	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Astonishing #13-24 and Messiah Complex [potential spoilerz]
2. Spectacular Spider-Man UK Magazine
3. Heavy (The Order #9)
4. Makkari appearance
5. Marvel Comics Presents questions
6. Molten Man BTS error
7. Power Man audit
8. Iron Man - Beth Cabe query
9. So...how much time between OMD/BND?!?
10. S-M 50
11. ASM 387
12. M/SHSW 7 in Venom chronology?
13. Hulk/Thor battles, death of Dai Thomas' spouse
14. Correction for "Blackbyrd"
15. Rupert Dockery additions
16. Dr Strange Chronology question?
17. Fantastic Four #557
18. X-Factor #32 [SPOILERS]
19. New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?
20. Ship/Professor/Prosh, Uni-Power

	Issue Analysis Forum
21. the TWELVE 5
22. Spider-Man/Dr. Octopus: Negative Exposure 1-5
23. Marvel: The Lost Generation #12-1
24. Amazing Spider-Man Annual 28
25. Wolverine: Dangerous Games 1
26. Punisher: Little Black Book 1
27. Spider-Man Family v2 #9
28. Hulk: Raging Thunder #1
29. Earth X 0-4




Thread 1

Subject: Astonishing #13-24 and Messiah Complex [potential spoilerz]

Feb 03, 2008 1:03 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Apologies if this has already been covered elsewhere, but I was thinking last night about where to place Astonishing v3 #13-24...

Marvel has stated several times that that whole arc occurs "now" -- that it can't occur any earlier than the publication date of the final issue, and we'll all understand why once we read it. Combine that with the in-story and promotional statements that not every character comes back from the X-Men's trip to space, and we can infer that the character that isn't returning is currently appearing in other books. Therefore, the arc can't be placed before those books.

However, these statements were all released before "Messiah Complex". At this point, with the mansion destroyed and the X-Men disbanded, it looks very unlikely indeed that Astonishing #13-24 can occur afterwards.

So -- working on the assumption that #13-24 occur prior to Messiah Complex, and that one character doesn't return -- which characters from that arc did NOT appear in Messiah Complex?

The answers are Kitty Pryde and Lockheed.

Kitty last appeared in X-Men #204 and New X-Men #43 -- and Messiah Complex started up in X-Men #205 and New X-Men #44. So, assuming that Kitty doesn't return from the Astonishing arc, forcing us to place this story between those issues -- can it be done?

Well, there's a fine break point between NXM #43-44, but we'll have to crowbar a gap into X-Men #204. As it reads, the X-Men (plus Kitty) go from debating the fallout of X-Men #200-203, immediately to a scene in the sickbay where Blindfold and the equipment react to the birth of the new mutant baby.

Blindfold's been in the sickbay since X-Men #202 -- and yet she appears up and around in Astonishing #13-18. So if we're to place Astonishing between pages of X-Men #204, we'll have to assume that she got better, then relapsed or was injured again in an unrelated incident. This, to me, is not a difficult assumption -- after all, she's just lying there on the cot in sickbay in the closing pages of #204 -- she's not hooked up to any medical equipment. Maybe she came in with Iceman to visit Cannonball, and just wanted to lie down for a minute.

So, with a little effort, a gap can be made between pp.18-19 of X-Men #204.

Now, that almost works. However, Astonishing #13 presents some problems. A lot of references are dropped that Astonishing #12 was very recent (it's the New X-Men's "first time" back in the Danger Room since #12, for example). Rockslide is shown in his original human-shaped rock-form (not the current "chunks of rubble" look he's been sporting for some time). Anole is shown with two human arms. And Maria Hill is the Director of SHIELD.

Ugh. To use the X-Men book as a yardstick, the Danger storyline from Aston #7-12 was first referenced in X-Men #171. And here we are trying to place #13-24 between pages of X-Men #204. THIRTY-FOUR issues of X-Men have passed, while only twelve of Astonishing have come out. Yikes.

I suggest we find a gap in Astonishing #13 -- lop the issue in half, and toss the half with all those dated references WAY back in the past. Wolvie makes a reference to "a lotta students gone", so we can probably place this just post-Decimation. And the rest of #13, plus all of #14-24, can be placed between those pages of X-Men #204.

I see a likely spot on p.17 of Aston #13, between panels 1-2. That's the end of the Maria Hill scene, and the beginning of the "Kitty sleeps with Colossus" sene (thanks for that image, Joss) that leads right into the bulk of #13-24.

The only problem I see with dividing the issue up this way is that Anole and Pixie are seen a few times after that point, each in their old looks (i.e. Pixie with the pink hair and face makeup, Anole with two human arms). But these are one-panel glimpses, and can be written off as art errors.

So, what does everyone think?

A quick breakdown of my suggestions:

Astonishing #7-12
X-Men #171-176 - Aston #12 referenced
House of M: the Day After - Decimation
X-Men #177-179 - immediate fallout from Decimation
Astonishing #13 p.1 to p.17 panel 1 - Decimation referenced, students in old looks, Maria Hill in charge of SHIELD
X-Men #180-203 - many changes, including new looks for students, Tony Stark taking over SHIELD
X-Men #204 pp.1-18 - Blindfold in sickbay, Kitty still around
Astonishing #13 p.17 panel 2-end
Astonishing #14-24 - Blindfold recovered, some students seen in old looks in brief one-panel art errors, mansion still standing
Giant-Size Astonishing #1 - Kitty doesn't return?
X-Men #204 pp.19-end - Blindfold back in sickbay or visiting, no sign of Kitty, mutant baby born
Messiah Complex - mansion destroyed, no sign of Kitty


Thoughts?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Feb 03, 2008 1:18 pm 
By jephyork
Director

By the way, hopefully this placement will also solve a little bugaboo of mine: was Cassandra Nova really Ernst, or not?

Short version: Cassandra Nova was tricked into entering the malleable body of the Shi'Ar Superguardian named Stuff. Stuff was "programmed to learn", and the notion seemed to be that Cassandra was to be re-educated.

Shortly thereafter, a student named Ernst started appearing on-campus, looking like a cross between a little girl and a wrinkly old lady. No real backstory was ever given to Ernst, except that she was friends with Martha Johanssen (the floating brain-in-a-jar) -- until the very end of Morrison's run, when, in the far future, a reformed and benevolent Cassandra Nova tells Martha "of course you can still call me Ernst".

The implication seems to be that Stuff's malleable body was transformed into childlike form, and Cassandra was indeed re-educated, literally, as one of Xavier's students.

However, Astonishing #13-18 revealed that Stuff was still in alien-blob form, being kept in a tightly-secured box in the basement, and as Cassandra was being tricked into entering it, she had given Emma a post-hypnotic suggestion to free her. It also states that Prof. X designed the box.

We could, potentially, assume that both stories are still true -- that the "Ernst" experiment failed, Stuff reverted, and Prof. X locked it in a box. But Ernst was last seen in New X-Men #20-23, while Prof. X was away -- so we'd have to place this arc of Astonishing after his return, in Deadly Genesis #6, to make both stories work.

My suggested very late placing of Astonishing #13-24 allows both Cassandra stories to still be true. 

Phew!

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Feb 03, 2008 3:35 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph wrote:
>>>
Kitty last appeared in X-Men #204 and New X-Men #43 -- and Messiah Complex started up in X-Men #205 and New X-Men #44. So, assuming that Kitty doesn't return from the Astonishing arc, forcing us to place this story between those issues -- can it be done?
<<<

This will be a little challenge, but probably no more so than the bazillion other gaps we've had to wedge into seemingly continuous storylines.  

NX 43 leads right into Messiah Complex, so the gap for the run of Astonishing issues you want to accommodate may need to be in NX 43, right before Predator X detects the birth of the mutant baby. Let's keep this in mind but wait for the Astonishing storyline to play itself out.

BTW, I can't help but note that I can't remember a time I've cared about a storyline any less than the current arc in Astonishing*. It's taken so long to get these issues out, and the story itself is dragging at a snail's pace even without the delays. I discovered I really don't care a wit about Breakworld, SWORD, or the whole Colossus prophecy thing. The welcome definitely is worn out for me. Yawn.

*Okay...Onslaught Reborn. Frankly, I had forgotten completely about this useless story long before the last issue came out.

Alright, griping over.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

May 01, 2008 11:49 am 
By jephyork
Director

Gragh. Just saw some preview pages for Giant-Size Astonishing X-Men #1, and Cannonball shows up.

The other X-books have been pretty conclusive that this entire ASTONX arc, #13-24 and GS #1, will need to go after the last appearance of Shadowcat. However, Cannonball's in a freaking *coma* during the slot we were looking at previously ... between the last few pages of X-Men #204.

Mrrf. Thoughts? I'm thinking of reclassifying the power surge on the last page of #204 (just after Cannonball wakes up) as something *other* than the birth of the mutant baby, which would allow us to place all of X #204 before the Astonishing arc. That would also solve the similar problem of Blindfold being in the infirmary...

Hmm.

Bah. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

May 01, 2008 11:55 am 
By Somebody
Director

Cannonballs relapsed.

Seriously, there's no way around this. Sam's still in the infirmary *during* MCX (Someone - Beast IIRC - gets angry that he's on his feet while the Sentinels are hitting the Mansion), and doesn't get out until after the Sentinels are done. It's irreconcilable within sane parameters.

			*	*	*

May 01, 2008 9:34 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph wrote:
>>>
and Cannonball shows up.
<<<

Skrull. Paul B.

			*	*	*

May 01, 2008 10:15 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Like I said, irreconcilable within sane parameters 

[Seriously, you KNOW that wouldn't help, since it would just be the skrull laid up for too long, rather than the real Cannonballs ]

			*	*	*

May 01, 2008 11:53 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
Seriously, there's no way around this.
<<<

There's always a way. 


>>>
Sam's still in the infirmary *during* MCX (Someone - Beast IIRC - gets angry that he's on his feet while the Sentinels are hitting the Mansion)
<<<

I just checked that scene, and there's some wiggle room. Sam's not shown lying in a biobed, and nobody directly references *why* he's in the medlab. We see him on his feet and not acting injured at all, helping out Prof. X. The Beast says "you shouldn't be moving around", but that's it.

I still say, reclassifying the power surge at the end of X-Men #204 as "something else" and putting this ASTONX arc between X-men #204 and Messiah Complex is the way to go.

I *don't* feel okay pretending that Sam gets better, off-panel, halfway through X-Men #204, then the ASTONX arc occurs, then Sam relapses to the point of coma in the end pages of X-Men #204. (Not to mention, Blindfold apparently relapses as well.)

But I do feel okay pretending that the power surge is something else, then assuming that after Giant-Size Astonishing, Sam relapses to the point where he shouldn't be on his feet prior to Messiah Complex. (Alternate assumption: he gets injured in GS Aston, and *that's* why he's in the medlab.)

So yes, we'll definitely have to do some handwaves here and ignore some implied references. But it's not as irreconcilable as all that...

There's always a way. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

May 31, 2008 8:05 am 
By Somebody
Director

Okay, in addition to all the above crap (and, with Storm in her Larroca costume, it certainly looks like its meant to be in X204 to me), we get an addition to the NA@ 2 steaming pile, thanks to red/blue Spider-Man appearing in the same story as Dr Strange (who, thanks to Colossus, must appear here before Last Defenders #3, where he has no spellcasting capability).

			*	*	*

May 31, 2008 12:20 pm 
By morwen

And, isn't that Havok I spy on page 21, dumbfounded with the rest of the heroes?

			*	*	*

May 31, 2008 12:51 pm 
By Somebody
Director

No, that's Angel.

			*	*	*

Jun 01, 2008 12:16 am 
By TheDeuce

gaaaaaah! want...to...help....figure....this...out. 

			*	*	*

Jun 01, 2008 1:07 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
(Alternate assumption: he gets injured in GS Aston, and *that's* why he's in the medlab.)
<<<

Spider-Man beats Cannonballs into a coma BTS before he moves on to beating the tar out of Dr. Strange. Problem solved!   


Somebody wrote:
>>>
we get an addition to the NA@ 2 steaming pile, thanks to red/blue Spider-Man appearing in the same story as Dr Strange (who, thanks to Colossus, must appear here before Last Defenders #3, where he has no spellcasting capability).
<<<

According to Tom Brevoort, Dr. Strange will play a SMALL role in Secret Invasion. Whatever the plans for him are, I think it may just end up involving him being not very powerful. He's had, what, four or five appearances since he's declared seclusion? Maybe the reason he's not getting better is because he's not STAYING in seclusion...

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 2

Subject: Spectacular Spider-Man UK Magazine

May 30, 2008 10:23 pm 
By newtron

Hi,

Does anybody have an opinion as to whether or not the new stories in this mag are canon? Spider-Fan (http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/title/s ... ar_uk.html) mentions that this "is a generic cartoon version, essentially based on the popular 90's TV cartoon", but I'm a bit skeptical about that. It's still on-going years after the show ended, and cartoony art doesn't necessarily mean the comic is based on that or any other show.

In the most recent review for this title, Spider-Fan also says (http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/reviews/spiderman_spectacular_uk/155.html):
>>>
Originally those new stories were one-off tales set in a "Generic Spider-Man" continuity which had much in common with the Spider-Man of the 1990's Cartoon series. More recently they attempted to construct their own "Ultimate Spider-Man-esque" version of young Peter Parker, though recent issues seem to have drifted back to the generic cartoon continuity.
<<<

I'm curious if there's any good reason these can't be considered canon. I haven't read this myself, but I may try to track some issues down.

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

May 31, 2008 12:29 pm 
By cweed4

Considering this series began as a reprint title for stories that were based on a cartoon show I think its safe to assume its a separate universe. I have also never read them but I would be shocked if they weren't loaded w/ continuity discrepancies from the MU. (eg. The description for series 1, episode 7 seems to suggest a completely different venom origin.) The easiest thing to do might be renting/buying a copy of the animated shows they were derived from and see how many differences they have.

			*	*	*

May 31, 2008 12:55 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Oh, it's a mix of stuff. I think they reprinted Marvel-Team Up v2 at one point.

			*	*	*

May 31, 2008 3:34 pm 
By Enda80

http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibliography-AZ7

http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibliography-AZ7#Merlyn

Check the entry for the Captain Britain Corps in Alternate Earths Handbook or the Fury or Merlyn's entry in the recent A-Z series. I think they referenced this magazine as publishing alternate Earth stories.

			*	*	*

May 31, 2008 3:58 pm 
By newtron

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibliography-AZ7

http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibliography-AZ7#Merlyn

Check the entry for the Captain Britain Corps in Alternate Earths Handbook or the Fury or Merlyn's entry in the recent A-Z series. I think they referenced this magazine as publishing alternate Earth stories.
<<<

I don't see anything about this magazine under Merlyn or Fury at that link. I also don't have the Alternate Earths Handbook to check - could you type out the relevant passages?


cweed4 wrote:
>>>
Considering this series began as a reprint title for stories that were based on a cartoon show I think its safe to assume its a separate universe. I have also never read them but I would be shocked if they weren't loaded w/ continuity discrepancies from the MU. (eg. The description for series 1, episode 7 seems to suggest a completely different venom origin.) The easiest thing to do might be renting/buying a copy of the animated shows they were derived from and see how many differences they have.
<<<

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Oh, it's a mix of stuff. I think they reprinted Marvel-Team Up v2 at one point.
<<<

Exactly. It did start out reprinting stuff based on the show, but it also reprinted a bunch of canon stuff. E.g. (according to Spider-Fan) #22 reprinted UTSM@ 1996 and #30-34 reprinted Amazing and Sensational stories. Because it's such a mix I think it may have to be treated kind of like Spider-Man Family, in that it might have to be considered on a story-by-story / issue-by-issue basis. At the very least I think it deserves a look.

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Jun 01, 2008 5:29 am 
loki

I wrote the entries in question. Spectacular Spider-Man tells stories from an alternate reality. It can't fit with Earth-616, but the story where Merlyn turns up references Earth-616. Plus Merlyn is Merlyn (and Merlin) across the multiverse - barring imposters, any appearance by him is the same character, no matter what reality you are in. Hence the story gets mentioned in his Handbook entry and in the Fury's.

			*	*	*

Jun 01, 2008 8:33 am 
By newtron

ah, thanks for clearing this up!the spider-man project: 

http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Thread 3

Subject: Heavy (The Order #9)

May 30, 2008 7:35 pm 
By Mikhail

Although they didn't come right out and say it, my understanding is that Heavy was present at the fateful attack where Tony Stark was bombed with shrapnel and taken captive by the enemy, thus leading to the origin of Iron Man. This means that Dennis Murray should technically be listed as present, or at least BTS, to the origin of Iron Man. The problem is...which origin?

The scene of the jeep exploding seen in Order #9 is not what happened in ToS #39. Shellhead's origin has been updated several times, of course, to avoid Vietnam references. I can think of Iron Man #268 and the current Iron Man: Director of SHIELD #5 just off the top of my head. My question is, does "Heavy's origin" jive with any of the Iron Man origin retellings? Should Heavy just get a "ToS 39 - BTS" listing for simplicity's sake?

			*	*	*

Jun 01, 2008 4:05 pm 
By michaelyuri

I don't think this is enough to qualify for a behind-the-scenes listing. Directors, please correct me if I'm mistaken, but as I understand it, a BTS entry is only given when the character actually has some significant impact on the events shown on panel. So, for example, if it was revealed that Dennis Murphy was directly responsible for certain events shown on panel during the Iron Man origin, then he would get a BTS listing, but just being present but not shown on panel isn't enough.

This brings up another question I've been wondering about, though. How exactly is the "OP" code intended to be used? The Key describes it as "Off-Panel: standing off-panel OR the bts character is literally controlling another, as in Karma or Puppet Master." The second part of that definition (mind-control, etc.) is self-explanatory, but what are the criteria for a "standing off-panel" listing?-Mike

			*	*	*

Jun 01, 2008 5:53 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

michaelyuri wrote:
>>>
I don't think this is enough to qualify for a behind-the-scenes listing. Directors, please correct me if I'm mistaken, but as I understand it, a BTS entry is only given when the character actually has some significant impact on the events shown on panel. So, for example, if it was revealed that Dennis Murphy was directly responsible for certain events shown on panel during the Iron Man origin, then he would get a BTS listing, but just being present but not shown on panel isn't enough.
<<<

Right. In this case, Murphy would only get ORDER 9-FB in his listing, but no TOSs. Now how ORDER 9-FB fits into Tony Stark's chronology...


michaelyuri wrote:
>>>
This brings up another question I've been wondering about, though. How exactly is the "OP" code intended to be used? The Key describes it as "Off-Panel: standing off-panel OR the bts character is literally controlling another, as in Karma or Puppet Master." The second part of that definition (mind-control, etc.) is self-explanatory, but what are the criteria for a "standing off-panel" listing?
<<<

Let's say in X-Men #1234 Colossus and Professor X are chatting in the bathroom, but it's revealed through dialogue or something that Cyclops is in the next stall over. We don't see Cyclops for the rest of the issue, his only appearance is hidden by the bathroom stall door. He's there, but we don't see him, he's just off-panel. 

Or, let's say that Amazing Spider-Man #987 & Hulk #1278 cross over. Mary Jane is present in ASM & Betty is present in HULK, but not vice-versa. The two issues show parts of the same conversation, so Mary Jane would get an OP for HULK and Betty would get an OP for ASM, because they're both there but just off-panel.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 4

Subject: Makkari appearance

In the OHOTMU: Golden Age (Hurricane), it states the Makkari (as Major Mercury) was present during the First Line's battle against the Skrull invasion and survived the encounter in Marvel: The Lost Generation #12. He did not make an actual appearance in the issue (although one of the many unnamed background characters was depicted as a speedster), although he would now be considered behind the scenes. 

For placement, I suggest:

MAKKARI/MIKE KHARY/"INVISIBLE MAN"/"ADAM CLAYTON"/"JAKE CURTISS"/"MICHAEL CURRY"/"MAJOR MERCURY"/HURRICANE [ETERNAL]
ST 67
M/U 4
M/U 5
M/U 6
M/U 7
M/:LG 2
M/:LG 5
*M/:LG 12-BTS
E 5
...

			*	*	*

Thread 5

Subject: Marvel Comics Presents questions

Jun 02, 2008 7:06 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Does anyone know:

1) When the current Machine Man story in M/CP2 is supposed to occur?

2) In what universe the Hulk story in M/CP2 9 supposed to occur?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Subject: Molten Man BTS error

Jun 03, 2008 11:11 am 
By newtron

Molten Man's entry for ASM 171 should not be BTS. He is not identified in the issue, but he is visible in three panels.

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Subject: Power Man audit

Jun 03, 2008 9:24 pm 
By Arthur
Director

Power Man audit (Luke Cage, Hero for Hire 1-16, Power Man 17-49, Power Man and Iron Fist 50-125, Power Man Annual 1)

* adjustment required
** new entries

ANGAR THE SCREAMER/DAVID ANGAR 
DD 107
**PM&IF 70 (9:2)-FB-BTS Angar attacks Lee and Colleen Wing
M/PRM 25

*AUGUST PERSONAGE IN JADE/YU-TI
YU-TI is a title as is AUGUST PERSONAGE IN JADE. The first entry in the current listing belongs to the elder YU-TI, Tu-an and the remainder belongs to his son Nu-an.

*AUGUST PERSONAGE IN JADE /YU-TI/TU-AN
M/PRM 22-FB
**PM&IF 75 (9:1-10:1)-FB saved by Wendell Rand
**PM&IF 75 (10:4)-FB adopts Wendell
**M/TU 64 (6:1-7:5)-FB presides over Test of Combat

*AUGUST PERSONAGE IN JADE II/ YU-TI II/NU-AN
**PM&IF 75 (9:1-10:1)-FB saved by Wendell Rand
**PM&IF 75 (10:3-10:6)-FB watches as Wendell is adopted and married
**M/TU 64 (6:1-7:5)-FB present at Wendells Test of Combat
**PM&IF 75 (11:2-11:6)-FB watches Wendell depart
M/PRM 16-FB
M/PRM 18-FB
DHKF 21-FB
**PM&IF 75 (16:4)-FB sentencing Conal and Miranda to oblivion
M/PRM 16-FB
. . .
M/TU 64
*PM&IF 74 To be Deleted; Yu-Ti is not in this issue.
PM&IF 75

*BERNSTEIN, EMMA WEBSTER should be BURSTEIN, EMMA WEBSTER

BIG BEN/BEN DONOVAN 
**PM 42 (4:7)-FB-BTS hired the assassin to shoot Lonny Carver (revealed: PM&IF 62 (13:6))
**PM&IF 61(16:3)-FB-BTS hired the assassin that shot Lonny Carver (revealed: PM&IF 62 (13:6))
LCHFH 14
** LCHFH 15-BTS (on other end of phone (10:3))
*LCHFH 16 (1-18:6)
**PM&IF 61 (6:5)-FB defending Claire Temple
*LCHFH 16 (19:119:5)
**PM&IF 51-BTS questioned for leads by Power Man (11:3)
PM&IF 61
**PM 39
**PM 40

BLACK GOLIATH/DR. WILLIAM "BILL" BARRETT FOSTER
M/FEA 9
**PM 24 (9:2-9:4)-FB Bill gains growth and is trapped at 15 height.
PM 24

BLACK KNIGHT V/DANE WHITMAN
H2 323
*PM&IF 125 should read PM&IF 125 (3:1-36:7)-FB. Pg 3:136:7 take place prior to pg 1.
A 270

**BRILLALAE
The flashbacks in this next entry (Brillalae) may be re-tells of stuff in DHKF; I do not have the DHKF books to determine if the content is new or not. Brillalae does not currently have a listing in the MCP
**PM&IF 81 (3:1)-FB Bumps into Abe Brown at airport before plane crash
**PM&IF 82 (14:5/1)-FB tends Abes injuries after crash
**PM&IF 82

BROWN, ABE
As noted just above I do not have the DHKF issues to determine retell vs original material.

Scenes in question:
>>>
PM&IF 81 (3:1)-FB Abe is bumped by Brillalae at airport before boarding plane that crashes
PM&IF 81 (3:2-3:3)-FB on plane during hijacking; black out from the crash
PM&IF 82 (14:5/1)-FB lying in bed tended to by Brillalae after crash
PM&IF 82 (14:5/2)-FB riding at head of revolutionary forces as Black Tiger
<<<

DHKF 32/2
**PM&IF 82 (14:5/3)-FB shot grazes skull (new?)
**PM&IF 81 (3:4-3:5)-FB recovery at Halwani hospital and loss of memory
PM&IF 65

BRUTO THE STRONGMAN/ 
T 145
**PM 25 (5:1-5:5)-FB Livewire frees circus of crime.
**PM 24
**PM 25
HTD 27

BURSTEIN, DR. NOAH
**PM&IF 83 (15:4-16:7)-FB Noah experiments on Warhawk
**PM 35 (9:3-10:7)-FB Noah experiments on Jack Daniels
LCHFH 1
. . .
PM 21
**PM 22 (3:1- 3:3)-FB-BTS Noah sent a messenger to Luke to deliver Claires postcard.
PM 24
. . .
PM 35
**PM 37
**PM 39
PM 40
. . . 
PM 43
**PM 49 (3:6-5:4)-FB Noah as Bushmasters hostage to coerce Luke
*PM&IF 49 should read just PM 49 (Power Man became Power Man and Iron Fist on the cover of #50 and in the indicia of #67)
PM&IF 67

BUSHMASTER/JOHN MCIVER 
{IF 15} 
**PM&IF 67 (12:6)-FB Bushmaster with Maya Korday 
M/TU 63
PM 49-FB
PM 48-BTS
*PM&IF 49 should read PM 49 (Power Man became Power Man and Iron Fist on the cover of #50 and in the indicia of #67)
PM&IF 67

CAGE, LUKE/CARL LUCAS
*CAGE 3 (1-3:3)-FB Luke and Willis gangbanging; father angry; maybe c14
*CAGE 3 (11:3-11:6)-FB Willis and Luke fighting, arrested
*CAGE 3 (13:3-14:3)-FB retrieved by father from police station;fight with brother James
*HFH 17 (12:6)-FB Luke and Willis - smash-and grab
**LCHFH 1 (9:2 - 9:8)-FB Luke and Willis growing up in Harlem; run from cops 
**CAGE 3 (21:1-21:3)-FB last gang fight for Luke 
**LCHFH 1 (10:1 - 10-3)-FB WS deeper into rackets
**PM&IF 68 (12:4)-FB friendship after outgrowing gang
*HFH 17 (13:2)-FB Luke meets Reva
**LCHFH 1 (10:4 -13:2)-FB Willis and Reva date then break up; Willis blames Luke;Luke arrives home  met by police
**HFH 17 (13:3)-FB handcuffed
**PM&IF 50 (3:2-3:5)-FB Luke`s sentencing and his first days at Seagate
**PM&IF 105 (12:4)-FB Luke at Seagate with Eugene Mason (Crimebuster)
**LCHFH 1 (8:7)-FB Parole hearing
*{LCHFH 1} (1-20:5)
**LCHFH 2 (6:6-FB) jumping a freight train
*{LCHFH 1} (20:6-21:6)
**LCHFH 2 (7:1 - 8:3)-FB gets Suit & businesscards, visits Reva's grave
*{LCHFH 1} (22:1-23:5)
MARVELS 4 (9 - 10)
LCHFH 2
. . . 
PM 21
*PM 22 should be moved to after the Defenders storyline. in PM 22 (2:6), Luke references the Richmond foulup (i.e. the Defenders storyline). And in the flashback.... I barely got back to my office from that bummer  [referring to the Defenders storyline] when this brother... (3:1). 
DEF 17
DEF 18
DEF 19
**PM 22 (3:1- 3:3)-FB gets message from Dr Burstein, postcard from Claire. 
*PM 22 moved from current position before DEF 17 
PM 23
. . . 
PM 28
**PM 29 (4:2-4:4)-FB Luke meets with clients
PM 29
. . . 
DEF 46
**PM@ 1 (9:4  11:6)-FB story intro
**PM@ 1 (13:2-15:4)-FB Luke arrives in japan
PM@ 1
. . . .
PM 47
**PM 49 (3:6-5:4)-FB Bushmaster uses hostages to get Lukes co-operation
PM 48
*PM&IF 49 should read PM 49 (Power Man became Power Man and Iron Fist on the cover of #50 and in the indicia of #67)
**PM&IF 50 (5:3)-FB Lukes name cleared in court
PM&IF 50
.....
PM&IF 63
*PM&IF 64 (1-14:4)
**PM&IF 65 (3:8)-FB just before entering hideout; observed by El Aguila
*PM&IF 64 (14:5-17:10)
M/TU@ 3
. . . 
PM&IF 68
**PM&IF 69 (5:2/2-6:5)-FB story intro
**PM&IF 69 (10:1/2-10:6)-FB intro continued
PM&IF 69
. . . 
PM&IF 124
**PM&IF 125 (3:1-36:7)-FB main story related after the fact by Cage
PM&IF 125


CANNONBALL/JACK PULVER
DD 118
*PM 25-FB suggested removal. The scene in PM 25 ( 5:5) shows 5 males being released. Its not super clear,but four of them appear to be mustached (Ringmaster, Bambonno Bros and Bruto?) and the last has more of the Clowns height and bearing than Cannonballs. As the Gambonno brothers, Bruto the Strongman and the Clown are with Ringmaster in PM 25, its my thought that those are the 5 represented in 5:5. Possibly they had been gathered to be taken to arraignment somewhere relating to T 145 where these 5 were last together. 
HTD 27

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN GRANT ROGERS
H2 323
**PM&IF 125 (3:1-36:7)-FB main story related after the fact by Cage
PM&IF 125

CAPTAIN MARVEL II/MONICA RAMBEAU
H2 323
**PM&IF 125 (3:1-36:7)-FB main story related after the fact by Cage
PM&IF 125

CHAKA KHAN 
IF 8
**IF 9 (3:5-7:3)-FB Chaka confronts Ward Meachum; defeats Iron Fist
**IF 9 (9:7-10:6)-FB Chaka poisons Iron Fist
*IF 9 (1-11:6)
**PM&IF 72 (5:1)-FB Chaka starts to hypnotize William Hao
*IF 9 (11:7-17:6)
*IF 10 (1-17:4)
**PM 72 (5:4)-FB Chaka vows revenge
*IF 10-BTS (17:5) driven off in paddy wagon
PM&IF 72

CHEMISTRO III/CALVIN CARR 
PM&IF 94
**PM&IF 96 (8:4)-FB training
PM&IF 96

CLOWN/"CRAFTY" ELIOT FRANKLIN
T 173
**PM 25 (5:1-5:5)-FB Livewire frees circus of crime
PM 24
PM 25

COCKROACH/ 
**PM 28
**PM 30
**PM 31
TER 6

COMANCHE 
LCHFH 1
LCHFH 14-FB
*LCHFH 14 (1:16:3)
**LCHFH 15 (1:2)-FB Shades and Comanche set out to kill Rackham
*LCHFH 14 (16:4-19:6)
*LCHFH 15 (1-2:3)
*LCHFH 16 (3:5)-FB
*LCHFH 15 (2:4-3:5)
*LCHFH 16 (4:1)-FB
*LCHFH 15 (4:1-11:4)
**LCHFH 16
PM 49-FB

CONSTRICTOR/FRANK PAYNE/"FRANK SCHLICTING"
CA@ 5
*PM&IF 78 to be deleted.
*PM&IF 84 (1-5:5)
**PM&IF 84 (9:3-10:7)-FB guarding the entrance while Sabretooth plays with Harmony
*PM&IF 84 (6:1-22:5)
M/TIO 96

COTTONMOUTH 
**PM 18-BTS was responsible for FLEAs death. (PM 18 (19:7))
PM 19

CRIME-BUSTER/ 
**PM&IF 105 (8:4)-FB Crime-Buster in Seagate with Luke Cage
*PM&IF 105 (1-1:5)
**PM&IF 105 (8:1-8:2)-FB finds costume
*PM&IF 105 (2:122:4)

DIAMOND, BOB
PM&IF 65 
**PM&IF 66
PM&IF 72
. . . 
PM&IF 79
*PM&IF 84 (1-5:5)
**PM&IF 84 (9:3-10:7)-FB attacks Constrictor when returning to rescue Harmony
*PM&IF 84 (6:1-22:5)
PM&IF 92

DIAMONDBACK/WILLIS STRYKER
*CAGE 3 (1-3:3)-FB Luke and Willis gangbanging
**CAGE 3 (11:3-11:6)-FB Willis and Luke fighting, arrested
**CAGE 3 (13:3-14:3)-FB at police station when Luke picked up by father
*HFH 17 (12:6)-FB Luke and Willis - smash-and grab
**LCHFH 1 (9:2  10:3)-FB Luke and Willis growing up in Harlem; meets Reva 
**CAGE 3 (21:1-21:3)-FB last gang fighting with Luke 
*HFH 17 (13:2)-FB Luke meets Reva
**LCHFH 1 (10:4 -13:1)-FB Reva dates, then breaks off with Willis; Willis blames Luke
**PM 49 (5:1)-FB-FB Photo of Willis planting the drugs to frame Luke
**LCHFH 1 (13:4)-FB Willis tells Reva he can help Luke
**HFH 17 (13:5)-FB Willis tries to moves in on Reva
**LCHFH 1 (13:5-14:1)-FB attacked by syndicate enforcers, Reva killed, Willis escapes
LCHFH 1
LCHFH 2
*CAGE 3-FB delete ... relocated to earlier
*HFH 17-FB delete ... relocated to earlier

DOCTOR PYM/HANK PYM
H2 323
*PM&IF 125 should read PM&IF 125 (3:1-36:7)-FB. Pg 3:136:7 take place prior to pg 1.
WCA2 11

EL AGUILA
PM&IF 58
**PM&IF 65 (3:8)-FB watched Luke and Fist enter Mr. Lucks hideout
PM&IF 65
PM&IF 78

FALCON/SAM WILSON
PM&IF 123
*PM&IF 125 should read PM&IF 125 (3:1-36:7)-FB. Pg 3:136:7 take place prior to pg 1.
CA 317

FAROUK 
PM&IF 60
*PM&IF 81 Im not seeing the Farouk from PM&IF 60 in PM&IF 81

FERA 
**M/PREM 15 (13:2-16:5)-FB According to PM&IF 97 (16:2), Fera was the first wolf to reach Heather Rand.
PM&IF 97

FLEA
LCHFH 11
**LCHFH 16 (2:5-3:2)-FB Flea meets Phil Fox
**LCHFH 16 (3:5-4:1)-FB Flea meets with Comanche and shades
**LCHFH 15
**LCHFH 16
**PM 18

GAMBONNO, ERNESTO 
DD 118
**PM 25 (5:1-5:5)-FB Livewire frees circus of crime
PM 24

GAMBONNO, LUIGI 
DD 118
**PM 25 (5:1-5:5)-FB Livewire frees circus of crime
PM 24

*GRIFFITH, D.W. should be GRIFFITH, DAVE D.W. (as per LCHFH 2 (13:1), D.W. is just a nickname) 
PM 30
**PM31
PM 33
**PM34
PM 35
. . . .
PM&IF 79
**PM&IF 80
PM&IF 83
. . . 
PM&IF 90
**PMIF 92
PM&IF 93
. . . .
PM&IF 108
*PM&IF 111 delete... D.W. is not in this issue
CAGE 6

HAMMERHEAD II/
FF 233
** PM&IF 92 (2:4)-FB recaptured by police
PM&IF 92

HERCULES [GREEK GOD]
H2 323
**PM&IF 125 (3:1-36:7)-FB main story related after the fact by Cage
PM&IF 125

HOGARTH, JERYN
PM&IF 110-FB 
**{IF 6} (3:4-7:2)-FB
**IF 8
**IF 9 (3:5-7:3)-FB at meeting attacked by Chaka
*{IF 14} remove {}
M/TU 63-BTS . . . . 
M/TU 64-BTS
**PM&IF 50 (5:3)-FB clears Lukes name in court
PM&IF 50
. . .
PM&IF 63
** PM&IF 64-BTS (5:1) Talked on phone to Iron Fist earlier in the day
PM&IF 65
. . . . 
PM&IF 100
*PM&IF 102 should read PM&IF 103
PM&IF 105
. . .
PM&IF 114
*PM&IF 125 should read PM&IF 125 (3:1-36:7)-FB. Pg 3:136:7 take place prior to pg 1.
CAGE 1

IRON FIST/DANIEL RAND
M/PRM 24-FB
DHKF 19-FB
**PM&IF 100 (4:1)-FB trekking on a previous leg (Danny in second position)
*{M/PRM 15} (4:4/2-6:6)-FB mountain trekking (Danny in third position) upto Wendell barely hanging on
**PM&IF 71 (15:4)-FB Danny and Heather see Wendell start to fall
*M/PRM 15 (6:7-9:6/1)-FB Wendells death up to Danny and Heather ready to start climbing out
*M/PRM 15 (13:2-16:3)-FB climbing out to wolves attacking Heather
**PM&IF 100 (4:5)-FB mid battle at bridge; wolves still alive
*M/PRM 15 (16:4-16:5)-FB wolves dead, Danny welcomed to Kun Lun 
*M/PRM 16-FB (4:1-5:4)
M/PRM 18-FB (13:2)
*M/PRM 16-FB (5:5)-FB early training
**PM&IF 100 (4:6)-FB exercises
*M/PRM 16 (5:6-5:9)-FB later training
**PM&IF 63-FB (8:6)-FB rice paper test
*M/PRM 16 (5:10-6:2)-FB 16th birthday
DHKF 20-FB
*M/PRM 16 (7:6-12:1)-FB gets iron fist
DHKF 21-FB
M/PRM 23-FB grown... locket challenge
**PM&IF 75 (16:2-16:7)-FB fate of Miranda
*M/PRM 16 (14:2-15:6)-FB final test, departs from Kun Lun
. . . .
IF 5
**IF 6 (3:4-7:2)-FB catch up... starts two days before pg 1. 
IF 6
IF 7
**PM&IF 70 (9:7)-FB Iron Fist visiting Lee Wing
IF 8
*IF 9 (3:5-6:1)-FB meeting at Meachum building attacked by Chaka
**PM&IF 72 (4:6)-FB Iron Fist confronts two hirelings when first challenging Chaka
*IF 9 (6:2-7:3)-FB fights chaka, knocked out
*IF (9:7-10:6)-FB an hour before IF 9, poisoned by Chaka
IF 9
**IF 10 (4:1-4:2/1)-FB 
**PM&IF 72 (5:3)-FB Iron fist tries to explain to police
**IF 10 (4:2/2-4:6)-FB
*IF 10 (1-17:4)
**PM&IF 72 (5:4)-FB Chaka vows revenge
*IF 10 (17:5)
. . . . 
PM 48
*PM&IF 49 should read PM 49 (Power Man became Power Man and Iron Fist on the cover of #50 and in the indicia of #67)
CX 13/2
**PM&IF 50-FB (5:3) in court when Luke had his name cleared
PM&IF 50
. . . . 
PM&IF 63
*PM&IF 64 (1-14:4)
**PM&IF 65 (3:8)-FB just before entering hideout; observed by El Aguila
*PM&IF 64 (14:5-17:10)
M/TU@ 3
. . .
PM&IF 68
**PM&IF 69 (5:2/2-6:5)-FB story intro
**PM&IF 69 (10:1/2-10:6)-FB intro continued
*PM&IF 69 (1-12:8)
**PM&IF 69 (16:5)-FB Iron Fist disposing of bomb
*PM&IF 69 (13:1-17:6)
. . . . . 
H2 279
*PM&IF 84 (1-5:5)
*PM&IF 84 (9:3-10:7)-FB Danny fights Sabretooth; saves Harmony
*PM&IF 84 (6:1-22:5)
PM&IF 85

IRON FIST H'YLTHRI IMPOSTER 
PM&IF 124
* PM&IF 125 should be PM&IF 125 (3:1-36:7)-FB main story related after the fact by Cage

IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK
H2 323
**PM&IF 125
WCA2 11

KNIGHT, MISTY
{M/TU 1}
*IF 6-FB should be IF 6 (4:5-4:7)-FB-FB
**PM&IF 59 (13:3)-FB right after losing her arm
CX 2/2
. . . 
DHKF 33/2
**IF 6 (3:4-7:2)-FB catchup.. from 2 days before start of story
IF 6
IF 7
IF 8
*IF 9 should be IF 9 (3:5-7:3)-FB Chaka attacks meeting at Meachum building
IF 10
. . . 
IF 15 
**PM&IF 67 (12:6)-FB Misty as Maya Korday with Bushmaster
M/TU 63
. . . . 
PM 48
*PM&IF 49 should read PM 49 (Power Man became Power Man and Iron Fist on the cover of #50 and in the indicia of #67)
CX 13/2
**PM&IF 50 (5:3)-FB In court when Lukes name was cleared
PM&IF 50
. . . .
PM&IF 83
*PM&IF 84 (1-5:5)
**PM&IF 84 (9:3-10:7)-FB attacks Constrictor when returning to rescue Harmony
*PM&IF 84 (6:1-22:5)
DAZZ 21

LEI KUNG, THE THUNDERER
M/PRM 22-FB
**PM&IF 75 (10:4)-FB present at Wendell Rands adoption
M/TU 64-FB
{M/PRM 16-FB}
M/PRM 18-FB (13:2)
*M/PRM 16-FB (5:5)-FB early training
**PM&IF 100 (4:6)-FB exercises
*M/PRM 16-FB (5:6-5:9)-FB later training
**PM&IF 63 (8:6)-FB rice paper test
*M/PRM 16 (5:10-6:2)-FB 16th birthday
DHKF 20-FB
. . . . . 
M/TU 64
*PM&IF 74 To be Deleted; Lei Kung is not in this issue.
PM&IF 75

LIVEWIRE/RANCE PRESTON
FF@ 5
**PM 25 (5:1- 5:5)-FB Livewire frees circus of crime
PM 24

LIVING MONOLITH/AHMET ABDOL
M/TU 70
**PM&IF 57 (15:4-15:6)-FB Dr. Abdol joins archeological team
PM&IF 56

*MACE/ GIDEON . . . COL. GIDEON MACE (LCHFH 3 (8:7))

MAGNUM, MOSES 
GSS-M 4
**PM@ 1 (19:6-19:7)-FB how Magnum survived
PM@ 1

MASTER KHAN/TYRONE KING
**PM&IF 119(4:1-7:7)-FB at the time of Shou Laos transformation to serpent
ST 77
**PM&IF 119 (13:7-15:6)-FB imprisons Chiantang 
M/PRM 22
. . .
PM&IF 75
*PM&IF 119 (18:2)-FB unable to stop the destruction of Kun Lun. This is currently placed a little later in the chronology. I moved it up due to Khan mentioning he was still weak from his battle with Luke and Fist, with ed note referring to PM&IF 75.
**PM&IF 95-BTS (responsible for attack on wedding party)
*PM&IF 97-BTS should be PM&IF 97-VO . Khans voice is heard by Fera (19:2) 
PM&IF 98-BTS
. . .
N 25-FB
*PM&IF 119-FB relocated to an earlier placement
PM&IF 117
. . .
PM&IF 123
**PM&IF 125 (3:1-36:7)-FB main story related after the fact by Cage
PM&IF 125 

MEACHUM, HAROLD 
DHKF 19-FB
**PM&IF 100 (4:1)-FB trekking on a leg before the fateful fall (Danny is in second position)
*{M/PRM 15} (4:4/2-6:6)-FB mountain trekking (Danny in third position) upto Wendell barely hanging on
**PM&IF 71 (15:4)-FB Harold watches as Danny and Heather see Wendell start to fall
*M/PRM 15 (6:7-9:6/1)-FB Wendells death up to Danny and Heather abandoned by Meachum

MEACHUM, JOY
M/PRM 21
**IF 8
**IF 9 (3:5-7:3)-FB meeting attacked by Chaka
**PM&IF 51
PM&IF 52

MEACHUM, WARD
IF 1-BTS
**IF 8
**IF 9 (3:5-7:3)-FB at meeting attacked by Chaka
IF 10
. . . 
PM&IF 100
*PM&IF 119-FB delete. Im not seeing him in this issue.
N 18-FB

*MR. DEATH real name: PHILIP GARCIA

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
H2 321
** PM&IF 125 (3:1 - 36:7)-FB main story related after the fact by Cage
PM&IF 125

*MR. LUCK II/PHILIP GARCIA real name should be JAIME GARCIA (PM&IF 63 (5:2))
**CA 224 (12:5-13:2)-FB with Tarantula, discovers undercover Captain America
**CA 224 (14:1-15:3)-FB fighting Captain America 
CA 224 
**PM&IF 56
PM&IF 63

NIGHTSHADE/TILDA 
**PM&IF 53 (10:4-10:7)-FB Nightshades formative years
CA 164
**CA 190 (5:1-5:6)-FB how Nightshade survived her fall in CA 164
CA 189
CA 190
**PM&IF 53 (10:8)-FB Nightshades escape from jail
**PM&IF 51 (9:3-9:6)-BTS Nightshades robotic protection gang sets in
PM&IF 51

PRINCESS PYTHON/ZELDA 
DD 118
*CA 180 relocated from after PM 25. PM 25 (5:6), Princess Python refers to ...my unfortunate involvement with the Serpent Squad and my incarceration... with Ed note to CA 180& 181
*CA 181 relocated from after PM 25
PM 24
PM 25
*CA 180 moved
*CA 181 moved
HTD 26

RAND, HEATHER DUNCAN 
DHKF 19-FB
**PM&IF 100 (4:1)-FB trekking on a previous leg (Danny in second position)
*{M/PRM 15} (4:4/2-6:6)-FB mtn trekking (Danny in third position) upto Wendell barely hanging on
**PM&IF 71 (15:4)-FB Danny and Heather see Wendell start to fall
*M/PRM 15 (6:7-9:6/1)-FB Wendells death up to Danny and Heather ready to start climbing out
*M/PRM 15 (13:2-16:5)-FB climbing out up to her death
DHKF 23-FB

RAND-K'AI, WENDELL 
**PM&IF 75 (9:1-10:1)-FB Wendell saves Lord Tuan and Yu-Ti
**PM&IF 75 (10:3-10:6)-FB adopted, weds Shakari, fathers Miranda
M/TU 64-FB beats Davos in Test of Combat
**PM&IF 75 (11:2-11:6)-FB Wendell leaves Kun Lun
**PM&IF 100 (4:1)-FB trekking on a leg prior to the fatal fall (Danny in second position)
*{M/PRM 15} (4:4/2-6:6)-FB mountain trekking (Danny in third position) upto Wendell barely hanging on
**PM&IF 71 (15:4)-FB Danny and Heather see Wendell start to fall
*M/PRM 15 (6:7-7:1)-FB Wendell falls to his death.

RINGMASTER II/MAYNARD TIBOLDT 
DD 118
**PM 25 (5:1- 5:5)-FB Livewire frees circus of crime
PM 24

ROYCE, JENNIE 
PM&IF 56
**PM&IF 57
**PM&IF 58
PM&IF 59
. . . 
PM&IF 67
*PM&IF 69 should be PM&IF 69 (5:2/2-6:5)-FB
PM&IF 72
. ..
PM&IF 90
**PM&IF 91-BTS called and left message for Luke about new client
PM&IF 93
. . . .
PM&IF 100
**PM&IF 105-BTS on phone (14:6-15:3)
PM&IF 109

SABRETOOTH/VICTOR CREED
PM&IF 66
*PM&IF 78 to be deleted
*PM&IF 84 (1-5:5)
**PM&IF 84 (9:3-10:7)-FB fight with Iron Fist after attacking Harmony
*PM&IF 84 (6:1-22:5)

SCARFE, RAFAEL
PM&IF 51
**PM&IF 53
**PM&IF 56
PM&IF 59

SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF
DEF 124
**PM&IF 102 (10:3-11:5)-FB story intro
PM&IF 102

SHADES 
LCHFH 1
LCHFH 14-FB
*LCHFH 14 (1:16:3)
**LCHFH 15 (1:2)-FB Shades and Comanche set out to kill Rackham
*LCHFH 14 (16:4-19:6)
*LCHFH 15 (1-2:3)
*LCHFH 16 (3:5)-FB
*LCHFH 15 (2:4-3:5)
*LCHFH 16 (4:1)-FB
*LCHFH 15 (4:1-11:4)
**LCHFH 16
PM 49-FB

*SHREEVE full name: SHREEVE, SIMON 
PM&IF 51 
**PM&IF 52

STEEL SERPENT II/DAVOS 
{IF 1}
**IF 8
**IF 9 (3:5-7:3)-FB 
IF 15

STEEPLEJACK II/MAXWELL PLUMM 
**PM 18
MSM 14

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE
H2 323
*PM&IF 125 should read PM&IF 125 (3:1-36:7)-FB. Pg 3:136:7 take place prior to pg 1.
CA 318

SUPER SKRULL/KL'RT [SKRULL]
PM&IF 121
*PM&IF 125 should read PM&IF 125 (3:1-36:7)-FB. Pg 3:136:7 take place prior to pg 1.
SS@ 1

TEMPLE, CLAIRE
**PM 24 (8:3-8:8)-FB Claire & Bill Fosters marriage and divorce.
LCHFH 2
. . . . 
LCHFH 11
**LCHFH 12
**LCHFH 13
**LCHFH 14
LCHFH 15
*LCHFH 16 (1-18:6)
**PM&IF 61 (6:5)-FB in court
*LCHFH 16 (19:1-19:5)
PM 18
. . . . 
PM 33
**PM 35
PM 37
. . . . 
PM 43
**PM 49 (3:6-5:4)-FB Claire as Bushmasters hostage to coerce Luke
*PM&IF 49 should read PM 49 (Power Man became Power Man and Iron Fist on the cover of #50 and in the indicia of #67)
**PM&IF 50
PM&IF 78

THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM
M/TIO 44
**PM&IF 55-BTS The Thing delivers and picks up the Fantasticar from the car show every morning and night (7:4).
FF 203

THUNDERBOLT/BILLY CARVER 
**DD 69 (8:2-11:1)-FB returns from war, hassled by gangs
DD 69 
**PM 42 (4:5-4:8)-FB good times with brother
**PM&IF 61 (16:3)-FB brother Lonny shot
**PM 42 (4:9-6:4)-FB injured, then gains power
PM 41 

TOWER, BLAKE
DD 148
** PM&IF 51
PM&IF 53

VISION II
DEF 124
**PM&IF 102 (10:3-11:5)-FB story intro
PM&IF 102

WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM
H2 323
*PM&IF 125 should read PM&IF 125 (3:1-36:7)-FB. Pg 3:136:7 take place prior to pg 1.
CA 317-BTS

WHYTE, HARMONY (HARMONY YOUNG)
PM&IF 83
*PM&IF 84 (1-5:5)
**PM&IF 84 (9:3-10:7) Iron Fist saves Harmony from Sabretooth
*PM&IF 84 (6:1-22:5)
DAZZ 21
. . . . 
PM&IF 95
*PM&IF 96 should read PM&IF 97
PM&IF 98
. . .
PM&IF 106
**PM&IF 107
PM&IF 108

WING, COLLEEN
**PM&IF 70 (21:3)-FB Colleen around 11, with her grandfather
M/PRM 19
. . . .
M/PRM 24
**PM&IF 70 (9:1-9:2)-FB Colleen and her father just prior to, and at the moment of, Angars attack
M/PRM 25
. . . .
PM 48
*PM&IF 49 should read PM 49 (Power Man became Power Man and Iron Fist on the cover of #50 and in the indicia of #67)
CX 13/2
**PM&IF 50 (5:3)-FB in court when Likes name cleared.
PM&IF 50
PM&IF 51
*PM&IF 53 Colleen does not appear in this issue 
UX 118
...
PM&IF 78
**PM&IF 79
PM&IF 83
*PM&IF 84 (1-5:5)
**PM&IF 84 (9:3-10:7)-FB attacks Constrictor when returning to rescue Harmony
*PM&IF 84 (6:1-22:5)
PM&IF 90

WING, LEE 
DHKF 19
**PM&IF 70 (9:1-9:2)-FB Lee and Colleen just prior to, and at the moment of, Angars attack
M/PRM 25
**PM&IF 70 (9:7)-FB Visited by Iron Fist
PM&IF 70

			*	*	*

Jun 03, 2008 9:55 pm 
By Arthur
Director

Power Man audit: new candidates for project inclusion:

BARON (wannabe crime boss)
PM 37-VO
PM 38-VO
PM 39


BERTHA (GEM theatre employee)
LCHFH 2
LCHFH 10
LCHFH 14-BTS (17:6) talked to Claire Temple
PM 17
PM 21
PM 34
PM 35
PM 37
PM 41
PM&IF 91


BIG BROTHER (wannabe crime boss)
PM 39 (6:5-7:3)-FB Big Brothers youth experience
PM 37-VO
PM 38
PM 39


BLIND TOBY
PM&IF 56
PM&IF 60
PM&IF 64
PM&IF 67
PM&IF 84
PM&IF 93
PM&IF 100


BORIS (of Boris & Ninotchka, Russian freelance agents)
PM&IF 77
PM&IF 81
PM&IF 82


BURGUNDY (accomplice of Gideon Mace)
PM 43
PM 44
PM 45
PM 46


CARVER, LONNY (Thunderbolts brother)
DD 69 (8:2-11:1, 11:4-12:2)-FB Good student, went bad
DD 69 
PM 42 (4:5-4:8)-FB good times with older brother
PM&IF 61 (16:3)-FB shot
PM 42 (4:9- 6:4)-FB dies


CAVENAUGH, ALAN
IF 5
IF 6 (3:4-7:2)-FB 
IF 9
PM&IF 59
PM&IF 60


CHASE, CHRISTIE
PM 30
PM 31
PM 32
PM 34


CHASE, QUENTIN
PM 28
PM 30
PM 31
PM 32
PM 33
PM 34
PM 35


CHECKPOINT CHARLIE (hireling of the Baron) 
PM 37 
PM 38


CHESHIRE CAT (hireling of Big Brother) 
PM 37
PM 38
PM 39
PM 40


CHIANTANG
PM&IF 119 (4:1-7:7)-FB transforms Shou Lao to serpent
PM&IF 119 (13:7-18:2)-FB imprisonment and recent destruction of Kun Lun
PM&IF 118
PM&IF 119
PM&IF 120
PM&IF 121
PM&IF 122


CONNERS, REVA
LCHFH 1 (10:3)-FB Willis Stryker meets Reva
LHFH 17 (13:2)-FB Luke Cage meets Reva
LCHFH 1 (10:4- 13:4) Reva dates then breaks up with Willis, dates Luke; when Luke jailed Willis offers help
HFH 17 (13:5)-FB Willis tries to move in on Reva
LCHFH 1 (13:5-14:1) Reva killed during attempt on Willis's life


DOOMBRINGER
PM&IF 104 (5:2-5:5)-FB
PM&IF 103
PM&IF 104
(with resultant shift of current DOOMBRINGER ==> DOOMBRINGER II)


FONTAINE, SALLY
PM&IF 74
PM&IF 80


GADGET
LCHFH 2
PM 49 (3:6-5:4)-FB Gadget shows Luke the evidence of Diamondback framing Luke
PM 49
PM&IF 60
PM&IF 67


GORDY (agent of Special Military Intelligence Law Enforcement...SMILE)
PM&IF 112
PM&IF 114
PM&IF 118
PM&IF 124
PM&IF 125 (3:1-36:7)-FB 
PM&IF 125


GRUNDGE, CHARLTON (Adonis chemicals Rep)
PM 28
PM 30
PM 33


HAO, WILLIAM 
IF 9 (1-11:6)
PM&IF 72 (5:1)-FB Chaka start to hypnotize William
IF 9 (11:7-17:6)
IF 10 (4:1-4:2/1)-FB unconscious , found by police
PM&IF 72 (5:3)-FB still unconscious; Iron fist tries to explain
IF 10 (4:2/2-4:3)-FB still unconscious; police confront Iron fist 
IF 10 (1-17:4)
PM&IF 72 (5:4)-FB Chaka vows revenge
IF 10 (17:5)
PM&IF 61
PM&IF 67 
PM&IF 71
PM&IF 72
PM&IF 83


JENKS, FRANK
LCHFH 5 (1-2:5)
LCHFH 10 (8:3)-FB Jenks being stabbed
LCHFH 5 (3:1-20:7)


JENKS, MRS. FRANK
LCHFH 5
LCHFH 10
LCHFH 11
LCHFH 14
LCHFH 15
LCHFH 16


KNOX, ALEXANDRIA
H2 183
PM 47


LUMUS, JONATHAN JOHN
PM&IF 117
PM&IF 124
PM&IF 125 (3:1-36:7)-FB


LUMUS, STANLEY
PM&IF 115 
PM&IF 116


MANGLER II/DANIELS
PM 35 (9:3-10:7) attended brother Jacks death
PM 34
PM 35
(With the resulting shift current MANGLER II/ ==> MANGLER III)


MOSS, GRASSY
PM 30
PM 33


NINOTCHKA (of Boris & Ninotchka, Russian freelance agents)
PM&IF 77
PM&IF 81
PM&IF 82


QUIRT (Seagate Guard)
PM&IF 50 (3:2-3:5)-FB Lukes first days at Seagate.
LCHFH 1


RACKHAM, BILLY BOB (Seagate Guard)
PM&IF 50 (3:2-3:5)-FB Lukes first days at Seagate.
LCHFH 1
LCHFH 14 (3:5 - 3:7)-FB at seagate after Luke's escape
LCHFH 14 (4:2 - 4:5)-FB Rackham fired.
LCHFH 14
LCHFH 16


RAND'KAI, MIRANDA (Wendells daughter)
PM&IF 75 (10:6)-FB young child 
PM&IF 75 (16:2-16:7)-FB sentencing, escape from Kun Lun and death
PM&IF 75


REVEL, MARK
H2 183
PM 47


SHIPMAN, SHELDON
DD 178
PM&IF 77


SHOU LAO 
PM&IF 119 (4:3-6:7)-FB-BTS angers Chiantang and is transformed to serpent
PM&IF 75 (10:4-11:1)-FB confronted by Wendall RandKai 
M/PRM 16 (8:5-10:2)-FB defeated by Iron Fist


SIMMONS, ALEX
PM 32
PM 33
PM 34
PM 35


SIMMONS, BETH
PM 32
PM 33
PM 34
PM 35


SIMMONS, SANDRA
PM 32
PM 33
PM 35


SIMMS, GEORGIE
LCHFH 5
LCHFH 8


SNEAGLE, OLIVER P.
PM 34
PM 38
PM 43


SOLACE
PM&IF 64
PM&IF 67
PM&IF 73
PM&IF 84
PM&IF 90
PM&IF 96


SPEAR/DANIELS
PM 35 (9:3-10:7)-FB attended brother Jacks death
PM 28 . . .unnamed (10:8)
PM 33
PM 34 
PM 35 (3:5-3:7)-FB Spear escaping after shooting Dr. Burstein
PM 35
(With the resultant shift current SPEAR ==> SPEAR II)


STUART, WARDEN TYLER
LCHFH 1
PM 22
PM&IF 50


WALTERS, MAXINE
PM&IF 116
PM&IF 117
PM&IF 121
PM&IF 122
PM&IF 124
PM&IF 125-FB (3:1-36:7)-FB. 
PM&IF 125


WEASEL (agent of SMILE)
PM&IF 114
PM&IF 118-BTS on other end of phone (2:1)
PM&IF 124
(With the resultant shifts, current WEASEL ==> WEASEL II and current WEASEL II ==> WEASEL III)


WICHITA KID
PM 18
PM&IF 51

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Subject: Iron Man - Beth Cabe query

Jun 04, 2008 7:37 am 
By loki

Apologies if this is in the wrong section; if so, please move it. I'd like to ask the help of anyone on the MCP familiar with Iron Man and his supporting cast.

Numerous internet sources claim Bethany Cabe's middle name is Ann. However, when I was writing her entry for the Iron Manual, I didn't see any evidence of that middle name while reading her stories - I did find an entirely different middle name, Camilla, in Iron Man #300's profile on her. I can see 3 possibilities:

1. It's an internet name, proof of how false information disseminated online can spread. I'm inclined to take this as the most likely option (someone misreading Bethany as Beth Ann), but I likewise don't wish to be falsely confidant and make an error in the Handbooks because of it.

2. I missed a passing mention of Ann somewhere in her stories.

3. A middle name of Ann is given in an issue where she is mentioned but doesn't appear.

I'd like to make sure I haven't missed a genuine comic reference to her middle name. So please, if anyone can identify a place in the comics where she is given the middle name Ann, please can you let me know.

			*	*	*

Jun 04, 2008 11:24 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I could have sworn I saw Camilla somewhere... but I may be remembering the Iron Man 300 entry you're talking about. I went flipping through a couple 'important' Beth Cabe issues and stumbled across a Flashback that's not currently in her chronology, though: 

Iron Man 128-FB
Beth used to be married to Alexander Van Tilberg: Ambassador & pill popper! She felt powerless to help him with his addiction, so she left him. One day he drove his car off the road, and she felt like crap because she wasn't there for him. 
Iron Man 128
Having lived through that, she couldn't let Tony live with his alcohol addiction now. She helps him clean up his act in time to re-hire Jarvis, but not soon enough for Jarvis' last remaining stock holdings in Stark International to be sold to... Nick Fury!

CABE, BETHANY 
*IM 128-FB
IM 117
IM 118
...

I was planning to go through some more issues tonight, but I was distracted by the last page of Secret Invasion #3.  If I find something definite I'll let you know.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 9

Subject: So...how much time between OMD/BND?!?

Jun 01, 2008 10:30 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Found this from the "Brand New Day Panel" at Wizard World Philly: Here's Joe Quesada on how much time has passed...

>>>
Quesada elaborated, saying that they could not say that the stories did not happen, while pointing out that the time period from Peter and MJ's last kiss and Peter waking up in bed in the first 'Brand New Day' issue was left undefined on purpose. Asked if there was a time frame in mind insofar as how far apart those events occurred chronologically, Quesada said that it was "about a year, year and a half," Quesada said. Brevoort added that things from that period will start to unfold naturally.
<<<

*snicker* So, it's obvious then, that "Brand New Day" is the farthest ahead point in the Marvel universe. It's obviously after Secret Invasion" as well, then.  

A "year and a half", geez...and don't forget, all these passages of time, and he's still in his 20's, right Marvel?!? 

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Jun 07, 2008 4:58 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

I think that "about a year, year and a half," should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm sure the generous amount of time given was just to illustrate the point that Some Time Has Passed between pgs 22 & 23 of ASM 545.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 10

Subject: S-M 50

Jun 13, 2008 10:47 am 
By cweed4

The listing for S-M 50 needs a minor correction in designation. Currently, the comic's final story appears to be listed as a FB but it is clearly a second story (separate title, new credit listings). It only has appearances by 3 characters. Here are the suggested changes-

GRIM HUNTER/KRAVINOFF, VLADIMIR
***S-M 50/2***
S-M 47
S-M 48
S-M 49
S-M 50
S-M 53
WOSM 120
S-M 54
WOSM 121
S-M 55

KRAVEN THE HUNTER/SERGEI KRAVINOFF
ASM 389-FB
ASM 375/4-FB
SENSM '96-FB
***S-M 50/2*** (change in designation)
SENSM '96
{ASM 15}

GREGOR
***S-M 50/2***
***S-M 47***
***S-M 48***
***S-M 49***
S-M 50
S-M 54
WOSM 121
S-M 55
KZ4 1

Also added extra appearances from S-M 47-49 for Gregor that weren't currently listed.

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Subject: ASM 387

Jun 13, 2008 12:54 pm 
By cweed4

ASM 386-388 is the Lifetheft storyline that resolves the mystery of Peter Parker's "resurrected" parents. The current chronology lists a double entry for ASM 387 that I think needs some adjustment. I assume the time gap for the second entry is based on the final couple of pages in which Peter reveals his identity to the Richard & Mary robots. This gap is required because of MJ's brush w/ death in ASM 386 and her telling Peter about it in WOSM 111 (which needs to occur at some point during the Lifetheft timeframe). 

Now, that all fits w/ Spidey's chronology until ASM 388. In that issue the robots report to Chameleon "within 24 hours" as per their programming. So, the problem is that the second lisiting for ASM 387 should not have more than a day's worth of stories between it and ASM 388. The only single day adventure during this point is S-M 44. Pushing the listing after the Web of Doom mini (which supposedly covers 6 weeks  ) and PPTSS 209-210 is easy enough.

The other changes that would need to be made involve SMHS 1995/5-FB (which I have previously argued should be moved anyway) and Shroud 1&2. The only clues in the Shroud mini establishing a timeframe for Spidey come in issue 4 when Peter is lamenting the loss of his parents for a second time. The best fit then to move these entries would be after ASMU 5. In that comic, Spidey at one point laments why he hasn't gotten to face just a regular villain like Scorpion in a while (and, of course, that just so happens to be the villain in Shroud!). 

So, here are the changes I suggest- 

Spidey:
WOSM 111
SM:WD 1-FB
****** (ASM 387 moved)
SM:WD 1
SM:WD 2
SM:WD 3
PPTSS 209
PPTSS 210
SM:WD 3
***ASM 387***
S-M 44
****** (SMHS 1995/5-FB moved)
****** (SHROUD 1 moved)
****** (SHROUD 2 moved)
ASM 388
S-M 45-FB
S-M 45
ASM 388
S-M 45
PPTSS 211
WOSM 112
ASM 389
PPTSS 212
***ASMU 5***
***SHROUD 1***
***SHROUD 2***
SHROUD 4
***** (ASMU 5 moved)
NO2 3-FB

I don't think these minor adjustments would effect any other character entries.

			*	*	*

Thread 12

Subject: M/SHSW 7 in Venom chronology?

Jun 15, 2008 3:42 pm 
By Ork

SMF2 1 has been released only recently in France and I was reading the post about it.

When I read "His red & blue costume is oddly intact during it!", I searched for that scene in Secret Wars.
I found it is not "oddly intact." The part of his costume showned in SMF2 1 was not torn in M/SHSW 8.

It's in M/SHSW 8, right? Then where in M/SHSW 7 do you place that BTS for Venom?

By the way, I'd place SMF2 1 (1:3) between pages 24 and 25 of M/SHSW 8.

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Subject: Hulk/Thor battles, death of Dai Thomas' spouse

Mar 31, 2008 7:49 pm 
By Enda80

One of the great untold stories: Dai Thomas, policeman from Captain Britain stories, sees his wife
Valerie killed in a battle between the Hulk, Thor, and possibly a super-villain while in New York. Mentioned in Guardian article in Daredevils
(Marvel UK)#9 (which mentions involvement of the Hulk, location in New York, and "an unidentified super-villain), brief flashback in Captain Britain II#I (which shows a silhouette resembling that of Thor, without mentioning Thor by name), wife's name from Knights of Pendragon I.

Actually, outside of Avengers (thannks to Fantaco Chronicles Series#4:Avengers Chronicles), by 1982 (publishing year, of course), Thor and the Hulk had only met two times outside of the Avengers (Hulk#255, Defenders I#10-11 [during the Avengers/Defenders x-over]; JIM#112 is just an amplified fb to Avengers I#3, which took place in the Mediterreanean area) . The issue of the Guardian containing the reference to death of Valerie Thomas appears first in Daredevils#7 (July 1983) (we see the paragrapth about the death of Valerie Thomas in Daredevils#9 [September 1983]). Defenders I#10-11 took place in Los Angeles, not New York. Hulk#255 was published in 1981, and took place in New York. Moreover, in Daredevils#9, James Jaspers gave a speech which mentioned the Hulk's presidential pardon, which happened in Hulk#279. 

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/captinuk.htm

			*	*	*

Mar 31, 2008 8:11 pm 
By Enda80

http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3706&p=23504#p23504
Elsewhere, I have detailed my reasoning for why Thor I#255 probably represents the Hulk/Thor battle where Valerie Thomas died. Does anyone know of any reason why it could not be? Did Dai Thomas ever reference his status as a widower in a story that must take place before Hulk I#255?

			*	*	*

Mar 31, 2008 10:41 pm 
By Starman

Do you mean Hulk (vol. 2) #255, or did they also meet in Thor (vol. 1) #255?

- Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

			*	*	*

Mar 31, 2008 10:54 pm 
By jephyork
Director

DON'T START TWO THREADS ON THE EXACT SAME TOPIC IN TWO DIFFERENT FORUMS, THEN LINK TO THE FIRST ONE IN THE SECOND ONE.

What on earth is wrong with you? For crying out loud, you started the second thread 22 minutes after the first one.

Threads moved and merged. Bad Enda.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 01, 2008 3:40 am 
By Enda80

Thor and the Hulk did meet in Avengers#1, 2, 5, 100. Does the meeting in #100 take place in New York?

http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronocomic/entries/avengers_98100.shtml

			*	*	*

Apr 01, 2008 4:50 am 
By jephyork
Director

Thanks for completely failing to acknowledge the admonition you just got, Enda. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 01, 2008 4:58 pm 
By Enda80

Sorry, I get up at 4:00 in the morning to catch the 5:30 AM bus, and I replied just before going to work. I missed that admonition. 

Anyway, I am guessing that Avengers I#118 might serve as the most probable candidate for the Hulk and Thor meeting where Dai Thomas' spouse perished, of the Hulk and Thor meetings that were published before 1983. I feel quite sure that that meeting of Hulk and Thor was in New York.

			*	*	*

Apr 01, 2008 6:59 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Sorry, Hulk get up at 4:00 in the morning to catch the 5:30 am bus, and Hulk replied just before going to work. Hulk missed that admonition. 

Anyway, Hulk be guessing that Avengers Hulk#118 might serve as the most probable candidate for the Hulk and Thor meeting where Dai Thomas' spouse perished, of the Hulk and Thor meetings that were published before 1983. Hulk feel quite sure that that meeting of Hulk and Thor was in New York.
<<<

BAH! SMASHING PUNY THOR ALL BLEND TOGETHER FOR HULK! MAY HAVE BEEN NEW YORK, MAY HAVE BEEN SOMEWHERE ELSE! HULK WILL SMASH PUNY THOR AGAIN!

			*	*	*

Apr 02, 2008 8:07 pm 
By Enda80

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/sh ... dAuto=1707

Captain Britain I#8 seems to serve as the earliest reference to the death of Dai Thomas' spouse. Hulk and Thor meetings published before that issue include Avengers#1,2,3/JIM#112,5,100,116,118, and Defenders I#10-11.

It starts to appear as if Avengers I#116 and #118 served as the only recorded meeting between Thor and the Hulk that fits, or perhaps Avengers I#2. It may in fact have been the Space Phantom posing as the Hulk. So far as I know, only those appearances took place in New York.

			*	*	*

Apr 02, 2008 9:03 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I'm a little confused here. Are you trying to place a FlashBack that's not in the Project yet? Or is it a reference in the dialogue that you're trying to put into context? 

Either way, how do you know that whatever you're looking for is a previously published scene? Is it possible that whatever battle you're talking about is completely new to Captain Britain #8? Meaning, not an extension of a previously seen battle?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 02, 2008 9:09 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

I think he's contending that Thor was the "unidentified super-villain" that Hulk was battling, at the time.

But I'm not sure.


watching: clean house

			*	*	*

Apr 02, 2008 9:36 pm 
By SeanCurtin

There's a one-panel flashback that shows Dai holding his wife's body while two silhouetted figures fight in the background. One of the figures in silhouette is unmistakably Thor (the cape, helmet and hammer are clearly outlined), and (IIRC) the other is named as the Hulk in dialogue.

			*	*	*

Apr 02, 2008 10:16 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

All right, so we're trying to place a FlashBack.(thanks Sean) 

I see no reason at all to believe that this is a continuation of a previously published scene; I would contend that this is a new scene. So the question now is, what comic is this FlashBack from? We've been given a list of possibilities: 

Daredevils #9
Daredevils #7
Captain Britain v2 #1
Captain Britain #8

And once we figure this out, what's to stop it from being placed ANYWHERE before comics published in 1983? Is it mentioned how long ago Valerie died in relation to the rest of the issue?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 02, 2008 10:20 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Personally, I don't see any reason it *can't* be a previous scene. It's just Hulk and Thor battling in NYC.

And honestly, I feel that bolting this FB to a previous Hulk/Thor battle is much more preferable to assuming that those two goliaths had another off-panel fight. For one thing, assuming the latter leaves us with basically zero placement clues -- assuming the former at least gives us a fighting chance.

EDIT: Just realized what you were asking. The FB itself is in Captain Britain v2 #1, but it has to *occur*, bare minimum, before The Daredevils #7 (as that's where the newspaper containing the article about Dai's wife's death is first seen).

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 02, 2008 11:42 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Thanks, and was it a recent newspaper?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 03, 2008 2:14 am 
By Enda80

Actually, the fb to the death of Dai Thomas' spouse must occur before Captain Britain I#8, published in December 1976, as that was the first published reference to the death of Dai Thomas' spouse (Kate Fraser mentions that Dai Thomas is a widower who lost his spouse as collateral damage to a metahuman brawl in New York). (I do not have ready access to Vampire Tales#8-9 (December 1974 and February 1975) or Marvel Preview#3 (September 1975), the only previous storyline featuring Dai Thomas, so I cannot say if any reference to him as a widower appeared there.) Later on, as I have noted before, the information was elaborated (in a subtle way by showing us articles of the Guardian) till Captain Britain II#1 depicted a scene showing that both Thor and the Hulk were involved.

So, I decided to use logical elimination to figure out where Thor and the Hulk had met before. Oddly enough, outside of Avengers, they had rarely met in issues published before the 1980's. To wit, in issues published before 1976, they had met in:

Avengers I#1, 2, 3/JIM#112/1, 5, 100, 116, 118
Defenders I#10-11 (Avengers/Defenders x-over)

Some of these issues are easily eliminated as Thor and the Hulk did not encounter each other in New York. So, that would eliminate them as the fb depicted in the death of Dai Thomas' spouse.

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Thanks, and was it a recent newspaper?
<<<

It was a recent newspaper-however, the article was mainly about James Jaspers' call for metahuman regulation. As part of this article, a brief quotation from Dai Thomas was given, and it was noted that years ago his spouse died as collateral from a metahuman battle in New York. This was actually referenced as early as Captain Britain I#8.

			*	*	*

Apr 03, 2008 4:13 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

So... you're asking if this FlashBack takes place during the Avengers/Defenders crossover? Is that it? You say you feel quite sure that it takes place in New York. Are you asking someone to verify? Is that it?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 03, 2008 11:27 am 
By loki

John's making a number of potentially fatal assumptions. I notice that he has now added in the info I pointed out on another group he posted to, that Dai's wife's death was mentioned way before the Thor #255 clash. But one problem with what he is saying is that we don't know for sure who the Hulk was fighting - the silhouette looks like Thor, but we know of other characters who have very similar silhouette's to Thor (Thor Girl, Dargo, Beta Ray Bill, Red Norvell - and while all of these also turned up after her death, the point remains that there are people who can be mistaken for Thor and there could be more we don't know of, so until someone unequivocably identifies Thor as the other combatant, we can't be sure who the Hulk was fighting). Another is the assumption that it is a battle we got to witness - that almost certainly wasn't the original intent. It was meant to be something that happened during a non-specific battle, just a random but horrible piece of collatoral damage that went unnoticed by the actual combatants. Kate Fraser says of the death that it was "Shield vs Hydra or the FF vs the Hulk  I cant remember which". So I think trying to tie it in to a specific issue is just not viable using the information thus far revealed.

			*	*	*

Apr 03, 2008 1:31 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

loki wrote:
>>>
John's making a number of potentially fatal assumptions.  

I notice that he has now added in the info I pointed out on another group he posted to,
<<<

He's been known to do that, too. 


loki wrote:
>>>
...so until someone unequivocably identifies Thor as the other combatant, we can't be sure who the Hulk was fighting
<<<

Fair enough, but given that there's a FlashBack with a silhouette that looks like Thor, taking place at a time before comics published in 1976, it's a pretty safe bet that it is Thor. Not that it's likely we'll ever see it confirmed, though...


loki wrote:
>>>
Another is the assumption that it is a battle we got to witness - that almost certainly wasn't the original intent. It was meant to be something that happened during a non-specific battle, just a random but horrible piece of collatoral damage that went unnoticed by the actual combatants. Kate Fraser says of the death that it was "Shield vs Hydra or the FF vs the Hulk  I cant remember which".
<<<

I'm sure you're right, in that originally we weren't meant to see the battle. But at the very least, there's a one panel Flashback with Hulk(and maybe Thor) that we need to find a place for chronologically. 


loki wrote:
>>>
I think trying to tie it in to a specific issue is just not viable using the information thus far revealed.
<<<

Exactly.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
loki wrote:
>>>
But one problem with what he is saying is that we don't know for sure who the Hulk was fighting - the silhouette looks like Thor, but we know of other characters who have very similar silhouette's to Thor (Thor Girl, Dargo, Beta Ray Bill, Red Norvell - and while all of these also turned up after her death, the point remains that there are people who can be mistaken for Thor and there could be more we don't know of, so until someone unequivocably identifies Thor as the other combatant, we can't be sure who the Hulk was fighting).
<<<

Fair enough, but given that there's a FlashBack with a silhouette that looks like Thor, taking place at a time before comics published in 1976, it's a pretty safe bet that it is Thor. Not that it's likely we'll ever see it confirmed, though...
<<<

On THIS point, IF (and I restress "if", since I haven't seen the panel in question) it's a clear silhouette of Thor, I don't think it's an unwarranted assumption to say "it's Thor". Saying "well, a bunch of other people look like Thor - they came along later, but since they happened you can't say it's Thor" leads to madness - without a dialogue confirmation, and with Skrulls, other shapeshifters, LMDs, that Hulkbot from Eternals that Doom later used, etc, you'd never be able to say a character in a previously-unseen FB is that character.

Even here, and even if the FB was to a later point, none of the other "Thors" have the same silouette - Beta Ray's face & hammer are different, Tarene's a lot smaller and has a wooden mallet rather than a hammer, Red Novell's got a huge hammer... even Dargo, who comes closest to a direct visual clone, doesn't have a full helmet, just a winged headband with spiky hair above.

Barring it turning out to be a tiny, indistinct panel, I think Thor's recognisable enough in silhouette to give it to him.

			*	*	*

Apr 03, 2008 5:23 pm 
By Enda80

"Kate Fraser says of the death that it was "Shield vs Hydra or the FF vs the Hulk  I cant remember which". So I think trying to tie it in to a specific issue is just not viable using the information thus far revealed".

The FF vs. the Hulk? Well, in Fantastic Four I#25-26, the Avengers, including Thor appear, during which the Avengers and the Fantastic Four battle the Hulk. I omitted that storyline from my early list of Hulk/Thor meetings. 

http://www.captaincomics.us/Commander-B ... -1964.html

____________________________________________________________________
Okay, to place in this in a clearer fashion:

The character of Dai Thomas was introduced in Marvel Preview#3, published in 1975, in a Blade story. I have neither access to this storyline nor Vampire Tales#8-9, which it served as a tie-in to.

In 1976, Dai Thomas became a supporting character in the Captain Britain series. In Captain Britain I#8, published in 1976, Thomas' partner Kate Fraser (also earlier introduced in a Blade story, the ones referenced above) reveals that Thomas' spouse died in New York as collateral damage to a metahuman brawl. The brawl took place at some point in the past. 

In Daredevils#7 (published in the UK in 1983), Captain UK picked up a newspaper (a copy of the Guardian, a respected newspaper, though obviously this article never ran in an actual issue) with a story about James Jaspers.

In Daredevils#9 (published in the UK in 1983), we see the same newspaper that Captain UK picked up in #7, and we see a little more of the article; a column revealed that the Hulk and "an unidentified super-villain" in New York were involved in the battle. 

In Captain Britain II#1 (published circa 1985), we see a one-panel fb to the death of Dai Thomas' spouse, and silhouettes resembling Thor and the Hulk can be seen in the background as Thomas and his spouse lie amongst the wreckage.

_______________________________________________________________________________________
Thor and the Hulk had the following encounters published before 1976

Avengers I#1, 2, 3/JIM#112/1, 5, 100, 116, 118
Defenders I#10-11
Fantastic Four I#25-26

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Does anyone know which of these appearances feature both Thor and the Hulk in New York?

			*	*	*

Apr 03, 2008 10:30 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
at the very least, there's a one panel Flashback with Hulk(and maybe Thor) that we need to find a place for chronologically.
<<<

While everyone makes good points, the above quote is the one that resonates most with me. We've got a flashback here. We've got to place it *some*where.

So, we could stay well clear of making any assumptions -- don't assume that it's Thor, don't assume that it's a battle we've seen -- and be safe. But then we're left with almost zero placement clues.

Or, we could actually make some assumptions. It's Thor. We've seen the battle before. That gives us a LOT more to work with, and a far greater chance of placing this somewhere specific rather than somewhere arbitrary.

Might we end up being wrong? Yes. But without any additional clues, how will anyone know that we're wrong? How will it matter?

Sometime in the future, someone might write a story that sheds more light on the scene. If that ever happens, we'll simply reevaluate the placement of the flashback.

But until that happens, or in the likely event that it'll never happen ... I fully advocate making some reasonable assumptions, in order to allow us a fighting chance of placing this scene somewhere that actually makes sense.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 03, 2008 11:19 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
...We've seen the battle before. That gives us a LOT more to work with, and a far greater chance of placing this somewhere specific rather than somewhere arbitrary.
<<<

Really though, anywhere would be arbitrary whether we attach it to something or not. 

I'm not opposed to attaching it to a previously seen battle, but If there's no evidence that it's from a previously seen battle, I don't like making the assumption that two unrelated scenes ARE related if there's no evidence. This, though... 


loki wrote:
>>>
"Kate Fraser says of the death that it was "Shield vs Hydra or the FF vs the Hulk  I cant remember which".
<<<

I was thinking about this at work today, and it might be enough to change my mind in this case. The Avengers/Defenders crossover, as far as I remember, had Hulk & Thor(of course) and SHIELD... something about Contessa turning into a demon and Fury getting his memory wiped. But it's been years since I've read any of that, and I have no idea if any of it takes place in New York. I seem to remember that the Hulk/Thor fight was in Los Angeles, though.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 03, 2008 11:22 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
I don't like making the assumption that two unrelated scenes ARE related if there's no evidence.
<<<

See, I feel the opposite way. I don't like assuming that a great big event like a Hulk/Thor clash in the middle of New York happened solely in one flashback panel and was never referenced again.

When characters refer back to events, we tend to assume that they're referring to events we've seen on-panel. In cases like Alias #14 or 15 (the date-with-Scott-Lang issue), when Spidey and Doc Ock ran by, we tried to attach that to a concurrent battle between them. This sort of thing seems like our standard practice to me, to be honest...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 04, 2008 2:45 am 
By dimadick

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
 I seem to remember that the Hulk/Thor fight was in Los Angeles, though.
<<<

You have a very good memory then. The battle takes place in "Defenders" vol. 1 #10 (November, 1973). For a detailed summary see: http://www.leaderslair.com/defenders/defenders010.html

Long story short: Hulk and Thor fight to a standstill over a section of the Evil Eye. Thor makes the mistake of vocally proclaiming himself Hulk's better, angering a certaim green mortal who feels the need to proove he is "the strongest one there is" for some reason. Lots of collateral damage but not much of a scratch on either combatant. Then Dr. Strange stops the fight, announcing an alliance of the Avengers and the Defenders. Nothing to do with New York City. 

The tale continues in "Avengers" vol. 1 #118 where the two teams fight off an invasion of the Mindless One, while cameos reveal that elsewhere others are trying to stop the invaders. Recognizable are the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, the Inhumans, Luke Cage, Ka-Zar and Zabu, Ghost Rider, Man-Thing, Doctor Doom, Dracula, Adam Warlock and Thanos. The scene where Countess Valentina Allegro de Fontaine transforms into a demon takes place early in the issue. An injured, from a previous battle, Nick Fury takes her down. He isn't supposed to be on his feet but he comments that "he isnt watching the end of the world from bed". (Note:Dr. Strange mind-wipes everyone involved from knowing the identities of Iron Man and Thor), 

Defenders #11 ends the crossover with the two teams parting. Nick Fury is the first to get mind-wiped, forgetting all information relating to the Defenders. Dr. Strange then wippes out any such information from the minds of everyone except from active members of the Avengers and Defenders. 

About earlier encounters. :

*Avengers #116 (October, 1973) actually has the Avengers trying to gain entry into Dr. Strange's residence and failing miserably. The only actual battle of the issue involves Silver Surfer vs. Scarlet Witch and Vision in Rurutu, French Polynesia. No battle in New York City. 
*Avengers #100 (June, 1972) features the greatest gathering of Avengers to that date. Ant-Man, Black Knight, Black Panther, Captain America, Hawkeye, Hercules, Hulk, Iron Man, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Swordsman, Thor, Vision, Wasp vs Ares, Bia, Enchantress, Kratos and a horde sent by Hades. Battles take place in Olympus, Asgard and London. No conflict in New York. 
*Avengers #88 (May, 1971) features both Hulk and Thor in a encounter with Psyklop. But it takes place in an underground cavern in the vicinity of New Orleans. No battles in New York. 
*Journey Into Mystery #112 (January, 1965) adds new scenes to the battle between Hulk and Thor in Avengers #3. Location:Gibraltar. 
*Avengers #5 (May, 1964) has the first conflict between the Avengers and Hulk and the Lava Men. But it takes place near the Gamma Base, somewhere in the Southwestern United States. No New York City.
*Fantastic Four #25-26 (April - May, 1964) has Hulk run amok in New York City with both the Avengers and the Fantastic Four involved. Plenty of opportunity for collateral damage here, he even hijacks a train. 
*Avengers #3 (January, 1964) has the Avengers at first trying to locate the Hulk. He is located by Rick Jones in old stamping grounds, the Southwestern United States.The Avengers track him down in New Mexico. They attempt to capture him but Hulk outwits them, "using every dirty trick in the book" and succesfuly evades them. Hulk next forms an alliance with Namor against the Avengers. The battle takes place on British soil, in Gibraltar. No battles in New York City.
*Avengers #2 (November, 1963) has the Space Phantom manipulating the Avengers into fighting each other, famously ending with Hulk quitting the active roster. The tale starts in "Tony Stark's Mansion", hat would become Avengers Mansion, and all encounters and infighting take place in New York City.
*Avengers #1 (September, 1963) has Loki orchestating a battle between Thor and Hulk, resulting in the formation of the Avengers. The initial battle takes place in a traveling circus, with crowds in attendance. I am not sure where it is supposed to be placed.

			*	*	*

Apr 04, 2008 3:29 am 
By Enda80

Does any of Avengers #118 take place in New York? I know it continued into Defenders I#11. 

Strange's memory tampering could lead to the confused memories, including as to which "unidentified super-villain was".

			*	*	*

Apr 04, 2008 6:07 am 
By Somebody
Director

Based on the above then, especially dimadick's post, let's turn it around... is there any evidence it can NOT fit somewhere in either Avengers v1 #2 (which I'd lean against, partly because that would make it the Space Phantom rather than the Hulk, and partly because the FF have been mentioned, if unreliably) or Fantastic Four v1 #25-26? If not, are there any existing insert stories (which may have been published post-1976, but are set earlier?) that may be useful?

It seems we've gone as far as the evidence can take us, and any further leads to lack of evidence being used as evidence, yes?

			*	*	*

Apr 04, 2008 6:22 pm 
By Enda80

The Space Phantom could of course assume the form of the Hulk. The only nit that comes to mind is that the Hulk seems to be wearing pants in the fb, while Avengers I#2 has him in trunks. 

Was the Hulk in trunks in Avengers I#1.5?

			*	*	*

Apr 04, 2008 8:34 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
The only nit that comes to mind is that the Hulk seems to be wearing pants in the fb, while Avengers I#2 has him in trunks.
<<<


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
the Hulk seems to be wearing pants in the fb, while Avengers I#2 has him in trunks.
<<<


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
the Hulk seems to be wearing pants in the fb
<<<


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
pants in the fb
<<<


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
pants
<<<


-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 04, 2008 10:17 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Well played, sir. 

Well, I picked up Essential Defenders today to refresh my memory. 


dimadick wrote:
>>>
You have a very good memory then.
<<<

Apparently so! It had been ten years since I'd read those issues, and they were borrowed from a buddy at the time. I guess the Hulk/Thor fight attached itself to the Fury bit in my memory files.  

There are parts that happen in New York in the Avengers/Defenders crossover, but none of it involves Hulk or Thor. Their parts are entirely in Los Angeles & the Dark Dimension, there's even dialogue devoted to the fact that Thor & Hulk aren't in New York. So this one's out. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
 Avengers v1 #2 (which I'd lean against, partly because that would make it the Space Phantom rather than the Hulk, and partly because the FF have been mentioned, if unreliably)
<<<

Agreed. 

Avengers 1.5 is out, the action takes place in Latveria. 

Anyone have FF 25 & 26? This seems to be our best bet. Or really, our only bet left.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 04, 2008 10:17 pm 
By SeanCurtin

Ned Flanders wrote:
>>>
feels like I'm wearing nothing at all
<<<


Ned Flanders wrote:
>>>
nothing at all
<<<


Ned Flanders wrote:
>>>
nothing at all
<<<

			*	*	*

Apr 04, 2008 10:46 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Stupid sexy Flanders!

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 04, 2008 11:24 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
Well played, sir.
<<<

Thankyew. 

Okay, I checked out FF #26, and there really isn't a good fit for this scene. It could be dropped in, but not all that believably.

The battle DOES take place in New York, but Thor and the Hulk don't really go toe-to-toe at all. The only time they get physical is inside Avengers Mansion -- the rest of the issue, when the Hulk is outside on the streets, Thor just throws his hammer at him from a distance.

However, I do still kind of like the idea of putting it here, for a few reasons:

1) The FB shows the Hulk and Thor, but Kate Fraser thinks it might have been SHIELD vs. Hydra (clearly not), or the Hulk vs. the FF. Well, we do get some Hulk/FF fightin' in this issue, along with the Hulk/Avengers fightin'.

(It could be argued that Kate doesn't remember who was involved, because several parties were involved.)

2) The FB indicates that the fight kind of crossed paths with Dai and his wife, and moved on. Well, this fight certainly moved on -- beginning at Avengers mansion, rolling out onto the streets, up into a skyscraper and then out to the docks. It didn't stay in one place.

3) The fight needs to be "years " before a comic published in 1976. Even given the slow nature of Marvel time, this is definitely "years ago".

And of course, just because we didn't see the Hulk and Thor actually fighting in the street, didn't mean it didn't happen between panels...

The on-street portion of the fight goes like this: The Hulk grabs Rick Jones, busts out of Avengers Mansion, drops Rick once the Wasp starts buzzing in his ear, battles the Avengers in the streets, grabs Rick again and jumps off to the skyscraper. We'd have to place this FB during a period where he's not holding Rick.

Here's that three-page sequence: p.12 p.13 p.14

I suggest between panels 4-5 of p.13. The building that fell on top of Dai's wife could be the one that the Hulk takes a huge swipe out of at the bottom of p.12...

Alternate suggestions are very welcome. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 05, 2008 1:59 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

So after Mr. Fantastic & Iron Man get tangled, Thor fights the Hulk, then the Hulk comments that there are 'too many of them.' I can live with that.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jun 16, 2008 6:32 am 
By xenocrates

I say its two Skrull shape-shifters trying to give our heroes a PR black-eye, but hey that's just me.


/I'm new here.
//Trying to organize my Hulk collection.
///I don't include FBs in my chronology, for sake of simplicity.

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Subject: Correction for "Blackbyrd"

May 02, 2008 4:47 pm 
By tlynch

Hi all,

Long-time user, first-time poster. I discovered the Chronology Project a ways back and am enjoying it tremendously -- I have fond memories of the old "Official Marvel Index" chronologies and am glad to see someone's carrying it on!

That said, naturally, I've got a correction.  

Detective Nathaniel Byrd ("Blackbyrd") is listed in lots of issues of Deadly Hands of Kung Fu, which I assume is accurate -- but he's also in issues 9 and 10 of the original run of Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man. I don't know if he appears anywhere after that, but he's definitely in those -- it was a Bill Mantlo fill-in with the first color appearance of the White Tiger.

Thanks to all,
Tim Lynch

			*	*	*

May 02, 2008 7:28 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Hi, Tim. Good to have you posting, and I'm glad you're enjoying the site.  

I don't have PPSS 9 but I can confirm that Blackbyrd is in PPTSS 10. No idea how this synchs up with DHKF, though. Perhaps someone else could shed light there. Thanks for notifying us.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

May 03, 2008 12:58 am 
By Arthur
Director

And I can confirm PPTSS 9.

The White Tiger's listing shows PPTSS 9 following DHKF 32/2, so going by that...

BYRD, NATHANIEL ALEXANDER "BLACKBYRD" 
. . .
DHKF 32/2
**PPTSS 9
**PPTSS 10

			*	*	*

Jun 18, 2008 3:51 pm 
By tlynch

Thanks for confirming the previous corrections on Blackbyrd, folks. Now I've got more: he also appears in the first two parts of the White Tiger story backing up issues of PPTSSM, so he'd be in PPTSSM 49/2 and PPTSSM 50/2. In terms of what's currently posted here, those would be his final two appearances.

TWL

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Subject: Rupert Dockery additions

Hi all,

The current listing for Rupert Dockery reads 

S-W 26
S-W 27
S-W 28
S-W 29
S-W 30
ASM 208

He also appears in ASM 209 and 210, with a major role as the villain of 210. At the end of said issue he's hauled off to prison, so I would imagine that's his final appearance.

TWL

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Subject: Dr Strange Chronology question?

Jun 19, 2008 1:40 am 
By Giant Ant

Hello
Dr Strange appears (at least BTS) in back-up stories in Dr Strange vol.3 (Sorcerer Supreme) # 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 20, 21, 22, 23, 26, 27, 31, 32 and 33.

Only his appearance in #16/2 seems to have been chronologized so far.

Anybody has any idea where the other back-up stories would fit chronologically?

Thank you very much

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Subject: Fantastic Four #557

Jun 21, 2008 12:24 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

In the latest instance of "marking of the passage of time", in the latest Fantastic Four issue, Reed and Sue travel back in time "13 years ago", to when they first met in their adult lives, (Pre-FF#1). So if this is to be believed, it's been less than 13 years since FF #1. I'm not buying it.

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Jun 21, 2008 8:58 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Kevin wrote:
>>>
So if this is to be believed, it's been less than 13 years since FF #1. I'm not buying it.
<<<

Actually, less than 13 years after FF 1, since Reed and Sue had known one another as adults for a while by that time. I recall rolling my eyes and whistling when I read that. Then again, how old is Franklin now? 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Subject: X-Factor #32 [SPOILERS]

Jun 19, 2008 1:28 pm 
By Somebody
Director

So, Five Month Gap, then (during which Siryn goes from not-visibly-pregnant to VERY visibly pregnant). Between Messiah CompleX and Secret Invasion.

It appears to work for She-Hulk (about to crossover with it) - because that in itself had a big jump before PAD's first issue - but, Paul, is this leading to a thumbs-up or a fit of crying from you?

			*	*	*

Jun 21, 2008 8:51 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

If the last part is supposed to occur before Secret Invasion, then it's a fit of crying.  

Just how long did Stark sit around before doing anything about the Skrulls?

Year 24 is really squishy right now. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jun 21, 2008 9:24 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Did I mention that the impregnation itself was almost certainly before XF3 13, which you currently have as the 3rd of December, YR23; while XF3 24 (the last issue on the current calendar) is listed as the 18th of May, YR24? Five months after that (ignoring MCX in the middle) gives at least a ten-and-a-half month pregnancy - and counting 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
If the last part is supposed to occur before Secret Invasion, then it's a fit of crying.  
<<<

Well, next issue's the start of the SI tie-in...


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Just how long did Stark sit around before doing anything about the Skrulls?
<<<

Put it this way - I'd be looking to see if Xavier can appear in NA:I2 #5 in his X-Men Legacy status-quo right now...


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Year 24 is really squishy right now. 
<<<

Hey, I'm desperately trying to reconcile a "nearly a month", a "[less than] three weeks", a "the worst weeks of my life" and a passage of time in Nova which, by rights, should be around a week for the length of Conquest right now 

			*	*	*

Jun 22, 2008 1:45 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Did I mention that the impregnation itself was almost certainly before XF3 13, which you currently have as the 3rd of December, YR23; while XF3 24 (the last issue on the current calendar) is listed as the 18th of May, YR24? Five months after that (ignoring MCX in the middle) gives at least a ten-and-a-half month pregnancy - and counting 
<<<

You didn't, but I thought about this already and have been willing to ascribe the pregnancy to a second liaison. Hey, hormones...what can I say?


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Hey, I'm desperately trying to reconcile a "nearly a month", a "[less than] three weeks", a "the worst weeks of my life" and a passage of time in Nova which, by rights, should be around a week for the length of Conquest right now 
<<<

On a larger scale, I've got the "100 days" without a Spidey prior to ASM 546-548, the dividing line that ASM 548 draws between Daily Bugle appearances (before) and DB appearances (after)*, and the "two months" between pages 15 and 16 of CM6 5.

Daily Bugle (pre-ASM 546) in:
CM6 2 (1-3)
MSM2 18 (9-22)
NW4 10
TWELVE 5 (1-8)

DB (post-ASM 548) in:
A/INV 1 (10-20)
X:DWS 2/5 (1-2)
CA5 39 (13-22)
MSM2 25 [Jonah's heart attack noted]

Considering everything, including Messiah Complex, One More Day, and Secret Invasion, things are not lining up as neatly as I'd like. The Calendar is likely to remain in heavy flux for the rest of this year, until Secret Invasion is over. I'm drawing and redrawing chronological diagrams and laying temporal references over them -- not pretty.Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jun 22, 2008 2:10 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
Did I mention that the impregnation itself was almost certainly before XF3 13, which you currently have as the 3rd of December, YR23; while XF3 24 (the last issue on the current calendar) is listed as the 18th of May, YR24? Five months after that (ignoring MCX in the middle) gives at least a ten-and-a-half month pregnancy - and counting 
<<<

You didn't, but I thought about this already and have been willing to ascribe the pregnancy to a second liaison. Hey, hormones...what can I say?
<<<

Oh, there were multiple congresses - Jamie's clear about that in his talk with Samson (otherwise I would have said #10 rather than #13). However, they stopped when he broke it to M & Siryn that he'd been sleeping with both of them, and both of them stopped talking to him, as shown in XF3 14. And then, Jamie goes off on his voyage of self-recovery, and M & T go to France. Then they get plunged into the X-Cell thing as soon as they get back, and it's not until #19 that Jamie manages to establish that the two are even talking to him. And that's the issue the pregnancy test is discovered.

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Subject: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Feb 03, 2008 11:30 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Bendis strikes again. After screwing around with chronology for the entirety of the Mighty Avengers run and the post-CW New Avengers, he has administered the coup de gras with New Avengers Annual #2. This is just royally messed up.

Bendis provides strong evidence that NA@ 2 occurs after World War Hulk. The references to Strange's hands being damaged in WWH and his inability to help Banner, along with the whole black magic plotline support a placement after WWH. Not only that, but NA@ 2 ends with a new status quo for Strange and the Sanctum Sanctorum which forces placement after not only WWH, but also the appearances of Strange and the boarded up Starbucks Sanctum seen in W3 58 and NX 41 (which occurs shortly before Messiah Complex). And it has to occur long enough after WWH for Avengers Tower to be rebuilt, complete with Watchtower spires! Hrmmm.

Two major problems:

1) In the midst of One More Day, in FNSM 24, Spider-Man (back in classic costume) visits the boarded-up Starbucks Sanctum and asks Strange for help. One More Day must occur after NA@ 2, in which Spidey appears in his black costume and without his mask. So what on earth is happening here??

2) NA@ 2 is part of a multi-faceted crossover story that covers MA 1-9 and A4 27-37 -- a story in which the Mighty Avengers are supposed to have just formed. But this whole story can't occur after WWH, because the Mighty Avengers were already formed before WWH and had appeared in such stories as Fallen Son.

My first inclination is to place a gap between pages 18 and 19 of A4 37 and say that it took months for the Hood to spring his incarcerated comrades from the Raft after they were captured. We'd have to come up with a good excuse for the long delay, but I suppose it's doable. This would mean that the Avengers' invasion of Latveria coming in MA 9 would occur long before NA@ 2.

Suggestions?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Feb 03, 2008 11:35 am 
By JD

I started a similar thread just after you, so I'm posting my first thoughts here :

It conflicts a bit with our earlier deductions :
- It continues straight from A4 37 (with the Hood breaking out his sidekicks).
- Dr Strange leaves the New Avengers and goes into seclusion, so it should be after NA:I2 5.
- It's post-WWH, as Dr Strange suffers from the aftereffects of the demon/whatever he invoked back then.
- It's pre-OMD, as Spider-Man is still in his black costume.
- But wait ! There may be a break between pages 4 & 5 : the Hood needs some time to recruit his new army of villains, and on page 5 the New Avengers come back from a battle they won ("for once"), with Echo injured. I'm not sure it's A4 37, because Echo wasn't injured there : maybe it's a slot for WWH & NA:I2 5 to happen ? Or maybe it should fit earlier in the storyline...

(Scanning through WWH quickly again, it seems that it wasn't stated there whether Spider-Woman was registered. Which is fortunate, since she definitely should be by then in my understanding.)

			*	*	*

Feb 03, 2008 12:24 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Well, personally I'm still on the "ignore that MA #1-6 is supposed to occur mere minutes after the team was formed" bandwagon. Create a nice big gap in MA #1 and shovel the Mighty team's appearances in Fallen Son, World War Hulk and New Avengers into it.

"Pull a Cable", as it were. 

As for the One More Day conundrum ... well, maybe the "reset" of reality that Mephisto pulled put Peter briefly *back* into his black outfit? Right now his chronology goes:

Back in Black - black costume
OMD - classic costume
BND - hasn't been seen in a long time, finally reappears in classic costume

Maybe during that period of time where Spidey "hasn't been seen", we could say that he was still serving on the New Avengers, but doing so in his black outfit to keep a lower profile? Then he returned to his classic duds when he decided to make his public return in BND?

It's lame, I know, but it would allow NA@2 to occur after OMD...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Feb 03, 2008 3:13 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph wrote:
>>>
As for the One More Day conundrum ... well, maybe the "reset" of reality that Mephisto pulled put Peter briefly *back* into his black outfit? Right now his chronology goes:
Back in Black - black costume
OMD - classic costume
BND - hasn't been seen in a long time, finally reappears in classic costume
Maybe during that period of time where Spidey "hasn't been seen", we could say that he was still serving on the New Avengers, but doing so in his black outfit to keep a lower profile? Then he returned to his classic duds when he decided to make his public return in BND?
<<<

That...doesn't work. Spidey is shown without his mask on in NA@ 2, so it must be before One More Day, or at least before the conclusion of One More Day. Maybe we need to insert a gap between the time Spidey leaves the Sanctum in FNSM 24 and his encounter with the Mephisto-sent daughter-that-could've-been in that same issue. In that gap, we'd have to wedge NA@ 2, with Spidey returning to his black costume and interrupting his desperate quest for a cure for May. Not a great solution by any means, but probably better than restoring the Sanctum and returning Strange to it after NA@ 2. I have a feeling Strange's self-imposed exile will factor into Secret Invasion.


Jeph wrote:
>>>
Well, personally I'm still on the "ignore that MA #1-6 is supposed to occur mere minutes after the team was formed" bandwagon. Create a nice big gap in MA #1 and shovel the Mighty team's appearances in Fallen Son, World War Hulk and New Avengers into it.
<<<

Yes, there still needs to be a gap between the formation of the Mighty Avengers and the Ultron battle, but that still doesn't help us with the latest NA@ 2 mess-up. There needs to be a gap between the Ultron battle/Skrull discovery/Symbiote attack and NA@ 2, with World War Hulk and a number of post-WWH events occurring in the gap. If nothing else, Irredeemable Ant-Man establishes the fact that the Ultron battle occurs before WWH -- IAM crosses over with the Ultron battle in issue #7 and with WWH in issue #10.


JD wrote:
>>>
But wait ! There may be a break between pages 4 & 5 : the Hood needs some time to recruit his new army of villains, and on page 5 the New Avengers come back from a battle they won ("for once"), with Echo injured. I'm not sure it's A4 37, because Echo wasn't injured there : maybe it's a slot for WWH & NA:I2 5 to happen ? Or maybe it should fit earlier in the storyline...
<<<

Well, the Hood has already recruited his army before this, and it seems unlikely for him to hold off on an attack once he discovers where the New Avengers are. It may be better to insert the gap between the arrest of the Wrecking Crew et al and their escape from the Raft. It may have taken that long for the Hood to figure out where the captured villains were. SHIELD may have sent them to Prison 42 first before transferring them to the Raft for questioning. (Could the Hood teleport to the Negative Zone?) They could have sat in stir for a while before Hood found them.

And yes, the gap must include not only WWH and the Aftersmash, but also NA:I2 5, NX 41, and W3 58-59, as Strange appears in those issues. The gap likely is a large one. This is not very desirable for a number of reasons, including the whole delay in dealing with the Skrull invasion that it involves (and about which we've discussed)...but Bendis leaves us with little choice.

One last point: I think the battle from which the New Avengers return on page 5 -- the one in which Echo's arm was injured -- is probably some adventure we haven't seen (yet). I agree it can't be the battle from A4 37.

Man, just how many plot points have we been forced to ignore or explain away with contrived BTS theories in the post-CW Avengers' world? Is continuity really this hard for Bendis or the editorial staff?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Feb 03, 2008 5:32 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
Spidey is shown without his mask on in NA@ 2
<<<

Oh, right, NOBODY knows who he is anymore -- not even the Avengers. Bah.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Feb 03, 2008 6:20 pm 
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
 (Could the Hood teleport to the Negative Zone?) 
<<<

IIRC, the Hood can't teleport : he can just become invisible and fly around a bit.

			*	*	*

Feb 03, 2008 6:35 pm 
By milamber

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Yes, there still needs to be a gap between the formation of the Mighty Avengers and the Ultron battle, but that still doesn't help us with the latest NA@ 2 mess-up. There needs to be a gap between the Ultron battle/Skrull discovery/Symbiote attack and NA@ 2, with World War Hulk and a number of post-WWH events occurring in the gap. If nothing else, Irredeemable Ant-Man establishes the fact that the Ultron battle occurs before WWH -- IAM crosses over with the Ultron battle in issue #7 and with WWH in issue #10.
<<<

I liked the idea that WWH fits in the gap in between the formation of the MA and the battle with Ultron (a gap which has to be waay longer than a few minutes) , or perhaps even between CW and the formation of the Mighty Avengers.
I have been re-readng my WWH comics, and I haven't found a single reference to the Mighty Avengers existing as a team during the war.
I also do not follow IAM. Is there any way IAM #7 can be linked to other battle instead of the Ultron from the MA one?

			*	*	*

Feb 03, 2008 6:55 pm 
By Somebody
Director

milamber wrote:
>>>
I also do not follow IAM. Is there any way IAM #7 can be linked to other battle instead of the Ultron from the MA one?
<<<

He enters the arena clinging to Warbird's sash. And they actually repeat pages and dialogue from MA 1.

So, no.

PS: Weren't there preview pages released from Bachalo's BND issues involving the New Avengers, in the Sanctum, with Strange front & center?

			*	*	*

Feb 03, 2008 7:02 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Weren't there preview pages released from Bachalo's BND issues involving the New Avengers, in the Sanctum, with Strange front & center?
<<<

I don't recall if they were in the Sanctum, but yes. Spider-Man is still with the New Avengers post-OMD, in his classic costume, and Strange & Wolverine were both in those pages. 

With all of the weather this week, I wasn't able to make it to the shop to get this week's books. Once I get my hands on a copy of this annual I'll see if I can chip in my two cents.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Feb 03, 2008 7:22 pm 
By Marvologist

Don't forget we also need to fit SILENT WAR into the gap after the Mighty Avengers formation, which we know was the month before World War Hulk (SILENT WAR, that is), though not necessarily the same as one month before. And World War Hulk gives us a reason for why the Hood's attack was delayed by a couple of weeks minimum to three weeks that would also fit in the current Dr. Doom story in MIGHTY AVENGERS, The Death of a Dream Act I in CAPTAIN AMERICA (where I place the break in the current Captain America storyline for the rest of the events in my list to fall before Tony Stark is seen on the news discussing the recent formation of the Mighty Avengers (I can't recall the issue number offhand, but I'll check later; this is also based on Ed Brubaker's response to being asked about World War Hulk specifically on Newsarama where he said there are several breaks in time during the Death of a Dream storyline to fit other events), SILENT WAR, WORLD WAR HULK, SUB-MARINER, ILLUMINATI v2 5, then NEW AVENGERS ANNUAL 2. 

So yes, that does leave the current Mighty Avengers story far behind until I guess it catches up by April for SECRET INVASION.

But none of this helps One More Day. I think we need one more day from Dr. Strange to be around because after Strange said he couldn't help him a dejected Spider-Man went to sit outside and then saw his potential daughter. Was that not right outside Dr. Strange's house? Or am I misremembering things?

That Wolverine story is problematic. Do we ignore the statement by Dr. Strange that Wolverine was dead, or brain dead, for close to two months?

I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Feb 03, 2008 7:45 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I totally missed that when I reviewed those Wolverine issues. But there it is in 58, Dr. Strange tells Wolverine in the astral plane that it's been about a month since he ate a bomb last issue. And here I put those two issues on the same day...

Good catch, Marvologist!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Feb 03, 2008 7:52 pm 
By Somebody
Director

There's no way that can stand, surely - it's frakking WOLVERINE, the guest-appearance whore of the MU (And didn't the fill-in issue immediately before the "Logan dies" arc also incapacitate Wolverine for an extended period of time?) A week maybe - some seriously abnormal-but-not-that-long period of time.

And Jeph - Ant-Man #7 also includes dialogue to the effect that it's the Mighty Avs' first "formal meeting". I can buy that their appearance in post-CW New Avs which absolutely must take place before is black, anti-leak, off-the-books stuff that the SHIELD agent Danvers is talking to might not be cleared to know - but trying to shove their public appearances in Silent War & WWH in there is really pushing it.

			*	*	*

Feb 04, 2008 8:06 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
I don't recall if they were in the Sanctum, but yes. Spider-Man is still with the New Avengers post-OMD, in his classic costume, and Strange & Wolverine were both in those pages. 
<<<

If we're suggesting that NA@ 2 occurs after OMD, then I guess Peter's identity gets revealed again when he carelessly removes the mask of the black costume he shouldn't be wearing in NA@ 2. Ugh.  


Col Fury wrote:
>>>
I totaly missed that when I reviewed those Wolverine issues. But there it is in 58, Dr. Strange tells Wolverine in the astral plane that it's been about a month since he ate a bomb last issue
<<<

Maybe it's a month in the astral plane?? Those huge passages of time in W3 are just not going to work. "Pulling a Cable" may be necessary here when all is said and done.  




Any clue about the placement of NA@ 2 relative to Messiah Complex?Paul B.

			*	*	*

Feb 04, 2008 8:09 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
it's frakking WOLVERINE, the guest-appearance whore of the MU 
<<<

No, these days that would be Tony Stark.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Feb 04, 2008 8:55 am 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
If we're suggesting that NA@ 2 occurs after OMD, then I guess Peter's identity gets revealed again when he carelessly removes the mask of the black costume he shouldn't be wearing in NA@ 2. Ugh.  
<<<

I think that if the black costume is an error, the mask coming off must also be an error. Negate one, negate both.

Of course, not that Spider-Man IV being on the Skrull-paranoid New Avengers makes sense if he's not even prepared to give them his ID...


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
it's frakking WOLVERINE, the guest-appearance whore of the MU 
<<<

No, these days that would be Tony Stark.
<<<

Okay, the second-greatest whore then 

			*	*	*

Feb 04, 2008 12:14 pm 
By WayneLW

I hesitate to jump into the middle of the chronologist Titans here, but here's something that I noticed  having just read both New Avengers Annual # 2 and New Avengers: Illuminati # 5, in the latter, when Strange arrives, Iron Man greets him by saying, "I didn't think YOU'D show up," with "you'd" in bold, implying that he wasn't expecting to see Strange. Now, of course, this probably refers to the fact that Strange is a member of the New Avengers and thus a fugitive from the Pro-Registration authorities

Later, however, during the battle, Strange says, "My powers aren't what they--" which seems to be a reference to his powers being unstable due to his use of black Magic during WWH, which NA:I comes after, referring to it within the issue itself. All of these things taken together, it seems possible to me that the reason that both Iron Man and Strange say the things that they do is that NA:I comes after the New Avengers Annual # 2, and that Iron Man is surprised to see Strange because Iron Man expects Strange to be in self-imposed isolation, not merely avoiding the authorities because Strange is a fugitive, and Strange's is commenting on his powers being unable as a result of WWH is an ongoing condition from both WWH and NA Annual # 2. (This is the first time I've done this; I hope that I'm being clear.)

Is this possible, and would it make chronologies easier?

			*	*	*

Feb 04, 2008 6:51 pm 
By Jason Doty

I'm of the opinion that One More Day and the Wolverine dies arc come after the current arc in New Avengers and World War Hulk comes between pages 4 and 5 of New Avengers Annual 2.

			*	*	*

Feb 04, 2008 10:37 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

WayneLW wrote:
>>>
(This is the first time I've done this; I hope that I'm being clear.)
<<<

Welcome to the forum, WayneLW. Yup, you're clear. You're saying that it's possible for Strange to appear in NA:I2 5 after NA@ 2 and dialogue in NA:I2 5 can be used to support this theory.


WayneLW wrote:
>>>
Is this possible, and would it make chronologies easier?
<<<

I can't think of anything that makes this impossible, at least not yet. But it would mean that both NA@2 and NA:I2 5 would need to occur in a gap we'd need to open between Strange's and Spidey's appearance in NX 41 and Xavier's fate in Messiah Complex. It doesn't necessarily make the chronologies easier.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Feb 05, 2008 7:10 am 
By Somebody
Director

I've now read NA@ 2, and something leapt out at me - Strange's condition isn't a legacy of Zom, it's a legacy of the many things he's been doing on an ongoing basis since WWH to cover up the aftereffects of Hulk breaking his hands. i.e., it supports that it's been a probably-extended period since WWH.

			*	*	*

Feb 05, 2008 8:02 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Somebody wrote:
>>>
I've now read NA@ 2, and something leapt out at me - Strange's condition isn't a legacy of Zom, it's a legacy of the many things he's been doing on an ongoing basis since WWH to cover up the aftereffects of Hulk breaking his hands. i.e., it supports that it's been a probably-extended period since WWH.
<<<

Yes, that's correct.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Feb 05, 2008 1:15 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Ive read the issue, and heres what Im thinking.

Pg5-onwards establishes that time has passed from the perspective of the New Avengers. Theyre returning from an unseen battle, and Strange mentions the events of WWH as happening in the past. Right there places WWH between A4 37 & the Annual. 

However, the Annual picks up directly from the end of A4 37, from the perspective of the villains. But hey, so what? 

Heres my suggestion: 

Splice as much time as we need between A4 37 (1-18) & A4 37 (19-22) to get us relatively close to WWH. Annual 2 (1-2) occurs fifteen minutes after A4 37 (19-22). Splice some more time, but not too much, between Annual 2 (1-2) & Annual 2 (3-4), and then BANG! The Hulk attacks. Everyone is sidetracked, WWH happens, and then any other post-WWH New Avengers guest appearances can occur,(W3 58, NX 41, etc) including the unseen fight referenced on pg5-onward in Annual 2.(Im sure this will require us to ignore some temporal references in W3 56 & W3 58) 

But, what are the villains doing in the meantime? Well, the Hoods been preaching about getting smart about crime, so I figure theyre doing some jobs and getting the word out until he felt it was the right time to get revenge. Its just unlucky on his part that he decided the right time was when the Hulk was in orbit

After WWH for the villains, theyre getting their act back together, because they have to wait until everyone comes back to the city to do anything anyway. Theres no one to steal from in an evacuated city, right? After everythings back under control, they pick the plan back up and attack where they know the New Avengers are hiding out. 

That gets us to the end of the Annual, where Dr. Strange kicks the New Avengers out of his house. Now see, I was confused a bit in OMD when Spider-Man came to Dr. Strange in the way he did. If he had an open invitation to the Sanctum, why did he have to enter the way he did? Well, now we know. He was kicked out.  What Im saying is: Annual 2 is pre-OMD. This also necessitates W3 57-61 to be pre-Annual 2)

Also, I agree with WayneLW that Annual 2 is pre-NA: I2 5. And of course, NA: I2 5 has to be pre-Messiah CompleX. 

So Im thinking of something like this: 

A4 37 (1-18)

Silent War begins

A4 37 (19-22)
A@2 2 (1-2)

A@2 2 (3-4)
WWH
Silent War ends

W3 57-61
NX 41
A@2 2 (5-36)

NA: I2 5
Messiah CompleX
OMD

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Feb 05, 2008 2:24 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
That gets us to the end of the Annual, where Dr. Strange kicks the New Avengers out of his house. Now see, I was confused a bit in OMD when Spider-Man came to Dr. Strange in the way he did. If he had an open invitation to the Sanctum, why did he have to enter the way he did? Well, now we know. He was kicked out.  What Im saying is: Annual 2 is pre-OMD. This also necessitates W3 57-61 to be pre-Annual 2)

Also, I agree with WayneLW that Annual 2 is pre-NA: I2 5. And of course, NA: I2 5 has to be pre-Messiah CompleX. 
<<<

From Whacker here: "Beyond that, theres plenty of Spidey in the Avengers (who also appear in Amazing during month four)" - and here's a preview page from BND M4: http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Spid ... 07_col.jpg

And Strange DOESN'T chuck the NAvs out. HE teleports AWAY, leaving Danvers to find them (including Wong & Night Nurse) in the ruins of "the Strange house".

And in NA:I2 #5, Iron Man asks Strange "How are they? Your Avengers?" And Strange replies "As well as to be expected." And a few pages later "No-one in my group trusts you [IM]." All present-tense. The references Wayne picked up on may well be in reference to Strange's problems which climax in NA@ #2, but from my reading of the issue they have to be before he loses it in the Annual and is forced to go into isolation.

			*	*	*

Feb 05, 2008 2:41 pm 
By cweed4

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
That...doesn't work. Spidey is shown without his mask on in NA@ 2, so it must be before One More Day, or at least before the conclusion of One More Day. Maybe we need to insert a gap between the time Spidey leaves the Sanctum in FNSM 24 and his encounter with the Mephisto-sent daughter-that-could've-been in that same issue. In that gap, we'd have to wedge NA@ 2, with Spidey returning to his black costume and interrupting his desperate quest for a cure for May. Not a great solution by any means, but probably better than restoring the Sanctum and returning Strange to it after NA@ 2. I have a feeling Strange's self-imposed exile will factor into Secret Invasion.
<<<

Keep in mind that there is a months long gap between OMD and BND for Spidey. Mephisto breaks up Pete&MJ and restores his secret ID during that time period. When, and if, Marvel ever decides to reveal the events that show how Mephisto accomplished those 2 things will help clarify some of these chronologies. Given that Pete and MJ appear to have just broken up in the ASM 545 epilogue there is no reason to assume the other big retcon (restoring his secret ID) happened right away after the Mephisto deal.

Here is a possible chronology for Spidey:
-Civil War ends
-May gets shot
-Back in Black
-OMD  
-magic reset: marriage is forgotten, May recovers, Spidey reverts to black costume
-NA 27 through 36
-WWH
-NA@ 2
-Mephisting: secret ID restored, Pete&MJ break up, Spidey back to classic costume
-BND


*edited to place WWH

Last edited by cweed4 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

			*	*	*

Feb 05, 2008 2:50 pm 
By Somebody
Director

[NB: I edited my post above to include my reading of NA:I2 5 while cweed was posting]


cweed4 wrote:
>>>
Keep in mind that there is a months long gap between OMD and BND for Spidey. Mephisto breaks up Pete&MJ and restores his secret ID during that time period. When, and if, Marvel ever decides to reveal the events that show how Mephisto accomplished those 2 things will help clarify some of these chronologies. Given that Pete and MJ appear to have just broken up in the ASM 545 epilogue there is no reason to assume the other big retcon (restoring his secret ID) happened right away after the Mephisto deal.

Here is a possible chronology for Spidey:
-Civil War ends
-May gets shot
-Back in Black
-OMD  
-magic reset: marriage is forgotten, May recovers, Spidey reverts to black costume
-NA 27 through NA@ 2
-Mephisting: secret ID restored, Pete&MJ break up, Spidey back to classic costume
-BND
<<<

Here's the thing - BND-Spider-Man is meant to be wearing his costume in BND for the first time since CW, ja? i.e., be it a reality shift or a mere mindwipe with changes to records, etc to maintain the consistancy, it took no time after OMD for the changes to happen, whatever the characters remember - there's not a gap in the last OMD issue for the stuff you mention to happen any more than there was months between HoM 7 & 8 for the Scarlet Witch to go and wipe all the mutants' powers one at a time.

On an absolute chronology, assuming mindwipe rather than reality shift, Mephisto just teleported Peter to wake up in Aunt May's restored house one minute later. If "events" happened to restore his secret ID in his memory, they're just as false as his memories of raising a kid for five years in HoM were.

			*	*	*

Feb 05, 2008 3:55 pm 
By cweed4

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Here's the thing - BND-Spider-Man is meant to be wearing his costume in BND for the first time since CW, ja? i.e., be it a reality shift or a mere mindwipe with changes to records, etc to maintain the consistancy, it took no time after OMD for the changes to happen, whatever the characters remember - there's not a gap in the last OMD issue for the stuff you mention to happen any more than there was months between HoM 7 & 8 for the Scarlet Witch to go and wipe all the mutants' powers one at a time.

On an absolute chronology, assuming mindwipe rather than reality shift, Mephisto just teleported Peter to wake up in Aunt May's restored house one minute later. If "events" happened to restore his secret ID in his memory, they're just as false as his memories of raising a kid for five years in HoM were.
<<<

I disagree. According to the ASM 546 preview Spidey hasn't been spotted in 100 days. So, there is definitely an extended time gap between OMD and the start of BND in the epilogue of ASM 545. This was acknowledged by Quesada in a CBR interview for fan questions-

>>>
"After reading the 'One More Day' interviews, this was my understanding of events: all those stories from the past twenty years still happened, except Peter and MJ were only a couple, and not married; and 'Brand New Day' begins, Marvel-time, some time after the events of 'One More Day,' which would explain why Pete and MJ are broken up, Harry's back, Aunt May's house is rebuilt, and now Pete knows all these new people, because theoretically all those events take place in the time between 'One More Day' and 'Brand New Day.' Makes sense...'"
JoeQ: Sergio, youre correct, there is some missing time, its obvious some time has gone by as you keenly noticed, MJ and Peter have broken up. When did it happen, how long have they been broken up, these are stories yet to be told.
<<<

Here is the full Q&A- http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=12395

Regarding the classic costume in BND, since I haven't read it, is it the first time Peter thinks he has been in that outfit since CW or the first time he's been seen in the costume since CW? Either way, very few people saw him back in the classic costume during OMD and the Mephisto magic could easily explain away nobody knowing about its brief return.

			*	*	*

Feb 05, 2008 4:22 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Yes, but I'm saying that the "missing time"/"100 days" cover Back in Black & OMD. [Read only the answers - and note how JQ said in pt 2:

Joephisto wrote:
>>>
Peter toasts, but he's the only one with an empty glass, which to me is as it should be. He's lost a lot, while he doesn't know it and remembers nothing, his world right at this point is certainly a lot emptier.
<<<

People don't remember seeing Spidey for that long because him being on the run, beating up the Kingpin, going after Mr Hyde, feeding Ms Arrow to a bunch of birds, etc "unhappened" - either literally or because their effects were undone & memories/records deleted.

The time jump is purely illusionary, and any Spider-Man flashbacks to before the end of ASM545 reflecting what people think happened in their post-OMD memories are false.

			*	*	*

Feb 05, 2008 5:36 pm 
By Mikhail

The Hood has also been appeared in Daredevil, presumably pre-NA Annual #2. Have there been any references to WWH or other current events in DD? I don't recall any, but I thought I'd throw that into the chronology for analysis.

			*	*	*

Feb 05, 2008 10:52 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
But, what are the villains doing in the meantime? Well, the Hoods been preaching about getting smart about crime, so I figure theyre doing some jobs and getting the word out until he felt it was the right time to get revenge. 
<<<

I can't see a big gap happening between the Hood forcing Tigra to reveal the New Avengers' whereabouts and the Hood's attack on said whereabouts. Why would Tigra take so long to act? How would she happen to time a visit to the Sanctum long after her betrayal right at the point Hood finally decided to attack? To me, this all makes sense only if Hood acted quickly on his intel and Tigra immediately went to warn her friends.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
And in NA:I2 #5, Iron Man asks Strange "How are they? Your Avengers?" And Strange replies "As well as to be expected." And a few pages later "No-one in my group trusts you [IM]." All present-tense. The references Wayne picked up on may well be in reference to Strange's problems which climax in NA@ #2, but from my reading of the issue they have to be before he loses it in the Annual and is forced to go into isolation.
<<<

Good point. Given this, I think it makes sense for NA:I2 5 to occur before NA@ 2. Given what we know so far, Strange's last chronological appearance would have to be NA@ 2. If we insert gaps properly, this doesn't appear to be a problem except for FNSM 24 (One More Day).

Citing a creator interview concerning the gap of time after May is saved, cweed4 asserts that FNSM 24, too, occurs prior to NA@ 2 with the following chronological sequence of events making this possible:

All of One More Day except the epilog in ASM 545;
Mephisto saves May and the marriage is forgotten;
Spidey resumes wearing the black costume;
[*see below];
Spidey has an unpublished adventure with his fellow Avengers in which Echo injures her arm;
He appears sans mask in NA@ 2 (which is say continues directly from pages 19-22 of A4 37), in which the Sanctum is destroyed and Strange goes away;
Mephisto performs part two of his deal (perhaps the whispered M.J. addendum), erasing everyone's memory of Spidey's ID;
Peter Parker breaks up with MJ and resumes a normal life -- no Spidey activity for three months;
MJ becomes Jackpot (another part of her Mephisto deal??) and becomes an Initiative star;
Spidey finally makes a brief appearance in classic costume in Swing Shift, in which Jackpot appears;
The epilog of ASM 545 occurs;
Brand New Day occurs

Our "sneak peak" into the future beyond this shows a classic-garbed Spidey and Logan with Strange in a boarded-up Sanctum. So...Strange returns, the Sanctum gets restored (and is left alone by Stark's folks), the Starbucks spell is redone, and Strange calls his teammates back?? How...anti-climactic for NA@ 2. Or, is this "sneak peak" of a scene in a future issue of ASM actually a flashback set prior to NA@ 2?


*So my question here is, if we split Mephisto's mumbo jumbo into two phases -- May saved/marriage forgotten and secret ID restored -- do we open the door for Spidey to make many other appearances in black costume during the gap -- NA 27-37, WWH, NX 41, etc.? One benefit this has is to compress the amount of time May is gravely ill in the hospital by pushing OMD to a point much earlier on the calendar.

Just thinking out loud here. I haven't gone back to check on other repercussions of such a suggestion.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Feb 05, 2008 11:43 pm 
By Jason Doty

Paul B. wrote
>>>
I can't see a big gap happening between the Hood forcing Tigra to reveal the New Avengers' whereabouts and the Hood's attack on said whereabouts. Why would Tigra take so long to act? How would she happen to time a visit to the Sanctum long after her betrayal right at the point Hood finally decided to attack? To me, this all makes sense only if Hood acted quickly on his intel and Tigra immediately went to warn her friends.
<<<


Why not put a gap between pages 4 and 5 on NA@2, Tigra gave the bad guys the location. She could have been easily stalking the place untill they made there move, wanting revenge for the treatment she has been enduring and the Initiative side not being able or unwilling to help. Hence her now switching sides.

In that gap putting 

Illuminati no.5
World War Hulk

Is it possible to keep "all" of Spider-Man's Back In Black appearances before One More Day, beter yet even before Aunt May gets shot?

I know they never leave much room in the Spider-Man titles, but is there a gap between him returning to the Black costume and Aunt May getting shot to fit all of his , Initiative, New Avengers World and War Hulk black costume appearances.

			*	*	*

Feb 06, 2008 12:28 am 
By cweed4

Somebody wrote:
>>>
Yes, but I'm saying that the "missing time"/"100 days" cover Back in Black & OMD. [Read only the answers - and note how JQ said in pt 2:

Joephisto wrote:
>>>
Peter toasts, but he's the only one with an empty glass, which to me is as it should be. He's lost a lot, while he doesn't know it and remembers nothing, his world right at this point is certainly a lot emptier.
<<<

People don't remember seeing Spidey for that long because him being on the run, beating up the Kingpin, going after Mr Hyde, feeding Ms Arrow to a bunch of birds, etc "unhappened" - either literally or because their effects were undone & memories/records deleted.

The time jump is purely illusionary, and any Spider-Man flashbacks to before the end of ASM545 reflecting what people think happened in their post-OMD memories are false.
<<<

Sorry, but I think this is all completely wrong. The ONLY thing that has "unhappened" because of OMD is the wedding in ASM@ 21. That's it! Peter still unmasked in CW but everyone (and all records of it) have been erased. JoeQ has clearly stated in numerous interviews that Spidey's history remains intact and that everything (or almost everything  ) still happened exactly the same way. The above quote pertains to the marriage.

			*	*	*

Feb 06, 2008 12:31 am 
By cweed4

Jason Doty wrote:
>>>
Is it possible to keep "all" of Spider-Man's Back In Black appearances before One More Day, beter yet even before Aunt May gets shot?
<<<

Nope. He dons the black costume after, and specifically because of, May getting shot.

			*	*	*

Feb 06, 2008 1:10 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Hey Jason, you attributed Paul's response to me To me, so I fixed it for you. 

cweed4 wrote:
>>>
The ONLY thing that has "unhappened" because of OMD is the wedding in ASM@ 21.
<<<

Exactly. All of PAD's FNSM issues happened, Peter beat up Jameson, May was shot, the Back in Black Sensational issues happened, it all happened. 

Mephisto erased the marriage, and as a follow-up consession to Mary Jane, he restored Peter's secret identity & healed May. That's all that happened, and it happened all at once. 

Sometime after Mephisto did that, Peter & MJ break up. We don't know exactly why yet, but there are plans to eventually show us. Maybe. Mephisto did not break them up, they broke themselves up.(see the above linked Joe Q interview) The break-up happens early(I think) in the 'missing time/100 days', and in the epilogue to OMD, Flash mentions that things are still frosty between Pete & MJ. I took that to mean that they broke up a while ago, and that they still aren't talking. The 'missing time/100 days' all takes place after OMD-proper ends. I'm under the impression that there's a gap of time between OMD & the epilogue, probably close to that 100 day mark. 

Spider-Man hasn't been spotted often during that 100 days, but he has been active. The Free Comic Book Day issue Swing Shift takes place during that time, and I'm sure some other adventures happens then, also. 

Now, having said all of that, I really, really don't see OMD taking place in the middle of current black suit Spider-Man appearances. I just don't. The black suit appearances happen after May is shot and before he makes a deal with Mephisto. By the time he makes the deal, he's not in the black suit anymore.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
if we split Mephisto's mumbo jumbo into two phases -- May saved/marriage forgotten and secret ID restored -- 
<<<

I also don't see this being the case. Mephisto proposes a deal, MJ adds a concession, everyone agrees, BANG! It's done. Doing it in parts? No.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Citing a creator interview concerning the gap of time after May is saved, cweed4 asserts that FNSM 24, too, occurs prior to NA@ 2
<<<

Sure, interview says that time passes after OMD ends, after May is saved, opening up time for May's house to be rebuilt and for Peter to meet new people. But I don't see how that places OMD before the Annual. 

New Avengers Annual 2 has to go before OMD, it's the only order that makes sense for Spider-Man. Until a story is published saying that Spider-Man was wearing the black suit out of mourning for Captain America's death or something, after May is healed, then he's wearing it because of May's situation. However, even 'I'm wearing black for Cap' doesn't fix Peter being unmasked in front of the other Avengers when his secret identity is a secret. That alone places the Annual before OMD. 

As for Strange, if his status ends up the way we think it will leading into Secret Invasion, then I guess we'll have a problem. 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
How would she happen to time a visit to the Sanctum long after her betrayal right at the point Hood finally decided to attack? To me, this all makes sense only if Hood acted quickly on his intel and Tigra immediately went to warn her friends.
<<<

Ah, I glossed over that. Yeah, Tigra makes her way to Strange's place as the villains do, and they arrive at roughly the same time. So forget any time passing between pgs 4 & 5 of the Annual.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Feb 06, 2008 4:35 am 
By simmo

If the Dr Strange in OMD is revealed as a skrull, would that help anything? It strikes me that Spidey could be affected by some mind altering hallucinogen...although that's probably too much detail for background in OMD.

			*	*	*

Feb 06, 2008 8:34 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jason Doty wrote:
>>>
Why not put a gap between pages 4 and 5 on NA@2, Tigra gave the bad guys the location. She could have been easily stalking the place untill they made there move, wanting revenge for the treatment she has been enduring and the Initiative side not being able or unwilling to help. Hence her now switching sides.
<<<

That doesn't make much sense to me, both from Tigra's standpoint and the Hood's standpoint. I think a gap between pages 18 and 19 of A4 37 has more plausibility. It took a while for Hood to break his comrades out of prison. BTS, he was losing credibility among the other villains for this delay and the attack on the Sanctum right after his Raft infiltration was critical to his vindication. Of course, that didn't turn out too well.


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
If the Dr Strange in OMD is revealed as a skrull, would that help anything? It strikes me that Spidey could be affected by some mind altering hallucinogen...although that's probably too much detail for background in OMD.
<<<

Unfortunately, the Skrull theory doesn't help. The Sanctum is still there, intact. And why would Spidey think to go to Strange in the first place if he knows Strange is in exile?

I'd be willing to chalk up all of FSNM 24 as an illusory, dreamlike trick by Mephisto if it weren't for the time travel element that forces the story to occur in reality.

I don't relish the idea of the two-part Mephisto deal with a gap between. It's an interesting outside-the-box idea worth contemplating, given the impossible continuity situation and the unknown way Marvel will handle the OMD time gap, but I hope there's a better solution.

The fundamental problem is that Spidey's and Strange's chronologies are incompatible, thanks to NA@ 2 and FNSM 24. I suppose we'll have to wait and see if future comics resolve this chronological conundrum, but I'm not holding my breath.

The only other theory I have to offer is to reintroduce the idea of wedging a gap between panels on the second-to-last page of FNSM 24. Spidey leaves the Sanctum with Strange's words in his head. He puts on his black costume for some contrived reason, sees his teammates converging on the Sanctum for the BTS mission from which they return in NA@2. Then the Hood's gang attacks, the Sanctum is destroyed and Strange goes into exile. A depressed Spidey chages back into the classic costume (yeah, yeah), Strange's words from FNSM 24 echo in his head again, and he encounters the daughter-that-could've-been at the end of FNSM 24.

This solves the Strange situation and explains how Spidey can unmask in NA@ 2. The only problem I see here is Spidey's costume changes, which I think are fairly minor in the grand scheme of things.Paul B.

			*	*	*

Feb 06, 2008 8:56 am 
By Somebody
Director

cweed4 wrote:
Peter still unmasked in CW but everyone (and all records of it) have been erased.
But everyone's memories and all records of it have been erased. In a strictly de jure sense it may still have "happened", but de facto it all unhappened.

BND picks up straight from OMD. All changes happened in one instant, like the HoM waves.

EDIT: Found this post by one of the Handbook Guys on a related matter http://www.comicboards.com/smb/view.php ... 0118180000

			*	*	*

Feb 06, 2008 2:39 pm 
By cweed4

Somebody wrote:
>>>
But everyone's memories and all records of it have been erased. In a strictly de jure sense it may still have "happened", but de facto it all unhappened.

BND picks up straight from OMD. All changes happened in one instant, like the HoM waves.
<<<

Sorry, but that's not what happened. People still remember that someone unmasked, just not who it was. Believe me, I hated having to try and understand how OMD/BND worked by reading every on-line interview and discussion from JoeQ and others from Marvel. No matter how convoluted the explanations are they have said that everyone still remembers past events, they all still happened, and there is a time gap between OMB and BND. 

From JoeQ-
>>>
Very simply, Peter and MJ were together, the wedding didnt happen. Peter proposed but something happened that cause the wedding to get derailed. What was that thing, what monkey wrench did Mephisto throw into their lives to prevent it, well thats a story for another day. Theres also a very obvious rift between Peter and MJ at the end of OMD, what caused that is also something yet to be revealed. And then theres the Harry piece of the puzzle, ah that pesky Mephisto! So, yes, a lot of this will eventually be dealt with in Amazing Spider-Man moving forward, but not right away as we want to spend the majority of our time in Brand New Day looking forward to establish the new world and then later on deal a bit more with the past as it comes up. 
<<<

The bolded part of the quote establishes both of my points. There is at least some gap in time between the OMD ending in ASM 545 and the BND epilogue in ASM 545 because whatever causes the break-up is yet to be revealed. (Contrary to Col_Fury's opinion I believe this HAS to be attributed to Mephisto's involvement.) This also establishes that the Mephisting is not an instantaneous event because some of his plan is being put into motion over that gap in time. All of the other retcons (eg rebuilding May's house, Harry's return, Jackpot, new friends, etc...) may, OR MAY NOT, be part of the Mephisting. Those stories are also "yet to be revealed".

			*	*	*

Feb 06, 2008 4:19 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

cweed4 wrote:
>>>
All of the other retcons (eg rebuilding May's house, Harry's return, Jackpot, new friends, etc...) may, OR MAY NOT, be part of the Mephisting. 
<<<

I think this is the way most folks are interpreting events:

The Mephisto deal happens all at once. The three elements of the deal are:
1) May's life is saved
2) Peter's and MJ's marriage is forgotten
3) Spidey's identity is forgotten (MJ's addendum)

Time passes after the deal is done. In this time:
1) Pete and M.J. break up
2) May's house is rebuilt
3) Harry returns
4) Jackpot debuts
5) New friends enter Peter's life

The epilog of ASM 545 picks up from there.

Let's wait and see how future flashbacks in ASM handle the time gap. I wouldn't be surprised if Mephisto has nothing to do with anything aside from the 3-point deal described above. Yes, time passes, but it doesn't mean NA@ 2 belongs in that time span.

If the above description of events is accurate, the question remains: how do we reconcile Spidey in NA@ 2? My solution is wedging NA@ 2 between the last two panels of page 24 of FNSM 24. Not very neat, but par for the course; recent continuity gaffes don't afford neat solutions. Any other ideas?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Feb 06, 2008 7:56 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

cweed4 wrote:
>>>
There is at least some gap in time between the OMD ending in ASM 545 and the BND epilogue in ASM 545 because whatever causes the break-up is yet to be revealed.(Contrary to Col_Fury's opinion I believe this HAS to be attributed to Mephisto's involvement.) 
<<<

Well, I'm sure the break-up will be a result from the fall out, but I really don't think that Mephisto breaks them up. There would be an emotional rift between Pete & MJ, he's running around at night & suddenly she doesn't know why. Her not knowing what's he's doing at night would definitely create a rift between them.

I think Mephisto would get more satisfaction from them breaking themselves up, rather than him separating the two. 


cweed4 wrote:
>>>
This also establishes that the Mephisting is not an instantaneous event because some of his plan is being put into motion over that gap in time.
<<<

Well, the Mephisting is 'No more marriage', 'no more public identity', and 'May's healed'. The other changes in status quo from OUR perspective: 


cweed4 wrote:
>>>
(eg rebuilding May's house, Harry's return, Jackpot, new friends, etc...) 
<<<

Are just things we didn't see happen between 'then' and 'now'. I don't see Mephisto rebuilding May's house, for example. 

They would have eventually rebuilt the house, but they couldn't because Peter was a fugitive. When suddenly Peter's not a fugitive anymore, because no one knows who Spider-Man is, May can get her house rebuilt because S.H.I.E.L.D. isn't looking to her for Peter's whereabouts. 


cweed4 wrote:
>>>
Those stories are also "yet to be revealed".
<<<

Exactly. 


Somebody wrote:
>>>
EDIT: Found this post by one of the Handbook Guys on a related matter  ... http://www.comicboards.com/smb/view.php%20...%200118180000
<<<

My rationale: At the end of PAD's FNSM arc, he had a big old fight with the Other, burning out his 'other' powers, resetting him to normal. And he eventually dried up his organic web shooters. *shrug* 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
I think this is the way most folks are interpreting events:

The Mephisto deal happens all at once. The three elements of the deal are:
1) May's life is saved
2) Peter's and MJ's marriage is forgotten
3) Spidey's identity is forgotten (MJ's addendum)

Time passes after the deal is done. In this time:
1) Pete and M.J. break up
2) May's house is rebuilt
3) Harry returns
4) Jackpot debuts
5) New friends enter Peter's life

The epilog of ASM 545 picks up from there.
<<<

Yeah. I think I should add something that doesn't come across that well: 

Mephisto wants the marriage over, and the trade-off is May gets to live. MJ wants Peter's secret identity restored, so the trade-off is Harry's not dead anymore. Harry's return was supposed to be a twist, but I don't think that came across very well in the comic. When you make a deal with the devil, what you want is supposed to be undone, like May getting healed then hit by a bus. She didn't die from the gunshot, she was killed by a bus! Haha, Satan wins! Bringing Harry back doesn't have the same bite. But there it is, I guess. So yeah, Harry was made un-dead, but didn't return to New York until later on.

Something I thought of at work today: Spider-Man's appearance in Avengers: the Initiative. It's post-WWH, he's in the black suit, and May's still in the hospital. If we were to put OMD before the Annual to cut down on the time that May's in the hospital, we would still have to place it after WWH & the Initiative appearance, which wouldn't have the benefit of cutting down May's hospital time. My rationale: May settled into a coma for a while, allowing for all of Spider-Man's various appearances. If she ends up in the hospital for a number of months, Oh Well. 


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
how do we reconcile Spidey in NA@ 2? 
<<<

Hrm. Let's see if Strange makes any more appearances and how he's portrayed before we split up OMD. We may have to end up doing that, but let's wait and see for now.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Feb 07, 2008 11:03 am 
By cweed4

I really hate having to think about OMD again so I will happily concede this debate. I'm quite sure that my interpretations won't jive with whatever Marvel's official history turns out to be anyway.  


Spidey rant:*
My problem is in trying to create gaps w/in ASM 538 and ASM 544 to fit ALL of the black costume appearances. This story was supposed to be happening over a short period of time (a couple days to maybe a week or two). Now we have to stretch out May's coma to months? Worse than that is the inconsistent characterization of Peter that results from all of this. We are supposed to buy the idea that he is exhausting himself trying to save May in a frantic race against the clock. Meanwhile, he finds time for countless adventures in FNSM, SENSM2, WWH, A:I, etc... It all seems like such a preposterous mess. And I'm still confused as to why they restored his secret ID a second time in A:I 7.  


*  I would have hidden this in a spoiler tag because its just a pointless tangent but they don't seem to be avaialble w/ the site update.

			*	*	*

Feb 07, 2008 4:17 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

cweed4 wrote:
>>>
My problem is in trying to create gaps w/in ASM 538 and ASM 544 to fit ALL of the black costume appearances.
<<<

I hear you, buddy. Check outASM 543 for why that's the only viable spot for the black suit appearances.(a major reason being May's hospital room, since that's where she is in the other Spider-Books and in a couple of guest appearances) It's not a comfortable solution by any means. 

You're doing a good job here, cweed4. You're picking up on things that others may not have noticed, and you're bringing them up for discussion. That's the only way we can hammer out chronologies correctly, by looking at every angle for clues and figuring out how they fit together with all of the other books. Sometimes it's fairly simple, and other times, like with this Annual, not so much. So keep it up!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Feb 07, 2008 4:22 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
I hear you, buddy. Check outASM 543 for why that's the only viable spot for the black suit appearances.(a major reason being May's hospital room, since that's where she is in the other Spider-Books and in a couple of guest appearances)
<<<

Actually, on that... what about WWH? Logically, May was evacuated with the rest of the city then moved back (not necessarily to the same room) after Damage Control went to work. Does that have any impact on any hospital scenes?

			*	*	*

Feb 07, 2008 4:33 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Well, Iniative 7 has May in her private hospital room post-WWH. I don't know if it matters that it's the same room, as long as it's still private. Was she moved? Did that hospital not do anything? Did Damage Control rebuild the hospitals first? Who knows? 

But yeah, Initiative 7 establishes that she's still hospitalized after WWH ends. And since we know that she was shot in the last days of Civil War, then she's been hospitalized from Civil War's end through to after WWH.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Feb 07, 2008 5:54 pm 
By Somebody
Director

What I meant was, could there have been further moves after ASM543?

			*	*	*

Feb 07, 2008 8:04 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Probably not. She's in the private room for all of her other appearances, she's only in a public area for the end of ASM 543 & the beginning of ASM 544.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Feb 08, 2008 7:56 am 
By Somebody
Director

One more thing - Ant-Man suffers some severe injures by being caught between Iron Man & the Hulk (from WWH1/IM19) in ANT 10. He wakes up "a month" later, far from fully healed. He then gets tortured, compounding those injures and getting his insides ripped apart to boot.

Once he's mostly, finally, healed from all of that "much time" later, he gets sent back to his old job. At this point, Veronica King - who he got pregnant in #4, is heavily "showing" (she wasn't in #9, just pre-WWH). And at the end, he passes by a fight between the Absorbing Man... and black-suit Spidey.

That would seem to be evidence for "months" May was in that coma.

			*	*	*

Feb 10, 2008 5:51 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

And here's a preview page from New Avengers #41, from Tom Brevoort's blog: 

http://www.marvel.com/globals/view_generic.htm?filename=/i/content/st/1040new_storyimage1907677_full.jpg

And there's Spider-Man in his classic Red & Blues. Hopefully, an obvious slot will make itself aparent for Strange to appear in OMD post-Annual 2. Going by just Spider-Man's costume, it seems the intent is for OMD to follow the Annual and precede at least New Avengers 41.(unless, of course, this is a FlashBack.)

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Feb 10, 2008 10:13 am 
By Marvologist

All they had to do was show Spider-Man in the red and blue costume in NEW AVENGERS ANNUAL 2 and it all would have made sense, as far as OMD goes. Especially since there was a jump in time after page 4 of the NEW AVENGERS ANNUAL to post-WWH, or so it seems. That jump in time removed the obligation to show Spider-Man in the black costume since it didn't continue immediately from NEW AVENGERS 37 in terms of the timeline. That's all they had to do. Illustrate and colour him in the original costume. It didn't matter what costume he was in. So why couldn't they have done that? It would have been the simplest thing in the world. 

I guess the scary answer is that Bendis didn't mean to imply that much of a space in time after page 4 as we'd like to interpret and actually thought it made sense for World War frickin' Hulk of all things to take place within a couple of hours and end before the Hood's ambush. It wouldn't take that much time and energy away from concentrating on writing the main story for these writers to pay attention to the little details.

I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Feb 10, 2008 10:41 am 
By Somebody
Director

Bear in mind that they probably didn't know if ASM545 would be out by the time NA@ 2 was released when this was being written & drawn...

			*	*	*

Feb 10, 2008 12:46 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Marvologist wrote:
>>>
All they had to do was show Spider-Man in the red and blue costume in NEW AVENGERS ANNUAL 2 and it all would have made sense, as far as OMD goes. 
<<<

Well, that, and (more importantly) not to have Peter remove his frikkin' mask in NA@ 2. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Feb 23, 2008 12:50 pm 
By Marvologist

Oh God, was that a reference in NEW AVENGERS 38 to both battles with the Hood happening in [i]one[i] night? I'm sure you all read that. Even if you fit NEW AVENGERS ANNUAL 2 into the last bit of FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN 24, where in the hell do you place WWH into the New Avengers timeline since the post-Civil War issues started? They seemed to follow directly from Captain America's death in a continuous timeline through to now. With no breaks in Revolution and The Trust. Am I right?

I want to know everything.

			*	*	*

Feb 23, 2008 1:33 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Marvologist wrote:
>>>
where in the hell do you place WWH into the New Avengers timeline
<<<

Before NA 28. 

No, that's not a serious suggestion (we've got Echo and Ronin both in WWH, after all), but here's the thing - Spider-Woman's referenced as a member of the NEW Avengers in WWH 2. What does that do to placement?

			*	*	*

Mar 08, 2008 3:34 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Oy. Preview for ASM #555...

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=149389

We're well past "One More Day" at this point, and what have we here ... Dr. Strange, Wong, and a still-standing and still boarded-up Bleecker Street sanctum.

On the minus side, I think we're going to have to break down and assume that in some behind-the-scenes, possibly-upcoming story, Dr. Strange returns and goes back to letting the NA'ers hang out at his place.

On the plus side, making this annoying assumption gives more breathing room for other things -- it makes it easier to place OMD after NA@2, instead of presuming a lot of back-and-forth costume changes, chopping it up and squeezing it between panels.

I say, embrace the screw-up!  Let it liberate our chronological placements! Let's all get drunk!

Maybe one of the knock-on effects of Mephisto's deal in OMD was the restoration of the Sanctum, just like May's house was restored...?   

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 08, 2008 5:15 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Jeph, I mentioned this back on p2, and it was brought up in another thread as well. A preview page with Wolverine/Strange/Sanctum's been floating around for months.

My vote is still to wait - although, if pushed, I say ignore the black suit/mask off in NA@ 2 and treat that as post-OMD. I can't imagine Strange's status won't factor into something upcoming, probably SI.

			*	*	*

Mar 08, 2008 6:10 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
I mentioned this back on p2
<<<

So you did. Thought it sounded familiar.


>>>
My vote is still to wait
<<<

That's pretty much always my vote as well. However, these young hooligans these days just can't wait to chronologize right off the press -- no desire to wait for some context, just wham and done and set in stone. It's kind of frustrating, actually, so I tend to overcompensate with off-the-cuff chronological suggestions based on rumors and preview pages, determined to stay one step ahead of these young turks... 


>>>
if pushed, I say ignore the black suit/mask off in NA@ 2 and treat that as post-OMD.
<<<

I really, really don't want to have to do that.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 08, 2008 6:46 pm 
By Somebody
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
My vote is still to wait
<<<

That's pretty much always my vote as well.
<<<

Which I'm sure is nothing to do with you Waiting For The Trade 


jephyork wrote:
>>>
However, these young hooligans these days just can't wait to chronologize right off the press -- no desire to wait for some context, just wham and done and set in stone. It's kind of frustrating, actually, so I tend to overcompensate with off-the-cuff chronological suggestions based on rumors and preview pages, determined to stay one step ahead of these young turks... 
<<<

Well, what "wham and done" decisions have been made of the TPBs you have that you would reverse, hmm?


jephyork wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
if pushed, I say ignore the black suit/mask off in NA@ 2 and treat that as post-OMD.
<<<

I really, really don't want to have to do that.
<<<

Understandable - but it looks like we've got one of those "A before B before C before A" loops where something will have to give, and if nothing comes along to resolve it (and, short of an actual retcon, I'm not sure what can - you really think Bendis is going to undo NA@ 2? Me neither.) my instinct is to say the Spider-Man cluster should.

			*	*	*

Mar 09, 2008 2:23 am 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
Well, what "wham and done" decisions have been made ... that you would reverse, hmm?
<<<

Beats me, I haven't had the time lately to really do any deep thinking on the matter. I just don't like the rush to judgment that occasionally happens around here ... because, when later issues come out and a more elegant solution might present itself, it's too late -- it's already been decided in everyone's minds that we're going with the initial suggestions, and we've all moved on to chronologizing the NEXT hot-off-the-presses issue.

Note I said "occasionally". I don't need to be hit with a bunch of instances where we have rethought things based on later evidence. I'm just griping.

In general, though, I'm sure everyone would agree that you can't perform a thoughtful analysis on a story that hasn't finished yet.


>>>
my instinct is to say the Spider-Man cluster should.
<<<

And my instinct is to say that Strange's situation should. Earlier in the thread, someone made a compelling argument that (a) we didn't see Strange's mansion *demolished* in NA@2, just *damaged*, and (b) pointed out that when Spidey dropped in on him in OMD, he needed to ask permission to come in -- which could be used as evidence that this occurs after Strange disassociated himself from the team in the Annual.

By the way, since you asked, THAT -- to me -- is a good example of an alternate theory that went more-or-less undebated because everyone had apparently already made up their minds to splice up OMD and pretend that Peter switched costumes four times for no reason.

I'd rather assume that, although Strange gave the team the boot after the Annual and "pretended" to exile himself while he made repairs to his sanctum, he later softened his position (perhaps after Spidey's frantic visit in OMD, assuming Strange remembers it now) and let them hang out there again (as we'll see in ASM #555). If later stories force the issue by showing Strange returning from a retreat or exile, we can simply assume that sometime after ASM #555, Strange went on an actual retreat.

Although, as always, the safest bet is to wait until (a) ASM #555 comes out, and/or (b) Strange resurfaces elsewhere.

*Can* we wait?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Mar 09, 2008 3:18 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Earlier in the thread, someone made a compelling argument that (a) we didn't see Strange's mansion *demolished* in NA@2, just *damaged*, and (b) pointed out that when Spidey dropped in on him in OMD, he needed to ask permission to come in -- which could be used as evidence that this occurs after Strange disassociated himself from the team in the Annual.
<<<

That was me.  And I still prefer it. 


jephyork wrote:
>>>
Although, as always, the safest bet is to wait until (a) ASM #555 comes out, and/or (b) Strange resurfaces elsewhere.

*Can* we wait?
<<<

I think we *have* to. But in the meantime, I like my theory. 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 09, 2008 3:23 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Jeph wrote:
>>>
these young turks...
<<<

"Young?" I'll take that as a compliment!  

I, too, am standing pat with a theory, and it's based on what's already been published, not conjecture about out-of-context panels in future issues. The damage to the Sanctum looked pretty extensive to me, SHIELD probably took control of the place after swooping in at the end of NA@ 2, and Strange's exile seemed to set up a new status quo for him and the the New Avengers, as followed up on in A 38. When new info comes to light that forces the theory to change, I'll be happy (well, mostly) to change it. And that's quite likely. After all, we're talking about continuity based on Strange...and he's...magic! You know... magic! 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Mar 09, 2008 6:16 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
based on what's already been published, not conjecture

SHIELD probably took control

Strange's exile seemed to set up a new status quo
<<<

...I see.

For the record, Col. Fury's theory, that I'm championing, has nothing to do with "out-of-context preview panels". He simply found a way to read NA@2 that allowed OMD to occur afterwards, and I agree with it. The preview panels just reinforce his theory in my mind.


>>>
When new info comes to light that forces the theory to change, I'll be happy (well, mostly) to change it.
<<<

Why the rush to come up with any theory right now? Why not wait and see what context later issues provide, so you don't have to re-think your initial assumptions and essentially do everything over again?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 03, 2008 1:42 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

ASM 555 is out, and in the letters page they come out and say it's a mistake caused by scheduling. They even put out a call for explanations to be rewarded with a No-Prize! So I've dusted off my old letter hacking skillz and shot off an e-mail. We'll see what happens... in about a month. 

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 03, 2008 7:13 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Fury, what did you propose?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Apr 03, 2008 7:35 am 
By morwen

It's already been hinted there is a long gap between ASM 545 (OMD part 4) and ASM 546 (first BND). So, let us take that up

*NA@2 (Spider-Man Black, Doctor Strange goes away)
*OMD [make this compatible with NA@2 however you see fit]
*Spider-Man changes costumes
*NA38 (Spider-Man Red), the gang find a new place to hang out

*Secret Invasion, etc

*Doctor Strange comes back
*ASM 546
*In ASM 555 Spider-Man makes what could be taken as oblique reference to Secret Invasion

Except this fails because the latest She-Hulk refers to events in BND, and is clearly pre-Secret Invasion.

Wow, this is quite hard, isn't it?

			*	*	*

Apr 03, 2008 10:22 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Morwen, move "Secret Invasion" to after ASM #555 and I'm right there with you. "Doctor Strange comes back" -- it's as simple as that...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 03, 2008 10:45 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Fury, what did you propose? 
<<<

I know you didn't intend it to be read like this, but as I saw it I thought it would be a whole lot funnier if it read like this: 

Fury... what did you propose?   

Emoticons are fun! Anyway, I'll paraphrase: 

Spider-Man participates in New Avengers Annual #2, where Dr. Strange's house is damaged and he leaves the team. Soon after, One More Day occurs where Spider-Man has to demand to be let into Dr. Strange's boarded up house.(which is a nice turnaround. At first, Dr. Strange cast an illusion that made his house look damaged and boarded up, then when it actually IS damaged and boarded up he has to cast an illusion inside to make it look nice again) Later, Dr. Strange realized he was being a jerk back in New Avengers Annual #2 and started letting the guys hang out at his place again, as seen in Amazing #555, where we see that Dr. Strange is still weak from all the dark magics he's had to use lately.(as referenced in New Avengers Annual #2) And if some future comic needs Dr. Strange to be in exile, as he said he would be in New Avengers Annual #2, he finally decided to do it after he collapses here. 


morwen wrote:
>>>
Wow, this is quite hard, isn't it?
<<<

Sometimes, but it's always fun! Welcome to the boards, morwen!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 04, 2008 10:32 am 
By Somebody
Director

jephyork wrote:
>>>
Morwen, move "Secret Invasion" to after ASM #555 and I'm right there with you. "Doctor Strange comes back" -- it's as simple as that...
<<<

I'm not prepared to go with that unless Strange reappears for real, living like normal with Wong in the Sanctum at full power, with absolutely no reference (or at most a non-recent-past-tense reference) to the events of NA@ 2. Nothing's changed, except that the error which seemed confirmed now is now absolutely confirmed.

Meanwhile, Secret Invasion #1 picks up the New Avengers in their post-NA@ 2 status of living in Iron Fist's indirectly-owned apartment. And we've been told - though not with specifics - that that won't be their status post-SI. So you're suggesting Strange comes back, says "I'm alright again", the NAs say "Well, that's alright then", the Sanctum is reclaimed and repaired without SHIELD-related difficulty,... and then the NAs move out again, moving back to Iron Fist's building.

I think I've said before that I hate multiple off-panel U-turns. I still hate them. And I would be prepared to take any other solution over that, including "forgetting" that Spider-Man has his mask off in NA@ 2.

			*	*	*

Apr 04, 2008 10:46 am 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
the Sanctum is reclaimed and repaired without SHIELD-related difficulty,...
<<<

I would think that magic trumps SHIELD pretty much any day.


>>>
and then the NAs move out again
<<<

See, this assumes that they moved back IN to begin with. I didn't see "the New Avengers" in ASM #555 -- I saw Spidey and Wolvie. Maybe they just dropped by for breakfast with Wong.

Assuming that the entire NA roster officially moved back into Dr. Strange's mansion, then all officially moved back out again, is creating a hurdle where none exists.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 04, 2008 10:56 am 
By jephyork
Director

Further thoughts:

We basically have two ways to go here. One of the following things is a mistake, and needs to be dealt with:

1) Dr. Strange's appearances in One More Day and ASM #555.

2) Spidey's costume and lack of mask in NA@2.

If we assume that #1 is the mistake, Col_Fury has demonstrated that there are various ways of "explaining" Dr. Strange's anomolous post-NA@2 appearances. This is a situation that, while clumsy, can be made to work.

If we assume that #2 is the mistake ... there is simply NO WAY TO EXPLAIN IT. Spidey absolutely cannot appear unmasked after the events of ASM #545. We have to write it off as "an error", pure and simple, and stick an unmasked, black-costume Spidey appearance long after the events of OMD.

I'd prefer to go with the clumsy yet explainable solution, than the "this is a glaring error and we're just going to ignore it" solution.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 04, 2008 11:08 am 
By Somebody
Director

Unless, as I've said, the Strange plot is completely dropped from here on (as the Silent War ending has now essentially been), I don't see the Strange situation as any more explainable. IF it's dropped, THEN it becomes "clumsy, but explainable" in the way you and Fury are describing - otherwise you're just transferring the same problem from Spider-Man to Strange.

And thus we need to wait to see if it's picked up in Strange's next appearance.

			*	*	*

Apr 04, 2008 12:03 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
Unless ... the Strange plot is completely dropped from here on ... I don't see the Strange situation as any more explainable.
<<<

Col_Fury just explained how to get back to the NA@2 status quo!


if some future comic needs Dr. Strange to be in exile, as he said he would be in New Avengers Annual #2, he finally decided to do it after he collapses here.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 04, 2008 12:16 pm 
By Somebody
Director

So, the risk of completely losing control and killing everyone wasn't enough to make him go through with taking the time to strip away all the Bad Magic that might make him do that?

Not seeing it. At the end of NA@ 2, he's an active danger to everyone around him. THAT'S WHY HE LEAVES. Not because he was a jerk (in fact, HE DOESN'T KICK THEM OUT OF THE SANCTUM. Danvers is the one who tells them to git on the basis that if they don't, she'll have to arrest them; as I pointed out the first time Fury said that.), but because he nearly killed them all (barring Wong's lucky intervention) AND HE MIGHT DO IT AGAIN.

Fury's predicating his whole theory on a different NA@ 2 ending to the one I read.

			*	*	*

Apr 04, 2008 1:26 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Well, I'm still not sold on the "ignore Peter's unmasked face" bit ... but I'll agree that we should probably wait until Dr. Strange appears again, to see how his story is continued.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Apr 04, 2008 9:55 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

He could have gone on exile to purge the dark magics,(NA@ 2) returned to let people hang out at his place, then collapsed because he was weak from the purging.(ASM 555) Then he went into exile again to be picked up on in a future issue. 

I don't know, and none of us will until we see Strange's next appearance. However, 


jephyork wrote:
>>>
If we assume that #2 is the mistake ... there is simply NO WAY TO EXPLAIN IT. Spidey absolutely cannot appear unmasked after the events of ASM #545. We have to write it off as "an error", pure and simple, and stick an unmasked, black-costume Spidey appearance long after the events of OMD.
<<<

Whatever solution ends up being used is going to require some kind of BTS explanation, and I really, really don't want to use 'art error' for such a major Spider-Man plot point. *shrug*

Wait & SeeTM seems to be the best option.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 05, 2008 9:45 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Wait & SeeTM seems to be the best option.
<<<

That's what I've been told...by one of the more recent participants in this discussion.  

The issue of Spidey chronology relative to Secret Invasion came up at some point. I should note that ASM 546-548 is tightly linked to the current MSM2 story arc, as Jonah's heart attack is news in MSM2 25. And the current MSM2 story arc is a Secret Invasion tie-in. ASM 549 begins a "week" after ASM 548 and the story arc that runs to ASM 555 takes nine days to unfold. Thus, Spidey's and Logan's hanging at the Sanctum occurs two weeks after the MSM2 25 Secret Invasion tie-in.

Interesting that, if ASM 555 occurs after NA@1 (which it must, given Spidey's mask situation and the NA tie-in to Secret Invasion), the sham of the Sanctum being a future Starbuck's is perpetuated after the Sanctum is repaired. Maybe SHIELD's response to the battle at the Sanctum in NA@1 was wiped from all agents' memories and records as if...by magic! 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Apr 05, 2008 4:05 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Can I get a clarification on something brought up and dropped earlier in the thread - what, exactly, is the current editorial position on what characters remember about Spider-Man between Cap's arrest and BND? People were claiming earlier in the thread, on a different reading of Joe Q's interviews from me, that Spider-Man had been officially around between CW & BND. And I've just read this at spiderfan.org that tallies with the way I read things, that others were saying wasn't true:


>>>
http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/reviews ... g/547.html
So what else can I say about this issue? Slott finally clears up the mystery of whether the Swing Shift story from Free Comic Book Day 2007 (Spider-Man) is in continuity or not. Apparently, that story showcases the only time since the end of the Civil War that Spider-Man has been seen in public in his costume. Quite what that does to continuity over in New Avengers in anyone's guess.
<<<

Again, that was my reading of Joe Q's interviews, etc. Is that supported by ASM547? (either in the letters page or story)

			*	*	*

Apr 05, 2008 11:13 pm 
By cweed4

I'm pretty sure Spidey's appearance in Swing Shift is the first time he is seen in his classic costume since CW. Between BiB, NA, WWH, etc... there is NO WAY it is his first public appearance since CW. And, to repeat my previous argument, everyone remembers everything EXCEPT Spidey's identity.


jephyork wrote:
>>>
Further thoughts:

We basically have two ways to go here. One of the following things is a mistake, and needs to be dealt with:
1) Dr. Strange's appearances in One More Day and ASM #555.
2) Spidey's costume and lack of mask in NA@2.
<<<

Not to toot my own horn, but my previous 2-step Mephisting theory does remove the mistake entirely.

TOOT! TOOT! 

			*	*	*

Apr 06, 2008 12:25 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

The reviewer, Neil McClean, points out that the story references recent New Avengers issues,(the Hood arc) which it does. Those issues can't have both happened and not happened.


cweed4 wrote:
>>>
I'm pretty sure Spidey's appearance in Swing Shift is the first time he is seen in his classic costume since CW. Between BiB, NA, WWH, etc... there is NO WAY it is his first public appearance since CW. 
<<<

Exactly. 


cweed4 wrote:
>>>
And, to repeat my previous argument, everyone remembers everything EXCEPT Spidey's identity.
<<<

Right. The events after Civil War and before One More Day still happened, the only difference is that no one remembers who Spider-Man is under the mask. He still unmasked, everyone knew at the time, but no one remembers now. Aside from the marriage, everything happened the way it happened, and at the time everyone knew Spider-Man was Peter Parker. After One More Day, no one remembers that Spider-Man is Peter Parker.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 06, 2008 2:48 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
ASM 555 is out, and in the letters page they come out and say it's a mistake caused by scheduling. They even put out a call for explanations to be rewarded with a No-Prize!
<<<

I'm hoping they'll post the winner, (along with his explanation) in the letter's page here in the next few weeks. My concern is: if Marvel adopts the winner's explanation as the official "canon" answer, if that answer makes no sense to us chronologists, then do we have to swallow what Marvel says as the gospel truth?!?


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
He still unmasked, everyone knew at the time, but no one remembers now.
<<<

As it stands, the way the stories are reading, it's more like he never unmasked, instead of everyone forgetting.

I, for one, would like to see just one reference to the unmasking by the new creative teams on ASM. I'd settle for a passerby on the street saying, "Anyone else remember Spider-Man unmasking? Does anyone else think it's wierd that we can't remember what he looked like under his mask?!?"Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Apr 06, 2008 5:23 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
ASM 555 is out, and in the letters page they come out and say it's a mistake caused by scheduling. They even put out a call for explanations to be rewarded with a No-Prize!
<<<

I'm hoping they'll post the winner, (along with his explanation)
<<<

or hers!  


Kevin W. wrote:
>>>
in the letter's page here in the next few weeks. My concern is: if Marvel adopts the winner's explanation as the official "canon" answer, if that answer makes no sense to us chronologists, then do we have to swallow what Marvel says as the gospel truth?!?
<<<

If whatever answer they come up with actively contradicts the published stories then I'm sure we would ignore it, just like we have in the past with the Indexes.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Apr 07, 2008 7:25 am 
By morwen

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
The reviewer, Neil McClean, points out that the story references recent New Avengers issues,(the Hood arc) which it does. Those issues can't have both happened and not happened.

cweed4 wrote:
>>>
I'm pretty sure Spidey's appearance in Swing Shift is the first time he is seen in his classic costume since CW. Between BiB, NA, WWH, etc... there is NO WAY it is his first public appearance since CW. 
<<<

Exactly. 


cweed4 wrote:
>>>
And, to repeat my previous argument, everyone remembers everything EXCEPT Spidey's identity.
<<<

Right. The events after Civil War and before One More Day still happened, the only difference is that no one remembers who Spider-Man is under the mask. He still unmasked, everyone knew at the time, but no one remembers now. Aside from the marriage, everything happened the way it happened, and at the time everyone knew Spider-Man was Peter Parker. After One More Day, no one remembers that Spider-Man is Peter Parker.

Does *he* remember he unmasked?

			*	*	*

Apr 07, 2008 11:17 am 
By cweed4

That's a question I've been wondering about since ASM 546. Quite frankly, I don't think Marvel can answer it. 

-If yes, then Peter would not know why others don't know his secret identity. 
-If no, then Peter would be confused by any reference to the unmasking.

Either way, it would create a rather important question that Peter should want to figure out. 

Such a problem would (probably) only be resolved by adding to the existing retcon. So, I don't see it happening.

			*	*	*

Apr 16, 2008 7:14 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Another clue that supports the theory that Dr. Strange returns to from his self-imposed exile sometime after NA@ 2 -- last week's FF 556. It that comic, Spidey appears in his classic costume and Dr. Strange appears as well, lending his magical powers in the fight against the CAP robot. This story could occur during the "100 days" before ASM 546 that Spidey is not seen publicly (except for Swing Shift) as the battle in FF 556 takes place in the remote Arctic. That placement is supported by the presence of Ms. Marvel with the Mighty Avengers in FF 556, which should occur before the current Skrully arc in MSM, which ties directly into ASM 546 by virtue of the reference to Jonah's heart attack. (T'Challa and Storm participate in the battle in FF 556 too, perhaps before Messiah Complex and the contemporaneous current BP arc.)

Pure conjecture -- the New (Secret) Avengers discover that Strange is back during the FF 556 battle and they set up shop again in the Sanctum sometime after that and before Spidey and Logan are seen there in ASM 555. Of course, as Secret Invasion proceeds, we'll see why all this can't work. 

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Apr 16, 2008 5:09 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Isn't FF completely post-Secret Invasion? Certainly, the continued use of the Pacheco costumes in SI & tie-ins strongly suggests a clean slate that Millar/Hitch pick up with afterwards, and you're putting the cart before the horse in placing Millar/Hitch F4 now.

Anything else, barring explicit evidence during SI that it must take place prior, seems to go against a pretty clear editorial statement. It wouldn't have taken anything to have the Hitch costumes in SI & SI:F4.

			*	*	*

Apr 17, 2008 7:11 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Another "wait and see" I suppose. It's hard to see anything happening after SI, given how long the whole event will take place and not knowing what big shakeups will result from it. The FF title won't tie in to SI, as far as I know. Do we know the new FF costumes are here to stay?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Apr 17, 2008 10:28 am 
By Somebody
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
The FF title won't tie in to SI, as far as I know.
<<<

No, ASM & F4, since they were being worked on so far in advance (reputedly, Millar & Hitch were starting on their current issues at the same time McDuffie & Pelletier were starting on their, prior, run - one reason why I take the choice of F4 costumes for SI as a major clue, since Hitch certainly did his first issue while Yu was still on New Avengers) that they're not tying in. Instead, there'll be SI:F4 (three issues, Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa & Barry Kitson, with Alan Davis covers, following the Thing, Torch & kids after they were sucked into the N-Zone in SI1) & SI:SM (no details announced AFAIK) minis.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Do we know the new FF costumes are here to stay?
<<<

For at least the whole of Millar & Hitch's run. Since that's 16 issues, and probably at least a year and a half,...

After that, it depends entirely on who follows them I suppose.

			*	*	*

Apr 18, 2008 7:18 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Then we're left with several alternatives:
1) FF 556 occurs before SI, and the FF's costumes in SI are erroneous (hey, that's been known to happen)
2) FF 556 occurs before SI, and the FF switched costumes temporarily (seems to me that in recent years the FF have been taking cues from the Wasp)
3) FF 556 occurs after SI, meaning that the New Avengers, the Mighty Avengers, T'Challa, Ororo, etc. all appear there after SI concludes (the continuity ramifications of which are hard to foresee at this point)

My original point, though, was that FF 556 supports the return of Dr. Strange after his exile. If FF 556 is pre-SI, then Doc could appear in FF 556 before ASM 555; if FF 556 is post-SI, then he'd have to appear in FF 556 after ASM 555 because of ASM's tie-in to MSM and MSM's tie-in to SI. Interesting that Logan and Spidey are in the Sanctum in ASM 555, but SI 1 shows the New Avengers in their apartment. As we say..."wait and see..."

Paul B.

			*	*	*

May 15, 2008 5:11 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Okay, Dr Strange sighting in Last Defenders #3. Key points:

1) He's back in Greenwich Village "temporarily" because of a stampede of Nightmare's giant horses, which he seems to see as a dare aimed at him. He's not living there, and he says he shouldn't be there at all.
2) He's in absolutely no shape for a fight - he can basically fly and nothing else, his hands are still a mess and he claims his "mystical energies are at an all-time low" (given all the crap in the Dr Strange: Sorcerer Supreme series, this can't be literally true - but it's the lowest he's been his standard costume, which he usually strips off or changes past a certain point), and needs to be saved by Daimon Hellstrom.
3) He seems to have been monitoring events in the outside world to some extent, since he's heard of the Defenders team from #1 (but not that they've broken up already). However, he's VERY clear that he's going to be leading a "decidedly solitary existence" from now on.

			*	*	*

May 16, 2008 11:19 am 
By jephyork
Director

How does his Sanctum look? Trashed? Regular/rebuilt? Boarded up/Starbucks? Not shown?

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

May 16, 2008 11:27 am 
By Somebody
Director

Not shown. The scene takes place in a park with a prominent marble arch in the background (presumably meant to evoke a real-life location, but I've never been to NY).

			*	*	*

May 16, 2008 6:28 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Probably Washington Square Park.

I think the New Warriors defeated the Badoon there too (Initiative #10) ... popular place!

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

May 17, 2008 9:38 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Tentatively still okay. I have LDEF 3 occurring before ASM 555-FB, in which Strange is back in the Sanctum with Logan; of course, both of them are red-circle guys. I suppose Strange's appearance in Alaska with other heroes in FF 556 would have to go after LDEF 3, too. So perhaps the decidedly solitary existence Strange anticipates is limited, or we're talking red circles...

Paul B.

			*	*	*

May 19, 2008 7:35 pm 
By Somebody
Director

File under "just checking" 


>>>
http://forum.newsarama.com/showpost.php?p=5553751 wrote:
Somebody: Strange wasn't living in Greenwich Village in that scene, he was just visiting because of "Nightmare's herd", correct? He's still in whatever isolation he popped off to at the end of the New Avengers Annual most of the time?

J[oe] C[asey]: You got it, Somebody. He was compelled to return to try and protect his home turf. 
<<<

			*	*	*

May 19, 2008 10:17 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Somebody wrote:
>>>
File under "just checking" 
<<<

Gotta love the internet.  


watching: showbiz tonight

			*	*	*

May 21, 2008 1:54 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Dr. Strange's prominent role in the last few "Avengers/Invaders" solicits is starting to raise some flags in my head...

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jun 05, 2008 10:41 am 
By morwen

And A/I 2 has the New Avengers, including red-and-blue-suit Spidey, hanging at Doctor Strange's.

Is the least-energy solution to assume that NA's depiction of Spider-man wearing black, and showing his face, is the error? Let us pretend that stopped happening a few issues before. There's an entire era here, of stories where the status quo is post-OMD but pre-NA@2.

			*	*	*

Jun 05, 2008 11:59 am 
By Somebody
Director

Yes. That's what I've held to be the least-worst solution practically from the start...

			*	*	*

Jun 06, 2008 7:06 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Still "wait and see" for me. I'm thinking Strange keeps letting his self-imposed exile get interrupted for various reasons. Let's see...we have:
GSASTONX 1
FF 556-557
LDEF 3
ASM 555-FB
Then A/INV 2 shows the New Avengers occupying the Sanctum (no Strange yet)

No wonder he's not getting better. We'll have to see how Secret Invasion shakes out. Did you guys catch the winning explanation for Strange being in ASM 555-FB?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jun 06, 2008 9:08 am 
By Somebody
Director

The only one of those which doesn't show Strange at levels at least comparable to normal is Last Defenders - which is ALSO the only one to explicitly follow NA@ 2, and which ALSO explicitly states Strange ISN'T living at the Sanctum, nor in the company of others.

			*	*	*

Jun 06, 2008 4:59 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
I'm thinking Strange keeps letting his self-imposed exile get interrupted for various reasons. Let's see... No wonder he's not getting better.
<<<

That's what I'm saying.  


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Did you guys catch the winning explanation for Strange being in ASM 555-FB? 
<<<

Tom Huxley @ ASM 561 wrote:
>>>
Despite having quit the Avengers, Dr. Strange invites Spidey & Logan over for breakfast every morning just because he secretly enjoys watching the look on Wong's face as he realizes he's going to have to tidy up after them. 
<<<

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jun 06, 2008 5:05 pm 
By Somebody
Director

*sigh*

That's an "it's magic, we don't have to explain it"-quality explanation that is.

http://forum.newsarama.com/showpost.php?p=4946249&postcount=1

			*	*	*

Jun 06, 2008 9:42 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

Should've guessed that would be the case. Looks like it's up to us then, to sort things out.

I'm still waiting for a rationale explanation to the amount of time that's passed!

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Jun 27, 2008 7:57 am 
By morwen

Paul Bourcier wrote:
Then A/INV 2 shows the New Avengers occupying the Sanctum (no Strange yet)


A/INV 3 preview shows 

Dr. Strange with the Cageist Avengers, interacting with Jessica Drew (who is part of the Starkist faction), and Spider-Man in red and blue.

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Subject: Ship/Professor/Prosh, Uni-Power

Jun 29, 2008 9:03 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Just noticed some updates have been made to these, based mostly on stuff I and others posted a while back. Three things.

1) Any appearance of Ship/Professor/Prosh where (a) he's called Professor and/or (b) he appears with an adult Cable (indeed, any comic Nate refers to himself AS "Cable"), or a younger Nate is aware of his presence MUST take place AFTER the Askani'Son mini - as that's where the teenage Cable first becomes aware of him and dubs him "Professor". Currently, Shadow Riders - a comic I haven't got, but which is placed entirely after XFOR 10 in Cable's chronology - is placed before Askani'Son in the Professor section of the chronology for some reason.

2) PPTSS 158 is missing from the Uni-Power chronology for no obvious reason - that's the issue where it tries - and only half-succeeds - to bond with Spider-Man, and should very much be there without a BTS tag (there are other omissions, but I presume those books aren't in the MCP yet at all).

3) GOTG 30 is typoed as GOTO 30 in the Uni-Power chronology.

			*	*	*

Thread 21

Subject: the TWELVE 5

May 29, 2008 1:02 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

the Twelve #5
July, 2008 

Appearances: 
Black Widow(Claire Voyant), Blue Blade(Roy Chambers), Captain Wonder(Professor Steve Jordan), Dynamic Man(Curt Cowan), Electro Marvel of the Age!(robot), Fiery Mask(Dr. Jack Castle), Laughing Mask(Dennis Burton), Master Mind Excello(Earl Everett), Phantom Reporter(Dick Jones), the Witness(?), Colonel Dexter, Ms. Zogolowski

Synopsis:
pg1-pg3pn1
The Witness hangs out at Bunches Diner and chats with the waitress. She turns on the news to see a clip of Dynamic Man. 
Pg3pn2-pg4pn2-FB
Dynamic Man helps a S.W.A.T. team defeat a terrorist cell in New Jersey. Afterwards at a press conference, he hails J. Edgar Hoover as a mans man. 
Pg4pn3-pg4pn6
The waitress makes fun of Dynamic Mans comment, then the Witness tells his story...
Pg5-pg6pn1-FB
A Chicago policeman shoots an innocent man, because he didnt wait to see what was going on. His badge was taken and he was sent to prison for two years. When he was released, he couldnt get a job and was starving in alleyways. 
Pg6pn2-pg6pn3
The Witness explains he did the only thing he could do: kill himself. 
Pg6pn4-FB
Between life and death, a voice speaks to him: he will be given another chance, but to save his soul he must separate good from evil as he failed to do before his death. 
Pg6pn5-pg8
The Witness explains that hes shown a glimpse of something terrible that will happen, and he has to find out if the terrible thing is deserved or not. If it is, he witnesses it, if not, he has to prevent it. He then steps outside to watch an old man get run over by a bus on Yancy Street.(the old man was a prison guard at Auschwitz, as it turns out) 
Pg9-pg23: the next day
Dynamic Man tells the group that hes working with the FBI again, and starts a fight with Captain Wonder. Meanwhile, Professor Zogs daughter Ms. Zogolowski attempts to gain possession of Electro, but is given the cold shoulder by Col. Dexter. Elsewhere, the Blue Blade auditions for the networks and is given his own show.(even though his act is filled with terrible wife jokes) Prof. Jordan gives his first motivational talk to youngsters, and is shocked by the realities they face every day. Afterwards, Dynamic Man gives him a speech explaining why he started a fight earlier, but Captain Wonder tells him to go away. Later, the Laughing Mask tries to pair up with the Phantom Reporter as a crime-fighting duo, but hes arrested for a gangsters murder from 1940. Elsewhere, Prof. Jordan suits up as Captain Wonder and flies off into the night. 

References: 
No Rockman or Mister E. this issue. 

It's been 'days' since any of the group has seen the Black Widow. 

Rats. I was hoping we would find out the Witnesss real name. Oh well. Its not stated which prison he was in for two years, but it looks a lot like Joliet State Penitentiary, for those interested. 

A great big old thanks to wolframbane for pointing out some Golden Age appearances to me. What hes found lines up with what Ive been able to dig up, but I wont be able to see the issues myself until Masterworks are released. Ill include them in my suggestions: 

BLACK WIDOW/CLAIRE VOYANT
[MYSTIC COMICS 4/5]
[MYSTIC COMICS 5/5]
[MYSTIC COMICS 7/3]
[USA COMICS 5/2]
MARVELS 1 
[ALL SELECT COMICS 1/5]
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
*TWELVE 5

BLUE BLADE/ROY CHAMBERS 
[USA COMICS 5/5]
TWELVE 1 (1-21)
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
*TWELVE 5
TWELVE 1 (22)-BTS
TWELVE 2-BTS

CAPTAIN WONDER/PROFESSOR STEVE JORDAN 
[KID KOMICS 1]
[KID KOMICS 2]
TWELVE 2-FB-FB
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
*TWELVE 5

DYNAMIC MAN/CURT COWAN 
[MYSTIC COMICS 1/7]
[MYSTIC COMICS 2/3]
[MYSTIC COMICS 3/8]
[MYSTIC COMICS 4/8]
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
*TWELVE 5-FB
*TWELVE 5

ELECTRO/PROFESSOR PHILO ZOG 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 6/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 7/5 
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 8/5 
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 9/4]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 10/5]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 11/7]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 12/5]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 13/5]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 14/6]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 15/6]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 16/3]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 17/2]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 18/5]
[MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 19/5]
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
*TWELVE 5
(Zog is dead and does not make an appearance in this issue, his name is just there as a placeholder until we see what happens with the Electro robot)

FIERY MASK/DR. JACK CASTLE 
TWELVE 3 (16:3)-FB
TWELVE 3 (16:5-17:1)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (1-6:5)
TWELVE 3 (17:2-17:3)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (6:6-7:3)
TWELVE 3 (17:4-18:2)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (7:4-8)
TWELVE 3 (18:3)-FB
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 1 (9-10) 
[DARING MYSTERY COMICS 5] 
[DARING MYSTERY COMICS 6]
HUMAN TORCH 2/6 
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
*TWELVE 5

LAUGHING MASK/DENNIS BURTON 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 2/6
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 3/3 (as the Purple Mask)
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 4 (as the Purple Mask)
TWELVE 3 (13:3-13:4)-FB
TWELVE 3 (14:3-14:5)-FB
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4-FB
TWELVE 4
*TWELVE 5

MASTER MIND EXCELLO/EARL EVERETT 
[MYSTIC COMICS 2]
[MYSTIC COMICS 3/5]
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
*TWELVE 5

MISTER E./VICTOR J. GOLDSTEIN/VICTOR JAY 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 2/5
TWELVE 3 (7:4-7:5)-FB
TWELVE 3 (6:2)-FB
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3 (1-9)
TWELVE 3 (21:2)-FB
TWELVE 3 (21:4)-FB
TWELVE 3 (10-23)
TWELVE 4

PHANTOM REPORTER/DICK JONES 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 3/4
TWELVE 2-FB-FB
TWELVE 1 (1-21)
TWELVE 2-FB 
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
*TWELVE 5
TWELVE 1 (22)
TWELVE 2

ROCKMAN 
USA COMICS 1/4 
USA COMICS 2/5 
USA COMICS 3/5 
USA COMICS 4/6 
TWELVE 4-FB
TWELVE 1 
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4

WITNESS/ 
*TWELVE 5-FB
[MYSTIC COMICS 7/2]
[MYSTIC COMICS 8/4]
[MYSTIC COMICS 9/2]
TWELVE 1
TWELVE 2-FB
TWELVE 3
TWELVE 4
*TWELVE 5

Thanks again, wolframbane!

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jun 02, 2008 1:52 am 
By wolframbane

Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Thanks again, wolframbane!
<<<

You're very welcome!! 


Col_Fury wrote:
>>>
Rats. I was hoping we would find out the Witnesss real name. Oh well. Its not stated which prison he was in for two years, but it looks a lot like Joliet State Penitentiary, for those interested.
<<<

For some reason I was thinking Shawshank Redemption.

Ms. Zogolowski is Prof Zog's daughter eh. If he truly did die in 1945, she looks awful young to be his kid. SHe would have to be at leats in her sixties now.

I find it interesting that Laughing Mask was arrested for murder back in 1940. Pretty much the entirety of the Twelve were killer vigilantes. Although Laughing Mask did kill his opponents execution style.

			*	*	*

Thread 22

Subject: Spider-Man/Dr. Octopus: Negative Exposure 1-5

Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Negative Exposure #1
December, 2003

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Dr. Octopus(Otto Octavius), J. Jonah Jameson, Jeffery Haight

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg23
Jeff Haight looks over some of Peter Parkers front page Bugle photographs, then runs into Pete. After a chat, Jeff hears that Dr. Octopus is robbing the museum so he heads over to take some pictures. Meanwhile, Pete makes his way over and takes care of it as Spider-Man. By the time Jeff makes it back to the Bugle, Jameson tells him that hes already bought pictures from Parker. The next day, Dr. Octopus is seen in prison. 

References: 
Peter is said to not be out of college yet, so sometime before ASM 185. 

Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Negative Exposure #2
January, 2004

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Dr. Octopus(Otto Octavius), Mary Jane Watson, Robbie Robertson, Vulture, Jeffery Haight

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg21
Dr. Octopus puts a plan together in prison, involving Jeff Haight. Meanwhile, Jeff spies on a date between Peter and Mary Jane. They both separately hear of a fracas involving the Vulture and head off. After the fight Jeff heads back to the Bugle where Robbie tells him they already bought pictures from Peter. That night, Jeff visits Dr. Octopus in prison. 

References: 
Peter and Mary Jane are dating, and given this has to be before ASM 185, its now narrowed down to between ASM 143 & ASM 182. 

Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Negative Exposure #3
February, 2004

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Dr. Octopus(Otto Octavius), Mysterio(Quentin Beck), Jeffery Haight

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg2-FB: about a year ago
Dr. Octopus fights the National Guard as he tries to steal some plutonium. 
Pg3-pg22
Jeff and Dr. Octopus chat. The next day Jeff stumbles across Spider-Man and Mysterio fighting. Afterwards, he goes back to Dr. Octopus where they put together a plan to get his arms released. 

Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Negative Exposure #4
March, 2004

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Dr. Octopus(Otto Octavius), Aunt May, Jeffery Haight

Synopsis: 
Pg1-FB
Dr. Octopus uses his arms in his lab, very early in his career. 
Pg2-pg22
Jeff releases Dr. Octopus arms. As they make their way across town, Peter excuses himself from Aunt May and goes to fight them. The arms defeat Spider-Man and meet with Dr. Octopus. 

References: 
Dr. Octopus is using the manual controls for his arms in the FlashBack, and hes in his green jumpsuit. 

Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Negative Exposure #5
April, 2004

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Dr. Octopus(Otto Octavius), Jeffery Haight

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg23
Spider-Man beats up Dr. Octopus. Jeff is thrown in jail, but he finally gets a photo of his on the front page. Dr. Octopus is also thrown in prison. 

References: 
So, after ASM 143 & before ASM 182 for Spider-Man and Mary Jane. This has to be after ASM 159 for Dr. Octopus, as hes tied up between ASM 131 & ASM 152, thanks to ASM 157-FB. That wouldnt stop him from trying to steal some plutonium, though

Some placement suggestions: 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER

ASM 170
*SM/DO: NE 1
*SM/DO: NE 2
*SM/DO: NE 3
*SM/DO: NE 4
*SM/DO: NE 5
M/TU@ 1


DOCTOR OCTOPUS/OTTO OCTAVIUS
...
DEF2 10
*SM/DO: NE 4-FB
ASM 11

ASM 131
ASM 157-FB
*SM/DO: NE 3-FB
ASM 152
ASM 154
ASM 156
ASM 157
ASM 158
ASM 159
*SM/DO: NE 1
*SM/DO: NE 2
*SM/DO: NE 3
*SM/DO: NE 4
*SM/DO: NE 5
ASM@ 13


MYSTERIO/QUENTIN BECK/"NICHOLAS MACABE" 

ASM 66
ASM 67
*SM/DO: NE 3
ASM 198-FB
ASM 193


VULTURE/ADRIAN TOOMES 

PPTSS 5
*SM/DO: NE 2
PPTSS 44


PARKER, MAY REILLY

ASM 167
*SM/DO: NE 4
PPTSS 7


WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE

ASM 170
*SM/DO: NE 2
PPTSS 7


ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE"

ASM 167
*SM/DO: NE 2
M/TU 56-BTS


JAMESON, J. JONAH

ASM 169
*SM/DO: NE 1
M/TU 56


-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Mar 08, 2008 11:29 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Fury. Your placement of the flashback in issue #3 does indeed put it "about a year" before the main story.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jun 01, 2008 11:06 pm 
By newtron

paul b., what dates do you have for the time period around asm 170 and the flashback placement around asm 152? what about spidey's next appearance, in m/tu@ 1? i just got through reading this series and i think i might have some slightly different placement suggestions (i'm still trying to work out the details). i think your dates might help me.

thanks!

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Jun 02, 2008 6:58 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

newtron wrote:
>>>
paul b., what dates do you have for the time period around asm 170 and the flashback placement around asm 152? what about spidey's next appearance, in m/tu@ 1?
<<<

I have ASM 152 in early April of Peter Parker's fifth undergraduate year of college (Year 9). ASM 170 is in early January of Peter's final undergraduate year of college (Year 10). M/TU@ 1 occurs a little later that January.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jun 03, 2008 12:21 am 
By newtron

Thanks Paul!

Main story placement:

One of the biggest problems I see with the placement above is that issues #2-5 clearly have very warm weather. In issue #2, for example, MJ is shown in a tanktop and shorts, many others are in summery clothes, and the fountain in Washington Square Park is on. The same holds true through to #5. By contrast, #1 shows Pete wearing a hooded sweatshirt over a t-shirt, a number of museum patrons wearing jackets, and most people out in the street in jackets, long-sleeve shirts, and sweaters. Nobody is wearing shorts that I can see.

This difference led me to suspect that some time had passed between #1 and #2, and this is supported by a few things:

- in #2 a reference is made to Ock being moved for harming another prisoner, indicating that he hasn't just arrived

- in #2, Ock receives Haight's photo book - something that presumably wasn't already at Riker's and would also 
presumably take some time to get

- in #2, when he gives Ock that photo book, Vernon has to ask/clarify that Haight is the guy who was there at the fight with Spider-Man, possibly indicating that enough time has passed since the initial conversation about it (in #1) for Vernon to get foggy on the details

- in #2, Anna says to Haight: "you're not still upset the bugle didn't run your pictures of doc ock are you?", possibly implying that it's been awhile since this happened and that she might think enough time has passed for him to get over it

- in #2, Haight says to a cop at the hostage scene: "Charlie, it's me. I gave you those Knicks tickets at the Met last--" and he's then cut off by the cop. This indicates to me that Brian K. Vaughan, rather than just having him finish "last night", wanted to leave the amount of time between issues 1 and 2 indeterminate. It could be "last week", "last month", etc.

- in #3, Ock says "you have no idea how much comfort these photographs have given me during my unfortunate incarceration", implying that he's been incarcerated for some non-trivial length of time

- in #4, Pete needs an excuse to get away from Aunt May and says: "I forgot to drop off my class choices with the office registrar." If we're assuming there's a grain of truth there, and that he's talking about summer classes, it makes more sense for him to need to do this in early spring rather than January

Some of these are small and could be seen as insignificant by themselves, but I think it all adds up to there being some time between the first two issues. I would suggest that issues 2-5 occur between M/TU 57 and NO 12, in early spring.

There are two small problems with this. First, Negative Exposure #1 shows some green leaves on trees outside. I think we can explain this by saying that some warm (non-freezing, but still not really warm) air came in, which melted all the snow seen in some of Spidey's last few appearances, and triggered some growth in the plants.

The second problem is that in #3, when fighting Mysterio, Spidey says "first it was Doc Ock and then the Vulture. You're like celebrity deaths, you always come in threes". This is more problematic, as it really seems like he means they've all come one after the other. My take would be to assume he's talking about public disturbances in Manhattan, as all his intervening battles have either been more private affairs (Electro & Blizzard blackmailing the Bugle, Morbius/Empathoid attacking Spidey) or outside of the city (in New Mexico and on the moon, specifically).

Flashback:

I don't think there's anything wrong with where Col_Fury has Ock's flashback from "about a year ago", but if we move it slightly we could have an elegant explanation for the modern costume seen both in the main story and this flashback.

At the end of ASM 159 Ock is free. If we say the flashback occurs almost immediately after that, it's about 8 months before Haight's "about a year ago" comment. This isn't the best approximation of a year, but since Ock isn't seen between ASM 159 and Negative Exposure 1, it allows to say that he's trying out a new costume for those 8 months, explaining the new duds.

We know the book isn't trying to pretend the classic duds don't exist, because there's another flashback (in #4) to Ock's early career that shows them. Also, in #5 Spidey says to Ock "your new look is actually worse than your old...bowl-cut-and-jumpsuit ensemble" -- he's not only acknowledging that it is a different outfit, but also that it's new since the last time they met (ASM 159).

Anyway, with this flashback placement we don't have to assume an art/editorial "error", or assume Ock switching back and forth between costumes.

Suggested Placement:

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
...
ASM 170
*SM/DO: NE 1
M/TU@ 1
M/TU 53
M/TU 54
M/TU 55
M/TU 56
PPTSS 6
PPTSS 7
PPTSS 8
M/TU 57
*SM/DO: NE 2
*SM/DO: NE 3
*SM/DO: NE 4
*SM/DO: NE 5
NO 12
...

DOCTOR OCTOPUS/OTTO OCTAVIUS
...
DEF2 10
*SM/DO: NE 4-FB
ASM 11

ASM 159
*SM/DO: NE 3-FB
*SM/DO: NE 1
*SM/DO: NE 2
*SM/DO: NE 3
*SM/DO: NE 4
*SM/DO: NE 5
ASM@ 13


WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE

PPTSS 7?
*SM/DO: NE 2
M/TU 58


ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE"

M/TU 56-BTS
*SM/DO: NE 2
M/TU 63-BTS?


for the rest, I agree with Col_Fury's placements.

Other notes:

For my own reading, I had placed the first Superman/Spider-Man adventure immediately following ASM 170 because it was the first largish break in the first MU winter following its publication. Upon reading Negative Exposure 1, I was struck that at basically the exact same time, Doc Ock was robbing the Metropolitan Museum of art in both issues. As Haight says in Negative Exposure 1, it's "weird, Ock's crimes are usually science-related." Could this not be a coincidence? Is Ock's robbery in Negative Exposure 1 maybe the non-merged universe equivalent event of the robbery in Superman vs the Amazing Spider-Man?

Also, some people in the forum archives were thrown by the comment about Peter being seen with a blonde. I think with these placements the blonde was probably Liz Allen, and Pete was probably helping her with wedding preparations, just as MJ had been doing a few issues earlier (I can't remember which one specifically).

Sorry this thing was so long-winded, I just hope it was helpful.

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Thread 23

Subject: Marvel: The Lost Generation #12-1

Jun 04, 2008 12:13 am 
wolframbane

I am currently working on a project to fully index various Marvel titles. Below is the link for my full analysis of the MARVEL: THE LOST GENERATION series. Thanks to Paul Bourcier, Col_Fury, Enda and everyone else who contributed.

http://www.geocities.com/marvelindex/lostgenerationindex.html

Here are my placement suggestions for most of the characters within the series. Most have already been added to the MCP, but I have added a few characters and annotated a few changes and updates where necessary. I have expanded some flashbacks with page and panel notations. I have also added some of the character placement notes regarding MARVEL SAGA 1 from:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3435

At the end I have also included a number of historical characters that occurred in real-time during the series (ie Nixon in the 70s), but who also appeared in topical appearances during 1950-80s published comics. Until I figure ut how to integrate the topical and non-topical appearances, I have kept them separate.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3551&p=22495

ANT-MAN/DR. HENRY J. PYM
A 227-FB
TTA 44-FB ~ WCA2 33-FB
*ST 75/4 (moved, he was a lab assistant working with Albert Poole on a project to create a growth serum (who finally giving it up to build a robot) before he worked on Pym Particles)
M/:LG 12
*M/SAGA 1 (4:6) 
{TTA 27-FB}
...

AXIS/ 
M/:LG 6

*BATOR, ULAN (new addition)
{RED RAVEN COMICS 1/7}

BEY, JAMEEL (changed name from Jameel, last name from Marvel Atlas)
M/:LG 9

BLACK FOX/ROBERT W. PAINE
*M/:LG 5 (12:3-13:3)-FB
M/:LG 2
*M/:LG 8 (8:4-9:1, 9:3)-FB
M/:LG 3
M/:LG 4
M/:LG 5
M/:LG 6
M/:LG 7
M/:LG 8
M/:LG 9
*M/:LG 1 (11-21)-FB (lettercol in M/:LG 1 places this between issues 10 and 11, not after 12)
M/:LG 11
{M/:LG 12}

*BLACKJACK II/ (changed to II because of earlier Blackjack in HUMAN TORCH COMICS 4/2)
M/:LG 2
M/:LG 6
{M/:LG 9}

BLOODSTONE, ULYSSES
...
M/U 7
M/:LG 2
{M/PRS 1}
...

BYRRAH/ [ATLANTEAN]
...
SAGASM 5-FB
M/:LG 3
{TTA 90}
...

CAPTAIN AMERICA IV/STEVE ROGERS II
...
CA 155-FB
*M/:LG 1 (2:3-10:4)-FB
{CA 153}
...

CAPTAIN HIP/FRED MACRAE/"HIPSTER" (added Hipster)
M/:LG 3
M/:LG 5
M/:LG 8
M/:LG 9
{M/:LG 10}

CARMODY, MARY
*{RED RAVEN COMICS 1/7} ~ M/:LG 9 (3:3-5)-FB (changed RED RAVEN 9 to RED RAVEN 1/7)
M/:LG 9

*CHIMERA/COMMANDER ZUHN/"WINGET" (also used human name of Winget)
*M/:LG 4 (1-3:6)-FB
*M/:LG 4 (18:4-19:4)-FB
*M/:LG 2 (had an appearance in this issue)
M/:LG 4

DIABLO
...
AF 21-FB
M/:LG 8
FF 30
...

DOCTOR DRUID/ANTHONY LUDGATE/"ANTHONY DRUID" 
...
M/U 7
M/:LG 2
{H2 209}
...

DOCTOR MIME 
M/:LG 11

DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN STRANGE 
...
DSDDGN-FB
M/:LG 8
M/:LG 12
*M/SAGA 1 (5:3) 
{ST 110/3}
...

*DORREK VII, EMPEROR [SKRULL] (added Emperor and VII)
M/:LG 11-FB
{FF 18}
...

EFFIGY/LT. VELMAX/"JACOB SCOTT" [SKRULL]
*M/:LG 4 (1-3:6)-FB
*M/:LG 4 (18:4-19:4)-FB
*M/:LG 1 (2:3-10:4)-FB
M/:LG 2
M/:LG 3
M/:LG 4
M/:LG 5
M/:LG 6
M/:LG 7
M/:LG 9
M/:LG 10
M/:LG 11
{M/:LG 12}

ETERNAL BRAIN/PROFESSOR WILLIAM CARMODY
*{RED RAVEN COMICS 1/7} ~ M/:LG 9 (3:3-5)-FB (changed RED RAVEN 9 to RED RAVEN 1/7)
M/:LG 9
M/:LG 10
M/:LG 11
{M/:LG 12}

FANDRAL
...
T 416/2
M/:LG 5
M/SH3 15/3
...

FIREFALL II 
M/:LG 6
M/:LG 11
{M/:LG 12}

*FITZPATRICK, JIM (new addition)
{RED RAVEN COMICS 1/7} ~ M/:LG 9 (3:3-5)-FB
M/:LG 9

*FITZWILLIAM DARE, ROSSALYN (new addition)
M/:LG 7

FLATIRON/RUSSELL 
M/:LG 7
M/:LG 9
{M/:LG 12}

*FRANK (new addition, resembles Frankenstein Monster)
M/:LG 5

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH
...
NF3 38-FB
M/:LG 9
M/:LG 10
W/NF-FB
...

*GADFLY/T. RUTH "TRUTH" MACRAE (changed Ruth MacRae to full name)
*M/:LG 5-BTS (mother reveals she is pregnant, and her pregnancy is why Rumor could control her)
M/:LG 8
M/:LG 9
M/:LG 10
M/:LG 11
{M/:LG 12}

HITLER, ADOLF
...
SGTF 35
GSINV 2
*M/:LG 5 (12:3-13:3)-FB (Col_Fury suggested placement here, uncertain if it is currently before or after GSINV 2)
SGTF 41
...

HOGUN
...
T 474-FB
M/:LG 5
M/SH3 15/3
...

HOWLER/LUKE GARROW 
M/:LG 4
{M/:LG 6}

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER
...
H2 -1-FB
M/:LG 12
*M/SAGA 1 (4:5)
W/H 3-FB
H3 15-FB
{H 1}
...

HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM
...
FF 2
*M/:LG 1-BTS (appears in newspaper photograph anout FF 2)
FF 3
...
WTS 6
FF 99
M/:LG 7
FF 99
*FF 99 ~ M/:LG 7 (5-11, 13-21)
FF 99
FF 100
...

IKARIS/IKE HARRIS [ETERNAL]
...
X:HY 21
M/:LG 1
{E 1}
...

INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUE STORM RICHARDS 
...
FF 11-FB
M/:LG 12
TG 10-FB
...
FF 2
*M/:LG 1-BTS (appears in newspaper photograph anout FF 2)
FF 3
...
FF 99
WTS 5
M/:LG 7
FF 99
...

JAMESON, J. JONAH 
...
*ASM 140 (10)-FB (added pg number)
*M/:LG 1-BTS (wrote newspaper article about FF)
UTSM 12-FB
...

*KATYUSHA/ANYA (added first name)
M/:LG 6
M/:LG 7
*{M/:LG 12} (first actual appearance, seen briefly on page 3)

*KHADIJAH, DR. (added Dr.)
M/:LG 9

*KNIGHT TEMPLAR/IAN FITZWILLIAM DARE (changed from Templar to Knight Templar, his full name)
M/:LG 7
{M/:LG 12}

KRANG [ATLANTEAN]
SAGASM 1-FB
SAGASM 5-FB
M/:LG 3
{FF@ 1}
...

KRO [DEVIANT] 
...
E:HEROD-FB
M/:LG 10
{E 1}
...

*LIBERTY GIRL/BEVERLY "BEV" (full first name from OHOTMU:Teams)
M/:LG 2
M/:LG 3
{M/:LG 4}

LOCKE, DR. ALEXANDER M. 
*M/:LG 7 (12:4)-FB (appears in montage of early photos)
M/:LG 8
M/:LG 7
M/:LG 6
M/:LG 2
M/:LG 1

LOCKE, DR. CASSANDRA 
*M/:LG 7 (12:4)-FB (appears in montage of early photos)
ASM2 16
{M/:LG 12}
M/:LG 10
M/:LG 9
M/:LG 8
M/:LG 4
*M/:LG 7 (1-4)
*M/:LG 7 (5-11, 13-21) ~ FF 99-BTS
*M/:LG 3 (14:2)
*M/:LG 7 (22) ~ M/:LG 3 (14:3-15:1)
*M/:LG 3 (15-22)
*M/:LG 1 (2:3-10:4)-FB (was not listed originally as a FB)

MAKKARI/MIKE KHARY/"INVISIBLE MAN"/"ADAM CLAYTON"/"JAKE CURTISS"/"MICHAEL CURRY"/"MAJOR MERCURY"/HURRICANE [ETERNAL]
...
M/U 7
M/:LG 2
M/:LG 5
*M/:LG 12-BTS (not depicted, OHOTMU:Golden Age reveals he was there)
E 5
...

MAKO 
M/:LG 3
{M/:LG 12}

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
...
FF3 5-FB
M/:LG 11
FF3 18-FB
...
BFF:RR 3-FB
M/:LG 12
NW 4-FB
...
FF 2
*M/:LG 1-BTS (appears in newspaper photograph anout FF 2)
FF 3
...
FF 99
M/:LG 7
FF 99
...

MR. JUSTICE/TIMOTHY CARNEY/"KID JUSTICE" (added Kid Justice)
M/:LG 3
M/:LG 4
M/:LG 5
M/:LG 6
M/:LG 7
*M/:LG 9 (3:3-5)-FB
M/:LG 9
*M/:LG 1 (11-21)-FB (lettercol in M/:LG 1 places this between issues 10 and 11, not after 12)
M/:LG 11
{M/:LG 12}

MORPH 
M/:LG 10

NAMORA/AQUARIA NAUTICA NEPTUNIA [ATLANTEAN]
...
CV2 1
M/:LG 2
{SUB-M 33-FB}
N 20-FB
M/:LG 3
SUB-M 51-FB
...

NIGHTINGALE/ 
M/:LG 2
M/:LG 3
M/:LG 4
M/:LG 6
M/:LG 9
{M/:LG 12}

NOCTURNE/ 
*M/:LG 8 (16:2-5)-FB
M/:LG 7
*M/:LG (8:4-9:1, 9:3)-FB-BTS
M/:LG 8
M/:LG 11
{M/:LG 12}

*NOMAD III/JACK MONROE/"BUCKY III" (added Bucky III)
...
CA 155-FB
*M/:LG 1 (2:3-10:4)-FB
{CA 153}
...

ODIN
...
BP3 47
M/:LG 5
M/SH3 15/3
...

*OMEGA-20, EUGENE "GENE" (full name was Eugene Omega-20 from M/:LG 1, not simply Omega-20 or Eugene)
M/:LG 7
M/:LG 6
M/:LG 2
M/:LG 1

*OXBOW/SAM MATONABBE (added real name)
M/:LG 4
M/:LG 5
M/:LG 6
M/:LG 7
M/:LG 8-BTS
M/:LG 9
M/:LG 10
{M/:LG 12}

*PEG-LEG MARTIN (new addition)
{RED RAVEN COMICS 1/7}

PIXIE [ETERNAL]
M/:LG 3
M/:LG 4
M/:LG 5
M/:LG 6
M/:LG 7
M/:LG 8
M/:LG 9
M/:LG 10
*M/:LG 1 (11-21)-FB (lettercol in M/:LG 1 places this between issues 10 and 11, not after 12)
M/:LG 11
{M/:LG 12}
M/:LG 1
X:HY 16
X:HY 21[/b] (removed post-X:HY 21 appearances, they are from an alternate future version)

*PIXIE of EARTH-700 [ETERNAL] (new addition)
M/:LG 7
M/:LG 6
M/:LG 1

POSITRON/"RONNIE" 
M/:LG 6
M/:LG 9
{M/:LG 12}

*RAPUNZEL/KORYA (revealed as Skrull spy in X:HY 16, name Korya revealed in Marvel Encyclopedia 6)
M/:LG 10
{M/:LG 11}
X:HY 16-FB
*M/:LG 12 (first actual appearance, but as a dead body)
X:HY 16 (dead body)

REBOUND/ 
M/:LG 5

REFLEX/ 
M/:LG 7
M/:LG 9
*{M/:LG 12} (appeared briefly in issue)

RIOT-ACT/ 
M/:LG 12

*ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. "THUNDERBOLT"
H2 291-FB
*XFOR -1-FB (moved, a younger Lt. Ross served with Thunderbird's father)
*H3 81 (added, a younger Major Ross clears young Bruce Banner of charges for attempting to blow up his school)
*H2 -1-FB (moved placement, Ross hires Bruce for the Gamma project)
*M/:LG 12 (Ross and Banner working together)
*M/SAGA 1 (4:5) (Ross and Banner working together, Betty present)
H3 15-FB
{H 1}
...

RUMOR/ 
M/:LG 5 (12:3-13:3)-FB
M/:LG 5

*SCIMITAR (note that Scimitar from IF 5 should now be Scimitar II)
M/:LG 9

SCYTHE/ 
M/:LG 2
{M/:LG 6}

*SQUIRE/FITZWILLIAM DARE (added last name, his father was Ian Fitzwillaim Dare)
M/:LG 12

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE
...
CV 2-FB
*M/:LG 3 (14:2)
*M/:LG 7 (22) ~ M/:LG 3 (14:3-15:1)
*M/:LG 3 (15-22)
SUB-M2 1-FB
...

SUNSHINE/AUTUMN MACRAE 
M/:LG 5
M/:LG 8
M/:LG 9
{M/:LG 10}

THING/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM
...
TG 2-FB
M/:LG 11
TG 10-FB
...
FF 2
*M/:LG 1-BTS (appears in newspaper photograph anout FF 2)
FF 3
...
FF 99
M/:LG 7
FF 99
...

THOR
...
VENUS 13/4
M/:LG 5
M/SH3 15/3
...

TYPHOON/
M/:LG 6

UATU 
...
CV 2-FB
M/:LG 12
FF 204-FB
...

VALKYRIE II/BRUNNHILDE/SISTER BARBARA DENTON NORRISS/GENEVIEVE CROSS 
DEF 108-FB
*M/:LG 5 (as Brunnhilde was in stasis at this time, this may not be her but another given her powers by Enchantress)
{H2 142}
...

VENUS [NAIAD]
...
AOATLAS 1-FB
M/:LG 5
M/VS 1/3
...

VOLSTAG
...
M/SH3 15/2-FB
M/:LG 5
M/SH3 15/3
...

VON VOLTZMANN, FRITZ/"KARL VON HORSTBADEN"
*M/:LG 3 (14:2)
*M/:LG 7 (22)-BTS ~ M/:LG 3 (14:3-15:1)
*M/:LG 3 (15-22)
{ST 161}
...

*VULCAN II/ (changed to II as Hephastus the Greek god preceeds him)
M/:LG 7

VYRRA 
N 20-FB
M/:LG 3
N 20-FB
...

WALKABOUT 
M/:LG 10
M/:LG 11
{M/:LG 12}

*WOODWARD, BOB (new addition)
M/:LG 7

*YANKEE CLIPPER II/PATRICK "PAT" CARNEY (changed to II as a prior Yankee Clipper was active in WWII in UX 215)
*M/:LG 1 (2:3-10:4)-FB
M/:LG 2
M/:LG 3
{M/:LG 4}
*M/:LG 1 (11-21)-FB
M/:LG 1

*YELLOW CLAW/TZING JAO/"BHAGWAN SRI ANANDA"
...
CA 166-FB
*M/:LG 3 (14:2)
*M/:LG 7 (22) ~ M/:LG 3 (14:3-15:1)
*M/:LG 3 (15-22)
{CA 164}
...

*YETI/KALIBAN (real name of Kaliban given in FF Index)
M/:LG 10
M/:LG 11
*M/:LG 12 (FF 99 was his first appearance, not M/:LG 12)
X:HY 16-FB
*FF 99 ~ M/:LG 7 (5-11, 13-21) (FF 99 was his first appearance, not M/:LG 12)
X:HY 16-FB-BTS
X:HY 16
FF 117

*ZAFINA, PRINCESS (changed from Princess Zafina)
M/:LG 9

ZANKOR/"JAY STEVENSON"
*M/:LG 11 (5:4-5:5)-FB
*M/:LG 11 (9:4-10:4)-FB
*M/:LG 11 (14:3)-FB
M/:LG 11

ZAWADI 
...
M/U 7
M/:LG 2

*ZORN, AMBASSADOR (added title)
M/:LG 8
*M/:LG 12 (added appearance)



ARMSTRONG, NEIL ALDEN (TOPICAL)
FF 98
*AT 1/2-FB (new appearance)

*ARMSTRONG, NEIL ALDEN (NON-TOPICAL) (new addition)
M/:LG 6

KENNEDY, JOHN FITZGERALD (TOPICAL)
CS 14
WI? 4
{FF 17}
JIM 96
TOS 41
TOS 43

*KENNEDY, JOHN FITZGERALD (NON-TOPICAL) (new addition)
CS 14
WI? 4
M/:LG 3-BTS
M/:LG 4-BTS

NIXON, RICHARD MILHOUS (TOPICAL)
H2 119
A 82
FF 103
FF 104
H2 139
A 92-BTS
AT 1/2
SUB-M 44-BTS
CA 144
SUB-M 47-BTS
T 187
H2 147
FF 123
H2 152
A 101-BTS
H2 174

*NIXON, RICHARD MILHOUS (NON-TOPICAL) (new addition)
M/PRM 37
M/:LG 7

*OSWALD, LEE HARVEY (new addition)
M/:LG 4
W2 49-FB

*OSWALD, MARINA (new addition)
M/:LG 4

			*	*	*

Jun 04, 2008 8:24 am 
By ADMINISTRATOR

Flashbacks are not eligible for concurrent ("~") appearances.

			*	*	*

Thread 24

Subject: Amazing Spider-Man Annual 28

May 02, 2008 12:23 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Amazing Spider-Man Annual #28
1994

Appearances: 
Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Carnage(Cletus Kasady)

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg25
Carnage is being transported and escapes. Luckily, Spider-Man was following with a sonic gun, but because he spends so much time talking, Carnage destroys it and escapes. He takes off to find his old buddy Bentine to kill him. Spider-Man follows and eventually finds him, and with Bentines help he defeats Carnage. 

References: 
Theres a FlashBack to Cletus childhood with his buddy Bentine at a summer camp.(pg15-pg16) Cletus sets off some fireworks in the girls cabin and Bentine takes the heat for it. This would precede V: CU 3-FB, where Cletus has moved on from pranks to murder. 

This story follows Maximum Carnage. 

Amazing Spider-Man Annual #28/2

Appearances: 
Cloak & Dagger

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8
Cloak & Dagger bust up a drug ring, but Cloak keeps making stupid mistakes. They have a chat about whats bugging him, and he says its because of the events in Web of Spider-Man 101 & Spider-Man 37. He promises to do better next time. 

Amazing Spider-Man Annual #28/3

Appearances: 
Joe Smith

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg8
Joe Smith is sick of his neighborhood being run over by drug dealers, so he puts his suit on even though he doesnt have powers anymore. He doesnt fare very well, but his fellow neighbors chip in and drive the dealers away. 

References: 
Theres a Flashback to show what Joes been up to since CA 246, namely attending his court date. 

Amazing Spider-Man Annual #28/4

Appearances: 
Rhino, his mom, his niece

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg9
The Rhinos moms apartment has been looted and his nieces locket has been stolen, so he suits up and beats up some hoodlums to get the locket back. When he returns he shows his mom the money he got from the crooks and she kicks him out of the apartment saying she doesnt want his blood money. 

Some placement suggestions: 

CARNAGE/CLETUS KASADY
*ASM@ 28-FB
V:CU 3-FB
V:CU 1-FB

ASMU 2
*ASM@ 28
WOSM 117


CLOAK/TYRONE JOHNSON

PPTSS 203
*ASM@ 28/2
NW 35


DAGGER/TANDY BOWEN

PPTSS 203
*ASM@ 28/2
NW 35


RHINO/ALEXSEI MIKHAILOVICH SYTSEVICH/"ALEX O'HIRN"

ASMU 4/3
NO2 10
*ASM@ 28/4
H2 435


SMITH, JOE 
ASM 38
WTS 1-BTS
WTS 2
WTS 3
CA 246-FB
CA 246
*ASM@ 28/3-FB
*ASM@ 28/3
SM:MM 1
SM:MM 2
SM:MM 3

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER

SM/XF:SG 3
*ASM@ 28
ASM 386


-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jun 04, 2008 11:02 am 
By cweed4

Having just read this issue I was glad to find this review to save me the trouble of a full analysis. However, I would suggest a couple adjustments to the entries for Carnage and Spidey. 

The FB to Cletus's childhood at summer camp depict him at a young age (8-12 yrs old?). It is mentioned though that he was sent there by social services. This would suggest he is under state care at this point. (From S-M 36-FB we learned he was eventually living at Saint Estes Home for Boys.) But, in V:CU 1-FB, a young Cletus is described as living at home w/ mom+dad (and the family's dead dog  ). So, it would seem that ASM@ 28-FB should have occurred between these other FB's instead of prior to the latter. The depiction of his age and actions could suggest otherwise, but this interpretation would imply-

CARNAGE/CLETUS KASADY 
V:CU 3-FB
V:CU 1-FB
**ASM@ 28-FB**
S-M 36-FB
ASM 361-FB-BTS
{ASM 344}
ASM 345

ASMU 2
**ASM@ 28**
WOSM 117


The issue placement for Carnage fits w/ the idea that he has been at the Vault since Maximum Carnage. The story in ASM@ 28 suggest he is being transferred from the Vault. By his next appearance (WOSM 117) he has been moved to Ravencroft. This issue could be considered a failed first attempt to achieve that move. However, the Ravencroft facility is still being restructured after Maximum Carnage (under the leadership of Dr. Kafka) until WOSM@ 10. The new facility passes a security test from Shreik during that issue and would then seem ready for business. (There is a subplot started from WOSM 110 involving Warrant and not wanting Kafka's changes implemented to accept such prisoner rehab cases...) Given this, I would suggest instead-

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
WOSM@ 10
**ASM@ 28**
S-M 46


Other inconsequential appearances from these stories:

BRENTINE, BILLY (Cletus's childhood friend)
**ASM@ 28-FB**
**ASM@ 28**

ASM@ 28- Vault doctors Conrad&Sarah, Billy's co-worker Sally

ASM@ 28/3- Julia Trainor (Joe's co-worker/romantic interest?)

ASM@ 28/4- Alexa (Rhino's niece)

			*	*	*

Thread 25

Subject: Wolverine: Dangerous Games 1

Jun 07, 2008 4:36 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine: Dangerous Games #1
August, 2008

Appearances: 
Wolverine, Sir Damien Spencer

Synopsis: 
Pg1: Louisiana
Wolverine sneaks up on a guy on a hovercart, hes followed by dogs. 
Pg2-pg3-FB: two days ago
Wandering around New Orleans, Wolverine gets into a bar fight and is given a ride by a helpful stranger. The stranger drops him off at a camp full of hippies protesting fox hunting. 
Pg4
Wolverine kicks some dogs. 
Pg5-FB: one day ago
Wolverine hangs out with some hippies! 
Pg6-FB: this morning
The foxhunting group arrives and pisses off Wolverine, getting him revved up to teach them a lesson. 
Pg7
Wolverine fights some dogs and is shot at by the guy on the hovercraft. 
Pg8-pg9-FB: this morning
Wolverine starts to teach the foxhunters a lesson! 
Pg10
Wolverine knocks the guy off his hovercart, but is shot full of tranquilizers. 
Pg11-pg12-FB: earlier
Wolverine drives off the foxhunters, having taught them a lesson. The hippies celebrate and Wolverine is given some moonshine that tastes like crap. He wanders off to find some beer. 
Pg13
Groggy from the tranquilizers, Wolverine makes his way back to the hippie camp. 
Pg14-pg15-FB: earlier
Wolverine has found a bar and is approached by Sir Damien Spencer, who reveals hes going to hunt him. Hes also been given a trackable compound by one of the hippies. 
Pg16
Wolverine vomits on the hippie, sharing the tracking scent to the dogs will chase someone else. 
Pg17-pg18-FB: earlier
Sir Damien reveals he has a suit of armor and a cool hovercart. The chase is on!
Pg19
The dogs attack the hippie while Wolverine watches. 
Pg20-pg21-FB: just before pg1
Wolverine changes into his suit. 
Pg22
Wolverine attacks Sir Damien. 

References: 
Full moon over Louisiana, green grass and leaves. 

Wolverines in his astonishing suit, this could really go anywhere in his current chronology. 

Wolverine: Dangerous Games #1/2

Appearances: 
Wolverine, some monks, some gangsters

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg10: Bangkok, Thailand
Wolverine hangs out at a Buddhist temple to put his wild side away. Hes just helped an old monk buddy of his scare off some gangsters. He meets a lady and goes back to her place, but when things get a bit too racy he heads back to the temple to clear his head. He discovers that all the monks are dead, killed by gangsters. His buddy tells him violence isnt the answer, but Wolverine kills the gangsters after his buddy dies. He heads back to the ladys place, who turns out to be the gangsters boss, and kills her, too. 

References: 
Green grass and leaves in Bangkok, rainy at night. 

Wolverine mentions that its an Ugly few weeks behind him. Im sure this is intended to mean that hes been in Bangkok for a few weeks. However, I think this works nicely as an epilogue to the Enemy of the State/Agent of SHIELD arc from a few years back. Wolverine is here to clear his head and that seems to be an appropriate time for him to need some head clearing, having spent 'six weeks' on a Hydra hunt. If we place it there, I think we can safely fudge the few weeks reference.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 26

Subject: Punisher: Little Black Book 1

Jun 12, 2008 9:41 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Punisher: Little Black Book #1
August, 2008

Appearances: 
Punisher(Frank Castle)

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg4pn2: one night
Posing as a chauffeur, the Punisher drives a woman named Vette to a party. 
Pg4pn3-pg4pn4-FB: 20 years ago?
Vettes dad is killed. Later, she looks at his headstone. 
Pg4pn5(of 6)-pg9pn1(of 6): same night as pg4pn2
The Punisher and Vette go to a party. Some bouncers almost recognize the Punisher, but his brilliant mustache disguise fools them. 
Pg9pn2-pg11pn3-FB: earlier that day
After getting dressed, the Punisher convinces Vette to get him into a party by showing her client list to her. He wants to take care of Carlos Ramirez, a drug lord and cop killer. When she realizes she has no choice, she agrees. 
Pg11pn4(of 6)-pg32
Vette distracts Carlos while the Punisher takes care of the bouncers. The Punisher then takes care of Carlos with lots of bullets. The two make their way out of the party. The Punisher shoots more bouncers while Vette goes outside and tries to steal a car. It doesnt work and shes assaulted, but the Punisher comes out and kills her attackers. Her gives her back her client list and leaves. 

References:
Green leaves, no weather to speak of. 

Vette has been looking for her client list for a week. Therefore, the Punisher has been seeing for at least that long. So yeah, theres that. 

This could really go anywhere for the Punisher, so Ill say before issue 50 or after the current arc finishes up.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jun 13, 2008 9:01 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Fury! I think I'll place this after the current PUN7 arc, at least for now.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Thread 27

Subject: Spider-Man Family v2 #9

Jun 13, 2008 8:18 pm 
By michaelyuri

Spider-Man Family v2 #9

Story #1: The Guy Who Turns Into the Hulk
Writer: Paul Tobin
Artist: Derec Aucoin

Characters Appearing:
Doctor Octopus, Hulk, Marvel Girl, Spider-Man

Synopsis:
Marvel Girl (Jean Grey), Spider-Man, and Bruce Banner are hanging out in New York. We learn through dialogue and a flashback that Banner and Marvel Girl were aboard the SHIELD Helicarrier when a UFO was sighted. Fury didn't want to pursue it with Banner on board, so he released Banner into Marvel Girl's custody and contacted Spider-Man to help her out.

They keep stumbling into criminal activity, which Spider-Man and Marvel Girl need to deal with while keeping Banner out of the way. Spider-Man keeps hearing news reports about Doctor Octopus going on a rampage, but he can't respond because he's trying to keep Banner out of trouble. Finally, when they learn that Doc Ock has taken a hostage, they go to stop him, telling Banner to stay out of the way.

Doc Ock defeats Spider-Man and Marvel Girl. Banner learns that the reason he's been staying so calm is that SHIELD injected him with a dampening agent. This makes him angry, and after being grabbed by Doc Ock, Banner turns into the Hulk and smashes him. The Hulk leaps off into the distance and then the police arrive to haul off Doctor Octopus.

Flashback:
Nick Fury, Hulk

Continuity Notes:
I don't see any glaringly obvious reasons why this couldn't be canon, but I don't know how it lines up with the different characters' chronologies. The entire story takes place over a few hours, and the flashback happens immediately before the main story. Here are some placement clues that I noticed:

Marvel Girl is wearing her classic green dress with yellow mask, gloves, and boots. She was on board the SHIELD helicarrier (no explanation given) before the story began.

Spider-Man is in his standard Red & Blue (no underarm webs).

Banner is wearing a tweed jacket and bowtie. The Hulk has no dialogue, but it's pretty clear that this is the Savage Hulk given the way everyone is terrified of Banner transforming. Sometime before the story began, Banner had been captured by Shield agents and was being held for observation.

Doctor Octopus is taken away by the police at the end of the story.

It appears to be summer time (or at least relatively warm weather). The trees are green and leafy and several random people are shown wearing short sleeves.

------------------------------

Story #2: Identity
Writer: Tony Lee
Penciler: Ramon Bachs

Characters Appearing:
Aunt May, Spider Man

Synopsis:
Peter Parker is at the corner grocery, when someone dressed as Spider-Man enters. Peter learns that "Spider-Man" has been visiting every night for the last month and they've been giving him free food.

Peter follows the imposter and learns that its actually a homeless kid. He goes home, and after a brief talk with Aunt May he decides to look for the kid and find out his story. Spider-Man finds the kid being beaten by thugs in an alley. He starts to help, but gets hit from behind and knocked down. The kid jumps in to help him and Spider-Man scares the thugs away. Spider-Man tells the kid he has a plan to help him out.

The next night Peter arrives at the grocery where the kid is now working stocking shelves. The owner tells Peter that Spider-Man returned the previous night and asked if they would hire the kid.

Continuity Notes:
The story takes place in two evenings. The first nine pages occur in one Friday night beginning at 8:55 PM. The tenth and final page happens on Saturday at 8:55 PM.

Spider-Man is wearing his standard Red & Blue (no underarm webs). He's living with Aunt May who doesn't seem to know that he's Spider-Man. As Peter Parker he is wearing glasses throughout. When he sees the imposter take off his mask he thinks "He's a kid, no more than my age, living on the streets."

Everyone is wearing jackets or sweatshirts outside, but there's no snow on the ground and some trees with leaves are visible in the background of one panel. It starts raining when Peter's on his way home, but is no longer raining when he goes out again later.

The owner of the grocery (Fong's) is named Mrs. Fong. I don't see an obvious MCP listing for her, so I'm assuming she's a one-off character.

------------------------------

Story #3: Reprint of Venom: Lethal Protector #3
V:LP 3 is already in the MCP.

------------------------------

Story #4: Reprint of Spider-Man: Death & Destiny #3
SM:D&D 3 is already in the MCP

------------------------------

Story #5: Impending Doom
Original Story and Art: Yamanaka Akira
Translation: Yuko Fukami
English Adaptation: Marc Sumerak

Characters Appearing:
Doctor Doom, Human Torch, Spider-Man, Thing 

Synopsis:
Spider-Man meets the Human Torch and the Thing who have followed Doctor Doom to Japan. After Johnny goes off on his own, Spider-Man and the Thing find that Doom has captured him.

Continuity Notes:
This is a Spider-Man J story.

-------------------------------Mike

			*	*	*

Jun 13, 2008 9:25 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thank you for the analysis, Mike.

The second story must occur before ASM 8, since Peter is wearing his glasses. Off hand, based on no other clue except weather, I'd place the story between September's UTSM 2 and November's A 1.5.

The first story must occur after UX 39, given Jean's costume. But I just don't know how the combination of Hulk with Jean and Spidey and the SHIELD context might fit into known continuity. Can anyone shed more light on this?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jun 15, 2008 2:18 am 
By Col_Fury
Director

Given Jeans costume, were looking roughly at Uncanny 39 through about-ish Uncanny 100. That tail-end is wonky, though, because during the reprint era the X-Men were back in their training uniforms, then back into their new uniforms by Giant-Size #1. The Hidden Years had them in their new uniforms, but Jean was back in her training suit by issue 7. So really, to make this a comfortable fit for Jean, were looking at Uncanny 39 through 66, which would be roughly books from January 1968 through mid-1970. Roughly. 

For the Hulk, that would be Tales to Astonish 99 through Hulk 125, and yet there he is in Uncanny 66. So sometime before that, then. 

For Spider-Man, ASM 56 through ASM 82, give or take. 

For Fury and SHIELD, Strange Tales 164 through Avengers 72. This will constrict things a bit more, because Fury was killed at the end of his book and was revealed to be alive shortly afterwards in Avengers 72, so sometime before Nick Fury 15, which knocks things down to the start of 1968 to the end of 1969. That gives us a publishing two year window, give or take. 

Right smack in the middle of all of this is the wedding of Wasp & Yellowjacket in Avengers 60. In attendance are Spider-Man, Nick Fury, and Jean in her green miniskirt. Right after that in Nicks chronology is Hulk 106-108, which then runs in a fairly continuous story through Hulk 120, 121. However, that Hulk plot had been running fairly continuously since before Tales to Astonish 99, so I would say after that, if only because during that monster story is where Betty finds out Bruce is the Hulk. By Uncanny 66, it seems his identity is no longer a secret. 

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER

H2 120
H2 121
*SMF2 9-FB
*SMF2 9
H2 122


According to Paul Bs Avengers Year-by-Year Calendar, this spot is between Avengers 65 & 66, between Iron Man 14 & 15, after Sub-Mariner 14, and around Uncanny 59. Uncanny started a fairly continuous story with issue 54, and 53 was fairly freestanding, so: 

MARVEL GIRL/JEAN GREY SUMMERS

A 60
A: EMH2 6 (15-20)
UX 53
SUB-M 14
*SMF2 9
UX 54


FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH

IM 13
SUB-M 14
A 64-BTS
*SMF2 9-FB
*SMF2 9-BTS
UX 65-VO
CA 114


For Spider-Man, after Sub-Mariner 14 hes in a fairly continuous plot from ASM 72 through 77. The Human Torch appears there between pages of FF 91, which is before Hulk 122 in the Torchs chronology. ASM 78-79 happen shortly afterwards, thanks to mention of the previous arc in dialogue, the same goes for ASM 80. Theres a nice break between ASM 80 & 81, so: 

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER

SUB-M 14
ASM 72
ASM 73
ASM 74
ASM 75 (1 - 2:2)
DD 54
ASM 75 (2:3 - 20:5)
ASM 76
ASM 77
ASM 78
ASM 79
ASM 80
*SMF2 9
ASM 81


And to follow suit: 

DOCTOR OCTOPUS/OTTO OCTAVIUS

ASM 56
*SMF2 9
ASM 88


Hows that look?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jun 16, 2008 9:35 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Col_Fury wrote:

Given Jeans costume, were looking roughly at Uncanny 39 through about-ish Uncanny 100. That tail-end is wonky, though, because during the reprint era the X-Men were back in their training uniforms, then back into their new uniforms by Giant-Size #1. The Hidden Years had them in their new uniforms, but Jean was back in her training suit by issue 7. So really, to make this a comfortable fit for Jean, were looking at Uncanny 39 through 66, which would be roughly books from January 1968 through mid-1970. Roughly. 

Not necessariy before UX 66, since FFWGCM 3-4 and 11 show Jean in her green and yellow costume after UX 66. (FFWGCM is in the key but not yet in MCP chronologies.)

If we assume placement between ASM 80 and 81, then a chronological analysis across titles places SMF2 9 in October of Year 5 and yields the following...

Spidey also must appear in SM/HT 2 between ASM 80 and 81. I propose Spidey's chronology as:
...
ASM 80
SM/HT 2
SMF2 9
ASM 81
...


Nick Fury's chronology as:
...
IM 16
SMF2 9-FB
SMF2 9-BTS
IM 18
...
(unless there's no gap between IM 16 and 18, in which case I'd go:)
...
IM 18
SMF2 9-FB
SMF2 9-BTS
NFAOS 15


Hulk's chronology as:
...
UX 66
SMF2 9-FB
SMF2 9
H2 125
...


Jean's chronology as:
...
UX 66
SMF2 9
FFWGCM 3
FFWGCM 4
FFWGCM 11
X 94/2
...


Dock Ock's would be as Col_Fury suggests.

How about this?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jun 17, 2008 3:57 pm 
By newtron

Marvel Girl says "But the Avengers weren't around, and neither were the Fantastic Four or Daredevil or Ghost Rider. Finally Fury contacted Spidey." Spidey responds "Ghost Rider?".

Did Ghost Rider exist yet at the proposed time? Does it make sense that none of these heroes would be available at this time?

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Jun 17, 2008 5:28 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Marvel Spotlight #5 (Ghost Rider/Blaze's origin & first appearance) was cover-dated August 1972. UX 66, the last pre-reprint UX issue, was dated March 1970.

Could this take place between UX 94 & 99? (when Jean wasn't with the X-Men) Certainly, if GR is around, it would appear to be between UX 66 & 99.

			*	*	*

Jun 17, 2008 8:27 pm 
By dimadick

The original introduction to Ghost Rider/John Blaze was one long confrontation with "Satan"/Mephisto in Marvel Spotlight #5-11 (August - August, 1973). Assuming this story happens concurrently with 1970 X-Men issues would affect no other major characters. Blaze would not have his first crossover until "Ghost Rider" vol. 2 #1-2 (September - October, 1973) and Marvel Spotlight #12 (October, 1973), his first encounter with Daimon Hellstorm.

			*	*	*

Jun 17, 2008 9:20 pm 
By newtron

assuming that was the case, why would fury even consider contacting ghost rider? or know about him to contact him? i don't think it makes sense unless ghost rider has interacted with some of the rest of the MU.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Could this take place between UX 94 & 99? (when Jean wasn't with the X-Men) Certainly, if GR is around, it would appear to be between UX 66 & 99.
<<<

UX 94 is cover dated August 1975, which (probably) puts it after Spidey's team-up with Ghost Rider in M/TU 15 (November 1973). I interpreted Spidey's "Ghost Rider?" question as meaning he'd never heard of him, which wouldn't make sense if they'd already teamed up. I guess it could have a different reading, though, like "Ghost Rider? Why would they ask him before me?".

Some other possible continuity clues:
- Peter had been on a date earlier that day, so it should probably be at a time when he's seeing somebody
- Marvel Girl finishes a story "...so then this bozo we rescued called me a 'cutie.' me. a cutie." i don't know if this refers to something that happened in an x-men book
- Spidey doesn't seem to be running from the cops, and they don't seem to be after him. Other people really don't seem phased by Spidey, either, so presumably this isn't while he's a wanted man.

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Thread 28

Subject: Hulk: Raging Thunder #1

Jun 21, 2008 2:02 pm 
By michaelyuri

Hulk: Raging Thunder #1
Title: Unbeatable
Writing: Jeff Parker
Drawing: Mitch Breitweiser


Characters Appearing:
Hulk, Thundra
Unnamed daughter of Hulk & Thundra


Synopsis:
1-7: Scenes of the Hulk battling the US military in the Utah desert are intercut with scenes of Thundra's Sisterhood battling an army of men. The military retreats from the Hulk. Thundra defeats the men.

8-9: Thundra announces to a cheering crowd that she will leap through time to challenge the Hulk to battle. She leaps through the chronogate.

10-17: Thundra appears out of nowhere and attacks the Hulk. They battle until the Hulk is temporarily buried under a mountain of rock.

18-19: Thundra tells the Hulk that she has come in search of a man worthy of her. She kisses him and then disappears. Back in her time, it is revealed that the purpose of her visit was to obtain tissue cells from the Hulk with which to impregnate Thundra.

20-22: Thundra's green-skinned daughter battles against the armies of men.


Continuity notes:
Although the events are divided between two different centuries, the first 19 pages occur in a relatively short linear timespan (a few hours). During the initial battle, Thundra is told "Our window for timeline crossover is in three hours"

The story is narrated by Thundra's daughter. Her name is not revealed in the story. 

Hulk placement: The Hulk is in the desert canyons of Southern Utah. The first panel of the story bears the caption "Two Centuries Ago," and later the narration refers to "how much had changed in two hundred years," but I think we'll have to read this pretty loosely. A missile fired at the Hulk from a plane is referred to as a "Hulkbuster Cruise Missile." The Hulk appears to be in his classic mode: "Army sent you. Army thinks Hulk will not hit a woman."

Thundra placement: Thundra is referred to alternately as "Matriarch" and Governess." There are a few references to past events. Someone in the crowd asks if Thundra is going to fight "another like the man Ben Grimm." The narration says: "It had been years since Thundra faced the mighty Ben Grimm in battle. . . . Grimm became an ally, and his team came to our time to help us fight one of the male warlords. . . . Deceptions convinced the Fantastic Four that our warring factions were brought together, so they could return home."

Thundra's daughter: The narration of Thundra's encounter with the Hulk concludes by saying "That was twenty years ago." On the bottom of page 19, there is a map of the earth. With the exception of part of the middle East, the entire world is colored red and labeled with the female (Venus) symbol. The Arabian penninsula is colored blue and labeled with the male (Mars) symbol. This is presumably supposed to be the state of the world in the daughter's time because the narration indicates that she has been expanding the borders and recapturing land, although it's placement is a little ambiguous and I suppose the map could be interpreted as on the other side of the twenty year gap.


Other notes:
Only one of Thundra's people, Avela, is referred to by name. I assume she's some sort of scientist, since she's overseeing both the chronogate and the fertilization process.

The second story in this issue is a reprint of FF 133.

Isn't it a little strange that on the same day that Marvel published Skaar: Son of Hulk they also revealed that the Hulk has a second adult child on a distant world that he doesn't know about?

-Mike

			*	*	*

Jun 21, 2008 8:39 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Mike.

>>>
"It had been years since Thundra faced the mighty Ben Grimm in battle. . . . Grimm became an ally, and his team came to our time to help us fight one of the male warlords. . . . Deceptions convinced the Fantastic Four that our warring factions were brought together, so they could return home."
<<<

So this story occurs "years" after FF 133, but what issue involves the warlord, deceptions, and return home? I checked on a couple of possibilities that didn't pan out.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jun 21, 2008 8:43 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Wait - doesn't Thundra eventually marry Arkon and move to his world? (last shown in JLA/Av #1, IIRC.) How does that fit with this?

			*	*	*

Jun 21, 2008 9:28 pm 
By michaelyuri

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
So this story occurs "years" after FF 133, but what issue involves the warlord, deceptions, and return home? I checked on a couple of possibilities that didn't pan out.
<<<

I don't think the deception part was in the original story -- I took it to be retconning away a previous end to the battle of the sexes. Based on the descriptions here: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/femt.htm I thought it might refer either to FF 151-153 or AWC 75, but I don't have either of these.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Wait - doesn't Thundra eventually marry Arkon and move to his world? (last shown in JLA/Av #1, IIRC.) How does that fit with this?
<<<

If the deception reference is to FF 151-153, maybe this story fits somewhere in the middle of Thundra's chronology, before she marries Arkon and leaves. (And before her death in JLA/Avengers?)

Even if it does fit earlier, this doesn't completely solve the problem since the 20 years later narration by Thundra's daughter suggests that Thundra is still alive and active: "Thundra does not command the sheer raw force she once did, but it is enough to protect the Western Territories."

-Mike

			*	*	*

Jun 22, 2008 4:53 am 
By SeanCurtin

michaelyuri wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
Wait - doesn't Thundra eventually marry Arkon and move to his world? (last shown in JLA/Av #1, IIRC.) How does that fit with this?
<<<

If the deception reference is to FF 151-153, maybe this story fits somewhere in the middle of Thundra's chronology, before she marries Arkon and leaves. (And before her death in JLA/Avengers?)
<<<

IIRC, the deaths in JLA/Avengers were undone at the end of the story. Polemachus and Qward were both destroyed in the same sequence of events, and we've seen Qward since then, so it stands to reason that Polemachus was restored as well. That said, it does look like the story ought to take place before her relationship with Arkon.

			*	*	*

Jun 22, 2008 10:03 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
So this story occurs "years" after FF 133
<<<

From Thundra's perspective, yes. I just thought I'd throw that out there.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Thread 29

Subject: Earth X 0-4

Jun 30, 2008 4:46 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Quick note: 
Even though there are numerous FlashBacks throughout this series to its past that look amazingly similar to the main Marvel Universes past, they do not take place in the Marvel Universe as Earth Xs past diverges far earlier than when any of these events take place. So even though Earth Xs past seems to pick up from the then-current Marvel Universe, its only a fantastic coincidence. 

Earth X #0
Appearances: 
Machine Man(X-51/Aaron Stack), Uatu, Man-Wolf(John Jameson)

Synopsis: 
Pg1-pg19
One day, Aaron Stack wakes up to see a Monolith at the foot of his bed hes seen it before. He touches it, but he falls in and changes. He emerges on the moon looking more mechanical than man, and wanders around until he finds the Watchers home. Unseen, John Jameson watches from afar. When Machine Man enters hes greeted by Uatu who tells him the history of Earth: The Celestials created a monn for the Earth and placed something inside the planet from the displaced mass. They would later return. 
Pg20-pg21-FB
The Celestials created the eternals and Deviants, Ikaris is seen. 
Pg22-pg23-FB
The Kree come to Earth and create the Inhumans. 
Pg24-pg25-FB
The Deviants have become too aggressive, so the Celestials return and wipe them out, accidentally sinking Atlantis as a result. 
Pg26-pg27-FB
The Celestials return again, and convince the various pantheons of worship not to interfere in humanity. Olympians(Zeus, Hercules), Asgardians(Odin, Thor, Loki), and Egyptian gods(Seth & Horus?) are seen. 
Pg28-pg29-FB
Humans become dominant. Through the ages we see Conan, Rawhide Kid, Two-Gun Kid, Kid Colt, and the Night Rider. 
Pg30-pg33-FB
Professor Phineas Horton creates the Human Torch. Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos fight in Europe.(Dum Dum & Gabe Jones are seen) Captain America & Bucky fight saboteurs. Namor fights the Nazis. The Invaders are seen, as are Hitler and the Red Skull. The war ends when the atomic bombs are dropped. 
Pg34-pg35-FB
The nuclear fallout creates an age of monsters. 
Pg36-pg37-FB
Peter Parker is bitten by a radioactive spider. The Fantastic Four are belted his cosmic rays. Bruce Banner is caught in the blast of his detonated gamma bomb. Matt Murdock is doused with radioactive waste. 
Pg38-FB
Johnny Storm finds and wakes up Namor, who then attacks New York and breaks a frozen Captain America free from a glacier. 
Pg39-FB
The Avengers, Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Giant-Man, & Wasp run through New York. Also, Captain Marvel comes to Earth. 
Pg40-pg41-FB
Montage shot of some villains. The Fantastic Four drive Galactus away from Earth.(Silver Surfers there, but not Johnny) 
Pg42-FB
Professor X forms the X-Men.(Cyclops, Beast, Angel, Iceman, Marvel Girl)
Pg43-FB
The Inhumans fly through New York.(Black Bolt, Medusa, Karnak, Gorgon) Also, Adam Warlock is born. 
Pg44-pg45-FB
A montage shot of the then-present day Marvel Universe. Cap has his energy shield, Iron Mans in his Busiek/Chen armor,(his the chest deal connected to his shoulders) Cyclops has a bunch of pouches on his suit, etc. 
Pg46-pg48
Uatu reveals thats the last hes seen of Earth; hes been blind for a while. Hes called X-51 through the Monolith to be his new eyes. 

References: 
Hot dog did I love it when Machine Man was talking to the Monolith. 

Earth X #1
Appearances: 
X-51, Uatu, Black Bolt, Medusa, Triton, Karnak, Gorgon, Luna, Thor, Captain America, Redwing(Wyatt Wingfoot), Hydra, Mr. S(Scott Summers), Spider-Man(Peter Parker), Sgt. Luke Cage, Venom(May Parker), Vision, Iron Man(Tony Stark)

Synopsis: 
Pg1
X-51 & Uatu chat. 
Pg2-pg3-FB
Origin of Captain America & Bucky. Hitler & the Red Skull are seen. 
Pg4-FB
Deaths of Captain America & Bucky. Later, Namor approaches a frozen Captain America. 
Pg5-FB
Captain America and the Falcon fight the Red Skull, whos wielding the Cosmic Cube. 
Pg6-pg23
X-51 watches as the Inhumans return to Earth. Theyre shocked to how much its changed, so they go to New York in search of Black Bolts & Medusas son. When they arrive they see Thor flying in the sky, and theres a fight between Captain America & the Hydra. Various characters make an appearance in the streets, and the Iron Avengers come by to burn out the hydra beast. 

References: 
Im counting the intro page as a page of story, because its a conversation between X-51 and Uatu. 

Characters appear as part of the Hydra, but as revealed in a later issue theyre all dead. So no appearances for Sam Wilson or She-Hulk here. 

The Iron Avengers are modeled to look like some dead Avengers, but theyre programmed robots and not actual characters, so no listings for them. 

Earth X #2
Appearances: 
X-51, Uatu, Black Bolt, Medusa, Triton, Karnak, Gorgon, Luna, Him, Her, Thing(Ben Grimm), Alicia Grimm, Chuck Grimm, Buzz Grimm, Reed Richards, Tony Stark, Captain America, Redwing(Wyatt Wingfoot), Daredevil, Tower, Charmer, Double Header, Dogface, Mermaid, Iron Maiden, Sunspot, Sandman, Omega, Domino, Skull-BTS

Synopsis: 
Pg1
X-51 & Uatu chat. 
Pg2-FB
Reed Richards & friends go up in space. 
Pg3-FB
Having been belted with cosmic rays, the four now have fantastic powers. 
Pg4-pg5-FB
Namor tries to kidnap Sue. Dr. Doom is seen elsewhere. Johnny fights with the Inhumans.(Medusa, Crystal, Triton, Karnak appear, Black Bolt & Maximus are BTS) Uatu helps the FF defeat Galactus. Black Panther appears. Reed holds his son Franklin. 
Pg6-pg9
The Inhumans visit the Thing at his home in New York. Him & Her are seen in the street.(Adam Warlock & Kismet) Ben explains things over dinner. 
Pg10-pg14-FB
The Fantastic Four, Franklin, and Captain America fight Dr. Doom & Namor. Namor kills Johnny, Franklin curses Namor to burn forever.(well, half of him) Sue kills Doom and accidentally herself. 
Pg15-pg23
In Latveria, Reed wears Dooms armor and chats with Tony Stark. Elsewhere, Cap and Redwing go through the ruins of the Helicarrier and pick up Nick Furys sweet car. Meanwhile, Daredevil prepares for his show. Afterwards, the carnival is attacked by Iron Maiden, Sunspot, Sandman, Omega, and Domino. 

Earth X #3
Appearances: 
X-51, Uatu, Captain America, Redwing(Wyatt Wingfoot), Jack of Hearts, Texas Jack Muldoon, Feral, Omega, Iron Maiden, Namor, Spider-Man(peter parker), Venom(May Parker), Black Bolt, Medusa, Karnak, Triton, Gorgon, Luna, Reed Richards, Sunspot, Skull, MODOKs corpse

Synopsis: 
Pg1
X-51 & Uatu chat. 
Pg2-pg3-FB
Origin of Namor, the Sub-Mariner. 
Pg4-FB
Johnny Storm approaches an amnesiac Namor. 
Pg5-FB
Namor marries Dorma, she dies, he starts a company called Oracle. 
Pg6-pg12
Cap & Redwing have made it to California where they find everyone enslaved with red skull flags hanging everywhere. They disguise themselves and witness a fight between Namor & Iron Maiden. Meanwhile, Peter parker tries to convince his daughter May to get rid of the symbiote shes bonded with. Elsewhere, Reed chats with the Inhumans. 
Pg13-FB
Mr. Fantastic tries to solve the worlds energy crisis by using Vibranium. It backfires and mutates the worlds populace. 
Pg14-pg15
Reed chats with the Inhumans. 
Pg16-pg17-FB
Cruising through space, the Inhumans discover a destroyed world with strangely mutated bodies floating in the wreckage. 
Pg18-pg23
Cap watches as Namor is taken control by the Skull a teenage boy. 

Earth X #4
Appearances: 
X-51, Uatu, Black Bolt, Medusa, Karnak, Triton, Gorgon, Luna, Reed Richards, Black Panther, Storm, Beast, Captain America, Redwing(Wyatt Wingfoot), Skull, MODOKs corpse, Namor, Domino, Texas Jack Muldoon, Spiders Man, Iron Maiden, Hydra, Hulk, Bruce Banner, Harpy(Betty Banner), Wong, Sorceress Supreme(Clea)

Synopsis: 
Pg1
X-51 & Uatu chat. 
Pg2-pg5-FB
The origin of the Black Panther, Klaw is seen. 
Pg6-pg23
After calling up the Black Panther, Reed decides to get Professor Xs Cerebro helmet to help find the missing Inhumans. Meanwhile, Cap fights the Skull, who decides to let Captain America go. Elsewhere, Bruce Banner & the Hulk scare away Hydra from Harpy, who runs from Bruce. They go to see Wong and the Sorceress Supreme. 
FB
Iron Maiden falls into a vat of liquid Vibranium. 

Some placement suggestions: 

BANNER, BRUCE 
EARX 0-FB
EARX 4

BEAST 
EARX 0-FB
EARX 4

BLACK BOLT 
EARX 0-FB
EARX 2-FB-BTS
EARX 3-FB
EARX 1
EARX 2
EARX 3
EARX 4

BLACK PANTHER 
EARX 4-FB
EARX 4

BUCKY/JAMES BARNES
EARX 1 (2-3)-FB
EARX 0-FB
EARX 1 (4)-FB

CAGE, SGT. LUKE 
EARX 1

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS 
EARX 1 (2-3)-FB
EARX 0 (30-33)-FB
EARX 1 (4)-FB
EARX 0 (38-39)-FB
EARX 1 (5)-FB
EARX 2 (10-14)-FB
EARX 1
EARX 2
EARX 3
EARX 4

CHARMER 
EARX 2

DAREDEVIL 
EARX 2

DOGFACE 
EARX 2

DOMINO 
EARX 2
EARX 4

DOUBLE HEADER 
EARX 2

DR. DOOM/VICTOR VON DOOM
EARX 2-FB

FALCON/SAM WILSON
EARX 1-FB

FERAL 
EARX 3

FURY, NICK
EARX 0-FB

GALACTUS/FRANKLIN RICHARDS
EARX 2-FB

GORGON 
EARX 0-FB
EARX 3-FB
EARX 1
EARX 2
EARX 3
EARX 4

GRIMM, ALICIA
EARX 2

GRIMM, BUZZ 
EARX 2

GRIMM, CHUCK
EARX 2

HARPY/BETTY BANNER 
EARX 4

HER
EARX 2

HIM 
EARX 0-FB
EARX 2

HULK 
EARX 4

HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND
EARX 0-FB

HUMAN TORCH/JOHNNY STORM
EARX 2 (2)-FB
EARX 0 (36-37)-FB
EARX 2 (3)-FB
EARX 3-FB
EARX 0 (38)-FB
EARX 2 (4-5)-FB
EARX 0 (40-41)-FB
EARX 2 (10-14)-FB

HYDRA 
EARX 1
EARX 4

INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUE RICHARDS
EARX 2 (2)-FB
EARX 0 (36-37)-FB
EARX 2 (3)-FB
EARX 2 (4-5)-FB
EARX 0 (40-41)-FB
EARX 2 (10-14)-FB

IRON MAIDEN 
EARX 4-FB
EARX 2
EARX 3
EARX 4

IRON MAN/TONY STARK 
EARX 0-FB
EARX 1
EARX 2

JACK OF HEARTS 
EARX 3

KARNAK 
EARX 0-FB
EARX 2-FB
EARX 3-FB
EARX 1
EARX 2
EARX 3
EARX 4

LUNA 
EARX 1
EARX 2
EARX 3
EARX 4

MACHINE MAN/X-51/AARON STACK 
EARX 0
EARX 1
EARX 2
EARX 3
EARX 4

MAN-WOLF/JOHN JAMESON
EARX 0

MEDUSA 
EARX 0-FB
EARX 2-FB
EARX 3-FB
EARX 1
EARX 2
EARX 3
EARX 4

MERMAID
EARX 2

MODOKS CORPSE 
EARX 3
EARX 4

MR. S/SCOTT SUMMERS 
EARX 0-FB
EARX 1

NAMOR 
EARX 3 (2-3)-FB
EARX 0 (30-33)-FB
EARX 3 (4)-FB
EARX 0 (38)-FB
EARX 1-FB
EARX 2 (4-5)-FB
EARX 3 (5)-FB
EARX 2 (10-14)-FB
EARX 3
EARX 4

OMEGA
EARX 2
EARX 3

RED SKULL
EARX 1 (2-3)-FB
EARX 0-FB
EARX 1 (5)-FB

REDWING/WYATT WINGFOOT 
EARX 1
EARX 2
EARX 3
EARX 4

RICHARDS, REED 
EARX 2 (2)-FB
EARX 0 (36-37)-FB
EARX 2 (3)-FB
EARX 2 (4-5)-FB
EARX 0 (40-41)-FB
EARX 2 (10-14)-FB
EARX 3-FB
EARX 2
EARX 3
EARX 4

SANDMAN 
EARX 2

SKULL 
EARX 2-BTS
EARX 3
EARX 4

SORCERESS SUPREME/CLEA
EARX 4

SPIDER-MAN/PETER PARKER 
EARX 0-FB
EARX 1
EARX 3

SPIDERS MAN 
EARX 4

STORM 
EARX 4

SUNSPOT 
EARX 2
EARX 3

TEXAS JACK/JACK MULDOON 
EARX 3
EARX 4

THING/BEN GRIMM 
EARX 2 (2)-FB
EARX 0 (36-37)-FB
EARX 2 (3)-FB
EARX 2 (4-5)-FB
EARX 0 (40-41)-FB 
EARX 2 (10-14)-FB
EARX 2

THOR 
EARX 0-FB
EARX 1

TOWER 
EARX 2

TRITON
EARX 2-FB
EARX 1
EARX 2
EARX 3
EARX 4

UATU 
EARX 2-FB
EARX 0
EARX 1
EARX 2
EARX 3
EARX 4

VENOM/MAY PARKER
EARX 1
EARX 3

VISION 
EARX 1

WONG
EARX 4

Up next: Earth X 5-8 & 1/2!

-Daron Jensen

