	Marvel Universe Forum
1. She-Hulk Heroes Reborn Question
2. New Marvel Indexes
3. Crotus
4. Kales in GR3 #76
5. Appearances in non-Marvel Comics?
6. M/VS 1/5-FB
7. Spider-Man:Parallel Lives
8. ASM 280 vs. WOSM 23
9. Beast Chronology question regarding M/HOL 1994
10. Event ordering question
11. Age of the Sentry #1
12. Mother Askani, Sanctity & misc.
13. Doctor Strange's status quo

	Issue Analysis Forum
14. Orson Randall and the Green Mist of Death
15. X-Factor: Layla Miller (one-shot) analysis...
16. September call for analyses
17. MARVEL APES #1-2
18. Wolverine: Saudade
19. Spider-Man: With Great Power... 1-5
20. DARING MYSTERY COMICS #2/5





Thread 1

Subject: She-Hulk Heroes Reborn Question

Sep 01, 2008 10:47 am 
By Jeremy Johnston

I know this question is a decade late, but I figured if anyone could help it would be you folks here at the Marvel Chronology Project. In the Heroes Reborn: The Return mini, She-Hulk is seen with the heroes returning to 616 Earth along with the FF and Avengers. However, she wasn't the real She-Hulk, the 616 She-Hulk was a member of the Heroes For Hire while the others were off in the Franklin-verse. The She-Hulk that retured must have been a Franklin creation. Has this ever been explained? What happened to this She-Hulk?

			*	*	*

Sep 01, 2008 12:55 pm 
By loki

When I wrote She-Hulk's entry for her most recent Handbook appearance, I asked editorial for a ruling on the matter. The consensus is that she was mistakenly included amongst those who left, assumed to be the original, and that she got merged into her 616 counterpart when they crossed into that reality (much like the Heroes Return Hulk merged with the 616 Hulk, though with less dangerous radiation).

			*	*	*

Sep 02, 2008 8:46 am 
By Somebody
Director

loki wrote:
>>>
...that she got merged into her 616 counterpart when they crossed into that reality (much like the Heroes Return Hulk merged with the 616 Hulk, though with less dangerous radiation).
<<<

Well, that had something to do with the fact that (1) both Hulk & Banner were present at the transfer point itself and (2) that was the REAL Banner, split from the Hulk during Onslaught: MU, yes?

Does the same hold true for the Inhumans, BTW? They were on the ship home, but Crystal was the only one shown to enter Onslaught (and, indeed, shown in O:MU at all).

			*	*	*

Sep 02, 2008 11:44 am 
By Jeremy Johnston

I didn't know that about the Inhumans. I am going to have to change that in my database when I get home. 

I think that the extra She-Hulk (and Inhuman Royal Family for that matter) could make for an interesting story... they could be out there in the MU somewhere still.

			*	*	*

Sep 04, 2008 3:39 am 
By loki

Somebody wrote:
>>>
loki wrote:
>>>
...that she got merged into her 616 counterpart when they crossed into that reality (much like the Heroes Return Hulk merged with the 616 Hulk, though with less dangerous radiation).
<<<

Well, that had something to do with the fact that (1) both Hulk & Banner were present at the transfer point itself and (2) that was the REAL Banner, split from the Hulk during Onslaught: MU, yes?
<<<

Yes, that would probably have something to do with it. Basically, the She-Hulk being there was simply an error on someone's part. But, having to account for that in story terms (which is one of the functions of the handbooks, smoothing out glitches like these), the Heroes Reborn She-Hulk could simply have evaporated into thin air, been absorbed (despite the distance between them) into the real She-Hulk, been bounced back to Heroes Reborn by the presence of the real one at their destination, or been left to wander 616 while the real She-Hulk was also wandering round there (shades of the Earth A doppelganger). The consensus was for the absorption option, and that explanation was given in her last handbook entry.


Somebody wrote:
>>>
Does the same hold true for the Inhumans, BTW? They were on the ship home, but Crystal was the only one shown to enter Onslaught (and, indeed, shown in O:MU at all).
<<<

Presumably, though that's not been discussed specifically. When duplicates were present, they got merged with the existing 616 versions.

			*	*	*

Sep 04, 2008 3:44 am 
By loki

Jeremy Johnston wrote:
>>>
Somebody wrote:
>>>
loki wrote:
>>>
...that she got merged into her 616 counterpart when they crossed into that reality (much like the Heroes Return Hulk merged with the 616 Hulk, though with less dangerous radiation).
<<<

Well, that had something to do with the fact that (1) both Hulk & Banner were present at the transfer point itself and (2) that was the REAL Banner, split from the Hulk during Onslaught: MU, yes?

Does the same hold true for the Inhumans, BTW? They were on the ship home, but Crystal was the only one shown to enter Onslaught (and, indeed, shown in O:MU at all).
<<<

I didn't know that about the Inhumans. I am going to have to change that in my database when I get home. 

I think that the extra She-Hulk (and Inhuman Royal Family for that matter) could make for an interesting story... they could be out there in the MU somewhere still.
<<<

It could still happen if a writer wants it to. The Handbook goes with the best current info, but retcons come along all the time. For the Handbook, the discovery that Heroes Reborn She-Hulk was still around would simply mean "the Counter-Earth She-Hulk was absorbed into the 616 She-Hulk" would become "the Counter-Earth She-Hulk was believed to have been absorbed into the 616 She-Hulk, but actually..."

			*	*	*

Thread 2

Subject: New Marvel Indexes

Sep 11, 2008 1:09 am 
By wolframbane

For all of you Marvel Index fans, apparently there may be a new series on the way.

http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog ... #more-6071

(search for keyword Index)

			*	*	*

Sep 11, 2008 2:37 am 
By JD

Ahem... 

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=3988

			*	*	*

Sep 11, 2008 3:16 am 
By wolframbane

Oooops... um okay everybody, move along, move along, nothing to see here, move along now... :O

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Thread 3

Subject: Crotus

Sep 11, 2008 7:20 pm 
By metaldragon

I noticed Crotus' appearances in XTERM 1-3 [Edit: and XF 36] are missing from his listing. Does anyone know if he appears in any other Inferno titles, or issues of possibly The New Mutants before NM 72? There is a demon who looks a lot like him that appears at the end of XF@ 4/3 but that can't possibly be him because Dagger blasts him into ash in C&D3 4 which takes place before that.

Crotus
*XTERM 1
*XTERM 2
*XTERM 3~XF 36
XTERM 4
XCAL 7
C&D3 4

"May the Light shine forever!"

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Sep 12, 2008 12:59 am 
By Starman

I think it's Crotus that is speaking with N'astirh in that issue of Spec. S-M where N'astirh gives Jason "Hobgoblin" Macendale his demonic powers in a somewhat brutal manner, but it's hard to tell from Sal Buschema's art.- Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

			*	*	*

Thread 4

Subject: Kales in GR3 #76

Sep 13, 2008 10:49 am 
By scottandrewhutchins

This is a mistake. I read that issue, and I didn't see any Kales until the next issue. There is no flashback. It's mostly a big fight with Vengeance.

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Thread 5

Subject: Appearances in non-Marvel Comics?

Sep 13, 2008 2:30 am 
By wolframbane

For the chronology, are we to include canon comic book appearances for characters outside of a comic not published by Marvel. I do not mean appearances of Marvel characters in crossovers (like Superman/FF), but raher appearances of Marvel characters published in non-Marvel Comics, but acknowledged as occuring in Earth-616 continuity.

Examples include Mantis who appeared in DC Comics' Justice League of America #142 as Willow, which was also referenced in the OHOTMU ("she left our universe, but even in other universes she found herself pursued -- on one alternate Earth she was aided by a league of justice-serving heroes against a mechanical construct which sought to prevent her child's birth"). Writer Steve Englehart also implied she was Lorelei in Eclipse Comics' Scorpio Rose #2. Her 'aliases' are also given as "formerly Mandy Celestine, Lorelei, Willow" on Marvel.com.

Another example includes early non-Timely Golden Age comic appearances by Public Domain characters, such as Amazing Man (John Aman), Ghost RIder (Rex Fury) or the members of Battle Axis.

			*	*	*

Sep 13, 2008 9:09 am 
By Somebody
Director

Straight no, I'm pretty sure.

			*	*	*

Sep 13, 2008 2:33 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

My personal preference would be not to include them, because it opens up worm cans, but I suppose that's up to the Directors.


watching: susie orman money & women

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Thread 6

Subject: M/VS 1/5-FB

Jun 27, 2008 7:25 pm 
By Ork

M/VS 1/5-FB is missing in the chronology for Jean Grey.

PHOENIX IV/JEAN GREY SUMMERS
...
C&P 2
M/VS 1/5-FB
C&P 3
...

			*	*	*

Jun 27, 2008 8:08 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Does it take place in the future where/when her & Cyke were raising Cable?

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Sep 13, 2008 5:06 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Yes.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Thread 7

Subject: Spider-Man:Parallel Lives

Jul 29, 2008 9:03 pm 
By cweed4

Currently, Spidey has 9 entries for the SM:PL graphic novel. 

PETER PARKER
ASM 400-FB
SM:PL (1)
PPTSS 225/2-FB
~
PPSM2 27-FB
SM:PL pg 3
ASM@ 1-FB
~
ASM 94 (3:1 - 3:3)-FB
SM:PL (6:2 - 6:3)
AAF 15 (3:7 - 4:1)
~
PPSM2 33-FB
SM:PL (14:3 - 14:5)
AAF 15 (9:1)
~
AAF 15 (9:6 - 9:7)
SM:PL (18:1)
AAF 15 (10:1 - 10:2)
~
ASM 28 (17 - 20)
SM:PL
ASM@ 2
ASM 29
ASM 30
ASM 31
ASM 32
SM:PL
ASM 32
ASM 33
~
ASM 42-FB
ASM 42
SM:PL
ASM 42
ASM 43
~
ASM 292
ASM@ 21
PPTSS@ 7
ASM@ 21
SM:PL
ASM '96/2
M/CP 99/4
WOSM 31

First off, I have added some page/panel breakdowns that were missing.

Secondly, I think all but the last entry should get a FB designation since the scenes are narrated by either Peter or MJ.

I did not see any new material that would suggest the need for an entry between the pages of ASM 32 and so both that particular entry and the split entry for issue 32 have been removed. 

There should be an entry between pages of ASM@ 21. Doc Ock is revealed to be monitoring the wedding with video drones and he catches there marriage kiss on screen. This is both a new scene that deserves entry and a retcon that requires adding a BTS listing for the annual to Otto's chronology.

The concluding pages of the graphic novel (48-62) are all original story material and need a new placement. As it stands now, the final entry for SM:PL is placed after Peter and MJ return from their honeymoon. This entry (which should be the only one without a FB designation) simply can't fit here for the following reasons: 
1) MJ mentions having bought a condo (occurs in ASM 300-301)
2) MJ mentions Pete returning to school (occurs in ASM 303)
3) MJ mentions having lost the condo (occurs in ASM 314) 

The other big clue comes from MJ (again) inviting May over for dinner at their place. This means the story has to take place after WOSM 57 since they have moved out of May's and into their new loft by then. It would also seem preferablE to keep this in front of Ock's next appearance w/ Spidey (ASM 334). This leaves a fairly good sized window and I lean towards the beginning of it given the number of minor(?) Doc Ock appearances before he shows up with the Sinister Six in issue 334. Shortly after being established in their new loft is the Acts of Vengeance cross-over and putting the story in front of that seems as good a place as any. 

So, all of that leaves the following changes-

PETER PARKER
ASM 400-FB
SM:PL (1)-FB (just added FB designation)
PPTSS 225/2-FB
~
PPSM2 27-FB
SM:PL (3 - 4)-FB (appears on 2 pages)
ASM@ 1-FB
~
ASM 94 (3:1 - 3:3)-FB
SM:PL (6:2 - 6:3)-FB (just added FB designation)
AAF 15 (3:7 - 4:1)
~
PPSM2 33-FB
SM:PL (14:3 - 14:5)-FB (just added FB designation)
AAF 15 (9:1)
~
AAF 15 (9:6 - 9:7)
SM:PL (18:1)-FB (just added FB designation)
AAF 15 (10:1 - 10:2)
~
ASM 28 (17 - 20)
SM:PL (28:4 - 29:2)-FB (page/panel breakdowns)
ASM@ 2
ASM 29
ASM 30
ASM 31
ASM 32 (2 entries removed)
ASM 33
~
ASM 42-FB
ASM 42 (1-19) (page/panel breakdowns)
SM:PL (39:1-39:2)-FB (page/panel breakdowns)
ASM 42 (20) (page/panel breakdowns)
ASM 43
~
ASM 292
ASM@ 21 (1-41) (page/panel breakdowns)
SM:PL (47:2)-FB (new entry)
ASM@ 21 (42) (new entry)
PPTSS@ 7
ASM@ 21 (43) (page/panel breakdowns)
ASM '96/2
M/CP 99/4
WOSM 31
~
WOSM 57
PPTSS 157
WOSM 58
SM:PL (48-62) (new placement)
M/CP 39/4
ASM 326


DOC OCK
WOSM 5
SWII 7
WTS 17
WTS 18
ASM@ 21-BTS
SM:PL (47:2-47:4)-FB
ASM 296
ASM 297
DAMCON 1-BTS
SM:PL (48-62)
M/CP 50/3
SOLOA 17
DAMCON2 4-BTS
M/CP 127/2
ASM 334

			*	*	*

Jul 30, 2008 1:42 am 
By John Simons

I know I did the original analysis for this book, but I don't seem to have my notes anymore. Anyone know if it's in the forum archives somewhere?

"Jessica, whatever you do...don't contradict the continuity! They'll eat you alive! They'll. Eat. You. Alive!"

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Jul 30, 2008 12:18 pm 
By cweed4

Found it in the 3rd forum archive- "Message threads from 10/15/00 to 11/17/00".


Here was the statement regarding the FB question-
>>>
This graphic novel is not FBs, but rather tells a linear story of Peter's and MJ's lives up until their wedding, skipping ahead in time every few pages. Since the story keeps jumping forward in time, it is necessary to partition each individual time period into it's own section. What I came up with is 21 different sections in which this graphic novel unfolds.
<<<

Considering that both Peter and MJ have narration over these scenes I think they have to be considered flashbacks.



Here is the analysis for original story material that ends the book-
>>>
Section 21 (43- end)

The most contemporary scenes of the graphic novel, they take place immediately after the ending of ASM @ 21 . I no longer own this annual, but if I remember correctly the annual ends just as Peter and MJ are standing before the preacher, before they give their vows? Or maybe not, I don't recall anymore.

Anyway, this section starts with them exchanging the "I do"s. Present at the wedding are not only the preacher (who isn't named) but Flash Thompson, Harry Osborn, Liz Osborn, Joe Robertson, J Jonah Jameson, Betty Brant, May Parker, Anna Watson. Assuming the vows bit is a new scene exclusive to the gn, these characters all appear here between ASM @ 21 and whatever their various next appearences are in their current chronologies.

Finally, Dr. Octopus most likely appears here between PPTSS 124 and ASM 296.
<<<

For the reasons stated above, pages 46+ have to occur later on.


I also want to plug your final analysis comment as well.
>>>
That about wraps it up. The only other thing I could tell you from this graphic novel is how the dialogue in here matches up to identical scenes in the original stories. It depends on how important it is to include these representations with the ol' ~ sign. If it is preferable, it can be done, but since only certain scenes of the originals but not whole issues are shown again, it will end up with a lot of this type of listing:

ASM 30
ASM 30~ASM: PL
ASM 30
ASM 30~ASM: PL
ASM 30
ASM 30~ASM: PL
ASM 30
ASM 30~ASM: PL

....you get the point.
<<<

There are numerous scenes that come straight from previous issues. Some are drawn at different angles, split up the dialogue exchanges, or even switch panel ordering. For the ultra-obsessive chronologists this could provide for many more SM:PL entries.

			*	*	*

Jul 30, 2008 1:00 pm 
By ADMINISTRATOR

cweed4 wrote:
>>>
Here was the statement regarding the FB question-
>>>
This graphic novel is the story keeps jumping forward in time, it is necessary to partition each individual time period into it's own section. What I came up with is 21 different sections in which this graphic novel unfolds.
<<<

Considering that both Peter and MJ have narration over these scenes I think they have to be considered flashbacks.
<<<


They don't have to be. This is usually treated simply as a storytelling device. For instance, many Punisher stories are narrated by the Punisher, but they're not flashbacks.


watching: lost

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Jul 30, 2008 5:51 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Speaking solely in general terms though, most first-person narrations are in the present tense as a log of what the character is thinking at the specific moment of the panel (to the point that if the narrator is surprised or attacked, the narration will reflect that with something like a "wha-huh"). Whereas, by contrast, the events in SM:PL are narrated by Peter & MJ at the time of their wedding, looking back on The Way Things Were - it's only in the very last panel, when Spidey & MJ hug, that Peter's narration finally hits present tense (MJ's never does - her narration refers to the last scene as "that morning").

Not arguing for either case, just thought it was a note worth making.

			*	*	*

Jul 30, 2008 6:08 pm 
By Enda80

Captain American Annual#13 gets narrated in the first person by the Red Skull. Captain American I#323 gets narrated in the first person by Cap, as does #326. #326 as I recall, seems to follow somebody's "What-huh" example. Cap visits Skull House to investigate paranormal manifestations. He encounters what he initially dismisses as a hologram of the Red Skull, but when the "hologram" recites information about the Red Skull's last moments that Cap (who was with the Skull when the Skull died in his original body), Cap does get taken aback. I suppose this would get treated as a flashback if Cap's narration had ran "That little line from the "hologram" caught me off guard at the moment, but later I found out why it could say what it did". 

I suppose that the diagetical reason why these characters are narrating while this is all happening is a habit of composing for their journals in their heads from long practice of recording their adventures for the Avengers log or Shield Datacore or their journals (Captain American I#246 shows that Cap kept a war journal during WWII and the Phantom of Cardiff Moore story notes that "Captain America's choice for the spine-chiller of the month -- taken from his own personal files" -- it's "No. 382-F").

Master of Kung Fu #38-39, and in fact, many Shang-Chi stories get narrated in the first person (including when Shangi-Chi crashed the AIM Weapons Expo). I do not see too many of those list as fbs.

Last edited by Enda80 on Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jul 31, 2008 8:14 pm 
By cweed4

Somebody's analysis of the narration's tense is correct. Maybe I need to put FB's on everything but the last panel  The only other argument for FB is that the opening 2 pages have the faces of (adult) Peter and MJ superimposed over parts of the panels along with their narration. It gives the impression of looking at them in "present time" talking about past events. Maybe we need a poll to decide this question?  I'm actually more interested in any feedback regarding the shift in placement for the original story material at the end of the comic.

I've also attempted to flesh out the beginning chronology for MJ by comparing SM:PL with ASM 259 and UTSM 16 (in addition to the new ending placement). There is some tweaking here but its also a lot of additional page/panel breakdowns.

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 
PPSM2 1/2-FB
ASM 259 (3:2)-FB (page/panel breakdowns) MJ as a baby
SM:PL (2)-FB (page/panel breakdowns) infant MJ, Philip Watson tantrum w/ red hair
UTSM 16 (3:2)-FB kids are young, another Philip Watson tantrum
ASM 259 (3:3-5:6)-FB (page/panel breakdowns)
--->ASM 259 (3:3-3:6) young MJ, Philip Watson tantrum w/ graying hair
--->ASM 259 (4-5:2) family moving around, then the divorce
--->ASM 259 (5:3) staying w/ relatives 1
--->ASM 259 (5:4) staying w/ relatives 2
--->ASM 259 (5:5) staying w/ Anna
--->ASM 259 (5:6) MJ 13, 1st sees Peter
SM:PL (4)-FB (page/panel breakdowns) MJ 13, 1st sees Peter, extended scene
****** (UTSM 16-FB entry moved up)
ASM 259 (8:3-8:5)-FB (page/panel breakdowns)
--->ASM 259 (8:3) move in w/ Frank Brown
--->ASM 259 (8:4) Madeline taking care of his 3 kids too
--->ASM 259 (8:5) stern Frank
SM:PL (10)-FB (page/panel breakdowns) MJ 14, Pitt HS, living w/ Frank
--->This is the key to some of the changes made here. While it appears to lead directly into the next pg scene, w/ MJ in the same outfit, that simply can't work. ASM 259 establishes that she is already 15 before Gayle gets pregnant (which is announced on the very next page). 
UTSM 16 (3:3)-FB (page/panel breakdowns) MJ+Gayle are HS age
ASM 259 (8:6 - 9:9)-FB
--->ASM 259 (8:6) Gayle starts dating Timmy
--->ASM 259 (8:7-9:3) high school memories
--->ASM 259 (9:4-9:5) Gayle engaged
--->ASM 259 (9:6) Gayle married
--->ASM 259 (9:7) Gayle leaves town
--->ASM 259 (9:8) moves ahead 1 yr, MJ now 15
--->ASM 259 (9:9) receive letter that Gayle is coming for visit w/ a "surprise"
SM:PL (11 - 12)-FB~ASM 259 (10:1)-FB~UTSM 16 (3:4)-FB (page/panel breakdowns) Gayle arrives to announce pregnancy
****** (UTSM 16-FB + ASM 259-FB entries combined w/ above)
SM:PL (15)-FB (page/panel breakdowns) Thanksgiving of same yr
ASM 259 (10:2-10:3)-FB (page/panel breakdowns) baby born
SM:PL (17-18)-FB (page/panel breakdowns) learns Peter is Spidey in retcon of AF 15
SM:PL (25)-FB~UTSM 16 learns about blind date
UTSM 16 Spidey vs. Radioactive Man
SM:PL (27)-FB fakes headache
--->The closing dialogue in UTSM 16, by MJ, stated that she "might come down w/ a headache or something" to avoid dating Peter the next time Anna brings it up. 
ASM 15-BTS 
UTSM:SE occurs prior to ASM 16 based on Spidey chronology
ASM 16-BTS
****** (ASM 259-FB entry removed) 
****** (UTSM:SE entry moved up) 
{ASM 25}
WTS 9-BTS
****** (ASM 259-FB entry removed)
ASM 38
ASM 259 (13:4 - 14:9)-FB (page/panel breakdowns)
--->ASM 259 (13:4-13:7) Gayles marriage going bad
--->ASM 259 (13:8) 2nd baby on the way
--->ASM 259 (13:9) Timmy leaves Gayle
--->ASM 259 (14:1) MJ+mom move in w/ Gayle
--->ASM 259 (14:2) mom sick
--->ASM 259 (14:3) MJ part-time job
--->ASM 259 (14:4) mom dead, Gayle still pregnant
--->ASM 259 (14:5-14:9) graveyard scene when MJ leaves
SM:PL (37-38)-FB (page/panel breakdowns)
ASM 42
~~~
ASM 292
ASM@ 21 (1-41) (page/panel breakdowns)
SM:PL (47:2)-FB video scene kiss
ASM@ 21 (42) wedding reception
PPTSS@ 7
ASM@ 21 (43) (page/panel breakdowns)
****** (SM:PL entry removed)
ASM '96/2
M/CP 99/4
ASM 293
~~~
WOSM 57
PPTSS 157
WOSM 58
SM:PL (48-62)
M/CP 39/4 needs to be moved in accordance w/ this thread
ASM 326
PPTSS 158
WOSM 59
ASM 327
****** (M/CP 39/4 entry removed)
PPTSS 159-BTS
ASM 328








Here is the clean version-

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE 
PPSM2 1/2-FB
ASM 259 (3:2)-FB
SM:PL (2)-FB
UTSM 16 (3:2)-FB
ASM 259 (3:3-5:6)-FB
SM:PL (4)-FB
ASM 259 (8:3-8:5)-FB
SM:PL (10)-FB
UTSM 16 (3:3)-FB
ASM 259 (8:6 - 9:9)-FB
SM:PL (11 - 12)-FB~ASM 259 (10:1)-FB~UTSM 16 (3:4)-FB
SM:PL (15)-FB
ASM 259 (10:2-10:3)-FB
SM:PL (17-18)-FB
SM:PL (25)-FB~UTSM 16
UTSM 16
SM:PL (27)-FB
ASM 15-BTS 
UTSM:SE
ASM 16-BTS
{ASM 25}
WTS 9-BTS
ASM 38
ASM 259 (13:4 - 14:9)-FB
SM:PL (37-38)-FB
ASM 42
~~~~~
ASM 292
ASM@ 21 (1-41)
SM:PL (47:2)-FB
ASM@ 21 (42)
PPTSS@ 7
ASM@ 21 (43)
ASM '96/2
M/CP 99/4
ASM 293
~~~~~
WOSM 57
PPTSS 157
WOSM 58
SM:PL (48-62)
M/CP 39/4
ASM 326
PPTSS 158
WOSM 59
ASM 327
PPTSS 159-BTS
ASM 328

			*	*	*

Aug 01, 2008 8:47 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

I almost hate to ask this...but how does SPIDER-MAN: WITH GREAT POWER... #1-5 fit into all this?

Paul B.

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Aug 01, 2008 11:22 pm 
By cweed4

IF you want to consider it canon I don't think it would be that difficult. Most of the first 3 issues occur between the end of AAF 15 pg 6 (costume design) and the start of pg 7 (his tv appearance). I would guess the rest happens between pg 8 and the first panel of pg 9 (newspaper headlines make Spidey a sensation). Any FB's presented through the series would have to be considered separately.

My vote is for out-of-continuity though. Some of the drastically different character depictions (eg Ben & Flash) and modernized environment were unsettling. But, getting the name of his agent wrong should disqualify it immediately. And these are my beefs after only reading one issue!

			*	*	*

Aug 05, 2008 7:10 pm 
By Enda80

Re: the modernized environment-I seem to recall that for Emma Frost, tales of her youth in her eponymous series which featured technology (well, commonly available technology) that did not become commonly available until more recent times were not judged as excluding those stories from canon. Due to the vagaries of the sliding timescale, Frost's youth now took place X-15 years ago, not X-15 years from the 1980's (when she made her published debut). 

Does anyone recall where the analysis of the Emma Frost series appears in the archives? Does anyone know of any other flashback stories that have showed the sliding timescale in effect?

			*	*	*

Aug 06, 2008 9:27 am 
By newtron

betty brant has a computer at the bugle in webspinners tales of spider-man 8 and 9. i seem to remember seeing cellphones in some of the spidey insert stories too. i agree that this isn't really an issue, considering the sliding timescale. that doesn't negate other problems that may exist with the series, though.

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

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Aug 06, 2008 1:21 pm 
By cweed4

This topical/sliding timescale explanation was mentioned back when this series was first announced. I don't expect that such things would keep it out of MCP chronology but I mention it because I simply didn't like the first issue and that was just one of the problems. At some point I will read through the whole series and maybe my opinion will change then. I am curious as to how many differences there are which can't simply be ignored. (Like changing the agent's name, for example.)


Back to the SM:PL FB question. There are numerous (minor) discrepancies between its origin story and AF 15 (eg character clothing, dialogue, & re-ordered panels). Such things are usually discounted under the "topical" argument but I prefer to explain them as memory recall errors. This slight difference helps when making other origin comparisons as well (like w/ ASM 94).

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Sep 02, 2008 6:22 pm 
By Enda80

I forgot that another definite sign of the sliding timescale in action would involve Bloodshed's backstory. Said to take place during the early months of the Spider's crime-fighting, look at what he (the pre-Bloodshed Wydnell Dichinson) wore.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/bldshd.htm

This story got published in 1991.

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Sep 14, 2008 5:57 pm 
By newtron

i just finished reading with great power and i think it should be considered canonical. i'll probably do an analysis shortly.

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

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Thread 8

Subject: ASM 280 vs. WOSM 23

Sep 14, 2008 11:18 pm 
By cweed4

There are 2 incompatible continuity references from WOSM 19 and WOSM 23. In the former, Peter mentions Flash Thompson's status as an escaped criminal in a thought balloon. This took place in ASM 281 when Jack O'Lantern busted him out of jail. Peter then goes on an overseas adventure w/ Joy Mercado which lasts through the beginning of issue 23. Then there is a repeated scene in WOSM 23 (10) and ASM 280 (4:1-4:3) that links up continuity between the two comics. In that scene, Spidey is glad to be back safe in Manhattan while reading a newspaper ad from Silver Sable. The WOSM issue includes an editor's note to check out ASM 281 (to catch up w/ the Silver Sable story) while it continues "days later" on the next page. 

So from this, ASM 281 takes place before WOSM 19 which takes place before WOSM 23 which takes place before ASM 281. Clearly one of these errors needs to be overlooked when deciding on placement for these issues. IMO, an actual panel to panel scene repeated in 2 different comics would trump a thought balloon comment in trying to resolve such a problem. This would require the following shift-

Spidey
PPTSS 118
WOSM 21-FB
WOSM 19
WOSM 20
WOSM 21
WOSM 22
WOSM 23 (1-10) This issue already has a split entry and I just added the page designations for the one shifted here.
ASM 280

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Thread 9

Subject: Beast Chronology question regarding M/HOL 1994

Sep 19, 2008 1:01 pm 
By templedog1972

In the Beast Chronology there an entry for a Beast appearance in Marvel Holiday Special 1994 following Uncanny X-Men #47. This appearance is also listed as a flashback. I have searched the Marvel Holiday Special 1994 issue for his appearance and cannot find him. Can someone help me by supplying page and panel numbers for the flashback? 

Sincerely,

Temp

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Sep 19, 2008 1:12 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Um, he and Iceman share the entire lead story. It's very hard to miss.

I suspect you're looking at the Marvel Holiday Special 1993, which confusingly has "Jan 1994" on the front cover.

This is the comic you want:



-Jeph!

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Sep 19, 2008 1:29 pm 
By templedog1972

That would explain it. I thought that it was the Holiday Special with the yellow and red cover. Thank you so much for the help.

Temp

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Sep 19, 2008 5:18 pm 
By jephyork
Director

No problem! And welcome to the boards! 

-Jeph!

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Thread 10

Subject: Event ordering question

By Chris McCarver
Jul 28, 2008 3:25 am 

Out of curiosity, I was wondering if anyone had an idea of the ordering of the following two events:

The Richards/Storm wedding (FF@ 3 ~ M/H&L '96)
Spider-Man and Dr. Strange's encounter with Xandu (ASM@ 2)

Reason I ask is that I've seen multiple orderings in certain characters' chronologies...

SPIDER-MAN
[...]
FF@ 3
M/H&L '96
FF@ 3
MARVELS 3 (9)
ALIAS 23
ASM 28 (1 - 16)
WTS 7
WTS 8
WTS 9
ASM 28 (17 - 20)
SM:PL
ASM@ 2
[...]

DOCTOR STRANGE
[...]
ASM@ 2
FF@ 3
[...]

chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

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Jul 28, 2008 3:38 am 
By wolframbane

The Spider-Man Index #1 places ASM@ 2 between ASM 28 (Peter raduates high school) and ASM 29.

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Aug 01, 2008 10:57 am 
By Starman

The Marvel Saga (The Official History of the Marvel Universe) has this ordering:

The Marvel Saga (The Official History of the Marvel Universe) #19
[...]
Page 19 Spider-Man fights the Molten Man, Peter Parker graduates from Midtown High School earning a scholarship and Liz Allen breaks off her friendship with Peter. The Amazing Spider-Man (I) #28
[...]

The Marvel Saga (The Official History of the Marvel Universe) #21
[...]
(Without art) Dr. Strange and Spider-Man team-up against Xandu. The Amazing Spider-Man Annual #2 
Page 32 Dr. Doom swears revenge for his last defeat by the Fantastic Four. Fantastic Four Annual #3 

[...]

The Marvel Saga (The Official History of the Marvel Universe) #23
Page 1 Dr. Doom swears revenge. New art.
Pages 2 to 8 When Dr. Doom brings every available super-villain down on Reed and Sue's wedding, the present heroes fight them off long enough until Reed using a device given to him by the Watcher can defeat them. Reed and Sue are wed at last. Fantastic Four Annual #3, including new art.
[...]- Stefan

"Why so serious?"
- The Joker

"What, me worry?"
- Alfred E. Neuman

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Aug 01, 2008 4:47 pm 
By Chris McCarver

Thanks, guys... 

So does that mean that FF@ 3 should be placed after ASM 28 and ASM@ 2 on Spider-Man's chronology instead of before?

chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

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Aug 01, 2008 8:25 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Yes. According to the Official Marvel Index to the Fantastic Four #3, Spidey appears in FF@ 3 between ASM@ 2 as ASM 29.

Paul B.

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Aug 01, 2008 10:41 pm 
By cweed4

I couldn't find any mention of FF@ 3 in the OMITASM that would shed any light on the question. Is it only Spidey's placement that is off for the wedding? There are an awful lot of characters that appear in FF@ 3, M/H&L '96, & MARVELS 3.

			*	*	*

Aug 01, 2008 11:32 pm 
By Chris McCarver

Yeah, Spidey's is the only one appearing off. There are only two characters, though, that appeared in both ASM@ 2 and FF@ 3, namely Dr. Strange and Spider-Man himself. The fact that Strange's chronology shows ASM@ 2 happening before the wedding and Pete's showing the opposite was what sort of inspired the question. 

chris "mac" mccarver 
world's angriest creative mind 
get down with the sickness at 
http://www.chrismccarver.com

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Sep 24, 2008 12:46 pm 
By cweed4

Spidey's appearance in ALIAS 23 would also have to shift with these changes. In that issue Peter tries talking to Jessica Jones after she has already been adopted and started back to school at Midtown High. This story covers part 2 of her origin and part 1 referenced Galactus' 1st appearance (which occurs after the FF wedding). So, this would have to move past all the wedding listings (FF@ 3, M/H&L '96) as well as the Galactus stuff in MARVELS 3 at the very least.

This would place it (at the very earliest)-
ASM 36
MARVELS 3 (32 - 33)
ALIAS 23
ASM 37

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Thread 11

Subject: Age of the Sentry #1

Sep 22, 2008 7:05 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Does anyone have any ideas about the placement of the stories in AGE OF THE SENTRY #1?

It seems that the first story in this book occurs before the flashback in NEW AVENGERS #10 in which Bob Reynolds has his third date with Lindy Lee. The flashback in the first story is to Sentry's origin.

In the second story, the Mad Thinker and the Tinkerer team up against the Sentry. The Thinker is noted as "Jose Santini," an alias he adopted when he kidnapped the real Santini in FF 68-70. It would make sense that this story occurs sometime after that, and after the Thinker's subsequent stay in jail that lasted at least through FF 79.

Other thoughts?

Paul B.

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Sep 22, 2008 12:48 pm 
By wolframbane

Would anyone know when does Sentry give up his identity so that they can contain Void?

In AOS 1, Sentry makes a reference to disposing of Gorax's brain in the Negative Zone (despite the fact that when he said it, Sentry still had the brain in his hand...), so this would place it after the first appearance of the Zone in FF 51. It would also occur sometime after he first faced Void.

There were 2 flashbacks in the AOS 1. The second one involves the origin of Sentry, during which time he is described as a "student". The OHOTMU said he was active "years" before the FF, so I would place this at least a few years before FF 1.

The first flashback shows a montage of encounters during his career, including clashes with Men-Bot and Cranio (and Cranio has a second appearance BTS in the main story itself) and his first clash with Void. Sentry is also shown in a fiddling contest with the devil (Mephisto perhaps?).

The Professor, whose serum gives him his powers, has his name revealed in this issue.

The Lethio-Ray that they use to erase Lindy's memory seems to possibly the same technology used to later remove the world's memory of Sentry altogether.

Last edited by wolframbane on Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total. 

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Sep 22, 2008 3:44 pm 
By Somebody
Director

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
Would anyone know when does Sentry give up his identity so that they can contain Void?
<<<

It's (possibly deliberately) contradictory. The trade dress on the fake cover in question is late 80s/early 90s though.

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Sep 24, 2008 1:15 am 
By wolframbane

AOS 1 names the Professor as being named Professor Cornelius who, considering the formula's ties to Weapon X, may or may not be the same Professor Cornelius responsible for numerous Weapon X creations.

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Sep 24, 2008 5:04 pm 
By wolframbane

Another thing I have noticed is the love of Sentry's life is named Lindy Lee. This seems to parallel Sentry's obvious inspiration Superman, who tends to have people in his life with the initials "LL". Linda Lee (aka Supergirl), Lois Lane, Lana Lang, Lex Luthor, Lionel Luthor, Lightning Lad, Lena Luthor, Letitia Lerner, Lori Lemaris, Lucy Lane, Lara Lor-Van.

And I am not even gonna mention the Watchdog/Krypto the Superdog parallel!!

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Sep 24, 2008 6:28 pm 
By Enda80

Actually, the plot point introducing Sentry resembles that of another DC character Triumph, another "forgotten" adventurer. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_(comics)

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Thread 12

Subject: Mother Askani, Sanctity & misc.

Sep 18, 2008 5:42 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Okay, four simple corrections here:
1) The name should be MOTHER ASKANI/RACHEL SUMMERS | CABLE/ASKANI TIMELINE (or somesuch - I'm not precious about the exact designation for the timeline, but it needs noted, and her real name added).
2) UX -1 is placed FAR too late in her chronology. It should be moved to be MA's next appearance after X:P 3.
3) The appearances attributed to Mother Askani in the ASKANI'SON mini are actually Sanctity, and need to be moved accordingly (probably to between UX -1 and XM 25, but...), while I'm also wondering about the Askani'Son analysis that was done, and whether it needs an actual reanalysis in light of this...
4) Also, Sanctity's appearance in UX -1 is placed in with appearances with her as an old woman, whereas it should be far earlier.

And questions I can't answer for myself, either because they need comics I don't have, or because it wasn't made as clear as it should be:
a) C2 6-FB (Askani's FB). I'm not even clear on whether that's meant to be Rachel (if it is, the artist got her scars badly wrong - and it doesn't fit with the later C&P series) or Sanctity. If it's Rachel, as the narration seems to imply, then there's a paradox which doesn't work with the FBs to Stryfe's creation later in the story, as it MUST occur before her coma and death over the course of the C&P mini. And that paradox is the same problem with (c)
b) C2 23 & C2 24 (the appearance in C2 24 isn't in the MCP). Was this resolved somewhere else? Blaquesmith summons a vision of Mother Askani as an old woman in each instance that the narration makes clear is real, but whether it's a ghost, or linking to her before her death, is unclear. If it's not a ghost, then it can't directly relate to the time-travel in C2 25 since that's well after her death. Since she appears as an old woman, I'd suggest that it's before her death if this isn't resolved in another issue.
c) C2 65. Rachel appears as a young woman with her Hound scars. Again, whether she's time-travelling from a period before (well before in these instances) her death, or as a ghost is unclear (In C2 71, it seems she's a ghost - whether or not it makes any sense - so this may get lumped in with that).

MOTHER ASKANI/RACHEL SUMMERS | CABLE/ASKANI TIMELINE
Note: Diverges from Phoenix III/Rachel Summers after XCAL 75
X:P 1
X:P 2
X:P 3
UX -1
?? C2 23 (if Blaquesmith's meant to be contacting her before she died)
?? **C2 24 (if Blaquesmith's meant to be contacting her before she died)
C2 7-FB
C2 8-FB
? C2 6-FB (must take place before C&P 1)
C&P 1
*C&P 2-BTS |cf C&P 4| (she's actively holding Scott & Jean in the future/supplying their powers, but doesn't actually appear outside the figurative "remembrance" on pg 5)
C&P 3
C&P 4
?? C2 23 (if Blaquesmith's meant to be contacting her ghost)
?? **C2 24 (if Blaquesmith's meant to be contacting her ghost)
C2 65
C2 71

SANCTITY/TANYA TRASK
*UX -1
**ASKANISON 1
**ASKANISON 2
**ASKANISON 3
**ASKANISON 4
C&P2 2
C&P2 4
XM 25
C2 42
?? C2 50 [I can't see her here. -BTS |cf C2 42|, perhaps, but not on-panel anywhere]
C2 52-FB


And a few pieces of unrelated miscallany:

ENFORCER/DELAZNY 
Full name should be Charles L. Delazny, Jr. 

ENFORCER II/CARSON COLLIER 
Full name should be Carson Collier, Jr.

ESME
There's a rogue entry, for XXX 1, under "STEPFORD CUCKOOS: ESME" that should probably be merged with this. In turn, the two entries for XXX 1 that occur near New X-Men issues are in different places - after X 133 for Wolverine, but between X 128 and X 131 for Frost. I presume she appeared with Frost rather than Wolvie, but I don't have the issue.

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Sep 21, 2008 11:52 pm 
By DonCampbell

Somebody wrote:
>>>
ENFORCER/DELAZNY 
Full name should be Charles L. Delazny, Jr. 

ENFORCER II/CARSON COLLIER 
Full name should be Carson Collier, Jr.
<<<

While I'm glad to see that Somebody shares my opinion that "the" Enforcer was actually TWO different men wearing the same costume at different times, I must inform you that the Marvel Handbook people totally reject this idea. Instead, they are sticking with the Handbook's premise that there was only one Enforcer, that he was the younger Delazny, and that he called himself "Carson Collier" in one storyline simply as an alias. It doesn't really sit well with me but what can you do?

Don Campbell

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Sep 28, 2008 12:11 am 
By jannepie

Somebody wrote:
>>>
ESME
There's a rogue entry, for XXX 1, under "STEPFORD CUCKOOS: ESME" that should probably be merged with this. In turn, the two entries for XXX 1 that occur near New X-Men issues are in different places - after X 133 for Wolverine, but between X 128 and X 131 for Frost. I presume she appeared with Frost rather than Wolvie, but I don't have the issue.
<<<

IIRC Chris Claremont has said that Esme in XXX 1 was not the Stepford Cuckoo, but another one, although this is not canon.

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Thread 13

Subject: Doctor Strange's status quo

Sep 28, 2008 2:05 am 
By Somebody
Director

Since a few months have passed, I'm not going to bump the old thread ("New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?" if anyone wants to see it), but Bendis has now said he's going to follow up on that in post-SI New Avengers:


http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18245 wrote:
>>>
A fan asked about the new status quo for Doctor Strange. Bendis answered that in Stephens mind, hes failed at being Sorcerer Supreme, leading to his surrendering the role. So the question is  if hes not Sorcerer Supreme, who is?
<<<


http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080927-baltimore-cupofb.html wrote:
>>>
Why isn't Dr. Strange involved in Secret Invasion? Bendis: He has failed as a Sorcerer Supreme, so the question is -- if Dr. Strange isn't the Sorcerer Supreme, who is? That will all be answered in New Avengers post-Secret Invasion.
<<<

Again, I would be nervous about putting anything except Last Defenders #3 between NA@ 2 and SI for Strange, even preliminarily...

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Thread 14

Subject: Orson Randall and the Green Mist of Death

May 08, 2008 6:33 pm 
By DonCampbell

Analysis of Green Mist of Death

IMMORTAL IRON FIST: ORSON RANDALL AND THE GREEN MIST OF DEATH #1 (cover-dated April, 2008)

First, this one-shot contains four different stories concerning Orson Randalls encounters with John Aman, the Immortal Weapon known as the Prince of Orphans. Although all four stories are written by Matt Fraction, the artist(s) for each story is/are different.

Second, while The Immortal Iron Fist: Orson Randall and the Green Mist of Death appears to be the title for the overall story, the artistic credits on the first page refer to each story separately (i.e. Part One, Part Two, etc.). Thus, for the sake of convenience, Im going to subdivide the listing into its four component stories.

Third, I really have no idea what code to use for this one-shot. If we just go by the initials we get IIFORATGMOD but thats too long. Maybe ORATGMOD would be better? Anyway, until someone corrects me, Im just going to use GMOD because its short.

Finally, there are no flashbacks in these stories and no exact temporal references as to how much time passes between each of them. This is a bit frustrating but fortunately theres enough context in the stories to allow for their placement relative to the Orson Randall stories that appeared in IF@ 1.

Since the only two characters who appear in all four stories are Orson Randall and John Aman, Im going to analyze each story separately.

Page 1 is a recap/title/credits page. It doesnt provide any new information.

The Immortal Iron Fist: Orson Randall and the Green Mist of Death (Part One)
Pages 2 to 10
Appearances: Confederates of the Curious (Orson Randall, Shadu the Shady, Chores MacGillicuddy, Wendell, L.P., Contessa, and the dog), Prince of Orphans (John Aman)

Synopsis: While performing at an occult speakeasy called the 53rd Card, Shadu the Shady passes out on stage. After he revives and tells his fellow Confederates of the Curious that he had passed out after seeing a whirl of green smoke associated with a man in the audience, Orson realizes that John Aman, the Prince of Orphans, has found him. Orson warns his friends that they are in danger and they all flee through a mystic secret passage, barely escaping from Aman. Later, when the Confederates regroup at the docks, Orson learns that Wendell has gone after the magic coins and he then goes back for Wendell. Orson finds Wendell but Aman shows up and Wendell has to rescue them both (using the retractable glider in his backpack). The reunited Confederates then travel by boat to Singapore.

References: This is the first (of two) encounters between the Confederates of the Curious and John Aman. The fact that L.P. is a member of the Confederates indicates that its after his first meeting with Orson in 1926 (IF5 #3). Since Wendell appears to be younger in this story than the fifteen-year-old he was in the second flashback in IF Annual #1, Im placing this story before that flashback. However, theres nothing in either story that proves that conclusively.

Finally, the (unnamed) dog that appears in this story is a different colour and breed from Barko who was in the aforementioned flashback.


The Immortal Iron Fist: Orson Randall and the Green Mist of Death (Part Two)
Pages 11 to 19
Appearances: Confederates of the Curious (Orson Randall, Shadu the Shady, Chores MacGillicuddy, Wendell, Contessa and several unnamed other), Cowgirls from Hell (four members, only Red is named), Prince of Orphans (John Aman)

Synopsis: In an Old West-style town, Chores MacGillicuddy wakes up in a cell after a night of drinking and the lasses from the saloon inform him that hes fallen into a honey trap and is being used as bait so that they can collect the bounty from John Aman, the Prince of Orphans. Orson arrives to bail Chores out but Chores manages to warn him about Aman. The Cowgirls from Hell attack Orson but the Confederates of the Curious ride in to help Orson. In the midst of the battle, a green mist gushes from Reds mouth and John Aman appears. Aman states that hes come to retrieve the stolen property that Orson has in his possession, the seven sacred coins, one from each of Heavens capital cities. As Orson and Aman battle, Chores frees himself but is fatally injured when he gets in between them. His injury ends the battle and Aman allows Orson to use the Iron Fist to heal Chores. Aman states that Orson using his friends as human shields violates the code of the Immortal Weapons. As he disappears, Aman warns Orson that if he allows his friends to stand with him, then his crimes and his punishments will also be theirs. Orson states that Aman will resume hunting him at sunup and he then disbands the Confederates of the Curious.

References: Since this is the last adventure of the Confederates of the Curious, it must take place after both the first story from this special and the second flashback in the IF Annual.

L.P. does not appear to be with the Confederates at this time. At least, he is not identified by name and none of the unnamed characters look much like him. Also, there is no dog with the group in this story but there are several unnamed men riding with them.


The Immortal Iron Fist: Orson Randall and the Green Mist of Death (Part Three)
Pages 20 to 28
Appearances: Orson Randall, Wendell, the Frankenstein Monster (aka Frank), Dr. Doc Frankenstein, John Aman

Synopsis: On a rainy night in a forest somewhere in Europe, Orson carries a mortally-wounded Wendell to a castle where he is recognized by the Frankenstein Monster who lets them in. Orson carries Wendell down to the laboratory and begs Doc (the son of his friend) to treat Wendell. Doc agrees to operate on Wendell but then has the monster knock Orson unconscious. When Orson revives he finds himself strapped to an operating table and Doc reveals that he is not the son of Frankenstein, he is Frankenstein himself who has transplanted his brain into the body of his own son. As Doc prepares to cut open Orsons skull, a green mist appears and kills him, then reforms into John Aman. After revealing that he had found them by following the unique vibrations emitted by the coins, Aman works together with Orson to save Wendells life. The next day, Aman promises that he will nurse Wendell back to health but that Wendell will now stay with him instead of Orson. As Orson leaves, he challenges Aman to find out exactly how the coins got out of the seven cities and to Earth.

References: The only temporal reference in this one-shot occurs when Orson reminds the Frankenstein Monster that he wasnt afraid of him when they met in Germany fifteen years ago. For reasons Ill explain below, this story probably takes place after 1963 and that would place Orsons encounter with the monster in 1948 (or later).

The castle is described as an old hiding place of Docs father. It is somewhere in Europe but not in Germany.

Although from his size Doc appears to be a boy, the fact that Orson came to him for medical treatment would seem to indicate that he is actually a small adult.

The involvement of the Frankensteins and their monster in this story complicates things somewhat. Apparently some members of the Randall and Frankenstein families had been friends for two generations. It began when Orsons father Phineas and the senior Frankenstein were roommates at university. Since Phineas was an adult and an accomplished inventor before 1900, that suggests that their university days were in the 1890s. At some later point, perhaps when Orson met the monster in Germany, that same Doctor Frankenstein met Orson and they became friends without Orson ever knowing that this doctor had known Phineas. At the same time (or maybe later) Orson may have met the doctors son, Doc. Apparently, the older Frankenstein later supposedly died but actually survived by having transplanted his brain into the body of his own useless son in order to escape those damned Germans and their mobs and pitchforks. I can only assume that this story depicts the first time that Orson had encountered Doc since the death of the older Frankenstein.

So, how do these Frankensteins fit in with the previously-established Frankensteins in the Marvel Universe? Not very well at all. According to the Appendix to the Handbook of the Marvel Universe, the only adult male Frankensteins known to be alive between the late 19th Century and the modern era were Vincent, Basil and Ludwig. Vincent was killed in 1898 but was survived by Basil, his newborn son. As an adult, Basil worked with the Nazis until killed by his own monster in early 1942. Finally, Basils son Ludwig died during an encounter with the Silver Surfer in the early modern era. Vincent could have attended university with Phineas pre-1900 but he was dead before Orson first traveled from Kun-Lun to Earth. Basil was Vincents only son but he could only have been at university with Phineas if the latter had attended university after he returned from Kun-Lun. Also, Basil died at least 20 years before Doc was killed. Finally, Ludwig is known to have been alive at least 20 years after Doc died. Since none of these three could have been the Doctor Frankenstein known by both Phineas and Orson Randall, I am forced to conclude that this Frankenstein and his son were members of a previously-unknown branch of the family. Maybe Docs father was Vincents cousin?

As for the (original) Frankenstein Monster, he was frozen in the Arctic from the late 18th Century until he was thawed in 1898. After a brief period of activity, the monster was frozen again and remained that way until the second half of the 20th Century (i.e. in the modern era). I dont see how Orsons two encounters with Frank can be made to fit in with the original monsters chronology. Perhaps this new Frankenstein also created his own monster?


The Immortal Iron Fist: Orson Randall and the Green Mist of Death (Part Four)
Pages 29 to 37
Appearances: Orson Randall, L.P., Contessa Vera, various HYDRA agents (all unnamed), Professor Phineas Randall, Prince of Orphans (John Aman)

Synopsis: Now living in a small house (maybe in Tibet?), a drunken Orson receives a telegram from France which informs him that his father is dying in Paris. Orson goes to Paris and asks L.P. and Contessa to help him see his father because he suspects that Aman is using Phineas as bait in a trap. L.P. and Contessa check out all the hospitals in Paris and discover one where the personnel are wearing HYDRA rings. When Orson sneaks into the room where he believes his father is he discovers that its a set-up for him to receive a message from Aman who offers to let him see his dying father if he allows Amans HYDRA agents to escort him to Amans jungle kingdom of ZGambo in Africa. Orson agrees and is taken to ZGambo but is surprised when Aman confesses that he was merely playing the part of a villain because thats what Orson was expecting. Aman reveals that he listened to Orsons advice and his investigation of the coins led him to Phineas who refused to answer his questions unless Orson approved. With Orsons consent, Phineas reveals that he built a gateway to Earth in each of the Seven Capital Cities of Heaven, information which devastates Aman. Orson stays with Phineas until he dies and then Aman reveals that he will no longer hunt him. When Aman states his determination to make someone pay for this betrayal, Orson suggests that he seek out the Thunderer of Kun-Lun who is raising an army in preparation for staging a revolution at the next time the Seven Cities intersect. Orson leave ZGambo, determined to find Wendell and stop him from becoming the next Iron Fist.

References: The fact that Orson knows about the gateways between Earth and the Seven Cities and that L.P. can recognize the HYDRA insignia means that this story must take place after the IF Annuals third flashback (which was set in 1963).

Also, the fact that Orson had to tell L.P. about how he left Wendell in Europe means that the previous story also must take place after the IF Annuals third flashback. Otherwise, if that 1963 flashback had taken place between the third and fourth stories in this one-shot, then L.P. would have already known that Orson had separated from Wendell.


Character Listings:

In IF #10 & 12 it was revealed that the Prince of Orphans is the only Immortal Weapon who had fought in previous tournaments, that Orsons killing of the Crane Champion from Kun-Zi occurred during the last tournament, and that the Prince of Orphans was one of those who tried to take Orsons gifts from him. With these facts in mind, some of the listings for Orson Randall should be shifted in his chronology. Ive marked them with a + as opposed to a * for new listings.

Also, although Ive placed the second flashback from IF@ 1 between the first two stories of GMOD, it could be that those two stories are meant to BOTH take place after that flashback. In either case, I think that the only three stories which feature the Confederates of the Curious should be grouped together.


COUNTESSA VERA VIDAL
*GMOD 1/1
{IF@ 1-FB}
*GMOD 1/2
*GMOD 1/4
IF@ 1


ERSKINE, ERNST/LUCKY PIERRE/L.P.
{IF5 3 (1926)}
IF@ 1-FB (1928)
IF5 6
*GMOD 1/1
IF@ 1-FB (Harlem)
IF@ 1-FB (1963)
*GMOD 1/4
IF@ 1


IRON FIST-1915/ORSON RANDALL/"Golden Age Iron Fist"
IF5 4-FB (pre-birth arrival in Kun-Lun)
IF5 4-FB (training under Lei Kung, becoming the Iron Fist, leaving Kun-Lun)
IF5 2-FB (1916)
IF5 4-FB (fighting in WWI)  may be before and/or after IF5 2-FB
+IF5 4-FB (returning to Kun-Lun)  moved from later
+IF5 5-FB (killing the Crane Champion in 1933)  moved from later  also, does NOT take place in 1933 after all
+IF5 4-FB (fleeing Kun-Lun)  moved from later
IF5 3 (1926)
IF@ 1-FB (1928)
IF5 6 (first meets Wendell in Nepal)
*GMOD 1/1
IF@ 1-FB (with 15-year-old Wendell in Harlem)
*GMOD 1/2
IF5 9-FB (training Wendell)
IF@ 1-FB (1963)
*GMOD 1/3
*GMOD 1/4
+IF5 6 (warns Wendell not to go to Kun-Lun)  moved from earlier
{IF5 1}
. . . . .


MACGILLICUDDY, SEAMUS/CHORES
*GMOD 1/1
{IF@ 1-FB}
*GMOD 1/2
IF@ 1


PRINCE OF ORPHANS/JOHN AMAN
IF5 5-FB
*GMOD 1/1
*GMOD 1/2
*GMOD 1/3
*GMOD 1/4
IF5 8
IF5 9
. . . . .


SHADU THE SHADY
*GMOD 1/1
{IF@ 1-FB}
*GMOD 1/2


RAND, WENDELL
IF5 6 (first meets Orson in Nepal)
*GMOD 1/1 (as a boy with the Confederates of the Curious)
IF@ 1-FB (15-year-old Wendell in Harlem)
*GMOD 1/2
*GMOD 1/3
IF5 9-FB (being trained by Orson)
IF5 6 (warned by Orson not to go to Kun-Lun)
IF5 8 (arrives in Kun Lun)
. . . . .


RANDALL, PHINEAS
*IF5 4-FB
*GMOD 1/4

Note: I've edited this post to correct an error I made in the listing for the Prince of Orphans. I had mistakenly listed IF5 5-FB as occurring between GMOD 1/4 and IF5 8 when it was actually his first appearance.

Don Campbell

Last edited by DonCampbell on Sat May 10, 2008 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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May 09, 2008 10:27 am 
By ShadZ

Interesting fact that doesn't affect chronology:

Prince of Orphans/John Aman is apparently the Earth-616 version of Earth-1136's Amazing Man/John Aman (I learned this from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazing_Man_%28Golden_Age%29)ShadZ

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May 09, 2008 6:24 pm 
By Enda80

Roy Thomas has noted that he intentionally homaged Amazing Man in fashioning Iron Fist. 

Other than that:
Did the monster in this story wear a bear pelt vest? The original FM wears a bear pelt.

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May 09, 2008 7:02 pm 
By Enda80

http://en.marveldatabase.com/Frankenstein_6
There was also a Jason Frankenstein, whose place in the family tree was missed in Doctor Strange III#37's retelling of the Frankenstein family history.

Silver Surfer I#7 refers to a Henry Frankenstein, but that probably represents Peggy Webling's influence, renaming "Victor" as "Henry".

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May 13, 2008 6:16 pm 
By DonCampbell

Enda80 wrote:
>>>
Did the monster in this story wear a bear pelt vest? The original FM wears a bear pelt.
<<<

Yes, this Frankenstein Monster (called "Frank" by Doc) is shown wearing a fur vest. Whether or not it's a bear pelt isn't mentioned. Also, his speech is impaired so that he can only grunt. Most of those grunts are unintelligible but when he recognized Orson he was able to grunt "ORRRTH! ORRRRRTH!" which I take to be him trying to say "Orson."


Enda80 wrote:
>>>
There was also a Jason Frankenstein, whose place in the family tree was missed in Doctor Strange III#37's retelling of the Frankenstein family history.
<<<

If this mysterious Jason was the right age to have been "at university" with Phineas Randall prior to 1900, then he could be the Dr. Frankenstein who later became Orson's friend. Of course, if he was (at least) a teenager in the 1890's, then he would have to have been over sixty years old when Orson first encountered him (in or after 1948). And "Doc" would be his son.

Don Campbell

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May 13, 2008 6:31 pm 
By Enda80

"Yes, this Frankenstein Monster (called "Frank" by Doc) is shown wearing a fur vest. Whether or not it's a bear pelt isn't mentioned."

I guess this apparently new Frankenstein Monster was created as an intentional duplicate of the original Frankenstein Monster. If so, perhaps the Frankenstein (I refer to the scientist) went to such lengths to match detail that he studied reports of the original Frankenstein Monster and when he heard of the vest the original monster wore had a duplicate made.

(By the way, the fur vest of the FM in his MVL appearances was inspired by the 1939 film The Son of Frankenstein, released in 1939. This film was also the first appearance of the Ygor or Igor character, who later appeared in a story in Creatures on the Loose#12-despite being a creation of Universal and not being present in Mary Shelley's novel. Anyway, in that story, Igor served a member of the Frankenstein family who perished. Igor decided to create a new servant for himself, but ended up becoming a servant again, as he used the brain of the "original Baron Frankenstein".)

I guess the writer, being on a retro-1930's and 1940's kick, decided to throw in an homage to the Universal films of the 1930's and 1940's, but it is too bad that he used the Frankenstein family instead of, say, Dracula; for homage purposes, the Frankenstein family is more appropriate, since Universal made more Frankenstein films than Dracula films in the 1930's to 1940's, but the Frankenstein family's history has been rather comprehensively detailed.

I just remembered something. In the Marvel Atlas#1, reference was made to a Viennese branch of the Frankenstein family. Also, Jean-Marc Lofficier has an unpublished story about the Frankenstein family whose script floats around. The story was to feature Shamrock and Le Peregrine.

Also, Sporr, whose story from Tales of Suspense#11 (1960) got established as a part of Marvel continuity by Hulk Annual#5, got produced in the Frankenstein castle-unfortunately in Transylvania! (Placing the Frankenstein family in Transylvania is one of those faux pas moments where people meld elements from different series that stands on par with people who think Jason Voorhees uses a chainsaw-that is actually Leatherface's m.o.).

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Aug 29, 2008 3:46 am 
By wolframbane

ShadZ wrote:
>>>
Interesting fact that doesn't affect chronology:

Prince of Orphans/John Aman is apparently the Earth-616 version of Earth-1136's Amazing Man/John Aman (I learned this from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazing_Man_%28Golden_Age%29)
<<<

Amazing-Man also has a non-Marvel appearance in Project Superpowers by Dynamite Entertainment. And his original Public Domain adventures may be viewed here:
http://goldenagecomics.co.uk/

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Sep 14, 2008 11:28 am 
By Enda80

The recent hardcover Handbook notes this recent story in the Frankenstein Monster entry, but makes no attempt to fit it in with the established Earth-616 family tree of the Frankensteins. The mention of the story appears in a note en passant referring to various Frankenstein stories I dredged up from Donald Glut's The Frankenstein Catalog. 

Since Miskatonic University exists on Earth-616, one starts to prefer that Herbert West had appeared in this story in place of the Frankensteins.

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Thread 15

Subject: X-Factor: Layla Miller (one-shot) analysis...

Sep 15, 2008 10:56 pm 
By Kevin W.
Director

X-Factor: Layla Miller
Written by Peter David
Pencils by Valentine De Landro
Inks and Finishes by Andrew Hennessy

This whole one-shot is set in the desolate future where we last left Layla Miller, (during the "Messiah Complex" crossover). Thus, it'll have no bearing on the present day Calendar, but it will have a listing in Layla Miller's chronology.

Appearances: Layla Miller. 

The rest of the cast are people of a possible future which will probably be erased in a couple years as Marvel editorial moves on to it's next "mutant apocalyptic future", but they include a future Cyclops, Ruby, (the daughter of Scott and Emma), a mutant rabble-rouser named Linqon, and a kid named "Dwayne" who takes a fancy to Layla.

Synopsis: Layla Miller escapes from the concentration camp where she is being held when pieces of an old satellite fall out of orbit and destroy the concentration camp, (providing Layla with an exit. She knew it was going to happen).

She then proceeds to start sowing the seeds of taking down the corrupt government of this nightmarish future. She rescues a delinquent mutant named Linqon from the police. To a group of mutant sympathizers, she spreads rumors that the government is going to start testing everyone for the mutant gene, who in turn spread the word to the mainstream media. The government wasn't really planning for such a public crack down just yet, but the media frenzy forces them to take up the idea, creating a state of unrest across the nation. With her new friend Dwayne, (a non-mutant who becomes interested in Layla after he sees her rescue Linqon), she travels to Atlantic City, New Jersey, where she finds an elderly Cyclops being cared for by his daughter Ruby, (who has a mixture of Scott and Emma's powers). 

Future Scott notes that he's been waiting for Layla to appear for 20 years. He and Ruby take a photo of Layla, saying that Layla will give this photo to him when she gets back to the present day, (which reveals that Layla will soon be traveling back in time, perhaps in reverse of Cable, who's apparently traveling continuously forward in time).

Layla convinces Ruby to lead a rebellion. The government makes a public service announcement declaring that they are going to start rounding up everybody to test for the mutant gene, and the public finally has had enough. Ruby, (along with Linqon and Dwayne) launch an assault on the Sentinels who stand guard in New York City, and the public backs them. Layla watches the battle unfold, satisfied for now.

The End.

References: The opening narrative caption reads, "Mutant Containment Center, Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn. Winter, Eighty Years from Now." So yeah, we're 80 years in the future. 

Also, Ruby notes that if she were to turn off her "Ruby skin" powers, she fears she would revert to being "70 years old" in appearance. I kinda doubt that we're going to see Scott and Emma concieve Ruby in the present day Marvel comics any time soon...

(new entries = *)

MILLER, LAYLA
XF3 27
*XF: LAYLA MILLER

Keeping track of Bendis References since 2001!

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Sep 16, 2008 6:50 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks for the analysis, Kevin. 

Paul B.

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Thread 16

Subject: September call for analyses

Sep 01, 2008 6:01 pm 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Happy Labor Day, everyone! Here's the latest update to the call for analyses for the Calendar. If you see an issue or story arc without a name, feel free to sign up! A big thank you to everyone who submits analyses to this forum!  

And if I got any of the assignments or listings wrong, please let me know.

Completed stories (as of 9/1/08)
Amazing Spider-Man Family #1 (Michael)
Cable v3 #3-5
ClanDestine v2 #1-5 (Don)
Daredevil v2 #107-110 (Col_Fury)
Daredevil: Battlin Jack Murdock #1-4 (JD)
Daredevil: Dead On Arrival (Jeph)
Foolkiller v2 #1-5
Franklin Richards: Summer Smackdown!
Ghost Rider v6 #26 (Col_Fury)
Ghost Rider Annual #2 (Col_Fury)
Guardians of the Galaxy v2 #1-3
Immortal Iron Fist #10-14 (Don)
Immortal Iron Fist #15-16 (Don)
Immortal Iron Fist: The Origin of Danny Rand
Moon Knight v5 #14-19 (Deuce)
Moon Knight v5 #20 (Deuce)
Nova v4 #13-15 (Kevin)
Wolverine: Killing Made Simple (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: Origins #26-27 (Col_Fury)

Future stuff
Amazing Spider-Man Family #2
Angel: Revelations #1-5 (wolframbane)
Big Hero Six #1-5
Captain America: Theater of War  Operation Zero-Point [pre-FF 1] (Col_Fury)
Captain America: White #0-6 [pre-FF 1] (Col_Fury)
Daredevil v2 #111 (Col_Fury)
Daredevil v2 #112-?
Daredevil & Captain America: Dead on Arrival
Dead of Night Featuring Devil Slayer #1-4
Eternals, v4 #1-? (Col_Fury)
Eternals Annual #1
Foolkiller: White Angels #1-5
Franklin Richards: Sons of Geniuses 
Ghost Rider v6 #27 (Col_Fury)
Ghost Rider v6 #28-?
Ghost Rider: Danny Ketch #1-5
Guardians of the Galaxy v2 #7-?
Immortal Iron Fist #17-20
Immortal Iron Fist: Orson Randall and the Death Queen of California
King-Size Cable Spectacular #1
Marvel 1985 #1-6
Marvel Apes #1-4
Marvel Zombies v3 #1-4
Nova v4 #19-?
NYX: No Way Home #1-6
Punisher v7 #56-60 (Col_Fury)
Punisher v7 #61-?
Punisher War Journal v2 #18-23
Punisher War Journal Annual #1
Runaways v3 #1-? (JD) 
Skaar: Son of Hulk #2-? (Kevin)
Skaar: Son of Hulk Presents: Savage World of Sakaar (Kevin)
Sub-Mariner: The Depths #1-4 [pre-FF 1] (Frederic)
Thor: The Truth of History #1 [pre-FF 1]
Venom: Dark Origin #1-5
Weapon X: First Class #1-3
Wolverine v3 #66-73 (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: Chop Shop
Wolverine: Manifest Destiny #1-4
Wolverine: Origins #28 (Col_Fury)
Wolverine: Roar (Col_Fury)
X-Men: Magneto  Testament #1-5 [pre-FF 1] (wolframbane)
X-Men Origin: Beast (wolframbane)

Paul B.

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Sep 13, 2008 7:43 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
Daredevil: Dead On Arrival (Jeph)
<<<

I was gonna use my Panini "Marvel Europa" TPB, which has an English translation of this issue, to do the write-up -- but it looks like Marvel's about to publish a re-translated, "official USA version" sometime in the future. (Just like they did with "Wolverine: Saudade", thank goodness.) So I'll wait.

-Jeph!

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Sep 16, 2008 1:41 pm 
By wolframbane

I would also like to do X-Men Origins Jean Grey. I am reviewing XO Beast right now, but it seem too many plot points clash with the original telling. I am stilling working on it though so keep your fingers crossed!!

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Sep 17, 2008 6:46 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
I would also like to do X-Men Origins Jean Grey.
<<<

Okay, wolframbane. Thanks.

Paul B.

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Thread 17

Subject: MARVEL APES #1-2

Sep 20, 2008 2:42 am 
By wolframbane

Here is my review for for the first two issues of MARVEL APES. Yes, I purchased MARVEL APES, don't judge me!!!!

MARVEL APES #1
November 2008
"Apes of Wrath"
22 pages

EARTH-616
Characters: The Gibbon (Martin "Marty" Blank), Dr. Fiona Fitzhugh
Guest Stars: The Avengers (Iron Man (Tony Stark), Wasp (Janet Van Dyne), Ms. Marvel (Carol Danvers), Black Widow (Natasha Romanov))
Villains: Red Ghost (Ivan Kragoff) and his Super-Apes (Mikhlo, Igor and Peotr) 
Flashbacks: Spider-Man (Peter Parker), Spider-Man Revenge Squad (Spot (Dr. Jonathan Ohnn), Kangaroo (Brian Hibbs), Grizzly (Maxwell Markham), Gibbon (Martin Blank)), Princess Python (Zelda DuBois) and her (third?) python

MONKEYVERSE
Characters: Ape-Vengers (Spider-Monkey, Speedball (Robbie Baldwin), Ape X (Roy Reyna; not to be confused with Ape-X from SQS 5), Iron Mandrill (Tony Stark), Gro-Rilla (ie Yellowjacket), Juggermonk, Scarlet Witch, Thorangutan, Jarvis, Hawkeye (mentioned only), Wasp (Jan, mentioned only), unnamed simian counterparts to Ms. Marvel, Quicksilver, Sandman and others), Fantastic Four (Mr. Baboon (Reed Richards), Sue Storm, Johnny Storm (both their codenames unrevealed), Ben (surname and codename unrevealed))
Villains: Dr. Ooktopus (Otto Ooktavius, "Doc Ook")

(1-3:2) The Gibbon (Marty Blank) is at a bank when the Red Ghost and his Super-Apes attack. Before he can stop them, the Avengers (Iron Man, Wasp, Ms. Marvel, Black Widow) arrive and defeat them.
(3:3)-FB The Gibbon approaches Spider-Man to become his partner, and Spidey laughs at him. This appears to cover additional dialogue between ASM 110 (17:3) and ASM 110 (17:4).
(3:4)-FB The Spider-Man Revenge Squad (Spot, Kangaroo, Grizzly, Gibbon) fight amongst themselves next to a knocked-out Spidey. This probably occurs sometime during Spectacular Spider-Man #245-246.
(3:5)-FB Gibbon and Princess Python separate. PP is holding the python that Gibbon gave her after her previous python Pythagoras had gotten sick and died in Punisher War Journal #16 (Pythagoras was at least her second Python, as her first one was dropped into a vat of acid by Iron Man many years ago). This occurs sometime between Punisher War Journal #16 and M/APES 1. Gibbon was nearly hairless in Punisher War Journal #16, apparently due to M-Day, but his hair has since grown back moreso by this flashback.
(4:1) Marty is in his apartment looking at his old Gibbon suit in the closet. He holds a DB newspaper with the caption "Ghost Busted By Avengers". Another paper has the ad "Superpowered Individuals Wanted For Indepth Study". Probably the same night as M/APES 1 (1-3:2).
BTS - Marty responds to the ad, and the "next day I'm at State University." One day after M/APES 1 (1-3:2) and (4:1). This is probably State U in Hegeman, NY (Reed Richards and Ben Grimm's alma mater, not Empire State Univ in NYC).
(4:2-6) At State U, Marty is studied by Dr. Fiona Fitzhugh ("the recipient of the Reed Richards Fellowship for Multidisciplinary Excellence") for days, and she notices a "doppler shift" in his Kirlian aura. She analyzes the doppler shift with the Inter-Dimensional Experimental Access (IDEA) facility, and they are accidentally pulled thru a vortex. Occurs at night during a full moon, at approximately 12:10 am (according to clock tower). It is the fourth day of testing ("In four long days and nights... her's is the only face I've seen."), probably four days after M/APES 1 (4:1), five if you consider it is after midnight. It is implied that Marty is not a mutant per se, but may be otherdimensional.
(7-10) Marty and Fiona find themselves in the arboreal "Monkhattan" in the "monkeyverse" or "Marvel Apes Universe." They encounter the intellgient simian inhabitants, and steal some clothes to blend in. Daytime after night in (4:2-6).
(11-16) Wandering through Monkhattan, Marty and Fiona observe a battle between this universe's Spider-Monkey, Speedball and Ape X vs. Dr. Ooktopus. Marty itervenes and helps capture Doc Ook. Spider-Monkey and Ape X take Marty of Ape-Vengers Tower and Speedball Fiona to see their Reed Richards (Mr. Baboon). Ape X makes a reference to Doc Ook's failure to steal the Serpent Crown.
(17-18) At Ape-Vengers Tower, Marty meets Iron Mandrill and Gro-Rilla (ie Yellowjacket). He notices several apparently reformed villains on the team.
(19) Marty is honored to meet the gorilla Captain America. He is offered the chance to become a super hero.
(20) At the FF headquarters (which is the Freedoms Four Plaza building), Speedball introduces Fiona to the Fantastic Four. Mr. Baboon tells her of the failed rocket experiment that gave them their powers, but which also transformed Sue into a human. As he could not cure her condition, he assumed Fiona was also mutated, but she informs him she is from another dimension. Reed calls Sue his "girlfriend" and Cap calls her "Sue Storm" in M/APES 2, implying Reed and Sue are unmarried.
(21-22) "After a few hours" of discussing his code name (Marty prefers "Ninja Monk"), he accompanies Cap and the several other Ape-Vengers (except for Ape X and a handful of others) to the sub-levels of the Tower, where they judge Doc Ook guilty and rip out his tentacles. Marty is horrified as the Ape-Vengers seemingly beat Ook to death.

MARVEL APES #1/2
"The Official History of Apes of the Marvel Apes Universe, Part 1: When Simians Clash"
8 pages
The Monkeyverse Watcher gives a brief history of his universe, focusing on Galactus, the Celestials, the Eternals and Deviants, Two-Gun Chimp and Rawhide Chimp battling the James gang, the Invaders battling Adolf Hitler and the Nazis, and the dawning of "The Marvel Age of Apes."

MARVEL APES #2
November 2008
"See No Evil"
23 pages

EARTH-616
Characters: The Gibbon, Dr. Fiona Fitzhugh
Guest Stars: Captain America (James Barnes), Spider-Man (Peter Parker, both appear on video screen)

MONKEYVERSE
Characters: Ape-Vengers (Captain America, Ape X, Spider-Monkey, Speedball, Thorangutan, Wasp, Iron Mandrill, unnamed counterpart to Ms. Marvel, and others), Fantastic Four (Mr. Baboon (dies), Sue Storm, Johnny Storm, Ben), Wolverine, unnamed counterparts to Dr. Druid, Ghost Rider, Mach 5, Iron Fist, Dagger, Hulk, Power Man, Punisher, Cyclops, Elektra, Nightcrawler, Storm, Iceman, Beast, Colossus, possibly Cannonball, and others
Villains: Invaders (Bucky, Red Raven, Sub-Mariner, Toro), Dr. Ooktopus (dies)

(1) The Monkeyverse Watcher briefly recaps the events of last issue.
(2-4) After the Ape-Vengers nearly beat Doc Ook to death, Captain America dismisses them and Marty from the room. The Invaders (Bucky, Red Raven, Sub-Mariner, Toro) enter the room and they proceed to kill Ook. Same day as M/APES 1 (7-22). Cap mentions the original Torch ("Simian Torch" from M/APES 1/2) was no longer a member. This seems to imply Johnny from the Fantastic Four is also "Simian Torch". Note there was also a Simian Torch from the Peter Porker, the Spectacular Spider-Ham series.
(5-7) A bothered Marty is reunited with Ape X, Spidey and Speedball, as well as Fiona, who tells him Reed may be able to help them return to Earth-616. Cap meets Fiona and is particularly interestedin the fact they are from another dimension. Reed said it should take "two days" to construct a gateway to send them home.
(8-12) Marty, Speedball (as Robbie Baldwin) and Ape X (as Roy Reyna) are having lunch outside. Ape X explains he gained his powers from an enchanted Mexican wrestling mask. They briefly clash with Wolverine of the X-Apes, who are wanted outcasts, but Wolverine escapes. Marty is informed Reed finished the gateway and there is trouble in Wookanda. Daytime. Marty has been in the monkeyverse for days ("The next days ate the longest years of my life"), probably for "two days" from (5-7).
(13-20) That night at Freedoms Four Plaza, Marty arrives and Fiona informs him the FF are off stopping the Frightful Four from sinking Monkhattan Island. Fiona tries to use Marty's bio-energy signature to open the gateway, but finds she cannot as "your signature is more closely aligned with this dimension than our own." Cap observes and reveals he arranged for the Frightful Four's activities so the FF would be absent. After seeing a video image of the Captain America (Barnes) of Earth-616 and revealing he intention to invade Earth-616, Reed Richards arrives and attacks Cap. Having deduced Cap is a vampire, Reed tries to kill Cap with a wooden stake, but is himself impaled and slain. The Invaders, also all vampires, arrive, but Fiona causes a distraction allowing her and Marty to escape thru a window. As the Invaders unsuccessfully pursue them, Cap tells Bucky they are going to invade Earth-616 for an endless energy supply. As Marty flees with Fiona, he encounters Speedball, who knocks him unconscious. Night immediately after M/APES 2 (8-12). Full moon (if the monkeyverse is synchronistic with the orbital phases of Earth-616, this could be the third night of the full moon, with the first night being from M/APES 1 (4:2-6)).
(21-22:4) Cap and Sue Storm hold a televised press conference. Cap claims Marty and Fiona tricked Reed into creating a portal to allow their world to invade the monkeyverse, and then murdered him. He announces his intention to launch a pre-emptive strike against Earth-616. Probably the following day. Note their nation is refered to as the United Simians of America.
(22:5-23) Marty awakens and finds himself bound. He is confrontated by Speedball, and a large gathering of other heroes. Note the stylized window above indicates they are probably in Dr. Strange's Sanctum Sanctorum.

MARVEL APES #2/2
"The Official History of Apes of the Marvel Apes Universe, Part 2: When Simians Clash Again"
8 pages
The Monkeyverse Watcher, now drunk, describes "The Marvel Age of Apes," focusing on the Wasp and the origin of Thorangutan of Apesgard, before he bangs his head and passes out.

This series occurs after ASM3 554 (reference to the DB newspaper, M/APES 1), after the Civil War (due to current lineup of the Avengers, M/APES 1, and reference to Speedball destroying a city, M/APES 2), after CA5 34 (appearance of human Bucky as new Captain America, M/APES 2)

"I am working with CHIMPS!! Thats okay... I like chimps."

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Sep 20, 2008 4:21 am 
By loki

wolframbane wrote:
>>>
(3:5)-FB Gibbon and Princess Python separate. PP is holding the python that Gibbon gave her after her previous python Pythagoras had gotten sick and died in Punisher War Journal #16 (Pythagoras was at least her second Python, as her first one was dropped into a vat of acid by Iron Man many years ago). This occurs sometime between Punisher War Journal #16 and M/APES 1. Gibbon was nearly hairless in Punisher War Journal #16, apparently due to M-Day, but his hair has since grown back moreso by this flashback.
<<<

The hairlessness was due to the Punisher blowing him up at Stilt-Man's funeral, not M-Day (the Punisher poisoning him probably didn't help either).

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Thread 18

Subject: Wolverine: Saudade

Jun 20, 2007 9:48 am 
Frederic Krier

Wolverine: Saudade

W: Jean-David Morvan A: Philippe Buchet

Appearances: Wolverine/Logan/James Howlett, Professor X/Charles Francis Xavier, Phoenix IV/Jean Grey Summers, Mexer, Kuhrradaizonest, Pedrao, a mermaid, several unidentified students of Xavier's school, various unidentified persons

Synopsis: Pg.1-6,p1: One day. Sunny weather. Three street kids, one of them identified as Mexer are on the run from several armed goons. Meanwhile, Wolverine, who just arrived in Fortaleza, Brazil, is talking on the phone with Professor X, who informs him that he's picked a signal of mutant activity through Cerebro in the same town, and wants Wolverine, who intended to stay there on holiday, to check it. Wolverine interrupts the call as he spots the three street kids trying to steal his bike. Wolverine is however taken out by the mutant Mexer, with a mixture of telekinesis and psychosomatic powers. The three kids take off with the cars, their pursuers arrive to late, but help Wolverine to get up. After they call some help and depart, Wolverine slowly regains his senses and starts looking for the young mutant.
Pg.6, p2- Pg.7: A little while later. Sercipe hills. The miracle healer Kuhrradaizonest gets a shock because Mexer used his mutant powers again.
Pg.8-11: Later. Wolverine finds his motorbike in the nearby slums, but also the goons from previously who beat up the three street kids. He attacks the gangsters, and takes off on his bike with the three kids.
Pg.12-17: Later. Nighttime. Wolverine parties with the kids at the beach, and dances with a local woman, who gives him a necklace with a mermaid symbol, then mysteriously disappears. Taking the bus to Pirambu, Wolverine talks to Mexer about his powers and invites him to join Xavier's school. He spends the night at the kids' hut in Pirambu.
Pg.18-26: The next day. Wolverine wakes up as Xavier calls him on his mobile/X-Phone. Apparently there is another, more powerful mutant nearby. Wolverine however decides to first take a swim. He is then rejoined by the kids, who went out to get some fruit. Just then, they are attacked by the gangsters from the previous day, who manage to take Wolverine out (though they need a lot of bullets to do it), shoot at least one of the kids, and kidnap the unconscious Mexer. They throw what they believe to be Wolverine's corpse into the sea. Wolverine is found underwater by some sort of mermaid, who recognizes the mermaid symbol on Wolverine's necklace, and revives him with a kiss.
Pg.27-28: Later. Kuhrradaizonest heals a young woman, then tells his bodyguard Pedrao to bring him the rotten one.
Pg.29, p1-7: Meanwhile. Wolverine finds himself lying on a beach, naked, but alive.
Pg.29, p8-11  Pg.30, p1-6: Kuhrradaizonest confronts Mexer, who tries to flee, but is stopped by Pedrao. Kuhrradaizonest then proceeds to heal the boy.
Pg.30, p7-11  Pg.31, p1-5: Meanwhile. Wolverine calls Professor X by using a public phone, tells him about what happened, and asks Xavier if he can localize his X-Phone.
Pg.31, p6-10  Pg.34: Later. Wolverine, who apparently bought some clothes in the meantime, is in the luxurious home of one of the gangsters, the one wearing an eye patch, who apparently keeps a collection of mobile phones from all of his victims. Wolverine confronts him, and Eye Patch tells him about what happened to Mexer. Wolverine refrains from killing him, as the gangster's two small kids enter the room. He leaves.
Pg.35-41: Later. Nighttime. Wolverine attacks Kuhrradaizonest's mansion. After a fight, he takes out the healer, who has a powerful healing factor like Wolverine, by stabbing him through the heart. He doesn't withdraw the claws until Kuhrradaizonest is finally dead, despite the fact he told Wolverine about Mexer's fate.
Pg.42-43: One day. Possibly several days later. Rain. Wolverine finds Mexer, now virtually mindless, working in the gold mines of the Sierra Pelada.
Pg.44, p1-2: One day. Several days (or weeks) later. Back at Xavier's. Wolverine tells some of Xavier's students about Mexer, who is busy polishing the Blackbird.
Pg.44, p3: FB to just after Pg.43: Wolverine knocks out a watchman at Sierra Pelada.
Pg.44, p4: FB to a few days prior. Wolverine argues with Prof X about Mexer.
Pg.44, p5-8  Pg. 46: The students leave Wolverine, who takes a walk outside. Autumn leaves. Wolverine meets Jean Grey. He tells her how Mexer reminded him of another kid he used to know in the mid-east fifteen years ago. He talks about his regrets, reminiscing about what could have been (Pg.46, p4-9 depict a what if future with Mexer in an X-Men uniform, fighting Magneto, Sabretooth and Omega Red at Wolverine's side).

Comments: This is the second European exclusive Marvel graphic novel, after Spider-Man in Venice. It originally came out in France in April 2006. This follows the german edition that came out in January 2007. Both GNs, as well as an Italian Daredevil story will be collected in trade as Marvel Europa by Panini UK, the successor of Marvel UK, in July.

This one is not that hard to place in continuity. On pages 44-46, Wolverine and Jean are both depicted in their Morrison-era uniforms. Professor X is depicted sitting in his wheelchair on page 31. So, my best guess is that this takes place just after New X-Men #126, around the same time as The Order #5-6 (Xavier's spine is cured, but he still is insecure, and continues using the wheelchair).

None of the students on pages 44-45 look familiar to me: Two normal-looking Africans or African-Americans (a boy with some sort of round cut hairstyle, a taller girl with dreadlocks), one chubby caucasian with red hair (not sure if it's a boy or a girl), a blonde caucasian girl with the power to fly, a green-skinned guy with tentacle hair and four thumbs, a blue-skinned guy with three eyes, weirdly shaped glasses, and long blue spikes instead of hair. Any idea?

Suggestions for placement:

*KUHRRADAIZONEST

*W:SAUDADE

*MEXER

*W:SAUDADE

PHOENIX IV/JEAN GREY SUMMERS 
...
X 126
XX 9
*W:SAUDADE
ORDER 5
UX 407 

PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER 
...
X 126
*W:SAUDADE
ORDER 5
ORDER 6
BHOOD 8 

WOLVERINE/"LOGAN"/JAMES HOWLETT 
...
X 126
* W:SAUDADE
ORDER 5
ORDER 6
BP3 41

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Jun 20, 2007 4:44 pm 
By Somebody
Director

Frederic Krier wrote:
This one is not that hard to place in continuity. On pages 44-46, Wolverine and Jean are both depicted in their Morrison-era uniforms. Professor X is depicted sitting in his wheelchair on page 31. So, my best guess is that this takes place just after New X-Men #126, around the same time as The Order #5-6 (Xavier's spine is cured, but he still is insecure, and continues using the wheelchair).
Wouldn't it be easier to place it before Xavier's spine is "healed" (perhaps while it's CassaNova in Xavier's body)?
Somebody 
Director
 
  
Posts: 1854
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:48 pm
Location: Scotland 
Website 

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Jun 20, 2007 5:50 pm 
By Dhall

Frederic, 
Do you know of any good source for a listing of original Panini content? Or any good sources for obtaining such books? I am particularly interested in a four issue limited series named Wild Angels they did which had some Marvel UK content, that had not been previously published. 

Thanks! Dave

			*	*	*

Jun 20, 2007 6:07 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I'd rather go with the intent that it IS Prof. X -- which means that, if the school is up and running and Jean's alive, it'd have to be after X #126 and before X #146. And since we already had to invent a period of time where a healed Xavier uses his wheelchair, we might as well make use of it to place this story there. 

-Jeph!

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Jun 20, 2007 7:27 pm 
By Jason Doty

Where did this comic come from? Are there any other series with X-Men appearances? I'm a completest and this snuck by me.

			*	*	*

Jun 20, 2007 10:30 pm 
By jephyork
Director

It was published in France. Wait for the English translation, coming (to the UK, anyway) from Panini this summer. 

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Jun 21, 2007 3:57 am 
By Frederic Krier

jephyork wrote:
>>>
I'd rather go with the intent that it IS Prof. X -- which means that, if the school is up and running and Jean's alive, it'd have to be after X #126 and before X #146. And since we already had to invent a period of time where a healed Xavier uses his wheelchair, we might as well make use of it to place this story there.
<<<

That's exactly how I figured out where it fits best. 

Some info on the Panini graphic novels:http://www.paninionline.com/collectibles/institutional/bt/uk/news.asp?idNews=228 
So more X-Men stuff has been announced, but not published yet. 
Former European exclusive projects include the Spider-Man in Venice GN that will also be reprinted in the "Marvel Europa" trade; Wild Angels, which was published as "Marvel Top 6" in Italy in 1996, and was originally supposed to be a mini-series from Marvel UK (no, I don't have that one, maybe it can be found through the Italian version of EBay). 
Jean-Yves Mitton also did two Silver Surfer stories in France that continue fromSilver Surfer vol. I #18, that came out in "Nova", issues 25 and 26 in 1968. Those are presumably not canon ( I haven't read those either).

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Sep 13, 2008 7:56 pm 
By jephyork
Director

>>>
Wolverine: Saudade is a reprint, and has already been analyzed.
<<<

Poorly. As I understand it, both from interviews and from the Much Better American Translation that came out recently, the bulk of the book occurs years ago -- only the end part occurs in the Morrison run. As you can see, the "kid" that Wolvie tried (and failed) to rescue is now an adult.

-Jeph!

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Sep 15, 2008 2:07 pm 
By Frederic Krier

It doesn't appear that obvious to me from the german translation; presumably the stubble on the kid's chin is meant to tell us that several years have passed? Hmm, perhaps I thought that some stubble wasn't too unusual for a teenager. Maybe they should have drawn him with a fully grown beard.
Anyway, since it looks like I've misread the thing, it would be preferable to have a new analysis of the US version (which I didn't pick up).

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Sep 16, 2008 12:44 am 
By jephyork
Director

I'm having trouble locating my Much Better American Translation, but the UK (Panini) edition has Wolverine say, on the last page, that he learned the meaning of "Saudade" during his adventure in Brazil, *fifteen years ago*.

Plus, yes, the kid goes from teenager to adult. It's not just more stubble -- his entire face is drawn differently. Wider chin, etc.

-Jeph!

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Sep 16, 2008 7:09 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

"Fifteen years," eh? So we're supposed to believe that Logan's been an X-Man for at least fifteen years at this point? That's too long, even on my calendar, nevermind Marvel's ever-compressing timeline.  

Anyway, I'm removing most of SAUDADE from the current calendar. Thanks for the added info!

Paul B.

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Sep 16, 2008 1:12 pm 
By jephyork
Director

I think you're supposed to believe that the Brazilian creative team, unaffiliated with Marvel, has no idea about "Marvel time". Just relax and let the reference wash over you like a cool summer rain...

-Jeph!

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Sep 17, 2008 6:43 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Breathing deeply... Thanks, Jeph.

Anyone care to place SAUDADE in Logan's chronology? Perhaps sometime aroumd the books that were published fifteen years before SAUDADE was?

Paul B.

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Sep 17, 2008 1:18 pm 
By jephyork
Director

Prof. X is around -- and he's in a regular wheelchair, not his hoverchair. It's one with funky doodads and hand controls, though, and they're using fun tech like "X-phones". I'd place this somewhere between Uncanny #280 and X-Men #1.

-Jeph!

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Sep 18, 2008 7:18 am 
By Paul Bourcier
Director

Thanks, Jeph.

Paul B.

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Sep 18, 2008 9:59 am 
By Somebody
Director

I glanced at the US version today. It does not mention any specific time period on the last page, less still "fifteen years".

			*	*	*

Sep 18, 2008 8:58 pm 
By jephyork
Director

See, and it's stuff like THIS that makes me wonder how much of the dialogue is literally translated, and how much is just added in. Was the "fifteen years" line omitted from the original by the US translation, or added by Panini?

What language was the original published in? Anyone have a copy?

-Jeph!

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Sep 18, 2008 9:23 pm 
By Somebody
Director

It was originally published in France (both the original writer and artist are French). Here's how the writer described it:

http://bit.ly/1SWMHu wrote:
>>>
For those who missed out on Wolverine: Saudade when it came out in France, can you provide a summary of what it's about?

JDM: It starts in the early 90s when our hero went to Brazil for a vacation. He discovers that there are also mutants over there, including a very malicious one who absorbs the powers of others. Logan wants to send the young man to Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters. Will he be able to do so? Go read it when it comes out in September.

Moving on, what do you have in mind for the Spider-Man project? What kind of stories can we look forward to eventually?

JDM: It will be an emotional story with loads of action. Think of it as a story from the good old Jim Lee and Chris Claremont days... 
<<<

(I leave that second answer in since Jim Lee's never done Spider-Man, and so I presume something went wrong there - either the interviewer farked up (given the site's recent history, quite plausible) - or it didn't translate and the writer went on talking about Saudade anyway).

For the record, the US edition credits both a translator (Alexandra Hain-Cole) and an adaptor (Larry Hama), which suggests that the rescripting need not necessarily be literal.

[And would anyone have a problem with me splitting this tangent out to its' own thread in MU at this point?]

			*	*	*

Sep 19, 2008 1:18 am 
By jephyork
Director

Go nuts.

Early 90s, eh? Cool, that fits with my suggestion for placement earlier in the thread.

-Jeph!

			*	*	*

Sep 20, 2008 4:20 pm 
By Giant Ant

I have the original Wolverine:Saudade comic in French, and I can confirm that the "15 years ago" line is in it, on the last page.
Hope that helps.

			*	*	*

Thread 19

Subject: Spider-Man: With Great Power... 1-5

Sep 15, 2008 12:59 am 
By newtron

This is my first analysis (I think), so please be gentle. I'm happy to answer any questions you might have.

SPIDER-MAN: WITH GREAT POWER... #1
March 2008
No Title
1 page of reprint material (not counted below) + 22 pages

Characters:
Parkers - Peter Parker (Spider-Man), Uncle Ben, Aunt May
Wrestlers - Crusher Hogan, the Bronx Mangler, the En Fuego Triplets, various unnamed (including possibly the Rumble Sisters)
Wrestling staff - Monty Caabash, various unnamed (including possibly Maxie Shiffman)
Reporters - Gino, various unnamed
Students: Flash Thompson, Liz Allan, various unnamed students
Other: unnamed science exhibit lecturer, unnamed wrestling fans

SMWGP 1 (1). Spider-Man is fighting Crusher Hogan in the ring. Spidey is fully outfitted in his standard red-and-blues.

SMWGP 1 (2-4). Presumably immediately after the fight. Spidey chit chats with fans and reporters before heading into the locker room. Once inside, three men briefly talk to him about his upcoming TV appearance. None of these three appear elsewhere in the comic, so it's unclear who exactly they are and how they fit into the business. One of them has a moustache and wears a hat and could be Maxie Shiffman. Spidey basically ignores these three guys, though, and ends up in conversation with wrestling league owner Monty Caabash. Crusher Hogan, the En Fuego Triplets, the Bronx Mangler and other unnamed wrestlers (including possibly the Rumble Sisters) get chewed out by Monty, before Monty congratulates Spidey and tries to get him to wear a promotional hat on the previously mentioned TV spot. Spidey tells Monty to be nicer to the other wrestlers, but then shoots them down himself when they ask him to hang out.

SMWGP 1 (5). Spidey swings around the city, disrupting some pigeons.

SMWGP 1 (6-7:2). Flashback to before Pete had powers. Flash Thompson gives Pete a wedgie and otherwise humiliates him in the school hallway. Liz is there.

SMWGP 1 (7:3-8). Flashback, probably the evening following that wedgie. Aunt May and Uncle Ben console Pete, and Ben gives Pete an old clunker of a car.

SMWGP 1 (9). Flashback. The science exhibit at which a radioactive spider bites Pete. Contains some new dialogue.

SMWGP 1 (10-11:3). Flashback. Pete uses his new-found powers to run circles around Flash Thompson. New material I believe.

SMWGP 1 (11:4-12). Flashback. The fight with Crusher Hogan. Contains some new material.

SMWGP 1 (13). Flashback. After the fight, Pete collects his money from Monty Caabash and Monty approaches him about a TV deal. This is the most problematic page in the issue, IMO.

SMWGP 1 (14-16). Flashback. Some time after the fight, long enough for Pete to buy a new car. It's night, and Pete drives to Liz Allan's house and parks
outside. Flash Thompson shows up. Liz has words with Flash, Flash has words with Pete, and a plan is made for Pete and Flash to drag-race.

SMWGP 1 (17-20:2). Flashback. Pete and Flash race, Pete wins/drives Flash off the road.

SMWGP 1 (20:3-21:2). Flashback. Presumably immediately after he beats Flash, Pete has to swerve to avoid a raccoon. He hits a guard rail with the car.

SMWGP 1 (21:3-22). Flashback. Pete arrives at home with the banged up car, briefly talks to Uncle Ben, and heads to his room. We learn that Pete
was injured in the accident and had to go to the hospital and get stitches.



SPIDER-MAN: WITH GREAT POWER... #2
April 2008
A Star is Born! (Title given in previous issue)
1 page of reprint material (not counted below) + 23 pages

Characters:
Parkers - Peter Parker (Spider-Man), Aunt May, Uncle Ben
Wrestlers - Crusher Hogan, Bronx Wrangler, Frank "Chopper" Palone, various unnamed (including possibly one Rumble Sister)
Wrestling staff - Monty Caabash, Wendle (manager), Tiffany Lebeck
Students: Liz Allan, Flash Thompson, various unnamed
Mob thugs: (Mr.) Angel, Marco, various unnamed
Other: unnamed wrestling fans

SMWGP 2 (1-3:1). Spider-Man is training with Crusher Hogan. Spidey is just wearing some crummy clothes. His mask is loose-fitting and has open eye- and mouth-holes. A manager named Wendle has been watching the training.

SMWGP 2 (3:2-7:3). Spidey and Wendle meet up with Monty Caabash and discuss Spidey's rules for fighting. These include never showing his face, keeping his identity secret, always being paid in cash, and going by the name Spider-Man. Spidey is then introduced to Tiffany Lebeck, who works for Caabash and is supposed to help Spidey with his costume. She suggests "full body coverage".

SMWGP 2 (7:4-8). Pete sneaks into his house after Tiffany offers to let him stay with her. OP he turns her down. Pete makes noise coming in and wakes May and Ben.

SMWGP 2 (9). At school, Pete is exhausted and sleeps through a chemistry test. Liz confronts him about it and notices that Pete is bleeding. Pete passes out.

SMWGP 2 (10-11:1). Pete awakes at a hospital. Aunt May and Uncle Ben confront him about his erratic behaviour.

SMWGP 2 (11:2-12). Spidey arrives for a match and meets up with Tiffany and Wendle. They chat. Spidey's now wearing a full-body red-and-blue suit, but his mask still has open eye-holes.

SMWGP 2 (13:1). Spidey fights/beats Frank "Chopper" Palone

SMWGP 2 (13:2-15:4). Some mobsters, including a Mr. Angel, confront Monty about money they've invested in his league. They want Spidey on TV to boost chances of success.
Note: I'm not sure how to number this. 14/15 is a two-pager, with four panels set over a large splash. The splash is a montage of Spidey winning fights and of newspaper headlines similar to AAF15.

SMWGP 2 (15:5-16). Spidey and Tiffany on top of a skyscraper talking about Spidey's TV appearance the next day.

SMWGP 2 (17). Spidey swinging home.

SMWGP 2 (18). "40 minutes later", Spidey creates/finishes his web formula and shooters.

SMWGP 2 (19-22:1). At the televised Madison Square Gardens event, Spidey is just barely on time for his fight with the Bronx Wrangler. Monty and Wendle are worried. Spidey finally shows up, wearing his normal red-and-blue costume, with covered eyes. He and the Wrangler fight, and Spidey webs him up.

SMWGP 2 (22:2-23:2). Pete comes home and reconciles with May and Ben.

SMWGP 2 (23:3-23:4). At school, Pete and Liz Allan chat while Flash looks on.



SPIDER-MAN: WITH GREAT POWER... #3
May 2008
The Big, Wide World! (Title given in previous issue)
1 page of reprint material (not counted below) + 22 pages

Characters:
Parkers - Peter Parker (Spider-Man), Uncle Ben, Aunt May
Wrestling staff - Tiffany Lebeck, various unnamed
Bugle staff - J. Jonah Jameson, Benny, various unnamed
Fantastic Four - Reed Richards (Mr. Fantastic), Johnny Storm (Human Torch)
Students - Liz Allan, Flash Thompson, various unnamed
Other - the Burglar, unnamed wrestlers, a "floozy" whose name might start with "R" or "G", an unnamed mobster, Jack (TV host), someone named Margie, unnamed club-goers, giant monster, Giganto

SMWGP 3 (1-3). At a Bugle meeting, JJJ gets angry about Spider-Man and assigns a reporter named Benny to get dirt on Spidey. An unnamed employee mentions that The Fantastic Four "just saved the city from the Mole Man".

SMWGP 3 (4-5). Dusk. Spidey and a girl whose name he can't remember sit on a rooftop and eat chinese food while they watch the FF battle a huge monster (from FF 1? I'm not an FF guy). Spidey and the girl make out.

SMWGP 3 (6-7). Night. Spidey arrives at Tiffany's apartment, late, and she calls him out for being with the floozy. They "need to be at the TV studio in less than an hour." Spidey mentions that that afternoon Monty wanted him to wear a hat, but Spidey put him in his place (referring to the beginning of issue 1). Tiffany invites Spidey to a party at a club called Mayhem, after the taping.

SMWGP 3 (8-9). Spidey appears on a talk show hosted by a guy named Jack. Meanwhile, the Burglar is snooping about and robs one of the mobsters and some other people of $20k.

SMWGP 3 (10:1). Spidey poses for photographers, chats with reporters after the show.

SMWGP 3 (10:2-11:2). Spidey does not stop the Burglar from getting away with the cash. No new info here, I think, except maybe one or two lines of dialogue.

SMWGP 3 (11:3-13:2). Spidey, Tiffany and Monty at Mayhem. Monty and Tiffany have some words, Spidey names Tiffany as his official manager and agent.

SMWGP 3 (13:3-15:2). Day. Aunt May and Uncle Ben receive a letter from Pete's school saying that he's been a bad student lately.

SMWGP 3 (15:3-17:3). At school, Pete makes plans with Liz to study after school. Flash tries to pressure Pete out of ever talking to Liz again.

SMWGP 3 (17:4). At the library after school, Pete meets Liz and convinces her to leave and go to...

SMWGP 3 (18:1 - 18:2). Mayhem (the club), Pete and Liz party it up.

SMWGP 3 (18:3-19:3). The Bugle. JJJ and Benny discuss an angle for their Spider-Man story.

SMWGP 3 (19:4-22). At 6:18 AM, Pete and Liz are leaving Mayhem. They run into Uncle Ben, who followed Pete after school. Ben is about to scold the hell out of Pete, when Giganto (I think) attacks.



SPIDER-MAN: WITH GREAT POWER... #4
August 2008
Smoke and Mirrors! (Title given in previous issue)
1 page of reprint material (not counted below) + 22 pages

Characters:
Parkers - Peter Parker (Spider-Man), Uncle Ben
Bugle staff - J. Jonah Jameson
Fantastic Four - Reed Richards (Mr. Fantastic), Johnny Storm (Human Torch), Susan Storm (Invisible Girl), Ben Grimm (The Thing)
Students - Liz Allan, various unnamed
Mob thugs: (Mr.) Angel, Marco, various unnamed
Other - Tiffany Lebeck, Giganto, unnamed homeless man, unnamed club-goers, unnamed bystanders

SMWGP 4 (1-13). Giganto's attack. Pete, Ben and Liz try to escape while the FF try to drive the monster out of town. Pete and the Thing try to save an unnamed homeless man, but he ends up dying.

SMWGP 4 (14-15:4). In the car after the attack, Pete and Ben talk. Pete is upset that the homeless man died. Ben tells him that with great power comes great responsibility.

SMWGP 4 (15:5-16:1). At school, Pete feels all alone.

SMWGP 4 (16:2). Pete (at home?) feeling sorry for himself.

SMWGP 4 (16:3-17:2). Spidey at Mayhem, dancing with Tiffany and preparing to get drunk.

SMWGP 4 (17:3-20). Spidey at Tiffany's, drunk and sick. Spidey passes out and Tiffany looks under his mask. There are knocks at the door.

SMWGP 4 (21-22). Spidey awakens to find Angel and some mobsters at Tiffany's. JJJ is on TV blasting Spider-Man for being a coward. Angel demands that Spidey become a hero, to try and win over the public and boost his investment.



SPIDER-MAN: WITH GREAT POWER... #5
September 2008
With Great Power... (Title given in previous issue)
1 page of reprint material (not counted below) + 22 pages

Characters:
Parkers - Peter Parker (Spider-Man), Uncle Ben, Aunt May
Wrestling staff - Tiffany Lebeck, Wendle, Monty Caabash
Bugle staff - J. Jonah Jameson, unnamed employee
Mob thugs: (Mr.) Angel, Marco
Other - unnamed bank robbers, bystanders and cops; Morgenstern (suicidal jumper)

SMWGP 5 (1-3). Spider-Man trying, unsuccessfully, to stop a jumper from jumping. Spidey ends up saving him with webbing.

SMWGP 5 (4-5:1). Spidey at Tiffany's, freaking out and not able to cope with his new role as hero. Tiffany tells him about an upcoming bank robbery that Angel has orchestrated and that Spidey is to stop.

SMWGP 5 (5:2-8). After the bank robbery, Spidey stops the crooks from getting away. In the process, the getaway van almost slams into a group of bystanders. Spidey just barely saves them.

SMWGP 5 (9-10:3). Angel, Monty, Tiffany, Wendle, Marco discuss JJJ's ongoing crusade against Spidey and decide that Jameson needs to be silenced. Angel beats up on Tiffany.

SMWGP 5 (10:4-12). Night. Spidey arrives at Tiffany's. She is drunk, and tells him about the plan to kill Jameson that very night. Spidey takes his mask off, but Tiffany acknowledges she's far too drunk to even remember the meeting in the morning.

SMWGP 5 (13). Night. Spidey swinging around, presumably to the Bugle.

SMWGP 5 (14-18:3). Night. Angel and Marco show up at the Bugle to silence JJJ. Spidey shows up in the nick of time and stops them. Jameson passes out in the scuffle.

SMWGP 5 (18:4-19:1). Day. While Jameson was passed out, Spidey rewrote his column into a pro-Spidey article. Reading it the next day, Jameson is pissed.

SMWGP 5 (19:2). Day. Spidey swings around NYC while people read the article.

SMWGP 5 (19:3). Dusk. Spidey finds that Tiffany's apartment is empty and that she has skipped town.

SMWGP 5 (20-22). Night. Pete arrives home to find cop cars in a scene reminiscent of the Uncle Ben death revelation. It turns out the cops are there, though, because Pete hasn't been home in a week and Ben and May are worried. As they hug and reunite, a TV in the background announces that the Burglar is on the loose, armed and dangerous.



Notes:
- There are a number of things that have been revamped, including character designs, costumes, and some dialogue. I don't really consider this problematic, and I've ignored it.
- The biggest problem by far is how Caabash fits in with Maxie Shiffman (and wrestling boss Bobby from TW 14). Here's how I see it (and note that I haven't read any of the more modern stories featuring Maxie):
Maxie and Monty Caabash are clearly supposed to be different characters. Maxie introduces himself in AAF 15 as a TV producer. Caabash owns the wrestling league. They probably work hand-in-hand for awhile, with Caabash focusing more on the wrestling stuff and Maxie focusing more on the TV stuff. They have some similar dialogue in at least one case, but I don't see that as a problem. As for Bobby from TW 14, I would consider him more in the business of managing wrestlers, not the league as a whole. His character is much closer to Caabash's, but I think there's enough room for them to be separate entities. Thoughts?
- I noticed that some issues are listed as KEY #-FB (ww:xx - yy:zz) and others as KEY # (ww:xx - yy:zz)-FB. I'm not sure which is correct.
- I didn't bother with FF placement suggestions, because I just don't know enough about their chronologies and don't have access to the relevant materials.



Placement suggestions:

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
...
{AAF 15 (1 - 2:3)}
SMWGP 1 (6 - 8)-FB
PPTSS 60/2 (2:6)
AAF 15 (2:4 - 2:5)
PPTSS 60/2 (3:5 - 3:10)
AAF 15 (2:8)
PPTSS 60/2 (4:1 - 4:2)
AAF 15 (3:1)
ASM 94 (2:4)-FB
SMWGP 1 (9:1 - 9:3)-FB

Note, this gives the following lecture:
Good afternoon and welcome to the General Techtronics 'experiment in radioactivity!' I'm sure you're all concerned about the growing levels of radiation in our society! Well, we at G.T.L. share your concern. And that's why we're working to safely control radiation. And now, I'll demonstrate just how safe our equipment is! (PPTSS 60/2)
And now for a demonstration of how we can control radioactive rays here in the laboratory... (AAF 15)
Now, if you'll all give me your close attention-- (ASM 94)
With a steady stream of electrons we can control the rate of decay of the radioactive material...In this manner we will one day be able to render nuclear material safe. We may run our households, even our cars... (SMWGP 1)

AAF 15 (3:2 - 3:5)
PPTSS 60/2 (4:6 - 4:7)
AAF 15 (3:6)
ASM 94 (3:1 - 3:3)-FB
SM:PL (6:2 - 6:3)
AAF 15 (3:7 - 4:1)
PPTSS 60/2 (6:1)
AAF 15 (4:2 - 4:5)
M/CP 120/4-FB
AAF 15 (4:6)
PPTSS 60/2 (6:7 - 7:1)
AAF 15 (4:7 - 5:1)
TW 14
AAF 15 (5:2 - 5:4)
SMWGP 1 (12:2 - 12:4)-FB
AAF 15 (5:5 - 5:7)
SMWGP 1 (13)-FB
AAF 15 (6:1)
PPTSS 60/2 (8:4 - 8:5) - switched spots with ASM 94 (3:6). I think there was an error before.
ASM 94 (3:6)-FB
SMWGP 1-FB (10 - 11:3)
SMWGP 1-FB (14 - 22)
SMWGP 2 (1 - 17)
PPTSS 60/2 (8:6 - 9:1)
AAF 15 (6:2 - 6:3)
SMWGP 2 (18:3 - 18:4)
PPTSS 60/2 (9:2)
AAF 15 (6:4)
ASM 94 (3:8)-FB
PPTSS 60/2 (9:3 - 9:8)
AAF 15 (6:5 - 6:8)
SMWGP 2 (19 - 23:2)
ASM 94 (4:2 - 4:3)-FB
SMWGP 2 (23:3 - 23:4)
SMWGP 1 (1 - 5)
SMWGP 3 (1 - 7)
PPTSS 60/2 (10:1 - 10:2)-BTS
SMWGP 3 (8 - 9)
AAF 15 (7:1 - 7:4)
PPTSS 60/2 (10:4 - 10:5) - switched with WOSM 90-FB (3:6 - 3:7). I think there was an error before.
WOSM 90-FB (3:6 - 3:7)
AAF 15 (8:1) ~ SMWGP 3 (10:1) - includes new material
AAF 15 (8:2)
ASM2 38-FB
SMWGP 3 (10:4)
AAF 15 (8:3) - BTS - added BTS
PPTSS 60/2 (11:3) - BTS - added BTS
AAF 15 (8:4 - 8:6)
WOSM 90-FB (4:1 - 4: 3)
SMWGP 3 (11:3 - 22)
SMWGP 4
SMWGP 5
AAF 15 (8:7 - 8:8)
...



CAABASH, MONTY
SMWGP 1-FB
SMWGP 1
SMWGP 2
SMWGP 5



HOGAN, JOEY "CRUSHER"
...
TW 14 (21:6 - 22:1)
AAF 15 (5:2 - 5:4)
SMWGP 1 (12:2 - 12:4)-FB
AAF 15 (5:5 - 5:6)
ASM 271



JAMESON, J. JONAH
...
UTSM 12-FB
SMWGP 3
SMWGP 4
SMWGP 5
AAF 18
...



LEBECK, TIFFANY
SMWGP 2
SMWGP 3
SMWGP 4
SMWGP 5



OSBORN, LIZ ALLAN
...
AAF 17-FB
{AAF 15 (1)}
SMWGP 1 (7)-FB
AAF 15 (2)
SMWGP 1 (14 - 16)-FB
SM:PL
SMWGP 2
SMWGP 3
SMWGP 4
AAF 16
...



PARKER, BEN
...
ASM@ 1-FB
SMWGP 1 (7 - 8)-FB
{AAF 15 (2)}
SMWGP 1-FB (22)
SMWGP 2 (8)
SMWGP 2 (10 - 11:1)
AAF 15 (6)
SMWGP 2 (22:2 - 23:2)
SMWGP 3
SMWGP 4
SMWGP 5
AAF 15 (8)
PPSM2 33-FB
...



PARKER, MAY REILLY
...
ASM 370/2-FB
SMWGP 1-FB
{AAF 15 (2)}
SMWGP 2 (8)
SMWGP 2 (10 - 11:1)
AAF 15 (6)
SMWGP 2 (22:2 - 23:2)
SMWGP 3
SMWGP 5
AAF 15 (8)
PPTSS 60/2
...



SHIFFMAN, MAXIE
AAF 15 (6-7)
WOSM 90-FB
SMWGP 1
AAF 15 (8)-BTS ~ WOSM 90-FB - added page #
AAF 16
...


THOMPSON, EUGENE "FLASH"
...
AAF 17-FB
{AAF 15 (1)}
SMWGP 1 (6)-FB
AAF 15 (2)
SM:PL
SMWGP 1 (10 - 11)-FB
SMWGP 1 (14 - 20)-FB
SMWGP 2
SMWGP 3
AAF 16
...

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Sep 18, 2008 10:30 am 
By dimadick

You mention a wrestler called the Bronx Mangler. There are three wrestling-related character by the codename "the Mangler". Wonder if this could be one of them in their younger days.

*The first is a Daredevil foe depicted in "Daredevil" vol. 1 #22-23 (November - December, 1966), a "down-and-out wrestler who couldn't get any more matches", reportedly because the other wrestlers were afraid of him. He was depicted with light pigmentation ("white") and short brown hair.
*The second was Mangler/Daniels, a Power Man foe depicted in "Power Man" 34-35 (August-September, 1976). He was a "professional wrestler" seeking revenge on Noah Burstein. One of his brothers had been subjected to the experiments of Noah and ended up dying in agony. He was depicted with darker skin ("black") and a bald head.
*The third was never given a name in the issues, called Lucius O'Neil in the profiles. He first appeared in "Thing" vol. 1 #36 (June, 1986), as one of the members and associates of the Unlimited Class wrestling Federation attacking the Thing. He and Poundcakes managed to defeat the Fantastic Four member with a combined attack. He went on to appear as a mercenary in "Captain America" vol. 1 #328 (April, 1987), #363-364 (November-December, 1989) and #395 (December, 1991). In the latter he was killed by Cutthroat/Daniel Leighton. He was depicted with light skin and either a bald head or with short blond hair. 

Does the Bronx fellow meet any of their descriptions?

			*	*	*

Sep 18, 2008 12:11 pm 
By dimadick

That this mini-series does not even mention Maxie Shiffman is quite a problem. Since you aren't familiar with his side of the origin story, the following is a brief summary of his depictions. 

In "Amazing Fantasy" vol. 1 #15 (August, 1962), Maxie is a "booking agent" who happened to be present among the audience of Spider-Man's initial fight with Crusher Hogan. He grasps the opportunity present in contacting the victor and explaining that "Your act could be worth a fortune! Whatever you do, keep the mask --- it's great showmanship!" He arranges for the first appearance of Spider-Man in television. After the show Spidey allows the Burglar to escape. 

In a flashback in "Web of Spider-Man" #90 (July, 1992), Maxie and Spidey appear sharing a limousine ride following the show. They take the time to discuss business.

The storyline of Amazing Fantasy #15 continues with further public appearances by Spider-Man. His fame is growing and demand for further appearances increases. Maxie keeps arranging said appearances.

The flashbacks in Web of Spider-Man #90 continue. The night Ben Parker was murdered, Maxie happened to be located close to the warehouse where Spider-Man apprehended the Burglar. Maxie witnessed his client swinging away from the warehouse. he considered reporting what he saw to the Daily Bugle.

The storyline continues with "Amazing Fantasy" vol. 1 #16-18 (December, 1995 - March, 1996), a 1990s continuation of the original story. In #16, Maxie has lost contact with his client. Appearances of Spider-Man having ceased, profits are drying up. Maxie starts having trouble with paying his bills and his gambling debts. Already bookies are threatening to break his thumbs. he tries to contact his client through newspaper ads. Only imposters answer his call. Maxie follows a police report concerning a re-appearance of his client. He arrives seconds too late and his voice never reaches Spidey.

In #17, Maxie finally manages to approach his client. He offers to get him appearances in every venue his client could wish and at any paying rate he could wish. Spidey declines, giving a vague answer about living up to his responsibilities. Back at the office Grace, Maxie's secretary, resigns. Her reasons include not having been payed for "weeks" and being tired of hiding her employer from mob leg-breakers seeking payment. Maxie's gambling debts are getting out of hand. He manages however to secure another client in the person of Supercharger.

In #18, Spidey faces financial difficulties. He returns to Maxie in hopes of more appearances and new paychecks. Maxie arranges for both of his clients to appear in the television show "It's Amazing". Their inclusion is favored over an interview with an astronaut, John Jameson, and a protective father, J. Jonah Jameson, takes this as a personal insult. (Adding fuel to his campaign against Spidey). While the show is being recorded, Supercharger reveals himself as an activist. He is campaigning to convince the public that all superhumans are inherently dangerous. His method could use improvement, it includes identifying himself as a superhuman and then attacking the studio audience. Spidey fights against him and defeats him, their battle wrecking the show's set. The show is cancelled and recorded footage never televised. Spidey convinces Maxie to return their advance payment, being unable to offer the services they had agreed on. 

The storyline continues in "Amazing Spider-Man" #1 (March, 1963) and flashbacks in Web of Spider-Man #90. Jonah has been campaigning against Spidey through his newspaper publications. Maxie tries and fails to convince Jonah to quit his campaign. Meanwhile Spidey discovers he can't cash his paychecks without revealing his identity to the bank. He confronts Maxie only to learn that Jameson managed to wreck his reputation and career. Making Spidey unemployable in show business. 

Flashbacks in Web of Spider-Man #90 continue. For a while Maxie thought his career could end with that of Spider-Man. However his successful promotion of Spidey had earned him a reputation, allowing him to transfer his activities to the West Coast of the United States. He managed to become a successful producer and gained a wife, Trudy. However his wife eventually died of cancer and Maxie fell into despair. In the present portion of the issue, Mysterio recruits Maxie in a plot against Spider-Man. He had somehow convinced Maxie that he could bring his wife back, feeding him with illusions of her. Spidey defeats Mysterio and Maxie returns to his depression. No more appearances that I know of.

			*	*	*

Sep 18, 2008 1:56 pm 
By newtron

thanks for the response dimadick!

about the mangler - in this story he is white and heavily tattooed in his shoulder/neck/head area with "tribal"-style tattoos. he has a shaved head. sounds like it could be the third mangler you mentiond, but as i said, some of the characters in this book got redesigns, so i'm not sure if it's enough to go on.

about shiffman - i agree that it's problematic, but i don't think it's a deal-breaker. when i said i hadn't read the modern stories, i mean any that were set after asm 1. when writing this review and doing placements, i did read the aaf 15 and the wosm 90 flashbacks that were set during aaf 15 (but not the later flashbacks or present-day stuff). i have previously read aaf 16-18, but i didn't check them for this particular analysis. none of the stuff in this series contradicts anything in those stories, as far as i can tell. it is certainly weird that he's not mentioned explicitly, but i think it works out. as i mentioned, there is a character that could be him. the way i'm choosing to understand it is that maxie, as an agent/promoter/producer, is working with the wrestling people to promote spidey. when the wrestling stuff stops, maxie is still around to work with peter on tv appearances, etc. this story just happens to focus on the wrestling side of things, so maxie isn't featured.

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Sep 18, 2008 2:15 pm 
By dimadick

newtron wrote:
>>>
At a Bugle meeting, JJJ gets angry about Spider-Man and assigns a reporter named Benny to get dirt on Spidey. An unnamed employee mentions that The Fantastic Four "just saved the city from the Mole Man".
<<<

Spider-fan.org suggests that "Benny" could be an early appearance by Ben Urich. 

The Mole Man threatening New York City? The Fantastic Four already known to its public. I wonder where that could fit.

In "Fantastic Four" vol. 1 #1, the Fantastic Four have taken residence in Central City, maintaining secret identities. Harvey resides in Monster Isle. He uses various monsters to attack targets behind the Iron Curtain, in Australia, South America, French Africa. The Four then locate him and manage to bury him deep under the isle. New York City is not targeted, nor any other city in North America. 

They do not meet Harvey again until #22 (January, 1964). The Four have moved to New York City but attract too much attention by the public for their own. Their activities are interrupted by endless complains. Reed decides to move his experiments to "a small deserted island off the coast of New Jersey". Only to find that the owner is the Mole Man and the Subterraneans are with him. Harvey was the omne who offered to sell the island to Reed in order to lure them into a trap. Harvey and his people have been "constructing huge hydraulic platforms under the largest cities on Earth! At a signal from me, these platforms will suddenly transport any or all of those cities down to the Earths core!" He expects the paranoid, remaining surfacemen to destroy each other through nuclear war. New York City can be persumed included with his otjher targets. The Four manage to escape and Reed reconfigured Harvey's equipment, resulting in the island sinking into the Atlantic Ocean. This is the first time the Four save a city from Harvey.

Harvey returns in #31 (October, 1964), where he directly threatens New York City. Starting by causing earthquakes, the Baxter Building being among those suffering damages. "Crowds are milling around in bewilderment" and "an entire city block" goes missing. Earthquakes continue and further blocks go missing. Thousands of New Yorkers become prisoners of the Mole Man, including the Invisible Girl who was the only one specifically targeted. Harvey blackmails her teammates in order to get them to act as his security force versus other-would-be-opponents. The first to arrive are the Avengers (Captain America,Giant-Man, Iron Man, Thor and Wasp). The Fantastic Three fight them and manage to explain they have a hostage situation going on. The Avengers retreat and their leader, Thor, grants the Three a deadline of 24 hours to resolve the situation. "After that, the Avengers will step in." The Three betray the Mole Man and perform a surprise attack which forces him to retreat and the missing blocks rise to the surface. They regain Susan but she suffers a severe head wound and her chances to survive are reportedly slim.

Harvey stays clear of the Four for a while, transferring his attentios to the Avengers, in "Avengers" vol. 1 #12, #16-17. Fantastic Four #31 is the earlier issue which fits the description given in "Great Power". Unfortunately it occurs two years too late to fit with Amazing Fantasy #15. 


newtron wrote:
>>>
SMWGP 3 (19:4-22). At 6:18 AM, Pete and Liz are leaving Mayhem. They run into Uncle Ben, who followed Pete after school. Ben is about to scold the hell out of Pete, when Giganto (I think) attacks.
<<<

Giganto the Mole Man servant or the living weapon of the Atlanteans? Same name, different appearance. In the first case, an early Giganto attack on New York City was depicted in "Fantastic Four: First Family" #3 (July, 2006), the monster having trailed the Four to the city and the residents affected by the battle. In the second case it could be connected to Namor's attack on "Fantastic Four" vol. 1 #4 (May, 1962)

			*	*	*

Sep 18, 2008 2:42 pm 
By dimadick

newtron wrote:
>>>
- The biggest problem by far is how Caabash fits in with Maxie Shiffman (and wrestling boss Bobby from TW 14). Here's how I see it (and note that I haven't read any of the more modern stories featuring Maxie):
Maxie and Monty Caabash are clearly supposed to be different characters. Maxie introduces himself in AAF 15 as a TV producer. Caabash owns the wrestling league. They probably work hand-in-hand for awhile, with Caabash focusing more on the wrestling stuff and Maxie focusing more on the TV stuff. They have some similar dialogue in at least one case, but I don't see that as a problem. As for Bobby from TW 14, I would consider him more in the business of managing wrestlers, not the league as a whole. His character is much closer to Caabash's, but I think there's enough room for them to be separate entities. Thoughts?
<<<

I wouldn't worry too much about Bobby. As "Tangled Web" #14 makes clear, the exhibition placing Crusher Hogan against all challengers was his last effort at saving his company from bankruptcy. He had to mortgage his house and borrow from loan sharks to get the money. Loosing his money to Spider-Man is strongly implied to have left him bankrupt and his wrestlers unemployed. Crusher could well have found a new employer.

			*	*	*

Sep 18, 2008 4:28 pm 
By newtron

Bobby from TW14 is problematic because he would have to be working at the same time as Monty Caabash. The fight with Hogan that ruins Bobby is shown in SMWGP 1, and it is made clear that Monty is in charge of the league that put on this competition. That's why I think Bobby must be some kind of manager or agent for the wrestlers themselves, not the league.

Benny could be Ben Urich, yeah. For some reason that hadn't crossed my mind.

The FF stuff might be tricky from the sounds of things. The Giganto I meant is the Atlantean one -- it looks like a giant whale. Here's a pic from SMWGP for you to confirm that this is, in fact, that Giganto:


Here's the green monster the FF fights earlier in issue 2. Recognize him from anything?


So, if Giganto appears in FF 4, the Mole Man thing has to be before that. Is that a possibility based on previous Mole Man appearances, or do we have to posit a previously unknown attack by him? Obviously I'd prefer not to have to do that.

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Sep 18, 2008 6:02 pm 
By Enda80

I get the sinking feeling that the writer's FF research stopped at looking at the cover to FF I#1, without realizing they worked out of Central City then and the cover did not accurately reflect the inside story.

			*	*	*

Sep 18, 2008 11:21 pm 
By Col_Fury
Director

FF aside, I don't see Maxie Shiffman as a problem in this case. He wasn't important to the focus of the story being told in this mini, therefore he wasn't mentioned in this mini.

-Daron Jensen

			*	*	*

Sep 19, 2008 12:34 pm 
By dimadick

newtron wrote:
>>>
The Giganto I meant is the Atlantean one -- it looks like a giant whale. Here's a pic from SMWGP for you to confirm that this is, in fact, that Giganto:
<<<

Yep, close enough to the creature in Fantastic Four #4. Perhaps close enough to give Namor a behind-the-scenes appearance as he controlled the creature at the time. 


newtron wrote:
>>>
Here's the green monster the FF fights earlier in issue 2. Recognize him from anything?
<<<

The fin on his head makes him look a bit like the "Monster from Mars" the Four faced in "Fantastic Four" vol. 1 #3 (March, 1962). Only it was colored orange. See: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/mirac ... tm#Monster

That Monster was burned by the Human Torch. This battle was the first one in which the Four were wearing "blue and black jumpsuits" designed by Susan. I notice Reed is wearing it in the picture you posted and the fin has caught fire. Close enough? 

newtron wrote:
>>>
So, if Giganto appears in FF 4, the Mole Man thing has to be before that. Is that a possibility based on previous Mole Man appearances, or do we have to posit a previously unknown attack by him? Obviously I'd prefer not to have to do that.
<<<

I think Enda has figured this one out.

			*	*	*

Sep 19, 2008 1:51 pm 
By newtron

Good call on the Monster from Mars, I'd say that's definitely it. We can chalk the colouring difference up to artistic license/mistake.

Even though Enda is most likely correct about the real-world reason the Mole man mistake is in there, don't we have to come up with a believable enough in-world reason? My suggestions would be that the guy at the Bugle that says the FF "just saved the city" is not from NYC, but actually from Central City and visiting for some reason. It would only be natural for him to refer to Central City as "the city".

I'll try to take a peek at the relevant FF issues this weekend and work out a chronology for the FF, Giganto, the Monster from Mars, and possibly Namor BTS and Miracle Man BTS.

So...all problems solved? I almost hate to ask, but does it make sense for this part of Peter Parker's life to coincide with this period in the FF's career?

the spider-man project: http://spiderman.whiskeyclone.net

			*	*	*

Sep 19, 2008 4:28 pm 
By Enda80

I refer you to Marvel Saga, which had a section called Continuity Corner on the back page which related events in unrelated series to each other. Marvel Saga#2-3, as I recall, covered the Miracle Man's debut, and presented the famed spider bit as happening just around then. (Of course, Continuity Corner's conclusions later got denied by sundry later developments; for example, many of Doctor Strange's early published adventures and his origin got set by CC as around FF I#1 and its immediate subsequent issues, but the Lost Generation has Doctor Strange and his adventures before Strange Tales I#123 when he met Thor taking place before FF I#1).

			*	*	*

Sep 21, 2008 7:59 am 
By Enda80

The Miracle Man had metahuman hypnotic abilities, therefore the discrepancy in the entity's appearance could refer to that (the Miracle Man's illusion). 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Man#cite_ref-2
FF I#138 has the Torch give a conflicting recap of the first Miracle Man encounter. However this impacts that I do not know.

			*	*	*

Thread 20

Subject: DARING MYSTERY COMICS #2/5

Sep 29, 2008 10:38 pm 
By wolframbane

Here is my review of DARING MYSTERY COMICS #2/5, the Mister E story which was reprinted in TWELVE #0.5/3

DARING MYSTERY COMICS #2/5
February 1940
"Who in Reality is Mr. 'E'?" (10 pages)

Characters: 
MISTER E (Victor Jay; note his real name of Victor J. Goldstein was revealed in TWELVE 3; not to be confused with MISTER E II from M/SPT2 9)
VAMPIRE (not to be confused with VAMPIRE II (Dr. Togu) from ALL-WINNERS COMICS 5/2 or VAMPIRE III (Deke Wainscroft, also known as Vampire Killer) from P:POV 1)
Betty Snead, J. P. Snead

(1:2-10:2) Wealthy sportsman Victor Jay investigates the seemingly unrelated deaths of four businessmen during the past few weeks as the mystery man Mister E. He discovers that all four were silent partners with the Snead Oil Company, and were murdered by his old archenemy the Vampire, who had forced them to sign over their financial holdings and then murdered them with a gas that caused their hearts to explode. After abducting Betty Snead, the Vampire forces her father, oil tycoon J. P. Snead, to sign over complete control of his company. Mister E intervenes before the Vampire can kill them, allowing the Sneads to escape with the contract, and the masked men both retreat with the arrival of the police. 
Note: Snead delivers the money "by Friday midnight" and thought Betty was visiting her aunt "for the weekend". Full moon. If this story occurs during the publication date of February 1940, I would suggest Friday February 23, a Friday which is the first of three nights of the full moon.

(10:3-10:5) Vicotr Jay read the newspaper of the event. Snead and his daughter tell their friend Victor Jay of Mister E, while at his secret laboratory, the Vampire plots his vengeance .
Note: The newspaper mentions the events "last night", this is probably Saturday February 24.

MISTER E./VICTOR J. GOLDSTEIN/VICTOR JAY 
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 2/5
TWELVE 3 (7:4-7:5)-FB
TWELVE 3 (6:2)-FB
TWELVE 1
...

VAMPIRE/
DARING MYSTERY COMICS 2/5

