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1. X-Men: First Class v2 #6-8/9 & 11
2. Hostess ads
3. On Death's Head II
4. Skrull Royalty
5. Nekra
6. Minor She-Hulk Villains update
7. Peter Parker and MJ in IF 8
8. God, Jesus and biblical characters in MU
9. Swordsman II/Cotati
10. Justice or J2?
11. NO2 3.....or.....understanding FB
12. SM/XF:SG
13. Giant-Size Incredible Hulk #1
14. Placement for Adolf Hitler
15. Mighty Avengers #14
16. Ajak / Arex
17. Avengers/Invaders 1

	Issue Analysis Forum
18. Wolverine: First Class #2
19. the TWELVE 1
20. ALIAS 9 
21. Brotherhood 5
22. NOVA (french serie) #25-26 (Silver Surfer story)
23. Elektra: Root of Evil 1-4
24. Call For Analyses: Missing Books
25. Power Pack Holiday Special 1
26. Fantastic Force 18
27. Mighty Avengers 12
28. Marvel Fanfare 34-37
29. Daredevil: Blood of the Tarantula 1
30. Logan 1-3
31. Mighty Avengers 13
32. Amazing Spider-Girl #13-18
33. Amazing Spider-Girl #19
34. Amazing Spider-Man Magazine #1
35. Wolverine v3 62-65
36. Wolverine: Amazing Immortal Man & Other Bloody Tales 1
37. Franklin Richards: Not-So-Secret Invasion 1
38. Ghost Rider v6 20-23
39. May call for analyses
40. Wolverine: Origins 21-25
41. the TWELVE 3
42. the TWELVE 4
43. Daring Mystery Comics #6
44. RED RAVEN COMICS #1/7 (Eternal Brain)
45. USA COMICS #7/3 (Marvel Boy)
46. MYSTIC COMICS Vol. 1 #3-4 (Hercules)





Thread 1

Subject: X-Men: First Class v2 #6-8/9 & 11

Nov 29, 2007 4:19 pm 
By Somebody
Director

In case you're wondering why I list the title as such:

Jeff Parker, http://www.parkerspace.com/2007/10/29/halloween-x/, wrote:
>>>
The next issue [#6] begins what is technically a two part main story, but is essentially a three parter that has the teen mutants run into the weirdness of the Man-Thing by issue 8.
<<<


Although he also says:

Jeff Parker, http://www.parkerspace.com/2007/11/07/back-to-savannah/, wrote:
>>>
I dont usually mention layouts I get from artists because that stage happens so far in advance of print time, but I just saw most of Eric Nguyens breakdowns for his X-Men First Class issue 8 and now Im even more excited about that story. Its the one featuring the Man-Thing, and its going to be GREAT. In general the whole book starts getting the drama stepped up as of issue 6 (and Roger Cruz just went the hell off in his two part story, as youll see) and Im generally giddy about the whole four issue arc.
<<<

I think the extension to #9 might be via the backup(s?), since that's the Black Widow/Jean/Wanda story, and there's another Jean/Wanda story in the back of #6 (well, it should be. Screwed-up printing puts it in the middle...)

ANYway. Preview of #6: http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/ ... i?id=12460

Later, there's lots of Sentinels in the story. BIG-style Sentinels at that... (oh, and talking Cerebro, but not the Big Round Room. And, chronology aside, the best Cyclops scene in yoinks.) And a reference to Wanda & Pietro being on Long Island, which may be in reference to their status quo in the backup.

The backup follows from the #3 backup, also referencing X:FC 7, and has Jean & Wanda vs. the Mole Man and a "Mysterio Escapes!" newspaper headline, referenced in dialogue; and a reference to the X-Men's trip to Monster Island.

			*	*	*

Nov 30, 2007 3:27 am 
By metaldragon

Somebody wrote:
>>>
I think the extension to #9 might be via the backup(s?), since that's the Black Widow/Jean/Wanda story, and there's another Jean/Wanda story in the back of #6 (well, it should be. Screwed-up printing puts it in the middle...)

Later, there's lots of Sentinels in the story. BIG-style Sentinels at that... (oh, and talking Cerebro, but not the Big Round Room. And, chronology aside, the best Cyclops scene in yoinks.) And a reference to Wanda & Pietro being on Long Island, which may be in reference to their status quo in the backup.

The backup follows from the #3 backup, also referencing X:FC 7, and has Jean & Wanda vs. the Mole Man and a "Mysterio Escapes!" newspaper headline, referenced in dialogue; and a reference to the X-Men's trip to Monster Island.
<<<

Yea, they did screw up the binding of X:FC2 6: the middle section (Professor X mentally scans comet, Jean & Wanda back-up story) should go at the beginning and end while the beginning and end bits with the Sentinels should be in the middle. Very weird. 

Since a Sentinel appears in X:FC 5 and they react like this is the first time they've encountered one since their original story in UX 14-16 I'd tentatively place this story after that and just before UX 40, at least until we see where this story arc is going and if there are more definate references to work from. 

Looks like the Marvel Girl and Scarlet Witch back-up squeezes in the spot before UX 14 (and before SW and Quicksliver join the Avengers.)

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Dec 09, 2007 10:00 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Trying to figure out here - is this the current way the stories are arranged? 

UX 2 
X:FC2 5 
X:FC2 5/2 
UX 3 
[...] 
UX 8 
X:FC 6 
UX 9 
[...] 
UX 13 
X:FC 7 
X:FC2 2 
X:FC2 3 
X:FC2 3/2 
X:FC2 6/2 
X:FC2 4 
X:FCS/5 
UX 14 

[...] 
UX 18 
X:FC 2 
X:FC 3 
UX 19 
[...] 
UX 21 
X:FC 1 
X:FC2 1 
X:FC 8 
UX 22 
[...] 
UX 39 
X:FC 5 
X:FC 4 
X:FCS/1 
X:FCS/3 
UX 40 

And something I'm especially wondering about that wasn't brought up in the X:FC2 4 thread - in X:FC 8, Xavier was alone "two weeks" earlier when he discovered the mutant in Africa he went flying after because the X-Men were "on break". 

In X:FC2 4, every single one of the X-Men go on a two week break (Cyclops kayaking with Havok, Jean to Switzerland with her parents, Angel to Maine, and Beast & Iceman [at Xavier's prompting] on a road trip)... except Xavier. We don't see them return - the issue ends with Bobby & Hank still away, and getting a phone call from Angel, worried about his car, and no mention of Cyke, Jean or X. 

Pieces seem to fit. 

(for own reference: 

X-Men: First Class 
X-Men: First Class canon? 
Placement of X-Men: First Class 
X-Men: First Class Special 1 
X-Men: First Class v2 #4 
X-Men First Class v2 #5)

			*	*	*

Dec 10, 2007 2:09 am 
By TheDeuce

thanks for the list there Somebody. it helped me update my x-men reading order.

			*	*	*

Dec 12, 2007 6:27 pm 
By Mikhail

Wasn't Man-Thing uncreated until 1971? Shortly before his crossover with Ka-Zar in Astonishing Tales, which established his origin firmly in 1970's Marvel as opposed to First Class's 1960's Marvel?

			*	*	*

Dec 15, 2007 3:25 pm 
By dimadick

"Shortly before his crossover with Ka-Zar in Astonishing Tales" 

1) In "Savage Tales" vol. 1 #1 (May, 1971), Ted Sallis completes his variant of the super-soldier serum. Only for his wife Ellen Brandt to betray him to AIM and pursue him with other operatives of the organization. He injects himself with the serum and the combinations of its effects and the mystical properties of the swamp turn him into Man-Thing. 

The tale is directly followed by the flashback portions of "Astonishing Tales" #12 (June, 1972). Which reveals that he was not a lone operative but part of the larger Project:Gladiator. Introducing his colleagues Dr. Wilma Calvin (head of the project), Dr. Paul Allen (an AIM agent), Dr. Roberta Morse (a SHIELD agent, her name later retconned to Barbara Morse for whatever reason), Dr. Wendell and a lab assistant just known as Jim. 

The flashback has Calvin and Morse searching for Sallis in the swamp. They ran into trouble with a mob of locals accusing them of creating a monster, AIM agents still after the serum and Man-Thing helping his old friends. Trying to communicate with them and realising he can not. Calvin is seriously wounded and falls into a coma by the end of the narration. 

The search in the swamp suggests that Sallis missing in action was still a very recent event. Man-Thing gets his introduction to a crowd and learns he can not speak. His condition is new even to him. 

The present portion of the issue has Morse bringing Ka-Zar. Calvin is in a coma for "several weeks". Enough time for the shared Plunder-Morse adventures since "Astonishing Tales" #6 (June, 1971). 

If the "First Class" crossover is accepted as canon, it could fit in the period between the "Astonishing Tales" flashback and the introduction of Morse to Ka-Zar. Pushing the "Savage Tales" origin further back in time, enough to account for several X-Men stories which preceeded it in publication time.

			*	*	*

Dec 16, 2007 5:21 pm 
By metaldragon

Sorry, first chance I had to sit down and double check your list... 

Has the placement for X:FCS/5 been moved to right before UX 14 to make Cyclops' line "I was afraid my attack upon Juggernaut had strained my powers beyond repair!" make sense again? I think we originally had it placed after the UX 18, X:FC 2 & 3 series of events to explain when Juggernaut might have escaped the mansion in order for them to re-capture him with the help of Dragon Man. 

X:FC2 4 cannot go before UX 14 because it makes Angel's line about vacations: our first one in years make no sense whatsoever. My placement: right after X:FC 2 & 3. This is simply a continuation of the vacation that began in X:FC 2. Which, of course is simply a continuation of the one that was interrupted in UX 14! 

Actually, since you mention the "break" the X-Men were on 2 weeks before the beginning of X:FC 8, it's possible it could go after X:FC2 4... Still, the main problem is with the fully functional Cerebro. I think this a toss up between the UX 21 & 22 placement and after X:FC 4 one because Xavier mentions in UX 22 that their last vacation (in UX 19) was interrupted by the Mimic (which makes it's current placement a bit awkward but explainable). I suppose the final word would have to be Jeff Parker's if someone asks him. lol! (Personally, I like the current placement, but that's just me.) 

My updated placement for X:FC2 1 is right before UX 19 which is the first time Marvel Girl is shown levitating in the Danger Room. Cyclops chastises her for practicing outside the Danger Room at the beginning of X:FC2 1. 

Otherwise looks pretty good. Did you need placements for the flashbacks? I notice you didn't list them.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Dec 16, 2007 5:58 pm 
By metaldragon

With those changes and flashbacks included, should look something like this: 

UX 2 
X:FC2 5 
X:FC2 5/2 
UX 3 
[...] 
UX 7
X:FC 1-FB
UX 7 
UX 8 
X:FC 6 
UX 9 
[...] 
UX 13 
X:FC 7-FB
XMF 3 
X:FC 7 
X:FC2 2 
X:FC2 3 
X:FC2 3/2-FB 
X:FC2 3/2 
X:FC2 6/2 
X:FCS/5 (new placement?) EDIT: doesn't work- Sentinel 
UX 14 
[...] 
UX 18 
X:FC 2 
X:FC 3 
X:FC2 4
X:FCS/5 (original placement)
X:FC2 1 
UX 19 
[...] 
UX 21 
X:FC 1 
X:FC 8-FB 
X:FC 8 
UX 22 
[...] 
UX 39 
X:FC 5 
X:FC 4 
X:FCS/1 
X:FCS/3 
UX 40

Last edited by metaldragon on Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:00 pm, edited 2 times in total. 

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Dec 16, 2007 6:46 pm 
By metaldragon

Just double checked the analysis of X-Men: First Class Special 1, there is a Sentinel in the Dragon Man story (or at least the head of one) so it MUST go after UX 18. The "new" placement cannot work.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Dec 29, 2007 10:42 am 
By metaldragon

I think I have the placement for X:FC2 6 & 7 now that both issues are out. It is set after UX 18 so Wanda and Pietro must be members of the Avengers at this point. I wouldn't place it too long after UX 18 because they mention the original Sentinal encounter as fairly recent but there had to be enough time for 100 Sentinels to be built. 

Jean mentions wishing she could still fly at the end of X:FC2 7 so I think it ties nicely with the opening pages of X:FC2 1. 

I think I might place these issues just before the Dragon Man story so the Sentinel head there could be from this batch of Sentinels. It's possible Juggernaut escaped the mansion when the Sentinels trashed it here instead of when Magneto did in UX 17-18 which solves the long delay problem of them taking vacations right after UX 18 before searching for Jugs. 

With the revised placements it looks something like: 

UX 18 
X:FC 2 
X:FC 3 
X:FC2 4 
X:FC2 6
X:FC2 7 
X:FCS/5 
X:FC2 1 
UX 19 

Does anyone know where Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch might fit in Avengers continuity here? I suppose they could have decided to keep the cabin as a retreat from being Avengers/the public spotlight.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Dec 29, 2007 2:42 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Remind me, what links Avengers & UX issues in this time period with respect to Wanda & Pietro. 

In return, I remind you about the "four issue arc" quote about X:FC2 #6-9 and the solicit for #9 which has Wanda deciding what way to go.

			*	*	*

Dec 29, 2007 3:04 pm 
By wolframbane

I believe that the appearances of Wanda and Pietro must be after the Stranger dissolved the Brotherhood and before they joined the Avengers.

			*	*	*

Dec 29, 2007 3:07 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Not what I asked - I'm asking what places the Av issues with respect to UX as far as W&P joining the Avs. To take it to extremes, what stops UX 1-(whatever Neal Adams issue that had W&P&Toad swap costumes with the X-Men) all being before Av 16 beyond "common sense"?

			*	*	*

Dec 29, 2007 3:56 pm 
By JD

For starters, the UX 43-45/A 53 crossover, which happened 15 issues or so before. 

But yeah, maybe we should reexamine this period to see exactly what leeway we have. 


[edit] Also, Pietro & Wanda are explicitly stated as already being Avengers in UX 27.

			*	*	*

Dec 30, 2007 12:36 am 
By metaldragon

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Remind me, what links Avengers & UX issues in this time period with respect to Wanda & Pietro.

In return, I remind you about the "four issue arc" quote about X:FC2 #6-9 and the solicit for #9 which has Wanda deciding what way to go.
<<<


UX 11- Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch quit the Brotherhood 

FF@3 
Marvels 2 

The X-Men appear along side the Avengers which include Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver as members there. Since Marvels 2 places the FF wedding on the morning of the Sentinel attack, all appearances of Pietro and Wanda pre-Avengers means pre-UX 14 as well. 

If something in the upcoming 2 issues contradicts that, the series may have just pushed itself out of continuity officially.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Dec 30, 2007 1:23 am 
By Somebody
Director

We'll see then, I suppose. Officially, it's a two-parter, a backup and two one-parters, and we might be able to break it up as such if, in particular, #9 doesn't refer to #6-7.

			*	*	*

Jan 14, 2008 12:43 am 
By metaldragon

Going back to Paul's wonderful notes: these are Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch's appearances from when they are chased by Magneto when he returned, joined the Avengers, and events leading up to the FF wedding where they appear alongside the X-Men next. Just to clear up that question. 

M/H&L 97 (17-18) 
A 16 ~ M/H&L 97 
A 17 
JIM 120 
A 18 
FF@ 3 ~ M/H&L 1 ~ MARVELS 2 (33) 

Since their appearance in X:FC2 6-7 has to take place between UX 18 (Mar '66) & 19 (Apr '66) is there a gap somewhere around A 26 (Mar '66) & 27 (Apr '66) where they might... relax in their cabin between bouts of Avenging and suddenly get attacked by Sentinels?

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Jan 14, 2008 8:08 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Metaldragon wrote: 
>>>
Since their appearance in X:FC2 6-7 has to take place between UX 18 (Mar '66) & 19 (Apr '66) is there a gap somewhere around A 26 (Mar '66) & 27 (Apr '66) where they might... relax in their cabin between bouts of Avenging and suddenly get attacked by Sentinels?
<<<

Publication dates don't always indicate synchronicity in the MU. One likely gap between UX 18 and 19 for Pietro and Wanda is between A 20 and 21. The problem is these stories in X:FC2 read like they're supposed to chronicle Wanda's transformation from "bad" to "good" before A 16. So far, I don't think this intention has been overt, but I get the sinking feeling that it will become so.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jan 14, 2008 10:14 pm 
By metaldragon

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Publication dates don't always indicate synchronicity in the MU. One likely gap between UX 18 and 19 for Pietro and Wanda is between A 20 and 21.
<<<

Understood, works for me.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
 The problem is these stories in X:FC2 read like they're supposed to chronicle Wanda's transformation from "bad" to "good" before A 16. So far, I don't think this intention has been overt, but I get the sinking feeling that it will become so.
<<<

Well, at least the back-up stories do. In this story, Wanda & Pietro just happen to be at their cabin. It noone talks about them being Avengers or not. Since it HAS to take place after UX 18 because of the Sentinels, the only way this story could be pre-Avengers for them is to contradict Marvels 2 and place the X-Men's appearance alongside them at the FF wedding after UX 18. Which would either bump Marvels 2 out of continuity or the X:FC series. If I remember correctly, I think that even before Marvels came out, the Index placed the wedding right before UX 14 anyway.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Jan 18, 2008 9:10 am 
By Somebody
Director

Preview for #8 is out - it's explicitly stapled to the aftermath of #6-7, and more generally after X:FC #2.: http://comicnewsi.com/article.php?catid ... emid=10993

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Jan 18, 2008 8:35 pm 
By metaldragon

What we know of X:FC2 8 so far from just these pages:
It continues directly on from X:FC2 7.
It comes after X:FC 2 (where they encountered the Lizard) which is good, we've got X:FC2 6 & 7 placed after that issue already.
It has Marvel Girl levitating, which places it after UX 14...

I guess we'll find out more next Wed!

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Jan 23, 2008 5:58 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Read the issue now, and all the placement stuff is in the preview. After that, it's mostly glimpses of various Bad alternate future stuff (which are at least in part futures of the present - Thor's in his current costume in one, which references X:FC 5 in a way which doesn't impact on when the FC team come from; and Phoenix is referring to "all her previous rebirths" in another)

And I'm convinced Jean flying is a screw-up by the fill-in artist whether or not it has any bearing on placement - #7 ended with Jean wishing she could still fly as the rocket went off, and Cyke sends Hank & Warren ahead at one point because they can move faster than him & Jean.

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Jan 23, 2008 11:24 pm 
By metaldragon

Actually, looking closer, Jean doesn't fly in this issue either. In the first bit she just hovers a foot or two over the swamp. This is in line with her short hops between UX 14 and 22. In the Thor bit, they're standing on a building when she lifts Man-Thing over to Ice Giant Bobby. Then in the next bit Angel is doing most of the work providing lift: "Can't-- hold you all--" as he's carrying Jean and reaching for Man-Thing, with Jean saying: "I'm trying to help, but I'm holding them too." 'Them' being Scott, Man-Thing and Bobby (on panel) and probably Hank (off panel) as well. As early as UX 2 she's been shown to be able to lift the combined mass of 6 teenage girls for short distances so her actions in this issue are not outside of her abilities at this time placement. Jean and Warren actually did a simpler version of this once before in UX 17 when they had to get over a wall of flame that would have singed Warren's wings if he flapped them so as he carried her, she helped keep them moving with her powers. That was just the two of them of course, but this stunt is still within the scope of her powers during this time.

I agree about the X:FC 5 reference. This is Thor from the future so he could reference X:FC 5 all he wants. lol! Bobby had met Thor on 3 earlier occasions (UX 9, FF 36, and FF@ 3) so his line "No, Thor, it's your old pal, Bobby! Don't--" still makes sense without having to move X:FC 5 before this issue.

Also, wasn't there a What If...? alternate time line where Beast looses his mind when he mutates in his Amazing Adventures story? This could be the same version of Hank.

Anyway, what I find more worrying, is Dr. Curt Conners with two arms here. I don't know much about him but I though he only had one arm in human form...!?

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Jan 24, 2008 2:30 am 
By dimadick

"Anyway, what I find more worrying, is Dr. Curt Conners with two arms here. I don't know much about him but I though he only had one arm in human form...!?"

What? This is not a minor detail for the character. According to his very first appearance in "Amazing Spider-Man" vol. 1 #6 (November, 1963), Curt lost his right arm while working as a military surgeon in an unspecified war. (At the time of publication both World War II and the Korean War fit the vague description). His study into reptiles started at than point. He was trying to find a way to duplicate their ability to regenerate limbs into human subjects. Starting with himself. That missing right arm made most of his original motivation.

			*	*	*

Jan 24, 2008 6:33 am 
By Somebody
Director

For Conners, two possibilities - (1) It's a screw-up by the fill-in artist who didn't bother to reference the character, ignore it 'cause it has no bearing on the plot, (2) He's been playing with the serum again, convinced he had it sorted this time, and proceeded to have a Lizard Attack off-panel during or shortly after this issue, and the X-Men had to deal with him all over again before they went back to the Mansion.

			*	*	*

Jan 24, 2008 11:40 am 
By metaldragon

A couple of other posibilities: (1) I suppose this could also be a result of the Nexus flaring up. (2) He does wave a test tube with steaming liquid about as well, so looks like he was either playing with his serum again or, if (1) is correct, taking tests on himself to check why he's got his arm back and not transforming. Or (3) if this is the onset of a "Lizard Attack", maybe Xavier helped him keep it in check with his telepathy. Thing is, it's not discussed, which is kinda weird. It's obviously not a prosthetic because the fingers appear to have independent movement between the 3 panels he appears in. Did he ever bother with a prosthetic at any point at all? Anyway, he's not shown in his cabin at the end when the X-Men are relaxing there so maybe he did have a Lizard attack after all and is off running around the swamp or he's still tinkering with his serum/tests off panel and his arm is gone again? Who knows. I suspect your first possibility is probably the actual reason. 

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Jan 26, 2008 6:20 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
For Conners, two possibilities - (1) It's a screw-up by the fill-in artist who didn't bother to reference the character, ignore it 'cause it has no bearing on the plot, (2) He's been playing with the serum again, convinced he had it sorted this time, and proceeded to have a Lizard Attack off-panel during or shortly after this issue, and the X-Men had to deal with him all over again before they went back to the Mansion.
<<<

Either of those works for me. 

"The Man-Thing hates FEAR." I loved that line. 

-Daron Jensen

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Feb 24, 2008 12:16 am 
By Somebody
Director

Preview for #9 is out. No real clues that weren't already in the solicit that I can see: http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/ ... i?id=13083

And, looking back at page 1 of this thread, I'm still not sure why things can't be arranged such that X:FC 8, which follows an off-panel-but-plot-critical two-week break for everyone but Xavier - who leaves for Africa during it and isn't there when they get back - can't directly follow X:FC2 4, where we follow Beast & Iceman as everyone except Xavier goes on a two-week break, and we don't see anyone get back and hear only Angel.

			*	*	*

Feb 24, 2008 1:07 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Preview for #9 is out.
<<<

Hrm. Black Widow working for SHIELD here isn't a problem, as long as she's recruited shortly after Hawkeye drops her off at the hospital in M/H&L '97, which would still be before the Scarlet Witch joins the Avengers. The problem is, Fury wasn't running SHIELD until after Avengers 16, according to A: EMH. I can think of a couple things that could make this work, but I'd like to read the entire issue first before nailing anything down. 

Off the top of my head: The first page occurs after Strange Tales 135, and the Flashback occurs before Avengers 16, and by extension before Strange Tales 135. That would make the 'current' segment a scene where Fury's getting to know his agents and recent SHIELD going-ons. That could work, depending on how the rest of the issue unfolds.

-Daron Jensen

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Feb 24, 2008 2:51 am 
By metaldragon

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Preview for #9 is out. No real clues that weren't already in the solicit that I can see: http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/ ... i?id=13083

And, looking back at page 1 of this thread, I'm still not sure why things can't be arranged such that X:FC 8, which follows an off-panel-but-plot-critical two-week break for everyone but Xavier - who leaves for Africa during it and isn't there when they get back - can't directly follow X:FC2 4, where we follow Beast & Iceman as everyone except Xavier goes on a two-week break, and we don't see anyone get back and hear only Angel.
<<<

You could place X:FC 8 after X:FC2 4 and include it as part of the vacation from X:FC 2-3 & X:FC2 4 but you still have the problem of a working Cerebro interface in Xavier's office that was destroyed in UX 18 and only finally replaced in UX 20. On second thought... I suppose one could argue that the room with the Cerebro laptop in X:FC 8 could have been the library/tv room from UX 20 instead of Xavier's office... That WOULD tidy up the vacation references... Hm...

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Feb 24, 2008 3:02 am 
By metaldragon

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
Preview for #9 is out.
<<<

Hrm. Black Widow working for SHIELD here isn't a problem, as long as she's recruited shortly after Hawkeye drops her off at the hospital in M/H&L '97, which would still be before the Scarlet Witch joins the Avengers. The problem is, Fury wasn't running SHIELD until after Avengers 16, according to A: EMH. I can think of a couple things that could make this work, but I'd like to read the entire issue first before nailing anything down. 

Off the top of my head: The first page occurs after Strange Tales 135, and the Flashback occurs before Avengers 16, and by extension before Strange Tales 135. That would make the 'current' segment a scene where Fury's getting to know his agents and recent SHIELD going-ons. That could work, depending on how the rest of the issue unfolds.
<<<


Erm... How does Fury know Scarlet Witch's father is a "bad guy" or even who her father is?!? She didn't know Magneto was her bio father until WAY later. Wow, he's got agents in Wundagore or something?

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Feb 24, 2008 3:20 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
How does Fury know Scarlet Witch's father is a "bad guy" or even who her father is?!? She didn't know Magneto was her bio father until WAY later.
<<<

Fury knows everything about everything. I'll quote from the recent What If...? Spider-Man vs. Wolverine: 

Nick Fury wrote:
>>>
Buddy, I'm Nick Fury. I already know.
<<<


metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Wow, he's got agents in Wundagore or something?
<<<

Nah. He just knows.  

That, and it's just the recap page. But still, this is Fury we're talking about here. The guy who figured out a Norse God had a secret identity, the guy who figured out who Iron Man was, the guy who figured out who Spider-Man was, the guy who figured out the Skrulls were invading...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Feb 24, 2008 12:59 pm 
By Enda80

http://darkmark6.tripod.com/man-thing_index.html
Savage Tales No. 1 
Shortly after this story, Man-Thing and Ka-Zar battle AIM in ASTONISHING TALES #12, 13. 
This story takes place sometime after May 1, 1971, as indicated in GIANT-SIZE MAN-THING #5.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/swabada.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rory#_ref-0 
There is one other clue that might impact as to whether Ted Sallis became the Man-Thing in the "1960's" or the "1970's" (I am aware of the sliding timescale). 

Rory had several more adventures, most of which were resolved by Man-Thing, whom he had never feared, making an appearance. He also guided Daredevil to Ted Sallis's old shack, which was being used by Gladiator and Death-Stalker.[1]

In the issue, Daredevil #113, he noted it was the site of several recent deaths. A footnote says that this is a reference to Tales of the Zombie #6, but as the cabin in that story was only a day's walk from New Orleans, Louisiana, it is clearly a reference to a two-part text story in Monsters Unleashed #8-9. All stories in question are Gerber's, perhaps implying that the story was published in a different place than originally intended. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/mastersonteddy.htm

Monsters Unleashed Magazine #8 Several Meaningless Deaths 1974/10 
Text story by Gerber concerning a writer who, trying to escape the violence of the city, runs away to the very shack that Ted Sallis lived in. He finds an injured young girl on his doorstep who is being chased by her sadistic father. The emotional energy flying around attracks Man-Thing 
http://www.lonely.geek.nz/mtwhatcomics.html

Anyway, this all seems to impact the chronology of Ka-Zar and the late lamented Mockingbird (Morse).

Incidentally, an interesting comparison to the Swamp Thing, whose timeline has also been tinkered with to retroactively set it earlier than the era of the comics he was first published in. The Swamp Thing's origin was less tied to pre-existing characters, so it was easier (Nathan Ellery and Arcane-who had nothing to do with the Swamp Thing's origin, Mr. Wes Craven- were created specifically for the Swampt thing series).

			*	*	*

Feb 24, 2008 5:53 pm 
By Enda80

In Astonishing Tales#12, Morse says Sallis disappeared a few weeks ago.

			*	*	*

Feb 27, 2008 10:02 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
Off the top of my head: The first page occurs after Strange Tales 135, and the Flashback occurs before Avengers 16, and by extension before Strange Tales 135. That would make the 'current' segment a scene where Fury's getting to know his agents and recent SHIELD going-ons. Scratch that. 

All of X: FC2 9 has to occur after Strange Tales 135 thanks to Fury & Dum Dum. 

X: FC2 9 has to occur before Avengers 16(well, most of it at least) thanks to the Scarlet Witch. 

A: EMH has a line of dialogue from Captain America that says Nick Fury is still with the CIA. Originally, I had suggested moving ST 135 to after A 16 to accommodate the reference, even though the Index had placed ST 135 before A 16.(well, A 15 actually) Now we have an appearance that needs Nick Fury to be with SHIELD before A 16. As X: FC2 9 seems to agree with the Index, Ill say we need to ignore my earlier suggestion to move ST 135 in Iron Mans chronology. If we need to rationalize Captain Americas comment, we can assume that Fury stayed with the CIA either for a transitional phase while he was starting with SHIELD, or him being with the CIA was his public cover, as SHIELD was a secret organization in the early days. 

Black Widow needs to appear here after her portion of Marvels Heroes & Legends 97. 

Dum Dums not a problem. He(and Gabe) appears in ST 137 already with SHIELD, we dont see his(or Gabes) recruitment. 

So, at least for the SHIELD folks, were looking at: 

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH

ST 135 (12:3 - 12:7)
*A: EMH 6-BTS
*X: FC2 9
ST 136
FF@ 3


DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM"

FURY 1-FB-BTS
*X: FC2 9
FF@ 3


BLACK WIDOW II/NATASHA ROMANOVA

A 16-FB
M/H&L '97
*X: FC2 9
A 29


Great issue!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Feb 28, 2008 1:48 pm 
By Somebody
Director

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Publication dates don't always indicate synchronicity in the MU. One likely gap between UX 18 and 19 for Pietro and Wanda is between A 20 and 21.
<<<

Understood, works for me.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
 The problem is these stories in X:FC2 read like they're supposed to chronicle Wanda's transformation from "bad" to "good" before A 16. So far, I don't think this intention has been overt, but I get the sinking feeling that it will become so.
<<<

Well, at least the back-up stories do. In this story, Wanda & Pietro just happen to be at their cabin. It noone talks about them being Avengers or not. Since it HAS to take place after UX 18 because of the Sentinels, the only way this story could be pre-Avengers for them is to contradict Marvels 2 and place the X-Men's appearance alongside them at the FF wedding after UX 18. Which would either bump Marvels 2 out of continuity or the X:FC series. If I remember correctly, I think that even before Marvels came out, the Index placed the wedding right before UX 14 anyway.
<<<

Well, I didn't see any references to #6-8 in #9. Looks like it should be fine (if perhaps slightly counter-intiuitive) to place #9 earlier.


metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
Preview for #9 is out. No real clues that weren't already in the solicit that I can see: http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/ ... i?id=13083

And, looking back at page 1 of this thread, I'm still not sure why things can't be arranged such that X:FC 8, which follows an off-panel-but-plot-critical two-week break for everyone but Xavier - who leaves for Africa during it and isn't there when they get back - can't directly follow X:FC2 4, where we follow Beast & Iceman as everyone except Xavier goes on a two-week break, and we don't see anyone get back and hear only Angel.
<<<

You could place X:FC 8 after X:FC2 4 and include it as part of the vacation from X:FC 2-3 & X:FC2 4 but you still have the problem of a working Cerebro interface in Xavier's office that was destroyed in UX 18 and only finally replaced in UX 20. On second thought... I suppose one could argue that the room with the Cerebro laptop in X:FC 8 could have been the library/tv room from UX 20 instead of Xavier's office... That WOULD tidy up the vacation references... Hm...
<<<

Well, it's a standard PC. We'd already decided the central Kirbytech core must have been functional at this point - they're making do by hacking in a PC in lieu of the more complicated interfaces they normally use.

			*	*	*

Feb 28, 2008 2:32 pm 
By wolframbane

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Erm... How does Fury know Scarlet Witch's father is a "bad guy" or even who her father is?!? She didn't know Magneto was her bio father until WAY later. Wow, he's got agents in Wundagore or something?
<<<

Another possibility is that they werent even talking about Magneto. Wanda has has two other 'fathers' as well. Whizzer didn't have much of a criminal record, beyond vagrancy. But Django Maximoff did go off the deep end after the death of his wife. Nothing overly major, but he did supply the magic wood used by the Brothers Grimm for their voodoo dolls, and possibly other quesionable acts

			*	*	*

Feb 29, 2008 6:09 am 
By dimadick

"But Django Maximoff did go off the deep end after the death of his wife. Nothing overly major, but he did supply the magic wood used by the Brothers Grimm for their voodoo dolls, and possibly other quesionable acts".

A this point in his history, Django was considered deceased by the twins. He had settled in Vladivostok and would only track his children again by news reports on the Avengers.

			*	*	*

Feb 29, 2008 8:42 am 
By Somebody
Director

Two points:

1) It's Nick Fury. He knows stuff 
2) More importantly, it's the recap page. Unless you want to suggest reasons why Gammaworld has an ad for people to come & visit (Warbound #3), I'd not bother trying to explain it.

			*	*	*

Mar 03, 2008 3:43 am 
By metaldragon

I guess X:FC2 9/2 takes place during ASM 86...? 

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Mar 03, 2008 11:10 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Apparently so. Anyone care to elaborate on details of placement?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 1:38 pm 
By wolframbane

In ASM 86, Natasha is shown in her old costume, with red hair. In most of her pre-ASM 86 appearances, she is in her old costume and had black hair (the OHOTMU states she is naturally red and dyes her hair black). In XFC2 9/2, she is in her first costume and had black hair, then changed to her catsuit and red hair, inspired by Marvel Girl. I would suggest:

XFC2 9/2 (1:2-1:6). BW in old costume, black hair. Battles Hydra, tries on different costumes, inspired by image of Marvel Girl.
BTS. Apparently resumes natural red hair color.
ASM 86. BW in old costume, red hair. Decides on catsuit for her new image, battles Spider-Man.
XFC2 9/2 (1:7). BW in catsuit, red hair. Battles Hydra again.

I am not entirely sure how this would interconnect with her simultaneous appearance in M/FAN 10-FB. Perhaps:
*XFC2 9/2 (1:2-1:6)
M/FAN 10-FB
ASM 86
M/FAN 10-FB
ASM 86
*XFC2 9/2 (1:7)

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 5:45 pm 
By Enda80

Thanks for posting the amusing bit from Mr. Parker. Actually, Emma Peel from the Avengers was largely the source for the revised look of the Black Widow (Beverly Switzler-also red-headed! also referenced Diana Rigg in an issue of Howard the Duck during Howard the Duck's presdential campaign). There is an in-joke about this in Avengers I#83 in which Roy Thomas' spouse appears in the story "Which one of you is Mrs. Peel?". 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektra:_Assassin

If it does take place around ASM#86, well guess what, we can nail things down even further:

George Olshevksy's Avengers Index#3. In that issue, he discusses Avengers I#61, and notes that some freak weather conditions, such as the abnormally premature snowstorms seen in Elektra: Assassin, were caused by the battle between Ymir and Surtur in Avengers I#61, as well as by the events of Incredible Hulk I#109-110 (in which a large machine that affected the Earth's rotation existed in the Savage Land  this machine was the Planet-Destroyer, which was a weapon of the Sagittarians, used in the service of the Galaxy Master. It is seen in the profile for Umbu the Unliving). Thus, some of the events of Elektra: Assassin took place around the time of other stories with premature snowstorms, such as Amazing Spider-Man I#85, Incredible Hulk I#115, and Daredevil I#52-53. These premature snowstorms came ever now and then during a period of two or three months following the events of Avengers I#61. Further, Avengers I#61 took place towards the end of the third week of September of Peter Parker's sophomore year in college. So, we can nail things down ever further.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektra:_Assassin"

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Mar 04, 2008 5:48 pm 
By Enda80

Marvel Saga#13 also states she has naturally red hair.

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 8:11 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
XFC2 9/2 (1:2-1:6). BW in old costume, black hair. Battles Hydra, tries on different costumes, inspired by image of Marvel Girl.
<<<

You're considering that back-up strip canon?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 9:11 pm 
By wolframbane

As corny as many of the back-up strips are, they may very well be canon. Many of the events from the main stories are referenced (such as Monster Island, Warren dating Wanda, etc), and even the main strip occasionally references the back-ups (like Wanda and Jean becoming friends).

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 9:13 pm 
By wolframbane

Another point of note for the placement of X:FC2 9, it was obviously ice skating weather near the mansion (so NY area).

			*	*	*

Mar 05, 2008 4:12 am 
By Enda80

That would further suggest the placement around ASM I#85, due to the Ymir/Surtur weather disruptions.

			*	*	*

Mar 06, 2008 1:57 am 
By wolframbane

Hmmm... actually X:FC2 9 seems to be split into the main story (first and last pages) and the flashback (the rest of it). We should take this into consideration we we make up the chronologies of Marvel Girl, Cyclops, Prof X, Angel and Scarlet Witch. Nick Fury seems okay (he was not in the FB), but for Dum Dum and Natasha:

DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM"

FURY 1-FB-BTS
*X: FC2 9-FB
FF@ 3


BLACK WIDOW II/NATASHA ROMANOVA

A 16-FB
M/H&L '97
*X: FC2 9-FB
*X: FC2 9
A 29


			*	*	*

Mar 06, 2008 1:59 am 
By wolframbane

Does anyone know which Helicarrier was used in the X: FC2 9? Chronologically it should be the 2nd one I think but it doesn't look like it.
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/shie ... arrier.htm

			*	*	*

Mar 06, 2008 2:21 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Whoops! Good catch with the Flashbacks. 

You're right, this would be the second Helicarrier, as this issue would take place between Strange Tales 135 & 136. If the details don't quite match up, call it differing artistic interpretations. 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 27, 2008 5:59 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I'm noticing that there's a distinct lack of posting about #11 so far here 

Leaving aside the meta stuff for the moment, I'm using this thread because aspects of X:FC2 6/2 and X:FC2 8 get picked up in this issue - the "Mysterio escapes" newspaper headline from the #6 backup, and the reality-warping from #8, where Mysterio is revealed, to have been picking up water from the Man-Thing's swamp during the time the Nexus was wide open (having been there to recruit the Lizard), which allowed him to warp reality using it.

Otherwise, Cyclops & Angel don't appear, and much of the rest is unreliable due to the reality-warping - Jean's momentary lapse into her green costume is no more a placement indicator than Doop's presence.

			*	*	*

Apr 27, 2008 9:53 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Now that you mention X:FC2 11...

The window for this issue in Marvel continuity actually is pretty narrow. It has to take place after FF 50 (1-14), given that the X-Men know about Galactus and the Ultimate Nullifier. It also explicitly occurs before Batroc's first appearance in TOS 75/2. Going from the Indexes and making some adjustments to handle continuity implants, I've placed FF 50 in early August of Year 4 and TOS 75/2 in September of Year 4. Also going from the Indexes, I have UX 19-23 and the first part of UX 24 occurring during the month between FF 50 (1-14) and TOS 75/2.

Placing X:FC2 11 somewhere in the range of UX 19-24 doesn't seem to be a problem for X:FC2 6/2, which precedes X:FC2 11, since I believe that was placed between UX 13 and 14. However, I think this placement of X:FC2 11 creates continuity problems for the preceeding X:FC2 8, which, if I've been following things correctly, is supposed to occur between UX 39 and 40. IIRC, X:FC2 6-8 is after X:FC 5, because X:FC 5 is the first time the X-Men saw Sentinels after UX 16. X:FC 5 may occur after X:FC 4 because of the jet reference, and given Doc Strange and Xavier's presence, X:FC 4 should be after UX 39. Is that right? If so, the weak link in that sequence may be the jet reference.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Apr 28, 2008 10:42 am 
By Somebody
Director

Points:
1) I'm not convinced any chronological references made by the X-Men themselves in this issue are... entirely reliable, by the nature of the story. Just as a loophole.
2) That's not the Blackbird in X:FC2 11, which is the jet in X:FC1 5. It's one of their earlier jets (either the "thought-controlled" jet from UX1, or the STOL jet from UX20). Although it was referenced as in-planning a few times in X:FC v1, and as still being "new" in #4, #5 is the only time it's been actually seen.
3) All they say in X:FC1 4 (*not* 5) is that it's a fixed-up version of "one of the Sentinels they beat up before". They don't specify when they beat it up before, nor that it's only the second time they've seen a Sentinel.
4) X:FC2 8 explicitly occurs the day after X:FC2 7. It's a three-parter (while 9 is linked only to 6/2, not the main stories in 6-8, and probably occurs earlier).

[PS: I've always had X:FC1 5 before 4, though still in the same basic window, since it makes things a bit neater - given that #4's a sequel to UX 33, and Dr Strange appears in X:FC1 4 with his classic look, rather than the mask-like look he's adopted by the Dr S/Avengers story. If 5's before 4, then that enforces that Ymir appears in X:FC 5 before DRSTR177-178 & A61 by default.]

			*	*	*

Apr 28, 2008 11:50 am 
By metaldragon

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Now that you mention X:FC2 11...

The window for this issue in Marvel continuity actually is pretty narrow. It has to take place after FF 50 (1-14), given that the X-Men know about Galactus and the Ultimate Nullifier. It also explicitly occurs before Batroc's first appearance in TOS 75/2. Going from the Indexes and making some adjustments to handle continuity implants, I've placed FF 50 in early August of Year 4 and TOS 75/2 in September of Year 4. Also going from the Indexes, I have UX 19-23 and the first part of UX 24 occurring during the month between FF 50 (1-14) and TOS 75/2.

Placing X:FC2 11 somewhere in the range of UX 19-24 doesn't seem to be a problem for X:FC2 6/2, which precedes X:FC2 11, since I believe that was placed between UX 13 and 14. However, I think this placement of X:FC2 11 creates continuity problems for the preceeding X:FC2 8, which, if I've been following things correctly, is supposed to occur between UX 39 and 40. IIRC, X:FC2 6-8 is after X:FC 5, because X:FC 5 is the first time the X-Men saw Sentinels after UX 16. X:FC 5 may occur after X:FC 4 because of the jet reference, and given Doc Strange and Xavier's presence, X:FC 4 should be after UX 39. Is that right? If so, the weak link in that sequence may be the jet reference.
<<<

I think I concluded (Jan 23 post on page 2 of this thread) that X:FC2 8 CAN go just after X:FC2 6-7 because Marvel Girl's levitation stunt is (just) within the scope of her powers as shown in the UX issues leading up to this placement and the appearance of Thor does not necessarily mean it hast to go after X:FC 5. That bit in X:FC2 8 is in Thor's future, so from his perspective X:FC 5 is in his past. Iceman had encountered Thor 3 times previously so his dialogue still makes sense without having to place X:FC2 8 after X:FC 5.

As for placement around 19-23... There is a gap between 19 & 20 that hasn't been used yet where it might fit. If the Cerebro interface in Professor X's office is shown undamaged and working, then it would have to go between 21 & 22.

Last edited by metaldragon on Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

May 01, 2008 4:51 pm 
By metaldragon

Finally picked up my copy... Since Cerebro isn't shown or even mentioned, X:FC2 11 could easily fit between UX 19 & 20. Another good reason for placing it there... this looks like the last appearance of the original thought-controlled jet from UX 1. The STOL jet is introduced in UX 20 so placing X:FC2 11 (where they crash it) here is actually kinda brilliant.

Just had another thought... if we place the Bernard the poet story in X:FCS 1 between X:FC2 8 and this issue (where we have the Dragon-Man story) it can be explained away as a symptom of Mysterio's Nexus water...! "May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

May 01, 2008 7:10 pm 
By metaldragon

So, to do a recap of the series so far:

UX 1
XFC2 5/2 (Ouija board)
UX 2
X:FC2 5 (Hulk)
A 3
UX 3
[]
UX 7 (1-6, p3)
X:FC 1-FB
UX 7 (6, p4-on)
UTSM 21
UTSM 97
UX 8
X:FC 6-FB
X:FC 6 (Skrulls)
UX 9
UX 10
X:FC2 10-FB
X:FC2 10 (Scott solo mission)
UX 11
UX 12
UX 13
X:FC 7-FB
XMF 3
X:FC 7 (Angel & Scarlet Witch romance)
X:FC2 2 (Mastermind/Monster Island)
X:FC2 3 (Mastermind/Monster Island)
X:FC2 3/2 (Jean & Wanda hang out)
X:FC2 6/2 (Jean & Wanda vs Moleman)
X:FC2 9 (Black Widow & S.H.I.E.L.D.)
UX 14 (1-6)
FF@ 3 ~ M/H&L 1 ~ MARVELS 2
UX 14 (7-20)
UX 15
[]
UX 18
X:FC 2 (Lizard)
X:FC 3 (Cerebro malfunction)
X:FC2 4 (Bobby & Hank road trip)
X:FC 8FB
X:FC 8 (Gorilla Man)
X:FC2 6 (Sentinels/alien comet)
X:FC2 7 (Sentinels/alien comet)
X:FC2 8 (Man-Thing)~X:FC2 11-FB
X:FCS 1/5-FB (Dragon Man)
X:FC2 1 (FF)
UX 19
X:FC2 11 (Mysterio)
UX 20 
UX 21
X:FC 1 (Arctic "field trip")
UX 22
[]
UX 39
X:FC 5 (Thor)
X:FC 4 (Dr. Strange)
X:FCS 1/1 (Museum of Oddities)
X:FCS 1/3 (Bernard the poet)
UX 40

How does that look so far?

Re-read X:FC 1 again and I'm revising my opinion on it's placement. Bobby writes in his letter that he doesn't have a girlfriend, which would place it pre-UX 19. I wonder if it doesn't fit better earlier, say between XMF 3 & X:FC 7 maybe? Since the creative team have pretty much ignored the X-Men's Juggernaut induced injuries, I don't see how placing another issue in that gap will hurt. It makes a good introduction for the Cerebro AI interface and has Angel skipping class. Also, if that is Professor X's office, the desk is intact.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thread 2

Subject: Hostess ads

Apr 21, 2008 10:10 am 
By newtron

Hi,

Is there any interest in including the Hostess ad comics that ran in the 70s as part of the project? Has anybody ever declared them non-canon?

According to the thread at http://www.comixfan.com/xfan/forums/arc ... 36096.html there's some evidence that they do occur in 616. Personally, I agree with a poster on there that Spider-Man/Human Torch #3 is pretty much confirmation of this.

If there's interest, I don't mind analyzing some of them (though probably just the Spidey ones).

(Oh, and sorry if this has been brought up before, I couldn't find any reference to it.)

Davethe spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Apr 21, 2008 11:36 am 
By Somebody
Director

newtron wrote:
>>>
(Oh, and sorry if this has been brought up before, I couldn't find any reference to it.)
<<<

Check the Archives (link at the very bottom of every forum page), especially the big discussion (not limited to the Hostess ads) in Archive 60 which is roughly contemporary with that X-Fan thread.

			*	*	*

Apr 21, 2008 1:28 pm 
By newtron

thanks! that was an extremely interesting discussion. was it ever settled? the talk there just seemed to end with no resolution being established (unless it was continued in another thread that i'm not aware of - there are a lot of archives). i'm curious to know what the criteria are, especially since i've seen a couple of giveaways analyzed recently .

thanks again for the pointer!the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

May 04, 2008 1:15 am 
By ichaberstich

Chiming in! Master of Evil, Icemaster from Thunderbolts #24-25 first appeared in a Hostess ad:
>>>
http://www.tomheroes.arcadeafterdark.com/Comic%20Ads/hostess%20ads/human%20torch%20meets%20icemaster.htm
<<<

The Icemaster Cometh.

Curse that Busiek.

			*	*	*

May 04, 2008 2:06 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Welcome to the boards lchaberstich! And thanks for the link. 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 3

Subject: On Death's Head II

May 04, 2008 4:13 am 
By Ichaberstich

Love the site, long-time haunter.

Well, I saw that the Death's Head II comics had been added so I checked the Death's Head II listing and found only Nick Fury v3 1-6. I discover that the chronology for the DHII, DHII2 character is listed under MINION by searching this board. Confusing, but true. Would it be helpful to indicate that Death's Head II (comic) is Minion on the page?

Then, out of curiosity, I web-fu NF3 1-6 and it appears that the Death's Head Guards/Squadron in those issues were actually a linked-mind alien race called Gnobians. (What's a Gnobian?  ) Checking my handybook for Gnobians, I find that the Death's Head Squadron were driven insane when their "mother" mindlinked with Baron von Strucker and that they killed Dum Dum Dugan during the storyline. Dugan returned sans explanation a bit later. Hmmm, says I.

Additionally, there's a note on the handbook entry that says it's been suggested (Fury #1) that the Gnobians were entirely fabricated by Arnim Zola, though that'd leave a few things unexplained including a Gnobian S.H.I.E.L.D. agent called Lump and the alien tech that led to LMDs. I wonder if any of this might resurface during this summer's Marvel event.  

All speculative tangents aside, is the Death's Head II listing for the entire Gnobian Death's Head Squadron? I've not actually read the issues, but I think I'll have to dig them up now. 

			*	*	*

May 04, 2008 11:01 am 
By Somebody
Director
Yes.

It's a inherent problem when you separate same-name characters by Roman numerals at the end of their name that a character who actually has Roman numerals at the end of their name can screw up the system.

We had a discussion here - http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... f=2&t=2955 - where I asked for a not to be confused with/see Minion" link somewhere around "Death's Head"...

			*	*	*

Thread 4

Subject: Skrull Royalty

May 05, 2008 2:59 am 
By jephyork
Director

I've been doing a little reading on Ze Skrulls to prepare for this summer's event, and I noticed a few things about the various Skrull emperors and empresses in the MCP:

1) Although the two emperors named Dorrek are listed under "D", the two empresses, R'Klll and S'Byll, are listed under "E". Also, princess Anelle is listed under P. They really ought to be moved to R, S and A respectively.

2) R'Klll's final appearance, in FF #257, is missing. (Also, we have her name spelled "R'Kill". I've seen it both ways in the comics, but believe R'Klll to be correct.)

3) S'Byll's appearances in FF #383 and Silver Surfer v3 #105 are missing.

4) The second Dorrek (appearing in Avengers #133-FB) is chronologically first; he reigned millions of years ago at the dawning of the Kree-Skrull war. The two Dorreks should be swapped.

5) Finally, the modern-day Dorrek was revealed to be named Dorrek VII in Marvel: the Lost Generation #11. So we oughtta add those roman numerals after his name.

6) Similarly, when we get around to adding Hulkling / Teddy Altman, be advised that his birth name was Dorrek VIII.

There you have it ... Skrull Royalty-a-rama!

-Jeph!

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Thread 5

Subject: Nekra

May 07, 2008 2:41 am 
By Ichaberstich

Is there any reason why there isn't an entry for Nekra? Mandrill got one!!!

			*	*	*

May 07, 2008 5:08 am 
By dimadick

She has one under Sinclair, Nekra. In her case its a first name not a codename.

			*	*	*

May 07, 2008 9:04 am 
By Somebody
Director

That's an argument that the Thor listing should be at "Odinson, Thor" without so much as a mention under "T", isn't it?

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Subject: Minor She-Hulk Villains update

May 05, 2008 9:14 pm
By Kevin W.
Director

The recent Issue #25 of the latest volume of She-Hulk had the return of the Man-Eliphant. Upon checking the MCP listings, though, the Man-Eliphant doesn't have a listing. I also noticed the Grappler, (another old She-Hulk villain) had a flashback to his "origin" in his initial appearance that wasn't noted in his listing:

MAN-ELIPHANT/MANFRED ELLSWORTH HALLER
**S-H 17
**S-H4 25/2


GRAPPLER
**S-H 18-FB
S-H 18
CA 319

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

May 05, 2008 10:48 pm 
By jephyork
Director

"Elephant". 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

May 06, 2008 8:24 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Curse you, grammar skills, you have failed me again! 

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

May 07, 2008 10:40 am 
By jephyork
Director

Spelling skills. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Subject: Peter Parker and MJ in IF 8

Apr 15, 2008 6:27 pm 
By newtron

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
...
ASM 151
PPTSS 217/2
ASM 152
HTD 1
IF 8
M/TU 39
M/TU 40
DD 135
ASM 153
ASM 154
ASM 155
...

I don't think this placement is correct. At the end of ASM 152, MJ is not speaking to Pete after he's left her at JJJ's party (we learn about their fight in ASM 153). In IF 8, MJ is seen with Pete and even claims they are on a date. This doesn't sound like the kind of behaviour you'd expect if she wasn't speaking to him, as is the case between ASM 152 and 153.

This might be a somewhat tenuous basis upon which to base a change, but I think it works better and the motivation for the original placement isn't clear to me.

New placement suggestion: in ASM 154, Spidey mentions that things are patched up with MJ (in fact we see this in 153), but there's no real space for IF 8 until after ASM 154 is done. I would suggest moving IF 8 to between ASM 154 and 155, as there is a gap of a few days into which it could fit nicely. The same goes for Mary-Jane.

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
...
ASM 151
PPTSS 217/2
ASM 152
HTD 1
M/TU 39
M/TU 40
DD 135
ASM 153
ASM 154
IF 8
ASM 155
...

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 
...
ASM 152
ASM 153
IF 8
ASM 156
...


Davethe spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Apr 15, 2008 8:20 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

I haven't gone to the books to verify, but I suspect that the current placement came from either the Amazing Spider-Man Index, or the Marvel Team-Up Index.

You have to show us why the current order cannot work.


watching: house

			*	*	*

Apr 15, 2008 8:51 pm 
By newtron

i looked in those indexes and didn't see anything mentioning iron fist 8. in fact, the MTU index contradicts the current order. for MTU 39, Spidey's last appearance is listed as HTD 1, not IF 8. furthermore, it states in the MTU 39 entry:

>>>
This story is said to take place on a Friday in August. This accords well with the date of Betty Brant and Ned Leeds's wedding, given as August 27 in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #143. Inasmuch as this story takes place shortly before the story in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #154 (which has the Sandman's next appearance after MARVEL TEAM-UP #40 and follows the story in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #153 by about a day), the stories in this issue and the next must occur between AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #152 and 153. August is two or three months after the story in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #152, well into Peter Parker's summer vacation, and it is almost certain that Peter begins his summer vacation with the trip to Cleveland to meet Howard the Duck in HOWARD THE DUCK #1. Therefore Spider-Man's appearances between AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #152 and 157 take place in the following chronological order:

HOWARD THE DUCK #1. J. Jonah Jameson sends Peter Parker on a trip to Cleveland on a Daily Bugle assignment to obtain photographs of a "duck that talks like a man." Peter is not seen asking for a leave of absence from classes, so the trip probably occurs sometime during Peter's summer vacation.

MARVEL TEAM-UP #39 and 40. "August" here means "early August," no doubt.

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #153. The Homecoming Dance seen in this story has to be a topical reference. Homecoming celebrations take place in late September or early October, at the start of the school athletic season. Since it is known that MARVEL TEAM-UP #40 precedes AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #154, and the latter precedes Ned and Betty's wedding in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #165, the story in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #153 must also take place in August. The Homecoming Dance is probably connected with a class reunion and not a true homecoming dance. Such reunions generally take place during summer vacations.

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #154 and 155. These stories closely follow the story in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #153 and tie up some of its loose ends.

AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #156. The Brant-Leeds wedding, on August 27.
<<<


in the spider-man index, the entry for ASM 152 also makes no mention of IF 8:

>>>
Spider-Man and the Human Torch battle the second Big Man, the second Crime-Master, Fancy Dan, Montana, and the Sandman in MARVEL TEAM-UP #39 shortly after this story. They are joined by the Sons of the Tiger in MARVEL TEAM-UP #40.
<<<

as for specific reasons why the current order cannot work, we just have to take peter parker at his word. in ASM 153 he specifically says:

"yep, life would be just spiffy...if i could get a certain mary jane watson to talk to me! not that i really blame the lady, mind you. i just wish she'd give me a chance to apologize for...hey!"

shortly after, mary jane says to peter "no, little mary jane is just something to be brought to parties and ignored while you go galavanting around town snapping your precious 8x10 glossies! after what you did peter parker--i'd have to be out of me mind to let you talk to me!"

it's clear that she has not spoken to him since he ran out of the party in ASM 151. since they are seen together and, according to mj, "on a date" in IF 8, this cannot have happened between ASM 151 and when they made up in ASM 153. so, it cannot go where it is now if we're to take that conversation between pete and mj to mean anything.

where it should go is more debatable. there is no space in ASM 153 after they make up to insert IF 8, and ASM 154 is set "a few short hours later" - presumably that night. IF 8 could go there I guess, but since ASM 155 states that the events of ASM 154 happened "a few days" earlier, that seems like a more reasonable place to put it.

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Apr 15, 2008 8:56 pm 
By jephyork
Director

EDIT: Wow -- beaten by 5 minutes.

The ASM index (issue #6, p.20) has only this to say:

"Proper chronological ordering of the stories in issues #153-186 requires analysis of Marvel stories outside the Spider-man series. This analysis is not yet finished and will appear elsewhere."

Meanwhile, the MTU index (issue #2, p.26), says that before Marvel Team-Up #39, Spider-Man last appeared in Howard the Duck #1.

Neither issue mentions Iron Fist #8 at all.

And I agree with newtron's reasoning ... Peter and MJ going on a date at that point is *extremely* unlikely.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 15, 2008 9:07 pm 
By newtron

as an only somewhat related follow-up (because it's around the same time period), does anybody have any comments on peter parker's appearance in daredevil 135?

the current chronology has it between m/tu 40 and asm 153. i know newspaper dates aren't supposed to be very good clues for placement, but the bugle in dd 135 has an april 11, 1976 date. this doesn't match up with it being august in spidey's own issues (and the index quoted above), and the daredevil issue isn't mentioned in the indexes.

anyway, i won't push this point, i'm just curious if anyone knows why it was originally placed there.

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Apr 16, 2008 6:58 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I suspect that the Index overlooked IF 8. Newtron's chronology makes sense, and all these stories occur during the summer; the reference to "April 11" in DD 135 is topical. I don't have that issue, so I have no details about Peter's appearance.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

May 09, 2008 4:58 pm 
By newtron

a follow-up: i've been reading through the archives and came across the original post that mentions pete and mj's appearance in this issue. from archive #47:
>>>
Thread 27

Posted: 17 May 2004 06:02 am Post subject: Appearances in IRON FIST
By RLG

Peter Parker and Mary Jane appear in IRON FIST #8 on pg 7, pn 1. I'm not 100% sure where this fits in with their chronologies, but this should be close (providing that the "summer" reference is accurate.) 

SPIDER-MAN/ PETER BENJAMIN PARKER 

ASM 152 
HTD 1 
IF 8 - new 
MTU 39 


WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 

ASM 152 
IF 8 - new 
ASM 153 
<<<

so that explains its original placement.

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Subject: God, Jesus and biblical characters in MU

May 11, 2008 2:39 pm 
By wolframbane

God in the MU has appeared in FF4 511. I was wondering if anyone has done any chronologies for Biblical characters in the MU, like God, Jesus, Abraham, Adam, Cain, etc?

			*	*	*

May 11, 2008 8:24 pm 
By Enda80

http://blaklion.best.vwh.net/timeline597.html

			*	*	*

Thread 9

Subject: Swordsman II/Cotati

May 11, 2008 8:59 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I noted in my Avengers: Celestial Quest #3 analysis that
>>>
The Cotati Swordsman is treated as if the Crossing never happened. I don't have Avengers Forever to hand to check, but I suspect he was retconned into a Space Phantom there, which - if anyone can verify that - should move A 392 & A 395 out of his listing. In addition, he appears in A:CQ 5, which he's not listed for.
<<<

I've checked AF 8 now, and he was. The A:CQ entries also need to be added, so the listing should be:

SWORDSMAN II/COTATI [COTATI]
A 130
A 131
A 132
A 133
A 134
A 135
GSA 4
WCA2 39-FB
SS3 4-FB
**rm A 392 (move to SWORDSMAN IV/"COTATI" [SPACE PHANTOM])
**rm A 395 (move to SWORDSMAN IV/"COTATI" [SPACE PHANTOM])
*A:CQ 3
*A:CQ 5

SWORDSMAN IV/"COTATI" [SPACE PHANTOM]
*AF 8-FB (21:6)
*{A 392}
*A 395

			*	*	*

Thread 10

Subject: Justice or J2?

May 14, 2008 12:53 am 
By wolframbane

Alright, we have Justice vol. 1 abrreviated as J, and Justice vol. 2 as J2. So what do we use for the series J2, the MC2 series about Juggernaut's son? May I suggest using J2 for J2, and changing Justice volumes 1 and 2 to JUSTICE and JUSTICE2?

			*	*	*

May 14, 2008 9:14 am 
By michaelyuri

In my MC-2 chronologies (available in archive 77) I used the code JTWO, since J2 was already taken. I don't particularly care which code ultimately gets used, but it does seem a little clearer to me in most cases to reserve numerical digits for volume numbers.

-Mike

			*	*	*

May 14, 2008 10:57 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Likewise (and rather anti-intuitively, I'll admit), the code for the book "4" is: "FOUR".


watching: house

			*	*	*

May 14, 2008 10:57 am 
By jephyork
Director

POTRZEBIE.

-Jeph!, not helping

			*	*	*

May 14, 2008 9:57 pm 
By Jason Doty

How about "MC2J" for J2?

			*	*	*

May 14, 2008 11:09 pm 
By jephyork
Director

How about "J2" for J2?

In most cases, it makes some measure of sense to spell out things that could cause confusion: "FOUR" for 4, etc.

However, in this case, we've CREATED confusion: there's a book called J2, and an abbreviation "J2", and even though they're letter-for-letter the same thing, they don't refer to the same book!

This would be like having an abbreviation "X-MEN", and hoping that people will know that it refers to "Xavier: Many Erotic Nights", instead of to the much more well-known title that it's actually spelling out.

The J2 thing is bad. Let's change it.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

May 15, 2008 8:18 am 
By Somebody
Director

What he said.

			*	*	*

May 17, 2008 8:56 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph wrote:
>>>
This would be like having an abbreviation "X-MEN", and hoping that people will know that it refers to "Xavier: Many Erotic Nights"
<<<

Actually, that would be X:MEN, not X-MEN. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Subject: NO2 3.....or.....understanding FB

May 20, 2008 3:40 pm 
By cweed4

I could not find any posts regarding this rather obsure and inconsequential comic. But, in my continuing look back through Spidey history I felt like bringing up this minor point to clarify for myself how FB entries are used here.

A search for NO2 3 comes up with the following-

NO2 3 
BIRDBRAIN 
CONDOR 
CONTROLLER/BASIL SANDHURST/XANDER BASEL 
NOVA/RICHARD RIDER 
NOVA 0:0 
NO2 3 -FB-FB 
CONTROLLER/BASIL SANDHURST/XANDER BASEL 
NOVA/RICHARD RIDER 
NO2 3 -FB 
JAMESON, J. JONAH 
NOVA/RICHARD RIDER 
ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE" 
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
URICH, BEN 
NO2 3 -FB-BTS 
CONTROLLER/BASIL SANDHURST/XANDER BASEL 


(A very short) issue summary:
Spidey meets up w/ Ben Urich to figure out why Nova is acting nuts. When he shows up they figure out (through a series of flashbacks) that the Corruptor has, well, corrupted him. The issue is told in a disjointed sequence. The actual chronology of events roughly breaks down by pages like this (w/included characters)-

12-13 nova,corruptor
5-9 nova,spidey,ben,jjj,robbie (corruptor-bts?)
14-18 nova,spidey (corruptor-bts?)
1-4 spidey,ben,corruptor
10-11 nova,spidey,ben
19-22 nova,spidey,ben,corruptor,nova 0:0,condor,birdbrain

The "current time" story takes places over the last 3 lines w/ the first 3 lines involving different FB's. 

So, to keep a short question from becoming ridiculously long and complicated: Does NO2 3 -FB-FB designate a FB within a FB or a second FB? It would seem to me that the chronologies should be listed like this-

nova:
no2 3-fb {approached by corruptor:pp 12-13}
no2 3-fb {attacks bugle:pp 5-9}
no2 3-fb {fights spidey:pp 14-18}
no2 3 {main story:pp 10-11,19-22}

corruptor:
no2 3-fb
no2 3-fb-bts
no2 3-fb-bts
no2 3

spidey:
no2 3-fb
no2 3-fb
no2 3

ben:
no2 3-fb
no2 3

jjj/robbie: (unchanged)
no2 3-fb

nova 0:0/condor/birdbrain: (unchanged)
no2 3



Current listings-
nova:
NO2 3-FB-FB
NO2 3-FB
NO2 3

corruptor:
NO2 3-FB-FB
NO2 3-FB-BTS
NO2 3

spidey:
NO2 3-FB

ben:
NO2 3-FB



At the very least both Spidey and Ben should have 2 entries (NO2 3-FB & NO2 3) since their appearances in the opening pages occur, chronologically, after their appearances on subsequent pages. Of course, this all could be much ado about nothing more than an entry error for a forgettable comic. 

			*	*	*

May 20, 2008 5:02 pm 
By Somebody
Director

cweed4 wrote:
>>>
So, to keep a short question from becoming ridiculously long and complicated: Does NO2 3 -FB-FB designate a FB within a FB or a second FB?
<<<

-FB-FB indeed denotes a nested flashback - i.e., a flashback within a flashback (it's possible, if unlikely by way of extreme rareness), for it to get to -FB-FB-FB or more.

Multiple FBs should always, in theory, be accompanied by page ranges, but in practice older entries often omit them. These entries would still only have one -FB though, subject to the above.

			*	*	*

Thread 12

Subject: SM/XF:SG

May 15, 2008 11:40 am 
By cweed4

The current listing for this mini presents a problem for Flash Thompson. His current chronology has it placed-

ASMU 2-BTS
PPTSS 204
PPTSS 205
PPTSS 207
SM/XF:SG 1-FB
SM/XF:SG 1
SM/XF:SG 2
SM/XF:SG 3
PPTSS 209/2
PPTSS 210/2
ASMU 6/3

However, PPTSS 207 has Flash in the hospital recovering from an attack by Tombstone. He is still there in PPTSS 209/2 and not discharged until PPTSS 210/2 (but still in a cast). This would require the minor adjustment to move that story in Spidey-related chronologies to before PPTSS 204 (the start of the previously mentioned Tombstone storyline). I don't think this should effect the placement for the X-Factor characters.

An alternative argument could be made to move SM/XF:SG after PPTSS 210/2. But, during SM/XF:SG, Pete and Flash are acting like old buddies. The problem with that is found in an exchange between Peter and Flash in PPTSS 207. During his recuperation, Flash tells Peter he has reflected on their friendship and essentially "breaks-up" with him. (This development effectively removes Flash as a supporting character from the Spidey books until after the clone saga  resolves itself.) For that reason it makes much more sense to move the placement the other way.

So, I would suggest the following adjustments-

THOMPSON, EUGENE "FLASH"
ASMU 2-BTS
SM/XF:SG 1-FB
SM/XF:SG 1
SM/XF:SG 2
SM/XF:SG 3
PPTSS 204
PPTSS 205
PPTSS 207
PPTSS 209/2
PPTSS 210/2
ASMU 6/3


ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE"
S-M 38
SM/XF:SG 1
PPTSS 205
PPTSS 205/2
PPTSS 207/2
WOSM 107
WOSM 108
ASMU 3-BTS
ASMU 3/2
PPTSS 208
[removed]
WOSM 110

JAMESON, J. JONAH
S-M 40
SM/XF:SG 1
SM/XF:SG 3
PPTSS 205
PPTSS 205/2
PPTSS 206/2
PPTSS 207/2
WOSM 107
WOSM 108
ASMU 4
PPTSS 208
[removed]
WOSM 110

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
PPTSS@ 13
M/HOL 1993
SMHS 1995/5-FB**
SM/XF:SG 1-FB
SM/XF:SG 1
SM/XF:SG 2
SM/XF:SG 3
PPTSS 204
PPTSS 205
PPTSS 206
PPTSS 207
SM:MA 1
SM:MA 2
SM:MA 3
ASM 383
ASM 384
ASM 385
WOSM 107
WOSM 108
WOSM 109
ASM 385
DIECUT 1-BTS
LFSM 1
LFSM 2
LFSM 3
LFSM 4
ASMU 3
ASMU 3/2
S-M 41
S-M 42
S-M 43
ASMU 4
ASMU 4/2
ASMU 4/3
DRSTR3 61
SLEEP 32
PPTSS 207
PPTSS 208
PPTSS 208/2
TS 4
TS 5
TS 6
TS 7
[removed]
ASM 386


The only discussion I could find for this mini-series was the original issue ananlysis-
http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... mes#p17983


** Another minor change added here is Spidey's appearance in his 1995 Holiday issue. SMHS 1995/5-FB takes place on a christmas just prior to the clone saga . I suggest moving this FB next to another Christmas story. Its current placement (between S-M 44 and Shroud 1) seems like a clear error. S-M 44 takes place on the anniversary of Uncle Ben's death (suggested to be April 1) and none of the surrounding issues even appear to be in winter.

			*	*	*

May 17, 2008 9:23 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

cweed, your point about Flash certainly makes sense. I can see placing SM/XF:SG before PPTSS 204.

I have SM/XF:SG very tentatively placed in late October of Year 17, during the "four day" gap between XF 95 and 96, and before various Christmas stories involving Spidey, including SMHS 1995/5-FB. And, yes, I have placed S-M 44 during the early morning of the following April 1.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

May 19, 2008 9:03 am 
By cweed4

So, this for the old webhead instead-

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
PPTSS@ 13
SM/XF:SG 1-FB
SM/XF:SG 1
SM/XF:SG 2
SM/XF:SG 3
M/HOL 1993
SMHS 1995/5-FB
PPTSS 204

Do you have a preference for which holiday story should be first?

			*	*	*

May 20, 2008 7:08 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

cweed4 wrote:
>>>
Do you have a preference for which holiday story should be first?
<<<

Here's the sequence of Spidey holiday stories I have for Year 17:

M/HOL 1994/5
Spidey helps light the Rockefeller Center Christmas tree on "Christmas Eve" (apparently the MU lights it much later than our universe does).

M/HOL 1993
Spidey changes out of his costume BTS, then shops with M.J. and has another adventure on "Christmas Eve."

SMHS 1995/5-FB
Spidey and the Torch meet at the Statue of Liberty on "Christmas morning."

Paul B.

			*	*	*

May 20, 2008 9:29 am 
By cweed4

So you want to revise this entry:

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
DHAWK 50
*M/HOL 1994/5*
ASM 398

to be included here as well?

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
PPTSS@ 13
SM/XF:SG 1-FB
SM/XF:SG 1
SM/XF:SG 2
SM/XF:SG 3
M/HOL 1994/5
M/HOL 1993
SMHS 1995/5-FB
PPTSS 204

I assume that x-mas in Year 18 is celebrated by Ben Reilly then?

			*	*	*

May 20, 2008 9:43 am 
By Somebody
Director

Just checking, but with all this calendarically-based moving of SMHS 1995/5-FB... has anyone taken another look at the actual story to see if it fits where you're trying to move it to?

			*	*	*

May 20, 2008 10:23 am 
By cweed4

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Just checking, but with all this calendarically-based moving of SMHS 1995/5-FB... has anyone taken another look at the actual story to see if it fits where you're trying to move it to?
<<<


cweed4 wrote:
>>>
 ** Another minor change added here is Spidey's appearance in his 1995 Holiday issue. SMHS 1995/5-FB takes place on a christmas just prior to the clone saga . I suggest moving this FB next to another Christmas story. Its current placement (between S-M 44 and Shroud 1) seems like a clear error. S-M 44 takes place on the anniversary of Uncle Ben's death (suggested to be April 1) and none of the surrounding issues even appear to be in winter.
<<<

Just read it last week 

Its also not completely calendar based movement. I have a problem w/ the split placement of ASM 387 (the middle issue of the Lifetheft story) but haven't finished figuring it all out yet. Stay tuned 

ASM 387 argument now available 

Last edited by cweed4 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

			*	*	*

May 21, 2008 1:55 pm 
By jephyork
Director

The Marvel Universe has four Christmases a year and elects a new President every single November.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Subject: Giant-Size Incredible Hulk #1

May 20, 2008 7:12 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Does anyone care to take a stab at placing the main story in last week's Giant-Size Incredible Hulk #1 and any flashback panels therein that contain new material?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

May 21, 2008 11:25 am 
By Somebody
Director

Well, even the present-day segments are too early for your current calendar, occurring as they do before H3 #8, it seems...

Roger Stern wrote:
>>>
NRAMA: Of all of the "sidekicks" of the Hulk--what makes Fred Sloan unique in the tapestry of the mythos of the Hulk's supporting cast? Sloan was last seen talking about a book he had written and defending the Hulk in light of some deaths that had allegedly occurred (circa Hulk Vol. III #8).

RS: Ah, you remembered! Yes, that book is the one he's researching in my story. 
<<<

			*	*	*

May 21, 2008 1:56 pm 
By Administrator

Yes, Newsarama remembered.

Either that, or they checked the Project.


watching: a haunting

			*	*	*

May 22, 2008 8:12 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Further:

Roger Stern wrote:
>>>
If you want a spot in time to place the story, it's pretty much contemporaneous with the end of my run on the Hulk...just before Fred interviews Betty Ross for his book. [Remember, this is the same book -- Hulk Encounter: A Survivor's Story -- that Fred speaks about in the past tense in HULK Volume III #8.]
<<<

			*	*	*

May 23, 2008 7:13 am 
By Somebody
Director

Thanks, Somebody!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

May 26, 2008 12:41 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Having done a little more checking, I suppose this story should occur after Fred Sloan's appearance in H2 256. Given the Hulk's globe-trotting at this point in time, we'd have to wait until H2 261 for the Hulk to be back in the U.S., and in southern California at that. How about placement between the first and second stories in H2 261?

Then there are all those flashbacks in GSIH 1. Does anyone know what is new material in these flashbacks?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Subject: Placement for Adolf Hitler

May 26, 2008 8:35 pm 
By wolframbane

There is an appearance of Adolf Hitler in DARING MYSTERY 6 (the Marvel Boy story), when he appears in 1926 when the soul of Hercules of Valhalla (not the demigod) observes him rising to power. I have decided to place this between DRSTR2 51-FB (uncertain of actual date, but this is when Hitler was introduced to the occult by Viscount Heinrich Krowler, and as Hitler historically became involved with the occult after meeting Dietrich Eckart of the Thule Society in 1919, this flashback is probably around that time) and INV 36-FB (which occurs in 1932). So I figure for placement:

HITLER, ADOLF 
SJNS
DRSTR2 51-FB
DARING MYSTERY 6
INV 36-FB
...

			*	*	*

May 26, 2008 8:56 pm 
By Administrator

Do you have Daring Mystery 6? If so, please submit an analysis. I don't want to add just one appearance from a book.


watching: gilmore girls

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Thread 15

Subject: Mighty Avengers #14

May 26, 2008 6:29 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Mighty Avengers #14 gives us some insight into just how long certain people have been Skrulls:

The scene with the New Avengers seems to occur around the time of New Avengers #15, when the New Avengers went public. "Jarvis" meets up with "Elektra", "Hank Pym", and"Jessica Drew" in the next scene, (which I think occurs a short while later), then that means all four characters have been Skrulls since before the Civil War. "Contessa" is also at this meeting, so...this meeting occurs just after Secret War, but before "Contessa" is killed by Fury, (as shown a couple of issues ago in Mighty Avengers). The Civil War must be coming up quickly though, (and the Illuminati must've already shot Hulk off into space) as "Jarvis" states "We have decided to let the Hulk situation and the Registration Act situation come to a boil."

So...Hank Pym is a Skrull throughout all of "Avengers: The Iniative"...that's...uncomfortable for me, (going off of how Slott was writing Hank Pym).

And that was more than likely a Skrull who was dating Aunt May the entire time in Amazing Spider-Man...  

And does this confirm that Elektra was replaced around the time of Mark Millar's run on Wolverine a few years back?

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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May 27, 2008 9:46 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin wrote:
>>>
"Contessa" is also at this meeting, so...this meeting occurs just after Secret War, but before "Contessa" is killed by Fury, (as shown a couple of issues ago in Mighty Avengers). 
<<<

Um...

This meeting in MA 14-FB (10-12) occurs right after A4 15 -- that much is clear. Then at a later point, Fury kills the Contessa Skrull in MA 12-FB (4-12). "Two weeks" after that comes MA 12-FB (13-17), and "two months" after that comes MA 12-FB (18-20:7). MA 12-FB (18-20:7) shows a conversation between Fury and "Spider-Woman" for the first time since SECWAR. "Jessica" says she's a secret agent of Hydra with no way out and Fury tells her to go back to SHIELD and grovel for reinstatement. Now does this scene make sense if it happens at least two months and two weeks after the Avengers (w/Spider-Woman) go public in A4 15? Nowhere in Fury's and "Jessica's" conversation do the Avengers come up. Huh? And is Fury actually duped by the Spider-Woman Skrull? Or are both the real Spider-Woman and the Skrull running around? Or maybe another Skrull replaced the killed Contessa Skrull to appear in MA 14-FB (10-12). Paul B.

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May 27, 2008 10:41 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Let the Bendis Brain Twisting begin!!!  

>>>
The scene with the New Avengers seems to occur around the time of New Avengers #15, when the New Avengers went public. "Jarvis" meets up with "Elektra", "Hank Pym", and"Jessica Drew" in the next scene, (which I think occurs a short while later), then that means all four characters have been Skrulls since before the Civil War. "Contessa" is also at this meeting, so...this meeting occurs just after Secret War, but before "Contessa" is killed by Fury, (as shown a couple of issues ago in Mighty Avengers). The Civil War must be coming up quickly though, (and the Illuminati must've already shot Hulk off into space) as "Jarvis" states "We have decided to let the Hulk situation and the Registration Act situation come to a boil."
<<<

It's really a question of "when did the Skrull replace Jessica Drew?" at this point.


>>>
Or maybe another Skrull replaced the killed Contessa Skrull to appear in MA 14-FB (10-12).
<<<

When's the last time we saw "Contessa" before this Mighty Avengers issue? That would solve a lot, if another Skrull was appointed to be "Contessa"...

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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May 27, 2008 11:40 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I'm not convinced that the real Contessa has been replaced by a Skrull yet.(She appeared in the recent Union Jack mini, and she's appearing in Punisher War Journal, for those keeping track)

We know how Skrulls go about replacing people, thanks to New Avengers 39. A Skrull posed as Daredevil to replace Echo, because the Skrulls knew that Echo trusted Daredevil. We know from interviews that Daredevil hasn't been replaced, so it follows that whoever the Skrull is posing as isn't necessarily a replaced character, just someone the target trusts. 

We know that a Skrull posed as Contessa to replace Dum Dum. That Skrull succeeded, and is still 'Dum Dum'. We know a different Skrull posed as Contessa to replace and/or gain information from Fury, but that Skrull failed. So we had at least two different Skrulls posing as Contessa, one is now Dum Dum and the other is dead. I don't see where a third Skrull AS Contessa comes in yet, until we see confirmation that she's been replaced. Meaning; until we see when she was replaced, I'm not convinced. 

Does that make sense? 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Or maybe another Skrull replaced the killed Contessa Skrull to appear in MA 14-FB (10-12).
<<<

Most likely. Everybody trusts the Contessa!  


Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
It's really a question of "when did the Skrull replace Jessica Drew?" at this point.
<<<

I'm pretty sure that question will be answered for us.

-Daron Jensen

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May 28, 2008 11:41 am 
By cweed4

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
It's really a question of "when did the Skrull replace Jessica Drew?" at this point.
<<<

I'm convinced this happened in G-S Spider-woman 1: 
-A powerless Jessica Drew, with former conections to the Avengers+HYDRA+SHIELD, is approached by a mysterious individual offering to give back her powers. 
-Takes place prior to NA #1. 
-Written by Bendis.

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May 30, 2008 6:01 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
until we see confirmation that she's been replaced.
<<<

And now that I've read New Avengers 41, I'm convinced. Dang it.

-Daron Jensen

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May 30, 2008 6:05 pm 
By Somebody
Director

In which case, what do we do with her appearance in Cap #26, considering that the Skrull-Contessa-becomes-Skrull-Dugan SI Prologue takes place on the day of Cap #25, and there's at least one overnight between the two issues (and probably more)?

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May 30, 2008 6:14 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Two different Skrulls. The one that 'became' Dugan was always intended to become Dugan, if you get what I mean. 

It doesn't make any sense to me for there to be a Contessa-Skrull that becomes Dugan, then another that replaces the Contessa-Skrull. The only reason the Skrull that replaced Dugan appeared as Contessa was because Dugan trusted her. 

So we have a Contessa-Skrull that's continuously Contessa, another Skrull that posed as Contessa to get near Fury, and another that posed as Contessa to replace Dugan. But that first Skrull that replaced Contessa was still 'Contessa' the whole time.

-Daron Jensen

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May 30, 2008 6:17 pm 
By Somebody
Director

But we still have three Skrull-Contessas and counting, yes? Grife...

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May 30, 2008 6:37 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

That's because everybody trusts the Contessa! She's hot! 

-Daron Jensen

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Thread 16

Subject: Ajak / Arex

May 31, 2008 12:34 am 
By Mikhail

Ajak the Eternal died in The Herod Factor one-shot (at least temporarily), so he could not have appeared after that in Avengers #361 and Starblast #1 as his chronology indicates. Those were appearances by his virtually identical twin brother, Arex, who was identified by name in the Avengers issue. So, those two entries should be removed from Ajak's chronology, and Arex's should read: 

AREX
A 361
STARBLAST 1
FFU 10
HFH 5-FB

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Thread 17

Subject: Avengers/Invaders 1

May 13, 2008 1:38 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Avengers/Invaders #1 opens with the Invaders(Cap, Bucky, Namor, Human Torch, Toro, Union Jack II, & Spitfire) in Italy, in December 1943. Everyone but Union Jack & Spitfire stumble into the future, in the middle of a fight between Spider-Man and the Thunderbolts. 

Assuming there's no back-and-forth timetravel shenanigans, or if there is it stays in December 1943, here's where this series would fit for the Invaders: 

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS
...
CA 262-FB (1943)
FS-DOCA: IM (11)-FB
M/CP 34/4-FB
*A/INV 1 (12/43)
CA 219-FB (1944)
...

BUCKY/JAMES BUCHANAN BUCKY BARNES
...
CABT
FS-DOCA: IM-FB
*A/INV 1 (12/43)
CA 219-FB (1944)
...

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE
...
N@ 2/2 (1943) 
FS-DOCA: IM-FB
*A/INV 1 (12/43)
CLAN 8-FB (1944)
...

HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND
...
CA5 5-FB (11/42)
FS-DOCA: IM-FB
*A/INV 1 (12/43)
CLAND 8-FB (1944)
...

TORO/TOM RAYMOND
...
CA5 5-FB (11/42) 
FS-DOCA: IM-FB
*A/INV 1 (12/43)
M/U 1-FB
...

UNION JACK II/BRIAN FALSWORTH
...
INV 41
FS-DOCA: IM-FB
*A/INV 1 (12/43)
BP4 21-FB
...

SPITFIRE/LADY JACQUELINE FALSWORTH CRICHTON
...
INV 41
M/CP 89/3-FB
FS-DOCA: IM-FB
*A/INV 1 (12/43)
BP4 21-FB
...

-Daron Jensen

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May 13, 2008 3:50 am 
By wolframbane

The 1943 part occurs in Monte Cassino, Italy. The Battle of Monte Cassino (January 4 - May 19, 1944) was fought near the town of Cassino, Italy as Allied forces attempted to break through the Winter Line and seize Rome. The costly series of four battles results in the deaths of 54,000 Allied personnel and 20,000 Germans.

For what its worth, Wolverine was also probably present at this time. In UX@ 4 he states "I ain't seen weather like this since Italy... that bloody winter below Monte Cassino."

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May 13, 2008 12:44 pm 
By wolframbane

Browsing through some threads online, I found one that was kinda interesting:
(POTENTIAL SPOILERS):

The "unknown" team of heroes (Black Widow, Electro, Silver Scorpion, Black Avenger, Challenger, Captain Terror) seen at 
http://www.geocities.com/marvelindex/av ... rs-001.jpg

They could possibly be the same aliases assumed by many of the Avengers who time travel to the past (perhaps to stay hidden and not screw up the timeline. Specifically, the six Avengers seen on the cover of Avengers/Invaders #1 may hint who they are:
http://media.comics.ign.com/media/956/956301/img_4868327.html

The Challenger strike a very Spider-Man like pose. Electro is a similar archetype as Iron Man. Captain Terror is kinda short, and that smug look on his face reminds me of Wolverine. Black Widow has the same tall, muscular stature as Ms. Marvel. I would guess Silver Scorpion is Spider Woman, or possibly the Wasp, and Black Avenger is Luke Cage (which I guess would remove his standing as one of the original African American characters who did not have the dreaded prefix "Black" in his name, a la Black Panther, Black Goliath, etc).

Last edited by wolframbane on Thu May 15, 2008 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

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May 14, 2008 1:48 pm 
By metaldragon

Um... the first link there only shows the banner of the site. Might want to double check that.

"May the Light shine forever!"

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May 14, 2008 9:44 pm 
By jephyork
Director

It works fine for me...

-Jeph!

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May 15, 2008 7:16 am 
By Somebody
Director

Comicboards images are anti-hotlinked - unless you've (a) got it in your cache or (b) have your PC set up to hide what site you came from, the image "shouldn't" show up if you click on it. Copy & paste the link instead.

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May 15, 2008 1:23 pm 
By wolframbane

Here you guys go, I fixed the link:
http://www.geocities.com/marvelindex/avengers-invaders-001.jpg

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May 17, 2008 12:31 pm 
By morwen

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
Browsing through some threads online, I found one that was kinda interesting:
(POTENTIAL SPOILERS):

The "unknown" team of heroes (Black Widow, Electro, Silver Scorpion, Black Avenger, Challenger, Captain Terror) seen at 
http://www.geocities.com/marvelindex/av ... rs-001.jpg

They could possibly be the same aliases assumed by many of the Avengers who time travel to the past (perhaps to stay hidden and not screw up the timeline. Specifically, the six Avengers seen on the cover of Avengers/Invaders #1 may hint who they are:
http://media.comics.ign.com/media/956/9 ... 68327.html
<<<

Note that Black Widow and Electro are original Timely characters now appearing in The Twelve, and they definitely are same character design, so these two are unlikely to be time-displaced New/Mighty Avengers. Expect the other four will be, though.

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May 17, 2008 11:24 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

As for the current day portion: 

MyCup o' Joe wrote:
>>>
Stephen asks of a particular release this week: 
Could you shed some light on when Avengers/Invaders happens? During the Secret Invasion? Right before? Or somewhere between Civil War and Secret Invasion? 
JQ: I hate to nail these things down concretely before the stories are finished, Steven, because it ruins the suspense. If you know that Avengers/Invaders takes place after Secret Invasion, for example, then you can be pretty sure that Iron Man and Luke Cage and everybody else come through the experience largely unscathed. 

That said, the beginning of Avengers/Invaders takes place "now," shortly before the start of the Secret Invasion.
<<<

And there it is!

-Daron Jensen

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May 29, 2008 4:09 am 
By wolframbane

Alright everybody. Here is some promotional artwork from Avengers/Invaders with many golden age characters, many well known and obscure. Can anyone help me identify them all? There is a no-prize in it for y'all !! 

http://www.geocities.com/marvelindex/ga-heroes1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/marvelindex/ga-heroes3.jpg

1 - Angel
2 - Defender
3 - 
4 - 
5 - Miss Liberty
6 - 
7 - 
8 - 
9 - 
10 - Citizen V
11 - 
12 - Destroyer
13 - Marvel Boy I
14 - 
15 - 
16 - 
17 - 
18 - The Fin
19 - Vision
20 - Hurricane
21 -

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May 29, 2008 11:19 am 
By Frederic Krier

1 - Angel
2 - Defender
3 -
4 -
5 - Miss America
6 - Blue Blaze (not 100 % sure though)
7 -
8 - The Challenger
9 - The Vagabond
10 - Citizen V
11 - The Fiery Mask (not 100 % sure again)
12 - Destroyer
13 - Marvel Boy I
14 - The Falcon
15 - Blue Diamond
16 - probably The Whizzer
17 -
18 - The Fin
19 - Vision
20 - Hurricane
21 - Black Marvel (or is no. 17 Black Marvel?)

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May 29, 2008 3:33 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

1 - Angel
2 - Defender
3 - Red Raven
4 -
5 - Miss America
6 - Blue Blaze (yeah, I think you're right)
7 - Jack Frost
8 - The Challenger
9 - The Vagabond
10 - Citizen V
11 - Major Liberty (it's those starry gloves)
12 - Destroyer
13 - Marvel Boy I
14 - The Falcon
15 - Blue Diamond
16 - The Whizzer (you're right)
17 - Young Avenger
18 - The Fin
19 - Vision
20 - Hurricane
21 - Black Marvel (you're right)

#4... I don't know. It's not the Thin Man, maybe it's one of the magicians? Monako, Mantor, or Dakor?

-Daron Jensen

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May 31, 2008 11:37 pm 
By wolframbane

Great guys!! No-prizes one and all!!

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Thread 18

Subject: Wolverine: First Class #2

May 01, 2008 12:40 am 
By wolframbane

Wolverine: First Class #2
June 2008
"Surprise!!" (22 pages)
Characters: Wolverine, Kitty Pryde, Prof X, Colossus, Storm, Angel, Nightcrawler, Dazzler, Mariko Yashida, Dazzler (BTS), Sabertooth

(1-4) One day. Kitty asks all the X-Men to drive her and her friends to a Dazzler concert "in just a couple of weeks." She hacks the prof's computer and finds out Logan's birthday is soon.
(5-21) One day. The X-Men give Logan a surprise party sometime after W:FC 2 (1-4). Logan, Mariko and Kitty go out to dinner in Tribeca. They clash with Sabertooth, who Kitty blows up with a gas line.
(22) One day. Logan chaffeurs Kitty and her friends to the Dazzler concert, "a couple of weeks" after W:FC 2 (1-4), with "Saturday April 19th" printed on the tickets.

Placement notes:
Kitty is in dance class, so after UX 139.
Angel is still with the team, so before UX 148.
Kitty Pryde may or may not have assumed her codename.
Wolverine is not shown in costume, despite his brown uniform on the cover.
Mariko gets a call from Tokyo ("when I come back, I want you to tell me exactly what it is that's troubling you.")

Calendar notes:
W:FC 1 was stated as having occurred "August 20". Paul B's calender places in in later September.
W:FC 2 (22) occurs "Saturday April 19th," W:FC 2 (1-4) occurs "a couple of weeks" before.
W:FC 2 (5-21) occurs during Logan's birthday. Sabertooth has stalked Logan on his birthday also in W2 10-FB (he attacked Silver Fox in "winter"), CX 10/2 (shortly after he joined the X-Men, "late May' according to the X-Men Index #5), and W2 10 ("March" or so according to Paul B's calendar).

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Thread 19

Subject: the TWELVE 1

Jan 17, 2008 5:53 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

the Twelve #1 
March, 2008 

Appearances: 
Main Cast: 
Black Widow(Claire Voyant), Blue Blade(Roy Chambers), Captain Wonder(Professor Steve Jordan), Dynamic Man(Curt Cowan), Electro Marvel of the Age!(Professor Philo Zog), Fiery Mask(Dr. Jack Castle), Laughing Mask(Dennis Burton), Master Mind Excello(Earl Everett), Mister E.(Vince Jay), Phantom Reporter(Dick Jones), Rockman, the Witness(?), unnamed Colonel 

Guest shots: 
Red Raven, Angel(Thomas Halloway), Destroyer II(Roger Aubrey), Union Jack II(Brian Falsworth), Black Marvel(Dan Lyons), Captain America II(William Naslund), Bucky II(Fred Davis), Sgt. Fury, Dum Dum Dugan, Reb Ralston, Night Raven(2?), Namor, the Sub-Mariner, Human Torch(Jim Hammond), Miss America(Madeline Joyce Frank), Captain Terror(Dan Kane), Fin(Peter Noble), Whizzer(Robert Frank), Blue Diamond(Professor Elton T. Morrow), Father Time(Larry Scott), Defender(Don Stevens) 

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg9: Berlin; 25 April, 1945 
Allied super heroes fight Nazi troops as Berlin falls. A group of twelve, led by Master Mind Excello, split off and searches the nearby S.S. Headquarters. They make their way to the basement where theyre ambushed and frozen by an S.S. Commander and some doctors. They planned to wait until the Americans won and their attention turned to Japan, so they could come back and retrieve their research, but they hadnt planned for the vengeance of the Russians. 
Pg10: Berlin; most likely 27 April, 1945 
The S.S. Commander and his doctors have been captured by the Russians. Most will be killed, and some will be tortured. Meanwhile, the Twelve continue to sleep. 
Pg11-pg14: Berlin; 2 August, now 
Construction has started on a new apartment building in Berlin, but the ground collapses revealing the frozen twelve heroes. Shortly afterwards, American military arrives to claim them. 
Pg15: America; a few days later 
The Phantom Reporter rests in his hospital room, but somethings wrong. Some details of the nurse arent quite right and he suspects hes being held by the Nazis. 
Pg16-pg19: three days later 
Having worked out the staffs schedule, the Phantom Reporter puts a plan together with Captain Wonder to find out where they are. Captain Wonder flies up to the roof while the Phantom Reporter grabs a nickel for a phone call but the nickel is dated 2008 and the city looks very strange 
Pg20-pg21: a few days later 
The Twelve have been debriefed and they agree to pick up where they left off, working as American heroes, but under the new Registration laws. 
Pg22: quite some time later 
With a gun in his hand, the Phantom Reporter stands over the dead Blue Blade. 

References: 
Current Day Stuff: 
Its after Civil War, the Registration Act is still in effect, and thats about it. Theres no S.H.I.E.L.D. agents, though, which is kind of strange. 

Those last two pages will most likely have other issues taking place between them. Just a heads up. 

World War II Stuff: 
25 April, 1945 really nails things down for placement, for everyone involved. Except: 

According to Marvel Superheroes 390-393, the Night Raven appearing here cant be the first Night Raven. These issues arent currently in the MCP yet, and I dont own them to verify, so does anyone care to analyze these? 

Cap(Steve) & Bucky(James) died after FDR did, before Hitler died, and before Germany fell. Therefore, these are the replacement Cap & Bucky appearing here.(Naslund & Davis) This causes some weirdness with WI? 4, SAGAHT 2, & SAGASM 5, but oh well I guess.(President Truman didnt inform the Invaders that Cap & Bucky had been replaced until after Hitler had died. I guess with all the excitement of Berlin falling, no one had a chance to chat) In any case, this has to follow CA 215-FB for Naslund, making this the first appearance of Cap II & Bucky II. 

Sgt. Fury was in a coma at this time, but since the Howling Commandos appear here, and since Furys eye is bandaged, Ill have to grudgingly assume that somehow Fury was able to get out of his coma, appear shortly during the fall of Berlin, and then fall back into a coma to appear in the remainder of Peacemaker. 

With Philo Zog long dead, I wonder what Electro will do except stand around? I guess well find out! 

Not really a reference, but it was nice to see, when the Twelve start working their way through the S.S. Headquarters, pictures on the wall of Baron Strucker and Baron Zemo, along with a picture of Hitler and a bust of the Red Skull. Along with all of the retcon heroes appearing alongside the Golden Age heroes, that really was a lot of fun. 

Some placement suggestions: 

BLACK WIDOW/CLAIRE VOYANT 
MARVELS 1 
*TWELVE 1 

BLUE BLADE/ROY CHAMBERS 
TWELVE 1 

CAPTAIN WONDER/PROFESSOR STEVE JORDAN 
TWELVE 1 

DYNAMIC MAN/CURT COWAN 
TWELVE 1 

ELECTRO/PROFESSOR PHILO ZOG 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/5 
*TWELVE 1 

FIERY MASK/DR. JACK CASTLE 
HUMAN TORCH 2/6 
*TWELVE 1 

LAUGHING MASK/DENNIS BURTON 
TWELVE 1 

MASTER MIND EXCELLO/EARL EVERETT 
TWELVE 1 

MISTER E./VINCE JAY 
TWELVE 1 

PHANTOM REPORTER/DICK JONES 
TWELVE 1 

ROCKMAN 
USA COMICS 1/4 
USA COMICS 2/5 
USA COMICS 3/5 
USA COMICS 4/6 
*TWELVE 1 

WITNESS/ 
TWELVE 1 
(and of course, this would bump the other two Witnesses up a numeration each) 

RED RAVEN 
RED RAVEN 1 
*TWELVE 1 
UX 44-FB-BTS 
 

ANGEL/THOMAS HALLOWAY (1940's hero) 
 
HUMAN TORCH 5B 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 3/2 
SUB-MARINER COMICS 4/3 
*TWELVE 1 
CV 1-FB 
 

DESTROYER II/ROGER AUBREY
From Dyna-Mite 
INV 26 
INV 34-FB 
INV 34 
ALL WINNERS COMICS 4/5 
MARVELS 1 
MSU 9 (01/45) 
*TWELVE 1 
CV 1-FB 
CV 2-FB 
TB 42-FB 
 

UNION JACK II/BRIAN FALSWORTH 
 
INV 41 
FS-DOCA: IM-FB 
BP4 21-FB 
M/U 1-FB 
WS: WK 1-FB-BTS (12/24/44) 
MSU 9 (01/45) 
SAGAHT 2 
*TWELVE 1 
WI? 4 (1-8) 
SAGASM 5 
WI? 4 (9-34) 
CV 1-FB 

BLACK MARVEL/DAN LYONS 
MARVELS 1 
*TWELVE 1 
CA 442 
 

CAPTAIN AMERICA II/WILLIAM NASLUND
From Spirit of 76 
*TWELVE 1 
WI? 4 (1-16) 
 

BUCKY II/FRED DAVIS 
*TWELVE 1 
WI? 4 (1-16) 
 

FURY, SGT. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH 
 
F: PM 5 
F: PM 6 (1-17) 
*TWELVE 1 
F: PM 6 (18-22) 
NF3 38-FB 
M/SPT 31 (3:7-4:4)-FB (03/46) 
SGTF@ 1 
 

DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM" 
... 
SGTF 108 (02/45) 
CA: SL2 12-FB 
*TWELVE 1 
SGTF@ 1 
 

RALSTON, ROBERT "REB" 
 
SGTF 108 (02/45) 
*TWELVE 1 
SGTF@ 1 
 

NIGHT RAVEN II/ 
TWELVE 1 

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE 
 
N@ 1/2-FB 
*TWELVE 1 
WI? 4 (1-8) 
 

HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND 
 
N@ 1/2-FB 
*TWELVE 1 
SAGAHT 2 (19:3-23) 
WI? 4 (1-5:4) 
 

MISS AMERICA/MADELINE JOYCE FRANK 
 
MISS AMERICA MAGAZINE 5 
*TWELVE 1 
WI? 4 (1-16) 
 

CAPTAIN TERROR/DAN KANE 
USA COMICS 2 
USA COMICS 3 
USA COMICS 4/5 
*TWELVE 1 
CA 442 

FIN/PETER NOBLE 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 7 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 8 
COMEDY COMICS 9 
*TWELVE 1 

WHIZZER/ROBERT L. FRANK 
 
COMPLETE COMICS 2 
*TWELVE 1 
WI? 4 (1-16) 
 

BLUE DIAMOND/PROFESSOR ELTON T. MORROW 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 7 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 8 
M/PRM 29 
INV 6 
M/PRM 30 
INV 35-FB 
INV 36 
INV 37 
INV 38 
*TWELVE 1 
CV2 1-FB 
M/TIO 79 

FATHER TIME/LARRY SCOTT 
TWELVE 1 

DEFENDER/DON STEVENS 
USA COMICS 1 
USA COMICS 2/4 
USA COMICS 3/4 
USA COMICS 4/3 
*TWELVE 1

-Daron Jensen

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Jan 17, 2008 6:18 pm 
By Enda80

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=877&highlight=gruenwald

From Don Campbell:

As for the date of Captain America's disappearance, in
CAPTAIN AMERICA #332 the chairman of the Commission
(on Superhuman Activities) states that Captain America
"disappeared on May 2, 1945, but (was) never
officially declared dead." This is inconsistent with
that WHAT IF? [#4] issue which had Cap disappearing on
April 18, 1945 and the other Invaders not learning of
it until after the Human Torch killed Hitler on April
30, 1945. However, it is consistent with CAPTAIN
AMERICA ANNUAL #13 which indicated that the original
Cap's final wartime battle with the Red Skull took
place on the same night that the Human Torch killed
Hitler. 
If the WI? story were correct, then Captain America
and Bucky would have died almost two weeks before the
Invaders were notified of their deaths. I'm not sure
how plausible that was, even when the story was first
published. I guess the "April 18th" reference should
just be ignored from now on? 

For what it's worth, WI? 4 was written in 1977 by Roy
Thomas, CA 332 was written in 1987 by Mark Gruenwald,
and CA @13 was written in 1994 by Roy Thomas. I guess
Thomas, when writing the latter story, decided to
accept Gruenwald's date over his own earlier choice. 

Added: Saga of the Sub-Mariner #5 has a scene of the
Invaders meeting from WHAT IF? #4. After Toro confirms
that it was the Human Torch who killed Hitler, Colonel
Farrow tells the Invaders, "I'm afraid we've received
a top-secret dispatch - - saying (Captain America) and
young Bucky were evidently killed in action, defending
a base south of London." Namor's narrative of this
panel adds, "It was years before the world learned
that Steve Rogers, at least, had not perished in
April, 1945." 

Saga of the Original Human Torch #4 (Error: it was
issue #3) shows the Human Torch and Toro killing
Hitler in his bunker on April 30, 1945 and then adds
"back in London, we'd learn that Captain America and
Bucky were missing and presumed dead." 

It was only to be thorough that I mentioned that April
reference from Saga of the Sub-Mariner #5, I wasn't
presenting it as proof of anything. Remember, that
whole LS turned out to be Namor's autobiography. And
when you consider how many times Namor has suffered
from amnesia, it's understandable that he could
misremember a date that was over forty years in the
past. 

As for Saga of the Original Human Torch #3, that story
doesn't make any mention of how soon after Hitler's
April 30th death the next meeting of the Invaders took
place in London so there's no problem there. However,
I'm not sure if the original version of that scene
(from WHAT IF? #4) was as flexible. 

One small temporal discrepancy from SotOHT #2. That
story has a scene at which the Invaders are told that
President Roosevelt had died that morning. Colonel
Farrow then assigned Captain America and Bucky to
guard a top-secret drone plane at the airbase just
south of London, and later told the Human Torch and
Toro that he had a few minor missions for them and
then, in a week or so, they would be going to Berlin
to try to capture Adolf Hitler alive. Since FDR died
on April 12th and the Berlin mission didn't take place
until April 30th, there was obviously a greater delay
than Farrow had anticipated. Also, the story in
Captain America Annual #13 depicts Cap's mission to
invade the Red Skull's bunker and retrieve Hitler's
top-secret strongbox. During that mission, Cap
mentions that the Human Torch and Toro are (or will
be) handling the invasion of Hitler's bunker. Later,
once his mission is completed, Cap mentions that he
and Bucky "have to guard an airdrome back in England."
If Cap's mission took place on the same night as (or
just before) the Human Torch's mission, then he was
only BACK guarding the drone plane for a few days
before his fateful encounter with Baron Zemo (who had
been sent to Britain by the Red Skull before the
Skull's apparent death).

			*	*	*

Jan 17, 2008 6:58 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

In CA@ 13, Hitler mentions that the Soviets are attacking Germany but that the other Allied forces haven't made it yet. This is consistent with 'real' history, in that the Russians attacked Germany on 16 April, 1945, but the rest of the Allied assault didn't make it in until the 23rd. It would seem to me that Roy Thomas was sticking with his original date of 18 April for the 'deaths' of Captain America & Bucky. 

At first, I also thought it was strange for the Invaders not to have been informed immediately of Captain America's death. But then I realized that the American government wouldn't have told anyone until they knew what they were going to do about it. It makes sense to me that President Truman didn't tell the Invaders until he had a replacement lined up for Cap & Bucky. Once the plan was in place, the world wouldn't know of the 'deaths', but out of respect, the Invaders were told the truth.(of course, some of this leaked out, as there have been newspapers seen in the Marvel Universe of Cap's death) 

Through my research, this is how I have it: 

12 April 
Roosevelt dies, Invaders informed & given assignments.(CA: SOL 7/2, SAGAHT 2) 

16 April 
Russians begin invading Germany.(TOS 72, TOS 79, CA@ 13) 

18 April 
Cap & Bucky 'die.'(WI? 4, CA: SOL 12, A 56, A 4, CA5 4, CA5 6, CA 220, CA 215) 

20 April 
Willian Naslund tapped for new Captain America, his Bucky is being looked into.(CA 215) 

25 April 
Final Allied ground troop assault on Berlin.(TWELVE 1) 

30 April 
Hitler dies.(SM: FI, SAGAHT 2, WI? 4, SAGAHT 3, YOUNG MEN 24, SVTU 17, FF3 53) 

2 May 
Invaders informed of Captain America's death, sent to Washington.(SAGASM 5, WI? 4) 

3 May 
Invaders informed that Captain America has been replaced.(WI? 4, SAGAHT 3)

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 17, 2008 7:06 pm 
By Enda80

The OHOTMU online bibliographies went with May 2, 1945 for Cap's disappearance. 

The story leaked to the Daily Bugle per Cap I#155. This was done during the editorship of Walter "Old Man" Jameson (name revealed in the Back in Black Handbook) per Captain America I#219's letters page.

			*	*	*

Jan 17, 2008 7:40 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

The Back in Black Handbook says Walter, but Sgt. Fury 110 says Jonah.(not J. Jonah, just Jonah) The online bibliography says 2 May, but What If...? 4(the only What If...? to have 'actually happened!') says 18 April. It looks like the Handbook guys aren't looking at the books, and it looks like you just destroyed your own argument. 

Re: CA 219's letters page 
>>>
(4) The recent Invaders issue of WHAT IF established clearly that only one paper, The Daily Bugle (doubtless under the hand of its new less-than-responsible publisher, J. Jonah Jameson), broke the news of Cap's and Bucky's "deaths." Later, both were considered by the public to be alive, till they vanished from public sight in 1949-- in a story we'll tell you sometime soon now. 
<<<

I don't see 'Walter' anywhere in there. What are you talking about, 'per Captain America I#219's letters page.'? 

Stories trump the Handbooks, stories trump the letters pages. 

But how about this: the Daily Bugle broke the story on 2 May, 1945. That's when people heard about it, that's the date people remember.(that's also the date I have for when the Invaders find out) That date's wrong, however, Cap actually died on 18 April.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 17, 2008 8:48 pm 
By Enda80

He died?

			*	*	*

Jan 17, 2008 9:28 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

No response to Sgt. Fury 110. No response to the quote from CA 219's letters page. No response to policy. No response to an offered compromise/solution. 

Instead... 

You're reduced to arguing semantics? Oh Noez! He forgot the tick marks! ZOMG! THAT'S you rebuttal? 

*Sigh* We were having a nice little debate there...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 18, 2008 4:21 pm 
By loki

Col_Fury wrote:
The Back in Black Handbook says Walter, but Sgt. Fury 110 says Jonah.(not J. Jonah, just Jonah) It looks like the Handbook guys aren't looking at the books, and it looks like you just destroyed your own argument. 

We ("the Handbook guys") do look at the books. That said, I am not the writer of that particular profile and have not read that specific issue; however, I have checked with another member of the writing team who has, and as far as he could see, the character in question was called Jameson and JJ, but not Jonah. If he has missed a "Jonah," then apologies, though it won't change the rest of what I have to say. More on this below, as part of my response to your next point.

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Re: CA 219's letters page
>>>
(4) The recent Invaders issue of WHAT IF established clearly that only one paper, The Daily Bugle (doubtless under the hand of its new less-than-responsible publisher, J. Jonah Jameson), broke the news of Cap's and Bucky's "deaths." Later, both were considered by the public to be alive, till they vanished from public sight in 1949-- in a story we'll tell you sometime soon now. 
<<<

I don't see 'Walter' anywhere in there. What are you talking about, 'per Captain America I#219's letters page.'? 


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Stories trump the Handbooks, stories trump the letters pages. 
<<<

You see, this isn't strictly accurate, though it is a common misconception. The correct statement is "Stories USUALLY trump the Handbooks, but Handbooks CAN SOMETIMES trump the stories."

To clarify what I mean. If a Handbook contradicts something seen in a given story (as opposed to simply adds new info or expands on / clarifies what is seen) due to the entry's writer misreading the story, then the Handbook has an error. It happens, and when we learn of errors, we admit them. However, if the Handbook contradicts a given story because the writer spotted that something does not make sense (usually something which contradicts multiple other stories) and the writer then raised this issue with editorial, discussed possible solutions, and then went with the editorially-approved correction, then the Handbook is right and the story as depicted in the comic is wrong. It's a retcon to fix a problem, and is part of the remit of the Handbooks; smoothing over bumps in the depicted history. If you ever read the MTU story where Hercules pulled a displaced Manhattan back into position using brute strength, then you should know that the events depicted in a specific comic can be called into question. The Handbooks do not do this casually, nor very often, but they can, will and have done it when required.

With regards to Sgt. Fury #110, the Jameson character was clearly intended to be J. Jonah Jameson. However, thanks to the ever-sliding timeline, he now cannot be. When Sgt. Fury#110 was written, it was not impossible to have Jonah as an adult in 1940. Now, it's a topical reference. Marvel's official policy is that there is now no way Jonah was an adult at that time. That would make him like 90 years old now, and 100 years old in another decade. Jonah is not aging in real time while everyone around him is aging at 1/5 that rate. Young Avengers #1 recently established that Jameson was a child when he learned of Cap's apparent death - and that could have been well after the war, but certainly not prior to 1945, meaning he couldn't possibly be a newspaper editor during the war. Which means that any 1945 or earlier appearances of Jameson has to be someone other than JJJ. There's nothing new about this - early stories showed Ben Grimm and Reed Richards in WWII, but it has since been revealed (retconned) that it was Reed's GRANDFATHER who was in WWII. The Night Raven text stories provided the first recognition that Jameson and the sliding timescale would pull JJJ out of the war, and the solution - the mention of "Old Man" Jameson. Hence all references that show Jameson are now attributed to the previously revealed (IN-STORY, not just from a handbook) Old Man Jameson, from the Night Raven stories. That would still be the case if the character was called in-story "Jonah" or "JJJ," just as wartime appearances of Reed Richards that cannot be shifted forward to a more recent time become his grandfather John, even if the character got called Reed in-story.

To avoid confusion with J. Jonah, "Old Man" Jameson was given the official first name "Walter" as of the Daily Bugle entry.

			*	*	*

Jan 18, 2008 11:35 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Hot Dog did that come out wrong!  

Thanks for responding loki. Obviously, 'the Handbook guys' look at the books. And read them, in detail. It would be impossible to do what you guys do otherwise.(I feel the need to add that I buy the Handbooks, read them, and enjoy them. I love 'em!) I apologize for that, I really didn't mean for it to come out the way it did. 

As for WWII Jameson, flipping through Sgt. Fury 110 the first two name-drops I caught at a glance was 'Jameson' & 'JJ'. So there you go. I'm sure it was intended to be J. Jonah at the time, even the letters page from CA 219 stated that it was intended for J. Jonah to be at the Bugle during the War. As for drawing a line between the two Jamesons, I can totally understand assigning a name like Walter, there's no way I would confuse a Jonah for a Walter.  

But hey, I appreciate the explanation and the rationale. 

Thank you!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 6:44 am 
By loki

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Hot Dog did that come out wrong!  
<<<

That's okay. No offense taken.


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Thanks for responding loki. Obviously, 'the Handbook guys' look at the books. And read them, in detail. It would be impossible to do what you guys do otherwise.(I feel the need to add that I buy the Handbooks, read them, and enjoy them. I love 'em!) I apologize for that, I really didn't mean for it to come out the way it did. 

As for WWII Jameson, flipping through Sgt. Fury 110 the first two name-drops I caught at a glance was 'Jameson' & 'JJ'. So there you go. I'm sure it was intended to be J. Jonah at the time, even the letters page from CA 219 stated that it was intended for J. Jonah to be at the Bugle during the War. As for drawing a line between the two Jamesons, I can totally understand assigning a name like Walter, there's no way I would confuse a Jonah for a Walter.  
<<<

Yes, exactly the idea. As it stands, "JJ" might not even be the man's initials (well, we've established they aren't), as it could be some sort of nickname - "Jolly Jameson" being an obvious possibility which could have then passed down to his successor. And while the Night Raven mention of "Old Man Jameson" has someone claim he is the later Jameson's father, since that would conflict with what we know of JJJ's past, we've taken the line that they probably aren't related (and certainly not father and son), but that people often assumed it because of the surnames and because the modern JJJ seems to have (presumably deliberately) adopted some of his namesake's trademarked look; basically, we are coming from a remit of trying to make the maximum amount fit with the minimal disruption to what the stories themselves establish.


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
But hey, I appreciate the explanation and the rationale. 

Thank you!
<<<

No problem. I've seen some comments on the Chronology project in the past disagreeing with stuff which appeared in the Handbooks or wondering why we did something. All I'd say is, please remember we try to do everything for a reason, and nothing is done casually just for the h*** of it. If you do find yourself scratching your heads over something the handbooks have said, there are ways to reach us and to ask why we did something.

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 10:08 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

loki wrote:
>>>
No problem. I've seen some comments on the Chronology project in the past disagreeing with stuff which appeared in the Handbooks or wondering why we did something. All I'd say is, please remember we try to do everything for a reason, and nothing is done casually just for the h*** of it. If you do find yourself scratching your heads over something the handbooks have said, there are ways to reach us and to ask why we did something.
<<<

I know what you're talking about. I've seen the same kinds of comments about the Chronology Project, on other sites.


watching: fox 6 news

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 6:58 pm 
By loki

Yes, sorry, I should have made it clearer - I'm not singling out the Chronology Project out as the only place where some people occasionally go "what the f**** were they thinking" (or words to that effect). The internet is rife with people who do that (about the Handbooks, and as you say about the Chronology Project, and other reference sites for that matter). All I wish is that when people have such queries or think we've done something wrong, since we can be contacted, they actually ask us, rather than (or as well as) posting their point of contention on a random message board we might never see. If it is a mistake, we need to know, so we can correct it; if it isn't a mistake, then it'd be nice to be given the chance to explain why it isn't. I'm suspect you probably feel the same when the target of these kind of comments is the Chronology Project.

			*	*	*

Jan 19, 2008 7:03 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

You read my mind. There are legions of fans out there who can help us make the Project better, if they'd just post here, rather than griping on some other anonymous site.  What can you do?


watching: monk

			*	*	*

Jan 20, 2008 8:24 pm 
By wolframbane

Hey Col_Fury, will you be reviewing The Twelve #0? They have reprints of USA Comics #1 (Rockman), Daring Mystery Comics #2 (Laughing Mask) and Daring Mystery Comics #3 (Phantom Reporter). Hope they have more reprints in later issues.

Black Widow (Claire Voyant) was revealed to have been active post-war in Marvel Knights: Spider-Man #9 (2004), and Ian McNee heard a rumor that Patsy Walker (Hellcat) is working with an old widow named Claire investigating occult crimes in Marvel Tarot (2007). I wonder how these may effect her being in stasis since 1945.

Rockman is revealed in USA Comics #1 to be the leader of the underground world Abysmia ("our ancestors, the first white inhabitants of this continent, sought refuge inside the Earth during the Ice Age"). This story, published in 1941, is probably the actual first appearance of Subterranea, preceding FF 1 by 20 years. The Abysmians would have probably come to North America during the last Ice Age from Europe (circa 10,000 years ago) and then settled underground, around the same as Asians crossed the bering Land Bridge and developed into the Native American cultures. This would have been much later than the founding of the other Subterranean races (circa 18,000 years ago) created by the Deviants, such as the Gortokians, Lava Men, Moloids and Tyrannoids. The Abysmian people would be distinct from the human El Doradans (descended from the Incans circa the 16th century), but may be connected to the human (or human-like) Tharkaris' race from X-Men Unlimited #49.

			*	*	*

Jan 20, 2008 8:57 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
Hey Col_Fury, will you be reviewing The Twelve #0? They have reprints of USA Comics #1 (Rockman), Daring Mystery Comics #2 (Laughing Mask) and Daring Mystery Comics #3 (Phantom Reporter).
<<<

I already analyzed USA Comics 1-4, and I plan to analyze Daring Mystery Comics... eventually. It's first Masterworks comes out this week, but I'll most likely do the Human Torch Masterworks vol 2 first. And some day I'll do All-Winners vol 2, as well. 

So technically no, I won't review the Twelve #0, but I kind of will in a roundabout way.  wolframbane wrote:
Black Widow (Claire Voyant) was revealed to have been active post-war in Marvel Knights: Spider-Man #9 (2004), and Ian McNee heard a rumor that Patsy Walker (Hellcat) is working with an old widow named Claire investigating occult crimes in Marvel Tarot (2007). I wonder how these may effect her being in stasis since 1945.A successor, probably, thanks to the Twelve.-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 23, 2008 10:03 am 
By lkseitz

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
ELECTRO/PROFESSOR PHILO ZOG 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/5
*TWELVE 1
<<<

Can I suggest that separate entries be made for the robot Electro and Prof. Zog? I suspect we'll see someone else controlling Electro before the series is over. Naturally, each entry should include a "See also" link to the other. (And can I speculate that maybe Zog helped lead the heroes into the Nazis' trap? JMS is obviously up to something with Electro/Zog.)

			*	*	*

Jan 23, 2008 12:51 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

lkseitz wrote:
>>>
Can I suggest that separate entries be made for the robot Electro and Prof. Zog? 
<<<

I had figured it would eventually come to that over here, but I was holding off until: 

lkseitz wrote:
>>>
I suspect we'll see someone else controlling Electro...
<<<

...or until Electro became self-aware. I think you're right though, in that we'll one of the two happen in the next eleven issues. I held off on separate listings, because until someone else takes over his controls, or until he controls himself, Electro is just a remote controlled toy car.(I think I compared him to an empty Iron Man suit in the link) 

If Electro becomes self-aware, I'll suggest one listing for Electro and a separate listing for Zog.(w/ a see also) If someone else just takes over his controls, and Electro doesn't become self-aware, I'll most likely suggest something like: 

ELECTRO/PROFESSOR PHILO ZOG
...
XYZ 27
XYZ 28
continued in Electro/Someone Else

ELECTRO/SOMEONE ELSE
continued from Electro/Professor Philo Zog
XYZ 29
XYZ 30
...

because Electro himself wouldn't be a character in that case, he would just be an appliance that doubles as a code-name. Kind of like Iron Man. But until we see which is going to happen, I'd rather hold off for now. 


lkseitz wrote:
>>>
And can I speculate that maybe Zog helped lead the heroes into the Nazis' trap? 
<<<

He's controlling the robot and projecting his image into Electro's goofy face plate.  As for leading them along with Excello, hmmnn...


lkseitz wrote:
>>>
JMS is obviously up to something with Electro/Zog.
<<<

I hope so, I like Electro! 

Oh, hey. Was your shop able to get you a copy of this & Hulk 1?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 23, 2008 10:48 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
[...]because Electro himself wouldn't be a character in that case, he would just be an appliance that doubles as a code-name. Kind of like Iron Man.
<<<

On the other hand, Red Ronin only has one entry despite having had multiple pilots.

			*	*	*

Jan 25, 2008 2:20 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Unless I'm missing something, Red Ronin is basically just a giant Iron Man suit, right? After quickly flipping through his appearances, I'll suggest: 


RED RONIN/ROB TAKIGUCHI 
GZILL 6
GZILL 7
GZILL 8
GZILL 9
GZILL 10
GZILL 11
GZILL 12
GZILL 13
GZILL 14
GZILL 15
GZILL 17

RED RONIN II/DR. EARL COWAN
A 197
A 198
TM:WY 1-FB
A 198
A 199

RED RONIN III/JOE KILMAN
SOLOA 15/2

RED RONIN IV/TSU FWON
W '96

I vaguely remember the Red Ronin robot showing up in an issue of Thunderbolts. Am I crazy?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 25, 2008 7:58 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
I vaguely remember the Red Ronin robot showing up in an issue of Thunderbolts. Am I crazy?
<<<

You're not crazy...at least about this.  A Red Ronin appeared in THUNDERBOLTS #107. Red Ronin also has appeared in flashback in CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT and in LONERS 5-6.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jan 26, 2008 8:56 am 
By lkseitz

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
SeanCurtin wrote:
>>>
On the other hand, Red Ronin only has one entry despite having had multiple pilots.
<<<

Unless I'm missing something, Red Ronin is basically just a giant Iron Man suit, right? After quickly flipping through his appearances, I'll suggest: 

[Chronologies snipped]
RED RONIN/ROB TAKIGUCHI 
RED RONIN II/DR. EARL COWAN
RED RONIN III/JOE KILMAN
RED RONIN IV/TSU FWON
<<<

The problem is that this implies the Ronins were somehow different, when in fact (except for the last one) they were the same, just with different people at the controls. The Shogun Warrior robots also have their own entries. (Full disclosure: I submitted them.) Personally, even though Combatra was piloted by a kid for one issue, I don't want to see that as a separate entry.

My feeling is that fans feel certain creations, even if not sentient, have a life of their own. Just take a look at the entries for Awesome Android (okay, he became sentient for a while), Devil Dinosaur, and Zabu.

And specifically regarding Electro, I read an entry by Jess Nevins (http://ratmmjess.tripod.com/ga/golde.html), saying Prof. Zog recruited others who could control Electro as well. If this is true -- you'd probably know better than I -- giving Electro multiple entries for each one could get very complicated.

Lee K. Seitz 

Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Jan 26, 2008 9:01 am 
By lkseitz

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Red Ronin also has appeared in flashback in CIVIL WAR: BATTLE DAMAGE REPORT and in LONERS 5-6.
<<<

Ooo, more appearances to collect. Thanks! Also, don't forget him in MARVEL MEGAMORPHS.

Lee K. Seitz 

Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Jan 26, 2008 6:12 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

lkseitz wrote:
>>>
The problem is that this implies the Ronins were somehow different, when in fact (except for the last one) they were the same, just with different people at the controls. 
<<<

That's a good point. Lemme think...


lkseitz wrote:
>>>
The Shogun Warrior robots also have their own entries. (Full disclosure: I submitted them.) Personally, even though Combatra was piloted by a kid for one issue, I don't want to see that as a separate entry.
<<<

Thinking...


lkseitz wrote:
>>>
My feeling is that fans feel certain creations, even if not sentient, have a life of their own. Just take a look at the entries for Awesome Android (okay, he became sentient for a while), Devil Dinosaur, and Zabu.
<<<

I can see where you're coming from here. However, Devil Dinosaur & Zabu are thinking creatures. Red Ronin doesn't think. BUT, Red Ronin in itself would be something fans would want to track, and splitting up the entries would be misleading. 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
A Red Ronin appeared in THUNDERBOLTS #107.
<<<

That's it! For one panel during the wellspring business. Hrm, I wonder who's piloting him? 

What about something like this: 

RED RONIN [ROBOT]
GZILL 6 (pilot: Rob Takiguchi)
GZILL 7
GZILL 8
GZILL 9
GZILL 10
GZILL 11
GZILL 12
GZILL 13
GZILL 14
GZILL 15
GZILL 17
A 197 (pilot: Dr. Earl Cowan)
A 198
TM:WY 1-FB
A 198
A 199
SOLOA 15/2 (pilot: Joe Kilman)
W '96 (pilot: Tsu Fwon)
TB 107 (pilot: ???)

I kind of like this idea. It makes it clear that it's the same robot but with different people controlling it. It also allows to include appearances where it's not clear who the pilot is, like in TB 107. I suppose the same idea could be used for the Shogun Warrior robots. Thoughts? 


lkseitz wrote:
>>>
I read an entry by Jess Nevins (http://ratmmjess.tripod.com/ga/golde.html), saying Prof. Zog recruited others who could control Electro as well. If this is true -- you'd probably know better than I -- giving Electro multiple entries for each one could get very complicated.
<<<

That would get complicated! 

My thinking is, how we handle Iron Man is a template for how to handle Electro. More or less, they're the same type of character. The difference is, the Electro robot is controlled from afar while the Iron Man suit is controlled from within.(usually) When Tony Stark quits being Iron Man, a new Iron Man entry is created.(Jim Rhodes, as an example) But if Tony just lends out an Iron Man suit for an issue or so, we don't create a new entry for that.(Bethany Cabe in IM 300, as an example. She's not Iron Man V, even though she used an Iron Man suit) I would think the same would go for Electro/Zog. He might lend out the robot for an issue, but he hasn't quit controlling Electro. 

Now, if Electro becomes sentient during the course of the Twelve... would we then split up Electro/Zog? It would be the same Electro robot that it always had been, but it's now revealed to think for itself.(if that's what happens) When Iron Man's suit did that, only the issues where it's sentient has a separate listing. Or would Electro then become comparable to Venom/Eddie Brock? 

This is what keeps me up at night. 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
You're not crazy...at least about this.  
<<<

You're right. THIS is why I'm crazy. 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jan 27, 2008 4:24 pm 
By lkseitz

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Oh, hey. Was your shop able to get you a copy of this & Hulk 1?
<<<

I forgot to answer this with the rest. Perhaps that's good, because at the time I answered, the answer was no. However, later that day I went to the shop and discovered two copies on the shelf, so I snagged one. Thanks for asking.

Lee K. Seitz 

Slowly adding insignificant characters to the MCP

			*	*	*

Feb 07, 2008 2:51 am 
By wolframbane

Other than outside references to Black Widow being acitve postwar, I also found another reference for the Witness acive postwar in OHOTMU:GA 2004 ("may have become ghostly being later in life"). Does anyone know which comics this is refering too?

			*	*	*

Feb 07, 2008 4:17 am 
By loki

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
Other than outside references to Black Widow being acitve postwar, I also found another reference for the Witness acive postwar in OHOTMU:GA 2004 ("may have become ghostly being later in life"). Does anyone know which comics this is refering too?
<<<

There was another Witness 
http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/w/witnesstimely.htm
Scan down the page. Less of a vigilante, more of a commentator. However the Twelve seems to have established that they are unlikely to be the one individual, so it looks like another may have taken up the name after the original disappeared.

			*	*	*

Feb 21, 2008 2:11 am 
By wolframbane

The "unnamed Colonel" in the story was named Colonel Dexter (according to his nametag), in case he becomes significant enough for an MCP lisiting later.

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Feb 27, 2008 2:12 am 
By wolframbane

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Sgt. Fury was in a coma at this time, but since the Howling Commandos appear here, and since Furys eye is bandaged, Ill have to grudgingly assume that somehow Fury was able to get out of his coma, appear shortly during the fall of Berlin, and then fall back into a coma to appear in the remainder of Peacemaker.
<<<

I have found another reference to Fury being active in 1945 during the fall of Berlin in Motormouth #5. I don't have the issue, could Col_Fury or anyone else clarify this? I originally got it from http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/howlingcommandos.htm and http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/mystechuk.htm

>>>
(Motormouth#5 (fb)) <1945> - As Berlin fell, Fury led the Howling Commandos in an assault upon a Mys-Tech facility where Dr. Kroh was raising Nazi soldiers from the dead. They shot Kroh, and set fire to his laboratory.
<<<

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Feb 27, 2008 2:27 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

A placement was suggested for it here, it just hasn't made it into the listings yet. (I have it on 30 March, 1945) I never did find a copy of that. Those Marvel UK books are hard to get! Well, outside of eBay, anyway.

-Daron Jensen

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Feb 27, 2008 2:53 am 
By wolframbane

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
A placement was suggested for it here, it just hasn't made it into the listings yet. (I have it on 30 March, 1945) I never did find a copy of that. Those Marvel UK books are hard to get! Well, outside of eBay, anyway.
<<<

Now here's a question. Did ole' saint Nick have an eyepatch in MM 5-FB ?!?

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Feb 27, 2008 4:11 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

I'd be willing to bet $5 that he didn't.

-Daron Jensen

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Feb 27, 2008 4:50 am 
By loki

You'd win that bet. Just checked the issue, no eyepatch.

			*	*	*

Feb 27, 2008 10:18 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks loki!

-Daron Jensen

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Mar 06, 2008 3:48 am 
By wolframbane

Also note that the name for Mr. E in TWELVE 1 of "Vince Jay" was wrong. It is actually Victor Jay, given in DARING MYSTERY COMICS 2/5 and properly used in TWELVE 3. Also note he also was revealed to really be Victor J. Goldstein in TWELVE 3.

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Apr 17, 2008 4:44 pm 
By wolframbane

Okay, Golden Age fans, I think there are a few characters that we missed in the big fight scene. Any GA experts, can you confirm any of these characters? And any placement suggestions?

TWELVE 1 (2). The woman in a black mask between Dynamic Man and Dum Dum Dugan.She is easily identifiable as Miss Fury.
http://www.geocities.com/jjnevins/fury.html

TWELVE 1 (3:1). The guy with a green costume, red belt, yellow cape, boots and gloves, to the left of Bucky. Only his back is seen.

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Apr 17, 2008 8:58 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

That really looks like the Young Avenger's costume, but he's not wearing a mask like the Young Avenger was in his only other appearance in USA COMICS 1/5. 

I suppose the art could have been miscolored in TWELVE 1, giving him an exposed neck and brown hair with the rest in shadow, or he could have just taken the mask off. 

But yeah, that looks like the Young Avenger to me. And good catch on Miss Fury!-Daron Jensen

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Apr 17, 2008 10:00 pm 
By wolframbane

If it is possibly miscolored, I suppose it could also be Marvel Boy, particularly with the swashbuckler boots. I am going to look through http://www.geocities.com/copperagecomics/index.html and see if I can turn up anything. Thanks Colfury

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Apr 17, 2008 10:11 pm 
By wolframbane

This appearance of Miss Fury seems to bring her into the Marvel Universe. I do not think she has appeared in the MU since her initial appearance in MISS FURY 1-8, published by Timely from 1942-1946, and these stories were themselves reprints from earlier newspaper strips which started in 1941 and ran to 1952. The character would not appear again in new stories until the 1990s with Miss Fury #1-4 and Protectors #10-20, being the grandaughter of the original and published by Malibu Comics. These stories had characters which were considered "public domain" and occur in the "Genesis Universe". Although Marvel later bought Malibu and even published comics from its Ultraverse line as an alternate universe in Marvel continuity, the Genesis Universe was not connected to it and I don't know if it is owned by Marvel.

For placement of the Earth-616 Miss Fury, I suggest:

MISS FURY/MARLA DRAKE/"BLACK FURY"
MISS FURY 1
MISS FURY 2
MISS FURY 3
MISS FURY 4
MISS FURY 5
MISS FURY 6
MISS FURY 7
MISS FURY 8
TWELVE 1

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Apr 17, 2008 10:29 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

If it were Marvel Boy, either one, then the entire costume would be miscolored... and both versions wear a mask. 

If it's Young Avenger, then either his head is miscolored or he's not wearing his mask. The rest of of the costume is a match.-Daron Jensen

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Apr 18, 2008 12:47 am 
By wolframbane

Hey Colfury. I think your placement for Red Raven may be a bit off. You have it placed right after RED RAVEN 1.

RED RAVEN 
RED RAVEN 1
*TWELVE 1
UX 44-FB-BTS
SUB-M 26-FB-BTS
T@ 12/2-FB
UX 44-FB
T@ 12/2-FB
SUB-M 26-FB
SUB-M 26-FB
UX 44-FB
M/PRM 29
INV 6
M/PRM 30
INV 35-FB
INV 36
INV 37
INV 38
M/CP 160/4
INV 38
SUB-M 26-FB
UX 44-FB
SUB-M 26-FB
UX 44-FB
...

The problem is that his appearance in TWELVE 1 occurs in 1945, but your placement has it well before the INV series in 1942. I would suggest it occurs between INV 38 (circa 1942) and SUB-M 26-FB and UX 44-FB (after he returns to Bird Island after WWII).

RED RAVEN 
RED RAVEN 1
UX 44-FB-BTS
SUB-M 26-FB-BTS
T@ 12/2-FB
UX 44-FB
T@ 12/2-FB
SUB-M 26-FB
SUB-M 26-FB
UX 44-FB
M/PRM 29
INV 6
M/PRM 30
INV 35-FB
INV 36
INV 37
INV 38
M/CP 160/4
INV 38
*TWELVE 1
SUB-M 26-FB
UX 44-FB
...

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Apr 18, 2008 10:46 am 
By ShadZ

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
[[Miss Fury]] would not appear again in new stories until the 1990s with Miss Fury #1-4 and Protectors #10-20, being the grandaughter of the original and published by Malibu Comics. These stories had characters which were considered "public domain" and occur in the "Genesis Universe". 
<<<

Just to clairify: The Genesis universe is built on public domain superheroes, mostly from Centaur Comics. But Miss Fury is apparently not in the public domain; her appearances at Malibu were licensed from Tarp Mills's heirs.


wolframbane wrote:
>>>
Although Marvel later bought Malibu and even published comics from its Ultraverse line as an alternate universe in Marvel continuity, the Genesis Universe was not connected to it and I don't know if it is owned by Marvel.
<<<

It is. The universe is mentioned briefly in the back of the Alternate Universes handbook.

ShadZ

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Apr 18, 2008 12:50 pm 
By wolframbane

Goodness you are right. According to the handbook it is Earth-1136. I just wonder if the Miss Fury seen is from Earth-616 or Earth-1136?

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Apr 19, 2008 2:24 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
The problem is that his appearance in TWELVE 1 occurs in 1945, but your placement has it well before the INV series in 1942. I would suggest it occurs between INV 38 (circa 1942) and SUB-M 26-FB and UX 44-FB (after he returns to Bird Island after WWII). 
<<<

Good catch!

-Daron Jensen

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Apr 19, 2008 2:44 am 
By ShadZ

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
Goodness you are right. According to the handbook it is Earth-1136. I just wonder if the Miss Fury seen [in The Twelve 1] is from Earth-616 or Earth-1136?
<<<

Interesting question... I was first going to say that it must be the Earth-616 Miss Fury, because why would we assume inter dimensional travel with no evidence? But now I see your point. Protectors 10 revealed the Miss Fury Comic strip (and the 90s miniseries) happened on Earth-1136. And since the 1940s Miss Fury series was just reprints of the comic strip, they must belong on Earth-1136 too.

So, if the Miss Fury in The Twelve 1 is from Earth-616, this would be her first appearance, But if she is from Earth-1136, then she is an existing character (with an unexplained universe jump). So which is worse -- assuming dimensional travel, or assuming a brand new Miss Fury?

ShadZ

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Apr 19, 2008 6:58 am 
By Somebody
Director

Now, this will sound like semantics, but... is there any evidence that the Miss Fury comic DIDN'T occur in the MU *as well as* the PH Earth?

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Apr 20, 2008 1:04 am 
By wolframbane

In TWELVE 1, the real names of most of the heroes were given. The names for Phantom Reporter, Mister E, Dynamic Man, Fiery Mask, Laughing Mask, Black Widow and Master Mind Excello were the same as the names given during their Golden Age stories (although Mister E was mistakenly mentioned as Vince Jay in TWELVE 1, but this was corrected as Victor Jay in TWELVE 3 (and subsequently Victor J. Goldstein). Rockman and Electro don;t have real names, and Witness wasn't talking.

Blue Blade was given as Roy Chambers. Was this mentioned in his first appearance in USA COMICS 5/5?

Captain Wonder was given as Professor Steve Jordan. According to some sites, such as http://internationalhero.co.uk/c/captainwonder.htm some say his name was only given as Professor Jordan, some as Jeff Jordan. Does anyone know which is correct? Also it should be noted in the flashback in TWELVE 2, his wife calls him Earl.

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Apr 20, 2008 9:02 pm 
By ShadZ

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Now, this will sound like semantics, but... is there any evidence that the Miss Fury comic DIDN'T occur in the MU *as well as* the PH Earth?
<<<

AFAIK, there is no hard evidence that the 1940's Miss Fury comic happened on Earth-616 (by hard evidence, I mean things like Roy Thomas saying it did in an Invaders letter column, or Capitan America guest-starring in a Miss Fury story). Unless her appearance in The Twelve #1 was supposed to be that hard evidence...

There is some "soft" evidence that the Miss Fury comic may be Earth-616 -- like the fact that Timely did publish it, and nothing about the stories conflicts with Earth-616 cosmology (AFAIK). But I think all that soft evidence is wiped out by the fact that it was a licensed title, and the general presumption* is that licensed titles are not Earth-616 unless there is hard evidence.

*NOTE: This is MY general presumption. I don't know if the Chronology Project board actually shares it...ShadZ

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Apr 20, 2008 9:24 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I'm not suggesting (unless further evidence is presented) listing the whole of Miss Fury's backstory right now. My point is that we have entries for MU-native versions of Clark Kent, Lois Lane (reporters) and Hal Jordan (mental patient convinced he has a power ring) amongst others (not to mention the slightly suspicious Fastforward/"Buried Alien"...). It wouldn't be a stretch to list her as what she's clearly intended to be unless it's shown to be impossible. I don't see off the top of my head any reason why that should be the case.

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Apr 20, 2008 9:54 pm 
By SeanCurtin

ShadZ wrote:
>>>
There is some "soft" evidence that the Miss Fury comic may be Earth-616 -- like the fact that Timely did publish it, and nothing about the stories conflicts with Earth-616 cosmology (AFAIK). But I think all that soft evidence is wiped out by the fact that it was a licensed title, and the general presumption* is that licensed titles are not Earth-616 unless there is hard evidence.
<<<

I think the fact that Miss Fury has now appeared in a Marvel Universe comic would count as "hard evidence" (assuming that that was her in THE TWELVE). I really don't see why we ought to assume that Miss Fury traveled from another universe to appear in THE TWELVE; the only evidence that Miss Fury isn't a MU character is her appearance in a comic that wasn't even published by Marvel. Dark Horse's Conan comics don't invalidate the MU-canonicity of Marvel's Conan comics.

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May 01, 2008 1:05 am 
By wolframbane

Black Widow and Electro are apparently part of an as yet unseen GA era group, which also includes Captain Terror, Silver Scorpion, Black Avenger and Challenger, according to the new Invaders/Avengers series. http://www.comicboards.com/invaders/att ... rs-001.jpg
http://www.comicboards.com/invaders/att ... rs-001.jpg
http://www.comicboards.com/invaders/att ... rs-002.jpg

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May 01, 2008 2:17 am 
By loki

Perhaps, perhaps not - there's lots of speculation online that the group we see in the Sketchbook are the modern-day Avengers disguised as Golden Age heroes.

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Thread 20

Subject: ALIAS 9

May 1, 2008 12:09 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

You know, its funny that THIS is the only issue of ALIAS missing from the MCP

ALIAS #9
July, 2002

Appearances: 
Jessica Jones, Malcolm Powder, Edwin Jarvis, Rick Jones?

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg18
Jessica calls the Avengers to let them know she found Rick Jones, but gets the answering machine. After leaving a message about Rick thinking hes being chased by Skrulls she goes back to her office to check her messages. She dozes off after making contact with a man shes trying to trap, and wakes up to Malcolm answering her phone. It turns out to be Jarvis, who is returning the message she left earlier. He explains that Rick is in Los Angeles and the Rick shes encountered is an imposter. She kicks Malcolm out and meets Rick in the park, where hes back with his wife. She then meets the man she was tracking and asks him questions about celebrities.(hes a psychiatrist) 
Pg19-pg22pn5-FB (between pg15 & pg16 of ALIAS 8)
Jessica and Rick chat about life with superheroes. 
Pg22pn6(of 6)
Jessica curses herself for being fooled. 

References: 
So last issue, Jessica tracks down the missing Rick Jones, to find a paranoid man who is convinced that the Skrulls are after him. He absolutely doesnt want to talk to the Avengers, but is willing to talk to the Fantastic Four. When Roberta(the robot receptionist) doesnt let them in, Jessica says shes calling the Avengers and Rick takes off. 

Now, this Rick was explained away as an impersonator, but this explanation was offered by Jarvis. And knowing what we now know from Secret Invasion #1, I wouldnt be surprised if it turns out that Skrulls were really after this guy. Did Rick not want to talk to the Avengers because they would be able to tell he wasnt the real Rick? Or because he knew they had already been infiltrated? And how long has 'Jarvis' been screening calls for something just like this? I guess we'll find out! 

Also, the Jarvis here says he's calling on behalf of Captain America, but I'm not sure how much weight we should put on that, given the circumstances. 

Of course, the real Rick Jones was tied up in the Captain Marvel series at the time. A possible answer to that is the Skrulls thought the impersonator Rick was the real deal, and they were after him not knowing what the real one was up to. OR, they knew this guy was an impersonator and wanted him eliminated so the idea of impostors didnt get around too much. Time will tell!

But there you go; Bendis has been saying this Skrull thing has been planned out for years, and heres a the Skrulls are after me story back in 2002. 

In the meantime, though: 

JONES, JESSICA (nee CAMBELL)

ALIAS 8 (1-15)
*ALIAS 9-FB
ALIAS 8 (16-21)
*ALIAS 9
ALIAS 10


POWDER, MALCOLM
ALIAS 6
*ALIAS 9
ALIAS 17


JARVIS, EDWIN

A3 55
JLA/A 3
T2 34
*ALIAS 9
A3 56


?JONES, RICK?
ALIAS 7
ALIAS 8 (1-15)
ALIAS 9-FB
ALIAS 8 (16-21)
ALIAS 9

-Daron Jensen

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May 1, 2008 09:14 am 
By Somebody
Director

I don't have this issue (or any other issue of Alias) to double-check, but wouldn't this have been during the "aged Rick" story in Captain Marvel? Just for corroboration

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May 1, 2008 08:02 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Alias 9 was published the same month as Captain Marvel 33, the issue where Marlo realizes she has the hots for Moonstone. Paul B. has Alias 9 about a month before Captain Marvel 32 on his Calendar. Rick was de-aged and regained his arm in Captain Marvel 26. 

And then a couple of months later, the book was re-booted as part of the U-Decide! contest.

-Daron Jensen

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Thread 21

Subject: Brotherhood 5

May 01, 2008 9:06 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Brotherhood #5
November, 2001

Appearances: 
Malon Reeves, Bela, Bryson, Mr. Reeves(Malons dad), Marshal, Fiona, 

Synopsis: 
Bela tortures Malon, but Bryson puts a stop to it. Marshal introduces himself to Mr. Reeves. Marshal captures Bela and Fiona, and tortures them for information on X. This results in Bela losing his other hand, and Fiona dying. Bryson takes Malon for a drive, and opens her eyes as to some facts about her father and uncle. They break into her Uncle (Dr. Perot's) lab, where they find the remains of gruesome experiments performed on mutants fetuses. Malon probably kills her uncle off panel, and definitely torches his lab. 

References: 
The day after BHOOD 4. Full moon. 

Well, that explains why this issue isnt in the MCP; none of the characters that have a listing from this series appears here. So Ill just suggest a chronology for Malon, since she has a first AND last name: 

REEVES, MALON
BHOOD 4
BHOOD 5
BHOOD 6
BHOOD 7
BHOOD 8
BHOOD 9

Yes, I copied & pasted from Paul B.s Calendar. It was painful enough just to verify character appearances Im not even sure why I own these. It might have been the Manco art, but still. This was one bad series.

-Daron Jensen

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Thread 22

Subject: NOVA (french serie) #25-26 (Silver Surfer story)

May 02, 2008 11:08 pm 
By Giant Ant

As promised, here is my analysis for the french Silver Surfer story in NOVA #25-26 published by Lug editions in 1980. Please keep in mind that this is my first analysis and that English is not my prime language. If you have any questions or if anything isn't clear enough, feel free to ask. I won't bite.

First of all, let me give you some context NOVA was a reprint serie by Lug (and later Semic) editions that lasted 233 issues and was published from February 1978 to May 1998. Each issue usually reprinted 3 to 4 different comics. AFAIK, this story is the only original material with Marvel characters published by Lug/Semic.

In NOVA #25, the first story is a reprint of Spectacular Spider-Man #28, the second is the Silver Surfer one and the third is a reprint of Nova #24.

In NOVA #26, the first story is a reprint of Spectacular Spider-Man #29, the second is the Silver Surfer one and the third is a reprint of Nova #25.

If you want more informations on French reprints, this website is great ; http://www.comicsvf.com

I recommend you look at the Lug Editions cover gallery ( http://www.comicsvf.com/fe/77.php ) for some beautiful original painted covers.

On to the analysis now


NOVA (French comic) #25/2

Published : February 1980

Written by J.K. Melwyn Nash, Drawn by Jean-Yves Mitton (with the autorisation of the Marvel Comics Group)

Appearances by Silver Surfer, Shalla-Bal, Galactus, Mephisto, Belzebuth (demon of Mephisto), Astaroth (demon of Mephisto), many astronauts working for "Transworld Meteo" (is this new?), many members of the UN (none are named).

The following synopsis (and the one for #26) is taken almost verbatim from the Alter Ego article ( http://www.twomorrows.com/alterego/arti ... urfer.html ) :

The Silver Surfer detects a threat to Earth--the asteroid Ceres has mysteriously changed its orbit and is on a collision course with our world. Mankind doesn't realize it because humans lack the cosmic awareness of the Surfer. The only folks to find out (in a Transworld Meteo space shuttle) die when Ceres' gravity waves send their ship out of orbit.
The Surfer realizes that only Zenn-La's anti-matter-based "Weapon Supreme" (from S.S. #1) can destroy Ceres. He begs Galactus to let him go through the barrier which the space god created to keep the Surfer on Earth. Galactus refuses, but points out that when Ceres destroys our world, the Surfer will be freed; all he is to do is wait! Nevertheless, the Surfer vows to try to save his adopted planet. 
The Surfer tries to alert the United Nations, but is scorned and hunted after he bursts into the General Assembly. He decides men can be reborn only if they die in a state of grace, so he decides to alleviate mankind's suffering until the catastrophe comes. He sweeps across the world, transmuting molecules into manna for starving masses, bringing rain to parched deserts, healing the sick in hospitals, all with his transmutational powers. (Clearly, Navarro had chosen to eschew super-hero violence to concentrate on the morality of the Surfer.) 
All this goodness naturally arouses the enmity of Mephisto, who was looking forward to the arrival of four billion souls of sinners in his realm, thereby defeating the plan for Earth of his adversary (God). So Mephisto dispatches his demons Belzebuth and Astaroth (on spectral motorcycles!) to counterbalance the Surfer and to spread evil on Earth. Which they do, in spite of the Surfer's admonitions.
In a scene reminiscent of the "Temptation of Christ" sequence in Silver Surfer #3, Mephisto tries to bargain with the Surfer. He will free him, if the Surfer lets the humans die as they are. The Surfer naturally refuses. Then Mephisto offers a trade: the Surfer's soul against Earth's four billion. But the Surfer rejects that, too.
He returns to Earth to help fight the tsunami caused by Ceres' approach, but is instead blamed for it. Mankind still does not realize that it is doomed. The Surfer is struck down by lightning. (Mephisto's doing, or just dumb luck? The story never says.) Fallen, he is stoned and buried (except for his outstretched hand) beneath rubble by an uncomprehending mob. He appears to be dead. The doomed humans shamble off to await Doomsday--while the gleaming surfboard hovers above the debris.

References : The Silver Surfer is still trapped on earth because of Galactus' barrier and he knows Mephisto. There are leafs in the trees in New York. It is said in the first part of the story that Ceres will hit Earth "in 3 days and a half, on Monday at 12h24:36". 




NOVA (French comic) #26/2

Published : March 1980

Written by J.K. Melwyn Nash, Drawn by Jean-Yves Mitton (with the autorisation of the Marvel Comics Group)

Appearances by Silver Surfer, Jimmy Carter, Leonid Brezhev (Soviet premier), Shalla-Bal (and others unnamed Zenn-Lanians), leader of the CIA (unnamed)

Synopsis : The planetoid Ceres is getting ever closer to Earth. An almost unrecognizable President Jimmy Carter talks to a more recognizable Soviet premier Leonid Brezhnev. They decide not to tell their populaces the truth. Carter learns that the Surfer knew of Ceres' coming. The authorities go looking for him, but his body is gone.
For, meanwhile, a mysterious light (whose source is never revealed) shines down from the stars, takes the Surfer (board and all), revives him, and transports him past Galactus' barrier to Zenn-La. There the Surfer meets with Shalla-Bal, but he tells her they have no time to spend together. He must obtain the Weapon Supreme, which is kept in a space station in orbit.
With Shalla-Bal's help, he steals the Weapon and escapes in the ship that carries it. She is arrested for treason. The Surfer's ship escapes the Zenn-La fleet by going into hyperspace. He rematerializes it near the Earth and blasts Ceres out of the sky in the nick of time.
But the Surfer pays a price, of course. His ship is destroyed by the explosion, and he and his board topple down toward the Earth. He recovers, only to find that the uncomprehending New Yorkers (and presumably everyone else) blame him for the devastation caused by the space debris from the obliterated planetoid. The American and Soviet leaders plan to grab the credit and usher in a new era of world cooperation, and don't want the Surfer to interfere. The leader of the CIA comes up with the idea of blaming the Surfer and offering a reward for his capture. 
Someone recognizes the Surfer (wearing a hat and trenchcoat) and tries to turn him in. The Surfer flees into the sky, but finds that he is again trapped within Galactus' barrier. He blames God for having given him a taste of freedom and then abandoning him. His final line of dialogue is a paraphrase of Christ's cry from the Cross: "Why have you forsaken me?"

References : The Silver Surfer is still trapped on earth because of Galactus' barrier. It seems to be the first time he returns to Zenn-La (and to Shalla-Bal) since he was transformed into Galactus' herald (upon his return, the populace yells stuff like "Norrin Radd, the exiled", "Galactus gave him his liberty" and "he's finally back to his own people", and Shalla-Bal says "My love, my love, you're back"). Sahlla-Bal is arrested for high treason. The story ends with the Earth populace mad at the Surfer, and the Surfer pretty mad at the humans' incomprehensibility and inhospitability. 

NOVA #24 reprinted Silver Surfer vol.1 #17, #27 to 32 reprinted the Stan Lee/Jack Kirby graphic novel from 1978, and #33 reprinted Silver Surfer vol.1 #18. 
Would it be possible to place the French story between #17 and 18?

			*	*	*

May 03, 2008 5:27 am 
By Enda80

http://www.captaincomics.us/forums/inde ... ic=2131.30

Shalla Bal's appearances create granny knots.

At first I was inclined to dismiss Silver Surfer #129 as a time travel story (the present-day Silver Surfer travels back to the past), but he encounters an earlier version of himself while there (while then?), so this story must be taken into account. The present-day Surfer discovers Galactus and his own past self floating unconscious in space in the vicinity of Zenn-La, victims of The Other, the alien race from Silver Surfer #-1, which pre-dates this story (placing it no later than early 1947?). Surprisingly, the present-day Surfer discovers that Zenn-La has been destroyed by The Other and Shalla-Bal has been killed. (It is unclear why Galactus and the past-Surfer have returned to Zenn-La in the first place, but the implication is that it has something to do with The Other and Silver Surfer #-1).

After Galactus and the past-Surfer recover from The Others attack (in #130), they journey to the surface of Zenn-La where past-Surfers memories briefly resurface and Galactus wipes them again. After that, Galactus decides, I could devour the remains of this world  there is enough living energy remaining to satiate me  but I will not. Because Galactus vowed that Zenn-La would be spared when he made his pact with Norrin Radd and he failed to avert its destruction, Galactus uses his stored energy reserves to create the illusion that Zenn-La has not been destroyed, because when (his) herald is released from servitude, he must have a home to return to!

My head really hurts. 

That means that after the Silver Surfer betrayed Galactus (in FF #50) and Galactus returned to Zenn-La (as revealed in the Lee/Byrne/Palmer SS one-shot), he devoured a planet of illusions, and every appearance of Shalla Ball ever (except the flashback in the original SS #1) has been an illusion! (Although that would render moot the question of how long-lived the Zenn-Lavians are as a race.)

One of the Handbooks, the FF one, called this story into question without actually dismissing it.

			*	*	*

May 03, 2008 12:53 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Giant Ant wrote:
>>>
Please keep in mind that this is my first analysis and that English is not my prime language. 
<<<

You did better than MY first analysis! Thank you, Giant Ant!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Subject: Elektra: Root of Evil 1-4

May 04, 2008 5:43 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Elektra: Root of Evil #1
March, 1995

Appearances: 
Elektra, Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Col. Nick Fury, Tekagi, Daito, Osaku, Genkotsu, Feruze, Doka, Stone

Synopsis: 
Elektra kills a group of mercenaries and is interrupted by Daredevil. After a quick chat she takes off. Elsewhere, Tekagi and the Snakeroot find Daito dead(he killed himself) and their sword rusting. Later, Elektra chats with Stone. Elsewhere, Tekagi convinces the Sankeroot that they need to restore their sword by killing a few good people. Later, Elektra gets into a fight in a casino. Nick Fury appears and gives her a list of contacts so she can put together her own group of mercenaries. 

References: 
Published the same month as Daredevil 338, Daredevils in his armored look of the time. 

Elektra: Root of Evil #2
April, 1995

Appearances: 
Elektra, Tekagi, Osaku, Genkotsu, Feruze, Doka

Synopsis: 
Elektra assembles her team and the snakeroot attacks their first victim. 

Elektra: Root of Evil #3
May, 1995

Appearances: 
Elektra, Tekagi, Osaku, Genkotsu, Feruze, Doka

Synopsis: 
The snakeroot kills their first victim, as well as Elektras entire team. The snakeroot then kills their second victim. 

Elektra: Root of Evil #4
June, 1995

Appearances: 
Elektra, Tekagi, Osaku, Genkotsu, Feruze, Doka, Omikami

Synopsis: 
Elektra prevents the snakeroot from killing their last victim by killing them instead. 

References: 
Elektra visits the old lady who made her first sai, just before killing everyone off. She doesnt have a chronology, and Im pretty sure she doesnt appear anywhere else, I just thought Id throw that in. Also, I wont bother listing chronologies for Elektras team from issues 2 & 3, since they all die within an issue anyway. 

Some placement suggestions for the current stuff: 

DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK

DD 337
*E: ROE 1
PPTSS 218


ELEKTRA/ELEKTRA NATCHIOS

DD 332
*E: ROE 1
*E: ROE 2
*E: ROE 3
*E: ROE 4
DCVM 1


FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH

ST3
*E: ROE 1
H2 426


TEKAGI

DD 325
*E: ROE 1
*E: ROE 2
*E: ROE 3
*E: ROE 4 

DAITO

DD@ 10
*E: ROE 1

OSAKU/KARLA 

DD@ 10/2
*E: ROE 1
*E: ROE 2
*E: ROE 3
*E: ROE 4 

GENKOTSU

DD 325
*E: ROE 1
*E: ROE 2
*E: ROE 3
*E: ROE 4

STONE

DD 326
*E: ROE 1
DD:N 2
DD:N 3

And now, the FlashBacks!

E: ROE 1 (2-3)-FB
Elektra is almost 16. Shes attending a party of her fathers. 
-app: Elektra, Hugo Natchios

E: ROE 1 (17-18)-FB
Elektra is 12. Shes climing a snowy mountain looking for the Chaste, and finds them. 
-app: Elektra, Stick, Stone

E: ROE 2 (2-4)-FB
Elektra is 12. She completes a training task and finds Stick meditating. After reliving some memories shes chastised by Stick for reaching out to him. 
-app: Elektra, Stick

E: ROE 2 (3:4)-FB-FB
Stick leaves his wife and child when he commits himself to the Chaste. 
-app: Stick

E: ROE 2 (4:2)-FB-FB
Drunk, Hugo Natchios complains to his son Orestez that his wife is a dirty slut. 
-app: Hugo Natchios, Orestez Natchios

E: ROE 2 (12:4-12:5)-FB
Tekagi & Elektra, both members of the Hand, chat about the Snakeroot. 
-app: Elektra, Tekagi

E: ROE 2 (13:1-13:2)-FB
The snakeroots sword is forged. 
-app: a monk named Tomonori

E: ROE 2 (19-20)-FB
Elektra is 19. Elektra tries to return to the Chaste now that her father is dead and things are over between her & Matt, but Stick refuses to let her back in. 
-app: Elektra, Stick, Stone, Star, Shaft, Flame, Claw, Wing

E: ROE 3 (1-5)-FB
Elektra is 9. A group of bad guys try to kidnap Elektra, but her brother Orestez kills them and returns her to her father. He suggests she take training in the martial arts to defend herself. 
-app: Elektra, Orestez Natchios, Hugo Natchios

E: ROE 3 (18-21)-FB
Elektra is 22. With a group of Hand ninjas, Elektra has just committed her first murder. She tries to bathe in a nearby lake but Tekagi is watching. Elektra mentally commands the other ninjas to kill him, but he overpowers them all. 
-app: Elektra, Tekagi

E: ROE 3 (25:4-25:5)-FB
Tekagi joins Elektra in the lake and they get their freak on. 
-app: Elektra, Tekagi

E: ROE 3 (31:1-31:3)-FB
Elektra is 12. Stick gives Elektra a difficult task for looking into his head. 
-app: Elektra, Stick

E: ROE 4 (1-5)-FB
Elektra is ten. Elektra finds her mothers grave and asks her father about her. 
-app: Elektra, Hugo Natchios

E: ROE 4 (3:2-3:5)-FB-FB
Christina Natchios parties while Hugo drinks. He tells Orestez about it, and orestez decides to kill his mother. 
-app: Hugo Natchios, Christina Natchios, Orestez Natchios

E: ROE 4 (4:1-4:2)-FB
Repeated scene from E: A, but its revealed that Orestez hired the people who killed Christina. 

E: ROE 4 (4:4-4:6)-FB-FB
Orestez feels awful for his dad getting caught in the crossfire. Meanwhile, the newborn Elektra is presented to her father. 
-app: Elektra, Hugo Natchios, Orestez Natchios

E: ROE 4 (31:6-31:8)-FB
Elektra and Tekagi seal the deal in the lake. 
-app: Elektra, Tekagi

Heres the same stuff, but in chronological order: 

E: ROE 2 (13:1-13:2)-FB
The snakeroots sword is forged. 
-app: a monk named Tomonori

E: ROE 4 (3:2-3:5)-FB-FB
Christina Natchios parties while Hugo drinks. He tells Orestez about it, and orestez decides to kill his mother. 
-app: Hugo Natchios, Christina Natchios, Orestez Natchios

E: ROE 2 (4:2)-FB-FB
Drunk, Hugo Natchios complains to his son Orestez that his wife is a dirty slut. 
-app: Hugo Natchios, Orestez Natchios

E: ROE 4 (4:4-4:6)-FB-FB
Orestez feels awful for his dad getting caught in the crossfire. Meanwhile, the newborn Elektra is presented to her father. 
-app: Elektra, Hugo Natchios, Orestez Natchios

E: ROE 2 (3:4)-FB-FB
Stick leaves his wife and child when he commits himself to the Chaste. 
-app: Stick

E: ROE 3 (1-5)-FB
Elektra is 9. A group of bad guys try to kidnap Elektra, but her brother Orestez kills them and returns her to her father. 
-app: Elektra, Orestez Natchios, Hugo Natchios

E: ROE 4 (1-5)-FB
Elektra is ten. Elektra finds her mothers grave and asks her father about her. 
-app: Elektra, Hugo Natchios

E: ROE 1 (17-18)-FB
Elektra is 12. Shes climing a snowy mountain looking for the Chaste, and finds them. 
-app: Elektra, Stick, Stone

E: ROE 2 (2-4)-FB
Elektra is 12. She completes a training task and finds Stick meditating. After reliving some memories shes chastised by Stick for reaching out to him. 
-app: Elektra, Stick

E: ROE 3 (31:1-31:3)-FB
Elektra is 12. Stick gives Elektra a difficult task for looking into his head. 
-app: Elektra, Stick

E: ROE 1 (2-3)-FB
Elektra is almost 16. Shes attending a party of her fathers. 
-app: Elektra, Hugo Natchios

E: ROE 2 (19-20)-FB
Elektra is 19. Elektra tries to return to the Chaste now that her father is dead and things are over between her & Matt, but Stick refuses to let her back in. 
-app: Elektra, Stick, Stone, Star, Shaft, Flame, Claw, Wing

E: ROE 3 (18-21)-FB
Elektra is 22. With a group of Hand ninjas, Elektra has just committed her first murder. She tries to bathe in a nearby lake but Tekagi is watching. Elektra mentally commands the other ninjas to kill him, but he overpowers them all. 
-app: Elektra, Tekagi

E: ROE 3 (25:4-25:5)-FB
Tekagi joins Elektra in the lake and they get their freak on. 
-app: Elektra, Tekagi

E: ROE 4 (31:6-31:8)-FB
Elektra and Tekagi seal the deal in the lake. 
-app: Elektra, Tekagi

E: ROE 2 (12:4-12:5)-FB
Tekagi & Elektra, both members of the Hand, chat about the Snakeroot. 
-app: Elektra, Tekagi

All right. This is what Elektras early chronology looks like at the moment: 

ELEKTRA/ELEKTRA NATCHIOS 
E:A 1-FB
ELEK2 35-FB
ELEK 2-FB
{DD 168 (1 - 4)-FB}
ELEK -1 (1 - 3:3)
DD 168 (5 - 9:1)-FB
DD2 37-FB
ELEK -1 pg. 5+
DD 168 (9:2)-FB
DD 190-FB
E:A 1-FB
DD 190-FB
E:A 1-FB
DD 190-FB
E:A 1-FB
E:ROE 3-FB
BIZADV 28
E:A 1-FB
E:A 1

First, {DD 168 (1 - 4)-FB} is not a Flashback, its a current day portion of the story and should be removed. 

DD 168 (5 - 9:1)-FB should be DD 168 (6 - 9:1)-FB. 

ELEK -1 pg. 5+ should be ELEK -1 (5-22). 

DD 168 (9:2)-FB should be DD 168 (9:2-12:14)-FB. 

Now, Root of Evil requires us to move some things around. As its currently listed, Elektra goes to college first, and then is trained by Stick & the Chaste, and then is kicked out and she joins the Hand. According to Root of Evil, shes trained by Stick & the Chaste, THEN goes to college, returns to the Chaste but is refused, then she joins the Hand. 

What happens in ELEK 2-FB? I dont own this issue, so for now Ill keep it right before her college days. If this is wrong, please let me know. 

Some juggling:

ELEKTRA/ELEKTRA NATCHIOS 
E: A 1 (1-4)-FB
*E: ROE 4 (4:4-4:6)-FB-FB
E: A 1 (5-6)-FB
ELEK2 35-FB
*E: ROE 3 (1-5)-FB
E: A 1 (8)-FB
*E: ROE 4 (1-5)-FB
DD 190 (1-3)-FB
*E: ROE 1 (17-18)-FB
DD 190 (4)-FB
E: A 1 (9-11)-FB
*E: ROE 2 (2-4)-FB
*E: ROE 3 (31:1-31:3)-FB
DD 190 (5-6)-FB
E: A 1 (13)-FB
*E: ROE 1 (2-3)-FB
???ELEK 2-FB???
ELEK -1 (1-3:3)
DD 168 (6-9:1)-FB
DD2 37-FB
ELEK -1 (5-22)
DD 168 (9:2-12:14)-FB
*E: ROE 2 (19-20)-FB
DD 190 (7-12)-FB
E: A 1 (18-20)-FB
E: ROE 3 (18-21)-FB
*E: ROE 3 (25:4-25:5)-FB
*E: ROE 4 (31:6-31:8)-FB
*E: ROE 2 (12:4-12:5)-FB
BIZADV 28
E: A 1 (22-27)-FB
E: A 1

And some placement suggestions: 

NATCHIOS, HUGO
E: ROE 4 (3:2-3:5)-FB-FB
E: ROE 2 (4:2)-FB-FB
E: A 1 (1-4)-FB
E: ROE 4 (4:4-4:6)-FB-FB
E: A 1 (5-6)-FB
ELEK2 35-FB-BTS
E: ROE 3 (1-5)-FB
E: ROE 4 (1-5)-FB
E: ROE 1 (2-3)-FB
DD 168-FB

NATCIOS, ORESTEZ
E: ROE 4 (3:2-3:5)-FB-FB
E: ROE 2 (4:2)-FB-FB
E: A 1-FB-BTS
E: ROE 4 (4:4-4:6)-FB-FB
E: ROE 3 (1-5)-FB

NATCHIOS, CHRISTINA
E: ROE 4 (3:2-3:5)-FB-FB
E: A 1-FB

TEKAGI
*E: ROE 3 (18-21)-FB
*E: ROE 3 (25:4-25:5)-FB
*E: ROE 4 (31:6-31:8)-FB
*E: ROE 2 (12:4-12:5)-FB
DD 323-FB
{DD 319}
...

STAR 
*E: A 1-FB
*E: ROE 2-FB
DD 296
DD:FFG
DD 326

SHAFT 
*E: A 1-FB
*E: ROE 2-FB
DD 187
DD 188
DD 189

FLAME
*E: A 1-FB
*E: ROE 2-FB 
DD 296
DD 320
DD:FFG
DD 326

CLAW 
*E: A 1-FB
*E: ROE 2-FB
DD 187
DD 188
DD 189
DD:FFG
DD 326

WING 
*E: A 1-FB
*E: ROE 2-FB
DD 296
DD:FFG

STONE 
*E: ROE 1 (17-18)-FB
DD 190 (4)-FB
*E: A 1-FB
DD 190 (5-6)-FB
*E: ROE 2 (19-20)-FB
{DD 187}


STICK 
W2 113-FB
*E: ROE 2 (3:4)-FB-FB
DD 226-FB
*E: ROE 1 (17-18)-FB
DD 190 (4)-FB
E: A 1 (9-11)-FB
*E: ROE 2 (2-4)-FB
*E: ROE 3 (31:1-31:3)-FB
DD 190 (5-6)-FB
E: A 1 (13)-FB
ELEK -1
*E: ROE 2 (19-20)-FB
{DD 176}

(juggled a bit, thanks to E: ROE. Also, W2 103-FB has no new information, its duplicated from E: ROE 2-FB and should be deleted) 

Best line of the series: 
names Fury. Nick Fury. But you can call me Colonel. 

Can anyone check Elektra vol. 1 #2(Dec. 1996) to see whats in that FlashBack? Thanks!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 04, 2008 5:57 pm 
By Ichaberstich

> Can anyone check Elektra vol. 1 #2(Dec. 1996) to see whats in that FlashBack?

Elektra's flashback in the issue is a panel on the last story page showing Elektra as a young girl in Greece "giving her father the necklace that Stavros showed her how to make". I'd place her age in the panel at early/mid-teens.

It looks like ELEK 2-FB happened during ELEK2 35-FB.
Page 12 of ELEK2 35: Elektra is a child staying with her Uncle Demetrios and Aunt Alexia in the Greek countryside. 
Page 13 (panel one) of ELEK2 35: An older Elektra has begun traveling the world with her father. She appears to be about the same age as the ELEK 2-FB with the necklace. (panel two) Elektra begins studying martial arts with a sensei at her father's insistence.
Page 14 (panel one) of ELEK2 35: Cut to Elektra's first meeting with Matt Murdock from DD 168. [Dialogue: Matt: "...Matthew Murdock. I'm in pre-law." Elektra: "E-Elektra Natchios, Political science..."] (panel two) Matt and Elektra kiss. (panel three) Elektra tied to chair as her father is gunned down.

So it's a small change, but I'd suggest this for Elektra's entry:
ELEKTRA/ELEKTRA NATCHIOS 
[...]
ELEK2 35-FB
ELEK 2-FB
***ELEK2 35-FB***
{DD 168 (1 - 4)-FB}
ELEK -1 (1 - 3:3)
DD 168 (5 - 9:1)-FB
DD2 37-FB
[...]

			*	*	*

May 05, 2008 12:00 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks, lchaberstich! 

You're right, there are a lot of FlashBacks in Elektra vol2 35! I really didn't want to mess round with those until I knew what was in Elektra vol1 2-FB, so here we go!

ELEK2 35 (3:1)-FB
Death of Elektra. Weve seen this before, no new information. 

ELEK2 35 (4)-FB
Resurrection of Elektra. Again, no new information. 

ELEK2 35 (5:1-5:2)-FB
Some rememberance FlashBacks, nothing new. 

ELEK2 35 (10:2-10:3)-FB
Elektra kills someone, it looks like early in her career. 

ELEK2 35 (11)-FB
Christina Natchios is killed and Hugo is shot. (11:1) is new, (11:2) is not. (11:1) immediately precedes E: A 1 (1-4)-FB. 

ELEK2 35 (12)-FB
Covered above. 

ELEK2 35 (13:1)-FB
Covered above. 

ELEK2 35 (13:2)-FB
Covered above. 

ELEK2 35 (14:1)-FB
Covered above, no new information. (DD 168-FB)

ELEK2 35 (14:2)-FB
Covered above. 

ELEK2 35 (14:3)-FB
Covered above, no new information. 

ELEK2 35 (15:1)-FB
Elektra climbs a snowy mountain again, to return to the Chaste. 

ELEK2 35 (15:2)-FB
Elektra has just killed her sensei. 

ELEK2 35 (16)-FB
Elektra & Daredevil, no new information. 

So: 

ELEKTRA/ELEKTRA NATCHIOS 
E: A 1 (1-4)-FB
E: ROE 4 (4:4-4:6)-FB-FB
E: A 1 (5-6)-FB
ELEK2 35 (12)-FB
E: ROE 3 (1-5)-FB
E: A 1 (8)-FB
E: ROE 4 (1-5)-FB
*ELEK2 35 (13:1)-FB
ELEK 2-FB
*ELEK2 35 (13:2)-FB
DD 190 (1-3)-FB
E: ROE 1 (17-18)-FB
DD 190 (4)-FB
E: A 1 (9-11)-FB
E: ROE 2 (2-4)-FB
E: ROE 3 (31:1-31:3)-FB
DD 190 (5-6)-FB
E: A 1 (13)-FB
E: ROE 1 (2-3)-FB
ELEK -1 (1-3:3)
DD 168 (6-9:1)-FB
DD2 37-FB
*ELEK2 35 (14:2)-FB
ELEK -1 (5-22)
DD 168 (9:2-12:14)-FB
*ELEK2 35 (15:1)-FB
E: ROE 2 (19-20)-FB
DD 190 (7-12)-FB
*ELEK2 35 (15:2)-FB
E: A 1 (18-20)-FB
E: ROE 3 (18-21)-FB
E: ROE 3 (25:4-25:5)-FB
E: ROE 4 (31:6-31:8)-FB
E: ROE 2 (12:4-12:5)-FB
BIZADV 28
*ELEK2 35 (10:2-10:3)-FB
E: A 1 (22-27)-FB
E: A 1


NATCHIOS, HUGO
E: ROE 4 (3:2-3:5)-FB-FB
E: ROE 2 (4:2)-FB-FB
*ELEK2 35-FB
E: A 1 (1-4)-FB
E: ROE 4 (4:4-4:6)-FB-FB
E: A 1 (5-6)-FB
ELEK2 35-FB-BTS
E: ROE 3 (1-5)-FB
E: ROE 4 (1-5)-FB
E: ROE 1 (2-3)-FB
DD 168-FB

NATCHIOS, CHRISTINA
E: ROE 4 (3:2-3:5)-FB-FB
*ELEK2 35-FB
E: A 1-FB

Thanks again, lchaberstich! That's teamwork. 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 05, 2008 3:16 am 
By Enda80

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektra_Na ... y_accounts
This came up before. A later story featured a contradictory account of Elektra's death. The DD Handbook went with this mini-series version.

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Subject: Call For Analyses: Missing Books

Mar 04, 2008 12:17 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

The Gap is closed! However, we still have some holes in the chronologies. This is a Call for Analysis for books missing from the Project before 2004. Were still working on older submissions, which is why they arent listed here, and as these books are submitted theyll be removed from this list as well. Please look over the list and let us know if theres anything you can help out on by submitting an analysis. 

That's a wrap!

Any help that people can provide would be greatly appreciated. As always, thanks to all who post on this forum!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 4:38 am 
By Starman

>>>
SPIDER-MAN DAREDEVIL: USUAL SUSPECTS 1-4 (2001)
SPIDER-MAN: HOBGOBLIN LIVES #1-3 (1997)
<<<

I could take a shot at these two series.

Last edited by Starman on Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total. 

- Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 5:08 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks, Starman!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 7:52 am 
By JD

I may try analysing the HOOD mini this weekend. It'll be a break from my DD early chronology research.

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 8:44 am 
By wolframbane

I would like to review Conspiracy. The Silver Age revelations in that story just make my mouth water.

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 11:20 am 
By Somebody
Director

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
I would like to review Conspiracy. The Silver Age revelations in that story just make my mouth water.
<<<

And it's now been referenced in NW4 #7 

I could do Guardians, but I'm not sure that it's canon...

[Remainder of post split to '2004 "Guardians" mini canon?' in MU at Admin's request, along with follow-up discussion.]

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 1:24 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks folks!

I vaguely remember a discussion here about Guardians back when it finished up, and I remember it being on Paul B's Calendar Call list, and I remember him taking it off, but I can't find an analysis in the Archives. I'll have to do some digging tonight after work, but did we decide it was non-canon? I don't remember...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 04, 2008 8:01 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
FANTASTIC FOUR FIREWORKS 1-3 (1999)
<<<

IIRC, this series is a retelling of the events in FF #35-40. Branded "Marvel Remix" or something similar, it's just about as canon as "Professor X and the X-Men".

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 05, 2008 2:20 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

A quick search for cover art confirms that 'Marvel Remix' is on the covers for Fantastic Four: Fireworks. Can anyone confirm that this is a retelling, like Jeph described? 

And Somebody, it sounds like we'll need an analysis of Guardians to see if it's canon or not.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 05, 2008 8:01 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
A quick search for cover art confirms that 'Marvel Remix' is on the covers for Fantastic Four: Fireworks. Can anyone confirm that this is a retelling, like Jeph described? 
<<<

Yup. It's a retelling. Not canon.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 05, 2008 7:34 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
IRON MAN: THE LEGEND (1996)
<<<

There were four of these, Captain America, Fantastic Four, Iron Man, & Thor. I have the Captain America one, and it's mostly information, but in the back is a 'missing' sequence. I'm assuming there's a 'missing' sequence in all four of these and that's why Iron Man is listed. However, I'm not seeing any of the four in the Key, and I'm not seeing the missing Captain America sequence in his chronology. 

Do all four have a missing sequence of new material? If so, we'll need analyses for all four. I have Cap covered...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 05, 2008 10:35 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Guardians' discussion split to '2004 "Guardians" mini canon?' thread in MU at Admin's request. [There's some orphaned half-posts because I copy'n'pasted posts, and some referred to both the CFA & Guardians.]

			*	*	*

Mar 08, 2008 5:14 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Please add the 4-issue Deadline to the list. I know you said it was "addressed" in archive 46, but only its placement was discussed. I need an analysis.


watching: tru calling

			*	*	*

Mar 10, 2008 12:03 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
I would like to review Conspiracy. The Silver Age revelations in that story just make my mouth water.
<<<

This intrigued me, and in my travels today I stumbled across both issues. Igor Kordy's name was on the cover so I bought them without thinking twice. Thanks for the tip!  Flipping through the first issue I've already noticed a scene from the Invaders... issue 4 I think. So yeah, if you run into any tangles with this one, I'll chip in what I can. 

I also picked up some other stuff on this list, so I'm sure I'll get around to some of them eventually.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 13, 2008 6:56 pm 
By wolframbane

Man I love this story. I will have my review posted in the next couple of days. There were so many little details in it, its gonna take forever lol

			*	*	*

Mar 20, 2008 8:23 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

We're into the home stretch, folks! I've submitted what I could get my hands on, but there's still two books without volunteers. 

The WILD ANGELS/MARVEL TOP 6 thing I'm sure is something that will just be floating around forever, unless it's ever reprinted in English. Or if someone translated it. I think this one may be doomed to forever be on the Checklist. 

HOWARD THE DUCK HOLIDAY SPECIAL (1997) however... anyone have this?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 21, 2008 7:43 am 
By PopularLoser

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
HOWARD THE DUCK HOLIDAY SPECIAL (1997) however... anyone have this?
<<<

I do ... somewhere. It may take me a few days to dig it out though. If no else gets to it first, I'll do the analysis.

[Insert Witty Remark Here]

			*	*	*

Mar 21, 2008 12:30 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

You're awesome.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 23, 2008 9:48 am 
By Frederic Krier

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
The WILD ANGELS/MARVEL TOP 6 thing I'm sure is something that will just be floating around forever, unless it's ever reprinted in English. Or if someone translated it. I think this one may be doomed to forever be on the Checklist. 
<<<

I've always been intrigued by that book, so I've just ordered it through Ebay Italia. It probably will take several weeks before it gets here, but I'm willing to do an analysis as soon as I've read it. My italian is probably not good enough to translate the whole thing, but I should be able to understand what's going on.

			*	*	*

Mar 23, 2008 5:30 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

That's called 'Above and Beyond' sir. Thanks!

If you run into some translating problems, this place: 

http://translation2.paralink.com/

is pretty good. It can translate whole sentences! Just select what language you're using, and what language you want translated, type it in and there you go. 

Thanks again, Frederic!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 23, 2008 8:40 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Speaking of foreign stories, did the three stories collected in Panini's "Marvel Europa" TPB ever get analyzed? I remember the French Wolverine story ("Saudade") did, but there are foreign Spidey and Daredevil stories in there too.

"Marvel Europa" translates the three stories into English. I ordered it and it's on its way ... it should arrive in 2-3 weeks, so maybe I can lend a hand if nobody else has analyzed those other two.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 23, 2008 11:56 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I can't find anything here for the Spider-Man & Daredevil stories. It looks like they're yours!

Nice avatar, by the way. 

-Col_Fury, fellow Trekkie.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 24, 2008 2:04 am 
By jephyork
Director

Thanks! You should see my license plates. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 24, 2008 3:42 am 
By Frederic Krier

My analysis for the italian Spider-Man used to be here:

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=2397&highlight=venice

but seems to have disappeared?

			*	*	*

Mar 24, 2008 10:42 am 
By Somebody
Director

Posts get sent to the Archives after a while. If the topic hasn't been posted to since (currently) December 2006, it'll have gone there. Do you remember the exact thread title? That would make it easier to find.

Found it - "Venice" was enough.

It's in Archive 72 ("Message threads ending in June, 2006.") , thread 32, title "Spider-Man in Venedig (Panini Comics)"

Last edited by Somebody on Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total. 

Reason: Found the thread 

			*	*	*

Mar 24, 2008 12:04 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Cool, so all that's needed is an analysis of "Daredevil: Dead on Arrival".

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 25, 2008 10:53 pm 
By Giant Ant

I recently bought the french comics Nova #25-26 from Lug Editions wich contain an original Silver Surfer story.
Would you guys be interested in an analysis? 

For more info on that story, see http://www.twomorrows.com/alterego/articles/01surfer.html

			*	*	*

Apr 25, 2008 11:04 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Absolutely!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 28, 2008 12:28 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Sorry for stealing Hobgoblin Lives, Starman. I got myself into a Spider-Man mood this weekend.   Thanks again for the Spider-Man/Spider-Man 2099 analysis! 

I was all ready to call this a wrap, but then I found a couple more missing books. Anybody have those Marvel Fanfares, the Power Pack Special, or the last issue of Fantastic Force? 'Cause I don't. 

I look forward to that original Silver Surfer story analysis from the French Nova series, Giant Ant. Thanks again for telling us about it!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 05, 2008 11:34 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

As it turns out I was able to track down these last few issues over the weekend, so I have them covered. 

So that's it folks! Thanks for the help in nailing these down, it's greatly appreciated!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 06, 2008 9:21 am 
By jephyork
Director

My copy of Marvel Europa finally arrived yesterday! Let the analyzing begin...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Subject: Power Pack Holiday Special 1

May 07, 2008 1:58 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Power Pack Holiday Special #1
February, 1992

Appearances: 
Alex, Jack, Katie, Julie, Mom, Dad, Alex(fake), Friday, Mom(fake), Dad(fake), Technocrat, Meraud, Kofi, Yrik

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg41
In space, Power Pack and their parents are aboard their sentient ship Friday on their way to the new Kymellian homeworld. Elsewhere, Meraud & Technocrat chat in front of tubes holding the real Alex and parents. When Technocrat makes a fake Julie, Alex breaks free and destroys the computer controlling the fake constructs. The newly made Julie melts, as does the fake horse-Alex aboard Friday, as well as the adult Powers. Katie freaks out, Jack is stunned, and Julie is teleported away and put into a tube next to Alex. Friday brings Katie & Jack to Technocrats space station, and once Power Pack reunites they destroy the place, defeat Meraud, and retrieve their real parents. They escape in Friday, and meet up with the Kymellians, who bring them to their new homeworld. The next day, Kofi & Yrik explain that their parents still have the mental block, but otherwise everythings back to normal and everyone has their original powers back. Power Pack and their parents return to Earth, just in time for the holidays! 

References: 
I havent read any issues of the original Power Pack, but this reads like a big wrap up the old plots and hit the reset button special. Issue 62 is referenced, so I can safely say this takes place after the end of the series. Looking at the chronologies, since the protoplasm construct Alex appears in Marvel Super Heroes vol3 #6, I can safely say this special occurs after that, as well.(the construct melts here, meaning this is its last appearance) Next up are some New Warriors issues from 1993, so Im pretty sure this takes place before those. Thats the easy stuff. 

By the end of the issue, everyone has their original powers back and they cant trade off anymore. I dont know how this will affect how the kids are listed by which code-names they use, but there you go. 

Its revealed here that the parents(Margaret & Jim) are also protoplasm constructs, but its not nailed down WHEN they were replaced. All we have to go on is a line of dialogue: 

After all, Dad has the same mind lock supposedly an he thinks our powers are cool. Not that hes acting right either! Cause why would dad get super powers out of the blue when Whitey had to give us all our powers. 

Its confirmed that both parents have the mind lock in this issue, so when did the dad start thinking their powers were cool? And when did he get powers? Because thats all we have to go on. 

Its December, but not yet Christmas. 

Power Pack Holiday Special #1/2

Appearances: 
Alex, Julie, Katie, Jack, Margaret Power, Jim Power

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3
The kids are hanging out, and Julie catches a boy she likes making out with another girl. She runs off crying. 
FlashBack
Julie tries to save a beached porpoise, and Seth(the boy she likes) happens by, but theyre too late; the porpoise is dead. Seth runs off to make out some more. 
Pg4-pg6
Julie returns home and is yelled at for leaving Katie behind. She tells her mom the story of the porpoise and cries herself to sleep. 

References: 
Christmas is almost here! 

Power Pack Holiday Special #1/3

Appearances: 
Alex, Julie, Katie, Jack, Margaret Power, Jim Power

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg6
Its Christmas Eve, and Jack has to take a placement test on Christmas Day. He finds out that his teacher wants to see her family for the holidays but cant, because she has to give a placement test. Jack gets Power Pack together to bring the family to her, and the teacher decides to call the school to postpone the test. The next day the Power family is opening presents while Jack studies for his placement test. 

References: 
Its Christmas! 

Some placement suggestions: 

DESTROYER VI/ALEX POWER

PP 55
*PPHS 1
*PPHS 1/2
*PPHS 1/3
See Powerpax

MASS MASTER II PROTOPLASM CONSTRUCT/"ALEX POWER"

XCAL 29
PP 62
*PPHS 1

DESTROYER VII/JACK POWER

PP 62
*PPHS 1
*PPHS 1/2
*PPHS 1/3
NW 48


COUNTERWEIGHT II/KATIE POWER 

PP 62
NW@ 1/8
*PPHS 1
*PPHS 1/2
*PPHS 1/3
NW 48


LIGHTSPEED/JULIE POWER

XCAL 29
PP 62
*PPHS 1
*PPHS 1/2 (1-3) 
*PPHS 1/2-FB
*PPHS 1/2 (4-6) 
*PPHS 1/3
NW 48


FRIDAY

PP 62
*PPHS 1
NW 65


YRIK [KYMELLIAN]
*PPHS 1
PP:PP 1
PP:PP 3
PP:PP 4

KOFI [KYMELLIAN]

PP 52
*PPHS 1
PP:PP 1


At the very least: 

POWER, MARGARET

XCAL 29
PP 62-BTS
*PPHS 1
*PPHS 1/2
*PPHS 1/3
NW 65


POWER, DR. JIM

XCAL 29
PP 62
*PPHS 1
*PPHS 1/2
*PPHS 1/3
NW 55


POWER, MARGARET II PROTOPLASM CONSTRUCT/"MARGARET POWER
PPHS 1

POWER, DR. JIM II PROTOPLASM CONSTRUCT/"JIM POWER
PPHS 1

The protoplasm constructs only appear in the first story. When its figured out when Jim & Margaret were replaced, the chronologies should be hived off and placed into the constructs. All three holiday special stories should remain in the real characters chronologies. Any ideas?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 07, 2008 5:23 am 
By dimadick

Its not just James Powers thinking his kids have cool powers. Both parents had no way of accessing any memories of their kids having any powers until Power Pack vol. 1 #57 (July, 1990). Then not only do they figure it out but inform Reed Richards that his son is also a member of their team. According to this retconn any appearance of James and Margaret Power since #57 were the Technocrat constructs.

This would include Power Pack #57-62 (July, 1990 - February, 1991), Excalibur vol. 1 #29 (October, 1990) and Marvel Super Heroes vol. 3 #6 (July, 1991).

As for the Alex Power construct, it apparently goes back to Power Pack #56 (May, 1990) where his physical transformation into a Kymellian started.

			*	*	*

May 07, 2008 3:41 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks, dimadick!

POWER, DR. JIM

PP 54
FF 337
PP 55
PP 56
*PPHS 1
*PPHS 1/2
*PPHS 1/3
NW 55


POWER, DR. JIM II PROTOPLASM CONSTRUCT/"JIM POWER
PP 57
PP 58
PP 59
FF@ 23
PP 59
PP 60
PP 61
PP 62
M/SH3 6/2
XCAL 29-FB
XCAL 29
PP 62
PPHS 1

POWER, MARGARET

PP 54
FF 337
PP 55
PP 56
*PPHS 1
*PPHS 1/2
*PPHS 1/3
NW 65


POWER, MARGARET II PROTOPLASM CONSTRUCT/"MARGARET POWER
PP 57
PP 58
PP 59
PP 60
PP 61
PP 62
XCAL 29-FB
XCAL 29
PP 62-BTS
PPHS 1

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Subject: Fantastic Force 18

May 06, 2008 12:20 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Fantastic Force #18
April, 1996

Appearances: 
Psi-Lord(Franklin Richards), Diablo(Esteban De Ablo), She-Hulk(Jennifer Walters), Devlor, Vibraxas(NKano), Human Torch(Johnny Storm), Mr. Fantastic(Reed Richards), Thing(Ben Grimm), Invisible Woman(Sue Richards), Lyja Lazerfist, Mephisto-FB

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7pn1
Psi-Lord and his aunt Huntara fight a bunch of demons. Meanwhile, Diablo gloats while She-Hulk, Devlor, and Vibraxas are held captive behind him. 
Pg7pn2-pg8pn1-FB
Diablo makes a deal with Mephisto, but is screwed over. Surprise! After FF3 36-FB, before XM: ASD-FB. 
Pg8pn2-pg8pn3
Diablo talks to himself. 
Pg8pn4 (of 6)-FB
Fantastic Four #277, no new information. 
Pg8pn5-pg22
Psi-Lord and Huntara fight each other while Devlor breaks free and fights Diablo. Huntara is revealed as a construct, and Ps-Lord makes his way to the Diablo fight where he defeats him as well. Later, while the Force is cleaning up the place, Johnny shows up and gets yelled at by Vibraxas. Johnny reveals it wasnt his fault when Reed Richards walks through the door, showing he isnt dead after all. 

References: 
Continued from last issue. 

As it turns out, that wasnt the real Huntara. Since this issue is continued from last, and shes not listed for that issue, it looks like we already knew that. 

Remember when Reed was dead? Hes back here, bearded, long haired, and wearing a trench coat. Reed was found in FFU 12, which continued directly into FF 408 & 409. By the time FF 410 comes around, Psi-Lord is already making an appearance. So really, the only place for this to go is between FF 409 & FF 410. 

Some placement suggestions: 

PSI-LORD/FRANKLIN BENJAMIN RICHARDS

FFOR 17
*FFOR 18
FF410


DIABLO II/ESTEBAN DE HABLO
FF3 35-FB
FF3 36-FB
*FFOR 18-FB
XM:ASD-FB

FFOR 17
*FFOR 18
FF3 35


SHE-HULK/JENNIFER WALTERS

FFOR 17
*FFOR 18
DS 1 


DEVLOR

FFOR 17
*FFOR 18
FF 416

VIBRAXAS/N'KANO

FFOR 17
*FFOR 18
FF 416


HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM

FF 409
*FFOR 18
FF 410


MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS

FF 409
*FFOR 18
FF 410


THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM

FF 409
*FFOR 18
FF 410


INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUE STORM RICHARDS 

FF 409
*FFOR 18
FF 410


LYJA LAZERFIST [SKRULL]

FF 409
*FFOR 18
FF 410


MEPHISTO 
GR2 77-FB
HA 1
DH 14-FB
MG:I 1-FB
MG:I 2-FB
MG:I 4-FB
M/CP 135/3-FB
GR3 92-FB
SS 8-FB
GR3 11-FB
DSDDGN-FB
GR3 -1
{SS 3}


Heres the question. I dont have Hells Angels 1, Deaths Head 14, or any issues of Mortigan Goth: Immortalis. Any idea where Diablos origin goes in Mephistos chronology? If it helps, its sometime before November 1810

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 06, 2008 6:19 pm 
By Enda80

Those Marvel UK publications populated fifty cent and quarter bins abundantly. 

Heres the question. I dont have Hells Angels 1, 
987 CE

Deaths Head 14, 
Did you mean Dark Angel#14? 

or any issues of 
Mortigan Goth: Immortalis. 
1349 Ce

			*	*	*

May 06, 2008 11:05 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks!

MEPHISTO 
GR2 77-FB
HA 1
DH 14-FB
MG:I 1-FB
MG:I 2-FB
MG:I 4-FB
M/CP 135/3-FB
*FFOR 18-FB
GR3 92-FB
...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 07, 2008 3:48 am 
By Enda80

MEPHISTO
GR2 77-FB
*FFOR 18
HA 1-FB
DA 14-FB
MG:I 1-FB
MG:I 2-FB
MG:I 4-FB
M/CP 135/3-FB
GR3 92-FB

Diablo's fb takes place in the ninth century, 1000 years ago. 

By the way, I am guessing it was supposed to be Mephisto in that Fantastic Four III#36 fb. As Snood wrote:
That's interesting, seeing how Diablo was born in 9th Century Spain, while Dracula didn't get his powers until the 15th Century.
I guess Diablo had to wait 6 centuries to learn how to extend his lifespan?
Plus, what did Dracula know about extending human life beyond vamping them?
Dracula's not pictured in that issue, but rather Diablo taunts the girl from the Order of Deacons. I'm thus listing the info in the comments, rather than the history. If and when it occurred is anyone's guess.

			*	*	*

May 09, 2008 6:35 pm 
By Enda80

http://www.comicboards.com/fantasticfou ... racula.jpg

Here is a scan from the FF issue. 

The figure is inked in red, wears a cape and has fangs, all of which applies to Mephisto. It is hard to tell if he has Mephisto's usual "hockey hair" but the shadows obscure his face. 

MEPHISTO
GR2 77-FB
**FF3 36-FB
*FFOR 18
HA 1-FB
DA 14-FB
MG:I 1-FB
MG:I 2-FB
MG:I 4-FB
M/CP 135/3-FB
GR3 92-FB

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Subject: Mighty Avengers 12

May 11, 2008 11:29 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Mighty Avengers #12
June, 2008

Appearances: 
Pg1-pg3: 
Nick Fury, Wolverine, Daisy Johnson, Daredevil, Captain America, Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Spider-Woman
Pg4-pg12: 
Nick Fury, Skrulls
Pg13-pg17: 
Nick Fury, Maria Hill
Pg18-pg22
Nick Fury, Spider-Woman

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Secret War #5-FB
Wolverine guts the Fury LMD, and we see Furys side of the conversation. Occurs simultaneously with Secret War 5-FB. 
Pg4-pg6: one month later
Fury, disguised and in hiding, is approached by the Contessa. After she gives him a hard time over his disguise, they retire for the evening. 
Pg7-pg12: the next morning
The Contessa excuses herself to pick up some food, but something seems strange so Fury follows her. Invisible, he watches as she meets a contact, telling him she needs at least a week to gain his confidence. When she returns Fury is waiting for her with a gun. He asks her twice who she really is, and when she refuses to answer he shoots her in the face. RIGHT IN THE FACE! By the time her body hits the floor, shes reverted to her Skrull form. Fury watches invisibly as others gather the body, and uses a translator to discover theyre speaking in Skrull. 
Pg13-pg17: two weeks later
Maria Hill wakes up to find Fury in her room on the Helicarrier, using her computer. He warns her that people may not be who they seem to be, without spelling out Skrull. He tells her to start using the new design Life Model Decoys; its not cheating or cowardly, its smart thinking. He then jumps off the Helicarrier and flies away with his awesome jetpack. 
Pg18-pg22: two months later
Between pg20 & pg21 of New Avengers 23, Fury meets with Spider-Woman and explains the Skrull situation. He tells her to get back into S.H.I.E.L.D.s good graces, grovel if she has to, and she eventually agrees. He returns to his safehouse and looks at his wall of suspects. 

References: 
Pg1-pg3
We dont use ~ for FlashBacks, but this case should be an exception. Secret War was loaded with FlashBacks because at the time that was the story telling device Bendis was in love with, and thats the only reason this particular sequence, Wolverine guts the Fury LMD, is in Flashback. These three pages show Furys end of the events, happening simultaneously with that segment of Secret War, and should not replace the original scene. 

Pg4-pg12
Furys disguise is basically Ultimate Fury. The Contessa gives him some crap over it, so he turns the disguise off. Given her remark of needing at least a week to gain his trust, they obviously havent been together a month for him to re-grow his hair, and since hes disguised next issue as a shaved Ultimate Fury, hes using holograms to disguise himself. 

The Skrulls used Contessa to try to lure Fury here, and again to lure Dum Dum Dugan in the Secret Invasion Internet Prologue. This Skrull was killed, the other replaced Dum Dum. Given that shes been transferred to England, and the repeated use of her, Im not convinced shes been replaced yet. 

Pg13-pg17
Maria Hill appears here shortly after shes promoted to Director of S.H.I.E.L.D., and sometime before Civil War starts up. 

Pg18-pg22
This conversation happens during New Avengers 23, between pg20 & pg21. Spider-Woman mentions that shes been recently threatened by S.H.I.E.L.D.; give up Fury or go to prison. This happened in New Avengers #23, she cut her ties with them, then cut her ties with Hydra. She has nowhere to go and Fury knows it; hes been spying on her for the last week. He tells her to grovel if she has to, and thats what she does in New Avengers 23 pg21. Its just not on the S.H.I.E.L.D. side of the Civil War, she just didnt have much of a choice. 

Furys wall of suspects has a couple of people circled in two colors. Some are in blue, other are in red. 

Blue: 
Daredevil, Spider-Man, Lockjaw, Stature, Namor

Red: 
Wolverine, Hulkling, Sentry, Dr. Strange

What do the two colors mean? Confirmed Skrull/Suspected Skrull? Confirmed not Skrull/Suspected Skrull? Easy to replicate powers/Difficult to replicate powers? Who knows?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Subject: Marvel Fanfare 34-37

May 10, 2008 12:56 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

There is only one story in Marvel Fanfare 34 & 35 each, and the second stories in 36 & 37 are already in the MCP, so the only thing to cover is a four issue Asgard story: 

Marvel Fanfare #34
September, 1987

Appearances: 
Norn Sisters(Urd, Skuld, Verdanda), Heimdall, Volstagg, Hildigunn, Hrolf, Svein, Iron Shanks, Loki

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22
The Norn Sisters tell us an important marriage is about to take place on Midsummers Eve, and if it doesnt happen then all of Asgard is doomed! Heimdall sounds his horn as Volstagg tries to get away from his family to attend the wedding. Meanwhile, Loki spies on the bride & groom to be, pissed that he wasnt invited. He turns the groom into a goat, who runs into the forest. Loki, disguised as an old man, hands the goat back with instructions on how to return him to normal. Volstagg happens by and takes the goat to Wolfs castle to bathe the goat. After fighting some wolf men he does, but the goat stays a goat. 

References: 
Theres a one-page spread on page 2, but its an establishing these are Asgardians shot, and not an actual appearance. 

Marvel Fanfare #35
November, 1987

Appearances: 
Norn Sisters(Urd, Skuld, Verdanda), Odin, Volstagg, Fandral, Hogun, Loki

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22
The Norn Sisters tell us an important marriage is about to take place on Midsummers Eve, and if it doesnt happen then all of Asgard is doomed! As Odin starts to go to the wedding, Volstagg sleeps at his dinner table and Fandral woos a young lady. Meanwhile, Hogun is delayed on his way to the wedding on a bridge. Elsewhere, Loki spies on the bride & groom to be, pissed that he wasnt invited. He turns the groom into a goat, who runs into the forest. Loki, disguised as an old man, hands the goat back with instructions on how to return him to normal. Hogun happens by and takes the goat to Elfs wood to feed the goat some fruit. After dealing with mischievous fairies he feeds the goat, but the goat stays a goat. 

References: 
Sound familiar? 

Volstagg appears here before last issue, Hogun just missed him because he was delayed, and Loki appears here simultaneously with last issue. 

Marvel Fanfare #36
January, 1988

Appearances: 
Norn Sisters(Urd, Skuld, Verdanda), Fandral, Freya, Loki

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22
The Norn Sisters tell us an important marriage is about to take place on Midsummers Eve, and if it doesnt happen then all of Asgard is doomed! Fandral is supposed to be making his way to the wedding, but instead hes making out. Elsewhere, Loki spies on the bride & groom to be, pissed that he wasnt invited. He turns the groom into a goat, who runs into the forest. Loki, disguised as an old man, hands the goat back with instructions on how to return him to normal. Fandral finally makes it and takes the goat to the Isle of Love to see Freya. Freya works her magic and tells Fandral that the goat stinks of Loki. 

References: 
Sound familiar? 

Marvel Fanfare #37
April, 1988

Appearances: 
Norn Sisters(Urd, Skuld, Verdanda), Loki, Fandral, Volstagg, Hogun, Iron Shanks, Odin, Frigga, Thor, Iron Shanks, Hildigunn, Hrolf, Svein

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22
The Norn Sisters tell us an important marriage is about to take place on Midsummers Eve, and if it doesnt happen then all of Asgard is doomed! Loki gloats to himself over his awesome goat plan. He has the real groom, while he passed out three fakes. Meanwhile, the Warriors Three converge at the wedding site. Odin, Frigga and Thor arrive and the Warriors Three go after Loki, who hands them their collective asses. Thor decides to lend a hand a quickly defeats Loki. The groom is restored, the wedding commences, and Asgard is saved! Having saved the day, Volstagg returns home to get yelled at by Hildigunn and tormented by Hrolf & Svein. 

References: 
While the previous three issues happen more or less at the same time, this one happens afterwards. Also, the Norn Sisters dont appear simultaneously, their dialogue progresses as the story does. 

Heres how these issues would look in a chronology: 

FANDRAL [ASGARDIAN]

M/FAN 35
M/FAN 36
M/FAN 37


FREYA [ASGARDIAN]

M/FAN 36


FRIGGA [ASGARDIAN]

M/FAN 37


HEIMDALL [ASGARDIAN]

M/FAN 34


HOGUN [ASGARDIAN]

M/FAN 35
M/FAN 37


LOKI [ASGARDIAN]

M/FAN 34 ~ M/FAN 35 ~ M/FAN 36
M/FAN 37


ODIN [ASGARDIAN]

M/FAN 35
M/FAN 37


THOR/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" [ASGARDIAN]

M/FAN 37


VOLSTAGG [ASGARDIAN]

M/FAN 35
M/FAN 34
M/FAN 36
M/FAN 37


I couldnt find a chronology for any of the Norn Sisters. Do any of them have one? The same goes for Volstaggs wife Hildigunn, or his two kids Svein & Hrolf. Or Iron Shanks. Have they never appeared anywhere else? 

I have no idea where this would go in the Asgardians chronologies. Any ideas?-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 11, 2008 12:45 pm 
By dimadick

"I couldnt find a chronology for any of the Norn Sisters."

They have appeared in :

*"Bizarre Adventures" #32 (August, 1982) . A tale occuring in Viking times. A young Thor is decreed by Odin to visit the Norns once as year and does so for the first time. 
*Journey Into Mystery #102/2 (March, 1964) and its modern retelling Thor:Son of Asgard #10 (January, 2005). In both cases a young Thor is told by the Norns that he must face death before claiming Mjolnir as his own. The tale proceeds to his first meeting with Hela and then he is able to claim Mjolnir. 
*Marvel Graphic Novel:The Raven Banner (1985). Here they are identified with the Fates of the Olympians. Asgardian tale of some time ago, perhaps centuries. 
*Tales to Astonish #33/3 (July, 1962). World War II tale of the Fates, presumably the Norns. They appear to a traitor of the American Armed Forces, warning him that he can not escape justice for his betrayal. He scoffes at the notion and seeks refuge with his employers in Japan. He is present in Hiroshima on August 6, 1945 and their prophecy is fullfilled.
*Thor #197 (March, 1972). First appearance in stories taking place in the Marvel Age.
*Thor #200-201 (June - July, 1972).
*Defenders vol. 1 #66 (December, 1978).
*Thor Annual #11 (1983).
*Thor #346-348 (August - October, 1984).
*New Mutants Special Edition #1 (1985).
*Thor #376 (December, 1986).
*Ultimate Silver Surfer:Tarnished Soul (November, 1995). Here they introduce themselves both as Norn and Fates. Claiming their true names to be Clotho, Lachesis and Atropos, the names of the Greek Fates. (Presumably respectively Urd, Verdandi and Skuld)
*Cable vol 2 #79, 81, 83 (May, July, September 2000).
*Thor vol. 2 #85 (December, 2004). Perishing in the Ragnarok. Anyone's guess if they returned with the others in Thor vol. 3.

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Subject: Daredevil: Blood of the Tarantula 1

May 11, 2008 7:32 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Daredevil: Blood of the Tarantula #1
June, 2008

Appearances: 
Black Tarantula(Carlos Lamuerto), Daredevil(Matt Murdock), Foggy Nelson, Luis Rodriguez, Marina Lamuerto-FB

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg10
The Black Tarantula beats up some drug dealers. He donates their money to a local church and destroys their product as the sun rises. Elsewhere, Foggy and Matt chat about the Tarantulas actions over the morning paper. Later, the Tarantula is distracted in the street when he thinks he sees his wife. 
Pg11-FB
Carlos argues with his wife as he leaves to receive the Black Tarantula powers and title. 
Pg12pn1-pg12pn5-FB
Carlos receives the Black Tarantula powers. 
Pg12pn6(of 9)-pg21: same day as pg10
Daredevil beats up some criminals while Carlos gets a call. They claim to have his wife and son, so he meets them where hes ambushed. Its his old gang, led by his cousin Luis. He escapes, barely, and makes his way to Matts place. 
Pg22-pg33: next day
Carlos wakes up to find Matt working out. He explains the situation with his wife and son, and that night they return to the meet site. The Black Tarantula discovers that its not his wife and son, they were both dupes, drugged so they couldnt speak. When he releases him he sets off a bomb. Daredevil fights Luis men, and the Black Tarantula emerges, still on fire, and attacks Luis. Daredevil finishes with the rest of the men to discover Luis dead. 
Pg34: two weeks later
The Black Tarantula is laying low, working for a construction company. 

References: 
Its been nearly a month since the Black Tarantula put the word out of no drugs in his neighborhood. So, nearly a month since sometime after Daredevil Annual vol2 #1. 

Milla is namechecked as to why Matt is so miserable in this issue. I would place this early in the gap between DD2 105 & 106, before he descends into total misery. 

Some placement suggestions: 

BLACK TARANTULA II/CARLOS LAMUERTO
DD@2 1-FB
ASM 436 (6:4-6:5)-FB-FB
*DD: BOTT 1-FB
ASM 436 (6:7)-FB-FB
{ASM 419}
ASM 420

DD@2 1
DD: BOTT 1

DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK

DD2 105
DD: BOTT 1
DD2 106

NELSON, FRANKLIN P. "FOGGY"

DD2 105
DD: BOTT 1
DD2 106

RODRIGUES, LUIS
DD@2 1-FB
DD@2 1
DD: BOTT 1 

LAMUERTO, MARINA (nee CACHES)
ASM 436 (6:4-6:5)-FB-FB
DD: BOTT 1-FB
ASM 436 (6:7-7:1)-FB-FB
ASM 434
ASM 436

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 30

Subject: Logan 1-3

May 11, 2008 8:45 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Logan #1
May, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Lt. Ethan Warren, Atsuko-FB

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4
Wolverine strolls through Japan when hes attacked by a flaming skeleton. 
Pg5-pg23-FB
Cpl. Logan wakes up in a Japanese POW camp and meet Lt. Ethan Warren. They break themselves out and eventually come across a young lady. Warren wants to kill her, but Logan feels it isnt necessary. He fights Warren off and he goes with Atsuko to her place, where she offers herself to him as thanks for saving her life. 

References: 
In the current day, Wolverine is wearing his Astonishing uniform. In the past, its WWII in Hiroshima

Logan #2
June, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Lt. Ethan Warren, Atsuko-FB

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4
Wolverine and the flaming skeleton fight. 
Pg5-pg22-FB
Its the morning after for Logan and Atsuko, when Lt. Warren breaks in and shoots Logan in the face. Atsuko puts up a fight, but Warren kills her, and Logan gets up and fights. Logan discovers that Warren can heal like he can, and as they continue to fight, the bomb is dropped. After the mushroom cloud clears Logan is still standing, but his skin and intestines are missing. 

References: 
Well then. 6 August, 1945 it is. 

Logan #3
July, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine(Logan), Lt. Ethan Warren, Atsuko-FB

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5
Wolverine and the flaming skeleton, Lt. Ethan Warren, fight. 
Pg6-pg10: Between issue 1 & issue 3 Flashbacks
Logan and Atsuko fool around. 
Pg11-pg22
Warren rips out Wolverines heart and eats it. Once he does, he somehow regrows his flesh. Wolverine decapitates him, which seems to kill him. He passes out and chats with Atsukos spirit, who offers to erase his memories of her and Hiroshima. He refuses, and wakes up. 

References: 
The implication seems to be that Lt. Warren should be called Fallout, but hes never called that. 

Since Wolverine gets his heart ripped out, Ill say this should go before W3 57-61, where he loses the ability to survive wounds like that. 

Not surprisingly, this mini was more effective than almost every issue of Wolverine: Origins. 

Logan: Shadow Society is abbreviated as L: SS here, and Logan: Path of the Warlord is abbreviated as L: PW, and look! L is open. So Ill suggest L. 

A placement suggestion: 

WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT

W2 78-FB (06/06/44) 
*L 1-FB
*L 3-FB
*L 2-FB (08/06/45)
W2 103-FB 


-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 31

Subject: Mighty Avengers 13

May 15, 2008 10:56 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Mighty Avengers #13
July, 2008

Appearances: 
Nick Fury, Daisy Johnson, Ares, Phobos(Alex), Yo Yo Rodriguez, J.T., Layla Miller, Jerry Sledge, son of Dr. Druid

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: Portland, Oregon
Disguised, Nick Fury meets Daisy Johnson in Oregon. After a chat, he explains that hes pulling his caterpillar file and assembling a team of unknown super-people. She then gives him a hard time over his disguise. 
Pg4-pg8: the Bronx
Ares yells at his son Alex for not coming straight home after school and mentions that hes an Avenger now. After he leaves Daisy Johnson arrives and recruits Alex, after pointing out that since hes the son of Ares, hes Phobos God of Fear. 
Pg9-pg12: Puerto Rico
Yo Yo Rodriguez discovers she has super speed powers. Daisy arrives and they chat about Yo Yos dad Johnny Horton, the Griffin, and Daisy recruits her. 
Pg13-pg16: Atlanta, Georgia
In a convenience store, Daisy chats with J.T. about shoplifters and minimum wage. She asks to see his powers, and he charges up a chain and makes it explode. She explains that J.T. is the grandson of the Phantom Rider and recruits him. 
Pg17: Mutant Town
Daisy is greeted by Layla Miller at the door of X-Factor Investigations. Layla explains that they will fail with her, they wont without her. Besides, shes needed later for the mutants. Daisy doesnt recruit Layla. 
Pg18-pg19: Greenwich Village, New York
Dr. Druids son is trying to get ahold of Dr. Strange, but hes not home. Daisy catches up with him, having been looking for him in Hawaii, and recruits him. 
Pg20: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Daisy picks up Jerry Sledge in a holding cell in Minneapolis. 
Pg21-pg22: Furys safehouse
Daisy presents the recruits to Fury, who explains that hes the Boss. 

References: 
Last issue ended during Civil War, and now were past it and the opening arc of Mighty Avengers as well, thanks to Ares being an Avenger now. Were also before Messiah CompleX, thanks to Layla Miller. 

I find it hilarious that when Fury disguises himself, hes still wearing his eyepatch. Hilarious and AWESOME. 

Oh no! Furys wall of suspects now has Iron Man circled in blue!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 17, 2008 8:47 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

This story should occur over the course of a week or two. The narrative notes that it transpires "six months ago." I can only assume the reference point is the SECRET INVASION series.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 32

Subject: Amazing Spider-Girl #13-18

May 19, 2008 7:48 am 
By michaelyuri

Amazing Spider-Girl #13: I, Hobgoblin!
Script, Plot & Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz
Inks: Sal Buscema 


Characters Appearing:
Simone DeSantos, Hobgoblin, Kaine, Daniel Kingsley, Davida Kirby, Moose Mansfield, Mindworm/William Turner, Benjamin Parker, Spider-Girl, Spider-Man, Gene Thompson, Mary Jane Watson-Parker, Arthur Weadon, Wes Westin


Synopsis:
1: Recap page

2-3: Hobgoblin reveals to his brother Daniel that he has been conditioning his mind to resist manipulation in preparation for his new scheme to defeat Spider-Girl and the Black Tarantula.

4-5: May feels guilty about Ben's hearing loss. Peter and MJ try to reassure her that it's not her fault, but Peter secretly believes that it's his fault.

6-7: Hobgoblin has shaved his head in order to impersonate his brother. He leaves to fly to Las Vegas to meet a new associate.

8-9: It's election day at school and Simone is aggressively campaigning. May reassures Davida about the upcoming election and learns that Moose is being held in police custody.

10-12: Hobgoblin arrives in Las Vegas. He goes to meet with movie star Leonard Groote, who is actually an imposter named Mindworm. Hobgoblin can see through his disguise due to his mental conditioning. Hobgoblin tells Mindworm that he has a business proposition.

13: May heads off during lunch to check on Moose. While she's leaving, Gene tries to catch up with her, but she disappears before he has a chance.

14-15: May arrives at Arthur Weadon's base. Weadon reveals that Moose will be released soon. Moose sees Spider-Girl and lashes out calling her a murderer. May swings off in tears.

16: May returns to school and learns that Davida won the election. She goes looking for Gene.

17: Hobgoblin talks with Mindworm about Spider-Girl.

18: May congratulations Davida and offers to help set up for the upcoming dance.

19: Mindworm agrees to come to New York to help Hobgoblin deal with Spider-Girl.

20-21: Gene breaks up with May because she has been ditching him so often lately.

22: Hobgoblin thinks about his scheme to defeat Spider-Girl and the Black Tarantula.


Continuity Notes:
This issue takes place in a single day - the day of the school election.

------------------------------

Amazing Spider-Girl #14: The Enemy of my Enemy!
Script, Plot & Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz
Inks: Sal Buscema 


Characters Appearing:
Arana, Simone DeSantos, Courtney Duran, Hobgoblin, Davida Kirby, Donna Mansfield, Moose Mansfield, Miguel, Mindworm, Ben Parker, Psilord, Spider-Girl, Gene Thompson, Mary Jane Watson-Parker, Wes Westin


Synopsis:
1: Recap page

2-3: Hobgoblin bursts into a temple looking for Madame Web. He wants information that will help him in his battle against the Black Tarantula. He learns that Madame Web is no longer there, but has been succeeded by another Priestess.

4-5: May finds baby Ben climbing across the ceiling. MJ barely misses seeing Ben climbing, and May decides not to tell her about it just yet.

6-7: May meets up with Davida, and the two of them see Gene Thompson with Simone DeSantos. Davida tells May that if May isn't interested in Wes Westin, Davida will ask him out.

8-10: The temple priestess tells Hobgoblin a long story about the Black Tarantula's ancestry and the original source of his powers.

11-12: May and Davida are returning from shopping. May decides to visit the F5 to ask Mr. Fantastic about Ben's powers. There she meets Franklin who is wearing his new full facemask. He tells her that Mr. Fantastic will be unavailable for the foreseeable future (due to the events of the F5 mini).

13-14: Swinging home, May comes across a woman with a baby being mugged. She responds with unusual violence, viciously beating the thugs before stopping herself and swinging away.

15: The priestess tells Hobgoblin that a few people including Spider-Man and Arana have defeated Black Tarantulas in the past.

16-17: May and others are with Moose, who reveals that he will be moving back to Queens and returning to Midtown High. Moose is still furious with Spider-Girl because of the destruction of Carnage.

18-20: The priestess tells Hobgoblin that the mysterious Heart of the Spider may be the secret to defeating the Black Tarantula. Hobgoblin leaves, speculating that Spider-Girl is somehow connected to the Heart. The Priestess is revealed to be Arana in disguise. She is trying to eliminate the Black Tarantula by pitting the Hobgoblin against him.

21: May runs into Wes Westin who tells her that Davida asked him out.

22: Hobgoblin meets with the woman with baby, who is revealed to actually be Mindworm. Mindworm has established a psychic link with Spider-Girl and he was manipulating her emotions earlier.


Continuity Notes:
This issue takes place after the recent Fantastic Five mini.
This issue takes place in a single Saturday, shortly after the previous issue.

------------------------------

Amazing Spider-Girl #15: Dark Destiny!
Script, Plot & Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz
Inks: Sal Buscema 


Characters Appearing:
American Dream, Angry Eagle, Argo, Mr. Babbit, Black Tarantula, Blacklight, Bluestreak, Meagyn Brady, Buzz, Chesbro, Coal Tiger, Darkdevil, Simone DeSantos, Doc Magus, Vinnie Drasco, Courtney Duran, Earth Sentry, Earthshaker, Freebooter, Gelcan, Green Goblin III, Felicity Hardy, Sandra Healy, Hobgoblin, J2, Chris Jarkoer, Jubilee, Kaine, Milton Kaplan, Killerwatt, Davida Kirby, Ladyhawk I, Ladyhawk II, Mad Dog, Mainframe, Donna Mansfield, Moose Mansfield, Brad Miller, Mindworm, Mister Abnormal, Heather Noble, Nova, Ben Parker, Raptor, Richie Robertson, Sabreclaw, Simian, Spanner, Spider-Girl, Spider-Man, Stinger, Thena, Gene Thompson, Thunderstrike, Torque, Phil Urich (Golden Goblin?), Warp, Kristy Watson, Mary Jane Watson-Parker, Wes Westin, Wild Thing, Jimmy Yama


Synopsis:
1: Recap page

2-3: Spider-Girl foils a robbery at an electronics store.

4: Mindworm is with Hobgoblin. He is probing May's thoughts.

5: May heads to a cafe to meet with friends. Someone is stalking her.

6: Kristy Watson welcomes Normie Osborn and Brenda Drago home from their honeymoon.

7-8: May & friends celebrate Moose's return to Midtown.

9-12: As May makes her way home, Mindworm causes her to hallucinate and think several of her enemies are attacking her. May arrives home and learns that Normie has arranged for a specialist, Dr. Kaplan, to look into her brother's hearing problem. Mindworm invades her mind as she falls asleep.

13-14: May has a strange dream in which she has become the new Black Tarantula.

15: May wakes up and gets ready for school. Hobgoblin goes after Dr. Kaplan.

16-21: At school, Davida reveals to May that she only asked out Wes to spur May into action. May falls asleep in class and continues her Black Tarantula dream. After waking up, she sees Gene with Simone DeSantos. May calls her parents and learns that Dr. Kaplan has been kidnapped. She sets out to try to find him.

22-23: May contacts all the superheroes she knows to ask for help in tracking down Dr. Kaplan.

24-26: Spider-Girl shakes down criminals for information. Meanwhile, Mindworm has been working on pushing her emotions over the top. Doc Magus appears in astral form to warn May about a high level of psychic energy in the area, but she ignores him.

27-29: Spider-Girl arrives at a warehouse and hallucinates that a number of her old enemies are attacking her. She is knocked unconscious.

30-35: May's Black Tarantula dream continues and she is being held in an elaborate water-filled trap by Chesbro. May begins to break free of Mindworm's control. She breaks free of the trap and finds Mindworm and Hobgoblin holding Dr. Kaplan hostage. Mindworm senses that a large group of superheroes are approaching, so he and Hobgoblin flee.

36-37: Back home, May learns that Dr. Kaplan believes Ben's hearing loss is reversible. Someone is stalking May in the shadows outside her house.

38: Chesbro informs the Black Tarantula that the Hobgoblin has learned of the Heart of the Spider. The Black Tarantula believes that Spider-Girl is working with the Hobgoblin.


Continuity Notes:
This issue takes place over two consecutive days, divided by May's first Black Tarantula dream. It happens shortly after the previous issue.

------------------------------

Amazing Spider-Girl #16: Broken Bonds
Script, Plot & Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz
Inks: Sal Buscema 


Characters Appearing:
Black Tarantula, Chesbro, Crimelord, Deadspot, Vinnie Drasco, Fancy Dan, Hobgoblin, Daniel Kingsley, Mindworm, Benjamin Parker, Mr. Slattery, Spider-Girl, Spider-Man, Gene Thompson, Mary Jane Watson-Parker


Synopsis:
1: Recap page

2-3: A Senator is murder by the invisible assassin, Deadspot. Deadspot looks at her next assignment and learns that it is Spider-Girl. 

4-5: Spider-Girl is staking out the fashion district, looking for Daniel Kingsley.

6: The Hobgoblin and Mindworm are holding Daniel hostage.

7-8: May tells Peter that Ben's Spider-powers have been emerging. She and MJ leave for school. Someone is stalking her.

9: Chesbro learns that the Black Tarantula has targeted Spider-Girl for assassination.

10: Mary Jane meets with Mr. Slattery before beginning her new job at the school.

11: Fancy Dan is contacted by a mysterious individual about purchasing the Fisk files. Mindworm is secretly there, posing as Fancy Dan's assistant.

12: May runs into Gene at school. He tells her that he wishes they could get back together.

13: Mindworm tells Hobgoblin about the Fisk files auction. Hobgoblin contacts Detective Drasco and tells him to locate the files.

14-21: Chesbro calls May and tells her that she's been targeted for assassination. She meets with him in person and he shows her a file on Deadspot. After she leaves, Deadspot appears and threatens to kill Chesbro. Spider-Girl bursts back in and they fight. Deadspot disappear into a crowd of people and then changes out of costume to escape.

22: Spider-Girl searches for Deadspot and then returns home, where someone is still stalking her.


Continuity Notes:
The first scene presumably happens shortly after the conclusion of the previous issue. The rest of the issue occurs "two days later" and the previous issue's events were "a few days ago". 

Minor spoiler:
In issue #20 May's mysterious stalker is revealed as Sara Hingle. I've included a listing for her below.
------------------------------

Amazing Spider-Girl #17: A Matter of Trust!
Script, Plot & Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz
Inks: Sal Buscema 


Characters Appearing:
Black Tarantula (VO), Chesbro, Cornell Cottonmouth, Crimelord, Deadspot, Delilah, Vinnie Drasco, Courtney Duran, Fancy Dan, Hobgoblin, Milton Kaplan, Davida Kirby, Charlie Kurkle, Man-Mountain Marko, Mindworm, Benjamin Parker, Spider-Girl, Spider-Man, Gene Thompson, Handsome Richie Valentine, Mary Jane Watson-Parker


Synopsis:
1: Recap

2-3: Spider-Girl is searching the city for Deadspot. She meets her parents at Dr. Kaplan's office where they are discussing Ben's upcoming surgery.

4-6: The Crimelord tells Handsome Richie about the upcoming auction for the Fisk files. Richie then tells Chesbro about it.

7: At home, May learns that Ben's surgery is scheduled for the next day.

8: Mindworm schemes with Hobgoblin to mentally ensnare all of the city's crime bosses.

9: May talks to Davida at School. Gene shows up and asks May if she wants to get back together.

10: Cottonmouth talks to Chesbro on the phone and tells him the details of the auction.

11-14: After talking with Detective Drasco, Spider-Girl follows Charlie Kurkle home to his apartment where he lives with Mona. She suspects that one of them might have given a copy of the Fisk files to the Crimelord. 

15: Peter and MJ leave with Ben to check into the hospital. Davida and Courtney show up to keep May company.

16-18: Deadspot receives a new assignment from her employer. After Davida and Courtney leave, May goes out for a swing. She tracks Detective Drasco to the auction, where she is surprised by the Hobgoblin.

19: Various crime lords file into the auction house.

20-22: Spider-Girl and Hobgoblin battle outside. Hobgoblin traps Spider-Girl in a shrink-wrap bomb. He bursts into the auction and throws the bound Spider-Girl on stage as an auction bid.


Continuity Notes:
Pages 2-6 occur on Thursday, 7-15 on Friday, and 16-22 early Saturday morning.

------------------------------

Amazing Spider-Girl #18: My Ally, My Enemy!
Script, Plot & Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz
Inks: Sal Buscema 


Characters Appearing:
Cottonmouth, Crimelord, Deadspot, Delilah, Vinnie Drasco, Fancy Dan, Hobgoblin, Milton Kaplan, Davida Kirby, Charlie Kurkle, Man-Mountain Marko, Mindworm, Benjamin Parker, Captain Ruiz, Spider-Girl, Spider-Man, Gene Thompson, Mary Jane Watson-Parker, Wes Westin


Synopsis:
1-2: Spider-Girl tries to fight her way out of the shrink-wrap. Crimelord and Hobgoblin argue over Hobgoblin's uninvited interruption of the auction.

3: Recap

4-5: Crimelord attacks Hobgoblin. Mindworm turns the tables by revealing that he has control of all the crime bosses. He then double-crosses Hobgoblin.

6-9: Ben is about to go into surgery. Peter and MJ worry because May hasn't showed up. Because he is hopelessly outnumbered, Hobgoblin frees Spider-Girl. The two of them battle the crimelords.

10: Davida breaks up with Wes, because he's really interested in May. She tells him to go to the hospital to give May some support.

11-13: The fight continues until the police burst in. The Crimelord flees and May pursues.

14-17: Charlie Kurkle holds up the Crimelord at gunpoint and demands the files. Deadspot appears and kills Charlie. The Crimelord pulls off her mask and reveals herself to be Mona. Spider-Girl shows up and attacks Deadspot, disabling her invisiblity and knocking her out.

18-20: Mona reveals that she never had the files and it was all a con. The police take Mona away. Mindworm escaped the police raid, but Hobgoblin corners him and kills him for his betrayal.

21-22: May arrives at the hospital and learns that the surgery was successful. Wes is there and attempts to talk with her, but she ditches him when Gene shows up.


Continuity Notes:
The issue occurs in a single day, continuing directly from the previous issue.

------------------------------

Chronology entries:

American Dream/Shannon Carter
. . .
AVN 5
FFIVE2 4
*ASG 15

Angry Eagle
. . .
LPS 4
LPS 5
*ASG 15

Arana
SMF 1-FB (4-9)
SMF 1
*ASG 14

Argo
. . .
AVN 4
AVN 5-BTS
*ASG 15

Babbit, Mr.
ASG 1
ASG 4
*ASG 15

Black Tarantula/Fabian LeMuerto
. . .
ASG 5
ASG 6-FB (8:1-8:5)
*ASG 15
*ASG 16
*ASG 17-VO

Blacklight/Kendra Freeman
. . .
SG 59
SG 92
*ASG 15

Bluestreak
. . .
AVN 5
FFIVE2 4
*ASG 15

Brady, Meagyn
. . .
SG 89
SG 96
*ASG 15

Buzz/Jack "J.J." Jameson
. . .
AVN 4
AVN 5-BTS
*ASG 15

*Carlo, Mona <- deleted, moved to Crimelord

Chesbro
. . .
ASG 6-FB (8:1-8:5)
ASG 6
*ASG 15
*ASG 16
*ASG 17

Coal Tiger/T'Chaka
. . .
SG 58
SG 92
*ASG 15

*Cottonmouth, Cornell
*ASG 17
*ASG 18

*Crimelord/Mona Carlo <- previously listed as Mona Carlo
*ASG 16
*ASG 17
*ASG 18

Darkdevil/Reilly Tyne
. . .
ASG 10
ASG 12
*ASG 15

*Deadspot
*ASG 16
*ASG 17
*ASG 18

*Delilah
*ASG 17
*ASG 18

DeSantos, Simone 
. . .
ASG 5
ASG 9
*ASG 13
*ASG 14
*ASG 15

Doc Magus/Dormagus
. . .
AVN 4
AVN 5-BTS
*ASG 15

Drasco, Detective Vinnie
. . .
ASG 7
ASG 10
*ASG 15
*ASG 16
*ASG 17
*ASG 18

Duran, Courtney Marie
. . .
ASG 10
ASG 12
*ASG 14
*ASG 15
*ASG 17

Earth Sentry/John Foster
. . .
AVN 4
AVN 5
*ASG 15

Earthshaker
. . .
ASG 11
ASG 12
*ASG 15

*Fancy Dan
*ASG 16
*ASG 17
*ASG 18

Freebooter/Brandon Cross
. . .
AVN 4
AVN 5-BTS
*ASG 15

Gelcan
ASG 4
ASG 5
*ASG 15

Green Goblin II/Phil Urich/Golden Goblin
. . .
AVN 5-BTS
ASG 4
*ASG 15

Green Goblin III/Norman "Normie" Osborn
. . .
SG 99
SG 100
*ASG 15

Healy, Sandra
. . .
SG 88
SG 89
*ASG 15

Hingle, Sara
ASG 1
ASG 8
*ASG 15
*ASG 16

Hobgoblin/Roderick Kingsley
. . .
ASG 6 (12-18)
ASG 7
*ASG 13
*ASG 14
*ASG 15
*ASG 16
*ASG 17
*ASG 18

J2/Zane Yama/Zane Marko
. . .
FFIVE2 4
FFIVE2 5-FB (6:3)
*ASG 15

Jarkoer, Chris
. . .
SG 89
SG 97
*ASG 15

Jubilee
. . .
LPS 4
LPS 5
*ASG 15

Kaine
. . .
ASG 10
ASG 12
*ASG 13
*ASG 15

*Kaplan, Dr. Milton
*ASG 15
*ASG 17
*ASG 18

Killerwatt
. . .
ASG 11
ASG 12
*ASG 15

Kingsley, Daniel 
. . .
ASG 5
ASG 7
*ASG 13
*ASG 16

Kirby, Davida Jacqueline
. . .
ASG 9
ASG 10
*ASG 13
*ASG 14
*ASG 15
*ASG 17
*ASG 18

Kurkle, Charles "Charlie"
ASG 1
ASG 3
*ASG 17
*ASG 18

LadyHawk I/Regina
. . .
SG 99
ASG 7
*ASG 15

LadyHawk II/Rosetta
. . .
SG 99
ASG 7
*ASG 15

Mad Dog
ASG 4
ASG 5
*ASG 15

Mainframe
. . .
FFIVE2 4
FFIVE2 5
*ASG 15

*Man-Mountain Marko
*ASG 17
*ASG 18

Mansfield, Donna
ASG 9
ASG 12
*ASG 14
*ASG 15

Mansfield, Maurice Arthur "Moose"
. . .
ASG 11
ASG 12
*ASG 13
*ASG 14
*ASG 15

Miguel
SMF 1-FB (5:3-9)
SMF 1
*ASG 14

Miller, Brad
. . .
SG 96
ASG 9
*ASG 15

*Mindworm/William Turner
*ASG 13
*ASG 14
*ASG 15
*ASG 16
*ASG 17
*ASG 18

Mister Abnormal
. . .
ASG 11
ASG 12
*ASG 15

Noble, Heather
. . .
ASG 8
ASG 9
*ASG 15

Nova/Richard Rider
. . .
AVN 4
AVN 5
*ASG 15

Parker, Benjamin Richard
. . .
ASG 11
ASG 12
*ASG 13
*ASG 14
*ASG 15
*ASG 16
*ASG 17
*ASG 18

Psilord/Franklin Richards
. . .
FFIVE2 4
FFIVE2 5
*ASG 14

Raptor/Brenda "Blackie" Drago
. . .
SG 99
AVN 4
*ASG 15

Robertson, Richie
. . .
SG 71
SG 98
*ASG 15

Ruiz, Captain "Rigger"
. . .
ASG 4
ASG 10
*ASG 15

Sabreclaw/Hudson Logan
. . .
AVN 5
FFIVE2 4
*ASG 15

Scarlet Spider II/Felicity Hardy
. . .
ASG 3
ASG 6-FB (6-7, 8:6-8:8)
*ASG 15

Simian
. . .
SG 58
SG 67
*ASG 15

Slattery, Mr.
. . .
ASG 9
ASG 10
*ASG 16

Spanner
. . .
SG 59
SG 67
*ASG 15

Spider-Girl/May "Mayday" Parker
. . .
ASG 11
ASG 12
*ASG 13
*ASG 14
*ASG 15
*ASG 16
*ASG 17
*ASG 18

Spider-Man/Peter Parker
. . .
ASG 11
ASG 12
*ASG 13
*ASG 15
*ASG 16
*ASG 17
*ASG 18

Stinger/Cassie Lang
. . .
AVN 5
FFIVE2 4
*ASG 15

Thena
. . .
AVN 5
FFIVE2 4
*ASG 15

Thompson, Eugene, "Gene"
. . .
ASG 8
ASG 9
*ASG 13
*ASG 14
*ASG 15
*ASG 16
*ASG 17
*ASG 18

Thunderstrike/Kevin Masterson
. . .
AVN 5
FFIVE2 4
*ASG 15

Torque
. . .
SG 67
LPS 5
*ASG 15

Valentine, "Handsome" Richie
. . .
SG 77
ASG 3
*ASG 17

Warp
. . .
AVN 5
FFIVE2 5-FB (6:3)
*ASG 15

Watson, Kristy
. . .
SG 98
SG 100
*ASG 15

Watson-Parker, Mary Jane 
. . .
ASG 11
ASG 12
*ASG 13
*ASG 14
*ASG 15
*ASG 16
*ASG 17'
*ASG 18

Weadon, Arthur 
. . .
ASG 9
ASG 10
*ASG 13

Westin, Wes 
. . .
ASG 8
ASG 9
*ASG 13
*ASG 14
*ASG 15
*ASG 18

Wild Thing/Rina Logan
. . .
AVN 4
AVN 5-BTS
*ASG 15

Yama, Jimmy
. . .
ASG 8
ASG 9
*ASG 15

-Mike

			*	*	*

Thread 33

Subject: Amazing Spider-Girl #19

May 19, 2008 11:10 am 
By michaelyuri

Amazing Spider-Girl #19: There Can Only Be One!
Script, Plot & Pencils: Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz
Inks: Sal Buscema


Characters Appearing:
Arana, Simone DeSantos, Courtney Duran, Sara Hingle, Davida Kirby, Miguel, Spider-Girl, Spider-Man, Gene Thompson, Phil Urich


Synopsis:
1: Recap page

2-3: May and Peter talk about May's recent activities as Spider-Girl.

4: Arana learns that the Black Tarantula wasn't present at the auction in #18.

5-7: At school, May learns that Sara Hingle has returned to Midtown, but she is interrupted by Gene before she has a chance to talk with Sara.

8: Arana sends out her flunkies to track down Spider-Girl.

9-10: May goes to watch Gene at football practice, but gets bored and leaves. On her way out she is invited to come out for the dance squad.

11-21: While swinging around the city, May spots several men with binoculars watching her. When she confronts one of them, she is attacked by Arana. Arana taunts Spider-Girl to fight, while May attempts to disengage. Eventually, Arana tells May that Spider-Man did a bad job training her. This goads May into fighting Arana, who she eventually defeats and leaves webbed up.

22: May calls Peter and tells him that she wants to start formally training with him again. She then meets up with Gene after football practice.


Notes:
This issue takes place in a single day, not long after the events of the previous issue.
In the first scene, Peter is holding a newspaper with a frontpage story about the auction raid from issue #18. The paper is dated Tuesday, March 28, but this has to be topical -- the story takes place in the fall. 

For no apparent reason, Arana's sidekick Miguel is repeatedly referred to as Michael in this issue.

------------------------------

Chronology entries:

Arana
SMF 1-FB (4-9)
SMF 1
ASG 14
*ASG 19

DeSantos, Simone
. . .
ASG 14
ASG 15
*ASG 19

Duran, Courtney Marie
. . .
ASG 15
ASG 17
*ASG 19

Green Goblin II/Phil Urich/Golden Goblin
. . .
ASG 4
ASG 15
*ASG 19

Hingle, Sara
. . .
ASG 15
ASG 16
*ASG 19

Kirby, Davida Jacqueline
. . .
ASG 17
ASG 18
*ASG 19

Miguel
SMF 1-FB (5:3-9)
SMF 1
ASG 14
*ASG 19

Spider-Girl/May "Mayday" Parker
. . .
ASG 17
ASG 18
*ASG 19

Spider-Man/Peter Parker
. . .
ASG 17
ASG 18
*ASG 19

Thompson, Eugene "Gene"
. . .
ASG 17
ASG 18
*ASG 19

-Mike

			*	*	*

Thread 34

Subject: Amazing Spider-Man Magazine #1

May 19, 2008 2:09 pm 
By michaelyuri

Amazing Spider-Man Magazine #1 (2007) is composed of reprint material with the exception of one original Spider-Girl story. The cover and table of contents refer to this book as Spider-Man Magazine, but the indicia lists it as Amazing Spider-Man Magazine. The book isn't numbered, but apparently this issue is the first of four similar reprint books published in 2007-2008: http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/title/s ... ne_v2.html

The first three stories in the book are reprints from Marvel Adventures Spider-Man, Marvel Adventures Avengers, and Franklin Richards: Son of a Genius. The fourth story is a Spider-Girl story by Tom DeFalco. This five-page story is primarily prose, not a comic, however, it is illustrated with five individual panels. I'm not sure whether this story qualifies for an MCP listing, but assuming it does, here's an analysis:

"The Dance" 
Story by Tom DeFalco
Art by Ron Lim, Scott Koblish, and Rob Ro

A brief synopsis of the story is available here: 
http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/reviews ... 001-b.html


Here's a breakdown of the illustrations:

Page 1, Panel 1: Claw and Spider-Girl battle
Claw
Spider-Girl

Page 2, Panel 1: Decorating for the school dance
Simone DeSantos
Davida Kirby
Spider-Girl

Page 3, Panel 1: May feeding Ben dinner
Benjamin Parker
Spider-Girl
Spider-Man
Mary Jane Watson-Parker

Page 5, Panel 1: Spider-Man and Spider-Girl defeat Claw
Claw
Spider-Girl
Spider-Man

Page 5, Panel 2: May and Wes dance
Spider-Girl
Wes Westin


The following characters are present in the story, but are not shown in the illustrations:

Meagyn Brady, Courtney Duran, Heather Noble, Phil Urich, Jimmy Yama


Continuity Notes:
This story takes place between ASG 13 & ASG 14. In ASG 13, Davida is elected school president, she and May discuss the upcoming dance, and May and Gene break up. In ASG 14, Gene is already dating Simone, and Davida asks May if there's something between her and Wes, which is probably a reference to the dance.


Chronology entries:

*ASMMAG = Amazing Spider-Man Magazine

Brady, Meagyn
. . .
SG 89
SG 96
*ASMMAG 1/4-BTS
ASG 15

Claw
SG 73
*ASMMAG 1/4

DeSantos, Simone
. . .
ASG 9
ASG 13
*ASMMAG 1/4
ASG 14
ASG 15
ASG 19

Duran, Courtney Marie
. . .
ASG 10
ASG 12
*ASMMAG 1/4-BTS
ASG 14
ASG 15
. . .

Green Goblin II/Phil Urich/Golden Goblin
. . .
AVN 5-BTS
ASG 4
*ASMMAG 1/4-BTS
ASG 15
ASG 19

Kirby, Davida Jacqueline
. . .
ASG 10
ASG 13
*ASMMAG 1/4
ASG 14
ASG 15
. . .

Noble, Heather
. . .
ASG 8
ASG 9
*ASMMAG 1/4-BTS
ASG 15

Parker, Benjamin Richard
. . .
ASG 12
ASG 13
*ASMMAG 1/4
ASG 14
ASG 15
. . .

Spider-Girl/May "Mayday" Parker
. . .
ASG 12
ASG 13
*ASMMAG 1/4
ASG 14
ASG 15
. . .

Spider-Man/Peter Parker
. . .
ASG 12
ASG 13
*ASMMAG 1/4
ASG 15
ASG 16
. . .

Watson-Parker, Mary Jane
ASG 12
ASG 13
*ASMMAG 1/4
ASG 14
ASG 15
. . .

Westin, Wes
. . .
ASG 9
ASG 13
*ASMMAG 1/4
ASG 14
ASG 15
ASG 18

Yama, Jimmy
. . .
ASG 8
ASG 9
*ASMMAG 1/4-BTS
ASG 15

-Mike

			*	*	*

Thread 35

Subject: Wolverine v3 62-65

May 21, 2008 11:07 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine v3 #62
April, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Mystique, Cyclops

Synopsis: 
pg1-pg3-FB: 1921
Logan, in a Mexico prison, is awoken, blindfolded, and taken outside to be executed. He's placed next to a blindfolded Mystique, they start to chat, and the firing squad does it's job. 
Pg4-pg9: now
Mystique, disguised as Wolverine, storms into a village in Afganistan looking for Mystique. She/he kills a woman in front of a bunch of villagers. 
Pg10-pg16-FB: three days earlier
Cyclops and Wolverine chat about Mystique and her most recent betrayal to the X-Men. Wolverine agrees to hunt her down. Eight hours later he confronts her in Iran. She gets away and blows up a building, leaving Wolverine to tend to the wounded citizens. 
pg17-pg18-FB-FB: 1921
Since the firing squad didn't kill him, Logan has killed the firing squad. He & Raven then head off for the nearest bar.
Pg19-pg23: now, following pg9
Wolverine follows Mystiques scent into Afganistan and is attacked by villagers, while Mystique watches from afar, still disguised as Wolverine. 

References: 
Page count does NOT include the text-only recap page. 

Placement suggestions were made for the 1921 FBs here, and wolframbane reminded me that X: TF 3 needs to be moved in Mystiques chronology. 

For the current day stuff, this should happen before X-Force #1. Wolverine thinks Cyclops is going to send the new X-Force after Mystique, but Wolverine wants to go alone.(X-Force was unveiled during Messiah CompleX, this is after Messiah CompleX) By the time X-Force #1 rolls around, Wolverine is trying to talk Cyclops into not having the rest of the team kill anyone, he should be the one to do that kind of stuff. 

Wolverine v3 #63
May, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Mystique

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5-FB: 1921
Logan and Raven stroll through Kansas City while Mystique tries to talk him into joining her group of swindlers. 
pg6-pg7: now
Wolverine is dragged away by his assailants. 
Pg8: ten minutes ago
Wolverine is shot up by an angry mob. 
Pg9-pg10: now
Wolverine heals up and continues his hunt. 
Pg11-pg16: two days later
Wolverine tracks down Mystique again, but she gets away again. 
Pg17-pg18-FB: 1921
With Logan not yet convinced, Raven tries a more... aggressive approach.
Pg19-pg22: same day as pg16
Posing as a prostitute, Mystique kills and replaces an American Senator. Wolverine shows up two hours later to find the Senators body. 
Pg23: the next day
Wolverine pays a visit to an old friend. 

References: 
Placement suggestions were made for the 1921 FBs here. 

Wolverine v3 #64
June, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Mystique

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3-FB: 1921
Logan and Raven evade the police while planning to knock over a bank. 
Pg4-pg6: the day after end of last issue
Wolverine blows himself up in a car! 
Pg7-FB: same day as end of last issue
Wolverine plans to blow himself up in a car! 
Pg8-pg17: now, following pg6
Wolverines charred body is brought to Baghdads military and diplomatic headquarters to be identified. Wolverine then gets out of his bodybag and finds Mystique disguised as the senator. They fight and she escapes. 
Pg18-pg20-FB: 1921
Logan and Raven rob a bank but the police show up. 
Pg21-pg22: now, following pg17
Mystique gets naked! 

Wolverine v3 #65
July, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Mystique

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3-FB: 1921
The police shoot up Ravens team while they rob the bank. 
Pg4-pg13: now, same day as end of last issue
Wolverine fights a naked Mystique. After shooting and stabbing each other, Mystique vomits green stuff all over Wolverines face and they both collapse. 
Pg14-pg18-FB: 1921
Logan is paid off by the police as the rest of Ravens team is killed. Later, he hops on a train to leave, but is kicked off by Raven. 
Pg19-pg23: now
Wolverine wakes up to find Mystique bleeding to death. He leaves her a loaded gun to die in the desert. 

For the current day, after Messiah CompleX and before X-Factor #1. For the 1921 FlashBacks: 

MYSTIQUE/RAVEN DARKHOLME/"MALLORY BRICKMAN"/"B. BYRON BIGGS"/"RONNIE LAKE"/"DALE FYFE" 
*W3 62 (1-3)-FB (1921) 
*W3 62 (17-18)-FB-FB
*W3 63 (1-5)-FB
*W3 63 (17-18)-FB 
*W3 64 (1-3)-FB
*W3 64 (18-20)-FB
*W3 65 (1-3)-FB
*W3 65 (14-18)-FB (1921) 
**X:TF 3 (1936) 
UX 428
XMF 4
...

WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT 
...
W: O 17 (5-8)-FB 
W3 57-FB (04/22/1915) 
W3 58-FB
W3 59-FB
W3 60-FB
*W3 62 (1-3)-FB (1921)
*W3 62 (17-18)-FB-FB
*W3 63 (1-5)-FB (1921)
*W3 63 (17-18)-FB
*W3 64 (1-3)-FB
*W3 64 (18-20)-FB
*W3 65 (1-3)-FB
*W3 65 (14-18)-FB (1921) 
W2 113-FB
M/CP 154-FB
W2 126 (8)-FB 
W: O @1-FB (1932) 
...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 21, 2008 11:22 pm 
By dimadick

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Posing as a prostitute, Mystique kills and replaces an American Senator. Wolverine shows up two hours later to find the Senators body. 
<<<

The Senator is given the last name "Brickman". Mystique had formerly posed as the wife of Senator Miles Ralph Brickman. Are you sure the killed character is not her former husband?

			*	*	*

May 22, 2008 12:32 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

The hair color is different, but it's probably the same Senator Brickman.(it's black in Cable Annual '98 but light brown here)

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 36

Subject: Wolverine: Amazing Immortal Man & Other Bloody Tales 1

May 22, 2008 12:59 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine: the Amazing Immortal Man & Other Bloody Tales #1
July, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg11: Kansas, 1930s
Logan is a caged attraction in a travelling circus. When one of the women goes into labor he tries to get her to a hospital, but the circus guys are too busy robbing a bank. The woman dies and Logan goes back to his wandering. 

References: 
This takes place entirely in the 1930s, theres no present day framing sequence. 

Wolverine: the Amazing Immortal Man & Other Bloody Tales #1/2

Appearances: 
Wolverine

Synopsis: 
Pg1pn1(of 2)
A bus driver sports a Wolverine haircut and sideburns and thinks back
Pg1pn2-pg4-FB
A fight breaks out on a bus and Wolverine steps in, beating the crap out of the hooligans. The bus driver is injured, but remembers how cool the hairy guy was. 
Pg5-FB: 32 hours later
The bus driver wakes up in the hospital. 
Pg6-FB: a few weeks later
The bus driver works out and builds himself a set of claws. 
Pg7pn1(of 4)-FB: a few months later
The bus driver has grown out his hair and is ready to go back to work. 
Pg7pn2-pg11: now, following pg1pn1
The bus driver tries to fight evil by stopping a rape, but ends up getting himself killed. 

References: 
Wolverine only appears in the FlashBack. 

Bare trees in New York, a guy outside is wearing a Punisher hoodie on pg1pn1. 

Wolverine: the Amazing Immortal Man & Other Bloody Tales #1/3

Appearances: 
Wolverine

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg11
Wolverine chases a crazy guy around Coney Island to discover hes been infested by an alien parasite baby. 

References: 
Coney Island is PACKED, really busy, and people are wearing summer clothes. 

For the first story: 

WOLVERINE/LOGAN/JAMES HOWLETT

W2 113-FB 
*W: AIM&OBT 1
W2 126 (8)-FB 
W: O @1-FB (1932)


As for the second and third story, they could really go anywhere in Wolverines current chronology. And yes, the full title in the indicia is Wolverine: the Amazing Immortal Man & Other Bloody Tales #1. -Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 37

Subject: Franklin Richards: Not-So-Secret Invasion 1

May 22, 2008 2:02 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Franklin Richards: Not-So-Secret Invasion #1
July, 2008

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, H.E.R.B.I.E., Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Human Torch, Thing, Skrull

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5
Franklins acting strangely, so H.E.R.B.I.E. follows him around. When confronted, Franklin zaps H.E.R.B.I.E.. The real Franklin appears and traps the other Franklin, who reveals himself to be a Skrull. The Skrull teleports away and Franklin tells the revived H.E.R.B.I.E. to clean up the mess. 

References: 
It would have been nice of Franklin bothered to tell his parents about the Skrull, maybe the full Skrull Invasion could have been avoided

Franklin Richards: Not-So-Secret Invasion #1/2

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, H.E.R.B.I.E.

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5
Franklins watching Krakatoa vs. Mondotron when his lizard eats some radioactive stuff and grows to super-size. Franklin & H.E.R.B.I.E. get in a giant robot suit and put the lizard to sleep by rubbing its belly. 

References: 
Green grass and trees in Central Park. 

Franklin Richards: Not-So-Secret Invasion #1/3

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, H.E.R.B.I.E.

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5
Getting ready for his soccer game, Franklin avoids temptation in his fathers lab by not grabbing a pair of super-kicking cleats. He does however, grab the wrong soccer ball. Later the day at the game the ball hatches a baby dinosaur, and Franklin & H.E.R.B.I.E. catch it in the goals net. 

Franklin Richards: Not-So-Secret Invasion #1/4

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, H.E.R.B.I.E., Squid Kid

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5
Franklins working on his homework when he gets a call from Squid Kid. Franklin thinks hes introuble so he and H.E.R.B.I.E. shoot over to help out. As it turns out Squid Kid is getting married, and when the ceremony is over H.E.R.B.I.E. reminds Franklin of his homework. 

Franklin Richards: Not-So-Secret Invasion #1/5

Appearances: 
Franklin Richards, H.E.R.B.I.E., Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Human Torch, Thing, Wizard(Bentley Wittman), Roberta

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg5
The Wizard has defeated the Fantastic Four! Theyre trapped and powerless until H.E.R.B.I.E. come along and saves the day with Robertas(the robot receptionist) help.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 38

Subject: Ghost Rider v6 20-23

May 22, 2008 8:28 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Ghost Rider v6 #20
April, 2008

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Johnny Blaze), Lucas Collier

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4
Johnny Blaze confesses his sins to a priest. 
Pg5-pg22: two weeks later
Trying to figure out how to get into heaven, Johnny stops at a gas station where the attendant tells him about Lucas. Lucas is afraid of angels, which gets Johnnys attention. He makes his way to the hospital and runs into resistance with the head nurse. He turns into Ghost Rider and gets Lucas out of there. Meanwhile, two motorists are attacked by cannibalistic ghosts. 

References: 
Theres no concrete mention of how much time has passed, but it seems that this picksup fairly recently after the end of last issue. 

Ghost Rider v6 #21
May, 2008

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Johnny Blaze), Lucas Collier

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg3: day after end of last issue
The police blame the remains of the motorists on coyotes. Meanwhile, Johnny and Lucas chat. 
Pg4pn1(of 5)-FB: a week or two ago, give or take
Lucas is treated by paramedics.(its explained that he died for a few minutes, went to heaven, but couldnt get in because the gate was locked. Heavens under siege by Zadkiel, who wants to run the place himself) 
Pg4pn2-pg22: same day as pg3
Johnny and Lucas are attacked by the nurses from the hospital. Meanwhile, a new police officer looks into the history of the highway by questioning the mortician. The mortician cuts off the officers hand and starts to eat it. Meanwhile, Ghost Rider fights the machine gun toting nurses on the haunted highway. 

Ghost Rider v6 #22
June, 2008

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Johnny Blaze), Lucas Collier, Dan Ketch

Synopsis: 
Pg1-FB
A young Johnny Blaze finds a satanic bible when a dead homeless man is dragged away from carnival grounds. 
Pg2-pg22: same day as last issue
Ghost Rider fights the nurses while the cannibalistic ghosts attack him, the nurses, and Lucas. Meanwhile, the head nurse checks in with Zadkiels lieutenant Dan Ketch. Elsewhere, the mortician eats the officers hand while driving out of town. Meanwhile, everyone converges into the middle of town

References: 
I would say this FlashBack should be sometime before GR2 68 (6:3-6:5)-FB, where Johnny checks out some books on the occult. Meaning, he finds this one, and later checks out others just to find theyre full of crap, too. 

Ghost Rider v6 #23
July, 2008

Appearances: 
Ghost Rider(Johnny Blaze), Lucas Collier, Dan Ketch

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg19: same night as last issue
Theres a major car crash in the middle of town when a bus, the mortician, and Ghost Rider all run into each other at high speeds. Ghost Rider kills the rest of the nurses, but the head nurse dissolves.(shes being called back home) Ghost Rider uses his penance stare on the cop and Lucas kills himself, not wanting to go to heaven. Ghost Rider then ties up the mortician and drags him across the highway, which satisfies the cannibalistic ghosts. 
Pg20-pg22: the next day
Dan Ketch chats with the gas station attendant while Johnny makes his way to another town. 

References: 
I didnt see a name for the head nurse, but I wouldnt be surprised if she popped up again in a future issue. She appears in all four of these issues, for future reference. 

Dan Ketch is now Zadkiel's lieutenant! Oh no! I'm sure the next issue or so will fill us in on what happened to him in the last ten years...

For the current stuff, following last issue. For the FlashBack to Johnnys younger days: 

GHOST RIDER III/JOHNNY BLAZE 
GR3 14 (14:1)-FB
GR6 5 (6:4 - 7)-FB 
GR3 14 (14:3)-FB
M/SPT 5 (7:3 - 7:4)-FB
GR6 5 (8:3 - 8:4)-FB 
M/SPT 5 (8:1 - 8:2)-FB
GR3 -1
GR6 5 (13:2 - 13:6)-FB 
*GR6 22-FB
M/SPT 5 (8:3 - 9:5)-FB
GR2 68 (6:3 - 6:5)-FB
...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 39

Subject: May call for analyses

May 01, 2008 7:13 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Mayday! Mayday! Volunteers needed for issue analyses!
As always, many thanks to those who contribute, continued encouragement for more analysts, and a note to let me know if I've messed anything up.  

Completed stories (as of 5/1/08)
Annihilation: Conquest #1-6 (Somebody)
Annihilation: Conquest  Quasar #1-4 (Somebody)
Annihilation: Conquest  Wraith #1-4 (Somebody)
Daredevil: Battlin Jack Murdock #1-4 (JD)
Daredevil: Dead On Arrival (Jeph)
Immortal Iron Fist #10-14 (Don)

Future stuff
Angel: Revelations #1-5
ClanDestine v2 #1-5 (Don)
Daredevil v2 #107-110 (Col_Fury)
Dead of Night Featuring Man-Thing #1-4
Eternals, v? #1-?
Foolkiller v2 #1-5
Foolkiller: Short Time #1-5
Franklin Richards: Not-So-Secret Invasion
Ghost Rider v6 #20-23 (Col_Fury)
Ghost Rider v6 #24
Ghost Rider v6 #25
Guardians of the Galaxy v2 #1-?
Hulk: Raging Thunder
Immortal Iron Fist #16
Immortal Iron Fist #17-20
Moon Knight v5 #14-19
Moon Knight v5 #20
Nova v4 #8-12 and Nova Annual #1 (Somebody)
Nova v4 #13-15
Punisher v7 #56-59 (Col_Fury)
Punisher War Journal v2 #18-23
Punisher Max: Little Black Book
Runaways v2 #25-30 (JD)
Skaar: Son of Hulk #1-? (Kevin)
Spider-Man Family v2 #9 (michaelyuri)
True Believers #1-5
Wolverine v3 #66-73 (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: Dangerous Game (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: Origins #21-25 (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: Origins #26-27 (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: The Amazing Immortal Man and Other Bloody Tales (Col_Fury)
X-Men Origin: Colossus (wolframbane)

Paul B.

			*	*	*

May 01, 2008 1:36 pm 
By michaelyuri

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Spider-Man Family v2 #9
<<<

I'll do this one.

-Mike

			*	*	*

May 01, 2008 2:15 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Conquests & Nova are coming, they're just taking a bit longer than I expected . I want to post them, if not in one splurge, at least close to one another...

			*	*	*

May 01, 2008 8:40 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Mayday! Mayday!You've been waiting all year to use that on May 1st, haven't you?  
<<<

Wolverine v3 #66-73 is set in a possible future, and will most likely not qualify for Project listings. There's always the possibility that there will be a present day framing sequence, so you might as well put me down for these. 

Ghost Rider v6 #20-23 has been a HUGE improvement over the previous nineteen issues, and I will happily be put down for these. 

I've been doing them lately, so you might as well put me down for Daredevil v2 #107-110, with the open option for Kevin to reclaim them if he wishes.  

And I'm sure I'll surprise you with a few others as they come out. 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 01, 2008 9:28 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

michaelyuri wrote:
>>>
Spider-Man Family v2 #9
I'll do this one.
<<<

Thanks, Mike!  


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Wolverine v3 #66-73 is set in a possible future, and will most likely not qualify for Project listings. There's always the possibility that there will be a present day framing sequence, so you might as well put me down for these. Ghost Rider v6 #20-23 has been a HUGE improvement over the previous nineteen issues, and I will happily be put down for these. I've been doing them lately, so you might as well put me down for Daredevil v2 #107-110, with the open option for Kevin to reclaim them if he wishes.
<<<

Thanks, Fury!  


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
You've been waiting all year to use that on May 1st, haven't you? 
<<<

Nope, just thought of it this morning. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

May 05, 2008 11:40 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I just thought I'd mention that Jeph offered to analyze Daredevil: Dead on Arrival, which would go under Completed Stories. 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 06, 2008 9:23 am 
By jephyork
Director

It arrived yesterday. Yay.

Full title is "Devil & Capitan America: Doppia Morte".

Gimme a few days.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

May 11, 2008 9:35 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Thor: Ages of Thunder - Reign of Blood
<<<

Thor: Ages of Thunder 1 is out, but it's to be continued in Thor: Reign of Blood in June. Also, I could have sworn this was set to be a series of three one-shots. Anyway, I'm not sure if it can be properly analyzed until all of them are out. If it helps, part of Ages of Thunder 1 takes place during the third Ragnarok, and the rest takes place during the eleventh Ragnarok. However that works. 

And no, I'm not volunteering yet. But hey, feel free to put me down for Wolverine: Origins #26-27.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 11, 2008 10:04 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Thor: Ages of Thunder - Reign of Blood
<<<

Thor: Ages of Thunder 1 is out, but it's to be continued in Thor: Reign of Blood in June. Also, I could have sworn this was set to be a series of three one-shots. Anyway, I'm not sure if it can be properly analyzed until all of them are out. If it helps, part of Ages of Thunder 1 takes place during the third Ragnarok, and the rest takes place during the eleventh Ragnarok. However that works. 
<<<


http://uk.comics.ign.com/articles/859/859919p1.html
>>>
"IGN Comics: What we're hearing so far is that the series deals with the past, present, and future of Thor. Can you clarify what that means?

Fraction: Yeah. It's really out-of-continuity, all about the cyclical, "the more things change the more they stay the same" nature of the Norse myths. Ragnarok happened,... and the whole cycle began again. We're looking at these same stories through different eras, with different looks and different experiences and different ways of looking at it that we've never seen before.

All of this actually predates Thor in a way. One of the stories is about an angry and petulant teenager, sort of a brutal Thor who is so disconnected from his humanity that Odin cursed him with a human life."
<<<

Basically, the two stories in the first book are the same story in different cycles, with each Ragnarok cycle ended by the reset button getting hit, and being in different cycles they go somewhat differently (basically, Frost Giant in disguise wants the Enchantress, Loki aids that, Odin makes Loki undo what he did, Thor smashes the FG's head in - but the details are very different).

So the Thor is not the Thor we know, but an earlier version of him [and characters get merged and separated, so that Idunn is the R11 Enchantress rather than Amora]. The presence of a relatively modern human (yes, Frost Giant in disguise, but none of the gods are shocked at the concept) in the R3 cycle implies that the whole Nine Worlds got reset at the end of a cycle (more in tune with the original Norse myths IIRC) [and that if "our" Thor hadn't smashed the Norns' weaving and stopped the reset during the last Ragnarok, Midgard would have been reset too].

			*	*	*

May 11, 2008 10:22 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Ahh... I get it. Thanks buddy!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 12, 2008 7:09 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Continued thanks to our volunteers. I updated the call and decided to delete Thor: Ages of Thunder/Reign of Blood from the calendar call list as it seems to have little relevance to post-FF 1 chronology (not to say that it isn't needed for the MCP).

Paul B.

			*	*	*

May 12, 2008 2:07 pm 
By Somebody
Director

PS: The Knaufs' Eternals series is v4 (v1 = Kirby, v2 = 1985 maxi, v3 = Gaiman)

			*	*	*

May 15, 2008 9:46 pm 
By wolframbane

I would like to do Colossus Origins. Everyone knows how much of a X-Men buff I am!!

			*	*	*

May 17, 2008 8:51 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

You got it, buddy. Thanks!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

May 24, 2008 2:18 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

>>>
Skaar: Son of Hulk #1-?
<<<

I had such a blast reading and doing analysis for "Planet Hulk". Can you put me down for the sequel, "Skaar: Son of Hulk"?!? 

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

May 24, 2008 4:03 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

It's all yours, Kevin. Thanks!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 40

Subject: Wolverine: Origins 21-25

May 22, 2008 11:32 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine: Origins #21
March, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Deadpool

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: San Francisco
Deadpool attacks Wolverine! 

Wolverine: Origins #22
April, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Deadpool

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: San Francisco
Wolverine fights Deadpool! 

Wolverine: Origins #23
May, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Deadpool, Winter Soldier

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: San Francisco
Wolverine and Deadpool fight each other! Meanwhile, the Winter Soldier looks at Captain Americas uniform. 

Wolverine: Origins #24
June, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Deadpool, Daken

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg7: San Francisco
Deadpool talks to a tied up Wolverine. 
Pg8-FB
A young Deadpool is yelled at by his drunk military father. 
Pg9-pg10: San Francisco
Deadpool talks to a tied up Wolverine. 
Pg11-pg12-FB
A young Deadpool teaches his drunk dad a lesson. 
Pg13-pg22
Deadpool talks to a tied up Wolverine. As hes about to try to kill Wolverine, Daken walks in. 

Wolverine: Origins #25
July, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Deadpool, Winter Soldier, Daken

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg22: San Francisco
Deadpool fights Daken, and Daken frees Wolverine. Wolverine gives a signal, and the Winter Soldier shoots Daken in the head with a Carbonadium bullet. Wolverine takes Daken and leaves Deadpool to heal, as he reveals that it was the Winter Soldier who hired Deadpool in the first place. 

References: 
Remember the shadowy figure in Wolverine: Origins #20? Thats revealed to be the Winter Soldier here. 

There are a handful of FlashBacks in issue 25, but theyre all reminder FlashBacks and contain no new information.(like Emma Frost telling Wolverine he has a son, getting Carbonadium bullets from Cyber, dropping the bullets off with Bucky, etc) 

Thats the classic Captain America uniform that Bucky was looking at two issues ago, not the fancy new one hes wearing now as the new Cap. We already know this happens after Cap was killed, but I would also say now that this is before Bucky decides to become the new Captain America. So really, between CA5 25 & 26, sometime during that month. 

As for the Deadpool Flashbacks: 

DEADPOOL/JACK/"WADE WILSON"

C&D 19 (5)-FB 
*W: O 24 (8)-FB
*W: O 24 (11-12)-FB
C&D 19 (11)-FB 


Next issue promises the origin of Daken~!!1!1!`

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 22, 2008 4:37 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Thats the classic Captain America uniform that Bucky was looking at two issues ago, not the fancy new one hes wearing now as the new Cap. We already know this happens after Cap was killed, but I would also say now that this is before Bucky decides to become the new Captain America. So really, between CA5 25 & 26, sometime during that month.
<<<

Double-checking - you're absolutely sure it fits there, and not between CA5 33 & 34? (where Bucky appears in Winter Soldier costuming in YAP 1 [the Patriot issue])

Because you're placing this somewhere in the region of Cable/Deadpool #34-36 by putting it between Cap #25-26. That doesn't feel right at all for DP.

			*	*	*

May 22, 2008 5:25 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
between CA5 33 & 34? (where Bucky appears in Winter Soldier costuming in YAP 1 [the Patriot issue])
<<<

Yeah, that works better. Good catch!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 26, 2008 12:45 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Working this into the calendar, I theorize that Deadpool appears in W:O 20-25 during the gap between C&DP 48 and 49. I have Winter Soldier as the shadowy figure in W:O 20 between CA5 27 and 28 and theorize that it took a while for Wade to catch up to Logan, allowing CA5 28-33 to occur in that period. Then I have W:O 21-25 occurring between CA5 33 and 34. Does this make sense?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

May 26, 2008 12:55 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Sorry, that's my fault for not making it clearer. Back when I analyzed Wolverine: Origins 20 I layed out reasons why this arc should happen after Cable/Deadpool 50... and then forgot to check how that fell in line with Captain America. The biggest placement clues we have are 

After Cable/Deadpool 50, thanks to Deadpool's staus quo. 

and

Before the Winter Soldier becomes the new Captain America, thanks to the Winter Soldier's status quo, but after Captain America is killed. 

Somebody wrote:
>>>
between CA5 33 & 34
<<<

That works for Winter Soldier, how does it line up for Deadpool? If it's after Cable/Deadpool 50, then that's absolutley where we should put it. There's really no placement clues for Wolverine, and I don't think it matters much for him at this point, anyway. The arc does takes place in San Francisco, though, and according to upcoming X-Men solicits, it could mean something for the next arc. But right now, it's fairly freestanding for Wolverine.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 26, 2008 1:48 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

If Deadpool can't appear here between C&DP 48 and 49, then I'll need to move CA5 28 etc. after C&DP 50, which must occur after A4 37. At first glance, that doesn't appear to be a problem. Let me give that a shot. Thanks, Fury.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 41

Subject: the TWELVE 3

May 26, 2008 2:43 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

the Twelve #3
May, 2008 

Appearances: 
Black Widow(Claire Voyant), Blue Blade(Roy Chambers), Captain Wonder(Professor Steve Jordan), Dynamic Man(Curt Cowan), Electro Marvel of the Age!(robot), Fiery Mask(Dr. Jack Castle), Laughing Mask(Dennis Burton), Master Mind Excello(Earl Everett), Mister E.(Victor Jay), Phantom Reporter(Dick Jones), Rockman, the Witness(?), Colonel Dexter, Laura Goldstein, Robert Goldstein, Satan?-BTS, Zombie Master-FB

Synopsis:
pg1-pg6pn1
The Twelve continue to see what they can make of themselves in their new position. Dynamic Man saves a plane, Captain Wonder spends time at his familys grave, and Rockman continues to pound on the floor. The Phantom Reporter strikes up a conversation with the Black Widow as Mister E. Visits his still living relatives. 
Pg6pn2-FB
Vince Jay spends time with his wife and son. It seems that this is Vinces last memory of Robbie, and may be just before he leaves to fight in Europe as Mister E.. 
Pg6pn3-pg7pn3
The visit doesnt go well, and Robert reveals the family changed their name back to Golstein. 
Pg7pn4-pg7pn5-FB
Vince Jay hangs out at the country club, then takes care of some criminals as Mister E.. 
Pg8-pg13pn2
Vince sees his wife and collapses, the home nurse leaves them alone. That night the Phantom Reporters and Black Widows conversation is interrupted when the Daily Bugle offers the Phantom Reporter a job. Meanwhile, the Laughing Mask drinks and chats with the immobile Electro. 
Pg13pn3-pg13pn4-FB
The Laughing Mask attacks some mobsters. 
Pg14pn1-pg14pn2
The Laughing Mask continues his chat with Electro. 
Pg14pn3-pg14pn5-FB
The Laughing Mask kills the mobsters he just attacked. 
Pg15-pg16pn2, pg16pn4
The Laughing Mask walks off. Elsewhere, the Fiery Mask and the Witness hang out in an old police officers tavern and tell their stories to the customers. 
Pg16pn3, pg16pn5-pg18pn3-FB
See below. 
Pg18pn4-pg21pn1
After the Fiery Mask finishes his story, some customers leave, not believing it. A drive by shooting almost happens outside, but the Fiery Mask stops it, proving his story to be real. Meanwhile, Mister E. returns while the Phantom Reporter and Blue Blade chat about celebrities. 
Pg21pn2, pg21pn4-FB
Mister E. leaves his wifes house. 
Pg21pn2, pg21pn4-pg23
Mister E. says that hes decided to stay with the Twelve and not burden his family. Elsewhere, the Black Widow claims the soul of Simon Dexter, at the behest of her master. 

References: 
All in one day, not long after last issue for the current stuff. Full moon over New York. 

Its revealed that Victor Jay had his name legally changed from Victor J. Goldstein, not that his family was happy about it. Both should be listed for him. 

Some placement suggestions: 

BLACK WIDOW/CLAIRE VOYANT 
MARVELS 1 
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
*TWELVE 3

BLUE BLADE/ROY CHAMBERS 
TWELVE 1 (1-21)
TWELVE 2-FB
*TWELVE 3
TWELVE 1 (22)-BTS
TWELVE 2-BTS

CAPTAIN WONDER/PROFESSOR STEVE JORDAN 
[KID KOMICS 1]
[KID KOMICS 2]
TWELVE 2-FB-FB
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
*TWELVE 3

DYNAMIC MAN/CURT COWAN 
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
*TWELVE 3

ELECTRO/PROFESSOR PHILO ZOG 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/5 
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
*TWELVE 3
(Zog is dead and does not make an appearance in this issue, his name is just there as a placeholder until we see what happens with the Electro robot)

LAUGHING MASK/DENNIS BURTON 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 2/6
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 3/3 (as the Purple Mask)
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 4 (as the Purple Mask)
*TWELVE 3 (13:3-13:4)-FB
*TWELVE 3 (14:3-14:5)-FB
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
*TWELVE 3

MASTER MIND EXCELLO/EARL EVERETT 
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
*TWELVE 3

MISTER E./VICTOR J. GOLDSTEIN/VICTOR JAY 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 2/5
*TWELVE 3 (7:4-7:5)-FB
*TWELVE 3 (6:2)-FB
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
*TWELVE 3 (1-9)
*TWELVE 3 (21:2)-FB
*TWELVE 3 (21:4)-FB
*TWELVE 3 (10-23)

PHANTOM REPORTER/DICK JONES 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 3/4
TWELVE 2-FB-FB
TWELVE 1 (1-21)
TWELVE 2-FB 
*TWELVE 3
TWELVE 1 (22)
TWELVE 2

ROCKMAN 
USA COMICS 1/4 
USA COMICS 2/5 
USA COMICS 3/5 
USA COMICS 4/6 
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
*TWELVE 3

WITNESS/ 
TWELVE 1
TWELVE 2-FB
*TWELVE 3

And now, the origin of the Fiery Mask! 

TWELVE 3 (16:3)-FB
Dr. Jack Castle hangs out with some police officers at the local tavern, Flannerys. 
TWELVE 3 (16:5-17:1)-FB
Dr. Castle fights zombies in the streets with the police. 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (1-6:5)
A zombie is killed at the police station, and Dr. Castle is filled in on whats going on. He sets about to investigate it and comes across a house thats using more electricity than it should, so he knocks on the door and is greeted by another zombie. Inside theyre attacked by a giant half mechanical bird, then greeted by a giant scientist.(by giant, I mean 15 feet tall giant)
TWELVE 3 (17:2-17:3)-FB
The giant scientist, now named the Zombie Master, explains to Dr. Castle that hes a fool. Moreover, hell be punished by being turned into a zombie. 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (6:6-7:3)
The scientist attempts to turn Dr. Castle into another zombie, but Castle taunts him. This pisses the giant scientist off, so he turns the machine all the way up. 
TWELVE 3 (17:4-18:2)-FB
The machine begins to overheat. 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (7:4-8)
The machine explodes!. Glowing, Dr. Castle beats up the scientist and blows up the house. 
TWELVE 3 (18:3)-FB
Dr. Castle stands amidst the rubble of the wreckage. 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (9-10)
Dr. Castle flies away. Now that he has powers, he decides to fight crime under the name the Fiery Mask!(because his face glows when hes angry)

The giant scientist has a name now, and he appears in two series, so: 

ZOMBIE MASTER/
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (1-6:5)
TWELVE 3 (17:2-17:3)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (6:6-7:3)
TWELVE 3 (17:4-18:2)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (7:4-10)

FIERY MASK/DR. JACK CASTLE 
*TWELVE 3 (16:3)-FB
*TWELVE 3 (16:5-17:1)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (1-6:5)
*TWELVE 3 (17:2-17:3)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (6:6-7:3)
*TWELVE 3 (17:4-18:2)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (7:4-8)
*TWELVE 3 (18:3)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (9-10) 
[DARING MYSTERY COMICS 5] 
[DARING MYSTERY COMICS 6]
HUMAN TORCH 2/6 
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
*TWELVE 3

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 26, 2008 6:38 pm 
By wolframbane

Good job with breaking up the events of Fiery Mask's origin there Daron!!

As for Mister E's real name, although it has been given as Vince Jay in TWELVE 1, and he was even called Vince by Dynamic Man in TWELVE 2, I believe this was just an error on the writer's behalf. In his first appearance in DARING MYSTERY COMICS 2/5, and well as his appearances in TWELVE 3 and later (even before he meets with his son), he is referred as as Victor Jay.

			*	*	*

May 26, 2008 8:33 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
In his first appearance in DARING MYSTERY COMICS 2/5, and well as his appearances in TWELVE 3 and later (even before he meets with his son), he is referred as as Victor Jay.
<<<

You're right, and I've made the change in my suggestion. Thanks!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 42

Subject: the TWELVE 4

May 26, 2008 9:27 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

the Twelve #4
June, 2008 

Appearances: 
Black Widow(Claire Voyant), Blue Blade(Roy Chambers), Captain Wonder(Professor Steve Jordan), Dynamic Man(Curt Cowan), Electro Marvel of the Age!(robot), Fiery Mask(Dr. Jack Castle), Laughing Mask(Dennis Burton), Master Mind Excello(Earl Everett), Mister E.(Vince Jay), Phantom Reporter(Dick Jones), Rockman, the Witness(?), Colonel Dexter

Synopsis:
pg1-pg3pn2
Master Mind Excello explains to Col. Dexter that his senses are being overloaded by todays noise. He has a bunch of money saved up in his name, and hes bought a place. The Phantom Reporter leaves the conversation and checks on the Black Widow, then runs across two police officers that have arrived. 
pg3pn3-pg4-FB: last night
The Laughing Mask stops a robbery at a liquor store by beating the crap out of the criminals. 
pg5-pg7
Dennis admits that it was him at the liquor store last night, and the officers ask to register his guns. As they walk off, the officers tell the Phantom Reporter about another thing from last night; Simon Dexter was found torn to bits at his place, and they dont have the slightest clue what happened. The officers leave while the Black Widow watches. Downstairs, the Blue Blade has a chat with Rockman. 
pg8-pg11-FB
Rockman is happy in his underground kingdom, with his wife and daughter. But the Evil One keeps attacking and causing problems, so Rockman goes to take care of it. However, this time the Evil One collapses a tunnel and cuts Rockman off from his kingdom... he hasnt seen it or his family since. 
pg12-pg21
Blue Blade offers to make Rockman his showbiz partner, but Rockman says nothing. Later that night, a going away party is held for Master Mind Excello. Dynamic Man hauls in Electro and tries to start a fight, Phantom Reporter tries to pick up Black Widow, and Mister E. And the Witness tell each other that theyre both Jewish. 

References: 
All in one day for the current stuff, day after last issue. 

The Evil One from Rockmans FlashBack isnt named, but its possible that its intended to be the Pixie King from USA COMICS 3/5. Theyre both dressed in Nazi-esque clothing, and last issues Fiery Mask FlashBack utilized the villain from his first appearance. So its possible, but not stated. Ill suggest a placement anyway, and if a future issue contradicts this Ill happily reverse the suggestion. Also, Rockman's wife and daughter aren't named yet, and this is their first appearance. 

Some placement suggestions: 

BLACK WIDOW/CLAIRE VOYANT
MARVELS 1 
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
*TWELVE 4

BLUE BLADE/ROY CHAMBERS 
TWELVE 1 (1-21)
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
*TWELVE 4
TWELVE 1 (22)-BTS
TWELVE 2-BTS

CAPTAIN WONDER/PROFESSOR STEVE JORDAN 
[KID KOMICS 1]
[KID KOMICS 2]
TWELVE 2-FB-FB
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
*TWELVE 4

DYNAMIC MAN/CURT COWAN 
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
*TWELVE 4

ELECTRO/PROFESSOR PHILO ZOG 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/5 
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
*TWELVE 4
(Zog is dead and does not make an appearance in this issue, his name is just there as a placeholder until we see what happens with the Electro robot)

FIERY MASK/DR. JACK CASTLE 
TWELVE 3 (16:3)-FB
TWELVE 3 (16:5-17:1)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (1-6:5)
TWELVE 3 (17:2-17:3)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (6:6-7:3)
TWELVE 3 (17:4-18:2)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (7:4-8)
TWELVE 3 (18:3)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (9-10) 
[DARING MYSTERY COMICS 5] 
[DARING MYSTERY COMICS 6]
HUMAN TORCH 2/6 
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
*TWELVE 4

LAUGHING MASK/DENNIS BURTON 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 2/6
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 3/3 (as the Purple Mask)
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 4 (as the Purple Mask)
TWELVE 3 (13:3-13:4)-FB
TWELVE 3 (14:3-14:5)-FB
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
*TWELVE 4-FB
*TWELVE 4

MASTER MIND EXCELLO/EARL EVERETT 
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
*TWELVE 4

MISTER E./VICTOR J. GOLDSTEIN/VICTOR JAY 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 2/5
TWELVE 3 (7:4-7:5)-FB
TWELVE 3 (6:2)-FB
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3 (1-9)
TWELVE 3 (21:2)-FB
TWELVE 3 (21:4)-FB
TWELVE 3 (10-23)
*TWELVE 4

PHANTOM REPORTER/DICK JONES 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 3/4
TWELVE 2-FB-FB
TWELVE 1 (1-21)
TWELVE 2-FB 
TWELVE 3
*TWELVE 4
TWELVE 1 (22)
TWELVE 2

ROCKMAN 
USA COMICS 1/4 
USA COMICS 2/5 
USA COMICS 3/5 
USA COMICS 4/6 
*TWELVE 4-FB
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
*TWELVE 4

WITNESS/ 
TWELVE 1
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
*TWELVE 4

PIXIE KING
USA COMICS 3/5
TWELVE 4-FB

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 43

Subject: Daring Mystery Comics #6

May 26, 2008 10:28 pm 
By wolframbane

DARING MYSTERY COMICS #6
September 1940
"Introducing Marvel Boy" (10 pages)

Characters: 
Marvel Boy I (Martin Simon "Marty" Burns; not to be confused with Marvel Boy II (Martin Oksner Burns) from USA COMICS 7/3)
Hercules, Son of Power (not to be confused with the Olympian demigod Hercules (Heracles) from JIM@ 1)
Jupiter (not to be confused with Jupiter (Zeus) from VENUS 5 and JIM@ 1)
Mars (not to be confused with Mars (also known as Ares) from HUMAN TORCH 5A and T 129)
Andrew and Barbara Burns (Martin Burns' parents)
"a harmless but helpful shadow"
Adolf Hitler (in 1926)
Friedrich Broen, Gustav Shultz, Frank Stohl (German spies)

Synopsis: 
Centuries ago, the hero Hercules, Son of Power, promises on his deathbed to return when the country of America needs him the most, despite the secrets of reincarnation becoming lost for thousands of years following the fall of the Egyptian culture. After his soul ascends to dwell within a castle in the mystic realm of Valhalla, Hercules watches as the American nation gradually develops, but becomes concerned in 1926 when he observes the fascist leader Adolf Hitler rise to power in Germany and the Valhalla warlord Mars becoming active once again. After petitioning Jupiter, the ruler of Valhalla, to allow him to return to the mortal realm to oppose the approaching darkness, the soul of Hercules is reincarnated on Earth, entering the body of the newborn child Martin Burns. Due to the presence to the dormant spirit of Hercules within his body, the young Martin displays uncanny strength during his childhood. During a violent storm on the evening of his fourteenth birthday, an unidentified man delivers a package to the Burns home, and Martin is awakened by "a harmless but helpful shadow" inside his room, who reveals to Martin the bond he shares with Hercules and his destiny to battle the forces threatening mankind. Martin dons a costume from the package and becomes the superhuman Marvel Boy, and under the direction of the mysterious shadow, he soon confronts a truckload of Nazi operatives dispatched to infiltrate America, who have been delivered by a German submarine to an obscure inland cove on the Hudson River. After defeating the operatives, one of whom is accidentally gunned down by his own men, he leaves them tied up on the steps of FBI headquarters. Marvel Boy then uses a document in their possession to locate their headquarters, where he subdues operative leaders Broen, Shultz and Stohl. After forcing Shultz to contact the submarine, directing it to a naval shipyard where it is impounded and its crew arrested, Marvel Boy subsequently returns home.

Chronology: 
Mid 1940; Martin Burns was born "in mid-1926" (OHOTMU6 4).

Comments:
Marvel Boy's real name is given as Martin Burns in this story; his middle name of Simon, confirmed in OHOTMU6 4 and probably derived from scripter Joe Simon, distinguished him from the Marvel Boy (Martin Oksner Burns) of USA COMICS 7/3.

The realm of Valhalla should not be confused with the Asgardian realm of the same name. Also the gods Hercules, Jupiter and Mars should not be confused with the Olympian gods Heracles, Zeus and Ares.

Marvel Boy 'may' be in the new Avengers/Invaders series, given the promotional art.

Placement suggestions:

MARVEL BOY/MARTIN SIMON "MARTY" BURNS
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 6

HITLER, ADOLF
SJNS
DRSTR2 51-FB
DARING MYSTERY 6
INV 36-FB
...

			*	*	*

May 27, 2008 11:49 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
Hercules, Son of Power (not to be confused with the Olympian demigod Hercules (Heracles) from JIM@ 1)
Jupiter (not to be confused with Jupiter (Zeus) from VENUS 5 and JIM@ 1)
Mars (not to be confused with Mars (also known as Ares) from HUMAN TORCH 5A and T 129)
<<<

How should these guys be listed? For example, the Hercules we know is currently listed as: 

HERCULES [GREEK GOD]

I dunno, maybe: 

HERCULES, SON OF POWER
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 6

Any ideas? 

Also, I would say: 

HITLER, ADOLF
SJNS
DRSTR2 51-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 6
INV 36-FB
...

If only to match with what Marvel Boy already has... 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

May 28, 2008 12:36 pm 
By wolframbane

Col_Fury wrote:
How should these guys be listed? For example, the Hercules we know is currently listed as: 

HERCULES [GREEK GOD]

I dunno, maybe: 

HERCULES, SON OF POWER
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 6

Any ideas? 

To confuse matters even more, there are numerous being known as Hercules. They include:
Hercules (David) from MYSTIC COMICS 3/2
Hercules (Son of Power) from DARING MYSTERY COMICS 6
Hercules from USA COMICS 7/3
Hercules (Heracles) from JIM@ 1
Hercules (Forgotten One) from T 291
Hercules (doppelganger) from IW 1
Hercules from CW 6
H'Ercule from GAM3 25

			*	*	*

Thread 44

Subject: RED RAVEN COMICS #1/7 (Eternal Brain)

May 29, 2008 1:59 am 
By wolframbane

RED RAVEN COMICS #1/7
August 1940
No title given (8 pages)

Characters: Eternal Brain (Professor William Carmody), Mary Carmody, Jim Fitzpatrick
Villains: Ulan Bator, Peg-Leg Martin

Synopsis: 
William Carmody, a scientist building upon the decades old secret work of aviator Charles Lindbergh, develops the means to keep organic brains alive after physical death. Having preserved the brain of a living dog for five years, Carmody and his assistant Jim Fitzpatrick prepare to adapt the technology to human needs. Forming a worldwide criminal network, Ulan Bator, the self-styled "Emperor of Mongolia," becomes obsessed with Carmody's daughter Mary, and has his gangster associate Peg-Leg Martin abduct her, shooting Carmody in the process. The dying professor instructs Fitzpatrick to transplant his brain to a life support system, and he becomes the Eternal Brain, developing numerous mental powers and communicating through a "telepathy receptor." Carmody accompanies Fitzpatrick on their rocketship to Bator's citadel in Chinese Turkistan and they successfully rescue Mary. After Carmody telepathically causes their criminal forces to revolt, Bator and Martin are forced to destroy their followers and flee in their own vessel, but are subsequently pursued and shot down by Carmody and Fitzpatrick.

Comments:
Although published in 1940, this story occurs in the far flung future year of 1980.

Eternal Brain, Mary Carmody and Jim Fitzpatrick later appear in Marvel: The Lost Generation.

The MCP mistakenly lists the Eternal Brain's first appearance as RED RAVEN 9, it was actually issue #1/7. There was no issue #9, the series became Human Torch Comics with issue #2.

RED RAVEN COMICS 1/7 is partially retold in M/:LG 9 (3:3-5)-FB.

The Eternal Brain summoned by the Destiny Force in AVF 11-12 is presumably from an alternate Earth (OHOTMU5 4).

Ulan Bator (or Ulaanbaatar) is also the name of the capital of Mongolia.

Placement suggestions:

CARMODY, MARY
{RED RAVEN COMICS 1/7} ~ M/:LG 9 (3:3-5)-FB
M/:LG 9

ETERNAL BRAIN/PROFESSOR WILLIAM CARMODY
{RED RAVEN COMICS 1/7} ~ M/:LG 9 (3:3-5)-FB
M/:LG 9
M/:LG 10
M/:LG 11
{M/:LG 12}

FITZPATRICK, JIM
{RED RAVEN COMICS 1/7} ~ M/:LG 9 (3:3-5)-FB
M/:LG 9

			*	*	*

Thread 45

Subject: USA COMICS #7/3 (Marvel Boy)

May 29, 2008 2:31 am 
By wolframbane

USA COMICS #7/3
March 1943
No title given (7 pages)

Characters: 
Marvel Boy II (Martin Oksner Burns; not to be confused with Marvel Boy I (Martin Simon Burns) from DARING MYSTERY COMICS 6)
Hercules (appears as both a mummified body and a spirit; not to be confused with the Olympian demigod Hercules (Heracles) from JIM@ 1)
Goderich Von Blubber and two Nazi operatives
Miss Prim (a teacher)

Synopsis: 
During a field trip where teacher Miss Prim takes her class to a museum displaying ancient Egyptian artifacts, a student accidentally knocks over the sarcophagus containing the mummy of Hercules, who was according to legend a powerful champion of right. As the sarcophagus falls, a glass vial containing an extract of Hercules' blood shatters and cuts student Martin Burns, causing the blood of the ancient hero and the young man to mix. As a doctor is examining Martin, Miss Prim notices that his wounds have apparently already healed, and he seemingly manifests superhuman strength while opening a revolving door. Later that evening, Martin is approached at his home by a mysterious shadow that he realizes is the actual Hercules, who identifies Martin as his fated successor in the twentieth century. The soul of Hercules bequeaths to Martin his former costume which also grants the youth superhuman speed, intelligence and the power of flight, and he is given the name of Marvel Boy. Venturing forth, Marvel Boy rescues a trapped subway signalman from a burning building, the fire having been set by Nazi operatives after torturing the man to obtain information to take control of the subway system. Arriving at the main signal station of the subway, where operative Goderich Von Blubber and his men have set the signal controls to cause all the trains to crash during morning rush hour, Marvel Boy manages to subdue the saboteurs and bring the trains to a halt. Von Blubber and his men are apprehended and Martin Burns arrives in class the following morning, where he apologizes to Miss Prim for his lateness.

Chronology:
"Late 1942" (OHOTMU6 4).

Comments: 
Marvel Boy's real name is given as Martin Burns in this story; his middle name of Oksner, confirmed in OHOTMU6 4 and probably derived from scripter Bob Oksner, distinguishes him from the Marvel Boy (Martin Simon Burns) of DARING MYSTERY COMICS 6. 

Hercules may or may not be the same Hercules the empowered Marvel Boy I in DARING MYSTERY COMICS 6.

Marvel Boy II 'may' be in the new Avengers/Invaders series, given the promotional art.

Placement Suggestions:

MARVEL BOY II/MARTIN OKSNER BURNS
USA COMICS 7/3

			*	*	*

Thread 46

Subject: MYSTIC COMICS Vol. 1 #3-4 (Hercules)

May 29, 2008 3:00 am 
By wolframbane

MYSTIC COMICS Vol. 1 #3/2
June 1940
"The Origin of Hercules" (7 pages)

Characters: 
Hercules (David, first name unrevealed; not to be confused with Olympian demigod Hercules)
Dr. David (Hercules' father; dies)
Bobbie Drew (reporter for the Daily Globe)
Two circus owners

Synopsis: 
Dr. David, an idealistic master of science, departs from civilization to raise his infant son to become a perfect physical and mental specimen on the secluded Snow Island in the arctic. Due to the harsh climate and physical labor, the highly intelligent child develops both incredible strength and a height of ten feet. The doctor eventually dies, and after twenty years on the island, the young man encounters two men who are investigating rumors of a "wild giant" on the island. Deciding to abduct him to become an attraction for their circus, the men subdue the giant using gas bombs and return to America with him, placing him in their freak show under the name of "Hercules." The naive rather complacent Hercules is later interviewed by Bobbie Drew of the newspaper Daily Globe, when a wild bull escapes from the menagerie and charges at the reporter. After Hercules rescues her by breaking the bull's neck, Bobbie suggests that he leave the circus and pursue something more than being a circus freak. The circus owners attempt to prevent his departure at gunpoint, but Hercules swiftly disarms them and leaves with Bobbie. A nearby dam suddenly breaks, threatening to kill hundreds within the valley, but Hercules manages to rapidly construct a makeshift dam using logs and large stones, which is reinforced with the arrival of emergency crews. After Bobbie informs him of crime in town, Hercules decides to oppose the criminal element.

Comments: 
Bobbie Drew works for the newspaper Daily Globe, which is still operating in the modern age (FF 2) under editor Barney Bushkin (ASM 27).

MYSTIC COMICS Vol. 1 #4/2
August 1940
"Earthquake" (7 pages)

Characters: Hercules
Lemo (a mad scientist; dies)

Synopsis: 
Residing at the circus, Hercules encounters the mad scientist Lemo, who has constructed powerful electrical weaponry and a "mechanical monster," an underground tank capable of causing powerful earthquakes. After the scientist abducts Hercules and attempts to perform surgery upon his brain to transform the gigantic man into his slave, Hercules opposes his scheme and battles Lemo, who is slain when the hero destroys both his tank and his estate.

Placement suggestions:

HERCULES/DAVID
MYSTIC COMICS 3/2
MYSTIC COMICS 4/2
