	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Damage Control #3
2. X-Men: First Class v2 #10
3. The Leader's appearances, (as per Warbound mini-series)
4. Conan?
5. Apocalypse as Mah k'ina Tah Balam Ahau among the Mayans
6. Amazing Spider-Man 85-88 and others
7. Black Panther Annual 1
8. Hulk #344
9. Wolverine: First Class
10. CA5 37-FB
11. IM3 78
12. Some Adam Warlock Chronology corrections proposal
13. President and Eleanor Roosevelt appearances
14. Jimmy Carter
15. First appearance of Earth-616?

	Issue Analysis Forum
16. Franklin Richards: Spring Break 1
17. April call for analyses
18. Daredevil 106
19. Conspiracy #1-2
20. Wild Angels
21. Spider-Man Family v2 8
22. Spider-Man/Daredevil #1
23. Daredevil/Spider-Man #4
24. Spider-Man: Hobgoblin Lives 1-3
25. Avengers: Celestial Quest #3 
26. Avengers Annual 2001, story 2




Thread 1

Subject: Damage Control #3

Mar 30, 2008 2:48 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

As revealed in World War Hulk Aftersmash: Damage Control #3, the Chrysler Building is SENTIENT!

Apparently, during the Hulk's attack on New York the Chrysler Building became infused with the Shadow-Stone from the Hulk's ship. Being psychokinetic, the Shadow-Stone gave the Chrysler Building life, and it can now talk, think, etc. It's sentient! It's even been given a mode of transportation so it can take a vacation once a year.  

What I'm saying is, the Chrysler Building would now qualify for it's own listing here at the Project. At the very least: 

CHRYSLER BUILDING
DAMCON4 2
DAMCON4 3

I'll have to look though WWH again to see if I can spot it there anywhere... but here's the question: Now that the Chrysler Building is sentient, should we list any appearances it has made in the past? Meaning, when we see the New York City skyline in an issue of Spider-Man(or whatever) and there's the Chrysler Building, should it be added to it's chronology even though it takes place before it gains it's sentience? At the moment I'm thinking yes, but what do YOU think?

-Daron Jensen

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Mar 30, 2008 10:20 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

I would contend that if it turns out to be a temporary situation, it would seem rather silly to list its pre- and post-sentience appearances.

(Although it wouldn't surprise me to never see this referred to again.)


watching: the russians are coming! the russians are coming!

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Mar 30, 2008 10:28 am 
By Somebody
Director

It wouldn't surprise me if this was never referred to again either, but it was pretty clearly stated to be a permanent situation - the building's quiet for eleven months a year to let people go about their business (so seeing it without a face & hands isn't a sign of reversion), then it gets August off to go wherever it wants [which I'm sure will make Paul B happy calendarically ]

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Mar 30, 2008 4:05 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Oh, this is funny stuff.

I say, DON'T include any pre-sentience appearances -- but DO include any appearances from now on. 

First time it gets smashed up in a battle, though, let's all pretend it "dies" and we can stop listing it... 

-Jeph!

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Mar 30, 2008 4:48 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
then it gets August off to go wherever it wants [which I'm sure will make Paul B happy calendarically ]
<<<

Not especially. Unfortunately, August just doesn't work. Now if that month were mid-May to mid-June, we'd be golden. 

Last edited by Somebody on Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total. 
Reason: Quoted me, quote attributed to Fury, fixing 

Paul B.

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Mar 30, 2008 4:55 pm 
By Somebody
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
First time it gets smashed up in a battle, though, let's all pretend it "dies" and we can stop listing it... 
<<<

The MCP lists corpses, remember? It would still get listed 

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Mar 30, 2008 5:21 pm 
By jephyork
Director

You're evil.

-Jeph!

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Mar 30, 2008 6:06 pm 
By Somebody
Director

PS: Didn't Whedon claim in AstonishingXM that the Danger Room had been sentient for years? Shouldn't that get a listing backdated to at least the first O:ZT appearance of a functional Danger Room?

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Mar 30, 2008 6:28 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Right about here is where somebody brings up the Infinity Gems.

-Jeph!

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Mar 30, 2008 7:52 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Oh, this is funny stuff.
<<<

I'm still laughing about it. 


jephyork wrote:
>>>
I say, DON'T include any pre-sentience appearances -- but DO include any appearances from now on.
<<<

Ah, but the Chrysler Building remembers everything since it was 'born' in 1930. So even though it only gained sentience recently, it still experienced everything up to that point.  

As for the Danger Room, well yeah, I guess that should get a listing as well. 

Wait. ARE the Infinity Gems sentient?

-Daron Jensen

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Mar 30, 2008 7:57 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Wait. ARE the Infinity Gems sentient?
<<<

It's... complicated. The seven* gems as a unit are, individually they're not. And, on top of that, this may only apply when they're in the Ultraverse anyway...

*Yes, seven. The seventh gem is the "Ego Gem".

			*	*	*

Mar 30, 2008 8:09 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I didn't pay any attention to the Ultraverse stuff, no wonder I missed that.

-Daron Jensen

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Mar 30, 2008 11:01 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I'm pretty sure they were described as individually sentient in that story too. I'll have to check...

*digs out old, terrible books*

-Jeph!

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Mar 31, 2008 10:38 am 
By dimadick

According to "Ultraforce" vol. 1 #10 (July, 1995): "Many Millenia ago in your universe [the native dimension of Dane Whitman] there was a god with the power of infinity. Even with control of all that is, the god's loneliness could not be soothed. By his own hand he died. His body shattered into gems, each representing a gift he possessed. Power, Time, Reality, Space, Mind, and Soul. Any person who becomes a gem host gains the infinite power of that gem".

Which would make the gems and their energies the physical remains of a deceased deity. The seventh gem, the Ego Gem represented the psyche of the original being and got introduced in an Utraforce/Avengers crossover. 

In "Avengers/Ultraforce" #1 (October, 1995), the seven gems were reunited and the deity was recreated in female form, called "Nemesis". She was the main villainess in the crossover which also included "Ultraforce/Avengers" (Fall, 1995). Then the gems regain their individuality in the "Black September Infinity" one-shot (also 1995), gain humanoid forms and depart to parts unknown. 

Any particular idea if they should get a composite listing as Nemesis, seven individual entries or no entry at all?

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Apr 01, 2008 12:43 pm 
By metaldragon

I seem to recall the Soul Gem talking and moving when Adam Warlock was unconscious on one or 2 occasions. Don't know about the others though.

"May the Light shine forever!"

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Thread 2

Subject: X-Men: First Class v2 #10

Mar 22, 2008 11:32 am 
By metaldragon

Preview:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/ ... i?id=13449

Since Professor X is shown only talking to Cyclops about Cerebro, it could be set anytime after UX 9 but that's only the opening pages of the story of course (after UX 11 otherwise). In the flashback page, they're on a "field trip" in Mexico investigating the Chupacabra (legendary Mexican goat eating demon... one appears to be hiding behind a plant near them!) where all but Cyclops (and Professor X) drink something and contract Montezuma's revenge (the trots). The rest of the pages takes place at Xavier's and the Blue Ridge Mts in West Virginia.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Mar 30, 2008 5:02 pm 
By metaldragon

There isn't too much else to go on in the story. This is the first time Professor X has had to send any of them on a solo mission and he tells Cyclops that "If I could only have sent one of you to face this, I would have still chosen you. You can handle this." Could go any time after UX 9 really.

Possible placements:
UX 9 & 10: earliest possible placement because of Cerebro. Dialog in UX 10 says they've been "inactive for weeks" though but you could still place it right after UX 9 maybe... 
UX 10 & 11: On their way back from the Savage Land they stop in Mexico? If we place it in one of these spots, the line by Bobby in X:FC 7- "Uh... Maybe he's got a stomach thing." could be a reference to this story!  

Sometime between UX 17 & 18 with the bulk of the X:FC stories? Cerebro (and most of the mansion post X:FC 6-8!) is under repairs during this period but still functional...

X:FC 1 & UX 22: Possibly after Scott's bout of self-doubt & final Cerebro repairs in UX 20-21 and their other field trip in X:FC 1? Since they're not worried about the Brotherhood finding Frederick (I know- lack of evidence... etc. Still...) this might also be a good spot.

"May the Light shine forever!"

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Mar 30, 2008 5:20 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Between #10 & #11 sounds best to me.

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Apr 01, 2008 1:16 pm 
By wolframbane

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Sometime between UX 17 & 18 with the bulk of the X:FC stories? Cerebro (and most of the mansion post X:FC 6-8!) be under repairs during this period but still functional...
<<<

This era seems to be getting a bit crowded, and a lot of events seemed to be getting necessarily stuffed into a brief period of time. So if the story fits well somewhere else. more power to it.

			*	*	*

Thread 3

Subject: The Leader's appearances, (as per Warbound mini-series)

Apr 01, 2008 11:43 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

In the last issue of the Warbound mini-series, the Leader references the series of transformations he's undergone over the years. As the Leader speaks, in one panel, we see the giant brain and eyes floating in the jar, (as shown in the final issues of Bruce Jones' run on the Hulk). So this would seem to undo Peter David's claim that Bruce Jones' run was all an illusion created by Nightmare.

Though I still have no clue how this ties in with the Leader's recent appearance in the pages of She-Hulk from a few months back...Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Apr 02, 2008 12:18 am 
By jephyork
Director

In She-Hulk v2 #18, the Leader's claim was that he faked his death twice. He never said that it wasn't him as the brain in the jar, though, so there's some wiggle room.

And I'm glad that whole "hey, maybe the Bruce Jones run was a dream!" bit is being discredited. That seemed a really poor way to whitewash those stories.

-Jeph!

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Thread 4

Subject: Conan?

Mar 17, 2008 11:55 pm 
By ChastMastr

I've noticed that Conan and various books he is in are referenced, but he has no entry of his own. I'm curious because I've been trying to sort out his chronology within his Marvel appearances -- for instance, there is the occasional "this story takes place between #11 and #12" or "a tale of Conan's youth," as well as how King Conan fits chronologically with CTB (mostly afterward, of course, but there are stories in CTB from different times in his career), and the other Marvel Conan miniseries, graphic novels, etc. Help? (And if this info is elsewhere since Conan is not owned by Marvel, could someone point me there? I have found chronologies of the REH novels and such, but not of the Marvel books.)

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Mar 18, 2008 1:29 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

As far as I can tell, there isn't a comprehensive resource(in this vein) for the Marvel Conan books on-line, but I have to admit I haven't looked that hard. You're right though, in that there isn't a Conan chronology here... we just haven't gotten around to it yet.

The main reason for that, is that so far no one has analysed the various series'. It sounds like you've already started some of the legwork, if you had any of the books we would love to see some analyses. I know there's a few Conan fans around here, so if you weren't sure about some things I'm sure we could hammer them out here on the board. 

A few years ago, I was in the same position you're in now, but with Marvel's WWII years. I couldn't find anything that resembled what I was looking for, so I finally sat down and started it myself. I'm pretty happy with the result, here and on my own site, but I really couldn't have done it without the help of everyone here at the Chronology Project. What I'm saying is, you're looking in the right place, but we'll need your help to do it. 

If you need some pointers on getting started analysing issues, check out the FAQ, go through the Issue Analysis forum to see how some folks have formatted their analyses, and ask questions! 

And hey, good to see you back on the boards, Chastmastr!

-Daron Jensen

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Mar 18, 2008 2:45 am 
By SeanCurtin

http://www.geocities.com/conancomicchronology/index.html

This site has a mostly-complete chronology of the Conan comics, based on the timelines that Roy Thomas wrote for the Conan Saga reprint magazine.

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Mar 18, 2008 12:29 pm 
By wolframbane

I would also suggest, if you can track it down, the Marvel Comics Index #2 from March, 1976. It reviews most of the early Conan issues published up until that time.

According to wiki it contains synopses of Conan The Barbarian #1-61 and Annual #1, Giant-Size Conan #1-5, Savage Sword of Conan #1-10 and Annual #1, Ka-Zar (1st series) #1-3, Ka-Zar (2nd series) #1-15, Kull the Conqueror #1-15, Kull and the Barbarians #1-3, Savage Tales #11 and Annual #1, Chamber of Chills #1-21, Chamber of Darkness #1-8 and Special #1, Monsters on the Prowl #9-30, Tower of Shadows #1-9 and Annual #1, Creatures on the Loose #10-37, and Worlds Unknown #1-8

I would also suggest the Official Handbook of the Conan Universe (1986).

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Mar 19, 2008 3:46 pm 
By ChastMastr

Excellent! That link from Sean was precisely what I need! 

Yes, it is good to be back. I cannot imagine how painful things will be for everyone coming up soon, however, as abruptly all kinds of characters' previous appearances are about to be retconned as Skrull impostors.  (Will they get their own page, perhaps? That might make it easier.)

David

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Mar 19, 2008 6:26 pm 
By Somebody
Director

*shrugs*

It's happened before, with Wolverine/Skrullverine and Alicia/Lyja, even before you get into other retcons of the "it wasnae me" type.

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Mar 19, 2008 10:47 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I'm sort of looking forward to it.

-Jeph!

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Mar 19, 2008 11:29 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I'm Totally looking forward to it.

-Daron Jensen

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Mar 20, 2008 5:30 am 
By ChastMastr

I'm probably the only person on Earth not signing up for it... (I'll buy the crossovers by writers I like, like Fred Van Lente and Dan Slott, but I really don't want to buy the main Secret Invasion series. I've profoundly disliked every single one of Marvel's Big Crossover Events, and especially the fallout from each one, since Disassembled (House of M, Decimation, Civil War, World War Hulk, etc.), so it's not so much once bit, twice shy as five or six times bit, twice shy...) 

(Which is indeed part of why I'm on a Conan back issue buying spree, along with Wolverine back issues and such. I want books I'm going to enjoy...)

David

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Mar 20, 2008 5:32 am 
By ChastMastr

Somebody wrote:
>>>
 and Alicia/Lyja
<<<

Don't forget Yera!  

I wonder if Lyja and Yera are fused in the Amalgam Universe?

David

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Mar 24, 2008 11:39 pm 
By Adamant

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
I would also suggest, if you can track it down, the Marvel Comics Index #2 from March, 1976. It reviews most of the early Conan issues published up until that time.

According to wiki it contains synopses of Conan The Barbarian #1-61 and Annual #1, Giant-Size Conan #1-5, Savage Sword of Conan #1-10 and Annual #1, Ka-Zar (1st series) #1-3, Ka-Zar (2nd series) #1-15, Kull the Conqueror #1-15, Kull and the Barbarians #1-3, Savage Tales #11 and Annual #1, Chamber of Chills #1-21, Chamber of Darkness #1-8 and Special #1, Monsters on the Prowl #9-30, Tower of Shadows #1-9 and Annual #1, Creatures on the Loose #10-37, and Worlds Unknown #1-8
<<<


Wouldn't be terribly useful - Conan the Barbarian was a straight chronological series, it's the Savage Tales/Sword stories that take place at different times.

Still, yeah, Conan's story isn't really as hard to follow as it would seem at first. His journey was mostly chronicled before Marvel started doing the comic books, so just by looking at where Conan is and what he's doing in a particular story, it can be pinned down pretty easily if you're familiar with his life story already.

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Mar 25, 2008 10:41 am 
By ChastMastr

Well, but there are issues which take place at other times, and annuals, and Giant-Size and so on, so even in the original series there are bits. But since that kind person posted the link to the Conan chronology, that solves my problem more or less entirely. 

David

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Mar 25, 2008 4:55 pm 
By Enda80

Those Chronology articles in Savage Sword missed a few bs and other appearances, though. Some of these were appearances in MVL-owned titles, so I can understand somewhat why (without agreeing), but nevertheless, some of the omissions:

[ ] TOMB OF DRACULA #26 THESE NEMEDIAN CHRONICLES ARE INCOMPLETE
cover date: 
title: 
wrtier  Marv Wolfman artist  Gene Colan inker  Tom Palmer
comment: Cameo by Kull. Reprinted in Essential TOMB OF DRACULA #2.

[ ] ESSENTIAL TOMB OF DRACULA #2.
cover date: 2004
wrtier  Marv Wolfman artist  Gene Colan inker  Tom Palmer
comment: Reprints Tomb of Dracula #26 with a cameo by Kull..

[ ] EXCALIBUR #47 THESE NEMEDIAN CHRONICLES ARE INCOMPLETE
cover date: 
title: 
scripter  artist  Alan Davis
comment: Cameo by Conan.
Excalibur I#48's story was titled Kylun the Barbarian, so that would indicate that it was him having a dalliance with Saturnyne. 

[ ] FANTASTIC FOUR #405
cover date: October 1995
title: Terror is Tomorrow!
writer  Tom Defalco artist  Paul Ryan inker  Dan Bulanadi
comment: Cameo by Conan.
The FF Encyclopedia confirms it as him
Conan appears briefly in FF I#405, confirmed by letters page to #410

[ ] AVENGERS FOREVER #12
cover date: February 2000
title: Avengers Assemble
writer Kurt Busiek & Roger Stern artist  Carlos Pacheco inker  Jesus Merino
comment: Cameo by Conan.

http://www.conan.com/invboard/lofiversion/index.php?t1383.html

Fear#15 has a cameo

Thor Corps#3 has a cameo 

A figure resembling Groo fights a familiar looking figure in Suburban Ninja She-Devils#1. Both died due to wounds in that battle, so I will chalk that up to a lookalike.

Conan cameo in Incomplete Deaths' Head#11 

Marvel Saga#1 has a cameo.

Doctor Strange III#31's letters page states that a figure seen fighting a werewolf in Doctor III#26/2 was Conan. 

[A] flashback from Conan the Barbarian I#245 which shows Kull slaying Thulsa Doom, and then Varnae becoming the first vampire, was actually a retelling of a back-up from Doctor Strange volume 3#11. That issue explicitly refers to Kull by name, and also shows Conan and Red Sonja in a one-panel recap of Conan the Barbarian #43-44.

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Mar 25, 2008 5:02 pm 
By Enda80

CTB I#128 has a fb to his youth
SSOC#74 has a fb to his youth
CTB I#184 has an encounter in his youth with a time-traveller 
Few others, I'll have to think about it.

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Mar 25, 2008 5:06 pm 
By Enda80

http://www.darkhorse.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=9924&highlight=
These two go together: 
Conan The Barbarian 199 
Conan The Barbarian Annual 12 

These two have a flashback to Kull's last battle with Thulsa Doom and reveals the origin of the first vampire, Varnae. 
Doctor Strange Sorcerer Supreme 11 
Conan The Barbarian 245 

The opening scenes in the following is a flashback that sets up the rest of the story for Conan. 
Conan The Barbarian Annual 08 

The rest are issues that have Kull stories but are not included on any of the chronological lists I have found. 
Savage Sword Of Conan 137 
Savage Sword Of Conan 186 
Savage Sword Of Conan 213 

Also, every list I have seen shows where the several flashbacks take place from the Graphic Novel listed below, but none show where the current story in the Graphic Novel takes place!! So, if you know where the story takes place, I really, really would like to know!! 
MGN 47 Kull Vale Of Shadow 

Again, any help would be appreciated. I believe this would be all of Marvel's Kull stories. If you know of any issues that may be generally unknown, please let me know.

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Mar 25, 2008 5:11 pm 
By ChastMastr

I seem to recall reading that Thongor (warrior of lost Lemuria!) predates not only Conan but Kull as well.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/thongorlemuria.htm
>>>
ccording to the letter column of Creatures on the Loose#27, "Thongor's adventures... take place almost half a million years ago, eons before Conan or Kull, when Lemuria was the only continent on which modern man dwelt. The rest of the world - apparently at any rate - was still in the Pleistocene period and inhabited by Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal man." This means Thongor's world existed a little under 500,000 years B.C. They gave this as the reason for why there would be no crossovers with Conan or King Kull, but then go on to make a big deal over that "apparently" they slipped in there. "Let us add considerable emphasis to that 'apparently', however. Without giving away too much of what we have in mind... we think it safe to say that in other similarly isolated parts of the planet, a civilization or two may have sprung up at that time." Since (as far as I am aware) no further Thongor comics were made after the end of the Dragon King saga in CotL#29, one can only speculate what those plans for the future were. Any ideas, people? What other Pre-Cataclysmic civilizations were active around that time period in Marvel Comics? The Savage Land?
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/starseed.htm reveals that (Marvel Premiere#28 [fb]) - During a primitive era of man, around the age of the Neanderthals, a group of more intelligent, peaceful people built their own society on an unnamed mountain. This society developed into an age comparable to that of the Roman empire, many hundreds of thousands of years before the rest of the world.

Also, I seem to recall the Dark Rider storyline in Marvel Team-Up revealed the presence of an Age of Wizards. Olshevsky in his Marvel Team-Up Index stated that he was not sure where the Age of Wizards fell with relation to the visit of the Celestials, but he presumed that it happened thousands of years before the time of King Kull.---Per Degaton

The dating employed in the CotL#27 lettercol makes it problematic to place Thongor's adventures within the greater framework of established Marvel history. The mentioning of Hyperborea as existent before Lemuria also further muddies the waters. If the Hyborian Era runs from roughly 17,000 B.C. to the beginning of recorded history, and the Pre-Cataclysmic Era predates that from about 18,000 to 100,000 B.C. this would mean that Thongor's Lemurian Era predates the vast bulk of events on Marvel's prehistoric earth, including Varnae's transformation into a vampire, the sinking of Atlantis, the destruction of the Deviant's empire by the Celestials, the rise and fall of the Hyborian Era, and the Stone and Bronze Ages. Moreover, it mentions a previous Hyperborean Age (which might or might not be connected to Clark Ashton Smith's Hyperborean Era which emerged between Ice Ages). It would likely be safest to just say Thongor's adventures occurred outside the normal Marvel Universe (Earth-616), but with the true love of the obscurantist fanboy I can't help but want to fit it in somewhere. It could be that while the rest of the world was populated by Cro-Mags and Neanderthals, the progenitors of the Lemurians, Phondrath and Evalla, represented highly evolved creations of the Nineteen Gods' that were later absorbed into mainline humanity which the Celestials had allowed to evolve normally.
There is evidence that the Clark Ashton Smith version of Hyperborea could be a part of the Marvel Universe. In Doctor Strange III#8, Doctor Strange was shown as having The Book of Eibon, a magical book from Clark Ashton Smith's Hyperborea stories.
<<<

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Mar 25, 2008 7:14 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
EXCALIBUR #47
scripter  artist  Alan Davis
comment: Cameo by Conan.
Excalibur I#48's story was titled Kylun the Barbarian, so that would indicate that it was him having a dalliance with Saturnyne.
<<<

What? No. Wrong on so many levels.

First off, Excalibur #46 was titled Colin the Barbarian. And it was a reference to the fact that Kylun grew up on a savage, sword-and-sorcery-type world. That's all. We even see those scenes on-panel immediately before the title is shown.

Just because issue #46 has a jokey Conan reference in the title, and issue #47 shows Saturnyne sleeping with some big buff guy, doesn't in any way imply that that guy was intended to be Conan. 


Also:
>>>
ESSENTIAL TOMB OF DRACULA #2.
cover date: 2004
wrtier  Marv Wolfman artist  Gene Colan inker  Tom Palmer
comment: Reprints Tomb of Dracula #26 with a cameo by Kull.
<<<

Since when is a reprint of a previous appearance relevant?

-Jeph!

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Mar 25, 2008 8:09 pm 
By Enda80

The hair seems right, and the medallion he wore resembles the one the famed Cimmerian wore. Anyone know how to get in touch with Alan Davis? 

The figure in Incomplete Death's Head#11-12 was definetly the famed Cimmerian, since party his hat read "Crom Rules".

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Mar 25, 2008 8:15 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Let's take the hypothetical position - and it IS strictly hypothetical - that you're right (hypothetically, that is) for a moment.

If, hypothetically, these were versions of Conan, then these hypothetical versions of Conan would not be the Marvel Universe Conan. So, even under this hypothetical scenario, it is completely irrelevant.

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Mar 25, 2008 9:39 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Well, IF it IS Conan ... it COULD be the MU Conan. Or it could, just as easily, be a Conan from any other alternate reality. So, it's not necessarily "irrelevant", there's just no way to tell.

And I'm pretty sure that the symbols on the medallion "Conan" is wearing have something to do with Otherworld, or Roma, or Saturnyne. I feel like I've seen 'em before in an Alan Davis book.

My point still stands: the original contention of whoever you quoted is incorrect -- the "Colin the Barbarian" title of #46 has ZIP to do with the identity of a muscular man appearing in #47.


>>>
Anyone know how to get in touch with Alan Davis?
<<<

Is there ANY way I can get you to knock off this line of thinking? "Oh, I know how to solve this! Let's track down a creator's contact information, just to ask them what they intended when they drew a throwaway guy in two panels of a comic sixteen years ago! He won't mind that!"

Every time you say things like "I wrote to John Byrne and asked him if he based his Dr. Doom origin on the Shroud's origin", or "face to face at a con, I pointed out to Peter David that Daredevil actually uncovered the Sin-Eater's identity", my skin crawls. What, exactly, is Peter David supposed to do with that information?

This is why fans get stereotyped the way they do in popular culture.

-Jeph!

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Mar 25, 2008 9:52 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
The figure in Incomplete Death's Head#11-12 was definetly the famed Cimmerian, since party his hat read "Crom Rules".
<<<

... ... ...the notion that he's WEARING A PARTY HAT, WRITTEN IN ENGLISH doesn't give you pause at all?

To heck with the English. He's wearing a party hat!

EDIT: I just checked the issue. He's also wearing a clown nose. I don't think this is Conan, Enda. At least not "our" Conan.

-Jeph!

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Mar 25, 2008 10:18 pm 
By ChastMastr

ROTFL. This is definitely not the Conan we're looking for. ("We can go about our business...")

			*	*	*

Mar 30, 2008 2:13 pm 
By Starman

SeanCurtin wrote:
>>>
This site has a mostly-complete chronology of the Conan comics, based on the timelines that Roy Thomas wrote for the Conan Saga reprint magazine.
<<<

I tried to sort my Conan comics collection with the help of that site a few years ago, but when I read all the comics in that order from the beginning to the end, many errors started to appear. I look forward to when we on the board start roll up our sleeves and try to find which order to place these stories. When that time comes, I volunteer to help analysing them, provided I don't have to do all of them myself. - Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

			*	*	*

Apr 01, 2008 11:36 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

SeanCurtin wrote:
>>>
This site has a mostly-complete chronology of the Conan comics, based on the timelines that Roy Thomas wrote for the Conan Saga reprint magazine.
<<<

As Enda pointed out, that website is missing several flashbacks. As Starman pointed out, that website has errors in the reading order. Finally, we don't use other websites alone as a reason to create or change MCP listings. While that website is a good starting point for chronology, it's going to take actual analysis of the Marvel Conan books by us to nail together a Conan MCP listing. 

>>>
Hulk look forward to when we on the board start roll up our sleeves and try to find which order to place these stories. When that time comes, Hulk volunteer to help analysing them, provided Hulk don't have to do all of them myself.
<<<

While there is not yet a "Call for Analysis" on these books, all Marvel Conan stories should be on the Checklist. You don't neccesarily need to wait for a "Call for Analysis", feel free to get the ball rolling yourself! 

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Apr 04, 2008 3:51 pm 
By ChastMastr

Yipes! I did not know that... as I accumulate back issues, I was hoping to organize them into chronological order and then read them, so I would start with stories of Conan's youth and (I assume?) end with his King Conan period... hmmm...

David

			*	*	*

Apr 04, 2008 8:13 pm 
By Adamant

I think the easiest way to go about this would be to do an analysis of all the Conan the Barbarian and King Conan books first, then do the Savage Sword books with their random chronology and put those stories between the issues where they fit.

			*	*	*

Thread 5

Subject: Apocalypse as Mah k'ina Tah Balam Ahau among the Mayans

Apr 05, 2008 12:30 pm 
By Enda80

Namor Annual#3/2 shows that Apocalypse lived as Mah k'ina Tah Balam Ahau" or "Lord Torch Jaguar among the Mayans in a fb. Was this every shown elsewhere? It might count as a new scene.

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Subject: Amazing Spider-Man 85-88 and others

Jan 02, 2008 3:55 pm 
By newtron

Hi, 
I'm reading / trying to read Spider-Man appearances in story order from the beginning. I've just recently got to ASM 85 and the next few issues following it. Currently the MCP lists the correct order as: 

-- 

ASM 85 
PUN:YO 2 
CA 130 
SS 14 
A 82 
ASM 86 
ASM 87 
ASM '96-FB 
WTS 4 
WTS 5 
WTS 6 
AA2 3/2 
ASM 88 

--- 

Based on my reading, I'm pretty sure this can't be right. For one thing, ASM 85-86-87 are a pretty tight story with not a lot of room to shove other stuff in. They also show a snow-covered NYC, which doesn't jive with PUN:YO, CA, or SS. Finally, the narration of A 82 says that it's September 21, 1970 and the Bugle in AA2 3/2 says that it's June 6, 1970. Placing June after September doesn't make a whole lot of sense. 

Here's my new proposed order based on what I've read (with my reasoning). 

--- 

ASM 85 
There's snow on the ground. Probably late winter / early spring - say late March or early April. 

ASM 86 
Immediately after ASM 85, as Spidey is thinking about his encounter with Kingpin from ASM 85 on the splash page. 

The only weird continuity thing here is that he mentions being sore from his fight with Kingpin (and later we see bruises from this), but in ASM 85 he didn't actually fight Kingpin. He did, however, get trapped in some metal cables that squeezed tight around him. This, combined with the fact that he is starting to come down with the flu (which weakens/negates his powers), could have caused the bruising and pain Spidey describes. 

There is still snow on the ground. 

AA2 1/2 
This has a flashback to ASM 86. 

ASM 87 
Continues directly from ASM 86. The snow on the ground has melted and there are leaves on the trees, so it's looking more like early spring. 

AA2 3/2 
A copy of the Bugle with the date June 6, 1970 is shown. This follows events in ASM 86, and the date goes well the seasonal stuff. 

PUN:YO 2 
This whole series seems to happen relatively quickly, and in the first issue the Castles are having a picnic, placing the timeline sometime in spring, summer, or early fall. The order of this could probably switch with either AA2 3/2 or CA 130. 

CA 130 
Has to occur before A 82 according to Captain America's chronology. The riots on a campus mean this probably occurs during the school year, so we can put it around early September. 

A 82 
Explicitly stated as September 21, 1970. The Daredevil and Human Torch chronologies show that this happens before SS 14 & 15 and Webspinners 4-6. 

SS 14 
After A 82 (see above), before Webspinners (see below). 

SS 15 
Flashback to SS 14. 

WTS 4, 5, 6 
Explicitly states that it's a couple weeks after the events in SS 14. 

ASM 88 
There's nothing really indicating where this goes, but I think it makes sense here. 

--- 

I haven't read any further than that. Are the any reasons why this order doesn't work?

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Jan 02, 2008 5:10 pm 
By newtron

Oops - looks like I put this in the wrong forum. Sorry about that. 

Also, I just read up to ASM 90, in which Capt. Stacy mentions Pete's flu from the previous couple issues. It looks like 88-90 won't work where I have them, but I'm sure they can be fit in somewhere. 

Dave

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Jan 03, 2008 2:19 am 
By JLH

newtron wrote:
>>>
PUN:YO 2
This whole series seems to happen relatively quickly, and in the first issue the Castles are having a picnic, placing the timeline sometime in spring, summer, or early fall. 
<<<

Yeah, the deaths of the Castle family are generally said to be in June, if I recall correctly.

			*	*	*

Jan 03, 2008 11:14 am 
By newtron

OK, I probably should have waited until posting initially, but I've hit more snags. 

- First, in Death & Destiny 1 (SM:D&D 1) there's a shot of the Bugle from sometime in the week following Capt. Stacy's death. It is dated June 7. This means that Stacy's death comes almost immediately before the events in AA2 3/2, but in that issue - in the same scene with the June 6th newspaper - Jameson says "Spider-who? I've forgotten all about him! He's stale news right now!". This, clearly, isn't true in the aftermath of Stacy's death. 

- Second, Gwen and Capt. Stacy both appear in WTS 4, so that has to be before Capt. Stacy's death. 

This can be solved if we assume that 1) the Human Torch and Daredevil chronologies are wrong, and the SS 14, SS 15, and WTS 4-6 happen before A 82, and 2) that the newspaper shown in AA2 3/2 is a flashforward. Lame? Maybe, but are there any compelling reasons we can't make those assumptions? 

--- 

ASM 85 
ASM 86 
(AA2 1/2 - Flashback) 
ASM 87 
SS 14 
(SS 15 - Flashback) 
WTS 4 
WTS 5 
WTS 6 

AA2 3/2 - everything except the splash page 
The paper shown in Jameson's hands is plausibly different than the one on the splash. We can treat all of Jameson's dialogue and the majority of the issue as happening before Stacy's death, which is why Spidey is not big news. The splash page with the Bugle, then, is a flash forward. 

ASM 88 
ASM 89 
ASM 90 

PUN:YO 2 
According to JLH this is in June. It could easily fit anywhere between here and the SM:D&D stuff, which all (or mostly) takes place in June (according to papers shown in the issues). 

AA2 3/2 - splash page 
The splash of this issue shows the Bugle and the date. It is the interior of the paper, not the front page. This makes sense if the Captain Stacy stories are on the front page, and the news about the Black Widow is delegated to later pages. 

SM:D&D 1 - until the funeral 
ASM 91 - until about page 9 
SM:D&D 1 - after the funeral 
ASM 91 - about page 10 onwards 
ASM 92 
SM:D&D 2 
SM:D&D 3 

... 
CA 130 
A 82 

--- 

I've left out everything I haven't read. The issues that are missing are: 
ASM '96-FB 
ASM 365/3-FB 
PPSM2 26-FB 

Sound good? I'm not sure how much later CA 130 and A 82 have to come. Perhaps a whole bunch more Spidey issues will have to fit in before them. 

Dave

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Jan 03, 2008 5:17 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Tip: aside from Paul B. and his calendar, I don't think the MCP considers dates on a newspaper as a determining factor for chronological placement. Nine times out of ten the dates are just made up and tossed onto the page by the artist or letterer, and don't really work when compared to the made-up dates found in another comic. 

If you start re-ordering chronologies based mainly on random, made-up dates found in tiny print at the top of the Bugle, you're in for a long and difficult road. That way lies madness. Even Paul B. will be the first to tell you that sometimes you've just gotta disregard those types of "clues" in the face of larger contextual evidence. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jan 03, 2008 10:41 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yup, that's right. All (or most) other things being equal, I'll consider dates as clues for placement, but I don't believe that in this sequence of events all things are equal. I admit I haven't reviewed your suggested changes in detail, neutron, but I can say that the basic calendar in this period of MU history has been set by various Marvel Indexes, and continuity implants set in this period end up getting placed according to how they relate to previously published stories more than to dates noted in the implant stories themselves. It's a well-known fact that writers of Marvel continuity implant stories never consult those Indexes for the kinds of temporal details we're discussing.  A lot of these dates end up getting consigned to "topical" status.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jan 03, 2008 11:54 pm 
By newtron

i see your points about the dates - i've already got a taste of what kind of nightmare it would be to try and use them - but i think the other contextual clues i was following make sense. things like the snow/weather, and simply the tight sequence of events in some of the issues, make me think the order in there's not right. 

obviously i will defer to you guys, as i'm sure this ground has been tread before.  

thanks for the feedback.the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Jan 28, 2008 1:21 pm 
By JLH

Hey!  I just realized, my Webspinner analyses are on the MCP now!

			*	*	*

Jan 28, 2008 2:20 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Looks like that Dr Strange placement I objected to (with him in his house with the big window, when he'd abandoned it and boarded it up; wearing his original costume when he'd given up magic to the point he depowered himself) made it in though... 

			*	*	*

Jan 28, 2008 5:05 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

JLH wrote:
>>>
Hey!  I just realized, my Webspinner analyses are on the MCP now!
<<<

We add to/update the listings almost every day now, although several months can pass before we officially announce the updates. Over a hundred books have been added in the last couple of months (which STILL isn't enough to keep up with Marvel's output, but...)


watching: weather channel

			*	*	*

Apr 06, 2008 12:22 pm 
By newtron

Hi,

I have no idea if Paul (or anyone) has an interest in stretching the calendar back this far, but I just thought I'd mention another date discrepancy I came across. The captions in ASM 145 specify that the Scorpion's bank robbery happens in March, while a few issues later in Marvel Team-Up 34 the captions mention that it's late February. I don't really think there's any way to reconcile this, other than saying that it's an error.

Anyway, I totally see what you guys were saying before about how maddening this could be.

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Apr 07, 2008 6:29 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

In OMITASM 6, Olshevsky notes that ASM 145 "cannot be a 'March day,' as noted in panel 7, page 7. March is a topical reference to the month in which the issue was placed on sale." Olshevsky says "it is not yet New Year's Eve."

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Apr 07, 2008 6:36 pm 
By newtron

ah, thanks paul. i've been meaning to take a look at those indeces.

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Apr 07, 2008 7:26 pm 
By Enda80

One small clue about the placement of ASM I#85 comes from the Avengers Index:
George Olshevksy's Avengers Index#3. In that issue, he discusses Avengers I#61, and notes that some freak weather conditions, such as the abnormally premature snowstorms seen in Elektra: Assassin, were caused by the battle between Ymir and Surtur in Avengers I#61, as well as by the events of Incredible Hulk I#109-110 (in which a large machine that affected the Earth's rotation existed in the Savage Land  this machine was the Planet-Destroyer, which was a weapon of the Sagittarians, used in the service of the Galaxy Master. It is seen in the profile for Umbu the Unliving). Thus, some of the events of Elektra: Assassin took place around the time of other stories with premature snowstorms, such as Amazing Spider-Man I#85, Incredible Hulk I#115, and Daredevil I#52-53. These premature snowstorms came ever now and then during a period of two or three months following the events of Avengers I#61. Further, Avengers I#61 took place towards the end of the third week of September of Peter Parker's sophomore year in college. So, we can nail things down ever further.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektra:_Assassin"

			*	*	*

Apr 07, 2008 9:30 pm 
By jephyork
Director

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3449&p=23088#p23088

I feel like you've mentioned this factoid before...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Subject: Black Panther Annual 1

Feb 28, 2008 4:21 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

There is no present day portion in this Annual. It takes place in the future at the wedding of TChallas & Ororos son to Luke Cages daughter. There are FlashBacks to the history of slavery, and Wakandas part in it. Then there are FlashBacks to our future, where Wakanda takes over the world. 

The Black Panther that appears here doesnt get a name, but seeing as hes a Black Panther, he should still get a listing. The earliest one weve seen so far was in BP4 1-FB, fighting off invading African forces, then another one later, fighting off invading European forces. 

BLACK PANTHER
BP4 1-FB (5th Century)

BLACK PANTHER II
BP@ 1-FB
BP4 1-FB (19th Century)

The dialogue suggests the Europeans didnt know about Wakanda until the African slave-sellers told them about it. The ancestor of Klaw couldnt have attacked(as seen in BP4 1-FB) until after the Europeans were informed.

This would require the other Black Panthers to be bumped up a notation each, like so:

BLACK PANTHER III/CHANDA 

BLACK PANTHER IV/T'CHAKA 

BLACK PANTHER V/T'CHALLA 

The Black Panther of the 19th Century sends a letter to various heads of state. Abraham Lincoln and his wife are seen, as is Queen Victoria Hanover:

LINCOLN, ABRAHAM
*BP@ 1-FB
M/CP 161

TODD, MARY
BP@ 1-FB

QUEEN VICTORIA HANOVER
BP@ 1-FB

The Golden Frogs appear here... they would get listings, right? They're sentient, but they really don't have names. I guess we could just list them under 'Golden Frog', and if so, this Annual appearance would go at least before their appearances in BP4.(they're time travelling frogs) I'm not sure if this would go before their Kirby Panther appearances or not, though. I don't have those issues. If it matters, King Solomon also appears. It's still in the future, as it follows one of the frog's chat with the future Uatu.

Oh yeah, Uatu the Watcher is seen in the future, but being that its in the future, theres no placement to suggest. I just thought Id throw that out there for all you Uatu collectors. 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 11, 2008 3:44 am 
By wolframbane

Col_Fury wrote:
The Black Panther of the 19th Century sends a letter to various heads of state. Abraham Lincoln and his wife are seen, as is Queen Victoria Hanover:

QUEEN VICTORIA HANOVER
BP@ 1-FB


Queen Victoria also appeared in Howard the Duck v3 #3, first as a flashback, then later as a spirit. She was a possessor of the Doucheblade, which is later given the more politically correct name of "Gub-gala-emegir," which in Sumerian roughly translates as "Cleansing Blade," according to the Pazuzu entry of Marvel Zombies: The Book of Angels, Demons, & Various Monstrosities. I would suggest:

QUEEN VICTORIA HANOVER
BP@ 1-FB
HTD3 3

Other possessors of the blade (which is an obvious parody of Witchblade) are Jane Austen, Hatshesut of Egypt, Hippolyte (Hippolyta), Howard the Duck, Joan of Arc, Queen Victoria, Suzi Pazuzu, Eleanor Roosevelt and Vicki of Humbabu. 
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/amuletofpazuzu.htm

We may be able to find a place for the appearance of Hippolyte somewhere. Do any of the other characters appear anywhere?

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Subject: Hulk #344

Mar 15, 2008 11:21 pm 
By Carl Creel

Can anyone tell me who the two characters are in Hulk #344, page 16, panel 3? (the left page in the middle spread). I dont think this was ever revealed but maybe I missed something.

			*	*	*

Apr 13, 2008 11:01 pm 
By Carl Creel

Ok, I posted this same question over at the Comic Book resources forum and got an answer from Peter David. The two characters are supposed to be the wizards from Jarellas world from hulk 351 and 352. McFarlane just drew them wrong.

			*	*	*

Apr 14, 2008 10:21 am 
By rhod

Thanks CC, I'm reading the Peter Daivd Hulk Visionaries series at the moment and was wondering this myself.

"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

			*	*	*

Apr 16, 2008 11:27 pm 
By Carl Creel

No problem! The way to cover McFarlanes mistake would be to simply say the wizards were just changing their form for some reason.

			*	*	*

Thread 9

Subject: Wolverine: First Class

Dec 06, 2007 5:32 pm 
By Somebody
Director

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.co ... rst-class/ 

And the third verse is in the same key as the first two  

Fred Van Lente wrote:
>>>
2. These adventures of Wolverine and Kitty are going to be in Marvel continuity, right?

Yes, the first eight issues are set between X-MEN #139 and #150, so right after Jean Greys funeral at the end of the Dark Phoenix Saga and right after Kitty Pryde shows up at Xaviers school. Cyclops has struck out on his own after Jeans death, leaving Storm the new leader.

3. How closely did you pay attention to the older issues of Uncanny that these stories are told in between? Is this similar to Untold Tales of Spider-Man, or is it a lot freer than that?

I think the average fan would be shocked to learn how much time and energy Marvel puts into getting continuity 100% right. Given the number of books and creators and the history involved perfection is never achieved, but when I started working here I was somewhat stunned at how seriously continuity is taken.

In fact, Marvel has a team of four or so crack X-Perts who pour over each Wolverine First Class script and make sure every iota slides neatly into the X-Men era mention above. You should see the memos I get! But its cool, it actually has enhanced the scripts and certainly hasnt prevented me from telling any stories I want to tell.

And it means all our First Class tales are official parts of X-Men lore, in 616? continuity, as they say, which is really exciting.
<<<

And yet, they've gone to the trouble of putting the wrong Wolvie costume in the cover

			*	*	*

Dec 06, 2007 6:32 pm 
By loki

Nope. Fred misspoke. The stories are set between #138 and #150. Kitty joined in #138. Wolverine didn't change costumes until #139. So there is a small window for her to be at the school and him to be in the yellow costume.

			*	*	*

Dec 06, 2007 8:57 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

So First Class is doing so well that it's getting a sequel? That's pretty cool.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Dec 06, 2007 9:00 pm 
By Somebody
Director

No - it got a sequel (v2). This is a spin-off running alongside it 

			*	*	*

Dec 07, 2007 5:28 am 
By Starman

Fred Van Lente wrote:
>>>
About Wolvies costume: 

My bad, I contradicted myself in the interview. I said both that the series takes place between #139 and #150 _and_ that it takes place between Jean Greys funeral and Cyclops return, which are not the same thing. 

The latter statement is the more accurate one. 

Jeans funeral and Kittys arrival at the school both occur in #138 and Wolvie, as Brian pointed out, doesnt get the brown costume until #139. 

Wolverine First Class #1 takes place between #138 and #139, so our cover has got the right costume for him. 

Like I said: were trying our darnedest to get the continuity right on this one.
<<<

- Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

			*	*	*

Dec 07, 2007 2:26 pm 
By Ocean Doot

So that cover features Kitty circa X-Men 138, huh? I wonder if the first story involves her getting temporary breast implants for an undercover assignment ...

			*	*	*

Dec 07, 2007 3:45 pm 
By Starman

Drastic measures like surgery is not necessary. It's not uncommon for teen-girls to stuff their bras. 

- Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

			*	*	*

Feb 29, 2008 7:14 pm 
By Somebody
Director

First preview's up: http://comicsnewsi.net/g/?mode=album&al ... _Class%2F1

Is that a Frontal Lobe Chamber I see before me?

			*	*	*

Mar 21, 2008 12:31 pm 
By Somebody
Director

#1 lettered preview: http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/ ... i?id=13449

			*	*	*

Mar 21, 2008 1:22 pm 
By Starman

I see that Xavier mentions Magneto's Brotherhood even though Magneto didn't have a brotherhood at this point, unless I'm misremembering something... 

- Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

			*	*	*

Mar 22, 2008 1:35 am 
By wolframbane

An observations, based on the preview, the date is given as August 20 (for Paul Bourcier's timeline notes).

			*	*	*

Mar 22, 2008 5:37 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

That's several weeks earlier than my estimate, which in turn is earlier than Olshevsky's estimate. The Official Marvel Index to the X-Men, Vol. 1 placed the Hellfire Saga in late October while I place it in late September. The reference to "mid-winter" in the Hellfire Saga was noted as topical.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 23, 2008 12:18 am 
By wolframbane

Also, UX 171 states that the night Phoenix died (as well as the night that Madeline Pryor believed she had her plane crash) was omn September 1.

			*	*	*

Apr 07, 2008 1:54 am 
By wolframbane

For placement of this story, it would be after UX 138, when Kitty moved to the mansion, but before UX 139, when she was first shown in costume. In W:FC 1, she states it is the first time she is in costume. Wolverine was last shown in his yellow costume in UX 137 and UX@ 4, and then in his brown costume in UX 139, and is in his yellow costume in W:FC 1. I cannot say if he will continue to wear his yellow costume throughout the series, but if he does and it overlaps with post-UX 139, we could assume he alternates. I would suggest:

ANGEL III/WARREN KENNETH WORTHINGTON III 
...
UX 138
M/TE 27
W:FC 1
UX 139
...

COLOSSUS III/PETER RASPUTIN
...
UX 138
UX@ 4
*W:FC 1
UX 139
...

NIGHTCRAWLER/KURT WAGNER 
...
UX 138
UX@ 4
*W:FC 1
UX 139
...

PROFESSOR X
...
UX 138
UX@ 4
*W:FC 1
UX 139
...

SHADOWCAT/KATHERINE "KITTY" PRYDE 
...
UX 138
UX@ 4
*W:FC 1
UX 139
...

STORM
...
UX 138
UX@ 4
*W:FC 1
UX 139
...

WOLVERINE
...
UX 138
UX@ 4
*W:FC 1
UX 139
...

			*	*	*

Apr 07, 2008 2:06 am 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
I cannot say if he will continue to wear his yellow costume throughout the series
<<<

I'm fairly sure that early interviews have said that, after this first issue, he'll switch to the brown costume.

Fingers crossed.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 21, 2008 2:39 pm 
By loki

jephyork wrote:
>>>
I'm fairly sure that early interviews have said that, after this first issue, he'll switch to the brown costume.
<<<

He will.

			*	*	*

Thread 10

Subject: CA5 37-FB

Apr 27, 2008 3:08 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Captain America v5 37-FB shows Cap & Bucky celebrating with Allied troops and French citizens after the liberation of Paris, with the Red Skull watching from a nearby bombed out building. 

The liberation of Paris has already been shown in Tales of Suspense 77/2, Captain America v5 3 & Captain America v5 25, so this is obviously an extension of those scenes. Therefore:

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS
...
TOS 77/2 (3-5)-FB
CA5 3 (16-18:1)-FB (08/44)
CA5 25 (7:2-7:3)-FB
TOS 77/2 (6-10:6)-FB
CA5 3 (18:2)-FB
*CA5 37-FB (08/44)
CA: DMR 2-FB
...

BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN BUCKY BARNES
...
CA '01-FB (08/44)
CA5 25 (3)-FB
CA5 3-FB (08/44)
*CA5 37-FB (08/44)
CA5 12 (14-15)-FB, (18-19)-FB (09/44)
CA5 15-FB
...

RED SKULL II/JOHANN SCHMIDT
...
CA '01 (08/44) 
*CA5 37-FB (08/44)
CA5 15-FB
...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Subject: IM3 78

Apr 28, 2008 1:11 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Iron Man v3 78 is already in Stu Conrad's chronology, but it's missing from everyone else's: 

IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK

IM3 77
*IM3 78
H3 72


BUSH, GEORGE W.

IM3 74
*IM3 78
IM3 79

BURCH, SONNY 
IM3 82-FB
{IM3 73}
IM3 74
IM3 75
IM3 76
IM3 77
*IM3 78

RAYBURN, COMMANDER JOHN 
IM3 74
IM3 75
IM3 76
IM3 77
*IM3 78
IM3 79

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 12

Subject: Some Adam Warlock Chronology corrections proposal

Apr 26, 2008 9:46 am 
By Ethain

Adam Warlock collector is back. I've been comparing the chronology with my collection, I've taken some notes and here is the results. There's still some work to do, but this is my proposal by now:

FF 66-FB-BTS
FF 66-BTS
{FF 67}~H2 @6 FB~Q 57 FB
M/TIO 61 FB
T 165-FB
T 163-BTS
T 164
T 165
T 166
M/PRM 1~PPTSS @8/4
[...]
WLOCK 8
H2 176
H2 177~PPTSS @8/4
H2 178
[...]
WLOCK 15
M/TU 55~H2 248 FB
M/TIO 62-FB~PPTSS @8/4
A@ 7~SS3 36 FB~S-H3 13 FB
M/TIO@ 2~H2 248 FB~M/TIO 61 FB~A FINALE~Death of Cap. Marvel GN
M/TIO 63
SS3 7 BTS
SS3 46
SS3 47
SS3 48
SS3 50
IG 1
[...]
WIW 7
WIW 7 ~ IW 1
DLOCK2 16
IW 2
IW 3
SSWP 5
M/CP 108/4
[...]
MK3 44
SS3 75 [cover]
FF 370
IW 6
WIW 11 [lots of FBs, I have to work this yet]
WIW 12
Cyber Space 3000 6 [Marvel UK]
Cyber Space 3000 7 [Marvel UK]
Cyber Space 3000 8 [Marvel UK]
WIW 14
[...]
WCHRON 6
STARBLAST 1
Q 54
WIW 23
T 469
SS3 87
WCHRON 7
WIW 24
T 470
SS3 88
WCHRON 8
WIW 25
T 471
STARBLAST 1 [Why here, according the published chronology?]
WIW 26
[...]
SS3 94
H2 418 [cameo]
WIW 34
[...]
WIW 41
AR Collectors Preview [cover cameo]
WIW 42
RUNE/SS 1
RUNE/SS 2
ULTRAU 2-FB [can't find Warlock here, but it's in published chronology...]
CURSE 4
RUNEI
RUNE2 1
RUNE2 2
RUNE2 3
RUNE2 6
RUNE2 7
ULTRAU 2 [can't find Warlock here, but it's in published chronology...]
ULTRAU 1
[...]
WLOCK3 4
JLA/A 2 [tiny cameo]
IA 1-FB
[...]
IA 6
The End 1
The End 5
The End 6
Thanos 1
Thanos 2
Thanos 3
Thanos 4
Thanos 6
WLOCK5 1 BTS
WLOCK5 2 BTS
WLOCK5 3 BTS
WLOCK5 4
S-H3 7
S-H3 8
ANNI Conquest Prologue BST
ANNI Conquest: Q2 1 BTS
ANNI Conquest: Q2 2 BTS
ANNI Conquest: Q2 3 BTS
ANNI Conquest: Q2 4
ANNI:CONQUEST 1
ANNI:CONQUEST 2
ANNI:CONQUEST 3
ANNI:CONQUEST 4
ANNI:CONQUEST 5
ANNI:CONQUEST 6

Last edited by Ethain on Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

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Apr 26, 2008 1:37 pm 
By Arthur
Director

I think the qualifications for your personal collection are a just a little bit different than the Project's...


I didnt detail your entire post but some quick observations:

The depictions of Warlock in H@ 6 (pg. 8) and Q 57 (pg. 8) are retellings, not true flashbacks (no new information added). In the project only the original appearance is listed.

Similiarly H2 248 (5:4) is identical to M/TU 55 (16:2). H2 248 (5:5) shows Warlock and Spidey watching the Gardener depart, which could be placed between panels 17:3 (Gardener still close to Spidey) and 17:4 (Gardener disappearing into space). Although no new information is really added, the scene is at a different point in time, so

*M/TU 55 (1-17:3)
**H2 248 (5:5)-FB
*M/TU 55 (17:4-17:8)


A@ 7~SS3 36 FB~S-H3 13 FB The scene in SS3 36 (7:2) shows the Avengers with Warlock invading Thanos ship. If this is a new scene, could you provide page panel references as to where it should fit within A@ 7? S-H3 13 ... She-Hulk vol 3(2004) only had 12 issues.

M/TIO@ 2~H2 248 FB~M/TIO 61 FB~A FINALE~Death of Cap. Marvel GNIf these are flashbacks with new information, they should be fitted in somewhere between panels of M/TIO@ 2. If they do not have new information, they do not belong in the project.

SS3 7-BTSwhat exactly gives the BTS?

SS3 50Warlocks face appears on Pg 9, but this is just a montage of faces in the Surfers memory. Warlock does not really make an appearance in SS3 50. (as per FAQ... If the character is saying something like, "I have a lot of friends I can depend on," or "I've fought a lot of evil guys," and floating heads appear around that character, those don't qualify for a listing in the MCP. ) The project listings are restricted to quantifiable appearances (ones that can be placed in a character's chronology).

SS3 75 cover... only in-story appearances are included in the project

			*	*	*

Apr 28, 2008 12:57 pm 
By Ethain

Sorry, I didn't know the difference between Flashback and Retelling, thanks. So FB is only used if new information is provided, note taken. I saw that the sign ~ was like "also seen in", so I included other places where some scene were identical or almost identical, so I put ~ [...] FB where that happens. I see now that if I apply the no-new information rule -that I didn't know-, ~ and FB can't be in same line, ok.

S-H3 13 is S-H4 13, but anyway I'll remove it because all happens within Thanos mind.

H2 248 FB~M/TIO 61 FB~A FINALE~Death of Cap. Marvel GN are retellings. SS3 7 BTS too.

Note taken for non-chronological appearances like floating heads o covers.

Thanks for you help. I hope that anyway there will be some usable information in my list 

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Subject: President and Eleanor Roosevelt appearances

Apr 28, 2008 12:57 pm 
By wolframbane

I found some appearances for President and Eleanor Roosevelt. An early appearance for President Roosevelt in the Electro story of MARVEL MYSTERY 12/5 (Oct 1940). This probably occurs before his appearance in HUMAN TORCH 3/3 (Winter 1940-1941). Eleanor was shown as one of the holders of the "Gub-gala-emegir" (or Cleansing Blade) in HTD3 3, in both a flashback and as a spirit. I would suggest:

ROOSEVELT, ELEANOR 
MSU 9
*HTD3 3-FB
*HTD3 3

ROOSEVELT, FRANKLIN DELANO 
*MARVEL MYSTERY 12/5
HUMAN TORCH 3/3
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1
...

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Subject: Jimmy Carter

Apr 28, 2008 7:34 pm 
By newtron

Jimmy Carter's appearance in Marvel Two-in-One 27 isn't listed. Impossible Man is disguised as Carter for most of the book, but the real one does make an appearance in the last panel.

suggested placement (just a guess, really):

CARTER, JAMES EARL JR. 
HTD 8
M/TIO 27
CB 27
...

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

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Thread 15

Subject: First appearance of Earth-616?

Apr 21, 2008 9:35 pm 
By wolframbane

I know that FF 1 (Nov 1961) is considered the first MODERN appearance of Earth-616 and the Marvel Universe. But does anyone know what issue published by Timely/Atlas/Marvel could be considered the first ACTUAL appearance? Where there any issues published prior to Marvel Comics #1 (Oct 1939) that contained characters that are definatively considered part of modern Marvel continuity?

			*	*	*

Apr 22, 2008 1:13 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Motion Pictures Funnies Weekly was published before Marvel Comics #1, and contained the first appearance of Namor. It was then reprinted & expanded on in the third story in Marvel Comics #1.

-Daron Jensen

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Apr 22, 2008 2:27 pm 
By ShadZ

Some may argue that literary works that have been adopted into Earth-616 (like Dracula and Frankenstein) may count as earlier examples. I would disagree, because none of them have been brought in unadulterated; they have all been adapted in some way or another...ShadZ

			*	*	*

Apr 22, 2008 11:05 pm 
By wolframbane

Even some pulp era characters have been brought in. For example, Ka-Zar first appeared in a series of novels from 1936.

I was curious if there were any characters in the canon MU that precede Sub-Mariner in Timely Comics?

			*	*	*

Apr 28, 2008 11:21 pm 
By Adamant

The first Namor story was first printed in MPCW#!, which predated Marvel Comics #1, but was never really published.
The first Ka-Zar pulp novel was adapted in the first few issues of Marvel Mystery Comics, and Ka-Zar met the Torch in one story, so it counts too.
Bram Stoker's Dracula is canon to the Marvel universe, and is even older.

			*	*	*

Apr 29, 2008 12:19 pm 
By rhod

Not sure what the point of this thread is, but just to add to it, God was in a recent issue of FF, and I think his first published appearance was a good while before even Dracula. 

"What no ten-dollar words? No witty repartee? Aren't you gonna do anything other than bleed?" - Victor Creed XF125

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Apr 29, 2008 7:18 pm 
By Starman

Well, then I probably can add that the Egyptian gods first publications probably predates the first publications of the god from Judaism, Christianity and Islam. 

- Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

			*	*	*

Apr 29, 2008 7:37 pm 
By PopularLoser

What about Odin and the other gods from Norse Mythology?

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Apr 30, 2008 4:23 pm 
By ChastMastr

Ah, but (regardless of one's beliefs about them) none of those deities has shown up as a character in the MU without being changed any more than Dracula, etc., so... 

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Apr 30, 2008 5:32 pm 
By Enda80

Issues of Master of Kung-Fu actually footnote reference at least two of Sax Rohmer's Fu Manchu novels. In contrast to their Conan adaptations, MVL did not actually do full-fledged direct adaptations of individual Fu Manchu novels. Therefore, Rohmer's Fu Manchu novels may count as Earth-616 canon.

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Subject: Franklin Richards: Spring Break 1

Mar 26, 2008 4:25 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Franklin Richards: Spring Break 1
May, 2008

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, HERBIE

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5
Using some old blueprints he found in his dads lab, Franklin builds an Iron Man suit. After accidentally bringing the weapons systems on-line, he & HERBIE power down the suit. 

References: 
Franklin found the blueprints, Mr. Fantastic is NOT BTS here. 

HERBIE calls it a suit of Iron Man Mark 01 armor. Thats what theyre calling it in the new movie coming up, but its really just his original grey armor. It looks more like the movie version, but if it doesnt quite line up with the blueprints, well, it WAS assembled by a grade school kid. 

Franklin Richards: Spring Break 1/2

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5
Franklin tries to use a time controller he found in his dads lab to get an edge in dodgeball. He cant quite figure out how to work it, and ends up speeding up time instead of slowing it down, resulting in the dodgeballs hitting him even faster than normal. Later in math class, he ends up slowing down time instead of speeding it up. 

Franklin Richards: Spring Break 1/3

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, Katie Power, HERBIE, Mr. Fantastic-BTS

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5
Franklin & Katie are at the schools science fair, where Franklin has made an actual mini volcano. It erupts, spewing lava all over the place, melting the floor. After calling his dad for hypothetical advice, he freezes the lava with another students liquid nitrogen. 

References: 
Franklin calls his dad, we dont see him or hear his end of the conversation, giving him a BTS. 

Franklin Richards: Spring Break 1/4

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, HERBIE, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Human Torch, Thing-BTS

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5
Mr. Fantastic leaves an unlabeled beaker out when the Invisible Woman calls him into the lab. Franklin happens by and drinks it, giving him uncontrollable and powerful belching powers. Hes knocked into the lab where his parents are fighting off an invasion of bubble creatures, and his belches are the only thing that affects them. Soon afterwards the bubble creatures have been taken care of, and the Human Torch appears, thanking Mr. Fantastic for the belching formula. He won his burping contest with the Thing!

References: 
The Thing does not appear, but were told what hes up to, giving him a BTS. 

Mr. Fantastic has recently put in a new automatic cleaning system, as a response to Franklins & HERIEs recent adventures. 

Franklin Richards: Spring Break 1/5

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, HERBIE

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5
HERBIE wants to play video games with Franklin, but Franklin thinks HERBIE doesnt know how to have fun. Curious, HERBIE downloads some of Franklins video games and goes crazy. Together they tear up Franklins play room, destroying the TV and pretty much everything else. Franklin resets HERBIE, and he deletes his corrupted files. HERBIE reveals he did it because of Franklins perception of him, and Franklin reassures HERBIE that he likes him just the way he is.

-Daron Jensen

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Apr 03, 2008 6:23 pm 
By PaxHouse

So Katie Power mades a third appearance within the FR: SOAG One shots, eh...??  

Let's hope that the next FR:SOAG will have some of Katie's siblings soon.....  

PaxHouse.

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Thread 17

Subject: April call for analyses

Apr 01, 2008 9:33 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Time for another call, with this one avoiding all first-person singular pronouns!
Y'all know the drill. Continued thanks to all those who post analyses.  

Completed stories (as of 4/1/08)
Annihilation: Conquest  Quasar #1-4 (Somebody)
Annihilation: Conquest  Wraith #1-4 (Somebody)
Daredevil: Battlin Jack Murdock #1-4 (JD)
Immortal Iron Fist: Orson Randall and the Green Mist of Death (Don)

Future stuff
Annihilation: Conquest #1-6 (Somebody)
Angel: Revelations #1-5
ClanDestine v2 #1-5 (Don)
Daredevil v2 #107-110
Daredevil: Blood of the Tarantula
Dead of Night Featuring Man-Thing #1-4
Eternals, v? #1-?
Foolkiller v2 #1-5
Franklin Richards: Not-So-Secret Invasion
Ghost Rider v6 #20-23
Ghost Rider v6 #24
Guardians of the Galaxy v2 #1-?
Hulk: Raging Thunder
Immortal Iron Fist #10-14 (Don)
Immortal Iron Fist #16
Logan #1-3 (Col_Fury)
Moon Knight v5 #14-19
Nova v4 #8-12 and Nova Annual #1 (Somebody)
Nova v4 #13-15
Punisher v7 #56-? (Col_Fury)
Punisher War Journal v2 #18-23
Punisher Max: Little Black Book
Runaways v2 #25-30 (JD)
Skaar: Son of Hulk #1-?
Spider-Man Family v2 #8 
Spider-Man Family v2 #9
Thor: Ages of Thunder - Reign of Blood
Wolverine v3 #62-65 (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: Dangerous Game (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: Origins #21-25 (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: The Amazing Immortal Man and Other Bloody Tales (Col_Fury)
X-Men Origin: Colossus

Im assuming the upcoming Spider-Man Magazine features only reprinted stories.

Paul B.

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Apr 02, 2008 9:24 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Daredevil v2 #101-105 is up, and I'll get to 106 soon. 

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Foolkiller v2 #1-5 [done yet?]
<<<

Not yet, there's still one more issue to go. 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Wolverine v3 #62-65
Wolverine: Dangerous Game
<<<

So you decided against the Divided We Stand arc? If so, I can do both of these.

-Daron Jensen

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Apr 02, 2008 9:58 am 
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Completed stories (as of 4/1/08)
Runaways v2 #25-30 (JD)
<<<

#30 has been delayed to mid-May. AGAIN. Sigh.

			*	*	*

Apr 03, 2008 6:56 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, guys. I updated the call, and threw in the current arc in PWJ2. I flipped through issue #18 yesterday and decided to pass after all.

Paul B.

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Apr 09, 2008 11:41 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Punisher 56 ends with a 'to be continued...', and I'm not sure how many issues this arc is going to last. I already covered the first one, but I'll wait until the arc is over before I do the rest. Whenever that is.

-Daron Jensen

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Thread 18

Subject: Daredevil 106

Apr 10, 2008 1:11 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Daredevil #106
May, 2008

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Ben Urich, Foggy Nelson, Dakota North, Milla Donovan-BTS

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg9
In the offices of Front Line, Ben Urich has to tell one of his writers to back off the Daredevil/Matt Murdock/Mr. Fear/Milla Donovan/Mental Hospital story. Its been a month and Front Line doesnt pick at scabs; theyre not paparazzi. Meanwhile, Daredevil beats the hell out of some gangbangers in Hells Kitchen. Later that night, Ben tries to call Matt at home(again) but the machine picks up. On the other end of the phone line, Foggy wanders around Matts place looking for him and stumbles across him in the dark. After Foggy tries and fails to convince Matt to come back to the office, Matt jumps out the window as Daredevil into the rainy night to beat up more hooligans. 
Pg10-pg22: next day
Ben & Foggy meet for breakfast and chat about Matts state of mind. Meanwhile, Dakota drives Matt to the Broadmore Mental Hospital to visit Milla. However, her doctor informs Matt that his frequent visits are hindering her progress and that he needs to stop for a while. Matts upset by this, so he and Dakota hit the bar for a couple of drinks. Things turn ugly when Matt starts a bar fight, and Dakota gets them both out of there pretty quick. Matt says he heard some people planning a robbery and decided to scare them out of it, but Dakotas worried about his judgment in doing it as Matt Murdock and not as Daredevil. She calls Ben to keep him in the loop, and he ends up making a J. Jonah Jameson style threat to keep a writer off a Daredevil story. He silently curses Matt for making him resort to J. Jonah Jameson style threats. 

References: 
Its stated several times by different characters that its been a month since last issue. Its been a month since Milla was admitted, its been a month since Matts been to work, its been a month since hes been visiting Milla, its been a month since Front Line has run a story about the Mr. Fear mess. Theres some leeway there, though, in that not all of that stuff happened on the same day. So take your pick, really. 

Its raining in New York on pg1-pg9. 

Milla does not appear, but Matt is visiting her and her doctor is speaking for her, giving her a BTS.

-Daron Jensen

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Apr 10, 2008 10:16 am 
By ShadZ

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Milla does not appear, but Matt is visiting her and her doctor is speaking for her, giving her a BTS.
<<<

Unless we find out later that some sort of evil plot is going on, and the doctor isn't really speaking for her, or she's not really there, etc.

Just sayn', it could happen...

ShadZ

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Thread 19

Subject: Conspiracy #1-2

Apr 08, 2008 1:33 pm 
By wolframbane

Here is my review for the CONSPIRACY mini-series. Thanks to Enda for getting me interested in this series and for posting some of his own notes. This series was fun as it held many revelations of the Silver Age. I also want to thank Col_Fury for his WWII notes and Paul Bourcier for his feedback .

The modern portions of the story are definitely canon. However, the flashbacks and revelations may be suspect, not because the story may or may not be non-canon, but because most of the revelations are told by General Harrison or the Cliff Garner LMD, and may be actual facts, or lies and misinformation, or delusions on the part of Harrison. For the purposes of the chronology, I will assume they these events actually happened (they do not actually conflict with any established events).

CONSPIRACY #1
"Book One: Show and Tell"
February 1998
30 pages

Synopsis:
DAY ONE
Page 1-3. A battle between Spidercide and Jackal causes damage to the offices of the Daily Bugle, while reporter Mark Ewing speaks to his girlfriend Monique on the phone.
NOTES: This occurs simultaneously with MC:O. Paul Bourcier tentatively places this circa May, YEAR 18.

Page 4. After the battle, Damage Control cleans up the mess and reporter Mark Ewing finds files left behind by former reporter Cliff Garner, as well as a bank deposit box key in Punios Verde.

Page 5:1-5:2. Ewing researches Garner's history in the microfiche library.

Page 5:3. Flashback. Photograph of Garner receiving journalism award.
NOTES: Probably before Garner's reputation became strained during his research into Control.

Page 5:4-6:2. Ben Urich tells Ewing more about Garner, who had went missing "ten years ago".
NOTES: Garner probably went missing circa YEAR 8. Page 5:4 shows random photographs of the Avengers (Ant-Man, Iron Man, Hulk, Wasp and Thor), the FF (Mr. fantastic, Invisible Girl, Thing and Human Torch), the Hulk, and General Harrison.

Page 6:3-7:5. Flashback to "forty-two". Garner is a soldier at a Washington AFB when the Invaders (Captain America, Human Torch, Toro) arrive to borrow a plane to rescue Churchill in the Bermuda Triangle. The commander Slinkard decides to press charges. Garner decides to become a reporter.
NOTES: This occurs simultaneously with INV 4. Col_Fury places this circa Jan 14, 1942. Garner had told this story to Ben Urich, Robbie Robertson and Phil Sheldon (of MARVELS 1-4).

Page 8:1. Flashback. The newly formed Avengers (Giant-Man, Wasp, Iron Man, Thor) appear outside before gathered reporters including Garner.
NOTES: Due to the Avengers' costumes and the absence of the Hulk, this probably is the between A 4 (8:3) and A 4 (8:4), shortly after they found Captain America in suspended animation, and Cap is BTS on their sub. The OMITTA 1 places this circa November, YEAR 3.

Page 8:2-9:3. Flashback. Garner grows paranoid as he researches a conspiracy involving government manipulation of superhumans. Ben Urich overhears an argument between JJ Jameson and Garner about the supposed conspiracy, and Garner mentions Elias Starr (Egghead), Bruce Banner (Hulk), Thaddeus Ross, and Henry Pym (Ant-Man). Garner later goes undercover for "weeks at a time" before finally disappearing.
NOTES: Placement uncertain, sometime after Page 8:1, but before he disappeared during YEAR 8. Jameson and Urich are shown to currently be with the Daily Bugle. Page 8:4 depicts numerous photographs, including those of Captain America, Daredevil, Charles Xavier (with two other men), Phineas Horton and the original Human Torch in a stasis tube, Elias Starr (Egghead), a bandaged man, a man with glasses and others.

Page 9:4-9:5. Urich finishes talking to Ewing.

Page 10:1-11:1. That night, Ewing meets a man in a trenchcoat ("Trickster God"), the former contact of Garner, who tells him about the group Control and its founders, who manipulate the super hero community.

Page 11:2. Flashback. Image of General Cecil B. Slinkard.
NOTES: First appeared in INV 4. He is "a celebrated cape hater".

Page 11:3. Flashback. Image of General Thaddeus E. "Thunderbolt" Ross.
NOTES: First appeared in H 1. Father of Betty Ross and later father-in-law to Bruce Banner.

Page 11:4. Flashback. Image of General Lewis Haywerth at a function.
NOTES: First appeared in DD 232. He is later a member of the Commission of Superhuman Activities.

Page 11:5. Flashback. Image of Howard Stark and Bolivar Trask at a function.
NOTES: Stark first appeared in IM 28 and is the father of Iron Man. Trask first appeared in UX 14 and created the Sentinels.

Page 11:6. Flashback. Image of Colonel (later General) Edward Harrison.
NOTES: First appeared in JIM 87. Associate of Dr. Donald Blake and many of his operations included Thor.

Page 11:7. Flashback. Image of the six men are together as Control, with an unidentified seventh man in the shadow in the background.
NOTES: These men were "rising to power in the cold dawn of the post-war decade" (the 1950s) and the "nuclear age". Three of them were known to be actually active during WWII. Ross was active during H2 291-FB, Slinkard during INV 4, and Stark helped created the first atomic bomb (Manhattan Project) from IM 257. Also note that Professor X's parents were also implied to have worked on the first atomic bomb in UX 1.

Page 12:1. Flashback. The rampage of the Brute That Walks (Howard Avery).
NOTES: During the events of JIM 65.

Page 13:1. Flashback. Fin Fang Foom chasing Chan Liuchow on horseback.
NOTES: During the events of ST 89, between ST 89 (8:2) and ST 89 (8:3).

Page 12:2. Flashback. The battle between Zzutak and a second monster created by Frank Johnson.
NOTES: During the events of ST 88.

Page 13:2. Flashback. The rampage of Gigantus.
NOTES: During the events of JIM 63.

Page 13:3. Flashback. Reed Richards defeats Gormuu with an energy weapon.
NOTES: During events of FF 271-FB.

Page 12:3, 13:4. Flashback. Image of Monster Island (with trademark volcano with a monster face in the background), with numerous monsters. "Trickster God" implies that the government covered up the various monster attacks and placed many of the monsters on Monster Island.
NOTES: Harrison notes the numerous alien contacts in "the last three decades". Monster Island probably appears between M/U 7 and FF 1. Among the monsters seen are Tricephalous (from FF 1) and Giganto (from FF 1), among others I cannot identify (Enda identified Neolithic as one, but I am unfamiliar with this creature).

Page 14:1. Flashback. Scientist Reed Richards in a lab shaking hands with Harrison, his military liaison. Reed received a lot of funding for his program, including military. "Trickster God" states that Control was responsible for funding numerous scientists that led to the creation of the Marvels.
NOTES: Sometime before FF 1-FB.

Page 14:2. Flashback. Slinkard funds the research of Henry Pym.
NOTES: Sometime before TTA 27-FB.

Page 14:3. Flashback. Slinkard also funds Elias Starr (Egghead).
NOTES: Sometime before TTA 38.

Page 14:4. Flashback. Haywerth funded Trask's Sentinel project.
NOTES: Sometime before UX -1. As both Haywerth and Agent Gyrich both later work for the Commission on Superhuman Activities, and Gyrich was the one who approached Trask for government funding of the Sentinels in UX -1, there may be a connection to the Sentinel funding and the Commission.

Page 14:5. Flashback. Ross working with Bruce Banner and other scientists during test of gamma bomb.
NOTES: Sometime before H 1.

Page 14:6. Flashback. Slinkard brought Otto Octavius into the staff at the New York State Atomic Research Center.
NOTES: Sometime before ASM 3.

Page 15-16. The "Trickster God" talks to Ewing, then departs.
NOTES: The man in the trenchcoat refers to himself as possibly being a "Trickster God" (possibly Loki). the "Lord of Lies" (possibly Mephisto), a government whistle blower or a disgruntled employee. Ewing also refers to him later as "Trickster God".

Page 17-19. After walking "for hours", Ewing returns home. He meets with his girlfriend Monique, and sees a mysterious man in the shadows. His apartment is blown up, killing his girlfriend Monique, and he flees into the night.

DAY TWO
Page 20. Ewing goes to Penn Station and leaves for Santa Fe, unknowingly followed by a Garner LMD.

Page 21-22. Ewing arrives "nine hours later" in Punios Verde, New Mexico, investigating the bank deposit box, but he is tasered by the Garner LMD.
NOTES: The Hulk had been through Punios Verde during his "endless journey", Which issue of H2 is uncertain.

Page 23. Ewing meets the Garner LMD (thinking it to be the real Garner) and they drive off in a van.

Page 24:1-24:3. Flashback. Young Matt Murdock is exposed to radioactive waste after pushing an old man from the path of a truck.
NOTES: These events recount DD 1-FB.

Page 24:4-24:5. Flashback. Garner investigates Matt Murdock's accident, but is turned away from his hospital room by the nursing staff, specially brought in that afternoon. Garner suspects Control interference.
NOTES: Jack Murdock is at his son's bedside. These events occur between the panels in DD 1-FB.

Page 25:1-26:2. The Garner LMD brings Ewing to his base, a cavern once used by the Hulk, and later used as Control's operations center. The Garner LMD introduces Ewing to General (formerly Colonel) Edward Harrison.
NOTES: The Hulk probably hid out in this cave in New Mexico in ASM 14. Also seen in the cave are a bathtub shaped Fantasticar, an Avengers' Quinjet, and one of Captain America's early diamond-shaped shields.

Page 26:3. Flashback. Harrison pulls government funding for the launch of Reed Richards' Pocket Rocket.
NOTES: Shortly before FF 1-FB.

Page 26:4-27:1. Flashback. Reed Richards, Sue Storm, Johnny Storm and Ben Grimm sneak onto the base and launch into space. Control has sabotaged their cosmic ray shielding and placed a device onboard to focus and amplify cosmic rays. The crew crashes and mutates, becoming the Fantastic Four.
NOTES: During FF 1-FB. Control was acting behind the scenes.

Page 27:2-30:1. Harrison identifies Garner as an Life Model Decoy (standard SHIELD issue) and shoots him. Harrison and Ewing flee in a flying car named "Smart Stan" when SHIELD arrives in the Helicarrier.


CONSPIRACY #2
"Book Two: Print the Legend"
February 1998
31 pages

Synopsis:
DAY TWO
Page 1:1-6:3. During the day, Ewing and Harrison flee from the Helicarrier in "Smart Stan", an intelligent car that can fly and is stealth capable.
NOTES: Stan's stealthware was "from a Skrull vessel that went down near White Sands in '47". This is probably a reference to the Roswell UFO landing in 1947, probably either the Skrull vessel of the 21st Observation Corps from M/:LG 4-FB (which brought Effigy and Chimera to Earth), or the two Skrull vessels that brought the Prime Skrull and his pursuer to Earth in BWULF 2-FB, all three vessels crashing on Earth in 1947.

Page 6:4-7:5. At night and after "another half hour", they arrive at Sanctuary, another secret base that was once used by Thanos. Ewing finds a ballistic slug in Stan.
NOTES: Thanos' Sanctuary base is from A 252.

Page 8:1-10:3. In Sanctuary, Harrison gives Ewing a cigar and tells him he wants him to expose Control.
NOTES: Harrison smokes cigars, he mentions that "Ross got me onto 'em" and "Castro used to send him some every Christmas". A possible connection to H3 19, where General Ryker (Ross' commanding officer) claimed he covered up the Kennedy assassination after Castro hired two Corsican mercenaries to kill JFK. Harrison also states they that they were once "holed up for the weekend at the Aspen retreat, deciding whether to give the SHIELD job to Fury or Glenn Talbot". This implies that Control may actually be the Executive Council, the mysterious founders of SHIELD.

Page 10:4. Flashback. Footage of Gormuu battling aircraft and rampaging through a city.
NOTES: This occurs during FF 271-FB.

Page 11:1-3. Harrison tells Ewing that it was Control that kept the Gormuu affair from the public.

Page 11:4. Flashback. Footage of the posing Invaders (Captain America, Bucky, Namor, Human Torch, Toro).

Page 11:5. Flashback. Footage of Namor battling a tank and soldiers (they appear to be Nazis).
NOTES: Place uncertain.

Page 12:1-2. Harrison tells Ewing Control was formed to manipulate and control the superhuman populace.

Page 12:3. Flashback. Footage of Fantastic Four running down street.
NOTES: Placement uncertain, Reed and Sue are in blue jumpsuits without the '4' on the chest, Ben is in his familiar rocky form.

Page 12:4. Flashback. Footage of Reed Richards working on a machine after the Gormuu incident. He worked under General Ferguson as liaison to the Rocket Group.
NOTES: Ferguson was seen in FF 271-FB.

Page 13:1-4. Harrison shows Ewing a copy of a document written by Reed Richards a week after the Gormuu incident for the government, called "Appropriate Responses to the Fantastic". He proposes a "think tank of top scientists, and ad hoc advisory council that could be called in to supervise crisis situations".
NOTES: This seems very similar to the Illuminati that Reed helped form from A5 7.

Page 13:5. Flashback. Footage of the founders of Control (Harrison, Haywerth, Ross, Slinkard, Stark, Trask) with their faces markered out.

Page 13:6-14:2. Harrison claims Control funded the research that led to the creation of numerous heroes.

Page 14:3. Flashback. Footage of the gamma bomb. Harrison reveals that Control influenced the superhuman community, financing dozens of scientific minds and funding technologies. He mentions Pym (Ant-Man), Banner (Hulk), Richards (Mr. Fantastic), Stark (Iron Man), Octavius (Dr. Octopus), Trask (inventor of the Sentinels), Myron MacLain (creator of Adamantium), Calvin Zabo (Mister Hyde), Theodore Sallis (Man-Thing), and Santini (Mad Thinker, who used the alias Dr. Jos Santini). Harrison notes their research gave them "the inside track on Pym particles, Stark microprocessors, adamantium, unstable molecules... and the gamma bomb".
NOTES: The gamma bomb footage occurs sometime before its detonation in H 1.

Page 14:4-15:5. Ewing argues that Harrison manipulated Reed Richards and sabotaged his ship to create the Fantastic Four. Harrison then claims Control was responsible for Banner becoming the Hulk by locking him out of the bunker during the gamma bomb test, and the funding of Henry Pym and Stark Industries led to the origins of Ant-Man and Iron Man, all three who helped form the Avengers. He also states they dealt for a time with "a guy called Xavier" (Professor X), whose theories on mutants helped Trask develop the Sentinels, which in turn led to Project Wideawake. They also allowed "unsupervised radiology experiments... near the campus at Empire State University", where a third of the students were abnormally irradiated, which may have been responsible for "the proliferation of capes in the Big Apple" (probably including Spider-Man).

Page 15:6. Flashback. An image of a spider.
NOTES: Probably the spider that bit Peter Parker in AAF 15, and that Carl King later ate to become Thousand (TWSM 1)

Page 16: Flashback. Footage of Hulk battling US Army. Harrison claims they allowed the Hulk to roam free so the military would always have an excuse for expenditures in weapons development.
NOTES: Placement uncertain. Hulk is green with purple pants. Harrison notes that "in five years, he became the single greatest expenditure subject in military history"; as H 1 occurs in April, YEAR 2, this means the Hulk achieved that distinction in YEAR 7.

Page 17:1-2. Harrison states Control had a black budget and gathered massive amount of information, primarily from the files of groups such as the FF, Avengers and Alpha Flight, and had set up administrative staff at various bases to process all the information. However the founders of Control soon became compromised, and they eventually lost control of the organization, with much of their funding financing super criminals.

Page 17:3. Flashback. Footage of the Wizard.

Page 17:4. Flashback. Footage of the Mad Thinker.

Page 17:5. Flashback. Footage of Ultron.

Page 17:6. Flashback. Footage of the Dr. Octopus.

Page 18:1-4. Harrison no longer knows who is in charge of Control, with the original six founders either dead or out of the loop. Haywerth went to work for the Commission of Superhuman Activities. Slinkard secretly funded more elicit organizations like Roxxon Oil, Brand Corp, Stane International (owned by Obadiah Stane/Iron Monger), Osborn Chemicals (owned by Norman Osborn/Green Goblin), Drexel Cord, and subversive groups like the Maggia, Hydra and AIM.
NOTES: Haywerth was a member of the CSA in CA 331. Drexel Cord was a minor adversary of Iron Man in IM 2.

Page 18:5. Flashback. Footage of General Slinkard set ablaze and falling to his death from the World Trade Center. Harrison says it was ruled a suicide, but he suspects murder.
NOTES: The other founders of Control include Trask (died in UX 16), Stark (died in IM 287-FB), and Ross (still active in H3).

Page 19:1-21:2. As Ewing tries to compose himself in the washroom, Harrison threatens him with a gun, as SHIELD has arrived and he believes Ewing led them there. Ewing flees as harrison opens fire and the lights go out.

DAY THREE
Page 21:3-22:4. "Thirty minutes later", Ewing finds an escape hatch and leaves Sanctuary, and encounters a SHIELD Mandroid.
NOTES: New day as sun is rising.

Page 23:1-25:4. Ewing meets with Dum Dum Dugan and Agent Gyrich as SHIELD searches for Harrison. Dugan explains that Harrison is simply delusional and that Control does not exist, and that SHIELD has been after him since he escaped their Bakersfield facility. Ewing is reluctant to believe him, so Dugan shows him a photograph of Garner's body, one of sixteen known victims.
NOTES: Harrison went mad in "the last decade" (circa YEAR 8).

Page 25:5. Flashback. Photograph of Cliff Garner's dead body, stabbed to death by Harrison 98 times with the handle of a steel comb. Dum Dum said he was apparently murdered after meeting Harrison and scoffing at his story.
NOTES: He was murdered "eight years ago" (circa YEAR 10).

Page 26:1-2. Dugan and Gyrich arrange for Ewing to return to New York.
NOTES: Gyrich has in the past worked for the Commission of Superhuman Activities under Haywerth (CA 333) and met with Bolivar Trask regarding government funding for the Sentinels (UX -1-BTS).

Page 26:3-5. After being debriefed for "a further hour", Ewing is riding a limo to the airport to be returned to New York. He pulls out Harrison's cigar and remembers his reference to the "Aspen retreat".

DAY TEN 
Page 27:1-28:4. Back in New York, Ewing spends "a week" researching, finding out the Trask family owns a private ranch in Aspen called Nirvana. He encounters the "Trickster God" again.
NOTES: "A week" after Day Three.

Page 28:5. Flashback. Photograph of Bolivar Trask.
NOTES: Close up of same photograph seen in CONSPIRACY 1 (11:5).

Page 29:1-2. "Trickster God" asks Ewing to continue his investigation.

Page 29:3. Flashback. Photograph of Nirvana near the Whitelance River in Aspen.
NOTES: The wealthy Trask family also owned property in New York (UX 14), South America (X 115) and South Dakota (UX -1).

Page 29:4-31:6. Ewing decides to fly to Aspen to investigate Nirvana, and puts all his evidence in an envelope to be be opened upon his death. He decides to smoke Harrison's cigar, when a mysterious figure arrives at his home...
NOTES: The final fate of Ewing and the identity of the mysterious figure are unknown...

			*	*	*

Apr 08, 2008 7:42 pm 
By wolframbane

Col_Fury was nice enough to send me his analysis of how this series overlaps with INV 4.

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
I've had a chance to look through both books side-by-side, and here's how it breaks down: 

Invaders #4 (1-2)
Captain America, the Human Torch, & Toro enter a military air base. 

Conspiracy #1 (6:3)-FB
Cliff Garner is startled. 

Conspiracy #1 (6:4)-FB
Captain America, the Human Torch & Toro jump the fence, the Human Torch melts Cliffs rifle. 

Invaders #4 (3)
Cliff reacts to his rifle being melted, and the three heroes are chased by Gen. Slinkard. 

Conspiracy #1 (7:1)-FB
Gen. Slinkard yells at Captain America. 

Conspiracy #1 (7:2)-FB
Cliff thinks to himself. 

Invaders #4 (4-5)
Gen. Slinkard yells some more, the heroes evade the American troops, and Captain America approaches a plane. 

Conspiracy #1 (7:3)-FB
Captain America jumps into the cockpit, the Human Torch & Toro are right behind him. 

Invaders #4 (6:1-6:3)
Captain America starts the plane and begins take-off. 

Conspiracy #1 (7:4)-FB
Captain America flies off in the plane, the Human Torch & Toro follow. 

Conspiracy #1 (7:5)-FB
Cliff watches Gen. Slinkard yell at the escaping Captain America, Human Torch, & Toro. 

Invaders #4 (6:4-18:6)
Captain America, the Human Torch & Toro begin their trip to Bermuda. They rendezvous with Namor and save Churchill. 

Cliff Garner DOES appear in Invaders #4, he just hasnt been named until Conspiracy #1. 

Some placement suggestions: 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS

INV 4 (1-2) 
*Conspiracy 1 (6:4)-FB
INV 4 (3)
*Conspiracy 1 (7:1-7:2)-FB
INV 4 (4-5)
*Conspiracy 1 (7:3)-FB
INV 4 (6:1-6:3)
*Conspiracy 1 (7:4-7:5)-FB
INV 4 (6:4-18:6)


HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND

INV 4 (1-2)
*Conspiracy 1 (6:4)-FB
INV 4 (3)
*Conspiracy 1 (7:1-7:2)-FB-OP
INV 4 (4-5)
*Conspiracy 1 (7:3)-FB
INV 4 (6:1-6:3)
*Conspiracy 1 (7:4-7:5)-FB
INV 4 (6:4-18:6)


TORO/TOM RAYMOND

INV 4 (1-2)
*Conspiracy 6:4)-FB
INV 4 (3)
*Conspiracy 1 (7:1-7:2)-FB-OP
INV 4 (4-5)
*Conspiracy 1 (7:3)-FB
INV 4 (6:1-6:3)
*Conspiracy 1 (7:4-7:5)-FB
INV 4 (6:4-18:6)


SLINKARD, GEN. C. B.
INV 4 (1-3)
Conspiracy 1 (7:1-7:2)-FB
INV 4 (4-5)
Conspiracy 1 (7:3)-FB
INV 4 (6:1-6:3)
Conspiracy 1 (7:4-7:5)-FB

GARNER, CLIFF
INV 4 (1-2)
Conspiracy 1 (6:3-6:4)-FB
INV 4 (3)
Conspiracy 1 (7:1-7:2)-FB
INV 4 (4-5)
Conspiracy 1 (7:3)-FB
INV 4 (6:1-6:3)
Conspiracy 1 (7:4-7:5)-FB


Hope that helps!
<<<

			*	*	*

Apr 08, 2008 11:37 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks for the analysis, wolframbane! 

It's lucky that I recently overhauled Dr. Octopus' early chronology, so I can suggest this straight away: 

DOCTOR OCTOPUS/OTTO GUNTHER OCTAVIUS 
...
PPTSS2 9 (7)-FB
ASMU 3 (6:3-6:6)-FB
*Conspiracy 1-FB
ASMU 18 (7:3-7:5)-FB
SM/DO: OR 1 (2:2)-FB
...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 10, 2008 2:05 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
Harrison also states they that they were once "holed up for the weekend at the Aspen retreat, deciding whether to give the SHIELD job to Fury or Glenn Talbot". This implies that Control may actually be the Executive Council, the mysterious founders of SHIELD.
<<<

I really liked that bit. We know from various places(Strange Tales 135, Fury 1, Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin 6) that Tony Stark recommended Fury for the position, but Conspiracy reveals that not everyone agreed with him right away.(which makes sense, Stoner was appointed director before Fury was. Not that he worked out very well) It would seem that Control conceded to the then 'public' face of Project SHIELD, or they just realized that Fury would make a better director than Talbot would. Either way, fun!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 11, 2008 12:51 am 
By wolframbane

Have there been any other appearances of the Executive Council? I know they also appeared in M/:LG 10, considering Fury for project SHIELD.

If Tony Stark recommended Fury, I think that his word may have carried a lot of weight, if his father was one of the Executive Council (Howard Stark WAS a member of Control. He was also, totally unrelated of course, a member of the Hellfire Club (the social club, not the evil Inner Circle), and worked on the Manhattan Project. Guy was busy.

			*	*	*

Apr 11, 2008 2:54 am 
By wolframbane

Here are some of my placement suggestions based of some of your analyses Col_Fury.

*EWING, MARK
CONSPIRACY 1
CONSPIRACY 2

GARNER, CLIFF
INV 4 (1-2)
CONSPIRACY 1 (6:3-6:4)-FB
INV 4 (3)
CONSPIRACY 1 (7:1-7:2)-FB
INV 4 (4-5)
CONSPIRACY 1 (7:3)-FB
INV 4 (6:1-6:3)
CONSPIRACY 1 (7:4-7:5)-FB
*CONSPIRACY 1 (5:3)-FB
*CONSPIRACY 1 (24:4-24:5)-FB ~ DD 1-FB-BTS
*CONSPIRACY 1 (8:1)-FB ~ A 4 (8:3-9:4)-BTS
*CONSPIRACY 1 (8:2-9:3)-FB
*CONSPIRACY 2 (25:5)-FB

*GARNER, CLIFF [LMD]
CONSPIRACY 1

*HARRISON, GENERAL EDWARD
CONSPIRACY 1 (11:6-7)-FB
CONSPIRACY 2 (13:5)-FB
CONSPIRACY 1 (14:1)-FB
FF 271-FB-BTS ~ CONSPIRACY 1 (13:3)-FB-BTS
CONSPIRACY 1 (26:3)-FB
JIM 87
IM:IA 2
CONSPIRACY 1
CONSPIRACY 2

SLINKARD, GENERAL CECIL B.
INV 4 (1-3)
CONSPIRACY 1 (7:1-7:2)-FB
INV 4 (4-5)
CONSPIRACY 1 (7:3)-FB
INV 4 (6:1-6:3)
*CONSPIRACY 1 (7:4-7:5)-FB
*CONSPIRACY 1 (11:2)-FB
*CONSPIRACY 1 (11:7)-FB
*CONSPIRACY 2 (13:5)-FB
*CONSPIRACY 1 (14:2-14:3)-FB
*CONSPIRACY 1 (14:6)-FB
*CONSPIRACY 2 (18:5)-FB

"TRICKSTER GOD"
CONSPIRACY 1
CONSPIRACY 2

TRASK, DR. BOLIVAR
*UX 58 (18:4)-FB
*UX -1
*CONSPIRACY 1 (11:5)-FB
*CONSPIRACY 1 (11:7)-FB
*CONSPIRACY 2 (13:5)-FB
*UX 57 (14:3-14:4)-FB
*CONSPIRACY 1 (14:4)-FB
*{UX 14} ~ MARVELS 2 (34:5-35:5)
UX 15
UX 16
UX 57 (15:2)-FB

TRASK, LAWRENCE "LARRY" *UX 58 (18:4)-FB
UX 58 (18:4)-FB
*UX -1
*UX 57 (14:3-14:4)-FB
UX 57 (15:2)-FB
...

NOTE: I have reordered some of the events of Bolivar Trask's life. He joined Control (CONSPIRACY 1 (11:5)-FB, 1 (11:7)-FB, 2 (13:5)-FB) after the Gormuu incident, just a few years before FF 1 (YEAR 1). When Larry discovered his powers (UX 58 (18:4)-FB) he was a young boy, but was college age before he left by YEAR 4, so UX 58 (18:4)-FB likely occurs a few years before CONSPIRACY 1 (11:5)-FB, 1 (11:7)-FB and 2 (13:5)-FB. Also, they got Master Mold working and then Larry left for college in UX 57 (14:3-14:4)-FB, but UX -1 still has Larry living with Bolivar and Master Mold was not yet completed, so I am moving UX -1 before UX 57 (14:3-14:4)-FB. As Trask was approached by Gyrich for government funding after UX -1, I placed Haywerth giving govt funding in CONSPIRACY 1 (14:4)-FB after this, and UX -1 also likely occurs before Trask joined Control. I also elaborated on the crossover of UX 14 and MARVELS 2. I have also adjusted Larry Trask's chronology to match the changes I made to Bolivar's.

			*	*	*

Apr 12, 2008 3:35 pm 
By Enda80

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=4298

Not sure how this affects chronology, but in the FF/X-Men series, there was an at least alleged diary of Reed Richards claiming that he engineered the creation of the FF on purpose after examining his crew's genetic structure to see that they might achieve benevolent mutation. That may support the canonicity of some events of Conspiracy. 

Other than that, didn't New Warriors reference Conspiracy recently?

			*	*	*

Apr 12, 2008 5:12 pm 
By jephyork
Director

The fact that you wrote the word "alleged" means that you know the miniseries revealed the diary to have been fabricated by Dr. Doom...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 12, 2008 7:43 pm 
By Enda80

I did not see the end of the limited series, so I did not know.

Other texts supporting the overarching conspiracy include MK Spider-Man#9 (Osborn part of a conspiracy to initiate diversions for the metahumans), Osborn's recent A-Z Update entry (which references the MK#9 conspiracy), Namor's recent entry (which notes that the Viking was part of the MK#9 conspiracy), and Fury#1 (Roxxon involved with Hydra).

			*	*	*

Apr 17, 2008 7:59 pm 
By Enda80

Justin Hammer was also shown instigating or funding many criminals, so the corporate conspiracy angle has some roots.

			*	*	*

Apr 17, 2008 10:12 pm 
By wolframbane

And in the most recent New Warriors #7, there is reference to the "Gardner Files" and evens of CONSPIRACY 1-2.

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Subject: Wild Angels

Apr 27, 2008 11:59 am 
By Frederic Krier

Marvel Top 6: Wild Angels (Marvel Italia)
1996

Perdute nel Cyberspazio (Lost in Cyberspace)

W: Nick Vince, A: Pino Rinaldi

Chapter 1: Un destino crudele (A cruel destiny).

Pg. 1-5: 1996. Dark Angel interrupts an experiment in Mys-TECH's Sigma Alpha Base, involving sub-atomic particles. As a result of this experiment, conducted by a Professor Livingstone (thats what DA calls him anyway), a goat-headed and winged extradimensional being with telepathic powers materializes. DA gives Livingstone ten minutes to evacuate the base, before it is destroyed as a result of the experiment. She leaves the base and takes the telepath with her.
Pg. 6-22: 24 years later (2020, Earth-8410). After a training session in Cyberspace, Nikki Doyle investigates a potentially lethal and therefore illegal virtual reality game. She first gets attacked by a Werewolf, and then taken captive by a group of players in a sword & sorcery setting. The group is attacked by skeletons, who resemble the extradimensional telepath from 1996. Nikki manages to free herself and blast away the skeletons. She follows the players into a medieval castle, where they are attacked by another goat-headed being. After Nikki takes out the winged creature, the tower of the castle suddenly explodes. In Earth-8410 reality, the building in which the game takes place, is blown up as well. Detective Trout and Liddel, who monitored Nikki, lose all contact to the virtual reality, and rush to the tower to rescue Nikki and the players. While other bodies of players are burned, Nikki's and a few other players bodies remains intact. Liddel however doesn't manage to re-enter the VR game world, and believes Nikki to be dead.

Chapter 2: Un regno perduto (A lost reign)

Pg. 1-2: Scotland, 1996. Dark Angel takes the extra-dimensional alien to her base. The alien introduces himself as Donal Ban, Prince of Guildern, and begins to tell his story.
Pg. 3-8, p2: FB. After the assassination of the king of Guildern, his advisor Mendes swears vengeance and proceeds to kill the brothers of Feren, the human nursemaid of Donal and his brother Tristum, as the presumed assassins. However, Feren reveals that Mendes himself staged the assassination of the king in order to seize the throne. She advises the two young brothers to flee, which they are forced to do as Mendes' troops storm the room. Tristum appears to be killed, but Donal finds himself transported to another reality at that same moment.
Pg. 8, p3-5: DA offers to help Donal to return to his native dimension. She is afraid that the transfer has caused a space/time warp that crosses over into multiple realities.
Pg. 9-11: New York, 2020. Liddel and Trout realize that Nikki and the other players aren't dead, but in a deep coma.
Pg. 12-22: Back in the VR, which now is obviously identical to Donal Ban's homeworld, Nikki and the other players are confronted by Tristum, who believes them to be agents of Mendes. After a brief fight, they manage however to convince him that this is not the case. The reality in which they're in seemingly becomes unstable, as walls suddenly disappear and the royal castle appears on a mountain top. They decide to climb up to the castle, but are attacked by Mendes' troops. One of the players is killed, Nikki and the rest are taken captive.

Chapter 3: In altri mondi (In other worlds)

Pg. 1-8, p3: DA and Donal arrive in Guildern. Meanwhile, Mendes interrogates Tristum and his other captives and kills another one of the players.
Pg. 8, p4 - pg. 13: Back on Earth-8410, Trout and Liddel find that two of the players have died under mysterious circumstances. A salvage squad proceeds to evacuate the remaining players, but already the first evacuation fails, as a policeman and a still unconscious player are struck by an energy bolt and fall to their deaths.
Pg. 14-22: In Guildern, the player that was killed on Earth-8410 simply disappears. Mendes releases some bees as a means to torture his captives, and leaves. At the same time, DA and Donal fight their way into the castle and free Feren. They find Donal, Nikki and the others as they are attacked by the bees. Using her powers, DA frees the captives. Nikki and DA swiftly defeat Mendes' men. As Nikki introduces herself to DA, they realize how fragile the borders between different space/time-continua has become. Mendes, who watches the scene from afar, is intrigued: could there be more than one world to conquer?

Chapter 4: Nelle fauci del nemico (In the jaws of the enemy)

Pg. 1-6: While having dinner with Tristum and Donal, DA, Nikki and the two remaining players are once again attacked by troops loyal to Mendes; they manage to defeat them rather easily. Mendes, who still watches them from afar, loses his temper and kills his wife Isis.
Pg. 7-9: Back in New York, 2020, Liddel and Trout still try to evacuate Nikki and the two players, but are knocked out by another explosion. They are rescued by a helicopter just before the building entirely collapses.
Pg. 10-16: Mendes somehow manages to make a five-headed, giant monster appear from nowhere, which kills his concubine Imacolata. While Nikki and the players stay behind, DA confronts the monster with Tristum and Donal. Donal seemingly gets killed by the creature. Back in the castle, Nikki and the others are stopped by Mendes, who kills the player Maklin, and captures Stella (a Red Sonja-lookalike). Immediately afterwards, Liddel materializes for a few seconds, baffling Nikki.
Pg. 17-18: Liddel and Trout wake up in a hospital; Liddel realizes that Nikki is still somewhere in the VR net, since he saw her in a dream.
Pg. 19-21: DA telepathically finds out that the monster is not an enemy, but was forced by Mendes to attack them. Tristum is accepted as king by the soldiers after the monster is pacified. As the defeated Mendes threatens to slash Stella's throat, he is stabbed in the back by Nikki. DA, Nikki and Stella return to to their respective realities.
Pg. 22: Nikki and Stella wake up on Earth-8410, and are welcomed by Liddel.


Apart from a few unnamed scientists from Mys-TECH and their research objects, only two 616 characters appear here: Dark Angel and the Mys-TECH operative Prof. Livingstone.

Placement:
DARK ANGEL 
...
DG 4
GENE 1 
MTOPI 6

PROF. LIVINGSTONE

MTOPI 6

In Earth-8410 continuity, this supposedly takes place after the last published issue of Wild Thing (#7) and the as yet unpublished Red Mist 2020 crossover.
The identities of the VR players are never revealed, names such as "Stella" refer to their avatar.

			*	*	*

Apr 27, 2008 12:46 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thank you, sir. You're awesome! 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Subject: Spider-Man Family v2 8

Apr 26, 2008 1:49 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Spider-Man Family v2 8
June, 2008

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Iron Man(Tony Stark), Jim Rhodes(War Machine), Arsenal Robots

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22
Two step brothers hack the internet to find cool games and unwittingly activate Howard Starks Arsenal Robot. Meanwhile, Tony chats with Jim Rhodes while he builds a new suit of armor.(basically Hulkbuster armor you know, really big armor) Elsewhere, Peter parker leads a class at Empire State University when Arsenal attacks. He changes into Spider-Man and fights the robot. Tony hears about it and changes into Iron Man, and goes to help Spider-Man out. An army of Arsenal Robots arrive so Iron Man changes into his new armor and together they defeat the robots. Iron Man & Spider-Man track the signal back to the step brothers and give them a stern talking to. 

References: 
Iron Man is wearing his modular armor here, placing this sometime between Iron Man 290 & 318. 

Peter is at Empire State University. 

Iron Man says that he has dealt with an earlier version of Arsenal once before, placing this after Iron Man 114 & Avengers Annual 9, and before Avengers: the Crossing. The Arsenal Robot did appear in Hulk 282, and even though Iron Man was present, the Hulk dealt with the robot that time. 

Spider-Man Family v2 8/2

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Iceman(Bobby Drake), Thing(Ben Grimm), Gwen Stacey, Bobbys date

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg10
Pete tries to make reservations at a new restaurant in town, but theres only one table left and its first come first serve. He runs into Bobby Drake on the street, who also wants to go to the new restaurant; the race is on! Booby ices up and grabs his date while Spider-Man tries to swing across town, but Bobby ices his hands. Pete catches the train to pick up Gwen, and the two pairs arrive at the same time to discover theyve been beaten by the Thing. 

References: 
Its Gwens birthday. 

Dialogue and a footnote tells us its been like FOREVER since Marvel Team-Up #4.(volume 1, the issue with Morbius and the X-Men) 

Spider-Man Family v2 8/3
Reprints Venom: Lethal Protector #2. 

Spider-Man Family v2 8/4
Reprints Spider-Man: Death & Destiny #2. 

Spider-Man Family v2 8/5
Reprints some Spider-Man J. 

Some placement suggestions: 

IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK

IC 6
*SMF2 8
A:TO 1


SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER

M/TU 11
*SMF2 8/2
ASM 119

IC 6
*SMF2 8
ASM 381


WAR MACHINE/JAMES R. "JIM" "RHODEY" RHODES

N 41
*SMF2 8
A:TO 1


ICEMAN/ROBERT "BOBBY" DRAKE

A 111
*SMF2 8/2
CA 173-FB


THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM

FF 133
*SMF2 8/2
LCHFH 9


STACY, GWEN

ASM 118
*SMF2 8/2
MARVELS 4 (21 - 28)


-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 26, 2008 12:34 pm 
By newtron

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Spider-Man Family v2 8/2

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Iceman(Bobby Drake), Thing(Ben Grimm), Gwen Stacey, Bobbys date

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg10
Pete tries to make reservations at a new restaurant in town, but theres only one table left and its first come first serve. He runs into Bobby Drake on the street, who also wants to go to the new restaurant; the race is on! Booby ices up and grabs his date while Spider-Man tries to swing across town, but Bobby ices his hands. Pete catches the train to pick up Gwen, and the two pairs arrive at the same time to discover theyve been beaten by the Thing. 

References: 
Its Gwens birthday. 

Dialogue and a footnote tells us its been like FOREVER since Marvel Team-Up #4.(volume 1, the issue with Morbius and the X-Men)
<<<

I just read this and I'm not sure it can be canon, as I think Peter and Bobby shouldn't know each other's secret identities at this point.

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Apr 26, 2008 5:42 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

That secret identity thing is definitely a problem.

If the story in SMF2 8/2 is canonical, I wonder if the "forever"-since-M/TU 4 statement could be facetious. This story occurs on Gwen's birthday. Gwen celebrated a birthday in ASM 87, which takes place in late October of Year 5. According to the Marvel Indexes, M/TU 4 occurs during the October of the next year (Year 6). Also according to the Indexes, ASM 141-142 take place during October of the year after that (Year 7). ASM 141-142 postdate Gwen's death in ASM 122. So from a calendar perspective, SM2 8/2 would need to take place shortly after M/TU 4 during that same month.

If that identity issue can be resolved and "forever" can be reinterpreted, I'd place Spidey here between ASM 107 and M/TU 5, Gwen here during the gap in ASM 107, Iceman here between M/TU 4 and A 111-FB, and Thing here between H2 153 and M/TU 6. I don't believe such a placement is a problem in the chronology of Peter and Gwen's roller-coaster relationship.Paul B.

			*	*	*

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
If the story in SMF2 8/2 is canonical, I wonder if the "forever"-since-M/TU 4 statement could be facetious. Sure, it could be. 
<<<

Pete did know Bobby's ID, it's Bobby knowing Pete's that's tricky. 

Peter didn't interact with the X-Men in M/TU 4, only Spider-Man did. However, the entire time the X-Men are in their street clothes screaming their regular names at each other.(Professor X scanned Spider-Man's mind in M/TU 4, so it would be safe to say HE knows that Pete is Spider-Man. I don't know how likely it is that he shared that information with the rest of the X-Men, though) Later in PPTSS 17 & 18, Peter still knows that Bobby is Iceman, backed up by a footnote referring to M/TU 4, but for some reason Warren doesn't remember that Spider-Man knows who all the X-Men are.  Later still in ASM 282 there's no mention that Spider-Man knows X-Factor's IDs, but he does recognize that they're all former X-Men. In both PPTSSM 18 & ASM 282, Spider-Man & Iceman end up chatting by themselves, away from everyone else. This would only suggest that Spider-Man feels more comfortable around Iceman compared to everyone else, but I don't think it necessarily lends itself to Bobby knowing who Pete is. 

In SMF2 8/2, we have a story with Bobby and Pete chatting about an adventure Iceman and Spider-Man had. Is there an issue later where it's shown Iceman discovering Spider-Man's identity? Meaning, is there an issue that prevents Bobby from knowing who Peter is here, before Gwen dies, because he discovers it later? Or are we assuming Iceman didn't know, because there has been no evidence until now that he did? 

I was going to toss in something about them being Amazing Friends, but I was too lazy to come up with something clever. 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 27, 2008 8:45 am 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
I was going to toss in something about them being Amazing Friends, but I was too lazy to come up with something clever. 
<<<

Actually, now you mention it, didn't Spider-Man Family: Amazing Friends (the first of the SMF one-shots, before they started numbering them) have Bobby not knowing Pete's ID in the lead (set in the early 90s) story?

			*	*	*

Apr 27, 2008 1:27 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

The issue opens with Spider-Man and Iceman catching up; Iceman's moved back to Westchester and Spider-Man got married. They don't call each other by their real names, but they're out in public every time we see them together. I don't see anything that says outright they don't know each other's IDs.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 27, 2008 1:35 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Hah -- in the time it took me to read this thread, go get the issue and check it out, Col_Fury beat me to the answer. Bah! 

I guess all I can add is that "Amazing Friends" was the *second* Spider-Man Family one-shot, not the first.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 27, 2008 2:23 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Well, since I've got you both rushing to your comics , here's the complete list AFAICS of issues which are in both Spidey & Iceman's listings without a qualification (page ranges, etc) to make it obvious they don't meet on-panel. Some are obvious cameos (e.g., A 3, COC 1, ORDER 5) or have been covered in this thread, and they won't necessarily meet on-panel in all of them, but I've not cut any for completeness:

A 3
ASM@ 1
UTSM 21
UTSM '97
FF 36
FF@ 3
M/H&L '96
UX 27
ST 156
UX 35
A 60
SUB-M 14
ASM 92
M/TU 4
M/TU 23
M/TE 13
PPTSS 17
PPTSS 18
COC 1
H2 279
SUB-M2 3
ASM 282
M/FAN 32
SMF:AF
WOSM 75
IW 1
IW 2
WM2 13
IW 3
MTW 2
PPTSS 197
PPTSS 198
PPTSS 199
IC 1 [SM only: ~ WOSM 104]
IC 2 [SM only: ~ WOSM 104 ~ DRSTR3 55]
WOSM 105 [SM only: ~ MK3 57]
IC 6
UX 337
ASM2 3
PPSM2 3 [& -FB]
ORDER 5

I can check some of these for myself to see if they make this story untenable or not, but not for a couple of days

			*	*	*

Apr 27, 2008 2:46 pm 
By metaldragon

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
If the story in SMF2 8/2 is canonical, I wonder if the "forever"-since-M/TU 4 statement could be facetious. Sure, it could be. 
<<<

Pete did know Bobby's ID, it's Bobby knowing Pete's that's tricky. 

Peter didn't interact with the X-Men in M/TU 4, only Spider-Man did. However, the entire time the X-Men are in their street clothes screaming their regular names at each other.(Professor X scanned Spider-Man's mind in M/TU 4, so it would be safe to say HE knows that Pete is Spider-Man. I don't know how likely it is that he shared that information with the rest of the X-Men, though) Later in PPTSS 17 & 18, Peter still knows that Bobby is Iceman, backed up by a footnote referring to M/TU 4, but for some reason Warren doesn't remember that Spider-Man knows who all the X-Men are.  Later still in ASM 282 there's no mention that Spider-Man knows X-Factor's IDs, but he does recognize that they're all former X-Men. In both PPTSSM 18 & ASM 282, Spider-Man & Iceman end up chatting by themselves, away from everyone else. This would only suggest that Spider-Man feels more comfortable around Iceman compared to everyone else, but I don't think it necessarily lends itself to Bobby knowing who Pete is. 

In SMF2 8/2, we have a story with Bobby and Pete chatting about an adventure Iceman and Spider-Man had. Is there an issue later where it's shown Iceman discovering Spider-Man's identity? Meaning, is there an issue that prevents Bobby from knowing who Peter is here, before Gwen dies, because he discovers it later? Or are we assuming Iceman didn't know, because there has been no evidence until now that he did? 

I was going to toss in something about them being Amazing Friends, but I was too lazy to come up with something clever. 
<<<

Well, there is ASM 92 where they teamed up but they didn't reveal their secret identities to each other there. All I can think of is if Parker had been taking pictures of Spider-Man in action with Iceman and Bobby read the Bugle article, it's possible he could put 1+1 together and connect Parker the photographer with Spider-Man that way.

Speaking of ASM 92... Bobby is shown dating a dark haired young woman in that issue. What does the date look like in this issue?

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Apr 27, 2008 3:22 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Speaking of ASM 92... Bobby is shown dating a dark haired young woman in that issue. What does the date look like in this issue?
<<<

She had short reddish-blonde hair. Bobby's a player!  

And that's a good point on ASM 92.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 27, 2008 3:30 pm 
By newtron

some of their appearances:

A 3 - no interaction
ASM@ 1 - no interaction

UTSM 21 - first meeting? clearly don't know each other

UTSM '97 - no interaction
FF 36 - no interaction
FF@ 3 - no interaction
M/H&L '96 - no interaction

UX 27 - Only refer to each other by hero names, though they are in public. To support metaldragon's theory, though, Iceman specifically wonders why Spidey was taking pictures of some hoods he'd captured.

ST 156 - no interaction

UX 35 - Fairly private setting, only call each other by hero names. Iceman clearly doesn't know Spidey well or trust him.

A 60 - I can't check
SUB-M 14 - no interaction

ASM 92 - In public. Only refer to each other by hero names. Iceman doesn't recognize Gwen, or that she has any relation to Spider-Man. They don't really know each other well.

M/TU 4 - Only call each other by hero names. Professor X scans Spidey's mind and presumably learns his identity. It's possible that Xavier shared the identity, and it's also possible that Spidey was unmasked while sick. Both somewhat unlikely in my opinion.

M/TU 23 - no interactionthe spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Apr 27, 2008 4:52 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

A 60 is the wedding of Wasp & Yellowjacket. No interaction. 

M/TE 13 - can't check. 

PPTSS 17
PPTSS 18 - covered above. 

COC 1 - can't check, but I'm pretty sure it's safe to say it's a crowd shot. 

H2 279 - Hulk gets the key to the city and everyone tells him he's just super. No interaction. 

SUB-M2 3 - can't check

ASM 282 - covered above

M/FAN 32 - can't check

SMF:AF - covered above

WOSM 75 - public interaction only, but they're on friendly terms. 

IW 1
IW 2
WM2 13
IW 3 - Infinity War crowd shots. 

MTW 2 - I don't have this, but given the sheer amount of characters appearing in this issue, I'd have to say 'crowd shot, no interaction'. I could be wrong, though. 

PPTSS 197
PPTSS 198
PPTSS 199 - Spider-Man and the X-Men team up. Spider-Man obviously knows who Jean is... but she wasn't really keeping her identity secret at the point anyway. All public interaction. 

IC 1 [SM only: ~ WOSM 104]
IC 2 [SM only: ~ WOSM 104 ~ DRSTR3 55]
WOSM 105 [SM only: ~ MK3 57]
IC 6 - Infinity Crusade crowd shots. 

UX 337 - Pete takes a picture of Graydon Creed. That's it.(no interaction) 

ASM2 3
PPSM2 3 [& -FB] - Public interaction. They know each other and are friendly, but don't use real names. 

ORDER 5 - Crowd shot, no interaction. 

It looks like all there's left to check is Marvel Treasury Edition 13, Sub-Mariner v2 3, & Marvel Fanfare 32. And so far, I'm not seeing any evidence that Bobby doesn't know who Peter is, I'm only seeing no evidence that he does.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 27, 2008 6:12 pm 
By metaldragon

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
M/TE 13 - can't check.
<<<

The story segment Spider-Man is in is separate from and unrelated to the story segment Iceman is in.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Subject: Spider-Man/Daredevil #1

Apr 27, 2008 6:33 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Spider-Man/Daredevil #1
October, 2002

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Ben Urich

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg23
Spider-Man and Daredevil separately search for a kidnapped girl while Ben Urich investigates. Spider-Man saves her to Daredevils slight dismay.(because Spider-Man always gets the good press, and he was hoping for some for a change) The next day, Urich grins at the mornings paper; Spider-Man has gotten good press again. 

Some placement suggestions, based on Paul Bs Calendar: 

DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK

PPSM2 41
*SM/DD 1
M/K2 1


SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER

PPSM2 41
DEF2 9
DEF2 10
SM:SC
PPSM2 42
PPSM2 43
*SM/DD 1
VENOM 11
A3 51-FB
DD2 34


URICH, BEN

ASM2 24
*SM/DD 1
DD2 27


-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Subject: Daredevil/Spider-Man #4

Apr 27, 2008 7:45 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Daredevil/Spider-Man #4
April, 2001

Appearances: 
Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Foggy Nelson, Black Widow(Natasha), Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Human Torch(Johnny), Thing, Stiltman(Wilbur Day), Copperhead(Lawrence Chesney), Gladiator III, Owl(Leland Owlsley), Kingpin(Wilson Fisk)

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg23
Continued directly from last issue. Daredevil & Spider-Man stop Copperhead and his plans. Meanwhile, the Fantastic Four monitor the situation, Foggy & Black Widow chat, and the Owl asks for forgiveness. The next day, Nelson & Murdock inform Wilson Fisk that they cant represent him and that night Daredevil & Spider-Man make up. 

Some placement suggestions based on where the first three issues already are: 

BLACK WIDOW II/NATASHA ROMANOVA

DD/SM 3
*DD/SM 4
BW 1


COPPERHEAD/LAWRENCE CHESNEY

DD/SM 3
*DD/SM 4

DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK

DD/SM 3
*DD/SM 4
BW 1


GLADIATOR III/

DD/SM 3
*DD/SM 4

KINGPIN/WILSON FISK

DD/SM 3
*DD/SM 4
PPSM2 7-FB


NELSON, FRANKLIN P. "FOGGY"

DD/SM 3
*DD/SM 4
A3 26


OWL/LELAND OWLSLEY

DD/SM 3
*DD/SM 4
DD: T 1


SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER

DD/SM 3
*DD/SM 4
XM 51


STILT-MAN/WILBUR DAY

DD/SM 3
*DD/SM 4
TW 13
 

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS

FF3 21
*DD/SM 4
FF3 22


INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUE STORM RICHARDS
...
FF3 21
*DD/SM 4
FF3 22


HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM

FF3 21
*DD/SM 4
FF3 22


THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM

FF3 21
BP3 6
*DD/SM 4
FF3 22


-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Subject: Spider-Man: Hobgoblin Lives 1-3

Apr 28, 2008 12:20 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Spider-Man: Hobgoblin Lives #1
January, 1997

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Mary Jane Watson-Parker, Betty Brant-Leeds, Jacob Conover, J. Jonah Jameson, Marla Jameson, Hobgoblin V(Jason Philip Macendale), George Vandergill, Sen. Robert Martin, Donald Menken, Daniel Kingsley, Hobgoblin II(Roderick Kingsley), Jonas Harrow, Joe Robertson

Synopsis: 
Peter and Mary Jane chat about Jason Macendales upcoming Jury decision. Elsewhere, Betty wakes up from a dream. Meanwhile, Jacob Conover drinks his sorrows away. Elsewhere, Jonah and marla chat about the Hobgoblin. The next day, Jason is found guilty, and he blurts out to the press that Ned Leeds was the Hobgoblin before he was. Around town Sen. Martin, George Vandergill, Donald Menken, Donald and Roderick Kingsley, Dr. Jonas Harrow, Jonah, and Robbie Roberton react to the revelation. Later, the real Hobgoblin kills Macendale in his cell. 

References: 
This mini takes place along with issues of the regular series published at the time.(early 1997) Norman Osborn is back, Jacob Conover was recently fired, the clone mess is behind us, Peter & Mary Jane are living in Aunt Mays house, etc. 

There are A LOT of FlashBacks to previous issues through this mini, but theyre all reminder FlashBacks to catch everyone up to speed on the Hobgoblin plot. Nothing new, really. There are also a couple of revelations about the Hobgoblin, but the chronologies already reflect those, so Im only going to be focusing on the current stuff. 

Spider-Man: Hobgoblin Lives #2
February, 1997

Appearances: 
Hobgoblin II(Roderick Kingsley), Daniel Kingsley, Spider-Man(Peter Parker), J. Jonah Jameson, Joe Robertson, Ben Urich, Betty Brant-Leeds, Charlie Snow, Donald Menken, George Vandergill, Jacob Conover, Flash Thompson, Sen. Robert Martin, Mary Jane Watson-Parker, Liz Allan-Osborn, Normie Osborn

Synopsis: 
The Kingsleys chat. Meanwhile at the Daily Bugle, Jonah sends everyone out to figure out this Ned Leeds mess. Kingsley is visiting with Menken when Vandergill calls up to threaten him. Shortly afterwards, the Hobgoblin kills Vandergill. Elsewhere, Peter, Mary Jane, Betty, and Flash go over their notes. Later, Peter meets up with Urich, Mary Jane meets up with Kingsley, and Flash meets up with Liz Osborn. After everyone reacts to the Hobgoblins attack on Vandergill, Conover assaults Betty in the street. Just afterwards, the Hobgoblin attacks Spider-Man. 

Spider-Man: Hobgoblin Lives #3
April, 1997

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Betty Brant-Leeds, Hobgoblin II(Roderick Kingsley), Lt. Marcus Stone, Daniel Kingsley, Jacob Conover, Mary Jane Watson-Parker

Synopsis: 
The Hobgoblin kidnaps Betty. After chatting with Lt. Stone, Spider-Man goes to look for her. After the Hobgoblin explains a few things to Betty, Spider-Man arrives and attacks. The Hobgoblin is defeated as Betty discovers that Roderick Kingsley is the Hobgoblin. He is later seen in prison. Betty and Conover make up, and Peter and Mary Jane chat about how much theyve been through. 

Some placement suggestions: 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER

ASM 420
*SM: HL 1
*SM: HL 2
*SM: HL 3
S-M 76


HARROW, DR. JONAS

PPTSS 236
*SM: HL 1
TSHLN

HOBGOBLIN II/RODERICK KINGSLEY

ASMU 14
*SM: HL 1
*SM: HL 2
*SM: HL 3
PPTSS 259


HOBGOBLIN V/JASON PHILIP MACENDALE

S-M 69
*SM: HL 1

JAMESON, J. JONAH

ASM 420-BTS
*SM: HL 1
*SM: HL 2
S-M 76


JAMESON, MARLA MADISON

SM:REVELATIONS
*SM: HL 1
PPTSS 242


KINGSLEY, DANIEL

WOSM 29
*SM: HL 1
*SM: HL 2
*SM: HL 3
PPTSS 260


LEEDS, BETTY BRANT

SM:REVELATIONS
*SM: HL 1
*SM: HL 2
*SM: HL 3
S-M 76


MARTIN, SEN. ROBERT "BOB"
PPTSS 39-FB
{PPTSS 38}
PPTSS 39
ASM 249
ASM 250
SM: HL 1
SM: HL 2

MENKEN, DONALD L.

SENSM 10
ASM '97-FB
ASM '97-FB
*SM: HL 1
*SM: HL 2
ASM '97


OSBORN, LIZ ALLAN

SM:REVELATIONS
*SM: HL 2
PPTSS 242


OSBORN, NORMIE

S-M 75
*SM: HL 2
DD 362
PPTSS 250


ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE"

ASM 419
*SM: HL 1
*SM: HL 2
PUN3 16


ROSE IV/JACOB "JAKE" CONOVER

ASM 420
*SM: HL 1
*SM: HL 2
*SM: HL 3
ASM 421/2


SNOW, CHARLIE

ASM 415-BTS ~ GG 12-BTS
*SM: HL 2
ASM '97

STONE, LT. MARCUS

JIM 505
*SM: HL 3
IM:BB 2
FF3 35


THOMPSON, EUGENE "FLASH"

SM:REVELATIONS
*SM: HL 2
S-M 76


URICH, BEN

ASM 420
*SM: HL 2
PUN3 16


VANDERGILL, GEORGE 
*ASM 249
*ASM 250
ASMU 14
*SM: HL 1
*SM: HL 2

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE

ASM 420
*SM: HL 1
*SM: HL 2
*SM: HL 3
S-M 76


-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Subject: Avengers: Celestial Quest #3

Apr 29, 2008 5:27 pm 
By Somebody
Director

AVENGERS: CELESTIAL QUEST #3
Writers: Stainless Steve Englehart
Art: Jose Santamara

Cast:
(all last in A:CQ 2, next in A:CQ 4 unless otherwise noted)

Avengers:
VISION II/"VICTOR SHADE" [SYNTHESOID]
MANTIS/? BRANDT [HUMAN/PLANT HYBRID]
SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF [MUTANT]
SILVERCLAW/LA GARRA ARGENTADO/MARIA DE GUADALUPE SANTIAGO [HUMAN/AZTEC GOD HYBRID]
THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" [ASGARDIAN]
HAYWIRE/

Space Pirates:
REPTYL
SYN (referred to in dialogue as "KID SYN")
RAPTRA

Cotati:
SWORDSMAN II/COTATI (last listed for A 395 - although I think that may be a Space Phantom - next in A:CQ 5, currently unlisted for whole series...)
QUOI/SEQUOIA (listed for A:CQ 2, but I can't see him there outside a -FB)

Other:
MENTOR/ALARS [ETERNAL] (last listed in TB 47)
THANOS? (currently listed as BTS for all other issues, no Thanos, clone or otherwise, is actively listed for A:CQ)
DEATH

Summary:
The morning after the night before for Vision & Mantis, he leaves fully-dressed for a chat with the Scarlet Witch while she stays in bed. Silverclaw eavedrops on the conversation, while "Space Pirates" attack the ship. They head out and thrash them.

The retreating pirates are then waylaid by Thanos.

Hours later, "they make planetfall on Tamal, the homeworld of the Cotati". There, the Cotati Swordsman greets them, and we get flashbacks to the Cotati's origin (mostly repeated from A 134, no identifiable characters)O, before "Q"/Quoi/Sequoia/Mantis' kid shows up as a petulant teenager who storms off before long.

On Titan, Mentor automatically assumes Quoi's star will draw Thanos "and so [he] must act".

The pirates, elsewhere, are boarded by Thanos. Once most of the crew are dead, Reptyl agrees to serve Thanos in return for a power-up, which Thanos gives him by killing "Kid Syn". Raptra doesn't agree, and sneaks off.

Back on Tamal, Vision makes an idiot of himself by interrupting Mantis & the Cotati Swordsman, and Death looks on.

Notes:
Thanos was ambiguously retconned by Jim Starlin into a clone in Thanos: Infinity Abyss. I presume that's stuck since the MCP lists him only as BTS for this series (although, the idea that a clone fools Death has always bugged me). There's no listing for the Thanos of this series in the MCP.

The Cotati Swordsman is treated as if the Crossing never happened. I don't have Avengers Forever to hand to check, but I suspect he was retconned into a Space Phantom there, which - if anyone can verify that - should move A 392 & A 395 out of his listing. [EDIT: Checked, and he was. See Swordsman II/Cotati topic in MU] In addition, he appears in A:CQ 5, which he's not listed for. 

Quoi is listed for A:CQ 2. I can't see him at all there, except for a couple of FBs which I suspect are repeats from Englehart's Silver Surfer issues.

Listings:
Avengers:
HAYWIRE/ [HUMAN]
[...]
A:CQ 2
*A:CQ 3
A:CQ 4
[...]

MANTIS/? BRANDT [HUMAN/PLANT HYBRID] (add species)
[...]
A:CQ 2
*A:CQ 3
A:CQ 4
[...]

SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF [MUTANT] (add species)
[...]
A:CQ 2
*A:CQ 3
A:CQ 4
[...]

SILVERCLAW/LA GARRA ARGENTADO/MARIA DE GUADALUPE SANTIAGO [HUMAN/AZTEC GOD HYBRID] (add species)
[...]
A:CQ 2
*A:CQ 3
A:CQ 4
[...]

THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" [ASGARDIAN]
[...]
A:CQ 2
*A:CQ 3
A:CQ 4
[...]

VISION II/"VICTOR SHADE" [SYNTHESOID] (add alias, species)
[...]
A:CQ 2
*A:CQ 3
A:CQ 4
[...]


REPTYL
[...]
A:CQ 2
*A:CQ 3
A:CQ 4
[...]

SYN/KID SYN
[...]
A:CQ 2
*A:CQ 3
[end of listing]

RAPTRA
[...]
A:CQ 2
*A:CQ 3
A:CQ 4
[...]

Cotati:
SWORDSMAN II/COTATI [COTATI]
A 130
A 131
A 132
A 133
A 134
A 135
GSA 4
WCA2 39-FB
SS3 4-FB
**A 392? (move to SWORDSMAN IV/"COTATI" [SPACE PHANTOM]?)
**A 395? (move to SWORDSMAN IV/"COTATI" [SPACE PHANTOM]?)
*A:CQ 3
*A:CQ 5

QUOI/SEQUOIA (listed for A:CQ 2, but I can't see him there outside a -FB)
[...]
**A:CQ 2 (remove?)
*A:CQ 3
A:CQ 4
[...]

Other:
MENTOR/ALARS [ETERNAL]
[...]
TB 47
*A:CQ 3
A:CQ 4
[...]

THANOS
[...]
A:CQ 2-BTS
*A:CQ 3-BTS
A:CQ 4-BTS
[...]

THANOS CLONE?
*A:CQ 1
*A:CQ 2
*A:CQ 3
*A:CQ 4
*A:CQ 5
*A:CQ 6
*A:CQ 7
*A:CQ 8

DEATH
[...]
A:CQ 2
*A:CQ 3
A:CQ 4
[...]

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Subject: Avengers Annual 2001, story 2

Apr 29, 2008 7:17 pm 
By Somebody
Director

AVENGERS ANNUAL 2001, story 2
Writers: Kurt Busiek
Art: Ian Churchill

"Jarvis the Butler: House Cleaning"

Cast:
JARVIS, EDWIN
FREEMAN, DUANE JEROME-BTS
GARSEN, GLORIA "GLORY"-BTS

Summary:
Jarvis gets a series of e-mails from Duane Freeman. The Avengers are away, and it forces him to call to delay a date with "Glory" since the Avengers are away and someone needs to deal with them (we don't hear her side of the call).

The first e-mail is about aftereffects of the Crossing & Onslaught, asking why isn't the Wasp an insect and why isn't Iron Man in jail for murder.

From page 2 onwards, there's a series of flashback panels. The first two and a half pages' worth don't appear to be new material, and I'll list them in summary here by page:panel, and not in the character listing below.
2:2) A generic pose of Crossing-Iron Man, no helmet, yelling
2:3) Iron Man kills Rita deMara
2:4) Iron Man's just killed Marilla
2:5) Iron Man's just killed Amanda Chaney
2:6) Iron Man's about to zap the (human) Wasp
3:1) Insect-Wasp bursts out of her coccoon
3:2) Captain America declares "It's all over, Avengers. He's gone" over Iron Man's dead body; with Wasp in the background
3:3) Teen Tony says "Hey Jarv -- what it is" to Jarvis while using something that looks like a cross between a paintbrush and a Sonic Screwdriver on a bit of glass.
3:4) Iron Boy whacks Holocaust
4:1) Iron Boy & Insect-Wasp fly into Onslaught, a purple cape fluttering behind them. This is wrong - Wasp was beside Giant-Man, and Iron Boy was clutching Doctor Doom (I presume that's meant to he his cape, miscoloured) tightly as he flew in separately.

Now, we hit definite-new-material flashbacks:

FB: pg4:2-4:3
App: Iron Man

Iron Man falls back into the MU at the end of the events of Heroes Reborn: The Return #4 (we don't see him land there, just Sue Richards & Franklin). A few minutes later, still in HReborn armour, but without helmet or gloves, he looks in the water at his reflection and freaks out at remembering "three lives".

FB: pg4:4
App: Iron Man, Captain America, Giant-Man, Wasp

This appears to be on the day of the events of Avengers v3 #1, slightly before we pick up with them there. There's no Thor, Giant-Man's in his Ant-Manesque costume, Wasp's in the costume she wore in the first part of A3 1, and Iron Man's in the variant Chen/Ross (HReturn) armour, with the glowy bits back to front, that appeared only in the first few issues of A3 & TB 11-12.

Cap tries to calm Tony down, but Tony's still a bit freaked out.

FB: pg4:5
App: Iron Man, Happy Hogan

Iron Man checks his own grave, and finds the body vapourised and traces of energy also present in his system.

----

In present-day, Jarvis types that they can only presume Franklin dunnit, and that "the Iron Man who killed those women while under someone else's control, and the Iron Man who replaced him...are both dead and gone...and that neither Tony Stark nor the present Iron Man would rest if there was any continuing question of guilt"

Cue another FB...

----

FB: pg5:5-6:4 (6:L)
App: Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Hawkeye, Black Widow (?), Wasp (?)

Iron Man's still in the variant Chen/Ross armour
Thor's clean-shaven
Cap has his shield
Hawkeye's in his normal costume
On the two women, I'm fairly sure about both, but you can't see much of their costumes to confirm - Wasp has the same hairstyle as the first few A3 issues, and the other is a woman with long, straight, bright-red hair and (from what little can be seen) a skintight black costume which fits the Widow best by far.
Iron Man walks off swearing to do something about being mind-controlled

Problem: Thor kept his beard until after Cap lost his shield (and after Cap gave up on the shield IM made for him). My gut says place it before CA3 2, since "Thor shaved, regrew a beard, shaved again and kept shaving thereafter", while awkward, is less so than the alternative. With that in mind, and the fact that Iron Man has the tech in TB 12 he's swearing to create here, I suggest placing 4:5 & 5:5-6:4 between A3 3 & TB 11.

Basically, Iron Man convened a court-martial, they say he was being mind-controlled and it doesn't count, and "the authorities" are going along with what they say.

---

After that, Jarvis tells Freeman that Cap's shield has no adamantium in it, with montage of seeming-no-new-material panels:

7:3) Generic figure of Cap
7:4) Myron Maclain pours the metal for Cap's shield into the mould
7:5) Cap's shield, now painted, is held by a moustached army guy with Maclain behind him.
8:1) Thor cracks the cylinder of adamantium that would later become Ultron-6's body with his hammer with a "SKAANNG"

And, finally, he tells him that Falcon isn't a mutant. Then gets another e-mail we don't see, and moans he'll never get to dinner.

Notes (framing sequence):
The "Glory" Jarvis phones to delay a date with is, from my interwebz searching, Gloria Garsen, a character created by Walt Simonson for Avengers #298 - but she doesn't have a MCP listing. Can anyone check the Appendix's appearances for her so we can create one? I don't have the issues on that page to check for myself, and thus am not going to give a listing for her below.

Duane Freeman dies during the Kang War, and this appears to predate it. So I suggest between A3 40 & 41 (USA2 3 and A:CQ 1 for Jarvis) for the framing sequence.

Listings

So, assuming none of the panels that I think are repeats are actually new material...

JARVIS, EDWIN
[...]
A3 39
USA2 3
*A@ 2001/2
A:CQ 1
A3 41
[...]

FREEMAN, DUANE JEROME
[...]
A3 38
*A@ 2001/2-BTS
(end of listing)

IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK
[...]
HR:R 4
*A@ 2001/2-FB (4:2-4:3)
H2 462
IM3 1
IM3 2-FB
IM3 2
IM3 3
*A@ 2001/2-FB (4:4)
A3 1
A3 2
A3 3
*A@ 2001/2-FB (4:5)
*A@ 2001/2-FB (5:5-6:4)
TB 11
[...]

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN "STEVE" ROGERS/"STEVEN GRANT ROGERS" (naming correction)
[...]
TB 10-FB
*A@ 2001/2-FB (4:4)
A3 1
A3 2
A3 3
*A@ 2001/2-FB (5:5-6:4)
TB 11
[...]

WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM
[...]
TB 10-FB
*A@ 2001/2-FB (4:4)
A3 1
A3 2
A3 3
*A@ 2001/2-FB (5:5-6:4)
TB 11
[...]

GIANT-MAN/HANK PYM
[...]
TB 10-BTS
*A@ 2001/2-FB (4:4)
A3 1
[...]

THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" [ASGARDIAN] (naming correction)
[...]
A3 3
*A@ 2001/2-FB (5:5-6:4)
TB 11
[...]

HAWKEYE/CLINT BARTON
[...]
A3 3
*A@ 2001/2-FB (5:5-6:4)
TB 11
[...]

HOGAN, HAROLD J. "HAPPY"
[...]
IM3 3
*A@ 2001/2-FB (4:5)
IM3 4
[...]

BLACK WIDOW II/NATALIA ALIANOVNA ROMANOVA/"NATASHA ROMANOFF" (naming correction)
[...]
A3 3
*A@ 2001/2-FB (5:5-6:4)
CA3 3
[...]

			*	*	*

Apr 30, 2008 10:27 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
I don't have the issues on that page to check for myself, and thus am not going to give a listing for her below.
<<<

I do, and here we go: 

GARSEN, GLORY
A 298
A 325
A@ '99-FB
A@ 2001/2-BTS


Also: 

Somebody wrote:
>>>
7:4) Myron Maclain pours the metal for Cap's shield into the mouldYou're right, this IS NOT new information. However this: Somebody wrote:
7:5) Cap's shield, now painted, is held by a moustached army guy with Maclain behind him.
<<<

This IS new information.(in CA 303-FB we only see the shield in it's discus shape, this is the first time we see it painted) So: 

MACLAIN, DR. MYRON 
CA 303-FB
*A@ 2001/2-FB
W2 -1
...

That's all I got. Thanks Somebody!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

