " just a couple years ago" when it has to have been several years...or, alternatively, maybe "15 years" is a different time frame in "galactic years", (maybe only 3 Earth months equals "15 Galactic years"...

Other than that, I've got nothing. *shrug*

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Mar 05, 2008 9:24 pm 
By Somebody
Director

None of which are tenable because the (human) leads are kids in the "Then" prologue, and adults in the "Now" main part of the series, and it's one of them who refers to the passage of time.

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Mar 06, 2008 12:25 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

I'd really have to see the analysis for the issues themselves, (or get a hold of the issues themselves) before commenting further. You've got good points, I'm just saying there may be different ways to interpret things...I can't imagine a mini-series not being canon if it has She-Hulk, and the Kree, Skrulls, and Shi'Ar in it, (unless it's a "The End" storyline, or some other clear "Elseworlds" type tale)...

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Thread 10

Subject: GR3 94/2

Mar 16, 2008 3:36 pm 
By Somebody
Director

GR3 94/2 is now included in the chronologies of everyone... except the leads (Dan Ketch, Ghost Rider III/Noble Kale).

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Subject: Walter "Old Man" Jameson

Mar 15, 2008 1:57 pm 
By wolframbane

Based on the conersation from the TWELVE threads, here is my review for the appearances of "Old Man" Jameson. Although J. Jonah Jameson was apparently seen a few times during WWII, he was shown as a young boy during or after this period during YA 1 and M/HS '04. I am assuming the WWII era Jameson was the "Old Man". Also, Spider-Man: Back In Black Handbook indicates that "Old Man" Jameson's real name is Walter.

Also, M/SH 394 (UK) implies the two Jamesons are different people, where Sadie refers to the Bugle in the early '40s.
"The Bugle never used to pay a hell of a lot back in those days. Not when old Jameson was running the show. What? No, not the Jameson who's editing the Bugle now. I'm talking about his father. He used to be a real tightwad. We never once got a check out of him on time." (quote from http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/jamesonoldman.htm )

JAMESON, WALTER "OLD MAN"
MARVELS 1 (Jameson works with Phil Sheldon)
CA 255-FB (Jameson almost photographs Captain America's face when his helmet is knocked off)
SGTF 110 (Jameson sends C. Thomas Sites overseas during WWII)

There is also a young man named Freddy in SGTF 110-FB. One might wonder if he is a young Frederick Foswell (Big Man)., but that would have to be his father or someone else entirely, for the same reasons listed above.

			*	*	*

Mar 15, 2008 2:55 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
One might wonder if he is a young Frederick Foswell (Big Man)., but that would have to be his father or someone else entirely, for the same reasons listed above.
<<<

Hmmmm..... Um, how old is Doris Sheldon?


watching: assault on precinct 13

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Mar 15, 2008 5:49 pm 
By Enda80

In the Night Raven story in Marvel Super-Heroes (UK)#394 (February 1983), Foswell is referred to as a friend of Scoop Daly and as having attended Scoop Daly's funeral.

The Sheldons' children in Marvels were shown as younger than John Jameson. Just figure in menopause.

			*	*	*

Mar 15, 2008 6:20 pm 
By wolframbane

Given that Phil and Dorsi were young adults during WWII, and that their kids were children during the modern age, we can assume that perhapps the Sheldons may look a bit younger than they are during the modern age, and it s possible their kids may actually by adopted or some such to account for the decades of age difference.

			*	*	*

Mar 15, 2008 9:49 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Sooooo.... How old is Doris Sheldon?


watching: biography

			*	*	*

Mar 16, 2008 1:20 pm 
By wolframbane

Assuming she was old enough to be engaged to Phil in 1939, we can assume a birthdate of circa 1921, by 2008, she would be about 87. Probably a youthful 87.

			*	*	*

Mar 16, 2008 1:41 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I believe the question may have been rhetorical

			*	*	*

Mar 16, 2008 2:31 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
Assuming she was old enough to be engaged to Phil in 1939, we can assume a birthdate of circa 1921, by 2008, she would be about 87. Probably a youthful 87.
<<<

So, you would postulate that she's in her late seventies, as of Marvels #2. Correct?


watching: mammoth

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Mar 16, 2008 2:33 pm 
By jephyork
Director

What are you getting at here, Russ? Other than "the sliding timescale does wacky things sometimes"?

-Jeph!

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Mar 16, 2008 2:42 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Refer to my quote of wolframbane's original message. There's no reason to think the character in Sgt. Fury is Frederick Foswell, if it's just a character named "Freddy." But there's no reason to support that it can't possibly be Foswell, either, if you're going to base your reasoning on the passage of years. 

Doris Sheldon was an adult in Marvels #1, and still spry enough to raise children in Marvels #2, which takes place right around the same time as Foswell's appearances as the Big Man in Amazing Spider-Man.


watching: mammoth

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Mar 17, 2008 12:00 am 
By jephyork
Director

Gotcha -- good point. And very obliquely done, to boot. Well done! *applauds*

-Jeph!

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Thread 12

Subject: W3 63-FB

Mar 17, 2008 12:58 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine v3 #63 has a FlashBack with Logan & Mystique in Kansas City, 1921.

Pg1-pg5-FB
Logan and Raven stroll through Kansas City while Mystique tries to talk him into joining her group of swindlers. 

Pg17-pg18-FB
With Logan not yet convinced, Raven tries a more... aggressive approach. 

References: 
Continued more or less directly from last issues Flashbacks. 

Some placement suggestions:

MYSTIQUE/RAVEN DARKHOLME/"MALLORY BRICKMAN"/"B. BYRON BIGGS"/"RONNIE LAKE"/"DALE FYFE" 
W3 62 (1-3)-FB
W3 62 (17-18)-FB
*W3 63 (1-5)-FB
*W3 63 (17-18)-FB 
UX 428
XMF 4
...

WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT 
...
W: O 17 (5-8)-FB 
W3 57-FB (04/22/1915) 
W3 58-FB
W3 59-FB
W3 60-FB
W3 62 (1-3)-FB (1921)
W3 62 (17-18)-FB
*W3 63 (1-5)-FB (1921)
*W3 63 (17-18)-FB
W2 113-FB
M/CP 154-FB
W2 126 (8)-FB 
W: O @1-FB (1932) 
...

There are other FlashBacks that immediately precede the issue, hence the page/panel ranges.

-Daron Jensen

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Thread 13

Subject: Captain America #34 (Director's Cut)

Mar 16, 2008 11:06 pm 
By TheDeuce

i didn't buy this, but i flipped through it at the comic store. it looks like the end of it has a 2 page bit with Bucky as Captain America talking to a reporter about him being the new Captain America1. i imagine it's canon. how would this be listed? i don't know much about director's cuts of books, but don't they usually not contain any new material?

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Mar 17, 2008 6:59 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

My vote is CA5 34/2.

Paul B.

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Mar 17, 2008 8:47 am 
By Somebody
Director

CA5 34DC/2, surely. That is, if you don't want Russ to get loads of "But there's no second story in Cap #34" e-mails.

*hasn't read the DC to comment on canonicity*

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Thread 14

Subject: Avengers Fairy Tales has a canon page.

Mar 16, 2008 1:30 am 
By Jason Doty

It apears that the last page of this weeks Avengers Fairy Tales is canon. The Scarlet Witch narrarates the story to a group of hospitalized children.

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Mar 16, 2008 6:42 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

In costume? In America? Any idea where this might fit?

Paul B.

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Mar 17, 2008 12:01 am 
By jephyork
Director

"Anywhere".

-Jeph!

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Mar 17, 2008 12:56 pm 
By Jason Doty

She appears in her 1970's, early 80's outfit, minus the cape. It appears to be a childrens ward at a US hospital.

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Thread 15

Subject: Couple of notes..

Mar 19, 2008 2:13 pm 
By Somebody
Director

According to Joe Casey - http://forum.newsarama.com/showpost.php?p=5300028 - Colossus' part in Last Defenders takes place during Uncanny #495 (between the "two weeks ago" FB with Cyclops & Iron Man, and the "Wolverine, Nightcrawler & Colossus on the Road" segment).

And according to the Incredible Herc writers - http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/ ... i?id=13409 - the present-day segments of the Hulk/Herc one-shot will take place between iHerc #115 & #116.

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Mar 20, 2008 6:50 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Good to know. Thanks, Somebody.

Paul B.

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Thread 16

Subject: Spidey entry- SM/DS:WDD

Feb 29, 2008 10:30 am 
By cweed4

Recently read Spider-Man/Dr. Strange: The Way to Dusty Death. I was going to do an issue analysis for it but then noticed it was already entered for all the characters except Spidey. Based on the placement given for Doc Strange (just prior to IW 1) I would suggest updating the webhead's entry similarly.

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER:
NW@ 2
DHAWK 19
DHAWK 20
SLEEP 17
WOSM 90
SM/DS:WDD
S-M 24
IW 1
S-M 24
IW 1
S-M 24
IW 2
WM2 13

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Mar 01, 2008 4:43 pm 
By cweed4

As an extra note, I did forget to mention that the opening scenes establish this occurs on the anniversary of Ben's death. This may or may not present a dilemma for a corresponding calendar placement.

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Mar 02, 2008 10:42 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Isn't it the anniversary of Gwen's death?

Paul B.

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Mar 18, 2008 5:45 pm 
By cweed4

Nope. 

From page 1-
>>>
You see, it's the anniversary of the death of my uncle, Ben Parker.
<<<

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Mar 18, 2008 6:37 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for confirming that. I have placed Ben's death on April Fool's Day. It so happens that I tentatively placed IW 1 on April 24 of Year 17, so that...works.  And S-M 44 occurs on the anniversary of Ben's death the following year.

However, I probably have several Spidey appearances in the three intervening weeks between SM/DS:WDD and IW 1.

Paul B.

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Mar 20, 2008 9:57 am 
By cweed4

Not sure which appearances and how many stories you have in that time period. There are certainly other gaps between stories that could be made to fit this particular appearance prior to IW 1 though. Listed below is the chronology for Spidey immediately preceding IW and possible alternative placements. If any of those work better for you let me know.


Spidey
ASM 361
ASM 362
ASM 363
**story gap**
MORBIUS 1
MORBIUS 2
MORBIUS 3-FB
MORBIUS 3
MORBIUS 4
ASM@ 26/4
WOSM@ 8/4
**story gap**
ASM@ 26
PPTSS@ 12
WOSM@ 8
NW@ 2
**story gap**
DHAWK 19
DHAWK 20
SLEEP 17
**story gap**
WOSM 90
*SM/DS:WDD* (suggested)
S-M 24
IW 1

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Thread 17

Subject: Shroud note

Mar 16, 2008 10:38 am 
By Enda80

The Shroud's origin was first told in STVU 7.


SHROUD/MAXIMILLIAN QUINCY COLERIDGE 
PPTSS@ 14/3-FB
SHROUD 1-FB
PPTSS@ 14/3-FB
SHROUD 1-FB
{SVTU 5}

I don't have any of the above issues, but his listing should integrate the SVTU 7, as it was the first telling of his origin (despite the fact that it was as blatant an homage to 'Tec#33 as TMNT#1 was to DD#1).

Last edited by Enda80 on Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

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Mar 16, 2008 12:23 pm 
By Enda80

Full page scans of the Shroud's origin from STVU 7 can be seen here.

http://bp2.blogger.com/__p6Clhn9WDI/R84f3tBIHNI/AAAAAAAACJc/-U8Xdb7lqEs/s1600-h/03-04-2008+08%3B12%3B04PM.JPG
This page shows the murder of Thomas and Martha Wayne by Joe Chill..........er, um, the murder of the Shroud's parents. 

http://bp3.blogger.com/__p6Clhn9WDI/R84f49BIHOI/AAAAAAAACJk/yz3_QHeSsjE/s1600-h/03-04-2008+08%3B14%3B47PM.JPG
http://bp3.blogger.com/__p6Clhn9WDI/R84f49BIHOI/AAAAAAAACJk/yz3_QHeSsjE/s1600-h/03-04-2008+08%3B14%3B47PM.JPG
This page shows the scene where a monk in the Himalayas put a hot brand on his face and he ran out into the snow to cool the scalding.
(I just noticed something; in Fantastic Four#278, it is established that Doctor Doom was actually largely disfigured when a monk in the Himalayas put a still hot newly forged metal mask on his face, and Doom then rushed out into the snow to cool the mask and his face down. This story was published in the 1980's.
Well, take a look at the origin of the Shrould published in the 1970's.) 

http://www.comicboards.com/fantasticfour/view.php?msg=080315134636

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Mar 17, 2008 11:48 am 
By Arthur
Director

Here's my take on it...

PPTSS@ 14/3 (12:2)-FB father showing affection (Max -OP).
PPTSS@ 14/3 (10:1)-FB father teaching life lessons to Max.
SVTU 7 (5:2-5:4)-FB Mother, father and Max walking home from concert; accosted and fired on by armed thief.
SHROUD 1 (11:5)-FB Close timing to SVTU (5:4)  being accosted and shot, but this panel shows Julia`s purse already in the thief`s possession. (Max  OP).
PPTSS@ 14/3 (10:3-10:4)-FB Parents are rushed home with Justin Meagher`s assistance; Justin informs Max of their passing.
SVTU 7 (5:5)-FB Max swears to fight killers and all criminals.
SHROUD 1 (12:1)-FB Max at his parents` gravesite.
PPTSS@ 14/3 (12:4-12:5)-FB Justin strongly encourages Max to work hard at school.
SVTU 7 (5:6-5:8)-FB Max studies criminology and forensics; trains his body becomes quite athletic. Super-heroes appear doing what Max dreams about doing  fighting crime.
SHROUD 1 (12:2-12:4)-FB gains proficiency in firearms; becomes frustrated feeling western methods are not enough; finds book on Cults of the East.
PPTSS@ 14/3 (11:1)-FB Max tells Justin he`s leaving.
SVTU 7 (6:1)-FB Max flies to Nepal.
SHROUD 1 (12:5)-FB finds temple of Kali.
SVTU 7 (6:2-6:3)-FB Max approaches the temple and is received by the followers of Kali.
SHROUD 1 (13:1-13:2)-FB Max meets mentor Balinor and his daughter Dalindra; learns killing techniques.
SVTU 7 (6:4)-FB Max also learns the worship of Kali.
SHROUD 1 (13:3-13:5)-FB Initiation rites: rite begins, Max sees the flaming brand of Kali, is blinded.
SVTU 7 (6:5-6:6)-FB (at same time as blinded...) is branded, then staggers from temple.
SHROUD 1 (13:6)-FB kneels in the cooling Himalayan snow.
SVTU 7 (6:7)-FB awakes to darkness.
SHROUD 1 (14:1)-FB realizes temple has vanished. 
SVTU 7 (6:8-6:9)-FB returns to America; designs and makes costume.
SHROUD 1 (14:2-14:4)-FB begins crusade against crime.


**COLERIDGE, JULIA ROSE
**SVTU 7 (5:2-5:4)-FB 
**SHROUD 1 (11:5)-FB 
**PPTSS@ 14/3 (10:3-10:4)-FB 

**COLERIDGE, QUINCY III
**PPTSS@ 14/3 (12:2)-FB 
**PPTSS@ 14/3 (10:1)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (5:2-5:4)-FB 
**SHROUD 1 (11:5)-FB 
**PPTSS@ 14/3 (10:3-10:4)-FB 

**MEAGHER, JUSTIN
**PPTSS@ 14/3 (10:3-10:4)-FB 
**PPTSS@ 14/3 (12:4-12:5)-FB 
**PPTSS@ 14/3 (11:1)-FB 


SHROUD/MAXIMILLIAN QUINCY COLERIDGE 
*PPTSS@ 14/3 (12:2)-FB-OP
*PPTSS@ 14/3 (10:1)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (5:2-5:4)-FB 
*SHROUD 1 (11:5)-FB-OP
*PPTSS@ 14/3 (10:3-10:4)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (5:5)-FB 
*SHROUD 1 (12:1)-FB 
*PPTSS@ 14/3 (12:4-12:5)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (5:6-5:8)-FB 
*SHROUD 1 (12:2-12:4)-FB 
*PPTSS@ 14/3 (11:1)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (6:1)-FB 
*SHROUD 1 (12:5)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (6:2-6:3)-FB 
*SHROUD 1 (13:1-13:2)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (6:4)-FB 
*SHROUD 1 (13:3-13:5)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (6:5-6:6)-FB 
*SHROUD 1 (13:6)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (6:7)-FB 
*SHROUD 1 (14:1)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (6:8-6:9)-FB 
*SHROUD 1 (14:2-14:4)-FB 
{SVTU 5}

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Mar 17, 2008 7:10 pm 
By Enda80

Thanks for the stellar turnaround time. After I found out about this on Saturday, I have so far had replies from John Byrne and Steve Engelheart, too. 

The Shroud is said to have spent seven years in Tibet (pace the Shadow). Who were the costumed adventurers who inspired him to become the Shroud? That would take seven years out of the modern era if it was anyone who started in the modern era.

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Mar 17, 2008 10:30 pm 
By Arthur
Director

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
The Shroud is said to have spent seven years in Tibet 
<<<

Where is this said?


and Enda80 asked
>>>
Who were the costumed adventurers who inspired him to become the Shroud?
<<<

Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, the Hulk, Daredevil and Thor are shown.

			*	*	*

Mar 18, 2008 8:38 pm 
By Enda80

The most recent Official Handbook entry says that Coleridge spent seven years training in Tibet. 

By the way, John Byrne has stated that the scene of Von Doom running into the snow to douse the scalding in FF I#278 was not done as an homage to the Shroud's origin.

			*	*	*

Mar 20, 2008 4:26 am 
By Enda80

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cindylou/318032242/
Spider-Woman I#14 and 15 have fbs to the Shroud's origin, and one of them seems to add one-panel to his training and one-panel of him crouched down as his parents are lying dead on the ground.

			*	*	*

Mar 20, 2008 11:44 pm 
By Arthur
Director

The panels you mentioned are in S-W 13, not 14

S-W 13 (11:6) Max kneeling and crying over his prostate parents. After the shooting, before theyre taken home.
S-W 13 (12/13:3) Max training in unarmed combat. I put this before the training with weapons
S-W 15 (2:3) shows that Max was held by two priests when the branding was done. I place this just before the actually searing of flesh.
S-W 15 (2:4) shows Max lying in the snow looking back towards the temple. This is the only shot that shows that the temple was actually there (Max believes it vanished)...right after he wakes up.

Beyond the origin flashbacks, S-W 13 has a couple of panels relating to the SVTU storyline: (12/13:8)  fighting with Doom; (12/13:9) blocking the Red Skulls hypno-ray) and (12/13:10)  rescued by Captain America.

Incorporating these into the chronologies:

**COLERIDGE, JULIA ROSE
**SVTU 7 (5:2-5:4)-FB 
**SHROUD 1 (11:5)-FB 
**S-W 13 (11:6)-FB Max kneeling over his parents in street.
**PPTSS@ 14/3 (10:3-10:4)-FB 

**COLERIDGE, QUINCY III
**PPTSS@ 14/3 (12:2)-FB 
**PPTSS@ 14/3 (10:1)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (5:2-5:4)-FB 
**SHROUD 1 (11:5)-FB 
**S-W 13 (11:6)-FB Max kneeling over his parents in street.
**PPTSS@ 14/3 (10:3-10:4)-FB 

**MEAGHER, JUSTIN
**PPTSS@ 14/3 (10:3-10:4)-FB 
**PPTSS@ 14/3 (12:4-12:5)-FB 
**PPTSS@ 14/3 (11:1)-FB

SHROUD/MAXIMILLIAN QUINCY COLERIDGE 
*PPTSS@ 14/3 (12:2)-FB-OP
*PPTSS@ 14/3 (10:1)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (5:2-5:4)-FB 
*SHROUD 1 (11:5)-FB-OP
**S-W 13 (11:6) kneeling over his parets
*PPTSS@ 14/3 (10:3-10:4)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (5:5)-FB 
*SHROUD 1 (12:1)-FB 
*PPTSS@ 14/3 (12:4-12:5)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (5:6-5:8)-FB 
*SHROUD 1 (12:2-12:4)-FB 
*PPTSS@ 14/3 (11:1)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (6:1)-FB 
*SHROUD 1 (12:5)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (6:2-6:3)-FB 
*SHROUD 1 (13:1)-FB 
**S-W 13 (12/13:3)-FB unarmed combat
*SHROUD 1 (13:2)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (6:4)-FB 
*SHROUD 1 (13:3-13:4)-FB 
**S-W 15 (2:3)-FB initiation rites
*SHROUD 1 (13:5)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (6:5-6:6)-FB 
*SHROUD 1 (13:6)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (6:7)-FB 
**S-W 15 (2:4)-FB lying in snowbank
*SHROUD 1 (14:1)-FB 
**SVTU 7 (6:8-6:9)-FB 
*SHROUD 1 (14:2-14:4)-FB 
{SVTU 5}
SVTU 6
*SVTU 7 (1-12:1)
**S-W 13 (12/13:8)-FB Shroud actually punches Doom during their fight.
*SVTU 7 (12:2-17:6)
SVTU 8
SVTU 9
SVTU 10
SVTU 11
*SVTU 12 (1-10:8)
**S-W 13 (12/13:9)-FB Shroud blocks hypnoray
*SVTU 12 (13:2  13:6)
**S-W 13 (12/13:10)-FB Cap carries the Shroud to sick bay
*SVTU 12 (14:1  17:5)

DOCTOR DOOM/VICTOR VON DOOM
SVTU 6
*SVTU 7 (1-12:1)
**S-W 13 (12/13:8)-FB Shroud actually punches Doom during their fight.
*SVTU 7 (12:2-17:6)
SVTU 8

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN GRANT ROGERS
SVTU 11
*SVTU 12 (1  13:6)
**S-W 13 (12/13:10)-FB Cap carries the Shroud to sick bay
*SVTU 12 (14:1  17:5)
DEF 44

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Thread 18

Subject: Avengers Classic 10

Mar 22, 2008 5:17 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Here's a breakdown of how the new story in this week's Avengers Classic #10 fits into Avengers #10. Excluded are panels in Classic that show no new material:
AVENGERS #10 (1-6:7)
AVENGERS CLASSIC #10/2 (1-3:2)
AVENGERS #10 (6:8-14:5)
AVENGERS #10 (14:6) ~ AVENGERS CLASSIC #10/2 (3:3)
AVENGERS CLASSIC #10/2 (3:4-8)
AVENGERS #10 (15-17)
AVENGERS CLASSIC #10/2 (9:1)
AVENGERS #10 (18-19:5)
AVENGERS CLASSIC #10/2 (9:4)
AVENGERS #10 (19:6-20)

This means that the MCP entry "A 10" must be changed for several characters, thusly:

BARON ZEMO
A 10 (1-17)
AC 10/2 (9:1)
A 10 (18-20)

CAPTAIN AMERICA
A 10 (1-14:5)
A 10 (14:6) ~ AC 10/2 (3:3)
AC 10/2 (3:4-8)
A 10 (15-17)
AC 10/2 (9:1)
A 10 (18-20)

ENCHANTRESS
A 10 (1-19:5)
AC 10/2 (9:4)
A 10 (19:6-20)

IMMORTUS
A 10 (1-6:7)
AC 10/2 (1-3:2)
A 10 (6:8-14:5)
A 10 (14:6) ~ AC 10/2 (3:3)
AC 10/2 (3:4-8)
A 10 (19:6-20) - BTS

JONES, RICK
A 10 (1-6:7)
AC 10/2 (1-3:2)
A 10 (6:8-14:5)
AC 10/2 (3:4-9:1)
A 10 (18-20)

WASP
A 10 (1-19:5)
AC 10/2 (9:4)
A 10 (19:6-20)

Other characters in A 10 do not have new material in Classic, so their MCP entry remains "A 10."

Paul B.

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Thread 19

Subject: Characters with grouped codenames [INITIATIVE 1-10 SPOILERS]

Mar 22, 2008 1:10 am 
By jephyork
Director

(Thread originally titlled "Michael Van Patricks everywhere!")

I just read "Avengers: the Initiative" #1-10, and ... my goodness that's a lot of MVP clones! It's almost at deus ex machina level at this point ... need a new hero/villain/stand-in? Send in another clone! (Don't get me wrong, though, I'm loving the book.)

We've got the original MVP, deceased, whose grinning body still manages to show up all the time ... the first clone, who is living with his father in Kentucky ... the next three, who are the Scarlet Spiders ... and a fifth clone, who just became KIA. (See what they did there with the three-letter codenames? MVP ... KIA ... ha!)

I started thinking how we're going to catalogue these poor bastards in the MCP. Especially the Scarlet Spiders. Ben Reilly was Scarlet Spider #1, of course (and wasn't there another one created in the "Web of Scarlet Spider" miniseries?) ... but since these three refer to each other as One, Two and Three, I think it would be weird to list them in the MCP as III, IV and V.

Sooo, in much the same way as I suggested listing the Cuckoos as Stepford Cuckoos v1, v3 and v4, per their full Weapon Plus designations in NXM #154 ... I suggest listing the Spiders by their full military designations: Scarlet Spider Red Team One, Scarlet Spider Red Team Two, and Scarlet Spider Red Team Three.

This would give us:

MVP / MICHAEL VAN PATRICK

MICHAEL VAN PATRICK II [CLONE]

SCARLET SPIDER RED TEAM ONE / "MICHAEL" / MICHAEL VAN PATRICK III [CLONE]

SCARLET SPIDER RED TEAM TWO / "VAN" / MICHAEL VAN PATRICK IV [CLONE]

SCARLET SPIDER RED TEAM THREE / "PATRICK" / MICHAEL VAN PATRICK V [CLONE]

KIA / MICHAEL VAN PATRICK VI [CLONE]


Hey, it just hit me that the original Scarlet was a clone too. Oh that Dan Slott. You just know he did that on purpose.

Also, it's noteworthy that both the Tactigon and the Gauntlet's gauntlet appear to be sentient. The Gauntlet's gauntlet doesn't yet have a name, but the Tactigon does -- and it can therefore qualify for a listing, separate from both Armory (its first host) and KIA.

Oh, and -- is Hardball's brother, the crippled wrestler, someone that we saw in the Thunderbolts revamp a while back? He looks familiar to me.

What a fun book this is.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 22, 2008 11:41 am 
By Somebody
Director

Noting the "Michael"/"Van"/"Patrick" bits on the Spiders... have all of the clones called themselves "Michael Van Patrick"? Because, surely, just being a clone of doesn't qualify them for the full name...

*hasn't been reading Initiative. Reading Slott books gives me an angry headache...*

			*	*	*

Mar 22, 2008 5:42 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Because, surely, just being a clone of doesn't qualify them for the full name...
<<<

Good point. The three Scarlet Spiders have been referred to only as Michael, Van, and Patrick, and these are presumably their first (and only) names.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 22, 2008 6:33 pm 
By Somebody
Director

And, by the by, isn't/aren't the Cuckoos' codename(s) "Three-In-One", not "Stepford Cuckoos"? [With "Cuckoo" as their official surname]

			*	*	*

Mar 22, 2008 8:01 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Uh, not to my knowledge, no. My understanding of the books is that "Three-in-One" (and "Five-in-One" before that) is a nickname or subtitle, like "Master of the Mystic Arts". "Stepford Cuckoos" is their official group codename, they have no individual codenames, and they have no surnames. The only time they've listed anything resembling individual designations was in NXM #154, when they called themselves "Stepford Cuckoos///Version01/03/04///Weapon XIV".

There's no way to prove with certainty which "version number" associates with which Cuckoo, but I have a theory: if you alphabetize and number their names, you get (1) Celeste, (2) Esme, (3) Mindee, (4) Phoebe, (5) Sophie. Esme and Sophie, 2 and 5, are dead, leaving ... numbers 1, 3 and 4.

I'd list 'em as STEPFORD CUCKOOS VERSION 01 / CELESTE, and so forth.

Good point about the Spiders, though. I was working under the notion that clones of a character should be listed with that character's name before their assumed new name ... but then again, we don't seem to list Ben Reilly or Namorita that way. So never mind. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 22, 2008 8:07 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Marvel.com agrees: http://www.marvel.com/universe/Stepford_Cuckoos

>>>
STEPFORD CUCKOOS

Real Name: Celeste, Esme (deceased), Mindee, Phoebe, Sophie (deceased) (surname unrevealed)

Aliases: Three-in-One, formerly Five-in-One
<<<

Heh. Speaking of clones and real names, I just realized that the Cuckoos are (sort of) clones too. Is anyone being discussed in this thread NOT a clone?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 22, 2008 8:17 pm 
By Somebody
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Uh, not to my knowledge, no. My understanding of the books is that "Three-in-One" (and "Five-in-One" before that) is a nickname or subtitle, like "Master of the Mystic Arts". "Stepford Cuckoos" is their official group codename, they have no individual codenames, and they have no surnames. 
<<<

Other way around - Academy X Yearbook lists them (in the actual, in-universe, Yearbook pages) as "CELESTE, PHOEBE, MINDEE CUCKOO (THE THREE-IN-ONE)". As you can see, the other students are listed as "[FIRST NAME] [SURNAME] ([CODENAME])". TiO is their codename, SC is the MotMA nickname.

PS: Your theory about which is numbered which does not have a basis in the comics, ja? :p

			*	*	*

Mar 22, 2008 9:15 pm 
By jephyork
Director

That's what makes it a theory.  

And yes, it certainly does have a "basis" in the comics. It's an in-comic fact that Celeste, Mindee and Phoebe are numbered (in some order) 01, 03 and 04 -- and therefore, that Esme and Sophie were numbered (in some order) 02 and 05. The rest is, as I said, my best theory as to how to assign the numbers. "Alphabetical" actually *works* with the evidence we have.

The other alternative is to use the MCP style of numbering -- roman-numeral them chronologically by order of first appearance. Oh wait, they all first appeared in the same issue. Same panel, no less. What do we do in scenarios like that, where multiple people with the same codename first appear in the same panel? I'd assume we default to alphabetically by real name ... gee, that would make Celeste 1, Esme 2... 

As for the above scan -- meh. Comic after comic of people calling them the Stepford Cuckoos, plus an on-panel word balloon in a comic written by their creator where they designate themselves "Stepford Cuckoos" ... versus a text blurb on one page of a comic written by people who *didn't normally handle the Cuckoos.* I'll take the preponderance of evidence and creator intent, myself -- as, apparently, did Marvel.com, who notably listed "Three-in-One" as an alias rather than a nickname.

What the hell is "MotMA"?

(Edit: oh, got it, "Master of the Mystic Arts". Jeez. I know you love your acronyms, but there are times when clarity beats out brevity...)

-Jeph!

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Mar 22, 2008 9:30 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Oh -- and, backing up the "the Cuckoos have no surnames" argument -- Sophie's grave in "Phoenix: Endsong" reads:

SOPHIE
One of Five
Heroine of Open Day

No surname.

(Sophie and Esme's gravestones in "Warsong" don't have any text on them at all, by the way.)

I think at this point I should change the thread title... 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 22, 2008 9:50 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I should probably save up all my ammo and post it at once, instead of replying endlessly to myself ... but:

"X-Men: the 198 Files", a compilation of in-universe government data files, lists the girls officially as "Stepford Cuckoos", and adds at the end that "the 'Three-in-One,' as they call themselves, should not be underestimated".

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 23, 2008 2:27 am 
By dimadick

The other Scarlet Spider that you mentioned would be Joe Wade. He turned up in "Amazing Scarlet Spider" #1-2 (November - December, 1995), "Spectacular Scarlet Spider" #1-2 (November - December, 1995), "Web of Scarlet Spider" #2-4 (December, 1995 - February 1996), "Scarlet Spider" #2 (December, 1995) and "New Warriors" #67 (November, 1995). 

Technically the third Scarlet Spider was Chu Chi Huan, an impostor from Spider-Man Unlimited #14 (December, 1996). He got killed in his only appearance so he remains the most obscure of the three.

			*	*	*

Mar 23, 2008 8:21 am 
By loki

See, this is why the handbooks gave up on numbering and started using other descriptors to distinguish between people who share a codename.  You start finding obscure characters who need slotted in between the existing numbers, and it just messes up the whole system.

With respect to the Yearbook photos, you can take it that whichever character (student?) at the Academy put it together, used Cuckoo like it was the trios' surname as a way of being cute - the trio don't seem to have proper surnames, but since they get referred to as the Cuckoos, the (in-story) Yearbook writer either misunderstood that to be their surname or did it to poke fun at the overly self-important telepaths.

			*	*	*

Mar 23, 2008 12:33 pm 
By Mikhail

Chu Chi Huan wasn't really a "Scarlet Spider" to categorize, I don't think -- he was just dressed up in the costume before El Toro Negro killed him.

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Subject: Fantastic Four Annual 14 and 16

Mar 23, 2008 9:43 pm 
By anq.4
Hi everybody.

I think that these two annuals are not correctly placed in the chronos.

Annual 14 is between regulare FF # 214 and 215, but the 
thing says at page 5 they just met Blastaar, that happened in # 215.
So i think it's position should be shifted almost 1 issue forward... I 
don't have at the moment # 216 and 217 to check if it's more than 1.

Annual 16 instead is placed in the middle of issue 238, when Frankie 
Raye has already discovered it's power and become a central charachter.
Instead Johnny at page 7 speaks of her in a much more reductive way, as 
his girlfriend.
I think it should be placed between # 235 and 236... it should also be 
more consistent with the real exit date.
In # 237 she shows him for the first time his powers to Johnny Storm, 
which was just back from the Von Doom story that lasted all # 236.

Both these placements involve the classic FF quartet plus Franklin.

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Subject: How old was Matt Murdock when he lost his sight?

Mar 28, 2008 2:47 am 
By wolframbane

Would anyone here be aware of how old Matt Murdock was when he lost his sight, and what issue (if any) this age was given in?

			*	*	*

Mar 28, 2008 4:32 am 
By Enda80

http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3485&hilit=Olshevsky

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Mar 28, 2008 7:11 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Enda, is the answer wolframbane seeks buried somewhere in that two-page thread to which you refer? I couldn't find it in a quick scan. If you know the answer, why not just say it? I'm getting tired of the relentless links that seem to be posted just for the sake of linking.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 28, 2008 10:00 am 
By Somebody
Director

It's not there that I can see either.

Enda, posting just to pad your post count without any discernible relevant content may damage your chances of continuing to post here...

			*	*	*

Mar 28, 2008 4:12 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

It's there (buried). Here's how Enda80 should have said it:

According to a post in this thread, Olshevsky says that Matt was 8 at the time, but that's an extrapolation, not given in a Marvel story.

If anyone is posting merely to increase their post count, it's a simple matter for us to make their post count whatever we want.

			*	*	*

Mar 28, 2008 11:41 pm 
By wolframbane

Thanks for the help everyone. This helps me figure out when Matt got his powers in relation to the Marvel Calender.

Is the Olshevski reference from Marvel Comics Index #9B - Daredevil (April, 1982)?

			*	*	*

Mar 29, 2008 5:44 am 
By Peter Fabricius

Yes it is, in the information for Daredevil #1 on page 6

Only three weeks on the job and already I live for seeing his forehead turn that shade of pink.

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Subject: NIGHTSIDE

Mar 02, 2008 6:53 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

NIGHTSIDE #1-4 should be removed from the Checklist and added to the non-canon list.

-Daron Jensen

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Mar 02, 2008 2:13 pm 
By SeanCurtin

According to the author, Nightside takes place in the Marvel Universe. Is that claim contradicted somewhere?

			*	*	*

Mar 02, 2008 8:29 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

It's creator owned, right? It was published somewhere else first(if I remember right, in an anthology called Paths of the Brave... or something) and Weinberg still holds the rights. As I understand it, creator owned characters aren't officially canon to 616. That may be different for us, though. Has a creator owned series made it into the listings?

-Daron Jensen

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Mar 02, 2008 8:43 pm 
By Somebody
Director

SeanCurtin wrote:
>>>
According to the author, Nightside takes place in the Marvel Universe. Is that claim contradicted somewhere?
<<<

Where was this said? I didn't read the comic, but I seem to recall Weinberg saying it was off in his own world, which was one of the reasons I didn't get it.

			*	*	*

Mar 02, 2008 10:56 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

It was Path of the Bold! Sorry about that.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
I seem to recall Weinberg saying it was off in his own world
<<<

See, that's what I remember. But then again, I couldn't remember the name of the anthology...

-Daron Jensen

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Mar 03, 2008 4:28 am 
By dimadick

"According to the author, Nightside takes place in the Marvel Universe."

If it does, then it would fit very awkwardly with other depictions of vampires and werewolves in the Marvel Universe. According to this series:

*The supernatural creatures of the Earth have formed a sub-order of humanity known as "the Others".
*After facing persecution from mainstream humanity, they started operating in secrecy. 
*Eventually coalitions and criminal organizations emerged within their ranks. At the beginning of the series five major factions situated in New York City have formed the "East Board Council" which supposedly controlled all activities of the supernatural mob in the East Coast of the United States:Vampires, Werewolves, Ogres, Little People and a fifth faction of giantic proportions, nick-named the "Big People". Various minor supernatural races like the ghouls and the weretigers were working for the big ones.
*Unaffiliated supernaturals were not even mentioned. No room for Dracula or Jack Russel ,for example, to have independant activities.

			*	*	*

Mar 06, 2008 12:55 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Has a creator owned series made it into the listings?
<<<

Umm...well, Kull, (the Robert E. Howard character) has a listing, and all the other Howard characters will eventually be added...


dimadick wrote:
>>>
*Unaffiliated supernaturals were not even mentioned. No room for Dracula or Jack Russel ,for example, to have independant activities.
<<<

Just because the Marvel Universe's Dracula and Jack Russell weren't mentioned doesn't mean they couldn't be out there, having their own adventures seperate from the Vampires and other creatures shown in this mini-series.

I've moved this thread to the Marvel universe forum for further discussion. If someone can provide better evidence this isn't canon, then I'll gladly remove it from the Checklist.

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Mar 06, 2008 12:58 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
Umm...well, Kull, (the Robert E. Howard character) has a listing, and all the other Howard characters will eventually be added...
<<<

Good point!

Hrmn. Can anyone provide an analysis?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 06, 2008 8:15 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

It's worth noting, though, that Conan, Kull, Rom, Micronauts, et al, are unquestionably part of the Marvel Universe.


watching: weather channel

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Mar 12, 2008 2:14 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

I finally had some time to look around the internet, and as it turns out it only took me twelve minutes to find this: 

Robert Weinberg wrote:
>>>
"With CABLE, I couldn't really change the character very much. I had to make sure that the background stayed true to the Marvel Universe, which is somewhat different than ours," says Weinberg. "In NIGHTSIDE, the characters are mine. I know how they act, what they think, and most of all, what their world is like. And it's definitely not the Marvel Universe."
<<<

So there it is. The writer of the series says Nightside doesn't take place in the Marvel Universe.(I knew I wasn't crazy!)

I guess we don't need an analysis after all, but if anyone felt so inclined I wouldn't mind seeing one.

-Daron Jensen

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Thread 23

Subject: CFA: Hulk Nightmerica

Mar 02, 2008 8:54 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

I'm attempting to add this to the listings, but I only have issues 1 and 4-6. If anyone can provide analyses of issues 2 and 3, or for that matter, the set of 6, we'd appreciate it.


watching: search for the ark

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Mar 02, 2008 8:56 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Here you go!

-Daron Jensen

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Mar 02, 2008 9:00 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks! Knew I could count on you!

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Subject: Daredevil 101-105

Mar 01, 2008 3:07 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Daredevil #101
November, 2007

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Milla Murdock, Foggy Nelson, Turk, Asst. D.A. Algren, Dakota North, Becky Blake, Det. Kurtz, Hood(Parker Robbins)

Synopsis: 
Pg1: one night
Daredevil interrogates some thugs by beating the tar out of them. 
Pg2-pg3: next day
Turk is informed that Daredevil is looking for Mr. Fear. He rethinks his position with Mr. Fear and makes a phone call. 
Pg4-pg13pn5(of 7)-FB: three days ago
Matt & Foggy visit Milla in her holding cell, where Algren informs them he wont even consider releasing her until she passes a psych evaluation. The two return to their offices where Dakota tells Matt about her NYPD connection. That night, Matt visits Milla as Daredevil. 
Pg13pn6-pg19-FB: two days ago
Daredevil meets with Det. Kurtz at the explosion site. It turns out the place was Mr. Fears chemists, Dante V. Govich. Later, Matt & Foggy watch Millas psych evaluation fail miserably. Later still, the court decides to keep Milla, which upsets Matt. Hes held in contempt, and incarcerated for a night. 
Pg20-pg21-FB: one day ago, before pg1
Daredevil interrogates some thugs by beating the tar out of them. 
Pg22: same night as pg3
The Hood and Turk watch Daredevil beat the tar out of some thugs from afar. 

References: 
Three days ago is the day after last issue. 

Dante V. Govich is the guy who blew up last issue. 

Daredevil #102
January, 2008

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Foggy Nelson, Milla Murdock, Mr. Fear(Larry Cranston), Ox, Fancy Dan-FB, Montana-FB, Wrecker-FB, Razorfist-FB, Det. Kurtz-FB, Dakota North-FB, Prof. Dante V. Govich-FB

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2: day after last issue
Larry Cranston gets out of bed. 
Pg3pn1-pg3pn4-FB: sometime before DD2 89
Cranston has brought his fear gas to Prof. Govich, who quickly realizes that it could be used for other applications than what Cranston has been using it for. 
Pg3pn5(of 5)-pg6: same day as pg2
Larry spars with his fighting trainers until a beat up Ox enters. 
Pg7-pg17-FB: earlier that day
The Enforcers are interrupted from enforcing by the Wrecker and Razorfist. The nearby Det. Kurtz cals up Dakota to let her know whats happening. Meanwhile, Matt & Foggy are about to appeal Millas staus when Matt gets a phone call from Dakota. He makes his way across town as Daredevil to tail the Enforcers, but is caught up with the Wrecker and they get away. 
Pg18-pg22: same day as pg6
Ox finishes his story. Meanwhile, Daredevil makes his way through the sewers and discovers people at his house. Foggy was able to get Milla released to house arrest, but she needs a nurse present at all times. Meanwhile, Mr. Fear schemes

References: 
As revealed later, Mr. Fear is responsible for Lily Lucas pheromone powers. (3:1-3:4)-FB is where he discovers uses for his fear gases besides just fear, so this Flashback must occur sometime before Lilys first appearance. 

Is it just me, or does Michael Lark draw Larry Cranston to look like Live Schreiber? Just look at pg22 and tell me different. 

Daredevil #103
February, 2008

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Foggy Nelson, Lily Lucca, Asst. D.A. Algren, Thunderball, Bulldozer, Milla Murdock, Fancy Dan, Doc Parker, Ox

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: day after end of last issue
The Wrecking Crew is tearing up Hells Kitchen, but this time Daredevil is just waiting until Ox shows up so he doesnt get distracted. Sadly, none of Mr. Fears guys arrive. 
Pg4-pg22: next day
Foggy and Milla visit Algren to change Millas recollection of events in the subway. Meanwhile, Millas mental state is deteriorating. That night, Daredevil finds out where Fancy Dan is; Doc Parker is taking care of him. He finds out where Ox is, abducts him, and starts interrogating him with a blowtorch. Meanwhile, Lily pays Milla a visit

References: 
Theres newspaper with the headline Illegal Avengers Menace Manhattan. Pictured are Luke Cage, Wolverine, & black suit Spider-Man. 

Doc Parker is the villains version of the Night Nurse. 

Daredevil #104
March, 2008

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Mr. Fear(Larry Cranston), Lily Lucca, Ox, Hood(Parker Robbins), Milla Murdock, Foggy Nelson, Asst. D.A. Algren

Synopsis: 
Pg1: same day as end of last issue
Lily runs out of the Murdock home. 
Pg2-pg4-FB: five days ago
Mr. Fear pays Lily a visit and tells her to get Milla released from custody. After that, theres something else he wants her to do. 
Pg5-pg22: same day as pg1
Ox tells Daredevil where Mr. Fear is. Daredevil leaves, and Ox is found by the Hood. Daredevil fights his way into Mr. Fears apartment, but hes already gone. Theres a note left for him, so he goes home as Matt and finds Milla covered in her nurses blood, her nurse is unconscious. Shes arrested, and after the the police and Algren leave, Daredevil finds and interrogates Lily. She tells him that she couldnt disobey Mr. Fear. Meanwhile, The Hood pays Mr. Fear a visit. 

References: 
This issue ends at midnight, next issue picks up right where this one left off. That would make next issue the next day. 

Daredevil #105
April, 2008

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Mr. Fear(Larry Cranston), Hood(Parker Robbins), Ox, Foggy Nelson, Asst. D.A. Algren, Det. Kurtz, Milla Murdock, Dakota North

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg16: day after last issue
The Hood and Mr. Fear discuss how things work; Mr. Fear cant run his own side project when Mr. Fear is supposed to be controlling super crime. They agree to let Mr. Fear take care of Daredevil, then Mr. Fear will back off to let the Hood do whatever he wants. Meanwhile, Daredevil is tracking Mr. Fears voice. When he finds Mr. Fear they fight, and Mr. Fear revelas there is no cure for Millas exposure to the fear gas. 
Pg17: next day
Mr. Fear has been arrested, and Matt, Foggy, and Algren watch his confession to Kurtz, clearing Milla and Melvin Potter of any charges. 
Pg18-pg22: five days later
Milla is admitted to Broadmore Mental Hospital, then Matt catches a ride home with Foggy and Dakota. Meanwhile, Larry Cranston is seen in Rykers Island where he has the run of the place, thanks to his new powers. That night, the Hood and Ox spy on Matt Murdock. 

And heres what it all looks like together: 

DD2 102 (3:1-3:4)-FB
...
DD2 89
...
New Avengers 35(Hood & Mr. Fear appear)-end of arc 
 
DD2 93 (19-22) Lily leaves for New York 
 
DD2 94 
 
DD2 95 (4-5)-FB Day 1 
DD2 95 (1-3), (6-10) Day 2 
DD2 97 (1-3:1)-FB Day 2 Lily already in New York 
DD2 95 (11-22) Day 3 
DD2 96 (1-5) Day 4 
DD2 96 (6-12) Day 5 
DD2 96 (13-22) Day 6 
DD2 97 (3:2-6) Day 6 
DD2 97 (7:3)-FB, (7:4)-FB, (8:2-8:3)-FB Day 6 
DD2 97 (7:1), (7:2), (8:1), (8:4-10) Day 6 
DD2 97 (11-22) Day 7 
DD2 98 (1-21) Day 7 
DD2 98 (22) Day 8 
DD2 99 Day 8 
DD2 100 Day 8 
DD2 101 (4-13:5)-FB: Day 9
DD2 104 (2-4)-FB: Day 9
DD2 101 (13:6-19)-FB: Day 10
DD2 101 (20-21)-FB: Day 11
DD2 101 (1): Day 11
DD2 101 (22): Day 11
DD2 102 (7-17)-FB: Day 12
DD2 102 (1-2) Day 12
DD2 102 (3:5-6) Day 12
DD2 102 (18-22) Day 12
DD2 103 (1-3) Day 13
DD2 103 (4-22) Day 14
DD2 104 (1) Day 14
DD2 104 (5-22) Day 14
DD2 105 (1-16) Day 15
DD2 105 (17) Day 16
DD2 105 (18-22) Day 21

-Daron Jensen

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Mar 01, 2008 4:01 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

We've been discussing the need for a gap between the first defeat of the Hood and his gang in A4 37 and the second defeat in NA@ 2. Does it make sense for this DD story arc to occur during that gap, or do we need to place these DD issues after NA@ 2?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 01, 2008 5:47 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

The Wrecker forces this after the Annual. He's captured and incarcerated at the end of A4 37, and broken loose to attack Dr. Strange's place in the Annual. Since he's running around in these Daredevil issues, and since it can't go before A4 37 thanks to the Hood, it has to go after the Annual. 

It would seem that the Wrecker is captured again at the end of the Annual. I would suggest the recent appearance of the Wrecking Crew in M/CP2 goes after the Annual, where they break out again. Then, the Wrecking Crew is free to apear in these Daredevil issues.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 02, 2008 10:31 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

If this story arc occurs after NA@ 2, it looks like we'll have to place a months-long gap between pages 19 and 20 of DD2 93 and move all DD issues after that to a later point in the calendar. During that gap, DD would appear in WWH. Does this work?Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 02, 2008 9:21 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I don't see a problem with that.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 11:04 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
It would seem that the Wrecker is captured again at the end of the Annual. I would suggest the recent appearance of the Wrecking Crew in M/CP2 goes after the Annual, where they break out again. Then, the Wrecking Crew is free to apear in these Daredevil issues.
<<<

I don't think that works. The prison they broke out of in M/CP2 5/3 was in northern Manitoba. This appearance follows their defeat by Omega Flight in OF 5. After the breakout, they head back to the U.S. and hook up with the Hood.

So I suppose the Wrecking Crew got away after the defeat in NA@ 2 so they could appear in this DD arc.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Subject: Triple-A Baseball Heroes giveaway

Feb 24, 2008 6:01 pm 
By Jason Doty

Triple-A Baseball Heroes giveaway

Characters: Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Human Torch, Thing, Franklin and Valeria Richards, Spider-Man, Aunt May, Iron Man, Jim Rhodes, Hulk, and Sandman.

One Day at an Albuquerque, New Mexico Triple-A All-Star Game. The Fantastic Four are taking the kids to see a baseball game. Also in attendance is Peter Parker who has been sent to get some good pictures of the game, and thought it would be fun to let Aunt May to come along. Aunt May wonders why this game is so special, when Iron Man flies in to throw out the first pitch. 

Iron Man is then asked to watch the game from the lounge. There he and Jim Rhodes discuss the value of Triple- A ball.

In the stands, Bruce Banner has taken a job as a vender selling sodas. While working the crowd, he is knocked down by a man trying to catch a foul ball. The man also knocks down a young boy to get the ball. Its none other than the Sandman. Bruce suggests that he give the boy the ball, but Sandman says whose gonna make him. His eyes open wide right before he is punched through the wall by the Hulk.

Hulk enters the field. Seeing this Peter heads for cover to change into Spider-Man. The Fantastic Four also rush the field and the five engage the Hulk. While fighting, the young boy who was knocked over asks the Hulk to stop fighting. Iron Man also enters the field pleading with him to join the fun and not smash everything. Spider-Man finds an unconscious Sandman who apologizes and gives the ball to the boy. Hulk then joins the boy in singing take me out to the ball game. After the heroes return to enjoying the game and the Hulk and boy and his family are invited by Iron Man to join them in the lounge. Everyone enjoys the game.

Continuity clues. Aunt May does not know Peter is Spider-Man. Iron Mans identity is publically known. Bruce has not changed into Hulk for a while. The Fantastic Four are wearing there normal looking uniforms, with Thing in uniform pants. While Wolverine, Storm, and Captain America appear on the cover, none are in the story.

			*	*	*

Feb 24, 2008 6:19 pm 
By Somebody
Director

When you say "normal looking uniforms" for the F4, I presume you mean their Pacheco costumes? Is Iron Man in his Extremis armour?

Assuming that the answer to both of these is "yes", this depends entirely on upcoming issues of Teh Lobe's Hulk as to whether it can be in-continuity. The Secret Invasion #1 preview, with Reed in a Pacheco costume, the F4 won't be switched to the Hitch costumes in other books until SI is done, so if Banner gets free then this could possibly fit post-BND. If not, then it won't.

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Feb 24, 2008 6:32 pm 
By Somebody
Director

The FF are in their Wieringo looking uniforms. Spidey in classic Red and Blue. The Iron Man armor looks like the current one, with the upside down triangle thing on his head. This giveaway is from Aug 2007. I think the timing is set before Civil War.

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Feb 24, 2008 7:53 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Jason Doty wrote:
>>>
I think the timing is set before Civil War.
<<<

Can't be, if Aunt May doesn't know Peter=Spidey. If it's not post-BND, that takes you back to comics from 2001 and earlier. That would be just about okay for the F4 costumes - they switched to Pacheco's Kirby-homage uniforms (from what was, ironically, an earlier design by Pacheco himself) in 2001, and mostly okay for Hulk (provided you put it between the Jenkins and Jones runs) but absolutely hopeless for Iron Man, who was just switching to the udder (SKIN) armour at that time.

			*	*	*

Feb 27, 2008 6:33 am 
By dimadick

"Can't be, if Aunt May doesn't know Peter=Spidey. If it's not post-BND, that takes you back to comics from 2001 and earlier. That would be just about okay for the F4 costumes - they switched to Pacheco's Kirby-homage uniforms (from what was, ironically, an earlier design by Pacheco himself) in 2001, and mostly okay for Hulk (provided you put it between the Jenkins and Jones runs) but absolutely hopeless for Iron Man, who was just switching to the udder (SKIN) armour at that time."

Uniforms aside, the presence of Valeria Richards rather than Valeria Von Doom, places the issue after "Fantastic Four" vol. 3 #54 (June, 2002) where she is reborn. Meanwhile Aunt May had found that Peter was Spidey back in "Amazing Spider-Man" vol. 2 #35 (November, 2001), 

Do Iron Man and the Hulk mention what is going on with their lives at this point?

			*	*	*

Mar 02, 2008 6:07 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

How old does Valeria appear in this story? She was born in FF3 54 [June 2002], an event I placed on March 5 of Year 21.

Because Aunt May doesn't know that Peter is Spidey, this story would have to occur before ASM2 32 (21-33) [January 2002], which I placed on December 16 of Year 20.

Already a problem, further compounded by Iron Man's public identity. That happened in IM3 55/2 [July 2002], which I placed on June 30 of Year 21.

Also, Sandman is a beach for the entire period from PPSM 22 [October 2000] and PPSM 42 [June 2002], a span of time place between August 18 of Year 20 and April 1 of Year 21.

The Valeria, Iron Man, and Sandman clues are consistent, arguiung for placement sometime after June 30 of Year 21 (and how long after may depend on Valeria's apparent age). The Hulk's chronology may reinforce this. But the Aunt May clue is the odd one out; this story can't happen before May discovers Peter's secret ID. If we have to make that fit, then we're talking about placement after One More Day. The problem with that is OMD occurs after World War Hulk, and the Hulk's presence here after WWH is problematic.

Um...how ignorable is May's ignorance of Peter's ID?

Paul B.

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Mar 02, 2008 6:11 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Already a problem, further compounded by Iron Man's public identity. That happened in IM3 55/2 [July 2002], which I placed on June 30 of Year 21.

[..]

But the Aunt May clue is the odd one out; this story can't happen before May discovers Peter's secret ID. If we have to make that fit, then we're talking about placement after One More Day. The problem with that is OMD occurs after World War Hulk, and the Hulk's presence here after WWH is problematic.

Um...how ignorable is May's ignorance of Peter's ID?
<<<

I think you mean "can't happen AFTER".

And he said Iron Man's in his Extremis armour. Placing it with 2001 comics is like placing a Silver Centurion-clad appearance around IM150.

			*	*	*

Mar 02, 2008 6:40 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yup, that's right. So we're left with ignoring whatever reference there is to Aunt May's not knowing Peter's ID...or rationalizing or reinterpreting it somehow.

Paul B.

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Mar 03, 2008 12:39 am 
By Jason Doty

O.K, I appear to be the only one with this comic, and do not follow any of the characters on a regular basis.
So here goes, In the story clues:

Iron Man is wearing the armor he currently wears. His Identity is publically known and he is introduced as the CEO of Stark Enterprises. 

The Fantastic Four are wearing their uniforms that are reminisent to me of the of art I saw by Weiringo, with Thing wearing pants on his uniform.

Spidey is wearing his classic red and blue, and leaves to change into costume, so Aunt May won't see. 

Banner is working and says he hasn't changed into the Hulk for a while.

Valeria looks slightly smaller than Franklin.

Sandman is wearing his classic duds.

With every ones comments and the issue coming out in 2007, I also now believe if this comic has a chance at making the canon list it has to take place after BND and sometime in the future. So I guess we'll see. Sorry about the confussion.

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Mar 03, 2008 12:46 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Jason Doty wrote:
>>>
Spidey is wearing his classic red and blue, and leaves to change into costume, so Aunt May won't see.
<<<

Could this take place shortly after Aunt May discovers he's Spider-Man, but before he's comfortable with her knowing? Meaning, he could be changing away from her, so she wouldn't worry while he was out? Or is it specifically mentioned that she doesn't know he's Spider-Man?

-Daron Jensen

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Mar 03, 2008 4:03 am 
By dimadick

"Could this take place shortly after Aunt May discovers he's Spider-Man, but before he's comfortable with her knowing?"

May confronted Peter with her discovery in "Amazing Spider-Man" vol. 2 #38 (February, 2002). May still struggles to accept that her nephew was deceiving her for years. They have a heart-to-heart talk in "Peter Parker:Spider-Man" vol. 2 #50 (January, 2003) which helps her adjust to the idea better. The story could well fit in the period in between but for the armor Iron Man is seen using.

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Mar 03, 2008 7:19 pm 
By Jason Doty

It does not say specifically that she does not know Peter is Spidey. He leaves her saying the best way to protect her is as Spider-Man, but he lies to her saying he is going to take pics and she was curious what took him so long getting back.

I just went to an Iron Man sight and was curious, has Iron Man been wearing his current armor since 2002 around Iron Man no.50?

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Mar 03, 2008 10:22 pm 
By jephyork
Director

If the "Aunt May doesn't know" clue is more of an implication than a direct statement, then that's the one to fudge.

If it's more overt -- for example, if Aunt May *saw Spidey fighting* and still wondered what took Peter so long to get back, then Iron Man's armor is the detail to fudge. We can write it off as "art error".

If neither are fudgeable (if Tony refers to Extremis by name, etc.), then the book's probably plain old non-canon.

-Jeph!

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Mar 04, 2008 7:58 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Could Peter's "lie" about going to take pix and May's wondering what took Peter so long be interpreted as tongue-in-cheek remarks (and thus after May gets used to Peter being Spidey)?

If the Aunt May situation can be ignored or reinterpreted, then the limiting factor with a Spidey placement is that the giveaway must take place before Peter adopts the Iron Spidey costume, and so likely before The Other story arc that began in M/KSM 20.

Iron Man is currently in his Extremis armor, which is donned in the story arc IM4 1-6. It looks similar to the armor he wore in IM3 50, but there are differences. I have Tony donning the Extremis armor after the Other story arc. One clue: the tops of the Extremis armor's boots have a smooth curve; the boot tops of the IM3 50 armor have a "jagged" edge.

Valeria's being slightly smaller than Franklin certainly suggests placement quite a bit after her birth. If we're talking about placement just before the Other, then I estimate that Valeria's two years old at that point. This placement also happens to occur during baseball season in the calendar. If we're talking about the summer of Year 23, then the FF's costumes and the Hulk's status would need to be checked relative to other comics set during that period.

Paul B.

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Mar 04, 2008 9:42 am 
By Somebody
Director

Jason Doty wrote:
>>>
I just went to an Iron Man sight and was curious, has Iron Man been wearing his current armor since 2002 around Iron Man no.50?
<<<

Sort of. It's had three or four redesigns since then, but they've all been fairly subtle (there's been a general process of simplification - the HResque gold cables on the leg were the first thing to go, later the gold IM231esque side panels became red and were integrated into the main armour, the lines have been streamlined, and he's gone through several different helmet designs among other things).


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
If we're talking about the summer of Year 23, then the FF's costumes and the Hulk's status would need to be checked relative to other comics set during that period.
<<<

FF costumes are fine for almost the whole period from mid-2001 until the Millar/Hitch run starts (chronologically, that would appear to be after Secret Invasion, since the SI1 preview pages have Reed in his Pacheco costume). The only changes in that period were that Johnny briefly wore bulky gold armour, then a red variant in the latter Pacheco/Marin run because he couldn't flame off (sorted in FF3 54 by Doom as part of Valeria Richards' birth); some time in the Weiringo run Ben stopped wearing trousers & boots and changed to shorts, and Johnny and Ben briefly wore their Byrne black costumes in the BP/Storm/Torch/Thing Four.

Hulk... that's the big gap between HoM & him getting shot into space, ja? Where he's meant to be fishing in Alaska.

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Mar 04, 2008 10:45 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Hulk... that's the big gap between HoM & him getting shot into space, ja? Where he's meant to be fishing in Alaska.
<<<

Yes, but Banner/Hulk did make several appearances during this gap:

H:D 1-4 -- at the Pentagon
AAF2 15 -- in the Southwest
SENTRY2 3-8 -- from the Cascades to New York
FNSM 2 -- in the Southwest
FF 523 -- the big Vegas brouhaha that led to the space shot plot
After this comes the fishing in Alaska.

Hmm. Maybe a slot right after SENTRY3 8 while Hulk is in the New York area? On the calendar (August 3), that would put the FF here between FOUR 27 and FF 527 (bumping Franklin's M/TU3 14/2 story), while the team still faces financial challenges. Spidey between TOXIN 6 and PULSE 13. Iron Man between W3 38 and PULSE 13. Sandman between CW:CS 1/6 and DOTD 4. Aside from the Aunt May/Spidey ID situation, is this doable?

Paul B.

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Mar 04, 2008 11:10 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Is that Franklin story the World Be Warned one that I suggested placing immediately (and pretty much literally so) after SENTRY2 8 to explain why it's Savage Hulk and why Reed would be running tests?

And why isn't "Mastermind Excello" (the AmFan v2 #15 story) placed in with Bruce Jones era stories as it's clearly intended to be, thanks to Bald Hulk?

[Will check later on your actual questions. Tired now.]

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Mar 05, 2008 7:57 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Is that Franklin story the World Be Warned one that I suggested placing immediately (and pretty much literally so) after SENTRY2 8 to explain why it's Savage Hulk and why Reed would be running tests?
<<<

It's this one...
MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #14/2
One "summer" day. Franklin wrecks his room by fooling around with Reed's new weather generator.

A World Be Warned story with Hulk? I must be missing something.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
And why isn't "Mastermind Excello" (the AmFan v2 #15 story) placed in with Bruce Jones era stories as it's clearly intended to be, thanks to Bald Hulk?
<<<

Care to suggest a specific placement?  


Any other considerations for placement of Triple-A the day after SENTRY2 8?

Paul B.

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Mar 05, 2008 11:51 am
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
Is that Franklin story the World Be Warned one that I suggested placing immediately (and pretty much literally so) after SENTRY2 8 to explain why it's Savage Hulk and why Reed would be running tests?
<<<

It's this one...
MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #14/2
One "summer" day. Franklin wrecks his room by fooling around with Reed's new weather generator.

A World Be Warned story with Hulk? I must be missing something.
<<<

Fury's analysis: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3259

You asked "About the fifth story in World Be Warned...any Hulk-o-philes care to place this one", and I said straight after SENTRY2 8, and Fury concurred.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
And why isn't "Mastermind Excello" (the AmFan v2 #15 story) placed in with Bruce Jones era stories as it's clearly intended to be, thanks to Bald Hulk?
<<<

Care to suggest a specific placement? 
<<<

Not hugely, since I dumped those issues a while back . Banner & the Hulk being bald leapt out at me though, since the BJ run is pretty much the only time when that's been the case.

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Any other considerations for placement of Triple-A the day after SENTRY2 8?
<<<

Jason said "Bruce has not changed into Hulk for a while." That wouldn't seem to fit with a placement after an extended period of Hulkishness.

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Mar 06, 2008 8:06 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
You asked "About the fifth story in World Be Warned...any Hulk-o-philes care to place this one", and I said straight after SENTRY2 8, and Fury concurred.
<<<

Totally missed the end of that thread.  

Thanks!

Paul B.

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Thread 26

Subject: Thor v2 67 & 79

Mar 06, 2008 7:19 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thor v2 #67
October, 2003

Appearances: 
Thor, Jake Olsen, Zarrko, Thailfi, Sif, Balder, Heimdall

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg9
As humand and Asgardians fight in the streets, Jake Olsen tries to give paramedic assistance to a downed Asgardian, but is threatened by some humans. Meanwhile, Thailfi stops Zarrko from using his navigator and Thor destroys the Mr. Smiths. As the fighting continues, freedom fighters place explosives throughout Asgard. 

References: 
On pg10, the explosives are detonated, creating a divergent future. Instead, happening at the same time

Thor v2 #79
July, 2004

Appearances: 
Thor, Zarrko, Sif, Balder, Jake Olsen

Synopsis: 
Pg20-pg24
Lord Thor of the future looks back into the past as Zarko prepares to use his navigator. Thor travels to the past and stops the freedom fighters as they place their explosives. He then joins Sif, Balder, and jake Olsen outside, where he meets his past self. Lord Thor remerges Thor & Jake, then turns into energy and merges with the past Thor, becoming one so that Thor will know what to avoid. 

References: 
T2 68-T2 79 (1-19) are in a divergent future, so the only character appearing would be Thor, being the only character to live through it all. 

A breakdown of pg24: 

(24:1) Lord Thors hand is seen as he merges Thor & Jake Olsen. 

(24:2) Lord Thor starts to turn himself into energy, saying that Thor will be mightier with the future knowledge of Lord Thor in him. 

(24:3) Lord Thor is now completely energy. 

(24:4) The energy of Lord Thor travels into Thor, merging with him. 

(24:5) Thor hears Lord Thor speaking. 

Lord Thor mentions that its time for him to leave this world, but the art shows him merging with Thor. Im taking the dialogue to mean that his personality will eventually dissolve as Thor absorbs his memories. 

Some placement suggestions: 

THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" [ASGARDIAN]

T2 65
T2 66
*T2 67 ~ T2 79
*T2 68
*T2 69
*T2 70
*T2 71
*T2 72
*T2 73
*T2 74
*T2 75
*T2 76
*T2 77
*T2 78
*T2 79 ~ T2 67
ASM2 57
ASM2 58

ZARRKO, ARTHUR

T2 66
*T2 67 ~ T2 79

THIALFI [ASGARDIAN] 
T2 67 is already in his chronology, he doesnt appear in T2 79.

SIF [ASGARDIAN]

T2 66
T2 67
*T2 79

BALDER [ASGARDIAN]

T2 66
T2 67
*T2 79

HEIMDALL [ASGARDIAN]
T2 67 is already in his chronology, he doesnt appear in T2 79.

-Daron Jensen

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Thread 27

Mar 06, 2008 6:43 am 

By Col_Fury
Director

Hawkeye v4 #1
December, 2003

Appearances: 
Hawkeye(Clint Barton), Barney Barton-FB

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2-FB
Clint practices his archery while his brother Barney watches. 
Pg3-pg25
Hawkeye goes to Florida and starts sticking his nose in other peoples business! 

References: 
Im focusing more on Hawkeyes early days here, and going light on the current portions of this series. If you want to see more detailed descriptions of the current day stuff check out Paul Bs Calendar, Year 22. 

Hawkeye v4 #2
January, 2004

Appearances: 
Hawkeye(Clint Barton), Trickshot(Buck Chisholm)-FB, Barney Barton-FB

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3-FB
Trickshot watches Clint practice his archery. Now that hes pretty good, He lets Clint in on his secret: stealing is fun and profitable! Afterwards, Clint runs into Barney, who tells Clint that Trickshots idea isnt that great. 
Pg4-pg22
Hawkeye hangs out with a stripper and investigates a mystery!

Hawkeye v4 #3
February, 2004

Appearances: 
Hawkeye(Clint Barton), Swordsman-FB, Trickshot(Buck Chisholm)-FB, Barney Barton-FB

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3-FB
Trickshot chats with Swordsman about debt. Then, intermixed scenes from A 19-FB, A 65-FB, & SOLOA 2-FB. 
Pg4-pg22
Hawkeye gets lucky with a librarian and watches a guy commit suicide!

Hawkeye v4 #4
March, 2004

Appearances: 
Hawkeye(Clint Barton), Barney Barton-FB

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3-FB
With one of his two legs now healed, Clint and Barney chat about the future. 
Pg4-pg22
Hawkeye watches a stripper get accidentally killed and is thrown in jail! 

Hawkeye v4 #5
May, 2004

Appearances: 
Hawkeye(Clint Barton), Trickshot(Buck Chisholm)-FB, Barney Barton-FB

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3-FB
Clint and Trickshot encounter Barney, intermixed with SOLOA 2-FB. 
Pg4-pg23
Hawkeye figures out the mystery and goes to Vietnam to check it out! 

Hawkeye v4 #6
May, 2004

Appearances: 
Hawkeye(Clint Barton), Yellowjacket(Hank Pym)-FB, Wasp(Janet)-FB, Black Panther(TChalla)-FB, Barney Barton-FB-BTS, Edwin Jarvis-FB

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3-FB
Hawkeye and the Avengers attend Barneys funeral. Hawkeye then goes back to the mansion where Jarvis gives him a letter from the FBI. It turns out that Barney was working undercover in the mob! 
Pg4-pg23
Hawkeye resolves the plot and punishes the villains! 

Hawkeye v4 #7
June, 2004

Appearances: 
Hawkeye(Clint Barton), Firefox, Black Widow(Natasha), Captain America(Steve Rogers)-FB, Edwin Jarvis-FB, Ringmaster II(Maynard Tiboldt)-FB, Bruto the Strongman-FB, Eden-FB

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3-FB
Clint confronts his boss Maynard Tiboldt about a robbery, then chats with his girlfriend Eden. 
Pg4-pg8
Hawkeye attacks a Russian mobster and is confronted by Firefox! 
Pg9-pg13-FB
Hawkeye spars with Captain America while discussing what to do about the recent death of a friend of his. He then visits his buddy Lefty, a one-armed archer. Later, he goes to his friends funeral. 
Pg14-pg22
Hawkeye fights Firefox, then researches his friends past. Later on his way across town, hes attacked by the Black Widow. 

Hawkeye v4 #8
August, 2004

Appearances: 
Hawkeye(Clint Barton), Black Widow(Natasha), Firefox, Henry Gyrich, Eden, Ringmaster II(Maynard Tiboldt)-FB, Bruto the Strongman-FB, Clown(Crafty Elliot)-FB

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3-FB
Clint discovers that the robbery was committed by members of the Tiboldt Circus. 
Pg4-pg23
The Black Widow takes off. The next day Hawkeye talks with Henry Gyrich before he leaves for Russia. Meanwhile, Firefox spies on Hawkeye. Later, Hawkeye looks into abandoned Russian missile silos in Russia, followed by the Black Widow. She reveals that shes the one who killed his friend, then theyre attacked by Firefox. Together they defeat him and destroy the silo. Later, Hawkeye meets Eden as shes released from prison. 

References: 
All of the present day placement suggestions are based on Paul Bs Calendar. 

Some clean-up:

A 65 (5:2-6:1)-FB repeats A 19 (7:5-7:7)-FB, no new information. 

A 65 (6:2-6:5)-FB repeats A 19 (8)-FB, no new information. 

SOLOA 2 (6:6-6:8)-FB repeats A 19 (7:5-7:7)-FB, no new information. 

SOLOA 2 (7:4-7:8)-FB repeats A 19 (8-9:4)-FB, no new information. 

Placement suggestions:

HAWKEYE/CLINT BARTON 
SOLOA 2 (2:8-4)-FB
A 19 (7:4)-FB
A 65 (5:1)-FB
SOLOA 2 (5-6:4)-FB
*HAWK4 1-FB
*HAWK4 2-FB
SOLOA 2 (6:5)-FB
A 19 (7:5-7:7)-FB
SOLOA 2 (6:9-7:3)-FB
A 19 (8:1-8:3)-FB
*HAWK4 3 (2:2-2:4)-FB
A 19 (8:4-8:6)-FB
*HAWK4 3 (2:5)-FB
A 65 (7:1)-FB
A 19 (9:1-9:2)-FB
A 65 (7:2)-FB-OP
A 19 (9:3)-FB-OP
*HAWK4 3 (2:6)-FB-OP
A 65 (7:3)-FB
A 19 (9:4)-FB
*HAWK4 3 (2:7-3:1)-FB
SOLOA 2 (7:9)-FB
*HAWK4 3 (3:2)-FB-OP
SOLOA 2 (8:1)-FB
*HAWK4 3 (3:3-3:6)-FB
A 65 (9:1 - 9:2)-FB
SOLOA 2 (8:2-8:9)-FB
*HAWK4 4-FB
SOLOA 2 (9-10:3)-FB
*HAWK4 5 (1)-FB
SOLOA 2 (10:4-10:6)-FB
*HAWK4 5 (2:2-2:3)-FB
SOLOA 2 (10:7-10:9)-FB
*HAWK4 5 (2:4-2:7)-FB
SOLOA 2 (11:1-11:6)-FB
*HAWK4 5 (3)-FB
*HAWK4 7 (1-3)-FB
*HAWK4 8-FB
IM: IA 1
{TOS 57}

A 65
*HAWK4 6-FB
CA 114

A3 73
A3 74
A3 75
A3 76
*HAWK4 1
*HAWK4 2
*HAWK4 3
*HAWK4 4
*HAWK4 5
*HAWK4 6
A3 77
A3 78
A3 79
A3 80
A3 81
A3 82
A3 83
A3 84
*HAWK4 7 (9-13)-FB
*HAWK4 7
*HAWK4 8

SWORDSMAN/JACQUES DUCQUESNE 
SOLOA 2 (4)-FB
A 19 (7:4)-FB
A 65 (5:1)-FB
SOLOA 2 (5-6:5)-FB
A 19 (7:5-7:7)-FB
SOLOA 2 (6:9-7:3)-FB
A 19 (8:1-8:3)-FB
*HAWK4 3 (2:2-2:4)-FB
A 19 (8:4-8:6)-FB
*HAWK4 3 (2:5)-FB
A 65 (7:1)-FB
A 19 (9:1-9:2)-FB
A 65 (7:2)-FB
A 19 (9:3)-FB
*HAWK4 3 (2:6)-FB
A 65 (7:3)-FB
A 19 (9:4)-FB
*HAWK4 3 (2:7-3:1)-FB
SOLOA 2 (7:9)-FB
*HAWK4 3 (3:2)-FB
SOLOA 2 (8:1)-FB
*HAWK4 3 (3:3-3:6)-FB
ASPOT 22/2-FB
{A 19}


TRICKSHOT/BUCK CHISHOLM
SOLOA 2 (5-6:4)-FB
*HAWK4 2-FB
SOLOA 2 (7:9)-FB-OP
*HAWK4 3 (3:2)-FB-OP
SOLOA 2 (8:1)-FB
*HAWK4 3 (3:3-3:6)-FB
A 65 (9:1 - 9:2)-FB-OP
SOLOA 2 (8:2-10:3)-FB
*HAWK4 5 (1)-FB
SOLOA 2 (10:4-10:6)-FB
*HAWK4 5 (2:2-2:3)-FB
SOLOA 2 (10:7-10:9)-FB
*HAWK4 5 (2:4-2:7)-FB
SOLOA 2 (11:1-11:6)-FB
{SOLOA 1 ~ SOLOA 1/2}


BARTON, BARNEY 
SOLOA 2 (2:8-4)-FB
A 19 (7:4)-FB
A 65 (5:1)-FB
*HAWK4 1-FB
*HAWK4 2-FB
SOLOA 2 (6:9-7)-FB
*HAWK4 3 (3:2)-FB-OP
SOLOA 2 (8:1)-FB
*HAWK4 3 (3:3-3:6)-FB
A 65 (9:1 - 9:2)-FB
SOLOA 2 (8:2-8:9)-FB
*HAWK4 4-FB
*HAWK4 5 (2:2-2:3)-FB
SOLOA 2 (10:7-10:9)-FB
*HAWK4 5 (2:4-2:7)-FB-OP
SOLOA 2 (11:1-11:6)-FB-OP
*HAWK4 5 (3)-FB
A 64-FB
{A 64}
A 65-BTS
*HAWK4 6-FB-BTS

BRUTO THE STRONGMAN/ 
H 3/2
*HAWK4 7-FB
*HAWK4 8-FB
ASM 16


CLOWN/"CRAFTY" ELIOT FRANKLIN 
GR2 73-FB
{H 3/2}
*HAWK4 8-FB
ASM 16-BTS
ASM 22


RINGMASTER II/MAYNARD TIBOLDT 
XFOR -1
H 3/2
*HAWK4 7-FB
*HAWK4 8-FB
ASM 16


BLACK PANTHER IV/T'CHALLA

A 65
*HAWK4 6-FB
CA 114


JARVIS, EDWIN

A 65
*HAWK4 6-FB
JA 16-FB

A3 73
A3 83
*HAWK4 7-FB

WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM

A 65
*HAWK4 6-FB
CA 114


YELLOWJACKET/HANK PYM

A 65
*HAWK4 6-FB
CA 114


FIREFOX 
SSS 1
FOS 4
PUN3 5
PUN3 6
PUN3 9
PUN3 10
*HAWK4 7
*HAWK4 8

BLACK WIDOW II/NATASHA ROMANOVA

M/K2 5
M/K2 6
IM3 50
DD2 33-FB
A3 55
ALIAS 15
*HAWK4 7
*HAWK4 8

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN GRANT ROGERS

A3 83
A3 84
IM3 79
CA4 27
CA4 28
*HAWK4 7-FB

GYRICH, HENRY PETER 
...
A3 83
IM3 79
*HAWK4 8

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 06, 2008 8:14 pm 
By SeanCurtin

You don't have him listed in the chronologies, but "Jimmy Scully", who appears in #1-6, is the same character who was previously Skull the Slayer and Blazing Skull II.

			*	*	*

Mar 06, 2008 9:00 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Good catch, Sean!

I dont own any Skull the Slayer comics, but a quick internet search tells me hes already a vet as of the first issue of that series. Therefore, Ill suggest the Vietnam Flashbacks seen in this series go before the first issue of Skull the Slayer: 

SKULL/JIM SCULLY 
*HAWK4 3-FB
*HAWK4 4-FB
*HAWK4 5-FB
{SKULL 1}
SKULL 2
SKULL 3
SKULL 4
SKULL 5
SKULL 6
SKULL 7
SKULL 8
M/TIO 35
M/TIO 36
See Blazing Skull II

BLAZING SKULL II/JIM SCULLY 
From Skull
Q 45
Q 46
Q 50
CA 420
*HAWK4 1
*HAWK4 2
*HAWK4 3
*HAWK4 4
*HAWK4 5
*HAWK4 6

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Subject: Wisdom 1-6

Feb 26, 2008 8:14 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wisdom #1
January, 2007

Appearances: 
Peter Wisdom, Sir Mortimer Grimsdale, Tink, John the Skrull, Captain Midlands(Rambling Sid Ridley), Maureen Raven, O, Sir Clive Reston, Jack Tarr, Oberon, Jonathan Raven, Emma Frost-BTS

Synopsis: 
Pg1-FB
A woman is killed in Brighton by fairies. 
Pg2pn1-FB
A painter is killed on the South Downs by fairies. 
Pg2pn2-FB
Some archeologists at Long Barrow are killed by fairies. 
Pg2pn3-pg2pn4-FB: last night
The child of a cabinet minister is kidnapped by Oberon, King of the Fairies. 
Pg3-pg20
Sir Mortimer Grimsdale briefs Pete Wisdom of MI-13 on recent unprovoked attacks by Otherworld residents on British soil. He gets his team together, calls the X-Mansion, gives his team their mission, they get their weaponry and take off for Avalon. Meanwhile, Grimsdale runs into Reston & Tarr at the Crown Pub. Back in Avalon, Wisdom and his team storm the fairies castle and encounter Oberon. He had kidnapped the child to be an ambassador between their worlds, but agrees to give it back if his daughter Tink and Wisdom form a union,(arranged marriage) creating a covenant. They agree, and seal the deal in the forest. 
Pg21-pg22: a week later
Pete meets Maureens son, Jonathan. 

References: 
Brian Braddock, Captain Britain, is referenced as used to be involved with a pantheon that ruled Otherworld. This could be interpreted that Die by the Sword happened in the past, in that Albion took his place in omniversal duties at the end of that mini. I doubt that was the intent, as Die by the Sword was written and published after this was, but there it is. 

Petes on the phone with Emma Frost, we dont see her or hear her side of the conversation, giving her a BTS. Its not stated what theyre talking about, but its fairly obvious that hes calling for Kitty. Whenever this mini goes, it really should go before whatever happens to Kitty over in Astonishing.(which we wont find out what until April) Im not saying that Kitty should get a BTS, Im just saying she should factor into this issues placement. 

O is the Quartermaster. Thats his name: O. 

Wisdom #2
February, 2007

Appearances: 
Peter Wisdom, Tink, Jonathan Blatley, Maureen Raven, John the Skrull, Captain Midlands(Rambling Sid Ridley), Pantagruel

Synopsis:
Pg1-pg22
Wisdom wakes up from a bad dream and quickly discovers its not an isolated incident. Tink tells the team about the sleeping giant underneath them, so they try to put it back to sleep through Maureen. Unfortunately, Pantagruel the sleeping giant wakes up and starts to make a mess of things. She was buried with some giant guardian robots, and theyre tearing up the countryside. Maureen convinces Pantagruel that what shes doing isnt constructive so she wanders out into the ocean, with a town still on her head. 

References: 
When we look into the team members dreams, we learn that John the Skrull is a member of the Skrull Beatles! The other three are still out there somewhere

Even though Wisdom is technically married to Tink, he thinking about starting something with Maureen. 

Theres no mention of how long its been since last issue, but Im guessing not very. A week or two? 

Wisdom #3
April, 2007

Appearances: 
Peter Wisdom, Shang-Chi, Tink, Maureen Raven, John the Skrull, Captain Midlands(Rambling Sid Ridley),Dragon, Merlin-FB

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5
Wisdom starts a bar fight with a Welsh drug lord,(whos a dragon in human form, but he doesnt remember) then lets Shang-Chi do the fighting for him. 
Pg6-FB
A montage of the Dragons history. He fights other dragons, eventually is trapped by King Ludd, later is awoken(in human form) by a young Merlin, fights in several wars over the years, and eventually becomes a crime lord. 
Pg7-pg22
Wisdom leaves the bar and rejoins his team, handing out assigned posts to watch how the fight goes. As Shang-Chi fights the Dragon, Wisdom and Maureen fool around and the other team members talk about Wisdom and Maureen elsewhere. Shang-Chi reminds the Dragon what he is, and he turns back into his dragon form, putting the entire town to sleep. After more fighting the Dragon calms down and is arrested. Tink finds out about Wisdoms affair and Shang-Chi offers Maureen some advice. 

References: 
Wisdom and Maureen have been seeing each other for a bit now, so maybe a month or so since last issue? 

With Shang-Chi here, this issue either has to go before or after the recently cancelled Heroes for Hire. Given Kittys status in the first issue, and since time has passed between issue 1 & 3, and since the Heroes for Hire disbanded during World War Hulk, Im thinking this is after WWH. 

Wisdom #4
May, 2007

Appearances: 
Peter Wisdom, Tink, Maureen Raven, John the Skrull, Captain Midlands(Rambling Sid Ridley), Sir Clive Reston, Jack Tarr, Alistaire Stuart, Sir Mortimer Grimsdale, O, Jonathan Raven, James Ransom, lotsa Jack the Rippers from various universes

Synopsis: 
Pg1-FB: yesterday
Wisdom and his team are surrounded by lotsa Jack the Rippers!
Pg2: today
Wisdom debriefs Grimsdale, Reston, Tarr, and Stuart about his Jack the Ripper encounter from yesterday. 
Pg3-FB: yesterday, before pg1
O tells Wisdom and his team that the barrier between our universe and another is weakening, and that theres an energy link to trace. 
Pg4: today
The debriefing turns into an argument between Wisdom and Alistaire Stuart. 
Pg5-pg12-FB: yesterday
Tracking the energy link, Wisdoms team comes across a Rippermania tour host, James Ransom, the source of the trail. They each go home, where Tink and Maureen are separately attacked by different Jack the Rippers. They each kill their attacker. 
Pg13: today
The debriefing continues. 
Pg14pn5(of 6)-FB-FB
Last year, James Ransom is hit by lightning. 
Pg14-pg15-FB: yesterday
Wisdoms team interrogates James Ransom at his house, then investigate all the Rippers popping up al over town. 
-this is where pg1 goes-
Pg16-pg20-FB: yesterday
Wisdom and his team fight and kill all the invading Jack the Rippers. Menawhile, Maureen goes to Ransoms holding cell to try and turn his powers off. However, hes been in contact with just more than Rippers, and the strange creatures overpower her. 
Pg21-pg22
Reston & Tarr run out of the meeting. Later, Wisdom checks to see how Maureen is doing but her place has been ransacked. Jonathan comes out of hiding and tells Wisdom that two people named Sir Clive and Mr. Tarr took her away. 

References: 
Not long after last issue, maybe a day or two. 

Wisdom #5
June, 2007

Appearances: 
Peter Wisdom, Tink, Maureen Raven, John the Skrull, Captain Midlands(Rambling Sid Ridley), Sir Clive Reston, Jack Tarr, Alistaire Stuart, Sir Mortimer Grimsdale, James Ransom, Oberon-BTS, Jonathan Raven-BTS, Paul the Skrull-BTS

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6: same day as end of last issue
Grimsdale grills Sir Clive while Wisdom shakes down Stuart to find out where Maureen is. Meanwhile, Tarr explains that Maureen cant use her powers or terrible things will happen. Wisdom gets Ransom to track Maureen. 
Pg7-FB: some time ago
An alien craft has appeared, and Alistaire Stuart, Sir Clive Reston, and Jack Tarr investigate. 
Pg8-pg22
Ransom frees himself from Wisdom and tracks down Maureen. Wisdom follows, but Ransom gets away. Meanwhile, Tink calls her dad and John calls Paul to get the band back together. Ransom uses Maureen to rip open the barrier between universes, and the Martians begin their attack

References: 
The Flashback occurs when Alistaire Stuart was still in charge of what would become MI-13. 

Jonathan does not appear, but whats happening to him is noted, giving him a BTS. 

Oberon and Paul the Skrull are both on the other side of the phone, we dont see them or hear their side of the conversation, giving them both a BTS. 

Wisdom #6
July, 2007

Appearances: 
Peter Wisdom, Tink, Maureen Raven, John the Skrull, Captain Midlands(Rambling Sid Ridley), Sir Clive Reston, Jack Tarr, Alistaire Stuart, Sir Mortimer Grimsdale, James Ransom, O, Jonathan Raven, Oberon, Shang-Chi, Paul the Skrull, Ringo the Skrull, George the Skrull, Jonathan Raven, Captain Britain(Brian Braddock), Romany Wisdom-BTS

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg20: same day as last issue
The Martians have utterly destroyed London and Rippers are running loose all over the place. The Skrull Beatles have reformed to help, Oberon lends a hand, and Captain Britain swings by to save the day. The Martians kill Ransom and Wisdom rescues Maureen, but the dimensional gateway has been installed into her cellular structure. With no other options, Wisdom kills her. The Martians disappear, the invasion is over. 
Pg21: the next day
Shang-Chi breaks the news to Jonathan Raven that his mother is dead. He will begin to train him into the man that will eventually be Killraven!
Pg22: weeks later
Wisdom makes a phone call. 

References: 
Its not said who Wisdom calls at the end, but it seems to me that its his sister. Ive given her a BTS. 

Overall, this should probably go after Die by the Sword(Captain Britain) and WWH.(Shang-Chi) It should start at least before the current Astonishing arc, but it might not have to.(we could argue that the X-folks just didnt tell Wisdom that Kitty didnt come back from space, or whatevers going to happen) It also needs to go before Secret Invasion starts, because the first issue of the next series will be a Secret Invasion tie-in. 

If anyone didnt pick up this mini, you should get the trade. Its good! Im looking at you, Enda80. 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Feb 26, 2008 9:46 pm 
By loki

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Wisdom #1
Brian Braddock, Captain Britain, is referenced as used to be involved with a pantheon that ruled Otherworld. This could be interpreted that Die by the Sword happened in the past, in that Albion took his place in omniversal duties at the end of that mini. I doubt that was the intent, as Die by the Sword was written and published after this was, but there it is. 
<<<

The "used to be involved" is because he is not ruling Otherworld anymore, but it's not intended to be post-DBTS. The story is happening between New Excalibur adventures. 


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
O is the Quartermaster. Thats his name: O. 
<<<

And he is visually based on British "Carry On" films actor Charles Hawtrey.
http://www.humorlinks.com/humornet/file ... chxmas.jpg


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Its not said who Wisdom calls at the end, but it seems to me that its his sister. Ive given her a BTS. 
<<<

It's not Romany, it's Kitty.

			*	*	*

Feb 26, 2008 11:03 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

loki wrote:
>>>
It's not Romany, it's Kitty.
<<<

Ah, that makes sense. He finally gets ahold of her five issue later. 


loki wrote:
>>>
The story is happening between New Excalibur adventures. 
<<<

It would almost have to, given Kitty's possible status post-Astonishing. 

I guess this would have to go before Civil War then, thanks to Shang Chi. He's seen with Heroes for Hire during Civil War and through WWH, and I don't see him leaving to raise and train Jonathan Raven in the middle of that. It would have to be far enough in front of Civil War for Jonathan to be settled enough for Shang Chi to leave to join Heroes for Hire. 

Thanks loki!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 02, 2008 11:00 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
I guess this would have to go before Civil War then, thanks to Shang Chi. He's seen with Heroes for Hire during Civil War and through WWH, and I don't see him leaving to raise and train Jonathan Raven in the middle of that. It would have to be far enough in front of Civil War for Jonathan to be settled enough for Shang Chi to leave to join Heroes for Hire. 
<<<

Then I suppose Wisdom would appear in this series between XCAL4 7 and 8, and Shang-Chi would appear here between BP4 11 and HFH2 1. I'm leaning toward a calendar placement spanning late September to early November of Year 23.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 02, 2008 11:23 am 
By JD

Or maybe this could just go before HoM/Decimation ? It makes much more sense to have Wisdom head this MI-13 team when there's no New Excalibur around...

			*	*	*

Mar 02, 2008 5:48 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

That sounds logical. It means that the Wisdom series is even more of a "flashback" series, but I can see that placement. Before I change this, does anyone have problems with WISDOM going before HOM/XCAL4 1?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 02, 2008 6:18 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Before I change this, does anyone have problems with WISDOM going before HOM/XCAL4 1?
<<<

I would like to know how Captain Britain & MI:13 builds on this series before determining final placement, since a pilot for an ongoing becomes a different beast from something standalone.

The other thing is that Captain Britain was living on Otherworld from EXC2 until House of M, and NExc picks up on M-Day+1 with Brian confused as to how he's in the UK of his home Earth and where Meggan is, IIRC. He can't be said to be "used to be involved" until HoM at the very earliest, and seemingly doesn't cut ties properly until X:DBtS.

If this can be fit between WWH/X:DBtS & AX3 13-24+GSAX 1, I'd be far happier putting it there.

			*	*	*

Mar 02, 2008 9:40 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
If this can be fit between WWH/X:DBtS & AX3 13-24+GSAX 1, I'd be far happier putting it there.
<<<

If that works for Kitty, I'd be happier with that as well. It works better for both Brian & Shang Chi, and Excalibur would be more or less disbanded, which helps explain their absence when London is destroyed. 

There is something to be said about waiting until April for Captain Britain & MI:13, but I suppose we could always move it if it offers any more definitive placements.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 02, 2008 10:02 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
If that works for Kitty, I'd be happier with that as well. It works better for both Brian & Shang Chi, and Excalibur would be more or less disbanded, which helps explain their absence when London is destroyed.
<<<

Well, Paul B currently has three months between WWH & MCX. We know that Kitty is okay in X200-204, and that AXM almost certainly occurs between pages of X204 (where Paul B currently has a two-month jump). I think that's time enough for the calendar. 

And, for the MCP itself, these are mostly characters who aren't appearing elsewhere in this period, and it could hardly be simpler - an Emma BTS that can go any time she can take a telephone break, and a Shadowcat BTS that can go somewhere between X204 (18) and AX3 13 (17:2), and all the other characters don't need WISDOM split in their chronologies.

			*	*	*

Mar 03, 2008 11:03 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Well, Paul B currently has three months between WWH & MCX. We know that Kitty is okay in X200-204, and that AXM almost certainly occurs between pages of X204 (where Paul B currently has a two-month jump). I think that's time enough for the calendar. 
<<<

We're probably looking at the following sequence, then:

WWH -- Cain with Excalibur
XCAL4 24 (19-22) -- bye, bye Cain
X:DBTS 1-5 -- after Cain's departure; Excalibur splits up
X 204 (6-18) -- Kitty sighting
WISDOM 1-6 -- after Excalibur splits up; Kitty BTS
NX 37-41 -- Kitty here "two days" before NX 43
ASTONX3 ??-25 -- bye, bye Kitty
NX 42-43 -- start of Messiah Complex, "two days" after NX 40
X:MC 1 ties into X 204 (19-22)
Rest of Messiah Complex

ASTONX3 13-25 appear to be one uninterrupted story arc, but ASTONX3 13 must occur way back before NX 23, given the Danger Room references. Perhaps a big gap needs to go somewhere in ASTONX3 14. The bulk of this story arc needs to be squeezed into the day that occurs between NX 41 and 42. Yikes.

Last edited by Somebody on Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total. 

Reason: Paul was quoting me, but attributed it to Fury. Just fixing that. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 9:28 am 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
We're probably looking at the following sequence, then:

WWH -- Cain with Excalibur
XCAL4 24 (19-22) -- bye, bye Cain
<<<

Didn't we agree that was the other way around?


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
ASTONX3 13-25 appear to be one uninterrupted story arc, but ASTONX3 13 must occur way back before NX 23, given the Danger Room references. Perhaps a big gap needs to go somewhere in ASTONX3 14. The bulk of this story arc needs to be squeezed into the day that occurs between NX 41 and 42. Yikes.
<<<

As I recall, it needs two or three days.

And Jeph suggested here - viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3579 - that the break should be between panels 1 & 2 of page 17 in AXM 13.

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 7:52 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Yep -- that break in #13 is the only feasible gap in the whole story.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 10:59 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

By Jove, Somebody's right. I noted that XCAL4 24 (19-22) occurs before WWH:X 2 in the calendar entry for WWH:X 2, but neglected to move the XCAL4 24 (19-22) entry accordingly! Another Calendar correction! Glad this topic was brought up.  

And I'll work on that ASTONX3 13 split. It looks like the "two days" reference in NX will have to be stretched a little. More adjustments...

So does the placement of WISDOM (getting back to that) as described above make sense?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 05, 2008 11:42 am 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
So does the placement of WISDOM (getting back to that) as described above make sense?
<<<

As far as I can see.

And apparently, this week's UX will explicitly spoil Giant-Size Astonishing #1 (NOT Astonishing #25 - if the numbering isn't rebooted, that'll be an Ellis/Bianchi issue), so that locks it as being in the past once and for all...

			*	*	*

Mar 06, 2008 7:59 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

And apparently GSASTONX occurs "just a few weeks" before UX 496. That pretty much confirms the placement of the ASTONX3 story arc right before Messiah Complex, in that little window between NX 41 and 42.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 06, 2008 3:08 pm 
By jephyork
Director

No, no -- it has to be after NX #43 (or at least, after all but the epilogue). As I pointed out earlier, Kitty shows up in NX #43.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 06, 2008 10:47 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Right you are. So we split NX 43 between pages 20 and 21, and the first part really can occur two days after NX 38 (7-22). The ASTONX3 arc gets wedged into the NX 43 gap.

Does it seem like we're forced to insert gaps into nearly every comic that comes out these days? 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Subject: Captain America: The Legend

Mar 06, 2008 12:43 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Captain America: The Legend
September, 1996

Appearances: 
Captain America(Steve Rogers), Jack Kirby, Joe Simon

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3
Steve Rogers tries to get a drivers license, but is laughed at given his OBVIOUSLY ridiculous birth date. He gets a taxi to his old neighborhood and is shocked at the fare. He catches the news in a store front TV and is harassed by some youths, so he changes into his uniform and teaches them a lesson. They dont recognize him, so the nearby Jack Kirby yells out his window, comes downstairs and kicks the hooligans around. He tells Cap its good to see him again, and Joe Simon yells out the window at them. 

References: 
The news mentions that the Avengers recently found Captain America, placing this shortly after Avengers #4. Since Steve starts in street clothes and ends in his uniform, Ill suggest this goes directly before Sentinel of Liberty 5, where he's already in uniform. 

If the panel would just pan up, wed see Joe Simon, giving him an OP. 

KIRBY, JACK/JACOB KURTZBERG 
FF 10
*CA: TL
FF@ 3
SUB-M 19
IM 85
UX 98
FF 176

SIMON, JOE
CA: TL-OP

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS

A: EMH 1
A 4 (1-15) 
A: EMH 2 (1-15) 
A 4 (16-23) 
*CA: TL
CA: SL2 5
CA: SL2 6
SENTRY 1-FB
FF 25
...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 06, 2008 8:10 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

For some reason (probably the tight passage of time following A 4), I placed this story between panels 3 and 4 of page 3 of AVENGERS #5.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 06, 2008 7:43 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Either would work fine, I'm sure. 

Hey Paul, do you also have the other Legend one-shots?(Iron Man, FF, & Thor) If so, could you check to see if they also have new material?
-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 06, 2008 11:03 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I have the Iron Man and Thor one-shots. Iron Man has no new material, but Thor has a 3-page story set shortly after JIM 83. Blake sees his cane glow and he strikes it to become Thor. Mjolnir leads him skyward to the Rainbow Bridge and Asgard. Thor "meets" Heimdall and Odin. Hogun, Fandral, and Volstagg also appear. A raven-haired warrior woman is also seen -- Sif??

This story must occur before Thor summons Odin in JIM 85. I have Thor here between JIM 83 and 84. Odin between T 483-FB and JIM 85. Heimdall between JIM -1 and JIM 85. The Warriors Three between JIM -1 and THOR:GODSTORM 2-FB.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 06, 2008 11:11 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks, Paul!

And yeah, that sounds like Sif.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*


Thread 30

Subject: March Call for Analyses

Mar 01, 2008 10:14 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Time for a new call for stuff I'm not reading for the Calendar. Please look this list over, let me know if there are canonicity issues that force something out, or if I neglected to remove something that's been done, or if I mistook the assignee, or...if you'd like to sign up!  

Completed stories (as of 3/1/08)
Annihilation: Conquest  Quasar #1-4 (Somebody)
Annihilation: Conquest  Wraith #1-4 (Somebody)
Daredevil: Battlin Jack Murdock #1-4 (JD)
Immortal Iron Fist: Orson Randall and the Green Mist of Death (Don)

Future stuff
Annihilation: Conquest #1-6 (Somebody)
Angel: Revelations #1-5
ClanDestine v2 #1-5 (Don)
Daredevil v2 #106
Daredevil v2 #107
Daredevil: Blood of the Tarantula
Dead of Night Featuring Man-Thing #1-4
Foolkiller v2 #1-5
Franklin Richards: Not-So-Secret Invasion
Franklin Richards: Spring Break!
Ghost Rider v6 #20-23
Guardians of the Galaxy v2 #1-?
Immortal Iron Fist #10-14 (Don)
Logan #1-3 (Col_Fury)
Moon Knight v5 #14-19
Nova v4 #8-12 and Nova Annual #1 (Somebody)
Nova v4 #13-15
Punisher v7 #55-56 (Col_Fury)
Punisher v7 #57
Punisher War Journal v2 #18
Punisher War Journal v2 #19
Runaways v2 #25-30 (JD)
Spider-Man Family v2 #8
Wolverine: Origins #21-25 (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: The Amazing Immortal Man and Other Bloody Tales
X-Men Origin: Colossus

Any help that people can provide would be greatly appreciated. As always, thanks to all who post on this forum!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 01, 2008 11:35 am 
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Completed stories (as of 3/1/08)
Runaways v2 #25-30 (JD)
<<<

#30 has been delayed to April 9th.

			*	*	*

Mar 01, 2008 12:10 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Throw Nova Annual #1 in between Nova #10 & 11. That's where the few pages set in reality occur.

			*	*	*

Mar 01, 2008 3:57 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Throw Nova Annual #1 in between Nova #10 & 11. That's where the few pages set in reality occur.
<<<

Somebody, will you include a note to that effect in your analysis of Nova #8-12?


JD wrote:
>>>
#30 has been delayed to April 9th.
<<<

Okay. I'll move the Runaways entry to the future list. Thanks.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 01, 2008 3:59 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I was going to include it anyway.

			*	*	*

Mar 02, 2008 10:33 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Much appreciated! 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 06, 2008 11:54 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

You can put me down for Wolverine: The Amazing Immortal Man and Other Bloody Tales. 

I was thinking about analyzing Logan one issue at a time, but it turns out to be a FlashBack series to WWII. It's set in Hiroshima, or at least the first issue is, so I'll wait to see if a bomb is dropped in the next issue or two.

-Daron Jensen

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Mar 07, 2008 12:34 am 
By jephyork
Director

Anyone need an analysis of the free Secret Invasion Saga one-shot?

-Jeph!

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Mar 07, 2008 7:44 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I have a copy, so I don't need an analysis for the sake of the calendar. As far as I can tell, page 1 and the overall narrative is the only new material here. I'm sure there'll be discussion in another thread about the chronological implications of this comic.

Paul B.

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Mar 07, 2008 7:46 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
You can put me down for Wolverine: The Amazing Immortal Man and Other Bloody Tales. 
<<<

Thanks, Fury. 

Paul B.

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Thread 31

Subject: the TWELVE 2

Feb 07, 2008 4:45 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

the Twelve #2 
April, 2008 

Appearances: 
Black Widow(Claire Voyant), Blue Blade(Roy Chambers), Captain Wonder(Professor Steve Jordan), Dynamic Man(Curt Cowan), Electro Marvel of the Age!(robot), Fiery Mask(Dr. Jack Castle), Laughing Mask(Dennis Burton), Master Mind Excello(Earl Everett), Mister E.(Vince Jay), Phantom Reporter(Dick Jones), Rockman, the Witness(?), unnamed Colonel, Satan?

Synopsis: 
Pg1: same night as end of last issue
The Phantom Reporter stands over the body of the Blue Blade. 
Pg2-pg8pn3(of 4)-FB: continued from TWELVE 1 (20-21)
As the Twelve are driven across town in a bus, they chat about the future theyve found themselves in. When they arrive in their new home, provided to them by the government, theyre asked to continue serving America as heroes. The Colonel gives Captain Wonder the information he asked for, and he flies off to visit the graves of his wife and children. Meanwhile, the others begin to settle in. 
Pg8pn4-pg9pn3-FB-FB: the 1940s
Professor Jordan chats with his wife about him going to Germany to help fight in the War as they play with their boys. 
Pg9pn4(of 5)-pg11pn1-FB
Captain Wonder collapses at his wifes grave, apologizing that it took him so long to come home. Meanwhile, the Phantom Reporter thinks to himself. 
Pg11pn2-FB-FB: the 1940s
A montage of the Phantom Reporters career, ranging from reporter, to crime fighter, to spy smasher, to overseas Nazi fighter. 
Pg11pn3(of 3)-pg22-FB
The Phantom Reporter is brought out of thought by the sounds of a cargo truck being unloaded. Dynamic Man helps take the crate out and flies off, leaving the Phantom Reporter to watch as Electro is unpacked. Dynamic Man stops a drive by shooting, saves a kid from a fire, stops a liquor store hold up, and attempts to stop a robbery, until he realizes the victims are a mixed race married couple. Upon discovering this, he flies off. Back at the Twelves House, the Black Widow chats with the dark forces that give her her powers. Later that night, Rockman is restless; he cant sleep upstairs because hes too far away from the ground. So he moves into the basement and spends all night pounding on the foundation. 

References: 
The majority is all in one day, the same day as the end of last issue, discounting the time jump forward. Full moon. 

The Captain Wonder FlashBack is late 44/early 45. His sons were born in 40 & 42, according to their tombstones, and they appear to be 4 & 2, maybe 5 & 3 in the FlashBack. Steve & Caroline mention that the War in Europe is going well, and that the Nazis should be history in a few months. From their perspective, that could be anywhere from September 1944 up through March 1945, so there you go. As far as I can tell, Captain Wonder only ever appeared in the first two issues of Kid Komics, both of which were published in 1943, so having him take off for Germany in late 44 shouldnt be a problem. For those interested, I have this tentatively placed in early October, 1944. 

The Black Widow chats with SATAN! Originally, it was Satan that gave the Black Widow her powers, but Im not sure if its now intended to be Satan, Mephisto, Lucifer, or something else that did it.(because theyre all different guys these days) So until its clarified, Ill hold off on suggesting anything for whatever it is. 

Some placement suggestions:

BLACK WIDOW/CLAIRE VOYANT 
MARVELS 1 
TWELVE 1 
*TWELVE 2-FB

BLUE BLADE/ROY CHAMBERS 
TWELVE 1 (1-21)
*TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 1 (22)-BTS
*TWELVE 2-BTS
(hes dead at the end of issue 1, but his body is there, and it still is in the now portion of issue 2, giving him a BTS. Hes not actually there, but he is. Or at the very least, the Phantom Reporters actions are caused by the presence of his body)

CAPTAIN WONDER/PROFESSOR STEVE JORDAN 
*[KID KOMICS 1]
*[KID KOMICS 2]
*TWELVE 2-FB-FB
TWELVE 1 
*TWELVE 2-FB
(Kid Komics are in brackets because I dont have access to them to verify)

DYNAMIC MAN/CURT COWAN 
TWELVE 1 
*TWELVE 2-FB

ELECTRO/PROFESSOR PHILO ZOG 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/5 
TWELVE 1 
*TWELVE 2-FB
(Zog is dead and does not make an appearance in this issue, his name is just there as a placeholder until we see what happens with the Electro robot)

FIERY MASK/DR. JACK CASTLE 
HUMAN TORCH 2/6 
TWELVE 1 
*TWELVE 2-FB

LAUGHING MASK/DENNIS BURTON 
TWELVE 1 
*TWELVE 2-FB

MASTER MIND EXCELLO/EARL EVERETT 
TWELVE 1 
*TWELVE 2-FB

MISTER E./VINCE JAY 
TWELVE 1 
*TWELVE 2-FB

PHANTOM REPORTER/DICK JONES 
*TWELVE 2-FB-FB
TWELVE 1 (1-21)
*TWELVE 2-FB 
TWELVE 1 (22)
*TWELVE 2

ROCKMAN 
USA COMICS 1/4 
USA COMICS 2/5 
USA COMICS 3/5 
USA COMICS 4/6 
TWELVE 1 
*TWELVE 2-FB

WITNESS/ 
TWELVE 1
*TWELVE 2-FB

-Daron Jensen

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Feb 08, 2008 12:35 am 
By wolframbane

To help in later placement once the full series is available. The first issue during modern times occurs August 8 and a few days after. The flashforwards to the death of Blue Blade to occur "months" later, according to TWELVE 2.

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Feb 25, 2008 2:31 am 
By wolframbane

In TWELVE 2-FB-FB, there is a montage of events of the Phantom Reporter's life. Among the they show him working for the Daily Bugle with his editor yelling at him. We know this is the Daily Bugle from the papers hanging on the wall, and obviously different from the Daily Express that he was shown to work at in Daring Mystery Comics, he must have moved newspapers. Could this editor be the same as 'Old Man' Jameson, the WWII era editor of the Bugle?

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Feb 25, 2008 3:58 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Well, this guy's bald and overweight, and Walter 'Old Man' Jameson has a crew cut and a moustache. It might be too much of a stretch to say it's the same guy, though it would be nice if the Old Man didn't look so much like Jonah. 

-Daron Jensen

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Mar 08, 2008 10:00 am 
By lkseitz

My shop sold out of TWELVE #2 before I got there -- I'm hoping to get the reprint -- so I don't have it, but.... Newspapers consist of a hierarchy of editors and it's unlikely a reporter would report -- uh, sorry -- directly to the chief editor, which is what I presume Old Man Jameson was. (Come to think of it, it's really weird that Peter Parker would deal directly with JJJ, but I suppose JJJ takes a special interest in Spider-Man related stories.) So wouldn't it be safe to assume this guy is the news editor or maybe even a news editor for a particular NYC borough?

Lee K. Seitz 
Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

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Thread 32

Subject: Spider-Man/Dr. Octopus: Out of Reach 1-5

Mar 08, 2008 4:29 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

WARNING!
I copied & pasted the current day synopsis entirely from Paul Bs Calendar. I mean, TOTALLY copied & pasted. Im focusing more on the Dr. Octopus FlashBacks seen here, so Ill let Pauls work speak for itself: 

SPIDER-MAN/DOCTOR OCTOPUS: OUT OF REACH #1
January, 2004

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Dr. Octopus(Otto Octavius), Mary Jane Watson-Parker, Brigham Fontaine

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2-FB
DOCTOR OCTOPUS: THE EARLY DAYS!(see below)
Pg3-pg22
Doc Ock tries to rob a bank, but is thwarted by an impregnable vault. When he discovers that a youth named Brigham
Fontaine is responsible for the vault design, Ock goes after him at a party that night. Despite Spidey's intervention, Doc Ock
abducts Fontaine. 

References: 
Peter and M.J. are back together, and it is likely this story occurs after ASM 501. It is Mary Jane's birthday,
so this story must occur the same calendar day as PPTSS @ 9/3 (1-10). Peter mentions that he tutored Fontaine "last year at
Midtown High;" this indicates that Peter has been teaching for at least a year, and this placement puts this story after Peter's
second year of teaching.

SPIDER-MAN/DOCTOR OCTOPUS: OUT OF REACH #2 
February, 2004

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Dr. Octopus(Otto Octavius), Mary Jane Watson-Parker, Brigham Fontaine

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg3: The same day as SM/DO:OR 1. 
Doc Ock convinces Fontaine to help him break into the bank vault.
pg4-pg22: The day after SM/DO:OR 2 (1-3). 
Dock Ock attacks the U.S. Army Center Research Lab to fetch materials that Fontaine needs, and Spidey fails to stop them. Ock takes Fontaine to an underground lab where Fontaine whips up a belt with the power to destroy the bank vault. Spidey finds him there, and after a tussle with Ock, "rescues" Fontaine from Ock. Later, Peter chats with M.J. and Fontaine voluntarily returns to Ock at his Pier 75 lab.


SPIDER-MAN/DOCTOR OCTOPUS: OUT OF REACH #3 
March, 2004

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Dr. Octopus(Otto Octavius), Mary Jane Watson-Parker, Brigham Fontaine

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg4: The same day as SM/DO:OR 2 (4-22). 
Fontaine offers to help Dr. Octopus.
pg5-pg15pn2: Probably the day after SM/DO:OR 3 (1-4). 
Ock and Fontaine successfully break into the bank vault (on a day the bank is open) and steal the contents. News reports force Peter to end his and M/J.'s "make-up trip." Ock and Fontaine break into Central Bank Research Center so Fontaine can give Ock more power. Spidey intervenes but is defeated when Fontaine assist Ock. The bad guys head back to Ock's lair where they argue. 
Pg15pn3-pg15pn5-FB
DOCTOR OCTOPUS: THE EARLY DAYS!(see below)
Pg15pn6-pg22
Fontaine heads to a TV station with a plot and a weapon up his sleeve. 

References: 
Green trees and brown grass.

SPIDER-MAN/DOCTOR OCTOPUS: OUT OF REACH #4
April, 2004

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Dr. Octopus(Otto Octavius), Mary Jane Watson-Parker, Brigham Fontaine

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: The same day as SM/DO:OR 3 (5-22). 
Spidey and Doc Ock show up at the TV station and in the ensuing battle, Fontaine's mind is taken over by his weapon, which seeks a greater power source. Spidey and Ock follow Fontaine to a power plant.

SPIDER-MAN/DOCTOR OCTOPUS: OUT OF REACH #5 
May, 2004

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Dr. Octopus(Otto Octavius), Mary Jane Watson-Parker, Brigham Fontaine

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg21: The same night as SM/DO:OR 4. 
Spidey pursues Ock and Brigham to a chemical plant, then a nuclear plant, where Brigham almost becomes one with the machine, then nearly dies before being saved by Ock, who is defeated by Spidey. 
pg22: The day after SM/DO:OR 5 (1-21). 
Recuperating in the hospital, Brigham talks to news reporters.

References: 
Full moon seen on pg1-pg21. 

See what I mean? I verified character appearances, so here are some placement suggestions, based ENTIRELY on Paul Bs Calendar: 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER

ASM 506
*SM/DO: OR 1
*SM/DO: OR 2
*SM/DO: OR 3
*SM/DO: OR 4
*SM/DO: OR 5
PULSE 2


DOCTOR OCTOPUS/OTTO GUNTHER OCTAVIUS 

PPTSS2 8
PPTSS2 9
*SM/DO: OR 1
*SM/DO: OR 2
*SM/DO: OR 3
*SM/DO: OR 4
*SM/DO: OR 5

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE

ASM 506
*SM/DO: OR 1
*SM/DO: OR 2
*SM/DO: OR 3
*SM/DO: OR 4
*SM/DO: OR 5

(below) DOCTOR OCTOPUS: THE EARLY DAYS!

Out of Reach #1
Pg1pg1-FB
Mary Octavius watches her son Otto receive the award for outstanding achievement in science. 
Pg1pn2-pg1pn4-FB
Otto is beaten up by bullies. When he gets home his father Torbert yells at him for being a wimp while his mother Mary tells him not to listen. 
Pg1pn5-FB
Otto Octavius graduates high school. 
Pg2pn1-FB
Otto and his mother Mary stand at his fathers grave. 
Pg2pn2-FB
Otto shows his awesome new arms to his fellow scientists. 
Pg2pn3-FB
Otto is rejected by two female scientists. 
Pg2pn4-FB
Otto stand by his mothers grave. 
Pg2pn5-FB
Working with his mechanical arms, something starts to spark 
Pg2pn6-FB
and explode in his face! 

Out of Reach #3
Pg15pn3-pg15pn4-FB
Repeat of Out of Reach issue 1, pg2pn5-pg2pn6-FB. No new information. 
Pg15pn5-FB
Otto lies in a hospital bed, unconscious. 

ASMU 18 (6:3-6:4)-FB repeats ASMU 3 (4:3-4:5)-FB, no new information. 

ASMU 18 (6:5-6:6)-FB repeats ASMU 3 (6:3-6:6)-FB, no new information. 

SM/DO: OR 1 (2:1)-FB repeats ASMU 3 (6:3)-FB, no new information. 

ASMU 18 (10:4-10:7)-FB repeats ASMU 3 (18:2-18:8)-FB, no new information. 

ASMU 18 (13:5)-FB repeats ASM 3 (7), no new information. 

ASMU 18 (14:2-14:4)-FB repeats ASM 3 (9), no new information. 

ASMU 18 (15:2-15:4)-FB repeats ASM 3 (19), no new information. 

Some placement suggestions: 

DOCTOR OCTOPUS/OTTO GUNTHER OCTAVIUS 
PPTSS2 9 (5:1-5:3)-FB
*SM/DO: OR 1 (1:1-1:4)-FB
ASMU 18 (6:2)-FB
ASMU 3 (4:2-4:5)-FB
*SM/DO: OR 1 (1:5)-FB
PPTSS2 9 (5:4-6:4)-FB
PPTSS2 9 (7)-FB
ASMU 3 (6:3-6:6)-FB
ASMU 18 (7:3-7:5)-FB
*SM/DO: OR 1 (2:2)-FB
ASMU 3 (9:2-9:5)-FB
ASMU 18 (8:3-8:4)-FB
ASMU 18 (9:3)-FB
ASMU 3 (14:2-14:3)-FB
ASMU 18 (9:4)-FB
ASMU 3 (14:4)-FB
ASMU 18 (9:5)-FB
ASMU 3 (14:5)-FB
*SM/DO: OR 1 (2:3)-FB
ASMU 3 (18:2-18:8)-FB
*SM/DO: OR 1 (2:4)-FB
{ASM 3 (1-3:2)}
ASMU 3 (19:1)-FB
ASMU 18 (11:1)-FB
ASM 3 (3:3-3:6)
ASMU 3 (19:2)-FB
ASMU 18 (11:2)-FB
*SM/DO: OR 1 (2:5-2:6)-FB
ASMU 3 (19:3)-FB
ASMU 18 (11:3)-FB
ASM 3 (4:1-4:3)
ASMU 18 (12:2-12:3)-FB
*SM/DO: OR 3-FB
ASM 3 (4:4-5)
ASMU 18 (12:4-12:5)-FB
ASM 3 (6)
ASMU 18 (13:4)-FB
ASM 3 (7-21)
ASMU 18 (16:3-17)-FB
DEF2 10


OCTAVIUS, MARY
PPTSS2 9 (5:1-5:3)-FB
SM/DO: OR 1 (1:1-1:4)-FB
ASMU 3 (4:2-4:5)-FB
PPTSS2 9 (5:4-6:4)-FB
ASMU 3 (6:3-6:6)-FB
ASMU 18 (9:3)-FB
ASMU 3 (14:2-14:3)-FB
ASMU 18 (9:4)-FB
ASMU 3 (14:4)-FB
ASMU 18 (9:5)-FB
ASMU 3 (18:2-18:8)-FB
SM/DO: OR 1 (2:4)-FB-BTS

OCTAVIUS, TORBERT
PPTSS2 9 (5:1-5:3)-FB
SM/DO: OR 1-FB
ASMU 3 (4:2-4:5)-FB
PPTSS2 9 (5:4-6:4)-FB
PPTSS2 9 (7)-FB
ASMU 3 (6:3-6:6)-FB-BTS

-Daron Jensen

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Mar 08, 2008 11:36 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis of Ock's early days, Fury. And I see I wrote "Dock Ock," you know...that place at the harbor. 

Paul B.

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Thread 33

Subject: What The--?! #15-16

Mar 08, 2008 4:18 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Im powering through my very large list of Things To Eventually Do this weekend, so heres a quick analysis of the only other two What The-?! issues I know of with canon (or, possibly-canon) stories in em

(Ive read every What The-?! comic except #17, 24 and 25, and apart from these two, Ive only found one other possibly-canon story  the Santa/Dr. Doom story in #10  which I analyzed a while back.)

For the record, Santa Claus Handbook-style entry in the Marvel Holiday Special 2006 references both What The-?! holiday stories (#10 and #16)  and the story from #15 is a Captain Ultra story that I see no reason to declare non-canon.

So here we go

--------

What The-?! #15 (story #4  or, if you count the gag ad for Tony Stork armor as a story, then this is story #5)
Captain Ultra in So How Goes The War?!, by Scott Lobdell and Dennis Jensen

Appearances:
Captain Ultra / Griffin Gogol
Stephanie, a counselor at Camp Gray
The Counselor in Chief
a big bunch of unnamed children

Synopsis: Due to a scheduling error, stand-up comic Griffin Gogol is performing at Camp Gray (he was supposed to open for the Elks Club, and Bubo the Clown was supposed to be performing for the kids). After his act tanks, everyone in the camp is suddenly taken over psionically by the Counselor in Chief, who wears a muscular exoskeleton and uses a government-issued psionic drain device to sap their wills and make them his own private army.

However, since Griffins powers work by force of will, the psionic device triggered his change into Captain Ultra  and after a brief fight, he defeats the Counselor and frees the childrens minds. As the story closes, Griffin (as Captain Ultra) performs for the kids, and is a huge hit. The camp name is changed from Camp Gray to Camp Rainbow to reflect his multicolored costume.

Placement clues  its summer. And the issue has a cover-date of November 1991, so Id place it between Captain Ultras appearances in M/CP #50 and Marvel Holiday Special 1991.

--------

What The-?! #16 (story #1)
Ant-Man in Ock Around the Christmas Tree, by Scott Lobdell and Marie Severin

Appearances:
Ant-Man II / Scott Lang
Cassandra Cassie Lang (later Stature)
Doctor Octopus
Santas elves
Santa Claus
Rudolph (yes, the red-nosed reindeer  spelled Rudolf here)

Synopsis:

Scott Lang is startled by a shout from the family room, and runs in to see his daughter Cassie under attack by a Darbie doll with four mechanical octopus arms! He destroys it, then investigates as Ant-Man (shrinking and FedExing himself overnight to the North Pole). He discovers that Dr. Octopus has locked up Santa and is forcing the elves to construct evil toys. Ant-Man shrinks Doc Ock and the two of them battle across the workshop, Ant-Man using his cybernetic helmet to crudely manipulate an army of toy soldiers. The battle is interrupted by Santa, who had freed himself. He enlarges both combatents, and Doc Ock  unable to bring himself to actually attack Santa  repents. Both of them help Santa load his sleigh, and Santa offers to give them a ride home. As Doc Ock sullenly accepts, Santa shrinks the enormous bag of toys to make room for everyone in the sleigh. Merry Christmas to all.

Placement clues  the narration claims that the story begins on December 24th, but given that Scott FedExes himself overnight to the North Pole, and *afterwards* Santa makes his annual gift-giving trip, the story must instead begin on the 23rd and end on the 24th. (Paul, the break is between panels 4-5 on p.2.)

Doc Ock is wearing his green-and-orange costume and his funky trapezoidal glasses. Ant-Man is in his traditional costume. I dont know enough about Doc Ocks chronology during this time to suggest a placement, but the issue is cover-dated January 1992.

Cassie Lang looks *tiny* - maybe four years old. She barely comes up past Scotts knee in the one panel with the two of them together.

The Marvel Holiday Special Handbook entry offers no placement clues for either What The-?! holiday story, and although it lists this one right after the Dr. Doom story, it doesnt explicitly say what order they occurred in, either relative to each other or to any other story referenced in the profile.

Notes  once again, the entire story is told in rhyme, including the characters dialogue. Id overlook it the same way weve overlooked it in previous holiday stories

--------

And there we have it, kids! Thoughts?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 09, 2008 3:06 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Jeph. I archived a copy of this review for my ever-postponed calendar efforts for '90s comics.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Subject: Deadline 1-4

Mar 13, 2008 2:31 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Deadline #1
June, 2002

Appearances: 
Katherine Kat Farrell, Human Torch(Johnny Storm), J. Jonah Jameson, Joseph Robbie Robertson, Ben Urich, Betty Brant, Paul Swanson, Carjack, Jimmy Lee, Josie, Turk, Juggernaut(Cain Marko), Philip Fishbone Betbeze, Third Rail, Judge(Michael Hart)

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg23
Daily Bugle reporter Kat Farrell interviews Johnny Storm after a fight in Union Square Park. She goes home to clean up, then reports to work. Betty Brant tells her of an opening at the crime desk and shes being considered, but only if she can get a big story in the next week. She hits the street and comes across a dead superhuman; Carjack. After chatting about it with CSI Jimmy Lee, she runs off to Josies Bar and asks Turk a few questions. She then heads back to the Bugle and looks into the mysterious death of Judge Michael Hart. After being given a hard time by fellow reporter Swanson, she heads off to a tattoo parlor where she sees the Juggernaut getting an X-Men tattoo. Later that night shes in another bar gathering her thoughts, where she follows a superhuman criminal Third Rail outside. He attacks her, but is stopped and killed by the ghostly Judge. She then meets up with Betty to go over her notes, then heads back home to discover her goldfish is missing. 

References: 
From Pauls Calendar: 
The content of a rumor web site, "Captain America: Who's Under the Mask Now?," suggests that Cap has resurfaced publicly after his presumed "death," which he would have done in the Kang War, and before the revelation of Cap's ID in CA4 3. Juggernaut appears here getting an "X" tattoo, so this story likely occurs after UX 413.

From Archive 46: SeanCurtin wrote:
My best guess places it between TB 75 & 76, given the presence of Hawkeye, Man-Killer (if that is her tending bar in #2), Armadillo (in his original costume) and Taskmaster (in his new costume). Any thoughts?Paul Bourcier wrote:
After much discussion about calendar placement, the Deadline limited series finally settled into a spot after Agent X #15, between TB 75 and 76, and between ASM2 55 and 56.SeanCurtin wrote:
Sounds good to me. Where does Deadline fit into the Human Torch's chronology?Paul Bourcier wrote:
The Torch is in Deadline between FF3 66 and 67.Deadline #2
July, 2002

Appearances: 
Katherine Kat Farrell, Paul Swanson, Dr. Pow, Eightball, Batroc the Leaper, Hawkeye-BTS, Man-Killer(Katrina Van Horn), Bullseye, Clown, Mr. Fear, Whirlwind(David Cannon), Armadillo, Taskmaster, Razorfist, Orb, Typhoid Mary(Mary Walker), Hammerhead, Vulture, Red Ghost(& his super apes!), Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Dr. Octopus(Otto Octavius), Judge(Michael Hart), Tinkerer(Phineas Mason), Tombstone(Lonnie Lincoln)

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg13
Kat wakes up and reports in at the Bugle, then heads off to do some investigating. She pays off a door guard named Eightball with an Oddjob(from the Bond movie Goldfinger) fixation with a hat, then goes inside to talk to Dr. Pow: Doctor to villains! She talks to him while he works on Batroc, then heads to Harts apartment, then to the Bar with no Name. She talks to bartender Mankiller, runs into Bullseye, and sees a barfull of villains. Once she leaves she stumbles across a fight between Spider-Man and Dr. Octopus. Shes then whisked away by the Judge. 
Pg14-FB
Michael Hart comes home to finds his wife dead and the killer standing above her. Hes then shot, as well. 
Pg15-pg18pn2
Kat and the Judge part ways, and she pays a visit to the Tinkerer. 
Pg18pn3-FB
The Tinkerer revives Michael Hart, but hes different
Pg18pn4-pg23
Kat and the Tinkerer finish their chat, and she heads off to meet with Betty. Later, Kat is confronted by Tombstone, then approached by the Judge. 

References: 
From Pauls Calendar(& by extension, the Archives): 
Batroc has been struck by an arrow fired by Hawkeye, so this story must occur after TB 75 (24-37). Since Mr. Fear is not in prison here, this story must occur before SM:BO 3-FB (16-18). The battle between Spidey and Doc Ock on the Flatiron Building is not the one shown in PPSM2 41 - the setting and choreography don't match. 

Deadline #3
August, 2002

Appearances: 
Katherine Kat Farrell, Judge(Michael Hart)

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg23
The Judge takes Kat on a tour of the Zeitgeist, a limbo for spirits not ready to move on. They watch a couple of re-enacted murders, then interact with the Judges memory of his wifes murder. When Kat reappears in New York, shes holding a candlestick she grabbed in the Zeitgeist. When she returns home she finds her stolen goldfish returned, in a box. 

Deadline #4
September, 2002

Appearances: 
Katherine Kat Farrell, Paul Swanson, Joe Robbie Robertson, Ben Urich, Tinkerer(Phineas Mason), Judge(Michael Hart), Betty Brant, Human Torch(Johnny Storm)

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg23
Kat talks to the police about the goldfish. Later, she talks to Harts doorman again, then her neighbor mentions she saw who came into her apartment. She heads to the Bugle with the police to arrest Paul Swanson. After chatting with Urich she puts the Hart mystery together and confronts the Tinkerer, where hes attacked by the Judge. He decides to let the Tinkerer go, and Kat decides not to run the story. She doesnt get the job, but is happy she has the respect of her peers, Brant & Urich. Once outside, the Human Torch flies by. 

References: 
Its revealed that the Tinkerer accidentally killed the Judges wife, so its him in that Flashback in issue 2. 

The abbreviation DL is already taken by DRACULA LIVES, so Ill suggest DLINE.

Some placement suggestions, based on discussions in the Archives and Pauls Calendar: 

FARRELL, KATHERINE KAT
DLINE 1
DLINE 2
DLINE 3
DLINE 4
PULSE 2

HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM

FF3 66
*DLINE 1
*DLINE 4
FF3 68


JAMESON, J. JONAH

ALIAS 20
*DLINE 1
PPTSS2 6


ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE"

ALIAS 10
SOLX 1
SOLX 6-VO
*DLINE 1
*DLINE 4
PPTSS2 6


URICH, BEN

ALIAS 20
*DLINE 1
*DLINE 4
PULSE 2
PULSE 1


LEEDS, BETTY BRANT

ALIAS 10
TW 20
*DLINE 1
*DLINE 4

CARJACK/ 
TS 1
*DLINE 1

JONES, JOSIEY 
DD 148
PUN 2
*DLINE 1

TURK II 

DD2 6
*DLINE 1
DD2 47

JUGGERNAUT/CAIN MARKO

UX 413
*DLINE 1
UX 416


THIRD RAIL
DLINE 1

JUDGE/MICHAEL HART
DLINE 2-FB
DLINE 1
DLINE 2
DLINE 3
DLINE 4

BATROC/GEORGES BATROC 

CA3 50/6
*DLINE 2

HAWKEYE/CLINT BARTON

TB 75
M/DS 2/2
*DLINE 2-BTS
A3 73


AMAZON III/KATRINA LUISA VAN HORN 
From Man-Killer
TB 67
TB 69
TB 71
TB 73
TB 74
TB 75
*DLINE 2

BULLSEYE/BENJAMIN POINDEXTER 

DD2 28
*DLINE 2
DD:T 1
DD2 48


CLOWN/"CRAFTY" ELIOT FRANKLIN

H2 471
DLOK3 4
*DLINE 2 

MR. FEAR III/PROF. LAWRENCE "LARRY" CRANSTON 
...
DD 375
*DLINE 2

WHIRLWIND/DAVID CANNON

TW 19
A3 71
*DLINE 2

ARMADILLO/ANTONIO RODRIGUEZ 
...
A:DV
TB '97-FB
*DLINE 2

TASKMASTER

AGENTX 14
AGENTX 15
*DLINE 2

RAZORFIST III 

W2 167
*DLINE 2 

ORB/DRAKE SHANNON 

ASPOT 21
*DLINE 2

TYPHOID MARY/MARY MEZINIS/"MARY WALKER"/"LYLA"/"BLOODY MARY"/"INNOCENT MARY"

DPOOL3 61
*DLINE 2
DD2 46


HAMMERHEAD II/

W2 164
PPSM2 50
*DLINE 2

VULTURE/ADRIAN TOOMES

GK 6
*DLINE 2
PULSE 2

RED GHOST/IVAN KRAGOFF

W2 164
W2 165
*DLINE 2

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER

PPSM2 50
*DLINE 2
PUN6 33


DOCTOR OCTOPUS/OTTO OCTAVIUS

ASM2 45
*DLINE 2
PPTSS2 14-FB
PPTSS2 6


TINKERER/PHINEAS MASON

A3 27-BTS
TW 13
*DLINE 2-FB
*DLINE 2
*DLINE 4

TOMBSTONE/LONNIE THOMPSON LINCOLN

TW 17
TW 19
*DLINE 2
ALIAS 26-BTS

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 13, 2008 7:50 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Thanks, man! Now we can move forward!


watching: we built this city

			*	*	*

Thread 35

Subject: Guardians (2004) #1-5

Mar 13, 2008 9:34 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Prior discussion - 

'2004 "Guardians" mini canon?' thread in MU
Short discussion or mentions in Archives 50, 54 and 55.

GUARDIANS #1
Writer: Marc Sumerak
Art: Casey Jones
"Reach for the Stars, part 1 of 5"

"Then" (pg 1-9)

Cast:
ARMSTRONG, VINCE
ARMSTRONG, NICK
PRESTON, CHARLOTTE "CHARLIE"
ROOSEVELT, MARTIN
YON, JIMMY
DRE'KK [ummm... alien]

Other characters:
ARMSTRONG, MICHAEL
ARMSTRONG, SHARON

Summary:
Vince Armstrong oversees his parents arguing. Rather than going to sleep, he sees a "shooting star" landing nearby and drags his older brother Nick and friends Charlie Preston, Martin Roosevelt and Jimmy Yon out to pretend to be heroes and search for it.

They end up saving an alien called Dre'kk from a dog, and Vince pretends to be captain of "the Guardians--the appointed protectors of this planet and its people." Dre'kk buys it, and hands him a triangular "medal" as thanks. He decloaks his ship and boards. Nick says no-one will believe them, and Vince says of course they will, they have the medal.
----

"Now" (pg10-23; c. fifteen years later)

Cast:
ARMSTRONG, VINCE
ARMSTRONG, NICK
PRESTON, CHARLOTTE "CHARLIE"
YON, JIMMY
DRE'KK [ummm... alien]

Other characters:
*Therapist (unnamed)
*Doctor (unnamed)
*"Brad" (BTS)
*Two aliens (unnamed in any real language)

Summary:
pg10-11
Vince is in therapy discussing the events. he's still clinging onto it. The therapist is adamant there's no such thing as aliens. It's Vince's birthday.

pg12-16
Outside, Nick is talking to a doctor about Vince when he emerges. Vince has been institutionalised before, for beating a teaching assistant up. Nick's practically written off their experience, and tries to get Vince to let go of it. They arrive at a suprise party for Vince where only Jimmy is waiting - "Martin's still in class, Charlie never called back". Jimmy still 'believes'. Vince asks for some time alone, and tells Nick he should go home to his wife and kid.

pg17-21:2
That night, Charlie finally shows up. She's Vince's ex-girlfriend, and they haven't seen each other for seven months. She hugs him.

She says that she missed the party because of work & study. Further reference to the incident which got Vince expelled, and she says he was the "strong one" and wants to know what made him snap - he says the TA tried to steal the "medal", and asks if it means anything to her. "Not anymore..." She "got tired" of people calling them crazy, pointing and laughing. And she couldn't put it behind her because of Vince. Her new boyfriend sounds the car horn, and she kisses him goodbye.

Once she's gone, he throws the "medal" in the fire and walks off.

pg21:3-23
Elsewhere in the universe, Dre'kk escapes a prison and sets course for Earth.
_________________________

GUARDIANS #2
Writer: Marc Sumerak
Art: Casey Jones
"Reach for the Stars, part 2 of 5"

Cast:
ARMSTRONG, VINCE
ARMSTRONG, NICK
ARMSTRONG, STACY [human - Nick's wife]
PRESTON, CHARLOTTE "CHARLIE"
ROOSEVELT, MARTIN
YON, JIMMY
GENERAL GALTHAN [big green lizardy alien]
COMMANDER KAR'NN [different orange alien]
PROFESSOR DIETRICH [human astronomer]
DRE'KK-BTS [ummm... alien]

Other characters:
*[Nick's kid]
*"Leo" (Starlight Diner cook)
*"Verna" (Starlight Diner waitress)
*"Brad" 
*Many unnamed aliens (including a blue-skinned humanoid wearing an old-style Kree Major helmet but an Alliance uniform, a Shi'ar, a Skrull, and one the same species as Dre'kk)

Summary:
pg1-4
"Sunrise"
Vince, Martin and Jimmy talk about their lives and how they suck in the diner where Charlie works. When Vince goes, he leaves a note for her to say he's given up on aliens.

pg5-7
"Elsewhere"

On the bridge of a vaguely shark-like starship, Dre'kk is traced to "a primitive planet in the delta sector", where he'd been once before, "long ago... just prior to his capture". The guy in charge, Commander Kar'nn, an orange alien with pupilless but human-shaped eyes, contacts General Galthan (a big green, lizardy alien - seriously, any aliens which resemble each other here are the exception, not the rule. Almost every one is significantly different from all the rest). Galthan has a grudge with Dre'kk, but promises to take him "breathing". He cloaks his ship and heads for Earth.

pg8-15
"Earth"

Starting his "work-study" in an observatory, Vince is happy, and this is remarked upon by his professor ("Professor Dietrich"), who comments that his demeanour is better, and he hasn't even assaulted one of his teaching assistants yet. Vince replies "I guess things are starting to pull together for me... and all it took was a massive mental breakdown, expulsion from college and psychiatric hospitalisation to get me here! [...] sorry [...] I was going through a rough patch. A fifteen-year rough patch", and the professor snides that "it's not like that oaf Tyler didn't have it coming."

Vince asks the professor why he didn't give up on him. The professor says he's spent his whole life studying the cosmos, and just because he hasn't seen it doesn't mean it's not out there. He doesn't know that he believes what Vince saw, but he believes Vince believed it, and that was enough.

They get back to work, the professor sees something unexpected and undocumented. Vince takes a look, recognises it, and runs off in a panic. He runs to the diner to see Charlie, and tells her Dre'kk is back. Having been happy, she feels taken in by the fact that he's relapsed from the note he left after, and when he grabs her arm, her boyfriend Brad decks him. After she introduces him to Brad, he's apologetic, but Vince just walks off and calls Nick, who gets freaked out and goes after him, leaving his baby with his wife Stacy.

pg16-18

Brad takes Charlie up to "passion point" in his pick-up truck. Hearing a strange noise, they get out, and there's a ship whose cloaking device fritzes above them. Charlie freaks and tells Brad to take her home.

pg19-22

Nick, Jimmy and Martin stand talking about Vince, and Charlie is dropped off beside them. She tells them about what happened, and Jimmy leads them to the spot from their childhood.

When they reach it, Galthan is holding Vince high in the air with one hand round his neck.
_________________________

GUARDIANS #3
Writer: Marc Sumerak
Art: Casey Jones
"Reach for the Stars, part 3 of 5"

Cast:
ARMSTRONG, VINCE
ARMSTRONG, NICK
PRESTON, CHARLOTTE "CHARLIE"
ROOSEVELT, MARTIN
YON, JIMMY
DRE'KK [ummm... alien] (also in FB)
GENERAL GALTHAN [big green lizardy alien, dies]

Other characters:
*Other unnamed aliens

Summary:
pg1-11

Galthan throws Vince at Nick, knocking them both out. The others start to run, but when Martin turns to get the fallen Jimmy, they're both in the point-blank sights of Galthan's gun... until Galthan suddenly falls, his back smoking. Dre'kk quickly reveals himself as their saviour. He doesn't recognise them as adults. On seeing Dre'kk, the already freaked Charlie falls to her knees and starts muttering about a bad dream for a minute.

He says he needs their help to find the Guardians. They're not sure what to do, until Vince & Nick arrive and Vince spills it, along with the fact that the "Guardians" weren't real. He's not happy, and demands the "medal" back.

pg12-14
"Soon"

It's excavated from the remains of the fire. Dre'kk's even less happy. He flashes back briefly, saying it's a data storage unit, and the key to finding a power source that the Alliance killed his people for. Dre'kk spent "years" as a fugitive, collecting the info, and as the Alliance caught up with him, he dumped it on them, thinking they wouldn't look for it on a non-Alliance planet.

Jimmy says he could probably retrieve some of the data.

pg15-19
"Inside Dre'kk's ship"

Jimmy does get some of the data off it. Vince volunteers to go with him. Jimmy, the only one not to go "WHAT?!?" says yes too. More "WHAT?!?"

Jimmy talks Martin into going too, and Martin pushes Charlie into it. Nick asks for a moment with Vince.

pg20
Outside

Nick's not going - he's got a wife and baby - but gives Vince his blessing.

pg21-22
"Soon"

Blast-off, as Nick waves bye.
_________________________

GUARDIANS #4
Writer: Marc Sumerak
Art: Casey Jones
"Reach for the Stars, part 4 of 5"

Cast:
ARMSTRONG, VINCE
ARMSTRONG, NICK
ARMSTRONG, STACY [human - Nick's wife]
PRESTON, CHARLOTTE "CHARLIE"
ROOSEVELT, MARTIN
YON, JIMMY
DRE'KK [ummm... alien]
CORRT [Shi'ar]
B'LEEM [green boggle-eyed alien]
QU'IRLL

Other characters:
*(unnamed alien)

Summary:
pg1
"Earth, Sunrise"

Nick's wife Stacy greets him, having lain awake all night worrying. He'll fill her in later, but thinks Vince will be all right.

On the TV, a report treats someone saying they saw a UFO as a madman, and reports that a local girl (picture shows Charlie, captioned as "CHARLOTTE PRESTON", as having gone missing, with her boyfriend the chief suspect).

pg2-9
"Elsewhere"

Vince gets spacesick. Charlie yells at Dre'kk that their new "flight suits were supposed to 'help protect us from the rigors of space travel.' All they seem to be doing is riding up into my Negative Zone." Dre'kk snaps that they'd have worked if he'd brought suits in the right size, and mutters that that would have required some truth on their parts.

They get caught in an Alliance "stasis field" (read: tractor beam). The Alliance prepare to board them. Dre'kk zaps the console with his gun and takes them to a hiding spot.

pg10-19
"Soon"

Corrt, a Sh'iar, and B'Leem - a green, emaciated humanoid with huge eyes, board. B'Leem complains he wants to get it over with - he's got a date with a skrull. Thinking it's nothing, they're puzzled to discover the bridge shot out, and realise they may be hostiles.

Meanwhile, Dre'kk & co run for the Alliance ship - but Jimmy has to go back for the data unit. When he reaches it B'Leem catches him, and recognises him as a human - "a bit far away from Earth, aren't we? You know, I've been saying for a long time, your planet would be a jewel in the Alliance's empire."

Jimmy elbows him in the stomach and runs... into Corrt, who recognises the "Earthling". As B'Leem joins him, he's about to shoot him dead, when Charlie comes in and whacks them both unconscious with a single swing of a lead pipe.

Charlie: "I didn't know you were religious"
Jimmy: "I didn't know you were She-Hulk"

They get back, and the door is sealed behind them. They've taken out the pilot in the meantime, but one more is left - a green version of the Commander Kar'nn model in an armoured weapons suit. Martin zaps him just as he clocks them.

pg20-22
"Soon..."

Dre'kk tosses the Alliance members into space, telling the humans only that they're "contained". Jimmy takes the exo-suit, due to his bad leg. The ship's otherwise empty. Vince gives an inspirational speech, and they get going.
_________________________

GUARDIANS #5
Writer: Marc Sumerak
Art: Casey Jones
"Reach for the Stars, part 5 of 5"

Cast:
ARMSTRONG, VINCE
ARMSTRONG, NICK
PRESTON, CHARLOTTE "CHARLIE"
ROOSEVELT, MARTIN
YON, JIMMY
DRE'KK [ummm... alien]
COMMANDER KAR'NN [different orange alien]

Other characters:
*(many unidentified aliens)

Summary:
pg1-5

They arrive at their target, an Alliance space station. Dre'kk will stay behind to direct them and teleport them back. He doesn't have the precision to drop them in the target, so he teleports them to a large room in the station's core - what it is, he doesn't know. He gives them four triangular "discs" to use to indentify the object so Dre'kk can teleport it, and them, out.

When he teleports them there, he implies they're going to die.

pg6-9

They arrive in the canteen. Jimmy stays to cover their retreat. Dre'kk's signal soon goes dead, jammed by...

pg10:1-10:3
"Elsewhere..."

Commander Kar'nn and so. He decides to handle them in person.

pg10:4-14
"Soon"

Jimmy catches up to them - he's shell-shocked, realising he may have killed some of the aliens.

They reach the storage bay, but Kar'nn arrives with two more... unique... aliens in suits like Jimmy's. He comments that "it's just like you humans to barge in and try to take whatever you want", and points out the deaths they've caused while one of the suited aliens grabs Vince. Vince throws his "disc" at the fourth corner of the power source, and tells Dre'kk that, if he can hear him, teleport.

pg15

The power source and the other three are safely teleported to their ship. Dre'kk calls Vince an "unfortunate loss" and prepares to get going, but the other three won't stand for it, and Jimmy threatens to teleport the machine straight back, with Dre'kk tied to it.

pg16-20
"Hours later"

Vince is in a cell, and a Skrull tells him he'd signed up "with the scum of the galaxy", and that he'd been conned. The skrull begins to explain why the Alliance is after him, when the wall is shot out and both Vince and the skrull are sucked into space.

Scenes from the series flash before Vince's eyes, when he's teleported onto their ship. He comments, once he can speak, that it's about time, and Martin says he'll have time to recoup on the way to Dre'kk's homeworld. Vince isn't happy, saying it's time for them to go home, but Dre'kk passes him onto the others. They explain that, especially since they'd given them "an extra slap in the face" by busting Vince out, "every ship in the galaxy" will be looking for them - and they don't want to lead them straight back to Earth.

Vince says they should have left him behind - they might have made it back in time - but Charlie says not a chance - after spending her "entire life afraid to believe - and now, thanks to you, I can again". The other three concur.

EPILOGUE 1

pg21

Vince sends a one-way message back to Nick's TV to say they're okay, but need to make a few more stops before they'll get home. Nick hopes they'll hurry home - the paper he was reading shows Brad's been arrested over Charlie's disappearance, and an alien body was found in woods.

EPILOGUE 2

pg22
Yep, Dre'kk's a bad guy. They actually retrieved an anti-matter detonator, giving his people "the power to triumph over the Alliance once and for all". Obvious setup for a sequel that never happened.
______________________________

Continuity notes:

Okay...

None of the references on Earth support placement in the MU. Actual aliens are unheard of, even by the professor who'd like to think they exist. The references to "She-Hulk" and "Negative Zone" are brief, jokey and don't require either to exist 'for real'.

Out in the cosmos... yes, some familiar aliens are tossed in, and yes some of the aliens recognise humans/Earth. However, a single, dominant alien empire composed of a seemingly infinite variety of species INCLUDING Kree, Skrulls and Shi'ar? How the hell does that fit? This isn't a brief thing. This has been going on for at least twenty-odd years and the implication is that it's been going on forever. If anything, the inclusion of the familiar species is a strike against in that context, since we know that the Shi'ar and Skrull have never had a single empire between them, except in the alternate future of CM4 20 - even before you consider the many and varied other aliens that mostly outrank the familiars that we see. And even there, they were still wearing their own species' uniforms, not the single "pressure suit" design here.

I say non-canon. Any further questions?

[I'll add the character listings in a separate post, in case I get overruled though.]

			*	*	*

Mar 13, 2008 9:45 pm 
By Somebody
Director

ARMSTRONG, VINCE
GUARDIANS 1 (1-9)
GUARDIANS 1 (10-22)
GUARDIANS 2
GUARDIANS 3
GUARDIANS 4
GUARDIANS 5

ARMSTRONG, NICK
GUARDIANS 1 (1-9)
GUARDIANS 1 (10-22)
GUARDIANS 2
GUARDIANS 3
GUARDIANS 4
GUARDIANS 5

PRESTON, CHARLOTTE "CHARLIE"
GUARDIANS 1 (1-9)
GUARDIANS 1 (10-22)
GUARDIANS 2
GUARDIANS 3
GUARDIANS 4
GUARDIANS 5

ROOSEVELT, MARTIN
GUARDIANS 1 (1-9)
GUARDIANS 2
GUARDIANS 3
GUARDIANS 4
GUARDIANS 5

YON, JIMMY
GUARDIANS 1 (1-9)
GUARDIANS 1 (10-22)
GUARDIANS 2
GUARDIANS 3
GUARDIANS 4
GUARDIANS 5

DRE'KK [ALIEN, UNNAMED SPECIES]
GUARDIANS 3-FB *The narration is fake, but I don't see why the pictures can't be real)
GUARDIANS 1 (1-9)
GUARDIANS 1 (10-22)
GUARDIANS 2-BTS
GUARDIANS 3
GUARDIANS 4
GUARDIANS 5

ARMSTRONG, STACY
GUARDIANS 2
GUARDIANS 4

GENERAL GALTHAN [ALIEN, UNNAMED SPECIES]
GUARDIANS 2
GUARDIANS 3

COMMANDER KAR'NN [ALIEN, UNNAMED SPECIES]
GUARDIANS 2
GUARDIANS 5

ARMSTRONG, MICHAEL
GUARDIANS 1 (1-9)

ARMSTRONG, SHARON
GUARDIANS 1 (1-9)

PROFESSOR DIETRICH 
GUARDIANS 2

CORRT [SH'IAR]
GUARDIANS 4

B'LEEM [ALIEN, UNNAMED SPECIES]
GUARDIANS 4

QU'IRLL [ALIEN, UNNAMED SPECIES]
GUARDIANS 4

			*	*	*

Mar 14, 2008 1:47 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Somebody! Somebody wrote:
>>>
The references to "She-Hulk" and "Negative Zone" are brief, jokey and don't require either to exist 'for real'.
<<<

Ah, so this is similar to the (relatively) recent Shanna the She-Devil mini.(by Cho) The men named her Shanna because she 'looked like the comic book character'. Shanna herself didn't appear there, and She-Hulk doesn't appear here. And that Shana mini was ruled non-canon. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
a single, dominant alien empire composed of a seemingly infinite variety of species INCLUDING Kree, Skrulls and Shi'ar? How the hell does that fit? This isn't a brief thing. This has been going on for at least twenty-odd years
<<<

Hrmn. You know, I could almost get on board with this, except: 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
If anything, the inclusion of the familiar species is a strike against in that context, since we know that the Shi'ar and Skrull have never had a single empire between them, except in the alternate future of CM4 20 - even before you consider the many and varied other aliens that mostly outrank the familiars that we see. And even there, they were still wearing their own species' uniforms, not the single "pressure suit" design here.
<<<

I don't know how that would work. If this is really happening 'now', or at the least the 'now' of 2004, the empire that's lasted at least twenty years would have been going strong since before Fantastic Four #1!(if you go by the sliding timescale) So how would the Kree/Skrull War fit into that? Assuming against a sliding timescale, how does this work with FF 262? Reed Richards was held on trial under Shi'ar law for saving Galactus. If there were an Alliance/Empire/Whatever, I really can't see the Shi'ar being out ranked by anyone after that display of galactic politics.(and that was 1984, 20 years our time before this mini) Or what about Operation: Galactic Storm, which was a Kree/Shi'ar war? Bah. 

Really though, with no established characters(not species, just characters) making an appearance, it's academic. Having said that, I'd have to say non-canon as well. Maybe, MAYBE a possible future, but definitely not current day 616 given the above.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 36

Subject: Marvel Knights: Double-Shot 4

Mar 14, 2008 11:34 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Marvel Knights: Double-Shot #4
September, 2002

Appearances: 
Iron Fist(Danny Rand), Jonas Harrow

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12
Iron Fist has been called in to avert a hostage situation. He fights his way through mutant cyborgs to find that the hostage is actually Jonas Harrow who forgot to take his heart medicine, and the cyborgs were only fighting intruders. No hostage situation after all!

Marvel Knights: Double-Shot #4/2

Appearances: 
Punisher, Black Widow, Daredevil, Gen. Jackson

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg10
Renegade SHIELD agent Gen. Jackson, former associate of the Back Widow, is robbing a bank. Daredevil & the Black Widow arrive to take care of it, but theyre tailed by the Punisher. DD & BW round up Jacksons men while the Punisher kills Jackson. 

Some placement suggestions based on Paul Bs Calendar: 

IRON FIST/DANIEL RAND

BP3 40
TB 57
TB 58-BTS
*M/K: DS 4
ORDER 5
ORDER 6
DD2 38


HARROW, DR. JONAS 

PPTSS 236
TSHLN
*M/K: DS 4

PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE"

M/K2 6
JLA/A 1
*M/K: DS 4/2
PUN6 16


BLACK WIDOW II/NATASHA ROMANOVA

M/K2 6
*M/K: DS 4/2
IM3 50
DD2 33-FB


DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK

M/K2 6
*M/K: DS 4/2
DD2 26


-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 37

Subject: Spider-Man/Kingpin: To the Death

Mar 16, 2008 2:55 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Spider-Man/Kingpin: To the Death 
November, 1997

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Kingpin(Wilson Fisk), Joe Robbie Robertson, Ben Urich, J. Jonah Jameson, Gloria Grant, Human Torch(Johnny Storm), Captain America(Steve Rogers), Mr. Fantastic(Reed Richards), Storm(Ororo Munroe), Rogue, Luke Cage, Wolverine(Logan), Cannonballs(Sam Guthrie), Thing(Ben Grimm), Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Foggy Nelson, Rosalind Sharpe, Mary Jane Watson-Parker, Anna Watson, Dr. Mindella, Zoltaro

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg40
A bunch of criminals are gunned down and killed by a guy dressed as Spider-Man! Meanwhile, the Daily Bugle is looking into a terrorist named Zoltaro, but once they hear Spider-Mans turned into a killer everyone goes crazy. After Jonah runs off a couple of headlines, every hero in town starts hunting Spider-Man. Elsewhere, its revealed that the Kingpin has set Spider-Man up. Meanwhile, Rosalind Sharpe tries to convince Foggy that they should be Spider-Mans lawyers, and Matt goes off to find him. Elsewhere, Mary Janes Aunt Anna lectures her & Peter about how awful Spider-Man is, now that hes turned killer. Later Daredevil finds Peter, he determines that he didnt kill anyone, so they team up. They eventually track the mess back to the Kingpin, stop his meeting with terrorist Zoltaro, and clear Spider-Mans name. 

References: 
Given when this was published, this has to go after Heroes Reborn: the Return 1-4. 

Since this is after the Return 4, its also after X-Men 71 for the X-Characters.(theres news coverage of the returning heroes)

Since Cap has his circular shield here, this has to go between issues 1 & 2 of volume 3 of his series. 

Given that, this would be around the time Jonah had a huge reward out for Spider-Man. Placing this one-shot here(but before A3 1) might go a ways to explaining why everyone would be so hot to trot when it looks like hes started to kill criminals, even though it makes no sense. 

Some placement suggestions: 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER

M/TU2 6
TB 10
*SM/K: TTD
FF3 2
SENSM 24-FB



CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS
...
TB 10-FB
*SM/K: TTD
A3 1


DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK

TB 10
*SM/K: TTD
M/KDS 1/2


KINGPIN/WILSON FISK 

S-M 87-BTS
*SM/K: TTD
M/KDS 1/2
ELEK 16
DD 375


ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE"

M/TU2 6
*SM/K: TTD
PPTSS 254-FB
SENSM 25


URICH, BEN

M/TU2 6-BTS
*SM/K: TTD
S-M 88


JAMESON, J. JONAH

M/TU2 6
*SM/K: TTD
SENSM 24


GRANT, GLORIA "GLORY"

S-M '97
*SM/K: TTD
SENSM 24-FB-BTS


HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM

CA3 1
FF3 1
FF3 2
S&L 2
IM3 1-BTS
*SM/K: TTD
TB 11
TB 12
SENSM 28


MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS

CA3 1
FF3 1
H2 462
FF3 2
S&L 2
IM3 1
*SM/K: TTD
A3 1
TB 11
TB 12
SENSM 28


STORM/ORORO MUNROE

X 72
*SM/K: TTD
UX 353


ROGUE/

UX 352
*SM/K: TTD
UX 353
 

CAGE, LUKE/CARL LUCAS

TB 8
HFH 4
HFH 5
HFH 6
HFH 7
*SM/K: TTD
SENSM 28


WOLVERINE/"LOGAN"/JAMES HOWLETT

X 71
X 72
*SM/K: TTD
ELEK 14


CANNONBALL II/SAMUEL ZACHARY GUTHRIE

X 72
*SM/K: TTD
XFOR 75
XFOR 76
UX 353
 

THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM

CA3 1
FF3 1
FF3 2
S&L 2
IM3 1-BTS
*SM/K: TTD
A3 1


NELSON, FRANKLIN P. "FOGGY"

DD 371
IM3 1
*SM/K: TTD
KZ4 15
KZ4 17
DD 373


SHARPE, ROSALIND

DD 371
*SM/K: TTD
DD 372


WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 

M/TU2 6
*SM/K: TTD
SENSM 24-FB


WATSON, ANNA

HR:R 1
*SM/K: TTD
SENSM 24-FB


-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 38

Subject: Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 6 & TOS 55

Mar 17, 2008 12:39 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Tales of Suspense 55 (1-4:3)
The Mandarin leaves to find Tony Stark, Iron Man frees himself and follows. The Mandarin grows bored and decides to go back and finish off Iron Man. 

-BTS-
Iron Man, for whatever reason, wraps himself back up in the trap to surprise the Mandarin. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 6 (1-8:2)
The Mandarin talks trash to Iron Man as he prepares to kill him. Iron Man activates his boot jets and destroys the trap, flying away while still attached. He circles back and fights the Mandarin, who runs off to his command center when he gets the chance. He begins the launch codes to fulfill his plans. Meanwhile, Iron Man makes his way to the command center. 

Tales of Suspense 55 (4:4-5:2)
The Mandarin adjusts some controls and Iron Man busts in. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 6 (8:3)
Iron Man blasts the Mandarin, who starts to talk

Tales of Suspense 55 (5:3-5:7)
but Iron Man cuts him off. They fight some more, and the Mandarin makes a comment. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 6 (8:4-10)
Iron Man asks what hes talking about, so the Mandarin explains. They fight some more. 

Tales of Suspense 55 (5:8)
Iron Man takes off to stop the launching missile. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 6 (11-13)
Iron Man flies after the missile. 

Tales of Suspense 55 (6:1)
Iron Man is under the missile. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 6 (14-15)
Iron Man grabs the missile and positions his boot jets. 

Tales of Suspense 55 (6:2)
Iron Man kicks the missile. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 6 (16)
Iron Man disables the missile and begins to fall. 

Tales of Suspense 55 (6:3)
Iron Man is caught by the Mandarins tractor beam. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 6 (17-18:1)
Iron Man goes back to the Mandarins castle. 

Tales of Suspense 55 (6:4-12:5)
Iron Man comes back to the castle and faces the Mandarin. After a fight, the Mandarin is defeated. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 6 (18:2-18:5)
Iron Man surveys the damage to the Mandarins castle. 

Tales of Suspense 55 (12:6-13)
Iron Man makes his way back home, where hes greeted by Happy & Pepper. 

Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 6 (19-22)
At Stark Enterprises, Pepper tells Tony that some S.H.I.E.L.D. agents are here to see him. After they try to strong arm him, Tony reminds them that hes the one that set up Project S.H.I.E.L.D. in the first place, and only six months ago at that, and shows them out. Later, he recharges his chest piece. Elsewhere, the Mandarin thinks to himself, angrily. 

References: 
Before the S.H.I.E.L.D. agents give Stark a hard time, he thinks to himself that he should redraft his proposal to recommend Nick Fury as Director of S.H.I.E.L.D.; Rick Stoner isnt really working out. 

Some placement suggestions: 

IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK 

IM: ETM 5 (21:4-22)
TOS 54 (12:5-13)
TOS 55 (1-4:3)
*IM: ETM 6 (1-8:2)
TOS 55 (4:4-5:2)
*IM: ETM 6 (8:3)
TOS 55 (5:3-5:7)
*IM: ETM 6 (8:4-10)
TOS 55 (5:8)
*IM: ETM 6 (11-13)
TOS 55 (6:1)
*IM: ETM 6 (14-15)
TOS 55 (6:2)
*IM: ETM 6 (16)
TOS 55 (6:3)
*IM: ETM 6 (17-18:1)
TOS 55 (6:4-12:5)
*IM: ETM 6 (18:2-18:5)
TOS 55 (12:6-13)
*IM: ETM 6 (19-22)
T: G 1
JIM 101


MANDARIN
...
IM: ETM 5 (21:4-22)
TOS 54 (12:5-13)
TOS 55 (1-4:3)
*IM: ETM 6 (1-8:2)
TOS 55 (4:4-5:2)
*IM: ETM 6 (8:3)
TOS 55 (5:3-5:7)
*IM: ETM 6 (8:4-18)
TOS 55 (5:8-13)
*IM: ETM 6 (19-22)
TOS 61


HOGAN, VIRGINIA "PEPPER" POTTS 

TOS 55
*IM: ETM 6
TOS 56


-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 39

Subject: Marvel Knights: Double-Shot 3

Mar 12, 2008 1:39 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Marvel Knights: Double-Shot #3
August, 2002

Appearances: 
Elektra Natchios

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg10
In Hollywood, Elektra is hired by a producer to kill a director, which she does through poison. 

References: 
This was written by Rucka, the writer of the ongoing at the time.(starting with issue 7) This was published the same month as issue 11. As noted here, theres a gap between issues 9 & 10, and issue 10 is where she returns to New York. Ill suggest this goes before she returns to New York: 

ELEKTRA/ELEKTRA NATCHIOS 
 
ELEK2 9
*M/K: DS 3 
ELEK2 10 
E: G&E 1
E: G&E 2
E: G&E 3
E: G&E 4 
PUN6 27 
ELEK2 11

(Paul B. has this between pg9 & pg10 of ELEK2 7, June 10, Year 20)


Marvel Knights: Double-Shot #3/2

Appearances: 
Cloak & Dagger(Tyrone Johnson & Tandy Bowen), Persuader(Ernest Evans), Smokin Joe(Joe Johnson)-FB

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg12
Cloak & Dagger visit Ernie Evans in South Boston, where he tells them he used to be a super hero with Cloaks grandfather. He then takes them to his basement, where hes been keeping a monster locked up for decades. 

References: 
Ernie was a super hero in the 50s, his name was the Persuader. Cloaks grandfather was called Smokin Joe, and there were two others in their group. We see them in a photograph, but we dont learn the names of the other two heroes. 

CLOAK/TYRONE JOHNSON

M/K 14
M/K 15
*M/K: DS 3/2

DAGGER/TANDY BOWEN

M/K 14
M/K 15
TB 57
TB 58-BTS
*M/K: DS 3/2

PERSUADER/ERNEST EVANS
M/K: DS 3/2-FB
M/K: DS 3/2

SMOKIN JOE/JOE JOHNSON
M/K: DS 3/2-FB
(Hrmn. Im not seeing this one on Pauls Calendar)

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 16, 2008 6:37 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hey, Fury. Is there a break between pages 3 and 4 of M/K:DS 3?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 16, 2008 8:47 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

In the Elektra story? Yes sir.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 17, 2008 6:55 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thank, Fury. I'll move the entries for the Elektra story and add an entry for the Cloak and Dagger story.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 40

Subject: Call 1-4

Mar 20, 2008 7:59 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Call #1
June, 2003

Appearances: 
Jeriah Halidon, Shannon Lawrence, Mick-FB, Sgt. Frank Gunzer-FB, Jennifer Montez-FB, Savannah Perez-FB-BTS, Col. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4
Evil rich guy Jeriah Halidon interrogates Shannon Lawrence about the events at the Knox building. 
Pg5-pg6
We see false FlashBacks as Shannon tries to lie about what she knows. 
Pg7pn1-FB: between COD: P 5 (2-3) & COD: B 5 (5-10:1)
Shannon watches as Sgt. Gunzer talks about biotoxins. 
Pg7pn2-pg10pn4
Evil rich guy Jeriah Halidon interrogates Shannon Lawrence about the events at the Knox building. 
Pg10pn5-11pn2-FB: between COD: W 4 (18:3) & (18:4)
Shannon & Jennifer make their way to the roof, while Sgt. Gunzer talks on the radio. 
Pg11pn3
Evil rich guy Jeriah Halidon interrogates Shannon Lawrence about the events at the Knox building. 
Pg11pn4-pg12pn4-FB
Repeat of COD: B 6, no new information. 
Pg12pn5-pg13-FB: following COD: B 6
Jennifer starts to mutate from the biotoxins while Shannon watches, Mick takes her to the hazmat team when the helicopter lands. 
Pg14
Evil rich guy Jeriah Halidon interrogates Shannon Lawrence about the events at the Knox building. 
Pg15pn1-FB
Mick is taken away by the hazmat team. 
Pg15pn2-pg15pn4
Montage of previous COD scenes. No new information. 
Pg15pn5-pg22
Shannon is killed, her body is taken away to be burned. As the goons try to light her up she awakes, and she kills them. Thats when Nick Fury arrives. 

References: 
Shannon Lawrence Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. as it turns out. Theres a lot of recapping in this issue, in case there was anyone buying this mini and not the previous series. 

The issue is narrated by Shannons dialogue from her debriefing by Fury. Next issue picks up after thats finished. It could be read that the entire issue is a FlashBack scene, but since the actual debriefing isnt shown, theres no now portion to FlashBack from, aside from the narrative dialogue. So just a clever narrative device, then. 

Call #2
July, 2003

Appearances: 
Col. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Shannon Lawrence, Mick, Jennifer Montez, Alberto Montez, Tony Stark, Lt. James MacDonald, Sgt. Frank Gunzer, Savannah Perez-BTS

Synopsis: 
Pg1
Nick Fury tells Shannon she did a good job. 
Pg2-pg3-FB: between CALL 1 (13)-FB & (15:1)-FB
The hazmat team takes Jennifer from Mick while Shannon watches. 
Pg4-pg5-FB: after CALL 1 (15:1)-FB
A S.H.I.E.L.D. agent finds the charred body of Lt. MacDonald. Meanwhile, Fury & Dugan coordinate rescue efforts. Alberto demands to see his wife. 
Pg6-pg22
Alberto visits Jennifer in the helicarrier sick bay, but she accidentally kills him with her new poison powers. Meanwhile, Tony Stark has been called in to supply a stasis chamber for MacDonald. Meanwhile, Fury tries to figure out who MacDonald is, since the firemen arent talking. Elsewhere, Sgt. Gunzer spontaneously combusts, so he shoots himself in the head. Later, Mick has brought in MacDonalds ex-wife to see if she can get him talking. Instead, he starts laughing. 

Call #3
August, 2003

Appearances: 
Col. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Jennifer Montez, Mick, Lt. James MacDonald, Sgt. Frank Gunzer, Savannah Perez-BTS

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22
Fury tries to figure out how Jennifer killed her husband. Meanwhile, Halidons men begin killing anyone connected to the Knox building incident and anyone they may have talked to. MacDonald gets a mobile stasis suit. Gunzer wakes up, mutated. 

Call #4
September, 2003

Appearances: 
Col. Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Jennifer Montez, Savannah Perez, Lt. James MacDonald, Sgt. Frank Gunzer, Mick, Jeriah Halidon

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22
MacDonald gets Jennifer to stop Halidons plans for the Statue of Liberty. Gunzer dies. MacDonald & Montez team up with S.H.I.E.L.D. to stop Halidon. Shannon dies, Halidon dies, Mick dies, MacDonald & Montez revert to normal. 

Some placement suggestions: 

DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM"

ORDER 6
*CALL 2-FB
*CALL 1
*CALL 2
*CALL 3
*CALL 4
CA4 10


FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH

A3 58
UX '01
*CALL 2-FB
*CALL 1
*CALL 2
*CALL 3
*CALL 4
CA4 2-FB
CA4 1


GUNZER, SGT. FRANK
COD: P 5 (1:1-1:3)-FB
COD: P 5 (20:3-20:5)-FB
{COD 1 (1-9:6)}
COD 1 (9:7-10) ~ COD: B 1 (20-21:3)
COD: B 1 (21:4-27:2)
COD: P 1 
COD: P 2 
COD: P 3 (1-8)
COD: W 1 
COD: P 3 (9-22)
COD: B 4 
COD: P 4
COD: P 5 (1-3)
*CALL 1 (7:1)-FB
COD: B 5 
COD: P 5 (4-22)
*CALL 2
*CALL 3
*CALL 4

HALIDON, JERIAH
COD: P 4
CALL 1
CALL 4

IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK
...
A3 62
*CALL 2
M/DS 4
...

LAWRENCE, SHANNON
COD: B 4
*CALL 1 (7:1)-FB
COD: W 4 (1-18:3)
*CALL 1 (10:5-11:2)-FB
COD: W 4 (18:4-21)
COD: B 6
*CALL 1 (12:5-13)-FB
*CALL 2-FB
*CALL 1
*CALL 2
*CALL 4

MacDONALD, LT. JAMES
COD: B 1 (1-19)
COD: B 1 (20-21:3) ~ {COD 1 (9:7-10)}
COD: B 1 (21:4-36)
COD: B 2
COD: B 3 (1-17)
COD: B 3 (18:1) ~ COD: W 1 (19:1) 
COD: B 3 (18:2-20)
COD: W 2 
COD: B 4
COD: B 5
COD: W 3
COD: W 4 
COD: B 6
*CALL 2-FB
*CALL 2
*CALL 3
*CALL 4

MICK
COD: B 1 
COD: B 2
COD: B 3 (1-17)
COD: B 3 (18:1) ~ COD: W 1 (19:1) 
COD: B 3 (18:2-20)
COD: W 2 
COD: B 4
COD: B 5
COD: W 3
COD: W 4 
COD: B 6
*CALL 1 (12:5-13)-FB
*CALL 2-FB
*CALL 1 (15:1)-FB
*CALL 2
*CALL 3
*CALL 4

MONTEZ, JENNIFER
COD: B 1 (1-19)
COD: B 1 (20-21:3) ~ {COD 1 (9:7-10)}
COD: B 1 (21:4-36)
COD: B 2
COD: W 1 (1-18)
COD: W 1 (19:1) ~ COD: B 3 (18:1)
COD: W 1 (19:2-20:2)
COD: W 1 (20:3-20:4) ~ COD: B 3 (19:1-19:2)
COD: W 1 (21)
COD: W 2 (1-3:1)
COD: B 3 (19:3-20)
COD: W 2 (3:2-21)
COD: B 4
COD: W 3
COD: W 4 (1-18:3)
*CALL 1 (10:5-11:2)-FB
COD: W 4 (18:4-21)
COD: B 6 
*CALL 1 (12:5-13)-FB
*CALL 2-FB
*CALL 2
*CALL 3
*CALL 4

MONTEZ, ALBERTO
COD: W 3
COD: W 4
COD: B 6
*CALL 2-FB
*CALL 2

PEREZ, SAVANNAH
COD: B 3
COD: B 3-FB
CALL OF DUTY #1 (1-9:6)
COD: B 1 (1-19)
{COD 1 (9:7-10)} ~ COD: B 1 (20-21:3) 
COD: B 2
COD: P 1 
COD: P 2 
COD: W 1 
COD: B 3 
COD: W 2 
COD: B 4 (1-5:4)
COD: B 5
COD: B 6
COD: B 4 (5:5-23)
COD: W 3 
COD: W 4 (1-18:3)-BTS
*CALL 1 (10:5-11:2)-FB-BTS
COD: 4 (18:4-21)-BTS
COD: B 6-BTS
*CALL 1 (12:5-13)-FB-BTS
*CALL 2-FB-BTS
*CALL 2-BTS
*CALL 3-BTS
*CALL 4

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 41

Subject: Starlord 1-3

Mar 19, 2008 8:19 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Starlord #1
December, 1996

Appearances: 
Sinindru Quarrel, Merimarth Quarrel, Sinjin Quarrel, Ship, Harith Damyish, Colonel Castonis

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg13pn3
Sinjin is born with gold eyes, meaning he has telepathic powers. His parents raise him for seven years, then hes handed over to the state(they have no choice, its mandated by law that telepathic folks do this) to be trained for police work.(kinda, its called being a Probiti. Think of the Old Republic Jedi Knights) He goes through training and graduates, but his powers suck so they stick him on some planet off to the side of the galaxy. When he arrives he learns of the corrupt political climate there, and Probitis dont last very long. He soon stumbles across an abandoned ship, and starts up a conversation. She has amnesia, but hes able to get a few things out of her: Shes Star-Lords ship. 
Pg13pn4-FB
Star-Lord was Peter Quill! He was given neat things by the Master of the Sun,(including the sentient Ship & his element gun) and he was supposed to be the first in a legion of Star-Lords. 
Pg13pn5-pg13pn6-FB
Star-Lord fights some lizardy aliens while the Master of the Sun watches. 
Pg14pn1-pg14pn3-FB
Star-Lord fights some guys in space! Meanwhile, Ship fights some other ships in space!
Pg14pn4-FB
Sinjins parents tell him about how super-cool Star-Lord is. 
Pg14pn5-pg32
She knows all of that, but doesnt know where Star-Lord has been for the last twelve years. She remembers an incident with a black hole, and thats why shes stuck here, but not what happened to Star-Lord. Sinjin then sets about regular visits to Ship, but this draws the attention of Lawgiver Damyish & his partner Col. Castonis. They go to the ship and attack, Sinjin puts on the Star-Lord uniform and pretends to be Star-Lord and scares them off. However, they stole a piece of Ship so they follow and attack Damyishs house. 

References: 
Sinjin names Ship Aurora, but I dont think that name is used anywhere else. Im pretty sure she just goes by Ship. 

Pg13pn4-FB is just a generic shot of Star-Lord, Ship, & the Master of the Sun. Its more of a this is what they looked like shot, not an actual scene. 

Pg13pn5-pg14pn3-FB is an actual scene, but I dont know if its repeated from anything previously published. I doubt it, so Ill just list it as his last appearance before the unseen Black Hole incident, which is before the FlashBack seen in Annihilation Conquest: Star-Lord 1. 

Starlord #2
January, 1997

Appearances: 
Starlord(Sinjin Quarrel), Ship, Harith Damyish,

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg32
Sinjin & Ship attack Damyishs house, then fly off into space. They come across a planet thats having problem with its volcanoes, and while taking care of it they realize this planet is where the element gun gets its powers. They then fly around, looking for Damyish, who still has the piece of Ship. 

Starlord #3
February, 1997

Appearances: 
Starlord(Sinjin Quarrel), Ship, Harith Damyish, Colonel Castonis, Sinindru Quarrel, Merimarth Quarrel, General Viz Glazgon

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg32
Sinjin & Ship track down Danyish, and follow him to a meeting with Gen. Glazgon. After a confrontation, Damyish reveals he has Sinjins parents, and will kill them if Starlord doesnt back off. Sinjin tricks everyone, destroys the piece of Ship, and reveals that Damyish is also telepathic, and hes been blackmailing Gen. Glazgon. With his parents saved, Sinjin decides to continue on as Starlord. 

References: 
Thats it for Peter Quill, really. This mini established that hes been gone for twelve years(or just a really long time) and thats where he was picked up in Thanos #8, more or less. This gap was filled in later with Annihilation Conquest: Star-Lord 1-FB. 

What I dont have are any of Star-Lords previous appearances; Marvel Preview 4, 11, 14, 15, Marvel Spotlight vol2 6 & 7, Marvel Premiere 61, Marvel Super Special 10, and probably one or two other things. Anybody have these? From what I can tell, these more or less followed each other, and then was picked up with this mini. Everything works out nicely. Until

Inhumans #4(October 2000, which I do have) shows Jason of Spartax in the then current day, interacting with the Inhumans. After an assassination attempt on Lilandra hes banished into space. Delphos sees into his future, where he will eventually ends up on Earth and father Peter Quill, and in turn looks into Peters future, who will eventually become Star-Lord. What? 

Anyway, here are some placement suggestions for this mini: 

STAR-LORD/PETER JASON QUILL 
... 
STARLORD 1-FB
AC: S-L 1-FB
THANOS 8
THANOS 9
THANOS 10
THANOS 11
THANOS 12 
ANNIHIL 1 
ANNIHIL 2 
ANNIHIL 3 
ANNIHIL 4 
ANNIHIL 5 
ANNIHIL 6
...

SHIP
STARLORD 1-FB
AC: S-L 1-FB
STARLORD 1
STARLORD 2
STARLORD 3

MASTER OF THE SUN
STARLORD 1-FB

STARLORD/SINJIN QUARREL
STARLORD 1 (1-3)
STARLORD 1-FB
STARLORD 1 (4-32)
STARLORD 2
STARLORD 3

So... any ideas on how to explain the Inhumans mess? Handbook A-Z #10 says that after this issue of Inhumans, Jason travelled space. He was eventually called back home to help in a new war, but accidentally time travelled backwards and ended up on Earth, fathered Peter Quill, then went back to his route home to help in the war. Then, during the war, Jason wanted to get Peter and his mother back with him. But wouldnt he have shown up before the war even started, if hes in the past? I dont get it. But then, I havent read any of Star-Lords 70s appearances, so maybe something in there would explain it.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 19, 2008 9:07 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I've been working on an analysis of Star-Lord's 70s stories for a while now - there is absolutely NO indication of time-travel in M/PREV 11.

Oh, and Ship was apparently destroyed from the inside out in Conquest: SL #1-FB. [Thanks to M/PREV 15 though, this actually isn't an insurmountable problem]

[FTR, the second-biggest problem after the Inhumans thing (notwithstanding the absolutely crazy-level interweaving his origin needs between M/PREV 4, M/SPT2 6-FB and M/PREV 15-FB) is the fact that the new framing sequence of the Star-Lord Special Edition (otherwise a coloured reprint of M/PREV 11) is set EIGHTY YEARS after M/PREV 11. And Star-Lord (Quill)'s still young. And the dating of 100 years since Jason's coronation and 80 years since he met the adult Peter/SL means that the years are longer, if anything, than Earth years, the aliens are just long-lived. And according to the Handbook, it's canon (Although the Handbook does propose a means of linking it and this mini that's utterly ruled out by Conquest:SL #1-FB).]

			*	*	*

Mar 19, 2008 10:24 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Oh, and Ship was apparently destroyed from the inside out in Conquest: SL #1-FB. [Thanks to M/PREV 15 though, this actually isn't an insurmountable problem]
<<<

That might go a ways towards explaining why she didn't remember what happened to Quill, if she had to heal/rebuild herself from scrap. She was able to reconstruct older memories, but not the recent ones related to the incident. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
 [FTR, the second-biggest problem after the Inhumans thing (notwithstanding the absolutely crazy-level interweaving his origin needs between M/PREV 4, M/SPT2 6-FB and M/PREV 15-FB) is the fact that the new framing sequence of the Star-Lord Special Edition (otherwise a coloured reprint of M/PREV 11) is set EIGHTY YEARS after M/PREV 11. And Star-Lord (Quill)'s still young. And the dating of 100 years since Jason's coronation and 80 years since he met the adult Peter/SL means that the years are longer, if anything, than Earth years, the aliens are just long-lived. And according to the Handbook, it's canon (Although the Handbook does propose a means of linking it and this mini that's utterly ruled out by Conquest:SL #1-FB).]
<<<

That Handbook issue was published before the Annihilation Star-Lord issue was, so they're stuck in the same place we are, now that new information has come to light. And as far as 12 years, 80 years, 100 years whatever goes, space-time is just different from Earth-time. I'm sure it could be translated into 'long time, longer time, even longer time'. 

Re: Inhumans 4
Is it possible that Delphos was just confused in the Inhumans issue? She had only recently gotten her seer powers, could she have been looking into Jason's past instead of his future... Would that fix things?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 20, 2008 2:50 am 
By dimadick

"I've been working on an analysis of Star-Lord's 70s stories for a while now - there is absolutely NO indication of time-travel in M/PREV 11."

That suggestion goes because his debute issue gives very precise timing for events.

1) The scenes where Meredith Quill gives birth to her son. Her husband Jake realises the baby looks nothing like him and assumes he has been cuckolded. He tries to kill it but he dies from a heart attack before being able to do so. The date is given as February 4, 1962. 

2) Jason Peter Quill does not fit in with other children and doesn't really care to do so either. He starts a fascination with science fiction shows and is thrilled to withness the moon landing. The date given is 1969. (The moon landing given (Historically both Apollo 11 and Apollo 12 landed in 1969). 

3) Peter discovers the scorched earth on the spot his biological father Jason of Sparta landed years ago. The discovery feeds his dreams about space and aliens. The date given is Spring, 1971. 

4) An assassination group of Ariguans, led by Rruothk'ar, arrives on Earth and assassinates Meredith. They were also supposed to murder her son but this was lost in communication and they just leave him behind mourning. The date is given as August 11, 1973. Peter is placed in an orphanage. 

5) Peter escapes from the orphanage and attempts to make it on his own. The date is given as February 4, 1975. 

6) Peter is a NASA trainee when he saves Greg Harrelson from an accident during training. When Greg tries to thank him, Peter comments that if Greg wasn't stupid there would be no accident. Peter has just made his first enemy among his fellow trainees. The date is given as November 11, 1987.

7) Peter is considered one of the most proficient graduates of the auronautics program but is not included in the Mars probe program because his superiors consider him unable to co-operate with any other astronaut. The date is given as June 7, 1989.

8) Peter has re-applied himself and finally makes it to space, aboard the Space Station Eve. The date is given as November 23, 1989.

9) The crew of the Eve are confronted by an image of the Star-Lord proclaiming that one of them would be recruited in that role within the next half-month. Peter volunteers but the crew chooses Greg Harrelson who has more space experience. Peter looses it and starts causing damages troughout the Eve. He is discharged from service and send back to Earth. The date is given as January 26, 1990.

10) Peter has stolen a scouthsip from Cape Canaveral. He makes it back to Eve and forcibly replaces Harrelson in the chamber where they are expecting the alien sentience to contact them again. He is instantly transported to the whereabouts of the Master of the Sun who begins his training. The date is given as February 9, 1990. 

Then the Inhumans story places all these events following an adventure of his father taking place in 2000. The choice of the Handbook writers was either to reject all dates and place the birth of Peter in the 21st century or assume that somehow Jason made it from 2000 back to 1962. Any other ideas?

			*	*	*

Mar 20, 2008 4:09 am 
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/shakatik.htm
Kryis Shakati appeared at Lilandra's coronation.

			*	*	*

Mar 20, 2008 4:32 am 
By Somebody
Director

dimadick wrote:
>>>
Then the Inhumans story places all these events following an adventure of his father taking place in 2000. The choice of the Handbook writers was either to reject all dates and place the birth of Peter in the 21st century or assume that somehow Jason made it from 2000 back to 1962. Any other ideas?
<<<

His dad time-travelled forward as a one-off, then returned to his own time to take part in the events leading up to Jason's conception & birth.

			*	*	*

Mar 20, 2008 8:26 am 
By loki

Somebody wrote:
>>>
His dad time-travelled forward as a one-off, then returned to his own time to take part in the events leading up to Jason's conception & birth.
<<<

I wrote the Peter Quill entry. Unfortunately your suggestion doesn't fit with Jason's Inhuman's appearance. The only options to have Jason banished so recently, with a precog predicting he will have a son in his relative future who will become Starlord, while also having that son be an adult Starlord in the current era, is to have Jason either travel back in time to father Peter, or Peter travel back in time after his solo adventures so that he is around now, in the current day. Given we were provided with dates for Peter's upbringing, and that his powers could easily allow him to sidestep the sliding timescale, the editorial decision was to go with Jason going back in time. Presumably his pursuers did likewise. The presence of a manned spacestation in the 1980s, where Peter worked for a while, isn't a big problem in a Marvel universe where we have Starcore orbiting the Sun in the current era and US space missions with astronaut John Jameson still visiting the Moon as recently as the last decade (Marvel time). They are ahead of us when it comes to space missions.

			*	*	*

Mar 20, 2008 6:29 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Given that these dates(1987, 1989, 1990) for Star-Lord were given in a comic written in 1977, meaning Peter becomes Star-Lord in '1990' in a comic published in the mid-70s, it seems fairly obvious that Star-Lord's adventures were meant to be taking place in the future. Then in 1997 a Starlord mini comes out where Peter Quill hasn't been seen in a while, meaning those adventures in 'the future' have been caught up to, now that we were past '1990'. Then Peter appears in Thanos, still no longer Star-Lord, in 2004. That all works out well with each other. 

Inhumans, however, doesnt. It seems that Pacheco & Marin liked the idea that Star-Lord was in the future, and put in a bit that placed all of those appearances further into the future, regardless of the dates given. Neat idea, but it just cant work given that Star-Lord is now cemented in the current day, thanks to Thanos & Annihilation. 

Since Star-Lord has to be in the current, it seems that Jason HAD to travel backwards to make everything work. This has the nice side effect of Delphos still seeing Jasons future, if not THE future. Ill have to side with loki on this one. 

So the only two questions I have left is; 
Did Jason travel back to the future to help out in this new war? Or did he just go back to his home planet, not knowing he travelled into the past?(meaning, he returned years before he was ever exiled in the first place) 

&

Somebody wrote:
>>>
And the dating of 100 years since Jason's coronation and 80 years since he met the adult Peter/SL means that the years are longer, if anything, than Earth years, the aliens are just long-lived. And according to the Handbook, it's canon (Although the Handbook does propose a means of linking it and this mini that's utterly ruled out by Conquest:SL #1-FB).
<<<

Well, the black hole thing was filled in by AC: S-L 1-FB, so the 'Jason's fate is unrecorded' line is now... recorded. I'm thinking the Star-Lord Special Edition framing sequence would follow the end of the war chronologically, and occur before his encounter with the Fallen One in AC: S-L 1-FB, so what's the problem? Is it just the 80 years/100 years Space Time thing?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 20, 2008 7:46 pm 
By loki

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Given that these dates(1987, 1989, 1990) for Star-Lord were given in a comic written in 1977, meaning Peter becomes Star-Lord in '1990' in a comic published in the mid-70s, it seems fairly obvious that Star-Lord's adventures were meant to be taking place in the future. Then in 1997 a Starlord mini comes out where Peter Quill hasn't been seen in a while, meaning those adventures in 'the future' have been caught up to, now that we were past '1990'. Then Peter appears in Thanos, still no longer Star-Lord, in 2004. That all works out well with each other. 

Inhumans, however, doesnt. It seems that Pacheco & Marin liked the idea that Star-Lord was in the future, and put in a bit that placed all of those appearances further into the future, regardless of the dates given. Neat idea, but it just cant work given that Star-Lord is now cemented in the current day, thanks to Thanos & Annihilation. 
<<<

Exactly. Someone has to be doing some time travelling, if Jason is in the modern day prior to Peter's birth but an adult Peter is also running around having already experienced his full run of previously depicted adventures. Given that, and given that for Jason the modern era appears to be his native one (because we see his entire world), the logical conclusion is that Jason did the time-travelling to begin with, with Peter later journeying into the future to meet his father. Though it should be noted that in both cases, the Handbook entry hedged it's bets by placing "apparently"s around the time-travel, since that element wasn't explicitly depicted in the original stories.


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Since Star-Lord has to be in the current, it seems that Jason HAD to travel backwards to make everything work. This has the nice side effect of Delphos still seeing Jasons future, if not THE future. Ill have to side with loki on this one. 

So the only two questions I have left is; 
Did Jason travel back to the future to help out in this new war? Or did he just go back to his home planet, not knowing he travelled into the past?(meaning, he returned years before he was ever exiled in the first place) 
<<<

Uncertain at this point. Without knowing the lifespan of the Spartoi race and how fast they age, it's open to speculation, though I'd presume Jason returned to his native era, if only to avoid running into his younger self.


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
And the dating of 100 years since Jason's coronation and 80 years since he met the adult Peter/SL means that the years are longer, if anything, than Earth years, the aliens are just long-lived. And according to the Handbook, it's canon
<<<
<<<

The handbooks run on the assumption that, unless told otherwise one way or the other by editorial, any story which can fit into existing canon should be included into canon too.


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
 (Although the Handbook does propose a means of linking it and this mini that's utterly ruled out by Conquest:SL #1-FB).
<<<

Well, the black hole thing was filled in by AC: S-L 1-FB, so the 'Jason's fate is unrecorded' line is now... recorded. I'm thinking the Star-Lord Special Edition framing sequence would follow the end of the war chronologically, and occur before his encounter with the Fallen One in AC: S-L 1-FB, so what's the problem? Is it just the 80 years/100 years Space Time thing?
<<<

I missed seeing this the first time I responded. As Col Fury noted, the Handbook came out before Conquest:SL, so that was new info. The entry itself is deliberately vague over the transition between the two points. We know Peter travelled with his father for a little while, and we know Jason isn't around now, but we had no inkling of how, why or where they got separated. Ship told Sinjin, Peter's successor, that they got separated when she was caught in a black hole - but she may have been lying, simplifying the story, or just plain wrong (she had sustained damage, so her memory could simply have been faulty). The entry noted that he MIGHT have got his implants due to damage sustained in this separation, but that was clearly noted as a speculation - we now know otherwise. And so on. The entry will be modified to reflect this new information when the Hardcover Handbooks roll round to S.

			*	*	*

Mar 20, 2008 8:09 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

loki wrote:
>>>
Uncertain at this point. Without knowing the lifespan of the Spartoi race and how fast they age, it's open to speculation, though I'd presume Jason returned to his native era, if only to avoid running into his younger self.
<<<

Until some future issue covers it, I'd have to assume the same as well. Thanks!


loki wrote:
>>>
The entry will be modified to reflect this new information when the Hardcover Handbooks roll round to S.
<<<

Sweet.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 42

Subject: Punisher MAX 55

Mar 21, 2008 2:23 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Punisher #55
May, 2008

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle), Col. Nick Fury, Col. Howe, Lt. Geller, 8 Army & Air Force officials

Synopsis: 
Pg1
A new book about the Punisher hits the stands!
Pg2-pg3
An excerpt from the new book Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher. 
Pg4-pg7: one night
The Punisher meets Nick Fury in a bar where they talk about the current political climate over drinks. Fury mentions theres a new book out about Frank, then lets him know that the Army & Air Force officials they dealt with over the Russian thing are putting together a plan to take care of him. 
Pg8-pg11: next day
The eight Army & Air Force officials discuss their plan to take care of the Punisher. 
Pg12-pg13
An excerpt from the new book Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher. 
Pg14-pg22: same day as pg11
The eight Army & Air Force officials settle their plan. Elsewhere, Col. Howe recruits Lt. Geller to head a strike force against the Punisher. Howe had submitted a plan for the Punisher a while ago, and now someone has finally taken him up on it. That night, the Punisher begins to put together a plan of his own

References: 
The Punisher is now healed from his fight with Barracuda from last issue. Its implied that it wasnt that long ago, so Ill suggest there be no appearances for the Punisher between issues 54 & 55. 

Theres a handful of Flashbacks to the Mother Russia story arc, but theyre reminder Flashbacks. No new material. 

Fury appears here in all likelihood before Secret Invasion starts. 

How does Fury know the eight officials are putting together a plan before they even finalize it? Hey, hes Nick Fury. 

Best line of the issue: 
Colonel Fury was mentioned, in the usual nervous whisper.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 21, 2008 6:49 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
The Punisher is now healed from his fight with Barracuda from last issue. Its implied that it wasnt that long ago, so Ill suggest there be no appearances for the Punisher between issues 54 & 55. 
<<<

No chance of WWH and the crossover PWJ2 issues going between issues #54 and 55? Or Force of Nature?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 21, 2008 12:47 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I wouldn't say there's NO chance, just that it wouldn't read very well in that order. Could issues 50-54 be moved a littler earlier to accomodate 55-56? Or move 50-54 later, to after WWH?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 21, 2008 9:33 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

If it's important to keep PUN7 50-55 together, then my inclination is to place the entire run after WWH and PWJ2 12. The thing with PWJ2 is that Castle hangs with Stuart Clarke throughout this series and there seems to be no mention of Clarke in PUN7. I'm really not sure how to order these two series relative to one another. PWJ2 is more grounded in the rest of the MU and calendar placements can be surmised based on that grounding, but PUN7 appears to be flexible enough to drop anywhere there's enough time for a story arc to happen. I dunno...maybe:

PWJ2 12 (WWH tie-in)
PWJ2 13-15
PUN:FON 1
PWJ2 16-17
PUN7 50-55

Ideas?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 21, 2008 10:26 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Place the whole of Ennis' Punisher MAX run before War Journal v2? Or even after?

The two series' tone and depiction of the lead character seems so at odds from what I've seen that interweaving seems... counter-intuitive.

			*	*	*

Thread 43

Subject: Call of Duty: Various

Mar 19, 2008 2:58 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

The various Call of Duty books(Call of Duty 1, Brotherhood 1-6, Precinct 1-5, & Wagon 1-4) all ran through each other, with characters from each book appearing in the others. There was a mystery subplot running through all the books, wrapping up in a crossover of sorts. It was a neat idea, its just too bad the books werent that good. 

The tagline was Reality-based stories starring New York Citys real heroes! Im not sure how reality-based flaming zombies and time travel is... In any case, the three books were cancelled pretty quick and the rest of the story was wrapped up in another mini, the Call 1-4, this time with SHIELD. 

I re-read these against Pauls Calendar entries, and I agree with his sequence of events. Forgive me, but I couldnt bring myself to do new write-ups, so I just copied what Paul already has. Verifying characters appearances was enough for me! 

July 28
CALL OF DUTY #1 (1-9:6)
One day. Police sergeant Frank Gunzer enters a hostage situation in which a man kills his daughter and shoots Gunzer's partner Sammy before being killed by backup cops. Gunz then sees a blond girl who speaks an ominous message of death before disappearing.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #1 (1-19)
The same night as COD 1 (1-9). While fighting a fire, fireman James MacDonald sees the blond girl, who gives the same ominous message of death before mysteriously vanishing again. The injured MacDonald is taken from the scene in an ambulance with EMT Jennifer Montez, but the ambulance encounters a car wreck.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #1 (20-21:3) ~ CALL OF DUTY #1 (9:7-10)
The same night as COD:B 1 (1-19). Montez encounters the blond girl and her disappearing act at the car wreck. Gunz shows up and they start to compare notes with MacDonald. This segment is noted in COD:W 1 as having occurred "the other day."

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #1 (21:4-27:2)
The same night as COD:B 1 (20-21). At the hospital, Montez, MacDonald, and Gunz compare notes about the blond girl. "9-11" is referenced in a scene with MacDonald and fellow firefighter Mick.

July 29
CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #1 (27:3-29)
The day after COD:B 1 (21-27). MacDonald is placed off duty for "seven days" and he watches his "brothers" go out on a call. Green trees in New York.

August 5
CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #1 (30-36)
One day, "seven days" (a "week") after COD:B 1 (27-29). MacDonald and company are called to a fire in a crack house. Green grass and trees in New York.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #2
The same day as COD:B 1 (30-36). Firemen Meat and Berelli encounter the blond girl in the burning crack house. Montez arrives on the scene and finds out about the sighting. Fireman Newmeier is badly burned.

August 8
CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #1 (1-11)
One day, long enough after COD:P 1 (1-9) for Sammy to recover from his gunshot wound. Gunz and Sammy try to nail a drug trafficking ring and Gunz visits his father at a nursing home. Green grass and trees on Long Island.

August 9
CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #1 (12-22)
Probably the day after COD:P 1 (1-11). Gunz is "not even officially a detective until next week." Gunz is woken from a dream about the blond girl to report to the Knox Building, out of which a drug dealer ran, ablaze. Gunz' brother Joey, a priest, talks about quitting the priesthood with Gunz' wife, Matty, at Coney Island Amusement Park, which is open and where we see green grass and trees. That night at his church, Joey sees the blond girl, then is saved by Gunz from an attack by drug dealers who were using the church as a communication point. Joey and Gunz tell each other about their encounters with the blond girl. Full moon.

August 10
CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #2 (1-7)
Probably early the morning after COD:P 1 (12-22). Gunz has a nightmare and goes out, only to see the blond girl, who leads him to a cemetery, where he is found by Sammy. Presumably later that morning, Gunz sees a psychiatrist about the cemetery and the girl. Probably later that day, Gunz' captain gives him "two weeks leave." Full moon and rain.

August 11
CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #2 (8-22)
Probably the day after COD:P 2 (1-7). While on leave, Gunz is taken by Matty and Joey to Big Bear Recreational Park, where we see green grass and trees. At a carnival there, one of dealer Checkers Freeman's goons tries to kill Gunz and Joey nails the would-be assassin. Joey tells Matty that he's had a thing for her and that he's quitting the priesthood.

Monday, August 12
CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #3 (1-4)
Probably early the morning after COD:P 2 (8-22). Matty has a dream about Joey.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #3 (5-8)
The same day as COD:P 3 (1-4). "It's almost five" and raining in Brooklyn when Gunz fights a brute in a bar and calls Matty to ask her to check on Joey. Gunz' promotion is scheduled for "next week."

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #1 (1-17:2)
The same day as COD:P 3 (5-8). COD 1 (9-10) is referred to as having occurred "the other day." Montez and partner Randy arrive on the scene of a shooting. Gunz is on the scene too, and he tells Montez that Joey saw the blond girl "a couple days ago" (in COD:P 1 (12-22). The blond girl appears again, says her name is Savannah, warns about a coming disaster at the Knox Building, and disappears. The EMTs take a victim to the hospital. Spidey makes a cameo.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #3 (1-2)
The same day as COD:W 1 (1-17). Savannah shows up in Newmeier's hospital room.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #3 (9:2-17)
The same day as COD:W 3-FB. It is "a year" after 9-11. "It's after six," and MacDonald and crew take the truck out to get groceries and they meet a living Savannah and her family.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #3 (9-21:4)
The same day as COD:B 3 (9-17). It's "six-thirty." Matty discovers that Joey retired from the church "yesterday" and she goes to Joey's place, only to discover the depth of his love for her. Gunz is shot when he and Sammy infiltrate Checkers' place to tell him to back off.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #1 (17:3-18)
The same day as COD:P 3 (9-21). Montez and Randy meet up with Said, another ambulance driver.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #1 (19:1) ~ CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #3 (18:1)
The same day as COD:W 1 (17-18). Said's ambulance explodes.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #3 (18:2-18:7)
The same day as COD:B 3 (18:1). MacDonald and crew respond to the explosion and Savannah waves goodbye.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #1 (19:2-20:2)
The same day as COD:W 1 (18:2-18:7). Montez and Randy rush to help Said.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #1 (20:3-20:4) ~ CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #3 (19:1-19:2)
The same day as COD:W 1 (19-20). Montez and Randy check Said and see what's happened.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #1 (21)
The same day as COD:W 1 (20:3-20:4). Montez and Randy face an animated, burning corpse.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #2 (1-3:1)
The same day as COD:W 1 (21). The burning corpse poses a threat.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #3 (19:3-20)
The same day as COD:W 2 (1-3). MacDonald and crew arrive at the scene of the burning corpse.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #2 (3:2-21)
The same day as COD:B 3 (19-20). The burning corpse kills Randy and makes off with the ambulance, and MacDonald and Mick jump on board to stop him. After making the ambulance crash, the firemen see the burning man heading to the Knox Building, where Savannah, who appears to Montez, says MacDonald will die today, "Friday, August 12." The day and date combination doesn't make sense, given that this story is supposed to occur a year after 9-11, which occurred on a Tuesday; so either the day or date can be considered a correct reference, but not both.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #3 - FB
The same day as COD:W 2 (3-21). "Two hours" before COD:W 3, Randy's animated corpse leaves the hospital morgue.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #4 (1-5:4)
The same night as COD:W 3-FB. Montez calls MacDonald and tells him not to go to the Knox Building, but the burning corpse heads there.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #3 (21:5-22)
The same night as COD:B 4 (1-5). Despite his injury, Gunz checks on the Knox Building with Sammy and encounters the burning corpse.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #4 (5:5-23)
The same night as COD:P 3 (21-22). MacDonald approaches the Knox Building, only to see Shannon Lawrence run out a ground-story window, pursued by the burning man, who is pursued by Gunz. The burning man gets nailed by a truck. Savannah appears to Montez and the firemen racing for the Knox Building, and she melds her ghostly form with Montez to give her a frightening vision of the future. Gunz heads up to the sixteenth floor of the Knox Building, and Montez catches up to MacDonald in front of the building, only to witness a man combust.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #4
The same night as COD:B (5-23). Gunz and crew head deeper into the Knox Building and face Halidon and his band of crazed junkies. Matty and Joey start to get intimate when Savannah appears to them to say that Gunz is being killed. Sammy gets killed, but Gunz subdues Halidon and as the junkie zombies birn, Gunz escapes the building. Matty and Joey arrive at the Knox Building; they meet Gunz, who knows what they've done.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #5 (2:3-3)
The same night as COD:P 4. Gunz walks away from Matty and Joey to return to his work.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #5 (5-10:1)
The same night as COD:P 5 (2-3). Gunz instructs the firefighters in the Knox Building to head to the roof, where they'll meet to deal with a stash of biotoxins he suspects is there. The firefighters encounter an injured woman named Isabella.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #3 (1-6)
The same night as COD:P 4. Zombie Randy commandeers the crashed ambulance and drives it into the Knox Building.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #5 (14:3-22)
The same night as COD:W 3 (1-6). The firefighters see the crashed ambulance from the inside of the building, then run into burning zombies.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #3 (7-10:4)
The same night as COD:P 4. MacDonald brings Randy down.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #5 (4-5)
The same night as COD:W 3 (7-10). Gunz re-enters the Knox Building and opens a door to an explosion.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #3 (10:5-20)
The same day as COD:P 5 (4-5). The explosion rocks the area, then a burning corpse falls out of the Knox Building. MacDonald goes up to deal with the fire, despite the warnings of Montez, who then calls her husband to tell him she loves him before going up after MacDonald.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #4 (1-18:3)
The same night as COD:W 3 (10-20). Montez' husband hires a helicopter pilot to fly him to the Knox Building, where Montez is saved from a zombie attack by Shannon, with whom she heads to the roof, where a bunch of biotoxin canisters pose a grave threat.

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #6 (2-7)
The same night as COD:W 4 (1-18). The firefighters continue to fight flaming zombies and Savannah approaches McDonald to tell him not to love her mother, Isabella.

CALL OF DUTY: THE WAGON #4 (18:4-21)
The same night as COD:B 6 (2-7). Shannon and Montez make it to the roof, where they find the biotoxin canisters set to explode in "two minutes."

CALL OF DUTY: THE BROTHERHOOD #6 (9:3-25)
The same night as COD:W 4 (18-21). Shannon and Montez prevent the explosion of the canisters, but Montez gets doused with biotoxin. Shannon, Mick, and the canisters get lifted off the roof by the helicopter carrying Montez' husband, but the exposed Montez must stay behind with McDonald. Randy's corpse shows up and McDonald sacrifices himself to defeat the corpse. Turned into a charred husk, McDonald survives.

CALL OF DUTY: THE PRECINCT #5 (6-22)
The same night as COD:B 6. (9-25). Matty and Joey go in after Gunz. Gunz and Joey end up saving Matty and escape from the building. Gunz leaves the scene with Maddy in an ambulance. Gunz notes that he's "still 'Sergeant' until Friday," an indication that the reference to it being "August 12" today in COD:W 2 (3-21) is probably correct, while the "Friday" is not.

Some placement suggestions: 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER

GK 1
*COD: W 1
SM:QL 1


GUNZER, JOE
COD: P 5 (1:1-1:3)-FB
COD: P 5 (20:3-20:5)-FB
COD: P 1
COD: P 2
COD: P 3
COD: P 4
COD: P 5

GUNZER, MATTY
COD: P 1
COD: P 2
COD: P 3
COD: P 4
COD: P 5

GUNZER, SGT. FRANK
COD: P 5 (1:1-1:3)-FB
COD: P 5 (20:3-20:5)-FB
{COD 1 (1-9:6)}
COD 1 (9:7-10) ~ COD: B 1 (20-21:3)
COD: B 1 (21:4-27:2)
COD: P 1 
COD: P 2 
COD: P 3 (1-8)
COD: W 1 
COD: P 3 (9-22)
COD: B 4 
COD: P 4
COD: P 5 (1-3)
COD: B 5 
COD: P 5 (4-22)

LAWRENCE, SHANNON
COD: B 4
COD: W 4
COD: B 6

MacDONALD, LT. JAMES
COD: B 1 (1-19)
COD: B 1 (20-21:3) ~ {COD 1 (9:7-10)}
COD: B 1 (21:4-36)
COD: B 2
COD: B 3 (1-17)
COD: B 3 (18:1) ~ COD: W 1 (19:1) 
COD: B 3 (18:2-20)
COD: W 2 
COD: B 4
COD: B 5
COD: W 3
COD: W 4 
COD: B 6

MICK
COD: B 1 
COD: B 2
COD: B 3 (1-17)
COD: B 3 (18:1) ~ COD: W 1 (19:1) 
COD: B 3 (18:2-20)
COD: W 2 
COD: B 4
COD: B 5
COD: W 3
COD: W 4 
COD: B 6

MONTEZ, JENNIFER
COD: B 1 (1-19)
COD: B 1 (20-21:3) ~ {COD 1 (9:7-10)}
COD: B 1 (21:4-36)
COD: B 2
COD: W 1 (1-18)
COD: W 1 (19:1) ~ COD: B 3 (18:1)
COD: W 1 (19:2-20:2)
COD: W 1 (20:3-20:4) ~ COD: B 3 (19:1-19:2)
COD: W 1 (21)
COD: W 2 (1-3:1)
COD: B 3 (19:3-20)
COD: W 2 (3:2-21)
COD: B 4
COD: W 3
COD: W 4
COD: B 6 

MONTEZ, ALBERTO
COD: W 3
COD: W 4
COD: B 6

PEREZ, ISABELLA
COD: B 3
COD: B 5
COD: W 4

PEREZ, SAVANNAH
COD: B 3
COD: B 3-FB
CALL OF DUTY #1 (1-9:6)
COD: B 1 (1-19)
{COD 1 (9:7-10)} ~ COD: B 1 (20-21:3) 
COD: B 2
COD: P 1 
COD: P 2 
COD: W 1 
COD: B 3 
COD: W 2 
COD: B 4 (1-5:4)
COD: B 5
COD: B 6
COD: B 4 (5:5-23)
COD: W 3 
COD: W 4-BTS
COD: B 6-BTS
(Time travel! She appears in the current day in COD: B 3, then in a FlashBack from the future in COD: B 3, then she appears in her mysterious appearances in the order everyone else experienced them,(thanks to some expository dialogue in COD: B 5) then she merges with Jennifer, thanks to an accident in the future where the time machine overloads. She then appears in COD: W 3 when she takes over Jennifers body,(post-merge) then BTS in COD: W 4 & COD: B 6, where shes not in control. Time travel!) 

RANDY
COD: B 1 (1-19)
COD: B 2
COD: W 1 (1-18)
COD: W 1 (19:1) ~ COD: B 3 (18:1)
COD: B 3 (18:2-18:7)
COD: W 1 (19:2-20:2)
COD: W 1 (20:3-20:4) ~ COD: B 3 (19:1-19:2)
COD: W 1 (21)
COD: W 2 (1-3:1)
COD: B 3 (19:3-20)
COD: W 2 (3:2-21)
COD: W 3 - FB
COD: W 3 
COD: B 6 

To be continued in the Call 1-4! Eventually.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 21, 2008 10:20 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
GUNZER, SGT. FRANK
COD 1 (9:7-10) ~ COD: B 1 (20-21:3)
<<<

How many panels are in COD 1 (10)?


>>>
MacDONALD, LT. JAMES
COD: B 1 (21:4-36)
COD: B 3 (18:2-20)
<<<

How many panels in COD:B 1 (36) and COD:B 3 (20)?


>>>
MONTEZ, JENNIFER
COD: W 2 (3:2-21)
<<<

What about COD:W 2 (21)?


>>>
PEREZ, SAVANNAH
COD: B 4 (5:5-23)
<<<

COD:B 4 (23)?

Thanks!


watching: code of silence

			*	*	*

Mar 22, 2008 12:18 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

the Boss wrote:
>>>
How many panels are in COD 1 (10)?
<<<

7


the Boss wrote:
>>>
How many panels in COD:B 1 (36) 
<<<

3


the Boss wrote:
>>>
and COD:B 3 (20)?
<<<

1


the Boss wrote:
>>>
What about COD:W 2 (21)?
<<<

1


the Boss wrote:
>>>
COD:B 4 (23)?
<<<

1


the Boss wrote:
>>>
Thanks!
<<<

No problem!


the Boss wrote:
>>>
watching: code of silence
<<<

watching: Return of the Living Dead(pt 1)

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 44

Subject: Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man

Mar 15, 2008 12:58 pm 
By Starman

Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man (1995/11)

Writer: Peter David
Pencils: Rick Leonardi
Inker: Al Williamson

Appearances of Earth-616 characters:

Spider-Man
Mary Jane
J Jonah Jameson
Robbie Robertson
Venom

Appearances of 2099 characters:

Spider-Man 2099
Tyler Stone
Hikaru
Vulture 2099
Kasey Nash
Gabriel O'Hara
Lyla

Appearances of 2211 characters:

Hobgoblin 2211
Spider-Man 2211

Brief Syopsis:
Peter Parker as Spider-Man suddenly appear in New York the year of 2099, and Miguel O'Hara wakes up in bed next to Mary Jane. He hurries out of the appartment, puts on his costume, and starts web-slinging through Manhattan. Peter Parker in the future fights against flyboys and Vulture 2099, while Miguel in the present both fights against JJJ and Venom and finds out he's on the same day an event that created his future occured. Eventually Peter Parker and Miguel O'Hara meets and gets pulled into the year 2211. There they fight Hobgoblin 2211, and Spider-Man 2211 comes and makes things right. Back in their own times the future of Peter Parker timeline and the past of Miguel O'Hara's timeline have changed so that their timelines no longer diverge on that day.

References/Remarks:
Note from the editor claims that the story occurs before Spectacular Spider-Man #226. As Peter Parker has the Scarlet Spider costume from the end of Spectacular Spider-Man #224 until Spectacular Spider-Man #225 where Mary Jane has made him a new Spider-Man costume, and is in jail before that, it has to occur after Spectacular Spider-Man #225. As Spectacular Spider-Man #226 is a part of a storyline beginning in Web of Spider-Man #126, the best placement would be between Spectacular Spider-Man #225 and Web of Spider-Man #126.

For Spider-Man 2099 the placement is much more difficult. As Gabriel O'Hara knows that Spider-Man 2099 is his older brother Miguel the story has to occur after Spider-Man 2099 #3. As Miguel O'Hara knows that his younger brother Gabriel knows he is Spider-Man 2099 the story has to occur after Spider-Man #20. Kasey is kidnapped by Stark-Fujikawa while Miguel and Gabriel is in cyber-space from #18-21, outfitted with a cybernetic armour, then kidnapped by Alchemax and not released until Spider-Man 2099 #26, the story can't occur until after that. Miguel left for vacation in the beginning of S-M 2099 #27, without having met the returned Kasey yet, and did not return to New York until S-M 2099 #34. As the flyboys are replaced by SHIELD in S-M 2099 #34, the most fitting spot to place this story is after the flashback of Gabriel's phone call to Miguel in S-M 2099 #27, and before Miguel leaves New York. That is between the flashback in S-M 2099 #27 and the rest of the issue.

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
[...]
ASMU 9
WOSM 125
ASM 402
S-M 59
PPTSS 225
***Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man***
WOSM 126
ASM 403
S-M 60
PPTSS 226
[...]

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE
[...]
ASMU 9
WOSM 125
ASM 402
S-M 59
PPTSS 225
***Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man***
WOSM 126
ASM 403
S-M 60
PPTSS 226
[...]

JAMESON, J. JONAH
[...]
ASMU 9
PPTSS 225
PPTSS 225/2
***Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man***
PPTSS 226
[...]

ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE"
[...]
ASMU 9
GG 2
PPTSS 225
***Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man***
PPTSS 226
[...]

VENOM
[...]
V:CU 1
V:CU 2
V:CU 3
V:CU 4
***Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man***
V:STA 1
V:STA 2
V:STA 3
V:STA 4
V:STA 5
[...]

BROCK, EDDIE
[...]
V:CU 1
V:CU 2
V:CU 3
V:CU 4
***Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man***
V:STA 1
V:STA 2
V:STA 3
V:STA 4
V:STA 5
[...]

SPIDER-MAN 2099/MIGUEL O'HARA
[...]
Spider-Man 2099 #26
Spider-Man 2099 #27 - flashback
***Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man***
Spider-Man 2099 #27
[...]

STONE, TYLER
[...]
Spider-Man 2099 #26
***Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man***
Spider-Man 2099 #29
[...]

HIKARU
[...]
Spider-Man 2099 #26
***Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man***
[...]

VULTURE 2099
[...]
Spider-Man 2099 #8
***Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man***
[...]

NASH, KASEY
[...]
Spider-Man 2099 #26 
***Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man***
Spider-Man 2099 #27
[...]

O'HARA, GABRIEL
[...]
Spider-Man 2099 #26
Spider-Man 2099 #27 - flashback
***Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man***
Spider-Man 2099 #27
[...]

LYLA
[...]
Spider-Man 2099 #26
***Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man***
Spider-Man 2099 #27
[...]

HOBGOBLIN 2211
[...]
***Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man***
[...]

SPIDER-MAN 2211
[...]
***Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man***
[...]

Last edited by Starman on Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:19 pm, edited 2 times in total. 

- Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

			*	*	*

Mar 15, 2008 1:23 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Don't forget, Hobgoblin 2211 recently returned in Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 15, 2008 1:28 pm 
By Starman

Unfortunately I do not have those Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man issues.

- Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

			*	*	*

Mar 15, 2008 1:39 pm 
By michaelyuri

The FNSM issues are included in the chronologies for the 2211 characters (Hobgoblin, Spider-Man, & Chameleon) at the end of my 2099 chronologies: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3357

-Mike

			*	*	*

Mar 15, 2008 2:58 pm 
By michaelyuri

Starman wrote:
>>>
For Spider-Man 2099 the placement is much more difficult. As Gabriel O'Hara knows that Spider-Man 2099 is his older brother Miguel the story has to occur after Spider-Man 2099 #3. As Miguel O'Hara knows that his younger brother Gabriel knows he is Spider-Man 2099 the story has to occur after Spider-Man #20. Kasey is kidnapped by Stark-Fujikawa while Miguel and Gabriel is in cyber-space from #18-21, outfitted with a cybernetic armour, then kidnapped by Alchemax and not released until Spider-Man 2099 #26, the story can't occur until after that. As Miguel left for vacation in the beginning of S-M 2099 #27, without having met the returned Kasey yet, and did not return to New York until S-M #34. The only spot to where to place this story might work seems to be somewhere in between right after Miguel returns to New York and right before Tyler Stone is shot by Conchata, as Tyler Stone seems to be alright in the story, and in a wheel chair in the S-M 2009 issues after he got shot.
<<<

I'm not sure about your 2099 placement. By the time Miguel returns to New York from his roadtrip in SM2099 #34, the One Nation Under Doom storyline is underway. But Spider-Man 2099 Meets Spider-Man seems to be a pre-Doom takeover story. Peter Parker is being chased by Public Eye flyboys -- after Doom's takeover the police are SHIELD agents. Tyler Stone and Hikaru are rival CEOs in this story rather than both working for Doom.

Of course, placing it earlier is problematic for the reasons you noted. I still think it can be shoehorned in between SM2099 #26 & #27. The only difficulty is Kasey Nash, but I think we can work around this. Toward the end of #26, Kasey is returned and Gabe finds her unconscious. In #27, we see her wake up and it's implied that she's been unconscious since the previous issue, but this is never said explicitly. We could assume she was up and about between issues and is just waking up from her normal sleep in #27.

Issue #27 does imply that it continues pretty directly from the events of #26, but unfortunately this is true for practically the entire Spider-Man 2099 run. The events run together pretty tightly leaving very few gaps to squeeze in Spider-Man's appearances in other books.

			*	*	*

Mar 15, 2008 3:39 pm 
By Starman

How about shoehorning it in between issue 31 and 32? They make a quickie home to New York before going to Mexico City? Would that work?

- Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

			*	*	*

Mar 15, 2008 6:19 pm 
By michaelyuri

Yeah, I think that would work. I'll take another look at those issues to see if I see any problems, but that seems like a pretty decent solution.

-Mike

			*	*	*

Mar 16, 2008 3:53 pm 
By michaelyuri

michaelyuri wrote:
>>>
Starman wrote:
>>>
How about shoehorning it in between issue 31 and 32? They make a quickie home to New York before going to Mexico City? Would that work?
<<<

Yeah, I think that would work. I'll take another look at those issues to see if I see any problems, but that seems like a pretty decent solution.
<<<

Unfortunately, this won't work. Gabriel and Kasey leave on a flight to Mexico in #29 and are shown arriving in Mexico City in #30. I think the gap between #26 & #27 is still the best fit.


michaelyuri wrote:
>>>
In #27, we see her wake up and it's implied that she's been unconscious since the previous issue, but this is never said explicitly. We could assume she was up and about between issues and is just waking up from her normal sleep in #27.
<<<

After looking at #27 again, Kasey's situation is not as clear cut as I had thought. In the flashback sequence where Gabriel is talking to Miguel, he says, "Kasey's back! They just let her go!", but then in the next panel he says, "And she's being nice to me! I'm not sure why, but she is!" When Gabe found her at the end of #26 she had collapsed and didn't say anything, and this conversation happens before we see her waking up in Gabe's apartment. So when was she "being nice" to him? She must have been awake sometime between when Gabe finds her in #26 and when we see her wake up in #27.

-Mike

			*	*	*

Mar 20, 2008 9:47 pm 
By Starman

How about having "Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man" between the flashback in SM2009 27 and the rest of the issue?

Like this:
[...]
SM2009 26
SM2009 27-FB
***Spider-Man 2099 meets Spider-Man***
SM2009 27
[...]

- Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

			*	*	*

Mar 30, 2008 3:24 pm 
By Starman

I've now edited the analysis to reflect this new placement.

Next issues to analyze: Spider-Man: Hobgoblin Lives #1-3

- Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

			*	*	*

Thread 45

Subject: Howard the Duck Holiday Special #1 (Feb. 1997)

Mar 29, 2008 8:23 am 
By PopularLoser

Before I begin, I should let you all know that this is the only Howard the Duck comic book I own. So I have no idea where this fits in Howard the Duck's or Beverly Switzer's chronology. Looking at Howard's listing here at the MCP and checking the Cover Dates at The Unofficial Handbook of Marvel Comics Creators, I'd suggest a placement between Howard's appearances in Generation X and Daydreamers. But I'm not really an expert in such things. I'm sure Paul B's calender will help in that regard anyway.

Howard the Duck Holiday Special #1 (Feb. 1997)

Written by Larry Hama
Penciled by Pascual Ferry
Inked by Jamie Mendoza and Hackshack Studios

Title: Wreck the Malls with Hydra's Folly!

Pages 1-34:
The story is set on Christmas Eve, I'd say in the late afternoon and probably running into the early evening. Howard is working at at video store in Cleveland (Ohio I'm presuming). After a run-in with Judge Elmer Dwedd of the Copyright Infringment Agency (parodies of Judge D.R.E.D.D and the C.I.A respectively), Beverly Switzer finds Howard and drags him to the Mondo Mega Mall where she's working as a candy cane elf. The mall's Santa got his beard caught in an escalator and, under protest, Howard has to take his place. The kids drive Howard crazy and he's pickpocketed by a midget pretending to be a blind, sick, homeless boy. Howard wants to chase the pickpocket but is waylaid in kids who want to see Santa, the last of whom is an awkward little boy in a Wolverine costume named Dionysius Finster. Having been abandoned by his parents, the kid tags along with Howard and Bev as they are leaving the mall. Suddenly, a real elf (a parody of Stan Lee) from the North Pole busts in on the group and demands that Howard (as a department store Santa) come to the North Pole to rescue the real Santa from HYDRA. Howard, Bev, and Dionysius join a bizarre group of department store Santas to take back Santa's Workship and Save Christmas. Airdropped onto the North Pole, Howard leads the group against an army of HYDRA agents only to find out that Santa Claus has actually sold himself out to HYDRA and most of his elves have been fired as a result of streamlining production at the workshop. Dionysius Finster is outraged that Santa has done this and (mimicking Wolverine) goes berserk on the lead HYDRA agent. Santa sees the error of his ways, and with the help of Howard, Bev, the other department store Santas, and an army of disgruntled, unemployed elves is able to regain control of his workshop. Because of the hard work of all involved, Christmas is saved and Santa agrees to reward the various department store Santas (including Howard) who helped him out by giving them transport back to their homes as well as extra presents. He also agrees to let Dionysius Finster, who has nowhere else to go, live at the North Pole.

Pages 35-37:
The next night (Christmas Night), Howard and Bev are walking down a street enjoying their gifts when Howard sees the midget who pickpocketed him the day before. He gets his revenge, taking back what was stolen from him and donates all the other stuff the midget stole to a charity Santa.

Appearances: Howard the Duck, Beverly Switzer, and Santa Claus. If Ms. Claus appearances are being tracked by the MCP, she has a BTS here. None of the HYDRA agents seem to be anything more than generic HYDRA agents. And I doubt Dionysius Finster appears in any other stories.

[Insert Witty Remark Here]

			*	*	*

Mar 29, 2008 8:39 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I have Howard here between GENX 23 and 25, on December 24-25 of Year 18. Thanks for the analysis, PopularLoser.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 29, 2008 10:49 am 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
between GENX 23 and 25
<<<

How/why does he go from hanging out in Massachusetts, to working at a video store in Cleveland, then back to hanging around in Massachusetts again?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 29, 2008 1:50 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

You're expecting Howard's life to make sense?  

I haven't plotted all of Howard's apearances on a calendar but picked the Christmas closest to other books published contemporaneously with this special -- the same Christmas as GENX 24, in which Howard does not appear. That got me thinking that he left Massachusetts after the Thanksgiving story in GENX 23 to appear in Cleveland. The Ohio gig didn't work out, and he returned to Massachusetts in time for GENX 25, which I placed in February. I have the Daydreamers mini occurring right on the heels of GENX 25.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 29, 2008 2:26 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Howard doesn't appear in Gen X #24 because 99% of the issue takes place in Monaco. It's not an indicator that he left the Academy grounds.

Personally, I have a hard time believing that he'd leave Beverly behind and travel a thousand miles, just to return to living in the Gen X kids' grotto. Wasn't the only reason he was spending time there in the first place because he picked up Skin and Chamber in his cab?

I recommend placing it before or after his Gen X/Daydreamers appearances. Not during.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 30, 2008 12:21 am 
By wolframbane

According to the OHOTMU Bibliography for Howard, the Howard the Duck Holiday Special #1 occurs between "with Ben Reilly & savage Chicago cop, vs Relf & Circus of Crime (Spider-Man Team-Up #5/Savage Dragon & Destroyer Duck, 1996); vs Judge Dwedd & Hydra, saved Santa Claus again (Howard the Duck Holiday Special #1, 1997); befriended Generation X, Franklin Richards, Artie Maddicks, Leech & Tana Nile, joined them & Man-Thing in surreal journey (Generation X #20-21, 23 & 25/Daydreamers #1-3 1996-1997)"

http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:B ... d_the_Duck

			*	*	*

Mar 30, 2008 2:21 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

The Copyright Infringement Agency?! Yeah, this should be Howard's next appearance following Spider-Man Team-Up #5(& by extension, Savage Dragon & Destroyer Duck). Definitely. No question about it. 

And before anyone asks if Savage Dragon & Destroyer Duck is missing from the Project, it treats the Savage Dragon Universe & the Marvel Universe as the same universe, and is therefore NOT the Marvel Universe 616... as far as the Chronology Project is concerned. HOWEVER, it is continued directly from Spider-ManTeam-Up #5, so if you're a Howard the Duck fan, you'll want to track it down. One, because it's a good issue.(and fun!) Two, because it will put that Copyright Infringement Agency thing into context.

And hey, thanks for the analysis PopularLoser!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 30, 2008 6:03 am 
By loki

There's a slight amount of evidence (thanks to in-jokes by Erik Larsen while he was working for Marvel) that the Savage Dragon has a counterpart on 616, or at minimum that Dragon has visited 616 and is remembered by some of the heroes there. A Skrull agent, seeking to free imprisoned Skrulls, took on the form of Dragon, believing that it would get him access to local prisons to free his compatriots - the only logical reason he could believe such an unusual looking form would give him that kind of access is if someone of that appearance was well known and trusted by local authorities.
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/savdragi.htm

Obviously copyright dictates we are unlikely to see this Marvel Universe Savage Dragon in too many stories, but apparently he's out there.

			*	*	*

Mar 30, 2008 6:22 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

That's right... in Nova: the Human Rocket #3! Featuring the villain the Quintronic Man, a robot driven by five Fury LMDs.  

Good stuff.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 30, 2008 10:16 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

loki wrote:
>>>
A Skrull agent, seeking to free imprisoned Skrulls, took on the form of Dragon, believing that it would get him access to local prisons to free his compatriots - the only logical reason he could believe such an unusual looking form would give him that kind of access is if someone of that appearance was well known and trusted by local authorities.
<<<

I haven't read the story, but I have to ask the question: did the Skrull agent's plan work? Because another theory that springs to mind is that the Skrull agent thought someone of that appearance was well known. Skrulls, after all, have a history of mistaking pop culture items for the real thing.


watching: the russians are coming! the russians are coming!

			*	*	*

Mar 30, 2008 12:06 pm 
By loki

Fair point - the plan didn't work, at least in as much as he got caught. However, as the Appendix entry notes, one of the cops notes that the Skrull got some of the appearance details wrong, which is why he wasn't a convincing doppelganger, NOT that he took on the form of someone who only existed as a comic book character. So yes, there's a possibility that the Skrull merely made a mistake, and picked a fictional character to copy, but then we'd also have to take it that the cop was joking about why the disguise failed. 

Since we aren't likely to see the "real" 616 Dragon in a comic, I guess people can choose to interpret whatever way they prefer.

			*	*	*

Mar 30, 2008 4:02 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I always took the events of SMTU #5 and Savage Dragon/Destroyer Duck as some kind of inter-dimensional overlap. For that period of time, the Marvel Universe and Image Universe touch (or touched).

The Image universe has already been shown, in the Kurt Busiek-written series "Shattered Image", to have a history of merging with and separating from other universes without any of the inhabitants noticing. ("Shattered Image" was written to sort-of-explain why the Youngblood, WildCATS and CyberForce characters vanished when their creators left the company, and showed the Ninja Turtle characters suddenly appearing on-panel, with all the other characters being briefly shocked and then going "oh yeah, they've been here this whole time".) My pet theory is that the Image Universe occasionally and briefly merges with other universes whenever crossover time hits.

As for the cop commenting that the Dragon-Skrull "got the fin wrong" -- yeah, that's a huge inside joke. One of Erik Larsen's biggest gripes is that, if anyone else draws the Dragon, they get the fin wrong. (Remember, Erik wrote that issue!) If an in-universe explanation is needed, we can always say that the cop was a big fan of the Dragon comic...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 30, 2008 4:42 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
The Copyright Infringement Agency?! Yeah, this should be Howard's next appearance following Spider-Man Team-Up #5(& by extension, Savage Dragon & Destroyer Duck). Definitely. No question about it. 
<<<

Okay, then... That puts this Christmas story shortly before the Thanksgiving story in GENX 23, in which Howard and Beverly stop by "cause we were on the East Coast" (with an editor's note citing the Cleveland-based HTDHS 1  ). Then comes the "real" Christmas of GENX 24. Not the best consistency in temporal references between books published in the same holiday season, but there you have it.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 46

Subject: Founding of Damage Control

Mar 29, 2008 01:55 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

In this week's World War Hulk Aftersmash: Damage Control #3, it is revealed that Tony Stark, Anne Marie Hoag, and Wilson Fisk drew up the charter for Damage Control "right after the Hulk smashed up Avengers Mansion for the first time." Anyone know when that happened? Stark later sold his stake in Damage Control because he thought being in business with a gangster like Fisk would morally compromise him.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 29, 2008 02:41 pm 
By JD

In one of the first few issues of Avengers, I think.

			*	*	*

Mar 30, 2008 01:47 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

It was Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes #1. Pissed, the Hulk jumps out through the wall, smashing out the side of the building. That night Stark employees are fixing up the place on scaffolding.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 30, 2008 04:25 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Fury. A quick check of Avengers came up empty, so I might have figured it was a continuity implant. How could I not remember good ol' A:EMH 1?

Paul B.
