	Marvel Universe Forum
1. Professor X and the T-O virus
2. Suggested move for M/TU 73
3. Time of Tales of Asgard, Raven Banner, etc.
4. Black Knight chronology
5. Kingpin in ASM 195 -- not BTS
6. Spidey burglar chronology?
7. WOSM 11-12 placement
8. Thor: Son of Asgard
9. Boomer first appearance
10. Xandarian Worldmind, Protector III, Adora
11. Heroes in FANTASTIC FOUR #556
12. Spidey's first costume/webshooters
13. King-Size Spider-Man Summer Special
14. Peter Parker: origin
15. PPTSS 120 placement
16. X-Men: First Class v2 #12-15
17. Peter Parker's book tour

	Issue Analysis Forum
18. July call for analyses
19. August call for analyses
20. X-Men Origins: Colossus #1
21. MK2099: Mutant 2099 and Marvel Team-Up v3 #15-18






Thread 1

Subject: Professor X and the T-O virus

Jul 30, 2008 7:12 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

X-Men: Legacy #214 shows a flashback to a time Xavier died when the T-O virus reached his brain. I'm having trouble pinpointing this event. Does anyone have a citation?

Paul B.

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Jul 30, 2008 7:15 am 
By JD

X-Cutioner's Song ? When Stryfe shoot Xavier with a T-O bullet ?

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Jul 30, 2008 11:25 am 
By metaldragon

I think it was in X-Factor 86 when Apocalypse purges the TO virus from Xavier's body. He appeared to be dead for a second after, which caused the X-Men to freak but then he started breathing again if I remember correctly.

"May the Light shine forever!"

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Aug 01, 2008 7:06 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

So apparently the scene in X 214 isn't a genuine flashback but rather a hallucination in Xavier's mind. Thanks, metaldragon.

Paul B.

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Thread 2

Subject: Suggested move for M/TU 73

Jul 18, 2008 11:42 pm 
By newtron

Spidey's current chronology:

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
...
ASM 185/2
ASM 186
M/TU 73
PPTSS 24
...

In ASM 186, Spider-Man is cleared of all charges by the DA and the police. However, in M/TU 73 Spidey tells Professor Kerwin to wait until he, Spidey, has left before calling the cops. (Also, earlier, Spidey argues with a cop, but this seems to be about tying up traffic.) Spider-Man's request doesn't make a lot of sense unless he's still wanted, so I suggest that this would make more sense if M/TU 73 came before ASM 186 when Spidey was cleared. There doesn't seem to be anything preventing such a change for any of the characters involved.

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
...
ASM 185/2
**M/TU 73**
ASM 186
PPTSS 24
...

I realize that this change isn't necessary, exactly. Because of that and the fact that the original ordering was based on the Official Marvel Index to Marvel Team-Up #4, I don't really expect the change to get incorporated into the main listing. I thought the suggestion might be useful/interesting to readers, though, for developing their own chronologies and reading orders.

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

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Jul 21, 2008 12:44 am 
By TheDeuce

i've never understood sticking to the Official Marvel Index when there's blatant inconsistencies. example: M/TU@ 1 & M/TU 53. solve that one and you'll've done me a favor.

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Aug 01, 2008 11:48 pm 
By cweed4

The comment by Spidey at the end almost seems like a throwaway line. He hasn't exactly had a warm relationship with the police throughout his costumed career. Plus, considering he just got cleared in ASM 186, by verbally abusing a cop after causing a traffic jam and seeing the Owl left in a vegetative state he probably doesn't want to push his luck and stick around.

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Thread 3

Subject: Time of Tales of Asgard, Raven Banner, etc.

Apr 30, 2008 4:31 pm 
By ChastMastr

This may be an odd question, but it occurred to me that this would be the best place for such questions...

I know the Thor entry has a list of when various Asgardian stories with him take place in position with other stories involving him... but has it ever been established when, in relation to Earth and the rest of the MU, those stories from the past take place? For example, would the old Tales of Asgard be taking place during the time the Vikings were worshipping the Norse gods, say around 900 AD, or would it be centuries before, or possibly in some cases long after (maybe the 1500s or even the 20th century, just before Odin made Thor into Donald Blake), or even somehow before the dawn of humanity in some primordial, mythic age, or... ? And how do multiple Ragnaroks fit into all of this?

Help?

David

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Apr 30, 2008 5:41 pm 
By Enda80

"I know the Thor entry has a list of when various Asgardian stories with him take place in position with other stories involving him... but has it ever been established when, in relation to Earth and the rest of the MU, those stories from the past take place? For example, would the old Tales of Asgard be taking place during the time the Vikings were worshipping the Norse gods, say around 900 AD, or would it be centuries before, or possibly in some cases long after (maybe the 1500s or even the 20th century, just before Odin made Thor into Donald Blake), or even somehow before the dawn of humanity in some primordial, mythic age, or... ? And how do multiple Ragnaroks fit into all of this?"

Interesting question. Well, the earliest references to Thor, Baldur, Woden, etc. occur in the Conan stories, which the Handbook reaffirm as part of Earth-616's history. Also, the Council of Sky-Fathers entry acknowledges that these references were to previous incarnations of the Asgardians. The people of Nordheim, Cimmeria's neighbors to the north, worshipped and invoked these deities, and they also worshipped Ymir and his supposed first-born, his daugther Atali. SSOC#141 reveals legends of Ymir defeating vampiric entities. Conan lived at 10,000 BCE. An issue of Conan the Adventurer noted that when the Atlanteans lived the descendants of the Nordheimr "lived far away", and an article in Savage Sword of Conan speculates that the people of Thule of Kull's time were the ancestors of the Nordheimr. Conan lived around 10,000 BCE. 

The history of the Nordheimr continued as Ulysses Bloodstone and the Maha Yogi were Nordheimr from around 8,000 BCE. Later, Nordheimr and Cimmerians immigrated to the area around the Vilayet Sea, later the Caspian Sea, to found the Aryan civilization. The story in Supernatural Thrillers#1 suggests that Ymir worship continued into the post-Conan but pre-Aryan era since the protagonist Niord Worm's Bane invokes Ymir several times. However, the letters page to Supernatural Thrillers#3 or #5 as I recall suggests that Niord Worm's Bane may even have taken place before the time of Kull. The worship of the Asgardians by human beings began at some point after 18,500 BCE. (The first vampire, Varnae, immune to post-Thurian era gods, once stated that he saw the Asgardians emergence "gnaw its way up upon the bones of the old gods' civilization" in MCP I#63.) The cosmic entity the Unbeing while impersonating the other cosmic entity Origin claimed that Origin had directed the Asgardians to seek out Earth in Quasar#18 or so. 

The periodic cycle of Ragnaroks continued. One such cycle happened around 7 BCE to a version of Asgard with a red-haired Thor per Thor I#293. Their counterpart of Odin was also known as Wode, and was worshipped by the Franks in the area that later became Bavaria per Doctor Strange III#37. The Franks held sacrificial jousts in which those warriors slain would gain the honor of joining Wode on the Wild Hunt in the sky. This Asgard went down in flames; evidently, it served as part of the phenomenon later called the Star of Bethlehem which attended the birth of the Christian/Muslim prophet Jesus of Nazareth. Vidar, Balder, Hoenir, Vali, Villi, Ve, Modi and Magni (Thor's sons), and a few other gods of this iteration of Asgard who survived this Ragnarok emerged to find the spear of the prior Odin. Grasping it, they were transformed/merged into a new Odin, who created a new Asgard. Accounts differ as to whether the new Asgardians actually had childhoods (Thor: Son of Asgard) or Odin implanted them with false memories of pasts and childhoods that never happened (Thor I#294). At some point before the birth of Thor, Odin thwarted the rebellion of Rimthursar (Thor I#323 or so). Evidently, memories of the past Asgard remained among men, as a man around 200 CE in pre-Arthurian Britain invoked Woden and Thor (Savage Sword of Conan#106/2, "Men of the Shadows).

Odin mated with Gaea to produce the new pantheon's Thor, who has blond hair (Thor I#294 [Gaea in shadows], Thor I#301, Thor Annual#11). 

Most of Thor's chronologically early adventures take place around 1000 CE such as his battles against Marduk, Grylak, Varnae, Dromedan, and Atlantean mummies animated by Loki. Thor's battle with Hercules in Thor Annual#5 presented a problem, as since Hercules was leading Greek soldiers who worshiped the Olympian gods, while the Codex Theodosius had banned the worship of the Olympian gods centuries before 1000 CE, that seemed to indicate this adventure took before the Codex Theodosius was passed around 400 CE. However, Thor I#300 and the Handbook entries for Zeus and perhaps Hercules indicate that these Greek soldiers were actually brought forward into the future by Hercules. Also, Thor I#300 establishes that his battle happened around 1000 CE, when Odin joined with Zeus and Vishnu to oppose the Celestials. Dwarfed by their power, Odin resolved to oppose the Celestials for their next host. Odin thus created the magical robot the Destroyer. Odin later had the Valkyrie and Thor live on Earth as mortals in a series of events that he later wiped from their minds, though he would admit to this brainwashing centuries later to the Valkyrie in Defenders I#109. During this time, Thor slew the giant Fafnir, who had transformed into a dragon. (A man named James Allison once incorrectly believed that the story of Fafnir slaying the dragon was only a "racial memory" of a conflict that he had had in his past life as Niord Worm's Bane.)

Thor Annual#8 presented a problem, too, since the blond Thor was accidentally sent to the time of the Trojan war and encountered Zeus, who recognized him-even though Thor I#293 would indicate that if any Thor existed then, it would have been the red-haired Thor, as the Trojan War happened long before 7 BCE. The letters page to Thor I#298 and Zeus' Deluxe Edition Handbook entry indicate that Zeus knew about Thor thanks to his oracles and their power of prophecy.

Last edited by Enda80 on Sat May 31, 2008 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

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Apr 30, 2008 7:49 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Given Thor v3 #8, any references to non-blond Thors interacting with humanity should be taken with gallons of salt.

Plus, the eye's version of events was retconned by Simonson & you know it Enda.

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May 01, 2008 1:14 am 
By dimadick

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Interesting question. Well, the earliest references to Thor, Baldur, Woden, etc. occur in the Conan stories, which the Handbook reaffirm as part of Earth-616's history. Also, the Council of Sky-Fathers entry acknowledges that these references were to previous incarnations of the Asgardians. The people of Nordheim, Cimmeria's neighbors to the north, worshipped and invoked these deities, and they also worshipped Ymir and his supposed first-born, his daugther Atali. 
<<<

You seem to forget about Borri, the Grim Grey God and his Choosers of the Slain (Hyborian-era Valkyries). They turn up orchestrating their own demises and those of their last worshippers in "Conan the Barbarian" #3 ("Even the Gods must die"). Based on interpretation Borri can either be identified with either Bri or Borr, respectively the grandfather and father of Odin. 


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Conan lived at 10,000 BCE. An issue of Conan the Adventurer noted that when the Atlanteans lived the descendants of the Nordheimr "lived far away", and an article in Savage Sword of Conan speculates that the people of Thule of Kull's time were the ancestors of the Nordheimr. Conan lived around 10,000 BCE.
<<<

You mean ancestors of the Nordheimr, contemporary to the Atlanteans. According to the "Hyborian Age" essay by Robert E. Howard the Nordheimr evolved from "apemen" of the Arctic Circle:

*"According to the essay, at the time of this cataclysm a group of primitive humans were at a technological level hardly above the Neanderthal. They fled to the Northern areas of what was left of the Thurian continent to escape the destruction. They discovered the areas to be safe but covered with snow and already inhabited by a race of carnivorous apes. The apes were large with white fur and apparently native to their land. The stone age invaders engaged in a territorial war with them and eventually managed to drive them off, past the Arctic Circle. Believing their enemies fated to perish and no longer interested in them, the recently arrived group adapted to their new, harsh environment and its population started to increase."

*"The only exception to their [early Hyborian tribes] long isolation from other cultural groups came due to the actions of a lone adventurer, unnamed in the essay. He had traveled past the Arctic Circle and returned with news that their old adversaries, the apes were not in fact annihilated. They had instead evolved into apemen and according to his description were by then numerous. He believed they were quickly evolving to human status and would pose a threat to the Hyborians in the future. He attempted to recruit a significant military force to campaign against them. But most Hyborians were not convinced by his tales and at last only a small group of foolhardy youths followed his campaign. None of them returned."

*"Meanwhile the "apemen" of the Arctic Circle emerged as a new race of light-haired and tall humans. They started their own migration to the south, displacing the northernmost of the Hyborian tribes." "At the north of the continent, the fair haired invaders from the Arctic Circle had grown in numbers and power. They continued their expansion south while in turn displacing defeated Hyborians to the south. Even Hyperborea was conquered by one of these barbarian tribes. But the conquerors here decided to maintain the kingdom with its old name, merged with the defeated Hyperboreans and adopted elements of Hyborian culture."

*The Hyborian era ended in a new ice age. "Vanaheim and Asgard were freezing and the Vanir and Aesir tribes started their migrations to the south. Gunderland fell to marching Aesir on their way to the former lands of Aquilonia. The Picts were slaughtered while wave after wave of the Northern invaders marched towards the south and into the Pictish Empire. The Hyrkanians did not fare much better. When the migration waves ceased, the Vanir, Aesir and the Cimmerians were spread from the former areas of Hyperborea to Stygia and from the Western Sea to the areas of old Turan. The Picts retained remnants of their old Empire which included Aquilonia, part of Zingara and most of the western coast of the nameless continent. But only Stygia and Shem still contained cities. In all other areas the cities failed to survive the constant wars and the people had returned to nomadic life."

"The sir who dominated Nemedia were called Nemedians, and later figured in Irish history, and the Nordics who settled in Brythunia were known as Brythunians, Brythons or Britons." ... "Another terrific convulsion of the earth, carving out the lands as they are known to moderns, hurled all into chaos again." ... "Great strips of the western coast sank; Vanaheim and western Asgard  uninhabited and glacier-haunted wastes for a hundred years  vanished beneath the waves." ... "In the north the Baltic Sea was formed, cutting Asgard into the peninsulas later known as Norway, Sweden and Denmark". "Whole Nordic tribes were blotted out, and the rest retreated eastward. The territory about the slowly drying inland sea was not affected, and there, on the western shores, the Nordic tribes began a pastoral existence, living in more or less peace with the Cimmerians, and gradually mixing with them."... "They [post cataclusmic remnants of the Picts] were overthrown by the westward drift of the Cimmerians and Nordics. This was so long after the breaking-up of the continent that only meaningless legends told of former empires."

"This drift comes within the reach of modern history and need not be repeated. It resulted from a growing population which thronged the steppes west of the inland sea  which still later, much reduced in size, was known as the Caspian  to such an extent that migration became an economic necessity. The tribes moved southward, northward and westward, into those lands now known as India, Asia Minor and central and western Europe.They came into these countries as Aryans. But there were variations among these primitive Aryans, some of which are still recognized today, others which have long been forgotten.":

*The blond Achaians, Gauls and Britons, for instance, were descendants of pure-blooded sir.
 
*The Nemedians of Irish legendry were the Nemedian sir. 

*The Danes were descendants of pure-blooded Vanir.

*The Goths  ancestors of the other Scandinavian and Germanic tribes, including the Anglo-Saxons  were descendants of a mixed race whose elements contained Vanir, AEsir and Cimmerian strains. 

*The Cymric tribes of Britain were a mixed Nordic-Cimmerian race which preceded the purely Nordic Britons into the isles, and thus gave rise to a legend of Gaelic priority. The Cimbri who fought Rome were of the same blood, as well as the Gimmerai of the Assyrians and Grecians, and Gomer of the Hebrews.

*The Gaels, ancestors of the Irish and Highland Scotch, descended from pure-blooded Cimmerian clans. The original ancestors of the Gaels gave their name to modern Crimea.

*Other clans of the Cimmerians adventured east of the drying inland sea, and a few centuries later mixed with Hyrkanian blood, returned westward as Scythians. 

*"From pure-blooded Shemites, or Shemites mixed with Hyborian or Nordic blood, were descended the Arabs, Israelites, and other straighter-featured Semites."

Thus, according to Howard the Marvel Universe would contain numerous descendants of the Nordics, few of them actually worshiping the Asgardians. 


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Thor's battle with Hercules in Thor Annual#5 presented a problem, as since Hercules was leading Greek soldiers who worshiped the Olympian gods, while the Codex Theodosius had banned the worship of the Olympian gods centuries before 1000 CE, that seemed to indicate this adventure took before the Codex Theodosius was passed around 400 CE. However, Thor I#300 and the Handbook entries for Zeus and perhaps Hercules indicate that these Greek soldiers were actually brought forward into the future by Hercules. 
<<<

Which seems to forget that historically Olympian worship survived imperial persecution for centuries. 


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
(A man named James Allison once incorrectly believed that the story of Fafnir slaying the dragon was only a "racial memory" of a conflict that he had had in his past life as Niord Worm's Bane.)
<<<

If I remember correctly the same story also considers Perseus a racial memory of Niord. However several descendants of Perseus from Greek mythology have appeared in the Marvel Universe, most prominently Hercules.

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May 01, 2008 3:31 am 
By Enda80

Simonson attempted to muddy the waters regarding the recurring Ragnarok, but Gaea herself in Thor I#301 and Thor Annual#11 had confirmed the idea as true.

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May 01, 2008 10:51 am 
By Somebody
Director

The only specific in the eye's story that is true is that Thor is Gaia/Jord's kid, and the only other thing that has any truth to it is that there were previous Asgardian cycles. And, hell, even Garak from DS9 mixed a touch of truth into his habitual lies.

NONE of the other specifics - Odin being fused from gods of the previous cycle and most of the other Asgardians being born as adults from action figures to pick the two most important, although other things such as the timings are also out - are true.

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May 01, 2008 4:53 pm 
By Enda80

"The only specific in the eye's story that is true is that Thor is Gaia/Jord's kid, and the only other thing that has any truth to it is that there were previous Asgardian cycles. And, hell, even Garak from DS9 mixed a touch of truth into his habitual lies.

NONE of the other specifics - Odin being fused from gods of the previous cycle and most of the other Asgardians being born as adults from action figures to pick the two most important, although other things such as the timings are also out - are true."

For the record, Gaea did affirm that previous cycles of Asgardians existed in Thor I#301 in dialogue.

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May 01, 2008 5:20 pm 
By Somebody
Director

I didn't dispute that - indeed, I specifically affirmed it in the post you quote. Thor v2 #80-85 makes it inescapable.

Two things from Elim, Eye of Odin's story are true:
(1) Gaia/Jord is Thor's mother [reaffirmed as recently as T3 3 and Hulk/Herc: When Titans Collide] and
(2) there were previous Asgardian cycles before the "Kirby Cycle" [T2 80-85]

And those two things both have corroboration independent of the eye's story.

Everything else that HASN'T been independently corroborated is absolute bunk, including the depiction of the end of the previous cycle and the start of the Kirby Cycle, the timing of the start of the Kirby Cycle to 7BC, etc. And you shouldn't peddle it.

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May 01, 2008 6:09 pm 
By Enda80

In Defenders I#109, Odin affirms to Brunnhilde that the Ring of the Niebelung adventure from Thor I#295-300 happened.

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May 01, 2008 7:46 pm 
By ChastMastr

Oh Lord. I hadn't even thought about how later retcons (of other retcons, possibly of yet other retcons) might have affected the mix. I assume that (for example) when the Eye of Odin story (not yet read it, I think...) was written, that was the official word on Asgardian history, and was only later decanonized (as it were) as being false.  

So really what I want to know (which may be beyond the scope of the chronology project  , since that deals with whatever current canon is, rather than canon circa 1977, or circa 1985, or circa 1968, right?) is probably not only what current canon says, but what it said back when at different stages before it was retconned out in favor of whatever became the new canon. Which may be a hideous tangled mess as different writers progressively undid each other's work over the years, I suspect...  

David

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May 02, 2008 7:59 pm 
By Enda80

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/tiwazthor.htm

Responding to some points
Doctor Strange referred to Buri or as Bori once, as I mention in the above page.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/bloodstoneulysses.htm

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/bloodstoneulysses.htm

I submitted comments about ancient Vanaheim at the second link.

In Conan the Adventurer#2, a priest mentions (on page 20) that in the days of Atlantis "the Vanir dwelled in a distant land". The Hyborian Age essay mentions that the Vanir reached Vanaheim during the period from about 14,000 to 10,000 BC. Savage Sword of Conan#141 reveals that at some point a group of vampires attacked the Nordheimr.

An article in Savage Sword of Conan#40 speculated that the Hyborian Age people, the Vanir and Aesir of Nordheim may descended from the people of Thule.

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May 02, 2008 8:06 pm 
By Enda80

"Enda80 wrote:
Thor's battle with Hercules in Thor Annual#5 presented a problem, as since Hercules was leading Greek soldiers who worshiped the Olympian gods, while the Codex Theodosius had banned the worship of the Olympian gods centuries before 1000 CE, that seemed to indicate this adventure took before the Codex Theodosius was passed around 400 CE. However, Thor I#300 and the Handbook entries for Zeus and perhaps Hercules indicate that these Greek soldiers were actually brought forward into the future by Hercules. 


Which seems to forget that historically Olympian worship survived imperial persecution for centuries"

Hmmm....Well, there have appeared a few isolated societies of classical culture such as Nova Roma, the Romans the Challenger encountered, as well as the Minoans that Shanna encountered.

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Jul 31, 2008 1:24 pm 
By ChastMastr

Okay, now I'm confused again but this is more of a general question connected with the issue on this thread...

So... not only have there been multiple Ragnaroks... they also, when they happen, "reset" Midgard as well? (Someone suggested this in another thread.) I.e., if you were in the 616 MU we have right now, and travelled back in time, and then went to Asgard, you would still be in the current cycle, and all the previous Ragnarok eras of Thor (as we're seeing in the current batch of miniseries) would be sort of "before" all of that? (Hmmm, would that mean that Galen, the being who became Galactus from the universe before 616's Big Bang, would be in the era of the previous Ragnarok?) I thought perhaps if you went back, say, a thousand years, or ten thousand, you'd be in a different Ragnarok cycle, with a slightly different Thor, Odin, Asgardian history, etc. (my God, it's like Crisis and Zero Hour -- you can have any interpretation of Thor you want, it's just in a different Ragnarok cycle) But the thing is, I thought we always saw Thor and the Norse gods (up till, oh, Thor Disassembled basically) being the same people going back thousands and thousands of years, so at any point in Marvel 616 history, it'd be the same Thor, Odin, Loki, etc. rather than a previous incarnation of them. I mean, it's probably a retcon anyway, but I guess I'm asking, if you were around 800 AD, Marvel 616 time, which Thor would be hanging around, the same guy who 1200 years later joined the Avengers, or a previous incarnation of Thor? Or if Midgard "reboots" along with Asgard, would the previous Ragnarok be from some universe prior to 616? And if everything in the entire cosmology -- which would mean not only the Earth dimension but, say, Olympus, etc. and all the other pantheons who don't do the cyclical Ragnarok thing -- reboots over and over again, this kind of makes Asgard more central to Marvel's entire cosmology than, well, absolutely everything else, which doesn't really seem to fit Marvel's whole setup.

I'm really confused. Help? 

David

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Jul 31, 2008 5:48 pm 
By Somebody
Director

LOL  If you went back 1200 years, you'd find the Kirby Cycle Asgardians, yes.

The basic problem comes from Marvel's "all creation myths are valid" thing (along with the Big Bang theory), restated on the Norse side as recently as T3 8, where Odin ["our" Odin, that is] created humanity and ticked his dad off royally in the process. Whereas previous cycles (as seen in Thor: Ages of Thunder & Thor: Reign of Blood just recently) were interacting with humans too. And Norse artifacts are quite capable of destroying/remaking the universe (see A3 1-3, for instance).

Now, Thor smashed the Norns' weave in T2 85 so that nothing reset, and the gods' and suchlike's spirits - having nowhere to go, since Valhalla/Hel/etc were destroyed too - ended up in humans.

What happens in a "normal" Ragnarok isn't entirely clear - but it's clear that the Norse gods get a new Earth to play with. Maybe Midgard doesn't get reset, but the rebooted Asgard twists and gets a new (alternate) Earth to play with. Maybe it rewinds, but not all the way. Or maybe the whole shebang does reboot.

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Jul 31, 2008 6:59 pm 
By DonCampbell

Somebody wrote:
I didn't dispute that - indeed, I specifically affirmed it in the post you quote. Thor v2 #80-85 makes it inescapable.

Two things from Elim, Eye of Odin's story are true:
(1) Gaia/Jord is Thor's mother [reaffirmed as recently as T3 3 and Hulk/Herc: When Titans Collide] and
(2) there were previous Asgardian cycles before the "Kirby Cycle" [T2 80-85]

And those two things both have corroboration independent of the eye's story.

Everything else that HASN'T been independently corroborated is absolute bunk, including the depiction of the end of the previous cycle and the start of the Kirby Cycle, the timing of the start of the Kirby Cycle to 7BC, etc. And you shouldn't peddle it.

I think it is a DRASTIC overstatement to claim that most of what the Eye of Odin told Thor is "absolute bunk." Personally, I rather liked the Eye's account of how the previous Asgard ended and how the current Asgard was born. Also, as far as I know, no alternate explanation for how the Ragnarok cycle works has yet been put forward so we might as well accept the Eye's story (albeit with a notation that it MIGHT not be accurate).

Also, I think it would really be a good idea to take a close look at what "Tiwaz" actually told Thor in THOR #355. Quoting from page 15, Tiwaz says, "Oh, I know you have heard different versions of Odin's beginnings. Did not a great eyeball with a grudge once tell you that your father was the fusion of four earlier gods? And did not Odin himself tell you of his younger days with his two brothers? In truth, were I told conflicting stories by my father and a floating eyeball, I know which I should believe." And that's ALL he says. While it seems to me that "Tiwaz" was strongly implying that the Eye of Odin was lying, it falls short of being an absolute declaration. And let's not forget that "Tiwaz" himself was lying to Thor the whole time they were together since he was, in actuality, Thor's own great-grandfather, BURI. So I would take anything that "Tiwaz" said with a grain of salt.

There's one other factor to be considered. On the letters page (remember those?) of THOR #421 (August, 1990), a reader had written in to ask which of the two origins of Odin was the true origin. The editorial staff chose to duck the question by throwing it out to Marveldom Assembled and offering a "genuine, rust-resistant No-Prize to the readers who come up with the best explanations for this apparent contrtadiction!" A few months later, in the letters page of THOR #428, they printed a sampling of eight of the letters that had been received, preceded by the following statement:

"On the letters page of THOR #421, Michael Gregg asked about the true origin of Odin. Rather than look up the official response in THE HANDBOOK OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE, we thought it would be fun to throw it out to Marveldom Assembled, promising one of our world famous No-Prizes to the reader with the best explanation."

"Unfortunately, we never anticipated the tremendous response we'd get to such an offer. Thousands upon thousands of letters started pouring in. Almost enough for us to be granted our very own, private zip code! With the exception of one really weird one (and you know who you are), most of the explanations were terrific! Each and every letter contained a fresh, new idea or a startlingly subtle insight!"

"We were overwhelmed and instantly realized that there was no way to objectively decide which was the single best explanation. So, in the interests of fairness, we randomly selected a few different letters, and we are awarding them all No-Prizes!"

What does this mean? As Somebody is sure to point out, statements made in letterspages are not considered "canon." However, they can be useful in establishing what the opinions of the writers and/or editors are. In this case, it seems that nobody had a clear idea of what Odin's "true origin" was. In other words, despite what the OFFICIAL HANDBOOK may (or may not) have said, the people who were writing THOR weren't sure of what was "canon" and what wasn't. In fact, if you look at the then-current edition of the Marvel Handbook, the entry for Odin does NOT specifically state that "everything the Eye said is lies." Instead, the entry is rather diplomatic about it, stating that the Eye's account "may well be no more than a fiction created by the Eye for unknown reasons" or "It is unclear how much truth, if any, there is to this story told by the Eye."

Now, I'm not trying to say that EVERYthing the Eye told Thor was the absolute truth/canon and anyone who disagrees is a damned heretic. However, I'm also not willing to completely dismiss the Eye's account simply because Walt Simonson wrote a story in which ONE character IMPLIED that the Eye was lying about Odin's origin. And I'm also not willing to blindly accept everything in any of the retcons that subsequent writers have seen fit to force upon us (anymore than some posters on this board are willing to accept the events depicted in SPIDER-WOMAN: ORIGIN as the new "canon" about Jessica Drew's origin).

As I said before, I liked the Eye of Odin's account of the earlier Asgard's Ragnorok and, until someone comes along to provide another explanation of what actually happens between the Ragnarok cycles, I'm perfectly willing to accept it as something that MIGHT have happened. I just don't consider it to have been disproven...yet.

Finally, for the record, I am extremely disappointed with what Matt Fraction and J.M. Straczynski have been doing recently. Fraction completely GUTTED the entire back-story of K'un-Lun (as presented in over thiry years worth of stories) during his run on IMMORTAL IRON FIST, and what jms has been doing on THOR (like stating that Odin created humanity) is REALLY irritating to me continuity-wise.

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Jul 31, 2008 7:34 pm 
By Somebody
Director

DonCampbell wrote:
>>>
Also, I think it would really be a good idea to take a close look at what "Tiwaz" actually told Thor in THOR #355. Quoting from page 15, Tiwaz says, "Oh, I know you have heard different versions of Odin's beginnings. Did not a great eyeball with a grudge once tell you that your father was the fusion of four earlier gods? And did not Odin himself tell you of his younger days with his two brothers? In truth, were I told conflicting stories by my father and a floating eyeball, I know which I should believe." And that's ALL he says. While it seems to me that "Tiwaz" was strongly implying that the Eye of Odin was lying, it falls short of being an absolute declaration. And let's not forget that "Tiwaz" himself was lying to Thor the whole time they were together since he was, in actuality, Thor's own great-grandfather, BURI. So I would take anything that "Tiwaz" said with a grain of salt.
<<<

Thing is though - by the Eye's account there WAS NO Buri to father Bor, nor Bor to father Odin. Buri/Tiwaz's very existence goes against the Eye's story.


DonCampbell wrote:
>>>
Now, I'm not trying to say that EVERYthing the Eye told Thor was the absolute truth/canon and anyone who disagrees is a damned heretic. However, I'm also not willing to completely dismiss the Eye's account simply because Walt Simonson wrote a story in which ONE character IMPLIED that the Eye was lying about Odin's origin. And I'm also not willing to blindly accept everything in any of the retcons that subsequent writers have seen fit to force upon us (anymore than some posters on this board are willing to accept the events depicted in SPIDER-WOMAN: ORIGIN as the new "canon" about Jessica Drew's origin).
<<<

Thing is though, SW:O is in the MCP. With a crowbar at points, yes, but in the MCP.

And if it comes down to throwing one already-unreliable flashback out, or throwing a whole series (Thor: Son of Asgard) out wholesale... I'll go with the series. Especially since there was more against SW:O than against T:SOA.


DonCampbell wrote:
>>>
I think it is a DRASTIC overstatement to claim that most of what the Eye of Odin told Thor is "absolute bunk." Personally, I rather liked the Eye's account of how the previous Asgard ended and how the current Asgard was born. Also, as far as I know, no alternate explanation for how the Ragnarok cycle works has yet been put forward so we might as well accept the Eye's story (albeit with a notation that it MIGHT not be accurate).
<<<

Fair enough. I think the weight of evidence against it has reached critical mass by this point, however. To wit (and I'm pulling this example out of thin air - any resemblance to any actual story past, present or future is purely coincidental) if one issue features Character X spinning a tale of how he was born as an only child into an poor family, how he was shot at by the Punisher who was looking for a mob boss, and how that led him to invent a suit of armour and declare revenge against the Punisher... only for it to be later revealed that he was never an only child, and that he stole the armour... I would dump the rest of the FB on the basis that it's been shown to be unreliable regardless of whether other FBs have superceded those bits.

Hell, the way the Loeb/Sale "colour" series have been treated mirrors that - the framing sequences are in the MCP, but the FBs (even the bits that don't contradict other material) aren't.

			*	*	*

Jul 31, 2008 9:35 pm 
By ChastMastr

Somebody wrote:
>>>
LOL  If you went back 1200 years, you'd find the Kirby Cycle Asgardians, yes.

The basic problem comes from Marvel's "all creation myths are valid" thing (along with the Big Bang theory), restated on the Norse side as recently as T3 8, where Odin ["our" Odin, that is] created humanity and ticked his dad off royally in the process. 
<<<

Yeah, I was kind of wondering how that fit with... well, everything.

I think Marvel's fit-everything-together approach -- such as, for instance, the implied "Eternals living on Olympus inspired the legends of the Greek and perhaps other gods, while Deviants were the inspiration behind trolls, demons, ogres, etc." notion having to be set in the same universe as real Greek gods, trolls, ogres, demons, etc. -- leads to all kinds of awkwardness. (And now we can throw in Nightcrawler's father being a member of some kind of mutant subspecies who seem implied to be the inspiration behind demons, and another subspecies the inspiration behind angels -- in a world with real demons and angels already too -- gah! I liked it better when he just coincidentally resembled a classic "demon" image.)

Be that as it may, of course, we are still stuck with Eternals AND Greek gods and so on, but while possibly awkward, that's still a far cry from Odin canonically creating humanity. Especially in a universe where quite a few ordinary mortal folks can say, "Okay, we're resolving this once and for all, let's go get Doctor Doom's time machine and look," not to mention all the cosmic ancient folks who've been around since before the dawn of man, etc. And of course if Odin somehow THINKS he created humanity but didn't, then, er, that's kind of creepy, a delusional god wandering around...

(Of course, there could be some sort of thing in which on a mystical level, Odin and other creator gods can mythically describe themselves as the creators of things, on some sort of Platonic arch-reality of non-physical archetypes which are then unfolded into the physical world and when they enter Time and Space, these creations (including humanity) come into being via the Big Bang, evolution, the Celestials showing up and genetically tinkering and so forth, but that's not so far as I know what's being said. Neil Gaiman or Alan Moore could do the whole thing justice if Marvel took that route, probably Morrison too...)

Hmmm, with all the different Ragnaroks -- and (possibly) extra Midgards, then -- does that mean that each parallel Earth with a Thor in it would also have a whole bunch of extra Asgards and Ragnaroks (and therefore even more Midgards, yikes)?    

David
opening up a can of world-serpents

			*	*	*

Aug 01, 2008 12:38 am 
By DonCampbell

Somebody wrote:
>>>
DonCampbell wrote:
>>>
And let's not forget that "Tiwaz" himself was lying to Thor the whole time they were together since he was, in actuality, Thor's own great-grandfather, BURI. So I would take anything that "Tiwaz" said with a grain of salt.
<<<

Thing is though - by the Eye's account there WAS NO Buri to father Bor, nor Bor to father Odin. Buri/Tiwaz's very existence goes against the Eye's story.
<<<

It's funny you should mention that. When I first read THOR #349 & 355, it seemed that I would have to decide between the two origins of Odin (i.e. that one origin was "true" and that the other one was thus "false"). However, I later realized that that wasn't the case. The concept that there had been (at least) two different incarnations of Asgard meant that MAYBE the different origins were NOT contradictory because they were actually connected to different Asgards. With that in mind, I had no trouble jumping to the conclusion that maybe Buri/Tiwaz was from the earlier/first Asgard in which he did father Bor who then fathered Odin, Vili and Ve. Of course, that would mean that Buri must have somehow survived the Ragnarok that destroyed Old Asgard but that didn't seem like much of a problem, and it was a small price to pay for preserving the two different origin stories.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
And if it comes down to throwing one already-unreliable flashback out, or throwing a whole series (Thor: Son of Asgard) out wholesale... I'll go with the series. Especially since there was more against SW:O than against T:SOA.
<<<

Okay, here we have a difference of opinion because there are some cases where I would absolutely be willing to throw out a whole series. Of course, that would not be my first choice. At best, I think that contradicting elements should be "explained away" in such a way that as little damage as possible is done to the competing stories. If this proved to be impossible, then I would be in favour of throwing one of the combatants out of "mainstream" continuity by declaring it to be (essentially) a What If? story, something from an alternate (non-mainstream) reality. In a worst case scenario, wherein I find the retcon to be totally incompatible with earlier stories but the Powers That Be at "New" Marvel are absolutely indifferent to this fact, then I would adopt a "grin-and-bear-it" attitude and resign myself to settling down to hope that some future writing team would realize the HORRIBLE MISTAKE that had been made and write a storyline that undid the retcon. And yes, that is what I'm doing with regards to SPIDER-WOMAN: ORIGIN.

In the case of THOR: SON OF ASGARD, I was quite disappointed that the writer didn't bother to work with (or even around) the original stories by Lee and Kirby. Personally, I dismissed T:SOA as "not applying to the current Asgard" soon after it began straying TOO far from previously-established continuity. But that's just me.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
DonCampbell wrote:
>>>
I think it is a DRASTIC overstatement to claim that most of what the Eye of Odin told Thor is "absolute bunk." Personally, I rather liked the Eye's account of how the previous Asgard ended and how the current Asgard was born. Also, as far as I know, no alternate explanation for how the Ragnarok cycle works has yet been put forward so we might as well accept the Eye's story (albeit with a notation that it MIGHT not be accurate).
<<<

Fair enough. I think the weight of evidence against it has reached critical mass by this point, however. To wit (and I'm pulling this example out of thin air - any resemblance to any actual story past, present or future is purely coincidental) if one issue features Character X spinning a tale of how he was born as an only child into an poor family, how he was shot at by the Punisher who was looking for a mob boss, and how that led him to invent a suit of armour and declare revenge against the Punisher... only for it to be later revealed that he was never an only child, and that he stole the armour... I would dump the rest of the FB on the basis that it's been shown to be unreliable regardless of whether other FBs have superceded those bits.

Hell, the way the Loeb/Sale "colour" series have been treated mirrors that - the framing sequences are in the MCP, but the FBs (even the bits that don't contradict other material) aren't.
<<<

I see your point and I mostly agree with it. Regarding your Punisher example, I would agree with you that Character X's earlier origin/FB should be dumped (preferably with some explanation/retcon that established that it was actually ALWAYS false). However, in the case of the Eye of Odin's story, I really don't think that there is anywhere near a "critical mass of evidence" against it yet. The thing is, although the idea that there have been multiple Asgards has (now) been firmly established, nobody has yet provided any details about exactly what happens between Asgards...EXCEPT for the Eye of Odin. Thus, in the absence of any "competing" explanation, I am totally willing to accept the Eye's version of how Old Asgards die and New Asgards are reborn. And I will remain supportive of that version until such time as some writer sees fit to produce a "multiple Asgards" story that does provide those missing details.

Also, that information about the Loeb/Sale "colour" series surprises me. I must say that I really don't see the point of including the framing sequences in the MCP if all of the flashbacks are left out. It seems to me that this is an all-or-nothing situation: either accept the FBs as a retcon (that overwrites earlier stories) or dismiss all of the series as "out-of-continuity."

Don Campbell

			*	*	*

Aug 01, 2008 4:24 pm 
By ChastMastr

DonCampbell wrote:
>>>
Okay, here we have a difference of opinion because there are some cases where I would absolutely be willing to throw out a whole series. 
<<<

Oh, I feel that way about so many books and storylines these days, LOL (Illuminati, Wolverine Origins, Romulus, etc.) -- especially as I personally (and not for purposes of the Chronology Project, which I understand must treat the current status quo, whatever Marvel does, as formal canon until the next retcon comes along -- I mean in my own reading and enjoyment) consider a lot of the older stories to be at least an alternate universe to the retconned alterations we've had. (Out there somewhere, there is a Marvel Universe in which Logan had memory implants but was not manipulated so badly, and never did the really dishonorable and horrible things they've shown him doing years ago; where Reed never kept Illuminati-ish secrets from Sue and Xavier didn't hide a "secret team" of X-Men who died, including Vulcan, from anyone especially Scott and Alex; where Peter (and or MJ) never made a deal with Mephisto and lived happily ever after... and when I read older stories which didn't have those backstories in mind, as far as I am personally concerned, that's the Marvel Universe I'm reading about, maybe not 616 but 616 and a half, or 615, or something, but to me personally that world is just as far removed from present 616 as Spider-Girl or Marvel Adventures or the Ultimate books. I'm sure five years from now half of this will be retconned away anyway but I do know for now this is the official status quo -- and I still want to understand it, and I'm still really confused!)

So... like... if I got into Dr. Doom's time machine and went back to 800s AD Norway... and Thor showed up -- would he be the present Thor who ultimately joined the Avengers, or some previous version of Thor?  I'm still kind of lost. And, of course, what Vikings (if not the ones from 616, 800s AD era Norway) worshipped the previous Thors? Since there have been at least 24 Ragnaroks and each cycle goes on for hundreds (?) of years.... aaaaa, my head is exploding now.

			*	*	*

Aug 01, 2008 8:03 pm 
By Enda80

DonCampbell wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
DonCampbell wrote:
>>>
And let's not forget that "Tiwaz" himself was lying to Thor the whole time they were together since he was, in actuality, Thor's own great-grandfather, BURI. So I would take anything that "Tiwaz" said with a grain of salt.
<<<

Thing is though - by the Eye's account there WAS NO Buri to father Bor, nor Bor to father Odin. Buri/Tiwaz's very existence goes against the Eye's story.
<<<

It's funny you should mention that. When I first read THOR #349 & 355, it seemed that I would have to decide between the two origins of Odin (i.e. that one origin was "true" and that the other one was thus "false"). However, I later realized that that wasn't the case. The concept that there had been (at least) two different incarnations of Asgard meant that MAYBE the different origins were NOT contradictory because they were actually connected to different Asgards. With that in mind, I had no trouble jumping to the conclusion that maybe Buri/Tiwaz was from the earlier/first Asgard in which he did father Bor who then fathered Odin, Vili and Ve. Of course, that would mean that Buri must have somehow survived the Ragnarok that destroyed Old Asgard but that didn't seem like much of a problem, and it was a small price to pay for preserving the two different origin stories.
<<<

I had just such a solution in mind, so for Thor's Avenger 2004 Handbook, I suggested to the writers of the Handbook the following wording:

Thor is the thunder god of the Asgardians, a race worshipped in the
past as the Norse Gods. Thor's grandfather, Buri, was born untold eons ago,
the first god in a realm formerly populated only by the Frost Giant Ymir and
the great cow Audmilla. Buri eventually took a Frost Giantess wife, giving
birth to Bor, who in turn married the giantess Bestia, spawning Odin, Villi,
and Ve. The Asgardians of that and succeeding generations have lived through
cycles of destruction and rebirth, the most recent of which occurred
approximately two thousand years ago."

So, I had in mind that Ymir and Buri stood outside of the cyclical rebirth. (One problem I had with Thor I#293-294 is that there is a panel in one of this issues that is a direct reference to Thor Annual#5 where the eye seems to indicate that Ymir was only a fable told by Odin, which sounds problematic if one considers Avengers I#61 where Ymir attacks Wakanda and the dozens of reference to Ymir in the Hyborian Era.)

			*	*	*

Aug 01, 2008 8:11 pm 
By Enda80

ChastMastr wrote:
>>>
DonCampbell wrote:
>>>
Okay, here we have a difference of opinion because there are some cases where I would absolutely be willing to throw out a whole series. 
<<<

Oh, I feel that way about so many books and storylines these days, LOL (Illuminati, Wolverine Origins, Romulus, etc.) -- especially as I personally (and not for purposes of the Chronology Project, which I understand must treat the current status quo, whatever Marvel does, as formal canon until the next retcon comes along -- I mean in my own reading and enjoyment) consider a lot of the older stories to be at least an alternate universe to the retconned alterations we've had. (Out there somewhere, there is a Marvel Universe in which Logan had memory implants but was not manipulated so badly, and never did the really dishonorable and horrible things they've shown him doing years ago; where Reed never kept Illuminati-ish secrets from Sue and Xavier didn't hide a "secret team" of X-Men who died, including Vulcan, from anyone especially Scott and Alex; where Peter (and or MJ) never made a deal with Mephisto and lived happily ever after... and when I read older stories which didn't have those backstories in mind, as far as I am personally concerned, that's the Marvel Universe I'm reading about, maybe not 616 but 616 and a half, or 615, or something, but to me personally that world is just as far removed from present 616 as Spider-Girl or Marvel Adventures or the Ultimate books. I'm sure five years from now half of this will be retconned away anyway but I do know for now this is the official status quo -- and I still want to understand it, and I'm still really confused!)

So... like... if I got into Dr. Doom's time machine and went back to 800s AD Norway... and Thor showed up -- would he be the present Thor who ultimately joined the Avengers, or some previous version of Thor?  I'm still kind of lost. And, of course, what Vikings (if not the ones from 616, 800s AD era Norway) worshipped the previous Thors? Since there have been at least 24 Ragnaroks and each cycle goes on for hundreds (?) of years.... aaaaa, my head is exploding now.
<<<

As I have mentioned, in the Hyborian Age, the people of Nordheim worshipped an incarnation of the Asgardians.

			*	*	*

Aug 01, 2008 8:32 pm 
By Somebody
Director

ChastMastr wrote:
>>>
[So... like... if I got into Dr. Doom's time machine and went back to 800s AD Norway... and Thor showed up -- would he be the present Thor who ultimately joined the Avengers
<<<

Yes.

			*	*	*

Aug 01, 2008 10:53 pm
By Somebody
Director

DonCampbell wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
DonCampbell wrote:
>>>
And let's not forget that "Tiwaz" himself was lying to Thor the whole time they were together since he was, in actuality, Thor's own great-grandfather, BURI. So I would take anything that "Tiwaz" said with a grain of salt.
<<<

Thing is though - by the Eye's account there WAS NO Buri to father Bor, nor Bor to father Odin. Buri/Tiwaz's very existence goes against the Eye's story.
<<<

It's funny you should mention that. When I first read THOR #349 & 355, it seemed that I would have to decide between the two origins of Odin (i.e. that one origin was "true" and that the other one was thus "false"). However, I later realized that that wasn't the case. The concept that there had been (at least) two different incarnations of Asgard meant that MAYBE the different origins were NOT contradictory because they were actually connected to different Asgards. With that in mind, I had no trouble jumping to the conclusion that maybe Buri/Tiwaz was from the earlier/first Asgard in which he did father Bor who then fathered Odin, Vili and Ve. Of course, that would mean that Buri must have somehow survived the Ragnarok that destroyed Old Asgard but that didn't seem like much of a problem, and it was a small price to pay for preserving the two different origin stories.
<<<

But then- by your version - Buri/Tiwaz isn't Thor's great-grandfather. At all. He's the grandfather of an Odin who is dead, buried, and who doesn't form even part of the extant Odin.

This argument reminds me of a passage from a recent cause clbre court case here, wherein one witness tried to argue that when he said someone was "under the impression", he meant a fact had been impressed upon them, rather than the universal usage as "they thought that". As the judge said, "It is simply a question of construing the English language in an idiomatic way. Being "under the impression" is not to be equated with having it impressed on one. This again is disingenuous."


DonCampbell wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
And if it comes down to throwing one already-unreliable flashback out, or throwing a whole series (Thor: Son of Asgard) out wholesale... I'll go with the series. Especially since there was more against SW:O than against T:SOA.
<<<

Okay, here we have a difference of opinion because there are some cases where I would absolutely be willing to throw out a whole series. Of course, that would not be my first choice. At best, I think that contradicting elements should be "explained away" in such a way that as little damage as possible is done to the competing stories. If this proved to be impossible, then I would be in favour of throwing one of the combatants out of "mainstream" continuity by declaring it to be (essentially) a What If? story, something from an alternate (non-mainstream) reality.
<<<

And usually *I'M* the one who's the exclusionist . I'll come back to this in a moment, considering that the last part of your post is the better for replying to, but it comes down to objective vs. subjective. The latter are inherently far less reliable.


DonCampbell wrote:
>>>
However, in the case of the Eye of Odin's story, I really don't think that there is anywhere near a "critical mass of evidence" against it yet. The thing is, although the idea that there have been multiple Asgards has (now) been firmly established, nobody has yet provided any details about exactly what happens between Asgards...EXCEPT for the Eye of Odin. Thus, in the absence of any "competing" explanation, I am totally willing to accept the Eye's version of how Old Asgards die and New Asgards are reborn. And I will remain supportive of that version until such time as some writer sees fit to produce a "multiple Asgards" story that does provide those missing details.
<<<

Again, see below (when a critical mass of a story is undermined, as the EoO's is, IMO, then the rest of it goes regardless of whether it's directly contradicted or not) - but there's the additional detail that T2 85 provided a key detail about what happens between Ragnaroks from an objective viewpoint. The Norns unravel their tapestry, undo the history it shows, and start again. There's no hint of history being unwound in the rather prosiac "everyone dies, then the survivors merge and create new people from action figures".


DonCampbell wrote:
>>>
Also, that information about the Loeb/Sale "colour" series surprises me. I must say that I really don't see the point of including the framing sequences in the MCP if all of the flashbacks are left out. It seems to me that this is an all-or-nothing situation: either accept the FBs as a retcon (that overwrites earlier stories) or dismiss all of the series as "out-of-continuity."
<<<

Here's the thing - like the Eye of Odin's story, the "meat" of the L/S "colour" books is a series of subjective flashbacks on the part of the lead character, as either told to another character or as a record being made. The framing sequences, on the other hand, are objective - they're being shown from an omniscient viewpoint.

The objective viewpoint can't really be argued with - you either accept it (possibly with rationalisations), or you don't. In the case of the "colour" books, there's no reason not to accept the objective portion in its' own right.

The subjective viewpoint, however, is far more complicated. Subjective flashbacks are inherently unreliable for any number of reasons - they're prone to mistakes, misrememberings, distortions, delusions and outright lies. Think of a period of your own life, and try and put everything into chronological order with no mistakes without reference to any other sources. They can be accepted, to a point - but that point is when they are corroborated or contradicted by another source, especially an objective one. After a significant part of it is contradicted, then the whole thing becomes too unreliable to use as a source in its' own right. That came with each of the "colour" books, and I say it came and went for the Eye of Odin's tale long ago.

			*	*	*

Aug 01, 2008 11:18 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

...action figures?

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Aug 01, 2008 11:55 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Well, little figurines that he turns into full-grown versions of the Asgardians & Asgard-related bad guys, anyway (including Balder, whose birth as a baby is a key part of the current Thor storyline - and who, along with Sif, grew around the same time as Thor, per Thor: Son of Asgard).

			*	*	*

Aug 02, 2008 4:28 pm 
By ChastMastr

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
As I have mentioned, in the Hyborian Age, the people of Nordheim worshipped an incarnation of the Asgardians.
<<<

So then, if I'm reading this right, we have Viking-ish people in the Hyborian Age who worshipped one iteration of the Asgardians -- and the current (well, most recent before Straczynski, the Kirby ones) iteration was worshipped by the Vikings -- but what about the other at-LEAST-22-maybe-more iterations of Asgard? If we've had the last "crop" (as it were) for the last 2000 years, then does this mean that the 616 actual Norse (not Nordheim) Vikings were only connected to the Kirby iteration, and if the other variants had other worshippers, they were some other tribe or group? 
(Of course, given that the MU has a zillion or so parallel Earths in it, arguably the 24+ other Asgardian incarnations could easily be parcelled out to various other Earths, so maybe some Earth that never had an Avengers at all or met the Kirby Loki, Thor, etc. had Vikings (and/or Nordheimers) that had contact with the Asgardians from Iteration 16, or 32 or whatever else -- unless they really ARE exclusively linked to just Earth 616... of course maybe not all incarnations of the Asgardians went to Earth in the first place or had contact with the Vikings or Viking-like peoples (Nordheim folks etc.).)

David

			*	*	*

Aug 02, 2008 7:01 pm 
By Enda80

"So then, if I'm reading this right, we have Viking-ish people in the Hyborian Age who worshipped one iteration of the Asgardians -- and the current (well, most recent before Straczynski, the Kirby ones) iteration was worshipped by the Vikings -- but what about the other at-LEAST-22-maybe-more iterations of Asgard?"

Ulysses Bloodstone was a Nordheimr Vanir, and he survived into the modern era. Perhaps he worshipped them. 

An issue of Quasar has the Un-being claiming Origin led the Asgardians to Earth.

An article in Savage Sword indicated that the people of Thule may have served as ancestors of the Nordheimr. In Sub-Mariner I#62-63, Kamuu invokes Valhalla. Note that during the later Hyborian Age, Ymir ruled a realm called Valhalla.

			*	*	*

Aug 03, 2008 1:57 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Enda, you may notice that stuff you posted in this topic has vanished. This is because it was completely off-topic. Please, I know you find it difficult, but please TRY and stick to the basic subject of the thread, rather than completely digressing like that as you so often do. Otherwise you may find more posts disappear.

[Also, please try not to make multiple posts in a row. There's occasionally the need for it, but the word is "occasional", not "usually". You originally made three posts in a row here, which is not on.]

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Thread 4

Subject: Black Knight chronology

Aug 03, 2008 1:20 am 
By Tim

Black Knight (Nathan Garrett) is listed as being taken by Zarrko the Tomorrow Man in FF 405 from between Avengers 15 and 16, but reading the issue, the character is clearly Percy, the first Black Knight, who is taken at an unknown time. The Appendix site places it after Marvel Chillers, and has additional issues that could be added to Percy's chronology.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/blackknightpercy.htm

			*	*	*

Aug 03, 2008 9:25 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

I just flipped through FF 405 and the Black Knight appearing there is in Percy's suit; Garrett's suit has a blue cape with crossed swords on his chest, Percy's has a red cape, no crossed swords and a different helmet. 

Welcome to the boards, Tim!

-Daron Jensen

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Thread 5

Subject: Kingpin in ASM 195 -- not BTS

Aug 04, 2008 11:26 am 
By newtron

Kingpin's appearance in ASM 195 isn't BTS. Though obscured by shadow and camera angle, he is shown and speaks on panel.

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Thread 6

Subject: Spidey burglar chronology?

Aug 04, 2008 11:03 am 
By newtron

Hi,

There doesn't seem to be a chronology for the burglar that shot Uncle Ben. I realize he's basically nameless, but I would think he's an important enough character in the MU to deserve a listing.

If there's interest, SpiderFan has a list of (some? all?) appearances by the Burglar, but they are out of order:

Aug 1962 App: Amazing Fantasy #15
Jul 1967 App: Amazing Spider-Man (Vol. 1) #50
Jul 1968 App: Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine #1 (Story 1)
Mar 1971 App: Amazing Spider-Man (Vol. 1) #94
May 1989 App: Spider-Man: Parallel Lives "Spider-Man: Parallel Lives"
Jun 1978 App: Amazing Spider-Man (Vol. 1) #181
Aug 1992 App: Amazing Spider-Man (Vol. 1) #365 (Story 1)
Jun 1992 App: Spectacular Spider-Man (Vol. 1) #189 (Story 1)
Jul 1992 App: Web of Spider-Man #90
Sep 1992 App: Spider-Man (Vol. 1) #26 (Story 1)
Jun 1979 App: Amazing Spider-Man (Vol. 1) #193
Jul 1979 App: Amazing Spider-Man (Vol. 1) #194
Aug 1979 App: Amazing Spider-Man (Vol. 1) #195
Oct 1979 App: Amazing Spider-Man (Vol. 1) #197
Nov 1979 App: Amazing Spider-Man (Vol. 1) #198
Dec 1979 App: Amazing Spider-Man (Vol. 1) #199
Jan 1980 App: Amazing Spider-Man (Vol. 1) #200 Burglar dies
Dec 1998 App: Spider-Man: Chapter One #1
Feb 2001 App: Ultimate Spider-Man #4
Mar 2001 App: Ultimate Spider-Man #5
[source: http://www.spiderfan.org/characters/burglar.html]

He also appears in ASM 170.

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Aug 04, 2008 11:35 am 
By wolframbane

Dec 1998 App: Spider-Man: Chapter One #1
Feb 2001 App: Ultimate Spider-Man #4
Mar 2001 App: Ultimate Spider-Man #5
[source: http://www.spiderfan.org/characters/burglar.html]

Good list man. To note, his appearances in Ultimate SM are not Earth-616 relevant. 

Another question, is Chapter One canon?

			*	*	*

Aug 04, 2008 11:38 am 
By wolframbane

I came across references that the burglar's name is Carradine (such as his daughter named Jessica Carradine). Is this confirmed and if so, from where?

			*	*	*

Aug 04, 2008 11:56 am 
By newtron

oh right, i just copied and pasted without double checking. of course you're right about ultimate. from what i understand, chapter one is also non-canon / non-616 (at least for mcp purposes). on a closer inspection, the list above may actually be relatively close to chronological order, by i can't confirm that.

i haven't come across the burglar being named carradine in my own readings, so i can't confirm that.

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Aug 04, 2008 12:15 pm 
By cweed4

He is still unnamed in Spidey canon. Dennis "Spike" Carradine is his non-continuity name.

I was surprised to see the Burglar does not actually have an entry here. Spiderfan gets most of their appearance lists from the MCP as far as I know. Its not too long of a list to piece together his full chronology if someone wants to take it on. A lot of his backstory is told in ASM 200 so those FB's would be first. That list is missing the extended re-telling of Spidey's origin in PPTSS 60/2 though.

And yes, Chapter One is, thankfully, non-canon.

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Subject: WOSM 11-12 placement

Aug 04, 2008 10:57 am 
By tlynch

The Spider-Man listing currently has WOSM 12 taking place right after PPTSS 110, and given the reference in WOSM 12 to "the Jean DeWolff case" I can see why.

However, the closing page of PPTSS 110 takes place in Peter's apartment, which is explicitly referenced as taking place after WOSM 11, and 12 takes place immediately after 11. (The apartment has also been fixed up by PPTSS 110, and is still a wreck in WOSM 12.)

Thus, I would suggest that WOSM 11-12 take place right in between pages 13 and 14 of PPTSS. The latter page is labeled as "the next morning," but perhaps that could be treated as topical.

On the other hand, Jonah Jameson goes out of town in PPTSS 108 and does not return until page 14 of PPTSS 110, but he appears in WOSM 12.

Yikes. Could it be argued that WOSM 12 takes place DURING the DeWolff storyline, so that the cop in WOSM 12 is talking about "the help he gave in the Jean DeWolff case" up to that point? That's about the only way I can see this working.

Ideas?

TWL

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Aug 04, 2008 12:42 pm 
By cweed4

If the meeting between Spidey & DD didn't take place immediately at the end of PPTSS 110 then WOSM 12 could fit in before that final page. Just don't think of WOSM 12 directly following issue 11. After all, wouldn't the fire+police want some time to investigate the apartment crime scene before letting Pete in to look at the place?

			*	*	*

Aug 04, 2008 1:25 pm 
By tlynch

I have difficulty with the idea that the Spidey/DD meeting isn't immediate, though, given that DD had just called him "Peter" two pages earlier. Were I Spider-Man, I'd want to get to that conversation pretty damn pronto.

TWL

			*	*	*

Aug 04, 2008 7:41 pm 
By cweed4

Herein lies the problem-
tlynch wrote:
>>>
(The apartment has also been fixed up by PPTSS 110, and is still a wreck in WOSM 12.)
<<<

His apartment isn't restored until WOSM 15. He is shown living in the damaged place in each WOSM issue up until then. Clearly if he can sleep in the place he wouldn't worry about having a blind guy over for coffee. 

			*	*	*

Thread 8

Subject: Thor: Son of Asgard

This series has been analysed (#1-6 is in the archive, #7-12 is still in the forum but locked), but neither made placement suggestions. Here's a full MCP listing for the series. Overall, I don't see why it shouldn't be in the MCP - certainly not any less than, say, Earth's Mightiest Heroes.

Notes:
1) Sif's hair. The FB in T:SOA 8 shows how she lost her blonde hair for this series - similar to the previous story in that Loki cuts off her hair and gets Dwarfs to fix it, but she ends up with black hair. The differences are that they're much younger, Loki appears to go to the dwarfs out of guilt with her hair, and the dwarfs appear to be tricking Loki - when it's reattached, it's still blonde, and turns black after a few moments to Loki's shock as well as Sif's. Given that Loki pulls exactly the same stunt with someone else in T 402/2, I'd just suggest that the magical dye job faded eventually, and that he just cuts her hair off again when it does; whereupon it's replaced with "strands of naught" if you want the existing story to stay...
1b) While I'm mentioning Sif... her T@ 5 appearance = whahuh?! Sif meeting Thor for the first time when he's a Mjolnir-wielding adult flying over the Rainbow Bridge to Earth and she's a young child... does that fit with anything else? Ever? Given that the prologue that leads directly into it doesn't seem to be in the MCP, how come that is?
2) T:SOA 10-12 vs JIM 102/2. They work together, honest - there's the odd glitch to rationalise (mostly to do with artistic licence in the clothing), but it's the sort that comes from expanding a five-page montage to a three-issue story, and it's no farther away in terms of dialogue revision than the panels from T 252 which have been inserted into JIM 102/2 already. I've included notes in Thor's chronology to show how it fits together.
3) It's a major part of the current story arc in Thor v3 that Balder was born, as an infant, in the standard way with a mother and a father (who promptly gave him up for adoption, but that's a digression); and Thor flashes back to being a kid with Balder & Loki in T2 83. T:SOA fits together with that current continuity absolutely fine.
4) Agnar - not strictly SOA-related, but there's been three Agnars; the King of the Eagles from JIM 100/2 and RAVEN BANNER; an old man ("Agnar the Fierce") who was one of Heimdall's rivals for the guardianship of the Rainbow Bridge in JIM 104/2 (app. in T:SOA 6, which is why I noticed this) and a young man ("Agnar of Vanaheim") who wanted to kill Balder to prove himself and ended up hero-worshipping him in Walt Simonson's run. Currently, the first two are conflated together and the third isn't in the MCP at all as far as I can see. I've included listings for them in here.

THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON II"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON" [ASGARDIAN]
[...]
**T:SOA 8-FB
T2 1-FB
**T:SOA 1
**T:SOA 2
**T:SOA 3
**T:SOA 4 (1-7)
**T:SOA 10 (18:9)-FB
**T:SOA 4 (8-23)
**T:SOA 5
**T:SOA 10 (18:3)-FB
**T:SOA 6
**T:SOA 7
**T:SOA 8
**T:SOA 9
**T:SOA 10 (18:8)-FB
JIM 100/2
T 252/2-FB (2:3) [looks like a slightly-altered repeat of JIM 100/2 (2:3-2:4) to me...]
JIM 100/2
T@ 11-FB-FB
JIM 100/2
JIM 101/2 (1:1-3:1)
T@ 11-FB-FB (16:1) [looks like a slightly-altered repeat of JIM 101/2 (3:1) to me...]
T 252/2-FB (2:4)
JIM 101/2 (3:2-5:3)
T 252/2-FB (3:1) [actually... he's backslid here. He can't lift it anywhere near as high as he could in JIM 101/2 (5:3). This helps with T:SOA 10 (1-9), where...]
**T:SOA 10 (1-9) [...Balder & Sif learn he can lift the hammer a little bit. He decides to hunt down the Fates/Norns to find out if he'll ever lift it properly]
JIM 102/2 (1) [Thor finds Norns]
**T:SOA 10 (10:2-10:3) [asks the Norns]
JIM 102/2 (2:1) [say he can win it, but will face Death first. Synchonous with T:SOA 10 (10:4), which is slightly altered]
**T:SOA 10 (11) [They vanish. He ponders the exact meaning...]
JIM 102/2 (2:2) [...but won't stop trying]
**T:SOA 10 (12-14) [Rides back to Asgard, sees Storm Giants attack]
JIM 102/2 (2:3) [Tries Mjolnir. Fails]
**T:SOA 10 (15:1-15:3) [Sees wounded Balder...]
JIM 102/2 (2:4-3:1) [...who falls and tells him Sif's been captured]
**T:SOA 10 (15:6:4-21:5) [Odin comes in and orders him to stay behind while they go searching. He sits on the throne, and flashes back to earlier T:SOA events involving Sif. Goes to the room where Mjolnir's kept, and picks it up effortlessly]
JIM 102/2 (3:2) ["LET THE STORM GIANTS BEWARE!". Also T:SOA 10 (22)]
**T:SOA 11 (1&2:1-5:5) [Walks to his horse, carrying Mjolnir, mounts it and rides off.]
T 252/2-FB (3:2) [Storm Giants beware again - this time he's on horseback, unlike JIM 102/2 (3:2) and T:SOA 10 (22)]
**T:SOA 11 (6-7) [Rides through grassland, stops to pick up a piece of Sif's clothing, which he wraps around his wrist. Enters Jotunheim.]
T 252/2-FB (3:3) [Threatens a pair of half-naked Storm Giants in the open,]
JIM 102/2 (3:3-4:2) [Disposes of them by hitting the ground in front of them and rides past. Rides through a gateway toward the castle]
**T:SOA 11 (8:1-19:2) [Confronts another pair of Storm Giants who are guarding the actual entrance. Disposes of them similarly, but smashes the path in the process this time. Flies for the first time to get round that, and forces his way in. Battles past a lot more Storm Giants to reach the King]
JIM 102/2 (4:3-4:4) [Confronts the King himself, a trail of defeated Storm Giants in his wake. Learns Hela has Sif.]
**T:SOA 11 (20-22) [Flies to "the highest peak in Jotumheim", and summons Hela, who holds a manacled Sif in her hands and reminds him of his "death" in T:SOA 6, which Sif saved him from]
**T:SOA 12 (1&2-13) [Thor fights and is soundly defeated by Hela. Hela lets Sif go to him as she gloats. As Hela's about to kill Sif, Thor...]
JIM 102/2 (5:1:1-5:2:1) [...offers to sacrifice himself in her place]
**T:SOA 12 (14:4-14:6) [Sif tells him not to. He tells Sif her life means more to him than his own]
JIM 102/2 (5:2:2) [Hela is shocked by his offer]
**T:SOA 12 (15:3-17) [He tells Hela she's never known love. Hela reaches out...]
JIM 102/2 (5:3) [...but can't go through with it because of the nobility of his gesture, and tells him to go and take Sif with him....]
**T:SOA 12 (18:5:2-22) [...although she warns him their paths will cross again. He & Sif kiss, and he flies off with her in his arms] [Off panel, they go to retrieve his horse]
JIM 102/2 (5:4) [They ride away on horseback, as Hela watches them from afar.]
[...]

SIF [ASGARDIAN]
[...]
**T:SOA 8-FB
T2 1-FB
**T:SOA 1 (1:1-15:1)
**T:SOA 10 (18:6)-FB
**T:SOA 1 (15:2-24:2)
**T:SOA 2 (1:1-14:9)
**T:SOA 10 (18:4)-FB
**T:SOA 2 (14:10-22:2)
**T:SOA 3
**T:SOA 4 (1:1-5:4)
**T:SOA 10 (18:7)-FB
**T:SOA 4 (5:5-7:7)
**T:SOA 10 (18:9)-FB
**T:SOA 4 (8-23)-FB
**T:SOA 5
**T:SOA 10 (18:3)-FB
**T:SOA 6
**T:SOA 7
**T:SOA 8
**T:SOA 9
**T:SOA 10 (18:8)-FB
**T:SOA 10
**T:SOA 11
**T:SOA 12 (1&2-13)
{JIM 102/2 (5:1:1-5:2:1)}
**T:SOA 12 (14:4-14:6)
JIM 102/2 (5:2:2)
**T:SOA 12 (15:3-17)
JIM 102/2 (5:3)
**T:SOA 12 (18:5:2-22)
JIM 102/2 (5:4)
[...]

BALDER [ASGARDIAN]
[T3 10-FB (newborn baby)]
**T:SOA 1
**T:SOA 2
**T:SOA 3
**T:SOA 4
**T:SOA 5
**T:SOA 6
**T:SOA 7
**T:SOA 8
**T:SOA 9
**T:SOA 10 (1-9)
**T:SOA 10 (15:1-15:3)
{JIM 102/2 (2:4-3:1)}
**T:SOA 10 (15:6:4-21:5)
JIM 106/2
[...]

AGNAR THE FIERCE [ASGARDIAN]
{JIM 104/2}
**T:SOA 6

AGNAR, KING OF THE EAGLES [EAGLE]
{JIM 100/2}
RAVEN BANNER

AGNAR OF VANAHEIM [ASGARDIAN]
**T 338
**T 339
**T 340
**T 345
**T 346
**T 347
**T 348
**T 349
**T 360 (1-14)
**BLDR 1
**T 360 (15-22)
**T 361
**T 362
**BLDR 2
**BLDR 3
**BLDR 4
**T 367
**T 368


ENCHANTRESS/AMORA/"HELEN EVE"/"CHRISTINE COLLINS" [ASGARDIAN]
**T:SOA 5
**T:SOA 7
**T:SOA 8
**T:SOA 9
M/SH3 15/2-FB
DEF 108-FB
{JIM 103}
[...]

FANDRAL [ASGARDIAN]
**T:SOA 5
**T:SOA 6
T@ 5
T 401
{JIM 119/2}
[...]

FRIGGA [ASGARDIAN]
T@ 11-FB
**T:SOA 7
**T:SOA 9
T@ 14/4
[...]

**GNORI [SNOW EAGLE]
**T:SOA 3

GOTRON [ASGARDIAN]
JIM 104/2-FB
{JIM 104/2}
**T:SOA 6


**HAKUREI [DRAGON]
**T:SOA 2 (1:1-14:9)
**T:SOA 10 (18:4)-FB
**T:SOA 2 (14:10-22:2)

HELA [ASGARDIAN]
**T:SOA 11
**T:SOA 12 (1&2-13)
{JIM 102/2 (5:1:1-5:2:1)}
**T:SOA 12 (14:4-14:6)
JIM 102/2 (5:2:2)
**T:SOA 12 (15:3-17)
JIM 102/2 (5:3)
**T:SOA 12 (18:5:2-22)
JIM 102/2 (5:4)
DF 3.6
[...]


HEIMDALL [ASGARDIAN]
*{JIM 104/2} (appearances where he's the guardian of the Rainbow Bridge must go *after* this, moving this backward as a result...)
**T:SOA 1 
**T:SOA 5
T@ 5
[...]


HOGUN [ASGARDIAN]
**T:SOA 5
**T:SOA 6
T@ 5
T 401
{JIM 119/2}
[...]

HUGINN [RAVEN] (spelling correction - should end with a double-n)
**T:SOA 1
**T:SOA 8
RAVEN BANNER
{T 337}
[...]

KARNILLA [ASGARDIAN]
[...]
**T:SOA 1 
**T:SOA 2
**T:SOA 3
**T:SOA 4
**T:SOA 5-FB
**T:SOA 5
**T:SOA 6
T@ 5
[...]

LOKI/LOKI LAUFEYSON [ASGARDIAN]
[...]
**T:SOA 8-FB
T2 1-FB
**T:SOA 1
**T:SOA 2
**T:SOA 3
**T:SOA 4
**T:SOA 5-FB
**T:SOA 5
**T:SOA 6
**T:SOA 7
**T:SOA 8
**T:SOA 9
JIM 100/2
[...]

MUNINN [RAVEN] (spelling correction - should end with a double-n)
**T:SOA 1
**T:SOA 8
RAVEN BANNER
{T 337}
[...]

ODIN/ODIN BORSON [ASGARDIAN]
[...]
T 402/2
**T:SOA 1
**T:SOA 5
**T:SOA 6
**T:SOA 7
JIM 100/2
JIM 101/2
T 252/2-FB
T@ 11-FB
**T:SOA 10
T@ 11-FB
[...]

SINDRI [ASGARDIAN DWARF]
**T:SOA 6-BTS
{JIM 108/2}

**TREIBOLD [HORSE]
**T:SOA 11 (1&2:1-5:5)
**T 252/2-FB (3:2)
**T:SOA 11 (6-7)
**T 252/2-FB (3:3)
**{JIM 102/2 (3:3-4:2)}
**T:SOA 11 (8:1-19:2)
**JIM 102/2 (5:4)

VALKYRIE II/BRUNNHILDE/BRUNNHILDA/SISTER BARBARA DENTON NORRISS/GENEVIEVE CROSS [ASGARDIAN]
DEF 109-FB
**T:SOA 7
**T:SOA 8
**T:SOA 9
DEF 109-FB
DEF 108-FB
DEF 109-FB]
M/:LG 5
[...]

VOLSTAGG [ASGARDIAN]
**T:SOA 5
**T:SOA 6
**T:SOA 7
T@ 5
T 401
{JIM 119/2}
[...]

**WYRD [FATE/NORN] (The other two also appear in JIM 102/2, T:SOA 10 and T 348; but don't appear to be named. This listing almost certainly isn't complete)
**{JIM 102/2 (1)}
**T:SOA 10 (10:2-10:3)
**JIM 102/2 (2:1)
**T:SOA 10 (11)
**T 346
**T 347
**T 348
**NMSE 1
**T 374
**T2 85

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Thread 9

Subject: Boomer first appearance

Aug 04, 2008 4:39 pm 
By tlynch

Boomer's first appearance is listed here as XF 11, but SWII #5 takes place well before it.

			*	*	*

Aug 05, 2008 9:30 pm 
By metaldragon

Yes, the Secret Wars II apperance is her first and takes place before her X-Factor one.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thread 10

Subject: Xandarian Worldmind, Protector III, Adora

Jul 25, 2008 9:08 pm 
By Somebody
Director

The Worldmind doesn't currently have a listing, although it predates Annihilation (and yes, it's sentient). I can't swear this is an absolutely full listing, but having gone on a Nova-gathering spree recently, this is as complete a listing as I can give for now (square brackets used as per Key). (As for the names, it's "Computer-PRIME" in NO 8, "Living Computers of Xandar" in the FF and ROM appearances, then both "Living Computers" and "Xandarian Worldmind" are used in New Warriors, with the latter as the major name there and used exclusively in Annihilation & onward)

XANDARIAN WORLDMIND/COMPUTER-PRIME/LIVING COMPUTERS OF XANDAR [CLASS G COLLECTIVE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE]
{NO 8}
FF 205
FF 206
FF 208
FF 209-BTS
ROM 24
NW 40-BTS
NW 41-BTS
NW 42
[ANN:PRO-BTS]
[ANN:NO 1]
[ANN:NO 2]
[ANN:NO 3-VO]
[ANN:NO 4-VO]
[ANN 2-BTS]
[NO4 1]
[NO4 2-VO]
[NO4 3-VO]
[NO4 4]
[NO4 5-VO]
[NO4 6-VO]
[NO4 7]
[NO4 8-VO]
[NO4 9]
[NO4 10-VO]
[NO@ 1-VO]
[NO4 11-VO]
[NO4 12]
[ANNCONQ 6-VO]
[NO4 13]
[NO4 14]
[NO4 15]

And while I'm going through this stuff, a couple of appearances missed for Protector III, and a real name, title and alien race... actually, it should probably be PRIME THORAN/THORAL RUL, with PROTECTOR III as the secondary name, since he's usually referred to as Prime Thoran outside of ROM 24. In addition, a completely unrelated being from NO 8-9 (a female energy being from one million years in the future) has been conflated into the listing and there's no PROTECTOR I or II listed.

PROTECTOR (number?)
NO 8-FB
NO 9

PRIME THORAN/THORAL RUL/PROTECTOR [XANDARIAN]
{FF 205}
*FF 206 (add)
FF 208
FF 209-BTS
ROM 24
*NW 42 (as Worldmind Memory Engram)

And ADORA and ADORA CLONE are oddly separated, with the resurrected Adora's listing starting out with the clone and then going back to the original for no particular reason. It's a resurrection, albeit in a cloned body, rather than a duplicate ala Ben Reilly, so I'd collapse it all to:

ADORA OF XANDAR [XANDARIAN] (Full name per ROM 24 (11:2:2). As for titles, Suzerain is used initially as her title, but it's later switched to Queen and finally to Prime Commandant, so... uh... pick one?)
FF 204-FB
{FF 204}
FF 205
FF 206
FF 208
FF 209
FF 214
ROM 24
A 260
NW 41
NW 42
NO2 1
NO2 14
NO2 15
NO2 17
NO2 18

			*	*	*

Jul 30, 2008 11:52 am 
By metaldragon

Somebody wrote:
>>>
And ADORA and ADORA CLONE are oddly separated, with the resurrected Adora's listing starting out with the clone and then going back to the original for no particular reason. It's a resurrection, albeit in a cloned body, rather than a duplicate ala Ben Reilly, so I'd collapse it all to:

ADORA OF XANDAR [XANDARIAN] (Full name per ROM 24 (11:2:2). As for titles, Suzerain is used initially as her title, but it's later switched to Queen and finally to Prime Commandant, so... uh... pick one?)
FF 204-FB
{FF 204}
FF 205
FF 206
FF 208
FF 209
FF 214
ROM 24
A 260
NW 41
NW 42
NO2 1
NO2 14
NO2 15
NO2 17
NO2 18
<<<

This should probably parallel Professor X and Moondragon's situations where they are both clones of their original bodies with minds/(souls?) intact.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Jul 30, 2008 5:36 pm 
By Enda80

Further examples include Kang, Maelstrom, some members of the Ovoid species, Phaeder, Arnim Zola, perhaps Baron Strucker (he was aware of the process of Zola), the Hate-Monger, Centurious, and the Red Skull (who actually had his mind at one point in a cloned body of Captain America, not a clone of his original body). So far as I know, none of these characters are treated as different from the point after the new body.

Last edited by Enda80 on Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

			*	*	*

Jul 30, 2008 5:46 pm 
By Somebody
Director

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
This should probably parallel Professor X and Moondragon's situations where they are both clones of their original bodies with minds/(souls?) intact.
<<<

Indeed (well, Moondragon's dead again now - but then again, so is Adora). And as those listings aren't split, neither should Adora's be.

			*	*	*

Jul 30, 2008 6:31 pm 
By Enda80

Hey that reminds me, what about Machinesmith? Did his robots somehow manage to capture Starr Saxon's astral form and implant it in a robot? If not, then his soul has passed, and the robot/program calling itself Machinesmith is no more Starr Saxon than Master Mold is Stephen Lang (though that is not a perfectly analogous situation, as Lang still as far as I know remains alive as a vegetable on life support somewhere). 

I have similar questions regarding Jake Fury/Scorpio. 

It seems the astral form matters most for listing, since Kulan Gath made most of his appearances in the body of a person that he usurped with his astral form.

As I recall, the Marauders continually get slain, but Mister Sinister creates clones of them. Has he adapted the Elan/Zola process, or are those clones completely different characters?

Last edited by Somebody on Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total. 

Reason: Merging posts 

			*	*	*

Aug 05, 2008 9:58 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Couple more appearances for Adora..

ADORA OF XANDAR [XANDARIAN]
FF 204-FB
{FF 204}
FF 205
FF 206
FF 208
FF 209
FF 214
ROM 24
**NO3 1-FB (10:1-10:4)
A 260
NW 41
NW 42
NO2 1
NO2 14
NO2 15
NO2 17
NO2 18
**NW2 6-FB (holorecording)

Depending on how absolutely precise you want to be, you may want to credit Firelord for NO3 1-FB (10:5) between A 260 (3:3) and (3:5) - it's an alternate-angle repeat of A 260 (3:4) for Adora, but Firelord was VO-only in the original, while he's fully on-panel in NO3 1-FB (10:5).

And while I'm mentioning Firelord, his alien race is given as "XANDAREAN", rather than XANDARIAN. Since it's the "Xandarian Worldmind", is "Xandarean" an alternate form?

			*	*	*

Thread 11

Subject: Heroes in FANTASTIC FOUR #556

Aug 05, 2008 12:07 pm 
By jannepie

Okay, I've been trying to identify all the characters in FANTASTIC FOUR #556, but there are still a few I don't recognize in pages 12-13. Here's what I have: 

Alyssa Castle, Invisible Woman, Thing, Human Torch,

Hawkeye, some chick, Wonder Man, Iron Fist, Vision, Stature, Yellowjacket, Gauntlet, Black Widow, Patriot, Hulkling, Sentry, Ms. Marvel, Luke Cage, Spider-Man, (what is that purple stuff between Spider-Man and Stature?),

Doc Samson, Iron Man, Black Panther, Storm, Justice, Ares, Wasp, Spider-Woman, Wolverine & Hercules.

There are supposed to be 40 heroes there besides the Fantastic Four, but not all are seen. I saw Doctor Strange and Gravity in later pages, but I didn't see any others. Who are the one(s) I don't recognize and have I missed someone?

			*	*	*

Aug 05, 2008 12:59 pm 
By JD

jannepie wrote:
>>>
some chick
<<<

Namora ?


>>>
(what is that purple stuff between Spider-Man and Stature?)
<<<

A woman's back, clothed in red with a bare midriff. Can't recognize her, though.

			*	*	*

Aug 06, 2008 7:09 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

>>>
Yellowjacket...Spider-Woman
<<<

Well, Skrullowjacket and Skrullder-Woman...  

I think I see War Machine in the bottom right of page 20, panel 1.Paul B.

			*	*	*

Aug 06, 2008 1:08 pm 
By jannepie

Thanks!

The only heroine with a purple/white costume that comes to my mind right now is She-Hulk.

Something doesn't feel right with the half-naked chick being Namora. Namora doesn't have bare shoulders, for example.

			*	*	*

Thread 12

Subject: Spidey's first costume/webshooters

Aug 08, 2008 11:22 pm 
By cweed4

After (finally) reading Parallel Lives recently I decided to take a detailed look at Spider-Man's early chronology. For his origin I did panel-to-panel comparisons from AAF 15, SPECSM 1/2, ASM 94, PPTSS 60/2, and SM:PL.

Anyway, the biggest problem I have trouble resolving deals with the original costume/webshooters for Spidey. In AAF 15, Peter is shown w/ the costume in his room right before designing his webshooters. This also precedes coming up with the name spider-man and putting on the costume. All of this (appears) to take place during the same few moments on one particular evening at home. However, in PPTSS 60/2 he designs his costume at the high school after also creating his webshooters there. It is possible to resolve these conflicting accounts by coming up with time gaps in-between panels. But, this does make a situation in which either the costume or webshooter design in AAF 15 would NOT be the original.

IMO, AAF 15 is THE canon when it comes to Spidey's origin. Thus, all subsequent re-tellings/retcons need to conform to it rather than vice versa. In order to consider PPTSS 60/2 canon then, while minimizing changes to AAF 15, it seems a decision must be made regarding the costume+webshooters. The chronology can be juggled to make either one or neither items "originals" in AAF 15, but not both. I bring this up because the current chronology suggests "neither". The webshooter creation in PPTSS 60/2 (8:6-9:1) is listed prior to its creation in AAF 15 (6:3). Meanwhile, the costume from AAF 15 (6:2) is apparently retconned to the trash heap as Peter goes back to the high school and creates another costume in the subsequent following entries from PPTSS 60/2 (9:5-9:8). 

My suggested chronology would maintain the "originality" of the costume (ie, The costume he is seen stuffing into a drawer when May brings up crackers is the same one he puts on and declares himself Spider-Man in.) It also eliminates Peter's additional trip to Midtown High between panels 6:4 - 6:5 in AAF 15. 

Spidey
ASM 94 (3:6)-FB
PPTSS 60/2 (8:6-9:7)
AF 15 (6:2-6:4)
ASM 94 (3:8-3:9)-FB (added extra panel in which Peter pulls out costume in his room)
PPTSS 60/2 (9:8)
AF 15 (6:5-6:8)

			*	*	*

Aug 09, 2008 6:05 am 
By Enda80

"This also precedes coming up with the name spider-man and putting on the costume."
ASM I#101 and some of Alan Moore's Night Raven stories established that the Spider (Richard Wentworth) magazine got published on Earth-616, so that suggests that Parker had that in mind when he came up with his code-name and costume. Perhaps he came up with the name and costume design, forgot about it, started thinking of the Spider again, then remembered the proposed code name he came up with.

http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/224/spider_returns2.jpg
a possible source for the costume

Last edited by Enda80 on Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

			*	*	*

Aug 09, 2008 9:49 am 
By Russ Chappell
ADMINISTRATOR

AAF I#15 established that spiders actually existed on Earth-616, so that suggests that Parker had them in mind when he came up with his code-name.


watching: womens volleyball

			*	*	*

Thread 13

Subject: King-Size Spider-Man Summer Special

Aug 08, 2008 7:32 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

The first page of King-Size Spider-Man Summer Special states:

"Warning! The following stories did not really happen! (...they don't count for the Spider-Man in Amazing Spider-Man, before or after Brand New Day...)"

This declaration of non-canonicity clearly applies to three of the four stories in the comic, but what about "Street Monsters?"

At first glance, it looks like it could be canonical. It's a Spidey team-up story with the Falcon that appears to date from the period of time after Falcon decided in CA 138 that Spidey wasn't a criminal despite the webhead's reputation and before Falcon got his red and white costume in CA 144. A rather small window.

On second glance, two possible problems are evident:
1) The costume Falcon wears in KSSMSS is not quite identical to his original costume; there are a few color variations here and there. Probably not a big continuity wrecker.
2) Spidey learns in KSSMSS that Sam Wilson is the Falcon. I don't know if a story set later in time (say, M/TU 30?) demonstrates that Spidey does not know the Falcon's identity. Potentially a continuity wrecker, unless the story in KSSMS can be placed later and the costume attributed to a short-lived, never-before-seen change of pace for Falcon.

Does anyone have other observations about this story?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Aug 08, 2008 7:43 pm 
By Russ Chappell
ADMINISTRATOR

Remember the Prime Directive of Canon. For our purposes, a story is canon unless A) it can't be, or B) Marvel says it isn't. Therefore, even if a story could be canon, if Marvel says it didn't happen, then it didn't.


watching: olympics

			*	*	*

Aug 08, 2008 10:15 pm 
By cweed4

Did the opening page happen to mention ASM 545 anywhere?

			*	*	*

Aug 10, 2008 2:01 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Russ wrote:
>>>
if Marvel says it didn't happen, then it didn't.
<<<

True, and if the story in question were the only story in the book, I'd end it there. But I can't help but wonder if "the following stories" pertained to 3 of the 4.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Aug 10, 2008 2:53 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Only if one of the stories preceded the message. You say the message is on p1 = All Non-Canon.

			*	*	*

Thread 14

Subject: Peter Parker: origin

Aug 12, 2008 12:03 pm 
By cweed4

I decided to take a look back at the early chronology for Peter Parker. Aside from adding page/panel breakdowns I did find a few things that needed shifting. The biggest difficuly in analyzing the appearances of a young Peter stem from the confusion about his age at the time of his parents death. This has been depicted or explained to be anywhere from newborn (eg SM:PL) to school-age (eg PPSM2 20). 
My working assumptions, in order to get these conflicting stories to jive, are:
- Peter was dropped off w/ Ben & May numerous times for extended periods
- this started shortly after his birth
- Peter has few memories of his parents because he rarely saw them
- they died when he was 3-4 years old and he was attending some type of pre-scool (at least on occasion)

So, the flashbacks in ASM@ 5 for example get a minor tweak. 
-ASM@ 5 (11:2)-FB-FB: an infant Peter (w/thin hair) with his parents
-ASM@ 5 (11:3)-FB-FB: toddler Peter (w/full head of hair) at airport waving goodbye, occurs a couple years later as this is Richard+Mary's fateful adventure
-ASM@ 5 (11:4-11:6)-FB-FB: Ben & May get the bad news about parent's traitorous death and decide to raise a toddler Peter as he plays with blocks

The biggest move I made was moving up PPTSS -1. This is kind of a Flash Thompson origin story but Peter does not know who Flash is, even by name. All of the Fred Hembeck stories (starting in WOSM@ 5/3) involve Petey and Flash interacting on some level so they have to take place after this story. I also moved AAF 17 (1:1-1:2)-FB to keep it in the same relative position. This flashback clearly occurs years before the following panel, AAF 17(1:3)-FB, which is noted to be from junior high. The shift for S-M -1 which goes along with these moves is based solely on character age depiction. Peter's youthful appearance is not too troubling but George Stacy looks about 30 and Gwen appears to be a little kid.

The placement for TW 2-FB needed to occur after ASM -1 (takes place 3 years before bite) and AAF 17-FB ("junior high") since it is noted to be a high school flashback.

The first page from SM:PL got moved in front of the slideshow in ASM 400 based on the age depictions from the 2 scenes. (It did surprise me to see a listing for just picture slides. It seems that entries for old photographs and such things could make chronologists' heads explode.) 

I took out the FB in PPTSS 225/2 which is an identical scene from SM:PL that came out first. 

Also, there are 3 FB entries for ASM 370/2 and I added a fourth that has Peter crawling w/ his parents around.

The one appearance I can't quite figure out is in PPSM2 1/2-FB. This story appears to contradict Mary-Jane's origin by showing her call Peter by name at a much younger age than when she "saw him for the first time at age 13" (from both ASM 259 + SM:PL). It is also stated that Peter's parents had "been killed the year before" this dialogue takes place. Not much wiggle room to explain away these contradictions. Any thoughts?

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
ASM@ 5 (11:2)-FB-FB removed panel 11:3 which depicts an older Peter
SM:PL (1)-FB infant Peter, must occur before ASM 400-FB which depict a toddler Peter
ASM 370/2-FB (3:6) new scene: baby Peter crawling w/ parents
ASM 400-FB (slides of a young Peter w/ parents)
***** (SM:PL (1) moved up) added FB designation
***** (PPTSS 225/2-FB removed) same scene in SM:PL (1)-FB
ASM@ 5 (11:3 - 11:6)-FB-FB added panel 11:3 since that scene occurs shortly before parents death 
ASM 370/2-FB (4:2) added page/panel breakdowns (eating in highchair after parents death)
PPTSSSS 1/2 (5)-FB added page/panel breakdowns
PPSM2 20 (6-7)-FB added page/panel breakdowns
?PPSM2 1/2 (1-6:1)-FB added page/panel breakdowns?
PPSM2 20 (8)-FB added page/panel breakdowns
PPSM2 33 (8:3-12,22)-FB added page/panel breakdowns
PPTSSSS 1/2 (6)-FB added page/panel breakdowns
ASM 370/2-FB (4:4) added page/panel breakdowns (Peter working in garden w/ May)
PPSM2 20 (9:2-10)-FB added page/panel breakdowns
ASM 81 (7:3)-FB added page/panel breakdowns
PPTSSSS 1/2 (7-8)-FB added page/panel breakdowns
PPSM2 20 (11:1-11:4)-FB added page/panel breakdowns
AAF 17 (1:1-1:2)-FB young Peter has numerous friends at his b-day party
PPTSS -1 Peter doesn't know Flash in this story so it must occur before the Hembeck Petey stories
S-M -1 much younger character depictions for Peter, George Stacy, & Gwen Stacy
WOSM@ 5/3
M/AGE 85
M/TALES 235/2
M/TALES 235/3
M/TALES 248/2
M/TALES 251/2
M/TALES 252/2
PPTSS@ 11/4
UTSM '97/2
UTSM -1/2
PPSM2 33 (14-16)-FB added page/panel breakdowns
TW 1 (14:3-15:4)-FB added page/panel breakdowns
***** (TW 2 (7:2-8)-FB moved down) added page/panel breakdowns
SENSM -1
ASM -1
***** (AAF 17-FB moved up) added page/panel breakdowns
***** (PPTSS -1 moved up)
AAF 17 (1:3)-FB added page/panel breakdowns (occurs during junior high)
***** (S-M -1 moved up)
TW 2 (7:2-8)-FB occurs during high school
PPSM2 27 (12:1-12:2)-FB added page/panel breakdowns
SM:PL (3-4)-FB expanded to include appearance on extra page
ASM@ 1-FB (5:5) added page/panel breakdowns (at museum w/ Ben+May)
ASM 370/2-FB (4:6) added page/panel breakdowns (Peter receiving award)
AAF 17 (1:4)-FB added page/panel breakdowns
{AAF 15 (1 - 2:3)}

			*	*	*

Thread 15

Subject: PPTSS 120 placement

Aug 12, 2008 8:56 pm 
By tlynch

PPTSS is currently listed in Spider-Man's chronology as occurring between ASM @20 and ASM 283, but there are at least two reasons why that's not possible.

1) Spider-Man is in his red suit.
2) More crucially, Glory Grant is still living in Peter's building, and while I don't recall exactly when she moved out, she did so well before this time period. (PPTSS 32, maybe?)

I didn't see any other chronological hints in the story (it being a somewhat generic fill-in from a chronology POV), but I think those two are enough to place the story well before its current placement, possibly dozens of issues beforehand.

TWL

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Aug 13, 2008 5:08 pm 
By tlynch

The chronology currently has ASM 284 taking place after WOSM 23-24, but Spider-Man's first appearance in ASM 284 is explicitly referenced as taking place right after PPTSS 122 (in the first panel in which Spidey appears, even!). 

WOSM 24 does need to take place fairly close to this "Gang War" storyline in ASM 284-288, so I'd recommend that we just swap the two WOSM issues with the PPTSS issue in question. 

Thus, this...

ASM 283
PPTSS 130
PPTSS 121
PPTSS 122
WOSM 23
WOSM 24
PPTSS 125
ASM 284

becomes this...

ASM 283
PPTSS 130
WOSM 23
WOSM 24
PPTSS 121
PPTSS 122
PPTSS 125
ASM 284

(The PPTSS 125 listing is for a two-page moment early in the book; I'm not sure it matters much where that goes, quite frankly.)

Anybody see a problem with that move?

TWL

			*	*	*

Aug 14, 2008 11:50 am 
By tlynch

WOSM 27 is listed as occurring right after WOSM 25, but in WOSM 27 Spider-Man is wearing his red-and-blue threads rather than the black costume. Since this is the period in which there was no red-and-blue costume, it must either take place before WOSM 17 or after ASM 300 -- and since there's absolutely no evidence in the story (an abysmal fill-in, quite honestly) that Peter is married, I'd stick it someplace before WOSM 17. 

TWL

			*	*	*

Aug 14, 2008 12:07 pm 
By cweed4

WOSM 25, WOSM 27 and PP 29 also need shifting around there, too.

			*	*	*

Aug 14, 2008 1:39 pm 
By tlynch

cweed4 wrote:
WOSM 25, WOSM 27 and PP 29 also need shifting around there, too.

How so? I don't own PP 29, but WOSM 25 seems about as generic-black-costume as you can get.

			*	*	*

Aug 15, 2008 9:48 pm 
By cweed4

 How about this?

PPTSS 106
WOSM 27
SWII 2

This keeps it after ASM 259 (return of classic costume) and before WOSM 17 (black suit only). These 2 issues present a convenient story gap w/out having to go pre-ASM 252. The only other continuity clue is Peter freelancing for the Bugle but that certainly doesn't narrow it down. I agree that it definitely seems to be a single Peter story. Hopefully this works because I wouldn't really want to re-read this comic again.


Regarding PP 29, it has Spidey (black suit) facing Hobgoblin, who comments that he is on assignment for his partner the Rose. The problem is they split up at the end of ASM 286. So, this appearance has to be moved ahead of that. The best fit would keep it in front of the whole "Gang War' storyline in ASM 284-288.

I have no problem putting PPTSS 122 after the second entry for WOSM 23 and WOSM 24. (Any particular reason why you're moving PPTSS 121 along with it?)

But, if you're going to move PPTSS 122 because it directly leads into ASM 284 then the initial listing for PPTSS 125 has to occur prior to it as well. That's actually a good thing though. Peter gets an eviction notice from Mrs. Muggins in that issue which conflicts with the earlier listing of M/FAN 42. That story, in which Peter mentions only having 2 more days before his eviction, has to be placed after the PPTSS 125 entry. So, just move #122 down past all of this and you get-

SPIDEY
PPTSS 121
WOSM 23 (11-24) added page breakdown
WOSM 24
PPTSS 125(1-13) added page breakdown
PP 29
M/FAN 42
PPTSS 122
ASM 284
ASM 285
ASM 286
ASM 287 (1-4) added page breakdown
PPTSS 123
FF 299
ASM 287
ASM 288
WOSM 25
PPTSS 125 (14-23) added page breakdown

As for WOSM 25 that is simply a better fit move. I don't like to break up a continuing story (eg Gang War) unless other issues are specifically referenced during them (eg PPTSS 123). This particular (bad) comic is a clear stand alone story with virtually no continuity references. It could easily be moved down to avoid further story interruption.

Last edited by cweed4 on Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total. 

			*	*	*

Aug 16, 2008 12:27 am 
By cweed4

Back to your original question, I think I can find a place for PPTSS 120. Glory Grant does indeed move out of Peter's apartment building in PPTSS 32. My main assumption for placement is that Glory is not working for the Bugle issue 120. This is based solely on the scenes of Peter at the Bugle conferring w/ Robbie and Glory is nowhere in sight. This puts it at least prior to PPTSS 2 and probably before being fired from her modeling agency (ASM 158). That gets it pretty close to her first appearance in ASM 140. 

A convenient side note here is that in "current" issues of Spidey comics Joe Robertson is the EIC at the Bugle (ever since ASM 251). So when Pete goes to the Bugle and deals w/ Robbie instead of JJJ in #120 that might need an explanation. Luckily, at the end of ASM 142 jolly Jonah takes off out of town for awhile. This makes for a nice little fit in-between stories to place this flashback issue. It also allows for a few interactions between Peter and Glory before the events of this story.

Spidey
ASM 141
ASM 142
PPTSS 120
M/TU 31
GSS-M 4

GRANT, GLORIA "GLORY" 
{ASM 140} added 1st app. brackets
M/TU 30
ASM 142
PPTSS 120
ASM 158
ASM 163
PPTSS 1
ASM 164
PPTSS 2

ROBERTSON, JOE "ROBBIE"
ASM 141
ASM 142
PPTSS 120
ASM 143
ASM 144

MUGGINS, MAMIE
ASM 139
ASM 142
PPTSS 120
ASM 143
ASM 156
ASM 163

			*	*	*

Aug 16, 2008 9:18 am 
By Russ Chappell
ADMINISTRATOR

cweed4 wrote:
>>>
My main assumption for placement is that Glory is not working for the Bugle issue 120. This is based solely on the scenes of Peter at the Bugle conferring w/ Robbie and Glory is nowhere in sight.
<<<

Make your assumptions based on evidence, rather than lack of evidence. The more likely assumption is that Glory is nowhere in sight because the story doesn't require her. We would prefer that stories be placed as close to their publication date as possible.


>>>
GRANT, GLORIA "GLORY" 
{ASM 140} added 1st app. brackets
<<<

Brackets are only added to first published appearances when the first published appearance is not the same as the chronologically first appearance.


watching: olympics

			*	*	*

Aug 16, 2008 10:27 am 
By cweed4

Administrator wrote:
>>>
Brackets are only added to first published appearances when the first published appearance is not the same as the chronologically first appearance.
<<<

Okey-dokey.


Administrator wrote:
>>>
Make your assumptions based on evidence, rather than lack of evidence. The more likely assumption is that Glory is nowhere in sight because the story doesn't require her. We would prefer that stories be placed as close to their publication date as possible.
<<<

I would have preferred it wasn't so complicated. However, the issue in question came out in 1986 while she moved out 7 years earlier (real time) during PPTSS 32 (released in '79). Since we have to go back by that much time just to start looking for placement I don't think such preferences need be considered any more. The suggested placement goes back another 4 years to the release of ASM 142 in 1975. That doesn't seem like much more of a stretch. 

Besides, Glory's appearance, while limited to just a few panels, is important to the story. She acts as the conscience of this morality tale that nudges Peter's involvement into the situation. In that sense I interpreted her absense from the Bugle scene to be a relevent hint. As tlynch noted, there really is no other continuity clues to go on here.

			*	*	*

Thread 16

Subject: X-Men: First Class v2 #12-15

May 23, 2008 7:45 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Preview: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page ... disp=table

Chronological stuff: X:FC 8 is referenced, Angel's parents show up (in a recent FB).

			*	*	*

May 27, 2008 12:57 pm 
By metaldragon

Tricky. Jean talks with Cerebro so post-UX 12. Warren's parents appear but this looks like it's the first time they meet Warren's "classmates" so it would have to be before UX 18, unless Professor X did some serious memory wiping on them there. UX 18 reads like Warren's parents had met them already and didn't need to be introduced so it looks like this needs to go in the UX 13-14 spot again. Or to be more specific, X:FC2 9 & UX 14.

Oh, and Warren's father must have grown his moustache between his appearance here and UX 17! lol!

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

May 27, 2008 1:16 pm 
By metaldragon

Uh oh. Just noticed the reference to X:FC 8! Looks like THAT will have to be moved or the Worthingtons got their mind wipe!

If it's the "move" situation, things may now look like:

UX 12-13
X:FC 7-FB
XMF 3
X:FC 7
X:FC 8-FB
X:FC 8
X:FC2 2
X:FC2 3
X:FC2 3/2
X:FC2 6/2
X:FC2 9
X:FC2 12
UX 14-18
X:FC 2
X:FC 3
X:FC2 4
[moved]
X:FC2 6
X:FC2 7
X:FC2 8
X:FCS 1/5-FB
X:FC2 1
UX 19

So yea, I guess the references in U:FC 7 that Professor X was away on vacation refered to his trip to Africa after all! 

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

May 30, 2008 2:42 pm 
By metaldragon

Further uh oh now that I've got the issue... Warren stays in Brazil at the end of this issue and may not be back for a while from the sound of it. I wonder how long this story arc will last? How much time is there between UX 13 & 14 again...?

I noticed another little point... Wanda sends Jean a letter. So this is definitely after UX 11 and probably when W & P are in the Balkans before Magneto tracks them down (M/H&L 97). Otherwise, if it's set later, Wanda could just pick up a phone from the Avengers Mansion or the cabin in X:FC2 7 and give Jean a call if she wanted to (or, since this is "modernized", email or text message)."May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

May 30, 2008 8:39 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Notably, next issue's cover appears to be story-related rather than generic like the last few (it's by Cruz, who's also doing the main story for the two-parter, rather than Pags) - and Angel's the only absentee from the five. [Pags generic covers resume with #15, which shows Angel]

			*	*	*

Jun 01, 2008 9:25 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
X:FC2 9
X:FC2 12
UX 14-18
<<<

Actually, X:FC2 12-FB needs to go just before X:FC2 12.


metaldragon wrote:
>>>
How much time is there between UX 13 & 14 again...?
<<<

Presumably both 13 and 14 occur during the June of Peter Parker's graduation from high school and Reed and Sue's wedding.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jun 01, 2008 10:36 am 
By metaldragon

Oh right! Actually... I noticed there are 2 flashbacks. The second one, where Warren's parents tell him about Mimi, takes place between panels of the first one.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Jun 01, 2008 1:29 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Doesn't the second flashback occur completely after the first?
X:FC2 12-FB (2:2-3:5)
X:FC2 12-FB (4:3)
X:FC 12

And FWIW, the story occurs "a week and a half" after Mimi sent Warren a postcard.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jun 04, 2008 1:52 pm 
By metaldragon

[edit: Re-read. Never mind...]

Oh, and there's yet ANOTHER flashback bit: Warren as a child getting a post card from Mimi. Not sure when that might take place.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Jun 26, 2008 2:17 pm 
By metaldragon

I guess this topic should be retitled #12-14 at least (possibly 15 even) because of the ongoing plotline with Angel being away.

This issues guest stars Dr. Stack, Machine Man (only called Aaron here, and referred to as one of the X-series robots), and FBI agent Baker (who appeared previously in X:FC2 10 if I remember correctly).

There is a flashback to Thor battling a Lava Man, so this story must take place chronologicly after that. Does anyone know which issue that took place in and which issue of UX it took place around calender-wise?

The back-up strip is an interesting one. It has a flashback to the first meeting between Professor X and agent Baker. Not sure when that would go. Possibly durning X:FC 2 while Professor X was away at a conference? It shows agent Baker has earned the trust of "other underground subjects" like Daredevil (drawn wearing his original Yellow and Red costume), and has connections with "many powerful figures in the world" including: the Stranger, Black Bolt, Mr. Fantastic, [a woman with blond/white hair/light coloured hair, anyone know who this might be?], Ikaris, Iron Man, and Gorilla Man (I guess, interesting outfit he's wearing...).

If this strip takes place in reality and isn't just metaphorical, it will probably need to take place after X:FC 14 as Jean only just met him for the first time here.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Jun 26, 2008 7:00 pm 
By Enda80

Lava Men appearances in JIM#97 and Avengers I#5.

Machine Man's appearance should not cause the granny knots in continuity that the Man-Thing appearance did.

			*	*	*

Jun 26, 2008 11:31 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

X-51 #12 (4)-FB is where Abel Stack begins research into artificial life. 

X-51 #12 (5)-FB is where X-29 is created.(Abel Stack is present) Unlike the previous attempts in the X-series, which were all insane, this one is insane & homicidal. Col. Kragowski and his military unit destroy it.

2001 #8 begins with X-35 asking why he was constructed, which leads directly into Dr. Broadhurst making the decision to detonate all of the X-series robots... within 30 minutes! One by one the remaining X-series robots detonate and Broadhurst mentions he told Stack of the decision.(it's also noted that X-51 has been staying with Stack for a while, he sees him like a son) Meanwhile, Abel Stack gives Aaron(X-51) his new face,("the number on my forehead is gone... and with the exception of my eyes... I - I don't look different anymore!") removes the bomb in him and sends Aaron off.("Anti-gravity... he solved the secret with amazing ease!") The bomb explodes and Abel Stack dies. All within 30 minutes of page 1. 

In X-Men: First Class v2 #13, we have X-51 hanging out with Abel Stack, so this has to go before 2001 #8, but he already has a face. That's not too much of a problem; Abel does say it's his NEW face, meaning the one in 2001 #8 could be an improved version of the one in X: FC2 13, but we'll have to fudge the bit where Aaron is excited that the number on his face is gone...

So: 

STACK, ABEL 
X51 12-FB 
*X: FC2 13
2001 8 

MACHINE MAN/X-51/AARON STACK 
*X: FC2 13
{2001 8}
2001 9

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jun 27, 2008 12:56 pm 
By metaldragon

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Lava Men appearances in JIM#97 and Avengers I#5.

Machine Man's appearance should not cause the granny knots in continuity that the Man-Thing appearance did.
<<<

I suspect it's the JIM#97 appearance and not the Avengers I#5. The rest of the Avengers are not mentioned in the flashback only Thor. Also this Lava Man spoke which is rare I gather. Did the Lava Men in the Avengers issue speak?

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Jun 27, 2008 5:37 pm 
By Somebody
Director

They were positive chatterboxes in the Avengers issue.

			*	*	*

Jun 27, 2008 8:44 pm 
By metaldragon

Just re-read it (Yay Essentials!). Definately not the story referred to in X:FC2 13. It must be the JIM 97 story they're talking about then.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Jul 31, 2008 2:47 am 
By metaldragon

A couple of new things...

Looks like this storyline continues into X:FC2 15. The teaser at the end implies that Medusa will make an appearance!

It is revealed at the end that the "Aaron Stack" in this issue is actually X-50. Likely his "neural engine", as Dr. Stack calls it, is re-used and rebuilt into the X-51 unit aka Machine Man since he is also named "Aaron Stack". Note: X-50 is never referred to as "Machine Man" in this story so if it's decided that X-50 gets a separate entry from X-51 he should only be referred to as X-50 and Aaron Stack, not Machine Man. The last panel of this story shows X-51 in the process of being built so this may be a new panel and would fit between panels of Machine Man's origin. Anyone know?

The second story has pages 2 & 3 switched (it shows Bobby and Professor X joining the conversation on page 3 yet they are already there on page 2 as things stand now). It also shows a panel of what might be the fight with Ymir from X:FC 5. That would push the placement of that issue sometime before this storyline which makes things awkward with the Blackbird jet. Other events referenced: The Lizard (X:FC 2, no new info), Monster Island (X:FC2 2-3), Warren & Wanda's romance + Angel & Quicksilver's fight (X:FC 7, nothing new), Angel flying out the window to avoid an exam on the Introduction to Ethics in Intercultural Economics (new, needs a placement), Warren bringing them pizza (also new), Angel caught in Spider-Man's web (new, possibly First Class story that hasn't "happened" yet? wearing First Class uniform), the aftermath of Hank & Bobby's road trip (X:FC2 4, this is new, should fit shortly after the last panel of that story), Angel rolls Blob down a river (new, possibly First Class event that hasn't happened yet? Blob is wearing his post-UX 141 unitard with belt instead of his usual shorts from this period), Angel pulls off Magneto's helmet (has he ever done this? I know he's pulled off Juggernaut's helmet. Possibly First Class event that hasn't happened yet?), Angel tries to rescue Marvel Girl by grabbing her ankles and her costume (First Class version) rips off from the waist down & she falls into some bushes while Angel is left holding the bottom half of it.

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Jul 31, 2008 8:12 pm 
By Somebody
Director

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
It also shows a panel of what might be the fight with Ymir from X:FC 5. That would push the placement of that issue sometime before this storyline which makes things awkward with the Blackbird jet.
<<<

Repeat of X:FC 5 (15:4) from an alternate angle, with a bit of a glitch (the X:FC2 14/2 panel shows them just in their FC costumes - but the X:FC 5 panel has them wearing big coats over their costumes). Ways to spin this glitch into it being a completely different story would be appreciated.

Presumably, next issue will see Angel returning since they haven't commissioned a cover without him, as they did for this two-parter. Here's the solicit text:
>>>
Is she a bad girl? Is she a mutant? Does even she know what or who she is? Is that her real hair? The mysterious MEDUSA has escaped the reach of the Fantastic Four, only to run right into the home of the Uncanny X-Men! 
<<<

That appears to narrow placement significantly all by itself, if it's before the other Inhumans find her...

			*	*	*

Aug 01, 2008 8:43 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
It is revealed at the end that the "Aaron Stack" in this issue is actually X-50. Likely his "neural engine", as Dr. Stack calls it, is re-used and rebuilt into the X-51 unit aka Machine Man since he is also named "Aaron Stack". Note: X-50 is never referred to as "Machine Man" in this story so if it's decided that X-50 gets a separate entry from X-51 he should only be referred to as X-50 and Aaron Stack, not Machine Man. 
<<<

Not so. X-50 is referred to as "Machine Man" twice -- once on the recap page and once by X-50 himself; they're his final words, in fact. So does this make X-50 both Machine Man I and Aaron Stack I, with X-51 being Machine Man II and Aaron Stack II?


I now have so many versions of X:FC and X:FC2 chronology that I've lost track of where we are on this. Does anyone have an updated, accurate chronology... perhaps annotated?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Aug 03, 2008 8:57 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Boy am I glad that I didn't read this until I read the issue!  I really enjoyed these two issues. I didn't see the twist coming, and it ties in very neatly with Machine Man's origin. I especially liked X-50's reaction to losing his face and Abel's decision to deal with that in his next X-series robot.


Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
So does this make X-50 both Machine Man I and Aaron Stack I, with X-51 being Machine Man II and Aaron Stack II?
<<<

Absolutely: 

STACK, ABEL 
X51 12-FB 
*X: FC2 13
*X: FC2 14
2001 8 

MACHINE MAN/X-50/AARON STACK
X: FC2 13
X: FC2 14

MACHINE MAN II/X-51/AARON STACK II
*X: FC2 14
{2001 8}
2001 9

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Aug 06, 2008 12:26 am 
By metaldragon

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
metaldragon wrote:
>>>
It is revealed at the end that the "Aaron Stack" in this issue is actually X-50. Likely his "neural engine", as Dr. Stack calls it, is re-used and rebuilt into the X-51 unit aka Machine Man since he is also named "Aaron Stack". Note: X-50 is never referred to as "Machine Man" in this story so if it's decided that X-50 gets a separate entry from X-51 he should only be referred to as X-50 and Aaron Stack, not Machine Man. 
<<<

Not so. X-50 is referred to as "Machine Man" twice -- once on the recap page and once by X-50 himself; they're his final words, in fact. So does this make X-50 both Machine Man I and Aaron Stack I, with X-51 being Machine Man II and Aaron Stack II?


I now have so many versions of X:FC and X:FC2 chronology that I've lost track of where we are on this. Does anyone have an updated, accurate chronology... perhaps annotated?
<<<

Woops! You're right. Missed the "recap" bit on the first page of this issue where it says "Machine Man's joined the team". Thanks! I just took Aaron's final words to be a nudge-wink from the writer, the core of his "cognitive dissonance" spoken out loud that actually "gives" the future X-51 his hero name. Sigh. Here's me thinking Mr. Parker was being clever!


So... if we count the second story as being cannon, that places this story arc (X:FC2 12-15-ish) in the post-UX 18 area. Which means Warren's parents get mind wiped after UX 18 and meet Warren's "classmates" again for the 1st time in X:FC2 12. Ouch.

That, or it looks like X:FC 2 & X:FC2 4 are going into the gap between UX 13 & 14 which drives the final nail in the coffin for the first 2 pages and first panel of page three in UX 14. I wish there had been another way...

OK... I'll attempt an updated chronology...

UX 1
XFC2 5/2 (Ouija board)
UX 2
X:FC2 5 (Hulk) ...or is this between UX 1 & 2?
A 3
UX 3
[]
UX 7 (1-6, p3)
X:FC 1-FB (Bobby discovers Scott can't shut off powers and that Cyclops has been made team leader.)
UX 7 (6, p4-on)
UTSM 21
UTSM 97
UX 8
X:FC 6-FB
X:FC 6 (Skrulls)
UX 9
UX 10
X:FC2 10-FB
X:FC2 10 (Scott solo mission) - This (and the flashback) might have to move if the X:FC2 13/2-FB takes place during X:FC2 2-3.
UX 11
UX 12
UX 13
XMF 3
X:FC 1 (Arctic "field trip"/Iceman's letter)
*X:FC 2 (Lizard) ~ X:FC2 14/2-FB
[possible placement for X:FC 5?]
X:FC 7-FB
X:FC 7 (Angel & Scarlet Witch romance) ~ X:FC2 14/2-FB
X:FC 8FB
X:FC 8 (Gorilla Man) 
X:FC2 2-3 (Mastermind/Monster Island) ~ X:FC2 14/2-FB
X:FC2 3/2 (Jean & Wanda hang out)
*X:FC2 4 (Bobby & Hank road trip)
X:FC2 14/2-FB (W confronts B & H about his water filled car)
X:FC2 6/2 (Jean & Wanda vs Moleman)
X:FC2 9 (Black Widow & S.H.I.E.L.D.)
X:FC2 12-FB
X:FC2 12 (Aunt Mimi/Worthingtons meet X-Men for 1st time)
X:FC2 13-14 (Machine Man)
X:FC2 14/2 (remembering Angel)
X:FC2 15 (Medusa) - coming soon!
UX 14 (1-6)
FF@ 3 ~ M/H&L 1 ~ MARVELS 2
UX 14 (7-20)
UX 15
[]
UX 18
*[X:FC 2 moved]
X:FC 3 (Cerebro malfunction)
*[X:FC2 4 moved]
X:FC2 6 (Sentinels/alien comet)
X:FC2 7 (Sentinels/alien comet)
X:FC2 8 (Man-Thing) ~ X:FC2 11-FB (Mysterio BTS stealing swamp water)
X:FCS 1/5-FB (Dragon Man)
X:FC2 1 (FF)
UX 19
X:FC2 11 (Mysterio)
UX 20
UX 21
UX 22
[]
UX 39
X:FC 5 (Thor) - this may have to move before X:FC2 14/2...
X:FC 4 (Dr. Strange)
X:FCS 1/1 (Museum of Oddities)
X:FCS 1/3 (Bernard the poet) - it's possible these 2 stories could fit between UX 18 & 19 too if Professor X shuts down Bernard's powers...
UX 40

Not sure where the exam, pizza, Spider-Man, Blob, Magneto, and costume ripping rescue flashbacks belong. At least we know the Magneto one must go before UX 11. Possibly during their off-panel "appearance" in JIM encounter with Magneto? The Blob appearance has to be sometime after UX 7 (where he regains his memory). If that other flashback isn't the Ymir/Thor story, it might be a new incident. Hmm. There IS a short story in the "Five Decades of the X-Men" short story anthology about a guy with frost powers that takes place shortly after UX 1...  

So... makes sense?


PS. I guess X:FC2 12/2 could go just before the main story. Anyone know where the Angel flashbacks belong? Or do we treat this story like the the strips in the Special?"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Aug 22, 2008 3:03 am 
By dimadick

metaldragon wrote:
>>>
Medusa appears here sometime before FF 44. I don't know the FF stories well I'm afraid. She describes that the Wizard had used a mind control device on the Thing in the Frightful 4's last encounter with the FF. She manages to escape at the end of that story in one of the Wizard's (damaged) flying saucers by herself. Which issue of FF is this? Does this take place before or after FF@3? That will cause more shuffling of this story arc if it's after. The Wizard manages to escape the police (without the rest of the Frightful 4) and follow her.

X:FC2 15 ends with her leaving, possibly with the Wizard (she steals one of Xavier's cars!) to find the FF. It's possible the Wizard manages to get mind control over her again after this if there are more stories with her still as a member as the Frightful 4 after the story described above.
<<<

Her only appearances as a member of the Frightful Four are "Fantastic Four" vol. 1 #36 (March, 1965), "Fantastic Four" vol. 1 #38 (May, 1965), "Journey Into Mystery" vol. 1 #116 (May, 1965), "Fantastic Four" vol. 1 #41 - 45 (August - December, 1965). So the X-Men story should fit between this hand full of appearances. 

Note that #36 is the issue where Reed Richards and Susan Storm publicly announce their engagement. In attendance at the engagement party were Alicia Masters, Angel, Beast, Captain America, Cyclops, Giant-Man, Human Torch, Iceman, Iron Man, Marvel Girl, Professor X, Rick Jones, Thing, Thor and Wasp. Spider-Man was not invited but does make a cameo, stealing a piece of cake. No mind control for the Thing. 

#38, involves the Frightful Four luring their Fantastic counterparts to an uninhabited island where the Wizard has placed a nuclear bomb. They escape and leave the Fantastic team to face the music. The bomb does explode but an early use of Susan's force fields shields them from much of its effects. They are just left unconcious and their powers are temporarily turned off. No mind control involved. 

#116 is a mere cameo and no member of the Fantastic Four is actually involved. 

In #41, the Thing quits the Fantastic Four and moves to New Jersey. Where he is located by the Frightful Four and falls under the influence of their "hypnosis machine". When the Fantastic Three come in pursuit of their former member, they find themselves under attack by five opponents and are easily defeated. The issue ends with the Wizard convincing the Thing that Mr. Fantastic is responsible fr turning him into a monster and ruining his life. So it is only fail that the Thing should take revenge, killing his former ally. The issue ends in a cliffhanger over the fate of Reed. So there is where the mind control comes in. The X-Men tale has to follow it. 

In #42, while the Frightful Five are focused on Mr. Fantastic, the Invisible Girl and the Human Torch escape their bonds and counter attack. They manage to free Reed who rejoins the fight. A complex struggle follows. By the end of the issue Reed and Susan have captured Ben and are transporting him back to base using anti-gravity disks they stole from the Wizard. Wizard has brainwashed Johnny and the two of them give chase to the Richards-Storm couple. Medusa, Sandman and Trapster are out for the count. The issue ends in a cliffhanger. 

In #43, the other members of the Frightful Four recover and find out the Human Torch is actually faking his hypnosis. They gang up on him and take him prisoner. Reed and Susan manage to deprogram Ben. By the end of the issue the Fantastic Four are back together. Sandman, Trapster and Wizard have been captured and offered to the police. Medusa alone escapes. I guess the X-Men story immediately follows. Reed and Susan comment on their scheduled wedding. 

The storyline is interrupted by the wedding of Mr. Richards and Ms. Storm in "Fantastic Four Annual" #3 (1965). For some reason no member of the Frightful Four attends the wedding. The storyline continues in #44 where Medusa is the only Frightful member to appear. She is being pursued by fellow Inhuman Gorgon and recruits the Dragon Man to defend herself. entire building to collapse under the FF's feet. 

In #45, Sandman and Trapster are stuck in the same cell, waiting for Medusa to rescue them. Wizard is unaccounted for. Medusa has a family reunion involving Black Bolt, Crystal, Gorgon, Karnak, Lockjaw and Triton. At this point she rejoins the Inhumans and leaves her teammates hanging. 

I would suggest the X-Men story to be placed between FF #43 and #44. How more obvious coult it get?

			*	*	*

Aug 22, 2008 7:17 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

It most definitely does have to occur between FF 43 and 44. From the look of things, XFC2 15 appears to begin the day after FF 43, but this may not be so.

Metaldragon places XFC2 15 just before UX 14 in the X-Men's chronology. The Official Marvel index to the Fantastic Four places UX 13 after FF 43, which means that the tail end of UX 11 must occur after FF 43.

So if we go by metaldragon's chronology, all of these stories occur between FF 43 and 44:
UX 11
UX 12
UX 13
XMF 3
X:FC 1 (Arctic "field trip"/Iceman's letter)
*X:FC 2 (Lizard) ~ X:FC2 14/2-FB
[possible placement for X:FC 5?]
X:FC 7-FB
X:FC 7 (Angel & Scarlet Witch romance) ~ X:FC2 14/2-FB
X:FC 8FB
X:FC 8 (Gorilla Man) 
X:FC2 2-3 (Mastermind/Monster Island) ~ X:FC2 14/2-FB
X:FC2 3/2 (Jean & Wanda hang out)
*X:FC2 4 (Bobby & Hank road trip)
X:FC2 14/2-FB (W confronts B & H about his water filled car)
X:FC2 6/2 (Jean & Wanda vs Moleman)X:FC2 9 (Black Widow & S.H.I.E.L.D.)
X:FC2 12-FB
X:FC2 12 (Aunt Mimi/Worthingtons meet X-Men for 1st time)
X:FC2 13-14 (Machine Man)
X:FC2 14/2 (remembering Angel)
X:FC2 15 (Medusa)
UX 14 (1-6)
FF@ 3 ~ M/H&L 1 ~ MARVELS 2
UX 15
[]
UX 18

That means Medusa was wandering around in the hovercraft she stole from the Wizard for quite a while after FF 43. Cyclops' remark in XFC2 15 that the FF "just incarcerated" the Frightful Four needs a liberal interpretation of "just." And the Wizard took his time tracking Medusa down after busting free of the police in the hospital after FF 43.

All the above stories would have to occur during a fairly short period of time during the June that Reed and Sue were married.

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Aug 23, 2008 10:35 am 
By metaldragon

From the time references in this run of First Class, I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't at least 3 weeks of events taking place between UX 13 & 14. Can that much time take place between FF 43 & 44? I realize that both FF and UX Indexes place UX 13 between those two issues but is it at all possible that Torch's appearance in UX 13 couldn't fit in a gap closer to just after FF 36 to give these stories a bit more breathing room or is there a reference there which locks it in stone?

"May the Light shine forever!"

			*	*	*

Thread 17

Subject: Peter Parker's book tour

Aug 23, 2008 11:37 am 
By tlynch

There seems to be a bit of a mixup in the official chronology so far as Peter's book tour circa 1988 is concerned.

He first hears about the book in ASM 304, and is off to LA later that same issue on a pre-publication tour -- yet PPTSS 142, currently listed as earlier, has both Peter and Tombstone referencing the book as already published. 

I'm having trouble seeing how PPTSS integrates here, as there don't seem to be any obvious break points in the middle of the first Tombstone/Robbie storyline. Anybody have any thoughts?

TWL

			*	*	*

Aug 23, 2008 4:38 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Doesn't the book signing tour coincide with the RELEASE of Webs, rather than being an amorphous pre-publication tour? (I definitely remember a scene in the tour with him signing books for customers, and MJ sneaking into the queue and putting a Supergirl issue in front of him he'd been looking at earlier)

			*	*	*

Aug 23, 2008 8:25 pm 
By tlynch

It began before the book was published; the tour began in ASM 304, and Peter saw the first proper copy of the book in ASM 305.

			*	*	*

Aug 24, 2008 10:37 pm 
By cweed4

Here was my suggestion from a bit ago. (Just make the first 9 pages of ASM 304 a new entry.)

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3347

			*	*	*

Aug 25, 2008 9:15 pm 
By tlynch

That seems to work well enough -- thanks!

			*	*	*

Thread 18

Subject: July call for analyses

Jul 08, 2008 7:02 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

At least, here's the July call. Let me know if you'd like to volunteer for any of the unassigned issues and story arcs. And if I've messed up any assignments or citations, I'm sure you guys will tell me.  

As always, analyses are much appreciated!

Completed stories (as of 7/1/08)
ClanDestine v2 #1-5 (Don)
Daredevil: Battlin Jack Murdock #1-4 (JD)
Daredevil: Dead On Arrival (Jeph)
Foolkiller v2 #1-5
Immortal Iron Fist #10-14 (Don)
Immortal Iron Fist #15-16 (Don)
Moon Knight v5 #14-19 (Deuce)
X-Men Origin: Colossus (wolframbane)

Future stuff
Amazing Spider-Man Family #1 (Michael)
Angel: Revelations #1-5
Big Hero 6 #1-5
Daredevil v2 #107-110 (Col_Fury)
Daredevil v2 #111-? (Col_Fury)
Dead of Night Featuring Devil Slayer #1-4
Eternals, v4 #1-? (Col_Fury)
Foolkiller: White Angels #1-5
Franklin Richards: Summer Smackdown!
Ghost Rider v6 #26 (Col_Fury)
Ghost Rider v6 #27-? (Col_Fury)
Ghost Rider Annual #2 (Col_Fury)
Guardians of the Galaxy v2 #1-3
Immortal Iron Fist #17-20
Immortal Iron Fist: Orson Randall and the Death Queen of California
Immortal Iron Fist: The Origin of Danny Rand
Marvel 1985 #1-6
Marvel Apes #1-4
Moon Knight v5 #20 (Deuce)
Nova v4 #13-15
NYX: No Way Home #1-6
Punisher v7 #56-60 (Col_Fury)
Punisher v7 #61-?
Punisher War Journal v2 #18-23
Runaways v3 #1-? (JD) 
Skaar: Son of Hulk #2-? (Kevin)
Skaar: Son of Hulk Presents: Savage World of Sakaar
Sub-Mariner: The Depths #1-4 [pre-FF 1]
True Believers #1-5
Venom: Dark Origin #1-5
Wolverine v3 #66-73 (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: Killing Made Simple (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: Origins #26-27 (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: Origins #28 (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: Roar (Col_Fury)
X-Factor Special: Layla Miller (Kevin)
X-Men: Magneto  Testament #1-5 [pre-FF 1]
X-Men Origin: Beast

Is King-Size Cable Spectacular #1 a reprint issue?

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jul 08, 2008 9:57 am 
By JD

Paul Bourcier wrote:
>>>
Is King-Size Cable Spectacular #1 a reprint issue?
<<<

No, it's a fancy-named Annual with a new story.

			*	*	*

Jul 24, 2008 8:12 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

Wolverine: Saudade is a reprint, and has already been analyzed. Also, you can put me down for Wolverine: Roar(Surprise!) and Ghost Rider Annual #2.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Jul 25, 2008 7:20 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Fury!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Jul 30, 2008 11:12 am 
By Kevin W.
Director

>>>
Skaar: Son of Hulk Presents: Savage World of Sakaar
<<<

Put me down for that one as well.


>>>
Nova v4 #13-15
<<<

I'll at least do the analysis for this arc. Upcoming arcs, well, we will have to see...

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

			*	*	*

Aug 01, 2008 3:06 am 
By Frederic Krier

I'll do Sub-Mariner:The Depths and True Believers, if nobody else is volunteering.

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Subject: August call for analyses

Aug 01, 2008 6:55 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Another month, another call. Here's a new update, reflecting new upcoming comics, newly completed arcs, new assignments, and second thoughts I've had about picking up a couple of series myself.

If anyone would like to sign up to do an analysis of any unassigned stories, let me know. Your help is greatly appreciated. Col_Fury, I took the liberty of signing you up for a couple of WWII-era stories, as i'm sure you'll be all over them!  


Completed stories (as of 8/1/08)
ClanDestine v2 #1-5 (Don)
Daredevil: Battlin Jack Murdock #1-4 (JD)
Daredevil: Dead On Arrival (Jeph)
Foolkiller v2 #1-5
Guardians of the Galaxy v2 #1-3
Immortal Iron Fist #10-14 (Don)
Immortal Iron Fist #15-16 (Don)
Moon Knight v5 #14-19 (Deuce)
Moon Knight v5 #20 (Deuce)
Nova v4 #13-15 (Kevin)
Wolverine: Origins #26-27 (Col_Fury)

Future stuff
Amazing Spider-Man Family #1 (Michael)
Amazing Spider-Man Family #2
Angel: Revelations #1-5 (wolframbane)
Big Hero Six #1-5
Cable v3 #3-6
Captain America: Theater of War  Operation Zero-Point [pre-FF 1] (Col_Fury)
Captain America: White #0-6 [pre-FF 1] (Col_Fury)
Daredevil v2 #107-110 (Col_Fury)
Daredevil v2 #111 (Col_Fury)
Daredevil v2 #112-?
Dead of Night Featuring Devil Slayer #1-4
Eternals, v4 #1-? (Col_Fury)
Foolkiller: White Angels #1-5
Franklin Richards: Summer Smackdown!
Ghost Rider v6 #26 (Col_Fury)
Ghost Rider v6 #27 (Col_Fury)
Ghost Rider v6 #28-?
Ghost Rider Annual #2 (Col_Fury)
Ghost Rider: Danny Ketch #1-5
Immortal Iron Fist #17-20
Immortal Iron Fist: Orson Randall and the Death Queen of California
Immortal Iron Fist: The Origin of Danny Rand
King-Size Cable Spectacular #1
Marvel 1985 #1-6
Marvel Apes #1-4
Marvel Zombies v3 #1-4
NYX: No Way Home #1-6
Punisher v7 #56-60 (Col_Fury)
Punisher v7 #61-?
Punisher War Journal v2 #18-23
Runaways v3 #1-? (JD) 
Skaar: Son of Hulk #2-? (Kevin)
Skaar: Son of Hulk Presents: Savage World of Sakaar (Kevin)
Sub-Mariner: The Depths #1-4 [pre-FF 1] (Frederic)
Thor: The Truth of History #1 [pre-FF 1]
Venom: Dark Origin #1-5
Wolverine v3 #66-73 (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: Killing Made Simple (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: Manifest Destiny #1-4
Wolverine: Origins #28 (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: Roar (Col_Fury)
X-Factor Special: Layla Miller (Kevin)
X-Men: Magneto  Testament #1-5 [pre-FF 1] (wolframbane)
X-Men Origin: Beast (wolframbane)

As always, thanks to all who post on this forum!

Paul B.

			*	*	*

Aug 01, 2008 10:35 am 
By wolframbane

I would like to do X-Men Origin: Beast, X-Men: Magneto  Testament #1-5 and Angel: Revelations #1-5. And I will be posting my review of X-Men Origin: Colossus in the next few days.

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Aug 01, 2008 8:12 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, wolframbane. 

Paul B.

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Thread 20

Subject: X-Men Origins: Colossus #1

Aug 06, 2008 1:58 am 
By wolframbane

X-MEN ORIGINS: COLOSSUS #1
July 2008
No title given
30 pages

Characters: Piotr Rasputin (Colossus), Mikhail Rasputin, Illyana Rasputina (Magik), Nikolai Rasputin, Alexandra Rasputina
Professor X, Storm, Wolverine, Banshee, Nightcrawler, Sunfire, Thunderbird, Cyclops (BTS)
Alexei Mikhailovitch Vazhin, Dubenko (also known as Ivan), Director of Federal Security Service (FSS)

XO:C 1 (1). Mikhail leaves Siberia to become a cosmonaut and bids farewell to Piotr. Fireplace lit, apparently evening.
Note: The government later fakes Mikhail's death in UX 286 (4:2-6:6)-FB. 

XO:C 1 (2-6). Vazhin arrives and informs the Rasputin family of Mikhail's death. An angered Piotr rushes out into a field and he transforms into metal. Vazhin witnesses this and brings him home. "Three months later," daytime, snowfall, barren trees.
Notes: The Rasputin family lives in Siberian Russia, 62 miles northwest of Lake Baikal>

XO:C 1 (7). Piotr reveals his powers to his parents that evening. Same night as XO:C 1 (2-6), full moon, nighttime, snowfall, barren trees.
Note: Mikhail and Vahzin attended school together and were good friends for years.

XO:C 1 (8). Vahzin reports to the Director of Federal Security Service in Moscow, but does not mention Piotr's transformation. The Director does not believe him and assigns Dubenko to watch the Rasputins, and has Vahzin followed. Daytime, probably no more than a few days after XO:C 1 (2-6) and XO:C 1 (7).

XO:C 1 (9). Vahzin researches mutants in the FSS archives, and finds a New York Times article on the original X-Men battling Magneto at Cape Citadel. Probably shortly after X:OC 1 (8).
Note: The newspaper article reviews the events of UX 1 and is dated "Monday, May 5," despite OMITTX 1 placing this in late October. Therefore these events already occur after UX 1, and Prof X is also already aware that Piotr is a mutant and has a photograph of him, as the events of UX 300 (12-13)-FB occur between the panels of UX 1.

XO:C 1 (10). Alexandra shows Piotr his new baby sister Illyana, and Piotr promises to watch over her. "One year later," probably shortly after same date as MGK 1-4, which occurs on Illyana's birthday. Therefore Illyana was born a year after Mikhail disappeared.

XO:C 1 (11). Piotr and Ivan return from farming, and young Illyana wants Piotr to paint her picture. Ivan, actually a disguised Dubenko, reports to his superiors that nothing has yet transpired. Dubenko has been in spying on Rasputin family for "four years," daytime, green pastures and farming weather in Siberia, but some barren trees. Therefore Illyana is probably around age 3.

XO:C 1 (12-13). Vahzin, who has been trying to contact Charles Xavier, is in a bar and is telepathically contacted by Prof X. They discuss Piotr and Vahzin indicated the government would use his as a weapon if they learned of his gifts. Daytime, probably shortly after XO:C 1 (11).

XO:C 1 (14-15). Piotr and Ivan return from farming, Ivan leaves but peaks into the barn, where Piotr entertains young Illyana by lifting a tractor in his metal form. "Two years later," daytime, green pastures, farming weather. Therefore Illyana is probably around age 5.

XO:C 1 (16). At FSS headquarters (probably in Moscow), Vahzin learns that a black ops team is going to abduct Piotr. He briefly contacts Porf X telepathically but is arrested for treason. "36 hours later" after XO:C 1 (14-15), probably night as XO:C 1 (14-15) was during the day.

XO:C 1 (17-24). Two helicopters deliver a black ops team led by Dubenko arrive at the Rasputin house in the dead of night. Nikolai and Alexandra are captured, but after Piotr ensures Illyana is safe, he battles the team and destroys a helicopter. Dubenko reveals himself as Ivan, but is knocked out by a knockout dart fired by Vahzin, who reveals that he has been promoted to Director of Intelligence and the government no longer has any interest in the Rasputin family. He reveals that Xavier has psionically caused this, and has made the black ops team forget these events and believe they were out for a night of heavy drinking. Forests shown with full trees. Same night as XO:C 1 (16). Occurs at "23:00" or 11pm, which may be either Moscow time (GMT +0400) or Lake Baikal time (GMT +0900).

GSX 1 (8:6). A scene of homes and fields within the Ust-Ordynski farm collective near Lake Baikal, Siberia. OMITTX 4 places this in late May. Despite some differences in clothing, the events of GSX 1 (8:6-11:1) and XO:C 1 (25-28) occur in sequence. These events also occur in XCAL 107 (8:5)-FB, although further analysis is needed.

XO:C 1 (25:1-25:4). Nikolai and Piotr work in the fields as Illyana plays nearby. As Nikolai tries to get his son to open up about what has happened, he notices a runaway tractor racing towards Illyana. "Time passes" and Piotr has been so quiet and so angry "for months now," probably some months after XO:C 1 (17-24). Daytime, farming weather.

GSX 1 (8:7-9:5). Nikolai warns Piotr, who sees the tractor advancing towards Illyana. Piotr races towards her and transforms to metal, as Illyana plays unaware of the danger.

XO:C 1 (25:5). Piotr, now metal, runs and yells his sister's name.

GSX 1 (9:6-7). Piotr picks up his sister and faces the oncoming tractor. 

BTS. He puts his sister down (undepicted, these two scenes vary with Piotr holding and not holding his sister).

XO:C 1 (26). Piotr is struck by the tractor as Illyana watches from several feet away.

GSX (10:1). The tractor is shown being demolished.

XO:C 1 (27:1-2). Illyana is hugged and held by her kneeling brother next to the wrecked tractor.

GSX 1 (10:2). Piotr gets up, still in his metal form and holding Illyana.

XO:C 1 (27:3-28:5). Piotr sees Vahzin and Prof X before him, and they discuss Piotr leaving with the professor.

BTS. Piotr returns to human form and no longer holds his sister.

GSX 1 (10:3-10:4). Piotr continues to discuss this with Prof X.

GSX 1 (10:5-10:6). Piotr and Prof X discuss this with his parents in their home.

XO:C 1 (29). That evening, Piotr and Nikolai discuss this more. Piotr bids his sleeping sister farewell. Nightime, fireplace lit.

GSX 1 (11:1). Piotr waves to his parents as he leaves with Prof X. Daytime, probably following day.

XO:C 1 (30). After recieving his new uniform, Piotr (as Colossus) is introduced to the new X-Men Storm, Wolverine, Banshee, Nightcrawler, Sunfire and Thunderbird.
Note: This is immediately followed by GSX 1 (13).

Notes: 
Alexei Vazhin is mistakenly called Alexander VAHZIN in this story. He next appears in UX 263 and sports an eyepatch.
Illyana next appears in UX 146 as a six year old.
Cyclops appears BTS in XO:C 1 (30), as he enters the room moments later.

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Aug 06, 2008 6:53 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, wolframbane. I see you posted this twice, so I took the liberty of deleting one.

Paul B.

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Subject: MK2099: Mutant 2099 and Marvel Team-Up v3 #15-18

Aug 09, 2008 12:19 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Mutant 2099 and the MTU3 issues are the only Marvel Knights 2099 issues I've got, unfortunately (I *had* Deadpool/GLI, but got rid of it a while back). Here's the list of what else is needed, from the Checklist:

Punisher 2099 v2 #1 (one-shot)
Inhumans 2099 #1 (one-shot)
Daredevil 2099 #1 (one-shot)
Black Panther 2099 #1 (one-shot)
Deadpool/GLI (one-shot)

Oh, and one semi-interesting sidebar - the scenario outlined in the (common) first pace flashbacks and in Reed's exposition is almost identical to the scenario Iron Man claims would happen in IM/Cap: Casualties of War if everyone united against the SHRA. The only major difference is that it's still the "Mutant Registration Act" everyone and their dog lined up to get squashed by Sentinels over and the X-Men were more actively involved.

The specific divergence point is hard to pin down, since it takes place after MTU3 15-18 would have taken place (Watchtower spires on Avengers Tower), but certainly before Civil War (and possibly before HoM).

Oh, and the first page recap is common to all the one-shots - and shows Spider-Man clearly. Does that need to count as a "story" for /1, /2 purposes?

With that out of the way... (and the board finally back up)

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Aug 10, 2008 1:54 am 
By Somebody
Director

MUTANT 2099 #1
Writer: Robert Kirkman
Art: Khary Ranolph & Matt Ryan
"Mutant 2099"

Cast:
MUTANT 2099/CHAD CHANNING | MK2099 (also FB) 
MR FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS | MK2099 (also FB) 
KESHIA | MK2099

Unnamed:
Mr & Mrs Channing
Keshia's mother
Teacher
O'HARA, (no first name)

Summary:
Chad Channing thinks back to the time he fell through a hole into a lab containing a disembodied brain in a jar - while fighting Moloids, led by a group of inbred "Mole People" alongside the brain - Reed Richards - wearing a robot body wrapped in a Thing-cloned shell (a lot like Clor's body come to think of it). They win after Reed throws a moloid away and all the others follow it back down the hole.

On his way home, he's warned by a Sentinel that he only has 1:15 until curfew, and he proceeds to fly home for speed. His mum reminds him he was due to meet his girlfriend and he runs off to her house, before getting a brush-off because she's mad at herself for letting him stand her up all the time. Outside, a Sentinel spots him out after curfew, but he manages to fly home quickly and slams the door behind him. His dad says good, he made it without being spotted - they couldn't afford another fine.

The next day at school, he finds his grades have dropped badly, and his sleeve rolls up, and a nearby student spots his mutant brand ("2099") - he claims he's taking his suppressors, and is "not going to sprout blue fur or metal wings any time soon".

Later, he's angry at Reed because playing superhero takes up so much of his time, and storms out. At home, his dad tells him he'll save the lecture for the next time he gets a bad grade, and his girlfriend called for him. Flying over, a Sentinel is thrown through a building and nearly hits him, and does knock him down to the ground, where the source of the trouble is revealed - a monster which looks vaguely like Sasquatch II (from Alpha Flight v2). Chad saves two people from being crushed, then scarpers as it is brought down. Reed arrives just at that moment, and points out he saved their lives - the Sentinels were only concerned about beating the monster, not human lives - before giving him a lift to Keshia's, who says if he makes it up to her, she'll live with him.

Heading back to Reed's basement, he says he's sticking with it, and then an alarm comes in. They head out.

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Aug 10, 2008 1:55 am 
By Somebody
Director

MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #15
Writer: Robert Kirkman
Art: Paco Medina & Juan Vlasco

Cast:
SPEEDBALL/ROBBIE BALDWIN | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
GRAVITY/GREG WILLIS | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
DARKHAWK/CHRIS POWELL | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
CHRONOK | EARTH-CHRONOK

Cannon fodder:
SENTRY/ROBERT RENYOLDS | EARTH-CHRONOK (corpse)
IRON MAN/TONY STARK | EARTH-CHRONOK (corpse only)
SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER | EARTH-CHRONOK
WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE | EARTH-CHRONOK
YELLOWJACKET/HANK PYM | EARTH-CHRONOK (technically, this should probably be a Skrull, but...)
WASP/JANET VAN DYNE | EARTH-CHRONOK
CAGE, LUKE/CARL LUCAS | EARTH-CHRONOK
RICOCHET/JOHNNY GALLO | EARTH-CHRONOK
TURBO/MICHIKO MUSASHI | EARTH-CHRONOK (corpse only)
LIGHTSPEED/JULIE POWER | EARTH-CHRONOK (corpse only)

Someone from the future called Chronok uses Future Knowledge and a huge army to kill almost all the superheroes in the Marvel Universe.

MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #16
Writer: Robert Kirkman
Art: Paco Medina & Juan Vlasco

Cast:
TERROR/SHRECK | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
SPEEDBALL/ROBBIE BALDWIN | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
GRAVITY/GREG WILLIS | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
X-23/LAURA KINNEY | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
SLEEPWALKER | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
DARKHAWK/CHRIS POWELL | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
DAGGER/TANDY BOWEN | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
CHRONOK | EARTH-CHRONOK
MUTANT 2099/CHAD CHANNING | MK2099

Cannon fodder:
ARAA/ANYA CORAZON | EARTH-CHRONOK (dies, although Terror uses her arm from this point on)

pg1-19
[Earth-Chronok]
Terror brushes off Gravity and Speedball, who are fleeing from a bunch of Chronok-Army Goons. Araa and X-23 leap in to help instead, while Sleepwalker flies overhead and decides to help too, thinking they might be the only survivors. Terror, now having a hole in his torso, decides to get a new one from a CAG blast, also joins in to get a new one, as Darkhawk & Dagger turn up, and DH takes command.

The firing then stops as Chronok turns up in person, taking the chance to gloat until Terror shoots him in the visor. They manage to make it down into a sewer, thanks partly to Speedball distracting him directly. Chronok tells them just to bomb them out. Most get away, but Araa is caught in the blast, and Speedball is left holding her severed arm; which Terror quickly appropriates to replace his lost right arm.

As they regroup, Speedball reveals he grabbed Chronok's time-travel device when he was jumping over him. Darkhawk looks it over, and sees that it should be simple to use, since it's got very few buttons and is displaying the exact date it was came from. They decide to go to the future one month before that date to try and stop him.

pg20-22
[MK2099]
There, they quickly run into Mutant 2099, who tells them the Sentinels will turn up any moment, and "uh... follow me if you want to live.... I guess."


MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #17
Writer: Robert Kirkman
Art: Paco Medina & Juan Vlasco

Cast:
CHRONOK | EARTH-CHRONOK

MR FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS | MK2099
MUTANT 2099/CHAD CHANNING | MK2099
TERROR/SHRECK | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
SPEEDBALL/ROBBIE BALDWIN | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
GRAVITY/GREG WILLIS | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
X-23/LAURA KINNEY | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
SLEEPWALKER | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
DARKHAWK/CHRIS POWELL | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
DAGGER/TANDY BOWEN | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099

KESHIA | MK2099
FIN FANG FOOM | MK2099
DAREDEVIL/SAMUEL FISK | MK2099
CHRONOK | MK2099
FIN FANG FOOM | MK2099

pg1-2
[Earth-Chronok]
In the past, Chronok recieves a report that the group have gone - save a armless, partially vapourised corpse Chronok assumes was Terror - and there were a lot of Chronal Displacement Particles there. He quickly discovers his "chronometer" is missing - but isn't too concerned, since he effectively rules the planet now, and doesn't plan to go back.

pg3-10
"The Future" [MK2099]

M2099 brings the group to Reed Richards' lab, where Reed (in his Thing robot body) chides him for his stupidity in bringing them there just because they said they claimed to be time-travellers - although he isn't concerned about the specific group, since he recognises Darkhawk, Dagger, Speedball, Sleepwalker and Gravity, and X-23 (just about). Moving his brain to a smaller robot mode, Reed fills them in on what's happened in the MK2099 timeline; while Darkhawk tells him why they're there. Reed recognises the time machine - it's his. After Reed further points out there are at least two other time machines he's aware of, so destroying it would be pointless, they decide to hole up and get ready.

pg11
"Some Time Later."

Darkhawk consoles Dagger, who's in shock over everything that's happened, claiming they'll undo it all.

pg12-14
"More Time Later..." ["almost a week"]

Gravity and X-23 go out to dinner with Chad and Keshia, who is now fully aware of Chad's superhero life. It's been a while since the M2099 one-shot, but the exact time is vague (C&K have been together for "almost two years, longer than he's been a super hero"). When Chad's "special number" goes off, the three heroes run off and leave Keshia to pick up the check.

They join a fight between Fin Fang Foom and several of their teammates [Terror (in Araa's carapace), Darkhawk, Speedball and Reed]. Gravity and Speedball are still in their own costumes; while X-23 & Gravity are getting lovey-dovey.

pg15
"Later that night"

Terror visits Sleepwalker in a sickbay, who has a broken arm and is having trouble adjusting to existing full-time in the waking world, with attendant chores.

pg16
"Live in the future" montage

(16:1) - "Day 9"; Chad and Speedball play a game, with Darkhawk, Dagger & Reed in the background
(16:2) - "Day 13"; M2099 and Sleepwalker help Daredevil against a group of Sentinels (the only reference to any of the other MK2099 one-shots)
(16:3) - "Day 17"; Reed examines Terror's rotting Araa arm
(16:4) - "Day 20"; M2099 walks in on X-23 and Gravity snogging. Last appearance of any individual costumes.

pg17-22
"Day 22"

Chad & Reed, in Reed's flying pod, discuss the looming threat of Chronok, and Reed explains that whatever happened originally isn't doomed to happen to them - the timeline was changed when Darkhawk & co landed in the future. They land and enter their base, where Darkhawk's running a training session with the others (now all wearing costumes styled after M2099's, albeit with masks based off their originals where relevant). Reed's impressed at Darkhawk's leadership skills.

Then Chronok attacks, with army of goons in tow.


MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #18
Writer: Robert Kirkman
Art: Paco Medina & Juan Vlasco

Cast:
CHRONOK | MK2099
MR FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS | MK2099
MUTANT 2099/CHAD CHANNING | MK2099
TERROR/SHRECK | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
SPEEDBALL/ROBBIE BALDWIN | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
GRAVITY/GREG WILLIS | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
X-23/LAURA KINNEY | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
SLEEPWALKER | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
DARKHAWK/CHRIS POWELL | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
DAGGER/TANDY BOWEN | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099

pg1-14
They fight and hold their own, until Reed pulls out a REALLY Big Gun and starts zapping the army with it.

Unfortunately, in the time it took Reed to get the gun, Chronok found the chronometer, and he slaps away Gravity when he tries to grab it. He opens a portal, but Darkhawk uses his grapple to break it when he is halfway through, shutting the portal and slicing him precisely in half (Gravity finds it "gross", Dagger wants to vomit, and Terror asks Reed to get it on ice ASAP).

Speedball's keen to get home, but Reed breaks it to him that he would either (a) end up back in Earth-Chronok, with a live Chronok lording it over a world where all the heroes are dead, or (b) end up in the normal MU... where there's another Speedball, Darkhawk, etc. They didn't change the past, just opened a new timeline where Chronok didn't go back and kill everyone.

pg15-16
Dagger's got mixed feelings about everything; while Darkhawk is actually quite happy about being stuck in the future - and on his mentioning "new relationships", they kiss.

pg17-19
Elsewhere in the complex, Sleepwalker's not too happy about being stuck in corporeal form permanently; while Terror's lackadasical; X-23 and Gravity are busy snogging; and Reed's talking to M2099 about future plans in light of getting more manpower. 

After M2099 leaves to see Keshia, Darkhawk comes over to talk practicalities with Reed until Gravity joins them to ask where Speedball is. Reed detects that he's on the roof - which is worrying, since the Sentinels may detect him. Darkhawk volunteers to check on him.

pg20-22
Speedball's down about being stuck in the future, where no-one will ever know what they did to save the MU. Darkhawk says that, because they did it when no-one would even thank them, that's what makes them heroes.




MARVEL TEAM-UP v3 #25 (MK2099 segments - pg 1, 2 & 22 - only)
Writer: Robert Kirkman
Art: Andy Kuhn

Cast:
DARKHAWK/CHRIS POWELL | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
DAGGER/TANDY BOWEN | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
TERROR/SHRECK | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
MR FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS | MK2099
MUTANT 2099/CHAD CHANNING | MK2099
X-23/LAURA KINNEY | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
GRAVITY/GREG WILLIS | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
SLEEPWALKER | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
SPEEDBALL/ROBBIE BALDWIN | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099

pg1-2
Darkhawk leaves Speedball on monitor duty so he can get some sex time with Dagger. Reedbot transplants Arana's tattoo into a mechanical arm so Terror can still have the use of her "spider-armour stuff" even though the arm's too rotted to use. Elsewhere, M2099 & X-23 are playing a game, while Gravity is eating pizza. And finally, Sleepwalker walks in on Speedball's monitor duty as SB takes a "breet! breet!" to mean the timestream's collapsing and they're all doomed.

pg22
As everyone rushes in from Speedball's alarm, it turns out they're not doomed. The "breet! breet!" means it's raining.

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Aug 10, 2008 1:58 am 
By Somebody
Director

MK2099 natives

MUTANT 2099/CHAD CHANNING | MK2099
M2099 1-FB
{M2099 1}
MTU3 16
MTU3 17
MTU3 18
[MTU3 25]

MR FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS | MK2099
M2099 1-FB
{M2099 1}
MTU3 17
MTU3 18
[MTU3 25]

KESHIA | MK2099
M2099 1
MTU3 17

DAREDEVIL/SAMUEL FISK | MK2099
[DD2099 1] (one presumes)
MTU3 17

FIN FANG FOOM | MK2099
MTU3 17

CHRONOK | EARTH-CHRONOK (The one who travelled back)
MTU3 15
MTU3 16
MTU3 17

CHRONOK | MK2099 (The one who got killed by Darkhawk before he could time-travel)
MTU3 17
MTU3 18

End up living in the MK2099 timeline
"Earth-Chronok" isn't an official name, but I couldn't think of a better one...

TERROR/SHRECK | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
MTU3 16
MTU3 17
MTU3 18
[MTU3 25]

SPEEDBALL/ROBBIE BALDWIN | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
MTU3 15
MTU3 16
MTU3 17
MTU3 18
[MTU3 25]

GRAVITY/GREG WILLIS | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
MTU3 15
MTU3 16
MTU3 17
MTU3 18
[MTU3 25]

X-23/LAURA KINNEY | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
MTU3 16
MTU3 17
MTU3 18
[MTU3 25]

SLEEPWALKER | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
MTU3 16
MTU3 17
MTU3 18
[MTU3 25]

DARKHAWK/CHRIS POWELL | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
MTU3 15
MTU3 16
MTU3 17
MTU3 18
[MTU3 25]

DAGGER/TANDY BOWEN | EARTH-CHRONOK & MK2099
MTU3 16
MTU3 17
MTU3 18
[MTU3 25]

Aaannnd the cannon fodder

SENTRY/ROBERT RENYOLDS | EARTH-CHRONOK
MTU3 15

IRON MAN/TONY STARK | EARTH-CHRONOK
MTU3 15

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER | EARTH-CHRONOK
MTU3 15

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE | EARTH-CHRONOK
MTU3 15

YELLOWJACKET/HANK PYM | EARTH-CHRONOK (technically, this should probably be the Skrull Hank, but...)
MTU3 15

WASP/JANET VAN DYNE | EARTH-CHRONOK
MTU3 15

CAGE, LUKE/CARL LUCAS | EARTH-CHRONOK
MTU3 15

RICOCHET/JOHNNY GALLO | EARTH-CHRONOK
MTU3 15

TURBO/MICHIKO MUSASHI | EARTH-CHRONOK
MTU3 15

LIGHTSPEED/JULIE POWER | EARTH-CHRONOK
MTU3 15

ARAA/ANYA CORAZON | EARTH-CHRONOK
MTU3 16

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